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2015-05-01T00:55:15Z White_Flame: Is there a preferred way to post a single-file Lisp example with *read-default-float-format* set to 'double-float?
2015-05-01T00:55:30Z White_Flame: such that source code literals are read as doubles
2015-05-01T00:55:59Z White_Flame: I'm not certain if #.(setf ...) is guaranteed to do this
2015-05-01T00:56:08Z White_Flame: though it seems the most effective way
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2015-05-01T01:07:30Z nyef: Why not use the explicit double-float syntax instead?
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2015-05-01T01:18:23Z Ober: akkad ping
2015-05-01T01:18:51Z akkad: ober: nack
2015-05-01T01:19:21Z Ober: need you to compile me something with capi
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2015-05-01T01:19:48Z White_Flame: nyef: so that copy/paste from other languages for blocks of numbers can easily work
2015-05-01T01:20:20Z White_Flame: and just for better legibility for C programmers using "double x = 0.0;"
2015-05-01T01:21:02Z nyef: Ah. I have a couple of off-the-wall suggestions, but the #.(setf ...) thing is far more concise, and will probably work well enough.
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2015-05-01T01:21:12Z nyef: You might not even need the #., really.
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2015-05-01T01:41:32Z Slothel: this may be a noob/stupid question but in Lisp if you pass a function object can you modify that object so that it then behaves differently when you call it
2015-05-01T01:43:07Z gabriel_laddel: how do I read a char from an arbitrary position in a file stream?
2015-05-01T01:43:17Z gabriel_laddel: setf file-position is undefined...
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2015-05-01T01:45:28Z gabriel_laddel: nevermind, got it
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2015-05-01T01:51:21Z White_Flame just discovered the wonder of '#.(setf ...) instead of unquoted #.(setf ...) to avoid toplevel evaluation of the resulting symbol
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2015-05-01T02:09:30Z nyef: White_Flame: But... you have evaluation there, so why bother with the '#. part at all?
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2015-05-01T02:09:55Z White_Flame: Is it guaranteed that forms will be evaluated before the reader has read the next form?
2015-05-01T02:10:13Z White_Flame: regular toplevel forms, that is
2015-05-01T02:10:21Z White_Flame: hmm, I guess in-package does require that as well
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2015-05-01T02:26:43Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-05-01T02:29:08Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-05-01T02:32:28Z Brozo: sup beach
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2015-05-01T02:55:26Z drmeister: Hi beach
2015-05-01T02:57:33Z beach: drmeister: Busy cleaning up the C++ code I see.
2015-05-01T02:58:06Z drmeister: Yes - it's amazing how far I can run with a bad idea.
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2015-05-01T02:58:44Z drmeister: But it's relaxing work.  It's like ironing clothes - it's very soothing because all the wrinkles disappear.
2015-05-01T02:58:56Z drmeister: The code looks a lot better.
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2015-05-01T02:59:16Z beach: So I understand, yes.
2015-05-01T02:59:20Z beach: Good thing.
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2015-05-01T03:01:14Z drmeister: The one thing that I don't like about it is that occasionally where previously I would have a function that looked like foo(Str_sp x)   that would accept a string or NIL  it now becomes foo(T_sp x) which looks like it will accept anything.
2015-05-01T03:02:06Z drmeister: I've been toying with a suggestion from SAL9000  that I use something like foo(Nilable<Str_sp> x)
2015-05-01T03:02:30Z beach: At least T_sp is not a lie the way Str_sp is.
2015-05-01T03:03:13Z drmeister: Right - that's the good thing.  And for every one case like the above there are a hundred where it's clearly improved.
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2015-05-01T03:04:36Z drmeister: Analogies in the CLHS are like the &optional end argument of SUBSEQ
2015-05-01T03:04:56Z drmeister: It can either be a NUMBER or NIL.
2015-05-01T03:06:01Z drmeister: Or NAMESTRING that can return a string or NIL
2015-05-01T03:06:33Z beach: Except that you can't express that kind of type in C++ as far as I know.
2015-05-01T03:06:44Z drmeister: I think it's that kind of thing that caused me to do what I did previously, allow every variable type to be that type or NIL.
2015-05-01T03:07:04Z drmeister: What kind of type can't I express in C++?
2015-05-01T03:07:22Z beach: (OR NUMBER NIL)
2015-05-01T03:07:29Z beach: Or can you?
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2015-05-01T03:07:44Z drmeister: I could with Nilable<Number_sp>
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2015-05-01T03:08:03Z drmeister: But that creates it's own complications.
2015-05-01T03:08:05Z beach: Er, I meant (OR NUMBER NULL) of course.
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2015-05-01T03:08:15Z drmeister: Right - I know what you mean.
2015-05-01T03:09:46Z drmeister: But where allowing Str_sp to point to NIL or a string - may very slightly improve the situations above in terms of readability - it complicates many, many other cases.  I had NIL checks all over the place.
2015-05-01T03:10:21Z drmeister: They are mostly out now.  I'm just stamping out bugs as I try to bring up a REPL.
2015-05-01T03:12:16Z beach: I still need to figure out why you have all this C++ code, as opposed to writing it in Common Lisp.  I know you have tried to tell me, but I am still not convinced that it couldn't be bootstrapped from Common Lisp somehow.
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2015-05-01T03:13:48Z drmeister: I've been thinking about it.
2015-05-01T03:14:33Z beach: I mean, just for starters, I am able to take HIR code and turn it into Common Lisp.  It ought to be just as easy to turn it into (say) C++ code.
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2015-05-01T03:16:01Z drmeister: Ok.
2015-05-01T03:17:18Z beach: But since I haven't done it, there might be things that I haven't thought about.
2015-05-01T03:18:21Z drmeister: I don't know the answer.
2015-05-01T03:18:27Z drmeister: ECL compiles to C code.
2015-05-01T03:18:40Z drmeister: Why does it have so much hand written C code?
2015-05-01T03:18:51Z drmeister: I basically followed their template?
2015-05-01T03:19:10Z drmeister: They have 90,000 lines of C code and about 35,000 lines of Common Lisp.
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2015-05-01T03:19:52Z beach: Well, I have a partial answer.  They wanted it to be possible to bootstrap from source on a system with only a C compiler.  The followup question these days is "why not suppose you have a Common Lisp system too?".
2015-05-01T03:20:15Z drmeister: I was wondering about that today.  They generate C code - why not just take all the functions written in C, write them in CL and then compile them into C.
2015-05-01T03:20:45Z beach: I think it would be possible.
2015-05-01T03:21:08Z drmeister: But if they compiled everything to C then they could bootstrap with just a C compiler.
2015-05-01T03:21:45Z beach: Ah, but then comes the question "What is meant by source code?"
2015-05-01T03:22:06Z beach: If the C code is generated from the Common Lisp code, then you can't just modify it in order to change something in the system.
2015-05-01T03:22:14Z Bike: build products in tree, no good
2015-05-01T03:22:31Z beach: Bike: What do you mean?
2015-05-01T03:22:38Z Bike: what you just said
2015-05-01T03:22:44Z beach: Oh, OK.
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2015-05-01T03:23:21Z beach: drmeister: Or, conversely, if you allow generated C code as source, why not some symbolic form of x86 machine code?
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2015-05-01T03:24:49Z drmeister: Or LLVM-IR?
2015-05-01T03:24:58Z beach: Or that, yes.
2015-05-01T03:26:26Z beach: I mean, I know the answer to that.  In fact the FSF defines "source code" as "the form of the program that is the most convenient for a programmer to modify" or something to that effect.
2015-05-01T03:26:42Z beach: So that excludes all code that is not written by a human.
2015-05-01T03:27:47Z beach: And that's a fine restriction.  But then, assuming the existence of a Common Lisp system and distributing the code as Common Lisp would work.
2015-05-01T03:28:20Z Bike: well, not always. like, you could have a specialized generator that works from some arcane mathematical formalism and then later modifications are stuff like printing more output. you wouldn't need to go back to the formalism.
2015-05-01T03:28:29Z drmeister: I guess it seemed more straightforward to me to start with C++ and work from there.
2015-05-01T03:29:44Z drmeister: Or rather, my idea was - the minimum amount of C++ code necessary to compile Common Lisp code.
2015-05-01T03:30:11Z drmeister: 150,000 lines of C++ code later, I'm still at it.
2015-05-01T03:30:18Z beach: drmeister: And if you assume an existing Common Lisp system, that would be A LOT less than what you have now.
2015-05-01T03:30:23Z drmeister: ECL has 90,000 lines of C code.
2015-05-01T03:30:37Z drmeister: I think the difference is that C++ really is a more wordy language than C.
2015-05-01T03:31:41Z beach: Bike: I am sorry.  I guess I am not quite awake yet.  "not always" what?
2015-05-01T03:31:42Z drmeister: Probably.   Well, nobody else did it that way so I did it this way.
2015-05-01T03:31:59Z Bike: i'm just being needlessly pedantic because it's kind of an interesting question
2015-05-01T03:32:10Z beach: Bike: Oh, I agree.
2015-05-01T03:32:55Z p_l: drmeister: I think it's not so much "wordiness" as much as the much fatter and complex runtime coupled with Clasp not having the option of dropping the aspects it doesn't like
2015-05-01T03:33:05Z beach: drmeister: We have different jobs.  Your job is to do computational chemistry as conveniently as possible.  My job is to think about fundamental CS aspects of things.
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2015-05-01T03:34:41Z beach: drmeister: So there is no reason to beat yourself up over something that is not your job.
2015-05-01T03:34:45Z drmeister: Hmph - I wish I could get some support to do my job.   I got another grant proposal turned down today.   The NSF should just put a sign on their web site - "closed until further notice".
2015-05-01T03:35:03Z beach: Oh, sorry to hear that.
2015-05-01T03:35:08Z Bike: clearly you should work together and write a lisp for Belousov–Zhabotinsky
2015-05-01T03:35:23Z drmeister is not knocking the NSF - they are fine people, doing the best they can under difficult funding situation. It's the clowns in Congress.
2015-05-01T03:35:47Z p_l: drmeister: hijack USDS budget for clasp funding? :>
2015-05-01T03:35:53Z drmeister: We are going to loose a generation of scientists.
2015-05-01T03:36:45Z beach: drmeister: The USA needs another J. C. R. Licklider.
2015-05-01T03:37:44Z Bike: huh. never heard of that guy, and i consider myself decent at history.
2015-05-01T03:38:01Z beach: Bike: Then you definitely need to read the book "The Dream Machine"
2015-05-01T03:38:16Z drmeister: You mentioned him to me before - he was a great man.
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2015-05-01T03:41:07Z beach: Bike: http://www.amazon.com/The-Dream-Machine-Licklider-Revolution/dp/0670899763
2015-05-01T03:41:19Z drmeister: The guy was prescient.
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2015-05-01T03:41:43Z Bike: mainly i j ust like reading bush.
2015-05-01T03:42:01Z Bike: we're all going to have small ebooks (based on microfilm) and personal cameras (worn on our foreheads)
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2015-05-01T03:43:42Z drmeister: Dude, the microfilm revolution is coming.
2015-05-01T03:44:10Z drmeister: All these ones and zeros - it's just a fad.
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2015-05-01T03:50:54Z drmeister: beach: That was a helpful observation.   I'm basically trying to implement a C++ type that represents (OR NULL -whatever-)
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2015-05-01T03:53:33Z drmeister: I haven't worked with DECLARE much but saying something like (declare (type (or null integer) foo)) is completely valid in Common Lisp - correct?
2015-05-01T03:53:41Z Bike: yup
2015-05-01T03:54:09Z drmeister: Right - and SBCL and your type inference engine is going to treat that like an assertion - is that correct?
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2015-05-01T03:54:16Z Bike: yup
2015-05-01T03:55:08Z drmeister: So that within the scope of the declare foo is guaranteed to be either NIL or an INTEGER.
2015-05-01T03:55:44Z Bike: uhhuh. pretty conceptually basic type, though it makes a bunch of formal stuff hard/impossible.
2015-05-01T03:56:06Z drmeister: So that any code like (when (typep foo 'string) ...) can be completely eliminated from within the scope of the declare.
2015-05-01T03:56:57Z Bike: yup. though that's kind of pathologically easy.
2015-05-01T03:57:43Z drmeister: The thing about it making format stuff hard/impossible - that's the Hindley–Milner stuff?
2015-05-01T03:57:50Z drmeister: formal
2015-05-01T03:58:32Z drmeister: And bike - I really appreciate the answers.
2015-05-01T03:59:05Z Bike: yeah, HM is a classic type inference algorithm that doesn't work if you have any subtypes at all (iirc) let alone disjunctions.
2015-05-01T04:00:36Z drmeister: beach is implementing this Nimble type inference engine - I don't know where it falls in terms of formal type inference.
2015-05-01T04:00:40Z Bike: HM does have type functions, though, (or "parametric types" or whatever they're technically called) which is a neat thing that lisp doesn't have
2015-05-01T04:00:52Z Bike: well, if it works on CL it's probably some kind of semicomputable.
2015-05-01T04:01:13Z Bike: CL types are different from e.g. haskell types in that you can always give up and say T, or you can give up later and give a broader type than what could theoretically be inferred.
2015-05-01T04:01:39Z Bike: and since CL admits eql types and stuff it's impossible to get the most specific types, since then you're solving haltin' problems.
2015-05-01T04:01:52Z Bike: which is again okay, because of how lisp works differently from haskell.
2015-05-01T04:02:43Z Bike: i havne't read tapl in a while, though, so don't ask me about existential types or nuthin.
2015-05-01T04:03:00Z drmeister: From what I read its the Kaplan and Ullman algorithm that beach is using.
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2015-05-01T04:04:46Z drmeister: What is semicomputable?
2015-05-01T04:05:54Z Bike: um, like something that's not computable completely but you can sort of approximate it.
2015-05-01T04:06:36Z Bike: like the halting problem is semicomputable, since you can run the program for one step, then two steps, etc., and if it halts you'll know that eventually but you can't be totally sure it doesn't no matter how long you run it.
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2015-05-01T04:11:29Z drmeister: I see.
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2015-05-01T04:12:56Z drmeister: This works for type inference because I generate code that handles all runtime cases and the type inference eliminates pathways and type checks that cannot happen.  But in the worst case, and the type inference completely fails - the code still works, it's just slow.
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2015-05-01T04:14:57Z Bike: right, exactly. it's not like required that type inference works, which it would be in the next thousand MLs.
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2015-05-01T04:17:18Z beach: drmeister: Baker's system is based on bi-directional data-flow techniques, as Kaplan and Ullman wrote about.  It is completely different from HM because they are not meant for the same kind of programming language.
2015-05-01T04:17:34Z drmeister: "which it would be in the next thousand MLs"?
2015-05-01T04:19:02Z Bike: ML is a family/whatever of programming languages closely connected to HM and other strict type inference. i'm alluding to a paper that was titled "The Next Nine Hundred Programming Languages" or something about ML.
2015-05-01T04:19:05Z beach: SML, CAML, OCAML?
2015-05-01T04:19:26Z drmeister: beach: Thanks.  I don't quite understand what the fundamental differences are between Haskel and Common Lisp wrt how type inference can be implemented in those two languages.   I should probably learn some Haskel at some point.
2015-05-01T04:20:10Z Bike: well basically haskell doesn't have a top type. you can't just have a function that takes anything, it has to take some more specific type, and types don't overlap at all.
2015-05-01T04:20:11Z beach: drmeister: In most statically-typed languages using type inference, the compiler rejects a program that is not correctly typed.
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2015-05-01T04:20:16Z drmeister: I see - I've heard that once we enumerate all of the possible names of ML that the universe will end.
2015-05-01T04:20:33Z drmeister: Or begin - it was one of those two.
2015-05-01T04:21:08Z beach: drmeister: In Common Lisp, you pretty much have to assume that a function can be called with anything, and then call ERROR when some operator is called with an object that it can't handle.
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2015-05-01T04:21:53Z drmeister: beach: I understand that.
2015-05-01T04:21:57Z Bike: well the compiler can reject things if it wants. i guess the difference is that MLoids are defined such that rejection is mandatory.
2015-05-01T04:22:12Z Bike: they're not allowed to fall back on tagged objects or whatever.
2015-05-01T04:23:53Z White_Flame: Can accept types comparable to (or symbol fixnum), for example, and perform further type tests?  I'm presuming there's something like that
2015-05-01T04:24:21Z White_Flame: ...Can _they_ accept...
2015-05-01T04:24:25Z Bike: Who's they?
2015-05-01T04:24:29Z White_Flame: MLoids
2015-05-01T04:24:31Z beach: drmeister: Consider my example from the other day: (defun ff (x y) (let* ((z (sqrt x)) (ignore (gg (abs z)))) (if (< z y) ...)))
2015-05-01T04:24:40Z Bike: Not as far as I know, which isn't much.
2015-05-01T04:24:56Z drmeister: So - and I'm going to make a leap here - the Lisp way is the function is invoked with arguments and it decides if it should signal an error with the arguments that it gets.   In ML type languages the function doesn't get called in the first place because its definition does not match the types of the arguments?
2015-05-01T04:25:03Z beach: drmeister: In Common Lisp, you have to call GG even if x is negative.
2015-05-01T04:25:53Z Bike: i don't understand that example, if x is negative z is just complex
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2015-05-01T04:26:04Z beach: Bike: But then < is not allowed.
2015-05-01T04:26:28Z beach: So since < is called with z, z has to be real, so x has to be non-negative.
2015-05-01T04:26:45Z Bike: Oh. right, ok.
2015-05-01T04:27:13Z Bike: in MLLisp the evaluatowhatever would just refuse to define ff.
2015-05-01T04:27:15Z beach: HM type inference would require x to be non-negative.
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2015-05-01T04:28:19Z beach: In Common Lisp, you have to call GG even if x is negative, and then signal an error when < is called with a complex number.
2015-05-01T04:30:35Z Bike: i wonder if that's explicitly defined anywhere?
2015-05-01T04:31:28Z White_Flame: at least in SBCL, I often get a warning about removing unused code, for that whch follows always-failing or infinite looping code
2015-05-01T04:31:37Z beach: Probably not.  But it is implicit in the definition of the semantics of each operator.
2015-05-01T04:32:13Z White_Flame: so even as-is, those warnings could be configured to propagate outwards
2015-05-01T04:33:33Z White_Flame: that defun ff's type signature could also claim x to be a positive integer, to provoke warnings while still compliant, if it doesn't alreay
2015-05-01T04:33:42Z White_Flame: s/integer/number
2015-05-01T04:33:57Z White_Flame: s/positive/non-negative/ :-P
2015-05-01T04:34:26Z beach: Not quite, actually.
2015-05-01T04:34:36Z beach: GG can contain a THROW.
2015-05-01T04:34:55Z beach: So that < never gets executed.
2015-05-01T04:34:58Z White_Flame: ah right, that skips teh condition system?
2015-05-01T04:35:25Z beach: But I see what you mean.  An example can be constructed that can't THROW.
2015-05-01T04:35:33Z White_Flame: (presuming "ignore" = ignore-errors in the example)
2015-05-01T04:35:50Z Bike: throw ignores pretty much everything not involving unwind-protect, sure.
2015-05-01T04:36:12Z beach: White_Flame: No, IGNORE was just a local variable.
2015-05-01T04:36:42Z White_Flame: yes, the perils of reading single-line lisp and being too used to indentation
2015-05-01T04:36:57Z beach: Right.  Sorry about that.
2015-05-01T04:37:01Z Bike: compiler is allowed to make (if (< z y) ...) (if (typep z 'real) (locally (declare (real z)) (if (< z y) ...)) (error ...)), tho
2015-05-01T04:38:02Z emaczen: Are there other ways to concatenate strings besides (concatenate 'string ..)
2015-05-01T04:38:12Z White_Flame: (format nil "..." thing1 thing2 thing3)
2015-05-01T04:38:13Z beach: Bike: Definitely.  And it can insert (if (< x 0) ...) at the beginning of FF, duplicate the rest, and optimize for the case where (>= x 0).
2015-05-01T04:38:30Z White_Flame: (with a real format string, that is)
2015-05-01T04:39:00Z emaczen: White_Flame: I'll give it a try
2015-05-01T04:39:10Z emaczen: For the specific case that I'm looking at
2015-05-01T04:39:33Z White_Flame: if I'm peppering in lots of small literal strings, I tend to prefer format
2015-05-01T04:39:58Z White_Flame: if everything to concatenate is already in a variable, I tend to prefer concatenate
2015-05-01T04:41:03Z emaczen: White_Flame, yeah this is working out better so far. I had some ~C #\tabs and it was problematic with concatenate
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2015-05-01T04:42:57Z White_Flame: beach: and one could imagine a system where the optimized case is broken out to a separate function, and call sites where x>0 is known can directly call that
2015-05-01T04:43:27Z White_Flame: s/>/>=/ dangit I'm imprecise tonight
2015-05-01T04:44:17Z Slothel: Hmmm. I think to entertain myself for the rest of my shift I'm going to try to build a lisp script that will strip my html/css code of all whitespace when i save it and put the whitespace back in when i open it
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2015-05-01T04:44:33Z Slothel: Decent practical project to learn this language
2015-05-01T04:44:55Z White_Flame: of all whitespace not inside <pre> tags, you mean, right? :)
2015-05-01T04:45:28Z Slothel: White_Flame: yes, haha.
2015-05-01T04:45:56Z White_Flame: and certainly "redundant" whitespace, not "all" whitespace.  <title>ThisIsMyPage</title>
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2015-05-01T04:46:24Z beach: White_Flame: I am planning to do something like that in SICL.  I am thinking SQRT should be defined to test for a negative argument.  When inlined, it will automatically optimize then.
2015-05-01T04:46:26Z White_Flame: and spaces within strings in javascript...
2015-05-01T04:46:50Z Bike: the code path for sqrt of a negative number is probably somewhat distinct, so...
2015-05-01T04:46:59Z beach: Right.
2015-05-01T04:47:21Z White_Flame: beach: cool.  I guess one way to look at it is that it exposes compiler macro style functionality from normal functions
2015-05-01T04:47:24Z Bike: and for complexes, too. i don't even remember how to calculate that one. some newton shit i suppose
2015-05-01T04:48:14Z beach: White_Flame: I am planning to do it at the AST level.
2015-05-01T04:48:33Z beach: Bike: I forget too.
2015-05-01T04:48:38Z Bike: compiler macros are nice in that the lisp is simple, but they pretty inevitably can't take advantage of a lot of what the compiler does, which sucks
2015-05-01T04:48:40Z White_Flame: right, that exposing would be purely automatic
2015-05-01T04:48:53Z White_Flame: as opposed to manual compiler macros
2015-05-01T04:48:54Z beach: Exactly.
2015-05-01T04:50:10Z beach: I am thinking of using compiler macros only to turn N-ary functions such as + and * into binary functions, and for processing &optional and &key arguments at compile time.
2015-05-01T04:50:49Z Slothel: Yeah, so I should have been more precise. Redundant whitespace is what I'm going to remove. Nothing that would break the functionality of the code
2015-05-01T04:50:54Z Bike: i think sbcl and ccl do the first one, and &key for specific ones
2015-05-01T04:51:34Z beach: Bike: I believe you.  I haven't looked.
2015-05-01T04:51:50Z Bike: just trying to encourage you, or something!
2015-05-01T04:52:07Z beach: Oh, OK.  Thanks! :)
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2015-05-01T05:18:01Z Slothel: Hey, quick question but I couldn't really find a comprehensive answer on google
2015-05-01T05:18:59Z Slothel: Can you connect to a SQL database with Lisp? And if so, does anyone here have enough experience with SQL to know if you can reuse a connection for multiple users so that I'm not creating 1000 db connections to service all the visitors to my site?
2015-05-01T05:19:29Z Bike: there's a couple libraries for it
2015-05-01T05:19:36Z Bike: http://www.cliki.net/SQL
2015-05-01T05:19:40Z drmeister: beach: The type inference needs some sort of rule set regarding what functions produce and require what types - doesn't it?
2015-05-01T05:20:51Z White_Flame: Slothel: I've found postmodern to be a very nice package for connecting to postgresql
2015-05-01T05:21:46Z Slothel: White_Flame: Thanks. Excuse my ignorance but, is it even feasible to use one connection to service more than one visitor? I just need to pull some info from the db to display and the info is going to be the same regardless of which user is accessign
2015-05-01T05:22:41Z White_Flame: I know that it can run multiple transactions from a single connection.  To reuse a connection, you're going to have to have all use go through whatever process is holding that connection anyway
2015-05-01T05:23:09Z White_Flame: when it comes to different database account users, I don't know enough
2015-05-01T05:24:14Z White_Flame: but in terms of web visitors, that's likely all through the same database user
2015-05-01T05:24:56Z Slothel: White_Flame: Right, the user doesn't matter. My blueprint right now is like, visit page x, page x has hard-coded call to set up a db connection, and I just want to be able to only open that connection once every y users
2015-05-01T05:25:12Z White_Flame: sure
2015-05-01T05:25:14Z Slothel: I'm not familiar enough with databases to know if a connection creates much overhead, or impacts performance significantly
2015-05-01T05:25:38Z White_Flame: it's a TCP socket connection, so it's not super lightweight in terms of latency
2015-05-01T05:25:47Z White_Flame: in terms of starting new ones
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2015-05-01T05:26:21Z beach: drmeister: The type declaration of functions should be enough, but even better is to have the AST available and inline it.
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2015-05-01T05:28:06Z drmeister: Got it - thanks.
2015-05-01T05:29:12Z drmeister: Aside:  I was talking with one of my colleagues today and we were talking about a large software package written in C++ that people are starting to have a lot of trouble working with.
2015-05-01T05:29:31Z beach: So here is a possible project to end all bootstrapping debates: BCL (Bootstrap Common Lisp).  Written in highly-portable C.  Emphasis on simplicity and maintainability.  Interpreted.  Using Boehm GC.  No TCO.  No immediate objects.  All objects have the same basic layout as standard-object.  Using the strictest limits that the Common Lisp HyperSpec allows such as just single-float, minimum number of return values.  Single threaded.
2015-05-01T05:29:32Z beach: Etc.
2015-05-01T05:29:47Z drmeister: He bemoaned the difficulty of engineering software that a lot of people can collaborate on.
2015-05-01T05:30:31Z White_Flame: beach: I'd actually use Forth.  It's the easiest language to bootstrap.
2015-05-01T05:30:33Z Slothel: So, it seems like we have these different paradigms to manage complexity of large systems, but some of these paradigms are growing super complex themselves, even to do trivial things. I don't have any specific examples but this is partly why I was drawn to Lisp
2015-05-01T05:30:44Z beach: drmeister: But he only considers C++?
2015-05-01T05:30:53Z drmeister: I pointed out that Emacs is a great example of a large software project that lots of people collaborated on.  It's a based on a Lisp and it's probably dynamic variables that makes it so much easier to collaborate with.
2015-05-01T05:30:59Z beach: White_Flame: That's an interesting idea.
2015-05-01T05:31:04Z Slothel: And I'm also kind of..disillusioned with OOP, but that's a super unpopular opinion
2015-05-01T05:31:24Z beach: Slothel: I take it you have used CLOS extensively?
2015-05-01T05:31:34Z H4ns: Slothel: come over to the clojure side, you'll get a lot of applause for that opinion there! :)
2015-05-01T05:31:35Z White_Flame: Slothel: that opinion is slowly growing
2015-05-01T05:31:54Z White_Flame: I tend to go for meta-programming and data-driven personally
2015-05-01T05:31:54Z Slothel: beach: Nope, I'm just starting to learn Lisp
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2015-05-01T05:32:26Z beach: Slothel: Then you should avoid some general statements of OOP, because the OOP style of CLOS is very different.
2015-05-01T05:32:39Z beach: drmeister: What did he say then?
2015-05-01T05:32:40Z Slothel: I had a funny idea one day to create a meta-language that could be trivially translated into different "real" languages but I don't know if a) that has been done b) if it's possible c) it sounds like Lisp
2015-05-01T05:32:54Z Slothel: beach: Sure, that's why I added the disclaimer about being drawn to Lisp
2015-05-01T05:33:02Z drmeister: He couldn't disagree.  But we are talking about just two examples.
2015-05-01T05:33:28Z drmeister: I was just looking at the acknowledgements list for Emacs - wow.   http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Acknowledgments.html
2015-05-01T05:33:32Z White_Flame: Slothel:  As I said elsewhere recently, Lisp lets you write pseudocode, then use macros to convert that into real code, making your pseudocode live.  Certainly sounds like C
2015-05-01T05:33:36Z H4ns: beach: the key critique of OOP is that it encourages mutability
2015-05-01T05:33:37Z White_Flame: option C, not language C!
2015-05-01T05:34:02Z beach: H4ns: Oh, from the Clojure people.  Sure.
2015-05-01T05:34:22Z Slothel: White_Flame: haha, I got what you meant.
2015-05-01T05:34:37Z White_Flame: drmeister: Emacs is like 40 thousand years old and open source, what do you expect? :)
2015-05-01T05:34:41Z H4ns: beach: i'd say from the functional programming people.
2015-05-01T05:34:53Z beach: Yes, of course.
2015-05-01T05:35:51Z beach: White_Flame: I think drmeister has seen old open-source projects written in other languages fall apart, the way Emacs has not done.
2015-05-01T05:36:14Z drmeister: White_Flame: The "wow" comes from how it still works with all those people working on it.
2015-05-01T05:36:22Z beach: I forget what the name of that computational-chemistry project was.  The one with translated Fortran and stuff in it.
2015-05-01T05:36:35Z Slothel: I like what I've seen from Clojure but I don't know how I feel about the JVM
2015-05-01T05:36:36Z drmeister: Rosetta - that's the one we were discussing.
2015-05-01T05:36:43Z beach: Right.  Rosetta.
2015-05-01T05:36:50Z Slothel: I've also looked at Haskell and I think that's the next thing I'll learn after Lisp
2015-05-01T05:37:02Z Slothel: It's too bad that the stuff that I find interesting is completely unmarketable
2015-05-01T05:37:28Z drmeister: It's still the bees knees but it's a very difficult piece of software to use.
2015-05-01T05:37:44Z Bike: eh, everything's like that to some extent.
2015-05-01T05:39:08Z beach: drmeister: Another interesting example is ITA.  I recall reading that it's the very fact that they use Common Lisp that they were able to beat a system written in assembler with respect to performance; not of the raw code, but because it is impossibly to attempt such complex stuff in lower-level languages.
2015-05-01T05:41:49Z drmeister: Scientific software takes "difficult to use" to another level.
2015-05-01T05:42:23Z beach: What do you mean?
2015-05-01T05:42:27Z drmeister: Before I started grad school I spent a year writing a new front end for AMBER, a molecular dynamics package.
2015-05-01T05:42:37Z Bike: have you never used scientific software, beach?
2015-05-01T05:42:54Z drmeister: Hand editing fortran format input files to set up runs.  Brrr.
2015-05-01T05:43:23Z beach: Bike: I might not have, actually.  I still remember the first day I tried using floats, because my entire training had skipped them. :)
2015-05-01T05:43:33Z Bike: at work one of the main entry functions has a dozen ish parameters, each of which is a struct with a dozen or so entries, and that's after i rewrote it
2015-05-01T05:44:13Z Bike: you also used to control one parameter by commenting out particular sections of code.
2015-05-01T05:44:16Z Bike: good stuff all.
2015-05-01T05:44:18Z beach: That sounds more like "crap software" than "scientific software".
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2015-05-01T05:44:44Z Bike: enlightenment is realizing that there is no boundary
2015-05-01T05:44:47Z beach: I mean, there is nothing intrinsic in scientific software that makes it necessary to write it like that.
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2015-05-01T05:45:05Z Bike: oh, of course not, but scientists don't care about programming best practices.
2015-05-01T05:45:18Z beach: It is just a matter of putting people with no training in software engineering to attempt to write software.
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2015-05-01T05:46:26Z White_Flame: beach: you mean like drmeister? *runs*
2015-05-01T05:46:27Z beach: drmeister: That's another difference between Rosetta and Emacs.  Richard Stallman has a long history of software development.
2015-05-01T05:49:57Z beach: White_Flame: Like almost anything else, software engineering can be learned.  And drmeister is a smart guy, so he can learn it.  But it is clear that Clasp is suffering from some of his lack of training.  I have no doubt that these things will be corrected eventually as drmeister learns more and gets more help.
2015-05-01T05:51:05Z Quadrescence: yes drmeister needs to learn the VISITOR PATTERN and FLYWHEEL PATTERN
2015-05-01T05:51:05Z Bike: i was reading some old computational chemistry papers the other day and they mentioned running into problems with portability and  PRNGs "even in Fortran", it was cute
2015-05-01T05:51:57Z beach: Bike: Sounds bad.
2015-05-01T05:53:06Z Bike: It also gave printing costs for all the computer generated figures. Very cute.
2015-05-01T05:53:29Z beach: Different world.
2015-05-01T05:55:08Z beach: White_Flame: A big difference between drmeister and most of "those other people" is that drmeister knows that developing software is nontrivial, where as I have met many scientists who think that anybody can do it without any training.
2015-05-01T05:55:22Z drmeister: ... and I have a REPL
2015-05-01T05:55:36Z drmeister: with tagged pointers.
2015-05-01T05:56:02Z Bike: to be fair, i know many programmers who think that too
2015-05-01T05:56:23Z beach: White_Flame: As a consequence, these people also think that any formal training program in CS or programming or related domains is useless and ought to be canceled in favor of more money to their own precious discipline.
2015-05-01T05:56:43Z beach: Bike: I know.
2015-05-01T05:57:26Z White_Flame: beach: Yes, just throwing around a "ha ha, just serious" poke :)
2015-05-01T05:57:43Z White_Flame: I don't have my degree either, and my incompleted field of study was electrical engineering
2015-05-01T05:58:10Z beach: White_Flame: Thanks for that poke.  It gave me the opportunity to once again say what I think. :)
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2015-05-01T05:58:32Z White_Flame: yep, I do the same :)
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2015-05-01T06:04:27Z drmeister: Right - I'm off to bed - good night all.  Thanks for the stimulating discussion.
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2015-05-01T06:13:43Z atgnag_: On lisp-koans, what is the expected answer for koans/special-forms.lsp on line 64?
2015-05-01T06:13:51Z atgnag_: I couldn't figure that out for some reason.
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2015-05-01T06:24:14Z beach: atgnag_: The test is wrong it seems.
2015-05-01T06:24:25Z beach: Because it assigns to a global variable A that is not defined.
2015-05-01T06:25:33Z beach: Other than that, A is 100 in (* 10 A), so B is  1000.
2015-05-01T06:26:42Z beach: So, no taker for my BCL idea?  I said C, but any notation considered "universally available" would do of course.
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2015-05-01T06:38:50Z Shinmera: Happy labour day, #lisp
2015-05-01T06:39:31Z White_Flame goes into labor to celebrate
2015-05-01T06:40:24Z beach: Shinmera: Hello.  Thanks.  You too.
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2015-05-01T07:17:24Z White_Flame: Where is the appropriate place to put type declarations for LOOP iteration variables?
2015-05-01T07:17:31Z beach: Yes.
2015-05-01T07:17:48Z beach: (loop for x of-type (integer 10 20) from ...)
2015-05-01T07:18:05Z White_Flame: ah, I've been looking for declare, didn't notice of-type
2015-05-01T07:18:30Z beach: The OF-TYPE can be left out for certain simple types, such as fixnum.
2015-05-01T07:19:08Z beach: (loop for x fixnum from A to B do ...)
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2015-05-01T07:25:07Z Shinmera: And sometimes of-type will be mysteriously ignored, I've found.
2015-05-01T07:25:15Z Shinmera: Declaring types with LOOP can be a huge pain.
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2015-05-01T07:31:22Z beach: White_Flame: You can also use destructuring with types: (loop for (x . y) of-type (fixnum . cons) in list do ...)
2015-05-01T07:31:48Z White_Flame: cool
2015-05-01T07:31:51Z beach implemented LOOP not too long ago.
2015-05-01T07:32:13Z White_Flame: I'm just doing a numeric for x = val then expr
2015-05-01T07:33:00Z White_Flame: and of course, numeric types is where inference needs the most help to optimize
2015-05-01T07:33:38Z ehu: beach: you implemented LOOP ground up?
2015-05-01T07:33:51Z ehu: from the ...
2015-05-01T07:33:52Z beach: ehu: Yes.  As part of SICL.
2015-05-01T07:34:08Z ehu: wow.
2015-05-01T07:34:17Z beach: ehu: It has some interesting features, other than having fewer bugs that some of the existing ones.
2015-05-01T07:34:19Z ehu: nice. but where do you find the time.
2015-05-01T07:34:32Z beach: ehu: It's my job.  I am doing research.
2015-05-01T07:34:55Z beach: ehu: As long as I find enough material to publish a few papers per year, I am OK.
2015-05-01T07:35:32Z ehu: what's the subject of your research, if you're re-implementing most of CL?
2015-05-01T07:36:07Z beach: Whatever I come across.  With LOOP I did a combinatorial parser that makes the entire thing modular.
2015-05-01T07:36:11Z beach: That's publishable.
2015-05-01T07:36:22Z beach: I improved on CLOS dispatch.
2015-05-01T07:36:44Z ehu: performace wise or correctness?
2015-05-01T07:36:45Z beach: I created a non-consing version of COUNT :FROM-END T.
2015-05-01T07:37:00Z beach: CLOS?  Performance.
2015-05-01T07:37:18Z beach: I showed how to use first-class global environments without performance penalty.
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2015-05-01T07:38:09Z ehu: those are interesting subjects in the area of CL, but why would a paper get accepted? I mean, do these findings have broader applicability?
2015-05-01T07:38:22Z beach: I showed that a mark-and-compact GC for the nursery has good performance.
2015-05-01T07:38:27Z ehu: or at least broader interest?
2015-05-01T07:38:56Z beach: I submit to ILC and ELS.
2015-05-01T07:39:00Z ehu: ah.
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2015-05-01T07:39:22Z beach: But yeah, faster generic dispatch is more generally useful.
2015-05-01T07:39:55Z ehu: so that secures your job then?
2015-05-01T07:40:19Z beach: It would be secure anyway.  But yeah, I justify my salary that way.
2015-05-01T07:41:02Z ehu: oh. in the NL, you'd need to get a seat renewed every few years and write a proposal for research.
2015-05-01T07:41:05Z ehu: you don't have that?
2015-05-01T07:41:13Z beach: No.
2015-05-01T07:41:21Z ehu: if your proposal doesn't make it, you're out of a job.
2015-05-01T07:41:53Z beach: You do what you need to do.
2015-05-01T07:42:00Z jackdaniel: hm, how to peek what test results were (cl-test-grid)? I run tests, they got uploaded *somwhere*, and deleted from my local directory
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2015-05-01T07:44:05Z beach: ehu: Given that what passes for fundable research is largely a fad, I am glad I don't have to play that game.
2015-05-01T07:44:05Z ehu: jackdaniel: I think they get uploaded to some google group?
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2015-05-01T07:44:19Z ehu: right.
2015-05-01T07:44:54Z ehu: I was thinking how that game mostly supports "research" which is highly likely to provide the desired outcome.
