2015-06-01T00:00:38Z pillton: Ignoring :preserve for the time being, changing from :upcase to :downcase should not break anything.
2015-06-01T00:00:41Z pjb: Having the source in all upcase works with :upcase, :preserve and :inverte. Having the source in all lowcase works only with :upcase.
2015-06-01T00:00:52Z pjb: Therefore lisp sources should be written in all upcase preferably.
2015-06-01T00:01:06Z pjb: pillton: yes, it will break CL symbols.
2015-06-01T00:01:23Z pillton: Does the standard say they should be upper case?
2015-06-01T00:01:33Z pjb: :downcase must be the most impractical readtable case for CL sources.
2015-06-01T00:01:42Z pjb: 23.1.2.1 Examples of Effect of Readtable Case on the Lisp Reader
2015-06-01T00:01:57Z pjb: And yes, the standard specifies the case of the standard CL package names and symbol names.
2015-06-01T00:02:17Z pjb: (that's why modern modes are not conforming and must be avoided and ignored).
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2015-06-01T00:05:43Z pjb: pillton: using a few utility functions like alexandria:symbolicate (IIRC, they have corrected the gross bug then had with *print-case*) seems to be to be much preferable than having one more read macro.
2015-06-01T00:06:03Z pjb: s/to be to/to me to/
2015-06-01T00:06:24Z pillton: Ok. So if the standard dictates :upcase then that changes things.
2015-06-01T00:06:33Z pillton: I was unaware of that.
2015-06-01T00:06:49Z pjb: You can safely use "CAR".
2015-06-01T00:07:26Z pillton: clhs: standard readtable
2015-06-01T00:07:37Z pillton: How do you look up the glossary?
2015-06-01T00:08:40Z pjb: Using the glossary index: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_a.htm
2015-06-01T00:08:58Z pillton: pjb: I meant with the bot clhs.
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2015-06-01T00:09:44Z Adlai: you could try using http://l1sp.org/cl/*readtable*
2015-06-01T00:09:47Z pillton: pjb: Thanks. I was unaware of the definitions standard syntax and standard readtable.
2015-06-01T00:11:21Z pillton: pjb: Thanks for your opinion on the reader macro too. I was unsure about it so I thought I'd ask.
2015-06-01T00:16:45Z pjb: pillton: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_dada.htm
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2015-06-01T00:18:00Z pillton: Even better. Cheers.
2015-06-01T00:18:56Z pjb: pillton: now, of course, you may have fun and publish a nice utility on quicklisp as (defpackage "Nice" (:use "CL") (:export "VeryNiceFunction" "something" "theOther")) :-)
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2015-06-01T00:19:46Z pillton: I have no interest in doing that. :)
2015-06-01T00:19:58Z pjb: so people would be left with the choice of (|Nice|:|VeryNiceFunction| |Nice|:|theOther|) or (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :preserve) (Nice:VeryNiceFunction Nice:theOther) (SETF (READTABLE-CASE *READTABLE*) :UPCASE) ;-)
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2015-06-01T00:20:42Z pjb: or worse, have symbols similar to CL but in lowercase that you'd want to use at the same time as CL.
2015-06-01T00:21:06Z pillton: Oh dear. Don't say that out loud.
2015-06-01T00:21:10Z pjb: (IF (equal (CAR car) mycar) if uf)
2015-06-01T00:22:11Z pillton: The reason I started thinking about this was that I was asked to explain why people define packages differently.
2015-06-01T00:22:25Z pillton: I didn't have a good answer so I thought about what the most correct way is.
2015-06-01T00:23:00Z Zhivago: Just get rid of all of that case mangling nonsense. :)
2015-06-01T00:23:00Z pillton: ...from a library writers point of view.
2015-06-01T00:23:15Z Zhivago: It's not like we're stuck with terminals that can't do both, these days.
2015-06-01T00:23:18Z pillton: Zhivago: Amen.
2015-06-01T00:23:24Z pjb: It doesn't make any difference, once the defpackage form is compiled, since this macro should replace all the string designators by strings while compiling anyways.
2015-06-01T00:24:00Z pjb: Zhivago: terminals can do both, but apparently programmers can't do uppercase anymore.  Everybody seems to be very allergic to uppercase.
2015-06-01T00:24:20Z pillton: pjb: It makes a difference to the user though. A library writer shouldn't impose a view on the user.
2015-06-01T00:24:51Z pjb: pillton: the convention is that all symbols are uppercase. There's no imposition made by writing the defpackage form as you wish.
2015-06-01T00:25:17Z pjb: I use strings to avoid the problem altogether: the user may use whatever readtable-case he wants.
2015-06-01T00:27:14Z pillton: In my opinion that choice impacts the choice the user has over the readtable case. i.e. The most convenient way to use your library is to use the readtable case that you use.
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2015-06-01T00:30:50Z pjb: There's no user choice about it indeed.  It's the program author who decides what case his symbols are.  You can set the readtable in each of your source files (you do, eg. when enabling reader macros).
2015-06-01T00:31:18Z pjb: Symbols are used to interface with the external world too, so you cannot change their case at random in general. (FFI and others).
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2015-06-01T00:34:34Z pjb: If you wanted to allow the user of your code to change the case of your symbols, you would have to be careful to escape all the symbols used externally (FFI, file formats, protocols, etc).
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2015-06-01T00:39:51Z Zhivago: I think that Java programmers show the lie in that.
2015-06-01T00:40:09Z Zhivago: Modern programmers areQuiteAdeptAtUsingCapitals. :)
2015-06-01T00:40:19Z pjb: Java programmers are probably worse than Cobol programmers.
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2015-06-01T00:41:04Z pjb: Zhivago: I don't have problems with case sentivity, again, being a C, Modula-2 programme much more than a Pascal programmer.
2015-06-01T00:41:24Z Zhivago: Yeah. It's this quasi-case-insensitivity that's the root of the evil.
2015-06-01T00:42:02Z pjb: That's why I would prefer to publish my sources in all upcase, so you could use readtable-case :preserve.
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2015-06-01T00:44:42Z pillton: Interesting.
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2015-06-01T00:53:38Z pjb: In my ~/quicklisp there are 123,501 lines with occurences of |.*| in lisp files, over 10,250,354 LoC.
2015-06-01T00:54:39Z pillton: I'm sure if you changed readtable case lots of things would break.
2015-06-01T00:54:51Z pillton: So that number is really a lower bound.
2015-06-01T00:55:03Z skrue: It would be great to use the lisp repl as a shell. Are there any projects for that? Or adding a GUI to it.. and replace the OS
2015-06-01T00:55:22Z pjb: skrue: several things.
2015-06-01T00:55:40Z pjb: http://www.clisp.org/clash.html
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2015-06-01T00:56:11Z pjb: You can use: chsh /usr/bin/ccl  or your favorite implementation, once you've added its path to /etc/shells
2015-06-01T00:56:35Z pjb: skrue: have a look at http://www.informatimago.com/linux/emacs-on-user-mode-linux.html
2015-06-01T00:56:41Z pjb: You can do the same with a CL implementation.
2015-06-01T00:57:18Z skrue: thanks
2015-06-01T00:57:39Z pjb: also check http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=summary&p=public/lep ; but it's not as usable as emacs-on-user-mode-linux yet.
2015-06-01T01:01:12Z pjb: skrue: also have a look at Mezzano and Movitz.
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2015-06-01T02:33:19Z drmeister: A question about packages and symbols...
2015-06-01T02:33:38Z drmeister: The Clasp bootstrapping compiler is in the package :CMP
2015-06-01T02:34:46Z drmeister: I'm interfacing beach's Cleavir compiler into Clasp and I've created a couple of packages that have similar names to Cleavir packages and I'm putting functions into those packages.
2015-06-01T02:35:01Z drmeister: These functions use a lot of functions that are currently internal to :CMP
2015-06-01T02:36:36Z drmeister: Should I export these symbols from the :CMP package so that I can invoke them like (cmp:irc-intrinsic ...)   or should I have the new compiler code use them as internal symbols (cmp::irc-intrinsic ...)?
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2015-06-01T02:37:13Z drmeister: There is quite a few of them
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2015-06-01T02:39:12Z nyef: Or should you split out a new package for these functions?
2015-06-01T02:39:28Z drmeister: How would I do that?
2015-06-01T02:39:33Z drmeister: What would that constitute?
2015-06-01T02:40:01Z nyef: Define the new package, have it export all of the functions, have both CMP and the other package USE them.
2015-06-01T02:40:12Z nyef: Err... s/them/it/.
2015-06-01T02:41:11Z nyef: If you want to retrofit it to a running instance instead of rebuilding from scratch it gets a little more complex, though.
2015-06-01T02:41:35Z drmeister: Do you mean create a new package (lets say I call it :CLEAVIR-CMP), import the symbols that I need from :CMP into :CLEAVIR-CMP and have my new code use :CLEAVIR-CMP?
2015-06-01T02:43:06Z drmeister: Reading what you said and thinking..
2015-06-01T02:43:10Z nyef: Maybe :CMP-INTRINSICS or something, but you'd have both :CMP and :CLEAVER USE the package, making it clear that the shared code is used by both, but doesn't depend on either?
2015-06-01T02:43:28Z drmeister: I see.
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2015-06-01T02:43:55Z drmeister: That's a lot of organizing... thinking...
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2015-06-01T02:45:06Z drmeister: Maybe not.
2015-06-01T02:45:08Z nyef: It's the sort of organizing that I try to do as a matter of course.
2015-06-01T02:45:24Z drmeister: I haven't been that careful.
2015-06-01T02:45:37Z drmeister: I'm paying for the sins of my past.
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2015-06-01T02:46:08Z nyef: You could still do the package games, and have it basically work, as long as you don't package-lock the new package.
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2015-06-01T02:46:53Z drmeister: I wrote the bootstrapping compiler and now I realize that I can reuse a lot of its code to generate code directed by Cleavir output.
2015-06-01T02:50:04Z drmeister: I see what you are saying though.  The bootstrapping compiler is a small amount of code that uses a lot of intrinsics that interact with and wrap the LLVM library.
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2015-06-01T02:52:00Z drmeister: I should identify all of those intrinsics and export them.
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2015-06-01T03:06:20Z drmeister: Got 'em - there's like 90 of them.  This is not a clean package.
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2015-06-01T03:07:18Z drmeister: What do you do in Common Lisp if you have a function name and you want to give it a new name and then change everywhere where you called that function?
2015-06-01T03:07:24Z drmeister: sed?
2015-06-01T03:07:32Z drmeister: Or is there a better way.
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2015-06-01T03:11:23Z nyef: grep, M-x query-replace ?
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2015-06-01T03:14:04Z drmeister: Ok, so text substitution.  There's nothing that parses Common Lisp and substitutes names in a language aware way.   So I have to be careful with s/irc-add/irc-+/   if there is a function irc-add-signed  and irc-add-unsigned.    That's what I thought.
2015-06-01T03:15:17Z nyef: Well, there might be a smarter setup out there, but nothing comes immediately to mind.
2015-06-01T03:15:21Z drmeister: I can do C++ language aware source-to-source translation within Clasp but it's tricky.  I was looking for something like that for CL, while being 99% sure that there was nothing like that.
2015-06-01T03:15:33Z drmeister: Got it, no problem.
2015-06-01T03:17:38Z drmeister: I'm going to avoid using packages.  While it's more work and more verbose to type things like (cmp:irc-intrinsic ...) rather than (use-package :cmp) (irc-intrinsic ...)   - it's easier to search for and replace symbols like cmp:irc-intrinsic when they are prefixed with a package name.
2015-06-01T03:18:10Z drmeister: I wonder how people feel about that.
2015-06-01T03:18:34Z drmeister: Explicitly prefixing symbols with package names rather than using packages.
2015-06-01T03:19:06Z nyef: There are times when it is appropriate. It's the recommended style for using CLX, for example, to prefix the symbols with XLIB: instead of USEing the package.
2015-06-01T03:20:34Z drmeister: What about using package nicknames to shorten the prefix?  cl:list vs common-lisp:list
2015-06-01T03:20:37Z Zhivago: I generally prefer the explicit names, unless it's infrastructure like defgeneric, etc.
2015-06-01T03:20:54Z Zhivago: Sounds good to me.
2015-06-01T03:21:22Z drmeister: beach uses explicit names a lot - at first I thought it was too verbose but I'm appreciating them more as I work with them more.
2015-06-01T03:25:42Z drmeister: It's the package+symbol-name that means something.
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2015-06-01T03:39:26Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-06-01T03:39:34Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-06-01T03:40:44Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2015-06-01T03:49:31Z drmeister: Hi beach
2015-06-01T03:50:25Z drmeister: beach: Should I use those symbols as internal symbols or do you think it's appropriate to export them?
2015-06-01T03:50:53Z drmeister: That last question was regarding an email I sent you in the last hour.
2015-06-01T03:51:04Z beach: Hold on...
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2015-06-01T03:52:21Z drmeister: My reader was ignoring internal/external boundaries and all symbols could be accessed using single colon XXX:YYY notation.  It was a big free-for-all and I used symbols with complete disregard as to whether they were exported or not.
2015-06-01T03:52:29Z beach: drmeister: Either I should export them, or you should not use them.
2015-06-01T03:52:54Z beach: Give me a few minutes.
2015-06-01T03:52:55Z drmeister: Could you export them then?  I use them to annotate the graphs.
2015-06-01T03:53:18Z beach: The fact that you use them doesn't mean you should.  I need to check.  Hold on.
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2015-06-01T03:54:52Z drmeister: I allowed that bug in my reader to persist because it solved some bootstrapping issues that I had using the ECL code.  Last week I fixed the bug in the reader and then I had a whole bunch of symbols that I had to track down and export at appropriate times.  It was a headache.
2015-06-01T03:54:54Z beach: I should definitely export LABEL.
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2015-06-01T03:55:06Z drmeister: That's the one I use the most.
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2015-06-01T03:55:49Z drmeister: I got clasp to compile again as well as ASDF and Slime and now I'm tackling Cleavir.
2015-06-01T03:56:05Z drmeister: I'd like to show the folks up in Boston Cleavir generated graphs.
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2015-06-01T03:57:48Z beach: drmeister: All three that you mentioned are now exported.
2015-06-01T03:57:57Z drmeister: Hurray!
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2015-06-01T03:59:34Z beach: I forgot to export them, because I never needed to customize the graphviz drawing for SICL.
2015-06-01T03:59:49Z beach: So I didn't notice that they weren't exported.
2015-06-01T04:02:10Z drmeister: No problem.
2015-06-01T04:02:45Z drmeister: It wasn't a problem until my reader started honoring internal/external symbols properly.
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2015-06-01T04:02:54Z beach: Right.
2015-06-01T04:03:13Z drmeister: And then the shite hit the fan.
2015-06-01T04:03:37Z beach: Understandable.
2015-06-01T04:03:53Z drmeister: How's type inference going?
2015-06-01T04:03:58Z drmeister ducks
2015-06-01T04:04:06Z beach: I am not working on type inference at the moment.
2015-06-01T04:04:13Z drmeister: What are you working on?
2015-06-01T04:04:15Z beach: I am waiting for you to give me reasons to.
2015-06-01T04:04:28Z beach: I am working on bootstrapping still.
2015-06-01T04:05:23Z drmeister: I figured you wouldn't be working on it until I started making requests again. :-)
2015-06-01T04:05:51Z beach: Yes, it's an excellent opportunity to make progress on my own system. :)
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2015-06-01T04:06:14Z drmeister: Can you bootstrap without being able to generate code?
2015-06-01T04:06:20Z beach: Sure.
2015-06-01T04:06:32Z beach: I can run a full SICL environment inside a host Common Lisp.
2015-06-01T04:06:45Z drmeister: Right.
2015-06-01T04:06:58Z beach: The host compiler generates the native code for me.
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2015-06-01T04:07:58Z drmeister: How far will that take you to bootstrapping outside of a host Common Lisp?
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2015-06-01T04:08:55Z beach: I am hoping I will have a complete isomorphic graph of SICL objects inside the host.  Then I "just" need to traverse that graph and write the target version of it to a file.
2015-06-01T04:09:41Z beach: But I will probably put off the last step as long as possible, because the minute I have a native system, I lose all my development tools.
2015-06-01T04:09:48Z beach: So I might work on those first.
2015-06-01T04:09:59Z beach: SLIME interface, ASDF, debugger, etc.
2015-06-01T04:10:06Z drmeister: Yep.
2015-06-01T04:11:51Z drmeister: I'm just trying to get Clasp returned to the point where I can generate code using Cleavir so I can show folks in Boston where I'm going with this.
2015-06-01T04:12:20Z beach: That ought to be possible now, right?
2015-06-01T04:12:37Z beach: You just need to recover from those bugs.
2015-06-01T04:12:44Z drmeister: Without this hiccup involving the reader. Yes.
2015-06-01T04:13:28Z drmeister: I have so much to do in the next month - it's crazy.
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2015-06-01T04:14:10Z beach: Sorry to hear that.  Deadlines coming up?
2015-06-01T04:14:10Z drmeister: I hope to be able to work on generating better code in July.
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2015-06-01T04:14:14Z drmeister: Yes.
2015-06-01T04:14:46Z drmeister: So I'll start bugging you about type inference around then - how does that sound?
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2015-06-01T04:15:15Z beach: Sounds great.
2015-06-01T04:16:15Z drmeister: Ok. Thanks.  I'm going to go for a walk and get a late dinner. I'm still in California and I'm flying back to Philadelphia tomorrow.
2015-06-01T04:16:47Z drmeister: I'll talk to you later.
2015-06-01T04:17:11Z beach: OK.
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2015-06-01T04:22:59Z emaczen`: With cl-who, how can I get html expansions of the form <tag-name text> </tag-name> ?
2015-06-01T04:24:02Z emaczen`: All I have done in the past is attributes such as (:tagname :attribute "value") which exapands too <tagname attribute=value></attribute>
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2015-06-01T04:28:01Z emaczen`: oops that closing tag should be </tagname>
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2015-06-01T04:52:16Z emaczen`: Does my question make sense?
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2015-06-01T04:54:34Z beach: It makes sense to me.  I just don't know the answer.
2015-06-01T04:55:32Z pinterface: emaczen`: (:tagname :attribute t) should do what you want.
2015-06-01T04:55:36Z pinterface: see http://weitz.de/cl-who/#syntax
2015-06-01T04:55:52Z emaczen`: So I just tinkered long enough to find a solution... If you just type in the raw html string it should work...
2015-06-01T04:56:11Z emaczen`: pinterface: I tried that and also tried switching the 'html-mode' from :xml to :sgml
2015-06-01T04:59:32Z emaczen`: pinterface: Ok, that works and I am just not using (with-html-output-to-string) -- I am accidentally using ps-html
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2015-06-01T05:04:01Z pinterface facepalms at parenscript not using cl-who to generate html from cl-who style markup.
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2015-06-01T05:21:11Z drmeister: beach: Are you still online?
2015-06-01T05:21:15Z drmeister: Could you export cleavir-generate-ast:convert-special
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2015-06-01T05:25:22Z drmeister: There are some more - I'll email you
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2015-06-01T05:32:44Z beach: I am here.
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2015-06-01T05:41:43Z oleo_: moring beach
2015-06-01T05:41:47Z oleo_: morning all
2015-06-01T05:41:53Z oleo_: ups sorry*
2015-06-01T05:41:53Z beach: Hello oleo_.
2015-06-01T05:42:09Z oleo_: i just woke up meh
2015-06-01T05:42:12Z beach: drmeister: Exported cleavir-generate-ast:convert-special as requested.
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2015-06-01T05:42:33Z drmeister: A few more coming.
2015-06-01T05:42:38Z drmeister: beach^
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2015-06-01T05:46:31Z oleo_: anyway till laters bye!
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2015-06-01T05:51:32Z drmeister: beach: I just sent some more symbols and I'm finding a few more
2015-06-01T05:52:13Z beach: OK, thanks.
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2015-06-01T05:57:25Z beach: drmeister: You got it.
2015-06-01T05:57:26Z drmeister: This is tedious - thank goodness for slime.  I can edit the code and from sldb I can retry compilation.
2015-06-01T05:57:39Z Shinmera: Good morning, everyone.
2015-06-01T05:58:03Z beach: Hello Shinmera.
2015-06-01T05:58:58Z beach: drmeister: In what way do you edit the code?
2015-06-01T05:59:16Z drmeister: For now I'm just converting the cleavir symbols to :: access and when I grab the new sicl code I'll convert them back to : access.
2015-06-01T05:59:39Z beach: drmeister: SBCL has a restart "Use the symbol anyway" or something like that.
2015-06-01T05:59:43Z beach: It is quite useful.
2015-06-01T05:59:44Z Shinmera: On today's menu: Making the final step for Qtools' deployment extensions. Once I got that in, creating a binary for a Qt project will be just a single ASDF command, which automatically preps your image properly and gathers the necessary shared object libraries for you, so you can just zip a folder and be done with it.
2015-06-01T05:59:59Z drmeister: Symbols that I define I'm exporting them, evaluating the export and then recompiling.
2015-06-01T06:00:13Z drmeister: I'm adding them to the defpackage form
2015-06-01T06:00:23Z drmeister: the (:export ...) part
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2015-06-01T06:03:02Z beach: drmeister: Monday mornings are crazy around here.  I need to go.  If you have more symbols you need exported, send me an email.
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2015-06-01T06:04:13Z drmeister: I'm compiling one - I have 4 more symbols so far.
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2015-06-01T06:36:19Z jackdaniel: o/
2015-06-01T06:37:12Z tuturto: \o
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2015-06-01T07:00:30Z kami: Good morning.
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2015-06-01T08:38:39Z schjetne: Any Postmodernists here? I'm a bit stuck on how to specify constraints (like UNIQUE) for DAO class slots.
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2015-06-01T08:43:38Z jackdaniel /win 14
2015-06-01T08:43:45Z jackdaniel: erm
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2015-06-01T08:47:23Z dim: schjetne: my advice is to avoid defining your schema at this level, use DDL (Data DEfinition Language, part of SQL) for that
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2015-06-01T08:48:14Z dim: rationale (quick): your relational model is here to serve multiple apps (dashboards, transactional, acounting, etc) and your object model is serving one of those only (different code paths)
2015-06-01T08:48:15Z jdz: and ORMs are creating more problems than they're solving, anyway
2015-06-01T08:48:44Z dim: mostly because the R in ORM should be the Resulset and most of them are targeting the Relation instead
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2015-06-01T08:49:22Z dim: see JOOQ (Java) or POMM (PHP) for examples where they properly target the Resulset and allow full SQL
2015-06-01T08:49:39Z dim: Postmodern is a very good citizen there, with its DAO that allows to do just that too
2015-06-01T08:50:06Z dim: it just allows a tad too much to be done at the CL side of things IMNSHO
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2015-06-01T08:51:24Z schjetne: dim: thanks
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2015-06-01T08:54:38Z jdz: i seem to remember the database abstraction in .net is also based on "resultset"
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2015-06-01T10:40:54Z loz: greetings, fellows
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2015-06-01T10:41:42Z loz: any usable xml library around?
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2015-06-01T10:43:34Z splittist: loz: I usually start my research on things like that at quickdocs.org . If nothing else it gives a sense of some of the landmarks when exploring further.
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2015-06-01T10:44:16Z Shinmera: loz: define "usable".
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2015-06-01T10:46:23Z loz: Shinmera: easy to start to use, supports parsing and generating, and can handle xml streams
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2015-06-01T10:48:51Z Shinmera: What does it mean to "handle xml streams"? XML is a document format, not a streaming format.
2015-06-01T10:49:12Z dim: I've used cxml and I liked it, see https://github.com/dimitri/pubnames which is a very small project (used to import data for a blog post)
2015-06-01T10:49:36Z p_l: Shinmera: .NET and Java both use similar "stream" abstraction for I/O as Lisp
2015-06-01T10:49:45Z dim: Shinmera: SAX based approach where you can process the XML without having it all in memory
2015-06-01T10:49:46Z p_l: so I guess that's the source
2015-06-01T10:49:54Z p_l: and then there's SAX, too
2015-06-01T10:50:02Z p_l: though I prefer STP
2015-06-01T10:50:21Z p_l: not sure how well it does on not making DOM, though
2015-06-01T10:51:32Z Shinmera: Hmm. Might be worth adding such a feature to Plump some day.
2015-06-01T10:51:37Z Shinmera: Right now it would require hackery.
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2015-06-01T10:58:49Z loz: Shinmera: basically xmpp is streaming xml
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2015-06-01T11:01:09Z splittist: loz: is that an example or are you looking for something like https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-xmpp/ ?
2015-06-01T11:01:18Z p_l: loz: XMPP is not streaming XML - it's just a consecutive series of XML documents exchanged through basic TCP protocol :)
2015-06-01T11:01:47Z loz: splittist: i'm actually using cl-xmpp for xmpp bot
2015-06-01T11:01:55Z splittist: oh (:
2015-06-01T11:02:39Z Shinmera: loz: If you want something that can handle what XMPP does then any parser will do, as --as p_l already said-- it's just consecutive documents.
2015-06-01T11:02:51Z loz: p_l: well, i suppose that is what they call xml stream)
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2015-06-01T11:03:27Z dim: sometimes it's all nested into a top-level node
2015-06-01T11:03:35Z dim: as in the openstreetmap exports
2015-06-01T11:03:58Z dim: so you actually want to parse independant sub-documents, but you receive them as a big document containing them, and then SAX is quite useful
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2015-06-01T11:04:03Z dim: I don't know about STP tho
2015-06-01T11:04:29Z Shinmera: In any case, maybe Plump is for you, maybe not. http://shinmera.github.io/plump/
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2015-06-01T11:05:26Z loz: Shinmera: thanks, i'll check it out later
2015-06-01T11:05:57Z loz: btw there is no plump in search results for "xml" on quickdocks
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2015-06-01T11:06:56Z Shinmera: probably because its description field says "X/HTML".
2015-06-01T11:09:38Z loz: yep, you may consider changing it to something like "xhtml/html/xml"
2015-06-01T11:10:13Z Shinmera shakes his fist at search engines for not being smart enough to understand his shorthands.
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2015-06-01T11:13:31Z loz imagined domain to test drakma error behaviour, instead got (drakma:http-request "http://www.non-existent.com") -> "Welcome and thanks for stopping by. "
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2015-06-01T11:14:21Z otwieracz: Nowadays it's hard to imagine non-existant domain.
2015-06-01T11:14:51Z Shinmera: Not really.
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2015-06-01T11:15:15Z loz: some random keystrokes did the job :)
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2015-06-01T11:18:07Z tuturto: http://www.invalid.example.com/ should always be invalid
2015-06-01T11:22:54Z loz: is there anything like last for vectors?
2015-06-01T11:23:05Z loz: or even sequences?
2015-06-01T11:24:14Z Shinmera: (elt (reverse sequence) 0) :^)
2015-06-01T11:24:22Z Shinmera: ((please don't))
2015-06-01T11:25:37Z loz: alexandria:last-elt, this is it)
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2015-06-01T11:58:17Z pjb: drmeister: you can use walk-sexps, map-sexps, replace-sexps: https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/emacs/blob/master/pjb-sources.el#L1258
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2015-06-01T12:01:50Z pjb: drmeister: it could be done directly in CL at the sexp level, if you used an emacs written in CL and didn't care about characters in the "file", but only edited the sexp, like in the Interlisp environment.  You can recreate something similar in CL, merging ibcl and sedit http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/  http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/sedit/
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2015-06-01T12:04:15Z pjb: drmeister: even sexp based edition is somewhat problematic in CL, because you need basically to load the code you want to edit into the editor, since you need it to read the code! (packages, reader macros, compilation-time effects, etc).  image based development is quite different from external text file based development.
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2015-06-01T12:11:18Z splittist: pjb: surely your reimplementation of MasterScope is coming soon  (:
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2015-06-01T12:16:53Z schjetne goes to read about MasterScope
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2015-06-01T12:24:11Z schjetne: That sounds really useful
2015-06-01T12:24:19Z schjetne: http://larry.masinter.net/interlisp-ieee.pdf
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2015-06-01T12:29:38Z Xach: there's a program called "cscope" for c development that sounds very similar
2015-06-01T12:29:45Z Xach: I don't know which inspired which
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2015-06-01T12:32:12Z splittist: MasterScope pre-dates cscope, if one is to believe http://cscope.sourceforge.net/history.html
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2015-06-01T12:36:07Z pjb: splittist: lisp stuff always pre-dates copier's stuff. </smug>
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2015-06-01T12:40:27Z Xach: I would love to know more about the relationship. I have not found any cscope information that says "this was inspired by masterscope."
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2015-06-01T12:48:25Z loz: can i somehow specify enumeration of types to check-type macro?
2015-06-01T12:48:35Z pjb: with the member type.
2015-06-01T12:48:38Z loz: for example i want x to be either fixnum or nil
2015-06-01T12:48:49Z pjb: with the or type.
2015-06-01T12:48:57Z pjb: (check-type x (or fixnum null))
2015-06-01T12:49:19Z loz: pjb: nice, thank you :)
2015-06-01T12:49:22Z pjb: (check-type a (member 0 42 nil hello))
2015-06-01T12:49:50Z loz: so it can handle even values, isn't it?
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2015-06-01T12:50:16Z pjb: yes, with member, you can designate types containing arbitrary sets of values.
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2015-06-01T12:53:12Z loz: is this what other languages use singleton-types for?
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2015-06-01T12:54:21Z pjb: You can indeed use (member 42), and assume that (deftype nil () '(member)).
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2015-06-01T13:03:33Z loz: pjb: can i also check that x is a function with specified number of arguments?)
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2015-06-01T13:18:38Z Shinmera: Hooray, deployment finally works easily! https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TmpNeQ==
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2015-06-01T13:21:07Z nyef: Shinmera: Congratulations!
2015-06-01T13:21:33Z Shinmera: Also: Quickloading Qtools will now automatically attempt to build smokegen and smokeqt if it's not already provided by the system.
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2015-06-01T13:22:02Z Shinmera: That took way more work than I thought/hoped it would.
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2015-06-01T13:26:55Z Shinmera: Coincidentally, does someone know why even if I do (locally (declare (sb-ext:muffle-conditions style-warning)) ..) around my foreign library loads, it still prints out a load of style-warning notes about undefined aliens to *error-output*?
2015-06-01T13:27:29Z Shinmera: Binding *error-output* to an empty broadcast-stream does suppress it of course, but I'd rather just muffle the conditions properly.
2015-06-01T13:27:49Z loz: Shinmera: good job!
2015-06-01T13:28:10Z pjb: loz: you can denote a type for such a function, but typep is not guaranted to be able to verify it.
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2015-06-01T13:29:50Z pjb: typep doesn't take function types.
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2015-06-01T13:30:06Z pjb: so it's guaranteed to fail to verify them actually.
2015-06-01T13:30:53Z pjb: loz: therefore the answer to your question is: no.
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2015-06-01T13:31:09Z loz: i see
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2015-06-01T13:32:58Z oleo: hello
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2015-06-01T13:59:04Z scymtym: Shinmera: the declaration controls the compiler. if your warning is signaled at runtime (not sure if that is the case in your scenario), try binding SB-EXT:*MUFFLED-WARNINGS*. note that it wants a type specifier, not a list of types. see http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Customization-Hooks-for-Users and maybe http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/sbcl/sbcl-2015-05.txt.
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2015-06-01T14:17:59Z nyef: ... Is the type of truth really only specifiable in terms of the negation of false?
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2015-06-01T14:18:35Z nyef: (That is, is a boolean true value only representable with a specifier of the form (NOT NULL) or similar?)
2015-06-01T14:18:48Z Zhivago: There is only one empty set. :)
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2015-06-01T14:19:14Z Zhivago: But you could certainly specify it in other terms.
2015-06-01T14:19:26Z Zhivago: A selector function, for example.
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2015-06-01T14:19:54Z nyef: ... (SATISFIES IDENTITY)?
2015-06-01T14:20:06Z Zhivago: (lambda (true false) true) for true, and (lambda (true false) false) for false. :)
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2015-06-01T14:20:11Z nyef: That feels like a horrible pun.
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2015-06-01T14:20:34Z nyef: Zhivago: I'm talking about something suitable for TYPEP here. d-:
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2015-06-01T14:28:15Z devon: (list (lisp-implementation-type) (defstruct struct slot) (arglist '(setf struct-slot))) => ("Clozure Common Lisp" STRUCT (#:VALUE2 STRUCT)) ; but (value place) seems backwards, any idea why?
2015-06-01T14:29:47Z nyef: clhs 5.1.2.9
2015-06-01T14:29:48Z specbot: Other Compound Forms as Places: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_abi.htm
2015-06-01T14:30:00Z nyef: That would be why.
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2015-06-01T14:31:01Z nyef: Note that, specifically, this allows your places to use &OPTIONAL, &REST, and &KEY parameters.
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2015-06-01T14:33:54Z devon: nyef: thx, that makes sense.
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2015-06-01T14:38:01Z pjb: nyef: I guess we don't have much choice here, given that it's how true is defined by Common Lisp.
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2015-06-01T14:43:55Z jaimef: H4ns: poke
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2015-06-01T14:45:15Z H4ns: jaimef: sup
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2015-06-01T14:46:33Z jaimef: H4ns: any ipv6 equivalent for hunchentoot:real-remote-addr? did not see anything in the api
2015-06-01T14:47:59Z H4ns: jaimef: let me have a look.  i'd say that real-remote-addr should not be protocol specific, but i'm not sure.
2015-06-01T14:48:11Z jaimef: k
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2015-06-01T14:48:48Z jaimef: thanks
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2015-06-01T14:49:27Z H4ns: jaimef: it should be protocol agnostic.  how does it not work?
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2015-06-01T14:49:53Z jaimef: I get a string of the ipv4 address
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2015-06-01T14:50:25Z H4ns: what does the x-forwarded-for-header contain?
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2015-06-01T15:13:28Z Shinmera: scymtym: Ah, I see. I'll give that a shot, thanks.
2015-06-01T15:13:57Z jaimef: H4ns:  (format nil "{\"ip\":\"~A\",\"about\":\"/about\",\"The One True Editor\":\"Emacs\"}" (hunchentoot:real-remote-add hunchentoot:*request*))) is what http://jsonip.org is
2015-06-01T15:14:54Z H4ns: jaimef: you've los me
2015-06-01T15:14:58Z H4ns: lost
2015-06-01T15:15:17Z Shinmera: scymtym: That did the trick, thanks a bunch!
2015-06-01T15:15:25Z H4ns: jaimef: i would like to know what your proxy sends to your hunchentoot in the x-forwarded-for header.
2015-06-01T15:15:45Z jaimef: the ip address of the requester
2015-06-01T15:15:47Z jaimef: as a string
2015-06-01T15:15:56Z H4ns: the ipv6 address?
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2015-06-01T15:16:39Z jaimef: ahh, so what ever is sent is what is there. ok so this is a front end server issue. thanks
2015-06-01T15:16:42Z jaimef: no ipv4
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2015-06-01T15:17:19Z H4ns: right.  look at the source, it is easy to understand what is going on, i'd say
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2015-06-01T15:21:40Z jaimef: thanks for fixing jaimef
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2015-06-01T15:58:56Z jasom: If I want to generate some PDF tables in lisp, is there anything better than tt?
2015-06-01T15:59:22Z jasom: And for tt, I mean cl-typesetting
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2015-06-01T15:59:34Z jasom: It doesn't seem to support e.g. unicode characters
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2015-06-01T16:02:43Z Xach: i used cl-pdf last time, but i didn't generate anything outside of latin-1
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2015-06-01T16:04:25Z H4ns: jasom: i've had great success using cxml to generate fop and then using apache-fop for typesetting
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2015-06-01T16:22:56Z digiorgi_: how can i use in a package, all unexported symbols of a package without having to write the ::? In others words a trick to use unexported symblols as exported ones.
2015-06-01T16:23:35Z White_Flame: you could iterate the symbols of the package and import them programmatically
2015-06-01T16:23:46Z White_Flame: or in-package that package for the time being?
2015-06-01T16:24:43Z digiorgi_: but if i do in-package, i will intern some symbols in that package.
2015-06-01T16:24:48Z White_Flame: right
2015-06-01T16:24:58Z digiorgi_: i want a separate unit-testing package (:
2015-06-01T16:25:59Z nyef: I use :IMPORT-FROM in my test-package DEFPACKAGE and name the extra symbols that I need. If there's more than a small handful then I'm doing something wrong.
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2015-06-01T16:33:46Z pjb: digiorgi: (in-package "THIS-PACKAGE") (import (let (ss) (do-symbols (s "OTHER-PACKAGE") (push s ss)) ss))
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2015-06-01T17:03:57Z Xach: luis: do you want to merge binghe's corman updates? i was thinking of doing it today otherwise
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2015-06-01T17:16:29Z luis: Xach: do you plan on doing anything besides clicking "merge"?
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2015-06-01T17:18:16Z luis: (e.g. were you thinking about cleaning up the commits or something?)
2015-06-01T17:20:50Z |3b| wonders if i still have any old corman trees around somewhere so i can try to figure out if that hash table bug is still there
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2015-06-01T17:57:18Z drmeister: Will a reader macro like [ with read-delimited list properly handle nested [...]?
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2015-06-01T17:59:00Z drmeister: read-delimited-list would use #\] as the terminating character.  Of course it does - right?  It's how the reader reads parentheses.
2015-06-01T17:59:13Z sellout-: drmeister: Yeah, that should work.
2015-06-01T17:59:14Z drmeister: Grr.  How the reader reads s-expressions.
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2015-06-01T18:04:27Z Xach: luis: no
2015-06-01T18:04:38Z Xach: luis: i was thinking about blogging about it
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2015-06-01T18:15:24Z rick-monster: hi anyone know if hu.dwim.stefil is still maintained?
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2015-06-01T18:20:10Z kami: rick-monster: yes, it is. I use it on current sbcl.
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2015-06-01T18:21:41Z kami: rick-monster: there is a fork called Fiasco, which you can find here: https://github.com/capitaomorte/fiasco
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2015-06-01T18:22:47Z rick-monster: I have a fix for bug affecting stefil, hu.dwim.stefil and fiasco on case-sensitive allegro and just trying to establish whether hu.dwim will look at a patch...
2015-06-01T18:24:09Z kami: rick-monster: I cannot speak for them, but I'm sure attila_lendvai will look at it
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2015-06-01T18:51:23Z rick-monster: hmmm - stefil's package-agnostic approach seems to work better for testing a large and messy codebase mostly residing in a single package...
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2015-06-01T19:21:50Z skrue: Xach: thanks for putting up the naggum archive
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2015-06-01T19:27:04Z Xach: no problem
2015-06-01T19:27:15Z Xach hopes to add more people soon
2015-06-01T19:28:13Z luis: rick-monster: you don't have to use Fiasco's define-test-package. It's just a helper.
2015-06-01T19:29:22Z luis: Xach: I'm unsure why this is version 3.02. I don't think there was a version 3.01 was there?
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2015-06-01T19:32:13Z Xach: luis: i don't know, sorry.
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2015-06-01T19:32:37Z Xach: luis: what made it be 3.02?
2015-06-01T19:32:46Z Xach: something from binghe?
2015-06-01T19:33:10Z luis: Yes.
2015-06-01T19:33:31Z Xach: luis: i think there was a 3.01 bugfix release years ago
2015-06-01T19:33:41Z Xach: luis: google suggests there was, anyway
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2015-06-01T19:33:46Z luis: oh, cool.
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2015-06-01T19:36:03Z luis: Anyway, blogging time for you. :) I need a break from the blogosphere spotlights after that super mediatic pretty-printer series.
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2015-06-01T19:37:23Z Xach: how pretty was my printer
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2015-06-01T19:39:02Z Xach fires up virtualbox to try it
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2015-06-01T19:45:09Z luis: It's funny when you start looking for some apropos widget or a class browser or something. I hadn't tried Corman Lisp in about 10 years; I had forgotten how spartan it was.
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2015-06-01T19:51:49Z Shinmera: Xach: fe[nl]ix mentioned to me that you have a google calendar where all the lisp meetups are noted down. Does that still exist, and if so, could you hand me a link to that?
2015-06-01T19:52:46Z rick-monster: luis - struggling to see how fiasco handles hierarchy of tests without using packages.
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2015-06-01T19:53:23Z luis: Shinmera: http://planet.lisp.org/meetings/
2015-06-01T19:53:40Z Shinmera: luis: Ah, thanks.
2015-06-01T19:54:08Z luis: rick-monster: I struggle to see how Fiasco handles tests hierarchies with packages, actually.
2015-06-01T19:54:19Z rick-monster: in-suite seems to be missing, so I tried to manually hack it by pushing sub-tests onto the children hash of the top-level test but that tehn seems to be broken...
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2015-06-01T19:54:36Z luis: rick-monster: in-suite is missing? That's surprising.
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2015-06-01T19:55:44Z rick-monster: I thought probably it was a decision to enforce separate test package from application code
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2015-06-01T19:56:21Z luis: rick-monster: oh, I see that capitaomorte removed them for some reason.
2015-06-01T19:56:24Z luis: Meh.
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2015-06-01T20:05:35Z luis: rick-monster: oh well, feel free to implement test hierarchies in Fiasco. Otherwise, hu.dwim.stefil should work for you.
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2015-06-01T20:09:53Z Xach: nice, corman 3.02 runs just fine in my vm
2015-06-01T20:10:36Z luis: Did you get a UAC pop up?
2015-06-01T20:10:43Z rick-monster: ok have my test harness working again now with hu.dwim.stefil and emailed a patch to atilla
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2015-06-01T21:12:48Z lmj`: I have a couple restarts that require my debugger hook to be present. Since (break) bypasses debugger hooks, users see useless/unusable restarts during a breakpoint. I would like to hide them using :test-function, however there isn't a way to differentiate between a breakpoint (when the restarts should be hidden) and non-interactive invocation (when they should be active).
2015-06-01T21:13:34Z lmj`: I guess there's no solution, but maybe I've missed something.
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2015-06-01T21:36:22Z dilated_dinosaur: hey all- does asdf cache files some place? trying to fix cl-png and i cant seem to get quicklisp to load png-test system
2015-06-01T21:39:04Z Shinmera: dilated_dinosaur: it usually caches in ~/.cache/common-lisp . You can usually force recompilation with (asdf:load-system thing :force T)
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2015-06-01T21:42:05Z Xach: dilated_dinosaur: what happens when you try?
2015-06-01T21:42:20Z dilated_dinosaur: Shinmera, thanks
2015-06-01T21:43:21Z dilated_dinosaur: it loads happy as pie. trouble is i was hacking at it and put in a whole bunch of erroneous load files, which it should abort on, but it loads happily
2015-06-01T21:43:46Z dilated_dinosaur: but then i cant access the package (the namespace is just undefined)
2015-06-01T21:43:58Z dilated_dinosaur: sorry if this is a touch newbish
2015-06-01T21:44:16Z Xach: Erroneous load files?
2015-06-01T21:45:01Z dilated_dinosaur: yeah- so in xpng.asd (the name i am using for it) there is (:file "src/compat" :depends-on ("p"))
2015-06-01T21:45:05Z dilated_dinosaur: which does not exist
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2015-06-01T21:48:27Z dilated_dinosaur: Shinmera, thats the trick. thanks!
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2015-06-01T21:56:36Z Xach: ah
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2015-06-01T21:57:01Z Xach: (asdf:clear-system "xpng") will also make it forget what it knows about the system definition, i think, but that might not be enough
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2015-06-01T21:58:26Z dilated_dinosaur: :)
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2015-06-01T22:32:32Z bananabas: any of u guys used mathematica?
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2015-06-01T22:50:23Z pjb: bananabas: I have used Mathematica.
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2015-06-01T22:52:02Z bananabas: pjb, is it true its very similar to lisp?
2015-06-01T22:52:33Z pjb: is it true that bananas are similar to oranges?  They're both agrumes.
2015-06-01T22:53:04Z pjb: drmeister: the standard reader macro #\( cannot use read-delimited-list to read lists, since it has to handle dotted-list.  See my reader or any other implementation reader for example.
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2015-06-01T22:55:19Z emaczen: What is recommended for processing video with vp8 codec?
2015-06-01T22:56:08Z pjb: Well, you'd have to write the vp8 codec in lisp to begin with.
2015-06-01T22:56:34Z nyef: What, FFI bindings need not apply?
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2015-06-01T22:57:32Z bananabas: pjb, ok, let me rephrase. would it be possible to implement something like mathematica using lisp?
2015-06-01T22:57:43Z emaczen: I can probably convert the encoding, but is there and recommendations? If not I can probably use ABCL and some java-interop
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2015-06-01T22:59:01Z pjb: bananabas: it has been done. Several times.
2015-06-01T22:59:07Z pjb: bananabas: cf. maxima
2015-06-01T22:59:34Z pjb: nyef: exactly.
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2015-06-01T23:00:47Z bananabas: pjb, several times?
2015-06-01T23:01:16Z Xach: bananabas: maxima and macsyma
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2015-06-01T23:07:05Z bananabas: vrrm, axiom is written in lisp? what dialect?
2015-06-01T23:07:27Z vrrm: common lisp (freecas is built with ecl)
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2015-06-01T23:08:10Z vrrm: (probably others will work too)
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2015-06-02T02:12:52Z jasom: 'Lovingly hand-picked local serifs trace that fine line between "I'm a free spirit with a stoic personality" and "God save the Queen".' <-- A line from the codex README
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2015-06-02T02:34:34Z jasom: emaczen: I call out to ffmpeg
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2015-06-02T02:35:16Z jasom: emaczen: I'm not familiar with any ffmpeg FFI bindings, so I use the executable and FIFOs
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2015-06-02T03:21:42Z pillton: Has someone done something like this? http://paste.lisp.org/display/148984
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2015-06-02T03:53:45Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-06-02T03:53:51Z pillton: G'day beach.
2015-06-02T03:59:29Z Bicyclidine: a compiler first stage, but inlining everything?
2015-06-02T04:01:16Z jasom: pillton: I've not seen it before; there's probably a lot of corner-cases
2015-06-02T04:01:16Z pillton: Bicyclidine: It has a special name in lambda calculus. I forget what the name is. It is the other form of evaluation to what is done in common lisp.
2015-06-02T04:01:47Z pillton: I can get pretty far with symbol macrolets.
2015-06-02T04:02:02Z pillton dives in.
2015-06-02T04:02:17Z jasom: pillton: don't forget to construct a list and then use destructuring-bind otherwise you run into name conflicts
2015-06-02T04:02:44Z pillton: That is what the symbol macrolet is for. All of the symbols in the lambda list get replaced with unique names.
2015-06-02T04:02:54Z jasom: oh
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2015-06-02T04:03:48Z pillton: Then it should be just nesting the lexical environment of the arguments before the main body.
2015-06-02T04:04:09Z Bicyclidine: weak head normal form, or something
2015-06-02T04:05:16Z pillton: This came about when I reduced the run time of some of my code from ~60 seconds to 6 seconds by using type declarations.
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2015-06-02T04:05:39Z pillton: But I lose generality in the process.
2015-06-02T04:06:39Z Zhivago: pillton: Type-specialization of functions?
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2015-06-02T04:06:54Z pillton: Yes.
2015-06-02T04:08:03Z Zhivago: I think that perhaps C++ has approximately the right idea there.
2015-06-02T04:08:29Z pillton: I have thought that, but it makes me cry.
2015-06-02T04:08:54Z pillton: If this works then I will have all of the pieces in place.
2015-06-02T04:08:54Z jasom: pillton: inline declarations weren't enough?
2015-06-02T04:09:34Z pillton: jasom: Inlining is only partial generality. It is limited to the compilation unit from what I can tell.
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2015-06-02T04:10:00Z jasom: pillton: it ought not be
2015-06-02T04:10:29Z Zhivago: It isn't necessarily, but it also involves ... inlining everything.
2015-06-02T04:10:35Z jasom: pillton: it ought to be the current file, and any already compiled functions declared inline
2015-06-02T04:10:51Z jasom: Zhivago: well pillton's doing that manually, it appears...
2015-06-02T04:11:06Z Zhivago: Oh, I thought he was generating a specialized function.
2015-06-02T04:11:45Z pillton: It is complicated as the lambda list for the function is (array array fn1 fn2 fn3).
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2015-06-02T04:13:32Z jasom: On a separate topic, is it possible to load a system from a specific .asd file, rather from the normal search method?
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2015-06-02T04:14:44Z jasom: duh, I could just push a function to *system-definition-search-function*
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2015-06-02T04:24:30Z emaczen: How can I register an event through SBCL?
2015-06-02T04:25:04Z emaczen: Or is there an SBCL implementation of a general API?
2015-06-02T04:25:13Z pillton: What sort of event?
2015-06-02T04:25:32Z emaczen: files being added to a directory.
2015-06-02T04:25:55Z Zhivago: Perhaps some ffi to some system dependent watchering system?
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2015-06-02T04:28:36Z jasom: emaczen: google tells me this for linux: https://github.com/Ferada/cl-inotify  ; disclaimer: It was the first hit when searching for "lisp inotify" not something I can personally recommend
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2015-06-02T04:30:28Z jasom: emaczen: https://github.com/howeyc/cl-fsnotify seems to try and abstract over that
2015-06-02T04:30:45Z emaczen: jasom: Thanks, it looks promising
2015-06-02T04:30:49Z jasom: s/that/linux and BSDs way of monitoring files and directories
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2015-06-02T05:16:01Z loke: There seems to be two packages: inotify and cl-inotify
2015-06-02T05:17:16Z emaczen: all: It seems that event-driven processing is not integrated
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2015-06-02T05:53:38Z kami: Good morning.
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2015-06-02T07:50:11Z loz: good morning, guys =)
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2015-06-02T08:47:50Z loz: is there any common practice for figuring out errors in cl systems? like saving backtraces or something?
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2015-06-02T08:49:45Z splittist: loz: do you mean the specification of a system - as in ASDF - or just an error in CL code?
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2015-06-02T08:50:22Z loz: splittist: just in code
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2015-06-02T08:50:58Z splittist: loz: compile time, load time, or run time?
2015-06-02T08:51:11Z loz: splittist: run time
2015-06-02T08:51:26Z jackdaniel: is clsql updated sometimes?
2015-06-02T08:51:36Z loz: splittist: right now i have a main loop with handler which saves all errors into global errors parameter
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2015-06-02T08:51:46Z splittist: loz: why?
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2015-06-02T08:52:20Z loz: you can check errors later and fix them while most of the system is working
2015-06-02T08:52:53Z loz: but i just got #<error Cannot convert #<QL-HTTP::CBUF-PROGRESS {100AFAB293}> to a RUNES:ROD at 02-06-2015 09:51>
2015-06-02T08:52:53Z loz: and this is obviously not enough to fix a bug
2015-06-02T08:53:49Z Shinmera: loz: Have a look at Dissect if you want to save the backtrace and restarts as well.
2015-06-02T08:53:57Z splittist: I am more familiar with wanting to fail as early as possible, then using the interactive debugger to move up and down the stack to find the real problem. (Well, that and sprinkling FORMAT statements about the place.)
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2015-06-02T08:54:14Z Shinmera: Also what splittist said.
2015-06-02T08:54:18Z splittist: Or what Shinmera said.
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2015-06-02T08:55:04Z loz: splittist: i doubt you will interactively fix bug in the middle of the night :)
2015-06-02T08:55:31Z Shinmera: In my "framework-y" projects I usually have a *debugger* special variable that decides whether the debugger is invoked on a caught condition in some main loop or similar.
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2015-06-02T08:56:04Z splittist: loz: it sounds like you need more logging of the errors you're continuing past.
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2015-06-02T08:56:09Z Shinmera: So f.e. in my web framework when I need to debug it live I can set it to T, call the offending page (which I know through logs) and then debug interactively.
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2015-06-02T08:57:45Z loz: Shinmera: what do you use for logs?
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2015-06-02T08:57:56Z Shinmera: Verbose
2015-06-02T08:58:17Z Shinmera: (another one of my own projects, surprise!)
2015-06-02T08:58:26Z loz: :)
2015-06-02T08:58:36Z splittist: Shinmera likes his tooling IH.
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2015-06-02T08:58:52Z Shinmera: Eh, more like I'm just a very impatient man.
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2015-06-02T08:59:11Z loz: no wonders here, cl is the language you want to rewrite everything in
2015-06-02T08:59:17Z Shinmera: Too impatient to figure out how to bend existing systems to my will.
2015-06-02T09:00:20Z Shinmera: I should actually integrate Dissect into Verbose and fix a few other kludges with that some day.
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2015-06-02T09:03:43Z splittist: dissect:present could be a nice thing to have in logs, indeed
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2015-06-02T09:07:19Z Shinmera: Might also be useful to have something like (dissect:with-truncated-stack ...) to omit "boring" stack frames down the line.
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2015-06-02T13:09:14Z schjetne: I'm in full bike-shedding mode here
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2015-06-02T13:10:32Z schjetne: I'm dividing the company software into separate ASDF systems, but I still want to do all the configuration in a central location. I thought I'd use py-configparser to be nice to the sysadmin
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2015-06-02T13:12:11Z schjetne: Not sure whether to define the sections and load the files separately for every system, or make a common system to manage all the configuration
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2015-06-02T13:14:54Z schjetne: Probably the latter since loading the configuration must be done in each image's toplevel function
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2015-06-02T15:06:09Z troydm: Xach: hey! is this correct way to provide metadata? http://pastebin.com/ykEyA8aE
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2015-06-02T15:11:56Z Shinmera: troydm: That seems fine to me. Maybe consider also adding a :maintainer field (with the same thing as :author for now).
2015-06-02T15:12:08Z troydm: Shinmera: okey
2015-06-02T15:12:43Z Shinmera: A :version field would also be good, if possible in "x.x.x" format.
2015-06-02T15:13:55Z Shinmera: Just as a reference, my systems usually have the following info: https://github.com/Shinmera/qtools/blob/master/qtools.asd#L8
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2015-06-02T15:17:16Z Xach: troydm: looks good
2015-06-02T15:17:59Z Shinmera: Xach: has the discussion about required/non-required :description field reached any conclusions so far?
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2015-06-02T15:22:09Z H4ns has received several passive aggressive issues in various github repositories that apparently have made it into quicklisp with "incomplete" .asd files
2015-06-02T15:23:07Z H4ns: now we'll see dozens up stray system updates in the next quicklisp dist. :/
2015-06-02T15:23:12Z Xach: Shinmera: it seems that people do not want to add that info
2015-06-02T15:23:13Z H4ns: s/up/of/
2015-06-02T15:24:23Z jackdaniel: :description "You know, stuff. It does something of this, and a bit of that. Stuff."
2015-06-02T15:24:57Z H4ns: "temporary-file: a library to handle temporary files"
2015-06-02T15:25:00Z H4ns: \o/
2015-06-02T15:25:06Z dlowe: H4ns: I thought about sending pull reqs but it seemed presumptuous.
2015-06-02T15:25:46Z pjb: Xach: it's not that people don't want, but it's rather hard to write short descriptions for a lot of libraries.
2015-06-02T15:25:49Z H4ns: dlowe: i would not have minded at all
2015-06-02T15:25:57Z eudoxia: better to send a PR than raise a "pls fix" issue
2015-06-02T15:26:04Z eudoxia: where better means, more likely to impart a change
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2015-06-02T15:26:07Z dlowe: aren't all issues "pls fix"?
2015-06-02T15:26:13Z Xach: pjb: That has not been my experience.
2015-06-02T15:26:16Z pjb: with hints and example of "good style" short descriptions.
2015-06-02T15:26:23Z eudoxia: dlower: no, some are proposals or requests for new features
2015-06-02T15:26:38Z pjb: s/a lot of/some/
2015-06-02T15:26:51Z H4ns: i find it rather minionesque to go to random lisp library repositories and raise "missing :description" issues.  but maybe some people don't mind being minionesque
2015-06-02T15:27:17Z Xach: H4ns: Would you prefer I did it personally?
2015-06-02T15:27:34Z Xach: I asked people to help, and they have. I hope they have not been rude about it.
2015-06-02T15:28:32Z Xach: I have gotten open issues on my own projects that I forgot about.
2015-06-02T15:28:34Z H4ns: Xach: if you had opened the issues, i would have felt more positive. but then, it is no big deal at all.
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2015-06-02T15:28:47Z pjb: H4ns: programming is still a matter of details and precision.
2015-06-02T15:29:02Z pjb: H4ns: until you give free access to AI to patch your programs…
2015-06-02T15:30:40Z H4ns: Xach: three of the libraries (xhtmlgen, stem and unit-test) are actually just packaged versions of things that i have not written, though, and that i'm never going to maintain.  and temporary-file is really totally obsolete and should propably just die.
2015-06-02T15:30:41Z Shinmera: H4ns: Xach: That doesn't sound encouraging.
2015-06-02T15:31:25Z Xach: H4ns: that's good to know
2015-06-02T15:31:54Z H4ns: Xach: is that an american idiom comparable to "how interesting" in british english? :)
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2015-06-02T15:34:05Z Shinmera tries to imagine what kind of hell would break loose if Xach were to enforce a :version field and scheme.
2015-06-02T15:34:10Z Xach: Not sure. But I think it is good to know that some libraries are effectively not maintained
2015-06-02T15:34:20Z Xach: Shinmera: an unlikely hell, as that does not interest me at all
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2015-06-02T15:35:08Z H4ns: Xach: i'm not sure, but i seem to remember that there is some umbrella github organisation that adopts orphaned lisp libraries.  do you know something about that?  lisp-gardeners?
2015-06-02T15:35:18Z Shinmera: sharplispers
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2015-06-02T15:36:09Z Xach: H4ns: sharplispers is it, and i don't mind adopting more stuff for minor updates.
2015-06-02T15:36:16Z Xach wears a sharplisper hat sometimes
2015-06-02T15:36:47Z H4ns: Xach: great, then why don't you adopt xhtmlgen, stem and unit-test?  and maybe we can completely kill temporary-file?
2015-06-02T15:37:00Z Xach: H4ns: ok
2015-06-02T15:37:25Z Xach: H4ns: what about killing the first three?
2015-06-02T15:37:29Z Xach can check download stats
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2015-06-02T15:43:25Z H4ns: Xach: i think they're in quicklisp because of bknr-web, but i would not mind seeing that be removed from quicklisp either.
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2015-06-02T15:51:28Z mlybdnm: Is there something like ext:long-float-digits (CLISP) in SBCL?
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2015-06-02T15:53:19Z mlybdnm: Also is there a way to coerce multiple function parameters to be of type double-float without the three calls of function `setf' and `coerce'?
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2015-06-02T16:15:42Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2015-06-02T16:16:09Z Shinmera: Hullo beach
2015-06-02T16:16:57Z pjb: mlybdnm: use let, not setf. (defun f (x y) (let ((x (coerce x 'double-float)) (y (coerce y 'double-float))) …)  If you do that a lot, write a macro.
2015-06-02T16:20:00Z drmeister: Hi beach
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2015-06-02T16:21:07Z drmeister: I'm following your lead wrt serialization. I'll find out if it will work for my needs.
2015-06-02T16:21:38Z drmeister: Do you serialize hash tables that way?
2015-06-02T16:22:26Z beach: I haven't done hash tables.  It is complicated for technical reasons.  You are not allowed to write a method on print-object that specializes on hash tables.
2015-06-02T16:23:04Z Shinmera: in Universal-Config I serialise hash tables with {test field value, field value ... }
2015-06-02T16:23:34Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-06-02T16:25:03Z jasom: mlybdnm: also consider changing your default-float-format to double
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2015-06-02T16:26:42Z pjb: You can even add a type declaration: in the inner scope: (defun f (x y) (let ((x (coerce x 'double-float)) (y (coerce y 'double-float))) (declare (double-float x y))  …))
2015-06-02T16:27:06Z pjb: you couldn't do that with setf.
2015-06-02T16:27:37Z drmeister: What are the underlying reasons for why we are prohibited from writing print-object methods for hash tables? Because I merrily went ahead and wrote one.
2015-06-02T16:28:03Z pjb: drmeister: because the implementation may already have one defined.
2015-06-02T16:28:13Z pjb: drmeister: as an implementer, you can definitely write one!
2015-06-02T16:29:00Z beach: Furthermore, there is a restriction on PRINT-OBJECT.  As I recall, the consequences are undefined if you specialize on the stream parameter.
2015-06-02T16:29:02Z pjb: drmeister: you must understand the two sides of the contract (the clhs).  It is expressed from the  client point of view, not the implementer.
2015-06-02T16:29:25Z pjb: Yes, and again, because the implementation may define such specializations.
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2015-06-02T16:30:40Z pjb: An implementation could _document_ the possibility of defining methods on standard objects and stream, as an extension of CL. (Programs doing so in that implementation would still be non-conforming, but they could be defined).
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2015-06-02T16:34:37Z beach: drmeister: pjb is right, of course.  As the implementer, you do what you want.
2015-06-02T16:35:10Z drmeister: It's good to be implementor
2015-06-02T16:35:24Z pjb: All these constraints are put on conforming programs, so that implementers have more freedoms to do whatever they want to simplify or optimize their implementation.
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2015-06-02T17:01:13Z mlybdnm: pjb: Are you around?
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2015-06-02T17:03:43Z pjb: Yes
2015-06-02T17:03:56Z Xach: pjb is always around. when there was one set of footprints, he carried you, and will send you a message hours later just in case.
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2015-06-02T17:12:12Z mlybdnm: pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149001 <- how could you further optimise it, or at least silence the warnings such as "forced to do GENERIC", "unable to do inline float arithmethic"...?
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2015-06-02T17:12:40Z pjb: mlybdnm: You can even add a type declaration: in the inner scope: (defun f (x y) (let ((x (coerce x 'double-float)) (y (coerce y 'double-float))) (declare (double-float x y))  …))
2015-06-02T17:13:03Z pjb: mlybdnm: I'm not really a specialist of optimization. You could better ask everybody and get more advices.
2015-06-02T17:13:29Z mlybdnm: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149001 <- how could you further optimise it, or at least silence the warnings such as "forced to do GENERIC", "unable to do inline float arithmethic"...?
2015-06-02T17:13:33Z mlybdnm: mlybdnm: Thanks.
2015-06-02T17:13:34Z mlybdnm: pjb: Thanks.
2015-06-02T17:13:35Z pjb: mlybdnm: Use double-float literals, if you want to compute with double floats!
2015-06-02T17:13:44Z pjb: 0.01d0 2.0d0 1.0d0 etc.
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2015-06-02T17:16:38Z mlybdnm: I wonder how to make the warnings disappear though.
2015-06-02T17:17:24Z pjb: I (- 1 pt) is a generic operation when pt is known to be a double-float.
2015-06-02T17:17:35Z pjb: (- 1.0d0 pt) is a specialized double-float operation when pt is known to be a double-float.
2015-06-02T17:18:38Z pjb: (/ 1 2) returns a rational, not a double-float.  multiplying a rational with a double-float is a generic operation.   Multiplying 0.5d0 with a double-float is a specialized double-float operation.
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2015-06-02T17:18:57Z pjb: mlybdnm: this is not rocket science, a 5 years old could understand it…
2015-06-02T17:19:16Z pjb: you know, square pegs in square holes, round pegs in round holes.
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2015-06-02T17:20:25Z |3b|: you can't get rid of the notes, since as it says it doesn't (and can't) know the types of the arguments in advance
2015-06-02T17:20:49Z |3b|: well, some of the notes
2015-06-02T17:21:22Z oconnore: mlybdnm: something like http://gbbopen.org/hyperdoc/ref-declared-numerics.html can make it nicer
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2015-06-02T17:22:40Z |3b|: you can get rid of one by verifying it is a non-negative value before taking square-root
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2015-06-02T17:25:22Z |3b|: depending on how you use it, you might be able to get better performance by inlining it, since that way if it knows you call it with double floats it can skip the conversion
2015-06-02T17:26:07Z |3b|: and similarly for returning the result (since normally it has to allocate space for the result since a double/long float doesn't fit in an immediate value)
2015-06-02T17:26:51Z nyef: You could do a double-bounce thing. Have an inlined wrapper that does the conversion, and the main function simply declare that the arguments truly are of the right type.
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2015-06-02T17:59:05Z drmeister: I just added code to print floats properly to Clasp.  My floats are now printing 1.0 --> 1.0d0     What is making it print "1.0d0" rather than "1.0" ?
2015-06-02T18:00:09Z |3b|: d0 is double float
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2015-06-02T18:01:13Z drmeister: Yes - and I see that *read-default-float-format* was 'single-float and so doubles were printing as 1.0d0
2015-06-02T18:01:27Z |3b|: 1.0 is whatever *read-default-float-format* is
2015-06-02T18:01:34Z |3b|: right
2015-06-02T18:01:38Z drmeister: It didn't occur to me that a *read-xxx* variable would control printing but I understand now.
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2015-06-02T18:38:05Z drmeister: Folks - I'm adding support to my printer and reader to serialize C++ classes that extend Clasp Common Lisp ...
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2015-06-02T18:38:21Z drmeister: I've added support to print hash-tables as part of this...
2015-06-02T18:38:35Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/9EtGa2nP/
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2015-06-02T18:38:53Z drmeister: This generates:    {HASH-TABLE-EQL CORE::DATA #A(T (4) (KEYB (3 . #1=(1 . 2)) KEYA #1#)) CORE::REHASH-THRESHOLD 1.0d0 CORE::REHASH-SIZE 1.5d0}
2015-06-02T18:39:11Z drmeister: I'm using { } temporarily while I work out issues.
2015-06-02T18:39:42Z drmeister: Later I'll switch to a pair of Unicode characters and write a reader macro to read these and regenerate the objects.
2015-06-02T18:40:11Z drmeister: The idea is to read { with read-delimited-list and then (apply #'make-instance list)
2015-06-02T18:40:51Z drmeister: Does anyone see any problems doing this?
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2015-06-02T18:40:59Z Bike: You don't use keywords for the initargs, huh?
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2015-06-02T18:42:11Z drmeister: Bike: No, I realized that the CLHS doesn't require keywords for initargs (is that really true?) and this way I can use lots of initargs symbols and not pollute the keyword package.
2015-06-02T18:43:01Z drmeister: The C++ code that ultimately generates and consumes these keyword/value pairs for writing and reading objects becomes very simple.
2015-06-02T18:43:17Z Bike: it's true, i just didn't expect it
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2015-06-02T18:45:17Z Shinmera: drmeister: But these symbols are still interned in a package, so the "polluting" argument doesn't really apply imo
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2015-06-02T18:45:43Z Shinmera: I mean, you aren't saving anything, and only waste space by continuously having to print the package.
2015-06-02T18:46:11Z drmeister: Shinmera: For my chemistry code I've created a "CHEM-KW" package that will hold all of these symbols.  It's purpose is to be "polluted" with lots of chemistry related symbols.
2015-06-02T18:46:15Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/oEkxCpUc/
2015-06-02T18:46:38Z Shinmera: I still don't see why you wouldn't use keywords for the initargs.
2015-06-02T18:46:43Z drmeister: This is an example of a class that stores a logical operation that is applied to two branches of a molecular fragment.
2015-06-02T18:47:17Z drmeister: The keys are CHEM-KW:OP  CHEM-KW:LEFT  and CHEM-KW:RIGHT
2015-06-02T18:47:44Z drmeister: This function both generates the keyword/value pairs and consumes them to recreate a CHEM:LOGICAL object.
2015-06-02T18:48:44Z drmeister: I kinda wanted to leave the Common Lisp keyword space for Common Lisp code.
2015-06-02T18:48:51Z drmeister: I thought it would be cleaner.
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2015-06-02T18:49:02Z drmeister: I was also going to write a reader macro for chemistry keywords.
2015-06-02T18:49:18Z Shinmera: sounds more just like unnecessary complexity to me.
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2015-06-02T18:49:25Z drmeister: %OP %LEFT %RIGHT  where % is substituted with a Unicode symbol.
2015-06-02T18:49:39Z Shinmera: And you expect people to type that unicode symbol?
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2015-06-02T18:49:42Z drmeister: Maybe there is a Unicode symbol that looks like a beaker.
2015-06-02T18:49:56Z drmeister: Yes.
2015-06-02T18:50:04Z Shinmera: That's just lunacy.
2015-06-02T18:50:16Z drmeister: By slamming their foreheads against the keyboard.
2015-06-02T18:50:47Z drmeister: Seriously though - really?  You think it's a bad idea - should I really use regular keywords.   I can - it's no problem.
2015-06-02T18:51:02Z Shinmera: I don't see the point in creating an arbitrary distinction for this
2015-06-02T18:51:06Z drmeister: The code is going to fill up with keywords though.
2015-06-02T18:51:09Z Shinmera: You already have the distinction in the class names.
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2015-06-02T18:51:21Z drmeister: (make-atom :name :C1 :element :C :hybridization :sp3)
2015-06-02T18:51:41Z Shinmera: Why also keywords for the types?
2015-06-02T18:51:56Z drmeister: Rather than (make-atom :name %C1 :element %C :hybridization %sp3)  Where % is some Unicode character that looks like a beaker.
2015-06-02T18:52:04Z Shinmera: For that it would make more sense to use non-keyword symbols, so you could have a separate package of your "own" types.
2015-06-02T18:52:11Z drmeister: Symbols for everything.  Strings are stupid.
2015-06-02T18:53:15Z drmeister: I guess we are talking about two different things.  You make a good point.   I'll still have the CHEM-KW package for atom names, element names, hybridization names, residue names, molecule names etc.
2015-06-02T18:53:21Z Shinmera: So, again, why %C and not just 'c or 'my-chemistry-whatnot:c (depending on current package)?
2015-06-02T18:53:31Z drmeister: What we are discussing here is using keyword symbols for initargs
2015-06-02T18:54:16Z drmeister: Because I don't want to pollute the :CHEM package with all of these names.  The :CHEM package is for chemistry classes, functions etc.
2015-06-02T18:54:26Z drmeister: Things that don't change from session to session.
2015-06-02T18:54:42Z drmeister: The :CHEM-KW package is for names.
2015-06-02T18:56:08Z drmeister: Just to reiterate - my idea was to have a :CHEM package for all of the chemistry functions/classes etc and a :CHEM-KW package that stores names of entities created using the functionality in :CHEM.
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2015-06-02T18:56:09Z Shinmera: I don't really know enough about what your actual system is to be able to give any further input.
2015-06-02T18:56:17Z akkad: are there any cl packages to collect unix system information?
2015-06-02T18:56:24Z drmeister: I have a LOT of temporary names to deal with.
2015-06-02T18:56:37Z dim: akkad: I had a very simple one in a custom app
2015-06-02T18:56:40Z Shinmera: akkad: what kind of information?
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2015-06-02T18:57:01Z dim: basically read some /proc files and displayed basic things (iowait, io bandwidth in MBps)
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2015-06-02T18:57:20Z drmeister: I used to use strings when I used C++&Python  but strings are slow and stupid.
2015-06-02T18:58:10Z dim: sometimes it's all you have
2015-06-02T18:58:24Z Shinmera: I wouldn't want people using anything but strings for text.
2015-06-02T18:58:40Z drmeister: Shinmera: You raise a good point though - I'll use keyword symbols to label these fields for serialization.
2015-06-02T18:59:45Z akkad: Shinmera: /dev/kmem groveller
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2015-06-02T19:00:05Z akkad: parsing /proc is probably the most portable
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2015-06-02T19:00:17Z drmeister: It's not text.   Carbon is Carbon, Alanine is Alanine.   It makes more sense to use symbols to label them than strings like "Alanine".  It makes more sense to label fifty different residues CHEM-KW:ALANINE than to label them all with strings containing "ALANINE"
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2015-06-02T19:01:18Z drmeister: Because CHEM-KW:ALANINE means one thing.  Strings need to be compared character by character.  Symbols do not - so they are faster.
2015-06-02T19:01:47Z H4ns: akkad: hahaha!  most portable among linux!
2015-06-02T19:01:51Z H4ns: *facepalm*
2015-06-02T19:02:16Z akkad: is there anything else?
2015-06-02T19:02:28Z akkad: this coming from a long time bsd bigot btw
2015-06-02T19:02:31Z drmeister: I know we aren't arguing about this, I'm just core-dumping my years of thinking in case someone has thoughts on it.  Common Lisp gives me symbols - I thought I would use them here where they seem to be more appropriate than string based names.
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2015-06-02T19:02:54Z Shinmera: drmeister: Seems fine to me. I'm just saying, symbols aren't always the right thing either.
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2015-06-02T19:07:23Z phf: amusingly enough there's an alembic symbol in unicode, but no beaker
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2015-06-02T19:14:10Z dim: drmeister: do you GC your symbols?
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2015-06-02T19:14:35Z dim: akkad: /proc comes from plan9, that's about how portable it is
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2015-06-02T19:16:10Z p_l: the /proc filesystem shows up in few other OSes (I think Solaris adopted it as well?)
2015-06-02T19:16:45Z p_l: a bunch of others also decided that having ps and the like use special syscalls was perhaps not the best
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2015-06-02T19:33:27Z shka: dim: do you actually need to GC symbols?
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2015-06-02T19:36:01Z drmeister: shka: There isn't much turn-over for symbols. My feeling is that they are interned and very rarely discarded.
2015-06-02T19:36:26Z drmeister: But in principle, yes they should be garbage collected like everything else.
2015-06-02T19:36:32Z Shinmera: They're still just objects. When all references are gone, they should be GCed
2015-06-02T19:36:40Z francogrex: this is clearly wrong: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149010 but is this concept possible?
2015-06-02T19:37:01Z francogrex: to have a slot value as an instance of its own class?
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2015-06-02T19:38:39Z drmeister: francogrex: Wouldn't creating of one instance start an infinite loop of creation of other instances?
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2015-06-02T19:38:50Z drmeister: s/creating of/creation of/
2015-06-02T19:39:43Z francogrex: i would guess yes
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2015-06-02T19:40:54Z francogrex: somehow in java it can be doable... like http://paste.lisp.org/display/149007 zcir
2015-06-02T19:41:21Z francogrex: but I am sure I am not following the same concept in lisp here
2015-06-02T19:41:30Z francogrex: in the lisp code I mean
2015-06-02T19:41:54Z Shinmera: that's a static field.
2015-06-02T19:42:41Z francogrex: I know but remove the static
2015-06-02T19:42:46Z francogrex: still ok
2015-06-02T19:42:51Z oGMo: doubtful
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2015-06-02T19:44:08Z Shinmera: no it isn't still ok.
2015-06-02T19:44:46Z Shinmera: public class a{a a = new a(); public static void main(String[] args){new a();}} => stack overflow as expected.
2015-06-02T19:45:03Z oGMo: i didn't have a javac handy but i can't imagine any other result
2015-06-02T19:45:16Z drmeister: Shinmera: Ugh - switching to the keyword package for initargs causes symbol scraping problems because C++ variables with the same name end up being defined in more than one place.  (sigh)
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2015-06-02T19:45:32Z pjb: Yes, you miss a static in there.
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2015-06-02T19:46:04Z drmeister: To solve this I can't have local symbol tables in the Clasp directories anymore - I'll have to have one global symbol table (groan).
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2015-06-02T19:46:10Z oGMo: you could similarly use :allocation :class i think, but i'm not sure why you _would_
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2015-06-02T19:50:14Z francogrex: it orks I am telling you
2015-06-02T19:50:17Z francogrex: works
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2015-06-02T19:54:30Z francogrex: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149010#1 compiles fine and works ok though it seems like zscir is behaving as if its static...
2015-06-02T19:54:33Z francogrex: hmm
2015-06-02T19:55:27Z oGMo: forget to save the buffer?
2015-06-02T19:56:10Z oGMo: it can't work, and if it does your java is broken, and beyond that the question is _why would you do this_, in java _or_ CL
2015-06-02T19:56:12Z francogrex: :) no oGMo  I didn't. but something is not right
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2015-06-02T19:57:46Z francogrex: oGMo: ok it's not useful as such.... but I wanted to know how to have an object as a slot value
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2015-06-02T19:58:22Z francogrex: forget this silly recursion experience... just any other instantiated object
2015-06-02T19:58:23Z oGMo: you set it there like any other
2015-06-02T19:58:33Z oGMo: or (make-instance ..) it
2015-06-02T19:59:00Z francogrex: yes is it in :initform I (make-instance ..) ?
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2015-06-02T19:59:59Z oGMo: that's one way
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2015-06-02T20:02:25Z Shinmera prefers to use :default-initargs where possible nowadays
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2015-06-02T20:05:54Z drmeister: Shinmera: How does :default-initargs work?
2015-06-02T20:06:13Z Shinmera: drmeister: (defclass foo ((mything :initarg :bla)) (:default-initargs :bla "whatnot"))
2015-06-02T20:06:51Z Shinmera: It makes the defclass form feel less crowded to me.
2015-06-02T20:07:01Z drmeister: Also, why should initarg's be keyword arguments?
2015-06-02T20:07:02Z francogrex: I'm getting the keyword argument not a symbol: (ZCIR :INITFORM (MAKE-INSTANCE 'something) ...) ...
2015-06-02T20:07:22Z drmeister: Rather, why should initarg's be keyword symbols?
2015-06-02T20:07:50Z drmeister: It's what everyone expects I know but from my reading of the CLHS it isn't necessary.
2015-06-02T20:08:02Z Shinmera: drmeister: for the same reason that key args in functions are keyword symbols.
2015-06-02T20:08:03Z dlowe: it's been suggested that they shouldn't be
2015-06-02T20:08:22Z drmeister: dlowe: Could you expand on that?
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2015-06-02T20:08:53Z dlowe: If you don't use keyword symbols,  you can subclass in your own package without worrying about colliding initargs
2015-06-02T20:09:48Z Shinmera: Also, just from a purely aesthetic markup viewpoint, /not/ having keywords looks really bad.
2015-06-02T20:10:34Z drmeister: Shinmera: I don't disagree with you on that.   Keywords have a nice look to them in an argument list.
2015-06-02T20:11:14Z Shinmera: It's not so much having a nice look to them, as not having the alternating colour scheme makes it really hard to read, unless you put each pair on separate lines, which in looks really bad very often.
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2015-06-02T20:11:39Z drmeister: They seem to be overused at times though:  (with-open-file (fin "FOO.TXT" :direction :input :if-exists :error)) ... )
2015-06-02T20:11:54Z dlowe: oh, yeah. I agree that I'd rather see keywords. But it's worth considering the other side.
2015-06-02T20:12:01Z drmeister: Whoops - too many close parentheses.
2015-06-02T20:12:05Z Xach: drmeister: i worked with guys who quoted keywords-as-data
2015-06-02T20:12:10Z dlowe: drmeister: I don't mind that so much as :if-does-not-exist
2015-06-02T20:12:14Z Shinmera: drmeister: What would you use instead of that there?
2015-06-02T20:12:21Z Xach: drmeister: e.g. (... :direction ':input :if-exists ':error)
2015-06-02T20:12:38Z Xach: It was an interesting choice
2015-06-02T20:12:39Z drmeister: Shinmera: I'm not proposing anything.
2015-06-02T20:12:57Z drmeister: Xach: Interesting - I may start doing that.
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2015-06-02T20:13:18Z Shinmera: I suppose a good idea would have been if string designators had been allowed instead. That would allow :direction 'input etc.
2015-06-02T20:13:23Z drmeister: Shinmera: I propose quoting keywords as data e.g. (... :direction ':input :if-exists ':error)
2015-06-02T20:13:29Z Shinmera: Though that would introduce string tests, so
2015-06-02T20:13:38Z dlowe isn't a fan of string designators.
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2015-06-02T20:13:46Z drmeister: Yeah - string designators suck.
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2015-06-02T20:14:03Z Shinmera: What's the rationale for that?
2015-06-02T20:14:09Z dlowe: keywords are just fine for "symbols that don't really belong in a single package"
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2015-06-02T20:23:25Z emaczen: With ABCL how do I import a java class from the REPL?
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2015-06-02T20:23:43Z emaczen: I asked in #abcl, but it looks like nobody is listening there.
2015-06-02T20:24:48Z Xach: emaczen: those who know might be sleeping
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2015-06-02T20:25:10Z emaczen: Xach: Didn't you write a blog post about ABCL and swing?
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2015-06-02T20:27:47Z fourier: "/ignore -channels #emacs,#lisp,#fsf * JOINS PARTS QUITS NICKS"
2015-06-02T20:27:52Z fourier: "/ignore -channels #emacs,#lisp,#fsf * JOINS PARTS QUITS NICKS"
2015-06-02T20:28:16Z Xach: emaczen: no
2015-06-02T20:28:30Z Xach: emaczen: i have not used abcl except for some light testing
2015-06-02T20:29:53Z emaczen: Xach: What is this: http://xach.livejournal.com/310363.html
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2015-06-02T20:34:55Z Xach: emaczen: That is a blog post that quotes another person's message about abcl and swing.
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2015-06-02T20:38:00Z emaczen: Xach: Do you know where frederico's code for commonlisp and swing is?
2015-06-02T20:38:06Z Xach: emaczen: no, sorry
2015-06-02T20:38:28Z emaczen: Xach: Thanks, I'll keep looking
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2015-06-02T20:44:07Z PuercoPop: Xach: the link in the blog post doesn't like to mail from Frederico but to an unrelated mail
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2015-06-02T20:48:01Z PuercoPop: It shoud point to this mail: https://lists.common-lisp.net/pipermail/armedbear-devel/2012-July/002469.html but instead points to one ending in 83
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2015-06-02T20:49:55Z Xach: PuercoPop: i wonder if it was correct in the past but made incorrect over time
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2015-06-02T20:57:25Z PuercoPop: No idea, maybe the recent commonlisp.net migration change the ml archives urls?
2015-06-02T20:58:48Z fe[nl]ix: dlowe: ever tried using non-keyword symbols for keyword args ?
2015-06-02T20:59:11Z Xach: PuercoPop: i wonder if that's possible
2015-06-02T20:59:18Z dlowe: fe[nl]ix: not I.
2015-06-02T21:00:12Z fe[nl]ix: dlowe: it makes for pretty obfuscated code
2015-06-02T21:00:34Z fe[nl]ix: like (foo 'a 'b 'c 'd)
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2015-06-02T21:02:02Z fe[nl]ix: or (foo 'a :a 'b :b)
2015-06-02T21:02:44Z PuercoPop: if you use the function from another package do you have to call it (foo 'some-package:a :a ...)?
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2015-06-02T21:03:57Z dlowe: fe[nl]ix: yeah, I can definitely see it
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2015-06-02T21:04:30Z francogrex: I started using abcl recently... emaczen the manual is quite detailed
2015-06-02T21:04:44Z francogrex: about java from lisp
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2015-06-02T21:05:34Z francogrex: and btw abcl is a good implementation I think in terms of ansi compliance it's the most... though that says little these days...
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2015-06-02T21:30:13Z dim: drmeister: my understanding for using keywords symbols is that you can then use them from any package without having to care about exporting and importing them
2015-06-02T21:30:31Z dim: drmeister: in the case of CL itself, it also allows not to care about shadowing user code
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2015-06-02T22:05:50Z small-wolf: Is there a way to get some type of immutable container in Common Lisp?
2015-06-02T22:07:00Z H4ns: small-wolf: what do you mean by that?
2015-06-02T22:09:27Z small-wolf: I came across this thread ( http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7254514/ ) and was wondering if immutable cons cells or arrays or something already existed in some form.
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2015-06-02T22:10:21Z H4ns: small-wolf: no, common lisp does not provide for immutable data structures.  you can add them using libraries, but that won't affect common lisp itself.
2015-06-02T22:11:02Z small-wolf: my vague sort of end goal is mimicking purely functional languages like clean or haskell.
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2015-06-02T22:11:21Z H4ns: small-wolf: you can straight down implement them in common lisp if you so choose.
2015-06-02T22:11:47Z H4ns: small-wolf: maybe look at fset, it is a library that implements immutable data structure.
2015-06-02T22:11:54Z H4ns: structureS
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2015-06-02T22:17:00Z Xach: The compiler won't do anything special with your immutable-by-convention data structures, though.
2015-06-02T22:17:11Z Xach: Not like when it's designed with immutability in mind
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2015-06-02T22:21:05Z small-wolf: is that what fset provides you with, immutability convention?
2015-06-02T22:21:09Z small-wolf: by*
2015-06-02T22:21:13Z H4ns: yes.
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2015-06-02T22:32:22Z pjb: small-wolf: closures are basically immutable, as long as no function in the closure provides mutation of the environment.
2015-06-02T22:33:43Z meister: dim: Thanks.
2015-06-02T22:35:50Z meister: There's another really good reason to use symbols rather than names.  The READable printed representation is a lot more compact.  It's not human readable anymore, too many #...# in there - but it's compact.
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2015-06-02T23:47:00Z bananabas: has anyone here used Julia?
2015-06-02T23:47:16Z pjb: This is not on topic.  Try ##lisp or #lispcafe.
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2015-06-02T23:55:45Z drmeister: How do I define a simple circular list?  (defparameter *x* #1=(cons 'foo #1#))  blows up on every CL I try it on.
2015-06-02T23:56:08Z pjb: ensure-circular or literal: '#1=(a . #1#)
2015-06-02T23:56:36Z drmeister: Why does what I wrote blow the stack?
2015-06-02T23:56:38Z Bike: drmeister: that's like (cons 'foo (cons 'foo ...etc...)), ie infinitely many function calls
2015-06-02T23:56:38Z pjb: (defun ensure-circular (list) (setf (cdr (last list)) list))
2015-06-02T23:56:39Z nyef: Wow. Circular code passed into the compiler?
2015-06-02T23:56:51Z pjb: drmeister: because your _source code_ is "infinite".
2015-06-02T23:56:59Z drmeister: I see.
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2015-06-02T23:57:30Z pjb: it's not conforming, so implementers have it easy and don't have to check for circular source code, but may blow the stack. So they do blow the stack.
2015-06-02T23:57:47Z pjb: But if you wanted to be nice to newbies, you could _detect_ circular code, and issue a nice error message instead.
2015-06-02T23:58:14Z drmeister has a sorcerers apprentice moment.
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2015-06-03T00:06:33Z emaczen: I'm getting an lfp.h no such file error when trying to quickload "inotify" and it looks like it is coming from an iolib dependency
2015-06-03T00:08:39Z nyef: emaczen: Yes, you need to install libfixposix-dev or similar.
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2015-06-03T00:10:37Z emaczen: thanks nyef
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2015-06-03T00:10:57Z emaczen: nyef: Do you know what libfixposix is for fedora?
2015-06-03T00:11:04Z nyef: No clue.
2015-06-03T00:11:11Z nyef: Debian user here, sorry.
2015-06-03T00:11:38Z nyef: I think I might be required to trash-talk your preferred linux distro now, as well. d-:
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2015-06-03T00:12:13Z Bike: looks like there's a libfixposix-devel in fedora
2015-06-03T00:12:47Z emaczen: Bike: I used yumsearch with "libfixposix" and got nothing.
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2015-06-03T00:13:24Z Bike: oh, sorry, it's an rpm, just not in the package manager i don't think.
2015-06-03T00:14:05Z Bike: wow, if you google "fedora rpm" #lisp logs show up!
2015-06-03T00:14:09Z Bike: er, fedora libfixposix
2015-06-03T00:14:33Z nyef: Probably because almost nobody uses libfixposix besides us lispers.
2015-06-03T00:14:42Z Bike: probably.
2015-06-03T00:14:49Z emaczen: what is inside libfixposix?
2015-06-03T00:16:10Z Bike: "The purpose of libfixposix is to offer replacements for parts of POSIX whose behaviour is inconsistent across *NIX flavours."
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2015-06-03T00:50:40Z emaczen: now when I try quickloading "inotify" it tells me that it cannot find libfixposix.so -- I installed this by source
2015-06-03T00:50:49Z emaczen: from source
2015-06-03T00:51:35Z Bike: you actually put it in /usr/lib or wherever? try running 'ldconfig' first.
2015-06-03T00:52:05Z emaczen: I ran "sudo ldconfig"
2015-06-03T00:52:18Z emaczen: It is installed in /usr/local/lib
2015-06-03T00:52:58Z pillton: Just load it manually from your implementations dot file.
2015-06-03T00:53:40Z emaczen: pillton: (load "libfixposix.so") ?
2015-06-03T00:54:02Z pillton: (cffi:load-foreign-library "...")
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2015-06-03T00:57:03Z emaczen: pillton: It still gives me the same error which I try to (quickload :inotify)
2015-06-03T00:57:45Z pillton: Have a look at the source file and see if there is a dynamic variable you can set.
2015-06-03T00:57:57Z pillton: Or a logical pathname.
2015-06-03T00:58:14Z emaczen: in inotify?
2015-06-03T00:58:28Z pillton: I don't know where it is.
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2015-06-03T00:59:00Z Bike: sounds like inotify, unless it's loading another lisp dependency that uses lfp.
2015-06-03T00:59:43Z emaczen: ahhh, yes it is in iolib/syscalls
2015-06-03T01:00:08Z Bike: if iolib is failing to find lfp there's probably something wrong, since lfp was practically written for iolib
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2015-06-03T01:01:26Z emaczen: I'm going to try Ubuntu... lol
2015-06-03T01:01:45Z pillton: It has nothing to do with your OS.
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2015-06-03T01:02:05Z Bike: well, it might, though ubuntu and fedora probably use about the same ld.so
2015-06-03T01:02:10Z pillton: That would be like switching from pencil to pen to solve you math problem.
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2015-06-03T01:03:42Z emaczen: I could probably apt-get install libfixposix right?
2015-06-03T01:04:01Z emaczen: Isn't that what you all did?
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2015-06-03T01:04:22Z Bike: -dev, maybe
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2015-06-03T01:10:09Z pillton: emaczen: Open src/syscalls/ffi-functions-unix.lisp and comment out http://hastebin.com/ximuvifoyo.lisp
2015-06-03T01:10:31Z pillton: Then load the library manually from your implementation's dot file.
2015-06-03T01:10:45Z Bike: link's busted, at least on my end
2015-06-03T01:10:54Z Bike: oh, the .lisp
2015-06-03T01:11:16Z emaczen: pillton where is "src"
2015-06-03T01:11:25Z pillton: iolib/src/..
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2015-06-03T01:18:23Z drmeister: Does someone who understands the printer/reader and circularity detection have a moment to explain why this works?
2015-06-03T01:18:29Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/MoNHCFQp/
2015-06-03T01:18:50Z _schulte_: with cffi, how does one pass the addresses of a value to a C function? e.g., set_foo_in_arg(&arg)?
2015-06-03T01:19:55Z Bike: _schulte_: allocate it in C memory (foreign-alloc, with-foreign-pointer, etc)
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2015-06-03T01:20:34Z Bike: drmeister: foo's print object is recursive, since it just gets format to print the foo-a. that printing happens in the same dynamic extent as the overall printing, so it uses the same circularity checking (hashtable, or whatever)
2015-06-03T01:20:40Z drmeister: I'm defining a PRINT-OBJECT method for a class FOO that prints { FOO :a something } and then a reader macro for #\{ that reads what's between the curly brackets and APPLY's MAKE-INSTANCE.
2015-06-03T01:21:14Z _schulte_: Bike: fantastic! exactly what I needed, thanks
2015-06-03T01:21:23Z Bike: drmeister: btw, (set-macro-character #\} (get-macro-character #\) t) should let you elide the spaces, i think.
2015-06-03T01:21:41Z drmeister: Bike: But MAKE-INSTANCE must be invoked to create the instance of FOO so how does it get the instance of FOO to set the :A initarg?
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2015-06-03T01:22:19Z Bike: oh. hm, yes.
2015-06-03T01:22:27Z drmeister: It's the fixup for circularity that I don't get.  It works - and that's great but I'm banging my head against the wall trying to figure out how #:G598 gets fixed up to be the instance of FOO.
2015-06-03T01:23:50Z Bike: You know, I'm not sure.
2015-06-03T01:23:54Z drmeister: I need to understand this because I want to use a similar scheme to build C++ objects and I'm not sure what is necessary to make it work the same way.
2015-06-03T01:24:23Z Bike: oh, no, wait.
2015-06-03T01:24:32Z drmeister: This is a scheme that beach uses in Cleavir and I cooked up a pathologically circular version of it.
2015-06-03T01:24:55Z drmeister: I've implemented a couple of circularity detectors and I can't figure out how this works - what a trip.
2015-06-03T01:25:04Z drmeister: Yes?
2015-06-03T01:25:26Z Bike: sorry, i haven't really thought of this before.
2015-06-03T01:25:29Z nyef: So, the #:G598 is an obvious placeholder. Is the reader, knowing that it needs to do the backpatch, keeping track of the object CONTAINING that reference?
2015-06-03T01:25:37Z Bike: well, probably what happens is that... right, thank you.
2015-06-03T01:25:51Z Bike: so it makes-instance with some bullshit and alters it later.
2015-06-03T01:26:18Z nyef: Hrm. Except that that doesn't quite work either.
2015-06-03T01:26:28Z Bike: it's kind of hard to imagine how it would work in general, since #\{'s reader is arbitrary code.
2015-06-03T01:27:11Z Bike: like, you could say within a #1=, #1# resolves to (list gensym), and then alter the car later. but that's a list, you need an arbitrary place.
2015-06-03T01:27:52Z Bike: How the fuck does that work? Do you know what part of cleavir this would be in?
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2015-06-03T01:28:00Z Bike: or sicl, or whatever.
2015-06-03T01:28:26Z drmeister: I ran this example in SBCL.
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2015-06-03T01:28:57Z emaczen: pillton: What exactly am I commenting out?
2015-06-03T01:29:04Z nyef: Well, the code is in SYS:SRC;CODE;SHARPM.LISP it seems.
2015-06-03T01:29:11Z nyef: Look for sharp-equal
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2015-06-03T01:29:40Z drmeister: I know where it's in Cleavir.   sicl/Code/Cleavir/Input-output/io.lisp
2015-06-03T01:29:43Z nyef: Ah.
2015-06-03T01:29:50Z Bike: not in the reader? ok.
2015-06-03T01:29:50Z drmeister: I've created a stripped down version.
2015-06-03T01:29:56Z pillton: emaczen: The code a pasted before. That is the code that loads the foreign library.
2015-06-03T01:30:15Z nyef: There's a case here (typep tree 'instance), where it grovels the tagged slots of the instance (meaning struct or class instance).
2015-06-03T01:30:15Z pillton: emaczen: The code I* pasted before sorry.
2015-06-03T01:30:18Z Bike: oh, this is not the reader
2015-06-03T01:30:36Z drmeister: nyef: That is in SBCL?
2015-06-03T01:30:42Z nyef: Means that a suitable type restriction on the structure could kill it.
2015-06-03T01:30:43Z nyef: Yeah.
2015-06-03T01:30:45Z nyef: SBCL.
2015-06-03T01:31:01Z Bike: yeah, i was wondering about that, like having foo-a declared an integer or w/e.
2015-06-03T01:31:13Z drmeister: That may kill my hopes of using this with C++ objects.
2015-06-03T01:31:20Z drmeister: (sigh)
2015-06-03T01:31:25Z nyef: That's what SBCL does.
2015-06-03T01:31:28Z Bike: not really, you'd just add another case to things
2015-06-03T01:31:31Z drmeister: I had a feeling there was a snake in the grass.
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2015-06-03T01:32:02Z nyef: Now, what you could do is make a note of where the placeholder goes so that you can smash it up when you know what the value will be.
2015-06-03T01:32:21Z Bike: ah, sicl's fast reader has (defun sharpsign-function ... ;; define it ... ), nice
2015-06-03T01:32:24Z nyef: But, yeah, you'll probably need to be able to come up with suitably-typed values all over the place.
2015-06-03T01:32:30Z drmeister: Bike: I'd have to be able to grovel the tagged slots of C++ objects.  Maybe that's not so bad.
2015-06-03T01:33:08Z Bike: clhs ##
2015-06-03T01:33:08Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhp.htm
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2015-06-03T01:33:22Z Bike: no help, duh
2015-06-03T01:33:25Z emaczen: pillton: THANKS! I can't believe that worked!
2015-06-03T01:33:55Z Bike: clearly should just switch to lazy evaluation
2015-06-03T01:34:15Z Bike: actually that might work
2015-06-03T01:35:29Z pillton: emaczen: No problem. You should email to get that fixed. It shouldn't be like that.
2015-06-03T01:35:49Z emaczen: Whose problem is that exactly?
2015-06-03T01:36:29Z pillton: iolib. It should either 1) not done at all or 2) moved to iolib/conf so that you can set the path prior to loading the library.
2015-06-03T01:37:21Z Bike: no, hang on, cffi just does define foreign library, which should just use ld, you do the configuration in your os.
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2015-06-03T01:38:08Z pillton: I disagree. I often have multiple versions of the same library installed simultaneously.
2015-06-03T01:38:14Z Bike: no, lazy evaluation can't work. that was stupid
2015-06-03T01:39:09Z pillton: Loading resources is the responsibility of the person doing the deployment, not the library.
2015-06-03T01:39:53Z Bike: alright
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2015-06-03T01:40:22Z emaczen: pillton: Which part was bad?
2015-06-03T01:40:50Z pillton: emaczen: The part I asked you to comment out.
2015-06-03T01:41:12Z emaczen: ok
2015-06-03T01:41:25Z Bike: that would entail some pretty extensive changes in asdf and how systems are written, i think
2015-06-03T01:41:37Z pillton: emaczen: The FIXME says they are aware of it, they just need prodding.
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2015-06-03T01:42:23Z pillton: Bike: Well I am a fan of (asdf:load-system "iolib/conf")  ...set paths ... (asdf:load-system "iolib")
2015-06-03T01:42:45Z Bike: i mean, cos then you'd need a /conf for every library with foreign libraries, no?
2015-06-03T01:42:46Z drmeister: nyef: Where was that in the SBCL code?
2015-06-03T01:43:19Z pillton: Bike: You can do it using logical pathnames too. Personally, I think we need some sort of global configuration file.
2015-06-03T01:43:21Z Bike: drmeister: sb-impl::sharp-sharp, sb-impl::sharp-equal
2015-06-03T01:43:30Z nyef: It's where I said it was: SYS:SRC;CODE;SHARPM.LISP, look for sharp-equal.
2015-06-03T01:43:55Z Bike: pillton: right, i mean you'd have your asdf system say it has a foreign dependency on libfixposix, and then asdf/your implementation/i don't know checks a global table
2015-06-03T01:44:02Z drmeister: nyef: Sorry, I missed that.
2015-06-03T01:44:43Z Bike: circle-subst is the magic
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2015-06-03T01:45:30Z Bike: instance and funcallable-instance are different, noice.
2015-06-03T01:45:46Z drmeister: Clasp's circle-subst doesn't do that.  The last evaluation (foo-a *z*) --> #:G1696 on Clasp.
2015-06-03T01:45:50Z drmeister: That makes sense.
2015-06-03T01:46:02Z pillton: Bike: Yep. Something like that.
2015-06-03T01:46:04Z drmeister: nyef, Bike - thank you very much for your help.
2015-06-03T01:46:16Z nyef: 'Swhat we're here for.
2015-06-03T01:47:02Z Bike: integrating cffi with asdf sounds nicer than define-foreign-library like i do now, maybe you should bug... whoever's in charge of cffi
2015-06-03T01:47:18Z Bike: i think cffi does have mechanisms to configure the searching, maybe
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2015-06-03T01:49:07Z pillton: Well I prefer using rpath over directory searching. I know what I am using.
2015-06-03T01:49:29Z Bike: right. *foreign-library-directories*. "You should not have to use this variable". now i remember
2015-06-03T01:50:30Z Bike: rpath means baking in the physical pathname? so you have to recompile if it moves/you want to switch versions/etc?
2015-06-03T01:50:55Z pillton: Bike: Yep.
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2015-06-03T01:57:28Z drmeister: It looks like I'd have to provide a way of groveling the slots (relatively easy) and then I'd have to ignore the type of the slot temporarily until it gets fixed up.
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2015-06-03T01:59:14Z drmeister: What is a "tagged" slot vs an "untagged" slot?
2015-06-03T01:59:49Z Bike: tagged slot is like a packed array
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2015-06-03T02:00:50Z nyef: Other way around, surely?
2015-06-03T02:01:22Z nyef: An "untagged" slot is for things that are not represented as lisp pointers/immediates. Things like word-sized integers, floats, stuff like that.
2015-06-03T02:01:33Z drmeister: Hmm - sorry, I don't understand.   instances have tagged slots and untagged slots.  Can only tagged slots contain references to objects?  Do they mean like tagged pointers?
2015-06-03T02:01:41Z nyef: Exactly.
2015-06-03T02:01:54Z nyef: Untagged slots can't hold object references, and are ignored by the GC.
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2015-06-03T02:02:24Z drmeister: Oh, I see.
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2015-06-03T02:04:00Z drmeister: So I need to provide a way of indexing into the tagged slots of the C++ objects and reading and writing those slots.
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2015-06-03T02:04:40Z drmeister: I know I'm repeating myself.  That last post was with a good deal more conviction than the previous ones.
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2015-06-03T02:05:38Z nyef: I've done enough thrashing myself over the past few days, I know where you're coming from there. (-:
2015-06-03T02:07:36Z brucem: Bike: rpaths are a bit more flexible on OS X than on Linux. And on Linux (and FreeBSD), you don't have to bake in the full (absolute) physical path name if you use $ORIGIN (and the right linker flag).
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2015-06-03T02:12:35Z drmeister: I guess I have to provide fixup for hash-tables as well.  Keys and values - tricky.
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2015-06-03T02:28:27Z nyef: drmeister: Mind the weakness of the hash-table, as well. (-:
2015-06-03T02:28:51Z drmeister: For printing weak hash tables?
2015-06-03T02:29:06Z nyef: For doing the sharp-equal reader thing.
2015-06-03T02:29:29Z drmeister: Could you elaborate on that?
2015-06-03T02:30:32Z nyef: I'm half-suggesting that there may be trouble if you use a transient/temporary key or value if the table is weak in that direction.
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2015-06-03T02:30:59Z nyef: Or maybe it was the other direction. Really not sure.
2015-06-03T02:31:10Z drmeister: Yeah, I'll have to think about it.
2015-06-03T02:31:43Z drmeister: I didn't think about serializing weak hash tables.
2015-06-03T02:34:08Z Bike: add a test for serializing a weak hash table with itself as a key and as a value, very useful
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2015-06-03T02:59:38Z loke: Hello Bike. Here's your picture:
2015-06-03T02:59:38Z loke: http://www.postvintage.org.au/wp-content/uploads/Penny-Fathing-2.jpg
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2015-06-03T03:01:06Z nyef: Now THERE'S a bicycle. How do you even get onto one of those?
2015-06-03T03:01:18Z loke: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny-farthing#/media/File:Velocipedist.JPG
2015-06-03T03:01:32Z loke: There is a ladder on the back
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2015-06-03T03:02:55Z loke: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p--RKyDFIAk
2015-06-03T03:03:38Z loke: Looks easy enough
2015-06-03T03:04:19Z nyef: Yeah, just found a different video for it.
2015-06-03T03:04:30Z nyef: Now I'm kindof tempted. (-:
2015-06-03T03:04:39Z loke: I'd love to try one
2015-06-03T03:04:43Z Brozo: that's freaky
2015-06-03T03:04:52Z Bike: http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=331
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2015-06-03T03:23:28Z drmeister: Bike: Could you elaborate on the idea of adding a test for serializing a weak hash table with itself as a key and as a value
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2015-06-03T03:24:21Z Bike: half-joking. it's just an extreme instance of what you're working on.
2015-06-03T03:25:04Z Bike: you have to worry about weakness and self-referencing structures at the same time, that's all.
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2015-06-03T03:34:49Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-06-03T03:34:56Z loke: Hello beach!
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2015-06-03T03:35:05Z drmeister: Hi beach.
2015-06-03T03:35:08Z loke: What's happening on the beach today?
2015-06-03T03:35:17Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-06-03T03:35:28Z beach: loke: Wouldn't know.
2015-06-03T03:36:13Z loke: brucem: Solaris also has the $ORIGIN feature (in fact, I think it started there)
2015-06-03T03:36:36Z brucem: loke: ahh, okay. I only spoke of what I've actually used / deployed. :)
2015-06-03T03:37:18Z loke: I was desperately looking for the corresponding feature on Linux, and I came away with the impression that it's not actually possible. Quite terrible.
2015-06-03T03:37:33Z drmeister: beach: I got printing of C++ objects to work somewhat - but fixing up circularity in the C++ objects turns out to require some specialized code.  It requires groveling over the tagged slots of the C++ objects, looking for tags that are replaced with values.
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2015-06-03T03:38:42Z beach: drmeister: Yeah, a Common Lisp must do something similar with Common Lisp objects, i.e., traverse them and look for the temporary value to replace.
2015-06-03T03:38:52Z brucem: loke: $ORIGIN on Linux (and FreeBSD) is really limited compared to the rpath handling and variables that OS X allows. :/  (But on OS X, it isn't documented entirely well so it is confusing as to what a best practice is...) (and LLDB didn't correctly support some rpath stuff well up until about 12 hours ago)
2015-06-03T03:39:14Z drmeister: beach: Yes, that complicates my life considerably.
2015-06-03T03:40:59Z drmeister: Would it not have been better to do things in two stages (1) allocate objects, (2) initialize them?
2015-06-03T03:42:31Z beach: drmeister: Maybe so.  I haven't thought about that.  Maybe you can implement #n# and #n= in Clasp that way.
2015-06-03T03:42:53Z drmeister: Hmm, interesting idea - is that allowed?
2015-06-03T03:43:21Z drmeister: I guess as long as the semantics are the same...
2015-06-03T03:43:27Z beach: I don't recall seeing any restriction on how those macro characters are implemented.
2015-06-03T03:43:41Z Bike: it's how load forms work~
2015-06-03T03:43:53Z beach: There might be some other requirement that prevents it, but I haven't thought about it.
2015-06-03T03:43:57Z Bike: but, #n# and all need to work with arbitrary reader macros, which isn't great
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2015-06-03T03:44:46Z nyef: This and the #S reader are the main things that make a "portable" reader implementation impossible, aren't they?
2015-06-03T03:45:00Z Bike: ooh, let's see what pjb does.
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2015-06-03T03:45:45Z Bike: still on gitorious, which will shut down in the end of may
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2015-06-03T03:46:08Z Quadrescence: it would be nice if reader macros could somehow access the #n "environment"
2015-06-03T03:46:35Z Bike: well, then you'd have to standardize what could be bound there.
2015-06-03T03:47:04Z Quadrescence: could it not just be some object comparable by identity
2015-06-03T03:47:24Z Quadrescence: which the reader patches afterwards or something
2015-06-03T03:47:33Z Bike: well, i guess, but then how would you write drmeister's {?
2015-06-03T03:47:44Z Bike: it returns an actual object, which has to be edited after the {} form is read
2015-06-03T03:48:13Z Quadrescence: CHANGE-CLASS!
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2015-06-03T03:48:31Z Quadrescence: or something, im not sure :)
2015-06-03T03:48:39Z drmeister: Nope, can't change-class with builtin objects.
2015-06-03T03:48:48Z Bike: it's just a setf slot, but you have to arrange for that to be executed at some point.
2015-06-03T03:49:52Z Bike: you could like... the reader could include a dynamic variable or something with functions to do the patching.
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2015-06-03T03:50:58Z Bike: so you'd have { do (let ((object (make-instance ...))) (add-patcher n (lambda (val) (setf (i-forgot-the-accessor object) val))) object)
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2015-06-03T03:51:50Z Quadrescence: sounds like a mostly reasonable solution
2015-06-03T03:52:03Z Bike: geez, pjb's got a whole float reader in here.
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2015-06-03T03:52:28Z Quadrescence: Bike, it gets executed at the end of the #n= macro I would assume, maybe
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2015-06-03T03:52:49Z Bike: Right.
2015-06-03T03:53:01Z drmeister: Bike - what is the "n" parameter to add-patcher?
2015-06-03T03:53:09Z drmeister: The #n= "n"?
2015-06-03T03:53:12Z Bike: the reference number. like in #37=() it would be 37.
2015-06-03T03:53:34Z drmeister: I'm trying to parse your suggestion.
2015-06-03T03:53:37Z Quadrescence: Bike, except you can do this:
2015-06-03T03:53:37Z Quadrescence: ? (list #1=(cons 1 1) #1#)
2015-06-03T03:53:38Z Quadrescence: ((1 . 1) (1 . 1))
2015-06-03T03:54:02Z Bike: the idea is that #n= reads an unpatched object, executes all the patchers that have been accumulated during reading (passing them the unpatched object), and then returns the now patched object.
2015-06-03T03:54:24Z Bike: Quadrescence: have add-patcher be a no-op if out of the context of n?
2015-06-03T03:55:03Z Bike: er, uh.
2015-06-03T03:55:24Z Bike: okay, with my { you actually have to have the macro figure out which slots need replacing, right.
2015-06-03T03:56:02Z Bike: by the way, if i'm not mistaken pjb's ## reader doesn't handle the recursive case.
2015-06-03T03:56:20Z drmeister: I don't see how this improves on the current situation.
2015-06-03T03:56:25Z Bike: https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/source/a1ef00b115d7a0fdcc33edf5da94c19f7892277e:common-lisp/lisp-reader/reader.lisp#L1497-
2015-06-03T03:56:29Z Bike: wow.
2015-06-03T03:56:46Z Bike: oh, that link actually works, great.
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2015-06-03T03:57:31Z Bike: drmeister: you could have the patcher function just use the regular (&portable) object accessors rather than you making a way to iterate over the slots.
2015-06-03T03:57:55Z Bike: drmeister: but, this is pretty abstract, you should probably just do that first and we can talk about this extension shit some other time.
2015-06-03T03:57:59Z Bike: beach: any opinion, btw?
2015-06-03T03:59:48Z drmeister: Another idea is to pass the patch map to each object and let it patch itself up.
2015-06-03T04:00:24Z Bike: how would the object know when to do anything?
2015-06-03T04:00:39Z beach: Bike: Sorry, not quite awake yet.  Opinion on what?
2015-06-03T04:00:47Z drmeister: I suggest that because the object may or may not have accessors for the slot.
2015-06-03T04:00:49Z Bike: all this recursive ## stuff.
2015-06-03T04:01:19Z beach: I think I know how it is done in (say) SBCL.
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2015-06-03T04:01:40Z Bike: it iterates over the slots. non portable, etc
2015-06-03T04:01:44Z beach: Yeah.
2015-06-03T04:02:10Z beach: Well, it might be portable if you count the MOP.
2015-06-03T04:03:44Z drmeister: This is how I serialize and deserialize the slots at the moment (C++)
2015-06-03T04:03:46Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/EsD0Jig5/
2015-06-03T04:05:24Z drmeister: The Record_sp object knows if it's serializing or deserializing and it either generates output from the field or reads into the field.  I could add a third facility, one that patches the field if it contains a tag that matches a key in the patch map.
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2015-06-03T04:05:27Z beach: ... and I agree that it would seem difficult to do it differently, given arbitrary reader macros etc.
2015-06-03T04:06:04Z drmeister: This facility would ignore fields that are not tagged.
2015-06-03T04:06:26Z drmeister: All done with C++ template programming.
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2015-06-03T04:07:48Z drmeister: Then any C++ class that is exposed to Common Lisp would only need to provide a "fields" virtual function.
2015-06-03T04:08:47Z Bike: well you have to get untagged fields too for this, doncha?
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2015-06-03T04:09:37Z drmeister: Yes.  But the template code would nop those.
2015-06-03T04:09:56Z Bike: i mean, you have to patch them too, possibly.
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2015-06-03T04:10:15Z drmeister: Do I?
2015-06-03T04:10:23Z Bike: sure?
2015-06-03T04:10:31Z Bike: untagged slot means a slot with a general pointer, yes?
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2015-06-03T04:11:28Z drmeister: I don't think so.  An untagged slot would be something like a C++ int or a double precision value.
2015-06-03T04:12:18Z drmeister: When writing a double would get converted to a unique DOUBLE-FLOAT.
2015-06-03T04:12:54Z drmeister: I don't think they would ever be patched.
2015-06-03T04:13:03Z Bike: ...okay, guess i'm thinking backwards, sorry.
2015-06-03T04:13:14Z drmeister: No - it's ok, this is really helpful.
2015-06-03T04:14:53Z drmeister: Actually, I'm certain of it.   An untagged slot would never generate a #n# tag.  They are only generated if the value is EQ to a value that was already written and assigned a #n= tag.
2015-06-03T04:15:22Z drmeister: That's because untagged slots are run through my to_object converters and they always generate unique values.
2015-06-03T04:15:42Z Bike: well, you wouldn't recursively run into a #n# that's an integer or float or something, sure.
2015-06-03T04:15:47Z drmeister: Well, wait, that may not be true.
2015-06-03T04:16:00Z Bike: "recursively" being a key, but non-recursively, the job's much easier.
2015-06-03T04:16:09Z drmeister: Enums generate symbols.  Symbols should not be unique.  Hmmm.
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2015-06-03T04:18:26Z drmeister: An untagged field can't store a tag in the first place.
2015-06-03T04:19:27Z Bike: pjb's reader's float reader doesn't seem all that good, but i don't know much about all that.
2015-06-03T04:19:50Z beach: Bike: There is a paper on float reading and writing.
2015-06-03T04:20:00Z Bike: several, as far as i can tell
2015-06-03T04:20:10Z beach: Yes, but one "ultimate" paper.
2015-06-03T04:20:15Z drmeister: Is every tag fixed up? Or just problematic ones that involve circular references?
2015-06-03T04:20:31Z Bike: bcl's implementation cites one or another and the code works fine indepdently
2015-06-03T04:20:44Z Bike: drmeister: just recursive ones, if you have #1=closed_object #1# you can just have #1# read as the object
2015-06-03T04:20:47Z Bike: sbcl's*
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2015-06-03T04:21:13Z drmeister: If that's the case then that solves my non-tagged problem.
2015-06-03T04:21:26Z Bike: er, i'm thinking of the writing algorithm, not reading (re floats, not ##)
2015-06-03T04:21:36Z beach: Bike: David M. Gay: Correctly Rounded Binary-Decimal and Decimal-Binary Conversions.
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2015-06-03T04:23:34Z Bike: sb-impl::flonum-to-digits cites... "Burger and Dybvig, 1996"
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2015-06-03T04:24:18Z beach: Bike: Ah, that's more recent.
2015-06-03T04:25:15Z drmeister: Bike: Does "sb-impl::flonum-to-digits cites... "Burger and Dybvig, 1996"" refer to my issue or is it part of a similar but parallel discussion?
2015-06-03T04:25:29Z Bike: a not very similar but parallel discussion, sorry
2015-06-03T04:25:56Z drmeister: No, it's ok - I was having difficulty parsing out what was what.
2015-06-03T04:26:19Z Bike: drmeister: let me lay out my understanding of ## for you. first, you have the reader overall set up a couple tables for ##, and make sure not to override them inappropriately if the reader is called recursively.
2015-06-03T04:26:30Z beach: Bike: I have read that paper in the past, but must have forgotten about it.  Thanks for reminding me.
2015-06-03T04:26:40Z drmeister: Sure.
2015-06-03T04:26:51Z Bike: second, you have the ## reader dynamically set something or another as it reads, indicating that the forms inside should be aware that they're inside a ## read.
2015-06-03T04:26:57Z Bike: wow, #=, oops.
2015-06-03T04:27:21Z drmeister: I'm following.
2015-06-03T04:27:41Z Bike: third you have ## check to see whether the id is recursive or nonrecursive; if it's recursive you set up a patch (put in a temporary gensym or whatever), if it's nonrecursive you just retrieve the complete object from a table and return that.
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2015-06-03T04:28:11Z Bike: finally, when a #='s read finishes, you take the unpatched object constructed, patch it with information from the dynamic table, and return it.
2015-06-03T04:28:56Z Bike: you can see how the nonrecursive case works from pjb's code https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/source/a1ef00b115d7a0fdcc33edf5da94c19f7892277e:common-lisp/lisp-reader/reader.lisp#L1497-
2015-06-03T04:29:01Z Bike: it's quite simple and portable.
2015-06-03T04:29:34Z drmeister: I've implemented #n= and #n# a couple of times (borrowing from other implementations) a couple of years ago.   I forgot how they handled recursive circularity. When I looked into my code (after nyef pointed me to the SBCL version) I realized that I'd commented out the instance slot patching because I didn't understand how to make it work with Clasp at the
2015-06-03T04:29:35Z drmeister: time.
2015-06-03T04:30:17Z Bike: well it seems like you've basically got it now.
2015-06-03T04:30:21Z beach: With the MOP, it ought to be possible to patch standard objects.
2015-06-03T04:30:41Z Bike: there's still struct objects, and drmeister is worried about C++ things.
2015-06-03T04:30:52Z beach: I know.  Just thinking out loud.
2015-06-03T04:30:54Z drmeister: Everything is complicated for me because I'm trying to figure out how to print/read/patch arbitrary C++ objects.
2015-06-03T04:30:58Z Bike: oh, sorry
2015-06-03T04:31:05Z drmeister: Without having to write a lot of boilerplate code.
2015-06-03T04:31:18Z Bike: well, have you got metaclass objects for C++ objects?
2015-06-03T04:31:46Z drmeister: Yes, I have metaclass objects for C++, but they don't know much about the objects that they represent.
2015-06-03T04:31:50Z Bike: like, you have a cando:tyrosine class, can you do (class-slots 'cando:tyrosine)? that's pretty well all you need.
2015-06-03T04:31:57Z Bike: might want to make it more extensive, then
2015-06-03T04:32:11Z beach: For SICL, since I plan to make struct objects and built-in objects similar to standard objects, I can probably use the same mechanism for everything.
2015-06-03T04:32:53Z drmeister: Ugh, that requires a lot more work.   I ended up writing a static analyzer to support the MPS garbage collector.  I don't want to do it by hand.
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2015-06-03T04:33:13Z Bike: seems like something the static analyzer would report...
2015-06-03T04:33:21Z Bike: does it not already give you the slots and whether they're tagged?
2015-06-03T04:33:21Z drmeister: It is.
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2015-06-03T04:33:28Z Bike: i mean, i thought you'd need that for mps anyway
2015-06-03T04:33:53Z drmeister: Yes it does.  But there is a bootstrapping issue.  The Boehm version can't count on the static analyzer.
2015-06-03T04:34:17Z beach: Why do you need serialization during bootstrapping?
2015-06-03T04:34:21Z Bike: eh, well for this reader stuff you've practically got a complete system already, surely.
2015-06-03T04:34:23Z Bike: yeah that.
2015-06-03T04:35:00Z drmeister: Now that you mention it, I don't.
2015-06-03T04:35:37Z drmeister: So I could add the facility to the static analyzer to generate serialization fixup code.
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2015-06-03T04:36:36Z drmeister: But I can do this with C++ template programming as well. The C++ compiler knows what is a tagged slot and what isn't.
2015-06-03T04:36:40Z drmeister: Hmmm.
2015-06-03T04:37:12Z Bike: oh, wait, christ, so this can't be happening dynamically. what a pain.
2015-06-03T04:37:31Z beach: drmeister: What is a "tagged slot" again?
2015-06-03T04:37:39Z drmeister: Rather, of the slots that I serialize, the C++ compiler knows what is a "tagged slot".
2015-06-03T04:37:43Z Bike: a slot with a full lisp object in it
2015-06-03T04:37:46Z drmeister: It's a smart_ptr.
2015-06-03T04:38:01Z Bike: as opposed to an int or something. it's like packed arrays (or, nyef says, packed arrays are like this)
2015-06-03T04:38:07Z drmeister: Yes, a slot that can point to a lisp object.
2015-06-03T04:38:46Z beach: Have you eliminated raw C++ pointers altogether?
2015-06-03T04:38:50Z drmeister: In Clasp, I can define C++ classes that contain smart_ptr<...> and raw C++ data types willy nilly, in any order.
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2015-06-03T04:39:30Z drmeister: beach: Yes.  I only use raw C++ pointers for non-GC objects.
2015-06-03T04:39:45Z beach: And such objects don't need to be serialized?
2015-06-03T04:39:56Z drmeister: A tagged pointer is one that the GC needs to manage.  Something that points into GC managed memory.
2015-06-03T04:40:23Z beach: Sorry, I should have asked "Do non-GC objects ever need to be serialized"?
2015-06-03T04:40:47Z drmeister: beach: No, they do need to be serialized.   class Vector3_O : public T_O { ... double x; double y; double z; ... } needs to be serialized.
2015-06-03T04:41:06Z drmeister: The x,y,z coordinates are converted into unique DOUBLE-FLOAT values on the fly.
2015-06-03T04:41:41Z beach: So your example above is a GC object since it needs to be serialized?
2015-06-03T04:41:58Z loke: drmeister: My clasp still doesn't build
2015-06-03T04:42:00Z loke: help?
2015-06-03T04:42:24Z drmeister: Yes, an instance of Vector3_O will be in GC managed memory.
2015-06-03T04:42:50Z drmeister: But it doesn't contain any pointers itself.
2015-06-03T04:43:16Z drmeister: loke: OS X or Linux (and we could take it to #clasp)
2015-06-03T04:43:23Z loke: Linux
2015-06-03T04:43:31Z drmeister: Which distro?
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2015-06-03T04:43:37Z loke: Arch
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2015-06-03T04:44:04Z loke: I'm running make again so that I can give you the error I got
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2015-06-03T04:45:39Z drmeister: loke: Shinmera developed an installer/package/whatever for Arch.  If you drop in to #clasp tomorrow during the day he could point you to it.
2015-06-03T04:45:42Z jasom: are defvars available at macroexpand time for the same file?
2015-06-03T04:45:50Z jasom: or do I need an eval-when
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2015-06-03T04:47:08Z Bike: You mean the value?
2015-06-03T04:47:26Z drmeister: jasom: Or the specialness?
2015-06-03T04:47:28Z jasom: If a defvar or defparameter form appears as a top level form, the compiler must recognize that the name has been proclaimed special. However, it must neither evaluate the initial-value form nor assign the dynamic variable named name at compile time. y
2015-06-03T04:47:36Z jasom: I meant the value, so that's a no
2015-06-03T04:47:49Z Bike: yeah, you need an eval-when
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2015-06-03T05:00:06Z loke: My clasp is still trying to build
2015-06-03T05:00:19Z loke: The build is very, very slow. Why is that?
2015-06-03T05:01:31Z drmeister: Here's an example of what I'm getting at:
2015-06-03T05:01:33Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/6DMv66xa/
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2015-06-03T05:02:03Z drmeister: This is Clasp code that uses my chemistry classes to read a Fortran formatted file that describes rules for assigning atom types.
2015-06-03T05:02:24Z drmeister: The last "prin1" statement generates this:
2015-06-03T05:02:26Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/g0t7GjQf/
2015-06-03T05:02:44Z drmeister: Lots of #n= and #n# in there.
2015-06-03T05:02:56Z drmeister: And nested C++ classes.
2015-06-03T05:03:31Z drmeister: The Fortran formatted file that it read is this:
2015-06-03T05:03:32Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/r5eCiq5I/
2015-06-03T05:03:57Z Bike: "{#4# #1# #A(#2# (3) (#11# #10# #7#))}" is a triumph, though i don't know what in
2015-06-03T05:04:04Z drmeister: I didn't write the Fortran formatted file.  It is part of the GAFF (Generalized Amber Force Field)
2015-06-03T05:04:12Z Bike: octothorpe density, maybe
2015-06-03T05:04:25Z drmeister: Yes - it is beautiful in a way isn't it?
2015-06-03T05:04:55Z drmeister: That's the value of using symbols rather than strings to name everything.  It's very dense but not human readable.
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2015-06-03T05:05:25Z drmeister: I'm pretty sure recursive circularity doesn't even come up.
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2015-06-03T05:05:47Z drmeister: loke: It takes a long time to compile because it starts out running a Common Lisp interpreter.
2015-06-03T05:05:58Z Bike: well, it doesn't look like the lines refer to one another.
2015-06-03T05:07:05Z drmeister: In this case they don't.  Other data structures may. So while I'm working on it - I should get it right.
2015-06-03T05:07:44Z emaczen: What is the equivalent of char buf[100] for cffi?
2015-06-03T05:08:11Z Bike: emaczen: mem-aref
2015-06-03T05:08:19Z Bike: emaczen: er, no, you mean stack allocation
2015-06-03T05:08:52Z emaczen: (defcvar buf char[100]) ?
2015-06-03T05:08:56Z Bike: there's with-foreign-string, with-foreign-pointer-as-string, etc
2015-06-03T05:08:59Z Bike: oh. that.
2015-06-03T05:09:06Z Bike: it's a (:pointer :char).
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2015-06-03T05:09:53Z emaczen: What are the other two you mentioned used for?
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2015-06-03T05:10:22Z Bike: those aren't types, they're macros. i thought you wanted to know how to allocate a buffer, rather than how to access an already existing buffer.
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2015-06-03T05:14:48Z emaczen: is cffi similar to SBCLs ffi?
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2015-06-03T05:15:44Z Bike: it is a wrapper around sbcl's ffi (and ccl's ffi, etc)
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2015-06-03T05:16:07Z emaczen: Ahhh I see
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2015-06-03T05:41:56Z emaczen: I can't seem to find how I can set a foreign variable
2015-06-03T05:42:04Z emaczen: For example (defcvar len :int)
2015-06-03T05:42:11Z emaczen: how can I set the value of len?
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2015-06-03T05:48:33Z small-wolf: are there non-historical reasons why are types and classes are separate in common lisp?
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2015-06-03T05:52:24Z Shinmera: types can be arbitrarily complex (see SATISFIES) which would be a real hit in performance on generic dispatch.
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2015-06-03T05:53:24Z Shinmera: And you couldn't really compute the precedence list with arbitrary types.
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2015-06-03T05:53:44Z Shinmera: So you couldn't compute the proper order of the methods to begin with.
2015-06-03T05:54:26Z small-wolf: what is the method resolution order? I tried hunting around for it a few days ago but failed to find a good article/explanation
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2015-06-03T05:54:47Z Shinmera: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Method-combination.png
2015-06-03T05:55:13Z Shinmera: That's for the standard method combination. You can also add your own that order things differently.
2015-06-03T05:55:20Z beach: small-wolf: What do you mean by "method resolution order"?
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2015-06-03T05:56:19Z beach: small-wolf: Methods are not really "resolved".  An "effective method" is computed from a bunch of "applicable methods" according to the "method combination" for that particular generic function.
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2015-06-03T05:57:38Z beach: small-wolf: And to complement what Shinmera said before, the creators of the Common Lisp standard were very concerned about performance.  Since they didn't know how to make CLOS dispatch work on arbitrary types while preserving performance, they kept the two concepts separate.
2015-06-03T05:58:57Z small-wolf: ah okay I think I get the terminology a little better now, what's the rule for which concrete method you dispatch to in a generic function?
2015-06-03T05:59:02Z beach: small-wolf: Creators of more "modern" languages don't seem to care so much about performance, so they happily add features that make it impossible to generate efficient code, at least with techniques that we know today.
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2015-06-03T06:00:18Z beach: clhs standard
2015-06-03T06:00:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_ffb.htm
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2015-06-03T06:01:19Z beach: small-wolf: Assuming you mean the rules for computing an effective method in the standard method combination, see that link.
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2015-06-03T06:02:37Z small-wolf: now I'm more confused. this seems to be simultaneously talking about advice and dispatch rules. I think of those as separate concepts.
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2015-06-03T06:03:06Z beach: There is nothing about "advice" on that page.
2015-06-03T06:03:12Z Shinmera: What's "advice"?
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2015-06-03T06:03:35Z small-wolf: :around, :before, :after ... you add those to functions using defadvice in elisp
2015-06-03T06:03:43Z Shinmera: Well this isn't elisp.
2015-06-03T06:04:02Z beach: small-wolf: This channel is exclusively about Common Lisp.
2015-06-03T06:04:34Z Shinmera: Thinking in terms of other languages will lead you to confusion.
2015-06-03T06:05:47Z Shinmera: It's better to try to clear your mind of what you know, and look at it without assuming to know anything about it.
2015-06-03T06:05:49Z small-wolf: I think the facility was called advice in maclisp and flavors, and several languages inherited the feature, but point taken.
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2015-06-03T06:07:06Z beach: small-wolf: Semantically speaking, for a given call, all applicable methods are determined.  Then those methods are combined into an effective method using the method combination for that generic function.  Finally, the effective method is called.  That's all there is to it.
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2015-06-03T06:07:58Z beach: By "semantically speaking" I mean that there is typically a lot of caching involved, so that this work does not have to be done for each call.
2015-06-03T06:08:35Z Shinmera: In CL each method has a set of qualifiers and specializers. The specializer set has to be compatible with the lambda-list of the generic function the method belongs to. The qualifier set has to be compatible with the method combination of the generic function.
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2015-06-03T06:09:21Z Shinmera: The qualifiers determine which "group" of methods it belongs to in the dispatch sequence, and the specializers determine the "order".
2015-06-03T06:09:59Z beach: "specificity"?
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2015-06-03T06:10:44Z Shinmera: Well... yeah. It gets complicated, since the method combination can do practically whatever it wants with the qualifiers and specializers it gets.
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2015-06-03T06:11:29Z small-wolf: okay so I get that for a particular value, any two applicable types can be ordered by specificity ... right?
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2015-06-03T06:11:47Z Shinmera: Types cannot, but classes can.
2015-06-03T06:11:59Z beach: small-wolf: There is no such thing as "applicable type".
2015-06-03T06:12:03Z small-wolf: right. types are arbitrarily complex. classes are not.
2015-06-03T06:12:24Z beach: small-wolf: Classes are not order by specificity.  Methods are.
2015-06-03T06:13:10Z small-wolf: but at least in principle, there is such an order, right?
2015-06-03T06:13:15Z beach: small-wolf: And classes are not applicable.  Methods are applicable to arguments of certain classes.
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2015-06-03T06:13:51Z Shinmera: small-wolf: There is such an order for a given set of arguments to a generic function.
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2015-06-03T06:14:20Z beach: Classes are ordered by the class precedence list.
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2015-06-03T06:14:45Z small-wolf: awesome. Does that order privilege "lefter" arguments?
2015-06-03T06:15:02Z beach: small-wolf: By default, yes, but you can change that.
2015-06-03T06:15:13Z beach: mop generic-function-argument-precedence-order
2015-06-03T06:15:13Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/generic-function-argument-precedence-order.html
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2015-06-03T06:18:47Z beach supposes he could have typed g-f-a-p-o instead.
2015-06-03T06:19:06Z beach: mop c-a-m-u-c
2015-06-03T06:19:07Z specbot: compute-applicable-methods-using-classes: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/compute-applicable-methods-using-classes.html
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2015-06-03T06:20:22Z small-wolf: wait but one of my methods can specialize on (wrong word?) a single value right?
2015-06-03T06:20:44Z beach: mop c-a-m
2015-06-03T06:20:44Z specbot: compute-applicable-methods: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/compute-applicable-methods.html
2015-06-03T06:20:58Z beach: small-wolf: Yes, with EQL specializers.
2015-06-03T06:24:19Z beach heaves a sigh of relief that there is no generic function named find-unused-class-keywords.
2015-06-03T06:26:07Z beach: small-wolf: Here is a complete HTMLized version of chapters 5 and 6 from the AMOP: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/
2015-06-03T06:26:20Z Shinmera: The pure innocence of lisp programmers would be ruined if they found the shorthant!
2015-06-03T06:26:26Z Shinmera: *shorthand
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2015-06-03T06:35:00Z kami: Good morning.
2015-06-03T06:35:19Z beach: Hello kami.
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2015-06-03T06:46:11Z beach: Time to get to work!
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2015-06-03T06:47:49Z pillton: Zhivago jasom Bike: I got the templated functions working.
2015-06-03T06:47:54Z pillton: Zhivago jasom Bike: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149041
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2015-06-03T09:17:58Z otsotsots: Hi #lisp. I am looking for the most up-to-date and/or convenient way of sending commands to gnuplot from a lisp-file or from SLIME. I have looked at cgn, but it has been removed (?) from quicklisp, so it seems like a risky bet. Are there some most-popular choice? BR ots
2015-06-03T09:18:23Z otsotsots: there are several small projects on github, but I would prefer one which has some user-base to draw experience from...
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2015-06-03T09:28:01Z loke: otsotsots: Just write the output to a file and run gnuplot on it
2015-06-03T09:28:11Z loke: otsotsots: gnuplot doesn't have an API, so that's pretty much the only way.
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2015-06-03T09:31:15Z otsotsots_: ok thank you loke. That's what I am doing now. But the edges around such a solution are very rough:P
2015-06-03T09:31:30Z loke: otsotsots: How so?
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2015-06-03T09:33:28Z otsotsots_: I want to restrict what part of my dataset i am sending to gnuplot. Which comes very naturally doing in lisp since I create the data in lisp. I have not invested much time in making such a workflow pretty, since I hoped for some direct connection.
2015-06-03T09:33:56Z otsotsots_: but I guess it can be good once i commit to it.
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2015-06-03T09:36:06Z dim: can you replace gnuplot with a full CL based solution maybe?
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2015-06-03T09:38:59Z otsotsots_: Maybe:) which one would that be? There is a certain paralysis of choice when it comes to doing things in CL ... (I am semi-noob by now)
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2015-06-03T09:39:39Z loke: otsotsots_: Thankfully when it comes to graphing, you don't have much choice.
2015-06-03T09:41:24Z otsotsots_: loke: ok suggestion?
2015-06-03T09:41:35Z loke: None :-)
2015-06-03T09:41:38Z loke: I mean :-(
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2015-06-03T09:44:44Z otsotsots_: loke : ok that made more sense:) It is slightly surprising given lisp's academic background. I will go with some gnuplot-interface thingy and hope it turns out to be good enough.
2015-06-03T09:44:57Z otsotsots_: thank you for your suggestions
2015-06-03T09:45:05Z loke: You can use GTK+ and create a full user interface I guess?
2015-06-03T09:45:20Z H4ns: you can also just generate some svg
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2015-06-03T09:45:34Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: hi
2015-06-03T09:45:51Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: I found that hunchentoot does not work with ecl :(
2015-06-03T09:46:12Z H4ns: otsotsots_: that won't give you the fancy axis annotations etc that gnuplot has, but there is plenty of information on svg on the net and it is relatively easy to create something decent with it.
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2015-06-03T09:46:41Z otsotsots_: mm. Ill look into that some. but it might be overkill.
2015-06-03T09:47:22Z H4ns: otsotsots_: underkill maybe
2015-06-03T09:47:29Z otsotsots_: i dont think i need fancy, but every now and then it might be usefull. 99% of the time simple is enough, but then someone wants something pretty
2015-06-03T09:47:43Z loke: Posterdati: it doesn't?
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2015-06-03T09:48:13Z otsotsots_: i guess that is what most good plotting libs do, can do simple plots directly and advanced stuff in the end.
2015-06-03T09:48:46Z dim: if you're about to produce a file, what about .tex with tikz then?
2015-06-03T09:48:52Z H4ns: otsotsots_: hence svg
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2015-06-03T09:49:20Z dim: also, http://cliki.net/plotting
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2015-06-03T09:50:55Z dim: http://wcp.sdf-eu.org/software/clot/index.html isn't that ugly
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2015-06-03T09:52:16Z otsotsots_: dim half of those links are pointing to very old projects. which makes me hesitant to invest time figuring out if they are good.
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2015-06-03T09:52:29Z dim: frankly when I needed to output some graphics I've been using either javascript libs or tikz recently
2015-06-03T09:52:29Z otsotsots_: dim: but yes wcp looks decent enough
2015-06-03T09:52:36Z Shinmera: You might also be able to get smoke to generate wrappers for QtCharts, which would allow you to use it through CommonQt.
2015-06-03T09:52:36Z otsotsots_: sorry I mean CLOT
2015-06-03T09:52:44Z Shinmera makes a TODO to try that
2015-06-03T09:53:03Z dim: highcharts and d3js in javascript are quite good, highcharts makes it easy to then have a pdf or svg or png file
2015-06-03T09:53:23Z dim: see https://github.com/dimitri/pgcharts for an example of a CL app that uses highcharts for its graph rendering
2015-06-03T09:54:20Z Shinmera: Otherwise, there's plenty of graphics library. Usually drawing a plot is easy enough with some line primitives.
2015-06-03T09:54:25Z Shinmera: *libraries
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2015-06-03T09:56:18Z otsotsots_: I need to get back to work, but I have gotten plenty to think about and several new possible approaches. TY all. Have a good day:)
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2015-06-03T10:59:36Z zotherstupidguy: why lisp is good for AI?
2015-06-03T11:00:01Z H4ns: who told you that?  ask them.
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2015-06-03T11:01:30Z zotherstupidguy: i read it in a book
2015-06-03T11:01:50Z antoszka: Write an e-mail to the author.
2015-06-03T11:01:50Z H4ns: if that book does not explain why lisp is good for ai, it is probably not a good book.
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2015-06-03T11:22:37Z jackdaniel: wasn't AI that lady, with whom CL took painful divorce years ago?
2015-06-03T11:22:47Z jackdaniel: Once upon a time, there was a young man, and young woman
2015-06-03T11:22:49Z jackdaniel: ^_^
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2015-06-03T11:22:59Z theos: Ai is that lady that murdered CL
2015-06-03T11:23:27Z jackdaniel: arguably, it's not a grave you know ;)
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2015-06-03T12:10:51Z kephra: zotherstupidguy, my definition is: AI is the art of computer programming to solve problems, where the average code thinks this problem requires real intelligence - so AI is a moving with state of the art
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2015-06-03T12:11:40Z kephra: Lisp was great for AI, when AI research was around symbolic AI - e.g. expert systems, chat systems, or solving math equations
2015-06-03T12:12:21Z kephra: now SotA is more about self driving cars, injection molding machines that are more intelligent then their chinese workers (at least when it comes to quality control), and the like
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2015-06-03T12:14:38Z theos: CL can do all of these
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2015-06-03T12:18:34Z kephra: theos, sure Lisp is still a great language for modern AI also - because Lisp offers an unusual abstraction of sexpression where code could be data
2015-06-03T12:19:28Z kephra: but speaking of injection molding machines *shameless plug*, those run C+FORTRAN+Lua+PHP
2015-06-03T12:20:20Z kephra: ... or more precise the embedded system runs C+FORTRAN+Lua - the control station runs PHP
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2015-06-03T12:21:01Z theos: PHP for real?
2015-06-03T12:21:27Z jackdaniel: yes, php is essential
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2015-06-03T12:21:33Z jackdaniel: ai
2015-06-03T12:22:23Z kephra: PHP was the easiest way to produce HTML,CSS,JS output
2015-06-03T12:22:56Z kephra: there is also a much smaller Perl monitor - for Nagios
2015-06-03T12:23:19Z kephra: the AI is FORTRAN+C plus Lua for glue
2015-06-03T12:23:22Z jackdaniel: if you'll replace 'easiest way' with 'most convenient hack'..
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2015-06-03T12:25:48Z kephra: imho, the main problem with PHP are bad tutorials, teaching how to open a webserver to SQL injections and XSS attacks - PHP would be a much better language, if you remove all tutorials teaching deprecicated language cruft
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2015-06-03T12:26:49Z eudoxia: the language itself is poorly designed and educating people to escape SQL parameters etc. won't change that
2015-06-03T12:26:55Z kephra: I also think that PHP was right to keep the cruft - e.g. Ruby/Rails sounded like a much better platform, till you use it, and realize that its so fragile, its unmaintainable
2015-06-03T12:27:01Z jackdaniel: I think it was drop-in replacement for somehow complicated perl, so nobrainer can craft his own server-side script. Fact, it grown organically to something more bearable, but it doesn't change a fact - roots are hacks
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2015-06-03T12:28:12Z kephra: http://kephra.de/mp3/A_PHP_Advise.html <- btw, when talking about PHP - lets remember where name came from: pot head pixies ... elven like creatures who smoked to much weed
2015-06-03T12:31:19Z Xach: let's not talk about php at all
2015-06-03T12:31:39Z jackdaniel: isn't it acceptable lisp after all? ;-)
2015-06-03T12:33:46Z Xach: no
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2015-06-03T12:59:55Z kephra: i would say a minimal requirement to be lisp like is that both code and data are sexpressions
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2015-06-03T13:04:05Z tuturto: but if you have data sitting on a disk, say video file. it's not s-expression
2015-06-03T13:04:33Z tuturto: nor it doesn't turn into one if you load it
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2015-06-03T13:08:10Z jackdaniel: tuturto: it was, apparently, misunderstood joke ;O
2015-06-03T13:08:31Z tuturto: ah :D
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2015-06-03T13:09:33Z jackdaniel: there was an essey "why ruby is an acceptable lisp", which was outrageous for many people, and many further posts/discussions as followups
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2015-06-03T13:09:43Z jackdaniel: like "why lisp isn't an acceptable lisp" ^_^
2015-06-03T13:10:44Z tuturto: I have to check that essay
2015-06-03T13:10:54Z tuturto: sounds like fun stuff
2015-06-03T13:10:56Z jackdaniel: don't take it too seriously tough ;-)
2015-06-03T13:11:23Z tuturto: sure
2015-06-03T13:13:08Z jackdaniel: I think I had put commas wrong -- "it was, apparently misunderstood, joke"
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2015-06-03T13:22:08Z pjb: Given type checking of slots, given the MOP, and in the case of drmeister, given the underlying C++ classes, and therefore the fact that you can have fields that are not of type T, but restricted to some subtype, we must conclude that building an object read with #= cannot (in general), be done in a single step. Creating an "object template" and using CHANGE-CLASS would have been a good idea.  It doesn't work for standard-objects, but
2015-06-03T13:22:11Z pjb: you could use your own generic function and have methods for standard-objects.
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2015-06-03T13:24:07Z pjb: With SICL, it's all nice and good that you may access the internal representation (the vector of tagged slots), and to write implementation specific #=/## dispatching reader macros, why not.  But if you add MOP and define different storage strategies for lisp objects, or check their types, you won't be able to store the placeholder.
2015-06-03T13:25:03Z pjb: clhs #=
2015-06-03T13:25:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dho.htm
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2015-06-03T13:41:43Z drmeister: pjb: your post is helping to clarify things for me. Do you have any recommendations for me for serializing c++ classes using the lisp printer/reader?
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2015-06-03T13:44:50Z drmeister: I have two ideas. (1) temporarily override the type of tagged slots to store tags and then patch (2) read and write an object template and then change-class the templates.
2015-06-03T13:45:12Z pjb: drmeister: I would advise to use another method to collect the fields. cf. https://gitlab.com/patchwork/mclgui/blob/master/macros.lisp#L191
2015-06-03T13:45:16Z drmeister: And yes, they aren't really my ideas.
2015-06-03T13:46:04Z drmeister: I'm on my phone - can't read that. Back in 10 min.
2015-06-03T13:46:19Z oleo: hello
2015-06-03T13:46:48Z pjb: In anycase, if you use conforming code to build the object, you will have to go thru initialize-instance and other type checks, so you can't use placeholder.  Eg. initialize-instance could check that some slot is eq to self!
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2015-06-03T13:47:49Z Bike: yeah :/
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2015-06-03T13:50:39Z mlybdnm: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149076 <- Isn't inlining the function enough to return unboxed floats? I get the note: "doing float to pointer coercion (cost 13) to "<return value>""
2015-06-03T13:50:51Z drmeister:  I don't need to use conforming code.
2015-06-03T13:51:43Z Bike: mlybdnm: get the note from just this code, not a usage?
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2015-06-03T13:52:44Z mlybdnm: Bike: Yes, I get that compiler note.
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2015-06-03T13:53:15Z Bike: mlybdnm: well, that's just saying that the actual function is going to return a general value, for places where it can't inline, e.g. (mapcar #'foo ...)
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2015-06-03T13:54:31Z drmeister: pjb: I need/want to serialize builtin c++ objects that extend CL. I'd like to serialize in a way that uses the lisp printer and reader. I'm
2015-06-03T13:56:02Z drmeister: Ok with non conforming code  if I can get it to have identical semantics to what CL programmers expect.
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2015-06-03T14:21:43Z drmeister: pjb: How does this https://gitlab.com/patchwork/mclgui/blob/master/macros.lisp#L191 work?
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2015-06-03T14:23:36Z drmeister: pjb: It's a macro that I stick into PRINT-OBJECT methods.
2015-06-03T14:24:07Z pjb: drmeister: Yes, you'd use print-parseable-object instead of print-unreadable-object.
2015-06-03T14:24:19Z pjb: You would have to implement a method on extract-slots for your objects.
2015-06-03T14:24:38Z drmeister: How does it deal with recursive circularity?
2015-06-03T14:24:49Z pjb: It doesn't, the lisp printer deals with that.
2015-06-03T14:24:59Z pjb: Of course, as an implementer you already have an object-identity function.
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2015-06-03T14:26:25Z Bike: it looks like it just takes the slots as an argument
2015-06-03T14:26:51Z pjb: CLHS hints that the low level printing function is WRITE.  When WRITE is given :CIRCLE T, you have to identify objects and print #=/##.
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2015-06-03T14:27:18Z drmeister: Do you have any examples of what it generates?
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2015-06-03T14:28:43Z drmeister: I can guess though
2015-06-03T14:28:55Z pjb: Of course you would adapt it to your own situation.
2015-06-03T14:29:02Z pjb: You can use the #S reader macro to read back your objects.
2015-06-03T14:29:25Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: I found a strange behaviour if one try to use a trivial-timer with hunchentoot
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2015-06-03T14:30:59Z drmeister: pjb:  I don't see that it solves the problem that I have and that you alluded to above.  The slots still need to be patched after the object is read.
2015-06-03T14:31:19Z drmeister: In cases where there is recursive circularity.
2015-06-03T14:31:52Z pjb: An example: (sdi-window :title "Test" :view-position (0 45) :position/window nil :view-size (100 100) :view-scroll-position (0 0) :view-valid (t) :dialog-item-text nil :view-nick-name nil :view-position (0 45) :position/window nil :view-size (100 100) :view-scroll-position (0 0) "#x30200592AC1D")
2015-06-03T14:32:06Z pjb: You would prefix it with #S and you'd be all set.
2015-06-03T14:32:48Z pjb: Of course, you need to implement #=/##.
2015-06-03T14:33:29Z pjb: The change-class is the right thing to do IMO.  Since standard change-class can't be applied on non standard-objects, you have to provide an implementation specific way, either an extension on change-class, or your own function to do that.
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2015-06-03T14:34:25Z Posterdati: (trivial-timers::list-all-timers)
2015-06-03T14:34:25Z Posterdati: NIL
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2015-06-03T14:34:42Z drmeister: That's what I mean.  I still have the problem that slots can be types other than T and I need to (1) be able to either stick a tag into them and then patch them in a second stage or (2) create some representation of each object and then patch that representation and CHANGE-CLASS it after everything is read.
2015-06-03T14:35:26Z pjb: Yes.  With MOP, a slot could be 1-bit!
2015-06-03T14:35:28Z drmeister: Rather, I'd use RECONSTITUTE-BUILTIN-OBJECT and not CHANGE-CLASS.
2015-06-03T14:35:38Z pjb: Sounds good.
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2015-06-03T14:36:48Z emaczen: (defcvar len :int)
2015-06-03T14:36:52Z emaczen: (setf len 0)
2015-06-03T14:36:58Z drmeister: For (1) I would limit patching to tagged pointer slots.  Non-tagged value slots would be guaranteed to not involve recursively circular data structures.
2015-06-03T14:37:01Z emaczen: What is wrong with the second form when using CFFI?
2015-06-03T14:37:21Z emaczen: Or what is the correct way to access a foreign variable
2015-06-03T14:37:37Z pjb: emaczen: try: (macroexpand '(defcvar len :int)) it should give a hint.
2015-06-03T14:38:33Z pjb: on ccl, seems to me it should work.
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2015-06-03T14:42:17Z mlybdnm: Bike: Could I do something else to silence the warning? flet, macros?
2015-06-03T14:43:29Z emaczen: pjb: What works on CCL exactly?
2015-06-03T14:45:08Z pjb: (setf len 0)
2015-06-03T14:45:30Z emaczen: I just tried it on ccl as well and it doesn't work for me...
2015-06-03T14:45:39Z pjb: Oh, sorry, I just macroexpanded it.
2015-06-03T14:45:49Z pjb: Indeed it breaks, since len is bound to no C variable.
2015-06-03T14:46:27Z jasom: Is there a good way to have a reader macro defined for just a single file?
2015-06-03T14:46:54Z pjb: emaczen: Try: (cffi::defcvar errno :int)
2015-06-03T14:47:01Z pjb: jasom: yes.
2015-06-03T14:47:24Z emaczen: pjb: errno is evaluating to 110
2015-06-03T14:47:34Z pjb: Put in the file: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (setf *readtable* (copy-readtable)) (set-macro-character …)) …
2015-06-03T14:47:42Z pjb: emaczen: yes, and you can setf it.
2015-06-03T14:48:18Z emaczen: yes, but it still retains 110 as it's value
2015-06-03T14:48:48Z Xach: jasom: named-readtables does that for you with in-readtable
2015-06-03T14:49:11Z pjb: Well, probably you should try with another variable, errno is constantly being overwritten, and since you're in a loop (remember the L of repL), you should often get the same value put in.
2015-06-03T14:49:19Z Xach: jasom: *package* and *readtable* have similar behavior with respect to LOAD and COMPILE-FILE.
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2015-06-03T14:49:52Z jasom: Xach: oh, I didn't know that.  For some reason I thought they persisted
2015-06-03T14:50:26Z Xach: jasom: it's mutable, so if you mutate it, it stays mutated. but setting it lasts only for the duration of the file.
2015-06-03T14:50:31Z pjb: jasom: mutation of the objects persist, but not bindings.
2015-06-03T14:50:48Z pjb: Notice how I first changed the binding in my example above!
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2015-06-03T14:52:53Z emaczen: pjb: From the macroexpansion of (defcvar len :int) I'm copying and pasting the accessor function body into the repl and it doesn't work.
2015-06-03T14:53:06Z pjb: What does the REPL do?
2015-06-03T14:53:23Z emaczen: It tells me: Trying to access undefined foreign variable "len".
2015-06-03T14:53:46Z pjb: Where have you defined a C variable named len?
2015-06-03T14:53:53Z pjb: In what library?
2015-06-03T14:54:10Z emaczen: This might be a misunderstanding of mine with cffi then.
2015-06-03T14:54:20Z emaczen: Is cffi just used for wrapping shared libraries?
2015-06-03T14:54:26Z mlybdnm: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149076 <- Is there a way to silence the warning? Probably using some flet/macro mindfuck or something? The warning is "note: doing float to pointer coercion (cost 13) to "<return value>"".
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2015-06-03T14:54:39Z emaczen: Or can you use cffi to write C code.
2015-06-03T14:54:41Z mlybdnm: Not a warning, a note.
2015-06-03T14:55:02Z emaczen: by wrapping I mean calling C code.
2015-06-03T14:56:53Z Xach: mlybdnm: remove the declarations
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2015-06-03T14:57:25Z mlybdnm: And without removing the declarations?
2015-06-03T14:57:37Z Xach: Dunno.
2015-06-03T14:57:51Z Xach: an sbcl expert might be able to help. there are more of them in #sbcl than in here.
2015-06-03T14:57:52Z pjb: emaczen: you cannot generate any code with cffi.
2015-06-03T14:58:09Z emaczen: Okay, so it is mostly a wrapper then.
2015-06-03T14:58:21Z pjb: emaczen: you can only access existing libraries or code already existing in the process (with the needed symbol table).
2015-06-03T14:58:38Z pjb: emaczen: you can allocate heap memory and use it.
2015-06-03T14:59:08Z mlybdnm: Xach: Thanks.
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2015-06-03T15:01:04Z pjb: emaczen: (defvar *len* (cffi:foreign-alloc :int :initial-element 0 :count 1)) (setf (cffi:mem-ref *len* :int) 42) (cffi:mem-ref *len* :int) (cffi:foreign-free *len*) (setf *len* nil)
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2015-06-03T15:04:21Z emaczen: pjb: Thanks
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2015-06-03T15:11:45Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: md5:md5sum-string is not supported for your implementation.
2015-06-03T15:11:51Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: :(
2015-06-03T15:11:57Z emaczen: I'm getting a package lock error when I try to evaluate: (defcfun "read" :int
2015-06-03T15:11:58Z emaczen: 	     (fd :int buf :pointer size :int))
2015-06-03T15:12:16Z pjb: Yes. CL:READ exists and cannot be redefined.
2015-06-03T15:12:31Z pjb: use (shadow 'read) or  (defpackage … (:shadow "READ") …)
2015-06-03T15:12:47Z pjb: or use the options of defcfun to give a different lisp name.
2015-06-03T15:12:59Z emaczen: pbj: Thanks and noted.
2015-06-03T15:13:19Z pjb: emaczen: again, to debug it, use macroexpand.
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2015-06-03T15:13:39Z emaczen: pjb: noted
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2015-06-03T15:29:31Z Bike: mlybdnm: the warning's giving you pertinent information, since you and the compiler can't know that you'll never call a function non-inlined, though this doesn't influence the performance of the inlined version. with flet you might have that guarantee
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2015-06-03T15:31:55Z mlybdnm: Bike: Could you provide me with an example?
2015-06-03T15:32:50Z Bike: (flet ((foo (a b) (declare (type double-float a b) (optimize (speed 3)) (+ a b))) (foo 4d0 5d0))?
2015-06-03T15:33:29Z Bike: forgot a paren to close the declare.
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2015-06-03T15:48:51Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: please file an issue at gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/
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2015-06-03T16:57:34Z emaczen: Hey guys, please help me out with this paste about CFFI: http://paste.lisp.org/submit
2015-06-03T16:58:28Z emaczen: Let me know if you have questions.
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2015-06-03T16:59:35Z theos: emaczen thats the form to submit
2015-06-03T16:59:46Z emaczen: http://paste.lisp.org/+371G.
2015-06-03T16:59:48Z emaczen: my bad
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2015-06-03T17:00:45Z pjb: What buf????
2015-06-03T17:01:32Z pjb: again, allocate your foreign memory!
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2015-06-03T17:04:32Z emaczen: (defparameter buf "") isn't compatible?
2015-06-03T17:05:16Z ferada: emaczen: even if you don't use the existing inotify, cl-fsnotify, or cl-notify, you could still look at their source code, because that's exactly what they're doing
2015-06-03T17:05:34Z emaczen: ferada: good idea
2015-06-03T17:05:46Z pjb: emaczen: no. "" is a lisp STRING of length 0.
2015-06-03T17:06:09Z pjb: emaczen: how do you expect to read 100 bytes into a VECTOR of 0 CHARACTER?
2015-06-03T17:06:36Z pjb: emaczen: you know, 5-yo, round pegs, square holes.  Remember?
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2015-06-03T17:06:52Z emaczen: pjb: haha, good point
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2015-06-03T17:07:06Z emaczen: Would it work if I declared a fill-pointer for buf?
2015-06-03T17:07:10Z pjb: Nope.
2015-06-03T17:07:14Z pjb: BYTE vs. CHARACTER?
2015-06-03T17:07:20Z pjb: round peg vs square hoe?
2015-06-03T17:07:24Z pjb: hole
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2015-06-03T17:08:02Z nyef: I think the gardening implement wins. d-:
2015-06-03T17:08:53Z pjb: Now, if you had a (vector (unsigned-byte 8)) you would get a better chance, but not without using implementation specific features, if any possible, to find a buffer of unsigned char used to store the data of that LISP VECTOR.  But there's zero guarantee about that.
2015-06-03T17:09:04Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: for the md5 problem I'll file a complain as you asked, for hunchentoot I understood the problem thanks to pjb... The last was my fault so thumbs up for ecl :) lol
2015-06-03T17:09:16Z pjb: emaczen: why don't you want to allocate a foreign buffer???
2015-06-03T17:09:35Z pjb: Posterdati: not necessarily. trivial-timers use threads to implement the timer.
2015-06-03T17:09:56Z pjb: Posterdati: the problem is probably your fault, for missing some mutex.
2015-06-03T17:10:20Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: I'm only waiting for the mips creator ci20 to implement the code I wrote on the beagle bone...
2015-06-03T17:10:47Z emaczen: pjb: I'm not opposed, I'm just trying things out.
2015-06-03T17:11:00Z emaczen: I'm not sure of CFFI's limitations/abilities.
2015-06-03T17:11:05Z Posterdati: pjb: I created a timer without see if it is involved in another task
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2015-06-03T17:11:21Z pjb: That's the problem with FFI, there's no direct link between lisp data and foreign data, so you need to convert back and forth all the time.
2015-06-03T17:11:36Z Posterdati: pjb: probably forcing it's timeout confuses hunchentoot
2015-06-03T17:11:51Z emaczen: Yeah, it looks like it is a bit more low-level than I though.
2015-06-03T17:11:53Z emaczen: thought*
2015-06-03T17:12:46Z Shinmera: loke: By the way, there's an AUR package for clasp. Perhaps you should try that, if you haven't yet. https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/clasp-git/
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2015-06-03T17:14:14Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: you may patch your local md5 to fallback with (md5:md5sum-sequence (flexi-streams:string-to-octets string :external-format external-format))
2015-06-03T17:14:25Z jackdaniel: instead of error
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2015-06-03T17:15:17Z jackdaniel: I doubt if md5 maintainer will want flexi-streams as dependency, but if that's a case, you could submit such patch to him
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2015-06-03T17:22:29Z Posterdati: pjb: the timer seems to be scheduled on creation!
2015-06-03T17:22:57Z pjb: The code of the timer will be run in a differnet thread than hunchentoot.
2015-06-03T17:23:25Z Posterdati: yes
2015-06-03T17:24:09Z Posterdati: this is important if I had to scan sensors in time
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2015-06-03T17:24:29Z pjb: I cannot do more telepathic debugging without seen any code!
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2015-06-03T17:24:41Z Posterdati: ok
2015-06-03T17:24:58Z jackdaniel: pjb: something doesn't work here, any ideas?
2015-06-03T17:25:02Z jackdaniel: ;-)
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2015-06-03T17:27:45Z Posterdati: http://paste.debian.net/197539/
2015-06-03T17:28:21Z emaczen: (mem-aref buf :inotify-event) -- what is wrong with the :inotify-event type here? CL is telling me that it is an "unkown CFFI type".
2015-06-03T17:28:36Z emaczen: I used defcstruct to define inotify-event
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2015-06-03T17:33:28Z LiamH: :inotify-event is not inotify-event
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2015-06-03T17:34:40Z emaczen: I tried :inotify-event 'inotify-event and inotify-event
2015-06-03T17:35:14Z pjb: You cannot read a whole structure in a single step!
2015-06-03T17:35:46Z emaczen: pjb: I don't follow
2015-06-03T17:35:54Z pjb: man inotify
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2015-06-03T17:38:03Z emaczen: Okay, I have it open and I have been reading it. But I am not sure of what I am supposed to be looking at now.
2015-06-03T17:38:18Z pjb: emaczen: you can access simple fields.
2015-06-03T17:38:29Z emaczen: I am under the impression that mem-aref would give me the first element of buf
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2015-06-03T17:39:23Z pjb: emaczen: in C, pointers are equivalent to vectors!
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2015-06-03T17:40:41Z pjb: emaczen: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Foreign-Structure-Types.html#Foreign-Structure-Types
2015-06-03T17:41:06Z emaczen: shouldn't (mem-aptr buf inotify-event) return a pointer to an inotify-event (the first one in buf)
2015-06-03T17:41:28Z pjb: Well, check the url above.
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2015-06-03T17:47:15Z emaczen: (mem-aref buf :pointer) returns a (SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X10000000001)
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2015-06-03T17:47:30Z emaczen: It isn't letting me use (:pointer (:struct inotify-event))
2015-06-03T17:47:35Z emaczen: HOw do I dereference?
2015-06-03T17:47:42Z emaczen: I tried convert-from-foreign
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2015-06-03T17:49:42Z emaczen: Isn't mem-aref supposed to dereference
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2015-06-03T17:53:39Z pjb: emaczen: for structures, it's more complicated. Notice: "Using the (:struct structure-name) form for the type, mem-aref provides a Lisp object translated from the structure (by default a plist). "
2015-06-03T17:54:01Z emaczen: pjb: That doesn't work for me.
2015-06-03T17:54:06Z pjb: In some FFI, you can use :struct-name.field-name to refer to a field.
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2015-06-03T17:54:19Z emaczen: It tells me inotify-event is an unbound-variable
2015-06-03T17:54:20Z pjb: But it doesn't seem to be the case with cffi, from the doc.
2015-06-03T17:54:31Z pjb: Then quote!
2015-06-03T17:54:38Z emaczen: I tried that
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2015-06-03T17:54:54Z emaczen: If I quote, it then tells me that :struct is an undefined function
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2015-06-03T17:55:33Z pjb: Not to me.  '(:struct :inotify-event) --> (:struct :inotify-event)
2015-06-03T17:56:22Z emaczen: I was quoting inotify-event
2015-06-03T17:56:40Z emaczen: if I quote like that, it tells me that (:struct :inotify-event) is an unkown cffi type
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2015-06-03T17:57:22Z pjb: '(:struct inotify-event) then
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2015-06-03T17:57:47Z emaczen: Same thing
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2015-06-03T17:58:20Z emaczen: Maybe my buf definition is wrong? It seemed to work this time though when I created a file in my watched directory
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2015-06-03T17:58:26Z pjb: Probably. Some debugging is in order then.
2015-06-03T17:58:28Z emaczen: Anyway: (defvar buf (foreign-alloc :string :initial-element "" :count 100))
2015-06-03T17:59:29Z pjb: Cannot work.
2015-06-03T17:59:34Z pjb: Again round peg, square holes.
2015-06-03T17:59:45Z pjb: Perhaps a pause would be in order.
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2015-06-03T18:01:00Z pjb: order that, http://www.amazon.com/Voila-S-227A-Shape-Board/dp/B008PECJRA/ref=sr_1_29?ie=UTF8&qid=1433354436&sr=8-29&keywords=toy++hole+peg  play a few hours, come back.
2015-06-03T18:02:17Z pjb: Seriously!  How can you consider putting "" into a char?
2015-06-03T18:02:30Z pjb: Or don't you know that C strings are vectors of char?
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2015-06-03T18:02:50Z emaczen: (defvar buf (foreign-alloc :pointer :count 100)) -- that is probably better
2015-06-03T18:03:00Z pjb: probably. *buf* would be even better.
2015-06-03T18:03:10Z pjb: So now you have a vector of pointers.
2015-06-03T18:03:16Z pjb: 800 bytes.
2015-06-03T18:03:35Z emaczen: (defvar buf (foreign-alloc :char :count 100)) -- that is probably even better
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2015-06-03T18:03:37Z pjb: emaczen: you should read the cffi manual from A to Z before proceeding.
2015-06-03T18:03:50Z pjb: I'll leave you 4 hours to do so.
2015-06-03T18:03:52Z emaczen: Yeah, you are right.
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2015-06-03T18:34:59Z Bike: first yes you should read the manual, and second, mem-aref returning a pointer from :pointer indicates that buf is an array of pointers, not an array of structs
2015-06-03T18:35:09Z Bike: that's the sort of thing you need to be really clear on going in
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2015-06-03T20:06:09Z mlybdnm: pjb and his round peg and square holes. :P
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2015-06-03T20:08:35Z nyef: Well, it beats using "Anthony's Law of Force" ("don't force it, use a larger hammer").
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2015-06-03T20:16:42Z selestify: sup yall
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2015-06-03T20:42:27Z ZombieChicken: Is there a short introducion to CL's basic syntax and grammar? I know it isn't terribly complex (iirc, it is simpler than C), but I'd like a reference I could use until I get used to thing
2015-06-03T20:42:29Z ZombieChicken: things*
2015-06-03T20:44:31Z Xach: ZombieChicken: http://random-state.net/features-of-common-lisp.html isn't exactly that, but it covers a lot of syntax
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2015-06-03T20:45:27Z ZombieChicken: It is a start. Thanks
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2015-06-03T20:57:45Z White_Flame: ZombieChicken: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/syntax-and-semantics.html
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2015-06-03T20:58:09Z White_Flame: more tutorial than reference, but does cover most all the basics
2015-06-03T20:58:23Z White_Flame: scroll to see the <pre> blurbs
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2015-06-03T20:58:47Z ZombieChicken: White_Flame: ty
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2015-06-03T21:30:10Z aeth: Is this a decent way to parse floats that are coming in as strings? http://paste.lisp.org/display/149107
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2015-06-03T21:43:15Z PuercoPop: aeth: you can replace cl-ppcre:scan with (position #\. string)
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2015-06-03T21:47:37Z |3b| would just use parse-number lib unless you are really sure you will never get big/small numbers as 1e4 or whatever
2015-06-03T21:47:58Z |3b|: aeth: also, don't use EQ for numbers
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2015-06-03T21:49:36Z |3b|: use = if you know both values are numbers or eql if not
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2015-06-03T21:50:15Z White_Flame: aeth: manual parsing like that can be off in terms of precision
2015-06-03T21:50:32Z White_Flame: I've ended up using the Lisp reader to parse floats, though that needs to be tread tenderly
2015-06-03T21:50:54Z White_Flame: used a regex to verify it's a float, then read that substring
2015-06-03T21:51:01Z drmeister: Where does it say that [ ] and { } are reader macro characters reserved for the programmer?  Doesn't "2.4.8 Sharpsign" refer to just sharpsign-character reader macros?
2015-06-03T21:51:12Z drmeister: clhs 2.4.8
2015-06-03T21:51:12Z specbot: Sharpsign: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dh.htm
2015-06-03T21:51:49Z White_Flame: it says so right under Figure 2-19?
2015-06-03T21:52:09Z White_Flame: oh, prepended by #, n/m
2015-06-03T21:53:00Z |3b|: clhs 2.1.4
2015-06-03T21:53:00Z specbot: Character Syntax Types: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ad.htm
2015-06-03T21:53:02Z White_Flame: clhs 2.1.4
2015-06-03T21:53:02Z specbot: Character Syntax Types: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ad.htm
2015-06-03T21:53:10Z drmeister: Yeah, that's what I thought too.  But "people" have been telling me that { } and [ ] are explicitly reserved for the programmer.
2015-06-03T21:53:20Z |3b|: marked with * in figure 2-7
2015-06-03T21:53:48Z drmeister: Thank you!  That's what I'm looking for.
2015-06-03T21:54:05Z White_Flame: however, as they're defined as constituents, the wording is a little weird to me
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2015-06-03T21:54:22Z White_Flame: if you redefine them as terminating macro characters, does that break spec?
2015-06-03T21:54:25Z |3b|: initially defined as constituents, so user can change that
2015-06-03T21:55:28Z drmeister: But then - oh the plight of the poor implementer!  There are no good base characters left over for implementation dependent reader macros.
2015-06-03T21:55:39Z |3b|: you get ~ :p
2015-06-03T21:56:34Z drmeister: ~!  Normally I wouldn't wouldn't wipe my ... with ~.
2015-06-03T21:57:12Z drmeister: Oh well - I'll think on ~.  Otherwise I'll have to add unicode support and use unicode characters.
2015-06-03T21:57:40Z Bike: ccl seems to do ok. it uses #_, #&, #$, #/, #>
2015-06-03T21:58:25Z White_Flame: there are also lots of alphabetic characters free after #
2015-06-03T21:59:54Z kephra: I was thinking to use {} and [] to start a json reader - but then I realized that a json reader would remap , and this would make quasi quotes impossible ;-(
2015-06-03T22:01:27Z nyef: kephra: Heh. Reminds me of xml-mixed-mode. Started off with a reader-macro for #\< that returned the symbol for < and <=, and otherwise started trying to parse an XML tag.
2015-06-03T22:04:08Z kephra: *yeah* reader macros are fun - even if they sometimes do not make sense - x-expressions suit a lisp/scheme much better
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2015-06-03T22:28:38Z kristof: drmeister: unicode characters are not trivial to write on a normal keyboard
2015-06-03T22:29:13Z nyef: Bah. Just use Alt + your numeric keypad to enter the UTF-8 code sequences in decimal. d-:
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2015-06-03T22:30:09Z edgar-rft: on a german keyboard it's *very* trivial to write unicode characters
2015-06-03T22:30:58Z drmeister gets Unicode characters all the time when he slams his head on the keyboard.
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2015-06-03T22:31:15Z drmeister: kristof: I was going to cross that bridge when I got to it.
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2015-06-03T23:01:13Z pjb: drmeister: remember you also have ::: available to you, as an implementer.
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2015-06-03T23:28:54Z skrue: is there a good and reliable tree-shaker for sbcl that i can use without understanding how it works?
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2015-06-03T23:30:11Z kristof: That would have to be internal to sbcl, wouldn't it?
2015-06-03T23:30:18Z kristof: Or do you mean a contrib?
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2015-06-03T23:30:23Z kristof: If so, I don't think so
2015-06-03T23:30:30Z nyef: I would suggest that there almost certainly isn't.
2015-06-03T23:30:47Z kristof: I very often wish I did not get 32MB executables
2015-06-03T23:31:03Z kristof: tree shakers would be nice. "Hey, this program will never need to dynamically compile things. Please remove the compiler."
2015-06-03T23:32:38Z nyef: Now, see, I look at it the other way. "This program will never need to dynamically compile things. Please don't put the compiler in in the first place."
2015-06-03T23:32:51Z nyef: But, either way, SBCL isn't really set up for it.
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2015-06-03T23:34:18Z kristof: nyef: While that makes more sense, you should look at it from the standpoint that you usually include the cl package first
2015-06-03T23:34:36Z kristof: and so if the cl package is included, then every function should be available defacto, which is how it is
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2015-06-03T23:34:59Z kristof: nyef: Is there a cl-minimal which removes many of the dynamic features of common-lisp?
2015-06-03T23:35:20Z nyef: There are a few delivery-focused CL implementations, if that's what you're trying to ask.
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2015-06-03T23:35:58Z kristof: I was actually talking about a package which would only have a few of the most common functions in CL, and then multiple specialized packages
2015-06-03T23:36:15Z kristof: I had imagined doing such a thing in the past. Partitioning the CL package space into logical components
2015-06-03T23:36:51Z kristof: nyef: But anyway, I guess that wouldn't actually help executable size because sbcl's delivery is dumping an entire lisp-image, not necessarily "compile-and-deliver" in a traditional sense.
2015-06-03T23:38:59Z akkad: kristof: even with tree shakers it's hard to get smaller. sbcl comes close enough for me with compression of core at 9, vs say LW using level 5 shaking
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2015-06-03T23:52:29Z jlarocco: would it be possible for a Lisp implementation to support dump a base image of itself as a shared library, then when dumping images for users, dump a smaller image that loads that's dynamically linked to the base?
2015-06-03T23:53:28Z jlarocco: so the user executable would be, say 50K, but links to the larger base image with most of the Common Lisp library
2015-06-03T23:54:09Z jlarocco: and then all of the other executables could be small and share the one base image
2015-06-03T23:54:11Z pjb`: of course.
