2015-06-01T00:00:38Z pillton: Ignoring :preserve for the time being, changing from :upcase to :downcase should not break anything.
2015-06-01T00:00:41Z pjb: Having the source in all upcase works with :upcase, :preserve and :inverte. Having the source in all lowcase works only with :upcase.
2015-06-01T00:00:52Z pjb: Therefore lisp sources should be written in all upcase preferably.
2015-06-01T00:01:06Z pjb: pillton: yes, it will break CL symbols.
2015-06-01T00:01:23Z pillton: Does the standard say they should be upper case?
2015-06-01T00:01:33Z pjb: :downcase must be the most impractical readtable case for CL sources.
2015-06-01T00:01:42Z pjb: 23.1.2.1 Examples of Effect of Readtable Case on the Lisp Reader
2015-06-01T00:01:57Z pjb: And yes, the standard specifies the case of the standard CL package names and symbol names.
2015-06-01T00:02:17Z pjb: (that's why modern modes are not conforming and must be avoided and ignored).
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2015-06-01T00:05:43Z pjb: pillton: using a few utility functions like alexandria:symbolicate (IIRC, they have corrected the gross bug then had with *print-case*) seems to be to be much preferable than having one more read macro.
2015-06-01T00:06:03Z pjb: s/to be to/to me to/
2015-06-01T00:06:24Z pillton: Ok. So if the standard dictates :upcase then that changes things.
2015-06-01T00:06:33Z pillton: I was unaware of that.
2015-06-01T00:06:49Z pjb: You can safely use "CAR".
2015-06-01T00:07:26Z pillton: clhs: standard readtable
2015-06-01T00:07:37Z pillton: How do you look up the glossary?
2015-06-01T00:08:40Z pjb: Using the glossary index: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_a.htm
2015-06-01T00:08:58Z pillton: pjb: I meant with the bot clhs.
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2015-06-01T00:09:44Z Adlai: you could try using http://l1sp.org/cl/*readtable*
2015-06-01T00:09:47Z pillton: pjb: Thanks. I was unaware of the definitions standard syntax and standard readtable.
2015-06-01T00:11:21Z pillton: pjb: Thanks for your opinion on the reader macro too. I was unsure about it so I thought I'd ask.
2015-06-01T00:16:45Z pjb: pillton: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_dada.htm
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2015-06-01T00:18:00Z pillton: Even better. Cheers.
2015-06-01T00:18:56Z pjb: pillton: now, of course, you may have fun and publish a nice utility on quicklisp as (defpackage "Nice" (:use "CL") (:export "VeryNiceFunction" "something" "theOther")) :-)
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2015-06-01T00:19:46Z pillton: I have no interest in doing that. :)
2015-06-01T00:19:58Z pjb: so people would be left with the choice of (|Nice|:|VeryNiceFunction| |Nice|:|theOther|) or (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :preserve) (Nice:VeryNiceFunction Nice:theOther) (SETF (READTABLE-CASE *READTABLE*) :UPCASE) ;-)
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2015-06-01T00:20:42Z pjb: or worse, have symbols similar to CL but in lowercase that you'd want to use at the same time as CL.
2015-06-01T00:21:06Z pillton: Oh dear. Don't say that out loud.
2015-06-01T00:21:10Z pjb: (IF (equal (CAR car) mycar) if uf)
2015-06-01T00:22:11Z pillton: The reason I started thinking about this was that I was asked to explain why people define packages differently.
2015-06-01T00:22:25Z pillton: I didn't have a good answer so I thought about what the most correct way is.
2015-06-01T00:23:00Z Zhivago: Just get rid of all of that case mangling nonsense. :)
2015-06-01T00:23:00Z pillton: ...from a library writers point of view.
2015-06-01T00:23:15Z Zhivago: It's not like we're stuck with terminals that can't do both, these days.
2015-06-01T00:23:18Z pillton: Zhivago: Amen.
2015-06-01T00:23:24Z pjb: It doesn't make any difference, once the defpackage form is compiled, since this macro should replace all the string designators by strings while compiling anyways.
2015-06-01T00:24:00Z pjb: Zhivago: terminals can do both, but apparently programmers can't do uppercase anymore.  Everybody seems to be very allergic to uppercase.
2015-06-01T00:24:20Z pillton: pjb: It makes a difference to the user though. A library writer shouldn't impose a view on the user.
2015-06-01T00:24:51Z pjb: pillton: the convention is that all symbols are uppercase. There's no imposition made by writing the defpackage form as you wish.
2015-06-01T00:25:17Z pjb: I use strings to avoid the problem altogether: the user may use whatever readtable-case he wants.
2015-06-01T00:27:14Z pillton: In my opinion that choice impacts the choice the user has over the readtable case. i.e. The most convenient way to use your library is to use the readtable case that you use.
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2015-06-01T00:30:50Z pjb: There's no user choice about it indeed.  It's the program author who decides what case his symbols are.  You can set the readtable in each of your source files (you do, eg. when enabling reader macros).
2015-06-01T00:31:18Z pjb: Symbols are used to interface with the external world too, so you cannot change their case at random in general. (FFI and others).
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2015-06-01T00:34:34Z pjb: If you wanted to allow the user of your code to change the case of your symbols, you would have to be careful to escape all the symbols used externally (FFI, file formats, protocols, etc).
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2015-06-01T00:39:51Z Zhivago: I think that Java programmers show the lie in that.
2015-06-01T00:40:09Z Zhivago: Modern programmers areQuiteAdeptAtUsingCapitals. :)
2015-06-01T00:40:19Z pjb: Java programmers are probably worse than Cobol programmers.
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2015-06-01T00:41:04Z pjb: Zhivago: I don't have problems with case sentivity, again, being a C, Modula-2 programme much more than a Pascal programmer.
2015-06-01T00:41:24Z Zhivago: Yeah. It's this quasi-case-insensitivity that's the root of the evil.
2015-06-01T00:42:02Z pjb: That's why I would prefer to publish my sources in all upcase, so you could use readtable-case :preserve.
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2015-06-01T00:44:42Z pillton: Interesting.
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2015-06-01T00:53:38Z pjb: In my ~/quicklisp there are 123,501 lines with occurences of |.*| in lisp files, over 10,250,354 LoC.
2015-06-01T00:54:39Z pillton: I'm sure if you changed readtable case lots of things would break.
2015-06-01T00:54:51Z pillton: So that number is really a lower bound.
2015-06-01T00:55:03Z skrue: It would be great to use the lisp repl as a shell. Are there any projects for that? Or adding a GUI to it.. and replace the OS
2015-06-01T00:55:22Z pjb: skrue: several things.
2015-06-01T00:55:40Z pjb: http://www.clisp.org/clash.html
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2015-06-01T00:56:11Z pjb: You can use: chsh /usr/bin/ccl  or your favorite implementation, once you've added its path to /etc/shells
2015-06-01T00:56:35Z pjb: skrue: have a look at http://www.informatimago.com/linux/emacs-on-user-mode-linux.html
2015-06-01T00:56:41Z pjb: You can do the same with a CL implementation.
2015-06-01T00:57:18Z skrue: thanks
2015-06-01T00:57:39Z pjb: also check http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=summary&p=public/lep ; but it's not as usable as emacs-on-user-mode-linux yet.
2015-06-01T01:01:12Z pjb: skrue: also have a look at Mezzano and Movitz.
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2015-06-01T02:33:19Z drmeister: A question about packages and symbols...
2015-06-01T02:33:38Z drmeister: The Clasp bootstrapping compiler is in the package :CMP
2015-06-01T02:34:46Z drmeister: I'm interfacing beach's Cleavir compiler into Clasp and I've created a couple of packages that have similar names to Cleavir packages and I'm putting functions into those packages.
2015-06-01T02:35:01Z drmeister: These functions use a lot of functions that are currently internal to :CMP
2015-06-01T02:36:36Z drmeister: Should I export these symbols from the :CMP package so that I can invoke them like (cmp:irc-intrinsic ...)   or should I have the new compiler code use them as internal symbols (cmp::irc-intrinsic ...)?
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2015-06-01T02:37:13Z drmeister: There is quite a few of them
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2015-06-01T02:39:12Z nyef: Or should you split out a new package for these functions?
2015-06-01T02:39:28Z drmeister: How would I do that?
2015-06-01T02:39:33Z drmeister: What would that constitute?
2015-06-01T02:40:01Z nyef: Define the new package, have it export all of the functions, have both CMP and the other package USE them.
2015-06-01T02:40:12Z nyef: Err... s/them/it/.
2015-06-01T02:41:11Z nyef: If you want to retrofit it to a running instance instead of rebuilding from scratch it gets a little more complex, though.
2015-06-01T02:41:35Z drmeister: Do you mean create a new package (lets say I call it :CLEAVIR-CMP), import the symbols that I need from :CMP into :CLEAVIR-CMP and have my new code use :CLEAVIR-CMP?
2015-06-01T02:43:06Z drmeister: Reading what you said and thinking..
2015-06-01T02:43:10Z nyef: Maybe :CMP-INTRINSICS or something, but you'd have both :CMP and :CLEAVER USE the package, making it clear that the shared code is used by both, but doesn't depend on either?
2015-06-01T02:43:28Z drmeister: I see.
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2015-06-01T02:43:55Z drmeister: That's a lot of organizing... thinking...
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2015-06-01T02:45:06Z drmeister: Maybe not.
2015-06-01T02:45:08Z nyef: It's the sort of organizing that I try to do as a matter of course.
2015-06-01T02:45:24Z drmeister: I haven't been that careful.
2015-06-01T02:45:37Z drmeister: I'm paying for the sins of my past.
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2015-06-01T02:46:08Z nyef: You could still do the package games, and have it basically work, as long as you don't package-lock the new package.
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2015-06-01T02:46:53Z drmeister: I wrote the bootstrapping compiler and now I realize that I can reuse a lot of its code to generate code directed by Cleavir output.
2015-06-01T02:50:04Z drmeister: I see what you are saying though.  The bootstrapping compiler is a small amount of code that uses a lot of intrinsics that interact with and wrap the LLVM library.
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2015-06-01T02:52:00Z drmeister: I should identify all of those intrinsics and export them.
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2015-06-01T03:06:20Z drmeister: Got 'em - there's like 90 of them.  This is not a clean package.
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2015-06-01T03:07:18Z drmeister: What do you do in Common Lisp if you have a function name and you want to give it a new name and then change everywhere where you called that function?
2015-06-01T03:07:24Z drmeister: sed?
2015-06-01T03:07:32Z drmeister: Or is there a better way.
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2015-06-01T03:11:23Z nyef: grep, M-x query-replace ?
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2015-06-01T03:14:04Z drmeister: Ok, so text substitution.  There's nothing that parses Common Lisp and substitutes names in a language aware way.   So I have to be careful with s/irc-add/irc-+/   if there is a function irc-add-signed  and irc-add-unsigned.    That's what I thought.
2015-06-01T03:15:17Z nyef: Well, there might be a smarter setup out there, but nothing comes immediately to mind.
2015-06-01T03:15:21Z drmeister: I can do C++ language aware source-to-source translation within Clasp but it's tricky.  I was looking for something like that for CL, while being 99% sure that there was nothing like that.
2015-06-01T03:15:33Z drmeister: Got it, no problem.
2015-06-01T03:17:38Z drmeister: I'm going to avoid using packages.  While it's more work and more verbose to type things like (cmp:irc-intrinsic ...) rather than (use-package :cmp) (irc-intrinsic ...)   - it's easier to search for and replace symbols like cmp:irc-intrinsic when they are prefixed with a package name.
2015-06-01T03:18:10Z drmeister: I wonder how people feel about that.
2015-06-01T03:18:34Z drmeister: Explicitly prefixing symbols with package names rather than using packages.
2015-06-01T03:19:06Z nyef: There are times when it is appropriate. It's the recommended style for using CLX, for example, to prefix the symbols with XLIB: instead of USEing the package.
2015-06-01T03:20:34Z drmeister: What about using package nicknames to shorten the prefix?  cl:list vs common-lisp:list
2015-06-01T03:20:37Z Zhivago: I generally prefer the explicit names, unless it's infrastructure like defgeneric, etc.
2015-06-01T03:20:54Z Zhivago: Sounds good to me.
2015-06-01T03:21:22Z drmeister: beach uses explicit names a lot - at first I thought it was too verbose but I'm appreciating them more as I work with them more.
2015-06-01T03:25:42Z drmeister: It's the package+symbol-name that means something.
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2015-06-01T03:39:26Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-06-01T03:39:34Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-06-01T03:40:44Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2015-06-01T03:49:31Z drmeister: Hi beach
2015-06-01T03:50:25Z drmeister: beach: Should I use those symbols as internal symbols or do you think it's appropriate to export them?
2015-06-01T03:50:53Z drmeister: That last question was regarding an email I sent you in the last hour.
2015-06-01T03:51:04Z beach: Hold on...
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2015-06-01T03:52:21Z drmeister: My reader was ignoring internal/external boundaries and all symbols could be accessed using single colon XXX:YYY notation.  It was a big free-for-all and I used symbols with complete disregard as to whether they were exported or not.
2015-06-01T03:52:29Z beach: drmeister: Either I should export them, or you should not use them.
2015-06-01T03:52:54Z beach: Give me a few minutes.
2015-06-01T03:52:55Z drmeister: Could you export them then?  I use them to annotate the graphs.
2015-06-01T03:53:18Z beach: The fact that you use them doesn't mean you should.  I need to check.  Hold on.
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2015-06-01T03:54:52Z drmeister: I allowed that bug in my reader to persist because it solved some bootstrapping issues that I had using the ECL code.  Last week I fixed the bug in the reader and then I had a whole bunch of symbols that I had to track down and export at appropriate times.  It was a headache.
2015-06-01T03:54:54Z beach: I should definitely export LABEL.
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2015-06-01T03:55:06Z drmeister: That's the one I use the most.
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2015-06-01T03:55:49Z drmeister: I got clasp to compile again as well as ASDF and Slime and now I'm tackling Cleavir.
2015-06-01T03:56:05Z drmeister: I'd like to show the folks up in Boston Cleavir generated graphs.
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2015-06-01T03:57:48Z beach: drmeister: All three that you mentioned are now exported.
2015-06-01T03:57:57Z drmeister: Hurray!
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2015-06-01T03:59:34Z beach: I forgot to export them, because I never needed to customize the graphviz drawing for SICL.
2015-06-01T03:59:49Z beach: So I didn't notice that they weren't exported.
2015-06-01T04:02:10Z drmeister: No problem.
2015-06-01T04:02:45Z drmeister: It wasn't a problem until my reader started honoring internal/external symbols properly.
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2015-06-01T04:02:54Z beach: Right.
2015-06-01T04:03:13Z drmeister: And then the shite hit the fan.
2015-06-01T04:03:37Z beach: Understandable.
2015-06-01T04:03:53Z drmeister: How's type inference going?
2015-06-01T04:03:58Z drmeister ducks
2015-06-01T04:04:06Z beach: I am not working on type inference at the moment.
2015-06-01T04:04:13Z drmeister: What are you working on?
2015-06-01T04:04:15Z beach: I am waiting for you to give me reasons to.
2015-06-01T04:04:28Z beach: I am working on bootstrapping still.
2015-06-01T04:05:23Z drmeister: I figured you wouldn't be working on it until I started making requests again. :-)
2015-06-01T04:05:51Z beach: Yes, it's an excellent opportunity to make progress on my own system. :)
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2015-06-01T04:06:14Z drmeister: Can you bootstrap without being able to generate code?
2015-06-01T04:06:20Z beach: Sure.
2015-06-01T04:06:32Z beach: I can run a full SICL environment inside a host Common Lisp.
2015-06-01T04:06:45Z drmeister: Right.
2015-06-01T04:06:58Z beach: The host compiler generates the native code for me.
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2015-06-01T04:07:58Z drmeister: How far will that take you to bootstrapping outside of a host Common Lisp?
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2015-06-01T04:08:55Z beach: I am hoping I will have a complete isomorphic graph of SICL objects inside the host.  Then I "just" need to traverse that graph and write the target version of it to a file.
2015-06-01T04:09:41Z beach: But I will probably put off the last step as long as possible, because the minute I have a native system, I lose all my development tools.
2015-06-01T04:09:48Z beach: So I might work on those first.
2015-06-01T04:09:59Z beach: SLIME interface, ASDF, debugger, etc.
2015-06-01T04:10:06Z drmeister: Yep.
2015-06-01T04:11:51Z drmeister: I'm just trying to get Clasp returned to the point where I can generate code using Cleavir so I can show folks in Boston where I'm going with this.
2015-06-01T04:12:20Z beach: That ought to be possible now, right?
2015-06-01T04:12:37Z beach: You just need to recover from those bugs.
2015-06-01T04:12:44Z drmeister: Without this hiccup involving the reader. Yes.
2015-06-01T04:13:28Z drmeister: I have so much to do in the next month - it's crazy.
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2015-06-01T04:14:10Z beach: Sorry to hear that.  Deadlines coming up?
2015-06-01T04:14:10Z drmeister: I hope to be able to work on generating better code in July.
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2015-06-01T04:14:14Z drmeister: Yes.
2015-06-01T04:14:46Z drmeister: So I'll start bugging you about type inference around then - how does that sound?
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2015-06-01T04:15:15Z beach: Sounds great.
2015-06-01T04:16:15Z drmeister: Ok. Thanks.  I'm going to go for a walk and get a late dinner. I'm still in California and I'm flying back to Philadelphia tomorrow.
2015-06-01T04:16:47Z drmeister: I'll talk to you later.
2015-06-01T04:17:11Z beach: OK.
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2015-06-01T04:22:59Z emaczen`: With cl-who, how can I get html expansions of the form <tag-name text> </tag-name> ?
2015-06-01T04:24:02Z emaczen`: All I have done in the past is attributes such as (:tagname :attribute "value") which exapands too <tagname attribute=value></attribute>
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2015-06-01T04:28:01Z emaczen`: oops that closing tag should be </tagname>
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2015-06-01T04:52:16Z emaczen`: Does my question make sense?
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2015-06-01T04:54:34Z beach: It makes sense to me.  I just don't know the answer.
2015-06-01T04:55:32Z pinterface: emaczen`: (:tagname :attribute t) should do what you want.
2015-06-01T04:55:36Z pinterface: see http://weitz.de/cl-who/#syntax
2015-06-01T04:55:52Z emaczen`: So I just tinkered long enough to find a solution... If you just type in the raw html string it should work...
2015-06-01T04:56:11Z emaczen`: pinterface: I tried that and also tried switching the 'html-mode' from :xml to :sgml
2015-06-01T04:59:32Z emaczen`: pinterface: Ok, that works and I am just not using (with-html-output-to-string) -- I am accidentally using ps-html
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2015-06-01T05:04:01Z pinterface facepalms at parenscript not using cl-who to generate html from cl-who style markup.
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2015-06-01T05:21:11Z drmeister: beach: Are you still online?
2015-06-01T05:21:15Z drmeister: Could you export cleavir-generate-ast:convert-special
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2015-06-01T05:25:22Z drmeister: There are some more - I'll email you
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2015-06-01T05:32:44Z beach: I am here.
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2015-06-01T05:41:43Z oleo_: moring beach
2015-06-01T05:41:47Z oleo_: morning all
2015-06-01T05:41:53Z oleo_: ups sorry*
2015-06-01T05:41:53Z beach: Hello oleo_.
2015-06-01T05:42:09Z oleo_: i just woke up meh
2015-06-01T05:42:12Z beach: drmeister: Exported cleavir-generate-ast:convert-special as requested.
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2015-06-01T05:42:33Z drmeister: A few more coming.
2015-06-01T05:42:38Z drmeister: beach^
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2015-06-01T05:46:31Z oleo_: anyway till laters bye!
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2015-06-01T05:51:32Z drmeister: beach: I just sent some more symbols and I'm finding a few more
2015-06-01T05:52:13Z beach: OK, thanks.
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2015-06-01T05:57:25Z beach: drmeister: You got it.
2015-06-01T05:57:26Z drmeister: This is tedious - thank goodness for slime.  I can edit the code and from sldb I can retry compilation.
2015-06-01T05:57:39Z Shinmera: Good morning, everyone.
2015-06-01T05:58:03Z beach: Hello Shinmera.
2015-06-01T05:58:58Z beach: drmeister: In what way do you edit the code?
2015-06-01T05:59:16Z drmeister: For now I'm just converting the cleavir symbols to :: access and when I grab the new sicl code I'll convert them back to : access.
2015-06-01T05:59:39Z beach: drmeister: SBCL has a restart "Use the symbol anyway" or something like that.
2015-06-01T05:59:43Z beach: It is quite useful.
2015-06-01T05:59:44Z Shinmera: On today's menu: Making the final step for Qtools' deployment extensions. Once I got that in, creating a binary for a Qt project will be just a single ASDF command, which automatically preps your image properly and gathers the necessary shared object libraries for you, so you can just zip a folder and be done with it.
2015-06-01T05:59:59Z drmeister: Symbols that I define I'm exporting them, evaluating the export and then recompiling.
2015-06-01T06:00:13Z drmeister: I'm adding them to the defpackage form
2015-06-01T06:00:23Z drmeister: the (:export ...) part
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2015-06-01T06:03:02Z beach: drmeister: Monday mornings are crazy around here.  I need to go.  If you have more symbols you need exported, send me an email.
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2015-06-01T06:04:13Z drmeister: I'm compiling one - I have 4 more symbols so far.
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2015-06-01T06:36:19Z jackdaniel: o/
2015-06-01T06:37:12Z tuturto: \o
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2015-06-01T07:00:30Z kami: Good morning.
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2015-06-01T08:38:39Z schjetne: Any Postmodernists here? I'm a bit stuck on how to specify constraints (like UNIQUE) for DAO class slots.
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2015-06-01T08:43:38Z jackdaniel /win 14
2015-06-01T08:43:45Z jackdaniel: erm
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2015-06-01T08:47:23Z dim: schjetne: my advice is to avoid defining your schema at this level, use DDL (Data DEfinition Language, part of SQL) for that
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2015-06-01T08:48:14Z dim: rationale (quick): your relational model is here to serve multiple apps (dashboards, transactional, acounting, etc) and your object model is serving one of those only (different code paths)
2015-06-01T08:48:15Z jdz: and ORMs are creating more problems than they're solving, anyway
2015-06-01T08:48:44Z dim: mostly because the R in ORM should be the Resulset and most of them are targeting the Relation instead
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2015-06-01T08:49:22Z dim: see JOOQ (Java) or POMM (PHP) for examples where they properly target the Resulset and allow full SQL
2015-06-01T08:49:39Z dim: Postmodern is a very good citizen there, with its DAO that allows to do just that too
2015-06-01T08:50:06Z dim: it just allows a tad too much to be done at the CL side of things IMNSHO
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2015-06-01T08:51:24Z schjetne: dim: thanks
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2015-06-01T08:54:38Z jdz: i seem to remember the database abstraction in .net is also based on "resultset"
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2015-06-01T10:40:54Z loz: greetings, fellows
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2015-06-01T10:41:42Z loz: any usable xml library around?
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2015-06-01T10:43:34Z splittist: loz: I usually start my research on things like that at quickdocs.org . If nothing else it gives a sense of some of the landmarks when exploring further.
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2015-06-01T10:44:16Z Shinmera: loz: define "usable".
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2015-06-01T10:46:23Z loz: Shinmera: easy to start to use, supports parsing and generating, and can handle xml streams
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2015-06-01T10:48:51Z Shinmera: What does it mean to "handle xml streams"? XML is a document format, not a streaming format.
2015-06-01T10:49:12Z dim: I've used cxml and I liked it, see https://github.com/dimitri/pubnames which is a very small project (used to import data for a blog post)
2015-06-01T10:49:36Z p_l: Shinmera: .NET and Java both use similar "stream" abstraction for I/O as Lisp
2015-06-01T10:49:45Z dim: Shinmera: SAX based approach where you can process the XML without having it all in memory
2015-06-01T10:49:46Z p_l: so I guess that's the source
2015-06-01T10:49:54Z p_l: and then there's SAX, too
2015-06-01T10:50:02Z p_l: though I prefer STP
2015-06-01T10:50:21Z p_l: not sure how well it does on not making DOM, though
2015-06-01T10:51:32Z Shinmera: Hmm. Might be worth adding such a feature to Plump some day.
2015-06-01T10:51:37Z Shinmera: Right now it would require hackery.
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2015-06-01T10:58:49Z loz: Shinmera: basically xmpp is streaming xml
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2015-06-01T11:01:09Z splittist: loz: is that an example or are you looking for something like https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-xmpp/ ?
2015-06-01T11:01:18Z p_l: loz: XMPP is not streaming XML - it's just a consecutive series of XML documents exchanged through basic TCP protocol :)
2015-06-01T11:01:47Z loz: splittist: i'm actually using cl-xmpp for xmpp bot
2015-06-01T11:01:55Z splittist: oh (:
2015-06-01T11:02:39Z Shinmera: loz: If you want something that can handle what XMPP does then any parser will do, as --as p_l already said-- it's just consecutive documents.
2015-06-01T11:02:51Z loz: p_l: well, i suppose that is what they call xml stream)
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2015-06-01T11:03:27Z dim: sometimes it's all nested into a top-level node
2015-06-01T11:03:35Z dim: as in the openstreetmap exports
2015-06-01T11:03:58Z dim: so you actually want to parse independant sub-documents, but you receive them as a big document containing them, and then SAX is quite useful
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2015-06-01T11:04:03Z dim: I don't know about STP tho
2015-06-01T11:04:29Z Shinmera: In any case, maybe Plump is for you, maybe not. http://shinmera.github.io/plump/
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2015-06-01T11:05:26Z loz: Shinmera: thanks, i'll check it out later
2015-06-01T11:05:57Z loz: btw there is no plump in search results for "xml" on quickdocks
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2015-06-01T11:06:56Z Shinmera: probably because its description field says "X/HTML".
2015-06-01T11:09:38Z loz: yep, you may consider changing it to something like "xhtml/html/xml"
2015-06-01T11:10:13Z Shinmera shakes his fist at search engines for not being smart enough to understand his shorthands.
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2015-06-01T11:13:31Z loz imagined domain to test drakma error behaviour, instead got (drakma:http-request "http://www.non-existent.com") -> "Welcome and thanks for stopping by. "
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2015-06-01T11:14:21Z otwieracz: Nowadays it's hard to imagine non-existant domain.
2015-06-01T11:14:51Z Shinmera: Not really.
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2015-06-01T11:15:15Z loz: some random keystrokes did the job :)
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2015-06-01T11:18:07Z tuturto: http://www.invalid.example.com/ should always be invalid
2015-06-01T11:22:54Z loz: is there anything like last for vectors?
2015-06-01T11:23:05Z loz: or even sequences?
2015-06-01T11:24:14Z Shinmera: (elt (reverse sequence) 0) :^)
2015-06-01T11:24:22Z Shinmera: ((please don't))
2015-06-01T11:25:37Z loz: alexandria:last-elt, this is it)
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2015-06-01T11:58:17Z pjb: drmeister: you can use walk-sexps, map-sexps, replace-sexps: https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/emacs/blob/master/pjb-sources.el#L1258
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2015-06-01T12:01:50Z pjb: drmeister: it could be done directly in CL at the sexp level, if you used an emacs written in CL and didn't care about characters in the "file", but only edited the sexp, like in the Interlisp environment.  You can recreate something similar in CL, merging ibcl and sedit http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/  http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/sedit/
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2015-06-01T12:04:15Z pjb: drmeister: even sexp based edition is somewhat problematic in CL, because you need basically to load the code you want to edit into the editor, since you need it to read the code! (packages, reader macros, compilation-time effects, etc).  image based development is quite different from external text file based development.
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2015-06-01T12:11:18Z splittist: pjb: surely your reimplementation of MasterScope is coming soon  (:
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2015-06-01T12:16:53Z schjetne goes to read about MasterScope
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2015-06-01T12:24:11Z schjetne: That sounds really useful
2015-06-01T12:24:19Z schjetne: http://larry.masinter.net/interlisp-ieee.pdf
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2015-06-01T12:29:38Z Xach: there's a program called "cscope" for c development that sounds very similar
2015-06-01T12:29:45Z Xach: I don't know which inspired which
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2015-06-01T12:32:12Z splittist: MasterScope pre-dates cscope, if one is to believe http://cscope.sourceforge.net/history.html
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2015-06-01T12:36:07Z pjb: splittist: lisp stuff always pre-dates copier's stuff. </smug>
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2015-06-01T12:40:27Z Xach: I would love to know more about the relationship. I have not found any cscope information that says "this was inspired by masterscope."
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2015-06-01T12:48:25Z loz: can i somehow specify enumeration of types to check-type macro?
2015-06-01T12:48:35Z pjb: with the member type.
2015-06-01T12:48:38Z loz: for example i want x to be either fixnum or nil
2015-06-01T12:48:49Z pjb: with the or type.
2015-06-01T12:48:57Z pjb: (check-type x (or fixnum null))
2015-06-01T12:49:19Z loz: pjb: nice, thank you :)
2015-06-01T12:49:22Z pjb: (check-type a (member 0 42 nil hello))
2015-06-01T12:49:50Z loz: so it can handle even values, isn't it?
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2015-06-01T12:50:16Z pjb: yes, with member, you can designate types containing arbitrary sets of values.
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2015-06-01T12:53:12Z loz: is this what other languages use singleton-types for?
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2015-06-01T12:54:21Z pjb: You can indeed use (member 42), and assume that (deftype nil () '(member)).
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2015-06-01T13:03:33Z loz: pjb: can i also check that x is a function with specified number of arguments?)
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2015-06-01T13:18:38Z Shinmera: Hooray, deployment finally works easily! https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TmpNeQ==
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2015-06-01T13:21:07Z nyef: Shinmera: Congratulations!
2015-06-01T13:21:33Z Shinmera: Also: Quickloading Qtools will now automatically attempt to build smokegen and smokeqt if it's not already provided by the system.
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2015-06-01T13:22:02Z Shinmera: That took way more work than I thought/hoped it would.
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2015-06-01T13:26:55Z Shinmera: Coincidentally, does someone know why even if I do (locally (declare (sb-ext:muffle-conditions style-warning)) ..) around my foreign library loads, it still prints out a load of style-warning notes about undefined aliens to *error-output*?
2015-06-01T13:27:29Z Shinmera: Binding *error-output* to an empty broadcast-stream does suppress it of course, but I'd rather just muffle the conditions properly.
2015-06-01T13:27:49Z loz: Shinmera: good job!
2015-06-01T13:28:10Z pjb: loz: you can denote a type for such a function, but typep is not guaranted to be able to verify it.
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2015-06-01T13:29:50Z pjb: typep doesn't take function types.
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2015-06-01T13:30:06Z pjb: so it's guaranteed to fail to verify them actually.
2015-06-01T13:30:53Z pjb: loz: therefore the answer to your question is: no.
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2015-06-01T13:31:09Z loz: i see
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2015-06-01T13:32:58Z oleo: hello
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2015-06-01T13:59:04Z scymtym: Shinmera: the declaration controls the compiler. if your warning is signaled at runtime (not sure if that is the case in your scenario), try binding SB-EXT:*MUFFLED-WARNINGS*. note that it wants a type specifier, not a list of types. see http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Customization-Hooks-for-Users and maybe http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/sbcl/sbcl-2015-05.txt.
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2015-06-01T14:17:59Z nyef: ... Is the type of truth really only specifiable in terms of the negation of false?
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2015-06-01T14:18:35Z nyef: (That is, is a boolean true value only representable with a specifier of the form (NOT NULL) or similar?)
2015-06-01T14:18:48Z Zhivago: There is only one empty set. :)
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2015-06-01T14:19:14Z Zhivago: But you could certainly specify it in other terms.
2015-06-01T14:19:26Z Zhivago: A selector function, for example.
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2015-06-01T14:19:54Z nyef: ... (SATISFIES IDENTITY)?
2015-06-01T14:20:06Z Zhivago: (lambda (true false) true) for true, and (lambda (true false) false) for false. :)
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2015-06-01T14:20:11Z nyef: That feels like a horrible pun.
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2015-06-01T14:20:34Z nyef: Zhivago: I'm talking about something suitable for TYPEP here. d-:
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2015-06-01T14:28:15Z devon: (list (lisp-implementation-type) (defstruct struct slot) (arglist '(setf struct-slot))) => ("Clozure Common Lisp" STRUCT (#:VALUE2 STRUCT)) ; but (value place) seems backwards, any idea why?
2015-06-01T14:29:47Z nyef: clhs 5.1.2.9
2015-06-01T14:29:48Z specbot: Other Compound Forms as Places: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_abi.htm
2015-06-01T14:30:00Z nyef: That would be why.
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2015-06-01T14:31:01Z nyef: Note that, specifically, this allows your places to use &OPTIONAL, &REST, and &KEY parameters.
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2015-06-01T14:33:54Z devon: nyef: thx, that makes sense.
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2015-06-01T14:38:01Z pjb: nyef: I guess we don't have much choice here, given that it's how true is defined by Common Lisp.
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2015-06-01T14:43:55Z jaimef: H4ns: poke
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2015-06-01T14:45:15Z H4ns: jaimef: sup
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2015-06-01T14:46:33Z jaimef: H4ns: any ipv6 equivalent for hunchentoot:real-remote-addr? did not see anything in the api
2015-06-01T14:47:59Z H4ns: jaimef: let me have a look.  i'd say that real-remote-addr should not be protocol specific, but i'm not sure.
2015-06-01T14:48:11Z jaimef: k
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2015-06-01T14:48:48Z jaimef: thanks
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2015-06-01T14:49:27Z H4ns: jaimef: it should be protocol agnostic.  how does it not work?
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2015-06-01T14:49:53Z jaimef: I get a string of the ipv4 address
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2015-06-01T14:50:25Z H4ns: what does the x-forwarded-for-header contain?
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2015-06-01T15:13:28Z Shinmera: scymtym: Ah, I see. I'll give that a shot, thanks.
2015-06-01T15:13:57Z jaimef: H4ns:  (format nil "{\"ip\":\"~A\",\"about\":\"/about\",\"The One True Editor\":\"Emacs\"}" (hunchentoot:real-remote-add hunchentoot:*request*))) is what http://jsonip.org is
2015-06-01T15:14:54Z H4ns: jaimef: you've los me
2015-06-01T15:14:58Z H4ns: lost
2015-06-01T15:15:17Z Shinmera: scymtym: That did the trick, thanks a bunch!
2015-06-01T15:15:25Z H4ns: jaimef: i would like to know what your proxy sends to your hunchentoot in the x-forwarded-for header.
2015-06-01T15:15:45Z jaimef: the ip address of the requester
2015-06-01T15:15:47Z jaimef: as a string
2015-06-01T15:15:56Z H4ns: the ipv6 address?
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2015-06-01T15:16:39Z jaimef: ahh, so what ever is sent is what is there. ok so this is a front end server issue. thanks
2015-06-01T15:16:42Z jaimef: no ipv4
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2015-06-01T15:17:19Z H4ns: right.  look at the source, it is easy to understand what is going on, i'd say
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2015-06-01T15:21:40Z jaimef: thanks for fixing jaimef
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2015-06-01T15:58:56Z jasom: If I want to generate some PDF tables in lisp, is there anything better than tt?
2015-06-01T15:59:22Z jasom: And for tt, I mean cl-typesetting
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2015-06-01T15:59:34Z jasom: It doesn't seem to support e.g. unicode characters
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2015-06-01T16:02:43Z Xach: i used cl-pdf last time, but i didn't generate anything outside of latin-1
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2015-06-01T16:04:25Z H4ns: jasom: i've had great success using cxml to generate fop and then using apache-fop for typesetting
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2015-06-01T16:22:56Z digiorgi_: how can i use in a package, all unexported symbols of a package without having to write the ::? In others words a trick to use unexported symblols as exported ones.
2015-06-01T16:23:35Z White_Flame: you could iterate the symbols of the package and import them programmatically
2015-06-01T16:23:46Z White_Flame: or in-package that package for the time being?
2015-06-01T16:24:43Z digiorgi_: but if i do in-package, i will intern some symbols in that package.
2015-06-01T16:24:48Z White_Flame: right
2015-06-01T16:24:58Z digiorgi_: i want a separate unit-testing package (:
2015-06-01T16:25:59Z nyef: I use :IMPORT-FROM in my test-package DEFPACKAGE and name the extra symbols that I need. If there's more than a small handful then I'm doing something wrong.
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2015-06-01T16:33:46Z pjb: digiorgi: (in-package "THIS-PACKAGE") (import (let (ss) (do-symbols (s "OTHER-PACKAGE") (push s ss)) ss))
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2015-06-01T17:03:57Z Xach: luis: do you want to merge binghe's corman updates? i was thinking of doing it today otherwise
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2015-06-01T17:16:29Z luis: Xach: do you plan on doing anything besides clicking "merge"?
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2015-06-01T17:18:16Z luis: (e.g. were you thinking about cleaning up the commits or something?)
2015-06-01T17:20:50Z |3b| wonders if i still have any old corman trees around somewhere so i can try to figure out if that hash table bug is still there
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2015-06-01T17:57:18Z drmeister: Will a reader macro like [ with read-delimited list properly handle nested [...]?
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2015-06-01T17:59:00Z drmeister: read-delimited-list would use #\] as the terminating character.  Of course it does - right?  It's how the reader reads parentheses.
2015-06-01T17:59:13Z sellout-: drmeister: Yeah, that should work.
2015-06-01T17:59:14Z drmeister: Grr.  How the reader reads s-expressions.
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2015-06-01T18:04:27Z Xach: luis: no
2015-06-01T18:04:38Z Xach: luis: i was thinking about blogging about it
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2015-06-01T18:15:24Z rick-monster: hi anyone know if hu.dwim.stefil is still maintained?
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2015-06-01T18:20:10Z kami: rick-monster: yes, it is. I use it on current sbcl.
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2015-06-01T18:21:41Z kami: rick-monster: there is a fork called Fiasco, which you can find here: https://github.com/capitaomorte/fiasco
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2015-06-01T18:22:47Z rick-monster: I have a fix for bug affecting stefil, hu.dwim.stefil and fiasco on case-sensitive allegro and just trying to establish whether hu.dwim will look at a patch...
2015-06-01T18:24:09Z kami: rick-monster: I cannot speak for them, but I'm sure attila_lendvai will look at it
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2015-06-01T18:51:23Z rick-monster: hmmm - stefil's package-agnostic approach seems to work better for testing a large and messy codebase mostly residing in a single package...
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2015-06-01T19:21:50Z skrue: Xach: thanks for putting up the naggum archive
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2015-06-01T19:27:04Z Xach: no problem
2015-06-01T19:27:15Z Xach hopes to add more people soon
2015-06-01T19:28:13Z luis: rick-monster: you don't have to use Fiasco's define-test-package. It's just a helper.
2015-06-01T19:29:22Z luis: Xach: I'm unsure why this is version 3.02. I don't think there was a version 3.01 was there?
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2015-06-01T19:32:13Z Xach: luis: i don't know, sorry.
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2015-06-01T19:32:37Z Xach: luis: what made it be 3.02?
2015-06-01T19:32:46Z Xach: something from binghe?
2015-06-01T19:33:10Z luis: Yes.
2015-06-01T19:33:31Z Xach: luis: i think there was a 3.01 bugfix release years ago
2015-06-01T19:33:41Z Xach: luis: google suggests there was, anyway
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2015-06-01T19:33:46Z luis: oh, cool.
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2015-06-01T19:36:03Z luis: Anyway, blogging time for you. :) I need a break from the blogosphere spotlights after that super mediatic pretty-printer series.
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2015-06-01T19:37:23Z Xach: how pretty was my printer
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2015-06-01T19:39:02Z Xach fires up virtualbox to try it
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2015-06-01T19:45:09Z luis: It's funny when you start looking for some apropos widget or a class browser or something. I hadn't tried Corman Lisp in about 10 years; I had forgotten how spartan it was.
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2015-06-01T19:51:49Z Shinmera: Xach: fe[nl]ix mentioned to me that you have a google calendar where all the lisp meetups are noted down. Does that still exist, and if so, could you hand me a link to that?
2015-06-01T19:52:46Z rick-monster: luis - struggling to see how fiasco handles hierarchy of tests without using packages.
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2015-06-01T19:53:23Z luis: Shinmera: http://planet.lisp.org/meetings/
2015-06-01T19:53:40Z Shinmera: luis: Ah, thanks.
2015-06-01T19:54:08Z luis: rick-monster: I struggle to see how Fiasco handles tests hierarchies with packages, actually.
2015-06-01T19:54:19Z rick-monster: in-suite seems to be missing, so I tried to manually hack it by pushing sub-tests onto the children hash of the top-level test but that tehn seems to be broken...
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2015-06-01T19:54:36Z luis: rick-monster: in-suite is missing? That's surprising.
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2015-06-01T19:55:44Z rick-monster: I thought probably it was a decision to enforce separate test package from application code
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2015-06-01T19:56:21Z luis: rick-monster: oh, I see that capitaomorte removed them for some reason.
2015-06-01T19:56:24Z luis: Meh.
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2015-06-01T20:05:35Z luis: rick-monster: oh well, feel free to implement test hierarchies in Fiasco. Otherwise, hu.dwim.stefil should work for you.
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2015-06-01T20:09:53Z Xach: nice, corman 3.02 runs just fine in my vm
2015-06-01T20:10:36Z luis: Did you get a UAC pop up?
2015-06-01T20:10:43Z rick-monster: ok have my test harness working again now with hu.dwim.stefil and emailed a patch to atilla
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2015-06-01T21:12:48Z lmj`: I have a couple restarts that require my debugger hook to be present. Since (break) bypasses debugger hooks, users see useless/unusable restarts during a breakpoint. I would like to hide them using :test-function, however there isn't a way to differentiate between a breakpoint (when the restarts should be hidden) and non-interactive invocation (when they should be active).
2015-06-01T21:13:34Z lmj`: I guess there's no solution, but maybe I've missed something.
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2015-06-01T21:36:22Z dilated_dinosaur: hey all- does asdf cache files some place? trying to fix cl-png and i cant seem to get quicklisp to load png-test system
2015-06-01T21:39:04Z Shinmera: dilated_dinosaur: it usually caches in ~/.cache/common-lisp . You can usually force recompilation with (asdf:load-system thing :force T)
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2015-06-01T21:42:05Z Xach: dilated_dinosaur: what happens when you try?
2015-06-01T21:42:20Z dilated_dinosaur: Shinmera, thanks
2015-06-01T21:43:21Z dilated_dinosaur: it loads happy as pie. trouble is i was hacking at it and put in a whole bunch of erroneous load files, which it should abort on, but it loads happily
2015-06-01T21:43:46Z dilated_dinosaur: but then i cant access the package (the namespace is just undefined)
2015-06-01T21:43:58Z dilated_dinosaur: sorry if this is a touch newbish
2015-06-01T21:44:16Z Xach: Erroneous load files?
2015-06-01T21:45:01Z dilated_dinosaur: yeah- so in xpng.asd (the name i am using for it) there is (:file "src/compat" :depends-on ("p"))
2015-06-01T21:45:05Z dilated_dinosaur: which does not exist
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2015-06-01T21:48:27Z dilated_dinosaur: Shinmera, thats the trick. thanks!
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2015-06-01T21:56:36Z Xach: ah
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2015-06-01T21:57:01Z Xach: (asdf:clear-system "xpng") will also make it forget what it knows about the system definition, i think, but that might not be enough
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2015-06-01T21:58:26Z dilated_dinosaur: :)
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2015-06-01T22:32:32Z bananabas: any of u guys used mathematica?
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2015-06-01T22:50:23Z pjb: bananabas: I have used Mathematica.
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2015-06-01T22:52:02Z bananabas: pjb, is it true its very similar to lisp?
2015-06-01T22:52:33Z pjb: is it true that bananas are similar to oranges?  They're both agrumes.
2015-06-01T22:53:04Z pjb: drmeister: the standard reader macro #\( cannot use read-delimited-list to read lists, since it has to handle dotted-list.  See my reader or any other implementation reader for example.
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2015-06-01T22:55:19Z emaczen: What is recommended for processing video with vp8 codec?
2015-06-01T22:56:08Z pjb: Well, you'd have to write the vp8 codec in lisp to begin with.
2015-06-01T22:56:34Z nyef: What, FFI bindings need not apply?
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2015-06-01T22:57:32Z bananabas: pjb, ok, let me rephrase. would it be possible to implement something like mathematica using lisp?
2015-06-01T22:57:43Z emaczen: I can probably convert the encoding, but is there and recommendations? If not I can probably use ABCL and some java-interop
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2015-06-01T22:59:01Z pjb: bananabas: it has been done. Several times.
2015-06-01T22:59:07Z pjb: bananabas: cf. maxima
2015-06-01T22:59:34Z pjb: nyef: exactly.
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2015-06-01T23:00:47Z bananabas: pjb, several times?
2015-06-01T23:01:16Z Xach: bananabas: maxima and macsyma
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2015-06-01T23:07:05Z bananabas: vrrm, axiom is written in lisp? what dialect?
2015-06-01T23:07:27Z vrrm: common lisp (freecas is built with ecl)
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2015-06-01T23:08:10Z vrrm: (probably others will work too)
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2015-06-02T02:12:52Z jasom: 'Lovingly hand-picked local serifs trace that fine line between "I'm a free spirit with a stoic personality" and "God save the Queen".' <-- A line from the codex README
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2015-06-02T02:34:34Z jasom: emaczen: I call out to ffmpeg
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2015-06-02T02:35:16Z jasom: emaczen: I'm not familiar with any ffmpeg FFI bindings, so I use the executable and FIFOs
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2015-06-02T03:21:42Z pillton: Has someone done something like this? http://paste.lisp.org/display/148984
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2015-06-02T03:53:45Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-06-02T03:53:51Z pillton: G'day beach.
2015-06-02T03:59:29Z Bicyclidine: a compiler first stage, but inlining everything?
2015-06-02T04:01:16Z jasom: pillton: I've not seen it before; there's probably a lot of corner-cases
2015-06-02T04:01:16Z pillton: Bicyclidine: It has a special name in lambda calculus. I forget what the name is. It is the other form of evaluation to what is done in common lisp.
2015-06-02T04:01:47Z pillton: I can get pretty far with symbol macrolets.
2015-06-02T04:02:02Z pillton dives in.
2015-06-02T04:02:17Z jasom: pillton: don't forget to construct a list and then use destructuring-bind otherwise you run into name conflicts
2015-06-02T04:02:44Z pillton: That is what the symbol macrolet is for. All of the symbols in the lambda list get replaced with unique names.
2015-06-02T04:02:54Z jasom: oh
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2015-06-02T04:03:48Z pillton: Then it should be just nesting the lexical environment of the arguments before the main body.
2015-06-02T04:04:09Z Bicyclidine: weak head normal form, or something
2015-06-02T04:05:16Z pillton: This came about when I reduced the run time of some of my code from ~60 seconds to 6 seconds by using type declarations.
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2015-06-02T04:05:39Z pillton: But I lose generality in the process.
2015-06-02T04:06:39Z Zhivago: pillton: Type-specialization of functions?
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2015-06-02T04:06:54Z pillton: Yes.
2015-06-02T04:08:03Z Zhivago: I think that perhaps C++ has approximately the right idea there.
2015-06-02T04:08:29Z pillton: I have thought that, but it makes me cry.
2015-06-02T04:08:54Z pillton: If this works then I will have all of the pieces in place.
2015-06-02T04:08:54Z jasom: pillton: inline declarations weren't enough?
2015-06-02T04:09:34Z pillton: jasom: Inlining is only partial generality. It is limited to the compilation unit from what I can tell.
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2015-06-02T04:10:00Z jasom: pillton: it ought not be
2015-06-02T04:10:29Z Zhivago: It isn't necessarily, but it also involves ... inlining everything.
2015-06-02T04:10:35Z jasom: pillton: it ought to be the current file, and any already compiled functions declared inline
2015-06-02T04:10:51Z jasom: Zhivago: well pillton's doing that manually, it appears...
2015-06-02T04:11:06Z Zhivago: Oh, I thought he was generating a specialized function.
2015-06-02T04:11:45Z pillton: It is complicated as the lambda list for the function is (array array fn1 fn2 fn3).
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2015-06-02T04:13:32Z jasom: On a separate topic, is it possible to load a system from a specific .asd file, rather from the normal search method?
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2015-06-02T04:14:44Z jasom: duh, I could just push a function to *system-definition-search-function*
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2015-06-02T04:24:30Z emaczen: How can I register an event through SBCL?
2015-06-02T04:25:04Z emaczen: Or is there an SBCL implementation of a general API?
2015-06-02T04:25:13Z pillton: What sort of event?
2015-06-02T04:25:32Z emaczen: files being added to a directory.
2015-06-02T04:25:55Z Zhivago: Perhaps some ffi to some system dependent watchering system?
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2015-06-02T04:28:36Z jasom: emaczen: google tells me this for linux: https://github.com/Ferada/cl-inotify  ; disclaimer: It was the first hit when searching for "lisp inotify" not something I can personally recommend
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2015-06-02T04:30:28Z jasom: emaczen: https://github.com/howeyc/cl-fsnotify seems to try and abstract over that
2015-06-02T04:30:45Z emaczen: jasom: Thanks, it looks promising
2015-06-02T04:30:49Z jasom: s/that/linux and BSDs way of monitoring files and directories
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2015-06-02T05:16:01Z loke: There seems to be two packages: inotify and cl-inotify
2015-06-02T05:17:16Z emaczen: all: It seems that event-driven processing is not integrated
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2015-06-02T05:53:38Z kami: Good morning.
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2015-06-02T07:50:11Z loz: good morning, guys =)
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2015-06-02T08:47:50Z loz: is there any common practice for figuring out errors in cl systems? like saving backtraces or something?
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2015-06-02T08:49:45Z splittist: loz: do you mean the specification of a system - as in ASDF - or just an error in CL code?
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2015-06-02T08:50:22Z loz: splittist: just in code
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2015-06-02T08:50:58Z splittist: loz: compile time, load time, or run time?
2015-06-02T08:51:11Z loz: splittist: run time
2015-06-02T08:51:26Z jackdaniel: is clsql updated sometimes?
2015-06-02T08:51:36Z loz: splittist: right now i have a main loop with handler which saves all errors into global errors parameter
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2015-06-02T08:51:46Z splittist: loz: why?
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2015-06-02T08:52:20Z loz: you can check errors later and fix them while most of the system is working
2015-06-02T08:52:53Z loz: but i just got #<error Cannot convert #<QL-HTTP::CBUF-PROGRESS {100AFAB293}> to a RUNES:ROD at 02-06-2015 09:51>
2015-06-02T08:52:53Z loz: and this is obviously not enough to fix a bug
2015-06-02T08:53:49Z Shinmera: loz: Have a look at Dissect if you want to save the backtrace and restarts as well.
2015-06-02T08:53:57Z splittist: I am more familiar with wanting to fail as early as possible, then using the interactive debugger to move up and down the stack to find the real problem. (Well, that and sprinkling FORMAT statements about the place.)
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2015-06-02T08:54:14Z Shinmera: Also what splittist said.
2015-06-02T08:54:18Z splittist: Or what Shinmera said.
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2015-06-02T08:55:04Z loz: splittist: i doubt you will interactively fix bug in the middle of the night :)
2015-06-02T08:55:31Z Shinmera: In my "framework-y" projects I usually have a *debugger* special variable that decides whether the debugger is invoked on a caught condition in some main loop or similar.
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2015-06-02T08:56:04Z splittist: loz: it sounds like you need more logging of the errors you're continuing past.
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2015-06-02T08:56:09Z Shinmera: So f.e. in my web framework when I need to debug it live I can set it to T, call the offending page (which I know through logs) and then debug interactively.
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2015-06-02T08:57:45Z loz: Shinmera: what do you use for logs?
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2015-06-02T08:57:56Z Shinmera: Verbose
2015-06-02T08:58:17Z Shinmera: (another one of my own projects, surprise!)
2015-06-02T08:58:26Z loz: :)
2015-06-02T08:58:36Z splittist: Shinmera likes his tooling IH.
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2015-06-02T08:58:52Z Shinmera: Eh, more like I'm just a very impatient man.
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2015-06-02T08:59:11Z loz: no wonders here, cl is the language you want to rewrite everything in
2015-06-02T08:59:17Z Shinmera: Too impatient to figure out how to bend existing systems to my will.
2015-06-02T09:00:20Z Shinmera: I should actually integrate Dissect into Verbose and fix a few other kludges with that some day.
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2015-06-02T09:03:43Z splittist: dissect:present could be a nice thing to have in logs, indeed
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2015-06-02T09:07:19Z Shinmera: Might also be useful to have something like (dissect:with-truncated-stack ...) to omit "boring" stack frames down the line.
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2015-06-02T13:09:14Z schjetne: I'm in full bike-shedding mode here
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2015-06-02T13:10:32Z schjetne: I'm dividing the company software into separate ASDF systems, but I still want to do all the configuration in a central location. I thought I'd use py-configparser to be nice to the sysadmin
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2015-06-02T13:12:11Z schjetne: Not sure whether to define the sections and load the files separately for every system, or make a common system to manage all the configuration
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2015-06-02T13:14:54Z schjetne: Probably the latter since loading the configuration must be done in each image's toplevel function
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2015-06-02T15:06:09Z troydm: Xach: hey! is this correct way to provide metadata? http://pastebin.com/ykEyA8aE
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2015-06-02T15:11:56Z Shinmera: troydm: That seems fine to me. Maybe consider also adding a :maintainer field (with the same thing as :author for now).
2015-06-02T15:12:08Z troydm: Shinmera: okey
2015-06-02T15:12:43Z Shinmera: A :version field would also be good, if possible in "x.x.x" format.
2015-06-02T15:13:55Z Shinmera: Just as a reference, my systems usually have the following info: https://github.com/Shinmera/qtools/blob/master/qtools.asd#L8
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2015-06-02T15:17:16Z Xach: troydm: looks good
2015-06-02T15:17:59Z Shinmera: Xach: has the discussion about required/non-required :description field reached any conclusions so far?
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2015-06-02T15:22:09Z H4ns has received several passive aggressive issues in various github repositories that apparently have made it into quicklisp with "incomplete" .asd files
2015-06-02T15:23:07Z H4ns: now we'll see dozens up stray system updates in the next quicklisp dist. :/
2015-06-02T15:23:12Z Xach: Shinmera: it seems that people do not want to add that info
2015-06-02T15:23:13Z H4ns: s/up/of/
2015-06-02T15:24:23Z jackdaniel: :description "You know, stuff. It does something of this, and a bit of that. Stuff."
2015-06-02T15:24:57Z H4ns: "temporary-file: a library to handle temporary files"
2015-06-02T15:25:00Z H4ns: \o/
2015-06-02T15:25:06Z dlowe: H4ns: I thought about sending pull reqs but it seemed presumptuous.
2015-06-02T15:25:46Z pjb: Xach: it's not that people don't want, but it's rather hard to write short descriptions for a lot of libraries.
2015-06-02T15:25:49Z H4ns: dlowe: i would not have minded at all
2015-06-02T15:25:57Z eudoxia: better to send a PR than raise a "pls fix" issue
2015-06-02T15:26:04Z eudoxia: where better means, more likely to impart a change
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2015-06-02T15:26:07Z dlowe: aren't all issues "pls fix"?
2015-06-02T15:26:13Z Xach: pjb: That has not been my experience.
2015-06-02T15:26:16Z pjb: with hints and example of "good style" short descriptions.
2015-06-02T15:26:23Z eudoxia: dlower: no, some are proposals or requests for new features
2015-06-02T15:26:38Z pjb: s/a lot of/some/
2015-06-02T15:26:51Z H4ns: i find it rather minionesque to go to random lisp library repositories and raise "missing :description" issues.  but maybe some people don't mind being minionesque
2015-06-02T15:27:17Z Xach: H4ns: Would you prefer I did it personally?
2015-06-02T15:27:34Z Xach: I asked people to help, and they have. I hope they have not been rude about it.
2015-06-02T15:28:32Z Xach: I have gotten open issues on my own projects that I forgot about.
2015-06-02T15:28:34Z H4ns: Xach: if you had opened the issues, i would have felt more positive. but then, it is no big deal at all.
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2015-06-02T15:28:47Z pjb: H4ns: programming is still a matter of details and precision.
2015-06-02T15:29:02Z pjb: H4ns: until you give free access to AI to patch your programs…
2015-06-02T15:30:40Z H4ns: Xach: three of the libraries (xhtmlgen, stem and unit-test) are actually just packaged versions of things that i have not written, though, and that i'm never going to maintain.  and temporary-file is really totally obsolete and should propably just die.
2015-06-02T15:30:41Z Shinmera: H4ns: Xach: That doesn't sound encouraging.
2015-06-02T15:31:25Z Xach: H4ns: that's good to know
2015-06-02T15:31:54Z H4ns: Xach: is that an american idiom comparable to "how interesting" in british english? :)
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2015-06-02T15:34:05Z Shinmera tries to imagine what kind of hell would break loose if Xach were to enforce a :version field and scheme.
2015-06-02T15:34:10Z Xach: Not sure. But I think it is good to know that some libraries are effectively not maintained
2015-06-02T15:34:20Z Xach: Shinmera: an unlikely hell, as that does not interest me at all
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2015-06-02T15:35:08Z H4ns: Xach: i'm not sure, but i seem to remember that there is some umbrella github organisation that adopts orphaned lisp libraries.  do you know something about that?  lisp-gardeners?
2015-06-02T15:35:18Z Shinmera: sharplispers
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2015-06-02T15:36:09Z Xach: H4ns: sharplispers is it, and i don't mind adopting more stuff for minor updates.
2015-06-02T15:36:16Z Xach wears a sharplisper hat sometimes
2015-06-02T15:36:47Z H4ns: Xach: great, then why don't you adopt xhtmlgen, stem and unit-test?  and maybe we can completely kill temporary-file?
2015-06-02T15:37:00Z Xach: H4ns: ok
2015-06-02T15:37:25Z Xach: H4ns: what about killing the first three?
2015-06-02T15:37:29Z Xach can check download stats
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2015-06-02T15:43:25Z H4ns: Xach: i think they're in quicklisp because of bknr-web, but i would not mind seeing that be removed from quicklisp either.
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2015-06-02T15:51:28Z mlybdnm: Is there something like ext:long-float-digits (CLISP) in SBCL?
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2015-06-02T15:53:19Z mlybdnm: Also is there a way to coerce multiple function parameters to be of type double-float without the three calls of function `setf' and `coerce'?
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2015-06-02T16:15:42Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2015-06-02T16:16:09Z Shinmera: Hullo beach
2015-06-02T16:16:57Z pjb: mlybdnm: use let, not setf. (defun f (x y) (let ((x (coerce x 'double-float)) (y (coerce y 'double-float))) …)  If you do that a lot, write a macro.
2015-06-02T16:20:00Z drmeister: Hi beach
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2015-06-02T16:21:07Z drmeister: I'm following your lead wrt serialization. I'll find out if it will work for my needs.
2015-06-02T16:21:38Z drmeister: Do you serialize hash tables that way?
2015-06-02T16:22:26Z beach: I haven't done hash tables.  It is complicated for technical reasons.  You are not allowed to write a method on print-object that specializes on hash tables.
2015-06-02T16:23:04Z Shinmera: in Universal-Config I serialise hash tables with {test field value, field value ... }
2015-06-02T16:23:34Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-06-02T16:25:03Z jasom: mlybdnm: also consider changing your default-float-format to double
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2015-06-02T16:26:42Z pjb: You can even add a type declaration: in the inner scope: (defun f (x y) (let ((x (coerce x 'double-float)) (y (coerce y 'double-float))) (declare (double-float x y))  …))
2015-06-02T16:27:06Z pjb: you couldn't do that with setf.
2015-06-02T16:27:37Z drmeister: What are the underlying reasons for why we are prohibited from writing print-object methods for hash tables? Because I merrily went ahead and wrote one.
2015-06-02T16:28:03Z pjb: drmeister: because the implementation may already have one defined.
2015-06-02T16:28:13Z pjb: drmeister: as an implementer, you can definitely write one!
2015-06-02T16:29:00Z beach: Furthermore, there is a restriction on PRINT-OBJECT.  As I recall, the consequences are undefined if you specialize on the stream parameter.
2015-06-02T16:29:02Z pjb: drmeister: you must understand the two sides of the contract (the clhs).  It is expressed from the  client point of view, not the implementer.
2015-06-02T16:29:25Z pjb: Yes, and again, because the implementation may define such specializations.
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2015-06-02T16:30:40Z pjb: An implementation could _document_ the possibility of defining methods on standard objects and stream, as an extension of CL. (Programs doing so in that implementation would still be non-conforming, but they could be defined).
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2015-06-02T16:34:37Z beach: drmeister: pjb is right, of course.  As the implementer, you do what you want.
2015-06-02T16:35:10Z drmeister: It's good to be implementor
2015-06-02T16:35:24Z pjb: All these constraints are put on conforming programs, so that implementers have more freedoms to do whatever they want to simplify or optimize their implementation.
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2015-06-02T17:01:13Z mlybdnm: pjb: Are you around?
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2015-06-02T17:03:43Z pjb: Yes
2015-06-02T17:03:56Z Xach: pjb is always around. when there was one set of footprints, he carried you, and will send you a message hours later just in case.
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2015-06-02T17:12:12Z mlybdnm: pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149001 <- how could you further optimise it, or at least silence the warnings such as "forced to do GENERIC", "unable to do inline float arithmethic"...?
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2015-06-02T17:12:40Z pjb: mlybdnm: You can even add a type declaration: in the inner scope: (defun f (x y) (let ((x (coerce x 'double-float)) (y (coerce y 'double-float))) (declare (double-float x y))  …))
2015-06-02T17:13:03Z pjb: mlybdnm: I'm not really a specialist of optimization. You could better ask everybody and get more advices.
2015-06-02T17:13:29Z mlybdnm: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149001 <- how could you further optimise it, or at least silence the warnings such as "forced to do GENERIC", "unable to do inline float arithmethic"...?
2015-06-02T17:13:33Z mlybdnm: mlybdnm: Thanks.
2015-06-02T17:13:34Z mlybdnm: pjb: Thanks.
2015-06-02T17:13:35Z pjb: mlybdnm: Use double-float literals, if you want to compute with double floats!
2015-06-02T17:13:44Z pjb: 0.01d0 2.0d0 1.0d0 etc.
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2015-06-02T17:16:38Z mlybdnm: I wonder how to make the warnings disappear though.
2015-06-02T17:17:24Z pjb: I (- 1 pt) is a generic operation when pt is known to be a double-float.
2015-06-02T17:17:35Z pjb: (- 1.0d0 pt) is a specialized double-float operation when pt is known to be a double-float.
2015-06-02T17:18:38Z pjb: (/ 1 2) returns a rational, not a double-float.  multiplying a rational with a double-float is a generic operation.   Multiplying 0.5d0 with a double-float is a specialized double-float operation.
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2015-06-02T17:18:57Z pjb: mlybdnm: this is not rocket science, a 5 years old could understand it…
2015-06-02T17:19:16Z pjb: you know, square pegs in square holes, round pegs in round holes.
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2015-06-02T17:20:25Z |3b|: you can't get rid of the notes, since as it says it doesn't (and can't) know the types of the arguments in advance
2015-06-02T17:20:49Z |3b|: well, some of the notes
2015-06-02T17:21:22Z oconnore: mlybdnm: something like http://gbbopen.org/hyperdoc/ref-declared-numerics.html can make it nicer
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2015-06-02T17:22:40Z |3b|: you can get rid of one by verifying it is a non-negative value before taking square-root
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2015-06-02T17:25:22Z |3b|: depending on how you use it, you might be able to get better performance by inlining it, since that way if it knows you call it with double floats it can skip the conversion
2015-06-02T17:26:07Z |3b|: and similarly for returning the result (since normally it has to allocate space for the result since a double/long float doesn't fit in an immediate value)
2015-06-02T17:26:51Z nyef: You could do a double-bounce thing. Have an inlined wrapper that does the conversion, and the main function simply declare that the arguments truly are of the right type.
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2015-06-02T17:59:05Z drmeister: I just added code to print floats properly to Clasp.  My floats are now printing 1.0 --> 1.0d0     What is making it print "1.0d0" rather than "1.0" ?
2015-06-02T18:00:09Z |3b|: d0 is double float
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2015-06-02T18:01:13Z drmeister: Yes - and I see that *read-default-float-format* was 'single-float and so doubles were printing as 1.0d0
2015-06-02T18:01:27Z |3b|: 1.0 is whatever *read-default-float-format* is
2015-06-02T18:01:34Z |3b|: right
2015-06-02T18:01:38Z drmeister: It didn't occur to me that a *read-xxx* variable would control printing but I understand now.
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2015-06-02T18:38:05Z drmeister: Folks - I'm adding support to my printer and reader to serialize C++ classes that extend Clasp Common Lisp ...
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2015-06-02T18:38:21Z drmeister: I've added support to print hash-tables as part of this...
2015-06-02T18:38:35Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/9EtGa2nP/
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2015-06-02T18:38:53Z drmeister: This generates:    {HASH-TABLE-EQL CORE::DATA #A(T (4) (KEYB (3 . #1=(1 . 2)) KEYA #1#)) CORE::REHASH-THRESHOLD 1.0d0 CORE::REHASH-SIZE 1.5d0}
2015-06-02T18:39:11Z drmeister: I'm using { } temporarily while I work out issues.
2015-06-02T18:39:42Z drmeister: Later I'll switch to a pair of Unicode characters and write a reader macro to read these and regenerate the objects.
2015-06-02T18:40:11Z drmeister: The idea is to read { with read-delimited-list and then (apply #'make-instance list)
2015-06-02T18:40:51Z drmeister: Does anyone see any problems doing this?
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2015-06-02T18:40:59Z Bike: You don't use keywords for the initargs, huh?
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2015-06-02T18:42:11Z drmeister: Bike: No, I realized that the CLHS doesn't require keywords for initargs (is that really true?) and this way I can use lots of initargs symbols and not pollute the keyword package.
2015-06-02T18:43:01Z drmeister: The C++ code that ultimately generates and consumes these keyword/value pairs for writing and reading objects becomes very simple.
2015-06-02T18:43:17Z Bike: it's true, i just didn't expect it
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2015-06-02T18:45:17Z Shinmera: drmeister: But these symbols are still interned in a package, so the "polluting" argument doesn't really apply imo
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2015-06-02T18:45:43Z Shinmera: I mean, you aren't saving anything, and only waste space by continuously having to print the package.
2015-06-02T18:46:11Z drmeister: Shinmera: For my chemistry code I've created a "CHEM-KW" package that will hold all of these symbols.  It's purpose is to be "polluted" with lots of chemistry related symbols.
2015-06-02T18:46:15Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/oEkxCpUc/
2015-06-02T18:46:38Z Shinmera: I still don't see why you wouldn't use keywords for the initargs.
2015-06-02T18:46:43Z drmeister: This is an example of a class that stores a logical operation that is applied to two branches of a molecular fragment.
2015-06-02T18:47:17Z drmeister: The keys are CHEM-KW:OP  CHEM-KW:LEFT  and CHEM-KW:RIGHT
2015-06-02T18:47:44Z drmeister: This function both generates the keyword/value pairs and consumes them to recreate a CHEM:LOGICAL object.
2015-06-02T18:48:44Z drmeister: I kinda wanted to leave the Common Lisp keyword space for Common Lisp code.
2015-06-02T18:48:51Z drmeister: I thought it would be cleaner.
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2015-06-02T18:49:02Z drmeister: I was also going to write a reader macro for chemistry keywords.
2015-06-02T18:49:18Z Shinmera: sounds more just like unnecessary complexity to me.
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2015-06-02T18:49:25Z drmeister: %OP %LEFT %RIGHT  where % is substituted with a Unicode symbol.
2015-06-02T18:49:39Z Shinmera: And you expect people to type that unicode symbol?
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2015-06-02T18:49:42Z drmeister: Maybe there is a Unicode symbol that looks like a beaker.
2015-06-02T18:49:56Z drmeister: Yes.
2015-06-02T18:50:04Z Shinmera: That's just lunacy.
2015-06-02T18:50:16Z drmeister: By slamming their foreheads against the keyboard.
2015-06-02T18:50:47Z drmeister: Seriously though - really?  You think it's a bad idea - should I really use regular keywords.   I can - it's no problem.
2015-06-02T18:51:02Z Shinmera: I don't see the point in creating an arbitrary distinction for this
2015-06-02T18:51:06Z drmeister: The code is going to fill up with keywords though.
2015-06-02T18:51:09Z Shinmera: You already have the distinction in the class names.
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2015-06-02T18:51:21Z drmeister: (make-atom :name :C1 :element :C :hybridization :sp3)
2015-06-02T18:51:41Z Shinmera: Why also keywords for the types?
2015-06-02T18:51:56Z drmeister: Rather than (make-atom :name %C1 :element %C :hybridization %sp3)  Where % is some Unicode character that looks like a beaker.
2015-06-02T18:52:04Z Shinmera: For that it would make more sense to use non-keyword symbols, so you could have a separate package of your "own" types.
2015-06-02T18:52:11Z drmeister: Symbols for everything.  Strings are stupid.
2015-06-02T18:53:15Z drmeister: I guess we are talking about two different things.  You make a good point.   I'll still have the CHEM-KW package for atom names, element names, hybridization names, residue names, molecule names etc.
2015-06-02T18:53:21Z Shinmera: So, again, why %C and not just 'c or 'my-chemistry-whatnot:c (depending on current package)?
2015-06-02T18:53:31Z drmeister: What we are discussing here is using keyword symbols for initargs
2015-06-02T18:54:16Z drmeister: Because I don't want to pollute the :CHEM package with all of these names.  The :CHEM package is for chemistry classes, functions etc.