2015-05-01T07:45:10Z beach: Sure.
2015-05-01T07:45:20Z kami: Good morning.
2015-05-01T07:45:37Z beach: Where what is "desired" is determined by people who should do something else.
2015-05-01T07:45:42Z beach: Hello kami.
2015-05-01T07:45:47Z jackdaniel: ehu: hm, I've found only report, that results has got uploaded (in mailing list)
2015-05-01T07:46:17Z ehu: ok. you might want to contact Anton Vodonosov who wrote cl-test-grid.
2015-05-01T07:46:26Z ehu: he should be able to help you find the results.
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2015-05-01T07:46:58Z jackdaniel: right, that seems most straightforward
2015-05-01T07:47:09Z ehu: I only ever used results produced by him.
2015-05-01T07:47:18Z beach: For example, OS research is stone dead, because someone thinks we already have the best there is.
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2015-05-01T07:48:14Z ehu: makes you wonder why there's development on OSes at all then.
2015-05-01T07:48:15Z beach: Research on rewrite systems died very suddenly, costing the career of one of my colleagues.
2015-05-01T07:48:24Z jackdaniel: worse is better?
2015-05-01T07:48:39Z ehu: (and when I needed results, I'd ask him to run it for ABCL)
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2015-05-01T07:49:29Z beach: ehu: There is not much.  And most of it assumes the same old Unix-style OS that we have had for the past 40 years or more.
2015-05-01T07:49:56Z jackdaniel: ehu: yes, he also produced for me really helpfull comparisons - I just don't want to put too much on him, if I don't have to
2015-05-01T07:50:07Z kephra: beach, you are a CS research who know Lisp internals?
2015-05-01T07:50:27Z beach: kephra: I would think so, yes.
2015-05-01T07:51:03Z kephra hugs beach - perhaps you can tell me
2015-05-01T07:51:34Z ehu: hmm. he must be a bad scientist: he thinks he knows something; good scientists know that they don't know :-)
2015-05-01T07:51:56Z ehu runs
2015-05-01T07:52:15Z beach doesn't think CS is science, so he does not think of himself as a scientist.  
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2015-05-01T07:52:25Z kephra: I'm currently writing a new Scheme interpreter in JS - but I'm neither using McEval nor CPS - and nobody so far could tell me who did same path before, and whats the name of my interpreter
2015-05-01T07:53:47Z kephra: so, my hope is, beach - that I might explain how my interpreter works, and you might tell me: this had been done 196x by YXZ real url ;-)
2015-05-01T07:54:15Z kephra: pm, ok? beach
2015-05-01T07:54:42Z beach: kephra: I can try.  But you would be much better off reading "Lisp in Small Pieces".  It has several interpreters and several compilers.
2015-05-01T07:54:54Z beach: I am sure one of them would fit yours.
2015-05-01T07:54:56Z kephra: its none of them, I think
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2015-05-01T07:55:31Z beach: kephra: It is also possible that there is no generally-accepted name for all interpreters of that type.
2015-05-01T07:55:53Z kephra: could be: lets explain how my interpreter works
2015-05-01T07:55:55Z beach: kephra: So, anyway, go ahead and describe it.
2015-05-01T07:56:11Z kephra: first of all I have a stack of objects called code
2015-05-01T07:57:07Z kephra: new code is pushed on the stack, and the interpreter itself is non recursive while (code.pop()) { ... }
2015-05-01T07:57:42Z kephra: there are basically two kinds of code: q:eue codes, and r:esolve code
2015-05-01T07:57:55Z kephra: new code is mostly pushed as queue code
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2015-05-01T07:59:33Z beach: Your stack sounds like an ordinary explicit control stack, mostly used with compilers rather than interpreters.
2015-05-01T07:59:35Z kephra: queue code might be an number or string (do nothing), a symbol (lookup in environment), an expression (queue a resolve code and queue the parameters in reverse)
2015-05-01T08:00:24Z beach: Maybe not.
2015-05-01T08:00:33Z kephra: each code object has its own link to an environment, each code object has one or two stacks called pile and and queue objects have stack
2015-05-01T08:01:12Z kephra: the pile is the stack every return result is pushed to, the stack is the other side of the pile - the arguments of an expression to resolve
2015-05-01T08:02:05Z kephra: special forms are implemented Forth like using a build and a does part
2015-05-01T08:02:08Z beach: Sounds complicated.  The stack has objects on it that themselves have other stacks.
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2015-05-01T08:03:17Z beach: I have never heard of anything like that before.
2015-05-01T08:03:20Z kephra: echo code stack object is either queue, or resolve, has an environment stack, a stack called pile where to deliver returns, and if its a resolve code a stack called stack from where to get those
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2015-05-01T08:03:50Z White_Flame: the pile & stack are two ends of the same data structure?
2015-05-01T08:04:50Z White_Flame: ie, push onto the pile, pop that item off the stack after popping older things off
2015-05-01T08:04:52Z beach: kephra: You either need to clean up your terminology, or define it explicitly.  Why would a number have a link to an environment, for instance?
2015-05-01T08:04:53Z kephra: yes - White_Flame: all expressions push the results to their pile, while resolved commands get their arguments for this same stack
2015-05-01T08:05:20Z beach: And you need to define "resolve".
2015-05-01T08:05:53Z kephra: beach, a number does not a link to an environment. The queue code that evalutes the number (to itself) has an enviroment, because it could be a symbol
2015-05-01T08:06:44Z beach: kephra: You need to get your terminology straight.  You said "each code object has its own link to an environment".
2015-05-01T08:07:01Z beach: and "queue code might be an number"
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2015-05-01T08:07:45Z beach: Apparently, both arguments and expressions can be "resolved".  But normally arguments are objects that are computed from the evaluation of expressions.
2015-05-01T08:08:22Z kephra: lets say I have: (+ (* 2 3) 4)
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2015-05-01T08:09:20Z kephra: http://kephra.de/o3proto/unloop.html <- take a look at debug output (and HTML code contains scheme code)
2015-05-01T08:09:54Z beach: You still need to define your terminology.
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2015-05-01T08:11:18Z White_Flame: from what little I can gather so far, I'd say it's a novel convolution of functionally equivalent existing interpreter structure :)
2015-05-01T08:12:10Z kephra: I have a stack of code objects containing that are either queue or resolve code. The code is interpreted non recursive in a while pop code loop
2015-05-01T08:14:02Z kephra: new code is pushed to the stack as queue code - non special forms will queue their operants first in reverse order, and next queue their resolve code
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2015-05-01T08:14:55Z kephra: special forms, symbols and other things are already evaluted in queue
2015-05-01T08:15:56Z beach: kephra: It is very hard to understand what you are describing because you are not defining your terminology, and you might be using standard terms in non-standard ways.
2015-05-01T08:16:15Z kephra: each code object has its own link to an enviroment, and one link to a stack where to push results, and an optional stack for resolve commands where to get evaluted operatnts
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2015-05-01T08:17:50Z kephra: beach, perhaps a look in the source can help: function contCode in http://kephra.de/o3proto/o3scm.js
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2015-05-01T08:19:48Z kephra: beach, and well - I might have a terminolgy problem - it might look like a Scheme that is written by a Forth coder - so I have a CFA (code field area), NFA (name field area), MFA (macro field area), and lots of other odder acronyms
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2015-05-01T08:26:03Z beach: kephra: Looking at source will definitely not help unless the terminology is clear.
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2015-05-01T08:27:36Z kephra: http://kephra.de/o3proto/unloop.html <- did you look at the debug output - so queue and resolve are clear?
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2015-05-01T08:27:58Z beach: I looked at it, but I have no idea what queue and resolve mean.
2015-05-01T08:28:25Z beach: I mean a queue object is stacked, not queued, and I don't know the relationship between "resolve" and "evaluate".
2015-05-01T08:28:42Z beach: They can't be the same because you also "resolve" arguments, and arguments are already evaluated.
2015-05-01T08:28:47Z beach: etc, etc, etc.
2015-05-01T08:29:19Z beach: number is an object, every object has a link to an environment, but numbers don't have a link to an environment.
2015-05-01T08:29:23Z kephra: every expression starts with a queue command, non special forms that have operants, will queue their operatants, and a resolve of them
2015-05-01T08:29:53Z kephra: beach, every code object has a link to enviromnent
2015-05-01T08:30:04Z kephra: a number is not a code object (directly)
2015-05-01T08:30:07Z beach: This is the first time we hear about a "queue command".  Before you had "resolve commands" but not "queue commands".
2015-05-01T08:30:12Z beach: It goes on and on and on.
2015-05-01T08:30:12Z kephra: but a code object can contain a number
2015-05-01T08:30:19Z beach: You really need to define your terminology.
2015-05-01T08:30:43Z kephra: <kephra> there are basically two kinds of code: q:eue codes, and r:esolve code <- 2nd line of my explaination
2015-05-01T08:30:47Z beach: You said "queue code might be an number or string"
2015-05-01T08:31:06Z beach: kephra: I think you need to go back and define your terminology.
2015-05-01T08:31:47Z kephra: ok, a bit slower: code is a stack of commands, each command is either q:eue or r:resolve
2015-05-01T08:31:48Z beach: You really can't expect anyone to understand what you are saying when you don't define your terminology and you contradict what you previously said.
2015-05-01T08:32:21Z beach: Why are these commands called queue and resolve?
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2015-05-01T08:32:30Z beach: As opposed to blue and green for instance?
2015-05-01T08:32:33Z kephra: each command has an operation, e.g. a number, symbol, form, a link to the enviromnent stack, and a link to a stack called pile where to return its results
2015-05-01T08:33:02Z beach: kephra: This is the first time you use the word "operation".
2015-05-01T08:33:04Z kephra: and if its a resolve command it has a link to a stack called stack
2015-05-01T08:33:21Z beach: Do you see what I am saying?
2015-05-01T08:33:29Z kephra: i've subsumed this under "code"
2015-05-01T08:33:52Z beach: Go back, write it down in the form of a coherent document.  Then we can talk.
2015-05-01T08:34:31Z kephra: i'm a coder - not a scientist - i founded two universities ( UNAM and internation university Bremen ) but never made a degree - i'm not a paper writer
2015-05-01T08:35:11Z beach: Then I am afraid we have a problem.  Because you can't expect anyone to understand it otherwise.
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2015-05-01T08:36:13Z kephra: I could translate it into pseudocode, if that helps?
2015-05-01T08:36:42Z kephra: but my writing, regardless if German, English or Frisian is horrible
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2015-05-01T08:40:03Z beach: kephra: Good communication skills in some natural language are absolutely necessary in order to communicate any aspect of programming.
2015-05-01T08:40:49Z kephra: I can explain things face to face - on paper
2015-05-01T08:41:11Z kephra: and sometimes I even find people who understand my written words
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2015-05-01T08:41:50Z beach: Great!
2015-05-01T08:42:06Z kephra: do you think pseudocode might help?
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2015-05-01T08:42:22Z beach: Not unless the terminology is clearly defined first.
2015-05-01T08:42:38Z kephra: you can query each term - if unclear
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2015-05-01T08:44:11Z beach: Maybe I'm old school or impatient or something, but I need a document that I can read and search for the meaning of terms.  Only when the terminology is well defined and coherent can I start to understand what is going on.  Maybe you have better luck with someone else.
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2015-05-01T08:46:43Z kephra: 😃
2015-05-01T08:48:13Z Shinmera: beach: Once I'm "done" with my markless specification, I really want you to read it for exactly this reason.
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2015-05-01T08:48:40Z beach: Shinmera: Excellent!
2015-05-01T08:48:41Z Shinmera: Turns out, trying to be precise about a markup spec is really difficult.
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2015-05-01T08:48:56Z beach: I shall have a good time reading it then. :)
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2015-05-01T08:49:34Z beach: I am afraid I am a disappointment to kephra, but I am trying to be as clear about it as I possibly can.
2015-05-01T08:49:59Z Shinmera: I tried to read up, but I have no idea what anything is of any that was described, so I don't think I can be of help either :/
2015-05-01T08:50:23Z beach: Whew!  I was afraid that I was losing it or something.
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2015-05-01T08:51:34Z beach: When can I expect the specification?
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2015-05-01T08:52:22Z Shinmera: I've been working on it for some months now (though I haven't done anything to it last month... too busy), and I'm not close to done, so, probably quite a while.
2015-05-01T08:52:40Z beach: OK.  I'll be here.
2015-05-01T08:52:47Z beach: [I hope]
2015-05-01T08:53:02Z Shinmera: I can give you a draft to read once I have the major road block of the moment worked out.
2015-05-01T08:53:14Z beach: Up to you.
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2015-05-01T09:27:56Z beach: OK, so I understand that there are no takers for my suggested project "BCL".  But I would like to know whether people generally think it is a good idea, or just some useless suggestion.
2015-05-01T09:28:05Z beach: Let me show the suggestion again:
2015-05-01T09:28:39Z beach: So here is a possible project to end all bootstrapping debates: BCL (Bootstrap Common Lisp).  Written in highly-portable C.  Emphasis on simplicity and maintainability.  Interpreted.  Using Boehm GC.  No TCO.  No immediate objects.  All objects have the same basic layout as standard-object.  Using the strictest limits that the Common Lisp HyperSpec allows such as just single-float, minimum number of return values.  Single threaded.
2015-05-01T09:28:39Z beach: Etc.
2015-05-01T09:30:57Z kephra: http://kephra.de/o3proto/Implementation.html <- beach I tried on an annotated simplified code
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2015-05-01T09:32:27Z SAL9000: beach: sounds like a great idea
2015-05-01T09:32:44Z beach: kephra: Looks very neat and tidy.
2015-05-01T09:32:52Z beach: SAL9000: Thanks.
2015-05-01T09:33:25Z kephra: beach, mainly deleted all the error catching
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2015-05-01T09:34:13Z beach: kephra: What language is it?
2015-05-01T09:34:19Z kephra: javascript
2015-05-01T09:34:31Z beach: Oh, right.  I guess you said that.
2015-05-01T09:35:14Z kephra: http://kephra.de/o3proto/r4rs-subset.html <- take a look at current subset - I guess I'll be finished with r4rs regression test end of next week
2015-05-01T09:35:49Z beach: kephra: You understand that this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, right?
2015-05-01T09:35:50Z kephra: the drop: debug is caused by the #;( reader macro )
2015-05-01T09:36:21Z kephra: yes, but Lisp and Scheme are similar when it comes to the question: how to implement it
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2015-05-01T09:40:14Z kephra: beach, btw - i've told, thats its Scheme (look like) in the beginning - and offered pm as alternative
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2015-05-01T10:10:06Z willemsh: hi
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2015-05-01T10:19:13Z beach: Hello willemsh.
2015-05-01T10:19:23Z willemsh: hi
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2015-05-01T10:22:04Z beach: willemsh: New here?
2015-05-01T10:22:14Z willemsh: yes
2015-05-01T10:22:34Z ehu: welcome
2015-05-01T10:22:42Z willemsh: thanks
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2015-05-01T10:23:16Z beach: It's a bit slow.  The US-of-Asians are asleep and the Yerpeans are celebrating Mayday.
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2015-05-01T10:23:48Z willemsh: yes me too
2015-05-01T10:23:51Z kephra sings mayday mayday - please communist party - safe our souls ;-)
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2015-05-01T10:25:41Z willemsh: im looking for a portable lisp to play with
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2015-05-01T10:26:09Z H4ns: willemsh: what do you mean by "portable" exactly?
2015-05-01T10:26:41Z willemsh: an portable version that just descompress on a folder a runs
2015-05-01T10:26:49Z kephra: willemsh, clisp is highly portable common lisp in C
2015-05-01T10:27:15Z willemsh: no, i mean portable installation not portable code
2015-05-01T10:27:33Z kephra: do you need the byte code image to be portable across platforms?
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2015-05-01T10:28:14Z willemsh: no no
2015-05-01T10:28:16Z H4ns: willemsh: both sbcl and ccl run from their own installation directory which you can put anywhere you like
2015-05-01T10:28:33Z H4ns: willemsh: sbcl needs some info to run that way, ccl does it that way out of the box.
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2015-05-01T10:28:55Z kephra: *ok* willemsh - because portable bytecode will likely run into the problem that you need to dynamically link an ffi to do any modern stuff
2015-05-01T10:28:59Z willemsh: sblcl appears to need some environment variables
2015-05-01T10:29:15Z willemsh: im just learning
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2015-05-01T10:29:37Z H4ns: willemsh: right.  the README should have the required information
2015-05-01T10:30:38Z willemsh: i've only read some articles and see some videos
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2015-05-01T10:32:08Z willemsh: so i want to learn to load libraries and some basic stuff
2015-05-01T10:32:30Z willemsh: do something more advanced than hello world
2015-05-01T10:32:39Z willemsh: ive tried emacs
2015-05-01T10:32:53Z H4ns: willemsh: you will need quicklisp https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/
2015-05-01T10:33:14Z H4ns: willemsh: with quicklisp, you can install quicklisp-slime-helper to get a working slime setup in emacs
2015-05-01T10:33:17Z kephra: willemsh, emacs is great, to get an idea of the power of Lisp (like languages)
2015-05-01T10:34:28Z willemsh: ive read that you can do very real work
2015-05-01T10:34:40Z willemsh: efficient and elegant in lisp
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2015-05-01T10:34:57Z H4ns: willemsh: can you press return only when you've finished your sentence, please?  thanks.
2015-05-01T10:35:34Z willemsh: im a mostly java/groovy developer. no problem with that H4ns
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2015-05-01T10:44:44Z pjb: kephra: i did that 2 stacks in the first version of my lse system.  i dropped it when i realised that it was just a compiler keeping recompiling the same code over and over.
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2015-05-01T10:46:26Z kephra: pjb, one can see it as a compiler with immediate execution, or as a non recursive continuation passing
2015-05-01T10:46:28Z pjb: kephra: now i just compile upon reading the source line an keep the bytecode vectors for the vm
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2015-05-01T10:46:58Z pjb: kephra: http://nasium-lse.ogamita.com/
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2015-05-01T10:51:05Z kephra: the main reason of coding a non recursive interpreter is, that AJAX requests are only send when the JS engine returns. So I can not use a simile McEval, but basically coded a non recursive CPS interpreter that handles the stacks by hand
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2015-05-01T10:51:46Z kephra: at least it feels like CPS: I get tail optimization, lexical scoping, and continuations for free
2015-05-01T10:51:59Z pjb: cecece --> ccceee
2015-05-01T10:52:06Z jackdaniel: anyone will be kind enough to proofread ecl quarterly? (http://ix.io/ieM) thanks :-)
2015-05-01T10:52:33Z pjb: it's the same, only you'd use a little more space for the bytecode vector.
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2015-05-01T10:56:45Z kephra: pjb, LSD/LSE sounds like an Assurancetourix language
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2015-05-01T10:57:48Z pjb: it was developped in the early 70s on iris80 and minicomputers originally.
2015-05-01T10:58:17Z kephra: *oh* I though on a Questar or Micral
2015-05-01T10:58:32Z pjb: no, they went later.
2015-05-01T10:58:39Z kephra: *ah*
2015-05-01T10:59:04Z kephra: pm ok, to explain what I mean with Assurancetourix effect?
2015-05-01T10:59:13Z kephra: did you read the comics?
2015-05-01T10:59:15Z pjb: yes
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2015-05-01T11:18:05Z beach: jackdaniel: For starters, the first line says "MONTHLY". :)
2015-05-01T11:19:11Z beach: jackdaniel: "make little more noise" -> "make a little more noise"
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2015-05-01T11:19:36Z H4ns: "little more"?  "little" or "more" maybe?
2015-05-01T11:20:23Z beach: Or "a bit more"
2015-05-01T11:20:30Z beach: Something like that.
2015-05-01T11:21:20Z beach: "This is how the ECL Quarterly idea was born" maybe.
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2015-05-01T11:22:09Z beach: "anything, what is slightly" -> "anything that is slightly" (no comma)
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2015-05-01T11:23:03Z beach: "such materials will be also published" -> "such material will also be published" ("material" in singular form I think).
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2015-05-01T11:24:22Z beach: "After 13.3.7 release" -> "After the 13.3.7 release"
2015-05-01T11:24:30Z beach: er, 15.
2015-05-01T11:25:51Z jackdaniel: thanks :)
2015-05-01T11:26:26Z beach: "we have updated libraries, which we depend on" -> "libraries which we depend on" (no comma).  If you put a comma in there, it means "we have updated libraries", and we really depend on libraries".  Without the comma, it means "we have updated those libraries that we depend on".
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2015-05-01T11:26:39Z beach: In fact, purists would suggest you use "that" instead of "which".
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2015-05-01T11:27:09Z beach: In general, you have too many commas.  You should split your commas with drmeister, because he uses too few.
2015-05-01T11:27:36Z jackdaniel: ^_^
2015-05-01T11:27:43Z beach: "There was also update of GMP" -> "There was also an update of GMP"
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2015-05-01T11:28:42Z beach: "we have also reworked .. macros" -> "we have also reworked the .. macros"
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2015-05-01T11:30:04Z beach: "Experimental branch contains" -> "The experimental branch contains" or "An experimental brtanch contains"
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2015-05-01T11:30:26Z beach: I'll read more later.  I need to call my brother.
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2015-05-01T11:32:13Z pillton: Is there an equivalent of named-readtable for managing *features* ?
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2015-05-01T11:36:32Z Xach: pillton: that locally binds *features* for the scope of a file?
2015-05-01T11:37:03Z pillton: Yeah. I want to use #+ and #- but without polluting *features*.
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2015-05-01T11:38:56Z Xach: pillton: Xof wrote a paper about a good way to manage *features*. I think his method would help avoid thinking of it as pollution.
2015-05-01T11:39:19Z pillton: Xach: Cheers. I will check it out.
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2015-05-01T11:41:20Z Xach: pillton: http://jcsu.jesus.cam.ac.uk/~csr21/papers/features.pdf
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2015-05-01T11:42:21Z pillton: Xach: Thanks. I was just about to ask.
2015-05-01T11:42:26Z jackdaniel: beach: thanks, notes incorporated
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2015-05-01T11:56:06Z Xach: luis: is there to be a new slime release soon?
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2015-05-01T12:00:45Z jlbhshluekg: .
2015-05-01T12:00:45Z jlbhshluekg: did usa intelligence supply isis with weapons like they did with al-qaeda to justify creating wars?
2015-05-01T12:00:45Z jlbhshluekg: did usa excute the creative mess in the middle east like they said they will, does the creative mess include explosions with uncertain responsibles to create wars?
2015-05-01T12:00:45Z jlbhshluekg: plz, send my qs to help limiting usa & israel aggression against others& may then lessen number of people killed in the middle east.
2015-05-01T12:00:45Z jlbhshluekg: .did usa intelligence supply isis with weapons like they did with al-qaeda to justify creating wars?
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2015-05-01T12:01:25Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach
2015-05-01T12:01:30Z Xach has set mode +b *!*ogryof@197.194.141.*
2015-05-01T12:01:32Z jlbhshluekg [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (jlbhshluekg)
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2015-05-01T12:01:43Z p_l: oh, you were faster. Thanks
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2015-05-01T12:37:37Z willemsh: hi
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2015-05-01T12:50:45Z theos: beach thanks for that link the other day. (lispOS)
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2015-05-01T13:51:45Z matthavard: Does common lisp have a shortcut for (first (last list))?
2015-05-01T13:51:57Z H4ns: matthavard: no
2015-05-01T13:52:03Z matthavard: darn
2015-05-01T13:52:29Z H4ns: if you need it often enough to want such a shortcut, you're doing it wrong :)
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2015-05-01T13:53:05Z matthavard: H4ns: Even if I write a little `(defun last-el (list) (first (last list)))` and use that instead?
2015-05-01T13:53:31Z matthavard: I should probably have my list in the reverse order of what it is currently if I constantly need the last element
2015-05-01T13:54:07Z H4ns: matthavard: well, if you know that your lists are short, this might work, but in general, accessing the last element of a list is slow because the whole list needs to be traversed every time
2015-05-01T13:54:36Z H4ns: matthavard: if you always need the tail, then consider reversing it.  if you need to access both ends often, consider using a vector.
2015-05-01T13:55:14Z matthavard: H4ns: That makes sense.  Vector literals are #(1 2 3) right?
2015-05-01T13:55:28Z H4ns: matthavard: correct.
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2015-05-01T13:55:33Z matthavard: cool
2015-05-01T13:55:36Z matthavard: well thanks
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2015-05-01T14:19:32Z tcleval: does anyone have this Sussman videos? http://avxhome.se/ebooks/Adventures_in_Advanced_Symbolic_Programming_Gerald_Jay_Sussman.html
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2015-05-01T14:32:10Z beach: theos: Sure.  Did you read it?
2015-05-01T14:32:54Z theos: beach read half of it and then i got distracted.
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2015-05-01T17:54:44Z Xach: easye: darn, i'm sad we didn't get you in on the key signing party at els
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2015-05-01T19:08:33Z Xof: someone should organize another one
2015-05-01T19:09:24Z Shinmera: I still have four keybase invites to give out too.
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2015-05-01T20:38:18Z drmeister: Xof: els was a great meeting
2015-05-01T20:38:48Z drmeister: I enjoyed myself thoroughly
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2015-05-01T20:58:28Z Xof: thanks!  I am working on videos
2015-05-01T20:58:39Z katco: Xach: you created quicklisp, correct?
2015-05-01T20:58:41Z Xof: hopefully by the end of the weekend I will have a rough cut of one or two of them
2015-05-01T21:00:15Z drmeister: katco: Yes, Xach created quicklisp. To which we are all very grateful.
2015-05-01T21:00:53Z katco: Xach: drmeister: i was just going to say, thank you for creating it. it allowed me to finally explore CL :)
2015-05-01T21:01:28Z katco: Xach: just read your synopsis on ELS, and realized you obviously hung out here. i mostly lurk, so i'm not familiar with the regulars
2015-05-01T21:02:00Z drmeister: Excellent - I didn't want to leave you hanging there in case Xach was AFK
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2015-05-01T21:15:36Z bizarrefish: Elo
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2015-05-01T21:16:52Z failproofshark: bizarrefish: hello
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2015-05-01T21:19:19Z Brozo: sup bizarrefish
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2015-05-01T21:24:32Z bizarrefish: Brozo: Not much. Thinking about multithreading. How do you lisp guys deal with it?
2015-05-01T21:24:58Z Brozo: I'm more like a lisp boy if not a lisp baby
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2015-05-01T21:25:33Z bizarrefish: I quite like erlang's model - lets have state, but one at a time allowed in a module.
2015-05-01T21:25:46Z bizarrefish: I'm sadly a lisp fan
2015-05-01T21:26:14Z bizarrefish: I wrote a pleasant web app for a friend in clojure a few years back, but really haven't been active in it as much as I should.
2015-05-01T21:26:37Z Brozo: What's the deal with haskell? why does everyone make fun of it?
2015-05-01T21:26:48Z Brozo: I'm getting into emacs so I'm trying to pickup lisp
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2015-05-01T21:27:17Z Brozo: in that vein I'm a coding baby
2015-05-01T21:27:26Z p_l: Brozo: there's a big group of mathwankers that suck the life out of Haskell. Among other things. (And no, I don't mean the guys who actually know adv. math)
2015-05-01T21:27:50Z bizarrefish: Brozo: Because every single ad-hoc pattern you or I have ever come up with, embedded deep in the fabric of our mess of code, the haskell guys have extracted and given a proper name and definition. Meaning they have a lot of words to learn :P
2015-05-01T21:28:18Z bizarrefish: Such as zygohistomorphic prepromorphism
2015-05-01T21:28:32Z bizarrefish: https://wiki.haskell.org/Zygohistomorphic_prepromorphisms
2015-05-01T21:28:37Z nyef: Wow, giving smug lisp weenies a good name?
2015-05-01T21:28:54Z p_l: nyef: hmm?
2015-05-01T21:28:57Z failproofshark: i still dont understand the burrito monoid jokes
2015-05-01T21:29:06Z bizarrefish: failproofshark: I believe that's monads
2015-05-01T21:29:08Z Brozo: weird
2015-05-01T21:29:12Z nyef: Well, clearly the smug haskell weenies are worse. d-:
2015-05-01T21:29:22Z p_l: bizarrefish: except haskell monads are not monads
2015-05-01T21:29:26Z failproofshark: bizarrefish: yes
2015-05-01T21:29:32Z jlarocco: hahaha, is that Haskell thing real?
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2015-05-01T21:29:59Z bizarrefish: Haskellers i've seen are generally humble. There's a thing about haskell, you need to leave your ego behind. You use it, you see god, you feel tiny, you feel inadequate.
2015-05-01T21:30:15Z failproofshark: thats... what she said?
2015-05-01T21:30:22Z failproofshark: i dont understand humor
2015-05-01T21:30:27Z bizarrefish: failproofshark: If by she, you mean GHC.
2015-05-01T21:30:27Z p_l: bizarrefish: dunno if you spent as much time at Queen Mother's Library with the old haskell books as me, but learning that the "monads" were a hack to remove worse things :)
2015-05-01T21:30:28Z failproofshark: i try though
2015-05-01T21:30:43Z p_l: was fun
2015-05-01T21:30:48Z bizarrefish: p_l: Let me guess, they had another way of doing IO before
2015-05-01T21:30:54Z p_l: bizarrefish: it involved time travel
2015-05-01T21:30:57Z bizarrefish: hmm
2015-05-01T21:31:07Z p_l: at least in the example code
2015-05-01T21:31:35Z failproofshark: did the time travel function take unix time stamps?
2015-05-01T21:31:54Z katco: is there a way to allocate/assign both values of this in a let statement?: (split-sequence:split-sequence #\Space my-str :count 2)
2015-05-01T21:32:25Z p_l: Brozo: generally, I'd separate Haskellers into mostly two or three camps - "normal programmers", "crazy mathematicians who know their stuff and do research", and "math wankers". Guess which ones are most vocal and setting tone :|
2015-05-01T21:32:27Z bizarrefish: p_l: Can't have time existing in haskell
2015-05-01T21:32:30Z nyef: katco: Sortof, but you might be better off with MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND.
2015-05-01T21:32:33Z bizarrefish: That's almost as bad as state
2015-05-01T21:33:04Z Brozo: p_l: aren't the wankers always the noisiest?
2015-05-01T21:33:07Z katco: nyef: alright, i'll go ahead and use that. ty!
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2015-05-01T21:33:42Z p_l: Brozo: unfortunately
2015-05-01T21:35:33Z failproofshark: ah time
2015-05-01T21:35:42Z failproofshark: i cant help but think of that "dont hug me im scared" video
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2015-05-01T21:50:54Z p_l: bizarrefish: btw, nice to see you again :)
2015-05-01T21:52:12Z bizarrefish: And yoursel
2015-05-01T21:52:14Z bizarrefish: -f
2015-05-01T21:52:29Z bizarrefish: It sure is lonely here in the internet
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2015-05-01T21:52:44Z bizarrefish: :)
2015-05-01T21:52:58Z Shinmera: Obviously, since everyone else is on the internet.
2015-05-01T21:53:31Z Brozo: except all the cool kids, nerds
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2015-05-01T21:54:37Z bizarrefish: I used to have human form, then I got digitized in an accident involving a Java 7 upgrade
2015-05-01T21:54:43Z bizarrefish: :<
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2015-05-01T21:55:43Z Brozo: it wasnt an accident
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2015-05-01T22:00:44Z matthavard: I started reading Paul Graham's On Lisp but I think he uses an older implementation of Common Lisp.  I'm using SBCL.  What is a good way to reconcile this?  Will I be able to run the vast majority of the examples in the book?
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2015-05-01T22:02:45Z pnpuff: Harder,Better,Faster,Stronger / Lose Yourself to Dance
2015-05-01T22:02:51Z p_l: matthavard: the examples should all work, it's not so much a language version as stylistic choices iirc
2015-05-01T22:03:05Z Shinmera: matthavard: I think the only problem that can occur is with the continuation passing macros.
2015-05-01T22:03:09Z Shinmera: See http://www.cliki.net/On%20lisp
2015-05-01T22:04:04Z pnpuff: Anthrax - Pipeline
2015-05-01T22:05:26Z pnpuff: ops sorry... I was thinking to be on #lispcafe :-(
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2015-05-02T03:29:27Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-05-02T03:37:46Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-05-02T03:59:49Z drmeister: Hi beach.
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2015-05-02T05:13:22Z protist: I made an html generation tool a while ago...what would be a decent name for it?
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2015-05-02T05:13:42Z protist: it is dynamic...uses list structures
2015-05-02T05:14:09Z protist: function rather than macro based...to be list interpolation friendly
2015-05-02T05:16:10Z beach: protist: Naming things is one of the hardest parts of programming.
2015-05-02T05:16:31Z beach: protist: For a project, I typically look for "words" that have few hits on Google.
2015-05-02T05:16:37Z protist: beach: agreed...not sure whether to use a descriptive name or one with attitude
2015-05-02T05:16:42Z beach: Minor misspellings are good for that.
2015-05-02T05:16:49Z protist: beach: ah
2015-05-02T05:17:18Z paul0: protist, cl-html-generatr
2015-05-02T05:17:24Z beach: And, I have an additional constraint, i.e., that the name contain "cl".
2015-05-02T05:17:31Z protist: beach: :)
2015-05-02T05:17:37Z paul0: a name that is web2.0 friendly
2015-05-02T05:17:45Z protist: beach: that name seems good, sounds official
2015-05-02T05:17:55Z beach: which one?
2015-05-02T05:18:00Z beach: I didn't suggest any.
2015-05-02T05:18:07Z protist: beach: I meant paul0 cl-html-generatr
2015-05-02T05:19:39Z beach: It sounds pretty bad to me actually.
2015-05-02T05:19:50Z protist: beach: I'm open to suggestions :)
2015-05-02T05:20:14Z protist: beach: compared to these names, I would download it first http://www.cliki.net/HTML%20generator
2015-05-02T05:20:24Z protist: beach: if only because the name is suggestive
2015-05-02T05:21:56Z protist: I tried durian for the first time today.... cl-durian sounds cool
2015-05-02T05:22:01Z protist: isn't suggestive at all though
2015-05-02T05:24:28Z beach: I would have tried something like "clarkup", but it gets hits on Google, so it's out.
2015-05-02T05:38:02Z Fare: protist: do we need yet another html generation tool?
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2015-05-02T05:38:17Z protist: Fare: I already made it haha
2015-05-02T05:38:19Z beach: Fare: Hi.  Is there something wrong with Tunes?
2015-05-02T05:38:28Z Fare: beach: me
2015-05-02T05:38:35Z beach: Fare: Oh?
2015-05-02T05:38:39Z protist: Fare: I made it because I didn't like the way the others worked...was just for me
2015-05-02T05:38:54Z beach: The log bot seems to have a problem.
2015-05-02T05:38:55Z Fare: what's different about it?
2015-05-02T05:38:56Z protist: Fare: but I want to learn about submitting to quicklisp now
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2015-05-02T05:39:26Z protist: Fare: uses list structures instead of macros...intended to be used with backtick so you can interpolate parts in
2015-05-02T05:39:33Z Fare: beach, oh, the bot is down again?
2015-05-02T05:39:42Z protist: Fare: maybe there is something like that out there, didn't see one I liked
2015-05-02T05:39:46Z beach: Fare: It was last I checked.
2015-05-02T05:40:14Z Fare: I see the process /usr/bin/perl -w /users/nef/.clog/clog running
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2015-05-02T05:40:49Z beach: Fare: It stopped creating files sometime 15.04.30.
2015-05-02T05:40:51Z protist: Fare: so like (html `(html (h1 "Hello World") (body (p ,stringvar))))
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2015-05-02T05:42:03Z protist: Fare: it is more interesting when you call functions within, and when you interpolate things like ,@(when cookie `(,(userbanner cookie)))
2015-05-02T05:42:08Z Fare: I seem not to be root anymore on bespin.org :-(
2015-05-02T05:43:06Z protist: Fare: that way the banner would be made if there is a cookie....if not then the `when' fails and you splice nil into the list structure (adding nothing)
2015-05-02T05:46:14Z Fare: I sent an email to the sysadmin...
2015-05-02T05:47:13Z Fare: protist: I remember fixing the html output of araneida / cliki, that was following this principle
2015-05-02T05:47:38Z Fare: except danb's original code was quadratic or such
2015-05-02T05:48:03Z Fare: by outputing to a stream rather than concatenating strings, I made it linear again.
2015-05-02T05:48:16Z Fare: the code is still in exscribe.
2015-05-02T05:48:25Z Fare: oh — have you seen exscribe?
2015-05-02T05:48:38Z Fare: btw, has anyone tried sly vs slime ?
2015-05-02T05:49:05Z protist: —?
2015-05-02T05:50:39Z protist: Fare: yeah mine is quadratic at the moment as well
2015-05-02T05:50:45Z protist: Fare: should fix that :p
2015-05-02T05:51:47Z protist: Fare: I don't see an example of Araneida's list structures on http://www.cliki.net/araneida
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2015-05-02T05:57:41Z Fare: protist: araneida is practically dead
2015-05-02T05:57:56Z Fare: but you can look at exscribe's html-dumper
2015-05-02T05:58:01Z Fare: which is derived from araneida
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2015-05-02T06:07:13Z beach: Fare: The email to the sysadmin is to address the log problem?
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2015-05-02T06:16:50Z Fare: beach: yes
2015-05-02T06:19:04Z beach: Fare: Great!  Thanks!
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2015-05-02T06:22:11Z protist: Fare: fixed mine to not be quadratic :)
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2015-05-02T06:38:43Z Fare: protist, you mean, now?
2015-05-02T06:38:55Z protist: Fare: yeah :)
2015-05-02T06:39:03Z Fare sees that exscribe has bitrotten. Sigh.
2015-05-02T06:39:17Z protist: Fare: not quadratic anymore, I was being lazy when I made it that way :p
2015-05-02T06:39:48Z protist: Fare: now I'm trying to package everything up as a system, I've never done this before
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2015-05-02T06:40:11Z protist: Fare: when i use asdf:load-system I get an error about one of my variables not being visible
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2015-05-02T06:40:34Z protist: Fare: I don't have this problem when i clisp -i main.lisp and then (use-package
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2015-05-02T06:52:04Z Fare: looks like a bug in the latest sbcl that breaks exscribe. Sigh.
2015-05-02T06:52:25Z Fare: protist: lisp paste?
2015-05-02T06:52:39Z Fare: package issue?
2015-05-02T06:53:01Z protist: Fare: just a second...just made some changes
2015-05-02T06:55:42Z protist: Fare: ah I got it to work
2015-05-02T06:55:55Z protist: Fare: it was something strange about variable scoping with a macro
2015-05-02T06:55:56Z Fare: ;   READ error during COMPILE-FILE: #<SB-IMPL::FORM-TRACKING-STREAM {1007ECB1C3}> is not positionable(in form starting at file-position: 17400)
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2015-05-02T06:55:59Z Fare: looks bad
2015-05-02T06:56:03Z protist: Fare: but I decided the macro wasn't needed :)
2015-05-02T06:56:33Z protist: Fare: was making a case analysis with a macro....switched to a hash table like I should have been using
2015-05-02T06:58:30Z Fare: apparently, I can no longer use SB-GRAY:STREAM-LINE-COLUMN on a SB-IMPL::FORM-TRACKING-STREAM
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2015-05-02T07:17:36Z protist: Fare: just added legible indentation
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2015-05-02T07:18:51Z Fare: wonderful, ccl won't run exscribe because it insists on interpreting option -I its own way.