2015-06-03T23:54:18Z pjb`: jlarocco: write such an implementation!
2015-06-03T23:54:26Z pjb`: Do like drmeister!
2015-06-03T23:54:36Z pjb`: or patch an existing one.
2015-06-03T23:55:09Z jlarocco: so it's possible?
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2015-06-03T23:55:16Z jlarocco: do any implementations do it?
2015-06-03T23:55:38Z pjb`: if you define "possible" as "computable".
2015-06-03T23:55:49Z White_Flame: I think that option's available in some of the commercial implementations
2015-06-03T23:55:59Z jlarocco: i'm afraid I don't have anywhere near the time required to implement it myself
2015-06-03T23:56:01Z pjb`: No, nobody wanted it so bad that they put $500,000 on the table to do it.
2015-06-03T23:56:04Z White_Flame: even if at the level of "don't include the compiler" etc flags
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2015-06-03T23:56:44Z drmeister: jlarocco: You are wise
2015-06-03T23:57:29Z nyef: Wasn't this the premise, more or less, of "WCL"?
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2015-06-03T23:57:36Z nyef: Or of "ECL"?
2015-06-03T23:59:09Z jlarocco: yeah, I guess so: http://pgc.com/commonlisp/
2015-06-03T23:59:18Z jlarocco: very similar, at least
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2015-06-04T00:00:38Z pillton: I think the attractiveness of shared libraries is misplaced.
2015-06-04T00:01:26Z jlarocco: i'm not sure
2015-06-04T00:03:06Z pillton: A library written in C++ that is compiled to a shared library using one C++ compiler is not guaranteed to be usable by an application that is compiled using a different C++ compiler.
2015-06-04T00:03:12Z jlarocco: if I dump an SBCL image, I get a ~65-70 Mb file
2015-06-04T00:04:04Z jlarocco: if I create a few images of different programs, the size adds up, and most of it's the same base CL stuff
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2015-06-04T00:04:28Z White_Flame: pillton: which is why all non-system languages need to be transparently (re)compiled on the target
2015-06-04T00:04:55Z White_Flame: a pox on C for shoving a systems language into application language space
2015-06-04T00:05:51Z jlarocco: @pillton technically true, but there are work arounds
2015-06-04T00:06:11Z pillton: I don't think the fault is to do with C. Tools have to be provided by the system in order to access the system's functionality.
2015-06-04T00:06:30Z White_Flame: sure
2015-06-04T00:06:36Z pillton: Why they are used in other compilers is beyond me.
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2015-06-04T00:08:18Z p_l: anyone got a Genera system on hand? :D
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2015-06-04T00:12:23Z pillton: jlarocco: Some people create a single image containing all of their programs. They dispatch based on the name used to invoke the program.
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2015-06-04T00:13:18Z pillton: jlarocco: Some implementations provide support for concatenating FASL files.
2015-06-04T00:13:35Z pillton: jlarocco: I use the REPL the most.
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2015-06-04T00:17:45Z drmeister: I have builtin C++ classes PRINTing and READing - yay!
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2015-06-04T00:17:58Z pjb: Using #S?
2015-06-04T00:18:51Z drmeister: I defined #I
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2015-06-04T00:19:27Z drmeister: Then emacs does parenthesis matching for me.  I didn't like losing that.
2015-06-04T00:19:34Z drmeister: (setf *test* #I(CHEM:ATOM-TEST CHEM-KEYWORD::INT 3 CHEM-KEYWORD::TEST CHEM-KEYWORD::|SAPRingSize| ))
2015-06-04T00:20:05Z pjb: You could have used #S, since it's the same syntax and there's the class/structure name to do the dispatch.
2015-06-04T00:20:13Z drmeister: (let ((*print-readably* t)) (print *test*)) --> #I(CHEM:ATOM-TEST CHEM-KEYWORD::INT 3 CHEM-KEYWORD::TEST CHEM-KEYWORD::|SAPRingSize| )
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2015-06-04T00:22:26Z drmeister: Then I'd have to implement constructors for these builtin classes wouldn't I?
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2015-06-04T00:23:04Z drmeister: What I did was implement (CORE:MAKE-BUILTIN {class-name} {plist of args} )
2015-06-04T00:23:21Z drmeister: My #I reader macro looks like this:
2015-06-04T00:23:42Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/uNrWQmiK/
2015-06-04T00:23:56Z pjb: Then after testing the first element of the list, you could _dispatch_ to watever constructor you want.
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2015-06-04T00:24:35Z drmeister: Does #S allow non-keyword symbol arguments?
2015-06-04T00:25:48Z drmeister: It seems to require keyword symbols for slot names.
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2015-06-04T00:26:29Z drmeister: I could use keyword symbols for slot names but I currently don't because I'd have to make some major changes to how I build the symbol table for C++.
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2015-06-04T00:28:19Z drmeister: That's not the best reason.
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2015-06-04T00:30:21Z drmeister: I'm pretty happy with this though.  I can serialize objects using the printer/reader
2015-06-04T00:32:51Z drmeister: This is all you need on the C++ side to make it work.
2015-06-04T00:32:53Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/Jj2L62gk/
2015-06-04T00:33:43Z drmeister: You can set it up to only generate fields if they aren't equal to a default value (printing), or fill in the default value if it's not supplied (reading).
2015-06-04T00:34:33Z drmeister: Plain Old Data (pod) fields are converted back and forth between C++ values and Common Lisp values automatically by the same converters I use to convert function argument/return values.
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2015-06-04T00:36:15Z drmeister: This also provides a way to initialize these exposed C++ classes (core:make-builtin 'chem:atom-test 'chem-keyword::test 'chem-keyword::|logicalIdentity| ... )
2015-06-04T00:36:23Z drmeister: I should really use keyword arguments.
2015-06-04T00:36:41Z drmeister: Then it will look like MAKE-INSTANCE
2015-06-04T00:37:19Z drmeister: Also, this "fields" function generates and consumes an a-list, so it will be compatible with cl-conspack once I get all the systems that cl-conspack needs working with Clasp (sigh).
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2015-06-04T00:39:11Z drmeister: It should be fast as well.  Those INTERN_(chemkw,xxx) C++ macros (shudder) generate C++ global variables that reference Common Lisp symbols directly.  That's as opposed to my previous approaches that used strings as slot names (bleh).
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2015-06-04T00:40:40Z drmeister: And flexible.  If I add a new slot and add an entry to the "fields" function with a default then it will be able to read old printed definitions of objects because it will fill in slots that are missing entries with default values.
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2015-06-04T00:42:29Z drmeister: C++ classes defined this way are managed by the garbage collector.  So they extend Clasp Common Lisp without adding memory management and different, incompatible memory model headaches.
2015-06-04T00:42:42Z aeth: so there's =, eq, eql, equal, and equalp? also string= and string-equal?
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2015-06-04T00:42:58Z White_Flame: aeth: yes
2015-06-04T00:43:02Z pjb: drmeister: you are an implementer: you have super powers! You can make #S accept non keywords, EVEN if it was not specified by the CLHS, as long as you _document_ it!
2015-06-04T00:43:08Z drmeister: aeth: Yep, Common Lisp has all kinds of equal.
2015-06-04T00:43:12Z aeth: = is for numbers... which one is for strings? (equal, string=, string-equal?) which one is for symbols (eq? eql?)
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2015-06-04T00:43:27Z drmeister: EQ is for symbols.
2015-06-04T00:43:28Z pjb: drmeister: an implementer can implement a super set of the CL language, as long as he _documents_ it!
2015-06-04T00:44:03Z drmeister: That's what I'm doing here, writing documentation :-)
2015-06-04T00:44:04Z aeth: ok, at least I was right in my code to use eq for symbols
2015-06-04T00:44:10Z White_Flame: string-equal ignores case
2015-06-04T00:44:21Z aeth: oh
2015-06-04T00:44:31Z White_Flame: (which is confusing, because equal respects case, and equalp is case insensitive when used against strings)
2015-06-04T00:44:43Z aeth: oops, I used equal somewhere and made the string go uppercase before testing
2015-06-04T00:45:28Z White_Flame: so string-equal acts more like equalp
2015-06-04T00:45:33Z White_Flame: and not like equal
2015-06-04T00:45:39Z pjb: yes.
2015-06-04T00:45:55Z pjb: string= is like equal, for strings.
2015-06-04T00:46:41Z pjb: Notice that (equal a "abc") is more strict than (string= a "abc"), since (string= '|abc| "abc") but not (equal '|abc| "abc").
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2015-06-04T00:46:55Z pjb: Sometimes, when testing strings, you will prefer equal or equalp over string= or string-equal.
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2015-06-04T00:51:37Z aeth: turns out I need equalp instead of equal in this specific instance
2015-06-04T00:52:01Z aeth: case insensitive string-keyed hash table (long story as to why it had to be that way)
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2015-06-04T01:01:30Z tumba: I would like to start reading the comp.lang.lisp, but my ISP doesn't offer USENET access. Would any of you recommend a provider? I don't mind paying something for it, but it seems that most of the services out there cater to people looking to download large amounts of binary data and charge accordingly.
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2015-06-04T01:04:54Z pillton: I thought you could read and post using Google groups.
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2015-06-04T01:22:20Z pinterface: tumba: eternal-september.org
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2015-06-04T01:25:24Z tumba: pinterface: Thanks!
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2015-06-04T02:03:40Z Xach uses news.individual.net
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2015-06-04T02:15:53Z akkad: how active is that list?
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2015-06-04T02:22:24Z pjb: what list?
2015-06-04T02:22:44Z pjb: How can you say whether the list (1 2 3) is active or not?
2015-06-04T02:23:20Z akkad: re: <tumba> I would like to start reading the comp.lang.lisp, but my ISP doesn't
2015-06-04T02:23:51Z pjb: yes, but there's no list in there, therefore the general context takes over.
2015-06-04T02:24:18Z pjb: akkad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet
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2015-06-04T02:25:58Z akkad: rau had it right
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2015-06-04T02:27:11Z pjb: akkad: also, in the context of the internet, with eternal memory, activity has no purpose.  Read the archives!
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2015-06-04T03:51:47Z pinterface realizes he's no longer included in Planet Lisp and gets sad.
2015-06-04T03:52:58Z nyef: pinterface: It should be simple enough to be included once more: Blog, regularly, steadily, on Lisp and Lisp-related things.
2015-06-04T03:53:20Z nyef: Not necessarily easy, but simple.
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2015-06-04T04:00:51Z pinterface: Yup.  If I apply myself, maybe one day I'll be good enough to rejoin the club.
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2015-06-04T04:01:52Z nyef: Might not even take much.
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2015-06-04T04:39:05Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-06-04T05:10:06Z drmeister: Hi beach
2015-06-04T05:11:38Z drmeister: I got serialization of C++ objects using PRINTing/READing to work - thanks for your help on that.
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2015-06-04T05:12:27Z beach: Congratulations!
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2015-06-04T05:12:53Z beach: Not sure I was being helpful.
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2015-06-04T05:18:24Z aeth: is running TIME to test functions useful?
2015-06-04T05:18:34Z drmeister: Yes - it's generating stuff like this:  #I(CHEM:CHEM-INFO CHEM-KEYWORD::ROOT #I(CHEM:SMARTS-ROOT CHEM-KEYWORD::TESTS #I(HASH-TABLE-EQ CORE::DATA #A(T (0) ()) CORE::REHASH-THRESHOLD 1.0d0 CORE::REHASH-SIZE 2.0d0 ) CHEM-KEYWORD::CHAIN #I(#1=CHEM:CHAIN #2=CHEM-KEYWORD::TAIL #I(#1# #2# #I(#1# #2# #I(#1# #2# #I(#1# #3=CHEM-KEYWORD::HEAD #I(#4=CHEM:BOND-TEST
2015-06-04T05:18:34Z drmeister: #5=CHEM-KEYWORD::ATOM-TEST #I(#6=CHEM:ATOM-TEST #7=CHEM-KEYWORD::SYM #8=:C #9=CHEM-KEYWORD::TEST #10=CHEM-KEYWORD::|SAPElement| ) #11=CHEM-KEYWORD::BOND #12=CHEM-KEYWORD::|SABSingleOrAromaticBond| ) ) #3# #I(#4# #5# #I(#6# #7# #8# #9# #10# ) #11# #12# ) ) #3# #I(#4# #5# #I(#6# #7# #8# #9# #10# ) #11# #12# ) ) #3# #I(#4# #5# #I(#6# #7# #8# #9# #10# ) #11#
2015-06-04T05:18:34Z drmeister: #12# ) ) #3# #I(#4# #5# #I(#6# #7# #8# #9# #10# ) #11# #12# ) ) CHEM-KEYWORD::FIRST-TEST #I(#6# #7# #8# #9# #10# ) ) )
2015-06-04T05:19:17Z drmeister: Octothorps forever!
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2015-06-04T05:27:33Z akkad: does compile-file also compile dependencies?
2015-06-04T05:27:41Z akkad: e.g. load.lisp which loads main.lisp ...
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2015-06-04T05:31:53Z drmeister: beach: The idea of running roughshod over the type temporarily between reading and patching worked fine.
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2015-06-04T05:32:19Z drmeister: akkad: No, compile-file doesn't compile dependencies.
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2015-06-04T05:34:21Z drmeister: compile-file will not compile files that are loaded transitively.
2015-06-04T05:34:51Z akkad: ok
2015-06-04T05:35:03Z drmeister: That's the role that ASDF fills.  Although you need to do more than just load files.
2015-06-04T05:35:08Z akkad: trying to get the forms I'm using that keep spending too much time in %eval
2015-06-04T05:35:36Z drmeister: Are you sure you should be using eval?  I almost never use it.
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2015-06-04T05:36:03Z akkad: eval is being used because I am not properly compiling my forms before hand
2015-06-04T05:36:32Z drmeister: Oh, you mean when you LOAD your files.  I got it.
2015-06-04T05:36:44Z xj54y: someone, Lisp is beautiful. I'm getting a headache.
2015-06-04T05:37:18Z drmeister: akkad: use ASDF and set up a system - it will take care of that stuff for you.
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2015-06-04T05:37:27Z akkad: nice, I must learn that
2015-06-04T05:37:44Z akkad: finding scrypt WAY too slow on non-sbcl
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2015-06-04T05:47:31Z beach: drmeister: What's next on your agenda with respect to Clasp?
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2015-06-04T06:20:07Z xj54y: I just drew out a historical map of Lisp and it's dialects.. Really looks like a PDP-10 backplane
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2015-06-04T06:21:22Z akkad: xj54y: using *features* ? :P
2015-06-04T06:21:30Z xj54y: akkad, hush, you...
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2015-06-04T06:23:21Z beach: xj54y: Is it something you drew yourself or something you found on the web?
2015-06-04T06:23:30Z xj54y: beach, pen and paper
2015-06-04T06:24:17Z xj54y: Are there any online? It'd be interesting to compare
2015-06-04T06:26:09Z Shinmera: There's a very simple one on wiki. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/71b23fdea3320ea89f55ced33e678ab2.png
2015-06-04T06:29:20Z xj54y: Shinmera, yeah, nothing like that. :p
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2015-06-04T06:33:31Z tuturto: xj54y: sound cool, any chance getting that online?
2015-06-04T06:33:35Z tuturto: would be interesting to see
2015-06-04T06:35:17Z xj54y: tuturto, oh.. Hmm.. I've not really thought about that. I'm just getting started with Lisp (again) and realized I have no idea of its origins. So, I drew it all out (call it homework if you will). Hadn't thought about putting it online but, i'll formalise it soon. :-)
2015-06-04T06:36:31Z Shinmera: xj54y: If you're interested in history, this is a good snippet on Common Lisp. https://soundcloud.com/zach-beane/peter-seibel-common-lisp
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2015-06-04T06:38:03Z akkad: Shinmera: thanks
2015-06-04T06:38:11Z tuturto: I'll give it a listen, thanks
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2015-06-04T06:38:54Z tuturto: I'm just interested what kinds of implementations there are and how they relate to each other
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2015-06-04T06:39:15Z tuturto: and who borrowed what from where and ran with it ;P
2015-06-04T06:39:26Z xj54y: Shinmera, I'll give it a listen here soon. Gratsi ^^
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2015-06-04T06:39:59Z Shinmera: skrue: As for tree shaking in SBCL, there's https://www.snellman.net/blog/archive/2005-07-06.html but there's no guarantee that'll still work in recent SBCLs, or work at all for your specific task.
2015-06-04T06:40:09Z tuturto: I got originally interested in lisps because of Abuse and then later started playing with Hy and then with others
2015-06-04T06:40:54Z Shinmera: jlarocco: If you have SBCL with core compression, a resulting executable/image will be around 15-18mb usually.
2015-06-04T06:41:32Z kristof: is it me or is this channel more active now?
2015-06-04T06:41:40Z Shinmera: kristof: More active compared to when?
2015-06-04T06:41:42Z kristof: compared to 6-8 months ago
2015-06-04T06:41:52Z Shinmera: Seems about the same to me.
2015-06-04T06:42:02Z xj54y: Arguably, far too many.
2015-06-04T06:42:03Z kristof: maybe I'm imagining it
2015-06-04T06:42:22Z kristof: Been idling around here since '13
2015-06-04T06:43:04Z akkad: being able to deploy a single binary is nice
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2015-06-04T06:43:28Z Shinmera: kristof: Same for me.
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2015-06-04T06:44:56Z Shinmera: xj54y: Also worth reading are http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/history/lisp/lisp.html and http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/cl-untold-story.html
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2015-06-04T07:32:16Z smokeink: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149148 any idea guys ?
2015-06-04T07:32:16Z minion: smokeink, memo from Shinmera: The kdebindings-smokeqt package from the AUR works just fine.
2015-06-04T07:32:58Z Shinmera: ^disregard that, Qtools should compile smoke automatically by itself now
2015-06-04T07:34:15Z smokeink: ok
2015-06-04T07:34:28Z smokeink: how to pass memos to minion ?
2015-06-04T07:36:17Z smokeink: got it, minion told me
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2015-06-04T07:52:25Z loz1: morning guys
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2015-06-04T07:57:26Z kami: Good morning.
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2015-06-04T08:03:15Z smokeink: morning
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2015-06-04T10:00:19Z knobo: What is the impact on the lisp commuity that corman lisp is released with MIT license?
2015-06-04T10:00:35Z knobo: Or will it have any impact?
2015-06-04T10:00:46Z knobo: I don't know anything about corman lisp
2015-06-04T10:01:28Z pjb: One more MS-Windows implementation.  But 32-bit.  IIRC, sbcl and ccl works in 64-bit on MS-Windows too.
2015-06-04T10:02:28Z pjb: It may be interesting, to be able to continue using lisp applications written in Corman CL on MS-Windows.
2015-06-04T10:03:34Z splittist: knobo: an interesting code base, different implementation techniques
2015-06-04T10:03:43Z pjb: The impact should be minimal, for the lateness of this relicensing.
2015-06-04T10:04:23Z pjb: If it had been free software before perl ruby or python were designed, perhaps it would have had a bigger impact, translated in number of programmers using lisp.
2015-06-04T10:07:46Z splittist: a more visible existence proof that a one-person CL implementation is possible
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2015-06-04T10:20:57Z knobo: ok :)
2015-06-04T10:22:14Z knobo: interesting
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2015-06-04T10:40:30Z loz1: how can i skip signals from form, but still handle errors?
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2015-06-04T10:51:55Z pillton: What do you mean by skip signals?
2015-06-04T10:52:18Z loz1: >Use handler-bind instead of handler-case doesn't unwind the stack when handling errors
2015-06-04T10:52:32Z loz1: does this mean you cant invoke restarts in handler-case ?
2015-06-04T10:53:10Z loz1: pillton: i found that invoking 'continue restart is what i was looking for
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2015-06-04T10:53:29Z loz1: pillton: now i wonder what is difference between handler-bind and handler-case :)
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2015-06-04T10:56:54Z pillton: I am a bit rusty with the two as I very very rarely use restarts. I would have a look at chapter 19 in practical common lisp.
2015-06-04T10:57:43Z Xach: loz1: handler-bind handlers run in the context of where the error occurs. handler-case runs in the context where the handler is defined.
2015-06-04T10:58:28Z Xach: loz1: handler-bind handlers have the option to keep going at the error-location level. in handler-case, it's too late, everything has returned up to the handler-case level.
2015-06-04T10:58:44Z loz1: Xach: good explanation, thank you!
2015-06-04T10:59:59Z loz1: Xach: so handler-case is much like try/catch in other languages?
2015-06-04T11:00:39Z Xach: loz1: yes
2015-06-04T11:04:13Z Cymew: splittist: Can you share some more details about the "different implementation techniques" of Corman CL?
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2015-06-04T11:11:07Z loz1: Xach: can't figure out how to continue package downloading in ql after i get 'cbuf-progress signal
2015-06-04T11:14:44Z Xach: loz1: with what control structure?
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2015-06-04T11:15:59Z loz1: Xach: https://gist.github.com/maximvl/fb23a02fb09e830ab54e
2015-06-04T11:16:48Z loz1: r is nil in that case
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2015-06-04T11:23:28Z Xach: loz1: if you don't do a non-local transfer of control, the handler is said to "decline" to handle the condition, so it continues
2015-06-04T11:23:35Z Xach: loz1: why do you want to handle cbuf-progress?
2015-06-04T11:24:00Z loz1: but it continues because there is no 'continue restart
2015-06-04T11:24:25Z Xach: loz1: I am not sure what your goal is
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2015-06-04T11:24:40Z Xach: loz1: do you want to stop everything when progress is signaled?
2015-06-04T11:24:49Z loz1: Xach: cause with handler-case i'm catching signal, instead of loading system
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2015-06-04T11:25:06Z Xach: loz1: ok, you should never use "t" in handler-case
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2015-06-04T11:25:07Z loz1: Xach: nope, i want to continue
2015-06-04T11:25:52Z Xach: loz1: what is the goal of your handler-case?
2015-06-04T11:25:59Z loz1: what if i'm working with many systems and libraries and want to handle all errors?
2015-06-04T11:26:11Z Xach: loz1: then handle ERROR
2015-06-04T11:26:12Z loz1: excluding cbuf-progress :)
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2015-06-04T11:26:23Z Xach: loz1: CBUF-PROGRESS is not an ERROR, it is a CONDITION
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2015-06-04T11:40:54Z Xach: loz1: but it's not usually a great idea to handle all errors, either
2015-06-04T11:42:20Z loz1: Xach: but what should you do then? i dont want my system to fall into debugger
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2015-06-04T11:46:14Z Xach: loz1: what do you want to happen instead?
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2015-06-04T11:46:55Z loz1: Xach: now i'm just collecting errors and sometimes checking them
2015-06-04T11:47:26Z Xach: loz1: it is usually preferable to handle errors you understand, but if you want to handle them all, you can handle them all.
2015-06-04T11:47:58Z Xach: but the distinction between conditions and errors is important
2015-06-04T11:48:13Z loz1: ye, i got it now
2015-06-04T11:49:50Z loz1: i wonder, if there is any practice to "save" thread which got error with debugger session for later debug?
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2015-06-04T12:25:29Z Shinmera: So, this is a problem that I've been having for quite a long time now and I don't know why. My webserver is running hunchentoot on SBCL, and once or twice every month all connections time out. The reason for that is that the process runs out of file descriptors. When I look at the file descriptors that are open for the process, there's about a thousand of them that don't ever seem to get closed. Trying to shut
2015-06-04T12:25:31Z Shinmera: down hunchentoot results in it just hanging idly forever. The only thing I can do is to restart the process entirely. Does anyone know why this happens, what can be done to avoid it, or if there's a way to forcibly close the FDs without restarting the image completely?
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2015-06-04T12:29:46Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: what kind of file descriptors ?
2015-06-04T12:30:28Z Shinmera: sockets
2015-06-04T12:30:53Z Shinmera: There's only one hunchentoot thread left though (the listener), so that suggests to me that some sockets aren't properly closed for unknown reasons.
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2015-06-04T12:36:41Z nyef: Shinmera: Use lsof to get a list of the file descriptors that need to be closed, then sb-unix:unix-close them?
2015-06-04T12:37:04Z nyef: (Yes, shockingly manual process, I know.)
2015-06-04T12:37:19Z Shinmera: Ah, I can do it just like that?
2015-06-04T12:37:34Z Shinmera: I was looking around for a way to force close sockets, but didn't find any. Thanks!
2015-06-04T12:37:34Z nyef: Well, it's worth a shot, isn't it?
2015-06-04T12:37:45Z Shinmera: Sure. I'll try that next time it happens.
2015-06-04T12:37:59Z nyef: Wait, "next time it happens"?
2015-06-04T12:38:06Z Shinmera: Well I already restarted my image
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2015-06-04T12:38:24Z nyef: Ah. So you'll need to wait a day or so for it to build up some orphaned file descriptors. I see.
2015-06-04T12:38:48Z Shinmera: Looking at the descriptors that were open, it only starts accumulating them after a good while.
2015-06-04T12:38:56Z nyef: Hrm.
2015-06-04T12:39:00Z Shinmera: (the ones open were all starting from the 27th or so)
2015-06-04T12:39:06Z nyef: Sounds like there's something else going on.
2015-06-04T12:39:17Z Shinmera: I honestly don't know what could be going on.
2015-06-04T12:40:22Z nyef: Are you monitoring your heap size and system load over time?
2015-06-04T12:40:50Z Shinmera: No
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2015-06-04T12:41:17Z nyef: Peak concurrent connections over time, thread count over time?
2015-06-04T12:41:41Z Shinmera: I should set that up sometime, but I'm not monitoring anything.
2015-06-04T12:41:47Z Shinmera: Right now I mean
2015-06-04T12:42:30Z nyef: So, almost anything could be going wrong slowly over time, kicking over a threshold after most of a month?
2015-06-04T12:43:03Z Shinmera: The heap certainly isn't running out, I know at least that much.
2015-06-04T12:43:13Z Shinmera: But yes.
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2015-06-04T12:43:23Z nyef: Or it could be a monthly spike of requests from some spider, worm, or other net creature that somehow triggers a failure mode somewhere.
2015-06-04T12:43:52Z Shinmera: It isn't regular either, that's another thing I know. But yes, I should set up some form of monitoring.
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2015-06-04T12:45:41Z loz1: Shinmera: just take some load generating tool and test with it
2015-06-04T12:46:12Z loz1: Shinmera: like tsung https://github.com/processone/tsung
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2015-06-04T12:46:29Z Shinmera: How many god damn load testers are there
2015-06-04T12:46:52Z p_l: Shinmera: don't ask
2015-06-04T12:46:55Z p_l: too many
2015-06-04T12:48:50Z Shinmera: I think I'll write a tiny monitoring tool for Radiance later today.
2015-06-04T12:49:17Z nyef: There's also the possibility of "just" combining a fork-bomb and wget to do your load testing. (-:
2015-06-04T12:50:37Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: use siege
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2015-06-04T12:50:50Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: That's what I've been using before.
2015-06-04T12:51:21Z Shinmera: Anyway, I'll do some more testing later today and come back when I have some more tangible results.
2015-06-04T12:51:33Z loz1: whats radiance?
2015-06-04T12:51:46Z Shinmera: loz1: A web application environment.
2015-06-04T12:52:08Z fe[nl]ix: it may be that the server is leaking sockets only in case of network error
2015-06-04T12:52:31Z fe[nl]ix: which smells like missing unwind-protect
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2015-06-04T12:52:44Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: My guess is either that, or something to do with direct file transfer as I've had weird cases where larger files didn't get delivered at all.
2015-06-04T12:52:58Z Shinmera: But the latter might be completely unrelated too.
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2015-06-04T12:53:24Z Shinmera: loz1: If you don't mind terrible accents, here's a short talk about it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVNbn99jGRk
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2015-06-04T12:53:39Z loz1: Shinmera: i'll check it, thanks
2015-06-04T12:53:59Z loz1 still can't run clack web app
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2015-06-04T13:07:29Z Xach: i ran out of file descriptors because of how i was using run-program
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2015-06-04T13:15:41Z nyef: minion used to run out of file descriptors All The Time, due to some bugs in how it queried cliki.
2015-06-04T13:16:00Z nyef: minion: Isn't that right?
2015-06-04T13:16:00Z minion: does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you?
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2015-06-04T13:32:49Z loz1: Xach: and how did you use it?
2015-06-04T13:35:11Z Xach: loz1: i was using it to get strings of output without properly collecting the processes at the end
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2015-06-04T14:04:44Z myztic: anyone here using common lisp as day-to-day scripting language (python/ruby/... replacement) and could share some experience?
2015-06-04T14:05:08Z jdz: myztic: there's cl-launch
2015-06-04T14:08:04Z dim: myztic: I am using CL whenever I need to write code nowadays, and I would say that I've switched from little non-maintainable scripts to real applications solving the problem for real, with logs and advanced options and all
2015-06-04T14:08:48Z dim: basically writing a quick script used to take easily a day before it's doing what it needs to, nowadays with CL it's still a day of work but it's a full blown solution to that very little problem
2015-06-04T14:08:56Z Xach: i use cl for scripty stuff sometimes, but one-off hacks i usually run from within slime
2015-06-04T14:09:01Z dim: well that's the spirit
2015-06-04T14:09:15Z dim: oh, I didn't even think about one off hacks
2015-06-04T14:09:32Z oGMo: i wrote/use ScriptL, which provides command-line calling to your running lisp, with some readline etc stuff
2015-06-04T14:09:34Z dim: the previous bits were about scripts I have to ship and someone else than me will run / integrate
2015-06-04T14:10:00Z oGMo: nice for hacking in emacs while "running" the code from your terminal
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2015-06-04T14:10:11Z dim: I use buildapp from a Makefile with automatic quicklisp integration to build a binary image, so I "compile" my scripts down to machine code
2015-06-04T14:10:43Z dim: when I have the chance of operating the code myself I make it so that I have a swank port to connect to, yes
2015-06-04T14:11:18Z Xach: same
2015-06-04T14:11:53Z dim: Xach: I guess, I learnt the trick from you IIRC ;-)
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2015-06-04T14:16:34Z dlowe: I just use sbcl --script
2015-06-04T14:16:47Z myztic: Xach: what about shly http://shlyfile.org/
2015-06-04T14:17:22Z myztic: but how advanced does one have to be in cl to use it successfully? I guess it is much(!) easier getting into python / ruby isn't it?
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2015-06-04T14:18:17Z myztic: lisp has the reputation of being kind of an expert's language
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2015-06-04T14:18:28Z dlowe: it's somewhat easier, I think.
2015-06-04T14:19:15Z dlowe: lisp has all sorts of undeserved reputations
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2015-06-04T14:20:08Z dlowe: there are many fine introductory books online and on paper that you can use.
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2015-06-04T14:20:30Z dim: it's true tho that there are way more features included in lisp than in python, and that learning the API takes time, at least with common lisp learning the language is very easy and quickly done
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2015-06-04T14:23:24Z dlowe: I have an idea for another batteries-included common lisp distribution. It would use sbcl as a base, quicklisp for installs. But... it wouldn't use COMMON-LISP-USER as the default package. It would use BATTERIES-USER, which would use BATTERIES, which would contain local package nicknames for the pre-installed packages
2015-06-04T14:23:34Z dlowe: (replace BATTERIES with whatever)
2015-06-04T14:24:02Z dlowe: so under BATTERIES, the CL-PPCRE package would just be RE
2015-06-04T14:24:31Z myztic: dlowe: dim: book / online tutorial -> any suggestions maybe? :)
2015-06-04T14:24:32Z dlowe: It'd be a bit like hungarian CL, I guess.
2015-06-04T14:24:32Z dim: appart from making docs harder to find, what would it provide? ;-)
2015-06-04T14:24:32Z Xach: debian 1st
2015-06-04T14:24:47Z dlowe: Xach: haha. yes.
2015-06-04T14:24:50Z dim: myztic: Practical Common Lisp
2015-06-04T14:24:58Z Xach: myztic: i don't think i've heard of it
2015-06-04T14:25:23Z dlowe: but I have a reinforced habit of blabbing about things that should happen on here, and then eventually someone does them. Like local package nicknames.
2015-06-04T14:25:57Z myztic: dim: thank you :)
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2015-06-04T14:26:37Z dlowe: myztic: some people prefer the style of Land of Lisp
2015-06-04T14:26:47Z myztic: dim: it's also available online, though if it's any good I'll most likely buy it at some point
2015-06-04T14:26:51Z dlowe is not one of those people, but it's still worth mentioning.
2015-06-04T14:27:08Z myztic: dlowe: it's on my list, seems super interesting
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2015-06-04T14:28:14Z myztic: Guess I will autojoin this channel
2015-06-04T14:28:23Z myztic: will try to keep stupid questions to a minimum though ;)
2015-06-04T14:28:53Z dlowe: stupid questions are fine.  #clnoobs is a place specialized for them
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2015-06-04T14:29:05Z myztic: dlowe: they are not always fine
2015-06-04T14:29:17Z myztic: if it's something obvious, or that could have been found out very easily
2015-06-04T14:29:24Z myztic: then they are not fine
2015-06-04T14:29:40Z dlowe: shrug. That's what #clnoobs is exactly for.
2015-06-04T14:29:59Z dim: it's fine as long as you accept that the answer might be a link to the docs, and that you then read the docs before asking the next one, IMNSHO
2015-06-04T14:30:22Z myztic: very often it is a big help for me to just frame question
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2015-06-04T14:30:34Z dim: it's called "rubber duck debugging"
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2015-06-04T14:31:03Z myztic: just by formulating the question perfectly and ruling out the obvious so to not make an idiot out of myself
2015-06-04T14:31:08Z myztic: I find the solutions to my problems :D
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2015-06-04T15:36:42Z Posterdati|2: hi
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2015-06-04T18:59:26Z emaczen: I've loaded foreign libraries (I've followed the curl tutorial in the CFFI user manual) but how can I load my own C functions with CFFI?
2015-06-04T19:00:08Z |3b|: put them in a foreign library, then use cffi (or hack the runtime of your implementation of choice)
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2015-06-04T19:00:48Z emaczen: |3b|: Can you give me an example? I'm not sure what "put them in a foreign library" means.
2015-06-04T19:01:13Z emaczen: If I have a file test.c that contains a function test(), how can I load that "foreign library"?
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2015-06-04T19:01:22Z |3b|: compile the c code to a .so or .dll or .dylib, specifics depend on C toolchain/os
2015-06-04T19:01:23Z DeadTrickster: Hey! Question: my sbcl crashes with heap exhausted error, I'm trying to increase --dynamic-space-size but it looks like this options is completely ignored. What can I do?
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2015-06-04T19:01:45Z emaczen: |3b|: Thanks I should be able to figure that out then.
2015-06-04T19:01:47Z |3b|: DeadTrickster: order of options to sbcl matters, try putting it before other options
2015-06-04T19:01:58Z DeadTrickster: really? lol
2015-06-04T19:02:13Z dlowe: that seems... unprofessional
2015-06-04T19:02:19Z H4ns: emaczen: when you're on linux, try http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Program-Library-HOWTO/shared-libraries.html
2015-06-04T19:02:27Z |3b|: DeadTrickster: there are 3 or so things parsing options in sbcl, the runtime, the lisp code, and user code, so it is a bit messy :/
2015-06-04T19:02:45Z DeadTrickster: yea I remember something related
2015-06-04T19:02:53Z H4ns: other implementations share that behavior.  allegro cl is particularly messy
2015-06-04T19:02:53Z DeadTrickster: like runtime options first
2015-06-04T19:03:00Z |3b|: right
2015-06-04T19:04:00Z francogrex: linj is making me like Java
2015-06-04T19:04:06Z francogrex: cl+j also
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2015-06-04T19:05:02Z DeadTrickster: wow it didn't crashed this time with same dynamic size. The stat looks like this so far: 2or3 successful   runs and 15 fails with heap exhaust
2015-06-04T19:05:42Z DeadTrickster: maybe it depends on moon position or something
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2015-06-04T19:23:53Z emaczen: If a C function has a printf statement, where does this get printed when calling it from Lisp with CFFI?
2015-06-04T19:24:04Z emaczen: Should it print in the REPL?
2015-06-04T19:24:42Z dlowe: it probably prints it to stdout regardless
2015-06-04T19:24:54Z dlowe: if you're using slime, it'll show up in your inferior-lisp buffer
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2015-06-04T19:26:42Z francogrex: it can show up in the inferior-lisp buffer but not necessarily... I think a forced output is needed
2015-06-04T19:28:09Z dlowe: most libcs will flush on a line break
2015-06-04T19:29:31Z francogrex: pjb: I see you have been secretly working on Linc? I see it in http://www.informatimago.com/...
2015-06-04T19:29:35Z francogrex: :)
2015-06-04T19:30:12Z emaczen: francogrex: Yes it is not printing in *inferior-lisp*
2015-06-04T19:30:52Z Fare: what's the convention for error messages that include ~S for potentially long-ish objects? have a ~% and spaces before the ~S so it doesn't pretty-print as a big vertical mess at the end of the line?
2015-06-04T19:31:55Z emaczen: Actually, I found something show up, but I don't think I see it all the time.
2015-06-04T19:32:01Z emaczen: Regardless, I should be able to figure it out from here.
2015-06-04T19:33:04Z francogrex: emaczen: it may print when you exists the lisp process.... try it
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2015-06-04T19:34:42Z emaczen: francogrex: Yeah, I can see the output when I ,restart-inferior-lisp
2015-06-04T19:35:11Z pjb: francogrex: yes, but not recently.
2015-06-04T19:35:34Z francogrex: yes well that's the thing... use a termial to run lisp instead of emacs for these things...
2015-06-04T19:36:01Z emaczen: francogrex: It's good enough for now, I just wanted to verify that what I wrote in C does work from Lisp
2015-06-04T19:36:11Z emaczen: francogrex: Thanks!
2015-06-04T19:37:01Z francogrex: pjb: ok. It's a heavy thing... can it not be done borrowing the concept of linj that is now in open src?
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2015-06-04T19:46:10Z pjb: francogrex: probably.
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2015-06-04T20:00:35Z akkad: is there any lisp implementation of pgp?
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2015-06-04T20:03:03Z pjb: Now that facebook has it…
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2015-06-04T20:32:50Z dim: I'd like a pure CL implementation of SSL/TLS first, please? ;-)
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2015-06-04T20:43:43Z dlowe: I'd be afraid of sidechannel and timing attacks :/
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2015-06-04T20:44:07Z dlowe: pgp doesn't have that issue, thankfully
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2015-06-04T20:45:49Z dim: there's an ocaml implementation nowadays
2015-06-04T20:45:58Z dim: it could be a good source of inspiration / copy
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2015-06-04T20:49:16Z Xach: dim: of ssl/tls?
2015-06-04T20:49:33Z dennis_: is there a CL library for very simple terminal manipulation, that only provides features like clearing the screen, writing characters at points, and reading unbuffered input?
2015-06-04T20:50:06Z pjb: cl-charms
2015-06-04T20:50:19Z pjb: dennis_: also, you have this directly in clisp with the screen and keyboard packages.
2015-06-04T20:50:37Z dennis_: pjb: cl-charms is kinda finnicky and it doesnt hide the cursor
2015-06-04T20:50:45Z dennis_: but it is what I was going to fall back on anyway
2015-06-04T20:50:50Z dennis_: do you know how to hide the cursor?
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2015-06-04T20:52:42Z pjb: dennis_: try: (cl-charms/low-level:curs_set 0)
2015-06-04T20:52:48Z dennis_: thx
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2015-06-04T20:53:56Z pjb: dennis_: google for ncurse hide cursor, identify curs_set, grep sources of cl-charms for curs_set, see that it defines the cfun without using it anywhere, call it directly.
2015-06-04T20:54:19Z pjb: dennis_: + man curs_set  in the middle.
2015-06-04T20:54:46Z pjb: (in case you wondered how I knew that).
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2015-06-04T21:01:41Z dim: Xach: https://github.com/mirleft/ocaml-tls
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2015-06-04T21:03:35Z dennis_: pjb: it doesnt seem to work
2015-06-04T21:04:18Z dennis_: Symbol "CURS_SET" not found in the CL-CHARMS/LOW-LEVEL package.
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2015-06-04T21:04:36Z dennis_: the source seems to indicate that it is indeed there
2015-06-04T21:05:31Z dennis_: nvm
2015-06-04T21:05:35Z dennis_: it had to be curs-set
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2015-06-04T21:11:49Z fourier: dennis_: I use cl-ncurses, it is based on old FFI (not CFFI), but has more functions/constants from ncurses exposed than cl-charms
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2015-06-04T21:11:58Z dennis_: fourier: I tried that
2015-06-04T21:12:02Z dennis_: it didnt compile
2015-06-04T21:12:37Z fourier: really? I compiled my project successfully with both sbcl and lispworks without problems recently (on osx)
2015-06-04T21:12:46Z dennis_: Im on sbcl with linux
2015-06-04T21:12:54Z dennis_: and it complained about the .so being too short
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2015-06-04T21:13:52Z fourier: isn't it this problem ? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/17416504/unable-to-load-libncurses-with-uffi
2015-06-04T21:14:24Z dennis_: no
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2015-06-04T21:14:38Z dennis_: Error opening shared object "/lib64/libncurses.so":
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2015-06-04T21:14:42Z dennis_: /lib64/libncurses.so: file too short.
2015-06-04T21:14:48Z fourier: because as soon as I made the symlink I was able to use cl-ncurses without a problem on Debian Stable
2015-06-04T21:15:21Z fourier: wow, that is something I've never seen..
2015-06-04T21:15:36Z dennis_: also
2015-06-04T21:15:39Z dennis_: while im here
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2015-06-04T21:15:52Z dennis_: what is the most performant way to move an item to the front of a list?
2015-06-04T21:16:02Z pjb: dennis_: WFM http://paste.lisp.org/+374M
2015-06-04T21:16:18Z dennis_: ?
2015-06-04T21:16:30Z dennis_: yea
2015-06-04T21:16:34Z pjb: works for me.
2015-06-04T21:16:35Z dennis_: that works for me
2015-06-04T21:16:47Z dennis_: charms works
2015-06-04T21:16:51Z dennis_: I just dont really like it
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2015-06-04T21:16:59Z dennis_: but im abstracting the bits I dont like
2015-06-04T21:17:04Z dennis_: and now that the cursor works
2015-06-04T21:17:06Z dennis_: its all good
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2015-06-04T23:09:09Z dnm: Curse this small laptop screen.
2015-06-04T23:09:16Z dnm: (but only sometimes.)
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2015-06-05T01:52:48Z nyef: Bloody Linux. Just found out that ~/.profile isn't getting sourced when I start an X session or when I start a terminal window from X. /-:
2015-06-05T01:53:29Z nyef: (Debian wheezy, with backports, mate desktop.)
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2015-06-05T02:16:33Z nyef: Okay, putting the SBCL_HOME and PATH settings in ~/.bashrc instead of ~/.profile gets me a working system. Lovely. /-:
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2015-06-05T02:17:48Z pillton: If you build SBCL with the prefix option you shouldn't need the SBCL_HOME variable.
2015-06-05T02:18:15Z nyef: Yes, yes, but I'd still need PATH !
2015-06-05T02:18:50Z pillton: I just symlink one to the other for that.
2015-06-05T02:19:02Z nyef: ... wha?
2015-06-05T02:19:25Z pillton: ln -sf .bashrc .profile
2015-06-05T02:19:31Z nyef: Ah.
2015-06-05T02:19:37Z nyef: But they're already separate files.
2015-06-05T02:20:00Z pillton: Remove one first. :)
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2015-06-05T02:20:42Z nyef: Shouldn't have to.
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2015-06-05T02:24:09Z pjb: nyef: obvious, ~/.profile is a sh / bash rc file.  Would you expect X to source ~/.clisprc.lisp???
2015-06-05T02:24:48Z pillton: It also depends on how the shell starts. One is sourced upon SSH, another is source upon login.
2015-06-05T02:24:50Z nyef: Not obvious: ~/.profile includes provision for sourcing ~/.bashrc if it is run by bash, and it IS run if I use bash --login.
2015-06-05T02:25:11Z pjb: Yes. that's backward compatibility between bash and sh.
2015-06-05T02:25:27Z pjb: But again, X has nothing to do with sh and bash.
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2015-06-05T02:25:56Z pjb: Also you should not confuse environment variable inheriting with sourcing shell scripts.
2015-06-05T02:26:36Z nyef: Okay, so where is the one place I should be editing (and it should be ONE PLACE) to set my $PATH and any other environment variables?
2015-06-05T02:26:52Z nyef: For however I spawn a shell, or start an X session, or whatever.
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2015-06-05T02:39:27Z pjb: nyef: you would have to do like I do with my lisp rc files: load a common file from all the rc files of all the programs for which you want to set up a similar environment.  DUH.  This is basic programming.
2015-06-05T02:39:44Z nyef: Bloody nuisance.
2015-06-05T02:40:09Z nyef: One of the reasons I use a distro in the first place is to have the bullshit parts taken care of.
2015-06-05T02:40:46Z pjb: Hence the sourcing of .profile in .bash_profile and in .xsession
2015-06-05T02:41:10Z pjb: I fail to see how a distro can set up PERSONNAL USER CONFIGURATIONS!
2015-06-05T02:41:53Z nyef: It's not supposed to set up personal user configurations, it's supposed to provide ONE PLACE for users to set their configurations. And in this case, the obvious place Doesn't Work.
2015-06-05T02:42:10Z pjb: Again, different programs, different rc files.
2015-06-05T02:42:28Z pjb: There's no reason to want the same PATH to run shell commands and to double-click on icons.
2015-06-05T02:42:48Z Zhivago: Perhaps the idea of 'one place' is the problem.
2015-06-05T02:42:49Z nyef: Yes. Yes, there is.
2015-06-05T02:43:32Z pjb: I mean, as a power user, you may be able to set up a common path for all your environment, but you're supposed to know what you're doing and not shoot yourself in the foot.  A distro cannot do that for you.
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2015-06-05T02:45:39Z pjb: And in anycase, there are still variations of environment you will want depending on the program, so even if you set up a common file, you will still have to edit the program specific rc files.
2015-06-05T02:46:29Z pjb: eg. xset, xrdb, xmodmap is only run from .xsession, not from .profile or .bash_profile.
2015-06-05T02:48:52Z drmeister: What I started to do to set up my development environment is to set all my environment variables within a "makefile" and use "make dev-emacs" or "make dev-shell" with that makefile to start up a new shell or a new emacs session that has the environment set exactly how I want it.  It's portable.
2015-06-05T02:50:13Z nyef: That makes a certain amount of sense for a development environment, but I'm trying to get a basic sbcl environment available for my normal user account.
2015-06-05T02:50:19Z drmeister: Otherwise .bash_profile, .bashrc files turned into a mess of environment variables and I always had problems moving from one machine to another.
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2015-06-05T02:50:47Z nyef: I have problems moving from one machine to another anyway.
2015-06-05T02:51:07Z Zhivago: With virtual machines, you can just take it with you. :)
2015-06-05T02:51:27Z pillton: There are 5673 repositories on github called dot-files.
2015-06-05T02:51:46Z nyef: With virtual machines I get all the keyboard problems of moving from one machine to another without actually having to move from one machine to another.
2015-06-05T02:51:56Z Zhivago: You just need a virtual keyboard.
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2015-06-05T02:52:11Z pjb: right, displayed on the screen, and you click on it.
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2015-06-05T02:54:01Z Zhivago: I wonder if they sell keyboards with ip addresses yet.
2015-06-05T02:54:16Z pjb: Actually, yes.
2015-06-05T02:54:21Z nyef: They certainly sell keyboards with MAC addresses...
2015-06-05T02:54:27Z pjb: They sell a keyboard, with an android included.
2015-06-05T02:54:39Z Zhivago: Well, there you go. Get a wireless keyboard and have your virtual machine login to it.
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2015-06-05T02:57:11Z Zhivago: Then you can get a similar display and sticky-tape them together.
2015-06-05T02:57:22Z nyef: Not duct tape?
2015-06-05T02:57:59Z nyef: I mean, if you're going for the bodged-together aesthetic, you might as well go all the way.
2015-06-05T02:58:16Z pjb: Zhivago: http://www.cnx-software.com/2015/02/02/oneboard-pro-plus-android-keyboard/
2015-06-05T02:59:44Z nyef: ... How positively dreadful.
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2015-06-05T03:34:42Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-06-05T03:36:03Z pillton: G'day beach.
2015-06-05T03:37:24Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-06-05T03:38:04Z beach: Phase 2 of SICL CLOS bootstrapping using first-class global environments is now complete.  I now have a complete mirror of the MOP class hierarchy in the form of ordinary host standard objects.  YAY!
2015-06-05T03:38:28Z nyef: Congratulations.
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2015-06-05T03:39:53Z beach: Thanks.  I had to re-write large parts of SICL CLOS, because I made several adaptations so that I could bootstrap it when I didn't have first-class global environments.  These adaptations are no longer necessary, so I can have a code that looks more "natural".
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2015-06-05T03:47:00Z theos: nice
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2015-06-05T03:49:18Z beach: I also decided to temporarily forget about what the AMOP says about built-in classes so that I can write (defclass t () () (:metaclass built-in-class)) etc.
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2015-06-05T04:16:09Z theos: can SBCL transform tailrecursive functions into loops?
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2015-06-05T04:16:29Z Bike: yes, the exact conditions are in the manual i believe
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2015-06-05T04:18:07Z theos: ok thanks
2015-06-05T04:18:14Z smokeink: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149148 any idea anyone? i'm stuck
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2015-06-05T05:42:02Z spacebat`: I've got a bunch of cases where print-unreadable-object is used for printing things, including conditions, and code which is called within with-standard-io-syntax that may error with these conditions, and handler-bind lambdas that may try to print these objects :)
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2015-06-05T05:43:21Z spacebat`: because w-s-i-s sets *print-readably* to t, I sometimes run into a print-not-readable error
2015-06-05T05:43:35Z spacebat`: that obscures the underlying error and makes for a bad day
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2015-06-05T05:46:04Z spacebat`: I could make an alternative, call it with-unreadable-io-syntax that binds *print-readably* to nil, and use that substitute but that could have a lot of knock-on effects to track down
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2015-06-05T05:47:26Z spacebat`: or I could make an alternative to print-unreadable-object that lets me configure whether or how much it cares about *print-readably*
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2015-06-05T05:50:42Z pjb: Or you could just bind *print-readably* to nil.
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2015-06-05T05:55:22Z pjb: (with-output-to-string (out) (with-standard-io-syntax (let ((*print-readably* nil)) (print-unreadable-object (42 out :type t))))) --> "#<(INTEGER 0 1152921504606846975)>" ;-)
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2015-06-05T05:56:06Z spacebat`: yes, the problem is that print-readably has effects on a bunch of other print control variables
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2015-06-05T05:57:19Z spacebat`: hence the "lot of knock-on effects" I fear
2015-06-05T05:58:49Z spacebat`: I think I'll define a variant of print-unreadable-object
2015-06-05T06:00:33Z spacebat`: print-unreadable-object-for-sure-matey
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2015-06-05T06:01:50Z spacebat`: thanks for your suggestion pjb
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2015-06-05T06:04:58Z spacebat`: what implementation are you using pjb? I get #<FIXNUM 150> on LW6.1
2015-06-05T06:05:30Z spacebat`: that is, with :identity t also
2015-06-05T06:05:40Z pjb: ccl
2015-06-05T06:06:07Z spacebat`: ok, I haven't used it much
2015-06-05T06:06:59Z pjb: print-unreadable-object output is implementation dependant.
2015-06-05T06:07:15Z spacebat`: yup, just idle interest
2015-06-05T06:07:55Z pjb: Some implementation have fixnum has a built-in class.
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2015-06-05T06:34:25Z mrkkrp: Hi, I'm playing with Travis CI trying to build there one CL project. To build it I first need to install Buildapp, but I'm getting rather strange error message saying that «Symbol "EXIT" not found in the SB-EXT package». Here is the log: https://travis-ci.org/mrkkrp/shtookovina#L186 . Any ideas why this may happen?
2015-06-05T06:34:49Z Quadrescence: change EXIT to QUIT
2015-06-05T06:35:01Z Quadrescence: EXIT was killed off some time ago I think
2015-06-05T06:35:34Z mrkkrp: If it's the case, Xach should change it in Buildapp.
2015-06-05T06:36:15Z Quadrescence: not a false fact
2015-06-05T06:37:01Z H4ns: QUIT was killed, EXIT is new
2015-06-05T06:37:18Z H4ns: mrkkrp: you're probably running a rather old sbcl version
2015-06-05T06:37:20Z Quadrescence: oh oops
2015-06-05T06:37:21Z Quadrescence: my bad
2015-06-05T06:37:22Z mrkkrp: It's strange because it works on my machine where I have all the latest releases.
2015-06-05T06:37:32Z Quadrescence: H4ns is right
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2015-06-05T06:38:22Z pillton: I need to read that thread again about QUIT and EXIT. It got very long.
2015-06-05T06:38:24Z mrkkrp: Hmm, what to do? Should I build SBCL there too?
2015-06-05T06:38:35Z H4ns: mrkkrp: yes.  or use QUIT
2015-06-05T06:38:48Z H4ns: mrkkrp: it was not "killed", only deprecated
2015-06-05T06:40:05Z mrkkrp: Don't want to use deprecated stuff :)
2015-06-05T06:40:31Z H4ns: then install a fresher sbcl in your travis instance
2015-06-05T06:40:50Z mrkkrp: Right, I'll do it.
2015-06-05T06:41:11Z mrkkrp: Maybe someone has already written some .travis.yml that builds SBCL along the way?
2015-06-05T06:41:48Z mrkkrp: Although it's pretty easy to write, I'm sure.
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2015-06-05T06:45:26Z kami: Good morning #lisp.
2015-06-05T06:45:55Z pillton: G'day kami.
2015-06-05T06:46:11Z Quadrescence: Who's gonna make the portable UTF-8 *TERMINAL-IO*? :)
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2015-06-05T06:47:47Z pillton: The first person to transition from apathy to emotional.
2015-06-05T06:48:04Z Quadrescence: (:
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2015-06-05T07:24:39Z average: does anyone find something like this useful ? https://asciinema.org/a/e3dfurhxeltaqp45xhgjo8oe7
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2015-06-05T07:32:56Z loz1: average: you mean ascii video or github issues in emacs?
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2015-06-05T08:26:39Z mood: mrkkrp: You can use cl-travis (https://github.com/luismbo/cl-travis)
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2015-06-05T08:50:32Z loz1: mrkkrp: i have working example here https://github.com/maximvl/lbot/blob/master/.travis.yml
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2015-06-05T08:53:17Z mood: On that note, does someone know why clisp and ecl using cl-travis complain about interning into the COMMON-LISP package? I checked a while ago, but couldn't find a reason for *package* to not be CL-USER
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2015-06-05T08:54:56Z loz1: mood: i guess i saw this problem, let me check how i fixed it
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2015-06-05T08:56:35Z loz1: mood: i just removed them from testing environment =)
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2015-06-05T09:01:46Z mood: loz1: That kind of breaks the testing setup though. On error it'll go into the debugger and wait until travis times out
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2015-06-05T09:02:56Z loz1: mood: you always can add handler-case for tests
2015-06-05T09:03:13Z loz1: to prevent running the debugger
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2015-06-05T09:09:32Z lieven: what symbols are you messing with? ANSI doesn't forbid adding symbols to CL, let alone CL-USER.
2015-06-05T09:10:38Z mood: lieven: (intern "c" :common-lisp) -> "Lock on package COMMON-LISP violated when interning c while in package"
2015-06-05T09:10:49Z loz1: >INTERN("CXML-XMLS"): #<PACKAGE COMMON-LISP> is locked
2015-06-05T09:10:51Z loz1: same here
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2015-06-05T09:11:33Z lieven: I think that's non comforming
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2015-06-05T09:14:35Z mood: lieven: SBCL, CLISP, ECL all do it. CCL doesn't complain
2015-06-05T09:16:06Z mood: SBCL points to clhs 11.1.2.1.2, but I can't quickly figure out how that forbids interning new symbols
2015-06-05T09:16:10Z lieven: typically there's a WITHOUT-PACKAGE-LOCK primitive or similar
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2015-06-05T09:20:20Z p_l: I wonder, has anyone tried to get some clarification whether Symbolics software could be put online for non-commercial purposes (and archiving)?
2015-06-05T09:21:08Z lieven: especially since 11.1.2.1.2.1 give you much leeway for symbols you've put in CL yourself
2015-06-05T09:21:45Z mood: I fixed the problem for now by explicitly specifying cl-user::c
2015-06-05T09:22:32Z loz1: there is a lot of dynamic interning in cxml =(
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2015-06-05T10:14:40Z mrkkrp: mood, loz1: thanks!
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2015-06-05T11:57:53Z loz1: how can i refresh package definition in image after i changed it in a file?
2015-06-05T11:58:10Z Shinmera: ? Recompile the form?
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2015-06-05T11:59:42Z Xach: loz1: re-evaluate it in some way. compile & load, load, or evaluate it.
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2015-06-05T12:00:17Z loz1: Xach Shinmera i did, i removed :use statement, but package still has symbols in it
2015-06-05T12:00:38Z Shinmera: clhs unuse-package
2015-06-05T12:00:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_unuse_.htm
2015-06-05T12:00:44Z Shinmera: also look at
2015-06-05T12:00:45Z Shinmera: clhs defpackage
2015-06-05T12:00:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm
2015-06-05T12:01:16Z Shinmera: "If the new definition is at variance with the current state of that package, the consequences are undefined; an implementation might choose to modify the existing package to reflect the new definition"
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2015-06-05T12:03:32Z loz1: delete-package did it, thanks)
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2015-06-05T12:04:16Z Xach: Shinmera: how does qt-libs fetch its stuff?
2015-06-05T12:04:41Z Shinmera: Xach: by default it downloads an archive from the KDE servers using drakma.
2015-06-05T12:05:00Z Shinmera: I still have to add checksumming for that, since the KDE servers don't work with HTTPS for some reason.
2015-06-05T12:06:36Z loz1: why (functionp #'defun) is t ?
2015-06-05T12:07:16Z Shinmera: because #' returns a function object?
2015-06-05T12:07:27Z loz1: then how can i distinct macro symbols from function symbols?
2015-06-05T12:07:44Z Shinmera: clhs macro-function
2015-06-05T12:07:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_macro_.htm
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2015-06-05T12:31:07Z loz1: how can i make dynamically interned symbol internal or external?
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2015-06-05T12:32:46Z Zhivago: By exporting it?
2015-06-05T12:33:59Z loz1: looks ok, thanks
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2015-06-05T12:41:26Z Xach: eudoxia: hello! something is hanging for me when building swank-protocol. it hangs in tests.
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2015-06-05T12:41:43Z eudoxia: Xach: literally just saw your comment this instant
2015-06-05T12:42:13Z Xach: eudoxia: i am attacking on all fronts
2015-06-05T12:43:02Z eudoxia: Xach: how do i check the slime version again
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2015-06-05T12:44:16Z Xach: eudoxia: I don't know, sorry.
2015-06-05T12:44:28Z Xach: eudoxia: luis might know?
2015-06-05T12:44:54Z eudoxia: hm
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2015-06-05T12:48:07Z Xach: hmm indeed, i can't reproduce outside of my ql build system
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2015-06-05T12:49:39Z eudoxia: Xach: oh, if that's the case, here's what's probably the problem
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2015-06-05T12:49:56Z eudoxia: swank-protocol and lime use lisp-invocation to start a Lisp process for running the Swank server
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2015-06-05T12:53:09Z Xach: ok?
2015-06-05T12:54:33Z Xach: I don't understand. Why is that a problem?
2015-06-05T12:55:25Z eudoxia: the process that's started loads :swank-protocol using quicklisp, probably from outside your ql build env
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2015-06-05T12:55:37Z eudoxia: or inside idk it's probably trying to find it from somewhere where it can't
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2015-06-05T12:57:17Z Xach: how does it choose what lisp program to start?
2015-06-05T12:57:46Z Xach: Can you suggest a workaround? My environment is pure asdf, no quicklisp.
2015-06-05T12:58:34Z eudoxia: i think what i'll do is get rid of lisp-invocation for testing and just start a separate thread, though maybe i had a reason to not do that
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2015-06-05T12:59:00Z eudoxia: alternative replace (ql:quickload :swank-protocol) in the testing code with (asdf:load-system :swank-protocol)
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2015-06-05T12:59:51Z Xach: I guess I would have expected an error, not a hang
2015-06-05T13:00:07Z Xach: Maybe the sub-lisp is hung in the debugger or something?
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2015-06-05T13:00:35Z eudoxia: that is possible
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2015-06-05T13:01:51Z Xach: Is this something you're likely to fiddle with today?
2015-06-05T13:02:00Z Xach: I am working on a release for this weekend
2015-06-05T13:03:16Z eudoxia: if that is the case i'll put it first on my todo, so i'll likely have it fixed before saturday
2015-06-05T13:03:23Z eudoxia: that is, today
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2015-06-05T13:06:52Z Xach: i can also blacklist the tests for now
2015-06-05T13:08:06Z eudoxia: if i can't fix it yeah maybe that'll be necessary
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2015-06-05T13:08:15Z Shinmera: eudoxia: By the way, I finally got around to setting up travis for Qtools.
2015-06-05T13:08:48Z eudoxia: Shinmera: how are you enjoying it
2015-06-05T13:09:15Z Shinmera: eudoxia: 's aight. Wish it natively supported CL.
2015-06-05T13:09:27Z eudoxia shrugs
2015-06-05T13:09:31Z eudoxia: cl-travis works well enough
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2015-06-05T13:09:52Z eudoxia: if we get enough libraries there with language: common-lisp maybe by force of numbers they'll support it c;
2015-06-05T13:10:04Z Shinmera: Also: Wish that mac testing was available to me, so I could properly test qt-libs on that platform.
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2015-06-05T13:10:49Z eudoxia: hm, they closed requests for OS X testing
2015-06-05T13:11:04Z Shinmera: Xach: I added checksum testing to qt-libs, so it should be at least a bit safe in regards to the source it downloads.
2015-06-05T13:11:11Z Shinmera: eudoxia: yeah.
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2015-06-05T13:14:23Z Shinmera thinks his next money waste is going to be on buying a Mac system so he can at least test all his garbage.
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2015-06-05T13:15:37Z oleo: hello
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2015-06-05T14:06:01Z theos: hi
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2015-06-05T14:41:54Z failproofshark: hello
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2015-06-05T15:25:22Z kami: Good afternoon.
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2015-06-05T15:34:01Z k-stz: I showed lisp to a friend today. As I showed that you can inspect the elements of an ASSERT that signals error he wonderer if that would be inefficient. Because the debugger "was running" and if there was a way to dissable it.
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2015-06-05T15:34:26Z k-stz: I gave him a "not sure" and a "probably declarations" answer…
2015-06-05T15:34:46Z dlowe: If you hit an assertion, efficiency shouldn't be foremost on your mind
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2015-06-05T15:35:18Z Bike: but if it is anyway for some reason, http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Enabling-and-Disabling-the-Debugger
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2015-06-05T15:35:27Z Bike: similar in other implementations, prolly
2015-06-05T15:35:53Z H4ns: disabling the debugger is unlikely to have a performance effect, though.
2015-06-05T15:36:00Z dlowe: Most lisp implementations sacrifice space for speed. Big cross-reference tables that get built during compilation but don't affect execution speed
2015-06-05T15:36:31Z H4ns: k-stz: next time you get into that discussion, it would make sense if you asked what specific concerns the person has.
2015-06-05T15:36:33Z dlowe: well, I say most. Some. The ones I typically use :D
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2015-06-05T15:37:02Z H4ns: k-stz: it seems to me that assuming that the presence of a debugger would have a negative performance impact is somewhat uninformed.
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2015-06-05T15:37:49Z dlowe: I presumed he was referring to the inspectability of it all
2015-06-05T15:37:52Z k-stz: Bike: thanks there. H4ns it seems that it really is just a non-issue, you dissable the debugger when you have to ship.
2015-06-05T15:38:06Z fe[nl]ix: maybe he was thinking of a ptrace() process-level debugger
2015-06-05T15:38:28Z fe[nl]ix: that does have a monitoring overhead
2015-06-05T15:38:39Z H4ns: or maybe he was thinking that debugging symbols would only be present when optimization is switched off, like early c compilers did
2015-06-05T15:39:07Z dlowe: From reddit: So, I'm faced (again) with the paradox of choice when using CL -- I'm trying to decide which set of libraries and frameworks to use to build a database-driven web application. The sheer number of choices for: 1) web server, 2) webapp framework, 3) HTML templating, 4) JSON mapping, 5) database access... are pretty overwhelming.
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2015-06-05T15:39:17Z dlowe: That's.... something I've never heard before
2015-06-05T15:39:27Z pjb: k-stz: the debugger "was NOT running"!  How silly a conception!  Functions don't "run" just for being present in the program.  They're only executed when called!
2015-06-05T15:39:33Z dlowe: "OMG! Common Lisp has too many libraries!"
2015-06-05T15:39:47Z pjb: k-stz: somehow, I doubt this friend had actors in mind…
2015-06-05T15:39:57Z jasom: all of the json libraries are a pain
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2015-06-05T15:40:27Z jasom: but part of it is just the fact that the naive mapping between JSON and s-expr is very much not reversible
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2015-06-05T15:41:05Z H4ns: json is a pain in that it suggests that a mapping between host language data structures and json would be trivial, where that is only the case for javascript.
2015-06-05T15:41:05Z jasom: If you use alists or plists for objects then, null, false, empty-array, and empty object all map to nil
2015-06-05T15:41:47Z jasom: H4ns: several other languages are fairly trivial as well (e.g. python which has None, false and empty-list as separate types, and a canonical associative type (dicts))
2015-06-05T15:42:13Z H4ns: jasom: right.  it goes from trivial (javascript) to rather painful (c)
2015-06-05T15:42:27Z H4ns: jasom: with cl being more on the rather painful side
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2015-06-05T15:43:07Z jasom: If you map JS arrays to lisp arrays, and JS objects to hash-tables then you end up only with the null/false ambiguity, but I've yet to see a library that does that by default
2015-06-05T15:43:09Z pjb: Define types: json-object json-string json-number json-array and convert JSON only to/from those types.
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2015-06-05T15:44:54Z H4ns: jasom: you mean like yason does it, if so instructed?  (http://hanshuebner.github.io/yason/#mapping)
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2015-06-05T15:45:09Z jasom: H4ns: I sayd "by default"
2015-06-05T15:45:25Z H4ns: ah, i missed that bit.
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2015-06-05T15:45:50Z H4ns: i think i'd not want that by default, because both vectors and hash tables are not my preferred data structures when writing CL code.
2015-06-05T15:46:12Z H4ns: well, i don't "think" that, i know that and that is why yason's defaults are differen :D
2015-06-05T15:46:19Z jasom: H4ns: well I would like a mapping by default that can survive a round-trip
2015-06-05T15:46:42Z jasom: I would have a special symbol for null and use nil for false
2015-06-05T15:46:48Z H4ns: mmmhhh
2015-06-05T15:46:56Z jasom: (under the theory that false is more common than null)
2015-06-05T15:47:23Z H4ns: that is how you sacrifice sanity in your programs to appease the deficiencies of an external data format that you're using :)
2015-06-05T15:47:47Z jasom: by default survive round-trip you either need something ugly like I suggest, or define a whole set of objects that are not built-in to lisp like pjb suggests
2015-06-05T15:48:28Z oGMo: jasom: conspack? heh
2015-06-05T15:48:38Z oGMo: or do you need json
2015-06-05T15:49:34Z jasom: H4ns: what I have actually done in the past was to use cl-json which allows customization of decoding of aggregate types, and imposed a schema on my data, so it can treat nil, null and empty-list correctly
2015-06-05T15:49:45Z fe[nl]ix puts his QA hat on
2015-06-05T15:49:49Z fe[nl]ix: having a bijective mapping is *the* most important thing with serialization
2015-06-05T15:50:00Z oGMo: json is quick and dirty but given the limitations, often _far_ too dirty ;/
2015-06-05T15:50:09Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: and out-of-the-box no JSON library for lisp provides one
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2015-06-05T15:51:20Z fe[nl]ix: doing QA for a CL startup made me end up looking into Ada & Coq
2015-06-05T15:51:30Z fe[nl]ix: feel free to laugh
2015-06-05T15:51:34Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: no ATS?
2015-06-05T15:51:42Z fe[nl]ix: too buggy
2015-06-05T15:51:57Z fe[nl]ix: otherwise, it's very nice
2015-06-05T15:52:17Z average: so yesterday I was reading some stuff
2015-06-05T15:52:31Z average: people are saying elisp doesn't have a proper OO system
2015-06-05T15:52:44Z average: and that EIEIO is not that good
2015-06-05T15:52:54Z Bike: this channel is common lisp, not elisp
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2015-06-05T15:57:10Z average: Bike: oh I didn't know that
2015-06-05T15:57:11Z average: gee
2015-06-05T15:57:18Z average: thanks Bike , that was very useful
2015-06-05T15:57:31Z average: you are a true friend of the squirrels, puppies and penguins
2015-06-05T15:57:42Z Bike: okay, so if you did know that, why are you asking about elisp here?
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2015-06-05T15:58:02Z Bike: also, please treat me like a human being and not a wall to make sarcastic jokes at, i would appreciate it
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2015-06-05T15:58:30Z H4ns: Bike: but you need to read, there was no sarcasm involved i'd say
2015-06-05T15:58:53Z Bike: i am pretty friendly with dogs, it's true.
2015-06-05T15:59:36Z H4ns: BUT SCREW THEM FRIGGIN SQUIRRELS!
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2015-06-05T16:00:42Z k-stz: concerning the debugger: my friend, I just asked him again, was just surprised about lisp having a build-in debugger. As the concern boiled down to it using more space.
2015-06-05T16:01:01Z k-stz: and man am I bad at explaining macros
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2015-06-05T16:02:30Z k-stz: though 'D' has macros too i've been told, so there might be a popular lang to compare it too. Probably weaker considering D's syntax
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2015-06-05T16:03:17Z oGMo: "macros are code that writes other code"
2015-06-05T16:03:29Z Bike: a macro function is a regular lisp function; the thing that makes it a "macro" is that the compiler/evaluator/etc processors are set up to call the macro function on certain forms, and process the result instead of the original form.
2015-06-05T16:03:32Z oGMo: doesn't really explain the _implications_, but
2015-06-05T16:04:18Z k-stz: oGMo: I went with that and also "syntax abstraction", my personal favorite
2015-06-05T16:05:12Z oGMo: k-stz: i think the hardest part is on the understanding end. showing some code might help, but harder if the person doesn't know lisp already
2015-06-05T16:05:54Z k-stz: oGMo: i showed some very simple stuff. But thinking back about my own struggle I was always thinking "yeah, well I can write this with a couple function calls, why bother"
2015-06-05T16:06:29Z average: Bike: sometimes I sleep on my hand and when I wake up, it feels very numb
2015-06-05T16:06:43Z oGMo: k-stz: another possibly easy one is demonstrating implementing flow control
2015-06-05T16:06:46Z average: at times I've even gotten scared that my arm was completely numb
2015-06-05T16:06:56Z average: well, good thing I have 2 hands
2015-06-05T16:07:08Z average: but, it's a bit frightening
2015-06-05T16:07:36Z Bike: Look, can I help you or are you going to keep being oblique.
2015-06-05T16:07:43Z oGMo: while you _can_ do that with functions/lambdas, the point is nicer syntax
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2015-06-05T16:08:53Z average: Bike: you could give me a beer for attending this IRC congregation
2015-06-05T16:09:25Z oGMo: Bike: turing test failure
2015-06-05T16:09:38Z Bike: yeah /ignore, oh well
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2015-06-05T16:10:05Z average: some people take things very serious, like IRC is super-serious nowadays
2015-06-05T16:10:06Z jasom: k-stz: I find that I don't want to write macros that often, but when I do, they are really nice.
2015-06-05T16:10:12Z k-stz: oGMo: with flow control you mean some macro that controlls order of evaluation? To build a DOLIST etc?
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2015-06-05T16:10:48Z jasom: k-stz: also things that would have to be new syntax in other languages can be libraries in lisp (e.g. iterate)
2015-06-05T16:10:49Z oGMo: k-stz: implementing stuff like IF, WHILE, etc
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2015-06-05T16:12:03Z k-stz: oGMo: gotcha. jasom: like the argument "java needed a year for the comittee to aprove of the 'foreach' syntax to be included, while lispers hack a macro together in their coffee break"
2015-06-05T16:12:26Z jasom: k-stz: right.  I use Python and "with" as an example too
2015-06-05T16:12:35Z average: k-stz: any $-heavy project in Lisp ?
2015-06-05T16:12:40Z average: because there are plenty of those in Java
2015-06-05T16:13:02Z oGMo: and the side benefit that new syntaxes aren't compulsory
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2015-06-05T16:13:12Z k-stz: average: you mean popular software that made millions of dollars?
2015-06-05T16:13:13Z dlowe: $-heavy?  dollars or perl syntax?
2015-06-05T16:13:36Z jasom: average: no, lisp projects always finish under-budget :P
2015-06-05T16:13:45Z jasom ducks
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2015-06-05T16:14:07Z k-stz: average: ITA stuff autoCAD and that game developer naughty dog, and "mirrai" i think
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2015-06-05T16:14:31Z k-stz: pg's viaweb
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2015-06-05T16:14:59Z dlowe: ITA stuff known as Google Flights these days
2015-06-05T16:15:02Z k-stz: jasom: :b
2015-06-05T16:15:05Z average: https://www.artima.com/underthehood/gc.html
2015-06-05T16:15:17Z average: When programming in non-garbage-collected languages the programmer can spend many late hours (or days or weeks) chasing down an elusive memory problem
2015-06-05T16:15:27Z average: When programming in Java the programmer can use that time more advantageously by getting ahead of schedule or simply going home to have a life.
2015-06-05T16:15:32Z average: <end-of-quote>
2015-06-05T16:15:48Z dlowe: when programming in garbage-collected languages, the programmer can spend many late hours (or days or weeks) chasing down an elusive memory leak
2015-06-05T16:15:55Z average: also see this picture of Perl programmers https://spiceperl.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/use_strict.jpg?w=498&h=595
2015-06-05T16:15:57Z oGMo: i still contend this is a bot
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2015-06-05T16:16:14Z dlowe: pretty cool bot, if so
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2015-06-05T16:16:38Z k-stz: woe is me then
2015-06-05T16:16:39Z fe[nl]ix: we had some data we wanted to store into a JSON column in Postgres, and all three of st-json, cl-json & com.gigamonkeys.json generated incorrect JSON in some corner cases
2015-06-05T16:16:51Z oGMo: i dunno, randomly linking off-topic stuff and making random statements.. i've seen better
2015-06-05T16:17:16Z average: k-stz: yes, popular software that makes millions of dollars
2015-06-05T16:17:23Z average: k-stz: or just widely used software packages
2015-06-05T16:17:34Z average: dlowe: no, not Perl syntax
2015-06-05T16:17:39Z fe[nl]ix: one was(is?) doing some pretty-printing and output a #\Newline between key and value in a json object
2015-06-05T16:17:59Z average: oGMo: you're my friend forever, here is a stack of parenthesis for you
2015-06-05T16:18:18Z average: ((((..))))
2015-06-05T16:18:30Z dlowe: fe[nl]ix: I hope you did your duty and filed bugs before abandoning them
2015-06-05T16:18:52Z fe[nl]ix: I did not
2015-06-05T16:19:07Z dlowe: (newlines between key and value is a syntax error? wot?)
2015-06-05T16:19:30Z fe[nl]ix: Postgres implements the RFC faithfully
2015-06-05T16:19:50Z fe[nl]ix: not of the "be liberal in what you accept" persuasion
2015-06-05T16:19:51Z oGMo: dlowe: yeah also no comments or trailing commas.. it's pretty annoying
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2015-06-05T16:22:05Z fe[nl]ix: JSON is a strict subset of Javascript syntax, at least according to RFCs 4627/7159
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2015-06-05T16:25:30Z pjb: average: I see no parentheses there, only cons cells.
2015-06-05T16:25:53Z average: pjb: yes but you haven't looked closely
2015-06-05T16:26:20Z jasom got a read error on the ..
2015-06-05T16:26:56Z average: i should buy a lisp machine
2015-06-05T16:27:56Z xj54y: Why buy a lisp machine when you may emulate a lisp machine freely? >_>
2015-06-05T16:28:27Z ronh-: xj54y you can't make sweet love to a lisp machine emulator
2015-06-05T16:28:42Z xj54y: ronh-, why not?
2015-06-05T16:28:53Z ronh-: it doesn't exist in the physical world
2015-06-05T16:29:00Z p_l: xj54y: also, there's rather... lack of fully-capable lisp machine emulators
2015-06-05T16:29:15Z xj54y: oh you guys... :\
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2015-06-05T16:31:38Z average: ronh-: Paul McCarthy died of heart failure
2015-06-05T16:31:44Z average: ronh-: because he didn't receive enough love
2015-06-05T16:32:00Z average: ronh-: so.. I don't think you an make love to a lisp machine
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2015-06-05T16:32:20Z average: btw, I'm not claiming what I wrote makes sense necessarily
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2015-06-05T16:33:35Z xj54y: average, he didn't love himself enough? :-(
2015-06-05T16:34:18Z xj54y: I wonder, am I going to die from a lack of love too? ;_;
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2015-06-05T16:49:18Z average: xj54y: maybe you will, who knows
2015-06-05T16:49:25Z average: but one thing's for sure, you will die
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2015-06-05T16:49:41Z average: eventually
2015-06-05T16:50:18Z nyef: "Immortality: A fate worse than death."
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2015-06-05T16:53:49Z average: nyef: http://imgur.com/gallery/gM5uv
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2015-06-05T16:53:56Z average: xj54y: ^^
2015-06-05T16:54:08Z average: have some soup so you can mend your worries
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2015-06-05T17:04:27Z k-stz: Bike: I like your macro explanation. Because it explains in with concepts that are already known. This is a good way to sucker somebody in that is already mesmerized. Now to just build a bridge to practical applications
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2015-06-05T17:51:30Z drmeister: In Clasp, my SYMBOL's have an "isSpecial" field (bool) associated with them.  I was thinking of implementing a CORE:SPECIALP function to test if a symbol is special in the top level environment.  Is that a bad idea?
2015-06-05T17:52:18Z drmeister: I ask because Common Lisp doesn't have a predicate like that and it seems useful - that usually means I don't understand something.
2015-06-05T17:52:41Z drmeister 's lispy sense is tingling.
2015-06-05T17:53:44Z frankS2: Anyone have any sources to recommend for "learning common lisp for non programmers"? I have done a small amount in python/ruby/c etc. but nothing big, and my knowledge is limited
2015-06-05T17:54:02Z remi`bd: what’s a special symbol for you? a dynamic binding? a special form?
2015-06-05T17:54:12Z drmeister: frankS2 "Land of Lisp"
2015-06-05T17:54:24Z sjl: frankS2: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ is a good one that starts off with pencil and paper instead of diving right into code
2015-06-05T17:55:02Z frankS2: drmeister: sjl: Thanks :)
2015-06-05T17:55:07Z drmeister: remi`bd: A defparameter or defvar
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2015-06-05T17:56:35Z drmeister: You raise a good point - I'm contemplating using this with Cleavir (a new compiler I'm incorporating) I better check if this is supposed to test if something is declared special locally as well.
2015-06-05T17:57:07Z drmeister: Nope, just global.
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2015-06-05T18:27:44Z digiorgi: when you have functions in a package that are private, you have any special convention to refer them like, private_funx?
2015-06-05T18:28:07Z digiorgi: private = unexported
2015-06-05T18:28:11Z Shinmera: Just don't export them.
2015-06-05T18:28:28Z Shinmera: Why do you need more than that?
2015-06-05T18:29:08Z oleo: you can always use the package::    prefix
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2015-06-05T18:30:09Z oleo: package::func1 package::func2
2015-06-05T18:30:37Z Shinmera: so?
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2015-06-05T18:30:48Z oleo: what about macros ?
2015-06-05T18:31:04Z Shinmera: ...what about them?
2015-06-05T18:31:40Z oleo: they are package local too not ?
2015-06-05T18:31:59Z Shinmera: Yeah, so? What does that have to do with anything?
2015-06-05T18:32:15Z oleo: nothing
2015-06-05T18:32:23Z Shinmera is completely lost
2015-06-05T18:32:24Z oleo: i was asking, it was my turn
2015-06-05T18:32:37Z oleo: independent of digiorgi....
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2015-06-05T18:35:23Z Shinmera: digiorgi: I'm confused: Are you asking how to make sure that people /cannot/ use functions, or are you asking how to use functions that aren't exported?
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2015-06-05T18:37:39Z digiorgi: for know in my code without having to go to function definitions if my functions are exported or not
2015-06-05T18:37:46Z digiorgi: it doesn't matters
2015-06-05T18:38:13Z digiorgi: in some moment i started to use private_x but was very verbose
2015-06-05T18:38:23Z digiorgi: now just simply  i put other name
2015-06-05T18:38:36Z digiorgi: function defintions = package definition
2015-06-05T18:38:37Z digiorgi: xddd
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2015-06-05T18:42:35Z jasom: digiorgi: Just don't export them from your package.  Alternatively, some people will prefix with a % for something like "This function doesn't do what you think it does"
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2015-06-05T18:53:35Z caoliver: My google-fu is weak, and I am stupid.  Is there a way of getting make.sh to take advantage of multiple CPUs when building sbcl.core, or is this necessarily a single thread task due to dependencies during the build?
2015-06-05T18:53:59Z caoliver would like to speed up core builds if possible.
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2015-06-05T18:59:58Z nyef: caoliver: The SBCL build process is single-threaded. It would be a lot of work to allow it to take any advantage of multiple cores like that.
2015-06-05T19:00:14Z akkad: just use faster machine
2015-06-05T19:00:17Z nyef: caoliver: And that's even before assessing for any dependencies of the sort that you're worried about.
2015-06-05T19:00:22Z caoliver was afraid of that.
2015-06-05T19:01:10Z caoliver: Faster machine == more dinero.
2015-06-05T19:01:48Z nyef: And here I'm thinking "and WHERE precisely do you expect me to find a faster machine in these architectures?"
2015-06-05T19:02:13Z caoliver is NOT planning to run SBCL on a ras-pi
2015-06-05T19:02:25Z caoliver: I'm not that much a fan of pain.
2015-06-05T19:02:30Z jasom wonders at what the peak single-threaded performance per dollar over the past decade has been
2015-06-05T19:02:31Z nyef: Hah!
2015-06-05T19:02:57Z jasom: I suspect it's rate of improvement has greatly slowed
2015-06-05T19:03:02Z jasom: s/it's/its
2015-06-05T19:03:03Z caoliver: Well, I remember back when CMUCL took about half an hour to build.
2015-06-05T19:03:22Z caoliver: That was on a P133 with 64MB main mem.
2015-06-05T19:03:30Z nyef: I still budget half an hour to the build on SBCL for some systems. More in some cases.
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2015-06-05T19:04:02Z caoliver:  Failure:            run-program.impure.lisp / RUN-PROGRAM-CAT-3
2015-06-05T19:04:09Z caoliver:  Invalid exit status: run-program.test.sh
2015-06-05T19:04:14Z caoliver:  Invalid exit status: side-effectful-pathnames.test.sh
2015-06-05T19:04:18Z caoliver: Grrrr....
2015-06-05T19:04:20Z nyef: Nice.
2015-06-05T19:04:28Z nyef: Which platform, which SBCL version?
2015-06-05T19:04:34Z caoliver: That should be telling me something about my config.
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2015-06-05T19:04:38Z caoliver: 1.2.12
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2015-06-05T19:05:13Z caoliver: I get a feeling of data vu about that message.  I've seen this, but I can't remember the cause.
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2015-06-05T19:05:33Z nyef: Those are new to me, I'm afraid.
2015-06-05T19:05:35Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: IBM labs overclocked POWER7 cores to 80GHz
2015-06-05T19:05:58Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: IBM has only very rarely had peak performance-per-dollar; just peak performance per-chip.
2015-06-05T19:06:08Z fe[nl]ix: ... at 2°K
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2015-06-05T19:06:29Z H4ns: 2K
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2015-06-05T19:06:51Z jasom: yields from IBMs POWER fabs are historically low compared to Intel
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2015-06-05T19:09:44Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: just cool down the CPU and overclock it
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2015-06-05T19:10:42Z rpg: If a lisp file is missing an IN-PACKAGE form, does it always default to COMMON-LISP-USER, or *PACKAGE*, or is this implementation-dependent? [getting a little lost in the hyperspec]
2015-06-05T19:11:19Z eudoxia: i think that's decided by asdf
2015-06-05T19:11:40Z nyef: It defaults to whatever the value of *PACKAGE* is at the time of COMPILE-FILE or LOAD.
2015-06-05T19:11:41Z jasom: rpg: it defaults to *package*
2015-06-05T19:11:55Z fe[nl]ix: it's implementation-dependent
2015-06-05T19:12:07Z jasom: rpg: but laod and compile-file will bind the value around the processing of the file
2015-06-05T19:12:22Z skrue: so i have a tree (a list of lists) as a global variable, *tree*. I want to write a function that modifies it in-place. Is there an idiom for this?
2015-06-05T19:12:24Z jasom: from hyperspec: "load binds *readtable* and *package* to the values they held before loading the file."
2015-06-05T19:12:28Z rpg: jasom: right, but they do this just to avoid setting it leaking out...
2015-06-05T19:12:46Z rpg: So it's like (let ((*package* *package*)) ... do the loading...)
2015-06-05T19:12:51Z jasom: right
2015-06-05T19:13:29Z rpg: I'm wondering if I can wrap a (let ((*package* <my-pkg>))) ...) around a call to load bad lisp files and get The Right Thing to happen.
2015-06-05T19:13:56Z nyef: If adjusting the value of *PACKAGE* is what will make The Right Thing happen, then yes.
2015-06-05T19:14:27Z Shinmera: rpg: You can certainly do it by messing with ASDF (e.g. defining your own subclass to lisp-file that binds *package* in an :around asdf:perform method.
2015-06-05T19:14:29Z Shinmera: )
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2015-06-05T19:15:04Z Shinmera: Or just add your own around to lisp-file directly, though I don't know if that's a Good Idea™
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2015-06-05T19:19:39Z Baggers: Is there a way to set the swank :style parameter from slime? The only var that looked promising seems to be populated by swank rather than the other way around
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2015-06-05T19:24:01Z nyef: Baggers: Before or after connection?
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2015-06-05T19:24:15Z nyef: Oh, wait, SET it?
2015-06-05T19:24:17Z nyef: Hrm.
2015-06-05T19:24:40Z nyef: No idea.
2015-06-05T19:24:59Z Baggers: before ideally
2015-06-05T19:25:41Z Baggers: so I can start the connection with a specific :style without having to use swank:create-server
2015-06-05T19:26:57Z rpg: Shinmera, eudoxia: these are actually data files and are not loaded by ASDF.
2015-06-05T19:27:13Z eudoxia: oh then probs *package*
2015-06-05T19:27:47Z rpg: Someone has written a lot of problem specs into a boatload of files without specifying the package: code from the bad old days when everything lived in COMMON-LISP-USER....
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2015-06-05T19:30:23Z jasom: there was a debate on asdf-devel about what things ASDF should normalize (and restore) when loading systems
2015-06-05T19:31:41Z jasom: Faré was on one side and Robert on the other
2015-06-05T19:33:56Z jasom: IIRC Faré wanted the majority of the environment to be normalized and restored when loading each system (e.g. *read-default-float-format* and such) and Robert claimed there was code out there that depended on those values being different, and we shouldn't brek those things
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2015-06-05T19:37:15Z Xach: rpg is Robert
2015-06-05T19:37:49Z rpg: jasom: Yes, it turns out that the spec admits doing really heinous things to readtables.
2015-06-05T19:38:14Z rpg: Alas, READTABLES really seem to be a place where the spec got things wrong.  They should have been named things like packages.
2015-06-05T19:39:40Z Xach: named-readtables to the rescue
2015-06-05T19:40:18Z |3b|: Baggers: try setting swank:*communication-style* in .swank.lisp
2015-06-05T19:40:47Z |3b|:  ~/.swank.lisp
2015-06-05T19:42:09Z rpg: Xach: Yes, named-readtables are really the solution.
2015-06-05T19:43:08Z jasom: I'm still perturbed by the close coupling (and lack of customization) between the reader and interning
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2015-06-05T19:43:15Z Baggers: |3b|: Cheers, if I can do it without hardcoding that would be cool, but if not it's no real both to just use swank:create-server
2015-06-05T19:43:30Z jasom: It means we are stuck with the package system the spec provides us.
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2015-06-05T19:44:15Z Shinmera: One could replace the entire reader.
2015-06-05T19:44:22Z jasom: Shinmera: I've done so
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2015-06-05T19:44:41Z jasom: https://github.com/jasom/spm-reader
2015-06-05T19:44:50Z dlowe: doesn't really help if some library depends on the old one, though
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2015-06-05T19:47:28Z jasom: The spm-reader could be made actually useful if you don't care about symbols that start with unicode characters
2015-06-05T19:47:39Z jasom: then the size of the readtable would be much more tractible
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2015-06-05T19:49:26Z jasom: package-local-nicknames will probably win, but that requires implementation support to work, IIRC
2015-06-05T19:51:08Z dlowe: For unicode, I imagine you'd want to have two readtables - one for character classes and another for individual characters.
2015-06-05T19:51:09Z fe[nl]ix: one could make an almost-CL implementation that would be compatible with most most sane CL code
2015-06-05T19:51:27Z dlowe: CL - the sane parts
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2015-06-05T19:53:01Z fe[nl]ix: with a non-interning reader one using find-symbol at runtime wouldn't be the same, but most code would work
2015-06-05T19:57:31Z dlowe: I'd be fine with first-class packages
2015-06-05T19:57:52Z fe[nl]ix: what do you mean ?
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2015-06-05T19:58:55Z dlowe: as an alternative to non-interning (so that identifiers would be strings?), you could pass in packages for the reader to use and they wouldn't have global scope or infinite lifespan
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2015-06-05T20:00:24Z fe[nl]ix: the compiler would do the interning, and there would be a different package set from the one available at runtime
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2015-06-05T20:01:51Z dlowe: part of what makes lisp elegant is the complete separation of reading and compilation. I don't think the benefits would be worth it.
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2015-06-05T20:05:53Z jasom: I'm okay with read-time interning, I just wish it were programmable (like the rest of lisp)
2015-06-05T20:06:01Z jasom: and I agree that anonymous packages would be nice
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2015-06-05T20:06:31Z jasom: anonymous packages, plus customization of interning would let you write nearly any package system you want
2015-06-05T20:06:33Z dlowe: well, you'd want like a named-package-set or something
2015-06-05T20:07:11Z dlowe: the ugly, unelegant bit about the system is that evaluation has to happen for new packages to be defined
2015-06-05T20:07:24Z fe[nl]ix: this requires some thinking
2015-06-05T20:07:52Z dlowe: so you're back to munging the compiler/evaluator with the reader in order to read s-exprs
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2015-06-05T20:08:22Z dlowe: implicit package creation could fix that, I guess
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2015-06-05T20:08:44Z fe[nl]ix: I like that in .NET you have first-class compilation environments that inherit from one another - the whole thing is a persistent tree IIRC
2015-06-05T20:08:46Z dlowe: especially if you passed in a package set
2015-06-05T20:09:01Z fe[nl]ix: and that allows parallel compilation in a single process
2015-06-05T20:09:01Z dlowe: fe[nl]ix: documentation? I don't know anything about .NET
2015-06-05T20:09:36Z fe[nl]ix: I don't remember what they call 'em, but a C# guy once explained it to me and I thought it's really cool
2015-06-05T20:10:05Z dlowe: parallel compilation in lisp is hard because we can modify the compilation process. My own projects just keep macros in a separate directory which is always loaded first.
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2015-06-05T20:10:42Z dlowe: macros, defvars, defpackages, everything to set up the compilation environment in one place
2015-06-05T20:11:00Z dlowe: and then the rest of the source can be compiled at once
2015-06-05T20:11:18Z dlowe: most projects don't do that, though
2015-06-05T20:11:36Z rpg: dlowe: how often do you have a codebase that's big enough to recoup the considerable investment required to tool up that parallel compilation?
2015-06-05T20:11:40Z fe[nl]ix: if you have dependency information between files, and compile-file didn't modify the global environment, you could do a partially parallel compilation
2015-06-05T20:11:53Z rpg: For anything non-ITA-scale, it seems like a uniprocess compilation is just fine.
2015-06-05T20:12:17Z dlowe: rpg: not often. it mostly just makes dependency checking a lot cleaner
2015-06-05T20:12:33Z dlowe: e.g. if I modify a macro, it just recompiles the whole source tree
2015-06-05T20:12:50Z dlowe: which may be wasteful, but at least I don't end up with a stale function
2015-06-05T20:12:52Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: right, but a lot of the power of the macro system comes from that global environment modification.
2015-06-05T20:13:21Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: not really. even at my small previous startup, full compilation took minutes every time I modified one of the base files
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2015-06-05T20:14:50Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: imagine compile-file returning a different environment instead of modifying the global one implicitly
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2015-06-05T20:15:13Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: I get it, but the cost in human hours to get all that parallel compilation stuff to work seems shockingly high.
2015-06-05T20:15:20Z fe[nl]ix: then, in the case of a parallel ASDF, you could save that to a fasl, or "load" it into the global environment
2015-06-05T20:15:35Z dlowe: fe[nl]ix: why have global environments in that case? :D
2015-06-05T20:15:39Z Shinmera: Isn't beach doing something with different environments for the varying phases?
2015-06-05T20:15:41Z dlowe: your global environment could be very small
2015-06-05T20:16:10Z fe[nl]ix: dlowe: I still want a REPL accessing the results of the latest compilation
2015-06-05T20:16:17Z drmeister: Yay! I can compile with Clasp+Cleavir again.
2015-06-05T20:16:36Z dlowe: fe[nl]ix: the result would be a reference to data in the sub-environment
2015-06-05T20:16:55Z rpg: I find I do the vast majority of my compilation piecemeal, fixing one defun (or similar small unit) at a time, so I don't get as much benefit from big make-style restructurings.
2015-06-05T20:17:03Z Shinmera: drmeister: Can you feel the speed yet?
2015-06-05T20:17:08Z rpg: But I use ACL, which is much more friendly to incremental development.
2015-06-05T20:17:32Z dlowe: it becomes a lot more important with larger teams
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2015-06-05T20:17:57Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: I don't think ACL recompiles automatically all code that used the macro you just redefined
2015-06-05T20:18:22Z dlowe: honestly, sbcl keeps so much xref information, it probably *could*
2015-06-05T20:19:07Z fe[nl]ix: but then it would need to integrate with ASDF to find the order in which it should recompile the files
2015-06-05T20:19:14Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: I guess I don't add new macros that much any more. I've been on multiple teams now with developers who misused them and made the codebase write-only, so now I avoid them more and more.
2015-06-05T20:19:30Z rpg: or they get defined once and stay forever (and are way up the build tree).
2015-06-05T20:20:00Z fe[nl]ix: or even with a function, maybe it's used at compile-time in another file to define a constant
2015-06-05T20:20:26Z fe[nl]ix: and then you need to dirty part of the deptree in your project and recompile those files
2015-06-05T20:20:32Z pjb: drmeister: specialness is something that should probably be stored in environments, since you can declare a symbol to be special only in some lexical scope.
2015-06-05T20:21:10Z pjb: (defun f () (declare (special x)) x)  (let ((x 42)) (declare (special x)) (f)) --> 42  (let ((x 33)) (f)) --> unbound variable x.
2015-06-05T20:21:18Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: so I was basically recompiling the whole project from scratch several times per day just to be sure
2015-06-05T20:21:31Z drmeister: pjb: Yes. But the specialness test is only needed for the top level environment.  Cleavir takes care of local specialness.
2015-06-05T20:22:41Z drmeister: What I mean is I only needed to test for specialness in the top-level environment to provide information to Cleavir regarding the top-level environment.  Cleavir keeps track of specialness within it's own lexical environments.
2015-06-05T20:22:52Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: I guess I just don't find myself rooting around in the top of the structure like that. And code that's structured like that would specifically foil parallel compilation.
2015-06-05T20:23:24Z rpg: I.e., all the arguments you've made for needing to recompile everything would tend to linearize the build....
2015-06-05T20:23:53Z fe[nl]ix: nope because in many cases you have files in a module that don't have interdependencies
2015-06-05T20:24:28Z jackkk: one needs twin chordials for interlooper
2015-06-05T20:25:13Z fe[nl]ix: e.g. iolib, I could go from 60-70 sequence points to less than 15 probably
2015-06-05T20:25:52Z drmeister: pjb: My bootstrapping compiler (which I wrote myself) also has lexical environments (nothing would work if it didn't) and they keep track of lexically special variables.  What I was asking about previously was related to why Common Lisp doesn't define a standard way to determine if a symbol is special in the top level environment - like CL:BOUNDP why isn't
2015-06-05T20:25:52Z drmeister: there a CL:SPECIALP?
2015-06-05T20:27:06Z jasom: drmeister: I expect boundp predates lexical environments
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2015-06-05T20:27:27Z drmeister: When I run into things that seem like omissions I wonder if there is not a deep reason why there is an omission.   I've come a long way working from the idea that the people who developed Common Lisp were smarter than I am.  :-)
2015-06-05T20:27:50Z drmeister: jasom: That would make a lot of sense.  Back then everything was special.
2015-06-05T20:28:03Z pjb: drmeister: that was an overlook. It's not the only one.
2015-06-05T20:28:12Z drmeister: We live in such ordinary times.
2015-06-05T20:28:23Z pjb: drmeister: otherwise, it's perfectly right to implement it as you said.
2015-06-05T20:28:30Z Bike: you could check specialp with cltl2, but that's about it
2015-06-05T20:29:08Z fe[nl]ix: there used to be a cliki page about silly mistakes and omissions in the standard
2015-06-05T20:29:13Z pjb: drmeister: sometimes, the reason is that it was hard to implement in some of the implementation of the people who financed the standardization process…
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2015-06-05T20:29:42Z pjb: fe[nl]ix: yes. Too bad computers and the internet lose memory.
2015-06-05T20:29:58Z jasom: There is, in general, no way to get the declarations in the global environment, right?
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2015-06-05T20:30:58Z pjb: jasom: there's no standard way to get the declarations indeed.
2015-06-05T20:31:11Z jasom: because specialp would be a special case of that
2015-06-05T20:31:13Z pjb: jasom: there's no standard way to query the environment.
2015-06-05T20:31:22Z pjb: specialp as I mentionned above depends on the environment.
2015-06-05T20:31:51Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: iolib is a good example!
2015-06-05T20:32:08Z Bike: cltl2 let you get declarations, so there you go
2015-06-05T20:32:29Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: image a system where there's a base class in a file
2015-06-05T20:32:53Z fe[nl]ix: and hundreds of derived classes, each in its own file
2015-06-05T20:33:02Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: Probably FFI-ish sorts of things are also a good example....
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2015-06-05T20:33:28Z p_l: rpg: Back then world was probably not yet as into "everything is C" as it is now
2015-06-05T20:33:28Z rpg: But I do sort of feel that your design has failed if you find yourself messing around in the root of a tree like that.
2015-06-05T20:33:35Z fe[nl]ix: or something like alexandria, lots of small but independent files
2015-06-05T20:33:55Z rpg: I.e., I should be able to go months without recompiling alexandria.
2015-06-05T20:34:18Z fe[nl]ix: sometime you do have to operate on the base class
2015-06-05T20:34:21Z dim: in the case of pgloader I have a base class and a set of generic functions to subclass and implement in each source
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2015-06-05T20:34:49Z dim: you could compile all the sources in paralell, once you've compiled (loaded?) the "API"
2015-06-05T20:34:51Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: You work on those base classes so I don't have to! ;-)
2015-06-05T20:35:26Z rpg: Actually, the system I work on that takes the longest to compile is also the most horrible one with the worst internal state during compilation....
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2015-06-05T20:36:04Z rpg: Probably be just as easy to shitcan the whole thing and start over as it would be to get it to compile in parallel!
2015-06-05T20:36:24Z average: I was thinking of learning Common Lisp better
2015-06-05T20:36:29Z average: but just for fun mostly
2015-06-05T20:36:40Z average: I don't imagine ever making money as a professional programmer with it
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2015-06-05T20:36:59Z average: although I use elisp in Org-Mode and Org helps me tremendously while I work
2015-06-05T20:37:02Z jackkk: average why not?
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2015-06-05T20:37:15Z average: jackkk: I dunno, it just seems a bit far-fetched
2015-06-05T20:37:37Z jackkk: the stories i read about lisp
2015-06-05T20:37:50Z jackkk: speak differently
2015-06-05T20:38:22Z dim: well sometimes you're asked to deliver a working solution, and people don't care what tools you use to develop it... CL is a good advantage to have here
2015-06-05T20:38:22Z jackkk: but i am a real programmer
2015-06-05T20:38:23Z p_l: average: one of the best lessons one can learn in programming is that for huge amount of clients, it really doesn't matter what the language you write in is
2015-06-05T20:38:31Z average: jackkk: which stories are those exactly ?
2015-06-05T20:38:42Z average: dim: yeah but not that many clients want that
2015-06-05T20:38:44Z jackkk: yahoo
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2015-06-05T20:38:54Z jackkk: autocad
2015-06-05T20:39:07Z average: dim: usually there's this whole "the team, the team, work with the team, be in the team, the team, the team"
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2015-06-05T20:39:20Z average: dim: and teams usually need a common denominator, which nowadays is Python
2015-06-05T20:39:34Z p_l: average: ah, that depends on the kind of project you do
2015-06-05T20:39:43Z dim: well you do in 1 week alone what the team would have done in 1 month, then you spend 1 week teaching them what you did, and you still have 2 weeks to debate about it
2015-06-05T20:39:52Z jackkk: and some story i read where they had little time and they used clisp and made it
2015-06-05T20:39:52Z jackkk: whomever used lisp had an advantage
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2015-06-05T20:40:14Z p_l: average: it's much easier now than it was a decade ago, when web was stiffled by PHP-only cheapohosts
2015-06-05T20:40:45Z jackkk: paul graham said it was best for prototyping
2015-06-05T20:40:59Z jackkk: i myself see it as ultimate programing tool
2015-06-05T20:41:15Z dim: thing is, with CL, most of my prototypes go into production
2015-06-05T20:41:24Z dim: and refining them is quite easy
2015-06-05T20:41:37Z dim: refactoring, not so much, tho
2015-06-05T20:41:39Z jackkk: NASA used lisp machines
2015-06-05T20:41:47Z jackkk: i mean..lisp was everywhere
2015-06-05T20:41:55Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: or, in a CI environment one typically wants to recompile the whole project every time. with a parallel compilation it would take a lot less
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2015-06-05T20:42:15Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: Yes, that's true.
2015-06-05T20:42:32Z jackkk: average if you ask me its not far fetched
2015-06-05T20:42:53Z dim: see https://travis-ci.org/dimitri/pgloader/builds for durations of compiling pgloader (plus some more, of course, unit tests and preparing the VM, installing SBCL etc)
2015-06-05T20:43:10Z rpg: But again, in the CI environment a lot of time the cycles are cheap and the programmer hours expensive. To get something like POIU to work, you need to have a lot of discipline building the system from the start, because refactoring for parallel build is so costly.
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2015-06-05T20:43:44Z jackkk: paul graham yahoo store was mistery to competitors cause whatever novelty they intriduced yahoo had it next day basically:)
2015-06-05T20:43:49Z rpg: Must run: thanks for the conversation -- it was very informative.
2015-06-05T20:44:17Z dim: rpg: we're still talking 5 to 10 minutes to compile ~10,000 lines
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2015-06-05T20:51:18Z fe[nl]ix: dim: most of the build time is VM setup
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2015-06-05T20:51:44Z dim: a good chunk of it, that's true, I didn't remember "most" of it tho
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2015-06-05T20:53:12Z fe[nl]ix: oh no, the numbers on the left are not seconds
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2015-06-05T20:54:27Z jasom: rpg: alternatively reducing length of modify-test cycle can improve productivity, so in some cases it can be worth it.
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2015-06-05T21:02:35Z dim: jasom: for that we have a REPL and C-M-x ;-)
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2015-06-05T21:42:11Z rpg: What do you all do for parallel builds?  I thought POIU was just a proof-of-concept?
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2015-06-05T21:42:37Z p_l: iirc XCVB went further into it?
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2015-06-05T21:43:03Z p_l: best would be a runtime that allowed multiple lisp images with common GC, though :)
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2015-06-05T21:43:20Z p_l looks jealously at .NET CLR
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2015-06-05T22:24:34Z drmeister: How do you give talks about software without putting up a lot of word slides?
2015-06-05T22:24:49Z drmeister hates word slides.
2015-06-05T22:25:45Z drmeister: When I talk about Chemistry it involves a lot of molecular structures and cartoons and graphs.
2015-06-05T22:25:55Z _death: we have memes
2015-06-05T22:26:36Z p_l: drmeister: use only headlines, whimsical drawings, 60s~70s (or soviet) vintage block diagrams
2015-06-05T22:26:43Z drmeister: That's a good point.  I did see several meme slides at ELS.
2015-06-05T22:27:10Z drmeister: But they are more distracting than anything else.
2015-06-05T22:27:32Z p_l had the "Ain't nobody got time for that" meme in his Master's presentation
2015-06-05T22:28:01Z _death: also, we can have code in slides
2015-06-05T22:28:14Z eudoxia: Xach: could you give swank-protocol a try now?
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2015-06-05T23:01:36Z dennis_: do any of you know where I could find a lisp machine
2015-06-05T23:01:58Z |3b|: various museums, ebay
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2015-06-05T23:02:16Z nyef: Dare we suggest using an emulator instead?
2015-06-05T23:02:26Z dennis_: I tried the one in ruby
2015-06-05T23:02:28Z dnm: nyef: Heh.
2015-06-05T23:02:28Z dennis_: it didn't work out
2015-06-05T23:02:36Z dennis_: do you have any other way?
2015-06-05T23:02:52Z dennis_: nothing on ebay
2015-06-05T23:02:53Z nyef: There's... a lisp machine emulator in ruby now?
2015-06-05T23:03:09Z dennis_: it uses ruby to hack together a virtualbox/vagrant setup
2015-06-05T23:03:10Z dnm: That would be... interesting.
2015-06-05T23:03:13Z dnm: Oh, that.
2015-06-05T23:03:25Z dennis_: any other emulators?
2015-06-05T23:03:26Z dnm: Well, you don't need to use Vagrant per se.
2015-06-05T23:03:32Z dnm: Did you get the emulator itself working?
2015-06-05T23:03:38Z dnm: There are other emulators for other LispMs.
2015-06-05T23:03:45Z dennis_: which ones?
2015-06-05T23:03:46Z dnm: In various states of completeness/workingness.
2015-06-05T23:03:47Z nyef: Is that... something based on snap4?
2015-06-05T23:03:54Z dennis_: links?
2015-06-05T23:03:59Z dnm: nyef: I think so, yes. snap4 or snap5.
2015-06-05T23:04:27Z nyef: dennis_: http://unlambda.com/
2015-06-05T23:04:45Z dennis_: what do I download?
2015-06-05T23:05:13Z dnm: Which machine do you want to emulate?
2015-06-05T23:05:21Z dennis_: idk
2015-06-05T23:05:46Z dennis_: one that works
2015-06-05T23:05:53Z dnm: Maybe hit Wikipedia first for some research reading, otherwise this will be confusing and and frustrating.
2015-06-05T23:06:00Z dennis_: ok
2015-06-05T23:06:02Z dennis_: I have to go
2015-06-05T23:06:04Z dennis_: sorry
2015-06-05T23:06:34Z dnm: I mean, even in a perfect emulator, using a LispM is really different from modern OSs, and with emulator quirks and setup on top of that, you'll probably tap out if you don't know what you're in for.
2015-06-05T23:07:11Z dennis_: ok
2015-06-05T23:07:15Z dennis_: I didn't have to go
2015-06-05T23:07:48Z nyef: Heh. I tried to tap out fifteen minutes before I got an emulator running. Because I realized that by that point I already had learned what I wanted to know from having the emulator. (-:
2015-06-05T23:07:56Z dennis_: which emulator?
2015-06-05T23:08:17Z dnm: Although speaking of LispMs, is anyone else running Genera/OpenGenera and has their favorite hacks to share? I was digging around the other day looking for any collections of such, and found a few pages here or there. Finding Genera or other LispM hackers with their hacks published is pretty rare, it seems.
2015-06-05T23:08:20Z nyef: In my case, nevermore. Though I'd recommend not using that one yourself.
2015-06-05T23:08:24Z dnm: I guess I should email Kalman Reti.
2015-06-05T23:09:00Z White_Flame: Has anybody bothered reimplementing a classic LispM environment on top of a current Lisp?
2015-06-05T23:09:01Z H4ns: dnm: most real lispm hackers are too old to share their stuff on the internet :)
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2015-06-05T23:09:47Z dnm: H4ns: Hah! Well, I don't buy that really. =] They were there before the rest of us. ;]
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2015-06-05T23:10:05Z dennis_: the one I downloaded isnt working
2015-06-05T23:10:09Z dnm: Some of JWZs hacks were in the CMU AI repository years ago last I checked.
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2015-06-05T23:10:24Z dennis_: which thing do I download from unlambda?
2015-06-05T23:10:27Z nyef: dnm: Ooh! Does that include MOST-POSITIVE-BIGNUM ?
2015-06-05T23:11:07Z H4ns: dnm: consider that "sharing a lispm hack" will be much harder than using and copy and paste on a contemporary system
2015-06-05T23:11:36Z dennis_: ?
2015-06-05T23:11:36Z H4ns: dnm: you'll have to put your hack into a file on a server in your network, then share using a web browser on a real computer.
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2015-06-05T23:12:34Z H4ns: by "real computer" i obviously mean a machine modern machine with all the amenities that modern machines have :)
2015-06-05T23:13:13Z dennis_: which thing do I download from unlambda?
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2015-06-05T23:16:05Z dnm: nyef: It's mentioned in the readme, but I don't see it in this tarball...
2015-06-05T23:16:31Z dennis_: I downloaded this file: http://unlambda.com/download/genera/linux/genera
2015-06-05T23:16:34Z dennis_: what do I do now?
2015-06-05T23:17:14Z dnm: H4ns: Yeah, I suppose. But for people still using those systems, they likely already have that setup. And for people using a VLM, they've got NFS mounted filesystems, and/or FTP... ;]
2015-06-05T23:17:22Z dnm: But yes, I understand the general point you're making.
2015-06-05T23:17:43Z caoliver: nyef: my install script does the build as a non-priv, but was inheriting a TMPDIR owned by root, so permission denied.
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2015-06-05T23:21:08Z theodcyning: Hey #lisp, what is a good tutorial/book for learning lisp for someone with comp sci experience?
2015-06-05T23:21:32Z nyef: minion: Tell theodcyning about that-dead-sexy-book
2015-06-05T23:21:32Z minion: theodcyning: please look at that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
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2015-06-05T23:23:10Z theodcyning: minion: Thanks a lot, that looks very helpful. I tried out Land of Lisp but I wasn't a massive fan.
2015-06-05T23:23:10Z minion: np
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2015-06-06T00:23:21Z average: http://garage-coding.com/z.html
2015-06-06T00:23:52Z pjb: theodcyning: have a look at http://cliki.net/Getting+Started
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2015-06-06T00:40:21Z bison891: night to all
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2015-06-06T00:59:02Z pjb: So, what would be the current xml or xml-rpc access point of paste.lisp.org?  (or to make it simple, how do I send a request?)
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2015-06-06T01:03:44Z average: pjb: maybe just use gist.github.com ?
2015-06-06T01:03:49Z average: pjb: they have an api ..
2015-06-06T01:05:22Z average: pjb: but coming back to your question about paste.lisp.org
2015-06-06T01:05:26Z average: pjb: have you read this ? https://www.common-lisp.net/project/lisppaste/xml-rpc.html
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2015-06-06T01:05:43Z average: it says there's an XML-RPC interface on port 8185 of common-lisp.net
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2015-06-06T01:12:11Z dennis_: dang
2015-06-06T01:12:15Z dennis_: I just got the emulator to work
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2015-06-06T01:22:53Z dennis_: where is the meta key in cadr?
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2015-06-06T01:27:58Z dennis_: how do I list my programs on the cadr machine?
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2015-06-06T01:46:32Z pjb: average: Yes, I've read it, but it doesn't seem to be activated for paste.lisp.org.  It seems now it's REST, with http://paste.lisp.org/display/1/xml
2015-06-06T01:46:39Z pjb: Which is good enough for me.
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2015-06-06T01:47:35Z pjb: dennis_: I have no idea, but perhaps you have a function like in CL (directory "*.LISP") (directory "**;*.LISP") ?
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2015-06-06T02:42:04Z dennis_: do any of you fine gentlemen have a copy of the opengenera2 tar archive?
2015-06-06T02:43:33Z pjb: https://www.google.fr/search?q=%22opengenera2.tar.bz2%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=Rl5yVYigH8L7ULbggMgN
2015-06-06T02:44:11Z dennis_: thanks so much
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2015-06-06T02:49:14Z dennis_: im so close
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2015-06-06T03:02:52Z average: dennis_: pm-ed you some notes i found online
2015-06-06T03:03:47Z nyef: Heh. "So close". Heard that one before.
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2015-06-06T03:04:28Z average: so dennis_ , I believe it may be possible for you to get opengenera2 but.. what will you do with it ?
2015-06-06T03:04:38Z average: I mean, it's so old, and apparently doesn't run very well, even in a VM ..
2015-06-06T03:04:46Z average: like.. what would you do with it in 2015 ?
2015-06-06T03:05:23Z nyef: For that matter, I'm "so close" on another project, but it turns out that what I'm "so close" to is "another series of projects before I'll actually get the payoff I've been looking for". /-:
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2015-06-06T03:09:51Z pjb: average: there are unequaled software running on genera.
2015-06-06T03:10:11Z average: pjb: haha, like what ?
2015-06-06T03:10:20Z pjb: We have the CL implementations, but we'd still need to re-develop a lot of those software.
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2015-06-06T03:11:27Z average: honestly I don't even know how they managed to make Lisp machines
2015-06-06T03:11:32Z average: someone said "yes" at some point
2015-06-06T03:11:35Z average: and then they made them
2015-06-06T03:11:48Z average: but I'm not sure how they've convinced that someone to say "yes"
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2015-06-06T03:12:25Z pjb: hyyp://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~weel/lispm/genera-concepts.pdf
2015-06-06T03:12:46Z pjb: average: ok. You've proven your ignorance.  Go read some more.
2015-06-06T03:13:43Z average: i can't actually know everything about everything sir
2015-06-06T03:13:54Z average: so.. i'm sorry that I don't know about these lisp machines or genera..
2015-06-06T03:13:57Z pjb: No, but instead of talking, you could browse the web and be reading.
2015-06-06T03:14:38Z average: I have sir, I've done that quite a lot today up to this point.
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2015-06-06T05:14:24Z drmeister: Is it wrong to use paths like #P"sys:..;tests;lisp;add.lsp" ?  Specifically, the "sys:.." part.
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2015-06-06T05:15:12Z pjb: Not as long as you define the SYS logical host.
2015-06-06T05:17:24Z drmeister: Yes, it's defined.  I'm worried that the "..;tests;lisp" is being interpreted as (list :absolute ".." "tests" "lisp").  There is a function in the pathname code that I rewrote based on ECL code that flags (list :absolute "..") as an error.
2015-06-06T05:17:57Z drmeister: That's my current hypothesis.
2015-06-06T05:18:01Z pjb: Oh, you mean there's a ".." in the path.
2015-06-06T05:18:08Z drmeister: yes.
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2015-06-06T05:18:59Z drmeister: the host "sys:" translates as "/Users/meister/src/lisp/"
2015-06-06T05:19:33Z pjb: The presence of ".." in that string makes it an implementation dependant physical pathname.
2015-06-06T05:19:35Z drmeister: I was trying to access the /Users/meister/src/tests/lisp directory.  So I used "sys:..;tests;lisp;foo.lsp"
2015-06-06T05:19:43Z pjb: See 19.3.1 for the syntax of logical pathnames.
2015-06-06T05:21:21Z pjb: what you can do, is to translate a VALID logical pathname, and then merge the result with a physical pathname containing :up or :back.
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2015-06-06T05:23:17Z pjb: cf 19.2.2.4.3 for up and back.
2015-06-06T05:25:03Z drmeister: Thanks
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2015-06-06T05:26:45Z pjb: cf 19.1.3 for parsing namestring; you'll see that as an implementer you have a lot of freedom.
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2015-06-06T06:44:43Z Shinmera: Good morning, #lisp.
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2015-06-06T06:46:38Z average: hey Shinmera
2015-06-06T06:46:42Z average: Shinmera: what is up ?
2015-06-06T06:46:46Z average: what is up Shinmera , please tell us
2015-06-06T06:46:58Z average: let us know, how your parenthesis are going
2015-06-06T06:47:04Z average: your ((( ))))
2015-06-06T06:47:11Z average: (()()()))()()))
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2015-06-06T06:47:21Z average: Shinmera: don't radio silence
2015-06-06T06:47:25Z average: tell us more, tell us about your lisp
2015-06-06T06:47:28Z average: tell us
2015-06-06T06:47:32Z average: c'mon don't be shy
2015-06-06T06:47:40Z average: we're here to discuss these parenthesis
2015-06-06T06:48:47Z Quadrescence: lte me anser questiona about LISP
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2015-06-06T06:51:00Z Zhivago: What is LISP's favourite colour?
2015-06-06T06:51:43Z average: Zhivago: blue
2015-06-06T06:52:03Z average: Quadrescence: yes please answer the questions about lisp
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2015-06-06T06:52:08Z average: Quadrescence: answer all the questions
2015-06-06T06:52:19Z Quadrescence: ok shoot
2015-06-06T06:52:29Z average: http://i.imgur.com/SdKBuJJ.jpg
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2015-06-06T06:52:36Z Quadrescence: Zhivago, it is #<BLUE>
2015-06-06T06:52:40Z average: (shoot)
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2015-06-06T06:53:09Z average: Shinmera: why are you quiet sir ? don't you see how social we are here on IRC ?
2015-06-06T06:53:15Z average: we talk with eachother like it's real life
2015-06-06T06:53:24Z average: we pretend to know eachother
2015-06-06T06:53:41Z average: even if we're from different contintes and living completely different lives
2015-06-06T06:53:48Z average: we still pretend we have things in common
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2015-06-06T06:54:32Z average: for example, a synthetic language composed of conventions, and we use this language to describe mechanisms to machines
2015-06-06T06:54:52Z average: then we pretend our code is intended primarily for humans and not machines, and we read/write blog posts about it
2015-06-06T06:55:06Z Zhivago: Unfortunately some of us don't learn how to shut up.
2015-06-06T06:55:14Z average: and then people start believing it and write twitter posts about it as if it were true, except it's not
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2015-06-06T06:55:40Z Zhivago: Javascript is the best lisp: Discuss.
2015-06-06T06:56:16Z average: javascript is a lot like cobol, except it's javascript and not cobol
2015-06-06T06:56:36Z average: lisp is a lot like java, except it has nothing to do with java and everything is different
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2015-06-06T07:01:08Z average: Zhivago: let us talk
2015-06-06T07:01:30Z average: let's pretend we are augmenting our knowledge with new things from these IRC conversations
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2015-06-06T07:10:07Z Walex: average: "we pretend our code is intended primarily for humans and not machines" is exactly what programming is all about.
2015-06-06T07:10:35Z Walex: average: it is not a pretence, it is the very core of programming.
2015-06-06T07:11:08Z Walex: average: unfortunately a lot of people who don't understand programming think that "language to describe mechanisms to machines".
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2015-06-06T07:12:19Z Walex: average: programming languages exist to describe mechanisms, regardless of the reader, but the reader that matters is always the human reader. Whether it is the original programmer or a later one. Target machines are just one of the possible types of readers.
2015-06-06T07:14:40Z average: Walex: but how is it that if we care so much about human readers, instead of employing the practice of literate programming, we make huge compromises and always hurry up at the barking of managers to put together bullshit code ?
2015-06-06T07:14:51Z average: Walex: I am afraid I will have to 100% disagree with you
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2015-06-06T07:15:48Z average: Walex: literate programming would be a way that really puts the human on the pedestal
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2015-06-06T07:16:14Z average: Walex: that would really emphasize programs being written primarily for humans and not for machines
2015-06-06T07:16:19Z average: Walex: nobody does it :)
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2015-06-06T07:17:28Z ggole: Plenty of programming is done with the mechanism primarily in mind.
2015-06-06T07:17:30Z average: then some men or women on Twitter are all like "Code is first meant to be read/understood by humans but also executed by machines"
2015-06-06T07:18:41Z average: that's at least disingenous
2015-06-06T07:18:49Z Zhivago: Programming languages do not describe mechanisms at all, generally.
2015-06-06T07:18:57Z average: Zhivago: oh really ?
2015-06-06T07:19:03Z average: Zhivago knows it all today
2015-06-06T07:19:07Z average: mr. Zhivago , tell us more
2015-06-06T07:19:10Z Walex: average: but literate programming has nothing to do with "first meant to be read/understood by humans"
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2015-06-06T07:19:15Z average: so we can learn from your vast wisdom
2015-06-06T07:19:49Z average: Walex: hm? then maybe literate programming is made for machines
2015-06-06T07:19:56Z Zhivago: Generally they are used to describe problems sufficiently that a solution can be derived from the description.
2015-06-06T07:20:13Z Zhivago: Machines are irrelevant.
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2015-06-06T07:20:44Z average: machines are quite relevant
2015-06-06T07:20:51Z Shinmera: I think I'll be back once this channel returns to being #lisp
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2015-06-06T07:21:30Z Walex: average: "make huge compromises and always hurry up at the barking of managers to put together bullshit code" happens because correctness (for machines) and maintainability (for humans) are not valued much in the marketplace.
2015-06-06T07:22:05Z Walex: average: and literate programming does not make programs more readable by humans, that was an illusion.
2015-06-06T07:22:16Z average: is it an illusion ?
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2015-06-06T07:22:59Z Zhivago: Let me know if you'd like these two quieted.
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2015-06-06T07:23:53Z average: mr Zhivago , can you not see that we are discussing very important matters here ? we are discussing the future of programming
2015-06-06T07:24:03Z average: you must let us proceed with our dissemination
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2015-06-06T07:24:09Z Walex: average: we are actually discussing Lisp here...
2015-06-06T07:24:09Z average: you shall not interrupt
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2015-06-06T07:25:35Z Walex: average: Lisp I was about to say does not look like very much like literate programming, but it can be a very good means of communicating mechanism descriptions among humans because it can make the structure/semantics of the description pretty clear.
2015-06-06T07:26:16Z average: honestly, judging by the pickiness these cause: tabs vs. spaces, indentation, certain comment style, coding standards, brace style ...
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2015-06-06T07:26:53Z average: there is so much bs in that, it would all be much better if all that was prohibited from the very beginning so there would be no bikeshedding or opportunity for debate around it
2015-06-06T07:26:59Z Walex: average: there is also quite a bit of "obfuscated Lisp" out there, but regardless of the syntax, the structural clarity of Lisp (even with a peculiar syntax) makes it good to describe mechanisms (see SICP for the usual reference).
2015-06-06T07:27:56Z Walex: average: originally Lisp 1.5 was meant to be the "p-code" for LISP 2, an ALOGOL-syntax language, which never really happened.
2015-06-06T07:28:53Z Walex: average: in part because LISP 1.5 turned out to be very readable by people, even if it was originally targeted at machines, and has a non-obvious syntax.
2015-06-06T07:29:17Z average: oh no, it was readable by people ?
2015-06-06T07:29:24Z average: omg, what were they thinking ?!
2015-06-06T07:29:53Z average: should humans be allowed to understand code if machines are going to execute it anyway ?
2015-06-06T07:30:34Z Walex: average: there is an example of LISP 2 here: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4477
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2015-06-06T07:30:38Z average: the "read by humans, executed by machines" has so much obviousness in it..
2015-06-06T07:30:50Z average: I find it to be such a stupid and retarded theme
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2015-06-06T07:31:06Z average: I can't even describe the level of retardedness ..
2015-06-06T07:32:33Z average: I think that statement is just double-speak for "someone's code sucks" or "your code is unreadable"
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2015-06-06T07:32:36Z average: but anyway
2015-06-06T07:33:13Z average: FWIW, humans can understand what other humans said, there are archaeologists right now digging s*it up from some ruins to read what some idiots wrote thousands of years ago
2015-06-06T07:33:47Z average: that's amazing, at what lengths those archaeologists go, and programmers can't even understand what they wrote
2015-06-06T07:33:55Z average: how bizarre
2015-06-06T07:34:57Z average: or they complain: "ewww, your code is nasty, code is primarily meant for humans to read and secondly for machines to execute"
2015-06-06T07:35:01Z average: what a stupid statement
2015-06-06T07:35:44Z average: twitter is filled with these false wisdoms
2015-06-06T07:36:41Z average: "I shall tell you what programming is, in many lessons, 140 characters each"
2015-06-06T07:37:54Z Quadrescence: average, what question do u have 4 me
2015-06-06T07:38:27Z Walex: more LISP 2 example code: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/lisp2/SP-2450-SUMSQUARE_LCS.pdf
2015-06-06T07:38:52Z Quadrescence: this code is reallt bad
2015-06-06T07:38:58Z Quadrescence: literallty worst cde
2015-06-06T07:40:09Z Walex: "humans can understand what other humans said" that is dimissive of a few thousand years of experience that good and bad authors are very different categories.
2015-06-06T07:41:37Z H4ns: /-ignore -average
2015-06-06T07:41:40Z H4ns: oops
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2015-06-06T07:50:52Z pjb: average: you can also type M-x doctor RET in emacs.
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2015-06-06T07:54:39Z pjb: average: don't use twitter.  Very nice and good protocols have been designed for or ported to the Internet, like usenet (nntp), mail (smtp) and chat (irc).  Use them.  Ignore the others.
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2015-06-06T08:00:01Z Quadrescence: pjb, ask me ur hardest lisp question
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2015-06-06T08:01:41Z pjb: quiz: http://xach.livejournal.com/312567.html
2015-06-06T08:02:30Z Quadrescence: pjb, ur supposed to as k a q u e s t i o n
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2015-06-06T10:18:28Z dnm: Hrm.
2015-06-06T10:19:00Z dnm might be drunk
2015-06-06T10:19:13Z dnm might still have work to do, regardless
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2015-06-06T10:21:49Z decent: sounds like fun
2015-06-06T10:22:03Z dnm: Arguable, at best.
2015-06-06T10:22:33Z dnm: I do have to string some reasonable sentences together.
2015-06-06T10:23:03Z dnm: Which is not necessarily tough in speech, but is a bit harder in writing.
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2015-06-06T10:23:29Z dnm: Also exceptionally sleepy.
2015-06-06T10:23:41Z dnm: As expected.
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2015-06-06T10:28:45Z decent: so lots of fun.. could try not being drunk when you got work to do? :)
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2015-06-06T11:05:30Z k-stz: wouldn't it be nice for the quicklisp systems to provide the git files, so we can work on them and see past commits?
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2015-06-06T11:09:23Z Shinmera: Not everything uses GIT.
2015-06-06T11:09:53Z Shinmera: But yes, having a way to change a system into a "rolling" one is something Xach is intending on making possible in the future.
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2015-06-06T11:11:37Z k-stz: Shinmera: the system I just check out definitely use git, the question is why was the .git/ folder deliberately not included
2015-06-06T11:12:32Z Shinmera: Having the complete history for everything is going to accumulate a lot of space.
2015-06-06T11:13:03Z Shinmera: Not to mention that Quicklisp itself provides versioning by the dist releases.
2015-06-06T11:13:12Z k-stz: and distracts from the problem quicklisp tries to solve, well ok
2015-06-06T11:13:46Z Shinmera: I agree that having a way to get a hackable source system easily would be a big win
2015-06-06T11:14:47Z k-stz: how is the dist released versioning realized, is it (ql:available-dist-versions name)?
2015-06-06T11:15:17Z Shinmera: I'm afraid I don't quite understand what you're asking?
2015-06-06T11:15:49Z k-stz: I don't understand what you mean by "Quicklisp itself provides versioning by the dist releases"
2015-06-06T11:16:32Z Shinmera: Well each time a dist is released that particular snapshot gets a version number in the form of the date of the creation of the snapshot.
2015-06-06T11:16:48Z Shinmera: You can request any particular snapshot you want and thus step through individual versions.
2015-06-06T11:17:27Z k-stz: ah gotcha, thanks
2015-06-06T11:17:40Z Shinmera: This is one of quicklisp's main features.
2015-06-06T11:17:59Z Shinmera: Since it captures a complete snapshot of the entire library ecosystem, you can be sure that at any particular version it at least all compiled fine.
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2015-06-06T11:18:29Z Shinmera: It also avoids version mismatch scenarios since you'll always know what version each library has on each version of a dist.
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2015-06-06T11:19:10Z k-stz: so all libraries needed will definetly compile
2015-06-06T11:19:34Z DeadTrickster: yea esp when xach removes something you are using
2015-06-06T11:19:37Z Shinmera: Yes, Xach tests this regularly and sends out tickets when a new release is coming close (like now)
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2015-06-06T11:26:21Z k-stz: "sends out tickets" as in an email containing "you need to change your library, it doesn't work with the other libraries that I hava a quicklisp snapshot of. Please resolve this issue before I can accept your snapshot"
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2015-06-06T11:31:46Z Shinmera: Usually what we get is a report like http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-03-20/failure-report/plump.html
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2015-06-06T12:17:21Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
2015-06-06T12:18:36Z smokeink: good afternoon
2015-06-06T12:19:03Z decent: afternoon
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2015-06-06T12:23:21Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-06-06T12:57:36Z beach: drmeister: You seem to be using the "hostile" environment.  Any particular implementation should use implementation-specific functions to determine whether a symbol is the name of a special variable.
2015-06-06T13:01:36Z drmeister: Hi beach
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2015-06-06T13:04:21Z drmeister: beach: Yes, I fixed it by using an implementation specific function.
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2015-06-06T13:06:05Z beach: drmeister: I take it you also found the problem with compile-...?
2015-06-06T13:06:55Z drmeister: Yes, I've making progress towards getting cleavir back online.
2015-06-06T13:07:03Z drmeister: "I've been making progress"
2015-06-06T13:07:10Z drmeister: It's early
2015-06-06T13:07:12Z drmeister: here
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2015-06-06T13:08:12Z drmeister: My cleavir interface code isn't completely aware of tagged pointers or immediate values yet.
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2015-06-06T13:08:34Z drmeister: I thought I better get it working soon or I'll forget details.
2015-06-06T13:09:08Z beach: Yeah, good plan.
2015-06-06T13:09:29Z drmeister: For instance, NIL used to be a special value and I had a function that generated that special value. Now it's a regular symbol and the function needs to change to reflect that.
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2015-06-06T13:28:32Z smokeink: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149319 how would i go from here with the debugging ?
2015-06-06T13:29:39Z Zhivago: I'd probably go with gdb ...
2015-06-06T13:32:14Z smokeink: yeah i attached it and im getting sigsegv at 0x00007fffd0adae33 in cv_FaceRecognizer_train2
2015-06-06T13:32:25Z smokeink: but no idea how to continue
2015-06-06T13:32:30Z smokeink: what should i look for
2015-06-06T13:33:04Z smokeink: this is my issue http://paste.lisp.org/display/149148
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2015-06-06T13:42:54Z smokeink: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149321 backtrace
2015-06-06T13:43:48Z attila_lendvai: note that you can annotate the original paste, that's better for everyone
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2015-06-06T13:48:41Z smokeink annotated http://paste.lisp.org/display/149148#1
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2015-06-06T13:51:00Z Zhivago: Perhaps recompiling opencv with debugging support?
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2015-06-06T13:52:28Z smokeink going for it
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2015-06-06T14:02:19Z drmeister: beach: There's no function that I need to write to introduce immediate values is there?  You used to have a function called INTRODUCE-INTERMEDIATE but I see from reading commit history that you moved that functionality into the AST.
2015-06-06T14:03:37Z theos: clhs 11.1.2.1.2
2015-06-06T14:03:37Z specbot: Constraints on the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Programs: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm
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2015-06-06T14:10:16Z theos: clhs 17.2.1
2015-06-06T14:10:17Z specbot: Satisfying a Two-Argument Test: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/17_ba.htm
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2015-06-06T14:20:48Z beach: drmeister: Correct.  Now, immediates must be introduced at the AST level.
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2015-06-06T14:21:47Z beach: theos: You can use /msg specbot clhs ... if you don't need for others to see it.
2015-06-06T14:22:47Z theos: beach thanks. did you get offended?
2015-06-06T14:22:55Z beach: No, not at all.
2015-06-06T14:22:58Z beach: Just saying.
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2015-06-06T14:23:46Z theos: i just think that the owner of the bot might get offended that i am trying to misuse his bot in private so i keep it public :S
2015-06-06T14:23:49Z drmeister: beach: I'm seeing an assert failure when I compile Cleavir with Cleavir
2015-06-06T14:24:02Z drmeister: Hang on
2015-06-06T14:24:41Z drmeister: sicl/Code/Cleavir/Intermediate-representation/instruction.lisp
2015-06-06T14:24:57Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/qb8dUOGd/
2015-06-06T14:25:18Z drmeister: The assert on line 7.  I think the inputs are (NIL)
2015-06-06T14:25:53Z drmeister: I say "think" because my debugging capabilities in Cleavir compiled code are weak.
2015-06-06T14:26:04Z beach: The ASSERT is there because they shouldn't be NIL or anything other than DATUM.
2015-06-06T14:26:13Z drmeister: Right.
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2015-06-06T14:26:28Z beach: So you need to find out who put it there.
2015-06-06T14:26:28Z drmeister: I can give you a backtrace and many of the frames show variables.
2015-06-06T14:26:57Z beach: There should be a MAKE-INSTANCE immediately before this one.
2015-06-06T14:27:05Z drmeister: Yes.
2015-06-06T14:27:20Z beach: And there should be some function calling MAKE-INSTANCE with the wrong values.
2015-06-06T14:27:36Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/JBXIdLoL/
2015-06-06T14:28:19Z drmeister: Frame 22 - notice :INPUTS (NIL)
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2015-06-06T14:28:51Z drmeister: I should put some time into debugging info as well
2015-06-06T14:29:05Z beach: Seems to be MAKE-READ-CELL-INSTRUCTION
2015-06-06T14:29:11Z drmeister: Yes
2015-06-06T14:29:46Z beach: But that's all I can tell from the backtrace.
2015-06-06T14:30:06Z drmeister: That's about all I can tell as well.
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2015-06-06T14:31:11Z beach: There is only one place where that function is called.
2015-06-06T14:31:19Z beach: In segregate-lexicals.lisp
2015-06-06T14:31:41Z drmeister: It's compiling the DEFUN macro.  It's the first macro it compiles - if that helps.
2015-06-06T14:32:01Z beach: It appears that new-dynamic-temporary returns NIL sometimes.
2015-06-06T14:32:09Z drmeister: Ah.
2015-06-06T14:32:10Z beach: I can't see how that could possibly be the case.
2015-06-06T14:32:23Z drmeister: Does that go through my code?
2015-06-06T14:32:36Z beach: What do you mean by that?
2015-06-06T14:32:55Z drmeister: Is it my fault.  I'm totally fine with things being my fault.
2015-06-06T14:33:10Z beach: I don't know.
2015-06-06T14:33:23Z drmeister: Ok.  Investigating...
2015-06-06T14:33:26Z protist: I have an APL interpreter written in Common Lisp...it is not complete...who might be interested in bringing this to fruition?
2015-06-06T14:34:11Z protist: It can parse (as much as a proper APL should ;) ), run many things, etc
2015-06-06T14:34:23Z beach: drmeister: You might be able to trace new-dynamic-location and see what it does.
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2015-06-06T14:34:39Z protist: but there are many operations that require a lot of generality with respect to rank that require a lot of effort
2015-06-06T14:34:52Z drmeister: Yeah - looking at the code I can't see how it could return NIL
2015-06-06T14:35:05Z beach: sorry, new-dynamic-temporary
2015-06-06T14:35:15Z drmeister: Excellent suggestion.  I always enjoy code spelunking.
2015-06-06T14:35:27Z drmeister: Tracing...
2015-06-06T14:35:54Z drmeister: It will be a moment. I should start from the beginning.
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2015-06-06T14:37:06Z beach: You might want to trace NEW-INPUT as well.
2015-06-06T14:37:13Z drmeister: Will do...
2015-06-06T14:37:28Z beach: ... to make sure that it's not the second argument to it that is NIL.
2015-06-06T14:38:21Z drmeister: Ok, I'll do:  (trace cleavir-ir:new-dynamic-temporary cleavir-hir-transformations:new-input)
2015-06-06T14:39:00Z drmeister: Or rather: (trace cleavir-ir:new-dynamic-temporary cleavir-hir-transformations::new-input)
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2015-06-06T14:39:33Z beach: Right.
2015-06-06T14:39:35Z drmeister: It's not the first macro.
2015-06-06T14:39:44Z drmeister: defvar and defparameter compile fine
2015-06-06T14:40:40Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/2ZrUZv7N/
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2015-06-06T14:41:18Z drmeister: Investigating new-input in light of trace...
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2015-06-06T14:42:06Z drmeister: The gethash is returning nil.
2015-06-06T14:42:19Z drmeister: In new-inputs
2015-06-06T14:42:25Z beach: Yes, I can see how that would make it fail.
2015-06-06T14:42:54Z beach: This is an EQUAL hash table I think.
2015-06-06T14:43:01Z beach: Could there be a problem with those in Clasp?
2015-06-06T14:43:10Z beach: I think we have seen something like that before.
2015-06-06T14:44:07Z drmeister: There could be.
2015-06-06T14:44:17Z drmeister: I'm investigating...
2015-06-06T14:44:49Z beach: The thing to try to check is whether the hash table does contain something that is EQUAL to the query but it fails to find it.
2015-06-06T14:44:56Z drmeister: I can see the hash table in the backtrace, then I hit the wrong key and lost it - checking.
2015-06-06T14:45:13Z drmeister: This was working before but the switch to tagged pointers and immediate values was pretty wrenching.
2015-06-06T14:47:08Z drmeister: Here I'm compiling cclasp with cleavir compiled using bclasp.
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2015-06-06T14:50:20Z beach: drmeister: I have guests, so I need to go.  Good luck finding the problem.
2015-06-06T14:50:25Z drmeister: The hash table is an EQUAL hash table, it has a single entry
2015-06-06T14:50:35Z drmeister: Sure, I'll sort out if it's hash tables
2015-06-06T14:50:46Z drmeister: Thank you very much for your help
2015-06-06T14:52:24Z drmeister: beach: For when you get back.  The single entry is:   (#<CLASP-CLEAVIR-HIR:NAMED-ENTER-INSTRUCTION @0x1126a9839> . #<STATIC-LEXICAL-LOCATION DEF:0 @0x116db6a19>) = #<DYNAMIC-LEXICAL-LOCATION G2769:0 @0x114ad3dd9> [remove entry]
2015-06-06T14:52:42Z drmeister: The key that is constructed for the gethash is (cons owner input)
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2015-06-06T14:53:09Z drmeister: CLEAVIR-HIR-TRANSFORMATIONS::OWNER#8 = #<CLASP-CLEAVIR-HIR:NAMED-ENTER-INSTRUCTION @0x1126a9839>
2015-06-06T14:53:29Z drmeister: CLEAVIR-HIR-TRANSFORMATIONS::INPUT#5 = #<STATIC-LEXICAL-LOCATION DEF:0 @0x116db6a19>
2015-06-06T14:53:48Z drmeister: So that should work!.
2015-06-06T14:54:00Z drmeister: There looks to be something wrong with the hash-table.
2015-06-06T14:54:12Z drmeister: Excellent - balls back in my court.
2015-06-06T14:54:36Z drmeister: I really need to get the ansi tests working.
2015-06-06T14:55:35Z drmeister: We return you to your regular #lisp channel
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2015-06-06T15:02:49Z newcup: protist: I find APL intriguing, but sadly, in the near future I have no time to contribute nor study the language even. good luck with the project though!
2015-06-06T15:05:17Z protist: newcup: thank you :)...I'm busy too...would like to see this get more mature faster, only reason I'm willing to share my toy project ;)
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2015-06-06T15:15:15Z elderK: Hey guys
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2015-06-06T15:18:10Z smokeink: hey
2015-06-06T15:19:14Z Jordan_: In SBCL, is it possible to convert *standard-output* to a byte stream?
2015-06-06T15:20:12Z Jordan_: Specifically, I would like to write a Chrome extension that communicates with a cl host program through their native messaging API
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2015-06-06T15:21:03Z Jordan_: Which communicates through stdin and stdout as byte streams
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2015-06-06T15:22:37Z eudoxia: Jordan_: http://quickdocs.org/chrome-native-messaging/api
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2015-06-06T15:22:59Z elderK: guys, if I define a constant within an eval-when (:compile ..), will the constant defined be visible to the code after it's loaded/executed?
2015-06-06T15:23:08Z elderK: Just trying to work about SBCLs treatment of defconstant.
2015-06-06T15:23:19Z Jordan_: eudoxia: Wow, can't believe I missed that. Thanks
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2015-06-06T15:24:11Z eudoxia: Jordan_: i found it by accident just a while ago
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2015-06-06T15:42:31Z beach: drmeister: Congratulations to finding the problem.
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2015-06-06T15:53:24Z drmeister: beach: I haven't found the solution yet.  But that particular hash table has it's only value in the wrong bucket - weird.  This is with the Boehm garbage collector so objects aren't moving around.  I'm still trying to track it down.
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2015-06-06T15:53:31Z drmeister: its
2015-06-06T15:54:37Z elderK: Guys, what's the accepted way of NOT having SBCL redefine constants over and over?
2015-06-06T15:54:50Z elderK: I've seen the macro - define-constant - in their manual.
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2015-06-06T15:59:16Z elderK: Also, guys, if I have defclass blablabla befor ea bunch of defconstants,
2015-06-06T15:59:32Z elderK: hmm.
2015-06-06T15:59:42Z elderK: this: I'm defining a class befor ea set of defconstants.
2015-06-06T15:59:57Z elderK: But the defconstant forms are giving me errors - apparently the new class isn't visible to them.
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2015-06-06T16:01:38Z elderK: Aaaah.
2015-06-06T16:01:41Z elderK: eval-when to the rescue.
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2015-06-06T16:03:41Z H4ns: elderK: are you sure that you want to use a class definition in a constant initialization?
2015-06-06T16:04:11Z elderK: I think I am?
2015-06-06T16:04:30Z elderK: The class in this case hsould never be modified.
2015-06-06T16:04:36Z elderK: And I want instances of hte class to be the constants.
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2015-06-06T16:05:10Z H4ns: elderK: you're defining a constant's value to be what, an instance of the class?  the class instance itself? something else?
2015-06-06T16:05:40Z H4ns: elderK: defconstant only properly works for objects that can be compared using eql, which is not the case for class instances.
2015-06-06T16:05:43Z elderK: An instance of the class.
2015-06-06T16:05:58Z elderK: Nuts :(
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2015-06-06T16:07:10Z H4ns: i don't mean to say that your program cannot work.  it is just that if your're evaluating the same defconstant form twice, say from within slime, your lisp will probably warn you that you're redefining a constant to hold a different value
2015-06-06T16:07:11Z nyef: ... is not the case for MOST class instances. See also MAKE-LOAD-FORM.
2015-06-06T16:07:49Z H4ns: it is safer to not use defconstant except for primitive types that can be compared with eql.  defvar and defparameter are suitable for other objects.
2015-06-06T16:08:04Z failproofshark: hello
2015-06-06T16:10:06Z elderK: Is the *bla* convention used only for naming special variables?
2015-06-06T16:10:08Z elderK: Or just any kind of global?
2015-06-06T16:10:21Z H4ns: elderK: it is used for all special variables.
2015-06-06T16:10:42Z elderK: and +bla+ for constants, correct?
2015-06-06T16:11:01Z H4ns: elderK: right.
2015-06-06T16:11:11Z elderK: No special decorations for general globals?
2015-06-06T16:11:24Z H4ns: what is a "general global"?
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2015-06-06T16:13:03Z JuanDaugherty guess *stuff*
2015-06-06T16:13:08Z JuanDaugherty: *guesses
2015-06-06T16:14:04Z elderK: Just a normal global variable :)
2015-06-06T16:14:18Z H4ns: elderK: how would you define such a variable?
2015-06-06T16:14:22Z elderK: Nothing is special about it other than that it is a global variable.
2015-06-06T16:14:42Z H4ns: you need to learn what "special" means in this context.
2015-06-06T16:14:46Z elderK: Yes, I do.
2015-06-06T16:14:54Z elderK: I'm going to go off an dread about specials.
2015-06-06T16:15:08Z nyef: Heh. "dread about specials". (-:
2015-06-06T16:15:36Z elderK: :P
2015-06-06T16:15:37Z elderK: :)
2015-06-06T16:15:41Z elderK: BBS! :)
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2015-06-06T16:19:32Z drmeister: Oh sh*t - the problem just went away and all I did was insert debugging code.
2015-06-06T16:19:36Z drmeister: Grrrrr
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2015-06-06T16:21:31Z drmeister: All my tests of EQUAL hash-tables worked perfectly.
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2015-06-06T16:25:29Z smokeink: compiled opencv with debugging symbols but there are still no symbols available for that backtrace
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2015-06-06T16:26:39Z nyef: drmeister: Ugh. A heisenbug?
2015-06-06T16:27:34Z drmeister: Perhaps.  I did a little rearranging that I thought wouldn't change the function at all.
2015-06-06T16:28:10Z smokeink checked that it was really compiled with the -g flag: readelf --debug-dump=decodedline libopencv_contrib.so
2015-06-06T16:28:27Z nyef: It's things like that that make me so grateful for source control.
2015-06-06T16:29:00Z nyef: "I didn't think that this would change its behavior!" Okay, now, given that it did, what's going on?
2015-06-06T16:32:17Z drmeister: I think it's time to make clean and make all and then see what happens.
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2015-06-06T16:36:07Z drmeister: The bug is back - the hunt is on.
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2015-06-06T16:43:46Z dhardison: i'm working on a lisp(ish) app and i'm trying to understand the scope of a variable i've defined outside using (def active-piece -1)
2015-06-06T16:44:12Z dhardison: so it looks like i'm seeing the value in a block of code but i want to update the value and that does not happen -- should i use def again or let?
2015-06-06T16:44:55Z nyef: "def" doesn't look like a standard form for defining anything.
2015-06-06T16:45:25Z dhardison: i see.. maybe it's pertaining to the language i'm using then -- thank you
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2015-06-06T16:49:01Z aeth: dhardison: which Lisp are you using? def might be Clojure or Arc. #lisp is for Common Lisp
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2015-06-06T16:55:31Z dhardison: aeth: clojure - i just jumped into that channel a moment ago and found the answer thanks so much
2015-06-06T16:56:04Z pjb: protist: is it named clapl?  It has a nice sound to it :-)
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2015-06-06T17:40:34Z protist: pjb: no name yet, but that has been suggested once before :)
2015-06-06T17:40:47Z protist: pjb: it does sound nice :)
2015-06-06T17:41:10Z protist: pjb: or CL-APL ... still reads nice letter by letter
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2015-06-06T20:17:02Z drmeister: I have a question about CLHS 18.1.2 Modifying Hash Table Keys
2015-06-06T20:17:30Z drmeister: What is normally done if a key of a HASH-TABLE :test #'EQUAL is modified?
2015-06-06T20:17:44Z |3b|: clhs 18.1.2
2015-06-06T20:17:45Z specbot: Modifying Hash Table Keys: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/18_ab.htm
2015-06-06T20:18:12Z drmeister: Right - it says the consequences are unspecified.
2015-06-06T20:18:56Z drmeister: Is the idea the keys are not supposed to be modified after they go into a hash table?
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2015-06-06T20:19:19Z drmeister: Because I think they are being modified in this bug that I've been tracking down all day.
2015-06-06T20:19:34Z |3b| would guess it is just ignored, so unpredictable behavior
2015-06-06T20:20:00Z |3b|: for example i wouldn't be surprised if it would fail to find it until next GC or similar
2015-06-06T20:20:12Z |3b|: or always fail or always succeed
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2015-06-06T20:22:05Z mea-culpa: What is a wise way to have a two-way mapping between symbols 'a through 'z and corresponding order numbers in the alphabet?
2015-06-06T20:24:12Z drmeister: Hmm, maybe I'm calculating the hash incorrectly.  It looks like too much is going on for a hash of (cons standard-object-A . standard-object-B)  It should just use the addresses of the two objects. ...
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2015-06-06T20:26:19Z p_l: clhs equal
2015-06-06T20:26:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_equal.htm
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2015-06-06T20:28:28Z p_l: drmeister: if I understand correctly, standard-objects (except for strings, pathnames, bitvectors) have EQUAL use EQ anyway, which afaik uses object identity (address)
2015-06-06T20:29:19Z p_l: so... sxhash of two addresses?
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2015-06-06T20:33:23Z drmeister: p_l: I think that's my problem.  I made some changes to my hashing code recently to support tagged pointers and immediate values.  EQUAL hashing seems to be behaving more like EQUALP hashing wrt standard-objects.  Checking...
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2015-06-06T20:39:19Z drmeister: Yes, that was the problem.  The different hashing functions were defaulting to the most general hashing function.  That led to behavior that was essentially EQUALP for everything.  Wow, how did anything work?
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2015-06-06T20:40:31Z drmeister: make clean; make all - try again
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2015-06-06T20:43:09Z p_l: :)
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2015-06-06T20:43:47Z k-stz`: I'm looking for a documentation of sbcl's DISASSEMBLE output. Idea: learn cl declarations by seeing their immediate effect in assembly
2015-06-06T20:43:51Z p_l: drmeister: I'm reminded a bit of someone porting Plan9 to lguest hypervisor on linux and somehow managing to reach I think login prompt before failing due to lack of interrupt handling :)
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2015-06-06T20:47:23Z k-stz`: GDB disassemble is quite readable, not so sbcl's
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2015-06-06T20:48:06Z nyef: k-stz`: Is it that it's not readable, or that you don't know how to read it?
2015-06-06T20:49:00Z nyef: k-stz`: Also, at least historically, using DISASSEMBLE tends to omit function prologue sequences, which can be fairly involved at times. You may want to use SB-DISASSEM:DISASSEMBLE-CODE-COMPONENT if you want to see them.
2015-06-06T20:50:10Z Ukari: how to change or cancel send a network package  in lisp?
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2015-06-06T20:56:32Z edgar-rft: Ukari: There is no built-in network stuff in Common Lisp. What network library are you using?
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2015-06-06T20:58:41Z Ukari: edgar-rft:i haven't use any network library in lisp but only one 'ip-interfaces'
2015-06-06T20:59:16Z |3b|: Ukari: which lisp are you using?
2015-06-06T20:59:41Z Ukari: |3b|:slime with sbcl
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2015-06-06T21:00:45Z |3b|: actually, can you even cancel sending a packet in bsd sockets APIs in general?
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2015-06-06T21:01:21Z |3b| isn't sure you can do more than just kill an open tcp connection, and not sure that would even prevent buffered data from sending first
2015-06-06T21:04:10Z Ukari: |3b|:oh...thank you for answer
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2015-06-06T21:05:14Z |3b| isn't saying you definitely can't, just that finding out how to do it at the OS/C API level might be easier, and should apply to lisp using those APIs
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2015-06-06T21:22:28Z k-stz`: nyef: thanks, am tinkering with that. I'm trying to get the same output as with C code (guess that's unreasonable), or atleast get it to use the 32bit registers (declare (fixnum )) (?). But seems to work fine the addresses seem to be just represented as plain numbers with no % $ syntax
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2015-06-06T21:23:06Z nyef: Ah, right. Yes, SBCL prefers intel syntax for its assembler.
2015-06-06T21:23:23Z nyef: Well, disassembler.
2015-06-06T21:23:46Z nyef: And, more generally, the disassembler is designed as a generic component for all architectures, and isn't really meant for feeding the output directly into another tool.
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2015-06-06T21:36:16Z schjetne: Someone told me SBCL disassembly looked like really crufty Microsoft assembly, whatever that means.
2015-06-06T21:37:26Z nyef: schjetne: It means "the actual STANDARD assembly for Intel CPUs".
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2015-06-06T21:42:27Z schjetne: That someone was utterly loopy to say the least
2015-06-06T21:42:40Z schjetne: At least in matters other than computing
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2015-06-06T21:52:28Z Ralt: why isn't the output of disassemble the *actual* output?
2015-06-06T21:52:44Z Ralt: i.e. if compiled on an intel, output the intel assembly, etc.
2015-06-06T21:53:17Z nyef: That's the point: It is, for the most part.
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2015-06-06T21:53:32Z nyef: It's all of the GNU tools that much about with weird assembly syntaxes.
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2015-06-06T21:55:09Z |3b|: there is no "actual" output other than what a particular tool produces
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2015-06-06T21:56:03Z |3b|: it is disssembled by sbcl, so it produces sbcl's output (which happens to be similar to what some other tools would produce, and different from what other tools would produce, given same input octets)
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2015-06-06T21:57:06Z |3b|: should it give different output on windows and linux if the default tools on those platforms have different syntax?
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2015-06-06T22:36:09Z ruut: What editor/ide do you guys use for Lisp development?
2015-06-06T22:36:38Z nyef: emacs
2015-06-06T22:37:49Z pjb: emacs+slime+paredit
2015-06-06T22:38:00Z nyef: Oh yes. Definitely use paredit.
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2015-06-06T22:42:54Z Brozo: emacs
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2015-06-06T22:45:01Z p_l: Emacs+SLIME. Occasional weird moments of ZMacs
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2015-06-06T22:56:15Z cluck: what pjb said (though the fanboy in me would love to run zmacs if genera wasn't closed and proprietary to hell)
2015-06-06T22:56:28Z pjb: muut is gone long ago.
2015-06-06T22:56:43Z pjb: And anyways, what more than http://cliki.net/Getting+Started did he hope to learn here???
2015-06-06T22:56:44Z nf7: what is zmacs?
2015-06-06T22:56:51Z pjb: The emacs of genera.
2015-06-06T22:57:14Z nf7: what is that
2015-06-06T22:57:41Z oleo: genera was a lisp-machine ?
2015-06-06T22:57:52Z nf7: oh
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2015-06-06T22:59:46Z nf7: For what reason do people make different versions of Emacs, do they just not agree with the directiont that GNU Emacs is going in? Don't they all just die eventually?
2015-06-06T23:00:06Z p_l: nf7: emacs is older than GNU emacs
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2015-06-06T23:00:57Z nf7: right
2015-06-06T23:01:10Z p_l: out of major forks, XEmacs started out due to dispute between FSF and Lucid on incorporating patches from Lucid, iirc, and till Emacs ~v21 it definitely held first place in many areas of progress
2015-06-06T23:01:44Z p_l: I believe XEmacs is also the core of old Sun Studio IDE
2015-06-06T23:01:51Z nf7: Ok, what changed that GNU Emacs all of a sudden became the leader?
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2015-06-06T23:02:16Z p_l: nf7: XEmacs languished while GNU Emacs woke up and started releasing
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2015-06-06T23:03:04Z pjb: nf7: what changed is that unix won over!
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2015-06-06T23:03:27Z pjb: nf7: before the 90s there were tens of _different_ operating systems.
2015-06-06T23:03:27Z p_l: nf7: which led to classic snowball effect as more people started coding for GNU Emacs in ways incompatible with XEmacs, further widening the gap :)
2015-06-06T23:03:34Z p_l: and what pjb said
2015-06-06T23:03:47Z p_l: GNU Emacs used to support several of them quite recently, too
2015-06-06T23:04:38Z pjb: But there are also emacsen written in different languages.  GNU emacs has two big inconvenient for a developer: it's written in C, and it's written in emacs lisp.  We'd prefer an emacs written entirely in Common Lisp.  Schemer have an emacs entirely written in scheme (edwin).  Etc.
2015-06-06T23:05:54Z Kooda: And now there is Guile Emacs too
2015-06-06T23:05:56Z p_l: right now you pretty much have a bunch of mostly compatible unices (so long as your application isn't hopelessly linux-centric), systemd, windows, OSX&co, and in niche areas there's z/OS, VMS, OS/400, bunch of semi-POSIX-compatible embedded OSes
2015-06-06T23:07:22Z p_l: I guess Android counts as another OS as well
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2015-06-06T23:09:35Z nf7: Interesting. So why is GNU Emacs not written completely in Lisp? Will it ever be?
2015-06-06T23:11:20Z k-stz`: there is climacs
2015-06-06T23:11:28Z p_l: nf7: historical reasons, though I heard that some of it is legacy of certain politics by RMS. Most of it is written in elisp anyway
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2015-06-06T23:13:02Z fourier: any reasons why Lispworks editor has a closed source? And if I as a owner of the Lispworks would like to publish my modifications, how could I do that?
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2015-06-06T23:17:51Z p_l: fourier: do they include source for their lisp compiler and runtime? AFAIK not, and it probably falls under the same license...
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2015-06-07T00:55:44Z cluck: to be fair GNU emacs won over because it is free/libre software and all code is legally freely distributable
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2015-06-07T00:56:22Z cluck: (put down the pitchforks, i'm armed with historic facts)
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2015-06-07T00:58:09Z cluck: also genera isn't a lisp machine, it's a lisp machine Operating System (which happens to be able to run atop a VM since before virtual machines were cool)
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2015-06-07T00:58:16Z nyef: ... pitchforks are more useful than historic facts if you're trying to inflict grievous bodily harm, though.
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2015-06-07T00:58:52Z wbooze: jep, but many refer to it as lisp-machine somehow.....
2015-06-07T00:59:42Z cluck: nyef: tell that to the queen and ask her how she liked getting her ass handed to her by gandhi and his non violent movement :P
2015-06-07T01:01:12Z nyef: And... non-violence inflicts grievous bodily harm... how?
2015-06-07T01:01:37Z cluck: wbooze: because the VM runs lisp like microcode
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2015-06-07T01:02:15Z nyef: No... the VM runs lisp-like macrocode.
2015-06-07T01:02:22Z wbooze: lol
2015-06-07T01:02:28Z cluck: nyef: butt hurt, lots and lots of butt hurt :)
2015-06-07T01:02:30Z wbooze: there you go....hahahaha
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2015-06-07T01:05:43Z cluck: (not to ruin the joke but there's actually plenty of research published in reputable publishers documenting how emotional pain is perceived by the brain as actual physical pain)
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2015-06-07T01:15:33Z Zhivago: Genera is a hipster OS. :)
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2015-06-07T01:18:44Z cluck: Zhivago: except these hipsters came from the '60s/'70s, had engineering degrees or CS PhDs and were funded by the military
2015-06-07T01:19:00Z cluck: i'd hang out with that kind of hipster
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2015-06-07T01:26:27Z Zhivago: Super-hipsters. Hip before it was hip to be hip.
2015-06-07T01:26:40Z Zhivago: Fortunately they're mostly dead, otherwise it might be disillusioning.
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2015-06-07T01:27:01Z Zhivago: I suspect the unavailability of Genera accounts for its popularity, to be honest.
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2015-06-07T01:45:43Z wbooze: oh man, how do you merge output-records.....
2015-06-07T01:45:58Z wbooze: feep
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2015-06-07T02:06:10Z SolarNRG: know of any good lisp proper noob 101 tutorials?
2015-06-07T02:08:17Z cluck: Zhivago: well.. it's not that it's unavailable (after all the pirate bay never goes down for long) just that it's illegal to use it and build on it
2015-06-07T02:09:10Z cluck: ,books
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2015-06-07T02:10:37Z JuanDaugherty: is disillusioning a bad thing?
2015-06-07T02:10:59Z kristof: no, knowledge is power
2015-06-07T02:11:13Z JuanDaugherty: k, thought so, just checking
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2015-06-07T02:15:59Z theos: cluck "broken heart" is an actual thing
2015-06-07T02:16:51Z Fare: theos, :-)
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2015-06-07T04:23:10Z kami`: Good morning.
2015-06-07T04:23:22Z Brozo: good evening
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2015-06-07T06:22:00Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-06-07T06:36:15Z fourier: morning!
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2015-06-07T06:37:18Z emaczen: Inside a macro I have a symbol that appears as the list argument to 3 mapcar forms
2015-06-07T06:37:37Z emaczen: I wish to "add" to this symbol
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2015-06-07T06:38:06Z emaczen: Since it is inside a macro, it only expands and does not "set" a place
2015-06-07T06:38:31Z emaczen: Is there a technique in which a prior form can expand earlier thus effecting subsequent forms?
2015-06-07T06:38:48Z emaczen: effected subsequent forms BEFORE they expand
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2015-06-07T06:39:57Z Zhivago: A macro contains and translates its content ...
2015-06-07T06:40:11Z Zhivago: If by 'prior' you mean 'containing', then that is straight-forward.
2015-06-07T06:40:38Z Zhivago: Otherwise you could produce a side-effect in the expander, but this may be limited to the compilation environment.
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2015-06-07T06:41:22Z emaczen: Zhivago: The immediate solution to my problem right now would be to add (append my-symbol (new-form)) in the 3 mapcar forms -- hence repeating myself a lot.
2015-06-07T06:42:04Z emaczen: I could eliminate repeating myself by "setting" this symbol before the mapcar forms are expanded
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2015-06-07T06:43:49Z ggole: Avoiding repetition in the implementation of a macro is pretty much the same problem as avoiding repetition in the implementation of a function.
2015-06-07T06:44:31Z ggole: In short, use a let binding, function, or a macro where those can't do the job.
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2015-06-07T06:47:04Z Zhivago: I guess a symbol-macrolet wouldn't do the trick?
2015-06-07T06:47:23Z emaczen: What does a symbol-macrolet do differntly?
2015-06-07T06:47:42Z emaczen: Then a regular let form at the beginning of my macro
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2015-06-07T06:54:47Z uroybd: Hi!
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2015-06-07T09:54:09Z smokeink: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149148#4 it's looks like my opencv problem has something to do with the smart pointer Ptr
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2015-06-07T13:21:29Z p_l: http://ml.cddddr.org/slug/msg07770.html <-- interesting...
2015-06-07T13:24:39Z nyef: Believable. Very believable.
2015-06-07T13:26:16Z someon is now known as someone
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2015-06-07T13:47:36Z p_l: How relocatable are lisp implementations other than ECL?
2015-06-07T13:48:26Z nyef: "Relocatable" in what sense?
2015-06-07T13:48:46Z p_l: memory relocation - no dependency on fixed addresses
2015-06-07T13:48:51Z nyef: Ah.
2015-06-07T13:49:15Z nyef: SBCL on non-x86oids could be made to be fairly relocatable, I suppose.
2015-06-07T13:49:37Z p_l: nyef: I used to use a patch for SBCL that made it relocatable on x86 :)
2015-06-07T13:50:03Z nyef: Oh, was that lichtblau's relocatable-cores thing?
2015-06-07T13:51:31Z nyef: That didn't relocate static-space or read-only-space, did it?
2015-06-07T13:52:15Z p_l: it explicitly relocated core, iirc
2015-06-07T13:52:26Z p_l: (used to run on machine that didn't allow non-relocatable executables to run)
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2015-06-07T13:58:25Z drmeister: Hello.
2015-06-07T13:58:43Z nyef: Hello drmeister.
2015-06-07T13:59:58Z drmeister: nyef - my bug yesterday was and wasn't a Heisenberg it had to do with hashing.
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2015-06-07T14:00:09Z drmeister: Anyway, it's fixed now.
2015-06-07T14:00:26Z p_l: nyef: the reason is that I'd like to use Lisp inside Chrome's NaCL (or better, PNaCL, but that would mean only ECL or maaaybe Clasp)
2015-06-07T14:01:05Z nyef: drmeister: Mmm. I saw that you were asking about mutating keys after they were in a hash table.
2015-06-07T14:01:16Z nyef: p_l: Isn't NaCL an emacs common lisp of some sort?
2015-06-07T14:01:37Z p_l: nyef: no, Chrome's NaCL is essentially a sandbox without syscalls etc.
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2015-06-07T14:02:52Z drmeister: Yeah - it turned out the keys were mutating but the hash table was EQUAL on a CONS of two standard objects.   The bug was my hashing function was traversing into the standard objects to calculate the hash.  Essentially it was doing EQUALP rather than EQUAL.
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2015-06-07T14:03:17Z drmeister: I had rearranged the hashing functions when I added immediate fixnums/characters/single-floats
2015-06-07T14:03:23Z drmeister: and broke them.
2015-06-07T14:04:09Z drmeister: p_l: That sounds exciting.  I'd love to run Clasp in NaCL.
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2015-06-07T14:16:13Z p_l: hmm, the ECL patches for Android and NaCL don't look too big
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2015-06-07T14:44:54Z telewest: [FREE NULLEDWEBSITE SCRIPTS] Website Worth Calculator, SEO Analyzer+PDF Generator, Ajax Star Reviews all at --> http://goo.gl/JuyUPj
2015-06-07T14:44:56Z telewest: [FREE NULLEDWEBSITE SCRIPTS] Website Worth Calculator, SEO Analyzer+PDF Generator, Ajax Star Reviews all at --> http://goo.gl/JuyUPj
2015-06-07T14:45:15Z telewest: [FREE NULLEDWEBSITE SCRIPTS] Website Worth Calculator, SEO Analyzer+PDF Generator, Ajax Star Reviews all at --> http://goo.gl/JuyUPj
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2015-06-07T14:47:59Z Zhivago: They're obviously licking the bottom of the barrel.
2015-06-07T14:49:58Z ChanServ has set mode +o p_l
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2015-06-07T14:52:24Z p_l: and I think we are out of free space on banlist
2015-06-07T14:53:07Z theos: we can always ban by country :P
2015-06-07T14:53:22Z p_l: theos: I'd rather enable forced registration then
2015-06-07T14:54:18Z p_l has set mode -b *!~qicruser@77-57-2-147.dclient.hispeed.ch
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2015-06-07T14:55:56Z nyef: For some of these things, it seems like a server-side content filter as a trigger for an automatic ban (from the server) would help a lot.
2015-06-07T14:56:42Z p_l: if I change a bunch of bans into a ban of all of SoCal, we could probably get some free space
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2015-06-07T15:16:11Z theos: p_l we can allow only identified users to talk. that will create a lot of space on the banlist
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2015-06-07T15:47:51Z oleo_: hello
2015-06-07T15:48:03Z oleo_: when i give say random an argument of 255
2015-06-07T15:48:23Z oleo_: like in (random 255) but wanna make sure i get values above say 10 how do i proceed ?
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2015-06-07T15:49:58Z Kooda: Add 10 to the result?
2015-06-07T15:50:14Z nyef: (+ 10 (random (- 255 10))) ?
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2015-06-07T15:51:53Z oleo_: no
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2015-06-07T15:52:07Z oleo_: oh wait
2015-06-07T15:52:24Z oleo_: but what if i got 255 from random and i added 10 to it ?
2015-06-07T15:52:35Z Bike: that's what the -10 is for.
2015-06-07T15:52:42Z oleo_: ah
2015-06-07T15:52:46Z oleo_: ok i see now
2015-06-07T15:52:47Z oleo_: thank you
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2015-06-07T16:10:49Z beach: Good evening everyone!
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2015-06-07T16:11:26Z Fare: good afternoon!
2015-06-07T16:11:52Z p_l: http://ml.cddddr.org/slug/msg07519.html <--- huh o_O
2015-06-07T16:11:58Z p_l: interesting approach to UDP programming
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2015-06-07T16:13:49Z nyef: Hello beach, Fare.
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2015-06-07T16:34:26Z alladia: quicklisp questions on topic here?
2015-06-07T16:35:02Z alladia: I get  this error on dis.lispError: No package exists of name ASDF/FIND-SYSTEM.
2015-06-07T16:35:17Z alladia: dist.lisp when loading setup.lisp on acl
2015-06-07T16:36:18Z nyef: That sounds like a Xach question.
2015-06-07T16:36:30Z beach: Old ASDF version maybe?
2015-06-07T16:36:44Z nyef: Doesn't quicklisp automatically update?
2015-06-07T16:37:04Z nyef: The odd bit is ASDF/FIND-SYSTEM. I'd've thought it'd be ASDF:FIND-SYSTEM.
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2015-06-07T16:37:15Z beach: Hmm.
2015-06-07T16:37:25Z nyef: Except then it's supposedly a package-name...
2015-06-07T16:37:28Z beach: I guess I should stay out of it, since I don't know.
2015-06-07T16:37:54Z nyef: Same here, hence trying to redirect it to Xach, if he's around, since he really should know.
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2015-06-07T16:38:06Z nyef: (Or, failing that, really should be informed about.)
2015-06-07T16:38:42Z beach: No, I have ASDF/FIND-SYSTEM:FIND-SYSTEM here and it is fbound.
2015-06-07T16:39:00Z nyef: Fair enough, then.
2015-06-07T16:39:22Z nyef: I try not to have anything to do with ASDF these days if I can avoid it, so the package structure is a complete unknown to me. (-:
2015-06-07T16:39:46Z beach: What do you have against ASDF?
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2015-06-07T16:41:00Z nyef: A feeling of general ickyness that dates back to, well, before asdf-install was deprecated.
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2015-06-07T16:42:35Z nyef: It's almost certainly vastly improved by now, eight to ten years later, but I haven't taken the time to sit down and re-evaluate it.
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2015-06-07T16:43:41Z beach: You don't feel you need it?
2015-06-07T16:44:43Z nyef: At work I certainly don't. Wrote my own build system to support one-package-per-file style years ago. ASDF's package-inferred-system or whatever it's called is based on that.
2015-06-07T16:46:07Z nyef: And I haven't been doing much recreational lisping recently, and when I have it's either been short fragments in a single file or in the context of an existing build system (such as SBCL's build process).
2015-06-07T16:46:28Z nyef: Currently my recreational lisp time is still being absorbed by Linux kernel hacking.
2015-06-07T16:47:17Z beach: I see.
2015-06-07T16:47:18Z nyef: (Good news: I'm almost at a good stopping place on that. Bad news: I seem to be getting more involved in the rest of the infrastructure around these machines.)
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2015-06-07T16:53:48Z beach: Perhaps you could combine things by putting more Common Lisp into Linux.
2015-06-07T16:54:12Z beach: Don't ask me exactly how.  There would be several possible ways I guess.