2015-06-02T18:54:26Z drmeister: Things that don't change from session to session.
2015-06-02T18:54:42Z drmeister: The :CHEM-KW package is for names.
2015-06-02T18:56:08Z drmeister: Just to reiterate - my idea was to have a :CHEM package for all of the chemistry functions/classes etc and a :CHEM-KW package that stores names of entities created using the functionality in :CHEM.
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2015-06-02T18:56:09Z Shinmera: I don't really know enough about what your actual system is to be able to give any further input.
2015-06-02T18:56:17Z akkad: are there any cl packages to collect unix system information?
2015-06-02T18:56:24Z drmeister: I have a LOT of temporary names to deal with.
2015-06-02T18:56:37Z dim: akkad: I had a very simple one in a custom app
2015-06-02T18:56:40Z Shinmera: akkad: what kind of information?
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2015-06-02T18:57:01Z dim: basically read some /proc files and displayed basic things (iowait, io bandwidth in MBps)
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2015-06-02T18:57:20Z drmeister: I used to use strings when I used C++&Python  but strings are slow and stupid.
2015-06-02T18:58:10Z dim: sometimes it's all you have
2015-06-02T18:58:24Z Shinmera: I wouldn't want people using anything but strings for text.
2015-06-02T18:58:40Z drmeister: Shinmera: You raise a good point though - I'll use keyword symbols to label these fields for serialization.
2015-06-02T18:59:45Z akkad: Shinmera: /dev/kmem groveller
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2015-06-02T19:00:05Z akkad: parsing /proc is probably the most portable
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2015-06-02T19:00:17Z drmeister: It's not text.   Carbon is Carbon, Alanine is Alanine.   It makes more sense to use symbols to label them than strings like "Alanine".  It makes more sense to label fifty different residues CHEM-KW:ALANINE than to label them all with strings containing "ALANINE"
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2015-06-02T19:01:18Z drmeister: Because CHEM-KW:ALANINE means one thing.  Strings need to be compared character by character.  Symbols do not - so they are faster.
2015-06-02T19:01:47Z H4ns: akkad: hahaha!  most portable among linux!
2015-06-02T19:01:51Z H4ns: *facepalm*
2015-06-02T19:02:16Z akkad: is there anything else?
2015-06-02T19:02:28Z akkad: this coming from a long time bsd bigot btw
2015-06-02T19:02:31Z drmeister: I know we aren't arguing about this, I'm just core-dumping my years of thinking in case someone has thoughts on it.  Common Lisp gives me symbols - I thought I would use them here where they seem to be more appropriate than string based names.
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2015-06-02T19:02:54Z Shinmera: drmeister: Seems fine to me. I'm just saying, symbols aren't always the right thing either.
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2015-06-02T19:07:23Z phf: amusingly enough there's an alembic symbol in unicode, but no beaker
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2015-06-02T19:14:10Z dim: drmeister: do you GC your symbols?
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2015-06-02T19:14:35Z dim: akkad: /proc comes from plan9, that's about how portable it is
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2015-06-02T19:16:10Z p_l: the /proc filesystem shows up in few other OSes (I think Solaris adopted it as well?)
2015-06-02T19:16:45Z p_l: a bunch of others also decided that having ps and the like use special syscalls was perhaps not the best
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2015-06-02T19:33:27Z shka: dim: do you actually need to GC symbols?
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2015-06-02T19:36:01Z drmeister: shka: There isn't much turn-over for symbols. My feeling is that they are interned and very rarely discarded.
2015-06-02T19:36:26Z drmeister: But in principle, yes they should be garbage collected like everything else.
2015-06-02T19:36:32Z Shinmera: They're still just objects. When all references are gone, they should be GCed
2015-06-02T19:36:40Z francogrex: this is clearly wrong: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149010 but is this concept possible?
2015-06-02T19:37:01Z francogrex: to have a slot value as an instance of its own class?
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2015-06-02T19:38:39Z drmeister: francogrex: Wouldn't creating of one instance start an infinite loop of creation of other instances?
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2015-06-02T19:38:50Z drmeister: s/creating of/creation of/
2015-06-02T19:39:43Z francogrex: i would guess yes
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2015-06-02T19:40:54Z francogrex: somehow in java it can be doable... like http://paste.lisp.org/display/149007 zcir
2015-06-02T19:41:21Z francogrex: but I am sure I am not following the same concept in lisp here
2015-06-02T19:41:30Z francogrex: in the lisp code I mean
2015-06-02T19:41:54Z Shinmera: that's a static field.
2015-06-02T19:42:41Z francogrex: I know but remove the static
2015-06-02T19:42:46Z francogrex: still ok
2015-06-02T19:42:51Z oGMo: doubtful
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2015-06-02T19:44:08Z Shinmera: no it isn't still ok.
2015-06-02T19:44:46Z Shinmera: public class a{a a = new a(); public static void main(String[] args){new a();}} => stack overflow as expected.
2015-06-02T19:45:03Z oGMo: i didn't have a javac handy but i can't imagine any other result
2015-06-02T19:45:16Z drmeister: Shinmera: Ugh - switching to the keyword package for initargs causes symbol scraping problems because C++ variables with the same name end up being defined in more than one place.  (sigh)
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2015-06-02T19:45:32Z pjb: Yes, you miss a static in there.
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2015-06-02T19:46:04Z drmeister: To solve this I can't have local symbol tables in the Clasp directories anymore - I'll have to have one global symbol table (groan).
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2015-06-02T19:46:10Z oGMo: you could similarly use :allocation :class i think, but i'm not sure why you _would_
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2015-06-02T19:50:14Z francogrex: it orks I am telling you
2015-06-02T19:50:17Z francogrex: works
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2015-06-02T19:54:30Z francogrex: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149010#1 compiles fine and works ok though it seems like zscir is behaving as if its static...
2015-06-02T19:54:33Z francogrex: hmm
2015-06-02T19:55:27Z oGMo: forget to save the buffer?
2015-06-02T19:56:10Z oGMo: it can't work, and if it does your java is broken, and beyond that the question is _why would you do this_, in java _or_ CL
2015-06-02T19:56:12Z francogrex: :) no oGMo  I didn't. but something is not right
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2015-06-02T19:57:46Z francogrex: oGMo: ok it's not useful as such.... but I wanted to know how to have an object as a slot value
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2015-06-02T19:58:22Z francogrex: forget this silly recursion experience... just any other instantiated object
2015-06-02T19:58:23Z oGMo: you set it there like any other
2015-06-02T19:58:33Z oGMo: or (make-instance ..) it
2015-06-02T19:59:00Z francogrex: yes is it in :initform I (make-instance ..) ?
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2015-06-02T19:59:59Z oGMo: that's one way
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2015-06-02T20:02:25Z Shinmera prefers to use :default-initargs where possible nowadays
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2015-06-02T20:05:54Z drmeister: Shinmera: How does :default-initargs work?
2015-06-02T20:06:13Z Shinmera: drmeister: (defclass foo ((mything :initarg :bla)) (:default-initargs :bla "whatnot"))
2015-06-02T20:06:51Z Shinmera: It makes the defclass form feel less crowded to me.
2015-06-02T20:07:01Z drmeister: Also, why should initarg's be keyword arguments?
2015-06-02T20:07:02Z francogrex: I'm getting the keyword argument not a symbol: (ZCIR :INITFORM (MAKE-INSTANCE 'something) ...) ...
2015-06-02T20:07:22Z drmeister: Rather, why should initarg's be keyword symbols?
2015-06-02T20:07:50Z drmeister: It's what everyone expects I know but from my reading of the CLHS it isn't necessary.
2015-06-02T20:08:02Z Shinmera: drmeister: for the same reason that key args in functions are keyword symbols.
2015-06-02T20:08:03Z dlowe: it's been suggested that they shouldn't be
2015-06-02T20:08:22Z drmeister: dlowe: Could you expand on that?
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2015-06-02T20:08:53Z dlowe: If you don't use keyword symbols,  you can subclass in your own package without worrying about colliding initargs
2015-06-02T20:09:48Z Shinmera: Also, just from a purely aesthetic markup viewpoint, /not/ having keywords looks really bad.
2015-06-02T20:10:34Z drmeister: Shinmera: I don't disagree with you on that.   Keywords have a nice look to them in an argument list.
2015-06-02T20:11:14Z Shinmera: It's not so much having a nice look to them, as not having the alternating colour scheme makes it really hard to read, unless you put each pair on separate lines, which in looks really bad very often.
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2015-06-02T20:11:39Z drmeister: They seem to be overused at times though:  (with-open-file (fin "FOO.TXT" :direction :input :if-exists :error)) ... )
2015-06-02T20:11:54Z dlowe: oh, yeah. I agree that I'd rather see keywords. But it's worth considering the other side.
2015-06-02T20:12:01Z drmeister: Whoops - too many close parentheses.
2015-06-02T20:12:05Z Xach: drmeister: i worked with guys who quoted keywords-as-data
2015-06-02T20:12:10Z dlowe: drmeister: I don't mind that so much as :if-does-not-exist
2015-06-02T20:12:14Z Shinmera: drmeister: What would you use instead of that there?
2015-06-02T20:12:21Z Xach: drmeister: e.g. (... :direction ':input :if-exists ':error)
2015-06-02T20:12:38Z Xach: It was an interesting choice
2015-06-02T20:12:39Z drmeister: Shinmera: I'm not proposing anything.
2015-06-02T20:12:57Z drmeister: Xach: Interesting - I may start doing that.
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2015-06-02T20:13:18Z Shinmera: I suppose a good idea would have been if string designators had been allowed instead. That would allow :direction 'input etc.
2015-06-02T20:13:23Z drmeister: Shinmera: I propose quoting keywords as data e.g. (... :direction ':input :if-exists ':error)
2015-06-02T20:13:29Z Shinmera: Though that would introduce string tests, so
2015-06-02T20:13:38Z dlowe isn't a fan of string designators.
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2015-06-02T20:13:46Z drmeister: Yeah - string designators suck.
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2015-06-02T20:14:03Z Shinmera: What's the rationale for that?
2015-06-02T20:14:09Z dlowe: keywords are just fine for "symbols that don't really belong in a single package"
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2015-06-02T20:23:25Z emaczen: With ABCL how do I import a java class from the REPL?
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2015-06-02T20:23:43Z emaczen: I asked in #abcl, but it looks like nobody is listening there.
2015-06-02T20:24:48Z Xach: emaczen: those who know might be sleeping
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2015-06-02T20:25:10Z emaczen: Xach: Didn't you write a blog post about ABCL and swing?
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2015-06-02T20:27:47Z fourier: "/ignore -channels #emacs,#lisp,#fsf * JOINS PARTS QUITS NICKS"
2015-06-02T20:27:52Z fourier: "/ignore -channels #emacs,#lisp,#fsf * JOINS PARTS QUITS NICKS"
2015-06-02T20:28:16Z Xach: emaczen: no
2015-06-02T20:28:30Z Xach: emaczen: i have not used abcl except for some light testing
2015-06-02T20:29:53Z emaczen: Xach: What is this: http://xach.livejournal.com/310363.html
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2015-06-02T20:34:55Z Xach: emaczen: That is a blog post that quotes another person's message about abcl and swing.
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2015-06-02T20:38:00Z emaczen: Xach: Do you know where frederico's code for commonlisp and swing is?
2015-06-02T20:38:06Z Xach: emaczen: no, sorry
2015-06-02T20:38:28Z emaczen: Xach: Thanks, I'll keep looking
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2015-06-02T20:44:07Z PuercoPop: Xach: the link in the blog post doesn't like to mail from Frederico but to an unrelated mail
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2015-06-02T20:48:01Z PuercoPop: It shoud point to this mail: https://lists.common-lisp.net/pipermail/armedbear-devel/2012-July/002469.html but instead points to one ending in 83
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2015-06-02T20:49:55Z Xach: PuercoPop: i wonder if it was correct in the past but made incorrect over time
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2015-06-02T20:57:25Z PuercoPop: No idea, maybe the recent commonlisp.net migration change the ml archives urls?
2015-06-02T20:58:48Z fe[nl]ix: dlowe: ever tried using non-keyword symbols for keyword args ?
2015-06-02T20:59:11Z Xach: PuercoPop: i wonder if that's possible
2015-06-02T20:59:18Z dlowe: fe[nl]ix: not I.
2015-06-02T21:00:12Z fe[nl]ix: dlowe: it makes for pretty obfuscated code
2015-06-02T21:00:34Z fe[nl]ix: like (foo 'a 'b 'c 'd)
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2015-06-02T21:02:02Z fe[nl]ix: or (foo 'a :a 'b :b)
2015-06-02T21:02:44Z PuercoPop: if you use the function from another package do you have to call it (foo 'some-package:a :a ...)?
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2015-06-02T21:03:57Z dlowe: fe[nl]ix: yeah, I can definitely see it
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2015-06-02T21:04:30Z francogrex: I started using abcl recently... emaczen the manual is quite detailed
2015-06-02T21:04:44Z francogrex: about java from lisp
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2015-06-02T21:05:34Z francogrex: and btw abcl is a good implementation I think in terms of ansi compliance it's the most... though that says little these days...
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2015-06-02T21:30:13Z dim: drmeister: my understanding for using keywords symbols is that you can then use them from any package without having to care about exporting and importing them
2015-06-02T21:30:31Z dim: drmeister: in the case of CL itself, it also allows not to care about shadowing user code
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2015-06-02T22:05:50Z small-wolf: Is there a way to get some type of immutable container in Common Lisp?
2015-06-02T22:07:00Z H4ns: small-wolf: what do you mean by that?
2015-06-02T22:09:27Z small-wolf: I came across this thread ( http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7254514/ ) and was wondering if immutable cons cells or arrays or something already existed in some form.
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2015-06-02T22:10:21Z H4ns: small-wolf: no, common lisp does not provide for immutable data structures.  you can add them using libraries, but that won't affect common lisp itself.
2015-06-02T22:11:02Z small-wolf: my vague sort of end goal is mimicking purely functional languages like clean or haskell.
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2015-06-02T22:11:21Z H4ns: small-wolf: you can straight down implement them in common lisp if you so choose.
2015-06-02T22:11:47Z H4ns: small-wolf: maybe look at fset, it is a library that implements immutable data structure.
2015-06-02T22:11:54Z H4ns: structureS
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2015-06-02T22:17:00Z Xach: The compiler won't do anything special with your immutable-by-convention data structures, though.
2015-06-02T22:17:11Z Xach: Not like when it's designed with immutability in mind
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2015-06-02T22:21:05Z small-wolf: is that what fset provides you with, immutability convention?
2015-06-02T22:21:09Z small-wolf: by*
2015-06-02T22:21:13Z H4ns: yes.
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2015-06-02T22:32:22Z pjb: small-wolf: closures are basically immutable, as long as no function in the closure provides mutation of the environment.
2015-06-02T22:33:43Z meister: dim: Thanks.
2015-06-02T22:35:50Z meister: There's another really good reason to use symbols rather than names.  The READable printed representation is a lot more compact.  It's not human readable anymore, too many #...# in there - but it's compact.
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2015-06-02T23:47:00Z bananabas: has anyone here used Julia?
2015-06-02T23:47:16Z pjb: This is not on topic.  Try ##lisp or #lispcafe.
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2015-06-02T23:55:45Z drmeister: How do I define a simple circular list?  (defparameter *x* #1=(cons 'foo #1#))  blows up on every CL I try it on.
2015-06-02T23:56:08Z pjb: ensure-circular or literal: '#1=(a . #1#)
2015-06-02T23:56:36Z drmeister: Why does what I wrote blow the stack?
2015-06-02T23:56:38Z Bike: drmeister: that's like (cons 'foo (cons 'foo ...etc...)), ie infinitely many function calls
2015-06-02T23:56:38Z pjb: (defun ensure-circular (list) (setf (cdr (last list)) list))
2015-06-02T23:56:39Z nyef: Wow. Circular code passed into the compiler?
2015-06-02T23:56:51Z pjb: drmeister: because your _source code_ is "infinite".
2015-06-02T23:56:59Z drmeister: I see.
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2015-06-02T23:57:30Z pjb: it's not conforming, so implementers have it easy and don't have to check for circular source code, but may blow the stack. So they do blow the stack.
2015-06-02T23:57:47Z pjb: But if you wanted to be nice to newbies, you could _detect_ circular code, and issue a nice error message instead.
2015-06-02T23:58:14Z drmeister has a sorcerers apprentice moment.
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2015-06-03T00:06:33Z emaczen: I'm getting an lfp.h no such file error when trying to quickload "inotify" and it looks like it is coming from an iolib dependency
2015-06-03T00:08:39Z nyef: emaczen: Yes, you need to install libfixposix-dev or similar.
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2015-06-03T00:10:37Z emaczen: thanks nyef
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2015-06-03T00:10:57Z emaczen: nyef: Do you know what libfixposix is for fedora?
2015-06-03T00:11:04Z nyef: No clue.
2015-06-03T00:11:11Z nyef: Debian user here, sorry.
2015-06-03T00:11:38Z nyef: I think I might be required to trash-talk your preferred linux distro now, as well. d-:
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2015-06-03T00:12:13Z Bike: looks like there's a libfixposix-devel in fedora
2015-06-03T00:12:47Z emaczen: Bike: I used yumsearch with "libfixposix" and got nothing.
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2015-06-03T00:13:24Z Bike: oh, sorry, it's an rpm, just not in the package manager i don't think.
2015-06-03T00:14:05Z Bike: wow, if you google "fedora rpm" #lisp logs show up!
2015-06-03T00:14:09Z Bike: er, fedora libfixposix
2015-06-03T00:14:33Z nyef: Probably because almost nobody uses libfixposix besides us lispers.
2015-06-03T00:14:42Z Bike: probably.
2015-06-03T00:14:49Z emaczen: what is inside libfixposix?
2015-06-03T00:16:10Z Bike: "The purpose of libfixposix is to offer replacements for parts of POSIX whose behaviour is inconsistent across *NIX flavours."
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2015-06-03T00:50:40Z emaczen: now when I try quickloading "inotify" it tells me that it cannot find libfixposix.so -- I installed this by source
2015-06-03T00:50:49Z emaczen: from source
2015-06-03T00:51:35Z Bike: you actually put it in /usr/lib or wherever? try running 'ldconfig' first.
2015-06-03T00:52:05Z emaczen: I ran "sudo ldconfig"
2015-06-03T00:52:18Z emaczen: It is installed in /usr/local/lib
2015-06-03T00:52:58Z pillton: Just load it manually from your implementations dot file.
2015-06-03T00:53:40Z emaczen: pillton: (load "libfixposix.so") ?
2015-06-03T00:54:02Z pillton: (cffi:load-foreign-library "...")
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2015-06-03T00:57:03Z emaczen: pillton: It still gives me the same error which I try to (quickload :inotify)
2015-06-03T00:57:45Z pillton: Have a look at the source file and see if there is a dynamic variable you can set.
2015-06-03T00:57:57Z pillton: Or a logical pathname.
2015-06-03T00:58:14Z emaczen: in inotify?
2015-06-03T00:58:28Z pillton: I don't know where it is.
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2015-06-03T00:59:00Z Bike: sounds like inotify, unless it's loading another lisp dependency that uses lfp.
2015-06-03T00:59:43Z emaczen: ahhh, yes it is in iolib/syscalls
2015-06-03T01:00:08Z Bike: if iolib is failing to find lfp there's probably something wrong, since lfp was practically written for iolib
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2015-06-03T01:01:26Z emaczen: I'm going to try Ubuntu... lol
2015-06-03T01:01:45Z pillton: It has nothing to do with your OS.
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2015-06-03T01:02:05Z Bike: well, it might, though ubuntu and fedora probably use about the same ld.so
2015-06-03T01:02:10Z pillton: That would be like switching from pencil to pen to solve you math problem.
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2015-06-03T01:03:42Z emaczen: I could probably apt-get install libfixposix right?
2015-06-03T01:04:01Z emaczen: Isn't that what you all did?
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2015-06-03T01:04:22Z Bike: -dev, maybe
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2015-06-03T01:10:09Z pillton: emaczen: Open src/syscalls/ffi-functions-unix.lisp and comment out http://hastebin.com/ximuvifoyo.lisp
2015-06-03T01:10:31Z pillton: Then load the library manually from your implementation's dot file.
2015-06-03T01:10:45Z Bike: link's busted, at least on my end
2015-06-03T01:10:54Z Bike: oh, the .lisp
2015-06-03T01:11:16Z emaczen: pillton where is "src"
2015-06-03T01:11:25Z pillton: iolib/src/..
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2015-06-03T01:18:23Z drmeister: Does someone who understands the printer/reader and circularity detection have a moment to explain why this works?
2015-06-03T01:18:29Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/MoNHCFQp/
2015-06-03T01:18:50Z _schulte_: with cffi, how does one pass the addresses of a value to a C function? e.g., set_foo_in_arg(&arg)?
2015-06-03T01:19:55Z Bike: _schulte_: allocate it in C memory (foreign-alloc, with-foreign-pointer, etc)
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2015-06-03T01:20:34Z Bike: drmeister: foo's print object is recursive, since it just gets format to print the foo-a. that printing happens in the same dynamic extent as the overall printing, so it uses the same circularity checking (hashtable, or whatever)
2015-06-03T01:20:40Z drmeister: I'm defining a PRINT-OBJECT method for a class FOO that prints { FOO :a something } and then a reader macro for #\{ that reads what's between the curly brackets and APPLY's MAKE-INSTANCE.
2015-06-03T01:21:14Z _schulte_: Bike: fantastic! exactly what I needed, thanks
2015-06-03T01:21:23Z Bike: drmeister: btw, (set-macro-character #\} (get-macro-character #\) t) should let you elide the spaces, i think.
2015-06-03T01:21:41Z drmeister: Bike: But MAKE-INSTANCE must be invoked to create the instance of FOO so how does it get the instance of FOO to set the :A initarg?
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2015-06-03T01:22:19Z Bike: oh. hm, yes.
2015-06-03T01:22:27Z drmeister: It's the fixup for circularity that I don't get.  It works - and that's great but I'm banging my head against the wall trying to figure out how #:G598 gets fixed up to be the instance of FOO.
2015-06-03T01:23:50Z Bike: You know, I'm not sure.
2015-06-03T01:23:54Z drmeister: I need to understand this because I want to use a similar scheme to build C++ objects and I'm not sure what is necessary to make it work the same way.
2015-06-03T01:24:23Z Bike: oh, no, wait.
2015-06-03T01:24:32Z drmeister: This is a scheme that beach uses in Cleavir and I cooked up a pathologically circular version of it.
2015-06-03T01:24:55Z drmeister: I've implemented a couple of circularity detectors and I can't figure out how this works - what a trip.
2015-06-03T01:25:04Z drmeister: Yes?
2015-06-03T01:25:26Z Bike: sorry, i haven't really thought of this before.
2015-06-03T01:25:29Z nyef: So, the #:G598 is an obvious placeholder. Is the reader, knowing that it needs to do the backpatch, keeping track of the object CONTAINING that reference?
2015-06-03T01:25:37Z Bike: well, probably what happens is that... right, thank you.
2015-06-03T01:25:51Z Bike: so it makes-instance with some bullshit and alters it later.
2015-06-03T01:26:18Z nyef: Hrm. Except that that doesn't quite work either.
2015-06-03T01:26:28Z Bike: it's kind of hard to imagine how it would work in general, since #\{'s reader is arbitrary code.
2015-06-03T01:27:11Z Bike: like, you could say within a #1=, #1# resolves to (list gensym), and then alter the car later. but that's a list, you need an arbitrary place.
2015-06-03T01:27:52Z Bike: How the fuck does that work? Do you know what part of cleavir this would be in?
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2015-06-03T01:28:00Z Bike: or sicl, or whatever.
2015-06-03T01:28:26Z drmeister: I ran this example in SBCL.
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2015-06-03T01:28:57Z emaczen: pillton: What exactly am I commenting out?
2015-06-03T01:29:04Z nyef: Well, the code is in SYS:SRC;CODE;SHARPM.LISP it seems.
2015-06-03T01:29:11Z nyef: Look for sharp-equal
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2015-06-03T01:29:40Z drmeister: I know where it's in Cleavir.   sicl/Code/Cleavir/Input-output/io.lisp
2015-06-03T01:29:43Z nyef: Ah.
2015-06-03T01:29:50Z Bike: not in the reader? ok.
2015-06-03T01:29:50Z drmeister: I've created a stripped down version.
2015-06-03T01:29:56Z pillton: emaczen: The code a pasted before. That is the code that loads the foreign library.
2015-06-03T01:30:15Z nyef: There's a case here (typep tree 'instance), where it grovels the tagged slots of the instance (meaning struct or class instance).
2015-06-03T01:30:15Z pillton: emaczen: The code I* pasted before sorry.
2015-06-03T01:30:18Z Bike: oh, this is not the reader
2015-06-03T01:30:36Z drmeister: nyef: That is in SBCL?
2015-06-03T01:30:42Z nyef: Means that a suitable type restriction on the structure could kill it.
2015-06-03T01:30:43Z nyef: Yeah.
2015-06-03T01:30:45Z nyef: SBCL.
2015-06-03T01:31:01Z Bike: yeah, i was wondering about that, like having foo-a declared an integer or w/e.
2015-06-03T01:31:13Z drmeister: That may kill my hopes of using this with C++ objects.
2015-06-03T01:31:20Z drmeister: (sigh)
2015-06-03T01:31:25Z nyef: That's what SBCL does.
2015-06-03T01:31:28Z Bike: not really, you'd just add another case to things
2015-06-03T01:31:31Z drmeister: I had a feeling there was a snake in the grass.
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2015-06-03T01:32:02Z nyef: Now, what you could do is make a note of where the placeholder goes so that you can smash it up when you know what the value will be.
2015-06-03T01:32:21Z Bike: ah, sicl's fast reader has (defun sharpsign-function ... ;; define it ... ), nice
2015-06-03T01:32:24Z nyef: But, yeah, you'll probably need to be able to come up with suitably-typed values all over the place.
2015-06-03T01:32:30Z drmeister: Bike: I'd have to be able to grovel the tagged slots of C++ objects.  Maybe that's not so bad.
2015-06-03T01:33:08Z Bike: clhs ##
2015-06-03T01:33:08Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhp.htm
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2015-06-03T01:33:22Z Bike: no help, duh
2015-06-03T01:33:25Z emaczen: pillton: THANKS! I can't believe that worked!
2015-06-03T01:33:55Z Bike: clearly should just switch to lazy evaluation
2015-06-03T01:34:15Z Bike: actually that might work
2015-06-03T01:35:29Z pillton: emaczen: No problem. You should email to get that fixed. It shouldn't be like that.
2015-06-03T01:35:49Z emaczen: Whose problem is that exactly?
2015-06-03T01:36:29Z pillton: iolib. It should either 1) not done at all or 2) moved to iolib/conf so that you can set the path prior to loading the library.
2015-06-03T01:37:21Z Bike: no, hang on, cffi just does define foreign library, which should just use ld, you do the configuration in your os.
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2015-06-03T01:38:08Z pillton: I disagree. I often have multiple versions of the same library installed simultaneously.
2015-06-03T01:38:14Z Bike: no, lazy evaluation can't work. that was stupid
2015-06-03T01:39:09Z pillton: Loading resources is the responsibility of the person doing the deployment, not the library.
2015-06-03T01:39:53Z Bike: alright
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2015-06-03T01:40:22Z emaczen: pillton: Which part was bad?
2015-06-03T01:40:50Z pillton: emaczen: The part I asked you to comment out.
2015-06-03T01:41:12Z emaczen: ok
2015-06-03T01:41:25Z Bike: that would entail some pretty extensive changes in asdf and how systems are written, i think
2015-06-03T01:41:37Z pillton: emaczen: The FIXME says they are aware of it, they just need prodding.
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2015-06-03T01:42:23Z pillton: Bike: Well I am a fan of (asdf:load-system "iolib/conf")  ...set paths ... (asdf:load-system "iolib")
2015-06-03T01:42:45Z Bike: i mean, cos then you'd need a /conf for every library with foreign libraries, no?
2015-06-03T01:42:46Z drmeister: nyef: Where was that in the SBCL code?
2015-06-03T01:43:19Z pillton: Bike: You can do it using logical pathnames too. Personally, I think we need some sort of global configuration file.
2015-06-03T01:43:21Z Bike: drmeister: sb-impl::sharp-sharp, sb-impl::sharp-equal
2015-06-03T01:43:30Z nyef: It's where I said it was: SYS:SRC;CODE;SHARPM.LISP, look for sharp-equal.
2015-06-03T01:43:55Z Bike: pillton: right, i mean you'd have your asdf system say it has a foreign dependency on libfixposix, and then asdf/your implementation/i don't know checks a global table
2015-06-03T01:44:02Z drmeister: nyef: Sorry, I missed that.
2015-06-03T01:44:43Z Bike: circle-subst is the magic
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2015-06-03T01:45:30Z Bike: instance and funcallable-instance are different, noice.
2015-06-03T01:45:46Z drmeister: Clasp's circle-subst doesn't do that.  The last evaluation (foo-a *z*) --> #:G1696 on Clasp.
2015-06-03T01:45:50Z drmeister: That makes sense.
2015-06-03T01:46:02Z pillton: Bike: Yep. Something like that.
2015-06-03T01:46:04Z drmeister: nyef, Bike - thank you very much for your help.
2015-06-03T01:46:16Z nyef: 'Swhat we're here for.
2015-06-03T01:47:02Z Bike: integrating cffi with asdf sounds nicer than define-foreign-library like i do now, maybe you should bug... whoever's in charge of cffi
2015-06-03T01:47:18Z Bike: i think cffi does have mechanisms to configure the searching, maybe
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2015-06-03T01:49:07Z pillton: Well I prefer using rpath over directory searching. I know what I am using.
2015-06-03T01:49:29Z Bike: right. *foreign-library-directories*. "You should not have to use this variable". now i remember
2015-06-03T01:50:30Z Bike: rpath means baking in the physical pathname? so you have to recompile if it moves/you want to switch versions/etc?
2015-06-03T01:50:55Z pillton: Bike: Yep.
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2015-06-03T01:57:28Z drmeister: It looks like I'd have to provide a way of groveling the slots (relatively easy) and then I'd have to ignore the type of the slot temporarily until it gets fixed up.
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2015-06-03T01:59:14Z drmeister: What is a "tagged" slot vs an "untagged" slot?
2015-06-03T01:59:49Z Bike: tagged slot is like a packed array
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2015-06-03T02:00:50Z nyef: Other way around, surely?
2015-06-03T02:01:22Z nyef: An "untagged" slot is for things that are not represented as lisp pointers/immediates. Things like word-sized integers, floats, stuff like that.
2015-06-03T02:01:33Z drmeister: Hmm - sorry, I don't understand.   instances have tagged slots and untagged slots.  Can only tagged slots contain references to objects?  Do they mean like tagged pointers?
2015-06-03T02:01:41Z nyef: Exactly.
2015-06-03T02:01:54Z nyef: Untagged slots can't hold object references, and are ignored by the GC.
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2015-06-03T02:02:24Z drmeister: Oh, I see.
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2015-06-03T02:04:00Z drmeister: So I need to provide a way of indexing into the tagged slots of the C++ objects and reading and writing those slots.
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2015-06-03T02:04:40Z drmeister: I know I'm repeating myself.  That last post was with a good deal more conviction than the previous ones.
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2015-06-03T02:05:38Z nyef: I've done enough thrashing myself over the past few days, I know where you're coming from there. (-:
2015-06-03T02:07:36Z brucem: Bike: rpaths are a bit more flexible on OS X than on Linux. And on Linux (and FreeBSD), you don't have to bake in the full (absolute) physical path name if you use $ORIGIN (and the right linker flag).
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2015-06-03T02:12:35Z drmeister: I guess I have to provide fixup for hash-tables as well.  Keys and values - tricky.
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2015-06-03T02:28:27Z nyef: drmeister: Mind the weakness of the hash-table, as well. (-:
2015-06-03T02:28:51Z drmeister: For printing weak hash tables?
2015-06-03T02:29:06Z nyef: For doing the sharp-equal reader thing.
2015-06-03T02:29:29Z drmeister: Could you elaborate on that?
2015-06-03T02:30:32Z nyef: I'm half-suggesting that there may be trouble if you use a transient/temporary key or value if the table is weak in that direction.
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2015-06-03T02:30:59Z nyef: Or maybe it was the other direction. Really not sure.
2015-06-03T02:31:10Z drmeister: Yeah, I'll have to think about it.
2015-06-03T02:31:43Z drmeister: I didn't think about serializing weak hash tables.
2015-06-03T02:34:08Z Bike: add a test for serializing a weak hash table with itself as a key and as a value, very useful
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2015-06-03T02:59:38Z loke: Hello Bike. Here's your picture:
2015-06-03T02:59:38Z loke: http://www.postvintage.org.au/wp-content/uploads/Penny-Fathing-2.jpg
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2015-06-03T03:01:06Z nyef: Now THERE'S a bicycle. How do you even get onto one of those?
2015-06-03T03:01:18Z loke: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny-farthing#/media/File:Velocipedist.JPG
2015-06-03T03:01:32Z loke: There is a ladder on the back
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2015-06-03T03:02:55Z loke: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p--RKyDFIAk
2015-06-03T03:03:38Z loke: Looks easy enough
2015-06-03T03:04:19Z nyef: Yeah, just found a different video for it.
2015-06-03T03:04:30Z nyef: Now I'm kindof tempted. (-:
2015-06-03T03:04:39Z loke: I'd love to try one
2015-06-03T03:04:43Z Brozo: that's freaky
2015-06-03T03:04:52Z Bike: http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=331
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2015-06-03T03:23:28Z drmeister: Bike: Could you elaborate on the idea of adding a test for serializing a weak hash table with itself as a key and as a value
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2015-06-03T03:24:21Z Bike: half-joking. it's just an extreme instance of what you're working on.
2015-06-03T03:25:04Z Bike: you have to worry about weakness and self-referencing structures at the same time, that's all.
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2015-06-03T03:34:49Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-06-03T03:34:56Z loke: Hello beach!
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2015-06-03T03:35:05Z drmeister: Hi beach.
2015-06-03T03:35:08Z loke: What's happening on the beach today?
2015-06-03T03:35:17Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-06-03T03:35:28Z beach: loke: Wouldn't know.
2015-06-03T03:36:13Z loke: brucem: Solaris also has the $ORIGIN feature (in fact, I think it started there)
2015-06-03T03:36:36Z brucem: loke: ahh, okay. I only spoke of what I've actually used / deployed. :)
2015-06-03T03:37:18Z loke: I was desperately looking for the corresponding feature on Linux, and I came away with the impression that it's not actually possible. Quite terrible.
2015-06-03T03:37:33Z drmeister: beach: I got printing of C++ objects to work somewhat - but fixing up circularity in the C++ objects turns out to require some specialized code.  It requires groveling over the tagged slots of the C++ objects, looking for tags that are replaced with values.
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2015-06-03T03:38:42Z beach: drmeister: Yeah, a Common Lisp must do something similar with Common Lisp objects, i.e., traverse them and look for the temporary value to replace.
2015-06-03T03:38:52Z brucem: loke: $ORIGIN on Linux (and FreeBSD) is really limited compared to the rpath handling and variables that OS X allows. :/  (But on OS X, it isn't documented entirely well so it is confusing as to what a best practice is...) (and LLDB didn't correctly support some rpath stuff well up until about 12 hours ago)
2015-06-03T03:39:14Z drmeister: beach: Yes, that complicates my life considerably.
2015-06-03T03:40:59Z drmeister: Would it not have been better to do things in two stages (1) allocate objects, (2) initialize them?
2015-06-03T03:42:31Z beach: drmeister: Maybe so.  I haven't thought about that.  Maybe you can implement #n# and #n= in Clasp that way.
2015-06-03T03:42:53Z drmeister: Hmm, interesting idea - is that allowed?
2015-06-03T03:43:21Z drmeister: I guess as long as the semantics are the same...
2015-06-03T03:43:27Z beach: I don't recall seeing any restriction on how those macro characters are implemented.
2015-06-03T03:43:41Z Bike: it's how load forms work~
2015-06-03T03:43:53Z beach: There might be some other requirement that prevents it, but I haven't thought about it.
2015-06-03T03:43:57Z Bike: but, #n# and all need to work with arbitrary reader macros, which isn't great
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2015-06-03T03:44:46Z nyef: This and the #S reader are the main things that make a "portable" reader implementation impossible, aren't they?
2015-06-03T03:45:00Z Bike: ooh, let's see what pjb does.
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2015-06-03T03:45:45Z Bike: still on gitorious, which will shut down in the end of may
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2015-06-03T03:46:08Z Quadrescence: it would be nice if reader macros could somehow access the #n "environment"
2015-06-03T03:46:35Z Bike: well, then you'd have to standardize what could be bound there.
2015-06-03T03:47:04Z Quadrescence: could it not just be some object comparable by identity
2015-06-03T03:47:24Z Quadrescence: which the reader patches afterwards or something
2015-06-03T03:47:33Z Bike: well, i guess, but then how would you write drmeister's {?
2015-06-03T03:47:44Z Bike: it returns an actual object, which has to be edited after the {} form is read
2015-06-03T03:48:13Z Quadrescence: CHANGE-CLASS!
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2015-06-03T03:48:31Z Quadrescence: or something, im not sure :)
2015-06-03T03:48:39Z drmeister: Nope, can't change-class with builtin objects.
2015-06-03T03:48:48Z Bike: it's just a setf slot, but you have to arrange for that to be executed at some point.
2015-06-03T03:49:52Z Bike: you could like... the reader could include a dynamic variable or something with functions to do the patching.
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2015-06-03T03:50:58Z Bike: so you'd have { do (let ((object (make-instance ...))) (add-patcher n (lambda (val) (setf (i-forgot-the-accessor object) val))) object)
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2015-06-03T03:51:50Z Quadrescence: sounds like a mostly reasonable solution
2015-06-03T03:52:03Z Bike: geez, pjb's got a whole float reader in here.
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2015-06-03T03:52:28Z Quadrescence: Bike, it gets executed at the end of the #n= macro I would assume, maybe
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2015-06-03T03:52:49Z Bike: Right.
2015-06-03T03:53:01Z drmeister: Bike - what is the "n" parameter to add-patcher?
2015-06-03T03:53:09Z drmeister: The #n= "n"?
2015-06-03T03:53:12Z Bike: the reference number. like in #37=() it would be 37.
2015-06-03T03:53:34Z drmeister: I'm trying to parse your suggestion.
2015-06-03T03:53:37Z Quadrescence: Bike, except you can do this:
2015-06-03T03:53:37Z Quadrescence: ? (list #1=(cons 1 1) #1#)
2015-06-03T03:53:38Z Quadrescence: ((1 . 1) (1 . 1))
2015-06-03T03:54:02Z Bike: the idea is that #n= reads an unpatched object, executes all the patchers that have been accumulated during reading (passing them the unpatched object), and then returns the now patched object.
2015-06-03T03:54:24Z Bike: Quadrescence: have add-patcher be a no-op if out of the context of n?
2015-06-03T03:55:03Z Bike: er, uh.
2015-06-03T03:55:24Z Bike: okay, with my { you actually have to have the macro figure out which slots need replacing, right.
2015-06-03T03:56:02Z Bike: by the way, if i'm not mistaken pjb's ## reader doesn't handle the recursive case.
2015-06-03T03:56:20Z drmeister: I don't see how this improves on the current situation.
2015-06-03T03:56:25Z Bike: https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/source/a1ef00b115d7a0fdcc33edf5da94c19f7892277e:common-lisp/lisp-reader/reader.lisp#L1497-
2015-06-03T03:56:29Z Bike: wow.
2015-06-03T03:56:46Z Bike: oh, that link actually works, great.
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2015-06-03T03:57:31Z Bike: drmeister: you could have the patcher function just use the regular (&portable) object accessors rather than you making a way to iterate over the slots.
2015-06-03T03:57:55Z Bike: drmeister: but, this is pretty abstract, you should probably just do that first and we can talk about this extension shit some other time.
2015-06-03T03:57:59Z Bike: beach: any opinion, btw?
2015-06-03T03:59:48Z drmeister: Another idea is to pass the patch map to each object and let it patch itself up.
2015-06-03T04:00:24Z Bike: how would the object know when to do anything?
2015-06-03T04:00:39Z beach: Bike: Sorry, not quite awake yet.  Opinion on what?
2015-06-03T04:00:47Z drmeister: I suggest that because the object may or may not have accessors for the slot.
2015-06-03T04:00:49Z Bike: all this recursive ## stuff.
2015-06-03T04:01:19Z beach: I think I know how it is done in (say) SBCL.
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2015-06-03T04:01:40Z Bike: it iterates over the slots. non portable, etc
2015-06-03T04:01:44Z beach: Yeah.
2015-06-03T04:02:10Z beach: Well, it might be portable if you count the MOP.
2015-06-03T04:03:44Z drmeister: This is how I serialize and deserialize the slots at the moment (C++)
2015-06-03T04:03:46Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/EsD0Jig5/
2015-06-03T04:05:24Z drmeister: The Record_sp object knows if it's serializing or deserializing and it either generates output from the field or reads into the field.  I could add a third facility, one that patches the field if it contains a tag that matches a key in the patch map.
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2015-06-03T04:05:27Z beach: ... and I agree that it would seem difficult to do it differently, given arbitrary reader macros etc.
2015-06-03T04:06:04Z drmeister: This facility would ignore fields that are not tagged.
2015-06-03T04:06:26Z drmeister: All done with C++ template programming.
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2015-06-03T04:07:48Z drmeister: Then any C++ class that is exposed to Common Lisp would only need to provide a "fields" virtual function.
2015-06-03T04:08:47Z Bike: well you have to get untagged fields too for this, doncha?
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2015-06-03T04:09:37Z drmeister: Yes.  But the template code would nop those.
2015-06-03T04:09:56Z Bike: i mean, you have to patch them too, possibly.
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2015-06-03T04:10:15Z drmeister: Do I?
2015-06-03T04:10:23Z Bike: sure?
2015-06-03T04:10:31Z Bike: untagged slot means a slot with a general pointer, yes?
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2015-06-03T04:11:28Z drmeister: I don't think so.  An untagged slot would be something like a C++ int or a double precision value.
2015-06-03T04:12:18Z drmeister: When writing a double would get converted to a unique DOUBLE-FLOAT.
2015-06-03T04:12:54Z drmeister: I don't think they would ever be patched.
2015-06-03T04:13:03Z Bike: ...okay, guess i'm thinking backwards, sorry.
2015-06-03T04:13:14Z drmeister: No - it's ok, this is really helpful.
2015-06-03T04:14:53Z drmeister: Actually, I'm certain of it.   An untagged slot would never generate a #n# tag.  They are only generated if the value is EQ to a value that was already written and assigned a #n= tag.
2015-06-03T04:15:22Z drmeister: That's because untagged slots are run through my to_object converters and they always generate unique values.
2015-06-03T04:15:42Z Bike: well, you wouldn't recursively run into a #n# that's an integer or float or something, sure.
2015-06-03T04:15:47Z drmeister: Well, wait, that may not be true.
2015-06-03T04:16:00Z Bike: "recursively" being a key, but non-recursively, the job's much easier.
2015-06-03T04:16:09Z drmeister: Enums generate symbols.  Symbols should not be unique.  Hmmm.
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2015-06-03T04:18:26Z drmeister: An untagged field can't store a tag in the first place.
2015-06-03T04:19:27Z Bike: pjb's reader's float reader doesn't seem all that good, but i don't know much about all that.
2015-06-03T04:19:50Z beach: Bike: There is a paper on float reading and writing.
2015-06-03T04:20:00Z Bike: several, as far as i can tell
2015-06-03T04:20:10Z beach: Yes, but one "ultimate" paper.
2015-06-03T04:20:15Z drmeister: Is every tag fixed up? Or just problematic ones that involve circular references?
2015-06-03T04:20:31Z Bike: bcl's implementation cites one or another and the code works fine indepdently
2015-06-03T04:20:44Z Bike: drmeister: just recursive ones, if you have #1=closed_object #1# you can just have #1# read as the object
2015-06-03T04:20:47Z Bike: sbcl's*
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2015-06-03T04:21:13Z drmeister: If that's the case then that solves my non-tagged problem.
2015-06-03T04:21:26Z Bike: er, i'm thinking of the writing algorithm, not reading (re floats, not ##)
2015-06-03T04:21:36Z beach: Bike: David M. Gay: Correctly Rounded Binary-Decimal and Decimal-Binary Conversions.
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2015-06-03T04:23:34Z Bike: sb-impl::flonum-to-digits cites... "Burger and Dybvig, 1996"
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2015-06-03T04:24:18Z beach: Bike: Ah, that's more recent.
2015-06-03T04:25:15Z drmeister: Bike: Does "sb-impl::flonum-to-digits cites... "Burger and Dybvig, 1996"" refer to my issue or is it part of a similar but parallel discussion?
2015-06-03T04:25:29Z Bike: a not very similar but parallel discussion, sorry
2015-06-03T04:25:56Z drmeister: No, it's ok - I was having difficulty parsing out what was what.
2015-06-03T04:26:19Z Bike: drmeister: let me lay out my understanding of ## for you. first, you have the reader overall set up a couple tables for ##, and make sure not to override them inappropriately if the reader is called recursively.
2015-06-03T04:26:30Z beach: Bike: I have read that paper in the past, but must have forgotten about it.  Thanks for reminding me.
2015-06-03T04:26:40Z drmeister: Sure.
2015-06-03T04:26:51Z Bike: second, you have the ## reader dynamically set something or another as it reads, indicating that the forms inside should be aware that they're inside a ## read.
2015-06-03T04:26:57Z Bike: wow, #=, oops.
2015-06-03T04:27:21Z drmeister: I'm following.
2015-06-03T04:27:41Z Bike: third you have ## check to see whether the id is recursive or nonrecursive; if it's recursive you set up a patch (put in a temporary gensym or whatever), if it's nonrecursive you just retrieve the complete object from a table and return that.
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2015-06-03T04:28:11Z Bike: finally, when a #='s read finishes, you take the unpatched object constructed, patch it with information from the dynamic table, and return it.
2015-06-03T04:28:56Z Bike: you can see how the nonrecursive case works from pjb's code https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/source/a1ef00b115d7a0fdcc33edf5da94c19f7892277e:common-lisp/lisp-reader/reader.lisp#L1497-
2015-06-03T04:29:01Z Bike: it's quite simple and portable.
2015-06-03T04:29:34Z drmeister: I've implemented #n= and #n# a couple of times (borrowing from other implementations) a couple of years ago.   I forgot how they handled recursive circularity. When I looked into my code (after nyef pointed me to the SBCL version) I realized that I'd commented out the instance slot patching because I didn't understand how to make it work with Clasp at the
2015-06-03T04:29:35Z drmeister: time.
2015-06-03T04:30:17Z Bike: well it seems like you've basically got it now.
2015-06-03T04:30:21Z beach: With the MOP, it ought to be possible to patch standard objects.
2015-06-03T04:30:41Z Bike: there's still struct objects, and drmeister is worried about C++ things.
2015-06-03T04:30:52Z beach: I know.  Just thinking out loud.
2015-06-03T04:30:54Z drmeister: Everything is complicated for me because I'm trying to figure out how to print/read/patch arbitrary C++ objects.
2015-06-03T04:30:58Z Bike: oh, sorry
2015-06-03T04:31:05Z drmeister: Without having to write a lot of boilerplate code.
2015-06-03T04:31:18Z Bike: well, have you got metaclass objects for C++ objects?
2015-06-03T04:31:46Z drmeister: Yes, I have metaclass objects for C++, but they don't know much about the objects that they represent.
2015-06-03T04:31:50Z Bike: like, you have a cando:tyrosine class, can you do (class-slots 'cando:tyrosine)? that's pretty well all you need.
2015-06-03T04:31:57Z Bike: might want to make it more extensive, then
2015-06-03T04:32:11Z beach: For SICL, since I plan to make struct objects and built-in objects similar to standard objects, I can probably use the same mechanism for everything.
2015-06-03T04:32:53Z drmeister: Ugh, that requires a lot more work.   I ended up writing a static analyzer to support the MPS garbage collector.  I don't want to do it by hand.
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2015-06-03T04:33:13Z Bike: seems like something the static analyzer would report...
2015-06-03T04:33:21Z Bike: does it not already give you the slots and whether they're tagged?
2015-06-03T04:33:21Z drmeister: It is.
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2015-06-03T04:33:28Z Bike: i mean, i thought you'd need that for mps anyway
2015-06-03T04:33:53Z drmeister: Yes it does.  But there is a bootstrapping issue.  The Boehm version can't count on the static analyzer.
2015-06-03T04:34:17Z beach: Why do you need serialization during bootstrapping?
2015-06-03T04:34:21Z Bike: eh, well for this reader stuff you've practically got a complete system already, surely.
2015-06-03T04:34:23Z Bike: yeah that.
2015-06-03T04:35:00Z drmeister: Now that you mention it, I don't.
2015-06-03T04:35:37Z drmeister: So I could add the facility to the static analyzer to generate serialization fixup code.
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2015-06-03T04:36:36Z drmeister: But I can do this with C++ template programming as well. The C++ compiler knows what is a tagged slot and what isn't.
2015-06-03T04:36:40Z drmeister: Hmmm.
2015-06-03T04:37:12Z Bike: oh, wait, christ, so this can't be happening dynamically. what a pain.
2015-06-03T04:37:31Z beach: drmeister: What is a "tagged slot" again?
2015-06-03T04:37:39Z drmeister: Rather, of the slots that I serialize, the C++ compiler knows what is a "tagged slot".
2015-06-03T04:37:43Z Bike: a slot with a full lisp object in it
2015-06-03T04:37:46Z drmeister: It's a smart_ptr.
2015-06-03T04:38:01Z Bike: as opposed to an int or something. it's like packed arrays (or, nyef says, packed arrays are like this)
2015-06-03T04:38:07Z drmeister: Yes, a slot that can point to a lisp object.
2015-06-03T04:38:46Z beach: Have you eliminated raw C++ pointers altogether?
2015-06-03T04:38:50Z drmeister: In Clasp, I can define C++ classes that contain smart_ptr<...> and raw C++ data types willy nilly, in any order.
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2015-06-03T04:39:30Z drmeister: beach: Yes.  I only use raw C++ pointers for non-GC objects.
2015-06-03T04:39:45Z beach: And such objects don't need to be serialized?
2015-06-03T04:39:56Z drmeister: A tagged pointer is one that the GC needs to manage.  Something that points into GC managed memory.
2015-06-03T04:40:23Z beach: Sorry, I should have asked "Do non-GC objects ever need to be serialized"?
2015-06-03T04:40:47Z drmeister: beach: No, they do need to be serialized.   class Vector3_O : public T_O { ... double x; double y; double z; ... } needs to be serialized.
2015-06-03T04:41:06Z drmeister: The x,y,z coordinates are converted into unique DOUBLE-FLOAT values on the fly.
2015-06-03T04:41:41Z beach: So your example above is a GC object since it needs to be serialized?
2015-06-03T04:41:58Z loke: drmeister: My clasp still doesn't build
2015-06-03T04:42:00Z loke: help?
2015-06-03T04:42:24Z drmeister: Yes, an instance of Vector3_O will be in GC managed memory.
2015-06-03T04:42:50Z drmeister: But it doesn't contain any pointers itself.
2015-06-03T04:43:16Z drmeister: loke: OS X or Linux (and we could take it to #clasp)
2015-06-03T04:43:23Z loke: Linux
2015-06-03T04:43:31Z drmeister: Which distro?
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2015-06-03T04:43:37Z loke: Arch
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2015-06-03T04:44:04Z loke: I'm running make again so that I can give you the error I got
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2015-06-03T04:45:39Z drmeister: loke: Shinmera developed an installer/package/whatever for Arch.  If you drop in to #clasp tomorrow during the day he could point you to it.
2015-06-03T04:45:42Z jasom: are defvars available at macroexpand time for the same file?
2015-06-03T04:45:50Z jasom: or do I need an eval-when
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2015-06-03T04:47:08Z Bike: You mean the value?
2015-06-03T04:47:26Z drmeister: jasom: Or the specialness?
2015-06-03T04:47:28Z jasom: If a defvar or defparameter form appears as a top level form, the compiler must recognize that the name has been proclaimed special. However, it must neither evaluate the initial-value form nor assign the dynamic variable named name at compile time. y
2015-06-03T04:47:36Z jasom: I meant the value, so that's a no
2015-06-03T04:47:49Z Bike: yeah, you need an eval-when
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2015-06-03T05:00:06Z loke: My clasp is still trying to build
2015-06-03T05:00:19Z loke: The build is very, very slow. Why is that?
2015-06-03T05:01:31Z drmeister: Here's an example of what I'm getting at:
2015-06-03T05:01:33Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/6DMv66xa/
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2015-06-03T05:02:03Z drmeister: This is Clasp code that uses my chemistry classes to read a Fortran formatted file that describes rules for assigning atom types.
2015-06-03T05:02:24Z drmeister: The last "prin1" statement generates this:
2015-06-03T05:02:26Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/g0t7GjQf/
2015-06-03T05:02:44Z drmeister: Lots of #n= and #n# in there.
2015-06-03T05:02:56Z drmeister: And nested C++ classes.
2015-06-03T05:03:31Z drmeister: The Fortran formatted file that it read is this:
2015-06-03T05:03:32Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/r5eCiq5I/
2015-06-03T05:03:57Z Bike: "{#4# #1# #A(#2# (3) (#11# #10# #7#))}" is a triumph, though i don't know what in
2015-06-03T05:04:04Z drmeister: I didn't write the Fortran formatted file.  It is part of the GAFF (Generalized Amber Force Field)
2015-06-03T05:04:12Z Bike: octothorpe density, maybe
2015-06-03T05:04:25Z drmeister: Yes - it is beautiful in a way isn't it?
2015-06-03T05:04:55Z drmeister: That's the value of using symbols rather than strings to name everything.  It's very dense but not human readable.
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2015-06-03T05:05:25Z drmeister: I'm pretty sure recursive circularity doesn't even come up.
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2015-06-03T05:05:47Z drmeister: loke: It takes a long time to compile because it starts out running a Common Lisp interpreter.
2015-06-03T05:05:58Z Bike: well, it doesn't look like the lines refer to one another.
2015-06-03T05:07:05Z drmeister: In this case they don't.  Other data structures may. So while I'm working on it - I should get it right.
2015-06-03T05:07:44Z emaczen: What is the equivalent of char buf[100] for cffi?
2015-06-03T05:08:11Z Bike: emaczen: mem-aref
2015-06-03T05:08:19Z Bike: emaczen: er, no, you mean stack allocation
2015-06-03T05:08:52Z emaczen: (defcvar buf char[100]) ?
2015-06-03T05:08:56Z Bike: there's with-foreign-string, with-foreign-pointer-as-string, etc
2015-06-03T05:08:59Z Bike: oh. that.
2015-06-03T05:09:06Z Bike: it's a (:pointer :char).
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2015-06-03T05:09:53Z emaczen: What are the other two you mentioned used for?
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2015-06-03T05:10:22Z Bike: those aren't types, they're macros. i thought you wanted to know how to allocate a buffer, rather than how to access an already existing buffer.
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2015-06-03T05:14:48Z emaczen: is cffi similar to SBCLs ffi?
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2015-06-03T05:15:44Z Bike: it is a wrapper around sbcl's ffi (and ccl's ffi, etc)
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2015-06-03T05:16:07Z emaczen: Ahhh I see
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2015-06-03T05:41:56Z emaczen: I can't seem to find how I can set a foreign variable
2015-06-03T05:42:04Z emaczen: For example (defcvar len :int)
2015-06-03T05:42:11Z emaczen: how can I set the value of len?
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2015-06-03T05:48:33Z small-wolf: are there non-historical reasons why are types and classes are separate in common lisp?
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2015-06-03T05:52:24Z Shinmera: types can be arbitrarily complex (see SATISFIES) which would be a real hit in performance on generic dispatch.
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2015-06-03T05:53:24Z Shinmera: And you couldn't really compute the precedence list with arbitrary types.
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2015-06-03T05:53:44Z Shinmera: So you couldn't compute the proper order of the methods to begin with.
2015-06-03T05:54:26Z small-wolf: what is the method resolution order? I tried hunting around for it a few days ago but failed to find a good article/explanation
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2015-06-03T05:54:47Z Shinmera: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Method-combination.png
2015-06-03T05:55:13Z Shinmera: That's for the standard method combination. You can also add your own that order things differently.
2015-06-03T05:55:20Z beach: small-wolf: What do you mean by "method resolution order"?
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2015-06-03T05:56:19Z beach: small-wolf: Methods are not really "resolved".  An "effective method" is computed from a bunch of "applicable methods" according to the "method combination" for that particular generic function.
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2015-06-03T05:57:38Z beach: small-wolf: And to complement what Shinmera said before, the creators of the Common Lisp standard were very concerned about performance.  Since they didn't know how to make CLOS dispatch work on arbitrary types while preserving performance, they kept the two concepts separate.
2015-06-03T05:58:57Z small-wolf: ah okay I think I get the terminology a little better now, what's the rule for which concrete method you dispatch to in a generic function?
2015-06-03T05:59:02Z beach: small-wolf: Creators of more "modern" languages don't seem to care so much about performance, so they happily add features that make it impossible to generate efficient code, at least with techniques that we know today.
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2015-06-03T06:00:18Z beach: clhs standard
2015-06-03T06:00:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_ffb.htm
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2015-06-03T06:01:19Z beach: small-wolf: Assuming you mean the rules for computing an effective method in the standard method combination, see that link.
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2015-06-03T06:02:37Z small-wolf: now I'm more confused. this seems to be simultaneously talking about advice and dispatch rules. I think of those as separate concepts.
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2015-06-03T06:03:06Z beach: There is nothing about "advice" on that page.
2015-06-03T06:03:12Z Shinmera: What's "advice"?
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2015-06-03T06:03:35Z small-wolf: :around, :before, :after ... you add those to functions using defadvice in elisp
2015-06-03T06:03:43Z Shinmera: Well this isn't elisp.
2015-06-03T06:04:02Z beach: small-wolf: This channel is exclusively about Common Lisp.
2015-06-03T06:04:34Z Shinmera: Thinking in terms of other languages will lead you to confusion.
2015-06-03T06:05:47Z Shinmera: It's better to try to clear your mind of what you know, and look at it without assuming to know anything about it.
2015-06-03T06:05:49Z small-wolf: I think the facility was called advice in maclisp and flavors, and several languages inherited the feature, but point taken.
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2015-06-03T06:07:06Z beach: small-wolf: Semantically speaking, for a given call, all applicable methods are determined.  Then those methods are combined into an effective method using the method combination for that generic function.  Finally, the effective method is called.  That's all there is to it.
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2015-06-03T06:07:58Z beach: By "semantically speaking" I mean that there is typically a lot of caching involved, so that this work does not have to be done for each call.
2015-06-03T06:08:35Z Shinmera: In CL each method has a set of qualifiers and specializers. The specializer set has to be compatible with the lambda-list of the generic function the method belongs to. The qualifier set has to be compatible with the method combination of the generic function.
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2015-06-03T06:09:21Z Shinmera: The qualifiers determine which "group" of methods it belongs to in the dispatch sequence, and the specializers determine the "order".
2015-06-03T06:09:59Z beach: "specificity"?
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2015-06-03T06:10:44Z Shinmera: Well... yeah. It gets complicated, since the method combination can do practically whatever it wants with the qualifiers and specializers it gets.
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2015-06-03T06:11:29Z small-wolf: okay so I get that for a particular value, any two applicable types can be ordered by specificity ... right?
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2015-06-03T06:11:47Z Shinmera: Types cannot, but classes can.
2015-06-03T06:11:59Z beach: small-wolf: There is no such thing as "applicable type".
2015-06-03T06:12:03Z small-wolf: right. types are arbitrarily complex. classes are not.
2015-06-03T06:12:24Z beach: small-wolf: Classes are not order by specificity.  Methods are.
2015-06-03T06:13:10Z small-wolf: but at least in principle, there is such an order, right?
2015-06-03T06:13:15Z beach: small-wolf: And classes are not applicable.  Methods are applicable to arguments of certain classes.
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2015-06-03T06:13:51Z Shinmera: small-wolf: There is such an order for a given set of arguments to a generic function.
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2015-06-03T06:14:20Z beach: Classes are ordered by the class precedence list.
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2015-06-03T06:14:45Z small-wolf: awesome. Does that order privilege "lefter" arguments?
2015-06-03T06:15:02Z beach: small-wolf: By default, yes, but you can change that.
2015-06-03T06:15:13Z beach: mop generic-function-argument-precedence-order
2015-06-03T06:15:13Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/generic-function-argument-precedence-order.html
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2015-06-03T06:18:47Z beach supposes he could have typed g-f-a-p-o instead.
2015-06-03T06:19:06Z beach: mop c-a-m-u-c
2015-06-03T06:19:07Z specbot: compute-applicable-methods-using-classes: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/compute-applicable-methods-using-classes.html
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2015-06-03T06:20:22Z small-wolf: wait but one of my methods can specialize on (wrong word?) a single value right?
2015-06-03T06:20:44Z beach: mop c-a-m
2015-06-03T06:20:44Z specbot: compute-applicable-methods: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/compute-applicable-methods.html
2015-06-03T06:20:58Z beach: small-wolf: Yes, with EQL specializers.
2015-06-03T06:24:19Z beach heaves a sigh of relief that there is no generic function named find-unused-class-keywords.
2015-06-03T06:26:07Z beach: small-wolf: Here is a complete HTMLized version of chapters 5 and 6 from the AMOP: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/
2015-06-03T06:26:20Z Shinmera: The pure innocence of lisp programmers would be ruined if they found the shorthant!
2015-06-03T06:26:26Z Shinmera: *shorthand
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2015-06-03T06:35:00Z kami: Good morning.
2015-06-03T06:35:19Z beach: Hello kami.
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2015-06-03T06:46:11Z beach: Time to get to work!
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2015-06-03T06:47:49Z pillton: Zhivago jasom Bike: I got the templated functions working.
2015-06-03T06:47:54Z pillton: Zhivago jasom Bike: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149041
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2015-06-03T09:17:58Z otsotsots: Hi #lisp. I am looking for the most up-to-date and/or convenient way of sending commands to gnuplot from a lisp-file or from SLIME. I have looked at cgn, but it has been removed (?) from quicklisp, so it seems like a risky bet. Are there some most-popular choice? BR ots
2015-06-03T09:18:23Z otsotsots: there are several small projects on github, but I would prefer one which has some user-base to draw experience from...
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2015-06-03T09:28:01Z loke: otsotsots: Just write the output to a file and run gnuplot on it
2015-06-03T09:28:11Z loke: otsotsots: gnuplot doesn't have an API, so that's pretty much the only way.
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2015-06-03T09:31:15Z otsotsots_: ok thank you loke. That's what I am doing now. But the edges around such a solution are very rough:P
2015-06-03T09:31:30Z loke: otsotsots: How so?
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2015-06-03T09:33:28Z otsotsots_: I want to restrict what part of my dataset i am sending to gnuplot. Which comes very naturally doing in lisp since I create the data in lisp. I have not invested much time in making such a workflow pretty, since I hoped for some direct connection.
2015-06-03T09:33:56Z otsotsots_: but I guess it can be good once i commit to it.
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2015-06-03T09:36:06Z dim: can you replace gnuplot with a full CL based solution maybe?
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2015-06-03T09:38:59Z otsotsots_: Maybe:) which one would that be? There is a certain paralysis of choice when it comes to doing things in CL ... (I am semi-noob by now)
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2015-06-03T09:39:39Z loke: otsotsots_: Thankfully when it comes to graphing, you don't have much choice.
2015-06-03T09:41:24Z otsotsots_: loke: ok suggestion?
2015-06-03T09:41:35Z loke: None :-)
2015-06-03T09:41:38Z loke: I mean :-(
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2015-06-03T09:44:44Z otsotsots_: loke : ok that made more sense:) It is slightly surprising given lisp's academic background. I will go with some gnuplot-interface thingy and hope it turns out to be good enough.
2015-06-03T09:44:57Z otsotsots_: thank you for your suggestions
2015-06-03T09:45:05Z loke: You can use GTK+ and create a full user interface I guess?
2015-06-03T09:45:20Z H4ns: you can also just generate some svg
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2015-06-03T09:45:34Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: hi
2015-06-03T09:45:51Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: I found that hunchentoot does not work with ecl :(
2015-06-03T09:46:12Z H4ns: otsotsots_: that won't give you the fancy axis annotations etc that gnuplot has, but there is plenty of information on svg on the net and it is relatively easy to create something decent with it.
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2015-06-03T09:46:41Z otsotsots_: mm. Ill look into that some. but it might be overkill.
2015-06-03T09:47:22Z H4ns: otsotsots_: underkill maybe
2015-06-03T09:47:29Z otsotsots_: i dont think i need fancy, but every now and then it might be usefull. 99% of the time simple is enough, but then someone wants something pretty
2015-06-03T09:47:43Z loke: Posterdati: it doesn't?
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2015-06-03T09:48:13Z otsotsots_: i guess that is what most good plotting libs do, can do simple plots directly and advanced stuff in the end.
2015-06-03T09:48:46Z dim: if you're about to produce a file, what about .tex with tikz then?
2015-06-03T09:48:52Z H4ns: otsotsots_: hence svg
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2015-06-03T09:49:20Z dim: also, http://cliki.net/plotting
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2015-06-03T09:50:55Z dim: http://wcp.sdf-eu.org/software/clot/index.html isn't that ugly
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2015-06-03T09:52:16Z otsotsots_: dim half of those links are pointing to very old projects. which makes me hesitant to invest time figuring out if they are good.
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2015-06-03T09:52:29Z dim: frankly when I needed to output some graphics I've been using either javascript libs or tikz recently
2015-06-03T09:52:29Z otsotsots_: dim: but yes wcp looks decent enough
2015-06-03T09:52:36Z Shinmera: You might also be able to get smoke to generate wrappers for QtCharts, which would allow you to use it through CommonQt.
2015-06-03T09:52:36Z otsotsots_: sorry I mean CLOT
2015-06-03T09:52:44Z Shinmera makes a TODO to try that
2015-06-03T09:53:03Z dim: highcharts and d3js in javascript are quite good, highcharts makes it easy to then have a pdf or svg or png file
2015-06-03T09:53:23Z dim: see https://github.com/dimitri/pgcharts for an example of a CL app that uses highcharts for its graph rendering
2015-06-03T09:54:20Z Shinmera: Otherwise, there's plenty of graphics library. Usually drawing a plot is easy enough with some line primitives.
2015-06-03T09:54:25Z Shinmera: *libraries
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2015-06-03T09:56:18Z otsotsots_: I need to get back to work, but I have gotten plenty to think about and several new possible approaches. TY all. Have a good day:)
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2015-06-03T10:59:36Z zotherstupidguy: why lisp is good for AI?
2015-06-03T11:00:01Z H4ns: who told you that?  ask them.
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2015-06-03T11:01:30Z zotherstupidguy: i read it in a book
2015-06-03T11:01:50Z antoszka: Write an e-mail to the author.
2015-06-03T11:01:50Z H4ns: if that book does not explain why lisp is good for ai, it is probably not a good book.
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2015-06-03T11:22:37Z jackdaniel: wasn't AI that lady, with whom CL took painful divorce years ago?
2015-06-03T11:22:47Z jackdaniel: Once upon a time, there was a young man, and young woman
2015-06-03T11:22:49Z jackdaniel: ^_^
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2015-06-03T11:22:59Z theos: Ai is that lady that murdered CL
2015-06-03T11:23:27Z jackdaniel: arguably, it's not a grave you know ;)
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2015-06-03T12:10:51Z kephra: zotherstupidguy, my definition is: AI is the art of computer programming to solve problems, where the average code thinks this problem requires real intelligence - so AI is a moving with state of the art
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2015-06-03T12:11:40Z kephra: Lisp was great for AI, when AI research was around symbolic AI - e.g. expert systems, chat systems, or solving math equations
2015-06-03T12:12:21Z kephra: now SotA is more about self driving cars, injection molding machines that are more intelligent then their chinese workers (at least when it comes to quality control), and the like
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2015-06-03T12:14:38Z theos: CL can do all of these
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2015-06-03T12:18:34Z kephra: theos, sure Lisp is still a great language for modern AI also - because Lisp offers an unusual abstraction of sexpression where code could be data
2015-06-03T12:19:28Z kephra: but speaking of injection molding machines *shameless plug*, those run C+FORTRAN+Lua+PHP
2015-06-03T12:20:20Z kephra: ... or more precise the embedded system runs C+FORTRAN+Lua - the control station runs PHP
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2015-06-03T12:21:01Z theos: PHP for real?
2015-06-03T12:21:27Z jackdaniel: yes, php is essential
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2015-06-03T12:21:33Z jackdaniel: ai
2015-06-03T12:22:23Z kephra: PHP was the easiest way to produce HTML,CSS,JS output
2015-06-03T12:22:56Z kephra: there is also a much smaller Perl monitor - for Nagios
2015-06-03T12:23:19Z kephra: the AI is FORTRAN+C plus Lua for glue
2015-06-03T12:23:22Z jackdaniel: if you'll replace 'easiest way' with 'most convenient hack'..