2015-05-02T07:19:07Z Fare: and clisp won't run it because of some weird bug with its own fasl.
2015-05-02T07:19:55Z Fare: cmucl will have trouble with asdf upgrade
2015-05-02T07:19:59Z protist: Fare: my tag names are in all caps....I suppose that doesn't matter because it is html
2015-05-02T07:20:02Z protist: Fare: hmmm
2015-05-02T07:20:07Z Fare: it's like, massive bitrot all around
2015-05-02T07:21:09Z Fare: happily, lispworks to the rescue :-/
2015-05-02T07:21:13Z protist: Fare: I think I am going to go with cl-durian
2015-05-02T07:21:17Z protist: Fare: as the name
2015-05-02T07:21:39Z protist: Fare: do capital tagnames bother you?
2015-05-02T07:21:44Z Fare: on the one hand, I love that portable CL scripting is possible, so I can try all those different implementations
2015-05-02T07:21:50Z Fare: on the other hand...
2015-05-02T07:21:58Z protist: Fare: I mean you could just use quotes or do |symbol|
2015-05-02T07:22:08Z Fare: protist: I believe the xml standards say it should be lower-case
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2015-05-02T07:22:20Z protist: Fare: that is xml...but ah
2015-05-02T07:22:25Z Fare: even though the old html documents advertised uppercase.
2015-05-02T07:22:26Z protist: Fare: ok
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2015-05-02T07:22:41Z Fare: exscribe's html-dumper outputs valid xhtml
2015-05-02T07:22:50Z protist: Fare: well I could coerce everything to lowercase...but common lisp reads symbols in in caps
2015-05-02T07:23:08Z protist: Fare: coercing to lowercase seems like it would restrict people more than help
2015-05-02T07:23:15Z protist: Fare: as they can use quotes or |this|
2015-05-02T07:23:38Z Fare: protist: you can use *print-case* :downcase
2015-05-02T07:23:53Z protist: Fare: I'm not sure about making that a default...hmmm
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2015-05-02T07:24:14Z protist: Fare: because if someone is making xml....then wouldn't they want to be able to write camel case?
2015-05-02T07:24:41Z Fare: in html-dumper, I explicitly string-downcase the symbols
2015-05-02T07:24:52Z Fare: I didn't care about full xml, though.
2015-05-02T07:25:44Z protist: Fare: I'll add a *tag-letter-case* I think
2015-05-02T07:26:57Z Fare: welcome to hell
2015-05-02T07:27:24Z protist: or *tag-case*
2015-05-02T07:27:44Z protist: hmmmm
2015-05-02T07:28:33Z protist: *force-tag-lowercase*
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2015-05-02T07:34:28Z protist: Fare: now there is a *force-tags-lowercase*
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2015-05-02T07:40:27Z protist: anyone have more thoughts on names before I go with cl-durian?
2015-05-02T07:40:31Z protist: I'm not even sure on it
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2015-05-02T07:43:57Z Zhivago: Presumably it is intended to convey that it stinks?
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2015-05-02T07:45:28Z protist: Zhivago: :P
2015-05-02T07:45:45Z protist: Zhivago: just thought it sounded cool :p
2015-05-02T07:48:20Z Zhivago: How about cl-dur14n -- that would be extra cool.
2015-05-02T07:49:01Z Zhivago: cl-yahms mighth work.
2015-05-02T07:49:14Z protist: haha :)
2015-05-02T07:49:21Z Zhivago: Then you can pronounce it like clams, only with a deranged kind of drawl.
2015-05-02T07:49:36Z Zhivago: Yet Another HTML Mangling System.
2015-05-02T07:49:38Z protist: someone in ##programming suggested HTGL -- hypertext generating language
2015-05-02T07:52:55Z protist: hmmm
2015-05-02T07:55:13Z protist: what does :serial do in a system definition?
2015-05-02T07:55:19Z protist: do I need it?
2015-05-02T07:56:06Z protist: is cl-html taken? ;P
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2015-05-02T07:56:36Z Zhivago: I believe that it does things serially rather than parallely.
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2015-05-02T08:06:41Z protist: was doing update-all-dists on quicklisp a bad idea?
2015-05-02T08:06:51Z protist: how much data am I downloading?
2015-05-02T08:06:53Z protist: lol
2015-05-02T08:08:47Z Fare: protist, if you have a package file, you probably need dependencies on it
2015-05-02T08:08:55Z Fare: :serial t is a trivial way to achieve that effect
2015-05-02T08:09:13Z protist: Fare: ah, my package has no dependencies
2015-05-02T08:09:32Z protist: Fare: well I do need to do the package.lisp before the main file
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2015-05-02T08:13:07Z protist: Fare: I'm still having trouble on the naming issue
2015-05-02T08:13:09Z protist: Fare: :/
2015-05-02T08:13:58Z Fare: dont-use-me-i-m-a-ripoff
2015-05-02T08:14:00Z PuercoPop: Fare: I've been using sly since its announcement. Being able to C-r like in bash the REPL is a huge convenience. So is multiple inspectors. I haven't missed the slime presentations and haven't found sly-buttons particularly buttons. Most bugs have been ironed out by now.
2015-05-02T08:14:36Z protist: maybe just cl-html-gen
2015-05-02T08:14:43Z Fare: buttons?
2015-05-02T08:14:44Z PuercoPop: s/buttons/useful/
2015-05-02T08:15:19Z Fare: ok, next time I install slime, it'll be sly instead
2015-05-02T08:15:37Z protist: uhg....cl-htmlgen exists
2015-05-02T08:16:04Z protist: cl-durian it is
2015-05-02T08:17:36Z Fare: protist, http://fare.livejournal.com/169346.html
2015-05-02T08:18:19Z PuercoPop: its called stickers, it is a new sly feature, basically you can annotate variables so when the code is run the values the variables take are saved and can be replayed, saving you the trouble to add print statments. (http://capitaomorte.github.io/sly/#SLY-Stickers)
2015-05-02T08:18:40Z protist: Fare: hmmmm
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2015-05-02T08:20:18Z ggole: protist: cl-exude-html
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2015-05-02T08:23:04Z protist: ggole: damn that would have been good
2015-05-02T08:23:12Z protist: ggole: just made the durian repo lol
2015-05-02T08:23:23Z ggole: ...
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2015-05-02T08:50:17Z jackdaniel: encodings in regard  of pathnames are horror
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2015-05-02T08:55:39Z Zhivago: current = current->next <- this is the move.
2015-05-02T08:55:42Z Zhivago: oops
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2015-05-02T09:08:46Z protist: Zhivago: Fare: beach: cl-durian is up...will work on improving the readme more later before I submit to quicklisp https://github.com/GordianNaught/cl-durian
2015-05-02T09:11:06Z Grue`: just how many html-generating libs are there?
2015-05-02T09:12:18Z protist: Grue`: lol
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2015-05-02T09:12:41Z Shinmera: Grue`: Too many.
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2015-05-02T09:12:47Z protist: Grue`: when I add some list interpolation examples you might see why mine is different/interesting
2015-05-02T09:13:48Z jackdaniel: hmph, if you don't count raw format, then 5 :D
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2015-05-02T10:48:57Z pjb: protist: compare with com.informatimago.common-lisp.html-generator.html
2015-05-02T10:49:18Z protist: what dot com?
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2015-05-02T10:50:25Z pjb: feel free to contribute patches to https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/master/common-lisp/html-generator/html-generators-in-lisp.txt
2015-05-02T10:50:35Z pjb: protist: quicklisp, gitlab, etc.
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2015-05-02T10:51:09Z pjb: com.informatimago.common-lisp.html-generator.html the downcased name of the package ;-)
2015-05-02T10:51:55Z pjb: I know it's confusing, but I've received a lot of complain from me pasting symbol names and package names in their normal form.
2015-05-02T10:52:12Z pjb: s/from/for/
2015-05-02T10:52:29Z protist: ah
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2015-05-02T10:53:44Z pjb: I mean, I understand that in 1970, when the first terminals with lowercase appeared, there was some snobish attitude against uppercase, but nowadays, with the nice fonts we have, I think we should accept both uppercase and lowercase on an equal footing.
2015-05-02T10:54:03Z protist: that is /similar/ to mine...mine does work differently though...and I indent my output https://github.com/GordianNaught/cl-durian
2015-05-02T10:54:28Z pjb: I would gradly accept a patch to that text file to mention it.
2015-05-02T10:54:34Z pjb: s/gra/gla/
2015-05-02T10:54:53Z protist: to mention my package?
2015-05-02T10:54:56Z pjb: I'm not japanese, just the left hand's hurting :-)
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2015-05-02T10:54:57Z pjb: Yes.
2015-05-02T10:56:26Z protist: I'll have to spend some time to think about a way to work a mention of it in :)
2015-05-02T10:56:38Z protist: I bookmarked it and will get back to you some time soon :)
2015-05-02T10:56:41Z pjb: ok
2015-05-02T10:56:57Z protist: ah I see you have a list of examples from each one at the bottom
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2015-05-02T10:59:12Z protist: pjb: it seems like all the examples are doing different things
2015-05-02T10:59:23Z protist: pjb: what should I be aiming for, exactly?
2015-05-02T10:59:36Z pjb: I just copy-pasted examples from the respective docs, IIRC.
2015-05-02T10:59:51Z pjb: Show a typical usage.
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2015-05-02T11:11:40Z protist: pjb: http://pastebin.com/edeVwbY0
2015-05-02T11:12:23Z jackdaniel: cl who has afaik optional flag for indentation
2015-05-02T11:12:30Z jackdaniel: cl-who°
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2015-05-02T11:13:24Z protist: pjb: and this is the github, might should have a link https://github.com/GordianNaught/cl-durian
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2015-05-02T11:24:16Z pjb: ok.
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2015-05-02T11:32:49Z pjb: protist: pushed.  Thanks.
2015-05-02T11:32:59Z protist: pjb: thank you :)
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2015-05-02T11:40:17Z jackdaniel: yeee, pathnames reworked :-) now cleanup ;_;
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2015-05-02T12:17:44Z borodust: hi, what is preferred way to bundle cl project for deployment?
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2015-05-02T12:18:36Z jackdaniel: yeah, quicklisp bundle :p
2015-05-02T12:19:07Z jackdaniel: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2015/04/new-feature-quicklisp-library-bundles.html
2015-05-02T12:19:15Z jackdaniel: brand new feature
2015-05-02T12:19:51Z borodust: yeah, i pretty much liked it, but it is intended for systems that are part of the ql
2015-05-02T12:20:13Z jackdaniel: doesn't it work with projects in $QL/local-projects ?
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2015-05-02T12:20:34Z jackdaniel: it's even in a post ;)
2015-05-02T12:20:53Z borodust: it works, i guess, but should i put all my local projects there?
2015-05-02T12:21:11Z borodust: that's pretty inconvenient
2015-05-02T12:21:41Z jackdaniel: ln -s /absolute/pathname/my-inconveniently-placed-project $QL/local-projects
2015-05-02T12:21:49Z borodust: hm-m
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2015-05-02T12:22:39Z antoszka: yay, I totally forgot about the new bundle feature
2015-05-02T12:22:43Z antoszka: it's way cool
2015-05-02T12:22:52Z borodust: will it bundle all projects that are there, or only ones i selected?
2015-05-02T12:23:18Z jackdaniel: ,tias (try it and see ®)
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2015-05-02T12:30:55Z borodust: nah, checked the thing
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2015-05-02T12:31:52Z borodust: first of all, ql-bundle thing isn't intended for local projects as per doc: "Bundling works only for systems available through Quicklisp"
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2015-05-02T12:32:31Z pjb: local projects are available thru quicklisp
2015-05-02T12:32:51Z borodust: i guess, more like thru asdf
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2015-05-02T12:33:09Z borodust: the second one is, all things in the local-projects included into the bundle: "Any file in the local-projects directory tree matching "*.asd" is added as a loadable system"
2015-05-02T12:33:33Z borodust: https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/bundles.html
2015-05-02T12:34:46Z borodust: what i want to do is to bundle all the things into one package (my local stuff and ql libs), push to server, compile/load bundle into sbcl there
2015-05-02T12:35:05Z jackdaniel: ,tias
2015-05-02T12:35:53Z borodust: asdf:monolithic-concatenate-source-op helps, but i cannot reliably load/compile that thing back
2015-05-02T12:36:22Z borodust: coz im doing smth wrong, but don't know what exactly
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2015-05-02T12:37:22Z failproofshark: hello all
2015-05-02T12:37:52Z failproofshark: borodust: theres a way to configure quicklisp/asd to find you're local projects if its not located in a nonstandard directory
2015-05-02T12:38:08Z borodust: so, basically, #'asdf:load-system works, but 'asdf:monolithic-concatenate-source-op and then 'asdf:monolithic-load-concatenated-source-op don't
2015-05-02T12:38:15Z failproofshark: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Configuring-ASDF-to-find-your-systems
2015-05-02T12:38:49Z borodust: that's not exactly what i asked :)
2015-05-02T12:38:53Z failproofshark: oh sorry
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2015-05-02T12:39:09Z borodust: i mean, i can load my system just fine locally
2015-05-02T12:39:35Z borodust: but i need it to bundle it with all deps into one package
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2015-05-02T12:39:52Z borodust: preferably, source package
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2015-05-02T12:40:11Z borodust: coz ofc i can dump lisp image, but that's too hardcore
2015-05-02T12:41:01Z borodust: and this blob is 81mb vs 3.6mb of uncompressed sources
2015-05-02T12:42:02Z jackdaniel still doesn't see, why ql bundles wouldn't work with your stuff put in local-projects
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2015-05-02T12:45:09Z borodust: first thing, i need to put every local project there, and every local project will be included in all bundles i made - bad thing
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2015-05-02T12:45:38Z borodust: second one, u just can't use #'ql:bundle-systems with local projects
2015-05-02T12:45:54Z borodust: i guess
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2015-05-02T12:46:13Z jackdaniel: first thing - you may symlink whole local-projects direcotry. second thing stays in contradiction with documentation
2015-05-02T12:46:54Z borodust: what i mean by first thingy, i don't need all my local projects in the bundle
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2015-05-02T12:47:08Z borodust: different bundles will have different local projects
2015-05-02T12:47:21Z jackdaniel: yes, but ql works on dependencies
2015-05-02T12:47:30Z jackdaniel: so bundle won't suck-in your unrelated projects
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2015-05-02T12:47:43Z jackdaniel: like it doesn't pull alexandria, when you quickload uffi
2015-05-02T12:47:44Z borodust: hmm, as per doc, it will
2015-05-02T12:48:03Z borodust: "Any file in the local-projects directory tree matching "*.asd" is added as a loadable system"
2015-05-02T12:48:05Z jackdaniel: we have obviously different understanding, thats why I suggested: ,tias
2015-05-02T12:48:16Z jackdaniel: and it's not added to bundle
2015-05-02T12:48:20Z borodust: hmm
2015-05-02T12:48:23Z jackdaniel: it is just "available" for quicklisp
2015-05-02T12:49:06Z borodust: ok, lets try with example
2015-05-02T12:49:15Z borodust: btw, what the ,tias is?)
2015-05-02T12:49:24Z jackdaniel: try it and see ©
2015-05-02T12:49:26Z borodust: ah
2015-05-02T12:49:38Z borodust: yeah, did it, lemme put it into words
2015-05-02T12:50:01Z jackdaniel: bb in 30minutes
2015-05-02T12:50:06Z borodust: k
2015-05-02T12:50:21Z borodust: cya
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2015-05-02T12:51:23Z borodust: i have local project named :clut (plz, don't ask why)
2015-05-02T12:51:29Z borodust: i can load it with asdf just fine
2015-05-02T12:51:42Z borodust: so everything for that is configured
2015-05-02T12:52:04Z borodust: and i can load it with ql:quickload
2015-05-02T12:52:07Z borodust: but
2015-05-02T12:53:14Z borodust: i created symlink to project in local-projects
2015-05-02T12:53:41Z borodust: unfortunately, (ql:bundle-systems '(:clut) :to "/tmp/clut") raises QL-BUNDLE:SYSTEM-NOT-FOUND
2015-05-02T12:54:11Z pjb: report a bug to quicklisp.
2015-05-02T12:54:39Z borodust: as per my understanding, that's conforming to docs, which are say "Bundling works only for systems available through Quicklisp"
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2015-05-02T12:54:54Z pjb: but it's still a bad feature.
2015-05-02T12:55:05Z pjb: call it a documented bug.
2015-05-02T12:56:23Z borodust: well, that's discussible, but i still need source bundle for the project)
2015-05-02T12:56:45Z borodust: how that was done before?
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2015-05-02T12:57:04Z dim: sounds like a wishlist item, that can be opened as an issue on github, right?
2015-05-02T12:57:07Z pjb: it wasn't this is a new feature
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2015-05-02T12:59:31Z nyef: Making your own bundles "by hand", if it were done at all.
2015-05-02T13:00:32Z borodust: yeah, i understand that, but cl has a long history, and i scared to think all that time bundling was done "by hand"
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2015-05-02T13:02:09Z borodust: im just not familiar with how that's done in the cl world
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2015-05-02T13:02:36Z nyef: How's it done in the C world? Or the Fortran world?
2015-05-02T13:02:49Z borodust: i can say, how this done in the java world
2015-05-02T13:03:27Z borodust: mvn clean deploy
2015-05-02T13:03:52Z nyef: And even THAT was an after-the-fact thing. A well after-the-fact thing.
2015-05-02T13:04:25Z borodust: but im not here to start holywar, i wanna know if there's known solution in the lisp world
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2015-05-02T13:06:36Z borodust: what i understand so far, there isnt
2015-05-02T13:07:00Z borodust: ql bundles seems very promising, but not yet exactly what i need
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2015-05-02T13:08:14Z nyef: I don't know that there isn't a known solution, but I don't know of one at this point.
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2015-05-02T13:11:05Z dim: borodust: what I've been using and seen using is building an image with all you need in there, so that instead of starting SBCL you start your own application
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2015-05-02T13:11:25Z dim: but I'm not sure what problem you need a solution for
2015-05-02T13:12:04Z dim: there's also an ASDF facility to bundle things into a single CL file, IIRC
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2015-05-02T13:12:31Z borodust: sbcl's save-lisp-and-die helps, but i don't like the final size of the blob, so i've thought i can deploy sources, which will be loaded into target lisp
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2015-05-02T13:13:32Z borodust: dim, yeah, i've used it (asdf:monolithic-concatenate-source-op)
2015-05-02T13:13:50Z dim: well compare the size of the new lisp with that of bare sbcl
2015-05-02T13:13:50Z borodust: but, i have problems loading that source back
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2015-05-02T13:13:57Z dim: it doesn't inflate by much IIRC
2015-05-02T13:14:24Z dim: so what's the difference in between shipping SBCL + source code and pre-compiled binary?
2015-05-02T13:14:27Z borodust: 81mb for #'save-lisp-and-die and 3.6mb for uncompressed sources
2015-05-02T13:14:56Z dim: 21M pgloader
2015-05-02T13:15:06Z dim: you're not compressing the image are you?
2015-05-02T13:15:30Z borodust: nope, just #'save-lisp...
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2015-05-02T13:16:07Z borodust: main problems are size and dependency on the version of the lisp env (sbcl)
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2015-05-02T13:16:08Z nyef: Isn't there a compressed core option for SLAD?
2015-05-02T13:16:19Z dim: I'm using buildapp with --compress-core
2015-05-02T13:16:43Z borodust: hmm
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2015-05-02T13:17:18Z dim: the amd64 sbcl package weigths 68,772.0 kB on debian
2015-05-02T13:17:19Z nyef: ... Yeah, :COMPRESSION with an integer from -1 to 9.
2015-05-02T13:17:21Z dim: https://packages.debian.org/sid/sbcl
2015-05-02T13:17:36Z dim: so a 21MB pgloader binary image is pretty good I would venture
2015-05-02T13:17:39Z borodust: yeah, i see, lemme check how much that helps
2015-05-02T13:18:00Z dim: 26,240.0 kBfor https://packages.debian.org/sid/pgloader
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2015-05-02T13:18:49Z dim: of course in the pgloader case my intended target is not typically lisp savvy, mostly they are scared about pgloader being written in CL; so the optimisation is real for them as they would never consider installing sbcl in the first place
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2015-05-02T13:19:48Z dim: borodust: using buildapp the pgloader binary doesn't depend on sbcl anymore, IIUC there's a copy of SBCL right in there (heck, I even compile lisp sources at runtime, so yeah, SBCL is all included)
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2015-05-02T13:23:54Z borodust: oh, i see
2015-05-02T13:24:14Z borodust: that kind of works: 17mb for the final blob
2015-05-02T13:24:53Z borodust: well, that's durable
2015-05-02T13:25:20Z borodust: *doable
2015-05-02T13:25:50Z borodust: or both
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2015-05-02T13:26:02Z dim: and I think save-lisp-and-die has been there in lisps for a very long time already, like back in the 60s or 70s?
2015-05-02T13:26:41Z dim: nowadays they are trying to have that at the OS level and it's called docker ;-)
2015-05-02T13:27:44Z borodust: yup, almost all cloud services now have this feature of dumping container image
2015-05-02T13:28:05Z borodust: that's still seems like workaround
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2015-05-02T13:29:02Z borodust: tnx for the hint with compression thingy
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2015-05-02T13:30:43Z dim: well in lisp at least you have all the flexibility and tooling at dev time, where you can change about anything in the running environement, live (code, class definitions, structures, parameters, variables, constants, anything can be live edited); so save-lisp-and-die allows for a very efficient and dynamic style of live programming, AFAIUI
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2015-05-02T13:31:16Z dim: (I'm not programming like that, I have files containing my definitions and I load them from there, not changing the state of the lisp image at run-time all from the REPL)
2015-05-02T13:31:57Z dim: modern linux containers are still eons away in terms of developpers oriented features the way I see it when compared to our classic envs
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2015-05-02T13:37:33Z borodust: tnx much for the help, guyz
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2015-05-02T13:42:37Z schjetne: While we're on the subject, what function would I call to start a REPL when executing an image? A cursory look into the SBCL manual and the hyperspec didn't come up with anything obvious.
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2015-05-02T13:43:26Z dim: what I've been doing is start a swank thread listening on some port, so that I can attach SLIME to it
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2015-05-02T13:45:02Z dim: (swank:create-server :port swank-port :style :spawn :dont-close t)
2015-05-02T13:45:30Z dim: in some cases,
2015-05-02T13:45:39Z dim: (let ((swank::*loopback-interface* "0.0.0.0")) (swank:create-server :port 4205 :style :spawn :dont-close t))
2015-05-02T13:45:49Z jackdaniel: swank approach is also portable
2015-05-02T13:45:53Z dim: when running from within a VM that's quite useful
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2015-05-02T13:56:33Z schjetne: dim: I'll probably do just that, when I daemonize it won't have a terminal anyway
2015-05-02T13:57:18Z dim: have a look at pgcharts for the demonizing parts maybe, if you want, it's a quite simple embedded webapp that I did some time ago
2015-05-02T13:57:25Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgcharts
2015-05-02T13:57:46Z schjetne: I've been using supervisord for my server processes, and it has a neat attach feature, but attaching directly from Emacs is better
2015-05-02T13:57:48Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgcharts/blob/master/src/pgcharts.lisp#L98
2015-05-02T13:57:55Z schjetne: I'll take a look
2015-05-02T13:58:04Z dim: that's where the start command is implemented, running in the background and all, using the daemon lib for that
2015-05-02T13:59:01Z schjetne: Looks neat, I'm using Postgres myself, so that might come in handy
2015-05-02T13:59:16Z dim: also I've been using my own command line argument processing code so that I have "commands" rather than the classic getopts behavior
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2015-05-02T14:01:37Z dim: lots of people here are using PostgreSQL when it comes to database, I would venture than CL users have good taste ;-)
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2015-05-02T14:10:22Z dim: just uploaded 17 quicklisp distribution as debian packages
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2015-05-02T14:57:35Z dim: and blogged about how I do that, in the hope to see fellow debian/CL users and packagers join the effort
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2015-05-02T15:56:44Z k-stz: I hope this is a no-brainer but do all libraries provided by quicklisp have a permissive license?
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2015-05-02T15:57:00Z k-stz: And If you have a project that depends on many such licenses does it suffice to mention them in an .asd file?
2015-05-02T15:57:48Z Bike: there are, like, GPL-licensed libraries in quicklisp if that's what you mean
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2015-05-02T16:00:09Z k-stz: Bike: I'm just worried that I need to check every libary I use and include their respective licenses somewhere in my projects root directory
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2015-05-02T16:00:47Z Shinmera: You won't have to include their libraries, but you might have to adapt your own license if you use, say, a GPL library.
2015-05-02T16:00:47Z Bike: such is intellectual property, i guess?
2015-05-02T16:01:06Z Shinmera: *you won't have to include their licenses
2015-05-02T16:01:14Z Shinmera: Since their license should be in their respective root.
2015-05-02T16:01:28Z k-stz: Shinmera: ooooh you are right
2015-05-02T16:01:43Z Shinmera: So, you will have to check if they aren't viral.
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2015-05-02T16:09:27Z dim: k-stz: some are GPL, some are AGPL, most are MIT or Artistic or LGPL
2015-05-02T16:10:05Z dim: beware of incompatibilities, in pgloader I know I had to skip some otherwise interesting libs so that I can claim "The PostgreSQL License", a kind of BSD 2 clauses
2015-05-02T16:11:55Z Shinmera: dim: Which licenses did you have to skip, out of curiosity?
2015-05-02T16:12:09Z dim: AGPL mainly (hi pjb)
2015-05-02T16:12:14Z jackdaniel: (ql:system-apropos :any-but '(:gpl :agpl)) would ocme in handy
2015-05-02T16:12:20Z Shinmera: Right, of course
2015-05-02T16:12:22Z jackdaniel: s/ocme/come/
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2015-05-02T16:14:26Z Bike: xach mandates license data, so that probably wouldn't be too hard
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2015-05-02T16:15:20Z jackdaniel: I think he mentioned that this is a features he want's to add, but don't know anything about priorities
2015-05-02T16:17:13Z dim: the hardest part of ql-to-deb was figuring out the debian/copyright files, really
2015-05-02T16:17:46Z dim: and it's nothing to do with QL per-se, it's more than CL authors are quite lazy about their licensing, find the real text often enough is a problem
2015-05-02T16:18:28Z dim: see https://github.com/dimitri/ql-to-deb/blob/master/packages/chunga/debian/copyright for an exemple of a nicely provided license
2015-05-02T16:19:16Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/ql-to-deb/blob/master/packages/ironclad/debian/copyright --- this one was harder to find out
2015-05-02T16:19:33Z jackdaniel: dim: why packages, if CL libraries work besides package managers? (thanks to ql)
2015-05-02T16:19:48Z jackdaniel: despite of° is maybe a better phrase
2015-05-02T16:20:19Z dim: jackdaniel: read the last 2 § of http://tapoueh.org/blog/2015/05/02-ql-to-deb
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2015-05-02T16:21:28Z jackdaniel: dim: thanks, understood :-)
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2015-05-02T16:28:31Z k-stz: just read a bit into sbcl's license and copying file. Quite lengthy
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2015-05-02T16:59:57Z bizarrefish: Hia ll
2015-05-02T17:00:00Z bizarrefish: *hi all
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2015-05-02T17:15:59Z protist: lparallel looks impressive :)
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2015-05-02T17:36:09Z pjb: schjetne: you can use com.informatimago.common-lisp.interactive.interactive:repl
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2015-05-02T17:40:24Z pjb: k-stz: you can use com.informatimago.tools.manifest:print-manifest
2015-05-02T17:40:44Z pjb: k-stz: in your asf you should only put the license of your system, not of your dependencies.
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2015-05-02T17:53:33Z k-stz: pjb: thanks, seems like most libraries show "UNKNOWN" as their license. The instances I checked contained licenses written by the authors themselves. For example cl-opengl
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2015-05-02T19:04:13Z francogrex: https://github.com/francogrex/jnil
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2015-05-02T20:13:50Z not_a_tiger: Does Common Lisp have a function which returns a list of integers in a fashion similar to `seq n1 n2`?
2015-05-02T20:14:25Z not_a_tiger: Or as a better example, equivalent to Emacs Lisp (number-sequence n1 n2)
2015-05-02T20:14:26Z Bike: (loop for i from n1 below n2 collecting i)
2015-05-02T20:15:10Z not_a_tiger: macro-licious
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2015-05-02T20:17:08Z not_a_tiger: What comment style should I use for small functions I share on the web?
2015-05-02T20:17:22Z Bike: comment style...?
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2015-05-02T20:18:22Z not_a_tiger: I've seen lots of semicolons in varying quantities and don't know.
2015-05-02T20:18:51Z Bike: let's see, there's a page somewhere
2015-05-02T20:18:52Z Bike: clhs ;
2015-05-02T20:18:52Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dd.htm
2015-05-02T20:19:01Z Bike: yaeh, second link in that.
2015-05-02T20:20:25Z not_a_tiger: That looks like exactly what I needed. Thank you very much, Bike.  :)
2015-05-02T20:20:48Z not_a_tiger: If I can't get my function working on my own, would it be okay to ask for help here?
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2015-05-02T20:22:24Z Bike: sure
2015-05-02T20:22:34Z Bike: use paste.lisp.org for anything more than a line long
2015-05-02T20:22:48Z not_a_tiger: Awesome, I'll bookmark that right now.
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2015-05-02T20:25:39Z paul0: what is the easiest way to parse xml with CL?
2015-05-02T20:26:11Z paul0: from time to time I decide to start a CL project, and I always forget how to use cxml
2015-05-02T20:26:37Z Shinmera: paul0: https://shinmera.github.io/plump
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2015-05-02T20:37:54Z remi`bd: nice
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2015-05-02T20:42:21Z paul0: Shinmera, plump and clss were what I was looking for! thanks!
2015-05-02T20:42:40Z Shinmera: paul0: Also have a look at lquery.
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2015-05-02T21:43:32Z not_a_tiger: I don't have Common Lisp installed on my machine. Is there any place I can run my code to test it?
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2015-05-02T21:44:03Z pjb: http://hubble.informatimago.com:8116/
2015-05-02T21:44:42Z pjb: not_a_tiger: but really, why wouldn't you install it locally?  It's 2015!
2015-05-02T21:46:32Z not_a_tiger: I first encounterd Lisp in 1984. It scared me so bad I'm just now returning to confront my fear.
2015-05-02T21:46:53Z not_a_tiger: I literally dropped out of college because I was so afraid.
2015-05-02T21:47:18Z Bike: i reserve fear for large animals and taxes, generally
2015-05-02T21:47:38Z not_a_tiger: Okay. Slight exaggeration, but it makes a nice dramatic story.
2015-05-02T21:47:49Z pjb: I fear more microscopic animals and mushrooms, but that's the general feeling yes.
2015-05-02T21:48:19Z not_a_tiger: This thing ought to work in eww
2015-05-02T21:48:41Z not_a_tiger: nope  :(
2015-05-02T21:48:46Z not_a_tiger: Firefox
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2015-05-02T21:51:33Z not_a_tiger: Why port 8116?
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2015-05-02T21:52:36Z cluck: Bike: don't fear the irs, like michael bolton says you can't live without an anus!
2015-05-02T21:53:09Z pjb: why not?
2015-05-02T21:53:45Z cluck: (that's was a reference to a "last week tonight" sketch.. lest someone take the joke badly)
2015-05-02T21:54:46Z cluck: pjb: because you can't poop (and then everything gets filled with it)
2015-05-02T21:55:05Z pjb: I was answering to not_a_tiger.
2015-05-02T21:55:38Z cluck: pjb: =)
2015-05-02T21:55:54Z not_a_tiger: Just curios if it had special meaning.
2015-05-02T21:56:00Z not_a_tiger: *curious
2015-05-02T21:59:34Z not_a_tiger: I broke it by using comments
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2015-05-02T22:00:09Z not_a_tiger: Oh
2015-05-02T22:00:20Z not_a_tiger: Looks like it only accepts one form per line?
2015-05-02T22:00:40Z pjb: How did you do it?
2015-05-02T22:01:10Z pjb: That's a limitation of ccl.
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2015-05-02T22:01:47Z not_a_tiger: Yeah, I guess that might be reasonable.
2015-05-02T22:01:49Z pjb: So you may type: (read) 3 RET
2015-05-02T22:02:06Z not_a_tiger: I just copy pasted my code from Emacs scratch buffer into the REPL.
2015-05-02T22:02:33Z not_a_tiger: The prompt disappeared and didn't return until I pressed Enter a few times.
2015-05-02T22:02:49Z not_a_tiger: Oh, and my defun didn't get evaled
2015-05-02T22:02:49Z pjb: seems to work for me.
2015-05-02T22:03:12Z not_a_tiger: Well, sorry I suck at explaining and rule at breaking stuff.
2015-05-02T22:03:21Z pjb: You used the paste from the popup menu in shellinabox?
2015-05-02T22:03:37Z not_a_tiger: Firefox Edit -> Paste
2015-05-02T22:03:53Z pjb: that won't work. Use right-button paste.
2015-05-02T22:04:29Z not_a_tiger: You intercepted my right mouse click with Javascript. That is so naughty  :P
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2015-05-02T22:04:42Z pjb: this is shellinabox.
2015-05-02T22:05:33Z not_a_tiger: I kind of like it. What else can it do?
2015-05-02T22:06:15Z pjb: everything that ccl can do.  It's in a chroot.  For now you can't use quicklisp, but it will be possible.
2015-05-02T22:06:46Z pjb: cl-charm (=ncurses) works.
2015-05-02T22:07:05Z not_a_tiger: sweet  :)
2015-05-02T22:07:27Z not_a_tiger: I wonder if SDF has Lisp
2015-05-02T22:07:36Z pjb: iirc, they have clisp
2015-05-02T22:09:26Z not_a_tiger: The FAQ mentions openlisp, whatever that is  :-/
2015-05-02T22:09:32Z not_a_tiger: Anyway, back to work
2015-05-02T22:11:54Z Petit_Dejeuner: open lisp (
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2015-05-02T22:22:16Z not_a_tiger: Looks like I'm done. Thanks for the help  :)
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2015-05-03T00:10:28Z dim: pjb: (fib 1000000) is displaying in my browser
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2015-05-03T00:10:48Z dim: took 32s to compute and I think more to display ;-)
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2015-05-03T00:44:59Z clop2: it seems that CCL/SBCL provide weak hash tables---do any Lisps provide weak arrays?
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2015-05-03T01:18:41Z p_l: clop2: if you have weak pointers, then you have them (so SBCL and CCL have them etc.)
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2015-05-03T03:45:02Z protist: Hello fellow lispers :)
2015-05-03T03:45:16Z Guest6796: hi
2015-05-03T03:46:40Z scoofy: hi.
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2015-05-03T03:55:38Z protist: Guest6796: scoofy: hello :)
2015-05-03T03:55:40Z protist is now known as protist_
2015-05-03T03:56:22Z Brozo: hi
2015-05-03T03:56:26Z protist_: where could I get a full list of quicklisp libraries?
2015-05-03T03:56:29Z protist_: Brozo: hello :)
2015-05-03T03:56:39Z protist_: I want to look at a full list, with descriptions
2015-05-03T03:56:43Z protist_: not just the top 100
2015-05-03T03:57:09Z protist_: I might start obsessively making Lisp libraries lol
2015-05-03T03:58:05Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-05-03T03:58:19Z protist_: beach: good morning! (afternoon here)
2015-05-03T03:58:23Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-05-03T03:58:32Z nyef: Almost morning here by my clock.
2015-05-03T03:58:54Z protist_: brb gotta tip the NSA
2015-05-03T04:00:47Z nyef: protist_: A full list of quicklisp libraries? Poke around inside your installed dist.
2015-05-03T04:01:51Z Bike: it's also on github as quicklisp-projects, though no descriptions right on the page
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2015-05-03T04:02:30Z protist_: I am in a machine learning course and thinking I might start making some machine learning libraries later :)
2015-05-03T04:03:13Z protist_: just transition class projects into systems
2015-05-03T04:03:29Z protist_: nyef: what command should I use to do that?
2015-05-03T04:03:45Z protist_: nyef: I guess I could look it up :p
2015-05-03T04:03:48Z nyef: I'd use ls and less.
2015-05-03T04:05:06Z protist_: nyef: (ql:system-list)
2015-05-03T04:05:17Z nyef: Or you could do that.
2015-05-03T04:05:51Z nyef: I happen to be extremely comfortable with looking at random files on my disk and trying to make sense of them.
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2015-05-03T04:07:39Z protist_: nyef: :)
2015-05-03T04:08:26Z nyef gets back to trying to make sense of the Linux ioc4 driver source.
2015-05-03T04:09:20Z protist_: nyef: I wanna get a description of each
2015-05-03T04:09:38Z protist_: nyef: can't find a good way to use ql:system-apropos
2015-05-03T04:09:47Z nyef: That I can't help you with... And Xach is probably asleep by now.
2015-05-03T04:10:01Z Bike: i don't think you can get a description without downloading the system, but there should be a machine-extractable one in the asd.
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2015-05-03T04:12:18Z protist_: Bike: how can I get a list of all slots of a class?
2015-05-03T04:12:38Z beach: mop class-slots
2015-05-03T04:12:39Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-slots.html
2015-05-03T04:12:53Z protist_: beach: thank you :)
2015-05-03T04:12:58Z Bike: asdf probably has an accessor
2015-05-03T04:13:01Z Bike: system-description or something
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2015-05-03T04:17:15Z protist_: Bike: "NO-APPLICABLE-METHOD"
2015-05-03T04:17:25Z Bike: that was just a guess
2015-05-03T04:17:33Z protist_: Bike: yeah...just thinking aloud
2015-05-03T04:17:36Z Bike: read docs or something to find the actual protocols
2015-05-03T04:18:09Z protist_: Bike: the system-list systems only have 6 slots
2015-05-03T04:18:16Z protist_: Bike: none seem to be useful
2015-05-03T04:19:11Z Bike: one, those aren't asdf systems. two, i did not mean to solve the problem for you, i was only trying to suggest a possible route for you to find a solution on your own.
2015-05-03T04:19:41Z protist_: gotcha...I'm just milking you for whatever I can get :P
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2015-05-03T04:43:41Z drmeister: Hi beach
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2015-05-03T04:45:58Z drmeister: I got my bootstrapping compiler running with tagged pointers.
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2015-05-03T05:04:42Z protist_: drmeister: CLASP?
2015-05-03T05:04:53Z drmeister: Yes
2015-05-03T05:04:57Z protist_: drmeister: nice :)
2015-05-03T05:05:07Z beach: drmeister: Congratulations!
2015-05-03T05:05:08Z protist_: drmeister: how does CLASP performance compare to SBCL?