2015-06-07T16:55:16Z nyef: Well, the main point here is to have a suitable build platform for SBCL.
2015-06-07T16:55:31Z nyef: At least, that's why I started working with these machines in the first place.
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2015-06-07T16:55:56Z beach: But your interest seems to change.
2015-06-07T16:56:19Z nyef: It varies over time, yes.
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2015-06-07T17:04:55Z Fare: asdf/find-system is part of asdf
2015-06-07T17:05:06Z Fare: asdf uses package-inferred-system style
2015-06-07T17:05:35Z Fare: even though it doesn't actually rely on it, for bootstrap purposes.
2015-06-07T17:10:01Z beach: So do you think my guess is right that alladia has an old version of ASDF?
2015-06-07T17:11:57Z pjb: emaczen: your macro problem is probably a hint that you should rewrite it as a function.
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2015-06-07T17:14:02Z Fare: looks like an asdf downgrade somehow?
2015-06-07T17:14:24Z Fare: or something compiled with asdf 3, but trying to load it with asdf 2?
2015-06-07T17:15:43Z Fare: nyef: do you do lisp in the kernel?
2015-06-07T17:16:04Z Fare: rust looks like a good language to write kernel code in.
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2015-06-07T17:17:12Z nyef: Fare: No, I don't.
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2015-06-07T17:29:46Z pjb: Anybody knows where the source mail files for the mail lists published on ml.cddddr.org could be found?
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2015-06-07T17:30:21Z pjb: (I still prefer to read mails with gnus than with a web browser…)
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2015-06-07T17:33:58Z digiorgi: Anybody uses coleslaw, if so... you know how to enable syntax highlighting?
2015-06-07T17:34:27Z pjb: M-x font-lock-mode RET ?  I don't know.
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2015-06-07T17:43:05Z emaczen: http://paste.lisp.org/+37A1. -- Question about symbol-macrolet and expanding a symbol for remaining use in the macro.
2015-06-07T17:43:27Z emaczen: Let me know if you have any questions
2015-06-07T17:44:22Z pjb: emaczen: your symbol-macrolet defines a symbol macrolet for run-time, not for macroexpansion time, of your test-class macro.
2015-06-07T17:44:48Z emaczen: Yes this is what I discovered
2015-06-07T17:45:19Z emaczen: Is there a similar let-binding form that will expand at compile time?
2015-06-07T17:45:38Z pjb: Don't put symbol-macrolet in the `!
2015-06-07T17:46:20Z pjb: (let ((a 42)) `(list ,a)) vs.  `(let ((a 42)) (list a))
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2015-06-07T17:47:31Z emaczen: pjb: wow... thanks
2015-06-07T17:47:48Z emaczen: I kept it as symbol-macrolet and got a control stack error earlier.
2015-06-07T17:47:58Z emaczen: But that makes sense to me as well
2015-06-07T17:48:04Z pjb: There's no point in using a symbol-macrolet
2015-06-07T17:48:12Z pjb: (let ((fields (append fields '(a b)))) `…)
2015-06-07T17:48:37Z pjb: emaczen: remember: macros are normal functions!
2015-06-07T17:48:42Z oleo: http://www.picpaste.com/pics/graphs.1433696521.png
2015-06-07T17:49:09Z pjb: You could write: (defun generate-test-class (name fields) …) (defmacro test-class (name fields) (generate-test-class name fields))  and debug generate-test-class.
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2015-06-07T18:49:24Z Shinmera: Nifty additions to Verbose and Dissect today: https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TmpNMQ==
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2015-06-07T18:58:11Z Quadrescence: Shinmera, what is this
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2015-06-07T18:59:35Z Shinmera: You'll have to be more specific than that
2015-06-07T19:00:10Z nyef: Shinmera: I believe that neither Quadrescence nor I am familiar with "verbose" or "dissect".
2015-06-07T19:00:37Z nyef: ... s/am/are/.
2015-06-07T19:00:40Z Shinmera: nyef: Dissect is a library that allows inspection of stack frames and restarts. Verbose is a logging library.
2015-06-07T19:01:05Z nyef: Hrm. So dissect is an interface to the host debugging facilities?
2015-06-07T19:01:11Z Shinmera: http://shinmera.github.io/dissect/ and http://shinmera.github.io/verbose/ respectively
2015-06-07T19:01:35Z Shinmera: It translates the available stack information into "portable" class instances.
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2015-06-07T19:01:55Z Shinmera: Which in turn allows it to produce the nice error message you're seeing in the screenshot.
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2015-06-07T19:02:30Z Shinmera: The addition I made today is the with-truncated-stack (and with-capped-stack) macro that limits the stack that's returned by dissect, which is useful because often times a lot of the information down the line is uninteresting.
2015-06-07T19:03:11Z nyef: Hmm.
2015-06-07T19:03:15Z Shinmera: For Verbose I did a bunch of cleanup and extended what you can pass directly to the various logging functions.
2015-06-07T19:04:02Z nyef: How does verbose interact with the normal condition system?
2015-06-07T19:04:12Z Shinmera: What do you mean?
2015-06-07T19:04:33Z kristof: Shinmera: Don't debugging modes allow you to inspect the stackframe already?
2015-06-07T19:05:19Z Shinmera: kristof: What do you mean by "debugging mode"?
2015-06-07T19:05:34Z kristof: I don't know, I just recall being able to click on objects in slime whenever I get exceptions
2015-06-07T19:05:42Z Shinmera: yeah, and now if you don't have slime?
2015-06-07T19:05:43Z nyef: kristof: This is for standalone operation, rather than in the context of slime and sldb, apparently.
2015-06-07T19:05:58Z kristof tilts head
2015-06-07T19:06:07Z kristof: I'll trust whatever Shinmera says.
2015-06-07T19:06:09Z Shinmera: It's mostly useful in the context where you're headless, running a server, or whatnot.
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2015-06-07T19:06:41Z nyef: So... normal situations, rather than active development?
2015-06-07T19:06:48Z Shinmera: Right.
2015-06-07T19:07:46Z kristof: Shinmera: So the libraries for programmatically analyzing the stack and then perhaps putting such information into a log file
2015-06-07T19:07:51Z kristof: *library's
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2015-06-07T19:08:07Z Shinmera: Yes, that's the gist of it.
2015-06-07T19:08:38Z kristof: Is the Lisp stack a lot easier to analyze than, say, a C stack?
2015-06-07T19:08:55Z kristof: ...I mean, a stack's a stack, but the data on a lisp stack will have tags and such.
2015-06-07T19:09:15Z Shinmera: I don't know, I haven't done much C at all.
2015-06-07T19:09:37Z Shinmera: In most implementations you have functions to traverse the stack and inspect each frame.
2015-06-07T19:09:38Z kristof: Shinmera: Oh, then how does the library get a stack frame at all? I don't know much about Lisp internals.
2015-06-07T19:10:29Z Shinmera: On SBCL f.e. you just use sb-di:top-frame and then go down with sb-di:frame-down
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2015-06-07T19:10:36Z kristof: :o
2015-06-07T19:11:09Z nyef: Please note that the implementation of those two functions might be enough to make your eyes bleed.
2015-06-07T19:12:13Z kristof: Shinmera: I gues I don't know how stack analysis is done in general. From my naive perspective, the stack is just a nice contiguous piece of memory the operating system gives you to do scratch work on, whose top the stack pointer register has the address
2015-06-07T19:12:59Z nyef: kristof: The first piece that you're missing is that the stack is broken up into arbitrarily-sized "frames", so there's also a frame pointer involved.
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2015-06-07T19:13:08Z kristof: When a function is called, you branch to the location of the first instruction, and consume the bytes on the stack in reverse order (those are your formal parameters)
2015-06-07T19:13:25Z kristof: nyef: Oh nifty. Is there a frame for each funcall?
2015-06-07T19:13:37Z nyef: Typically, although tail-calls re-use frames.
2015-06-07T19:13:48Z kristof: Oh right right. Thank you guy steel et al
2015-06-07T19:13:52Z kristof: *steele
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2015-06-07T19:15:20Z kristof: nyef: Ok, I think I can guess the rest now. On each funcall, the implementation stores in an activation record the types of things that are in that stack frame, so that when things go wrong, you can move up and down the stack and just use that record data to re-consume all the things that were passed along.
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2015-06-07T19:16:02Z nyef: Not even "when things go wrong". One of the things stored in the frame is the pointer for the previous frame.
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2015-06-07T19:16:30Z nyef: So when a function returns, it reloads that pointer, resets the stack pointer, and done. More or less.
2015-06-07T19:16:36Z nyef: There's a bit of magic for return values and whatnot.
2015-06-07T19:16:52Z kristof: nyef: Return value pointers are usually stored in a register
2015-06-07T19:16:54Z nyef: Another one is typically the address within the calling function to which to return.
2015-06-07T19:16:55Z kristof: I think
2015-06-07T19:17:05Z kristof: RXD
2015-06-07T19:17:12Z kristof: *rdx
2015-06-07T19:17:27Z nyef: kristof: SBCL only holds $n$ values in registers, for call OR return, and the remainder are passed on the stack.
2015-06-07T19:17:39Z nyef: kristof: Have a look for information on the "unknown-values" convention.
2015-06-07T19:18:19Z nyef: Also for default-unknown-values and receive-unknown-values in SYS:SRC;COMPILER;TARGET;CALL.LISP.
2015-06-07T19:18:23Z kristof: nyef: Gotcha. Okay, this has been interesting.
2015-06-07T19:18:39Z kristof: ...Maybe I should take a compiler class.
2015-06-07T19:18:48Z nyef: Eh. I never took a compiler class.
2015-06-07T19:18:58Z kristof: Well, they never covered this in my assembly class.
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2015-06-07T19:19:07Z kristof: ...I had a pretty garbage assembly class.
2015-06-07T19:19:16Z nyef: Sounds like it.
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2015-06-07T19:20:41Z nyef: My favorite implementation of default-unknown-values in SBCL is the ARM version.
2015-06-07T19:21:30Z kristof: nyef: unknown-values is for values for which there is not enough room in the registers?
2015-06-07T19:22:11Z nyef: No, it's used when there is no arrangement between caller and callee for a known number of values.
2015-06-07T19:22:18Z kristof: ok
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2015-06-07T19:22:23Z nyef: So, it's the general case.
2015-06-07T19:22:30Z kristof: variadic functions, keyword parameters, etc.
2015-06-07T19:22:38Z nyef: Right, and full calls.
2015-06-07T19:22:53Z nyef: Oh, wait, no.
2015-06-07T19:22:59Z nyef: Unknown-values is the RETURN convention.
2015-06-07T19:23:46Z nyef: All full calls allocate a new stack frame, and store any argument that can't fit in a register into that frame.
2015-06-07T19:24:16Z kristof: sure, that makes sense
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2015-06-07T19:33:08Z Quadrescence: Genera on implementing the ANSI standard https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/734346/genera-doxex.jpg
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2015-06-07T19:39:32Z p_l: Quadrescence: is that yours LispM?
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2015-06-07T19:44:50Z Quadrescence: yes
2015-06-07T19:45:15Z p_l: nice
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2015-06-07T19:45:36Z p_l: there's some talk of making a trip ~august to peter paine to get one of his 3600 into Poland :)
2015-06-07T19:45:47Z Quadrescence: fantastic
2015-06-07T19:46:23Z p_l: Still need to write a mail to symbolics-dks what is their stance on software...
2015-06-07T19:46:43Z Quadrescence: what about the software?
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2015-06-07T19:46:51Z Quadrescence: you mean him giving you a machine which has software installed
2015-06-07T19:47:25Z p_l: Quadrescence: Mr. Paine got a truckload of tapes full of LispM software
2015-06-07T19:47:39Z Quadrescence: yes, those need to be copied and archived e;)
2015-06-07T19:47:49Z p_l: I'd like to make it more accessible, including making copies on a redundant storage medium
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2015-06-07T19:48:41Z p_l: Generally, I'd love to finally arrange a form of "abandonware" status of sorts for the software where possible, with optional "professional support can be cleared through symbolics-dks"
2015-06-07T19:49:25Z Quadrescence: I am perhaps a little more dangerous than you are. If I were you, I'd get those copied ASAP, then figure out what to do after it is all done. ;)
2015-06-07T19:50:24Z p_l: Quadrescence: In my case it's more that it will be some time before me and few friends descend like locusts on the site ;)
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2015-06-07T19:50:48Z Quadrescence: should i fly out there
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2015-06-07T19:52:12Z p_l: http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/tapes.html <--- it certainly looks impressive
2015-06-07T19:52:29Z p_l: and well, I kinda want to finally find the source of VLM2 and maybe, maybe, make a better emulator than snap4 :)
2015-06-07T19:53:44Z Quadrescence: :))
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2015-06-07T19:56:37Z p_l: there's enough data to write an Ivory simulator, though
2015-06-07T19:57:01Z p_l: oh, he got Zippicalc!
2015-06-07T19:57:28Z p_l has just read the archives of the SLUG mailing list where someone asks for source so he could recompile it from 36xx to Ivory
2015-06-07T20:00:22Z nyef: Hrm... An Ivory simulator, huh? Can we build one into a 68k Mac emulator?
2015-06-07T20:01:35Z nyef: Now, if only we had a similar collection of tapes for the TI systems... (-:
2015-06-07T20:03:21Z p_l: nyef: well, if someone made a m68k mac emulator structured similarly to klh10... :P
2015-06-07T20:04:04Z p_l: though MacIvory would be not that different from VLM2 - in fact, cursory look suggests that VLM2 is more independent than MacIvory o_O
2015-06-07T20:04:06Z nyef: Not going there. Don't have the time, and the last time I tried to write a 68k simulator had some fairly horrific results.
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2015-06-07T20:05:25Z p_l: haha
2015-06-07T20:05:38Z nyef: (Heh. "Don't have the time." And what do I have open in emacs right now? The start of a Linux real-time clock driver for some hardware that I want to run SBCL on.)
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2015-06-07T20:06:26Z cheryllium: Does anyone know how to kill processes create by sb-ext:run-program on windows? The function sb-ext:process-kill does not exist, presumably because I'm using windows and not a unix system.
2015-06-07T20:06:29Z p_l: nyef: in general, MacIvory appears to be essentially a bit like VLM2, except that it has several hw services provided through SunRPC calls over emb-channel to the life support application
2015-06-07T20:06:59Z cheryllium: I tried to call "taskkill" using sb-ext:run-program (dirty solution, i know) but that failed with an error: "Couldn't execute "taskkill": Interrupted function call"
2015-06-07T20:07:05Z p_l: cheryllium: you might need to use sb-alien/CFFI to call apropriate NT function
2015-06-07T20:07:52Z pjb: yes, what p_l said.  Read the MS-Windows developer documentation at microsoft.com it's not too bad.
2015-06-07T20:08:10Z cheryllium: Okay, thank you for pointing me in the right direction, I will research that now
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2015-06-07T20:09:45Z p_l: MSDN docs are quite thorough once you do a deep dive into them
2015-06-07T20:10:06Z p_l strongly suspects the typical issue with many a program on Win32 is "never read the official system docs"
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2015-06-07T20:11:50Z cheryllium: To be fair, I would expect SBCL to have support for killing processes on windows...
2015-06-07T20:12:01Z cheryllium: Maybe I expect too much of the world :P
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2015-06-07T20:12:31Z nyef: SBCL on windows doesn't get nearly enough love.
2015-06-07T20:13:29Z p_l: meanwhile, something I just spent a bit of time to get running again https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9540080/screenshots/yui/2015-06-07_20%3A10_1366x768.png
2015-06-07T20:13:42Z p_l: (because today I somehow broke the previous build
2015-06-07T20:13:43Z p_l: )
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2015-06-07T20:14:00Z p_l: the 409 MW of memory must be cushy :D
2015-06-07T20:14:24Z nyef: p_l: Is that actually running on an Alpha?
2015-06-07T20:14:34Z cheryllium: Do you have any idea what is causing the taskkill error though?
2015-06-07T20:14:40Z p_l: nyef: unfortunately not, I no longer have an Alpha, and the emulators are useless
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2015-06-07T20:14:58Z p_l: cheryllium: I suspect something in the call to spawn it (possibly permission issue?)
2015-06-07T20:15:04Z nyef: Heh. Of course the emulators are useless. Why wouldn't they be?
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2015-06-07T20:15:32Z cheryllium: Hmm, I am running as administrator, so it's probably not permissions. My guess is that somehow the signal sent out by taskkill is being intercepted by SBCL (not sure if that makes much sense though)
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2015-06-07T20:16:49Z p_l: nyef: well, to be specific, there are emulators, but they are a) pricey b) slow (unless paid for) c) take a lot of resources d) I need an OSF/1 install disk which I do not have e) I'd need a VNC for OSF/1 because it's modern X.Org that breaks Genera's Save World
2015-06-07T20:17:55Z cheryllium: Also, could anyone point me to documentation on sb-ext:process? I found a list of functions for it in the sbcl manual but nothing that actually describes the structure itself
2015-06-07T20:18:09Z nyef: Hmm. And blowing the dust off of my old Alpha emulator is similarly a waste of time at this point...
2015-06-07T20:18:28Z nyef: cheryllium: Have you tried looking at the source?
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2015-06-07T20:18:38Z p_l: nyef: well, the principal missing thing is still d) and e)
2015-06-07T20:18:50Z p_l: there are emulators that work well enough
2015-06-07T20:19:00Z p_l ran a VMS cluster using those
2015-06-07T20:19:06Z cheryllium: nyef: I have not, I will if no documentation exists. I do wish lisp developers would recognize the importance of documentation more though...
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2015-06-07T20:20:29Z nyef: p_l: Actually, speaking of Alpha hardware, I have an API CS20, but I don't have the drive mounting kit for it. Do you have any idea where I might be able to find such a thing?
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2015-06-07T20:22:58Z p_l: hmm, hard to say nowadays
2015-06-07T20:23:08Z cheryllium: Welp, downloading sbcl source code now
2015-06-07T20:23:19Z p_l: I'd probably scour the ebay, or maybe even consider going to a hackerspace to make one on 3d printer
2015-06-07T20:23:57Z p_l: nyef: btw, for running VLM on CS20, you'll have to switch to IDE
2015-06-07T20:24:02Z cheryllium: There are a lot of files here, how do I figure out which one will contain the information I am looking for?
2015-06-07T20:24:59Z scymtym: cheryllium: have you seen http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Running-external-programs ? it describes the various PROCESS-* functions.
2015-06-07T20:25:18Z nyef: Not thinking about running VLM on it, thinking about running Linux as a host for SBCL.
2015-06-07T20:25:35Z cheryllium: scymtym: I have. My problem is that process-kill doesn't seem to exist on windows (I get an error saying that when I try to run it) so there does not seem to be a way to kill the process
2015-06-07T20:25:43Z nyef: But, since we're on the subject, any caveats for VLM on a DS10L?
2015-06-07T20:26:13Z p_l: cheryllium: SBCL installed from source supports M-. in SLIME
2015-06-07T20:27:01Z p_l: nyef: afaik none, VLM just expects certain functions to be configured, which are described in quickstart.text
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2015-06-07T20:27:56Z p_l: you need NFSv2, NIS, no shadow passwords or MD5 or anything like that, few kernel parameters updated, OSF/1 4.0 or newer, packet filter enabled... and I think that's it
2015-06-07T20:28:27Z nyef: Okay, thanks.
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2015-06-07T20:30:29Z cheryllium: Sometimes using windows is a genuine struggle. Just discovered that my slime is broken. great T_T
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2015-06-07T20:32:59Z cheryllium: Please excuse my newbie questions, but was I supposed to type sb-ext:process after M-.? Because doing so gives me "No known definition", I must have done something wrong
2015-06-07T20:33:30Z Quadrescence: cheryllium, Did you install SBCL from source, including recompiling it?
2015-06-07T20:33:53Z nyef: You're attached to swank, you unpacked the correct source, you either compiled from that source or updated the SYS: logical pathname host...?
2015-06-07T20:34:26Z nyef: clhs logical-pathname-translations
2015-06-07T20:34:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_logica.htm
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2015-06-07T20:35:24Z cheryllium: I installed using the windows installer... By "from source" do you mean compiling the source code myself?
2015-06-07T20:35:55Z kristof: That's usually what that means.
2015-06-07T20:36:10Z cheryllium: Thanks. Again please forgive my newbie questions
2015-06-07T20:36:47Z nyef: You might find it easier to alter the SYS: logical pathname host than to do a full build, FWIW.
2015-06-07T20:37:00Z cheryllium: Hmm, okay, thank you
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2015-06-07T20:38:18Z Fare: p_l: if I understand correctly, John C. Mallery, of cl-http fame, holds the rights to the Symbolics IP, but hasn't done anything with it in years, and won't reply to email on that topic.
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2015-06-07T20:39:04Z Fare: though I've seen him diss ASDF on the LW mailing-list because of its security model. I suppose he was speaking of quicklisp downloading stuff from the interwebz.
2015-06-07T20:39:21Z Fare: or of his memories of asdf-install years ago.
2015-06-07T20:40:27Z cheryllium: What is the SYS: logical pathname host?
2015-06-07T20:40:39Z Fare: sounds like it.
2015-06-07T20:41:27Z p_l: Fare: hmm... AFAIK the IP is unclear, and the last "clear" owner died without inheritors to it...
2015-06-07T20:41:46Z nyef: cheryllium: (logical-pathname-translations "SYS")
2015-06-07T20:41:54Z p_l: anyway, I suspect that symbolics-dks might *know* a bit more, if only to avoid being in bad position with their DoD customers
2015-06-07T20:42:05Z nyef: (It's an accessor, so read it, figure out what would look better in the value, and then SETF it.)
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2015-06-07T20:42:42Z cheryllium: What is it an accessor for (what is it supposed to point to)?
2015-06-07T20:43:12Z Fare: p_l: dunno what you mean by "unclear". One person has a somewhat clean claim. No one dares challenge it. I'll call that solid enough.
2015-06-07T20:43:14Z nyef: This is the point in our program where you read the hyperspec.
2015-06-07T20:43:32Z Fare: p_l: go track jcma if you can.
2015-06-07T20:43:50Z nyef: (The page in question linked above, or you can use C-c C-d h if you're in SLIME.)
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2015-06-07T20:44:27Z p_l: Fare: hmm
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2015-06-07T20:44:43Z cheryllium: I have read it but it doesn't mention "SYS", is this something particular to slime?
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2015-06-07T20:46:08Z nyef: No, it's particular to SBCL. "SYS" is the name of the logical pathname host.
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2015-06-07T20:46:24Z p_l: cheryllium: SBCL stores paths to source files for each function etc. using logical pathnames with the host "SYS", so that as long as the translation is properly setup the sources can be located anywhere
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2015-06-07T20:51:36Z p_l: hmm, apparently my snap4-based OpenGenera is quite runnable now
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2015-06-07T20:51:53Z p_l: I only hope the NFS path translation issues do not bite me, again
2015-06-07T20:52:03Z cheryllium: YES, I found an explanation of it http://www.sbcl.org/1.0/manual/Lisp-Pathnames.html
2015-06-07T20:52:40Z Fare: p_l: were fixes of X issues ever published?
2015-06-07T20:52:49Z Fare: brad parker also won't reply to my email.
2015-06-07T20:53:09Z p_l: Fare: the fixes are known as "use a conforming X server"
2015-06-07T20:53:28Z cheryllium: I'm still hopelessly confused. It is supposed to point "to the locations of the system's sources", what does system's sources mean exactly?
2015-06-07T20:53:42Z p_l: cheryllium: SBCL sources, unpacked somewhere
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2015-06-07T20:54:17Z cheryllium: Ah, now I see.
2015-06-07T20:54:21Z p_l: Fare: generally, there are two things - you need *classic* Xlib (xlib-xcb is a no-no), and you need a non-broken X server, meaning no X.Org above certain version (I think 6.9/7.0 might have been the last)
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2015-06-07T20:58:17Z p_l: cheryllium: the translations allow SBCL to turn "SYS:SRC;CODE;RUN-PROGRAM.LISP.NEWEST" to "/home/pl/root/sbcl-1.2.11/src/code/run-program.lisp"
2015-06-07T20:58:34Z cheryllium: Yes, I see now, thank you!!
2015-06-07T21:00:14Z p_l: it was quite heavily used on Symbolics Lisp Machines :)
2015-06-07T21:02:45Z Quadrescence: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/illogical-pathnames
2015-06-07T21:03:15Z Quadrescence: For better or for worse, for most applications, I found a solution like the above better than using the native CL facility.
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2015-06-07T21:03:47Z p_l: Quadrescence: a portable extension to lisp I/O that would allow one to plug into logical pathnames + some updates would be very, very nice
2015-06-07T21:04:07Z Quadrescence: Such a solution I presented above is imperfect however. It could be improved if there was an extension to Lisp that allows specifying methods on some generic function TRANSLATE-PATHNAME
2015-06-07T21:04:23Z Quadrescence: yes
2015-06-07T21:04:25Z cheryllium: Hmm, restarted slime, it appears to work now (I tested by asking M-. about mapcar)
2015-06-07T21:04:45Z cheryllium: Unfortunately, it says "no known definition" for both process and sb-ext:process...
2015-06-07T21:05:15Z p_l: Quadrescence: an extension implemented similarly to extensible-sequences could a be nice solution
2015-06-07T21:05:27Z Quadrescence: yes that was my thought exactly
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2015-06-07T21:06:33Z p_l: Quadrescence: especially if it was packaged into base code under very permissive license so that a) open source implementations could incorporate it quickly b) commercial vendors could incorporate it as well with minimal fuss
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2015-06-07T21:08:03Z cheryllium: I'm looking at run-program.lisp and it looks like process-kill is commented out completely, I wonder why that is
2015-06-07T21:08:04Z Quadrescence: p_l: To be honest, I think a 98% improvement would be just that one single generic function: TRANSLATE-PATHNAME, which everything (e.g., OPEN) knows about.
2015-06-07T21:08:13Z Quadrescence: It takes some object and translates it into a physical pathname
2015-06-07T21:10:28Z p_l: Quadrescence: I'd like to also be able to hijack CL:OPEN based on the pathname, tbh
2015-06-07T21:10:49Z Quadrescence: Can you give an example?
2015-06-07T21:11:19Z scymtym: cheryllium: PROCESS-KILL is not defined on win32 (the #-win32 above the definition does that). SLIME fontifies the definition as if it was commented out to reflect that.
2015-06-07T21:11:47Z cheryllium: Ah, I see.
2015-06-07T21:11:53Z p_l: Quadrescence: For example, make it so that (OPEN "EMB:DATA;something.dat") is hijacked to open a (custom) stream to data that is embedded into image
2015-06-07T21:12:04Z cheryllium: I wish to write a function that will allow me to kill processes created by run-program
2015-06-07T21:12:43Z Quadrescence: p_l: And your pathname there would have some type reflecting that?
2015-06-07T21:13:00Z Quadrescence: that = the fact that you're not opening that file directly, but some stream associated with that file
2015-06-07T21:13:46Z p_l: Quadrescence: Yes, the translated "host" would imply "convert the pathname like this but also call this function to open the stream"
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2015-06-07T21:13:59Z p_l: where the function creates apropriate gray stream to fit the custom I/O
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2015-06-07T21:15:08Z Quadrescence: p_l: My thought is that you should have a new pathname class for that type of thing.
2015-06-07T21:15:22Z Quadrescence: I don't think it should determine that from some pattern in the pathname.
2015-06-07T21:15:27Z Fare: p_l: it makes sense to distribute a VM or chroot image of genera + matching libraries and Xvnc.
2015-06-07T21:16:42Z p_l: Fare: that's what I am doing for a few friends
2015-06-07T21:16:42Z p_l: Fare: a complete image of Ubuntu 6.06 running Genera
2015-06-07T21:16:48Z p_l: though I'll have to update it sometime in the future with apropriate printing support and a tutorial
2015-06-07T21:17:10Z p_l: (right now it dumps you at what the sysadmin would see after installing VLM200 package on Tru64)
2015-06-07T21:17:47Z scymtym: cheryllium: to achieve that with SBCL: 1. find out how to do it in win32 C API 2. make the necessary functions, types, etc. usable from SBCL (see src/code/win32.lisp) 3. write an alternate definition of PROCESS-KILL (conditionalized on #+win32)
2015-06-07T21:17:57Z p_l: https://remoteok.io/jobs/7627-remote-senior-software-engineer-secureone <--- huh
2015-06-07T21:18:53Z Quadrescence: p_l, I know a couple people who work there
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2015-06-07T21:23:00Z Fare: p_l: I'm interested. Can you dump images in this setup? I have a setup where everything works but dumping images, so that I have to reconfigure genera every time I start it.
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2015-06-07T21:26:34Z H4ns: Fare: just take a snapshot of the virtual machine :)
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2015-06-07T21:29:13Z Fare: bingo
2015-06-07T21:29:34Z Fare: H4ns wins at recursive bingo
2015-06-07T21:29:39Z H4ns: Fare: i think the inability to dump images is one of the bigger bugs in snap4
2015-06-07T21:30:19Z Fare: I'm told it's fixed on brad parker's svn, but brad parker won't make another binary release somehow.
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2015-06-07T21:31:32Z Fare: it's been 3 years since I last bugged him, maybe I can do it again now.
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2015-06-07T21:41:13Z p_l: Fare: Save World works very well for me
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2015-06-07T21:42:42Z Fare: p_l: I'm interested in your VM setup, then.
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2015-06-07T21:44:40Z p_l: Fare: the basic setup is very simple - it's an Ubuntu 6.06 amd64 (the version is important), with twm, xterm, vnc4server, all of the classic xfonts packages (important, or Genera will crash!), nis, nfs and I think that's it
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2015-06-07T21:49:08Z Fare: p_l: would you care to release a tarball?
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2015-06-07T21:50:05Z p_l: Fare: right now the tarred stuff I have contains a copy of the OpenGenera 2.0 CD, but I might prepare a cleaned-up version later on
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2015-06-07T21:50:54Z Fare: splitting in two tarballs would be good, but even non-cleaned-up is better than nothing
2015-06-07T21:51:43Z Fare: a VM that automatically boots into Genera would be nice, too.
2015-06-07T21:52:09Z Fare: with autodetect of window size, divine.
2015-06-07T21:52:50Z p_l: Fare: the latter is semi-doable, the former would need a bit more tinkering not because of it being hard, but because you need to make it possible to easily switch worlds
2015-06-07T21:53:37Z fortitude: cheryllium: it might be helpful to look at doors (https://github.com/lovesan/doors), which has the FFI definitions for TerminateProcess() among other things (but note that it uses lovesan's own library for marshalling data, so you won't be able to just copy it directly)
2015-06-07T21:53:57Z p_l: my ultimate goal, though, with republishing Genera tapes would be to allow community patches for Genera
2015-06-07T21:53:59Z cheryllium: Thank you, fortitude, I imagine that will be helpful
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2015-06-07T22:02:22Z fortitude: Quadrescence: I know I'm pretty late to this party, but doesn't that hookable pathname-hosts thing sound a lot like URIs? and if so, I suspect you could go a long way with an IO package that just used them for everything (with a translation hook, of course)
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2015-06-07T22:03:03Z python476: hey there
2015-06-07T22:03:09Z python476: anyone in paris tomorrow
2015-06-07T22:03:10Z python476: ?
2015-06-07T22:03:35Z Quadrescence: fortitude, yes
2015-06-07T22:03:52Z python476: there's a Queinnec day at the UPMC/Jussieu campus. See http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/38wwfi/for_lispers_in_paris_on_june_8th_2015_there_will/
2015-06-07T22:04:18Z fortitude: Quadrescence: I guess the issue is with existing code, where a separate package wouldn't do you any good
2015-06-07T22:04:24Z python476: author of Lisp in small pieces (in case someone wonders)
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2015-06-07T22:08:53Z Fare: p_l: you could still Ctrl-F1 in the VM to get a shell, or ssh into it.
2015-06-07T22:09:07Z Fare: p_l: so booting into Genera shouldn't be a hurdle
2015-06-07T22:09:31Z p_l: Fare: IMO the right thing would be to create a simple equivalent of Ivory FEP command processor :P
2015-06-07T22:10:02Z python476: someone's running a lispmachine image right now  ?
2015-06-07T22:10:02Z p_l: the original scripts from https://github.com/ynniv/opengenera included auto start of general
2015-06-07T22:10:05Z p_l: *genera
2015-06-07T22:10:09Z python476: #disturbance in the force
2015-06-07T22:10:21Z p_l: python476: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9540080/screenshots/yui/2015-06-07_20%3A10_1366x768.png
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2015-06-07T22:10:51Z python476: p_l: in a time machine too !
2015-06-07T22:11:03Z python476: (past midnight here, haa greenwhich humor)
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2015-06-07T22:11:15Z python476: p_l: how hard was it to setup ?
2015-06-07T22:11:53Z p_l: python476: took some time to find out that without all of classic xfonts the genera will crash on ~44th X11 request
2015-06-07T22:12:02Z python476: hehe
2015-06-07T22:12:13Z python476: archeology
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2015-06-07T22:30:36Z protist: if I want a method to apply to a few types...how might I go about that
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2015-06-07T22:30:53Z protist: like (method meth ((a (string number))) ...)
2015-06-07T22:31:01Z protist: does that actually work?
2015-06-07T22:31:45Z Bike: no.
2015-06-07T22:31:59Z Bike: methods are specialized on classes, not types. so types like (or string number) aren't valid to specialize on.
2015-06-07T22:32:16Z protist: ah
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2015-06-07T22:33:50Z protist: Bike: thank you
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2015-06-07T23:21:14Z pjb: Thanks!  Being informed of a Queinnec day at the UPMC/Jussieu campus 8 hours before it starts!  There's still a fucking fr.comp.lang.lisp!!!!
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2015-06-07T23:22:19Z pjb: I've not received anything from the UPMC allumni mail list either, so they surely definitely DO NOT want us to go.
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2015-06-07T23:57:06Z Xach: eudoxia: thanks for blogging! i am going to add it to planet lisp!
2015-06-07T23:57:30Z Xach: eudoxia: the rss feed is a little broken, though. it says yourdomain.com
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2015-06-07T23:57:57Z eudoxia: Xach: thank you, i might have to figure out how to provide an RSS for lisp-only posts
2015-06-07T23:57:58Z eudoxia: also haha
2015-06-07T23:58:29Z Xach: eudoxia: if you put category info in your feed, i can limit planet lisp's slurping to certain categories
2015-06-07T23:58:51Z eudoxia: Xach: each <item> has a <category> for each tag, and there's a lisp tag. will that be enough?
2015-06-07T23:59:12Z Xach: yes
2015-06-07T23:59:20Z Xach: but the yourdomain.com is a deal breakre
2015-06-07T23:59:28Z Xach: ok fixed! phew!
2015-06-07T23:59:52Z Xach: (breakre is how they spell it in canada)
2015-06-08T00:01:21Z eudoxia: yep github pages builds instantly
2015-06-08T00:01:31Z pjb: "Un casseur d'accord comercial" in Quebec :-)
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2015-06-08T00:54:04Z Fare: does github offer server cpu time to run travis???
2015-06-08T00:54:31Z Fare: or are they selling it at very attractive price?
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2015-06-08T00:59:05Z p_l: hmm, to anyone who has a LispM on hand, could they check for me what kind of system uses the logical host "S" ?
2015-06-08T01:00:18Z p_l fears it's somehow S-graphics
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2015-06-08T01:05:16Z Fare: I only have the og2 code, and it doesn't seem to have it.
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2015-06-08T01:05:40Z Fare: <spock>logical pathnames are... illogical</spock>
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2015-06-08T01:08:34Z p_l: I'm trying to restore the distribution tape :|
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2015-06-08T01:15:55Z pjb: p_l: probably configured by the user.
2015-06-08T01:16:21Z pjb: Add a translations to some specific directory.
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2015-06-08T01:18:07Z p_l: pjb: that's how I am doing a workaround, but given the nature of "distribution tape" that is supposed to be restored after initial install...
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2015-06-08T01:46:22Z p_l: most annoying is that it seems to not be created in the end at all (the "S" logical host translation)
2015-06-08T01:46:45Z jaykru_: is testing bots written in Lisp allowed here?
2015-06-08T01:48:59Z nyef: If you're testing a bot, I'd suggest putting it in its own test channel.
2015-06-08T01:50:01Z jaykru_: well I have been doing that but I'm looking for somewhere I can do more of a real world test to root out edge cases
2015-06-08T01:50:15Z p_l: make your own test channel, but as long as the bot isn't too chatty or otherwise disruptive, I guess it's ok
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2015-06-08T01:50:46Z ronh-: does it do anything interesting? like evaluate CL expressions
2015-06-08T01:51:17Z jaykru_: it has a very specific use case
2015-06-08T01:51:24Z nyef: There's a fairly longstanding policy against evalbots in this channel.
2015-06-08T01:51:38Z jaykru_: it doesn't eval
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2015-06-08T01:52:33Z jaykru_: here he is
2015-06-08T01:54:12Z jaykru_: RMS9001, tell us about Linux.
2015-06-08T01:54:22Z RMS9001: jaykru_: I would like to interject for a moment. What you're refering to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.
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2015-06-08T01:54:49Z jaykru_: there's his single use case
2015-06-08T01:54:51Z p_l: eh, maybe not an rmsbot
2015-06-08T01:55:09Z jaykru_: ;) he won't be back again @p_l
2015-06-08T01:55:32Z p_l: not because I'm against the humour of it, but because it's a bit overdone by now :D
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2015-06-08T01:56:07Z akkad: so many 404's on common-lisp.net
2015-06-08T01:56:23Z akkad: where can one get https://common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/tree/master/tools/install-asdf.lisp?
2015-06-08T01:59:12Z edgar-rft: akkad: see https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/tree/master/tools/install-asdf.lisp
2015-06-08T01:59:51Z akkad: ty
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2015-06-08T02:11:16Z drmeister: beach: Are you online?
2015-06-08T02:15:45Z drmeister: beach: I've added a hook to defun to generate inlining information.
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2015-06-08T02:35:30Z drmeister: I can inline anything - the question is - how do I decide what to inline?
2015-06-08T02:35:58Z Fare: 1- don't
2015-06-08T02:36:15Z Fare: 2- linear analysis
2015-06-08T02:36:24Z Fare: 3- JIT for what are often used paths
2015-06-08T02:36:59Z drmeister: (1) I'll be where I am, 100x slower than SBCL
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2015-06-08T02:37:04Z drmeister: (2) What is linear analysis?
2015-06-08T02:37:18Z drmeister: (3) How do I decide what are often used paths?
2015-06-08T02:38:25Z drmeister: I know I want to inline oft used functions like CDR, CAR, CONS, +
2015-06-08T02:38:55Z Zhivago: I recommend profiling.
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2015-06-08T02:40:14Z Zhivago: If you make inlining decisions depending on a profile, you'll have the best option.
2015-06-08T02:40:31Z Zhivago: Then your profile generation logic can be decoupled.
2015-06-08T02:41:02Z p_l: drmeister: I suspect certain well-defined functions that won't get redefined (like CAR, CDR, CONS etc.) could be inlined, especially if you can make a decision based on known parameters
2015-06-08T02:41:02Z nyef: How about this? If it can be inlined, do it. And note that the standard has semantics that allow the compiler to know the inline definition but not be allowed to use it.
2015-06-08T02:41:24Z Zhivago: You can also then generate a default profile which carries the usual weights, for independent compilation of unknown code and that might carry CONS, CDR, etc.
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2015-06-08T02:41:46Z Zhivago: But you could also generate a profile by running code and then recompiling it with the profile generated.
2015-06-08T02:41:47Z p_l: drmeister: also... if you manage to record where every inline happens, and a way to "patch it out" if function changes...
2015-06-08T02:42:07Z Zhivago: Hard-coded heuristics are probably the worst approach. :)
2015-06-08T02:42:28Z drmeister: Does SBCL do profiling?
2015-06-08T02:42:48Z Zhivago: I believe it has a profiler available.
2015-06-08T02:42:59Z Zhivago: But I don't think that it uses it for compilation.
2015-06-08T02:43:02Z nyef: SBCL has two profilers, but the compiler doesn't use them to make inlining decisions.
2015-06-08T02:43:29Z Zhivago: But given that you have the option to do so, you should have the compiler make decisions based on profiles.
2015-06-08T02:43:43Z nyef: Seriously, use the combination of declare inline / declare notinline, and overall compiler policy declarations, to control inlining.
2015-06-08T02:44:23Z nyef: Once you have that much working, THEN consider doing something clever in terms of retroactive reoptimization based on profiling data.
2015-06-08T02:44:30Z p_l: nyef: doesn't SBCL also have several low-level functions implemented pretty much as VOPs, which afaik make them nearly-inlined (not completely, but close?)
2015-06-08T02:44:57Z nyef: p_l: Yes. And if you declare them NOTINLINE, the VOPs no longer get used.
2015-06-08T02:45:18Z drmeister: nyef: I'll have to do as you say. I don't have a profiler at this point.
2015-06-08T02:45:24Z drmeister: Not one built into Clasp.
2015-06-08T02:45:28Z nyef: Also prevents the compiler transforms from firing on the functions.
2015-06-08T02:46:31Z p_l imagines for a moment a GC written in VOPs
2015-06-08T02:46:40Z p_l: ... I've been looking a bit too long at mezzano
2015-06-08T02:47:15Z nyef: p_l: I did some initial poking around in the direction of writing a GC for SBCL that way... Several years ago. Nothing really came of it.
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2015-06-08T02:48:13Z p_l: nyef: I sometimes wonder how feasible it would be to make the GC code in mostly-non-consing CL that runs with GC disabled...
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2015-06-08T02:50:15Z nyef: Almost certainly could be done, but not likely to be a huge gain from doing so.
2015-06-08T02:50:31Z nyef: ... unless you're planning on resurrecting sbcl-os?
2015-06-08T02:51:55Z akkad: well that's one way to get readline support :P
2015-06-08T02:53:16Z p_l: akkad: or a CP knock-off
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2015-06-08T03:07:30Z Fare: p_l: have you seen Rust? no GC needed.
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2015-06-08T03:13:25Z p_l: I've seen a mostly GC-less lisp :)
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2015-06-08T03:28:28Z beach: drmeister: Like some people said, inline functions that won't change, that are small, and that the type inferencer can use when inlined.
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2015-06-08T03:29:41Z beach: And good morning everyone!
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2015-06-08T03:30:07Z nalik891: morning!
2015-06-08T03:30:22Z nalik891: Here it is night yet
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2015-06-08T03:33:06Z p_l: ... ok, wat. I might have just found snap5
2015-06-08T03:33:16Z p_l: ... I have a feeling an update to my VM image is coming -_-
2015-06-08T03:33:59Z beach: drmeister: Start with the CAR/CDR family, binary addition, and binary subtraction.
2015-06-08T03:34:38Z beach: drmeister: Also: 1+ and 1-
2015-06-08T03:35:17Z beach: drmeister: CONSP, EQ, NULL.
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2015-06-08T03:45:47Z drmeister: Hello!
2015-06-08T03:46:13Z beach: Hello drmeister.
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2015-06-08T03:47:46Z nalik891 is now known as bison891
2015-06-08T03:47:52Z drmeister: I'm processing the defun declares for the function to get inline/notinline declarations
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2015-06-08T03:48:51Z drmeister: Cleavir is working within Clasp again.  However, there is still a problem with macrolet.
2015-06-08T03:49:15Z drmeister: Was the macrolet implementation with Cleavir my responsibility or Cleavir's?
2015-06-08T03:50:38Z beach: Cleavir does the macrolet.
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2015-06-08T03:51:06Z drmeister: I'm writing a little test case.  The problem surfaced with compiling ASDF.
2015-06-08T03:52:38Z Old_K: Hello everyone, good news on "How to run VLM opengenera on latest linux system without X11 problems": It can be done!
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2015-06-08T03:56:45Z Old_K: In short terms, the X11 hang problems have been debuged in http://tech-sketch.jp/2014/12/linux-lispmachine.html
2015-06-08T03:57:03Z Old_K: and solved in http://tech-sketch.jp/2015/02/linux_lispmachine_2.html
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2015-06-08T03:58:38Z drmeister: beach: Here's an example that fails to compile
2015-06-08T03:58:40Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/2xvfEnSd/
2015-06-08T03:58:51Z akkad: Old_K these were fixed by ams a while ago
2015-06-08T03:59:01Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/R66mZsym/
2015-06-08T04:00:40Z drmeister: What's really, really strange is that in Clasp it gets compiled three times and the third time it fails.
2015-06-08T04:00:49Z drmeister: I have a feeling it's my code that is the problem.
2015-06-08T04:00:53Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/OACWLA3S/
2015-06-08T04:02:20Z beach: I can't see how anything would have worked in the past if there were a problem with how Clevir handles MACROLET.
2015-06-08T04:03:27Z beach: Especially a case as simple as this one.
2015-06-08T04:03:34Z beach: The macro only refers to its parameters.
2015-06-08T04:03:36Z Old_K: akkad: OK, is there a link of ams's solution I can find?
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2015-06-08T04:06:36Z akkad: Old_K: check #lispm
2015-06-08T04:07:52Z beach: drmeister: Why does the compilation of the last LAMBDA form result in the compilation of a LOCALLY form that looks wrong?
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2015-06-08T04:08:57Z akkad: Old_K: he has it passing some conformance tests now
2015-06-08T04:09:04Z drmeister: You mean the:  (LAMBDA () (LOCALLY (DEFDEF DEFGENERIC* DEFGENERIC) (DEFDEF DEFUN* DEFUN)))?  Hmmm...
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2015-06-08T04:09:36Z beach: drmeister: Yes.  The previous ones look plausible, but that one is just wrong it seems.
2015-06-08T04:10:40Z pjb: Well, (declaim (declaration defdef)) (defmacro defdef (a b) 'nil) and  (LAMBDA () (LOCALLY (DEFDEF DEFGENERIC* DEFGENERIC) (DEFDEF DEFUN* DEFUN))) should compile ok.
2015-06-08T04:11:20Z pjb: Oops, you need (LOCALLY (declaim (DEFDEF DEFGENERIC* DEFGENERIC)) (DEFDEF DEFUN* DEFUN))
2015-06-08T04:13:20Z beach: pjb: Isn't that beside the point?
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2015-06-08T04:14:04Z drmeister: I'm not sure what is going on - investigating...
2015-06-08T04:14:29Z pjb: Well, locally doesn't need a declaration, so this lambda form is ok.
2015-06-08T04:15:01Z beach: True.
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2015-06-08T04:17:36Z beach: And I don't exactly know what we are looking at, i.e. if that LAMBDA expression is some sub-expression of a bigger one, because we can't see the environments.
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2015-06-08T04:18:44Z Old_K: akkad: Thank you, although I still can't find the link of ams (Alfred M. Szmidt?)
2015-06-08T04:19:23Z akkad: Old_K: yes. Not sure he's published it all.
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2015-06-08T04:21:53Z Old_K: akkad: OK. Anyway, the key is (defun xlib:set-modifier-mapping (display &rest args)) to solve the freeze at startup and (defun xlib:close-display (display &key abort)) to solve the freeze when "save world".
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2015-06-08T04:24:17Z drmeister: beach: I'm fading fast.  Too many late nights.  I'll pick this up tomorrow.
2015-06-08T04:24:39Z beach: Good plan.
2015-06-08T04:24:41Z drmeister: I've got it narrowed down a bit
2015-06-08T04:24:57Z drmeister: I'll talk to you tomorrow.  I'm heading up to Boston on the train.
2015-06-08T04:25:08Z beach: OK.
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2015-06-08T04:37:52Z akkad: Error: this platform does not support :long-long.
2015-06-08T04:39:11Z pjb: you need 64-bit for long long.
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2015-06-08T04:55:58Z theos: there is long long?
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2015-06-08T04:59:58Z theos: hmm its a cffi thing
2015-06-08T05:00:18Z p_l: a C thing
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2015-06-08T05:01:59Z theos: maybe i should learn C someday
2015-06-08T05:02:23Z jaykru_: there's really not much to it
2015-06-08T05:02:35Z jaykru_: it's a really small language
2015-06-08T05:02:43Z jaykru_: check this out maybe? http://learnxinyminutes.com/docs/c/
2015-06-08T05:03:05Z theos: oh nice
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2015-06-08T05:08:55Z grdstate89: thx nice link
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2015-06-08T05:11:02Z grdstate89: goonight for all
2015-06-08T05:11:18Z jaykru_: night
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2015-06-08T05:18:45Z beach: jaykru_: There are some interesting restrictions on what you are allowed to write in C though.  Not only when it comes to nesting depth of statements, length of identifiers, etc.  But also where you are allowed to put things like longjmp() (and that makes it hard to write an exception mechanism for C), and where pointers are allowed to point.  I think most people are unaware of such restrictions.
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2015-06-08T05:20:28Z jaykru_: Very true, beach. Though I still will maintain that you can *get by* with a relatively rudimentary knowledge of C. Though arguably you shouldn't given how badly putting that much power in the hands of an incompetent programmer can go.
2015-06-08T05:22:46Z pjb: Given the number of programmers who use copy-pasting programming…
2015-06-08T05:23:18Z theos: will you call them programmers?
2015-06-08T05:23:53Z beach: jaykru_: Yes, I agree with you.  I am just saying that the language is significantly more complicated than the first impression might suggest.
2015-06-08T05:24:14Z Zhivago: Cut and paste is often the best choice.
2015-06-08T05:24:38Z Zhivago: The main benefit is that does not produce a dependency into the future.
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2015-06-08T06:15:36Z kami: Good morning
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2015-06-08T06:43:20Z theos: is there a way to increase scale/number of digits after decimal? currently its set to 6
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2015-06-08T06:58:22Z edgar-rft: theos: if *read-default-float-format* is set to 'single-float (default value), all floats are read and printed as single-floats unless you explicitely write e.g. 1.234567890d0 for a double-float, which should be printed with more than six digits after the dot.
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2015-06-08T07:13:24Z akkad: anyone else on the beta list for acl?
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2015-06-08T10:48:42Z standoo: why had lisp been associated with chatbots?
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2015-06-08T11:07:49Z p_l: don't think it ever was, except maybe "lisp=ai" angle
2015-06-08T11:07:57Z p_l: and well, eliza
2015-06-08T11:10:29Z loz1 wrote bot in for erlang chat =)
2015-06-08T11:10:36Z loz1: in lisp*
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2015-06-08T11:11:02Z standoo: i'm trying to design a bot programming platform
2015-06-08T11:11:14Z standoo: so just evaluating some languages which may be suitable
2015-06-08T11:11:46Z standoo: i read that some guy won the google chatbot contest with lisp
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2015-06-08T11:13:06Z loz1: somebody often does something with lisp
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2015-06-08T11:14:43Z pjb: even win contests.
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2015-06-08T11:15:02Z pjb: and invent new concepts.
2015-06-08T11:15:11Z pjb: and new applications of computers.
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2015-06-08T11:16:33Z standoo: oh?
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2015-06-08T11:18:20Z pjb: For example, windowing systems, computer graphics, computer animation were invented on Lisp Machines. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bTqWsVqyzE&list=PLFGwvw1jHU_THdNvecNthaKBHnRv9hxbL&index=18
2015-06-08T11:19:30Z pjb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VmJVNYfxDc
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2015-06-08T11:22:06Z loz1: pjb: any thoughts about http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSnnfUj1XCQ ?
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2015-06-08T11:24:41Z pjb: I can't watch it now. Ask again tomorrow. Good night!
2015-06-08T11:27:36Z loz1: okey, no problems, cya
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2015-06-08T12:17:05Z theos: standoo common lisp is the perfect language for designing a bot programming platform. you can transform it into any language you want to. like a specialized powerful new language/platform for bot design.
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2015-06-08T12:18:04Z standoo: theos: yeah it seems to thick those boxes well
2015-06-08T12:18:17Z standoo: theos: i'm looking at racket now though
2015-06-08T12:18:27Z standoo: theos: because it has a sandbox feature which i need
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2015-06-08T12:20:49Z theos: standoo you can transform CL into racket too :P more powerful racket than the actual one
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2015-06-08T12:21:53Z standoo: theos: i can't do that alone
2015-06-08T12:22:08Z standoo: theos: by the way, i'm new to lisp like languages
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2015-06-08T12:25:23Z theos: standoo you can, after learning CL. investing some time to learn Common Lisp(CL) will be worth it in the long run imo. once you master the CL macros, you can do extraordinary things with beautiful code!
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2015-06-08T12:28:17Z standoo: theos: you can be my mentor :)
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2015-06-08T12:28:55Z standoo: theos: what is a good starting book?
2015-06-08T12:29:30Z antoszka: minion: tell standoo about pcl
2015-06-08T12:29:30Z minion: standoo: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2015-06-08T12:31:30Z standoo: minion: who are you?
2015-06-08T12:31:30Z minion: why do you want to know?
2015-06-08T12:31:36Z standoo: minion: are you a bot?
2015-06-08T12:31:37Z minion: i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''.
2015-06-08T12:31:50Z standoo: how many bots are here?
2015-06-08T12:32:01Z standoo: minion: go do my dishes
2015-06-08T12:32:02Z minion: Would you /please/ stop playing with me? 3 messages in 31 seconds is too many.
2015-06-08T12:33:04Z standoo: what is the relation between lisp and racket?
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2015-06-08T12:33:45Z H4ns: standoo: this channel is about common lisp.  you may want to take your off-topic discussion to #lispcafe
2015-06-08T12:34:01Z H4ns: standoo: also, google is a fine resource to get answers to questions like your last.
2015-06-08T12:35:16Z theos: standoo i am still learning and there are super CL users here who can help you much more than i can.(follow the IRC etiquette). i can suggest some books to you which i find really awesome! You can learn the basics online easily and in no time. I read "ANSI Common Lisp" as the second book. Started with PCL but for some reason i didnt like it. maybe i am not smart enough. Then i suggest "On Lisp". then "Let Ov
2015-06-08T12:35:17Z theos: er Lambda" (these are macros mastering books).
2015-06-08T12:36:42Z antoszka: Land of Lisp is another possible introduction of the lighter calibre. Depends on your programming experience.
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2015-06-08T12:41:34Z standoo: antoszka: i know a bunch of languages from erlang, haskell, factor, lua, python, go
2015-06-08T12:41:48Z standoo: antoszka: at least some experience in them
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2015-06-08T12:42:02Z antoszka: standoo: cool, PCL should be just right then
2015-06-08T12:42:14Z antoszka: if not a bit too verbose.
2015-06-08T12:42:46Z standoo: antoszka: the place to find libraries is here? Quicklisp ?
2015-06-08T12:42:56Z antoszka: Yep.
2015-06-08T12:44:07Z theos: standoo you can use emacs. it has nice SLIME mode for developing CL applications
2015-06-08T12:44:40Z standoo: cool
2015-06-08T12:44:42Z standoo: thanks
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2015-06-08T12:46:15Z standoo: this channel seems to be slightly busier than racket
2015-06-08T12:46:25Z standoo: hope i can get more help if i get stuck
2015-06-08T12:47:04Z antoszka: standoo: You can also get SLIME from quicklisp, which I'd recommend. You'll get regular updates, and they will be in sync with the SWANK (common lisp side) counterpart.
2015-06-08T12:47:16Z standoo: cool
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2015-06-08T12:50:26Z standoo: downloading clozure now
2015-06-08T12:50:56Z antoszka: standoo: What platform are you running on?
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2015-06-08T12:52:49Z theos: SBCL for linux
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2015-06-08T12:54:07Z antoszka: standoo: yeah, if you're running linux, sbcl will the best supported option
2015-06-08T12:54:18Z antoszka: (at least on x86/64 :))
2015-06-08T12:55:12Z standoo: common lisp ha dynamic coad loading?
2015-06-08T12:55:34Z standoo: and can theoretically build some kind of resource limited sandbox?
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2015-06-08T12:56:07Z antoszka: yes
2015-06-08T12:56:18Z p_l: standoo: the latter though depends on your implementation
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2015-06-08T12:56:48Z H4ns: standoo: "theoretically" you can.  in practice, it is a lot of work.
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2015-06-08T12:57:45Z p_l: not many languages can really pull off the sandbox idea (Lua?)
2015-06-08T12:58:01Z H4ns: lua can, java can, javascript can, erlang can.
2015-06-08T12:58:05Z H4ns: granted, that is not a lot.
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2015-06-08T12:58:42Z standoo: erlang not that easy though as the language is designed the the code could be trusted
2015-06-08T12:59:41Z H4ns: point being: in common lisp it is, while theoretically possible, not really easy and the lack of a cl evaluation robot, a public cl rpl or a web server where you can evaluate arbitrary cl expressions is a testimonial to that.
2015-06-08T13:03:09Z Shinmera: Beach's first-class global environments could change that.
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2015-06-08T13:09:01Z antoszka: we're running a cl bot elsewhere, https://bitbucket.org/dodek/klacz -- it's got an ,eval command that you could get some inspiration from
2015-06-08T13:09:11Z antoszka: but yeah, it's not perfect, and it's quite complex.
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2015-06-08T13:10:53Z durm: I cant understand what for the lisp uses macroses? what operations you cant implement using ordinary functions, but can with macroses?
2015-06-08T13:11:23Z Zhivago: Macros are tiny and relatively stupid compilers.
2015-06-08T13:11:23Z Shinmera: macros are just functions. The difference is when they're evaluated.
2015-06-08T13:11:36Z H4ns: durm: try to write a function that implements IF
2015-06-08T13:11:42Z Zhivago: That's a very bad way to think of it.
2015-06-08T13:12:19Z Zhivago: It should be obvious that macros are always unnecessary, since a macro expansion compiles that form eventually into a form that does not contain the macro extension to the language.
2015-06-08T13:12:29Z loz1: well, the question was right about operations you cant implement with functions
2015-06-08T13:12:38Z Zhivago: So by definition, macros are unnecessary -- you must look elsewhere for the justification.
2015-06-08T13:12:45Z Zhivago: Please learn how to spell "can't".
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2015-06-08T13:13:11Z Zhivago: The place to look is 'convenience', 'expression', and 'compression'.
2015-06-08T13:13:27Z Zhivago: Understanding that they are compilers should help with understanding this.
2015-06-08T13:14:10Z standoo: https://github.com/tlikonen/cl-eval-bot
2015-06-08T13:14:25Z Zhivago: It's not hard to write a function that implements if.
2015-06-08T13:14:45Z Zhivago: Just implement your booleans as selector functions and pass closures though them.
2015-06-08T13:15:17Z H4ns: Zhivago: this channel is about common lisp, and you cannot implement CL:IF with a function.
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2015-06-08T13:15:58Z Zhivago: Ah. The expected answer to prevent all thought. :)
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2015-06-08T13:16:59Z jdz: Zhivago: what does the selector function you mentioned look like?
2015-06-08T13:17:30Z Zhivago: (defun true (yes no) (funcall yes)) (defun false (yes no) (funcall no))
2015-06-08T13:17:57Z jdz: i want my generalised booleans...
2015-06-08T13:17:59Z loz1: you still have to pass closures to if then
2015-06-08T13:18:11Z Zhivago: Sure, so what?
2015-06-08T13:18:18Z Zhivago: That's what macros are for. :)
2015-06-08T13:18:48Z jdz: this definitely is not about Common Lisp
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2015-06-08T13:24:00Z standoo: antoszka: so far i can limit time using bordeaux threads
2015-06-08T13:25:09Z antoszka: standoo: yeah, the bot I linked also uses a time limit for the bot-eval function.
2015-06-08T13:25:32Z standoo: antoszka: and maybe use something like this https://github.com/guicho271828/cl-rlimit/
2015-06-08T13:25:53Z standoo: antoszka: i'll probably need to see how racket does it
2015-06-08T13:26:31Z antoszka: Yeah, certainly have a look.
2015-06-08T13:26:44Z durm: thank you, guys
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2015-06-08T13:40:14Z standoo: antoszka: interestingly i can limit the memory of sbcl
2015-06-08T13:40:34Z standoo: antoszka: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/708861/coping-with-and-minimizing-memory-usage-in-common-lisp-sbcl
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2015-06-08T13:46:32Z antoszka: standoo: Don't know much about that. Guess the best place to talk about sbcl internals would be #sbcl.
2015-06-08T13:46:41Z theos: told you sbcl rocks
2015-06-08T13:47:07Z standoo: cool
2015-06-08T13:47:12Z standoo: i've learnt a lot today
2015-06-08T13:47:26Z standoo: you've all changed my mind from racket/scheme to common lisp
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2015-06-08T13:48:25Z antoszka: cool :)
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2015-06-08T13:53:38Z loz1: this is the purpose of this channel :D
2015-06-08T13:54:30Z nyef: Historically, the purpose of this channel was for SBCL developers to chat amongst themselves.
2015-06-08T13:57:22Z remi`bd: :D:
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2015-06-08T14:28:16Z theos: nyef history can always be modified :)
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2015-06-08T14:31:27Z nyef: theos: If you've got a time machine, I have a shopping list.
2015-06-08T14:31:58Z theos: nyef does a lisp machine count?
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2015-06-08T14:45:32Z remi`bd: yes, a lisp machine count as a time machine.
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2015-06-08T15:03:11Z Xof: historically, the purpose of this channel was for random people to talk about Multi-User Dungeons
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2015-06-08T15:04:20Z nyef: ... And, IIRC, gun control?
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2015-06-08T15:04:44Z Xof: oh yes
2015-06-08T15:04:47Z Xof: I'd forgotten about that
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2015-06-08T15:08:18Z theos: which version of "history" is more profitable?
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2015-06-08T15:09:18Z nyef: theos: The version where you have a time machine, so you can go back and obtain priceless historic artifacts as they are lost. Not to mention copies of books that are no longer available.
2015-06-08T15:09:58Z theos: nyef but how to make sure those things really existed and are not made up?
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2015-06-08T15:10:29Z nyef: That's a bit trickier.
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2015-06-08T15:11:33Z Zhivago: You get a certificate of authenticity to bring back with you.
2015-06-08T15:11:34Z jdz: that would be a problem that can be solved in presence of a time machine
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2015-06-08T15:11:46Z jdz: oh, damn, i read it wrong
2015-06-08T15:13:18Z p_l: nyef: heh, I remember a rather spirited discussion going on about human sexual behaviour
2015-06-08T15:13:36Z nyef: Another method is that you obtain your copies or your artifacts, and you relocate them to somewhere hidden and geologically stable. That way carbon dating and the like would show the correct ages.
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2015-06-08T15:18:09Z JordiGH: Land of Lisp recommends Clisp, so I'm trying to follow its recommendation so I can do its examples. I'm also attempting to use clisp with slime, but I'm getting this:
2015-06-08T15:18:12Z JordiGH: #P"/usr/share/common-lisp/source/slime/swank/clisp.lisp" @704>: there is no package with name "PXREF
2015-06-08T15:18:19Z JordiGH: "
2015-06-08T15:18:45Z Xach: JordiGH: it can be better to not get slime from the system package system, but through the emacs package system or quicklisp
2015-06-08T15:19:07Z JordiGH: I already tried quicklisp, same problem.
2015-06-08T15:19:17Z JordiGH: I assume clisp is to blame, not slime?
2015-06-08T15:19:36Z JordiGH: If I can avoid one-package-manager-per-programming-language, I'd rather do that.
2015-06-08T15:19:39Z H4ns: JordiGH: you installed clisp using the debian package system.  that is the cause.
2015-06-08T15:19:50Z Xach: JordiGH: You can't avoid it easily for Common Lisp.
2015-06-08T15:20:03Z JordiGH: Every programming language says the same thing, I don't believe it.
2015-06-08T15:20:05Z H4ns: JordiGH: if you want a good common lisp development experience, use sbcl, quicklisp and slime.
2015-06-08T15:20:05Z Xach: JordiGH: but /usr/share/common-lisp/... overrides quicklisp's copy
2015-06-08T15:20:10Z JordiGH: I'm sick of cabal, pip, npm...
2015-06-08T15:20:15Z H4ns: JordiGH: it is not a matter of belief.
2015-06-08T15:20:29Z H4ns: JordiGH: if you ignore our advice, you'll not have a pleasant time.  it is that simple.
2015-06-08T15:20:41Z JordiGH: Sure it is. I'd rather fix the Debian packaging of clisp than use another package manager per programming language.
2015-06-08T15:20:51Z JordiGH: So, the Debian packaging of clisp is missing a package?
2015-06-08T15:20:56Z Xach: that is fine. nobody has done it yet.
2015-06-08T15:21:00Z H4ns: JordiGH: enjoy your yak shaving.
2015-06-08T15:21:05Z Xach: It is not clear what is missing or misconfigured.
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2015-06-08T15:21:23Z JordiGH: "PXREF" doesn't mean anything to you flks?
2015-06-08T15:21:27Z JordiGH: folks*
2015-06-08T15:21:35Z Xach: it means portable xref.
2015-06-08T15:21:42Z H4ns: JordiGH: most of us use sbcl to begin with.
2015-06-08T15:21:45Z Xach: (cross-referencing for looking up source locations)
2015-06-08T15:21:55Z JordiGH: H4ns: Alright.
2015-06-08T15:22:03Z Xach: JordiGH: i don't think it's clisp, i think it's slime in this case.
2015-06-08T15:22:22Z JordiGH: Xach: Hm, I don't have this problem with sbcl.
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2015-06-08T15:22:33Z JordiGH: Is clisp trying to load a package that doesn't exist?
2015-06-08T15:22:44Z Xach: JordiGH: I don't know, sorry.
2015-06-08T15:22:52Z Xach: I don't use clisp or debian packaging of lisp stuff.
2015-06-08T15:22:52Z JordiGH: Okay, thanks, I'll keep working on this.
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2015-06-08T16:45:55Z remi`bd: JordiGH: there are language-specific packaging systems because you can’t expect each distribution to have a perfect & complete set of packages for every language
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2015-06-08T16:46:37Z remi`bd: the Lisp community waited a long time for this to happen, and then Quicklisp has been written.
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2015-06-08T16:47:27Z JordiGH: remi`bd: Yes, yes I can expect that, and I'll keep working towards that expectation.
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2015-06-08T16:47:55Z remi`bd: and it has been said you shalt use it, as it is currently the only way you canst have an updated Lisp system
2015-06-08T16:48:12Z Xach: Quicklisp works the way it does because it runs on Linux, Mac OS X, and Windows in approximately the same way in each place.
2015-06-08T16:48:34Z Xach: I am very glad if Quicklisp data could be used to make good Debian packages. dim is doing stuff like that.
2015-06-08T16:49:03Z Xach: My experiences with the packaging was so bad a while ago that I have avoided it ever since.
2015-06-08T16:49:28Z JordiGH: Can quicklisp uninstall? That's the usual thing that pip, cabal, npm, gems, cpan, and pear can't do right
2015-06-08T16:49:43Z remi`bd: shame on the Common Lisp Controller
2015-06-08T16:49:44Z JordiGH: Can it upgrade? Can it track versioned dependencies?
2015-06-08T16:49:51Z Shinmera: For a developer it's also simply not feasible to create packages for every distro and OS out there. Nobody would bother.
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2015-06-08T16:49:56Z remi`bd: JordiGH: it does
2015-06-08T16:49:59Z JordiGH: Can it guarantee that packages work well with each other?
2015-06-08T16:50:09Z JordiGH: remi`bd: Does it implement optional dependencies?
2015-06-08T16:50:17Z Xach: JordiGH: yes, yes, yes, no
2015-06-08T16:50:17Z JordiGH: Has it reimplemented everything about apt?
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2015-06-08T16:50:25Z Xach: No.
2015-06-08T16:50:33Z JordiGH: Okay, then I don't want it.
2015-06-08T16:50:37Z remi`bd: please, JordiGH, stop being so rude.
2015-06-08T16:50:48Z Xach: It's not rude to not want something that doesn't fit your needs.
2015-06-08T16:50:54Z JordiGH: There's nothing rude about not wanting quicklisp. It's rude of you to push it on me when I don't want it.
2015-06-08T16:51:22Z Xach: It is just a lonelier path without it.
2015-06-08T16:51:28Z JordiGH: I'm ok being lonely.
2015-06-08T16:51:30Z Shinmera: Not implementing optional dependencies is an ASDF problem though, not one of Quicklisp.
2015-06-08T16:52:21Z foom: "has it reimplemented everything about apt" is not a very useful question. ;p
2015-06-08T16:52:52Z remi`bd: JordiGH: well, I was actually pushing you, but I was refering to your abrupt way of asking questions, not your will to use whatever packaging system you want
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2015-06-08T16:53:06Z Xach is reminded of http://cr.yp.to/compatibility.html
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2015-06-08T16:53:56Z JordiGH: remi`bd: I am sorry, my good sir. I will make good care and practice to preface my questions with the proper protocols so that you do not find me curt or impolite, which was never my intention. I again implore you to forgive me for bombarding your with more questions than you cared to answer.
2015-06-08T16:54:03Z JordiGH: Or madam.
2015-06-08T16:54:27Z Shinmera: Can we not devolve this into a piss fest? Thanks.
2015-06-08T16:54:40Z JordiGH: Such uncouth language.
2015-06-08T16:54:50Z Shinmera sighs
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2015-06-08T16:56:08Z jasom: Xach: DJB got the command for his own tool wrong
2015-06-08T16:56:29Z jasom: Xach: it's svc -d to stop a service; svc -t will terminate it and then it will restart automatically
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2015-06-08T16:57:43Z Xach: I don't think that greatly takes away from the overall point, which is about the tension between platform familiarity and tool familiarity
2015-06-08T16:57:53Z jasom: yeah
2015-06-08T16:58:17Z jasom: someone wrote a tool to automatically package up quicklisp packages as debian packages
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2015-06-08T16:58:44Z Shinmera: https://github.com/dimitri/ql-to-deb
2015-06-08T16:59:16Z Xach: That's dim's work.
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2015-06-08T16:59:42Z jasom: right, he did it so pgloader would be buildable with just debian tools (which is some requirement for debian packages)
2015-06-08T17:00:56Z jasom: http://tapoueh.org/blog/2015/05/02-ql-to-deb.html
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2015-06-08T17:02:22Z Fade: pgloader is an amazing system.
2015-06-08T17:02:42Z Xach: To me, it was really cool to see Dave Cooper tell 80 people at ELS a single command that would set them up to try his demo, despite the fact that there were a dozen different platforms in use by the attendees. But I get the desire to go the other way, too.
2015-06-08T17:03:02Z Xach: I get it but am not investing any personal effort in that direction.
2015-06-08T17:03:10Z jasom: yeah, dim *really* seems to care aboug getting things right
2015-06-08T17:03:28Z Fade: his work is incredibly impressive.
2015-06-08T17:03:43Z JordiGH: This ql-to-deb thing does seem interesting.
2015-06-08T17:03:55Z JordiGH: Colourful, too.
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2015-06-08T17:04:56Z Quadrescence: Whoa, it's JordiGH
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2015-06-08T17:06:30Z jasom: JordiGH: on a side-note, most ASDF systems get away without having versioned dependencies because the pace of development of most lisp libraries is such that breaking changes are relatively rare
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2015-06-08T17:14:46Z PuercoPop: and ql doesn't have optional dependencies because that is a feature of ASDF, not ql.
2015-06-08T17:15:12Z Shinmera: PuercoPop: or rather, not a feature, as I already pointed out.
2015-06-08T17:15:48Z Xach: Well, since quicklisp statically indexes everything, even if asdf grew the feature, it could be tricky to get it working with quicklisp.
2015-06-08T17:16:16Z didi: Suppose I am writing a package with an exported function that takes as an argument a list of symbols and lists. This function works by interpreting the symbols from this list. Symbols from different packages are not eq[l][ual][ualp] and I don't want to use keywords. Is comparing `symbol-name' of symbols an acceptable alternative?
2015-06-08T17:16:46Z Bike: didi: it's what loop does, at least
2015-06-08T17:16:48Z jasom: ASDF does have optional dependencies, since you can use feature flags in a .asd file
2015-06-08T17:16:54Z didi: Bike: Oh, interesting.
2015-06-08T17:17:10Z Bike: i'd say it depends on what you're doing though. like, if these were class names you would want to use actual symbols.
2015-06-08T17:17:19Z jasom: it's just not really a good idea; much simpler to have a foo/uses-bar system and a foo/doesnt-use-bar system
2015-06-08T17:18:21Z didi: Bike: Ah, I see. In my case, they are atomic, if the nomenclature makes sense.
2015-06-08T17:18:56Z Bike: i don't know what that means, no
2015-06-08T17:20:09Z didi: Sorry. Hum, `foo::bar' and `baz::bar' should be interpreted the same. `bar' is the symbol I am interested in, no matter from where it comes from.
2015-06-08T17:20:40Z jasom: didi: why are you using symbols instead of strings or keywords then?
2015-06-08T17:21:17Z didi: jasom: Strings are harder to manipulate and keywords need to be prefixed by `:', which makes it less convenient to type.
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2015-06-08T17:21:56Z jasom: didi: symbol-name will give you the name of the symbol; it generally isn't considered good style (the LOOP macro notwithstanding)
2015-06-08T17:22:10Z didi: jasom: oic. Thank you.
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2015-06-08T17:22:54Z jasom: though if you are just making a DSL and you don't want to have to export all the identifiers, then I wouldn't call it a terrible idea (and this is what LOOP does)
2015-06-08T17:23:06Z didi nods
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2015-06-08T17:23:39Z jasom: a big advantage of symbols is that foo:bar and baz:bar are distinct names, and this is one of the things that allows CL to get away without hygienic macros
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2015-06-08T17:24:06Z bizarrefish: Elo
2015-06-08T17:24:19Z jasom: bizarrefish: they are a pretty good band
2015-06-08T17:24:40Z bizarrefish: They're a band?
2015-06-08T17:24:42Z bizarrefish: :/
2015-06-08T17:24:46Z H4ns: *shiver*
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2015-06-08T17:25:00Z bizarrefish: Ah, electric light orchestra. Withya
2015-06-08T17:25:01Z Bike: electric light orchestra, lookemup
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2015-06-08T17:29:46Z PuercoPop: Shinmera: ASDF does have optional dependencies using feature flags.
2015-06-08T17:30:27Z Shinmera: PuercoPop: That's a hack, not really a solution.
2015-06-08T17:31:08Z jasom: Shinmera: I don't really see it as such; "optional dependency" is a fairly vague term anyway
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2015-06-08T17:31:53Z PuercoPop: Shinmera: are you talking about using #+/- reader macros as a hack? Because asdf has explicit support for features w/o the reader macro
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2015-06-08T17:32:20Z jasom: "I want optional dependencies" doesn't tell me what rule needs to be used to decide when to pull in a dependency
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2015-06-08T17:35:09Z Shinmera: PuercoPop: yeah, but feature flags are not tied to systems. That's an extra thing you need to configure separately.
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2015-06-08T17:35:40Z Shinmera: Hence why I call it a hack, rather than an intentional way of configuring optional dependencies.
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2015-06-08T17:53:21Z cheryllium: I wonder if there'd be any interest in a Lisp library that plays sounds on Windows using mci. I wrote a simple one last night after failing to get mixalot to work
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2015-06-08T17:55:03Z cheryllium: I used CFFI and so far the thing I have can open, play, pause, stop and close mp3 files. It's pretty simple but pretty cool
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2015-06-08T17:55:35Z eudoxia: cheryllium: you should totally upload it and add it to quicklisp
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2015-06-08T18:13:15Z cheryllium: Here it is for those interested https://github.com/cheryllium/cl-mci
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2015-06-08T18:17:48Z cheryllium: I'm still learning a lot of things, so I would love suggestions on what to do next with this.
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2015-06-08T18:27:47Z Fare: JordiGH, if you want to fix the debian packaging of clisp, there is much to do
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2015-06-08T18:28:30Z Fare: start by grabbing the latest clisp source, and replace its asdf by the latest asdf. Maybe become clisp maintainer and release an official clisp with it.
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2015-06-08T18:38:57Z JordiGH: I have in fact considered attempting to become a clisp release maintainer. Everyone seems to think clisp is a dead toy implementation, though.
2015-06-08T18:39:09Z JordiGH: And its lead dev is really nuts.
2015-06-08T18:39:21Z JordiGH: But as long as I stay away from political topics with him, he might be ok.
2015-06-08T18:40:17Z jaykru_: how is he nuts exactly?
2015-06-08T18:40:25Z remi`bd: he writes in Lisp
2015-06-08T18:40:33Z jaykru_: lol
2015-06-08T18:40:35Z JordiGH: lol
2015-06-08T18:40:39Z remi`bd: (sorry, that was easy)
2015-06-08T18:41:16Z JordiGH: No, he's got these anti-Muslim diatribes on his personal website.
2015-06-08T18:41:27Z JordiGH: Pretty racistish.
2015-06-08T18:42:08Z fe[nl]ix: it's not a toy implementation, it's actually quite sophisticated
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2015-06-08T18:43:17Z JordiGH: How come it's not popular?
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2015-06-08T18:45:13Z jackdaniel: it isn't? afair it was proposed implementation by a few CL books
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2015-06-08T18:46:22Z Bike: it's kind of weird to use, but it's not a toy or nothing.
2015-06-08T18:46:25Z JordiGH: Yeah, I started using it because Land of Lisp recommends it.
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2015-06-08T18:47:11Z oGMo: isn't it written in the author's pet language, rather than lisp?
2015-06-08T18:47:27Z JordiGH: Looks like C to me.
2015-06-08T18:47:30Z JordiGH checks again.
2015-06-08T18:47:33Z JordiGH: (Well, and lisp)
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2015-06-08T18:47:42Z Bike: i think ogmo meant LoL.
2015-06-08T18:47:54Z oGMo: i meant CLISP
2015-06-08T18:48:01Z Bike: oh, oops.
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2015-06-08T18:48:17Z Bike: pretty sure there's a lot of C, yeah.
2015-06-08T18:48:19Z JordiGH: Yeah, clisp looks like C and lisp.
2015-06-08T18:48:20Z jackdaniel: it's written in C afaik
2015-06-08T18:48:25Z jackdaniel: and lisp obviously
2015-06-08T18:48:34Z jaykru_: yeah
2015-06-08T18:48:35Z oGMo: no, it's written in "d", and not _that_ D, iirc
2015-06-08T18:48:50Z oGMo: looking at the source tree for 2.49 at least, I see lots of *.d
2015-06-08T18:49:08Z jaykru_: I think probably one of the big reasons barksi chose clisp was the built in readline support clisp has
2015-06-08T18:49:15Z jackdaniel: oGMo: isn't it just source file for dpp?
2015-06-08T18:49:46Z Bike: http://www.gnu.org/software/clisp/impnotes/src-preprocessing.html
2015-06-08T18:50:00Z oGMo: jackdaniel: i suppose i'd have to go through manually to tell, but it looks like a lot of core-sounding things in src/
2015-06-08T18:50:07Z Bike: this does look kind of silly
2015-06-08T18:50:09Z jaykru_: JordiGH can you link me to some of the author's diatribes?
2015-06-08T18:50:34Z jaykru_: I guess the menorah that shows on launch makes a little more sense if he's an extremist zionist
2015-06-08T18:50:36Z oGMo: i think even if it was written in C, it would be easier to get maintained
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2015-06-08T18:52:14Z jackdaniel: clisp is written in C wrt Bike link. On the other hand ECL is written in C also, but *all* sources has .d extension and are preprocessed because contain a few lispsisms
2015-06-08T18:52:30Z jackdaniel: all c sources has .d extension°
2015-06-08T18:53:03Z oGMo: the source also looks pretty horrific at a glance
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2015-06-08T18:54:49Z jackdaniel dives back into kernel hacking \o
2015-06-08T18:54:56Z oGMo: jackdaniel: lisp? ;)
2015-06-08T18:55:09Z jackdaniel: no, linux ^_^
2015-06-08T18:55:18Z oGMo: aw .. fun though
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2015-06-08T19:03:41Z JordiGH: jaykru_: Mysteriously, Sam Steingold's homepage seems down: http://sds.podval.org/commies.html
2015-06-08T19:03:51Z jaykru_: lmao commies
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2015-06-08T19:04:46Z JordiGH: jaykru_: I'm not sure he's wacko zionist... I don't like when "Zionist" is used in the same sense of "anti-Muslim". He's definitely got some pretty weird personal opinions.
2015-06-08T19:05:11Z jaykru_: http://puu.sh/ihjRT/35d68c7a0f.png jesus christ
2015-06-08T19:05:36Z H4ns: take your off topic stuff somewhere else, please.
2015-06-08T19:05:50Z jaykru_: sorry about that
2015-06-08T19:06:26Z JordiGH: jaykru_: How did you find that?
2015-06-08T19:06:39Z jaykru_: archive.org let's get back on topic though, JordiGH
2015-06-08T19:07:09Z JordiGH: Oh, topic police is on duty around here?
2015-06-08T19:07:13Z JordiGH: I'm used to #emacs, sorry.
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2015-06-08T19:15:41Z PuercoPop: jaykru_: also uses clisp's socket specific library midway through the book. It is trivial to port it to usocket. But I think he wanted to make it easy to get started.
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2015-06-08T19:16:39Z pjb: minion: memo for didi: you wouldn't call symbol-name to compare symbols, but string= !  If you want to ensure symbols, you would write (and (symbolp x) (string= x 'hello)).
2015-06-08T19:16:39Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell didi when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-06-08T19:17:40Z fe[nl]ix: JordiGH: clisp is difficult to build, and at this point unmaintained
2015-06-08T19:17:56Z fe[nl]ix: there's a Debian package if you're using that, but it's old
2015-06-08T19:18:04Z JordiGH: fe[nl]ix: I managed to build it, but it segfaulted during its tests.
2015-06-08T19:18:19Z JordiGH: The problem is libsigsegv, I think, which is used by other GNU packages.
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2015-06-08T19:18:33Z JordiGH: So it might be worthwhile to fix libsigsegv.
2015-06-08T19:18:37Z fe[nl]ix: not that many
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2015-06-08T19:19:27Z JordiGH: No, true, but it does give me a bit of motivation to fix the thing.
2015-06-08T19:19:29Z fe[nl]ix: and you made my point, it's difficult to get a correct combination of gcc/clisp/libsigsegv
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2015-06-08T19:21:09Z fe[nl]ix: and libffcall, that one tends to break with new gcc versions too
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2015-06-08T19:21:56Z pjb: JordiGH: #lispcafe is intended to be the #emacs of #lisp.
2015-06-08T19:22:32Z pjb: clisp is not difficult to build. But since it's written in C, it has a lot of C libraries dependencies, hence the difficulties.
2015-06-08T19:22:42Z pjb: The main problem of clisp is that it's written in C.
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2015-06-08T19:24:53Z JordiGH: fe[nl]ix: There's been a lot of work since the last clisp release, though. Do you think it's worthwhile trying to release that?
2015-06-08T19:25:36Z fe[nl]ix: I don't know, I haven't used it in the meanwhile
2015-06-08T19:25:39Z fe[nl]ix: you call
2015-06-08T19:25:43Z fe[nl]ix: *your
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2015-06-08T19:37:08Z JordiGH: Yeah, that's kind of the thing, right? If nobody's using clisp, what's the point?
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2015-06-08T19:43:35Z jasom: pjb: it's not just written in C, it's written in only marginally portable C.
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2015-06-08T19:47:28Z mood: What's the current state of package-local nicknames support in different implementations? SBCL has it, ABCL seems to, how about others?
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2015-06-08T19:49:32Z pjb: JordiGH: I use it, all the time.
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2015-06-08T19:53:12Z kristof: Someone mentioned that clisp was pretty sophisticated. From what I recall, it has an experimental JIT compiler backend using GNU Lightning
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2015-06-08T19:55:00Z kristof: I was going to say it would be interesting to see how CLisp performs if it moves its backend to LLVM but I had momentarily forgotten that Clasp is already such an implementation :P
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2015-06-08T19:58:56Z fe[nl]ix: kristof: I think that the target of Clasp is different from Clisp
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2015-06-08T20:05:43Z fe[nl]ix: kristof: Clisp already has one of the fastest bytecode interpreters I've ever seen
2015-06-08T20:07:41Z oGMo: also isn't llvm's bitcode not particularly fast anyway?
2015-06-08T20:08:13Z jasom: oGMo: correct, llvm is primarily a compiler IR
2015-06-08T20:08:28Z jasom: designed to be either JITed or statically compiled to machine code
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2015-06-08T20:10:13Z fe[nl]ix: the main problem with Clisp is that it relies on undefined behaviour so it will be broken by even minor GCC updates
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2015-06-08T20:14:45Z oGMo: jasom: that was my impression
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2015-06-08T20:23:00Z akkad: There really should be a PSA to not pay for Allegro for performance reasons.
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2015-06-08T20:25:56Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: I've once looked into a piece of CLISP internals and then followed a thread by the author of that piece
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2015-06-08T20:26:11Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: it was probably the single thing that keeps me the most from using CLISP
2015-06-08T20:26:37Z p_l: akkad: hmm?
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2015-06-08T20:41:56Z Fare wonders where to publish https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/blob/minimakefile/tools/failure.lisp
2015-06-08T20:42:14Z Fare: create a new library just for that???
2015-06-08T20:42:35Z pjb: Done.
2015-06-08T20:42:48Z Fare: or maybe a new cl-scripting library in which to put that and other utilities useful in writing scripts
2015-06-08T20:43:17Z Fare: pjb: right now it's tied to asdf testing tools in a branch that isn't official — not a good way to publish it.
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2015-06-08T20:49:57Z kristof: fe[nl]ix: Oh, I wasn't aware that JIT compilation of LLVM IR wasn't very good
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2015-06-08T20:50:40Z fe[nl]ix: yeah
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2015-06-08T21:00:40Z pjb: Fare: it seems the majority prefer small independent libraries.  Fork it off to its own git repo and tell Xach to include it in quicklisp.
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2015-06-08T21:05:05Z fourier: pjb: +1
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2015-06-08T21:10:38Z Fare checks that no one has created a cl-scripting yet
2015-06-08T21:10:47Z Fare: github? gitlab.common-lisp.net ?
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2015-06-08T21:15:49Z fourier: I would use github, it is easiest and hassle free, and people will easily fork out they like the lib and would like to do some modifications
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2015-06-08T21:20:03Z pjb: I'd advise gitlab the successor of gitorious.
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2015-06-08T21:37:26Z mea-culpa: why step doesn't work on sbcl as it's written in paip?
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2015-06-08T21:39:30Z pjb: some implementations are incomplete, and the exact behavior of step is implementation dependant anyways (and also, optimize dependant).
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2015-06-08T21:39:42Z pjb: mea-culpa: for a conforming step utility, you can use cl-stepper.
2015-06-08T21:40:14Z pjb:  com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp.stepper
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2015-06-08T21:43:07Z mea-culpa: okay, thanks
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2015-06-08T21:48:33Z dim: discovering gitlab on common-lisp.net, interesting
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2015-06-08T22:06:35Z attila_lendvai: luis: make sure you know those libs pjb just mentioned above...
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2015-06-08T22:36:24Z Fare: OK, here it goes: https://github.com/fare/cl-scripting
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2015-06-08T23:07:23Z jasom: Fare: when did cl-launch gain the ability to do multi-dispatch binaries?
2015-06-08T23:08:54Z Fare: jasom: quite recently.
2015-06-08T23:09:22Z Fare: April 21, says the git log.
2015-06-08T23:09:42Z Fare: Actually, April 1st.
2015-06-08T23:09:48Z Fare: So... maybe it's a joke.
2015-06-08T23:12:03Z Fare: See my post on CL as a scripting language 2015 edition: fare.livejournal.com/184127.html
2015-06-08T23:13:43Z jasom: Fare: FWIW sbcl with lz4hc core compression generates reasonably sized binaries with quick startup
2015-06-08T23:14:08Z Fare: jasom: can you add this feature to cl-launch?
2015-06-08T23:14:35Z jasom: I don't know if it's in stable sbcl yet; I prototyped it, and someone else took up the work to get it incorporated
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2015-06-08T23:15:08Z Fare: how fast can it be to uncompress 80MB of heap?
2015-06-08T23:15:49Z jasom: lz4 decompresses faster than RAM, but slower than L2
2015-06-08T23:16:28Z jasom: IIRC it's a few GB/s
2015-06-08T23:16:36Z Fare: without decompression, my 80MB images start in about .03 seconds.
2015-06-08T23:16:51Z jasom looks for his benchmarks
2015-06-08T23:17:00Z Fare: how much slower would it be with compression?
2015-06-08T23:17:49Z jasom: it was sub 100ms on my machine
2015-06-08T23:18:41Z Fare: still more than I would like to pay for my handy scripts
2015-06-08T23:18:59Z Fare: but probably small enough that it wouldn't matter on non-interactive programs.
2015-06-08T23:19:31Z jasom: it was definitely fast enough for interactive programs
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2015-06-08T23:20:13Z jasom: the only number I can find written down is 5x faster than the zlib compression
2015-06-08T23:21:05Z jasom: and zlib was too slow for interactive programs for me
2015-06-08T23:21:16Z Fare: well, my interactive scripts themselves tend to `run-program` other programs, so overhead in starting the script only counts as a fraction of the total latency that must be kept under .08s or so to feel "instantaneous".
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2015-06-08T23:23:06Z jasom: .05s according to the mailing list
2015-06-08T23:24:58Z jasom: https://github.com/orivej/sbcl <-- there it is if you want to try it out
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2015-06-08T23:27:40Z jasom: The patch was submitted right before a release, and pvk didn't want to merge it before the release; it looks like it got dropped since.
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2015-06-08T23:30:49Z Fare: :-/
2015-06-08T23:30:58Z jasom just pinged the list
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2015-06-08T23:31:07Z Fare: .05s is acceptable!
2015-06-08T23:31:38Z Fare: well, it doesn't leave much time for the OTHER stuff to happen and still appear instantaneous, but at least it does leave some time.
2015-06-08T23:31:45Z jasom: The unique feature of lz4 is crazy-fast decompress
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2015-06-08T23:32:30Z jasom: ~2GB/s on a 2.7GHz Core-i5
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2015-06-08T23:33:17Z Fare: would be nice to have that in sbcl master, indeed
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2015-06-08T23:33:54Z jasom: When I prototyped it, I couldn't figure out why it was so much slower than loading from disk (I think maybe sbcl cheats and mmaps or something?) as streaming lz4 should be roughly as fast as memcpy
2015-06-08T23:34:55Z jasom: but it was still a whole lot faster than the existing zlib, while being only about 10% larger
2015-06-08T23:34:56Z Fare: sbcl definitely mmaps, so if the memory never gets touched and there's no GC, big win.
2015-06-08T23:35:15Z jasom: yeah, I was doing read().
2015-06-08T23:35:43Z jasom: also SBCL got a lot faster at image loading approximately 3 years ago.
2015-06-08T23:35:53Z jasom: It went from being about twice the time of CCL to a wash
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2015-06-08T23:36:44Z Fare: did they eschew a lot of C dynamic loading adjustments?
2015-06-08T23:36:57Z jasom wrote a toy "make" replacement in lisp and it recursively called itself a *lot* so I was a bit obsessive about image load times
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2015-06-08T23:37:30Z jasom: Fare: I don't know what they did; I just remembered that I mentioned in here that CCL was 2x faster and someone else told me to rerun my benchmarks
2015-06-08T23:37:58Z jasom: https://github.com/jasom/image-bench  <-- there is my benchmark, btw
2015-06-08T23:40:12Z Fare: my eyes hurt reading a shell script.
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2015-06-08T23:42:16Z jasom: test.do is the ugly one: pipe to a subshell execution of read
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2015-06-08T23:45:43Z physixer: so if I say (defun sq (lambda (x) (* x x))) ... and then can I do something like (suchthat sq(x) 36) to get 6?
2015-06-08T23:47:18Z jasom: physixer: in the general case, the problem is undecidable
2015-06-08T23:47:53Z physixer: or (defun sqrt (lambda (y) (suchthat sq(x) y)))
2015-06-08T23:47:55Z jasom: physixer: there are plenty of symbolic algebra systems for lisp, any one of which can solve algebraic problems though.
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2015-06-08T23:49:10Z jasom: also you're using some weird sort of hybrid between scheme and lisp for defining your functions...
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2015-06-08T23:49:51Z physixer: jasom: yeah I learned scheme and then tried to be a smart-ass by replacing define with defun and hoping no one will catch that.
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2015-06-08T23:51:31Z jasom: consider: (defun foo (x) (random 10)) (suchthat foo(x) 7) => ?
2015-06-08T23:53:00Z physixer: but this is problematic because of the randomness?
2015-06-08T23:53:11Z jasom: not necessarily randomness
2015-06-08T23:53:29Z Zhivago: How about writing a DEFINE macro?
2015-06-08T23:53:43Z jasom: there are fully deterministic functions that are non-trivially reversible
2015-06-08T23:54:05Z Zhivago: Then it could translate (define (sq x) (* x x)) into (defun sq (x) (* x x)), etc.
2015-06-08T23:54:34Z jasom: (suchthat md5(x) #x595f44fec1e92a71d3e9e77456ba80d1)
2015-06-08T23:55:21Z physixer: jasom: so multi-valued function
2015-06-08T23:55:37Z jasom: physixer: no, just a function that is non-trivially reversible
2015-06-08T23:55:52Z jasom: secure hashes are one example (they are only secure if they are non-trivially reversible)
2015-06-08T23:56:07Z physixer: hmm
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2015-06-08T23:56:16Z jasom: but they are also fully determined by their inputs
2015-06-08T23:57:22Z nyef: ODDP is another one, fully determined by its input, yet not easy to reverse.
2015-06-08T23:57:39Z jasom: heh
2015-06-08T23:58:09Z jasom: it's easy to reverse: (defun reverse-oddp (output) (if output 1 0))
2015-06-08T23:59:04Z jasom: squaring isn't reversible either; IIRC every real number has two square roots
2015-06-08T23:59:23Z jasom:  (suchthat sq(x) 36) => -6
2015-06-09T00:04:07Z Bike: if it's a bijection and it's total it can be reversed. i wonder what the complexity of that given the algorithm is, more specifically than "really bad"
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2015-06-09T00:10:22Z physixer: Bike: I watched a Norvig video (for python) recently and he explained it as a search problem. It's fairly efficient (to put in layman terms) if the stepsize is doubled at every iteration, and then halved, and so on.
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2015-06-09T00:10:32Z pillton: jasom Bike physixer: (cos theta) = 0.
2015-06-09T00:11:52Z Bike: yes, that's why i specified "bijection"
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2015-06-09T00:13:10Z Bike: physixer: that sounds like it's using continuity also
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2015-06-09T00:15:46Z physixer: Bike: yes he was doing some continuous monotonically increasing function.
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2015-06-09T00:16:53Z Bike: well, with those constraints you could probably write suchthat reasonably easily, sure.
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2015-06-09T00:25:56Z pillton: The proximity operator for the l-infinity norm requires one of those searches.
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2015-06-09T01:33:23Z Kudos2me2: omg lmao!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR_GkTLg
2015-06-09T01:33:27Z Kudos2me2: omg lmao!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR_GkTLg
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2015-06-09T02:47:17Z theos:  This video does not exist.  :/
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2015-06-09T03:10:55Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-06-09T03:11:28Z kristof: good morning
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2015-06-09T03:13:28Z jaykru: good evening
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2015-06-09T03:15:39Z Oladon: Evening beach :)
2015-06-09T03:18:02Z theos: hey
2015-06-09T03:18:07Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-06-09T03:19:01Z theos thinks every prof has a dream to retire on a beach_
2015-06-09T03:20:10Z beach: Turns out my current bootstrapping strategy requires quite a lot of memory.  On my dinky 32-bit laptop, SBCL gives me 1/2 GB by default and 1GB max (that's how much RAM the laptop has) and this is not enough. :(
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2015-06-09T03:20:59Z theos: buy more ram :D
2015-06-09T03:21:16Z beach: Might be possible but not sure.
2015-06-09T03:21:42Z beach: But I am not going to make the bootstrapping more complicated just because of that, so I just have to work on other things while on my laptop.
2015-06-09T03:22:15Z theos: you can always try to convince the headmaster to let you use the university servers :D
2015-06-09T03:22:30Z Fare: beach: today's small laptops come with 4GB RAM.
2015-06-09T03:22:40Z beach: Oh, I have computing power elsewhere.  That's not the problem.
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2015-06-09T03:23:04Z beach: Fare: Yeah, this one is a few years old.  And it was sold as a "netbook".
2015-06-09T03:23:30Z Bike: oh neat, someone else uses one of these things.
2015-06-09T03:23:40Z beach: It works very well, so I hate throwing it away.
2015-06-09T03:25:13Z theos: you can use it as a front end to control a supercomputer in the basement
2015-06-09T03:26:15Z beach: If I am near the basement, I am also near my desktop machine which has enough RAM.
2015-06-09T03:27:04Z beach: theos: But I get the point.  Thanks.
2015-06-09T03:27:55Z theos needs a supercomputer in his basement too. but first he needs a basement.
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2015-06-09T03:28:34Z Fare: beach: you don't have to throw it away. You can make it a home server, just like I made Rebecca's old laptop into my home server (running NixOS).
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2015-06-09T03:29:39Z Fare: I see very decent laptops under $700.
2015-06-09T03:29:43Z nyef: I used a (maxed out) netbook for a few years, until I dropped it by accident, torquing the case so that it wouldn't close properly anymore, leading to it triggering wake-from-suspend events from simply closing the lid too hard.
2015-06-09T03:30:32Z nyef: Most painful aspect of the overall netbook experience was that a lot of software isn't designed for 600-pixel-high screens.
2015-06-09T03:32:14Z beach: Yeah, I basically only use it when I travel.
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2015-06-09T03:32:40Z beach: It is perfect in some sense because it can be unfolded in an airplane seat.
2015-06-09T03:33:45Z beach: Fare: Yes, money is not a problem.
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2015-06-09T03:41:21Z Fare: I was excited that Duolingo had a vietnamese module... but it was English for Vietnamese speakers, not Vietnamese for English speakers.
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2015-06-09T03:41:39Z jaykru_: I know the feeling :(
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2015-06-09T03:41:43Z Brozo: I want Korean for english speakers
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2015-06-09T03:43:11Z beach: Fare: Oh, are you planning to learn more?
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2015-06-09T03:46:31Z JuanitoJons: Hello I have sbcl version 2:1.2.12-1, and I have created a simple function   http://paste.lisp.org/display/149440, into the top-level works ok, but the same function in a file when  I try to redefine the function I get an error.
2015-06-09T03:47:59Z JuanitoJons: the slime command is C-c C-c
2015-06-09T03:48:14Z pillton: I think this problem is fixed in the latest version of SLIME.
2015-06-09T03:48:24Z Fare: beach: eventually
2015-06-09T03:48:47Z JuanitoJons: I have update by quicklisp
2015-06-09T03:48:57Z Fare: has anyone got an opinion on sly vs slime ?
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2015-06-09T03:49:44Z Zhivago: Brozo: You might find lang-8 useful for Korean.
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2015-06-09T03:50:23Z pillton: JuanitoJons: Is it version 2.14?
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2015-06-09T03:51:35Z JuanitoJons: pillton: not, is  debian sbcl 2:1.2.12-1, is the last sbcl version.
2015-06-09T03:52:07Z pillton: JuanitoJons: Sorry. Is your version of SLIME 2.14?
2015-06-09T03:52:33Z JuanitoJons: pillton: let me check.
2015-06-09T03:53:04Z pillton: JuanitoJons: The other alternative is to use SBCL 1.2.11 and wait for 1.2.13.
2015-06-09T03:53:46Z JuanitoJons: pillton: the version is slime-2.13
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2015-06-09T03:57:54Z JuanitoJons: pillton: thank you.
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2015-06-09T04:03:21Z pillton: JuanitoJons: No worries. There may be a better alternative that I am not aware of.
2015-06-09T04:06:39Z beach needs to understand about CALL-METHOD and MAKE-METHOD.
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2015-06-09T04:10:55Z theos: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_call_m.htm
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2015-06-09T04:21:28Z beach: CALL-METHOD and MAKE-METHOD represent some of the few cases where the authors of the Common Lisp standards document had something in mind, but didn't do a very good job communicating what it was.
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2015-06-09T04:22:26Z beach: So, basically, one has to keep guessing until the hypothesis makes sense while reading the Common Lisp HyperSpec page.
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2015-06-09T04:23:17Z Bike: i think they're only in method combinations anyway.
2015-06-09T04:24:21Z beach: Yes, and that is what I am implementing.
2015-06-09T04:25:25Z beach: Since they are LOCAL macros, I need to understand what form would introduce them.
2015-06-09T04:26:05Z Bike: let me see, i looked it up once...
2015-06-09T04:27:33Z Bike: sbcl does a bunch of non macroy things with it, how bout that
2015-06-09T04:28:15Z beach: SBCL CLOS is PCL-based, so it might be from PCL.
2015-06-09T04:28:25Z Bike: a 2006 comment says "This is wrong. Very wrong"
2015-06-09T04:28:34Z beach: Heh!
2015-06-09T04:29:10Z beach: This is why I try first to understand what the specification means.  As opposed to starting by looking at source code.
2015-06-09T04:29:55Z Bike: i'm dumb, so i need examples
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2015-06-09T04:31:10Z Bike: sbcl isn't the best for that, since pcl is a horrid mess
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2015-06-09T04:32:33Z pillton: Is it make-method-lambda?
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2015-06-09T04:33:34Z beach: That would be my guess.
2015-06-09T04:33:40Z Zhivago: I think that were I designing CLOS today, I'd remove multiple dispatch, and have it based on curried single-dispatchers.
2015-06-09T04:34:49Z Zhivago: Given extensible single dispatchers it would all be a lot simpler and more flexible.
2015-06-09T04:34:56Z Bike: now i'm not even sure it's actually a local macro. blaaaaah
2015-06-09T04:35:34Z Zhivago: You could get rid of methods, for one. :)
2015-06-09T04:35:48Z pillton: beach: It certainly seems that way with my code.
2015-06-09T04:36:09Z jasom: beach: re: laptop with dinky RAM, I hear they invented something called "virtual memory" that lets you swap core to magnetic storage.  It's all the rage these days.
2015-06-09T04:36:24Z pillton: beach: "My code" meaning my problem which programmatically creates methods.
2015-06-09T04:36:31Z White_Flame: it's also all the rage-inducing these days
2015-06-09T04:36:50Z Zhivago: jasom: Particularly with SSD.
2015-06-09T04:37:07Z beach: jasom: Sure.
2015-06-09T04:37:18Z jasom: boot-strapping clasp took something like 12GB of ram at one point, and I built it on two machines with 4 and 8 gb respectively
2015-06-09T04:37:19Z beach: jasom: I suspect I would be swamped by swapping though.
2015-06-09T04:37:52Z jasom: though I did get hit by overcommit the first-time when I had a parellel build enabled
2015-06-09T04:38:07Z beach: pillton: I am going to use that as a hypothesis and see how that works out.  Thanks.
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2015-06-09T04:39:27Z jasom: Bike: I find closette to be more readable than pcl (not surprising since I think the former was made specifically for didactic purposes)
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2015-06-09T04:39:47Z beach: jasom: I will keep that in mind.  Since I rarely use the dinky laptop, my motivation is only moderate.
2015-06-09T04:39:51Z Bike: yeah, i just don't have M-. for closette
2015-06-09T04:40:33Z jasom: beach: well ~3GB is the limit for 32-bit anyway...
2015-06-09T04:41:50Z beach: Oh, right you are.  That might not be enough.
2015-06-09T04:42:05Z pillton: beach: http://www.alu.org/mop/dictionary.html#make-method-lambda
2015-06-09T04:42:30Z beach: mop m-m-l
2015-06-09T04:42:31Z specbot: make-method-lambda: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/make-method-lambda.html
2015-06-09T04:43:04Z pillton: beach: Oh my apologies. I have misread an example.
2015-06-09T04:43:57Z beach: Oh. :(
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2015-06-09T04:46:23Z Bike: i think sbcl actually has a pseudo-compiler that runs through results from method combinations dealing with call-method.
2015-06-09T04:46:27Z Bike: that's enough pcl for one night, i think
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2015-06-09T04:47:15Z beach: Bike: Yes, that I think I saw at some point.  Presumably to know whether the standard signature with a list of next methods is required.
2015-06-09T04:47:51Z Bike: i wonder if call-method is actually a local macro or not, hrm
2015-06-09T04:48:34Z beach: I don't think it is required to be.
2015-06-09T04:48:53Z beach: The Common Lisp HyperSpec page says that it is unspecified whether it is fbound in the global environment.
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2015-06-09T04:52:22Z Bike: nope, no local macro.
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2015-06-09T04:59:25Z Bike: i must have been thinking of ccl, which does actually define a local macro
2015-06-09T05:00:29Z pjb: jasom: http://aegis.sourceforge.net/auug97.pdf
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2015-06-09T05:04:25Z pjb: jasom: 0 doesn't have two square roots.
2015-06-09T05:04:38Z Bike: sure it does! zero, and then zero again
2015-06-09T05:05:26Z beach: Seriously guys?  Are you going to argue about this now?
2015-06-09T05:05:42Z Bike: nah
2015-06-09T05:05:58Z Bike: anyway, ccl's is in lib/method-combination if you wanna take a look
2015-06-09T05:06:20Z beach: Great!  Thanks!
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2015-06-09T05:08:32Z beach: So if it is not local, it must always have the same definition.  That also helps in order to understand the thinking of the spec authors.
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2015-06-09T05:42:52Z beach: Hmm, in fact, the changes I am thinking of making to the SICL bootstrapping process will likely consume even more memory.
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2015-06-09T05:45:03Z beach: The main problem, I think, is that when I translate HIR to Common Lisp and then let the host Common Lisp compiler work on the result, the resulting native code is very big.
2015-06-09T05:46:56Z beach: I am thinking this because the main time spent during bootstrapping is in the register-allocation phase of the SBCL compiler.
2015-06-09T05:48:09Z ggole: Maybe you have lots of temporaries
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2015-06-09T05:48:24Z beach: Yes, that is the problem.
2015-06-09T05:48:34Z beach: The HIR code contains lots and lots of temporaries.
2015-06-09T05:48:45Z beach: I could do a pre-pass and eliminate most of them.
2015-06-09T05:49:30Z ggole: Some compilers use graph colouring allocators that represent the interference graph with a bitset that has an row for each temporary vs each temporary, eg, O(n^2) space
2015-06-09T05:49:37Z ggole: Dunno if SBCL is one of those, though
2015-06-09T05:49:51Z beach: Ah, interesting idea.
2015-06-09T05:50:03Z Fare: beach: what's hogging memory in SICL?
2015-06-09T05:50:33Z beach: Fare: It is not in SICL itself.  It is just during bootstrapping.
2015-06-09T05:50:50Z Fare: what about (1) using SBCL in a mode that has less aggressive optimizations
2015-06-09T05:50:58Z Fare: except in critical pieces of code
2015-06-09T05:51:23Z beach: Oh, I always do (SPEED 0) (SPACE 0)
2015-06-09T05:51:38Z beach: Fare: Again, it is not in the final SICL code.
2015-06-09T05:51:58Z Fare: (2) have a pass inline away most of your temporaries, and/or prevent any inlining and keeping each function body small
2015-06-09T05:52:11Z beach: Because if the way I do the bootstrapping by compiling Common Lisp code to HIR and then HIR to (very stupid) Common Lisp, I think it is the resulting host code that is big.
2015-06-09T05:52:33Z Zhivago: How long is a long time in this context?
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2015-06-09T05:52:56Z Fare: what about interpreting the HIR during bootstrap instead of compiling to stupid CL?
2015-06-09T05:53:09Z beach: Not *that* long.  Including pass 2 takes around 15 minutes.
2015-06-09T05:53:23Z Zhivago: Then I suggest not caring, or getting a bigger machine.
2015-06-09T05:53:24Z beach: Fare: Yeah, that's a possibility.
2015-06-09T05:53:33Z beach: Zhivago: I fully agree.
2015-06-09T05:54:12Z beach: On my desktop machine, things work sufficiently well that I don't have to care.
2015-06-09T05:54:13Z White_Flame: is that on your laptop?  how fast on your desktop?
2015-06-09T05:54:21Z White_Flame: oknm :)
2015-06-09T05:54:25Z beach: No, that's on the desktop.
2015-06-09T05:54:36Z beach: On the laptop, I run out of memory.
2015-06-09T05:54:37Z Fare: nity nite
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2015-06-09T05:54:46Z White_Flame: ah
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2015-06-09T06:22:45Z otsotsots: good morning lisp! (using common lisp, and being a semi-noob) I try to parse a timestring which can look both like "4-6-2015 20:25" AND "15-11-2014 12:23". I am using the local-time lib from quicklisp, but any other solution is fine. How do I go about? Just using subseq to picking out the correct parts seems bug-prone given the changing size of the string.... suggestions?
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2015-06-09T06:26:20Z akkad: split on -?
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2015-06-09T06:28:15Z pillton: A state machine.
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2015-06-09T06:29:10Z otsotsots: akkad: split date-parts and feed them to local-time separately? sounds so easy im slightly embaressed. will try it that way. brb.
2015-06-09T06:29:14Z beach: otsotsots: That, or you can use POSITION to find the separators.
2015-06-09T06:30:17Z otsotsots: beach: yes that sounds like a twist on the same solution. TY you both, ill see what ill get to work.
2015-06-09T06:30:45Z H4ns: otsotsots: i'd use a regular expression, seems straightforward
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2015-06-09T06:34:49Z otsotsots: The curse of lisp in a nutshell: paralysis of choice! :)
2015-06-09T06:35:22Z H4ns: otsotsots: a more capable date parsing library is just missing, i'd say.
2015-06-09T06:35:24Z otsotsots: (obviously it is not a curse, but it is a hurdle for people like me to get past before we get our own "style" of solving problems)
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2015-06-09T06:39:29Z otsotsots: and in all fairness there are plenty of option for local-time. im just yet unsure whether it is the package or I am the limiting factor. ill be back.
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2015-06-09T07:12:38Z standoo: hello
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2015-06-09T07:16:27Z beach: Hello standoo.
2015-06-09T07:16:30Z standoo: anyone here use sbcl threads?
2015-06-09T07:16:35Z standoo: beach: are you a bot?
2015-06-09T07:17:23Z beach: standoo: I am not a bot.  I prefer the term "electronically composed". :)
2015-06-09T07:17:29Z beach: standoo: No, I am a person.
2015-06-09T07:17:40Z standoo: beach: prove it
2015-06-09T07:17:53Z Zhivago: He might be a cabbage, in disguise.
2015-06-09T07:17:53Z standoo: beach: while i wait for my sbcl to compile
2015-06-09T07:17:56Z beach: I don't care whether you believe it or not, so no.
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2015-06-09T07:18:06Z standoo: beach: just kd :)
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2015-06-09T07:18:32Z beach: standoo: You might want to use Bordeaux threads to avoid depending on the implementation.
2015-06-09T07:19:03Z standoo: beach: bordeaux threads don't have the memory limit which i need
2015-06-09T07:19:09Z standoo: beach: unless i am wrong
2015-06-09T07:19:29Z beach: Possible.  I don't know.
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2015-06-09T07:24:09Z beach: Time to get to work.
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2015-06-09T07:24:48Z Pip: Zhivago, How is your AI project?
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2015-06-09T07:25:05Z standoo: Zhivago: an AI project?
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2015-06-09T07:27:27Z Zhivago: Pip: beach is doing quite well.
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2015-06-09T07:35:35Z pjb: minion: memo for  otsotsots: have a look at http://paste.lisp.org/+37BB
2015-06-09T07:35:35Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell otsotsots when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-06-09T07:35:52Z standoo: minion: help
2015-06-09T07:35:52Z minion: There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms".
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2015-06-09T07:38:13Z elderK: Hey guys.
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2015-06-09T07:38:33Z elderK: I was wondering what the best way to programmatically generate a value for a class slot if and only if that slot wasn't passed in.
2015-06-09T07:38:54Z elderK: I'd use the default-initargs and such but I need to pass parameters that ARE passed into the make-instance functio, to the function that'd generate the value for a slot.
2015-06-09T07:39:09Z elderK: Would adding a method to make-instance or initialize-instance be a bad step?
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2015-06-09T07:39:14Z pjb: elderK: (defclass c () ((slot :initform (error "Not generated!") :initarg :slot)))
2015-06-09T07:39:23Z H4ns: no, that'd be quite proper
2015-06-09T07:39:36Z pjb: it would be quite useless.
2015-06-09T07:39:45Z elderK: pjb: How does that help? It's valid for there to be no value given explicitly when calling make-instance.
2015-06-09T07:39:51Z H4ns: often, a constructor function is better than having class users directly invoke make-instance, though.
2015-06-09T07:39:57Z elderK: I agree.
2015-06-09T07:39:58Z pjb: H4ns: I publically memoed otsotsots so that YOU have a look at it too.
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2015-06-09T07:40:06Z elderK: But I want the behavior to occur for subclasses, too.
2015-06-09T07:40:20Z pjb: (declass d (c) ()) (make-instance 'd)
2015-06-09T07:40:23Z H4ns: well, then make-instance is your friend
2015-06-09T07:40:32Z pjb: still entirely useless.
2015-06-09T07:40:50Z pjb: You would never define a method on make-instance.
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2015-06-09T07:41:13Z elderK: So what would you do?
2015-06-09T07:41:44Z elderK: I don't want each subclass to have to recode the stuff to generate the value. And I don't particularly want the stuff that does it, to be visible outside of the package.
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2015-06-09T07:42:04Z H4ns: from what you wrote, i'd implement a make-instance method on the base class
2015-06-09T07:42:33Z elderK: That's what I thought'd be a good idea, too. But I'm curious as to why pjb dislikes that solution.
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2015-06-09T07:42:51Z elderK: I mean, generating the value can fail - I don't want an instance to be allocated if the value failed to generate.
2015-06-09T07:43:22Z pjb: elderK: I shown you what you should do: use  :initform !
2015-06-09T07:43:46Z H4ns: tough luck - there is no generic method that you could specialize that gets called before the instance is allocated.
2015-06-09T07:44:05Z elderK: pjb: I need to pass parameters into the function that generates the value for the slot.
2015-06-09T07:44:14Z H4ns: which is a good reason to separate instance initialization and resource allocation
2015-06-09T07:44:20Z pjb: :initform (your-function 'your-parameter)
2015-06-09T07:44:31Z elderK: THe parameters are other slot values, pjb.
2015-06-09T07:44:32Z H4ns: and i recognize that this often leads to incoherent api's and half-usable objects :(
2015-06-09T07:44:49Z pjb: elderK: then indeed you will need a method on initialize-instance.
2015-06-09T07:45:03Z pjb: You can use &key (slot nil slotp) and (if slotp …)
2015-06-09T07:45:23Z elderK: But there's no way to stop the allocation of an instance if generating the value fails?
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2015-06-09T07:45:36Z H4ns: what do you mean by "stop the allocation"?
2015-06-09T07:45:39Z elderK: Well.
2015-06-09T07:45:44Z H4ns: the instance is first allocated, then initialized.
2015-06-09T07:45:53Z elderK: Aaaah. Yes, precisely.
2015-06-09T07:46:18Z elderK: I forgot that :)
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2015-06-09T07:46:45Z H4ns: but if you signal an error during initialization, the instance will almost never be seen by anything and be garbage collected soon
2015-06-09T07:46:59Z elderK: Sweet :)
2015-06-09T07:47:24Z H4ns: if you make sure that no resources are attached to the instance during initialization, you'll not have to worry about "stopping the allocation".
2015-06-09T07:47:42Z Zhivago: You could perhaps use a :before method to abort before allocation?
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2015-06-09T07:48:05Z elderK: Wouldn't you have to place a method in allocate-instance for that, Zhivago?
2015-06-09T07:48:12Z elderK: or on make-instance itself?
2015-06-09T07:48:14Z H4ns: Zhivago: :before on what?
2015-06-09T07:49:30Z Zhivago: On the make-instance.
2015-06-09T07:49:44Z Zhivago: Then you could inspect the arguments and die in advance, if that was important to you.
2015-06-09T07:49:53Z H4ns: ah, right.
2015-06-09T07:50:06Z elderK: Zhivago: Is there anything wrong with that approach?
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2015-06-09T07:50:19Z elderK: I'm still curious as to why pjb was against having a method on make-instance?
2015-06-09T07:50:47Z Zhivago: Well, there are things like change-instance, etc.
2015-06-09T07:50:58Z elderK: Sorry to pester - and ask questions that are probably really obvious - but I'm new to CL. And I'm really trying to start using it for "Real" stuff :)
2015-06-09T07:51:05Z Zhivago: So perhaps it would work for the initial build, but not for later rejiggering.
2015-06-09T07:51:27Z pjb: elderK: already you would need not one method but two: (make-instance 'a) (make-instance (find-class 'a))
2015-06-09T07:51:39Z elderK: Why?
2015-06-09T07:51:48Z pjb: Because those two forms are equivalent.
2015-06-09T07:52:02Z elderK: Yes but wouldn't the first be implemented in terms of the second?
2015-06-09T07:52:28Z elderK: make-instance ((class standard-class))   and make-instance ((class symbol))
2015-06-09T07:52:29Z elderK: ?
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2015-06-09T07:54:17Z pjb: elderK: Yes.
2015-06-09T07:54:28Z pjb: So you would have to define it on (find-class 'a)
2015-06-09T07:54:45Z elderK: Yup.
2015-06-09T07:54:49Z pjb: It's the second in terms of the first.
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2015-06-09T07:55:50Z elderK: Zhivago: So, out of curiosity, change-class would be called if I reloaded a system say?
2015-06-09T07:55:56Z elderK: After adding a slot to the class in question?
2015-06-09T07:56:55Z Zhivago: If you re-ran the defclass, I believe so.
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2015-06-09T07:57:23Z elderK: I'll read up on that now.
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2015-06-09T07:57:26Z elderK: Thanks for your help guys.
2015-06-09T07:58:11Z pjb: elderK: no change-class is used to change the class of an instance.  Redefining the class is done by internal functions IIRC.
2015-06-09T07:59:10Z pjb: (defclass a () ()) (defclass b () ()) (class-name (class-of (change-class (make-instance 'b) 'a))) --> a
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2015-06-09T08:00:41Z elderK: Ah yes, thanks pjb.
2015-06-09T08:00:50Z elderK: I'm reading CLtL2 now about class redefinition.
2015-06-09T08:01:00Z pjb: clhs defclass
2015-06-09T08:01:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcla.htm
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2015-06-09T08:01:51Z elderK: Man, reading the specs and CLtL2, sometimes I feel like they thought of everything :)
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2015-06-09T08:04:48Z elderK: update-instance-for-redefined-class :)
2015-06-09T08:05:17Z loz1: morning friends
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2015-06-09T08:05:58Z loz1: my defsystem fails with invalid keyword :homepage
2015-06-09T08:06:12Z loz1: did anybody experience that?
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2015-06-09T08:07:52Z elderK: Nope.
2015-06-09T08:08:04Z elderK: But I think I'm misunderstanding the purpose of defsystem-depends-on.
2015-06-09T08:08:08Z pjb: I never used :homepage.
2015-06-09T08:08:23Z elderK: I was hoping to use that to pull in cffi-grovel instead of having an eval-when ... asdf:operate... block at the start of the file...
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2015-06-09T08:09:07Z elderK: Also! What's the convention regarding :documentation that spans multiple lines?
2015-06-09T08:09:27Z elderK: Is there a nice way to line it all up? Or do you just continue at the start of the next line?
2015-06-09T08:09:29Z H4ns: you mean "what is _a_ convention", i can offer a few
2015-06-09T08:09:39Z elderK: :D Okay H4ns! Hit me with them :)
2015-06-09T08:10:12Z H4ns: i meant to say that there are multiple conventions.  if in doubt, go with what emacs does by default or follow the google cl style guide
2015-06-09T08:10:13Z pjb: Perhaps it's :system-homepage ?
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2015-06-09T08:12:03Z pjb: elderK: there's an emacs convention to write a one-line summary on the first line, and a more extended documentation on the following lines.  Personnally, I just assume the first line is alligned with the following.  Sometimes, I start with a newline, so the question doesn't occur.
2015-06-09T08:12:27Z loz1: does asdf come with particular lisp implementation?
2015-06-09T08:12:33Z elderK: pjb: The opening " is on the next line? Or the content?
2015-06-09T08:12:43Z elderK: loz1: asdf comes with most implementations, afaik.
2015-06-09T08:12:51Z elderK: SBCL comes with ASDF3.something now.
2015-06-09T08:13:03Z elderK: You can get the latest ASDF online, too.
2015-06-09T08:13:08Z elderK: And use that if you need more recent features?
2015-06-09T08:13:35Z pjb: elderK: of course, if you start your docstring with a newline, you can put " on the same line as :documentation.  Otherwise it might be good to put it on the following line.
2015-06-09T08:13:36Z elderK: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Upgrading-ASDF.html#Upgrading-ASDF
2015-06-09T08:13:54Z elderK: pjb: I was meaning what do you do, preference. :)
2015-06-09T08:13:56Z pjb: elderK: really you have 800 MEGA BYTE of lisp sources to scan in ~/quicklisp to learn about usage!
2015-06-09T08:14:35Z elderK nods
2015-06-09T08:14:42Z elderK: ALso: GOOGLE has a freaking CL Convention?
2015-06-09T08:14:48Z elderK: I didn't expect that.
2015-06-09T08:14:52Z loz1: oh, i just forgot to add new sbcl to PATH
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2015-06-09T08:14:55Z pjb: I do that, :documentation " newline  or :documentation " short first line newline   or :documentation newline " long first line.
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2015-06-09T08:24:34Z Zhivago: elderK: Well, they did buy ITA ...
2015-06-09T08:26:48Z elderK: :)
2015-06-09T08:27:02Z elderK: Is there any point to using require/provide over asdf calls?
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2015-06-09T08:27:05Z elderK: like asdf/operate:load-system ?
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2015-06-09T08:35:07Z elderK: How do most of you guys define packages? Do you use defpackage or OIOPs define-package? :)
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2015-06-09T08:43:33Z splittist: elderK: how can 'most of' us answer? A quick grep through your quicklisp directory would tell you what library authors do.
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2015-06-09T08:44:48Z elderK: I don't have Quicklisp?
2015-06-09T08:45:03Z loz1: why?
2015-06-09T08:45:15Z elderK: I don't have a need for it just yet?
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2015-06-09T08:48:56Z splittist: elderK: but you are asking questions that could be answered by using quicklisp. It is pretty great.
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2015-06-09T08:59:55Z elderK: How are documentation strings merged for slots that're inherited?
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2015-06-09T09:00:09Z H4ns: elderK: they are not
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2015-06-09T09:34:13Z Baggers: Heya folks, I'm gonna be over in palo alto for a few weeks around july. Are there any good lisp meetups in that/san fran area?
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2015-06-09T09:43:57Z splittist: Baggers: it may be the wrong time of day to be asking (:
2015-06-09T09:44:42Z standoo: hello
2015-06-09T09:44:54Z standoo: looking for web frameworks anyone have something to recommend?
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2015-06-09T10:03:23Z jackdaniel: standoo: weblocks is really good, but it needs a bit of love wrt documentation
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2015-06-09T10:21:17Z Baggers: splittist: haha good point!
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2015-06-09T10:48:16Z asvil: Hi all.
2015-06-09T10:48:41Z asvil: Environment: CentOS release 6.5, sbcl 1.1.16, quicklisp, nginx, Hunchentoot, restas,   30 requests per minute, every request backend sends "http get to another server" using drakma.
2015-06-09T10:48:41Z asvil: After a week uptime usockets starts to throw timeout-error, but wget (curl) works fine. Are there something like usocket limits?
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2015-06-09T11:30:23Z H4ns: asvil: try lsof on the process, are many sockets open?
2015-06-09T11:30:45Z H4ns: asvil: is it possible that the ip address of the peer changes?
2015-06-09T11:30:53Z fe[nl]ix: same problem that Shinmera reported
2015-06-09T11:31:05Z fe[nl]ix: something doesn't close socket descriptors
2015-06-09T11:31:12Z H4ns: asvil: if connections are kept open for a long time and keepalives are enabled, it is possible that you see timeouts
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2015-06-09T11:43:28Z asvil: H4ns: lsof output contains about 20 established tcp sockets (lisp -> postgres)
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2015-06-09T11:44:47Z asvil: connection (with wich I have trouble) lives short time
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2015-06-09T11:46:31Z asvil: H4ns: I use it like `(drakma:http-request "url")` without streams or even saving results
2015-06-09T11:49:14Z asvil: fe[nl]ix: yes, I think so, but I have no results when google about sbcl drakma usocket bugs
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2015-06-09T12:02:39Z Xach: hmm
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2015-06-09T12:24:49Z flip214: asvil1: look at netstat, perhaps the RST/FIN events get lost in some way, and the lisp part still believes they are open normally
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2015-06-09T12:45:20Z H4ns: asvil1: maybe try using tcpdump to log what happens on these connections
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2015-06-09T14:17:02Z Posterdati: hi
2015-06-09T14:18:37Z Posterdati: I've got a problem with clisp 2.49 and the latest quicklisp.lisp: it hangs during installation at Fetching #<URL "http://beta.quicklisp.org/asdf/2.26/asdf.lisp">
2015-06-09T14:18:44Z Posterdati: in mips
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2015-06-09T14:26:34Z asvil1: So, the problem is in `(sb-bsd-sockets:get-host-by-name "google.com")`,  after a week uptime this form stops working
2015-06-09T14:26:53Z H4ns: what does "stops working" mean?
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2015-06-09T14:28:04Z asvil1: H4ns, it does not return
2015-06-09T14:28:51Z H4ns: sounds awful :(
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2015-06-09T14:32:16Z Xach: heh. for wigflip, i wrote my own resolver from scratch. i wonder if i would have hit this issue otherwise.
2015-06-09T14:32:29Z Xach: (i wanted strong control over the time spent resolving things)
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2015-06-09T14:42:40Z asvil1: strace on process shows that there is  something network job when I get-host-by-name, probably bug in sbcl internals
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2015-06-09T14:42:56Z H4ns: "something network job" ?
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2015-06-09T14:43:07Z hajovonta: hello
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2015-06-09T14:45:10Z asvil1: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149454
2015-06-09T14:45:17Z asvil1: H4ns: ^
2015-06-09T14:47:42Z failproofshark: hello
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2015-06-09T14:58:10Z splittist: why wouldn't you expect a "network job" when calling gethostbyname(3)? (genuinely curious)
2015-06-09T14:58:21Z splittist: asvil1: ^
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2015-06-09T15:06:20Z asvil1: splittist: because of dns
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2015-06-09T15:40:33Z hajovonta: re
2015-06-09T15:40:51Z oleo: sup
2015-06-09T15:41:53Z hajovonta: is it allowed to idle in this channel?
2015-06-09T15:42:04Z oleo: heh
2015-06-09T15:42:19Z oleo: sure
2015-06-09T15:43:07Z Xach: hajovonta: yes. most here are long-term idlers.
2015-06-09T15:43:34Z hajovonta: :)
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2015-06-09T16:15:21Z Oddity: What kind of IRC channel forbids idling?
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2015-06-09T16:20:42Z z0d: all?
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2015-06-09T16:24:58Z smokeink: (sb-ext:run-program "/usr/bin/proxychains" `("wget" ,url "-O" ,fname "--header=\"Accept: text/html\"" "--user-agent=\"Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:21.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/21.0\"")) <- is this the right way to pass --header and --user-agent to wget ?
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2015-06-09T16:27:56Z angus: smokeink: you shouldn't need the quotation marks
2015-06-09T16:29:11Z smokeink: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/14443748/run-program-to-launch-alsaplayer-in-sbcl it wants a list for the params
2015-06-09T16:30:26Z angus: "--header=Accept: text/html" instead of "--header=\"Accept: text/html\""
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2015-06-09T16:31:57Z smokeink: thanks angus
2015-06-09T16:32:20Z angus: np
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2015-06-09T17:14:12Z malice: Hello, I want to write macro that will write out slots of integer type
2015-06-09T17:14:17Z malice: Here's code: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149455
2015-06-09T17:14:34Z malice: If I write (integer-slot name1 name2) it returns list of these slots
2015-06-09T17:14:49Z malice: and I would like it to return just slots, without the list. How can I achieve that?
2015-06-09T17:16:25Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: hi
2015-06-09T17:16:45Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: finally I'm compiling ecl on mips! CI20 is a very fast board
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2015-06-09T17:17:35Z angus: malice: you can't
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2015-06-09T17:20:36Z Bike: what does "slots without the list" mean?
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2015-06-09T17:24:37Z angus: splice the list returned by the macro in the slots list
2015-06-09T17:24:42Z angus: as if using ,@
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2015-06-09T17:26:13Z jasom: malice: you'll have to return a list and splice it yourself.
2015-06-09T17:28:26Z jasom: malice: the good news is that if you're splicing it yourself, integer-slot can be a function rather than a macro
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2015-06-09T17:53:18Z kami: Good evening.
2015-06-09T17:54:44Z emaczen: I implemented a tiny object system whose current syntax for method calls looks like: (funcall object :method-name rest-args)
2015-06-09T17:55:03Z emaczen: How can I get rid of the "funcall"
2015-06-09T17:56:54Z Bike: you could use the mop and make objects funcallable-instances.
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2015-06-09T17:58:39Z digiorgi: Bike: How you make an object funcallable?
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2015-06-09T18:04:16Z emaczen: Bike: Is there a non-mop solution?
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2015-06-09T18:06:28Z oGMo: short answer: no .. you could do some terrible things though
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2015-06-09T18:07:06Z Bike: i think i was mistaken about the problem anyway.
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2015-06-09T18:12:51Z jasom: early object systems for lisp looked like (send object method-name args)
2015-06-09T18:13:14Z jasom: based off of smalltalk message-passing style OO
2015-06-09T18:13:27Z emaczen: jasom: That's essentially what I have
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2015-06-09T18:15:22Z oGMo: emaczen: you can always write a macro block that expands to a MACROLET which in turn expands to (funcall NAME ...)
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2015-06-09T18:16:19Z oGMo: or use readtables and do something objc-like .. [ob ...]
2015-06-09T18:17:11Z digiorgi: u can create a macro like WITH-OBJECT that (WITH-OBJECT (obj) (obj :method))=> (funcall object :method)
2015-06-09T18:17:45Z oGMo: but, CLOS can pretty much do everything you want and is probably faster than what you'll write, and is more idiomatic, so
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2015-06-09T18:20:37Z digiorgi: And in some implementations CLOS is coded in native code (:
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2015-06-09T18:23:59Z oGMo: digiorgi: well in many implementations CL compiles to native code, so by proxy :P
2015-06-09T18:24:38Z oGMo: that doesn't ensure it's fast though
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2015-06-09T18:25:10Z digiorgi: oGMo: true
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2015-06-09T18:29:07Z emaczen: oGMo: Yeah, it is a good experiment, and its utility is for parenscript
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2015-06-09T18:29:48Z emaczen: oGMo: What is a macro block?
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2015-06-09T18:57:29Z p_l: technically CLOS still is "message passing" of you make GFs to be messages
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2015-06-09T19:06:08Z akkad: is a fasl like an elc? where if you say (load "foo.lisp") it will load foo.fasl if it exists?
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2015-06-09T19:06:50Z oGMo: yes
2015-06-09T19:07:09Z oGMo: emaczen: a macro with a &body?
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2015-06-09T19:09:29Z oGMo: akkad: except, you shouldn't use LOAD, of course
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2015-06-09T19:11:53Z akkad: what do you recommend instead of load?
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2015-06-09T19:15:12Z oGMo: use asdf to specify your dependencies, etc
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2015-06-09T19:21:30Z digiorgi: someone used ABCL for making a applet?
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2015-06-09T20:09:15Z jasom: p_l: multiple dispatch is inherently different from message passing
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2015-06-09T20:09:22Z jasom: p_l: I would say it's a superset
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2015-06-09T20:11:17Z aerique_: XachX: didn't you have some kind of CL documentation site?
2015-06-09T20:12:13Z jasom: aerique_: I think you're thinkinf of quickdocs which isn't run by xach IIRC
2015-06-09T20:12:32Z XachX: aerique_: no
2015-06-09T20:12:52Z aerique_: jasom: that must have been it, thanks
2015-06-09T20:13:29Z schjetne: aerique_: perhaps l1sp.org?
2015-06-09T20:14:21Z aerique_: schjetne: ah that, was actually it!  thanks all, quickdocs looks nice as well
2015-06-09T20:15:19Z aerique_: I could not find them on Cliki, but perhaps I didn't look good enough
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2015-06-09T20:35:20Z p_l: jasom: well, if you agree that messages can be sent to "combined objects", and that your main implementation of that is through some handler external to object...
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2015-06-09T21:38:37Z fourier: If I use one-file-per-packages strategy, is where a way to automatically update dependencies in .asd file when I add something to the :use option of the package?
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2015-06-09T21:41:08Z PuercoPop: fourier: yes, using package-inferred-systems, sec
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2015-06-09T21:41:55Z PuercoPop: http://davazp.net/2014/11/26/modern-library-with-asdf-and-package-inferred-system.html
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2015-06-09T21:42:51Z fourier: wow great! thanks!
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2015-06-09T22:34:07Z Bike: anyone happen to know where i could find someone (i think naggum did at least once) talking about replacing tagged pointers with partioning memory by type?
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2015-06-09T22:41:03Z jasom: Bike: high-bit tagging or BIBOP
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2015-06-09T22:42:32Z Bike: cute
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2015-06-09T22:42:58Z jasom: Bike: they both partition memory by type, but are distinct strategies
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2015-06-09T22:47:15Z jasom: Note that high-bit tagging will be limited on some x86-64 bit systems, since they don't have true 64-bit addresses you only get 1 high bit for tagging purposes
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2015-06-09T22:48:13Z spyrosoft: How do you delist a list? If a function expects &rest, how do you supply it with the contents of a list?
2015-06-09T22:48:29Z jasom: clhs apply
2015-06-09T22:48:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm
2015-06-09T22:48:33Z jasom: specbot: see that link
2015-06-09T22:48:39Z jasom: spyrosoft: see that link
2015-06-09T22:48:52Z p_l: jasom: also, there's absolutely no guarantee at all about how many bits you can steal
2015-06-09T22:49:13Z p_l: some intel cpus will only look at 40 bits, some at 48
2015-06-09T22:49:36Z jasom: I think all AMD is 48, but I might be misremembering
2015-06-09T22:49:57Z p_l: and while highest bit is traditionally used to differentiate between supervisor and userland, it's not actually specified to be such
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2015-06-09T22:50:06Z p_l: jasom: yes, all AMD cpus do >=48bit
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2015-06-09T22:50:38Z jasom: p_l: the highest bit is allowed to be used; I always assumed that was for systems that put stack at the top of the address space and grows down
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2015-06-09T22:51:38Z p_l: jasom: the highest bit is *already* used - by kernel
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2015-06-09T22:52:14Z jasom: p_l: I didn't know that; what does the kernel need with virtual addresses?
2015-06-09T22:52:14Z p_l: (which works with the "ignore upper bits" by virtue of 2's complement)
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2015-06-09T22:52:50Z p_l: jasom: when you enter kernel mode (by syscall) you do NOT switch virtual memory mapping
2015-06-09T22:53:04Z Bike: thanks
2015-06-09T22:53:11Z p_l: and I believe sometimes you might even get memory mapped from there to userland
2015-06-09T22:53:13Z jasom: ah, so they use it kind of like the old ARM FCSE
2015-06-09T22:53:43Z p_l: jasom: making OS use upper half is old tendency (high-moby low-moby?)
2015-06-09T22:53:48Z jasom: so if I try to mmap something to the top-half of my address space, it will likely fail?
2015-06-09T22:54:15Z p_l: jasom: if you try to actually specify upper-half of address space? yes
2015-06-09T22:54:35Z jasom: good to know; so really I only have 39 bits to work with guaranteed
2015-06-09T22:54:36Z p_l: jasom: it's why on 32bit kernels you can't allocate >2G of memory tops
2015-06-09T22:54:58Z spyrosoft: Like a charm! Thanks.
2015-06-09T22:55:22Z jasom: 512GB should be enough for anybody!
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2015-06-09T22:56:19Z jasom just noticed that RAM sizes have stagnated a bit recently.  I had a laptop with 4GB of RAM almost a decade ago, and yet my workstation only has 16GB of RAM
2015-06-09T22:57:22Z jasom needs a new motherboard; the current one only supports 4x4 if I want ECC
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2015-06-09T23:03:41Z Shinmera: Does perchance anyone know how to circumvent the following CL+SSL error? "error:14077438:SSL routines:SSL23_GET_SERVER_HELLO:tlsv1 alert internal error"
2015-06-09T23:04:10Z Shinmera: What I can find per google indicates an OpenSSL bug, but I can't tell how to get a workaround.
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2015-06-09T23:07:14Z pjb: Update OpenSSL library?
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2015-06-09T23:08:31Z Shinmera: I'll try that, I suppose.
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2015-06-09T23:13:07Z nf7: I've read that Lisp is apparently particular good at AI type stuff. Why is that?
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2015-06-09T23:14:58Z pjb: nf7: because it's a symbolic programming language, therefore you can easily write symbolic AI programs.  It was designed for that by John McCarthy at the AILabs.
2015-06-09T23:15:11Z dkcl: nf7: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/130475/why-is-lisp-used-for-ai
2015-06-09T23:15:53Z pjb: cf. books "Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp" and "Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach"  http://aima.cs.berkeley.edu
2015-06-09T23:16:07Z nf7: thanks!
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2015-06-09T23:17:50Z H4ns: why don't you ask that question where you've seen the claim?
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2015-06-09T23:18:27Z H4ns: i mean, every friggin day people come here and ask this question, but never ever will you see someone here claim that lisp is particularly great for ai
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2015-06-09T23:19:25Z H4ns: this channel, as you may or may have noted, is about common lisp.  we discuss a specific lisp dialect here, discussions about general claims about lisp in general are not welcome.  try #lispcafe
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2015-06-09T23:19:38Z H4ns: thank you.
2015-06-09T23:19:40Z nf7: I read it on the Wikipedia article for Lisp: "[Lisp] quickly became the favored programming language for artificial intelligence research".
2015-06-09T23:19:56Z H4ns: nf7: #lispcafe
2015-06-09T23:20:17Z H4ns: this channel is not the "we explain the wikipedia article on lisp"-channel
2015-06-09T23:20:26Z jaykru: h4ns what is your problem?
2015-06-09T23:20:28Z nf7: What is your problem?
2015-06-09T23:20:29Z nf7: lol
2015-06-09T23:20:31Z jaykru: he's asking a simple question
2015-06-09T23:20:35Z H4ns: i don't have a problem.
2015-06-09T23:20:37Z nf7: Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed today.
2015-06-09T23:20:45Z jaykru: Clearly you do if you're being this particular about a small question
2015-06-09T23:20:56Z nf7: pjb: Thanks for the information.
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2015-06-09T23:21:01Z jaykru: that would no doubt spurn discussion about Common Lisp
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2015-06-09T23:21:15Z H4ns: no doubt
2015-06-09T23:21:24Z jaykru: jesus christ
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2015-06-09T23:22:11Z H4ns: hah!  it is always the idlers and sleepers who speak up when someone complains about off-topic discussions :D
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2015-06-09T23:24:26Z jaykru: Your definition of on-topic is so incredibly slim that I felt the need to chime in
2015-06-09T23:24:49Z jaykru: I don't normally speak up because I have a limited expertise in Common Lisp, usually I don't know enough about the topic at hand to speak with any degree of authority
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2015-06-09T23:25:01Z pjb: H4ns: We can assume that "AI" is positive and "lisp good for AI" can motivate people to learn lisp.  It was the case for me, for example.  If once they become lispers they don't write AI programs, it doesn't matter.
2015-06-09T23:25:42Z pjb: H4ns: therefore it would be counter productive to contradict people asking/believing that lisp is good for AI.  Our job here is to just give them a reason to learn lisp!
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2015-06-09T23:26:27Z pjb: H4ns: on the other hand, you can provide a lot of books and papers about writing AI programs using lisp, starting with PAIP, but there are tens of other references.
2015-06-09T23:27:31Z `dwr: I think this reminds me of when stackoverflow questions get rated as having too vague or opinion-based of an answer
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2015-06-09T23:27:37Z `dwr: not that i really have an opinion here ;p
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2015-06-09T23:29:16Z pjb: Well, we cannot go into the past, and change the brains of askers, so they ask "How do I write this AI program in Lisp?" instead of "[Why] Is Lisp good for AI programming?
2015-06-09T23:29:19Z pjb: "
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2015-06-09T23:45:00Z drmeister: Hey folks.  A couple of months ago someone posted a link for a project where someone else had written Scheme code to parse DWARF debugging information.
2015-06-09T23:45:20Z drmeister: This is basically a cry into the wilderness - does the above trigger anyones memory?
2015-06-09T23:47:27Z p_l: drmeister: https://wingolog.org/archives/2012/06/19/dltool-mines-dwarf ?
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2015-06-09T23:49:28Z drmeister: That looks like it. Thank you
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2015-06-09T23:49:36Z p_l: np
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2015-06-09T23:52:26Z spyrosoft: This is fun: https://notabug.org/koz.ross/awesome-cl
2015-06-09T23:52:53Z pjb: nf7: more references at http://cliki.net/AI
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2015-06-09T23:56:58Z spyrosoft: Since sort is destructive, why doesn't it just set the variable to the final result?
2015-06-09T23:57:19Z Shinmera: It's not a macro, so it cannot.
2015-06-09T23:57:39Z pjb: spyrosoft: just like qsort(3) cannot "just set the variable" in C.
2015-06-09T23:57:51Z pjb: spyrosoft: Lisp like C only has pass-by-value arguments.
2015-06-09T23:58:33Z spyrosoft: If that were true, the original variable would not be mutated, correct?
2015-06-09T23:58:41Z spyrosoft: It would pass a copy?
2015-06-09T23:58:50Z Shinmera: It passes a copy of the reference.
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2015-06-09T23:59:25Z pjb: In pass-by-value, the value of the argument is indeed copied to the parameter.
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2015-06-10T00:00:20Z pjb: (let ((a 42)) (f a))  The value of a is 42 is copied to the parameter of f.  f cannot modify a (therefore we can infer things without having to look at f, such as the value of a is 42 after the call to f, which is a good thing).
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2015-06-10T00:01:24Z pjb: (let ((a "hello") (f a)) The value of A is a reference to a string containing the caracters #\h #\e #\l #\l #\o, and this reference is copied to the parameter of f.  f cannot modify A, and should not modify the string, since it's a literal string that must be assumed non-mutable.
2015-06-10T00:02:14Z pillton: Any function F cannot modify the binding of A.
2015-06-10T00:02:17Z spyrosoft: So in the process of sorting, the head of the list referenced is lost?
2015-06-10T00:02:36Z pjb: (let ((a (copy-seq "hello"))) (f a)) The value of A is a reference to a string containing the caracters #\h #\e #\l #\l #\o, and this reference is copied to the parameter of f.  f cannot modify A, and MAY modify the string, since it's a mutable object.  After the call to f, A still refers to the same string, but now it may contain the caracters #\w #\o #\r #\l #\d instead.
2015-06-10T00:02:41Z pillton: Any function F can modify the object bound to A.
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2015-06-10T00:02:57Z pjb: if it's a mutable object.
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2015-06-10T00:03:35Z pillton: The function F wouldn't exist in that case.
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2015-06-10T00:05:19Z spyrosoft: Which makes it seem like it is possible to swap out the car and cons of the original reference, resulting in the sorted array.
2015-06-10T00:05:30Z spyrosoft: sorry
2015-06-10T00:05:32Z spyrosoft: car and cdr
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2015-06-10T00:06:19Z jasom: spyrosoft: it is possible, but that's not what the spec requires
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2015-06-10T00:06:40Z spyrosoft: Is this for speed reasons?
2015-06-10T00:07:06Z jasom: spyrosoft: in general you will write: (let ((foo (do-something bar))) ...) whether or not do-something is destructive on bar.
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2015-06-10T00:08:34Z jasom: spyrosoft: I don't know the reason behind it, but it's true of most of the standard library: you use the result of the function, rather than relying on the function to mutate its parameter.  For performance reasons, some functions may mutate their parameter in an unspecified way.
2015-06-10T00:08:58Z jasom: sort is one of the few (maybe the only?) that doesn't come in both a non-modifying and modifying version.
2015-06-10T00:09:11Z pillton: spyrosoft: I don't know if it is for performance reasons but there are historical reasons that also need to be considered.
2015-06-10T00:09:37Z `dwr`: when doing tree manipulations it's a lot faster if you are free to change cdrs in the original tree
2015-06-10T00:09:44Z jasom: spyrosoft: see e.g. NCONC and APPEND
2015-06-10T00:10:22Z spyrosoft: Yes! Historical reasons. I'm really curious what they are.
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2015-06-10T00:10:24Z jasom: the interface for both nconc and append is identical: you use the result of the function.  It's just that nconc may mutate its arguments
2015-06-10T00:11:13Z pjb: spyrosoft: clisp does that.  But it lets you write non-conforming code, so it's not so good.
2015-06-10T00:12:11Z spyrosoft: pjb: Oh, you mean it makes your code non-portable?
2015-06-10T00:12:40Z pjb: spyrosoft: notice that clisp tries to maintain the first and last cons cell, but it may reorder the cells in the middle, so you still have the problem if you keep references to the middle of the list.
2015-06-10T00:12:57Z pjb: spyrosoft: yes, it makes your code non portable.  non-conforming is the technical term.
2015-06-10T00:13:08Z spyrosoft: Ah, that makes sense. Thanks, pjb.
2015-06-10T00:13:13Z pjb: Just remember to write: (setf seq (sort seq order))
2015-06-10T00:13:41Z pjb: Of course, the setf is useless if you are returning the result of sort, which is often the case.
2015-06-10T00:14:03Z pjb: (defun f (seq) (post-process (sort (pre-process seq) order)))
2015-06-10T00:14:13Z spyrosoft: Wait, since sort is destructive, doesn't that mess with the inner cells?
2015-06-10T00:14:27Z pjb: Yes. In this case, it makes f destructive.
2015-06-10T00:14:40Z Quadrescence: But it's OK if PRE-PROCESS makes a copy!
2015-06-10T00:14:46Z pjb: or not, depending on pre-process actually, yes.
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2015-06-10T00:18:21Z pillton: spyrosoft: The "common" in common lisp is essentially a reminder that the common lisp standard was created due to a need to unify a number of different implementations of lisp.
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2015-06-10T00:44:11Z digiorgi: PuercoPop: is your site? Is cool i finally understood the asdf inferred system (:
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2015-06-10T00:45:21Z digiorgi: PuercoPop: if is your site you also have coleslaw to generate it with a pure common lisp static website generator.
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2015-06-10T01:06:05Z PuercoPop: digiorgi: no, it is the site of davazp, of JSCL fame.
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2015-06-10T01:24:27Z nyef: Why is it that shopping for stuff online is so hard at times? "I need a graphics card for an SGI fuel" -- easy. "I need a stereo USB headset with microphone" -- nobody's search engine actually does this.
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2015-06-10T01:25:22Z nyef: "I need a shirt, this neck size, this sleeve length, with a pocket." -- nobody's search selector covers pockets.
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2015-06-10T01:26:38Z pillton: We have already covered lisp and AI today.
2015-06-10T01:26:53Z digiorgi: nyef: for usb stereo look at kranken headsets
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2015-06-10T02:12:51Z nyef: I'm finally trying this ASDF package-inferred-system thing. I know that my existing code requires CLX, but doesn't include any dependency on :xlib in the package definitions. How should I go about making sure that CLX is loaded before any of my files are compiled or loaded?
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2015-06-10T02:30:38Z nyef: Okay, new question. How do I figure out which of my source files didn't get built?
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2015-06-10T02:33:41Z pjb: nyef: that's because most of data input into the internet is still input manually by humans.  Once you have data input by robots (google cars for street views, robots for shopping, etc), you will get "better" data, and possibly even personalized data.
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2015-06-10T02:37:08Z pjb: http://gnustep.org/
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2015-06-10T02:41:24Z nyef: Okay, definitely now need some way to tell ASDF to load :CLX before it loads my little toy.
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2015-06-10T03:11:09Z nyef: ... If I have two package-inferred-systems, and packages in system two refer to packages in system one, will ASDF load all of system one, or just the referenced packages?
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2015-06-10T03:55:01Z nyef: Okay, I can now fire up SBCL, issue (require :nq-clim), and I get an environment which will build and run my "sample" program.
2015-06-10T03:55:05Z nyef: Progress!
2015-06-10T03:55:12Z Quadrescence: nice
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2015-06-10T04:05:18Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-06-10T04:05:29Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2015-06-10T04:06:35Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-06-10T04:08:19Z nyef: beach: Progress on NQ-CLIM today. As of about fifteen minutes ago, I pushed an update to use ASDF for the build system.
2015-06-10T04:09:00Z aeth: what's nq-clim?
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2015-06-10T04:09:11Z aeth: I know the 'clim' part
2015-06-10T04:09:17Z nyef: aeth: "Not Quite CLIM".
2015-06-10T04:09:22Z aeth: ah
2015-06-10T04:09:42Z beach: nyef: That's great news.
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2015-06-10T04:12:43Z nyef: I still haven't done enough of the survey of current implementation vs. the spec to be able to do any real development, but getting the build system somewhat more sorted is a good step.
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2015-06-10T04:13:28Z beach: Yes, and it is exciting that you started working on it again.
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2015-06-10T04:14:36Z nyef: Well, it's about time it got some attention. But so many other things basically ate my brain for the past several months.
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2015-06-10T04:15:32Z beach: It happens.
2015-06-10T04:17:16Z beach: nyef: So you went to the talk by drmeister?
2015-06-10T04:17:36Z nyef: Yes. Very interesting.
2015-06-10T04:17:43Z beach: Good!
2015-06-10T04:18:08Z nyef: The lisp bits, too. (-:
2015-06-10T04:18:15Z beach: Heh!
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2015-06-10T04:22:02Z drmeister: Hello
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2015-06-10T04:22:18Z beach: Hello drmeister
2015-06-10T04:22:27Z beach: So, are you happy with the talk?
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2015-06-10T04:31:11Z kami: Good morning.
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2015-06-10T04:34:46Z beach: Hello kami.
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2015-06-10T04:42:54Z drmeister: beach: Yes, I think it went well, but I haven't seen it yet.
2015-06-10T04:43:35Z theos: link?
2015-06-10T04:43:47Z drmeister: No link yet.
2015-06-10T04:44:05Z theos: :/
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2015-06-10T04:44:41Z beach: drmeister: Did you have the opportunity to discuss with some people?
2015-06-10T04:45:04Z drmeister: Yes, I spent about 6 hours there.  I'm going back for lunch tomorrow.
2015-06-10T04:45:26Z beach: Oh, OK.  So I should put up the Cleavir documentation then?
2015-06-10T04:45:37Z beach: Hold on...
2015-06-10T04:45:50Z drmeister: That would be great. I might get an opportunity to show them again tomorrow.
2015-06-10T04:46:01Z drmeister: To outline what needs to be done next.
2015-06-10T04:47:24Z drmeister: When I try to run "make" in the Cleavir/Documentation directory it just hangs.  Even "make -n" doesn't print anything.  I haven't seen make do that before.  Any ideas?
2015-06-10T04:47:57Z beach: Not really no.  Works fine here.
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2015-06-10T04:48:20Z drmeister: Are you on linux?
2015-06-10T04:48:22Z beach: I can't put it up right now.  I'll do it somewhat later.  It should be at metamodular.com/cleavir.pdf.
2015-06-10T04:48:33Z beach: Yes, Ubuntu.
2015-06-10T04:48:43Z drmeister: Ok.
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2015-06-10T04:52:09Z drmeister: I'm working on getting cclasp running fully, now that I've got  to that point.  It appears that Cleavir lexical environments are showing up as arguments to cleavir-environment:eval
2015-06-10T04:52:19Z drmeister: Should that be able to happen?
2015-06-10T04:52:28Z drmeister: If so, what do I do with them?
2015-06-10T04:53:05Z drmeister: I'm just replicating it now
2015-06-10T04:53:41Z beach: I don't remember.  Let me have a look.
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2015-06-10T04:58:44Z beach: drmeister: The second argument should not be a local environment, but the first one certainly can be.
2015-06-10T04:59:21Z beach: Sorry, the second environment argument should not be a local environment, but the first one can be.
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2015-06-10T04:59:39Z beach: The thing to do then is indicated in the comment in eval.lisp.
2015-06-10T04:59:57Z drmeister: (defmethod cleavir-environment:eval (form env (dispatch-env clasp-global-environment))
2015-06-10T05:00:16Z drmeister: The first argument is a form.
2015-06-10T05:00:28Z beach: Sorry, the second environment argument should not be a local environment, but the first one can be.
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2015-06-10T05:00:41Z beach: The second environment argument is the third argument.
2015-06-10T05:00:42Z drmeister: I'll check eval.lisp
2015-06-10T05:00:50Z beach: The first environment argument is the second argument.
2015-06-10T05:00:55Z drmeister: Got it.
2015-06-10T05:01:13Z beach: You call your normal compiler on the form and the environment and execute the result.
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2015-06-10T05:01:53Z beach: If you don't do that, this would explain your problem with MACROLET.
2015-06-10T05:02:13Z beach: Like, if ignore the first environment argument (the second argument).
2015-06-10T05:03:12Z drmeister: Found it, reading...
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2015-06-10T05:03:44Z drmeister: "You call your normal compiler on the form and the environment and execute the result"?
2015-06-10T05:03:59Z drmeister: I'm puzzled by that:  My normal compiler can't handle the Cleavir environment.
2015-06-10T05:04:14Z beach: Yes, you convert the form to an AST in the environment given by the first environment argument (the second argument).
2015-06-10T05:04:38Z beach: The normal compiler in this context obviously does not refer to the Cleavir compiler.
2015-06-10T05:04:45Z beach: Sorry
2015-06-10T05:04:54Z beach: The normal compiler in this context obviously does not refer to the Clasp compiler.
2015-06-10T05:05:07Z beach: Because Cleavir doesn't know anything about Clasp.
2015-06-10T05:05:47Z beach: The normal compiler is the one that converts the form to an AST in the first environment argument (the second argument).
2015-06-10T05:05:49Z drmeister: Trying to parse those last sentences.
2015-06-10T05:06:02Z spacebat`: I'm musing on a design issue, I have many different types of object to print, many that have no lisp-readable representation, so I use princ or the ~A format specifier, but I'd like different formats for different audiences, such as an admin on the repl vs a customer with a browser
2015-06-10T05:06:03Z drmeister: Ok.
2015-06-10T05:06:26Z beach: drmeister: If you ignore the first environment argument (the second argument) when you evaluate the form, this would explain why you have problems with MACROLET.
2015-06-10T05:07:25Z beach: drmeister: You need to convert the form to an AST in the environment given by the first environment argument (the second argument).
2015-06-10T05:07:42Z spacebat`: my first impulse is to use a special variable to switch the behaviour of print-object, but specials are part useful part trap, so I wonder if there's another pattern/library people use for this sort of thing (I've already considered contextL)
2015-06-10T05:08:10Z beach: drmeister: If you don't do that, then any macros introduced by MACROLET and SYMBOL-MACROLET will not be visible when the form is evaluated and you will have the problem that you showed the other day.
2015-06-10T05:08:33Z drmeister: Yes, I see that - it's the solution to the problem that is eluding me.  It sounds like I should convert the form to an AST with the environment using  generate an AST  using (cleavir-generate-ast:generate-ast form environment1 clasp-system)
2015-06-10T05:09:26Z drmeister: Is there more that I need to do to eval it?
2015-06-10T05:09:34Z beach: Yes, that's what the "normal compiler" does.
2015-06-10T05:10:00Z beach: Then you need to convert that AST to HIR and HIR to native code and execute the resulting code.
2015-06-10T05:10:15Z drmeister: Ah
2015-06-10T05:10:22Z beach: Like a normal EVAL using a normal compiler.
2015-06-10T05:11:57Z drmeister: This use of "normal" isn't communicating to me.  I thought my "normal" compiler was the one I've always been using up until now, the boostrapping one that can't handle Cleavir environments. I'll redefine "normal" to mean the Cleavir compiler.
2015-06-10T05:12:15Z beach: Cleavir doesn't refer to Clasp at all.
2015-06-10T05:12:16Z drmeister: I'm going back up and reading the last couple of minutes with that in mind.
2015-06-10T05:12:25Z drmeister: I understand.
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2015-06-10T05:14:22Z drmeister: Do I do something different (eg: compile/execute with the bootstrapping compiler if environment1 is the top-level environment or does cleavir-environment:eval always (1) generate AST (2) generate HIR (3) generate MIR (4) generate LLVM-IR (5) generate native code (6) evaluate native code).
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2015-06-10T05:16:11Z drmeister: I see now, you corrected yourself and said: "The normal compiler in this context obviously does not refer to the Clasp compiler."
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2015-06-10T05:17:08Z drmeister: Every time you said "normal" (meaning Cleavir) I thought Clasp.  That is what confused me.
2015-06-10T05:17:57Z drmeister: So  cleavir-environment:eval should (1) generate AST in environment1 (2) generate HIR (3) generate MIR (4) generate LLVM-IR (5) generate native code (6) evaluate native code)
2015-06-10T05:18:01Z beach: drmeister: Read the paragraph that starts "For the intrinsic case..."
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2015-06-10T05:19:19Z drmeister: What does intrinsic mean in this context?
2015-06-10T05:19:28Z beach: Native.
2015-06-10T05:19:34Z beach: Not cross.
2015-06-10T05:19:40Z drmeister: Got it.
2015-06-10T05:20:14Z beach: The right thing to do in every case is to convert the form to an AST using environment1.
2015-06-10T05:20:31Z drmeister: Got it, I see that now.
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2015-06-10T05:22:49Z drmeister: This paragraph in eval.lisp appears to be cut off at the end:
2015-06-10T05:22:59Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/hZeeta39/
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2015-06-10T05:23:15Z drmeister: "obtain a compiled"...
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2015-06-10T05:24:29Z beach: Right.
2015-06-10T05:24:43Z beach: I don't know how I meant the sentence to end.
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2015-06-10T05:24:55Z beach: But it is unimportant for this case.
2015-06-10T05:25:35Z drmeister: Also, I don't understand, if the "solution that always works would be to handle compile-time evaluation...". If the solution always works then how can there be the "inverse problem?"
2015-06-10T05:26:54Z beach: It works, but you will get interpreted functions in your global environment, so it might be slow.
2015-06-10T05:28:54Z drmeister: Phew, reading it again it is a little more clear to me. But without you telling me exactly what to do I think I would still not be able to come up with the right solution.
2015-06-10T05:29:08Z drmeister: I see what you are telling me now.  I'll implement what you say.
2015-06-10T05:29:55Z drmeister: There was something else you told me several weeks about that I should do to avoid recursive compilation.  Will that come up here?
2015-06-10T05:30:14Z drmeister: told me several weeks ago about...
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2015-06-10T05:31:28Z beach: I have no idea.
2015-06-10T05:31:40Z beach: Checking the logs might help.
2015-06-10T05:32:08Z drmeister: Yikes. I'll sleep on it and try to remember more details.
2015-06-10T05:32:22Z drmeister: Something about constants or literals.
2015-06-10T05:32:37Z beach: Right, ...
2015-06-10T05:32:43Z drmeister: To avoid an infinite loop of recursive compilation.
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2015-06-10T05:33:17Z beach: if you EVAL those by converting to an AST etc, then the same constant will show up again in the load-time-value, so you will call EVAL again.
2015-06-10T05:33:19Z drmeister: To test for them and just cl:eval them straight up?
2015-06-10T05:33:57Z beach: Unless CL:EVAL is the Cleavir EVAL in which case you will get an infinite compilation.
2015-06-10T05:34:45Z drmeister: No, I can use my bootstrapping compiler to eval those.  That's what I should do - correct?
2015-06-10T05:34:50Z beach: Constants don't need EVAL to be evaluated, so you don't need to call EVAL on them.
2015-06-10T05:35:05Z beach: The value of a constant is that constant.
2015-06-10T05:35:11Z drmeister: Right - ok.
2015-06-10T05:35:17Z beach: So calling EVAL would be the same as calling IDENTITY.
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2015-06-10T05:36:09Z drmeister: So I just return them?  And by them I mean anything that would become a load-time-value?
2015-06-10T05:36:44Z beach: You have two choices for the load-time-values that are used to produce your final function.
2015-06-10T05:37:08Z beach: Choice 1: Ignore what it is and call your bootstrapping compiler.  It will always do the right thing.
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2015-06-10T05:38:41Z beach: Choice 2: Analyze the form to be evaluated.  If it is something that would create an infinite compilation then handle it as a special case.  If not, it is safe to evaluate it using the "normal" method, i.e. convert to AST, to HIR, to native code, etc.  In that process, you might again be asked to supply load-time-values of course.
2015-06-10T05:39:03Z beach: This process will end when the load-time-values are so simple that they will be one of the special cases you handle.
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2015-06-10T05:40:25Z drmeister: Ok, I'll think on this and take a stab at implementing something tomorrow.
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2015-06-10T05:41:31Z drmeister: Thanks beach.
2015-06-10T05:41:39Z beach: Sure.
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2015-06-10T05:56:06Z Xof: beach, drmeister: can I distribute videos of your ELS talks?  (And can you send me your slide decks?)
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2015-06-10T06:06:54Z beach: Xof: You can definitely distribute the videos of my talks.
2015-06-10T06:07:19Z beach: Xof: How would you like the slides?  By email as PDF?
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2015-06-10T06:15:55Z Xof: that would be great, thanks
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2015-06-10T06:23:37Z pjb: spacebat: indeed. My advice would be to use a different printing method for different audiences.
2015-06-10T06:24:21Z pjb: spacebat: even dispatching on different streams for print-object wouldn't be such a good idea, since you might want to print for different audiences on the same stream.
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2015-06-10T06:24:53Z pjb: spacebat: basically, consider print-object (and therefore format ~A/~S/~W) as developper/debugging output.
2015-06-10T06:25:54Z pjb: (defmethod print-admin-representation ((object class) stream) …)  (defmethod print-user-representation ((object class) stream) …)
2015-06-10T06:26:13Z pjb: Notice that you can still hook those methods to format, with ~/
2015-06-10T06:27:29Z pjb: (defun fmt-user-representation (stream arg colon at &rest parameters) (print-user-repreentation arg stream))  (format t "~A~%~:*~/fmt-user-representation/~%~:*~/fmt-admin-representation/~%" data)
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2015-06-10T06:46:01Z beach: Xof: Slides sent to  your cantab address.  Is that OK?
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2015-06-10T06:46:53Z beach: Xof: For some reason, I couldn't get the eps graph to work on this computer, so if you want a better version, you will have to wait a week or so for the talk on :reverse t.
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2015-06-10T08:13:38Z loz1: morning
2015-06-10T08:13:53Z loz1: is it ok that clsql fails on inserting object into sqlite?
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2015-06-10T08:14:27Z loz1: on CLSQL-SYS:DATABASE-LAST-AUTO-INCREMENT-ID, no applicable method for sqlite =(
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2015-06-10T08:35:07Z oleo_: morning
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2015-06-10T08:43:50Z theos: good afternoon
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2015-06-10T09:05:26Z Shinmera: Xof: Does that mean some of the ELS videos will (soon-ish) be available online?
2015-06-10T09:06:33Z Xof: yes
2015-06-10T09:06:41Z Xof: at the moment, only the tuesday afternoon slot
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2015-06-10T09:09:14Z Shinmera: Still, great news!
2015-06-10T09:09:57Z Xof: it's slow going, sorry :-(
2015-06-10T09:10:18Z Shinmera: As long as we get the videos some day, I have no complaints.
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2015-06-10T09:21:34Z splittist marvels that, at an institution which teaches video editing - including a specialised MA - it is the poor local chair that seems to be doing it all.
2015-06-10T09:21:52Z splittist: Of course, if it's actually a grad student that is being made to work, that is something else (:
2015-06-10T09:22:07Z jeaye: +The chair typically gets the ass end of everything.
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2015-06-10T09:25:04Z flip214: In Austria there's even a song "Aana hat immer des Bummerl", meaning more or less exactly that
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2015-06-10T09:28:07Z pjb: In any case, it's difficult to sit on a chair otherwise than with one's ass.
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2015-06-10T09:43:08Z smokeink: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149512 running (main) the first time works well, all widgets are shown, but running it 2nd time the window is empty and it doesn't respond to messages (clicks,etc) , what could the problem be?
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2015-06-10T09:45:45Z malice: Hello. I wanted to use macro inside defclass, which would expand into slot specifier. Macroexpand gives output I want, but defclass signals an error. Am I missing something, or is it impossible to incorporate macro inside defclass?
2015-06-10T09:46:30Z Shinmera: smokeink: Can't reproduce
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2015-06-10T09:46:36Z Shinmera: smokeink: Are you on windows perchance?
2015-06-10T09:47:52Z smokeink: no, im on linux
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2015-06-10T09:48:54Z Shinmera: No idea what the problem is then. It works fine for me.
2015-06-10T09:49:07Z Shinmera: Are there any messages in *inferior-lisp*?
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2015-06-10T09:50:03Z smokeink: yes, running (main) the 2nd time it says QApplication::exec: Must be called from the main thread
2015-06-10T09:50:10Z Shinmera: Yes that was my guess.
2015-06-10T09:50:25Z Shinmera: You should call (main) from the REPL only
2015-06-10T09:50:28Z ferada: malice: yes, generally you would want to generate the whole defclass form with a macro if you need to generate slots
2015-06-10T09:50:35Z Shinmera: Running it with C-c C-c launches it in a separate thread every time
2015-06-10T09:50:38Z Shinmera: Which Qt doesn't like.
2015-06-10T09:50:54Z smokeink: yeah works :) cool
2015-06-10T09:51:29Z malice: That's what I thought. Thanks, ferada.
2015-06-10T09:51:30Z Shinmera: I have some ideas in my head to fix this issue by having an always available "dedicated" qapplication thread that Qtools hooks into
2015-06-10T09:51:49Z Shinmera: But for now you'll have to do with the REPL.
2015-06-10T09:52:24Z smokeink: C-c C-j is fine
2015-06-10T09:52:35Z Shinmera has lots of ideas for improvements for Qtools, but no time to work on any of them at the moment
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2015-06-10T10:04:29Z otsotsots: morning Lisp. I cannot do cl-csv:read-csv on a large batch of files that all contain one degree sign each. What is the easiest way around this? I am getting an ":UTF-8 stream decoding error on #<SB-SYS:FD-STREAM" error. Running SBCL on linux...
2015-06-10T10:04:29Z minion: otsotsots, memo from pjb: have a look at http://paste.lisp.org/+37BB
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2015-06-10T10:08:13Z angus: otsotsots: open the stream using a unibyte :external-format
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2015-06-10T10:08:36Z otsotsots: angus: will try that. TY.
2015-06-10T10:09:04Z Shinmera: Alternatively, convert the files to UTF-8.
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2015-06-10T10:13:45Z otsotsots: angus: that worked perfectly. TYVM. This way should be the simplest possible. TY shinmera for your suggestion aswell.
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2015-06-10T10:13:50Z otsotsots: #lisp delivers.
2015-06-10T10:14:04Z angus: yw
2015-06-10T10:14:40Z Shinmera: otsotsots: Converting to UTF-8 might be worthwhile in general to avoid encoding mismatches in other applications.
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2015-06-10T10:23:50Z otsotsots: shinmera: in general yes. these are files from windows software for a piece of equipment I use, so I want to deal with them as little as possible:/
2015-06-10T10:24:15Z Shinmera: Understandable.
2015-06-10T10:24:17Z pjb: otsotsots: you have to identify what encoding they're stored in.
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2015-06-10T10:24:31Z pjb: otsotsots: then you can use :external-format to specify the encoding to use to decode them.
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2015-06-10T10:33:31Z otsotsots: pjb: i can set the encoding used in "open" or equivalent, but where/how can I test the encoding with lisp?
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2015-06-10T10:34:28Z pjb: You cannot test it, because it is impossible.
2015-06-10T10:34:40Z pjb: Eg. when you have a 1-1 encoding, any 1-1 encoding is "valid".
2015-06-10T10:35:03Z ggole: otsotsots: you have to get that information from somewhere other than the file contents
2015-06-10T10:35:05Z pjb: There's no way to reject any of them (but knowing what data is in there, and using heuristics and statistics).
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2015-06-10T10:35:27Z otsotsots: good, then I only need to figure it out on a case-to-case basis. And I plan on only having this one case.
2015-06-10T10:35:42Z pjb: otsotsots: that's why in HTTP, the client and server send headers to specify the encoding accepted and the encoding used to encode the data!
2015-06-10T10:36:17Z otsotsots: make sense
2015-06-10T10:36:17Z pjb: otsotsots: you have indeed to agree with the sender of the data in one way or another upon an encoding or a way to specify the encoding, perhaps with a BOM file.
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2015-06-10T10:54:52Z drmeister: Xof: Are you online?
2015-06-10T10:56:08Z drmeister: Xof: Yes, you can distribute my talk, and yes I can get you the slides. I'll email you.
2015-06-10T10:56:45Z Xof: thank you!
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2015-06-10T11:26:52Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: hi
2015-06-10T11:27:35Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: I've got problem to compile ecl-15.3.7 on mips: dive_1.c:117:4: error: impossible constraint in ‘asm’
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2015-06-10T11:45:47Z drmeister: Xof: Where should I send them to?
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2015-06-10T11:50:06Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: that looks like gmp problem, not ecl per se
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2015-06-10T11:50:47Z jackdaniel: I've updated various libraries recently (gmp for instance), not sure if you have it on your sources, neither if it helps
2015-06-10T11:50:59Z jackdaniel: i don't have mips
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2015-06-10T11:51:41Z jackdaniel: I'd suggest building ecl with system gmp
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2015-06-10T11:59:37Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: confirmed, I had to configure with gmp options and install gmp dev packages: a distro problem...
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2015-06-10T12:00:08Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: anyway this is strange, yesterday it compiles flawlessy
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2015-06-10T12:21:41Z jackdaniel: my prophetic abilities are somehow weakened, so no idea why ;-)
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2015-06-10T12:31:02Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: compiled, alive and kicking!
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2015-06-10T12:32:04Z loz1: does anybody use clsql with sqlite?
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2015-06-10T13:07:27Z Xof: drmeister: could you send them to c.rhodes@gold.ac.uk?  Thanks
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2015-06-10T13:09:56Z dim: loz1: I used cl-sqlite
2015-06-10T13:10:36Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: what is this? --> http://paste.lisp.org/display/149524
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2015-06-10T13:11:46Z loz1: dim: why?