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2015-06-03T12:25:48Z kephra: imho, the main problem with PHP are bad tutorials, teaching how to open a webserver to SQL injections and XSS attacks - PHP would be a much better language, if you remove all tutorials teaching deprecicated language cruft
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2015-06-03T12:26:49Z eudoxia: the language itself is poorly designed and educating people to escape SQL parameters etc. won't change that
2015-06-03T12:26:55Z kephra: I also think that PHP was right to keep the cruft - e.g. Ruby/Rails sounded like a much better platform, till you use it, and realize that its so fragile, its unmaintainable
2015-06-03T12:27:01Z jackdaniel: I think it was drop-in replacement for somehow complicated perl, so nobrainer can craft his own server-side script. Fact, it grown organically to something more bearable, but it doesn't change a fact - roots are hacks
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2015-06-03T12:28:12Z kephra: http://kephra.de/mp3/A_PHP_Advise.html <- btw, when talking about PHP - lets remember where name came from: pot head pixies ... elven like creatures who smoked to much weed
2015-06-03T12:31:19Z Xach: let's not talk about php at all
2015-06-03T12:31:39Z jackdaniel: isn't it acceptable lisp after all? ;-)
2015-06-03T12:33:46Z Xach: no
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2015-06-03T12:59:55Z kephra: i would say a minimal requirement to be lisp like is that both code and data are sexpressions
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2015-06-03T13:04:05Z tuturto: but if you have data sitting on a disk, say video file. it's not s-expression
2015-06-03T13:04:33Z tuturto: nor it doesn't turn into one if you load it
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2015-06-03T13:08:10Z jackdaniel: tuturto: it was, apparently, misunderstood joke ;O
2015-06-03T13:08:31Z tuturto: ah :D
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2015-06-03T13:09:33Z jackdaniel: there was an essey "why ruby is an acceptable lisp", which was outrageous for many people, and many further posts/discussions as followups
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2015-06-03T13:09:43Z jackdaniel: like "why lisp isn't an acceptable lisp" ^_^
2015-06-03T13:10:44Z tuturto: I have to check that essay
2015-06-03T13:10:54Z tuturto: sounds like fun stuff
2015-06-03T13:10:56Z jackdaniel: don't take it too seriously tough ;-)
2015-06-03T13:11:23Z tuturto: sure
2015-06-03T13:13:08Z jackdaniel: I think I had put commas wrong -- "it was, apparently misunderstood, joke"
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2015-06-03T13:22:08Z pjb: Given type checking of slots, given the MOP, and in the case of drmeister, given the underlying C++ classes, and therefore the fact that you can have fields that are not of type T, but restricted to some subtype, we must conclude that building an object read with #= cannot (in general), be done in a single step. Creating an "object template" and using CHANGE-CLASS would have been a good idea.  It doesn't work for standard-objects, but
2015-06-03T13:22:11Z pjb: you could use your own generic function and have methods for standard-objects.
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2015-06-03T13:24:07Z pjb: With SICL, it's all nice and good that you may access the internal representation (the vector of tagged slots), and to write implementation specific #=/## dispatching reader macros, why not.  But if you add MOP and define different storage strategies for lisp objects, or check their types, you won't be able to store the placeholder.
2015-06-03T13:25:03Z pjb: clhs #=
2015-06-03T13:25:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dho.htm
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2015-06-03T13:41:43Z drmeister: pjb: your post is helping to clarify things for me. Do you have any recommendations for me for serializing c++ classes using the lisp printer/reader?
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2015-06-03T13:44:50Z drmeister: I have two ideas. (1) temporarily override the type of tagged slots to store tags and then patch (2) read and write an object template and then change-class the templates.
2015-06-03T13:45:12Z pjb: drmeister: I would advise to use another method to collect the fields. cf. https://gitlab.com/patchwork/mclgui/blob/master/macros.lisp#L191
2015-06-03T13:45:16Z drmeister: And yes, they aren't really my ideas.
2015-06-03T13:46:04Z drmeister: I'm on my phone - can't read that. Back in 10 min.
2015-06-03T13:46:19Z oleo: hello
2015-06-03T13:46:48Z pjb: In anycase, if you use conforming code to build the object, you will have to go thru initialize-instance and other type checks, so you can't use placeholder.  Eg. initialize-instance could check that some slot is eq to self!
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2015-06-03T13:47:49Z Bike: yeah :/
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2015-06-03T13:50:39Z mlybdnm: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149076 <- Isn't inlining the function enough to return unboxed floats? I get the note: "doing float to pointer coercion (cost 13) to "<return value>""
2015-06-03T13:50:51Z drmeister:  I don't need to use conforming code.
2015-06-03T13:51:43Z Bike: mlybdnm: get the note from just this code, not a usage?
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2015-06-03T13:52:44Z mlybdnm: Bike: Yes, I get that compiler note.
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2015-06-03T13:53:15Z Bike: mlybdnm: well, that's just saying that the actual function is going to return a general value, for places where it can't inline, e.g. (mapcar #'foo ...)
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2015-06-03T13:54:31Z drmeister: pjb: I need/want to serialize builtin c++ objects that extend CL. I'd like to serialize in a way that uses the lisp printer and reader. I'm
2015-06-03T13:56:02Z drmeister: Ok with non conforming code  if I can get it to have identical semantics to what CL programmers expect.
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2015-06-03T14:21:43Z drmeister: pjb: How does this https://gitlab.com/patchwork/mclgui/blob/master/macros.lisp#L191 work?
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2015-06-03T14:23:36Z drmeister: pjb: It's a macro that I stick into PRINT-OBJECT methods.
2015-06-03T14:24:07Z pjb: drmeister: Yes, you'd use print-parseable-object instead of print-unreadable-object.
2015-06-03T14:24:19Z pjb: You would have to implement a method on extract-slots for your objects.
2015-06-03T14:24:38Z drmeister: How does it deal with recursive circularity?
2015-06-03T14:24:49Z pjb: It doesn't, the lisp printer deals with that.
2015-06-03T14:24:59Z pjb: Of course, as an implementer you already have an object-identity function.
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2015-06-03T14:26:25Z Bike: it looks like it just takes the slots as an argument
2015-06-03T14:26:51Z pjb: CLHS hints that the low level printing function is WRITE.  When WRITE is given :CIRCLE T, you have to identify objects and print #=/##.
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2015-06-03T14:27:18Z drmeister: Do you have any examples of what it generates?
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2015-06-03T14:28:43Z drmeister: I can guess though
2015-06-03T14:28:55Z pjb: Of course you would adapt it to your own situation.
2015-06-03T14:29:02Z pjb: You can use the #S reader macro to read back your objects.
2015-06-03T14:29:25Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: I found a strange behaviour if one try to use a trivial-timer with hunchentoot
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2015-06-03T14:30:59Z drmeister: pjb:  I don't see that it solves the problem that I have and that you alluded to above.  The slots still need to be patched after the object is read.
2015-06-03T14:31:19Z drmeister: In cases where there is recursive circularity.
2015-06-03T14:31:52Z pjb: An example: (sdi-window :title "Test" :view-position (0 45) :position/window nil :view-size (100 100) :view-scroll-position (0 0) :view-valid (t) :dialog-item-text nil :view-nick-name nil :view-position (0 45) :position/window nil :view-size (100 100) :view-scroll-position (0 0) "#x30200592AC1D")
2015-06-03T14:32:06Z pjb: You would prefix it with #S and you'd be all set.
2015-06-03T14:32:48Z pjb: Of course, you need to implement #=/##.
2015-06-03T14:33:29Z pjb: The change-class is the right thing to do IMO.  Since standard change-class can't be applied on non standard-objects, you have to provide an implementation specific way, either an extension on change-class, or your own function to do that.
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2015-06-03T14:34:25Z Posterdati: (trivial-timers::list-all-timers)
2015-06-03T14:34:25Z Posterdati: NIL
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2015-06-03T14:34:42Z drmeister: That's what I mean.  I still have the problem that slots can be types other than T and I need to (1) be able to either stick a tag into them and then patch them in a second stage or (2) create some representation of each object and then patch that representation and CHANGE-CLASS it after everything is read.
2015-06-03T14:35:26Z pjb: Yes.  With MOP, a slot could be 1-bit!
2015-06-03T14:35:28Z drmeister: Rather, I'd use RECONSTITUTE-BUILTIN-OBJECT and not CHANGE-CLASS.
2015-06-03T14:35:38Z pjb: Sounds good.
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2015-06-03T14:36:48Z emaczen: (defcvar len :int)
2015-06-03T14:36:52Z emaczen: (setf len 0)
2015-06-03T14:36:58Z drmeister: For (1) I would limit patching to tagged pointer slots.  Non-tagged value slots would be guaranteed to not involve recursively circular data structures.
2015-06-03T14:37:01Z emaczen: What is wrong with the second form when using CFFI?
2015-06-03T14:37:21Z emaczen: Or what is the correct way to access a foreign variable
2015-06-03T14:37:37Z pjb: emaczen: try: (macroexpand '(defcvar len :int)) it should give a hint.
2015-06-03T14:38:33Z pjb: on ccl, seems to me it should work.
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2015-06-03T14:42:17Z mlybdnm: Bike: Could I do something else to silence the warning? flet, macros?
2015-06-03T14:43:29Z emaczen: pjb: What works on CCL exactly?
2015-06-03T14:45:08Z pjb: (setf len 0)
2015-06-03T14:45:30Z emaczen: I just tried it on ccl as well and it doesn't work for me...
2015-06-03T14:45:39Z pjb: Oh, sorry, I just macroexpanded it.
2015-06-03T14:45:49Z pjb: Indeed it breaks, since len is bound to no C variable.
2015-06-03T14:46:27Z jasom: Is there a good way to have a reader macro defined for just a single file?
2015-06-03T14:46:54Z pjb: emaczen: Try: (cffi::defcvar errno :int)
2015-06-03T14:47:01Z pjb: jasom: yes.
2015-06-03T14:47:24Z emaczen: pjb: errno is evaluating to 110
2015-06-03T14:47:34Z pjb: Put in the file: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (setf *readtable* (copy-readtable)) (set-macro-character …)) …
2015-06-03T14:47:42Z pjb: emaczen: yes, and you can setf it.
2015-06-03T14:48:18Z emaczen: yes, but it still retains 110 as it's value
2015-06-03T14:48:48Z Xach: jasom: named-readtables does that for you with in-readtable
2015-06-03T14:49:11Z pjb: Well, probably you should try with another variable, errno is constantly being overwritten, and since you're in a loop (remember the L of repL), you should often get the same value put in.
2015-06-03T14:49:19Z Xach: jasom: *package* and *readtable* have similar behavior with respect to LOAD and COMPILE-FILE.
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2015-06-03T14:49:52Z jasom: Xach: oh, I didn't know that.  For some reason I thought they persisted
2015-06-03T14:50:26Z Xach: jasom: it's mutable, so if you mutate it, it stays mutated. but setting it lasts only for the duration of the file.
2015-06-03T14:50:31Z pjb: jasom: mutation of the objects persist, but not bindings.
2015-06-03T14:50:48Z pjb: Notice how I first changed the binding in my example above!
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2015-06-03T14:52:53Z emaczen: pjb: From the macroexpansion of (defcvar len :int) I'm copying and pasting the accessor function body into the repl and it doesn't work.
2015-06-03T14:53:06Z pjb: What does the REPL do?
2015-06-03T14:53:23Z emaczen: It tells me: Trying to access undefined foreign variable "len".
2015-06-03T14:53:46Z pjb: Where have you defined a C variable named len?
2015-06-03T14:53:53Z pjb: In what library?
2015-06-03T14:54:10Z emaczen: This might be a misunderstanding of mine with cffi then.
2015-06-03T14:54:20Z emaczen: Is cffi just used for wrapping shared libraries?
2015-06-03T14:54:26Z mlybdnm: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149076 <- Is there a way to silence the warning? Probably using some flet/macro mindfuck or something? The warning is "note: doing float to pointer coercion (cost 13) to "<return value>"".
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2015-06-03T14:54:39Z emaczen: Or can you use cffi to write C code.
2015-06-03T14:54:41Z mlybdnm: Not a warning, a note.
2015-06-03T14:55:02Z emaczen: by wrapping I mean calling C code.
2015-06-03T14:56:53Z Xach: mlybdnm: remove the declarations
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2015-06-03T14:57:25Z mlybdnm: And without removing the declarations?
2015-06-03T14:57:37Z Xach: Dunno.
2015-06-03T14:57:51Z Xach: an sbcl expert might be able to help. there are more of them in #sbcl than in here.
2015-06-03T14:57:52Z pjb: emaczen: you cannot generate any code with cffi.
2015-06-03T14:58:09Z emaczen: Okay, so it is mostly a wrapper then.
2015-06-03T14:58:21Z pjb: emaczen: you can only access existing libraries or code already existing in the process (with the needed symbol table).
2015-06-03T14:58:38Z pjb: emaczen: you can allocate heap memory and use it.
2015-06-03T14:59:08Z mlybdnm: Xach: Thanks.
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2015-06-03T15:01:04Z pjb: emaczen: (defvar *len* (cffi:foreign-alloc :int :initial-element 0 :count 1)) (setf (cffi:mem-ref *len* :int) 42) (cffi:mem-ref *len* :int) (cffi:foreign-free *len*) (setf *len* nil)
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2015-06-03T15:04:21Z emaczen: pjb: Thanks
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2015-06-03T15:11:45Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: md5:md5sum-string is not supported for your implementation.
2015-06-03T15:11:51Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: :(
2015-06-03T15:11:57Z emaczen: I'm getting a package lock error when I try to evaluate: (defcfun "read" :int
2015-06-03T15:11:58Z emaczen: 	     (fd :int buf :pointer size :int))
2015-06-03T15:12:16Z pjb: Yes. CL:READ exists and cannot be redefined.
2015-06-03T15:12:31Z pjb: use (shadow 'read) or  (defpackage … (:shadow "READ") …)
2015-06-03T15:12:47Z pjb: or use the options of defcfun to give a different lisp name.
2015-06-03T15:12:59Z emaczen: pbj: Thanks and noted.
2015-06-03T15:13:19Z pjb: emaczen: again, to debug it, use macroexpand.
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2015-06-03T15:13:39Z emaczen: pjb: noted
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2015-06-03T15:29:31Z Bike: mlybdnm: the warning's giving you pertinent information, since you and the compiler can't know that you'll never call a function non-inlined, though this doesn't influence the performance of the inlined version. with flet you might have that guarantee
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2015-06-03T15:31:55Z mlybdnm: Bike: Could you provide me with an example?
2015-06-03T15:32:50Z Bike: (flet ((foo (a b) (declare (type double-float a b) (optimize (speed 3)) (+ a b))) (foo 4d0 5d0))?
2015-06-03T15:33:29Z Bike: forgot a paren to close the declare.
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2015-06-03T15:48:51Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: please file an issue at gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/
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2015-06-03T16:57:34Z emaczen: Hey guys, please help me out with this paste about CFFI: http://paste.lisp.org/submit
2015-06-03T16:58:28Z emaczen: Let me know if you have questions.
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2015-06-03T16:59:35Z theos: emaczen thats the form to submit
2015-06-03T16:59:46Z emaczen: http://paste.lisp.org/+371G.
2015-06-03T16:59:48Z emaczen: my bad
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2015-06-03T17:00:45Z pjb: What buf????
2015-06-03T17:01:32Z pjb: again, allocate your foreign memory!
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2015-06-03T17:04:32Z emaczen: (defparameter buf "") isn't compatible?
2015-06-03T17:05:16Z ferada: emaczen: even if you don't use the existing inotify, cl-fsnotify, or cl-notify, you could still look at their source code, because that's exactly what they're doing
2015-06-03T17:05:34Z emaczen: ferada: good idea
2015-06-03T17:05:46Z pjb: emaczen: no. "" is a lisp STRING of length 0.
2015-06-03T17:06:09Z pjb: emaczen: how do you expect to read 100 bytes into a VECTOR of 0 CHARACTER?
2015-06-03T17:06:36Z pjb: emaczen: you know, 5-yo, round pegs, square holes.  Remember?
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2015-06-03T17:06:52Z emaczen: pjb: haha, good point
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2015-06-03T17:07:06Z emaczen: Would it work if I declared a fill-pointer for buf?
2015-06-03T17:07:10Z pjb: Nope.
2015-06-03T17:07:14Z pjb: BYTE vs. CHARACTER?
2015-06-03T17:07:20Z pjb: round peg vs square hoe?
2015-06-03T17:07:24Z pjb: hole
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2015-06-03T17:08:02Z nyef: I think the gardening implement wins. d-:
2015-06-03T17:08:53Z pjb: Now, if you had a (vector (unsigned-byte 8)) you would get a better chance, but not without using implementation specific features, if any possible, to find a buffer of unsigned char used to store the data of that LISP VECTOR.  But there's zero guarantee about that.
2015-06-03T17:09:04Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: for the md5 problem I'll file a complain as you asked, for hunchentoot I understood the problem thanks to pjb... The last was my fault so thumbs up for ecl :) lol
2015-06-03T17:09:16Z pjb: emaczen: why don't you want to allocate a foreign buffer???
2015-06-03T17:09:35Z pjb: Posterdati: not necessarily. trivial-timers use threads to implement the timer.
2015-06-03T17:09:56Z pjb: Posterdati: the problem is probably your fault, for missing some mutex.
2015-06-03T17:10:20Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: I'm only waiting for the mips creator ci20 to implement the code I wrote on the beagle bone...
2015-06-03T17:10:47Z emaczen: pjb: I'm not opposed, I'm just trying things out.
2015-06-03T17:11:00Z emaczen: I'm not sure of CFFI's limitations/abilities.
2015-06-03T17:11:05Z Posterdati: pjb: I created a timer without see if it is involved in another task
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2015-06-03T17:11:21Z pjb: That's the problem with FFI, there's no direct link between lisp data and foreign data, so you need to convert back and forth all the time.
2015-06-03T17:11:36Z Posterdati: pjb: probably forcing it's timeout confuses hunchentoot
2015-06-03T17:11:51Z emaczen: Yeah, it looks like it is a bit more low-level than I though.
2015-06-03T17:11:53Z emaczen: thought*
2015-06-03T17:12:46Z Shinmera: loke: By the way, there's an AUR package for clasp. Perhaps you should try that, if you haven't yet. https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/clasp-git/
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2015-06-03T17:14:14Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: you may patch your local md5 to fallback with (md5:md5sum-sequence (flexi-streams:string-to-octets string :external-format external-format))
2015-06-03T17:14:25Z jackdaniel: instead of error
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2015-06-03T17:15:17Z jackdaniel: I doubt if md5 maintainer will want flexi-streams as dependency, but if that's a case, you could submit such patch to him
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2015-06-03T17:22:29Z Posterdati: pjb: the timer seems to be scheduled on creation!
2015-06-03T17:22:57Z pjb: The code of the timer will be run in a differnet thread than hunchentoot.
2015-06-03T17:23:25Z Posterdati: yes
2015-06-03T17:24:09Z Posterdati: this is important if I had to scan sensors in time
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2015-06-03T17:24:29Z pjb: I cannot do more telepathic debugging without seen any code!
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2015-06-03T17:24:41Z Posterdati: ok
2015-06-03T17:24:58Z jackdaniel: pjb: something doesn't work here, any ideas?
2015-06-03T17:25:02Z jackdaniel: ;-)
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2015-06-03T17:27:45Z Posterdati: http://paste.debian.net/197539/
2015-06-03T17:28:21Z emaczen: (mem-aref buf :inotify-event) -- what is wrong with the :inotify-event type here? CL is telling me that it is an "unkown CFFI type".
2015-06-03T17:28:36Z emaczen: I used defcstruct to define inotify-event
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2015-06-03T17:33:28Z LiamH: :inotify-event is not inotify-event
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2015-06-03T17:34:40Z emaczen: I tried :inotify-event 'inotify-event and inotify-event
2015-06-03T17:35:14Z pjb: You cannot read a whole structure in a single step!
2015-06-03T17:35:46Z emaczen: pjb: I don't follow
2015-06-03T17:35:54Z pjb: man inotify
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2015-06-03T17:38:03Z emaczen: Okay, I have it open and I have been reading it. But I am not sure of what I am supposed to be looking at now.
2015-06-03T17:38:18Z pjb: emaczen: you can access simple fields.
2015-06-03T17:38:29Z emaczen: I am under the impression that mem-aref would give me the first element of buf
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2015-06-03T17:39:23Z pjb: emaczen: in C, pointers are equivalent to vectors!
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2015-06-03T17:40:41Z pjb: emaczen: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Foreign-Structure-Types.html#Foreign-Structure-Types
2015-06-03T17:41:06Z emaczen: shouldn't (mem-aptr buf inotify-event) return a pointer to an inotify-event (the first one in buf)
2015-06-03T17:41:28Z pjb: Well, check the url above.
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2015-06-03T17:47:15Z emaczen: (mem-aref buf :pointer) returns a (SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X10000000001)
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2015-06-03T17:47:30Z emaczen: It isn't letting me use (:pointer (:struct inotify-event))
2015-06-03T17:47:35Z emaczen: HOw do I dereference?
2015-06-03T17:47:42Z emaczen: I tried convert-from-foreign
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2015-06-03T17:49:42Z emaczen: Isn't mem-aref supposed to dereference
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2015-06-03T17:53:39Z pjb: emaczen: for structures, it's more complicated. Notice: "Using the (:struct structure-name) form for the type, mem-aref provides a Lisp object translated from the structure (by default a plist). "
2015-06-03T17:54:01Z emaczen: pjb: That doesn't work for me.
2015-06-03T17:54:06Z pjb: In some FFI, you can use :struct-name.field-name to refer to a field.
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2015-06-03T17:54:19Z emaczen: It tells me inotify-event is an unbound-variable
2015-06-03T17:54:20Z pjb: But it doesn't seem to be the case with cffi, from the doc.
2015-06-03T17:54:31Z pjb: Then quote!
2015-06-03T17:54:38Z emaczen: I tried that
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2015-06-03T17:54:54Z emaczen: If I quote, it then tells me that :struct is an undefined function
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2015-06-03T17:55:33Z pjb: Not to me.  '(:struct :inotify-event) --> (:struct :inotify-event)
2015-06-03T17:56:22Z emaczen: I was quoting inotify-event
2015-06-03T17:56:40Z emaczen: if I quote like that, it tells me that (:struct :inotify-event) is an unkown cffi type
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2015-06-03T17:57:22Z pjb: '(:struct inotify-event) then
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2015-06-03T17:57:47Z emaczen: Same thing
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2015-06-03T17:58:20Z emaczen: Maybe my buf definition is wrong? It seemed to work this time though when I created a file in my watched directory
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2015-06-03T17:58:26Z pjb: Probably. Some debugging is in order then.
2015-06-03T17:58:28Z emaczen: Anyway: (defvar buf (foreign-alloc :string :initial-element "" :count 100))
2015-06-03T17:59:29Z pjb: Cannot work.
2015-06-03T17:59:34Z pjb: Again round peg, square holes.
2015-06-03T17:59:45Z pjb: Perhaps a pause would be in order.
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2015-06-03T18:01:00Z pjb: order that, http://www.amazon.com/Voila-S-227A-Shape-Board/dp/B008PECJRA/ref=sr_1_29?ie=UTF8&qid=1433354436&sr=8-29&keywords=toy++hole+peg  play a few hours, come back.
2015-06-03T18:02:17Z pjb: Seriously!  How can you consider putting "" into a char?
2015-06-03T18:02:30Z pjb: Or don't you know that C strings are vectors of char?
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2015-06-03T18:02:50Z emaczen: (defvar buf (foreign-alloc :pointer :count 100)) -- that is probably better
2015-06-03T18:03:00Z pjb: probably. *buf* would be even better.
2015-06-03T18:03:10Z pjb: So now you have a vector of pointers.
2015-06-03T18:03:16Z pjb: 800 bytes.
2015-06-03T18:03:35Z emaczen: (defvar buf (foreign-alloc :char :count 100)) -- that is probably even better
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2015-06-03T18:03:37Z pjb: emaczen: you should read the cffi manual from A to Z before proceeding.
2015-06-03T18:03:50Z pjb: I'll leave you 4 hours to do so.
2015-06-03T18:03:52Z emaczen: Yeah, you are right.
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2015-06-03T18:34:59Z Bike: first yes you should read the manual, and second, mem-aref returning a pointer from :pointer indicates that buf is an array of pointers, not an array of structs
2015-06-03T18:35:09Z Bike: that's the sort of thing you need to be really clear on going in
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2015-06-03T20:06:09Z mlybdnm: pjb and his round peg and square holes. :P
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2015-06-03T20:08:35Z nyef: Well, it beats using "Anthony's Law of Force" ("don't force it, use a larger hammer").
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2015-06-03T20:16:42Z selestify: sup yall
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2015-06-03T20:42:27Z ZombieChicken: Is there a short introducion to CL's basic syntax and grammar? I know it isn't terribly complex (iirc, it is simpler than C), but I'd like a reference I could use until I get used to thing
2015-06-03T20:42:29Z ZombieChicken: things*
2015-06-03T20:44:31Z Xach: ZombieChicken: http://random-state.net/features-of-common-lisp.html isn't exactly that, but it covers a lot of syntax
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2015-06-03T20:45:27Z ZombieChicken: It is a start. Thanks
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2015-06-03T20:57:45Z White_Flame: ZombieChicken: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/syntax-and-semantics.html
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2015-06-03T20:58:09Z White_Flame: more tutorial than reference, but does cover most all the basics
2015-06-03T20:58:23Z White_Flame: scroll to see the <pre> blurbs
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2015-06-03T20:58:47Z ZombieChicken: White_Flame: ty
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2015-06-03T21:30:10Z aeth: Is this a decent way to parse floats that are coming in as strings? http://paste.lisp.org/display/149107
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2015-06-03T21:43:15Z PuercoPop: aeth: you can replace cl-ppcre:scan with (position #\. string)
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2015-06-03T21:47:37Z |3b| would just use parse-number lib unless you are really sure you will never get big/small numbers as 1e4 or whatever
2015-06-03T21:47:58Z |3b|: aeth: also, don't use EQ for numbers
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2015-06-03T21:49:36Z |3b|: use = if you know both values are numbers or eql if not
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2015-06-03T21:50:15Z White_Flame: aeth: manual parsing like that can be off in terms of precision
2015-06-03T21:50:32Z White_Flame: I've ended up using the Lisp reader to parse floats, though that needs to be tread tenderly
2015-06-03T21:50:54Z White_Flame: used a regex to verify it's a float, then read that substring
2015-06-03T21:51:01Z drmeister: Where does it say that [ ] and { } are reader macro characters reserved for the programmer?  Doesn't "2.4.8 Sharpsign" refer to just sharpsign-character reader macros?
2015-06-03T21:51:12Z drmeister: clhs 2.4.8
2015-06-03T21:51:12Z specbot: Sharpsign: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dh.htm
2015-06-03T21:51:49Z White_Flame: it says so right under Figure 2-19?
2015-06-03T21:52:09Z White_Flame: oh, prepended by #, n/m
2015-06-03T21:53:00Z |3b|: clhs 2.1.4
2015-06-03T21:53:00Z specbot: Character Syntax Types: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ad.htm
2015-06-03T21:53:02Z White_Flame: clhs 2.1.4
2015-06-03T21:53:02Z specbot: Character Syntax Types: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ad.htm
2015-06-03T21:53:10Z drmeister: Yeah, that's what I thought too.  But "people" have been telling me that { } and [ ] are explicitly reserved for the programmer.
2015-06-03T21:53:20Z |3b|: marked with * in figure 2-7
2015-06-03T21:53:48Z drmeister: Thank you!  That's what I'm looking for.
2015-06-03T21:54:05Z White_Flame: however, as they're defined as constituents, the wording is a little weird to me
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2015-06-03T21:54:22Z White_Flame: if you redefine them as terminating macro characters, does that break spec?
2015-06-03T21:54:25Z |3b|: initially defined as constituents, so user can change that
2015-06-03T21:55:28Z drmeister: But then - oh the plight of the poor implementer!  There are no good base characters left over for implementation dependent reader macros.
2015-06-03T21:55:39Z |3b|: you get ~ :p
2015-06-03T21:56:34Z drmeister: ~!  Normally I wouldn't wouldn't wipe my ... with ~.
2015-06-03T21:57:12Z drmeister: Oh well - I'll think on ~.  Otherwise I'll have to add unicode support and use unicode characters.
2015-06-03T21:57:40Z Bike: ccl seems to do ok. it uses #_, #&, #$, #/, #>
2015-06-03T21:58:25Z White_Flame: there are also lots of alphabetic characters free after #
2015-06-03T21:59:54Z kephra: I was thinking to use {} and [] to start a json reader - but then I realized that a json reader would remap , and this would make quasi quotes impossible ;-(
2015-06-03T22:01:27Z nyef: kephra: Heh. Reminds me of xml-mixed-mode. Started off with a reader-macro for #\< that returned the symbol for < and <=, and otherwise started trying to parse an XML tag.
2015-06-03T22:04:08Z kephra: *yeah* reader macros are fun - even if they sometimes do not make sense - x-expressions suit a lisp/scheme much better
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2015-06-03T22:28:38Z kristof: drmeister: unicode characters are not trivial to write on a normal keyboard
2015-06-03T22:29:13Z nyef: Bah. Just use Alt + your numeric keypad to enter the UTF-8 code sequences in decimal. d-:
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2015-06-03T22:30:09Z edgar-rft: on a german keyboard it's *very* trivial to write unicode characters
2015-06-03T22:30:58Z drmeister gets Unicode characters all the time when he slams his head on the keyboard.
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2015-06-03T22:31:15Z drmeister: kristof: I was going to cross that bridge when I got to it.
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2015-06-03T23:01:13Z pjb: drmeister: remember you also have ::: available to you, as an implementer.
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2015-06-03T23:28:54Z skrue: is there a good and reliable tree-shaker for sbcl that i can use without understanding how it works?
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2015-06-03T23:30:11Z kristof: That would have to be internal to sbcl, wouldn't it?
2015-06-03T23:30:18Z kristof: Or do you mean a contrib?
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2015-06-03T23:30:23Z kristof: If so, I don't think so
2015-06-03T23:30:30Z nyef: I would suggest that there almost certainly isn't.
2015-06-03T23:30:47Z kristof: I very often wish I did not get 32MB executables
2015-06-03T23:31:03Z kristof: tree shakers would be nice. "Hey, this program will never need to dynamically compile things. Please remove the compiler."
2015-06-03T23:32:38Z nyef: Now, see, I look at it the other way. "This program will never need to dynamically compile things. Please don't put the compiler in in the first place."
2015-06-03T23:32:51Z nyef: But, either way, SBCL isn't really set up for it.
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2015-06-03T23:34:18Z kristof: nyef: While that makes more sense, you should look at it from the standpoint that you usually include the cl package first
2015-06-03T23:34:36Z kristof: and so if the cl package is included, then every function should be available defacto, which is how it is
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2015-06-03T23:34:59Z kristof: nyef: Is there a cl-minimal which removes many of the dynamic features of common-lisp?
2015-06-03T23:35:20Z nyef: There are a few delivery-focused CL implementations, if that's what you're trying to ask.
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2015-06-03T23:35:58Z kristof: I was actually talking about a package which would only have a few of the most common functions in CL, and then multiple specialized packages
2015-06-03T23:36:15Z kristof: I had imagined doing such a thing in the past. Partitioning the CL package space into logical components
2015-06-03T23:36:51Z kristof: nyef: But anyway, I guess that wouldn't actually help executable size because sbcl's delivery is dumping an entire lisp-image, not necessarily "compile-and-deliver" in a traditional sense.
2015-06-03T23:38:59Z akkad: kristof: even with tree shakers it's hard to get smaller. sbcl comes close enough for me with compression of core at 9, vs say LW using level 5 shaking
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2015-06-03T23:52:29Z jlarocco: would it be possible for a Lisp implementation to support dump a base image of itself as a shared library, then when dumping images for users, dump a smaller image that loads that's dynamically linked to the base?
2015-06-03T23:53:28Z jlarocco: so the user executable would be, say 50K, but links to the larger base image with most of the Common Lisp library
2015-06-03T23:54:09Z jlarocco: and then all of the other executables could be small and share the one base image
2015-06-03T23:54:11Z pjb`: of course.
2015-06-03T23:54:18Z pjb`: jlarocco: write such an implementation!
2015-06-03T23:54:26Z pjb`: Do like drmeister!
2015-06-03T23:54:36Z pjb`: or patch an existing one.
2015-06-03T23:55:09Z jlarocco: so it's possible?
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2015-06-03T23:55:16Z jlarocco: do any implementations do it?
2015-06-03T23:55:38Z pjb`: if you define "possible" as "computable".
2015-06-03T23:55:49Z White_Flame: I think that option's available in some of the commercial implementations
2015-06-03T23:55:59Z jlarocco: i'm afraid I don't have anywhere near the time required to implement it myself
2015-06-03T23:56:01Z pjb`: No, nobody wanted it so bad that they put $500,000 on the table to do it.
2015-06-03T23:56:04Z White_Flame: even if at the level of "don't include the compiler" etc flags
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2015-06-03T23:56:44Z drmeister: jlarocco: You are wise
2015-06-03T23:57:29Z nyef: Wasn't this the premise, more or less, of "WCL"?
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2015-06-03T23:57:36Z nyef: Or of "ECL"?
2015-06-03T23:59:09Z jlarocco: yeah, I guess so: http://pgc.com/commonlisp/
2015-06-03T23:59:18Z jlarocco: very similar, at least
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2015-06-04T00:00:38Z pillton: I think the attractiveness of shared libraries is misplaced.
2015-06-04T00:01:26Z jlarocco: i'm not sure
2015-06-04T00:03:06Z pillton: A library written in C++ that is compiled to a shared library using one C++ compiler is not guaranteed to be usable by an application that is compiled using a different C++ compiler.
2015-06-04T00:03:12Z jlarocco: if I dump an SBCL image, I get a ~65-70 Mb file
2015-06-04T00:04:04Z jlarocco: if I create a few images of different programs, the size adds up, and most of it's the same base CL stuff
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2015-06-04T00:04:28Z White_Flame: pillton: which is why all non-system languages need to be transparently (re)compiled on the target
2015-06-04T00:04:55Z White_Flame: a pox on C for shoving a systems language into application language space
2015-06-04T00:05:51Z jlarocco: @pillton technically true, but there are work arounds
2015-06-04T00:06:11Z pillton: I don't think the fault is to do with C. Tools have to be provided by the system in order to access the system's functionality.
2015-06-04T00:06:30Z White_Flame: sure
2015-06-04T00:06:36Z pillton: Why they are used in other compilers is beyond me.
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2015-06-04T00:08:18Z p_l: anyone got a Genera system on hand? :D
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2015-06-04T00:12:23Z pillton: jlarocco: Some people create a single image containing all of their programs. They dispatch based on the name used to invoke the program.
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2015-06-04T00:13:18Z pillton: jlarocco: Some implementations provide support for concatenating FASL files.
2015-06-04T00:13:35Z pillton: jlarocco: I use the REPL the most.
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2015-06-04T00:17:45Z drmeister: I have builtin C++ classes PRINTing and READing - yay!
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2015-06-04T00:17:58Z pjb: Using #S?
2015-06-04T00:18:51Z drmeister: I defined #I
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2015-06-04T00:19:27Z drmeister: Then emacs does parenthesis matching for me.  I didn't like losing that.
2015-06-04T00:19:34Z drmeister: (setf *test* #I(CHEM:ATOM-TEST CHEM-KEYWORD::INT 3 CHEM-KEYWORD::TEST CHEM-KEYWORD::|SAPRingSize| ))
2015-06-04T00:20:05Z pjb: You could have used #S, since it's the same syntax and there's the class/structure name to do the dispatch.
2015-06-04T00:20:13Z drmeister: (let ((*print-readably* t)) (print *test*)) --> #I(CHEM:ATOM-TEST CHEM-KEYWORD::INT 3 CHEM-KEYWORD::TEST CHEM-KEYWORD::|SAPRingSize| )
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2015-06-04T00:22:26Z drmeister: Then I'd have to implement constructors for these builtin classes wouldn't I?
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2015-06-04T00:23:04Z drmeister: What I did was implement (CORE:MAKE-BUILTIN {class-name} {plist of args} )
2015-06-04T00:23:21Z drmeister: My #I reader macro looks like this:
2015-06-04T00:23:42Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/uNrWQmiK/
2015-06-04T00:23:56Z pjb: Then after testing the first element of the list, you could _dispatch_ to watever constructor you want.
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2015-06-04T00:24:35Z drmeister: Does #S allow non-keyword symbol arguments?
2015-06-04T00:25:48Z drmeister: It seems to require keyword symbols for slot names.
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2015-06-04T00:26:29Z drmeister: I could use keyword symbols for slot names but I currently don't because I'd have to make some major changes to how I build the symbol table for C++.
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2015-06-04T00:28:19Z drmeister: That's not the best reason.
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2015-06-04T00:30:21Z drmeister: I'm pretty happy with this though.  I can serialize objects using the printer/reader
2015-06-04T00:32:51Z drmeister: This is all you need on the C++ side to make it work.
2015-06-04T00:32:53Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/Jj2L62gk/
2015-06-04T00:33:43Z drmeister: You can set it up to only generate fields if they aren't equal to a default value (printing), or fill in the default value if it's not supplied (reading).
2015-06-04T00:34:33Z drmeister: Plain Old Data (pod) fields are converted back and forth between C++ values and Common Lisp values automatically by the same converters I use to convert function argument/return values.
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2015-06-04T00:36:15Z drmeister: This also provides a way to initialize these exposed C++ classes (core:make-builtin 'chem:atom-test 'chem-keyword::test 'chem-keyword::|logicalIdentity| ... )
2015-06-04T00:36:23Z drmeister: I should really use keyword arguments.
2015-06-04T00:36:41Z drmeister: Then it will look like MAKE-INSTANCE
2015-06-04T00:37:19Z drmeister: Also, this "fields" function generates and consumes an a-list, so it will be compatible with cl-conspack once I get all the systems that cl-conspack needs working with Clasp (sigh).
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2015-06-04T00:39:11Z drmeister: It should be fast as well.  Those INTERN_(chemkw,xxx) C++ macros (shudder) generate C++ global variables that reference Common Lisp symbols directly.  That's as opposed to my previous approaches that used strings as slot names (bleh).
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2015-06-04T00:40:40Z drmeister: And flexible.  If I add a new slot and add an entry to the "fields" function with a default then it will be able to read old printed definitions of objects because it will fill in slots that are missing entries with default values.
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2015-06-04T00:42:29Z drmeister: C++ classes defined this way are managed by the garbage collector.  So they extend Clasp Common Lisp without adding memory management and different, incompatible memory model headaches.
2015-06-04T00:42:42Z aeth: so there's =, eq, eql, equal, and equalp? also string= and string-equal?
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2015-06-04T00:42:58Z White_Flame: aeth: yes
2015-06-04T00:43:02Z pjb: drmeister: you are an implementer: you have super powers! You can make #S accept non keywords, EVEN if it was not specified by the CLHS, as long as you _document_ it!
2015-06-04T00:43:08Z drmeister: aeth: Yep, Common Lisp has all kinds of equal.
2015-06-04T00:43:12Z aeth: = is for numbers... which one is for strings? (equal, string=, string-equal?) which one is for symbols (eq? eql?)
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2015-06-04T00:43:27Z drmeister: EQ is for symbols.
2015-06-04T00:43:28Z pjb: drmeister: an implementer can implement a super set of the CL language, as long as he _documents_ it!
2015-06-04T00:44:03Z drmeister: That's what I'm doing here, writing documentation :-)
2015-06-04T00:44:04Z aeth: ok, at least I was right in my code to use eq for symbols
2015-06-04T00:44:10Z White_Flame: string-equal ignores case
2015-06-04T00:44:21Z aeth: oh
2015-06-04T00:44:31Z White_Flame: (which is confusing, because equal respects case, and equalp is case insensitive when used against strings)
2015-06-04T00:44:43Z aeth: oops, I used equal somewhere and made the string go uppercase before testing
2015-06-04T00:45:28Z White_Flame: so string-equal acts more like equalp
2015-06-04T00:45:33Z White_Flame: and not like equal
2015-06-04T00:45:39Z pjb: yes.
2015-06-04T00:45:55Z pjb: string= is like equal, for strings.
2015-06-04T00:46:41Z pjb: Notice that (equal a "abc") is more strict than (string= a "abc"), since (string= '|abc| "abc") but not (equal '|abc| "abc").
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2015-06-04T00:46:55Z pjb: Sometimes, when testing strings, you will prefer equal or equalp over string= or string-equal.
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2015-06-04T00:51:37Z aeth: turns out I need equalp instead of equal in this specific instance
2015-06-04T00:52:01Z aeth: case insensitive string-keyed hash table (long story as to why it had to be that way)
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2015-06-04T01:01:30Z tumba: I would like to start reading the comp.lang.lisp, but my ISP doesn't offer USENET access. Would any of you recommend a provider? I don't mind paying something for it, but it seems that most of the services out there cater to people looking to download large amounts of binary data and charge accordingly.
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2015-06-04T01:04:54Z pillton: I thought you could read and post using Google groups.
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2015-06-04T01:22:20Z pinterface: tumba: eternal-september.org
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2015-06-04T01:25:24Z tumba: pinterface: Thanks!
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2015-06-04T02:03:40Z Xach uses news.individual.net
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2015-06-04T02:15:53Z akkad: how active is that list?
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2015-06-04T02:22:24Z pjb: what list?
2015-06-04T02:22:44Z pjb: How can you say whether the list (1 2 3) is active or not?
2015-06-04T02:23:20Z akkad: re: <tumba> I would like to start reading the comp.lang.lisp, but my ISP doesn't
2015-06-04T02:23:51Z pjb: yes, but there's no list in there, therefore the general context takes over.
2015-06-04T02:24:18Z pjb: akkad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet
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2015-06-04T02:25:58Z akkad: rau had it right
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2015-06-04T02:27:11Z pjb: akkad: also, in the context of the internet, with eternal memory, activity has no purpose.  Read the archives!
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2015-06-04T03:51:47Z pinterface realizes he's no longer included in Planet Lisp and gets sad.
2015-06-04T03:52:58Z nyef: pinterface: It should be simple enough to be included once more: Blog, regularly, steadily, on Lisp and Lisp-related things.
2015-06-04T03:53:20Z nyef: Not necessarily easy, but simple.
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2015-06-04T04:00:51Z pinterface: Yup.  If I apply myself, maybe one day I'll be good enough to rejoin the club.
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2015-06-04T04:01:52Z nyef: Might not even take much.
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2015-06-04T04:39:05Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-06-04T05:10:06Z drmeister: Hi beach
2015-06-04T05:11:38Z drmeister: I got serialization of C++ objects using PRINTing/READing to work - thanks for your help on that.
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2015-06-04T05:12:27Z beach: Congratulations!
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2015-06-04T05:12:53Z beach: Not sure I was being helpful.
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2015-06-04T05:18:24Z aeth: is running TIME to test functions useful?
2015-06-04T05:18:34Z drmeister: Yes - it's generating stuff like this:  #I(CHEM:CHEM-INFO CHEM-KEYWORD::ROOT #I(CHEM:SMARTS-ROOT CHEM-KEYWORD::TESTS #I(HASH-TABLE-EQ CORE::DATA #A(T (0) ()) CORE::REHASH-THRESHOLD 1.0d0 CORE::REHASH-SIZE 2.0d0 ) CHEM-KEYWORD::CHAIN #I(#1=CHEM:CHAIN #2=CHEM-KEYWORD::TAIL #I(#1# #2# #I(#1# #2# #I(#1# #2# #I(#1# #3=CHEM-KEYWORD::HEAD #I(#4=CHEM:BOND-TEST
2015-06-04T05:18:34Z drmeister: #5=CHEM-KEYWORD::ATOM-TEST #I(#6=CHEM:ATOM-TEST #7=CHEM-KEYWORD::SYM #8=:C #9=CHEM-KEYWORD::TEST #10=CHEM-KEYWORD::|SAPElement| ) #11=CHEM-KEYWORD::BOND #12=CHEM-KEYWORD::|SABSingleOrAromaticBond| ) ) #3# #I(#4# #5# #I(#6# #7# #8# #9# #10# ) #11# #12# ) ) #3# #I(#4# #5# #I(#6# #7# #8# #9# #10# ) #11# #12# ) ) #3# #I(#4# #5# #I(#6# #7# #8# #9# #10# ) #11#
2015-06-04T05:18:34Z drmeister: #12# ) ) #3# #I(#4# #5# #I(#6# #7# #8# #9# #10# ) #11# #12# ) ) CHEM-KEYWORD::FIRST-TEST #I(#6# #7# #8# #9# #10# ) ) )
2015-06-04T05:19:17Z drmeister: Octothorps forever!
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2015-06-04T05:27:33Z akkad: does compile-file also compile dependencies?
2015-06-04T05:27:41Z akkad: e.g. load.lisp which loads main.lisp ...
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2015-06-04T05:31:53Z drmeister: beach: The idea of running roughshod over the type temporarily between reading and patching worked fine.
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2015-06-04T05:32:19Z drmeister: akkad: No, compile-file doesn't compile dependencies.
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2015-06-04T05:34:21Z drmeister: compile-file will not compile files that are loaded transitively.
2015-06-04T05:34:51Z akkad: ok
2015-06-04T05:35:03Z drmeister: That's the role that ASDF fills.  Although you need to do more than just load files.
2015-06-04T05:35:08Z akkad: trying to get the forms I'm using that keep spending too much time in %eval
2015-06-04T05:35:36Z drmeister: Are you sure you should be using eval?  I almost never use it.
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2015-06-04T05:36:03Z akkad: eval is being used because I am not properly compiling my forms before hand
2015-06-04T05:36:32Z drmeister: Oh, you mean when you LOAD your files.  I got it.
2015-06-04T05:36:44Z xj54y: someone, Lisp is beautiful. I'm getting a headache.
2015-06-04T05:37:18Z drmeister: akkad: use ASDF and set up a system - it will take care of that stuff for you.
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2015-06-04T05:37:27Z akkad: nice, I must learn that
2015-06-04T05:37:44Z akkad: finding scrypt WAY too slow on non-sbcl
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2015-06-04T05:47:31Z beach: drmeister: What's next on your agenda with respect to Clasp?
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2015-06-04T06:20:07Z xj54y: I just drew out a historical map of Lisp and it's dialects.. Really looks like a PDP-10 backplane
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2015-06-04T06:21:22Z akkad: xj54y: using *features* ? :P
2015-06-04T06:21:30Z xj54y: akkad, hush, you...
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2015-06-04T06:23:21Z beach: xj54y: Is it something you drew yourself or something you found on the web?
2015-06-04T06:23:30Z xj54y: beach, pen and paper
2015-06-04T06:24:17Z xj54y: Are there any online? It'd be interesting to compare
2015-06-04T06:26:09Z Shinmera: There's a very simple one on wiki. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/71b23fdea3320ea89f55ced33e678ab2.png
2015-06-04T06:29:20Z xj54y: Shinmera, yeah, nothing like that. :p
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2015-06-04T06:33:31Z tuturto: xj54y: sound cool, any chance getting that online?
2015-06-04T06:33:35Z tuturto: would be interesting to see
2015-06-04T06:35:17Z xj54y: tuturto, oh.. Hmm.. I've not really thought about that. I'm just getting started with Lisp (again) and realized I have no idea of its origins. So, I drew it all out (call it homework if you will). Hadn't thought about putting it online but, i'll formalise it soon. :-)
2015-06-04T06:36:31Z Shinmera: xj54y: If you're interested in history, this is a good snippet on Common Lisp. https://soundcloud.com/zach-beane/peter-seibel-common-lisp
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2015-06-04T06:38:03Z akkad: Shinmera: thanks
2015-06-04T06:38:11Z tuturto: I'll give it a listen, thanks
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2015-06-04T06:38:54Z tuturto: I'm just interested what kinds of implementations there are and how they relate to each other
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2015-06-04T06:39:15Z tuturto: and who borrowed what from where and ran with it ;P
2015-06-04T06:39:26Z xj54y: Shinmera, I'll give it a listen here soon. Gratsi ^^
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2015-06-04T06:39:59Z Shinmera: skrue: As for tree shaking in SBCL, there's https://www.snellman.net/blog/archive/2005-07-06.html but there's no guarantee that'll still work in recent SBCLs, or work at all for your specific task.
2015-06-04T06:40:09Z tuturto: I got originally interested in lisps because of Abuse and then later started playing with Hy and then with others
2015-06-04T06:40:54Z Shinmera: jlarocco: If you have SBCL with core compression, a resulting executable/image will be around 15-18mb usually.
2015-06-04T06:41:32Z kristof: is it me or is this channel more active now?
2015-06-04T06:41:40Z Shinmera: kristof: More active compared to when?
2015-06-04T06:41:42Z kristof: compared to 6-8 months ago
2015-06-04T06:41:52Z Shinmera: Seems about the same to me.
2015-06-04T06:42:02Z xj54y: Arguably, far too many.
2015-06-04T06:42:03Z kristof: maybe I'm imagining it
2015-06-04T06:42:22Z kristof: Been idling around here since '13
2015-06-04T06:43:04Z akkad: being able to deploy a single binary is nice
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2015-06-04T06:43:28Z Shinmera: kristof: Same for me.
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2015-06-04T06:44:56Z Shinmera: xj54y: Also worth reading are http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/history/lisp/lisp.html and http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/cl-untold-story.html
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2015-06-04T07:32:16Z smokeink: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149148 any idea guys ?
2015-06-04T07:32:16Z minion: smokeink, memo from Shinmera: The kdebindings-smokeqt package from the AUR works just fine.
2015-06-04T07:32:58Z Shinmera: ^disregard that, Qtools should compile smoke automatically by itself now
2015-06-04T07:34:15Z smokeink: ok
2015-06-04T07:34:28Z smokeink: how to pass memos to minion ?
2015-06-04T07:36:17Z smokeink: got it, minion told me
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2015-06-04T07:52:25Z loz1: morning guys
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2015-06-04T07:57:26Z kami: Good morning.
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2015-06-04T08:03:15Z smokeink: morning
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2015-06-04T10:00:19Z knobo: What is the impact on the lisp commuity that corman lisp is released with MIT license?
2015-06-04T10:00:35Z knobo: Or will it have any impact?
2015-06-04T10:00:46Z knobo: I don't know anything about corman lisp
2015-06-04T10:01:28Z pjb: One more MS-Windows implementation.  But 32-bit.  IIRC, sbcl and ccl works in 64-bit on MS-Windows too.
2015-06-04T10:02:28Z pjb: It may be interesting, to be able to continue using lisp applications written in Corman CL on MS-Windows.
2015-06-04T10:03:34Z splittist: knobo: an interesting code base, different implementation techniques
2015-06-04T10:03:43Z pjb: The impact should be minimal, for the lateness of this relicensing.
2015-06-04T10:04:23Z pjb: If it had been free software before perl ruby or python were designed, perhaps it would have had a bigger impact, translated in number of programmers using lisp.
2015-06-04T10:07:46Z splittist: a more visible existence proof that a one-person CL implementation is possible
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2015-06-04T10:20:57Z knobo: ok :)
2015-06-04T10:22:14Z knobo: interesting
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2015-06-04T10:40:30Z loz1: how can i skip signals from form, but still handle errors?
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2015-06-04T10:51:55Z pillton: What do you mean by skip signals?
2015-06-04T10:52:18Z loz1: >Use handler-bind instead of handler-case doesn't unwind the stack when handling errors
2015-06-04T10:52:32Z loz1: does this mean you cant invoke restarts in handler-case ?
2015-06-04T10:53:10Z loz1: pillton: i found that invoking 'continue restart is what i was looking for
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2015-06-04T10:53:29Z loz1: pillton: now i wonder what is difference between handler-bind and handler-case :)
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2015-06-04T10:56:54Z pillton: I am a bit rusty with the two as I very very rarely use restarts. I would have a look at chapter 19 in practical common lisp.
2015-06-04T10:57:43Z Xach: loz1: handler-bind handlers run in the context of where the error occurs. handler-case runs in the context where the handler is defined.
2015-06-04T10:58:28Z Xach: loz1: handler-bind handlers have the option to keep going at the error-location level. in handler-case, it's too late, everything has returned up to the handler-case level.
2015-06-04T10:58:44Z loz1: Xach: good explanation, thank you!
2015-06-04T10:59:59Z loz1: Xach: so handler-case is much like try/catch in other languages?
2015-06-04T11:00:39Z Xach: loz1: yes
2015-06-04T11:04:13Z Cymew: splittist: Can you share some more details about the "different implementation techniques" of Corman CL?
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2015-06-04T11:11:07Z loz1: Xach: can't figure out how to continue package downloading in ql after i get 'cbuf-progress signal
2015-06-04T11:14:44Z Xach: loz1: with what control structure?
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2015-06-04T11:15:59Z loz1: Xach: https://gist.github.com/maximvl/fb23a02fb09e830ab54e
2015-06-04T11:16:48Z loz1: r is nil in that case
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2015-06-04T11:23:28Z Xach: loz1: if you don't do a non-local transfer of control, the handler is said to "decline" to handle the condition, so it continues
2015-06-04T11:23:35Z Xach: loz1: why do you want to handle cbuf-progress?
2015-06-04T11:24:00Z loz1: but it continues because there is no 'continue restart
2015-06-04T11:24:25Z Xach: loz1: I am not sure what your goal is
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2015-06-04T11:24:40Z Xach: loz1: do you want to stop everything when progress is signaled?
2015-06-04T11:24:49Z loz1: Xach: cause with handler-case i'm catching signal, instead of loading system
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2015-06-04T11:25:06Z Xach: loz1: ok, you should never use "t" in handler-case
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2015-06-04T11:25:07Z loz1: Xach: nope, i want to continue
2015-06-04T11:25:52Z Xach: loz1: what is the goal of your handler-case?
2015-06-04T11:25:59Z loz1: what if i'm working with many systems and libraries and want to handle all errors?
2015-06-04T11:26:11Z Xach: loz1: then handle ERROR
2015-06-04T11:26:12Z loz1: excluding cbuf-progress :)
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2015-06-04T11:26:23Z Xach: loz1: CBUF-PROGRESS is not an ERROR, it is a CONDITION
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2015-06-04T11:40:54Z Xach: loz1: but it's not usually a great idea to handle all errors, either
2015-06-04T11:42:20Z loz1: Xach: but what should you do then? i dont want my system to fall into debugger
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2015-06-04T11:46:14Z Xach: loz1: what do you want to happen instead?
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2015-06-04T11:46:55Z loz1: Xach: now i'm just collecting errors and sometimes checking them
2015-06-04T11:47:26Z Xach: loz1: it is usually preferable to handle errors you understand, but if you want to handle them all, you can handle them all.
2015-06-04T11:47:58Z Xach: but the distinction between conditions and errors is important
2015-06-04T11:48:13Z loz1: ye, i got it now
2015-06-04T11:49:50Z loz1: i wonder, if there is any practice to "save" thread which got error with debugger session for later debug?
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2015-06-04T12:25:29Z Shinmera: So, this is a problem that I've been having for quite a long time now and I don't know why. My webserver is running hunchentoot on SBCL, and once or twice every month all connections time out. The reason for that is that the process runs out of file descriptors. When I look at the file descriptors that are open for the process, there's about a thousand of them that don't ever seem to get closed. Trying to shut
2015-06-04T12:25:31Z Shinmera: down hunchentoot results in it just hanging idly forever. The only thing I can do is to restart the process entirely. Does anyone know why this happens, what can be done to avoid it, or if there's a way to forcibly close the FDs without restarting the image completely?
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2015-06-04T12:29:46Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: what kind of file descriptors ?
2015-06-04T12:30:28Z Shinmera: sockets
2015-06-04T12:30:53Z Shinmera: There's only one hunchentoot thread left though (the listener), so that suggests to me that some sockets aren't properly closed for unknown reasons.
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2015-06-04T12:36:41Z nyef: Shinmera: Use lsof to get a list of the file descriptors that need to be closed, then sb-unix:unix-close them?
2015-06-04T12:37:04Z nyef: (Yes, shockingly manual process, I know.)
2015-06-04T12:37:19Z Shinmera: Ah, I can do it just like that?
2015-06-04T12:37:34Z Shinmera: I was looking around for a way to force close sockets, but didn't find any. Thanks!
2015-06-04T12:37:34Z nyef: Well, it's worth a shot, isn't it?
2015-06-04T12:37:45Z Shinmera: Sure. I'll try that next time it happens.
2015-06-04T12:37:59Z nyef: Wait, "next time it happens"?
2015-06-04T12:38:06Z Shinmera: Well I already restarted my image
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2015-06-04T12:38:24Z nyef: Ah. So you'll need to wait a day or so for it to build up some orphaned file descriptors. I see.
2015-06-04T12:38:48Z Shinmera: Looking at the descriptors that were open, it only starts accumulating them after a good while.
2015-06-04T12:38:56Z nyef: Hrm.
2015-06-04T12:39:00Z Shinmera: (the ones open were all starting from the 27th or so)
2015-06-04T12:39:06Z nyef: Sounds like there's something else going on.
2015-06-04T12:39:17Z Shinmera: I honestly don't know what could be going on.
2015-06-04T12:40:22Z nyef: Are you monitoring your heap size and system load over time?
2015-06-04T12:40:50Z Shinmera: No
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2015-06-04T12:41:17Z nyef: Peak concurrent connections over time, thread count over time?
2015-06-04T12:41:41Z Shinmera: I should set that up sometime, but I'm not monitoring anything.
2015-06-04T12:41:47Z Shinmera: Right now I mean
2015-06-04T12:42:30Z nyef: So, almost anything could be going wrong slowly over time, kicking over a threshold after most of a month?
2015-06-04T12:43:03Z Shinmera: The heap certainly isn't running out, I know at least that much.
2015-06-04T12:43:13Z Shinmera: But yes.
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2015-06-04T12:43:23Z nyef: Or it could be a monthly spike of requests from some spider, worm, or other net creature that somehow triggers a failure mode somewhere.
2015-06-04T12:43:52Z Shinmera: It isn't regular either, that's another thing I know. But yes, I should set up some form of monitoring.
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2015-06-04T12:45:41Z loz1: Shinmera: just take some load generating tool and test with it
2015-06-04T12:46:12Z loz1: Shinmera: like tsung https://github.com/processone/tsung
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2015-06-04T12:46:29Z Shinmera: How many god damn load testers are there
2015-06-04T12:46:52Z p_l: Shinmera: don't ask
2015-06-04T12:46:55Z p_l: too many
2015-06-04T12:48:50Z Shinmera: I think I'll write a tiny monitoring tool for Radiance later today.
2015-06-04T12:49:17Z nyef: There's also the possibility of "just" combining a fork-bomb and wget to do your load testing. (-:
2015-06-04T12:50:37Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: use siege
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2015-06-04T12:50:50Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: That's what I've been using before.
2015-06-04T12:51:21Z Shinmera: Anyway, I'll do some more testing later today and come back when I have some more tangible results.
2015-06-04T12:51:33Z loz1: whats radiance?
2015-06-04T12:51:46Z Shinmera: loz1: A web application environment.
2015-06-04T12:52:08Z fe[nl]ix: it may be that the server is leaking sockets only in case of network error
2015-06-04T12:52:31Z fe[nl]ix: which smells like missing unwind-protect
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2015-06-04T12:52:44Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: My guess is either that, or something to do with direct file transfer as I've had weird cases where larger files didn't get delivered at all.
2015-06-04T12:52:58Z Shinmera: But the latter might be completely unrelated too.
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2015-06-04T12:53:24Z Shinmera: loz1: If you don't mind terrible accents, here's a short talk about it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVNbn99jGRk
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2015-06-04T12:53:39Z loz1: Shinmera: i'll check it, thanks
2015-06-04T12:53:59Z loz1 still can't run clack web app
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2015-06-04T13:07:29Z Xach: i ran out of file descriptors because of how i was using run-program
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2015-06-04T13:15:41Z nyef: minion used to run out of file descriptors All The Time, due to some bugs in how it queried cliki.
2015-06-04T13:16:00Z nyef: minion: Isn't that right?
2015-06-04T13:16:00Z minion: does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you?
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2015-06-04T13:32:49Z loz1: Xach: and how did you use it?
2015-06-04T13:35:11Z Xach: loz1: i was using it to get strings of output without properly collecting the processes at the end
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2015-06-04T14:04:44Z myztic: anyone here using common lisp as day-to-day scripting language (python/ruby/... replacement) and could share some experience?
2015-06-04T14:05:08Z jdz: myztic: there's cl-launch
2015-06-04T14:08:04Z dim: myztic: I am using CL whenever I need to write code nowadays, and I would say that I've switched from little non-maintainable scripts to real applications solving the problem for real, with logs and advanced options and all
2015-06-04T14:08:48Z dim: basically writing a quick script used to take easily a day before it's doing what it needs to, nowadays with CL it's still a day of work but it's a full blown solution to that very little problem
2015-06-04T14:08:56Z Xach: i use cl for scripty stuff sometimes, but one-off hacks i usually run from within slime
2015-06-04T14:09:01Z dim: well that's the spirit
2015-06-04T14:09:15Z dim: oh, I didn't even think about one off hacks
2015-06-04T14:09:32Z oGMo: i wrote/use ScriptL, which provides command-line calling to your running lisp, with some readline etc stuff
2015-06-04T14:09:34Z dim: the previous bits were about scripts I have to ship and someone else than me will run / integrate
2015-06-04T14:10:00Z oGMo: nice for hacking in emacs while "running" the code from your terminal
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2015-06-04T14:10:11Z dim: I use buildapp from a Makefile with automatic quicklisp integration to build a binary image, so I "compile" my scripts down to machine code
2015-06-04T14:10:43Z dim: when I have the chance of operating the code myself I make it so that I have a swank port to connect to, yes
2015-06-04T14:11:18Z Xach: same
2015-06-04T14:11:53Z dim: Xach: I guess, I learnt the trick from you IIRC ;-)
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2015-06-04T14:16:34Z dlowe: I just use sbcl --script
2015-06-04T14:16:47Z myztic: Xach: what about shly http://shlyfile.org/
2015-06-04T14:17:22Z myztic: but how advanced does one have to be in cl to use it successfully? I guess it is much(!) easier getting into python / ruby isn't it?
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2015-06-04T14:18:17Z myztic: lisp has the reputation of being kind of an expert's language
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2015-06-04T14:18:28Z dlowe: it's somewhat easier, I think.
2015-06-04T14:19:15Z dlowe: lisp has all sorts of undeserved reputations
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2015-06-04T14:20:08Z dlowe: there are many fine introductory books online and on paper that you can use.
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2015-06-04T14:20:30Z dim: it's true tho that there are way more features included in lisp than in python, and that learning the API takes time, at least with common lisp learning the language is very easy and quickly done
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2015-06-04T14:23:24Z dlowe: I have an idea for another batteries-included common lisp distribution. It would use sbcl as a base, quicklisp for installs. But... it wouldn't use COMMON-LISP-USER as the default package. It would use BATTERIES-USER, which would use BATTERIES, which would contain local package nicknames for the pre-installed packages
2015-06-04T14:23:34Z dlowe: (replace BATTERIES with whatever)
2015-06-04T14:24:02Z dlowe: so under BATTERIES, the CL-PPCRE package would just be RE
2015-06-04T14:24:31Z myztic: dlowe: dim: book / online tutorial -> any suggestions maybe? :)
2015-06-04T14:24:32Z dlowe: It'd be a bit like hungarian CL, I guess.
2015-06-04T14:24:32Z dim: appart from making docs harder to find, what would it provide? ;-)
2015-06-04T14:24:32Z Xach: debian 1st
2015-06-04T14:24:47Z dlowe: Xach: haha. yes.
2015-06-04T14:24:50Z dim: myztic: Practical Common Lisp
2015-06-04T14:24:58Z Xach: myztic: i don't think i've heard of it
2015-06-04T14:25:23Z dlowe: but I have a reinforced habit of blabbing about things that should happen on here, and then eventually someone does them. Like local package nicknames.
2015-06-04T14:25:57Z myztic: dim: thank you :)
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2015-06-04T14:26:37Z dlowe: myztic: some people prefer the style of Land of Lisp
2015-06-04T14:26:47Z myztic: dim: it's also available online, though if it's any good I'll most likely buy it at some point
2015-06-04T14:26:51Z dlowe is not one of those people, but it's still worth mentioning.
2015-06-04T14:27:08Z myztic: dlowe: it's on my list, seems super interesting
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2015-06-04T14:28:14Z myztic: Guess I will autojoin this channel
2015-06-04T14:28:23Z myztic: will try to keep stupid questions to a minimum though ;)
2015-06-04T14:28:53Z dlowe: stupid questions are fine.  #clnoobs is a place specialized for them
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2015-06-04T14:29:05Z myztic: dlowe: they are not always fine
2015-06-04T14:29:17Z myztic: if it's something obvious, or that could have been found out very easily
2015-06-04T14:29:24Z myztic: then they are not fine
2015-06-04T14:29:40Z dlowe: shrug. That's what #clnoobs is exactly for.
2015-06-04T14:29:59Z dim: it's fine as long as you accept that the answer might be a link to the docs, and that you then read the docs before asking the next one, IMNSHO
2015-06-04T14:30:22Z myztic: very often it is a big help for me to just frame question
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2015-06-04T14:30:34Z dim: it's called "rubber duck debugging"
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2015-06-04T14:31:03Z myztic: just by formulating the question perfectly and ruling out the obvious so to not make an idiot out of myself
2015-06-04T14:31:08Z myztic: I find the solutions to my problems :D
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2015-06-04T15:36:42Z Posterdati|2: hi
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2015-06-04T18:59:26Z emaczen: I've loaded foreign libraries (I've followed the curl tutorial in the CFFI user manual) but how can I load my own C functions with CFFI?
2015-06-04T19:00:08Z |3b|: put them in a foreign library, then use cffi (or hack the runtime of your implementation of choice)
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2015-06-04T19:00:48Z emaczen: |3b|: Can you give me an example? I'm not sure what "put them in a foreign library" means.
2015-06-04T19:01:13Z emaczen: If I have a file test.c that contains a function test(), how can I load that "foreign library"?
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2015-06-04T19:01:22Z |3b|: compile the c code to a .so or .dll or .dylib, specifics depend on C toolchain/os
2015-06-04T19:01:23Z DeadTrickster: Hey! Question: my sbcl crashes with heap exhausted error, I'm trying to increase --dynamic-space-size but it looks like this options is completely ignored. What can I do?
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2015-06-04T19:01:45Z emaczen: |3b|: Thanks I should be able to figure that out then.
2015-06-04T19:01:47Z |3b|: DeadTrickster: order of options to sbcl matters, try putting it before other options
2015-06-04T19:01:58Z DeadTrickster: really? lol
2015-06-04T19:02:13Z dlowe: that seems... unprofessional
2015-06-04T19:02:19Z H4ns: emaczen: when you're on linux, try http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Program-Library-HOWTO/shared-libraries.html
2015-06-04T19:02:27Z |3b|: DeadTrickster: there are 3 or so things parsing options in sbcl, the runtime, the lisp code, and user code, so it is a bit messy :/
2015-06-04T19:02:45Z DeadTrickster: yea I remember something related
2015-06-04T19:02:53Z H4ns: other implementations share that behavior.  allegro cl is particularly messy
2015-06-04T19:02:53Z DeadTrickster: like runtime options first
2015-06-04T19:03:00Z |3b|: right
2015-06-04T19:04:00Z francogrex: linj is making me like Java
2015-06-04T19:04:06Z francogrex: cl+j also
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2015-06-04T19:05:02Z DeadTrickster: wow it didn't crashed this time with same dynamic size. The stat looks like this so far: 2or3 successful   runs and 15 fails with heap exhaust
2015-06-04T19:05:42Z DeadTrickster: maybe it depends on moon position or something
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2015-06-04T19:23:53Z emaczen: If a C function has a printf statement, where does this get printed when calling it from Lisp with CFFI?
2015-06-04T19:24:04Z emaczen: Should it print in the REPL?
2015-06-04T19:24:42Z dlowe: it probably prints it to stdout regardless
2015-06-04T19:24:54Z dlowe: if you're using slime, it'll show up in your inferior-lisp buffer
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2015-06-04T19:26:42Z francogrex: it can show up in the inferior-lisp buffer but not necessarily... I think a forced output is needed
2015-06-04T19:28:09Z dlowe: most libcs will flush on a line break
2015-06-04T19:29:31Z francogrex: pjb: I see you have been secretly working on Linc? I see it in http://www.informatimago.com/...
2015-06-04T19:29:35Z francogrex: :)
2015-06-04T19:30:12Z emaczen: francogrex: Yes it is not printing in *inferior-lisp*
2015-06-04T19:30:52Z Fare: what's the convention for error messages that include ~S for potentially long-ish objects? have a ~% and spaces before the ~S so it doesn't pretty-print as a big vertical mess at the end of the line?
2015-06-04T19:31:55Z emaczen: Actually, I found something show up, but I don't think I see it all the time.
2015-06-04T19:32:01Z emaczen: Regardless, I should be able to figure it out from here.
2015-06-04T19:33:04Z francogrex: emaczen: it may print when you exists the lisp process.... try it
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2015-06-04T19:34:42Z emaczen: francogrex: Yeah, I can see the output when I ,restart-inferior-lisp
2015-06-04T19:35:11Z pjb: francogrex: yes, but not recently.
2015-06-04T19:35:34Z francogrex: yes well that's the thing... use a termial to run lisp instead of emacs for these things...
2015-06-04T19:36:01Z emaczen: francogrex: It's good enough for now, I just wanted to verify that what I wrote in C does work from Lisp
2015-06-04T19:36:11Z emaczen: francogrex: Thanks!
2015-06-04T19:37:01Z francogrex: pjb: ok. It's a heavy thing... can it not be done borrowing the concept of linj that is now in open src?
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2015-06-04T19:46:10Z pjb: francogrex: probably.
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2015-06-04T20:00:35Z akkad: is there any lisp implementation of pgp?