2015-05-03T05:05:17Z drmeister: I'm switching to tagged pointers and immediate fixnums/characters/single-floats
2015-05-03T05:05:25Z protist_: drmeister: I know correctness comes before performance...just curious
2015-05-03T05:06:18Z drmeister: protist_: Not well - yet.
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2015-05-03T05:07:09Z protist_: drmeister: still awesome...how many people outside your research group have started using CLASP?
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2015-05-03T05:10:56Z drmeister: I don't know if anyone is using it.  There are several people helping me with it.   The current goal is to make it fast.
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2015-05-03T05:18:28Z protist_: drmeister: ah cool
2015-05-03T05:18:40Z protist_: drmeister: when it is faster I imagine a lot of people will be like "why not"
2015-05-03T05:19:20Z protist_: drmeister: but I guess anything CLASP does to leverage C++ libs will not be standards conforming...or idk
2015-05-03T05:20:07Z protist_: drmeister: I mean like if you are using CLASP to interact with big C++ things without using a compatible Common Lisp CFFI interface, then it will only be useful to CLASP
2015-05-03T05:20:34Z protist_: drmeister: or would it be easy for them to use regular CFFI to do the same things, just not as fast?
2015-05-03T05:20:50Z protist_: drmeister: or do you use the same code to interface, but just work faster?
2015-05-03T05:20:55Z protist_: drmeister: that would be ideal
2015-05-03T05:22:10Z protist_: sorry to wall-of-text...lol
2015-05-03T05:22:26Z protist_: I want lisp to take over the world
2015-05-03T05:24:47Z beach: I don't think that is going to happen.
2015-05-03T05:25:15Z protist_: beach: or at least become a rediculously profitable niche, moreso than now
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2015-05-03T07:57:57Z jackdaniel: good world-conquer plan isn't bad :p
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2015-05-03T08:00:18Z kami: Good morning.
2015-05-03T08:00:44Z jackdaniel: hello kami
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2015-05-03T10:36:53Z k-stz: In c++ we can refer to array index through enums, while still iterating through it with i=0, i++ arr[i]. In cl i'd use an a-list to get this (list :nice 'relation). But now I can't iterate through the a-list SETFably. Perhaps there is a more suitable datastructure?
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2015-05-03T10:39:38Z oleo: ?
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2015-05-03T10:49:16Z k-stz: c++: prog[WALK], prog[TALK] were WALK/TALK eval to numbers, so the index to the array is more meaningful. If I translate this to an a-list though, I can't iterate through it straight-forwardly  (defparameter *prog* (list :walk walk-prog :talk talk-prog))
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2015-05-03T10:49:51Z k-stz: I'd have to to do some (case (:walk 0) (:talk 1)) or whatnot, so I thought there might just be an easier way
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2015-05-03T10:53:39Z beach: k-stz: Why don't you just define WALK and TALK as constants?
2015-05-03T10:53:42Z SAL9000: k-stz: you want to make a setf-able alist? sounds like you need a hashtable.
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2015-05-03T10:55:13Z k-stz: beach: was thinking of that but then.. SAL9000 here got a very good idea
2015-05-03T10:55:18Z k-stz: :)
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2015-05-03T10:55:57Z beach: Sure, it depends on what it is that you want to do.
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2015-05-03T10:58:36Z k-stz: No, in fact the constant approach is better, this way I can directly translate the c++ code
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2015-05-03T10:59:28Z k-stz: I want to iterate over an array while reading from another with the same index PLUS eventually access the values of the array with a MEANING_FULL_ENUM
2015-05-03T11:00:01Z SAL9000: array = vector? list?
2015-05-03T11:00:44Z k-stz: so the array will be a vector in cl, so that (aref *vector* +walking-program+) will work
2015-05-03T11:01:11Z k-stz: and (loop for i below (length *vector) ..) too
2015-05-03T11:03:54Z k-stz: the c++ code intializes its enums like so: enums SomeEnums { WALK = 0, TALK, SLEEP} where TALK gets implicitly the value 1 and so on. So I'll just (defconstant +walk+ 0) ...
2015-05-03T11:06:21Z k-stz: hmm, I could write a enum->defconstants macro after the c++ syntax
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2015-05-03T11:12:07Z jackdaniel: if i only got paid for each line removed :_)
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2015-05-03T11:17:15Z ehu: jackdaniel: actually, that would be the best criterion for programmer bonusses.
2015-05-03T11:17:37Z jackdaniel: ehu: I agree, that's why I mentioned that
2015-05-03T11:17:55Z jackdaniel: yet, I'm making my own company, so nobody pays me unfortunately
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2015-05-03T11:18:02Z ehu: jackdaniel: :-)
2015-05-03T11:18:07Z ehu: maybe that will come.
2015-05-03T11:18:31Z jackdaniel: :)
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2015-05-03T11:23:40Z akersof: jackdaniel, using lisp in your compagny? like graham ? :)
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2015-05-03T11:30:20Z jackdaniel: yeah, that's the idea
2015-05-03T11:31:58Z dim: funnily enough I also run my own company and use lisp, but mostly my customers don't care at all what programming language I am using, I deliver working solutions that's it
2015-05-03T11:32:17Z dim: (fsvo working, fsvo solution, of course)
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2015-05-03T11:38:17Z ehu: jackdaniel: found yet another bug in the mirroring script. it should start working for real now.
2015-05-03T11:40:57Z jackdaniel: ehu: that's a good news, I was going to check tomorrow, if todays commits pass
2015-05-03T11:41:54Z ehu: ok. good. I checked and saw that your push from 6 days ago (with commits from 9 days ago) hadn't synced.
2015-05-03T11:42:02Z ehu: it's still worth a check tomorrow.
2015-05-03T11:42:28Z jackdaniel: hmm, does script cover situations, when history has changed?
2015-05-03T11:42:54Z ehu: it runs a full fetch. I think it does.
2015-05-03T11:43:01Z jackdaniel: ok
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2015-05-03T13:11:10Z ebrasca: eshell
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2015-05-03T13:25:16Z beach is finally making some progress on bootstrapping SICL.
2015-05-03T13:25:41Z nyef: Congratulations, beach.
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2015-05-03T13:25:50Z beach: Thanks.
2015-05-03T13:26:23Z beach: I spent so much time thinking about type inference that I forgot the status on bootstrapping.
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2015-05-03T13:37:18Z dim: damn, I'm still confused with macro arguments evaluation rules
2015-05-03T13:38:21Z dim: I've made a server-side include facility in a web based project, so I can have <lisp>(code here)</lisp> inside HTML files
2015-05-03T13:38:43Z dim: the code outputs forms suitable to with-html-output-to-string from cl-who
2015-05-03T13:38:50Z dim: and that one is a macro
2015-05-03T13:39:41Z dim: it seems then quite complex for my little mind to find the right way to reason about what should happen in what stage, as I read then eval code from string at runtime but still need to give the result to a macro that outputs html
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2015-05-03T13:47:19Z drmeister: Hello
2015-05-03T13:48:22Z theos: hey
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2015-05-03T13:48:53Z drmeister: beach: How is bootstrapping going?  I'm really curious about how you do that.
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2015-05-03T13:54:49Z beach: drmeister: It is hard to explain, actually.
2015-05-03T13:55:17Z beach: Hold on, I think I have a paper on it...
2015-05-03T13:55:22Z drmeister: That's perfectly consistent with my expectations.
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2015-05-03T13:57:54Z beach: There is a chapter in the SICL specification but it is a bit out of date.
2015-05-03T13:58:05Z beach: I start by bootstrapping CLOS.
2015-05-03T13:58:21Z beach: I create host classes for the MOP metaclasses.
2015-05-03T14:00:09Z drmeister: This is within a running Common Lisp environment and you bootstrap SICL CLOS?
2015-05-03T14:00:18Z beach: Right.
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2015-05-03T14:02:05Z testerbit: I'm trying to run this in clisp but get an error. Why? http://pastebin.com/n5xz8c2d
2015-05-03T14:02:07Z beach: Then I instantiate STANDARD-CLASS and some others in order to create a second MOP hierarchy consisting of what I call ersatz classes.  Those are not host classes, but just ordinary host instances.
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2015-05-03T14:02:45Z testerbit: I'm working off a text written in the 90's, so is it likely the syntax standard has changed?
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2015-05-03T14:03:17Z pjb: testerbit: try to use #\' instead of #\’
2015-05-03T14:03:37Z pjb: What's likely is that you're copypasting from a typographied document, instead of from source files.
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2015-05-03T14:04:20Z beach: drmeister: I give up trying to explain it here.  You need to read chapter 24 of the SICL specification.
2015-05-03T14:04:23Z pjb: testerbit: or better: use (quote dog) and Don't ue #' which is useless before (lambda.
2015-05-03T14:04:33Z drmeister: beach: No problem.
2015-05-03T14:04:50Z testerbit: pjb: thanks
2015-05-03T14:05:18Z drmeister: I'll check out the chapter.
2015-05-03T14:05:31Z beach: drmeister: The main idea is to create a host graph of objects that is isomorphic to the target graph.
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2015-05-03T14:05:53Z beach: drmeister: Then I traverse that host graph in order to generate the target graph as a memory image.
2015-05-03T14:06:59Z drmeister: That's interesting - I'll read up and ask better questions.
2015-05-03T14:09:15Z beach: The tricky part is to create that host graph.  I don't want to duplicate information, so I use the "normal" code, such as (defclass standard-class ...) and (defgeneric ensure-generic-function-using-class ...)
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2015-05-03T14:10:04Z beach: That "normal" code is a perfectly accurate description of the target graph.  Now I "just" have to make it work in a host system.
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2015-05-03T15:14:04Z therik: Hello
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2015-05-03T15:28:03Z JuanDaugherty: yello therik
2015-05-03T15:28:21Z therik: hey hey
2015-05-03T15:28:31Z therik: my M-. didn't work, but I figured out already
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2015-05-03T15:29:29Z therik: it worked for in-built functions but not my defined ones, at least it seemed like that
2015-05-03T15:29:51Z JuanDaugherty: heel goed
2015-05-03T15:29:52Z therik: at one point I noticed it took me to C sources of emacs, then I realised I've got emacs-lisp-mode
2015-05-03T15:30:00Z therik: instead of common lisp
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2015-05-03T15:32:46Z dim: when using hunchentoot, is there a way to avoid using (with-output-to-string (s) (render-rss-feed s)) in handlers?
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2015-05-03T16:00:24Z madnificent: minion: memo for Xach: Related to the docker story: I defined a docker instance for hosting common lisp webservices.  See https://registry.hub.docker.com/u/madnificent/lisp-webservice/
2015-05-03T16:00:25Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Xach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-05-03T16:14:45Z theos: why not use THEY instead of he/she/it?
2015-05-03T16:16:00Z madnificent: theos: he/she/it is slightly funny
2015-05-03T16:16:34Z theos: it is
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2015-05-03T16:47:52Z christoph_debian: hmm are the subversion repositories for common-lisp.net gone? the relevant links on cl-irc's website are all 404
2015-05-03T16:49:47Z LiamH: I think there's supposed to be some kind of redirect, ehu would know.
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2015-05-03T16:51:12Z ehu: christoph_debian: I'll check. hold on.
2015-05-03T16:51:17Z ehu: (no, they're not gone)
2015-05-03T16:52:06Z ehu: ok. I see the problem.
2015-05-03T16:52:17Z ehu: I'll address that later, for now the answer is this:
2015-05-03T16:52:47Z ehu: https://common-lisp.net/viewvc/cl-irc/
2015-05-03T16:53:25Z ehu: christoph_debian: ^^^
2015-05-03T16:53:41Z ehu: LiamH: thanks for putting my nick in it; was reading another window.
2015-05-03T16:54:06Z LiamH: ehu: I figured it might ring a chime for you.
2015-05-03T16:55:17Z christoph_debian: ehu: thanks!
2015-05-03T16:56:25Z ehu: christoph_debian: welcome!
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2015-05-03T17:10:20Z ehu: christoph_debian: redirect fixed.
2015-05-03T17:13:18Z christoph_debian: indeed now only http://common-lisp.net/faq.shtml#checkout is still 404
2015-05-03T17:15:53Z ehu: right. the faq hasn't been re-installed.
2015-05-03T17:16:11Z ehu: I have to work on that (though, if you want to help, that'd be great, of course!)
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2015-05-03T17:59:04Z not_a_tiger: Which Common Lisp is easiest to setup and get coding with on Ubuntu?
2015-05-03T17:59:16Z p_l: SBCL probably
2015-05-03T18:00:15Z not_a_tiger: I imagine `sudo apt-get install sbcl ; sbcl my-program.lisp`. Is it that easy?
2015-05-03T18:00:40Z beach: Not recommended.
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2015-05-03T18:01:06Z beach: not_a_tiger: Download a binary distribution of SBCL from sourceforge.
2015-05-03T18:01:18Z beach: Then install everything else using Quicklisp.
2015-05-03T18:01:22Z beach: ... including SLIME.
2015-05-03T18:01:37Z Bike: but yes, you could do sudo apt-get install sbcl && sbcl --load my-program.lisp
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2015-05-03T18:01:50Z Bike: not a good way to code, but you could do it.
2015-05-03T18:01:51Z p_l: distros (especially debian-related) tended to do some not necessarily helpful changes
2015-05-03T18:01:58Z not_a_tiger: Why make it so hard, beach?
2015-05-03T18:02:18Z beach: not_a_tiger: I didn't do it.
2015-05-03T18:02:22Z Bike: slime is way more pleasant than sbcl --load
2015-05-03T18:03:54Z beach: not_a_tiger: Which part do you consider hard?
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2015-05-03T18:06:17Z not_a_tiger: beach: Downloading binaries from outside the repos defeats the purpose of the package manager, and it not good practice. If everyone on the distro is using the same packages then bugs in the package can be fixed more efficiently.
2015-05-03T18:07:13Z Bike: debian's lisps are historically not good
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2015-05-03T18:07:32Z Bike: well, what i do is get the distro sbcl, then at some point use it to build an sbcl from source and put it in /usr/local
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2015-05-03T18:09:39Z not_a_tiger: Bike: That's an advanced usage pattern and requires you to take responsibility for managing your packages manually. Most Ubuntu users don't want this, else they'd be using Slack, or Arch, or LFS.
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2015-05-03T18:10:04Z beach: not_a_tiger: You can do what you want of course.  But what I told you is the method that is known to work.  Other methods might give you problems, and then you will be back here asking why things don't work.
2015-05-03T18:10:07Z Bike: i have faith that you can manage this advanced usage pattern, as a programmer, i guess?
2015-05-03T18:10:20Z Bike: i mean this isn't a chat client.
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2015-05-03T18:11:54Z p_l: not_a_tiger: to put it bluntly, many attempts in history of packaging CL turned sour, which is why you get this advice.
2015-05-03T18:12:03Z p_l: Best intentions leading on the road to hell, as it turned out
2015-05-03T18:12:03Z not_a_tiger: Bike: As a "programmer" I have faith in my ability to utterly break everything I touch. My tinkering tendencies have led me to the edge of disaster more often than not.
2015-05-03T18:12:30Z p_l: not_a_tiger: FWIW, I believe last time I tried SBCL from Ubuntu's repo it worked quite fine
2015-05-03T18:12:32Z not_a_tiger: Anyway, I'm grateful for the advice and information.
2015-05-03T18:12:34Z Bike: sbcl is reasonably self-contained, i've never needed to alter any ubuntu configuration files for it or nuthin'
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2015-05-03T18:13:40Z p_l: not_a_tiger: also, it's recommended to get acquaintained with https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ and use it to install slime (even if you're going to use Slimv or similar, as it will setup common files)
2015-05-03T18:15:02Z Petit_Dejeuner: Any reason why every language has its own package manager instead of just a different repo?
2015-05-03T18:15:57Z p_l: Petit_Dejeuner: Often because a) distro packaging wasn't a fit at all b) faster developement and sharing of code c) every distro had its own package manager that was incompatible with the rest
2015-05-03T18:17:35Z Petit_Dejeuner: How can 'a)'and 'c)' be a problem if so many things ARE on a package manager? Or am I overestimating how well they work?
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2015-05-03T18:19:58Z p_l: Petit_Dejeuner: overestimating, and also not accounting for c) being as much of a problem (especially debian, though RPMs were annoying as well), also for 'b)', many language-specific package managers also handle cross-platform sharing and developement work
2015-05-03T18:20:33Z p_l: I use so-called "deployment mode" in bundler, for example, to safely install libs locally for the app instead of systemwide
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2015-05-03T18:22:19Z Shinmera: If you have a package manager for your language, you only have to publish once. Otherwise you'd have to see about creating a package for every distro out there, which is close to impossible depending on packaging standards and submission restrictions.
2015-05-03T18:22:28Z shka: hello all
2015-05-03T18:22:51Z Shinmera: Having one for your language also enables you to easily reach outside of the linux environment. Otherwise you'd have to maintain special releases for those too.
2015-05-03T18:22:54Z p_l: Shinmera: and debian packages are awful in many areas to make
2015-05-03T18:23:16Z Shinmera: "those" being Os X and Windows, BSD, etc.
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2015-05-03T18:23:41Z p_l: some distros implement mechanism that allow you to quickly package from language-specific repo to distribution repository (gentoo)
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2015-05-03T18:23:58Z Shinmera: tl;dr: Package managers that aren't suited to the environment you're developing in (your language) are not feasible for distribution in the general case.
2015-05-03T18:24:14Z p_l: I actually used such things to make Gentoo packages out of Debian's :D
2015-05-03T18:24:27Z dim: p_l: have a look at ql-to-deb that mostly translates Quicklisp releases to debian packages
2015-05-03T18:24:28Z Shinmera: It works for C/++ projects because Linux et al are environments for that.
2015-05-03T18:24:56Z shka: anyway
2015-05-03T18:25:13Z p_l patiently waits for his automated debian install
2015-05-03T18:26:02Z shka: does anybody knows what kind of alghorithm is used to get simplest form of equation in maxima and other symbolic math software?
2015-05-03T18:26:11Z shka: i'm struggling to figure this out
2015-05-03T18:26:24Z shka: this seems to be nontrivial issue
2015-05-03T18:26:35Z shka: (but it is fun)
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2015-05-03T18:31:08Z christoph_debian: p_l: I'd be happy to hear about not helpfull changes in debian's sbcl
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2015-05-03T18:34:15Z p_l: christoph_debian: outdated, and mostly not-updated code to implement loading of ASDF systems from deb packages, which sometimes leads to problems during developement
2015-05-03T18:37:01Z christoph_debian: dunno, sbcl has hardly been one release behind ever
2015-05-03T18:37:32Z christoph_debian: there's no custom code baked into lisp binarys for almost 5 jears now
2015-05-03T18:38:11Z christoph_debian: given the ~2 months between sbcl releases I'd say that's fair
2015-05-03T18:39:16Z nyef: SBCL is "normally" released on a monthly basis.
2015-05-03T18:40:05Z christoph_debian: maybe even that
2015-05-03T18:41:01Z christoph_debian: http://snapshot.debian.org/package/sbcl/ seems to indicate no 3+ months hole since pre-1.0 days
2015-05-03T18:41:04Z H4ns: since when can the topic only be set by channel ops?
2015-05-03T18:41:13Z christoph_debian: anyway if there's anything concrete I'd love to hear
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2015-05-03T18:41:27Z christoph_debian: more than willing to improve things
2015-05-03T18:41:43Z nyef: H4ns: Since the mode was set +t, whenever that was.
2015-05-03T18:41:57Z H4ns: nyef: do you have the powers to remove that again?
2015-05-03T18:42:11Z nyef: No, I've never been an op here.
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2015-05-03T18:43:29Z christoph_debian: the whole quicklisp is probably the usual "My language is special, the package manager there should be the same everywhere" vs. "My distro is special my package manager there should be the same for whatever I do"
2015-05-03T18:43:34Z pjb: shka: usually, it's rule based, with a set of simple simplification rules, that is applied iteratively until no simplification can be performed.
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2015-05-03T18:44:13Z dim:    7: SB-IMPL::ERROR-ERROR
2015-05-03T18:44:13Z dim:    8: SB-IMPL::INFINITE-ERROR-PROTECTOR
2015-05-03T18:44:13Z dim:    9: SB-KERNEL::INTERNAL-ERROR
2015-05-03T18:44:17Z pjb: shka:  like: x+0 --> x,   x*1 --> x,   (x-x) --> 0, etc.
2015-05-03T18:44:41Z dim: should I have some hope? seems like sbcl broke the daemon lib in 1.2.10, or the other way round, dunno
2015-05-03T18:44:41Z nyef: christoph_debian: Except that the amount of trouble people had when debian was doing "special" things with Lisp packages was impressive.
2015-05-03T18:45:02Z dim: maybe now is the time to learn how to use ldb?
2015-05-03T18:45:38Z nyef: dim: Almost the only uses for ldb are getting a backtrace, and looking at interrupt contexts.
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2015-05-03T18:45:59Z dim: ok I have an all SB internals backtrace
2015-05-03T18:46:03Z dim:   99: SB-IMPL::CALL-WITH-SANE-IO-SYNTAX
2015-05-03T18:46:23Z dim: that's the outermost call, IIUC
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2015-05-03T18:46:56Z dim: so basically (given   96: COMMON-LISP::FORMAT) ldb is telling me that I have a format bug?
2015-05-03T18:47:49Z nyef: Not necessarily.
2015-05-03T18:48:03Z christoph_debian: nyef: might be. would be definitely interested in sbcl-package-related things
2015-05-03T18:48:24Z christoph_debian: for libraries the situation is meh I know
2015-05-03T18:48:31Z nyef: dim: lisppaste the lossage message, the backtrace, and any interrupt contexts, please?
2015-05-03T18:49:19Z ChanServ has set mode +o p_l
2015-05-03T18:49:22Z p_l has set mode -t
2015-05-03T18:49:23Z dim: apparently I'm finding some fixes
2015-05-03T18:49:26Z ChanServ has set mode -o p_l
2015-05-03T18:49:29Z p_l: H4ns: done
2015-05-03T18:49:32Z dim: will post you the commitdiff in soem
2015-05-03T18:49:37Z H4ns: p_l: thanks!
2015-05-03T18:49:39Z nyef: christoph_debian: The thing is, Debian used to use something called "common-lisp-controller", in order to rebuild library fasls whenever the base implementation package was updated... Thus, affected the implementation packages as well.
2015-05-03T18:49:40Z H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>|contact op if muted| Hunchentoot 1.2.32, cl-launch 4.1.3, Drakma 1.3.14, SBCL 1.2.10
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2015-05-03T18:53:34Z dim: mmm, it's very unstable ;(
2015-05-03T18:53:43Z dim: nyef: how do I get to interrupt contexts?
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2015-05-03T18:55:13Z dim: nyef: http://paste.lisp.org/display/147776
2015-05-03T18:55:17Z nyef: The "context" command.
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2015-05-03T18:56:12Z dim: annotated with its output
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2015-05-03T18:56:57Z nyef: Oh, wow.
2015-05-03T18:57:01Z nyef: Yeah, that's not good.
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2015-05-03T18:57:51Z nyef: I think that dougk_ was doing something with the infinite error protector recently.
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2015-05-03T18:58:22Z dim: should I try with an older version of sbcl?
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2015-05-03T18:58:40Z nyef: Maybe. Or with *break-on-signals* t.
2015-05-03T18:59:07Z hefner: hmm. I want to define a macro that does the equivalent of defpackage, in package, and some boilerplate definitions within that package
2015-05-03T18:59:21Z nyef: Although it looks like there might be something poisoning your system... One of the errors comes in during backtrace.
2015-05-03T18:59:29Z dim: on the server I have 1.2.4.debian and I believe it errors out in similar ways, I didn't try running it with :exit-parent nil yet
2015-05-03T18:59:41Z nyef: Actually, many of them come in during backtrace. This is weird.
2015-05-03T18:59:58Z dim: is there another lib similar in purpose to daemon that I could try using?
2015-05-03T19:00:58Z dim: maybe https://github.com/mishoo/cl-daemonize ?
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2015-05-03T19:04:40Z nyef: I have no idea what daemon or cl-daemonize end up doing... But I'm suddenly wondering if part of your problem has to do with I/O streams, particularly stderr.
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2015-05-03T19:06:54Z dim:       (setf sb-sys:*stderr* (make-broadcast-stream))
2015-05-03T19:06:56Z dim: the lib does that
2015-05-03T19:07:36Z dim: mmm, could be that I'm passing a filename (string) instead of an opened stream
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2015-05-03T19:12:38Z nyef: Yeah, having stderr closed might explain a good chunk of that ldb experience.
2015-05-03T19:13:28Z dim: oh would just mean that ldb output is gibberish, wouldn't help understanding what's happening, right?
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2015-05-03T19:18:46Z ejbs: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp just hit 10k subscribers!
2015-05-03T19:18:52Z remi`bd: :D
2015-05-03T19:20:27Z christoph_debian: nyef: I remember. that's the thing which stopped to exist basically 5 years ago
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2015-05-03T19:36:07Z nyef: dim: What I'm expecting is that the ldb itself is using a freshly open()ed /dev/tty or similar, while the print logic is occasionally using stdout or stderr, and most of the time it works, but in your case it blows up somehow. Or something else could be going on like a completely crazy pointer that looks valid but isn't.
2015-05-03T19:36:45Z dim: well I'd like to just be able to run my code as a daemon obviously, but yeah
2015-05-03T19:37:26Z dim: for now the code runs fine in Emacs in a tmux on the server, that said
2015-05-03T19:37:28Z nyef: Your own use, or for distribution?
2015-05-03T19:37:40Z dim: my own use, http://cl.tapoueh.org/
2015-05-03T19:37:56Z nyef: I usually just run in screen. Same sort of setup.
2015-05-03T19:37:59Z dim: it allows me to double check my git push before I recompile into a static website
2015-05-03T19:38:35Z dim: the production website is http://tapoueh.org, cl.* is an all dynamic no cache version of it
2015-05-03T19:39:01Z dim: it's fast enough that it could be the production service I guess, but I don't like running code to display static resources
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2015-05-03T20:05:51Z Petit_Dejeuner: Been reading about the Symbolics 3600. Do Common Lisp implementations use LOCATIVE pointers to definitions of functions? Do *special* vars work the sameway?
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2015-05-03T20:07:00Z Quadrescence: Petit_Dejeuner, locatives aren't really a thing in modern Common Lisp
2015-05-03T20:07:23Z Quadrescence: It's all sort of muddled away in SETF expansions and the notion of an object
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2015-05-03T20:08:19Z Shinmera: H4ns: I think it was set +t in response to some joker realising that they could set the topic to oh so funny things.
2015-05-03T20:09:42Z therik: emacs' shell isn't powerful enough
2015-05-03T20:09:48Z therik: it can't run emacs in it
2015-05-03T20:10:06Z Shinmera: ansi-term sure can.
2015-05-03T20:10:37Z therik: jeez you're right
2015-05-03T20:11:41Z Petit_Dejeuner: Quadrescence, What do you mean by notion of an object?
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2015-05-03T20:12:28Z therik: 6 levels deep and it's starting to get slow
2015-05-03T20:13:46Z Petit_Dejeuner: Ha, now try opening two terms each level down.
2015-05-03T20:14:52Z Quadrescence: Petit_Dejeuner, I mean objects are usually internally pointers to some record-like structure in memory. But that is almost completely transparent to the programmer.
2015-05-03T20:15:31Z therik: Petit_Dejeuner, I can't close it, C-x C-c doesn't work
2015-05-03T20:16:00Z therik: I'm outa there or I get stucked in recursion
2015-05-03T20:16:07Z Shinmera: therik: For a single level, using C-x C-x C-c C-c will close the inner. You figure out the rest.
2015-05-03T20:16:07Z Petit_Dejeuner: therik, I've never had much luck with emacs terminals.
2015-05-03T20:16:28Z therik: Shinmera, ah, didn't know, thanks
2015-05-03T20:20:07Z Petit_Dejeuner: Quadrescence, If the notion of an object muddles away concepts like locatives, wouldn't the notion of an object be opaque?
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2015-05-03T20:20:57Z Quadrescence: Petit_Dejeuner, Lisp still allows you to observe things like object identity that is completely disjoint from the object's notional value
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2015-05-03T20:21:38Z Petit_Dejeuner: By identity you mean #'eq and notional #'equal?
2015-05-03T20:21:52Z Quadrescence: yes, well EQUAL isn't quite general enough, but yes
2015-05-03T20:21:59Z kami: Xach: is there a way of uninstalling a system which was quickloaded?
2015-05-03T20:22:02Z therik: Petit_Dejeuner, it's hard to keep track of which level am I in
2015-05-03T20:22:19Z nyef: kami: Short on disk space or something?
2015-05-03T20:22:33Z therik: Petit_Dejeuner, it was easy with straight chain, but if it forks to two on each level, I can't keep track of which emacs I'm splitting window in
2015-05-03T20:22:41Z kami: nyef: no, have a patched version which I would like to put in an own dist with quickdist
2015-05-03T20:22:41Z Shinmera: kami: ql:uninstall ?
2015-05-03T20:22:41Z Quadrescence: Petit_Dejeuner, you might like to play with https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/cl-locatives
2015-05-03T20:23:04Z Petit_Dejeuner: therik, I think you've had one too many pushing potions.
2015-05-03T20:23:04Z Quadrescence: it is not the same as lisp machine locatives, and they're not super general or efficient, but they give you the idea of what one can do with a locative
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2015-05-03T20:23:53Z dim: nyef: I got passed this bug by doing it all myself (not using daemon anymore, sb-posix calls directly), but the behavior still is strange (to me) in the child after the fork, as in the process is listening on the port, but it's like the code isn't running then (telnet ok, curl ko)
2015-05-03T20:23:53Z kami: Shinmera: I swear it wasn't there when I tab-completed on ql:uninst<TAB>
2015-05-03T20:23:58Z dim: will see another day now
2015-05-03T20:24:13Z kami thanks Shinmera and is ashamed
2015-05-03T20:24:17Z Shinmera: :)
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2015-05-03T20:26:06Z kami: Shinmera: BTW did I thank you multiple times for dist?
2015-05-03T20:26:16Z kami: shirakumo-dist, that is
2015-05-03T20:26:27Z Shinmera: kami: I don't think so. Was it useful to you?
2015-05-03T20:26:38Z kami is even more ashamed
2015-05-03T20:26:50Z kami: Yes, works likes a charm.
2015-05-03T20:26:56Z Shinmera: Cool, I'm glad to hear!
2015-05-03T20:27:10Z therik: Petit_Dejeuner, what's a pushing potion?
2015-05-03T20:27:29Z kami: Will be the way to distribute a working set of libs to colleagues.
2015-05-03T20:28:18Z Petit_Dejeuner: therik, The Tortise and Achilles use them in the book Godel Escher Bach.
2015-05-03T20:28:41Z Petit_Dejeuner: Pushing potions push you into a painting. One level deeper.
2015-05-03T20:28:47Z kami: Shinmera: Later, I would like to combine that dist with QL's bundle export mechanism with the hu.dwim.build scripts to dump an executable image from the latest dist.
2015-05-03T20:30:04Z therik: Petit_Dejeuner, ah you just reminded me of a fairytale movie I watched as a kid
2015-05-03T20:30:39Z Petit_Dejeuner: Stacktraces just got more interesting.
2015-05-03T20:31:08Z therik: function is a pushing potion then
2015-05-03T20:31:13Z therik: and stack trace is a map
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2015-05-03T20:32:00Z Shinmera: kami: As a future project I'm thinking of dropping quickdist in favour of my own system that would include a web frontend in addition to the quicklisp necessary servings.
2015-05-03T20:32:37Z Petit_Dejeuner: therik, And a return is popping tonic.
2015-05-03T20:32:40Z Shinmera: But that'll be a while.
2015-05-03T20:32:48Z therik: Petit_Dejeuner, :))
2015-05-03T20:32:53Z Petit_Dejeuner: But you have to be careful not to take any before you've pushed.
2015-05-03T20:33:10Z therik: sure, or you end up in terminal
2015-05-03T20:33:42Z therik: what if you're already in reality and drink popping tonic?
2015-05-03T20:33:55Z therik: do you start tripping or what?
2015-05-03T20:34:12Z kami: Shinmera: to be honest, I don't fully understand that part. Isn't it sufficient to push the content of the release/ subdir to a simple web server for static serving?
2015-05-03T20:34:42Z Shinmera: kami: It is, yes.
2015-05-03T20:34:50Z kami: Shinmera: wait. A web 'frontend'. I didn't read carefully.
2015-05-03T20:35:19Z kami: You want to build a quicklisp reverse proxy?
2015-05-03T20:35:25Z Shinmera: Uh, no
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2015-05-03T20:35:39Z Shinmera: I want to make what the dist provides browseable.
2015-05-03T20:36:00Z Shinmera: In similar vein to quickdocs, I suppose.
2015-05-03T20:36:07Z kami: I see.
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2015-05-03T20:36:43Z Petit_Dejeuner: therik, Achilles had already asked the question. https://www.refheap.com/872d735ca0b8cf75e6d47c554
2015-05-03T20:36:51Z Petit_Dejeuner: I think you'd like the book.
2015-05-03T20:38:04Z kami: Shinmera: good idea. People would be able to see what they get before they install the dist.
2015-05-03T20:39:06Z kami: Shinmera: would you make use of quickdocs (don't know whether that's possible)?
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2015-05-03T20:48:22Z therik: Petit_Dejeuner, thanks
2015-05-03T20:48:32Z Shinmera: kami: Probably not.
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2015-05-03T20:59:07Z oleo_: how do you make plotted points of a graph which is dense on some range and not-so dense on other regions get equilibrated ?
2015-05-03T20:59:32Z oleo_: fooo
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2015-05-03T21:02:13Z therik: Achilles: And what is that? | Genie: This is my Meta-Lamp ... | Meta-Genie: I am the Meta-Genie. You summoned me, 0 Genie? What is your wish?
2015-05-03T21:02:17Z therik: Petit_Dejeuner, Man, that's brilliant :D
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2015-05-03T21:03:16Z Petit_Dejeuner: G.O.D. Over Djinn
2015-05-03T21:05:16Z therik: Genie: I am pleased to report, Ach
2015-05-03T21:05:16Z therik: illes, that you r have exactly one (1)
2015-05-03T21:05:16Z therik: Typeless Wish-that is to sa wish, or
2015-05-03T21:05:16Z therik: a meta-wish, or a meta-meta-wish,
2015-05-03T21:05:16Z therik: as many "meta"'s as you wish-even infinitely many (if wish).
2015-05-03T21:05:30Z therik: I have to read this!
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2015-05-03T21:09:42Z nyef: Wow, GEB:EGB. I haven't seen a reference to that in ages. (-:
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2015-05-03T21:14:18Z mood: Does somebody perhaps have a websocket client library somewhere?
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2015-05-03T21:17:55Z Shinmera: mood: there's hunchensocket
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2015-05-03T21:19:23Z mood: Shinmera: I didn't know Hunchensocket can also act as a client. Can it?
2015-05-03T21:19:47Z Shinmera: Oh, no, it can't.
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2015-05-03T21:19:53Z Shinmera: I didn't read "client". My mistake.
2015-05-03T21:20:26Z mood: I guess I can figure something out, perhaps turn it into a library
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2015-05-03T21:30:55Z therik: What's is this book!!!   " Pushcorn and popcorn are extraordinarily difficult to tell apart. "
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2015-05-03T22:57:56Z wobh: Anyone here know of an article describing best practices for using `quote' in Common Lisp?
2015-05-03T22:59:36Z Denommus: wobh: what do you mean?
2015-05-03T23:00:00Z Denommus: In a macro or something?
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2015-05-03T23:02:37Z wobh: Basically, I've heard of some gotcha's about it. The code being discussed was case a list of cons literals.
2015-05-03T23:04:27Z wobh: I've never thought about it much before, and I'm generally pretty casual about quoting lists of symbols, for example.
2015-05-03T23:04:32Z Denommus: wobh: I guess On Lisp covers the gotchas
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2015-05-03T23:06:55Z wobh: Thanks! I don't remember that from the book, but it's been awhile.
2015-05-03T23:07:27Z Denommus: If On Lisp doesn't, PCL probably does
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2015-05-03T23:11:55Z wobh: The only really problematic thing I can think of is when a destructive function gets called on one.
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2015-05-03T23:13:16Z k-stz: wobh: perhaps you mean http://random-state.net/files/nikodemus-cl-faq.html see the section "SET, SETQ and SETF..."
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2015-05-03T23:16:34Z k-stz: ah sorry meant "'(1 2 3) or (list 1 2 3)?"
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2015-05-04T00:22:12Z pjb: wobh: the best practice in programming is using your brains!
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2015-05-04T00:43:17Z p_l: nyef: btw, you mentioned having a X11 reference book...
2015-05-04T00:43:47Z nyef: p_l: I used to have some, yes.
2015-05-04T00:44:05Z p_l: ah, "used"
2015-05-04T00:44:19Z p_l was hoping to gain them for a cost of shipping :D
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2015-05-04T00:46:06Z nyef: Too late, I'm afraid.
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2015-05-04T01:18:18Z vrrm: p_l: I'm assuming you have reason for wanting the old "X Window System" reference manuals.  But in case you weren't aware, virtually all that material can be found on the xorg site: http://www.x.org/wiki/ProgrammingDocumentation/
2015-05-04T01:19:11Z vrrm: p_l: http://www.x.org/releases/X11R7.7/doc/index.html
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2015-05-04T01:21:32Z p_l: I had them once in my hands, and I think I'd prefer to go through them :)
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2015-05-04T01:23:15Z vrrm: p_l: I figured that was the case, the above was just in case you weren't aware.
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2015-05-04T02:41:33Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-05-04T02:42:12Z theos: hey
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2015-05-04T02:55:43Z pillton: G'day beach.
2015-05-04T02:59:55Z pillton: Well, over the weekend I learned that I was wrong. You can write your own array like type which is not derived from ARRAY.
2015-05-04T03:01:09Z beach: Where do you store the elements?
2015-05-04T03:02:00Z p_l recalls a certain talk that involved a lot of sys:memref ;)
2015-05-04T03:02:47Z pillton: They are stored in an lisp array, but that object isn't used by TYPEP.
2015-05-04T03:03:50Z pillton: I needed an structure which had the concept of a leading dimension.
2015-05-04T03:03:59Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-05-04T03:04:01Z pillton: array structure sorry.
2015-05-04T03:04:50Z nyef: pillton: Do you still provide an AREF operation, or is it named something else?
2015-05-04T03:05:14Z pillton: Something else, but if enough type information is provided it gets expanded in to AREF.
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2015-05-04T03:06:57Z pillton: It supports both row major and column major arrangements too.
2015-05-04T03:08:50Z drmeister: Hi beach
2015-05-04T03:10:46Z beach: drmeister: How are Clasp improvements going?
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2015-05-04T03:11:37Z drmeister: Clasp with tagged pointers compiles its compiler, but I'm still tracking down bugs.