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2015-06-10T13:12:18Z loz1: i don't see object mappings there
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2015-06-10T13:13:29Z dim: oh I avoid object mapping like the pleague
2015-06-10T13:13:34Z dim: because it's about what it is
2015-06-10T13:14:29Z oleo: hello http://paste.lisp.org/display/149525
2015-06-10T13:14:37Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: have you checked source of warning?
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2015-06-10T13:14:58Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: how?
2015-06-10T13:15:13Z jackdaniel: emacs /
2015-06-10T13:15:13Z jackdaniel: static void print_tbuf(void) { for(int i
2015-06-10T13:15:15Z jackdaniel: nah
2015-06-10T13:15:19Z jackdaniel: emacs /home/angel/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-2.13/swank-loader.lisp
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2015-06-10T13:15:34Z Posterdati: ok let me see
2015-06-10T13:15:37Z jackdaniel: C-s No architecture RET
2015-06-10T13:15:38Z oleo: lines 403-408
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2015-06-10T13:16:09Z oleo: i'm calling maxima::dbm-read for side-effect there...
2015-06-10T13:16:47Z jackdaniel: it basically means that swank doesn't have mips as predefined architecture - issue patch with mips, or whatever is in *features* to slime
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2015-06-10T13:17:09Z oleo: if anyone can help me, i'd appreciate it very much!
2015-06-10T13:17:37Z XachX: oleo: with what?
2015-06-10T13:17:46Z oleo: with http://paste.lisp.org/display/149525
2015-06-10T13:18:29Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: It still loading hunchentoot dependecies! :)
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2015-06-10T13:19:14Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: it's not an error, just warning
2015-06-10T13:19:15Z oleo: try with input 1+1; and with input ??taylor RET there....
2015-06-10T13:19:29Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: all seems to work
2015-06-10T13:19:35Z jackdaniel: i guess it is used to compose distinct name for fas files
2015-06-10T13:19:43Z jackdaniel: names°
2015-06-10T13:19:58Z Posterdati: [package cffi]
2015-06-10T13:20:09Z Cymew: oleo: I wonder if I'm missing something? Do you have an error message?
2015-06-10T13:20:09Z Posterdati: waiting to finish
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2015-06-10T13:21:50Z oleo: Cymew: http://www.picpaste.com/pics/maxima.1433942491.png
2015-06-10T13:22:40Z Cymew: Is that an error?
2015-06-10T13:23:23Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: md5 is not complaining about md5sum-string
2015-06-10T13:23:29Z oleo: look what happens after i give a number http://www.picpaste.com/pics/maxima_1.1433942585.png
2015-06-10T13:23:31Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: good
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2015-06-10T13:24:33Z Cymew: oleo: That's more like en error description, yes. Just pasting a lump of code didn't indicate that error
2015-06-10T13:24:50Z oleo: no i don't have errors, the errors are just logic ones....
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2015-06-10T13:25:25Z Cymew: oleo: So, your error is not that the graphic output is messy? Sorry man, if you can not specify your problem, nobody can help you.
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2015-06-10T13:26:13Z Cymew: My general advice is to stay away from mcclim
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2015-06-10T13:26:19Z oleo: when i return a result all is ok, when i capture output from another stream the output is done too, but actually i want the output captured
2015-06-10T13:26:32Z oleo: and returned as a result....
2015-06-10T13:27:15Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: is it faaaast!
2015-06-10T13:27:24Z oleo: ok i ignore you then Cymew......
2015-06-10T13:27:45Z Cymew: Feel free, and I hope you can get it to work
2015-06-10T13:28:05Z Cymew: I'm too stupid for CLIM...
2015-06-10T13:28:21Z oleo: it's not about clim/mcclim.....
2015-06-10T13:28:29Z oleo: it's about stream capture.....
2015-06-10T13:29:07Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149524#1
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2015-06-10T13:30:31Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: issue patch for slime with :mipsel as one of architectures if you have time
2015-06-10T13:31:19Z jackdaniel: *architecture-features* that is
2015-06-10T13:31:21Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: modifying /home/angel/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-2.13/swank-loader.lisp ???
2015-06-10T13:31:54Z jackdaniel: yes, and make pull request, or post patch as issue on github
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2015-06-10T13:34:12Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: ok, thanks
2015-06-10T13:34:52Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: *architecture-features* is unbound
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2015-06-10T13:35:30Z jackdaniel: swank-loader::*architecture-features*
2015-06-10T13:35:46Z Posterdati: found there's no mipsel
2015-06-10T13:36:03Z smokeink: Shinmera is there any way from within qtools to change the app's name from 'argv0dummy' to something else?
2015-06-10T13:36:28Z jackdaniel: yes, you have to add entry for mipsel, prepare patch and send it to slime maintainers, so everyone can benefit from it
2015-06-10T13:36:51Z Shinmera: smokeink: (setf (q+:window-title window) "title") http://doc.qt.io/qt-4.8/qwidget.html#windowTitle-prop
2015-06-10T13:37:03Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: ok, modified
2015-06-10T13:37:26Z smokeink: not just the window title, but the whole's app name. cuz when you do alt-tab there's argv0dummy showing up :)
2015-06-10T13:37:35Z jackdaniel: I'm out, have to finish battery driver
2015-06-10T13:37:38Z jackdaniel: o/
2015-06-10T13:37:42Z smokeink: just found this, perhaps you could add it to qtools https://github.com/glv2/peercoin-calculator/blob/master/gui.lisp#L134
2015-06-10T13:37:45Z Shinmera: smokeink: Oh! Uh, I'm not sure. You'll have to check the Qt docs.
2015-06-10T13:37:52Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: for what???
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2015-06-10T13:38:02Z jackdaniel: asus transformer
2015-06-10T13:38:22Z jackdaniel: dock battery precisely, but it's offtopic
2015-06-10T13:38:33Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: ok
2015-06-10T13:38:38Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: interesting
2015-06-10T13:38:53Z Shinmera: smokeink: Maybe try http://doc.qt.io/qt-4.8/qcoreapplication.html#applicationName-prop
2015-06-10T13:39:28Z Shinmera: smokeink: so (setf (q+:application-name *qapplication*) "title")
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2015-06-10T13:39:44Z Shinmera: I can't test it right now, I'm supposed to be busy studying.
2015-06-10T13:40:02Z smokeink: tried this and it didn't work (define-initializer (main-window setup) (#_QCoreApplication::setApplicationName "aoijajsd")
2015-06-10T13:40:02Z Shinmera: Still, I'll think about how to conveniently include this into Qtools.
2015-06-10T13:40:05Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: I added :mipsel to *architecture-features* and restarted emacs and slime, it hangs at ;;; Loading "/home/angel/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-2.13/swank-loader.lisp"
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2015-06-10T13:40:44Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: polling /tmp/slime.17006 .. 700
2015-06-10T13:41:10Z Shinmera: smokeink: I'll have to get back to you later on this.
2015-06-10T13:41:46Z smokeink: it's okay Shinmera, go back to your studies :) i'll use that guys function, it works well. just thought it'd be nice to have it in qtools
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2015-06-10T13:42:03Z jackdaniel: it probably recompiles everything (new directory I guess)
2015-06-10T13:42:10Z jackdaniel: but don't know
2015-06-10T13:42:16Z Shinmera: smokeink: Sure. I'd like to know about everything that could improve Qtools.
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2015-06-10T13:42:50Z smokeink: it's my first go with QT and so far it's really enjoyable. thanks to qtools
2015-06-10T13:43:01Z Shinmera: I'm glad to hear that!
2015-06-10T13:43:46Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: yes, it is compiling like hell!
2015-06-10T13:44:26Z Posterdati: cc1
2015-06-10T13:44:32Z Shinmera: smokeink: this at least seems to suggest it should work: https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TmpNMg==
2015-06-10T13:44:37Z Posterdati: 98% cpu :)
2015-06-10T13:45:35Z smokeink: what's that screenshot of ?
2015-06-10T13:45:42Z Shinmera: my REPL
2015-06-10T13:46:17Z smokeink: it looks like a 3d game
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2015-06-10T13:46:36Z Shinmera: ?
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2015-06-10T13:47:04Z smokeink: that's what i get when i open https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TmpNMg==
2015-06-10T13:47:18Z smokeink: hah
2015-06-10T13:47:26Z smokeink: it's my irssi , it didn't copy the ==
2015-06-10T13:47:31Z Shinmera: Ah..
2015-06-10T13:47:58Z Shinmera might have to rethink the file URLs.
2015-06-10T13:48:25Z jackdaniel: nice repl :D
2015-06-10T13:50:14Z smokeink: yes in the repl it works but when i actually do alt-tab to switch to the the app's main window, it shows argv0dummy
2015-06-10T13:50:31Z Shinmera: smokeink: Hm. It might be cached upon init or something.
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2015-06-10T14:00:59Z attila_lendvai: does anyone know how to globally prohibit ASDF from reloading anything? (think of an executable core compiled somewhere and running on a machine without the sources)
2015-06-10T14:01:45Z fe[nl]ix: delete the ASDF package
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2015-06-10T14:02:34Z fe[nl]ix: or fmakunbound asdf:load-op, asdf:oos and asdf:operate
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2015-06-10T14:03:26Z attila_lendvai: but then I need to find out what makes it try to reload anything. it would lead from a file not found to an undefined function. maybe I should just debug/fix this properly...
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2015-06-10T14:05:51Z dlowe: redefine them to a function that does nothing
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2015-06-10T14:11:46Z Shinmera: smokeink: the fix for the WITH-MAIN-WINDOW is in.
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2015-06-10T14:15:27Z smokeink: awesome :)
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2015-06-10T14:20:40Z smokeink: Shinmera, i pulled the last changes but it gives me this System "qt-libs" not found , where can i get these qt-libs from
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2015-06-10T14:21:03Z Shinmera: from my github as well.
2015-06-10T14:21:46Z Shinmera: or actually
2015-06-10T14:21:49Z Shinmera: just update quicklisp
2015-06-10T14:22:00Z Shinmera: The new dist was released just today after all.
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2015-06-10T14:24:06Z attila_lendvai decides to procrastinate this issue
2015-06-10T14:24:09Z gko: http://cl-http.org:8000/ down ?
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2015-06-10T14:35:05Z XachX: It was actually released a couple days ago, but the cable company cut my house off from the network without warning and it's been a few days resolving
2015-06-10T14:35:14Z XachX: (still in progress)
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2015-06-10T14:36:22Z Shinmera: Oh dear.
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2015-06-10T14:37:55Z smokeink: Shinmera: my hello world code now gives few errors, what should i change http://paste.lisp.org/display/149528
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2015-06-10T14:38:40Z Shinmera: smokeink: you need to load :qtcore and :qtgui as well, preferably in your ASDF system.
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2015-06-10T14:39:34Z smokeink: ok, works perfectly
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2015-06-10T14:39:48Z Shinmera: That change was mostly to avoid having to load the shared libraries during compilation of Qtools.
2015-06-10T14:40:01Z Shinmera: Doing so before caused instability on some systems, resulting in premature memory faults.
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2015-06-10T14:52:01Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
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2015-06-10T14:52:16Z Shinmera: Hullo beach.
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2015-06-10T14:53:01Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-06-10T14:54:13Z smokeink: hello
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2015-06-10T15:07:05Z drmeister: Hi beach.
2015-06-10T15:07:21Z drmeister: I implemented what we talked about last night.
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2015-06-10T15:07:53Z dlowe: drmeister: I was sick and missed your talk :(
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2015-06-10T15:09:40Z drmeister: dlowe: Too bad - I'll post a link soon.
2015-06-10T15:09:44Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149529
2015-06-10T15:09:51Z dlowe: awesome. thanks.
2015-06-10T15:10:55Z drmeister: beach: The above paste is an overengineered solution to compiling/evaluating complex forms (non-atoms) with Cleavir and atoms with bbclasp.
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2015-06-10T15:12:46Z Shinmera: Blah. I just now discovered that Qtools' previous deployment strategy doesn't work unless you constrain yourself to the core and gui smoke modules.
2015-06-10T15:13:05Z Shinmera: I fixed it now, but it'll be a month before the next QL release.
2015-06-10T15:15:57Z XachX: Argh. common-lisp.net slime_latest.tgz was not updated, and I never noticed it.
2015-06-10T15:16:24Z beach: drmeister: As long as it works, I suppose it's OK.
2015-06-10T15:16:27Z XachX: luis: should i rig something up to pull from github instead? I can try to scrape the releases info or something.
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2015-06-10T15:17:24Z XachX: luis: right now I use https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/slime_latest.tar.gz
2015-06-10T15:17:30Z XachX: that has 2.13 still
2015-06-10T15:17:36Z clop: on ccl/sbcl/cmucl/clisp it seems that (eq ::foo :foo) is true.  on GCL ::foo causes an error.  anyone know if that's legal or buggy per the common lisp spec?
2015-06-10T15:18:00Z XachX: clop: undefined consequences
2015-06-10T15:18:08Z XachX: clop: hang on, i can show you where it says that
2015-06-10T15:18:22Z clop: awesome, thanks
2015-06-10T15:18:46Z XachX: http://l1sp.org/cl/2.3.5
2015-06-10T15:19:11Z XachX: clop: where it's undefined but most implementations do the same thing, sometimes you can persuade an outlier to adapt its behavior...
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2015-06-10T15:39:52Z drmeister: I'm checking it out now.
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2015-06-10T16:11:32Z cheryllium: Good morning all
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2015-06-10T16:23:56Z jasom: is it possible to list currently loaded asdf systems?
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2015-06-10T16:24:55Z jasom: ah (asdf:already-loaded-systems)
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2015-06-10T16:28:11Z jasom: suggestions for a logging library?
2015-06-10T16:28:16Z Shinmera: Verbose.
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2015-06-10T16:28:24Z Shinmera: http://shinmera.github.io/verbose/
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2015-06-10T16:28:37Z Shinmera: Otherwise, log4cl seems to be the popular choice.
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2015-06-10T16:30:37Z nyef: jasom: (defparameter *logfile* "somewhere.log") (defun log (format &rest args) (with-open-file (f *logfile* :direction :output :if-exists :append) (format f format args))), and get fancier if you need fancier.
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2015-06-10T16:35:14Z jasom discovered that log4cl sometimes executes its body multiple times
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2015-06-10T16:51:27Z Shinmera: If anyone wants to try out Halftone real quick (a CL image viewer), I uploaded pre-built linux binaries that /should/ run with no additional installation necessary outside of Qt4.8 https://github.com/Shinmera/halftone/releases/tag/1.0.0
2015-06-10T16:51:55Z Shinmera: (and you most likely already have Qt4 anyway)
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2015-06-10T16:57:09Z jasom: Shinmera: debugger invoked on a SIMPLE-ERROR in thread
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2015-06-10T16:58:20Z Shinmera: Aw man.
2015-06-10T16:58:22Z jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149534
2015-06-10T16:58:27Z jasom: That was after playing with it for a bit
2015-06-10T16:59:19Z Shinmera: Yeah, I forgot to deactivate the debugger and handle load failures.
2015-06-10T16:59:42Z Shinmera always forgets something
2015-06-10T16:59:54Z Shinmera: Still, at least it seems to work otherwise!
2015-06-10T17:01:53Z jasom: right
2015-06-10T17:01:59Z jasom: the other question is why loading the image failed
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2015-06-10T17:02:21Z jasom: hmm, xzgv doesn't like that file either
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2015-06-10T17:02:38Z jasom: hmm 0 bytes in size, that's odd
2015-06-10T17:02:50Z jasom: so not halftone's fault
2015-06-10T17:02:51Z Shinmera: Wrong file type?
2015-06-10T17:02:58Z jasom: truncated file
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2015-06-10T17:23:37Z jlarocco: Shinmera: when I exit using "File" -> "Quit" I get a message about a memory fault and the integrity of the image being compromised
2015-06-10T17:23:49Z jlarocco: to the terminal
2015-06-10T17:24:01Z dim: jasom: I'm using cl-log, happily so
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2015-06-10T17:33:20Z dim: jasom: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/utils/logs.lisp
2015-06-10T17:33:47Z dim: and also https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/utils/monitor.lisp
2015-06-10T17:34:06Z beach: drmeister: Any progress?
2015-06-10T17:34:31Z dim: because pgloader is multi-threaded, a single thread is responsible for the logging (and some more), so that e.g. CCL doesn't choke when mutliple threads are opening and writing into the same stream
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2015-06-10T17:44:26Z Shinmera: jlarocco: Yeah, that's an SBCL thing. I don't know why.
2015-06-10T17:44:47Z Shinmera: jlarocco: At that point it doesn't really matter though.
2015-06-10T17:45:16Z Shinmera: dim: Verbose does that for you out of the box
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2015-06-10T17:48:44Z jasom: Shinmera: are you using uiop:quit to exit?
2015-06-10T17:49:10Z Shinmera: Yes.
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2015-06-10T17:49:46Z jasom: that's really odd... maybe a subtle bug in commonqt
2015-06-10T17:49:52Z Shinmera: That's after the UI itself already quits, though
2015-06-10T17:50:14Z Shinmera: Closing the window or using the command just terminates Qt's main loop.
2015-06-10T17:50:39Z Shinmera: No matter whether I let the program run to its natural end or explicitly invoke quit, SBCL stalls for 60 seconds and then memory faults and exits.
2015-06-10T17:51:36Z Shinmera: Maybe it has to do with stray threads sitting around or something. I don't really know at this point as I haven't investigated thoroughly.
2015-06-10T17:51:41Z dim: Shinmera: I don't know about Verbose?
2015-06-10T17:51:53Z Shinmera: dim: http://shinmera.github.io/verbose/
2015-06-10T17:51:58Z dim: thx
2015-06-10T17:52:51Z Shinmera: I think the current version (1.2.0) just didn't quite make it into the latest quicklisp, so the docs are a tiny bit newer than the QL release.
2015-06-10T17:53:46Z dim: Shinmera: verbose looks very nice, I will have a try at it for my next project, thanks!
2015-06-10T17:54:04Z Shinmera: dim: Let me know if there's anything lacking or going badly. I appreciate all feedback!
2015-06-10T17:54:25Z dim: sure
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2015-06-10T17:54:58Z dim: I have to see about piping too, it might be quite a good fit for pgloader
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2015-06-10T17:55:35Z Shinmera: I don't know about that. It's really awkward to set it up, and I haven't been able to figure out how to fix that.
2015-06-10T17:55:53Z Shinmera: Well, more cumbersome than awkward, really.
2015-06-10T17:56:23Z Shinmera: Either way, it probably could use a bunch of improvements if someone actually used it to some extent :)
2015-06-10T17:56:37Z dim: well I'm more interested into performances and multi-threading of the workload in pgloader, some flexibility is required too
2015-06-10T17:57:08Z dim: in a next version of pgloader I want to introduce multiple writers per reader, with filtering depending on the data itself
2015-06-10T17:57:35Z dim: also I wanted to test if using a unix socket would be faster than using lparallel.queue
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2015-06-10T17:58:02Z Shinmera: Piping doesn't really have anything to do with multithreading per se, so I don't know if that fits what I'm understanding you describing right now.
2015-06-10T17:58:22Z dim: I would have each piping segment in its own thread, basically
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2015-06-10T17:59:25Z Shinmera: Hmm.
2015-06-10T17:59:35Z Shinmera: I might see about extending it for something like that.
2015-06-10T17:59:38Z Shinmera makes a note
2015-06-10T17:59:48Z dim: well not a good fit is a good answer too, don't worry too much ;-)
2015-06-10T18:00:05Z Shinmera: Piping's purpose is more to distribute messages to different consumers, passing through filters and modifiers along the way.
2015-06-10T18:00:28Z Shinmera: Which fits nicely for logging purposes where you want to have varying outputs that filter messages differently.
2015-06-10T18:01:39Z dim: pgloader reads data from a source (file, database service, etc) and process it (transforming some values) then send it down to PostgreSQL using its streaming protocol, in batches, catching errors and retrying batches until only erroneous data is left out
2015-06-10T18:01:53Z dim: so basically read | transform | copy
2015-06-10T18:02:04Z dim: copy being the streaming protocol for PostgreSQL
2015-06-10T18:02:13Z Shinmera: I see.
2015-06-10T18:02:28Z dim: I want to have: read | filter-to-multiple-queues | transform | copy
2015-06-10T18:02:37Z dim: or maybe read | transform | filter | copy
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2015-06-10T18:03:03Z dim: what is not represented in that poor ascii diagram is having more transform/filter/copy threads than read threads active
2015-06-10T18:03:26Z dim: (some kind of branching)
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2015-06-10T18:28:45Z gamma2: this game is so addicting... Super Mario Mushroom https://www.criosphinx.net/boards/arcade.php?do=play&gameid=137
2015-06-10T18:28:46Z gamma2: this game is so addicting... Super Mario Mushroom https://www.criosphinx.net/boards/arcade.php?do=play&gameid=137
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2015-06-10T18:35:20Z jasom: dim: downside with unix socket is you need to serialize/deserialize the data
2015-06-10T18:35:32Z jasom: lparallel.queue lets you directly send lisp objects IIRC
2015-06-10T18:36:49Z jasom: If a unix socket is faster than an lparallel queue, maybe try something like zeroMQ inproc sockets, which I know are faster than unix sockets
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2015-06-10T18:38:38Z jasom: and 0mq (or nanomsg if you want the "new hotness") does have various methods for having multiple producers and/or consumers
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2015-06-10T18:54:08Z tmtwd: what is the equicalent of cider-jack-in for slime?
2015-06-10T18:55:49Z drmeister: beach: I see you are still on but may not be up. I was at Google for a couple of hours and haven't gotten back to coding.
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2015-06-10T18:57:23Z drmeister: I should be able to give you feedback tonight. But my test case compiled fine. It switches between cclasp and  bclasp compilers smoothly.
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2015-06-10T19:00:29Z Xach: tmtwd: what is cider-jack-in?
2015-06-10T19:00:41Z tmtwd: its for clojure...
2015-06-10T19:00:54Z tmtwd: I have clisp installed and running, and I have slime installed
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2015-06-10T19:01:05Z H4ns: M-x slime
2015-06-10T19:01:24Z H4ns: why are so many newcomers using clisp nowadays?
2015-06-10T19:02:05Z tmtwd: apply: Searching for program: no such file or directory, lisp
2015-06-10T19:02:18Z tmtwd: H4ns, probably land of lisp recommends it?
2015-06-10T19:02:23Z tmtwd: I started with sbcl
2015-06-10T19:02:42Z tmtwd: but I wanted to read land of lisp, figured it would be easier to use what it was using
2015-06-10T19:02:47Z H4ns: tmtwd: (setq inferior-lisp-program "sbcl")
2015-06-10T19:03:07Z tmtwd: huh? is that a joke?
2015-06-10T19:03:11Z H4ns: (or clisp)
2015-06-10T19:03:16Z H4ns: what is a joke?
2015-06-10T19:03:38Z tmtwd: what is (setq inferior-lisp-program "sbcl")
2015-06-10T19:03:39Z tmtwd: ?
2015-06-10T19:03:57Z H4ns: tmtwd: it is what you put into your emacs to tell slime which emacs implementation it should use.
2015-06-10T19:04:05Z tmtwd: oh
2015-06-10T19:04:09Z tmtwd: i see
2015-06-10T19:04:25Z tmtwd: I read inferior and it sounded like it was ironic hehe
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2015-06-10T19:04:36Z tmtwd: does it go in init.el?
2015-06-10T19:04:59Z H4ns: it is in my ~/.emacs, but it could be that there is a newer fad
2015-06-10T19:05:04Z tmtwd: ok
2015-06-10T19:05:05Z tmtwd: :)
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2015-06-10T19:14:53Z tmtwd: H4ns, Sweet! its working thanks
2015-06-10T19:15:10Z H4ns: enjoy!
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2015-06-10T19:16:11Z emaczen: How do i convert an array of Chars to a string?
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2015-06-10T19:18:12Z Xach: emaczen: there are many options. coerce is one easy way. (coerce array 'string)
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2015-06-10T19:18:57Z Xach: emaczen: a string is an array of characters. the important distinction is that it is specialized to hold characters. general arrays that just happen to hold characters aren't strings.
2015-06-10T19:19:23Z emaczen: (type-of ) evaluates to (SIMPLE-ARRAY (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) (48))
2015-06-10T19:19:35Z Grue`: I think (map 'string #'identity array) might also work
2015-06-10T19:19:57Z Xach: emaczen: ok, that is an array of unsigned-bytes, not characters.
2015-06-10T19:20:21Z Xach: emaczen: you have to decide how you want to interpret the bytes. what is the encoding?
2015-06-10T19:20:27Z Grue`: ok, replace #'identity with #'code-char
2015-06-10T19:20:43Z Grue`: or whatever
2015-06-10T19:20:47Z Xach: that might work if it's encoded as ascii or latin-1.
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2015-06-10T19:20:59Z emaczen: Grue`: That works!
2015-06-10T19:21:00Z emaczen: Thanks
2015-06-10T19:21:12Z Xach: otherwise trivial-utf-8, babel, or something else, or something non-portable might be easier.
2015-06-10T19:21:15Z Grue`: woo, I havent even REPL'd that
2015-06-10T19:21:25Z Xach: emaczen: what is the encoding of the data?
2015-06-10T19:21:43Z emaczen: Xach: How can I check?
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2015-06-10T19:21:53Z Xach: emaczen: where did you get the data?
2015-06-10T19:21:56Z emaczen: Yahoo
2015-06-10T19:22:01Z Xach: emaczen: via http?
2015-06-10T19:22:07Z emaczen: Xach: Correct
2015-06-10T19:22:15Z Xach: emaczen: you can possibly check the Content-Type header for encoding info.
2015-06-10T19:22:43Z emaczen: I set content-type to "text/csv"
2015-06-10T19:23:09Z Xach: emaczen: yahoo provides the content-type header.
2015-06-10T19:23:13Z Xach: emaczen: it precedes the data
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2015-06-10T19:24:20Z Grue`: emaczen: check out http://weitz.de/flexi-streams/#octets-to-string
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2015-06-10T19:37:09Z tmtwd: is there a command to load a .lisp file into a slime repl?
2015-06-10T19:37:25Z akkad: (load "foo.lisp")
2015-06-10T19:37:27Z fourier: (load "filename.lisp")
2015-06-10T19:37:38Z fourier: akkad: :)
2015-06-10T19:38:00Z tmtwd: sweet works perfectly
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2015-06-10T19:39:14Z Xach: C-c C-l while visiting the file is pretty common too.
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2015-06-10T19:43:23Z tmtwd: (defparameter *small* 1)
2015-06-10T19:43:23Z tmtwd: (defparameter *big* 100)
2015-06-10T19:43:23Z tmtwd: (defun guess-my-number ()
2015-06-10T19:43:23Z tmtwd:   (ash (+ *small* *big*) - 1))
2015-06-10T19:43:35Z tmtwd: why doesn't this code work?
2015-06-10T19:43:45Z tmtwd: I copied it from land of lisp
2015-06-10T19:44:16Z tmtwd: (guess-my-number) throws EVAL: too many arguments given to ASH: #1=(ASH (+ *SMALL* *BIG*)
2015-06-10T19:44:16Z tmtwd:     - 1)
2015-06-10T19:44:21Z Xach: tmtwd: there is no space between - and 1
2015-06-10T19:44:28Z Xach: tmtwd: if the book has a space, the book has a typo
2015-06-10T19:45:15Z tmtwd: *blush* hehe
2015-06-10T19:45:19Z tmtwd: my bad
2015-06-10T19:45:42Z cheryllium: How do I ssh into common-lisp.net? I tried ssh name@common-lisp.net...
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2015-06-10T19:51:39Z jackdaniel: cheryllium: works for me
2015-06-10T19:51:39Z tokenrove: cheryllium: try ssh name@ssh.common-lisp.net.
2015-06-10T19:51:59Z cheryllium: oh wait I feel silly now
2015-06-10T19:52:12Z jackdaniel: (just checked) name@common-lisp.net host works
2015-06-10T19:52:14Z cheryllium: it was a problem with my internet connection
2015-06-10T19:52:23Z cheryllium: sorry for bothering :(
2015-06-10T19:52:37Z jackdaniel: no problem
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2015-06-10T20:07:10Z puchacz: hi, can anybody help me understand #:uninterned-symbol please
2015-06-10T20:07:21Z puchacz: e.g. parenscript uses this notation extensively
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2015-06-10T20:08:11Z puchacz: according to clhs, it means "not accessible to any package"
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2015-06-10T20:09:16Z dlowe: that's about it - it's a symbol that has no package
2015-06-10T20:09:37Z puchacz: but I can access named things from parenscript using ps: package prefix
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2015-06-10T20:10:15Z dlowe: sure, but not an interned symbol. Not only that, but uninterned symbols aren't necessarily EQ to each other.
2015-06-10T20:10:38Z dlowe: you'll notice when you call (gensym), it returns an uninterned symbol
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2015-06-10T20:11:12Z puchacz: to be specific, what's the difference between (in-package #:parenscript) -- actually being used
2015-06-10T20:11:13Z dlowe: so some functions in CL take "string designators," which can be symbols or strings
2015-06-10T20:11:20Z puchacz: and (in-package :parenscript) as I would have written it
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2015-06-10T20:11:38Z dlowe: right. Well, using :parenscript will create a symbol PARENSCRIPT in the KEYWORD package
2015-06-10T20:11:51Z dlowe: where it will be for all eternity, or the life of your image
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2015-06-10T20:12:37Z dlowe: Using #:parenscript allows you to use a symbol, following internal case guidelines, but without having it pollute a package's namespace
2015-06-10T20:12:39Z puchacz: (eq '#:bla '#:bla) ---> NIL
2015-06-10T20:13:15Z puchacz: so #:bla is like a string "bla" but using some reader machinery?
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2015-06-10T20:13:43Z Xach: #:bla is a symbol with a symbol-name of "BLA" (or "bla" depending on settings)
2015-06-10T20:14:02Z dlowe: what Xach said
2015-06-10T20:14:13Z puchacz: ha, they are not even equalp: (equalp '#:bla '#:bla) ---> NIL
2015-06-10T20:14:31Z puchacz: only that
2015-06-10T20:14:33Z puchacz: (equal (symbol-name '#:bla) (symbol-name '#:bla)) ---> T
2015-06-10T20:14:57Z puchacz: does it mean that a library that uses uninterned symbols can use them only by their names, as I did above?
2015-06-10T20:15:26Z Xach: puchacz: that is one very common use of uninterned symbols, for their names
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2015-06-10T20:15:48Z dlowe: the other is to have symbols that can't be duplicated, for use in macros
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2015-06-10T20:17:04Z puchacz: (let ((x (gensym))) (eq x x)) ---> T
2015-06-10T20:17:17Z puchacz: as expected, otherwise macros wouldn't work
2015-06-10T20:17:35Z puchacz: generated "names" for variables in macros I mean
2015-06-10T20:17:54Z puchacz: (let ((x '#:bla)) (eq x x)) ---> also T
2015-06-10T20:18:00Z puchacz: ok, I think I got it
2015-06-10T20:18:36Z puchacz: each time an uninterned symbol is created, it is a new object, right?
2015-06-10T20:19:10Z jackdaniel: and it's not persistant, so it is collected by gc
2015-06-10T20:19:13Z jackdaniel: symbols are fat
2015-06-10T20:20:06Z puchacz: thanks
2015-06-10T20:20:23Z Xach: make-symbol, copy-symbol are a couple other ways to make uninterned symbols.
2015-06-10T20:21:17Z puchacz: interestingly, (:export ....) in defpackage takes uninterned symbols
2015-06-10T20:21:32Z puchacz: and this is precisely where you want things to be accessed by these symbols from other places
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2015-06-10T20:22:25Z Xach: puchacz: no, it doesn't.
2015-06-10T20:22:54Z Xach: puchacz: (:export ...) takes string designators. uninterned symbols designate the string that is their name.
2015-06-10T20:23:45Z puchacz: okay - so I could very well write "PS" instead of #:ps in export (if readtable is standard and upcasing), right?
2015-06-10T20:24:06Z Xach: puchacz: yes
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2015-06-10T20:24:25Z jasom: anyone know who mobius engineering is?  There is a seemingly related wordpress site and github account, but I know nothing else about them
2015-06-10T20:25:02Z puchacz: another - related thing, please. what does :invert setting on readtable do?
2015-06-10T20:25:15Z puchacz: I cannot understand clhs wording here
2015-06-10T20:26:31Z puchacz: parenscript uses :invert as well
2015-06-10T20:26:54Z PuercoPop: jasom: how did making Eclipse CL use ecmascripten goes/went if you don't mind me asking?
2015-06-10T20:27:12Z Xach: puchacz: for symbol names, the reader makes "foo" into "FOO" and "FOO" into "foo", but if there is mixed case, no conversion is done.
2015-06-10T20:27:34Z Xach: puchacz: so (list 'foo 'Bar 'BAZ) has names of ("FOO" "Bar" "baz")
2015-06-10T20:28:34Z puchacz: understand. thanks all :-)
2015-06-10T20:29:28Z puchacz: ah, can I observe it in REPL? like (let ((*magic-variable* :invert)) (list 'foo 'Bar 'BAZ)) -> has names as Xach said?
2015-06-10T20:29:56Z Xach: puchacz: yes, hang on.
2015-06-10T20:30:19Z Xach: puchacz: although not like that - the entire form is read before the binding takes place
2015-06-10T20:30:28Z Xach: puchacz: you could use read-from-string to observe it at runtime.
2015-06-10T20:30:38Z puchacz: right
2015-06-10T20:30:54Z puchacz: don't worry, I will play with it somehow
2015-06-10T20:30:58Z puchacz: thanks!
2015-06-10T20:31:44Z Xach: (let ((*readtable* (copy-readtable))) (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :invert) (read-from-string "(foo Bar BAZ)"))
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2015-06-10T20:32:29Z puchacz: indeed. mixed case names are displayed with |Pipes|
2015-06-10T20:32:32Z puchacz: makes sense
2015-06-10T20:32:47Z puchacz: actually all non-standard case names
2015-06-10T20:33:39Z Xach: That is so they can read as the same object under the current reader settings
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2015-06-10T20:51:01Z jasom: PuercoPop: I hit a wall
2015-06-10T20:51:22Z jasom: PuercoPop: a generic function lookup during initialization is failing on emscripten, and I can't figure out why
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2015-06-10T20:53:33Z jasom: PuercoPop: it's hard to debug complicated structures on emscripten, and I haven't had time to look at it
2015-06-10T20:54:00Z jasom: I also had surgery so am catching up on work and other things
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2015-06-10T20:57:36Z emaczen: (map 'list (lambda ..) sequence) is returning a list of symbols, how can I concatenate these symbols into a string in the map form? I suspect of course (map 'string ...) but I don't know what type the lambda should return.
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2015-06-10T20:58:02Z emaczen: It appears that map 'string expects a sequence of chars, but not all of the elements of my sequence type are of 1 byte.
2015-06-10T20:58:20Z Bike: (apply #'concatenate 'string (map 'list ...)) is the obvious
2015-06-10T20:58:56Z emaczen: Bike: I need to learn apply better, but is there a way with just the map form?
2015-06-10T20:59:17Z Bike: not if the function can return more than one character.
2015-06-10T20:59:25Z jasom: emaczen: that's not what map is for
2015-06-10T20:59:42Z Bike: each call to the function sets one and only one element of the returned whatever.
2015-06-10T21:00:01Z jasom: emaczen: if you hit the arguemnt limit, you could use reduce instead of apply, but that will be very slow
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2015-06-10T21:00:28Z jasom: emaczen: map is for a sequence of N elemnets in and a sequence of N elements out
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2015-06-10T21:01:04Z emaczen: Yeah, I should have given more details
2015-06-10T21:01:08Z emaczen: Let me try again
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2015-06-10T21:01:45Z emaczen: '(N S X O L1 R5) I'm getting this from (map 'list (lambda (key) (gethash key hash)) codes)
2015-06-10T21:02:07Z emaczen: It would be nice if I could just change the 'list to a 'string but the last two elements are 2 bytes each.
2015-06-10T21:02:34Z jasom: right, so that would be 6 elements in and 8 elements out
2015-06-10T21:02:49Z jasom: which map won't do
2015-06-10T21:03:53Z emaczen: ahh gotchya
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2015-06-10T21:04:56Z jasom: for that I would do something like this: (with-output-to-string (s) (loop for key in codes (format s "~A" (gethash key has)))
2015-06-10T21:05:13Z emaczen: I was just going to ask about loop
2015-06-10T21:05:26Z jasom: you can replace the format with write-sequence if you know that the values will definitely be strings
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2015-06-10T21:06:04Z dim: jasom: thanks for the hint about zeromq!
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2015-06-10T21:06:26Z jasom: in most lisp implementations with-output-to-string is the most efficient way to build up a string piecemiel (assuming you don't know the final length of the string ahead of time)
2015-06-10T21:06:30Z dim: about the serialisation, I already need to do that to format the data in the COPY text protocol, so I pay that price whatever the transport layer choice
2015-06-10T21:07:03Z jasom: dim: np, I understand that nanomsg is where the zmq developers are using for future development, but the docs aren't as good yet
2015-06-10T21:07:27Z dim: I would prefer not to depend on another .so lib tho
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2015-06-10T21:07:31Z dim: it
2015-06-10T21:07:34Z jasom: of course
2015-06-10T21:07:48Z dim: it's the hell to ship a lisp binary image with .so dependencies
2015-06-10T21:08:07Z jasom: well zmq has the advantage there, as it's in most distros pm system at least
2015-06-10T21:08:26Z dim: well depending on openssl is already a major pain
2015-06-10T21:08:29Z Shinmera: dim: Indeed. I had a hell of a time to get Qtools' deployment system to work nicely.
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2015-06-10T21:08:49Z jasom: DLLs suck
2015-06-10T21:08:50Z dim: I still have bugs about .so loading at image startup to fix
2015-06-10T21:09:06Z dim: not image startup per-se, even, it's loaded on first use when possible
2015-06-10T21:09:38Z jasom: One thing I like about nix is that it fixes the .so dependencies; it's a lot more sane
2015-06-10T21:09:39Z dim: the problem is that for me to fix that thing I need to fix other libs that are loading the modules, and well, it's also that I don't know how to
2015-06-10T21:09:50Z dim: jasom: we are talking .so here
2015-06-10T21:09:55Z p_l: Shipping *anything* with shared lib deps is hell outside of maybe VMS or windows in fully COM-based, C++ free app
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2015-06-10T21:10:14Z dim: see https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/229 or https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/226 for examples
2015-06-10T21:10:16Z p_l: If you want to be fully safe, you need to ship the dynamic linker as well
2015-06-10T21:10:33Z dim: or rewrite the dependency in pure CL and stop bothering
2015-06-10T21:10:51Z dim: openssl, sqlite, freetds are on my list already
2015-06-10T21:11:04Z Shinmera: jasom: For Qtools it was a lot of fun because by default CommonQt uses paths that definitely won't be around anymore after the image is deployed and resumed. So I needed to intercept that, manually track and close all foreign libraries, put them beside the binary, and then manually load them again to ensure that it can find them.
2015-06-10T21:11:10Z dim: who's in to rewrite those in pure CL? I already worked on the MySQL driver...
2015-06-10T21:11:23Z Shinmera: *manually load them when the image is started
2015-06-10T21:11:51Z dim: Shinmera: so you will have a very well informed opinion about https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/hooks.lisp
2015-06-10T21:12:40Z Shinmera: dim: The system I currently have is only tailored to the Qt libs, but I intend to generalise it to offer a system that is hookable to handle other libraries as well.
2015-06-10T21:12:58Z Shinmera: (See https://github.com/Shinmera/qtools/blob/master/deploy.lisp )
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2015-06-10T21:14:36Z jasom: do *any* lisp implementations let you statically link foreign code to your image?
2015-06-10T21:14:53Z Shinmera: I haven't heard of that, but I haven't looked around either.
2015-06-10T21:14:59Z Shinmera: It /would/ be very nice.
2015-06-10T21:15:44Z oGMo: you can with SBCL
2015-06-10T21:15:55Z dim: jasom: ECL and drmeister's clasp would be where I would look
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2015-06-10T21:16:14Z dim: oGMo: you need to include the libs' sources at compile time I guess?
2015-06-10T21:16:15Z oGMo: if you hack the build of the binary iirc, photex got SDL2 and some stuff linked
2015-06-10T21:16:16Z jasom: dim: I know you can statically link with ecl, but I don't know if you could get the symbol addresses for FFI
2015-06-10T21:16:20Z oGMo: dim: right
2015-06-10T21:16:57Z oGMo: dim: presumably you're building for some kind of binary distribution, so probably not an issue
2015-06-10T21:17:08Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2015-06-10T21:17:39Z dim: well I would love being able to ship with OpenSSL and stuff statically included in the binary that's for sure
2015-06-10T21:17:47Z dim: do you have any pointers?
2015-06-10T21:17:59Z Shinmera can't afford that solution for Qtools
2015-06-10T21:18:18Z dim: to break from hell it's either that or shipping docker images
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2015-06-10T21:20:48Z jasom: dim, Shinmera: have you tried wrapping with a shell script and doing LD_PRELOAD stuffing?
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2015-06-10T21:21:13Z Shinmera: jasom: No, but I'd rather not have shell anything involved.
2015-06-10T21:21:21Z jasom: Shinmera: fair enough
2015-06-10T21:21:42Z dim: jasom: the whole thing is that I am not the user here
2015-06-10T21:21:50Z nyef: Okay, use a gimmicked toplevel that sets the environment variable and does an exec().
2015-06-10T21:22:18Z Shinmera: Setting environment variables is not portably available. (in the very least, uiop doesn't cover it)
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2015-06-10T21:22:29Z dim: I release a binary image and people I've never met before are going to download that and run the thing, and sometimes it doesn't run because of .so briken dependencies, and they open bugs because my software is then known broken
2015-06-10T21:22:38Z jasom: I hate DLLs.  I also hate libraries that detect that you've statically linked them and then try to load a dll from the system anyway (I'm looking at you glibc)
2015-06-10T21:22:56Z nyef: Use execvpe() then!
2015-06-10T21:23:56Z dim: actually starting an "inferior process" and consuming its output might be a good idea in lots of cases
2015-06-10T21:24:22Z dim: plus I need to do that for pg_restore to be able to have pg dumps as a pgloader source...
2015-06-10T21:24:48Z Shinmera: dim: I don't know how you handle image generation right now, but having to hook into SBCL/CCL's stuff seems sketchy to me. I could avoid all of that by extending ASDF's program-op, as shown in the lower halves of that deploy.lisp
2015-06-10T21:25:07Z dim: I'm using buildapp
2015-06-10T21:25:32Z dim: and I'm quite the asdf noob still
2015-06-10T21:25:34Z Shinmera: I see. I'm just using (asdf:operate :program-op :system) now.
2015-06-10T21:25:40Z Shinmera: Works like a charm.
2015-06-10T21:26:04Z Shinmera: (what exact operation that invokes and how it finds the entry point etc is covered by the system definition)
2015-06-10T21:26:13Z dim: my audience is sysadmins and dbas that typically never heard of lisp anywhere but in historical references, mostly jokes about parens
2015-06-10T21:26:25Z Shinmera: Eg https://github.com/Shinmera/halftone/blob/master/halftone.asd#L33
2015-06-10T21:26:29Z dim: and they are like "oh it's a dynamic interpreted thing of no practical interest"
2015-06-10T21:26:42Z Shinmera: ^those three are all you need now to allow building and automatically deploying a Qt/Qtools application
2015-06-10T21:26:42Z jasom: dim: hopefully sysadmins know how to resolve missing DLLs?
2015-06-10T21:26:58Z nyef: A dynamic interpreted thing of no practical interest? Sounds like RETURN EXECUTE QUERY to me!
2015-06-10T21:27:19Z dim: they do /usr/bin/pgloader and it works and that's it, and if they have to look at anything they are like "wtf is it weighting 20MB?", and I answer to them "well because thankfully it's been compressed very effectively from 100MB."
2015-06-10T21:27:25Z jasom: dim: you could handle the condition from load-foreign-library with a good error message?
2015-06-10T21:27:51Z dim: An unhandled error condition has been signalled: Undefined alien: "SSL_get_version"
2015-06-10T21:28:02Z dim: that's the error message I can spit out now, in cases
2015-06-10T21:28:08Z dim: they have openssl installed
2015-06-10T21:28:24Z dim: and openssl-devel
2015-06-10T21:28:32Z Shinmera: jasom: Oh by the way, I fixed the error that you got in Halftone. It now simply suppresses them, which works fine enough.
2015-06-10T21:28:37Z dim: and they could rebuild pgloader from sources, and still have the problem when starting the binary
2015-06-10T21:28:44Z jasom: Shinmera: thanks
2015-06-10T21:28:55Z dim: (in the https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/226 case at least)
2015-06-10T21:29:07Z Shinmera: A new binary is also uploaded, though I don't know if anyone's going to be using Halftone as anyone but a neat show case of a CL GUI.
2015-06-10T21:29:11Z dim: if it sounds fishy to you, that's good, it does to me
2015-06-10T21:29:13Z Shinmera: *as anything
2015-06-10T21:29:16Z Shinmera is tired
2015-06-10T21:29:38Z jasom: Shinmera: out of curiousity, what is your native language?
2015-06-10T21:29:44Z Shinmera: jasom: Swiss German
2015-06-10T21:30:18Z Shinmera: jasom: What prompted the question?
2015-06-10T21:30:46Z jasom: Shinmera: japanese nickname with a germanic surname
2015-06-10T21:31:06Z Shinmera: Ah. Well, it only sounds Japanese. It's not a word or anything.
2015-06-10T21:32:47Z Shinmera: dim: Knowing people's environment variables would be good for that particular ticket.
2015-06-10T21:33:01Z Shinmera: as well as general locations of the libs in question, I suppose.
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2015-06-10T21:33:32Z dim: well a full-static build would be even better, maybe
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2015-06-10T21:34:04Z Shinmera: I really wish things weren't so all over the place. There's /lib /usr/lib /usr/local/lib /whoknows/what/where and that's only on linuxes, I don't even want to think about what OS X does or the fresh hell that is Windows.
2015-06-10T21:34:46Z jasom: Shinmera: at least windows defaults to searching the directory with the executable for dlls
2015-06-10T21:35:08Z Shinmera: jasom: Yeah. It really pissed me off that I had to do that manually through CFFI for linuxes.
2015-06-10T21:35:20Z jasom: Shinmera: that's a neat trick you do though
2015-06-10T21:35:36Z Shinmera: jasom: Which one?
2015-06-10T21:35:54Z jasom: Shinmera: having CFFI search the executable location for dlls
2015-06-10T21:36:01Z dim: Shinmera: I wouldn't know what to make of the environement and full paths of installed files, really
2015-06-10T21:36:11Z jasom: if you really want to cry, look at how steam manages DLLs
2015-06-10T21:36:23Z Shinmera: dim: Well it would give an idea of why it can't find the lib in question or something.
2015-06-10T21:36:27Z Shinmera: jasom: I have.
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2015-06-10T21:37:54Z Shinmera: While people are active: Could someone with a Mac OS X setup try quickloading :qt-libs? I wasn't able to get any guinea pigs to test it for me before it got pulled into this month's QL dist.
2015-06-10T21:38:52Z dim: do I need to have Qt installed for the test to be worthwile?
2015-06-10T21:38:53Z Bike: Oh, is steam and dynamic libraries terrible on windows too?
2015-06-10T21:38:59Z Shinmera: dim: yes.
2015-06-10T21:39:05Z jasom: Bike: I was talking about on linux
2015-06-10T21:39:10Z dim: I don't think I have that, can I check easily?
2015-06-10T21:39:28Z Shinmera: dim: I think so. See if you have qmake or qmake-qt4 available.
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2015-06-10T21:39:43Z dim: /usr/local/bin/qmake
2015-06-10T21:39:52Z Bike: oh, ok.
2015-06-10T21:40:00Z Shinmera: dim: what does qmake --version report?
2015-06-10T21:40:05Z dim: no qmake-qt4 around tho
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2015-06-10T21:40:12Z dim: QMake version 2.01a
2015-06-10T21:40:13Z dim: Using Qt version 4.8.5 in /usr/local/Cellar/qt/4.8.5/lib
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2015-06-10T21:40:17Z Shinmera: Ok, that's good.
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2015-06-10T21:40:23Z Shinmera: I think you should be good to test then.
2015-06-10T21:40:42Z Shinmera: If not, it should error. It checks all the dependencies I know of.
2015-06-10T21:40:46Z dim: oh, I didn't upgrade ql yet
2015-06-10T21:40:51Z dim: there's a SLIME problem I want to avoid
2015-06-10T21:41:06Z dim: I'm still on sbcl 1.2.12...
2015-06-10T21:41:32Z Shinmera: dim: you can fix that, Xach blogged about it. http://lispblog.xach.com/post/121194508398/slime-2-13-and-sbcl-1-2-12-error-the-value-nil-is
2015-06-10T21:41:49Z dim: yeah I was trying to find that, thanks
2015-06-10T21:42:40Z dim: updating all dists
2015-06-10T21:43:32Z dim: quickloading qt-libs
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2015-06-10T21:43:59Z dim: cpp warnings galore
2015-06-10T21:44:01Z Shinmera: It'd be really neat if Travis allowed more requests for OS X test instances again, then I wouldn't have to bother anyone.
2015-06-10T21:44:24Z Shinmera: dim: as long as it doesn't throw you into the lisp debugger everything should be fine.
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2015-06-10T21:44:38Z dim: Subprocess (:PROCESS #<SB-IMPL::PROCESS :EXITED 2>) run with command "env LD_LIBRARY_PATH=\"/Users/dim/.cache/common-lisp/sbcl-1.2.12-macosx-x64/Users/dim/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/qt-libs-20150608-git/smokegen/install/lib/:/Users/dim/.cache/common-lisp/sbcl-1.2.12-macosx-x64/Users/dim/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/qt-libs-20150608-git/smokegen/install/lib/smokeqt/\" make -j 2 -C \"/Users/dim/.cache/co
2015-06-10T21:44:38Z dim: mmon-lisp/sbcl-1.2.12-macosx-x64/Users/dim/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/qt-libs-20150608-git/smokeqt/generate/\" -f \"Makefile\"" exited with error code 2
2015-06-10T21:44:38Z dim:    [Condition of type UIOP/RUN-PROGRAM:SUBPROCESS-ERROR]
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2015-06-10T21:44:48Z dim: I'm in the debugger now
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2015-06-10T21:44:53Z Shinmera: Haah- as expected.
2015-06-10T21:45:04Z Shinmera: Can you paste the stuff it printed to the repl somewhere?
2015-06-10T21:45:19Z dim: sure
2015-06-10T21:45:23Z Shinmera: Everything after the quickload call.
2015-06-10T21:45:52Z dim: Paste too large.
2015-06-10T21:46:09Z Shinmera: What kind of paste service limits paste size
2015-06-10T21:46:29Z dim: well http://paste.lisp.org/
2015-06-10T21:46:59Z Shinmera: make a gist or pastebin or whatever. It's not lisp code, so it doesn't really matter.
2015-06-10T21:47:10Z dim: ok http://pgsql.privatepaste.com/3e970445d3
2015-06-10T21:47:17Z Shinmera throws a suspicious glance towards lisppaste though
2015-06-10T21:48:03Z dim: I'm going to have to get my sleep
2015-06-10T21:48:10Z dim: anything I should do before that?
2015-06-10T21:48:10Z Shinmera: Sure, thanks!
2015-06-10T21:48:16Z Shinmera: Nah, I'll have to think on this.
2015-06-10T21:48:19Z dim: or rather, could ;-)
2015-06-10T21:48:20Z dim: ok
2015-06-10T21:48:27Z Shinmera: Good night!
2015-06-10T21:48:57Z fourier: Shinmera: I'm trying to quickload qt-libs with sbcl on osx
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2015-06-10T21:49:27Z Shinmera: fourier: You'll most likely get the same error as dim just pasted.
2015-06-10T21:49:56Z fourier: Shinmera: yes exactly
2015-06-10T21:50:05Z dim: see, you would have got your report anyway ;-)
2015-06-10T21:50:32Z fourier: using qt installed through macports
2015-06-10T21:50:38Z Shinmera: Does OS X use some separate env var aside from LD_LIBRARY_PATH to specify dylibs?
2015-06-10T21:51:04Z Shinmera: The problem is that smokegen can't find the libxppparser.dylib file.
2015-06-10T21:51:10Z Shinmera: *cppparser
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2015-06-10T21:51:21Z dim: there's always the relocatable bits in the libs themselves, but that's way beyond my head
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2015-06-10T21:51:40Z Shinmera: Ah, apparently there's DYLD_LIBRAY_PATH
2015-06-10T21:51:43Z Shinmera sighs
2015-06-10T21:52:06Z fourier: Shinmera: yep http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3146274/is-it-ok-to-use-dyld-library-path-on-mac-os-x-and-whats-the-dynamic-library-s
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2015-06-10T21:54:42Z PuercoPop: jasom: sorry to hear, hope you've recovered. you should consider pushing your wip to gh.
2015-06-10T21:58:19Z Shinmera: fourier: If you have the patience, could you clone https://github.com/Shinmera/qt-libs to ~/quicklisp/local-projects , restart your image, and try loading :qt-libs again?
2015-06-10T21:58:29Z Shinmera: It should hopefully use the correct env var now.
2015-06-10T21:58:51Z fourier: Shinmera: yep I can try it
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2015-06-10T21:59:13Z jasom: PuercoPop: yeah, I'll do that
2015-06-10T21:59:26Z jasom: PuercoPop: tonight, if I remember
2015-06-10T22:00:10Z jasom: I'll need to fix the code generator in eclipse too; right now I've just manually changed the .c files, even those generated by eclipse itself
2015-06-10T22:01:09Z fourier: Shinmera: still some problems: http://pastebin.com/cgtn7tw2
2015-06-10T22:01:36Z Shinmera: whoops.
2015-06-10T22:03:40Z fourier: Shinmera: looks like you forgot space after ""
2015-06-10T22:03:42Z Shinmera: fourier: try a pull and once more
2015-06-10T22:03:44Z Shinmera: yeah
2015-06-10T22:05:08Z Shinmera: The perils of not being able to test quickly
2015-06-10T22:06:13Z fourier: It is just not enough test environments available :) it is continuing to compile something
2015-06-10T22:06:31Z fourier: Now it is done successfully
2015-06-10T22:06:36Z Shinmera: That was quick!
2015-06-10T22:06:41Z Shinmera: Usually it takes some minutes.
2015-06-10T22:06:56Z Shinmera: So it loaded :qt-libs fully?
2015-06-10T22:07:02Z fourier: yep
2015-06-10T22:07:11Z Shinmera: Cool, can you try: (qt:make-qapplication)
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2015-06-10T22:07:21Z fourier: 2,2 GHz Intel Core i7, 16 GB RAM. Pretty quick machine
2015-06-10T22:07:59Z Shinmera: I have a 3.33GHz Xeon and it takes a while longer. Though it might also be that smokeqt doesn't compile all its contribs for your system.
2015-06-10T22:09:02Z Shinmera: Does the make-qapplication call return successfully?
2015-06-10T22:09:22Z fourier: Now it doesn't work: http://pastebin.com/RMAmL0kk
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2015-06-10T22:10:49Z Shinmera: Hmm. What does (uiop:directory-files qt-libs:*standalone-libs-dir*) return?
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2015-06-10T22:12:01Z fourier: http://pastebin.com/TpzAjC19
2015-06-10T22:12:24Z Shinmera: I see.
2015-06-10T22:14:47Z Shinmera: Bloody version numbers, I knew they'd come to bite me once more
2015-06-10T22:15:25Z fourier: Here is the results of find http://pastebin.com/AaXcKLdT
2015-06-10T22:15:55Z Shinmera: Yeah, that's fine. I already know what's going wrong.
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2015-06-10T22:20:27Z fourier: Is it possible to configure quicklisp to put system-index.txt somewhere not with my sources?
2015-06-10T22:20:54Z fourier: like .quicklisp/cache etc
2015-06-10T22:21:00Z Oladon quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2015-06-10T22:22:04Z Shinmera: I just put a single symlink to my actual projects folder within local-projects.
2015-06-10T22:22:45Z fourier: ahha, that's an idea
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2015-06-10T22:22:54Z Shinmera: Also, I think I may have pushed a fix. Can you try again? (quickloading, followed by the make-qapplication call)
2015-06-10T22:23:06Z fourier: yep sure
2015-06-10T22:23:24Z Shinmera: If you do that though, you'll have to remember to invoke ql:register-local-projects whenever you add new ASD files to your projects, since quicklisp otherwise only searches one directory deep.
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2015-06-10T22:26:25Z fourier: hm, how to uninstall and install again qt-libs?
2015-06-10T22:26:37Z Shinmera: No need to test it all again.
2015-06-10T22:26:42Z fourier: ok
2015-06-10T22:26:57Z Shinmera: The only problem remaining now is the standalone libs gathering
2015-06-10T22:28:48Z Shinmera: Otherwise, if you really want to, doing (asdf:load-system :qt-libs :force T) should work.
2015-06-10T22:29:17Z Shinmera: or not.
2015-06-10T22:29:19Z Shinmera: Nevermind!
2015-06-10T22:29:48Z fourier: oh shit I made qt:uninstall by some reason and now can't quickload it again :(
2015-06-10T22:29:57Z Shinmera: ?
2015-06-10T22:30:08Z Shinmera: you mean ql:uninstall ?
2015-06-10T22:30:13Z fourier: yep
2015-06-10T22:30:28Z Shinmera: It probably removed the sources then. Just clone it anew.
2015-06-10T22:33:41Z fourier: hm same error
2015-06-10T22:34:02Z fourier: almost
2015-06-10T22:34:05Z fourier: sec
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2015-06-10T22:34:31Z fourier: http://pastebin.com/P6VR5Rqi
2015-06-10T22:35:09Z fourier: paths are http://pastebin.com/cqSysvj0
2015-06-10T22:35:37Z fourier: and I'm going to sleep :( already can't type properly
2015-06-10T22:35:43Z Shinmera: Hmm, strange.
2015-06-10T22:35:48Z Shinmera: At least the paths are correct so far.
2015-06-10T22:35:52Z Shinmera: Thanks for helping me test, and good night!
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2015-06-10T22:37:08Z fourier: thanks :) bb
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2015-06-10T23:38:24Z luis: Xach: ahrg, sorry. I forgot to run the script that updates the tarball and the webpage manual :(
2015-06-10T23:38:49Z Xach: luis: no problem. this will probably finally prod me into making a github release fetcher. i have a lot of other code in support of it.
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2015-06-10T23:48:40Z luis: Anyway, fixed it.
2015-06-10T23:49:49Z Xach: thanks!
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2015-06-10T23:57:24Z akkad: Xach any known gotchas wrt to ql and allegro?
2015-06-10T23:57:35Z Xach: akkad: No
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2015-06-10T23:57:59Z akkad: thx
2015-06-10T23:58:00Z Xach: akkad: there are a lot fewer allegro quicklisp users, so it's possible that the gotchas have just remained hidden
2015-06-10T23:58:11Z akkad: k
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2015-06-11T01:41:10Z drmeister: Hey folks, I talked at Google in Cambridge Mass. today.
2015-06-11T01:41:25Z drmeister: It looks like a really great place to work.
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2015-06-11T01:42:24Z drmeister: But then all you people who do programming for a living might be working in fun places for all I know.
2015-06-11T01:46:05Z drmeister: What struck me about it was Google puts a lot of thought and investment into creating a place that they hope will inspire creativity in people.
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2015-06-11T01:55:19Z pjb`: dlowe: no, string designator is not (or string symbol).  It's (or string symbol character)  (defpackage #\a) (in-package #\a)
2015-06-11T01:56:06Z nyef: drmeister: I can't help but wonder, what would a smaller company with that kind of attitude about workspaces be like?
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2015-06-11T02:02:20Z drmeister: I don't know and I wonder if it's effective.
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2015-06-11T02:04:50Z drmeister: There's no way to quantitate it. Although I guess they make themselves attractive and attract good people.
2015-06-11T02:05:58Z drmeister: I had a great time talking with Doug and James, they had a lot of great suggestions.
2015-06-11T02:06:14Z drmeister: And Martin was a fantastic host.
2015-06-11T02:06:18Z pjb`: jasom: clisp let you statically link foreign code into it, as "modules".  They are usually dynamic, but one should still be able to make them static.
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2015-06-11T02:11:34Z pjb`: jasom: actually, most implementations still have a little stub of code written in C (ie. to implement main), instead of generating an executable directly without crt1.o.  Therefore it is usually trivial to add static libraries to the ld command to add static libraries to them.
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2015-06-11T02:13:38Z drmeister: Clasp lets you link code to it statically or dynamically.
2015-06-11T02:15:48Z pjb`: jasom: if you kee the debugging info in the executable, then the symbol table is kept and you can find them with cffi.
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2015-06-11T02:22:20Z Fare: drmeister: don't worry, Google takes away that creativity in other ways, too
2015-06-11T02:22:38Z Fare: still doing great overall, I'd say.
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2015-06-11T02:22:46Z drmeister: Oh good. So it all balances out.
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2015-06-11T02:40:03Z Petit_Dejeuner: "<drmeister> But then all you people who do programming for a living might be working in fun places for all I know." It would be fun to start a company that only deals with other companies. No pandering to consumers.
2015-06-11T02:40:51Z Petit_Dejeuner: Until Google or equivlent tries to buy it out.
2015-06-11T02:41:29Z theos: you cant buy something if the owner isnt selling
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2015-06-11T02:42:13Z Petit_Dejeuner: True.
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2015-06-11T02:43:06Z pjb`: theos: you, no.  But Apple, Google, and other companies like they, yes, they can buy anything.
2015-06-11T02:43:35Z theos: pjb` not if you dont want to sell
2015-06-11T02:43:49Z Petit_Dejeuner: Coercion?
2015-06-11T02:43:56Z pjb`: You fail to realize that those companies are bigger than most countries on this planet.  They are who finance and direct the US government and the US armies.
2015-06-11T02:43:57Z Petit_Dejeuner: I'm not sure what that would look like.
2015-06-11T02:44:28Z Petit_Dejeuner: I thought Apple and Google were relatively small.
2015-06-11T02:44:47Z theos: you can always so what yahoo owner does when he smells a hostile takeover. he scares them with a poison pill under his tooth
2015-06-11T02:44:56Z pjb`: Petit_Dejeuner: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/apple/11232749/Apple-now-bigger-than-Russias-stock-market.html
2015-06-11T02:46:10Z theos: that comparison is not a good one. its like people comparing the GDP of some poor country with the net value of apple. the argument is flawed
2015-06-11T02:46:41Z Petit_Dejeuner: "russia" "some poor country" You'll make putin sad.
2015-06-11T02:46:43Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-06-11T02:46:45Z pjb`: the argument is that Apple can have more profit than the Russian state taxes.
2015-06-11T02:46:59Z pjb`: therefore Apple could wage a better war than Russia.
2015-06-11T02:47:56Z Petit_Dejeuner: pjb`, Idk, when I think of a strong company I think finance or some kind of conglomerate that's eating entire industries.
2015-06-11T02:47:58Z theos: if apple is smart, it will fund both sides instead
2015-06-11T02:48:07Z Petit_Dejeuner: er, "strong company" meaning "world owner/illuminati"
2015-06-11T02:48:09Z pjb`: Petit_Dejeuner: of course, banks are bigger.
2015-06-11T02:48:12Z drmeister: Hi beach.
2015-06-11T02:48:41Z pjb`: that's why Apple doesn't military attacks Russia: Russia is already owned by banks.
2015-06-11T02:49:13Z Petit_Dejeuner: ALso, that article reads a bit like FUD "Meanwhile, Russia has been struggling to cope with a falling rouble and tough Western sanctions as a result of its conflict in eastern Ukraine."
2015-06-11T02:49:13Z beach: drmeister: Did your test work?
2015-06-11T02:49:19Z drmeister: beach: I'm prety sure I fixed eval so that it picks the right compiler for the form that it gets.
2015-06-11T02:49:31Z beach: drmeister: Excellent.
2015-06-11T02:49:32Z drmeister: beach: it works in the test cases that I gave it that failed before.
2015-06-11T02:49:44Z pjb`: Petit_Dejeuner: there's a bigger flaw: it uses money to make the comparison.
2015-06-11T02:49:48Z beach: drmeister: I improved the comment in eval.lisp so that it would make a bit more sense.
2015-06-11T02:50:10Z Petit_Dejeuner: pjb`, I don't understand.
2015-06-11T02:50:45Z drmeister: However when I tried to compile ASDF I hit a lambda-list that caused an error but the condition doesn't seem to be defined.  I may be missing a Cleavir ASDF system that I should be depending on.
2015-06-11T02:50:47Z pjb`: You could compare the number of Apple employees and the number of Russian citizen.  You could compare the surface of terrain owned by Apple and by Russia, etc.
2015-06-11T02:50:52Z drmeister: I sent you an email about it.
2015-06-11T02:50:53Z beach: Try to stay on topic, please.
2015-06-11T02:51:35Z drmeister: beach: What you told me last night about eval made perfect sense.
2015-06-11T02:52:05Z beach: drmeister: OK, I'll look into it.  I deliberately use symbols for conditions in calls to ERROR, and that means the non-existence of the corresponding condition is not caught.
2015-06-11T02:52:05Z beach:  
2015-06-11T02:52:33Z drmeister: beach: Is my top level cleavir-env:function-info supposed to indicate that cleavir-primop:consp (and others) are special operators?
2015-06-11T02:52:53Z drmeister: I searched the Cleavir code to see if you do it in there somewhere but I couldn't find anything.
2015-06-11T02:53:30Z beach: I believe that is true, yes.
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2015-06-11T02:54:14Z drmeister: When I do:   (cleavir-generate-ast: form *clasp-env* ...) where form is '(lambda (x) (if (cleavir-primop:consp x) t nil))    it complains that it doesn't know what cleavir-primop:consp is.
2015-06-11T02:54:18Z beach: Is there such a thing?  cleavir-primop:consp?
2015-06-11T02:54:33Z drmeister: Yeah, I think you added it.
2015-06-11T02:54:35Z drmeister: Hang on.
2015-06-11T02:54:38Z beach: OK.
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2015-06-11T02:54:59Z beach: Yeah probably, since there is a consp-instruction.
2015-06-11T02:55:23Z drmeister: Yeah, it's defined in:   sicl/Code/Cleavir/Primop/packages.lisp
2015-06-11T02:55:31Z beach: OK.
2015-06-11T02:55:43Z theos just found out that "CL-a gentle intro to symbolic computation" is a decent book.
2015-06-11T02:55:43Z drmeister: I asked about it a couple of weeks ago and I guess you added it.  I didn't check the github logs.
2015-06-11T02:55:50Z beach: And I think the logic is that it first checks whether function-info says that it's special.
2015-06-11T02:56:05Z drmeister: Ok, so I said that it was special and I get this...
2015-06-11T02:56:28Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/1zKzclbN/
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2015-06-11T02:56:55Z drmeister: In:
2015-06-11T02:57:03Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/TaPKyv8q/
2015-06-11T02:57:48Z beach: Hold on, it is taking time to connect to irccloud.
2015-06-11T02:57:53Z drmeister: I think it's missing as an oversight.
2015-06-11T02:58:33Z drmeister: You have check-special-form-syntax for other cleavir-primop's but not consp.   I think it's just an oversight when you added cleavir-primop:consp
2015-06-11T02:59:15Z beach: It is possible.
2015-06-11T02:59:34Z beach: When I am a bit more awake, I'll have a look.
2015-06-11T02:59:42Z drmeister: Actually, you define that method for cleavir-primop:car, cdr, rplaca, rplacd
2015-06-11T02:59:45Z drmeister: Sure, no problem.
2015-06-11T03:00:01Z beach: You can define it for the time being.  So that you can proceed.
2015-06-11T03:00:03Z drmeister: I'm determined to make some progress in speeding clasp up.
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2015-06-11T03:01:05Z beach: Good.  Perhaps the visit to Google encouraged you?
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2015-06-11T03:03:44Z Zhivago: Speaking of Google, you might find people who want to use your compiler there.
2015-06-11T03:03:58Z Zhivago: C++ integration of the ITA code would probably be popular. :)
2015-06-11T03:05:07Z drmeister: Yeah, they were impressed but nobody is really going to pay attention until it's fast.
2015-06-11T03:05:55Z drmeister: Zhivago: Perhaps, but the CL performance has to be comparable or better than SBCL. That's a big challenge.
2015-06-11T03:06:25Z Zhivago: Hmm, I suspect they'd take some loss on that side for the integration.
2015-06-11T03:08:38Z drmeister: Maybe, but now what I have now.
2015-06-11T03:08:58Z drmeister: Anyway, I'm not working for Google but I would love some help.
2015-06-11T03:09:12Z drmeister: And they had a nice cafeteria.
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2015-06-11T03:12:09Z drmeister: beach: Do I need to explicitly depend on sicl-additional-conditions.asd  ?
2015-06-11T03:12:45Z drmeister: I hit an error (lambda-list-must-be-proper-list)   when compiling ASDF and the condition wasn't available.
2015-06-11T03:14:34Z drmeister: I guess there is no harm.
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2015-06-11T03:16:19Z drmeister: beach: Another question that came up.  LLVM does inlining and Cleavir does inlining.  I currently can't take advantage of much of LLVM's inlining capabilities because my calling convention is kind of messed up.
2015-06-11T03:16:56Z drmeister: But if I could, do you have any thoughts on when I would want one rather than the other?   That might be a difficult question to answer because you aren't familiar with LLVM inlining.
2015-06-11T03:17:41Z drmeister: The LLVM inlining would let me inline C++ code.  So I could write CONSP in C++ and have LLVM inline it.
2015-06-11T03:17:45Z beach: drmeister: If that condition is defined by that system, then you must probably depend on that system.
2015-06-11T03:18:47Z Fare: Zhivago: I doubt the QPX team will sacrifice any ounce of speed to C++ integration
2015-06-11T03:19:05Z Fare: they are speed junkies... and for good reasons.
2015-06-11T03:19:10Z beach: drmeister: Unless you use Cleavir inlining, you won't be able to take advantage of type inference later.
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2015-06-11T03:19:57Z beach: drmeister: Unless LLVM can do Common Lisp type inference on code that it has no idea what it might be doing.
2015-06-11T03:21:05Z drmeister: The ERROR lambda-list-must-be-proper-list is signaled in sicl/Code/Cleavir/Code-utilities/lambda-lists.lisp  and there is a condition with that name defined in sicl/Code/Conditions/Additional/conditions.lisp
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2015-06-11T03:21:35Z Fare: QPX has a lot of butt-ugly code that is that way because they are speed junkies.
2015-06-11T03:21:42Z drmeister: beach: Got it - type inference - that must be done with Cleavir inlining.
2015-06-11T03:21:43Z beach: drmeister: Then depend on the system in which that condition is defined, yes.
2015-06-11T03:22:51Z drmeister: I'm not sure it's in the right package - I've depended on sicl-additional-conditions - I'll know in an hour or so.
2015-06-11T03:23:07Z beach: drmeister: I added the syntax check for CONSP.  There are others that are undefined.
2015-06-11T03:23:11Z beach: I'll work on those later.
2015-06-11T03:23:41Z JokesOnYou77: Hi all.
2015-06-11T03:23:51Z drmeister: No problem.  I'll start with consp, car and cdr, rplaca and rplacd
2015-06-11T03:24:00Z beach: drmeister: Like I said, it is possible that the symbol mentioned in ERROR does not name a condition, because there can be no warning about it at compile time, so the error must be hit to tell.
2015-06-11T03:24:13Z beach: Hello JokesOnYou77.
2015-06-11T03:24:50Z beach: drmeister: I will be happy to stick a package prefix on a symbol if you tell me which one.
2015-06-11T03:25:19Z drmeister: Great! Hang on.
2015-06-11T03:25:34Z JokesOnYou77: What algorithm does sbcl use for Sort?  If anyone knows what allegro or LW uses I'll take that as well
2015-06-11T03:25:40Z JokesOnYou77: Hi beach :)
2015-06-11T03:25:54Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/VvvQczra/
2015-06-11T03:26:21Z beach: JokesOnYou77: It depends on whether you are using SORT or STABLE-SORT and whether you are sorting a list or a vector.
2015-06-11T03:26:23Z drmeister: it's in sicl/Code/Cleavir/Code-utilities/lambda-lists.lisp
2015-06-11T03:27:10Z JokesOnYou77: beach, Really? I had no idea.  I've never even used STABLE-SORT actually.  Do you know which uses what?
2015-06-11T03:27:46Z beach: JokesOnYou77: I used to.  But I forget.
2015-06-11T03:27:59Z beach: JokesOnYou77: In the worst case, check with #sbcl.
2015-06-11T03:28:22Z nyef: JokesOnYou77: Or, failing that, "use the source, luke!"
2015-06-11T03:28:36Z beach: JokesOnYou77: STABLE-SORT on a vector uses merge sort with an additional vector as a buffer.
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2015-06-11T03:28:47Z nyef: Honestly, a simple M-. on SORT should find the implementation fairly quickly.
2015-06-11T03:29:02Z nyef: (And if it doesn't, you don't have your SLIME or your SBCL set up correctly.)
2015-06-11T03:29:16Z JokesOnYou77: beach, thanks. lol.  I may actually do that.  I brought up flashsort in a discussion and then got to wondering what lisp actually does
2015-06-11T03:30:12Z JokesOnYou77: nyef, Alas, my sbcl on my desktop is very broken :/  I'm running of of a LispWorks image I built at work.
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2015-06-11T03:30:32Z nyef: Fair enough, I guess.
2015-06-11T03:31:10Z nyef: I finally set up a working SBCL instance on my machine for general hacking, but haven't yet bothered setting up SLIME. I don't know if I ever will.
2015-06-11T03:31:45Z beach: drmeister: I see that the additional condition required is in a non-Cleavir system.
2015-06-11T03:32:39Z JokesOnYou77: Meh, we had allegro at school.  And after using both LW and franz IDEs I still strongly prefer emacs.  I actually like Lisp + emacs better than anything else to tell the truth.  I got so used to being able to load-compile-run the function what I was working on instantly I forgot how much of a pain that is in other languages
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2015-06-11T03:33:11Z beach: drmeister: I need to do some nontrivial surgery here.  For one thing I need to make sure that a Cleavir symbol used in ERROR has a condition type defined in some Cleavir system.
2015-06-11T03:34:59Z drmeister:  beach: no problem - it came up when I compiled asdf with cclasp. I can try that again tomorrow. It's painfully slow
2015-06-11T03:37:45Z beach: drmeister: Do you know the reason why the condition was signaled?
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2015-06-11T03:42:29Z drmeister: Nope, that's why I'm asking because the condition contains the offending lambda list
2015-06-11T03:43:13Z drmeister: I can't get much debugging info on cleavir compiled code.
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2015-06-11T03:43:32Z beach: I see.
2015-06-11T03:44:40Z beach: drmeister: Surely, ERROR is a Clasp function and you can check what arguments were passed to it.  No?
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2015-06-11T03:45:37Z beach: But perhaps it was compiled with the new compiler.
2015-06-11T03:45:41Z drmeister: Nope, those values don't have dwarf debugging info attached to them yet. It's moved up in priority.
2015-06-11T03:46:03Z drmeister: Yes, it's the new compiler.
2015-06-11T03:49:33Z drmeister: It should be easier to add dwarf info to variables and I'll be better able to debug clasp generated code with lldb.
2015-06-11T03:50:37Z drmeister: But getting access to them from slime will not be possible until I can parse dwarf. Oh well.
2015-06-11T03:51:48Z drmeister: Is the source tracking API in place in cleavir?
2015-06-11T03:52:31Z drmeister: I know I've asked this before and I'm jumping all over the place. The last couple of days have been unsettling.
2015-06-11T03:53:50Z beach: I understand.
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2015-06-11T03:53:55Z beach: I sent you some email.
2015-06-11T03:54:30Z beach: I can't remember how much is left for the source-tracking API.
2015-06-11T03:54:37Z beach: Shouldn't be much.
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2015-06-11T04:18:41Z jasom: PuercoPop: I'm making sure a clone of my version of eclipse-lisp will build, then I'll put up what I have so far on github
2015-06-11T04:19:07Z tmtwd: how can I quit a command in the slime repl?
2015-06-11T04:19:20Z jasom: tmtwd: C-c C-c probably
2015-06-11T04:19:54Z beach: tmtwd: What does it mean to "quit a command"?
2015-06-11T04:20:14Z jasom: beach: I wasn't sure about that either which is why I added "probably"
2015-06-11T04:20:25Z tmtwd: hm, I accidentally typed ), before (
2015-06-11T04:20:40Z jasom: tmtwd: then just delete it?
2015-06-11T04:20:47Z tmtwd: I can't backspace
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2015-06-11T04:21:17Z jasom: C-c C-c will abort running the current command
2015-06-11T04:22:17Z tmtwd: okay I just aborted from slime hehe
2015-06-11T04:22:50Z beach: You can't backspace in Emacs?  Wow.
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2015-06-11T04:23:53Z jasom uses evil so: Esc x
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2015-06-11T04:26:03Z JokesOnYou77: I think the emacs C-g may also be helpful?  I know I used to get stuck in the emacs command prompt a lot when I was learning
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2015-06-11T04:28:10Z jasom: oh yeah, C-g is the first command every emacs user should learn
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2015-06-11T04:28:58Z drmeister: beach: The source tracking seems to be working somewhat from SLDB.
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2015-06-11T04:30:08Z beach: drmeister: Which source-tracking system is working?
2015-06-11T04:30:10Z pillton: jasom: No. C-h t is. C-g is on the first page.
2015-06-11T04:31:24Z drmeister: When I hit 'v' it jumps me to the correct function.  I'm guessing I set it up to get it from the function invocation history stack that I set up.
2015-06-11T04:31:38Z drmeister: So at least I have that.
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2015-06-11T04:36:41Z beach: drmeister: I meant, what system is doing the source tracking.  Not Cleavir I presume.
2015-06-11T04:37:57Z drmeister: No, my reader keeps track of source positions.
2015-06-11T04:38:10Z drmeister: Oh wait.  This is bclasp running Cleavir - never mind.
2015-06-11T04:38:48Z drmeister: bclasp generates source location information.
2015-06-11T04:39:01Z beach: Sure.
2015-06-11T04:39:03Z drmeister: I have trouble keeping track of what compiler I'm running.
2015-06-11T04:39:39Z drmeister: bclasp, bclasp running cleavir, cclasp - phew.
2015-06-11T04:40:12Z JokesOnYou77 head explodes
2015-06-11T04:40:50Z beach: ... and no simplification possible for reasons of bootstrapping.
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2015-06-11T04:44:37Z Fare: if bootstrapping is so hard, maybe the language wasn't properly layered enough?
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2015-06-11T04:45:20Z beach: What language?  Common Lisp?
2015-06-11T04:45:26Z Fare: yes
2015-06-11T04:45:43Z Fare: and by extension, its direct implementation
2015-06-11T04:45:53Z beach: That is very possible.  It is very intertwined.
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2015-06-11T04:46:10Z Fare: what I would have liked, would be a kernel lisp on top of which to layer CL
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2015-06-11T04:46:20Z jasom: any significant subset of common-lisp requires significant runtime support
2015-06-11T04:46:25Z Fare: (to reuse the words of hbaker)
2015-06-11T04:46:29Z jasom: Fare: like how Qi/Shen/whatever it's called is implemented?
2015-06-11T04:47:02Z beach: Fare: However, I am intent to show that bootstrapping Common Lisp can be done simply and elegantly.
2015-06-11T04:47:18Z Fare: jasom: the implementation of which being ad hoc informally-specified bug-ridden and slow ?
2015-06-11T04:47:50Z Fare: jasom: yes, though perhaps making different choices than Shen regarding the expressiveness and performance of the chosen core.
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2015-06-11T04:48:17Z jasom: Shen has been ported to many runtimes thanks to its specification
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2015-06-11T04:48:33Z Fare: jasom: did that serve it well?
2015-06-11T04:48:41Z jasom: hard to say
2015-06-11T04:48:56Z Fare: I remain unconvinced by the result
2015-06-11T04:50:57Z jasom: The problem with implementing it on top of a kernel language is that if your kernel language is too low-level, your performance will hurt anytime its primitives do not match well with the underlying runtime, and if it's too high-level it becomes almost as hard to implement as your final language
2015-06-11T04:55:18Z jasom wonders how hard it would be to implement common lisp in scheme
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2015-06-11T04:55:43Z jasom: there is a scheme running just about anywhere I would want to run common lisp
2015-06-11T05:02:19Z Petit_Dejeuner: Is there some kind of software used to build documentation for projects? I keep seeing pages with this format. http://weitz.de/flexi-streams/
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2015-06-11T05:10:44Z edgar-rft: Petit_Dejeuner: see http://weitz.de/documentation-template/
2015-06-11T05:11:13Z beach: Petit_Dejeuner: Documentation can't be built.  It must be written.
2015-06-11T05:11:26Z Petit_Dejeuner: Thanks. Also, point taken.
2015-06-11T05:12:19Z jasom: PuercoPop: github.com/jasom/eclipse-lisp
2015-06-11T05:12:28Z beach: Generating documentation from docstrings is generally a bad idea.  Docstrings are noise to maintainers, so they tend to be short.  Also, there is usually no place to attach general concepts, so they are typically missing.  In short, documentation created this way is usually mediocre.
2015-06-11T05:14:33Z beach: By separating source code, (i.e., using (SETF DOCUMENTATION)) the noise problem can be fixed, so that such documentation is more extensive, but the second problem still remains.
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2015-06-11T05:15:21Z Fare: jasom: that's why I want my kernel language to be a meta-language
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2015-06-11T05:16:25Z Fare: i.e. start with the general compiler infrastructure to implement other simpler languages rather than with the language implementation
2015-06-11T05:16:55Z Fare: this is at least partly what beach and drmeister are doing
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2015-06-11T05:46:45Z drmeister: beach: I got a little farther along and ran into an assertion failure when I compile this:   (clasp-cleavir::cleavir-compile 'consp '(lambda (x) (if (cleavir-primop:consp x) t nil)) :debug t)
2015-06-11T05:47:03Z drmeister: Does this assertion ring any bells?
2015-06-11T05:47:05Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/BHw5oAkY/
2015-06-11T05:47:29Z drmeister: It's in:  CLEAVIR-AST-TO-HIR::CHECK-CONTEXT-FOR-BOOLEAN-AST
2015-06-11T05:49:34Z drmeister: Moving up the call stack a little it's in CLEAVIR-AST-TO-HIR::COMPILE-AST where the AST is a CONSP-AST
2015-06-11T05:49:53Z drmeister: Here's the relevant part of the stack trace:
2015-06-11T05:49:56Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/1PrvKavg/
2015-06-11T05:50:44Z drmeister: I'm heading to bed so there's no need to respond right away.  I'll check the logs.
2015-06-11T05:51:17Z beach: I am thinking you are using CONSP where a value is required.
2015-06-11T05:51:33Z beach: It is only allowed in the conditional of an IF.
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2015-06-11T05:53:57Z beach: drmeister: So your function CONSP must defined as (IF (CLEAVIR-PRIMOP:CONSP X) T NIL)
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2015-06-11T05:54:58Z drmeister: That's how I defined it I thought.
2015-06-11T05:55:41Z drmeister: I compile this:   (clasp-cleavir::cleavir-compile 'consp '(lambda (x) (if (cleavir-primop:consp x) t nil)) :debug t)
2015-06-11T05:56:23Z drmeister: Am I doing something incorrectly?
2015-06-11T05:56:27Z beach: Then you are in a Boolean context, and this should not happen.
2015-06-11T05:57:13Z beach: Or else, the CONSP-AST is incorrectly not defined to be Boolean.  That's a possibility.
2015-06-11T05:58:18Z beach: That's it.  I'll fix it.
2015-06-11T05:58:37Z drmeister: Hmmm. I'm on my phone at the moment so I'll check that tomorrow - thanks.
2015-06-11T05:58:51Z drmeister: Ok - great!
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2015-06-11T05:59:38Z drmeister: I'll stop bugging you now 😊 thanks so much for your time.
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2015-06-11T06:06:01Z CondomsOptional: hi fags 0\
2015-06-11T06:06:07Z CondomsOptional: 0\
2015-06-11T06:06:17Z CondomsOptional: why isn't the backslash showing?
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2015-06-11T06:06:48Z CondomsOptional does the gesture where you break your wrist like a flamebouyant homo
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2015-06-11T06:21:49Z PuercoPop: jasom: thanks!
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2015-06-11T07:03:40Z copycat: has anybody tried racket?
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2015-06-11T07:04:20Z copycat: i've been using it for a small project, and i'm about to finish it
2015-06-11T07:04:57Z pjb`: Ask on #scheme about racket.
2015-06-11T07:05:09Z pjb`: #lisp is about Common Lisp.
2015-06-11T07:05:25Z copycat: yeah, but i've been thinking about learning CL now
2015-06-11T07:05:47Z pjb`: Have a look at http://cliki.net/Getting+Started  http://cliki.net/Online+Tutorial
2015-06-11T07:06:04Z copycat: racket was easy for me to get started with, when i was totally new to programming (ignorant of OSes, command line, IDEs, frameworks)
2015-06-11T07:06:15Z copycat: is there something newbie friendly for CL?
2015-06-11T07:06:23Z pjb`: No.
2015-06-11T07:07:05Z pjb`: But since you've learned scheme with racket, you're not a pure newbie anymore.
2015-06-11T07:07:38Z pjb`: minion: tell copycat about pcl
2015-06-11T07:07:39Z minion: copycat: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
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2015-06-11T07:11:43Z loz: slime with inspector is very helpful
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2015-06-11T08:42:09Z loz: greetings
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2015-06-11T08:43:31Z loz: is there any constant size stack/lifo realization around?
2015-06-11T08:43:59Z Quadrescence: loz, what happens if you push onto a stack of maximal size
2015-06-11T08:44:23Z loz: Quadrescence: the earliest element disappears
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2015-06-11T08:44:47Z Quadrescence: no there is not a common implementation that i know of but that is 4 lines of code
2015-06-11T08:45:20Z loz: exactly 4 ?)
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2015-06-11T08:45:45Z loz: i would like to see it, if you don't mind
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2015-06-11T08:53:45Z loz: cause i'm making a structure with list and size now
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2015-06-11T09:03:00Z Quadrescence: loz, http://codepad.org/TSAs8I7M
2015-06-11T09:03:35Z loz: :D
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2015-06-11T09:04:37Z ggole: Nice use of prog1 there
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2015-06-11T09:20:06Z Shinmera: Here's one that doesn't need a struct. http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/AL#
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2015-06-11T09:23:22Z loz: Shinmera: i forgot about verctor-push, thanks!
2015-06-11T09:23:55Z Shinmera: Note that the above implementation will destroy data if you pop too much.
2015-06-11T09:24:06Z Shinmera: Actually no it won't
2015-06-11T09:24:17Z Shinmera: Ech, I'm still tired.
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2015-06-11T10:28:09Z loz: is there format directive for current argument index in format?
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2015-06-11T10:28:55Z pjb`: Yes.
2015-06-11T10:28:59Z pjb`: I wrote that two weeks ago.
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2015-06-11T10:29:40Z loz: pjb`: could you remind me please?
2015-06-11T10:30:06Z loz: em, have wrote your own?)
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2015-06-11T10:33:08Z pjb`: I'll have to since google cannot seem to find it :-(
2015-06-11T10:33:48Z pjb`: loz: http://paste.lisp.org/display/149587
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2015-06-11T10:52:44Z attila_lendvai: is there a way to :force t a program-op in asdf so that the forcing is not delegated to the load-op?
2015-06-11T10:53:13Z attila_lendvai: I want to force it to overwrite the executable file, but not recompile everything
2015-06-11T10:55:50Z attila_lendvai shamefully resorts to delete the file from the shell part of his build script
2015-06-11T10:58:08Z Shinmera: attila_lendvai: Not that I know of, but you can add a method in your .asd to do it for you.
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2015-06-11T11:00:39Z Shinmera: attila_lendvai: Something like (defmethod asdf:perform :before ((op asdf:program-op) (sys (eql (asdf:find-system :my-system)))) (uiop:delete-file-if-exists (asdf:output-file op sys)))
2015-06-11T11:01:52Z attila_lendvai: Shinmera: thanks!
2015-06-11T11:02:33Z Shinmera: Actually, that won't work.
2015-06-11T11:03:53Z loz: pjb`: cool)
2015-06-11T11:05:21Z Shinmera: attila_lendvai: This will work for sure: (defmethod asdf/plan:traverse-action :before (plan (op asdf:program-op) (sys (eql (asdf:find-system :system))) niip) (uiop:delete-file-if-exists (asdf:output-file op sys)))
2015-06-11T11:05:29Z Shinmera: But I don't know if it's the best way to do it.
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2015-06-11T11:41:18Z pjb`: loz: custom formatters are certainly wastly underutilized CL feature.
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2015-06-11T11:43:40Z loz: pjb: even standard format features are very powerful comparing to other languages
2015-06-11T11:44:25Z pjb: Yes. It should suffice a reason to switch over C programmers, comparing printf and CL:FORMAT :-)
2015-06-11T11:44:46Z Shinmera: FORMAT was adapted from Fortran back in the day, wasn't it?
2015-06-11T11:44:55Z p_l: they are too stuck in malloc() fantasies often if it printf vs. format would be enough to sway them
2015-06-11T11:45:03Z pjb: fortran format is much more rudimentary.
2015-06-11T11:45:10Z Shinmera: Sure.
2015-06-11T11:45:16Z pjb: the FORMAT name comes from fortran, indeed.
2015-06-11T11:45:37Z pjb: Fortran FORMAT: http://www.cs.mtu.edu/~shene/COURSES/cs201/NOTES/chap05/format.html
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2015-06-11T11:55:20Z splittist: My current suspicion is that much of FORMAT comes from the ioa_ subroutine on Multics. (But, yes, Fortran had formatting even before there was a Fortran compiler.)
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2015-06-11T12:19:20Z drmeister: beach: Thanks for those changes
2015-06-11T12:19:41Z drmeister: (clasp-cleavir::cleavir-compile 'consp '(lambda (x) (if (cleavir-primop:consp x) t nil)) :debug t) -->
2015-06-11T12:20:20Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/LX47BNY.png
2015-06-11T12:20:27Z drmeister: What are the green T and NIL ?
2015-06-11T12:20:51Z drmeister: (besides being T and NIL)
2015-06-11T12:21:09Z Shinmera: The return values?
2015-06-11T12:22:00Z drmeister: But I don't think they are my T and NIL values (tagged general pointers) I think they are some sort of immediate value 1 and 0 ?
2015-06-11T12:22:33Z Shinmera: I frankly don't have any idea what the graph does, so my guesses are wild at best.
2015-06-11T12:22:46Z angus: red arrows look like assignment
2015-06-11T12:22:59Z angus: and black arrows look like control flow
2015-06-11T12:23:00Z Shinmera: The only thing I know is that consp have to "get" the NIL and T from somewhere in order to return them.
2015-06-11T12:23:01Z angus: no?
2015-06-11T12:23:07Z Shinmera: *has
2015-06-11T12:23:12Z pjb: loz: I added a feature http://paste.lisp.org/+37F7/1
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2015-06-11T12:25:32Z tmtwd: I get this error when loading a file: ; Evaluation aborted on #<SYSTEM::SIMPLE-FILE-ERROR #x00033450BAA0>.
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2015-06-11T12:26:04Z Xach: tmtwd: usually the previous output gives more of a hint about what's going wrong.
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2015-06-11T12:26:23Z tmtwd: LOAD: A file with name #1=test.lisp does not exist
2015-06-11T12:26:23Z tmtwd:    [Condition of type SYSTEM::SIMPLE-FILE-ERROR]
2015-06-11T12:26:58Z tmtwd: I think emacs is in the wrong folder? how do I navigate so slime is in a certain folder?
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2015-06-11T12:28:44Z loz: tmtwd: ,
2015-06-11T12:28:47Z loz: cd
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2015-06-11T12:30:23Z tmtwd: I don't think emacs has cd
2015-06-11T12:30:37Z pjb: M-x set-default-directory RET
2015-06-11T12:30:41Z loz: not emacs, slime has
2015-06-11T12:30:45Z pjb: in pjb-emacs.el
2015-06-11T12:30:47Z loz: just type ,
2015-06-11T12:32:04Z loz have read slime manual, can give smart advices now
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2015-06-11T12:33:27Z Xach: tmtwd: Do you have test.lisp open as a buffer?
2015-06-11T12:33:49Z tmtwd: yes...
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2015-06-11T12:34:00Z tmtwd: emacs is stuck in some random directory
2015-06-11T12:34:11Z tmtwd: cuz I was using it earlier with haskell
2015-06-11T12:34:13Z pjb: tmtwd: this is so wrong.
2015-06-11T12:34:20Z Xach: tmtwd: One easy way to load the file is to visit the buffer and use C-c C-l
2015-06-11T12:34:27Z pjb: a process cannot be stuck in a directory.
2015-06-11T12:34:38Z tmtwd: cool
2015-06-11T12:34:41Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
2015-06-11T12:34:42Z loz: slime process has its own directory
2015-06-11T12:34:43Z tmtwd: I have it working now
2015-06-11T12:34:44Z Xach: tmtwd: One way to set the CL default pathname defaults to the directory of the current buffer is C-c ~
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2015-06-11T12:34:57Z mood: On a related note, does anyone else have problems with ,cd and Helm?
2015-06-11T12:34:59Z Xach: That will also change the repl package to the package of the current file.
2015-06-11T12:35:00Z beach: drmeister: Sometime you should try something like "git grep green".
2015-06-11T12:35:05Z Xach: mood: What is helm?
2015-06-11T12:35:21Z loz: helm is kind of emacs-starter-kit
2015-06-11T12:35:31Z beach: drmeister: They are constant inputs.
2015-06-11T12:35:31Z mood: Xach: Emacs incremental completion and selection narrowing framework: https://github.com/emacs-helm/helm
2015-06-11T12:35:46Z beach: If they haven't been hoisted away, there is something wrong.
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2015-06-11T12:36:27Z mood: When I use ,cd and then C-x C-f it won't start in the selected directory, but one directory up with the directory name alread filled in
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2015-06-11T12:36:51Z mood: I then first have to enter the directory before I can start searching for files in it
2015-06-11T12:37:12Z loz: mood: shouldn't ,cd change directory of lisp image process?
2015-06-11T12:37:26Z mood: Yes, but it takes the REPL with it
2015-06-11T12:38:13Z pjb: loz: nope.
2015-06-11T12:38:24Z pjb: it only change the *default-pathname-defaults*.
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2015-06-11T12:41:42Z Xach: pjb: nope. on clisp it sets (ext:default-directory). on sbcl it uses sb-posix:chdir.
2015-06-11T12:41:59Z Xach: In addition to setting *default-pathname-defaults*.
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2015-06-11T12:43:08Z pjb: Xach: I only see (setf *default-pathname-defaults* (truename (merge-pathnames directory))) in set-default-directory.
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2015-06-11T12:43:48Z pjb: definterface expands to a defun, not a defgeneric, so I fail to see how it could do something else.
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2015-06-11T12:44:15Z Xach: pjb: look at defimplementation forms in sbcl.lisp, etc.
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2015-06-11T12:45:00Z Xach: pjb: also observe the results of e.g. (ext:default-directory) before and after ,cd
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2015-06-11T12:45:34Z pjb: Xach: there's an incoherence between M-. and what function is active then.
2015-06-11T12:46:02Z Xach: pjb: it must be comforting to have something to blame
2015-06-11T12:46:30Z pjb: Don't be silly. I'm a programmer, I detect bugs in my sleep!
2015-06-11T12:47:02Z Xach: It's not just your sleep that's buggy
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2015-06-11T12:58:38Z drmeister: beach: So they should just be hoisted to T and NIL?
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2015-06-11T13:00:19Z beach: ?
2015-06-11T13:00:43Z beach: The are T and NIL, but after hoisting, they should become LOAD-TIME-VALUEs.
2015-06-11T13:01:09Z beach: ... and the inputs should be replaced by LEXICAL-LOCATIONs.
2015-06-11T13:01:15Z beach: Nothing has changed.
2015-06-11T13:01:27Z beach: This happens when you give constant strings.
2015-06-11T13:01:41Z beach: And it happened to numbers before you turned them into immediates.
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2015-06-11T13:06:16Z beach: drmeister: I have the feeling my explanation is not adequate.
2015-06-11T13:07:25Z drmeister: Right, it looks like hoisting is not working for those two values.  I'll have to investigate.
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2015-06-11T13:08:08Z beach: drmeister: Rather, they are not turned into LOAD-TIME-VALUE-ASTs it seems.
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2015-06-11T13:13:19Z beach: drmeister: Is VARIABLE-INFO called with T and NIL as arguments, and if so, what does your system reply?
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2015-06-11T13:13:41Z drmeister: Good question, let me check
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2015-06-11T13:14:26Z beach: drmeister: It should reply CONSTANT-VARIABLE-INFO.
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2015-06-11T13:16:57Z drmeister: I'll trace cleavir-env:variable-info  for that little example.
2015-06-11T13:17:43Z beach: What does your system say when you call (constantp t) and (constantp nil)?
2015-06-11T13:18:55Z pjb: (constantp 't) and (constantp 'nil) would be more correct.
2015-06-11T13:19:26Z beach: Right.
2015-06-11T13:20:22Z drmeister: (constantp 't) --> nil (oops)    (constantp 'nil) --> t
2015-06-11T13:20:58Z drmeister: Here's what I get when I trace
2015-06-11T13:21:00Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/WTdKbEjN/
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2015-06-11T13:21:10Z dlowe: veritas aeterna
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2015-06-11T13:22:22Z drmeister: So it doesn't seem to be called on NIL and since (constantp 't) is nil that probably explains why it is returning the wrong info.
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2015-06-11T13:23:52Z beach: drmeister: In all of Generate-AST, nothing creates a CONSTANT-AST anymore.
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2015-06-11T13:24:34Z beach: drmeister: It must be that you create one in your code somewhere, or that you are using a very, very old version of Cleavir.
2015-06-11T13:24:55Z beach: drmeister: In fact, I should remove the CONSTANT-AST entirely now.
2015-06-11T13:25:02Z drmeister: I just pulled the latest version of sicl an hour ago.
2015-06-11T13:25:07Z drmeister: I'll check for constant-ast
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2015-06-11T13:25:37Z drmeister: There is no mention of constant-ast in my code.
2015-06-11T13:25:48Z beach: Constants get turned into either immediates or LOAD-TIME-VALUE-ASTs.
2015-06-11T13:25:55Z drmeister: Understood.
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2015-06-11T13:26:23Z drmeister: Investigating
2015-06-11T13:26:30Z beach: drmeister: Could you give us the AST that generate this HIR?
2015-06-11T13:26:39Z drmeister: I'm regenerating it now.
2015-06-11T13:27:02Z drmeister: It will be just a moment.
2015-06-11T13:27:37Z drmeister: It takes about 60 seconds to get back to that point.
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2015-06-11T13:28:11Z drmeister: Ok, (constantp 't) --> true
2015-06-11T13:28:53Z drmeister: AST: http://i.imgur.com/wRUe021.png
2015-06-11T13:29:17Z drmeister: MIR: http://i.imgur.com/uc9HSjD.png
2015-06-11T13:29:30Z drmeister: Code: (clasp-cleavir::cleavir-compile 'consp '(lambda (x) (if (cleavir-primop:consp x) t nil)) :debug t)
2015-06-11T13:30:21Z beach: drmeister: There is something in there that I have no responsibility for, namely precalc-val-ref.
2015-06-11T13:30:40Z beach: So I don't know what happens to those when you turn them into HIR.
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2015-06-11T13:31:41Z beach: It appears that some code other than that of Cleavir turns those into CONSTANT-INPUTs.
2015-06-11T13:32:44Z drmeister: Yes, those are mine and they are in the HIR and they compile to array lookups.
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2015-06-11T13:33:37Z drmeister: Why the inputs for <-:34 and <-:17 aren't precalc-value-ref ; 'T and precalc-value-ref ; 'NIL I don't understand.
2015-06-11T13:33:59Z drmeister: I'll investigate and get back to you.
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2015-06-11T13:34:05Z beach: OK.
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2015-06-11T13:34:47Z drmeister: Where are the T and NIL for the CONSP-AST in the AST supposed to be represented?
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2015-06-11T13:35:23Z loz: are you making these graphs from actual code?
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2015-06-11T13:35:41Z drmeister: Because they are there as children(2,3) of IF and child#2 of EQ
2015-06-11T13:35:50Z drmeister: loz: Yes.
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2015-06-11T13:36:23Z beach: drmeister: What are the instructions <-:34 and <-:17?
2015-06-11T13:36:38Z loz: drmeister: could you give me some tags to google about this?
2015-06-11T13:36:39Z drmeister: They are assignment instructions.
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2015-06-11T13:37:01Z drmeister: loz: This is within SICL and Clasp
2015-06-11T13:37:10Z drmeister: beach wrote it.
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2015-06-11T13:37:39Z drmeister: Here - I'll generate the AST before hoisting
2015-06-11T13:38:08Z drmeister: Before those precalc values get in there.
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2015-06-11T13:38:37Z loz: drmeister: SICL is implementation, what about this graph generation tool?
2015-06-11T13:38:43Z drmeister: graphviz
2015-06-11T13:39:25Z beach: drmeister: There are no NIL and T in the CONSP-AST.
2015-06-11T13:39:28Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/V4hH3vG.png
2015-06-11T13:39:42Z loz: can it just take lisp sources and produce images?
2015-06-11T13:39:49Z drmeister: loz: No.
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2015-06-11T13:40:47Z drmeister: beach: It looks like the consp-ast generates HIR that assigns T to a result or NIL to a result based on whether CONSP is true or not.  Where does it represent that T or NIL that gets assigned?
2015-06-11T13:41:37Z beach: drmeister: If so that is wrong.  The CONSP-AST should be compiled in a context with 2 successors, and no NIL and T should be generated.
2015-06-11T13:42:07Z drmeister: Here, check this out:   (clasp-cleavir::cleavir-compile 'consp '(lambda (x) (if (cleavir-primop:consp x) 1 0)) :debug t)
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2015-06-11T13:42:31Z drmeister: I have the IF return 1 or 0
2015-06-11T13:42:32Z drmeister: Here's the hoisted AST
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2015-06-11T13:42:58Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/MJw4EjW.png
2015-06-11T13:43:04Z drmeister: There is no reference to T anywhere
2015-06-11T13:43:18Z beach: Ah, the AST is wrong.
2015-06-11T13:43:22Z beach: Now I see it.
2015-06-11T13:43:35Z drmeister: Here's the MIR http://i.imgur.com/7dX7KsQ.png
2015-06-11T13:43:40Z drmeister: Ok, good, you see it.
2015-06-11T13:43:49Z beach: The CONSP-AST should be immediately under the IF.
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2015-06-11T13:44:31Z drmeister: Right, in this case it is stark.  There is no T value anywhere in the AST so there is nothing to hoist. Then it's a mystery to me where it comes from in the HIR/MIR
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2015-06-11T13:44:49Z beach: The CONSP-AST can only appear as the conditional of an IF.
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2015-06-11T13:45:01Z beach: Oh that I can explain.
2015-06-11T13:45:17Z beach: It is old code that should be removed.
2015-06-11T13:45:47Z beach: When a BOOLEAN-AST is compiled in a context with a single successor, it used to be OK to add T and NIL as constant inputs.
2015-06-11T13:45:54Z beach: Now it should be an error.
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2015-06-11T13:47:00Z beach: Now, why is (CONSP x) turned into (EQ (CONSP x) T) or something like that.
2015-06-11T13:47:17Z beach: (EQ (CONSP x) NIL)
2015-06-11T13:47:54Z drmeister: Right, that looks like it's redundant
2015-06-11T13:48:01Z beach: It is wrong.
2015-06-11T13:48:17Z beach: Because the CONSP-AST can not appear as the argument of EQ.
2015-06-11T13:48:26Z beach: Only in the conditional branch of an IF-AST.
2015-06-11T13:49:28Z drmeister: Ok
2015-06-11T13:49:57Z beach: The cleavir-primop:consp gets turned into CONSP-AST directly.
2015-06-11T13:50:04Z beach: So where does that EQ come from?
2015-06-11T13:50:34Z beach: It must be from the IF-converter.
2015-06-11T13:50:55Z drmeister: No idea. I'm pretty sure it's not me. These are my first forays into consp
2015-06-11T13:51:15Z beach: Indeed, it is.
2015-06-11T13:51:39Z beach: I see what the problem is, but I don't have time to fix it now.
2015-06-11T13:51:44Z beach: I need to leave very soon.
2015-06-11T13:51:49Z drmeister: Ok
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2015-06-11T14:26:03Z spacebat: in lispworks there is clos:map-classes but I haven't found similar in sbcl
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2015-06-11T14:26:37Z Shinmera: What does that do?
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2015-06-11T14:28:12Z spacebat: iterates over all clos classes
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2015-06-11T14:28:53Z nyef: All of them, not just the ones associated with names?
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2015-06-11T14:29:15Z nyef: (That is, ones available via FIND-CLASS)
2015-06-11T14:29:20Z Shinmera: I'm trying to come up with a reason to need that, but I'm drawing a blank.
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2015-06-11T14:29:50Z spacebat: trying to understand a large code base
2015-06-11T14:30:14Z spacebat: map-classes calls the lambda with name and class
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2015-06-11T14:30:32Z Shinmera: Just map over the symbols in the code base's packages and call find class on each?
2015-06-11T14:30:40Z aerique_: I'm not sure where I should go with a patch for linedit.  https://github.com/nikodemus/linedit looks enticing, but there's also still the common-lisp.net page
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2015-06-11T14:30:59Z spacebat: probably the next best thing Shinmera
2015-06-11T14:30:59Z Shinmera: Going over /all classes ever/ seems like completely overkill to me.
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2015-06-11T14:31:32Z Shinmera: *complete
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2015-06-11T14:31:46Z aerique_: oh wait, recent push at common-lisp.net git, I'll go there
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2015-06-11T14:33:53Z spacebat: I have a project that has different systems talking to the same database, objects are read from the db and constructed by the ORM
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2015-06-11T14:34:16Z spacebat: one server is quite lightweight and only has a few of the class definitions
2015-06-11T14:34:26Z spacebat: the other has them all
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2015-06-11T14:36:17Z spacebat: lightweight server starts up, looks at the db, if you query the wrong slot errors occur
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2015-06-11T14:36:45Z spacebat: so enumerating all classes in both servers I figured to get a better handle on the problem
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2015-06-11T14:40:24Z spacebat: because there are several places in the code where class lookup can fail and some I don't have the source for (non-negotiable proprietary implementation)
2015-06-11T14:40:54Z spacebat: find-class just gives a simple-error without useful restarts
2015-06-11T14:41:44Z spacebat: I'm hoping to hide any objects the lightweight server doesn't know about, but it probably isn't going to be pretty
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2015-06-11T15:06:55Z pjb: spacebat: so you're still not a programmer? http://paste.lisp.org/+37FC
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2015-06-11T17:35:55Z Baggers: Evening all
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2015-06-11T17:44:07Z jackdaniel: o/
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2015-06-11T17:44:37Z grees: hey guys i'm just starting to learn common lisp, what book / webpage would you recommend to get started?
2015-06-11T17:44:54Z _death: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2015-06-11T17:45:05Z jackdaniel: grees: Practical Common-Lisp, or ANSI Common-Lisp, both good as introductory material
2015-06-11T17:45:41Z p_l: grees: ↑ or Land of Lisp (especially for people less experienced in programming in general
2015-06-11T17:45:56Z grees: thanks ! anyone read "the land of lisp" ?
2015-06-11T17:46:11Z grees: ah thx^^
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2015-06-11T17:46:49Z pjb: grees: http://www.cliki.net/Getting+Started what else?
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2015-06-11T17:48:03Z pjb: grees: http://cliki.net/Online+Tutorial
2015-06-11T17:48:19Z grees: okay thats a lot of stuff to read ^^ hopefully i'll get it
2015-06-11T17:48:43Z Baggers: grees: Good luck!
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2015-06-11T17:48:52Z jackdaniel: and have fun (:
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2015-06-11T17:48:57Z cheryllium: I'm working through land of lisp, it's a lot of fun
2015-06-11T17:49:15Z Baggers: cheryllium: That is what got me going, great book!
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2015-06-11T19:19:24Z nyef: What the... CLIM allows for a medium (which is port-affine) to be grafted to a sheet that is not mirrored (which is to say, neither directly nor indirectly mirrored, therefore not grafted).
2015-06-11T19:19:42Z nyef: ... and the only way that this makes sense is with a "pixmap medium".
2015-06-11T19:19:53Z nyef: How very carefully dreadful.
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2015-06-11T19:20:26Z nyef: Except that the PORT generic function is only defined for mediums if they're associated with a mirrored sheet, yet mediums are still port-affine.
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2015-06-11T19:21:33Z loz1: is it possible to return value from hanbler-bind for a signal form?
2015-06-11T19:21:41Z loz1: handler-bind*
2015-06-11T19:22:23Z nyef: loz1: You want to HANDLER-BIND, and have one of the handlers, if triggered, cause a return from the HANDLER-BIND form with values?
2015-06-11T19:22:31Z nyef: (with given values?)
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2015-06-11T19:23:36Z loz1: nyef: for example : (format t "~a" (signal 'my-condition)) to print the value calculated by my-condition handler
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2015-06-11T19:24:04Z nyef: Oh. Umm... That seems fantastically unlikely.
2015-06-11T19:24:37Z loz1: why? if signal just calls function saved in some special variable
2015-06-11T19:24:45Z nyef: clhs signal
2015-06-11T19:24:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_signal.htm
2015-06-11T19:24:55Z nyef: "If the condition is not handled, signal returns nil."
2015-06-11T19:25:13Z loz1: and if its handled?)
2015-06-11T19:25:52Z nyef: Then, by definition of "handling" a condition, a non-local control transfer was initiated to somewhere outside the invocation of SIGNAL.
2015-06-11T19:26:04Z Bike: signal also returns nil if it's handled.
2015-06-11T19:26:19Z nyef: You might try involving a CATCH around the call to SIGNAL and then THROW to that CATCH.
2015-06-11T19:26:27Z Bike: well, no. i mean, if the signal is handled signal doesn't return.
2015-06-11T19:26:35Z nyef: Bike: By definition of "handling" a condition... Yeah, exactly.
2015-06-11T19:26:53Z emaczen: I've never used read-tables before but I think that is what I need to replace occurrences of "send" with "funcall." I would like "send" to be replaced whenever you depend on a particular package
2015-06-11T19:27:00Z nyef: SIGNAL returns with it's NIL, or on it.
2015-06-11T19:27:09Z Bike: emaczen: this sounds pretty ugly already.
2015-06-11T19:27:11Z loz1: Bike: why? handler can decide not to change control flow
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2015-06-11T19:27:29Z Bike: loz1: then the handler doesn't "handle" the condition by the definition of what that means
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2015-06-11T19:27:44Z nyef: loz1: By the definition of "handle" for conditions, if a handler does not change the control flow, it declines to handle the condition.
2015-06-11T19:27:55Z loz1: hm
2015-06-11T19:27:58Z Bike: clhs 9.1
2015-06-11T19:27:59Z specbot: Condition System Concepts: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/09_a.htm
2015-06-11T19:28:00Z Bike: has the defs
2015-06-11T19:28:07Z loz1: why can't signal use its return value then?
2015-06-11T19:28:15Z emaczen: Bike: I briefly talked about this before, but I created my own message passing object system implemented with closures.
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2015-06-11T19:28:32Z nyef: Because the handler is not called for its value, it is called for its side-effects.
2015-06-11T19:28:44Z emaczen: Bike: The current syntax to use an object is: (funcall object message ...)
2015-06-11T19:28:56Z Bike: sure
2015-06-11T19:29:02Z emaczen: How else could I replace send with funcall?
2015-06-11T19:29:09Z Bike: can you not just do (defun send (&rest as) (apply #'funcall as))
2015-06-11T19:29:32Z loz1: emaczen: M-x M-%
2015-06-11T19:29:34Z loz1: :)
2015-06-11T19:29:55Z emaczen: loz1?
2015-06-11T19:30:04Z emaczen: Bike: I think that makes sense.
2015-06-11T19:30:08Z emaczen: I'll try it out
2015-06-11T19:30:20Z emaczen: Bike: Where do read-tables come up then?
2015-06-11T19:30:29Z Bike: they don't, for this
2015-06-11T19:30:44Z Bike: you don't actually need to change parsing at all just to make something like funcall (thankfully) (that would suck)
2015-06-11T19:30:46Z emaczen: Yeah I mean in general, when would you need to use a read-table?
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2015-06-11T19:31:01Z emaczen: Adding syntax?
2015-06-11T19:31:05Z emaczen: I guess then.
2015-06-11T19:31:14Z dlowe: I have a templating system that does nothing but use a read-table
2015-06-11T19:31:30Z loz1: html templating?
2015-06-11T19:31:35Z dlowe: generic templating
2015-06-11T19:31:43Z loz1: what is it
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2015-06-11T19:31:55Z emaczen: dlowe: So this is your own special syntax?
2015-06-11T19:32:09Z dlowe: I haven't used it in a while.. lemme dig it up...
2015-06-11T19:32:20Z dlowe: http://dlowe.net/code/btl.html
2015-06-11T19:34:30Z dlowe: man, my old website is painful to look it. Really need a refresh someday.
2015-06-11T19:35:53Z dlowe: I could probably do a much better job on btl now
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2015-06-11T19:36:49Z Xach: debian 1st
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2015-06-11T19:38:33Z emaczen: Whenever I see cool lisp stuff, I'm always very surprised that languages like python became more popular...
2015-06-11T19:39:02Z tmtwd: What's the advantage of (apply #'append '((mary had) (a) (little lamb))) vs (append '(mary had) '(a) '(little lamb))
2015-06-11T19:39:03Z tmtwd: ?
2015-06-11T19:40:56Z Bike: nothing comes to mind
2015-06-11T19:41:07Z dlowe: Xach: I have a PPA opened as of this morning.
2015-06-11T19:41:16Z Xach: frabjous day!
2015-06-11T19:41:43Z dlowe: and I was poking at the debian sbcl package for streamlining before I ran out of tmie.
2015-06-11T19:41:47Z Xach: tmtwd: sometimes things like that are done for didactic purposes.
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2015-06-11T19:42:11Z tmtwd: I see
2015-06-11T19:42:16Z dlowe: tmtwd: as written, there's no advantage.
2015-06-11T19:42:35Z tmtwd: what is the point of apply then?
2015-06-11T19:42:43Z dlowe: you don't always pass constants into apply
2015-06-11T19:42:56Z Xach: tmtwd: you can call a function with a list as though it was called with the elements of that list as arguments.
2015-06-11T19:43:01Z Xach: separate arguments.
2015-06-11T19:43:10Z skrue: dont know if there's a better channel for this, so here goes: does anyone here have a clue if the byte offset for the xreftable in the trailer of a pdf document require teh whole document to be decoded before finding it? spec says "byte offset for the xreftable in the decoded stream" -- what does 'decoded stream' mean?
2015-06-11T19:43:51Z Xach: skrue: i suspect it means after applying any transformations, like uncompressing. but this is a very bad channel to discuss such a thing.
2015-06-11T19:44:58Z skrue: aye
2015-06-11T19:46:33Z tmtwd: what is the form of #'append?
2015-06-11T19:46:40Z tmtwd: like an anonymous function or something?
2015-06-11T19:48:14Z Xach: tmtwd: #' is reader syntax for (FUNCTION APPEND). When evaluated, it returns the function named by APPEND. That might be a global function (e.g. defined with defun) or local (defined with FLET or LABELS).
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2015-06-11T19:55:16Z akkad: ,clhs newbignum
2015-06-11T19:55:23Z akkad: clhs newbignum
2015-06-11T19:55:23Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for newbignum.
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2015-06-11T19:56:22Z akkad: clhs bignum
2015-06-11T19:56:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_bignum.htm
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2015-06-11T19:57:19Z Xach: new bignum?
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2015-06-11T20:00:56Z akkad: yeah I saw it on http://franz.com/support/documentation/current/doc/runtime-analyzer.htm and was wondering if it was standard.
2015-06-11T20:01:35Z Xach: that is a franz-specific feature
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2015-06-11T20:04:49Z Bike: i would guess it's the internal name for the function that allocates bignums. like %make-bignum on some implementations, probably.
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2015-06-11T20:12:41Z tmtwd: say I've done (load "test.lisp)
2015-06-11T20:12:56Z Xach: hopefully with another " in there
2015-06-11T20:12:57Z tmtwd: , is there a command like (load) that just reloads the current file
2015-06-11T20:13:02Z tmtwd: yes ;)
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2015-06-11T20:13:17Z Xach: tmtwd: current being the last file you loaded?
2015-06-11T20:13:23Z tmtwd: Xach, yes
2015-06-11T20:13:37Z tmtwd: so I don't have to type (load "test.lisp") again
2015-06-11T20:13:39Z Xach: tmtwd: no. but people add tools like that to their repl all the time. rob warnock has a nice post about it.
2015-06-11T20:13:51Z Xach: tmtwd: with slime, you would usually use C-c C-l while visiting the file.
2015-06-11T20:13:55Z Xach digs up a link to rob's post
2015-06-11T20:14:52Z Xach: tmtwd: http://xach.com/rpw3/articles/BJqdnd9R65ee3qDbnZ2dnUVZ_vGinZ2d%40speakeasy.net.html describes one setup for repl convenience
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2015-06-11T20:16:30Z tmtwd: cool, im bookmarking it
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2015-06-11T20:38:30Z jasom: tmtwd: note that there is often a good reason to compile before loading; for example, on sbcl compilation may catch some errors, and prevent you from partially loading the file.
2015-06-11T20:38:58Z tmtwd: oh, I didn't realize we could compile lisp files
2015-06-11T20:39:15Z jasom: clhs compile-file
2015-06-11T20:39:15Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cmp_fi.htm
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2015-06-11T20:40:16Z jasom: tmtwd: once you get more familiar with lisp, I recommend learning the basics of ASDF; that lets you specify a system of lisp files, along with dependencies, and it will do things like automatically compile out-of-date files for you.
2015-06-11T20:40:42Z jasom: tmtwd: but put that on the back of your "things to do while learning lisp" it's a convenience once you are making larger projects, but is not needed now.
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2015-06-11T20:41:25Z tmtwd: oh like ant or something?
2015-06-11T20:41:30Z jasom: tmtwd: yeah
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2015-06-11T20:41:39Z tmtwd: or lein
2015-06-11T20:42:02Z jasom: closer to ant than lein
2015-06-11T20:42:13Z jasom: quicklisp provides some more of what lein does, and is built on top of ASDF
2015-06-11T20:42:52Z tmtwd: huh
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2015-06-11T20:44:03Z jasom: but lein is such a swiss-army-knife that there really isn't one thing in lisp that corresponds to it
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2015-06-11T20:46:49Z akkad: is Edi's new book LW centric?
2015-06-11T20:46:49Z akkad:  
2015-06-11T20:46:55Z Xach: akkad: no
2015-06-11T20:47:03Z jasom: edi has a new book?
2015-06-11T20:47:15Z Xach: Edi is writing a book to be published at the end of the year
2015-06-11T20:47:32Z akkad: lots of questions on the lw list
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2015-06-11T20:58:07Z nyef: Hunh. I just found out what the +EVERYWHERE+ region is for. Damnit.
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2015-06-11T20:59:11Z nyef: Yeah, damnit is right. Means I have to substantially increase the scope of my geometry setup. /-:
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2015-06-11T21:02:12Z Xach: akkad: he is primarily a lispworks user
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2015-06-11T21:07:51Z k-stz: tmtwd: go ahead and learn lisp together with slime, it only benefits the learning experience
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2015-06-11T21:13:21Z jasom: I started out with clisp and vim, then moved to sbcl+slime for the REPL and debugger, but still used vim for editing lisp files.
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2015-06-11T21:25:08Z tmtwd: edi weitz?
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2015-06-11T21:25:56Z jasom: sbcl's REPL is quite primitive, and something like rlwrap or linedit only makes it marginally better.  SLIME is really the good way to interact with sbcl (and the REPL is even optional, as you can have it execute any from from a file you have open in the editor.
2015-06-11T21:26:39Z tmtwd: yeah, I feel the same way
2015-06-11T21:26:53Z Xach: tmtwd: edi weitz has written a bunch of useful common lisp software.
2015-06-11T21:26:58Z Xach: and now is writing a book
2015-06-11T21:27:10Z tmtwd: I don't think emacs is necessarily the best editor, but it supports lisp, clojure etc all equally well
2015-06-11T21:27:21Z tmtwd: so once you know one, you know  a bunch
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2015-06-11T21:28:05Z jasom: There's an old joke that emacs is a great OS that lacks only a good editor... I personally find evil-mode to be that editor.
2015-06-11T21:28:27Z tmtwd: I've tried evil mode
2015-06-11T21:28:51Z tmtwd: I didn't like it, it wasn't snappy like vim
2015-06-11T21:29:10Z jasom: I've been using some form of vi since the early 90s, so it makes it easier for me.
2015-06-11T21:29:58Z jasom: tmtwd: really?  I had to make a few changes to get it to work well in a terminal, but I haven't had issues with responsiveness in the GUI at all, or in the terminal since I fixed the whole meta/escape ambiguity
2015-06-11T21:30:33Z tmtwd: hm, but doesn't it clash occasionally with some emacs key bindings?
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2015-06-11T21:31:29Z jasom: it hasn't for me so far; emacs key bindings are avalable in insert mode, but not in normal mode
2015-06-11T21:31:55Z jasom: I added M-. to normal mode, since I hardly ever used that vim key-combo
2015-06-11T21:32:13Z jasom: I could just have easily mapped C-] to that instead
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2015-06-11T21:35:14Z jasom: EMACS's syntax highlighting seems to be a lot slower than vim, but vim freezes while it's rehighlighting while emacs seems to let you edit, just with the highlighting wrong.
2015-06-11T21:35:46Z jasom: (ever accidentally open up a multi-MB XML file in vim with syntax highlighting on?  It's ... unpleasant)
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2015-06-11T21:53:33Z fourier: tmtwd: install Clozure CL (it contains an editor) if you are on OSX and forget about Emacs for a while. Emacs is a beast on its own. Better to learn one thing at once
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2015-06-11T22:00:34Z Xach: clozure's ide is like emacs in some respects.
2015-06-11T22:00:53Z Xach: it's based on hemlock, which is an emacs written in CL.
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2015-06-11T22:02:58Z fourier: Xach the only difference is that GNU Emacs is so advanced now and with so many packages so popular hemlock-based editors (I mean CCL Hemlock and LispWorks Editor) feels and behaves like Emacs of 90-s.
2015-06-11T22:03:15Z Xach: fourier: that is not the only difference.
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2015-06-11T22:07:45Z fourier: Xach: which are important from the user's point of view?
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2015-06-11T22:10:27Z Shinmera contributes another data point to Xach's wish of increased bloggery with a piece on Qtools. https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/322
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2015-06-11T22:13:39Z fourier: Shinmera: just curious, why did you start to use CL wrapper around Qt instead of separating the Qt-based interface and CL-based logic/implementation?
2015-06-11T22:14:15Z Shinmera: fourier: I'm not sure what you're suggesting
2015-06-11T22:14:23Z Shinmera: Writing the GUI in C++?
2015-06-11T22:14:26Z nyef: What, and deal with C++ any more than the bare minimum absolutely necessary?
2015-06-11T22:16:21Z Shinmera: Dealing with smoke alone is already more than sufficiently painful.
2015-06-11T22:16:51Z fourier: In this case it looks ok, Qt has an excellent tooling to make it painless (if you follow the rules of course), and the approach (clean separation between the UI and the logic) generally makes it easier to port to whatever UI platform you will choose in a future...
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2015-06-11T22:17:20Z nyef: Painless and C++ do not go together.
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2015-06-11T22:17:50Z Shinmera: fourier: My reasons are: 1) I don't know much about C++ 2) I don't want to change that.
2015-06-11T22:18:20Z jasom: 1) There are limits to how much you can separate between logic and GUI, 2) writing the GUI in CL doesn't preclude separating logic and UI
2015-06-11T22:18:32Z Shinmera: Or, in less witty words: I have no interest in learning more about C++. It doesn't seem to bring me much of a benefit.
2015-06-11T22:18:36Z fourier: nyef: why not. If you are using cleary specified subsets of the lang and understand them, what is the problem? C++ is big but you can for sure use the subset you are comfortable with
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2015-06-11T22:18:53Z nyef: Okay, I'll use the EMPTY subset.
2015-06-11T22:19:27Z Bike: writing in lisp is usually more comfortable than C++, for me. for instance, right now i am using an api and getting an error, which consists of a code number that means "invalid value", and no further information.
2015-06-11T22:19:37Z Shinmera: For an example of an application that has most of the "logic" and "gui" parts rather well separated, see Parasol :^)
2015-06-11T22:19:48Z Shinmera: (and it's all in CL)
2015-06-11T22:20:04Z fourier: Shinmera: :) I understand. But in the blog post you are complaining more about CL
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2015-06-11T22:20:24Z Shinmera: fourier: Well yes. But the solution is /more cl/ not less.
2015-06-11T22:20:32Z fourier: CL/Qt integration, than the Qt itself (which is obiviously not bad)
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2015-06-11T22:22:07Z fourier: Bike: yes it is, but here we are talking about particular applications - using C++-based library (with even a preprocessor to extend its syntax!) with all the tooling VS CL wrapper about all of these.
2015-06-11T22:22:28Z Shinmera: I'm not complaining about Qt in the blog post because I can't do anything about Qt. It's too big, and its faults are too strongly entrenched for me to have any chance at fixing it.
2015-06-11T22:22:39Z Shinmera: I /can/ and /will/ fix the issues on the CL side.
2015-06-11T22:23:18Z Bike: shinmera seems to be pretty adept at using qt from lisp
2015-06-11T22:24:26Z Shinmera: I don't know if I'm adept or just sufficiently grouchy to give the impression that I am.
2015-06-11T22:24:29Z jasom: The solution to a non-idiomatic lisp API isn't to not use lisp, it's to improve the API
2015-06-11T22:24:33Z fourier: And by the way for me personally CL's backtraces generally not significantly better (in best case they show you the name of the function and arguments and no particular source file lines/etc, because of the image-based nature of the language)
2015-06-11T22:25:00Z jasom: fourier: M-. on the backtrace and it jumps to the source usually
2015-06-11T22:25:07Z Shinmera: slime and dissect will be able to tell you source file and position in most cases.
2015-06-11T22:25:16Z Shinmera: jasom: Hitting 'v' is even more informative.
2015-06-11T22:25:46Z jasom: Shinmera: indeed
2015-06-11T22:26:04Z Bike: and the c++/moc/whatever preprocessor is pretty crap compared to an actual macro system
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2015-06-11T22:26:27Z jasom: the c preprocessor is crap compared to even a good preprocessor
2015-06-11T22:26:56Z fourier: all that only if you run from the Slime, but what to do if you are trying to debug an executable
2015-06-11T22:27:25Z Bike: i believe shinmera has tooling for that also.
2015-06-11T22:28:00Z jasom: fourier: slime makes it easy to find that information, but it's getting all that information from sbcl anyway, so it is there.
2015-06-11T22:28:00Z Shinmera: dissect, as I mentioned. Though I haven't tested source info hinting in image mode sufficiently yet.
2015-06-11T22:28:17Z jasom: big surprise though, it's easier to debug in a debugger than not in a debugger.
2015-06-11T22:28:57Z Shinmera adds "portable debugger" to his TODO
2015-06-11T22:29:00Z jasom: And in any event, the format of backtraces isn't specified by common lisp
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2015-06-11T22:31:09Z fourier: jasom: the point is what it is not so bad to debug any (debug) image made with C++ code, most of the time expecting it to behave exactly like the release one (with exception which could bite though, but not really often and definitely not in GUI-like projects in Qt)
2015-06-11T22:31:52Z jasom: fourier: if you attach with gcc, it's easier, just like if you attach with slime, it's easier for lisp
2015-06-11T22:31:58Z jasom: s/gcc/gdb
2015-06-11T22:32:25Z jasom: sbcl at least has a full featured debugger built into every image, that lets you inspect the call-stack to your hearts content
2015-06-11T22:32:35Z fourier: Bike: regarding to preprocessor - it is supported && does the job; you could replace it with boost::signal if you want so not a problem
2015-06-11T22:33:11Z fourier: jasom: how could you attach to a binary build without swank?
2015-06-11T22:33:27Z Shinmera: you LOAD swank. Easy.
2015-06-11T22:33:33Z jasom: fourier: load swank into the image from the sldb repl?
2015-06-11T22:33:45Z fourier: I see
2015-06-11T22:33:59Z Bike: you're saying, like, doing C++ would be mediocre. doing it in lisp would not be mediocre, and the price is you have to do some foreign function crap. seems like a simple enough tradeoff
2015-06-11T22:34:55Z fourier: Bike: no I'm not telling about foriegn functions, I'm thinking more about message passing like zmq or whatever IPC
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2015-06-11T22:35:35Z jasom: fourier: IPC for gui is a bad idea once you get past really simple GUIs (and I'm saying this having written most of my lisp GUIs using an IPC)
2015-06-11T22:36:39Z jasom: Want to manipulate image data for a photograph?  there are performance implications.  Want an animation programatically controlled by your logic side?  better have rare updates.
2015-06-11T22:36:42Z fourier: jasom: why so? can't you have some common storage(in-memory db or whatever) to avoid problems?
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2015-06-11T22:37:56Z Shinmera: Using FFI is already painfully slow for image data.
2015-06-11T22:39:02Z oGMo: jasom: eh, not if you have strong client-side support for that stuff
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2015-06-11T22:39:11Z fourier: Shinmera: you are telling that do the processing fully in CL is more performant than to wrap some structures and call the proper C/C++ lib to do the job?
2015-06-11T22:39:41Z Shinmera: fourier: No, I'm saying if you're doing anything more abstract than FFI (say, IPC) you're not going to manage it.
2015-06-11T22:39:48Z Shinmera: *more abstracted
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2015-06-11T22:40:36Z nyef: Mmm. FFI is bad enough. Add in a general IPC mechanism, and you start looking at losing an order of magnitude in efficiency quite quickly.
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2015-06-11T22:41:27Z fourier: but this should really matter on a huge amount of small operations, isn't it?
2015-06-11T22:41:40Z jasom: fourier: furthermore image manipulation is clearly logic, while displaying the image is UI, so "write your logic in lisp, write your UI in C++" means you'll have an image crossing whatever channel for communicating with the interface
2015-06-11T22:41:51Z Shinmera: Doing drawing is usually "a huge amount of small operations".
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2015-06-11T22:42:06Z Shinmera: Mostly though, any form of constant overhead is going to cost you dearly.
2015-06-11T22:42:28Z nyef: A huge amount of small operations is where it DOES matter. It's a latency cost more than a throughput cost.
2015-06-11T22:43:26Z jasom: fourier: all of my lisp GUI programs have used IPC, it was worht the tradeoff, since I was bascially just making a graphical frontend for manipulating a relatively small amount of lisp data, and Qtools didn't exist.
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2015-06-11T22:44:05Z jasom: fourier: but I am well aware of the limitations of that approach, since even with that I occasionally ran into it
2015-06-11T22:44:05Z fourier: Shinmera: I got a feeling what typical rendering loop is you are rendering something in background and then flip the buffer, arranging the timing depending on vsync. Animations, rendering DOM/SVG etc. What are the image manipulation you are talking about?
2015-06-11T22:44:25Z Shinmera: fourier: Drawing on the buffer still costs.
2015-06-11T22:44:40Z Shinmera: And you're usually going to be drawing through FFI calls
2015-06-11T22:44:43Z Shinmera: so, same problem.
2015-06-11T22:45:24Z fourier: Shinmera: it costs nothing if you do it in C/C++, so probably it is not a wise choice of the lang for these tasks?
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2015-06-11T22:45:47Z Shinmera: Well yeah if you don't have FFI you don't pay FFI overhead.
2015-06-11T22:45:55Z Shinmera: But this argument was against IPC as a viable model.
2015-06-11T22:45:57Z jasom: simple things like enforcing that the sum of several values controlled by several spinners didn't exceed a certain value needed extra attention just because of the delay in the values updating on the other side of the IPC channel
2015-06-11T22:46:21Z jasom: fourier: similarly if you write a gui library in lisp, there's not FFI overhead
2015-06-11T22:46:44Z fourier: Shinmera: yes I agree IPC approach will not work for UI with a timely important response
2015-06-11T22:46:47Z jasom: most have decided that the cost-benefit analysis yields using an FFI to a gui
2015-06-11T22:47:31Z oGMo: there's always FFI overhead, since something has to call the OS to draw at some point :p
2015-06-11T22:47:45Z oGMo: (or worse, with clx)
2015-06-11T22:47:46Z Shinmera: oGMo: What if you just imagine it, though
2015-06-11T22:47:54Z Shinmera: Imagine the UI.
2015-06-11T22:47:55Z fourier: jasom: but by some reason most good UI libraries have written NOT in lisp, with the exception of CAPI, but I can't even compare it to Qt (except for the language)
2015-06-11T22:47:57Z Shinmera: Instant response times.
2015-06-11T22:47:58Z nyef: oGMo: Tell that to a memory-mapped framebuffer.
2015-06-11T22:48:00Z oGMo: Shinmera: brain-to-lisp ui!
2015-06-11T22:48:22Z Shinmera: oGMo: AI, but the other way around
2015-06-11T22:48:45Z oGMo: nyef: ok in theory, but not on modern hardware
2015-06-11T22:48:49Z jasom: fourier: mainly because it's a shitload of work to implement a cross-platform GUI library, and a whole lot less work (but still a lot) to make a decent FFI wrapper for an existing one.
2015-06-11T22:49:25Z oGMo: nyef: otoh, ipc by call-free/lockless shared memory could work
2015-06-11T22:49:32Z nyef: oGMo: Right, modern hardware is about a memory-mapped IPC channel to a dedicated video processor.
2015-06-11T22:49:41Z oGMo: command buffer to a C render core
2015-06-11T22:49:48Z Shinmera 's next distant goal for Qtools is that it can automatically determine wrapper function argument names and documentation where possible
2015-06-11T22:50:03Z oGMo: nyef: not quite a framebuffer though heh
2015-06-11T22:51:26Z nyef: Yes, but if you can cut out the IPC/FFI overhead for talking to C and just speak to the hardware directly you get some performance win.
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2015-06-11T22:52:58Z Shinmera: I'm actually sort of surprised that there isn't a completed OpenCL wrapper for CL yet. (there's cl-opencl-3b, but that seems abandoned/incomplete)
2015-06-11T22:53:12Z fourier: jasom: I can't even find any good not C#/C++ one-platform libraries, even commercial ones. ProfUIS anyone?
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2015-06-11T22:54:02Z jasom: fourier: Tk?
2015-06-11T22:54:11Z fourier: I said good
2015-06-11T22:54:11Z Shinmera actually quite likes Swing
2015-06-11T22:54:23Z jasom: Tk is an amazing cross-platform GUI library
2015-06-11T22:54:36Z jasom: Qt is really the only one I can think of that is better.
2015-06-11T22:55:21Z fourier: Gtk is better; WxWidgets better (as it seems), FLTK is better as well. I actually struggling to find anything worse than Tk
2015-06-11T22:56:10Z jasom: we are getting way off topic, but I don't see how anyone could say with a straight face that fltk is better than tk, unless they've never actually used Tk (or only used an ancient one like maybe 8.3)
2015-06-11T22:56:32Z Shinmera should've been in bed long ago anyway
2015-06-11T22:56:35Z Shinmera: Good night, #lisp
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2015-06-11T22:56:46Z fourier: Shinmera: good night :)
2015-06-11T22:57:04Z fourier: It is enough what I used a bunch of programs using both, gitk/netgen from one siden and Acronis TrueImage/etc for another
2015-06-11T22:57:31Z jasom: gitk is a *horrible* use of Tk
2015-06-11T22:58:25Z jasom: It uses the old Motif theme on linux for extra bonus ugly points too
2015-06-11T22:58:46Z fourier: I wrote my thesis with the Tcl/Tk as a GUI and C/C++ libraries as a logic, but it was 10 years ago
2015-06-11T22:58:51Z jasom: It also relies only on the ancient pre-ttk versions of widgets
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2015-06-11T23:00:24Z fourier: What are the good examples? I see Mathematica and Matlab for example both use the Java+C++ for frontend. ANSYS which I used several years ago was Tk. You can see the differences even in screenshots
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2015-06-11T23:04:13Z jasom: fourier: well I took a few minutes to make gitk slightly less ugly: http://i.imgur.com/XaQSYpF.png http://i.imgur.com/D80wwwV.png
2015-06-11T23:06:37Z fourier: Yep the gitk is so ugly so I prefer to use tig in command line instead :( nothing can help
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2015-06-11T23:08:19Z fourier: just compare with anything built with ProfUIS or Xamarin, or built on native API
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2015-06-11T23:14:53Z fourier: ok I'm heading to bed as well. good night chat
2015-06-11T23:15:24Z jasom: http://www.compassis.com/ramdebugger/Intro <-- can't really tell that from something written in QT or GTK
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2015-06-11T23:17:23Z jasom: in general I find tk looks better than GTK when run on OS X or windows (not to mention getting GTK to work on windows is a whole lot of fun)
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2015-06-11T23:17:47Z jasom: for linux, it's a matter of what you think looks good, as there is no "native" gui look for linux
2015-06-11T23:18:14Z jasom: fltk tends to look like windows98 on all platforms, IIRC
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2015-06-11T23:22:12Z nyef: Windows98 wasn't bad, UI-wise.
2015-06-11T23:22:28Z nyef: Better than Windows 3.1 or the default Windows XP, at least.
2015-06-11T23:22:34Z p_l: just badly implemented
2015-06-11T23:22:40Z nyef: Right.
2015-06-11T23:22:55Z p_l: (though possibly in a way that would warm the hearts of hardcore lispm afficionados)
2015-06-11T23:23:32Z nyef: Three separate kernels, each of which knowing enough about the others to be able to smash up their internal data structures. What's not to love?
2015-06-11T23:23:53Z p_l: as for GUI, I would be quite interested in vector, solid shapes, CLIM-style interface (both in programming and some of the use
2015-06-11T23:24:03Z p_l: nyef: don't forget GDI drawing directly to VRAM
2015-06-11T23:24:07Z nyef: (Okay, IIRC only ONE of them went and smashed up the internal data structures of another...)
2015-06-11T23:24:42Z nyef: I'm still not in the least bit convinced about CLIM's "design-based" rendering model.
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2015-06-11T23:25:34Z p_l: nyef: the rendering model could be different, what I was thinking of was presentation-based behaviour etc.
2015-06-11T23:25:47Z nyef: Ah.
2015-06-11T23:25:57Z nyef: Still haven't gotten that far with NQ-CLIM. /-:
2015-06-11T23:26:19Z p_l: nyef: if, on windows, you could also somehow pack presentations into OLE/DCOM objects, you could do crazy shit that would make core windows devs buy you drinks forever, I guess ;D
2015-06-11T23:26:40Z p_l just read that some modern network hw still does CLNP/CLNS forwarding. FUN!)
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2015-06-11T23:27:27Z nyef: Half the point of OLE2 objects IS presentations, it's just not presented as such. d-:
2015-06-11T23:28:15Z p_l: nyef: yep
2015-06-11T23:28:40Z p_l: http://ml.cddddr.org/slug/msg07774.html <--- this somehow manages to be current, *TODAY*
2015-06-11T23:29:16Z p_l: And WinNT even managed to deliver the stack to do things like that, it's just that barely anyone outside Office used it
2015-06-11T23:29:46Z p_l: (and now, with "everything web", we're back to non-interoperational mainframe applications, except with often worse UI)
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2015-06-11T23:36:02Z PuercoPop: iiuc with *read-supress* nil read doesn't intern symbols when using read?
2015-06-11T23:37:19Z drmeister: I'm trying to get a sense for how much inlining/low level opencoding  I need to do before I'll start seeing a performance boost.
2015-06-11T23:37:28Z drmeister: What primitive operations are most important?  My guess: consp, car, cdr, rplaca, rplacd, +, -, eq
2015-06-11T23:38:18Z drmeister: nyef: You suggested:  Basic math, AREF, (SETF AREF), structure accessors.
2015-06-11T23:38:35Z p_l: drmeister: structure accessors are afaik nearly by standard inlined
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2015-06-11T23:39:02Z p_l: drmeister: what you might want to do is create a generic "cached lookup call"
2015-06-11T23:39:03Z nyef: Partly, it's a question of what your programs do.
2015-06-11T23:39:05Z p_l: doable in pure lisp, afaik
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2015-06-11T23:39:36Z JuanDaugherty wonders what pure lisp is
2015-06-11T23:39:36Z nyef: Being able to open-code floating-point math operations doesn't help you if your program never uses floating-point numbers.
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2015-06-11T23:40:39Z p_l: JuanDaugherty: I meant no code-generation level tricks, just macros that expand in a way that caches the lookup locally
2015-06-11T23:40:52Z JuanDaugherty: https://www.cs.princeton.edu/courses/archive/fall03/cs528/handouts/Pure%20Versus%20Impure%20LISP.pdf
2015-06-11T23:41:20Z p_l: not purity in the virginal maths in ivory tower sense
2015-06-11T23:41:42Z JuanDaugherty: or in the prolog sense
2015-06-11T23:42:03Z JuanDaugherty: c ftm
2015-06-11T23:42:59Z p_l: pure list in the above - something portably implementable in ANSI
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2015-06-11T23:49:00Z drmeister: p_l: My generic functions are cached.
2015-06-11T23:49:39Z drmeister: I could improve it but that much I do.
2015-06-11T23:50:20Z p_l: you could probably then improve type derivation of code that selects from multiple implementations
2015-06-11T23:50:42Z p_l: Haven't used clasp nor had time to research it very deeply to get better info
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2015-06-11T23:51:34Z p_l: my current work is much less high-brow, to the point that recent events with client make me think I should start putting MSc in my contact info and sit down that C.Eng. exam...
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2015-06-11T23:54:27Z drmeister: p_l: Do you mean type inference and using it to eliminate run-time type checks?
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2015-06-11T23:56:54Z p_l: drmeister: for certain specific kinds of situations, like basic arithmetic, certain functions (for example ones that accept any sequence - they could take a branch or two less if you know it's a vector or list, etc.)
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2015-06-12T00:20:06Z akkad: uffi is a no go  on platforms missing long-long
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2015-06-12T00:20:32Z p_l: is there anything still using uffi that can't be covered with some patches to cffi-uffi-compat ?
2015-06-12T00:21:14Z akkad: sqlite3 and csql-sqlite3 seem to bomb
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2015-06-12T00:21:42Z akkad: if it's easy to setup a high/lo for long-long then great
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2015-06-12T00:40:32Z akkad: cffi is newer than uffi?
2015-06-12T00:40:42Z Bike: yes, uffi is outmoded.
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2015-06-12T00:41:16Z Bike: ":long-long and :unsigned-long-long are not supported natively on all implementations. However, they are emulated by mem-ref and mem-set. " is how it goes in cffi, apparently
2015-06-12T00:41:56Z akkad: cffi emits the same error
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2015-06-12T01:09:07Z akkad: how hard is it to add support to sqlite-ffi for long-long?
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2015-06-12T01:45:27Z akkad: [package sqlite-ffi] Error: this platform does not support :long-long.
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2015-06-12T01:53:34Z Bike: akkad: i don't see that error message in cffi or in sqlite-ffi...
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2015-06-12T01:55:09Z akkad: yeah I can't find it there either
2015-06-12T01:55:29Z Bike: cffi's long longs are in types.lisp, it seems transparent.
2015-06-12T01:55:30Z akkad: I think it iterates and the local system generates that
2015-06-12T01:55:50Z akkad: right their docs say they don't support long-long on this platform
2015-06-12T01:56:15Z Bike: https://github.com/cffi/cffi/blob/master/src/cffi-allegro.lisp#L176-L196 Oh ho.
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2015-06-12T01:57:16Z akkad: well that rules out sqlite
2015-06-12T01:57:17Z akkad: thanks
2015-06-12T01:57:32Z p_l: to some CLIM-ers here - do you think a CLIM-like interface has any chance today (for custom, bespoke software)
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2015-06-12T01:58:36Z Bike: akkad: you might be able to fix it by replacing 187-189 with #+64bit(:long-long :nat). i don't have allegro so i can't test
2015-06-12T01:58:50Z akkad: Bike will try thanks
2015-06-12T01:59:38Z Bike: i think it's something easy, if not that.
2015-06-12T02:00:35Z akkad: yeah, a high low maybe
2015-06-12T02:01:09Z Bike: nah i mean cffi already has the obvious high low stuff in types.lisp, it just needs to come into play before %mem-set etc are passed :long-long.
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2015-06-12T02:01:55Z akkad: gotcha
2015-06-12T02:03:04Z Bike: if it's the error in cffi-allegro.lisp, it's cos the high level interface is somehow calling the low level a bit wrong, which might be a cffi bug.
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2015-06-12T02:06:49Z Bike: yeah, ecl has a similar only possible long-long, and all cffi does is conditionalize its definitions and long-long features.
2015-06-12T02:08:11Z akkad: excellent
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2015-06-12T02:22:27Z nyef: Okay, made a commit to nq-clim today, finally.
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2015-06-12T02:25:33Z nyef: I think that one of my projects for tomorrow is going to be lining up enough tasks that I can keep my github streak going for a few days with minimal effort... So that I can finish my initial progress assessment, scope analysis, and task list.
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2015-06-12T02:47:56Z nyef: Okay, just figured out where the sheet-level drawing options come from. Bloody spec spreads the information out over five or more places.
2015-06-12T02:48:18Z nyef: And then basically says "this happens" but provides no hint as to mechanism.
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2015-06-12T03:32:26Z pillton: Is there a book on CLIM?
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2015-06-12T03:49:28Z jaykru: hello there everyone
2015-06-12T03:49:52Z jaykru: lisp neophyte here, how would one "reduce concatenation" over a list of strings?
2015-06-12T03:50:05Z jaykru: essentially I have a list of strings that I'd like to be made into one string
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2015-06-12T03:50:28Z pillton: clhs reduce
2015-06-12T03:50:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_reduce.htm
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2015-06-12T03:50:33Z pillton: clhs concatenate
2015-06-12T03:50:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_concat.htm
2015-06-12T03:50:41Z Bike: (apply #'concatenate 'string strings), or (reduce (lambda (s1 s2) (concatenate 'string s1 s2)) strings)
2015-06-12T03:51:18Z nyef: (format nil "~{~A~}" '("one " "two " "three"))
2015-06-12T03:51:29Z nyef: Because screw doing it the long way.
2015-06-12T03:51:50Z jaykru: I tried this, but when i specify that I need concatenate to operate on the a values as strings, it whines at me
2015-06-12T03:52:03Z jaykru: this is perfect nyef, thank you
2015-06-12T03:52:10Z Bike: "whines" how? what's the deets
2015-06-12T03:52:10Z jaykru: didn't think of doing it with format
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2015-06-12T03:52:35Z nyef: ... Apparently, the inputs aren't actually strings, they're string designators of some sort, or worse.
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2015-06-12T03:53:07Z jaykru: (concatenate 'string) is not a legal function name
2015-06-12T03:53:20Z jaykru: which I'm aware of, but I don't know how to deal with it as an anonymous function
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2015-06-12T03:53:55Z nyef: ... wha?
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2015-06-12T03:54:14Z nyef: (apply #'concatenate 'string '("one " "two " "three")) => same thing, surely?
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2015-06-12T03:54:28Z Bike: i.e., what i actually wrote
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2015-06-12T03:54:39Z nyef: Yes.
2015-06-12T03:54:43Z Bike: i also put concatenate in an anonymous function for you.
2015-06-12T03:55:19Z jaykru: oops i missed your message completely Bike, thank you
2015-06-12T03:55:32Z Bike: oh, ok.
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2015-06-12T03:58:15Z aeth: Bike: What's the difference between your apply and your reduce?
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2015-06-12T03:59:44Z Bike: reduce calls the function on two strings at a time, apply does all at once
2015-06-12T04:00:35Z aeth: I do a (reduce (lambda (x y) (concatenate 'vector x y)) vectors) in my code in a few places. I don't remember why I settled on reduce instead of apply
2015-06-12T04:00:56Z aeth: Is apply better for this?
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2015-06-12T04:02:08Z Bike: if you have a whole lot of strings, apply runs into call-arguments-limit
2015-06-12T04:02:32Z Bike: i don't think either of them is meaningfully faster, though, just because concatenate is pretty complicated
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2015-06-12T04:04:11Z aeth: ah, that might be it, then
2015-06-12T04:04:20Z aeth: There might be a lot of vectors passed in
2015-06-12T04:05:03Z Bike: i mean, call-arguments-limit is kind of a theoretical concern, on my system it's in the quintillions (thank you ~r)
2015-06-12T04:06:08Z Bike: "Number too large to print in old Roman numerals". my kind of error message.
2015-06-12T04:06:51Z phf: i use ~r every time i need to write a check...
2015-06-12T04:07:07Z aeth: Oh, then I guess it was a premature optimization. I'll go with apply because it's shorter
2015-06-12T04:07:23Z Quadrescence: if you are abusing function argument list length you're probably doing something wrong
2015-06-12T04:07:26Z nyef: Isn't there an obnoxiously low minimum for call-arguments-limit, though?
2015-06-12T04:07:32Z aeth: This code is several years old at parts, I have no idea why I made some decisions
2015-06-12T04:07:50Z Quadrescence: nyef, one of the constants is 1024 isn't it? maybe that's not call-args-limit
2015-06-12T04:08:16Z nyef: I think that's the lower limit for positive-fixnum, which then rolls onto one of the array limits.
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2015-06-12T04:08:22Z Bike: clhs call-arguments-limit
2015-06-12T04:08:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_call_a.htm
2015-06-12T04:08:24Z phf: c-a-l "an integer not smaller than 50"
2015-06-12T04:08:33Z Quadrescence: :)
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2015-06-12T04:08:43Z nyef: Okay, 50 isn't bad, at least.
2015-06-12T04:08:58Z Quadrescence: 50 should be good enough for anyone except you knuckleheads who do (apple #'+ ...)
2015-06-12T04:09:10Z Bike: course, i imagine there's a number smaller than a quintillion arguments that would fuck up sbcl.
2015-06-12T04:09:11Z nyef: (apple 2 #'+ ...)?
2015-06-12T04:09:21Z Quadrescence: apply*
2015-06-12T04:09:27Z Quadrescence: :)
2015-06-12T04:09:32Z nyef: Bike: Yeah, any amount sufficient to blow your control stack.
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2015-06-12T04:10:01Z nyef: Could be as few as a hundred thousand or so.
2015-06-12T04:10:12Z Bike: clearly c-a-l should be recomputed on the fly.
2015-06-12T04:10:22Z nyef: Isn't it a constant?
2015-06-12T04:10:38Z Bike: gotta work on sounding more obviously jokey.
2015-06-12T04:10:57Z nyef: Ah.
2015-06-12T04:10:58Z nyef: Heh.
2015-06-12T04:10:59Z Quadrescence: after the Explorer War of 1995 nyef can no longer detect jokes
2015-06-12T04:11:30Z nyef: Oh, gods. I've been at this for a decade or more now!
2015-06-12T04:11:38Z nyef: Quadrescence: Way to make me feel old. d-:
2015-06-12T04:11:45Z Quadrescence: haha
2015-06-12T04:11:48Z Quadrescence: Bike, do not worry, you can define it as a symbol macro in CLTL3
2015-06-12T04:11:55Z nyef: (Besides, it was 2006ish.)
2015-06-12T04:12:18Z nyef: Hrm. Or maybe 2003ish.
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2015-06-12T04:12:46Z nyef: Definitely after "9/11".
2015-06-12T04:12:52Z Quadrescence: 2003 was 10 years ago just 2 years ago!
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2015-06-12T04:13:34Z nyef: I could look up more precise dates, but it's not that interesting right now.
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2015-06-12T04:19:47Z pillton: nyef: If you are old, you should be more concerned about the day and time than the date.
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2015-06-12T04:21:36Z aeth: oh now I know why I used reduce. I didn't know you could do (apply #'concatenate 'string strings)
2015-06-12T04:21:55Z aeth: I thought you had to do (apply #'function-name stuff), I didn't know you could do that 'string thing too
2015-06-12T04:21:58Z Bike: oh, yeah, spreadable argument lists are neat.
2015-06-12T04:22:40Z Quadrescence: bring back LEXPR-FUNCALL !
2015-06-12T04:23:05Z pillton: What did that do?
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2015-06-12T04:23:58Z Quadrescence: it is sorta like APPLY
2015-06-12T04:24:14Z aeth: oh that's funny, according to time, this is faster on my sbcl: (time (format nil "~{~A~}" (list "1" "2" 3"))
2015-06-12T04:24:41Z aeth: faster than apply... and you can even do "~{~A ~}~%" or "~{~A~^, ~}~%"
2015-06-12T04:24:58Z aeth: (okay, it's *about* the same speed)
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2015-06-12T04:27:53Z phf: there's also (with-output-to-string (s) (dolist (a '("foo" "bar" "qux")) (princ a s))) pattern, which is probably what format ultimately uses
2015-06-12T04:28:39Z Bike: it uses loop, but yeah, pretty much.
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2015-06-12T04:29:41Z aeth: apparently loop is pretty optimized
2015-06-12T04:30:27Z Quadrescence: not a false fact
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2015-06-12T04:41:33Z aeth: Why are lists faster than vectors in concatenate, mapcar (vs. map 'vector), etc.? At least in sbcl
2015-06-12T04:41:41Z aeth: about 1/3 the speed
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2015-06-12T04:42:00Z Bike: Are you using small lists?
2015-06-12T04:42:03Z aeth: ah
2015-06-12T04:42:07Z aeth: I was about to ask if it's the size issue
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2015-06-12T04:44:10Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-06-12T04:44:25Z beach: drmeister: Sorry for coming on late.  The network had problems.
2015-06-12T04:44:43Z drmeister: Hi beach. No problem. I'm just editing a proposal.
2015-06-12T04:45:04Z beach: Oh, right.  You said that.
2015-06-12T04:45:27Z beach: Now that I am on, I pushed a number of changes that should keep you busy for a while.
2015-06-12T04:45:50Z beach: But, I haven't been able to run them, so you must do that for now.
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2015-06-12T04:49:41Z drmeister: I'll grab them in a few minutes once Clasp finishes rebuilding.
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2015-06-12T04:52:34Z beach: drmeister: Also, I wrote a new HIR transformation that eliminates superfluous temporaries.  You might want to try it and compare the compilation time and resulting execution time with and without it.
2015-06-12T04:53:15Z drmeister: That's exciting.  LLVM does some of that for me as well.  I'm curious to see what happens.
2015-06-12T04:53:56Z beach: You should call it before you do the escape analysis.
2015-06-12T04:55:12Z beach: It makes a big difference to me now that I am using the SBCL compiler as a backend, because its register allocator just took a very long time before.
2015-06-12T04:58:04Z beach: I was actually able to create a SICL first-class environment on my dinky laptop with 1GB memory thanks to it.
2015-06-12T04:58:09Z beach: YAY!
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2015-06-12T05:03:25Z drmeister: So your SICL environment is consists of Cleavir compiled code running within SBCL?
2015-06-12T05:03:37Z drmeister: "environment consists"
2015-06-12T05:05:07Z drmeister: Using Cleavir's Common Lisp code generator?
2015-06-12T05:06:29Z drmeister: beach: That looks a lot better.
2015-06-12T05:06:56Z drmeister: It will just be a moment, I'm regenerating it.  I want to return T or NIL (I had left in my 1 or 0 example)
2015-06-12T05:06:56Z beach: drmeister: I am not using Cleavir for code generation.  Otherwise yes.
2015-06-12T05:09:52Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/sBkoCcK.png
2015-06-12T05:10:14Z drmeister: (clasp-cleavir::cleavir-compile 'consp '(lambda (x) (if (cleavir-primop:consp x) t nil)) :debug t)
2015-06-12T05:10:20Z drmeister: That is much improved - thank you!
2015-06-12T05:10:41Z beach: Sure, it's my job. :)
2015-06-12T05:12:02Z beach: And I want to apologize for my not-so-stellar performance yesterday.
2015-06-12T05:12:35Z drmeister: This consp-instruction will be easy to implement.  Is there any point to lowering it further to some combo of MIR instructions or should I just go straight to LLVM-IR with this?
2015-06-12T05:13:01Z aap_ is now known as aap
2015-06-12T05:13:12Z drmeister: I didn't notice anything - anyway - "for better or worse, through sickness and health" :-)
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2015-06-12T05:14:21Z drmeister: What is the new HIR transformation called?
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2015-06-12T05:14:39Z beach: drmeister: It might be worthwhile, because duplicate computations could be avoided by later MIR transformations.
2015-06-12T05:14:59Z beach: Then again, maybe not.
2015-06-12T05:15:07Z beach: I wouldn't worry about it for now.
2015-06-12T05:15:45Z beach: ELIMINATE-SUPERFLUOUS-TEMPORARIES.
2015-06-12T05:16:01Z drmeister: Well, it would deal with things like that string of assignments above the CONSP wouldn't it?
2015-06-12T05:17:00Z beach: That's the point, yes.   Right then I was talking about converting CONSP to MIR.
2015-06-12T05:17:31Z drmeister: Oh - got it!
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2015-06-12T05:18:58Z beach: A good register allocator should deal with those temporaries by assigning them to the same register and removing the assignments, but I am not so sure the SBCL register allocator does.  In any case, it takes a very long time to run.  Hence the transformation.
2015-06-12T05:19:07Z drmeister: This does the escape analysis IIRC:  cleavir-hir-transformations:hir-transformations
2015-06-12T05:19:39Z beach: I don't remember, and you probably have a bigger screen that I have for looking at it.
2015-06-12T05:20:15Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/wzVbfBjl/
2015-06-12T05:21:29Z beach: I am making the new transformation optional, because on some platforms it might make things worse.
2015-06-12T05:21:43Z drmeister: What do you call the escape analysis optimization?
2015-06-12T05:22:09Z beach: I don't understand the question.
2015-06-12T05:22:48Z beach: Escape analysis i not really an optimization, because it is required for things to work at all.
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2015-06-12T05:23:47Z drmeister: I'm trying to figure out what the name of the escape analysis function is in Cleavir.  You said I should run ELIMINATE-SUPERFLUOUS-TEMPORARIES before escape analysis.
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2015-06-12T05:26:08Z drmeister: Here's a thought - in LLVM they have a "pass manager", it's just something you load up a list of optimizers into and they get run on your code in sequence.   You could create a "pass manager" for Cleavir and I could just load it up with different combinations of optimizers.
2015-06-12T05:26:28Z beach: hold on
2015-06-12T05:26:43Z drmeister: I guess it's just as easier to string them together in a PROGN
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2015-06-12T05:29:16Z beach: drmeister: Escape analysis is the last line: process-captured-variables
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2015-06-12T05:31:35Z beach: drmeister: Yes, I don't think it i worthwhile at the moment to create a pass manager API since it is so easy to do it on the fly.
2015-06-12T05:32:47Z tmtwd: (defparameter *location* 'living-room)
2015-06-12T05:33:01Z tmtwd: is it just convention we use ** for variable names?
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2015-06-12T05:35:29Z beach: yes
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2015-06-12T05:36:16Z drmeister: It removed one temporary, but this is a tiny example.
2015-06-12T05:37:03Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/xjPxG7T.png
2015-06-12T05:37:26Z drmeister: Whoops, cleanup means it deletes it from imgur. Hang on.
2015-06-12T05:37:58Z drmeister: See! This is why I don't clean stuff up.
2015-06-12T05:39:33Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/NV3yOaF.png
2015-06-12T05:39:47Z drmeister: There you go.
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2015-06-12T05:41:26Z drmeister: Does the cleavir-primop:consp have to be the only thing in the IF condition expression?
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2015-06-12T05:41:34Z drmeister: What if I do something like: (clasp-cleavir::cleavir-compile 'consp '(lambda (x) (if (and t (cleavir-primop:consp x)) t nil)) :debug t)
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2015-06-12T05:43:14Z akkad: H4ns: Error: Symbol "+HTTP-NOT-FOUND+" not found in the hunchentoot package.
2015-06-12T05:43:20Z drmeister: Wait, you said (cleavir-primop:consp x) is only allowed in the condition of an IF special operator so I'm violating that with the above.
2015-06-12T05:43:34Z H4ns: akkad: so?
2015-06-12T05:43:41Z beach: drmeister: As long as it ends up in the condition branch of an IF-AST, it's fine.
2015-06-12T05:43:48Z akkad: I'm not familiar with that error on load.
2015-06-12T05:44:01Z H4ns: akkad: i'm not familiar with it either.
2015-06-12T05:44:13Z akkad: k
2015-06-12T05:45:22Z drmeister: The AST is a little nuts but the HIR looks identical.  Is my example being optimized?
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2015-06-12T05:45:52Z drmeister: AST: http://i.imgur.com/K7BUbPG.png
2015-06-12T05:46:34Z akkad: ahh. (setf (hunchentoot:return-code*) hunchentoot:+HTTP-NOT-FOUND+)
2015-06-12T05:47:23Z beach: drmeister: I am not sure what you are showing me or what optimization we are talking about.  I guess I haven't had enough coffee yet.
2015-06-12T05:47:58Z akkad: H4ns: it's in restas
2015-06-12T05:48:14Z akkad: sorry for disturbing you
2015-06-12T05:48:52Z beach: drmeister: In the long run, cleavir-primop:consp should only appear in one place, namely in the implementation of CL:CONSP.
2015-06-12T05:49:24Z beach: drmeister: The rest will be taken care of automatically by inlining and other optimizations.
2015-06-12T05:49:39Z H4ns: akkad: hunchentoot:+HTTP-NOT-FOUND+ is a valid constant name, so it seems that something in your build environment is not right.
2015-06-12T05:49:48Z beach: drmeister: But you can play with it a bit more for now since those optimizations are not in place yet.
2015-06-12T05:50:18Z drmeister: Ok, and what will it look like?    (defun cl:consp (x) (if (cleavir-primop:consp x) t nil))  - correct?   And it should be inlined wherever cl:consp is found?
2015-06-12T05:50:25Z akkad: ok thanks
2015-06-12T05:50:39Z beach: drmeister: Correct in both cases.
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2015-06-12T05:52:17Z drmeister: Ok. Got it.
2015-06-12T05:53:02Z drmeister: Is cleavir-primop:CAR, CDR, RPLACA and RPLACD in similar shape?  Can I stay busy for a while implementing those?
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2015-06-12T05:54:18Z beach: You need to implement CL:CAR as (defun car (x) (if (consp x) (cleavir-primop:car x) (if (null x) nil (error ...))))
2015-06-12T05:54:50Z beach: The other ones are analogous.
2015-06-12T05:57:13Z drmeister: Ok, I'll give it a whirl.
2015-06-12T05:57:33Z beach: do you see how that works?
2015-06-12T05:59:12Z drmeister: I think so - but if there is something special could you enlighten me?  I'm a bit puzzled why I wouldn't use (if (cleavir-primop:consp x) (cleavir-primop:car x) ...)
2015-06-12T05:59:36Z drmeister: Other than you saying that cleavir-primop:consp should only be used in CL:CONSP
2015-06-12T05:59:42Z beach: cleavir-primop:car can only be used if you know that you have a CONS.
2015-06-12T06:00:09Z beach: No, it can be used anywhere, provided you know its argument is a CONS.
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2015-06-12T06:00:23Z beach: But the only way to be sure of that is to test it first.
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2015-06-12T06:02:29Z beach: Does that make sense?
2015-06-12T06:02:41Z aeth: A difference between apply and reduce, btw, is that apply takes a list and reduce takes a sequence
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2015-06-12T06:03:15Z drmeister: It makes perfect sense that cleavir-primop:car can only be used if I know that I have a CONS.
2015-06-12T06:03:22Z beach: clhs reduce
2015-06-12T06:03:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_reduce.htm
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2015-06-12T06:03:49Z drmeister: What is this referring to?  "No, it can be used anywhere, provided you know its argument is a CONS."   What is "it"?
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2015-06-12T06:04:42Z beach: drmeister: Your saying "Other than you saying that cleavir-primop:consp should only be used in CL:CONSP"
2015-06-12T06:05:08Z drmeister: So I can only use cleavir-primop:consp if I know that it's argument is a CONS?
2015-06-12T06:05:11Z drmeister: its
2015-06-12T06:05:21Z beach: Sorry, my mistake.
2015-06-12T06:05:23Z beach: Forget it.
2015-06-12T06:05:46Z beach: You wrote CONSP and I read CAR.
2015-06-12T06:06:19Z drmeister: I see.   So above where you said: "drmeister: In the long run, cleavir-primop:consp should only appear in one place, namely in the implementation of CL:CONSP."
2015-06-12T06:07:00Z beach: Yes, that is still correct.
2015-06-12T06:07:43Z drmeister: So I shouldn't use cleavir-primop:consp as in...    (if (cleavir-primop:consp x) (cleavir-primop:car x) (if (null x) nil (error ...))))
2015-06-12T06:07:43Z beach: cleavir-primop:car can be used anywhere provided the argument i a cons.
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2015-06-12T06:08:14Z drmeister: Yes, I understand: "cleavir-primop:car can be used anywhere provided the argument is a cons."
2015-06-12T06:08:20Z beach: You can, but it is preferable to use CL:CONSP.
2015-06-12T06:08:28Z beach: The result will be the same.
2015-06-12T06:08:33Z drmeister: Ok.
2015-06-12T06:08:40Z drmeister: The result will be the same I understand.
2015-06-12T06:08:41Z beach: But not yet.
2015-06-12T06:08:53Z drmeister: Right.
2015-06-12T06:08:59Z beach: Because it requires an optimization that is not in place yet.
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2015-06-12T06:09:40Z drmeister: Ok, I better get to bed because I have to submit this proposal tomorrow.
2015-06-12T06:09:47Z beach: Sleep well.
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2015-06-12T06:15:04Z drmeister: Thank you very much for your help beach.
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2015-06-12T06:19:41Z beach: Anytime!
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2015-06-12T06:25:39Z kami: Good morning
2015-06-12T06:26:11Z beach: Hello kami.
2015-06-12T06:28:17Z theos thinks "Land of Lisp" is an awesome book too
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2015-06-12T06:36:26Z Oladon agrees!
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2015-06-12T07:11:48Z pjb: JuanDaugherty: p_l: "pure lisp" doesn't exist.  What this lecture is about, is "purely functional programming with lisp".
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2015-06-12T07:14:35Z beach: Of course "pure lisp" exists.  It suffices to define "pure" to mean "implements what the Common Lisp HyperSpec requires and nothing more".
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2015-06-12T07:14:55Z beach: It is a mistake to let the functional programming people dictate what is meant by "pure".
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2015-06-12T07:18:41Z pjb: beach: of course, we could do that, but there's a pre-existing literature unfortunately.
2015-06-12T07:19:23Z beach: I suggest we use "purely functional" as opposed to "pure".
2015-06-12T07:19:45Z beach: Then after a few years, we could introduce "merely functional".
2015-06-12T07:19:53Z pjb: aeth: or you may use com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.string:concatenate-strings
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2015-06-12T07:21:23Z pjb: aeth: using reduce concatenate is necessary when the list of string is too long for apply, but then it's very bad since it's O(n^2) in time and in temp space.  My CONCATENATE-STRINGS is O(n) and doesn't need temp space, only the result (which is of length n).
2015-06-12T07:23:21Z pjb: aeth: format and with-output-to-string cannot be more efficient.
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2015-06-12T07:24:38Z pjb: aeth: to iterate in sequence in a list, you only need to perform two memory accesses, one thru the cdr of the previous cons cell, and one thru the car of the current cell to get the element.
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2015-06-12T07:25:54Z pjb: aeth: to iterate in sequence in a vector you need to increment a counter (2 memory accesses), then multiply this counter by the size of the elements (one more memory access) then derefer the slot (one more memory access) for a total of at least 4 memory accesses (or you may also use more registers).
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2015-06-12T07:28:15Z pjb: aeth: on the other hand, there's also the possibility of efficient vector accesses at low level (eg. using processor instructions to perform the element size factor and using pointers), but it's more difficult to optimize down to this level.
2015-06-12T07:28:33Z pjb: You may want to try (declaim (optimize (debug 0) (safety 0) (space 3) (speed 3)))
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2015-06-12T07:39:04Z jackdaniel: pure as snow
2015-06-12T07:39:07Z jackdaniel: \o/
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2015-06-12T07:41:06Z theos: lisp is best served functional
2015-06-12T07:41:37Z jackdaniel: (setf * nil)
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2015-06-12T07:57:55Z pjb: jackdaniel: notice that * ** *** / // /// - + ++ +++ are special variables.  Outside of the REPL, they can be used as free (gratis) special variables :-)
2015-06-12T08:02:10Z jackdaniel: irc prompt feels so much repl tough ;)
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2015-06-12T08:28:24Z spacebat: iterating in sequence over a vector may be faster despite exta CPU work, by minimizing cache misses
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2015-06-12T08:37:43Z pjb: spacebat: yes, but this becomes true only for sequences bigger than the cache size (several megabytes…)
2015-06-12T08:39:17Z spacebat: thanks for your paste yesterday but not for the snarky comment :)
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2015-06-12T08:39:56Z pjb: spacebat: It's how it felt to me.  I always find very strange people asking for very simple functions as if they couldn't write them.
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2015-06-12T08:42:22Z spacebat: someone mentioned anonymous classes, which I guessed would mean mapping the symbols wouldn't find them
2015-06-12T08:42:33Z pjb: Indeed, this is possible.
2015-06-12T08:42:56Z pjb: Also, do-all-symbols doesn't iterate over uninterned symbols.
2015-06-12T08:43:04Z spacebat: good point
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2015-06-12T08:45:19Z spacebat: its a bit of a thorny issue at work, the current architecture saddles with an ORM built on top of LW clsql and a database shared by servers, one of which doesn't load all the classes because it is intended to be lightweight
2015-06-12T08:45:19Z pjb: It's difficult to write an exhaustive conforming heap walker because of closures and structures.
2015-06-12T08:45:48Z pjb: In practice there must not be that many anonymous or gensymed classes.
2015-06-12T08:46:02Z pjb: You wouldn't store them in databases in any case.