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2015-06-04T20:03:03Z pjb: Now that facebook has it…
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2015-06-04T20:32:50Z dim: I'd like a pure CL implementation of SSL/TLS first, please? ;-)
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2015-06-04T20:43:43Z dlowe: I'd be afraid of sidechannel and timing attacks :/
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2015-06-04T20:44:07Z dlowe: pgp doesn't have that issue, thankfully
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2015-06-04T20:45:49Z dim: there's an ocaml implementation nowadays
2015-06-04T20:45:58Z dim: it could be a good source of inspiration / copy
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2015-06-04T20:49:16Z Xach: dim: of ssl/tls?
2015-06-04T20:49:33Z dennis_: is there a CL library for very simple terminal manipulation, that only provides features like clearing the screen, writing characters at points, and reading unbuffered input?
2015-06-04T20:50:06Z pjb: cl-charms
2015-06-04T20:50:19Z pjb: dennis_: also, you have this directly in clisp with the screen and keyboard packages.
2015-06-04T20:50:37Z dennis_: pjb: cl-charms is kinda finnicky and it doesnt hide the cursor
2015-06-04T20:50:45Z dennis_: but it is what I was going to fall back on anyway
2015-06-04T20:50:50Z dennis_: do you know how to hide the cursor?
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2015-06-04T20:52:42Z pjb: dennis_: try: (cl-charms/low-level:curs_set 0)
2015-06-04T20:52:48Z dennis_: thx
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2015-06-04T20:53:56Z pjb: dennis_: google for ncurse hide cursor, identify curs_set, grep sources of cl-charms for curs_set, see that it defines the cfun without using it anywhere, call it directly.
2015-06-04T20:54:19Z pjb: dennis_: + man curs_set  in the middle.
2015-06-04T20:54:46Z pjb: (in case you wondered how I knew that).
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2015-06-04T21:01:41Z dim: Xach: https://github.com/mirleft/ocaml-tls
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2015-06-04T21:03:35Z dennis_: pjb: it doesnt seem to work
2015-06-04T21:04:18Z dennis_: Symbol "CURS_SET" not found in the CL-CHARMS/LOW-LEVEL package.
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2015-06-04T21:04:36Z dennis_: the source seems to indicate that it is indeed there
2015-06-04T21:05:31Z dennis_: nvm
2015-06-04T21:05:35Z dennis_: it had to be curs-set
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2015-06-04T21:11:49Z fourier: dennis_: I use cl-ncurses, it is based on old FFI (not CFFI), but has more functions/constants from ncurses exposed than cl-charms
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2015-06-04T21:11:58Z dennis_: fourier: I tried that
2015-06-04T21:12:02Z dennis_: it didnt compile
2015-06-04T21:12:37Z fourier: really? I compiled my project successfully with both sbcl and lispworks without problems recently (on osx)
2015-06-04T21:12:46Z dennis_: Im on sbcl with linux
2015-06-04T21:12:54Z dennis_: and it complained about the .so being too short
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2015-06-04T21:13:52Z fourier: isn't it this problem ? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/17416504/unable-to-load-libncurses-with-uffi
2015-06-04T21:14:24Z dennis_: no
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2015-06-04T21:14:38Z dennis_: Error opening shared object "/lib64/libncurses.so":
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2015-06-04T21:14:42Z dennis_: /lib64/libncurses.so: file too short.
2015-06-04T21:14:48Z fourier: because as soon as I made the symlink I was able to use cl-ncurses without a problem on Debian Stable
2015-06-04T21:15:21Z fourier: wow, that is something I've never seen..
2015-06-04T21:15:36Z dennis_: also
2015-06-04T21:15:39Z dennis_: while im here
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2015-06-04T21:15:52Z dennis_: what is the most performant way to move an item to the front of a list?
2015-06-04T21:16:02Z pjb: dennis_: WFM http://paste.lisp.org/+374M
2015-06-04T21:16:18Z dennis_: ?
2015-06-04T21:16:30Z dennis_: yea
2015-06-04T21:16:34Z pjb: works for me.
2015-06-04T21:16:35Z dennis_: that works for me
2015-06-04T21:16:47Z dennis_: charms works
2015-06-04T21:16:51Z dennis_: I just dont really like it
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2015-06-04T21:16:59Z dennis_: but im abstracting the bits I dont like
2015-06-04T21:17:04Z dennis_: and now that the cursor works
2015-06-04T21:17:06Z dennis_: its all good
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2015-06-04T23:09:09Z dnm: Curse this small laptop screen.
2015-06-04T23:09:16Z dnm: (but only sometimes.)
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2015-06-05T01:52:48Z nyef: Bloody Linux. Just found out that ~/.profile isn't getting sourced when I start an X session or when I start a terminal window from X. /-:
2015-06-05T01:53:29Z nyef: (Debian wheezy, with backports, mate desktop.)
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2015-06-05T02:16:33Z nyef: Okay, putting the SBCL_HOME and PATH settings in ~/.bashrc instead of ~/.profile gets me a working system. Lovely. /-:
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2015-06-05T02:17:48Z pillton: If you build SBCL with the prefix option you shouldn't need the SBCL_HOME variable.
2015-06-05T02:18:15Z nyef: Yes, yes, but I'd still need PATH !
2015-06-05T02:18:50Z pillton: I just symlink one to the other for that.
2015-06-05T02:19:02Z nyef: ... wha?
2015-06-05T02:19:25Z pillton: ln -sf .bashrc .profile
2015-06-05T02:19:31Z nyef: Ah.
2015-06-05T02:19:37Z nyef: But they're already separate files.
2015-06-05T02:20:00Z pillton: Remove one first. :)
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2015-06-05T02:20:42Z nyef: Shouldn't have to.
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2015-06-05T02:24:09Z pjb: nyef: obvious, ~/.profile is a sh / bash rc file.  Would you expect X to source ~/.clisprc.lisp???
2015-06-05T02:24:48Z pillton: It also depends on how the shell starts. One is sourced upon SSH, another is source upon login.
2015-06-05T02:24:50Z nyef: Not obvious: ~/.profile includes provision for sourcing ~/.bashrc if it is run by bash, and it IS run if I use bash --login.
2015-06-05T02:25:11Z pjb: Yes. that's backward compatibility between bash and sh.
2015-06-05T02:25:27Z pjb: But again, X has nothing to do with sh and bash.
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2015-06-05T02:25:56Z pjb: Also you should not confuse environment variable inheriting with sourcing shell scripts.
2015-06-05T02:26:36Z nyef: Okay, so where is the one place I should be editing (and it should be ONE PLACE) to set my $PATH and any other environment variables?
2015-06-05T02:26:52Z nyef: For however I spawn a shell, or start an X session, or whatever.
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2015-06-05T02:39:27Z pjb: nyef: you would have to do like I do with my lisp rc files: load a common file from all the rc files of all the programs for which you want to set up a similar environment.  DUH.  This is basic programming.
2015-06-05T02:39:44Z nyef: Bloody nuisance.
2015-06-05T02:40:09Z nyef: One of the reasons I use a distro in the first place is to have the bullshit parts taken care of.
2015-06-05T02:40:46Z pjb: Hence the sourcing of .profile in .bash_profile and in .xsession
2015-06-05T02:41:10Z pjb: I fail to see how a distro can set up PERSONNAL USER CONFIGURATIONS!
2015-06-05T02:41:53Z nyef: It's not supposed to set up personal user configurations, it's supposed to provide ONE PLACE for users to set their configurations. And in this case, the obvious place Doesn't Work.
2015-06-05T02:42:10Z pjb: Again, different programs, different rc files.
2015-06-05T02:42:28Z pjb: There's no reason to want the same PATH to run shell commands and to double-click on icons.
2015-06-05T02:42:48Z Zhivago: Perhaps the idea of 'one place' is the problem.
2015-06-05T02:42:49Z nyef: Yes. Yes, there is.
2015-06-05T02:43:32Z pjb: I mean, as a power user, you may be able to set up a common path for all your environment, but you're supposed to know what you're doing and not shoot yourself in the foot.  A distro cannot do that for you.
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2015-06-05T02:45:39Z pjb: And in anycase, there are still variations of environment you will want depending on the program, so even if you set up a common file, you will still have to edit the program specific rc files.
2015-06-05T02:46:29Z pjb: eg. xset, xrdb, xmodmap is only run from .xsession, not from .profile or .bash_profile.
2015-06-05T02:48:52Z drmeister: What I started to do to set up my development environment is to set all my environment variables within a "makefile" and use "make dev-emacs" or "make dev-shell" with that makefile to start up a new shell or a new emacs session that has the environment set exactly how I want it.  It's portable.
2015-06-05T02:50:13Z nyef: That makes a certain amount of sense for a development environment, but I'm trying to get a basic sbcl environment available for my normal user account.
2015-06-05T02:50:19Z drmeister: Otherwise .bash_profile, .bashrc files turned into a mess of environment variables and I always had problems moving from one machine to another.
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2015-06-05T02:50:47Z nyef: I have problems moving from one machine to another anyway.
2015-06-05T02:51:07Z Zhivago: With virtual machines, you can just take it with you. :)
2015-06-05T02:51:27Z pillton: There are 5673 repositories on github called dot-files.
2015-06-05T02:51:46Z nyef: With virtual machines I get all the keyboard problems of moving from one machine to another without actually having to move from one machine to another.
2015-06-05T02:51:56Z Zhivago: You just need a virtual keyboard.
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2015-06-05T02:52:11Z pjb: right, displayed on the screen, and you click on it.
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2015-06-05T02:54:01Z Zhivago: I wonder if they sell keyboards with ip addresses yet.
2015-06-05T02:54:16Z pjb: Actually, yes.
2015-06-05T02:54:21Z nyef: They certainly sell keyboards with MAC addresses...
2015-06-05T02:54:27Z pjb: They sell a keyboard, with an android included.
2015-06-05T02:54:39Z Zhivago: Well, there you go. Get a wireless keyboard and have your virtual machine login to it.
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2015-06-05T02:57:11Z Zhivago: Then you can get a similar display and sticky-tape them together.
2015-06-05T02:57:22Z nyef: Not duct tape?
2015-06-05T02:57:59Z nyef: I mean, if you're going for the bodged-together aesthetic, you might as well go all the way.
2015-06-05T02:58:16Z pjb: Zhivago: http://www.cnx-software.com/2015/02/02/oneboard-pro-plus-android-keyboard/
2015-06-05T02:59:44Z nyef: ... How positively dreadful.
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2015-06-05T03:34:42Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-06-05T03:36:03Z pillton: G'day beach.
2015-06-05T03:37:24Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-06-05T03:38:04Z beach: Phase 2 of SICL CLOS bootstrapping using first-class global environments is now complete.  I now have a complete mirror of the MOP class hierarchy in the form of ordinary host standard objects.  YAY!
2015-06-05T03:38:28Z nyef: Congratulations.
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2015-06-05T03:39:53Z beach: Thanks.  I had to re-write large parts of SICL CLOS, because I made several adaptations so that I could bootstrap it when I didn't have first-class global environments.  These adaptations are no longer necessary, so I can have a code that looks more "natural".
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2015-06-05T03:47:00Z theos: nice
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2015-06-05T03:49:18Z beach: I also decided to temporarily forget about what the AMOP says about built-in classes so that I can write (defclass t () () (:metaclass built-in-class)) etc.
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2015-06-05T04:16:09Z theos: can SBCL transform tailrecursive functions into loops?
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2015-06-05T04:16:29Z Bike: yes, the exact conditions are in the manual i believe
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2015-06-05T04:18:07Z theos: ok thanks
2015-06-05T04:18:14Z smokeink: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149148 any idea anyone? i'm stuck
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2015-06-05T05:42:02Z spacebat`: I've got a bunch of cases where print-unreadable-object is used for printing things, including conditions, and code which is called within with-standard-io-syntax that may error with these conditions, and handler-bind lambdas that may try to print these objects :)
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2015-06-05T05:43:21Z spacebat`: because w-s-i-s sets *print-readably* to t, I sometimes run into a print-not-readable error
2015-06-05T05:43:35Z spacebat`: that obscures the underlying error and makes for a bad day
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2015-06-05T05:46:04Z spacebat`: I could make an alternative, call it with-unreadable-io-syntax that binds *print-readably* to nil, and use that substitute but that could have a lot of knock-on effects to track down
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2015-06-05T05:47:26Z spacebat`: or I could make an alternative to print-unreadable-object that lets me configure whether or how much it cares about *print-readably*
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2015-06-05T05:50:42Z pjb: Or you could just bind *print-readably* to nil.
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2015-06-05T05:55:22Z pjb: (with-output-to-string (out) (with-standard-io-syntax (let ((*print-readably* nil)) (print-unreadable-object (42 out :type t))))) --> "#<(INTEGER 0 1152921504606846975)>" ;-)
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2015-06-05T05:56:06Z spacebat`: yes, the problem is that print-readably has effects on a bunch of other print control variables
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2015-06-05T05:57:19Z spacebat`: hence the "lot of knock-on effects" I fear
2015-06-05T05:58:49Z spacebat`: I think I'll define a variant of print-unreadable-object
2015-06-05T06:00:33Z spacebat`: print-unreadable-object-for-sure-matey
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2015-06-05T06:01:50Z spacebat`: thanks for your suggestion pjb
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2015-06-05T06:04:58Z spacebat`: what implementation are you using pjb? I get #<FIXNUM 150> on LW6.1
2015-06-05T06:05:30Z spacebat`: that is, with :identity t also
2015-06-05T06:05:40Z pjb: ccl
2015-06-05T06:06:07Z spacebat`: ok, I haven't used it much
2015-06-05T06:06:59Z pjb: print-unreadable-object output is implementation dependant.
2015-06-05T06:07:15Z spacebat`: yup, just idle interest
2015-06-05T06:07:55Z pjb: Some implementation have fixnum has a built-in class.
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2015-06-05T06:34:25Z mrkkrp: Hi, I'm playing with Travis CI trying to build there one CL project. To build it I first need to install Buildapp, but I'm getting rather strange error message saying that «Symbol "EXIT" not found in the SB-EXT package». Here is the log: https://travis-ci.org/mrkkrp/shtookovina#L186 . Any ideas why this may happen?
2015-06-05T06:34:49Z Quadrescence: change EXIT to QUIT
2015-06-05T06:35:01Z Quadrescence: EXIT was killed off some time ago I think
2015-06-05T06:35:34Z mrkkrp: If it's the case, Xach should change it in Buildapp.
2015-06-05T06:36:15Z Quadrescence: not a false fact
2015-06-05T06:37:01Z H4ns: QUIT was killed, EXIT is new
2015-06-05T06:37:18Z H4ns: mrkkrp: you're probably running a rather old sbcl version
2015-06-05T06:37:20Z Quadrescence: oh oops
2015-06-05T06:37:21Z Quadrescence: my bad
2015-06-05T06:37:22Z mrkkrp: It's strange because it works on my machine where I have all the latest releases.
2015-06-05T06:37:32Z Quadrescence: H4ns is right
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2015-06-05T06:38:22Z pillton: I need to read that thread again about QUIT and EXIT. It got very long.
2015-06-05T06:38:24Z mrkkrp: Hmm, what to do? Should I build SBCL there too?
2015-06-05T06:38:35Z H4ns: mrkkrp: yes.  or use QUIT
2015-06-05T06:38:48Z H4ns: mrkkrp: it was not "killed", only deprecated
2015-06-05T06:40:05Z mrkkrp: Don't want to use deprecated stuff :)
2015-06-05T06:40:31Z H4ns: then install a fresher sbcl in your travis instance
2015-06-05T06:40:50Z mrkkrp: Right, I'll do it.
2015-06-05T06:41:11Z mrkkrp: Maybe someone has already written some .travis.yml that builds SBCL along the way?
2015-06-05T06:41:48Z mrkkrp: Although it's pretty easy to write, I'm sure.
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2015-06-05T06:45:26Z kami: Good morning #lisp.
2015-06-05T06:45:55Z pillton: G'day kami.
2015-06-05T06:46:11Z Quadrescence: Who's gonna make the portable UTF-8 *TERMINAL-IO*? :)
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2015-06-05T06:47:47Z pillton: The first person to transition from apathy to emotional.
2015-06-05T06:48:04Z Quadrescence: (:
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2015-06-05T07:24:39Z average: does anyone find something like this useful ? https://asciinema.org/a/e3dfurhxeltaqp45xhgjo8oe7
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2015-06-05T07:32:56Z loz1: average: you mean ascii video or github issues in emacs?
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2015-06-05T08:26:39Z mood: mrkkrp: You can use cl-travis (https://github.com/luismbo/cl-travis)
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2015-06-05T08:50:32Z loz1: mrkkrp: i have working example here https://github.com/maximvl/lbot/blob/master/.travis.yml
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2015-06-05T08:53:17Z mood: On that note, does someone know why clisp and ecl using cl-travis complain about interning into the COMMON-LISP package? I checked a while ago, but couldn't find a reason for *package* to not be CL-USER
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2015-06-05T08:54:56Z loz1: mood: i guess i saw this problem, let me check how i fixed it
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2015-06-05T08:56:35Z loz1: mood: i just removed them from testing environment =)
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2015-06-05T09:01:46Z mood: loz1: That kind of breaks the testing setup though. On error it'll go into the debugger and wait until travis times out
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2015-06-05T09:02:56Z loz1: mood: you always can add handler-case for tests
2015-06-05T09:03:13Z loz1: to prevent running the debugger
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2015-06-05T09:09:32Z lieven: what symbols are you messing with? ANSI doesn't forbid adding symbols to CL, let alone CL-USER.
2015-06-05T09:10:38Z mood: lieven: (intern "c" :common-lisp) -> "Lock on package COMMON-LISP violated when interning c while in package"
2015-06-05T09:10:49Z loz1: >INTERN("CXML-XMLS"): #<PACKAGE COMMON-LISP> is locked
2015-06-05T09:10:51Z loz1: same here
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2015-06-05T09:11:33Z lieven: I think that's non comforming
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2015-06-05T09:14:35Z mood: lieven: SBCL, CLISP, ECL all do it. CCL doesn't complain
2015-06-05T09:16:06Z mood: SBCL points to clhs 11.1.2.1.2, but I can't quickly figure out how that forbids interning new symbols
2015-06-05T09:16:10Z lieven: typically there's a WITHOUT-PACKAGE-LOCK primitive or similar
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2015-06-05T09:20:20Z p_l: I wonder, has anyone tried to get some clarification whether Symbolics software could be put online for non-commercial purposes (and archiving)?
2015-06-05T09:21:08Z lieven: especially since 11.1.2.1.2.1 give you much leeway for symbols you've put in CL yourself
2015-06-05T09:21:45Z mood: I fixed the problem for now by explicitly specifying cl-user::c
2015-06-05T09:22:32Z loz1: there is a lot of dynamic interning in cxml =(
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2015-06-05T10:14:40Z mrkkrp: mood, loz1: thanks!
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2015-06-05T11:57:53Z loz1: how can i refresh package definition in image after i changed it in a file?
2015-06-05T11:58:10Z Shinmera: ? Recompile the form?
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2015-06-05T11:59:42Z Xach: loz1: re-evaluate it in some way. compile & load, load, or evaluate it.
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2015-06-05T12:00:17Z loz1: Xach Shinmera i did, i removed :use statement, but package still has symbols in it
2015-06-05T12:00:38Z Shinmera: clhs unuse-package
2015-06-05T12:00:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_unuse_.htm
2015-06-05T12:00:44Z Shinmera: also look at
2015-06-05T12:00:45Z Shinmera: clhs defpackage
2015-06-05T12:00:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm
2015-06-05T12:01:16Z Shinmera: "If the new definition is at variance with the current state of that package, the consequences are undefined; an implementation might choose to modify the existing package to reflect the new definition"
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2015-06-05T12:03:32Z loz1: delete-package did it, thanks)
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2015-06-05T12:04:16Z Xach: Shinmera: how does qt-libs fetch its stuff?
2015-06-05T12:04:41Z Shinmera: Xach: by default it downloads an archive from the KDE servers using drakma.
2015-06-05T12:05:00Z Shinmera: I still have to add checksumming for that, since the KDE servers don't work with HTTPS for some reason.
2015-06-05T12:06:36Z loz1: why (functionp #'defun) is t ?
2015-06-05T12:07:16Z Shinmera: because #' returns a function object?
2015-06-05T12:07:27Z loz1: then how can i distinct macro symbols from function symbols?
2015-06-05T12:07:44Z Shinmera: clhs macro-function
2015-06-05T12:07:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_macro_.htm
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2015-06-05T12:31:07Z loz1: how can i make dynamically interned symbol internal or external?
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2015-06-05T12:32:46Z Zhivago: By exporting it?
2015-06-05T12:33:59Z loz1: looks ok, thanks
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2015-06-05T12:41:26Z Xach: eudoxia: hello! something is hanging for me when building swank-protocol. it hangs in tests.
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2015-06-05T12:41:43Z eudoxia: Xach: literally just saw your comment this instant
2015-06-05T12:42:13Z Xach: eudoxia: i am attacking on all fronts
2015-06-05T12:43:02Z eudoxia: Xach: how do i check the slime version again
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2015-06-05T12:44:16Z Xach: eudoxia: I don't know, sorry.
2015-06-05T12:44:28Z Xach: eudoxia: luis might know?
2015-06-05T12:44:54Z eudoxia: hm
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2015-06-05T12:48:07Z Xach: hmm indeed, i can't reproduce outside of my ql build system
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2015-06-05T12:49:39Z eudoxia: Xach: oh, if that's the case, here's what's probably the problem
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2015-06-05T12:49:56Z eudoxia: swank-protocol and lime use lisp-invocation to start a Lisp process for running the Swank server
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2015-06-05T12:53:09Z Xach: ok?
2015-06-05T12:54:33Z Xach: I don't understand. Why is that a problem?
2015-06-05T12:55:25Z eudoxia: the process that's started loads :swank-protocol using quicklisp, probably from outside your ql build env
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2015-06-05T12:55:37Z eudoxia: or inside idk it's probably trying to find it from somewhere where it can't
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2015-06-05T12:57:17Z Xach: how does it choose what lisp program to start?
2015-06-05T12:57:46Z Xach: Can you suggest a workaround? My environment is pure asdf, no quicklisp.
2015-06-05T12:58:34Z eudoxia: i think what i'll do is get rid of lisp-invocation for testing and just start a separate thread, though maybe i had a reason to not do that
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2015-06-05T12:59:00Z eudoxia: alternative replace (ql:quickload :swank-protocol) in the testing code with (asdf:load-system :swank-protocol)
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2015-06-05T12:59:51Z Xach: I guess I would have expected an error, not a hang
2015-06-05T13:00:07Z Xach: Maybe the sub-lisp is hung in the debugger or something?
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2015-06-05T13:00:35Z eudoxia: that is possible
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2015-06-05T13:01:51Z Xach: Is this something you're likely to fiddle with today?
2015-06-05T13:02:00Z Xach: I am working on a release for this weekend
2015-06-05T13:03:16Z eudoxia: if that is the case i'll put it first on my todo, so i'll likely have it fixed before saturday
2015-06-05T13:03:23Z eudoxia: that is, today
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2015-06-05T13:06:52Z Xach: i can also blacklist the tests for now
2015-06-05T13:08:06Z eudoxia: if i can't fix it yeah maybe that'll be necessary
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2015-06-05T13:08:15Z Shinmera: eudoxia: By the way, I finally got around to setting up travis for Qtools.
2015-06-05T13:08:48Z eudoxia: Shinmera: how are you enjoying it
2015-06-05T13:09:15Z Shinmera: eudoxia: 's aight. Wish it natively supported CL.
2015-06-05T13:09:27Z eudoxia shrugs
2015-06-05T13:09:31Z eudoxia: cl-travis works well enough
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2015-06-05T13:09:52Z eudoxia: if we get enough libraries there with language: common-lisp maybe by force of numbers they'll support it c;
2015-06-05T13:10:04Z Shinmera: Also: Wish that mac testing was available to me, so I could properly test qt-libs on that platform.
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2015-06-05T13:10:49Z eudoxia: hm, they closed requests for OS X testing
2015-06-05T13:11:04Z Shinmera: Xach: I added checksum testing to qt-libs, so it should be at least a bit safe in regards to the source it downloads.
2015-06-05T13:11:11Z Shinmera: eudoxia: yeah.
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2015-06-05T13:14:23Z Shinmera thinks his next money waste is going to be on buying a Mac system so he can at least test all his garbage.
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2015-06-05T13:15:37Z oleo: hello
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2015-06-05T14:06:01Z theos: hi
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2015-06-05T14:41:54Z failproofshark: hello
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2015-06-05T15:25:22Z kami: Good afternoon.
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2015-06-05T15:34:01Z k-stz: I showed lisp to a friend today. As I showed that you can inspect the elements of an ASSERT that signals error he wonderer if that would be inefficient. Because the debugger "was running" and if there was a way to dissable it.
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2015-06-05T15:34:26Z k-stz: I gave him a "not sure" and a "probably declarations" answer…
2015-06-05T15:34:46Z dlowe: If you hit an assertion, efficiency shouldn't be foremost on your mind
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2015-06-05T15:35:18Z Bike: but if it is anyway for some reason, http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Enabling-and-Disabling-the-Debugger
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2015-06-05T15:35:27Z Bike: similar in other implementations, prolly
2015-06-05T15:35:53Z H4ns: disabling the debugger is unlikely to have a performance effect, though.
2015-06-05T15:36:00Z dlowe: Most lisp implementations sacrifice space for speed. Big cross-reference tables that get built during compilation but don't affect execution speed
2015-06-05T15:36:31Z H4ns: k-stz: next time you get into that discussion, it would make sense if you asked what specific concerns the person has.
2015-06-05T15:36:33Z dlowe: well, I say most. Some. The ones I typically use :D
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2015-06-05T15:37:02Z H4ns: k-stz: it seems to me that assuming that the presence of a debugger would have a negative performance impact is somewhat uninformed.
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2015-06-05T15:37:49Z dlowe: I presumed he was referring to the inspectability of it all
2015-06-05T15:37:52Z k-stz: Bike: thanks there. H4ns it seems that it really is just a non-issue, you dissable the debugger when you have to ship.
2015-06-05T15:38:06Z fe[nl]ix: maybe he was thinking of a ptrace() process-level debugger
2015-06-05T15:38:28Z fe[nl]ix: that does have a monitoring overhead
2015-06-05T15:38:39Z H4ns: or maybe he was thinking that debugging symbols would only be present when optimization is switched off, like early c compilers did
2015-06-05T15:39:07Z dlowe: From reddit: So, I'm faced (again) with the paradox of choice when using CL -- I'm trying to decide which set of libraries and frameworks to use to build a database-driven web application. The sheer number of choices for: 1) web server, 2) webapp framework, 3) HTML templating, 4) JSON mapping, 5) database access... are pretty overwhelming.
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2015-06-05T15:39:17Z dlowe: That's.... something I've never heard before
2015-06-05T15:39:27Z pjb: k-stz: the debugger "was NOT running"!  How silly a conception!  Functions don't "run" just for being present in the program.  They're only executed when called!
2015-06-05T15:39:33Z dlowe: "OMG! Common Lisp has too many libraries!"
2015-06-05T15:39:47Z pjb: k-stz: somehow, I doubt this friend had actors in mind…
2015-06-05T15:39:57Z jasom: all of the json libraries are a pain
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2015-06-05T15:40:27Z jasom: but part of it is just the fact that the naive mapping between JSON and s-expr is very much not reversible
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2015-06-05T15:41:05Z H4ns: json is a pain in that it suggests that a mapping between host language data structures and json would be trivial, where that is only the case for javascript.
2015-06-05T15:41:05Z jasom: If you use alists or plists for objects then, null, false, empty-array, and empty object all map to nil
2015-06-05T15:41:47Z jasom: H4ns: several other languages are fairly trivial as well (e.g. python which has None, false and empty-list as separate types, and a canonical associative type (dicts))
2015-06-05T15:42:13Z H4ns: jasom: right.  it goes from trivial (javascript) to rather painful (c)
2015-06-05T15:42:27Z H4ns: jasom: with cl being more on the rather painful side
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2015-06-05T15:43:07Z jasom: If you map JS arrays to lisp arrays, and JS objects to hash-tables then you end up only with the null/false ambiguity, but I've yet to see a library that does that by default
2015-06-05T15:43:09Z pjb: Define types: json-object json-string json-number json-array and convert JSON only to/from those types.
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2015-06-05T15:44:54Z H4ns: jasom: you mean like yason does it, if so instructed?  (http://hanshuebner.github.io/yason/#mapping)
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2015-06-05T15:45:09Z jasom: H4ns: I sayd "by default"
2015-06-05T15:45:25Z H4ns: ah, i missed that bit.
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2015-06-05T15:45:50Z H4ns: i think i'd not want that by default, because both vectors and hash tables are not my preferred data structures when writing CL code.
2015-06-05T15:46:12Z H4ns: well, i don't "think" that, i know that and that is why yason's defaults are differen :D
2015-06-05T15:46:19Z jasom: H4ns: well I would like a mapping by default that can survive a round-trip
2015-06-05T15:46:42Z jasom: I would have a special symbol for null and use nil for false
2015-06-05T15:46:48Z H4ns: mmmhhh
2015-06-05T15:46:56Z jasom: (under the theory that false is more common than null)
2015-06-05T15:47:23Z H4ns: that is how you sacrifice sanity in your programs to appease the deficiencies of an external data format that you're using :)
2015-06-05T15:47:47Z jasom: by default survive round-trip you either need something ugly like I suggest, or define a whole set of objects that are not built-in to lisp like pjb suggests
2015-06-05T15:48:28Z oGMo: jasom: conspack? heh
2015-06-05T15:48:38Z oGMo: or do you need json
2015-06-05T15:49:34Z jasom: H4ns: what I have actually done in the past was to use cl-json which allows customization of decoding of aggregate types, and imposed a schema on my data, so it can treat nil, null and empty-list correctly
2015-06-05T15:49:45Z fe[nl]ix puts his QA hat on
2015-06-05T15:49:49Z fe[nl]ix: having a bijective mapping is *the* most important thing with serialization
2015-06-05T15:50:00Z oGMo: json is quick and dirty but given the limitations, often _far_ too dirty ;/
2015-06-05T15:50:09Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: and out-of-the-box no JSON library for lisp provides one
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2015-06-05T15:51:20Z fe[nl]ix: doing QA for a CL startup made me end up looking into Ada & Coq
2015-06-05T15:51:30Z fe[nl]ix: feel free to laugh
2015-06-05T15:51:34Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: no ATS?
2015-06-05T15:51:42Z fe[nl]ix: too buggy
2015-06-05T15:51:57Z fe[nl]ix: otherwise, it's very nice
2015-06-05T15:52:17Z average: so yesterday I was reading some stuff
2015-06-05T15:52:31Z average: people are saying elisp doesn't have a proper OO system
2015-06-05T15:52:44Z average: and that EIEIO is not that good
2015-06-05T15:52:54Z Bike: this channel is common lisp, not elisp
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2015-06-05T15:57:10Z average: Bike: oh I didn't know that
2015-06-05T15:57:11Z average: gee
2015-06-05T15:57:18Z average: thanks Bike , that was very useful
2015-06-05T15:57:31Z average: you are a true friend of the squirrels, puppies and penguins
2015-06-05T15:57:42Z Bike: okay, so if you did know that, why are you asking about elisp here?
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2015-06-05T15:58:02Z Bike: also, please treat me like a human being and not a wall to make sarcastic jokes at, i would appreciate it
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2015-06-05T15:58:30Z H4ns: Bike: but you need to read, there was no sarcasm involved i'd say
2015-06-05T15:58:53Z Bike: i am pretty friendly with dogs, it's true.
2015-06-05T15:59:36Z H4ns: BUT SCREW THEM FRIGGIN SQUIRRELS!
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2015-06-05T16:00:42Z k-stz: concerning the debugger: my friend, I just asked him again, was just surprised about lisp having a build-in debugger. As the concern boiled down to it using more space.
2015-06-05T16:01:01Z k-stz: and man am I bad at explaining macros
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2015-06-05T16:02:30Z k-stz: though 'D' has macros too i've been told, so there might be a popular lang to compare it too. Probably weaker considering D's syntax
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2015-06-05T16:03:17Z oGMo: "macros are code that writes other code"
2015-06-05T16:03:29Z Bike: a macro function is a regular lisp function; the thing that makes it a "macro" is that the compiler/evaluator/etc processors are set up to call the macro function on certain forms, and process the result instead of the original form.
2015-06-05T16:03:32Z oGMo: doesn't really explain the _implications_, but
2015-06-05T16:04:18Z k-stz: oGMo: I went with that and also "syntax abstraction", my personal favorite
2015-06-05T16:05:12Z oGMo: k-stz: i think the hardest part is on the understanding end. showing some code might help, but harder if the person doesn't know lisp already
2015-06-05T16:05:54Z k-stz: oGMo: i showed some very simple stuff. But thinking back about my own struggle I was always thinking "yeah, well I can write this with a couple function calls, why bother"
2015-06-05T16:06:29Z average: Bike: sometimes I sleep on my hand and when I wake up, it feels very numb
2015-06-05T16:06:43Z oGMo: k-stz: another possibly easy one is demonstrating implementing flow control
2015-06-05T16:06:46Z average: at times I've even gotten scared that my arm was completely numb
2015-06-05T16:06:56Z average: well, good thing I have 2 hands
2015-06-05T16:07:08Z average: but, it's a bit frightening
2015-06-05T16:07:36Z Bike: Look, can I help you or are you going to keep being oblique.
2015-06-05T16:07:43Z oGMo: while you _can_ do that with functions/lambdas, the point is nicer syntax
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2015-06-05T16:08:53Z average: Bike: you could give me a beer for attending this IRC congregation
2015-06-05T16:09:25Z oGMo: Bike: turing test failure
2015-06-05T16:09:38Z Bike: yeah /ignore, oh well
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2015-06-05T16:10:05Z average: some people take things very serious, like IRC is super-serious nowadays
2015-06-05T16:10:06Z jasom: k-stz: I find that I don't want to write macros that often, but when I do, they are really nice.
2015-06-05T16:10:12Z k-stz: oGMo: with flow control you mean some macro that controlls order of evaluation? To build a DOLIST etc?
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2015-06-05T16:10:48Z jasom: k-stz: also things that would have to be new syntax in other languages can be libraries in lisp (e.g. iterate)
2015-06-05T16:10:49Z oGMo: k-stz: implementing stuff like IF, WHILE, etc
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2015-06-05T16:12:03Z k-stz: oGMo: gotcha. jasom: like the argument "java needed a year for the comittee to aprove of the 'foreach' syntax to be included, while lispers hack a macro together in their coffee break"
2015-06-05T16:12:26Z jasom: k-stz: right.  I use Python and "with" as an example too
2015-06-05T16:12:35Z average: k-stz: any $-heavy project in Lisp ?
2015-06-05T16:12:40Z average: because there are plenty of those in Java
2015-06-05T16:13:02Z oGMo: and the side benefit that new syntaxes aren't compulsory
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2015-06-05T16:13:12Z k-stz: average: you mean popular software that made millions of dollars?
2015-06-05T16:13:13Z dlowe: $-heavy?  dollars or perl syntax?
2015-06-05T16:13:36Z jasom: average: no, lisp projects always finish under-budget :P
2015-06-05T16:13:45Z jasom ducks
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2015-06-05T16:14:07Z k-stz: average: ITA stuff autoCAD and that game developer naughty dog, and "mirrai" i think
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2015-06-05T16:14:31Z k-stz: pg's viaweb
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2015-06-05T16:14:59Z dlowe: ITA stuff known as Google Flights these days
2015-06-05T16:15:02Z k-stz: jasom: :b
2015-06-05T16:15:05Z average: https://www.artima.com/underthehood/gc.html
2015-06-05T16:15:17Z average: When programming in non-garbage-collected languages the programmer can spend many late hours (or days or weeks) chasing down an elusive memory problem
2015-06-05T16:15:27Z average: When programming in Java the programmer can use that time more advantageously by getting ahead of schedule or simply going home to have a life.
2015-06-05T16:15:32Z average: <end-of-quote>
2015-06-05T16:15:48Z dlowe: when programming in garbage-collected languages, the programmer can spend many late hours (or days or weeks) chasing down an elusive memory leak
2015-06-05T16:15:55Z average: also see this picture of Perl programmers https://spiceperl.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/use_strict.jpg?w=498&h=595
2015-06-05T16:15:57Z oGMo: i still contend this is a bot
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2015-06-05T16:16:14Z dlowe: pretty cool bot, if so
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2015-06-05T16:16:38Z k-stz: woe is me then
2015-06-05T16:16:39Z fe[nl]ix: we had some data we wanted to store into a JSON column in Postgres, and all three of st-json, cl-json & com.gigamonkeys.json generated incorrect JSON in some corner cases
2015-06-05T16:16:51Z oGMo: i dunno, randomly linking off-topic stuff and making random statements.. i've seen better
2015-06-05T16:17:16Z average: k-stz: yes, popular software that makes millions of dollars
2015-06-05T16:17:23Z average: k-stz: or just widely used software packages
2015-06-05T16:17:34Z average: dlowe: no, not Perl syntax
2015-06-05T16:17:39Z fe[nl]ix: one was(is?) doing some pretty-printing and output a #\Newline between key and value in a json object
2015-06-05T16:17:59Z average: oGMo: you're my friend forever, here is a stack of parenthesis for you
2015-06-05T16:18:18Z average: ((((..))))
2015-06-05T16:18:30Z dlowe: fe[nl]ix: I hope you did your duty and filed bugs before abandoning them
2015-06-05T16:18:52Z fe[nl]ix: I did not
2015-06-05T16:19:07Z dlowe: (newlines between key and value is a syntax error? wot?)
2015-06-05T16:19:30Z fe[nl]ix: Postgres implements the RFC faithfully
2015-06-05T16:19:50Z fe[nl]ix: not of the "be liberal in what you accept" persuasion
2015-06-05T16:19:51Z oGMo: dlowe: yeah also no comments or trailing commas.. it's pretty annoying
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2015-06-05T16:22:05Z fe[nl]ix: JSON is a strict subset of Javascript syntax, at least according to RFCs 4627/7159
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2015-06-05T16:25:30Z pjb: average: I see no parentheses there, only cons cells.
2015-06-05T16:25:53Z average: pjb: yes but you haven't looked closely
2015-06-05T16:26:20Z jasom got a read error on the ..
2015-06-05T16:26:56Z average: i should buy a lisp machine
2015-06-05T16:27:56Z xj54y: Why buy a lisp machine when you may emulate a lisp machine freely? >_>
2015-06-05T16:28:27Z ronh-: xj54y you can't make sweet love to a lisp machine emulator
2015-06-05T16:28:42Z xj54y: ronh-, why not?
2015-06-05T16:28:53Z ronh-: it doesn't exist in the physical world
2015-06-05T16:29:00Z p_l: xj54y: also, there's rather... lack of fully-capable lisp machine emulators
2015-06-05T16:29:15Z xj54y: oh you guys... :\
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2015-06-05T16:31:38Z average: ronh-: Paul McCarthy died of heart failure
2015-06-05T16:31:44Z average: ronh-: because he didn't receive enough love
2015-06-05T16:32:00Z average: ronh-: so.. I don't think you an make love to a lisp machine
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2015-06-05T16:32:20Z average: btw, I'm not claiming what I wrote makes sense necessarily
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2015-06-05T16:33:35Z xj54y: average, he didn't love himself enough? :-(
2015-06-05T16:34:18Z xj54y: I wonder, am I going to die from a lack of love too? ;_;
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2015-06-05T16:49:18Z average: xj54y: maybe you will, who knows
2015-06-05T16:49:25Z average: but one thing's for sure, you will die
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2015-06-05T16:49:41Z average: eventually
2015-06-05T16:50:18Z nyef: "Immortality: A fate worse than death."
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2015-06-05T16:53:49Z average: nyef: http://imgur.com/gallery/gM5uv
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2015-06-05T16:53:56Z average: xj54y: ^^
2015-06-05T16:54:08Z average: have some soup so you can mend your worries
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2015-06-05T17:04:27Z k-stz: Bike: I like your macro explanation. Because it explains in with concepts that are already known. This is a good way to sucker somebody in that is already mesmerized. Now to just build a bridge to practical applications
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2015-06-05T17:51:30Z drmeister: In Clasp, my SYMBOL's have an "isSpecial" field (bool) associated with them.  I was thinking of implementing a CORE:SPECIALP function to test if a symbol is special in the top level environment.  Is that a bad idea?
2015-06-05T17:52:18Z drmeister: I ask because Common Lisp doesn't have a predicate like that and it seems useful - that usually means I don't understand something.
2015-06-05T17:52:41Z drmeister 's lispy sense is tingling.
2015-06-05T17:53:44Z frankS2: Anyone have any sources to recommend for "learning common lisp for non programmers"? I have done a small amount in python/ruby/c etc. but nothing big, and my knowledge is limited
2015-06-05T17:54:02Z remi`bd: what’s a special symbol for you? a dynamic binding? a special form?
2015-06-05T17:54:12Z drmeister: frankS2 "Land of Lisp"
2015-06-05T17:54:24Z sjl: frankS2: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ is a good one that starts off with pencil and paper instead of diving right into code
2015-06-05T17:55:02Z frankS2: drmeister: sjl: Thanks :)
2015-06-05T17:55:07Z drmeister: remi`bd: A defparameter or defvar
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2015-06-05T17:56:35Z drmeister: You raise a good point - I'm contemplating using this with Cleavir (a new compiler I'm incorporating) I better check if this is supposed to test if something is declared special locally as well.
2015-06-05T17:57:07Z drmeister: Nope, just global.
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2015-06-05T18:27:44Z digiorgi: when you have functions in a package that are private, you have any special convention to refer them like, private_funx?
2015-06-05T18:28:07Z digiorgi: private = unexported
2015-06-05T18:28:11Z Shinmera: Just don't export them.
2015-06-05T18:28:28Z Shinmera: Why do you need more than that?
2015-06-05T18:29:08Z oleo: you can always use the package::    prefix
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2015-06-05T18:30:09Z oleo: package::func1 package::func2
2015-06-05T18:30:37Z Shinmera: so?
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2015-06-05T18:30:48Z oleo: what about macros ?
2015-06-05T18:31:04Z Shinmera: ...what about them?
2015-06-05T18:31:40Z oleo: they are package local too not ?
2015-06-05T18:31:59Z Shinmera: Yeah, so? What does that have to do with anything?
2015-06-05T18:32:15Z oleo: nothing
2015-06-05T18:32:23Z Shinmera is completely lost
2015-06-05T18:32:24Z oleo: i was asking, it was my turn
2015-06-05T18:32:37Z oleo: independent of digiorgi....
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2015-06-05T18:35:23Z Shinmera: digiorgi: I'm confused: Are you asking how to make sure that people /cannot/ use functions, or are you asking how to use functions that aren't exported?
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2015-06-05T18:37:39Z digiorgi: for know in my code without having to go to function definitions if my functions are exported or not
2015-06-05T18:37:46Z digiorgi: it doesn't matters
2015-06-05T18:38:13Z digiorgi: in some moment i started to use private_x but was very verbose
2015-06-05T18:38:23Z digiorgi: now just simply  i put other name
2015-06-05T18:38:36Z digiorgi: function defintions = package definition
2015-06-05T18:38:37Z digiorgi: xddd
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2015-06-05T18:42:35Z jasom: digiorgi: Just don't export them from your package.  Alternatively, some people will prefix with a % for something like "This function doesn't do what you think it does"
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2015-06-05T18:53:35Z caoliver: My google-fu is weak, and I am stupid.  Is there a way of getting make.sh to take advantage of multiple CPUs when building sbcl.core, or is this necessarily a single thread task due to dependencies during the build?
2015-06-05T18:53:59Z caoliver would like to speed up core builds if possible.
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2015-06-05T18:59:58Z nyef: caoliver: The SBCL build process is single-threaded. It would be a lot of work to allow it to take any advantage of multiple cores like that.
2015-06-05T19:00:14Z akkad: just use faster machine
2015-06-05T19:00:17Z nyef: caoliver: And that's even before assessing for any dependencies of the sort that you're worried about.
2015-06-05T19:00:22Z caoliver was afraid of that.
2015-06-05T19:01:10Z caoliver: Faster machine == more dinero.
2015-06-05T19:01:48Z nyef: And here I'm thinking "and WHERE precisely do you expect me to find a faster machine in these architectures?"
2015-06-05T19:02:13Z caoliver is NOT planning to run SBCL on a ras-pi
2015-06-05T19:02:25Z caoliver: I'm not that much a fan of pain.
2015-06-05T19:02:30Z jasom wonders at what the peak single-threaded performance per dollar over the past decade has been
2015-06-05T19:02:31Z nyef: Hah!
2015-06-05T19:02:57Z jasom: I suspect it's rate of improvement has greatly slowed
2015-06-05T19:03:02Z jasom: s/it's/its
2015-06-05T19:03:03Z caoliver: Well, I remember back when CMUCL took about half an hour to build.
2015-06-05T19:03:22Z caoliver: That was on a P133 with 64MB main mem.
2015-06-05T19:03:30Z nyef: I still budget half an hour to the build on SBCL for some systems. More in some cases.
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2015-06-05T19:04:02Z caoliver:  Failure:            run-program.impure.lisp / RUN-PROGRAM-CAT-3
2015-06-05T19:04:09Z caoliver:  Invalid exit status: run-program.test.sh
2015-06-05T19:04:14Z caoliver:  Invalid exit status: side-effectful-pathnames.test.sh
2015-06-05T19:04:18Z caoliver: Grrrr....
2015-06-05T19:04:20Z nyef: Nice.
2015-06-05T19:04:28Z nyef: Which platform, which SBCL version?
2015-06-05T19:04:34Z caoliver: That should be telling me something about my config.
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2015-06-05T19:04:38Z caoliver: 1.2.12
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2015-06-05T19:05:13Z caoliver: I get a feeling of data vu about that message.  I've seen this, but I can't remember the cause.
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2015-06-05T19:05:33Z nyef: Those are new to me, I'm afraid.
2015-06-05T19:05:35Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: IBM labs overclocked POWER7 cores to 80GHz
2015-06-05T19:05:58Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: IBM has only very rarely had peak performance-per-dollar; just peak performance per-chip.
2015-06-05T19:06:08Z fe[nl]ix: ... at 2°K
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2015-06-05T19:06:29Z H4ns: 2K
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2015-06-05T19:06:51Z jasom: yields from IBMs POWER fabs are historically low compared to Intel
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2015-06-05T19:09:44Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: just cool down the CPU and overclock it
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2015-06-05T19:10:42Z rpg: If a lisp file is missing an IN-PACKAGE form, does it always default to COMMON-LISP-USER, or *PACKAGE*, or is this implementation-dependent? [getting a little lost in the hyperspec]
2015-06-05T19:11:19Z eudoxia: i think that's decided by asdf
2015-06-05T19:11:40Z nyef: It defaults to whatever the value of *PACKAGE* is at the time of COMPILE-FILE or LOAD.
2015-06-05T19:11:41Z jasom: rpg: it defaults to *package*
2015-06-05T19:11:55Z fe[nl]ix: it's implementation-dependent
2015-06-05T19:12:07Z jasom: rpg: but laod and compile-file will bind the value around the processing of the file
2015-06-05T19:12:22Z skrue: so i have a tree (a list of lists) as a global variable, *tree*. I want to write a function that modifies it in-place. Is there an idiom for this?
2015-06-05T19:12:24Z jasom: from hyperspec: "load binds *readtable* and *package* to the values they held before loading the file."
2015-06-05T19:12:28Z rpg: jasom: right, but they do this just to avoid setting it leaking out...
2015-06-05T19:12:46Z rpg: So it's like (let ((*package* *package*)) ... do the loading...)
2015-06-05T19:12:51Z jasom: right
2015-06-05T19:13:29Z rpg: I'm wondering if I can wrap a (let ((*package* <my-pkg>))) ...) around a call to load bad lisp files and get The Right Thing to happen.
2015-06-05T19:13:56Z nyef: If adjusting the value of *PACKAGE* is what will make The Right Thing happen, then yes.
2015-06-05T19:14:27Z Shinmera: rpg: You can certainly do it by messing with ASDF (e.g. defining your own subclass to lisp-file that binds *package* in an :around asdf:perform method.
2015-06-05T19:14:29Z Shinmera: )
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2015-06-05T19:15:04Z Shinmera: Or just add your own around to lisp-file directly, though I don't know if that's a Good Idea™
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2015-06-05T19:19:39Z Baggers: Is there a way to set the swank :style parameter from slime? The only var that looked promising seems to be populated by swank rather than the other way around
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2015-06-05T19:24:01Z nyef: Baggers: Before or after connection?
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2015-06-05T19:24:15Z nyef: Oh, wait, SET it?
2015-06-05T19:24:17Z nyef: Hrm.
2015-06-05T19:24:40Z nyef: No idea.
2015-06-05T19:24:59Z Baggers: before ideally
2015-06-05T19:25:41Z Baggers: so I can start the connection with a specific :style without having to use swank:create-server
2015-06-05T19:26:57Z rpg: Shinmera, eudoxia: these are actually data files and are not loaded by ASDF.
2015-06-05T19:27:13Z eudoxia: oh then probs *package*
2015-06-05T19:27:47Z rpg: Someone has written a lot of problem specs into a boatload of files without specifying the package: code from the bad old days when everything lived in COMMON-LISP-USER....
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2015-06-05T19:30:23Z jasom: there was a debate on asdf-devel about what things ASDF should normalize (and restore) when loading systems
2015-06-05T19:31:41Z jasom: Faré was on one side and Robert on the other
2015-06-05T19:33:56Z jasom: IIRC Faré wanted the majority of the environment to be normalized and restored when loading each system (e.g. *read-default-float-format* and such) and Robert claimed there was code out there that depended on those values being different, and we shouldn't brek those things
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2015-06-05T19:37:15Z Xach: rpg is Robert
2015-06-05T19:37:49Z rpg: jasom: Yes, it turns out that the spec admits doing really heinous things to readtables.
2015-06-05T19:38:14Z rpg: Alas, READTABLES really seem to be a place where the spec got things wrong.  They should have been named things like packages.
2015-06-05T19:39:40Z Xach: named-readtables to the rescue
2015-06-05T19:40:18Z |3b|: Baggers: try setting swank:*communication-style* in .swank.lisp
2015-06-05T19:40:47Z |3b|:  ~/.swank.lisp
2015-06-05T19:42:09Z rpg: Xach: Yes, named-readtables are really the solution.
2015-06-05T19:43:08Z jasom: I'm still perturbed by the close coupling (and lack of customization) between the reader and interning
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2015-06-05T19:43:15Z Baggers: |3b|: Cheers, if I can do it without hardcoding that would be cool, but if not it's no real both to just use swank:create-server
2015-06-05T19:43:30Z jasom: It means we are stuck with the package system the spec provides us.
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2015-06-05T19:44:15Z Shinmera: One could replace the entire reader.
2015-06-05T19:44:22Z jasom: Shinmera: I've done so
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2015-06-05T19:44:41Z jasom: https://github.com/jasom/spm-reader
2015-06-05T19:44:50Z dlowe: doesn't really help if some library depends on the old one, though
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2015-06-05T19:47:28Z jasom: The spm-reader could be made actually useful if you don't care about symbols that start with unicode characters
2015-06-05T19:47:39Z jasom: then the size of the readtable would be much more tractible
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2015-06-05T19:49:26Z jasom: package-local-nicknames will probably win, but that requires implementation support to work, IIRC
2015-06-05T19:51:08Z dlowe: For unicode, I imagine you'd want to have two readtables - one for character classes and another for individual characters.
2015-06-05T19:51:09Z fe[nl]ix: one could make an almost-CL implementation that would be compatible with most most sane CL code
2015-06-05T19:51:27Z dlowe: CL - the sane parts
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2015-06-05T19:53:01Z fe[nl]ix: with a non-interning reader one using find-symbol at runtime wouldn't be the same, but most code would work
2015-06-05T19:57:31Z dlowe: I'd be fine with first-class packages
2015-06-05T19:57:52Z fe[nl]ix: what do you mean ?
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2015-06-05T19:58:55Z dlowe: as an alternative to non-interning (so that identifiers would be strings?), you could pass in packages for the reader to use and they wouldn't have global scope or infinite lifespan
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2015-06-05T20:00:24Z fe[nl]ix: the compiler would do the interning, and there would be a different package set from the one available at runtime
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2015-06-05T20:01:51Z dlowe: part of what makes lisp elegant is the complete separation of reading and compilation. I don't think the benefits would be worth it.
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2015-06-05T20:05:53Z jasom: I'm okay with read-time interning, I just wish it were programmable (like the rest of lisp)
2015-06-05T20:06:01Z jasom: and I agree that anonymous packages would be nice
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2015-06-05T20:06:31Z jasom: anonymous packages, plus customization of interning would let you write nearly any package system you want
2015-06-05T20:06:33Z dlowe: well, you'd want like a named-package-set or something
2015-06-05T20:07:11Z dlowe: the ugly, unelegant bit about the system is that evaluation has to happen for new packages to be defined
2015-06-05T20:07:24Z fe[nl]ix: this requires some thinking
2015-06-05T20:07:52Z dlowe: so you're back to munging the compiler/evaluator with the reader in order to read s-exprs
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2015-06-05T20:08:22Z dlowe: implicit package creation could fix that, I guess
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2015-06-05T20:08:44Z fe[nl]ix: I like that in .NET you have first-class compilation environments that inherit from one another - the whole thing is a persistent tree IIRC
2015-06-05T20:08:46Z dlowe: especially if you passed in a package set
2015-06-05T20:09:01Z fe[nl]ix: and that allows parallel compilation in a single process
2015-06-05T20:09:01Z dlowe: fe[nl]ix: documentation? I don't know anything about .NET
2015-06-05T20:09:36Z fe[nl]ix: I don't remember what they call 'em, but a C# guy once explained it to me and I thought it's really cool
2015-06-05T20:10:05Z dlowe: parallel compilation in lisp is hard because we can modify the compilation process. My own projects just keep macros in a separate directory which is always loaded first.
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2015-06-05T20:10:42Z dlowe: macros, defvars, defpackages, everything to set up the compilation environment in one place
2015-06-05T20:11:00Z dlowe: and then the rest of the source can be compiled at once
2015-06-05T20:11:18Z dlowe: most projects don't do that, though
2015-06-05T20:11:36Z rpg: dlowe: how often do you have a codebase that's big enough to recoup the considerable investment required to tool up that parallel compilation?
2015-06-05T20:11:40Z fe[nl]ix: if you have dependency information between files, and compile-file didn't modify the global environment, you could do a partially parallel compilation
2015-06-05T20:11:53Z rpg: For anything non-ITA-scale, it seems like a uniprocess compilation is just fine.
2015-06-05T20:12:17Z dlowe: rpg: not often. it mostly just makes dependency checking a lot cleaner
2015-06-05T20:12:33Z dlowe: e.g. if I modify a macro, it just recompiles the whole source tree
2015-06-05T20:12:50Z dlowe: which may be wasteful, but at least I don't end up with a stale function
2015-06-05T20:12:52Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: right, but a lot of the power of the macro system comes from that global environment modification.
2015-06-05T20:13:21Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: not really. even at my small previous startup, full compilation took minutes every time I modified one of the base files
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2015-06-05T20:14:50Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: imagine compile-file returning a different environment instead of modifying the global one implicitly
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2015-06-05T20:15:13Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: I get it, but the cost in human hours to get all that parallel compilation stuff to work seems shockingly high.
2015-06-05T20:15:20Z fe[nl]ix: then, in the case of a parallel ASDF, you could save that to a fasl, or "load" it into the global environment
2015-06-05T20:15:35Z dlowe: fe[nl]ix: why have global environments in that case? :D
2015-06-05T20:15:39Z Shinmera: Isn't beach doing something with different environments for the varying phases?
2015-06-05T20:15:41Z dlowe: your global environment could be very small
2015-06-05T20:16:10Z fe[nl]ix: dlowe: I still want a REPL accessing the results of the latest compilation
2015-06-05T20:16:17Z drmeister: Yay! I can compile with Clasp+Cleavir again.
2015-06-05T20:16:36Z dlowe: fe[nl]ix: the result would be a reference to data in the sub-environment
2015-06-05T20:16:55Z rpg: I find I do the vast majority of my compilation piecemeal, fixing one defun (or similar small unit) at a time, so I don't get as much benefit from big make-style restructurings.
2015-06-05T20:17:03Z Shinmera: drmeister: Can you feel the speed yet?
2015-06-05T20:17:08Z rpg: But I use ACL, which is much more friendly to incremental development.
2015-06-05T20:17:32Z dlowe: it becomes a lot more important with larger teams
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2015-06-05T20:17:57Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: I don't think ACL recompiles automatically all code that used the macro you just redefined
2015-06-05T20:18:22Z dlowe: honestly, sbcl keeps so much xref information, it probably *could*
2015-06-05T20:19:07Z fe[nl]ix: but then it would need to integrate with ASDF to find the order in which it should recompile the files
2015-06-05T20:19:14Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: I guess I don't add new macros that much any more. I've been on multiple teams now with developers who misused them and made the codebase write-only, so now I avoid them more and more.
2015-06-05T20:19:30Z rpg: or they get defined once and stay forever (and are way up the build tree).
2015-06-05T20:20:00Z fe[nl]ix: or even with a function, maybe it's used at compile-time in another file to define a constant
2015-06-05T20:20:26Z fe[nl]ix: and then you need to dirty part of the deptree in your project and recompile those files
2015-06-05T20:20:32Z pjb: drmeister: specialness is something that should probably be stored in environments, since you can declare a symbol to be special only in some lexical scope.
2015-06-05T20:21:10Z pjb: (defun f () (declare (special x)) x)  (let ((x 42)) (declare (special x)) (f)) --> 42  (let ((x 33)) (f)) --> unbound variable x.
2015-06-05T20:21:18Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: so I was basically recompiling the whole project from scratch several times per day just to be sure
2015-06-05T20:21:31Z drmeister: pjb: Yes. But the specialness test is only needed for the top level environment.  Cleavir takes care of local specialness.
2015-06-05T20:22:41Z drmeister: What I mean is I only needed to test for specialness in the top-level environment to provide information to Cleavir regarding the top-level environment.  Cleavir keeps track of specialness within it's own lexical environments.
2015-06-05T20:22:52Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: I guess I just don't find myself rooting around in the top of the structure like that. And code that's structured like that would specifically foil parallel compilation.
2015-06-05T20:23:24Z rpg: I.e., all the arguments you've made for needing to recompile everything would tend to linearize the build....
2015-06-05T20:23:53Z fe[nl]ix: nope because in many cases you have files in a module that don't have interdependencies
2015-06-05T20:24:28Z jackkk: one needs twin chordials for interlooper
2015-06-05T20:25:13Z fe[nl]ix: e.g. iolib, I could go from 60-70 sequence points to less than 15 probably
2015-06-05T20:25:52Z drmeister: pjb: My bootstrapping compiler (which I wrote myself) also has lexical environments (nothing would work if it didn't) and they keep track of lexically special variables.  What I was asking about previously was related to why Common Lisp doesn't define a standard way to determine if a symbol is special in the top level environment - like CL:BOUNDP why isn't
2015-06-05T20:25:52Z drmeister: there a CL:SPECIALP?
2015-06-05T20:27:06Z jasom: drmeister: I expect boundp predates lexical environments
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2015-06-05T20:27:27Z drmeister: When I run into things that seem like omissions I wonder if there is not a deep reason why there is an omission.   I've come a long way working from the idea that the people who developed Common Lisp were smarter than I am.  :-)
2015-06-05T20:27:50Z drmeister: jasom: That would make a lot of sense.  Back then everything was special.
2015-06-05T20:28:03Z pjb: drmeister: that was an overlook. It's not the only one.
2015-06-05T20:28:12Z drmeister: We live in such ordinary times.
2015-06-05T20:28:23Z pjb: drmeister: otherwise, it's perfectly right to implement it as you said.
2015-06-05T20:28:30Z Bike: you could check specialp with cltl2, but that's about it
2015-06-05T20:29:08Z fe[nl]ix: there used to be a cliki page about silly mistakes and omissions in the standard
2015-06-05T20:29:13Z pjb: drmeister: sometimes, the reason is that it was hard to implement in some of the implementation of the people who financed the standardization process…
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2015-06-05T20:29:42Z pjb: fe[nl]ix: yes. Too bad computers and the internet lose memory.
2015-06-05T20:29:58Z jasom: There is, in general, no way to get the declarations in the global environment, right?
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2015-06-05T20:30:58Z pjb: jasom: there's no standard way to get the declarations indeed.
2015-06-05T20:31:11Z jasom: because specialp would be a special case of that
2015-06-05T20:31:13Z pjb: jasom: there's no standard way to query the environment.
2015-06-05T20:31:22Z pjb: specialp as I mentionned above depends on the environment.
2015-06-05T20:31:51Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: iolib is a good example!
2015-06-05T20:32:08Z Bike: cltl2 let you get declarations, so there you go
2015-06-05T20:32:29Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: image a system where there's a base class in a file
2015-06-05T20:32:53Z fe[nl]ix: and hundreds of derived classes, each in its own file
2015-06-05T20:33:02Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: Probably FFI-ish sorts of things are also a good example....
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2015-06-05T20:33:28Z p_l: rpg: Back then world was probably not yet as into "everything is C" as it is now
2015-06-05T20:33:28Z rpg: But I do sort of feel that your design has failed if you find yourself messing around in the root of a tree like that.
2015-06-05T20:33:35Z fe[nl]ix: or something like alexandria, lots of small but independent files
2015-06-05T20:33:55Z rpg: I.e., I should be able to go months without recompiling alexandria.
2015-06-05T20:34:18Z fe[nl]ix: sometime you do have to operate on the base class
2015-06-05T20:34:21Z dim: in the case of pgloader I have a base class and a set of generic functions to subclass and implement in each source
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2015-06-05T20:34:49Z dim: you could compile all the sources in paralell, once you've compiled (loaded?) the "API"
2015-06-05T20:34:51Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: You work on those base classes so I don't have to! ;-)
2015-06-05T20:35:26Z rpg: Actually, the system I work on that takes the longest to compile is also the most horrible one with the worst internal state during compilation....
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2015-06-05T20:36:04Z rpg: Probably be just as easy to shitcan the whole thing and start over as it would be to get it to compile in parallel!
2015-06-05T20:36:24Z average: I was thinking of learning Common Lisp better
2015-06-05T20:36:29Z average: but just for fun mostly
2015-06-05T20:36:40Z average: I don't imagine ever making money as a professional programmer with it
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2015-06-05T20:36:59Z average: although I use elisp in Org-Mode and Org helps me tremendously while I work
2015-06-05T20:37:02Z jackkk: average why not?
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2015-06-05T20:37:15Z average: jackkk: I dunno, it just seems a bit far-fetched
2015-06-05T20:37:37Z jackkk: the stories i read about lisp
2015-06-05T20:37:50Z jackkk: speak differently
2015-06-05T20:38:22Z dim: well sometimes you're asked to deliver a working solution, and people don't care what tools you use to develop it... CL is a good advantage to have here
2015-06-05T20:38:22Z jackkk: but i am a real programmer
2015-06-05T20:38:23Z p_l: average: one of the best lessons one can learn in programming is that for huge amount of clients, it really doesn't matter what the language you write in is
2015-06-05T20:38:31Z average: jackkk: which stories are those exactly ?
2015-06-05T20:38:42Z average: dim: yeah but not that many clients want that
2015-06-05T20:38:44Z jackkk: yahoo
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2015-06-05T20:38:54Z jackkk: autocad
2015-06-05T20:39:07Z average: dim: usually there's this whole "the team, the team, work with the team, be in the team, the team, the team"
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2015-06-05T20:39:20Z average: dim: and teams usually need a common denominator, which nowadays is Python
2015-06-05T20:39:34Z p_l: average: ah, that depends on the kind of project you do
2015-06-05T20:39:43Z dim: well you do in 1 week alone what the team would have done in 1 month, then you spend 1 week teaching them what you did, and you still have 2 weeks to debate about it
2015-06-05T20:39:52Z jackkk: and some story i read where they had little time and they used clisp and made it
2015-06-05T20:39:52Z jackkk: whomever used lisp had an advantage
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2015-06-05T20:40:14Z p_l: average: it's much easier now than it was a decade ago, when web was stiffled by PHP-only cheapohosts
2015-06-05T20:40:45Z jackkk: paul graham said it was best for prototyping
2015-06-05T20:40:59Z jackkk: i myself see it as ultimate programing tool
2015-06-05T20:41:15Z dim: thing is, with CL, most of my prototypes go into production
2015-06-05T20:41:24Z dim: and refining them is quite easy
2015-06-05T20:41:37Z dim: refactoring, not so much, tho
2015-06-05T20:41:39Z jackkk: NASA used lisp machines
2015-06-05T20:41:47Z jackkk: i mean..lisp was everywhere
2015-06-05T20:41:55Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: or, in a CI environment one typically wants to recompile the whole project every time. with a parallel compilation it would take a lot less
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2015-06-05T20:42:15Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: Yes, that's true.
2015-06-05T20:42:32Z jackkk: average if you ask me its not far fetched
2015-06-05T20:42:53Z dim: see https://travis-ci.org/dimitri/pgloader/builds for durations of compiling pgloader (plus some more, of course, unit tests and preparing the VM, installing SBCL etc)
2015-06-05T20:43:10Z rpg: But again, in the CI environment a lot of time the cycles are cheap and the programmer hours expensive. To get something like POIU to work, you need to have a lot of discipline building the system from the start, because refactoring for parallel build is so costly.
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2015-06-05T20:43:44Z jackkk: paul graham yahoo store was mistery to competitors cause whatever novelty they intriduced yahoo had it next day basically:)
2015-06-05T20:43:49Z rpg: Must run: thanks for the conversation -- it was very informative.
2015-06-05T20:44:17Z dim: rpg: we're still talking 5 to 10 minutes to compile ~10,000 lines
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2015-06-05T20:51:18Z fe[nl]ix: dim: most of the build time is VM setup
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2015-06-05T20:51:44Z dim: a good chunk of it, that's true, I didn't remember "most" of it tho
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2015-06-05T20:53:12Z fe[nl]ix: oh no, the numbers on the left are not seconds
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2015-06-05T20:54:27Z jasom: rpg: alternatively reducing length of modify-test cycle can improve productivity, so in some cases it can be worth it.
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2015-06-05T21:02:35Z dim: jasom: for that we have a REPL and C-M-x ;-)
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2015-06-05T21:42:11Z rpg: What do you all do for parallel builds?  I thought POIU was just a proof-of-concept?
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2015-06-05T21:42:37Z p_l: iirc XCVB went further into it?
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2015-06-05T21:43:03Z p_l: best would be a runtime that allowed multiple lisp images with common GC, though :)
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2015-06-05T21:43:20Z p_l looks jealously at .NET CLR
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2015-06-05T22:24:34Z drmeister: How do you give talks about software without putting up a lot of word slides?
2015-06-05T22:24:49Z drmeister hates word slides.
2015-06-05T22:25:45Z drmeister: When I talk about Chemistry it involves a lot of molecular structures and cartoons and graphs.
2015-06-05T22:25:55Z _death: we have memes
2015-06-05T22:26:36Z p_l: drmeister: use only headlines, whimsical drawings, 60s~70s (or soviet) vintage block diagrams
2015-06-05T22:26:43Z drmeister: That's a good point.  I did see several meme slides at ELS.
2015-06-05T22:27:10Z drmeister: But they are more distracting than anything else.
2015-06-05T22:27:32Z p_l had the "Ain't nobody got time for that" meme in his Master's presentation
2015-06-05T22:28:01Z _death: also, we can have code in slides
2015-06-05T22:28:14Z eudoxia: Xach: could you give swank-protocol a try now?
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2015-06-05T23:01:36Z dennis_: do any of you know where I could find a lisp machine
2015-06-05T23:01:58Z |3b|: various museums, ebay
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2015-06-05T23:02:16Z nyef: Dare we suggest using an emulator instead?
2015-06-05T23:02:26Z dennis_: I tried the one in ruby
2015-06-05T23:02:28Z dnm: nyef: Heh.
2015-06-05T23:02:28Z dennis_: it didn't work out
2015-06-05T23:02:36Z dennis_: do you have any other way?
2015-06-05T23:02:52Z dennis_: nothing on ebay
2015-06-05T23:02:53Z nyef: There's... a lisp machine emulator in ruby now?
2015-06-05T23:03:09Z dennis_: it uses ruby to hack together a virtualbox/vagrant setup
2015-06-05T23:03:10Z dnm: That would be... interesting.
2015-06-05T23:03:13Z dnm: Oh, that.
2015-06-05T23:03:25Z dennis_: any other emulators?
2015-06-05T23:03:26Z dnm: Well, you don't need to use Vagrant per se.
2015-06-05T23:03:32Z dnm: Did you get the emulator itself working?
2015-06-05T23:03:38Z dnm: There are other emulators for other LispMs.
2015-06-05T23:03:45Z dennis_: which ones?
2015-06-05T23:03:46Z dnm: In various states of completeness/workingness.
2015-06-05T23:03:47Z nyef: Is that... something based on snap4?
2015-06-05T23:03:54Z dennis_: links?
2015-06-05T23:03:59Z dnm: nyef: I think so, yes. snap4 or snap5.
2015-06-05T23:04:27Z nyef: dennis_: http://unlambda.com/
2015-06-05T23:04:45Z dennis_: what do I download?
2015-06-05T23:05:13Z dnm: Which machine do you want to emulate?
2015-06-05T23:05:21Z dennis_: idk
2015-06-05T23:05:46Z dennis_: one that works
2015-06-05T23:05:53Z dnm: Maybe hit Wikipedia first for some research reading, otherwise this will be confusing and and frustrating.