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2015-05-04T03:12:23Z drmeister: I've expanded FIXNUMs to 63 bits at the same time and I'm tracking down problems that this has caused.  It's in preparation for switching from boxed FIXNUMs to immediate FIXNUMs
2015-05-04T03:12:44Z drmeister: For example:   most-positive-fixnum --> -1
2015-05-04T03:12:48Z drmeister: Ooops
2015-05-04T03:13:01Z beach: Ooops indeed.
2015-05-04T03:13:32Z pillton: p_l: That wasn't me who talked about sys:memref.
2015-05-04T03:13:48Z nyef: Heh. Reminds me of expanding FIXNUMs to 63 bits in SBCL. (-:
2015-05-04T03:15:11Z nyef: (In theory, on 64-bit SBCL, it should be possible to build with 61-63 bit FIXNUMs, based on a quick tweak the the definition of n-fixnum-tag-bits, but it doesn't really get tested all that often.
2015-05-04T03:15:14Z nyef: )
2015-05-04T03:16:21Z drmeister: Does SBCL use the GNU multiple precision library?
2015-05-04T03:16:59Z nyef: contrib/sb-gmp ?
2015-05-04T03:17:21Z nyef: I suppose that that might be some OTHER "gmp".
2015-05-04T03:17:23Z drmeister: No - internally.
2015-05-04T03:17:40Z nyef: I wouldn't imagine so. What does it do?
2015-05-04T03:17:41Z drmeister: I guess SBCL implements its own bignum library
2015-05-04T03:17:50Z drmeister: Bignums
2015-05-04T03:17:51Z nyef: Yes, SB!BIGNUM.
2015-05-04T03:18:01Z drmeister: I'm using GMP
2015-05-04T03:18:17Z nyef: Often a hilarious source of bugs on new (or newly-maintained) ports.
2015-05-04T03:19:00Z p_l: pillton: if you weren't at ELS, it might be a bit too much of an in-joke :)
2015-05-04T03:19:04Z drmeister: What is?  GMP?
2015-05-04T03:19:15Z nyef: No, SBCL's bignum support.
2015-05-04T03:19:19Z drmeister: Ah
2015-05-04T03:19:44Z nyef: Xof commented on his blog about it a couple of times.
2015-05-04T03:20:15Z pillton: p_l: Ok. Well, it went straight over my head. No noise either. :)
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2015-05-04T03:23:38Z nyef: From one year, eight days ago (has it really been that long?): http://www.advogato.org/person/crhodes/diary/189.html
2015-05-04T03:26:06Z beach: pillton: I think p_l is trying to make you come to ELS next year.
2015-05-04T03:26:27Z p_l: :)
2015-05-04T03:26:35Z p_l: I might even be in the hosting crew
2015-05-04T03:26:46Z beach: Oh, right!  Nice!
2015-05-04T03:26:47Z nyef: Fun achievement today: working D64 DMA on my Origin 350, meaning that the tg3 card can send and receive packets without the kernel panicking after 750 of them.
2015-05-04T03:27:18Z nyef: I still have no idea what's going on with the SCSI controller, though.
2015-05-04T03:27:22Z beach: nyef: Congratulations!
2015-05-04T03:28:15Z nyef: It's at the point where I'm starting to look into netboot options (as I have another machine which has no drive rails for some reason, and I've been unable to source replacements).
2015-05-04T03:28:53Z nyef: So, getting closer to a usable system for me to run SBCL on.
2015-05-04T03:30:24Z beach: I admire your patience.  It must take a lot of it for that kind of debugging.
2015-05-04T03:31:28Z nyef: It's not so much patience as... repeated attempts with exponential backoff.
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2015-05-04T03:31:47Z beach: Human Ethernet.
2015-05-04T03:31:50Z nyef: Heh.
2015-05-04T03:32:01Z nyef: IP over Bicycle Courier?
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2015-05-04T03:32:21Z beach: :)
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2015-05-04T03:33:03Z beach: There was a spec for IP over carrier pigeon, wasn't there?
2015-05-04T03:33:15Z nyef: Yes, there was. Also over commercial air carrier.
2015-05-04T03:33:42Z nyef: Sometimes I'll be working on a project and run into a total brick wall. And I'll leave it alone for MONTHS at a time, coming back to it periodically. It's been known to take YEARS to figure out where the mistake was.
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2015-05-04T03:34:44Z nyef: One of these was writing a bare-metal boot loader for NetBSD/macppc (to replace the MacOS Application). Another was SBCL/Win32. Another was SBCL/ARM.
2015-05-04T03:34:52Z beach: Yes, I see your strategy now.  I think it actually helps to leave it for some time.
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2015-05-04T03:38:34Z nyef: It can. At the very least, you can work on something else, rather than staying stuck and frustrated with a project that just isn't going anywhere.
2015-05-04T03:38:52Z beach: Good point, yes.
2015-05-04T03:39:28Z p_l: it's a good idea if you can leave the project to stew :/
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2015-05-04T03:45:22Z p_l hopes that this time the machine will boot after reboot
2015-05-04T03:45:27Z beach: drmeister: As a result of your question about bootstrapping SICL, I came up with the one-line explanation that I gave you, i.e. "Create a graph of host objects isomorphic to the desired graph of target objects.  Use normal-looking definitions of classes, generic-functions, methods, etc. to describe this graph.  Traverse the graph of host objects to create the memory image of the target."
2015-05-04T03:47:28Z beach: drmeister: I shall use this explanation in the chapter on bootstrapping in the SICL specification.
2015-05-04T03:48:05Z nyef: beach: 42 words long? I thought the limit was 25? d-:
2015-05-04T03:48:19Z beach: Damn!
2015-05-04T03:48:33Z beach: Still good progress, though.
2015-05-04T03:48:53Z nyef: For extra credit, iambic pentameter!
2015-05-04T03:49:20Z beach: That shall have to be a contribution.
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2015-05-04T03:58:39Z drmeister: beach: With a little more work you can turn that into a tweet!
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2015-05-04T04:06:04Z pillton: p_l beach: I'd love to go to ELS.
2015-05-04T04:06:25Z aap_ is now known as aap
2015-05-04T04:09:22Z drmeister: Since I'm messing with C++ int and FIXNUMs... did anyone see this story?    http://www.i-programmer.info/news/149-security/8548-reboot-your-dreamliner-every-248-days-to-avoid-integer-overflow.html
2015-05-04T04:10:26Z nyef: ... Yes. Yes, we did.
2015-05-04T04:14:29Z p_l has kinda closer relationship to that kind of reports, so yes, indeed
2015-05-04T04:14:54Z drmeister is starting to hate "int"
2015-05-04T04:15:25Z drmeister: Yayyy!
2015-05-04T04:15:28Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/D46CNALg
2015-05-04T04:15:29Z nyef: "unsigned int eger, erior, errupt;"
2015-05-04T04:16:01Z nyef: Well, that looks reasonable. Congratulations, drmeister!
2015-05-04T04:16:18Z drmeister: If they'd used those puppies they would be able to fly until the sun went nova.
2015-05-04T04:16:35Z p_l suspects he had blown fuses in the office, again
2015-05-04T04:17:02Z drmeister: It's funny how interlocking failures work sometimes.
2015-05-04T04:17:05Z p_l: aaaand the whole night lost on tinkering with the bloody netinstall
2015-05-04T04:17:23Z drmeister: I found that fixnums weren't working properly because DELETE wouldn't work properly.
2015-05-04T04:18:01Z drmeister: And  I found DELETE didn't work properly because when I compile CLOS the compiler goes into a damn infinite loop.
2015-05-04T04:18:20Z drmeister: Apparently - you can go pretty far with a broken FIXNUM implementation.
2015-05-04T04:18:32Z nyef: Yes. Yes, you can.
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2015-05-04T04:19:12Z pillton: Isn't it Zhivago who says that software works by accident?
2015-05-04T04:19:23Z nyef: Not just Zhivago.
2015-05-04T04:19:32Z nyef: Also, some software works by fiat.
2015-05-04T04:19:45Z drmeister: Here's a real funny one.  In implementing tagged pointers I broke /= and it returned (/= 1 2) --> nil  and (/= 1 1) --> T.   It was opposite day.
2015-05-04T04:19:51Z nyef: (That is, it works by being declared to work.)
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2015-05-04T04:20:46Z pillton: nyef: Ah, a reality gap. I like it!
2015-05-04T04:21:51Z drmeister must get the ANSI Common Lisp tests to run as soon as he brings his system back up.
2015-05-04T04:22:07Z nyef: I'm looking at some PCI host controller code which is an odd mix of improvement over some other code for the same controller in a slightly different architecture, completely stupid at some things, doing an end-run around others, and a few points of WTF.
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2015-05-04T04:23:00Z drmeister: WTF == domain specific knowledge?
2015-05-04T04:23:47Z nyef: No, just... WTF.
2015-05-04T04:24:24Z drmeister: I'm never sure when I first encounter something I don't understand.  It's only in hindsight that WTF becomes apparent.
2015-05-04T04:24:40Z drmeister: Ah
2015-05-04T04:25:16Z drmeister: Cmon CLOS! Compile damnit.
2015-05-04T04:26:44Z nyef: So, the system has 64 IRQs. Eight have fixed assignments. Each PCI host controller chews through 8 of them, even if it only has one card installed. And then it turns out that there are expansion slots that accept boards that are a single PCI card with a dedicated host controller.
2015-05-04T04:27:51Z nyef: Seven such boards, and you are out of IRQs.
2015-05-04T04:28:06Z nyef: ... Or was it only 32 IRQs in the system? I might have to check on that...
2015-05-04T04:30:08Z nyef: Looks like 64, but a bunch of them are assigned.
2015-05-04T04:30:52Z nyef: And I'm thinking "WTF? There's not only a better way to do this, but there's PRECEDENT for it".
2015-05-04T04:34:38Z drmeister: beach: How is type inference going? Can it infer anything yet?
2015-05-04T04:35:09Z beach: Not yet.
2015-05-04T04:35:11Z drmeister: 'fer eliminating runtime type checks?
2015-05-04T04:36:23Z drmeister: No problem.
2015-05-04T04:36:25Z beach: Having to make it implementation independent is a bit messy.
2015-05-04T04:37:36Z beach: For example, it is important that it can determine when an object is a fixnum, so that it can use fast fixnum arithmetic.
2015-05-04T04:37:53Z beach: But I need to know what the implementation defines to be a fixnum.
2015-05-04T04:37:58Z drmeister: So I guess the implementation dependencies express themselves in more places than the compiler macros.
2015-05-04T04:38:51Z beach: Compiler macros are just to convert calls to n-ary functions into calls to binary functions.
2015-05-04T04:39:44Z drmeister: They don't expand to lots of runtime checks?
2015-05-04T04:39:44Z beach: For example, there might be a call to CHECK-TYPE with a type such as (INTEGER <a> <b>).
2015-05-04T04:40:04Z beach: drmeister: No, inlining the binary functions will do that.
2015-05-04T04:40:36Z beach: So the type inferencer gets this type (INTEGER <a> <b>) but must know whether it is a fixnum in the implementation.
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2015-05-04T04:41:33Z beach: Therefore, I need to figure out a protocol so that the implementation can customize the type inferencer.
2015-05-04T04:41:49Z Quadrescence: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
2015-05-04T04:42:14Z drmeister: I see
2015-05-04T04:42:28Z beach: drmeister: The compiler macro turns (+ e1 e2 ... en) into (b-+ e1 (b-+ e2 ... (b+ en-1 en) ...))
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2015-05-04T04:42:49Z drmeister: Yes, that part I recall
2015-05-04T04:42:55Z beach: That's all.
2015-05-04T04:43:08Z beach: Then b-+ is a function that tests the type of its arguments.
2015-05-04T04:43:24Z drmeister: Once I implement it I'll develop a real firm grasp of the division of labor.
2015-05-04T04:43:52Z beach: Those tests are used by the type inferencer to eliminate tests where the result is known at compile time.
2015-05-04T04:44:33Z beach: We discussed whether B-+ could be implementation independent, and I don't think so at this point.
2015-05-04T04:45:19Z beach: For example, an implementation such as CLISP that uses arbitrary-precision floats for LONG-FLOAT should now use the UNBOX-LONG-FLOAT instruction.
2015-05-04T04:45:25Z drmeister: So B-+ is the COND with every possible combination of types and code to do the addition with those two types.
2015-05-04T04:45:40Z beach: Right.
2015-05-04T04:45:52Z beach: And one case will be adding two fixnums.
2015-05-04T04:45:59Z beach: And that case turns into a single instruction.
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2015-05-04T04:46:38Z drmeister: And in the case where adding two fixnums and they overflow - that's a runtime check and the second successor of the fixnum-add-instruction.
2015-05-04T04:46:48Z beach: At the moment, I don't see a simple way of making B-+ implementation independent.
2015-05-04T04:47:05Z beach: Right.
2015-05-04T04:47:19Z beach: The FIXNUM-ADD instruction has two successors, one for overflow.
2015-05-04T04:47:49Z beach: I briefly looked at the LLVM language reference, and I didn't see a way to express that.
2015-05-04T04:48:03Z drmeister: Maybe we could write B-+ as a macro that can be customized?
2015-05-04T04:48:16Z beach: No need.
2015-05-04T04:48:29Z drmeister: It's in the LLVM language reference. Hang on.
2015-05-04T04:48:30Z beach: Just let the implementation supply the AST for it as it pleases.
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2015-05-04T04:49:05Z drmeister: http://llvm.org/docs/LangRef.html#arithmetic-with-overflow-intrinsics
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2015-05-04T04:49:43Z beach: OK, good.  Like I said, I just had a brief look.
2015-05-04T04:50:00Z drmeister: That's ok, that took me a long look to find.
2015-05-04T04:50:12Z drmeister: I wasn't sure what I was looking for.
2015-05-04T04:50:31Z drmeister: But that and a branch will do the job.
2015-05-04T04:50:39Z beach: Sure.
2015-05-04T04:51:24Z beach: By having the implementation supply the AST for B-+, it can include only the float types it supports, and it can generate function calls for arbitrary-precision floats.
2015-05-04T04:52:11Z drmeister: Where do arbitrary precision floats come in?
2015-05-04T04:52:30Z beach: So, to summarize, the problem with type inference is not the type inference, but (as usual) a software-engineering problem to make the thing implementation independent and customizable.
2015-05-04T04:53:10Z beach: drmeister: Like I said, some implementations such as CLISP use arbitrary-precision floats for LONG-FLOAT.
2015-05-04T04:53:33Z drmeister: Oh, sorry - I missed that.
2015-05-04T04:53:46Z beach: Such an implementation would probably use a function call to implement B-+ for long-float.
2015-05-04T04:53:47Z drmeister: Right - we were talking about that a few days ago.
2015-05-04T04:54:11Z beach: ... as opposed to using Cleavir-provided instructions such as UNBOX-LONG-FLOAT.
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2015-05-04T04:54:59Z drmeister: Wouldn't the Cleavir provided instructions be used but then lowered to a function call to implement B-+ for long-float?
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2015-05-04T04:55:12Z beach: No.
2015-05-04T04:55:15Z beach: That's too late.
2015-05-04T04:55:23Z beach: It should be done at the AST level.
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2015-05-04T04:55:43Z drmeister: I don't get that?
2015-05-04T04:55:45Z drmeister: .
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2015-05-04T04:57:18Z beach: If it's not a function call at the HIR level, then things become messy, because you don't have a reference to the function name in HIR, so hoisting becomes complicated.
2015-05-04T04:58:03Z beach: So it is best to decide whether it is a function call already at the AST level.  It might be inlined there of course, but a decision should be made there whether to use a specialized HIR instruction or a function call.
2015-05-04T04:59:12Z beach: Another example: Cleavir supplies instructions for loading and storing elements of specialized arrays containing 16-bit integers.  But there is no point in generating those instructions in implementations that don't support such arrays.
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2015-05-04T05:00:09Z beach: drmeister: Does Clasp have 16-bit integer arrays?
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2015-05-04T05:01:23Z drmeister: I see what you mean about the function call at the HIR level.   However, I generate function calls when I generate LLVM-IR all the time.   I call them intrinsic functions - they are like LLVM-IR instructions.
2015-05-04T05:01:40Z drmeister: No, it doesn't have 16-bit integer arrays - what are they good for?
2015-05-04T05:01:44Z beach: drmeister: Then what would you do with a HIR instruction such as UNSIGNED-BYTE-16-AREF followed by a BOX-UNSIGNED-BYTE-16?
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2015-05-04T05:02:46Z beach: drmeister: For example, CD-quality samples are 16 bits.  So you can imagine an implementation that targets sound.
2015-05-04T05:02:50Z drmeister: What it does whenever it doesn't like something - segfault.
2015-05-04T05:03:10Z drmeister: I'm kidding.
2015-05-04T05:03:49Z drmeister: It's like all the other instructions that I mentioned I never see - I wouldn't even see it.
2015-05-04T05:04:15Z beach: drmeister: Well, for SICL, I don't do what you do with LLVM.  I need the functions to be hoisted so that I can turn them into a cell-loading function call at load time.
2015-05-04T05:04:32Z drmeister: You added them for your sound stuff.  Cool.
2015-05-04T05:04:41Z beach: drmeister: If I did what you suggested, then you would see it.
2015-05-04T05:05:26Z beach: You suggested generating unbox-long-float for all implementations, including CLISP.
2015-05-04T05:05:50Z beach: So I would then generate box-unsigned-byte for Clasp too I suppose.
2015-05-04T05:06:15Z beach: You are not suggesting I only do what is convenient for Clasp and possibly inconvenient for CLISP, are you?
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2015-05-04T05:08:41Z beach: Anyway, to summarize, the slow progress on type inference has nothing to do with type inference, and everything to do with software engineering and customization by the implementation.
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2015-05-04T05:10:52Z drmeister: Nope.  Sorry - I was reading back.  I didn't recall suggesting generating unbox-long-float for all implementations including CLISP.   Anyway, I see the wisdom of making it general.  It's like the function you have for creating tagged immediate values - nice.
2015-05-04T05:12:24Z drmeister: Could you remind me what that function was called?  I was just looking for it.  I'm going to have to add support for it once I have immediate fixnums
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2015-05-04T05:12:44Z beach: What function?
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2015-05-04T05:13:42Z drmeister: When I was implementing function-info and variable-info.
2015-05-04T05:14:11Z beach: I am lost, sorry.
2015-05-04T05:14:12Z drmeister: There was an implementation dependent function that I needed to implement to convert integers to immediate/tagged integers.
2015-05-04T05:14:23Z drmeister: For constants.
2015-05-04T05:15:10Z beach: I think I know what you are talking about.  When ASTs are created, right?
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2015-05-04T05:15:34Z drmeister: If you name it - I'll probably remember if that was it.
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2015-05-04T05:15:58Z drmeister: I think so, it was either AST or HIR related.
2015-05-04T05:16:22Z beach: I need to look in the code.
2015-05-04T05:16:42Z drmeister: I was going to make a note of it alongside function-info/variable-info because I'm didn't need to implement it before but I will soon.
2015-05-04T05:17:04Z beach: cleavir-ast:convert-constant-to-immediate.
2015-05-04T05:17:32Z beach: Sorry, cleavir-generate-ast:convert-constant-to-immediate.
2015-05-04T05:18:13Z drmeister: That seemed wordier than I recall.
2015-05-04T05:18:20Z drmeister: I'm looking for it.
2015-05-04T05:19:37Z drmeister: Maybe you changed the name - I don't see it in my local version of SICL.  But I haven't updated it for a couple of weeks.
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2015-05-04T05:20:18Z drmeister: But that's the kind of think I'm learning to appreciate.   I didn't need to do anything with it before because my implementation didn't need it.  Soon it will and then I can implement the function.
2015-05-04T05:21:14Z drmeister: No, don't worry - I'm not pushing you.  I have a lot of external stressors here but they aren't your problems.  I also have a lot of work to do to get immediates working and get Cleavir working again and then start writing the compiler macros and binary functions and figure out inlining.
2015-05-04T05:21:20Z beach: Right, and that's the additional difficulty with making things implementation independent.  Which is why it takes a bit longer.
2015-05-04T05:22:07Z beach: You do have some work to do before you can take advantage of type inference, yes.
2015-05-04T05:22:44Z drmeister: The way it looks, I'll get all this stuff working and tested and when the type inference kicks in - it will just make it faster.
2015-05-04T05:22:55Z beach: That's the idea, yes.
2015-05-04T05:23:09Z beach: Luckily, the type inferencer is not needed for correct code.
2015-05-04T05:23:35Z drmeister: Do you think I'll see any speed up without the type inference?
2015-05-04T05:23:45Z beach: Sure, for inlining.
2015-05-04T05:23:57Z drmeister: And inlining is already working?
2015-05-04T05:24:03Z beach: Rather than calling the function CONSP you will be checking tags.
2015-05-04T05:24:09Z drmeister: I haven't used it yet.
2015-05-04T05:24:10Z beach: Yes, inlining is working.
2015-05-04T05:24:22Z drmeister: I need to ask you about that - but it's late here.
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2015-05-04T05:24:51Z beach: Whenever you are ready.
2015-05-04T05:25:44Z drmeister: ok
2015-05-04T05:26:25Z beach: But it's easy.  Just set :inline to 'cl:inline and supply the AST when you are asked for function-info.
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2015-05-04T05:27:38Z drmeister: Which function takes an :inline keyword?
2015-05-04T05:27:53Z beach: make-instance :)
2015-05-04T05:28:12Z beach: (make-instance 'function-info :inline 'cl-inline :ast <the-ast>)
2015-05-04T05:28:25Z beach: [from memory]
2015-05-04T05:28:41Z drmeister: I see - within cleavir-env:function-info
2015-05-04T05:28:48Z beach: 'cl:inline
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2015-05-04T05:28:59Z drmeister: How do I generate the ASTs for the functions I want to inline?
2015-05-04T05:29:19Z beach: cleavir-ast:generate-ast.
2015-05-04T05:29:36Z beach: You should save the ASTs for functions you want to inline.
2015-05-04T05:29:38Z drmeister: On a DEFUN form? or a lambda form?
2015-05-04T05:30:02Z beach: DEFUN.
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2015-05-04T05:30:25Z beach: The :compile-toplevel of DEFUN should save the AST in the compilation environment.
2015-05-04T05:30:55Z beach: ... and probably the :load-toplevel action as well.
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2015-05-04T05:32:11Z drmeister: I'll ask you more about it tomorrow - I'm dozing off.
2015-05-04T05:32:33Z beach: OK.  Sleep well.
2015-05-04T05:32:49Z drmeister: I saved this conversation.
2015-05-04T05:36:19Z flip214: beach: do you know about SBCL equivalents for these things? I'd like to see type inferences for the variables in some code.
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2015-05-04T05:56:50Z beach: flip214: No, sorry, I don't.
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2015-05-04T05:57:53Z beach: flip214: I find I do better if I only look at existing work after I have tried to figure it out myself from scratch.
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2015-05-04T05:58:12Z flip214: the learning experience, I fully understand.
2015-05-04T05:58:16Z flip214: thanks all the same!
2015-05-04T05:59:12Z beach: flip214: Sorry I couldn't be of more help.  But there are many SBCL developers here, and even more in #sbcl if you need them.
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2015-05-04T13:59:57Z oleo: hello :)
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2015-05-04T14:09:27Z failproofshark: hello all
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2015-05-04T15:05:30Z pjb: clhs loop
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2015-05-04T15:07:46Z ggole_ is now known as ggole
2015-05-04T15:08:39Z Shinmera: specbot is gone :(
2015-05-04T15:08:51Z Shinmera: Colleen: do clhs loop
2015-05-04T15:08:52Z Colleen: Macro LOOP http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm
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2015-05-04T15:47:06Z francogrex: hi its it possible to format 1.0059078d7 to integer using format ?
2015-05-04T15:48:01Z nyef: Pass it through FLOOR first?
2015-05-04T15:48:11Z pjb: (format nil "~,0F" 1.0059078d7) --> "10059078."
2015-05-04T15:48:26Z axion: though that's not an integer
2015-05-04T15:48:29Z pjb: Notice that this syntax is an integer syntax in CL!
2015-05-04T15:48:32Z pjb: It is.
2015-05-04T15:48:33Z francogrex: yes the .
2015-05-04T15:48:40Z axion: it's a string representation
2015-05-04T15:48:47Z pjb: (type-of 10059078.) --> (integer 0 1152921504606846975)
2015-05-04T15:49:00Z pjb: axion: notice the first argument to format.
2015-05-04T15:49:15Z axion: yeah?
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2015-05-04T15:49:42Z francogrex: yes well not ok . must go
2015-05-04T15:51:16Z pjb: format is not omnipotent by itself. You may use ~/
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2015-05-04T15:51:54Z francogrex: yes or floor first...
2015-05-04T15:52:30Z Ralt: hello
2015-05-04T15:52:38Z pjb: kitty
2015-05-04T15:52:54Z Ralt: I have a hard time googling it, but I haven't found any git client written in lisp. Is there any that I don't know of?
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2015-05-04T15:53:09Z pjb: Not yet.
2015-05-04T15:53:21Z Ralt: i.e. a client that can pull/push/fetch/commit/merge/etc.
2015-05-04T15:53:27Z Ralt: damn.
2015-05-04T15:54:13Z Ralt: I guess using libgit2 bindings is the fastest way
2015-05-04T15:55:01Z scymtym_: Ralt: have you seen https://github.com/russell/cl-git?
2015-05-04T15:55:42Z Ralt: scymtym_: I haven't
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2015-05-04T15:57:56Z Ralt: scymtym_: thanks
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2015-05-04T16:50:47Z shka: hello
2015-05-04T16:51:08Z shka: i need any advice
2015-05-04T16:51:41Z shka: i need to substitute a single element in the tree with multiple elements (on after another)
2015-05-04T16:52:05Z shka: is there any way to do that with standard library os i need to manually walk over tree?
2015-05-04T16:52:14Z shka: *or
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2015-05-04T17:00:47Z pjb: clhs subst
2015-05-04T17:02:10Z shka: pjb: how i can use subst to replace single element with multiple?
2015-05-04T17:02:18Z shka: i know what does it do
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2015-05-04T17:03:22Z pjb: shka: I see.  You will have to write your own.  Notice that subst uses the cons tree, so there's no meaning to "multiple".
2015-05-04T17:03:41Z shka: that's fine
2015-05-04T17:03:50Z shka: it is not complicated
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2015-05-04T17:08:21Z drmeister: There is no FIND-TYPE.  How do I get the description of a type defined with DEFTYPE?
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2015-05-04T17:10:21Z Bike: nothing standard
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2015-05-04T17:14:49Z dlowe: (clasp-ext:find-type) should fix your problem
2015-05-04T17:15:03Z dlowe: you know, once it's written.
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2015-05-04T17:19:15Z Bike: on ccl you can do ccl::type-expand, on sbcl there's sb-ext:typexpand
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2015-05-04T17:19:48Z dlowe: ccl's name seems superior.
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2015-05-04T17:25:48Z shka: i really should write macro for tree walking
2015-05-04T17:25:55Z shka: i do this far to often
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2015-05-04T17:29:56Z jasom: shka: why macro and not function?
2015-05-04T17:30:11Z shka: jasom: macro to define functions
2015-05-04T17:31:16Z shka: you know: on branch do that, on leaf do that
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2015-05-04T17:32:28Z shka: anyway
2015-05-04T17:32:29Z shka: done
2015-05-04T17:33:09Z shka: i better start thinking about that macro
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2015-05-04T17:42:06Z nyef: shka: Why a macro? Surely that'd be a function that takes parameters for leaf-action and branch-action?
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2015-05-04T17:45:11Z drmeister: For clasp, something similar to (find-type 'core::index) is:    (get-sysprop 'core::index 'core::deftype-form)
2015-05-04T17:45:26Z drmeister: -->  (DEFTYPE INDEX NIL '(INTEGER 0 -1))
2015-05-04T17:45:30Z drmeister: There's my problem.
2015-05-04T17:45:43Z Bike: i don't think implementations actually preserve the whole thing all the time
2015-05-04T17:45:49Z drmeister: I'm switching to 63bit FIXNUMs  - and I'm not... quite... there yet.
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2015-05-04T17:46:21Z shka: nyef: however, what if i want to check something before?
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2015-05-04T17:47:20Z shka: also, how can i use acumulator?
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2015-05-04T17:47:59Z shka: i'm not any expert but it seems to be the case where you really want to write that macro
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2015-05-04T17:57:09Z Shinmera: In case anyone has Arch and wants to try out clasp: There's now packages on the AUR that should build things for you. See externals-clasp-git and clasp-git.
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2015-05-04T18:06:18Z shka: Shinmera: thank you :-)
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2015-05-04T18:15:46Z pjb: shka: see https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/Nno1qbWeP2M/DemL4JflZgwJ  and https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/AJtPdGwrsrc/T6y_TSWl70AJ
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2015-05-04T18:26:08Z shka: pjb: however, it would require using push instead of cons
2015-05-04T18:26:34Z shka: overall, i consider this to be somewhat more complicated
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2015-05-04T18:28:18Z shka: http://paste.lisp.org/display/147832
2015-05-04T18:28:30Z shka: seriously, it is everything i need at the moment ;-)
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2015-05-04T22:22:48Z trilakin: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2015-05-05T00:35:11Z odds: Hey guys, I have racket installed on my OS X install but I forget which command line options to use to run the full racket environment. Anyone help me out?
2015-05-05T00:36:01Z odds: Longlius: >mfw
2015-05-05T00:36:13Z Longlius: oh hi odds
2015-05-05T00:36:27Z odds: Hey buddy, can u answer my question?
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2015-05-05T00:36:56Z Longlius: odds: drracket
2015-05-05T00:38:12Z odds: Ye.
2015-05-05T00:38:37Z odds: I found it: racket -il xrepl
2015-05-05T00:38:41Z odds: Or (require xrepl)
2015-05-05T00:38:44Z pillton: Longlius: This channel is for common lisp. You are better off asking the question in #scheme or #racket.
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2015-05-05T00:39:01Z odds: Oh yea, I need to go back to #racket.
2015-05-05T00:39:05Z Longlius: yeah odds
2015-05-05T00:39:22Z Longlius: get your scheme rubbish out of here
2015-05-05T00:39:25Z Longlius: lispniks only
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2015-05-05T00:40:22Z odds: Longlius: O-ok... xD
2015-05-05T00:40:30Z Longlius: (not really. all lisp is love all lisp is life)
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2015-05-05T00:40:38Z odds: Haha, I only know Racket.
2015-05-05T00:40:41Z odds: But I will restrain myself.
2015-05-05T00:40:53Z odds: So longggg!!
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2015-05-05T00:41:08Z pillton: Longlius: Sorry, that message was for odds.
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2015-05-05T00:43:20Z Longlius: pillton: it's cool. odds and I are both ops in a channel over on rizon, so I guess he saw me here and figured he'd ask someone he knew
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2015-05-05T00:43:39Z blackwolf: I can't find anything in the ASDF manual that will return the registry config after asdf's read all the .conf files. is there any way to do that?
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2015-05-05T00:53:52Z viaken: What do you folks think about picolisp?
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2015-05-05T00:56:00Z Longlius: viaken: it's neat, but I prefer something like Forth if I'm working that close to the metal
2015-05-05T01:00:00Z viaken: Interesting
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2015-05-05T01:04:47Z kephra: Longlius, there is no forth close to the metal anymore - Forth as an operating system did not manage to step from 16bit to 32bit pointers
2015-05-05T01:05:23Z kephra: only exceptions are systems like VolX4th, that was used by CuBase for Atari, Amiga and early PC
2015-05-05T01:05:28Z nyef: kephra: Bullshit.
2015-05-05T01:05:47Z Longlius: there's plenty of 32-bit forth implementations
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2015-05-05T01:06:36Z nyef: A "bare metal" 32-bit forth implementation is a not-unheard-of hobbyist project. And then there's the various OpenFirmware-style systems...
2015-05-05T01:06:49Z scoofy: technically, could be done
2015-05-05T01:07:25Z scoofy: and there are some 32 bit forths
2015-05-05T01:07:49Z Longlius: if I have a 32-bit machine though, I'm probably not going to be writing anything like forth though. I'll be using a full OS like GNU/Linux
2015-05-05T01:09:14Z Longlius: for an 8-bit microcontroller like the 68HC11 (which I worked with during my undergrad) though, forth is quite nice to have
2015-05-05T01:15:13Z nyef: If I have a 32-bit machine that I'm bringing up from scratch? I'll grab Forth immediately.
2015-05-05T01:15:44Z nyef: If I'm actually looking to do something useful quickly, then I may just grab Linux.
2015-05-05T01:15:47Z nyef: It's a bit situational.
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2015-05-05T01:17:41Z Longlius: I've never really had to bring a 32-bit machine up from scratch, but if I did, I'd probably grab forth
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2015-05-05T01:23:30Z cluck: what "no forth on baremetal" foolishness is this?! http://www.ultratechnology.com/chips.htm
2015-05-05T01:24:22Z kephra: cluck, and how many people do you know in real life, who have seen one of those chips?
2015-05-05T01:24:49Z Longlius: how many people do you know in real life who have seen any microprocessor?
2015-05-05T01:26:05Z Longlius: appeals to real life aren't really indicative of anything
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2015-05-05T01:27:33Z cluck: kephra: Chuck Moore apparently makes a nice living out of them so it can't be too few given the prices i've heard about (and he's just one person on that market, although a well reputed one)
2015-05-05T01:29:36Z kephra: just my $.02 - Forth had been a viable platform in the 70s and 80s - but now its more a thing of the past.
2015-05-05T01:29:54Z kephra: unlike Lisp, where killer applications (EMACS, AutoCAD) kept it alive
2015-05-05T01:29:55Z cluck: Longlius: true, most people never heard of the L4 kernel and odds are they have it running somewhere in their house
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2015-05-05T01:30:45Z nyef: "Lisp had been a viable platform in the 70s and 80s - but now its more a thing of the past, unlike Forth, where killer applications (OpenFirmware) kept it alive."
2015-05-05T01:31:22Z nyef: Honestly, just about any post-PCI-transition, pre-EFI Mac has Forth in it.
2015-05-05T01:31:35Z nyef: The OLPC has Forth in it.
2015-05-05T01:32:09Z cluck: yeah, openfirmware and some efi implementations are forth based
2015-05-05T01:32:35Z kephra: but its a difference - in the 80s every music studio had a Forth system: it was called Steinberg CuBase
2015-05-05T01:32:52Z nyef: These days, they have Macs instead.
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2015-05-05T01:33:20Z kephra: i see no longer any applications that need to take control over the complete machine, bare metal, to write their own OS
2015-05-05T01:33:33Z kephra: ... outside embedded controllers
2015-05-05T01:33:51Z nyef: ... ever see a 32-bit embedded controller programmed in Forth?
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2015-05-05T01:38:17Z kephra: btw seriously, just code a CPS and drop it into CFA, and you have a Lisp ;-)
2015-05-05T01:39:01Z kephra: thats the most unusual and best feature of the language - you can code your own bytecode interpreter
2015-05-05T01:39:21Z cluck: i suspect he's just bummed there aren't any canon cats around anymore, failing to realize existing "embedded systems" have more code, take in more io and churn more data than any m68k ever could dream of
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2015-05-05T01:44:58Z Petit_Dejeuner_: canon cats? Those type writer things?
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2015-05-05T01:48:20Z quazimod1: pjb: hi pascal, are you around?
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2015-05-05T01:50:30Z quazimod1: pjb: one time ago you showed me an image of a fashion parade vs some sort of industrial waste/nuclear station thing
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2015-05-05T01:50:43Z quazimod1: you said you were in teh business of hte latter, not the former
2015-05-05T01:50:56Z quazimod1: do you still have that image?
2015-05-05T01:51:59Z quazimod1: natohuatohu
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2015-05-05T02:57:30Z akkad: CL is probably one of the easiest things to sneak in, other than Golang. binaries make a big difference
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2015-05-05T03:01:19Z vr-rm: Hey guys, this may have been mentioned before, but the big Symbolics blow-out is currently going on on ebay:
2015-05-05T03:01:20Z vr-rm: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Symbolics-MacIvory-model-3-co-processor-in-Apple-Mac-Quadra-700-with-Genera-8-3-/111662317576?
2015-05-05T03:01:45Z akkad: I just run it on my alpha
2015-05-05T03:01:47Z nyef: Now if only it was a TI machine instead... d-:
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2015-05-05T03:02:33Z akkad: nubus?
2015-05-05T03:02:42Z akkad: I think I've got one of those floating around
2015-05-05T03:03:31Z vr-rm: two Ivory model 3s and two model two and some 36xx bords will be auctioned in the next few days. (according to symbolics-dks)
2015-05-05T03:03:51Z nyef: akkad: The microExplorer?
2015-05-05T03:04:12Z akkad: I'd have to look
2015-05-05T03:04:18Z nyef: Hrm.
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2015-05-05T03:04:40Z nyef: If you've got the software that goes with it as well, that would be rather interesting.
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2015-05-05T03:05:25Z nyef: Heck, even if you JUST have the software for it, but it's a complete set of install images, Quadrescence would probably like a copy.
2015-05-05T03:05:40Z Quadrescence: copy of what!
2015-05-05T03:06:03Z nyef: mX software. Entirely hypothetical at this point.
2015-05-05T03:06:11Z Quadrescence: Sounds GREAT!
2015-05-05T03:06:11Z vr-rm: Shockingly (to me) there's an emulator of the microExplorer written entirely in Lisp that actually boot the old disk images: meroku
2015-05-05T03:06:32Z nyef: vr-rm: Wrong! meroku was written in C. Nevermore is the one that's in Lisp.
2015-05-05T03:06:48Z Quadrescence: I wonder what great, fantastic person wrote Nevermore.
2015-05-05T03:06:52Z nyef: And they're Explorer I emulators, not microExplorer emulators.
2015-05-05T03:06:56Z vr-rm: http://www.unlambda.com/meroko/
2015-05-05T03:06:56Z nyef: Quadrescence: Hah!
2015-05-05T03:08:23Z nyef: I find the Nevermore code to be rather crude in its style, as though it was the first serious Lisp project written by its author.
2015-05-05T03:08:47Z vr-rm: re: microexplorer vs explorer I think you're right, TI Explorer only.
2015-05-05T03:09:20Z Quadrescence: I have a good lead on mX full software & hardware. Just need to do the roadtrip one of these days.
2015-05-05T03:09:45Z nyef: Quadrescence: An extra mX board?
2015-05-05T03:09:59Z Quadrescence: Yes
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2015-05-05T03:10:25Z nyef: About how much?
2015-05-05T03:10:49Z Quadrescence: How much [?]?
2015-05-05T03:11:16Z nyef: (This is not a prelude to trying to snipe it, it's a prelude to evaluating if I want to offer to split the cost for the spare mX and a copy of the software.)
2015-05-05T03:11:31Z Quadrescence: I think I can get it at no cost.
2015-05-05T03:11:42Z nyef: Ah, nice.
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2015-05-05T03:12:00Z Quadrescence: If I do have the board, it might need to be fixed though. I think there's a broken pin. Can you fix that junk?
2015-05-05T03:12:27Z vr-rm: Nevermore (the lisp) and  Meroku (the c) are both brutish.  But an incredible feat or reverse engineering.
2015-05-05T03:12:31Z nyef: Maybe.