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2015-06-12T08:48:23Z spacebat: yup, LW clos:map-classes takes a lambda and passes (name class), which might imply that as far as it is concerned, they are keyed by name
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2015-06-12T08:50:07Z spacebat: but the function is not documented - I like the bells and whistles in LW but not the lack of source code, especially when it comes to the undocumented corners
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2015-06-12T08:51:57Z spacebat: I figure either we'll try to hide objects of the unknown classes, or make them lazy load
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2015-06-20T20:50:40Z zacts: ok, so can Common Lisp do static data types a la Haskell?
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2015-06-20T20:51:12Z zacts: and can Common Lisp easily do lazy-eval? or can you represent easily (w/o macros) the infinite set of N natural numbers as an abstraction in CL?
2015-06-20T20:51:22Z zacts: so you can deal with N as a data structure...
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2015-06-20T20:51:41Z zacts: (pardon if my question is too naive or newbie, perhaps I should ask this in #clnoobs)
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2015-06-20T21:10:46Z Bike: zacts: it has data types, of course, but not haskell-like ADTs. lazy evaluation you can do by throwing things into lambda expressions, like in SICP.
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2015-06-20T21:11:46Z zacts: ah ok
2015-06-20T21:11:48Z zacts: cool
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2015-06-20T22:46:25Z OxMLR: Are there any decent CL ide's for Linux? (aside from SLIME)
2015-06-20T22:48:37Z hitecnologys: OxMLR: VIM and slimv.
2015-06-20T22:48:46Z hitecnologys: OxMLR: besides that, I don't think so.
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2015-06-20T22:49:51Z hitecnologys: OxMLR: basically, you have a choice between Emacs and VIM. The rest of editors with decent CL support are either proprietary and cost money (and also come with compiler of its own, i.e. LispWorks) or WIP.
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2015-06-20T22:59:55Z fourier`: OxMLR: CL is too niche thing to have shiny IDEs. Live with it or leave it :(
2015-06-20T23:00:47Z hitecnologys: fourier`: maybe he's the one who'll write a new, better IDE!
2015-06-20T23:00:49Z fourier`: OxMLR: but SLIME is not decent, it is really good. The problem is it is the only one
2015-06-20T23:01:02Z Shinmera hasn't regretted switching from NetBeans to Emacs, so he doesn't care about the lack of other IDEs anyway.
2015-06-20T23:01:34Z hitecnologys: Well, it's not like the ones we have now are bad, but they certainly could be improved.
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2015-06-20T23:02:04Z fourier`: hitecnologys: hopefully so, CL really need some fresh editors/IDEs with bells and whistles like VS Code, Atom, Sublime or PyCharm
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2015-06-20T23:02:21Z Shinmera: Does it really
2015-06-20T23:02:24Z hitecnologys: I wouldn't want things like those.
2015-06-20T23:02:39Z hitecnologys: You're editing code, not pressing buttons.
2015-06-20T23:02:40Z fourier`: Shinmera: why to use NetBeans at all at first place. I've seen its production usage less than Emacs
2015-06-20T23:02:51Z hitecnologys: It's the editor that matters, not the whistles.
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2015-06-20T23:03:13Z Shinmera: fourier`: Because Java.
2015-06-20T23:03:43Z fourier`: hitecnologys: it is the everyday life, so it actually matters. Are you really have only useful things at home and don't have anything beautiful or art?
2015-06-20T23:04:00Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: by the way, what made you switch, if I may?
2015-06-20T23:04:12Z fourier`: Shinmera: Are you doing Java in Emacs? O_o
2015-06-20T23:04:19Z Shinmera: I always wanted to try lisp, and some day I did.
2015-06-20T23:04:33Z hitecnologys: fourier`: I'm not sure how to put it... but my home is a mess. Real mess.
2015-06-20T23:04:39Z Shinmera: fourier`: I don't do Java at all. But for the little university courses, yes, I do.
2015-06-20T23:05:03Z hitecnologys: fourier`: besides, whistles aren't beautiful. They waste developer's *and* CPU time.
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2015-06-20T23:05:25Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: have you coded in Java since that moment?
2015-06-20T23:05:37Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: Since which moment?
2015-06-20T23:05:40Z fourier`: Shinmera: for university it doesn't matter :)
2015-06-20T23:05:46Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: since starting lisping.
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2015-06-20T23:05:55Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: As I just said, yes. For university classes.
2015-06-20T23:06:15Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: well, I read that. I mean besides obligatory uses.
2015-06-20T23:06:21Z Shinmera: No, why would I?
2015-06-20T23:06:37Z hitecnologys: I wouldn't ask if I knew.
2015-06-20T23:07:13Z hitecnologys: I still do Cing from time to time even though I've switched a while ago.
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2015-06-20T23:07:34Z fourier`: hitecnologys: Not everybody likes the mess. And whistles are beautiful - people tend to use beautiful things by design, not by functionality at first place. I thought it is evident after success of iPhone and fall of the Symbian (I was in a part of Symbian ecosystem at these years and could understand the disadvantages and advantages between platforms)
2015-06-20T23:07:54Z Shinmera: fourier`: We're talking programmers here, not "people".
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2015-06-20T23:08:34Z hitecnologys: fourier`: I don't want to spend time clicking buttons, I want the job done. If one instrument does it the same way than the other but faster, I'll chose the former.
2015-06-20T23:08:58Z hitecnologys: Basically, that's why I switched to CLI from GUI.
2015-06-20T23:09:07Z fourier`: Shinmera: programmers here doing a lot of things regardless of the IDE/Editor/whatever. Most of the time spent browsing the code anyway, not typing
2015-06-20T23:09:18Z Shinmera: fourier`: So?
2015-06-20T23:09:57Z fourier`: Shinmera: so programmers are the people after all and like good looking things which sometimes helps getting things done.
2015-06-20T23:10:26Z Shinmera: You got your priorities the wrong way around then.
2015-06-20T23:10:29Z fourier`: hitecnologys: it is like you are clicking buttons all the day instead of carefully studiyng the code
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2015-06-20T23:10:40Z Shinmera: First and foremost should be getting things done. Having it look "nice" is secondary.
2015-06-20T23:10:56Z OxMLR: Honestly, Eventhough many people wont use IDE's, companies like them, and an open-source Lisp IDE would give CL more traction for sure
2015-06-20T23:11:01Z hitecnologys: I've already proposed solution to that a while ago and I wasn't the only one and definitely not the first one: give away the management of composition of atoms of code to the editor and add filter language for faster search and editing.
2015-06-20T23:11:23Z Shinmera: OxMLR: I think there's other, more important obstacles than an IDE.
2015-06-20T23:11:32Z hitecnologys: That was answer to fourier` message about browsing the code.
2015-06-20T23:11:52Z OxMLR: Shinmera, true, but good tools impress my boss more than the language itself sometimes
2015-06-20T23:11:58Z hitecnologys: OxMLR: right, like lack of ecosystem.
2015-06-20T23:12:09Z hitecnologys: OxMLR: sounds like a good reason not to use CL for me.
2015-06-20T23:12:28Z fourier`: Shinmera: the problem is what there is no contradiction. IDEA is an example. Eclipse is a counter-example. Emacs is both, since it could be good-looking and productive. It is just too steep for ordinary developer
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2015-06-20T23:12:48Z hitecnologys: Look a me! Emacs isn't too step.
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2015-06-20T23:12:56Z hitecnologys: Even a monkey could learn it.
2015-06-20T23:13:00Z Shinmera: I don't care about getting "ordinary developers" into this anyway.
2015-06-20T23:13:10Z hitecnologys: That too.
2015-06-20T23:13:20Z Shinmera: People who want to learn lisp, will.
2015-06-20T23:13:28Z Shinmera: And if they want to, but /can't/, then we have a problem.
2015-06-20T23:13:35Z Shinmera: So far I am not seeing that for the most part.
2015-06-20T23:14:02Z hitecnologys: That's probably because the ones who can't can't.
2015-06-20T23:14:03Z cluck: emacs is beautiful like a hollywood superstar (after a similar amount of "plastic surgery")
2015-06-20T23:14:05Z fourier`: Shinmera: "ordinary developers" do the things which works, you know, everything you are trying to find bindings to right now in CL
2015-06-20T23:14:19Z Shinmera: fourier`: If you say so, bro
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2015-06-20T23:14:49Z fourier`: Shinmera: It is not about a language, it is about a perception of the language and a tooling
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2015-06-20T23:15:30Z hitecnologys: (I mean can't reach this place. Basically, the only people who talk there are those who could get something done in Lisp.)
2015-06-20T23:15:35Z schjetne:  From what I've seen from Genera there was no end to the bells and whistles
2015-06-20T23:16:01Z schjetne: But bells and whistles don't necessarily have to get in the way
2015-06-20T23:16:03Z fourier`: if more people will learn and use the language, more beautiful things could come and more amazing projects/libraries whatsoever could arrise. The language could survive with the community of like 5 persons before they dye of the old age
2015-06-20T23:17:02Z hitecnologys: Sounds more like ghetto rather than community to me.
2015-06-20T23:17:03Z Snorky: I am trying to load a file with (load "simply.scm"), even though that file is in the dir I still get a error that says "*** File error: No such file or directory, simply.scm". Can anyone help?
2015-06-20T23:17:08Z fourier`: schjetne: there were a lot of issues to Genera, and the price was not the last. As I could recall there was a mail of one of the heads who explained why Symbolics fail
2015-06-20T23:17:23Z Shinmera: Snorky: "in the dir"? Which dir?
2015-06-20T23:17:38Z Shinmera: Snorky: Have a look at *default-pathname-defaults*
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2015-06-20T23:18:10Z Snorky: The dir my main file is in, or the one I am using the interpreter
2015-06-20T23:18:22Z Shinmera: fourier`: I think a lot more beautiful things would come out of lisp if people spent more time actually writing things, and less time debating how to get lisp to be the next hip thing.
2015-06-20T23:18:23Z Bike: Snorky: #scheme might know better than us
2015-06-20T23:18:25Z schjetne: fourier`: not only more people, but people with the right skills. UX is pretty hard
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2015-06-20T23:18:51Z hitecnologys: What's a UX?
2015-06-20T23:18:55Z schjetne: User experience
2015-06-20T23:18:56Z Snorky: Alright, do people here not use scheme?
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2015-06-20T23:19:04Z Shinmera: No, this is a CL channel.
2015-06-20T23:19:04Z hitecnologys: Oh, I guessed it right.
2015-06-20T23:19:06Z Bike: some might, but the channel is for common lisp
2015-06-20T23:19:09Z Shinmera: See #scheme
2015-06-20T23:19:27Z Bike: when you do ask them, you should probably mention which implementation you're using as well
2015-06-20T23:19:32Z hitecnologys: Snorky: it's confusing but the general Lisp channel is ##lisp. This is CL-only channel.
2015-06-20T23:19:52Z Snorky: Okay, thanks.
2015-06-20T23:19:52Z hitecnologys: I don't know who thought of that.
2015-06-20T23:20:02Z Shinmera: Nobody did, it happened.
2015-06-20T23:20:17Z Bike: ain't got no time for thinking.
2015-06-20T23:20:39Z hitecnologys: Yes, I know. That was rhetorical.
2015-06-20T23:21:04Z fourier`: Shinmera: I agree, but there just not enough people. Look like we got the ql just a few years ago. How many years behind CPAN? CTAN? python egg? ruby gems? etc. It could be done faster, there is no magic behind it and it is useful. Just - not enough resources
2015-06-20T23:21:20Z hitecnologys: (Although, I hoped somebody could point fingers…)
2015-06-20T23:21:40Z Bike: it was my fault. as supreme name overlord, i admit, this one was messy
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2015-06-20T23:21:58Z hitecnologys: Heh.
2015-06-20T23:22:08Z Shinmera: fourier`: Then stop whining and get going.
2015-06-20T23:22:28Z Shinmera: Bike: I'm glad you're taking the fall for all of us.
2015-06-20T23:22:48Z Bike: it's my duty as leader.
2015-06-20T23:23:00Z schjetne: Maybe what we need is have some UX experts to draw up some human interface guidelines for the next iteration of CLIM, and base an IDE on that.
2015-06-20T23:23:21Z Shinmera: Your great deeds shall be forever remembered in the grand halls of Lisp history.
2015-06-20T23:23:26Z hitecnologys: I think that's not the problem.
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2015-06-20T23:23:52Z schjetne: It would be problematic to get everyone to agree on those guidelines, though.
2015-06-20T23:23:58Z fourier`: Shinmera: yep I'll write some crap of course
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2015-06-20T23:24:43Z hitecnologys: schjetne: the problem is that there's no greater direction to work on. Everybody just keeps working on something he/she sees fit so nobody really knows what's going on. I see that as a greater problem that user experience.
2015-06-20T23:24:57Z Shinmera: fourier`: Let us know what kind of crap you'll come up with! :)
2015-06-20T23:25:12Z hitecnologys: schjetne: instead, somebody should do a research on what we have and what we don't have, like bindings ore crucial libraries.
2015-06-20T23:25:17Z hitecnologys: s/ore/or/
2015-06-20T23:25:39Z fourier`: schjetne: I believe if some company with a proper amount of investment like Trolltech in their days could do it, it just demands too big fundings to do it in a proper way
2015-06-20T23:26:13Z schjetne: hitecnologys: bindings and libraries seem trivial in comparison
2015-06-20T23:26:24Z hitecnologys: schjetne: depends.
2015-06-20T23:26:26Z schjetne: That's the stuff we already know how to do, not what we need outside help with
2015-06-20T23:26:43Z schjetne: fourier`: yes, unfortunately
2015-06-20T23:27:20Z schjetne: Then we have GNOME's effort, but that wasn't received too well, at least not at first
2015-06-20T23:27:23Z hitecnologys: schjetne: even though they may be trivial, I really have no idea about their completeness or availability. Cliki is no help here since half of the articles are really just one link and small sentence describing it.
2015-06-20T23:28:09Z hitecnologys: Anyway, that's where I'd start: studying current situation.
2015-06-20T23:28:10Z fourier`: Shinmera: I made one unsuccessfull attempt to port my emacs extension to CL to be a stand-alone app. I think I'll return to it sooner or later, but I don't believe it will have any use. Probably as a part of emacs it will survive better
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2015-06-20T23:34:25Z schjetne: hitecnologys: oh, you mean for greater adoption of CL?
2015-06-20T23:35:09Z hitecnologys: schjetne: not exactly but that includes it.
2015-06-20T23:35:32Z hitecnologys: schjetne: what I want is greater completeness.
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2015-06-20T23:39:42Z schjetne: I'm sure a tool in an IDE, perhaps based on Quicklisp, can make information about all the different libraries, their status, docs, etc. more visible, which might give more incentive to improve those things.
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2015-06-20T23:42:51Z schjetne: anyway, bedtime
2015-06-20T23:42:53Z fourier`: schjetne: the problem is this status is not yet available in QL yet as I can recall, that is why Xach asked around to provide the status. And it seems like major developers of commercial CL IDEs still don't get QL into account - for example it is not yet a part of LispWorks 7, which is really surprising me
2015-06-20T23:42:54Z hitecnologys: And how long it would take to develop such a tool?
2015-06-20T23:42:58Z hitecnologys: schjetne: night.
2015-06-20T23:43:20Z fourier`: schjetne: bb
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2015-06-20T23:50:29Z digiorgi: Hi, for the user interface which library are you using?
2015-06-20T23:50:49Z hitecnologys: commonqt.
2015-06-20T23:51:11Z hitecnologys: There's also cl-tk if you're a fan of those things.
2015-06-20T23:51:30Z Shinmera: Qtools
2015-06-20T23:51:42Z hitecnologys: Wait, that wasn't cl-tk.
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2015-06-20T23:51:55Z hitecnologys: I can't recall the name.
2015-06-20T23:52:08Z hitecnologys: Oh, ltk that is.
2015-06-20T23:52:53Z fourier`: digiorgi: CAPI if you are willing to spend 1000Eur for the Lispworks Hobbyist-DV, but at least it is more/less hassle-free
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2015-06-20T23:54:59Z hitecnologys: A 1000 EUR?
2015-06-20T23:55:11Z fourier`: hitecnologys: yep
2015-06-20T23:55:18Z hitecnologys: ._.
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2015-06-20T23:55:56Z digiorgi: I won at most 70usd per month... that is imposible.. jajaja
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2015-06-20T23:56:14Z fourier`: hitecnologys: and it is only for 32bit edition
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2015-06-20T23:57:41Z hitecnologys: Well, I can always sell a kidney or two. That's approximately how much my kidney's worth anyway.
2015-06-20T23:58:01Z fourier`: digiorgi: find a job. everything is possible. If you compare countless evenings tryngi to inject some life to an old outdated libraries, it is not that much
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2015-06-21T00:00:39Z fourier`: digiorgi: alternatively you can spend the approximately same amount of time (or double/tripple if you don't know C++ already) and study C++/Qt and get everything for free.
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2015-06-21T00:02:28Z hitecnologys: Qtools is really good.
2015-06-21T00:02:35Z hitecnologys: Try this one first.
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2015-06-21T00:03:16Z pjb: hitecnologys: it should be trivial for somebody like you to edit the articles of cliki,a nd to keep track of the changes on the git repos to update the completeness or availability statements on cliki.
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2015-06-21T00:05:38Z hitecnologys: pjb: no, it's not. As I said, I have no idea what's going on and I'd have to do a research first. After that, I could do it. The problem is that I have practically no time to spare since I'm constantly busy doing useless crap so I have to suffer. However, I've recently got on vacation so I could spend some time looking into it.
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2015-06-21T00:06:13Z fourier`: hitecnologys: how you can recommend to use qtools without knowing Qt in the first place? :)
2015-06-21T00:06:15Z hitecnologys: It's not like I'm actually useful nor here nor anywhere, though. All I do is provide useless and pointless comments.
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2015-06-21T00:06:46Z hitecnologys: fourier`: I assume he should have at least basic understanding of what's going on inside.
2015-06-21T00:06:55Z hitecnologys: fourier`: you don't need C++ for that.
2015-06-21T00:07:08Z fourier`: hitecnologys: for Qt ? O_o
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2015-06-21T00:08:16Z hitecnologys: fourier`: right. The manual as I remember it does not have any sophisticated enough example of C++ code a random developer only familiar with basic C-like constructs wouldn't understand.
2015-06-21T00:08:25Z fourier`: hitecnologys: and by the way just read the documentation of qtools:
2015-06-21T00:09:22Z fourier`: here is a random example(suppose I would like to understand how to create a custom widget, let's say an edit control with custom color):
2015-06-21T00:11:11Z pjb: hitecnologys: what makes you think it's different for anybody else?
2015-06-21T00:11:32Z hitecnologys: pjb: what's different?
2015-06-21T00:12:00Z pjb: everybody's busy doing their crap, and can't spend time updating a database.
2015-06-21T00:12:45Z fourier`: "The central part to this is the define-widget macro. This expands to a defclass with the following effects: It sets widget-class as the metaclass, sets the first item of the superclass list as the qt-superclass, and injects widget as a superclass, if it isn't one already. This means that essentially you can use anything you could in a standard defclass without having to worry about the necessary default options."
2015-06-21T00:13:03Z fourier`: (it is a comment about knowing Qt, not a c++)
2015-06-21T00:14:49Z hitecnologys: pjb: I didn't say it was different.
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2015-06-21T00:33:05Z fourier`: ok bb everyone, heading to sleep as well
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2015-06-21T01:19:25Z imagine: hello everybody
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2015-06-21T01:21:14Z OxMLR: hey imagine
2015-06-21T01:21:18Z |3b|``: Bike: you can't get the extension function pointers withourt a valid GL context, and on some platforms they even depend on which context (cl-opengl doesn't handle that case correctly though, since it doesn't usually matter)
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2015-06-21T01:21:45Z |3b|: Bike: and opening a window to get a context at load time sounds rather rude :)
2015-06-21T01:22:30Z Bike: so weird.
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2015-06-21T01:23:15Z |3b|: nah, just same problem as most computer stuff, lack of ability to see the future :[
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2015-06-21T01:23:43Z |3b|: combined with the other same problem as most computer stuff, microsoft :p
2015-06-21T01:23:48Z Bike: gl seems weirder than most libraries as far as loading things
2015-06-21T01:24:06Z Bike: usually i'd just get version errors, not a version from 1997, i think
2015-06-21T01:24:11Z |3b|: would you prefer to be permanently stuck at gl 1.2 ?
2015-06-21T01:24:22Z OxMLR: is sdl better than gl for CL graphics programming?
2015-06-21T01:24:30Z Bike: they're not in the same category
2015-06-21T01:24:33Z |3b|: (or did ms finally upgrade to 1.4 or something on win 7?)
2015-06-21T01:24:47Z Bike: |3b|: i mean, i don't understand why it's organized to load an ancient version like that
2015-06-21T01:24:55Z |3b|: sdl2 uses GL internally, and most people using GL from CL also use sdl
2015-06-21T01:25:11Z |3b|: Bike: it is a system API, windows doesn't provide new versions
2015-06-21T01:25:30Z |3b|: so if it didn't have an extension mechanism, it couldn't load anything newer
2015-06-21T01:25:39Z Bike: well i don't know about windows, but it's ancient on this linux system too.
2015-06-21T01:26:08Z Bike: there was an exciting time of trying to figure out why i wouldn't have glGenTextures or something
2015-06-21T01:26:16Z |3b|: you could probably link against 2.x on linux if you wanted, but then you still couldn't use 4.x since the os-provided libs on linux don't know about it
2015-06-21T01:27:18Z |3b|: GL devs decided to allow vendor extensions, which more or less worked out well. that ended up being used for core functions as well on platforms that don't ship newer libraries
2015-06-21T01:27:26Z |3b|: s/devs/spec authors/
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2015-06-21T01:30:58Z |3b|: and as far as cl-opengl, it doesn't particularly favor begin/end stuff, it just doesn't gratuitously drop it, and making good abstractions for newer stuff is hard :/
2015-06-21T01:32:46Z Bike: oh, i just said that cos the examples are kind of old. and i saw with- macros for begin/end but not, uh, something about buffering, which i'm current wrestling with how to abstract
2015-06-21T01:32:47Z |3b|: though possibly it is to the point where it would be worth writing a 3.x+ version since most things support that now
2015-06-21T01:33:07Z |3b|: yeah, i think there are 1 or 2 slightly newer examples
2015-06-21T01:33:14Z Bike: i did see the shader one.
2015-06-21T01:33:52Z |3b|: one problem is that it is harder to write concise self-contained examples while focusing on the newer parts of the API
2015-06-21T01:34:04Z Bike: right now i have a c program that's written for 3.x and does weird things with shaders that i'm trying to port
2015-06-21T01:34:22Z Bike: so far the nicest thing is that cl-opengl skips the C song and dance about infologs :D
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2015-06-21T02:00:32Z akkad: Nick Allen here?
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2015-06-21T02:04:59Z nyef: Okay, I have three cases. (REGION-DIFFERENCE +EVERYWHERE+ +NOWHERE+) => +EVERYWHERE+, (REGION-DIFFERENCE +EVERYWHERE+ +EVERYWHERE+) => +NOWHERE+, and (REGION-DIFFERENCE +EVERYWHERE+ some-other-region-type) => error.
2015-06-21T02:05:10Z nyef: My problem is coming up with a suitable error message.
2015-06-21T02:06:05Z Bike: "Can't take REGION-DIFFERENCEs between everywhere and anywhere but everywhere or nowhere"?
2015-06-21T02:06:39Z nyef: Hrm. Might be workable.
2015-06-21T02:06:58Z Bike: i mean, might as well be straightforward about it
2015-06-21T02:08:20Z nyef: Yeah, I was trying to cite CLIM II 3.1.2, which requires that the result of REGION-DIFFERENCE be a simple region or a region-set (which is bounded) or a standard-region-difference (which is a subclass of region-set), and of course "everywhere other than this set of points here" doesn't tend to be bounded...
2015-06-21T02:08:46Z Bike: do you have something like sbcl's errors with citations?
2015-06-21T02:09:21Z nyef: Not especially, no.
2015-06-21T02:09:30Z nyef: I was going for a SIMPLE-ERROR at this time.
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2015-06-21T02:11:23Z |3b| would probably change the spec in that case (assuming it was being changed at all)
2015-06-21T02:11:34Z |3b|: negated regions sound like useful things to have
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2015-06-21T02:15:29Z nyef: Oh, I'm already planning on gutting most of the region stuff in my own spec, and I'm ignoring a good chunk of it now, but...
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2015-06-21T02:16:31Z nyef: ... I don't know. I can see negated regions being useful in the abstract, but I'm disinclined to try to implement them until I run into an actual use-case.
2015-06-21T02:16:49Z nyef: I had been hoping to get away without even +EVERYWHERE+, but it turned out to be the default clipping region.
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2015-06-21T02:17:57Z |3b|: i guess putting an opaque region on top of something is comparable to cutting the same region out of it for a lot of use cases
2015-06-21T02:18:35Z |3b|: though would require some duplication if the goal is to see what's behind it through the hole
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2015-06-21T03:53:50Z OxMLR: sorry to be a burden, but how would someone install cl-opengl with sbcl on linux? Cant find info anywhere
2015-06-21T03:54:25Z Bike: get quicklisp
2015-06-21T03:54:39Z Bike: https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/
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2015-06-21T03:54:49Z Bike: then do (ql:quickload :cl-opengl).
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2015-06-21T04:01:47Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-06-21T04:02:08Z Bike: aloha.
2015-06-21T04:02:09Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-06-21T04:13:17Z tificone: re.
2015-06-21T04:18:22Z OxMLR: thanks Bike
2015-06-21T04:18:52Z OxMLR: How do you load it after installation? I followed the intructions off the site and it still says GL package not found
2015-06-21T04:19:21Z Bike: (ql:quickload :cl-opengl)
2015-06-21T04:20:06Z beach: tificone: New here?
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2015-06-21T05:22:54Z emaczen`: I'm finding myself often wanting to put the comma infront of a list to evaluate a form in a macro, i.e. ,(a b c)
2015-06-21T05:22:54Z minion: emaczen`, memo from pjb: for a small example of a cocoa application written in ccl without xib/nib, git clone http://git.informatimago.com/public/games/hangman-cocoa-lisp
2015-06-21T05:26:13Z emaczen`: minion: memo for pjb: Thanks! I'll have to check it out at the start of this coming week.
2015-06-21T05:26:13Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell pjb when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-06-21T05:26:44Z emaczen`: Back to my question...
2015-06-21T05:26:52Z emaczen`: I'm finding myself often wanting to put the comma infront of a list to evaluate a form in a macro, i.e. ,(a b c)
2015-06-21T05:27:03Z emaczen`: What if I want the last form to be spliced with ,@ ?
2015-06-21T05:27:39Z Bike: apply
2015-06-21T05:27:46Z emaczen`: I found A solution for this problem by using (apply #'fn args), however that does not port to parenscript
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2015-06-21T11:29:11Z hardenedapple: Is there some neat method of dispatching on the element-type of a stream? I currently get the type with STREAM-ELEMENT-TYPE and dispatch in COND with things like (EQUAL '(UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) ...) but it seems roundabout
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2015-06-21T11:33:17Z Zhivago: You could use a method with an EQL specializer, I guess.
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2015-06-21T11:35:51Z hardenedapple: Zhivago: sorry, I don't follow -- specialising on the stream?
2015-06-21T11:37:18Z Zhivago: On the element type.
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2015-06-21T11:47:16Z drmeister: beach: Are you still online?
2015-06-21T11:47:35Z beach: Heh, just happened to show up 30 seconds ago.
2015-06-21T11:48:59Z hardenedapple: Zhivago: Thanks
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2015-06-21T11:50:16Z drmeister: beach: Do you have any advice on where to put the handler-bind to provide restarts for cleavir-env:no-function-info and cleavir-env:no-variable-info ?
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2015-06-21T11:50:49Z drmeister: I currently have it in a support function called by COMPILE-FILE.
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2015-06-21T11:51:00Z beach: Sounds good to me.
2015-06-21T11:51:20Z beach: I was going to say "in COMPILE and COMPILE-FILE".
2015-06-21T11:51:50Z drmeister: But when I load Slime code is being LOADed that is not using COMPILE-FILE and it's complaining about cleavir-env:no-function-info.
2015-06-21T11:52:03Z drmeister: I see, I should have it inside COMPILE as well.
2015-06-21T11:52:26Z beach: Yeah, I think so, or in some common function called by those two.
2015-06-21T11:52:43Z akkad: 3s sbcl, 300s ACL 10, 100s LW7... Even if you disable all the +sbcl optimizations in ironclad, it only increases it's time a couple of seconds...
2015-06-21T11:53:09Z drmeister: Yeah, these are two blocks of code that should really be one.
2015-06-21T11:53:26Z drmeister: Ok, thanks.
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2015-06-21T12:01:28Z drmeister: Or at least, they should be rearranged to share commonalities.
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2015-06-21T12:23:38Z drmeister: cclasp works with Slime and DISASSEMBLE gives me LLVM-IR
2015-06-21T12:23:48Z drmeister: Back in bizniz
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2015-06-21T12:32:45Z drmeister: How careful should I be using (WITH-COMPILATION-UNIT (:OVERRIDE T) ...) ?
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2015-06-21T13:04:55Z beach: drmeister: You can just make a wrapper around GENERATE-AST that contains the handler.
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2015-06-21T17:48:42Z physixer: can you create lisp meta-macros? macros that expand into macros, that then expand into lisp?
2015-06-21T17:49:14Z Bike: macros can return macro forms that are again expanded, or you can have macros that expand into macro definitions or use macrolet.
2015-06-21T17:50:11Z physixer: I'm trying to understand if lisp can do multi-stage metaprogramming, as advocated by Taha of the MetaOCaML fame
2015-06-21T17:50:29Z pjb: Macro making macros!  Oh my god!
2015-06-21T17:50:29Z minion: pjb, memo from emaczen`: Thanks! I'll have to check it out at the start of this coming week.
2015-06-21T17:50:45Z Bike: macros don't have to expand into function calls only, or something, if that's what you're thinking of.
2015-06-21T17:51:04Z Bike: that would be kind of annoying and pointless.
2015-06-21T17:51:21Z physixer: pjb: that would be two-stage metaprogramming, a n=2 version of multi-stage metaprogramming
2015-06-21T17:51:56Z Bike: does anything that has metaprogramming define some kind of limit? that's hard to believe. even C macros can expand into arbitrary other macros.
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2015-06-21T17:52:59Z physixer: Bike: I don't know the answer to that. That's why I asked. Maybe every metaprogramming system is also trivially multi-stage, maybe not.
2015-06-21T17:53:41Z pjb: Bike: no, you cannot do: #define gen(m) #define m(x) x##m /* for example */
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2015-06-21T17:54:03Z Bike: that's a directive rather than a macro, but yeah, point taken.
2015-06-21T17:54:21Z pjb: but it is trivial to do (defmacro gen (m) `(defmacro m (x) `,(intern (format nil "~A~A" ',x ,',m))))
2015-06-21T17:54:51Z Bike: the first lisp code i looked at did that but moreso. i didn't understand shit
2015-06-21T17:55:09Z ggole: Metaocaml's staging system is quite different to macros, I think
2015-06-21T17:55:43Z Bike: googling this gets me some oleg.
2015-06-21T17:55:45Z cojy_: its closer to eval
2015-06-21T17:56:22Z ggole: There are first class code values and facilities to manipulate them, but the purpose is staging rather than syntactic abstraction
2015-06-21T17:56:39Z ggole: And the staging is at runtime (afaik)
2015-06-21T17:57:22Z ggole: I need to play with it more deeply some time
2015-06-21T17:59:29Z cojy_: minus the hygeine and type safety quasiquote is bracket, unquote is escape, eval is run
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2015-06-21T18:00:01Z cojy_: you can get csp and a proper residual program by either saving the lisp image or using a couple other tricks and serializing
2015-06-21T18:00:42Z ggole: I was thinking more of 'compile', but yeah
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2015-06-21T18:03:10Z pjb: You can easily find 3-level meta with: find ~/quicklisp -name \*.lisp -exec grep -nHi -e ,\',\', {} \;
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2015-06-21T18:04:26Z BWV988: Meta-hello b
2015-06-21T18:04:41Z oleo: oink oink
2015-06-21T18:05:40Z oleo waves eyebrows!
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2015-06-21T18:06:20Z BWV988: Oleo!
2015-06-21T18:06:25Z oleo: hellauuu
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2015-06-21T18:06:33Z BWV988: Ahahah
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2015-06-21T18:09:38Z oleo: :)
2015-06-21T18:09:39Z oleo: lol
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2015-06-21T18:17:50Z spyrosoft: physixer: See the "Beyond the obvious, part 2: macros that define macros" section:
2015-06-21T18:17:51Z spyrosoft: http://psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/chapter20.html
2015-06-21T18:17:53Z failproofshark: Hello, I'm trying to use CFFI and autowrap to create a binding for a C library and I need to create a function for a wrapper that has a struct argument that is passed by value. I've created a name for the struct that needs to be passed by value as well as a name for the function with defcstruct and defcfun respectively, however when I call the function I get an error saying that there is no method for the CFFI::SLOT-TYPE generic function. I'v
2015-06-21T18:18:24Z Bike: failproofshark: cut off at "I'v"
2015-06-21T18:18:33Z Bike: er, after CFFI::SLOT-TYPE.
2015-06-21T18:18:50Z physixer: spyrosoft: thanks.
2015-06-21T18:19:21Z failproofshark: Bike: ah sorry. essentially i tried using foreign-funcall to make a function call but i get an error stating that no translate-into-freign-memory method has been defined for the struct i created
2015-06-21T18:19:38Z failproofshark: paste: http://paste.lisp.org/display/150303
2015-06-21T18:20:22Z failproofshark: also i made sure that cffi-libffi is loaded (as per the documentation)
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2015-06-21T19:27:57Z failproofshark: when defining a c struct with cffi:defcstruct do I have to implement a translate-into-foreign-memory method for the defined struct?
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2015-06-21T20:27:53Z Snappy_: I'm curious how does learning lisp make you a better C programmer?
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2015-06-21T20:29:27Z jackdaniel: does it?
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2015-06-21T20:30:06Z Snappy_: I don't know, I read in multiple posts that it does.
2015-06-21T20:30:17Z Snappy_: Not only C though.
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2015-06-21T20:30:32Z jackdaniel: it makes you better programmer, so you may benefit from knowledge you gain anywhere
2015-06-21T20:30:42Z jackdaniel: but why explicitly C?
2015-06-21T20:31:01Z Snappy_: Cause I use C the most
2015-06-21T20:31:11Z Snappy_: And I'm intrested in Lisp
2015-06-21T20:31:15Z jackdaniel: but you may be a better programmer also learning haskell or many others languages
2015-06-21T20:31:20Z akkad: lisp just helps you work out how to code something
2015-06-21T20:31:49Z jackdaniel: Snappy_: then read about cffi, or if you want to incorporate lisp in your c code and vice-versa, learn about ecl implementation
2015-06-21T20:32:43Z Snappy_: jackdaniel: Thanks for that info
2015-06-21T20:33:05Z jackdaniel: yw
2015-06-21T20:34:11Z k-stz: "lisp makes you a better programmer for the profound enlightment you experience once you finally get it (...)" paraphrasing ers in his "how to become a hacker"
2015-06-21T20:34:27Z akkad: how hard is it to use cffi to use external c libs?
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2015-06-21T20:35:46Z jackdaniel: akkad: quite easy, but you need to grovel headers
2015-06-21T20:35:58Z akkad: k
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2015-06-21T20:36:06Z jackdaniel: or if you use only a few funcitons, you may just type declarations by hand
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2015-06-21T20:42:35Z pjb: Snappy_: when you write C program, you often are lost in low level details (memory management, pointer handling, etc).
2015-06-21T20:42:49Z pjb: Snappy_: when you write lisp program, you don't, you're free to think at a higher level.
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2015-06-21T20:43:46Z Snappy_: pjb: Ohh, I see.
2015-06-21T20:43:52Z pjb: Snappy_: therefore, once you've learned lisp and become a lisp programmer, when you write C program you will first think high level, and produce C programs that are better structured, with higher level abstractions, and therefore clearer, easier to debug and maintain, etc.
2015-06-21T20:44:54Z jackdaniel: or you get used to all goodies and you make more mistakes with memory management etc, so you are essentially worse c programmer after all
2015-06-21T20:44:58Z dim: well once you become a lisp programmer, do you even write any C ever again?
2015-06-21T20:45:12Z Quadrescence: yes you do
2015-06-21T20:45:14Z pjb: jackdaniel: no, you just link with boehmgc.
2015-06-21T20:45:22Z Quadrescence: when you can't get f-ing floating point numbers to not cons
2015-06-21T20:45:22Z nyef: dim: As a current Lisp programmer, and former-and-occasional C programmer, I can assure you, I still write C on occasion.
2015-06-21T20:45:34Z Quadrescence: and when you can't get a decent sequence of machine instructions to solve simple arithmetic problems
2015-06-21T20:46:01Z dim: well I used to write C too (contributing to PostgreSQL) but I now am quite happy to avoid writing C and write CL instead
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2015-06-21T20:46:49Z nyef: Actually, some Lisp programmers found themselves spending more time writing C than ever...
2015-06-21T20:47:09Z loke_: Good evening (euro time)
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2015-06-21T20:47:23Z jackdaniel: good night all :)
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2015-06-21T20:49:40Z loke_: Hello jack
2015-06-21T20:49:43Z loke_: jackdaniel
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2015-06-21T20:51:27Z Petit_Dejeuner__: Quadrescence, What do you mean by "getting floating point numbers to not cons"?
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2015-06-21T20:53:07Z Bike: probably getting that do floating point arithmetic without boxing unnecessarily
2015-06-21T20:53:19Z Quadrescence: Petit_Dejeuner__, On many platforms in most configurations floating point numbers will be allocated to the heap
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2015-06-21T20:54:00Z Petit_Dejeuner__: Oh, that sounds bad.
2015-06-21T20:55:20Z Quadrescence: Which means if you are, for example, trying to write a tight loop to render frames for, say, video, you have to try all sorts of tricks to try to not get them allocated. But the tricks you often have to do compromise your code quality and modularity
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2015-06-21T20:55:58Z Quadrescence: and even then you will still have a difficult time cutting out lots of useless instructions, even on platforms like SBCL, which doesn't have e.g. peephole optimization
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2015-06-21T21:01:44Z OxMLR: So sbcl is the preferred CL implementation for linux?
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2015-06-21T21:06:09Z Quadrescence: OxMLR, many people use SBCL or CCL
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2015-06-21T21:23:12Z aeth: Is POSITION better than regex? I think POSITION can do everything regex can with enough help. e.g. "^foo" is just (and (= (position \#f string) 0) (= (position \#o string) 1) etc
2015-06-21T21:23:45Z Bike: cl-ppcre goes to a search like that if it can
2015-06-21T21:23:57Z aeth: "foo" without the ^ means you get the position of \#f and then work on substr repeatedly
2015-06-21T21:24:00Z Bike: but it sometimes can't, as for example by pretty much any use of * or +
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2015-06-21T21:24:46Z aeth: Bike: I don't think it optimizes "^foo" because it is slower than this
2015-06-21T21:24:59Z aeth: Maybe it's equivalent for "foo"
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2015-06-21T21:25:02Z Bike: it does. it probably still has some overhead
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2015-06-21T21:26:33Z aeth: for * hmm... you'd have to loop or recursively go over the substr until it's nil or not (= (1+ i)), right?
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2015-06-21T21:27:34Z Bike: more or less.
2015-06-21T21:27:48Z Bike: of course, you can have things after.
2015-06-21T21:27:59Z Bike: 'a+b+c', say. you can use position to get to the start, but not really the finish.
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2015-06-21T21:29:54Z Bike: if you're trying to make regexes fast, i'd recommend looking at research. people have done many tricy things. here's one start: https://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html
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2015-06-21T21:31:55Z aeth: Bike: I don't actually need regex for most things
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2015-06-21T21:32:21Z aeth: Bike: I'd prefer a very low overhead macro that does less but does what I happen to need
2015-06-21T21:32:22Z Bike: yeah. well, they're still pretty useful.
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2015-06-21T21:32:40Z aeth: Yes, where needed
2015-06-21T21:32:44Z Bike: if you're just doing substring search there's a billion complications as wel.
2015-06-21T21:33:21Z Bike: like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuth%E2%80%93Morris%E2%80%93Pratt_algorithm. i think it's built into cl:search in some implementations.
2015-06-21T21:33:45Z Shinmera: Bike: Thanks for that article, I'll have a read later.
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2015-06-21T21:34:28Z Bike: Shinmera: if you're really interested you might look up agrep. you can compile static regexes down to bitwise operations, it's nuts.
2015-06-21T21:34:45Z Shinmera: Wow.
2015-06-21T21:35:16Z Bike: plus it's approximate ('a'), they use it for BLAST and stuff i believe.
2015-06-21T21:36:19Z aeth: Bike: is and = position = position etc. better or worse than search?
2015-06-21T21:36:55Z aeth: when I have a specific substr prefix in mind
2015-06-21T21:37:09Z Bike: Well, doing multiple positions like you did is probably inefficient. You could just find the position of f and then make sure that the next character is an o.
2015-06-21T21:37:47Z Bike: and then if it's not you go to the next position of the first character. that's the naïve algorithm. if you have a repetitious string you're looking for you can use KMP instead and probably get some speedup.
2015-06-21T21:38:29Z aeth: this is "^foo" though
2015-06-21T21:38:37Z aeth: so f is 0 or irrelevant
2015-06-21T21:38:45Z Bike: then you don't even need position.
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2015-06-21T21:39:24Z Bike: (string= target "foo" :end1 3)
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2015-06-21T21:45:11Z aeth: Bike: That breks on strings of 0-2 length
2015-06-21T21:45:15Z aeth: *breaks
2015-06-21T21:45:34Z aeth: AND doesn't.
2015-06-21T21:45:35Z Bike: (and (> (length target) 2) (string= target "foo" :end1 3))
2015-06-21T21:45:59Z aeth: If that's still faster than position
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2015-06-21T21:46:29Z Bike: length is constant time and string= is three accesses at constant positions
2015-06-21T21:46:55Z Bike: if your target is, say, "a shitload of characters fff" then you're searching pointlessly
2015-06-21T21:47:12Z aeth: I guess POSITION will be slow when #\f is at the end of a long string, yes
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2015-06-21T21:48:05Z aeth: (Actually I'm doing this for "gl_", not "foo")
2015-06-21T21:48:53Z aeth: It turns out that GLSL is perfectly camelcase except for gl_ prefixed functions
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2015-06-21T21:51:38Z Bike: if you're just doing short strings like identifiers in shaders you probably don't need to worry about performance too much
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2015-06-21T21:54:59Z aeth: Bike: Right, it's just stuff that will usually be on the startup of the program so time isn't that much of an issue
2015-06-21T21:55:30Z Bike: so i'd just use string= since it's easy to read
2015-06-21T21:55:49Z Bike: or do (defun prefix-p (target string) (and ...)) and never think about it again
2015-06-21T21:56:46Z aeth: well actually this conversion is run one other time, to access variables in the shader (through VAOs?)
2015-06-21T21:57:25Z aeth: But I could directly run cffi's camel case conversion there because you can't use the gl_ stuff there
2015-06-21T21:58:08Z aeth: (Yes I found that a library used by a library has exactly the function I need except for the gl_ non-camel-case part)
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2015-06-21T21:58:49Z aeth: So there
2015-06-21T21:59:13Z aeth: So there's actually two cases, one when it could be gl_ and one when it can't
2015-06-21T21:59:21Z Bike: there are c functions with the underscore?
2015-06-21T21:59:48Z aeth: Bike: gl no underscore are C API. gl_ are shader API. Always, no exceptions afaik
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2015-06-21T22:00:07Z aeth: Bike: but cffi has a camel case conversion function I can call
2015-06-21T22:00:18Z Bike: oh, i see.
2015-06-21T22:00:48Z aeth: I have to wrap it because for this one specific subset GLSL isn't strictly camelcase
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2015-06-21T22:01:07Z aeth: so gl_FooBar instead of the expected glFooBar
2015-06-21T22:02:24Z aeth: I insert a _ manually when "gl" is detected followed by an upper case (so "glow" or whatever won't trigger it) because CFFI makes it properly camelcase
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2015-06-21T22:04:02Z OxMLR: Any idea why GNU CLISP hasnt been updated in several years?
2015-06-21T22:04:18Z loke_: OxMLR: Because there are no maintainers doing new development on it.
2015-06-21T22:04:31Z loke_: OxMLR: I guess it's as close you can get to a "finished" project.
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2015-06-21T22:05:02Z aeth: Except for speed optimizations, bugs, etc.
2015-06-21T22:05:04Z OxMLR: Hmm. Seems like there is always room for improvement. Especially with performance
2015-06-21T22:05:05Z aeth: And porting.
2015-06-21T22:05:16Z Bike: so, the answer is mostly apathy.
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2015-06-21T22:05:27Z loke_: OxMLR: Yeah, but anyone caring about speed wouldn't be using CLISP in the first place.
2015-06-21T22:05:58Z OxMLR: what would they be using loke_ ?
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2015-06-21T22:06:02Z aeth: solution: make a CL2017 spec or something :P
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2015-06-21T22:06:42Z OxMLR: Very disheartening because it's the only CL i've seen that has REPL that has up and down arrow history like bash does :/
2015-06-21T22:06:56Z loke_: OxMLR: According my informal poll, SBCL. https://plus.google.com/+EliasMartenson/posts/7iZUUZXcuk5
2015-06-21T22:07:27Z nyef: Feel free to use rlwrap in conjunction with s
2015-06-21T22:07:27Z Bike: ccl's good too
2015-06-21T22:07:29Z nyef: SBCL.
2015-06-21T22:07:34Z nyef: Or use SLIME.
2015-06-21T22:08:23Z loke_: OxMLR: True enough, although the need for that is very small. Any serious Lisp developer would use SLIME or something equivalent anyway.
2015-06-21T22:08:27Z aeth: I use sbcl mostly, but nothing beats an REPL in the terminal when I need to write something quickly, especially when sshing in
2015-06-21T22:08:47Z Quadrescence: SSH into SLIME
2015-06-21T22:08:52Z Quadrescence: M-x slime-connect
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2015-06-21T22:09:05Z aeth: SLIME for development, but I don't leave it up 24/7 (leaving it up hides certain kinds of bugs anyway when renaming things, etc.)
2015-06-21T22:09:09Z Bike: yeah, that's pretty sweet. specially with tramp.
2015-06-21T22:09:33Z loke_: aeth: I leave it up 24/7, but I manually restart sometimes.
2015-06-21T22:09:47Z loke_: for that ver reason
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2015-06-21T22:12:05Z nyef: I tend to rlwrap my SBCL sessions.
2015-06-21T22:12:50Z aeth: nyef: Doesn't that relicense your local copy of sbcl to GPL while you're doing that?
2015-06-21T22:13:05Z nyef: I fail to see why it would.
2015-06-21T22:13:11Z Bike: you don't have to link rlwrap, just run it
2015-06-21T22:13:20Z aeth: otherwise all programs would wrap with rl
2015-06-21T22:13:25Z Bike: that's like saying screen has an infecious license
2015-06-21T22:13:32Z Bike: or bash
2015-06-21T22:13:35Z aeth: I use tmux :-p
2015-06-21T22:13:37Z nyef: It's a pty-based I/O filter, not something that gets linked into the address space, isn't it?
2015-06-21T22:14:26Z nyef: Failing that, the viral aspect of the GPL only applies when you redistribute the program.
2015-06-21T22:14:32Z aeth: true
2015-06-21T22:14:42Z aeth: good point
2015-06-21T22:15:03Z nyef: And since your actual programs don't require, use, or even look sideways at rlwrap...
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2015-06-21T22:15:11Z aeth: It's interesting how common screen/tmux are because they actually kind of cover up design flaw in e.g. an IRC client.
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2015-06-21T22:15:14Z Bike: bet there's someting funny with agpl, though
2015-06-21T22:15:51Z aeth: The design flaw is if something is persisting it should be a server (like emacs can be)
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2015-06-21T22:16:01Z aeth: A daemon, I mean
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2015-06-21T22:16:56Z aeth: I wonder why only emacs gets this
2015-06-21T22:17:02Z Bike: having one program for persistentification instead of every program having to do it itself is kinda nice
2015-06-21T22:17:22Z Bike: i'm vaguely aware that i can configure irssi to act as a server, but it's way easier to use it in screen like this. worse is better, baby
2015-06-21T22:17:37Z aeth: this is #lisp not #c
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2015-06-21T22:18:04Z aeth: On a new lispm there shouldn't be a screen/tmux, just daemons in individual programs
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2015-06-21T22:18:26Z aeth: The workaround of course would be the emacs-equivalent's daemon/client :-P
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2015-06-21T22:19:20Z aeth: actually, would a lispm do it differently than a daemon? that's unixy, isn't it?
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2015-06-21T22:20:40Z Bike: lispm's were usually single user, i don't think they paid much attention to this.
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2015-06-21T22:21:27Z aeth: Yeah, I'm talking about a reimagining of a lispm, which for better or worse would probably be more based on GNU emacs than lispm's in design
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2015-06-21T22:21:44Z aeth: Because more Lispers know emacs these days
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2015-06-21T22:43:03Z akkad: slime is nice
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2015-06-21T22:43:18Z akkad: Didn't franz drop their gui for emacs in 10?
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2015-06-21T23:05:50Z aeth: *ah*, now I know why "eq" is used in place of "=" so often
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2015-06-21T23:05:57Z aeth: because sometimes the answer is nil
2015-06-21T23:06:02Z aeth: In a lot of functions
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2015-06-21T23:09:57Z OxMLR: and eq catches nil values?
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2015-06-21T23:14:22Z aeth: OxMLR: yes, and if you use = it will say "Argument Y is not a NUMBER: NIL"
2015-06-21T23:14:37Z aeth: I'm actually not sure if there's something between = and eq
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2015-06-21T23:27:20Z phadthai: aeth: I'm not sure what you mean by "between", but maybe eql?
2015-06-21T23:27:38Z phadthai: see also equal, equalp
2015-06-21T23:28:01Z aeth: = is used on numbers, eq is used on symbols, nil, and numbers (and perhaps a few more things)
2015-06-21T23:28:47Z aeth: between would be (union numbers '(nil))
2015-06-21T23:28:56Z phadthai: it's implementation specific which numbers are eq
2015-06-21T23:29:26Z aeth: ugh
2015-06-21T23:29:32Z aeth: There needs to be a new spec imo
2015-06-21T23:29:56Z aeth: There's some other things that could use clarification/simplification, like path and unicode
2015-06-21T23:30:16Z phadthai: paths are especially odd heh
2015-06-21T23:30:19Z pjb: OxMLR: notice that clisp has only 70 open issues, while sbcl has more than 700 open issues.
2015-06-21T23:30:33Z pjb: OxMLR: this explains why there's less of a need for maintaince of clisp than of sbcl…
2015-06-21T23:31:30Z OxMLR: I suppose. I just think that it's weird that no one has fixed any of those open issues in 4/5/6 years
2015-06-21T23:32:43Z aeth: If CL ever had a "killer app" (like Rails, but not necessarily a web framework, anything really) then I suspect most of the issues would be closed.
2015-06-21T23:32:51Z aeth: CL doesn't seem to be getting that much recent attention, though
2015-06-21T23:33:08Z JuanDaugherty: not unusual for a lisp pkg on the way to stasis
2015-06-21T23:33:13Z pjb: There's a reason why tmux or screen are used for lisp servers, instead of daemonize: those utilities keep available the stdio REPL!
2015-06-21T23:33:26Z pjb: daemons don't have any stdio anymore.
2015-06-21T23:34:06Z aeth: pjb: but you can e.g. use emacsclient/SLIME for a REPL and I'm assuming emacsd is a daemon
2015-06-21T23:34:16Z aeth: so you can reimplement a way to do an REPL I guess
2015-06-21T23:34:31Z aeth: there might even be a library for it (there should be, right?)
2015-06-21T23:34:59Z pjb: (eq 1 1) --> nil  (= 1 1.0) --> t
2015-06-21T23:35:21Z aeth: pjb: you mean (eq 1 1.0), right?
2015-06-21T23:35:28Z pjb: No I meant that.
2015-06-21T23:35:32Z aeth: interesting
2015-06-21T23:35:36Z aeth: on sbcl, (eq 1 1) is T
2015-06-21T23:35:49Z pjb: aeth: never use eq on character or on numbers! because (eq 1 1) may be nil and (eq (1+ most-positive-fixnum) (1+ most-positive-fixnum)) will most probably be nil.
2015-06-21T23:36:03Z williamyao: Point being, that behavior is not guaranteed, since eq works purely on object equality
2015-06-21T23:36:06Z williamyao: clhs eq
2015-06-21T23:36:06Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq.htm
2015-06-21T23:36:14Z pjb: aeth: this is not #sbcl, this is #lisp.
2015-06-21T23:36:24Z pjb: use eql, not eq!
2015-06-21T23:37:01Z aeth: pjb: unfortunately one of the libraries I use doesn't work on clisp (or at least didn't last I checked), and thus ends my attempt to test my application on multiple CLs before it even really began seriously
2015-06-21T23:37:09Z pjb: equivalence operators are not "used on" some type or other.
2015-06-21T23:37:10Z aeth: I think it was cl-sdl2
2015-06-21T23:37:19Z pjb: they give some equivalence relationship.
2015-06-21T23:37:30Z pjb: (eql 1 1.0) -> nil is what you may be wanting!
2015-06-21T23:37:45Z pjb: while (= 1 1.0) -> t might be wrong for your algorithm.
2015-06-21T23:38:17Z aeth: well in this particular case, it was POSITION so it better only be returning (union integers '(nil))
2015-06-21T23:38:35Z aeth: not numbers, integers
2015-06-21T23:38:43Z pjb: aeth: these library problems are more often a problem with the libraries that are not written in conforming code (they use (eq 1 1) for example), than with implementations.
2015-06-21T23:38:44Z aeth: I'd hate to see what 1.1 is in "foobar"
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2015-06-21T23:39:21Z pjb: aeth: indeed, when testing the result of functions like position, you will prefer eql than = for the possible nil.
2015-06-21T23:39:39Z aeth: eql, ugh
2015-06-21T23:39:42Z aeth: I thought it was eq
2015-06-21T23:39:52Z aeth: I will never get the equals right in Lisp
2015-06-21T23:39:59Z pjb: never use eq.
2015-06-21T23:40:07Z aeth: even for symbols?
2015-06-21T23:40:12Z aeth: I thought eq was ok on symbols
2015-06-21T23:40:22Z pjb: eq is for 12th dan black belt lispers.  There's only one or two such lisper worldwide.
2015-06-21T23:40:55Z aeth: well some website somewhere inserted the idea of 'eq in my head very early on in my Common Lisp learning experience
2015-06-21T23:41:03Z aeth: and now I keep making that mistake even now
2015-06-21T23:42:02Z aeth: Object equality looks like... oh wow. Definitely not anything worth testing for because that requires knowing the inside of each CL implementation, which is basically impossible do do for all CLs
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2015-06-21T23:43:04Z aeth: pjb: Is eq even usable for just symbols?
2015-06-21T23:43:17Z Bike: eq is the same as eql except for characters and numbers.
2015-06-21T23:43:19Z pjb: Yes.  but eql would be better.
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2015-06-21T23:44:04Z pjb: all the CL functions use EQL by default (apart from GET, take good notice of it).
2015-06-21T23:44:39Z aeth: I think eq might be very, very, very, very slightly faster than eql for symbols
2015-06-21T23:44:45Z aeth: It would be interesting to test
2015-06-21T23:45:05Z aeth: If it's the case, it might be best to always use eql, but then if the code winds up only working on symbols, to change it to eq in the final code
2015-06-21T23:45:19Z Bike: implementation probably does that for you
2015-06-21T23:45:24Z aeth: ah
2015-06-21T23:45:45Z aeth: So basically, don't try to be more clever than a compiler?
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2015-06-21T23:46:06Z pjb: aeth: not even, since implementations can opencode any CL operator, it should not make any difference.
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2015-06-21T23:48:01Z phadthai: eq happens to work with symbols because symbols are "interned"; eq "identity" is like "the same instance" not an identical object; if you know C, it'd be like comparing two memory pointers there
2015-06-21T23:48:25Z aeth: Why is EQ even in the language?
2015-06-21T23:48:39Z Bike: For Speed
2015-06-21T23:48:51Z Bike: a lot of CL is written like it is so compilers can be really dumb.
2015-06-21T23:48:59Z pjb: to be able to detect if numbers are interned or not.
2015-06-21T23:49:17Z aeth: oh so if I write my own Lisp I should use EQ all over the place
2015-06-21T23:49:23Z aeth: because I don't think I'd write a good compiler :-p
2015-06-21T23:50:01Z pjb: no, you should write conforming code, so that you may easily compile your code with a better compiler.
2015-06-21T23:50:08Z aeth: Do you think EQ would be deprecated in a hypothetical CL20XX?
2015-06-21T23:50:15Z Bike: anyway, as an example of you not having to care, if sbcl sees a call to eql and knows that both arguments are chars, or that both arguments are not bignums, it'll replace it with char= or eq.
2015-06-21T23:50:27Z pjb: No. The point of CL is to be able to run programs written for other lisps!
2015-06-21T23:50:31Z pjb: It is a common lisp!
2015-06-21T23:50:38Z pjb: This is why it's named Common Lisp.
2015-06-21T23:50:56Z pjb: So since there are other lisps with EQ and programs using it, we keep it.
2015-06-21T23:50:56Z Bike: well, you could have the new CL do (defun eq (x y) (eql x y)), and then all conforming CL code would work
2015-06-21T23:51:26Z pjb: If you think otherwise, then you're dreaming about scheme r42rs (or just r7rs, try it).
2015-06-21T23:51:44Z pjb: Bike: admitedly.
2015-06-21T23:52:00Z aeth: Bike: interesting
2015-06-21T23:52:18Z aeth: if nothing relies on the difference between eq and eql while using eq
2015-06-21T23:52:55Z pjb: aeth:  Notice that even: (let ((x 1)) (eq x x)) can return nil.
2015-06-21T23:53:07Z pjb: So indeed, nothing can rely on that difference :-)
2015-06-21T23:53:21Z aeth: pjb: oh, that's assuming good code, though
2015-06-21T23:53:30Z aeth: pjb: maybe someone uses a conditional that uses that to test which Lisp it's using
2015-06-21T23:53:40Z pjb: aeth: this let means that numbers may be copied when passed as arguments.
2015-06-21T23:53:43Z Bike: god, i hope not. that's sick.
2015-06-21T23:54:24Z Bike: and still nonconforming, so as long as i'm writing a magical new standard i don't have to care! yaaaaay
2015-06-21T23:54:28Z phadthai: aeth: although there are better means like *features*
2015-06-21T23:55:00Z aeth: Bike: well a magical new standard could define eq to be equivalent to eql
2015-06-21T23:55:09Z aeth: Bike: i.e. literally your example, made standard
2015-06-21T23:55:47Z aeth: but I could've sworn somewhere I read to use EQ for symbols
2015-06-21T23:56:11Z Bike: it seriously doesn't matter. you could define eq as "eql, but undefined on numbers and characers"
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2015-06-21T23:56:47Z Bike: really, even if it was faster, because your compiler was dumb, the difference would be negligible.
2015-06-21T23:57:22Z aeth: phadthai: yes, but I've seen code (fortunately not in Lisp) that ignores about half a dozen better ways to do what it's trying to do
2015-06-21T23:58:05Z aeth: and instead abuses language features in ways that are quite creative
2015-06-21T23:58:21Z aeth: So there are definitely ways to abuse eq, I bet
2015-06-21T23:58:37Z aeth: *features* looks interesting
2015-06-21T23:58:58Z Bike: well like pjb said you could use it to get an idea of when you can have = numbers that are distinct in memory. but that would be terrible.
2015-06-22T00:00:30Z phadthai: I use EQ as an optimization where I really want to compare the identity, or where I want the code to be specific that equality is what is being tested
2015-06-22T00:01:15Z phadthai: err that identity is what is being tested :)
2015-06-22T00:04:47Z phadthai: aeth: hmm I've written some implementation-specific code too, it might or might not be productive in the long run of course... if the code is published, others might have a hard time porting it; and if the implementation "dies" then you must maintain it yourself
2015-06-22T00:05:42Z aeth: I'm writing to sbcl, which is probably like writing to gcc
2015-06-22T00:05:44Z phadthai: unlikely with sbcl, but I was targetting ecl (not really dead, but it's still less popular)
2015-06-22T00:06:04Z aeth: it might hurt with porting to Windows
2015-06-22T00:06:08Z aeth: idk how good sbcl is on Windows
2015-06-22T00:06:36Z Bike: just avoid targeting a particular implementation if you can avoid it
2015-06-22T00:07:35Z aeth is testing to see if it runs on clisp now
2015-06-22T00:08:06Z aeth: wow apparently quicklisp takes a long time the first time it's run to download all of the libraries
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2015-06-22T00:08:28Z phadthai: the two aspects which made ecl attractive for me were that it's based on C so C FFI and shared linkable objects are nice on a unix-like environment, and it supports threads where sbcl doesn't (or didn't) like on BSD
2015-06-22T00:08:33Z aeth: no, it definitely breaks during cl-sdl2 when I do (ql:quickload 'sdl2) in clisp
2015-06-22T00:08:48Z aeth: it looks like it might actually break in sdl2-examples
2015-06-22T00:08:54Z Bike: well, sdl2 probably uses cffi and stuff
2015-06-22T00:08:58Z aeth: yes
2015-06-22T00:09:33Z Bike: huh, it also uses cairo.
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2015-06-22T00:10:28Z aeth: http://paste.lisp.org/display/150305
2015-06-22T00:11:02Z Bike: looks like some horrible shit with structs by value.
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2015-06-22T00:13:37Z aeth: Unfortunately I'm stuck writing ot just sbcl unless I want to (1) fork and then submit patches (which might be substantial, idk) to sdl2, (2) write my own sdl2 library, (3) use an older sdl, or (4) write my own SDL clone in pure Common Lisp. None of those sound particularly easy or fun, especially because I have never used CFFI directly before
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2015-06-22T00:15:26Z aeth: s/ot/to
2015-06-22T00:15:55Z aeth: and 4 would probably be the hardest
2015-06-22T00:19:25Z Bike: 1 is bugfixing, so i mean, that'd be the way to go.
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2015-06-22T00:19:29Z Bike: i'd worry about ccl before clisp tho.
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2015-06-22T00:28:32Z aeth: Technically 4 is the most portable and so the most proper way to go
2015-06-22T00:28:43Z aeth: Rewriting something in CL
2015-06-22T00:29:04Z Bike: you'd have to call out to wgl or glx or whatever anyway
2015-06-22T00:29:36Z aeth: Yes but that's 1 dependency
2015-06-22T00:30:07Z aeth: and more likely to be used/tested
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2015-06-22T00:37:42Z pjb: Of course, you can use eq to compare symbols.  But since that restrict your objects to non-number or characters, this makes your code less generic.  What if suddently you want to identify things with numbers instead of symbols?  I prefer to write more generic code, than more optimized code, in general.
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2015-06-22T00:42:09Z aeth: Bike: Besides not all OSes will necessarily have GL implemented in C
2015-06-22T00:42:24Z aeth: Maybe someone will make a 3D capable toy lisp OS
2015-06-22T00:42:44Z Bike: considering how the types are that seems mighty annoying
2015-06-22T00:43:15Z Bike: well, i guess it wouldn't be wgl or glx anyway. more like clx. which already exists.
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2015-06-22T01:18:01Z aeth: clx?
2015-06-22T01:18:26Z Bike: the common lisp library to mess with x.
2015-06-22T01:18:32Z aeth: ah
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2015-06-22T01:18:47Z aeth: Is anything useful written in it?
2015-06-22T01:18:55Z Bike: stumpwm.
2015-06-22T01:19:01Z aeth: ah
2015-06-22T01:19:18Z aeth: could CLIM be ported to it?
2015-06-22T01:19:23Z Bike: the main interesting thing about it is that it was written alongside the C library for X-dealing, since that was when the protocol happened
2015-06-22T01:19:38Z Bike: the code's somewhat rotten, though. i mean it works, but it's full of 80s idioms
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2015-06-22T01:21:47Z Bike: clim already has a clx backend.
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2015-06-22T01:23:37Z Bike: well, mcclim does.
2015-06-22T01:27:23Z nyef: CLX is a defined backend in the CLIM II spec.
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2015-06-22T01:27:54Z nyef: nq-clim has a CLX backend... And not much of a frontend yet.
2015-06-22T01:28:13Z pjb: McCLIM uses CLX.
2015-06-22T01:28:22Z pjb: Hemlock too.
2015-06-22T01:28:29Z pjb: Garnet, of course.
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2015-06-22T01:36:24Z aeth: CLIM II?
2015-06-22T01:36:43Z aeth: also, if CLX is for X, what is for Wayland?
2015-06-22T01:36:56Z pjb: CLWayland of course :-)
2015-06-22T01:37:42Z failproofshark: if I define a struct using cffi's defcstruct how do I instantiate a struct of that type? is it through foreign-alloc?
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2015-06-22T01:38:06Z pjb: like in C, foreign-alloc, indeed.
2015-06-22T01:38:27Z pjb: failproofshark: if you use cffi, you're reduced to C stuff.  It's not pretty.
2015-06-22T01:38:49Z failproofshark: pjb: i see, thank you
2015-06-22T01:39:23Z failproofshark: i might just have to write a compatibility layer in c (e.g. write a function in C that creates the struct and returns a pointer)
2015-06-22T01:39:26Z failproofshark: might be easier...
2015-06-22T01:39:57Z nyef: aeth: There have been two major versions of CLIM, aside from the Dynamic Windows stuff and the even earlier Lisp UI frameworks.
2015-06-22T01:41:22Z pjb: Well, you can write it in CL with foreign-alloc, so why would you want to write it in C?
2015-06-22T01:41:40Z nyef: Grr... Using REQUIRE to load stuff muffles style warnings?
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2015-06-22T01:46:03Z nyef: Okay, using ASDF:LOAD-OP instead helps.
2015-06-22T01:50:11Z aeth: What uses CLIM II?
2015-06-22T01:50:35Z nyef: McCLIM is supposed to implement CLIM II, to some extent.
2015-06-22T01:51:07Z nyef: That said, the CLIM II spec is... rather fundamentally broken, in places.
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2015-06-22T02:16:42Z aeth: ah
2015-06-22T02:18:07Z aeth: http://cliki.net/Lisp+Books
2015-06-22T02:18:24Z aeth: I like how CLIM II's link is broken. http://www.csl.sri.com/users/gilham/clim/cover.html
2015-06-22T02:19:11Z aeth: this seems to be it: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/index.html
2015-06-22T02:19:44Z aeth: It looks like there is something that claims to be CLIM3 on Github
2015-06-22T02:19:49Z aeth: https://github.com/robert-strandh/CLIMatis/tree/master/CLIM3-Specification
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2015-06-22T02:24:29Z nyef: Yes, that's beach's CLIM3.
2015-06-22T02:24:59Z nyef: And yes, that (the bauhh link) is the current known copy of the CLIM II spec.
2015-06-22T02:25:31Z aeth: oh good it looks like there's a focus on localization and internationalization
2015-06-22T02:25:45Z aeth: https://github.com/robert-strandh/CLIMatis/blob/master/CLIM3-Specification/chap-changes-from-clim-ii.tex
2015-06-22T02:25:47Z nyef: There are... issues with the CLIM II spec, though. Both subtle issues and big, glaring problems.
2015-06-22T02:26:45Z aeth: oh wow the same user also wrote an OS. convenient. https://github.com/robert-strandh/LispOS
2015-06-22T02:27:20Z nyef: That's... not a full OS.
2015-06-22T02:27:23Z aeth: just documentation... so is it like a linux distro in that it is just a collection of other packages, or is it not written yet?
2015-06-22T02:27:29Z Bike: he wrote out plans for one,t hat's about it
2015-06-22T02:27:38Z Bike: beach has a lot of big plans.
2015-06-22T02:27:40Z nyef: It's a rough plan for how to go about it.
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2015-06-22T02:32:28Z aeth: there's apparently a huge (incomplete) Lisp there too. https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2015-06-22T02:32:34Z aeth: interesting collection of software
2015-06-22T02:32:46Z aeth: nyef: are you working on a CLIM?
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2015-06-22T02:33:00Z Bike: beach ahs been working on cleavir, a lisp compiler. it seems pretty far along.
2015-06-22T02:33:24Z nyef: aeth: Yes, NQ-CLIM.
2015-06-22T02:33:35Z aeth: nyef: CLIM3 or CLIM2(ish)?
2015-06-22T02:34:00Z nyef: CLIM II-ish, but I gave myself license to ignore the specification wherever I feel that it doesn't make sense.
2015-06-22T02:34:39Z aeth: makes sense
2015-06-22T02:34:56Z OxMLR: is it likely that cmucl and sbcl will ever merge?
2015-06-22T02:35:10Z Bike: why would they?
2015-06-22T02:35:17Z nyef: Mmm. Why would they?
2015-06-22T02:35:51Z aeth: hmm... I think I've found the problem with CL
2015-06-22T02:35:55Z OxMLR: In the footnotes of Pratical common Lisp it mentions that it's a possibility and that it's been discussed before
2015-06-22T02:36:21Z aeth: The problem with CL is that there's a lot of cool things somewhere between 1% and 90% implemented.
2015-06-22T02:36:46Z pillton: aeth: That isn't specific to CL, or programming languages.
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2015-06-22T02:36:59Z nyef: OxMLR: What's more likely is that Raymond Toy will eventually give up on CMUCL for whatever reason. Or he'll remain the last maintainer for some number of years.
2015-06-22T02:37:13Z aeth: Sorry... s/cool things/necessary things/
2015-06-22T02:37:35Z nyef: CLIM is not a necessary thing for most people.
2015-06-22T02:38:07Z aeth: well apparently the bindings for stuff like GTK and Qt are not that great, unless that's changed in the past year
2015-06-22T02:38:14Z aeth: last time I asked here. Maybe it was 2 years ago
2015-06-22T02:38:28Z Bike: shinmera's been working hard on the latter, i think
2015-06-22T02:38:32Z aeth: yes, it's true that CLIM isn't necessary, but something like that is
2015-06-22T02:39:04Z pillton: There is no absolute definition of necessary. People will work on what they want to.
2015-06-22T02:39:46Z aeth: ok, sorry, necessary for a given project, if that given project is GUI-related rather than related to e.g. web servers
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2015-06-22T02:43:24Z nyef: Okay, yes, the Open Source Common Lisp GUI situation is pretty bad, and has been for quite a while.
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2015-06-22T02:49:26Z cluck: everybody wants to love mcclim but it's like loving a stillbirth, you're never going to see it graduate or getting a job
2015-06-22T02:49:30Z cluck: :(
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2015-06-22T02:52:30Z pjb: aeth: you're wonderful!  Having identified the problem of Common Lisp, now you can provide the solution: Take a cool thing, implement it to 100%, repeat.
2015-06-22T02:53:06Z pjb: aeth: without you, we may have never found the solution to the problem with CL.  You're my hero!
2015-06-22T02:53:52Z pjb: aeth: so what cool thing are you going to implement 100%?  I can't wait to use it!
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2015-06-22T03:09:56Z aeth: pjb: maybe I should follow the Unix philosophy and write one thing that does one thing well
2015-06-22T03:10:10Z aeth: pjb: maybe tail and head or something. Then I can implement it 100%
2015-06-22T03:11:35Z aeth: ok maybe it's not as trivial as it seems. 1080 lines for head.c: https://github.com/coreutils/coreutils/blob/b9842a615366b47cbd0739d97f2dd2679dfbb3a8/src/head.c
2015-06-22T03:12:04Z aeth: at least I correctly guessed that head and tail are one program
2015-06-22T03:12:33Z aeth: oh nope wait, 2361 lines tail.c: https://github.com/coreutils/coreutils/blob/aee982627874e9719bc151007b7e0144edd3963e/src/tail.c
2015-06-22T03:12:45Z akkad: uiop seems to get corrupt in ql with allegro. https://gist.github.com/c80073c614a54a0f9300
2015-06-22T03:12:48Z akkad: If I remove it and retry it works.
2015-06-22T03:14:22Z aeth: I missed "Unfortunately, factoring out some common core looks like it'd result in a less efficient implementation or a messy interface" in head.c line 635
2015-06-22T03:15:41Z Bike: i once watched a bunch of nerds figure out how to make GNU false return true for three days. it was entertaining and kind of educational
2015-06-22T03:16:11Z Bike: iirc making GNU true return false is easy, you just have it run out of memory or something
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2015-06-22T03:18:19Z aeth: interesting, I just typed "man false" and it does not, in fact, have an option that makes it return true
2015-06-22T03:18:35Z Bike: oh, no, this wasn't an option, this was them doing horrid things
2015-06-22T03:18:40Z Bike: i think they settled on an evil locale file
2015-06-22T03:18:43Z aeth: yes, I know, but this is GNU's false
2015-06-22T03:18:58Z aeth: GNU usually adds lots of options for convenience
2015-06-22T03:19:08Z Bike: Do Many Things Okay
2015-06-22T03:19:44Z nyef: Ah, yes, the GNU philosophy... Swords into Plowshares?
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2015-06-22T03:20:09Z nyef: (Taking the small, sharp tools, and turning them into blunt instruments)
2015-06-22T03:20:41Z aeth: you should be able to do everything with every tool just in case someone does rm -rf / on your system and you stop it half way through
2015-06-22T03:21:04Z nyef: Can GNU rm read mail yet?
2015-06-22T03:21:14Z aeth: lol
2015-06-22T03:21:21Z Bike: oh, now i remember. /bin/true --version >/dev/full
2015-06-22T03:21:31Z Bike: = 1.
2015-06-22T03:21:47Z nyef: ... Why does /bin/true take command-line arguments?
2015-06-22T03:21:59Z Bike: In case you need to know the version of your true! Obviously.
2015-06-22T03:22:09Z pjb: because you want to be able to use it in replacement of another command.
2015-06-22T03:22:21Z aeth: the best thing is it doesn't even work
2015-06-22T03:22:25Z pjb: cmd=true ; $cmd -o a.o -c a.c
2015-06-22T03:22:33Z Bike: Mine actually doesn't say what the version is, other than a copyright date and who wrote it.
2015-06-22T03:22:55Z aeth: I've tried true --help and true --version in zsh, bash, sh, and dash and none of them return the status like in man true
2015-06-22T03:23:04Z Bike: that's because the shell has its own true
2015-06-22T03:23:04Z aeth: s/status/version
2015-06-22T03:23:09Z Bike: which is probably noted in your man page
2015-06-22T03:23:10Z aeth: All of them?
2015-06-22T03:23:14Z Bike: probably
2015-06-22T03:23:20Z Bike: that's why i used /bin/true explicitly
2015-06-22T03:23:26Z aeth: ah, yes, there it is, /usr/bin/true
2015-06-22T03:23:56Z Bike: $(which true) --version, fixed
2015-06-22T03:24:28Z aeth: /usr/bin/true --help explains to run it with /usr/bin/true and that I can get --help and --version
2015-06-22T03:24:42Z aeth: of course I must first run it with /usr/bin/true to find out that I must run it with /usr/bin/true
2015-06-22T03:24:56Z Bike: oh, that's probably just printing argv[0].
2015-06-22T03:25:50Z aeth: hmm, how does Lisp handle command line arguments by default?
2015-06-22T03:26:01Z Bike: doesn't, it's an implementation thing
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2015-06-22T03:26:26Z Bike: there are a few portability libraries i think
2015-06-22T03:27:28Z nyef: Keeping in mind that the Lisp standard was hugely influenced by certain implementations which don't interact with a unix command line in any meaningful way.
2015-06-22T03:27:47Z Bike: or with any command line outside of themselves.
2015-06-22T03:27:47Z XachX: it's not clear unix will catch on
2015-06-22T03:29:10Z pjb: Do Android, iOS or even MacOSX have command lines?
2015-06-22T03:29:34Z aeth: yes, actually
2015-06-22T03:29:37Z Bike: osx has terminal, certainly, and you can get one in android
2015-06-22T03:29:37Z pjb: And what about the next version of Microsoft Windows?
2015-06-22T03:29:42Z pjb: (just to name a few OSes with unix kernels).
2015-06-22T03:29:54Z aeth: I can use my ssh program to connect to localhost and access a terminal within Android, but because my phone isn't rooted just about every command is forbidden iirc
2015-06-22T03:29:57Z aeth: even e.g. ls
2015-06-22T03:29:58Z Bike: windows has different conventions anyway, that's probably more of an issue.
2015-06-22T03:30:01Z nyef: For Android, you can get an add-on for a terminal fairly easily, OSX has one by default...
2015-06-22T03:30:49Z aeth: who needs Windows ports?
2015-06-22T03:30:50Z aeth: :-p
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2015-06-22T03:31:11Z pjb: aeth: Microsoft will produce a linux distribution with Windows GUI.
2015-06-22T03:31:16Z nyef: I certainly don't. Haven't needed a windows port of SBCL in years. (-:
2015-06-22T03:31:34Z Bike: you people and your not needing to support dos applications or something
2015-06-22T03:31:40Z pjb: The Windows kernel is dead.
2015-06-22T03:32:54Z aeth: Oh I can run DOS applications very well, actually
2015-06-22T03:33:02Z aeth: DOSBox
2015-06-22T03:33:14Z Bike: yes, yes. it's a joke. i like complaining about my job. borland delphi 5.
2015-06-22T03:33:22Z aeth: It's funny because even old games they sell you on Steam, etc., use DOXBox these days
2015-06-22T03:33:50Z Bike: it just kind of weirds me out when y'all programmer types are just like ha ha windows, who needs it.
2015-06-22T03:33:50Z aeth: Common Lisp is old enough. Is there still a version that supports DOS?
2015-06-22T03:34:04Z aeth: I can try to test some of my applications on that ancient Lisp and DOSBox
2015-06-22T03:34:06Z Bike: throw movitz in a com file, call it good
2015-06-22T03:34:08Z pjb: Yes, Corman Lisp.
2015-06-22T03:34:15Z aeth: oh good
2015-06-22T03:34:16Z aeth: Portability
2015-06-22T03:34:23Z pjb: aeth: also, old versions of clisp.
2015-06-22T03:34:35Z Bike: what, they dropped support?
2015-06-22T03:34:38Z pjb: yep.
2015-06-22T03:34:43Z Bike: terrible, terrible.
2015-06-22T03:35:35Z nyef: Bike: Oh, SOME people need windows, but I shall be very upset if I ever need anything more recent than XP.
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2015-06-22T03:45:17Z aeth: pjb: Do you have concrete information about Microsoft switching to a Linux distribution, though?
2015-06-22T03:45:58Z Bike: they're going to revive xenix
2015-06-22T03:46:22Z pjb: http://itsfoss.com/microsoft-announces-linux-os/
2015-06-22T03:46:58Z aeth: pjb: oh wow that article's pretty recent... as recent as early April. I must have missed it
2015-06-22T03:47:17Z nyef: Heh. Yeah, nice date on that article.
2015-06-22T03:47:33Z aeth: Announced on the anniversary of Gmail's launch
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2015-06-22T03:50:33Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-06-22T03:50:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-06-22T03:51:07Z aeth: I found https://github.com/robert-strandh/CLIMatis/blob/master/CLIM3-Specification/chap-changes-from-clim-ii.tex searching for clim ii on Google
2015-06-22T03:51:12Z nyef: ... And that's the mirrored-sheet-mixin stuff sorted, I hope.
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2015-06-22T03:51:44Z aeth: so there's really not much on CLIM II online, I guess
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2015-06-22T03:51:58Z beach: aeth: The spec is online.
2015-06-22T03:52:05Z aeth: yes
2015-06-22T03:52:14Z beach: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/index.html
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2015-06-22T03:52:31Z nyef: There's also the Allegro and Lispworks CLIM documentation, they're somewhat-edited versions of the spec.
2015-06-22T03:52:33Z aeth: for me, the clim 3 github is almost as high as the clim2 spec
2015-06-22T03:52:44Z aeth: although interestingly enough the order changed completely now that I am searching it again
2015-06-22T03:52:46Z drmeister_: Hey everybody!
2015-06-22T03:52:47Z aeth: with the spec at top
2015-06-22T03:53:29Z beach: Hello drmeister_.
2015-06-22T03:54:10Z drmeister_: I'm in Florida, so there's an extra _ in my nickname for some reason.
2015-06-22T03:54:26Z brucem: drmeister_: that's your feet kicking back on the beach.
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2015-06-22T03:54:35Z beach: Might be a surf board.
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2015-06-22T03:54:58Z drmeister_: Or the alligators coming for my toes.
2015-06-22T03:55:50Z drmeister_: I'm right next to Disney World.  I can see Epcot center from my room.  Where I'm holed up writing a grant proposal to create molecules to treat brain cancer.
2015-06-22T03:56:13Z aeth: You don't have to fear alligators that much. Crocodiles, yes.
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2015-06-22T03:56:47Z drmeister_: beach: How is source tracking going? Do you have any new thoughts on how to communicate source position information to MIR instructions?
2015-06-22T03:57:04Z beach: That part is easy.
2015-06-22T03:57:15Z drmeister_: Excellent.
2015-06-22T03:57:32Z drmeister_: Does that imply that there is a hard part that I'm not aware of?
2015-06-22T03:58:22Z beach: drmeister_: Nothing you need to worry about.  It is a bit hard to do well with macro expansion.
2015-06-22T03:58:28Z beach: But I'll try my best.
2015-06-22T03:58:37Z drmeister_: Oh, that.  Yes, that is a tricky one.
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2015-06-22T03:59:10Z beach: It is possible to do a decent job.
2015-06-22T03:59:18Z drmeister_: Even if you just stamp the source location of the source onto every node of the macro expansion - I would be happy with it.
2015-06-22T03:59:25Z beach: Just track what sub-expressions are EQ before and after.
2015-06-22T03:59:49Z beach: The problem is with symbols.
2015-06-22T03:59:53Z nyef: ILTWYS"J"
2015-06-22T04:00:03Z beach: nyef: Thanks! :)
2015-06-22T04:00:16Z drmeister_: Huh?
2015-06-22T04:00:35Z beach: "Huh?" what?
2015-06-22T04:00:47Z nyef: drmeister_: Old #lisp-ism. ``I Love The Way You Say "Just"''.
2015-06-22T04:00:59Z drmeister_: I see.
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2015-06-22T04:01:53Z beach: nyef: OK, maybe not trivial, but at least it is straightforward.
2015-06-22T04:01:56Z aeth: source tracking?
2015-06-22T04:02:19Z nyef: aeth: In the context of a compiler producing information for use by a debugger.
2015-06-22T04:02:26Z aeth: ah
2015-06-22T04:03:11Z drmeister_: beach: Just to encourage you that your efforts are appreciated and anticipated - I have been going nuts trying to debug Cleavir generated code for Slime.
2015-06-22T04:03:38Z beach: Got it.
2015-06-22T04:03:47Z drmeister_: No pressure, just encouragement.
2015-06-22T04:03:59Z drmeister_: Rah rah rah!
2015-06-22T04:04:37Z beach: Like water off a duck's back.
2015-06-22T04:04:55Z beach: :)
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2015-06-22T04:05:04Z drmeister_: Yeah, it's passive aggressive.  I'm a desperate man.
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2015-06-22T04:05:20Z beach: You are taking a big risk though.
2015-06-22T04:05:39Z beach: I have already told you that when I feel there is something I have to do, I lose all interest in it.
2015-06-22T04:05:45Z drmeister_: Which one of the several dozen risks that I'm taking are you talking about?
2015-06-22T04:06:11Z beach: That one ^.
2015-06-22T04:06:29Z drmeister_: Oh that one.
2015-06-22T04:06:36Z nyef: The main risk would be that beach spends the next month or more doing anything and everything but work on the source location tracking.
2015-06-22T04:06:50Z beach: Exactly!
2015-06-22T04:07:14Z drmeister_: Well, Cleavir is going to need source location tracking and I'm enthusiastic about using it.  What's the problem.  You work at your pace.  I'll work on something else.
2015-06-22T04:07:40Z beach: That's the spirit!
2015-06-22T04:07:55Z beach: You are a quick learner.
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2015-06-22T04:11:16Z drmeister_: Well, I'm also curious about how you are going about implementing it (hence my first question) because I could prepare to integrate it.
2015-06-22T04:13:20Z beach: drmeister_: As far as client code is concerned, whatever you supplied as answers to begin/end-source (or whatever I called it) will be available to an accessor of HIR/MIR.
2015-06-22T04:14:00Z beach: drmeister_: I have no intention of trying to interpret what client code supplies.  Just make sure it follows the entire translation chain.
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2015-06-22T04:15:16Z drmeister_: Ok, that's easy.  What are you going to call it?  source-location?
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2015-06-22T04:16:49Z beach: ORIGIN.  It is shorter.
2015-06-22T04:17:12Z drmeister_: And then what are you going to do with macros?   Say you have a simple single macro/expansion line (defmacro foo () `(print "Hello"))  (foo)   Does the source info for (foo) get stamped onto the generated code from the macro?
2015-06-22T04:17:52Z beach: The general idea is to identify the parts of the expansion that came from the arguments to the macro.
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2015-06-22T04:18:27Z drmeister_: In bclasp I set the source info for the CONS (print "Hello") to the source info for (foo).
2015-06-22T04:18:51Z beach: Makes sense.
2015-06-22T04:19:25Z drmeister_: I still seem to generate a lot of code that doesn't have source info attached to it though.
2015-06-22T04:19:50Z drmeister_: There are so many macros in CL and macros that contain macros and so on.
2015-06-22T04:19:51Z beach: Sure.  For one thing, you don't track atoms.
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2015-06-22T04:20:33Z drmeister_: I don't - your current API doesn't appear to either.
2015-06-22T04:20:45Z beach: It does if client code does.
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2015-06-22T04:21:05Z beach: There is nothing in the API that restricts it to CONSes.
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2015-06-22T04:22:38Z drmeister_: Ok, I see.   Still I don't see how you would track much else.
2015-06-22T04:22:46Z beach: I know.
2015-06-22T04:22:58Z beach: But I plan to do it for SICL, so the API allows it.
2015-06-22T04:23:09Z drmeister_: How will you do it for SICL?
2015-06-22T04:23:44Z beach: I will use something other than an EQ hash table mapping expressions to source locations.
2015-06-22T04:24:10Z beach: This is why there is begin/end.
2015-06-22T04:24:35Z beach: So that I can track a particular occurrence of an atom inside a compound expression.
2015-06-22T04:24:35Z drmeister_: Hmm, I'll have to think on that.
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2015-06-22T04:25:32Z drmeister_: I see.  So in (foo 1)   it's the '1' in the CONS (foo 1) ?
2015-06-22T04:25:40Z beach: Right.
2015-06-22T04:25:54Z drmeister_: I think I could do that.
2015-06-22T04:27:37Z drmeister_: I'll have to think on that.  I don't really see how I would construct a key based on the context of an atom.
2015-06-22T04:28:25Z drmeister_: #(1 2 3 #(4 5 6 #(7 8 9)))   Describing the 9 will require some work.
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2015-06-22T04:31:40Z drmeister_: What about the new code that is generated? What origin would you give it?
2015-06-22T04:33:00Z drmeister_: Sorry about all the questions.  I implemented code to do all of this for bclasp and I'm wondering how I could do better.
2015-06-22T04:33:02Z beach: I don't know.
2015-06-22T04:33:21Z beach: You gave me a month to do it.
2015-06-22T04:34:37Z beach: With respect to describing the 9, you could do better by just keeping a list of all occurrences for a particular atom.
2015-06-22T04:35:22Z beach: Most of the time, the occurrence of an atom will be in a sub-interval of the compound form that it is in.
2015-06-22T04:35:43Z drmeister_: Yeesh. I have to think on that.
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2015-06-22T04:36:20Z beach: Things like #n= and #n# complicate things a bit. :)
2015-06-22T04:36:31Z beach: Even for CONSes.
2015-06-22T04:37:03Z drmeister_: Anyway, any deadlines I might have mentioned don't apply to anyone but me.
2015-06-22T04:38:00Z beach: I am thinking SICL source tracking info might have an indirection for that case; give the location of the #n# and keep a pointer to what follows #n=.
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2015-06-22T04:39:15Z drmeister_: Is the SICL reader complete?   I recall spending a lot of time reading the source code when I wrote mine in C++.
2015-06-22T04:39:31Z beach: No, it is not complete.
2015-06-22T04:39:46Z beach: I have a "simple" reader without source tracking at the moment.
2015-06-22T04:40:03Z beach: I am also working on a "fast" reader, but it is even less complete.
2015-06-22T04:40:35Z beach: But you wouldn't want the SICL reader anyway at this point.
2015-06-22T04:40:46Z beach: You need to make sure you add a single feature at a time.
2015-06-22T04:41:01Z beach: Or else, you will spend a lot of time finding bugs.
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2015-06-22T04:41:29Z beach: You will never know whether it is in Cleavir, in Clasp method combination, in the SICL reader, or what.
2015-06-22T04:42:18Z beach: I know you preferably want everything right now, but I don't think that's a good idea.
2015-06-22T04:42:30Z drmeister_: You keep telling me stuff like that, I fix 20 bugs a day, I know about changing one thing at a time.
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2015-06-22T04:42:55Z beach: OK.  Sorry about that.
2015-06-22T04:43:52Z beach: I need to vanish for a while.  Monday mornings are crazy around here.
2015-06-22T04:44:09Z drmeister_: Talk to you later.
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2015-06-22T06:42:26Z akkad: there is a bay area lisp user group
2015-06-22T06:42:39Z smokeink: http://www.daansystems.com/brokenvow/
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2015-06-22T06:43:43Z jackdaniel: no downloads yet
2015-06-22T06:44:25Z jackdaniel: neither screenshoots as far as I can tell
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2015-06-22T06:52:16Z akkad: clasp work on osx?
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2015-06-22T07:04:13Z Shinmera: Yes
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2015-06-22T07:04:27Z akkad: k. thanks
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2015-06-22T07:16:43Z loz: smokeink: great link, thanks!
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2015-06-22T07:41:50Z kami: Bike: thank you for that regex link
2015-06-22T07:42:29Z kami: Do you know of any CL implementation?
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2015-06-22T12:03:23Z loz: like, wow:
2015-06-22T12:03:23Z loz: (last (last (last '(((1 2 3)))))) -> (((1 2 3)))
2015-06-22T12:03:56Z nyef: Umm... Yeah, so?
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2015-06-22T12:04:14Z nyef: LAST on a "singleton list" returns its input.
2015-06-22T12:04:37Z loz: nyef: how should i get last _element_ then?
2015-06-22T12:04:56Z nyef: It IS the last element, by definition. What are you actually trying to do here?
2015-06-22T12:05:11Z jackdaniel: (last (caaar lst))
2015-06-22T12:05:14Z loz: em
2015-06-22T12:05:22Z Baggers: (defun last1 (x) (car (last x)))
2015-06-22T12:05:27Z loz: last element of '((1 2 3)) is '(1 2 3), no?
2015-06-22T12:05:28Z H4ns: loz: more often than not, trying to get the last element of a list indicates that you're using the wrong data structure.
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2015-06-22T12:05:56Z kami: Good afternoon.
2015-06-22T12:06:02Z nyef: loz: LAST returns the LIST containing the last element, not the last element itself.
2015-06-22T12:06:33Z loz: H4ns: just destructuring what xmls returned
2015-06-22T12:06:34Z nyef: (Alternately, it returns the last CONS in the list.)
2015-06-22T12:06:57Z loz: ye, i got it, buy there is a function which returns last element, not cons?
2015-06-22T12:07:00Z loz: but*
2015-06-22T12:07:06Z nyef: Ah. Your first mistake was touching XML with anything other than a ten-foot snide remark.
2015-06-22T12:07:30Z loz: i would be glad to never touch it
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2015-06-22T12:07:51Z jackdaniel: loz: such function is what Baggers said
2015-06-22T12:08:25Z loz: Baggers: jackdaniel that makes sense, thank you
2015-06-22T12:08:55Z Baggers: if you know the structure you can also use destructuring bind, though it looks a bit funky (destructuring-bind (((x y z))) '(((1 2 3))) z) -> 3
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2015-06-22T12:09:44Z Baggers: You also may want to look at a pattern matching library like optima
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2015-06-22T12:10:36Z loz: i'm using optima for structured things
2015-06-22T12:10:44Z Baggers: loz: cool
2015-06-22T12:11:14Z loz: btw, can i have anything like optima to dispatch generic methods?
2015-06-22T12:12:12Z loz: to specialize, i would say
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2015-06-22T12:15:00Z digiorgi: i want to ask another time here... how do you make gui in common lisp? Because there isn't any good library out there
2015-06-22T12:15:39Z Shinmera: Same answer as before: CommonQt, Qtools, websites.
2015-06-22T12:15:55Z jackdaniel: digiorgi: Shinmera works on qtools and parasol, there is also commonqt and ltk
2015-06-22T12:16:03Z jackdaniel: oh, what ↑ said
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2015-06-22T12:17:37Z jackdaniel: digiorgi: and forget I mentioned parasol, its not for gui :P
2015-06-22T12:18:01Z digiorgi: or using abcl with any java gui library may be ok?
2015-06-22T12:18:22Z jackdaniel: if you want to make something not portable, then why not
2015-06-22T12:18:43Z jackdaniel: hm, java is portable
2015-06-22T12:18:45Z jackdaniel: nvm
2015-06-22T12:18:46Z jackdaniel: :D
2015-06-22T12:18:48Z ggole: loz: I don't think so. Method dispatch is based on classes (except for eql specializers).
2015-06-22T12:18:51Z Shinmera: It's not portable to other CLs
2015-06-22T12:19:05Z jackdaniel: yes
2015-06-22T12:19:11Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: Anyway, on that note: Do you know whether CommonQt runs on ECL in any sensible manner?
2015-06-22T12:19:31Z Shinmera: I was thinking of adding ECL to my supported list for the Qtools system sometime.
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2015-06-22T12:19:44Z nyef: ... Wasn't there something about custom specializers in SBCL, and using Optima to do so?
2015-06-22T12:19:53Z nyef: Vague memory here, probably a year or more ago.
2015-06-22T12:19:53Z jackdaniel: not really, no. I think more oriented would be developer of EQL
2015-06-22T12:20:21Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: if you'll give me some test case, I can run it right away tough
2015-06-22T12:20:25Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: I'm mostly asking because the CommonQt site mentions reports of it working on ECL.
2015-06-22T12:20:46Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: I can test it myself just fine, I was mostly just curious whether you knew already.
2015-06-22T12:20:50Z ggole: The extension from eql to pattern matching does seem obvious
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2015-06-22T12:21:23Z ggole: Might be fun to compile efficiently though
2015-06-22T12:21:56Z Shinmera: I had the impression that CLOS was already "fun" enough to make efficient.
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2015-06-22T12:24:21Z Shinmera wonders what kind of optimisations beach has planned for SICL-CLOS
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2015-06-22T12:26:18Z Guthur: nyef: was this what you were thinking about http://christophe.rhodes.io/notes/blog/posts/2014/seeking_real_life_uses_for_generalized_specializers/ and http://christophe.rhodes.io/notes/blog/posts/2014/extended_specializer_responses/
2015-06-22T12:26:42Z nyef: Yeah, that'd be it!
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2015-06-22T12:36:43Z scymtym: loz: ggole: not practical at the moment, but https://github.com/sbcl/specializable/tree/pattern-specializer-sat/src/pattern-specializer aims to provide exactly that as a non-standard, non-portable extension
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2015-06-22T12:38:12Z jackdaniel: it would be nice, if one could put any function as specializer (not only eql)
2015-06-22T12:39:12Z nyef: Yes, because a LOGIOR specializer makes so much sense.
2015-06-22T12:40:33Z jackdaniel: (lambda (y) (eql (car object) y)) for instance
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2015-06-22T12:41:12Z jackdaniel: duh, (lambda ()(eql (car object) my-eql-spec)
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2015-06-22T12:48:48Z ggole: scymtym: interesting, that's close to the (somewhat vague) concept I had in mind
2015-06-22T12:49:44Z ggole: jackdaniel: arbitrary functions don't really make sense, only "constructors"
2015-06-22T12:49:59Z ggole: Which itself is a bit of a vague notion in lisp
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2015-06-22T15:18:55Z troydm: just found about CIM and it's such a great tool
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2015-06-22T15:36:02Z p_l: CIM?
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2015-06-22T15:38:58Z H4ns: is anybody experiencing problems with quicklisp-slime-helper in the latest quicklisp dist?  i get "Invalid protocol message: Symbol "LISTENER-EVAL" not found in the SWANK package."
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2015-06-22T16:04:33Z kami: p_l: https://github.com/KeenS/CIM
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2015-06-22T16:11:03Z jackdaniel: o, nice
2015-06-22T16:11:11Z jackdaniel will incorporate it into his workflow
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2015-06-22T16:48:54Z p_l: ah, that CIM
2015-06-22T16:49:08Z p_l: A bit too many things called CIM
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2015-06-22T16:49:22Z nyef: Or CLIM, if you actually insert that missing L.
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2015-06-22T17:32:59Z pjb: loz: remember, LAST is like REST, not like FIRST.
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2015-06-22T17:33:44Z pjb: loz: also it takes a count (last '(1 2 3 4) 2) --> (3 4)
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2015-06-22T17:36:14Z pjb: jackdaniel: Pascal Costanza has some papers and implementation for more options in method dispatching.
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2015-06-22T17:53:28Z jackdaniel is on fire, bug after bug is squashed
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2015-06-22T18:00:45Z TheSelector3: hi! Graph libraries for lisp - any recommandations?
2015-06-22T18:01:02Z TheSelector3: I've sniffed around and saw cl-graph and cl-graphviz - does anybody have thoughts on those?
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2015-06-22T18:02:48Z dim: which kind of graph, data analysis (short path, topological sort, etc) or drawing?
2015-06-22T18:03:34Z TheSelector3: probably drawing.
2015-06-22T18:04:11Z Bike: well, graphviz is simple enough to use. if the cl wrapper makes conses into dot for you then that sounds nice and easy.
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2015-06-22T18:04:37Z Bike: oh, but it's dwim. hmmmmm
2015-06-22T18:04:44Z scymtym: TheSelector3: maybe cl-dot does what you want
2015-06-22T18:05:29Z TheSelector3: hmm, let me explain a bit more about what I'm expecting to do with it, actually
2015-06-22T18:06:12Z attila_lendvai: Bike: hu.dwim.graphviz uses CFFI and calls into the dll. used to serve us well a few years ago, but may need some care to follow the CFFI/gw changes
2015-06-22T18:06:21Z TheSelector3: I want to play a game where each node is a player, and they form edges with each other based on mutual benefit/cost
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2015-06-22T18:07:16Z TheSelector3: So there needs to be some graph structure in order to implement the logic of the game, but I don't need analysis tools like shortest path, etc.
2015-06-22T18:07:36Z TheSelector3: When I say game, I mean "game theory" , not "video game"
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2015-06-22T18:08:21Z TheSelector3: Do y'all thing graphviz/cl-dot is still appropriate for that?
2015-06-22T18:08:50Z scymtym: cl-dot is only for drawing graphs
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2015-06-22T18:13:08Z attila_lendvai: TheSelector3: if you accept an advice, then make your own representation, and convert to whatever format is needed for drawing
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2015-06-22T18:14:27Z TheSelector3: Okay. I'll toy with using cl-graph or making my own representation, and the convert it into a good format for drawing. Thank you all for your help!
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2015-06-22T18:20:17Z JuanitoJons: Hello, I have  an web app with hunchentoot, and I have created 3 branches, in each branch the port and index function are diferents so when I load the 4 diferents packages into a same instance of emacs, I got the funcion index from the last package loaded.
2015-06-22T18:20:49Z JuanitoJons: this is my code: http://paste.lisp.org/display/150341
2015-06-22T18:23:02Z pjb: How is that surprising?
2015-06-22T18:23:15Z pjb: I don't see any package there.
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2015-06-22T18:24:13Z JuanitoJons: but when I load the package with different instance of emacs works ok.
2015-06-22T18:24:33Z pjb: Also, I fail to see the relationship between a hunchentoot application, written in Common Lisp, and emacs.
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2015-06-22T18:25:02Z pjb: JuanitoJons: I assume you want to run 4 instances of hunchentoot server in the same CL image.
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2015-06-22T18:25:28Z pjb: It is perfectly possible, but since you made branches, assumedly with different patches, then you need to have them in different CL packages.
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2015-06-22T18:25:46Z pjb: I see no (defpackage "MY.APP.V1" …) (defpackage "MY.APP.V2" …) … (defpackage "MY.APP.V4" …)
2015-06-22T18:26:02Z JuanitoJons: pjb: yes I want to run 4  instances of hunchentoot
2015-06-22T18:26:04Z pjb: I see no (my.app.v1:start-server) (my.app.v2:start-server) … (my.app.v4:start-server)
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2015-06-22T18:27:04Z pjb: What I don't see is what is missing in your code to do what you want.
2015-06-22T18:27:08Z jasom: JuanitoJons: you'll need either difference lisp images, or different packages for each server
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2015-06-22T18:28:08Z jasom: JuanitoJons: right now when you load a different version, it's just overwriting things in your image.
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2015-06-22T18:37:07Z JuanitoJons: pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/display/150343  add more information.
2015-06-22T18:38:06Z pjb: each branch needs a different package, since you want to load them in the same image!
2015-06-22T18:38:18Z pjb: (in-package #:cueentame-com.branch1) (in-package #:cueentame-com.branch2) …
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2015-06-22T18:38:42Z aeth: Are there downsides to using CLOS?
2015-06-22T18:39:12Z H4ns: aeth: what is your fear?
2015-06-22T18:39:28Z aeth: bad performance
2015-06-22T18:39:33Z JuanitoJons: pjb: yes I have directory per each system
2015-06-22T18:39:35Z H4ns: aeth: hah
2015-06-22T18:39:46Z pjb: JuanitoJons: directories don't matter.
2015-06-22T18:40:07Z pjb: We're talking to you about COMMMON-LISP:PACKAGE not about directories or systems!
2015-06-22T18:40:16Z H4ns: aeth: clos is complex because it is fast.  you'll still have to think, so, as it can not substitute intelligence.
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2015-06-22T18:40:55Z Bike: you know what they say about premature optimization, aeth
2015-06-22T18:41:30Z jlarocco: i don't think that's a premature optimization
2015-06-22T18:41:57Z aeth: Bike: it's not really optimizing (using EQ instead of EQL to test symbols *was* premature optimization, though)
2015-06-22T18:42:00Z aeth: It's more like data structure choice
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2015-06-22T18:42:23Z jlarocco: yeah, getting it wrong in the first place will mean significant redesign and rework later
2015-06-22T18:42:44Z H4ns: jlarocco: not using clos is not a guarantee for faster design.
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2015-06-22T18:43:17Z aeth: Common Lisp apparently has structs, too
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2015-06-22T18:43:47Z pjb: aeth: notice in some implementations, structures are clos objects.
2015-06-22T18:44:05Z aeth: pjb: yes but I'm guessing :type and a few other things might help with speed
2015-06-22T18:44:10Z pjb: same as conditions, they may also be clos objects.
2015-06-22T18:44:12Z H4ns: aeth: ah, so you're afraid that slot access would be slower than structure field access?
2015-06-22T18:44:14Z Bike: it does. data structure wise they're the same as 90% of what you're going to do with clos, and if you decide to go to structs later you're accessing everything through accessors anyway so it doesn't matter much
2015-06-22T18:44:19Z pjb: aeth: yes, you can use vectors and lists.
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2015-06-22T18:45:22Z H4ns: aeth: if that is your concern, i would recommend that you look at your implementation closely to find out what optimizations it offers for clos instances.  most implementations have a very well optimized path for slot access that is competive with structure field accessors.
2015-06-22T18:45:57Z H4ns: aeth: using structs instead of clos classes for speed concerns _is_ premature optimization.
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2015-06-22T18:46:11Z JuanitoJons: pjb: ok
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2015-06-22T18:46:21Z aeth: H4ns: what about for something that I know will be the main performance bottleneck?
2015-06-22T18:46:25Z aeth: H4ns: i.e. voxels
2015-06-22T18:46:33Z pjb: Instead, write a macro define-entity and use it to define your entities.  Then you can modify it to generate a defstruct or a defclass as you need.
2015-06-22T18:46:37Z H4ns: aeth: read the manual, measure, then decide.
2015-06-22T18:46:43Z JuanitoJons: pjb: so If I have different package (in-package #:name) I will have different instances of hunchentoot without problems
2015-06-22T18:46:51Z pjb: yes.
2015-06-22T18:47:10Z pjb: as long as you start it on different addresses or ports.
2015-06-22T18:47:26Z aeth: pjb: yes I am actually doing something similar for what I changed into a hash table, I write a wrapper over the hash table to get stuff from there and it has helped through several changes.
2015-06-22T18:47:34Z aeth: Instead of just directly taking from the hash table
2015-06-22T18:47:39Z pjb: indeed.
2015-06-22T18:47:44Z H4ns: aeth: as i said, slot access using the optimized path is typically competitive with structure field access.  often, named accessors are faster than slot-value.  sometimes, type declarations are helpful, too.
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2015-06-22T18:48:00Z H4ns: aeth: slot access is generally faster than hash table access
2015-06-22T18:48:01Z aeth: pjb: In fact I wound up making it return a lambda that is then funcalled and removed quite a bit of my program that way
2015-06-22T18:48:20Z H4ns: aeth: you should neither trust your intuition nor what you read here, you should experiment, measure and read.
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2015-06-22T18:48:40Z aeth: H4ns: so avoid slot value?
2015-06-22T18:48:53Z H4ns: aeth: !-2
2015-06-22T18:48:57Z aeth: what should I use to measure?
2015-06-22T18:49:08Z H4ns: aeth: a profiler.  or cl:time
2015-06-22T18:49:15Z aeth: yes I've been using time
2015-06-22T18:49:37Z aeth: SBCL's time is quite good, CLISP's isn't, but CLISP doesn't like one of my libraries so I can't really make my code portable right now
2015-06-22T18:49:48Z H4ns: aeth: ignore clisp.
2015-06-22T18:49:56Z Bike: still say you should try ccl, at least
2015-06-22T18:50:07Z pjb: abcl ecl
2015-06-22T18:50:17Z pjb: soon clasp
2015-06-22T18:50:28Z aeth: ABCL is the Java one, right? I don't think that one will work because I make heavy use of C libraries at the moment because it's GL code
2015-06-22T18:50:31Z H4ns: aeth: sbcl, ccl, allegro cl and lispworks are speed competitors.
2015-06-22T18:50:41Z H4ns: aeth: abcl is s.l.o.w.
2015-06-22T18:50:54Z pjb: nah! everybody knows java is very fast.
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2015-06-22T18:50:58Z jackdaniel: ecl is quite fast wrt clos, unless you use complex methods
2015-06-22T18:51:14Z jackdaniel: fast in ecl terms obviously
2015-06-22T18:51:28Z H4ns: aeth: you cannot optimize for multiple implementations at the same time.
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2015-06-22T18:52:02Z jackdaniel: H4ns: that's pretty much fallacy, you can put crucial pieces of code with #+implementation
2015-06-22T18:52:04Z H4ns: aeth: something that is good on one implementation can be bad on another, and adding type declarations mindlessly can also slow things down and make your code unsafe.
2015-06-22T18:52:18Z JuanitoJons: pjb: thank you very much for your comments.
2015-06-22T18:52:19Z H4ns: jackdaniel: not in my experience.
2015-06-22T18:53:07Z H4ns: jackdaniel: whenever i needed to make things fast, i needed to look closely at what the implementation liked and what it did not.  making things fast often requires reordering and refactoring, and all that comes at the expense of portability.
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2015-06-22T18:56:56Z Cthulhux: i'm planning to rebuild one of my project websites i made with flask in order to learn python with caveman2 in order to learn common lisp. looks like i can just reuse my jinja2 templates. any caveats?
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2015-06-22T18:59:18Z pjb: Cthulhux: perhaps in #lispweb they have more knowledge about such a thing?
2015-06-22T18:59:31Z Cthulhux: nice. a new channel to join. thanks.
2015-06-22T19:00:25Z f08: In order to do what? :)
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2015-06-22T19:01:02Z Cthulhux: in order to discuss with people :p
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2015-06-22T19:02:18Z aeth: Interesting, there's a Common Lisp Foundation. I didn't know that. http://www.cl-foundation.org/
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2015-06-22T19:03:54Z Cthulhux: i wish they'd continue evolving the CL standard.
2015-06-22T19:04:58Z pjb: I hope they'll never do that!
2015-06-22T19:05:07Z pjb: I would have to rewrite all my programs!
2015-06-22T19:05:11Z pjb: Are you crazy!?!?
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2015-06-22T19:05:23Z Cthulhux: evolve, not revolt.
2015-06-22T19:05:36Z Cthulhux: backwards-compatible :)
2015-06-22T19:05:45Z pjb: Well we all make it evolve, by writing new functions and _macros_!
2015-06-22T19:05:53Z pjb: Don't wait for *them*, do it yourself.
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2015-06-22T19:06:40Z Petit_Dejeuner: I can't think of anything worth changing the standard for that wouldn't A) break backwards compatability B) be trivial to make a third party library.
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2015-06-22T19:07:13Z mrottenkolber: There is one particular idea I've heard recently that's quite cool (regarding the CL standard): Group standard symbols in packages (core, collections, ...) and have a super-package (cl). That way we could talk about and target subsets of CL.
2015-06-22T19:07:32Z williamyao: Making Common Lisp a Lisp-1 would be nice.
2015-06-22T19:07:43Z pjb: mrottenkolber: but this is NOT FORBIDDEN! Any implementation can do that!
2015-06-22T19:07:47Z williamyao: Not exactly trivial to do though.
2015-06-22T19:07:52Z nyef: williamyao: No, it wouldn't.
2015-06-22T19:07:55Z Bike: add recursive ADTs. nooooo problem
2015-06-22T19:08:02Z pjb: mrottenkolber: (eql (symbol-package 'cl:car)  (find-package "CL")) can be NIL!
2015-06-22T19:08:15Z mrottenkolber: pjb: Yeah I know, would be cool to have a standard hierarchy though (maybe as a CDR)
2015-06-22T19:08:33Z pjb: mrottenkolber: and nobody prevents you to define those packages yourself!
2015-06-22T19:08:48Z pjb: what are you waiting, instead of useless chatting here?
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2015-06-22T19:08:57Z mrottenkolber: williamyao: also completely backwards :)
2015-06-22T19:09:02Z pjb: mrottenkolber: You said it yourself, it would be quite cool!!!
2015-06-22T19:09:12Z pjb: mrottenkolber: Just do it!
2015-06-22T19:09:13Z mrottenkolber: pjb: totally agree, I should do it :)
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2015-06-22T19:12:05Z aeth: tbh, I think that a new standard would come only if there are lots of users
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2015-06-22T19:12:26Z aeth: Even if a new standard is pointless and not necessary, it will happen if enough people use it. And even if it's absolutely necessary, it won't happen right now.
2015-06-22T19:12:46Z aeth: s/use it/use CL/
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2015-06-22T19:13:43Z pjb: aeth: so again, thanks for finding the solution: DO NOT TALK about new standard, but instead, USE Common Lisp, so that more people use it and eventually they'll write a new standard (fat chance, on my dead body).
2015-06-22T19:13:57Z pjb: aeth: you're good.
2015-06-22T19:14:14Z aeth: right, basically write a "killer app" library or program in CL, attract a lot of users, and a new standard will eventually happen whether you want it or not :-p
2015-06-22T19:14:29Z pjb: stop taking!  write a "killer app" library or program in CL!
2015-06-22T19:14:32Z pjb: talking
2015-06-22T19:14:33Z aeth: It's a result of a lot of users doing a lot of incompatible cool experiments over a long enough period of time
2015-06-22T19:14:45Z pjb: stop that immediately!  write a "killer app" library or program in CL instead.
2015-06-22T19:15:06Z aeth: What if I write a program that writes killer apps instead of writing a killer app?
2015-06-22T19:15:16Z pjb: You may, but do it.
2015-06-22T19:15:44Z aeth: Okay, should I include a factory-factory-factory-factory-factory in this app?
2015-06-22T19:15:51Z pjb: No.
2015-06-22T19:15:56Z Bike: only if it kills things
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2015-06-22T19:16:28Z pjb: aeth: cf. http://paste.lisp.org/display/149906
2015-06-22T19:17:12Z aeth: pjb: to be fair, that's not Java, that's Enterprise Java
2015-06-22T19:17:53Z aeth: https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition/blob/master/src/main/java/com/seriouscompany/business/java/fizzbuzz/packagenamingpackage/impl/loop/LoopContext.java
2015-06-22T19:18:01Z aeth: I like line 8
2015-06-22T19:18:05Z aeth: import com.seriouscompany.business.java.fizzbuzz.packagenamingpackage.interfaces.loop.LoopContextStateManipulation;
2015-06-22T19:18:49Z mrottenkolber: Omg who wrote that. Must have been a ton of work. :D
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2015-06-22T19:19:34Z Bike: probably they just wrote an enterprise factory to write it for em
2015-06-22T19:20:11Z Petit_Dejeuner: Oh wow, look at the issues.
2015-06-22T19:21:03Z aeth: someone needs to make a FizzBuzz JavaScript Edition
2015-06-22T19:21:11Z aeth: loads 100 libraries (including 10 tracker libraries) to do something simple
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2015-06-22T19:30:54Z jackdaniel: if I bind one input stream to bunch of echo-streams, what should happen?
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2015-06-22T19:32:03Z jackdaniel: should it only forward input to first who reads from it, or to all of them?
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2015-06-22T19:36:42Z jackdaniel: H4ns: I think that while what I said isn't true normally for apps, it might be true for some libraries, which try to balance between portability and performance
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2015-06-22T19:40:16Z pjb: jackdaniel: it's the echo-stream that performs the echo.
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2015-06-22T19:41:25Z jackdaniel: pjb: that's true for all implementations, but can't find in clhs if that is required
2015-06-22T19:41:56Z jackdaniel: only, that echo-stream may, but doesn't have to forward message instantinousely
2015-06-22T19:42:18Z pjb: Because it's not written under input-stream: input-stream will write the data read from them to where already???
2015-06-22T19:42:37Z pjb: the "may" is for buffering.
2015-06-22T19:44:02Z jackdaniel: well, from practical perspective it might be beneficial, if streams would be aware of each other - having stream X being echo between A and B, reading B may suck things from A - but that wuold require B being aware of X
2015-06-22T19:45:13Z jackdaniel: or if B hangs on read, and someone writes to A (which is two-way-stream in fact), then A forwards message to X, and then to B - again, such awareness is necessary
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2015-06-22T19:51:05Z pjb: jackdaniel: as an implementor, your are allowed to all the kludges and hacks you want, as long as you preserve semantics.
2015-06-22T19:51:31Z pjb: and as long as the program complexity doesn't grow beyond your comprehension.
2015-06-22T19:51:36Z jackdaniel: pjb: unless I violate spec, hence the question
2015-06-22T19:52:12Z pjb: it obviously should echo only to the output stream of the echo-stream that is being read!
2015-06-22T19:52:20Z pjb: the semantics are clear.
2015-06-22T19:52:30Z jackdaniel: uhm
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2015-06-22T19:52:45Z pjb: echo-stream: All input taken from the input stream is echoed to the output stream.
2015-06-22T19:53:22Z pjb: It's not all input taken from the input stream thru whatever other stream is echoed to the output stream of all the echo-streams in the system that have an input stream resolving eventually to the same input stream.
2015-06-22T19:53:27Z pjb: Notice the different in language.
2015-06-22T19:54:12Z pjb: difference.
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2015-06-22T20:18:41Z jackdaniel: pjb: hmm, I have to rethink it and I'll talk to you. I think that I haven't expressed it clearly enough - I have impression that description you gave isn't a thing I'm talking about
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2015-06-22T20:42:34Z phf`: i have a broken utf-8 file, which i'm reading with sbcl. i want to replace all the broken symbols with #\?. is the handler-bind on stream-decoding-error and then invoke-restart input-replacement that correct way of handling that?
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2015-06-22T20:45:43Z scymtym: phf`: it is one way. you can use specify a replacement in the external format: (let ((stream (open "/dev/urandom" :external-format '(:utf-8 :replacement #\?)))) (read-line stream))
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2015-06-22T20:46:05Z scymtym: s/use specify/also specify/
2015-06-22T20:47:16Z phf`: nice, thank you
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2015-06-22T21:13:02Z oleo_: huh huh, i wanna learn control-flow dam!
2015-06-22T21:13:19Z oleo_: catch.....throw.....
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2015-06-22T21:17:19Z oleo_ catchs a bone!
2015-06-22T21:17:30Z oleo_ makes some guttural sounds!
2015-06-22T21:17:35Z oleo_: hrrrrrrrrrrr
2015-06-22T21:17:42Z oleo_: lol
2015-06-22T21:18:19Z oleo_: wuff
2015-06-22T21:18:20Z oleo_: hahahahhaa
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2015-06-22T21:28:09Z mdln: Reee Ruuurrr Reee Ruuurrr Ree ree
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2015-06-22T21:31:47Z OxMLR: Hiya
2015-06-22T21:31:53Z k-stz: how do I add more sharpsign reader macros, for example #m is unused (http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_dh.htm)
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2015-06-22T21:35:35Z nyef: clhs set-dispatch-macro-char
2015-06-22T21:35:36Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for set-dispatch-macro-char.
2015-06-22T21:35:37Z nyef: Hrm.
2015-06-22T21:35:41Z nyef: Something like that, at least.
2015-06-22T21:36:02Z williamyao: clhs set-dispatch-macro-character
2015-06-22T21:36:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_set__1.htm
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2015-06-22T21:36:24Z k-stz: looking good thanks
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2015-06-22T21:37:08Z k-stz: also according to clhs #m shouldn't be used though
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2015-06-22T21:42:23Z nyef: k-stz: It says that an implementation is allowed to define #m, it doesn't say that a user program can't also define it.
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2015-06-22T21:46:14Z k-stz: I thought that implied it is ill-advised. Also thanks again this works intuitively
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2015-06-22T21:48:56Z kami: Are alexandria committers around?
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2015-06-22T21:49:52Z nyef: Well, it may break print/read consistency if an implementation did define #m and used it in readably-printed syntax for things.
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2015-06-22T21:50:51Z Shinmera: k-stz: Generally when messing with the reader you'll want to use named-readtables.
2015-06-22T21:51:02Z Shinmera: That way you can avoid your changes clashing with someone else's
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2015-06-22T22:06:40Z loz1: guys, whats wrong with this loop?
2015-06-22T22:06:40Z loz1: (loop for curr = 1
2015-06-22T22:06:40Z loz1:             then (1+ curr)
2015-06-22T22:06:40Z loz1:             when (= curr 5)
2015-06-22T22:06:40Z loz1:             do (format t "~&~a" curr))
2015-06-22T22:07:06Z williamyao: no termination
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2015-06-22T22:07:26Z loz1: oh, ye, just replaced when with until and it worked :)
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2015-06-22T22:08:35Z loz1: williamyao: thx)
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2015-06-22T22:17:13Z loz1: any simple queue implementation around?
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2015-06-22T22:21:31Z jasom: loz1: what do you need out of the queue?
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2015-06-22T22:21:58Z jasom: loz1: there are many queue implementations, but for different needs
2015-06-22T22:23:06Z loz1: jasom: i found cl-speedy-queue, with simple interface
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2015-06-22T22:23:19Z loz1: but looks like it has to be of limited size
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2015-06-22T22:23:44Z loz1: i'm looking for simple interface, without priorities, and dynamic resizing
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2015-06-22T22:25:58Z loke_: loz1: have you looked at cl-containers?
2015-06-22T22:26:06Z loke_: It has every storage object under the sun
2015-06-22T22:26:43Z loz1: loke_: nope, thank you
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2015-06-22T22:28:41Z loke_: loz1: Its API is very generic, but quite flexible once you get the hang of it.
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2015-06-22T22:36:44Z jasom would avoid cl-containers for now.
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2015-06-22T22:37:17Z jasom: loz1: a non-thread-safe one like you wish is just a few lines of lisp and has been (re)implemented many many times
2015-06-22T22:37:48Z jasom: I'm not aware of one that is separated into a library though
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2015-06-22T22:39:10Z loke_: I wrote one (that has thread-safe support and even blocking supprot):
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2015-06-22T22:39:25Z loke_: https://github.com/lokedhs/containers/blob/master/src/blocking-queue.lisp
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2015-06-22T23:00:02Z mrottenkolber: JPL-QUEUES is very good!
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2015-06-23T02:28:06Z akkad: what is the hotness that would be closest to sinatra? clack? caveman? restas?
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2015-06-23T02:29:28Z failproofshark: akkad: i'm not sure about "hotness" but ningle is inspired by sinatra and other "micro web frameworks" if im not mistaken
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2015-06-23T02:29:40Z failproofshark: most notably it's url routing
2015-06-23T02:29:52Z jason_m: clack's website says as much: http://clacklisp.org/
2015-06-23T02:30:43Z nyef: "web framework" is not the first thing that comes to mind when I see "sinatra".
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2015-06-23T02:31:04Z akkad: I should have said Thinatra, since that's the Lispy version
2015-06-23T02:31:28Z adhoc: nyef: sinatra is a scheme/guile web framework
2015-06-23T02:31:38Z akkad: ruby
2015-06-23T02:31:41Z akkad: thinatra is elisp
2015-06-23T02:31:44Z adhoc: pah
2015-06-23T02:31:54Z adhoc: s/sinatra/artanis/
2015-06-23T02:32:01Z akkad: evented elnode + nginx makes it webscale but, it's not CL
2015-06-23T02:32:09Z adhoc: yes sinatra is the rubby one
2015-06-23T02:32:31Z nyef: I definitely associate "Sinatra" with the musician. Just as I associate "Milo Bloom" with the comic strip character, not the band.
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2015-06-23T02:33:23Z Petit_Dejeuner: failproofshark, I think ningle is nice. It's so simple.
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2015-06-23T02:35:50Z failproofshark: Petit_Dejeuner: indeed :) its fun to use
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2015-06-23T02:51:27Z akkad: ahh based on clack
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2015-06-23T02:54:45Z akkad: s/hotness/actively maintained
2015-06-23T02:57:01Z akkad: running into a lot of these issues in QL where packages start generating parse errors. https://gist.github.com/e3b2752985c78047e9e1
2015-06-23T02:58:12Z nyef: akkad: That's neat. What's your $LANG ?
2015-06-23T02:58:46Z akkad: empty/unset
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2015-06-23T03:00:26Z nyef: What is the value of SB-IMPL::*DEFAULT-EXTERNAL-FORMAT* ?
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2015-06-23T03:04:07Z nyef: akkad: You still here?
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2015-06-23T03:06:21Z nyef: XachX: Is loading stuff with quicklisp with a default external format of :ASCII a sane thing to attempt, or even something that gets tested?
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2015-06-23T03:33:29Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-06-23T03:33:29Z minion: beach, memo from pjb: about tracking source location, I don't know if you've seen the discussion, but somebody also asked about finding the source of where objects were defined.  Ie. the source of the expression that produced a value.  Of course, this would be costly, but it might be worth implementing it for highly debuggable environments. (clisp has an option to add a field to cons cells).
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2015-06-23T03:34:27Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-06-23T03:39:27Z nyef: beach: I'm hoping to have the basic graphics protocols in place in nq-clim by the end of next weekend.
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2015-06-23T03:40:51Z beach: Excellent!
2015-06-23T03:42:09Z nyef: I've already started sorting out creating mediums "properly" and associating sheets to mediums.
2015-06-23T03:42:55Z beach: Good.  What are you doing about the thread-safety of with-graphics-options (or whatever it's called)?
2015-06-23T03:43:30Z nyef: I'm declaring that the initial version of nq-clim is single-threaded.
2015-06-23T03:43:40Z beach: Hmm.  OK.
2015-06-23T03:43:43Z beach: Fair enough.
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2015-06-23T03:44:37Z nyef: The second option is to declare a whole lot of the sheet I/O stuff to be thread-affine.
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2015-06-23T03:45:03Z beach: How would that be done in practice?
2015-06-23T03:45:09Z beach: Just document it like that?
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2015-06-23T03:45:52Z nyef: Alternately, declare it to be not thread-safe, and that any locking is the users responsibility.
2015-06-23T03:46:06Z nyef: But thread affinity works for more backends.
2015-06-23T03:46:24Z pillton: Out of interest, what do people use threads for?
2015-06-23T03:46:30Z nyef: (OpenGL, Gtk (IIRC), and so on.)
2015-06-23T03:46:38Z nyef: pillton: Handling web requests!
2015-06-23T03:47:35Z pillton: Is that it?
2015-06-23T03:47:50Z nyef: Okay, and SLIME evaluation requests.
2015-06-23T03:48:09Z nyef: Though I really don't use SLIME these days, so scratch that one.
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2015-06-23T03:48:18Z H4ns: pillton: parrallelization of long running computations
2015-06-23T03:48:23Z theos: what do you use
2015-06-23T03:48:40Z nyef: theos: rlwrap.
2015-06-23T03:48:42Z pillton: H4ns: I do that but at a process level.
2015-06-23T03:48:45Z H4ns: pillton: activity modeling.
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2015-06-23T03:50:46Z pillton: H4ns: What does activity modeling mean? A watchdog?
2015-06-23T03:51:04Z theos: nyef i mean do you use a slime alternative?
2015-06-23T03:51:30Z nyef: Not at this point, though I have occasionally entertained thoughts of trying SLUDGE.
2015-06-23T03:51:38Z nyef: Or just writing my own.
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2015-06-23T03:52:50Z H4ns: pillton: when a process has multiple activities that can be easily expressed as a number of possibly blocking steps, threads are useful because they hide the blocking on the source level.
2015-06-23T03:52:56Z theos: ok
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2015-06-23T03:56:11Z pillton: H4ns: I see. Like the lisp equivalent of cat file | sed ... ?
2015-06-23T03:57:02Z H4ns: pillton: if you will, yes. but more like daemon processes.
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2015-06-23T03:58:44Z H4ns: pillton: many things that can easily be expressed in threads make application code complicated in asynchronous (single-threaded, i/o multiplexed) environments.
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2015-06-23T03:59:44Z pillton: H4ns: Fair enough.
2015-06-23T04:00:29Z pillton: H4ns: So, do you stuff like like modifying classes across threads? Or could you get away with just "forking" the environment?
2015-06-23T04:01:42Z H4ns: pillton: forking environments require explicit communication to pass worker results back to the coordinator, which is extra effort that does not exist in threaded environments because the heap is shared.
2015-06-23T04:02:20Z H4ns: pillton: so while in principle, everything can be done with processes, in practice, it is extra effort and it makes debugging much harder.
2015-06-23T04:02:36Z pillton: H4ns: Environment as in the current lisp environment (lexical, dynamic etc).
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2015-06-23T04:03:18Z H4ns: pillton: environment as in "threads that share the heap"
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2015-06-23T04:05:13Z H4ns: pillton: in such an environment, sharing data between threads is done by reference passing, whereas in a multi-process environment, data must be taken off the heap of one process and passed through some ipc mechanism to another process, possibly involving serialization/deserialization.  all that effort is only worthwhile if the paralellization is rather coarse grained.
2015-06-23T04:05:47Z pillton: H4ns: Ok. Yep.
2015-06-23T04:06:49Z crichter: hey, would it be too off-topic to ask a question about using SLIME to connect to a remotely-running lisp image?
2015-06-23T04:06:58Z Bike: no, go ahead
2015-06-23T04:07:36Z crichter: So, I've followed the instructions in the LSIME info page on doihng this...
2015-06-23T04:07:57Z crichter: and everything goes ok until I actually hit 'M-x slime-connect'
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2015-06-23T04:08:33Z crichter: at which point I see the familiar SLIME startup message in the minibuffer
2015-06-23T04:08:46Z crichter: and then that's it.
2015-06-23T04:09:02Z Bike: So it doesn't ask you for a host or port, you mean?
2015-06-23T04:09:05Z pillton: H4ns: Lets assume you have threads, but it is impossible for one thread to mutate the environment used by another thread.
2015-06-23T04:09:08Z oleo__: morning
2015-06-23T04:09:37Z crichter: Oh no, it does, 127.0.0.1 and 4005, just like it's supposed to
2015-06-23T04:09:47Z Bike: Oh. so what's the problem.
2015-06-23T04:10:09Z Bike: ...well unless you're ssh tunneling or something you don't want to connect to localhost to get to another machine, probably.
2015-06-23T04:10:09Z crichter: So it says I'm connected, but there's no REPL
2015-06-23T04:10:27Z H4ns: pillton: then what?
2015-06-23T04:10:34Z crichter: Yeah, I set up a tunnel
2015-06-23T04:10:39Z Bike: crichter: did you do (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) or whatevs in your .emacs?
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2015-06-23T04:11:30Z crichter: No. Do I need to do that on both the remote and local machines?
2015-06-23T04:11:40Z pillton: H4ns: Well, you avoid needing IPC like you request, and your lisp implementation essentially follows a single threaded design.
2015-06-23T04:11:45Z Bike: just the local
2015-06-23T04:12:41Z crichter: Ok, I'll try that...
2015-06-23T04:12:54Z H4ns: pillton: right.  you will either need to have explicit message passing (which puts threads on the same level as processes) or immutable data structures so that you can pass references
2015-06-23T04:13:18Z H4ns: pillton: i.e. erlang or clojure
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2015-06-23T04:15:37Z pillton: H4ns: Ok. So your application(s) would not require any changes to operate on such an implementation?
2015-06-23T04:15:59Z crichter: Whee! That totally worked. Thx Bike!
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2015-06-23T04:16:16Z Bike: no prob
2015-06-23T04:16:33Z H4ns: pillton: i'm not sure where you're getting at?  any application that uses parallelism needs to be aware of the environment that it is operating in.
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2015-06-23T04:16:44Z Bike: crichter: as an explanation, slime has a bunch of extension stuff, and the repl is one of those extensions. you can load it by itself but fancy just loads a ton of shit including the repl
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2015-06-23T04:17:22Z akkad: nyet here
2015-06-23T04:17:23Z akkad: nyef
2015-06-23T04:17:55Z pillton: H4ns: My apologies. I'm not communicating well.
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2015-06-23T04:18:45Z crichter: So when I was getting a REPL before on my local machine, it wasn't a slime-REPL, but rather just the basic sbcl-REPL?
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2015-06-23T04:18:50Z pillton: H4ns: I guess what I am trying to say is that, you could design your multi-threaded application by doing the following...
2015-06-23T04:19:08Z Bike: crichter: were you using slime before?
2015-06-23T04:19:15Z crichter: Yep
2015-06-23T04:19:22Z nyef: akkad: Still having trouble with those parse errors?
2015-06-23T04:19:31Z Bike: if it was *inferior-lisp* than it wasn't the slime repl
2015-06-23T04:19:59Z crichter: oh-ho! that's totally what it was...
2015-06-23T04:20:01Z Bike: the slime repl is *slime-repl whateveryourimplementationis* and has CL-USER>, whereas sbcl's is just a stupid asterisk
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2015-06-23T04:20:46Z pillton: H4ns: 1. Start with a single thread. 2. Load your code in order to create a "common" environment inherited by all threads. 3. Start each thread initialized with the "common" environment.
2015-06-23T04:22:54Z pillton: H4ns: Each thread is i) now running in parallel (ii) is capable of communicating with other threads using objects from the "common" environment and (iii) it is not possible for one thread to modify the environment of another thread.
2015-06-23T04:24:11Z H4ns: pillton: all that is possible.  you'll still have to devise a way how the threads communicate, and i'm not sure what your overall goal is.  you asked what people use threads for and i told you how i use them.  i'm not looking for alternatives, really :)
2015-06-23T04:24:54Z Bike: crichter: and inferior-lisp popped up with local slime but not remote connection because local slime starts the lisp itself -> throws up the buffer. mysteries, solved
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2015-06-23T04:26:42Z pillton: H4ns: You are right. I was (albeit in a slow and tortuous manner) trying ascertain if all of your applications just pass objects from one thread to another. i.e. None of them involve a thread needing to mutate the global environment.
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2015-06-23T04:27:52Z H4ns: pillton: in common lisp, the global environment is the heap, it is shared between threads and they mutate it.
2015-06-23T04:28:31Z H4ns: pillton: so no, you're not getting me right if you assume that my parallel common lisp programs don't mutate the global environment.  they do.
2015-06-23T04:29:40Z pillton: H4ns: Well, I'm not sure I agree with that. A lot of the environment accessor functions accept an environment argument. There may be room to reinterpret what the global environment is from the perspective of a thread.
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2015-06-23T04:29:46Z oleo__: then make them create their own copies......
2015-06-23T04:30:21Z pillton: H4ns: I understand your position though.
2015-06-23T04:30:33Z H4ns: pillton: it is not a matter of agreement or position, it is a matter of understanding the facts.
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2015-06-23T04:37:44Z beach: H4ns: You are using the word "environment" in an unfortunate way.  In Common Lisp, and environment is a mapping from names to meanings, so it is not the same thing as the heap.
2015-06-23T04:38:30Z beach: "an environment is..."
2015-06-23T04:38:58Z nyef: Right, I need some sleep. G'night all.
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2015-06-23T04:39:10Z beach: 'night nyef.
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2015-06-23T04:42:48Z beach: H4ns: Parts of the Common Lisp HyperSpec seem to suggest that multiple global environments (in the sense of mappings from names to meanings) are a possibility.  What pillton is suggesting is that different threads could operate against different such environments.
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2015-06-23T05:35:11Z kami: Good morning.
2015-06-23T05:35:19Z pillton: G'day kami.
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2015-06-23T06:41:32Z jackdaniel: o/
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2015-06-23T07:05:42Z nalik891: o/
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2015-06-23T07:48:38Z PuercoPop: oi, how do I specify that a file depends on a file in a diferent module in asdf?
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2015-06-23T08:36:50Z jackdaniel: ugh, never run applications from directory which doesn't exist ^_^
2015-06-23T08:39:10Z loz: guys, how do i encode url with unicode chars for using in drakma?
2015-06-23T08:42:45Z jackdaniel: (handler-case (whatever) (T (e) …)) - is it idiom for catching any condition?
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2015-06-23T08:51:12Z loz: jackdaniel: it will catch them all ye
2015-06-23T08:51:31Z loz: jackdaniel: but you must have a good reason to do so
2015-06-23T08:51:53Z loz found some problems using such handler
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2015-06-23T08:52:56Z jackdaniel: loz: I have! I have to reset safe-area of stacks when aborting execution on stack overflow
2015-06-23T08:53:21Z jackdaniel: *after* providing continuation, which needs safe-area
2015-06-23T08:53:59Z loz: well, you need a smarter adviser than me now =)
2015-06-23T08:54:47Z dtw: jackdaniel, it catches also warnings which may otherwise have automatic restarts.
2015-06-23T08:56:12Z dtw: jackdaniel, if you want to handle only errors you can say so: (handler-case FORM (error (...) ...))
2015-06-23T08:57:54Z jackdaniel: I'm resignalling it after cleanup, its (handler-case (universal-error-handler …) (T (e) (fix-safe-region) (signal e)))
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2015-06-23T08:58:03Z jackdaniel: roughly speaking
2015-06-23T08:58:12Z H4ns: jackdaniel: why don't you use handler-bind instead?
2015-06-23T08:58:29Z H4ns: jackdaniel: resignaling has the disadvantage that the error location is lost.
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2015-06-23T09:00:13Z jackdaniel: H4ns: it's strictly stack-overflow ecl internals problem, I know what signals an error and everything, I just need a hook, if user decides not to continue by extending a stack
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2015-06-23T10:04:29Z antoszka: Guys, in cl-ppcre can I freely mix the perl-style regex strings and parse trees in a single scanner?
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2015-06-23T10:11:00Z d140042: hello everyone
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2015-06-23T10:21:43Z dim: antoszka: (:REGEX <string>) where <string> is an embedded regular expression in Perl syntax.
2015-06-23T10:21:48Z dim: see docs at http://weitz.de/cl-ppcre/#create-scanner2
2015-06-23T10:23:24Z antoszka: dim: cool, thanks.
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2015-06-23T11:53:01Z drmeister_: Hello everybody
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2015-06-23T11:54:17Z jackdaniel: o/
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2015-06-23T12:32:52Z loz: how would one call power function in cl?
2015-06-23T12:33:38Z splittist: clhs exp ?
2015-06-23T12:33:39Z jackdaniel: loz: (expt base power)
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2015-06-23T12:34:27Z loz: thanks)
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2015-06-23T12:59:42Z Vityok: Hi all!
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2015-06-23T13:06:28Z jackdaniel: Vityok: hi
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2015-06-23T13:52:38Z oleo: morning
2015-06-23T13:54:07Z jackdaniel: o/
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2015-06-23T13:55:45Z oleo: \o
2015-06-23T13:55:49Z oleo: hahahaha
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2015-06-23T14:17:06Z jackdaniel: hm?
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2015-06-23T14:28:13Z jackdaniel: ha! cheated on conditional ^_^
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2015-06-23T14:31:31Z jackdaniel: hooray, stack in ecl is a tiny bit better then yestarday, now cleanup and push (probably tomorrow after additional testing)
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2015-06-23T14:42:37Z jackdaniel: http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/self_high_five.gif
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2015-06-23T14:45:31Z eudoxia: jackdaniel: http://i.imgur.com/SqpODEA.gif
2015-06-23T14:46:02Z jackdaniel: :)
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2015-06-23T14:53:14Z KASHIF:  Hello
2015-06-23T14:53:31Z KASHIF:  Hellow every Body
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2015-06-23T16:42:09Z Posterdati: hi
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2015-06-23T16:42:51Z vydd: hi, I've noticed that github link at http://www.cliki.net/CL-HTML-Parse is malformed. I wanted to change it myself, but wasn't sure if there was special syntax for external links
2015-06-23T16:42:57Z Posterdati: I've got a problem with ioctl in ffi: the original function in iolib.syscalls is missing the case where (ioctl fd int int)
2015-06-23T16:43:28Z Posterdati: I patched my iolib, is there anyway to submit a patch for it?
2015-06-23T16:43:52Z Bike: sionescu's github?
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2015-06-23T17:05:18Z Xach: Shinmera: I don't understand http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-06-23/failure-report/dissect.html#dissect - do you?
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2015-06-23T17:06:07Z Shinmera: I think I do, hold on.
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2015-06-23T17:08:08Z Shinmera: Xach: I think that must be a FASL cache issue. The toolkit.lisp got compiled while :bordeaux-threads was on the *features* list, which activates a call to BT. Now that the package isn't around anymore, it errors.
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2015-06-23T17:08:21Z Xach: interesting
2015-06-23T17:08:29Z Shinmera: I can change it to a runtime package check instead if that's a problem for you.
2015-06-23T17:09:14Z Xach: Is dissect a dependency of another project that also depends on bordeaux-threads?
2015-06-23T17:09:30Z Xach: If that other thing is built first, that would explain the fasl issue for me.
2015-06-23T17:09:30Z Shinmera: Yes.
2015-06-23T17:09:43Z Xach: I don't wipe fasls and build from scratch for each project. That takes a very very very long time.
2015-06-23T17:09:51Z Shinmera: Yeah, I can imagine.
2015-06-23T17:10:13Z Xach: I should probably get an SSD to make it faster. They're getting cheaper.
2015-06-23T17:10:18Z Shinmera: Still, that'll also uncover the same bug with verbose, I'm pretty sure. At least once you get to building halftone.
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2015-06-23T17:10:31Z Shinmera: Well, the same kind of symptomous bug anyway.
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2015-06-23T17:10:45Z Xach: Shinmera: it'll depend on the order in which things get built. Right now it's alphabetical.
2015-06-23T17:10:47Z Shinmera: I'm using a feature to de/activate logging statements in Qtools depending on whether Verbose is there.
2015-06-23T17:10:58Z Xach: For a while I built alphabetical descending to catch these kinds of things.
2015-06-23T17:11:42Z Shinmera: For this here it's not really a problem, I can just make it do a package check.
2015-06-23T17:12:17Z Xach: ok
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2015-06-23T17:14:04Z Shinmera: For Verbose/Qtools I'll have to think of something smarter, I guess.
2015-06-23T17:14:53Z Shinmera: Fix is in.
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2015-06-23T17:16:47Z Shinmera: Thanks to flash's help I might also get qt-libs working on Windows in time for the next release.
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2015-06-23T18:02:15Z Shinmera: Finally! https://twitter.com/Shinmera/status/613406693855232000
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2015-06-23T18:09:17Z eudoxia: Shinmera: congrats
2015-06-23T18:09:31Z eudoxia: does it download the Qt/smoke stuff or do you need to do that manually?
2015-06-23T18:09:41Z Shinmera: That's the next step.
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2015-06-23T18:09:50Z Shinmera: I only /just/ got it all compiled and loaded
2015-06-23T18:10:14Z eudoxia: ok
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2015-06-23T18:20:34Z Fade: nice job, Shinmera
2015-06-23T18:21:15Z Shinmera: Thanks. I only managed to push through the compile bug thanks to flash-'s help though.
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2015-06-23T18:42:17Z p_l: Shinmera: hooray for qtools on windows!
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2015-06-23T19:27:13Z aeth: Would a modern day LispM OS have its own C compiler or would it just support gcc and/or llvm?
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2015-06-23T19:29:21Z p_l: both options are plausible
2015-06-23T19:29:31Z foom: Maybe you'd make an llvm backend that emitted lisp expressions, like asm.js does for javascript. :)
2015-06-23T19:29:56Z foom: I meant like emscripten does for asm.js
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2015-06-23T19:31:06Z puchacz: hi, is there a library to run external programs on linux/unix etc portably across lisps?
2015-06-23T19:31:23Z puchacz: bordeax-threads but wrapping sb-ext:run-program instead of threads
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2015-06-23T19:31:59Z Xach: puchacz: trivial-run-program, uiop
2015-06-23T19:32:07Z puchacz: Xach: thx
2015-06-23T19:32:11Z foom: uiop:
2015-06-23T19:32:17Z foom: er, uiop:run-program
2015-06-23T19:32:43Z puchacz: foom, thx
2015-06-23T19:33:17Z nyef: aeth: Wait, why would a LispM have a C compiler?
2015-06-23T19:33:34Z Bike: so that i can still play DooM on it, obviously
2015-06-23T19:33:39Z nyef: Riiight.
2015-06-23T19:34:43Z nyef: I suspect that if I ever went down that route (my first attempt not having gotten particularly far), I'd "just" build a posixoid sandbox to run non-lisp programs in.
2015-06-23T19:34:55Z aeth: nyef: it depends on the approach to building a LispM, do you want to build bottom up (from the kernel or CPU) or top down (Lisp applications gradually replacing C dependencies)?
2015-06-23T19:35:21Z aeth: nyef: If you're doing top down, you'll have to CFFI quite a few C dependencies at first, but if you're doing bottom up, very few people will actually use the OS.
2015-06-23T19:35:27Z Bike: well, seriously though, nyef's right, a lot of the point of a lispm is you don't have to worry so much about a user doing stupid bullshit with C
2015-06-23T19:35:52Z Bike: so you can have built in GCs and stuff, which are kind of ruined if you have too much pointer arithmetic
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2015-06-23T19:36:01Z Bike: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_address_space_operating_system ~
2015-06-23T19:36:12Z nyef: aeth: How about plan C: Both! And, more, since you're not talking "portability" here, you don't need CFFI, you tie yourself to a particular host implementation.
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2015-06-23T19:36:45Z nyef: ... I still don't trust the single-address-space OS concept, for the most part.
2015-06-23T19:37:02Z Bike: it has problems, but ain't it cool
2015-06-23T19:37:08Z nyef: I mean, it works in some ways, but they're often easy to break and such.
2015-06-23T19:37:34Z aeth: nyef: It would be portable if you wrote it top down, actually. The idea is that you determine what you *actually* need by writing applications (probably starting with an emacs) and then you replace the dependencies one by one in CL with subsets of the dependencies that you actually use.
2015-06-23T19:38:14Z aeth: Then when the OS itself is ready you can port the applications and automatically support both Unix-like *and* the new OS, which means the applications get users.
2015-06-23T19:39:00Z nyef: ... Has it really been eight or ten years since I started seriously thinking about LispOS stuff?
2015-06-23T19:39:20Z aeth: I think everyone thinks about LispOS stuff.
2015-06-23T19:39:55Z nyef: Yeah, but I had SBCL producing a core file that ran on a "bare" machine.
2015-06-23T19:40:10Z aeth: There are some dependencies that will be pretty hard to replace, though. OpenGL, SQL databases, etc.
2015-06-23T19:40:37Z nyef: http://lisphacker.com/projects/sbcl-os/wip-screenshots/working-paging.png
2015-06-23T19:41:04Z nyef: OpenGL yes, mainly due to the largely unavailable hardware information.
2015-06-23T19:41:08Z aeth: right
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2015-06-23T19:41:30Z aeth: The graphics driver will be a huge issue.
2015-06-23T19:41:32Z nyef: SQL databases? Been written in Lisp before...
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2015-06-23T19:41:50Z nyef: But here's the thing: OpenGL is *not* a dependency for most things.
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2015-06-23T19:42:49Z aeth: Even web browsers use OpenGL now
2015-06-23T19:43:00Z p_l: nyef: well, Symbolics C worked fine for live recompiling C code from restarts to fix errors in libjpeg ;-)
2015-06-23T19:43:32Z aeth: Besides, if you could trick the OS to running existing (mostly C) Linux applications, including 3D ones, you make it considerably more useful.
2015-06-23T19:44:33Z p_l: aeth: OpenGL is not actually that problematic by definition, other than pre-existibg non-lisp blobs implementing drivers for hw (said drivers aren't exactly "C" either)
2015-06-23T19:44:55Z foom: most hardware has open source 3d graphics drivers available now.
2015-06-23T19:45:04Z aeth: limited
2015-06-23T19:45:08Z foom: It's certainly not as unavailable as it used to be.
2015-06-23T19:45:11Z foom: limited in what way?
2015-06-23T19:45:29Z aeth: Iirc, it's slower (not suitable for gaming) and on Linux it maxes out at OpenGL 3.3
2015-06-23T19:45:33Z aeth: Which is very far behind
2015-06-23T19:45:38Z aeth: There are some features of 4 implemented
2015-06-23T19:45:51Z foom: It may be slower, but is suitable for gaming.
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2015-06-23T19:46:09Z williamyao: depends on the game, heh
2015-06-23T19:46:17Z p_l: foom: even if they have full feature set for the hw, they often mix all the other 50% of the driver which is patching people's bad habits ;)
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2015-06-23T19:46:23Z p_l: *miss
2015-06-23T19:46:35Z aeth: yeah
2015-06-23T19:47:03Z aeth: Interestingly enough, perhaps newer graphics support will be easier than legacy graphics support. They want to reduce driver overhead, which I guess would also mean more complete FOSS drivers
2015-06-23T19:47:07Z Bike: the major problem i've had with 3d games on linux, beyond just windows-only, is this one game where my mobo firmware is too outdated, which somehow percolates up to not being able to play a particular FPS. it's kinda incredible
2015-06-23T19:47:16Z p_l: anyway, it's not really an issue if you create a specification for runtime environment
2015-06-23T19:47:16Z Bike: mesa is fine for most things 's what i mean
2015-06-23T19:47:19Z foom: Well, I run games on a linux box with open source video drivers all the time. (Noted, they're not the super-latest shoot-em-up.)
2015-06-23T19:47:49Z foom: Anyways, if you can run C programs in a web browser javascript sandbox, there's no reason you can't do the exact same thing on a lispm.
2015-06-23T19:48:21Z p_l: aeth: you can get to near zero driver overhead on opengl already, interestingly it still depends on the most proprietary information (gpu ISAs, compilers, etc)
2015-06-23T19:48:43Z aeth: what will probably wind up happening is a GNU Hurd scenario where you'll wind up running the LispOS applications on top of Linux rather than on top of the LispOS kernel
2015-06-23T19:49:06Z aeth: while the kernel takes 20 years to implement neat features like C sandboxes :-p
2015-06-23T19:50:19Z p_l: tl;dr - GL1.0 was friendlier to open source than AZDO,  Metal, Vulkan etc will be
2015-06-23T19:50:23Z aeth: LispOS/Linux
2015-06-23T19:52:00Z aeth: Hmm... You could always buy AMD for a few billion and open source everything.
2015-06-23T19:53:11Z aeth: NVDA has a market cap of 11.4B, AMD has a market cap of 2.02B. AMD gives you not just graphics but also CPUs so it's an extra bargain
2015-06-23T19:55:00Z aeth: Maybe you can even get AMD for less than $1B if there's a major market crash again
2015-06-23T19:55:40Z nyef: aeth: You might not be able to open-source everything if you buy AMD. Some of it is likely encumbered by other parties.
2015-06-23T19:56:10Z aeth: :(
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2015-06-23T19:57:57Z nyef: Yeah, IP "rights" can be a pain.
2015-06-23T19:58:23Z Cthulhux: does it make sense to start my own common lisp implementation? i want something like SBCL with the ECL compiler
2015-06-23T19:58:24Z Cthulhux: :<
2015-06-23T19:59:40Z Bike: Cthulhux: what does that mean, exactly? sbcl's compiler is its strong point
2015-06-23T20:00:04Z Cthulhux: i thought its portability is
2015-06-23T20:00:26Z aeth: too bad Google doesn't really, really, really need to open source graphics cards because they bought Motorola for $12.5B for patents so they could easily pay for all the related AMD IP
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2015-06-23T20:00:36Z aeth: They're the only company I think that could do it and has the means to do it
2015-06-23T20:00:39Z Cthulhux: the binaries are too large. i guess they can be made smaller when development is focused on this task
2015-06-23T20:00:42Z drmeister_: I'm amazed sometime at the conversations I walk into.
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2015-06-23T20:00:44Z Bike: nah, it only started running on such exotic systems as win32 relatively recently
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2015-06-23T20:01:03Z Bike: does ecl even need more than a c compiler?
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2015-06-23T20:01:26Z drmeister_: Cthulhux: Check out Clasp https://github.com/drmeister/clasp
2015-06-23T20:01:40Z p_l: ECL only needs ANSI C, and afaik whatever Boehm needs
2015-06-23T20:01:52Z Bike: so that probably runs on more than sbcl
2015-06-23T20:01:57Z Cthulhux: drmeister_: \o//
2015-06-23T20:02:01Z Shinmera: drmeister_: He wants small binaries. Clasp has gigantic binaries
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2015-06-23T20:02:14Z Cthulhux: a new implementation i didn't know yet
2015-06-23T20:02:19Z drmeister_: Right now it has gigantic binaries.
2015-06-23T20:02:20Z Cthulhux: but LLVM sounds like a plan
2015-06-23T20:02:21Z Shinmera: 236Mb for the boehm version on master.
2015-06-23T20:02:27Z p_l: maybe ECL doesn't run on a platform you want immediately, but it will probably take less time to hack into that platform
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2015-06-23T20:02:57Z drmeister_: Shinmera: That's because I haven't spent 10 seconds working on paring it down.
2015-06-23T20:03:01Z nyef: Mmm. Porting SBCL takes a bit of doing, and there's still the bit where the cores are on the order of 40-50 megs.
2015-06-23T20:03:08Z p_l: more than LLVM will support without writing your own target and/or access to "secret" commercial LLVM-based compiler source code
2015-06-23T20:03:57Z Shinmera: Anyway, if you want small binaries, write a tree shaker.
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2015-06-23T20:04:01Z p_l: aeth: as for open-sourcing - AMD already got into troubles just by splitting into two companies
2015-06-23T20:04:48Z drmeister_: Yes, LLVM is a plan.
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2015-06-23T20:05:41Z Cthulhux: the alternative would probably be the JVM. but the JVM sucks. :|
2015-06-23T20:05:45Z drmeister_: Anyway - anyone who comes onto #lisp talking about implementing their own Common Lisp needs to be told about Clasp.   If nothing else - it's a cautionary tale.
2015-06-23T20:05:52Z p_l: Cthulhux: well, ABCL works :)
2015-06-23T20:06:09Z Cthulhux: p_l: clojure on .net "works" too but it's not the real deal :p
2015-06-23T20:06:15Z nyef: drmeister_: How did that go? "If you can't be a good example, be a warning"? (-:
2015-06-23T20:06:20Z Cthulhux: drmeister_: well, good that i asked
2015-06-23T20:06:25Z drmeister_: nyef: Exactly.
2015-06-23T20:06:47Z p_l: Cthulhux: ABCL is pretty close to standard compliance, albeit a bit slower than SBCL or CCL
2015-06-23T20:07:26Z aeth: p_l: do you have a better/cheaper plan to get high quality 3D on a LispM?
2015-06-23T20:08:34Z Xach thinks "framethrower" is the best name for a piece of graphics hardware
2015-06-23T20:08:45Z p_l: aeth: implement an environment where you can at least run Mesa's compiler and implement AZDO-style API (though that would limit you only to somewhat recent hardware)
2015-06-23T20:09:11Z aeth: how hard would it be to pretend to be Linux for the graphics drivers' blobs?
2015-06-23T20:09:25Z p_l: quite hard, I think
2015-06-23T20:09:30Z nyef: aeth: Depends on if the blobs need a kernel shim or not.
2015-06-23T20:09:31Z aeth: Linux is open source so you can at least see their end of it
2015-06-23T20:09:45Z p_l: aeth: nvidia has closed source blob :D
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2015-06-23T20:10:10Z Bike: "flamethrower" works well with all the graphics people talking about insufficient cooling and fires
2015-06-23T20:10:21Z oGMo: Xach: what uses that? that's great
2015-06-23T20:10:32Z aeth: Bike: "flamethrower" would be the bitcoin mining software for "framethrower"
2015-06-23T20:11:11Z Xach: oGMo: symbolics graphics hardware
2015-06-23T20:11:31Z p_l: it was the VMEbus card for XL1200, iirc
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2015-06-23T20:12:14Z oGMo: Xach: nifty
2015-06-23T20:14:39Z p_l: btw, for interesting "LispOS" with full hw support? L4/Linux (or maybe lguest), plus LPC from Lisp to Linux side
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2015-06-23T20:19:46Z p_l: if you have "AZDO" capable hw (meaning GL_ARB_multi_draw_indirect, shaders, VBO, FBO, etc. etc), you could reduce GL calls to very small amount and other than that use a memory-mapped lisp array
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2015-06-23T20:23:06Z aeth: Personally, I think a good starting point for a LispOS would be making a Lisp-centered Linux distribution. A lot of the tools that are built for that could be reused in a proper LispOS that discourages C usage and isn't on the Linux kernel.
2015-06-23T20:24:09Z aeth: the LispDistro (Lispux?) could by default be preinstalled with SBCL, Guile, Racket, etc., and focus on e.g. stumpwm
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2015-06-23T20:24:51Z aeth: Maybe borrow a lot of ideas from https://nixos.org/
2015-06-23T20:25:05Z p_l: aeth: btw, have you seen Mezzano?
2015-06-23T20:25:29Z aeth: no, I've never been to Italy, unfortunately
2015-06-23T20:25:54Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mezzano_%28disambiguation%29
2015-06-23T20:25:59Z p_l: aeth: it's a lisp os
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2015-06-23T20:26:38Z nyef: Oh, right, Mezzano. I should get back to messing with that a bit.
2015-06-23T20:27:18Z p_l: aeth: https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano
2015-06-23T20:27:21Z aeth: https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano
2015-06-23T20:27:28Z aeth: You win
2015-06-23T20:27:56Z p_l: I think it's only missing an equivalent of Symbolics LIL to provide nicer blocks instead of the inline assembly used now
2015-06-23T20:28:06Z aeth: LIL?
2015-06-23T20:28:26Z p_l: aeth: LIL was pascal-semantics/lispy-syntax language used at Symbolics for writing microcode
2015-06-23T20:29:10Z aeth: so a low level lisp-like language?
2015-06-23T20:29:54Z p_l: aeth: a low level language implemented in lisp, which built microcode that then ran Lisp :)
2015-06-23T20:30:13Z aeth: right, if I ever do such a thing I am using the LLLLL name
2015-06-23T20:30:21Z aeth: possibly more if I can fit more Ls in there
2015-06-23T20:30:24Z Cthulhux: didn't the lisp machines have a lisp os?
2015-06-23T20:31:01Z Cthulhux: i would not use linux as a base for a future lisp os. enforcing the GPL is a huge drawback for success.,
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2015-06-23T20:31:47Z aeth: Cthulhux: I mean write the applications to Linux so they can run right now
2015-06-23T20:31:53Z aeth: and port them later
2015-06-23T20:32:00Z aeth: Not everything that is on Linux needs to be GPL
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2015-06-23T20:32:26Z Cthulhux: why does the kernel matter then? why not a better one, like l4 or *bsd
2015-06-23T20:32:28Z Cthulhux: ?
2015-06-23T20:32:43Z p_l: btw, the program written in LIL implemented those macroinstruction: http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/pdf/symbolics/I_Machine/Macroinstruction_Set.pdf
2015-06-23T20:32:48Z p_l: Cthulhux: hw support
2015-06-23T20:33:08Z aeth: Cthulhux: I suspect a BSD port would come if it is written for Linux, perhaps even with a lot of the stuff ported to OS X.
2015-06-23T20:33:22Z Cthulhux: p_l: start with netbsd then.
2015-06-23T20:33:49Z p_l: Cthulhux: Linux has bigger support for modern hw, unfortunately. NetBSD is good if you want to hijack it
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2015-06-23T20:34:08Z Cthulhux: which modern, relevant hardware does not have sufficient netbsd support?
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2015-06-23T20:34:16Z Cthulhux: an iphone? ;-)
2015-06-23T20:34:49Z p_l: Cthulhux: any modern GPU
2015-06-23T20:34:55Z aeth: Cthulhux: Linux has the users. More users = more testing. (The more popular OSes are proprietary, but I suspect writing to linux would allow a lot of it to be used on Unix-like OSes including OS X.)
2015-06-23T20:35:12Z aeth: Cthulhux: And we were just talking about the problem of GPU support. At least Linux has nvidia binary blobs
2015-06-23T20:35:40Z p_l: Cthulhux: anyway, I actually suggested L4 with Linux running besides the Lisp threads
2015-06-23T20:35:45Z Cthulhux: aeth: linux has users which are happy with dumbuntu and similar idiocracies. i doubt they are interested in the 574396th niche distribution  for an ancient programming language.
2015-06-23T20:35:57Z Cthulhux: aeth: *BSD uses linux's nvidia blobs
2015-06-23T20:35:58Z Cthulhux: ;o)
2015-06-23T20:36:23Z aeth: Cthulhux: actually a Linux distro with Lisps and Schemes included out of the box could find some niches, especially if it included Racket in its packages.
2015-06-23T20:36:36Z p_l: Cthulhux: correction - FreeBSD has proprietary nVidia drivers.
2015-06-23T20:36:38Z aeth: Cthulhux: I suspect Linux's driver support is better, given that you can play Steam games on it
2015-06-23T20:36:57Z Cthulhux: p_l: unsure about netbsd, they're working hard on it AFAIK
2015-06-23T20:37:07Z Cthulhux: aeth: not relevant her.
2015-06-23T20:37:07Z Cthulhux: e
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2015-06-23T20:37:18Z p_l: Cthulhux: the issue is that you can't use nvidia's blobs without their kernel code, either
2015-06-23T20:37:50Z p_l: which kinda implement their own gpu stack
2015-06-23T20:38:03Z Cthulhux: netbsd has rump kernels, allowing nice tricks.
2015-06-23T20:38:05Z nyef: Pull the hardware "documentation" from the nouveau project, maybe?
2015-06-23T20:38:07Z aeth: Cthulhux: but even if the distro itself had like 3 users presumably the software would run on Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu, etc.
2015-06-23T20:38:25Z p_l: nyef: that's only if you want to run Mesa
2015-06-23T20:38:25Z aeth: because it would be .lisp files and all of those distros have at least one lisp in their repos
2015-06-23T20:38:47Z p_l: anyway, it doesn't matter, because you don't have to expose the underlying host OS directly
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2015-06-23T20:39:04Z p_l: Cthulhux, aeth: Both of you should compile and run IRAF, and read through the docs :>
2015-06-23T20:39:26Z p_l: it's a particular case of "OS on OS", in this case implemented through libraries that abstracted whatever underlying OS it was running on
2015-06-23T20:39:40Z p_l: down to providing its own services for network filesystem
2015-06-23T20:39:46Z Cthulhux: p_l: you were right, netbsd 7 has radeon and intel, not nvidia :<
2015-06-23T20:40:03Z aeth: p_l: right, the point would be to write an OS on an OS to actually get users, considering that the actual LispOS would probably only have a subset of #lisp as the only users
2015-06-23T20:40:13Z aeth: at least in my plan
2015-06-23T20:40:13Z p_l: because astronomy is serious bsns, and who cares if you write an OS while writing image reduction software
2015-06-23T20:40:17Z aeth: Everyone has their own LispM plan
2015-06-23T20:41:01Z aeth: And an OS in an OS is possible. After all, emacs exists.
2015-06-23T20:41:11Z p_l: before Mezzano, the most recent known LispOS case was due to hw breakdown which led the developer to replace MS DOS functionality directly with his lisp code and making the device boot directly into it
2015-06-23T20:41:32Z p_l: (it was also probably the only LispM phone)
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2015-06-23T20:42:05Z pjb: aeth: a lisp machine would have a different processor than a c machine.  All the common microprocessors you find today are c machines.  With a different processor, you would have to write a different backend for gcc.
2015-06-23T20:42:10Z nyef: And before THAT would probably be Movitz?
2015-06-23T20:42:46Z pjb: nyef: the lisp machines had the zeta c compiler.
2015-06-23T20:43:02Z p_l: nyef: hmm... I actually think Movitz was *after* the infamous Nokia Communicator with LispOS
2015-06-23T20:43:29Z nyef: Yeah, I vaguely remember Zeta-C...
2015-06-23T20:43:33Z p_l: some stuff depends on how we classify patch releases of VLM2
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2015-06-23T20:44:12Z drmeister_: I should add compiler macro support to my bootstrapping Clasp compiler.  I could speed up functions like +, -, < etc. by converting them into nested calls to binary functions and thus eliminate consing of &REST arguments.
2015-06-23T20:44:52Z p_l: nyef: Kalman Reti's VLM demo has nice example of Zeta-C in action
2015-06-23T20:45:26Z nyef: I'm really sorry I missed that boston-lisp-meeting. /-:
2015-06-23T20:45:27Z Fade: p_l: do you have linkage to that demo?
2015-06-23T20:46:15Z drmeister_: This line of the CLHS 3.2.2.1.1 is puzzling me:  "The form passed to the compiler macro function can either be a list whose car is the function name, or a list whose car is funcall and whose cadr is a list (function name); note that this affects destructuring of the form argument by the compiler macro function. define-compiler-macro arranges for
2015-06-23T20:46:15Z drmeister_: destructuring of arguments to be performed correctly for both possible formats."
2015-06-23T20:46:30Z pjb: I've made a hangman.app with Objective-C/Xcode, and another with ccl. They're both the exact same size 64x64 pixels, on the desktop.
2015-06-23T20:46:35Z p_l: including going into restart on a bug, recompiling C code, rerunning with fixed code
2015-06-23T20:46:42Z drmeister_: The "or a list whose car is funcall and whose cadr is a list (function name) - what is that for?
2015-06-23T20:47:15Z pjb: Shinmera: an alternative is to use clicc or mocl.
2015-06-23T20:47:24Z pjb: alternative to the tree shaker.
2015-06-23T20:47:28Z p_l: Fade: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4-YnLpLgtk
2015-06-23T20:47:54Z Xach: drmeister_: I don't know for sure, but it sounds a little like (funcall (setf foo) ...)
2015-06-23T20:47:55Z p_l: ^ Kalman Reti's OpenGenera demo, including a demonstration of Zeta-C compiling libjpeg
2015-06-23T20:48:59Z p_l: I also suspect that demo would be unrunnable on XL1200 ;)
2015-06-23T20:49:05Z Fade: thanks!
2015-06-23T20:49:11Z drmeister_: Xach: Yeah, or any (funcall #'foo ...) for that matter.  I guess the idea is that compiler macros are there to replace functions with macros and functions can be invoked using (funcall #'FOO ...)
2015-06-23T20:49:26Z drmeister_: But what about (apply #'foo ...)?
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2015-06-23T20:49:52Z p_l: I wonder if anyone updated Linj in some time
2015-06-23T20:49:52Z Xach: drmeister_: I don't think so
2015-06-23T20:49:59Z Shinmera: You can't compile-time optimise apply, really.
2015-06-23T20:50:03Z pjb: drmeister: clasp combined difficulties. I'm sure writing a CL could be performed much more easily and quickly.  *IF* you know Common Lisp, and the standard, very well from the start, and have some experience writing CL implementations.
2015-06-23T20:50:08Z Xach: drmeister_: (FUNCTION FOO) is not a function name but (SETF FOO) is
2015-06-23T20:50:39Z drmeister_: pjb: I'm not sure what your point is?
2015-06-23T20:50:43Z pjb: drmeister: there are a lot of parts in the specifications that allow for very small implementations with a lot of shortcuts.
2015-06-23T20:50:43Z aeth: pjb: if there are 3 users of LispOS there will probably be 1 user of LispOS not on x86_64
2015-06-23T20:51:46Z aeth: (or ARM)
2015-06-23T20:51:55Z pjb: aeth: if you write a lisp os, you won't want to have random C code breaking it. So if you don't run on a lisp processor with the hardware protections, you will run on a lisp virtual machine
2015-06-23T20:52:31Z drmeister_: Xach: I read:  "or a list whose car is funcall and whose cadr is a list (function name)"  I'm not seeing how that matches (funcall (setf foo) ...)
2015-06-23T20:53:01Z Xach: drmeister_: Ok, that makes more sense. I read the parenthetical as clarifying, not literal.
2015-06-23T20:53:18Z Xach: drmeister_: that is, "a list (i.e. a function name)"
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2015-06-23T20:53:28Z Xach: sorry for the diversion!
2015-06-23T20:53:36Z Xach squirts ink and jets away
2015-06-23T20:53:40Z Bike: drmeister_: compiler macros can run on (foo ...) or (funcall #'foo ...), they don't work with apply forms. and if it makes you feel better ccl fucks up the funcall case anyway
2015-06-23T20:53:43Z drmeister_: Xach: No problem, that's why I'm asking - I don't want to misinterpret things and I'm trying to understand the underlying cause.
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2015-06-23T20:54:07Z drmeister_: Bike: It does make me feel better :-)
2015-06-23T20:54:18Z Bike: you could hypothetically do some compile time optimizations on apply, but compiler macros don't do them
2015-06-23T20:54:47Z Bike: also i've never heard of a compiler macro on a setf function, but it's probably possible.
2015-06-23T20:54:50Z drmeister_: It sounds like if I write a compiler macro for + it should be able to expand (+ x y z) and (funcall #'+ x y z) but not (apply #'+ x y z).
2015-06-23T20:55:03Z Bike: correct.
2015-06-23T20:55:11Z drmeister_: I've always thought funcall and apply were two variants of the same thing.
2015-06-23T20:55:34Z drmeister_: It strikes me as a bit odd that compiler macros treat them differently.
2015-06-23T20:55:40Z Bike: compiler macros work on static code. if you have (funcall #'+ x y z) you know that + is getting three arguments, and those three forms can be passed to compiler macro function
2015-06-23T20:55:43Z Shinmera: Apply must do run time dispatch.
2015-06-23T20:55:50Z Bike: whereas an apply could have however many arguments
2015-06-23T20:56:01Z drmeister_: Oh - you guys are really sharp - that makes sense.
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2015-06-23T20:56:37Z Bike: say you had (define-compiler-macro foo (a b) ...) and then had (apply #'foo bar), what forms would you pass as a and b?
2015-06-23T20:56:40Z drmeister_: I feel good about that.
2015-06-23T20:56:56Z drmeister_: Right - that makes perfect sense.
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2015-06-23T20:57:33Z p_l: btw, to those not yet acquaintained with the docs: http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/pdf/symbolics/
2015-06-23T20:57:34Z pjb: drmeister_:  (funcall #'+ x y z) is equivalent to (apply #'+ x y z '()) and I don't see how they couldn't be opencoded to the same inlined (+ x y z) code.
2015-06-23T20:58:03Z scherzo: why turbolence?
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2015-06-23T20:58:16Z Bike: hah?
2015-06-23T20:58:29Z scherzo: turbulence
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2015-06-23T20:58:43Z p_l: I see no turbulence here
2015-06-23T20:58:45Z Bike: who said anything about turbulence?
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2015-06-23T21:00:00Z drmeister_: Xach: No problem, I appreciate the feedback.
2015-06-23T21:00:30Z p_l curiously notes that he has banned all of SoCal TWC userbase
2015-06-23T21:01:38Z p_l: or close to it
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2015-06-23T21:09:36Z emaczen: Can anybody help me with setting up ECL for android?
2015-06-23T21:09:52Z emaczen: I've downloaded the ecl-android project from git, and followed the instructions, but nothing seems to work for me.
2015-06-23T21:10:17Z aeth: I wonder how much a Lisp CPU would cost to make
2015-06-23T21:10:19Z emaczen: The install instructions for Linux just say install gcc-multilib
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2015-06-23T21:10:54Z Bike: just get an fpga to play with
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2015-06-23T21:11:11Z aeth: FPGAs would work?
2015-06-23T21:11:25Z emaczen: ls
2015-06-23T21:11:54Z Bike: for prototyping, sure. unless you want to try writing vhdl and then paying whatever nutty amount to fabricate it
2015-06-23T21:12:01Z aeth: In 2032 every motherboard will have a Lisp FPGA :-P
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2015-06-23T21:14:44Z Shinmera: I had a digital circuits class this semester where we used Verilog. I don't feel compelled to use it again.
2015-06-23T21:15:23Z Bike: verilog is... loose. vhdl is stricter which means you type a lot more but hey
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2015-06-23T21:16:45Z Shinmera: Either way, I didn't have much fun with it, and from what I heard I wouldn't have with VHDL either
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2015-06-23T21:17:11Z aeth: that's because all the fun is to be had in Lisp
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2015-06-23T21:18:07Z Bike: not everyone likes watching logic analyzer traces. shocking but true...
2015-06-23T21:18:55Z aeth: I wonder how large of a team would be needed to make a modern LispM, from a web browser and IDE down to a CPU
2015-06-23T21:18:56Z pjb: Wonder why, they're quite nice looking.
2015-06-23T21:19:09Z aeth: it would probably take a lot more than the original lispm's
2015-06-23T21:19:35Z pjb: Since you wouldn't be able to pay for a team as competent as the original?