2015-06-05T23:06:00Z dennis_: ok
2015-06-05T23:06:02Z dennis_: I have to go
2015-06-05T23:06:04Z dennis_: sorry
2015-06-05T23:06:34Z dnm: I mean, even in a perfect emulator, using a LispM is really different from modern OSs, and with emulator quirks and setup on top of that, you'll probably tap out if you don't know what you're in for.
2015-06-05T23:07:11Z dennis_: ok
2015-06-05T23:07:15Z dennis_: I didn't have to go
2015-06-05T23:07:48Z nyef: Heh. I tried to tap out fifteen minutes before I got an emulator running. Because I realized that by that point I already had learned what I wanted to know from having the emulator. (-:
2015-06-05T23:07:56Z dennis_: which emulator?
2015-06-05T23:08:17Z dnm: Although speaking of LispMs, is anyone else running Genera/OpenGenera and has their favorite hacks to share? I was digging around the other day looking for any collections of such, and found a few pages here or there. Finding Genera or other LispM hackers with their hacks published is pretty rare, it seems.
2015-06-05T23:08:20Z nyef: In my case, nevermore. Though I'd recommend not using that one yourself.
2015-06-05T23:08:24Z dnm: I guess I should email Kalman Reti.
2015-06-05T23:09:00Z White_Flame: Has anybody bothered reimplementing a classic LispM environment on top of a current Lisp?
2015-06-05T23:09:01Z H4ns: dnm: most real lispm hackers are too old to share their stuff on the internet :)
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2015-06-05T23:09:47Z dnm: H4ns: Hah! Well, I don't buy that really. =] They were there before the rest of us. ;]
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2015-06-05T23:10:05Z dennis_: the one I downloaded isnt working
2015-06-05T23:10:09Z dnm: Some of JWZs hacks were in the CMU AI repository years ago last I checked.
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2015-06-05T23:10:24Z dennis_: which thing do I download from unlambda?
2015-06-05T23:10:27Z nyef: dnm: Ooh! Does that include MOST-POSITIVE-BIGNUM ?
2015-06-05T23:11:07Z H4ns: dnm: consider that "sharing a lispm hack" will be much harder than using and copy and paste on a contemporary system
2015-06-05T23:11:36Z dennis_: ?
2015-06-05T23:11:36Z H4ns: dnm: you'll have to put your hack into a file on a server in your network, then share using a web browser on a real computer.
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2015-06-05T23:12:34Z H4ns: by "real computer" i obviously mean a machine modern machine with all the amenities that modern machines have :)
2015-06-05T23:13:13Z dennis_: which thing do I download from unlambda?
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2015-06-05T23:16:05Z dnm: nyef: It's mentioned in the readme, but I don't see it in this tarball...
2015-06-05T23:16:31Z dennis_: I downloaded this file: http://unlambda.com/download/genera/linux/genera
2015-06-05T23:16:34Z dennis_: what do I do now?
2015-06-05T23:17:14Z dnm: H4ns: Yeah, I suppose. But for people still using those systems, they likely already have that setup. And for people using a VLM, they've got NFS mounted filesystems, and/or FTP... ;]
2015-06-05T23:17:22Z dnm: But yes, I understand the general point you're making.
2015-06-05T23:17:43Z caoliver: nyef: my install script does the build as a non-priv, but was inheriting a TMPDIR owned by root, so permission denied.
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2015-06-05T23:21:08Z theodcyning: Hey #lisp, what is a good tutorial/book for learning lisp for someone with comp sci experience?
2015-06-05T23:21:32Z nyef: minion: Tell theodcyning about that-dead-sexy-book
2015-06-05T23:21:32Z minion: theodcyning: please look at that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
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2015-06-05T23:23:10Z theodcyning: minion: Thanks a lot, that looks very helpful. I tried out Land of Lisp but I wasn't a massive fan.
2015-06-05T23:23:10Z minion: np
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2015-06-06T00:23:21Z average: http://garage-coding.com/z.html
2015-06-06T00:23:52Z pjb: theodcyning: have a look at http://cliki.net/Getting+Started
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2015-06-06T00:40:21Z bison891: night to all
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2015-06-06T00:59:02Z pjb: So, what would be the current xml or xml-rpc access point of paste.lisp.org?  (or to make it simple, how do I send a request?)
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2015-06-06T01:03:44Z average: pjb: maybe just use gist.github.com ?
2015-06-06T01:03:49Z average: pjb: they have an api ..
2015-06-06T01:05:22Z average: pjb: but coming back to your question about paste.lisp.org
2015-06-06T01:05:26Z average: pjb: have you read this ? https://www.common-lisp.net/project/lisppaste/xml-rpc.html
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2015-06-06T01:05:43Z average: it says there's an XML-RPC interface on port 8185 of common-lisp.net
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2015-06-06T01:12:11Z dennis_: dang
2015-06-06T01:12:15Z dennis_: I just got the emulator to work
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2015-06-06T01:22:53Z dennis_: where is the meta key in cadr?
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2015-06-06T01:27:58Z dennis_: how do I list my programs on the cadr machine?
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2015-06-06T01:46:32Z pjb: average: Yes, I've read it, but it doesn't seem to be activated for paste.lisp.org.  It seems now it's REST, with http://paste.lisp.org/display/1/xml
2015-06-06T01:46:39Z pjb: Which is good enough for me.
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2015-06-06T01:47:35Z pjb: dennis_: I have no idea, but perhaps you have a function like in CL (directory "*.LISP") (directory "**;*.LISP") ?
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2015-06-06T02:42:04Z dennis_: do any of you fine gentlemen have a copy of the opengenera2 tar archive?
2015-06-06T02:43:33Z pjb: https://www.google.fr/search?q=%22opengenera2.tar.bz2%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=Rl5yVYigH8L7ULbggMgN
2015-06-06T02:44:11Z dennis_: thanks so much
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2015-06-06T02:49:14Z dennis_: im so close
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2015-06-06T03:02:52Z average: dennis_: pm-ed you some notes i found online
2015-06-06T03:03:47Z nyef: Heh. "So close". Heard that one before.
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2015-06-06T03:04:28Z average: so dennis_ , I believe it may be possible for you to get opengenera2 but.. what will you do with it ?
2015-06-06T03:04:38Z average: I mean, it's so old, and apparently doesn't run very well, even in a VM ..
2015-06-06T03:04:46Z average: like.. what would you do with it in 2015 ?
2015-06-06T03:05:23Z nyef: For that matter, I'm "so close" on another project, but it turns out that what I'm "so close" to is "another series of projects before I'll actually get the payoff I've been looking for". /-:
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2015-06-06T03:09:51Z pjb: average: there are unequaled software running on genera.
2015-06-06T03:10:11Z average: pjb: haha, like what ?
2015-06-06T03:10:20Z pjb: We have the CL implementations, but we'd still need to re-develop a lot of those software.
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2015-06-06T03:11:27Z average: honestly I don't even know how they managed to make Lisp machines
2015-06-06T03:11:32Z average: someone said "yes" at some point
2015-06-06T03:11:35Z average: and then they made them
2015-06-06T03:11:48Z average: but I'm not sure how they've convinced that someone to say "yes"
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2015-06-06T03:12:25Z pjb: hyyp://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~weel/lispm/genera-concepts.pdf
2015-06-06T03:12:46Z pjb: average: ok. You've proven your ignorance.  Go read some more.
2015-06-06T03:13:43Z average: i can't actually know everything about everything sir
2015-06-06T03:13:54Z average: so.. i'm sorry that I don't know about these lisp machines or genera..
2015-06-06T03:13:57Z pjb: No, but instead of talking, you could browse the web and be reading.
2015-06-06T03:14:38Z average: I have sir, I've done that quite a lot today up to this point.
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2015-06-06T05:14:24Z drmeister: Is it wrong to use paths like #P"sys:..;tests;lisp;add.lsp" ?  Specifically, the "sys:.." part.
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2015-06-06T05:15:12Z pjb: Not as long as you define the SYS logical host.
2015-06-06T05:17:24Z drmeister: Yes, it's defined.  I'm worried that the "..;tests;lisp" is being interpreted as (list :absolute ".." "tests" "lisp").  There is a function in the pathname code that I rewrote based on ECL code that flags (list :absolute "..") as an error.
2015-06-06T05:17:57Z drmeister: That's my current hypothesis.
2015-06-06T05:18:01Z pjb: Oh, you mean there's a ".." in the path.
2015-06-06T05:18:08Z drmeister: yes.
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2015-06-06T05:18:59Z drmeister: the host "sys:" translates as "/Users/meister/src/lisp/"
2015-06-06T05:19:33Z pjb: The presence of ".." in that string makes it an implementation dependant physical pathname.
2015-06-06T05:19:35Z drmeister: I was trying to access the /Users/meister/src/tests/lisp directory.  So I used "sys:..;tests;lisp;foo.lsp"
2015-06-06T05:19:43Z pjb: See 19.3.1 for the syntax of logical pathnames.
2015-06-06T05:21:21Z pjb: what you can do, is to translate a VALID logical pathname, and then merge the result with a physical pathname containing :up or :back.
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2015-06-06T05:23:17Z pjb: cf 19.2.2.4.3 for up and back.
2015-06-06T05:25:03Z drmeister: Thanks
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2015-06-06T05:26:45Z pjb: cf 19.1.3 for parsing namestring; you'll see that as an implementer you have a lot of freedom.
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2015-06-06T06:44:43Z Shinmera: Good morning, #lisp.
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2015-06-06T06:46:38Z average: hey Shinmera
2015-06-06T06:46:42Z average: Shinmera: what is up ?
2015-06-06T06:46:46Z average: what is up Shinmera , please tell us
2015-06-06T06:46:58Z average: let us know, how your parenthesis are going
2015-06-06T06:47:04Z average: your ((( ))))
2015-06-06T06:47:11Z average: (()()()))()()))
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2015-06-06T06:47:21Z average: Shinmera: don't radio silence
2015-06-06T06:47:25Z average: tell us more, tell us about your lisp
2015-06-06T06:47:28Z average: tell us
2015-06-06T06:47:32Z average: c'mon don't be shy
2015-06-06T06:47:40Z average: we're here to discuss these parenthesis
2015-06-06T06:48:47Z Quadrescence: lte me anser questiona about LISP
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2015-06-06T06:51:00Z Zhivago: What is LISP's favourite colour?
2015-06-06T06:51:43Z average: Zhivago: blue
2015-06-06T06:52:03Z average: Quadrescence: yes please answer the questions about lisp
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2015-06-06T06:52:08Z average: Quadrescence: answer all the questions
2015-06-06T06:52:19Z Quadrescence: ok shoot
2015-06-06T06:52:29Z average: http://i.imgur.com/SdKBuJJ.jpg
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2015-06-06T06:52:36Z Quadrescence: Zhivago, it is #<BLUE>
2015-06-06T06:52:40Z average: (shoot)
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2015-06-06T06:53:09Z average: Shinmera: why are you quiet sir ? don't you see how social we are here on IRC ?
2015-06-06T06:53:15Z average: we talk with eachother like it's real life
2015-06-06T06:53:24Z average: we pretend to know eachother
2015-06-06T06:53:41Z average: even if we're from different contintes and living completely different lives
2015-06-06T06:53:48Z average: we still pretend we have things in common
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2015-06-06T06:54:32Z average: for example, a synthetic language composed of conventions, and we use this language to describe mechanisms to machines
2015-06-06T06:54:52Z average: then we pretend our code is intended primarily for humans and not machines, and we read/write blog posts about it
2015-06-06T06:55:06Z Zhivago: Unfortunately some of us don't learn how to shut up.
2015-06-06T06:55:14Z average: and then people start believing it and write twitter posts about it as if it were true, except it's not
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2015-06-06T06:55:40Z Zhivago: Javascript is the best lisp: Discuss.
2015-06-06T06:56:16Z average: javascript is a lot like cobol, except it's javascript and not cobol
2015-06-06T06:56:36Z average: lisp is a lot like java, except it has nothing to do with java and everything is different
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2015-06-06T07:01:08Z average: Zhivago: let us talk
2015-06-06T07:01:30Z average: let's pretend we are augmenting our knowledge with new things from these IRC conversations
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2015-06-06T07:10:07Z Walex: average: "we pretend our code is intended primarily for humans and not machines" is exactly what programming is all about.
2015-06-06T07:10:35Z Walex: average: it is not a pretence, it is the very core of programming.
2015-06-06T07:11:08Z Walex: average: unfortunately a lot of people who don't understand programming think that "language to describe mechanisms to machines".
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2015-06-06T07:12:19Z Walex: average: programming languages exist to describe mechanisms, regardless of the reader, but the reader that matters is always the human reader. Whether it is the original programmer or a later one. Target machines are just one of the possible types of readers.
2015-06-06T07:14:40Z average: Walex: but how is it that if we care so much about human readers, instead of employing the practice of literate programming, we make huge compromises and always hurry up at the barking of managers to put together bullshit code ?
2015-06-06T07:14:51Z average: Walex: I am afraid I will have to 100% disagree with you
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2015-06-06T07:15:48Z average: Walex: literate programming would be a way that really puts the human on the pedestal
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2015-06-06T07:16:14Z average: Walex: that would really emphasize programs being written primarily for humans and not for machines
2015-06-06T07:16:19Z average: Walex: nobody does it :)
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2015-06-06T07:17:28Z ggole: Plenty of programming is done with the mechanism primarily in mind.
2015-06-06T07:17:30Z average: then some men or women on Twitter are all like "Code is first meant to be read/understood by humans but also executed by machines"
2015-06-06T07:18:41Z average: that's at least disingenous
2015-06-06T07:18:49Z Zhivago: Programming languages do not describe mechanisms at all, generally.
2015-06-06T07:18:57Z average: Zhivago: oh really ?
2015-06-06T07:19:03Z average: Zhivago knows it all today
2015-06-06T07:19:07Z average: mr. Zhivago , tell us more
2015-06-06T07:19:10Z Walex: average: but literate programming has nothing to do with "first meant to be read/understood by humans"
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2015-06-06T07:19:15Z average: so we can learn from your vast wisdom
2015-06-06T07:19:49Z average: Walex: hm? then maybe literate programming is made for machines
2015-06-06T07:19:56Z Zhivago: Generally they are used to describe problems sufficiently that a solution can be derived from the description.
2015-06-06T07:20:13Z Zhivago: Machines are irrelevant.
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2015-06-06T07:20:44Z average: machines are quite relevant
2015-06-06T07:20:51Z Shinmera: I think I'll be back once this channel returns to being #lisp
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2015-06-06T07:21:30Z Walex: average: "make huge compromises and always hurry up at the barking of managers to put together bullshit code" happens because correctness (for machines) and maintainability (for humans) are not valued much in the marketplace.
2015-06-06T07:22:05Z Walex: average: and literate programming does not make programs more readable by humans, that was an illusion.
2015-06-06T07:22:16Z average: is it an illusion ?
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2015-06-06T07:22:59Z Zhivago: Let me know if you'd like these two quieted.
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2015-06-06T07:23:53Z average: mr Zhivago , can you not see that we are discussing very important matters here ? we are discussing the future of programming
2015-06-06T07:24:03Z average: you must let us proceed with our dissemination
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2015-06-06T07:24:09Z Walex: average: we are actually discussing Lisp here...
2015-06-06T07:24:09Z average: you shall not interrupt
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2015-06-06T07:25:35Z Walex: average: Lisp I was about to say does not look like very much like literate programming, but it can be a very good means of communicating mechanism descriptions among humans because it can make the structure/semantics of the description pretty clear.
2015-06-06T07:26:16Z average: honestly, judging by the pickiness these cause: tabs vs. spaces, indentation, certain comment style, coding standards, brace style ...
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2015-06-06T07:26:53Z average: there is so much bs in that, it would all be much better if all that was prohibited from the very beginning so there would be no bikeshedding or opportunity for debate around it
2015-06-06T07:26:59Z Walex: average: there is also quite a bit of "obfuscated Lisp" out there, but regardless of the syntax, the structural clarity of Lisp (even with a peculiar syntax) makes it good to describe mechanisms (see SICP for the usual reference).
2015-06-06T07:27:56Z Walex: average: originally Lisp 1.5 was meant to be the "p-code" for LISP 2, an ALOGOL-syntax language, which never really happened.
2015-06-06T07:28:53Z Walex: average: in part because LISP 1.5 turned out to be very readable by people, even if it was originally targeted at machines, and has a non-obvious syntax.
2015-06-06T07:29:17Z average: oh no, it was readable by people ?
2015-06-06T07:29:24Z average: omg, what were they thinking ?!
2015-06-06T07:29:53Z average: should humans be allowed to understand code if machines are going to execute it anyway ?
2015-06-06T07:30:34Z Walex: average: there is an example of LISP 2 here: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4477
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2015-06-06T07:30:38Z average: the "read by humans, executed by machines" has so much obviousness in it..
2015-06-06T07:30:50Z average: I find it to be such a stupid and retarded theme
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2015-06-06T07:31:06Z average: I can't even describe the level of retardedness ..
2015-06-06T07:32:33Z average: I think that statement is just double-speak for "someone's code sucks" or "your code is unreadable"
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2015-06-06T07:32:36Z average: but anyway
2015-06-06T07:33:13Z average: FWIW, humans can understand what other humans said, there are archaeologists right now digging s*it up from some ruins to read what some idiots wrote thousands of years ago
2015-06-06T07:33:47Z average: that's amazing, at what lengths those archaeologists go, and programmers can't even understand what they wrote
2015-06-06T07:33:55Z average: how bizarre
2015-06-06T07:34:57Z average: or they complain: "ewww, your code is nasty, code is primarily meant for humans to read and secondly for machines to execute"
2015-06-06T07:35:01Z average: what a stupid statement
2015-06-06T07:35:44Z average: twitter is filled with these false wisdoms
2015-06-06T07:36:41Z average: "I shall tell you what programming is, in many lessons, 140 characters each"
2015-06-06T07:37:54Z Quadrescence: average, what question do u have 4 me
2015-06-06T07:38:27Z Walex: more LISP 2 example code: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/lisp2/SP-2450-SUMSQUARE_LCS.pdf
2015-06-06T07:38:52Z Quadrescence: this code is reallt bad
2015-06-06T07:38:58Z Quadrescence: literallty worst cde
2015-06-06T07:40:09Z Walex: "humans can understand what other humans said" that is dimissive of a few thousand years of experience that good and bad authors are very different categories.
2015-06-06T07:41:37Z H4ns: /-ignore -average
2015-06-06T07:41:40Z H4ns: oops
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2015-06-06T07:50:52Z pjb: average: you can also type M-x doctor RET in emacs.
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2015-06-06T07:54:39Z pjb: average: don't use twitter.  Very nice and good protocols have been designed for or ported to the Internet, like usenet (nntp), mail (smtp) and chat (irc).  Use them.  Ignore the others.
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2015-06-06T08:00:01Z Quadrescence: pjb, ask me ur hardest lisp question
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2015-06-06T08:01:41Z pjb: quiz: http://xach.livejournal.com/312567.html
2015-06-06T08:02:30Z Quadrescence: pjb, ur supposed to as k a q u e s t i o n
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2015-06-06T10:18:28Z dnm: Hrm.
2015-06-06T10:19:00Z dnm might be drunk
2015-06-06T10:19:13Z dnm might still have work to do, regardless
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2015-06-06T10:21:49Z decent: sounds like fun
2015-06-06T10:22:03Z dnm: Arguable, at best.
2015-06-06T10:22:33Z dnm: I do have to string some reasonable sentences together.
2015-06-06T10:23:03Z dnm: Which is not necessarily tough in speech, but is a bit harder in writing.
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2015-06-06T10:23:29Z dnm: Also exceptionally sleepy.
2015-06-06T10:23:41Z dnm: As expected.
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2015-06-06T10:28:45Z decent: so lots of fun.. could try not being drunk when you got work to do? :)
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2015-06-06T11:05:30Z k-stz: wouldn't it be nice for the quicklisp systems to provide the git files, so we can work on them and see past commits?
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2015-06-06T11:09:23Z Shinmera: Not everything uses GIT.
2015-06-06T11:09:53Z Shinmera: But yes, having a way to change a system into a "rolling" one is something Xach is intending on making possible in the future.
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2015-06-06T11:11:37Z k-stz: Shinmera: the system I just check out definitely use git, the question is why was the .git/ folder deliberately not included
2015-06-06T11:12:32Z Shinmera: Having the complete history for everything is going to accumulate a lot of space.
2015-06-06T11:13:03Z Shinmera: Not to mention that Quicklisp itself provides versioning by the dist releases.
2015-06-06T11:13:12Z k-stz: and distracts from the problem quicklisp tries to solve, well ok
2015-06-06T11:13:46Z Shinmera: I agree that having a way to get a hackable source system easily would be a big win
2015-06-06T11:14:47Z k-stz: how is the dist released versioning realized, is it (ql:available-dist-versions name)?
2015-06-06T11:15:17Z Shinmera: I'm afraid I don't quite understand what you're asking?
2015-06-06T11:15:49Z k-stz: I don't understand what you mean by "Quicklisp itself provides versioning by the dist releases"
2015-06-06T11:16:32Z Shinmera: Well each time a dist is released that particular snapshot gets a version number in the form of the date of the creation of the snapshot.
2015-06-06T11:16:48Z Shinmera: You can request any particular snapshot you want and thus step through individual versions.
2015-06-06T11:17:27Z k-stz: ah gotcha, thanks
2015-06-06T11:17:40Z Shinmera: This is one of quicklisp's main features.
2015-06-06T11:17:59Z Shinmera: Since it captures a complete snapshot of the entire library ecosystem, you can be sure that at any particular version it at least all compiled fine.
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2015-06-06T11:18:29Z Shinmera: It also avoids version mismatch scenarios since you'll always know what version each library has on each version of a dist.
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2015-06-06T11:19:10Z k-stz: so all libraries needed will definetly compile
2015-06-06T11:19:34Z DeadTrickster: yea esp when xach removes something you are using
2015-06-06T11:19:37Z Shinmera: Yes, Xach tests this regularly and sends out tickets when a new release is coming close (like now)
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2015-06-06T11:26:21Z k-stz: "sends out tickets" as in an email containing "you need to change your library, it doesn't work with the other libraries that I hava a quicklisp snapshot of. Please resolve this issue before I can accept your snapshot"
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2015-06-06T11:31:46Z Shinmera: Usually what we get is a report like http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-03-20/failure-report/plump.html
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2015-06-06T12:17:21Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
2015-06-06T12:18:36Z smokeink: good afternoon
2015-06-06T12:19:03Z decent: afternoon
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2015-06-06T12:23:21Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-06-06T12:57:36Z beach: drmeister: You seem to be using the "hostile" environment.  Any particular implementation should use implementation-specific functions to determine whether a symbol is the name of a special variable.
2015-06-06T13:01:36Z drmeister: Hi beach
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2015-06-06T13:04:21Z drmeister: beach: Yes, I fixed it by using an implementation specific function.
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2015-06-06T13:06:05Z beach: drmeister: I take it you also found the problem with compile-...?
2015-06-06T13:06:55Z drmeister: Yes, I've making progress towards getting cleavir back online.
2015-06-06T13:07:03Z drmeister: "I've been making progress"
2015-06-06T13:07:10Z drmeister: It's early
2015-06-06T13:07:12Z drmeister: here
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2015-06-06T13:08:12Z drmeister: My cleavir interface code isn't completely aware of tagged pointers or immediate values yet.
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2015-06-06T13:08:34Z drmeister: I thought I better get it working soon or I'll forget details.
2015-06-06T13:09:08Z beach: Yeah, good plan.
2015-06-06T13:09:29Z drmeister: For instance, NIL used to be a special value and I had a function that generated that special value. Now it's a regular symbol and the function needs to change to reflect that.
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2015-06-06T13:28:32Z smokeink: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149319 how would i go from here with the debugging ?
2015-06-06T13:29:39Z Zhivago: I'd probably go with gdb ...
2015-06-06T13:32:14Z smokeink: yeah i attached it and im getting sigsegv at 0x00007fffd0adae33 in cv_FaceRecognizer_train2
2015-06-06T13:32:25Z smokeink: but no idea how to continue
2015-06-06T13:32:30Z smokeink: what should i look for
2015-06-06T13:33:04Z smokeink: this is my issue http://paste.lisp.org/display/149148
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2015-06-06T13:42:54Z smokeink: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149321 backtrace
2015-06-06T13:43:48Z attila_lendvai: note that you can annotate the original paste, that's better for everyone
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2015-06-06T13:48:41Z smokeink annotated http://paste.lisp.org/display/149148#1
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2015-06-06T13:51:00Z Zhivago: Perhaps recompiling opencv with debugging support?
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2015-06-06T13:52:28Z smokeink going for it
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2015-06-06T14:02:19Z drmeister: beach: There's no function that I need to write to introduce immediate values is there?  You used to have a function called INTRODUCE-INTERMEDIATE but I see from reading commit history that you moved that functionality into the AST.
2015-06-06T14:03:37Z theos: clhs 11.1.2.1.2
2015-06-06T14:03:37Z specbot: Constraints on the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Programs: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm
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2015-06-06T14:10:16Z theos: clhs 17.2.1
2015-06-06T14:10:17Z specbot: Satisfying a Two-Argument Test: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/17_ba.htm
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2015-06-06T14:20:48Z beach: drmeister: Correct.  Now, immediates must be introduced at the AST level.
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2015-06-06T14:21:47Z beach: theos: You can use /msg specbot clhs ... if you don't need for others to see it.
2015-06-06T14:22:47Z theos: beach thanks. did you get offended?
2015-06-06T14:22:55Z beach: No, not at all.
2015-06-06T14:22:58Z beach: Just saying.
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2015-06-06T14:23:46Z theos: i just think that the owner of the bot might get offended that i am trying to misuse his bot in private so i keep it public :S
2015-06-06T14:23:49Z drmeister: beach: I'm seeing an assert failure when I compile Cleavir with Cleavir
2015-06-06T14:24:02Z drmeister: Hang on
2015-06-06T14:24:41Z drmeister: sicl/Code/Cleavir/Intermediate-representation/instruction.lisp
2015-06-06T14:24:57Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/qb8dUOGd/
2015-06-06T14:25:18Z drmeister: The assert on line 7.  I think the inputs are (NIL)
2015-06-06T14:25:53Z drmeister: I say "think" because my debugging capabilities in Cleavir compiled code are weak.
2015-06-06T14:26:04Z beach: The ASSERT is there because they shouldn't be NIL or anything other than DATUM.
2015-06-06T14:26:13Z drmeister: Right.
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2015-06-06T14:26:28Z beach: So you need to find out who put it there.
2015-06-06T14:26:28Z drmeister: I can give you a backtrace and many of the frames show variables.
2015-06-06T14:26:57Z beach: There should be a MAKE-INSTANCE immediately before this one.
2015-06-06T14:27:05Z drmeister: Yes.
2015-06-06T14:27:20Z beach: And there should be some function calling MAKE-INSTANCE with the wrong values.
2015-06-06T14:27:36Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/JBXIdLoL/
2015-06-06T14:28:19Z drmeister: Frame 22 - notice :INPUTS (NIL)
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2015-06-06T14:28:51Z drmeister: I should put some time into debugging info as well
2015-06-06T14:29:05Z beach: Seems to be MAKE-READ-CELL-INSTRUCTION
2015-06-06T14:29:11Z drmeister: Yes
2015-06-06T14:29:46Z beach: But that's all I can tell from the backtrace.
2015-06-06T14:30:06Z drmeister: That's about all I can tell as well.
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2015-06-06T14:31:11Z beach: There is only one place where that function is called.
2015-06-06T14:31:19Z beach: In segregate-lexicals.lisp
2015-06-06T14:31:41Z drmeister: It's compiling the DEFUN macro.  It's the first macro it compiles - if that helps.
2015-06-06T14:32:01Z beach: It appears that new-dynamic-temporary returns NIL sometimes.
2015-06-06T14:32:09Z drmeister: Ah.
2015-06-06T14:32:10Z beach: I can't see how that could possibly be the case.
2015-06-06T14:32:23Z drmeister: Does that go through my code?
2015-06-06T14:32:36Z beach: What do you mean by that?
2015-06-06T14:32:55Z drmeister: Is it my fault.  I'm totally fine with things being my fault.
2015-06-06T14:33:10Z beach: I don't know.
2015-06-06T14:33:23Z drmeister: Ok.  Investigating...
2015-06-06T14:33:26Z protist: I have an APL interpreter written in Common Lisp...it is not complete...who might be interested in bringing this to fruition?
2015-06-06T14:34:11Z protist: It can parse (as much as a proper APL should ;) ), run many things, etc
2015-06-06T14:34:23Z beach: drmeister: You might be able to trace new-dynamic-location and see what it does.
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2015-06-06T14:34:39Z protist: but there are many operations that require a lot of generality with respect to rank that require a lot of effort
2015-06-06T14:34:52Z drmeister: Yeah - looking at the code I can't see how it could return NIL
2015-06-06T14:35:05Z beach: sorry, new-dynamic-temporary
2015-06-06T14:35:15Z drmeister: Excellent suggestion.  I always enjoy code spelunking.
2015-06-06T14:35:27Z drmeister: Tracing...
2015-06-06T14:35:54Z drmeister: It will be a moment. I should start from the beginning.
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2015-06-06T14:37:06Z beach: You might want to trace NEW-INPUT as well.
2015-06-06T14:37:13Z drmeister: Will do...
2015-06-06T14:37:28Z beach: ... to make sure that it's not the second argument to it that is NIL.
2015-06-06T14:38:21Z drmeister: Ok, I'll do:  (trace cleavir-ir:new-dynamic-temporary cleavir-hir-transformations:new-input)
2015-06-06T14:39:00Z drmeister: Or rather: (trace cleavir-ir:new-dynamic-temporary cleavir-hir-transformations::new-input)
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2015-06-06T14:39:33Z beach: Right.
2015-06-06T14:39:35Z drmeister: It's not the first macro.
2015-06-06T14:39:44Z drmeister: defvar and defparameter compile fine
2015-06-06T14:40:40Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/2ZrUZv7N/
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2015-06-06T14:41:18Z drmeister: Investigating new-input in light of trace...
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2015-06-06T14:42:06Z drmeister: The gethash is returning nil.
2015-06-06T14:42:19Z drmeister: In new-inputs
2015-06-06T14:42:25Z beach: Yes, I can see how that would make it fail.
2015-06-06T14:42:54Z beach: This is an EQUAL hash table I think.
2015-06-06T14:43:01Z beach: Could there be a problem with those in Clasp?
2015-06-06T14:43:10Z beach: I think we have seen something like that before.
2015-06-06T14:44:07Z drmeister: There could be.
2015-06-06T14:44:17Z drmeister: I'm investigating...
2015-06-06T14:44:49Z beach: The thing to try to check is whether the hash table does contain something that is EQUAL to the query but it fails to find it.
2015-06-06T14:44:56Z drmeister: I can see the hash table in the backtrace, then I hit the wrong key and lost it - checking.
2015-06-06T14:45:13Z drmeister: This was working before but the switch to tagged pointers and immediate values was pretty wrenching.
2015-06-06T14:47:08Z drmeister: Here I'm compiling cclasp with cleavir compiled using bclasp.
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2015-06-06T14:50:20Z beach: drmeister: I have guests, so I need to go.  Good luck finding the problem.
2015-06-06T14:50:25Z drmeister: The hash table is an EQUAL hash table, it has a single entry
2015-06-06T14:50:35Z drmeister: Sure, I'll sort out if it's hash tables
2015-06-06T14:50:46Z drmeister: Thank you very much for your help
2015-06-06T14:52:24Z drmeister: beach: For when you get back.  The single entry is:   (#<CLASP-CLEAVIR-HIR:NAMED-ENTER-INSTRUCTION @0x1126a9839> . #<STATIC-LEXICAL-LOCATION DEF:0 @0x116db6a19>) = #<DYNAMIC-LEXICAL-LOCATION G2769:0 @0x114ad3dd9> [remove entry]
2015-06-06T14:52:42Z drmeister: The key that is constructed for the gethash is (cons owner input)
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2015-06-06T14:53:09Z drmeister: CLEAVIR-HIR-TRANSFORMATIONS::OWNER#8 = #<CLASP-CLEAVIR-HIR:NAMED-ENTER-INSTRUCTION @0x1126a9839>
2015-06-06T14:53:29Z drmeister: CLEAVIR-HIR-TRANSFORMATIONS::INPUT#5 = #<STATIC-LEXICAL-LOCATION DEF:0 @0x116db6a19>
2015-06-06T14:53:48Z drmeister: So that should work!.
2015-06-06T14:54:00Z drmeister: There looks to be something wrong with the hash-table.
2015-06-06T14:54:12Z drmeister: Excellent - balls back in my court.
2015-06-06T14:54:36Z drmeister: I really need to get the ansi tests working.
2015-06-06T14:55:35Z drmeister: We return you to your regular #lisp channel
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2015-06-06T15:02:49Z newcup: protist: I find APL intriguing, but sadly, in the near future I have no time to contribute nor study the language even. good luck with the project though!
2015-06-06T15:05:17Z protist: newcup: thank you :)...I'm busy too...would like to see this get more mature faster, only reason I'm willing to share my toy project ;)
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2015-06-06T15:15:15Z elderK: Hey guys
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2015-06-06T15:18:10Z smokeink: hey
2015-06-06T15:19:14Z Jordan_: In SBCL, is it possible to convert *standard-output* to a byte stream?
2015-06-06T15:20:12Z Jordan_: Specifically, I would like to write a Chrome extension that communicates with a cl host program through their native messaging API
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2015-06-06T15:21:03Z Jordan_: Which communicates through stdin and stdout as byte streams
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2015-06-06T15:22:37Z eudoxia: Jordan_: http://quickdocs.org/chrome-native-messaging/api
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2015-06-06T15:22:59Z elderK: guys, if I define a constant within an eval-when (:compile ..), will the constant defined be visible to the code after it's loaded/executed?
2015-06-06T15:23:08Z elderK: Just trying to work about SBCLs treatment of defconstant.
2015-06-06T15:23:19Z Jordan_: eudoxia: Wow, can't believe I missed that. Thanks
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2015-06-06T15:24:11Z eudoxia: Jordan_: i found it by accident just a while ago
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2015-06-06T15:42:31Z beach: drmeister: Congratulations to finding the problem.
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2015-06-06T15:53:24Z drmeister: beach: I haven't found the solution yet.  But that particular hash table has it's only value in the wrong bucket - weird.  This is with the Boehm garbage collector so objects aren't moving around.  I'm still trying to track it down.
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2015-06-06T15:53:31Z drmeister: its
2015-06-06T15:54:37Z elderK: Guys, what's the accepted way of NOT having SBCL redefine constants over and over?
2015-06-06T15:54:50Z elderK: I've seen the macro - define-constant - in their manual.
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2015-06-06T15:59:16Z elderK: Also, guys, if I have defclass blablabla befor ea bunch of defconstants,
2015-06-06T15:59:32Z elderK: hmm.
2015-06-06T15:59:42Z elderK: this: I'm defining a class befor ea set of defconstants.
2015-06-06T15:59:57Z elderK: But the defconstant forms are giving me errors - apparently the new class isn't visible to them.
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2015-06-06T16:01:38Z elderK: Aaaah.
2015-06-06T16:01:41Z elderK: eval-when to the rescue.
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2015-06-06T16:03:41Z H4ns: elderK: are you sure that you want to use a class definition in a constant initialization?
2015-06-06T16:04:11Z elderK: I think I am?
2015-06-06T16:04:30Z elderK: The class in this case hsould never be modified.
2015-06-06T16:04:36Z elderK: And I want instances of hte class to be the constants.
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2015-06-06T16:05:10Z H4ns: elderK: you're defining a constant's value to be what, an instance of the class?  the class instance itself? something else?
2015-06-06T16:05:40Z H4ns: elderK: defconstant only properly works for objects that can be compared using eql, which is not the case for class instances.
2015-06-06T16:05:43Z elderK: An instance of the class.
2015-06-06T16:05:58Z elderK: Nuts :(
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2015-06-06T16:07:10Z H4ns: i don't mean to say that your program cannot work.  it is just that if your're evaluating the same defconstant form twice, say from within slime, your lisp will probably warn you that you're redefining a constant to hold a different value
2015-06-06T16:07:11Z nyef: ... is not the case for MOST class instances. See also MAKE-LOAD-FORM.
2015-06-06T16:07:49Z H4ns: it is safer to not use defconstant except for primitive types that can be compared with eql.  defvar and defparameter are suitable for other objects.
2015-06-06T16:08:04Z failproofshark: hello
2015-06-06T16:10:06Z elderK: Is the *bla* convention used only for naming special variables?
2015-06-06T16:10:08Z elderK: Or just any kind of global?
2015-06-06T16:10:21Z H4ns: elderK: it is used for all special variables.
2015-06-06T16:10:42Z elderK: and +bla+ for constants, correct?
2015-06-06T16:11:01Z H4ns: elderK: right.
2015-06-06T16:11:11Z elderK: No special decorations for general globals?
2015-06-06T16:11:24Z H4ns: what is a "general global"?
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2015-06-06T16:13:03Z JuanDaugherty guess *stuff*
2015-06-06T16:13:08Z JuanDaugherty: *guesses
2015-06-06T16:14:04Z elderK: Just a normal global variable :)
2015-06-06T16:14:18Z H4ns: elderK: how would you define such a variable?
2015-06-06T16:14:22Z elderK: Nothing is special about it other than that it is a global variable.
2015-06-06T16:14:42Z H4ns: you need to learn what "special" means in this context.
2015-06-06T16:14:46Z elderK: Yes, I do.
2015-06-06T16:14:54Z elderK: I'm going to go off an dread about specials.
2015-06-06T16:15:08Z nyef: Heh. "dread about specials". (-:
2015-06-06T16:15:36Z elderK: :P
2015-06-06T16:15:37Z elderK: :)
2015-06-06T16:15:41Z elderK: BBS! :)
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2015-06-06T16:19:32Z drmeister: Oh sh*t - the problem just went away and all I did was insert debugging code.
2015-06-06T16:19:36Z drmeister: Grrrrr
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2015-06-06T16:21:31Z drmeister: All my tests of EQUAL hash-tables worked perfectly.
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2015-06-06T16:25:29Z smokeink: compiled opencv with debugging symbols but there are still no symbols available for that backtrace
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2015-06-06T16:26:39Z nyef: drmeister: Ugh. A heisenbug?
2015-06-06T16:27:34Z drmeister: Perhaps.  I did a little rearranging that I thought wouldn't change the function at all.
2015-06-06T16:28:10Z smokeink checked that it was really compiled with the -g flag: readelf --debug-dump=decodedline libopencv_contrib.so
2015-06-06T16:28:27Z nyef: It's things like that that make me so grateful for source control.
2015-06-06T16:29:00Z nyef: "I didn't think that this would change its behavior!" Okay, now, given that it did, what's going on?
2015-06-06T16:32:17Z drmeister: I think it's time to make clean and make all and then see what happens.
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2015-06-06T16:36:07Z drmeister: The bug is back - the hunt is on.
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2015-06-06T16:43:46Z dhardison: i'm working on a lisp(ish) app and i'm trying to understand the scope of a variable i've defined outside using (def active-piece -1)
2015-06-06T16:44:12Z dhardison: so it looks like i'm seeing the value in a block of code but i want to update the value and that does not happen -- should i use def again or let?
2015-06-06T16:44:55Z nyef: "def" doesn't look like a standard form for defining anything.
2015-06-06T16:45:25Z dhardison: i see.. maybe it's pertaining to the language i'm using then -- thank you
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2015-06-06T16:49:01Z aeth: dhardison: which Lisp are you using? def might be Clojure or Arc. #lisp is for Common Lisp
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2015-06-06T16:55:31Z dhardison: aeth: clojure - i just jumped into that channel a moment ago and found the answer thanks so much
2015-06-06T16:56:04Z pjb: protist: is it named clapl?  It has a nice sound to it :-)
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2015-06-06T17:40:34Z protist: pjb: no name yet, but that has been suggested once before :)
2015-06-06T17:40:47Z protist: pjb: it does sound nice :)
2015-06-06T17:41:10Z protist: pjb: or CL-APL ... still reads nice letter by letter
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2015-06-06T20:17:02Z drmeister: I have a question about CLHS 18.1.2 Modifying Hash Table Keys
2015-06-06T20:17:30Z drmeister: What is normally done if a key of a HASH-TABLE :test #'EQUAL is modified?
2015-06-06T20:17:44Z |3b|: clhs 18.1.2
2015-06-06T20:17:45Z specbot: Modifying Hash Table Keys: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/18_ab.htm
2015-06-06T20:18:12Z drmeister: Right - it says the consequences are unspecified.
2015-06-06T20:18:56Z drmeister: Is the idea the keys are not supposed to be modified after they go into a hash table?
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2015-06-06T20:19:19Z drmeister: Because I think they are being modified in this bug that I've been tracking down all day.
2015-06-06T20:19:34Z |3b| would guess it is just ignored, so unpredictable behavior
2015-06-06T20:20:00Z |3b|: for example i wouldn't be surprised if it would fail to find it until next GC or similar
2015-06-06T20:20:12Z |3b|: or always fail or always succeed
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2015-06-06T20:22:05Z mea-culpa: What is a wise way to have a two-way mapping between symbols 'a through 'z and corresponding order numbers in the alphabet?
2015-06-06T20:24:12Z drmeister: Hmm, maybe I'm calculating the hash incorrectly.  It looks like too much is going on for a hash of (cons standard-object-A . standard-object-B)  It should just use the addresses of the two objects. ...
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2015-06-06T20:26:19Z p_l: clhs equal
2015-06-06T20:26:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_equal.htm
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2015-06-06T20:28:28Z p_l: drmeister: if I understand correctly, standard-objects (except for strings, pathnames, bitvectors) have EQUAL use EQ anyway, which afaik uses object identity (address)
2015-06-06T20:29:19Z p_l: so... sxhash of two addresses?
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2015-06-06T20:33:23Z drmeister: p_l: I think that's my problem.  I made some changes to my hashing code recently to support tagged pointers and immediate values.  EQUAL hashing seems to be behaving more like EQUALP hashing wrt standard-objects.  Checking...
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2015-06-06T20:39:19Z drmeister: Yes, that was the problem.  The different hashing functions were defaulting to the most general hashing function.  That led to behavior that was essentially EQUALP for everything.  Wow, how did anything work?
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2015-06-06T20:40:31Z drmeister: make clean; make all - try again
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2015-06-06T20:43:09Z p_l: :)
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2015-06-06T20:43:47Z k-stz`: I'm looking for a documentation of sbcl's DISASSEMBLE output. Idea: learn cl declarations by seeing their immediate effect in assembly
2015-06-06T20:43:51Z p_l: drmeister: I'm reminded a bit of someone porting Plan9 to lguest hypervisor on linux and somehow managing to reach I think login prompt before failing due to lack of interrupt handling :)
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2015-06-06T20:47:23Z k-stz`: GDB disassemble is quite readable, not so sbcl's
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2015-06-06T20:48:06Z nyef: k-stz`: Is it that it's not readable, or that you don't know how to read it?
2015-06-06T20:49:00Z nyef: k-stz`: Also, at least historically, using DISASSEMBLE tends to omit function prologue sequences, which can be fairly involved at times. You may want to use SB-DISASSEM:DISASSEMBLE-CODE-COMPONENT if you want to see them.
2015-06-06T20:50:10Z Ukari: how to change or cancel send a network package  in lisp?
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2015-06-06T20:56:32Z edgar-rft: Ukari: There is no built-in network stuff in Common Lisp. What network library are you using?
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2015-06-06T20:58:41Z Ukari: edgar-rft:i haven't use any network library in lisp but only one 'ip-interfaces'
2015-06-06T20:59:16Z |3b|: Ukari: which lisp are you using?
2015-06-06T20:59:41Z Ukari: |3b|:slime with sbcl
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2015-06-06T21:00:45Z |3b|: actually, can you even cancel sending a packet in bsd sockets APIs in general?
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2015-06-06T21:01:21Z |3b| isn't sure you can do more than just kill an open tcp connection, and not sure that would even prevent buffered data from sending first
2015-06-06T21:04:10Z Ukari: |3b|:oh...thank you for answer
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2015-06-06T21:05:14Z |3b| isn't saying you definitely can't, just that finding out how to do it at the OS/C API level might be easier, and should apply to lisp using those APIs
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2015-06-06T21:22:28Z k-stz`: nyef: thanks, am tinkering with that. I'm trying to get the same output as with C code (guess that's unreasonable), or atleast get it to use the 32bit registers (declare (fixnum )) (?). But seems to work fine the addresses seem to be just represented as plain numbers with no % $ syntax
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2015-06-06T21:23:06Z nyef: Ah, right. Yes, SBCL prefers intel syntax for its assembler.
2015-06-06T21:23:23Z nyef: Well, disassembler.
2015-06-06T21:23:46Z nyef: And, more generally, the disassembler is designed as a generic component for all architectures, and isn't really meant for feeding the output directly into another tool.
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2015-06-06T21:36:16Z schjetne: Someone told me SBCL disassembly looked like really crufty Microsoft assembly, whatever that means.
2015-06-06T21:37:26Z nyef: schjetne: It means "the actual STANDARD assembly for Intel CPUs".
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2015-06-06T21:42:27Z schjetne: That someone was utterly loopy to say the least
2015-06-06T21:42:40Z schjetne: At least in matters other than computing
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2015-06-06T21:52:28Z Ralt: why isn't the output of disassemble the *actual* output?
2015-06-06T21:52:44Z Ralt: i.e. if compiled on an intel, output the intel assembly, etc.
2015-06-06T21:53:17Z nyef: That's the point: It is, for the most part.
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2015-06-06T21:53:32Z nyef: It's all of the GNU tools that much about with weird assembly syntaxes.
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2015-06-06T21:55:09Z |3b|: there is no "actual" output other than what a particular tool produces
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2015-06-06T21:56:03Z |3b|: it is disssembled by sbcl, so it produces sbcl's output (which happens to be similar to what some other tools would produce, and different from what other tools would produce, given same input octets)
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2015-06-06T21:57:06Z |3b|: should it give different output on windows and linux if the default tools on those platforms have different syntax?
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2015-06-06T22:36:09Z ruut: What editor/ide do you guys use for Lisp development?
2015-06-06T22:36:38Z nyef: emacs
2015-06-06T22:37:49Z pjb: emacs+slime+paredit
2015-06-06T22:38:00Z nyef: Oh yes. Definitely use paredit.
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2015-06-06T22:42:54Z Brozo: emacs
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2015-06-06T22:45:01Z p_l: Emacs+SLIME. Occasional weird moments of ZMacs
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2015-06-06T22:56:15Z cluck: what pjb said (though the fanboy in me would love to run zmacs if genera wasn't closed and proprietary to hell)
2015-06-06T22:56:28Z pjb: muut is gone long ago.
2015-06-06T22:56:43Z pjb: And anyways, what more than http://cliki.net/Getting+Started did he hope to learn here???
2015-06-06T22:56:44Z nf7: what is zmacs?
2015-06-06T22:56:51Z pjb: The emacs of genera.
2015-06-06T22:57:14Z nf7: what is that
2015-06-06T22:57:41Z oleo: genera was a lisp-machine ?
2015-06-06T22:57:52Z nf7: oh
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2015-06-06T22:59:46Z nf7: For what reason do people make different versions of Emacs, do they just not agree with the directiont that GNU Emacs is going in? Don't they all just die eventually?
2015-06-06T23:00:06Z p_l: nf7: emacs is older than GNU emacs
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2015-06-06T23:00:57Z nf7: right
2015-06-06T23:01:10Z p_l: out of major forks, XEmacs started out due to dispute between FSF and Lucid on incorporating patches from Lucid, iirc, and till Emacs ~v21 it definitely held first place in many areas of progress
2015-06-06T23:01:44Z p_l: I believe XEmacs is also the core of old Sun Studio IDE
2015-06-06T23:01:51Z nf7: Ok, what changed that GNU Emacs all of a sudden became the leader?
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2015-06-06T23:02:16Z p_l: nf7: XEmacs languished while GNU Emacs woke up and started releasing
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2015-06-06T23:03:04Z pjb: nf7: what changed is that unix won over!
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2015-06-06T23:03:27Z pjb: nf7: before the 90s there were tens of _different_ operating systems.
2015-06-06T23:03:27Z p_l: nf7: which led to classic snowball effect as more people started coding for GNU Emacs in ways incompatible with XEmacs, further widening the gap :)
2015-06-06T23:03:34Z p_l: and what pjb said
2015-06-06T23:03:47Z p_l: GNU Emacs used to support several of them quite recently, too
2015-06-06T23:04:38Z pjb: But there are also emacsen written in different languages.  GNU emacs has two big inconvenient for a developer: it's written in C, and it's written in emacs lisp.  We'd prefer an emacs written entirely in Common Lisp.  Schemer have an emacs entirely written in scheme (edwin).  Etc.
2015-06-06T23:05:54Z Kooda: And now there is Guile Emacs too
2015-06-06T23:05:56Z p_l: right now you pretty much have a bunch of mostly compatible unices (so long as your application isn't hopelessly linux-centric), systemd, windows, OSX&co, and in niche areas there's z/OS, VMS, OS/400, bunch of semi-POSIX-compatible embedded OSes
2015-06-06T23:07:22Z p_l: I guess Android counts as another OS as well
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2015-06-06T23:09:35Z nf7: Interesting. So why is GNU Emacs not written completely in Lisp? Will it ever be?
2015-06-06T23:11:20Z k-stz`: there is climacs
2015-06-06T23:11:28Z p_l: nf7: historical reasons, though I heard that some of it is legacy of certain politics by RMS. Most of it is written in elisp anyway
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2015-06-06T23:13:02Z fourier: any reasons why Lispworks editor has a closed source? And if I as a owner of the Lispworks would like to publish my modifications, how could I do that?
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2015-06-06T23:17:51Z p_l: fourier: do they include source for their lisp compiler and runtime? AFAIK not, and it probably falls under the same license...
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2015-06-07T00:55:44Z cluck: to be fair GNU emacs won over because it is free/libre software and all code is legally freely distributable
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2015-06-07T00:56:22Z cluck: (put down the pitchforks, i'm armed with historic facts)
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2015-06-07T00:58:09Z cluck: also genera isn't a lisp machine, it's a lisp machine Operating System (which happens to be able to run atop a VM since before virtual machines were cool)
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2015-06-07T00:58:16Z nyef: ... pitchforks are more useful than historic facts if you're trying to inflict grievous bodily harm, though.
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2015-06-07T00:58:52Z wbooze: jep, but many refer to it as lisp-machine somehow.....
2015-06-07T00:59:42Z cluck: nyef: tell that to the queen and ask her how she liked getting her ass handed to her by gandhi and his non violent movement :P
2015-06-07T01:01:12Z nyef: And... non-violence inflicts grievous bodily harm... how?
2015-06-07T01:01:37Z cluck: wbooze: because the VM runs lisp like microcode
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2015-06-07T01:02:15Z nyef: No... the VM runs lisp-like macrocode.
2015-06-07T01:02:22Z wbooze: lol
2015-06-07T01:02:28Z cluck: nyef: butt hurt, lots and lots of butt hurt :)
2015-06-07T01:02:30Z wbooze: there you go....hahahaha
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2015-06-07T01:05:43Z cluck: (not to ruin the joke but there's actually plenty of research published in reputable publishers documenting how emotional pain is perceived by the brain as actual physical pain)
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2015-06-07T01:15:33Z Zhivago: Genera is a hipster OS. :)
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2015-06-07T01:18:44Z cluck: Zhivago: except these hipsters came from the '60s/'70s, had engineering degrees or CS PhDs and were funded by the military
2015-06-07T01:19:00Z cluck: i'd hang out with that kind of hipster
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2015-06-07T01:26:27Z Zhivago: Super-hipsters. Hip before it was hip to be hip.
2015-06-07T01:26:40Z Zhivago: Fortunately they're mostly dead, otherwise it might be disillusioning.
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2015-06-07T01:27:01Z Zhivago: I suspect the unavailability of Genera accounts for its popularity, to be honest.
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2015-06-07T01:45:43Z wbooze: oh man, how do you merge output-records.....
2015-06-07T01:45:58Z wbooze: feep
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2015-06-07T02:06:10Z SolarNRG: know of any good lisp proper noob 101 tutorials?
2015-06-07T02:08:17Z cluck: Zhivago: well.. it's not that it's unavailable (after all the pirate bay never goes down for long) just that it's illegal to use it and build on it
2015-06-07T02:09:10Z cluck: ,books
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2015-06-07T02:10:37Z JuanDaugherty: is disillusioning a bad thing?
2015-06-07T02:10:59Z kristof: no, knowledge is power
2015-06-07T02:11:13Z JuanDaugherty: k, thought so, just checking
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2015-06-07T02:15:59Z theos: cluck "broken heart" is an actual thing
2015-06-07T02:16:51Z Fare: theos, :-)
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2015-06-07T04:23:10Z kami`: Good morning.
2015-06-07T04:23:22Z Brozo: good evening
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2015-06-07T06:22:00Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-06-07T06:36:15Z fourier: morning!
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2015-06-07T06:37:18Z emaczen: Inside a macro I have a symbol that appears as the list argument to 3 mapcar forms
2015-06-07T06:37:37Z emaczen: I wish to "add" to this symbol
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2015-06-07T06:38:06Z emaczen: Since it is inside a macro, it only expands and does not "set" a place
2015-06-07T06:38:31Z emaczen: Is there a technique in which a prior form can expand earlier thus effecting subsequent forms?
2015-06-07T06:38:48Z emaczen: effected subsequent forms BEFORE they expand
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2015-06-07T06:39:57Z Zhivago: A macro contains and translates its content ...
2015-06-07T06:40:11Z Zhivago: If by 'prior' you mean 'containing', then that is straight-forward.
2015-06-07T06:40:38Z Zhivago: Otherwise you could produce a side-effect in the expander, but this may be limited to the compilation environment.
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2015-06-07T06:41:22Z emaczen: Zhivago: The immediate solution to my problem right now would be to add (append my-symbol (new-form)) in the 3 mapcar forms -- hence repeating myself a lot.
2015-06-07T06:42:04Z emaczen: I could eliminate repeating myself by "setting" this symbol before the mapcar forms are expanded
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2015-06-07T06:43:49Z ggole: Avoiding repetition in the implementation of a macro is pretty much the same problem as avoiding repetition in the implementation of a function.
2015-06-07T06:44:31Z ggole: In short, use a let binding, function, or a macro where those can't do the job.
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2015-06-07T06:47:04Z Zhivago: I guess a symbol-macrolet wouldn't do the trick?
2015-06-07T06:47:23Z emaczen: What does a symbol-macrolet do differntly?
2015-06-07T06:47:42Z emaczen: Then a regular let form at the beginning of my macro
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2015-06-07T06:54:47Z uroybd: Hi!
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2015-06-07T09:54:09Z smokeink: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149148#4 it's looks like my opencv problem has something to do with the smart pointer Ptr
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2015-06-07T13:21:29Z p_l: http://ml.cddddr.org/slug/msg07770.html <-- interesting...
2015-06-07T13:24:39Z nyef: Believable. Very believable.
2015-06-07T13:26:16Z someon is now known as someone
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2015-06-07T13:47:36Z p_l: How relocatable are lisp implementations other than ECL?
2015-06-07T13:48:26Z nyef: "Relocatable" in what sense?
2015-06-07T13:48:46Z p_l: memory relocation - no dependency on fixed addresses
2015-06-07T13:48:51Z nyef: Ah.
2015-06-07T13:49:15Z nyef: SBCL on non-x86oids could be made to be fairly relocatable, I suppose.
2015-06-07T13:49:37Z p_l: nyef: I used to use a patch for SBCL that made it relocatable on x86 :)
2015-06-07T13:50:03Z nyef: Oh, was that lichtblau's relocatable-cores thing?
2015-06-07T13:51:31Z nyef: That didn't relocate static-space or read-only-space, did it?
2015-06-07T13:52:15Z p_l: it explicitly relocated core, iirc
2015-06-07T13:52:26Z p_l: (used to run on machine that didn't allow non-relocatable executables to run)
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2015-06-07T13:58:25Z drmeister: Hello.
2015-06-07T13:58:43Z nyef: Hello drmeister.
2015-06-07T13:59:58Z drmeister: nyef - my bug yesterday was and wasn't a Heisenberg it had to do with hashing.
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2015-06-07T14:00:09Z drmeister: Anyway, it's fixed now.
2015-06-07T14:00:26Z p_l: nyef: the reason is that I'd like to use Lisp inside Chrome's NaCL (or better, PNaCL, but that would mean only ECL or maaaybe Clasp)
2015-06-07T14:01:05Z nyef: drmeister: Mmm. I saw that you were asking about mutating keys after they were in a hash table.
2015-06-07T14:01:16Z nyef: p_l: Isn't NaCL an emacs common lisp of some sort?
2015-06-07T14:01:37Z p_l: nyef: no, Chrome's NaCL is essentially a sandbox without syscalls etc.
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2015-06-07T14:02:52Z drmeister: Yeah - it turned out the keys were mutating but the hash table was EQUAL on a CONS of two standard objects.   The bug was my hashing function was traversing into the standard objects to calculate the hash.  Essentially it was doing EQUALP rather than EQUAL.
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2015-06-07T14:03:17Z drmeister: I had rearranged the hashing functions when I added immediate fixnums/characters/single-floats
2015-06-07T14:03:23Z drmeister: and broke them.
2015-06-07T14:04:09Z drmeister: p_l: That sounds exciting.  I'd love to run Clasp in NaCL.
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2015-06-07T14:16:13Z p_l: hmm, the ECL patches for Android and NaCL don't look too big
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2015-06-07T14:44:54Z telewest: [FREE NULLEDWEBSITE SCRIPTS] Website Worth Calculator, SEO Analyzer+PDF Generator, Ajax Star Reviews all at --> http://goo.gl/JuyUPj
2015-06-07T14:44:56Z telewest: [FREE NULLEDWEBSITE SCRIPTS] Website Worth Calculator, SEO Analyzer+PDF Generator, Ajax Star Reviews all at --> http://goo.gl/JuyUPj
2015-06-07T14:45:15Z telewest: [FREE NULLEDWEBSITE SCRIPTS] Website Worth Calculator, SEO Analyzer+PDF Generator, Ajax Star Reviews all at --> http://goo.gl/JuyUPj
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2015-06-07T14:47:59Z Zhivago: They're obviously licking the bottom of the barrel.
2015-06-07T14:49:58Z ChanServ has set mode +o p_l
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2015-06-07T14:52:24Z p_l: and I think we are out of free space on banlist
2015-06-07T14:53:07Z theos: we can always ban by country :P
2015-06-07T14:53:22Z p_l: theos: I'd rather enable forced registration then
2015-06-07T14:54:18Z p_l has set mode -b *!~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch
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2015-06-07T14:55:56Z nyef: For some of these things, it seems like a server-side content filter as a trigger for an automatic ban (from the server) would help a lot.
2015-06-07T14:56:42Z p_l: if I change a bunch of bans into a ban of all of SoCal, we could probably get some free space
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2015-06-07T15:16:11Z theos: p_l we can allow only identified users to talk. that will create a lot of space on the banlist
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2015-06-07T15:47:51Z oleo_: hello
2015-06-07T15:48:03Z oleo_: when i give say random an argument of 255
2015-06-07T15:48:23Z oleo_: like in (random 255) but wanna make sure i get values above say 10 how do i proceed ?
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2015-06-07T15:49:58Z Kooda: Add 10 to the result?
2015-06-07T15:50:14Z nyef: (+ 10 (random (- 255 10))) ?
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2015-06-07T15:51:53Z oleo_: no
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2015-06-07T15:52:07Z oleo_: oh wait
2015-06-07T15:52:24Z oleo_: but what if i got 255 from random and i added 10 to it ?
2015-06-07T15:52:35Z Bike: that's what the -10 is for.
2015-06-07T15:52:42Z oleo_: ah
2015-06-07T15:52:46Z oleo_: ok i see now
2015-06-07T15:52:47Z oleo_: thank you
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2015-06-07T16:10:49Z beach: Good evening everyone!
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2015-06-07T16:11:26Z Fare: good afternoon!
2015-06-07T16:11:52Z p_l: http://ml.cddddr.org/slug/msg07519.html <--- huh o_O
2015-06-07T16:11:58Z p_l: interesting approach to UDP programming
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2015-06-07T16:13:49Z nyef: Hello beach, Fare.
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2015-06-07T16:34:26Z alladia: quicklisp questions on topic here?
2015-06-07T16:35:02Z alladia: I get  this error on dis.lispError: No package exists of name ASDF/FIND-SYSTEM.
2015-06-07T16:35:17Z alladia: dist.lisp when loading setup.lisp on acl
2015-06-07T16:36:18Z nyef: That sounds like a Xach question.
2015-06-07T16:36:30Z beach: Old ASDF version maybe?
2015-06-07T16:36:44Z nyef: Doesn't quicklisp automatically update?
2015-06-07T16:37:04Z nyef: The odd bit is ASDF/FIND-SYSTEM. I'd've thought it'd be ASDF:FIND-SYSTEM.
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2015-06-07T16:37:15Z beach: Hmm.
2015-06-07T16:37:25Z nyef: Except then it's supposedly a package-name...
2015-06-07T16:37:28Z beach: I guess I should stay out of it, since I don't know.
2015-06-07T16:37:54Z nyef: Same here, hence trying to redirect it to Xach, if he's around, since he really should know.
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2015-06-07T16:38:06Z nyef: (Or, failing that, really should be informed about.)
2015-06-07T16:38:42Z beach: No, I have ASDF/FIND-SYSTEM:FIND-SYSTEM here and it is fbound.
2015-06-07T16:39:00Z nyef: Fair enough, then.
2015-06-07T16:39:22Z nyef: I try not to have anything to do with ASDF these days if I can avoid it, so the package structure is a complete unknown to me. (-:
2015-06-07T16:39:46Z beach: What do you have against ASDF?
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2015-06-07T16:41:00Z nyef: A feeling of general ickyness that dates back to, well, before asdf-install was deprecated.
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2015-06-07T16:42:35Z nyef: It's almost certainly vastly improved by now, eight to ten years later, but I haven't taken the time to sit down and re-evaluate it.
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2015-06-07T16:43:41Z beach: You don't feel you need it?
2015-06-07T16:44:43Z nyef: At work I certainly don't. Wrote my own build system to support one-package-per-file style years ago. ASDF's package-inferred-system or whatever it's called is based on that.
2015-06-07T16:46:07Z nyef: And I haven't been doing much recreational lisping recently, and when I have it's either been short fragments in a single file or in the context of an existing build system (such as SBCL's build process).
2015-06-07T16:46:28Z nyef: Currently my recreational lisp time is still being absorbed by Linux kernel hacking.
2015-06-07T16:47:17Z beach: I see.
2015-06-07T16:47:18Z nyef: (Good news: I'm almost at a good stopping place on that. Bad news: I seem to be getting more involved in the rest of the infrastructure around these machines.)
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2015-06-07T16:53:48Z beach: Perhaps you could combine things by putting more Common Lisp into Linux.
2015-06-07T16:54:12Z beach: Don't ask me exactly how.  There would be several possible ways I guess.
2015-06-07T16:55:16Z nyef: Well, the main point here is to have a suitable build platform for SBCL.
2015-06-07T16:55:31Z nyef: At least, that's why I started working with these machines in the first place.
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2015-06-07T16:55:56Z beach: But your interest seems to change.
2015-06-07T16:56:19Z nyef: It varies over time, yes.
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2015-06-07T17:04:55Z Fare: asdf/find-system is part of asdf
2015-06-07T17:05:06Z Fare: asdf uses package-inferred-system style
2015-06-07T17:05:35Z Fare: even though it doesn't actually rely on it, for bootstrap purposes.
2015-06-07T17:10:01Z beach: So do you think my guess is right that alladia has an old version of ASDF?
2015-06-07T17:11:57Z pjb: emaczen: your macro problem is probably a hint that you should rewrite it as a function.
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2015-06-07T17:14:02Z Fare: looks like an asdf downgrade somehow?
2015-06-07T17:14:24Z Fare: or something compiled with asdf 3, but trying to load it with asdf 2?
2015-06-07T17:15:43Z Fare: nyef: do you do lisp in the kernel?
2015-06-07T17:16:04Z Fare: rust looks like a good language to write kernel code in.
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2015-06-07T17:17:12Z nyef: Fare: No, I don't.
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2015-06-07T17:29:46Z pjb: Anybody knows where the source mail files for the mail lists published on ml.cddddr.org could be found?
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2015-06-07T17:30:21Z pjb: (I still prefer to read mails with gnus than with a web browser…)
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2015-06-07T17:33:58Z digiorgi: Anybody uses coleslaw, if so... you know how to enable syntax highlighting?
2015-06-07T17:34:27Z pjb: M-x font-lock-mode RET ?  I don't know.
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2015-06-07T17:43:05Z emaczen: http://paste.lisp.org/+37A1. -- Question about symbol-macrolet and expanding a symbol for remaining use in the macro.
2015-06-07T17:43:27Z emaczen: Let me know if you have any questions
2015-06-07T17:44:22Z pjb: emaczen: your symbol-macrolet defines a symbol macrolet for run-time, not for macroexpansion time, of your test-class macro.
2015-06-07T17:44:48Z emaczen: Yes this is what I discovered
2015-06-07T17:45:19Z emaczen: Is there a similar let-binding form that will expand at compile time?
2015-06-07T17:45:38Z pjb: Don't put symbol-macrolet in the `!
2015-06-07T17:46:20Z pjb: (let ((a 42)) `(list ,a)) vs.  `(let ((a 42)) (list a))
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2015-06-07T17:47:31Z emaczen: pjb: wow... thanks
2015-06-07T17:47:48Z emaczen: I kept it as symbol-macrolet and got a control stack error earlier.
2015-06-07T17:47:58Z emaczen: But that makes sense to me as well
2015-06-07T17:48:04Z pjb: There's no point in using a symbol-macrolet
2015-06-07T17:48:12Z pjb: (let ((fields (append fields '(a b)))) `…)
2015-06-07T17:48:37Z pjb: emaczen: remember: macros are normal functions!
2015-06-07T17:48:42Z oleo: http://www.picpaste.com/pics/graphs.1433696521.png
2015-06-07T17:49:09Z pjb: You could write: (defun generate-test-class (name fields) …) (defmacro test-class (name fields) (generate-test-class name fields))  and debug generate-test-class.
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2015-06-07T18:49:24Z Shinmera: Nifty additions to Verbose and Dissect today: https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TmpNMQ==
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2015-06-07T18:58:11Z Quadrescence: Shinmera, what is this
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2015-06-07T18:59:35Z Shinmera: You'll have to be more specific than that
2015-06-07T19:00:10Z nyef: Shinmera: I believe that neither Quadrescence nor I am familiar with "verbose" or "dissect".
2015-06-07T19:00:37Z nyef: ... s/am/are/.
2015-06-07T19:00:40Z Shinmera: nyef: Dissect is a library that allows inspection of stack frames and restarts. Verbose is a logging library.
2015-06-07T19:01:05Z nyef: Hrm. So dissect is an interface to the host debugging facilities?
2015-06-07T19:01:11Z Shinmera: http://shinmera.github.io/dissect/ and http://shinmera.github.io/verbose/ respectively
2015-06-07T19:01:35Z Shinmera: It translates the available stack information into "portable" class instances.
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2015-06-07T19:01:55Z Shinmera: Which in turn allows it to produce the nice error message you're seeing in the screenshot.
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2015-06-07T19:02:30Z Shinmera: The addition I made today is the with-truncated-stack (and with-capped-stack) macro that limits the stack that's returned by dissect, which is useful because often times a lot of the information down the line is uninteresting.
2015-06-07T19:03:11Z nyef: Hmm.
2015-06-07T19:03:15Z Shinmera: For Verbose I did a bunch of cleanup and extended what you can pass directly to the various logging functions.
2015-06-07T19:04:02Z nyef: How does verbose interact with the normal condition system?
2015-06-07T19:04:12Z Shinmera: What do you mean?
2015-06-07T19:04:33Z kristof: Shinmera: Don't debugging modes allow you to inspect the stackframe already?
2015-06-07T19:05:19Z Shinmera: kristof: What do you mean by "debugging mode"?
2015-06-07T19:05:34Z kristof: I don't know, I just recall being able to click on objects in slime whenever I get exceptions
2015-06-07T19:05:42Z Shinmera: yeah, and now if you don't have slime?
2015-06-07T19:05:43Z nyef: kristof: This is for standalone operation, rather than in the context of slime and sldb, apparently.
2015-06-07T19:05:58Z kristof tilts head
2015-06-07T19:06:07Z kristof: I'll trust whatever Shinmera says.
2015-06-07T19:06:09Z Shinmera: It's mostly useful in the context where you're headless, running a server, or whatnot.
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2015-06-07T19:06:41Z nyef: So... normal situations, rather than active development?
2015-06-07T19:06:48Z Shinmera: Right.
2015-06-07T19:07:46Z kristof: Shinmera: So the libraries for programmatically analyzing the stack and then perhaps putting such information into a log file
2015-06-07T19:07:51Z kristof: *library's
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2015-06-07T19:08:07Z Shinmera: Yes, that's the gist of it.
2015-06-07T19:08:38Z kristof: Is the Lisp stack a lot easier to analyze than, say, a C stack?
2015-06-07T19:08:55Z kristof: ...I mean, a stack's a stack, but the data on a lisp stack will have tags and such.
2015-06-07T19:09:15Z Shinmera: I don't know, I haven't done much C at all.