2015-05-05T03:13:08Z Quadrescence: nyef, If you want a board, I will have two. I usually like to have two, but to someone Of Your Stature, I may be able to part with one.
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2015-05-05T03:13:18Z Quadrescence: But I will cross that bridge when I have two.
2015-05-05T03:13:45Z nyef: Quadrescence: Sounds good. For something that rare and possibly-useful, I can certainly understand wanting to have two.
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2015-05-05T03:13:52Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-05-05T03:13:56Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-05-05T03:14:15Z Quadrescence: nyef, I'd rather have one and the other in the hands of someone who might know a thing or two, than owning two and doing nothing.
2015-05-05T03:15:05Z nyef: Quadrescence: The other approach, I suppose, is a full copy of the software, and once I have the time to sit down and figure out how to hack up custom microloads some assistance in trying to get a copy of the on-chip ROM image.
2015-05-05T03:15:38Z Quadrescence: Hmm :)
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2015-05-05T03:16:59Z nyef: I'd have to think up a suitable name for a Hummingbird emulator, though.
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2015-05-05T03:17:13Z nyef: ...
2015-05-05T03:17:28Z nyef: And probably figure out how to build a Mac IIfx emulator or something like that.
2015-05-05T03:17:36Z Quadrescence: Rabbit hole.
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2015-05-05T03:17:40Z nyef: Or even possibly a Quadra emulator.
2015-05-05T03:17:47Z nyef: Yeah, that way lies the tar pit.
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2015-05-05T03:19:38Z nyef: Heh. I'm reminded of how the Explorer 3 project was using a microExplorer load band image.
2015-05-05T03:19:54Z nyef: And never emulated even ONE instruction out of it.
2015-05-05T03:20:09Z nyef: Sat and bitched for years about "oh, function calling, so hard".
2015-05-05T03:21:07Z nyef tries to remember what the predecessor project to Nevermore was called.
2015-05-05T03:21:07Z Quadrescence: :)))
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2015-05-05T03:27:26Z drmeister: Hello
2015-05-05T03:27:29Z drmeister: Hello beach
2015-05-05T03:27:40Z beach: Hello drmeister.
2015-05-05T03:28:58Z isaac_rks: hello fags
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2015-05-05T03:30:56Z nyef: Oh, right! "exploiter".
2015-05-05T03:31:11Z Quadrescence: haha
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2015-05-05T03:34:53Z nyef: Man, I haven't thought about some of this stuff in ages. (-:
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2015-05-05T03:35:58Z nyef: Now it's all SBCL this and PostgreSQL that and Linux on SGI Origin 350 the other...
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2015-05-05T03:46:49Z beach: drmeister: It looks like you have a decent-sized crowd helping you with Clasp.
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2015-05-05T03:58:25Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2015-05-05T04:22:27Z axion: morning all
2015-05-05T04:27:09Z Petit_Dejeuner: Quadrescence, Thanks for the code. When I was reading about locatives, I was under the impression they were just an implementation detail of how older lisp machines represented functions. Are these two different terms or is their some kind of equivlence between them?
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2015-05-05T04:36:43Z beach: Hello axion.
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2015-05-05T04:40:08Z axion: Hi beach. How are you doing?
2015-05-05T04:40:43Z beach: axion: Fine thanks.  I am trying to come up with some terminology...
2015-05-05T04:40:49Z axion: I finally fixed a memory leak that has been plaguing me for about 2 weeks.
2015-05-05T04:40:57Z beach: Congratulations.
2015-05-05T04:41:10Z nyef: Memory leaks suck.
2015-05-05T04:41:13Z axion: Thanks, what kind of terminology?
2015-05-05T04:41:49Z beach: The SICL compiler creates code that is independent of any global environment.  Then, in a separate phase, that code is "linked" to a particular environment.
2015-05-05T04:42:05Z axion: Yes especially when dealing with lots of memory to begin with as such with a game. Restarting image 100 times/day was getting old.
2015-05-05T04:42:08Z beach: But I don't like "linked" and I need a name for that "independent" code.
2015-05-05T04:42:35Z nyef: "embedded" in a particular environment?
2015-05-05T04:42:48Z beach: That's a possibility.
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2015-05-05T04:43:08Z beach: What about the contrary?
2015-05-05T04:43:38Z nyef: "context-free"?
2015-05-05T04:43:51Z nyef: (Okay, not quite serious there.)
2015-05-05T04:43:57Z beach: Yeah, not great.
2015-05-05T04:44:18Z beach: Maybe loose and tied?
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2015-05-05T04:44:27Z nyef: Like shoelaces?
2015-05-05T04:44:42Z beach: Yeah.
2015-05-05T04:45:10Z beach: OK, I'll check the synonyms for something with that meaning but better-sounding.
2015-05-05T04:45:34Z nyef: How about "loaded" into an environment?
2015-05-05T04:45:53Z beach: The word "loaded" is, er, loaded.
2015-05-05T04:46:01Z beach: cf LOAD.
2015-05-05T04:46:11Z nyef: In a way, it's OVERLOADED. d-:
2015-05-05T04:48:33Z pillton: No one likes loaded questions.
2015-05-05T04:48:47Z nyef: A lot of people like loaded baked potatoes.
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2015-05-05T04:50:32Z pillton: Environment independent code? EIC?
2015-05-05T04:51:14Z beach: I prefer short, real, and catchy words.
2015-05-05T04:51:16Z pinterface haphazardly suggests "raw" and "baked", just to continue the potato analogy.
2015-05-05T04:51:45Z beach: pinterface: Yeah, that's more in line with what I am looking for.
2015-05-05T04:52:16Z beach: But I think I'll go for untied/tied.  Then I have a verb to: to tie.
2015-05-05T04:52:56Z beach: So now, EVAL = COMPILE + TIE.
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2015-05-05T04:55:09Z beach: The reason I need this is that for bootstrapping purposes, code can be compiled in one environment and then tied to a different one.
2015-05-05T04:55:13Z axion: loose/tight?
2015-05-05T04:55:44Z beach: Yeah, I suggested loose a bit earlier.
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2015-05-05T04:56:00Z beach: But I don't quite like the negative connotation.
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2015-05-05T04:57:46Z beach: It doesn't matter that much.  I mean, it can easily be change with a global replace if something better pops up.  So for now, I'll go for "untied", "tied", and "to tie".
2015-05-05T04:57:54Z pillton: compile + couple?
2015-05-05T04:58:13Z beach: I considered that.
2015-05-05T04:58:19Z pinterface: Tie/tied/etc. certainly flow off the tongue nicely.
2015-05-05T04:58:23Z beach: "uncoupled" is a bit too long.
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2015-05-05T04:59:06Z pillton: You get alliteration with compile + couple. It will sell better. :)
2015-05-05T04:59:15Z beach: Nice! :)
2015-05-05T04:59:39Z beach: And doing both would be cumpile
2015-05-05T05:00:07Z beach: or comple.
2015-05-05T05:00:42Z nyef: The latter rather than the former, I hope?
2015-05-05T05:00:42Z pillton: Hmm.. Not sure about that. (distance "cumpile" "crumble") => :small.
2015-05-05T05:01:33Z nyef: I keep parsing cumpile with a hyphen between the m and the p.
2015-05-05T05:01:49Z beach: Heh!
2015-05-05T05:02:00Z beach: Let's not go for that.
2015-05-05T05:02:27Z beach: People will think it's part of Climacs.
2015-05-05T05:02:42Z axion: Yeah, especially if it was preceded by a cumload
2015-05-05T05:02:47Z nyef: What was that about a "tradition of names which make marketing shudder"?
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2015-05-05T05:03:59Z beach: The "market" quickly gets used to strange names it seems.  "Chaosnet" comes to mind, but there are others that I can't remember now.
2015-05-05T05:04:07Z pinterface: Man, and all I could come up with is that "tie" must produce some "knotted" state somehow.
2015-05-05T05:04:16Z pinterface is terrible at punning tonight.
2015-05-05T05:06:26Z beach: Now I have to rewrite the chapter on bootstrapping in the SICL specification, because when I wrote it, I didn't have first-class global environments.
2015-05-05T05:07:08Z beach: In fact, part of the reason I had to invent first-class global environments was that bootstrapping became such a mess without them.
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2015-05-05T05:44:31Z drmeister: Hey beach - I fixed a bunch of problems in clasp related to now illegal casts and 63bit fixnums.
2015-05-05T05:44:40Z beach: Excellent!
2015-05-05T05:45:28Z drmeister: One consequence was I had to take out a bunch of ASSERTs for NULL smart_ptr's.   FIXNUM zero (0) is now equal to NULL 0x0000000000
2015-05-05T05:45:52Z drmeister: No matter.
2015-05-05T05:46:10Z beach: Oh, I had a question about smart pointers.
2015-05-05T05:46:23Z drmeister: I'm going to switch to immediate FIXNUMs right away.
2015-05-05T05:46:29Z drmeister: Sure - what's up?
2015-05-05T05:46:31Z beach: How big are they, and what do they contain?
2015-05-05T05:46:39Z drmeister: 64bits.
2015-05-05T05:47:01Z drmeister: They are a struct that contains a single 64bit word on 64bit machines.
2015-05-05T05:47:18Z drmeister: No virtual functions, no vtable.
2015-05-05T05:47:21Z beach: And what does the word contain?
2015-05-05T05:47:33Z drmeister: 64bits of goodness.
2015-05-05T05:47:40Z drmeister: The low three bits are the tag.
2015-05-05T05:47:50Z drmeister: The rest is pointer or fixnum.
2015-05-05T05:48:12Z beach: So it's a tagged pointer.  What makes it smart then?
2015-05-05T05:48:48Z drmeister: That it does the tagging and untagging/dereferencing using methods.
2015-05-05T05:49:10Z drmeister: But it's more of a hold-over from when I used reference counting shared_ptr
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2015-05-05T05:49:51Z beach: I am not talking Clasp-specific stuff here.  I am asking about C++ smart pointers and what makes them smart.
2015-05-05T05:50:00Z drmeister: I made sure that I did all pointer access through this pointer class because I planned down the road (now) to switch to tagged pointers.
2015-05-05T05:50:53Z drmeister: I guess compared to raw pointers they are smart.
2015-05-05T05:51:46Z beach: Wow.
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2015-05-05T05:52:23Z drmeister: It's an abstract class that behaves like a pointer but can do extra work to display more complex behavior than raw pointers.
2015-05-05T05:53:29Z drmeister: The idea is that you specialize them on different types and they can have complex behavior because you can overload the dereferencing operators.
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2015-05-05T05:53:51Z beach: Got it.  Thanks.
2015-05-05T05:54:23Z drmeister: They came in handy for me because if I had used raw pointers then implementing tagging/untagging-dereferencing would have required massive changes to the code.
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2015-05-05T05:55:06Z drmeister: But yeah - slightly_less_stupid_ptr would be more apropos.
2015-05-05T05:55:17Z pillton: drmeister: Aren't they supposed to indicate the owner of the memory occupied by the object as well ?
2015-05-05T05:55:34Z pillton: drmeister: Is your smart pointer built for Clasp?
2015-05-05T05:55:54Z drmeister: Yes, now it's built for Clasp.
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2015-05-05T05:56:00Z akkad: ecl support socket in ql? https://gist.github.com/97484072cf95716c7aca
2015-05-05T05:56:05Z pillton: Ok. Nevermind what I said then.
2015-05-05T05:56:56Z pillton: akkad: Are you asking a question?
2015-05-05T05:57:11Z akkad: </interrogative>
2015-05-05T05:57:13Z akkad: yes
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2015-05-05T05:58:41Z pillton: Are you looking for a library which supports sockets that works in ECL?
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2015-05-05T05:59:48Z akkad: assuming that is the problem the error above reflects.
2015-05-05T06:00:21Z pillton: What error? I only see the banner printed by ECL.
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2015-05-05T06:04:28Z akkad: sorry, gist got truncated. https://gist.github.com/5bf865124874bc44f9f1
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2015-05-05T06:08:50Z pillton: akkad: I can't help with you that at present sorry. I remember having trouble with ASDF and ECL's prebuilt system stuff in the past. This was a long time ago though.
2015-05-05T06:09:21Z pillton: akkad: The mailing list is quite active at present.
2015-05-05T06:09:50Z pillton: akkad: I suggest reducing this problem down to something simple that people can execute themselves.
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2015-05-05T06:11:29Z akkad: git clone http://github.com/ober/cloudtrail-cl && cd cloudtrail-cl && cat delivery.lisp|ecl
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2015-05-05T06:12:33Z pillton: Simple as in, the minimum amount of code possible to reproduce your problem.
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2015-05-05T06:16:29Z akkad: agreed. thanks
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2015-05-05T06:18:27Z akkad: seems that just loading ql is sufficient to trigger it
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2015-05-05T07:46:25Z Shinmera: axion: So what was the cause of your memory leak?
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2015-05-05T07:49:53Z axion: Shinmera: Well I was keeping geometry data around in a slot even after uploading it to the GPU at load-time. However the instance *special* containing that slot was NIL'd. Why this was not being detected by the GC is beyond me, but it's fixed by not even storing it in the slot to begin with.
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2015-05-05T07:54:01Z Shinmera: Huh.
2015-05-05T07:54:35Z jackdaniel: akkad: are you using ecl-11.1.1? it's pretty old
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2015-05-05T07:55:33Z jackdaniel: there were releases in 2012, 2013 and 2015 in between
2015-05-05T07:56:11Z axion: Yeah it baffles me since there is no reference to the previous several hundred MB data each run
2015-05-05T07:56:48Z axion: Somehow the GC thinks it shouldnt clear it, or possibly gives it low priority for some reason, but not enough priority when restarting the game a few times in a short period of time
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2015-05-05T07:57:19Z axion: Now that I found the cause and fixed it, I'm even more confused ha
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2015-05-05T08:01:37Z jackdaniel: akkad: http://ix.io/ihS
2015-05-05T08:01:44Z jackdaniel: it loads fine
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2015-05-05T08:58:05Z zacts: what is the main use case for ECL versus SBCL?
2015-05-05T08:58:42Z Shinmera: probably its namesake.
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2015-05-05T09:00:14Z H4ns: zacts: ECL can compile to C.  that creates the hope that it could be used as CL implementation to be used on phones.
2015-05-05T09:00:24Z zacts: oh I see
2015-05-05T09:00:38Z zacts: so it's kind of like the CL equivalent to chicken scheme
2015-05-05T09:00:45Z H4ns: zacts: if you will
2015-05-05T09:01:09Z zacts: H4ns: although, I heard that SBCL is being ported to android?
2015-05-05T09:01:11Z H4ns: zacts: "E" stands for embeddable
2015-05-05T09:01:21Z zacts: so perhaps SBCL will run on android phones too?
2015-05-05T09:01:29Z Shinmera: zacts: SBCL doesn't have a .so version, so you need a subprocess to run it from an app, which is messy.
2015-05-05T09:01:30Z H4ns: zacts: perhaps.  as would clozure cl
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2015-05-05T09:01:38Z zacts: ok
2015-05-05T09:02:37Z Shinmera: Though sbcl.so is something that people want to work on, so it will probably be available some day.
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2015-05-05T09:14:55Z loke: Shinmera: note that running it in the same process as another dynamic language may not be feasible though
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2015-05-05T09:15:24Z loke: I don't don't about Dalvik or ART, but with if SBCL and the JVM runs in the same process, it will crash because both of them catch and act on SEGV
2015-05-05T09:16:48Z Shinmera: I'm well aware.
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2015-05-05T09:32:49Z schjetne: I might be approaching the problem from the wrong end, but is there a way to drop into the debugger and view the stack right before the last function returns? I have a case of works on my machine(tm) and while I can see what goes wrong in the debugger, I'd like to see what happens when it goes right without manually walking a lot of SBCL implementation code.
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2015-05-05T09:35:06Z schjetne: Step is probably the right tool for the job here
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2015-05-05T09:36:09Z H4ns: schjetne: trace :break does not help?
2015-05-05T09:36:26Z Shinmera: You can also try using dissect to get an inspectable stack trace.
2015-05-05T09:36:37Z Shinmera: http://shinmera.github.io/dissect/
2015-05-05T09:36:44Z H4ns: schjetne: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Function-Tracing
2015-05-05T09:37:36Z schjetne: Shinmera: sounds exactly like what I need
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2015-05-05T09:38:09Z schjetne: H4ns: thanks, I should have gone straight to the SBCL manual, they would of course have more in this department than the hyperspec
2015-05-05T09:39:01Z Shinmera should get around to seeing about supporting LispWorks and Clasp.
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2015-05-05T10:22:08Z jackdaniel: zacts: one of ECL distinct features is that you can embed C in lisp and vice versa, therefore you can attach ecl w/o hussel to your C/other-language-with-sane-FFI/ as shared module
2015-05-05T10:22:25Z jackdaniel: something like guile for gnu project with it's scheme language inside
2015-05-05T10:23:20Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: namesake? could you kindly elaborate?
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2015-05-05T10:38:30Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: The E in ECL stands for Embeddable.
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2015-05-05T10:44:51Z jackdaniel: I'm aware of this expansion, yet I wasn't sure what do you mean - Steel Bank doesn't say much about SBCL usecase, so it wasn't clear to me
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2015-05-05T11:30:08Z lieven: Steel Bank is a calque on Carnegie Mellon. SBCL is a fork from CMUCL.
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2015-05-05T11:47:32Z Ukari: When I enter "()" in emacs lisp-mode,if i delete one of "(" or ")",both of them will disappear.But sometimes I want to input "()" to surround the code which has been existed
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2015-05-05T11:50:04Z schjetne: Ukari: are you using paredit?
2015-05-05T11:50:46Z Ukari: schjetne:seems to be not
2015-05-05T11:51:56Z schjetne: Because I don't think stock Emacs does that
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2015-05-05T11:52:41Z schjetne: What does your mode line show?
2015-05-05T11:52:42Z Ukari: I use this conf https://github.com/purcell/emacs.d
2015-05-05T11:53:22Z schjetne: I'd really rather not read all of that
2015-05-05T11:53:33Z Ukari: not the lisp-mode,it is slime-mode
2015-05-05T11:53:54Z schjetne: List all the modes in your buffer
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2015-05-05T11:54:59Z schjetne: Better yet, position the point to where you do the delete, then hit C-h c and the delete button
2015-05-05T11:55:06Z schjetne: And tell us what you see in the echo area
2015-05-05T11:56:38Z Ukari: schjetne:DEL(translated from <backspace>) runs the command paredit-backward-delete
2015-05-05T11:56:51Z schjetne: Ah, you are running paredit
2015-05-05T11:57:23Z schjetne: Just do a paredit-forward-slurp-sexp to wrap your expression in parens
2015-05-05T11:57:24Z Ukari: schjetne:sorry i don't know i use it before
2015-05-05T11:57:38Z schjetne: That's C-<rightarrow>
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2015-05-05T11:59:02Z schjetne: Ukari: learn how to use paredit by typing C-h f paredit-mode <RET>
2015-05-05T11:59:44Z schjetne: In the future, you should probably ask Emacs questions in #emacs and only Lisp questions here
2015-05-05T11:59:51Z Xach: i found the one-page cheat sheet for paredit quite helpful
2015-05-05T11:59:51Z minion: Xach, memo from madnificent: Related to the docker story: I defined a docker instance for hosting common lisp webservices.  See https://registry.hub.docker.com/u/madnificent/lisp-webservice/
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2015-05-05T12:00:01Z Shinmera: Ukari: Or use http://danmidwood.com/content/2014/11/21/animated-paredit.html
2015-05-05T12:00:07Z Ukari: schjetne:ok,thanks
2015-05-05T12:00:49Z Shinmera: What are people lisping about nowadays? Any new interesting projects?
2015-05-05T12:01:12Z schjetne: Shinmera: awesome resource!
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2015-05-05T12:04:53Z nyef: Shinmera: Most of my lisping has been for work recently, with my major non-work project being trying to get some hardware to run Linux so that I can use it as an SBCL build box.
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2015-05-05T12:06:02Z Shinmera: nyef: Can you share any specifics about your work lisping?
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2015-05-05T12:06:33Z SAL9000: Shinmera: might be just me, but quite a few of those GIFs seem to be broken
2015-05-05T12:07:02Z Shinmera: SAL9000: They all work for me. Check your browser console.
2015-05-05T12:07:16Z nyef: It's a pretty basic setup in some ways. An API server that communicates via JSON over HTTP. Hunchentoot, ST-JSON, Postmodern, and so on.
2015-05-05T12:07:26Z SAL9000: Ah, never mind, refreshing helped. Strange.
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2015-05-05T12:08:01Z Shinmera: nyef: I have to do something similar for my own job (CL too!) next.
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2015-05-05T12:09:20Z nyef: One thing that we've found is that the max_connections parameter on the database is a scaling limit... and that the version of hunchentoot we're using doesn't scale will on the default taskmaster.
2015-05-05T12:09:50Z Shinmera: I hope you're using a cache in front of hunchentoot?
2015-05-05T12:10:46Z nyef: Haven't really figured out how to cache most of the data. /-:
2015-05-05T12:10:56Z Shinmera: Ah.
2015-05-05T12:12:41Z Shinmera: The more specific version of my task is that we need to deliver sensor data to the web-page that then visualises it. Since there's however just a huge lot (tens of megabytes) downloading the entire file at once would give rather unfortunate load times, so I have to figure out how to stream the data efficiently.
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2015-05-05T12:13:32Z SAL9000: Does all of the data need to be visible at all times?
2015-05-05T12:13:56Z Shinmera: SAL9000: No, it's essentially an animation.
2015-05-05T12:14:03Z SAL9000: Real-time?
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2015-05-05T12:14:27Z Shinmera: The amount of frames depends on the recording, but playback should be real-time, yes.
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2015-05-05T12:14:58Z SAL9000: Sounds like the way to go might be server-side rendering + existing video-streaming solutions
2015-05-05T12:15:08Z Shinmera: No, it's 3D data.
2015-05-05T12:15:11Z SAL9000: ...Ah.
2015-05-05T12:15:45Z Shinmera: Either way, I'm sure I can figure something out. The trick will mostly be figuring out how many frames to deliver for each async request.
2015-05-05T12:16:06Z Shinmera: Or to use websockets, though I'm not favourable towards that.
2015-05-05T12:16:28Z nyef: ... Make it a parameter on the request?
2015-05-05T12:16:40Z SAL9000: perhaps start from some default value, then adjust based on the time between requests?
2015-05-05T12:16:59Z Shinmera: SAL9000: Yeah, most likely. But I'll know better once I can actually test it :)
2015-05-05T12:17:02Z nyef: That way, you can write the lisp code, and push the decision onto the client side.
2015-05-05T12:17:13Z Shinmera: nyef: Yes, that's the plan.
2015-05-05T12:17:33Z nyef: ... But, as SAL9000 says, have a default as well. (-:
2015-05-05T12:17:40Z SAL9000: Unless you're using websockets, you're pretty much reimplementing bits of TCP
2015-05-05T12:18:12Z Shinmera should get around to reading the TCP spec some day
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2015-05-05T12:18:45Z SAL9000: literature on TCP's slow-start system may be useful, although outdated given today's network infra
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2015-05-05T12:20:08Z pjb: quazimodo: nope. it was a random picture found with google image.
2015-05-05T12:20:10Z nyef: Don't forget some of the interesting stuff that Teclo does with the TCP protocol.
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2015-05-05T12:21:27Z nyef has just figured out why he's seeing PCI resource conflicts between separate buses in the same system.
2015-05-05T12:21:55Z SAL9000: Shinmera: an oversimplified view of TCP congestion control: while no errors, exponential growth; after the first error, additive growth, after 3 errors, stop, reset to the speed when the first error appeared.
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2015-05-05T12:22:50Z SAL9000: then additive growth again. If 5 errors, reset to default speed and exponential growth again.
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2015-05-05T12:27:44Z pjb: quazimod1: nope. it was a random picture found with google image.
2015-05-05T12:28:44Z Shinmera: SAL9000: I'll take a look.
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2015-05-05T12:42:08Z pjb: zacts: gcc -o your-program your-program.o -lecl
2015-05-05T12:44:19Z pjb: schjetne: break is the most conforming.  Otherwise your implementation may provide some extension in the arguments to trace.
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2015-05-05T12:47:37Z pjb: Ukari: use M-( to wrap the following sexp in parentheses.
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2015-05-05T13:01:49Z drmeister: nyef: Hello.
2015-05-05T13:01:54Z drmeister: nyef:  On calling conventions - is this correct?   SBCL passes some arguments in registers and the rest on the stack.  In non-trivial cases (required + optional arguments only) it copies all of the arguments into a special array and processes them there?
2015-05-05T13:02:09Z drmeister: nyef: For the most general call.
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2015-05-05T13:03:46Z nyef: non-trivial cases (rest and key arguments), maybe?
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2015-05-05T13:03:58Z drmeister: Yes
2015-05-05T13:04:47Z nyef: In those cases, the "more arg" (everything after the last optional) is moved into a separate blob on the stack.
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2015-05-05T13:05:58Z drmeister: I see, so you move everything after the last optional onto a separate place on the stack
2015-05-05T13:06:24Z drmeister: repeating back what you said.
2015-05-05T13:06:28Z drmeister: while I think on it.
2015-05-05T13:06:54Z nyef: There might be a shortcut where it goes directly to allocating list structure if the only use is a rest argument. It's been a little while, so my memory is hazy, and someone might have gotten clever at some point.
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2015-05-05T13:08:20Z drmeister: Thanks. I need to change the calling convention of Clasp - I'm looking for license to do it like I just described.  If I understand SBCL's approach correctly then I can implement that approach.
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2015-05-05T13:16:13Z quazimodo: pjb: remember what you searched for?
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2015-05-05T13:27:49Z pjb: quazimodo: that was probably 2 pictures too.
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2015-05-05T13:29:14Z quazimodo: pjb: lol yeah
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2015-05-05T13:30:21Z quazimodo: the industrial photograph was cool
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2015-05-05T14:06:15Z schjetne: nyef: I have a similar setup to yours at work. Have you looked at woo, the new asynchronous web server?
2015-05-05T14:07:24Z schjetne: https://github.com/fukamachi/woo
2015-05-05T14:07:31Z schjetne: Twice as fast as Node.js
2015-05-05T14:07:52Z nyef: Not yet. Right now I'm more-or-less swamped by infrastructure work not directly related to scaling out the lisp web server, but woo does look interesting.
2015-05-05T14:11:47Z schjetne: How's ST-JSON? I haven't tried that one yet. I mostly use Yason
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2015-05-05T14:15:44Z nyef: When I started using it, I did a survey of the available JSON libraries, and it was the only one that was able to express arrays, booleans, null, presence/absence of fields, and so on, without aliasing some two of the concepts.
2015-05-05T14:16:51Z nyef: I don't know if that's still the case, but I feel that any time you can't distinguish between two concepts in what amounts to a wire protocol like that, you run into cases where it is absolutely necessary to do so.
2015-05-05T14:17:56Z schjetne: Yes, I've had to use some unsightly workarounds for this myself. It's fine if you're writing both the program consuming and producing it to use a subset, but sometimes you don't have that luxury.
2015-05-05T14:18:09Z quazimodo: fork > threads!
2015-05-05T14:18:32Z nyef: A simple example: Sometimes it's important to express null separately from a non-existing field. Many class-metadata-based JSON libraries in other languages (such as Java) can't do this, both unsupplied fields and explicitly null fields get parsed as a nil, and when generating they are rendered as unsupplied even when they need to be explicitly null.
2015-05-05T14:18:55Z nyef: Or conflating the empty array with the false value?
2015-05-05T14:19:14Z quazimodo: schjetne: haskell snap's fast as fuck too
2015-05-05T14:19:20Z nyef: And then there's conflating [], null, AND false into the same concept!
2015-05-05T14:19:25Z nyef: Just... ugh!
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2015-05-05T14:19:52Z nyef: So, I went with the ONE library that had separate concepts for all of the different JSON types.
2015-05-05T14:22:06Z axion: nyef: last time i used yason, which was a while ago, you could define preferences as to how to interpret false or [] as such
2015-05-05T14:23:47Z schjetne: axion: there still is, but I still need to wrap everything dealing with booleans in functions translating between 'false and nil
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2015-05-05T14:24:34Z schjetne: I'm thinking there ought to be a metaclass for objects that can be turned into JSON, specifying a schema
2015-05-05T14:24:48Z schjetne: Of course, this is no good if you don't want a fixed schema
2015-05-05T14:25:18Z schjetne: But I'm thinking of adding something like it to my Elasticsearch library, where they do in fact have static schema
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2015-05-05T14:32:44Z protist: cl-durian is now available on quicklisp https://github.com/GordianNaught/cl-durian
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2015-05-05T14:33:16Z protist: it produces indented HTML from simple list structures
2015-05-05T14:33:33Z Xach: No it isn't.
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2015-05-05T14:33:53Z Xach: Soon, though.
2015-05-05T14:33:58Z protist: Xach: ah I just used quicklisp to get it...so I thought I tested it?
2015-05-05T14:34:18Z protist: Xach: maybe I was in the directory :p
2015-05-05T14:34:27Z Xach: protist: If it's visible via asdf, you can use ql:quickload to load it.
2015-05-05T14:34:48Z Xach: But the archive is not on the quicklisp server and someone who tries to load it will not be able to.
2015-05-05T14:34:50Z protist: Xach: ah, makes sense :)
2015-05-05T14:35:06Z Xach: I am going to make a quicklisp update today, though, so it will be available after that.
2015-05-05T14:35:27Z protist: Xach: ok :)...thank you for the work you do with quicklisp
2015-05-05T14:35:38Z Petit_Dejeuner: Yeah, it's great.
2015-05-05T14:35:43Z jdz: schjetne: then there's json-schema (http://json-schema.org)
2015-05-05T14:35:47Z ehu: Xach: in that case: you read my mail regarding the latest cl-net CVS migrations, right?
2015-05-05T14:36:00Z Xach: ehu: I read it, yes, thanks.
2015-05-05T14:36:08Z ehu: ok. just checking.
2015-05-05T14:37:19Z schjetne: jdz: yes, I've seen that one
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2015-05-05T14:37:46Z jdz: ehu: while at it -- i've migrated my project to Git a long time ago (moved to GitHub), but on c-l.net it is still using CVS and is scheduled for the upcoming migration to Git.  Is it possible to migrate the project manually?
2015-05-05T14:38:05Z jdz: ehu: i mean, remove CVS and add Git repo?
2015-05-05T14:38:20Z schjetne: Might be useful to take a JSON-aware class and output its Schema in that format for use with other software components
2015-05-05T14:38:28Z ehu: jdz: yes. that's possible. did you receive a GitLab welcome mail?
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2015-05-05T14:38:35Z jdz: ehu: yes
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2015-05-05T14:39:06Z ehu: jdz: ok. then you can create a project in the imago group yourself and push the git repo there.
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2015-05-05T14:39:22Z ehu: that's weird .
2015-05-05T14:39:27Z ehu: no imago group?
2015-05-05T14:39:28Z ehu: ah.
2015-05-05T14:40:00Z ehu: there's a group, but no projects in it.
2015-05-05T14:40:17Z ehu: so, you could create an imago project which has room for 1 git repo.
2015-05-05T14:40:28Z ehu: you can then push your git repo into the imago repository.
2015-05-05T14:40:39Z ehu: archiving the CVS repo is something I can do for you.
2015-05-05T14:40:44Z jdz: ehu: well, my project is rfc2388, and it is somehow under xcvb
2015-05-05T14:40:51Z ehu: ah.
2015-05-05T14:41:02Z ehu: that's probably because xcvb created a copy.
2015-05-05T14:41:31Z ehu: ah. heh.
2015-05-05T14:41:35Z ehu: another djz.
2015-05-05T14:41:36Z ehu: soryr,
2015-05-05T14:41:39Z ehu: sorry.
2015-05-05T14:41:44Z ehu: same procedure though.
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2015-05-05T14:41:57Z ehu: you're a group owner in GitLab for the rfc2388 group.
2015-05-05T14:42:09Z ehu: which means you can create a new project in it.
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2015-05-05T14:42:19Z ehu: I'd call that rfc2388 too.
2015-05-05T14:42:29Z jdz: OK, thanks
2015-05-05T14:42:30Z ehu: and from there, you can simply upload the git repo.
2015-05-05T14:42:42Z ehu: I'll archive the CVS repo.
2015-05-05T14:42:51Z ehu: is that something I can do right now?
2015-05-05T14:43:56Z jdz: i can't seem to be able to log in with my common-lisp.net email (jdzerins)
2015-05-05T14:44:10Z jdz: i definitely was able to log in before
2015-05-05T14:44:17Z hlavaty: protist: why is "indented HTML" a good idea?  isn't whytespace significant in some tags?
2015-05-05T14:44:29Z hlavaty: whitespace
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2015-05-05T14:45:05Z Xach: it is.
2015-05-05T14:45:23Z Xach: (significant, that is. a good idea, possibly not.)
2015-05-05T14:46:33Z protist: hlavaty: which tags?...cl-durian doesn't add whitespace to the content of innermost tagged elements so I would suspect it shouldn't be a problem
2015-05-05T14:46:35Z ehu: jdz: you changed your e-mail address.
2015-05-05T14:46:37Z ecraven: you could put the indentation iside the tags, I think
2015-05-05T14:46:54Z jdz: ehu: oh, it's my own fault, then
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2015-05-05T14:49:07Z akkad hunts for any ecl standalone binary documentation that is does not 404
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2015-05-05T14:50:06Z hlavaty: protist: i dont think your rule is good enough; simply dont do that
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2015-05-05T14:52:11Z Xach: protist: (cl-durian:html '(html ((p "This is") (i "wild") "."))) produces whitespace between "wild" and "." in the browser.
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2015-05-05T14:52:25Z Xach: protist: What project do you use cl-durian for?
2015-05-05T14:52:37Z ehu: akkad: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl-doc/tree/master what you mean?
2015-05-05T14:52:53Z Xach: I don't really understand how this is meant to be used, actually.
2015-05-05T14:53:01Z protist: Xach: I was using it for a website I was developing a while ago
2015-05-05T14:53:07Z Xach: the examples aren't enough to make me understand.
2015-05-05T14:53:17Z akkad: ehu thanks
2015-05-05T14:53:18Z Xach: (also, i have not spent much time trying)
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2015-05-05T14:53:39Z Xach: protist: If I wanted output like "<p>This is <i>wild</i>!</p>", what is the list structure?
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2015-05-05T14:58:35Z protist: Xach: that is interesting....and yeah unanticipated......`(p (cl-durian:raw "This is<i>wild</i>!"))
2015-05-05T14:59:02Z protist: Xach: hmmm...but that is kind of cheating...
2015-05-05T15:00:59Z nyef: Heh. The use of cl-durian:raw reminds me, SO MUCH, of trying to do anything clever with S-SQL.
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2015-05-05T15:01:39Z Xach: protist: ok
2015-05-05T15:01:58Z Xach: protist: this seems like a fundamental oversight to me.
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2015-05-05T15:04:59Z Xach: The example in the README is invalid, too. P may not be a child of B.
2015-05-05T15:06:16Z protist: Xach: ah....was thinking body for some reason
2015-05-05T15:06:39Z protist: Xach: I'll change the example and think on if there is a clean way to avoid raw for when tags are within a string
2015-05-05T15:06:46Z protist: Xach: or just remove indentation
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2015-05-05T15:07:41Z dlowe: seems like wasted bytes for machine generated output
2015-05-05T15:08:00Z dlowe: the whole point of generating it is so you don't have to look at it
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2015-05-05T15:10:43Z protist: Xach: examples changed from `b' to `body'
2015-05-05T15:12:31Z protist: dlowe: it is extra bytes...I think of the point more that you don't write it than that you don't read it
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2015-05-05T15:14:44Z schjetne: Has anyone rigged up ASDF to build and install binaries? Using Make feels a bit crufty, especially when going all the way and specifying all the prerequisites in two places, both the .asd and the Makefile,
2015-05-05T15:14:53Z dlowe: A seamless abstraction would remove the necessity of thinking about it at all, reading or writing.
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2015-05-05T15:15:54Z protist: dlowe: sometimes you might want to ask another person about how your page is set up...they may not speak Lisp
2015-05-05T15:16:02Z protist: dlowe: but yeah, in general you don't read it
2015-05-05T15:16:12Z dlowe: an excellent time to introduce them
2015-05-05T15:16:18Z protist: dlowe: when I was working with another guy on a project, he wanted me to at least add newlines
2015-05-05T15:16:50Z protist: dlowe: he was more of an assembly guy :p...knew Javascript, though
2015-05-05T15:17:20Z dlowe: there are html formatters that will make it much prettier than manual inserts, in any case.
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2015-05-05T15:20:48Z protist: dlowe: true
2015-05-05T15:21:21Z schjetne: On second thought, I think a shell script calling Buildapp is as good as anything, part of the point of Make is that it's useful when developing to avoid having to recompile everything, but that's a non-issue with Lisp
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2015-05-05T15:23:19Z nyef: schjetne: Especially when ASDF and whatnot should already be trying to avoid recompiling everything.
2015-05-05T15:25:05Z axion: does there exist a native library for reading and writing gzip or some other common compression format?
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2015-05-05T15:26:18Z pjb: axion: and by native you mean?
2015-05-05T15:26:35Z axion: i mean not requiring external C libraries
2015-05-05T15:26:39Z axion: pure lisp
2015-05-05T15:26:45Z pjb: then write pure lisp.
2015-05-05T15:26:47Z nyef: deflate?
2015-05-05T15:27:05Z nyef: Hrm. That might go the other way.
2015-05-05T15:27:14Z Shinmera: schjetne: Funny you should talk about that. https://twitter.com/Shinmera/status/595607394987745281
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2015-05-05T15:28:07Z nyef: Shinmera: Not in the usual vein for asdf-related project names, but nice!
2015-05-05T15:28:11Z schjetne: Shinmera: nice. I've been thinking of looking into extending ASDF for some things myself, but I've been distracted by other things
2015-05-05T15:28:36Z pjb: (quick-apropos "ZIP") list 3 systems seemingly related to zip or gzip.
2015-05-05T15:28:37Z Shinmera: nyef: It doesn't follow the keyboard sequence because there's nothing that would include the "A" key.
2015-05-05T15:28:49Z Shinmera: ABCD is a good compromise imo
2015-05-05T15:28:55Z nyef: QAZ or WASD?
2015-05-05T15:29:09Z Shinmera: nyef: Yeah but then find me a good acronym.
2015-05-05T15:29:11Z schjetne: As for the Unixisms, I think I need to print out one of the cartoons from The Unix-Hater's Handbook to hang over my desk to remind myself it doesn't have to be that way ;)
2015-05-05T15:29:18Z axion: pjb: yes, it looks like i am going to have to try writing one as they all require CFFI or only support decompression
2015-05-05T15:29:24Z nyef: Or AOEU, if you want to be cute about it?
2015-05-05T15:29:25Z axion: unless i'm just not looking hard enough
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2015-05-05T15:31:16Z dlowe: My keyboard has arst on the home keys. The ASDF Refactored System Target?
2015-05-05T15:31:51Z nyef: dlowe: Colemak?