2015-06-23T21:19:48Z aeth: pjb: there's more things that need to be supported
2015-06-23T21:19:58Z aeth: pjb: and most of those things are a mess, e.g. the web browser
2015-06-23T21:20:12Z aeth: If you want a pure Lisp LispM, you'd have to implement a fast-enough JavaScript in Lisp
2015-06-23T21:21:01Z aeth: and web browsers are basically designed to be hard to implement, e.g. the way they handle bad HTML instead of failing to render if the HTML is bad.
2015-06-23T21:21:02Z nyef: aeth: How large of a team? One, if you don't mind it taking a long time.
2015-06-23T21:21:30Z aeth: nyef: the problem is by the time the one person finishes, everything that's expected in an OS will be completely different
2015-06-23T21:21:53Z aeth: What if no one uses a web browser in 2035 and everything's native again?
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2015-06-23T21:24:58Z aeth: nyef: A full OS is a very parallel task to do, if we're using the GNU/Linux definition rather than the Windows definition (Windows ships with so few things). Two people might make the OS in almost half the time as one person
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2015-06-23T21:25:29Z nyef: Sure, sure.
2015-06-23T21:25:45Z aeth: If one person is spending all their time on CLIM, another person can be working on stuff that doesn't require GUIs.
2015-06-23T21:25:55Z nyef: I'm just saying, if you're really set on this, don't let not having a team stop you.
2015-06-23T21:26:16Z pjb: Take example on drmeister.
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2015-06-23T21:26:36Z aeth: nyef: of course not, what's the median Lisp programmer wage in the US? Something close to $100,000?
2015-06-23T21:26:36Z Bike: to be fair drmeister has tenure and department of defense funding
2015-06-23T21:26:59Z pjb: But still, he's doing clasp all by himself (AFAIK).
2015-06-23T21:27:37Z nyef: He's doing clasp all by himself, except for the compiler, where he's importing stuff from beach as fast as beach is writing it.
2015-06-23T21:27:48Z Bike: he has some grad students, or something. i talked with one of em on github briefly
2015-06-23T21:27:59Z drmeister_: drmeister HAD department of defense funding - it ended last year.
2015-06-23T21:28:01Z aeth: ah, using grad students would be a cheap way to get a team :-p
2015-06-23T21:28:04Z nyef: aeth: I'm probably dragging the mean down, if not necessarily the median. /-:
2015-06-23T21:28:24Z Cthulhux: hm.
2015-06-23T21:28:25Z Cthulhux: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/closure/
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2015-06-23T21:28:37Z aeth: nyef: Well I'm just guessing based on (1) seniority (CL's prime was before the mid 1990s) and (2) rarity and (3) complexity
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2015-06-23T21:29:04Z drmeister_: drmeister HAS graduate students who make molecules, none of them do software development on Clasp
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2015-06-23T21:29:48Z aeth: nyef: I don't have numbers with me
2015-06-23T21:29:49Z drmeister_: There's this perception that graduate students are a "cheap source of labor" - they aren't - they are students.
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2015-06-23T21:30:18Z drmeister_: They are not very good at what they do because they are learning.  As soon as they become good they finish up and leave.
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2015-06-23T21:30:19Z nyef: They are students, thus require far, far more time spent in mentoring them?
2015-06-23T21:30:24Z Bike: and that's why they don't get to unionize
2015-06-23T21:30:34Z aeth: this says $64,670. http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Skill=LISP/Salary
2015-06-23T21:30:41Z aeth: apparently I'm way wrong
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2015-06-23T21:30:57Z drmeister_: I spend a lot of time mentoring students.
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2015-06-23T21:31:58Z skrue: how ineffective. get a job at the patent office
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2015-06-23T21:32:21Z pjb: and then wonder why so many dumb pattents are issued.
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2015-06-23T21:35:19Z PuercoPop: Is the executable produced by Buildapp 'self-contained'? That is, can I use them in another machine that doesn't have the lisp implementation used to build it installed?
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2015-06-23T21:37:15Z aeth: still trying to find more data, the problem is most "median salary" queries are going to be crap
2015-06-23T21:37:27Z aeth: I remember when Google used to produce good results. Then SEO came along. Welcome back to 1999.
2015-06-23T21:37:37Z PuercoPop: aeth: The JS to CL has already been implemented afaik: http://marijnhaverbeke.nl/cl-javascript/
2015-06-23T21:38:02Z aeth: PuercoPop: I doubt it's anywhere near fast enough as web browsers expect, though. Thanks to Chrome.
2015-06-23T21:38:21Z spyrosoft: It's true. JS is screaming fast these days.
2015-06-23T21:38:55Z aeth: even the link says "the new generation... beats it by... a factor 4 or so"
2015-06-23T21:39:50Z aeth: Now with wasm we'll be seeing native C apps being compiled into the web browser. Whether this is a good idea or not, a solid web browser will be necessary for a lispm to make up for the lack of 3rd party applications
2015-06-23T21:39:58Z Cthulhux: JavaScript is the new BASIC < lol
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2015-06-23T21:40:18Z Cthulhux: as in: it sucks?
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2015-06-23T21:43:47Z aeth: huge hail I will probably lose power
2015-06-23T21:44:10Z akkad: "but JS is scheme!"
2015-06-23T21:44:32Z aeth: larger than golf ball sized hail in my area now
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2015-06-23T21:44:49Z PuercoPop: aeth: According to its author it was at ~4x near v8 when it launched. But the idea of a new OS should be not to repeat all the mistakes of the current crop of OS. So 'compatibility' shouldn't be a priority.
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2015-06-23T21:45:19Z aeth: PuercoPop: if there is one thing that needs to run it's a web browser, though
2015-06-23T21:45:27Z aeth: PuercoPop: you can probably get by without much else if you have one
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2015-06-23T21:46:08Z aeth: and if you don't have one you might not be able to access all of the documentation for the software you're running on the OS because everyone relies on the web
2015-06-23T21:46:17Z PuercoPop: iirc one of Plan 9 developer said 80% of the work was reimplementing standards.
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2015-06-23T21:47:01Z aeth: you will also need to support PDF (you won't even be able to find out what r7rs is without one if you want to write a Scheme for it)
2015-06-23T21:47:08Z aeth: and a bunch of other stuff
2015-06-23T21:47:49Z Cthulhux:  <akkad> "but JS is scheme!" << as in: it sucks?
2015-06-23T21:47:51Z aeth: most web browsers these days seem to have PDF built in, though, so reaching feature parity with Firefox (except possibly video and definitely plug-ins like Flash) would probably handle most things.
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2015-06-23T21:47:54Z PuercoPop: If you are going to do the same thing as the Linux or Windows, why would I want to use them instead of the existing counter parts?
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2015-06-23T21:48:21Z PuercoPop: There is PDF.js so if you implement the web browser you can get the PDF viewer 'for free'
2015-06-23T21:48:30Z aeth: @sPuercoPop: if you don't support the data formats used by other OSes, how do you expect to be able to "talk" to it?
2015-06-23T21:48:39Z aeth: lol buggy terminal inserting @s
2015-06-23T21:48:57Z aeth: I think I hit control + windows + S or something
2015-06-23T21:49:40Z aeth: PuercoPop: I suspect that a lispy web browser would much rather import a local PDF viewer than use pdf.js because it wouldn't want to use js to reimplement everything
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2015-06-23T21:50:31Z aeth: As much as a lot of people don't like all the bad decisions behind the web, I suspect that "web server" will be one of the things that this OS will be able to do
2015-06-23T21:52:29Z PuercoPop: I see the gain in being able to consume and interact with the rest of the world. What I'm trying to get at is the cost to do so. The trade-off may not be worth it. Anyhow my 2c.
2015-06-23T21:52:37Z nyef: "web server" will probably be one of the FIRST things a LispOS can do.
2015-06-23T21:52:49Z aeth: nyef: way before web browser. There's already hunchentoot
2015-06-23T21:53:10Z nyef: Exactly. You "just" need a TCP stack and a VM.
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2015-06-23T21:53:39Z aeth: web browser will require CLIM or something new
2015-06-23T21:53:46Z aeth: and we don't even have a functional CLIM apparently
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2015-06-23T21:54:23Z aeth: A lot of the things required to get a terminal, a web browser, and an emacs will probably cover quite a few use cases if abstracted into general purpose libraries
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2015-06-23T21:57:56Z aeth: Btw, this has Lisp at around $80,000. So I think every website that has concrete numbers for languages are probably going to have wildly different numbers. https://gooroo.io/GoorooTHINK/Article/16284/Programming-languages--salaries-and-demand-March-2015/18214
2015-06-23T21:58:14Z Bike: well, yeah. who's even surveying that?
2015-06-23T21:58:48Z aeth: I suspect most of the costs for developing this would be salaries
2015-06-23T21:59:33Z aeth: anywhere from $60k to $120k per programmer per year
2015-06-23T22:00:16Z aeth: Even assuming a *max* team of 20 (Lisp teams are small) that's a max of $1,200,000 a year before any other expenses are taken into account for the LispOS
2015-06-23T22:03:45Z jasom: aeth: rule of thumb is to double salary for cost of employing an engineer
2015-06-23T22:04:35Z aeth: ok so now we have a new range of $1,200,000 to $2,400,000 a year
2015-06-23T22:04:51Z jasom: for a team of 10?
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2015-06-23T22:05:13Z aeth: The salaries could be anywhere from $60k to $120k because concrete numbers don't really exist.
2015-06-23T22:05:36Z aeth: So for a team of 20 with the rule of thumb of doubling to get the expense, that makes the expense $1.2M to $2.4M
2015-06-23T22:06:20Z aeth: so with just the engineers into account that makes the yearly expense of a LispOS $1.2M to $2.4M (if it's not done as a hobby by one person!)
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2015-06-23T22:07:31Z jasom: (* 20 60000 2) => 2400000
2015-06-23T22:07:33Z nyef: Are you actually looking to put together a company to do this, or is this just a thought experiment?
2015-06-23T22:07:43Z aeth: jasom: oh you're right
2015-06-23T22:07:47Z aeth: jasom: I was calculating for a team of 10
2015-06-23T22:07:48Z aeth: sorry
2015-06-23T22:08:02Z jasom: 10 is probably large enough anyway
2015-06-23T22:08:29Z jasom: you don't halve your time when you double your team size, so no need to blow the budget
2015-06-23T22:08:38Z aeth: nyef: it's a hypothetical at the moment; I don't have millions, sorry
2015-06-23T22:09:07Z nyef: So, the point is not actually to make any software?
2015-06-23T22:09:31Z aeth: nyef: well I was just wondering how much a modern lispm would cost
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2015-06-23T22:09:47Z aeth: nyef: if someone does all the software themselves for free on their own time obviously this calculation doesn't apply
2015-06-23T22:09:51Z nyef: About $200-500, same as any other computer. d-:
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2015-06-23T22:10:12Z aeth: nyef: I'm guessing that it would actually sell for at least $1,000
2015-06-23T22:10:27Z aeth: it's not mass-market and the hardware would probably be more powerful than ordinary people want
2015-06-23T22:10:29Z nyef: Oh, so it's a MAC. d-:
2015-06-23T22:10:47Z aeth: I built a computer for about $1,200 in 2010 iirc
2015-06-23T22:10:51Z aeth: it was not a Mac
2015-06-23T22:11:01Z aeth: but it is still usable in 2015 because I built it myself and put the money in
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2015-06-23T22:12:42Z aeth: I don't think a $200 PC would still be usable
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2015-06-23T22:12:49Z nyef: Hah!
2015-06-23T22:13:15Z nyef: I'm using a ThinkPad X61t. Go have a look at prices on eBay. d-:
2015-06-23T22:13:21Z Bike: typing this on a $200 laptop, aw yeah
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2015-06-23T22:13:52Z Bike: rich people like aeth the AMD CEO don't understand we little people.
2015-06-23T22:14:43Z nyef: Cost me $100 for this one, though I swapped in the disk, RAM, and screen from my previous X61t, and the screen itself was from an X60t (because for some reason it costs less to buy an X60t with a good screen and an X61t with the worse screen than it does to just get an X61t with the good screen).
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2015-06-23T22:16:17Z nyef: The last several computers I've bought have all been at least ten years old.
2015-06-23T22:17:47Z aeth: Bike: rich people? that was like... all my spare money
2015-06-23T22:18:04Z Bike: if you run AMD you can get more
2015-06-23T22:18:14Z aeth: but I run linux so if I ran AMD I'd get less
2015-06-23T22:18:34Z aeth: afaik, unless it's changed, both nouveau and nvidia proprietary are better than the options for AMD
2015-06-23T22:18:50Z jasom: aeth: I think they were talking CPU not GPU
2015-06-23T22:18:50Z aeth: although if I had AMD I probably would've been in Bitcoin early enough to profit from it
2015-06-23T22:18:57Z aeth: ah
2015-06-23T22:19:08Z aeth: jasom: well my motherboard said to use intel so maybe I'm just a sucker
2015-06-23T22:19:18Z aeth: I didn't want to risk a non-functional computer
2015-06-23T22:19:19Z jasom: aeth: you would need a different motherboard too
2015-06-23T22:19:31Z jasom: AMD and Intel are not socket-compatible
2015-06-23T22:19:35Z aeth: ah
2015-06-23T22:19:40Z aeth: so I was right to get intel
2015-06-23T22:20:15Z jasom: My first AMD was a 386DX/40
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2015-06-23T22:42:50Z aeth: This was a productive discussion, I learned some more about design
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2015-06-24T00:10:23Z republican_devil: hows lisp? anyone running a successful startup?
2015-06-24T00:10:30Z republican_devil: coreserver and picolisp look cool
2015-06-24T00:10:36Z republican_devil: racket continue framework too
2015-06-24T00:10:37Z republican_devil: and weblocks
2015-06-24T00:10:40Z republican_devil: antiweb
2015-06-24T00:10:43Z republican_devil: and hek hunchentoot
2015-06-24T00:10:57Z republican_devil: esp when paired with cl-prevayler
2015-06-24T00:11:01Z republican_devil: looks liek fast combo
2015-06-24T00:11:24Z Cthulhux: i plan to found a startup some time this year
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2015-06-24T00:11:40Z republican_devil: what kinda one?
2015-06-24T00:11:42Z Cthulhux: not sure about whether to grow it on py3 or on lisp yet
2015-06-24T00:11:48Z republican_devil: pypy?
2015-06-24T00:11:52Z Cthulhux: web-based event planning
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2015-06-24T00:14:24Z akkad: clojure lures a lot in
2015-06-24T00:15:06Z Cthulhux: clojure is for sissies
2015-06-24T00:15:22Z Cthulhux: lisp for people who hate learning how to code.
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2015-06-24T00:16:46Z PuercoPop: minion: memo for redline6561: I've pushed some work to the cli-commands branch of coleslaw. It uses buildapp to generate a binary with 4 commands build/clean/rebuild/serve. It has some rough edges, with error reporting and getting the Makefile to be ccl friendly (I have to take a look at pgloader's Makefile in more detail). I'll comment on the PR with more detail. Give it a try if you can over the weekend and let me
2015-06-24T00:16:46Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell redline6561 when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-06-24T00:16:47Z PuercoPop:  know what you think
2015-06-24T00:17:29Z nyef: PuercoPop: The last bit of that got cut off from what minion recorded.
2015-06-24T00:18:51Z PuercoPop: I saw, there is always public logging ^_^
2015-06-24T00:19:05Z nyef: Fair enough, then.
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2015-06-24T00:57:29Z republican_devil: for people who hate learning how to code?
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2015-06-24T00:57:30Z republican_devil: how so?
2015-06-24T00:57:35Z republican_devil: I kinda hate leanring how to code
2015-06-24T00:57:42Z republican_devil: maybe lisp is for me even more than ever
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2015-06-24T00:59:30Z Xach: What has changed in the last 10 years of your fumbling around in the dark?
2015-06-24T01:00:01Z mdln: Xach: I can buy alchohol
2015-06-24T01:00:10Z mdln: :p
2015-06-24T01:00:22Z republican_devil: well I kinda understand up to predicatews
2015-06-24T01:00:36Z republican_devil: its so hard to be able to code up simple small exmple programs for me in lisp
2015-06-24T01:00:49Z republican_devil: sp compared to tcl n shell
2015-06-24T01:01:04Z republican_devil: and I fear cmu and clisp have bad multiprocessing?
2015-06-24T01:01:13Z republican_devil: or do things liek contextL solve that?
2015-06-24T01:01:14Z republican_devil: or csp for lisp
2015-06-24T01:01:28Z republican_devil: I am still intrigued to elarn the most peorful lang
2015-06-24T01:01:30Z mdln: that's something Clasp touts to improve iirc
2015-06-24T01:01:35Z republican_devil: and let over lambda I am guna read sometime
2015-06-24T01:02:31Z Xach: republican_devil: go away. don't keep coming back to #lisp.
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2015-06-24T01:03:42Z republican_devil: so mean
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2015-06-24T01:04:34Z mdln: He should have learned swift
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2015-06-24T01:05:19Z Xach: Gavin Schuette, aka Johannes Falcone, aka Marty Champions, aka republican_devil, aka oracle_dontdoit, has been hassling #lisp and other programming discussions for about 10 years.
2015-06-24T01:06:42Z mdln: How do you not learn a language in 10 years? How could someone do that and still be interested?
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2015-06-24T01:10:11Z akkad: knowing a language is not a bool
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2015-06-24T01:13:28Z joshe: yes but it may be coerced to a bool
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2015-06-24T01:16:34Z Xach: Ah, a face to the name. https://www.youtube.com/user/sirjohnahayfalcon/videos is also gavino.
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2015-06-24T02:20:30Z emaczen: pjb: Where can I obtain the package: "com.informatimago.objective-c.lower"
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2015-06-24T02:20:48Z emaczen: Is there a slime facility that would answer this question for me?
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2015-06-24T02:21:12Z emaczen: I used system-apropos from quicklisp
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2015-06-24T02:45:33Z pjb: emaczen: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.objcl) ; I don't know if there's a map from package to systems.
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2015-06-24T04:21:58Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-06-24T04:22:44Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-06-24T04:34:48Z theos: did republican_devil get klined?
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2015-06-24T06:02:31Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2015-06-24T06:05:14Z kami``: Good morning #lisp
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2015-06-24T06:42:57Z jackdaniel: Bike: wrt ECL, it doesn't even need C compiler on target machine (bytecmp is an alternative, default on windows for instance)
2015-06-24T06:43:03Z jackdaniel: good morning all
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2015-06-24T08:01:04Z emaczen: Is the ecl mailing list still the place to ask ECL questions?
2015-06-24T08:01:04Z minion: emaczen, memo from pjb: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.objcl)
2015-06-24T08:02:28Z emaczen: minion: memo for pjb: Thanks so much! I finally finished the CurrencyConverter tutorial without a NIB file! lol
2015-06-24T08:02:28Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell pjb when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-06-24T08:03:34Z jackdaniel: emaczen: yes
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2015-06-24T08:05:29Z emaczen: jackdaniel: Cool, I just posted.
2015-06-24T08:05:37Z emaczen: I was surprised that my issue about two months ago was the latest post.
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2015-06-24T08:06:22Z emaczen: jackdaniel: Does evrim hangout here at all?
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2015-06-24T08:07:18Z jackdaniel: emaczen: I don't really know, he got silent a few weeks ago wrt mail tough
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2015-06-24T08:08:40Z jackdaniel: emaczen: my best shot (didn't try ecl on android yet, but I'm going to merge it soon, so I'll have to test it) is that you havent copied all files
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2015-06-24T08:09:06Z jackdaniel: ecl binary is no-use without libecl and stuff related to it
2015-06-24T08:09:14Z jackdaniel: in lib directory
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2015-06-24T08:10:20Z jackdaniel: someone asked yesterday on ml, if it's possible to create single binary
2015-06-24T08:10:51Z emaczen: jackdaniel: Ok that makes sense, I'll just move the whole directory over then.
2015-06-24T08:11:11Z emaczen: I think I'm having more root issues than anything, which is more of an android problem
2015-06-24T08:11:14Z jackdaniel: if android has ldd, then check, if ecl finds necessary libs
2015-06-24T08:11:26Z jackdaniel: I'd say ecl doesn't require root
2015-06-24T08:12:04Z emaczen: Where do I put the files? I tried to put "ecl" in the "/" directory and then when I tried to run it from the shell, it told me that I didn't have permission.
2015-06-24T08:13:05Z jackdaniel: it might be that initramdisk (which is mounted at / on android) doesn't have exec permission, or you have to make chmod +x ecl - but I'd put it just on /system/bin
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2015-06-24T08:14:52Z akkad: aws
2015-06-24T08:17:19Z Posterdati: hi
2015-06-24T08:17:29Z Posterdati: please I need help with iolib on ecl: #<Syscall "lfp_clock_gettime" signalled error EFAULT(14) "Bad address">
2015-06-24T08:18:08Z emaczen: Jackdaniel: Thanks for the help, I'll keep watching the mailing list and read about the android OS and see what I can do on my physical device or see if an emulator would be easier.
2015-06-24T08:18:57Z jackdaniel: yw :) if you succeed, it would be great if you could create wiki page on gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp
2015-06-24T08:19:07Z jackdaniel: if you have time ofc
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2015-06-24T08:20:23Z ecraven: does clsql-oracle not exist any longer, or is it just not in quicklisp?
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2015-06-24T08:40:06Z loz: ecraven: isn't it just in clsql?
2015-06-24T08:40:35Z ecraven: seems not, I just downloaded the clsql tarball, put it in local-projects, quickloaded that, and things seem to work
2015-06-24T08:41:21Z loz: ecraven: quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/clsql-20150302-git/db-oracle
2015-06-24T08:41:31Z loz: i see it here
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2015-06-24T08:44:36Z ecraven: ah, I might have to update quicklisp
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2015-06-24T10:27:02Z pjb: Posterdati: lfp is a separate C library. You could try to call this function from a little C program and see how it works.
2015-06-24T10:27:02Z minion: pjb, memo from emaczen: Thanks so much! I finally finished the CurrencyConverter tutorial without a NIB file! lol
2015-06-24T10:27:34Z pjb: Posterdati: probably, you didn't pass it a pointer to a correctly allocated memory block.
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2015-06-24T10:43:20Z Cthulhux: is there a recommended way to automatically quickload a missing package?
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2015-06-24T10:52:32Z H4ns: Cthulhux: ql:quickload loads dependencies automatically
2015-06-24T10:54:00Z Cthulhux: i mean, right from the lisp file itself
2015-06-24T10:54:13Z H4ns: Cthulhux: use asdf
2015-06-24T10:54:46Z Cthulhux: does that mean i can't automatize qucikloading?
2015-06-24T10:55:23Z jackdaniel: Cthulhux: you can put in your implementation rc file ie (ql:quickload #:fireworks) and it will load fireworks
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2015-06-24T10:56:03Z Cthulhux: jackdaniel: thanks :-)
2015-06-24T10:56:08Z jackdaniel: yw
2015-06-24T10:56:30Z dtw: "Automatically" and "missing package" could mean that the Lisp reader would notice a missing package and automatically try to find a ASDF system with similar name. :-)
2015-06-24T10:57:20Z Cthulhux: missing packages are usually detected indeed. right?
2015-06-24T11:02:16Z H4ns: Cthulhux: if you mean that your lisp will signal an error when you use a symbol with a package name prefix that does not refer to an existing package.
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2015-06-24T11:02:37Z H4ns: Cthulhux: but you need to know that a lisp package is something entirely different from an asdf system.
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2015-06-24T11:04:57Z dim: is http://weitz.de/packages.html considered helpful?
2015-06-24T11:04:57Z H4ns: Cthulhux: and you also need to know that if you refer to something that you install from quicklisp as "package", confusion will ensue.
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2015-06-24T11:06:45Z ecraven: loz: interesting, it is there, but I can't load it.. (ql:quickload 'clsql-oracle) raises an error
2015-06-24T11:06:58Z ecraven: I don't know enough about quicklisp to find out why the asd file is there, but apparently not used
2015-06-24T11:07:05Z Cthulhux: so qhat are quicklisp non-packages called? :/
2015-06-24T11:07:08Z Cthulhux: *what
2015-06-24T11:07:16Z loz: ecraven: i think it is loaded by clsql itself
2015-06-24T11:07:18Z mood: Cthulhux: systems, usually
2015-06-24T11:07:19Z H4ns: Cthulhux: systems
2015-06-24T11:07:24Z ecraven: loz: it doesn't seem to be
2015-06-24T11:07:33Z loz: ecraven: just try to connect to it
2015-06-24T11:07:34Z ecraven: if I try to connect to a :database-type :oracle, I get errors
2015-06-24T11:07:49Z XachX: ecraven: I cant build it, so it is not indexed.
2015-06-24T11:07:52Z loz: set :database-type and check what happens
2015-06-24T11:08:04Z loz: i'm sure everything will work
2015-06-24T11:08:13Z ecraven: Component :CLSQL-ORACLE not found
2015-06-24T11:08:15Z XachX: ecraven: you have to get clsql directly to use oracle
2015-06-24T11:08:45Z ecraven: XachX: hm.. I only unpacked the clsql tarball into local-projects, and things worked then
2015-06-24T11:08:51Z XachX: Yes.
2015-06-24T11:09:01Z ecraven: ok, so if I need oracle, I can't use quicklisp clsql?
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2015-06-24T11:09:08Z ecraven: (I wish I didn't need oracle...)
2015-06-24T11:09:40Z XachX: ecraven: right. I have an open issue to fix that problem (by getting an oracle build setup locally)
2015-06-24T11:10:11Z ecraven: great, thanks for the explanation!
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2015-06-24T11:16:26Z Shinmera: Gah! The Qt libraries on the travis instances are too old, so when the precompiled smoke libs are loaded, it errors due to missing symbols.
2015-06-24T11:16:49Z Shinmera: I guess I'm /still/ not done with this foreign library hell hole
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2015-06-24T11:23:14Z Posterdati: pjb: same program works on sbcl
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2015-06-24T11:28:20Z loz: do we have anything for web developing like clojure guys with their clojurescript?
2015-06-24T11:28:53Z mood: loz: You might want to look into parenscript
2015-06-24T11:29:09Z mood: It's not really the same idea though
2015-06-24T11:29:55Z loz: whats the difference?
2015-06-24T11:30:35Z pjb: Posterdati: are you on the same hardware?
2015-06-24T11:30:49Z Posterdati: pjb: no! :)
2015-06-24T11:31:06Z pjb: Hence my suggestion. You probably have different word size, etc.
2015-06-24T11:31:20Z Posterdati: yes
2015-06-24T11:31:24Z Posterdati: it could be
2015-06-24T11:32:11Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: try ecl on same hardware as sbcl, if problem prevails, then it is implementation/library problem
2015-06-24T11:32:12Z pjb: (get-universal-time) should work better than FFI.
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2015-06-24T11:32:43Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: the problem is ecl on mips
2015-06-24T11:33:12Z jackdaniel: yes, but does ecl has same problem on *x86* ?
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2015-06-24T11:34:26Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: I wasn't able to install ecl 15.3.7 on x86
2015-06-24T11:34:32Z jackdaniel: o?
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2015-06-24T11:34:44Z jackdaniel: that is a problem :p
2015-06-24T11:34:50Z Posterdati: the source compiles on mips but not on the amd64
2015-06-24T11:35:06Z Posterdati: I will recompile it right now and report to you
2015-06-24T11:35:10Z jackdaniel: could you make an issue with more datails on gitlab?
2015-06-24T11:35:35Z jackdaniel: like compilation log copied from console, with configue options you used etc
2015-06-24T11:35:37Z jackdaniel: system
2015-06-24T11:35:41Z jackdaniel: you know a drill
2015-06-24T11:35:42Z jackdaniel: :)
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2015-06-24T11:38:49Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: compiled!
2015-06-24T11:39:10Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: unbelievable, I tried a lot of times before!
2015-06-24T11:40:26Z jackdaniel: happens
2015-06-24T11:40:32Z jackdaniel: I always claimed, that computers are megic
2015-06-24T11:40:35Z jackdaniel: s/megic/magic/
2015-06-24T11:40:47Z Posterdati: no, there were debian updates lately
2015-06-24T11:40:58Z jackdaniel: as I said, magic :D
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2015-06-24T11:42:12Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: I'm trying right now
2015-06-24T11:42:54Z Posterdati: Condition of type: SIMPLE-ERROR
2015-06-24T11:42:55Z Posterdati: %CLOSE-FOREIGN-LIBRARY unimplemented.
2015-06-24T11:43:38Z Posterdati: compiling ffi-types-unix.grovel
2015-06-24T11:44:21Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: you use old cffi
2015-06-24T11:44:29Z jackdaniel: update quicklisp, or put current one in local-dists
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2015-06-24T11:44:53Z Posterdati: updating
2015-06-24T11:46:35Z Posterdati: Filesystem error with pathname #P"/home/angel/quicklisp/tmp/distinfo-update/archives/".
2015-06-24T11:47:40Z jackdaniel: does directory exist? ive encountered same thing on last update, hadn't time so installed from scartch
2015-06-24T11:47:45Z jackdaniel: s/scartch/scratch/
2015-06-24T11:47:51Z Posterdati: the dir exists the file not
2015-06-24T11:49:47Z Posterdati: reinstalling quicklisp
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2015-06-24T11:52:03Z Posterdati: now should be all new
2015-06-24T11:52:51Z jackdaniel: I don't know if it's ecl bug, or quicklisp
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2015-06-24T11:54:56Z jackdaniel: ha, pushed
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2015-06-24T11:55:36Z jackdaniel: minion: hi-five
2015-06-24T11:55:37Z minion: what's up?
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2015-06-24T11:59:17Z Posterdati: Condition of type: UNDEFINED-FUNCTION
2015-06-24T11:59:17Z Posterdati: The function ASDF/FOOTER::COERCE-NAME is undefined.
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2015-06-24T12:00:11Z Posterdati: nice
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2015-06-24T12:00:34Z jackdaniel: no idea where it comes from tbh
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2015-06-24T12:00:50Z Posterdati: 1. (RETRY) Retry completing load for #<require-system "sb-bsd-sockets">.
2015-06-24T12:01:06Z jackdaniel: what are your configure options?
2015-06-24T12:01:26Z Posterdati: no options in configure
2015-06-24T12:01:30Z Posterdati: default config
2015-06-24T12:02:04Z Posterdati: problem was load snmp package
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2015-06-24T12:02:15Z jackdaniel: but it's not during compilation, but during quicklisp install?
2015-06-24T12:02:21Z Posterdati: yes
2015-06-24T12:02:21Z jackdaniel: oh, quicklisp installed succesfully then?
2015-06-24T12:02:42Z Posterdati: yes
2015-06-24T12:02:56Z Posterdati: I'm loading my app and its dependencies
2015-06-24T12:02:59Z jackdaniel: therefore it's snmp problem?
2015-06-24T12:03:07Z Posterdati: not only
2015-06-24T12:03:14Z Posterdati: [package iolib]
2015-06-24T12:03:14Z Posterdati: Condition of type: UNDEFINED-FUNCTION
2015-06-24T12:03:14Z Posterdati: The function ASDF/FOOTER::COERCE-NAME is undefined.
2015-06-24T12:04:07Z jackdaniel: and (ql:client-version) is?
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2015-06-24T12:05:36Z Posterdati: "2015-06-16@
2015-06-24T12:05:38Z Posterdati: "2015-06-16"
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2015-06-24T12:08:03Z jackdaniel: no idea what problem might be
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2015-06-24T12:09:17Z jackdaniel: only non-obvious dependency of iolib i had is libfixpostfix
2015-06-24T12:09:42Z Posterdati: try to load :snmp package
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2015-06-24T12:10:49Z jackdaniel: s/postfix/posix/
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2015-06-24T12:13:41Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: all loaded fine
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2015-06-24T12:14:04Z jackdaniel: (ql:update-all-dists) maybe?
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2015-06-24T12:15:34Z Posterdati: I did it and all was updated
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2015-06-24T12:16:23Z jackdaniel: maybe try develop branch, no further ideas
2015-06-24T12:16:35Z jackdaniel: (ql:quickload :snmp :verbose t) might help
2015-06-24T12:16:39Z jackdaniel: to investigate
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2015-06-24T12:21:36Z Posterdati: iolib/syscalls not found
2015-06-24T12:22:01Z jackdaniel: do you have libfixposix?
2015-06-24T12:23:23Z Posterdati: yes
2015-06-24T12:24:32Z jackdaniel: try ; rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp/ecl* ~/quicklisp/cache/*
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2015-06-24T12:34:06Z loz: does anybody have 9p implementation in cl for a chance?
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2015-06-24T12:35:34Z jackdaniel: filesystem?
2015-06-24T12:35:53Z loz: protocol
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2015-06-24T12:38:28Z p_l: there was one, but I'm not sure if it has not bit-rotted
2015-06-24T12:39:11Z loz: p_l: could you point me to the sources?
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2015-06-24T12:40:26Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: cleaning chache in quicklisp was the issue! Seems it's loading now
2015-06-24T12:41:17Z chu_ is now known as chu
2015-06-24T12:41:19Z p_l: loz: at least one implementation appears to have disappeared from net, currently searching for another, and there's rather not done one that I just found
2015-06-24T12:42:51Z loz: p_l: i don't afraid to look at sources and continue developing)
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2015-06-24T12:43:06Z p_l: https://github.com/nixeagle/nisp/blob/master/9p/
2015-06-24T12:43:17Z p_l: doesn't even implement enough to connect
2015-06-24T12:44:10Z loz: ye, just a few classes
2015-06-24T12:45:08Z loz: looks like one is needed to be written
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2015-06-24T12:47:53Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: good
2015-06-24T12:49:02Z Posterdati: it's compiling iolib.syscalls
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2015-06-24T12:49:31Z Posterdati: ffi-types-unix.c
2015-06-24T12:49:48Z jackdaniel: if it fails on ffi-types-unix.c, then its libfixposix missing
2015-06-24T12:50:02Z Posterdati: but it is installed!
2015-06-24T12:50:31Z jackdaniel: idk what kind of system you have, but apparently it can't find lfp.h header
2015-06-24T12:50:52Z Posterdati: a debian 7 on mips
2015-06-24T12:51:12Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: weren't you testing amd64? i tought we're still talking about x86
2015-06-24T12:51:47Z Posterdati: no, on amd64 it won't compile the packages
2015-06-24T12:52:41Z Posterdati: Condition of type: UNDEFINED-FUNCTION
2015-06-24T12:52:41Z Posterdati: The function ASDF/FOOTER::COERCE-NAME is undefined.
2015-06-24T12:52:53Z jackdaniel: if it doesn't work on x86-64, then it's unlikely it will work on mips
2015-06-24T12:53:04Z Posterdati: loading snmp package
2015-06-24T12:53:38Z jackdaniel: picking continue restart won't help, if iolib/syscalls failed
2015-06-24T12:54:46Z Posterdati: I'm on amd64 + ecl: I cleaned .cache and now compiles
2015-06-24T12:54:53Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2015-06-24T12:55:02Z Posterdati: I forgot to clean the .cache dir
2015-06-24T12:55:09Z jackdaniel: your problem is probably lack of *visible* libfixposix package
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2015-06-24T12:55:23Z jackdaniel: grab it from github, configure with prefix /usr  and install
2015-06-24T12:55:40Z Posterdati: it's compiling now on amd64
2015-06-24T12:55:46Z jackdaniel: not cleanest approach, but something is coherently broken on your debian mips system
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2015-06-24T12:56:02Z Posterdati: let's see on mips
2015-06-24T12:56:12Z Posterdati: on mips + ecl: still compiling
2015-06-24T12:56:42Z Posterdati: on mips + ecl: I'm loading the application
2015-06-24T12:57:08Z Posterdati: failed on amd64 + ecl: Condition of type: UNDEFINED-FUNCTION The function ASDF/FOOTER::COERCE-NAME is undefined.
2015-06-24T12:58:16Z Posterdati: Broken at SI:BYTECODES. [Evaluation of: (QUICKLISP-CLIENT:QUICKLOAD :SNMP)] In: #<process TOP-LEVEL>.
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2015-06-24T13:00:15Z jackdaniel: then try building from develop branch, asdf there is now 3.1.4
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2015-06-24T13:17:19Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: libfixposix0      20110316.git4 mipsel
2015-06-24T13:17:26Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: is it too old?
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2015-06-24T13:17:42Z jackdaniel: I don't know
2015-06-24T13:18:06Z jackdaniel: by trying develop branch I meant ECL develop branch
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2015-06-24T13:18:13Z Posterdati: and there's still that problem on swank-loader.lisp
2015-06-24T13:18:42Z Posterdati: no :mips or :mipsel entry in *default-architectures*
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2015-06-24T13:21:26Z jackdaniel: did you make pull request you said you'll make to project slime? did it got merged?
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2015-06-24T13:26:11Z jackdaniel: hm?
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2015-06-24T13:27:29Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: not yet
2015-06-24T13:27:39Z jackdaniel: it was one line
2015-06-24T13:27:43Z jackdaniel: …
2015-06-24T13:27:51Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: shall I provide you the entire file?
2015-06-24T13:28:11Z Posterdati: or diff it?
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2015-06-24T13:28:26Z jackdaniel: no, you shall send a pull request to slime with github pull-request mechanizm
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2015-06-24T13:33:56Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: never used github for this...
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2015-06-24T13:34:31Z loz: really? its like one of the real github features
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2015-06-24T13:35:38Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: I won't take patches from you and send them to software maintainers, it's time to learn using it. it's intuitive
2015-06-24T13:35:56Z Posterdati: ok
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2015-06-24T13:37:51Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: I think I did it
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2015-06-24T13:39:40Z jackdaniel: good, gratz
2015-06-24T13:39:48Z jackdaniel: what is in features, mips or mipsel?
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2015-06-24T13:43:47Z Posterdati: I added both, but this board is mipsel (mips small endian)
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2015-06-24T13:44:46Z jackdaniel: yes, but what is shown in *features*?
2015-06-24T13:46:45Z Posterdati: :mipsel
2015-06-24T13:47:42Z jackdaniel: ill update trivial-features with this also
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2015-06-24T13:48:31Z Posterdati: I also bothered sionescu with that ioctl missing call: no ioctl(int, int, int)
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2015-06-24T13:52:49Z Posterdati: this is fundamental in dealings with i2c devices
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2015-06-24T13:53:29Z jackdaniel: good, I think he would be even happier with fixing this pull request ;)
2015-06-24T13:53:44Z oleo: hullo
2015-06-24T13:53:59Z jackdaniel: o/
2015-06-24T13:54:04Z Posterdati: I tried it on my pc based incarnations and worked ok
2015-06-24T13:54:52Z jackdaniel: o, you made pull request, good
2015-06-24T13:55:11Z Posterdati: I told you! Is it reasonable?
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2015-06-24T13:55:58Z jackdaniel: obviously (if you mean slime), wrt iolib - I have no idea
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2015-06-24T13:58:25Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: I was talking about the iolib thing...
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2015-06-24T13:58:57Z jackdaniel: if it fixes something, then it's ok, doesn't look ugly
2015-06-24T13:59:04Z jackdaniel: can't tell what it does, since i don't know iolib
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2015-06-24T13:59:57Z Posterdati: it calls ioctl with correct args: ioctl is the swiss knife of hardware interaction in linux/unix worls
2015-06-24T13:59:58Z Posterdati: it calls ioctl with correct args: ioctl is the swiss knife of hardware interaction in linux/unix world
2015-06-24T14:00:41Z jackdaniel: i know what ioctl is, just don't know macro defsyscall semantics, neither defentrypoint semantics
2015-06-24T14:00:56Z jackdaniel: if I'll need it, then I'll probably get to know it, but until then
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2015-06-24T14:01:38Z Posterdati: me too, just changed and expecting to work! Surprisingly it done
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2015-06-24T14:04:17Z Posterdati: s/done/did
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2015-06-24T14:31:27Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: now on mipsel + ecl: is loading the project with all dependencies
2015-06-24T14:32:29Z jackdaniel: after installing libfixposix manually?
2015-06-24T14:32:45Z Posterdati: no
2015-06-24T14:32:56Z Posterdati: I didn't install it manually
2015-06-24T14:33:04Z Posterdati: I cleared the .cache directories
2015-06-24T14:34:57Z antoszka: Guys, a portable library for accessing command line arguments? (ARGV)
2015-06-24T14:35:13Z antoszka: Need it to work across cygwin/os x.
2015-06-24T14:35:33Z nyef: antoszka: Might be a trivial-argv or similar. Typically the variation is between lisp implementations, not host OSes.
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2015-06-24T14:36:41Z jdz: antoszka: i've also used https://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier/software/lisp/clon.php and it actually supported what i wanted to do (git like commands with generic options and sub-command options)
2015-06-24T14:36:46Z antoszka: nyef: will check that out, thanks. I suppose a thin compatibility layer across implementations is enough.
2015-06-24T14:36:58Z antoszka: jdz: ty
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2015-06-24T14:37:45Z jdz: not to mention CLON has documentation, very extensive at that
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2015-06-24T14:39:07Z antoszka: :)
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2015-06-24T14:39:44Z scymtym: antoszka: if you only need to access command arguments without parsing, help text generation, etc., try UIOP:COMMAND-LINE-ARGUMENTS, it probably is in your image already
2015-06-24T14:39:45Z reb`: antoszka: Take a look at https://github.com/brown/lisp-gflags
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2015-06-24T14:40:29Z reb`: ... you fetch the command line args with UIOP:COMMAND-LINE-ARGUMENTS then parse them with the flags library.
2015-06-24T14:40:45Z antoszka: So many options :). Yeah, I kinda remembered UIOP being the new readily-avaiable simple option. But never used it. In my case I only need to get the args, no real need to pass options.
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2015-06-24T14:59:16Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: the problem with snmp-server package is that it uses ironclad package that seems to be x86 only
2015-06-24T14:59:32Z PuercoPop: antoszka: qitab's command-line-arguments is super easy to use
2015-06-24T15:00:11Z PuercoPop: but it doesn't handle 'commands' (a la git)
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2015-06-24T15:02:51Z dim: #<(SIMPLE-ARRAY (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) (16777215)) {100F69800F}> ah, the array dimension doesn't fit, The value 33554430 is not of type (UNSIGNED-BYTE 24).
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2015-06-24T15:08:51Z antoszka: PuercoPop: fine with me
2015-06-24T15:09:39Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: that would explain alot, but I think ironclad worked on arm for me (as a dependency to something else)
2015-06-24T15:09:59Z Posterdati: not on mips
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2015-06-24T15:57:49Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: my application works!!!! LOL
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2015-06-24T15:59:13Z Posterdati: pjb: the error is gone!
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2015-06-24T16:09:54Z jackdaniel: gz
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2015-06-24T17:08:21Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: the swank problem was merged! OK
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2015-06-24T17:28:59Z akkad: as long as you have sbcl, ironclad is great
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2015-06-24T18:38:39Z Poenikatu: I'm learning how to use the FFI interface provided with CCL. How do I compile a short C file to produce a shared object library for X86_64?
2015-06-24T18:39:40Z Bike: what OS?
2015-06-24T18:39:58Z Poenikatu: Linux jessie
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2015-06-24T18:40:48Z jackdaniel: Poenikatu: why not use cffi which is portable?
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2015-06-24T18:41:33Z _death: gcc -o foo.so -shared foo.c
2015-06-24T18:41:54Z Bike: don't you need -fpic
2015-06-24T18:42:07Z failproofshark: i think -fPIC is more general
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2015-06-24T18:42:39Z Poenikatu: Mant thanks
2015-06-24T18:42:52Z failproofshark: Poenikatu: http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Program-Library-HOWTO/shared-libraries.html
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2015-06-24T18:43:12Z Poenikatu: jackdaniel: Is it well documented?
2015-06-24T18:43:22Z Bike: cffi? sure it is.
2015-06-24T18:43:27Z jackdaniel: yes
2015-06-24T18:43:32Z Poenikatu: failproofshark: Thanks
2015-06-24T18:43:40Z jackdaniel: and you gain support for broad range of other implementations for no cost
2015-06-24T18:43:49Z jackdaniel: at least wrt to ffi
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2015-06-24T18:48:15Z _death: (yes, fPIC too)
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2015-06-24T19:00:49Z emma: hi guys
2015-06-24T19:01:00Z jackdaniel: hi emma
2015-06-24T19:01:10Z emma: i like your name jack
2015-06-24T19:01:49Z jackdaniel: thank you
2015-06-24T19:02:35Z emma: jackdaniel: are you a lisp programmer?
2015-06-24T19:03:18Z jackdaniel: I am, but I think better channel for chatting is #lispcafe
2015-06-24T19:03:30Z emma: right on!
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2015-06-24T20:48:53Z Cthulhux: hmm... which GTK+ do i need in which PATH to make cl-cffi-gtk work on windows 8?
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2015-06-24T20:59:58Z brpocock: I believe that only works for current = GTK+3
2015-06-24T21:00:08Z jackdaniel: aha, another bug squashed \o/
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2015-06-24T21:01:17Z PuercoPop: but does GTK+3 work on windows?
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2015-06-24T21:02:58Z Cthulhux: according to the cl-cffi-gtk wiki, the library works
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2015-06-24T21:03:04Z Cthulhux: so gtk+ should too...?
2015-06-24T21:03:07Z brpocock: I have no idea in either direction. I don't see why it shouldn't, nor do I know if anyone's tried?
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2015-06-24T21:06:56Z brpocock: ah, here: http://www.gtk.org/download/win32_tutorial.php
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2015-06-24T21:10:45Z Cthulhux: nice, thanks :-)
2015-06-24T21:11:35Z aeth: You call C code from CL with CFFI. What's the main way to do the other way around?
2015-06-24T21:12:13Z brpocock: Is it C→Lisp or Lisp→C→Lisp?
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2015-06-24T21:12:32Z Bike: aeth: defining a callback in cffi
2015-06-24T21:12:47Z Bike: for lisp - c - lisp, anyway
2015-06-24T21:12:53Z brpocock: +1
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2015-06-24T21:13:15Z brpocock: The C→Lisp route gets weird (imho)
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2015-06-24T21:16:22Z prxq: brpocock: why do you think it's weird?
2015-06-24T21:16:43Z prxq: it's mostly depressing :-)
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2015-06-24T21:22:52Z brpocock: My one job involves a good amount calling Lisp from (third-party) C++. I'm quite eager to try switching from ECL to Clasp to see if that becomes somewhat less arduous, but I haven't yet worked out a path to doing so. The vendor's supported extension lang is Lua, so I'm hacking an edited version of their Lua bindings to make it work. I'd much prefer to just call the C++ when it's wanted, from Lisp…
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2015-06-24T21:29:45Z Cthulhux: just tested
2015-06-24T21:29:58Z Cthulhux: gtk+3 works fine with clozure on win64
2015-06-24T21:30:15Z Cthulhux: still there's the "move the window and everything freezes" issue . :/
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2015-06-24T21:34:06Z contrapunctus: o/
2015-06-24T21:34:51Z contrapunctus: I keep seeing references to a library, cl-cont, but does anyone know where it is hosted?
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2015-06-24T21:37:10Z contrapunctus: ...uh, never mind - http://freecode.com/projects/cl-cont
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2015-06-24T22:39:07Z akkad: is it nicer than ltk?
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2015-06-24T22:45:12Z Cthulhux: gtk+? visually, yes
2015-06-24T22:45:14Z brpocock: Um … yeah, Tk is kinda minimalistic … imho, “survivable, but bad… GTK+ is pretty cutting-edge and very flexible
2015-06-24T22:45:40Z Cthulhux: the only similarly modern alternative would be qt
2015-06-24T22:45:52Z Cthulhux: but seriously, qt.. :/ bloating binaries and code
2015-06-24T22:46:11Z akkad still prefers capi
2015-06-24T22:47:00Z aeth: the problem with GTK is it doesn't look right outside of GNOME anymore
2015-06-24T22:47:24Z brpocock: “Look right?” … meaning the themes or so forth?
2015-06-24T22:47:25Z aeth: GTK applications were great until GNOME started getting *really* opinionated and now I see this ugly out-of-place UI whenever I have to use something GTK
2015-06-24T22:47:28Z akkad: as Miguel and Nat said, once qt is free, gtk can end
2015-06-24T22:47:36Z Cthulhux: most toolkits don't look like native apps
2015-06-24T22:47:48Z Cthulhux: except wxwidgets but wxcl seems to be gone
2015-06-24T22:48:07Z aeth: brpocock: extremely out of place theme, Cancel/OK in opposite direction as expected (which can cause errors), and when dealing with files it defaults to "Recently Used" which is extremely annoying because it adds an extra click for everything
2015-06-24T22:48:24Z aeth: brpocock: So I can say that I absolutely hate using anything designed for GNOME 3
2015-06-24T22:48:37Z aeth: it makes my life a little bit harder, which adds up over time.
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2015-06-24T22:49:42Z aeth: e.g. I go into GIMP, go to "Open Image", and the default view isn't "Pictures" or something sane but "Recently Used", and most of those "Recently Used" are PDFs, not something I'd want to edit in GIMP
2015-06-24T22:51:08Z aeth: Another example, the toolbar in tool-bar-mode in emacs is completely unusable (not like I have it up by default anyway) because the icons are actually of different sizes and styles, with the read directory one *huge*
2015-06-24T22:51:10Z brpocock: Cancel/OK in opposite direction? Haven't seen that. And the “recently used” is at the author (of the app) discretion, is that not the default on most systems now, though? I haven't used many Windows programs lately
2015-06-24T22:51:22Z aeth: brpocock: I only saw that on one GTK app, so maybe it's an option, which makes it worse
2015-06-24T22:51:28Z aeth: because it wasn't in the GIMP open dialog
2015-06-24T22:52:09Z brpocock: The default is the desktop-wide setting, but understandably I suppose Windows Gnome may not have any Control Panel settings it can reflect? *shrug
2015-06-24T22:52:20Z aeth: hmm, yes, firefox and GIMP (both GTK) have Cancel in different places, with Firefox having Cancel on the left and GIMP having cancel on the right
2015-06-24T22:52:27Z aeth: This is on KDE
2015-06-24T22:52:49Z aeth: I'm guessing maybe different versions of GTK
2015-06-24T22:53:13Z brpocock: I'm pretty sure dialog buttons all follow the reading-order, so “yes/ok” will be on the right for eg English, left for Arabic. — and Firefox wraps Gtk+ in Xul so it probably lays things out at their whim
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2015-06-24T22:53:21Z aeth: Anyway, GTK is designed for GNOME, not for Unix-like OSes in general, and can cause lots of problems when using something other than GNOME
2015-06-24T22:54:09Z aeth: What's really great is that I'm using KDE 5 currently on the latest Fedora (22?) and GTK apps have different mice themes!
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2015-06-24T22:54:51Z aeth: I see 3 different mice, I'm guessing Qt, GTK 2, and GTK 3.
2015-06-24T22:55:06Z brpocock: I've been pleasantly isolated from non-Gnome apps/environs for the most part (barring FF and Emacs), so everything looks nice here, except Emacs :-)
2015-06-24T22:55:56Z aeth: emacs looks nice when you turn off tool-bar-mode and menu-bar-mode, except for some reason when I make it fullscreen it isn't actually fullscreen (there's a little bit off the top and bottom so it doesn't have a half-line in the buffers)
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2015-06-24T22:58:10Z aeth: maybe I should create the n-th partial implementation of CLIM or something because the current GUI options aren't very good for CL (excluding SDL2/GL for games of course)
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2015-06-24T22:59:01Z aeth: I understand why people would prefer to use GTK+ over Qt for non-C++ applications because Qt is in C++ and GTK+ is in C.
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2015-06-24T22:59:50Z aeth: another annoyance about GTK+ is that quite a few apps use the whole GNOME 3 look and feel, as seen in this Wikipedia screenshot that demonstrates GTK+: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Gtk3-widget-factory-3.16.0.png
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2015-06-24T23:00:20Z aeth: as in they look like that in KDE, not just in GNOME
2015-06-24T23:00:25Z aeth: and probably LXDE, etc.
2015-06-24T23:00:39Z aeth: no title bar, etc.
2015-06-24T23:00:43Z brpocock: The “look and feel” there = default Gnome theme. (I thought Fedora used the same theme for Kde by default also?
2015-06-24T23:01:26Z aeth: brpocock: KDE and GNOME are diverging in their design decisions, which means that I'm guessing Qt in GNOME and GTK+ in KDE are looking more and more foreign. I'm not sure there's much that distros can do to theme around this
2015-06-24T23:01:44Z aeth: like when a GNOME app demands to be windowed-only with no title bar, that's not going to look KDE-native no matter how you theme it
2015-06-24T23:03:02Z aeth: It does go the other way around, too. VLC uses Qt and back when I was using GNOME 3 a few years ago it looked very bad in GNOME
2015-06-24T23:04:29Z brpocock: I don't know any examples of distros pushing K by default, so probably not much coördinated effort in that direction? Ubuntu, Fedora/CentOS/RHEL/Sci, are all Gnome. And looks like all ship with (Ubuntu: Humane? or ) Adwaita as the theme for Qt to try to make them blend in.
2015-06-24T23:04:48Z PuercoPop: aeth: when I used KDE3 there was gtk+-qt-engine so GTK apps looked like QT ones, but apparently it doesn't work on GTK+3
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2015-06-24T23:06:06Z aeth: KDE is extremely buggy, but at least it has features. Gnome 3 is unusable the way I use my double monitor setup (two equally-important monitors with full panels on both) because it assumes a primary/secondary monitor (e.g. a laptop with a secondary desktop screen) so I'm basically forced to use KDE.
2015-06-24T23:06:54Z aeth: I think it's going to come to the point where I will have to code my own desktop in order to have a usable desktop :-p
2015-06-24T23:06:58Z brpocock: Why not just put a “panel” on the second monitor? There are shell extensions/tweak settings for that config. (I use 3 normally.)
2015-06-24T23:07:35Z brpocock: 3 at day job, 2 fixed + remote laptop screen + sometimes a TV at home job.
2015-06-24T23:07:41Z aeth: brpocock: If I am not using both screens I will turn off one of the two. This means the hot corner special window thing that Gnome 3 does isn't going to work on one of the two because it's going to show up on the left one
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2015-06-24T23:08:57Z brpocock: The Activities Overview? Does only show on the main screen. But powering off a monitor should remove it from Xinerama and change the primary display, like closing a lappy lid while using ext monitor or unplugging my TV do …
2015-06-24T23:09:12Z brpocock: anyways, g2g, ciao all …
2015-06-24T23:09:15Z aeth: doesn't for me
2015-06-24T23:09:33Z aeth: I'm assuming when I power off the monitor, both Gnome and KDE just treat that monitor as if it's still on
2015-06-24T23:09:41Z aeth: based on how it's behaved for years ever since I had this set up
2015-06-24T23:09:51Z brpocock: ouch ☹
2015-06-24T23:11:18Z aeth: it might be because I have to use the proprietary nvidia driver in order to play games
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2015-06-24T23:11:37Z aeth: The nvidia driver is buggy and doesn't implement everything, but games are unplayable slow last time I tried nouveau
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2015-06-24T23:12:05Z nyef: aeth: Is assisting with the nouveau project something that you're equipped to do?
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2015-06-24T23:13:08Z mrottenkolber: Hi, whats the type specifier for a positive real number?
2015-06-24T23:13:13Z mrottenkolber: E.g. >0
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2015-06-24T23:13:58Z aeth: nyef: I don't really have C experience that can be useful to a major non-trivial project.
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2015-06-24T23:14:19Z nyef: That's not quite what I asked.
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2015-06-24T23:15:09Z aeth: I will have to always use the proprietary nvidia driver when I play on Steam For Linux anyway because that's how graphics drivers work. They code in lots of tricks to get various games to work iirc.
2015-06-24T23:15:27Z p_l: aeth: unforrunately for you, gnome3 and to lesser extent kde5 are hellbent on breakkng X11, so even if driver behaved perfectky it would still end up in tears
2015-06-24T23:15:48Z aeth: p_l: yes I noticed how KDE has its own lock screen rather than using xscreensaver, for instance
2015-06-24T23:15:51Z nyef: Also, the easiest way to obtain the experience to be useful to a major non-trivial project is to get in there and try to get something working.
2015-06-24T23:17:59Z Cthulhux: is there even a qt5 for lisp?
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2015-06-24T23:20:40Z p_l: I think CommonQT can be extended to use it, though honestly I do not have that big of an use case for a lib that still hasn't arrived on my machine :)
2015-06-24T23:21:32Z aeth: might as well wait for a CLIM so it's forwards-compatable to a LispOS
2015-06-24T23:22:15Z Bike: use stumpwm, clearly
2015-06-24T23:22:18Z p_l: (qt5 is still marked as too experimental)
2015-06-24T23:22:29Z mrottenkolber: Ah SATISFIES was what I was looking for :)
2015-06-24T23:22:37Z Bike: mrottenkolber: (real (0))
2015-06-24T23:22:50Z mrottenkolber: Bike: No 0 is not positive
2015-06-24T23:22:53Z nyef: mrottenkolber: A SATISFIES type is almost never the right answer.
2015-06-24T23:23:01Z Bike: mrottenkolber: the () means it's an exclusive bound.
2015-06-24T23:23:08Z aeth: Bike: with dual 1080p 24" monitors I don't really have a need for tiling window managers, I rarely use 100% of the screen real estate, mostly when programming graphical stuff with a fullscreen emacs on one screen
2015-06-24T23:23:12Z mrottenkolber: Bike: oh neat, thanks
2015-06-24T23:23:21Z p_l: aeth: I was thinking of implementing some of the CLIM behaviours in QT
2015-06-24T23:23:32Z aeth: Bike: in fact I have to make my Firefox exactly 720 pixels wide because many websites still can't support 1080p well in 2015
2015-06-24T23:23:33Z p_l: also, tiling WMs show best on big screens! :D
2015-06-24T23:23:51Z Bike: mrottenkolber: like nyef said, the compiler isn't going to do anything with a satisfies so it's mostly pointless. just so you know
2015-06-24T23:24:04Z jasom: aeth: 1080p is too small for me; you can pry my 1200 lines from my cold, dead hands!
2015-06-24T23:24:15Z p_l: aeth: I think you mean "tall"... 1080p doesn't actually specify width
2015-06-24T23:24:22Z nyef: Bike: SBCL occasionally does things with SATISFIES.
2015-06-24T23:24:23Z aeth: oops
2015-06-24T23:24:27Z Bike: this screen is six hundred lines. aw yeah, baby
2015-06-24T23:24:41Z mrottenkolber: Bike: it helps with correctness though :) My ANSI CL spec doesn't mention () meaning exclusive :(
2015-06-24T23:24:42Z Bike: nyef: wow, really? like when?
2015-06-24T23:24:50Z aeth: right, I got confused because 4k screens reverse the standard iirc. i.e. they count width instead of height
2015-06-24T23:24:54Z Bike: clhs 12.1.6
2015-06-24T23:24:55Z specbot: Interval Designators: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/12_af.htm
2015-06-24T23:24:56Z Bike: mrottenkolber:
2015-06-24T23:24:58Z nyef: Bike: I forget precisely what. It had to do with array types.
2015-06-24T23:25:15Z aeth: I make my screen exactly 1280 wide (to pretend to be 720x1280), I make it the full height because sites break on width, not height
2015-06-24T23:25:37Z p_l: aeth: because 2k/3k/4k stuff is the first one that came in era of digital video and content
2015-06-24T23:26:23Z nyef: Anyone remember 80x25, or 320x200?
2015-06-24T23:26:29Z p_l: I do
2015-06-24T23:26:39Z p_l: i also remember that 1080p is analogue standard ;D
2015-06-24T23:26:42Z nyef: Or the really impressive for its time 320x240?
2015-06-24T23:26:44Z nyef: Heh.
2015-06-24T23:26:47Z Bike: i think my graphing calculator had 80×25, and 320×200 was system shock
2015-06-24T23:26:57Z aeth: I've found that 1280 is the perfect browser width because it's enough to tell the website it's widescreen (some won't give you the full layout otherwise) but also narrow enough for older websites (that don't have any max-width for text, e.g. Wikipedia) to still be usable
2015-06-24T23:27:01Z p_l first read about it in communist-era radioamateur magazine
2015-06-24T23:27:15Z aeth: width breaks other things, but it's mostly just old websites that don't have a max width for the text
2015-06-24T23:27:30Z nyef is running 1400x1050.
2015-06-24T23:27:30Z jasom: how about 720x348
2015-06-24T23:27:31Z Bike: oh, 80×25 text mode. duh
2015-06-24T23:27:47Z jasom: My first machine that was actually my own was 720x348
2015-06-24T23:28:13Z aeth: based on this I'm using 1280 width, 941 height for the browser window: http://whatsmy.browsersize.com/
2015-06-24T23:28:22Z aeth: So it's squarish this way, too.
2015-06-24T23:28:33Z nyef: I don't even remember what my Vic-20 did, but I think it might have been 22-column text.
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2015-06-24T23:28:58Z p_l: "Start of protected first page of cache. First class for frequent fliers" <--- heh
2015-06-24T23:30:01Z jasom: First computer I used was by dad's and had a 9" 80 column text-only display
2015-06-24T23:30:16Z aeth: Actually, I think the ideal way to handle bad websites would probably be to keep a filter list like an adblocker. Sites that are terrible widescreen (e.g. Wikipedia, Hacker News) can be kept within a certain size (I actually use Greasemonkey on Firefox to add a max-width to Hacker News. Wikipedia's style is too complicated to be this simple)
2015-06-24T23:30:43Z p_l: aeth: you might have rediscovered Stylish just now ;)
2015-06-24T23:30:52Z ronh-: my first one had 320x200 resolution with 4-bit color!
2015-06-24T23:31:06Z aeth: p_l: except I don't care about the styles, the problem is when the page is absolutely unusable on widescreen. So it'd be more like "Fake not-widscreen"
2015-06-24T23:31:24Z aeth: and the feature would be to make it within a certain width
2015-06-24T23:31:36Z aeth: really old websites might even need 1024 width
2015-06-24T23:31:48Z aeth: for the old 1024x768 days
2015-06-24T23:31:51Z jasom: "Best viewed in 800x600"
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2015-06-24T23:32:14Z aeth: right, it would basically be: 680, 800, 1024, 1280, nothing. iirc. It's been a while since I've used those resolutions.
2015-06-24T23:32:41Z aeth: I don't think there are non-mobile sites that would be unusable with at 680 pixel width
2015-06-24T23:32:42Z p_l: aeth: inject CSS that forces viewport of certain size, ????, PROFIT
2015-06-24T23:33:11Z aeth: p_l: the problem is I don't think it centers it when you do that
2015-06-24T23:33:23Z aeth: p_l: So instead of having two bars on either side of emptiness, you have it hug the left
2015-06-24T23:33:45Z aeth: Usable, but not ideal on widescreen.
2015-06-24T23:33:49Z p_l: nyef: looking through VLM... am I wrong at being surprised that it actually implements instruction cache in software, including hashing?
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2015-06-24T23:35:14Z nyef: p_l: Software built by lisp hackers, to run a lisp VM, based on an existing product, using an Alpha CPU as a microcode engine?
2015-06-24T23:35:34Z aeth: Once I can find a way to get it right, the actual extension itself would be pretty simple, e.g. a list of text defintions like "*.foo.com/* 1280"
2015-06-24T23:35:47Z nyef: p_l: Sounds fairly sane to me, actually.
2015-06-24T23:36:38Z p_l: nyef: yeah, it has software-based icache
2015-06-24T23:36:52Z p_l: including branch predictor, apparently
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2015-06-24T23:37:23Z nyef: This is icache for macroinstructions, though, right?
2015-06-24T23:37:44Z aeth: Do Steam and Steam games work on a tiling window manager like stumpwm? e.g. on KDE most apps will just fullscreen the primary (left) monitor. Some (mostly Unity afaik) don't work right and I have to make it windowed, and then manually fullscreen that window through KDE (which allows that, LXDE can do something like that too))
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2015-06-24T23:38:11Z p_l: aeth: works for me on xmonad
2015-06-24T23:38:21Z p_l: though some are buggy
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2015-06-24T23:38:29Z aeth: The main problem with multi-monitor gaming on Linux is most games don't actually port properly to Linux, they just think they ported it with a checkbox, and so a lot of games have to be handled separately. A few have to be played in a non-resizable window instead of fullscreen, too
2015-06-24T23:38:32Z p_l: (not as much as some normal GUI apps)
2015-06-24T23:38:53Z p_l: nyef: yeah, after all it's the microcode ;)
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2015-06-24T23:39:51Z aeth: the worst part is I think with SDL they all autominimize on loss of focus (even when it makes no sense, like strategy games) and often crash when that happens
2015-06-24T23:40:32Z p_l: nyef: „Falls through to cacheValid” <--- oh boy, this explains so much about my poor IDA disassemblies :D
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2015-06-24T23:43:27Z aeth: I actually think I have a decent idea for a CL window manager (either a patch/fork or a new one)... code around certain bad applications, sort of like what graphics drivers do.
2015-06-24T23:44:13Z p_l: good luck with some of them
2015-06-24T23:44:19Z aeth: So e.g. Starbound's a game that at least for me can't be fullscreen because it actually turns off the 2nd monitor. Maybe there's a way to have a user repository of workarounds
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2015-06-24T23:44:47Z aeth: (in KDE what I do is I make it windowed and then right click the title bar, go to more actions, and then make it fullscreen through there)
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2015-06-24T23:45:10Z aeth: Quite a few games crash when they lose focus *and* auto lose focus when you switch windows.
2015-06-24T23:46:43Z p_l: aeth: games? Chrome v43 doesn't handle focus properly
2015-06-24T23:47:02Z p_l: and from my info everything compiled with latest GTK3 doesn't as well
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2015-06-24T23:53:07Z aeth: Once we have a LispOS we can add CLIM to the list of completely incompatable and different looking ways to write Unix GUIs :-p
2015-06-24T23:53:28Z mrottenkolber: you guys remind me of Pinky & The Brain :P
2015-06-24T23:53:45Z mrottenkolber: Maybe because its late at night where I live ;)
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2015-06-25T00:03:46Z aeth: This is probably a good reason for why we need a LispOS. There is no "native" look in Linux. X looks ancient and KDE and GNOME are very different design philosophies, with increasingly incompatable looks.
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2015-06-25T00:04:22Z aeth: A LispOS wouldn't just have everything in Lisp. It would also have a unified way to be themed.
2015-06-25T00:05:08Z nyef: The "native" look in Linux is a text console, not X.
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2015-06-25T00:05:41Z nyef: I used to run Linux with 24 text VTs, and no X.
2015-06-25T00:05:58Z aeth: nyef: unfortunately there are at least three popular ways to use a text console on Linux. xterm, gnome's terminal, and konsole
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2015-06-25T00:06:16Z aeth: (a lot of other terminals are just extensions of gnome or kde's version)
2015-06-25T00:06:17Z mrottenkolber: aeth: and Emacs
2015-06-25T00:06:20Z Bike: or without x. i mean, people do it.
2015-06-25T00:06:21Z nyef: aeth: Umm... No. Wrong. The TEXT CONSOLE, not X.
2015-06-25T00:06:29Z Bike: people including me! rarely.
2015-06-25T00:07:35Z aeth: mrottenkolber: Unfortunately emacs can't support ncurses afaik so it can't be used for all terminal applications
2015-06-25T00:07:35Z williamyao: Hooking up a glass tty to a modern Linux.. hmmm...
2015-06-25T00:08:08Z nyef: (Man, those were the days. I learned C in a couple of weeks of trying to write my own MUD based on the network code of several other MUDs...)
2015-06-25T00:08:27Z Bike: well, Deaf people still use teletypes
2015-06-25T00:09:00Z nyef: (Several EMACS sessions, man pages open, and shells pointed to somewhere in various different MUD source directories...)
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2015-06-25T00:14:58Z akkad: are there ways to lock the repl running on a server, to require a password to get in? e.g. a long running image on a remote server.
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2015-06-25T00:15:41Z Bike: require a ssh tunnel? there's probably some way to do that.
2015-06-25T00:16:20Z akkad: it would be running bound locally in say tmux/screen,
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2015-06-25T00:18:37Z nyef: At which point, to even find the tmux/screen session, you have to have access to the account that it's running under. What's the problem?
2015-06-25T00:18:55Z akkad: there's no problem.
2015-06-25T00:19:06Z nyef: Okay then.
2015-06-25T00:19:08Z akkad: the design choices are obvious to me now. thanks
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2015-06-25T01:31:36Z nyef: clhs slot-value
2015-06-25T01:31:36Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_slt_va.htm
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2015-06-25T01:37:42Z nyef: ... And my github streak is safe for today! (-:
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2015-06-25T01:39:06Z pillton: nyef: git filter-branch --help
2015-06-25T01:40:52Z pillton wants a github streak of pi commits per day.
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2015-06-25T01:41:17Z pjb: I'd prefer a github steak with fries commits per day.
2015-06-25T01:44:20Z pillton: pjb: There is a beer in Australia called XXXX (spoken as 4 x). There are some math jokes associated with it e.g. pi + 4x.
2015-06-25T01:45:38Z akkad: any libs to handle a case of tailing log files, looking for strings?
2015-06-25T01:45:54Z pillton: "Tailing log files"?
2015-06-25T01:46:04Z akkad: tail(1) -f logfile
2015-06-25T01:46:58Z akkad: opening a file that is constantly being written to, searching for a regexp, and executing some function when found.
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2015-06-25T01:48:46Z pillton: I do that by keeping a history of what I have processed. That way I don't process the same message twice.
2015-06-25T01:49:06Z nyef: pillton: Using git filter-branch is cheating.
2015-06-25T01:49:53Z nyef: The point of the exercise is to build the habit of committing something every day.
2015-06-25T01:50:21Z pillton: nyef: Well, you can commit fraud every other day. :)
2015-06-25T01:51:01Z nyef: Don't wanna. d-:
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2015-06-25T02:47:02Z aeth: Should I read about CLIM 2 or CLIM 3?
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2015-06-25T02:51:10Z nyef: CLIM 2 is broken by design. CLIM 3 is an incomplete one-man effort.
2015-06-25T02:51:39Z nyef: Why not read about both, and then start writing your own?
2015-06-25T02:52:16Z aeth: I can blend the two and call it CLIM e
2015-06-25T02:52:30Z aeth: Because e is between 2 and 3
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2015-06-25T02:55:09Z Bike: hence the alternate less catchy name, CLIM 4γ
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2015-06-25T03:25:49Z papachan: hello
2015-06-25T03:26:09Z papachan: if i want to remove duplicate in a list
2015-06-25T03:26:13Z papachan: i have this  (remove-duplicates '((1 2 3) (1 2 3)) :test #'equal)
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2015-06-25T03:27:00Z Bike: So what's the problem you're having?
2015-06-25T03:29:09Z papachan: well in fact it work it compare two list and remove duplicate
2015-06-25T03:29:17Z papachan: but if this list have duplicate values
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2015-06-25T03:29:41Z papachan: for exmaple  (remove-duplicates '((2 2 2) (2 2 3)) :test #'equal)
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2015-06-25T03:33:55Z jason_m: (2 2 2) and (2 2 3) are not duplicates.  What output are you expecting?
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2015-06-25T03:34:50Z jason_m: (mapcar #'(lambda (x) (remove-duplicates x :test #'equal)) '((2 2 2) (2 2 3))) => ((2) (2 3))
2015-06-25T03:34:55Z jason_m: is that what you're looking for?
2015-06-25T03:35:39Z phf: i have a logical pathname foo -> **;*.*   foo:test expands fine, but foo:test~1 fails. is ~1 treated somehow specially in pathnames?
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2015-06-25T03:37:14Z phf: actually translation fails on sbcl, but not on ccl..
2015-06-25T03:37:50Z Bike: i think pathname syntax is pretty implementation defined
2015-06-25T03:38:19Z nyef: Logical-pathname syntax isn't, but a number of implementations aren't that strict about it...
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2015-06-25T03:40:02Z Bike: hm, "The consequences of using characters other than those specified here in a logical pathname namestring are unspecified. " bummer
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2015-06-25T03:40:45Z Bike: that being anything other than colons, semicolons, asterisks, alphanumerics, and hyphens, if i'm reading this right
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2015-06-25T03:41:34Z phf: so i see
2015-06-25T03:41:41Z pillton: I think we need something like *default-pathname-translations*.
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2015-06-25T03:42:37Z Bike: ha ha, sbcl translates "SYS:SRC;~foo" into #p"SYS:SRC;~foo". nice job.
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2015-06-25T04:08:35Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-06-25T04:09:21Z Bike: hajimemashite, beach
2015-06-25T04:09:38Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-06-25T04:10:15Z beach: Bike: Are you too learning Japanese?
2015-06-25T04:10:30Z Bike: not in a serious fashion.
2015-06-25T04:11:25Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2015-06-25T04:22:15Z zacts: hi
2015-06-25T04:22:35Z zacts: I'm going to learn some lojban
2015-06-25T04:22:49Z zacts: I want to tinker with lisp + lojban, to see if I can make anything amusing
2015-06-25T04:25:33Z beach: Sounds good.
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2015-06-25T04:31:24Z theos: hey
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2015-06-25T06:51:24Z jackdaniel: hello
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2015-06-25T07:59:22Z p_l: hmm, can sb-assem be used to write assembly programs directly from SBCL?
2015-06-25T08:00:55Z Shinmera: p_l: Might be related: http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2014/03/15/sbcl-the-ultimate-assembly-code-breadboard/
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2015-06-25T08:15:08Z p_l: Shinmera: that article is great!
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2015-06-25T08:31:44Z Poenikatu: I notice that Clozure CL has both semaphores and locks. What is the difference  between them?
2015-06-25T08:33:06Z dim: so in a handler-bind it's possible to funcall a restart-case branch? https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/commit/250ed1c7918c26c748da894d499bcc3a8b2f3b29
2015-06-25T08:33:14Z jdz: Poenikatu: have you checked the wikipedia article on semaphores?
2015-06-25T08:33:14Z dim: I'm quite confused about what I just commited I think
2015-06-25T08:33:37Z Poenikatu: I haven't but shall do so
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2015-06-25T08:38:32Z ehu: dim: I'm not sure what you're asking, but your commit makes complete sense -- although it doesn't use restart-case?
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2015-06-25T08:40:53Z dim: cl-csv::continue is a restart-case
2015-06-25T08:40:59Z dim: not a function
2015-06-25T08:41:18Z ehu: clhs continue
2015-06-25T08:41:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_contin.htm
2015-06-25T08:41:23Z ehu: it's a function
2015-06-25T08:41:37Z ehu: (but it's also a restart)
2015-06-25T08:41:51Z dim: huhu, so it's not doing anything at all like what I understood it would
2015-06-25T08:41:54Z dim: I guess
2015-06-25T08:42:10Z ehu: well, it's correct.
2015-06-25T08:42:16Z ehu: the function simply invokes the restart.
2015-06-25T08:42:42Z dim: and handler-bind makes it so that it invokes the proper one, the one defined in cl-csv, right?
2015-06-25T08:43:17Z ehu: it will invoke the innermost continue restart.
2015-06-25T08:43:43Z ehu: which may or may not be that one.
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2015-06-25T08:48:55Z dim: innermost in terms of lexical or dynamic scope? can I read the code to assess which one it is? I'd be surprised if the whole thing isn't dynamic and allows actions-at-a-distance, that said, so I will just assume I'm calling the "right" one here
2015-06-25T08:49:07Z dim: as in "tests pass"
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2015-06-25T10:07:30Z Shapeshifter: Hi. I have a text file containing a single line, which is a parse tree in "lisp format". So it's not lisp code, but kinda looks like it http://ix.io/jiH which is why I'm asking here. I would like to reformat this file such that it looks more like a tree, i.e. one word per line, indented by the right amount of spaces. Is there an existing tool to do this?
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2015-06-25T10:09:24Z schjetne: Shapeshifter: I don't know what it is, so I don't know if there is a prettyprinter for it
2015-06-25T10:09:48Z lieven: pprint should be able to do it with some configuration
2015-06-25T10:10:18Z schjetne: Looks Java-like. What is it used for?
2015-06-25T10:10:41Z Shapeshifter: schjetne: yes it's a Java parse tree as generated by ANTLR 4
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2015-06-25T10:28:31Z Shapeshifter: well. this is silly but works well enough ;-) indent=0; cat tree.txt| sed -e 's/(/\n(/g;s/)/\n)/g' | grep -v '^[[:space:]]*$' | while read line; do if (( $indent )); then printf ' %.0s' {1..$indent}; fi; echo $line; if [[ $line == *"("* ]]; then ((indent++)); elif [[ $line == *")"* ]]; then ((indent--)); fi; done
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2015-06-25T11:06:46Z ehu: dim: dynamic scope.
2015-06-25T11:07:17Z ehu: dim: another option is not to use the 'continue restart, but use your own.
2015-06-25T11:07:26Z ehu: then you know exactly what you're doing.
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2015-06-25T11:08:07Z ehu: (after all, you're restarting in response to your own condition...)
2015-06-25T11:09:12Z jackdaniel: gmp devs not very firendly :(
2015-06-25T11:09:17Z jackdaniel: s/firendly/friendly/
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2015-06-25T11:24:45Z dim: ehu: the condition is from cl-csv and I use a cl-csv provided restart
2015-06-25T11:24:56Z dim: the code where I do that is from pgloader, a user of cl-csv
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2015-06-25T11:27:37Z ehu: I thought you were using the generic 'continue restart?
2015-06-25T11:27:54Z ehu: ah. ok.
2015-06-25T11:28:56Z dim: I guess I am, but I wanted to use the one provided by cl-csv, which apparently is what happens because it's the innermost one available in the handler-bind context...
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2015-06-25T13:24:51Z Ober_: akkad: no, tail -f is not something you should be doing in lisp
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2015-06-25T13:47:29Z oleo: hello
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2015-06-25T13:55:41Z ilya: hi. couldn't find on google. how can i get all list items matching a predicate but only those at the beginning of the list? (y1 y2 n1 y3) will result (y1 y2)
2015-06-25T13:56:50Z Xach: ilya: (subseq list 0 (position-if-not predicate list))
2015-06-25T13:57:05Z Xach: needs refinement
2015-06-25T13:57:10Z Xach: (maybe)
2015-06-25T13:57:27Z ilya: that's what i did. the problem is with (y1 y2 y3 ...) lists...
2015-06-25T13:57:42Z Xach: ilya: how so?
2015-06-25T13:58:02Z ilya: the position is nil then
2015-06-25T13:58:23Z Xach: ilya: not a problem. nil is a valid end bounding index designator.
2015-06-25T13:58:34Z Xach: (subseq list 0 nil) gives the whole list.
2015-06-25T13:59:01Z ilya: oh! i see. exactly what i need. thanks! i wrote it in a bit different way ...which didn't work
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2015-06-25T14:00:31Z ilya: thanks!
2015-06-25T14:00:39Z Xach: no problem
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2015-06-25T14:03:20Z ggole: (loop for elt in list while (pred elt) collect elt)
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2015-06-25T14:05:09Z ggole: But the sequence version would be a bit more generic.
2015-06-25T14:07:42Z shka: do we really need to start discussion about loop vs subseq? ;-)
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2015-06-25T14:08:02Z ilya: sorry, i didn't mean ! :)
2015-06-25T14:08:37Z Xach: shka: I think it is fine.
2015-06-25T14:08:53Z shka: so i think
2015-06-25T14:09:17Z ilya: went with subseq but it's an interesting answer anyway
2015-06-25T14:09:29Z shka: but this would lead us to: iterate vs loop, why to not use tcr in common lisp etc.
2015-06-25T14:09:41Z shka: i seen this already on this channel
2015-06-25T14:10:26Z ggole: What I had in mind was avoiding double iteration over the list, rather than style
2015-06-25T14:10:46Z ggole: Of course it usually isn't necessary to care about that.
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2015-06-25T14:27:12Z ilya: the rest of the list assuming p is result of position-if-not would be (subseq list (or p (length list))) , right?
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2015-06-25T14:28:52Z Posterdati: hi
2015-06-25T14:29:15Z Posterdati: how it is possible to strip the package name from an object printed out by format?
2015-06-25T14:29:29Z fs-bigfondue: what is the best lisp to learn?  I'm thinking of elisp or common lisp with slime
2015-06-25T14:30:23Z Xach: fs-bigfondue: this is a common lisp channel. common lisp is the best!
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2015-06-25T14:30:33Z Xach: elisp is good to learn, too, so you can adapt emacs to your needs.
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2015-06-25T14:31:30Z fs-bigfondue: yea, there seems to be much better commonlisp documentation, so that's a big plus
2015-06-25T14:32:01Z Xach: I don't know if that's true. elisp is pretty well-documented last time i checked.
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2015-06-25T14:32:15Z Xach: common lisp does have a great standard document though.
2015-06-25T14:32:21Z williamyao: Yeah, C-h i :)
2015-06-25T14:33:12Z failproofshark: C-c C-d h ?
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2015-06-25T14:34:47Z ggole: ilya: are you looking to partition the list?
2015-06-25T14:35:01Z williamyao: Also nice, but I _do_ like the info mode navigation shortcuts.
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2015-06-25T14:56:58Z MicroNite: lisp is so freaking hard
2015-06-25T14:56:58Z MicroNite: why does everything needs to be a function?
2015-06-25T14:57:33Z oleo: hello MicroNite
2015-06-25T14:57:36Z oleo: what do you mean ?
2015-06-25T14:57:48Z oleo: data is data
2015-06-25T14:57:51Z oleo: code is code
2015-06-25T14:57:58Z MicroNite: lets say I want to set 3 properties in a form, using lisp
2015-06-25T14:58:08Z MicroNite: and lets say those 3 properties are Text, X, Y
2015-06-25T14:58:10Z MicroNite: and that's it
2015-06-25T14:58:22Z MicroNite: how would you hypotetically do it?
2015-06-25T14:58:27Z Xach: What's a form?
2015-06-25T14:58:35Z MicroNite: a windows form
2015-06-25T14:58:37Z jackdaniel: (setf Text "blabla" X 8 Y 5)
2015-06-25T14:58:40Z Bike: what's a property.
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2015-06-25T15:00:18Z MicroNite: thats like doing (progn (setf Text "blabla") (setf X 8) (setf Y 5))
2015-06-25T15:00:29Z MicroNite: I want to do stuff using pure functional code
2015-06-25T15:00:33Z MicroNite: without using progn
2015-06-25T15:00:36Z MicroNite: is that even possible?
2015-06-25T15:00:39Z Bike: Why?
2015-06-25T15:00:43Z akkad: Ober_: ok
2015-06-25T15:00:59Z Bike: also that's a weird thing to say after complaining about things being functions.
2015-06-25T15:01:12Z jackdaniel: MicroNite: (let ((local-text-binding "blabla") (x 8) (y 5)) (form-1) (form-2)) etc
2015-06-25T15:01:43Z MicroNite: that looks functional
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2015-06-25T15:03:37Z MicroNite: but isn't it the same as (progn (let (x 8)) (let (y 5)))
2015-06-25T15:04:01Z MicroNite: They are forcing me to do stuff without progn
2015-06-25T15:04:05Z ilya: ggole: need two parts, first matching given predicate at the beginning of the list and the rest. got it,just making sure it's a good solution. (let ((p (position-if-not #'(lambda (x) (typep x 'string-node)) list)))...)
2015-06-25T15:04:11Z MicroNite: all my code looks like a bunch of progn
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2015-06-25T15:04:36Z ilya: ggole: and (subseq list (or p (length list))) inside the let for the rest of the list
2015-06-25T15:04:39Z jackdaniel: x is local to let block
2015-06-25T15:04:48Z jackdaniel: so code you wrote doesn't make sense
2015-06-25T15:05:01Z MicroNite: setf then
2015-06-25T15:05:08Z failproofshark: setf accepts multiple pairs
2015-06-25T15:05:15Z failproofshark: if thats what you're asking
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2015-06-25T15:05:31Z failproofshark: so you could do (setf something 1 other-value 2) etc
2015-06-25T15:05:36Z jackdaniel: let doesn't assign 8 to variable, that's what setf does, let creates binding, what is more of functional
2015-06-25T15:06:08Z MicroNite: my more general question is this: can you do a program without using progn?
2015-06-25T15:06:19Z Bike: yes, but it's annoying to do
2015-06-25T15:06:21Z MicroNite: is that something "normal"
2015-06-25T15:06:22Z MicroNite: making lisp programs without usign "progn"
2015-06-25T15:06:31Z MicroNite: well its such a huge deal in here to use progn
2015-06-25T15:06:46Z jackdaniel: MicroNite: you don't have to use progn, since a lot of operators create explicit progn
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2015-06-25T15:07:07Z jackdaniel: ie let, lambda, defun etc, using progn implies side-effects
2015-06-25T15:07:07Z Bike: usually lisp programs include sequential execution, because it's convenient and why would you avoid using a useful feature
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2015-06-25T15:09:11Z MicroNite: my relationship with list is a love/hate relationship
2015-06-25T15:09:11Z MicroNite: I hate it so much and I love it so much
2015-06-25T15:09:11Z MicroNite: lisp*
2015-06-25T15:09:14Z jackdaniel: MicroNite: you can program in functional style with lisp, note tough that most libraries have side-effects, so calling them from function will make you function not purely-functional
2015-06-25T15:09:28Z jackdaniel: s/you/your/
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2015-06-25T15:20:50Z ilya: thanks to all, see ya
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2015-06-25T15:50:05Z Baggers: What are good choices for solid threading library with support for sbcl under linux, osx & windows? Bordeaux would be good though it's window's support seems non existent from the homepage
2015-06-25T15:52:04Z Xach: bordeaux is probably the solidest basis for something better
2015-06-25T15:53:58Z dwrngr: despite what it doesn't say, it works ok for me on windows
2015-06-25T15:54:24Z dwrngr: i have installed it with quicklisp, and it seems to support the packages i've tried that use it as a dependency as well
2015-06-25T15:54:32Z Baggers: dwrngr: oh that's great to hear, sounds like I just need to test it then
2015-06-25T15:54:53Z dwrngr: aye, i can't really vouch for how fully it works but superficially it does, hehe
2015-06-25T15:54:55Z jackdaniel: bordeaux hooks to to implementation threads, so if sbcl threads work on windows, bordeaux should work too
2015-06-25T15:55:14Z dwrngr: hm probably just because SBCL claims their windows multithreaded support is experimental
2015-06-25T15:55:17Z jackdaniel: s/to to/to/
2015-06-25T15:55:34Z dwrngr: im not sure what limitations it has
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2015-06-25T15:56:01Z dwrngr: possibly just trying to cover their bases with not having to provide any support
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2015-06-25T15:57:49Z Baggers: makes sense, well that's cool. Thanks all
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2015-06-25T16:01:53Z Shinmera: CCL works best out on windows out of the free implementations, at least from what I've heard and seen.
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2015-06-25T16:02:06Z Shinmera: SBCL has been running "just fine" for my limited testing as well though.
2015-06-25T16:02:18Z Shinmera: (Windows support for qt-libs is finally complete!)
2015-06-25T16:02:25Z jackdaniel: gz
2015-06-25T16:04:34Z jackdaniel: guess gmp memory won't be managed by gc
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2015-06-25T16:12:15Z Baggers: I use sbcl on windows too with no issues, though my usecase isnt too heavy
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2015-06-25T16:46:27Z Posterdati: hi
2015-06-25T16:46:35Z Posterdati: how it is possible to strip the package name from an object printed out by format?
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2015-06-25T16:57:37Z H4ns: you can bind *package*
2015-06-25T16:58:21Z nyef: Or use ~A instead of ~S, but that has other effects as well.
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2015-06-25T17:13:25Z Posterdati: I'm formatting out over a socket a struct, but the client receives #s(package-name:struct-name ...)
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2015-06-25T17:16:12Z Posterdati: (format socket "~a~%" struct-object)
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2015-06-25T17:36:33Z Posterdati: H4ns: how?
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2015-06-25T17:37:14Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: use some serialization library, it's barbarian what you're doing
2015-06-25T17:37:35Z Posterdati: why, data is sent in clear
2015-06-25T17:38:46Z jackdaniel: you waste billiards of electrons on the network ;) plus, using struct literals is risky
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2015-06-25T18:02:41Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: electrons could not be wasted they only recombine
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2015-06-25T18:07:06Z jackdaniel: fallacy obv, they fall over the edge of the earth
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2015-06-25T18:58:24Z pjb: minion: memo for papachan: you need to provide a test that put your objects in the same equivalence class! (remove-duplicates '((2 2 2) (2 2 3) (2 3 3)) :test (lambda (a b) (and (subsetp a b) (subsetp b a)))) --> ((2 2 2) (2 3 3))
2015-06-25T18:58:24Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell papachan when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-06-25T19:01:42Z pjb: Ober_: akkad: well, you can do tail -f in CL, but using a POSIX API (ie, in most implementations, using FFI).
2015-06-25T19:02:22Z pjb: Ober_: akkad: that said, one could do something with LISTEN, but the problem is that we want to use select or poll.
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2015-06-25T19:04:44Z pjb: Posterdati: (let ((*package* (symbol-package your-symbol))) (format t "~S~%" your-symbol))
2015-06-25T19:05:20Z pjb: Posterdati: use ~A instead of ~S
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2015-06-25T19:06:34Z pjb: jackdaniel: there's only one electron/positron: it's looping and wrapping the universe.
2015-06-25T19:07:36Z pjb: Posterdati: if you have symbols from several packages, you can build a package using all those packages (or importing all those symbols if they're not exported), and use that special I/O package to do your I/O./
2015-06-25T19:07:44Z Bike: well we don't want to waste that one electron's time
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2015-06-25T19:10:30Z eindoofus: hi, i hope this isn't too much of a magic 8 ball question but do you guys happen to know where AI might head in the immediate future (not far future)? as a software developer, i'm wondering whether there might be AI framworks one could tap into, or whether these systems will more likely be more isolated than that.
2015-06-25T19:11:23Z Bike: opencv is some kind of AI and it's a library
2015-06-25T19:11:30Z jackdaniel: eindoofus: obvious direction is deep learning and environment recognition, but winds may change
2015-06-25T19:11:33Z tokenrov1: eindoofus: not really lisp related, but machine learning is big now, especially deep learning, and continues to grow.  there are many libraries.
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2015-06-25T19:12:19Z pjb: eindoofus: in the near future, AI is headed toward google and boston dynamics (and their wanabee competitors).
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2015-06-25T19:13:02Z pjb: http://www.theroboticschallenge.org/
2015-06-25T19:14:33Z eindoofus: wondering whether this will most likely create jobs or kill jobs in the IT world
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2015-06-25T19:14:49Z pjb: If you're good in AI, you'll get a job.
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2015-06-25T19:15:50Z pjb: But jobs are done.  We have to go to universal income societies.
2015-06-25T19:16:16Z jackdaniel: robots will take your job, but it's ok
2015-06-25T19:16:20Z jackdaniel: ;)
2015-06-25T19:16:26Z Posterdati: pjb: thanks
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2015-06-25T19:16:40Z pjb: jackdaniel: it's ok only if we kill capitalism.
2015-06-25T19:17:04Z jackdaniel: pjb: obv
2015-06-25T19:17:06Z pjb: eindoofus: there's #lispcafe for non lisp questions.
2015-06-25T19:17:11Z Posterdati: pjb: I think I will extract message-struct from one package and create a message package to be common by the two
2015-06-25T19:17:18Z Posterdati: using it
2015-06-25T19:17:18Z pjb: I thought it was #lispcafe, sorry.
2015-06-25T19:17:37Z pjb: Posterdati: what about the rest of your data?
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2015-06-25T19:18:12Z jackdaniel: there is a story by Stanisław Lem about whole civilization which died, because everything got automatized, so people had no job,therefore no income for factories - poverty spiral
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2015-06-25T19:19:30Z pjb: jackdaniel: it only comes from your value scale.  Nowadays, the value scale implied by capitalism, is that money is above all.  You don't need humans to make money.
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2015-06-25T19:19:46Z Bike: just gotta go for the HPLD instead. didn't that look fun
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2015-06-25T19:24:57Z BWV998: Eindoofus such kind of multidiscipinary topics are well discussed on #lispcafe :-)
2015-06-25T19:25:38Z Posterdati: pjb: only three kind of data - messages, commands and 3 characters strings
2015-06-25T19:25:51Z eindoofus: BWV998, pjb already told me :)
2015-06-25T19:26:19Z BWV998: OK :-)
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2015-06-25T19:40:09Z aeth: From Tuesday: < PuercoPop> iirc one of Plan 9 developer said 80% of the work was reimplementing standards.
2015-06-25T19:40:51Z aeth: This got me thinking. Perhaps the proper way to think about a LispOS would be to simply put together a list of standards and see which ones are in Quicklisp, if those implementations are usable, and if they're missing or incomplete what can be done to completely cover the list.
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2015-06-25T19:41:31Z Bike: that's kinda funny given how nonstandard plan 9 seems to be http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/programming/c_programming_in_plan_9
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2015-06-25T19:47:46Z nyef: Bike: "Standards are wonderful, there are so many of them to choose from!"
2015-06-25T19:47:53Z aeth: Well what I mean is something like this, for e.g. images: (list "JPEG" "GIF" "PNG" "APNG" "SVG" "BMP")
2015-06-25T19:48:18Z aeth: and for protocols something like this: (list "HTTP" "FTP" "SSL" "IRC")
2015-06-25T19:48:19Z nyef: Bike: Also, there's a difference between an API / language standard, and an interoperability standard.
2015-06-25T19:48:20Z aeth: obviously incomplete
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2015-06-25T19:51:05Z nyef: aeth: You want a LispOS? Here's an approach for you: Define, in writing, what it is precisely that you want, in such a way that you could go down the list of requirements and look at the system you have and say "yes, it has this" or "no, this needs to be done".
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2015-06-25T19:51:42Z nyef: Figure out which bits are absolutely necessary, which are merely very nice to have, and which can be jettisoned in order to get the first version into operation.
2015-06-25T19:52:53Z nyef: Then figure out which bits are already available, which are actively being worked on, which are partly written but abandoned, and which need building from scratch.
2015-06-25T19:53:00Z nyef: Recurse as needed.
2015-06-25T19:53:10Z oGMo: and better, you would go "aha, this is precisely where i would start writing code, and in fact here is everything i would need to write, for the first version"
2015-06-25T19:53:20Z oGMo: yes
2015-06-25T19:53:23Z nyef: You end up with a gap analysis, yes.
2015-06-25T19:53:26Z aeth: nyef: but if I recurse it's not portable code :-p
2015-06-25T19:54:00Z nyef: It's not meant to be portable code, it's a pseudocode algorithm that should be run on your wetware.
2015-06-25T19:55:12Z nyef: I've started to try to do precisely this analysis for various projects. It's a useful exercise.
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2015-06-25T19:57:23Z nyef: For NQ-CLIM I have a list of things that I can implement that are required for the minimal product, small enough that I can knock one out in less than an hour and typically much less, and so on.
2015-06-25T19:57:56Z Fade: I would like to see an example of one of those plans. do you have one you could share, nyef?
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2015-06-25T19:59:11Z nyef: Hrm. The current phase of my Linux-kernel hacking runs to almost a thousand lines of text...
2015-06-25T20:00:30Z nyef: http://paste.lisp.org/display/150517
2015-06-25T20:00:33Z nyef: For NQ-CLIM.
2015-06-25T20:00:39Z aeth: nyef: If I were to define a LispOS concretely, what I probably should do is define the applications that it ought to be able to run *eventually* with no foreign dependencies. Then I should write those applications, even if my current dependencies use CFFI. Then I'll know exactly what is needed in CL.
2015-06-25T20:00:46Z aeth: While at the same time producing actually-usable applications now.
2015-06-25T20:01:16Z aeth: Then that concretely defines what's needed, i.e. the dependencies that are not currently entirely in CL.
2015-06-25T20:01:17Z schjetne: aeth: implementing standards is comparatively easy, you have a document that tells you what to do
2015-06-25T20:01:24Z schjetne: Coming up with original stuff is the hard part
2015-06-25T20:01:53Z aeth: schjetne: original?
2015-06-25T20:02:09Z schjetne: the next CLIM
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2015-06-25T20:02:17Z schjetne: for instance
2015-06-25T20:03:00Z schjetne: And the next IDE and everything else that's going to attract actual users
2015-06-25T20:03:09Z Fade: cool. thanks!
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2015-06-25T20:03:18Z aeth: I don't think the point is to be original, but rather to copy well (from lots of sources).
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2015-06-25T20:03:35Z nyef: Fade: Note that this is (as all such plans are) a work-in-progress, and this in particular is missing the upper levels of the analysis.
2015-06-25T20:03:56Z Fade nods
2015-06-25T20:04:18Z nyef: Also, I am not accepting contributions to NQ-CLIM at this time.
2015-06-25T20:04:29Z Fade: :)
2015-06-25T20:04:33Z nyef: The time may come that I will, but tihs is not that time.
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2015-06-25T20:04:39Z aeth: schjetne: but yes I agree that the tools are where it's at. That's why imo the point is to build some large applications that require surrounding infrastructure of lots of tools, including of course an editor
2015-06-25T20:05:26Z schjetne: aeth: a blend of the Symbolics, Smalltalk machine, Macintosh, Windows, OpenLook, GNOME, KDE, etc. looks could be either wonderful or horrible. Making it wonderful is really, really hard.
2015-06-25T20:06:24Z schjetne: And sometimes just repeating old stuff won't cut it.
2015-06-25T20:06:45Z aeth: schjetne: well a lot of old stuff was for reasons that are no longer relevant, like performance
2015-06-25T20:07:17Z aeth: A lot of really bad designs seem to be because machines used to be very, very limited.
2015-06-25T20:09:10Z oGMo: yes, instead of reductionalism and finding a practical starting point one can accomplish, instead eschew this and start by trying to cram every possible overly ambitious feature and eventuality you can come up with, before you get started
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2015-06-25T20:09:12Z aeth: Modern designs can take a bit of a performance hit to be better designs.
2015-06-25T20:09:17Z oGMo: a more sure way to success i've never heard
2015-06-25T20:10:08Z aeth: oGMo: I hope you're not replying to me, I didn't say anything like that.
2015-06-25T20:10:57Z schjetne: I might have sounded like I did, listing all those GUI environments
2015-06-25T20:11:06Z aeth: oGMo: what I mean about tools is (1) build an application using what exists, (2) build stuff around that application, (3) generalize those tools
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2015-06-25T20:11:52Z aeth: oGMo: so e.g. in the context of a #lispgames, a game that grows and grows could eventually have a bunch of game engine related stuff develop around it to make editing the game easier
2015-06-25T20:11:59Z oGMo: aeth: GLOVES
2015-06-25T20:12:01Z aeth: But you obviously start with the game, not the other stuff
2015-06-25T20:12:46Z aeth: oGMo: GLOVES?
2015-06-25T20:12:52Z oGMo: if you want a lispos, write that; if you want an editor, write that .. if you start on one of these projects seriously, you are not likely to write anything else
2015-06-25T20:12:54Z schjetne: I think the first step is convince everyone that this is going to be worth all the time, money and effort to develop. That the investment will pay off in the end.
2015-06-25T20:13:51Z aeth: oGMo: one does not simply "write" a lispos. At least not an OS in the broader sense, which includes a collection of useful libraries, applications, etc.
2015-06-25T20:13:54Z oGMo: schjetne: and the easiest way to convince people is to go write a working project people want to use and extend
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2015-06-25T20:14:27Z aeth: If you set out to write LispOS, you'll probably never finish.
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2015-06-25T20:14:55Z oGMo: probably since such an endeavor is rather silly to begin with
2015-06-25T20:15:03Z nyef: aeth: One does not simply "write" almost anything. Even a short story or a novel will tend to grow over repeated revisions.
2015-06-25T20:15:12Z oGMo: if anything, better interop tools are going to get everyone a lot further
2015-06-25T20:15:56Z schjetne: I'd say we're talking about a project on the order of complexity of GNOME 3, and we don't even have the toolkit yet.
2015-06-25T20:16:01Z oGMo: though, getting your lisp to the point you can _write_ an OS would be pretty useful too, even if you don't
2015-06-25T20:16:42Z schjetne: And that's just talking about the version that would run on top of *nix
2015-06-25T20:16:48Z aeth: oGMo: A modern lisp machine *today* is a silly idea. But a modern lisp machine would make more sense if there was a LispOS. And a LispOS would make more sense if there were lots more Lisp-related applications. etc.
2015-06-25T20:17:13Z aeth: So imo you cannot even begin to think of a useful LispOS or LispM without first writing something closer to what GNOME or KDE is, as schjetne said
2015-06-25T20:17:29Z aeth: Unless you just want to port GNOME to the LispOS and negate all the Lispiness of it
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2015-06-25T20:17:50Z schjetne: Before that we need to figure out if Lisp users, commercial or not, really want it badly enough.
2015-06-25T20:18:14Z oGMo: write something _you_ need, because at the end of the day it will be a success for at least 1 user
2015-06-25T20:18:20Z Bike: is "lisp machine" supposed to entail actual hardware design
2015-06-25T20:18:28Z aeth: Bike: in my sentence, yes.
2015-06-25T20:18:36Z schjetne: aeth: no, of course the Lispiness is the whole point of it.
2015-06-25T20:18:45Z aeth: LispM would be the hardware, LispOS would be the software that could run on the LispM or x86_64 (the latter would be 99% of all users probably, perhaps 100%)
2015-06-25T20:18:56Z Bike: why do you even want special hardware?
2015-06-25T20:19:00Z aeth: Bike: exactly.
2015-06-25T20:19:15Z aeth: The use case doesn't exist for the special hardware yet because the OS doesn't exist yet and the applications do not exist yet.
2015-06-25T20:19:53Z Bike: no, no, i mean even theoretically. why on earth would having your own OS imply having specialized hardware for it?
2015-06-25T20:20:03Z aeth: schjetne has the perfect analogy. You'd want to start with something more on the scale of KDE/GNOME. A big suite of interoperable software on top of Linux/Unix
2015-06-25T20:20:29Z nyef: My current thought on a LispM is basically similar to a MacBook: You could run OSX on non-Apple hardware (though not legally), but it won't be as good an experience as running it on the hardware that it was made for.
2015-06-25T20:20:41Z Bike: i read an OS design once that mentioned hardware should have easier icache flushing. they had pretty good reasons. lots of detail. for this minor thing.
2015-06-25T20:20:58Z Bike: i mean, i'm curious what kind of advantage is supposed to come from the hardware.
2015-06-25T20:21:05Z schjetne: And GNOME has the backing of a large company like Red Hat, we'd probably have to pitch it to the Lisp companies.
2015-06-25T20:21:15Z Bike: as far as i know apple machines are better on apple hardware because it means things don't have to work on a billion different knockoffs of things
2015-06-25T20:21:16Z aeth: Bike: well it's possible that the days of specialized LispM hardware are basically over because Intel will be able to make a faster general purpose machine.
2015-06-25T20:21:27Z schjetne: And prove that it's that much better than Emacs with SLIME, or the ACL or LW IDEs
2015-06-25T20:21:30Z aeth: Bike: which is why even Apple uses Intel now
2015-06-25T20:21:32Z Bike: apple software is better on*
2015-06-25T20:21:52Z aeth: so a true LispM with its own CPU architecture is probably impractical at this point in time
2015-06-25T20:22:13Z Bike: i just don't understand why you're taking custom hardware as a goal in itself.
2015-06-25T20:22:26Z aeth: Bike: well no the point is lisp all the way down
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2015-06-25T20:22:38Z Bike: why?
2015-06-25T20:22:45Z nyef: Bike: It's two sides of the same coin. They don't have to support a million random hardware variations, and they can support the hardware variations that they DO support far better than, say, Linux will tend to.
2015-06-25T20:22:56Z Bike: right, right.
2015-06-25T20:23:10Z Bike: i just mean that's nothing to do with the ISA or something, y'know?
2015-06-25T20:23:21Z nyef: Absolutely.
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2015-06-25T20:24:07Z nyef: It's not the architecture at all, it's that the overall hardware/software system was developed together /as a product/.
2015-06-25T20:24:13Z schjetne: I'd imagine that most Lisp users with lots of money aren't going to care about Lisp all the way down to the hardware, and if they do interface their Lisp projects with hardware, they probably won't be using an experimental OS in the first place.
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2015-06-25T20:24:52Z aeth: Bike: Lisp all the way down means the whole thing can be a coherent whole. Yes, sort of like Apple I guess.
2015-06-25T20:24:52Z nyef: Clearly, I am not most Lisp users with lots of money.
2015-06-25T20:24:56Z Bike: now i want to see what parts of the PowerPC design Apple influenced, and why
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2015-06-25T20:25:10Z oleo: it's not about do it but spread it.....
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2015-06-25T20:25:30Z aeth: Bike: a LispM would simply a LispOS too because of drivers, yes.
2015-06-25T20:25:34Z oleo: lisp machines once were there......
2015-06-25T20:25:38Z schjetne: Lisp all the way down is something to strive for, but it won't bring in any support from the industry.
2015-06-25T20:25:47Z oleo: but it didn't take hold-on
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2015-06-25T20:26:09Z oleo: the markets were penetrated with other stuff.....
2015-06-25T20:26:23Z Bike: Why is it something to strive for? I LIKE having machines that can do different things.
2015-06-25T20:27:08Z Bike: PowerPC is mostly based on POWER, I don't think Apple just decided "well we're going to need to redo all of the hardware for no reason"
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2015-06-25T20:27:36Z aeth: Bike: the different machines that "do different things" are all opinionated toward certain ways of doing things, anyway.
2015-06-25T20:27:44Z aeth: Same with OSes.
2015-06-25T20:28:02Z schjetne: Bike: having device drivers, scheduling, memory, etc. in a huge, opaque blob written in C is hardly ideal
2015-06-25T20:28:28Z aeth: and yes, C blobs are the major flaw of Linux imo
2015-06-25T20:28:54Z pjb-:  everything in lisp is nice because you can read and modify everything within a single IDE.
2015-06-25T20:29:02Z aeth: Strangely enough, if you wanted to do a LispM today, you could probably get by on x86_64 ok but you'd probably need your own GPU if you wanted it to perform well without a C blob.
2015-06-25T20:29:04Z Bike: Who said anything about C? Prsumably you have some machine code interface in lispy form and use that.
2015-06-25T20:29:30Z schjetne: Yes, the compiler
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2015-06-25T20:29:38Z nyef: aeth: As long as you don't need graphics rendering, you can do quite well even without your "C blob".
2015-06-25T20:29:44Z aeth: It wouldn't be as pure with x86_64 but afaik there'd be no major issues and you could run more stuff.
2015-06-25T20:29:53Z Bike: I mean look, all I'm thinking is if you want to do this thing don't get into something as involved as hardware design without a really good reason.
2015-06-25T20:29:57Z aeth: nyef: Unfortunately that then limits the LispOS to servers
2015-06-25T20:30:04Z nyef: No, it doesn't.
2015-06-25T20:30:06Z Bike: cos it sure seems like your actual reason is some kind of creepy ideological purity
2015-06-25T20:30:23Z Bike: you don't need a GPU to do word processing in a window
2015-06-25T20:31:27Z aeth: yuck... "word processing"
2015-06-25T20:31:41Z Shinmera: I for one am getting really tired of this endless, seemingly completely pointless discussion every day.
2015-06-25T20:31:48Z nyef: Shinmera: You too, huh?
2015-06-25T20:32:06Z aeth: so many spreadsheets would be better off as databases, and Excel is pretty much the only component of Office one could make an argument for its utility imo
2015-06-25T20:32:18Z aeth: "word processing" -> clone Office, I'm not sure that'd be worth doing
2015-06-25T20:32:34Z Shinmera: aeth: nobody cares.
2015-06-25T20:32:49Z nyef: That's a fairly blinkered view. I mean, I do most of my word processing in emacs.
2015-06-25T20:33:17Z aeth: nyef: well I'm not sure that that counts as word processing, it's text editing, even if it's in a markup language that gets rendered to something else like HTML or PDF
2015-06-25T20:33:21Z Bike: i mean you know what i think some neat lisp-specific hardware was? connection machines. those were cool. but instead it's always like we need everything to be lisp because i don't know
2015-06-25T20:34:19Z aeth: Bike: everything in Lisp would provide some major advantages, especially if you had a good IDE and related tools to handle Lisp on that machine.
2015-06-25T20:34:38Z aeth: Because of Lisp's syntax and features you could build some interesting ways to work on code on that machine
2015-06-25T20:34:43Z Bike: what the fuck do IDEs have to do with the instruction set
2015-06-25T20:35:11Z Bike: are you going to redesign the mobo soldering to be lispier?
2015-06-25T20:35:27Z Shinmera: Yeah, all those straight wires man. Got to curve them like parens.
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2015-06-25T20:36:14Z aeth: Bike: forget about the LispM imo. Lisp isn't at that point right now and hardware isn't at that point right now.
2015-06-25T20:36:25Z aeth: LispOS is the more interesting point
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2015-06-25T20:36:47Z BWV998: With: try to be respectful
2015-06-25T20:37:13Z BWV998: Ops try to respect the Unix language :-)
2015-06-25T20:37:45Z schjetne: aeth: it's easy to imagine benefits of Lisp all the way down, but it also needs to fit in the reality where people use computers to earn a livelyhood and put food on the table. Because those are the people who will ultimately have to build this thing.
2015-06-25T20:38:09Z Shinmera: It also needs to just get done, which I don't see happening anywhere in this discussion that's been happening for days now.
2015-06-25T20:39:11Z Bike: i'm fine with the idea of a lisp os, but when you start talking about taking on hardware design for no reason i have to doubt you have a serious plan
2015-06-25T20:39:16Z aeth: Shinmera: Discussions can be useful for finding design dead ends. If you just code without a plan, you can waste a lot of time.
2015-06-25T20:39:27Z Bike: you can waste a lot of time planning without code
2015-06-25T20:39:29Z Shinmera: aeth: But if you don't code at all you waste even more time.
2015-06-25T20:40:01Z aeth: Bike: it depends on the complexity of the thing being discussed. A lot of subsetting is needed if it's very complex, and it's important to find a useful subset.
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2015-06-25T20:41:42Z aeth: Bike: In this case, I think it was brought up that an actual, practical, useful subset rather than just a theoretical toy would be a desktop environment and application suite in Common Lisp, presumably built on top of Linux/Unix. No, it wouldn't be Lisp all the way down, but it could provide actual utility to people sooner.
2015-06-25T20:41:53Z aeth: i.e. the analogy to GNOME
2015-06-25T20:42:08Z Bike: great. do it. beach already had some plans for that, i think. gimme a word processor i can use at work.
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2015-06-25T20:42:35Z schjetne: aeth: but you still have to convince us that all of that is worth the cost of developing something like GNOME
2015-06-25T20:42:38Z pjb-: on a lisp machine you could hack the dma to convert lisp data structures and types from cpu to gpu.
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2015-06-25T20:42:44Z schjetne: I think it's pointless to have these discussions day after day when we don't even have the toolkit issue sorted.
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2015-06-25T20:43:11Z pjb-: even on a pc i guess you could program a sophisticated dma to do that.
2015-06-25T20:43:26Z nyef: schjetne: Seriously? No, no convincing necessary. Applying ass to chair and getting a project plan and some initial code out there is what's necessary.
2015-06-25T20:43:42Z aeth: schjetne: GTK+ is part of the GNOME Project, so a project of comparable scale to GNOME would require the toolkit first (or at least early)
2015-06-25T20:43:49Z aeth: So the analogy to GNOME raised earlier is actually perfect.
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2015-06-25T20:44:07Z pjb-: i dont know if it's pointless. it could eentually motivate somebody to do it.
2015-06-25T20:44:52Z Shinmera: If anything it demotivates me.
2015-06-25T20:44:58Z nyef: pjb-: Seems to me that it's more annoying the people who are already working on it.
2015-06-25T20:45:05Z Shinmera: Mezzano and similar projects are proof that you /can/ just sit down and fucking do it instead of wasting everyone's time phantasizing to no end.
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2015-06-25T20:45:41Z schjetne: This should give an idea of the kind of resources that goes into something like GNOME: https://www.gnome.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/GNOME-Annual-Report-2013.pdf
2015-06-25T20:46:00Z nyef: Clasp is an example of someone saying "I need a Lisp that does X", and setting out to get it, no matter what it takes.
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2015-06-25T20:47:24Z aeth: schjetne: That's the kind of resources that goes into *running* something like GNOME today, not the kind of resources that goes into *starting* something like GNOME.
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2015-06-25T21:23:55Z attila_lendvai: remind me please, what is the name of that implementation of the cl standard beach is working on? it's basically a cl library using a small subset to implement the whole of the cl standard, or something along that line...
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2015-06-25T21:24:12Z attila_lendvai: googling it is beyond my google fu
2015-06-25T21:24:41Z antoszka: attila_lendvai: SICL?
2015-06-25T21:24:48Z attila_lendvai: damn, it's SICL, just got the spark from mentioning his name... :)
2015-06-25T21:24:51Z attila_lendvai: thanks antoszka
2015-06-25T21:24:52Z antoszka: :)
2015-06-25T21:24:53Z antoszka: np
2015-06-25T21:25:23Z attila_lendvai: so, I'm wondering why isn't clasp using sicl? I write a mail to the author...
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2015-06-25T21:25:35Z Bike: well, he's using cleavir.
2015-06-25T21:26:26Z Bike: for data structures i think he wanted to use something usable in C++, so, C++ classes, which SICL conses for example are not.
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2015-06-25T21:26:49Z attila_lendvai: yeah, I was running ahead, judging the state of affairs from the readme instead of the code itself...
2015-06-25T21:27:00Z knobo: I remember when I used to code lisp, I sometimes inserted a statement that would invoke the debugger with an argument
2015-06-25T21:27:01Z Bike: that too, yeah.
2015-06-25T21:27:07Z knobo: So that I could inspect the arguement
2015-06-25T21:27:17Z knobo: then select continue
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2015-06-25T21:27:29Z Bike: knobo: break?
2015-06-25T21:27:45Z attila_lendvai: Bike: well, that shouldn't be a big issue. or if it is, then SICL needs some extensions to make it more melleable
2015-06-25T21:27:49Z knobo: right, probably, yes. it's that simple
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2015-06-25T21:29:15Z knobo: but now sbcl says "deleating unreachable code"
2015-06-25T21:30:06Z knobo: must be something else wrong
2015-06-25T21:30:27Z Bike: attila_lendvai: i mean, just for data structures. for most of the higher level ish stuff i think meister just copied out of ECL, so he would have to adapt as little as possible
2015-06-25T21:31:46Z attila_lendvai: yeah, I get that. it's the idealist in me who is screaming... but then I haven't evaluated sicl, so I don't know how viable it is to base sicl on the clasp base infrastructure
2015-06-25T21:32:13Z jasom: attila_lendvai: clasp uses  cleavir which is part of sicl
2015-06-25T21:32:54Z attila_lendvai: I know, but sicl is much more than cleavir. (but at least it's a proof that the author knows about sicl)
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2015-06-25T21:33:40Z Bike: i feel like i should apologize for getting clasp to copy some code from sbcl for defining obscurer standard functions, now
2015-06-25T21:33:55Z jasom: attila_lendvai: drmeister is the author of clasp and hangs out in here, so you can always ask him
2015-06-25T21:34:09Z akkad: how is clasp coming along?
2015-06-25T21:34:26Z attila_lendvai: jasom: thanks, good to know
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2015-06-25T21:35:20Z Bike: he's also been working closely with beach (i.e. Strandh), mostly with cleavir
2015-06-25T21:35:40Z jasom: akkad: My understanding of clasp's status is that it works, but is a bit slow.  It is usable for gluing C++ libraries together, and I believe drmeister has replaced boost.python in his own projects with it (but not sure on that last one)
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2015-06-25T21:36:53Z Shinmera: Clasp master "works" but it's so slow as to not be feasibly usable for much.
2015-06-25T21:37:06Z Shinmera: Clasp current is so much in flux that it doesn't even build right now.
2015-06-25T21:37:37Z Shinmera: Things are changing fast though, so hopefully we'll have things back to a more stable state soon.
2015-06-25T21:40:09Z attila_lendvai: clasp (and sicl) resonated the hacker in me... it's been a while I've felt that warm fuzzy feeling... :) (even though the idea of touching anything C++ is a major turnaway, but oh well, it makes sense to use it as a bootstrap vehicle)
2015-06-25T21:40:46Z Shinmera: Well the idea is that you won't have to touch any C++ anymore once it's complete.
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2015-06-25T21:47:31Z vydd: Hi, I tried running commonqt on osx and got "error opening shared object libsmokeqtcore.dylib". Searched the logs online and it looks like someone here had the same problem not long ago. No solution was posted though. Is commonqt broken on osx atm or is there a known way to fix this?
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2015-06-25T21:47:50Z Shinmera: You have to install the lib.
2015-06-25T21:47:53Z akkad: vydd could be 32/64bit thing
2015-06-25T21:48:50Z Shinmera: vydd: qt-libs does that automagically for you, but the current quicklisp version is broken on os x.
2015-06-25T21:49:07Z Shinmera: vydd: if you clone it from github, it should work though.
2015-06-25T21:49:08Z vydd: Shinmera: ah, where do I get it?
2015-06-25T21:49:18Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shinmera/qt-libs
2015-06-25T21:49:25Z vydd: great, thanks!
2015-06-25T21:49:45Z Shinmera: See the notes on OS X. I don't have a clean test machine, only a dev one, so I might be missing some additionally necessary steps.
2015-06-25T21:49:55Z Shinmera has yet to see about setting up a VM
2015-06-25T21:50:12Z vydd: oh, also, somewhat related, how do I set PATH for asdf? Because of my config, I needed to edit qt.asd for it to be able to find qmake
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2015-06-25T21:51:24Z Shinmera: setting the PATH envvar is an implementation specific thing.
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2015-06-25T21:52:54Z Shinmera: See https://github.com/Shinmera/qt-libs/blob/master/qt-libs.lisp#L83 for a minimal wrapper
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2015-06-25T22:09:52Z Shinmera: vydd: Let me know if you encounter any problems. For now, I need to head to bed.
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2015-06-25T22:17:57Z pjb: The fundamental dichotomy in computing is the typing of variables vs. typing of values.  In usual processors, the values are not typed.  So when you use an instruction like LEA on an integer, or a character, it "works".  If you use ADD on two pointers, it "works".  We want a lisp processor that when you try to do that, you get a trap and defer to a trap handler (that will call the debugger or whatever).
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2015-06-25T22:18:28Z pjb: We don't want to have indiscriminate bit patterns in memory, we want to have type-tagged values.
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2015-06-25T22:19:44Z pjb: Of course, by way of virtual machines, you can implement one onto the other, but each level of virtual machine introduces efficiency overheads (unless you happen to be implementing it in microcode, which is not possible in general with the current microprocessors).
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2015-06-25T23:17:15Z attila_lendvai: ...or if you have enough static typing to get away with it. and the other parts of the code that doesn't need to be fast can implement the tagging in user code.
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2015-06-25T23:23:47Z pjb: attila_lendvai: you have to explicit your assumptions.  If we want it managed by the hardware, is to ensure a safety whatever the compiler used.  If you want to ensure it with a compiler that has enough static typing to get away with it, then you need to control the compilers, and prevent the loading of binary code not coming from your controlled compiler.
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2015-06-25T23:25:12Z pjb: I find it much easier to guarantee this safety at the machine level than with a controlled compiler, because people are much too lured to break this safety.
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2015-06-25T23:28:39Z attila_lendvai: pjb: in my ideal system "cpu's" are implemented as needed in FPGA's. I assume trusting the compiler chain, trusting the entire bootstrap, etc. and having a rather simple open hardware that may have many gates and many MHz's but not much complexity for easy auditing. fare is writing a speech about this, it'll be a nice read when it's published.
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2015-06-26T00:36:52Z Bike: pjb: well you have an actual reason/design plan, so thanks for that
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2015-06-26T02:37:24Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-06-26T02:38:28Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-06-26T02:38:34Z nyef: Early today?
2015-06-26T02:38:42Z beach: A bit, yes.
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2015-06-26T02:39:09Z beach: nyef: How are things?
2015-06-26T02:39:33Z nyef: Mostly okay.
2015-06-26T02:39:51Z nyef: Looking at a weekend of setup, teardown, and monitoring servers for work, though.
2015-06-26T02:40:01Z beach: :(
2015-06-26T02:40:45Z nyef: I don't want to jinx it, but the past few times we've done this, the servers were MUCH better behaved than the first few times.
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2015-06-26T02:41:44Z beach: Don't tell me you are superstitious.
2015-06-26T02:42:03Z nyef: Don't tell me it's bad luck to be superstitious. d-:
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2015-06-26T02:42:09Z beach: Heh!
2015-06-26T02:42:21Z nyef: There's nothing quite like ten hours of having to spend one out of every five minutes adjusting load balancers and restarting servers.
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2015-06-26T02:43:03Z beach: Sounds bad.
2015-06-26T02:43:15Z nyef: It was dreadful. Two days of that, back-to-back.
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2015-06-26T02:44:07Z nyef: And, while it was happening, we drafted the post-mortem analysis, and had to drastically improve the system behavior over the following few weeks.
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2015-06-26T02:45:03Z beach: It pays the bills, I suppose.
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2015-06-26T02:45:57Z nyef: It does.
2015-06-26T02:48:26Z theos: so if you didnt have bills, you wont have to suffer like this
2015-06-26T02:48:48Z nyef: Alternately, if I were to build another way to pay the bills...
2015-06-26T02:49:09Z beach: I have been working very hard to get the bills down to a minimum.
2015-06-26T02:49:41Z theos: thats a good approach beach
2015-06-26T02:50:57Z beach: Yes.  Thanks.  Also, fewer bills to pay means more time for Common Lisp hacking.
2015-06-26T02:51:13Z nyef: Amen to that. (-:
2015-06-26T02:51:16Z beach is making an attempt at getting back to the topic.
2015-06-26T02:52:16Z beach: nyef: [reading the logs] What was the expression again?  "all hat and no cattle" was it? :)
2015-06-26T02:52:30Z nyef: Heh. Yeah.
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2015-06-26T02:53:23Z nyef: So, I'm slowly getting to the point of being able to graft a medium to a sheet.
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2015-06-26T02:53:59Z beach: Uh, that's not how the word "graft" is used in the CLIM II spec.
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2015-06-26T02:54:16Z beach: "associate" maybe.
2015-06-26T02:54:27Z nyef: clim 8.3.4.1
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2015-06-26T02:55:37Z beach: Hmm.
2015-06-26T02:56:08Z beach: You are right.  I had forgotten about that.
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2015-06-26T02:56:37Z beach: Actually, engraft and degraft.
2015-06-26T02:57:03Z nyef: Keeps it firmly in the realm of verbs, not nouns.
2015-06-26T02:57:35Z beach: It is unfortunate that the same term is used to associate a sheet hierarchy with a display server.
2015-06-26T02:57:57Z beach: Anyways, congratulations!
2015-06-26T02:58:01Z nyef: Yes, there are basically three different, but related, uses of the term "graft".
2015-06-26T02:58:12Z beach: I hate it when that happens.
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2015-06-26T02:58:53Z beach: What's the third one?
2015-06-26T02:59:05Z nyef: The noun.
2015-06-26T02:59:12Z beach: Yeah, OK.
2015-06-26T02:59:21Z beach: My favorite McCLIM pun.
2015-06-26T02:59:46Z beach: (defmethod graft ((graft graft)) graft)
2015-06-26T03:00:30Z nyef: Once I get the permanent-medium-sheet-output-mixin thing working, I'm planning to turn to section 12.5.
2015-06-26T03:00:51Z nyef: Well, and the underlying section 10.2.
2015-06-26T03:00:58Z beach just deleted the CLIM II spec window, that he now has to re-create.
2015-06-26T03:01:45Z nyef: I've determined that I can implement a good chunk of 10.2 (drawing-option binding forms) without implementing 10.1 (the medium components that get BOUND by those forms).
2015-06-26T03:02:05Z beach: True, but why would you want to?
2015-06-26T03:02:08Z nyef: Which would let me get the drawing functions out of the way before I go back and start filling in the ink stuff.
2015-06-26T03:02:25Z beach: I see.
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2015-06-26T03:02:53Z nyef: If I do the ink stuff first, I'm juggling the foreground, background, and ink options "manually".
2015-06-26T03:03:09Z nyef: If I do the infrastructure stuff first, I don't.
2015-06-26T03:04:02Z beach: I have to take your word for it.  I am not quite awake yet, so I don't see it.
2015-06-26T03:04:19Z nyef: All of this, and ink, and a couple of small things, and I end up at my first major milestone: the rendering_1 sample program only using XLIB for event handling.
2015-06-26T03:04:51Z beach: Wow, you actually did what you told aeth to do, didn't you?
2015-06-26T03:06:01Z nyef: ... Yes, of course. And we both did a few years ago with the LispOS thing, even if we're not that much further into it now than we were then, really.
2015-06-26T03:06:39Z beach: Right.  Let's not start that discussion again, ok? :)
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2015-06-26T03:07:41Z nyef: Fine by me, just pointing out that it shouldn't be too surprising that I did the actual planning. (-:
2015-06-26T03:07:57Z beach: You are right.  I apologize.
2015-06-26T03:09:21Z nyef: I've also been doing the same thing with my Linux-kernel work. In fact, planned out the next major chunk of functionality that I need to write earlier tonight.
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2015-06-26T03:11:03Z theos: are you porting the kernel to CL?
2015-06-26T03:13:19Z beach: theos: I don't think so.  He was just giving that as another example of the same kind of project planning.
2015-06-26T03:13:52Z theos: oh. i was about to jump out of excitement
2015-06-26T03:14:52Z nyef: theos: No, I'm porting to a particular set of decade-old MIPS hardware, so that I can run SBCL on said hardware.
2015-06-26T03:15:12Z theos: nyef thats exciting too!
2015-06-26T03:15:41Z nyef: It's been exciting, fun, frustrating, enlightening...
2015-06-26T03:18:02Z theos: has someone worked on a teaching system in CL? something like a self-teaching system
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2015-06-26T03:18:35Z theos: i want to make one for my kid and i am looking for ideas
2015-06-26T03:18:55Z nyef: Like a language-learning setup, or something else?
2015-06-26T03:19:42Z theos: yes. full education suit! so the kid doesnt need a human teacher. ever
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2015-06-26T03:21:30Z mmercer: hi. #lisp is dead, so I thought I'd ask in separate channels.. what lisp follows functional programming paradigm the most?
2015-06-26T03:21:37Z mmercer: ##lisp*
2015-06-26T03:22:01Z theos: this channel is about Common Lisp(CL).
2015-06-26T03:22:52Z beach: mmercer: There is no consensus when it comes to determining what language is "a Lisp".
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2015-06-26T03:23:18Z beach: mmercer: Given that, I would say that no Lisp follows the functional paradigm.
2015-06-26T03:23:27Z mmercer: how come?
2015-06-26T03:23:42Z beach: How come there is no consensus?  Because people tend to disagree.
2015-06-26T03:24:24Z mmercer: no, how come you say that no lisp follows the functional paradigm.
2015-06-26T03:24:26Z beach: Because I just defined "a Lisp" to be a programming language that has CLOS in it.
2015-06-26T03:24:49Z beach: I can do that, because there is no consensus.
2015-06-26T03:25:35Z mmercer: so you're basically saying that common lisp doesn't follow functional paradigm?
2015-06-26T03:25:42Z beach: Definitely not.
2015-06-26T03:26:10Z nyef: Also, a language which forces its users to write functional code is typically somewhat rare.
2015-06-26T03:26:17Z chu: This thing claims to be a "purely functional scheme" https://github.com/aoh/owl-lisp but it's not common lisp, so why would you want to use it?
2015-06-26T03:26:26Z beach: I mean, that is what I am saying, and it definitely does not "follow the functional paradigm"
2015-06-26T03:27:06Z mmercer: let me repharse.. out of the lisp, scheme, clojure, which one is the most functional?
2015-06-26T03:27:31Z nyef: Defining "functional" as "usable"... Well, I'm here, and not there.
2015-06-26T03:27:46Z beach: mmercer: Since there is no consensus when it comes to determining what is "a Lisp", it is not clear whether Scheme or Clojure qualify.
2015-06-26T03:27:55Z nyef: Defining "functional" as "side-effect free"... I don't care.
2015-06-26T03:28:31Z beach: mmercer: To me, Scheme and Clojure are not Lisps.
2015-06-26T03:28:52Z theos: mmercer you can make CL follow any paradigm you want. CL is the best lisp there is!
2015-06-26T03:28:58Z chu: ^
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2015-06-26T03:31:37Z wldcordeiro: Without getting into some holy war kind of stuff, what's the best Lisp dialect to install if I want to work through SICP?
2015-06-26T03:32:04Z wldcordeiro: I know there's Closure, Scheme, Common Lisp and others.
2015-06-26T03:32:12Z williamyao: wldcordeiro: Well, the book itself uses Scheme. No reason to try to swim upstream.
2015-06-26T03:32:15Z Quadrescence: wldcordeiro, Chicken Scheme, Racket (using Scheme language)
2015-06-26T03:32:25Z mmercer: beach definition of what is lisp shouldn't matter with the rephrased question
2015-06-26T03:32:37Z mmercer: but I guess now you'll ask me to define what functional programming is :P
2015-06-26T03:32:50Z wldcordeiro: williamyao: Ah I didn't know it used Scheme, the part I read just mentioned Common Lisp, MacLisp and another historical version.
2015-06-26T03:33:09Z wldcordeiro: What's the beach lisp? Is it lisp you can use in the ocean? :P
2015-06-26T03:33:21Z beach: *sigh*
2015-06-26T03:33:55Z williamyao: mmercer: If you're looking for a focus on immutable data structures, parallelism, lack of side effects and other things associated with the "functional" style, go with Clojure.
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2015-06-26T03:34:15Z wldcordeiro: lol that's great there's someone with the nickname beach here.
2015-06-26T03:34:46Z beach: There is also someone with the nickname someone.
2015-06-26T03:35:04Z wldcordeiro: Now we just need a person with the nickname nickname.
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2015-06-26T03:35:22Z mmercer: williamyao cheers
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2015-06-26T03:35:37Z nyef: The technical term for IRC is "handle", not "nickname".
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2015-06-26T03:36:00Z williamyao: We only give straight answers after subjecting you to a battery of riddles and semantics :)
2015-06-26T03:36:08Z nyef: Although the command for changing it is traditionally "/nick".
2015-06-26T03:36:24Z wldcordeiro: nyef I almost said handle but decided on nickname because of the command.
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2015-06-26T03:41:43Z wldcordeiro: williamyao: Scheme meaning the mit-scheme package? Or is there another out there?
2015-06-26T03:41:56Z wldcordeiro: I assume sicp uses that one, iirc it's an MIT book.
2015-06-26T03:42:17Z beach: wldcordeiro: This is off-topic, but there are many Scheme implementations available.
2015-06-26T03:42:34Z williamyao: Yeah, that's a _whole_ different can of worms.
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2015-06-26T03:42:57Z wldcordeiro: Heh I assume there are a ton of implementations, Lisp seems to be language with the most implementations that I know of.
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2015-06-26T03:43:07Z williamyao: Any Scheme implementation should work; the Scheme standard is tiny, and SICP isn't so much a Scheme book as a general introduction to computing.
2015-06-26T03:43:50Z nyef: beach: Does it make any sense to have a sheet-with-medium-mixin combined with a sheet-mute-output-mixin?
2015-06-26T03:44:02Z wldcordeiro: williamyao: I've been programming for years but in languages like Python, Ruby, Javascript or C++ and Lisp has always been that "I should check that out" language haha
2015-06-26T03:44:15Z beach: nyef: You mean a sheet that is both?
2015-06-26T03:44:19Z nyef: Yeah.
2015-06-26T03:44:20Z beach: Then yes, I think so.
2015-06-26T03:44:28Z beach: Oh, wait.
2015-06-26T03:44:31Z beach: Mute "output".
2015-06-26T03:44:34Z nyef: Right.
2015-06-26T03:44:40Z nyef: Can't output to it, but has a medium?
2015-06-26T03:44:53Z nyef: Seems a little off.
2015-06-26T03:44:59Z beach: I tend to agree.
2015-06-26T03:44:59Z phf: beach, nyef are you guys writing a clim implementation from scratch?
2015-06-26T03:45:20Z nyef: phf: We're writing two clim implementations. At least two.
2015-06-26T03:46:13Z beach: wldcordeiro: This is a Common Lisp channel, so we all recommend Common Lisp.
2015-06-26T03:46:22Z phf: far out, i want to write one too!
2015-06-26T03:46:40Z nyef: beach: Okay, so given that, should {temporary,permanent}-medium-sheet-output-mixin inherit standard-sheet-output-mixin as well as sheet-with-medium-mixin, or is that the responsibility of the subclasses?
2015-06-26T03:47:28Z nyef: The -output- term in the mixin names is what suggests that it should have the standard-sheet-output-mixin, but the spec doesn't actually call for it.
2015-06-26T03:47:32Z williamyao: wldcordeiro: Yup, we would all probably recommend Practical Common Lisp as a starter Lisp book, if you want to see what you can do with the language; as I said, SICP isn't so much a Lisp book.
2015-06-26T03:47:44Z beach: nyef: I am incapable of determining that without seeing the result in the form of real code and real examples.
2015-06-26T03:47:56Z nyef: Okay, fair enough.
2015-06-26T03:47:57Z nalik891: hi guys. Someone could point me at some CL program examples, to make a wide idea about practical uses?
2015-06-26T03:48:11Z nyef: And I think I found a line of argument that says "leave it to the subclasses".
2015-06-26T03:48:19Z beach: nalik891: Any idea what domain you would like?
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2015-06-26T03:49:09Z nalik891: beach yeah gimme 2 minutes to explain
2015-06-26T03:49:37Z beach: nalik891: You could go to GitHub and search for "Common Lisp".
2015-06-26T03:49:38Z wldcordeiro: williamyao: Noted. I'll have to checkout that book.
2015-06-26T03:50:07Z williamyao: Do it right now! It's free online. http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2015-06-26T03:50:53Z nalik891: there's a project going on between brazilian students to dev an computer-voice-guided-IDE-support to allow disabled people who program or want to, take advantage over their difficulties
2015-06-26T03:51:33Z nalik891: Oh, is that "dat old sexy book"!
2015-06-26T03:52:43Z nyef: "That dead sexy book"
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2015-06-26T03:53:40Z beach: phf: You might want to consult nyef about the parts of the CLIM II spec that don't make sense, so that you don't spend time trying to implement them.
2015-06-26T03:53:41Z nalik891: beach by using some voice api settled over a kind of interpreter to make the bridge between the ide options and the voice api
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2015-06-26T03:54:11Z nalik891: Sorry nyef thanks by correcting it for me
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2015-06-26T03:56:33Z nalik891: beach: (i'm not on it, just curious and eager to help)
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2015-06-26T03:58:16Z beach: nalik891: I am a bit lost now.  So you want examples of Common Lisp code so that you might help the Brazilian students?
2015-06-26T03:59:15Z nalik891: yeah, check out the extension of the language usabilities
2015-06-26T03:59:22Z nalik891: and scope
2015-06-26T03:59:54Z beach: Asking for Common Lisp on GitHub gives almost 3000 repositories.
2015-06-26T04:00:02Z nalik891: To translate to some pros and cons after
2015-06-26T04:00:09Z beach: I think it is better you ask more specific questions.
2015-06-26T04:00:26Z nalik891: hm not knew about it
2015-06-26T04:01:34Z beach: nalik891: I like this quote from Kent Pitman:
2015-06-26T04:01:34Z beach: “Please don't assume Lisp is only useful for Animation and Graphics, AI, Bioinformatics, B2B and Ecommerce, Data Mining, EDA/Semiconductor applications, Expert Systems, Finance, Intelligent Agents, Knowledge Management, Mechanical CAD, Modeling and Simulation, Natural Language, Optimization, Research, Risk Analysis, Scheduling, Telecom, and Web Authoring just because these are the only things they happened to list.”
2015-06-26T04:02:21Z nalik891: beach: so, there's a project and an goal, but without a defined set of actions to approach that goal, the guys are looking towards all possible measures
2015-06-26T04:03:09Z beach: nalik891: So are you trying to advice them about what language to use?
2015-06-26T04:03:17Z beach: If so, what are their other options?
2015-06-26T04:04:14Z beach: nalik891: Basically, you can use Common Lisp for anything that you can use other languages for.  In the worst case, you can use a foreign-function interface to access libraries in other languages.
2015-06-26T04:04:33Z Petit_Dejeuner: #'ensure-gethash <- This sure is nice. I wish setf just worked with gethash's default value though.
2015-06-26T04:05:04Z nalik891: yes. They've looked to c++ and erlang using some foreign linking language
2015-06-26T04:05:49Z edgar-rft: nalik891: do you know emacsspeak ? http://emacspeak.sourceforge.net/ It's mainly written in Emacs Lisp (not Common Lisp), but it gives Emacs the ability to talk to blind programmers.
2015-06-26T04:06:01Z nalik891: beach: thanks a lot. As a little i know about lisp fire power, it should work 10/10
2015-06-26T04:06:20Z beach: nalik891: In my opinion, you should have very very good reasons to choose C++.  Most reasons people give are not very convincing.
2015-06-26T04:06:20Z nalik891: no edgar-rft
2015-06-26T04:06:55Z nalik891: yeah they don't have pointed any reasonable reasons too, beach
2015-06-26T04:07:33Z nalik891: edgar-rft how a great project! Thanks in advance by showing this
2015-06-26T04:09:00Z nalik891: i cant perform deep searchs today due to my broken laptop and short time... gonna give a feedback for the team. Thanks edgar-rft, beach
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2015-06-26T04:21:45Z pjb: mmercer: it wasn't a void advice to go to ##lisp to get your answer.
2015-06-26T04:22:10Z mmercer: pjb I asked in ##lisp first
2015-06-26T04:22:36Z pjb: wldcordeiro: given that sicp uses mit scheme, it would be better to ask on #scheme.
2015-06-26T04:27:59Z pjb: nalik891: have a look at http://cliki.net/Application
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2015-06-26T04:32:40Z nalik891: pjb: thank you, just what i was searching for!
2015-06-26T04:34:18Z nalik891: after this hint, gonna type "common lisp" on github. Thanks and good night to all!
2015-06-26T04:34:44Z beach: 'night nalik891.
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2015-06-26T04:38:29Z drmeister: Hi beach.
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2015-06-26T04:40:44Z beach: Hello drmeister.
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2015-06-26T04:41:50Z aeth: oh cool... https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/mcclim/mcclim/tree/master/Backends/OpenGL
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2015-06-26T04:41:57Z aeth: too bad it's from the early 2000s
2015-06-26T04:43:43Z beach: aeth: moore33 has encouraged me to write an OpenGL backend for CLIMatis.
2015-06-26T04:43:59Z beach: But I don't know enough about OpenGL yet.
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2015-06-26T04:44:24Z aeth: the main thing you need to keep in mind is that the new way of doing things is very shader-based
2015-06-26T04:44:45Z beach: more33 know all about it.  I wouldn't do anything without his advice.
2015-06-26T04:44:50Z drmeister: I'm getting ready to make Cleavir the default compiler in Clasp and do a release.
2015-06-26T04:44:59Z beach: Excellent!
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2015-06-26T04:45:27Z drmeister: I've removed ASDF from the build process that users will see.
2015-06-26T04:45:59Z drmeister: My plan is (1) I'll pull your latest version of Sicl into clasp's git submodule for sicl.
2015-06-26T04:46:06Z beach: aeth: I suggest you follow the advice of nyef and start working on some CLIM-like stuff.
2015-06-26T04:46:56Z beach: drmeister: OK.  While SICL changes frequently, it shouldn't influence the part that Claps uses.
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2015-06-26T04:47:01Z drmeister: (2) I'll run an ASDF groveler that builds a list of all cleavir and clasp source files required by the :clasp-cleavir ASDF system and all of it's dependencies
2015-06-26T04:47:23Z drmeister: (3) I'll push clasp
2015-06-26T04:47:44Z drmeister: (4) Users will clone clasp and run "make"
2015-06-26T04:48:12Z drmeister: (5) make should update their copy of Sicl to the one I pulled and not your latest one (if I understand git submodules)
2015-06-26T04:48:59Z beach: That is a very good idea.
2015-06-26T04:49:00Z drmeister: I don't want anyone bugging you that Sicl is broken in Clasp - or anything like that.
2015-06-26T04:49:08Z beach: I fully agree.
2015-06-26T04:50:22Z drmeister: This way no one has to mess around with ASDF configuration to build Clasp.  I'll do that on my end
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2015-06-26T04:51:37Z drmeister: Ok, good.
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2015-06-26T04:54:02Z nyef: drmeister: About how long does it take to set up and build the system, as a user?
2015-06-26T04:54:58Z nyef realizes that he's very probably about to do something ill-advised with under-powered hardware.
2015-06-26T04:55:19Z drmeister: nyef: The system that I will ship next will include Cleavir - I estimate right now about 10-12 hours on a 2 year old Macbook pro.
2015-06-26T04:55:46Z nyef: Hrm.
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2015-06-26T04:55:58Z drmeister: But I'm going to try this compiler macro idea to try and speed it up.
2015-06-26T04:56:14Z drmeister: Yeah.
2015-06-26T04:56:51Z drmeister: But it works.   It just finished building cclasp
2015-06-26T04:56:58Z nyef: Drat, my MBP is four years old... And is the most powerful machine I have available, and not the machine that I was considering using.
2015-06-26T04:57:40Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/DXDJsj2Z/
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2015-06-26T04:58:41Z nyef: That's the first-stage system?
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2015-06-26T05:03:54Z drmeister: No, that's everything.
2015-06-26T05:04:04Z drmeister: That's cclasp - the default compiler is Cleavir and it's doing inlining.
2015-06-26T05:04:17Z beach: drmeister: So is the plan to add compiler macros to bclasp in order to speed up the build process?
2015-06-26T05:04:25Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/aaVjtH6w/
2015-06-26T05:04:59Z drmeister: Line 32-35 is the inlined code for CL:CONSP
2015-06-26T05:06:43Z drmeister: The DEFUN was compiled with Cleavir, it generates two additional LLVM functions for that one FOO-CONSP function, one of them is the function that sets up the closure for FOO-CONSP.  I have to think about what the other one is.  It's probably the top level form (DEFUN ...)
2015-06-26T05:07:55Z drmeister: When Cleavir compiles the top level form I accumulate the LLVM-IR definition of each function and associate it with the Common Lisp function object that is fbound to 'FOO-CONSP.  That way I can recover it with DISASSEMBLE.
2015-06-26T05:10:37Z drmeister: beach: Yes - and to use the same compiler macros in cleavir
2015-06-26T05:11:09Z drmeister: I just added compiler macros to bclasp.
2015-06-26T05:11:46Z drmeister: I can now write compiler macros for + - < <= etc and convert them from functions that CONS &REST arguments into sequences of nested binary functions (or something equivalent).
2015-06-26T05:12:08Z drmeister: When Cleavir starts up the binary functions will become inlined.
2015-06-26T05:12:25Z drmeister: Reuse, Reduce, Recycle.
2015-06-26T05:12:37Z nyef: ... Retire for the evening?
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2015-06-26T05:13:16Z drmeister: Good point.  We are in the same time zone and should probably both head to bed.
2015-06-26T05:14:20Z drmeister: Phew, I'm just releaved that I won't have to explain to stassats why it crashed again.
2015-06-26T05:14:28Z drmeister: relieved (sheesh)
2015-06-26T05:14:46Z beach: Because it didn't crash?
2015-06-26T05:15:38Z drmeister: Right - that's the best kind of reason
2015-06-26T05:15:50Z beach: Absolutely.
2015-06-26T05:16:07Z drmeister feels his ability to hold coherent conversations slipping away
2015-06-26T05:16:17Z drmeister: I better get to bed.
2015-06-26T05:16:49Z nyef: It may not have crashed, but I'm about to. Less than seven hours until I need to be coherent enough to work again. G'night. /-:
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2015-06-26T05:17:01Z drmeister: Good night nyef.
2015-06-26T05:17:07Z drmeister: Good night all
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2015-06-26T05:22:52Z beach: Good night drmeister.
2015-06-26T05:23:17Z beach: ... and nyef.
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2015-06-26T05:28:20Z devon: I see QL:system-apropos "kafka" gets no hits.  Is there an Apache Kafka in CL?
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2015-06-26T05:48:05Z kami: Good morning.
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2015-06-26T05:48:25Z beach: Hello kami.
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2015-06-26T05:50:27Z akkad: kafka interface?
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2015-06-26T06:17:01Z kami: Does anybody know a jpeg lib which supports creating progressive jpegs?
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2015-06-26T06:19:22Z jackdaniel: o/
2015-06-26T06:19:46Z kami: hi jackdaniel
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2015-06-26T06:48:07Z loke: devon: I use RabbitMQ
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2015-06-26T09:58:52Z vydd: Shinmera: hi! I successfully installed commonqt yesterday, thanks! If you need to test on another osx box in future, ping me here
2015-06-26T09:59:36Z Shinmera: vydd: So qt-libs just "worked"?
2015-06-26T10:01:10Z vydd: Shinmera: yeah, well. I think I broke something in the process before contacting you, so I deleted the cache first and set up my paths in .sbclrc first.
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2015-06-26T10:01:56Z vydd: I need a coffee.
2015-06-26T10:02:59Z vydd: but yes, cloned the repo, ran (ql:quickload :qt-libs) and everything is fine now. I did install needed qt stuff beforehand, via macports
2015-06-26T10:03:13Z Shinmera: Ok. And (qt:make-qapplication) returns fine?
2015-06-26T10:03:30Z smokeink: Shinmera: qtools doesn't work on xp 64bit http://stackoverflow.com/questions/17842981/the-procedure-entry-point-gettickcount64-could-not-be-located-in-the-dynamic-l
2015-06-26T10:03:40Z Shinmera: smokeink: Yeah, I saw the memo, thanks.
2015-06-26T10:03:57Z Shinmera: smokeink: That's a problem inherent to the dlls though, and I'm not going to fix it.
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2015-06-26T10:04:28Z Shinmera: XP is EOL, so I won't support it.
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2015-06-26T10:05:09Z vydd: Shinmera: yes
2015-06-26T10:05:15Z Shinmera: vydd: Fantastic!
2015-06-26T10:05:47Z Shinmera: vydd: Just so I know and can possibly accommodate it automatically already: Where are qmake and the Qt library files located on your system?
2015-06-26T10:07:46Z smokeink: Shinmera: ok
2015-06-26T10:08:10Z vydd: Shinmera: /opt/local/bin/ and /opt/local/lib/
2015-06-26T10:09:31Z Shinmera: vydd: What does (qt-lib-generator::dylib-dependencies (first (uiop:directory-files qt-libs:*standalone-libs-dir*))) report?
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2015-06-26T10:10:42Z loz: how do i generate recursive series of loops?
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2015-06-26T10:11:21Z pjb: with a macro?
2015-06-26T10:11:44Z loz: ye, my attempt is http://paste.lisp.org/display/150574
2015-06-26T10:12:10Z pjb: sounds good, any problem?
2015-06-26T10:12:15Z loz: but internal gen-loop takes (cdr lists) as argument
2015-06-26T10:12:20Z loz: and fails
2015-06-26T10:12:39Z loz: at least this is what i think trace says :)
2015-06-26T10:12:47Z smokeink: Shinmera: i'd like to recompile the dlls myself then, do you have some quickguide/quick steps? exept QT, what else must i manually build with visual studio?
2015-06-26T10:13:08Z Shinmera: smokegenerator, smokeqt, and libcommonqt.
2015-06-26T10:13:34Z Shinmera: I'll write a blog article later about it since it requires a bit of explaining.
2015-06-26T10:13:37Z pjb: loz: Oh, I see, you defined a macro named gen-something.
2015-06-26T10:13:48Z pjb: loz: gen- or generate- something shall be a function.
2015-06-26T10:13:53Z pjb: Then you call this function from the macro.
2015-06-26T10:13:54Z vydd: Shinmera: http://pastebin.com/KXm8U2ff
2015-06-26T10:14:16Z smokeink: Shinmera: ok, cool :)  . visual studio 2012 express is ok ?
2015-06-26T10:14:17Z loz: pjb: em, shall i rename it?)
2015-06-26T10:14:21Z pjb: (defmacro rloops (lists vars &body body) (gen-loops list vars body))
2015-06-26T10:14:40Z pjb: loz: it's not the name, it's the recursive call.
2015-06-26T10:14:49Z Shinmera: smokeink: I don't know, but hopefully.
2015-06-26T10:14:53Z loz: so, recursive macros have problems?
2015-06-26T10:15:06Z pjb: No, just the one you wrote.
2015-06-26T10:15:14Z pjb: You wrote it as a function. So define it as a function.
2015-06-26T10:15:18Z Shinmera: vydd: Hrm. That library will give you troubles when you distribute it.
2015-06-26T10:15:31Z loz: pjb: how would one write a recursive macro then?
2015-06-26T10:15:44Z pjb: Now, the problem would be that you use (gen-loops (cdr list) … ) instead of `(gen-loops ,(cdr list) …) if it was  macro.
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2015-06-26T10:16:24Z Shinmera: vydd: It looks like you already built and installed smokegen/smokeqt yourself at some point.
2015-06-26T10:16:49Z pjb: remember: a macro receives its arguments unevaluated, so (gen-loops (cdr list) (cdr args) body) tries to generate a loop (loop for cdr in cdr do (prog (loop for args in list do (progn body)))) literally.
2015-06-26T10:17:12Z loz: yep
2015-06-26T10:17:20Z vydd: Shinmera: could be. maybe I could uninstall that from ports and then run a clean qt-libs install?
2015-06-26T10:17:30Z Shinmera: vydd: Yes, that would be a good idea.
2015-06-26T10:17:50Z Shinmera: vydd: As you can see from the output, it uses absolute paths to find the library. That won't work on any system that isn't set up exactly like yours.
2015-06-26T10:18:04Z pjb: A recursive macro can be used, as long as you need the macro expansion in the macro body.  But if you need the macro expansion in the result of the macro, it won't work. You must generate a macro call with `(ge-loop ,(…) ,(…) ,…) to be expanded later, or you must use a recursive function instead.
2015-06-26T10:18:11Z Shinmera: vydd: qt-libs fixes that problem by changing the libraries to use relative paths to its load directory where it can, making them distributable.
2015-06-26T10:18:32Z pjb: loz: take the rule of thumb that gen- or generate- are functions generating code, and name your macro rloop or mloop or something.
2015-06-26T10:19:27Z Shinmera: vydd: I'll be off for lunch, so if anything happens I'll get back to you later.
2015-06-26T10:19:57Z vydd: Shinmera: right, thanks again. I'm going to try that later today, need to do some other stuff now. see you
2015-06-26T10:20:16Z pjb: loz: check another example: https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/emacs/blob/master/pjb-emacs.el#L1745
2015-06-26T10:22:40Z loz: pjb: thanks a lot! did mine with a function, and it damn works
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2015-06-26T12:41:37Z Baggers: when using paredit Ι often want to write something like #s() or λ() but paredit 'corrects' it to #s () and λ () how do I tell paredit to not enforce the rule in these cases?
2015-06-26T12:42:36Z oleo: Baggers Baggers.....
2015-06-26T12:42:44Z oleo: look at your sentence....
2015-06-26T12:42:54Z oleo: you're funny....
2015-06-26T12:42:56Z oleo: lol
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2015-06-26T12:43:52Z oleo: or/and
2015-06-26T12:45:15Z oleo: anyways, i don't use paredit....
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2015-06-26T12:45:49Z Baggers: s/how/respectivly. How/
2015-06-26T12:46:13Z Xach: Baggers: same with #p"".
2015-06-26T12:46:41Z Xach: Baggers: if you find the answer, please share...the last time I asked about it, the answer I remember was "paredit was really developed for scheme, not cl, so it doesn't know about those kinds of syntax"
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2015-06-26T12:50:50Z Baggers: Xach: damn. Thanks for the info though, and if/when I fix it i'll defintely share
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2015-06-26T12:55:59Z Xach: Baggers: thanks. i've used paredit for years but just grumbled to myself and deleted the space between #p and ""
2015-06-26T12:56:27Z Shinmera: So many grumbles.
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2015-06-26T12:58:12Z ggole: You can probably get rid of that with parens-require-spaces, but turning that off might not be what you want in other cases.
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2015-06-26T12:58:51Z Shinmera: I suspect one would have to modify its algorithm to backstep two characters and check for a # sign.
2015-06-26T12:58:53Z Baggers: Xach: ok there is a list of predicates what control whether spaces are injected, this shouldnt be too bad actually
2015-06-26T12:59:07Z Baggers: 'paredit-space-for-delimiter-predicates
2015-06-26T12:59:29Z Xach: ooh
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2015-06-26T13:04:47Z kami: I need to resize/crop some images (gif, png, jpg) and convert them to progressive jpeg. What CL libs do you recommend?
2015-06-26T13:08:11Z Xach: kami: When I want to do that, I use the command-line imagemagick tools.
2015-06-26T13:08:24Z Xach: kami: sometimes i construct the command-line with lisp, but not always
2015-06-26T13:09:54Z kami: Xach: do you use your implementation's 'run-program' (or alike), or a portability layer?
2015-06-26T13:10:04Z Xach: kami: i use sb-ext:run-program
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2015-06-26T13:10:19Z Xach: My image conversion stuff does not need to be portable
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2015-06-26T13:10:49Z Shinmera: uiop:run-program is pretty much the same and portable
2015-06-26T13:11:27Z kami: Shinmera: I just tried uiop:run-program, but the call doesn't return and CPU usage goes up to 200%
2015-06-26T13:11:43Z Xach: kami: you might not be using it correctly.
2015-06-26T13:11:59Z Shinmera: kami: I'm no wizard, so I can't tell you what's going on in your machine.
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2015-06-26T13:15:23Z kami reads again
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2015-06-26T13:16:11Z loz: guys, serous question
2015-06-26T13:16:38Z loz: where does cffi search for shared libraries on linux?
2015-06-26T13:17:04Z Shinmera: Wherever the OS searches + cffi:*foreign-library-paths*
2015-06-26T13:17:32Z Shinmera: err, *foreign-library-directories*
2015-06-26T13:17:41Z loz: hm, let my try this last one
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2015-06-26T13:27:59Z Baggers: Xach: https://gist.github.com/cbaggers/2eac188a69a649124412
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2015-06-26T13:30:53Z nyef: Baggers: Thank you! I've got a few places where that should come in handy if it works. (-:
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2015-06-26T13:35:42Z Baggers: nyef: no probs, its pretty hacked together but is helping my sanity so it'll do for now :D
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2015-06-26T13:36:51Z nyef: Sometimes any little bit helps.
2015-06-26T13:36:53Z Shinmera: Baggers: Neat, thanks.
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2015-06-26T13:44:39Z loz: ls  ~/.nix-profile/lib | grep sqlite
2015-06-26T13:44:39Z loz: libsqlite3.so
2015-06-26T13:44:39Z loz: libsqlite3.so.0.8.6
2015-06-26T13:44:39Z loz: >Couldn't load foreign libraries "libsqlite3", "sqlite3". (searched *FOREIGN-LIBRARY-SEARCH-PATHS*: NIL)
2015-06-26T13:44:50Z loz: what's wrong with this cffi
2015-06-26T13:45:38Z jackdaniel: loz: try running lisp like LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/home/loz/.nix-profile/lib lisp
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2015-06-26T13:46:33Z loz: jackdaniel: yay, lol
2015-06-26T13:46:39Z loz: jackdaniel: thank you)
2015-06-26T13:46:49Z jackdaniel: :)
2015-06-26T13:46:58Z loz is so stupid
2015-06-26T13:47:14Z jackdaniel builds ecl on openbsd
2015-06-26T13:47:18Z jackdaniel: to track threading bug
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2015-06-26T13:57:15Z Shinmera: Baggers: Improved it a bit. https://github.com/Shinmera/.emacs/blob/master/shinmera-lisp.el#L97
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2015-06-26T14:02:16Z ferada: Shinmera: slime-eval would block if cl is busy, no?
2015-06-26T14:02:54Z Shinmera: ferada: I don't know! Is there a non-blocking version if it does?
2015-06-26T14:03:30Z ferada: i just tried it with (read) and it did
2015-06-26T14:03:45Z ferada: no idea about non-blocking
2015-06-26T14:04:21Z Shinmera: A more complicated version would probably also try to cache the result or something.
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2015-06-26T14:10:36Z Shinmera: There's a slime-eval-async, but I don't know if that doesn't block the inferior-lisp, and it's also not applicable in this situation.
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2015-06-26T15:03:08Z Shinmera: ferada: I improved it a bit, it shouldn't block anymore at the cost of having a first-time miss.
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2015-06-26T15:21:54Z ferada: Shinmera: yeah i had to enable lexical binding, but otherwise looks good so far, thanks
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2015-06-26T15:27:34Z Shinmera: I added that to the file up top.
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2015-06-26T15:27:52Z Shinmera: It tripped me up as well at first though. I wonder if they're ever going to make it default.
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2015-06-26T17:03:55Z Bike: does lispbuilder sdl not have timers?
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2015-06-26T17:07:42Z Bike: i guess that's with-timestep, except it's kind of coarser grained
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2015-06-26T17:15:37Z oGMo: Bike: you probably want to implement your own time handling, at least for a game
2015-06-26T17:16:32Z Bike: Meaning what?
2015-06-26T17:16:46Z Bike: I mean, i'm translating some c code where i just used sdl timers.
2015-06-26T17:17:03Z oGMo: ah
2015-06-26T17:17:36Z Bike: the c code might not have been the best way to do it, of course, i'm new to SDL
2015-06-26T17:18:06Z Bike: so i figured i could just call sdl:add-timer or something, but lispbuilder doesn't seem to expose it
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2015-06-26T17:18:50Z oGMo: cl-sdl2 does, if you want to use that ;)
2015-06-26T17:19:32Z oGMo: but i haven't tried those calls myself, i track time per frame and handle it myself
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2015-06-26T18:21:55Z Shinmera: Colleen: do notify smokeink Here you go, and good luck. https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/323
2015-06-26T18:21:55Z Colleen: Shinmera: Remembered. I will remind smokeink when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-06-26T18:54:10Z jasom: Any suggestion for generating a histogram from lisp?  I just need something quick and easy, not pretty
2015-06-26T18:54:36Z vydd: Shinmera: I'm trying to install qt-libs without macports' smokegen and smokeqt. I'm not sure if I reset everything correctly or I uninstalled too much stuff, but now I'm getting "Library not loaded: libcppparser.dylib" somewhere in the middle of installation.
2015-06-26T18:55:31Z Shinmera: vydd: That library should be build as part of smokegen.
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2015-06-26T18:55:50Z Shinmera: vydd: Try: (qt-lib-generator:clean-system :smokegen) (qt-lib-generator:install-system :smokegen :source-type :sources)
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2015-06-26T18:56:11Z Bike: jasom: you mean from a given image format? opticl with a dumb loop should work okay
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2015-06-26T18:56:59Z akkad: jasom: Racket has a great charting lib
2015-06-26T18:57:16Z jasom: Bike: I mean a graph of frequencies of each value from a list of values
2015-06-26T18:57:24Z vydd: Shinmera: I guess I broke something, because "Symbol "CLEAN-SYSTEM" not found in the QT-LIB-GENERATOR package.". This reminds me of my days with gentoo :)
2015-06-26T18:57:29Z jasom: akkad: lisp, not scheme.
2015-06-26T18:57:40Z Bike: oh, an actual picture rather than just the numbers
2015-06-26T18:57:41Z Shinmera: vydd: You need to pull the qt-libs system.
2015-06-26T18:58:13Z jasom: Bike: i'd be okay with ascii-art even; maybe at this point I'll roll one myself with format
2015-06-26T18:58:15Z Shinmera: vydd: I'm not sure when I added that, but I think I only exported it today or yesterday.
2015-06-26T18:58:25Z Bike: i'd just throw it at gnuplot, i think
2015-06-26T18:58:43Z akkad: or cffi to ploticus lib
2015-06-26T18:58:56Z Shinmera has Qt plotting additions on his todo.
2015-06-26T18:59:10Z Bike: ascii art should be pretty easy. i mean, computing the histogram is easy, and a bunch of lines isn't really involved ascii
2015-06-26T18:59:19Z jasom: right
2015-06-26T18:59:26Z jasom: probably faster than learning gnuplot
2015-06-26T18:59:38Z vydd: Shinmera: pull? like clone from https://github.com/Shinmera/qt-libs ?
2015-06-26T18:59:42Z Bike: maybe.
2015-06-26T18:59:48Z akkad: http://docs.racket-lang.org/plot/pict_3.png renders in emacs
2015-06-26T18:59:51Z Bike: gnuplot's another dependency, anyway
2015-06-26T18:59:57Z Shinmera: vydd: Yes.
2015-06-26T19:00:03Z vydd: ok
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2015-06-26T19:06:00Z jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/+386Z <-- good enough for me for now
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2015-06-26T19:06:53Z jasom: my data was already sorted, I suppose I could use count and round to do it slightly better
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2015-06-26T19:12:50Z Grue`: jasom: I once used Xach's skippy library to make animated histograms
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2015-06-26T19:13:22Z Grue`: it's pretty easy cause it's just drawing rectangles...
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2015-06-26T19:30:41Z pjb: Shinmera: it's more complex, the standard dispatching reader macro takes an optional integer argument! #2A(()())
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2015-06-26T19:32:46Z Shinmera: Yes, and in the general case you need context-aware backtracking. I'm not going to bother doing that though.
2015-06-26T19:33:18Z pjb: And for λ, you want it configurable.
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2015-06-26T19:59:58Z vydd: Shinmera: Got interrupted. Seems that I installed it correctly this time, dylib deps returns @loader_path/... instead of /opt/local/lib/... for smokegen and smokeqt.
2015-06-26T20:00:07Z Shinmera: vydd: Good!
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2015-06-26T20:02:24Z Shinmera: Now all I need is some more data points for Windows systems and I can call it a v1.1.0 successfully released.
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2015-06-26T20:06:26Z pjb: Baggers: xach: nief: This one deals with #2A and is more customizable: http://paste.lisp.org/+3870
2015-06-26T20:06:52Z pjb: Shinmera: ^
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2015-06-26T20:10:48Z vydd: Shinmera: Nice! I think it might be a good idea to include some info about PATH setup, at least a hint in readme.
2015-06-26T20:10:59Z pjb: jasom:   com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.histogram
2015-06-26T20:11:07Z Shinmera: vydd: It should automatically include /opt/local/bin on OS X now.
2015-06-26T20:11:19Z Shinmera: vydd: but yes, the docs have yet to be completed.
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2015-06-26T20:12:48Z dim: Shinmera: qt-libs progress, want more testing?
2015-06-26T20:13:05Z aeth: Does the LLGPL add anything over the LGPL? I'm still confused as to if it's useful.
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2015-06-26T20:13:10Z pjb: Shinmera: backward-sexp is all you need. Of course, you can break it with reader macros, but there it should be ok.
2015-06-26T20:13:12Z Shinmera: dim: Sure, can't hurt. Pull it, and try to laod it.
2015-06-26T20:13:19Z vydd: Shinmera: oh, great! I could test on windows 7 64bit in a day or two if you want.
2015-06-26T20:13:27Z Shinmera: vydd: The more the merrier.
2015-06-26T20:13:34Z Shinmera: *load
2015-06-26T20:13:43Z pjb: aeth: LGPL is for libraries usually delivered as binary.  LLGPL is for libraries usually delivered as lisp sources, IIRC.
2015-06-26T20:14:03Z dim: Shinmera: I'm somehow 47 patches behind
2015-06-26T20:14:13Z Shinmera: dim: A lot has happened, yes.
2015-06-26T20:14:30Z dim: (ql:quickload "qt-libs") was successful
2015-06-26T20:14:34Z dim: what's next already? ;-)
2015-06-26T20:14:43Z Shinmera: (qt:make-qapplication)
2015-06-26T20:14:56Z dim: Unable to load foreign library (LIBSMOKEQTCORE).
2015-06-26T20:15:05Z dim: dlopen(/Users/dim/quicklisp/local-projects/qt-libs/standalone/libsmokeqtcore.dylib, 10): Library not loaded: libsmokebase.3.dylib
2015-06-26T20:15:10Z Shinmera: Right.
2015-06-26T20:15:28Z dim: smells like a missing `make clean` or equivalent
2015-06-26T20:15:35Z dim: the qt-libs loading was very fast
2015-06-26T20:15:37Z Shinmera: Go into the qt-libs folder, delete the standalone folder, restart your lisp, and try again.
2015-06-26T20:15:42Z dim: didn't resort to C++ compilers
2015-06-26T20:15:58Z Shinmera: Actually wait
2015-06-26T20:16:05Z dim: yeah?
2015-06-26T20:16:08Z Shinmera: instead you should be able to do (qt-libs:ensure-standalone-libs :force T)
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2015-06-26T20:17:02Z dim: keyword argument not a symbol: (:SOURCE-TYPE :SOURCES).
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2015-06-26T20:17:23Z aeth: pjb: Is it something actual lawyers wrote?
2015-06-26T20:17:23Z Shinmera: Argh
2015-06-26T20:17:26Z Shinmera: that's an ASDF bug
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2015-06-26T20:17:44Z Shinmera: dim: I guess you have to go the delete folder route anyway.
2015-06-26T20:17:53Z dim: yeah, C++ calls are happening now
2015-06-26T20:17:55Z Shinmera: So, delete, restart image, load again.
2015-06-26T20:18:09Z dim: Unhandled memory fault at #x224. [Condition of type SB-SYS:MEMORY-FAULT-ERROR]
2015-06-26T20:18:19Z pjb: aeth: the GPL and LGPL were written by lawyers yes.  I don't know about the LLGPL I guess not.
2015-06-26T20:18:24Z Shinmera: dim: That's for make-qapplication?
2015-06-26T20:18:27Z aeth: The last thing I'd want is to write something LLGPL and have it be invalid because of the obscure license.
2015-06-26T20:18:27Z dim: yeah
2015-06-26T20:18:34Z Shinmera: Good, that means it's (mostly) working!
2015-06-26T20:18:49Z dim: aeth: then pick an MIT or WTFPL or ISC license
2015-06-26T20:18:56Z dim: hehe yeah feels like progress
2015-06-26T20:18:57Z aeth: Perhaps Apache would be better for libraries if LGPL really causes issues with Lisp.
2015-06-26T20:19:02Z p_l: Shinmera: not sure when, but I might be able to run some tests on Windows 10 64bit
2015-06-26T20:19:05Z pjb: aeth: I just use AGPL3
2015-06-26T20:19:10Z aeth: dim: Big corporations with real lawyers seem to prefer Apache
2015-06-26T20:19:13Z Shinmera: dim: The error is happening due to the main thread crap on OS X
2015-06-26T20:19:31Z dim: aeth: my favorite is WTFPL and I could envision using ISC in cases
2015-06-26T20:19:52Z dim: also anything I do PostgreSQL related will have The PostgreSQL License
2015-06-26T20:20:05Z Shinmera: p_l: Ooh, prestigious! Let me know if you discover anything!
2015-06-26T20:20:06Z dim: Shinmera: anything we can do about it?
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2015-06-26T20:20:15Z Shinmera: dim: It's a solved problem, but hold on.
2015-06-26T20:20:17Z aeth: pjb: For application code I will use (A)GPL for appropriate, this is for libraries. GPL library = no one will use it.
2015-06-26T20:20:31Z pjb: I would use GPL libraries.
2015-06-26T20:20:45Z aeth: s/for appropriate/where appropriate/
2015-06-26T20:21:03Z Baggers: pjb: re:paredit Nice!
2015-06-26T20:21:12Z p_l: Shinmera: heh - I use win10 in production, having qtools tested on it would be nice
2015-06-26T20:21:15Z Shinmera: dim: Actually, wait. It shouldn't error when just issueing qt:make-qapplication. At least it doesn't on my system.
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2015-06-26T20:22:51Z Shinmera: dim: Just so we're sure: Can you try the loading and make-qapplication from a terminal sbcl?
2015-06-26T20:24:37Z shka_: "In particular, they may be implemented using structure classes" from clim specs
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2015-06-26T20:24:46Z shka_: what are structure classes?
2015-06-26T20:24:55Z Bike: shka_: as from defstruct.
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2015-06-26T20:25:36Z shka_: oh, ok
2015-06-26T20:25:57Z Bike: what they mean is probably just that clos fanciness isn't guaranteed to work with these things, whatever they are.
2015-06-26T20:25:58Z shka_: weird way of saying that
2015-06-26T20:26:55Z pjb: Well, there's a level of indirection, because structure classes can be normal CLOS classes, depending on the implementation.
2015-06-26T20:28:36Z aeth: pjb: I think the license depends on what it is. If it's trivial or a reimplementation of something that already exists under a permissive license, the GPL isn't useful.
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2015-06-26T20:29:20Z aeth: If it's something that's hard to do then, yes, the GPL might make sense.
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2015-06-26T20:32:34Z BWV988: "Wendy, I'm Home" :-)
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2015-06-26T20:34:04Z dim: Shinmera: CORRUPTION WARNING in SBCL pid 7303(tid 140735240323856): Memory fault at 0x224 (pc=0x7fff967ccc09, sp=0x51ff390) The integrity of this image is possibly compromised. Continuing with fingers crossed.
2015-06-26T20:34:37Z dim: oh and before that, STYLE-WARNING: Undefined alien: "sw_smoke" repeated lots of time with a bunch of different symbols/aliens
2015-06-26T20:34:59Z Shinmera: dim: Yeah the style warnings are a normal consequence of loading the libs.
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2015-06-26T20:35:31Z Shinmera: dim: Ok, let's try this instead then: Can you try cloning https://github.com/Shinmera/trivial-main-thread and https://github.com/Shinmera/simple-tasks
2015-06-26T20:35:32Z dim: I have the problem with pgloader too but I don't know about those being "normal" unfortunately, if you have a one-liner explanation that'd be great
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2015-06-26T20:36:32Z Shinmera: dim: Load qt-libs, then trivial-main-thread. Finally do (tmt:call-in-main-thread #'qt:make-qapplication :blocking T)
2015-06-26T20:37:19Z dim: in a terminal, or in my slime session?
2015-06-26T20:37:25Z Shinmera: Either way is fine.
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2015-06-26T20:38:50Z dim: Symbol "CAPTURE-ENVIRONMENT" not found in the DISSECT package.
2015-06-26T20:39:07Z Shinmera: I forget how many libraries I change in the course of a month.
2015-06-26T20:39:15Z dim: COMPILE-FILE-ERROR while compiling #<CL-SOURCE-FILE "simple-tasks" "task"> Line: 40, Column: 85, File-Position: 1502
2015-06-26T20:39:29Z Shinmera: Yeah, I guess you'll have to clone dissect as well. Sorry!