2015-06-07T19:09:37Z Shinmera: In most implementations you have functions to traverse the stack and inspect each frame.
2015-06-07T19:09:38Z kristof: Shinmera: Oh, then how does the library get a stack frame at all? I don't know much about Lisp internals.
2015-06-07T19:10:29Z Shinmera: On SBCL f.e. you just use sb-di:top-frame and then go down with sb-di:frame-down
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2015-06-07T19:10:36Z kristof: :o
2015-06-07T19:11:09Z nyef: Please note that the implementation of those two functions might be enough to make your eyes bleed.
2015-06-07T19:12:13Z kristof: Shinmera: I gues I don't know how stack analysis is done in general. From my naive perspective, the stack is just a nice contiguous piece of memory the operating system gives you to do scratch work on, whose top the stack pointer register has the address
2015-06-07T19:12:59Z nyef: kristof: The first piece that you're missing is that the stack is broken up into arbitrarily-sized "frames", so there's also a frame pointer involved.
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2015-06-07T19:13:08Z kristof: When a function is called, you branch to the location of the first instruction, and consume the bytes on the stack in reverse order (those are your formal parameters)
2015-06-07T19:13:25Z kristof: nyef: Oh nifty. Is there a frame for each funcall?
2015-06-07T19:13:37Z nyef: Typically, although tail-calls re-use frames.
2015-06-07T19:13:48Z kristof: Oh right right. Thank you guy steel et al
2015-06-07T19:13:52Z kristof: *steele
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2015-06-07T19:15:20Z kristof: nyef: Ok, I think I can guess the rest now. On each funcall, the implementation stores in an activation record the types of things that are in that stack frame, so that when things go wrong, you can move up and down the stack and just use that record data to re-consume all the things that were passed along.
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2015-06-07T19:16:02Z nyef: Not even "when things go wrong". One of the things stored in the frame is the pointer for the previous frame.
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2015-06-07T19:16:30Z nyef: So when a function returns, it reloads that pointer, resets the stack pointer, and done. More or less.
2015-06-07T19:16:36Z nyef: There's a bit of magic for return values and whatnot.
2015-06-07T19:16:52Z kristof: nyef: Return value pointers are usually stored in a register
2015-06-07T19:16:54Z nyef: Another one is typically the address within the calling function to which to return.
2015-06-07T19:16:55Z kristof: I think
2015-06-07T19:17:05Z kristof: RXD
2015-06-07T19:17:12Z kristof: *rdx
2015-06-07T19:17:27Z nyef: kristof: SBCL only holds $n$ values in registers, for call OR return, and the remainder are passed on the stack.
2015-06-07T19:17:39Z nyef: kristof: Have a look for information on the "unknown-values" convention.
2015-06-07T19:18:19Z nyef: Also for default-unknown-values and receive-unknown-values in SYS:SRC;COMPILER;TARGET;CALL.LISP.
2015-06-07T19:18:23Z kristof: nyef: Gotcha. Okay, this has been interesting.
2015-06-07T19:18:39Z kristof: ...Maybe I should take a compiler class.
2015-06-07T19:18:48Z nyef: Eh. I never took a compiler class.
2015-06-07T19:18:58Z kristof: Well, they never covered this in my assembly class.
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2015-06-07T19:19:07Z kristof: ...I had a pretty garbage assembly class.
2015-06-07T19:19:16Z nyef: Sounds like it.
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2015-06-07T19:20:41Z nyef: My favorite implementation of default-unknown-values in SBCL is the ARM version.
2015-06-07T19:21:30Z kristof: nyef: unknown-values is for values for which there is not enough room in the registers?
2015-06-07T19:22:11Z nyef: No, it's used when there is no arrangement between caller and callee for a known number of values.
2015-06-07T19:22:18Z kristof: ok
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2015-06-07T19:22:23Z nyef: So, it's the general case.
2015-06-07T19:22:30Z kristof: variadic functions, keyword parameters, etc.
2015-06-07T19:22:38Z nyef: Right, and full calls.
2015-06-07T19:22:53Z nyef: Oh, wait, no.
2015-06-07T19:22:59Z nyef: Unknown-values is the RETURN convention.
2015-06-07T19:23:46Z nyef: All full calls allocate a new stack frame, and store any argument that can't fit in a register into that frame.
2015-06-07T19:24:16Z kristof: sure, that makes sense
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2015-06-07T19:33:08Z Quadrescence: Genera on implementing the ANSI standard https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/734346/genera-doxex.jpg
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2015-06-07T19:39:32Z p_l: Quadrescence: is that yours LispM?
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2015-06-07T19:44:50Z Quadrescence: yes
2015-06-07T19:45:15Z p_l: nice
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2015-06-07T19:45:36Z p_l: there's some talk of making a trip ~august to peter paine to get one of his 3600 into Poland :)
2015-06-07T19:45:47Z Quadrescence: fantastic
2015-06-07T19:46:23Z p_l: Still need to write a mail to symbolics-dks what is their stance on software...
2015-06-07T19:46:43Z Quadrescence: what about the software?
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2015-06-07T19:46:51Z Quadrescence: you mean him giving you a machine which has software installed
2015-06-07T19:47:25Z p_l: Quadrescence: Mr. Paine got a truckload of tapes full of LispM software
2015-06-07T19:47:39Z Quadrescence: yes, those need to be copied and archived e;)
2015-06-07T19:47:49Z p_l: I'd like to make it more accessible, including making copies on a redundant storage medium
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2015-06-07T19:48:41Z p_l: Generally, I'd love to finally arrange a form of "abandonware" status of sorts for the software where possible, with optional "professional support can be cleared through symbolics-dks"
2015-06-07T19:49:25Z Quadrescence: I am perhaps a little more dangerous than you are. If I were you, I'd get those copied ASAP, then figure out what to do after it is all done. ;)
2015-06-07T19:50:24Z p_l: Quadrescence: In my case it's more that it will be some time before me and few friends descend like locusts on the site ;)
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2015-06-07T19:50:48Z Quadrescence: should i fly out there
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2015-06-07T19:52:12Z p_l: http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/tapes.html <--- it certainly looks impressive
2015-06-07T19:52:29Z p_l: and well, I kinda want to finally find the source of VLM2 and maybe, maybe, make a better emulator than snap4 :)
2015-06-07T19:53:44Z Quadrescence: :))
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2015-06-07T19:56:37Z p_l: there's enough data to write an Ivory simulator, though
2015-06-07T19:57:01Z p_l: oh, he got Zippicalc!
2015-06-07T19:57:28Z p_l has just read the archives of the SLUG mailing list where someone asks for source so he could recompile it from 36xx to Ivory
2015-06-07T20:00:22Z nyef: Hrm... An Ivory simulator, huh? Can we build one into a 68k Mac emulator?
2015-06-07T20:01:35Z nyef: Now, if only we had a similar collection of tapes for the TI systems... (-:
2015-06-07T20:03:21Z p_l: nyef: well, if someone made a m68k mac emulator structured similarly to klh10... :P
2015-06-07T20:04:04Z p_l: though MacIvory would be not that different from VLM2 - in fact, cursory look suggests that VLM2 is more independent than MacIvory o_O
2015-06-07T20:04:06Z nyef: Not going there. Don't have the time, and the last time I tried to write a 68k simulator had some fairly horrific results.
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2015-06-07T20:05:25Z p_l: haha
2015-06-07T20:05:38Z nyef: (Heh. "Don't have the time." And what do I have open in emacs right now? The start of a Linux real-time clock driver for some hardware that I want to run SBCL on.)
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2015-06-07T20:06:26Z cheryllium: Does anyone know how to kill processes create by sb-ext:run-program on windows? The function sb-ext:process-kill does not exist, presumably because I'm using windows and not a unix system.
2015-06-07T20:06:29Z p_l: nyef: in general, MacIvory appears to be essentially a bit like VLM2, except that it has several hw services provided through SunRPC calls over emb-channel to the life support application
2015-06-07T20:06:59Z cheryllium: I tried to call "taskkill" using sb-ext:run-program (dirty solution, i know) but that failed with an error: "Couldn't execute "taskkill": Interrupted function call"
2015-06-07T20:07:05Z p_l: cheryllium: you might need to use sb-alien/CFFI to call apropriate NT function
2015-06-07T20:07:52Z pjb: yes, what p_l said.  Read the MS-Windows developer documentation at microsoft.com it's not too bad.
2015-06-07T20:08:10Z cheryllium: Okay, thank you for pointing me in the right direction, I will research that now
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2015-06-07T20:09:45Z p_l: MSDN docs are quite thorough once you do a deep dive into them
2015-06-07T20:10:06Z p_l strongly suspects the typical issue with many a program on Win32 is "never read the official system docs"
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2015-06-07T20:11:50Z cheryllium: To be fair, I would expect SBCL to have support for killing processes on windows...
2015-06-07T20:12:01Z cheryllium: Maybe I expect too much of the world :P
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2015-06-07T20:12:31Z nyef: SBCL on windows doesn't get nearly enough love.
2015-06-07T20:13:29Z p_l: meanwhile, something I just spent a bit of time to get running again https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9540080/screenshots/yui/2015-06-07_20%3A10_1366x768.png
2015-06-07T20:13:42Z p_l: (because today I somehow broke the previous build
2015-06-07T20:13:43Z p_l: )
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2015-06-07T20:14:00Z p_l: the 409 MW of memory must be cushy :D
2015-06-07T20:14:24Z nyef: p_l: Is that actually running on an Alpha?
2015-06-07T20:14:34Z cheryllium: Do you have any idea what is causing the taskkill error though?
2015-06-07T20:14:40Z p_l: nyef: unfortunately not, I no longer have an Alpha, and the emulators are useless
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2015-06-07T20:14:58Z p_l: cheryllium: I suspect something in the call to spawn it (possibly permission issue?)
2015-06-07T20:15:04Z nyef: Heh. Of course the emulators are useless. Why wouldn't they be?
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2015-06-07T20:15:32Z cheryllium: Hmm, I am running as administrator, so it's probably not permissions. My guess is that somehow the signal sent out by taskkill is being intercepted by SBCL (not sure if that makes much sense though)
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2015-06-07T20:16:49Z p_l: nyef: well, to be specific, there are emulators, but they are a) pricey b) slow (unless paid for) c) take a lot of resources d) I need an OSF/1 install disk which I do not have e) I'd need a VNC for OSF/1 because it's modern X.Org that breaks Genera's Save World
2015-06-07T20:17:55Z cheryllium: Also, could anyone point me to documentation on sb-ext:process? I found a list of functions for it in the sbcl manual but nothing that actually describes the structure itself
2015-06-07T20:18:09Z nyef: Hmm. And blowing the dust off of my old Alpha emulator is similarly a waste of time at this point...
2015-06-07T20:18:28Z nyef: cheryllium: Have you tried looking at the source?
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2015-06-07T20:18:38Z p_l: nyef: well, the principal missing thing is still d) and e)
2015-06-07T20:18:50Z p_l: there are emulators that work well enough
2015-06-07T20:19:00Z p_l ran a VMS cluster using those
2015-06-07T20:19:06Z cheryllium: nyef: I have not, I will if no documentation exists. I do wish lisp developers would recognize the importance of documentation more though...
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2015-06-07T20:20:29Z nyef: p_l: Actually, speaking of Alpha hardware, I have an API CS20, but I don't have the drive mounting kit for it. Do you have any idea where I might be able to find such a thing?
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2015-06-07T20:22:58Z p_l: hmm, hard to say nowadays
2015-06-07T20:23:08Z cheryllium: Welp, downloading sbcl source code now
2015-06-07T20:23:19Z p_l: I'd probably scour the ebay, or maybe even consider going to a hackerspace to make one on 3d printer
2015-06-07T20:23:57Z p_l: nyef: btw, for running VLM on CS20, you'll have to switch to IDE
2015-06-07T20:24:02Z cheryllium: There are a lot of files here, how do I figure out which one will contain the information I am looking for?
2015-06-07T20:24:59Z scymtym: cheryllium: have you seen http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Running-external-programs ? it describes the various PROCESS-* functions.
2015-06-07T20:25:18Z nyef: Not thinking about running VLM on it, thinking about running Linux as a host for SBCL.
2015-06-07T20:25:35Z cheryllium: scymtym: I have. My problem is that process-kill doesn't seem to exist on windows (I get an error saying that when I try to run it) so there does not seem to be a way to kill the process
2015-06-07T20:25:43Z nyef: But, since we're on the subject, any caveats for VLM on a DS10L?
2015-06-07T20:26:13Z p_l: cheryllium: SBCL installed from source supports M-. in SLIME
2015-06-07T20:27:01Z p_l: nyef: afaik none, VLM just expects certain functions to be configured, which are described in quickstart.text
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2015-06-07T20:27:56Z p_l: you need NFSv2, NIS, no shadow passwords or MD5 or anything like that, few kernel parameters updated, OSF/1 4.0 or newer, packet filter enabled... and I think that's it
2015-06-07T20:28:27Z nyef: Okay, thanks.
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2015-06-07T20:30:29Z cheryllium: Sometimes using windows is a genuine struggle. Just discovered that my slime is broken. great T_T
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2015-06-07T20:32:59Z cheryllium: Please excuse my newbie questions, but was I supposed to type sb-ext:process after M-.? Because doing so gives me "No known definition", I must have done something wrong
2015-06-07T20:33:30Z Quadrescence: cheryllium, Did you install SBCL from source, including recompiling it?
2015-06-07T20:33:53Z nyef: You're attached to swank, you unpacked the correct source, you either compiled from that source or updated the SYS: logical pathname host...?
2015-06-07T20:34:26Z nyef: clhs logical-pathname-translations
2015-06-07T20:34:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_logica.htm
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2015-06-07T20:35:24Z cheryllium: I installed using the windows installer... By "from source" do you mean compiling the source code myself?
2015-06-07T20:35:55Z kristof: That's usually what that means.
2015-06-07T20:36:10Z cheryllium: Thanks. Again please forgive my newbie questions
2015-06-07T20:36:47Z nyef: You might find it easier to alter the SYS: logical pathname host than to do a full build, FWIW.
2015-06-07T20:37:00Z cheryllium: Hmm, okay, thank you
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2015-06-07T20:38:18Z Fare: p_l: if I understand correctly, John C. Mallery, of cl-http fame, holds the rights to the Symbolics IP, but hasn't done anything with it in years, and won't reply to email on that topic.
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2015-06-07T20:39:04Z Fare: though I've seen him diss ASDF on the LW mailing-list because of its security model. I suppose he was speaking of quicklisp downloading stuff from the interwebz.
2015-06-07T20:39:21Z Fare: or of his memories of asdf-install years ago.
2015-06-07T20:40:27Z cheryllium: What is the SYS: logical pathname host?
2015-06-07T20:40:39Z Fare: sounds like it.
2015-06-07T20:41:27Z p_l: Fare: hmm... AFAIK the IP is unclear, and the last "clear" owner died without inheritors to it...
2015-06-07T20:41:46Z nyef: cheryllium: (logical-pathname-translations "SYS")
2015-06-07T20:41:54Z p_l: anyway, I suspect that symbolics-dks might *know* a bit more, if only to avoid being in bad position with their DoD customers
2015-06-07T20:42:05Z nyef: (It's an accessor, so read it, figure out what would look better in the value, and then SETF it.)
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2015-06-07T20:42:42Z cheryllium: What is it an accessor for (what is it supposed to point to)?
2015-06-07T20:43:12Z Fare: p_l: dunno what you mean by "unclear". One person has a somewhat clean claim. No one dares challenge it. I'll call that solid enough.
2015-06-07T20:43:14Z nyef: This is the point in our program where you read the hyperspec.
2015-06-07T20:43:32Z Fare: p_l: go track jcma if you can.
2015-06-07T20:43:50Z nyef: (The page in question linked above, or you can use C-c C-d h if you're in SLIME.)
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2015-06-07T20:44:27Z p_l: Fare: hmm
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2015-06-07T20:44:43Z cheryllium: I have read it but it doesn't mention "SYS", is this something particular to slime?
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2015-06-07T20:46:08Z nyef: No, it's particular to SBCL. "SYS" is the name of the logical pathname host.
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2015-06-07T20:46:24Z p_l: cheryllium: SBCL stores paths to source files for each function etc. using logical pathnames with the host "SYS", so that as long as the translation is properly setup the sources can be located anywhere
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2015-06-07T20:51:36Z p_l: hmm, apparently my snap4-based OpenGenera is quite runnable now
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2015-06-07T20:51:53Z p_l: I only hope the NFS path translation issues do not bite me, again
2015-06-07T20:52:03Z cheryllium: YES, I found an explanation of it http://www.sbcl.org/1.0/manual/Lisp-Pathnames.html
2015-06-07T20:52:40Z Fare: p_l: were fixes of X issues ever published?
2015-06-07T20:52:49Z Fare: brad parker also won't reply to my email.
2015-06-07T20:53:09Z p_l: Fare: the fixes are known as "use a conforming X server"
2015-06-07T20:53:28Z cheryllium: I'm still hopelessly confused. It is supposed to point "to the locations of the system's sources", what does system's sources mean exactly?
2015-06-07T20:53:42Z p_l: cheryllium: SBCL sources, unpacked somewhere
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2015-06-07T20:54:17Z cheryllium: Ah, now I see.
2015-06-07T20:54:21Z p_l: Fare: generally, there are two things - you need *classic* Xlib (xlib-xcb is a no-no), and you need a non-broken X server, meaning no X.Org above certain version (I think 6.9/7.0 might have been the last)
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2015-06-07T20:58:17Z p_l: cheryllium: the translations allow SBCL to turn "SYS:SRC;CODE;RUN-PROGRAM.LISP.NEWEST" to "/home/pl/root/sbcl-1.2.11/src/code/run-program.lisp"
2015-06-07T20:58:34Z cheryllium: Yes, I see now, thank you!!
2015-06-07T21:00:14Z p_l: it was quite heavily used on Symbolics Lisp Machines :)
2015-06-07T21:02:45Z Quadrescence: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/illogical-pathnames
2015-06-07T21:03:15Z Quadrescence: For better or for worse, for most applications, I found a solution like the above better than using the native CL facility.
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2015-06-07T21:03:47Z p_l: Quadrescence: a portable extension to lisp I/O that would allow one to plug into logical pathnames + some updates would be very, very nice
2015-06-07T21:04:07Z Quadrescence: Such a solution I presented above is imperfect however. It could be improved if there was an extension to Lisp that allows specifying methods on some generic function TRANSLATE-PATHNAME
2015-06-07T21:04:23Z Quadrescence: yes
2015-06-07T21:04:25Z cheryllium: Hmm, restarted slime, it appears to work now (I tested by asking M-. about mapcar)
2015-06-07T21:04:45Z cheryllium: Unfortunately, it says "no known definition" for both process and sb-ext:process...
2015-06-07T21:05:15Z p_l: Quadrescence: an extension implemented similarly to extensible-sequences could a be nice solution
2015-06-07T21:05:27Z Quadrescence: yes that was my thought exactly
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2015-06-07T21:06:33Z p_l: Quadrescence: especially if it was packaged into base code under very permissive license so that a) open source implementations could incorporate it quickly b) commercial vendors could incorporate it as well with minimal fuss
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2015-06-07T21:08:03Z cheryllium: I'm looking at run-program.lisp and it looks like process-kill is commented out completely, I wonder why that is
2015-06-07T21:08:04Z Quadrescence: p_l: To be honest, I think a 98% improvement would be just that one single generic function: TRANSLATE-PATHNAME, which everything (e.g., OPEN) knows about.
2015-06-07T21:08:13Z Quadrescence: It takes some object and translates it into a physical pathname
2015-06-07T21:10:28Z p_l: Quadrescence: I'd like to also be able to hijack CL:OPEN based on the pathname, tbh
2015-06-07T21:10:49Z Quadrescence: Can you give an example?
2015-06-07T21:11:19Z scymtym: cheryllium: PROCESS-KILL is not defined on win32 (the #-win32 above the definition does that). SLIME fontifies the definition as if it was commented out to reflect that.
2015-06-07T21:11:47Z cheryllium: Ah, I see.
2015-06-07T21:11:53Z p_l: Quadrescence: For example, make it so that (OPEN "EMB:DATA;something.dat") is hijacked to open a (custom) stream to data that is embedded into image
2015-06-07T21:12:04Z cheryllium: I wish to write a function that will allow me to kill processes created by run-program
2015-06-07T21:12:43Z Quadrescence: p_l: And your pathname there would have some type reflecting that?
2015-06-07T21:13:00Z Quadrescence: that = the fact that you're not opening that file directly, but some stream associated with that file
2015-06-07T21:13:46Z p_l: Quadrescence: Yes, the translated "host" would imply "convert the pathname like this but also call this function to open the stream"
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2015-06-07T21:13:59Z p_l: where the function creates apropriate gray stream to fit the custom I/O
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2015-06-07T21:15:08Z Quadrescence: p_l: My thought is that you should have a new pathname class for that type of thing.
2015-06-07T21:15:22Z Quadrescence: I don't think it should determine that from some pattern in the pathname.
2015-06-07T21:15:27Z Fare: p_l: it makes sense to distribute a VM or chroot image of genera + matching libraries and Xvnc.
2015-06-07T21:16:42Z p_l: Fare: that's what I am doing for a few friends
2015-06-07T21:16:42Z p_l: Fare: a complete image of Ubuntu 6.06 running Genera
2015-06-07T21:16:48Z p_l: though I'll have to update it sometime in the future with apropriate printing support and a tutorial
2015-06-07T21:17:10Z p_l: (right now it dumps you at what the sysadmin would see after installing VLM200 package on Tru64)
2015-06-07T21:17:47Z scymtym: cheryllium: to achieve that with SBCL: 1. find out how to do it in win32 C API 2. make the necessary functions, types, etc. usable from SBCL (see src/code/win32.lisp) 3. write an alternate definition of PROCESS-KILL (conditionalized on #+win32)
2015-06-07T21:17:57Z p_l: https://remoteok.io/jobs/7627-remote-senior-software-engineer-secureone <--- huh
2015-06-07T21:18:53Z Quadrescence: p_l, I know a couple people who work there
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2015-06-07T21:23:00Z Fare: p_l: I'm interested. Can you dump images in this setup? I have a setup where everything works but dumping images, so that I have to reconfigure genera every time I start it.
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2015-06-07T21:26:34Z H4ns: Fare: just take a snapshot of the virtual machine :)
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2015-06-07T21:29:13Z Fare: bingo
2015-06-07T21:29:34Z Fare: H4ns wins at recursive bingo
2015-06-07T21:29:39Z H4ns: Fare: i think the inability to dump images is one of the bigger bugs in snap4
2015-06-07T21:30:19Z Fare: I'm told it's fixed on brad parker's svn, but brad parker won't make another binary release somehow.
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2015-06-07T21:31:32Z Fare: it's been 3 years since I last bugged him, maybe I can do it again now.
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2015-06-07T21:41:13Z p_l: Fare: Save World works very well for me
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2015-06-07T21:42:42Z Fare: p_l: I'm interested in your VM setup, then.
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2015-06-07T21:44:40Z p_l: Fare: the basic setup is very simple - it's an Ubuntu 6.06 amd64 (the version is important), with twm, xterm, vnc4server, all of the classic xfonts packages (important, or Genera will crash!), nis, nfs and I think that's it
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2015-06-07T21:49:08Z Fare: p_l: would you care to release a tarball?
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2015-06-07T21:50:05Z p_l: Fare: right now the tarred stuff I have contains a copy of the OpenGenera 2.0 CD, but I might prepare a cleaned-up version later on
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2015-06-07T21:50:54Z Fare: splitting in two tarballs would be good, but even non-cleaned-up is better than nothing
2015-06-07T21:51:43Z Fare: a VM that automatically boots into Genera would be nice, too.
2015-06-07T21:52:09Z Fare: with autodetect of window size, divine.
2015-06-07T21:52:50Z p_l: Fare: the latter is semi-doable, the former would need a bit more tinkering not because of it being hard, but because you need to make it possible to easily switch worlds
2015-06-07T21:53:37Z fortitude: cheryllium: it might be helpful to look at doors (https://github.com/lovesan/doors), which has the FFI definitions for TerminateProcess() among other things (but note that it uses lovesan's own library for marshalling data, so you won't be able to just copy it directly)
2015-06-07T21:53:57Z p_l: my ultimate goal, though, with republishing Genera tapes would be to allow community patches for Genera
2015-06-07T21:53:59Z cheryllium: Thank you, fortitude, I imagine that will be helpful
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2015-06-07T22:02:22Z fortitude: Quadrescence: I know I'm pretty late to this party, but doesn't that hookable pathname-hosts thing sound a lot like URIs? and if so, I suspect you could go a long way with an IO package that just used them for everything (with a translation hook, of course)
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2015-06-07T22:03:03Z python476: hey there
2015-06-07T22:03:09Z python476: anyone in paris tomorrow
2015-06-07T22:03:10Z python476: ?
2015-06-07T22:03:35Z Quadrescence: fortitude, yes
2015-06-07T22:03:52Z python476: there's a Queinnec day at the UPMC/Jussieu campus. See http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/38wwfi/for_lispers_in_paris_on_june_8th_2015_there_will/
2015-06-07T22:04:18Z fortitude: Quadrescence: I guess the issue is with existing code, where a separate package wouldn't do you any good
2015-06-07T22:04:24Z python476: author of Lisp in small pieces (in case someone wonders)
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2015-06-07T22:08:53Z Fare: p_l: you could still Ctrl-F1 in the VM to get a shell, or ssh into it.
2015-06-07T22:09:07Z Fare: p_l: so booting into Genera shouldn't be a hurdle
2015-06-07T22:09:31Z p_l: Fare: IMO the right thing would be to create a simple equivalent of Ivory FEP command processor :P
2015-06-07T22:10:02Z python476: someone's running a lispmachine image right now  ?
2015-06-07T22:10:02Z p_l: the original scripts from https://github.com/ynniv/opengenera included auto start of general
2015-06-07T22:10:05Z p_l: *genera
2015-06-07T22:10:09Z python476: #disturbance in the force
2015-06-07T22:10:21Z p_l: python476: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9540080/screenshots/yui/2015-06-07_20%3A10_1366x768.png
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2015-06-07T22:10:51Z python476: p_l: in a time machine too !
2015-06-07T22:11:03Z python476: (past midnight here, haa greenwhich humor)
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2015-06-07T22:11:15Z python476: p_l: how hard was it to setup ?
2015-06-07T22:11:53Z p_l: python476: took some time to find out that without all of classic xfonts the genera will crash on ~44th X11 request
2015-06-07T22:12:02Z python476: hehe
2015-06-07T22:12:13Z python476: archeology
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2015-06-07T22:30:36Z protist: if I want a method to apply to a few types...how might I go about that
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2015-06-07T22:30:53Z protist: like (method meth ((a (string number))) ...)
2015-06-07T22:31:01Z protist: does that actually work?
2015-06-07T22:31:45Z Bike: no.
2015-06-07T22:31:59Z Bike: methods are specialized on classes, not types. so types like (or string number) aren't valid to specialize on.
2015-06-07T22:32:16Z protist: ah
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2015-06-07T22:33:50Z protist: Bike: thank you
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2015-06-07T23:21:14Z pjb: Thanks!  Being informed of a Queinnec day at the UPMC/Jussieu campus 8 hours before it starts!  There's still a fucking fr.comp.lang.lisp!!!!
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2015-06-07T23:22:19Z pjb: I've not received anything from the UPMC allumni mail list either, so they surely definitely DO NOT want us to go.
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2015-06-07T23:57:06Z Xach: eudoxia: thanks for blogging! i am going to add it to planet lisp!
2015-06-07T23:57:30Z Xach: eudoxia: the rss feed is a little broken, though. it says yourdomain.com
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2015-06-07T23:57:57Z eudoxia: Xach: thank you, i might have to figure out how to provide an RSS for lisp-only posts
2015-06-07T23:57:58Z eudoxia: also haha
2015-06-07T23:58:29Z Xach: eudoxia: if you put category info in your feed, i can limit planet lisp's slurping to certain categories
2015-06-07T23:58:51Z eudoxia: Xach: each <item> has a <category> for each tag, and there's a lisp tag. will that be enough?
2015-06-07T23:59:12Z Xach: yes
2015-06-07T23:59:20Z Xach: but the yourdomain.com is a deal breakre
2015-06-07T23:59:28Z Xach: ok fixed! phew!
2015-06-07T23:59:52Z Xach: (breakre is how they spell it in canada)
2015-06-08T00:01:21Z eudoxia: yep github pages builds instantly
2015-06-08T00:01:31Z pjb: "Un casseur d'accord comercial" in Quebec :-)
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2015-06-08T00:54:04Z Fare: does github offer server cpu time to run travis???
2015-06-08T00:54:31Z Fare: or are they selling it at very attractive price?
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2015-06-08T00:59:05Z p_l: hmm, to anyone who has a LispM on hand, could they check for me what kind of system uses the logical host "S" ?
2015-06-08T01:00:18Z p_l fears it's somehow S-graphics
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2015-06-08T01:05:16Z Fare: I only have the og2 code, and it doesn't seem to have it.
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2015-06-08T01:05:40Z Fare: <spock>logical pathnames are... illogical</spock>
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2015-06-08T01:08:34Z p_l: I'm trying to restore the distribution tape :|
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2015-06-08T01:15:55Z pjb: p_l: probably configured by the user.
2015-06-08T01:16:21Z pjb: Add a translations to some specific directory.
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2015-06-08T01:18:07Z p_l: pjb: that's how I am doing a workaround, but given the nature of "distribution tape" that is supposed to be restored after initial install...
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2015-06-08T01:46:22Z p_l: most annoying is that it seems to not be created in the end at all (the "S" logical host translation)
2015-06-08T01:46:45Z jaykru_: is testing bots written in Lisp allowed here?
2015-06-08T01:48:59Z nyef: If you're testing a bot, I'd suggest putting it in its own test channel.
2015-06-08T01:50:01Z jaykru_: well I have been doing that but I'm looking for somewhere I can do more of a real world test to root out edge cases
2015-06-08T01:50:15Z p_l: make your own test channel, but as long as the bot isn't too chatty or otherwise disruptive, I guess it's ok
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2015-06-08T01:50:46Z ronh-: does it do anything interesting? like evaluate CL expressions
2015-06-08T01:51:17Z jaykru_: it has a very specific use case
2015-06-08T01:51:24Z nyef: There's a fairly longstanding policy against evalbots in this channel.
2015-06-08T01:51:38Z jaykru_: it doesn't eval
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2015-06-08T01:52:33Z jaykru_: here he is
2015-06-08T01:54:12Z jaykru_: RMS9001, tell us about Linux.
2015-06-08T01:54:22Z RMS9001: jaykru_: I would like to interject for a moment. What you're refering to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.
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2015-06-08T01:54:49Z jaykru_: there's his single use case
2015-06-08T01:54:51Z p_l: eh, maybe not an rmsbot
2015-06-08T01:55:09Z jaykru_: ;) he won't be back again @p_l
2015-06-08T01:55:32Z p_l: not because I'm against the humour of it, but because it's a bit overdone by now :D
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2015-06-08T01:56:07Z akkad: so many 404's on common-lisp.net
2015-06-08T01:56:23Z akkad: where can one get https://common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/tree/master/tools/install-asdf.lisp?
2015-06-08T01:59:12Z edgar-rft: akkad: see https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/tree/master/tools/install-asdf.lisp
2015-06-08T01:59:51Z akkad: ty
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2015-06-08T02:11:16Z drmeister: beach: Are you online?
2015-06-08T02:15:45Z drmeister: beach: I've added a hook to defun to generate inlining information.
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2015-06-08T02:35:30Z drmeister: I can inline anything - the question is - how do I decide what to inline?
2015-06-08T02:35:58Z Fare: 1- don't
2015-06-08T02:36:15Z Fare: 2- linear analysis
2015-06-08T02:36:24Z Fare: 3- JIT for what are often used paths
2015-06-08T02:36:59Z drmeister: (1) I'll be where I am, 100x slower than SBCL
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2015-06-08T02:37:04Z drmeister: (2) What is linear analysis?
2015-06-08T02:37:18Z drmeister: (3) How do I decide what are often used paths?
2015-06-08T02:38:25Z drmeister: I know I want to inline oft used functions like CDR, CAR, CONS, +
2015-06-08T02:38:55Z Zhivago: I recommend profiling.
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2015-06-08T02:40:14Z Zhivago: If you make inlining decisions depending on a profile, you'll have the best option.
2015-06-08T02:40:31Z Zhivago: Then your profile generation logic can be decoupled.
2015-06-08T02:41:02Z p_l: drmeister: I suspect certain well-defined functions that won't get redefined (like CAR, CDR, CONS etc.) could be inlined, especially if you can make a decision based on known parameters
2015-06-08T02:41:02Z nyef: How about this? If it can be inlined, do it. And note that the standard has semantics that allow the compiler to know the inline definition but not be allowed to use it.
2015-06-08T02:41:24Z Zhivago: You can also then generate a default profile which carries the usual weights, for independent compilation of unknown code and that might carry CONS, CDR, etc.
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2015-06-08T02:41:46Z Zhivago: But you could also generate a profile by running code and then recompiling it with the profile generated.
2015-06-08T02:41:47Z p_l: drmeister: also... if you manage to record where every inline happens, and a way to "patch it out" if function changes...
2015-06-08T02:42:07Z Zhivago: Hard-coded heuristics are probably the worst approach. :)
2015-06-08T02:42:28Z drmeister: Does SBCL do profiling?
2015-06-08T02:42:48Z Zhivago: I believe it has a profiler available.
2015-06-08T02:42:59Z Zhivago: But I don't think that it uses it for compilation.
2015-06-08T02:43:02Z nyef: SBCL has two profilers, but the compiler doesn't use them to make inlining decisions.
2015-06-08T02:43:29Z Zhivago: But given that you have the option to do so, you should have the compiler make decisions based on profiles.
2015-06-08T02:43:43Z nyef: Seriously, use the combination of declare inline / declare notinline, and overall compiler policy declarations, to control inlining.
2015-06-08T02:44:23Z nyef: Once you have that much working, THEN consider doing something clever in terms of retroactive reoptimization based on profiling data.
2015-06-08T02:44:30Z p_l: nyef: doesn't SBCL also have several low-level functions implemented pretty much as VOPs, which afaik make them nearly-inlined (not completely, but close?)
2015-06-08T02:44:57Z nyef: p_l: Yes. And if you declare them NOTINLINE, the VOPs no longer get used.
2015-06-08T02:45:18Z drmeister: nyef: I'll have to do as you say. I don't have a profiler at this point.
2015-06-08T02:45:24Z drmeister: Not one built into Clasp.
2015-06-08T02:45:28Z nyef: Also prevents the compiler transforms from firing on the functions.
2015-06-08T02:46:31Z p_l imagines for a moment a GC written in VOPs
2015-06-08T02:46:40Z p_l: ... I've been looking a bit too long at mezzano
2015-06-08T02:47:15Z nyef: p_l: I did some initial poking around in the direction of writing a GC for SBCL that way... Several years ago. Nothing really came of it.
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2015-06-08T02:48:13Z p_l: nyef: I sometimes wonder how feasible it would be to make the GC code in mostly-non-consing CL that runs with GC disabled...
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2015-06-08T02:50:15Z nyef: Almost certainly could be done, but not likely to be a huge gain from doing so.
2015-06-08T02:50:31Z nyef: ... unless you're planning on resurrecting sbcl-os?
2015-06-08T02:51:55Z akkad: well that's one way to get readline support :P
2015-06-08T02:53:16Z p_l: akkad: or a CP knock-off
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2015-06-08T03:07:30Z Fare: p_l: have you seen Rust? no GC needed.
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2015-06-08T03:13:25Z p_l: I've seen a mostly GC-less lisp :)
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2015-06-08T03:28:28Z beach: drmeister: Like some people said, inline functions that won't change, that are small, and that the type inferencer can use when inlined.
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2015-06-08T03:29:41Z beach: And good morning everyone!
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2015-06-08T03:30:07Z nalik891: morning!
2015-06-08T03:30:22Z nalik891: Here it is night yet
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2015-06-08T03:33:06Z p_l: ... ok, wat. I might have just found snap5
2015-06-08T03:33:16Z p_l: ... I have a feeling an update to my VM image is coming -_-
2015-06-08T03:33:59Z beach: drmeister: Start with the CAR/CDR family, binary addition, and binary subtraction.
2015-06-08T03:34:38Z beach: drmeister: Also: 1+ and 1-
2015-06-08T03:35:17Z beach: drmeister: CONSP, EQ, NULL.
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2015-06-08T03:45:47Z drmeister: Hello!
2015-06-08T03:46:13Z beach: Hello drmeister.
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2015-06-08T03:47:46Z nalik891 is now known as bison891
2015-06-08T03:47:52Z drmeister: I'm processing the defun declares for the function to get inline/notinline declarations
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2015-06-08T03:48:51Z drmeister: Cleavir is working within Clasp again.  However, there is still a problem with macrolet.
2015-06-08T03:49:15Z drmeister: Was the macrolet implementation with Cleavir my responsibility or Cleavir's?
2015-06-08T03:50:38Z beach: Cleavir does the macrolet.
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2015-06-08T03:51:06Z drmeister: I'm writing a little test case.  The problem surfaced with compiling ASDF.
2015-06-08T03:52:38Z Old_K: Hello everyone, good news on "How to run VLM opengenera on latest linux system without X11 problems": It can be done!
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2015-06-08T03:56:45Z Old_K: In short terms, the X11 hang problems have been debuged in http://tech-sketch.jp/2014/12/linux-lispmachine.html
2015-06-08T03:57:03Z Old_K: and solved in http://tech-sketch.jp/2015/02/linux_lispmachine_2.html
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2015-06-08T03:58:38Z drmeister: beach: Here's an example that fails to compile
2015-06-08T03:58:40Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/2xvfEnSd/
2015-06-08T03:58:51Z akkad: Old_K these were fixed by ams a while ago
2015-06-08T03:59:01Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/R66mZsym/
2015-06-08T04:00:40Z drmeister: What's really, really strange is that in Clasp it gets compiled three times and the third time it fails.
2015-06-08T04:00:49Z drmeister: I have a feeling it's my code that is the problem.
2015-06-08T04:00:53Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/OACWLA3S/
2015-06-08T04:02:20Z beach: I can't see how anything would have worked in the past if there were a problem with how Clevir handles MACROLET.
2015-06-08T04:03:27Z beach: Especially a case as simple as this one.
2015-06-08T04:03:34Z beach: The macro only refers to its parameters.
2015-06-08T04:03:36Z Old_K: akkad: OK, is there a link of ams's solution I can find?
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2015-06-08T04:06:36Z akkad: Old_K: check #lispm
2015-06-08T04:07:52Z beach: drmeister: Why does the compilation of the last LAMBDA form result in the compilation of a LOCALLY form that looks wrong?
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2015-06-08T04:08:57Z akkad: Old_K: he has it passing some conformance tests now
2015-06-08T04:09:04Z drmeister: You mean the:  (LAMBDA () (LOCALLY (DEFDEF DEFGENERIC* DEFGENERIC) (DEFDEF DEFUN* DEFUN)))?  Hmmm...
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2015-06-08T04:09:36Z beach: drmeister: Yes.  The previous ones look plausible, but that one is just wrong it seems.
2015-06-08T04:10:40Z pjb: Well, (declaim (declaration defdef)) (defmacro defdef (a b) 'nil) and  (LAMBDA () (LOCALLY (DEFDEF DEFGENERIC* DEFGENERIC) (DEFDEF DEFUN* DEFUN))) should compile ok.
2015-06-08T04:11:20Z pjb: Oops, you need (LOCALLY (declaim (DEFDEF DEFGENERIC* DEFGENERIC)) (DEFDEF DEFUN* DEFUN))
2015-06-08T04:13:20Z beach: pjb: Isn't that beside the point?
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2015-06-08T04:14:04Z drmeister: I'm not sure what is going on - investigating...
2015-06-08T04:14:29Z pjb: Well, locally doesn't need a declaration, so this lambda form is ok.
2015-06-08T04:15:01Z beach: True.
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2015-06-08T04:17:36Z beach: And I don't exactly know what we are looking at, i.e. if that LAMBDA expression is some sub-expression of a bigger one, because we can't see the environments.
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2015-06-08T04:18:44Z Old_K: akkad: Thank you, although I still can't find the link of ams (Alfred M. Szmidt?)
2015-06-08T04:19:23Z akkad: Old_K: yes. Not sure he's published it all.
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2015-06-08T04:21:53Z Old_K: akkad: OK. Anyway, the key is (defun xlib:set-modifier-mapping (display &rest args)) to solve the freeze at startup and (defun xlib:close-display (display &key abort)) to solve the freeze when "save world".
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2015-06-08T04:24:17Z drmeister: beach: I'm fading fast.  Too many late nights.  I'll pick this up tomorrow.
2015-06-08T04:24:39Z beach: Good plan.
2015-06-08T04:24:41Z drmeister: I've got it narrowed down a bit
2015-06-08T04:24:57Z drmeister: I'll talk to you tomorrow.  I'm heading up to Boston on the train.
2015-06-08T04:25:08Z beach: OK.
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2015-06-08T04:37:52Z akkad: Error: this platform does not support :long-long.
2015-06-08T04:39:11Z pjb: you need 64-bit for long long.
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2015-06-08T04:55:58Z theos: there is long long?
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2015-06-08T04:59:58Z theos: hmm its a cffi thing
2015-06-08T05:00:18Z p_l: a C thing
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2015-06-08T05:01:59Z theos: maybe i should learn C someday
2015-06-08T05:02:23Z jaykru_: there's really not much to it
2015-06-08T05:02:35Z jaykru_: it's a really small language
2015-06-08T05:02:43Z jaykru_: check this out maybe? http://learnxinyminutes.com/docs/c/
2015-06-08T05:03:05Z theos: oh nice
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2015-06-08T05:08:55Z grdstate89: thx nice link
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2015-06-08T05:11:02Z grdstate89: goonight for all
2015-06-08T05:11:18Z jaykru_: night
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2015-06-08T05:18:45Z beach: jaykru_: There are some interesting restrictions on what you are allowed to write in C though.  Not only when it comes to nesting depth of statements, length of identifiers, etc.  But also where you are allowed to put things like longjmp() (and that makes it hard to write an exception mechanism for C), and where pointers are allowed to point.  I think most people are unaware of such restrictions.
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2015-06-08T05:20:28Z jaykru_: Very true, beach. Though I still will maintain that you can *get by* with a relatively rudimentary knowledge of C. Though arguably you shouldn't given how badly putting that much power in the hands of an incompetent programmer can go.
2015-06-08T05:22:46Z pjb: Given the number of programmers who use copy-pasting programming…
2015-06-08T05:23:18Z theos: will you call them programmers?
2015-06-08T05:23:53Z beach: jaykru_: Yes, I agree with you.  I am just saying that the language is significantly more complicated than the first impression might suggest.
2015-06-08T05:24:14Z Zhivago: Cut and paste is often the best choice.
2015-06-08T05:24:38Z Zhivago: The main benefit is that does not produce a dependency into the future.
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2015-06-08T06:15:36Z kami: Good morning
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2015-06-08T06:43:20Z theos: is there a way to increase scale/number of digits after decimal? currently its set to 6
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2015-06-08T06:58:22Z edgar-rft: theos: if *read-default-float-format* is set to 'single-float (default value), all floats are read and printed as single-floats unless you explicitely write e.g. 1.234567890d0 for a double-float, which should be printed with more than six digits after the dot.
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2015-06-08T07:13:24Z akkad: anyone else on the beta list for acl?
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2015-06-08T10:48:42Z standoo: why had lisp been associated with chatbots?
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2015-06-08T11:07:49Z p_l: don't think it ever was, except maybe "lisp=ai" angle
2015-06-08T11:07:57Z p_l: and well, eliza
2015-06-08T11:10:29Z loz1 wrote bot in for erlang chat =)
2015-06-08T11:10:36Z loz1: in lisp*
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2015-06-08T11:11:02Z standoo: i'm trying to design a bot programming platform
2015-06-08T11:11:14Z standoo: so just evaluating some languages which may be suitable
2015-06-08T11:11:46Z standoo: i read that some guy won the google chatbot contest with lisp
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2015-06-08T11:13:06Z loz1: somebody often does something with lisp
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2015-06-08T11:14:43Z pjb: even win contests.
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2015-06-08T11:15:02Z pjb: and invent new concepts.
2015-06-08T11:15:11Z pjb: and new applications of computers.
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2015-06-08T11:16:33Z standoo: oh?
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2015-06-08T11:18:20Z pjb: For example, windowing systems, computer graphics, computer animation were invented on Lisp Machines. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bTqWsVqyzE&list=PLFGwvw1jHU_THdNvecNthaKBHnRv9hxbL&index=18
2015-06-08T11:19:30Z pjb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VmJVNYfxDc
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2015-06-08T11:22:06Z loz1: pjb: any thoughts about http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSnnfUj1XCQ ?
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2015-06-08T11:24:41Z pjb: I can't watch it now. Ask again tomorrow. Good night!
2015-06-08T11:27:36Z loz1: okey, no problems, cya
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2015-06-08T12:17:05Z theos: standoo common lisp is the perfect language for designing a bot programming platform. you can transform it into any language you want to. like a specialized powerful new language/platform for bot design.
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2015-06-08T12:18:04Z standoo: theos: yeah it seems to thick those boxes well
2015-06-08T12:18:17Z standoo: theos: i'm looking at racket now though
2015-06-08T12:18:27Z standoo: theos: because it has a sandbox feature which i need
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2015-06-08T12:20:49Z theos: standoo you can transform CL into racket too :P more powerful racket than the actual one
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2015-06-08T12:21:53Z standoo: theos: i can't do that alone
2015-06-08T12:22:08Z standoo: theos: by the way, i'm new to lisp like languages
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2015-06-08T12:25:23Z theos: standoo you can, after learning CL. investing some time to learn Common Lisp(CL) will be worth it in the long run imo. once you master the CL macros, you can do extraordinary things with beautiful code!
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2015-06-08T12:28:17Z standoo: theos: you can be my mentor :)
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2015-06-08T12:28:55Z standoo: theos: what is a good starting book?
2015-06-08T12:29:30Z antoszka: minion: tell standoo about pcl
2015-06-08T12:29:30Z minion: standoo: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2015-06-08T12:31:30Z standoo: minion: who are you?
2015-06-08T12:31:30Z minion: why do you want to know?
2015-06-08T12:31:36Z standoo: minion: are you a bot?
2015-06-08T12:31:37Z minion: i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''.
2015-06-08T12:31:50Z standoo: how many bots are here?
2015-06-08T12:32:01Z standoo: minion: go do my dishes
2015-06-08T12:32:02Z minion: Would you /please/ stop playing with me? 3 messages in 31 seconds is too many.
2015-06-08T12:33:04Z standoo: what is the relation between lisp and racket?
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2015-06-08T12:33:45Z H4ns: standoo: this channel is about common lisp.  you may want to take your off-topic discussion to #lispcafe
2015-06-08T12:34:01Z H4ns: standoo: also, google is a fine resource to get answers to questions like your last.
2015-06-08T12:35:16Z theos: standoo i am still learning and there are super CL users here who can help you much more than i can.(follow the IRC etiquette). i can suggest some books to you which i find really awesome! You can learn the basics online easily and in no time. I read "ANSI Common Lisp" as the second book. Started with PCL but for some reason i didnt like it. maybe i am not smart enough. Then i suggest "On Lisp". then "Let Ov
2015-06-08T12:35:17Z theos: er Lambda" (these are macros mastering books).
2015-06-08T12:36:42Z antoszka: Land of Lisp is another possible introduction of the lighter calibre. Depends on your programming experience.
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2015-06-08T12:41:34Z standoo: antoszka: i know a bunch of languages from erlang, haskell, factor, lua, python, go
2015-06-08T12:41:48Z standoo: antoszka: at least some experience in them
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2015-06-08T12:42:02Z antoszka: standoo: cool, PCL should be just right then
2015-06-08T12:42:14Z antoszka: if not a bit too verbose.
2015-06-08T12:42:46Z standoo: antoszka: the place to find libraries is here? Quicklisp ?
2015-06-08T12:42:56Z antoszka: Yep.
2015-06-08T12:44:07Z theos: standoo you can use emacs. it has nice SLIME mode for developing CL applications
2015-06-08T12:44:40Z standoo: cool
2015-06-08T12:44:42Z standoo: thanks
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2015-06-08T12:46:15Z standoo: this channel seems to be slightly busier than racket
2015-06-08T12:46:25Z standoo: hope i can get more help if i get stuck
2015-06-08T12:47:04Z antoszka: standoo: You can also get SLIME from quicklisp, which I'd recommend. You'll get regular updates, and they will be in sync with the SWANK (common lisp side) counterpart.
2015-06-08T12:47:16Z standoo: cool
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2015-06-08T12:50:26Z standoo: downloading clozure now
2015-06-08T12:50:56Z antoszka: standoo: What platform are you running on?
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2015-06-08T12:52:49Z theos: SBCL for linux
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2015-06-08T12:54:07Z antoszka: standoo: yeah, if you're running linux, sbcl will the best supported option
2015-06-08T12:54:18Z antoszka: (at least on x86/64 :))
2015-06-08T12:55:12Z standoo: common lisp ha dynamic coad loading?
2015-06-08T12:55:34Z standoo: and can theoretically build some kind of resource limited sandbox?
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2015-06-08T12:56:07Z antoszka: yes
2015-06-08T12:56:18Z p_l: standoo: the latter though depends on your implementation
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2015-06-08T12:56:48Z H4ns: standoo: "theoretically" you can.  in practice, it is a lot of work.
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2015-06-08T12:57:45Z p_l: not many languages can really pull off the sandbox idea (Lua?)
2015-06-08T12:58:01Z H4ns: lua can, java can, javascript can, erlang can.
2015-06-08T12:58:05Z H4ns: granted, that is not a lot.
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2015-06-08T12:58:42Z standoo: erlang not that easy though as the language is designed the the code could be trusted
2015-06-08T12:59:41Z H4ns: point being: in common lisp it is, while theoretically possible, not really easy and the lack of a cl evaluation robot, a public cl rpl or a web server where you can evaluate arbitrary cl expressions is a testimonial to that.
2015-06-08T13:03:09Z Shinmera: Beach's first-class global environments could change that.
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2015-06-08T13:09:01Z antoszka: we're running a cl bot elsewhere, https://bitbucket.org/dodek/klacz -- it's got an ,eval command that you could get some inspiration from
2015-06-08T13:09:11Z antoszka: but yeah, it's not perfect, and it's quite complex.
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2015-06-08T13:10:53Z durm: I cant understand what for the lisp uses macroses? what operations you cant implement using ordinary functions, but can with macroses?
2015-06-08T13:11:23Z Zhivago: Macros are tiny and relatively stupid compilers.
2015-06-08T13:11:23Z Shinmera: macros are just functions. The difference is when they're evaluated.
2015-06-08T13:11:36Z H4ns: durm: try to write a function that implements IF
2015-06-08T13:11:42Z Zhivago: That's a very bad way to think of it.
2015-06-08T13:12:19Z Zhivago: It should be obvious that macros are always unnecessary, since a macro expansion compiles that form eventually into a form that does not contain the macro extension to the language.
2015-06-08T13:12:29Z loz1: well, the question was right about operations you cant implement with functions
2015-06-08T13:12:38Z Zhivago: So by definition, macros are unnecessary -- you must look elsewhere for the justification.
2015-06-08T13:12:45Z Zhivago: Please learn how to spell "can't".
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2015-06-08T13:13:11Z Zhivago: The place to look is 'convenience', 'expression', and 'compression'.
2015-06-08T13:13:27Z Zhivago: Understanding that they are compilers should help with understanding this.
2015-06-08T13:14:10Z standoo: https://github.com/tlikonen/cl-eval-bot
2015-06-08T13:14:25Z Zhivago: It's not hard to write a function that implements if.
2015-06-08T13:14:45Z Zhivago: Just implement your booleans as selector functions and pass closures though them.
2015-06-08T13:15:17Z H4ns: Zhivago: this channel is about common lisp, and you cannot implement CL:IF with a function.
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2015-06-08T13:15:58Z Zhivago: Ah. The expected answer to prevent all thought. :)
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2015-06-08T13:16:59Z jdz: Zhivago: what does the selector function you mentioned look like?
2015-06-08T13:17:30Z Zhivago: (defun true (yes no) (funcall yes)) (defun false (yes no) (funcall no))
2015-06-08T13:17:57Z jdz: i want my generalised booleans...
2015-06-08T13:17:59Z loz1: you still have to pass closures to if then
2015-06-08T13:18:11Z Zhivago: Sure, so what?
2015-06-08T13:18:18Z Zhivago: That's what macros are for. :)
2015-06-08T13:18:48Z jdz: this definitely is not about Common Lisp
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2015-06-08T13:24:00Z standoo: antoszka: so far i can limit time using bordeaux threads
2015-06-08T13:25:09Z antoszka: standoo: yeah, the bot I linked also uses a time limit for the bot-eval function.
2015-06-08T13:25:32Z standoo: antoszka: and maybe use something like this https://github.com/guicho271828/cl-rlimit/
2015-06-08T13:25:53Z standoo: antoszka: i'll probably need to see how racket does it
2015-06-08T13:26:31Z antoszka: Yeah, certainly have a look.
2015-06-08T13:26:44Z durm: thank you, guys
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2015-06-08T13:40:14Z standoo: antoszka: interestingly i can limit the memory of sbcl
2015-06-08T13:40:34Z standoo: antoszka: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/708861/coping-with-and-minimizing-memory-usage-in-common-lisp-sbcl
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2015-06-08T13:46:32Z antoszka: standoo: Don't know much about that. Guess the best place to talk about sbcl internals would be #sbcl.
2015-06-08T13:46:41Z theos: told you sbcl rocks
2015-06-08T13:47:07Z standoo: cool
2015-06-08T13:47:12Z standoo: i've learnt a lot today
2015-06-08T13:47:26Z standoo: you've all changed my mind from racket/scheme to common lisp
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2015-06-08T13:48:25Z antoszka: cool :)
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2015-06-08T13:53:38Z loz1: this is the purpose of this channel :D
2015-06-08T13:54:30Z nyef: Historically, the purpose of this channel was for SBCL developers to chat amongst themselves.
2015-06-08T13:57:22Z remi`bd: :D:
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2015-06-08T14:28:16Z theos: nyef history can always be modified :)
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2015-06-08T14:31:27Z nyef: theos: If you've got a time machine, I have a shopping list.
2015-06-08T14:31:58Z theos: nyef does a lisp machine count?
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2015-06-08T14:45:32Z remi`bd: yes, a lisp machine count as a time machine.
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2015-06-08T15:03:11Z Xof: historically, the purpose of this channel was for random people to talk about Multi-User Dungeons
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2015-06-08T15:04:20Z nyef: ... And, IIRC, gun control?
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2015-06-08T15:04:44Z Xof: oh yes
2015-06-08T15:04:47Z Xof: I'd forgotten about that
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2015-06-08T15:08:18Z theos: which version of "history" is more profitable?
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2015-06-08T15:09:18Z nyef: theos: The version where you have a time machine, so you can go back and obtain priceless historic artifacts as they are lost. Not to mention copies of books that are no longer available.
2015-06-08T15:09:58Z theos: nyef but how to make sure those things really existed and are not made up?
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2015-06-08T15:10:29Z nyef: That's a bit trickier.
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2015-06-08T15:11:33Z Zhivago: You get a certificate of authenticity to bring back with you.
2015-06-08T15:11:34Z jdz: that would be a problem that can be solved in presence of a time machine
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2015-06-08T15:11:46Z jdz: oh, damn, i read it wrong
2015-06-08T15:13:18Z p_l: nyef: heh, I remember a rather spirited discussion going on about human sexual behaviour
2015-06-08T15:13:36Z nyef: Another method is that you obtain your copies or your artifacts, and you relocate them to somewhere hidden and geologically stable. That way carbon dating and the like would show the correct ages.
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2015-06-08T15:18:09Z JordiGH: Land of Lisp recommends Clisp, so I'm trying to follow its recommendation so I can do its examples. I'm also attempting to use clisp with slime, but I'm getting this:
2015-06-08T15:18:12Z JordiGH: #P"/usr/share/common-lisp/source/slime/swank/clisp.lisp" @704>: there is no package with name "PXREF
2015-06-08T15:18:19Z JordiGH: "
2015-06-08T15:18:45Z Xach: JordiGH: it can be better to not get slime from the system package system, but through the emacs package system or quicklisp
2015-06-08T15:19:07Z JordiGH: I already tried quicklisp, same problem.
2015-06-08T15:19:17Z JordiGH: I assume clisp is to blame, not slime?
2015-06-08T15:19:36Z JordiGH: If I can avoid one-package-manager-per-programming-language, I'd rather do that.
2015-06-08T15:19:39Z H4ns: JordiGH: you installed clisp using the debian package system.  that is the cause.
2015-06-08T15:19:50Z Xach: JordiGH: You can't avoid it easily for Common Lisp.
2015-06-08T15:20:03Z JordiGH: Every programming language says the same thing, I don't believe it.
2015-06-08T15:20:05Z H4ns: JordiGH: if you want a good common lisp development experience, use sbcl, quicklisp and slime.
2015-06-08T15:20:05Z Xach: JordiGH: but /usr/share/common-lisp/... overrides quicklisp's copy
2015-06-08T15:20:10Z JordiGH: I'm sick of cabal, pip, npm...
2015-06-08T15:20:15Z H4ns: JordiGH: it is not a matter of belief.
2015-06-08T15:20:29Z H4ns: JordiGH: if you ignore our advice, you'll not have a pleasant time.  it is that simple.
2015-06-08T15:20:41Z JordiGH: Sure it is. I'd rather fix the Debian packaging of clisp than use another package manager per programming language.
2015-06-08T15:20:51Z JordiGH: So, the Debian packaging of clisp is missing a package?
2015-06-08T15:20:56Z Xach: that is fine. nobody has done it yet.
2015-06-08T15:21:00Z H4ns: JordiGH: enjoy your yak shaving.
2015-06-08T15:21:05Z Xach: It is not clear what is missing or misconfigured.
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2015-06-08T15:21:23Z JordiGH: "PXREF" doesn't mean anything to you flks?
2015-06-08T15:21:27Z JordiGH: folks*
2015-06-08T15:21:35Z Xach: it means portable xref.
2015-06-08T15:21:42Z H4ns: JordiGH: most of us use sbcl to begin with.
2015-06-08T15:21:45Z Xach: (cross-referencing for looking up source locations)
2015-06-08T15:21:55Z JordiGH: H4ns: Alright.
2015-06-08T15:22:03Z Xach: JordiGH: i don't think it's clisp, i think it's slime in this case.
2015-06-08T15:22:22Z JordiGH: Xach: Hm, I don't have this problem with sbcl.
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2015-06-08T15:22:33Z JordiGH: Is clisp trying to load a package that doesn't exist?
2015-06-08T15:22:44Z Xach: JordiGH: I don't know, sorry.
2015-06-08T15:22:52Z Xach: I don't use clisp or debian packaging of lisp stuff.
2015-06-08T15:22:52Z JordiGH: Okay, thanks, I'll keep working on this.
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2015-06-08T16:45:55Z remi`bd: JordiGH: there are language-specific packaging systems because you can’t expect each distribution to have a perfect & complete set of packages for every language
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2015-06-08T16:46:37Z remi`bd: the Lisp community waited a long time for this to happen, and then Quicklisp has been written.
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2015-06-08T16:47:27Z JordiGH: remi`bd: Yes, yes I can expect that, and I'll keep working towards that expectation.
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2015-06-08T16:47:55Z remi`bd: and it has been said you shalt use it, as it is currently the only way you canst have an updated Lisp system
2015-06-08T16:48:12Z Xach: Quicklisp works the way it does because it runs on Linux, Mac OS X, and Windows in approximately the same way in each place.
2015-06-08T16:48:34Z Xach: I am very glad if Quicklisp data could be used to make good Debian packages. dim is doing stuff like that.
2015-06-08T16:49:03Z Xach: My experiences with the packaging was so bad a while ago that I have avoided it ever since.
2015-06-08T16:49:28Z JordiGH: Can quicklisp uninstall? That's the usual thing that pip, cabal, npm, gems, cpan, and pear can't do right
2015-06-08T16:49:43Z remi`bd: shame on the Common Lisp Controller
2015-06-08T16:49:44Z JordiGH: Can it upgrade? Can it track versioned dependencies?
2015-06-08T16:49:51Z Shinmera: For a developer it's also simply not feasible to create packages for every distro and OS out there. Nobody would bother.
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2015-06-08T16:49:56Z remi`bd: JordiGH: it does
2015-06-08T16:49:59Z JordiGH: Can it guarantee that packages work well with each other?
2015-06-08T16:50:09Z JordiGH: remi`bd: Does it implement optional dependencies?
2015-06-08T16:50:17Z Xach: JordiGH: yes, yes, yes, no
2015-06-08T16:50:17Z JordiGH: Has it reimplemented everything about apt?
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2015-06-08T16:50:25Z Xach: No.
2015-06-08T16:50:33Z JordiGH: Okay, then I don't want it.
2015-06-08T16:50:37Z remi`bd: please, JordiGH, stop being so rude.
2015-06-08T16:50:48Z Xach: It's not rude to not want something that doesn't fit your needs.
2015-06-08T16:50:54Z JordiGH: There's nothing rude about not wanting quicklisp. It's rude of you to push it on me when I don't want it.
2015-06-08T16:51:22Z Xach: It is just a lonelier path without it.
2015-06-08T16:51:28Z JordiGH: I'm ok being lonely.
2015-06-08T16:51:30Z Shinmera: Not implementing optional dependencies is an ASDF problem though, not one of Quicklisp.
2015-06-08T16:52:21Z foom: "has it reimplemented everything about apt" is not a very useful question. ;p
2015-06-08T16:52:52Z remi`bd: JordiGH: well, I was actually pushing you, but I was refering to your abrupt way of asking questions, not your will to use whatever packaging system you want
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2015-06-08T16:53:06Z Xach is reminded of http://cr.yp.to/compatibility.html
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2015-06-08T16:53:56Z JordiGH: remi`bd: I am sorry, my good sir. I will make good care and practice to preface my questions with the proper protocols so that you do not find me curt or impolite, which was never my intention. I again implore you to forgive me for bombarding your with more questions than you cared to answer.
2015-06-08T16:54:03Z JordiGH: Or madam.
2015-06-08T16:54:27Z Shinmera: Can we not devolve this into a piss fest? Thanks.
2015-06-08T16:54:40Z JordiGH: Such uncouth language.
2015-06-08T16:54:50Z Shinmera sighs
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2015-06-08T16:56:08Z jasom: Xach: DJB got the command for his own tool wrong
2015-06-08T16:56:29Z jasom: Xach: it's svc -d to stop a service; svc -t will terminate it and then it will restart automatically
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2015-06-08T16:57:43Z Xach: I don't think that greatly takes away from the overall point, which is about the tension between platform familiarity and tool familiarity
2015-06-08T16:57:53Z jasom: yeah
2015-06-08T16:58:17Z jasom: someone wrote a tool to automatically package up quicklisp packages as debian packages
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2015-06-08T16:58:44Z Shinmera: https://github.com/dimitri/ql-to-deb
2015-06-08T16:59:16Z Xach: That's dim's work.
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2015-06-08T16:59:42Z jasom: right, he did it so pgloader would be buildable with just debian tools (which is some requirement for debian packages)
2015-06-08T17:00:56Z jasom: http://tapoueh.org/blog/2015/05/02-ql-to-deb.html
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2015-06-08T17:02:22Z Fade: pgloader is an amazing system.
2015-06-08T17:02:42Z Xach: To me, it was really cool to see Dave Cooper tell 80 people at ELS a single command that would set them up to try his demo, despite the fact that there were a dozen different platforms in use by the attendees. But I get the desire to go the other way, too.
2015-06-08T17:03:02Z Xach: I get it but am not investing any personal effort in that direction.
2015-06-08T17:03:10Z jasom: yeah, dim *really* seems to care aboug getting things right
2015-06-08T17:03:28Z Fade: his work is incredibly impressive.
2015-06-08T17:03:43Z JordiGH: This ql-to-deb thing does seem interesting.
2015-06-08T17:03:55Z JordiGH: Colourful, too.
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2015-06-08T17:04:56Z Quadrescence: Whoa, it's JordiGH
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2015-06-08T17:06:30Z jasom: JordiGH: on a side-note, most ASDF systems get away without having versioned dependencies because the pace of development of most lisp libraries is such that breaking changes are relatively rare
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2015-06-08T17:14:46Z PuercoPop: and ql doesn't have optional dependencies because that is a feature of ASDF, not ql.
2015-06-08T17:15:12Z Shinmera: PuercoPop: or rather, not a feature, as I already pointed out.
2015-06-08T17:15:48Z Xach: Well, since quicklisp statically indexes everything, even if asdf grew the feature, it could be tricky to get it working with quicklisp.
2015-06-08T17:16:16Z didi: Suppose I am writing a package with an exported function that takes as an argument a list of symbols and lists. This function works by interpreting the symbols from this list. Symbols from different packages are not eq[l][ual][ualp] and I don't want to use keywords. Is comparing `symbol-name' of symbols an acceptable alternative?
2015-06-08T17:16:46Z Bike: didi: it's what loop does, at least
2015-06-08T17:16:48Z jasom: ASDF does have optional dependencies, since you can use feature flags in a .asd file
2015-06-08T17:16:54Z didi: Bike: Oh, interesting.
2015-06-08T17:17:10Z Bike: i'd say it depends on what you're doing though. like, if these were class names you would want to use actual symbols.
2015-06-08T17:17:19Z jasom: it's just not really a good idea; much simpler to have a foo/uses-bar system and a foo/doesnt-use-bar system
2015-06-08T17:18:21Z didi: Bike: Ah, I see. In my case, they are atomic, if the nomenclature makes sense.
2015-06-08T17:18:56Z Bike: i don't know what that means, no
2015-06-08T17:20:09Z didi: Sorry. Hum, `foo::bar' and `baz::bar' should be interpreted the same. `bar' is the symbol I am interested in, no matter from where it comes from.
2015-06-08T17:20:40Z jasom: didi: why are you using symbols instead of strings or keywords then?
2015-06-08T17:21:17Z didi: jasom: Strings are harder to manipulate and keywords need to be prefixed by `:', which makes it less convenient to type.
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2015-06-08T17:21:56Z jasom: didi: symbol-name will give you the name of the symbol; it generally isn't considered good style (the LOOP macro notwithstanding)
2015-06-08T17:22:10Z didi: jasom: oic. Thank you.
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2015-06-08T17:22:54Z jasom: though if you are just making a DSL and you don't want to have to export all the identifiers, then I wouldn't call it a terrible idea (and this is what LOOP does)
2015-06-08T17:23:06Z didi nods
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2015-06-08T17:23:39Z jasom: a big advantage of symbols is that foo:bar and baz:bar are distinct names, and this is one of the things that allows CL to get away without hygienic macros
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2015-06-08T17:24:06Z bizarrefish: Elo
2015-06-08T17:24:19Z jasom: bizarrefish: they are a pretty good band
2015-06-08T17:24:40Z bizarrefish: They're a band?
2015-06-08T17:24:42Z bizarrefish: :/
2015-06-08T17:24:46Z H4ns: *shiver*
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2015-06-08T17:25:00Z bizarrefish: Ah, electric light orchestra. Withya
2015-06-08T17:25:01Z Bike: electric light orchestra, lookemup
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2015-06-08T17:29:46Z PuercoPop: Shinmera: ASDF does have optional dependencies using feature flags.
2015-06-08T17:30:27Z Shinmera: PuercoPop: That's a hack, not really a solution.
2015-06-08T17:31:08Z jasom: Shinmera: I don't really see it as such; "optional dependency" is a fairly vague term anyway
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2015-06-08T17:31:53Z PuercoPop: Shinmera: are you talking about using #+/- reader macros as a hack? Because asdf has explicit support for features w/o the reader macro
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2015-06-08T17:32:20Z jasom: "I want optional dependencies" doesn't tell me what rule needs to be used to decide when to pull in a dependency
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2015-06-08T17:35:09Z Shinmera: PuercoPop: yeah, but feature flags are not tied to systems. That's an extra thing you need to configure separately.
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2015-06-08T17:35:40Z Shinmera: Hence why I call it a hack, rather than an intentional way of configuring optional dependencies.
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2015-06-08T17:53:21Z cheryllium: I wonder if there'd be any interest in a Lisp library that plays sounds on Windows using mci. I wrote a simple one last night after failing to get mixalot to work
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2015-06-08T17:55:03Z cheryllium: I used CFFI and so far the thing I have can open, play, pause, stop and close mp3 files. It's pretty simple but pretty cool
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2015-06-08T17:55:35Z eudoxia: cheryllium: you should totally upload it and add it to quicklisp
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2015-06-08T18:13:15Z cheryllium: Here it is for those interested https://github.com/cheryllium/cl-mci
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2015-06-08T18:17:48Z cheryllium: I'm still learning a lot of things, so I would love suggestions on what to do next with this.
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2015-06-08T18:27:47Z Fare: JordiGH, if you want to fix the debian packaging of clisp, there is much to do
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2015-06-08T18:28:30Z Fare: start by grabbing the latest clisp source, and replace its asdf by the latest asdf. Maybe become clisp maintainer and release an official clisp with it.
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2015-06-08T18:38:57Z JordiGH: I have in fact considered attempting to become a clisp release maintainer. Everyone seems to think clisp is a dead toy implementation, though.
2015-06-08T18:39:09Z JordiGH: And its lead dev is really nuts.