2015-05-05T15:31:55Z dlowe: yeah
2015-05-05T15:32:02Z nyef: There are also the AZERTY keyboards...
2015-05-05T15:33:02Z nyef: And then you get into layouts like MALTRON or JCUKEN, though the latter would be a bit iffy for a project name...
2015-05-05T15:33:04Z Xach: axion: salza2 produces gzip, deflate and chipz consume it
2015-05-05T15:33:16Z Xach: axion: they are all pure CL
2015-05-05T15:33:19Z axion: Xach: ah i looked at that and it mentioned no decompression
2015-05-05T15:33:34Z dlowe: I rather despise the four close-together letters naming scheme, though. Especially uiop.
2015-05-05T15:33:50Z Xach: they are all horrible names
2015-05-05T15:33:52Z dlowe: It's lazy and unattractive.
2015-05-05T15:33:59Z Xach: no sense of taste
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2015-05-05T15:34:07Z axion: Xach: does Salza2 decompress or not?
2015-05-05T15:34:18Z Xach: axion: it does not. deflate and chipz decompress.
2015-05-05T15:34:30Z axion: ok
2015-05-05T15:34:33Z Xach: i use deflate in quicklisp to unpack every archive.
2015-05-05T15:34:35Z nyef: axion: Oh, noes! You need TWO libraries to cover your use case!
2015-05-05T15:35:04Z dlowe: It does seem kind of silly.
2015-05-05T15:35:23Z Shinmera likes the ASDF and UIOP names.
2015-05-05T15:35:32Z Shinmera: So burn me on a cross, will you!
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2015-05-05T15:35:55Z dlowe: how about we just respectfully agree that your view is wrong.
2015-05-05T15:36:14Z ecraven: do you pronounce them letter by letter, or as one word?
2015-05-05T15:36:18Z Shinmera: An attractive proposition, but no
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2015-05-05T15:37:22Z Xach: I pronounce uiop as one word
2015-05-05T15:37:39Z Xach: I was surprised to find nobody i met at els shared that practice
2015-05-05T15:37:53Z Xach: My sample size was small, though
2015-05-05T15:38:03Z schjetne: The main problem with ASDF is that if you try to web search it, you get results that cater to the most bored of web users
2015-05-05T15:38:04Z Shinmera does the same as Xach actually. Too bad they didn't have much opportunity to talk
2015-05-05T15:38:12Z Xof: I don't think I have ever said "uiop" out loud
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2015-05-05T15:38:16Z Xof: shows how in touch I am :-(
2015-05-05T15:38:22Z Xach: Xof: a missed opportunity at ELS for sure
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2015-05-05T15:38:55Z Xof: Xach: I missed out on plenty at ELS
2015-05-05T15:39:02Z Xof: I did get to enjoy some of it!
2015-05-05T15:39:25Z Xof: also, the gift that keeps on giving (currently working on: videos.)
2015-05-05T15:39:42Z Xach: I hope you got a day or two to explore london, too
2015-05-05T15:40:02Z Xof: my other half didn't let me escape from childcare duties for that long!
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2015-05-05T15:44:26Z Xach ponders a conference in his own backyard
2015-05-05T15:47:39Z Petit_Dejeuner: bbq
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2015-05-05T16:00:39Z akkad: hmm lw hobby license for $500. bout time
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2015-05-05T16:02:23Z schjetne: kraison: Any news on VivaceGraph? I'm in the market for a graph database at the moment, I wish I could say for sure that I can take you up on your offer for a code tour and put in some work.
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2015-05-05T16:03:06Z schjetne: (I'd of course be thrilled to get a code tour, but I don't want to waste your time)
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2015-05-05T16:12:57Z Xach worked a bit on vivace last summer
2015-05-05T16:15:21Z schjetne: Xach: what do you think? How far along is it?
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2015-05-05T16:20:42Z akkad expected 7.0 to have more... no obvious difference in performance
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2015-05-05T16:28:05Z drmeister:  Is there anything wrong with this format statement?
2015-05-05T16:28:16Z drmeister: (format t "~A~V,,, '>A " "" 1 "")
2015-05-05T16:28:25Z drmeister: I see three arguments and just two directives   ~A and ~V   and when I run it under very difficult to achieve circumstances it fails because it runs out of arguments!
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2015-05-05T16:29:03Z drmeister: What does this FORMAT statement do?   I don't want to make a mistake in interpreting it because I'm trying to debug clasp internals.
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2015-05-05T16:30:51Z drmeister: What does ~V do?
2015-05-05T16:32:10Z drmeister: I can't find any description in the CLHS
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2015-05-05T16:33:02Z ferada: drmeister: it's in 22.3, formatted output
2015-05-05T16:33:07Z ecraven: only thing with V is Tilde Vertical-Bar, no Tilde V :-/
2015-05-05T16:33:42Z drmeister: ferada: Which one?   I've flipped through them all several times.
2015-05-05T16:33:49Z ferada: the top level
2015-05-05T16:34:11Z drmeister: Ah:  In place of a prefix parameter to a directive, V (or v) can be used.
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2015-05-05T16:36:40Z Shinmera: clhs ~v
2015-05-05T16:36:48Z Shinmera: Argh, specbot is still gone
2015-05-05T16:37:03Z Shinmera: Colleen: do clhs ~v
2015-05-05T16:37:04Z Colleen:  http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm
2015-05-05T16:37:38Z ecraven: not easy to spot :)
2015-05-05T16:37:48Z Xach: right, ~v is not the directive, ~A is, and the V is a placeholder for something taken from the arguments
2015-05-05T16:38:24Z drmeister: Oh g*d this is hard to interpret.
2015-05-05T16:38:56Z drmeister: So is ~V,,,'>A all one directive that takes the (list 1 "") and does something with it?
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2015-05-05T16:39:42Z drmeister: Because Clasp with tagged pointers is doing something wrong with it.
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2015-05-05T16:40:48Z Shinmera: It pads with > until the width is at least v, from what I understand.
2015-05-05T16:41:12Z Shinmera: It's the ~a directive with V for mincol and > for padchar.
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2015-05-05T16:41:53Z drmeister: So it's this:   ~mincol,colinc,minpad,padcharA
2015-05-05T16:41:55Z ecraven: so this should print ">"?
2015-05-05T16:42:50Z drmeister: Probably - it's screwing up the prompt and that kicks it into the debugger, which tries to print a prompt, which invokes the debugger ...
2015-05-05T16:42:55Z drmeister: I'm a bit frustrated.
2015-05-05T16:43:17Z Shinmera: try (format T "~v,,,'>a" 5 "a") vs (format T "~v,,,'>a" 5 "aaa")
2015-05-05T16:43:23Z Shinmera: It'll be clear what it does.
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2015-05-05T16:43:43Z drmeister: How does '>  denote the padchar?   Shouldn't it just be   >
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2015-05-05T16:43:55Z drmeister: The single quote - is that part of the padchar description?
2015-05-05T16:44:03Z Shinmera: No
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2015-05-05T16:44:14Z nyef: I know that the pad character has to be quited, but I don't know WHY.
2015-05-05T16:44:16Z Shinmera: the quote is FORMAT's way to indicate: The next thing is a literal character.
2015-05-05T16:44:37Z Shinmera: I've always found that to be an unfortunate choice.
2015-05-05T16:44:38Z nyef: Ah, to prevent it being interpreted as a directive?
2015-05-05T16:44:43Z Shinmera: Yes.
2015-05-05T16:44:48Z drmeister: Ok, so it tell FORMAT to treat the next character as a literal character - got it.
2015-05-05T16:44:49Z ecraven: why is there a space in front of the quote?
2015-05-05T16:44:52Z nyef: Okay, THAT makes a certain amount of sense.
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2015-05-05T16:45:57Z drmeister: There is no space in front of the single quote    "~A~V,,,'>A "
2015-05-05T16:46:05Z drmeister: I see now.
2015-05-05T16:46:41Z drmeister: The ~V tells it to take the 1 as mincol?
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2015-05-05T16:46:50Z Shinmera: no, just the V.
2015-05-05T16:46:59Z Shinmera: ~ is just indicating the start of a directive.
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2015-05-05T16:47:04Z ecraven: it's ~A with stuff inserted in between ~ and A
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2015-05-05T16:47:29Z Shinmera: See 22.3: In place of a prefix parameter to a directive, V (or v) can be used. In this case, format takes an argument from args as a parameter to the directive. The argument should be an integer or character. If the arg used by a V parameter is nil, the effect is as if the parameter had been omitted. # can be used in place of a prefix parameter; it represents the number of args remaining to be processed. When
2015-05-05T16:47:30Z Xach uses v in format directives from time to time, but has yet to use #
2015-05-05T16:47:31Z Shinmera: used within a recursive format, in the context of ~? or ~{, the # prefix parameter represents the number of format arguments remaining within the recursive call.
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2015-05-05T16:48:23Z Shinmera: Format tries real hard to do as much as possible, but things become so much like symbol soup that it's often not worth it.
2015-05-05T16:48:30Z ecraven: so many sub-languages inside lisp
2015-05-05T16:49:17Z Fade: format needs its own book.
2015-05-05T16:50:14Z Shinmera thinks about code-golf using FORMAT exclusively
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2015-05-05T16:53:00Z drmeister: Got it.
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2015-05-05T16:56:37Z Xach: schjetne: I found it pretty straightforward to use for simple things. If I remember correctly, it wasn't easy to change things after definition - no good support for active schema evolution. It worked ok in a situation where it was ok to occasionally dump things out and reload.
2015-05-05T16:56:58Z pjb: (quick-apropos "ZIP") list 3 systems seemingly related to zip or gzip.
2015-05-05T16:57:52Z Xach: schjetne: and raw performance was not a foremost development concern - getting things correct (not losing data) was primary
2015-05-05T16:58:27Z Xach: schjetne: even though i worked on it, i would choose postgres at the moment, because i am familiar with postgres and i like the maturity and features.
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2015-05-05T17:06:38Z nyef: Damned DSL gateway. I so much as LOOK at the routing table, and it reboots. /-:
2015-05-05T17:09:51Z nyef: Still, managed to get a route into it for another IP range, so now I can reconfigure things in order to use a DHCP server that I control for part of my localnet.
2015-05-05T17:10:17Z nyef: Which means being able to netboot some hardware while still allowing it to connect to the internet-at-large.
2015-05-05T17:10:26Z nyef: Progress!
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2015-05-05T18:07:08Z schjetne: Xach: Sounds like there is quite a lot of work left to do, then.
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2015-05-05T18:07:44Z schjetne: I wonder how Postgres would handle a 10M or so node digraph
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2015-05-05T18:08:11Z schjetne: I'm guessing it's not a great fit
2015-05-05T18:09:28Z schjetne: And all the graph logic would have to be maintained in-house
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2015-05-05T19:37:30Z myrk2: Why would an sbcl script terminate after (loop) ?
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2015-05-05T19:37:52Z myrk2: Concrete example, http://paste.lisp.org/+363P
2015-05-05T19:37:57Z myrk2: "END" is never printed.
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2015-05-05T19:39:13Z hitecnologys: myrk2: because it's never reached?
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2015-05-05T19:39:49Z myrk2: hitecnologys: yeah, that's the obvious part.  What's not obvious, to me, is the *why*
2015-05-05T19:39:53Z ehu: myrk2: because the loop never terminated, you can't tell if it does or not.
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2015-05-05T19:40:18Z Xach: myrk2: READE-LINE always returns a string, unless you provide extra options not to.
2015-05-05T19:40:21Z ehu: myrk2: will "line" ever contain a "false" value, is what you should ask yourself.
2015-05-05T19:40:22Z myrk2: ehu: so, how does the script terminate, if the loop doesn't?
2015-05-05T19:40:25Z Bike: myrk2: you didn't provide the errorp argument to read-line, so it defaults to t, i.e. on EOF it signals an error rather than returning nil as you apparently expetc.
2015-05-05T19:40:29Z ehu: it never will.
2015-05-05T19:40:36Z Xach: READ-LINE, rather
2015-05-05T19:40:52Z myrk2: But the script *does* terminate.
2015-05-05T19:41:01Z hitecnologys: Incorrectly.
2015-05-05T19:41:06Z myrk2: Fair enough.
2015-05-05T19:41:07Z ehu: ok. then it terminates in an error, like bike suggests
2015-05-05T19:41:09Z hitecnologys: Have you examined return code?
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2015-05-05T19:41:14Z myrk2: Nope, yet.
2015-05-05T19:41:21Z Bike: myrk2: --script implies --disable-debugger, so whenever an error is signal it dies with a nonzero error code.
2015-05-05T19:41:30Z myrk2: echo $? gives 0.
2015-05-05T19:41:30Z Bike: is signaled*
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2015-05-05T19:42:04Z Xach: myrk2: you can solve your problems by using (read-line *standard-input* nil) instead of (read-line)
2015-05-05T19:42:17Z Xach: myrk2: then read-line returns nil at eof
2015-05-05T19:42:42Z Xach: well, you can solve one problem. it's possible to encounter more.
2015-05-05T19:42:45Z myrk2: Right, thanks.  Will try it.
2015-05-05T19:42:54Z Bike: hm, i get status zero too. how weird.
2015-05-05T19:43:13Z hitecnologys: Zero here as well.
2015-05-05T19:43:21Z myrk2: Is that a bug in sbcl?
2015-05-05T19:43:27Z hitecnologys: Can't be.
2015-05-05T19:44:00Z hitecnologys: Or it must be relatively new.
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2015-05-05T19:47:11Z jackdaniel: "server is *in* the internet", or "server is *on* the internet"?
2015-05-05T19:47:25Z myrk2: On, to me.
2015-05-05T19:47:39Z jackdaniel: thanks (sorry for offtopic)
2015-05-05T19:48:05Z hitecnologys: The Internet!
2015-05-05T19:48:15Z jackdaniel: :-)
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2015-05-05T21:32:03Z Xach: Hmm. I wonder if a self-extracting gzipped lisp file would be fun.
2015-05-05T21:32:24Z Xach: or if the extraction and deflate code would be so big & slow as to defeat the purpose
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2015-05-05T21:34:34Z pjb: Xach: there are means to compact lisp code.
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2015-05-05T21:38:57Z ferada: with cffi, are people using defctype to get around the "bare references" warning or rather change every location to use (:struct foo) instead?
2015-05-05T21:40:14Z dim: schjetne: there's WITH RECURSIVE to process a graph in SQL, but with 10M nodes I don't know how that would perform. Then you can also provide your own data type (c code) to PostgreSQL at run-time with indexing support and all the jazz, if needs be
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2015-05-05T21:47:55Z LiamH: ferada: I'm not sure defctype would work correctly.
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2015-05-05T21:48:59Z LiamH: mem-aref has different behavior between (:struct foo) and  foo (compatibility).
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2015-05-05T21:49:50Z ferada: LiamH: ah that is good to know, because i didn't come across that case, i.e. "for me it worked"; thanks
2015-05-05T21:50:20Z LiamH: ferada: yeah, I was going to say it may not affect you, so go ahead.
2015-05-05T21:50:52Z schjetne: dim: part of the goal is to stay in Common Lisp as much as possible. I'd rather not have to resort to anything proprietary, like AllegroGraph, whose client will only work with ACL, adding even more to the cost.
2015-05-05T21:50:55Z eudoxia: i use (:struct <type>) because otherwise it throws a warning ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2015-05-05T21:51:07Z LiamH: Basically, uses of mem-aref needs to become mem-aptr.
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2015-05-05T21:55:04Z schjetne: One option is OrientDB, which uses SQL, meaning a lot of the existing SQL infrastructure might be re-used writing a client library for it
2015-05-05T21:55:19Z ferada: right, now i have double check some changes, but it's probably okay
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2015-05-05T22:46:09Z briga: ciaoa tutti
2015-05-05T22:46:12Z briga: !list
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2015-05-05T22:46:32Z briga: come si fa ad avere la lista?
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2015-05-05T22:48:54Z akkad: print?
2015-05-05T22:49:11Z akkad: ,clhs list
2015-05-05T22:49:26Z akkad: non supeva que fossi italiano
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2015-05-05T22:55:42Z akkad: ahh, have join/parts ignored in erc
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2015-05-05T23:12:24Z jasom: akkad: the IRC client I use has a "ingore join/parts unless the person has spoken recently" option; I don't know if ERC has the same
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2015-05-05T23:36:39Z pillton: jasom: ERC does. C-h v erc-track-exclude-types
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2015-05-06T00:02:14Z myrk2: Is there a better option than sb-ext:run-program to run a subprocess, when I want to read its standard output?
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2015-05-06T00:04:39Z pillton: What is wrong with that method first?
2015-05-06T00:04:48Z jasom: myrk2: uiop:run-program is a portable wrapper if that's what you're asking
2015-05-06T00:04:57Z myrk2: Nothing, just wondering if it should be my first choice or not.
2015-05-06T00:05:13Z myrk2: jasom: thanks, I don't need portability right now.
2015-05-06T00:05:35Z myrk2: It seems simple enough to use, so I'll try it.
2015-05-06T00:05:56Z akkad: (load-all-patches) (save-image "~/lw-console" :console t :environment nil :multiprocessing t) ;; fixed it. no more gui
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2015-05-06T00:18:07Z clop2: myrk2: you might try the shellpool library
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2015-05-06T00:29:34Z myrk2: clop2: hmm, maybe I'll take a look, thanks.
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2015-05-06T01:02:58Z clop2: I'm trying to "asdf'ify" the tests for my quicklisp library, to turn them into just a mylib-test system that can be quickloaded.  Is there a way to, uh, "chdir" into mylib/test when quicklisp loads the mylib-test library?  Or at least to learn the directory where the source files live, so I can load related resources?
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2015-05-06T01:34:22Z akkad: is there an accessor function for returning the full name of a file from a file object?
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2015-05-06T01:35:35Z akkad: describe shows it as a structure with slots https://gist.github.com/dc9c56acca8e9e137295
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2015-05-06T01:39:53Z edgar-rft: maybe (namestring #P"/home/akkad/...") is what you're looking for?
2015-05-06T01:40:47Z edgar-rft: where #P"..." is a pathname object, what must not necessarily be a file.
2015-05-06T01:41:40Z akkad: clhs to the rescue
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2015-05-06T01:44:32Z akkad: edgar-rft: yeah, thanks. format handled it, sqlite did not :P
2015-05-06T01:44:44Z akkad: emacs dislikes clhs.org
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2015-05-06T03:16:33Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-05-06T03:16:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-05-06T03:21:18Z drmeister: Hi beach
2015-05-06T03:23:34Z pillton: G'day beach.
2015-05-06T03:24:15Z drmeister: beach: I've been looking into ECL's subtypep and type inference - I found this:
2015-05-06T03:24:16Z drmeister: http://t17598.lisp-ecl-general.lisptalk.us/type-inference-t17598.html
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2015-05-06T03:25:14Z drmeister: tl;dr:  Juanjo felt that ECL's subtypep was better than most.
2015-05-06T03:25:19Z drmeister: For what it's worth.
2015-05-06T03:25:49Z beach: Great!
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2015-05-06T03:29:43Z drmeister: ASDF and Slime now work with clasp using tagged pointers and I'm preparing to switch to immediate FIXNUMs and SHORT-FLOATs
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2015-05-06T03:31:07Z beach: Congratulations!
2015-05-06T03:35:54Z myrk2: Is there an append-to-string operation, similar to read-sequence, when the string in question was made with (make-string 2048) ?
2015-05-06T03:36:23Z myrk2: It turns out I don't want to slurp the whole thing, but read it line-by-line and terminate at a trigger.
2015-05-06T03:36:42Z pillton: clhs concatenate
2015-05-06T03:36:49Z Bicyclidine: I'm having trouble reconciling a similarity between read-sequence and append
2015-05-06T03:37:17Z H4ns: myrk2: are you looking for with-input-from-string?
2015-05-06T03:37:33Z beach: Colleen: do clhs with-output-to-string
2015-05-06T03:37:33Z Colleen: Macro WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_out_.htm
2015-05-06T03:37:37Z myrk2: No, I'm taking a process output (stream) and putting it into a string.
2015-05-06T03:37:58Z H4ns: beach got teh psychic reading skills
2015-05-06T03:38:18Z beach: Exceptionally.
2015-05-06T03:38:25Z myrk2: Colleen: thank you.
2015-05-06T03:38:26Z Colleen: "Thank you" is a common expression of gratitude. It often refers to a thank you letter, a letter written to express appreciation. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thank_You>
2015-05-06T03:39:20Z pillton: Is Colleen the new specbot?
2015-05-06T03:39:39Z beach: Colleen: are you a bot?
2015-05-06T03:39:40Z Colleen: Sheep (Ovis aries) are quadrupedal, ruminant mammals typically kept as livestock. Like all ruminants, sheep are members of the order Artiodactyla, the even-toed ungulates. Although the name "sheep" ap... <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheep>
2015-05-06T03:40:07Z Bicyclidine: myrk2: read-sequence should let you do that?
2015-05-06T03:40:07Z ChibaPet: Mmmm, ungulates.
2015-05-06T03:40:20Z Bicyclidine: colleen is a bot, run i believe by shinmera
2015-05-06T03:40:29Z beach: Indeed.
2015-05-06T03:40:54Z pillton: Was specbot was run by stassats?
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2015-05-06T03:41:21Z pillton: Sorry, was specbot run by stassats?
2015-05-06T03:41:41Z beach: I think so, yes.
2015-05-06T03:41:48Z beach: I think it's just a temporary problem.
2015-05-06T03:42:09Z nyef: Might just need the process restarting, or a reconnect command issued to its console.
2015-05-06T03:42:09Z pillton: Oh ok. I haven't seen stassats on here for ages.
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2015-05-06T03:42:36Z beach: He vowed to stay out I think.
2015-05-06T03:42:40Z nyef: Last message I see from stassats is... about 105 minutes old.
2015-05-06T03:42:58Z nyef: And then he had a ping timeout.
2015-05-06T03:43:09Z pillton: nyef: In #lisp or #sbcl?
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2015-05-06T03:43:21Z nyef: In #sbcl.
2015-05-06T03:44:23Z axion: hello
2015-05-06T03:44:43Z beach: Hello axion.
2015-05-06T03:44:51Z axion: If anyone could help, I need some advice for rewriting the ugliest function I think I've ever written, using some loop construct preferably
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2015-05-06T03:45:29Z axion: http://paste.lisp.org/display/147886
2015-05-06T03:46:24Z pillton: axion: Ah math and state.
2015-05-06T03:46:55Z Bicyclidine: vec constructs a 3-vector, m## are bound by %with-matrix?
2015-05-06T03:47:25Z axion: m## are just symbols generated referring to array indexes of a matrix
2015-05-06T03:47:37Z axion: and yes vec is a array single-float (3)
2015-05-06T03:48:56Z Bicyclidine: i don't really see a good way to shorten this.
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2015-05-06T03:49:28Z Bicyclidine: well, i guess you could avoid binding -normal and -dir.
2015-05-06T03:50:26Z axion: hmm
2015-05-06T03:51:01Z beach: drmeister: I am rewriting the chapter on bootstrapping in the SICL specification.  As it turns out, I haven't revisited bootstrapping since I invented first-class global environments, so that chapter still talks about different package names.
2015-05-06T03:51:46Z Bicyclidine: You could have two vectors, one for vadds and one for vsubs, and do (map 'vector #'vnorm ...) (map 'vector (lambda (v) (/ (+ m33 m30) (vlen v))) ...) and so on, but i dunno
2015-05-06T03:51:50Z drmeister: Yes, from what I understand now things will change a lot.
2015-05-06T03:52:26Z beach: drmeister: Right.  It will be much simpler and much "cleaner".
2015-05-06T03:52:38Z nyef: (macrolet ((plane-normal (plane-name) `(vnorm ,plane-name)) (plane-dir (plane-name ???) `(/ (+ m33 ,???) (vlen ,plane-name))) (values (vector (plane-normal left) ...) (vector (plane-dir left) ...))) ?
2015-05-06T03:52:39Z pillton: axion: Stuff like this is hard. You also have to think of yourself in 6 months time.
2015-05-06T03:52:56Z axion: Bicyclidine: I was thinking of getting rid of the m## and doing some loop which calculates the correct indices
2015-05-06T03:53:08Z axion: I mean there IS a pattern
2015-05-06T03:53:16Z axion: But I just can't seem to do it
2015-05-06T03:53:19Z nyef: Err... (plane-dir left m30), sorry... And, ugh, missed the operation sign.
2015-05-06T03:54:13Z nyef: axion: For your consideration: https://common-lisp.net/~abridgewater/lisp-tex-test-2.png
2015-05-06T03:54:54Z pillton: nyef: Awesome.
2015-05-06T03:55:01Z axion: cool
2015-05-06T03:55:44Z nyef: The lisp side of that would have been a $ reader-macro.
2015-05-06T03:55:55Z nyef: And, quite plausibly, a lot of supporting functions and macros.
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2015-05-06T03:56:23Z axion: I wrote a rather comprehensive matrix transformation library
2015-05-06T03:56:34Z nyef: But I had no idea (and still don't) how to get the emacs side to work, so I didn't bother implementing the lisp-side magic.
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2015-05-06T03:58:53Z axion: sigh i just realized that i named them -dir when they are distances not directions :/
2015-05-06T03:59:07Z nyef: So, they're scalar magnitudes
2015-05-06T03:59:08Z nyef: ?
2015-05-06T03:59:34Z axion: nyef: the relevant description/C code is here http://ruh.li/CameraViewFrustum.html
2015-05-06T03:59:54Z nyef: Actually, wait, no. It's midnight, and I'm fairly sure that I have to work tomorrow.
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2015-05-06T04:29:21Z isaac_rks: is common lisp dead?
2015-05-06T04:32:49Z ChibaPet: isaac_rks: no
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2015-05-06T04:46:34Z beach: isaac_rks: https://common-lisp.net
2015-05-06T04:47:07Z beach: isaac_rks: Notice the dates given on that site.
2015-05-06T04:48:09Z isaac_rks: common lisp suffers from ingrained sexist attitudes
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2015-05-06T04:49:16Z ChibaPet: When I'm bored, I play a game - competitive is better. A game where I can accrue rank is best.
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2015-05-06T04:51:55Z Zhivago: I know a good game like that.
2015-05-06T04:52:39Z Zhivago: You play by seeing how long you can go for without writing anything on irc. Rank is determined by the maximum number of minutes you can do it for.
2015-05-06T04:52:52Z ChibaPet: Oh, I've played that one. Good call.
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2015-05-06T05:27:01Z kami: Good morning
2015-05-06T05:27:21Z pillton: Morning!
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2015-05-06T05:38:58Z loke: Zhivago: idlerpg, right?
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2015-05-06T05:46:58Z theos: © 2014, The Common Lisp Foundation. Last modified: 2015.05.05
2015-05-06T05:47:15Z theos: someone forgot to change the copyright year :P
2015-05-06T05:47:36Z ehu: theos: or the page did not change.
2015-05-06T05:47:46Z ehu: but probably you're right.
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2015-05-06T05:47:55Z ehu: theos: all pages, I guess?
2015-05-06T05:47:59Z theos: ehu its on the front page
2015-05-06T05:48:21Z ehu: hmm. that was updated.
2015-05-06T05:48:51Z ehu: (content wise I mean)
2015-05-06T05:49:24Z theos: so there is no copyright in 2015 legally
2015-05-06T05:49:39Z Zhivago: Evidence of time-travel.
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2015-05-06T05:50:14Z beach: theos: Copyright is automatic.
2015-05-06T05:50:26Z Zhivago: You should never update those years.
2015-05-06T05:50:30Z Zhivago: That's the starting date, not the end-date.
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2015-05-06T05:50:52Z Zhivago: If you changed it to 2015, you would assert that you do not claim the copyright from 2014.
2015-05-06T05:51:14Z theos: copyright should have a starting and an end
2015-05-06T05:51:25Z ehu: theos: huh?
2015-05-06T05:51:38Z theos: 2014-2015
2015-05-06T05:52:02Z ehu: theos: if I distribute a program in 2014, I'm the copyright holder for a loooong time.
2015-05-06T05:52:04Z H4ns: theos: because otherwise, precisely what would happen?
2015-05-06T05:52:17Z ehu: the program will never show 2015, because it's not recompiled.
2015-05-06T05:52:20Z H4ns: ehu: maybe you want to remove the copyright notice, as it seems to offend some people.
2015-05-06T05:52:40Z ehu: H4ns: That's an idea.
2015-05-06T05:52:50Z theos: H4ns its more of a funny thing
2015-05-06T05:52:55Z H4ns: haha loool
2015-05-06T05:53:03Z Zhivago: theos: No, it really should not.
2015-05-06T05:53:14Z Zhivago: theos: It has a date of assertion, the duration is volatile.
2015-05-06T05:53:31Z Zhivago: (unless you want to stop asserting copyright, I guess)
2015-05-06T05:54:26Z beach: If you add new material, you might want to add a copyright date for that, but it is not required.
2015-05-06T05:55:06Z ehu: I added 2015, but since it's not listing which items relate to 2015, it's really dubious as to what the 2015 actually means.
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2015-05-06T05:56:04Z theos: Zhivago i was just having fun. there is no need for copyright on that site (mostly)
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2015-05-06T05:57:01Z Zhivago: There never is, until there is.
2015-05-06T05:57:07Z myrk2: I like copyright years to be recent, it means someone (or something) update it recently.
2015-05-06T05:57:50Z Zhivago: No, it doesn't. :)
2015-05-06T05:57:51Z myrk2: So legal reasons aside, they do have a purpose.
2015-05-06T05:58:14Z myrk2: Zhivago: copyright years are rarely seen in the future.
2015-05-06T05:58:15Z ehu: myrk2: there's php code which will happily do that for you.
2015-05-06T05:58:25Z theos: ehu the copyright stays forever. upto 50 years after the author dies. choosing 2014 is ok. if the page/site was created before 2014, you should change it to that year
2015-05-06T05:58:30Z ehu: (insert the latest year upon sending the page)
2015-05-06T05:58:43Z myrk2: ehu: there's <insert language> code that'll happily do it for me, yes I know.
2015-05-06T05:58:59Z ehu: theos: the site has been released in its current form in 2014.
2015-05-06T05:59:12Z theos: so 2014 is most apt
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2015-05-06T06:00:02Z Zhivago: myrk2: If you are updating them, then you're retroactively deasserting your copyright from earlier.
2015-05-06T06:00:09Z theos: ^^
2015-05-06T06:00:15Z Zhivago: I guess you could write out (c) 2014, 2015, 2016, ...
2015-05-06T06:00:19Z myrk2: Zhivago: copyright doesn't work that way, according to the berne convention.
2015-05-06T06:00:49Z theos: copyright works till some wealthy company tries to steal your work
2015-05-06T06:01:08Z myrk2: But pre-berne convention US copyright laws (which have never applied to me, personally) muddle the waters.
2015-05-06T06:01:12Z ehu: copyright works for the editors, not for the authors.
2015-05-06T06:01:25Z ehu: but that doesn't matter; we're stuck with it.
2015-05-06T06:01:33Z myrk2: c;
2015-05-06T06:01:34Z ehu: Zhivago: I've now added 2015 the way you give the exmple.
2015-05-06T06:02:00Z ehu: anyway, I have to leave for work. ttyl.
2015-05-06T06:02:12Z theos: bye
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2015-05-06T06:02:50Z myrk2: Maybe I should start to Copyright 2039 all my works c;
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2015-05-06T07:22:56Z kami: Is there a way of terminating a loop after a certain number of elements where collected?
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2015-05-06T07:23:22Z Zhivago: return, iirc.
2015-05-06T07:23:54Z myrk2: when ... return ... ; maybe.
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2015-05-06T07:25:32Z kami: I thought return is executed unconditionally in loop
2015-05-06T07:25:36Z kami: thanks, I'll try
2015-05-06T07:26:11Z myrk2: I've used a conditional return, with "return it"
2015-05-06T07:26:20Z myrk2: Don't remember the details right now.
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2015-05-06T07:46:30Z Cymew: I feel I need to suggest trying DO if you've spent more than 15 minutes trying to get the cogs and wheels of LOOP to click together. It's my OCD, so feel free to ignore.
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2015-05-06T08:04:03Z jackdani1l: (incf 'do)
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2015-05-06T08:04:22Z Shinmera: (decf 'do)
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2015-05-06T08:54:28Z Cymew: :)
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2015-05-06T08:58:29Z protist: Xach: I thought of a clean way to fix the issue of tagged elements within strings :)
2015-05-06T08:58:39Z protist: Xach: I'm going to make a change soon I think
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2015-05-06T08:59:53Z protist: Xach: after I do then doing something like <p>st<i>i</i>ng</p> would be `(p ("st" (i "i") "ng"))
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2015-05-06T09:00:30Z protist: XachX: I'll just prevent strings in the first position as tags....if someone wants to control the case of a tag, they will have to use |tHiS|
2015-05-06T09:00:35Z jackdaniel: small butlast with reminder utility: http://paste.lisp.org/display/147895 (RFC)
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2015-05-06T09:00:44Z Bike: why not (p "st" (i "i") "ng")?
2015-05-06T09:01:08Z protist: Bike: I use the length of the list to decide if the second element is attributes
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2015-05-06T09:01:38Z protist: Bike: (p ((attribute1 "1")(attribute2 "2")) text)
2015-05-06T09:02:06Z protist: Bike: that is what attributes look like...so if the list is length 3, then I know the second element is for attributes
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2015-05-06T09:02:19Z Shinmera: Why not just ((a :href "bla") "sttub") Simple and unambiguous.
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2015-05-06T09:03:07Z protist: Shinmera: unambiguous both ways...but I guess it is a taste thing
2015-05-06T09:03:29Z protist: Shinmera: I like the attributes to mirror the `let' syntax...good visually (in my opinion)
2015-05-06T09:03:48Z protist: Shinmera: ah there is another reason
2015-05-06T09:04:08Z protist: Shinmera: your way would be ambiguous with the way cl-durian handles things
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2015-05-06T09:04:20Z protist: Shinmera: not to say you couldn't have a system that works differently
2015-05-06T09:05:56Z protist: Shinmera: because if you did `(tag ((a :href "bla") "sttub"))....cl-durian would assume from the nested lists that (a :href "blah") would not just be a tag description, but a tag with contents to recur on
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2015-05-06T09:28:15Z loke: What is cl-durian?
2015-05-06T09:28:26Z loke: Durian is, as everybody should know, a very tasty fruit.
2015-05-06T09:29:05Z protist: loke: it is an html generator :)
2015-05-06T09:29:20Z protist: loke: couldn't decide on a name, and had tried durian for the first time that day
2015-05-06T09:29:48Z theos: you either love it or hate it
2015-05-06T09:29:57Z loke: protist: You liked it?
2015-05-06T09:30:01Z protist: theos: I liked it :)
2015-05-06T09:30:05Z loke: Yay!
2015-05-06T09:30:09Z protist: theos: I had dried durian treats, though :p
2015-05-06T09:30:20Z theos: protist oh :D try the fresh fruit
2015-05-06T09:30:20Z loke: protist: Where did you try it?
2015-05-06T09:30:56Z protist: theos: I plan to sometime :)
2015-05-06T09:31:02Z protist: loke: I bought it at the asian market
2015-05-06T09:31:12Z loke: protist: But not the fresh one?
2015-05-06T09:31:17Z protist: loke: I go there and ask the guy at the counter to tell me something new to try every time :)
2015-05-06T09:31:35Z loke: protist: Oh, you're in nz
2015-05-06T09:31:38Z loke: ?
2015-05-06T09:31:49Z protist: loke: yeah, I'm from America, though
2015-05-06T09:31:57Z protist: loke: you did /whois ?
2015-05-06T09:32:05Z loke: Yeah
2015-05-06T09:32:08Z protist: loke: :p
2015-05-06T09:32:27Z loke: protist: What part of america? Canada? Brazil?
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2015-05-06T09:32:36Z protist: loke: /the/ America ;)
2015-05-06T09:32:42Z protist: loke: that should answer it haha
2015-05-06T09:32:53Z loke: Murcia? :-)
2015-05-06T09:32:57Z protist: loke: yessir
2015-05-06T09:33:47Z protist: hmmm....so I have made a version of my html generator that can handle the cases I couldn't before, but I forfeited indentation in pursuit of correctness
2015-05-06T09:34:32Z protist: I suppose I will update the docs to get rid of all mention of indentation....and take the indentation out of the examples...and ellaborate on the new features...and push the changes
2015-05-06T09:34:34Z protist: :/
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2015-05-06T09:59:51Z protist: Shinmera: Xach: cl-durian no longer indents, but handles the problem cases it had before
2015-05-06T10:00:11Z protist: loke: theos: the library named after the fruit → https://github.com/GordianNaught/cl-durian
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2015-05-06T11:00:36Z theos: :)
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2015-05-06T11:31:40Z axion: link doesnt work because all of github is down :/
2015-05-06T11:33:43Z nyef: ... Github is down?
2015-05-06T11:33:47Z zacts: eek! yeah github is down for me too
2015-05-06T11:33:51Z zacts: this sucks
2015-05-06T11:34:23Z ecraven: contact them, as the page says!
2015-05-06T11:34:26Z nyef: Some part of me is saying "may it be down all day", largely because it would inconvenience my github-using co-workers.
2015-05-06T11:34:26Z zacts: hrm... https://status.github.com/
2015-05-06T11:34:39Z zacts: I like gitlab
2015-05-06T11:34:41Z Xach: gee, thanks
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2015-05-06T11:34:51Z zacts: but github has its charm
2015-05-06T11:35:17Z zacts: Xach: my PCL book has your nick on the front of it quoted
2015-05-06T11:35:22Z zacts: "That book is dead sexy!"
2015-05-06T11:35:31Z Xach: zacts: i get $0.003 for every copy sold!
2015-05-06T11:35:34Z zacts: hehe
2015-05-06T11:35:41Z zacts: I got a physical copy actually
2015-05-06T11:35:43Z nyef: minion: that-dead-sexy-book?
2015-05-06T11:35:44Z minion: that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2015-05-06T11:35:54Z zacts: I much prefer physical paper books over ebooks
2015-05-06T11:35:56Z Xach: i wish. then i would have over two dollars
2015-05-06T11:36:11Z axion: well its like 4:30am in their HQ city
2015-05-06T11:36:16Z axion: let them wake up
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2015-05-06T11:37:13Z Zhivago: I'm come to much prefer reading books on my telephone.
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2015-05-06T11:38:05Z zacts: Zhivago: I guess one of my problems with ebooks is that I have distractions of irc / emacs / vim / web browsing / etc... and I don't really focus on what I'm reading enough
2015-05-06T11:38:18Z zacts: I end up getting nothing done
2015-05-06T11:38:24Z axion: i could say the same thing about IRC
2015-05-06T11:38:33Z zacts: axion: um... I said irc
2015-05-06T11:38:48Z axion: and I'm emphasizing that option
2015-05-06T11:38:56Z zacts: ah yeah :-D
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2015-05-06T11:39:53Z decent: dead tree is "good".. :)
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2015-05-06T11:47:47Z Cymew: "We're doing emergency maintenance to recover the site" oops
2015-05-06T11:48:27Z axion: it's funny watching all the channels i'm in at the panic
2015-05-06T11:48:48Z axion: isnt that what git solves best? decentralization?