2015-06-26T20:39:48Z dim: "http://beta.quicklisp.org/archive/dissect/2015-06-08/dissect-20150608-git.tgz" isn't recent enough then?
2015-06-26T20:39:55Z Shinmera: Nope.
2015-06-26T20:40:17Z dim: ok loading done
2015-06-26T20:40:34Z dim: WARNING: Task #<SIMPLE-TASKS:BLOCKING-CALL-TASK :FUNC #<FUNCTION QT:MAKE-QAPPLICATION> :STATUS :ERRORED {1002EBD563}> errored. See the task's ERROR-ENVIRONMENT for more information.
2015-06-26T20:40:42Z Shinmera curses
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2015-06-26T20:41:05Z Shinmera: Ok, (dissect:present (simple-tasks:error-environment *)) should give you a backtrace. Probably another corruption.
2015-06-26T20:42:31Z dim: well it returned no value
2015-06-26T20:42:46Z dim: I can still try, but...
2015-06-26T20:42:55Z Shinmera: That ain't right.
2015-06-26T20:42:59Z Shinmera: Hold on.
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2015-06-26T20:43:55Z Shinmera: Bah, what am I doing.
2015-06-26T20:44:48Z Shinmera: Before I spam this channel further with more speculation I need to do some testing and thinking.
2015-06-26T20:45:10Z Shinmera: dim: I'll get back to you on this tomorrow, if that's alright with you
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2015-06-26T20:46:02Z dim: whenever you want, I use an irc proxy so if I don't answer to you it's just that I'm AFK
2015-06-26T20:46:15Z dim: thanks ;-)
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2015-06-26T20:46:34Z Shinmera: Thanks for bearing with me.
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2015-06-26T20:47:33Z dim: well as I said I'm interested into using qt-libs and there's no way I find the necessary time to make it happen, even if I had the skills to make it happen; so I'm happy to give you enough information/feedback so that you work on those parts ;-)
2015-06-26T20:47:56Z dim: either I can use Qt from CL or I guess I will have to try racket
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2015-06-26T20:48:19Z dim: racket looks quite nice, learning it just because I couldn't do graphics in CL would feel stupid
2015-06-26T20:48:40Z Shinmera: We wouldn't want a lamb to be led astray like that now, would we
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2015-06-26T20:49:09Z dim: sorry don't get it :(
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2015-06-26T20:49:36Z Shinmera: I was joking about anything but CL being analogous to the devil.
2015-06-26T20:49:47Z Baggers: dim: just means we want ya here :)
2015-06-26T20:49:49Z dim: hehe
2015-06-26T20:50:23Z dim: well it's not that bad, it's just I don't have the bandwidth to do half the ideas I want to, so learning another PL is out of the picture
2015-06-26T20:51:03Z Shinmera: Either way, if you can't do Qt with CL then I've failed. Fortunately I don't give up so easily.
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2015-06-26T20:51:48Z dim: well I guess qt-libs is promising is that its selling point is to make it easy for me, I could try the manual route too (commonqt directly)
2015-06-26T20:51:56Z dim: I just prefer to annoy you ;-)
2015-06-26T20:52:04Z Shinmera: I can respect that.
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2015-06-26T21:56:07Z nyef: Okay, WTF? I have two *different* objects that print as #<XLIB:WINDOW :0 B1>.
2015-06-26T21:56:51Z nyef: They are both obtained from the same display connection.
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2015-06-26T22:16:19Z oGMo: nyef: well unless it deduplicates or whatever, why not?
2015-06-26T22:16:54Z nyef: That's the thing: I was expecting it to deduplicate.
2015-06-26T22:17:41Z oGMo: it would be useful, but might not be terribly surprising it doesn't
2015-06-26T22:17:44Z nyef: Window objects have a plist, for example. They are referred to by id in events. They *have* to be deduplicated in most cases.
2015-06-26T22:18:25Z oGMo: well presumably you shouldn't change them directly
2015-06-26T22:18:57Z oGMo: but it does make keying off them between painful and useless
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2015-06-26T22:44:04Z mrottenkolber: Any Optima users around?
2015-06-26T22:44:30Z mrottenkolber: Why doesn't (LIST* foo bar baz) match '(1 2 . 3) ? :(
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2015-06-26T22:44:49Z mrottenkolber: (cons foo (cons bar baz)) is so clunky :(
2015-06-26T22:45:40Z Bike: you can probably define your own matcher for that (i have not used optima)
2015-06-26T22:45:46Z jasom: mrottenkolber: it should work
2015-06-26T22:46:43Z mrottenkolber: CL-USER> (optima:match '(1 2 . 3) ((list* a b c) (list a b c)))
2015-06-26T22:46:43Z mrottenkolber: NIL
2015-06-26T22:47:16Z mrottenkolber: I think it should too, after all that would match CL's LIST*
2015-06-26T22:47:26Z jasom: mrottenkolber: plus it's documented to work
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2015-06-26T22:47:31Z jasom: (list* a b c) => (cons a (cons b c))
2015-06-26T22:47:42Z mrottenkolber: Will file a bug
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2015-06-26T22:51:46Z mrottenkolber: https://github.com/m2ym/optima/issues/115
2015-06-26T22:52:04Z jasom: (optima:match '(1 2 . 3) ((optima::list* a b) (list a b))) => (1 (2 . 3))
2015-06-26T22:52:15Z jasom: so it just fails when the last item isn't a cons for some reason
2015-06-26T22:52:43Z jasom: oh, this is obvious if you look at the defpattern
2015-06-26T22:52:53Z mrottenkolber: it probably expects a proper list
2015-06-26T22:52:55Z jasom: the terminating test checks for (type list)
2015-06-26T22:53:06Z jasom: so the last item must always be a cons or nil
2015-06-26T22:53:06Z mrottenkolber: yeah
2015-06-26T22:53:21Z jasom: I can patch this up real quick
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2015-06-26T22:54:22Z mrottenkolber: Cool
2015-06-26T22:54:43Z mrottenkolber: I'll workaround until the fix is in quicklisp anyways though so no worries.
2015-06-26T22:54:49Z mrottenkolber: or hurries ;)
2015-06-26T22:54:54Z scymtym: jasom: mrottenkolber: check https://github.com/m2ym/optima/pull/97 for a related issue
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2015-06-26T22:56:23Z scymtym: in fact, i may have broken it at that point
2015-06-26T22:56:38Z jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/display/150611 <-- fixes both issues
2015-06-26T22:57:21Z scymtym: seems right
2015-06-26T22:57:24Z mrottenkolber: scymtym: haha, yeah youd did! :P
2015-06-26T22:57:37Z mrottenkolber: *shakes fist*
2015-06-26T22:59:05Z mrottenkolber: So that went well: complain on #lisp, find bug, get fix, find guy responsible, complain to him. My job is done here. ;)
2015-06-26T22:59:29Z scymtym: well done :)
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2015-06-26T23:00:45Z jasom: who's responsible?
2015-06-26T23:00:46Z mrottenkolber: jasom: be sure to include a regression test for this ;P
2015-06-26T23:01:05Z nyef: Okay, I think I know what's going on with the xlib-window thing. Windows with resources IDs in the application's range are interned, windows outside that range are not, because they can in theory disappear at any time.
2015-06-26T23:01:23Z jasom isn't Tomohiro Matsuyama
2015-06-26T23:01:27Z nyef: Except that /server/ resources, specifically root windows, should be interned as well, because they aren't going to disappear.
2015-06-26T23:01:40Z nyef heads back to dinner and guests.
2015-06-26T23:01:47Z mrottenkolber: jasom: scymtym introduced the bug in https://github.com/m2ym/optima/pull/97/files
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2015-06-26T23:01:53Z jasom: oh, haha
2015-06-26T23:01:59Z mrottenkolber: right
2015-06-26T23:02:14Z jasom: I missed that part
2015-06-26T23:03:16Z mrottenkolber: oh man I haven't been coding for fun since eternity, coding for cash is..... so serious. I think I missed this.
2015-06-26T23:03:29Z scymtym: to be fair, i also fixed one problem
2015-06-26T23:03:40Z jasom: scymtym: so you didn't increase the total number of bugs
2015-06-26T23:03:53Z mrottenkolber: scymtym: your karma is balanced :D
2015-06-26T23:04:30Z scymtym: a would even argue for slightly positive total since i added tests
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2015-06-26T23:04:51Z mrottenkolber: I agree!
2015-06-26T23:05:56Z jasom: Yes, fixing a bug and adding tests for that bug is net-positive so long as you don't introduce either: a) A more serious bug or b) more than one new bug
2015-06-26T23:07:52Z mrottenkolber: I might just have found my first good case to use GOTO
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2015-06-26T23:08:06Z mrottenkolber: GO actually
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2015-06-26T23:11:33Z mrottenkolber: Nah its not more readable than a RETURN-FROM.
2015-06-26T23:13:20Z jasom: go works well for state-machines
2015-06-26T23:16:17Z jasom: though (loop for next = #'initial-state then (funcall next)) works as well
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2015-06-26T23:17:53Z scymtym: jasom: will you create a pull request with your fix?
2015-06-26T23:18:33Z jasom: scymtym: if I remember, later tonight.
2015-06-26T23:18:46Z scymtym: great, thanks!
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2015-06-26T23:20:54Z drmeister: I'm implementing compiler macros in Clasp to speed up function calls that use &REST arguments.
2015-06-26T23:21:13Z drmeister: It's a bit new to me so I thought I'd post my first macro here and see what people think.
2015-06-26T23:21:38Z drmeister: I implemented CORE:COMPILER-MACROEXPAND that works like CL:MACROEXPAND
2015-06-26T23:21:55Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/RwvoYWnA/
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2015-06-26T23:22:25Z drmeister: (core:compiler-macroexpand '(t+ 1 2 3)) --> (CLEAVIR-PRIMOP:FIXNUM-+ 1 (CLEAVIR-PRIMOP:FIXNUM-+ 2 3))
2015-06-26T23:22:56Z mrottenkolber: drmeister: I missed your talk at ELS (was lying in the sun...) but just watched the talk at Google. Impressive!
2015-06-26T23:23:06Z drmeister: mrottenkolber: Thank you!
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2015-06-26T23:23:16Z drmeister: Were you at ELS?
2015-06-26T23:23:21Z mrottenkolber: Yup
2015-06-26T23:24:02Z drmeister: Lying in the sun in London is a rare and special thing.
2015-06-26T23:24:06Z mrottenkolber: I had a lightning talk on analyzing news articles and copying Erlang/OTP in CL
2015-06-26T23:24:10Z drmeister: Treasure those moments.
2015-06-26T23:24:39Z mrottenkolber: Yeah I don't regret it, but in retrospect I probably missed one of the most interesting talks.
2015-06-26T23:24:48Z mrottenkolber: s/had/gave
2015-06-26T23:25:12Z drmeister: Well, water under the (London) bridge.
2015-06-26T23:26:41Z mrottenkolber: drmeister: Minor nitpick, use = when comparing numbers.
2015-06-26T23:27:29Z drmeister: Thank you.  I'm still not clear on when to use one or the other.
2015-06-26T23:27:37Z mrottenkolber: number -> =
2015-06-26T23:28:01Z mrottenkolber: (EQL 0.0 -0.0) might be nil
2015-06-26T23:28:15Z jasom: drmeister: numbers are =, most other things are eql or equal
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2015-06-26T23:29:43Z jasom: hash-tables use equalp, vectors use equalp unless they are vectors of any subtype of character
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2015-06-26T23:30:23Z jasom kicks the spec for making equalp case-insensitive.
2015-06-26T23:30:30Z hitecnologys: Are there any significant reasons to have such many equality checks besides historical ones?
2015-06-26T23:30:33Z mrottenkolber: Also = will error if any of its argument is not a number, which is nice.
2015-06-26T23:30:52Z jasom: hitecnologys: eq and eql is largely historical, the rest do make sense, imo
2015-06-26T23:31:27Z abbe: Hi
2015-06-26T23:31:35Z mrottenkolber: hitecnologys: each serves its purpose, EQ for identity, EQL for representation, EQUAL for isomorphism, = for numbers, ...
2015-06-26T23:31:37Z hitecnologys: jasom: well, EQUALP and EQUAL do make sense, but using separate function for comparing numbers? What problem does this solve?
2015-06-26T23:31:39Z drmeister: I think Common Lisp equality is well thought out because it gives you a range of speed vs expressiveness.
2015-06-26T23:32:01Z mrottenkolber: hitecnologys: Only = is for numbers
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2015-06-26T23:32:28Z abbe: A small doubt, I think just a boolean answer, but I keep reading these articles about how folks use Common Lisp in production and systems, and mention about being able to attach to a running instance from Emacs/SLIME. I guess those applications starts a swank server during their initialization. right ?
2015-06-26T23:32:28Z drmeister: Javascript could use a few more equality checks like ==== and ===== and even ======
2015-06-26T23:32:31Z jasom: mrottenkolber: wrong, it's equal or equalp for isomorphism, depending on what you are comparing
2015-06-26T23:32:31Z hitecnologys: mrottenkolber: exactly. Why is there a need for separate function for comparing numbers?
2015-06-26T23:32:59Z jasom: hitecnologys: use equal if you don't want to assert they are numbers
2015-06-26T23:33:03Z hitecnologys: abbe: right.
2015-06-26T23:33:21Z hitecnologys: jasom: that doesn't solve the problem.
2015-06-26T23:33:22Z abbe: cool, thanks for confirming.
2015-06-26T23:33:44Z hitecnologys: abbe: though, you might not want to mess with running production system.
2015-06-26T23:33:49Z scymtym: drmeister: compiler-macros usually "decline" (return the input form unchanged) and maybe signal a warning (not an error) in case of unexpected/known wrong input. since this is part of your implementation, things may be different, though.
2015-06-26T23:34:04Z mrottenkolber: jasom: Oh, EQUAL won't work on vectors, point taken
2015-06-26T23:34:14Z jasom: mrottenkolber: or structures or hash-tables
2015-06-26T23:35:06Z jasom has written a case-sensitive equalp before (though it didn't handle structs)
2015-06-26T23:35:16Z abbe: hitecnologys: I know, but like in this article http://tech.grammarly.com/blog/posts/Running-Lisp-in-Production.html, and there is one about related to a NASA JPL project, having swank running is like an advantage on being able to inspect mission critical system, and add some debug code on fly
2015-06-26T23:35:19Z jasom: why oh why can't I compare two hash tables with string values case sensitively?
2015-06-26T23:35:39Z abbe: when required.
2015-06-26T23:36:06Z mrottenkolber: jasom: That is indeed unfortunate.
2015-06-26T23:36:07Z abbe: ofcourse then you need to assure security of your swank server, no unauthorized accesses etc.
2015-06-26T23:36:27Z mrottenkolber: jasom: why would you want to though? I can't really think of a use case.
2015-06-26T23:36:56Z jasom: JPL is big on being able to efficiently make changes to a running system for various reasons.
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2015-06-26T23:37:54Z abbe: that's true.
2015-06-26T23:38:10Z jasom: mrottenkolber: I very nearly never want to compare strings case insensitively (and I'm suspicious of equalp's ability to do so as it doesn't take a locale) but I very regularly want to compare structures or hashes or arrays, any one of which might contain a string.
2015-06-26T23:38:20Z hitecnologys: abbe: sure, but you should do that very carefully since all these add extra overhead which may slow down the system or even crash it. Debugging production is usually measure of last resort.
2015-06-26T23:38:22Z abbe: but I completely understand about making changes that can't be tracked in VCS
2015-06-26T23:38:36Z drmeister: scymtym: Thank you - this compiler macro is going to substitute for (defun + (&rest numbers) ...)    are you proposing that if the input is poorly formed that I just decline to expand (+ ...) ?
2015-06-26T23:38:58Z abbe: Oh, okay
2015-06-26T23:39:19Z jasom: mrottenkolber: or more regularly, I might want to compare two structures or hashes or lists which contain both byte-vectors and strings.
2015-06-26T23:39:35Z abbe: Thanks for pointing out that, didn't even think in that direction.
2015-06-26T23:39:55Z scymtym: drmeister: not sure in your case. in general, portable programs cannot rely on compiler-macros and thus would have to handle the error cases differently anyway.
2015-06-26T23:40:02Z knobo: I have some trouble with djula.
2015-06-26T23:41:13Z knobo: I have a list of list. And I have nested {% for ... %}, then I have a {{ value.key }}.
2015-06-26T23:41:17Z drmeister: scymtym: It is an idea that had not occurred to me.  I was talking with beach earlier and his suggestions led me down the path to validate the input and generate errors on malformed input.
2015-06-26T23:41:24Z knobo: the {{ value.key }} does not work.
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2015-06-26T23:43:45Z knobo: Maybe I should not have nested "for" loops
2015-06-26T23:44:32Z mrottenkolber: What pitfalls do I have to watch out for when using RANDOM in a thread? (random 7) keeps returning 6
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2015-06-26T23:45:30Z jasom: I don't think I've ever used random in production code
2015-06-26T23:45:45Z mrottenkolber: Its not production code :D
2015-06-26T23:45:53Z mrottenkolber: its a test
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2015-06-26T23:46:07Z mrottenkolber: supposedly randomised
2015-06-26T23:46:31Z drmeister: scymtym: It is an interesting suggestion - I'll think on it.
2015-06-26T23:46:36Z jasom: If each thread were to bind *random-state* on entry, then you would end up with the same sequence of values for each thread
2015-06-26T23:47:35Z scymtym: drmeister: in this context, clear error messages are probably most important. so between the compiler-macros and the compilation of unexpanded t+ whatever can generate the better error message should probably be used. there is also the question of how clasp handles compile-time-known errors in general (e.g. warn at compile-time and insert code that errors at runtime vs. error at compile-time).
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2015-06-26T23:49:09Z jasom: mrottenkolber: if you wrap each thread body with (let ((*random-state* (make-random-state))) ...) that should be "good enough"
2015-06-26T23:49:47Z drmeister: scymtym: In that case it is better to have the error generated by the compiler macro (which will be invisible to the user) because the + function is implemented in C++ and it produces... uh... "implementation dependent behavior" on malformed input.
2015-06-26T23:50:16Z jasom: mrottenkolber: I think you can get that easier with :initial-bindings '(*random-state* (make-random-state)) but I'm not sure, I can't find good documentation for :initial-bindings
2015-06-26T23:50:55Z drmeister notes that improper and circular lists give my C++ code gas.
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2015-06-26T23:52:00Z jasom: mrottenkolber: ah, it's an alist and you can put it in *default-special-bindings even
2015-06-26T23:52:19Z mrottenkolber: Guys try this: (random 7 (make-random-state))
2015-06-26T23:52:20Z jasom: (push (cons '*random-state* '(make-random-state)) *default-special-bindings*) may work
2015-06-26T23:52:34Z mrottenkolber: Does it always return the same value on your implementation too?
2015-06-26T23:52:42Z jasom: it does
2015-06-26T23:53:06Z scymtym: drmeister: maybe it would be possible to check for proper lists for all forms that are recognized as function calls before expanding [compiler-]macros? could save repeated work.
2015-06-26T23:53:10Z jasom: sorry (make-random-state t)
2015-06-26T23:53:16Z jasom: (push (cons '*random-state* '(make-random-state t)) *default-special-bindings*) may work
2015-06-26T23:53:27Z mrottenkolber: Ahhhhh
2015-06-26T23:53:28Z jasom: it's defined to be the same if you don't specify T
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2015-06-26T23:53:36Z mrottenkolber: :D
2015-06-26T23:53:45Z mrottenkolber: I was a bit floored there
2015-06-26T23:53:58Z jasom: If state is nil, the new-state is a copy[5] of the current random state.
2015-06-26T23:54:17Z mrottenkolber: I didn't expect RANDOM to be cryptographically secure but always returning the same value :D
2015-06-26T23:55:47Z jasom: mrottenkolber: it will always return the same value if given the same state
2015-06-26T23:56:08Z jasom: http://dilbert.com/strip/2001-10-25
2015-06-26T23:57:26Z nyef: https://xkcd.com/221/
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2015-06-26T23:57:44Z mrottenkolber: obligatory :)
2015-06-26T23:57:47Z jasom: nyef: which is all the more funny since with my current state 4 is what was returned :)
2015-06-26T23:57:55Z nyef: Heh. There you go.
2015-06-26T23:58:25Z nyef: The other angle is to request a random number with a range so tightly constrained that only one result is possible.
2015-06-26T23:58:35Z mrottenkolber: I thought about the dilbert comic too, random size steps in my case: 6, 12, 18, ...
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2015-06-27T00:01:12Z drmeister: I'm trying to decompose (- minuend &rest subtrahends) to nested binary operations.
2015-06-27T00:01:44Z drmeister: It looks like (- x a b c d) --> (- x (+ a (+ b (+ c d))))
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2015-06-27T00:02:26Z drmeister: (bin- x (bin+ a (bin+ b (bin+ c d))))
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2015-06-27T00:03:19Z drmeister: I'm fishing for confirmation if anyone knows the answer off the top of their heads.
2015-06-27T00:03:33Z jasom: drmeister: your decomposition looks right
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2015-06-27T00:04:03Z nyef: drmeister: (- (- (- (- x a) b) c) d) is the other angle, I believe.
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2015-06-27T00:04:29Z jasom is trying to think if either way is more efficient if you overflow fixnums
2015-06-27T00:04:47Z jasom: other than that they should be the same
2015-06-27T00:04:59Z drmeister: nyef, jasom - thank you.
2015-06-27T00:05:15Z jasom: oh, it will also potentially have different results with floats
2015-06-27T00:05:26Z nyef: Right, right. Float contagion.
2015-06-27T00:05:45Z jasom: I don't know if the clhs constrains you to one or the other in the event of floats
2015-06-27T00:05:50Z drmeister: Would it really?
2015-06-27T00:06:08Z jasom: drmeister: consider (- big small small small)
2015-06-27T00:06:32Z drmeister: It says this:  If more than one argument is given, it subtracts all of the subtrahends from the minuend and returns the result.
2015-06-27T00:06:32Z mrottenkolber: Does anybody know how "heavyweight" CCL and SBCL threads are compared to Erlang processes? How many threads can I expect to be able to spawn? 1000, 10.000, 1.000.000?
2015-06-27T00:06:33Z jasom: (- (- (big small) small) small) could be equal to big
2015-06-27T00:06:37Z Bike: floats are bad for compilers.
2015-06-27T00:07:06Z jasom: while (- big (+ small small small)) might make the right-hand side of the minus larger than an ULP
2015-06-27T00:07:23Z drmeister: ULP?
2015-06-27T00:08:01Z jasom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_in_the_last_place
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2015-06-27T00:08:31Z jasom: basically the very smallest amount distinguishable with a given exponent
2015-06-27T00:08:34Z nyef: mrottenkolber: I'd expect "fairly heavyweight", at least for SBCL.
2015-06-27T00:08:52Z jasom: drmeister: let's pretend floats are in base 10 with 3 digits
2015-06-27T00:09:12Z drmeister: Yes, I see.
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2015-06-27T00:09:59Z jasom: (- 1.00e3 5) would be 1.00e3, but (- 1.00e3 15) would be 9.95e2
2015-06-27T00:10:36Z jasom: or something similar, rounding is very different from base 10 to base 2
2015-06-27T00:11:00Z drmeister: It sounds like (- x (+ y (+ z w))) is a better way to go.
2015-06-27T00:11:25Z jasom: drmeister: unless x z and w are negative :P
2015-06-27T00:12:12Z drmeister: The CLHS doesn't say anything about this.  I think it's going to be up to the programmer to deal with these.
2015-06-27T00:12:15Z nyef: This... reminds me of linear algebra considerations.
2015-06-27T00:12:54Z Bike: linear algebra?
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2015-06-27T00:13:08Z nyef: I forget what the actual terms are, but where if you do the steps in the wrong order you can basically destroy any accuracy you could have gotten.
2015-06-27T00:13:20Z jasom: nyef: catastrophic cancellation
2015-06-27T00:13:27Z nyef: Something like that.
2015-06-27T00:13:36Z Bike: oh, like matrices, why was i thinking of anything else
2015-06-27T00:13:42Z nyef: Had to do with float accuracy and whatnot.
2015-06-27T00:13:49Z drmeister: Right, but if the arguments are variables then they will only be known at runtime.
2015-06-27T00:13:53Z jasom: the quadratic formula is virtually guaranteed to do it if you implement it naively
2015-06-27T00:15:32Z Bike: i think the best thing about floating point i've heard from compiler people is that if you allow runtime effects on the fpu flags you can reduce absolutely nothing at compile time
2015-06-27T00:15:33Z drmeister backs slowly away from the math wizards
2015-06-27T00:16:03Z nyef: drmeister: You too, huh?
2015-06-27T00:16:05Z jasom: Bike: this is why most compilers don't guarantee to preserve float results
2015-06-27T00:16:11Z Bike: mmhm...
2015-06-27T00:16:22Z Bike: gotta get me some -fheinous-gnu-extensions
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2015-06-27T00:16:49Z jasom: There are guidelines for how to do it in the IEEE standard, but The C specification addendum (or appendix or whatever they call it) messed it up
2015-06-27T00:17:05Z drmeister likes integers, he knows where he stands with integers
2015-06-27T00:17:06Z Bike: oh, really? nice
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2015-06-27T00:17:30Z mrottenkolber: Whenever CS related math comes up, I feel super inferior because I was too lazy to actually go to uni...
2015-06-27T00:17:40Z Bike: there's always the internet.
2015-06-27T00:18:05Z jasom: Bike: yeah, the IEEE standard is actually fairly sane: default to fairly strict requirements, but have a standard mandated configuration option that has another set of more loosely defined constraints.
2015-06-27T00:18:27Z jasom: And there are some optimizations disallowed even under the loose set, but they more-or-less make sense
2015-06-27T00:18:31Z Bike: drmeister: integers has funny stuff too. there's this whole thing where you reduce divisions to multiplies since on a computer you're mod whatever
2015-06-27T00:18:47Z Bike: jasom: i mean, what'd C mess up?
2015-06-27T00:18:52Z jasom: mrottenkolber: uni didn't teach me anything about floating point, but I got burned once and spend months reading up
2015-06-27T00:18:52Z drmeister turns and runs
2015-06-27T00:19:15Z jasom: Bike: they picked a slightly different set of constraints that is fairly strict, and didn't specify compilers supporting the looser mode.
2015-06-27T00:19:16Z drmeister: I'm kidding - thank you gentlemen.
2015-06-27T00:19:24Z Bike: sweet.
2015-06-27T00:19:39Z drmeister: I'll use (- x (+ y (+ z w)))
2015-06-27T00:19:39Z jasom looks for his C spec
2015-06-27T00:19:59Z Bike: i guess clhs doesn't actually specify the associativity of -? does it?
2015-06-27T00:20:04Z nyef: Bike: Oh, the division-by-multiplication stuff? Isn't that in the PPC Compiler Writer's Guide, and later Hackers' Delight?
2015-06-27T00:20:13Z Bike: nyef: and sbcl!
2015-06-27T00:20:30Z nyef: SBCL, unlike some software, is not a book.
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2015-06-27T00:20:58Z Bike: yeah, i don't think the associativity of + and - and such is specified, nice.
2015-06-27T00:22:02Z jasom: also, "A contracted expression should deliver the same value as its uncontracted counterpart, else should be correctly rounded (once)."
2015-06-27T00:22:10Z jasom: so, it can be the same, or it can be rounded
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2015-06-27T00:28:25Z jasom: Also if you follow Annex F strictly, you can't convert a*b+c to a fused-multiply-add (which most FPUs have) *sigh*
2015-06-27T00:28:45Z jasom: "We are sorry, that result would be too accurate"
2015-06-27T00:28:59Z Bike: that's why C is close to the metal
2015-06-27T00:29:30Z jasom: Bike: and every compiler has a flag to disregard annex F (and in some cases it's on by default)
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2015-06-27T02:47:59Z drmeister: I just got a 2x speedup in counting loops using compiler macros.
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2015-06-27T02:48:12Z Ober: drmeister:  nice
2015-06-27T02:48:16Z drmeister: (time (dotimes (i 1000000) (+ 3 4)))
2015-06-27T02:48:26Z drmeister: 6.4 seconds without compiler macros
2015-06-27T02:48:38Z drmeister: 2.57 seconds with compiler macros for + - < <= >= > = 1+ 1-
2015-06-27T02:49:29Z drmeister: The compiler macros convert what would be &rest argument processing into compile-time generation of nested binary operations.
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2015-06-27T02:53:01Z akkad: acl real time  0.002901 sec (99.97%), LW Elapsed time =        0.881
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2015-06-27T03:31:09Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-06-27T03:33:34Z joshe: you know what would sometimes be nice?
2015-06-27T03:33:49Z joshe: a diff which could be told to ignore changes in the number of closing parens on a line
2015-06-27T03:34:18Z joshe: like how diff implementations can often be told to ignore whitespace changes
2015-06-27T03:34:48Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-06-27T03:36:32Z nyef: beach: I'm currently entertaining the idea that STANDARD-SHEET-OUTPUT-MIXIN is primarily for stream panes, does all of the "bounce requests to the associated medium" stuff, and that most non-stream panes won't include it.
2015-06-27T03:37:26Z beach: nyef: OK.  Seems worth pursuing.
2015-06-27T03:38:50Z nyef: Basically, any graphics output can be done via WITH-SHEET-MEDIUM.
2015-06-27T03:39:13Z beach: For non-stream panes?
2015-06-27T03:39:18Z nyef: For any pane.
2015-06-27T03:39:26Z beach: Right.  I see.
2015-06-27T03:39:36Z nyef: But it would defeat output-recording.
2015-06-27T03:40:00Z nyef: Which is actually what you want, for the input-editor.
2015-06-27T03:40:25Z beach: Seems right.
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2015-06-27T03:41:10Z nyef: I started with the argument of "when would I *not* want to use WITH-SHEET-MEDIUM".
2015-06-27T03:42:06Z nyef: And the answer was "when I'm drawing on *standard-output*".
2015-06-27T03:42:17Z beach: Or "When I want output recording"?
2015-06-27T03:42:28Z nyef: No, just realized the output-recording connection now.
2015-06-27T03:42:33Z beach: I see.
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2015-06-27T03:45:24Z nyef: Oh, and the realization that the sample panes in the CLIM II spec don't have any evidence of supporting the output protocol beyond having a temporary medium.
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2015-06-27T03:46:26Z nyef: Although they don't declare that they have any particular medium mixin.
2015-06-27T03:46:27Z beach: I never thought about that.
2015-06-27T03:47:13Z nyef: So, if that "bounce" thing with using the medium protocols on the sheet is for streams, and then there's the :around for output-recording...
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2015-06-27T03:49:12Z beach: Yes, I remember that one.  It is specific for stream panes, right?
2015-06-27T03:50:27Z nyef: I'm not sure that it is advertised as such, but I believe that it should be.
2015-06-27T03:51:00Z beach: I see.
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2015-06-27T03:54:38Z nyef: Now I have to wonder why TEMPORARY-MEDIUM-SHEET-OUTPUT-MIXIN is distinct from SHEET-WITH-MEDIUM-MIXIN.
2015-06-27T03:55:12Z beach: It might have been some optimization that was justified at the time, but no longer is.
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2015-06-27T03:56:20Z nyef: Or there's some clever semantic that it enables that I'm just not seeing yet.
2015-06-27T03:58:38Z beach: When you see some stuff in the spec that seems odd, would you please write an annotation?
2015-06-27T03:58:55Z beach: I am assuming you are using the "annotatable" spec, right?
2015-06-27T03:59:04Z nyef: I'm working from a local copy.
2015-06-27T03:59:12Z beach: Oh, that's too bad.
2015-06-27T03:59:34Z beach: I guess you can still put in an annotation on the bauhh copy.
2015-06-27T04:00:15Z nyef: I suppose.
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2015-06-27T04:00:43Z beach: I am saying that because your discoveries could be useful to others.
2015-06-27T04:00:43Z pjb: joshe: sed -e 's/[()]//g' < a.lisp > a.pl ; sed -e 's/[()]//g' < b.lisp > b.pl ; diff a.pl b.pl
2015-06-27T04:01:21Z pjb: joshe: otherwise, you're a programmer, you've got Common Lisp, you have the right to write a program.
2015-06-27T04:02:12Z joshe: I implemented something similarly horrible the other day in python (ugh) to get mostly whitespace-insensitive diffs using its difflib
2015-06-27T04:02:54Z joshe: but yes, of course I could always implement it myself
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2015-06-27T04:14:55Z nyef: beach: Here's another one: In section 8.3.4, is WITH-SHEET-MEDIUM-BOUND. Is the MEDIUM argument required to be a symbol that is evaluated and then rebound, or can it be any old form that is merely evaluated?
2015-06-27T04:15:44Z beach: Hold on.  Looking...
2015-06-27T04:16:59Z beach: nyef: Elsewhere in the spec, similar macros require that the argument be a symbol.
2015-06-27T04:17:22Z nyef: Yes, the immediately-preceding WITH-SHEET-MEDIUM does, but it has different semantics.
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2015-06-27T04:18:19Z nyef: I suspect that the actual use-case for with-sheet-medium-bound requires an immediate with-sheet-medium within to find the actual medium being used.
2015-06-27T04:18:29Z beach: I don't think there is the symbol restriction here.
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2015-06-27T04:18:37Z nyef: Unless it goes to the trouble of rebinding its medium argument for that.
2015-06-27T04:18:48Z nyef: And there's no indication that it does.
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2015-06-27T04:19:14Z nyef: Except for the requirement that its semantics be the same as with-sheet-medium if the medium evaluates to nil.
2015-06-27T04:19:15Z beach: It talks about the value of medium being NIL.
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2015-06-27T04:19:57Z nyef: Oh, I guess using sheet-medium is also an option. Hrm.
2015-06-27T04:20:34Z beach: I would say medium can be any form.
2015-06-27T04:20:45Z nyef: Yeah, I think that's about what I'm ready to accept as well.
2015-06-27T04:21:21Z beach: See, that's worth an annotation.
2015-06-27T04:23:41Z nyef: That probably is.
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2015-06-27T04:32:13Z nyef: "Done."
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2015-06-27T04:41:06Z nyef: ... What if a number of these crazy subclasses are to provide more explicit diagnostic errors?
2015-06-27T04:41:56Z nyef: The sheet-mute-output-mixin, for example, defines a bunch of methods that just signal errors.
2015-06-27T04:42:18Z nyef: The standard-sheet-output-mixin defines the various "bounce" methods.
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2015-06-27T04:43:36Z nyef: Either way, if you don't include one of the two, you end up with no-applicable-method rather than a more specific error.
2015-06-27T04:46:02Z nyef: Except that if this IS the philosophy behind it, there's no mention of it that I've been able to find.
2015-06-27T04:46:04Z beach: nyef: Thanks.
2015-06-27T04:47:28Z beach: I don't see how it can be an advantage not to signal specific error conditions.
2015-06-27T04:48:13Z nyef: Simplicity of implementation.
2015-06-27T04:48:23Z beach: Yeah, sure.
2015-06-27T04:48:51Z nyef: Basically the same thing from earlier about SIMPLE-ERROR.
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2015-06-27T04:48:53Z beach: But it takes only a few minutes to create such a condition.
2015-06-27T04:49:02Z beach: Yes, same thing.
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2015-06-27T04:52:45Z drmeister: Hi beach
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2015-06-27T04:53:04Z beach: Hello drmeister.
2015-06-27T04:55:35Z drmeister: Can I ask a question about Cleavir and compiler macros?   There doesn't appear to be anything like a global-compiler-macro-function-info class.  In sicl/Code/Cleavir/Environment/query.lisp it appears that the way I indicate that a symbol is associated with a compiler macro is to return an instance of global-function-info with the slot COMPILER-MACRO set to
2015-06-27T04:55:36Z drmeister: the compiler macro function.
2015-06-27T04:55:57Z beach: Correct.
2015-06-27T04:57:11Z drmeister: Ok, I was looking more for confirmation that that is the way things were supposed to be
2015-06-27T04:57:57Z beach: You got it. :)
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2015-06-27T04:58:07Z drmeister: Thanks.
2015-06-27T04:58:33Z beach: So are you happy with the current progress?
2015-06-27T04:59:09Z drmeister: I've been working towards inlining the cleavir-primop:fixnum-XXX functions
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2015-06-27T04:59:47Z drmeister: I implemented several compiler macros and achieved a 2x speedup for (dotimes (i 1000000) (+ 3 4)) but it didn't have any impact in compilation speed.
2015-06-27T05:01:13Z drmeister: So no, not yet.
2015-06-27T05:01:33Z beach: Is this the cclasp compiler?
2015-06-27T05:01:37Z beach: Using Cleavir?
2015-06-27T05:01:49Z drmeister: I'll inline fixnum-XXX where XXX is + - < <= > >= = and see what that gets me.
2015-06-27T05:01:51Z beach: I haven't even started thinking about compilation speed for Cleavir.
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2015-06-27T05:03:22Z drmeister: No, this is for bclasp.  cclasp required about 10 hours to compile using bclasp a couple of days ago.  I decided to implement compiler macros in bclasp to see if I could speed that up.  I'm timing it now.
2015-06-27T05:03:39Z beach: I see.
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2015-06-27T05:03:57Z drmeister: Well, it's for both.  The compiler macros won't change from bbclasp to cclasp.
2015-06-27T05:04:09Z beach: Right.
2015-06-27T05:04:22Z drmeister: They convert functions that take &REST arguments and convert them to binary versions.
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2015-06-27T05:04:42Z beach: That will probably avoid some consing at least.
2015-06-27T05:04:43Z drmeister: I wrote compiler macros for + - < <= > >= =
2015-06-27T05:04:51Z drmeister: Yes
2015-06-27T05:05:18Z drmeister: Now I am ready to implement binary-+ the way you suggested.
2015-06-27T05:05:36Z drmeister: Inserting runtime checks for type and inlining.
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2015-06-27T05:06:04Z beach: Oh, speaking of which...
2015-06-27T05:06:34Z beach: The extensive syntax checks in a compiler macro are mainly useful when the compiler macro is for a macro.
2015-06-27T05:06:49Z beach: For functions, it is often enough to return the original form.
2015-06-27T05:07:29Z beach: Because, presumably, the compiler can catch errors such as improper lists for function calls.
2015-06-27T05:07:31Z drmeister: scymtym was suggesting that earlier in the day.
2015-06-27T05:07:47Z beach: Yes, I read the logs.
2015-06-27T05:07:52Z beach: That's why I am saying it.
2015-06-27T05:07:57Z drmeister: I see.
2015-06-27T05:08:34Z beach: On the other hand, if your compiler does a mediocre work for function calls, then it could still be a good idea.
2015-06-27T05:09:05Z drmeister: I'll leave the error checking in place in the compiler macros.
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2015-06-27T07:16:43Z schjetne: Found this on Hacker News: http://tech.grammarly.com/blog/posts/Running-Lisp-in-Production.html
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2015-06-27T07:18:16Z beach: Nice!
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2015-06-27T07:21:44Z schjetne: I was going to try to get some real work done and not dick around on HN, but this time my lack of discipline paid off!
2015-06-27T07:22:14Z schjetne: I need to revise my own SBCL deployment, this comes in really handy.
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2015-06-27T08:49:01Z PuercoPop: Any idea why a system that works, cl-async, would fail to compile when using buildapp. The logfile complains about a symbol not being external to a dependency, fast io, but it is and the system compiles fine using buildapp. http://paste.lisp.org/+389E
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2015-06-27T09:30:24Z ZombieChicken: is Common Lisp the Language 2nd Edition up to date?
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2015-06-27T09:32:48Z H4ns: ZombieChicken: no, but it is a useful text nevertheless
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2015-06-27T09:33:31Z jackdaniel: ZombieChicken: current oracle is Common Lisp Hyper Spec
2015-06-27T09:34:23Z ZombieChicken: jackdaniel: H4ns Thanks
2015-06-27T09:34:51Z JaHaHa: Have there ever been any sequels to the LISP programming video game "Abuse", or other games like Abuse since 1995
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2015-06-27T10:08:01Z XachX: PuercoPop: stale stuff in quicklisp directory perhaps
2015-06-27T10:08:20Z XachX: PuercoPop: try using a manifest file instead
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2015-06-27T10:15:13Z PuercoPop: XachX: so that is why dim had setup pgloader to use a clean ql dir. K I'll try that thanks
2015-06-27T10:16:02Z XachX: PuercoPop: in general asdf-tree is the wrong option for quicklisp.
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2015-06-27T10:25:49Z PuercoPop: but asdf-path for an out-of-ql dependency should be an issue right
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2015-06-27T11:17:42Z DeadTrickster: anybody getting destructuring-bind error while compiling slime 2.14 with sbcl 1.2.12?
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2015-06-27T11:19:26Z DeadTrickster: it says somethink like odd number of elements in keyword/value list: (:ERROR)
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2015-06-27T12:05:22Z beach: Hello nyef!
2015-06-27T12:06:50Z nyef: G'morning.
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2015-06-27T13:18:11Z pjb: I added handling of ,@ to my paredit space stuff: http://paste.lisp.org/display/150588#1
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2015-06-27T14:24:40Z Xach: Shinmera: qt-libs don't work today because of an implicit dependency on sb-posix
2015-06-27T14:25:13Z Shinmera: Xach: For some reason I distinctly remember telling myself to depend on it, but I never actually put it into the source code.
2015-06-27T14:25:31Z Xach: here is reminder #2
2015-06-27T14:25:48Z Shinmera: Should be fixed.
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2015-06-27T14:27:56Z Xach rebuilds
2015-06-27T14:37:25Z smokeink: Shinmera: when you compiled smokeqt, did you also compile the optional component qimageblitz ?
2015-06-27T14:37:25Z Colleen: smokeink: Shinmera wrote to you on Friday 2015.06.26 20:21:55 : Here you go, and good luck. https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/323
2015-06-27T14:39:25Z Shinmera: smokeink: no
2015-06-27T14:39:38Z Shinmera: smokeink: The only optional dependency I compiled is phonon.
2015-06-27T14:41:17Z smokeink: ok. i found this http://mxe.cc/#tutorial which is really cool .  i managed to compile qt, smokegen, optional dependency Qwt5 for smokeqt ,i'm now stuck with this qimageblitz
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2015-06-27T14:42:29Z smokeink: the proccess was pretty straightforward, so far. but still there are some params for cmake that i had to dig all over the webz, so in the end if i succeed i'll also write a tut, how to cross compile qt
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2015-06-27T14:46:10Z smokeink: i really hate those microsoft msvcp110.dll etc , with their unreasonable 'microsoft xp is not supported any more' limitations
2015-06-27T14:46:49Z MTR-1: I hate more Facebook offices :-)
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2015-06-27T14:47:30Z smokeink: what's a good channel for asking library compilation issues?
2015-06-27T14:47:34Z Shinmera: I don't think it's unreasonable to drop support for an OS that has reached its end of lifecycle well after the intended date.
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2015-06-27T15:10:12Z theos: i think its unreasonable to use windows
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2015-06-27T15:49:35Z nyef: Hunh. I just realized that my current "clx-interface" hack is actually an ersatz frame-manager.
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2015-06-27T16:27:00Z cluck: nyef: despite many implementations being awful the web's box model is a very elegant system that i bet would (with minor changes) fit cl like a glove, *clim is already halfway there too so an improved clim could have a lot to gain by mining it more heavily for the pearls it hides :)
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2015-06-27T16:37:26Z nyef: cluck: Perhaps, but for now I'm still trying to get to the point of handling events cleanly and drawing text on the screen, preferably in color.
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2015-06-27T16:42:08Z Shinmera: I think you'd do better taking inspiration from TeX' box model than the web's.
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2015-06-27T17:11:25Z whiteline: or make it explicit using a widget contailer/alignment system
2015-06-27T17:11:29Z whiteline: *container
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2015-06-27T17:12:35Z nyef: Hrm... Fancy layout control, huh?
2015-06-27T17:13:02Z nyef: Apart from the stream model, that actually sounds somewhat doable as an add-on.
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2015-06-27T17:21:49Z DeadTrickster: anybody there?
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2015-06-27T17:23:06Z Bike: no (yes)
2015-06-27T17:24:07Z DeadTrickster: I really stuck with that 'odd number of elements in keyword/value list: (:ERROR) error while doing (ql:quickload :swank)
2015-06-27T17:24:27Z cluck: Shinmera: actually both are trivial to implement the way smalltalk's morphic does it. lively kernel is also relatively small (even though it's js)
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2015-06-27T17:26:37Z cluck: (it's slightly more cpu intensive in single core systems but scales beautifully [and efficiently!] as resources grow)
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2015-06-27T17:46:18Z Xach: DeadTrickster: where does it come from?
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2015-06-27T18:06:12Z Somnasper: Latest version of context-coloring is 7.0, but MELPA only installs 6.3
2015-06-27T18:06:20Z Somnasper: How do I fix this?
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2015-06-27T18:06:47Z Xach: Somnasper: that seems like more of an emacs question than a common lisp question.
2015-06-27T18:06:51Z Xach: Somnasper: maybe ask in #emacs?
2015-06-27T18:07:03Z Somnasper: Ah sorry, thanks!
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2015-06-27T18:40:13Z DeadTrickster: Xach, I compiled latest sbcl from sources, cloned slime 2.14 the error occurs when I do (ql:quickload :swank)
2015-06-27T18:40:40Z DeadTrickster: Error while loading backend.lisp
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2015-06-27T18:44:41Z DeadTrickster: Xach, http://pastebin.com/SkqsdpDz
2015-06-27T18:48:40Z DeadTrickster: I tested with sbcl 1.2.0 1.2.12 1.2.11 and various slime versions. It'sss Ubuntu 15-something
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2015-06-27T18:50:22Z DeadTrickster: I also tried to delete slime fasl cache
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2015-06-27T18:53:58Z |3b|: DeadTrickster: are you sure that is 2.14? alternately, is the error any different after clearing fasl cache?
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2015-06-27T18:54:39Z DeadTrickster: I'm sure, no no  difference at all
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2015-06-27T18:54:55Z |3b|: including the 2014-12-23 in the error?
2015-06-27T18:55:01Z DeadTrickster: yep
2015-06-27T18:55:22Z DeadTrickster: i'm on tag right niw
2015-06-27T18:55:34Z |3b|: does HEAD work?
2015-06-27T18:55:38Z DeadTrickster: but error is the same for 2.14
2015-06-27T18:55:40Z DeadTrickster: no
2015-06-27T18:56:08Z DeadTrickster: this is where it started - latest sbcl
2015-06-27T18:56:18Z DeadTrickster: & slime head
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2015-06-27T18:59:59Z |3b|: try passing :VERBOSE T to quickload (in a fresh sbcl, the 2nd error in that paste is from trying to load it twice, and unrelated to the original problem i think)
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2015-06-27T19:01:21Z DeadTrickster: |3b|, nothing new
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2015-06-27T19:01:56Z DeadTrickster: |3b|, (ql:quickload :swank :verbose t), right?
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2015-06-27T19:02:25Z |3b|: yeah, i think so... no change to the output at all?
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2015-06-27T19:02:51Z DeadTrickster: yeap, sorry )
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2015-06-27T19:03:53Z DeadTrickster: btw I'm using latest quicklisp if that matters
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2015-06-27T19:04:45Z DeadTrickster: ouh and everything was F.I.N.E until sbcl update to 1.2.12
2015-06-27T19:04:59Z |3b|: try (asdf:load-system :swank)
2015-06-27T19:05:46Z DeadTrickster: same shit
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2015-06-27T19:06:24Z |3b|: (and just to make sure, you are working in /home/dead/quicklisp/local-projects/slime/ right?)
2015-06-27T19:06:58Z DeadTrickster: yep I cloned it here, I also tried slime from quicklisp
2015-06-27T19:07:33Z |3b|: try passing :verbose t to load-system
2015-06-27T19:07:53Z |3b| doesn't remember if it accepts that or defaults to t or not if so
2015-06-27T19:07:56Z DeadTrickster: let me create new paste
2015-06-27T19:08:10Z |3b|: maybe try :force t as well
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2015-06-27T19:09:16Z DeadTrickster: http://pastebin.com/8RN3LWmw
2015-06-27T19:10:25Z DeadTrickster: :force t changes nothing
2015-06-27T19:10:34Z |3b|: ah, swank is loading things itself :(
2015-06-27T19:11:08Z DeadTrickster: yep
2015-06-27T19:11:11Z DeadTrickster: swank-loader
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2015-06-27T19:13:27Z |3b|: and first entry of ~/quicklisp/local-projects/slime/ChangeLog is 2015-06-27 ?
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2015-06-27T19:14:29Z DeadTrickster: no I'm on 2.12 tag
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2015-06-27T19:15:23Z |3b|: ok, so you do get different output when you change slime versions
2015-06-27T19:15:32Z DeadTrickster: no
2015-06-27T19:15:41Z DeadTrickster: I just switched back to HEAD
2015-06-27T19:16:13Z |3b|: and delete the slime .fasl cache and the asdf fasl cache, and you get the exact same output, including the 2014 in the path?
2015-06-27T19:16:22Z |3b|: in a fresh sbcl image
2015-06-27T19:16:25Z DeadTrickster: oh no
2015-06-27T19:16:29Z DeadTrickster: not 2014
2015-06-27T19:17:03Z DeadTrickster: 2015-06-27
2015-06-27T19:17:25Z DeadTrickster: /home/dead/.slime/2015-06-27/....
2015-06-27T19:17:40Z DeadTrickster: the rest is the same
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2015-06-27T19:18:06Z |3b|: ok, that rules out a bunch of possibilities then... if it were staying the same it was probably loading the wrong file somewhere
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2015-06-27T19:18:40Z |3b|: you don't already have swank loaded in that image, right? (you aren't running in slime already for example)
2015-06-27T19:18:52Z DeadTrickster: no no no
2015-06-27T19:19:06Z DeadTrickster: just me bash terminal emulator and sbcl
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2015-06-27T19:19:32Z |3b|: try setting *break-on-signals* to t before loading swank
2015-06-27T19:20:05Z |3b|: hopefully will end up in debugger somewhere relevant
2015-06-27T19:20:15Z DeadTrickster: funny thing is I have exactly same setup on other machine - works perfectly
2015-06-27T19:20:40Z |3b|: yeah, debugging things that usually work are annoying :/
2015-06-27T19:21:33Z |3b|: you are running sbcl 1.2.0 intentionally, right?
2015-06-27T19:21:52Z DeadTrickster: yeah I tried to reproduce my other setup
2015-06-27T19:22:11Z DeadTrickster: error doesn't change with different sbcl versions I've tested
2015-06-27T19:22:25Z DeadTrickster: basically 1.2.*
2015-06-27T19:22:26Z |3b|: anything in .sbclrc or .swank.lisp ?
2015-06-27T19:22:32Z DeadTrickster: let me check
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2015-06-27T19:23:05Z DeadTrickster: wow
2015-06-27T19:23:13Z DeadTrickster: LOL
2015-06-27T19:23:17Z DeadTrickster: ^_^
2015-06-27T19:23:21Z |3b|: actually, just try with sbcl --no-userinit --no-sysinit
2015-06-27T19:23:31Z |3b|: unless you already found something obvious
2015-06-27T19:23:42Z DeadTrickster: I have setf (sb-ext:*on-package-variance* '[error]]
2015-06-27T19:23:53Z DeadTrickster: what the duck?
2015-06-27T19:24:07Z oleo: the duck is a variable not a function
2015-06-27T19:24:09Z oleo: lol
2015-06-27T19:24:16Z DeadTrickster: yea I
2015-06-27T19:24:19Z oleo: hahahaha
2015-06-27T19:24:20Z DeadTrickster: ''m retyping it
2015-06-27T19:24:24Z oleo: :)
2015-06-27T19:24:49Z DeadTrickster: ok - (setf *on-package-variance* '(:error))
2015-06-27T19:25:09Z oleo: you can still qualify it
2015-06-27T19:25:40Z oleo: (setf sb-ext::*on-package-variance* :error)
2015-06-27T19:25:45Z |3b|: yeah, that looks invalid
2015-06-27T19:25:49Z |3b|: that too
2015-06-27T19:25:54Z DeadTrickster: lol
2015-06-27T19:25:55Z oleo: how so ?
2015-06-27T19:25:58Z |3b|: (setf *on-package-variance* '(:error t))
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2015-06-27T19:26:02Z DeadTrickster: (
2015-06-27T19:26:06Z oleo: ah
2015-06-27T19:26:10Z |3b|: assuming you want it to always fail
2015-06-27T19:26:10Z DeadTrickster: yep that is why it failed
2015-06-27T19:26:12Z oleo: (setf sb-ext::*on-package-variance* :error t)
2015-06-27T19:26:13Z DeadTrickster: excatly
2015-06-27T19:26:40Z oleo: hmm ok
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2015-06-27T19:27:12Z DeadTrickster: OK now everything works as expected
2015-06-27T19:27:30Z DeadTrickster: what I meant with this line... it's hopelesss
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2015-06-27T19:28:43Z DeadTrickster: |3b|, huge thank you and kitties
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2015-06-27T19:30:53Z scymtym: DeadTrickster: not sure what you mean by hopeless. if you want (:error t) without breaking slime, you could try something like http://paste.lisp.org/display/150716.
2015-06-27T19:31:28Z DeadTrickster: scymtym, hopeless like I don't know single ducking reason I put it here
2015-06-27T19:32:21Z scymtym: i see. (:error t) gives you the (very useful) DROP-THEM restart. maybe that was the original reason.
2015-06-27T19:32:25Z vydd: hm. anyone working on https://github.com/commonqt/commonqt/issues/16 ?
2015-06-27T19:32:44Z vydd: (.ui -> lisp compiler)
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2015-06-27T19:33:39Z Shinmera: Not from what I know.
2015-06-27T19:33:45Z Shinmera: And I don't have time right now.
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2015-06-27T19:34:45Z vydd: seems like a nice challenge :)
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2015-06-27T19:35:41Z DeadTrickster: why sb-daemon not it quicklisp btw?
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2015-06-27T19:35:58Z Shinmera: Probably because it's sbcl specific.
2015-06-27T19:36:17Z Shinmera: vydd: You're more than welcome to take it on.
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2015-06-27T19:37:13Z jasom: DeadTrickster: FWIW, Most process monitoring tools can handle non-damonized processes these days
2015-06-27T19:37:41Z vydd: Shinmera: I'll actually try to do something about it. No promises, though.
2015-06-27T19:38:09Z DeadTrickster: jasom, I just like how it integrates with init scripts and stuff
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2015-06-27T19:38:19Z p_l: daemonization, tbh, seems to be an artifact of ancient init-less systems or their weird resurrections
2015-06-27T19:38:28Z jasom: upstart, runit, systemd, daemontools all do just fine
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2015-06-27T19:39:49Z jasom: DeadTrickster: nohup sbcl & <-- use that to launch from init
2015-06-27T19:40:09Z jasom: ideally redirect outputs as well though
2015-06-27T19:40:38Z DeadTrickster: what about changing uid gid
2015-06-27T19:41:51Z jasom didn't know sb-daemonize did that
2015-06-27T19:42:10Z Shinmera: I just use `screen -S thing -d -m sbcl --load start.lisp`
2015-06-27T19:42:12Z DeadTrickster: snf stdout/err redirction
2015-06-27T19:42:22Z Shinmera: With a `su` before that if I need to switch users.
2015-06-27T19:42:23Z dim: p_l: well it's nice to just be able to start your own CL image and see it go to the background and answer http input; I use daemon for that as in pgcharts
2015-06-27T19:43:09Z DeadTrickster: anyway we are bulding deb packages for that I think screen-like stuff will look strange here
2015-06-27T19:43:46Z dim: DeadTrickster: see https://github.com/dimitri/pgcharts for an implementation of Unix daemon in CL
2015-06-27T19:43:50Z jasom: DeadTrickster: I use daemontools for process monitoring which handles all of this, so I'm not sure how your init system does it
2015-06-27T19:44:12Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgcharts/blob/master/src/pgcharts.lisp#L98 etc
2015-06-27T19:44:16Z DeadTrickster: we are using monit, works just ok
2015-06-27T19:44:43Z DeadTrickster: also ELB ok too
2015-06-27T19:45:00Z jasom: DeadTrickster: monit lets you set uid/gid
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2015-06-27T19:45:12Z jasom: so unless you need to start as root and drop privs, you should be fine
2015-06-27T19:46:14Z jasom: but you can just put sb-daemonize into local-packages if you're using quicklisp
2015-06-27T19:46:41Z jasom: If it does what you want, then that's fine.  Since I use daemontools, I'm usually more concerned about *preventing* programs from daemonizing :)
2015-06-27T19:46:56Z dim: yeah or daemon which is portable
2015-06-27T19:47:13Z DeadTrickster: jasom, when your system reboot you relying completely on monitoring tools to do services startup?
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2015-06-27T19:47:54Z jasom: DeadTrickster: for the services I care about, yes.  I have an init script that kicks of the service monitoring.
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2015-06-27T19:48:06Z DeadTrickster: a-ha
2015-06-27T19:48:09Z DeadTrickster: got ya
2015-06-27T19:48:53Z DeadTrickster: but this can introduce delays right? like monitoring tool should go through a couple of cycles or something like that?
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2015-06-27T19:49:34Z jasom: DeadTrickster: daemon tools has everything up in under a second
2015-06-27T19:49:44Z jasom: and this only happens on reboot, which takes minutes
2015-06-27T19:49:47Z DeadTrickster: looks like I should try it
2015-06-27T19:49:53Z jasom: it has its quirks
2015-06-27T19:50:27Z nyef: DeadTrickster: Typically, if the tools are monitoring for "is there a process here" as a first-line test, even before "is anything listening on this service channel", it should come up quickly.
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2015-06-27T19:50:49Z DeadTrickster: you introduced different angle to me, thanks
2015-06-27T19:51:29Z jasom: I actually wrote an OpenRC wrapper for daemontools, and fooled around with a VM where the only thing started by inittab is daemontools.
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2015-06-27T19:52:59Z jasom: but that's getting off-topic
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2015-06-27T19:53:41Z jasom: DeadTrickster: If you like monit, I'd stay with that rather than switching to daemontools.  If it ain't broke...
2015-06-27T19:54:37Z DeadTrickster: yeah, what about Docker btw? is it relevant for say sbcl dumps?
2015-06-27T19:55:23Z nyef: At one point I was using an init script that fired off a screen session that held an SBCL instance that acted like a daemon. Managed its own pidfile, handled signals for "clean up and die" and "restart", you could attach to the screen and use the REPL, if you quit out of the REPL it would treat it as a restart.
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2015-06-27T19:56:11Z nyef: In retrospect, quite overbuilt for what we needed at the time, and then didn't support what we ended up needing to do to scale out.
2015-06-27T19:57:35Z dim: well those days systemd is going to be the default, and it knows how to care about system and per-user services, so I would sure have a look into that first
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2015-06-27T19:57:55Z nyef would far prefer to avoid systemd.
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2015-06-27T19:58:13Z dim: my take: it's too late to even bother about preferences, it's there.
2015-06-27T19:58:35Z nyef: If that were true, we'd all still be running windows.
2015-06-27T19:58:54Z dim: nope, because when they began some people knew unix was better
2015-06-27T19:59:23Z dim: unix design stoped evolving about 40 years ago right? and what is linux other than a grand-dad unix running on modern hardware?
2015-06-27T19:59:48Z dim: I know I'm exagerating some, linux got /proc from Plan9
2015-06-27T19:59:48Z nyef: Unix design stopped evolving in 1975? You must be joking!
2015-06-27T19:59:49Z dim: but still
2015-06-27T20:00:53Z dim: I think I'm saying I don't care too much about systemd or something else there, just have your service registered and managed by whatever the system is providing you with to do that
2015-06-27T20:01:12Z nyef: Okay, that's fair.
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2015-06-27T20:01:40Z dim: well maybe it's the attitude of someone who's seldom running his own software but rather shipping binaries and sometimes sources to people who just want the thing to work without ever wanting to hack on it
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2015-06-27T20:01:52Z nyef: But I'm saying is, have a bit of care with what you run as an underlying system.
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2015-06-27T20:02:17Z dim: next time I have this luxury I will study FreeBSD and bitrig first
2015-06-27T20:02:28Z nyef: And I'm coming from a perspective of someone who has to keep a fairly complex multi-node system up and running.
2015-06-27T20:02:31Z dim: and then IllumOS or OmniOS
2015-06-27T20:02:53Z dim: yeah I've not been doing admin-like job in a long while, it shows ;-)
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2015-06-27T20:08:42Z aeth: Let's say I use a library with 100 functions, but only actually use at most 3 functions from that library. In CL, does that cause performance problems?
2015-06-27T20:09:34Z aeth: The whole library has to be available for things like the REPL, right?
2015-06-27T20:11:44Z nyef: aeth: Does it cause problems with C DLLs/DSOs/DYLIBs?
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2015-06-27T20:14:50Z |3b|: just 97 (normal/sane) functions probably won't affect much, and having a bunch of extra copies of those 3 functions from trying to avoid the library would be just as bad (or worse if they are called a lot and the duplication leads to bad cache use)
2015-06-27T20:15:03Z aeth: nyef: C is compiled-only so they can probably make optimizations that CL cannot assume.
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2015-06-27T20:16:19Z aeth: |3b|: good point
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2015-06-27T20:18:30Z aeth: |3b|: So if every library writes their own read-in-a-string function that are roughly identical, and there are lots of libraries doing this, this is worse than if every library used e.g. alexandria? Is that what you mean?
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2015-06-27T20:18:42Z |3b|: right
2015-06-27T20:18:55Z aeth: So those libraries are avoiding overhead, but because they're used together, they're *creating* it.
2015-06-27T20:19:11Z |3b|: particularly since a bunch of them probably load alexandria as an indirect dependency anyway
2015-06-27T20:19:14Z aeth: yes
2015-06-27T20:19:43Z aeth: So is it a good idea to use alexandria for things that are in alexandria?
2015-06-27T20:19:59Z |3b| would say so
2015-06-27T20:20:00Z aeth: Especially considering any complicated program is probably going to call alexandria anyway
2015-06-27T20:20:04Z aeth: through a library
2015-06-27T20:21:03Z aeth: So I guess the higher up a library in here, the more likely it's *already* being used by a library's library. http://blog.quicklisp.org/2015/06/may-2015-download-stats.html
2015-06-27T20:21:30Z |3b| does lots of stuff with cffi, and cffi depends on alexandria, so i pretty much always have it loaded anyway
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2015-06-27T20:22:35Z aeth: Interesting, I guess I didn't think about it this way because I was imagining a trivial program with a huge library.
2015-06-27T20:22:54Z |3b|: also, 3 turns into 4 turns into 5 etc
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2015-06-27T20:24:10Z |3b|: and stuff in a library gets fixed once, while stuff reimplemented every time probably averages quite a bit less than once (or quite a bit more, depending on how you count) :p
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2015-06-27T20:39:34Z aeth: |3b|: so something that's called by tons of libraries and has no or few dependencies is basically as good as :cl to use?
2015-06-27T20:39:37Z aeth: e.g. alexandria
2015-06-27T20:42:24Z Petit_Dejeuner: go for it
2015-06-27T20:43:11Z Petit_Dejeuner: You can always go back and remove it if you change your mind.
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2015-06-27T20:57:51Z pjb: aeth: this is dangerous thinking.  This leads you to write self sufficient libraries, that replicate code from other libraries!
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2015-06-27T21:04:44Z aeth: Is it better to write lots of trivial READ-FOO-DATA functions for all foo that I need to read, or is it better to write a READ-DATA with an extra argument that tells it what type of foo it is?
2015-06-27T21:05:32Z aeth: so e.g. (read-data 'string path) would call read-file-into-string from alexandria, sort of like MAP
2015-06-27T21:06:57Z aeth: I could even use one level of recursion to permit this to return more complicated things, like (read-data 'log path) would call (read-data 'sexp path) which would load in a file as an s-expression and then treat it like a log file
2015-06-27T21:07:32Z aeth: This program requires a *lot* of different kinds of files.
2015-06-27T21:07:49Z nyef: Congratulations, you've just re-invented CLIM's ACCEPT.
2015-06-27T21:07:52Z aeth: oops, I guess it would be (read-data :log path)
2015-06-27T21:08:16Z aeth: nyef: good if I reinvented something CLIM does because there's not a complete CLIM
2015-06-27T21:08:36Z aeth: I can then pull this out of my game engine, put this in a common library, and use this for a CLIM
2015-06-27T21:09:30Z nyef is having trouble coming up with a sufficiently snarky response.
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2015-06-27T21:15:17Z nyef: If you want a "complete" CLIM, go use one of the commercial implementations.
2015-06-27T21:15:26Z nyef: ... and pay quite a bit for it.
2015-06-27T21:15:46Z |3b|: passing the type as an argument makes it easier to put the type in a variable
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2015-06-27T21:18:40Z aeth: nyef: good idea, I can just buy a commercial CLIM and a commercial game engine and not have to make any libraries. Or I could even just buy commercial software and not have to program at all. /s
2015-06-27T21:18:59Z Bike: sounds like a good plan to me
2015-06-27T21:19:25Z Petit_Dejeuner: Why doesn't everyone just buy software?
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2015-06-27T21:28:15Z DeadTrickster: If I want to upgrade sbcl from say 1.0.something to the latest does it make sense if I build it twice? first with all sbcl and second with new so all optimizations applied?
2015-06-27T21:28:34Z DeadTrickster: all sbcl/old sbcl
2015-06-27T21:29:23Z jackdaniel: I think sbcl builds compiler first, and then it builds itself again with all the goodies
2015-06-27T21:29:32Z jackdaniel: so it can be bootstrapped with different lisp
2015-06-27T21:29:35Z nyef: DeadTrickster: The SBCL build process is a double-build. The first one builds a latest-and-greatest cross-compiler on whatever host lisp is being used, the second uses that cross-compiler to build the latest-and-greatest SBCL.
2015-06-27T21:30:26Z nyef: It drastically simplifies cross-compiling from a different host lisp or machine architecture, makes certain changes a lot simpler to deploy, and so on.
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2015-06-27T21:30:38Z jackdaniel: and heals wounds
2015-06-27T21:31:14Z DeadTrickster: yeah I remember that stuff about simplifying builds and bootstrapping as a reasons for forking from cmucl
2015-06-27T21:31:34Z nyef: Yes, it's harder (not impossible, but harder) for a self-replicating compiler bug to survive that kind of double-compilation.
2015-06-27T21:31:44Z nyef: (Or other bug in the image.)
2015-06-27T21:31:44Z DeadTrickster: ok so there is no need to recompile twice by hands it does almost the same by design
2015-06-27T21:32:15Z k-stz: nyef: now I finally understand the "sanely bootstraple common lisp" paper
2015-06-27T21:32:42Z nyef: Admittedly, the cross-compiler does less optimization than the target system, but that's more to do with type representation limitations of an arbitrary host lisp. If you're really curious look for "cross-float-infinity-kludge" in the SBCL sources.
2015-06-27T21:34:41Z DeadTrickster: 2006-05-30 11:12:30 +0200	<nyef>	I'm really beginning to dislike CROSS-FLOAT-INFINITY-KLUDGE.
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2015-06-27T21:34:47Z DeadTrickster: lol
2015-06-27T21:35:00Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2015-06-27T21:35:31Z DeadTrickster: til #lisp existed in 2006
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2015-06-27T21:37:36Z Shinmera: #lisp has existed far longer than that
2015-06-27T21:38:11Z DeadTrickster: also since we already talking about sbcl building... why there so many notes about not being able to optimize (like forced to do GENERIC-* (cost 30)) messages?
2015-06-27T21:38:15Z nyef: DeadTrickster: Note what I was hacking on at the time, too. d-:
2015-06-27T21:38:50Z nyef: DeadTrickster: Often, that's because it's compiling something that HAS TO work with completely untyped or substantially-untyped numbers.
2015-06-27T21:39:29Z nyef: But the optimization settings were set high enough that the compiler makes notes of where it could do better if it had more information about what was going on.
2015-06-27T21:39:39Z DeadTrickster: actually lots of strange notes - unable to associate +/+ of constants due to type uncertainty
2015-06-27T21:40:12Z DeadTrickster: or forced ash fulll cals
2015-06-27T21:40:14Z nyef: Hrm. That might be the cross-float-inifinty-kludge.
2015-06-27T21:40:19Z DeadTrickster: haha
2015-06-27T21:40:40Z nyef: And the kicker is that it's only really broken for floaty things, not for integers. /-:
2015-06-27T21:41:36Z DeadTrickster: http://chrisdone.com:10001/browse/lisp?events_page=95346
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2015-06-27T21:42:28Z DeadTrickster: you complained about floor not being inlined
2015-06-27T21:42:40Z DeadTrickster: so looks like it is a neat feature
2015-06-27T21:42:58Z DeadTrickster: nothing to worry about
2015-06-27T21:43:51Z nyef: Heh. I'm talking to frodef there, too. How apt, given what I was working on. (-:
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2015-06-27T21:46:36Z a201501: Hello, Is there a way to call quickproject:make-project and not have it error if "projectname.lisp" exists on path, and/or README.txt ?
2015-06-27T21:46:48Z a201501: maybe something like :allow-files t
2015-06-27T21:46:53Z a201501: or something like that
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2015-06-27T21:47:18Z a201501: basically I would like to call make-project to create the files that do not already exists on a target directory
2015-06-27T21:47:32Z a201501: but do not touch, or complain about what is already there
2015-06-27T21:47:36Z nyef: That... sounds like a Xach question. Xach?
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2015-06-27T21:47:52Z a201501: sort of to bring an existing project into "compliance"
2015-06-27T21:48:10Z XachX: Not without writing the capability yourself
2015-06-27T21:48:32Z a201501: ok, cool. Thanks
2015-06-27T21:49:47Z nyef: DeadTrickster: If you want to see the code I was working on at the time, it's in http://lisphacker.com/temp/lispos/os-0.9.14-m3.patch though that alone won't be enough to run it.
2015-06-27T21:51:19Z DeadTrickster: nyef, will take a look  thanks
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2015-06-27T21:51:54Z DeadTrickster: nyef, what you were trying to do?
2015-06-27T21:52:05Z nyef: The pathname is a bit of a clue.
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2015-06-27T21:53:27Z pjb: aeth: I like type-tagged data.  Have a syntax that allows you to know what type you're reading without having to supply it to the reading function.
2015-06-27T21:53:43Z pjb: aeth: of course, sometimes the file format is imposed.
2015-06-27T21:54:13Z nyef: pjb: And sometimes you want to impose more semantics over an existing format.
2015-06-27T21:54:23Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner: because we programmers would (and do) write it even if not paid.
2015-06-27T21:54:53Z nyef: "This is JSON input, but then we expect these fields, and that they have this sort of data in them, and we want the result packaged up as THIS sort of object..."
2015-06-27T21:55:10Z pjb: But JSON is not a type-tagged format :-(
2015-06-27T21:55:44Z nyef: Sure it is! It's just that the type system is very limited.
2015-06-27T21:55:51Z pjb: Well, it is, but with a restricted type ontology.  You could just post-process it.
2015-06-27T21:56:05Z jasom: also the types don't map well to lisp types
2015-06-27T21:56:23Z pjb: After all, even #(1 2 3) may read a list, before allocating a vector.
2015-06-27T21:56:28Z nyef: Right, and as soon as you post-process it you're right back at passing in a description of what you're looking for, either explicitly or implicitly.
2015-06-27T21:56:44Z aeth: jasom: Don't worry, in the future JavaScript programmers will complain about having to read some data format based on s-expressions into JavaScript.
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2015-06-27T21:58:06Z pjb: nyef: Doesn't sbcl already compare the output of both compilers?
2015-06-27T21:58:12Z jasom: aeth: at least part of the problem is that json libraries tend to parse lists into alists and null into nil and false into nil, so 4 json types into one lisp type
2015-06-27T21:58:32Z jasom: er arrays into lists and objects into alists
2015-06-27T21:58:58Z nyef: pjb: What? Why? They compile different code.
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2015-06-27T21:59:04Z pjb: You should not consider JSON as a serialization/deserialization format for lisp data structures.
2015-06-27T21:59:15Z jasom: pjb: but it is a data-interchange format
2015-06-27T21:59:45Z pjb: nyef: oh, right, so they would have to compare the output of the definite compiler, compiled by the bootstrap compiler, and by itself.
2015-06-27T21:59:53Z TMitTB: Does Emacs Lisp have anything in common with Common Lisp?
2015-06-27T22:00:01Z pjb: TMitTB: they're both lisp-2.
2015-06-27T22:00:04Z aeth: TMitTB: a common origin
2015-06-27T22:00:14Z nyef: I consider lisp data structures as a reification of the objects in a serial JSON stream.
2015-06-27T22:00:16Z aeth: but they departed a long time ago
2015-06-27T22:00:19Z pjb: TMitTB: it is possible to write code that works on both. Have a look at (intersection common-lisp emacs-lisp scheme) http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/intersection-r5rs-common-lisp-emacs-lisp/
2015-06-27T22:00:21Z Petit_Dejeuner: TMitTB, Some similar function names.
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2015-06-27T22:00:56Z pjb: TMitTB: (more so since emacs 24 has lexical binding; before that it was quite hard).
2015-06-27T22:00:57Z jasom: TMitTB: RMS was very familiar with common lisp when he wrote elisp.  Of course this was long enough ago that he considered lexical binding to be too newfangled.
2015-06-27T22:01:10Z kristof: That's not true.
2015-06-27T22:01:29Z kristof: RMS was familiar with Scheme when he wrote elisp and Common Lisp was not yet around.
2015-06-27T22:01:31Z pjb: CL started in 1984, IIRC. GNU emacs started in 1982 or 1983.
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2015-06-27T22:02:13Z TMitTB: when did lexical binding in emacs showed up?
2015-06-27T22:02:31Z kristof: The only non-Scheme-y Lisp that RMS would have had regular interaction with was 1) Maclisp and 2) whatever lisp they used for low level programming in CADR
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2015-06-27T22:03:58Z pjb: TMitTB: emacs 24.
2015-06-27T22:04:00Z jasom: oh, I was wrong then.  I thought it was mid 80s
2015-06-27T22:04:27Z pjb: kristof: I'd hope he had fun with Zeta Lisp too?
2015-06-27T22:05:06Z kristof: pjb: Oh! I think I meant zeta lisp when I said maclisp.
2015-06-27T22:05:20Z TMitTB: so, today, if i want to write an extension to GNU Emacs, would it be effective to use CL?  Or would it run crappy?
2015-06-27T22:05:51Z kristof: TMitTB: You'd use elisp, because emacs is not written in CL
2015-06-27T22:06:03Z kristof: There is a portability library for cl, though
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2015-06-27T22:07:18Z TMitTB: i see
2015-06-27T22:07:44Z TMitTB: pjb: thanks for url
2015-06-27T22:07:51Z abbe: hi
2015-06-27T22:07:58Z jackdaniel: metalisp sounds cozy ;)
2015-06-27T22:08:00Z jackdaniel: o/ abbe
2015-06-27T22:08:02Z pjb: TMitTB: IMO, you would be well advised to learn Common Lisp, because that will make you a better emacs lisp programmer, than if you learn only emacs hacking.
2015-06-27T22:08:13Z abbe: hi jackdaniel!
2015-06-27T22:08:44Z TMitTB: pjb: cool
2015-06-27T22:09:02Z pjb: TMitTB: there's a lot of emacs lisp code (even in GNU emacs itself) that is not that well written IMO.  Notably, several page long functions, functions named f that call f1 that call f2 at the end (just to "split" them), etc.
2015-06-27T22:09:03Z abbe: wondering if anyone has any ideas on the recommended way to push a path to cffi:*foreign-library-directories*, so all cffi dependent packages work without having to manually edit their files ?
2015-06-27T22:09:24Z pjb: TMitTB: so reading CL code will give you better hints of good lisp style than emacs lisp code, in general.
2015-06-27T22:09:32Z abbe: e.g. I'm on FreeBSD and most of software is installed in `/usr/local' prefix
2015-06-27T22:09:56Z jackdaniel: abbe: you could load cffi in your implementation rc file, and then push path
2015-06-27T22:09:59Z pjb: abbe: (ql:quickload :cffi) (push #P"/some/lib/path/" cffi:*foreign-library-directories*) (ql;quickload :dependent-package)
2015-06-27T22:10:14Z pjb: s/;/:/
2015-06-27T22:10:40Z abbe: is there anything like (eval-after-load "cffi" ...) ?
2015-06-27T22:10:52Z TMitTB: pjb: thanks for clues
2015-06-27T22:11:29Z pjb: abbe: (defmethod asdf:oos ((op (eql 'asdf:load-op)) (sys (eql :cffi))) …)
2015-06-27T22:11:40Z abbe: oh!
2015-06-27T22:11:47Z abbe: interesting :)
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2015-06-27T22:12:01Z abbe: thanks jackdaniel and pjb
2015-06-27T22:12:04Z pjb: + :after
2015-06-27T22:12:08Z jackdaniel: yw
2015-06-27T22:12:10Z jackdaniel: gn all o/
2015-06-27T22:12:39Z pjb: abbe: unfortunately, there is no way to do (sys (equal "cffi")) so you'd have to do (defmethod asdf:oos :after ((op (eql 'asdf:load-op)) (sys t)) (cond ((string-equal "cffi" sys) …) (…)))
2015-06-27T22:13:45Z abbe: oh, okay. thanks for the hint. I hope I don't end up breaking anything else.
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2015-06-27T22:18:20Z aeth: What's the pathname library to use? cl-fad?
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2015-06-27T22:18:57Z Shinmera: uiop.
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2015-06-27T22:19:27Z aeth: uiop isn't on http://blog.quicklisp.org/2015/06/may-2015-download-stats.html
2015-06-27T22:19:35Z Shinmera: Cause it's part of asdf
2015-06-27T22:19:38Z aeth: ah
2015-06-27T22:19:54Z aeth: I guess they didn't like jkl;?
2015-06-27T22:20:05Z aeth: Because I think Lisp would've allowed jkl;
2015-06-27T22:20:14Z aeth: oh wait that's comment
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2015-06-27T22:20:16Z nyef: aeth: The semicolon is the line-comment character, yes.
2015-06-27T22:20:24Z nyef: And xcvb was already taken.
2015-06-27T22:20:36Z nyef: (Or did it get taken afterwards?)
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2015-06-27T22:20:41Z aeth: I forgot about line comments because I don't use them, for some reason my brain thought ";;" is comment
2015-06-27T22:21:07Z nyef: Various numbers of consecutive semicolons are used to indicate different sorts of comment.
2015-06-27T22:21:12Z aeth: yes
2015-06-27T22:21:14Z nyef: But that's a social construct.
2015-06-27T22:22:52Z aeth runs a quick script to convert all comments starts from ";;", ";;;", and ";;;;" to ";-)"
2015-06-27T22:22:55Z aeth: New social construct! :-p
2015-06-27T22:23:04Z pjb: aeth: sure. |JKL;|:something or jkl\;:something
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2015-06-27T22:24:30Z aeth: pjb: great, thanks
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2015-06-27T22:45:57Z abbe: seems like asdf:oos is not a generic function
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2015-06-27T22:50:41Z Bike: hm, i have (let ((x (make-array ...)) (y (make-array ...))), and if i rotatef between them sbcl loses track of their element types. i didn't expect that.
2015-06-27T22:52:55Z aeth: If I have to modify a keyword, do I use SYMBOL-NAME on it and then (intern foo :keyword) or is Google lying to me?
2015-06-27T22:53:11Z Bike: Modify?
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2015-06-27T22:54:42Z Bike: (intern (symbol-name some-keyword) :keyword) is the same as some-keyword, though, other than the rube goldberg ness
2015-06-27T22:54:43Z aeth: In this case, truncate: (intern (subseq (symbol-name :foo-bar-baz) 0 7) :keyword)
2015-06-27T22:54:58Z Bike: oh.
2015-06-27T22:55:11Z Bike: yeah, that's what you'd do then. that's not modification, though, it's making a new keyword based on an old one.
2015-06-27T22:55:34Z aeth: ok, but Lisps slightly dislike modifying anyway
2015-06-27T22:55:45Z aeth: so it's not modifying, it's returning something that's changed
2015-06-27T22:55:53Z Bike: i just mean what you said was kind of confusing, because you can't modify keywords.
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2015-06-27T22:56:07Z Bike: anyway, also, if you know the symbol's already been interned you should use find-symbol instead.
2015-06-27T22:56:31Z Bike: e.g. if you have :foo-bar somewhere in your code already
2015-06-27T22:56:56Z aeth: ok so Google *was* lying to me after all
2015-06-27T22:57:04Z aeth: bad Google
2015-06-27T22:57:47Z scymtym: Bike: can you give an example of the array element-type thing?
2015-06-27T22:58:09Z Bike: lemme try to reduce it...
2015-06-27T22:59:34Z scymtym: does it lose track in the ARRAY-ELEMENT-TYPE-sense or in the VARIABLE-INFORMATION-sense?
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2015-06-27T22:59:49Z Bike: on, the latter. for optimization.
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2015-06-27T23:01:04Z scymtym: ok, that may be expected due to assignment in ROTATEF, but i'm not sure
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2015-06-27T23:04:30Z pjb: abbe: there must be some internal generic function called by asdf:oos.
2015-06-27T23:04:46Z pjb: abbe: check asdf manual.
2015-06-27T23:05:47Z abbe: well, manual says it's generic function, but asdf v 3.1.3 (shipped with sbcl) seems to have (defun* oos ...)
2015-06-27T23:06:13Z Bike: this reduced case doesn't make any sense. egh.
2015-06-27T23:06:50Z Bike: oos is operate now
2015-06-27T23:07:10Z abbe: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Operations.html#Operations
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2015-06-27T23:08:09Z Bike: just specialize on operate, and maybe complain about the manual
2015-06-27T23:08:45Z abbe: good idea
2015-06-27T23:09:18Z Bike: scymtym: well the reduced function doesn't make any sense, but if you take out the #+(or) you stop getting optimization notes about unknown array element types http://paste.lisp.org/display/150723
2015-06-27T23:10:20Z scymtym: Bike: thanks, i will have a look. not that i will be able to fix something like that.
2015-06-27T23:10:51Z Bike: i can get around it by putting in a declartion, it's no big deal :) which is why i mentioned it here instead of a bug report or #sbcl
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2015-06-27T23:36:09Z abbe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/150724 works now. Thanks, Bike!
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2015-06-27T23:42:10Z Bike: that specialization might cause issues...
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2015-06-27T23:43:26Z Bike: scymtym: by the way, what's with float-to-pointer coercions and all? i figured if i had (setf (aref foo ...) (bar ...)) where foo is a specialized array and bar is a local function returning the right type it wouldn't have to box, but i guess it does? if i'm understanding the notes right
2015-06-27T23:44:09Z abbe: yeah, 'cffi' package not defined in ccl :/
2015-06-27T23:44:10Z Bike: actually, easier example is having (bar (aref foo ...))
2015-06-27T23:44:18Z abbe: so probably have to use eval or something
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2015-06-27T23:56:48Z scymtym: Bike: not sure, but i think the TYPE-CHECK-ERROR/C VOP needs the datum unboxed. the code seems to only be executed in case of type errors. reducing safety helps.
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2015-06-28T00:00:52Z Bike: hm, safety 0 doesn't do anything...
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2015-06-28T00:03:46Z scymtym: it made the "doing signed word to integer coercion" notes for the MAKE-ARRAY forms in your example disappear for me
2015-06-28T00:04:22Z scymtym: oh, i see now, you were talking about /float/-to-pointer coercions, sorry
2015-06-28T00:04:54Z Bike: yeah, in the unreduced function i have a local function. which i guess i should inline anyway, now that i think about it
2015-06-28T00:05:23Z Bike: oh, that gets me more notes. sweet.
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2015-06-28T00:09:09Z Bike: and apparently local functions need type declarations for arguments in the body instead of in the ftype, if they're inlined. dealing with compilers is weird
2015-06-28T00:18:02Z spyrosoft: https://leanpub.com/lisphackers
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2015-06-28T00:25:43Z Xach: Great book and what a charming first interview!
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2015-06-28T00:32:33Z spyrosoft: There are at least two shoutouts for The UNIX-HATERS Handbook in it. Really makes me long for a LispM.
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2015-06-28T00:36:33Z jasom: grr, maphash returns nil
2015-06-28T00:36:39Z jasom: I always forget that
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2015-06-28T01:05:06Z devon: How would I portably create a symlink in common lisp?
2015-06-28T01:05:14Z spyrosoft: https://github.com/google/lisp-koans
2015-06-28T01:05:45Z spyrosoft: devon: not related
2015-06-28T01:06:21Z nyef: devon: You don't: Not all host systems support symlinks.
2015-06-28T01:06:54Z devon: nyef: very funny
2015-06-28T01:07:06Z nyef isn't joking.
2015-06-28T01:07:14Z devon: lol
2015-06-28T01:07:26Z nyef: minion: Advice on portable?
2015-06-28T01:07:26Z minion: #12017: It doesn't need to be portable, it just needs to work on your system.
2015-06-28T01:07:43Z nyef: Hrm...
2015-06-28T01:07:48Z nyef: minion: Advice on everything?
2015-06-28T01:07:48Z minion: You can't expect automated advice for everything.
2015-06-28T01:07:57Z nyef: Seems like sound advice to me. (-:
2015-06-28T01:08:05Z Bike: got something to run 24 times faster by declaring some things double floats. don't even need an optimize. arithmetic is hard, huh
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2015-06-28T01:09:26Z spyrosoft: wow, 24 times is a lot.
2015-06-28T01:09:33Z nyef: Bike: My initial CL optimization problem involved declaring integer types, inlining, doing explicit boxing, refactoring to use sub-fixnum arithmetic where possible, upgrading to an implementation that supported modular arithmetic, and so on. Knocked a ten-plus hour runtime down to less than a minute.
2015-06-28T01:09:43Z Somnasper: Could someone help me figure out how to get this running in Windows? https://chriskohlhepp.wordpress.com/embedding-lisp-in-cplusplus-a-recipe/
2015-06-28T01:10:08Z Bike: wow man, way to beat me by an order of magnitude :( (but yeah, cool)
2015-06-28T01:10:15Z Somnasper: I've got g++ but I have no idea what the equivalents of those specifications should be for a Windows command line
2015-06-28T01:11:23Z nyef: Bike: Had I known at the time what I was doing, it'd never have hit a ten hour runtime.
2015-06-28T01:11:35Z nyef: Also, it took weeks to get it to that point.
2015-06-28T01:12:05Z Bike: Somnasper: is this cygwin? i think cygwin fakes the / hierarchy?
2015-06-28T01:13:25Z Somnasper: Bike: the command in question is
2015-06-28T01:13:26Z Somnasper: g++ -std=c++11 main.cpp -I/usr/local/include -L/usr/local/lib -lecl -stdlib=libstdc++
2015-06-28T01:14:01Z Somnasper: Bike: what would the equivalent of the library ref be? I only have ecl directory
2015-06-28T01:15:21Z Bike: the -L should be whatever has, uh, ecl.dll or whatever it is.
2015-06-28T01:15:52Z Somnasper: oohhh okay, I'll try that, thanks!
2015-06-28T01:18:02Z spyrosoft: Do any of you use an optimized keyboard layout (Colemak, Dvorak, etc.)? I'm curious if Common Lisp draws in the same type of person.
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2015-06-28T01:19:44Z Somnasper: nvm, I have no idea what that would be :(
2015-06-28T01:19:53Z Somnasper: does anyone have experience with ECL?
2015-06-28T01:20:10Z Bike: this sounds more like an issue with familiarity with windows g++ than familiarity with ecl
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2015-06-28T01:24:35Z Somnasper: yeah . . .
2015-06-28T01:24:43Z Somnasper: nvm think I found what I need
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2015-06-28T01:36:39Z Somnasper: Lispers really hate Windows huh
2015-06-28T01:37:17Z Somnasper: This has been a startling change of affairs from the gamer community "Windows or gtfo"
2015-06-28T01:37:56Z Bike: i don't hate it, i just don't use it much
2015-06-28T01:38:38Z nyef: Oh, what the hell. DRAW-RECTANGLE and DRAW-RECTANGLE* take a FILLED parameter, but DRAW-RECTANGLES, DRAW-RECTANGLES*, MEDIUM-DRAW-RECTANGLE, and MEDIUM-DRAW-RECTANGLE* don't?
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2015-06-28T01:39:14Z nyef: Some part of me would love to meet the man in charge of editing this spec and shake him warmly by the throat.
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2015-06-28T02:00:50Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-06-28T02:01:57Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-06-28T02:03:08Z nyef is finishing up some loose ends, but has most of the drawing infrastructure at least roughed in.
2015-06-28T02:03:22Z beach: Congratulations!
2015-06-28T02:03:29Z nyef: Thanks.
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2015-06-28T02:04:24Z nyef: I get the impression that if I were to spend a solid week hacking on it, I could get the overall system to a minimally-usable state.
2015-06-28T02:04:37Z Bike: anyone know a plotter i can use without too much thinking? or should i just throw shit at gnuplot?
2015-06-28T02:05:05Z beach: nyef: At least that gives an idea of the amount of effort that remains.
2015-06-28T02:05:06Z nyef: Throwing shit at gnuplot sounds like something you can do without too much thinking. Does that count?
2015-06-28T02:05:26Z nyef: beach: Possibly. Or I could be well off-base.
2015-06-28T02:05:41Z beach: nyef: Fair enough.
2015-06-28T02:06:16Z Bike: well, i might have to figure out how to use pipes, or something...
2015-06-28T02:06:33Z nyef: I'm also starting to try and think of what I can do to maintain my github streak when I'm ready to take a break from nq-clim.
2015-06-28T02:07:05Z beach: nyef: Let me know if you need ideas. :)
2015-06-28T02:07:41Z nyef: Heh. One of my ideas was a Forth implementation in lisp.
2015-06-28T02:08:25Z nyef: Justification: If we write a LispOS, we'll need a bootloader. And I have a Forth cross-compiler that might work for that, but we'd need a host environment that would run in the LispOS...
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2015-06-28T02:08:51Z beach: I like it.
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2015-06-28T02:13:54Z nyef: Okay, the easiest milestone on my list to hit is to get the last use of xlib for drawing something out of rendering_1.
2015-06-28T02:14:43Z nyef: Which will require colors, indirect ink, and a handful of medium properties.
2015-06-28T02:14:50Z beach: Are you planning to create X windows for each mirrored sheet, or just a single X window?
2015-06-28T02:15:39Z nyef: I think that, given that it's X and therefore there is no native toolkit, it will be just the one toplevel window for each frame.
2015-06-28T02:16:03Z beach: Good! :)
2015-06-28T02:16:54Z nyef: Though I will probably define a mirrored-sheet to embed as a gadget or something as a test to make sure that the whole thing actually works.
2015-06-28T02:22:12Z beach: Isn't that an orthogonal issue?
2015-06-28T02:23:16Z beach: I mean, I thought we agreed that mirrored-sheet is a sheet that MIGHT have a mirror.
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2015-06-28T02:23:25Z nyef: No, no...
2015-06-28T02:23:30Z papachan: hi
2015-06-28T02:23:30Z minion: papachan, memo from pjb: you need to provide a test that put your objects in the same equivalence class! (remove-duplicates '((2 2 2) (2 2 3) (2 3 3)) :test (lambda (a b) (and (subsetp a b) (subsetp b a)))) --> ((2 2 2) (2 3 3))
2015-06-28T02:23:42Z nyef: That was my interpretation in something like September, with insufficient study of the spec.
2015-06-28T02:23:42Z papachan: minion, cool thanks
2015-06-28T02:23:42Z minion: indeed, cool thanks
2015-06-28T02:23:54Z beach: nyef: Hmm, OK.
2015-06-28T02:24:02Z nyef: In December/January I came to the conclusion that it MUST be mirrored when grafted.
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2015-06-28T02:24:41Z beach: That is a very unfortunate interpretation though.  Because it means that the way sheets are defined depends on the backend.
2015-06-28T02:24:51Z nyef: Why so?
2015-06-28T02:25:26Z nyef: MIRRORED-SHEET-MIXIN is for sheets that are directly mirrored. Any other sheet can still have a mirror, but it won't be a direct mirror.
2015-06-28T02:25:31Z beach: If I define (say) pane to be a subclass of mirrored-sheet-mixin (or whatever it's called) and I have a backend that can only create a top-level window, then I am toast.
2015-06-28T02:25:44Z nyef: Yeah, you wouldn't do that.
2015-06-28T02:26:02Z nyef: The only reason to involve MIRRORED-SHEET-MIXIN is if you need a host window specifically for that sheet.
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2015-06-28T02:26:22Z beach: So then, no sheet must be a subclass of mirrored-sheet-mixin, and therefore the class is useless.
2015-06-28T02:26:43Z nyef: Which, with few exceptions, means a frame-toplevel-sheet, or a "native" widget using the adaptive toolkit.
2015-06-28T02:26:57Z beach: Fair enough.
2015-06-28T02:27:54Z nyef: Basically, the backends would use it in a few places, and if you needed to do something backend-specific you might use it.
2015-06-28T02:28:57Z beach: So only panes and gadgets from a foreign toolkit would have mirrored-sheet-mixin as a superclass.
2015-06-28T02:29:04Z nyef: But suppose I'm on a windows system, or using a gtk backend, or similar. The scroll-bar abstract pane class would get mapped to a subclass of mirrored-sheet-mixin, and the mirror would be the actual scrollbar object.
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2015-06-28T02:29:22Z beach: I understand.
2015-06-28T02:29:37Z nyef: Something similar might happen for an embedded OpenGL pane, for example.
2015-06-28T02:30:04Z beach: Yeah, OK.
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2015-06-28T02:31:16Z beach: So, then, I *should* start doing what you stopped me from doing back then, i.e., remove MIRRORED-SHEET-MIXIN as a superclass from most panes in McCLIM.
2015-06-28T02:31:27Z nyef: Yes.
2015-06-28T02:31:53Z beach: Excellent!  Now I have my GitHub streak secured for the foreseeable future as well. :)
2015-06-28T02:32:20Z beach doesn't really need that, given the amount of work on SICL. 
2015-06-28T02:32:25Z nyef: I also determined that MIRRORED-SHEET-MIXIN should REALIZE-MIRROR when grafted, and CREATE-SEVEN-YEARS-BAD-LUCK when degrafted.
2015-06-28T02:32:44Z beach: :)
2015-06-28T02:35:41Z beach: In McCLIM basic-pane has MIRRORED-SHEET-MIXIN as a superclass.  I should remove that and see what happens.
2015-06-28T02:36:33Z beach: Things ought to work still, except that it's possible that some of the code has never been tested in these conditions.
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2015-06-28T02:37:14Z beach: If it does work, it means that gilberth's code for "coordinate swizzling" will be automatically disabled.
2015-06-28T02:37:32Z beach: And that's a good thing, because I think it is the cause of some display defects in McCLIM.
2015-06-28T02:38:54Z Bike: i think i don't understand streams. can I not make a pipe? Like something where i can do (defvar *pipe* (make-pipe)) (write "foo" *pipe*) and then later (read *pipe*) and FOO comes out.
2015-06-28T02:39:28Z nyef: Bike: There might be something like that in flexi-streams?
2015-06-28T02:39:52Z beach: It is also easy enough to write it, using Gray streams.
2015-06-28T02:40:45Z Bike: but it's not standard? that's, like, the mos fundamental stream i can think of.
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2015-06-28T02:44:35Z nyef: Because you have a unix background, and unix has had pipes since about day three.
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2015-06-28T02:45:38Z Bike: i guess.
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2015-06-28T02:46:18Z nyef: Not day one, though. They had file streams first.
2015-06-28T02:46:39Z Bike: well, right now what i want is something to interact with a process through. so i can cl:write and the alien process reads it.
2015-06-28T02:47:08Z nyef: So, the I/O streams from run-program?
2015-06-28T02:47:19Z nyef: Aren't those usually unix pipes?
2015-06-28T02:47:39Z Bike: i dunno? i thought the thing for external programs was uiop/run-program but that doesn't appear to exist
2015-06-28T02:47:53Z Bike: so i got one sellout wrote that doesn't have those streams.
2015-06-28T02:47:55Z nyef: I have no idea either.
2015-06-28T02:48:29Z Bike: oh, it does return them... I guess that works, then.
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2015-06-28T03:50:58Z devon: Just for reference, a reasonable answer to my question is (osicat:make-link "link" :target "path")
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2015-06-28T03:56:22Z PuercoPop: devon: That is not portable. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_p.htm#portable. (not that it is not useful). Btw, There is also iolib.syscalls:symlinlk
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2015-06-28T04:07:25Z OxMLR: Is lisp still used in AI? Even if not to the degree that it used to be?
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2015-06-28T04:10:37Z Bike: not particularly more than any other language
2015-06-28T04:11:01Z Bike: AI people have realized that thinking is more complicated than throwing symbols around
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2015-06-28T04:21:59Z Bike: gnuplot with process interface: failed. four line function using a temporary file and uiop: works perfectly. computers.
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2015-06-28T04:29:33Z pjb: Bike: (quick-apropos "gnuplot") gives 4 related systems.
2015-06-28T04:30:26Z pjb: Bike: thinking or reasoning?
2015-06-28T04:32:15Z theos: OxMLR Lisp is used for everything you can think of. and yes AI is best done in lisp!
2015-06-28T04:33:14Z devon: Ah, here we prefer persnickety to portable.
2015-06-28T04:33:50Z nyef: portable, adj: Capable of fitting into a backpack.
2015-06-28T04:36:34Z pjb: OxMLR:  eg. http://www.ravenpack.com is doing AI with CL.
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2015-06-28T04:44:56Z theos: OxMLR a good example of lisp in use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_Analysis_and_Replanning_Tool
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2015-06-28T04:49:35Z devon: PuercoPop: in MacOS 10.9.5 osicat works but (ql:quickload "iolib.syscalls"); .../iolib-20150302-git/src/syscalls/ffi-types-unix.c:6:10: fatal error: 'lfp.h' file not found
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2015-06-28T04:50:06Z pjb: In this category, see http://www.siscog.pt/
2015-06-28T04:50:14Z pjb: OxMLR: ^
2015-06-28T04:50:14Z Bike: devon: you need to install libfixposix (lfp)
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2015-06-28T08:22:55Z theos: beach have you worked on any adaptive learning systems?
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2015-06-28T08:25:55Z beach: theos: No.  Sorry.
2015-06-28T08:26:52Z beach: But it would be very interesting to do so some day.
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2015-06-28T08:28:15Z beach: theos: Do you have some ideas?
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2015-06-28T08:41:23Z theos: beach i want to make an education system in CL for my kids. the main purpose is to teach them without the need of a human.
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2015-06-28T08:42:24Z beach: Seems like a project worth pursuing.
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2015-06-28T08:43:05Z beach: And since there is likely to be some significant adaptations to different domains, a dynamic language like Common Lisp seems like a good fit.
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2015-06-28T08:49:33Z theos: there has been a lot of research done in this field. i am excited!
2015-06-28T08:50:55Z beach: So you are current reading up on published material?
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2015-06-28T08:53:37Z theos: i am looking for books
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2015-06-28T08:54:24Z theos: this one looks good https://sites.google.com/site/autotutormem/
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2015-06-28T08:54:39Z adhoc: theos: the questions of "what" are easy to put in books, the questions of "why" are harder ...
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2015-06-28T08:55:30Z adhoc: theos: because "why
2015-06-28T08:55:38Z adhoc: " depends on context
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2015-06-28T10:53:18Z pjb:  theos: have a look at http://www.ai.univ-paris8.fr/~hw/mespubs.html and http://alarm.cti.depaul.edu/lisptutor/login
2015-06-28T10:55:16Z theos: pjb thats awesome!
2015-06-28T10:55:28Z Shinmera: smokeink: Yes. You should use my repositories as I stated in the article.
2015-06-28T10:55:44Z pjb: theos: there is also stuff in interlisp.
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2015-06-28T11:09:06Z theos: i am reading this book http://www.amazon.com/Intelligent-Adaptive-Learning-Systems-Technology/dp/1609608429
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2015-06-28T13:06:38Z drmeister: beach: Are you online?
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2015-06-28T13:09:39Z beach: Yes.
2015-06-28T13:15:52Z christoph_debian: hm anyone still has the code from https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-telnetd/ ? has there ever been code? all links are 404 these days
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2015-06-28T13:21:19Z drmeister: What's up?
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2015-06-28T13:21:46Z beach: drmeister: I defined LET-UNINITIALIZED.
2015-06-28T13:21:52Z drmeister: I'm over in #clasp trying to sort out why some cclasp function invocations are consing.
2015-06-28T13:21:58Z drmeister: Awesome - thank you!
2015-06-28T13:22:21Z beach: drmeister: And I modified cleavir-primop:fixnum-+ so that it at least appears to work for me.
2015-06-28T13:22:29Z beach: drmeister: Same for fixnum--
2015-06-28T13:22:39Z drmeister: I added a facility to TIME that tells me exactly how many bytes are consed
2015-06-28T13:23:01Z drmeister: Thank you so much!
2015-06-28T13:23:23Z beach: drmeister: I don't have the full environment to do enough testing here.
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2015-06-28T13:23:36Z beach: So there might still be some problems in the code.
2015-06-28T13:23:50Z beach: But you should be able to start playing around with it at least.
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2015-06-28T13:25:31Z drmeister: Again - thank you.
2015-06-28T13:25:53Z drmeister: It doesn't appear that Cleavir expands compiler macros.
2015-06-28T13:26:14Z drmeister: Just FYI
2015-06-28T13:26:27Z beach: Hmm.  OK.  I'll take a look.
2015-06-28T13:26:56Z drmeister: I have a compiler macro for +  that converts it into nested binary-+ calls
2015-06-28T13:27:17Z drmeister: When I disassemble functions that use + they call + rather than binary-+
2015-06-28T13:28:31Z beach: drmeister: Do you return a compiler macro in your function-info?
2015-06-28T13:28:58Z beach: If not, Cleavir won't find it.
2015-06-28T13:30:00Z drmeister: beach: Yes.
2015-06-28T13:30:02Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/m7aPSmon/
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2015-06-28T13:30:58Z beach: Well, the code is in there to call the compiler macro function.
2015-06-28T13:31:06Z drmeister: Dang it!   Hang on.
2015-06-28T13:31:36Z drmeister: But (compiler-macro-function '+) --> nil at the moment
2015-06-28T13:32:07Z drmeister: Sorry, I've been rearranging things like crazy - I thought my compiler macros were working because compiling cclasp only took 7 hours (down from 11)
2015-06-28T13:32:47Z drmeister: I've added compiler macro support but I did some rearranging late last night and I thought I had everything working.
2015-06-28T13:32:51Z drmeister: Investigating...
2015-06-28T13:33:49Z ggole: (11 hours? O_o)
2015-06-28T13:34:17Z nyef: ggole: I know, right? Reminds me of trying to build a NetBSD kernel on a Mac IIcx!
2015-06-28T13:34:24Z Shinmera: drmeister: I didn't count, but I'm quite sure it took a while longer on my MacBook.
2015-06-28T13:34:50Z Shinmera: but then again, I only have a puny 1.6GHz CPU in there, so
2015-06-28T13:35:28Z drmeister: I'll be back.
2015-06-28T13:40:32Z edgar-rft: christoph_debian: see https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/cl-telnetd/cl-telnetd/tree/master
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2015-06-28T13:41:25Z pie_: will learning the basics of any old lisp be suitable for hacking aroundin autolisp?
2015-06-28T13:41:27Z christoph_debian: edgar-rft: didn't expect 2004 code to somehow automatically get into git ;-) thanks!
2015-06-28T13:41:42Z dlowe: pie_: yeah, probably
2015-06-28T13:42:06Z dlowe: pie_: why not Common Lisp?
2015-06-28T13:42:23Z pie_: dlowe: im helping out a friend
2015-06-28T13:42:32Z dlowe: pie_: you might be able to find a channel dedicated to autolisp, too
2015-06-28T13:42:40Z pie_: he would like a bit of cad automation
2015-06-28T13:42:48Z pie_: data entry stuff really
2015-06-28T13:43:09Z dlowe: sure.  you might also get help on ##lisp, which is for the whole lisp family of languages
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2015-06-28T13:44:54Z pie_: oh, i see :)
2015-06-28T13:44:55Z pie_: thanks
2015-06-28T13:47:22Z pie_: ok so the lisps are apparently very different...TIL
2015-06-28T13:47:41Z pjb: Damn, cpp is really crazy!
2015-06-28T13:47:56Z pie_: this sounds terrible
2015-06-28T13:47:58Z pie_: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/9113591/can-anyone-explain-the-design-decisions-behind-autolisp-visual-lisp-to-me
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2015-06-28T13:48:23Z pjb: pie_: we don't know much autolisp here, it's Common Lisp.  Perhaps in ##lisp or perhaps there's an autlisp channel?
2015-06-28T13:49:27Z pie_: i didnt see it in the channel list but ill switch over to ##lisp
2015-06-28T13:49:44Z pjb: pie_: autolisp is not a particularly good lisp.  Almost as bad as MockLisp of GosEmacs.
2015-06-28T13:50:04Z pjb: pie_: they should have switched to Common Lisp long ago…
2015-06-28T13:50:19Z pie_: i bet they dont have anyone that knows how to deal with lisp :/
2015-06-28T13:50:27Z pjb: probably.
2015-06-28T13:50:36Z pie_: or they never asked
2015-06-28T13:50:54Z pie_: well, if someone needs a job maybe they should solicit themselves :PPP
2015-06-28T13:52:28Z dlowe: pjb: autolisp almost as much backward compatibility issues as emacs does with elisp.
2015-06-28T13:52:41Z dlowe: massive amounts of code accumulated over decades
2015-06-28T13:53:07Z beach: pie_: At some point, Autodesk (or whatever the company was called) announced they were hiring people to convert to Common Lisp.  But it never materialized.  Don't know why.
2015-06-28T13:53:50Z beach vanished for a while.
2015-06-28T13:53:57Z pjb: beach: it's not really an easy task.  I see it after three months of work, the poor guy being quizzed about his lack of progress.
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2015-06-28T14:46:16Z papachan: hello
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2015-06-28T15:03:48Z pjb: hi!
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2015-06-28T15:09:21Z isBEKaml: pjb: hi!
2015-06-28T15:09:48Z isBEKaml: Just hanging around, not particularly doing anything...
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2015-06-28T15:39:09Z beach: drmeister: Any news?
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2015-06-28T15:44:35Z nyef: Okay, I don't have ink, my mediums still don't have properties, there are no defined drawing-options yet, and the keyword argument thing for some of the graphics methods needs to be sorted out, but I think I have my graphics core in workable condition.
2015-06-28T15:45:36Z beach: Excellent news!
2015-06-28T15:46:49Z nyef: Oh, and I don't have SHEET-WITH-MEDIUM-MIXIN yet.
2015-06-28T15:47:10Z nyef: I think that my next step is to start in on the frame manager stuff.
2015-06-28T15:47:38Z nyef: The clx-interface.lisp file in nq-clim is basically an ersatz frame manager without the actual frame-manager objects.
2015-06-28T15:48:25Z beach: It should be easy to turn that into a real one then.
2015-06-28T15:48:31Z nyef: Yes-and-no.
2015-06-28T15:49:09Z nyef: It's largely a pile of hacks, actually.
2015-06-28T15:50:41Z nyef: But if I can get my test program onto its own sheet instead of scribbling directly on the toplevel sheet, that'd be a win, and then with some of the frame-manager stuff roughed in...
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2015-06-28T15:53:26Z nyef: That, plus event handling, should get my test program to the point of being just about entirely in CLIM terms.
2015-06-28T15:53:51Z beach: I am impressed by your progress.
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2015-06-28T15:55:28Z nyef: Thank you.
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2015-06-28T16:00:13Z nyef: Ugh. Can't stream video at all today. /-:
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2015-06-28T16:05:03Z Xach: the tubes are too wet
2015-06-28T16:05:23Z nyef: Xach: Yes, that's what I figured.
2015-06-28T16:06:57Z nyef: Clearly, they use water-soluble lubricant to keep the bits moving freely in the tubes, so when it gets too wet they have to wait for the weather to clear and then re-grease the tubes.
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2015-06-28T16:14:24Z jasom: Xach: I was just reading your interview on Lisp Hackers, and you said you filled pdf-forms with cl-pdf?  I currently have an app that calls out to pdftk for form-filling; I didn't know cl-pdf could fill forms.
2015-06-28T16:15:04Z pie_: nyef: whatcha workin on?
2015-06-28T16:15:40Z beach: nyef: You need to tell minion about NQ-CLIM so that you don't have to explain each time.
2015-06-28T16:16:02Z nyef: Heh.
2015-06-28T16:16:24Z beach: ... and you need to put a README on your GitHub repository.
2015-06-28T16:16:34Z nyef: Very probably, yes.
2015-06-28T16:16:34Z beach: Or something like that.  A web page maybe.
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2015-06-28T16:16:50Z nyef: pie_: I'm trying to implement the parts of the CLIM spec that I think "make sense".
2015-06-28T16:16:57Z pie_: ah
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2015-06-28T16:18:12Z Xach: jasom: I crawled the pdf structure to find the dimensions of form elements, then just drew text at those coordinates.
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2015-06-28T16:18:28Z Xach: jasom: I know that PDF has a higher concept of filling out forms, but I didn't use that.
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2015-06-28T16:19:35Z drmeister: beach: My current convoluted build system and some rearranging that I did late last night caused my compiler macros to be quietly left out of the cclasp build that I ran last night - fixing.
2015-06-28T16:19:44Z beach: Xach: So that method might not satisfy the IRS for instance.
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2015-06-28T16:20:17Z Xach: beach: possibly not. though i believe the PDF reference is clear enough to make something that *would* satisfy them. I just chose a shortcut that sufficed for my purposes.
2015-06-28T16:20:25Z beach: Xach: On the other hand, who cares?  As of this year, they have an online site that one can use instead.
2015-06-28T16:20:26Z drmeister: beach: I'll report back tomorrow once I have everything fixed.
2015-06-28T16:20:30Z Xach: to *easily* make something
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2015-06-28T16:20:34Z drmeister: "everything"
2015-06-28T16:21:30Z beach: Xach: Sure.  I just wasn't in a state of mind to do that when I had to do my wife's FBAR declarations.
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2015-06-28T16:21:59Z beach: drmeister: OK.  Good.  I need to go fix dinner soon anyway.
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2015-06-28T16:22:30Z beach: drmeister: Are you sure you want to spend time speeding up the bclasp compiler?
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2015-06-28T16:22:45Z drmeister: beach: It's not just the bclasp compiler.
2015-06-28T16:23:01Z beach: Oh?
2015-06-28T16:23:41Z drmeister: I'm setting things up so that these compiler macros are used by cclasp to convert functions that use &rest arguments into nested binary calls that will be inlined.
2015-06-28T16:24:17Z beach: Sure.  I just saw a discussion in #clasp about speeding up the build process.
2015-06-28T16:24:21Z drmeister: It occurred to me that if I move the compiler macros earlier in the bootstrapping process and added compiler macro support to bclasp that I could speed everything up.
2015-06-28T16:24:29Z beach: ... by speeding up the bclasp compiler I thought.
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2015-06-28T16:24:37Z drmeister: Both.
2015-06-28T16:25:04Z beach: OK.
2015-06-28T16:25:26Z drmeister: The same compiler macros that speed up bclasp will be used by cclasp for inlining.  It's just a matter of rewriting the binary functions and inlining them once cclasp is up.
2015-06-28T16:26:00Z beach: Sure.  That sounds like a good plan.
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2015-06-28T16:26:34Z drmeister: In bclasp (define-compiler-macro + (&rest addends) ...) -->  (+ x y z)  -->  (binary-+ x (binary-+ y z))   and no consing for +.
2015-06-28T16:26:41Z beach: I must have misunderstood the discussion to mean something more general.
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2015-06-28T16:27:44Z drmeister: In cclasp inline (binary-+ x y)  to produce (cond ((and (fixnump x) (fixnump y)) (cleavir-primop:fixnum-+ x y) #| Not really, I'll use your let-uninitialized here |# )
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2015-06-28T16:28:05Z drmeister: Hopefully I'm being clear.
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2015-06-28T16:28:43Z beach: drmeister: What you are saying here is what we have talked about for a while.
2015-06-28T16:29:03Z drmeister: stassats pointed me to SBCL's source transformation code.  I'm implementing something like it using compiler macros in bclasp.
2015-06-28T16:29:09Z drmeister: beach: Yes.
2015-06-28T16:30:01Z drmeister: I know we talked about it - I'm just tying it into the compiler macro support that I added to bclasp.
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2015-06-28T16:31:01Z drmeister: So prefix our conversation about compiler macros and inlining in cclasp with "Oh, what if I add compiler macro support to bclasp - then I can speed it up at the same time and the compiler macros can help me in bootstrapping as well"
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2015-06-28T16:31:17Z beach: Got it.
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2015-06-28T16:32:19Z drmeister: Then it turned into "What if I steal much of SBCL's source transformation code/idea (with attribution) but using compiler macros in bclasp and do constant coalescence and a bunch of other source transformations at the same time?"
2015-06-28T16:32:41Z drmeister: Pretty soon I'm standing in my backyard with another naked Yak.
2015-06-28T16:33:07Z beach: It's your time and energy.  You can do what you want with it.
2015-06-28T16:33:28Z drmeister: Does Cleavir coalesce constants?
2015-06-28T16:33:53Z beach: I don't think so at the moment.
2015-06-28T16:34:00Z beach: But it shall have to one day.
2015-06-28T16:34:02Z Bike: i'm not actually sure what the difference between compiler macros and source transforms is
2015-06-28T16:35:01Z drmeister: Bike: stassats says source transforms are simpler and don't screw up the host compilers environment.
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2015-06-28T16:35:10Z drmeister: But basically they are compiler macros.
2015-06-28T16:35:34Z Bike: removed the funcall stuff and the declining to expand, probably
2015-06-28T16:35:41Z drmeister: I don't know what the "simpler" part means but I don't have to worry about screwing up any host compilers environment.
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2015-06-28T16:35:59Z Bike: oh, no, you can decline to expand by returning a second value. ok. that makes more sense anyway
2015-06-28T16:36:33Z Bike: anyway what i'm sort of getting at is you should maybe just use compiler macros instead of implementing a whole other mechanism that is compiler macros.
2015-06-28T16:36:41Z drmeister: Bike: Are you referring to what source transforms do in SBCL?  I haven't looked at them in detail yet.
2015-06-28T16:36:59Z drmeister: Bike: I am just implementing compiler macros.
2015-06-28T16:37:00Z Bike: yes
2015-06-28T16:37:30Z Bike: oh, ok.
2015-06-28T16:37:45Z beach: drmeister: Just my opinion of course, but you might want to be a bit selective about the ideas you decide to incorporate.
2015-06-28T16:37:48Z drmeister: Because I don't have to worry about screwing up any host compiler environment.
2015-06-28T16:38:43Z drmeister: beach: That's why I ask about constant coalescence - it won't speed up bclasp much and if Cleavir is going to do it then I don't need to.
2015-06-28T16:38:45Z beach: What does it mean to "screw up a host compiler environment"?
2015-06-28T16:39:28Z drmeister: Paraphrased from stassats - I guess it means that compiler macros would be defined in the host compiler compile-time environment?
2015-06-28T16:39:49Z beach: How does that "screw up" that environment?
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2015-06-28T16:40:07Z Bike: since they're for standard functions, it's sort of undefined. maybe. i don't know sbcl bootstrapping.
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2015-06-28T16:40:24Z Bike: drmeister: btw, ccl does a lot of optimizations through compiler macros, so you can steal those too
2015-06-28T16:40:38Z drmeister: I don't know - I have to be selective about what threads of thought I follow.
2015-06-28T16:40:49Z beach: drmeister: That would be my recommendation.
2015-06-28T16:41:11Z beach: drmeister: and to think hard about what the implications are before pursuing too far.
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2015-06-28T16:42:10Z beach: drmeister: And that goes for SICL ideas as well.  You have said you want first-class global environments, but you don't know what that would mean for your system.
2015-06-28T16:42:15Z Bike: doing simple optimizations through compiler macros is a pretty good idea imo, you have to have compiler macros anyway and users aren't allowed to define compiler macros for cl functions
2015-06-28T16:42:25Z beach: Exactly!
2015-06-28T16:42:35Z beach: It's a mechanism that has to be there anyway.
2015-06-28T16:42:45Z beach: No additional work.  No additional maintenance.
2015-06-28T16:42:51Z drmeister: beach: We are on the same page.  I'm not going off on flights of fancy here.  The goal is to implement these compiler macros to transform transitive and intransitive functions that use &REST arguments into binary equivalents in an efficient way.
2015-06-28T16:43:35Z Bike: you mean associative?
2015-06-28T16:44:06Z beach: drmeister: You especially need to think hard about incorporating ideas from existing implementations, since (and this is the reason for SICL) those implementations were often written (or at least started) before there even was a Common Lisp standard.
2015-06-28T16:44:16Z beach: drmeister: So the techniques they use might not be optimal today.
2015-06-28T16:44:17Z drmeister: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/compiler/srctran.lisp#L4297
2015-06-28T16:44:39Z drmeister: They describe + as being "transitive" and - / as "intransitive".
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2015-06-28T16:45:22Z drmeister: beach: What I'm doing here is exactly what you and I discussed for inlining.  I don't see what the problem is.
2015-06-28T16:45:39Z Bike: i think they mean associative. well, whatever, it doesn't really matter
2015-06-28T16:46:01Z beach: drmeister: I worry when I hear you say the equivalent of "I read this or heard this, and now I want it in Clasp."
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2015-06-28T16:46:25Z beach: drmeister: But again, I should be quiet because it is your energy and your time.
2015-06-28T16:46:30Z beach: You can do whatever you want with it.
2015-06-28T16:46:52Z Bike: i think you can use this code verbatim, if you add "&whole form" to the ll and change "(values nil t)" to "form"
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2015-06-28T16:47:12Z beach: Anyway.  Time to go fix dinner.
2015-06-28T16:47:14Z Bike: as a compiler macro i mean.
2015-06-28T16:47:16Z beach: I might be back later.
2015-06-28T16:47:20Z drmeister: I'm not collecting shiny things here.   I see a feature, I understand what it's good for and I want to implement it.
2015-06-28T16:47:58Z beach: But you often don't think about alternative ways of obtaining the advantages of the feature without implementing it.
2015-06-28T16:48:24Z beach: Anyway, now I am really off.
2015-06-28T16:49:23Z drmeister: Hence, here I am discussing what I'm doing.
2015-06-28T16:50:44Z drmeister: But warnings like "think about what you are doing" aren't very actionable.  I welcome concrete suggestions.  Compiler macros in bclasp shaved four hours off of an eleven hour compilation.  That's a win.
2015-06-28T16:51:03Z drmeister: I think about what I'm doing - I have a lot to do though.
2015-06-28T16:52:11Z drmeister: Perhaps I don't express what I'm thinking about as clearly as I could. But there's a point where it's easier to just implement something than to explain exactly what I'm thinking.
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2015-06-28T16:57:13Z drmeister is continuing his exposition for the general audience
2015-06-28T16:58:27Z drmeister: What I mean by the "source transformation" facility in SBCL is functions like + * logior logxor logand logeqv gcd lcm can share the same code to convert them into nested binary versions.
2015-06-28T16:58:44Z drmeister: Same with - and /
2015-06-28T16:59:36Z drmeister: And = < > <= >=
2015-06-28T17:00:11Z drmeister: So SBCL has three functions that expand those three different kinds of functions into nested binary versions.
2015-06-28T17:01:03Z drmeister: In my first attempt at writing compiler macros for = < > <= >= I wrote five almost identical (copy/paste/change) compiler macros with a support function - that was dumb.
2015-06-28T17:02:36Z drmeister: Also, these compiler macros all need to check for proper-list-p on their arguments.   So I think it's a good idea to combine all of this code into one file and call it "source-transforms.lsp".
2015-06-28T17:03:30Z drmeister: So if any of this sounds like a dumb idea - I'd love to get feedback.
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2015-06-28T17:06:27Z Xach: jasom: cl-pdf could use a layer or three of convenience on top
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2015-06-28T17:37:39Z beach: drmeister: Yes, but that is not called "source transformation" as a separate feature.  It is called using ordinary abstractions such as functions and macros to avoid repeating duplicate code.
2015-06-28T17:39:14Z drmeister: Hmm, good point - I may be unaware of the common meaning of "source transformation".  What does it mean?
2015-06-28T17:39:43Z beach: It doesn't deserve a separate name.
2015-06-28T17:40:12Z drmeister: Right, it's just macros doing their thing - isn't it?
2015-06-28T17:40:12Z beach: If you invent a separate name for it, you might be tempted to put all kinds of stuff into it that happens to take some source and generate some modified source.
2015-06-28T17:40:31Z beach: Exactly.
2015-06-28T17:40:43Z beach: Just ordinary Common Lisp abstractions.  Macros and functions.
2015-06-28T17:40:52Z drmeister: Ok, I'm going to write some functions that help some macros do their thing :-)
2015-06-28T17:41:20Z beach: Exactly.  Some macros or compiler macros do similar things.
2015-06-28T17:41:26Z drmeister moves one tiny step closer to enlightenment
2015-06-28T17:41:33Z beach: So you abstract out the commonalities into functions and macros.
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2015-06-28T17:42:01Z drmeister: SBCL puts a fancy name on it.
2015-06-28T17:42:27Z beach: I suspect, but I don't know, that SBCL used it as an alternative to compiler macros.
2015-06-28T17:42:35Z beach: Perhaps even before compiler macros were standardized.
2015-06-28T17:42:43Z drmeister: Stas was just pointing out that I had a lot of duplicate code.  I saw "source transformation" and I ran with the idea.
2015-06-28T17:42:50Z beach: So perhaps a name was justified at the time.
2015-06-28T17:44:35Z drmeister: Ok. So do you think it sounds like a good plan?  To implement this stuff in bclasp and then it will serve double duty, speed up bclasp and convert functions like + into nested binary versions that will work with Cleavir inlining?
2015-06-28T17:44:52Z beach: Sure.
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2015-06-28T17:45:19Z beach: Like I said, at least it will avoid consing &REST arguments.
2015-06-28T17:45:35Z drmeister: Excellent - thank you. I really, really do value your input.
2015-06-28T17:45:57Z beach: Thanks.
2015-06-28T17:46:44Z drmeister: And thank you for returning.  I was feeling terrible that I may have come off sounding a bit testy.
2015-06-28T17:46:58Z beach: Nah, nothing to worry about.
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2015-06-28T17:47:57Z drmeister: Onward then.  I will start working with let-uninitialized.
2015-06-28T17:48:07Z beach: OK.  Have fun.
2015-06-28T17:48:14Z beach: I will go spend time with my (admittedly small) family.
2015-06-28T17:48:23Z drmeister: Thanks.
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2015-06-28T17:54:15Z pjb: I surely hope this is a recorded message.
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2015-06-28T18:01:56Z shka_: good evening all
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2015-06-28T18:22:47Z shka_: i'm looking for detailed description of xanadu Enfilade/Ent data structures
2015-06-28T18:23:09Z shka_: i want to reimplement those in common lisp
2015-06-28T18:23:18Z shka_: perhaps some of you knows any?
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2015-06-28T18:24:26Z p_l: probably lost in deeps of journal archives, if at all :|
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2015-06-28T18:29:08Z tmtwd: will learning metaprogramming in lisp be a good assistant to learning macros and stuff in common lisp?
2015-06-28T18:29:21Z shka_: p_l: i heared that here is open xanadu, but not sure what it is
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2015-06-28T18:29:39Z shka_: tmtwd: not sure what you ment here
2015-06-28T18:30:05Z tmtwd: well macros is similar to metaprogramming
2015-06-28T18:30:27Z tmtwd: so will metaprogramming in another language make learning macros easier?
2015-06-28T18:30:33Z shka_: macros are the lisp way of metaprogramming
2015-06-28T18:30:42Z tmtwd: so ---- no?
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2015-06-28T18:31:13Z shka_: "will learning metaprogramming in lisp" <- that's what makes the thing confusing
2015-06-28T18:31:21Z tmtwd: oops
2015-06-28T18:31:26Z tmtwd: I meant ruby
2015-06-28T18:31:32Z shka_: right
2015-06-28T18:31:35Z shka_: i don't know ruby
2015-06-28T18:31:37Z tmtwd: *bang head on wall*
2015-06-28T18:31:49Z tmtwd: Ok
2015-06-28T18:31:51Z shka_: but imho you should simply write macros
2015-06-28T18:32:04Z shka_: and don't consider it anything fancy
2015-06-28T18:32:08Z tmtwd: yes, I'm just going to be doing a bit of ruby soon
2015-06-28T18:32:12Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2015-06-28T18:32:20Z tmtwd: thought I could hit 2 birds with one stone
2015-06-28T18:32:23Z shka_: macos is a function that returns list, right?
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2015-06-28T18:32:36Z tmtwd: return 'list' or 'a list'?
2015-06-28T18:32:50Z shka_: i'm not very good at gramma
2015-06-28T18:32:53Z tmtwd: yeah, I've read that
2015-06-28T18:33:00Z edgar-rft: shka_: the open-sourced xanadu is here: http://udanax.xanadu.com/
2015-06-28T18:33:22Z shka_: edgar-rft: did you tried to browse this code?
2015-06-28T18:33:55Z shka_: tmtwd: you can try to read let over lambdas
2015-06-28T18:34:01Z shka_: it is free book
2015-06-28T18:34:10Z tmtwd: yeah, I'm trying to read it now
2015-06-28T18:34:11Z shka_: fairly easy to read
2015-06-28T18:34:23Z shka_: and gives good insight into macros
2015-06-28T18:34:30Z tmtwd: are macros similar to macros in C?
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2015-06-28T18:34:34Z shka_: no
2015-06-28T18:34:42Z shka_: c macros are textual and stupid
2015-06-28T18:34:49Z shka_: cl macros are structural
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2015-06-28T18:36:11Z shka_: tmtwd: to make things a little bit simple: long story short lisp code is basicly written as lists (that is lisp data structures) and macros are functions that run on the compilation and produce code as it would be lists
2015-06-28T18:36:30Z shka_: tricky part is what should be evaluated when
2015-06-28T18:36:37Z shka_: that is: compile time vs run time
2015-06-28T18:36:56Z shka_: and the only way to understand it is practice
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2015-06-28T18:37:30Z shka_: but writing macros is fairly rewarding expierence so it should be pleasant
2015-06-28T18:37:49Z tmtwd: i see
2015-06-28T18:38:41Z kristof: tmtwd: No, they're two completely different styles of metaprogramming. In fact, I would consider Ruby metaprogramming to be more like c macros because of their typical use in textual substitution.
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2015-06-28T18:39:03Z tmtwd: how come people say ruby is like lisp?
2015-06-28T18:39:15Z tmtwd: everything I've seen it is nothing like lisp
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2015-06-28T18:39:30Z shka_: tmtwd: sorry, i cant answer that question
2015-06-28T18:39:31Z wobh: Same reasons they say javascript is like lisp
2015-06-28T18:39:51Z tmtwd: except I can see the similarities of java and lisp
2015-06-28T18:40:05Z tmtwd: ie functions are 1st class
2015-06-28T18:40:07Z kristof: tmtwd: Because it's like an ouroboros. Everything you could possibly think of is an object, and there's a beautiful, fractal/recursive quality to the entire langauge.
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2015-06-28T18:40:26Z shka_: tmtwd: java have first class functions?
2015-06-28T18:40:40Z kristof: shka_: See method handles
2015-06-28T18:40:57Z arrubin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2015-06-28T18:40:59Z wobh: If that were a reasonable criteria there would be a lot of lisps
2015-06-28T18:40:59Z kristof: tmtwd: But learning Ruby will only help you learn Lisp in making your mind more flexible. Anyway, to answer all your questions, just pick up a copy of Practical Common Lisp and get reading :)
2015-06-28T18:41:00Z tmtwd: shka_, oops no. I meant js
2015-06-28T18:41:27Z shka_: kristof: is that something like bind from c++11 or something completly different?
2015-06-28T18:41:54Z shka_: the last time i checked, i had to pass interfaces like everywhere
2015-06-28T18:42:03Z shka_: but whatever
2015-06-28T18:42:11Z shka_: it is not really important
2015-06-28T18:42:24Z kristof: shka_: shka_ Sort of. Method handles are typed and support an "apply" method. But otherwise, yes.
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2015-06-28T18:43:04Z shka_: kristof: is that from java 8 or i don't know java at all? ;-)
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2015-06-28T18:43:22Z wobh: Although ruby does have block passing syntax which is sort of macro-like for some uses of macros if you stand far enough back and squint.
2015-06-28T18:43:28Z tmtwd: http://pastebin.com/U7L3icwP
2015-06-28T18:43:35Z tmtwd: is this supposed to happen?
2015-06-28T18:43:55Z tmtwd: I set x to 10, but it keeps printing 25
2015-06-28T18:44:07Z shka_: tmtwd: ha!
2015-06-28T18:44:09Z shka_: see?
2015-06-28T18:44:15Z tmtwd: I don't see
2015-06-28T18:44:20Z shka_: that's what i've been talking about
2015-06-28T18:44:31Z tmtwd: execution time?
2015-06-28T18:44:37Z shka_: yup
2015-06-28T18:44:53Z tmtwd: its like a closure or something?
2015-06-28T18:45:01Z tmtwd: it has scope only within the macro?
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2015-06-28T18:45:23Z Petit_Dejeuner: "<wobh> Same reasons they say javascript is like lisp" obligatory http://journal.stuffwithstuff.com/2013/07/18/javascript-isnt-scheme/
2015-06-28T18:45:30Z wobh: in line three you set x to 25. what's the mystery?
2015-06-28T18:46:06Z tmtwd: wobh,  but then I set it to 10 via a macro later, and it still prints 25
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2015-06-28T18:47:02Z shka_: (defmacro setto5(x) `(setf ,x 5))
2015-06-28T18:47:05Z shka_: try this
2015-06-28T18:47:36Z wobh: that macro, with it's confusingly named parameter, can't do what you're trying to make it do.
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2015-06-28T18:48:28Z wobh: what shka_ said
2015-06-28T18:48:34Z wobh: (spoiler)
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2015-06-28T18:49:25Z tmtwd: oh cool
2015-06-28T18:49:29Z shka_: tmtwd: also, don't bother with such macros
2015-06-28T18:49:34Z shka_: they are basicly useless
2015-06-28T18:49:34Z tmtwd: ok
2015-06-28T18:49:55Z tmtwd: just trying to get a beginners grasp {)
2015-06-28T18:49:58Z tmtwd: :)
2015-06-28T18:50:04Z shka_: i understand that
2015-06-28T18:50:15Z shka_: but i recommend to simply write some common lisp code
2015-06-28T18:50:23Z tmtwd: ok
2015-06-28T18:50:32Z wobh: That is a better introductory macro than most of the example macro's I've seen.
2015-06-28T18:51:01Z shka_: and once you get that impression that you have patteren that should be simplified and you ran out of other options, try to use macro
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2015-06-28T18:51:34Z shka_: for instance
2015-06-28T18:51:49Z tmtwd: shka_, won't that take years
2015-06-28T18:51:49Z shka_: i was working on some heavy OO web app
2015-06-28T18:52:00Z wobh: (defmacro square(n) `(* n n)) <-- useless
2015-06-28T18:52:23Z wobh: heh, and buggy
2015-06-28T18:52:54Z shka_: and as usual, i had this problem where i had to figure out what is the optimal way to initialize my objects
2015-06-28T18:53:26Z shka_: i figured out that i will simply write initializer class with few variants
2015-06-28T18:53:46Z tmtwd: shka_, what language? lisp
2015-06-28T18:53:54Z shka_: and this worked great since i was free to combine those classes
2015-06-28T18:54:00Z shka_: tmtwd: yes, cl
2015-06-28T18:54:25Z shka_: the problem was that quickly i got tones of boilerplate code for that
2015-06-28T18:54:53Z shka_: however, i wrote macro to generate those classes along with my real class
2015-06-28T18:55:29Z shka_: and suddenly everything was better structured, smaller and easier to understand
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2015-06-28T18:55:57Z tmtwd: oh cool
2015-06-28T18:55:58Z shka_: from my expierence, that's where macros are really great
2015-06-28T18:56:07Z tmtwd: interesting
2015-06-28T18:56:27Z shka_: so to make story short
2015-06-28T18:56:41Z shka_: if you have pattern and you don't express it in code
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2015-06-28T18:56:56Z shka_: macro could be a good solution
2015-06-28T18:57:02Z tmtwd: isn't there a lisp framework you could have used?
2015-06-28T18:57:18Z shka_: framework for what?
2015-06-28T18:57:19Z tmtwd: interesting
2015-06-28T18:57:27Z tmtwd: a web framework
2015-06-28T18:57:36Z shka_: ah, there are few
2015-06-28T18:57:42Z shka_: caveman for instance
2015-06-28T18:57:43Z wobh: There's a video of Peter Siebel giving an introductory lecture to Google, and at the very end (maybe during Q&A) he talks about how one use of macros is formalizing design patterns.
2015-06-28T18:58:11Z aeth: wobh: why (* n n) instead of (expt n 2) for squaring?
2015-06-28T18:58:15Z shka_: but i don't see he any of those frameworks would address my problem
2015-06-28T18:58:27Z wobh: aeth: exactly
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2015-06-28T18:58:47Z shka_: how is expt implemented anyway?
2015-06-28T18:58:49Z aeth: I guess to avoid a magic number :-p
2015-06-28T18:59:00Z aeth: (* n n) doesn't have any magic number and is therefore better :-p
2015-06-28T18:59:15Z shka_: because it is possible that * n n is faster
2015-06-28T18:59:49Z ggole_: (expt (complicated-expensive-thing) 2) is nicer than (let ((n (complicated-expensive-thing))) (* n n))
2015-06-28T18:59:52Z wobh: for the example of bad macro, it's necessary for tautological reasons.
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2015-06-28T19:00:19Z tmtwd: does practical common lisp have exercises?
2015-06-28T19:00:21Z SAL9000 joined #lisp
2015-06-28T19:00:21Z aeth: shka_: maybe, maybe not. Possibly depends on the implementation. I doubt it's faster than sbcl.
2015-06-28T19:00:25Z aeth: *faster on sbcl
2015-06-28T19:00:29Z aeth: Never try to fight sbcl
2015-06-28T19:00:54Z shka_: tmtwd: yes!
2015-06-28T19:00:55Z shka_: many!
2015-06-28T19:01:02Z shka_: and they are quite good
2015-06-28T19:01:05Z tmtwd: oh good
2015-06-28T19:01:12Z tmtwd: land of lisp has no exercises
2015-06-28T19:01:26Z shka_: but it has projects that you can implement
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2015-06-28T19:02:05Z shka_: tmtwd: you were asking about something like "write a function that does this or that?"
2015-06-28T19:02:09Z wobh: I thought every chapter of LoL was you writing some simple game.
2015-06-28T19:02:17Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2015-06-28T19:02:20Z tmtwd: wobh, yes
2015-06-28T19:02:27Z tmtwd: but no problems
2015-06-28T19:02:31Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2015-06-28T19:02:46Z wobh: Ah.
2015-06-28T19:02:50Z wobh: Well ...
2015-06-28T19:03:24Z pt1 joined #lisp
2015-06-28T19:03:40Z tmtwd: something like sicp where they have questions based on the material interspersed with code
2015-06-28T19:04:10Z shka_: i see
2015-06-28T19:04:16Z shka_: did you read sicp?
2015-06-28T19:04:32Z shka_: because it is really good book
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2015-06-28T19:04:35Z wobh: I can't speak for the author but I would think, that people who would find LoL useful would be those who would take the chapter game and extend it in some imaginative way, and thus, discover their own problems.
2015-06-28T19:04:44Z aeth: It looks like expt and * for squaring are roughly the same speed in TIME in SBCL, when I manually enter in the same number twice for * and do repeated trials. I'm guessing LET has some overhead that will make the (* n n) slower as ggole_ said
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2015-06-28T19:05:16Z tmtwd: wobh, the creative types
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2015-06-28T19:05:36Z wobh: Kids of a certain age definitely
2015-06-28T19:05:36Z Bike: they ought to be the same, since on sbcl the compiler replaces (expt anything 2) with (* anything anything)
2015-06-28T19:05:50Z wobh: but anyone, once they think of it, and try it out.
2015-06-28T19:05:55Z shka_: wobh: i'm not kid, but i liked lol
2015-06-28T19:06:02Z Bike: M-. is superior to empiricism. death to time
2015-06-28T19:06:05Z shka_: because examples were entertaining
2015-06-28T19:06:15Z shka_: i liked evolution a lot
2015-06-28T19:06:24Z aeth: Bike: it varied greatly from just under 600 processor cycles to once as much as 1400 processor cycles, usually in the 800-900, but basically identical.
2015-06-28T19:06:38Z Bike: i mean, that's just noise
2015-06-28T19:06:42Z aeth: Bike: So yes you are probably right that it's identical if I ran enough trials and averaged the numbers
2015-06-28T19:06:53Z aeth: I would just have to run a lot for the averages to be identical
2015-06-28T19:07:00Z wobh: I've only read the sample chapters, but LoL looks like a lot of fun to me.
2015-06-28T19:07:08Z Bike: it's l3659 of src/compiler/srctran.lisp
2015-06-28T19:07:17Z Bike: ((= val 2) `(* x x)), baby
2015-06-28T19:07:26Z tmtwd: lol is a great book
2015-06-28T19:08:24Z Bike: it doesn't do it for powers above three. i guess the loop is probably about as fast at that point anyway
2015-06-28T19:08:41Z shka_: tmtwd: perhaps not great, but pretty good indeed
2015-06-28T19:08:47Z shka_: and pleasant to read
2015-06-28T19:09:14Z shka_: oh man, xanadu green is c code
2015-06-28T19:09:17Z tmtwd: well I suppose I'm guilty of language inflation
2015-06-28T19:09:19Z shka_: with no documentation
2015-06-28T19:09:25Z shka_: this will be fun
2015-06-28T19:11:30Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2015-06-28T19:11:35Z aeth: Bike: well at least then we have some limited empirical data that suggests that sbcl source code does as it says :-)
2015-06-28T19:11:37Z wobh: tmtwd: exercism.io has a Clojure track, a CL track (disclosure, I'm one of the CL track maintainers), and recently, Scheme and elisp tracks.
2015-06-28T19:11:59Z Patzy joined #lisp
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2015-06-28T19:12:38Z tmtwd: wobh, cool app
2015-06-28T19:12:44Z tmtwd: im signing up
2015-06-28T19:12:47Z wobh: The CL track only has a dozenish of the exercises implemented yet, but we just got integration testing going, so we're going to be adding more as time permits us.
2015-06-28T19:13:32Z Bike: aeth: that's true, it's sadly difficult to see what the code looks like after optimization but before assembly
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2015-06-28T19:25:37Z pjb: C macros are not stupid, they're crazy; I know: I'm re-implementing cpp.
2015-06-28T19:26:01Z pjb: I mean, those guys really were on LSD, no doubt about it.
2015-06-28T19:26:01Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2015-06-28T19:26:04Z tmtwd: oh cool - found a good macro example on stackoverflow
2015-06-28T19:26:42Z shka_: pjb: my impression on C-macros is:
2015-06-28T19:27:12Z shka_: "Oh crap, i don't want to type this! I will just hack something, just for me!"
2015-06-28T19:27:13Z pjb: tmtwd: Ruby is not like lisp.  Ruby is a Matzacred lisp.
2015-06-28T19:27:26Z tmtwd: yes, even matz said so
2015-06-28T19:27:29Z shka_: and that's how it all started
2015-06-28T19:27:35Z tmtwd: I just don't see the comparison
2015-06-28T19:27:45Z Bike: that's how the cute story in PCL goes, so it must be true
2015-06-28T19:27:54Z pjb: shka_: right, so far so good.  But that's when you look at the hack that you know he was on LSD.
2015-06-28T19:28:04Z tmtwd: ie, if you say javascript is a bastardized lisp, and ruby is a bastardized smalltalk - I get that
2015-06-28T19:28:05Z pjb: drugs and programming don't go together.
2015-06-28T19:28:12Z tmtwd: I just don't see how ruby comes from lisp
2015-06-28T19:28:14Z shka_: pjb: imho he was on deadline
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2015-06-28T19:28:22Z shka_: and lot's of coffe
2015-06-28T19:28:35Z shka_: that's how the wost kind of software borns
2015-06-28T19:28:40Z pjb: shka_: nope, they were researched at AT&T they didn't have any deadline.
2015-06-28T19:28:44Z Bike: psh, i'm on DiPT as we speak and i'm programming fine
2015-06-28T19:28:49Z wobh: Perhaps a bad trip?
2015-06-28T19:29:30Z pjb: and the worst of them all is definitely Stroustrup
2015-06-28T19:29:49Z pjb: He must have switched on Chinese designer drugs.
2015-06-28T19:29:58Z tmtwd: c++, *cringe*
2015-06-28T19:30:33Z pjb: No, I mean, templates! The syntax, not even realizing it was Turing Complete…
2015-06-28T19:30:34Z wobh: I'll say this for C++ and Stroustrup, it was an ambitious plan.
2015-06-28T19:30:44Z pjb: Not a reason to do drugs.
2015-06-28T19:31:18Z pjb: I mean, in Europe we can design programming languages without that (cf. Wirth, Ichbiah, Comenauer, Meyer).
2015-06-28T19:31:45Z shka_: Voyage C++
2015-06-28T19:32:01Z shka_: new brand of lsd
2015-06-28T19:32:03Z pjb: I mean, the difference between C/C++ and LISP, is that McCarthy wasn't on drugs.  Definitely not.
2015-06-28T19:32:04Z shka_: hehe
2015-06-28T19:33:08Z wobh: I dunno, man. Some people get in touch with the great Oneness of everything, you know.
2015-06-28T19:33:47Z shka_: i still thing that way C++ and C works is because they really wanted to solve some specific issue "good enough"
2015-06-28T19:34:14Z shka_: and once it was "done" they moved on to other problems
2015-06-28T19:34:16Z pjb: sicp is a good book, unfortunately, it stop short of syntactic abstraction (macros), describing on data abstraction, functional abstraction, and metalinguistic abstraction.
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2015-06-28T19:34:48Z pjb: So you have to read Barski.
2015-06-28T19:35:05Z tmtwd: pjb, macros were still being standardized when they wrote it, thats why
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2015-06-28T19:35:18Z pjb: Casting Spels in Lisp  Conrad Barski, M.D.  http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html
2015-06-28T19:35:20Z shka_: tmtwd: really?
2015-06-28T19:35:32Z pjb: It's quite possible, indeed.
2015-06-28T19:35:40Z pjb: shka_: in scheme.
2015-06-28T19:35:47Z shka_: pjb: i know
2015-06-28T19:35:48Z wobh: I've been reading (and rereading) the sample chapters of the other LoL book, Hoyt's Let over Lambda
2015-06-28T19:35:55Z shka_: but i'm surprised to hear it
2015-06-28T19:35:56Z tmtwd: yes sicp is all scheme
2015-06-28T19:36:02Z wobh: It's been very helpful.
2015-06-28T19:36:34Z shka_: aaaaaaaanyway, i downloaded xanadu source code
2015-06-28T19:36:48Z shka_: 40 years old C code
2015-06-28T19:37:01Z shka_: ;_;
2015-06-28T19:37:05Z wobh: I don't think I go along with all of it, but I've learned some new tricks. Although, they're tricks I don't have any use for yet.
2015-06-28T19:37:41Z shka_: wobh: well, to be fair, few of us have option to earn any money with lisp
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2015-06-28T19:38:26Z wobh: Ruby dev by day, here.
2015-06-28T19:38:30Z wobh: Could be worse.
2015-06-28T19:38:50Z tmtwd: what is the point of xanadu?
2015-06-28T19:39:06Z shka_: tmtwd: it is old hypertext system
2015-06-28T19:39:37Z shka_: they use data structure for efficient trans-linking and version control of text
2015-06-28T19:39:41Z pjb: the original hypertext implementation.
2015-06-28T19:39:49Z pjb: No dead link.
2015-06-28T19:40:06Z shka_: and i'm interested in those structures
2015-06-28T19:40:23Z pjb: the web as it should have been, if we had lisp machines instead of unix boxes. :-)
2015-06-28T19:40:24Z shka_: not only no dead links
2015-06-28T19:40:36Z shka_: but also no one way links
2015-06-28T19:40:45Z pjb: ie. cathedrals instead of bazaars.
2015-06-28T19:41:22Z shka_: well, sadly it never took of
2015-06-28T19:41:41Z shka_: but they put considerable ammount of time into designing it
2015-06-28T19:41:41Z pjb: Yeah. Instead of you have facebook.
2015-06-28T19:42:07Z pjb: That said, I'm not sure any implementation of xanadu could support the number of links we have on the web nowadays.
2015-06-28T19:42:11Z shka_: pjb: don't forget about youtube
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2015-06-28T19:42:52Z shka_: that's true, however it should be efficient model for creating documentation
2015-06-28T19:43:37Z shka_: and for collaborative editing as well
2015-06-28T19:43:55Z shka_: basicly you can use it to create wikipedia on steroids
2015-06-28T19:44:53Z shka_: these shouldn't be terrible hard once i get cl implementation of basic data structure they use
2015-06-28T19:45:12Z shka_: but understanding old C code can be a chalenge
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2015-06-28T19:53:25Z pjb: the lisp machine document authoring software (iirc, concordia was its name) was like that, with hypertext and stuff.
2015-06-28T19:53:43Z shka_: yes, concordia
2015-06-28T19:53:48Z pjb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOysrxexTXg
2015-06-28T19:53:58Z pjb: so get the sources and understand old lisp code instead ;-)
2015-06-28T19:55:44Z shka_: pjb: i don't think i can obtain this source code legally
2015-06-28T19:56:03Z shka_: also, they are probabbly not optimized
2015-06-28T19:56:13Z pjb: I didn't say you could, but you can obtain them illegally, it should be possible AFAIK.
2015-06-28T19:56:23Z pjb: if you can find the piratebay server.
2015-06-28T19:56:40Z shka_: i don't want to do that
2015-06-28T19:56:51Z shka_: i want to respect copyrights
2015-06-28T19:56:55Z pjb: of course, you should not.
2015-06-28T19:57:10Z pjb: Let's just hope there are sufficient illegal copies, that it won't be lost forever, eventually.
2015-06-28T19:57:30Z shka_: also
2015-06-28T19:57:49Z shka_: the good part about concordia was not internal data structure
2015-06-28T19:58:07Z shka_: but that it was complete
2015-06-28T19:58:13Z shka_: and you could actually print it
2015-06-28T19:58:23Z shka_: and it was as good as any book
2015-06-28T19:59:00Z shka_: i don't think anything to this date would work equally well on both paper and computer screen
2015-06-28T20:00:14Z shka_: it would be nice to get something comparable eventually
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2015-06-28T20:01:51Z cl-porky11: does someone want to discuss about possible improvements of common lisp?
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2015-06-28T20:02:11Z Shinmera: Depends.
2015-06-28T20:02:16Z wobh: (so many people)
2015-06-28T20:02:39Z Shinmera: If it's something that can be done as a library: Just write it
2015-06-28T20:02:46Z Shinmera: If it's something that would require a new standard: no
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2015-06-28T20:03:37Z shka_: how we could write another standard anyway?
2015-06-28T20:03:38Z cl-porky11: some things I think of can be done as library, some would require new standards
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2015-06-28T20:04:37Z wobh: (there's that CL-21 project, Robert Smith's article "what I want from Common Lisp", that thread on
2015-06-28T20:04:39Z cl-porky11: maybe they would not need, but I would have to rewrite the compiler then
2015-06-28T20:04:59Z Shinmera: "the compiler"?
2015-06-28T20:05:01Z Shinmera: Which one?
2015-06-28T20:05:33Z wobh: ... CLL about changing the reader to allow scheme calling syntax, and the CL Document Repository project)
2015-06-28T20:05:51Z cl-porky11: I mean new definitions of compile and compile-file
2015-06-28T20:06:38Z wobh: (not to mention and many, many other possible improvements throughout the years.)
2015-06-28T20:07:07Z cl-porky11: isn't cl21 dead? the last commit was last year
2015-06-28T20:07:58Z Shinmera: People realise it's not the freshest idea.
2015-06-28T20:08:01Z wobh: Can we distinguish it's deadness from CL more generally?
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2015-06-28T20:09:30Z failproofshark: #define ; ;sleep(10);
2015-06-28T20:09:32Z wobh: Anyway, sorry, I'm curious to read what you have in mind for compile and compile-file.
2015-06-28T20:09:44Z failproofshark: oh crap sorry wrong room
2015-06-28T20:10:38Z cl-porky11: if I would write a new function for eval, I would also need a new function for compile
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2015-06-28T20:12:30Z Bike: if you introduce new evaluation semantics you introduce new compilation semantics. that seems inevitable
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2015-06-28T20:14:01Z cl-porky11: or is there already an easy way to redefine the evaluation function on specific objects?
2015-06-28T20:14:15Z Bike: there is not
2015-06-28T20:14:31Z Bike: what are you doing exactly
2015-06-28T20:14:40Z pjb: cl-porky11: I said ##lisp, not #lisp.
2015-06-28T20:14:47Z jackdaniel: cl-porky11: if you just want to introduce new semantics, you can write your own reader
2015-06-28T20:16:32Z cl-porky11: but then I would also have to write new printers, what mab be difficult
2015-06-28T20:16:41Z cl-porky11: *may
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2015-06-28T20:17:57Z jackdaniel: cl-porky11: writing new compiler would be harder, and if you write just reader, you may use cl printers
2015-06-28T20:18:09Z jackdaniel: you know, macros, stuff, lisp :D
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2015-06-28T20:19:25Z pjb: cl-porky11: so far you didn't enonciate any improvement.
2015-06-28T20:19:49Z jackdaniel: indeed
2015-06-28T20:20:30Z cl-porky11: yes
2015-06-28T20:20:45Z wobh: I've been tinkering with the pretty printer, and I would bet it's way easier than a compiler.
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2015-06-28T20:25:18Z shka_: Note that "OpenXanadu" means you can see all the parts.
2015-06-28T20:25:19Z shka_:  It is not yet open source.
2015-06-28T20:25:26Z shka_: i hate you so much xanadu
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2015-06-28T20:27:25Z cl-porky11: the problem is, that when I define a read-macro for a object, that is evaluated in the current environment, it has to be of type list, and so will be printed as list
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2015-06-28T20:28:39Z jackdaniel: cl-porky11: what are improvements to lisp you think of
2015-06-28T20:29:42Z cl-porky11: extensible eval with generic functions,
2015-06-28T20:29:57Z cl-porky11: a simpler and more extensible reader
2015-06-28T20:30:18Z jackdaniel: it doesn't say much to me - give example of syntax and usecase for instance
2015-06-28T20:30:26Z jackdaniel: and why it can't be done in lisp
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2015-06-28T20:32:31Z jackdaniel: s/lisp/cl/
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2015-06-28T20:34:50Z pjb: there are alraedy generic functions in CL, and eval is extensible by definition of functions and macros.  The reader is extensible with reader macros and dispatching reader macros.
2015-06-28T20:34:57Z pjb: What else would you want?
2015-06-28T20:35:01Z cl-porky11: maybe a string-reader where all expressions after "~" are evaluated at run-time. normally I would have to convert "ab~(+ c d)e~f" into (concatenate 'string "ab" (write-to-string (+ c d)) "e" (write-to-string f))
2015-06-28T20:35:14Z pjb: So write a reader macro.
2015-06-28T20:35:23Z pjb: You don't need to extend the language!
2015-06-28T20:35:34Z pjb: No need for a new standard.
2015-06-28T20:35:38Z Bike: yeah, that's just cl-interpol. you write #"whatever" instead of "whatever".
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2015-06-28T20:35:50Z Bike: or maybe #?, i forget.
2015-06-28T20:36:16Z cl-porky11: but it will also print as this list, and not as string
2015-06-28T20:36:39Z jackdaniel: cl-porky11: try to write it with reader macros, and if you hit a wall, ask
2015-06-28T20:36:44Z pjb: cl-porky11: NOPE.
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2015-06-28T20:36:59Z pjb: cl-porky11: you can define your reader macro as you wish. Take example on sbcl backquote reader macro!
2015-06-28T20:37:18Z Bike: you could have it expand into (interpolate ...), and then put a pretty printer on (cons (eql interpolate)) to get the string back.
2015-06-28T20:37:21Z cl-porky11: yes, i know reader-macros
2015-06-28T20:37:24Z pjb: cl-porky11: looks like you don't know enough yet.  This is not surprising, only people who don't know CL want a new standard…
2015-06-28T20:37:46Z jackdaniel: cl-porky11: I have impression, that you havent clarified your improvements even for yourself
2015-06-28T20:38:42Z Bike: you could also do it through having the evaluator special case some structured object, but i don't think that's actually a better solution.
2015-06-28T20:38:52Z jackdaniel: think about it and try to implement it in cl, if you find a strong evidence, that it can't be done with reader macros, then explain why
2015-06-28T20:39:17Z cl-porky11: I didn't really get the pretty printer yet, I will have to read more about it
2015-06-28T20:39:21Z Bike: they're not talking about the reader macro, they're talking about the printing. which like me and pjb said you can do without an extension.
2015-06-28T20:39:56Z H4ns: "let's discuss how cl can be improved"
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2015-06-28T20:40:16Z Bike: sbcl's backquote does a similar thing, the expansion involves a lot of special structures, but they didn't special case the evaluator just for that, they just added a macro/function/whatever it is.
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2015-06-28T20:41:09Z Bike: e.g. try (write '`(a ,b c) :pretty nil)
2015-06-28T20:41:12Z shka_: pjb: oh, i wouldn't mind standard with threads and sockets
2015-06-28T20:41:30Z shka_: but i guess it dosen't solve anything at this point
2015-06-28T20:41:34Z pjb: Ask ANSI C.
2015-06-28T20:42:15Z shka_: pjb: c is used on embededd systems as well
2015-06-28T20:42:37Z shka_: it is a bit silly to expect sockets implementation on platform that does not run os
2015-06-28T20:42:45Z shka_: right?
2015-06-28T20:43:15Z Bike: you could always divide a standard into units that can be implemented or not.
2015-06-28T20:43:22Z pjb: That said, one could specify some semantics in relation with threads indeed.  But there are so many variant in system features and of possible parallism models, that it'd still be hard to make it into the language.
2015-06-28T20:43:26Z jackdaniel: clhs could standarize some stuff anyways
2015-06-28T20:43:39Z pjb: It's better to leave it to libraries (even if they need implementation specific support).
2015-06-28T20:43:42Z jackdaniel: threads is a great example
2015-06-28T20:43:55Z pjb: Socket definitely should not be in the standard.
2015-06-28T20:43:55Z shka_: jackdaniel: yup
2015-06-28T20:44:16Z shka_: well, it is not even big problem thanks to libs
2015-06-28T20:44:40Z pjb: Now how many million dollars do you have to hire and send employees to the standardization commitee for a few years?
2015-06-28T20:44:49Z jackdaniel: gn all \o
2015-06-28T20:44:56Z shka_: … that's not the point
2015-06-28T20:45:15Z jackdaniel: pjb: I believe a few languages doesn't requrie millions of dollars to make agreement
2015-06-28T20:45:22Z jackdaniel: on something
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2015-06-28T20:45:26Z pjb: Until you've got them, shut up, start up a company (you may use lisp), and exit it for those millions. Then you'll be able to come back and discuss new standard.
2015-06-28T20:45:35Z jackdaniel: but it might be coherent to lisp (not)obviously
2015-06-28T20:45:40Z pjb: jackdaniel: there are tens of CL implementations.
2015-06-28T20:45:47Z pjb: Including commercial ones!
2015-06-28T20:45:48Z shka_: pjb: i think that you are simply getting rude
2015-06-28T20:46:05Z pjb: No, this is a discussion that has occured hundreds of times here.
2015-06-28T20:46:07Z cl-porky11: the pretty-printer seems like an acceptable solution for the things I want
2015-06-28T20:46:10Z pjb: Check the logs.
2015-06-28T20:46:18Z jackdaniel: pjb: i consider this millions dollars and years argument silly and overused
2015-06-28T20:46:30Z jackdaniel: ive heard it here at least a few times
2015-06-28T20:46:30Z shka_: pjb: do i really look like i have that much tmie?
2015-06-28T20:46:44Z pjb: This is the reason why people set up web sites to re-standardize CL  and nothing NEVER comes out of it.
2015-06-28T20:46:45Z jackdaniel: and not even once it sounded reasonable
2015-06-28T20:46:54Z pjb: It occurs once every pair of year!
2015-06-28T20:47:30Z shka_: well, to be honest at this point there is a little point in doing so
2015-06-28T20:47:35Z jackdaniel: failures arent proof of lack of evidence in math, neither lack of success is evidence of impossibility of something
2015-06-28T20:47:59Z pjb: This is not math, this is human resources.
2015-06-28T20:48:16Z tmtwd: um, lisp macros seem somewhat similar to c macros
2015-06-28T20:48:50Z mea-culpa: about implementations, does anybody know an article to read that compares them (especially by extensions they provide)?
2015-06-28T20:49:01Z nyef: You want a new Lisp standard? Determine that it is necessary (for whatever reason), determine what it will cost (in time, effort, and money) to create and implement it, decide to pay that cost personally if nobody else will assist, and then get started.
2015-06-28T20:49:57Z shka_: tmtwd: you got wrong impression
2015-06-28T20:50:13Z Shinmera: Or: get started right away and learn the futility of it all after some period of time.
2015-06-28T20:50:24Z shka_: tmtwd: namely: c macros just operate on text
2015-06-28T20:50:36Z shka_: lisp macros operate on lists
2015-06-28T20:50:43Z tmtwd: ah, right
2015-06-28T20:50:44Z tmtwd: ok
2015-06-28T20:50:47Z pjb: tmtwd: why didn't you read Barksi as I told you to do?
2015-06-28T20:51:00Z pjb: tmtwd: Go read: Casting Spels in Lisp  Conrad Barski, M.D.  http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html
2015-06-28T20:51:00Z jackdaniel: gn all o/
2015-06-28T20:51:05Z tmtwd: lol?
2015-06-28T20:51:11Z tmtwd: ah okay
2015-06-28T20:51:20Z jackdaniel: you know, like (mapcar #'fireball enemies)
2015-06-28T20:51:21Z tmtwd: i think I've already read that
2015-06-28T20:51:35Z shka_: jackdaniel: i want that
2015-06-28T20:51:52Z shka_: (mapcare #
2015-06-28T20:52:01Z shka_: mapcar #'nuke enemies)
2015-06-28T20:52:06Z shka_: awesome
2015-06-28T20:52:12Z shka_: makes me feel great
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2015-06-28T21:06:13Z edgar-rft: mea-culpa: AFAIK the only semi-up-to-date article comparing Lisp implementations is Dan Weinreb's Lisp Survey: https://common-lisp.net/~dlw/LispSurvey.html
2015-06-28T21:07:11Z mea-culpa: edgar-rft: Thanks!
2015-06-28T21:07:57Z p_l: nyef: btw, has your nq-clim got a command-processor? ;D
2015-06-28T21:11:19Z nyef: p_l: Not yet.
2015-06-28T21:11:32Z p_l: nyef: eh, pity
2015-06-28T21:11:42Z nyef: What with not yet even having any input handling worth mentioning.
2015-06-28T21:11:56Z p_l: I've been looking for a portable variant, even simplified, to be used for command-line input or scripts
2015-06-28T21:12:12Z nyef: Ah.
2015-06-28T21:12:41Z nyef: I've been considering trying to build a CLIM-style input editor for terminal work.
2015-06-28T21:14:39Z p_l: nyef: I have an idea for two uses of such right now - one is for pun-ical ;) reasons involving emulating FEP boot scripts in linux (for booting snap5-based OpenGenera instances), another is in particularly vile and incomprehensible implementation of a certain task at work
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2015-06-28T21:17:09Z p_l: that said, in what state of usability is McCLIM today?
2015-06-28T21:17:43Z tmtwd: uh (defmacro defspel (&rest rest) `(defmacro ,@rest)) makes defspel an exact synonym for defmacro?
2015-06-28T21:17:49Z nyef: I have no idea about McCLIM these days.
2015-06-28T21:17:53Z p_l: tmtwd: afaik yes
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2015-06-28T21:19:31Z tmtwd: where can I find a list of what & , ' ` @ mean in lisp?
2015-06-28T21:19:47Z pjb: tmtwd: in the chapter 2 syntax.
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2015-06-28T21:20:19Z pjb: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_.htm
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2015-06-28T21:22:02Z p_l: & by itself has no meaning (it's used in few special names used in lambda lists), ' ` , and ,@ have special meanings (quasiquotation)
2015-06-28T21:22:09Z aeth: (mapcar #'fireball enemies) and not (map nil #'fireball enemies)? I think fireballs have side effects.
2015-06-28T21:22:20Z p_l: hyperspec has the definite answer
2015-06-28T21:22:41Z p_l: aeth: well, it works in that case ;)
2015-06-28T21:22:51Z tmtwd: ah, so ` , @ are just variations in function of '?
2015-06-28T21:23:00Z pjb: no.
2015-06-28T21:23:08Z pjb: they're variations of list append cons etc.
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2015-06-28T22:37:59Z jasom: scymtym: mrottenkolber the fix for list* is merged to optima now
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2015-06-28T22:39:54Z drmeister: jackdaniel: Are you still online?
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2015-06-28T22:45:25Z aeth: When building languages on top of CL how do people usually handle variables/functions?
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2015-06-28T22:51:50Z mea-culpa: let converts to lambda, how does labels work? symbol-function accesses global function slots.
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2015-06-28T22:52:31Z p_l: aeth: using lisp environments, possibly with some scope wrangling
2015-06-28T22:52:47Z p_l: aeth: at least so long as you are using CL as implementation target
2015-06-28T22:54:18Z emaczen: I finally have an ECL-android installation and have rooted my android device. Now when I try to run ecl on it, it says: ecl[1]: syntax error: '(3 binary characters)4hKH4' unexpected.
2015-06-28T22:56:19Z p_l: aeth: I don't have my copy of PAIP handy, but you might want to look at how it handles this issue in the compilers and interpreters included in it
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2015-06-28T22:57:49Z mea-culpa: or are labels and flet so primitive, that they are impossible to write?
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2015-06-28T22:58:45Z nyef: mea-culpa: They're basically impossible to write without using a codewalker.
2015-06-28T22:58:48Z Xach: mea-culpa: see http://www.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html
2015-06-28T23:00:47Z drmeister: What decides the radix of DECODE-FLOAT?  It appears to be 2 but I don't see what decides it.
2015-06-28T23:01:15Z nyef: clhs decode-float
2015-06-28T23:01:15Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dec_fl.htm
2015-06-28T23:01:44Z drmeister: The value of "b"
2015-06-28T23:02:59Z nyef: Hrm.
2015-06-28T23:03:15Z nyef: I have no idea.
2015-06-28T23:03:39Z nyef: ISTR, however, that Common Lisp floats differ from IEEE floats in some ways.
2015-06-28T23:03:55Z nyef is not particularly good with floats.
2015-06-28T23:06:31Z drmeister: It might be (float-radix xxx)
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2015-06-28T23:20:50Z mea-culpa: if I have an uninterned symbol that has data or function slots occupied which then becomes inaccessible, everything is allowed to be garbage-collected?
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2015-06-28T23:32:04Z scymtym: jasom: great, thanks again
2015-06-28T23:34:35Z Bike: mea-culpa: probably
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2015-06-29T01:11:23Z nyef: I seem to have last December's quicklisp dist installed, along with SBCL 1.2.13. Am I likely to run into any problems if I update to the latest quicklisp dist, or should I wait until the next quicklisp realease?
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2015-06-29T03:05:34Z papachan: hi
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2015-06-29T03:06:16Z loke: nyef: a lot has changed of course
2015-06-29T03:06:37Z loke: nyef: No one can say if you'll have troubles. Why don’t you try it?
2015-06-29T03:06:54Z nyef: I'm considering it as an option.
2015-06-29T03:07:13Z nyef: Not likely to try it tonight, or too early tomorrow, though.
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2015-06-29T03:08:15Z papachan: in common lisp is there a possible solution to translate this script in scheme?
2015-06-29T03:08:41Z papachan: http://paste.awesom.eu/raw/papachan/U2Q7
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2015-06-29T03:10:08Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-06-29T03:10:09Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-06-29T03:10:12Z Zhivago: papchan: Sure.
2015-06-29T03:10:51Z papachan: Zhivago: i have tried but without success :p
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2015-06-29T03:11:00Z loke: hello beach
2015-06-29T03:11:05Z Zhivago: papchan: That can happen.
2015-06-29T03:11:08Z papachan: may with format?
2015-06-29T03:11:32Z Zhivago: papchan: I suggest that you look at what each of the operations does -- there is a corresponding CL operator.
2015-06-29T03:12:40Z papachan: can you be more explicit?
2015-06-29T03:12:43Z wobh: I don't think it would be considered portable.
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2015-06-29T03:13:18Z Zhivago: papachan: Not really.
2015-06-29T03:13:20Z loke: papachan: In cl it would be something like:
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2015-06-29T03:14:01Z loke: papachan: (map 'string (lambda (ch) (code-char (1+ (char-code ch))) "HAL")
2015-06-29T03:14:28Z loke: one more paren before hal
2015-06-29T03:14:34Z wobh: Pretty sure the CL standard says that the ordering of char-codes is implementation dependent.
2015-06-29T03:15:01Z loke: wobh: that said, I'm pretty sure all current CL'
2015-06-29T03:15:09Z wobh: for example, You could end up with "hal".
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2015-06-29T03:15:12Z loke: wobh: that said, I'm pretty sure all current CL's implement char code as Unicode code points
2015-06-29T03:15:30Z loke: Not many EBCDIC Lisps in use
2015-06-29T03:15:43Z Zhivago: Just makes them that much better.
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2015-06-29T03:17:23Z wobh: Even so, I'd define "add1" and "char->integer" to do what was expected.
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2015-06-29T03:18:06Z loke: wobh: You do that. :-)
2015-06-29T03:18:32Z nyef: loke: Though, at least, EBCDIC is a supported external format for at least one implementation. (-:
2015-06-29T03:19:09Z loke: nyef: External format, yes. but external formats doesn't affect the value of char-code
2015-06-29T03:19:19Z nyef: True.
2015-06-29T03:19:27Z loke: I challenge you to find one that doesn't return Unicode code points these days
2015-06-29T03:19:33Z Zhivago: Just write one.
2015-06-29T03:19:38Z nyef: s/find/make/? (-:
2015-06-29T03:19:46Z loke: Zhivago: OK. you do that, and you'll ahve proven me wring.
2015-06-29T03:19:51Z Zhivago: But first get the money in escrow.
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2015-06-29T03:20:11Z Bike: probably scieneer or some dumb shit like that
2015-06-29T03:20:51Z loke: Bike: it's probably ASCII only, which incidentally is a proper subset of Unicode
2015-06-29T03:21:28Z loke: The only one that cause trouble is EBCDIC. Is there a CL on zOS?
2015-06-29T03:22:23Z Bike: could also be kcl. might be a shift-jis mode.
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2015-06-29T03:23:02Z loke: Bike: Shift-jis internally? Doesn't make much sense. What would code-char even return then?
2015-06-29T03:23:06Z loke: I mean char-chode
2015-06-29T03:23:58Z loke: "Support ended in 1995": http://www.lookupmainframesoftware.com/soft_detail/dispsoft/1362
2015-06-29T03:24:15Z wobh: Unicode only gives you more problems.
2015-06-29T03:24:28Z loke: wobh: Than what?
2015-06-29T03:25:35Z wobh: Not so much with this little snippet, but other things you might naively try to do with strings, like reverse them.
2015-06-29T03:25:53Z nyef: Actually, I'd wonder if pre-Unicode OpenMCL would have used Mac OS Roman as the internal encoding?
2015-06-29T03:25:59Z loke: Key word here is "naïvely"
2015-06-29T03:26:43Z wobh: Score one for sbcl.
2015-06-29T03:26:58Z wobh: CL-USER> (reverse "naïvely")
2015-06-29T03:26:58Z loke: wobh: And seriously, when was the last time you had the need to reverse a text string? I'm honestly interested in the use case because I certainly can't think of any.
2015-06-29T03:26:58Z wobh: "ylevïan"
2015-06-29T03:27:18Z loke: Event the _concept_ of reversing a text string doesn't even make sense in many languages.
2015-06-29T03:28:06Z wobh: I transpose letters multiple times a day, pretty much every day.
2015-06-29T03:28:25Z wobh: I'm glad my editor is smart about it.
2015-06-29T03:28:26Z loke: wobh: you mean you are fixing typos
2015-06-29T03:29:14Z loke: wobh: Which works fine and doesn't require anything magic in writing systems where moving letters around makes sense.
2015-06-29T03:29:34Z loke: wobh: I was referring to the general case, which is what you implicitly were suggesting
2015-06-29T03:30:19Z loke: papachan: Please don't send private messages. Especially in languages that you have not confirmed that I speak.
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2015-06-29T03:39:09Z Zhivago: This is why characters are a completely useless concept for text processing. :)
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2015-06-29T03:43:12Z wobh: (minus one for sbcl)
2015-06-29T03:43:27Z wobh: CL-USER> (char-upcase #\ς)
2015-06-29T03:43:27Z wobh: #\GREEK_SMALL_LETTER_FINAL_SIGMA
2015-06-29T03:45:53Z wobh: Anyway, all I'm trying to say is that dealing with text means dealing with a stack of non-obvious assumptions with odd corner cases.
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2015-06-29T03:46:56Z wobh: If one's concern is simple enough it wouldn't cost much to make the it explicit.
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2015-06-29T03:47:15Z loke: wobh: Exactly, and that's the reason Unicode is messy. Because languages and writing systems are messy.
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2015-06-29T03:51:43Z aeth: Wait, char-upcase doesn't make final sigma and sigma into upper case sigma in sbcl? Wow.
2015-06-29T03:52:00Z aeth: Is there a unicode-friendly library for stuff like that?
2015-06-29T03:52:05Z wobh: It's probably a bug
2015-06-29T03:52:48Z aeth: wobh: it seems like all Unicode is that way so it's either an accidental or on purpose unimplemented feature
2015-06-29T03:53:02Z aeth: e.g. (char-upcase #\в)
2015-06-29T03:53:18Z aeth: even (char-upcase #\é)
2015-06-29T03:53:35Z wobh: oh, it works for regular sigma
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2015-06-29T03:54:37Z Zhivago: aeth: You can't upcase chars -- because chars are the wrong unit of text.