2015-06-08T18:39:21Z JordiGH: But as long as I stay away from political topics with him, he might be ok.
2015-06-08T18:40:17Z jaykru_: how is he nuts exactly?
2015-06-08T18:40:25Z remi`bd: he writes in Lisp
2015-06-08T18:40:33Z jaykru_: lol
2015-06-08T18:40:35Z JordiGH: lol
2015-06-08T18:40:39Z remi`bd: (sorry, that was easy)
2015-06-08T18:41:16Z JordiGH: No, he's got these anti-Muslim diatribes on his personal website.
2015-06-08T18:41:27Z JordiGH: Pretty racistish.
2015-06-08T18:42:08Z fe[nl]ix: it's not a toy implementation, it's actually quite sophisticated
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2015-06-08T18:43:17Z JordiGH: How come it's not popular?
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2015-06-08T18:45:13Z jackdaniel: it isn't? afair it was proposed implementation by a few CL books
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2015-06-08T18:46:22Z Bike: it's kind of weird to use, but it's not a toy or nothing.
2015-06-08T18:46:25Z JordiGH: Yeah, I started using it because Land of Lisp recommends it.
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2015-06-08T18:47:11Z oGMo: isn't it written in the author's pet language, rather than lisp?
2015-06-08T18:47:27Z JordiGH: Looks like C to me.
2015-06-08T18:47:30Z JordiGH checks again.
2015-06-08T18:47:33Z JordiGH: (Well, and lisp)
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2015-06-08T18:47:42Z Bike: i think ogmo meant LoL.
2015-06-08T18:47:54Z oGMo: i meant CLISP
2015-06-08T18:48:01Z Bike: oh, oops.
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2015-06-08T18:48:17Z Bike: pretty sure there's a lot of C, yeah.
2015-06-08T18:48:19Z JordiGH: Yeah, clisp looks like C and lisp.
2015-06-08T18:48:20Z jackdaniel: it's written in C afaik
2015-06-08T18:48:25Z jackdaniel: and lisp obviously
2015-06-08T18:48:34Z jaykru_: yeah
2015-06-08T18:48:35Z oGMo: no, it's written in "d", and not _that_ D, iirc
2015-06-08T18:48:50Z oGMo: looking at the source tree for 2.49 at least, I see lots of *.d
2015-06-08T18:49:08Z jaykru_: I think probably one of the big reasons barksi chose clisp was the built in readline support clisp has
2015-06-08T18:49:15Z jackdaniel: oGMo: isn't it just source file for dpp?
2015-06-08T18:49:46Z Bike: http://www.gnu.org/software/clisp/impnotes/src-preprocessing.html
2015-06-08T18:50:00Z oGMo: jackdaniel: i suppose i'd have to go through manually to tell, but it looks like a lot of core-sounding things in src/
2015-06-08T18:50:07Z Bike: this does look kind of silly
2015-06-08T18:50:09Z jaykru_: JordiGH can you link me to some of the author's diatribes?
2015-06-08T18:50:34Z jaykru_: I guess the menorah that shows on launch makes a little more sense if he's an extremist zionist
2015-06-08T18:50:36Z oGMo: i think even if it was written in C, it would be easier to get maintained
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2015-06-08T18:52:14Z jackdaniel: clisp is written in C wrt Bike link. On the other hand ECL is written in C also, but *all* sources has .d extension and are preprocessed because contain a few lispsisms
2015-06-08T18:52:30Z jackdaniel: all c sources has .d extension°
2015-06-08T18:53:03Z oGMo: the source also looks pretty horrific at a glance
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2015-06-08T18:54:49Z jackdaniel dives back into kernel hacking \o
2015-06-08T18:54:56Z oGMo: jackdaniel: lisp? ;)
2015-06-08T18:55:09Z jackdaniel: no, linux ^_^
2015-06-08T18:55:18Z oGMo: aw .. fun though
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2015-06-08T19:03:41Z JordiGH: jaykru_: Mysteriously, Sam Steingold's homepage seems down: http://sds.podval.org/commies.html
2015-06-08T19:03:51Z jaykru_: lmao commies
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2015-06-08T19:04:46Z JordiGH: jaykru_: I'm not sure he's wacko zionist... I don't like when "Zionist" is used in the same sense of "anti-Muslim". He's definitely got some pretty weird personal opinions.
2015-06-08T19:05:11Z jaykru_: http://puu.sh/ihjRT/35d68c7a0f.png jesus christ
2015-06-08T19:05:36Z H4ns: take your off topic stuff somewhere else, please.
2015-06-08T19:05:50Z jaykru_: sorry about that
2015-06-08T19:06:26Z JordiGH: jaykru_: How did you find that?
2015-06-08T19:06:39Z jaykru_: archive.org let's get back on topic though, JordiGH
2015-06-08T19:07:09Z JordiGH: Oh, topic police is on duty around here?
2015-06-08T19:07:13Z JordiGH: I'm used to #emacs, sorry.
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2015-06-08T19:15:41Z PuercoPop: jaykru_: also uses clisp's socket specific library midway through the book. It is trivial to port it to usocket. But I think he wanted to make it easy to get started.
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2015-06-08T19:16:39Z pjb: minion: memo for didi: you wouldn't call symbol-name to compare symbols, but string= !  If you want to ensure symbols, you would write (and (symbolp x) (string= x 'hello)).
2015-06-08T19:16:39Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell didi when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-06-08T19:17:40Z fe[nl]ix: JordiGH: clisp is difficult to build, and at this point unmaintained
2015-06-08T19:17:56Z fe[nl]ix: there's a Debian package if you're using that, but it's old
2015-06-08T19:18:04Z JordiGH: fe[nl]ix: I managed to build it, but it segfaulted during its tests.
2015-06-08T19:18:19Z JordiGH: The problem is libsigsegv, I think, which is used by other GNU packages.
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2015-06-08T19:18:33Z JordiGH: So it might be worthwhile to fix libsigsegv.
2015-06-08T19:18:37Z fe[nl]ix: not that many
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2015-06-08T19:19:27Z JordiGH: No, true, but it does give me a bit of motivation to fix the thing.
2015-06-08T19:19:29Z fe[nl]ix: and you made my point, it's difficult to get a correct combination of gcc/clisp/libsigsegv
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2015-06-08T19:21:09Z fe[nl]ix: and libffcall, that one tends to break with new gcc versions too
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2015-06-08T19:21:56Z pjb: JordiGH: #lispcafe is intended to be the #emacs of #lisp.
2015-06-08T19:22:32Z pjb: clisp is not difficult to build. But since it's written in C, it has a lot of C libraries dependencies, hence the difficulties.
2015-06-08T19:22:42Z pjb: The main problem of clisp is that it's written in C.
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2015-06-08T19:24:53Z JordiGH: fe[nl]ix: There's been a lot of work since the last clisp release, though. Do you think it's worthwhile trying to release that?
2015-06-08T19:25:36Z fe[nl]ix: I don't know, I haven't used it in the meanwhile
2015-06-08T19:25:39Z fe[nl]ix: you call
2015-06-08T19:25:43Z fe[nl]ix: *your
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2015-06-08T19:37:08Z JordiGH: Yeah, that's kind of the thing, right? If nobody's using clisp, what's the point?
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2015-06-08T19:43:35Z jasom: pjb: it's not just written in C, it's written in only marginally portable C.
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2015-06-08T19:47:28Z mood: What's the current state of package-local nicknames support in different implementations? SBCL has it, ABCL seems to, how about others?
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2015-06-08T19:49:32Z pjb: JordiGH: I use it, all the time.
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2015-06-08T19:53:12Z kristof: Someone mentioned that clisp was pretty sophisticated. From what I recall, it has an experimental JIT compiler backend using GNU Lightning
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2015-06-08T19:55:00Z kristof: I was going to say it would be interesting to see how CLisp performs if it moves its backend to LLVM but I had momentarily forgotten that Clasp is already such an implementation :P
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2015-06-08T19:58:56Z fe[nl]ix: kristof: I think that the target of Clasp is different from Clisp
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2015-06-08T20:05:43Z fe[nl]ix: kristof: Clisp already has one of the fastest bytecode interpreters I've ever seen
2015-06-08T20:07:41Z oGMo: also isn't llvm's bitcode not particularly fast anyway?
2015-06-08T20:08:13Z jasom: oGMo: correct, llvm is primarily a compiler IR
2015-06-08T20:08:28Z jasom: designed to be either JITed or statically compiled to machine code
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2015-06-08T20:10:13Z fe[nl]ix: the main problem with Clisp is that it relies on undefined behaviour so it will be broken by even minor GCC updates
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2015-06-08T20:14:45Z oGMo: jasom: that was my impression
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2015-06-08T20:23:00Z akkad: There really should be a PSA to not pay for Allegro for performance reasons.
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2015-06-08T20:25:56Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: I've once looked into a piece of CLISP internals and then followed a thread by the author of that piece
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2015-06-08T20:26:11Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: it was probably the single thing that keeps me the most from using CLISP
2015-06-08T20:26:37Z p_l: akkad: hmm?
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2015-06-08T20:41:56Z Fare wonders where to publish https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/blob/minimakefile/tools/failure.lisp
2015-06-08T20:42:14Z Fare: create a new library just for that???
2015-06-08T20:42:35Z pjb: Done.
2015-06-08T20:42:48Z Fare: or maybe a new cl-scripting library in which to put that and other utilities useful in writing scripts
2015-06-08T20:43:17Z Fare: pjb: right now it's tied to asdf testing tools in a branch that isn't official — not a good way to publish it.
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2015-06-08T20:49:57Z kristof: fe[nl]ix: Oh, I wasn't aware that JIT compilation of LLVM IR wasn't very good
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2015-06-08T20:50:40Z fe[nl]ix: yeah
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2015-06-08T21:00:40Z pjb: Fare: it seems the majority prefer small independent libraries.  Fork it off to its own git repo and tell Xach to include it in quicklisp.
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2015-06-08T21:05:05Z fourier: pjb: +1
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2015-06-08T21:10:38Z Fare checks that no one has created a cl-scripting yet
2015-06-08T21:10:47Z Fare: github? gitlab.common-lisp.net ?
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2015-06-08T21:15:49Z fourier: I would use github, it is easiest and hassle free, and people will easily fork out they like the lib and would like to do some modifications
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2015-06-08T21:20:03Z pjb: I'd advise gitlab the successor of gitorious.
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2015-06-08T21:37:26Z mea-culpa: why step doesn't work on sbcl as it's written in paip?
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2015-06-08T21:39:30Z pjb: some implementations are incomplete, and the exact behavior of step is implementation dependant anyways (and also, optimize dependant).
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2015-06-08T21:39:42Z pjb: mea-culpa: for a conforming step utility, you can use cl-stepper.
2015-06-08T21:40:14Z pjb:  com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp.stepper
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2015-06-08T21:43:07Z mea-culpa: okay, thanks
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2015-06-08T21:48:33Z dim: discovering gitlab on common-lisp.net, interesting
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2015-06-08T22:06:35Z attila_lendvai: luis: make sure you know those libs pjb just mentioned above...
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2015-06-08T22:36:24Z Fare: OK, here it goes: https://github.com/fare/cl-scripting
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2015-06-08T23:07:23Z jasom: Fare: when did cl-launch gain the ability to do multi-dispatch binaries?
2015-06-08T23:08:54Z Fare: jasom: quite recently.
2015-06-08T23:09:22Z Fare: April 21, says the git log.
2015-06-08T23:09:42Z Fare: Actually, April 1st.
2015-06-08T23:09:48Z Fare: So... maybe it's a joke.
2015-06-08T23:12:03Z Fare: See my post on CL as a scripting language 2015 edition: fare.livejournal.com/184127.html
2015-06-08T23:13:43Z jasom: Fare: FWIW sbcl with lz4hc core compression generates reasonably sized binaries with quick startup
2015-06-08T23:14:08Z Fare: jasom: can you add this feature to cl-launch?
2015-06-08T23:14:35Z jasom: I don't know if it's in stable sbcl yet; I prototyped it, and someone else took up the work to get it incorporated
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2015-06-08T23:15:08Z Fare: how fast can it be to uncompress 80MB of heap?
2015-06-08T23:15:49Z jasom: lz4 decompresses faster than RAM, but slower than L2
2015-06-08T23:16:28Z jasom: IIRC it's a few GB/s
2015-06-08T23:16:36Z Fare: without decompression, my 80MB images start in about .03 seconds.
2015-06-08T23:16:51Z jasom looks for his benchmarks
2015-06-08T23:17:00Z Fare: how much slower would it be with compression?
2015-06-08T23:17:49Z jasom: it was sub 100ms on my machine
2015-06-08T23:18:41Z Fare: still more than I would like to pay for my handy scripts
2015-06-08T23:18:59Z Fare: but probably small enough that it wouldn't matter on non-interactive programs.
2015-06-08T23:19:31Z jasom: it was definitely fast enough for interactive programs
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2015-06-08T23:20:13Z jasom: the only number I can find written down is 5x faster than the zlib compression
2015-06-08T23:21:05Z jasom: and zlib was too slow for interactive programs for me
2015-06-08T23:21:16Z Fare: well, my interactive scripts themselves tend to `run-program` other programs, so overhead in starting the script only counts as a fraction of the total latency that must be kept under .08s or so to feel "instantaneous".
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2015-06-08T23:23:06Z jasom: .05s according to the mailing list
2015-06-08T23:24:58Z jasom: https://github.com/orivej/sbcl <-- there it is if you want to try it out
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2015-06-08T23:27:40Z jasom: The patch was submitted right before a release, and pvk didn't want to merge it before the release; it looks like it got dropped since.
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2015-06-08T23:30:49Z Fare: :-/
2015-06-08T23:30:58Z jasom just pinged the list
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2015-06-08T23:31:07Z Fare: .05s is acceptable!
2015-06-08T23:31:38Z Fare: well, it doesn't leave much time for the OTHER stuff to happen and still appear instantaneous, but at least it does leave some time.
2015-06-08T23:31:45Z jasom: The unique feature of lz4 is crazy-fast decompress
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2015-06-08T23:32:30Z jasom: ~2GB/s on a 2.7GHz Core-i5
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2015-06-08T23:33:17Z Fare: would be nice to have that in sbcl master, indeed
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2015-06-08T23:33:54Z jasom: When I prototyped it, I couldn't figure out why it was so much slower than loading from disk (I think maybe sbcl cheats and mmaps or something?) as streaming lz4 should be roughly as fast as memcpy
2015-06-08T23:34:55Z jasom: but it was still a whole lot faster than the existing zlib, while being only about 10% larger
2015-06-08T23:34:56Z Fare: sbcl definitely mmaps, so if the memory never gets touched and there's no GC, big win.
2015-06-08T23:35:15Z jasom: yeah, I was doing read().
2015-06-08T23:35:43Z jasom: also SBCL got a lot faster at image loading approximately 3 years ago.
2015-06-08T23:35:53Z jasom: It went from being about twice the time of CCL to a wash
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2015-06-08T23:36:44Z Fare: did they eschew a lot of C dynamic loading adjustments?
2015-06-08T23:36:57Z jasom wrote a toy "make" replacement in lisp and it recursively called itself a *lot* so I was a bit obsessive about image load times
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2015-06-08T23:37:30Z jasom: Fare: I don't know what they did; I just remembered that I mentioned in here that CCL was 2x faster and someone else told me to rerun my benchmarks
2015-06-08T23:37:58Z jasom: https://github.com/jasom/image-bench  <-- there is my benchmark, btw
2015-06-08T23:40:12Z Fare: my eyes hurt reading a shell script.
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2015-06-08T23:42:16Z jasom: test.do is the ugly one: pipe to a subshell execution of read
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2015-06-08T23:45:43Z physixer: so if I say (defun sq (lambda (x) (* x x))) ... and then can I do something like (suchthat sq(x) 36) to get 6?
2015-06-08T23:47:18Z jasom: physixer: in the general case, the problem is undecidable
2015-06-08T23:47:53Z physixer: or (defun sqrt (lambda (y) (suchthat sq(x) y)))
2015-06-08T23:47:55Z jasom: physixer: there are plenty of symbolic algebra systems for lisp, any one of which can solve algebraic problems though.
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2015-06-08T23:49:10Z jasom: also you're using some weird sort of hybrid between scheme and lisp for defining your functions...
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2015-06-08T23:49:51Z physixer: jasom: yeah I learned scheme and then tried to be a smart-ass by replacing define with defun and hoping no one will catch that.
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2015-06-08T23:51:31Z jasom: consider: (defun foo (x) (random 10)) (suchthat foo(x) 7) => ?
2015-06-08T23:53:00Z physixer: but this is problematic because of the randomness?
2015-06-08T23:53:11Z jasom: not necessarily randomness
2015-06-08T23:53:29Z Zhivago: How about writing a DEFINE macro?
2015-06-08T23:53:43Z jasom: there are fully deterministic functions that are non-trivially reversible
2015-06-08T23:54:05Z Zhivago: Then it could translate (define (sq x) (* x x)) into (defun sq (x) (* x x)), etc.
2015-06-08T23:54:34Z jasom: (suchthat md5(x) #x595f44fec1e92a71d3e9e77456ba80d1)
2015-06-08T23:55:21Z physixer: jasom: so multi-valued function
2015-06-08T23:55:37Z jasom: physixer: no, just a function that is non-trivially reversible
2015-06-08T23:55:52Z jasom: secure hashes are one example (they are only secure if they are non-trivially reversible)
2015-06-08T23:56:07Z physixer: hmm
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2015-06-08T23:56:16Z jasom: but they are also fully determined by their inputs
2015-06-08T23:57:22Z nyef: ODDP is another one, fully determined by its input, yet not easy to reverse.
2015-06-08T23:57:39Z jasom: heh
2015-06-08T23:58:09Z jasom: it's easy to reverse: (defun reverse-oddp (output) (if output 1 0))
2015-06-08T23:59:04Z jasom: squaring isn't reversible either; IIRC every real number has two square roots
2015-06-08T23:59:23Z jasom:  (suchthat sq(x) 36) => -6
2015-06-09T00:04:07Z Bike: if it's a bijection and it's total it can be reversed. i wonder what the complexity of that given the algorithm is, more specifically than "really bad"
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2015-06-09T00:10:22Z physixer: Bike: I watched a Norvig video (for python) recently and he explained it as a search problem. It's fairly efficient (to put in layman terms) if the stepsize is doubled at every iteration, and then halved, and so on.
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2015-06-09T00:10:32Z pillton: jasom Bike physixer: (cos theta) = 0.
2015-06-09T00:11:52Z Bike: yes, that's why i specified "bijection"
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2015-06-09T00:13:10Z Bike: physixer: that sounds like it's using continuity also
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2015-06-09T00:15:46Z physixer: Bike: yes he was doing some continuous monotonically increasing function.
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2015-06-09T00:16:53Z Bike: well, with those constraints you could probably write suchthat reasonably easily, sure.
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2015-06-09T00:25:56Z pillton: The proximity operator for the l-infinity norm requires one of those searches.
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2015-06-09T01:33:23Z Kudos2me2: omg lmao!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR_GkTLg
2015-06-09T01:33:27Z Kudos2me2: omg lmao!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR_GkTLg
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2015-06-09T02:47:17Z theos:  This video does not exist.  :/
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2015-06-09T03:10:55Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-06-09T03:11:28Z kristof: good morning
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2015-06-09T03:13:28Z jaykru: good evening
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2015-06-09T03:15:39Z Oladon: Evening beach :)
2015-06-09T03:18:02Z theos: hey
2015-06-09T03:18:07Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-06-09T03:19:01Z theos thinks every prof has a dream to retire on a beach_
2015-06-09T03:20:10Z beach: Turns out my current bootstrapping strategy requires quite a lot of memory.  On my dinky 32-bit laptop, SBCL gives me 1/2 GB by default and 1GB max (that's how much RAM the laptop has) and this is not enough. :(
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2015-06-09T03:20:59Z theos: buy more ram :D
2015-06-09T03:21:16Z beach: Might be possible but not sure.
2015-06-09T03:21:42Z beach: But I am not going to make the bootstrapping more complicated just because of that, so I just have to work on other things while on my laptop.
2015-06-09T03:22:15Z theos: you can always try to convince the headmaster to let you use the university servers :D
2015-06-09T03:22:30Z Fare: beach: today's small laptops come with 4GB RAM.
2015-06-09T03:22:40Z beach: Oh, I have computing power elsewhere.  That's not the problem.
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2015-06-09T03:23:04Z beach: Fare: Yeah, this one is a few years old.  And it was sold as a "netbook".
2015-06-09T03:23:30Z Bike: oh neat, someone else uses one of these things.
2015-06-09T03:23:40Z beach: It works very well, so I hate throwing it away.
2015-06-09T03:25:13Z theos: you can use it as a front end to control a supercomputer in the basement
2015-06-09T03:26:15Z beach: If I am near the basement, I am also near my desktop machine which has enough RAM.
2015-06-09T03:27:04Z beach: theos: But I get the point.  Thanks.
2015-06-09T03:27:55Z theos needs a supercomputer in his basement too. but first he needs a basement.
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2015-06-09T03:28:34Z Fare: beach: you don't have to throw it away. You can make it a home server, just like I made Rebecca's old laptop into my home server (running NixOS).
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2015-06-09T03:29:39Z Fare: I see very decent laptops under $700.
2015-06-09T03:29:43Z nyef: I used a (maxed out) netbook for a few years, until I dropped it by accident, torquing the case so that it wouldn't close properly anymore, leading to it triggering wake-from-suspend events from simply closing the lid too hard.
2015-06-09T03:30:32Z nyef: Most painful aspect of the overall netbook experience was that a lot of software isn't designed for 600-pixel-high screens.
2015-06-09T03:32:14Z beach: Yeah, I basically only use it when I travel.
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2015-06-09T03:32:40Z beach: It is perfect in some sense because it can be unfolded in an airplane seat.
2015-06-09T03:33:45Z beach: Fare: Yes, money is not a problem.
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2015-06-09T03:41:21Z Fare: I was excited that Duolingo had a vietnamese module... but it was English for Vietnamese speakers, not Vietnamese for English speakers.
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2015-06-09T03:41:39Z jaykru_: I know the feeling :(
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2015-06-09T03:41:43Z Brozo: I want Korean for english speakers
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2015-06-09T03:43:11Z beach: Fare: Oh, are you planning to learn more?
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2015-06-09T03:46:31Z JuanitoJons: Hello I have sbcl version 2:1.2.12-1, and I have created a simple function   http://paste.lisp.org/display/149440, into the top-level works ok, but the same function in a file when  I try to redefine the function I get an error.
2015-06-09T03:47:59Z JuanitoJons: the slime command is C-c C-c
2015-06-09T03:48:14Z pillton: I think this problem is fixed in the latest version of SLIME.
2015-06-09T03:48:24Z Fare: beach: eventually
2015-06-09T03:48:47Z JuanitoJons: I have update by quicklisp
2015-06-09T03:48:57Z Fare: has anyone got an opinion on sly vs slime ?
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2015-06-09T03:49:44Z Zhivago: Brozo: You might find lang-8 useful for Korean.
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2015-06-09T03:50:23Z pillton: JuanitoJons: Is it version 2.14?
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2015-06-09T03:51:35Z JuanitoJons: pillton: not, is  debian sbcl 2:1.2.12-1, is the last sbcl version.
2015-06-09T03:52:07Z pillton: JuanitoJons: Sorry. Is your version of SLIME 2.14?
2015-06-09T03:52:33Z JuanitoJons: pillton: let me check.
2015-06-09T03:53:04Z pillton: JuanitoJons: The other alternative is to use SBCL 1.2.11 and wait for 1.2.13.
2015-06-09T03:53:46Z JuanitoJons: pillton: the version is slime-2.13
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2015-06-09T03:57:54Z JuanitoJons: pillton: thank you.
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2015-06-09T04:03:21Z pillton: JuanitoJons: No worries. There may be a better alternative that I am not aware of.
2015-06-09T04:06:39Z beach needs to understand about CALL-METHOD and MAKE-METHOD.
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2015-06-09T04:10:55Z theos: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_call_m.htm
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2015-06-09T04:21:28Z beach: CALL-METHOD and MAKE-METHOD represent some of the few cases where the authors of the Common Lisp standards document had something in mind, but didn't do a very good job communicating what it was.
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2015-06-09T04:22:26Z beach: So, basically, one has to keep guessing until the hypothesis makes sense while reading the Common Lisp HyperSpec page.
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2015-06-09T04:23:17Z Bike: i think they're only in method combinations anyway.
2015-06-09T04:24:21Z beach: Yes, and that is what I am implementing.
2015-06-09T04:25:25Z beach: Since they are LOCAL macros, I need to understand what form would introduce them.
2015-06-09T04:26:05Z Bike: let me see, i looked it up once...
2015-06-09T04:27:33Z Bike: sbcl does a bunch of non macroy things with it, how bout that
2015-06-09T04:28:15Z beach: SBCL CLOS is PCL-based, so it might be from PCL.
2015-06-09T04:28:25Z Bike: a 2006 comment says "This is wrong. Very wrong"
2015-06-09T04:28:34Z beach: Heh!
2015-06-09T04:29:10Z beach: This is why I try first to understand what the specification means.  As opposed to starting by looking at source code.
2015-06-09T04:29:55Z Bike: i'm dumb, so i need examples
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2015-06-09T04:31:10Z Bike: sbcl isn't the best for that, since pcl is a horrid mess
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2015-06-09T04:32:33Z pillton: Is it make-method-lambda?
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2015-06-09T04:33:34Z beach: That would be my guess.
2015-06-09T04:33:40Z Zhivago: I think that were I designing CLOS today, I'd remove multiple dispatch, and have it based on curried single-dispatchers.
2015-06-09T04:34:49Z Zhivago: Given extensible single dispatchers it would all be a lot simpler and more flexible.
2015-06-09T04:34:56Z Bike: now i'm not even sure it's actually a local macro. blaaaaah
2015-06-09T04:35:34Z Zhivago: You could get rid of methods, for one. :)
2015-06-09T04:35:48Z pillton: beach: It certainly seems that way with my code.
2015-06-09T04:36:09Z jasom: beach: re: laptop with dinky RAM, I hear they invented something called "virtual memory" that lets you swap core to magnetic storage.  It's all the rage these days.
2015-06-09T04:36:24Z pillton: beach: "My code" meaning my problem which programmatically creates methods.
2015-06-09T04:36:31Z White_Flame: it's also all the rage-inducing these days
2015-06-09T04:36:50Z Zhivago: jasom: Particularly with SSD.
2015-06-09T04:37:07Z beach: jasom: Sure.
2015-06-09T04:37:18Z jasom: boot-strapping clasp took something like 12GB of ram at one point, and I built it on two machines with 4 and 8 gb respectively
2015-06-09T04:37:19Z beach: jasom: I suspect I would be swamped by swapping though.
2015-06-09T04:37:52Z jasom: though I did get hit by overcommit the first-time when I had a parellel build enabled
2015-06-09T04:38:07Z beach: pillton: I am going to use that as a hypothesis and see how that works out.  Thanks.
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2015-06-09T04:39:27Z jasom: Bike: I find closette to be more readable than pcl (not surprising since I think the former was made specifically for didactic purposes)
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2015-06-09T04:39:47Z beach: jasom: I will keep that in mind.  Since I rarely use the dinky laptop, my motivation is only moderate.
2015-06-09T04:39:51Z Bike: yeah, i just don't have M-. for closette
2015-06-09T04:40:33Z jasom: beach: well ~3GB is the limit for 32-bit anyway...
2015-06-09T04:41:50Z beach: Oh, right you are.  That might not be enough.
2015-06-09T04:42:05Z pillton: beach: http://www.alu.org/mop/dictionary.html#make-method-lambda
2015-06-09T04:42:30Z beach: mop m-m-l
2015-06-09T04:42:31Z specbot: make-method-lambda: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/make-method-lambda.html
2015-06-09T04:43:04Z pillton: beach: Oh my apologies. I have misread an example.
2015-06-09T04:43:57Z beach: Oh. :(
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2015-06-09T04:46:23Z Bike: i think sbcl actually has a pseudo-compiler that runs through results from method combinations dealing with call-method.
2015-06-09T04:46:27Z Bike: that's enough pcl for one night, i think
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2015-06-09T04:47:15Z beach: Bike: Yes, that I think I saw at some point.  Presumably to know whether the standard signature with a list of next methods is required.
2015-06-09T04:47:51Z Bike: i wonder if call-method is actually a local macro or not, hrm
2015-06-09T04:48:34Z beach: I don't think it is required to be.
2015-06-09T04:48:53Z beach: The Common Lisp HyperSpec page says that it is unspecified whether it is fbound in the global environment.
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2015-06-09T04:52:22Z Bike: nope, no local macro.
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2015-06-09T04:59:25Z Bike: i must have been thinking of ccl, which does actually define a local macro
2015-06-09T05:00:29Z pjb: jasom: http://aegis.sourceforge.net/auug97.pdf
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2015-06-09T05:04:25Z pjb: jasom: 0 doesn't have two square roots.
2015-06-09T05:04:38Z Bike: sure it does! zero, and then zero again
2015-06-09T05:05:26Z beach: Seriously guys?  Are you going to argue about this now?
2015-06-09T05:05:42Z Bike: nah
2015-06-09T05:05:58Z Bike: anyway, ccl's is in lib/method-combination if you wanna take a look
2015-06-09T05:06:20Z beach: Great!  Thanks!
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2015-06-09T05:08:32Z beach: So if it is not local, it must always have the same definition.  That also helps in order to understand the thinking of the spec authors.
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2015-06-09T05:42:52Z beach: Hmm, in fact, the changes I am thinking of making to the SICL bootstrapping process will likely consume even more memory.
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2015-06-09T05:45:03Z beach: The main problem, I think, is that when I translate HIR to Common Lisp and then let the host Common Lisp compiler work on the result, the resulting native code is very big.
2015-06-09T05:46:56Z beach: I am thinking this because the main time spent during bootstrapping is in the register-allocation phase of the SBCL compiler.
2015-06-09T05:48:09Z ggole: Maybe you have lots of temporaries
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2015-06-09T05:48:24Z beach: Yes, that is the problem.
2015-06-09T05:48:34Z beach: The HIR code contains lots and lots of temporaries.
2015-06-09T05:48:45Z beach: I could do a pre-pass and eliminate most of them.
2015-06-09T05:49:30Z ggole: Some compilers use graph colouring allocators that represent the interference graph with a bitset that has an row for each temporary vs each temporary, eg, O(n^2) space
2015-06-09T05:49:37Z ggole: Dunno if SBCL is one of those, though
2015-06-09T05:49:51Z beach: Ah, interesting idea.
2015-06-09T05:50:03Z Fare: beach: what's hogging memory in SICL?
2015-06-09T05:50:33Z beach: Fare: It is not in SICL itself.  It is just during bootstrapping.
2015-06-09T05:50:50Z Fare: what about (1) using SBCL in a mode that has less aggressive optimizations
2015-06-09T05:50:58Z Fare: except in critical pieces of code
2015-06-09T05:51:23Z beach: Oh, I always do (SPEED 0) (SPACE 0)
2015-06-09T05:51:38Z beach: Fare: Again, it is not in the final SICL code.
2015-06-09T05:51:58Z Fare: (2) have a pass inline away most of your temporaries, and/or prevent any inlining and keeping each function body small
2015-06-09T05:52:11Z beach: Because if the way I do the bootstrapping by compiling Common Lisp code to HIR and then HIR to (very stupid) Common Lisp, I think it is the resulting host code that is big.
2015-06-09T05:52:33Z Zhivago: How long is a long time in this context?
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2015-06-09T05:52:56Z Fare: what about interpreting the HIR during bootstrap instead of compiling to stupid CL?
2015-06-09T05:53:09Z beach: Not *that* long.  Including pass 2 takes around 15 minutes.
2015-06-09T05:53:23Z Zhivago: Then I suggest not caring, or getting a bigger machine.
2015-06-09T05:53:24Z beach: Fare: Yeah, that's a possibility.
2015-06-09T05:53:33Z beach: Zhivago: I fully agree.
2015-06-09T05:54:12Z beach: On my desktop machine, things work sufficiently well that I don't have to care.
2015-06-09T05:54:13Z White_Flame: is that on your laptop?  how fast on your desktop?
2015-06-09T05:54:21Z White_Flame: oknm :)
2015-06-09T05:54:25Z beach: No, that's on the desktop.
2015-06-09T05:54:36Z beach: On the laptop, I run out of memory.
2015-06-09T05:54:37Z Fare: nity nite
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2015-06-09T05:54:46Z White_Flame: ah
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2015-06-09T06:22:45Z otsotsots: good morning lisp! (using common lisp, and being a semi-noob) I try to parse a timestring which can look both like "4-6-2015 20:25" AND "15-11-2014 12:23". I am using the local-time lib from quicklisp, but any other solution is fine. How do I go about? Just using subseq to picking out the correct parts seems bug-prone given the changing size of the string.... suggestions?
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2015-06-09T06:26:20Z akkad: split on -?
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2015-06-09T06:28:15Z pillton: A state machine.
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2015-06-09T06:29:10Z otsotsots: akkad: split date-parts and feed them to local-time separately? sounds so easy im slightly embaressed. will try it that way. brb.
2015-06-09T06:29:14Z beach: otsotsots: That, or you can use POSITION to find the separators.
2015-06-09T06:30:17Z otsotsots: beach: yes that sounds like a twist on the same solution. TY you both, ill see what ill get to work.
2015-06-09T06:30:45Z H4ns: otsotsots: i'd use a regular expression, seems straightforward
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2015-06-09T06:34:49Z otsotsots: The curse of lisp in a nutshell: paralysis of choice! :)
2015-06-09T06:35:22Z H4ns: otsotsots: a more capable date parsing library is just missing, i'd say.
2015-06-09T06:35:24Z otsotsots: (obviously it is not a curse, but it is a hurdle for people like me to get past before we get our own "style" of solving problems)
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2015-06-09T06:39:29Z otsotsots: and in all fairness there are plenty of option for local-time. im just yet unsure whether it is the package or I am the limiting factor. ill be back.
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2015-06-09T07:12:38Z standoo: hello
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2015-06-09T07:16:27Z beach: Hello standoo.
2015-06-09T07:16:30Z standoo: anyone here use sbcl threads?
2015-06-09T07:16:35Z standoo: beach: are you a bot?
2015-06-09T07:17:23Z beach: standoo: I am not a bot.  I prefer the term "electronically composed". :)
2015-06-09T07:17:29Z beach: standoo: No, I am a person.
2015-06-09T07:17:40Z standoo: beach: prove it
2015-06-09T07:17:53Z Zhivago: He might be a cabbage, in disguise.
2015-06-09T07:17:53Z standoo: beach: while i wait for my sbcl to compile
2015-06-09T07:17:56Z beach: I don't care whether you believe it or not, so no.
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2015-06-09T07:18:06Z standoo: beach: just kd :)
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2015-06-09T07:18:32Z beach: standoo: You might want to use Bordeaux threads to avoid depending on the implementation.
2015-06-09T07:19:03Z standoo: beach: bordeaux threads don't have the memory limit which i need
2015-06-09T07:19:09Z standoo: beach: unless i am wrong
2015-06-09T07:19:29Z beach: Possible.  I don't know.
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2015-06-09T07:24:09Z beach: Time to get to work.
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2015-06-09T07:24:48Z Pip: Zhivago, How is your AI project?
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2015-06-09T07:25:05Z standoo: Zhivago: an AI project?
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2015-06-09T07:27:27Z Zhivago: Pip: beach is doing quite well.
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2015-06-09T07:35:35Z pjb: minion: memo for  otsotsots: have a look at http://paste.lisp.org/+37BB
2015-06-09T07:35:35Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell otsotsots when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-06-09T07:35:52Z standoo: minion: help
2015-06-09T07:35:52Z minion: There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms".
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2015-06-09T07:38:13Z elderK: Hey guys.
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2015-06-09T07:38:33Z elderK: I was wondering what the best way to programmatically generate a value for a class slot if and only if that slot wasn't passed in.
2015-06-09T07:38:54Z elderK: I'd use the default-initargs and such but I need to pass parameters that ARE passed into the make-instance functio, to the function that'd generate the value for a slot.
2015-06-09T07:39:09Z elderK: Would adding a method to make-instance or initialize-instance be a bad step?
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2015-06-09T07:39:14Z pjb: elderK: (defclass c () ((slot :initform (error "Not generated!") :initarg :slot)))
2015-06-09T07:39:23Z H4ns: no, that'd be quite proper
2015-06-09T07:39:36Z pjb: it would be quite useless.
2015-06-09T07:39:45Z elderK: pjb: How does that help? It's valid for there to be no value given explicitly when calling make-instance.
2015-06-09T07:39:51Z H4ns: often, a constructor function is better than having class users directly invoke make-instance, though.
2015-06-09T07:39:57Z elderK: I agree.
2015-06-09T07:39:58Z pjb: H4ns: I publically memoed otsotsots so that YOU have a look at it too.
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2015-06-09T07:40:06Z elderK: But I want the behavior to occur for subclasses, too.
2015-06-09T07:40:20Z pjb: (declass d (c) ()) (make-instance 'd)
2015-06-09T07:40:23Z H4ns: well, then make-instance is your friend
2015-06-09T07:40:32Z pjb: still entirely useless.
2015-06-09T07:40:50Z pjb: You would never define a method on make-instance.
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2015-06-09T07:41:13Z elderK: So what would you do?
2015-06-09T07:41:44Z elderK: I don't want each subclass to have to recode the stuff to generate the value. And I don't particularly want the stuff that does it, to be visible outside of the package.
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2015-06-09T07:42:04Z H4ns: from what you wrote, i'd implement a make-instance method on the base class
2015-06-09T07:42:33Z elderK: That's what I thought'd be a good idea, too. But I'm curious as to why pjb dislikes that solution.
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2015-06-09T07:42:51Z elderK: I mean, generating the value can fail - I don't want an instance to be allocated if the value failed to generate.
2015-06-09T07:43:22Z pjb: elderK: I shown you what you should do: use  :initform !
2015-06-09T07:43:46Z H4ns: tough luck - there is no generic method that you could specialize that gets called before the instance is allocated.
2015-06-09T07:44:05Z elderK: pjb: I need to pass parameters into the function that generates the value for the slot.
2015-06-09T07:44:14Z H4ns: which is a good reason to separate instance initialization and resource allocation
2015-06-09T07:44:20Z pjb: :initform (your-function 'your-parameter)
2015-06-09T07:44:31Z elderK: THe parameters are other slot values, pjb.
2015-06-09T07:44:32Z H4ns: and i recognize that this often leads to incoherent api's and half-usable objects :(
2015-06-09T07:44:49Z pjb: elderK: then indeed you will need a method on initialize-instance.
2015-06-09T07:45:03Z pjb: You can use &key (slot nil slotp) and (if slotp …)
2015-06-09T07:45:23Z elderK: But there's no way to stop the allocation of an instance if generating the value fails?
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2015-06-09T07:45:36Z H4ns: what do you mean by "stop the allocation"?
2015-06-09T07:45:39Z elderK: Well.
2015-06-09T07:45:44Z H4ns: the instance is first allocated, then initialized.
2015-06-09T07:45:53Z elderK: Aaaah. Yes, precisely.
2015-06-09T07:46:18Z elderK: I forgot that :)
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2015-06-09T07:46:45Z H4ns: but if you signal an error during initialization, the instance will almost never be seen by anything and be garbage collected soon
2015-06-09T07:46:59Z elderK: Sweet :)
2015-06-09T07:47:24Z H4ns: if you make sure that no resources are attached to the instance during initialization, you'll not have to worry about "stopping the allocation".
2015-06-09T07:47:42Z Zhivago: You could perhaps use a :before method to abort before allocation?
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2015-06-09T07:48:05Z elderK: Wouldn't you have to place a method in allocate-instance for that, Zhivago?
2015-06-09T07:48:12Z elderK: or on make-instance itself?
2015-06-09T07:48:14Z H4ns: Zhivago: :before on what?
2015-06-09T07:49:30Z Zhivago: On the make-instance.
2015-06-09T07:49:44Z Zhivago: Then you could inspect the arguments and die in advance, if that was important to you.
2015-06-09T07:49:53Z H4ns: ah, right.
2015-06-09T07:50:06Z elderK: Zhivago: Is there anything wrong with that approach?
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2015-06-09T07:50:19Z elderK: I'm still curious as to why pjb was against having a method on make-instance?
2015-06-09T07:50:47Z Zhivago: Well, there are things like change-instance, etc.
2015-06-09T07:50:58Z elderK: Sorry to pester - and ask questions that are probably really obvious - but I'm new to CL. And I'm really trying to start using it for "Real" stuff :)
2015-06-09T07:51:05Z Zhivago: So perhaps it would work for the initial build, but not for later rejiggering.
2015-06-09T07:51:27Z pjb: elderK: already you would need not one method but two: (make-instance 'a) (make-instance (find-class 'a))
2015-06-09T07:51:39Z elderK: Why?
2015-06-09T07:51:48Z pjb: Because those two forms are equivalent.
2015-06-09T07:52:02Z elderK: Yes but wouldn't the first be implemented in terms of the second?
2015-06-09T07:52:28Z elderK: make-instance ((class standard-class))   and make-instance ((class symbol))
2015-06-09T07:52:29Z elderK: ?
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2015-06-09T07:54:17Z pjb: elderK: Yes.
2015-06-09T07:54:28Z pjb: So you would have to define it on (find-class 'a)
2015-06-09T07:54:45Z elderK: Yup.
2015-06-09T07:54:49Z pjb: It's the second in terms of the first.
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2015-06-09T07:55:50Z elderK: Zhivago: So, out of curiosity, change-class would be called if I reloaded a system say?
2015-06-09T07:55:56Z elderK: After adding a slot to the class in question?
2015-06-09T07:56:55Z Zhivago: If you re-ran the defclass, I believe so.
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2015-06-09T07:57:23Z elderK: I'll read up on that now.
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2015-06-09T07:57:26Z elderK: Thanks for your help guys.
2015-06-09T07:58:11Z pjb: elderK: no change-class is used to change the class of an instance.  Redefining the class is done by internal functions IIRC.
2015-06-09T07:59:10Z pjb: (defclass a () ()) (defclass b () ()) (class-name (class-of (change-class (make-instance 'b) 'a))) --> a
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2015-06-09T08:00:41Z elderK: Ah yes, thanks pjb.
2015-06-09T08:00:50Z elderK: I'm reading CLtL2 now about class redefinition.
2015-06-09T08:01:00Z pjb: clhs defclass
2015-06-09T08:01:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcla.htm
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2015-06-09T08:01:51Z elderK: Man, reading the specs and CLtL2, sometimes I feel like they thought of everything :)
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2015-06-09T08:04:48Z elderK: update-instance-for-redefined-class :)
2015-06-09T08:05:17Z loz1: morning friends
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2015-06-09T08:05:58Z loz1: my defsystem fails with invalid keyword :homepage
2015-06-09T08:06:12Z loz1: did anybody experience that?
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2015-06-09T08:07:52Z elderK: Nope.
2015-06-09T08:08:04Z elderK: But I think I'm misunderstanding the purpose of defsystem-depends-on.
2015-06-09T08:08:08Z pjb: I never used :homepage.
2015-06-09T08:08:23Z elderK: I was hoping to use that to pull in cffi-grovel instead of having an eval-when ... asdf:operate... block at the start of the file...
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2015-06-09T08:09:07Z elderK: Also! What's the convention regarding :documentation that spans multiple lines?
2015-06-09T08:09:27Z elderK: Is there a nice way to line it all up? Or do you just continue at the start of the next line?
2015-06-09T08:09:29Z H4ns: you mean "what is _a_ convention", i can offer a few
2015-06-09T08:09:39Z elderK: :D Okay H4ns! Hit me with them :)
2015-06-09T08:10:12Z H4ns: i meant to say that there are multiple conventions.  if in doubt, go with what emacs does by default or follow the google cl style guide
2015-06-09T08:10:13Z pjb: Perhaps it's :system-homepage ?
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2015-06-09T08:12:03Z pjb: elderK: there's an emacs convention to write a one-line summary on the first line, and a more extended documentation on the following lines.  Personnally, I just assume the first line is alligned with the following.  Sometimes, I start with a newline, so the question doesn't occur.
2015-06-09T08:12:27Z loz1: does asdf come with particular lisp implementation?
2015-06-09T08:12:33Z elderK: pjb: The opening " is on the next line? Or the content?
2015-06-09T08:12:43Z elderK: loz1: asdf comes with most implementations, afaik.
2015-06-09T08:12:51Z elderK: SBCL comes with ASDF3.something now.
2015-06-09T08:13:03Z elderK: You can get the latest ASDF online, too.
2015-06-09T08:13:08Z elderK: And use that if you need more recent features?
2015-06-09T08:13:35Z pjb: elderK: of course, if you start your docstring with a newline, you can put " on the same line as :documentation.  Otherwise it might be good to put it on the following line.
2015-06-09T08:13:36Z elderK: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Upgrading-ASDF.html#Upgrading-ASDF
2015-06-09T08:13:54Z elderK: pjb: I was meaning what do you do, preference. :)
2015-06-09T08:13:56Z pjb: elderK: really you have 800 MEGA BYTE of lisp sources to scan in ~/quicklisp to learn about usage!
2015-06-09T08:14:35Z elderK nods
2015-06-09T08:14:42Z elderK: ALso: GOOGLE has a freaking CL Convention?
2015-06-09T08:14:48Z elderK: I didn't expect that.
2015-06-09T08:14:52Z loz1: oh, i just forgot to add new sbcl to PATH
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2015-06-09T08:14:55Z pjb: I do that, :documentation " newline  or :documentation " short first line newline   or :documentation newline " long first line.
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2015-06-09T08:24:34Z Zhivago: elderK: Well, they did buy ITA ...
2015-06-09T08:26:48Z elderK: :)
2015-06-09T08:27:02Z elderK: Is there any point to using require/provide over asdf calls?
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2015-06-09T08:27:05Z elderK: like asdf/operate:load-system ?
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2015-06-09T08:35:07Z elderK: How do most of you guys define packages? Do you use defpackage or OIOPs define-package? :)
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2015-06-09T08:43:33Z splittist: elderK: how can 'most of' us answer? A quick grep through your quicklisp directory would tell you what library authors do.
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2015-06-09T08:44:48Z elderK: I don't have Quicklisp?
2015-06-09T08:45:03Z loz1: why?
2015-06-09T08:45:15Z elderK: I don't have a need for it just yet?
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2015-06-09T08:48:56Z splittist: elderK: but you are asking questions that could be answered by using quicklisp. It is pretty great.
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2015-06-09T08:59:55Z elderK: How are documentation strings merged for slots that're inherited?
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2015-06-09T09:00:09Z H4ns: elderK: they are not
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2015-06-09T09:34:13Z Baggers: Heya folks, I'm gonna be over in palo alto for a few weeks around july. Are there any good lisp meetups in that/san fran area?
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2015-06-09T09:43:57Z splittist: Baggers: it may be the wrong time of day to be asking (:
2015-06-09T09:44:42Z standoo: hello
2015-06-09T09:44:54Z standoo: looking for web frameworks anyone have something to recommend?
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2015-06-09T10:03:23Z jackdaniel: standoo: weblocks is really good, but it needs a bit of love wrt documentation
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2015-06-09T10:21:17Z Baggers: splittist: haha good point!
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2015-06-09T10:48:16Z asvil: Hi all.
2015-06-09T10:48:41Z asvil: Environment: CentOS release 6.5, sbcl 1.1.16, quicklisp, nginx, Hunchentoot, restas,   30 requests per minute, every request backend sends "http get to another server" using drakma.
2015-06-09T10:48:41Z asvil: After a week uptime usockets starts to throw timeout-error, but wget (curl) works fine. Are there something like usocket limits?
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2015-06-09T11:30:23Z H4ns: asvil: try lsof on the process, are many sockets open?
2015-06-09T11:30:45Z H4ns: asvil: is it possible that the ip address of the peer changes?
2015-06-09T11:30:53Z fe[nl]ix: same problem that Shinmera reported
2015-06-09T11:31:05Z fe[nl]ix: something doesn't close socket descriptors
2015-06-09T11:31:12Z H4ns: asvil: if connections are kept open for a long time and keepalives are enabled, it is possible that you see timeouts
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2015-06-09T11:43:28Z asvil: H4ns: lsof output contains about 20 established tcp sockets (lisp -> postgres)
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2015-06-09T11:44:47Z asvil: connection (with wich I have trouble) lives short time
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2015-06-09T11:46:31Z asvil: H4ns: I use it like `(drakma:http-request "url")` without streams or even saving results
2015-06-09T11:49:14Z asvil: fe[nl]ix: yes, I think so, but I have no results when google about sbcl drakma usocket bugs
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2015-06-09T12:02:39Z Xach: hmm
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2015-06-09T12:24:49Z flip214: asvil1: look at netstat, perhaps the RST/FIN events get lost in some way, and the lisp part still believes they are open normally
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2015-06-09T12:45:20Z H4ns: asvil1: maybe try using tcpdump to log what happens on these connections
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2015-06-09T14:17:02Z Posterdati: hi
2015-06-09T14:18:37Z Posterdati: I've got a problem with clisp 2.49 and the latest quicklisp.lisp: it hangs during installation at Fetching #<URL "http://beta.quicklisp.org/asdf/2.26/asdf.lisp">
2015-06-09T14:18:44Z Posterdati: in mips
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2015-06-09T14:26:34Z asvil1: So, the problem is in `(sb-bsd-sockets:get-host-by-name "google.com")`,  after a week uptime this form stops working
2015-06-09T14:26:53Z H4ns: what does "stops working" mean?
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2015-06-09T14:28:04Z asvil1: H4ns, it does not return
2015-06-09T14:28:51Z H4ns: sounds awful :(
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2015-06-09T14:32:16Z Xach: heh. for wigflip, i wrote my own resolver from scratch. i wonder if i would have hit this issue otherwise.
2015-06-09T14:32:29Z Xach: (i wanted strong control over the time spent resolving things)
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2015-06-09T14:42:40Z asvil1: strace on process shows that there is  something network job when I get-host-by-name, probably bug in sbcl internals
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2015-06-09T14:42:56Z H4ns: "something network job" ?
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2015-06-09T14:43:07Z hajovonta: hello
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2015-06-09T14:45:10Z asvil1: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149454
2015-06-09T14:45:17Z asvil1: H4ns: ^
2015-06-09T14:47:42Z failproofshark: hello
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2015-06-09T14:58:10Z splittist: why wouldn't you expect a "network job" when calling gethostbyname(3)? (genuinely curious)
2015-06-09T14:58:21Z splittist: asvil1: ^
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2015-06-09T15:06:20Z asvil1: splittist: because of dns
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2015-06-09T15:40:33Z hajovonta: re
2015-06-09T15:40:51Z oleo: sup
2015-06-09T15:41:53Z hajovonta: is it allowed to idle in this channel?
2015-06-09T15:42:04Z oleo: heh
2015-06-09T15:42:19Z oleo: sure
2015-06-09T15:43:07Z Xach: hajovonta: yes. most here are long-term idlers.
2015-06-09T15:43:34Z hajovonta: :)
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2015-06-09T16:15:21Z Oddity: What kind of IRC channel forbids idling?
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2015-06-09T16:20:42Z z0d: all?
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2015-06-09T16:24:58Z smokeink: (sb-ext:run-program "/usr/bin/proxychains" `("wget" ,url "-O" ,fname "--header=\"Accept: text/html\"" "--user-agent=\"Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:21.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/21.0\"")) <- is this the right way to pass --header and --user-agent to wget ?
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2015-06-09T16:27:56Z angus: smokeink: you shouldn't need the quotation marks
2015-06-09T16:29:11Z smokeink: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/14443748/run-program-to-launch-alsaplayer-in-sbcl it wants a list for the params
2015-06-09T16:30:26Z angus: "--header=Accept: text/html" instead of "--header=\"Accept: text/html\""
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2015-06-09T16:31:57Z smokeink: thanks angus
2015-06-09T16:32:20Z angus: np
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2015-06-09T17:14:12Z malice: Hello, I want to write macro that will write out slots of integer type
2015-06-09T17:14:17Z malice: Here's code: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149455
2015-06-09T17:14:34Z malice: If I write (integer-slot name1 name2) it returns list of these slots
2015-06-09T17:14:49Z malice: and I would like it to return just slots, without the list. How can I achieve that?
2015-06-09T17:16:25Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: hi
2015-06-09T17:16:45Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: finally I'm compiling ecl on mips! CI20 is a very fast board
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2015-06-09T17:17:35Z angus: malice: you can't
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2015-06-09T17:20:36Z Bike: what does "slots without the list" mean?
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2015-06-09T17:24:37Z angus: splice the list returned by the macro in the slots list
2015-06-09T17:24:42Z angus: as if using ,@
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2015-06-09T17:26:13Z jasom: malice: you'll have to return a list and splice it yourself.
2015-06-09T17:28:26Z jasom: malice: the good news is that if you're splicing it yourself, integer-slot can be a function rather than a macro
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2015-06-09T17:53:18Z kami: Good evening.
2015-06-09T17:54:44Z emaczen: I implemented a tiny object system whose current syntax for method calls looks like: (funcall object :method-name rest-args)
2015-06-09T17:55:03Z emaczen: How can I get rid of the "funcall"
2015-06-09T17:56:54Z Bike: you could use the mop and make objects funcallable-instances.
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2015-06-09T17:58:39Z digiorgi: Bike: How you make an object funcallable?
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2015-06-09T18:04:16Z emaczen: Bike: Is there a non-mop solution?
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2015-06-09T18:06:28Z oGMo: short answer: no .. you could do some terrible things though
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2015-06-09T18:07:06Z Bike: i think i was mistaken about the problem anyway.
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2015-06-09T18:12:51Z jasom: early object systems for lisp looked like (send object method-name args)
2015-06-09T18:13:14Z jasom: based off of smalltalk message-passing style OO
2015-06-09T18:13:27Z emaczen: jasom: That's essentially what I have
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2015-06-09T18:15:22Z oGMo: emaczen: you can always write a macro block that expands to a MACROLET which in turn expands to (funcall NAME ...)
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2015-06-09T18:16:19Z oGMo: or use readtables and do something objc-like .. [ob ...]
2015-06-09T18:17:11Z digiorgi: u can create a macro like WITH-OBJECT that (WITH-OBJECT (obj) (obj :method))=> (funcall object :method)
2015-06-09T18:17:45Z oGMo: but, CLOS can pretty much do everything you want and is probably faster than what you'll write, and is more idiomatic, so
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2015-06-09T18:20:37Z digiorgi: And in some implementations CLOS is coded in native code (:
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2015-06-09T18:23:59Z oGMo: digiorgi: well in many implementations CL compiles to native code, so by proxy :P
2015-06-09T18:24:38Z oGMo: that doesn't ensure it's fast though
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2015-06-09T18:25:10Z digiorgi: oGMo: true
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2015-06-09T18:29:07Z emaczen: oGMo: Yeah, it is a good experiment, and its utility is for parenscript
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2015-06-09T18:29:48Z emaczen: oGMo: What is a macro block?
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2015-06-09T18:57:29Z p_l: technically CLOS still is "message passing" of you make GFs to be messages
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2015-06-09T19:06:08Z akkad: is a fasl like an elc? where if you say (load "foo.lisp") it will load foo.fasl if it exists?
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2015-06-09T19:06:50Z oGMo: yes
2015-06-09T19:07:09Z oGMo: emaczen: a macro with a &body?
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2015-06-09T19:09:29Z oGMo: akkad: except, you shouldn't use LOAD, of course
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2015-06-09T19:11:53Z akkad: what do you recommend instead of load?
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2015-06-09T19:15:12Z oGMo: use asdf to specify your dependencies, etc
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2015-06-09T19:21:30Z digiorgi: someone used ABCL for making a applet?
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2015-06-09T20:09:15Z jasom: p_l: multiple dispatch is inherently different from message passing
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2015-06-09T20:09:22Z jasom: p_l: I would say it's a superset
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2015-06-09T20:11:17Z aerique_: XachX: didn't you have some kind of CL documentation site?
2015-06-09T20:12:13Z jasom: aerique_: I think you're thinkinf of quickdocs which isn't run by xach IIRC
2015-06-09T20:12:32Z XachX: aerique_: no
2015-06-09T20:12:52Z aerique_: jasom: that must have been it, thanks
2015-06-09T20:13:29Z schjetne: aerique_: perhaps l1sp.org?
2015-06-09T20:14:21Z aerique_: schjetne: ah that, was actually it!  thanks all, quickdocs looks nice as well
2015-06-09T20:15:19Z aerique_: I could not find them on Cliki, but perhaps I didn't look good enough
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2015-06-09T20:35:20Z p_l: jasom: well, if you agree that messages can be sent to "combined objects", and that your main implementation of that is through some handler external to object...
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2015-06-09T21:38:37Z fourier: If I use one-file-per-packages strategy, is where a way to automatically update dependencies in .asd file when I add something to the :use option of the package?
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2015-06-09T21:41:08Z PuercoPop: fourier: yes, using package-inferred-systems, sec
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2015-06-09T21:41:55Z PuercoPop: http://davazp.net/2014/11/26/modern-library-with-asdf-and-package-inferred-system.html
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2015-06-09T21:42:51Z fourier: wow great! thanks!
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2015-06-09T22:34:07Z Bike: anyone happen to know where i could find someone (i think naggum did at least once) talking about replacing tagged pointers with partioning memory by type?
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2015-06-09T22:41:03Z jasom: Bike: high-bit tagging or BIBOP
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2015-06-09T22:42:32Z Bike: cute
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2015-06-09T22:42:58Z jasom: Bike: they both partition memory by type, but are distinct strategies
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2015-06-09T22:47:15Z jasom: Note that high-bit tagging will be limited on some x86-64 bit systems, since they don't have true 64-bit addresses you only get 1 high bit for tagging purposes
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2015-06-09T22:48:13Z spyrosoft: How do you delist a list? If a function expects &rest, how do you supply it with the contents of a list?
2015-06-09T22:48:29Z jasom: clhs apply
2015-06-09T22:48:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm
2015-06-09T22:48:33Z jasom: specbot: see that link
2015-06-09T22:48:39Z jasom: spyrosoft: see that link
2015-06-09T22:48:52Z p_l: jasom: also, there's absolutely no guarantee at all about how many bits you can steal
2015-06-09T22:49:13Z p_l: some intel cpus will only look at 40 bits, some at 48
2015-06-09T22:49:36Z jasom: I think all AMD is 48, but I might be misremembering
2015-06-09T22:49:57Z p_l: and while highest bit is traditionally used to differentiate between supervisor and userland, it's not actually specified to be such
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2015-06-09T22:50:06Z p_l: jasom: yes, all AMD cpus do >=48bit
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2015-06-09T22:50:38Z jasom: p_l: the highest bit is allowed to be used; I always assumed that was for systems that put stack at the top of the address space and grows down
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2015-06-09T22:51:38Z p_l: jasom: the highest bit is *already* used - by kernel
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2015-06-09T22:52:14Z jasom: p_l: I didn't know that; what does the kernel need with virtual addresses?
2015-06-09T22:52:14Z p_l: (which works with the "ignore upper bits" by virtue of 2's complement)
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2015-06-09T22:52:50Z p_l: jasom: when you enter kernel mode (by syscall) you do NOT switch virtual memory mapping
2015-06-09T22:53:04Z Bike: thanks
2015-06-09T22:53:11Z p_l: and I believe sometimes you might even get memory mapped from there to userland
2015-06-09T22:53:13Z jasom: ah, so they use it kind of like the old ARM FCSE
2015-06-09T22:53:43Z p_l: jasom: making OS use upper half is old tendency (high-moby low-moby?)
2015-06-09T22:53:48Z jasom: so if I try to mmap something to the top-half of my address space, it will likely fail?
2015-06-09T22:54:15Z p_l: jasom: if you try to actually specify upper-half of address space? yes
2015-06-09T22:54:35Z jasom: good to know; so really I only have 39 bits to work with guaranteed
2015-06-09T22:54:36Z p_l: jasom: it's why on 32bit kernels you can't allocate >2G of memory tops
2015-06-09T22:54:58Z spyrosoft: Like a charm! Thanks.
2015-06-09T22:55:22Z jasom: 512GB should be enough for anybody!
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2015-06-09T22:56:19Z jasom just noticed that RAM sizes have stagnated a bit recently.  I had a laptop with 4GB of RAM almost a decade ago, and yet my workstation only has 16GB of RAM
2015-06-09T22:57:22Z jasom needs a new motherboard; the current one only supports 4x4 if I want ECC
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2015-06-09T23:03:41Z Shinmera: Does perchance anyone know how to circumvent the following CL+SSL error? "error:14077438:SSL routines:SSL23_GET_SERVER_HELLO:tlsv1 alert internal error"
2015-06-09T23:04:10Z Shinmera: What I can find per google indicates an OpenSSL bug, but I can't tell how to get a workaround.
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2015-06-09T23:07:14Z pjb: Update OpenSSL library?
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2015-06-09T23:08:31Z Shinmera: I'll try that, I suppose.
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2015-06-09T23:13:07Z nf7: I've read that Lisp is apparently particular good at AI type stuff. Why is that?
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2015-06-09T23:14:58Z pjb: nf7: because it's a symbolic programming language, therefore you can easily write symbolic AI programs.  It was designed for that by John McCarthy at the AILabs.
2015-06-09T23:15:11Z dkcl: nf7: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/130475/why-is-lisp-used-for-ai
2015-06-09T23:15:53Z pjb: cf. books "Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp" and "Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach"  http://aima.cs.berkeley.edu
2015-06-09T23:16:07Z nf7: thanks!
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2015-06-09T23:17:50Z H4ns: why don't you ask that question where you've seen the claim?
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2015-06-09T23:18:27Z H4ns: i mean, every friggin day people come here and ask this question, but never ever will you see someone here claim that lisp is particularly great for ai
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2015-06-09T23:19:25Z H4ns: this channel, as you may or may have noted, is about common lisp.  we discuss a specific lisp dialect here, discussions about general claims about lisp in general are not welcome.  try #lispcafe
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2015-06-09T23:19:38Z H4ns: thank you.
2015-06-09T23:19:40Z nf7: I read it on the Wikipedia article for Lisp: "[Lisp] quickly became the favored programming language for artificial intelligence research".
2015-06-09T23:19:56Z H4ns: nf7: #lispcafe
2015-06-09T23:20:17Z H4ns: this channel is not the "we explain the wikipedia article on lisp"-channel
2015-06-09T23:20:26Z jaykru: h4ns what is your problem?
2015-06-09T23:20:28Z nf7: What is your problem?
2015-06-09T23:20:29Z nf7: lol
2015-06-09T23:20:31Z jaykru: he's asking a simple question
2015-06-09T23:20:35Z H4ns: i don't have a problem.
2015-06-09T23:20:37Z nf7: Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed today.
2015-06-09T23:20:45Z jaykru: Clearly you do if you're being this particular about a small question
2015-06-09T23:20:56Z nf7: pjb: Thanks for the information.
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2015-06-09T23:21:01Z jaykru: that would no doubt spurn discussion about Common Lisp
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2015-06-09T23:21:15Z H4ns: no doubt
2015-06-09T23:21:24Z jaykru: jesus christ
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2015-06-09T23:22:11Z H4ns: hah!  it is always the idlers and sleepers who speak up when someone complains about off-topic discussions :D
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2015-06-09T23:24:26Z jaykru: Your definition of on-topic is so incredibly slim that I felt the need to chime in
2015-06-09T23:24:49Z jaykru: I don't normally speak up because I have a limited expertise in Common Lisp, usually I don't know enough about the topic at hand to speak with any degree of authority
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2015-06-09T23:25:01Z pjb: H4ns: We can assume that "AI" is positive and "lisp good for AI" can motivate people to learn lisp.  It was the case for me, for example.  If once they become lispers they don't write AI programs, it doesn't matter.
2015-06-09T23:25:42Z pjb: H4ns: therefore it would be counter productive to contradict people asking/believing that lisp is good for AI.  Our job here is to just give them a reason to learn lisp!
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2015-06-09T23:26:27Z pjb: H4ns: on the other hand, you can provide a lot of books and papers about writing AI programs using lisp, starting with PAIP, but there are tens of other references.
2015-06-09T23:27:31Z `dwr: I think this reminds me of when stackoverflow questions get rated as having too vague or opinion-based of an answer
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2015-06-09T23:27:37Z `dwr: not that i really have an opinion here ;p
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2015-06-09T23:29:16Z pjb: Well, we cannot go into the past, and change the brains of askers, so they ask "How do I write this AI program in Lisp?" instead of "[Why] Is Lisp good for AI programming?
2015-06-09T23:29:19Z pjb: "
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2015-06-09T23:45:00Z drmeister: Hey folks.  A couple of months ago someone posted a link for a project where someone else had written Scheme code to parse DWARF debugging information.
2015-06-09T23:45:20Z drmeister: This is basically a cry into the wilderness - does the above trigger anyones memory?
2015-06-09T23:47:27Z p_l: drmeister: https://wingolog.org/archives/2012/06/19/dltool-mines-dwarf ?
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2015-06-09T23:49:28Z drmeister: That looks like it. Thank you
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2015-06-09T23:49:36Z p_l: np
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2015-06-09T23:52:26Z spyrosoft: This is fun: https://notabug.org/koz.ross/awesome-cl
2015-06-09T23:52:53Z pjb: nf7: more references at http://cliki.net/AI
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2015-06-09T23:56:58Z spyrosoft: Since sort is destructive, why doesn't it just set the variable to the final result?
2015-06-09T23:57:19Z Shinmera: It's not a macro, so it cannot.
2015-06-09T23:57:39Z pjb: spyrosoft: just like qsort(3) cannot "just set the variable" in C.
2015-06-09T23:57:51Z pjb: spyrosoft: Lisp like C only has pass-by-value arguments.
2015-06-09T23:58:33Z spyrosoft: If that were true, the original variable would not be mutated, correct?
2015-06-09T23:58:41Z spyrosoft: It would pass a copy?
2015-06-09T23:58:50Z Shinmera: It passes a copy of the reference.
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2015-06-09T23:59:25Z pjb: In pass-by-value, the value of the argument is indeed copied to the parameter.
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2015-06-10T00:00:20Z pjb: (let ((a 42)) (f a))  The value of a is 42 is copied to the parameter of f.  f cannot modify a (therefore we can infer things without having to look at f, such as the value of a is 42 after the call to f, which is a good thing).
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2015-06-10T00:01:24Z pjb: (let ((a "hello") (f a)) The value of A is a reference to a string containing the caracters #\h #\e #\l #\l #\o, and this reference is copied to the parameter of f.  f cannot modify A, and should not modify the string, since it's a literal string that must be assumed non-mutable.
2015-06-10T00:02:14Z pillton: Any function F cannot modify the binding of A.
2015-06-10T00:02:17Z spyrosoft: So in the process of sorting, the head of the list referenced is lost?
2015-06-10T00:02:36Z pjb: (let ((a (copy-seq "hello"))) (f a)) The value of A is a reference to a string containing the caracters #\h #\e #\l #\l #\o, and this reference is copied to the parameter of f.  f cannot modify A, and MAY modify the string, since it's a mutable object.  After the call to f, A still refers to the same string, but now it may contain the caracters #\w #\o #\r #\l #\d instead.
2015-06-10T00:02:41Z pillton: Any function F can modify the object bound to A.
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2015-06-10T00:02:57Z pjb: if it's a mutable object.
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2015-06-10T00:03:35Z pillton: The function F wouldn't exist in that case.
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2015-06-10T00:05:19Z spyrosoft: Which makes it seem like it is possible to swap out the car and cons of the original reference, resulting in the sorted array.
2015-06-10T00:05:30Z spyrosoft: sorry
2015-06-10T00:05:32Z spyrosoft: car and cdr
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2015-06-10T00:06:19Z jasom: spyrosoft: it is possible, but that's not what the spec requires
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2015-06-10T00:06:40Z spyrosoft: Is this for speed reasons?
2015-06-10T00:07:06Z jasom: spyrosoft: in general you will write: (let ((foo (do-something bar))) ...) whether or not do-something is destructive on bar.
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2015-06-10T00:08:34Z jasom: spyrosoft: I don't know the reason behind it, but it's true of most of the standard library: you use the result of the function, rather than relying on the function to mutate its parameter.  For performance reasons, some functions may mutate their parameter in an unspecified way.
2015-06-10T00:08:58Z jasom: sort is one of the few (maybe the only?) that doesn't come in both a non-modifying and modifying version.
2015-06-10T00:09:11Z pillton: spyrosoft: I don't know if it is for performance reasons but there are historical reasons that also need to be considered.
2015-06-10T00:09:37Z `dwr`: when doing tree manipulations it's a lot faster if you are free to change cdrs in the original tree
2015-06-10T00:09:44Z jasom: spyrosoft: see e.g. NCONC and APPEND
2015-06-10T00:10:22Z spyrosoft: Yes! Historical reasons. I'm really curious what they are.
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2015-06-10T00:10:24Z jasom: the interface for both nconc and append is identical: you use the result of the function.  It's just that nconc may mutate its arguments
2015-06-10T00:11:13Z pjb: spyrosoft: clisp does that.  But it lets you write non-conforming code, so it's not so good.
2015-06-10T00:12:11Z spyrosoft: pjb: Oh, you mean it makes your code non-portable?
2015-06-10T00:12:40Z pjb: spyrosoft: notice that clisp tries to maintain the first and last cons cell, but it may reorder the cells in the middle, so you still have the problem if you keep references to the middle of the list.
2015-06-10T00:12:57Z pjb: spyrosoft: yes, it makes your code non portable.  non-conforming is the technical term.
2015-06-10T00:13:08Z spyrosoft: Ah, that makes sense. Thanks, pjb.