2015-06-29T03:54:50Z loke: aerique: try (SB-UNICODE:UPPERCASE)
2015-06-29T03:55:09Z Zhivago: aeth: You can upcase strings which are formed of complete combining character sequences.
2015-06-29T03:56:01Z loke: SB-UNICODE:UPPERCASE converts it to GREEK CAPITAL LETTER SIGMA
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2015-06-29T03:56:40Z Bike: aeth: both those work for me. maybe it's some locale thing.
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2015-06-29T04:12:06Z wobh: This kind of sucks but http://paste.lisp.org/display/150774
2015-06-29T04:12:37Z slaterr: how do I write a newline in a string literal?
2015-06-29T04:12:38Z wobh: It's got one weird trick
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2015-06-29T04:14:55Z wobh: slaterr: press enter
2015-06-29T04:15:24Z slaterr: wobb is that a joke?
2015-06-29T04:15:32Z wobh: a little bit.
2015-06-29T04:16:35Z Bike: slaterr: if you put in an actual newline it'll be in the string, though
2015-06-29T04:16:52Z Bike: (length "asdf
2015-06-29T04:16:54Z Bike: ") => 5
2015-06-29T04:19:38Z wobh: I pretty much turn to `format' if a string requires any kind of formatting.
2015-06-29T04:20:00Z slaterr: Bike ...
2015-06-29T04:20:19Z slaterr: I've been gogling.. is there no \n equivalent?
2015-06-29T04:20:38Z wobh: Not officially.
2015-06-29T04:20:45Z wobh: I think you can use \n in clisp
2015-06-29T04:20:52Z slaterr: i am using sbcl
2015-06-29T04:21:15Z theos: format can do newline
2015-06-29T04:21:16Z Bike: slaterr: no, there is not.
2015-06-29T04:21:29Z Bike: slaterr: as wobh alluded to you could do (format nil "stuff~c" #\Newline).
2015-06-29T04:21:42Z wobh: ~%
2015-06-29T04:21:59Z Bike: that had honestly never occured to me, but yes.
2015-06-29T04:22:15Z loke: slaterr: you don't need \n because you can simply press newline in a string itself, like bike said
2015-06-29T04:22:23Z wobh: (format nil "~A~%" string-literal)
2015-06-29T04:22:25Z slaterr: what a joke
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2015-06-29T04:23:01Z Bike: well, you don't need explicit ones as much as you do in c.
2015-06-29T04:23:13Z wobh: If you expect it to be on it's own line, (format nil "~&~A~%" string-literal)
2015-06-29T04:23:50Z Bike: print throws in a leading newline for instance.
2015-06-29T04:24:04Z aeth: Interesting. For me sb-unicode:uppercase correctly handles both sigma and final sigma, but string-upcase only correctly handles sigma
2015-06-29T04:24:15Z aeth: (it just returns final sigma for final sigma)
2015-06-29T04:24:34Z H4ns: slaterr: what are you trying to do?  maybe you're trying something that cl offers a better solution for?
2015-06-29T04:24:36Z theos: (format t "lisp is beautiful.~%")
2015-06-29T04:25:30Z loke: aeth: SB-UNICODE implements the full Unicode support. Use it if you need Unicode :-)
2015-06-29T04:25:38Z loke: I mean, if you need the full unicode rules
2015-06-29T04:28:07Z aeth: so... for any string that is received from the user over the Internet?
2015-06-29T04:28:30Z loke: aeth: No. Why would it?
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2015-06-29T04:28:58Z loke: Uppercasing, for example, is something you actually very rarely need to do (or even should do)
2015-06-29T04:31:35Z wobh: Although I take loke's point, it does remind me of my favorite conversational turn at work: "Oh that'll hardly ever happen" or "There's only 100 cases in production."
2015-06-29T04:32:00Z wobh: "No one uses that feature for that."
2015-06-29T04:32:49Z loke: wobh: That's why I said "very rarely". The Unicode case conversion rules are there for a reason. They are sometimes needed. But like I said, they are very rarely needed.
2015-06-29T04:33:27Z wobh: oh, definitely.
2015-06-29T04:33:32Z loke: And when people _do_ use them, they are usually using them wrong, creating broken code.
2015-06-29T04:34:18Z Bike: is there a "falsehoods programmers believe about scripts" like the others in that series? i suppose at least a few people have probably written one
2015-06-29T04:34:58Z aeth: Bike: well the names one is sort of applicable. http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-names/
2015-06-29T04:35:40Z aeth: because any place where you want someone to input their name, you can't really do that without Unicode (and even Unicode is probably not enough)
2015-06-29T04:35:49Z wobh: Falsehoods programmer's believe considered harmful
2015-06-29T04:36:25Z Bike: burmese conveniently both serves as a good fuck-you for dumb ideas about names and for dumb ideas about scripts. man that's a funky unicode advisory thing
2015-06-29T04:36:44Z slaterr: aeth I like the falsehoods about time
2015-06-29T04:37:08Z aeth: this? http://infiniteundo.com/post/25326999628/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-time
2015-06-29T04:37:12Z slaterr: http://www.wired.com/2012/06/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-time/
2015-06-29T04:37:23Z wobh: (Lately, my fingers want to put apostrophes everywhere they don't belong. What is up with that?)
2015-06-29T04:37:43Z wobh: (type better!!1!)
2015-06-29T04:37:56Z Bike: that one lisp guy wrote a thing like the time one, but the name wasn't as catchy, perhaps
2015-06-29T04:38:59Z loke: Bike: I don't know anything about Burmese? Is there aspects of it that makes it more difficult to deal with than Devanagari, Thai or Arabic?
2015-06-29T04:39:13Z Bike: hm, i don't know where the thing i'm thinking of went. a normalization for burmese that involved about a page of regexes
2015-06-29T04:39:38Z Bike: probably not. just the general people-designing-the-internet-never-heard-of-it-ness, along with some political considerations that make things slightly difficult.
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2015-06-29T04:41:29Z loke: Hmm:
2015-06-29T04:41:34Z loke: For example, the Burmese word သမီး "daughter" is sometimes abbreviated to သ္မီး
2015-06-29T04:41:58Z Bike: i think that second one managed to put a circle in my status bar.
2015-06-29T04:42:06Z Bike: yes it did, and it's not going away. lovely job, shell.
2015-06-29T04:43:08Z wobh: Burmese looks pretty cool.
2015-06-29T04:43:16Z Bike: as for names, burmese people often just have one. like good old thant, who everyone called u thant because that's how things go in this here westernized world
2015-06-29T04:43:19Z aeth: You know what would be great but very hard to do? An internationalized FORMAT. For things like ~P and ~R
2015-06-29T04:43:20Z loke: Wow... I just pasted this into Emacs: စက္ကူ
2015-06-29T04:43:29Z loke: It looks nothing like what I copied.
2015-06-29T04:43:45Z Bike: wow, you're right.
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2015-06-29T04:44:28Z Bike: aeth: gotta extend ~r to cover hebrew numerology
2015-06-29T04:44:36Z theos: thant is a decent name for a woman
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2015-06-29T04:45:56Z theos tries to pronounce polish names
2015-06-29T04:46:50Z loke: theos: Don't. You'll fail.
2015-06-29T04:47:15Z loke: theos: You should try pronouncing swedish words instead
2015-06-29T04:47:33Z loke: Try saying 777 (sjuhundrasjuttiosju)
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2015-06-29T04:48:05Z theos: sjuhundrasjuttiosju
2015-06-29T04:48:10Z Bike: what's ~p again, pluralization? that would suck, you'd have to cover gender and duals and ugh
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2015-06-29T04:48:58Z aeth: see? that's why we need a (format-international :swedish nil "~r" 777)
2015-06-29T04:48:59Z Bike: well, the one in the standard is weak anyhow.
2015-06-29T04:49:43Z loke: Now speak it. the “sj” in these is a voiceless dorso-palatal velar fricative
2015-06-29T04:49:48Z theos: loke i can pronounce almost anything. grew up speaking sanskrit and arabic among other languages
2015-06-29T04:49:48Z Bike: figuring out how to pluralize a word is probably AI-complete
2015-06-29T04:50:08Z loke: theos: Good. Because the ɧ sound is unique to Swedish :-)
2015-06-29T04:50:08Z aeth: Bike: well for a lot of languages it's just a matter of looking it up in a table
2015-06-29T04:50:12Z aeth: Bike: a finite table
2015-06-29T04:50:17Z aeth: mostly regular
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2015-06-29T04:50:26Z Bike: mostly finite
2015-06-29T04:50:42Z theos: we should write an AI in CL to speak languages like french, polish etc
2015-06-29T04:50:42Z loke: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sj-sound
2015-06-29T04:51:00Z aeth: The computer can even guess. So e.g. -a is usually -e in Italian and usually -as in Spanish and English, etc. But probably not always because languages are messy.
2015-06-29T04:51:21Z Bike: if you told me the plural of "borogoves" was "borogoven" i'd probably say you were wrong
2015-06-29T04:51:22Z aeth: So if it's not in the table it can just use a sensible default that's usually right
2015-06-29T04:51:41Z Bike: plural of "borogove", rather
2015-06-29T04:51:58Z theos: loke saaaa afffaaa?
2015-06-29T04:52:09Z loke: theos: Wha?
2015-06-29T04:53:01Z theos: loke the sound file on that link sounds like saaa affaaa or assaaaa
2015-06-29T04:53:22Z loke: I don't know. I don't have any speakers or headphones on this computer so I can't hear it.
2015-06-29T04:53:35Z Bike: "With nouns ending in o preceded by a consonant, the plural in many cases is spelled by adding -es. However many nouns of foreign origin, including almost all Italian loanwords, add only -s" hee hee.
2015-06-29T04:53:44Z Bike: you could spend your life writing a pluralizer
2015-06-29T04:54:23Z loke: theos: how about this? https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Swedish/The_sje_and_tje_sounds
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2015-06-29T04:54:38Z aeth: Bike: or you could put it up on Github and people will add languages as they need it
2015-06-29T04:54:50Z theos: loke for when you have speakers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3OxCRTg8iE
2015-06-29T04:55:01Z loke: Bike: Yes. And then you have russian where the plural suffies are fifferent depending on the last digit of the number of things.
2015-06-29T04:55:02Z Bike: aeth: forever!!
2015-06-29T04:55:25Z Bike: loke: yeah, that's why i mentioned gender and stuff earlier. i don't think the pluralization is always independent of the context, but i'm only a monoglot so i don't know certainly.
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2015-06-29T04:55:48Z aeth: Bike: well languages are always changing so it's not like you can have a language library that will be perfect and complete even if you could hypothetically make one that is perfect and complete for 2015
2015-06-29T04:55:52Z Bike: oh, conveniently wikipedia provides an english example, "stone" is pluralized differently depending on the sense used.
2015-06-29T04:56:09Z Bike: aeth: which is why i'm pretty much okay with the stupid ~p in the standard, yeah.
2015-06-29T04:56:19Z nyef: ... Wait, "stone"? Isn't that a VERB?
2015-06-29T04:56:36Z aeth throws a stone at nyef 
2015-06-29T04:56:47Z nyef: See? To stone!
2015-06-29T04:56:50Z loke stone Bike
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2015-06-29T04:56:53Z Bike: "the four stones weigh four stone"
2015-06-29T04:57:23Z aeth: Bike: yes but we'll only have to worry about that in format-international :en-uk
2015-06-29T04:57:31Z Bike: from now on i'm going to imagine nyef lives somewhere he never deals with rocks.
2015-06-29T04:57:44Z Bike: "stone? isn't that a bible thing? wait, stones actually exist?"
2015-06-29T04:57:56Z aeth: Bike: but there are rocks everywhere... except maybe on a space station or something
2015-06-29T04:58:01Z nyef: Ah, the unit of measure. I'd forgotten about that one, and I really shouldn't have.
2015-06-29T04:58:09Z wobh: I would not feel so all alone
2015-06-29T04:58:17Z aeth: Does format handle units? Because format-international should :-p
2015-06-29T04:58:32Z Bike: some basic metric would be nice.
2015-06-29T04:58:52Z aeth: yeah, units would be easier than language (at least within one language)
2015-06-29T04:58:56Z Bike: i'd eventually start throwing microsiemens per kilohenry at it, though.
2015-06-29T04:59:10Z aeth: I have an evil idea
2015-06-29T04:59:24Z aeth: we should try to get this in the next CL standard if anyone puts together a serious effort at it
2015-06-29T05:00:30Z Bike: or 200 millifarad/kilosiemen, which is more conventionally described as 200 microseconds
2015-06-29T05:00:42Z Bike: seems like a library thing to me. i think there's some library for it
2015-06-29T05:00:59Z aeth: I have a good name idea for that: format++
2015-06-29T05:01:15Z Bike: oh my, look at all these. http://www.cliki.net/units
2015-06-29T05:01:30Z nyef: Apparently, VMS has some parameter that is ostensibly specified in microfortnights, but is actually interpreted as being in seconds.
2015-06-29T05:01:56Z aeth: Bike: I think those are for seriously dealing with units, though, not printing a unit that is specified in meters using inches instead
2015-06-29T05:02:36Z aeth: because really, it should be converted within an extension of the concept of a format string, rather than in code :-p
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2015-06-29T05:02:47Z aeth: (At least if it's just for display and not used in the program in another place)
2015-06-29T05:02:58Z Bike: well, i'd pretty much want something as good as gnu units at least.
2015-06-29T05:03:29Z Bike: i've been dealing with multiplying microfarads per centimeter by square amperes lately, i don't wanna think about that shit
2015-06-29T05:03:39Z aeth: Well, the idea is that you can code everything in metric and if your silly American users want something else then you can just use this extended FORMAT to handle the output
2015-06-29T05:04:33Z Bike: i'd still want metric to reduce nicely. newtons times meters is joules and such.
2015-06-29T05:04:51Z wobh: bah. Planck units. That's where it's at.
2015-06-29T05:05:08Z aeth: Bike: well yes, what you'd have to do is specify inputs and outputs
2015-06-29T05:05:22Z slaterr: F# has a cool built-in feature called units. units can decorate types, so if you multiply 2 m with 2 m you will get 4 m^2.
2015-06-29T05:05:27Z aeth: so yeah metric->metric is probably easier actually
2015-06-29T05:05:37Z aeth: metric->metric auto-reduce, not sure
2015-06-29T05:06:11Z aeth: slaterr: That would be an interesting complementary feature to this in the same library
2015-06-29T05:06:22Z slaterr: you can add cm to inches, seconds to hours, etc, and the value and the resulting unit will be properly calculated. and if you, say, add meters to seconds you will get an error
2015-06-29T05:06:24Z aeth: so you wouldn't have to specify units when making the format string
2015-06-29T05:06:36Z aeth: I suspect it would use a lot of the same helper functions, anyway
2015-06-29T05:06:59Z slaterr: aeth yeah, I'd like to see something like that implemented as a CL library
2015-06-29T05:07:00Z wobh: This reminds me that I want to figure out Lagrangian mechanics someday.
2015-06-29T05:07:22Z Bike: worried about actions, eh.
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2015-06-29T05:10:24Z aeth: This units thing could then be combined with an internationalization/localization library, too. So different languages could use different units for output by default even if it's all standard metric internally
2015-06-29T05:10:43Z aeth: So e.g. en_US could by default output US-style units instead of metric
2015-06-29T05:11:20Z aeth: "I have to walk 5 meters" vs. "I have to walk 16.4 feet"
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2015-06-29T05:11:55Z wobh: I feel like we're on the verge of reinventing a round thing.
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2015-06-29T05:12:03Z loke: You mean “Metres” obviously.
2015-06-29T05:13:22Z drmeister:  I'd like to print more information on a class in trace - do I specialize print-object and use *print-readably*?
2015-06-29T05:13:25Z aeth: wobh: based on cliki this does some similar things, but it's GPLv2. https://github.com/Ramarren/unit-formula
2015-06-29T05:13:49Z aeth: and obviously not all the things
2015-06-29T05:14:20Z aeth: loke: no it would be "meters", this is en_US with and without unit conversion turned on
2015-06-29T05:14:41Z drmeister: Currently all it prints is:   #<CLEAVIR-ENVIRONMENT:GLOBAL-FUNCTION-INFO @0x10b9d3ac9>
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2015-06-29T05:17:45Z wobh: drmeister: that sounds right
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2015-06-29T05:18:30Z drmeister: wobh: I'd like to print some of the slots in the trace.
2015-06-29T05:18:53Z drmeister: Do you have any suggestions on how to do that in Common Lisp?
2015-06-29T05:20:24Z wobh: I think you're close. You'll make a print-object method but use the print-unreadable-object macro
2015-06-29T05:20:59Z wobh: That'll give you #< ... > where you can put whatever you like in the ...
2015-06-29T05:21:16Z drmeister: Ah - thank you.
2015-06-29T05:23:09Z wobh: I don't think you need *print-readably* unless you actually have a readable expression for your object.
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2015-06-29T05:41:47Z stacky: Hey, does anyone have any good resources for understanding recursion?
2015-06-29T05:42:14Z jasom: stacky: nope
2015-06-29T05:43:20Z stacky: jasom: How would you recomend someone understand the concept? I am reading simply scheme and the book did not help, neither did reddit posts and stackoverflow.
2015-06-29T05:44:33Z slaterr: do you have any specific questions about recursion?
2015-06-29T05:44:40Z slaterr: or do you just plain don't get it
2015-06-29T05:44:50Z aeth: stacky: The Little Schemer (not online, unfortunately) is good for recursion. Obviously Scheme, not Common Lisp
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2015-06-29T05:45:16Z beach: slaterr: There is nothing to understand really.  It just works.
2015-06-29T05:45:29Z beach: slaterr: What seems to be your problem understanding it?
2015-06-29T05:45:32Z stacky: I understand that it is a function that uses itself, thats about it. In the code I don't really understand how it is useful.
2015-06-29T05:45:50Z slaterr: I have no problem understand it, you probably wanted to address that to stacky
2015-06-29T05:45:54Z slaterr: +ing
2015-06-29T05:46:14Z beach: Sorry, I meant stacky
2015-06-29T05:46:22Z slaterr: stacky every iteration can be easily expressed as a recursion (the opposite is not always true)
2015-06-29T05:46:39Z beach: stacky: It is not as useful as many texts will lead you to believe.
2015-06-29T05:46:54Z stacky: How can a function use itself in its own body, would it mean that it is not complete?
2015-06-29T05:47:01Z beach: stacky: But sometimes it is the best way of expressing an algorithm.  Traversing a tree is one example.
2015-06-29T05:47:10Z Bike: sometimes it's convenient to express definitions as recurions. for example, "a natural number is either 0 or one more than a natural number".
2015-06-29T05:47:23Z slaterr: stacky usually there is a base case that breaks the recursion. but it may also be infinite recursion
2015-06-29T05:47:32Z stacky: beach: Its not useful? So Would I be okay without it? Should I skip the chapters and come back later on?
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2015-06-29T05:48:00Z beach: stacky: It is not as useful on linear data structures as Scheme people would like to make you think.
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2015-06-29T05:48:14Z beach: stacky: But it is absolutely necessary for some things like traversing trees.
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2015-06-29T05:48:44Z beach: stacky: Do you know any simple math such as the recursive definition of factorial or Fibonacci?
2015-06-29T05:48:50Z jasom: stacky: in many cases, the recursive representation is more concise than the non-recursive
2015-06-29T05:48:55Z aeth: stacky: try some of the earlier videos here if you want to try watching a lecture instead of reading something. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE18841CABEA24090
2015-06-29T05:49:12Z aeth: I'm not quite sure when it's reduced, but probably one of the first if not the first because it's in Scheme
2015-06-29T05:49:19Z aeth: s/reduced/introduced
2015-06-29T05:49:36Z stacky: aeth: Thats the SICP course, I was going to do that after reading simply scheme.
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2015-06-29T05:50:21Z stacky: aeth: Have you done SICP? Does it do a good job on teaching recursion?
2015-06-29T05:50:33Z beach: stacky: Do you understand a math definition such as 0! = 1; n! = n*(n-1)! for n > 0.
2015-06-29T05:51:04Z beach: Hmm, is 0! = 1?
2015-06-29T05:51:13Z beach: I can't remember how it is defined.
2015-06-29T05:51:14Z jasom: beach: yes
2015-06-29T05:51:20Z beach: Whew!
2015-06-29T05:51:21Z beach: Thanks.
2015-06-29T05:51:25Z Bike: yeah, empty product. or something.
2015-06-29T05:51:39Z aeth: stacky: I've watched some of the videos, I haven't gotten around to doing the book yet
2015-06-29T05:51:46Z stacky: beach: I'm not sure what ! is here, does it refer to "not" like in C?
2015-06-29T05:51:54Z jasom: stacky: factorial
2015-06-29T05:51:56Z Bike: it's something beach is defining.
2015-06-29T05:51:58Z beach: stacky, OK, never mind.
2015-06-29T05:52:09Z Bike: beach is saying "ok, here's a new symbol, this is what it's going to mean", and the definition involves itself.
2015-06-29T05:52:12Z stacky: aeth: Would you say the videos do a good job at teaching the concepts?
2015-06-29T05:52:23Z Bike: in any case, SICP is good at recursion.
2015-06-29T05:52:28Z aeth: stacky: you'll notice really quickly the design pattern they use in these Scheme educational stuff, and it's mostly portable to Common Lisp (you will have to be aware about some Lisp-1/Lisp-2 differences, and optimized recursion won't run on all Common Lisps)
2015-06-29T05:52:37Z aeth: stacky: and yes the videos are good
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2015-06-29T05:52:59Z Bike: oh, right, it's number of permutations. there are one permutations of the empty set
2015-06-29T05:53:18Z aeth: stacky: basically what's done is functions that are made up of conditionals, and the conditions return stuff. You terminate the recursion by returning something that's not a function call.
2015-06-29T05:53:42Z stacky: aeth: Would I have to know anything before watching the videos?
2015-06-29T05:53:45Z aeth: so e.g. if you get to nil you're done
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2015-06-29T05:53:57Z Zhivago: You may also think of recursion as paring off complexity. N(complex) -> some_complexity + N(less_complex).
2015-06-29T05:54:08Z Bike: A man that a woman that a child that a bird that I heard saw knows loves
2015-06-29T05:54:31Z Zhivago: Eventually N(less_complex) becomes trivial, and you have converged on a result.
2015-06-29T05:54:35Z slaterr: in CL recursion can't be used as a general replacement for loops because it is a strict language without guaranteed tail call optimization.
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2015-06-29T05:55:20Z Zhivago: Well, that's really about backtracking.
2015-06-29T05:55:57Z stacky: Have you guys used recursion in practical programs? I did not see it that much in Practical Lisp book, then agian I did not read the whole thing yet.
2015-06-29T05:55:57Z Zhivago: I wish they'd teach that more clearly -- iteration and recursion are equivalent. The only question is how much backtracking you need to support in a given algorithm.
2015-06-29T05:56:50Z jasom: Zhivago: I think that confuses the issue
2015-06-29T05:56:55Z Zhivago: Why?
2015-06-29T05:57:11Z aeth: stacky: I use recursion all the time
2015-06-29T05:57:24Z aeth: Trees.
2015-06-29T05:57:42Z Zhivago: The confusion, imho, comes from using application operators with implicit backtracking support.
2015-06-29T05:57:52Z jasom: Zhivago: because recursion is iteration with an implicit stack.
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2015-06-29T05:58:17Z Zhivago: jasom: But it isn't.
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2015-06-29T05:58:32Z Zhivago: jasom: All iteration is recursive.
2015-06-29T05:58:45Z Zhivago: If you think about what 'recursive' means, it may be clearer.
2015-06-29T05:58:47Z jasom: Zhivago: see, it confuses the issue.
2015-06-29T05:58:51Z Bike: maybe we should just use recursive in the math sense from now on.
2015-06-29T05:59:04Z Zhivago: It's because you're using the terms in a confused fashion. :)
2015-06-29T05:59:45Z aeth: stacky: A lot of the time if there's if/cond/case/etc. on trees, recursion is the easiest way to write things. At least for me. Maybe I've been indoctrinated.
2015-06-29T05:59:46Z Bike: thanks for the smiley, i wasn't sure how condescending this was supposed to be
2015-06-29T06:00:33Z Zhivago: Bike: You might also be confused about what 'condescending' means. :)
2015-06-29T06:01:12Z aeth: Zhivago: I think that is because your version of IRC doesn't support tone of voice or body language, and only has limited support for facial expressions.
2015-06-29T06:01:13Z stacky: aeth: You write most of your stuff in CL?
2015-06-29T06:01:39Z aeth: stacky: The stuff I write for myself tends to be in CL. The stuff I write for other people tends to be in Python.
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2015-06-29T06:02:44Z Zhivago: aeth: To condescend is to imply that you are of some low class, in order to imply by implication that you aren't.
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2015-06-29T06:02:57Z Zhivago: Patronizing, on the other hand, might work.
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2015-06-29T06:03:38Z Bike: implying by implication is a hobby of mine
2015-06-29T06:04:15Z slaterr: now that is a good recursive sentence
2015-06-29T06:04:26Z Zhivago: Bike: A highly suitable choice.
2015-06-29T06:04:32Z wobh: Next up: 'effect' vs, 'affect'. Go!
2015-06-29T06:04:33Z Shinmera: I guess it's never too early to stumble upon a quarrelling
2015-06-29T06:04:39Z jasom: Zhivago: I looked up condescend: "show feelings of superiority; be patronizing"
2015-06-29T06:04:40Z Shinmera: Good morning, #lisp
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2015-06-29T06:05:37Z Zhivago: jason: Now look up the difference between condescending and patronizing.
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2015-06-29T06:06:31Z aeth: Zhivago: Technically speaking dictionaries reflect use so if enough people misuse a word, the misuse is now a correct use.
2015-06-29T06:06:31Z jasom: Zhivago: Since I don't have a differential dictionary: first hit on google claims they are denotationally equivalent
2015-06-29T06:06:32Z theos uses recursion instead of iteration
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2015-06-29T06:07:22Z Zhivago: Ah well, those who cannot use a dictionary are suffered to such.
2015-06-29T06:07:34Z Bike: patronizing, 1, offensively condescending, can we go back to you telling me things and smiling
2015-06-29T06:07:43Z aeth: Those who cannot use a dictionary create a job for the writers of next year's dictionary.
2015-06-29T06:07:59Z slaterr: Zhivago really has a talent for killing a topical conversation
2015-06-29T06:08:28Z Shinmera: Do we really need to devolve this even further?
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2015-06-29T06:09:46Z Zhivago: It was Bike who derailed it.
2015-06-29T06:10:07Z Shinmera: It doesn't matter who did as long a you help keep the derailment going
2015-06-29T06:10:12Z Shinmera: Now talk about lisp again for god's sake
2015-06-29T06:11:01Z wobh: good night
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2015-06-29T08:20:38Z pjb: drmeister: the radix of floating points is decided by either your floating point hardware, or your floating point library implementing this data type and those operations.  Eg. the floating point hardware of IBM 360/370 uses a radix of 16. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Floating_Point_Architecture
2015-06-29T08:21:21Z jackdaniel: drmeister: now I am
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2015-06-29T08:25:50Z pjb: slaterr: if you insist you can type \ RET
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2015-06-29T08:27:49Z pjb: slaterr: notice there is a functional difference between "~%" in CL and "\n" in C.  In the former, the string contains two characters, #\~ and #\%; in the later, it contains a perhaps single byte, probably 10, sometimes 13.
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2015-06-29T08:32:01Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for drmeister: just pm me with question when you're online, it would be easier to scan
2015-06-29T08:32:01Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell drmeister when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-06-29T08:32:22Z jackdaniel: uh, I should have hear my own advice :D
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2015-06-29T09:02:19Z jackdaniel: ha, I know why ecl with threads refueses to compile on openbsd \o/
2015-06-29T09:02:35Z jackdaniel: better, I have a slight idea how to fix it :)
2015-06-29T09:05:41Z dim: drmeister: I'm just finishing my viewing of your talk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X69_42Mj-g) about clasp, and wow, mind blown! congrats!
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2015-06-29T09:31:02Z Baggers: jackdaniel: nice!
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2015-06-29T09:31:58Z jackdaniel: thanks :)
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2015-06-29T09:39:19Z christoph_debian: hm no asdf 3.1.5 so far
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2015-06-29T11:33:19Z francogrex: hi in (directory "/*.*") I get a list of pathnames as expected then with namestring I convert to strings, but can I have it so that theoutput is double backslash instead of the apparently default forward slash?
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2015-06-29T11:34:58Z Xach: francogrex: I'd like to help but I don't understand. Can you give an example of something that is forward slashed that you'd like backslashed?
2015-06-29T11:35:15Z Xach: francogrex: also, be aware that namestring syntax is implementation-dependent.
2015-06-29T11:36:08Z jackdaniel: "my/relative/directory" "my\relative\directory" I guess
2015-06-29T11:36:43Z Xach does not want to guess
2015-06-29T11:37:07Z francogrex: Xach: ok an example I get #P"c:/ztemp/ztest/test.docx while I'd like it to be #P"c:\ztemp\ztest\test.docx
2015-06-29T11:37:20Z Xach: francogrex: why?
2015-06-29T11:37:22Z jackdaniel: \o/
2015-06-29T11:37:31Z scymtym: francogrex: on SBCL/win32 SB-EXT:NATIVE-NAMESTRING could do what you want
2015-06-29T11:38:07Z Xach: Yes, in general, native-namestring (sbcl) or native-translated-namestring (ccl) is the right idea
2015-06-29T11:38:29Z Xach: That's if you want to pass the name to another program that understands the native syntax only
2015-06-29T11:38:38Z Xach: another place, even
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2015-06-29T11:39:09Z francogrex: ok thanks both; the reason why is because I have a package that is only accpting pathnames with \\ and not /
2015-06-29T11:39:32Z francogrex: yes it's only for that purpose
2015-06-29T11:40:21Z Shinmera: scymtym: Why not portable? uiop:native-namestring
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2015-06-29T11:40:39Z scymtym: Shinmera: right, i forgot about that
2015-06-29T11:40:51Z Shinmera: The reverse is uiop:parse-native-namestring
2015-06-29T11:42:22Z Xach: francogrex: package?
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2015-06-29T11:49:01Z Xach: I would use UIOP more if it was available separately from ASDF.
2015-06-29T11:49:13Z Xach: I do not like my programs depending on ASDF.
2015-06-29T11:49:31Z Shinmera: I thought the point of UIOP is that it /is/ available separate from ASDF.
2015-06-29T11:50:07Z Xach: No, the point of UIOP is to piggyback on ASDF's essential nature to create a de facto default standard library.
2015-06-29T11:50:27Z Xach: I would also use UIOP more if it had a reference manual.
2015-06-29T11:50:43Z Shinmera: From the ASDF page: "uiop is useful on its own and can also be compiled and distributed separately."
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2015-06-29T11:54:19Z Xach: I wonder how many libraries that use uiop functions explicitly :depend-on uiop.
2015-06-29T11:54:22Z Xach: I know some do.
2015-06-29T11:54:36Z Shinmera: I used to, then people told me not to do it for some reason that I forgot.
2015-06-29T11:56:18Z Xach: Anyway, in general I dislike anything that adds friction to efforts to replace ASDF with something better, and I think embedding (asdf:foo ...) and (uiop:foo ...) (when uiop is implicitly provided by asdf) in source files adds friction.
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2015-06-29T11:56:53Z Shinmera: Right.
2015-06-29T11:57:20Z Shinmera: I can see more value in that now  that I've gotten more fed up with ASDF's deficiencies.
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2015-06-29T11:59:47Z Xach: Dave Cooper has done a lot to be able to build in a way that strips out the build machinery in the end. I need to learn from what he's done, because I like that concept a lot.
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2015-06-29T12:01:42Z dim: Xach: my libs tend to depend on uiop, explicitely so
2015-06-29T12:01:48Z dim: is there something I should be worried about?
2015-06-29T12:02:06Z Xach: dim: Probably nothing.
2015-06-29T12:02:33Z Xach: I like the idea of uiop but dislike the details.
2015-06-29T12:02:33Z dim: apart from when "we" replace asdf with something new and I have to choose either that new and good thing or uiop?
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2015-06-29T12:02:52Z dim: I dislike plenty of things in uiop, but I'm yet to find something better
2015-06-29T12:03:01Z Xach: dim: I don't think so, if you're explicit.
2015-06-29T12:03:09Z nyef: G'morning all.
2015-06-29T12:03:16Z Shinmera: I've been playing with the thought of writing a replacement lib for it, but right now: No time for it
2015-06-29T12:03:16Z dim: fad isn't better at filenames, iolib isn't better at trivial portability layer, etc etc
2015-06-29T12:03:29Z dim: (iolib is better at others things that I happen not needing)
2015-06-29T12:03:38Z Xach: I don't use iolib because of lfp.
2015-06-29T12:03:44Z dim: same
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2015-06-29T12:04:09Z dim: I've been using it before, then realized the hell of .so dependencies in lisp when shipping binary images to non-lisp users, and stopped that day
2015-06-29T12:04:49Z dim: I still have code using cl-fad tho, because the efforts to switch over to uiop didn't seem like a good way to spend my time
2015-06-29T12:06:45Z francogrex: (delete place list) => style-warning: he return value of DELETE should not be discarded.
2015-06-29T12:06:54Z francogrex: is this because it is destructive?
2015-06-29T12:07:10Z Xach: At ELS I was surprised to be the only person who pronounced it "you ee op"
2015-06-29T12:07:14Z Xach: francogrex: yes
2015-06-29T12:07:21Z nyef: francogrex: What happens if you delete the FIRST place on the list?
2015-06-29T12:07:30Z dim: Xach: what's the other way to pronounce it?
2015-06-29T12:07:43Z Xach: dim: spelled out, "you eye oh pee"
2015-06-29T12:07:44Z dim: "you ee oh pee" I guess?
2015-06-29T12:07:48Z dim: yeah ;-)
2015-06-29T12:07:58Z dim: that's how I think about it, but with a french spelling
2015-06-29T12:08:00Z Xach: you say potato, i say potato
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2015-06-29T12:08:10Z francogrex: i know that it is destructive, i was just trying to understand the 'english' of the message. it's good
2015-06-29T12:09:52Z francogrex: so it should be (setf location (delete place location)) but then how is that different from remove?
2015-06-29T12:10:56Z H4ns: clhs delete
2015-06-29T12:10:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm
2015-06-29T12:11:15Z H4ns: francogrex: remove must make a copy, delete may modify the argument
2015-06-29T12:11:54Z H4ns: francogrex: in a nutshell, use remove unless you know that delete will actually improve the performance of your program and you know that mutation is okay.
2015-06-29T12:12:11Z jackdaniel: you better do (setf list (delete place list))
2015-06-29T12:13:44Z pjb: francogrex: it is not different from remove!  And the standard specifically allow implementations to define delete as (setf (symbol-function 'delete) (symbol-function 'remove)) !!!
2015-06-29T12:14:22Z jackdaniel: anyway typing (delete place list) you may just destroy list
2015-06-29T12:14:32Z jackdaniel: w/o effect you wish to achieve
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2015-06-29T12:17:29Z nyef: Really, the issue is that the CONS cell representing the start of the list on entry to the function may no longer represent the head of the list on exit (that is, it may not be the return value).
2015-06-29T12:17:36Z nyef: Same thing as with SORT.
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2015-06-29T12:18:42Z pjb: What's so hard to understand?
2015-06-29T12:18:53Z nyef: That too.
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2015-06-29T12:19:46Z jackdaniel: weee, my hypothesis was correct
2015-06-29T12:20:22Z pjb: There's the first element, and the last element.
2015-06-29T12:20:23Z jackdaniel: now it's time to fix semaphores of boehm on openbsd :)
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2015-06-29T12:20:53Z pjb: Ie. what happens when you delete the last element remaining in the list (when the list had only one element left).
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2015-06-29T12:28:13Z drmeister: minion: memo for jackdaniel: I had some questions about how to print values from the ECL C code, how to make ECL (I seem to have to make clean; ./configure; make; make install; ecl;  to see a change)
2015-06-29T12:28:14Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jackdaniel when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-06-29T12:28:16Z scymtym: francogrex: did the style-warning literally say "he return value of DELETE should not be discarded." (i.e. "he" instead of "the")? if so, what does (lisp-implementation-version) report?
2015-06-29T12:28:54Z drmeister: minion: memo for jackdaniel: Also, stassats discovered that ECL (and Clasp) have incorrect implementations of define-compiler-macro.
2015-06-29T12:28:54Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jackdaniel when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-06-29T12:29:58Z drmeister: pjb: thank you for that note on floating point radix
2015-06-29T12:30:33Z drmeister: minio: memo for dim: Thank you for your kind words about my talk.
2015-06-29T12:30:48Z drmeister: minion: memo for dim: Thank you for your kind words about my talk.
2015-06-29T12:30:48Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell dim when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-06-29T12:31:46Z drmeister dusts off his hands.
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2015-06-29T12:32:49Z dim: hi drmeister! got both the memo and the original message ;-)
2015-06-29T12:32:49Z minion: dim, memo from drmeister: Thank you for your kind words about my talk.
2015-06-29T12:32:52Z dim: hehe
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2015-06-29T12:40:00Z drmeister: I need a better implementation of define-compiler-macro.  (define-compiler-macro foo (...) ...)  the comiler macro must handle (funcall (function foo) ...) as well as (foo ...)
2015-06-29T12:40:52Z jackdaniel: drmeister: do you have somewhere description of this bug?
2015-06-29T12:40:52Z minion: jackdaniel, memo from drmeister: I had some questions about how to print values from the ECL C code, how to make ECL (I seem to have to make clean; ./configure; make; make install; ecl;  to see a change)
2015-06-29T12:40:52Z minion: jackdaniel, memo from drmeister: Also, stassats discovered that ECL (and Clasp) have incorrect implementations of define-compiler-macro.
2015-06-29T12:41:20Z nyef: Wait, "must" handle?
2015-06-29T12:41:45Z nyef: I was under the distinct impression that implementations were allowed to do as much, or as little, with compiler macros as they wished?
2015-06-29T12:41:45Z fe[nl]ix: drmeister: how about approaching it at the level of the IR ?
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2015-06-29T12:43:15Z drmeister: jackdaniel: Here is an example of what is wrong with our define-compiler-macro implementation:
2015-06-29T12:43:17Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/Fm0WURMD/
2015-06-29T12:43:21Z |3b|: drmeister: isn't the part that expands the compiler macro supposed to handle funcall?
2015-06-29T12:44:39Z drmeister: fe[nl]ix: LLVM will inline function calls but not FUNCALL
2015-06-29T12:44:57Z jackdaniel: drmeister: in c code you can call cl_format for instance, as well as cl_print
2015-06-29T12:45:07Z jackdaniel: and provide cl_object as an argument
2015-06-29T12:45:13Z jackdaniel: (to the latter)
2015-06-29T12:45:34Z |3b|: drmeister: the function created by define-compiler-macro should only see the expanded args outside the &whole argument, not the funcall form
2015-06-29T12:45:56Z fe[nl]ix: drmeister: a plain function call is equivalent to certain funcall and apply forms
2015-06-29T12:46:13Z drmeister: |3b| The problem is that the output of that example above is different for ECL/Clasp and SBCL.
2015-06-29T12:46:25Z |3b|: drmeister: yeah, reading more closely i may be wrong :/
2015-06-29T12:46:31Z drmeister: ECL/Clasp don't handle the (funcall (function foo) ...) case properly.
2015-06-29T12:46:36Z fe[nl]ix: drmeister: so if you canonicalize the call sites, define-compiler-macro won't tell the difference
2015-06-29T12:46:45Z |3b|: drmeister: right, sorry for the noise
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2015-06-29T12:47:07Z drmeister: fe[nl]ix: Canonicalize the call sites?
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2015-06-29T12:47:55Z fe[nl]ix: make sure that (foo 1), (funcall #'foo 1) and (apply #'foo '(1)) result in the same IR
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2015-06-29T12:48:52Z |3b|: fe[nl]ix: compiler macro can see the funcall in the &whole arg per the spec, so you can't canonicalize it before expanding the compiler macro
2015-06-29T12:49:13Z drmeister: Yes, that's the trick - except (apply #'foo ...)  That's not touched by compiler macros
2015-06-29T12:50:01Z fe[nl]ix: |3b|: yes you can, you just have to keep the original form around
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2015-06-29T12:50:23Z fe[nl]ix: basically, the implementation of compiler macro expansion will dispatch on IR
2015-06-29T12:50:39Z |3b|: fe[nl]ix: in which case the compiler macro function needs to handle the funcall form correctly, which is the current problem :)
2015-06-29T12:54:26Z fe[nl]ix: that's partly true
2015-06-29T12:54:51Z nyef: Can you do the canonicalization when invoking your compiler macros instead?
2015-06-29T12:55:15Z fe[nl]ix: all compiler macros I've seen destructure the call form using the macro parameters, and don't look into the &whole form
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2015-06-29T12:55:40Z fe[nl]ix: and the former is guaranteed to work for plain calls and funcalls
2015-06-29T12:55:45Z nyef: (And then you'll run into some maniac who uses EQ to test form identity in his compiler macros...)
2015-06-29T12:55:47Z |3b|: sure, sane compiler macros won't care, but conformant compiler macros /can/ care
2015-06-29T12:56:13Z fe[nl]ix: so what
2015-06-29T12:56:36Z |3b|: so someone wanting to make a conformant CL implementation might care about being conformant?
2015-06-29T12:57:24Z fe[nl]ix: that's not a problem of the implementor
2015-06-29T12:57:28Z fe[nl]ix: it's the user's
2015-06-29T12:57:48Z |3b|: define-compiler-macro is specified to behave that way, it currently doesn't. sounds like an implementor problem
2015-06-29T12:58:03Z fe[nl]ix: nope, it's the user's
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2015-06-29T12:58:17Z fe[nl]ix: those who destructure the &whole form need to handle the case where the car is cl:funcall or cl:apply
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2015-06-29T12:58:52Z |3b|: right, and those who don't need to see the correct values in the other args
2015-06-29T12:59:10Z fe[nl]ix: what ?
2015-06-29T12:59:20Z |3b|: and those who funcall the compiler macro directly with a funcall form need to have the compiler macro function see the correct values in all the arguments
2015-06-29T12:59:49Z fe[nl]ix: it will, that's my point
2015-06-29T13:00:06Z |3b|: compiler macro function takes a form as an argument. it destructures it differently depending on whether CAR is FUNCALL
2015-06-29T13:00:13Z |3b|: current implementation doesn't do that
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2015-06-29T13:03:10Z fe[nl]ix: |3b|: yes, I saw that
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2015-06-29T13:04:42Z |3b| doesn't seem to be contributing much to the conversation though, so i'll go away and stop drowning out drmeister
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2015-06-29T13:07:22Z drmeister: |3b| fe[nl]ix: I read and appreciate your comments.  I'm reading and trying to understand the implementation in SBCL.
2015-06-29T13:10:59Z |3b|: drmeister: looks like hardest part about fixing it is that it shares code with defmacro
2015-06-29T13:11:29Z drmeister: Which?  SBCL's implementation or ECL's?
2015-06-29T13:11:37Z |3b|: clasp/ecl
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2015-06-29T13:13:49Z drmeister: The sys::expand-defmacro call?  SBCL's define-compiler-macro also shares a lot of code with it's defmacro
2015-06-29T13:13:59Z drmeister: its
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2015-06-29T13:16:28Z |3b|: right, but the shared part in sbcl doesn't create the actual function
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2015-06-29T13:19:12Z drmeister: Do you see which part in sbcl creates the actual function - I'm still trying to find it.
2015-06-29T13:19:45Z |3b|: i think it is the `(named-lambda ...) in define-compiler-macro
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2015-06-29T13:20:29Z drmeister: This is what I get in sbcl:
2015-06-29T13:20:33Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/07XK9pxo/
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2015-06-29T13:21:08Z drmeister: The stuff on line 13-18 is the critical code
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2015-06-29T13:21:27Z drmeister: Here's what it looks like in ECL:
2015-06-29T13:21:29Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/VPM89jTn/
2015-06-29T13:22:19Z |3b|: actually i guess the shared part does deal with that
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2015-06-29T13:22:56Z |3b|: it tells parse-defmacro it is a compiler macro, and that adds the check for car = funcall
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2015-06-29T13:24:42Z |3b|: in sb-kernel::parse-defmacro-lambda-list
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2015-06-29T13:25:57Z drmeister: Regular macros don't deal with (funcall (function foo) ...) forms - do they?
2015-06-29T13:26:20Z drmeister: It's just compiler macros - correct?
2015-06-29T13:26:38Z |3b|: you aren't allowed to define FUNCALL as a macro, and you can't funcall a macro, so right
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2015-06-29T13:27:45Z |3b|: (so technically i think you could check for car = funcall in the shared code without caring if it is a compiler-macro if ecl/clasp doesn't define it as a macro, but it seems a bit ugly to rely on that)
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2015-06-29T13:29:52Z drmeister: The problem in ECL/Clasp appears to be sys::expand-defmacro in defmacro.lsp
2015-06-29T13:30:15Z |3b|: though that might be in the part that is shared with destructuring-bind as well, and it shouldn't mess with FUNCALL forms
2015-06-29T13:30:33Z drmeister: It calls DESTRUCTURE which does simple destructuring, it doesn't generate code that can recognize (funcall (function foo) ...) forms.
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2015-06-29T13:32:49Z drmeister: Right now it looks to me like define-compiler-macro needs it's own version of sys:expand-defmacro that that doesn't just call DESTRUCTURE.  Or I could pass an optional argument to EXPAND-DEFMACRO that indicates it's called by define-compiler-macro and it fixes up the "dl" list returned by DESTRUCTURE to make it work with d-c-m
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2015-06-29T13:36:43Z smokeink: My tutorial is ready -- How to cross compile qt, smokegen, smokeqt, commonqt -- http://ge.tt/5BDIjOJ2/ Feel free to post it on your blogs guys
2015-06-29T13:38:16Z Xach: smokeink: what format is it?
2015-06-29T13:38:20Z drmeister: In the code that ECL generates that I pasted above - I think if: the (ARGS #:G111) part were (ARGS (if (eq (car whole) 'cl:funcall) (cdr #:G111) #:G111))   then it might work.
2015-06-29T13:39:07Z smokeink: the tutorial is .txt , in the archive i also put the compiled binaries (windows 64bit , can run on xp)
2015-06-29T13:40:34Z splittist: smokeink: linking to a .txt file in a 7z archive is harder than it might be
2015-06-29T13:41:19Z smokeink: pure txt version http://ge.tt/1DgAmOJ2
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2015-06-29T13:42:15Z smokeink: http://paste.lisp.org/display/150814
2015-06-29T13:42:35Z |3b|: drmeister: i think you want the check in the (#:g111 ...) instead. try an example with a more complicated lambda list
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2015-06-29T13:45:55Z smokeink: i forgot to delete the line "so edit qtcore/CMakeFiles/smokeqtcore.dir/build.make:54 and add wine in the command     (wine .../.../..smokegen.exe ...)" <- it is not needed at all.
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2015-06-29T13:59:00Z drmeister: |3b| Yes, that was just for that example - I'm still trying to figure out a general solution.
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2015-06-29T14:36:30Z Bike: drmeister: a custom argument to the macro parser is what ccl and sbcl do
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2015-06-29T17:07:38Z drmeister: jackdaniel: Are you online?
2015-06-29T17:07:53Z drmeister: I think I have a fix for define-compiler-macro for Clasp and ECL
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2015-06-29T17:11:46Z drmeister: Ah, not quite.
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2015-06-29T17:12:11Z shka_: drmeister: hello
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2015-06-29T17:27:53Z drmeister: Yes, got it.
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2015-06-29T17:30:52Z drmeister: minion: memo for jackdaniel: I think I have a fix for sys::destructure, sys::expand-defmacro and define-compiler-macro that will fix the problem with compiler macros incorrectly recognizing (funcall (function XXX) ...) forms
2015-06-29T17:30:52Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jackdaniel when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-06-29T17:45:48Z otjura: I've missed explanation on this on PCL. what does P in functions like EQUALP, ODDP, SUBSETP etc generally mean?
2015-06-29T17:45:59Z Bike: "predicate"
2015-06-29T17:46:12Z otjura: and F stands for function?
2015-06-29T17:46:21Z Bike: in what?
2015-06-29T17:46:28Z otjura: like SETF
2015-06-29T17:46:31Z hitecnologys: Quadrescence: did you see my comment on that last pull request for cl-charms?
2015-06-29T17:46:38Z Bike: setf is kind of weird. i think it stood for "set field" at one point, maybe.
2015-06-29T17:46:46Z Quadrescence: hitecnologys, i haven't yet no
2015-06-29T17:47:19Z Quadrescence: hitecnologys, now I do
2015-06-29T17:47:29Z otjura: okay but INCF and DECF have the F ending too, Bike
2015-06-29T17:47:29Z jasom: I thought the f was for "form"
2015-06-29T17:47:41Z jasom: since it can take a place form
2015-06-29T17:48:21Z jasom: otjura: I think all of the setters in the spec that take generalized references end in "f"
2015-06-29T17:48:52Z Bike: most of the ones in libraries do too, like alexandria:appendf
2015-06-29T17:49:11Z otjura: Bike, jasom thanks. And finally the functions ending with Q?
2015-06-29T17:49:12Z jasom: oh, I'm wrong; there's "pop"
2015-06-29T17:49:19Z jasom: otjura: quote
2015-06-29T17:49:36Z jasom: but those are vestigal
2015-06-29T17:50:05Z jasom: setf is strictly a superset of setq
2015-06-29T17:50:26Z hitecnologys: Quadrescence: merged, thanks.
2015-06-29T17:51:30Z jasom: otjura: that is, there is no case I can think of in which (setq some-symbol some-form) ever behaves differently from (setf some-symbol some-form)
2015-06-29T17:51:53Z Bike: there are no cases, if it's a symbol macro setq uses setf
2015-06-29T17:52:14Z otjura: thank you
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2015-06-29T17:57:25Z pjb: jasom: why it's correct, you should notice that setf defers to setq to set symbol-macros!
2015-06-29T17:57:33Z pjb: s/why/while/
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2015-06-29T17:58:27Z pjb: Oh, I'm not awake, it's the other way. setf uses setq for variables, and setq uses setf for symbol-macros.
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2015-06-29T18:00:27Z jasom: ultimately I prefer using setf to the functions that setf will expand to
2015-06-29T18:00:42Z jasom: e.g. (setf (cdr x) ...)  versus (rplacd x ...)
2015-06-29T18:01:17Z jasom: though I think set is the only deprecated function that setf expands to
2015-06-29T18:03:00Z pjb: Sometimes you may use SET.  It may become tiring of typing (setf (symbol-value 'x) …) a lot, when (set 'x …) do the same.
2015-06-29T18:03:29Z shka_: hello
2015-06-29T18:03:45Z shka_: how to efficiently store clos objects in the file?
2015-06-29T18:04:12Z dlowe: cl-store works pretty well
2015-06-29T18:04:30Z shka_: does it allows me to read it back fast?
2015-06-29T18:04:41Z dlowe: yes
2015-06-29T18:04:51Z shka_: great, thanks
2015-06-29T18:05:15Z shka_: wow, it even supports vectors
2015-06-29T18:05:20Z shka_: excatly what i need
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2015-06-29T18:13:06Z jasom: I use cl-store plus redis for persistence in my application.  I still have to separate out fields that need to be atomically updated, as AFAICT there is no way to do an atomic read-modify-write to redis without doing it all in server-side.
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2015-06-29T18:17:36Z shka_: jasom: interesting
2015-06-29T18:17:44Z shka_: jasom: why do you use redis?
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2015-06-29T18:20:21Z jasom: shka_: it was easy to setup
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2015-06-29T18:40:21Z shka_: btw, i'm also looking for something to generate browsable documentation out of the source code
2015-06-29T18:40:49Z shka_: i stumbled across few things that looked like something usable, but not sure which one to pick
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2015-06-29T18:51:15Z jasom: shka_: documentation-template is nice because it generates a template designed to let you fill in and introduce concepts &ct, which is probably more useful than just a javadoc style dump.  Most of these http://weitz.de/lisp.html documents were created with it
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2015-06-29T18:53:20Z shka_: jasom: this looks quite nice indeed
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2015-06-29T18:54:44Z shka_: hopefully i can get this thing running without spending hours on reading documentation
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2015-06-29T18:57:09Z jasom: shka_: It has one exported function with 8 parameters; should be pretty straightforward
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2015-06-29T19:01:40Z shka_: i love it already
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2015-06-29T19:11:25Z dim: ediware is of very high quality
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2015-06-29T19:16:31Z pjb: I don't know.  It made me spend half a day debugging because of its optimize declarations…
2015-06-29T19:16:41Z pjb: That's more than a lot of other libraries.
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2015-06-29T19:18:20Z jasom: pjb: ppcre?
2015-06-29T19:18:25Z pjb: t
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2015-06-29T19:19:20Z jasom: I don't think I've lost a half day total on it, but it is a bit annoying (though now I can recognize where it comes from easily)
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2015-06-29T19:23:54Z dim: pjb: high quality != perfect, I suppose
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2015-06-29T19:24:57Z pjb: I agree with Bertrand Meyer's moto, that assertions should be on in production.
2015-06-29T19:25:47Z pjb: More run-time checks in productions means less exploding rockets.
2015-06-29T19:26:27Z Bike: you can bind standard-optimize-qualities or whatever it is, i think? though it's probably weird to do
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2015-06-29T19:27:57Z pjb: I mean if you look at the SpaceX explosion, it's clear that the second stage failed, but not the first stage nor the third.  IMO, there was no reason to destroy them.  They could just have (handler-case … (error-with-second-stage (err) (separate-and-recover this-stage))).
2015-06-29T19:28:05Z pjb: But of course, they're not writting it in Common Lisp.
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2015-06-29T19:32:50Z pnpuff: Successful choreography :-)
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2015-06-29T19:35:44Z pjb: and really, they had several seconds between detecting the leak and reacting, and eventually, it was a human reaction.  They're not using programmers to design their rocket systems, and it shows.
2015-06-29T19:36:28Z emaczen: jackdaniel: You there?
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2015-06-29T19:44:55Z pnpuff: It is vacation time pjb! Nobody works seriously during summertime.
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2015-06-29T20:04:31Z jackdaniel: emaczen: yes
2015-06-29T20:04:31Z minion: jackdaniel, memo from drmeister: I think I have a fix for sys::destructure, sys::expand-defmacro and define-compiler-macro that will fix the problem with compiler macros incorrectly recognizing (funcall (function XXX) ...) forms
2015-06-29T20:04:55Z drmeister: Hey jackdaniel
2015-06-29T20:04:58Z jackdaniel: hey
2015-06-29T20:05:19Z jackdaniel: drmeister: any sourcecode/ diff?
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2015-06-29T20:05:55Z drmeister: Yeah, hang on.
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2015-06-29T20:09:13Z drmeister: No diff because this is from Clasp.
2015-06-29T20:09:14Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/150825
2015-06-29T20:09:38Z drmeister: line 21-27
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2015-06-29T20:10:30Z jackdaniel: you can make git diff HEAD~1 HEAD, or something like that. So it makes define-compiler-macro clhs compliant?
2015-06-29T20:11:07Z drmeister: That skips forward one cdr if you destructure a compiler macro.  In this function the MACRO argument can be nil T or 'cl:define-compiler-macro
2015-06-29T20:11:21Z drmeister: Yes, I think it makes define-compiler-macro clhs compliant
2015-06-29T20:11:42Z jackdaniel: thanks! :)
2015-06-29T20:11:43Z Bike: looks about right to me.
2015-06-29T20:11:48Z drmeister: Sorry to give it to you in such an annoying way.  I've made lots of commits since I edited this stuff this morning.
2015-06-29T20:11:50Z drmeister: That's not all.
2015-06-29T20:12:45Z jackdaniel: hm, maybe tell me files which differ, I'll compare sources Clasp with ECL (wrt this files)
2015-06-29T20:13:04Z Bike: soon, clasp will be more ansi compliant than ccl :p
2015-06-29T20:13:19Z jackdaniel: and tell me which branch obviously
2015-06-29T20:13:50Z drmeister: defmacro.lsp and evalmacros.lsp
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2015-06-29T20:14:07Z drmeister: You can get them from the newbuild branch of Clasp
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2015-06-29T20:15:14Z drmeister: The four functions that changed are DESTRUCTURE, EXPAND-DEFMACRO, DEFINE-COMPILER-MACRO and COMPILER-MACRO-FUNCTION
2015-06-29T20:15:39Z emaczen: jackdaniel: I finally got ECL to run on android and am working on building the sample project provided by evrim ulu
2015-06-29T20:15:53Z jackdaniel: emaczen: thats great news :)
2015-06-29T20:15:55Z jackdaniel: congratz
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2015-06-29T20:16:10Z emaczen: jackdaniel: Would you happen to know where I can get a 32 bit libz.so.1 file?
2015-06-29T20:16:16Z emaczen: I'm getting a wrong ELF error
2015-06-29T20:16:17Z drmeister: Yeah, let's do it that way.  Pull those four functions from defmacro.lsp and evalmacros.lsp and compare them to the ones in the ECL source.
2015-06-29T20:17:17Z emaczen: jackdaniel: Yes, I am very happy about this and would be happy to contribute a small tutorial for the Wiki showing how I got ECL to run the android project.
2015-06-29T20:17:40Z jackdaniel: if you agree, it will land in ecl quarterly :P
2015-06-29T20:17:45Z jackdaniel: as well°
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2015-06-29T20:18:39Z emaczen: jackdaniel: Are you talk to drmeister or me?
2015-06-29T20:18:47Z jackdaniel: emaczen: to you
2015-06-29T20:19:00Z emaczen: Yeah that would be great.
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2015-06-29T20:19:46Z emaczen: Any idea where I can get the 32 bit version of libz.so.1? I don't really know that much about shared object files
2015-06-29T20:19:54Z drmeister thinks getting ECL running on android is cooler.
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2015-06-29T20:20:13Z jasom: emaczen: I probably have a copy
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2015-06-29T20:20:31Z akkad: the ecl app seems to have a limited stack
2015-06-29T20:20:35Z akkad: on android
2015-06-29T20:20:37Z jackdaniel: drmeister: sources are making more different with every commit, I think we should soon merge changes and maybe make common sub-module to keep it in sync
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2015-06-29T20:20:44Z jackdaniel: before they are too foreign to each other
2015-06-29T20:20:56Z emaczen: jasom: Can you show me where to get it or send it to me?
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2015-06-29T20:21:09Z jasom: emaczen: I have it installed from my OS's package manager
2015-06-29T20:21:16Z drmeister: jackdaniel: I agree
2015-06-29T20:21:19Z jasom: emaczen: which distro are you using?
2015-06-29T20:21:29Z emaczen: Ubuntu
2015-06-29T20:21:40Z emaczen: jasom: What do you use?
2015-06-29T20:21:53Z jasom: emaczen: gentoo
2015-06-29T20:22:00Z drmeister: I should think about moving Clasp specific changes into separate files.
2015-06-29T20:22:03Z jasom: apt-get install <whateverpackagehaszlib>:i386 should work
2015-06-29T20:22:20Z drmeister: Would ECL accept #+clasp and #-clasp feature tests?
2015-06-29T20:22:38Z pjb: What would you mean? Of course.
2015-06-29T20:22:40Z jackdaniel: obviously, it wouldn't make sense otherwise I suppose
2015-06-29T20:23:05Z drmeister: Good. Then there are no problems.
2015-06-29T20:23:35Z emaczen: jasom: How would I find out which package has libz.so.1?
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2015-06-29T20:25:04Z jasom: emaczen: looks like zlib1g
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2015-06-29T20:25:19Z jasom: emaczen: (I just googled for it, I don't know the actual way since I don't use ubuntu)
2015-06-29T20:25:47Z jasom: also you may need to do a "dpkg --add-architecture i386" before you can install i386 packages
2015-06-29T20:26:24Z jasom: or you could just download the .deb and extract it, I suppose: http://packages.ubuntu.com/wily/i386/zlib1g/download
2015-06-29T20:26:42Z emaczen: jasom: Thanks, I should be able to figure it out from here. I've never really done these kinds of things before so this is very helpful!
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2015-06-29T20:28:18Z emaczen: jasom: On a side note, I also wrote a perform method for ASDF which compiles all parenscript files to javascript files in your ASDF system.
2015-06-29T20:28:32Z jasom: yeah, that's a lot cleaner than my hack
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2015-06-29T20:33:33Z jackdaniel: drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/150828 -- does it look ok, or I've missed something?
2015-06-29T20:36:51Z jackdaniel: drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/150829 <- cosmetic fix against clasp sources
2015-06-29T20:38:34Z jackdaniel: I'm afraid sanity check against macro named funcall breaks ecl build
2015-06-29T20:40:12Z Bike: it shouldn't, since it depends on being called from define-compiler-macro
2015-06-29T20:40:48Z jackdaniel: just observation, I'll analyze it later
2015-06-29T20:41:03Z jackdaniel: tomorrow that is, I just want to check, if it compiles
2015-06-29T20:41:11Z jackdaniel: and runs°
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2015-06-29T20:47:03Z jackdaniel: I've got to go, gn all \o
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2015-06-29T21:11:19Z synergy_: I'm just starting out with lisp and I'm a bit confused on what is actually required to start using common lisp. I understand that a SWANK server is used to interact with lisp, but I don't really see why or what the purpose of it is. How do my installation of lisp (in this case SBCL) and the SWANK server interact?
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2015-06-29T21:13:22Z Shinmera: A swank server is not required to interact with lisp.
2015-06-29T21:14:08Z williamyao: synergy_: If you have SLIME installed, then you can send files, expressions, etc. from emacs to SWANK, which will evaluate them in your CL implementation of choice. This allows you to develop in a neat way; every time you finish, say, a function definition, you can evaluate and test it immediately from within emacs. Strictly not necessary; you can just run SBCL from the command line and work that way. But it's sure handy.
2015-06-29T21:14:31Z luis: synergy_: swank is just a component a particular IDE named SLIME. You don't /need/ it (unless you're using SLIME, but even in that case you shouldn't even have to know about it...)
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2015-06-29T21:16:28Z synergy_: I see. So is a SWANK server a part of the SLIME installation?
2015-06-29T21:16:34Z luis: Yes.
2015-06-29T21:16:51Z synergy_: So if anyone's familiar with slimv, would the same be true for that?
2015-06-29T21:17:04Z williamyao: Yep.
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2015-06-29T21:17:48Z synergy_: So how exactly does slimv connect with the server? Is there any configuration I have to set up myself?
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2015-06-29T21:18:53Z luis: synergy_: SLIME is able to launch the Lisp compiler, start the server and connect to it. I would expect slimv to do something similar, but I've never used it.
2015-06-29T21:20:06Z williamyao: slimv does the same. Just drop it into your ~/.vim, open a .lisp file, and press ,c
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2015-06-29T21:21:32Z drmeister: jackdaniel: That looks fine.
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2015-06-29T21:21:57Z luis: synergy_: have you seen this tutorial? http://kovisoft.bitbucket.org/tutorial.html I just found it, it looks pretty good.
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2015-06-29T21:45:03Z synergy_: luis: Oh thanks. I had started that tutorial, but hadn't noticed the ,c command to start things up. I'm not all the way up yet, but I'm at least getting feedback from slimv as it says that the swank server hasn't started when I run ,c.
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2015-06-29T21:58:54Z dim: I wonder if it's easier to setup slimv or use SLIME with evil-mode
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2015-06-29T22:06:01Z jasom: evil-mode
2015-06-29T22:06:27Z jasom: the only two things you really need to know for evil-mode are C-g and C-z; you can survive on just those for a while
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2015-06-29T22:06:47Z jasom: and quicklisp-slime-helper is super easy
2015-06-29T22:07:27Z synergy_: "Slimv tries to autodetect your Lisp/SWANK installation." Does that mean a swank server does need to be installed by the user?
2015-06-29T22:08:13Z jasom: I also am happy to say that evil-mode is enough like vim that I use evil-mode for lisp stuff and vim for everything else and have no issues with muscle memory confusing things.
2015-06-29T22:08:35Z jasom: synergy_: that would be scary if it's the case, since swank does not maintain a stable API
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2015-06-29T22:09:47Z synergy_: jasom: I think that the swank server would have some bin location, and I would reference that in the slimv command to run the server. Does that make sense?
2015-06-29T22:11:14Z jasom: synergy_: the swank server is a .lisp file that is loaded by your lisp binary
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2015-06-29T22:13:12Z jasom: synergy_: so you'll need a lisp implementation, and swank
2015-06-29T22:13:12Z synergy_: So when I installed sbcl, would the swank server have come with that. If so, where would it be located?
2015-06-29T22:13:24Z jasom: no it wouldn't, you can get one from quicklisp though
2015-06-29T22:13:47Z jasom: or from here: https://github.com/slime/slime
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2015-06-29T22:17:14Z synergy_: Alright, so I have a swank folder and a start-swank.lisp that came from slimv (it's pretty much the same as the one for slime). Does the start-swank.lisp reference the swank folder? What's the purpose of that folder?
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2015-06-29T22:18:24Z synergy_: And I need to reference the start-swank.lisp's path so do the file and the swank folder need to be in the same location, and is there a common or recommended place to put these?
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2015-06-29T22:23:37Z Baggers: synergy_: You shouldnt have to set this stuff up all by hand. The install process for sbcl and slime can be fairly simple https://youtu.be/VnWVu8VVDbI?list=PL2VAYZE_4wRIoHsU5cEBIxCYcbHzy4Ypj
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2015-06-29T22:24:02Z Baggers: synergy_: ah sorry, vim, my bad
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2015-06-29T22:32:37Z attila_lendvai: drmeister: I'm halfway into your google talk and suddenly I feel the urge to help you... :)
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2015-06-29T22:34:27Z jasom: synergy_: ah, slimv comes with a swank server, so you should just need a lisp executable
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2015-06-29T22:36:00Z synergy_: I've got things working now by starting the swank server manually. Now I just have to set the automatic command for slimv to do it and then just get oriented with slimv itself. You all have helped a ton, thanks.
2015-06-29T22:36:00Z jasom: synergy_: if it can't find your lisp executable, set g:slimv_lisp to the path to your lisp executable
2015-06-29T22:36:10Z synergy_: Already done
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2015-06-29T22:36:29Z jasom: synergy_: It should Just Work then, according to the slimv docs.  Do you get an error?
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2015-06-29T22:36:51Z synergy_: Nah, everything's working properly
2015-06-29T22:36:56Z jasom: oh, cool
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2015-06-29T22:37:13Z jasom is glad slimv ships with swank, as swank changes its api regularly
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2015-06-29T22:38:31Z Baggers wonders if slimv could be shipped through quicklisp like slime is
2015-06-29T22:38:52Z hitecnologys: Probably not.
2015-06-29T22:39:11Z hitecnologys: It doesn't make that much sense either.
2015-06-29T22:39:15Z jasom: I can't think of a reason why not
2015-06-29T22:39:26Z jasom: It would just take someone writing it
2015-06-29T22:40:44Z hitecnologys: jasom: because QL isn't about just downloading files. Slimv has close to none CL parts (even close to none non-VS parts at all) excluding SWANK it's shipped with.
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2015-06-29T22:40:54Z hitecnologys: jasom: of course it's technically doable.
2015-06-29T22:41:12Z jasom: slime has close to none CL parts excluding SWANK it's shipped with
2015-06-29T22:41:50Z hitecnologys: It at least has Lisp in it.
2015-06-29T22:42:04Z hitecnologys: Besides, slime helper does, IIRC.
2015-06-29T22:42:21Z hitecnologys: s/slime helper/slime-helper/
2015-06-29T22:43:01Z hitecnologys: Anyway, I can't think of a reason to put VIM plugins in QL.
2015-06-29T22:43:46Z hitecnologys: Oh, and greetings, #lisp.
2015-06-29T22:44:06Z jasom: hitecnologys: I don't see the distinction between putting elisp and vimscript in QL
2015-06-29T22:44:47Z hitecnologys: jasom: I didn't say I was for putting ELinks in QL.
2015-06-29T22:45:13Z Baggers: hitecnologys: you stay up to date ans always have slime/v & swank in sync? same reason as slime
2015-06-29T22:45:20Z akkad: and which vim to support?
2015-06-29T22:45:48Z Baggers: akkad: is that more a complicated situation that emacs? (genuine question Ιhave no idea)
2015-06-29T22:45:55Z hitecnologys: Baggers: well, surprisingly, I don't remember having any problem with that.
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2015-06-29T22:46:55Z hitecnologys: Baggers: I don't think it's different. VIM usually gets updates just as regular and there's little incompatibility between versions.
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2015-06-29T22:48:38Z jasom: vim had so little incompatibility between versions that it got forked
2015-06-29T22:48:40Z akkad: Baggers lot of recent forks. and support should only be for those editors that support "set -o ${EDITOR}", otherwise, it's a fad imho
2015-06-29T22:48:46Z hitecnologys: jasom: besides, Emacs has its own package manager it's bundled with which I personally use to keep SLIME up-to-date. VIM doesn't.
2015-06-29T22:48:56Z akkad: e.g. set -o emacs, set -o vi, ...
2015-06-29T22:49:25Z Baggers: hitecnologys: on my part it's just curiosity, I've really benefited from ql managing slime for me, was wondering if same would be true for vim
2015-06-29T22:49:28Z hitecnologys: jasom: well, that could be a problem, yeah.
2015-06-29T22:49:34Z jasom: hitecnologys: that seems to be an argument *for* a quicklisp-slimv-helper
2015-06-29T22:50:02Z Baggers: akkad: interesting, cheers
2015-06-29T22:50:10Z hitecnologys: jasom: no, it's actually call for someone who can finally make somewhat decent plugin repository for VIM.
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2015-06-29T22:51:09Z hitecnologys: Baggers: I see. The cheapest way to find out is try it.
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2015-06-29T23:08:29Z Xach: Baggers: is there a slimv .asd component?
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2015-06-29T23:16:01Z Baggers: Xach: dont know I'm afraid
2015-06-29T23:16:13Z Baggers: gotta be time for some sleep, night all
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2015-06-29T23:16:19Z Xach neither
2015-06-29T23:16:26Z hitecnologys: It doesn't.
2015-06-29T23:17:19Z hitecnologys: Loading VIM plugins without messing up file system is not trivial.
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2015-06-29T23:18:54Z hitecnologys: Basically, you just usually put them all in .vim or overwrite rtp variable to contain all the plugin directories. There's nothing like ASDF or even REQUIRE.
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2015-06-29T23:22:19Z otjura: can I litter LET* scope with anything else except variable binders?
2015-06-29T23:22:46Z Xach: otjura: no.
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2015-06-29T23:23:18Z otjura: thought so. tried shoving few PRINC there. just wanted to make sure, thanks.
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2015-06-29T23:24:50Z Xach: otjura: what syntax did you try?
2015-06-29T23:25:07Z otjura: huh?
2015-06-29T23:25:20Z Xach: otjura: when you tried shoving princs. Where did you shove them? What did your attempt look like?
2015-06-29T23:26:58Z otjura: Xach: http://pastebin.com/yhvqZWFr it's the latter one
2015-06-29T23:27:36Z otjura: commented princs out for further reference. I'm remaking old java homework in lisp, fyi.
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2015-06-29T23:28:29Z Xach: otjura: i see. you could do something like (let* ((first (progn (princ "Give me a number") (read-line))) ...) ...)
2015-06-29T23:28:58Z Xach: otjura: or abstract it out into a function like (prompt-and-read-number "Give a number: ") that prints and reads
2015-06-29T23:29:34Z otjura: I'll give the progn a go.
2015-06-29T23:32:17Z kristof: but the function is a better idea :)
2015-06-29T23:32:40Z otjura: well aware of that but gotta try everything
2015-06-29T23:35:19Z otjura: Xach: wow, that did it
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2015-06-29T23:36:36Z Xach: i would not lead you astray
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2015-06-29T23:38:38Z otjura: how long until I get intuitive grasp of parenthesis? been lisping for almost a week now.
2015-06-29T23:39:07Z Xach: otjura: I don't know. It helps if you use a supportive editor, configured supportively.
2015-06-29T23:39:13Z jasom: otjura: are you using slime/emacs?
2015-06-29T23:39:18Z otjura: yup
2015-06-29T23:39:27Z jasom: otjura: that makes a *big* difference, if you use its autoindent features
2015-06-29T23:40:09Z jasom: I mostly look at indenting over parentheses for multi-line expressions, and if single-line expressions get too long, I turn them into multi-line expressions
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2015-06-29T23:41:25Z otjura: I always try to keep everything under 80
2015-06-29T23:43:11Z Xach: I prefer that too
2015-06-29T23:44:10Z jasom: I like to keep everything under what would be 80 if I were using short identifier names
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2015-06-29T23:46:08Z jasom: some-package:foo-bar-baz-p doesn't need to be penalized over foop
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2015-06-30T00:20:53Z otjura: this is pretty crazy and doesn't look all that elegant. feedback much appreciated: http://pastebin.com/Fir2Pwzq
2015-06-30T00:21:30Z otjura: works but I'm not satisfied with how it looks
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2015-06-30T00:25:03Z jasom: (> (mod (length str) 2) 0) should probably be (oddp (length str))
2015-06-30T00:25:47Z jasom: The comment says  "print ..." but it doesn't print anything
2015-06-30T00:26:09Z jasom: (floor (/ (length str) 2)) can be (floor (length str) 2)
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2015-06-30T00:28:04Z jasom: clhs floor
2015-06-30T00:28:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_floorc.htm
2015-06-30T00:28:06Z jasom: clhs oddp
2015-06-30T00:28:06Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_evenpc.htm
2015-06-30T00:28:57Z Bike: defun has an implicit progn, so you can just write (defun string-length-tester () (princ "Write word: ") (let ((str (read-line))) ...))
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2015-06-30T00:31:42Z jasom: As a style thing, if you are going to have a function yielding multiple values (whether in a list or via VALUES) it's probably good to have the optionally returned value last
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2015-06-30T00:32:09Z jasom: so you could (destructuring-bind (first last middle) (string-length-tester) ...) instead of something more complicated
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2015-06-30T00:33:40Z otjura: thanks again, I'll look into that destructuring bind tomorrow
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2015-06-30T00:34:33Z kristof: ...Is (APPEND '() (list 2)) supposed to return '(), or '(2)?
2015-06-30T00:36:23Z nyef: kristof: (2) and not (QUOTE (2)).
2015-06-30T00:36:36Z kristof: nyef: Ok
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2015-06-30T00:37:14Z jasom: otjura: version with Bike and my suggestions: http://paste.lisp.org/+38E2
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2015-06-30T00:38:32Z otjura: jasom: I managed to tweak it similarly but left progn in. is that considered bad style?
2015-06-30T00:39:22Z otjura: considering doing it like in LET* I thought little consistency between the two were nice
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2015-06-30T00:59:14Z pjb: otjura: you should to perform IO in functions that compute stuff.
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2015-06-30T01:00:17Z pjb: otjura: for interactive I/O use *query-io*.  Don't forget to flush!
2015-06-30T01:00:19Z pjb: otjura: (defun string-signature (string) …)  (string-signature (progn (princ "write word: " *query-io*) (finish-output *query-io*) (read-line *query-io*)))
2015-06-30T01:01:32Z pjb: (defun demo-1.6 () (print (string-signature (progn (princ "write word: " *query-io*) (finish-output *query-io*) (read-line *query-io*)))))
2015-06-30T01:01:50Z pjb: otjura: there's no complexity in programming: just write your english problem statement directly!
2015-06-30T01:02:25Z pjb: (defun string-signature (string) (if (oddp (length string)) (list (first string) (middle string) (last string)) (list (first string) (last string))))
2015-06-30T01:02:35Z gabriel_laddel: *query-io*?
2015-06-30T01:02:37Z gabriel_laddel: CLIM?
2015-06-30T01:02:49Z pjb: s/\(first\|middle\|last)/\1-element/
2015-06-30T01:02:57Z pjb: clhs *query-io*
2015-06-30T01:02:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_debug_.htm
2015-06-30T01:03:21Z gabriel_laddel: oh nvm
2015-06-30T01:03:41Z pjb: otjura: (defun first-element (s) (elt s 0)) (defun last-element (s) (elt s (1- (length s))))  (defun middle-element (s) (elt s (truncate (length s) 2)))
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2015-06-30T01:04:14Z pjb: otjura: sometimes an English word like first, middle and last, is not directly available in the CL package, then you have to defun it yourself.
2015-06-30T01:04:31Z pjb: otjura: but this is not a reason not to write your solution directly from the problem statement.
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2015-06-30T02:17:38Z gabriel_laddel: Is anyone here familiar with (Mc)CLIM internals and if so, do you have any thoughts as to why toggle-button-panes don't render correctly in vracks when you swap layouts?
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2015-06-30T02:21:04Z nyef: I vaguely remember having trouble with (SETF FRAME-LAYOUT) in McCLIM when I tried it, but that was quite a while ago.
2015-06-30T02:22:31Z gabriel_laddel: nyef: yeah, so when you do this it reconstructs all the panes using make-pane & make-pane-1
2015-06-30T02:22:43Z gabriel_laddel: and toggle buttons, for whatever reason don't play nicely with this.
2015-06-30T02:22:53Z nyef: Err... Reconstructs ALL of them? What?
2015-06-30T02:23:17Z nyef: It shouldn't reconstruct the ones in :PANES, only the ones in :LAYOUTS.
2015-06-30T02:23:33Z gabriel_laddel: my bad, that is what I meant
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2015-06-30T02:23:52Z nyef: Hrm.
2015-06-30T02:23:59Z gabriel_laddel: I've just traced the drawing code for toggle-buttons, perhaps the space requirements are not correct?
2015-06-30T02:24:04Z gabriel_laddel: we shall see
2015-06-30T02:24:20Z nyef: I really couldn't tell you. I haven't looked at the McCLIM source with any seriousness in years.
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2015-06-30T02:45:09Z emaczen: I'm trying to run "ndkbuild" to run an ECL-android project, it keeps telling me that "ecl/ecl.h: No such file or directory"
2015-06-30T02:45:26Z emaczen: what is confusing is that if I try to build the sample project in the ECL distribution, i don't get this error.
2015-06-30T02:45:32Z akkad: Error: No package exists of name QUICKLISP-CLIENT.
2015-06-30T02:46:18Z emaczen: Also, I have checked my include paths and ecl/ecl.h is in /usr/local/include which is one of my include paths for gcc
2015-06-30T02:46:39Z akkad never had any luck with most things in ecl
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2015-06-30T02:50:41Z gabriel_laddel: http://paste.lisp.org/display/150848#1
2015-06-30T02:51:28Z gabriel_laddel: ^ hrm. the first paste corresponds to a successful paint (on startup - I'm assuming the many repaints is my resizing etc.). The second, to a failed repaint. Something isn't painting all the toggle-button-boxes.
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2015-06-30T02:58:06Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-06-30T02:58:21Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-06-30T02:58:21Z theos: hey
2015-06-30T02:59:40Z gabriel_laddel: beach: Good morning.
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2015-06-30T03:02:30Z akkad: ecl + ironclad needs some love
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2015-06-30T03:05:32Z beach: gabriel_laddel: For what it's worth, I don't have any great hopes of easy fixes for your McCLIM problems.
2015-06-30T03:05:54Z beach: gabriel_laddel: What I need to do is a systematic effort to simplify the code.
2015-06-30T03:06:04Z beach: And that is going to take some time.
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2015-06-30T03:06:24Z gabriel_laddel: beach: I've been poking around - it isn't all that bad
2015-06-30T03:06:33Z beach: I agree.
2015-06-30T03:06:41Z beach: It is not that bad, but it is hard to maintain.
2015-06-30T03:06:48Z gabriel_laddel: also, I got a contract to write some mcclim
2015-06-30T03:06:49Z gabriel_laddel: so, go me
2015-06-30T03:06:59Z beach: Oh, excellent!
2015-06-30T03:07:10Z gabriel_laddel: knocking out the gui for their app took all of 15 minutes
2015-06-30T03:07:13Z gabriel_laddel: they seemed happy
2015-06-30T03:07:27Z beach: Yeah, I know.  CLIM is amazing that way.
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2015-06-30T03:10:24Z gabriel_laddel: beach: it seems to me that the most difficult part of maintaining / developing CLIM is the... distracted efforts at having OpenGL, Windows, OSX + regular linux+X interface.
2015-06-30T03:10:44Z gabriel_laddel: if one were willing to just drop them, and stick to say, CLX, STUMPWM, MCCLIM
2015-06-30T03:10:51Z gabriel_laddel: development becomes much more sane
2015-06-30T03:10:56Z gabriel_laddel: which is what I'm doing
2015-06-30T03:11:20Z beach: Yes, you are right.
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2015-06-30T03:11:44Z beach: The OpenGL backend is not up to modern standards.
2015-06-30T03:11:52Z gabriel_laddel: beach: in this spirit I've put together a lisp only linux distro
2015-06-30T03:11:59Z gabriel_laddel: with those defaults
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2015-06-30T03:12:04Z beach: And the Windows backend (graphic forms) uses another library that is no longer functional I think.
2015-06-30T03:12:14Z gabriel_laddel: if we could just *cut* all that out...
2015-06-30T03:12:38Z beach: I am perfectly willing to do so.
2015-06-30T03:12:50Z gabriel_laddel: !
2015-06-30T03:12:58Z gabriel_laddel: I'll submit a pull request then
2015-06-30T03:13:04Z gabriel_laddel: thanks
2015-06-30T03:13:05Z beach: That would be great.
2015-06-30T03:13:18Z beach: Just make sure you don't remove anything that someone might be using.
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2015-06-30T03:13:42Z gabriel_laddel: haha
2015-06-30T03:13:48Z beach: I mean, those backends are not working so it is safe to remove them.
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2015-06-30T03:20:51Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2015-06-30T03:28:07Z emaczen: What is a .o.d file?
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2015-06-30T03:29:09Z pillton: I would guess it contains the dependencies of the .c/.cpp/.X file that was compiled to the .o file.
2015-06-30T03:29:16Z brucem: emaczen: probably a file listing dependencies, it is probably plain text and in a format suitable for including into a Makefile.
2015-06-30T03:29:35Z nyef: I could understand that for a .d file, but a .o.d file?
2015-06-30T03:30:10Z pjb: nyef: you can generate toto.foo, toto.o, toto.a  Therefore you need toto.foo.d toto.o.d and toto.a.d, not just toto.d !
2015-06-30T03:30:12Z brucem: nyef: some build systems just tack the .d on the output name rather than the basename perhaps.
2015-06-30T03:30:24Z pjb: brucem: this would be an awful bug.
2015-06-30T03:30:27Z emaczen: It appears to be generated from when I ./configure.android
2015-06-30T03:30:38Z pillton: emaczen: GCC has the ability to generate a file containing the paths to all the header files required by a file.
2015-06-30T03:30:39Z nyef: pjb: Clearly, not in Kansas anymore.
2015-06-30T03:31:35Z pillton: Looking at the contents of the file should confirm our hypothesis.
2015-06-30T03:31:54Z emaczen: pillton: It contains a bunch of paths to header files
2015-06-30T03:32:13Z beach: nyef: "toto" is French for "foo".
2015-06-30T03:32:26Z pillton: We were all right then!
2015-06-30T03:32:39Z nyef: beach: And France isn't in Kansas?
2015-06-30T03:32:48Z beach: Not yet.
2015-06-30T03:33:02Z nyef: Them crazy imperialist Kansans! (-:
2015-06-30T03:34:02Z beach: Though one clerk at Avis in Raleigh-Durham airport thought that France was located in England.
2015-06-30T03:34:46Z pjb: Well, there's a Paris in Kansas.
2015-06-30T03:35:05Z loke: beach: Durham? Isn't that in South Africa?
2015-06-30T03:35:08Z loke: Wait. That's Durban
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2015-06-30T03:36:51Z beach: loke: You sounds just like that clerk now.
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2015-06-30T03:37:06Z emaczen: Thanks guys, with this information I have a decent idea of what is going wrong
2015-06-30T03:37:08Z loke: beach: ...which was exactly my intention :-)
2015-06-30T03:37:24Z beach: That's what I thought.
2015-06-30T03:38:08Z Zhivago: Just make sure you use an American accent.
2015-06-30T03:38:18Z loke: Yo, I did
2015-06-30T03:38:36Z loke: I mean, "Ey deeed"
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2015-06-30T03:47:51Z drmeister: Hello everyone
2015-06-30T03:48:07Z JuanDaugherty: someone would only tell you they thought france was in england to get in your face
2015-06-30T03:48:17Z beach: Hello drmeister.
2015-06-30T03:48:32Z beach: JuanDaugherty: No, it was true ignorance.
2015-06-30T03:48:38Z JuanDaugherty: as much as to say two lil countries in ol europe that don't mean shit
2015-06-30T03:49:31Z JuanDaugherty: two countries which together are smaller than the unorganized burough in AK
2015-06-30T03:50:35Z beach: And they would be right.  Which is why I think the EU is important.
2015-06-30T03:50:42Z Zhivago: They were probably thinking of England, Texas.
2015-06-30T03:50:48Z beach: But that's off topic, so let's get back to Common Lisp.
2015-06-30T03:50:58Z beach: drmeister: What's new?
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2015-06-30T03:56:43Z JuanDaugherty: oops
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2015-06-30T04:14:55Z drmeister: I'm stealing SBCL's source-transform's :-)
2015-06-30T04:15:44Z drmeister: I wrote a macro called DEFINE-SOURCE-TRANSFORM that takes an SBCL  (define-source-transform + (&rest args)  (source-transform-transitive '+ args 0))
2015-06-30T04:15:52Z drmeister: And converts it into a compiler macro.
2015-06-30T04:16:26Z drmeister: Now I can copy SBCL source-transform's for all sorts of things.
2015-06-30T04:16:48Z drmeister: That's what I was trying to express yesterday.
2015-06-30T04:16:56Z drmeister: I don't use any of their type inference or anything
2015-06-30T04:17:01Z drmeister: Observe.
2015-06-30T04:17:51Z drmeister: Oh hang on - screwed something up.
2015-06-30T04:18:49Z aeth: What was McClim's OpenGL backend for?
2015-06-30T04:19:14Z aeth: s/for/used for/
2015-06-30T04:19:45Z nyef: Prettier pictures, presumably.
2015-06-30T04:19:52Z gabriel_laddel: So the vrack pane that holds the radio box pane is being told to repaint with a CLIM:WINDOW-REPAINT-EVENT whose region has COORDINATES of #(0 0 100 100) rather than the #(0 391 323 1170) a successful repaint has.
2015-06-30T04:20:27Z gabriel_laddel: So somewhere along the way we're calculating, idk, space to repaint? And missing something.
2015-06-30T04:20:50Z beach: Looks that way.
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2015-06-30T04:21:28Z beach: gabriel_laddel: There is one thing I do want to get rid of, and that's gilberth's "coordinate swizzling" code.
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2015-06-30T04:22:08Z beach: The best way to get rid of it and to simplify other things, is to make sure there is only a single topmost X window for the entire frame.
2015-06-30T04:22:51Z beach: If you could experiment by taking out MIRRORED-SHEET-MIXIN as a superclass of BASIC-PANE that would be great.
2015-06-30T04:23:44Z gabriel_laddel: What was the rational for having multiple frames for a single X window?
2015-06-30T04:24:06Z gabriel_laddel: I'd be happy to, just idkwtf for everything that touches X.
2015-06-30T04:24:11Z beach: It's the other way around.  Each pane now gets a separate, nested X window.
2015-06-30T04:24:13Z gabriel_laddel: I tried reading the documentation once...
2015-06-30T04:24:44Z gabriel_laddel: Hmmm...
2015-06-30T04:25:00Z gabriel_laddel: Okay, I can see why one would want that to go
2015-06-30T04:25:02Z drmeister: Got it
2015-06-30T04:25:04Z drmeister: (funcall (compiler-macro-function '+) '(+ a b 1 2 3 c) nil) -> (TWO-ARG-+ (TWO-ARG-+ (TWO-ARG-+ 6 A) B) C)
2015-06-30T04:26:03Z drmeister: When I say "I wrote a macro called DEFINE-SOURCE-TRANSFORM" I mean stassats helped me write it.  He also found some bugs in SBCL while we were working on it.  Double win.
2015-06-30T04:26:17Z beach: gabriel_laddel: The problem is that X windows are limited to 65536 pixels hight or width.
2015-06-30T04:26:21Z beach: height.
2015-06-30T04:26:28Z gabriel_laddel: !?
2015-06-30T04:26:38Z gabriel_laddel: lol, sure I guess
2015-06-30T04:27:00Z beach: gabriel_laddel: So to get around that problem, gilberth wrote the code for "coordinate swizzling".  But I think it is buggy and certainly messy.
2015-06-30T04:27:13Z drmeister: These compiler macros use SBCL source-transform code and they do constant folding.
2015-06-30T04:27:23Z beach: gabriel_laddel: The easiest way to get rid of it is to have a single topmost X window for each application.
2015-06-30T04:27:44Z gabriel_laddel: beach: each TOPMOST pane.
2015-06-30T04:27:48Z gabriel_laddel: not each pane.. right?
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2015-06-30T04:28:35Z beach: Not sure what you are saying.  Currently, there is an X window for each PANE.  That window is called a MIRROR.
2015-06-30T04:28:54Z beach: I want to change that so that there is one X window for each FRAME.
2015-06-30T04:29:25Z beach: i.e., for each topmost sheet there is an X window, and there are no nested X windows.
2015-06-30T04:29:32Z gabriel_laddel: beach: That makes sense to me.
2015-06-30T04:29:42Z gabriel_laddel: everything descends from PANE, which wtf
2015-06-30T04:29:48Z gabriel_laddel: don't let X touch that
2015-06-30T04:30:37Z nyef: The topmost pane should still be a pane, but the frame-toplevel-sheet should be a mirrored-sheet-mixin.
2015-06-30T04:30:41Z beach: Currently, when the frame manager "realizes" the panes, it creates a mirror (an X window) for each pane, because the panes are MIRRORED-SHEET-MIXINs.
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2015-06-30T04:31:02Z nyef: (Possibly also that one mixin that only allows a sheet to have a single child.)
2015-06-30T04:31:44Z gabriel_laddel: alright, I think I've grokked the design
2015-06-30T04:31:49Z gabriel_laddel: and yes, it makes a great deal of sense
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2015-06-30T04:44:49Z aeth: beach: which CLIM is your CLIM?
2015-06-30T04:45:27Z beach: aeth: Not sure what you mean.
2015-06-30T04:45:42Z beach: aeth: I wrote CLIM3/CLIMatis.
2015-06-30T04:45:52Z aeth: beach: where is the location of the repository?
2015-06-30T04:45:54Z beach: aeth: I am the official maintainer of McCLIM.
2015-06-30T04:46:05Z aeth: I guess that would be https://github.com/robert-strandh/CLIMatis/
2015-06-30T04:46:11Z beach: Yes.
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2015-06-30T04:46:30Z beach: aeth: It is incomplete.
2015-06-30T04:47:02Z gabriel_laddel: aeth: it is incomplete but USABLE
2015-06-30T04:47:03Z beach: I need to figure out how to implement a simplified version of CLIM II presentation types.
2015-06-30T04:47:15Z beach: gabriel_laddel: He is not talking McCLIM here.
2015-06-30T04:47:22Z gabriel_laddel: oh nvm
2015-06-30T04:47:25Z aeth: beach: how much of it is based on McCLIM?
2015-06-30T04:47:32Z beach: aeth: zero.
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2015-06-30T04:49:01Z beach: aeth: It is based on some ideas of the CLIM II spec, but all code is new.
2015-06-30T04:50:27Z beach: aeth: Part of the problem with McCLIM is due to the fact that too many people worked on it, and implemented their own ideas in their own ways.  So I wanted a clean break from that when I started CLIM3/CLIMatis.
2015-06-30T04:51:03Z aeth: beach: where's the license?
2015-06-30T04:51:19Z beach: aeth: Public Domain equivalent.
2015-06-30T04:52:01Z beach: aeth: I will stick that in once it is in a state that someone other than me might want to use it or work on it.
2015-06-30T04:52:37Z aeth: Is it some sort of standard to write directory names beginning with a capitalized letter, and to use lots of directories with a handful of .lisp files each?
2015-06-30T04:52:39Z beach: aeth: At the same time, I want to clean up McCLIM so that I can get rid of some of these problems and improve the general quality of the system.
2015-06-30T04:52:58Z aeth: Most Lisp projects I've seen on Github seem to just have one big /src/ that has dozens of files
2015-06-30T04:53:09Z beach: aeth: I don't think it is a standard.
2015-06-30T04:53:27Z beach: aeth: That's just how I started doing things.  I also tend to have lots of ASDF system definitions.
2015-06-30T04:53:47Z beach: ... and lots of packages.
2015-06-30T04:55:23Z drmeister: beach: Compiler macros are working in cclasp - thank you!
2015-06-30T04:55:32Z beach: drmeister: Great!
2015-06-30T04:55:33Z drmeister: They are being compiled into code.
2015-06-30T04:56:43Z aeth: https://github.com/robert-strandh/CLIMatis/blob/master/Input/input.lisp#L32
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2015-06-30T04:56:50Z beach: Hmm, same max temperature forecast today in Bordeaux and Timbuktu. 42°C.
2015-06-30T04:56:56Z aeth: Interesting style for stuff not yet implemented. (declare (ignore foo)) nil
2015-06-30T04:58:17Z beach: aeth: That is not "not yet implemented".  It is "by default, do nothing".
2015-06-30T04:58:25Z aeth: ah
2015-06-30T04:58:41Z aeth: so there's a lot of stuff that does nothing?
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2015-06-30T04:58:49Z beach: aeth: Notice the PROGN method combination.
2015-06-30T04:58:55Z gabriel_laddel: aeth: Since you're poking around CLIM. Have you seen Climacs?
2015-06-30T04:59:06Z aeth: gabriel_laddel: no
2015-06-30T04:59:52Z gabriel_laddel: aeth: It's nifty. Combined with the CLIM listener it is possible to hack lisp.
2015-06-30T05:00:02Z gabriel_laddel: I actually edit english text in it sometimes.
2015-06-30T05:00:15Z beach: aeth: It is normal CLOS programming.  Subclasses of ZONE decide what to do.
2015-06-30T05:01:37Z beach: gabriel_laddel: I am working on an improved version of Climacs as well.
2015-06-30T05:02:39Z gabriel_laddel: beach: a new one?
2015-06-30T05:03:06Z beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Second-Climacs
2015-06-30T05:03:37Z gabriel_laddel: beach: why?
2015-06-30T05:03:44Z gabriel_laddel: what was wrong with the first?
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2015-06-30T05:04:12Z beach: gabriel_laddel: Nothing particularly wrong.  It is just that I know better ways of doing it now.
2015-06-30T05:04:31Z beach: The buffer-modification protocol is vastly improved.
2015-06-30T05:04:40Z beach: Also the buffer representation.
2015-06-30T05:04:46Z gabriel_laddel: beach: Is it usable?
2015-06-30T05:04:53Z beach: Not really.
2015-06-30T05:05:26Z beach: It uses CLIM3/CLIMatis, so it lacks the input editor for things like file names etc.
2015-06-30T05:05:49Z gabriel_laddel: hm.
2015-06-30T05:05:54Z beach: And that is because I haven't implemented presentation types in CLIM3/CLIMatis.
2015-06-30T05:06:20Z beach: It's all the fault of moore33.  He was supposed to help me, but never seems to get around to it. :)
2015-06-30T05:06:50Z beach: He is the one who wrote the presentation-type implementation for McCLIM.
2015-06-30T05:07:31Z beach: Scott McKay once told him something like "that's how I meant for it to be done, but the CLOS implementations at the time weren't mature enough."
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2015-06-30T05:08:09Z gabriel_laddel: lol, so when I use QUEUE-REPAINT on the borked vrack and feed it a WINDOW-REPAINT-EVENT with a new instance of the working region it just drops it and uses a region of #(0 0 0 0) coordinates?
2015-06-30T05:08:18Z gabriel_laddel: that's useful I guess...
2015-06-30T05:08:34Z gabriel_laddel: beach: meant for /what/ to be done?
2015-06-30T05:08:48Z beach: The implementation of presentation types.
2015-06-30T05:08:53Z gabriel_laddel: ah
2015-06-30T05:09:13Z beach: So McCLIM has the most sophisticated implementation of presentation types of all implementations of CLIM.
2015-06-30T05:09:37Z gabriel_laddel: !
2015-06-30T05:09:44Z gabriel_laddel: I know there is a commercial CLIM
2015-06-30T05:09:50Z gabriel_laddel: but it works on top of GTK?
2015-06-30T05:09:52Z beach: Several.
2015-06-30T05:09:56Z gabriel_laddel: o
2015-06-30T05:10:05Z gabriel_laddel: have you used them?
2015-06-30T05:10:09Z beach: Not me, no.
2015-06-30T05:10:21Z beach: But some of the people working on McCLIM have.
2015-06-30T05:10:26Z gabriel_laddel: It seems to me that the whole "backends" nonsense needs to die.
2015-06-30T05:10:38Z gabriel_laddel: even if you have paying customers, whoever has to maintain the backend...
2015-06-30T05:10:48Z gabriel_laddel: I would never wish that upon a friend.
2015-06-30T05:10:50Z beach: antifuchs was even the maintainer of Franz CLIM at some point.
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2015-06-30T05:11:32Z beach: I guess his handle is "snafuchs" these days.
2015-06-30T05:11:52Z gabriel_laddel: snafuchs: !
2015-06-30T05:11:56Z beach: Yes.
2015-06-30T05:12:58Z beach: Backends are useful, but not most of the current ones.
2015-06-30T05:13:23Z gabriel_laddel: I must admit I'm rather taken with the idea of a LispM. Everything else just sucks.
2015-06-30T05:13:57Z beach: gabriel_laddel: Working on it.  But if I am going to do this alone, it will take some time.
2015-06-30T05:14:03Z gabriel_laddel: beach: you are?
2015-06-30T05:14:11Z beach: Yes.
2015-06-30T05:14:24Z gabriel_laddel: beach: you've read all of loper-os then?
2015-06-30T05:14:47Z beach: I don't remember.
2015-06-30T05:14:55Z beach: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/lispos.html
2015-06-30T05:15:09Z gabriel_laddel: loper-os.org
2015-06-30T05:15:25Z gabriel_laddel: "I don't remember" == probably not.
2015-06-30T05:15:30Z gabriel_laddel: loper-os is memorable.
2015-06-30T05:15:59Z beach: No, it truly means "I don't remember"  I probably have read it at some point.
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2015-06-30T05:16:36Z beach: gabriel_laddel: SICL is meant to be an implementation but also the basis of LispOS because it has first-class global environments.
2015-06-30T05:16:51Z beach: So that is what I am working on now.
2015-06-30T05:17:04Z gabriel_laddel: wat.
2015-06-30T05:17:23Z gabriel_laddel: you see CL's lack of first class global environments as a barrier to a lispos?
2015-06-30T05:17:31Z gabriel_laddel: or, the main barrier?
2015-06-30T05:17:52Z beach: No, I am saying that first-class global environments is a nice way of structuring a multi-user OS.
2015-06-30T05:18:15Z gabriel_laddel: hmmm...
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2015-06-30T05:22:09Z pillton: What options do I have available to me for improving the performance of a lambda function which is composed of other lambda functions?
2015-06-30T05:23:14Z pillton: In this instance the functions close over the lexical environment.
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2015-06-30T05:25:19Z aeth: beach: Your lispos list for keywords isn't good and will cause problems. You're using language for both natural languages and programming languages, but the same programming language can be written in different natural languages. (Mostly comments, variable names, etc.)
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2015-06-30T05:27:00Z beach: aeth: Right.  The entire project is doomed.
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2015-06-30T05:27:54Z aeth: beach: well no it's not doomed, but you are being too vague in your keywords. Genre's another example. You have "game" as a genre (of software?) but games themselves are described via genres (e.g. FPS or RTS)
2015-06-30T05:28:28Z beach: OK, I will remove the example at some later point.
2015-06-30T05:29:13Z aeth: thanks, those are the two I see issues with
2015-06-30T05:30:39Z aeth: You'd probably want to treat games as a special case of programs. A lot of OSes do that now, e.g. Android.
2015-06-30T05:30:43Z beach: aeth: The problem is that everybody has issues with it, and each person has different issues.  Mainly, most people think it is "useless", "impossible", "not needed", "stupid", "slow", etc.
2015-06-30T05:31:04Z beach: aeth: So a minor issue like yours isn't even worth my time.
2015-06-30T05:32:05Z beach: Oh, I forgot "pointless".
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2015-06-30T05:33:04Z gabriel_laddel: omfg
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2015-06-30T05:37:34Z akkad would have thought salza2 and ironclad would be simlar on diffrent platforms...
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2015-06-30T05:39:19Z beach: gabriel_laddel: Did you discover the reasons for your McCLIM bug?
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2015-06-30T05:40:02Z gabriel_laddel: beach: not yet.
2015-06-30T05:40:09Z gabriel_laddel: hunting hunting hunting
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2015-06-30T05:40:33Z aeth: beach: It's not actually minor, it's kind of a contradiction in your description. You're saying you want to be non-hierarchical but you're actually being hierarchical.
2015-06-30T05:41:46Z beach: aeth: I'll take the risk of my brain exploding as a result.
2015-06-30T05:41:50Z aeth: You're either going to implicitly have a hierarchy if all keywords are available by changing the meaning of certain words and making some nil, or you're going to explicitly have a hierarchy (based on the category keyword? perhaps including more?)
2015-06-30T05:43:00Z beach: aeth: It's an example to give people something to relate to.  Apparently it worked with you.
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2015-06-30T05:44:48Z aeth: Well, I guess what I'm saying is what you're doing is roughly equivalent to having a / root file system and then having /movies/, /music/, /articles/, books/, etc.
2015-06-30T05:45:38Z aeth: If you have to deal with the content type (category) before knowing which tags are even valid
2015-06-30T05:46:37Z aeth: or maybe I read it wrong, idk
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2015-06-30T05:49:35Z jasom: beach: I think programmers like heirarchal stores more than non-programmers
2015-06-30T05:49:52Z beach: jasom: Sounds plausible.
2015-06-30T05:50:08Z jasom: beach: most gmail users don't really sort their mail into folders, for instance
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2015-06-30T05:51:21Z beach: jasom: Including me.  Though last time I mentioned gmail someone said the equivalent of "gmail would be the absolute worst thing to get inspiration from".
2015-06-30T05:51:29Z beach: jasom: That's #lisp for you.
2015-06-30T05:52:56Z aeth: beach: but gmail is useless, impossible, not needed, stupid, slow, etc.
2015-06-30T05:53:06Z beach: Of course.
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2015-06-30T05:54:18Z gabriel_laddel: failing repaint events being sent to the VRACK in question also get a CLIM-INTERNALS::STANDARD-RECTANGLE-SET passed as a REGION. Idk what this has to do with anything.
2015-06-30T05:54:22Z gabriel_laddel: but wtf
2015-06-30T05:55:18Z jasom: How would you propose a single-address space lisp OS manage finite resources?  In particular separate address spaces allow for tracking ownership of allocations.  Linux has historically done a notoriously bad job of managing this (though it's gotten a lot better) but it still seems like more protection than would be done in your model.
2015-06-30T05:55:21Z beach: gabriel_laddel: Maybe a scroller region?
2015-06-30T05:55:47Z gabriel_laddel: beach: nah, just a radio box with 4 options (toggle buttons)
2015-06-30T05:56:28Z beach: jasom: I haven't given it any thought.
2015-06-30T05:56:42Z beach: jasom: Therefore the entire project is doomed.
2015-06-30T05:57:18Z gabriel_laddel: Now, the *obvious* thing to do would be to trace clim:handle-event, see what sheet/pane is being passed with what CLIM:WINDOW-REPAINT-EVENT and then try (QUEUE-REPAINT PANE WINDOW-REPAINT-EVENT)
2015-06-30T05:57:20Z aeth: jasom: through virtualization?
2015-06-30T05:57:21Z gabriel_laddel: which I did.
2015-06-30T05:57:23Z gabriel_laddel: which fails
2015-06-30T05:57:27Z jasom: beach: The entire project is ambitious; it is easy to say that this means it is doomed, since far more ambitous projects fail than succeed
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2015-06-30T05:57:35Z gabriel_laddel: so there is some magic state hanging around somewhere?
2015-06-30T05:57:59Z beach: jasom: I am a researcher.  I don't care whether it fails as long as I get some papers out of it.
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2015-06-30T05:58:27Z gabriel_laddel: And that doesn't make sense anyways. I repaint when e.g., `accept' accepts something.
2015-06-30T05:58:29Z beach: jasom: So far, I am doing quite well, thank you very much.
2015-06-30T05:58:47Z jasom: If the 2.2 Linux kernel's handling of overcommit was able to grow into something more-or-less usable, I don't see why this couldn't
2015-06-30T05:58:51Z beach: jasom: First-class global environments, CLOS dispatch, improved GC, etc.
2015-06-30T05:59:04Z gabriel_laddel: so then, wtf could be modified by (setf frame-current-layout) that would cause this...
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2015-06-30T06:00:04Z jasom: beach: an impressive body of work, indeed.
2015-06-30T06:00:22Z beach: jasom: Thanks.  More is on its way.
2015-06-30T06:00:27Z jasom: can you point me at the GC paper?
2015-06-30T06:00:39Z beach: ILC 2014.
2015-06-30T06:00:43Z beach: Hold on...
2015-06-30T06:01:13Z jasom: that's probably enough for me to find it
2015-06-30T06:01:59Z beach: It is probably in ACM digital library.
2015-06-30T06:02:33Z beach: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2635648.2635655&coll=DL&dl=GUIDE&CFID=524500112&CFTOKEN=80135141
2015-06-30T06:02:37Z jasom: The CLOS dispatch was similar to something that I had bouncing around in my head for a while, so it was nice to see that it could actually work.
2015-06-30T06:03:03Z jasom: as much as you may say you don't care if it fails, you do more than I...
2015-06-30T06:03:13Z beach: Yeah, I am fairly proud of the dispatch work.
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2015-06-30T06:03:50Z beach: jasom: That can be fixed. :)
2015-06-30T06:03:51Z jasom: just $15
2015-06-30T06:04:03Z beach: Oh, I have the copyright.  Hold on...
2015-06-30T06:05:24Z jasom should probably join the ACM at some point... I hit that paywall a lot
2015-06-30T06:05:36Z beach: Yeah, I ended up doing it.
2015-06-30T06:05:47Z adhoc: jasom: pretty much all the journals are paywalls now
2015-06-30T06:05:59Z jasom: or I could mooch off of my dad, he probably has a subscription
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2015-06-30T06:06:51Z jasom: I'm just slightly too proud do do that at this point though.
2015-06-30T06:06:57Z beach: DL is slow, web site is slow.  Hold on...
2015-06-30T06:07:03Z pillton: jasom: University libraries should have access to it.
2015-06-30T06:07:20Z jasom: pillton: and then I need to get *in* to the university library
2015-06-30T06:07:47Z pillton: jasom: Of the few I have been to they are open to the public.
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2015-06-30T06:08:10Z jasom: pillton: I've never been to one that lets you get on a web-browser without a login
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2015-06-30T06:08:31Z jasom: and most of the ones I've been to you need to swipe ID to get in
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2015-06-30T06:08:53Z beach: http://metamodular.com/sliding-gc.pdf
2015-06-30T06:09:01Z beach: jasom: Not the final version, probably.
2015-06-30T06:10:52Z beach: jasom: Let me know if you would be interested in some collaborative work.
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2015-06-30T06:14:05Z jasom: Thanks beach, I'm off to bed now.
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2015-06-30T06:14:42Z gabriel_laddel: if I run (generate-panes (find-frame-manager) debuggering-frame) 5-30x from a correct rendering I'll get a correct rendering again?
2015-06-30T06:15:10Z theos: it makes me happy when someone writes a book and uses CL for examples! respect to those authors. but then the buyers whine about not using python or some crap!
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2015-06-30T06:25:00Z otjura: guignon
2015-06-30T06:27:13Z otjura: but what are you referring to theos?
2015-06-30T06:28:56Z theos: otjura just expressing my happyness towards CL :) some people still use CL code in their books.
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2015-06-30T09:16:09Z smokeink: http://paste.lisp.org/display/150862 why does sbcl behave this way?
2015-06-30T09:16:56Z jackdaniel: smokeink: whole expression is read, before you change package
2015-06-30T09:17:03Z jackdaniel: because its in progn
2015-06-30T09:17:31Z jackdaniel: so start is read as cl:start
2015-06-30T09:17:44Z smokeink: okay
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2015-06-30T09:19:34Z smokeink: so what's the right way to make it run (pp::start) after it quickloads :pp ?
2015-06-30T09:20:04Z jackdaniel: you may use (pp::start) I think, but why not use file and load it?
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2015-06-30T09:20:51Z jackdaniel: or --script if you feel fancy, altough cl-launch is more versatile solution
2015-06-30T09:20:52Z smokeink: using (pp::start) gives "Package PP does not exist"
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2015-06-30T09:22:09Z jackdaniel: right, you have to first have a package
2015-06-30T09:22:20Z gabriel_laddel: Does anyone have a SBCL breakpoint hack handy?
2015-06-30T09:23:26Z jackdaniel: if you really want to use oneliner, you could use <<<
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2015-06-30T09:23:28Z jackdaniel: sbcl --script <<< "(list 1 2 3) (format t \"hi\")"
2015-06-30T09:23:30Z jackdaniel: for instance
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2015-06-30T09:23:44Z H4ns: smokeink: use separate --eval lines
2015-06-30T09:23:47Z gabriel_laddel: and nevermind, doesn't exist
2015-06-30T09:24:28Z jackdaniel: sbcl --script <<< '(defun xxx () "hi") (format t "~A~&" (xxx)))'
2015-06-30T09:24:46Z H4ns: smokeink: not lines, arguments.  if you put everything into one progn, the whole expression is first read (including symbol resolution) and then evaluated.  at read time, the pp package does not (yet) exist, causing the start symbol to be interned into cl-user instead.  not what you wanted.
2015-06-30T09:25:31Z smokeink: got it
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2015-06-30T09:52:55Z gabriel_laddel: and nevermind again - SBCL has breakpoints.
2015-06-30T09:52:57Z gabriel_laddel: fuck yeah
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2015-06-30T10:29:16Z loke: H4ns: (funcall (find-symbol "FOO" "BAR"))
2015-06-30T10:29:17Z loke: :-)
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2015-06-30T10:29:48Z H4ns: loke: i'm amazed by the sheer beauty and elegance of that solution!
2015-06-30T10:30:10Z loke: H4ns: I've always done that, since I didn't know that you could have multilpe eval's :-)
2015-06-30T10:30:45Z loke: Also, I have a hard time telling if you're sarcastic. I believe you are :-)
2015-06-30T10:30:50Z loke: (or were, as it were)
2015-06-30T10:30:59Z H4ns: loke: :D
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2015-06-30T10:33:49Z loke: That reminds me of this ugly thing I wrote and submitted to postmodern:
2015-06-30T10:33:49Z loke: https://github.com/marijnh/Postmodern/blob/master/cl-postgres/protocol.lisp#L183
2015-06-30T10:34:13Z Shinmera: One day loke wakes up, sweating. The readtable case has changed! Nothing works anymore!
2015-06-30T10:35:04Z loke: Shinmera: none of the other code would work with a different readtable there anyway
2015-06-30T10:35:14Z Shinmera: Which is why I'm joking.
2015-06-30T10:35:20Z loke: :-)
2015-06-30T10:35:38Z H4ns: for stylistic reasons, i prefer #:foo to "FOO" nevertheless
2015-06-30T10:35:46Z H4ns: also gets people like Shinmera off my back :D
2015-06-30T10:37:14Z H4ns: one of the parts of mastering common lisp is to learn all the things that do not actually matter in practice, but that have a "best way" just in case someone tries the impractical.
2015-06-30T10:37:34Z Shinmera: Definitely.
2015-06-30T10:37:35Z H4ns: #+(or) vs #+nil anyone?
2015-06-30T10:37:51Z loke: #+nil
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2015-06-30T10:38:03Z loke: #+a-comment-explaining-why-its-commented-out
2015-06-30T10:38:06Z loke: usually
2015-06-30T10:38:41Z H4ns: you're doing it wrong, because that would not isolate you against someone inventing a feature :nil or :a-comment-explaining-why-its-commented-out!!1
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2015-06-30T10:39:43Z Shinmera: Plus, comments should be actual comments anyway.
2015-06-30T10:40:05Z H4ns: double wrong!
2015-06-30T10:41:48Z loke: H4ns: oh noes!
2015-06-30T10:42:00Z loke: H4ns: I like to live dangerously. I'll take my chances.
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2015-06-30T10:51:21Z pjb: #+(and (or) a-comment-explaining-why-its-commented-out) could be better.
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2015-06-30T10:52:02Z pjb: #+(and (or) #| a comment explaining why its commented out |#) ; even better ;-)
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2015-06-30T11:04:22Z loke: You know what?
2015-06-30T11:04:29Z H4ns: sup?
2015-06-30T11:04:31Z loke: I'll stick with my method :-)
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2015-06-30T11:04:56Z H4ns: you can call it "my personal style"
2015-06-30T11:05:05Z loke: I can
2015-06-30T11:05:16Z H4ns ponders using symbol-plist more
2015-06-30T11:05:16Z loke: But I prefer "The one true style"
2015-06-30T11:05:23Z loke: H4ns: for what?
2015-06-30T11:05:37Z H4ns: loke: for storing global data!
2015-06-30T11:05:43Z loz: one true style?
2015-06-30T11:05:53Z H4ns: loz: don't listen to that guy
2015-06-30T11:06:01Z H4ns: loz: he's got the one true WRONG style
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2015-06-30T11:06:57Z loke: H4ns: what kind of global data? I find it pretty rare to have data that I need to go along with the symbol itself. Usually in the innards of some (often CLOS-heavy) framework
2015-06-30T11:07:16Z loke: Those are the only times I even considered it. I have never actually done it.
2015-06-30T11:07:54Z H4ns: loke: i was joking.  i was once confronted with code that used symbol plists to store extra information
2015-06-30T11:08:06Z H4ns: loke: it was insane.   i had to completely erase and rewrite it.
2015-06-30T11:09:02Z H4ns: loke: no, it was not code from the early 1970ies.  it was written in 2011.
2015-06-30T11:10:12Z fe[nl]ix: wow
2015-06-30T11:10:15Z loz: H4ns: lol)
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2015-06-30T11:12:44Z pjb: H4ns: why would you say it was insane?  plists are just like object slots, and those symbols were objects, with an implicit name.
2015-06-30T11:13:13Z pjb: H4ns: I hope you didn't use hash-tables!  hash-table performance is awful for a small number of slots.
2015-06-30T11:15:26Z pjb: On the other hand, the problem you probably had wasn't with symbol-plist, but with the lack of abstraction.
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2015-06-30T11:20:14Z loke: Speaking of that. I have a metaclass that is used for an object mapper I'm using (I map objects to a representation in couchdb). Now, for certain slots (specified with a slot option) I can mark them as tracking any changes made to them (so that I can ask later if a certain slot have changed so I can flush some caches and whatnot)
2015-06-30T11:20:46Z loke: What's the best way of tracking such changes. Right now the metaclass adds a hash-table to the object which holds the changed slots.
2015-06-30T11:21:06Z loke: That's probably pretty iunefficient since I rarely have any classes with more than 2 slots that have change-tracking enabled.
2015-06-30T11:21:58Z pjb: Hacking StumpWM with Common Lisp <http://www.kaashif.co.uk/2015/06/28/hacking-stumpwm-with-common-lisp/index.html>
2015-06-30T11:23:05Z pjb: loke: indeed, you could use an a-list, until it grows beyond a certain limit.  Then either a hash-table or a vector, (slots are already indexed aren't they?)
2015-06-30T11:23:58Z loke: Yeah, I was also thinking of actually adding more slots to the class (overloading closer-mop:compute-slots)
2015-06-30T11:24:24Z loke: I.e. having an extra slot that indicates if the companion slot have cahanged
2015-06-30T11:25:37Z pjb: Also, depending on the number of slots, a single slot with a bit-vector could be nice.
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2015-06-30T11:27:12Z loke: pjb: of course
2015-06-30T11:27:14Z loke: how simple
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2015-06-30T11:31:27Z loke: Thanks. Now it's time to leave the office.
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2015-06-30T11:38:37Z loz: pjb: 70% of post is slime setup
2015-06-30T11:39:08Z loz: pjb: would be nice to read more about stumpwm internals
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2015-06-30T11:44:08Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: the recent removal of the old .asd files breaks hemlock, cl-popen, cl-v4l2, and several hu.dwim projects.
2015-06-30T11:44:21Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-06-30/failure-report.html has more info (intermixed with some yaclml failures)
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2015-06-30T11:48:39Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: when's the next release ?
2015-06-30T11:48:46Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: I hope to do it on Saturday
2015-06-30T11:48:55Z Xach: In general, I try to release on the first weekend of each month.
2015-06-30T11:49:58Z fe[nl]ix: I'll send patches, but you can sync to the previous commit if I won't make it
2015-06-30T11:50:17Z fe[nl]ix: thanks for the info
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2015-06-30T11:52:25Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: btw, are you still fetching from gitorious.org ?
2015-06-30T11:52:41Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: no, i am fetching from github
2015-06-30T11:52:54Z fe[nl]ix: I mean in general
2015-06-30T11:53:02Z fe[nl]ix: I see hemlock in particular
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2015-06-30T11:53:33Z fe[nl]ix: those repositories are read-only and will disappear soon because of the acquisition by Gitlab
2015-06-30T11:54:18Z Xach: hemlock is coming from gitorious, yes
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2015-06-30T11:54:50Z Xach: there are five projects still fetched from gitorious.
2015-06-30T11:55:03Z Xach: pjb: have you moved from gitorious?
2015-06-30T11:55:17Z pjb: Yes, I have them on gitlab and a clone on github.
2015-06-30T11:55:33Z Xach: they are conium, com.informatimago, hemlock, py-configparser, mini-cas, and prepl
2015-06-30T11:55:35Z Xach: (six)
2015-06-30T11:55:49Z Xach: pjb: what url should i use to fetch?
2015-06-30T11:56:02Z pjb: https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago.git
2015-06-30T11:58:24Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: https://github.com/bluelisp seems to be the new home for lichtblau's projects
2015-06-30T11:58:37Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: thanks.
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2015-06-30T13:18:06Z attila_lendvai: is asdf:find-system thread safe?
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2015-06-30T13:27:13Z oleo: hello
2015-06-30T13:27:21Z oleo: :)
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2015-06-30T13:43:48Z ahungry: hi
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2015-06-30T13:46:46Z ahungry: What would be the best way to add haskell/prolog style pattern matching to my "glyphs" package (https://github.com/ahungry/glyphs), such that I could do (ƒ first-item '(α) → α) for instance, to then make (first-item '(3)) => 3
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2015-06-30T13:47:39Z ahungry: Right now I have some simple matching, where I can check the left side of an arrow for either a consp that evaluates to T, or a #'equal check on a single atom (ƒ three? 3 → "Yes three" α → "Not three"), (three? 3) => "Yes three"
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2015-06-30T13:48:56Z ahungry: or like, (ƒ how-many-items? '(x y) → "List has two items" '(x) → "Has one item" '() → "No items" α → "Many items")
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2015-06-30T13:53:06Z dlowe: ahungry: check out the optima pattern matching library for common lisp
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2015-06-30T13:54:13Z ahungry: Thanks dlowe
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2015-06-30T14:48:32Z phf: i remember whoever did ilc 2009 badges (or was uk one in 2007?), the ones that had (make-instance 'person :name "..." ...), later posted a repo with the code that was used to generate the badge. does anybody have repo url handy?
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2015-06-30T14:49:55Z Xach: I don't have the repo url handy, but I think Xof might.
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2015-06-30T14:53:57Z phf: oh right, now i remember, thanks :) (http://christophe.rhodes.io/notes/blog/posts/2015/els2015_it_happened/)
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2015-06-30T15:12:59Z theos: does anyone know of books that use CL code?
2015-06-30T15:13:42Z theos: (books that dont teach CL in particular but use CL in other areas of life. like finance, medicine, architecture etc)
2015-06-30T15:14:08Z oGMo: i don't know of books that use any language like that
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2015-06-30T15:15:15Z p_l: well, technically, PAIP is a bit like that ;)
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2015-06-30T15:15:24Z p_l: I think I've seen one or two AI books as well
2015-06-30T15:15:36Z oleo: paip and aima
2015-06-30T15:15:44Z oGMo: i'm not sure AI sufficiently qualifies for "other areas of life," but if so
2015-06-30T15:15:48Z p_l: SICP is arguably one of them, except it's teaching computing, so it doesn't seem like it
2015-06-30T15:15:59Z oleo: there's one slightly older....
2015-06-30T15:16:07Z nyef: How about "Building Problem Solvers"?
2015-06-30T15:16:14Z oleo: it's from an asian guy....
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2015-06-30T15:17:42Z oleo: anyway, paip & aima <- strong bong!
2015-06-30T15:17:45Z oleo: lol
2015-06-30T15:19:08Z oleo: take a deep breath bro, hahahahhahaaha
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2015-06-30T15:19:33Z phf: i'm disappointed that "notes from the metalevel" opted for scheme version of clm
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2015-06-30T15:20:17Z jackdaniel: 1/win 22
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2015-06-30T15:35:28Z ahungry: Anyone ever get an sbcl policy compile error?  "The value NIL is not of type SB-C:POLICY.", Backtrace is:  0: (SB-C::POLICY-TO-DECL-SPEC NIL T NIL) 1: (SB-EXT:RESTRICT-COMPILER-POLICY NIL 0)
2015-06-30T15:35:44Z ahungry: Only happens when attempting a C-c C-c on my laptop (works on desktop) and just came up recently
2015-06-30T15:35:48Z Xach: ahungry: yes indeed.
2015-06-30T15:36:04Z Xach: ahungry: it's a problem with an accidental sbcl api change that affected slime.
2015-06-30T15:36:46Z ahungry: Thanks Xach - I'll try the melpa slime instead of slime-helper
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2015-06-30T15:38:10Z nyef: ahungry: Which SBCL are you using?
2015-06-30T15:38:42Z nyef: I'm not having any trouble with quicklisp-slime-helper and SBCL 1.0.13.
2015-06-30T15:38:51Z nyef: Err... 1.2.13, sorry.
2015-06-30T15:39:10Z nyef changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>|contact op if muted| Hunchentoot 1.2.32, cl-launch 4.1.3, Drakma 1.3.14, SBCL 1.2.13
2015-06-30T15:39:21Z ahungry: 1.2.12 - maybe I just need to re-run the slime-helper command
2015-06-30T15:39:27Z ahungry: although melpa slime also appears to hav fixed it
2015-06-30T15:39:33Z nyef changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>|contact op if muted| SBCL 1.2.13, Hunchentoot 1.2.32, cl-launch 4.1.3, Drakma 1.3.14
2015-06-30T15:39:33Z ahungry: have*
2015-06-30T15:39:43Z nyef: No, that's precisely the broken SBCL version.
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2015-06-30T15:46:45Z XachX: See also http://lispblog.xach.com/post/121194508398/slime-2-13-and-sbcl-1-2-12-error-the-value-nil-is
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2015-06-30T15:49:04Z Vityok: can anybody recommend a simple and easy to use basic queue implementation?
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2015-06-30T15:49:43Z Vityok: aka an in-memory FIFO "list" that will support just queue-dequeue operations (no priority, nothing else)
2015-06-30T15:49:48Z williamyao: Just built one. It's trivial to make using cons cells.
2015-06-30T15:49:57Z williamyao: build*
2015-06-30T15:49:57Z oGMo: Vityok: i have one in trivial-channels, but
2015-06-30T15:50:19Z Vityok: it looks like everybody just have built one...
2015-06-30T15:50:20Z oGMo: Vityok: you can always just copy the bit of code from there you need if you don't need the other 5 lines heh
2015-06-30T15:50:42Z Vityok: (: understood, thanks
2015-06-30T15:51:07Z Vityok: BTW, asking it for the proper Aho-Corasick implementation in the cl-string-match library
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2015-06-30T15:51:35Z Vityok: for the failure transitions namely
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2015-06-30T15:53:45Z Vityok: you can find out more about it at http://bitbucket.org/vityok/cl-string-match
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2015-06-30T15:55:12Z theos: whats aima?
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2015-06-30T15:56:15Z Vityok: Artificial Intelligence, Modern Approach - a very good book
2015-06-30T15:56:33Z theos: oh thanks
2015-06-30T15:56:49Z theos: i think i have that book. 3rd ed i think
2015-06-30T15:57:37Z Xach: not good for learning CL, though
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2015-06-30T16:00:20Z jasom is now running a common-lisp compiled to c compiled to javascript compiled to common-lisp in order to debug the javascript generated by the c-> javascript phase
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2015-06-30T16:00:53Z Xach: there must be some way to involve cloak
2015-06-30T16:01:13Z jasom: haha
2015-06-30T16:01:17Z contrapunctus: jasom: for some reason that reminds me of https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death-of-javascript
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2015-06-30T16:19:03Z jasom: Xach: has anyone run abcl on cloak?
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2015-06-30T16:23:25Z akkad: cloak still maintained?
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2015-06-30T16:33:22Z kami: Good evening, #lisp.
2015-06-30T16:33:42Z shka_: kami: Good evening
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2015-06-30T16:40:02Z IPmonger: Xach: do you happen to know how to make the fiveam docs?
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2015-06-30T16:44:00Z akkad: b
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2015-06-30T16:54:32Z PuercoPop: nyef: Building problem solvers is a good book on expert systems, however its CL style is not so good imho. It avoids using CLOS (I don't recall the reason the author gives but it had something to do with standarization iirc) and its loves to use &aux and setq all over the place.
2015-06-30T16:55:08Z nyef: PuercoPop: That's probably fair. I haven't given it a serious read yet.
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2015-06-30T16:58:00Z PuercoPop: it inspired a 'biological network debugger' https://code.google.com/p/biohacker/ (I've worked through a quarter of the book only, at a glacial pace)
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2015-06-30T17:16:44Z aeth: Who here told Microsoft about my AMD idea? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9806317
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2015-06-30T17:19:20Z oleo: wth who comes up with ideas like amd == linux ?
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2015-06-30T17:26:07Z aeth: I was joking. I doubt Microsoft is actually copying my random speculation the other day about someone buying AMD. It's more likely that the random blogger who started the rumor copied the idea to drive up AMD stock price.
2015-06-30T17:26:17Z aeth: but even that's unlikely
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2015-06-30T17:29:17Z shka_: MS buying amd? What for?
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2015-06-30T17:31:08Z aeth: shka_: It's possibly a false story according to the comments on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9806714
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2015-06-30T17:31:18Z aeth: I guess we'll have to wait and see
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2015-06-30T17:31:47Z shka_: yeah, i don't think ms would want to buy amd
2015-06-30T17:32:36Z shka_: well OTOH they bought that silly company behind mincraft for sick cash so who knows
2015-06-30T17:33:10Z aeth: yeah and that could cost more than buying AMD
2015-06-30T17:33:12Z aeth: apparently
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2015-06-30T17:35:56Z aeth: Is SLIME technically an IDE?
2015-06-30T17:36:27Z oGMo: compare your definition of "an IDE" to slime
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2015-06-30T17:38:13Z jasom: I call it an IDE
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2015-06-30T17:40:20Z aeth: oGMo: my definition is useless. Definitions are based on consensus
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2015-06-30T17:40:57Z oGMo: without definition, then there is no discussion to be had, because words are meaningless
2015-06-30T17:42:16Z oGMo: instead of arguing over terms, perhaps "does emacs/slime let me perform a certain set of functionality i desire?" would be a much more useful question
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2015-06-30T17:42:41Z aeth: oGMo: Yes but any given word mapping to any given definition is done by consensus. If I call the constant that's approximately 3.14159 "foo" no one will know what I'm saying. It's "pi".
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2015-06-30T17:43:00Z oGMo: ah, arguing over the definition of definition ... priceless
2015-06-30T17:43:14Z aeth: It's the Internet. It has to be done. :-)
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2015-06-30T17:46:01Z edgar-rft: Given the fact that software programmers are a minority of mankind there will be no IDE at all because most people never have heard of such a thing. That's consensus.
2015-06-30T17:46:17Z shka_: eeeeh
2015-06-30T17:46:26Z aeth: edgar-rft: Consensus within a field can give words with different meanings than general word meanings which are based on use in general.
2015-06-30T17:46:27Z shka_: aren't you overthinking this a bit?
2015-06-30T17:46:45Z aeth: edgar-rft: So for the example of "pi", only consensus within mathematics matters.
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2015-06-30T17:46:49Z aeth: At least in this context
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2015-06-30T17:47:38Z aeth: "Lnaguage" is a good example for something that has a meaning in comp sci that's different from the general meaning.
2015-06-30T17:47:42Z aeth: *Language
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2015-06-30T17:48:39Z aeth: Anyway, my question is if SLIME (and or emacs+SLIME) should be classified as an IDE.
2015-06-30T17:48:56Z edgar-rft: who cares?
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2015-06-30T17:49:10Z ahungry: Emacs can be used as an IDE - I definitely think emacs + slime as is typically used would fit the definition of IDE (its even listed on the wikipedia IDE page), but I think a lot of (non-emac using) programmers think of emacs as a text editor, and only eclipse / visual studio as IDEs
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2015-06-30T17:49:51Z aeth: ahungry: yes that's what confused me. I went to the Wikipedia page for IDE and one of the few pictures is of emacs.
2015-06-30T17:50:11Z aeth: Because I personally wouldn't have considered emacs alone an IDE, although I think emacs in combination with certain things (like SLIME) could be
2015-06-30T17:50:41Z ahungry: Yea, barebones emacs, is not really fitting of the definition, but it can even be used as one for something like PHP depending on user plugins / customizations
2015-06-30T17:51:12Z ahungry: I use emacs + php-mode + flymake/flymake-php + some custom elisp to run my php or phpunit tests on a C-c C-c press
2015-06-30T17:51:20Z jasom: Is there a way to get sbcl to load a file without compiling it?
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2015-06-30T17:51:27Z PuercoPop: didn't RPG and jwz deliver their commercial IDE through emacs?
2015-06-30T17:52:15Z aeth: ahungry: yes, I think certain things are needed in an IDE to make it more than an editor, like running code directly (lots of REPL plugins exist), testing, compiling, and maybe even highlighting mistakes like SLIME does when a compilation fails
2015-06-30T17:52:50Z ahungry: yea, emacs has flymake/flycheck packages for almost all languages now, and when tied to an external linter, they highlight syntax as you type it
2015-06-30T17:52:58Z ahungry: syntax mistakes
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2015-06-30T17:53:25Z aeth: Does Common Lisp have a linter? I tried to find one the other day and couldn't find anything recent.
2015-06-30T17:53:42Z jasom: aeth: sbcl's style-warnings are a type of lint
2015-06-30T17:54:00Z PuercoPop: btw ahungry check trivia for your matching needs, it is like optima but simpler to extend.
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2015-06-30T17:54:18Z ahungry: yea, I've never looked for one since anytime I type up a new defmethod or defun I just C-c C-c right away (and you can always use paredit to ensure your parens are never unbalanced)
2015-06-30T17:54:33Z aeth: jasom: yes but I don't think it has *enough* style warnings, unless it has stuff not enabled by default
2015-06-30T17:54:43Z aeth: jasom: e.g. there are some style guides like https://google.github.io/styleguide/lispguide.xml
2015-06-30T17:54:51Z ahungry: thanks PuercoPop - I'll look into it
2015-06-30T17:55:17Z aeth: It would be very useful to have at least a few rules, like "never use EQ, use EQL instead", that are going to be right maybe 99% of the time
2015-06-30T17:55:25Z aeth: So I can avoid some common mistakes
2015-06-30T17:55:28Z contrapunctus: aeth: oh, I recall seeing something like this
2015-06-30T17:55:33Z dlowe: aeth: there's lisp-critic
2015-06-30T17:55:38Z contrapunctus: that! :D ^
2015-06-30T17:55:44Z dlowe: it helped some when I was starting out
2015-06-30T17:55:59Z dlowe: though I remember it as very annoying to get working on a particular program
2015-06-30T17:56:09Z dlowe: someone should updated it and turn it into an asdf operation
2015-06-30T17:56:29Z dlowe: (asdf:oos 'criticize 'my-system)
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2015-06-30T17:57:58Z aeth: https://github.com/g000001/lisp-critic
2015-06-30T17:58:00Z aeth: this?
2015-06-30T17:58:09Z aeth: Interesting how it does catch (1+ n) and (incf n)
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2015-06-30T18:01:12Z shka_: aeth: cool stuff
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2015-06-30T18:06:24Z aeth: Is (1+ n) really better than (+ 1 n) in code?
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2015-06-30T18:06:44Z aeth: I think I use it a few places when dealing with index values of sequences
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2015-06-30T18:09:07Z shka_: guys
2015-06-30T18:09:30Z shka_: how would you handle storing data on the filesystem using b-tree?
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2015-06-30T18:11:51Z aeth: hmm, found the sbcl definition of 1+ in numbers.lisp, line 395. (defun 1+ (number) (1+ number))
2015-06-30T18:11:54Z PuercoPop: shka_: iirc drewc has already done that in plank or something, let me check
2015-06-30T18:12:15Z shka_: aeth: haha :D
2015-06-30T18:12:17Z PuercoPop: shka_: yep: https://github.com/drewc/planks/blob/master/src/file-btree.lisp
2015-06-30T18:12:46Z shka_: *sigh* always reinventing wheel
2015-06-30T18:12:55Z shka_: i guess i will clone it
2015-06-30T18:12:58Z aeth: finding it on github... https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/code/numbers.lisp#L395
2015-06-30T18:13:13Z shka_: at least i will have some reference on topic
2015-06-30T18:15:13Z shka_: oh
2015-06-30T18:15:18Z shka_: he is actually using heap
2015-06-30T18:15:32Z shka_: i was wondering what would be a better approach
2015-06-30T18:15:37Z shka_: sorted or heap
2015-06-30T18:15:54Z shka_: PuercoPop: thanks for that link
2015-06-30T18:15:59Z shka_: it will be usefull
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2015-06-30T18:21:21Z PuercoPop: shka_: thank drewc, he has written ton's of interesting code. Check MAO if have time
2015-06-30T18:22:25Z shka_: i have a few minutes right now
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2015-06-30T18:24:09Z shka_: i will stick to the sorted btrees though
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2015-06-30T18:30:15Z emaczen: Is anyone using lisp to develop for the windows 8 store?
2015-06-30T18:30:32Z easye hears crickets.
2015-06-30T18:30:50Z gabriel_laddel: ahahahaa
2015-06-30T18:31:30Z oleo: lol
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2015-06-30T19:07:35Z resttime: Am I correct in thinking that I can use a closure to create a secure database?
2015-06-30T19:07:59Z H4ns: closure -> ??? -> secure database
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2015-06-30T19:08:12Z resttime: oh haha
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2015-06-30T19:08:36Z resttime: A lambda with a list inside with data
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2015-06-30T19:08:49Z gabriel_laddel: secure from who?
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2015-06-30T19:09:08Z H4ns: resttime: you'd better abandon the idea that you can have "security" within one lisp image
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2015-06-30T19:10:27Z akkad: lisp is not secure?
2015-06-30T19:10:45Z resttime: H4ns, so there's no way to keep data private from myself?
2015-06-30T19:10:56Z resttime: gabriel_laddel, the developer
2015-06-30T19:11:25Z H4ns: resttime: what'd be the point?  in the end, the developer could look at the closure to determine the values contained in it.
2015-06-30T19:11:44Z akkad: just look at address-string in util.lisp in hunchentoot to know about lisp and the view on security
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2015-06-30T19:15:49Z synergy_: Is there any reason that having a program like slime would be specifically beneficial to lisp development?
2015-06-30T19:15:54Z resttime: alright thanks :)
2015-06-30T19:18:44Z gabriel_laddel: Neet: no
2015-06-30T19:18:44Z remi`bd: synergy_: some of SLIME principle are based on LISP concepts
2015-06-30T19:18:46Z gabriel_laddel: wait
2015-06-30T19:18:51Z gabriel_laddel: sorry
2015-06-30T19:19:05Z gabriel_laddel: synergy_: no benefit whatsoever
2015-06-30T19:19:18Z remi`bd: for instance, the REPL, macroexpansion, in-depth object introspection
2015-06-30T19:21:24Z synergy_: remi`bd{ Ok. I've been trying to set slimv up, but I haven't been able to actually get to any lisp programming because I've been so focused on setting it up. I was wondering if it would be alright to just get to coding and set up slimv a little later
2015-06-30T19:21:51Z remi`bd: of course, slimv is just a tool to help you program in Lisp
2015-06-30T19:22:11Z remi`bd: There’s nothing wrong writing some stuff without these complex tools
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2015-06-30T19:22:26Z synergy_: I think it would be better to set it up when I find myself needing it instead of right away. Ya know?
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2015-06-30T19:22:56Z remi`bd: synergy_: if you want to give Common Lisp a shot, look at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2015-06-30T19:23:10Z synergy_: Reading that now
2015-06-30T19:23:22Z remi`bd: well, have fun :)
2015-06-30T19:23:52Z synergy_: I'm positive I will.
2015-06-30T19:24:02Z synergy_: Thanks for the advice
2015-06-30T19:24:03Z Grisha: hello everyone, is it possible for a given function obtain the list of its body code?
2015-06-30T19:24:19Z oconnore: I miss Slime, the haskell repl isn't quite the same.
2015-06-30T19:25:01Z Shinmera: Grisha: there's function-lambda-expression, but that's not guaranteed to return anything useful.
2015-06-30T19:25:05Z Shinmera: Most of the time it won't.
2015-06-30T19:25:22Z Grisha: Shinmera: thank you
2015-06-30T19:25:24Z Shinmera: Otherwise, most implementations offer source code tracking, so you can try to read the form from its source file.
2015-06-30T19:25:55Z Grisha: Shinmera: the thing is that I would like to generate code for an external language for a class of simple lisp functions
2015-06-30T19:26:12Z Grisha: mainly for arithmetic ones
2015-06-30T19:26:18Z gabriel_laddel: synergy_: I was being sarcastic earlier - SLIME is essential to having a good programming experience.  If you're going to use the REPL alone, make sure to use `inspect'.
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2015-06-30T19:26:32Z gabriel_laddel: synergy_: honestly, idk if SlimeV will cut it.
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2015-06-30T19:27:02Z gabriel_laddel: synergy_: you might have to switch to Emacs.
2015-06-30T19:27:13Z Shinmera: Grisha: just READ files then.
2015-06-30T19:27:18Z PuercoPop: the author of wookie uses slimv and he seems to get along just fine.
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2015-06-30T19:28:15Z synergy_: gabriel_laddel{ Could you elaborate on why it's essential? I don't know much about lisp yet
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2015-06-30T19:28:24Z Grisha: Shinmera: yes I thought about it, but in the ideal case I would like my program to be able to emit C code for a function on the fly
2015-06-30T19:28:29Z PuercoPop: although if the options were between slime and the cli, then slime would be a must.
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2015-06-30T19:28:47Z Grisha: Shinmera: would it do first define functions as list and then eval them?
2015-06-30T19:29:01Z Shinmera: Grisha: That sounds like a "nice thing to have" after you got the base of your thing actually working.
2015-06-30T19:29:06Z gabriel_laddel: synergy_: If you have all the goodies enabled for Emacs SLIME, while hacking at the repl everything that prints out is a "presentation".
2015-06-30T19:29:06Z Grisha: Shinmera: i’d prefer not to, because eval can be potentially dangerous
2015-06-30T19:29:29Z gabriel_laddel: synergy_: this means I can inspect and modify the objects at runtime using the keyboard + mouse.
2015-06-30T19:29:36Z Shinmera: Grisha: you can define a defun* or whatever that will save the source somewhere.
2015-06-30T19:29:52Z gabriel_laddel: you can do this at the REPL, but you'll have to `setf' slots all over the place
2015-06-30T19:29:54Z Grisha: Shinmera: a great idea indeed, thanks!
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2015-06-30T19:30:23Z Shinmera: Grisha: either way, I'd focus on getting the source translation working first. Figuring out how to make it convenient should be a secondary concern.
2015-06-30T19:30:25Z gabriel_laddel: synergy_: also, the `trace' facilities are greatly improved
2015-06-30T19:30:26Z Grisha: Shinmera: and a quite straight forward - first save the &rest argument and then throw it into a proper defun
2015-06-30T19:30:35Z gabriel_laddel: synergy_: and the ability to deal with multiple connections at once.
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2015-06-30T19:30:46Z Shinmera: Grisha: You can just use the &whole argument
2015-06-30T19:30:49Z gabriel_laddel: synergy_: and M-. to any source, anywhere. And M-x slime-who-calls
2015-06-30T19:30:58Z Shinmera: clhs &whole
2015-06-30T19:30:58Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_dd.htm
2015-06-30T19:31:05Z Grisha: thanks
2015-06-30T19:31:15Z H4ns: Grisha: in many cases, you really want to use your implementations source location recording feature
2015-06-30T19:31:15Z gabriel_laddel: synergy_: among other things.
2015-06-30T19:31:30Z H4ns: Grisha: in particular if you plan on making the source visible to users.
2015-06-30T19:31:31Z Grisha: Shinmera: but i cannot unfortunately follow your idea about source translation
2015-06-30T19:31:37Z synergy_: gabriel_laddel{ Are you comparing using slime to using the repl or using slime with emacs versus another editor?
2015-06-30T19:31:44Z Shinmera: Grisha: you said you wanted to do lisp source translation to C?
2015-06-30T19:31:52Z Grisha: Shinmera: yes
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2015-06-30T19:31:58Z Shinmera: Grisha: so, get that working first
2015-06-30T19:32:10Z Shinmera: before you worry about how to make it convenient by allowing already defined functions to be translated.
2015-06-30T19:32:10Z gabriel_laddel: synergy_: there are really only two camps afaik SLIME+Emacs and the third world.
2015-06-30T19:32:21Z gabriel_laddel: VIM script is shit
2015-06-30T19:32:53Z PuercoPop: synergy_: it eases the interactive with lisp, you can inspect and modify objects on the fly, you can easily query where the funtion is uses, you get the arguments on the minibuffer. you can switch packages easily you can macroexpand one expansion at a time. The benefits of uses slime are numerous.
2015-06-30T19:32:54Z synergy_: gabriel_laddel{ I'm not completely clear on what you're comparing slime to now.
2015-06-30T19:32:57Z Grisha: Shinmera: I’m interested in translating a really small subset of Lisp expressions
2015-06-30T19:33:12Z williamyao: syngergy_: using SLIME vs REPL
2015-06-30T19:33:13Z gabriel_laddel: synergy_: I'm comparing SLIME and "everything else".
2015-06-30T19:33:22Z williamyao: oops
2015-06-30T19:33:24Z gabriel_laddel: synergy_: SLIME has almost everything.
2015-06-30T19:33:29Z gabriel_laddel: synergy_: everything else sucks
2015-06-30T19:33:40Z Grisha: H4ns: i’ll look up that feature, never heard of it
2015-06-30T19:33:42Z gabriel_laddel: synergy_: SLIME sucks too, but you'll not notice it for a while
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2015-06-30T19:34:02Z gabriel_laddel: synergy_: and by the time you do - you'll have learned a valuable lesson, that elisp is braindamaged.
2015-06-30T19:34:32Z gabriel_laddel: at which point you'll start to ask questions like "okay wtf is this nonsense, why isn't my editor CL too?"
2015-06-30T19:34:36Z PuercoPop: gabriel_laddel: btw slimv connects to swank so it should have a feature set similar to slime
2015-06-30T19:34:57Z gabriel_laddel: PuercoPop: let's say that you want to extend SLIME.
2015-06-30T19:35:10Z Grisha: thanks a lot for the advices
2015-06-30T19:35:16Z Grisha: I appreciate them
2015-06-30T19:35:47Z PuercoPop: gabriel_laddel: I'm an emacs 'zealot', no doubt I agree it would be easier in emacs than vim.
2015-06-30T19:35:57Z gabriel_laddel: e.g., on a keypress, record the type of the current inspected object, then a termination keypress get me a generalized accessor to whatever object I've RET'd my way to.
2015-06-30T19:36:02Z gabriel_laddel: for arbitary types
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2015-06-30T19:36:20Z gabriel_laddel: this is going to be a pain in elisp because it sucks - a gigantic fucking PITA in vimscript.
2015-06-30T19:36:22Z gabriel_laddel: why bother.
2015-06-30T19:36:36Z gabriel_laddel: I've not even bothered to do it in elisp because I'm lazy.
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2015-06-30T19:36:48Z gabriel_laddel: I'll wait until Climacs, thanks.
2015-06-30T19:37:15Z nyef: ... There shouldn't be any "wait" for Climacs or Hemlock.
2015-06-30T19:37:23Z nyef: They already exist, do they not?
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2015-06-30T19:37:37Z gabriel_laddel: nyef: sorry, I should have said "I'll wait until I've some time to pour into Climacs or an intern"
2015-06-30T19:37:54Z gabriel_laddel: nyef: I use Climacs sometimes, but just not often b/c of some simple issues.
2015-06-30T19:38:02Z contrapunctus: gabriel_laddel: LiCE?
2015-06-30T19:38:10Z gabriel_laddel: contrapunctus: nope.
2015-06-30T19:38:16Z nyef: gabriel_laddel: "simple issues"?
2015-06-30T19:38:18Z gabriel_laddel: contrapunctus: Climacs via CLIM
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2015-06-30T19:38:33Z contrapunctus: hrm.
2015-06-30T19:38:36Z gabriel_laddel: nyef: sure. C-c C-c is borked and I have to compile a whole file at a time.
2015-06-30T19:38:52Z synergy_: Since I don't know what to do right now, I think I'll stick with vim until I actually need slime. I'm just starting with lisp
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2015-06-30T19:38:56Z gabriel_laddel: nyef: I can't `present' stuff to *standard-output*
2015-06-30T19:38:59Z aeth: (blah :foo "asdf" :bar "jkl;") is roughly equivalent to this, right? (blah (foo . "asdf") (bar . "jkl;")) Assuming the cdr converts between alist and plist.
2015-06-30T19:39:15Z gabriel_laddel: nyef: oh, and finding files sucks.
2015-06-30T19:39:41Z nyef: Okay, why not spend some time fixing some of these things? It sounds like it would make your life rather to fix any one of them, making it more likely that you or someone else would work on the others.
2015-06-30T19:39:55Z aeth: (I am talking about s-expression as data, not a function call to blah)
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2015-06-30T19:40:53Z gabriel_laddel: nyef: I'm fixing a CLIM bug right now.
2015-06-30T19:41:04Z nyef: Fair enough, then.
2015-06-30T19:41:26Z gabriel_laddel: which, btw I am *lost* as to wtf is going on
2015-06-30T19:41:31Z gabriel_laddel: sigh
2015-06-30T19:41:44Z schjetne: On the subject of CLIM, has anyone else had the problem of Control key commands turning into Control-Shift?
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2015-06-30T19:41:56Z nyef: Is this the layout-change-breaks-vrack-toggle-gadget-refresh thing?
2015-06-30T19:42:02Z gabriel_laddel: nyef: yeah
2015-06-30T19:42:04Z schjetne: If I try going forwards with C-f in Climacs it says that C-F is undefined
2015-06-30T19:42:21Z gabriel_laddel: schjetne: works for me.
2015-06-30T19:42:52Z gabriel_laddel: nyef: so if I call (generate-panes (find-frame-manager) debuggering-frame) some number of times it will eventually render correctly.
2015-06-30T19:43:10Z gabriel_laddel: but the number of times it must be called is random afaik
2015-06-30T19:43:17Z nyef: That's... Not right...
2015-06-30T19:43:42Z nyef: How about generating an explicit repaint request for the full region of the toplevel pane?
2015-06-30T19:43:52Z nyef: Oh.
2015-06-30T19:43:54Z gabriel_laddel: Nope.
2015-06-30T19:43:56Z nyef: Oh, for the...
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2015-06-30T19:45:37Z schjetne: Hmm, now I can't even get CLX going
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2015-06-30T19:46:09Z nyef: ... The use of generate-panes alters the sheet relationships, including geometry. For some of these attributes, particularly for mirrored sheets, there's a round-trip involved to the X server, for which the X server has to send a separate EVENT back to be handled before the corresponding sheet properties are updated and the notifications go out.
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2015-06-30T19:46:55Z nyef: Calling generate-panes again does this *again*, but some events may get handled all the way through in the mean-time.
2015-06-30T19:47:01Z nyef: Something like that, anyway.
2015-06-30T19:47:05Z gabriel_laddel: !
2015-06-30T19:47:08Z nyef: This might be what you're running into.
2015-06-30T19:47:08Z gabriel_laddel: nyef: thank you
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2015-06-30T19:47:29Z nyef: And this is largely based on my interpretation of the spec, NOT of McCLIM.
2015-06-30T19:48:12Z aeth: I'm writing an alternative to JSON and XML using s-expressions for use as data (using the JSON approach of subsetting the language) and I'm trying to design it such that it's roughly readable by both Scheme and Lisp. Afaik, the main issues will be Scheme not having plists and Lisp not having false. I *think* just one-way translating plists to alists in Scheme could work assuming alists are the same in Scheme and Lisp. False might be harder 
2015-06-30T19:48:14Z Fare: hi. Error format question: the error message for subprocess error indents the command way too far to the right, which leads to ugly pretty prints.
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2015-06-30T19:48:41Z Fare: Should I insert a ~% before (or after?) "with command " ?
2015-06-30T19:49:02Z Fare: what's the etiquette regarding ~% in error messages?
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2015-06-30T19:49:06Z gabriel_laddel: nyef: which spec are you using?
2015-06-30T19:49:43Z nyef: A local copy of the annotatable CLIM II spec.
2015-06-30T19:49:52Z gabriel_laddel: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/edit/apropos?q=generate-panes
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2015-06-30T19:50:01Z gabriel_laddel: ^ nothing useful in there.
2015-06-30T19:50:05Z gabriel_laddel: I'd love to have your version
2015-06-30T19:50:11Z Fare: aeth: not sure the exercise is very interesting. Who's to use it? There are many existing SEXP libraries already.
2015-06-30T19:50:26Z nyef: That'd be the version, yes.
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2015-06-30T19:51:00Z nyef: It's a derived property of the nature of certain operations on mirrored sheets.
2015-06-30T19:52:10Z nyef: Particularly, if you set the region on a mirrored sheet, it has to go out to the X server and come back before the region-change actually "kicks in".
2015-06-30T19:53:03Z nyef: There's also an interaction between X ConfigureNotify and the layout protocol.
2015-06-30T19:54:52Z nyef: Basically, relations between chapters 28-30 and chapters 7-9, particularly surrounding frames, frame-managers, mirrored-sheets, and the like.
2015-06-30T19:56:37Z aeth: Fare: I am going to be using s-expressions as data everywhere for every application I write where possible, which I suspect will only exclude formats for things like multimedia.
2015-06-30T19:56:53Z schjetne: If CLX works for everyone else there must be something wrong with my .Xauthority, because that's where it fails.
2015-06-30T19:57:49Z aeth: So I will be doing configuration files as s-exp, logging as s-exp, etc. Roughly equivalent to how many applications use XML or JSON.
2015-06-30T19:58:09Z nyef: schjetne: Well, have a quick look. Does it look like it's in a reasonable format?
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2015-06-30T19:58:59Z aeth: Fare: I don't expect anyone else to use it but I do expect to produce enough output that tying it too heavily to CL might be a disadvantage.
2015-06-30T20:00:17Z schjetne: nyef: I'll try to figure it out. I'm not used to messing with X so I have to read up on it a bit.
2015-06-30T20:02:15Z aeth: Fare: My plan is to define a Lisp subset's syntax, and then to use the first line to define semantics for the s-expression, so e.g. (irc-log) would tell the program that it is an IRC log. This means that anyone who uses anything I write will use it.
2015-06-30T20:02:23Z nyef: schjetne: Well, mine starts off with some sort of tw-byte header, then there is a series of four chunks comprised of a 16-bit big-endian length followed by that many octets of data. The first three chunks are my hostname, my display number, and the string "MIT-MAGIC-COOKIE-1". The fourth looks to be the auth code for access to the display.
2015-06-30T20:02:48Z nyef: (And, NAT gateway aside, that's not enough information for you to be able to hack my display from there.)
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2015-06-30T20:03:30Z nyef: schjetne: A quick "hexdump -Cv ~/.Xauthority" should get you started.
2015-06-30T20:03:31Z jasom: schjetne: clx kind-of works for me.  It's very crashy
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2015-06-30T20:05:55Z gabriel_laddel: schjetne: CLX works beautifully with StumpWM
2015-06-30T20:05:58Z schjetne: nyef: the second chunk, the display number, is empty
2015-06-30T20:06:07Z schjetne: That's where CLX fails
2015-06-30T20:06:23Z schjetne: I'm using GNOME, maybe they have a special way of doing it
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2015-06-30T20:07:57Z resttime: Is the difference between a lisp webserver serving html via a function vs static file very small?
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2015-06-30T20:08:20Z jasom: aeth: FWIW, the lisp reader algorithm is quite simple and well documented
2015-06-30T20:08:31Z jasom: clhs 2.2
2015-06-30T20:08:31Z specbot: Reader Algorithm: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_b.htm
2015-06-30T20:08:48Z jasom: clhs 2.4
2015-06-30T20:08:48Z specbot: Standard Macro Characters: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_d.htm
2015-06-30T20:08:50Z Xach: simple?
2015-06-30T20:09:38Z resttime: actually wait nvm, it's a bad question
2015-06-30T20:09:43Z aeth: jasom: I'm not sure I actually need to write that. If I turn off that stuff that evals at read time, and append ( and ) snd the start and end, I think I can just read it in
2015-06-30T20:10:21Z jasom: aeth: oh, I thought you were talking about reading s-expressions from a not-lisp program
2015-06-30T20:11:02Z aeth: Then I can just do a case on the car of each line and if it's valid for the given type (e.g. irc-log) I can apply a function to the cdr and find out what to do assuming it's valid
2015-06-30T20:11:28Z aeth: jasom: oh, no, people reading the data in other languages will be their problem :-P
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2015-06-30T20:12:03Z aeth: Although maybe if anyone uses my apps I could write something in C just to be nice
2015-06-30T20:13:27Z schjetne: I've been meaning to switch back to StumpWM, in the meantime I faked it and got the display opened, now to figure out why C-f turns into C-F
2015-06-30T20:13:54Z nyef: schjetne: Misleading / incorrect xmodmap, maybe?
2015-06-30T20:14:20Z oconnore: aeth: yaml is a very nice format for writing config files, and you can convert it to/from standard json, which is sufficient to represent arbitrary s-expressions
2015-06-30T20:14:34Z pjb: aeth: Common Lisp has been defined definitively in 1994, and has not changed since.  Why would the CL linter change???      Now, actually there's a reason why: CL "good style" has evolved, and we don't program nowadays with the same style as ten or twenty years ago (eg. exit &aux and setq).  Take the existing CL linter, and update it with YOUR current style!
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2015-06-30T20:15:42Z jasom: oconnore: json maps very poorly onto s-expressions
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2015-06-30T20:16:39Z pjb: aeth: I argue that 1+ = successor and 1- = predecessor are more mathematically fundamental operations, and that therefore they should be used as such.  But on the other hand if you are computing indices or other physical grandeurs, you would rather use + even if one argument is 1, because you'd also have (+ 2 i) (+ 3 i) and (1+ i) instead of (+ 1 i) would break the symetry.
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2015-06-30T20:17:45Z aeth: oconnore: YAML is nice for "scripting languages" because they all tend to have very similar data structures. I'd use YAML for e.g. Python or JavaScript configuration
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2015-06-30T20:18:24Z schjetne: nyef: I don't have xmodmap installed
2015-06-30T20:18:51Z pjb: synergy_: depends if you mean "specifically beneficial" to lisp development or beneficial "specially to lisp development" ?
2015-06-30T20:19:24Z nyef: schjetne: Which "just" means that you can't diagnose or fix issues with your modifier map as easily.
2015-06-30T20:19:44Z nyef: Still should be possible, though. Maybe even via CLX!
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2015-06-30T20:24:16Z devon: Is it usually unusably slow to try $ svn co http://svn.clozure.com/publicsvn/openmcl/release/1.10/linuxx86/ccl
2015-06-30T20:25:04Z devon: Also stalled at ftp://ftp.clozure.com/pub/release/1.10/ccl-1.10-linuxx86.tar.gz
2015-06-30T20:25:13Z aeth: pjb: except 1+ is still the most common, e.g. if you go from 0 to i and (+1 i) to the end when splitting a sequence around something you don't want to keep (e.g. " " in a string) iirc
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2015-06-30T20:25:26Z oGMo: devon: not when i've tried previously
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2015-06-30T20:25:47Z devon: bad network weather
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2015-06-30T20:26:07Z PuercoPop: Any pointers to code that uses *query-io* for interactives restarts? I'm trying to get a hang of the process to improve the UX of a stumpwm module
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2015-06-30T20:26:25Z PuercoPop: *interactive
2015-06-30T20:26:55Z schjetne: nyef: Here's my control key: keycode  37 = Control_L NoSymbol Control_L
2015-06-30T20:27:06Z schjetne: And meta for comparison: keycode  64 = Alt_L Meta_L Alt_L Meta_L
2015-06-30T20:27:12Z schjetne: The latter works just fine with CLIM
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2015-06-30T20:27:45Z nyef: schjetne: What about your shift keys?
2015-06-30T20:28:14Z schjetne: keycode  50 = Shift_L NoSymbol Shift_L
2015-06-30T20:28:18Z schjetne: Seems normal
2015-06-30T20:28:27Z schjetne: And no other program or toolkit is affected
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2015-06-30T20:28:46Z nyef: Hrm.
2015-06-30T20:28:47Z schjetne: But all CLIM programs are
2015-06-30T20:29:14Z nyef: So, it's something specific to whichever CLIM implementation you're using, and not to CLX?
2015-06-30T20:29:27Z schjetne: I've only tried with McCLIM
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2015-06-30T20:30:57Z schjetne: The problem also persists when changing from SBCL to CCL
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2015-06-30T20:43:29Z aeth: Is there a file extension for s-expressions like .xml for XML?
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2015-06-30T20:44:35Z PuercoPop: aeth: I've seen .lisp-expr used
2015-06-30T20:44:46Z PuercoPop: but not very widespread
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2015-06-30T20:45:19Z Xach: I personally use .sexp
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2015-06-30T20:46:03Z christoph_debian: meh position-if's :from-end behaviour feels highly unintuitive (at least to me). first of all it starts at :end and goes until :start and then the first index is :end - 1 while in the other direction the first index is :start (without offset
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2015-06-30T20:47:18Z christoph_debian: clhs not really saying anything on that either isn't helpful as well
2015-06-30T20:47:33Z christoph_debian: took me several hours debugging shit :-/
2015-06-30T20:48:04Z Shinmera: clhs glossary/bounding index
2015-06-30T20:48:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_b.htm#bounding_index
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2015-06-30T20:49:13Z pnpuff: Bounding :-)
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2015-06-30T20:50:03Z christoph_debian: Shinmera: which it indeed references. which is reasonable for a spec certainly but arguably not enough for documentation ;-)
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2015-06-30T21:30:31Z contrapunctus: Is it considered 'unidiomatic'/'language abuse' to write functional code in CL? (particularly the use of recursion instead of iterative constructs?)
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2015-06-30T21:36:32Z antoszka: contrapunctus: As long as you're not worried about TCO (which is not mandated by the CL ANSI standard in implementations), you should be good.
2015-06-30T21:37:02Z Shinmera: And if you aren't worried about other people reading your code.
2015-06-30T21:37:10Z antoszka: contrapunctus: A lot of implementations will do TCO for you, but still iterative constructs would be more idiomatic.
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2015-06-30T21:37:35Z antoszka: contrapunctus: And various MAP variants.
2015-06-30T21:37:51Z antoszka: (which there are many in CL)
2015-06-30T21:38:42Z contrapunctus: antoszka: I see
2015-06-30T21:38:48Z contrapunctus: Shinmera: uh oh. o_o'
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2015-06-30T21:41:03Z Shinmera: If you want to write code that is easy to read you should adhere to established standards and ways of doing things where possible. Since CL is a practical language, it doesn't encourage forcing a particular paradigm.
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2015-06-30T21:41:36Z Shinmera: So, writing in a "functional" (for some values thereof) style in CL is going to reduce readability.
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2015-06-30T21:42:35Z Shinmera: If you want to write purely functional programs, you should probably look for a language that is designed for that paradigm, rather than trying to force another to fit that purpose.
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2015-06-30T21:42:59Z williamyao: Of course, there are some problems where structuring it recursively is the clearest choice and others where it just leads to a tangled mess. And so on, where doing things statelessly leads to elegance and others where it just leads to wrist cramp.
2015-06-30T21:43:12Z Shinmera: Exactly.
2015-06-30T21:43:40Z williamyao: Key thing is that CL supports all of these paradigms and more; use the best tool for the job.
2015-06-30T21:44:10Z antoszka: I very much enjoy various map/reduce constructs. Find them very readable. Could argue they come from the fp world.
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2015-06-30T21:45:09Z contrapunctus: Hm...
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2015-06-30T21:45:30Z contrapunctus: Thanks for the insight.
2015-06-30T21:45:30Z ASau: They do come from FP world.
2015-06-30T21:45:37Z Shinmera: As I said, CL is designed to be practical. Use the tools that fit the task at hand.
2015-06-30T21:45:49Z antoszka: Yeah, definitely.
2015-06-30T21:45:55Z ASau: Though I think they come more from original FP after Backus.
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2015-06-30T21:46:55Z contrapunctus: (Shinmera - thanks, also, for your epic blog...very inspiring for folks new to CL, like myself.)
2015-06-30T21:46:56Z ASau: Or Iverson.
2015-06-30T21:47:03Z Shinmera: contrapunctus: Which one?
2015-06-30T21:47:20Z Shinmera: Or do you mean my CL articles in general?
2015-06-30T21:48:26Z contrapunctus: Shinmera: http://blog.tymoon.eu/
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2015-06-30T21:48:50Z Shinmera: contrapunctus: Ah, so in general. Glad to hear you enjoy reading them then!
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2015-06-30T21:53:50Z williamyao: Shinmera: By the way, can you read this? http://cl-www.msi.co.jp/solutions/knowledge/lisp-world/articles/why-lisp
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2015-06-30T21:54:06Z williamyao: I can pick out bits and snatches, but not enough.
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2015-06-30T21:54:56Z Shinmera: I know so little Japanese it might as well be none at all, so no. Unfortunately I cannot.
2015-06-30T21:56:35Z williamyao: Pity. Don't want to throw it into Google Translate for fear of the monstrosity it would spit out.
2015-06-30T21:57:14Z Shinmera: Just do it and have a laugh. Translate is ridiculously bad at Japanese.
2015-06-30T21:57:41Z scymtym: Fare: do you have comments regarding the deprecation API i described on sbcl-devel? (since you asked here for something like that a while ago)
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2015-06-30T22:06:34Z resttime: williamyao, he's talking about an interview with a student who asked him why use common lisp
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2015-06-30T22:07:02Z resttime: his number one reason is that it has a guranteed standard
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2015-06-30T22:07:36Z resttime: another reason is
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2015-06-30T22:07:59Z resttime: that it kind of promotes different impelementations so the user has more choice
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2015-06-30T22:10:07Z resttime: he concludes that he considers the question of "Which programming language should I use?"
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2015-06-30T22:10:43Z resttime: "Should I use the C/C++ without gc or common lisp that does"
2015-06-30T22:10:59Z williamyao: Well yeah, I got all that part :P
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2015-06-30T22:25:05Z resttime: oh i probably should have asked if there was anything he didn't get lol
2015-06-30T22:25:59Z resttime: THe guy also says that languages without defacto standard shouldn't be used for serious dev'ing
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2015-06-30T22:26:13Z resttime: err wait
2015-06-30T22:26:27Z resttime: i mean defactor standard language should not be used for serious dev'ing
2015-06-30T22:26:31Z resttime: *de facto
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2015-06-30T22:27:38Z resttime: He also says that the usage of them (python, ruby, etc.) in open source is more of a fad
2015-06-30T22:28:24Z resttime: He thinks the language specifications themselves should also be open
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2015-06-30T22:29:05Z resttime: Otherwise it's kinda restricts the devleopment of programming languages
2015-06-30T22:29:49Z resttime: The paragraph with the ANSI, ISO is listing some other languages that have a standard off the top of his head
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2015-06-30T22:31:31Z resttime: i think that's probably it
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2015-06-30T22:36:43Z resttime: oh ruby has been standardized since he wrote that
2015-06-30T22:37:07Z resttime: *after
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2015-06-30T23:22:09Z jasom: I don't get this obsession with standards
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2015-06-30T23:22:43Z jasom: 99%+ of all C code written relies on either implementation-defined or undefined standards, thus making the C standard no more useful than a de-facto standard
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2015-06-30T23:23:01Z jasom: s/undefined standards/undefined behavior/
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2015-06-30T23:24:56Z foom: Because 99% of the behavior *is* defined, and you can hit your vendor over the head with the definition if they get it wrong. It's a lot easier to deal with a differing undefined 1% than if the whole thing is ill-defined.
2015-06-30T23:24:57Z Petit_Dejeuner: "99%+ of all C code" [citation needed]?
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2015-06-30T23:25:39Z foom: *Perhaps* 99%+ of all C programs invoke the 1% implementation defined behavior, but even if so, it's a small part of each one.
2015-06-30T23:26:22Z nyef: A de-jure standard is an enabling technology for resolving disputes about the semantics of a language.
2015-06-30T23:26:32Z jasom: Petit_Dejeuner: the two biggest offenders are signed-integer overflow and casting of function-pointers to void *
2015-06-30T23:27:11Z foom: But if your software relies on the former, it is **BROKEN**, not just differing between implementations.
2015-06-30T23:28:18Z nyef: It defines the behaviors which a programmer may rely on, because they Must Work no matter which implementation of the language they use, and no matter which version of the implementation they use.
2015-06-30T23:29:16Z nyef: A de-facto standard is less stable, in many respects.
2015-06-30T23:29:35Z jasom: similarly if you want threading in lisp, you are likely relying on the de-facto standard of bordeaux-threads (and if not, your code isn't portable).
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2015-06-30T23:29:54Z jasom: asdf is another de-facto standard in lisp
2015-06-30T23:29:56Z nyef: minion: Advice on portable?
2015-06-30T23:29:56Z minion: #12017: It doesn't need to be portable, it just needs to work on your system.
2015-06-30T23:30:14Z foom: Yea, and lisp is definitely poorer for not having threading in the standard.
2015-06-30T23:30:43Z pillton: Poorer?
2015-06-30T23:30:50Z foom: "worse"
2015-06-30T23:31:07Z jasom: foom: I feel fairly confident that threading would have been hard to get right in the early 90s, even by people much smarter than I.  I would probably get it wrong today, but have some hope that people smarter than I am could get it right.
2015-06-30T23:31:21Z foom: That's irrelevant. We're talking about 2015.
2015-06-30T23:31:32Z pillton: I don't agree with that.
2015-06-30T23:31:40Z foom: Even if that's true, it's *still* not in the standard now, and lisp is the worse for it.
2015-06-30T23:32:03Z pillton: Nonsense.
2015-06-30T23:32:14Z foom: *shrug*
2015-06-30T23:32:24Z Petit_Dejeuner: Thankfully they figured out file systems back when the standard was formed and we don't have any problems with that today.
2015-06-30T23:32:36Z jasom: lol Petit_Dejeuner
2015-06-30T23:32:38Z pillton: There are many ways to incorporate threads in to common lisp.
2015-06-30T23:33:04Z nyef: pillton: There being many ways to incorporate threads into common lisp is one of the problems.
2015-06-30T23:33:24Z jasom: I, in general, prefer multiprocessing to multithreading though with a managed runtime you can build abstractions on top of multithreading that make it more like multiprocessing
2015-06-30T23:34:09Z pillton: nyef: Is there a clear winner? Why are they a clear winner?
2015-06-30T23:34:56Z nyef: Is there a clear winner? I don't know, but I would suspect not.
2015-06-30T23:35:15Z pillton: So, what would a standard achieve?
2015-06-30T23:35:17Z jasom: you still have the issue of unsafe code accessed through FFI, and accidentally sharing dynamic variables.  With RAM being the most expensive part of virtualized hosting, and lisp images carrying a ~50MB per process tax, I do use threads in server code.
2015-06-30T23:35:22Z pillton: A crap standard is still crap.
2015-06-30T23:36:27Z foom: Well, at least the way the C++ standards body works, the document that comes out of it has considered a lot of issues with the proposals, and flattened out most of the rough edges.
2015-06-30T23:36:48Z foom: The process of setting the standard gets all interested parties together, to come up with a proposal that ISN'T crap.
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2015-06-30T23:38:05Z Petit_Dejeuner: I've always wondered why C++ is so excellent.
2015-06-30T23:38:14Z pillton: You must be young if you are using C++ as an example. C++ during the 90's was horrific.
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2015-06-30T23:38:35Z pillton died a little after using Borland C++.
2015-06-30T23:38:57Z foom: C++ has a very skilled set of people working on the standards, and it really does show.
2015-06-30T23:39:31Z jasom: foom: The C++ standards body has clout because the major C++ implementors are part of the process
2015-06-30T23:39:33Z foom: However, C++ did exist before the standard, too, and the compilers from that era were certainly not very compatible.
2015-06-30T23:39:50Z Petit_Dejeuner: Sounds familliar.
2015-06-30T23:40:00Z pillton: I for one do not believe that a "God" group can predict all uses.
2015-06-30T23:40:24Z foom: Please note that C++ was only standardized in 1998.
2015-06-30T23:40:25Z Petit_Dejeuner: And that's why you use a language that lets you change the language?
2015-06-30T23:40:33Z Petit_Dejeuner: @pillton
2015-06-30T23:40:38Z pillton: Yes.
2015-06-30T23:40:41Z jasom: C++ is now adding features at an alarming rate, and I worry that the already complex language will become impossible to implement
2015-06-30T23:41:26Z jasom wonders how much money went into developing clang++, for example.
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2015-06-30T23:46:07Z drmeister checks the
2015-06-30T23:46:16Z drmeister: Name of the group
2015-06-30T23:46:37Z drmeister: Phew, no c++ wieners.
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