2015-06-10T00:13:13Z pjb: Just remember to write: (setf seq (sort seq order))
2015-06-10T00:13:41Z pjb: Of course, the setf is useless if you are returning the result of sort, which is often the case.
2015-06-10T00:14:03Z pjb: (defun f (seq) (post-process (sort (pre-process seq) order)))
2015-06-10T00:14:13Z spyrosoft: Wait, since sort is destructive, doesn't that mess with the inner cells?
2015-06-10T00:14:27Z pjb: Yes. In this case, it makes f destructive.
2015-06-10T00:14:40Z Quadrescence: But it's OK if PRE-PROCESS makes a copy!
2015-06-10T00:14:46Z pjb: or not, depending on pre-process actually, yes.
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2015-06-10T00:18:21Z pillton: spyrosoft: The "common" in common lisp is essentially a reminder that the common lisp standard was created due to a need to unify a number of different implementations of lisp.
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2015-06-10T00:44:11Z digiorgi: PuercoPop: is your site? Is cool i finally understood the asdf inferred system (:
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2015-06-10T00:45:21Z digiorgi: PuercoPop: if is your site you also have coleslaw to generate it with a pure common lisp static website generator.
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2015-06-10T01:06:05Z PuercoPop: digiorgi: no, it is the site of davazp, of JSCL fame.
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2015-06-10T01:24:27Z nyef: Why is it that shopping for stuff online is so hard at times? "I need a graphics card for an SGI fuel" -- easy. "I need a stereo USB headset with microphone" -- nobody's search engine actually does this.
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2015-06-10T01:25:22Z nyef: "I need a shirt, this neck size, this sleeve length, with a pocket." -- nobody's search selector covers pockets.
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2015-06-10T01:26:38Z pillton: We have already covered lisp and AI today.
2015-06-10T01:26:53Z digiorgi: nyef: for usb stereo look at kranken headsets
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2015-06-10T02:12:51Z nyef: I'm finally trying this ASDF package-inferred-system thing. I know that my existing code requires CLX, but doesn't include any dependency on :xlib in the package definitions. How should I go about making sure that CLX is loaded before any of my files are compiled or loaded?
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2015-06-10T02:30:38Z nyef: Okay, new question. How do I figure out which of my source files didn't get built?
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2015-06-10T02:33:41Z pjb: nyef: that's because most of data input into the internet is still input manually by humans.  Once you have data input by robots (google cars for street views, robots for shopping, etc), you will get "better" data, and possibly even personalized data.
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2015-06-10T02:37:08Z pjb: http://gnustep.org/
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2015-06-10T02:41:24Z nyef: Okay, definitely now need some way to tell ASDF to load :CLX before it loads my little toy.
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2015-06-10T03:11:09Z nyef: ... If I have two package-inferred-systems, and packages in system two refer to packages in system one, will ASDF load all of system one, or just the referenced packages?
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2015-06-10T03:55:01Z nyef: Okay, I can now fire up SBCL, issue (require :nq-clim), and I get an environment which will build and run my "sample" program.
2015-06-10T03:55:05Z nyef: Progress!
2015-06-10T03:55:12Z Quadrescence: nice
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2015-06-10T04:05:18Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-06-10T04:05:29Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2015-06-10T04:06:35Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-06-10T04:08:19Z nyef: beach: Progress on NQ-CLIM today. As of about fifteen minutes ago, I pushed an update to use ASDF for the build system.
2015-06-10T04:09:00Z aeth: what's nq-clim?
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2015-06-10T04:09:11Z aeth: I know the 'clim' part
2015-06-10T04:09:17Z nyef: aeth: "Not Quite CLIM".
2015-06-10T04:09:22Z aeth: ah
2015-06-10T04:09:42Z beach: nyef: That's great news.
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2015-06-10T04:12:43Z nyef: I still haven't done enough of the survey of current implementation vs. the spec to be able to do any real development, but getting the build system somewhat more sorted is a good step.
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2015-06-10T04:13:28Z beach: Yes, and it is exciting that you started working on it again.
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2015-06-10T04:14:36Z nyef: Well, it's about time it got some attention. But so many other things basically ate my brain for the past several months.
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2015-06-10T04:15:32Z beach: It happens.
2015-06-10T04:17:16Z beach: nyef: So you went to the talk by drmeister?
2015-06-10T04:17:36Z nyef: Yes. Very interesting.
2015-06-10T04:17:43Z beach: Good!
2015-06-10T04:18:08Z nyef: The lisp bits, too. (-:
2015-06-10T04:18:15Z beach: Heh!
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2015-06-10T04:22:02Z drmeister: Hello
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2015-06-10T04:22:18Z beach: Hello drmeister
2015-06-10T04:22:27Z beach: So, are you happy with the talk?
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2015-06-10T04:31:11Z kami: Good morning.
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2015-06-10T04:34:46Z beach: Hello kami.
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2015-06-10T04:42:54Z drmeister: beach: Yes, I think it went well, but I haven't seen it yet.
2015-06-10T04:43:35Z theos: link?
2015-06-10T04:43:47Z drmeister: No link yet.
2015-06-10T04:44:05Z theos: :/
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2015-06-10T04:44:41Z beach: drmeister: Did you have the opportunity to discuss with some people?
2015-06-10T04:45:04Z drmeister: Yes, I spent about 6 hours there.  I'm going back for lunch tomorrow.
2015-06-10T04:45:26Z beach: Oh, OK.  So I should put up the Cleavir documentation then?
2015-06-10T04:45:37Z beach: Hold on...
2015-06-10T04:45:50Z drmeister: That would be great. I might get an opportunity to show them again tomorrow.
2015-06-10T04:46:01Z drmeister: To outline what needs to be done next.
2015-06-10T04:47:24Z drmeister: When I try to run "make" in the Cleavir/Documentation directory it just hangs.  Even "make -n" doesn't print anything.  I haven't seen make do that before.  Any ideas?
2015-06-10T04:47:57Z beach: Not really no.  Works fine here.
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2015-06-10T04:48:20Z drmeister: Are you on linux?
2015-06-10T04:48:22Z beach: I can't put it up right now.  I'll do it somewhat later.  It should be at metamodular.com/cleavir.pdf.
2015-06-10T04:48:33Z beach: Yes, Ubuntu.
2015-06-10T04:48:43Z drmeister: Ok.
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2015-06-10T04:52:09Z drmeister: I'm working on getting cclasp running fully, now that I've got  to that point.  It appears that Cleavir lexical environments are showing up as arguments to cleavir-environment:eval
2015-06-10T04:52:19Z drmeister: Should that be able to happen?
2015-06-10T04:52:28Z drmeister: If so, what do I do with them?
2015-06-10T04:53:05Z drmeister: I'm just replicating it now
2015-06-10T04:53:41Z beach: I don't remember.  Let me have a look.
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2015-06-10T04:58:44Z beach: drmeister: The second argument should not be a local environment, but the first one certainly can be.
2015-06-10T04:59:21Z beach: Sorry, the second environment argument should not be a local environment, but the first one can be.
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2015-06-10T04:59:39Z beach: The thing to do then is indicated in the comment in eval.lisp.
2015-06-10T04:59:57Z drmeister: (defmethod cleavir-environment:eval (form env (dispatch-env clasp-global-environment))
2015-06-10T05:00:16Z drmeister: The first argument is a form.
2015-06-10T05:00:28Z beach: Sorry, the second environment argument should not be a local environment, but the first one can be.
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2015-06-10T05:00:41Z beach: The second environment argument is the third argument.
2015-06-10T05:00:42Z drmeister: I'll check eval.lisp
2015-06-10T05:00:50Z beach: The first environment argument is the second argument.
2015-06-10T05:00:55Z drmeister: Got it.
2015-06-10T05:01:13Z beach: You call your normal compiler on the form and the environment and execute the result.
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2015-06-10T05:01:53Z beach: If you don't do that, this would explain your problem with MACROLET.
2015-06-10T05:02:13Z beach: Like, if ignore the first environment argument (the second argument).
2015-06-10T05:03:12Z drmeister: Found it, reading...
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2015-06-10T05:03:44Z drmeister: "You call your normal compiler on the form and the environment and execute the result"?
2015-06-10T05:03:59Z drmeister: I'm puzzled by that:  My normal compiler can't handle the Cleavir environment.
2015-06-10T05:04:14Z beach: Yes, you convert the form to an AST in the environment given by the first environment argument (the second argument).
2015-06-10T05:04:38Z beach: The normal compiler in this context obviously does not refer to the Cleavir compiler.
2015-06-10T05:04:45Z beach: Sorry
2015-06-10T05:04:54Z beach: The normal compiler in this context obviously does not refer to the Clasp compiler.
2015-06-10T05:05:07Z beach: Because Cleavir doesn't know anything about Clasp.
2015-06-10T05:05:47Z beach: The normal compiler is the one that converts the form to an AST in the first environment argument (the second argument).
2015-06-10T05:05:49Z drmeister: Trying to parse those last sentences.
2015-06-10T05:06:02Z spacebat`: I'm musing on a design issue, I have many different types of object to print, many that have no lisp-readable representation, so I use princ or the ~A format specifier, but I'd like different formats for different audiences, such as an admin on the repl vs a customer with a browser
2015-06-10T05:06:03Z drmeister: Ok.
2015-06-10T05:06:26Z beach: drmeister: If you ignore the first environment argument (the second argument) when you evaluate the form, this would explain why you have problems with MACROLET.
2015-06-10T05:07:25Z beach: drmeister: You need to convert the form to an AST in the environment given by the first environment argument (the second argument).
2015-06-10T05:07:42Z spacebat`: my first impulse is to use a special variable to switch the behaviour of print-object, but specials are part useful part trap, so I wonder if there's another pattern/library people use for this sort of thing (I've already considered contextL)
2015-06-10T05:08:10Z beach: drmeister: If you don't do that, then any macros introduced by MACROLET and SYMBOL-MACROLET will not be visible when the form is evaluated and you will have the problem that you showed the other day.
2015-06-10T05:08:33Z drmeister: Yes, I see that - it's the solution to the problem that is eluding me.  It sounds like I should convert the form to an AST with the environment using  generate an AST  using (cleavir-generate-ast:generate-ast form environment1 clasp-system)
2015-06-10T05:09:26Z drmeister: Is there more that I need to do to eval it?
2015-06-10T05:09:34Z beach: Yes, that's what the "normal compiler" does.
2015-06-10T05:10:00Z beach: Then you need to convert that AST to HIR and HIR to native code and execute the resulting code.
2015-06-10T05:10:15Z drmeister: Ah
2015-06-10T05:10:22Z beach: Like a normal EVAL using a normal compiler.
2015-06-10T05:11:57Z drmeister: This use of "normal" isn't communicating to me.  I thought my "normal" compiler was the one I've always been using up until now, the boostrapping one that can't handle Cleavir environments. I'll redefine "normal" to mean the Cleavir compiler.
2015-06-10T05:12:15Z beach: Cleavir doesn't refer to Clasp at all.
2015-06-10T05:12:16Z drmeister: I'm going back up and reading the last couple of minutes with that in mind.
2015-06-10T05:12:25Z drmeister: I understand.
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2015-06-10T05:14:22Z drmeister: Do I do something different (eg: compile/execute with the bootstrapping compiler if environment1 is the top-level environment or does cleavir-environment:eval always (1) generate AST (2) generate HIR (3) generate MIR (4) generate LLVM-IR (5) generate native code (6) evaluate native code).
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2015-06-10T05:16:11Z drmeister: I see now, you corrected yourself and said: "The normal compiler in this context obviously does not refer to the Clasp compiler."
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2015-06-10T05:17:08Z drmeister: Every time you said "normal" (meaning Cleavir) I thought Clasp.  That is what confused me.
2015-06-10T05:17:57Z drmeister: So  cleavir-environment:eval should (1) generate AST in environment1 (2) generate HIR (3) generate MIR (4) generate LLVM-IR (5) generate native code (6) evaluate native code)
2015-06-10T05:18:01Z beach: drmeister: Read the paragraph that starts "For the intrinsic case..."
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2015-06-10T05:19:19Z drmeister: What does intrinsic mean in this context?
2015-06-10T05:19:28Z beach: Native.
2015-06-10T05:19:34Z beach: Not cross.
2015-06-10T05:19:40Z drmeister: Got it.
2015-06-10T05:20:14Z beach: The right thing to do in every case is to convert the form to an AST using environment1.
2015-06-10T05:20:31Z drmeister: Got it, I see that now.
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2015-06-10T05:22:49Z drmeister: This paragraph in eval.lisp appears to be cut off at the end:
2015-06-10T05:22:59Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/hZeeta39/
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2015-06-10T05:23:15Z drmeister: "obtain a compiled"...
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2015-06-10T05:24:29Z beach: Right.
2015-06-10T05:24:43Z beach: I don't know how I meant the sentence to end.
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2015-06-10T05:24:55Z beach: But it is unimportant for this case.
2015-06-10T05:25:35Z drmeister: Also, I don't understand, if the "solution that always works would be to handle compile-time evaluation...". If the solution always works then how can there be the "inverse problem?"
2015-06-10T05:26:54Z beach: It works, but you will get interpreted functions in your global environment, so it might be slow.
2015-06-10T05:28:54Z drmeister: Phew, reading it again it is a little more clear to me. But without you telling me exactly what to do I think I would still not be able to come up with the right solution.
2015-06-10T05:29:08Z drmeister: I see what you are telling me now.  I'll implement what you say.
2015-06-10T05:29:55Z drmeister: There was something else you told me several weeks about that I should do to avoid recursive compilation.  Will that come up here?
2015-06-10T05:30:14Z drmeister: told me several weeks ago about...
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2015-06-10T05:31:28Z beach: I have no idea.
2015-06-10T05:31:40Z beach: Checking the logs might help.
2015-06-10T05:32:08Z drmeister: Yikes. I'll sleep on it and try to remember more details.
2015-06-10T05:32:22Z drmeister: Something about constants or literals.
2015-06-10T05:32:37Z beach: Right, ...
2015-06-10T05:32:43Z drmeister: To avoid an infinite loop of recursive compilation.
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2015-06-10T05:33:17Z beach: if you EVAL those by converting to an AST etc, then the same constant will show up again in the load-time-value, so you will call EVAL again.
2015-06-10T05:33:19Z drmeister: To test for them and just cl:eval them straight up?
2015-06-10T05:33:57Z beach: Unless CL:EVAL is the Cleavir EVAL in which case you will get an infinite compilation.
2015-06-10T05:34:45Z drmeister: No, I can use my bootstrapping compiler to eval those.  That's what I should do - correct?
2015-06-10T05:34:50Z beach: Constants don't need EVAL to be evaluated, so you don't need to call EVAL on them.
2015-06-10T05:35:05Z beach: The value of a constant is that constant.
2015-06-10T05:35:11Z drmeister: Right - ok.
2015-06-10T05:35:17Z beach: So calling EVAL would be the same as calling IDENTITY.
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2015-06-10T05:36:09Z drmeister: So I just return them?  And by them I mean anything that would become a load-time-value?
2015-06-10T05:36:44Z beach: You have two choices for the load-time-values that are used to produce your final function.
2015-06-10T05:37:08Z beach: Choice 1: Ignore what it is and call your bootstrapping compiler.  It will always do the right thing.
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2015-06-10T05:38:41Z beach: Choice 2: Analyze the form to be evaluated.  If it is something that would create an infinite compilation then handle it as a special case.  If not, it is safe to evaluate it using the "normal" method, i.e. convert to AST, to HIR, to native code, etc.  In that process, you might again be asked to supply load-time-values of course.
2015-06-10T05:39:03Z beach: This process will end when the load-time-values are so simple that they will be one of the special cases you handle.
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2015-06-10T05:40:25Z drmeister: Ok, I'll think on this and take a stab at implementing something tomorrow.
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2015-06-10T05:41:31Z drmeister: Thanks beach.
2015-06-10T05:41:39Z beach: Sure.
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2015-06-10T05:56:06Z Xof: beach, drmeister: can I distribute videos of your ELS talks?  (And can you send me your slide decks?)
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2015-06-10T06:06:54Z beach: Xof: You can definitely distribute the videos of my talks.
2015-06-10T06:07:19Z beach: Xof: How would you like the slides?  By email as PDF?
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2015-06-10T06:15:55Z Xof: that would be great, thanks
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2015-06-10T06:23:37Z pjb: spacebat: indeed. My advice would be to use a different printing method for different audiences.
2015-06-10T06:24:21Z pjb: spacebat: even dispatching on different streams for print-object wouldn't be such a good idea, since you might want to print for different audiences on the same stream.
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2015-06-10T06:24:53Z pjb: spacebat: basically, consider print-object (and therefore format ~A/~S/~W) as developper/debugging output.
2015-06-10T06:25:54Z pjb: (defmethod print-admin-representation ((object class) stream) …)  (defmethod print-user-representation ((object class) stream) …)
2015-06-10T06:26:13Z pjb: Notice that you can still hook those methods to format, with ~/
2015-06-10T06:27:29Z pjb: (defun fmt-user-representation (stream arg colon at &rest parameters) (print-user-repreentation arg stream))  (format t "~A~%~:*~/fmt-user-representation/~%~:*~/fmt-admin-representation/~%" data)
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2015-06-10T06:46:01Z beach: Xof: Slides sent to  your cantab address.  Is that OK?
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2015-06-10T06:46:53Z beach: Xof: For some reason, I couldn't get the eps graph to work on this computer, so if you want a better version, you will have to wait a week or so for the talk on :reverse t.
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2015-06-10T08:13:38Z loz1: morning
2015-06-10T08:13:53Z loz1: is it ok that clsql fails on inserting object into sqlite?
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2015-06-10T08:14:27Z loz1: on CLSQL-SYS:DATABASE-LAST-AUTO-INCREMENT-ID, no applicable method for sqlite =(
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2015-06-10T08:35:07Z oleo_: morning
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2015-06-10T08:43:50Z theos: good afternoon
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2015-06-10T09:05:26Z Shinmera: Xof: Does that mean some of the ELS videos will (soon-ish) be available online?
2015-06-10T09:06:33Z Xof: yes
2015-06-10T09:06:41Z Xof: at the moment, only the tuesday afternoon slot
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2015-06-10T09:09:14Z Shinmera: Still, great news!
2015-06-10T09:09:57Z Xof: it's slow going, sorry :-(
2015-06-10T09:10:18Z Shinmera: As long as we get the videos some day, I have no complaints.
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2015-06-10T09:21:34Z splittist marvels that, at an institution which teaches video editing - including a specialised MA - it is the poor local chair that seems to be doing it all.
2015-06-10T09:21:52Z splittist: Of course, if it's actually a grad student that is being made to work, that is something else (:
2015-06-10T09:22:07Z jeaye: +The chair typically gets the ass end of everything.
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2015-06-10T09:25:04Z flip214: In Austria there's even a song "Aana hat immer des Bummerl", meaning more or less exactly that
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2015-06-10T09:28:07Z pjb: In any case, it's difficult to sit on a chair otherwise than with one's ass.
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2015-06-10T09:43:08Z smokeink: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149512 running (main) the first time works well, all widgets are shown, but running it 2nd time the window is empty and it doesn't respond to messages (clicks,etc) , what could the problem be?
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2015-06-10T09:45:45Z malice: Hello. I wanted to use macro inside defclass, which would expand into slot specifier. Macroexpand gives output I want, but defclass signals an error. Am I missing something, or is it impossible to incorporate macro inside defclass?
2015-06-10T09:46:30Z Shinmera: smokeink: Can't reproduce
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2015-06-10T09:46:36Z Shinmera: smokeink: Are you on windows perchance?
2015-06-10T09:47:52Z smokeink: no, im on linux
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2015-06-10T09:48:54Z Shinmera: No idea what the problem is then. It works fine for me.
2015-06-10T09:49:07Z Shinmera: Are there any messages in *inferior-lisp*?
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2015-06-10T09:50:03Z smokeink: yes, running (main) the 2nd time it says QApplication::exec: Must be called from the main thread
2015-06-10T09:50:10Z Shinmera: Yes that was my guess.
2015-06-10T09:50:25Z Shinmera: You should call (main) from the REPL only
2015-06-10T09:50:28Z ferada: malice: yes, generally you would want to generate the whole defclass form with a macro if you need to generate slots
2015-06-10T09:50:35Z Shinmera: Running it with C-c C-c launches it in a separate thread every time
2015-06-10T09:50:38Z Shinmera: Which Qt doesn't like.
2015-06-10T09:50:54Z smokeink: yeah works :) cool
2015-06-10T09:51:29Z malice: That's what I thought. Thanks, ferada.
2015-06-10T09:51:30Z Shinmera: I have some ideas in my head to fix this issue by having an always available "dedicated" qapplication thread that Qtools hooks into
2015-06-10T09:51:49Z Shinmera: But for now you'll have to do with the REPL.
2015-06-10T09:52:24Z smokeink: C-c C-j is fine
2015-06-10T09:52:35Z Shinmera has lots of ideas for improvements for Qtools, but no time to work on any of them at the moment
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2015-06-10T10:04:29Z otsotsots: morning Lisp. I cannot do cl-csv:read-csv on a large batch of files that all contain one degree sign each. What is the easiest way around this? I am getting an ":UTF-8 stream decoding error on #<SB-SYS:FD-STREAM" error. Running SBCL on linux...
2015-06-10T10:04:29Z minion: otsotsots, memo from pjb: have a look at http://paste.lisp.org/+37BB
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2015-06-10T10:08:13Z angus: otsotsots: open the stream using a unibyte :external-format
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2015-06-10T10:08:36Z otsotsots: angus: will try that. TY.
2015-06-10T10:09:04Z Shinmera: Alternatively, convert the files to UTF-8.
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2015-06-10T10:13:45Z otsotsots: angus: that worked perfectly. TYVM. This way should be the simplest possible. TY shinmera for your suggestion aswell.
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2015-06-10T10:13:50Z otsotsots: #lisp delivers.
2015-06-10T10:14:04Z angus: yw
2015-06-10T10:14:40Z Shinmera: otsotsots: Converting to UTF-8 might be worthwhile in general to avoid encoding mismatches in other applications.
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2015-06-10T10:23:50Z otsotsots: shinmera: in general yes. these are files from windows software for a piece of equipment I use, so I want to deal with them as little as possible:/
2015-06-10T10:24:15Z Shinmera: Understandable.
2015-06-10T10:24:17Z pjb: otsotsots: you have to identify what encoding they're stored in.
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2015-06-10T10:24:31Z pjb: otsotsots: then you can use :external-format to specify the encoding to use to decode them.
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2015-06-10T10:33:31Z otsotsots: pjb: i can set the encoding used in "open" or equivalent, but where/how can I test the encoding with lisp?
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2015-06-10T10:34:28Z pjb: You cannot test it, because it is impossible.
2015-06-10T10:34:40Z pjb: Eg. when you have a 1-1 encoding, any 1-1 encoding is "valid".
2015-06-10T10:35:03Z ggole: otsotsots: you have to get that information from somewhere other than the file contents
2015-06-10T10:35:05Z pjb: There's no way to reject any of them (but knowing what data is in there, and using heuristics and statistics).
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2015-06-10T10:35:27Z otsotsots: good, then I only need to figure it out on a case-to-case basis. And I plan on only having this one case.
2015-06-10T10:35:42Z pjb: otsotsots: that's why in HTTP, the client and server send headers to specify the encoding accepted and the encoding used to encode the data!
2015-06-10T10:36:17Z otsotsots: make sense
2015-06-10T10:36:17Z pjb: otsotsots: you have indeed to agree with the sender of the data in one way or another upon an encoding or a way to specify the encoding, perhaps with a BOM file.
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2015-06-10T10:54:52Z drmeister: Xof: Are you online?
2015-06-10T10:56:08Z drmeister: Xof: Yes, you can distribute my talk, and yes I can get you the slides. I'll email you.
2015-06-10T10:56:45Z Xof: thank you!
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2015-06-10T11:26:52Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: hi
2015-06-10T11:27:35Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: I've got problem to compile ecl-15.3.7 on mips: dive_1.c:117:4: error: impossible constraint in ‘asm’
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2015-06-10T11:45:47Z drmeister: Xof: Where should I send them to?
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2015-06-10T11:50:06Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: that looks like gmp problem, not ecl per se
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2015-06-10T11:50:47Z jackdaniel: I've updated various libraries recently (gmp for instance), not sure if you have it on your sources, neither if it helps
2015-06-10T11:50:59Z jackdaniel: i don't have mips
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2015-06-10T11:51:41Z jackdaniel: I'd suggest building ecl with system gmp
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2015-06-10T11:59:37Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: confirmed, I had to configure with gmp options and install gmp dev packages: a distro problem...
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2015-06-10T12:00:08Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: anyway this is strange, yesterday it compiles flawlessy
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2015-06-10T12:21:41Z jackdaniel: my prophetic abilities are somehow weakened, so no idea why ;-)
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2015-06-10T12:31:02Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: compiled, alive and kicking!
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2015-06-10T12:32:04Z loz1: does anybody use clsql with sqlite?
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2015-06-10T13:07:27Z Xof: drmeister: could you send them to c.rhodes@gold.ac.uk?  Thanks
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2015-06-10T13:09:56Z dim: loz1: I used cl-sqlite
2015-06-10T13:10:36Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: what is this? --> http://paste.lisp.org/display/149524
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2015-06-10T13:11:46Z loz1: dim: why?
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2015-06-10T13:12:18Z loz1: i don't see object mappings there
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2015-06-10T13:13:29Z dim: oh I avoid object mapping like the pleague
2015-06-10T13:13:34Z dim: because it's about what it is
2015-06-10T13:14:29Z oleo: hello http://paste.lisp.org/display/149525
2015-06-10T13:14:37Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: have you checked source of warning?
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2015-06-10T13:14:58Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: how?
2015-06-10T13:15:13Z jackdaniel: emacs /
2015-06-10T13:15:13Z jackdaniel: static void print_tbuf(void) { for(int i
2015-06-10T13:15:15Z jackdaniel: nah
2015-06-10T13:15:19Z jackdaniel: emacs /home/angel/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-2.13/swank-loader.lisp
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2015-06-10T13:15:34Z Posterdati: ok let me see
2015-06-10T13:15:37Z jackdaniel: C-s No architecture RET
2015-06-10T13:15:38Z oleo: lines 403-408
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2015-06-10T13:16:09Z oleo: i'm calling maxima::dbm-read for side-effect there...
2015-06-10T13:16:47Z jackdaniel: it basically means that swank doesn't have mips as predefined architecture - issue patch with mips, or whatever is in *features* to slime
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2015-06-10T13:17:09Z oleo: if anyone can help me, i'd appreciate it very much!
2015-06-10T13:17:37Z XachX: oleo: with what?
2015-06-10T13:17:46Z oleo: with http://paste.lisp.org/display/149525
2015-06-10T13:18:29Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: It still loading hunchentoot dependecies! :)
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2015-06-10T13:19:14Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: it's not an error, just warning
2015-06-10T13:19:15Z oleo: try with input 1+1; and with input ??taylor RET there....
2015-06-10T13:19:29Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: all seems to work
2015-06-10T13:19:35Z jackdaniel: i guess it is used to compose distinct name for fas files
2015-06-10T13:19:43Z jackdaniel: names°
2015-06-10T13:19:58Z Posterdati: [package cffi]
2015-06-10T13:20:09Z Cymew: oleo: I wonder if I'm missing something? Do you have an error message?
2015-06-10T13:20:09Z Posterdati: waiting to finish
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2015-06-10T13:21:50Z oleo: Cymew: http://www.picpaste.com/pics/maxima.1433942491.png
2015-06-10T13:22:40Z Cymew: Is that an error?
2015-06-10T13:23:23Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: md5 is not complaining about md5sum-string
2015-06-10T13:23:29Z oleo: look what happens after i give a number http://www.picpaste.com/pics/maxima_1.1433942585.png
2015-06-10T13:23:31Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: good
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2015-06-10T13:24:33Z Cymew: oleo: That's more like en error description, yes. Just pasting a lump of code didn't indicate that error
2015-06-10T13:24:50Z oleo: no i don't have errors, the errors are just logic ones....
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2015-06-10T13:25:25Z Cymew: oleo: So, your error is not that the graphic output is messy? Sorry man, if you can not specify your problem, nobody can help you.
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2015-06-10T13:26:13Z Cymew: My general advice is to stay away from mcclim
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2015-06-10T13:26:19Z oleo: when i return a result all is ok, when i capture output from another stream the output is done too, but actually i want the output captured
2015-06-10T13:26:32Z oleo: and returned as a result....
2015-06-10T13:27:15Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: is it faaaast!
2015-06-10T13:27:24Z oleo: ok i ignore you then Cymew......
2015-06-10T13:27:45Z Cymew: Feel free, and I hope you can get it to work
2015-06-10T13:28:05Z Cymew: I'm too stupid for CLIM...
2015-06-10T13:28:21Z oleo: it's not about clim/mcclim.....
2015-06-10T13:28:29Z oleo: it's about stream capture.....
2015-06-10T13:29:07Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149524#1
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2015-06-10T13:30:31Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: issue patch for slime with :mipsel as one of architectures if you have time
2015-06-10T13:31:19Z jackdaniel: *architecture-features* that is
2015-06-10T13:31:21Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: modifying /home/angel/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-2.13/swank-loader.lisp ???
2015-06-10T13:31:54Z jackdaniel: yes, and make pull request, or post patch as issue on github
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2015-06-10T13:34:12Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: ok, thanks
2015-06-10T13:34:52Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: *architecture-features* is unbound
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2015-06-10T13:35:30Z jackdaniel: swank-loader::*architecture-features*
2015-06-10T13:35:46Z Posterdati: found there's no mipsel
2015-06-10T13:36:03Z smokeink: Shinmera is there any way from within qtools to change the app's name from 'argv0dummy' to something else?
2015-06-10T13:36:28Z jackdaniel: yes, you have to add entry for mipsel, prepare patch and send it to slime maintainers, so everyone can benefit from it
2015-06-10T13:36:51Z Shinmera: smokeink: (setf (q+:window-title window) "title") http://doc.qt.io/qt-4.8/qwidget.html#windowTitle-prop
2015-06-10T13:37:03Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: ok, modified
2015-06-10T13:37:26Z smokeink: not just the window title, but the whole's app name. cuz when you do alt-tab there's argv0dummy showing up :)
2015-06-10T13:37:35Z jackdaniel: I'm out, have to finish battery driver
2015-06-10T13:37:38Z jackdaniel: o/
2015-06-10T13:37:42Z smokeink: just found this, perhaps you could add it to qtools https://github.com/glv2/peercoin-calculator/blob/master/gui.lisp#L134
2015-06-10T13:37:45Z Shinmera: smokeink: Oh! Uh, I'm not sure. You'll have to check the Qt docs.
2015-06-10T13:37:52Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: for what???
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2015-06-10T13:38:02Z jackdaniel: asus transformer
2015-06-10T13:38:22Z jackdaniel: dock battery precisely, but it's offtopic
2015-06-10T13:38:33Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: ok
2015-06-10T13:38:38Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: interesting
2015-06-10T13:38:53Z Shinmera: smokeink: Maybe try http://doc.qt.io/qt-4.8/qcoreapplication.html#applicationName-prop
2015-06-10T13:39:28Z Shinmera: smokeink: so (setf (q+:application-name *qapplication*) "title")
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2015-06-10T13:39:44Z Shinmera: I can't test it right now, I'm supposed to be busy studying.
2015-06-10T13:40:02Z smokeink: tried this and it didn't work (define-initializer (main-window setup) (#_QCoreApplication::setApplicationName "aoijajsd")
2015-06-10T13:40:02Z Shinmera: Still, I'll think about how to conveniently include this into Qtools.
2015-06-10T13:40:05Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: I added :mipsel to *architecture-features* and restarted emacs and slime, it hangs at ;;; Loading "/home/angel/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-2.13/swank-loader.lisp"
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2015-06-10T13:40:44Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: polling /tmp/slime.17006 .. 700
2015-06-10T13:41:10Z Shinmera: smokeink: I'll have to get back to you later on this.
2015-06-10T13:41:46Z smokeink: it's okay Shinmera, go back to your studies :) i'll use that guys function, it works well. just thought it'd be nice to have it in qtools
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2015-06-10T13:42:03Z jackdaniel: it probably recompiles everything (new directory I guess)
2015-06-10T13:42:10Z jackdaniel: but don't know
2015-06-10T13:42:16Z Shinmera: smokeink: Sure. I'd like to know about everything that could improve Qtools.
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2015-06-10T13:42:50Z smokeink: it's my first go with QT and so far it's really enjoyable. thanks to qtools
2015-06-10T13:43:01Z Shinmera: I'm glad to hear that!
2015-06-10T13:43:46Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: yes, it is compiling like hell!
2015-06-10T13:44:26Z Posterdati: cc1
2015-06-10T13:44:32Z Shinmera: smokeink: this at least seems to suggest it should work: https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TmpNMg==
2015-06-10T13:44:37Z Posterdati: 98% cpu :)
2015-06-10T13:45:35Z smokeink: what's that screenshot of ?
2015-06-10T13:45:42Z Shinmera: my REPL
2015-06-10T13:46:17Z smokeink: it looks like a 3d game
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2015-06-10T13:46:36Z Shinmera: ?
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2015-06-10T13:47:04Z smokeink: that's what i get when i open https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TmpNMg==
2015-06-10T13:47:18Z smokeink: hah
2015-06-10T13:47:26Z smokeink: it's my irssi , it didn't copy the ==
2015-06-10T13:47:31Z Shinmera: Ah..
2015-06-10T13:47:58Z Shinmera might have to rethink the file URLs.
2015-06-10T13:48:25Z jackdaniel: nice repl :D
2015-06-10T13:50:14Z smokeink: yes in the repl it works but when i actually do alt-tab to switch to the the app's main window, it shows argv0dummy
2015-06-10T13:50:31Z Shinmera: smokeink: Hm. It might be cached upon init or something.
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2015-06-10T14:00:59Z attila_lendvai: does anyone know how to globally prohibit ASDF from reloading anything? (think of an executable core compiled somewhere and running on a machine without the sources)
2015-06-10T14:01:45Z fe[nl]ix: delete the ASDF package
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2015-06-10T14:02:34Z fe[nl]ix: or fmakunbound asdf:load-op, asdf:oos and asdf:operate
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2015-06-10T14:03:26Z attila_lendvai: but then I need to find out what makes it try to reload anything. it would lead from a file not found to an undefined function. maybe I should just debug/fix this properly...
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2015-06-10T14:05:51Z dlowe: redefine them to a function that does nothing
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2015-06-10T14:11:46Z Shinmera: smokeink: the fix for the WITH-MAIN-WINDOW is in.
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2015-06-10T14:15:27Z smokeink: awesome :)
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2015-06-10T14:20:40Z smokeink: Shinmera, i pulled the last changes but it gives me this System "qt-libs" not found , where can i get these qt-libs from
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2015-06-10T14:21:03Z Shinmera: from my github as well.
2015-06-10T14:21:46Z Shinmera: or actually
2015-06-10T14:21:49Z Shinmera: just update quicklisp
2015-06-10T14:22:00Z Shinmera: The new dist was released just today after all.
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2015-06-10T14:24:06Z attila_lendvai decides to procrastinate this issue
2015-06-10T14:24:09Z gko: http://cl-http.org:8000/ down ?
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2015-06-10T14:35:05Z XachX: It was actually released a couple days ago, but the cable company cut my house off from the network without warning and it's been a few days resolving
2015-06-10T14:35:14Z XachX: (still in progress)
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2015-06-10T14:36:22Z Shinmera: Oh dear.
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2015-06-10T14:37:55Z smokeink: Shinmera: my hello world code now gives few errors, what should i change http://paste.lisp.org/display/149528
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2015-06-10T14:38:40Z Shinmera: smokeink: you need to load :qtcore and :qtgui as well, preferably in your ASDF system.
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2015-06-10T14:39:34Z smokeink: ok, works perfectly
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2015-06-10T14:39:48Z Shinmera: That change was mostly to avoid having to load the shared libraries during compilation of Qtools.
2015-06-10T14:40:01Z Shinmera: Doing so before caused instability on some systems, resulting in premature memory faults.
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2015-06-10T14:52:01Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
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2015-06-10T14:52:16Z Shinmera: Hullo beach.
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2015-06-10T14:53:01Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-06-10T14:54:13Z smokeink: hello
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2015-06-10T15:07:05Z drmeister: Hi beach.
2015-06-10T15:07:21Z drmeister: I implemented what we talked about last night.
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2015-06-10T15:07:53Z dlowe: drmeister: I was sick and missed your talk :(
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2015-06-10T15:09:40Z drmeister: dlowe: Too bad - I'll post a link soon.
2015-06-10T15:09:44Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149529
2015-06-10T15:09:51Z dlowe: awesome. thanks.
2015-06-10T15:10:55Z drmeister: beach: The above paste is an overengineered solution to compiling/evaluating complex forms (non-atoms) with Cleavir and atoms with bbclasp.
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2015-06-10T15:12:46Z Shinmera: Blah. I just now discovered that Qtools' previous deployment strategy doesn't work unless you constrain yourself to the core and gui smoke modules.
2015-06-10T15:13:05Z Shinmera: I fixed it now, but it'll be a month before the next QL release.
2015-06-10T15:15:57Z XachX: Argh. common-lisp.net slime_latest.tgz was not updated, and I never noticed it.
2015-06-10T15:16:24Z beach: drmeister: As long as it works, I suppose it's OK.
2015-06-10T15:16:27Z XachX: luis: should i rig something up to pull from github instead? I can try to scrape the releases info or something.
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2015-06-10T15:17:24Z XachX: luis: right now I use https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/slime_latest.tar.gz
2015-06-10T15:17:30Z XachX: that has 2.13 still
2015-06-10T15:17:36Z clop: on ccl/sbcl/cmucl/clisp it seems that (eq ::foo :foo) is true.  on GCL ::foo causes an error.  anyone know if that's legal or buggy per the common lisp spec?
2015-06-10T15:18:00Z XachX: clop: undefined consequences
2015-06-10T15:18:08Z XachX: clop: hang on, i can show you where it says that
2015-06-10T15:18:22Z clop: awesome, thanks
2015-06-10T15:18:46Z XachX: http://l1sp.org/cl/2.3.5
2015-06-10T15:19:11Z XachX: clop: where it's undefined but most implementations do the same thing, sometimes you can persuade an outlier to adapt its behavior...
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2015-06-10T15:39:52Z drmeister: I'm checking it out now.
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2015-06-10T16:11:32Z cheryllium: Good morning all
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2015-06-10T16:23:56Z jasom: is it possible to list currently loaded asdf systems?
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2015-06-10T16:24:55Z jasom: ah (asdf:already-loaded-systems)
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2015-06-10T16:28:11Z jasom: suggestions for a logging library?
2015-06-10T16:28:16Z Shinmera: Verbose.
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2015-06-10T16:28:24Z Shinmera: http://shinmera.github.io/verbose/
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2015-06-10T16:28:37Z Shinmera: Otherwise, log4cl seems to be the popular choice.
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2015-06-10T16:30:37Z nyef: jasom: (defparameter *logfile* "somewhere.log") (defun log (format &rest args) (with-open-file (f *logfile* :direction :output :if-exists :append) (format f format args))), and get fancier if you need fancier.
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2015-06-10T16:35:14Z jasom discovered that log4cl sometimes executes its body multiple times
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2015-06-10T16:51:27Z Shinmera: If anyone wants to try out Halftone real quick (a CL image viewer), I uploaded pre-built linux binaries that /should/ run with no additional installation necessary outside of Qt4.8 https://github.com/Shinmera/halftone/releases/tag/1.0.0
2015-06-10T16:51:55Z Shinmera: (and you most likely already have Qt4 anyway)
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2015-06-10T16:57:09Z jasom: Shinmera: debugger invoked on a SIMPLE-ERROR in thread
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2015-06-10T16:58:20Z Shinmera: Aw man.
2015-06-10T16:58:22Z jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149534
2015-06-10T16:58:27Z jasom: That was after playing with it for a bit
2015-06-10T16:59:19Z Shinmera: Yeah, I forgot to deactivate the debugger and handle load failures.
2015-06-10T16:59:42Z Shinmera always forgets something
2015-06-10T16:59:54Z Shinmera: Still, at least it seems to work otherwise!
2015-06-10T17:01:53Z jasom: right
2015-06-10T17:01:59Z jasom: the other question is why loading the image failed
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2015-06-10T17:02:21Z jasom: hmm, xzgv doesn't like that file either
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2015-06-10T17:02:38Z jasom: hmm 0 bytes in size, that's odd
2015-06-10T17:02:50Z jasom: so not halftone's fault
2015-06-10T17:02:51Z Shinmera: Wrong file type?
2015-06-10T17:02:58Z jasom: truncated file
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2015-06-10T17:23:37Z jlarocco: Shinmera: when I exit using "File" -> "Quit" I get a message about a memory fault and the integrity of the image being compromised
2015-06-10T17:23:49Z jlarocco: to the terminal
2015-06-10T17:24:01Z dim: jasom: I'm using cl-log, happily so
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2015-06-10T17:33:20Z dim: jasom: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/utils/logs.lisp
2015-06-10T17:33:47Z dim: and also https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/utils/monitor.lisp
2015-06-10T17:34:06Z beach: drmeister: Any progress?
2015-06-10T17:34:31Z dim: because pgloader is multi-threaded, a single thread is responsible for the logging (and some more), so that e.g. CCL doesn't choke when mutliple threads are opening and writing into the same stream
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2015-06-10T17:44:26Z Shinmera: jlarocco: Yeah, that's an SBCL thing. I don't know why.
2015-06-10T17:44:47Z Shinmera: jlarocco: At that point it doesn't really matter though.
2015-06-10T17:45:16Z Shinmera: dim: Verbose does that for you out of the box
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2015-06-10T17:48:44Z jasom: Shinmera: are you using uiop:quit to exit?
2015-06-10T17:49:10Z Shinmera: Yes.
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2015-06-10T17:49:46Z jasom: that's really odd... maybe a subtle bug in commonqt
2015-06-10T17:49:52Z Shinmera: That's after the UI itself already quits, though
2015-06-10T17:50:14Z Shinmera: Closing the window or using the command just terminates Qt's main loop.
2015-06-10T17:50:39Z Shinmera: No matter whether I let the program run to its natural end or explicitly invoke quit, SBCL stalls for 60 seconds and then memory faults and exits.
2015-06-10T17:51:36Z Shinmera: Maybe it has to do with stray threads sitting around or something. I don't really know at this point as I haven't investigated thoroughly.
2015-06-10T17:51:41Z dim: Shinmera: I don't know about Verbose?
2015-06-10T17:51:53Z Shinmera: dim: http://shinmera.github.io/verbose/
2015-06-10T17:51:58Z dim: thx
2015-06-10T17:52:51Z Shinmera: I think the current version (1.2.0) just didn't quite make it into the latest quicklisp, so the docs are a tiny bit newer than the QL release.
2015-06-10T17:53:46Z dim: Shinmera: verbose looks very nice, I will have a try at it for my next project, thanks!
2015-06-10T17:54:04Z Shinmera: dim: Let me know if there's anything lacking or going badly. I appreciate all feedback!
2015-06-10T17:54:25Z dim: sure
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2015-06-10T17:54:58Z dim: I have to see about piping too, it might be quite a good fit for pgloader
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2015-06-10T17:55:35Z Shinmera: I don't know about that. It's really awkward to set it up, and I haven't been able to figure out how to fix that.
2015-06-10T17:55:53Z Shinmera: Well, more cumbersome than awkward, really.
2015-06-10T17:56:23Z Shinmera: Either way, it probably could use a bunch of improvements if someone actually used it to some extent :)
2015-06-10T17:56:37Z dim: well I'm more interested into performances and multi-threading of the workload in pgloader, some flexibility is required too
2015-06-10T17:57:08Z dim: in a next version of pgloader I want to introduce multiple writers per reader, with filtering depending on the data itself
2015-06-10T17:57:35Z dim: also I wanted to test if using a unix socket would be faster than using lparallel.queue
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2015-06-10T17:58:02Z Shinmera: Piping doesn't really have anything to do with multithreading per se, so I don't know if that fits what I'm understanding you describing right now.
2015-06-10T17:58:22Z dim: I would have each piping segment in its own thread, basically
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2015-06-10T17:59:25Z Shinmera: Hmm.
2015-06-10T17:59:35Z Shinmera: I might see about extending it for something like that.
2015-06-10T17:59:38Z Shinmera makes a note
2015-06-10T17:59:48Z dim: well not a good fit is a good answer too, don't worry too much ;-)
2015-06-10T18:00:05Z Shinmera: Piping's purpose is more to distribute messages to different consumers, passing through filters and modifiers along the way.
2015-06-10T18:00:28Z Shinmera: Which fits nicely for logging purposes where you want to have varying outputs that filter messages differently.
2015-06-10T18:01:39Z dim: pgloader reads data from a source (file, database service, etc) and process it (transforming some values) then send it down to PostgreSQL using its streaming protocol, in batches, catching errors and retrying batches until only erroneous data is left out
2015-06-10T18:01:53Z dim: so basically read | transform | copy
2015-06-10T18:02:04Z dim: copy being the streaming protocol for PostgreSQL
2015-06-10T18:02:13Z Shinmera: I see.
2015-06-10T18:02:28Z dim: I want to have: read | filter-to-multiple-queues | transform | copy
2015-06-10T18:02:37Z dim: or maybe read | transform | filter | copy
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2015-06-10T18:03:03Z dim: what is not represented in that poor ascii diagram is having more transform/filter/copy threads than read threads active
2015-06-10T18:03:26Z dim: (some kind of branching)
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2015-06-10T18:28:45Z gamma2: this game is so addicting... Super Mario Mushroom https://www.criosphinx.net/boards/arcade.php?do=play&gameid=137
2015-06-10T18:28:46Z gamma2: this game is so addicting... Super Mario Mushroom https://www.criosphinx.net/boards/arcade.php?do=play&gameid=137
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2015-06-10T18:35:20Z jasom: dim: downside with unix socket is you need to serialize/deserialize the data
2015-06-10T18:35:32Z jasom: lparallel.queue lets you directly send lisp objects IIRC
2015-06-10T18:36:49Z jasom: If a unix socket is faster than an lparallel queue, maybe try something like zeroMQ inproc sockets, which I know are faster than unix sockets
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2015-06-10T18:38:38Z jasom: and 0mq (or nanomsg if you want the "new hotness") does have various methods for having multiple producers and/or consumers
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2015-06-10T18:54:08Z tmtwd: what is the equicalent of cider-jack-in for slime?
2015-06-10T18:55:49Z drmeister: beach: I see you are still on but may not be up. I was at Google for a couple of hours and haven't gotten back to coding.
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2015-06-10T18:57:23Z drmeister: I should be able to give you feedback tonight. But my test case compiled fine. It switches between cclasp and  bclasp compilers smoothly.
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2015-06-10T19:00:29Z Xach: tmtwd: what is cider-jack-in?
2015-06-10T19:00:41Z tmtwd: its for clojure...
2015-06-10T19:00:54Z tmtwd: I have clisp installed and running, and I have slime installed
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2015-06-10T19:01:05Z H4ns: M-x slime
2015-06-10T19:01:24Z H4ns: why are so many newcomers using clisp nowadays?
2015-06-10T19:02:05Z tmtwd: apply: Searching for program: no such file or directory, lisp
2015-06-10T19:02:18Z tmtwd: H4ns, probably land of lisp recommends it?
2015-06-10T19:02:23Z tmtwd: I started with sbcl
2015-06-10T19:02:42Z tmtwd: but I wanted to read land of lisp, figured it would be easier to use what it was using
2015-06-10T19:02:47Z H4ns: tmtwd: (setq inferior-lisp-program "sbcl")
2015-06-10T19:03:07Z tmtwd: huh? is that a joke?
2015-06-10T19:03:11Z H4ns: (or clisp)
2015-06-10T19:03:16Z H4ns: what is a joke?
2015-06-10T19:03:38Z tmtwd: what is (setq inferior-lisp-program "sbcl")
2015-06-10T19:03:39Z tmtwd: ?
2015-06-10T19:03:57Z H4ns: tmtwd: it is what you put into your emacs to tell slime which emacs implementation it should use.
2015-06-10T19:04:05Z tmtwd: oh
2015-06-10T19:04:09Z tmtwd: i see
2015-06-10T19:04:25Z tmtwd: I read inferior and it sounded like it was ironic hehe
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2015-06-10T19:04:36Z tmtwd: does it go in init.el?
2015-06-10T19:04:59Z H4ns: it is in my ~/.emacs, but it could be that there is a newer fad
2015-06-10T19:05:04Z tmtwd: ok
2015-06-10T19:05:05Z tmtwd: :)
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2015-06-10T19:14:53Z tmtwd: H4ns, Sweet! its working thanks
2015-06-10T19:15:10Z H4ns: enjoy!
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2015-06-10T19:16:11Z emaczen: How do i convert an array of Chars to a string?
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2015-06-10T19:18:12Z Xach: emaczen: there are many options. coerce is one easy way. (coerce array 'string)
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2015-06-10T19:18:57Z Xach: emaczen: a string is an array of characters. the important distinction is that it is specialized to hold characters. general arrays that just happen to hold characters aren't strings.
2015-06-10T19:19:23Z emaczen: (type-of ) evaluates to (SIMPLE-ARRAY (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) (48))
2015-06-10T19:19:35Z Grue`: I think (map 'string #'identity array) might also work
2015-06-10T19:19:57Z Xach: emaczen: ok, that is an array of unsigned-bytes, not characters.
2015-06-10T19:20:21Z Xach: emaczen: you have to decide how you want to interpret the bytes. what is the encoding?
2015-06-10T19:20:27Z Grue`: ok, replace #'identity with #'code-char
2015-06-10T19:20:43Z Grue`: or whatever
2015-06-10T19:20:47Z Xach: that might work if it's encoded as ascii or latin-1.
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2015-06-10T19:20:59Z emaczen: Grue`: That works!
2015-06-10T19:21:00Z emaczen: Thanks
2015-06-10T19:21:12Z Xach: otherwise trivial-utf-8, babel, or something else, or something non-portable might be easier.
2015-06-10T19:21:15Z Grue`: woo, I havent even REPL'd that
2015-06-10T19:21:25Z Xach: emaczen: what is the encoding of the data?
2015-06-10T19:21:43Z emaczen: Xach: How can I check?
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2015-06-10T19:21:53Z Xach: emaczen: where did you get the data?
2015-06-10T19:21:56Z emaczen: Yahoo
2015-06-10T19:22:01Z Xach: emaczen: via http?
2015-06-10T19:22:07Z emaczen: Xach: Correct
2015-06-10T19:22:15Z Xach: emaczen: you can possibly check the Content-Type header for encoding info.
2015-06-10T19:22:43Z emaczen: I set content-type to "text/csv"
2015-06-10T19:23:09Z Xach: emaczen: yahoo provides the content-type header.
2015-06-10T19:23:13Z Xach: emaczen: it precedes the data
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2015-06-10T19:24:20Z Grue`: emaczen: check out http://weitz.de/flexi-streams/#octets-to-string
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2015-06-10T19:37:09Z tmtwd: is there a command to load a .lisp file into a slime repl?
2015-06-10T19:37:25Z akkad: (load "foo.lisp")
2015-06-10T19:37:27Z fourier: (load "filename.lisp")
2015-06-10T19:37:38Z fourier: akkad: :)
2015-06-10T19:38:00Z tmtwd: sweet works perfectly
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2015-06-10T19:39:14Z Xach: C-c C-l while visiting the file is pretty common too.
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2015-06-10T19:43:23Z tmtwd: (defparameter *small* 1)
2015-06-10T19:43:23Z tmtwd: (defparameter *big* 100)
2015-06-10T19:43:23Z tmtwd: (defun guess-my-number ()
2015-06-10T19:43:23Z tmtwd:   (ash (+ *small* *big*) - 1))
2015-06-10T19:43:35Z tmtwd: why doesn't this code work?
2015-06-10T19:43:45Z tmtwd: I copied it from land of lisp
2015-06-10T19:44:16Z tmtwd: (guess-my-number) throws EVAL: too many arguments given to ASH: #1=(ASH (+ *SMALL* *BIG*)
2015-06-10T19:44:16Z tmtwd:     - 1)
2015-06-10T19:44:21Z Xach: tmtwd: there is no space between - and 1
2015-06-10T19:44:28Z Xach: tmtwd: if the book has a space, the book has a typo
2015-06-10T19:45:15Z tmtwd: *blush* hehe
2015-06-10T19:45:19Z tmtwd: my bad
2015-06-10T19:45:42Z cheryllium: How do I ssh into common-lisp.net? I tried ssh name@common-lisp.net...
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2015-06-10T19:51:39Z jackdaniel: cheryllium: works for me
2015-06-10T19:51:39Z tokenrove: cheryllium: try ssh name@ssh.common-lisp.net.
2015-06-10T19:51:59Z cheryllium: oh wait I feel silly now
2015-06-10T19:52:12Z jackdaniel: (just checked) name@common-lisp.net host works
2015-06-10T19:52:14Z cheryllium: it was a problem with my internet connection
2015-06-10T19:52:23Z cheryllium: sorry for bothering :(
2015-06-10T19:52:37Z jackdaniel: no problem
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2015-06-10T20:07:10Z puchacz: hi, can anybody help me understand #:uninterned-symbol please
2015-06-10T20:07:21Z puchacz: e.g. parenscript uses this notation extensively
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2015-06-10T20:08:11Z puchacz: according to clhs, it means "not accessible to any package"
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2015-06-10T20:09:16Z dlowe: that's about it - it's a symbol that has no package
2015-06-10T20:09:37Z puchacz: but I can access named things from parenscript using ps: package prefix
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2015-06-10T20:10:15Z dlowe: sure, but not an interned symbol. Not only that, but uninterned symbols aren't necessarily EQ to each other.
2015-06-10T20:10:38Z dlowe: you'll notice when you call (gensym), it returns an uninterned symbol
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2015-06-10T20:11:12Z puchacz: to be specific, what's the difference between (in-package #:parenscript) -- actually being used
2015-06-10T20:11:13Z dlowe: so some functions in CL take "string designators," which can be symbols or strings
2015-06-10T20:11:20Z puchacz: and (in-package :parenscript) as I would have written it
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2015-06-10T20:11:38Z dlowe: right. Well, using :parenscript will create a symbol PARENSCRIPT in the KEYWORD package
2015-06-10T20:11:51Z dlowe: where it will be for all eternity, or the life of your image
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2015-06-10T20:12:37Z dlowe: Using #:parenscript allows you to use a symbol, following internal case guidelines, but without having it pollute a package's namespace
2015-06-10T20:12:39Z puchacz: (eq '#:bla '#:bla) ---> NIL
2015-06-10T20:13:15Z puchacz: so #:bla is like a string "bla" but using some reader machinery?
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2015-06-10T20:13:43Z Xach: #:bla is a symbol with a symbol-name of "BLA" (or "bla" depending on settings)
2015-06-10T20:14:02Z dlowe: what Xach said
2015-06-10T20:14:13Z puchacz: ha, they are not even equalp: (equalp '#:bla '#:bla) ---> NIL
2015-06-10T20:14:31Z puchacz: only that
2015-06-10T20:14:33Z puchacz: (equal (symbol-name '#:bla) (symbol-name '#:bla)) ---> T
2015-06-10T20:14:57Z puchacz: does it mean that a library that uses uninterned symbols can use them only by their names, as I did above?
2015-06-10T20:15:26Z Xach: puchacz: that is one very common use of uninterned symbols, for their names
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2015-06-10T20:15:48Z dlowe: the other is to have symbols that can't be duplicated, for use in macros
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2015-06-10T20:17:04Z puchacz: (let ((x (gensym))) (eq x x)) ---> T
2015-06-10T20:17:17Z puchacz: as expected, otherwise macros wouldn't work
2015-06-10T20:17:35Z puchacz: generated "names" for variables in macros I mean
2015-06-10T20:17:54Z puchacz: (let ((x '#:bla)) (eq x x)) ---> also T
2015-06-10T20:18:00Z puchacz: ok, I think I got it
2015-06-10T20:18:36Z puchacz: each time an uninterned symbol is created, it is a new object, right?
2015-06-10T20:19:10Z jackdaniel: and it's not persistant, so it is collected by gc
2015-06-10T20:19:13Z jackdaniel: symbols are fat
2015-06-10T20:20:06Z puchacz: thanks
2015-06-10T20:20:23Z Xach: make-symbol, copy-symbol are a couple other ways to make uninterned symbols.
2015-06-10T20:21:17Z puchacz: interestingly, (:export ....) in defpackage takes uninterned symbols
2015-06-10T20:21:32Z puchacz: and this is precisely where you want things to be accessed by these symbols from other places
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2015-06-10T20:22:25Z Xach: puchacz: no, it doesn't.
2015-06-10T20:22:54Z Xach: puchacz: (:export ...) takes string designators. uninterned symbols designate the string that is their name.
2015-06-10T20:23:45Z puchacz: okay - so I could very well write "PS" instead of #:ps in export (if readtable is standard and upcasing), right?
2015-06-10T20:24:06Z Xach: puchacz: yes
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2015-06-10T20:24:25Z jasom: anyone know who mobius engineering is?  There is a seemingly related wordpress site and github account, but I know nothing else about them
2015-06-10T20:25:02Z puchacz: another - related thing, please. what does :invert setting on readtable do?
2015-06-10T20:25:15Z puchacz: I cannot understand clhs wording here
2015-06-10T20:26:31Z puchacz: parenscript uses :invert as well
2015-06-10T20:26:54Z PuercoPop: jasom: how did making Eclipse CL use ecmascripten goes/went if you don't mind me asking?
2015-06-10T20:27:12Z Xach: puchacz: for symbol names, the reader makes "foo" into "FOO" and "FOO" into "foo", but if there is mixed case, no conversion is done.
2015-06-10T20:27:34Z Xach: puchacz: so (list 'foo 'Bar 'BAZ) has names of ("FOO" "Bar" "baz")
2015-06-10T20:28:34Z puchacz: understand. thanks all :-)
2015-06-10T20:29:28Z puchacz: ah, can I observe it in REPL? like (let ((*magic-variable* :invert)) (list 'foo 'Bar 'BAZ)) -> has names as Xach said?
2015-06-10T20:29:56Z Xach: puchacz: yes, hang on.
2015-06-10T20:30:19Z Xach: puchacz: although not like that - the entire form is read before the binding takes place
2015-06-10T20:30:28Z Xach: puchacz: you could use read-from-string to observe it at runtime.
2015-06-10T20:30:38Z puchacz: right
2015-06-10T20:30:54Z puchacz: don't worry, I will play with it somehow
2015-06-10T20:30:58Z puchacz: thanks!
2015-06-10T20:31:44Z Xach: (let ((*readtable* (copy-readtable))) (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :invert) (read-from-string "(foo Bar BAZ)"))
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2015-06-10T20:32:29Z puchacz: indeed. mixed case names are displayed with |Pipes|
2015-06-10T20:32:32Z puchacz: makes sense
2015-06-10T20:32:47Z puchacz: actually all non-standard case names
2015-06-10T20:33:39Z Xach: That is so they can read as the same object under the current reader settings
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2015-06-10T20:51:01Z jasom: PuercoPop: I hit a wall
2015-06-10T20:51:22Z jasom: PuercoPop: a generic function lookup during initialization is failing on emscripten, and I can't figure out why
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2015-06-10T20:53:33Z jasom: PuercoPop: it's hard to debug complicated structures on emscripten, and I haven't had time to look at it
2015-06-10T20:54:00Z jasom: I also had surgery so am catching up on work and other things
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2015-06-10T20:57:36Z emaczen: (map 'list (lambda ..) sequence) is returning a list of symbols, how can I concatenate these symbols into a string in the map form? I suspect of course (map 'string ...) but I don't know what type the lambda should return.
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2015-06-10T20:58:02Z emaczen: It appears that map 'string expects a sequence of chars, but not all of the elements of my sequence type are of 1 byte.
2015-06-10T20:58:20Z Bike: (apply #'concatenate 'string (map 'list ...)) is the obvious
2015-06-10T20:58:56Z emaczen: Bike: I need to learn apply better, but is there a way with just the map form?
2015-06-10T20:59:17Z Bike: not if the function can return more than one character.
2015-06-10T20:59:25Z jasom: emaczen: that's not what map is for
2015-06-10T20:59:42Z Bike: each call to the function sets one and only one element of the returned whatever.
2015-06-10T21:00:01Z jasom: emaczen: if you hit the arguemnt limit, you could use reduce instead of apply, but that will be very slow
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2015-06-10T21:00:28Z jasom: emaczen: map is for a sequence of N elemnets in and a sequence of N elements out
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2015-06-10T21:01:04Z emaczen: Yeah, I should have given more details
2015-06-10T21:01:08Z emaczen: Let me try again
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2015-06-10T21:01:45Z emaczen: '(N S X O L1 R5) I'm getting this from (map 'list (lambda (key) (gethash key hash)) codes)
2015-06-10T21:02:07Z emaczen: It would be nice if I could just change the 'list to a 'string but the last two elements are 2 bytes each.
2015-06-10T21:02:34Z jasom: right, so that would be 6 elements in and 8 elements out
2015-06-10T21:02:49Z jasom: which map won't do
2015-06-10T21:03:53Z emaczen: ahh gotchya
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2015-06-10T21:04:56Z jasom: for that I would do something like this: (with-output-to-string (s) (loop for key in codes (format s "~A" (gethash key has)))
2015-06-10T21:05:13Z emaczen: I was just going to ask about loop
2015-06-10T21:05:26Z jasom: you can replace the format with write-sequence if you know that the values will definitely be strings
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2015-06-10T21:06:04Z dim: jasom: thanks for the hint about zeromq!
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2015-06-10T21:06:26Z jasom: in most lisp implementations with-output-to-string is the most efficient way to build up a string piecemiel (assuming you don't know the final length of the string ahead of time)
2015-06-10T21:06:30Z dim: about the serialisation, I already need to do that to format the data in the COPY text protocol, so I pay that price whatever the transport layer choice
2015-06-10T21:07:03Z jasom: dim: np, I understand that nanomsg is where the zmq developers are using for future development, but the docs aren't as good yet
2015-06-10T21:07:27Z dim: I would prefer not to depend on another .so lib tho
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2015-06-10T21:07:31Z dim: it
2015-06-10T21:07:34Z jasom: of course
2015-06-10T21:07:48Z dim: it's the hell to ship a lisp binary image with .so dependencies
2015-06-10T21:08:07Z jasom: well zmq has the advantage there, as it's in most distros pm system at least
2015-06-10T21:08:26Z dim: well depending on openssl is already a major pain
2015-06-10T21:08:29Z Shinmera: dim: Indeed. I had a hell of a time to get Qtools' deployment system to work nicely.
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2015-06-10T21:08:49Z jasom: DLLs suck
2015-06-10T21:08:50Z dim: I still have bugs about .so loading at image startup to fix
2015-06-10T21:09:06Z dim: not image startup per-se, even, it's loaded on first use when possible
2015-06-10T21:09:38Z jasom: One thing I like about nix is that it fixes the .so dependencies; it's a lot more sane
2015-06-10T21:09:39Z dim: the problem is that for me to fix that thing I need to fix other libs that are loading the modules, and well, it's also that I don't know how to
2015-06-10T21:09:50Z dim: jasom: we are talking .so here
2015-06-10T21:09:55Z p_l: Shipping *anything* with shared lib deps is hell outside of maybe VMS or windows in fully COM-based, C++ free app
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2015-06-10T21:10:14Z dim: see https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/229 or https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/226 for examples
2015-06-10T21:10:16Z p_l: If you want to be fully safe, you need to ship the dynamic linker as well
2015-06-10T21:10:33Z dim: or rewrite the dependency in pure CL and stop bothering
2015-06-10T21:10:51Z dim: openssl, sqlite, freetds are on my list already
2015-06-10T21:11:04Z Shinmera: jasom: For Qtools it was a lot of fun because by default CommonQt uses paths that definitely won't be around anymore after the image is deployed and resumed. So I needed to intercept that, manually track and close all foreign libraries, put them beside the binary, and then manually load them again to ensure that it can find them.
2015-06-10T21:11:10Z dim: who's in to rewrite those in pure CL? I already worked on the MySQL driver...
2015-06-10T21:11:23Z Shinmera: *manually load them when the image is started
2015-06-10T21:11:51Z dim: Shinmera: so you will have a very well informed opinion about https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/hooks.lisp
2015-06-10T21:12:40Z Shinmera: dim: The system I currently have is only tailored to the Qt libs, but I intend to generalise it to offer a system that is hookable to handle other libraries as well.
2015-06-10T21:12:58Z Shinmera: (See https://github.com/Shinmera/qtools/blob/master/deploy.lisp )
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2015-06-10T21:14:36Z jasom: do *any* lisp implementations let you statically link foreign code to your image?
2015-06-10T21:14:53Z Shinmera: I haven't heard of that, but I haven't looked around either.
2015-06-10T21:14:59Z Shinmera: It /would/ be very nice.
2015-06-10T21:15:44Z oGMo: you can with SBCL
2015-06-10T21:15:55Z dim: jasom: ECL and drmeister's clasp would be where I would look
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2015-06-10T21:16:14Z dim: oGMo: you need to include the libs' sources at compile time I guess?
2015-06-10T21:16:15Z oGMo: if you hack the build of the binary iirc, photex got SDL2 and some stuff linked
2015-06-10T21:16:16Z jasom: dim: I know you can statically link with ecl, but I don't know if you could get the symbol addresses for FFI
2015-06-10T21:16:20Z oGMo: dim: right
2015-06-10T21:16:57Z oGMo: dim: presumably you're building for some kind of binary distribution, so probably not an issue
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2015-06-10T21:17:39Z dim: well I would love being able to ship with OpenSSL and stuff statically included in the binary that's for sure
2015-06-10T21:17:47Z dim: do you have any pointers?
2015-06-10T21:17:59Z Shinmera can't afford that solution for Qtools
2015-06-10T21:18:18Z dim: to break from hell it's either that or shipping docker images
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2015-06-10T21:20:48Z jasom: dim, Shinmera: have you tried wrapping with a shell script and doing LD_PRELOAD stuffing?
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2015-06-10T21:21:13Z Shinmera: jasom: No, but I'd rather not have shell anything involved.
2015-06-10T21:21:21Z jasom: Shinmera: fair enough
2015-06-10T21:21:42Z dim: jasom: the whole thing is that I am not the user here
2015-06-10T21:21:50Z nyef: Okay, use a gimmicked toplevel that sets the environment variable and does an exec().
2015-06-10T21:22:18Z Shinmera: Setting environment variables is not portably available. (in the very least, uiop doesn't cover it)
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2015-06-10T21:22:29Z dim: I release a binary image and people I've never met before are going to download that and run the thing, and sometimes it doesn't run because of .so briken dependencies, and they open bugs because my software is then known broken
2015-06-10T21:22:38Z jasom: I hate DLLs.  I also hate libraries that detect that you've statically linked them and then try to load a dll from the system anyway (I'm looking at you glibc)
2015-06-10T21:22:56Z nyef: Use execvpe() then!
2015-06-10T21:23:56Z dim: actually starting an "inferior process" and consuming its output might be a good idea in lots of cases
2015-06-10T21:24:22Z dim: plus I need to do that for pg_restore to be able to have pg dumps as a pgloader source...
2015-06-10T21:24:48Z Shinmera: dim: I don't know how you handle image generation right now, but having to hook into SBCL/CCL's stuff seems sketchy to me. I could avoid all of that by extending ASDF's program-op, as shown in the lower halves of that deploy.lisp
2015-06-10T21:25:07Z dim: I'm using buildapp
2015-06-10T21:25:32Z dim: and I'm quite the asdf noob still
2015-06-10T21:25:34Z Shinmera: I see. I'm just using (asdf:operate :program-op :system) now.
2015-06-10T21:25:40Z Shinmera: Works like a charm.
2015-06-10T21:26:04Z Shinmera: (what exact operation that invokes and how it finds the entry point etc is covered by the system definition)
2015-06-10T21:26:13Z dim: my audience is sysadmins and dbas that typically never heard of lisp anywhere but in historical references, mostly jokes about parens
2015-06-10T21:26:25Z Shinmera: Eg https://github.com/Shinmera/halftone/blob/master/halftone.asd#L33
2015-06-10T21:26:29Z dim: and they are like "oh it's a dynamic interpreted thing of no practical interest"
2015-06-10T21:26:42Z Shinmera: ^those three are all you need now to allow building and automatically deploying a Qt/Qtools application
2015-06-10T21:26:42Z jasom: dim: hopefully sysadmins know how to resolve missing DLLs?
2015-06-10T21:26:58Z nyef: A dynamic interpreted thing of no practical interest? Sounds like RETURN EXECUTE QUERY to me!
2015-06-10T21:27:19Z dim: they do /usr/bin/pgloader and it works and that's it, and if they have to look at anything they are like "wtf is it weighting 20MB?", and I answer to them "well because thankfully it's been compressed very effectively from 100MB."
2015-06-10T21:27:25Z jasom: dim: you could handle the condition from load-foreign-library with a good error message?
2015-06-10T21:27:51Z dim: An unhandled error condition has been signalled: Undefined alien: "SSL_get_version"
2015-06-10T21:28:02Z dim: that's the error message I can spit out now, in cases
2015-06-10T21:28:08Z dim: they have openssl installed
2015-06-10T21:28:24Z dim: and openssl-devel
2015-06-10T21:28:32Z Shinmera: jasom: Oh by the way, I fixed the error that you got in Halftone. It now simply suppresses them, which works fine enough.
2015-06-10T21:28:37Z dim: and they could rebuild pgloader from sources, and still have the problem when starting the binary
2015-06-10T21:28:44