2015-05-06T11:48:56Z Cymew: Reminds me I really should get a physical copy of PCL. I've even gotten around to get AMOP so now I have no excuse.
2015-05-06T11:49:36Z Cymew: I guess I wont push any code this afternoon
2015-05-06T11:49:40Z Xach: I sent my copy of PCL to someone a long time ago to thank them for some help
2015-05-06T11:49:54Z Xach: I recently bought another copy from ebay for under $20. It's in great shape.
2015-05-06T11:51:51Z Cymew: $33.39 for a new hardcover on Amazon. Surprisingly cheap.
2015-05-06T11:52:58Z Cymew: OTOH I just got "Land of Lisp" back from a co worker and felt it would be fun to plow through that one again.
2015-05-06T11:53:10Z Xach: that's decent
2015-05-06T11:53:57Z axion: and we're back
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2015-05-06T11:58:43Z Shinmera lent his copy of PCL to a friend in hopes he'll finally be convinced to take the time and start on CL.
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2015-05-06T13:07:51Z jackdaniel: if I have lexically scoped variable shared between a few functions, like (let (x) (defun a () ...) (defun b () ...)) ; should I name it x, or rather *x* ?
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2015-05-06T13:12:40Z ggole: x. Earmuffs should indicate a dynamically scoped variable.
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2015-05-06T13:13:08Z ggole: If you want to clearly indicate the shared nature of the variable, that might be a good idea - shared-x, perhaps.
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2015-05-06T13:13:23Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2015-05-06T13:41:42Z Cymew: Less fun part of getting PCL in hardcopy: USD 24.95 shipping. :(
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2015-05-06T13:51:13Z pjb: akkad: there are no file objects in CL.
2015-05-06T13:51:35Z Zhivago: Which is perhaps unfortunate.
2015-05-06T13:51:38Z pjb: akkad: notice: open: pathname-descriptor -> stream
2015-05-06T13:51:49Z pjb: Zhivago: I'd agree.
2015-05-06T13:53:07Z pjb: But then, there are very few languages where files are reified.  AFAIK, only some OO libraries have them.
2015-05-06T13:56:45Z Zhivago: They're reified in python.
2015-05-06T13:57:04Z Zhivago: javascript just doesn't have files or streams, so the problem doesn't occur. :)
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2015-05-06T14:00:44Z pjb: One problem is that the file system can be mutated in parallel to the internal representation (object graph).
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2015-05-06T14:01:33Z pjb: Basically, when you have a file object, you need to add one link (and the best way to do that is to open it).
2015-05-06T14:02:08Z pjb: So it's rather can-of-wormy.
2015-05-06T14:02:33Z Zhivago: The same applies to sockets, etc.
2015-05-06T14:03:34Z pjb: (directory "*") --> a list of objects each with its open fd…
2015-05-06T14:03:53Z pjb: "**/*"
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2015-05-06T14:13:18Z pjb: On the other hand, on a system with a unique addressing space, with a unified memory model (no explicit I/O) and with automatic persistance, then the file objects would be the true files, and there would be no problem.
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2015-05-06T14:18:36Z flip214: pjb: don't talk to my colleague about that, he's still hanging in the mainframe time slot...
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2015-05-06T14:20:48Z Walex: pjb: echoes of System 38 :-)
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2015-05-06T14:21:53Z Walex: pjb: or reference to MIT TR-102 IIRC, Peter Bishops' "Very Large Address Spaces and distributed garbage collection".
2015-05-06T14:22:56Z Walex: http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/41992
2015-05-06T14:24:51Z nyef: Walex: Thanks for the link, the abstract at least sounds interesting.
2015-05-06T14:26:15Z Walex: nyef: it is one of the most important papers in the history of computing and like several other almost entirely forgotten.
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2015-05-06T14:28:21Z nyef: Well, it's on my to-read-soon queue now. Might even get to it today.
2015-05-06T14:28:36Z nyef: (Meanwhile, I need to get back to work.)
2015-05-06T14:29:30Z Walex: another long forgotten paper is the series of Henry Baker papers on binding, e.g. http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ShallowBinding.html
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2015-05-06T14:31:18Z Zhivago: Largely because it's pretty obvious in hindsight.
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2015-05-06T14:36:54Z p_l: unified disk/memory address space these days is afaik mostly IBM "not-quite-mainframe" area ;)
2015-05-06T14:38:55Z Walex: Zhivago: what???????
2015-05-06T14:39:08Z nyef: p_l: At the system level, maybe, but if you have a program that simply mmap()s a large file to use as memory space you have a pretty close simulation.
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2015-05-06T14:39:49Z p_l: nyef: they use 128bit address space afaik precisely to have it across the whole of the machine
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2015-05-06T15:19:33Z oleo: hello :)
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2015-05-06T15:28:06Z Shinmera: Who needs a special defclass macro when you have paredit and multiple-cursors? https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TlRneg==
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2015-05-06T15:30:57Z failproofshark: to anyone here that has used cl-dbi and or datafly, has anyone ever recieved a mysql server has goone away error? from my understanding it usually occurs when a query is sent to a closed server connection. From looking at the code connect-cached supposedly pings the server before connecting but it doesnt seem to bother to reconnect before it sends the query (line 38 https://github.com/fukamachi/datafly/blob/e1c5a78759701e40d425e2101d9c5a105cb
2015-05-06T15:31:48Z failproofshark: this seems to happen after 24 hours post deployment
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2015-05-06T15:32:13Z axion: have you considered using something worthwhile, like postgresql?
2015-05-06T15:34:07Z Xach: axion: It would suffice to say you have no experience in that particular area, or even better, say nothing.
2015-05-06T15:34:23Z eudoxia: so what even is datafly
2015-05-06T15:34:25Z axion: You're right. I gave up on mysql about 10 years ago
2015-05-06T15:34:29Z eudoxia: is it like a lightweight orm or something
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2015-05-06T15:34:59Z failproofshark: eudoxia: it's sort of a wrapper around cl-dbi to execute sql statements
2015-05-06T15:35:12Z failproofshark: form my understanding anyhow
2015-05-06T15:35:16Z Shinmera: cliki yields nothing and google results in a domain company :/
2015-05-06T15:35:36Z Xach: https://github.com/fukamachi/datafly has some info.
2015-05-06T15:36:10Z Shinmera: Xach: Yeah, I was hoping to find projects that use it.
2015-05-06T15:36:16Z Shinmera: Or articles on it.
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2015-05-06T15:37:12Z failproofshark: one thing i've tried to do is change the with-connection statement to simply connect to the database once and disconnect after the sql statement has executed but that didnt seem to work https://gist.github.com/bogosortist/29df0a3f08b180c08139
2015-05-06T15:37:36Z failproofshark: i apologize in advance for asking a question with little context :/
2015-05-06T15:38:39Z Xach: failproofshark: No problem, it just seems like nobody here can help much. Maybe an issue on the repo would get better results?
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2015-05-06T15:39:33Z failproofshark: thank you. yes i shall open an issue on the repo
2015-05-06T15:40:05Z eudoxia: raising a public issue is often better than private bugfixing on IRC or emailing the author since other users with the same problem can search for and read the issue
2015-05-06T15:40:16Z Shinmera: failproofshark: Can you see the logs of the mysql server? That might point you in a direction of what's going on on the server side
2015-05-06T15:40:29Z failproofshark: Shinmera: ill look into that
2015-05-06T15:40:41Z Shinmera: IIRC "server has gone away" might indicate a server-side error that busted your query and then just closed the connection.
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2015-05-06T15:41:06Z failproofshark: eudoxia: i understand.
2015-05-06T15:41:23Z Shinmera: eudoxia: Sure, but IRC is good if you have the hope that the issue is trivially fixed.
2015-05-06T15:41:31Z Shinmera: So it's worth it to try it first.
2015-05-06T15:41:58Z eudoxia: yes, but for issues with more specific libraries, the chances of one particular person on irc knowing the solution are rather slim
2015-05-06T15:42:13Z eudoxia: so it's better to just go straight to the source, in this case, the author's repo
2015-05-06T15:42:26Z Shinmera: Clearly the solution is to force every library author to check IRC.
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2015-05-06T15:44:09Z eudoxia: timezones breh
2015-05-06T15:44:21Z Shinmera: No sleep for the wicked.
2015-05-06T15:44:36Z failproofshark: until they close their eyes for good?
2015-05-06T15:44:53Z Shinmera: Then it would be unmaintained and you're on your own anyway.
2015-05-06T15:44:54Z failproofshark: anyway, thanks everyone, ill see if anything pops up in my error logs and file a bug report
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2015-05-06T16:59:13Z protist: pjb: cl-durian no longer indents output...I'll give you something to update that file with sometime soon
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2015-05-06T17:00:13Z protist: pjb: I changed it to handle some cases I hadn't thought of until Xach mentioned them :p
2015-05-06T17:00:23Z protist: pjb: I have to sleep now though lol
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2015-05-06T17:11:43Z otwieracz: https://github.com/fukamachi/ningle/issues/5 – do you guys have any ideas?
2015-05-06T17:12:18Z eudoxia: i had the same thing recently when updating my libs to clack 2.0
2015-05-06T17:12:30Z eudoxia: i don't recall the solution, maybe load clack-v1-compat
2015-05-06T17:12:34Z otwieracz: Why APP should be pathname?
2015-05-06T17:12:45Z eudoxia: oh wait
2015-05-06T17:13:03Z eudoxia: also instead of (clack:clackup *app* ...) do (clack:clackup (lack:builder *app*) ...)
2015-05-06T17:13:09Z eudoxia: something like that should work
2015-05-06T17:13:15Z otwieracz: What is lack?
2015-05-06T17:13:20Z eudoxia: the core of clack
2015-05-06T17:13:54Z otwieracz: Oh my god.
2015-05-06T17:13:57Z otwieracz: What happend here.
2015-05-06T17:15:49Z Shinmera: An attempt at encapsulation and refactoring.
2015-05-06T17:16:14Z eudoxia: exactly my reaction tbh
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2015-05-06T17:37:17Z jasom pulls hair out
2015-05-06T17:37:35Z Zhivago: Are you making a trap for mice?
2015-05-06T17:38:00Z Oladon: Mice like hair for their nests, so that does seem likely.
2015-05-06T17:38:28Z jasom: I'm trying to get eclipse-cl running on emscripten.  Didn't have any time last week; have a few spare cycles this week
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2015-05-06T17:39:23Z eudoxia: good luck and may god have mercy on your soul
2015-05-06T17:39:25Z jasom: For some reason on native, the method lookup for pathname-parse-device works, but not on emscripten.
2015-05-06T17:40:06Z akkad: how does ecl tend to compare to sbcl in performance?
2015-05-06T17:40:37Z jasom: eclipse is implemented almost entirely on top of CLOS (unlike more traditional lisp implementations) so method lookup is fairly fundamental, and it's worked just fine up until this point
2015-05-06T17:40:44Z dim: akkad: what happens when you benchmark it?
2015-05-06T17:41:08Z dim: I mean with you own application/code of course
2015-05-06T17:41:15Z dim: any other benchmark would be meaningless
2015-05-06T17:41:18Z akkad: dim: I'm level setting my expectation before I setup all the Makefile requirements
2015-05-06T17:41:26Z jasom: minion: memo for beach: you have some tests for ANSI conformance; are they runnable without asdf?
2015-05-06T17:41:26Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-05-06T17:41:42Z dim: akkad: yeah there's that too
2015-05-06T17:41:45Z akkad: thus the request for a central tendency
2015-05-06T17:41:53Z dim: last I tried I couldn't have lparallel working on ECL, so no pgloader
2015-05-06T17:42:00Z dim: so I have no idea
2015-05-06T17:42:14Z jasom: akkad: depending on the code anywhere from somewhat slower to a lot slower.  For code you write yourself, it's a lot faster than clisp though (I think most of clisps standard library is a bit faster though)
2015-05-06T17:42:15Z Xach: jasom: the original ansi tests do not use asdf. i think beach is adding asdf loadability.
2015-05-06T17:42:58Z akkad: jasom. thanks. After finding ABCL to be the best for my code, I'm pretty happy
2015-05-06T17:43:06Z Xach: jasom: they were part of the gcl repo but i think are available separately from several other places.
2015-05-06T17:44:14Z eudoxia: e.g. https://github.com/sbcl/ansi-cl-tests
2015-05-06T17:45:13Z jasom was curious how well eclipse would do on those
2015-05-06T17:45:30Z jasom: I've fixed several bugs already thanks to valgrind
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2015-05-06T17:46:41Z jasom: a lot of the runtime initialization forgot to have the end-of-argument marker when calling from C to lisp; since it is a NULL though a zero-initialized stack will actually work without crashing
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2015-05-06T17:47:06Z Xach: jasom: i'm curious too
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2015-05-06T17:47:46Z jasom: I'll have to re-enable the GC to run those I suppose; I have it disabled for now to make testing easier
2015-05-06T17:48:26Z Xach: let it grow...let it grow...
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2015-05-06T17:49:40Z jasom: well it's 32-bit only so...
2015-05-06T17:49:57Z jasom: If it were 64-bit I'd just add a terrabyte of swap and let it run overnight
2015-05-06T17:50:29Z jasom: of course right now I'm more interested in the interpreter than the compiler
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2015-05-06T17:58:44Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/rtoy/ansi-cl-tests <- this is main repo, with a few recent commits
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2015-05-06T18:13:07Z akkad: in sbcl I saved an image of something I was working on in the repl
2015-05-06T18:13:27Z otwieracz: Hmm.
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2015-05-06T18:14:01Z otwieracz: Am I able to set route like "/*" in ningle to match /foo/bar/car into '(foo bar car) in :splat?
2015-05-06T18:14:04Z akkad: how do I see what functions I defined, command history
2015-05-06T18:14:13Z akkad: running it brings up a repl
2015-05-06T18:14:15Z ASau: akkad: if you take care checking if the package is up-to-date, it would be nice. :)
2015-05-06T18:14:29Z akkad: asau enotnbsd
2015-05-06T18:14:32Z ASau: akkad: labg/abcl
2015-05-06T18:14:45Z ASau shrugs.
2015-05-06T18:15:07Z akkad: Asau sure. I was not sure what you were suggesting
2015-05-06T18:15:11Z ASau: I don't use exclusively NetBSD to develop.
2015-05-06T18:15:20Z akkad: well LW 7 works on netbsd :P
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2015-05-16T05:38:19Z names: ccl-logbot cosmicexplorer dmiles_afk pacon3 A205B064 emaczen kami DrWat White_Flame a2015 setheus Petit_Dejeuner Denommus joneshf-laptop kcj ggole gingerale Karl_Dscc jtz smokeink beach pyon idafyaid singularity_1 wemeetagain sz0 ndrei cirklo keen____ theos zacharias_ jdz cyphase oleo_ f3lp aap_ joga voidlily x1n4u Oladon wooden bb010g vsync milosn defaultxr vhost- antgreen Patzy impulse leafybasil PinealGlandOptic edgar-rft robot-beethoven tkd
2015-05-16T05:38:19Z names: JokesOnYou77 sakes ssake devon JuanDaugherty gniourf_gniourf Bike clog alexherbo2 Jesin ASau psy_ eli akersof solyd kvsari MrWoohoo rtra _sjs DruidGreeneyes knobo happy-dude BitPuffin|osx specbot minion araujo yasha9 adlai d4ryus hitecnologys thodg quazimodo moei Intensity loz djinni` gigetoo jewel salv0 stepnem ahungry cmatei PlasmaStar russell-- Longlius lemonpepper24_ haasn Zotan rvchangue_ Walex scharan kjeldahl TristamWrk ktt9 MoALTz tristero
2015-05-16T05:38:19Z names: gniourf taij33n- marvi agumonkey newcup hyoyoung mtd karswell H4ns yeticry ronh- trinque CrazyEddy bjorkintosh someone bipt cyraxjoe farhaven eazar001 dfox diginet trn kephra GGMethos dan64 jasom yorick rk[1]_ smull failproofshark zyoung tessier wyan xan__ nopf rotty xificurC ferada Cthulhux jrm NaNDude aeth constantinexvi cross pinterface froggey nydel TeMPOraL dim arrsim mearnsh aerique AeroNotix vlnx K1rk AntiSpamMeta EnergyCoffee ft daimrod zaquest
2015-05-16T05:38:19Z names: fikusz Ralt dsp_ yang anunnaki Tordek Neptu alchemis7 splittist radioninja_work vert2 ir2ivps sharkz mingvs kbtr_ phf emma killmaster bthom2 nowhere_man_ Xof mikaelj ecraven c74d nicdev tsumetai schjetne lb5tr christoph_debian srcerer theBlackDragon peccu vaporatorius Xach foom cods ec\ jself_ gko heurist jonh flip214 Oddity ivan4th Tristam hratsimihah housel ski ramus viaken Zhivago seg `micro mburke bobbysmith007 Natch Khisanth peterhil backupthrick
2015-05-16T05:38:19Z names: stopbyte nitro_idiot_ capitaomorte` sword` troydm drdo CEnnis91 freehck __main__ mathrick ineiros ozzloy dilated_dinosaur josteink GuilOooo Posterdati katco faheem decent michaelreid s1n4 otwieracz loke johs jackc- akkad lemoinem kanru cibs m_zr0 nightshade427 whartung lancetw lieven pillton tomaw oconnore jlarocco_work axion sshirokov nightfly Kruppe cmbntr Odin- musegarden2 jackdaniel tuturto gz pchrist d4gg4d j_king munge` SAL9000 NhanH sigjuice
2015-05-16T05:38:19Z names: manfoo7`` Subfusc sytse schoppenhauer justinmcp dxtr Grue` rewzn funnel renard_ bhyde` Ober thomas redline6561 jeaye galdor eagleflo ivan\ lifenoodles_ ThePhoeron tokik shifty779 joast wglb` ``Erik salva Colleen copec XachX eMBee SHODAN alex6407 replcated edk sbryant |3b| swflint isoraqathedh victor_lowther endou_________ cojy_ guaqua john-mcaleely @p_l Plazma gensym arrdem z0d edran_ cpt_nemo larme Takumo zickzackv eak misv Tuxedo oGMo motumla_
2015-05-16T05:38:19Z names: Rudolph-Miller_ luis danlentz nisstyre bege quasisane rvirding ggherdov snafuchs moomin-aba___ _death Mandus The_third_man sjl finnrobi_ yeltzooo9 qlkzy Fade klltkr_ j0ni RazWelles jayne Borbus antoszka xristos abbe samebchase phadthai Blkt @fe[nl]ix ircbrowse brent80_plow sepi wenincode Neet pok drmeister jsnell_ sfa_ zbigniew mood kini sivoais gabot les trig-ger dfrank honkfestival kalzz stux|RC tokenrove dlowe bytecrawler yauz billstclair sellout-
2015-05-16T05:38:19Z names: birk tmh_ rj-code zymurgy roscoe_tw Cheery wolf_mozart p_l|back1p brandonz_ metaf5 PuercoPop lpaste brucem doppioslash
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2015-05-16T05:57:23Z names: ccl-logbot Davidbrcz kovrik cosmicexplorer dmiles_afk pacon3 A205B064 emaczen kami DrWat White_Flame a2015 setheus Petit_Dejeuner Denommus joneshf-laptop kcj ggole gingerale Karl_Dscc jtz smokeink beach pyon idafyaid singularity_1 wemeetagain sz0 ndrei cirklo keen____ theos zacharias_ jdz cyphase oleo_ f3lp aap_ joga voidlily x1n4u Oladon wooden bb010g vsync milosn defaultxr vhost- antgreen Patzy impulse leafybasil PinealGlandOptic edgar-rft robot-beethoven
2015-05-16T05:57:23Z names: tkd JokesOnYou77 sakes ssake devon JuanDaugherty gniourf_gniourf Bike clog alexherbo2 Jesin ASau psy_ eli akersof solyd kvsari MrWoohoo rtra _sjs DruidGreeneyes knobo happy-dude BitPuffin|osx specbot minion araujo yasha9 adlai d4ryus hitecnologys thodg quazimodo moei Intensity loz djinni` gigetoo jewel salv0 stepnem ahungry cmatei PlasmaStar russell-- Longlius lemonpepper24_ haasn Zotan rvchangue_ Walex scharan kjeldahl TristamWrk ktt9 MoALTz tristero
2015-05-16T05:57:23Z names: gniourf taij33n- marvi agumonkey newcup hyoyoung mtd karswell H4ns yeticry ronh- trinque CrazyEddy bjorkintosh someone bipt cyraxjoe farhaven eazar001 dfox diginet trn kephra GGMethos dan64 jasom yorick rk[1]_ smull failproofshark zyoung tessier wyan xan__ nopf rotty xificurC ferada Cthulhux jrm NaNDude aeth constantinexvi cross pinterface froggey nydel TeMPOraL dim arrsim mearnsh aerique AeroNotix vlnx K1rk AntiSpamMeta EnergyCoffee ft daimrod zaquest
2015-05-16T05:57:23Z names: fikusz Ralt dsp_ yang anunnaki Tordek Neptu alchemis7 splittist radioninja_work vert2 ir2ivps sharkz mingvs kbtr_ phf emma killmaster bthom2 nowhere_man_ Xof mikaelj ecraven c74d nicdev tsumetai schjetne lb5tr christoph_debian srcerer theBlackDragon peccu vaporatorius Xach foom cods ec\ jself_ gko heurist jonh flip214 Oddity ivan4th Tristam hratsimihah housel ski ramus viaken Zhivago seg `micro mburke bobbysmith007 Natch Khisanth peterhil backupthrick
2015-05-16T05:57:23Z names: stopbyte nitro_idiot_ capitaomorte` sword` troydm drdo CEnnis91 freehck __main__ mathrick ineiros ozzloy dilated_dinosaur josteink GuilOooo Posterdati katco faheem decent michaelreid s1n4 otwieracz loke johs jackc- akkad lemoinem kanru cibs m_zr0 nightshade427 whartung lancetw lieven pillton tomaw oconnore jlarocco_work axion sshirokov nightfly Kruppe cmbntr Odin- musegarden2 jackdaniel tuturto gz pchrist d4gg4d j_king munge` SAL9000 NhanH sigjuice
2015-05-16T05:57:23Z names: manfoo7`` Subfusc sytse schoppenhauer justinmcp dxtr Grue` rewzn funnel renard_ bhyde` Ober thomas z0d edran_ cpt_nemo larme Takumo zickzackv eak misv Tuxedo oGMo motumla_ Rudolph-Miller_ luis danlentz nisstyre bege quasisane rvirding ggherdov snafuchs moomin-aba___ _death Mandus The_third_man sjl finnrobi_ yeltzooo9 qlkzy Fade klltkr_ j0ni RazWelles jayne Borbus antoszka xristos abbe samebchase phadthai Blkt @fe[nl]ix ircbrowse brent80_plow sepi wenincode
2015-05-16T05:57:23Z names: Neet pok drmeister jsnell_ sfa_ zbigniew mood kini sivoais gabot les trig-ger dfrank honkfestival kalzz stux|RC tokenrove dlowe bytecrawler yauz billstclair sellout- birk tmh_ rj-code zymurgy roscoe_tw Cheery wolf_mozart p_l|back1p brandonz_ metaf5 PuercoPop lpaste brucem doppioslash arrdem gensym Plazma @p_l john-mcaleely guaqua cojy_ endou_________ victor_lowther isoraqathedh swflint |3b| sbryant edk replcated alex6407 SHODAN eMBee XachX copec Colleen
2015-05-16T05:57:23Z names: salva ``Erik wglb` joast shifty779 tokik ThePhoeron lifenoodles_ ivan\ eagleflo galdor jeaye redline6561
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2015-05-16T06:35:11Z PuercoPop: katco: you can use cl-interpol instead of writing your own, just (enable-interpol-syntax) and then #?'this is "my" string'
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2015-05-16T07:16:44Z beach: YAY!  Phase 1 of SICL bootstrapping is complete.  I now have a SICL first-class global environment in which all the MOP classes are defined, and also all the slot accessors of those classes.
2015-05-16T07:17:31Z beach: Those classes are ordinary host standard classes, but the have all the right slots in them and all the right accessors.
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2015-05-16T07:20:19Z beach: Next, I will implement the class initialization protocol for those MOP classes.  Well, it's already implemented, but I need to load the files in that first-class global environment.
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2015-05-16T07:25:53Z Oladon: JokesOnYou77: It works!
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2015-05-16T07:48:59Z wbooze: morning
2015-05-16T07:49:17Z H4ns: is #() legal common lisp reader syntax?
2015-05-16T07:49:23Z wbooze: yes
2015-05-16T07:49:30Z wbooze: it's an array designator
2015-05-16T07:49:55Z H4ns: wbooze: i get that.  it is just that clozure cl barfs on it.
2015-05-16T07:50:07Z wbooze: (make-array 3) => #(0 0 0)
2015-05-16T07:50:14Z wbooze: ah
2015-05-16T07:50:16Z H4ns: ah, wait:  #4() is what makes ccl choke
2015-05-16T07:50:20Z wbooze: i have no idea about clozure
2015-05-16T07:50:47Z H4ns: so my question was: is #4() legal common lisp reader syntax?
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2015-05-16T07:55:31Z H4ns: both clisp and clozure cl don't like #4(), so i wonder whether they are buggy or whether the syntax is illegal.
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2015-05-16T07:58:52Z beach: "The consequences are undefined if the unsigned decimal integer is non-zero and number of objects supplied before the closing ) is zero."
2015-05-16T07:59:03Z ehu: H4ns: I'm thinking it's illegal: you may specify fewer than the unsigned integer elements, but in that case the last element is used to fill the remainder of the vector. that implies at least one element, I would say?
2015-05-16T07:59:21Z beach: clhs 2.4.8.3
2015-05-16T07:59:21Z specbot: Sharpsign Left-Parenthesis: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhc.htm
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2015-05-16T07:59:53Z wbooze: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/f_set__1.htm#set-dispatch-macro-character
2015-05-16T08:00:06Z wbooze: obviousyl it is allowed
2015-05-16T08:00:46Z wbooze: as long as it is a dispatch-macro-character
2015-05-16T08:01:13Z wbooze: or as long as there's a dispatch-macro-character associated with it i mean.....
2015-05-16T08:01:19Z beach: wbooze: I think H4ns is talking about the standard dispatch macro character #(.
2015-05-16T08:01:21Z H4ns: beach: thank you!
2015-05-16T08:01:53Z beach: H4ns: Anytime! :)
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2015-05-16T08:03:21Z H4ns: beach: i've credited you in the book review for edi's lisp recipes
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2015-05-16T08:04:03Z beach: H4ns: Oh?  What did I do?
2015-05-16T08:04:28Z wbooze: #3(1 2 3 4) => (1 2 3)
2015-05-16T08:04:31Z wbooze: in sbcl
2015-05-16T08:04:33Z H4ns: beach: you pointed out why #4() is illegal
2015-05-16T08:04:43Z beach: Heh, OK.
2015-05-16T08:05:02Z wbooze: sb-impl::sharp-left-paren
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2015-05-16T08:06:02Z beach: wbooze: It would be great if you would read the Common Lisp HyperSpec page.
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2015-05-16T08:12:47Z wbooze: i did
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2015-05-16T09:01:14Z jackdaniel: ehu: I've submitted patches to utils-kt and cells and abcl should load cells now after quicklisp libs update
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2015-05-16T09:25:40Z salv0: is there any function in CL able to dump any CLOS object in an human friendly manner? similar to the inspector but non-interactive
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2015-05-16T09:28:18Z kami: salv0: (describe my-instance)
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2015-05-16T09:29:01Z salv0: kami: thanks!
2015-05-16T09:29:06Z kami: yw
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2015-05-16T10:34:10Z ehu: jackdaniel: thanks! that's good news!
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2015-05-16T10:45:31Z gniourf: if I have a function that outputs to a stream, say (defun writer (stream) format stream "hello~%") and a function that reads from a stream, say (defun reader (stream) (read-line stream)), how can I pipe the two together?
2015-05-16T10:45:57Z gniourf: (there are obvious missing parens in writer, sorry)
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2015-05-16T10:48:03Z gniourf: is there a macro like (do-some-magic (my-stream writer) (read-line my-stream))?
2015-05-16T10:48:09Z beach: clhs make-two-way-stream
2015-05-16T10:48:09Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_two.htm
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2015-05-16T10:48:44Z gniourf: I've seen this already, but I remain clueless as to how to use it :(
2015-05-16T10:48:59Z beach: See the example.
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2015-05-16T10:51:03Z gniourf: but the example uses (with-input-from-string (in "input...") and I don't see how to use this with writer
2015-05-16T10:51:35Z beach: It also uses WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING.
2015-05-16T10:51:43Z gniourf: yes
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2015-05-16T10:52:24Z gniourf: I'm still clueless
2015-05-16T10:52:51Z jackdaniel: concatenate-streams?
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2015-05-16T10:53:48Z gniourf: ?
2015-05-16T10:54:15Z jackdaniel: flexi-streams (i think) provides function concatenate-streams
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2015-05-16T10:55:23Z gniourf: so you're saying there's no easy straightforward way?
2015-05-16T10:55:46Z H4ns: gniourf: there is not
2015-05-16T10:55:52Z gniourf: ok
2015-05-16T10:56:28Z gniourf: so far I was able to make a macro that slurps the output stream from reader in a string and feeds it to writer
2015-05-16T10:56:37Z gniourf: so this is a good approach?
2015-05-16T10:56:43Z H4ns: gniourf: why do you need a macro for that?
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2015-05-16T10:57:05Z H4ns: gniourf: the basic issue with what you're trying is that it requires concurrency to be useful, and concurrency is not specified in common lisp
2015-05-16T10:57:19Z gniourf: yes, that's what I figured out…
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2015-05-16T10:58:09Z jackdaniel: lparallel provides so-called channels, but they're not streams
2015-05-16T10:58:10Z gniourf: I need a macro to mimick with-open-file, replacing the filename by my writer function
2015-05-16T10:58:45Z H4ns: gniourf: no, you need a specialized stream that does what you need.  the macro that you want to use is called WITH-OPEN and it is part of the standard
2015-05-16T10:58:59Z gniourf: really? let me check that
2015-05-16T10:59:11Z H4ns: gniourf: look at grey streams, the sbcl documentation has some useful examples.  also cltl2 speaks about them iirc.
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2015-05-16T11:03:13Z gniourf: can't find with-open macro, there's only with-open-file and with-open-stream
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2015-05-16T11:07:05Z H4ns: WITH-OPEN-STREAM, sorry
2015-05-16T11:08:25Z gniourf: ok, makes sense
2015-05-16T11:09:19Z gniourf: yet, I don't really see how to use it in my case
2015-05-16T11:09:58Z H4ns: you need to implement a stream class that provides the behavior, then you can use them like file streams.
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2015-05-16T11:20:40Z protist: odd...the account that has cl-mongo on github had activity 14 hours ago...but has not closed an issue on cl-mongo is 2 years
2015-05-16T11:20:52Z protist: I guess it is no longer maintained?
2015-05-16T11:21:04Z protist: in* two years
2015-05-16T11:21:34Z gniourf: ok, more specifically this is what I had so far: http://ix.io/iAp
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2015-05-16T11:24:11Z protist: yeah...bunch of forks farther along...but the fons one is on Quicklisp https://github.com/fons/cl-mongo/network
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2015-05-16T13:01:54Z haom: hello, does anybody know how to define new named characters, like #\space and #newline?
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2015-05-16T13:11:41Z jackdaniel: haom: these are not "named" characters, it's just their readable representation
2015-05-16T13:11:49Z jackdaniel: there is no such thing as named character
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2015-05-16T13:13:55Z haom: if I wanted to name a non-printable character thats not convered yet, how could I do that?
2015-05-16T13:14:34Z haom: something like (defchar code '#\mychar)
2015-05-16T13:15:14Z jackdaniel: characters are defined by standards - and characters are independed from their codes
2015-05-16T13:17:05Z haom: there are characters not defined by lisp standards yet, and I'd like to define some of them for my library.
2015-05-16T13:17:29Z jackdaniel: but you can make your own dispatching macro, like #~my-character-name
2015-05-16T13:17:49Z haom: right now, i just map keywords to codes, but I'd like to make them like the standard characters like #\newline.
2015-05-16T13:18:04Z Shinmera: "lisp standards"? What?
2015-05-16T13:18:30Z haom: #\newline and #\space are standard characters defined in the standard.
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2015-05-16T13:20:23Z Shinmera: No, they're character /names/.
2015-05-16T13:21:02Z jackdaniel: haom: what character isn't covered in lisp implementation of your choice?
2015-05-16T13:21:52Z haom: all typical function keys.
2015-05-16T13:22:09Z haom: arrow up, F12, and so on.
2015-05-16T13:22:29Z jackdaniel: keyboard keys aren't characters
2015-05-16T13:22:32Z Shinmera: What characters you have available depends on the /character set/. Their code depends on the /character encoding/. Neither of these things are specified by the CLHS.
2015-05-16T13:23:12Z haom: jackdaniel: newline also isnt a character, but it is treated as one.
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2015-05-16T13:23:30Z jackdaniel: newline is a character
2015-05-16T13:23:38Z Shinmera: clhs glossary/newline
2015-05-16T13:23:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_n.htm#newline
2015-05-16T13:23:42Z haom: it is a movement command.
2015-05-16T13:24:16Z jackdaniel: it's so called special character
2015-05-16T13:24:18Z jackdaniel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newline
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2015-05-16T13:24:48Z haom: yes, then my question would be how to define additional special characters.
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2015-05-16T13:25:15Z Shinmera: Characters are defined by the encoding.
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2015-05-16T13:25:20Z Shinmera: err, character set
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2015-05-16T13:25:37Z Shinmera: If you want to add your own charset, write it up, and add support to your implementations for it.
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2015-05-16T13:25:52Z jackdaniel: haom: you have to define encoding - there is no portable way to do  this
2015-05-16T13:26:16Z jackdaniel: ecl for example has (ext:make-encoding mapping)
2015-05-16T13:26:43Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: An encoding and a character set are two distinct things.
2015-05-16T13:27:31Z haom: ok, thanks, I'll take a look at that.
2015-05-16T13:27:53Z haom: but it does sound like more effort than i hoped.
2015-05-16T13:28:16Z haom: i just get codes from the keyboard, and want to name them.
2015-05-16T13:28:39Z jackdaniel: haom: use hashtable
2015-05-16T13:28:59Z haom: i am right now.
2015-05-16T13:30:02Z haom: i map keywords to codes, but i hoped that i can do something like (print #\up-arrow), so that the standard io functions treat them as chars.
2015-05-16T13:30:47Z Shinmera: For that to work they'd have to be in the character set. Usually the character set is an ASCII descendant or Unicode, which do not have characters for that.
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2015-05-16T13:39:27Z White_Flame: unicode does have a character for that: http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2191/index.htm
2015-05-16T13:39:35Z White_Flame: though #\upwards-arrow isn't recognized in SBCL
2015-05-16T13:39:46Z Shinmera: White_Flame: that's not the same as "pressing the up key"
2015-05-16T13:39:55Z Shinmera: That's a character representing the upwards arrow.
2015-05-16T13:40:02Z White_Flame: oh, cursor-up, yeah
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2015-05-16T15:01:35Z Oladon: jok
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2015-05-16T15:17:41Z wbooze: hello
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2015-05-16T15:18:17Z beach: Hello wbooze.
2015-05-16T15:18:32Z wbooze: hello beach
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2015-05-16T15:19:48Z wbooze: how are you ?
2015-05-16T15:21:03Z beach: Me?  Always fine.
2015-05-16T15:21:25Z wbooze: fine fine :)
2015-05-16T15:22:35Z wbooze: heh
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2015-05-16T15:30:30Z Zohan: is format Turing Complete ?
2015-05-16T15:30:46Z Shinmera: clhs ~/
2015-05-16T15:30:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ced.htm
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2015-05-16T15:31:06Z Shinmera: Why does it matter though?
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2015-05-16T15:32:26Z Zohan: ok, so launching lisp functions make it Turing complete but isn't it cheating ?
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2015-05-16T15:32:54Z Shinmera: Depends on your idea of "turing complete" and "cheating".
2015-05-16T15:32:59Z Zohan: It doesn't matter really but I want to know
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2015-05-16T15:35:37Z Shinmera: Apparently not enough to stick around.
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2015-05-16T15:55:13Z failproofshark: hello
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2015-05-16T15:55:26Z beach: Hello failproofshark.
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2015-05-16T15:58:23Z failproofshark: how's it going beach ?
2015-05-16T15:58:35Z beach: failproofshark: Always fine.  Thanks.
2015-05-16T15:59:09Z failproofshark: good
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2015-05-16T16:10:40Z hitecnologys: Is there any way I could temporarily pause thread execution except for signaling condition and then waiting in signal handler until thread is "resumed"?
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2015-05-16T16:43:58Z emaczen: How do I enable auto-completion in the CCL IDE?
2015-05-16T16:44:27Z emaczen: I believe that I have seen some auto-completion sources in contrib modules, but I would think there is some initialization file like a .emacs
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2015-05-16T16:47:52Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: bt:thread-yield? cl:sleep? bt:condition-wait? What kind of "pausing" do you need?
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2015-05-16T16:50:25Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I need to be able to interrupt execution of random thread which possibly doesn't even know it's being interrupted. In other words, I'm implementing preemtion for task scheduler.
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2015-05-16T16:50:58Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: of course I could force threads to cooperate but that'd be not very portable and flexible.
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2015-05-16T16:52:11Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: Sounds quite nasty in any case.
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2015-05-16T16:52:55Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: right, that's why I'm trying to research how it could be done first to decide whether I should take another approach or not.
2015-05-16T16:52:59Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: You could try to do it with a combination of bt:interrupt-thread and bt:condition-wait, but I can't say how good of an idea that would be.
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2015-05-16T16:53:26Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: yeah, that's what I came up with too.
2015-05-16T16:53:56Z Shinmera: Otherwise you'd have to force some kind of execution model where the thread always boils down to a loop with a variable check in place.
2015-05-16T16:54:24Z hitecnologys: That's what I have now. Horrible, horrible way, I could say.
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2015-05-16T16:54:43Z hitecnologys: Sometimes thread hangs waiting for input and that's it. Too much to take care of for a user.
2015-05-16T16:54:45Z Shinmera: interrupting isn't exactly not horrible either though.
2015-05-16T16:54:52Z hitecnologys: Right.
2015-05-16T16:54:58Z Shinmera: I've run into loads of situations where I couldn't interrupt or terminate threads anymore.
2015-05-16T16:55:16Z hitecnologys: But that would at least let me make computer do the thing in stead of me.
2015-05-16T16:55:35Z hitecnologys: Which is what I'm trying to achieve.
2015-05-16T16:56:14Z hitecnologys: Well, if thread doesn't respond to interrupt it's killed.
2015-05-16T16:56:34Z hitecnologys: That's nasty but letting other tasks run is more important.
2015-05-16T16:56:50Z Shinmera: Killing doesn't always succeed either in my experience.
2015-05-16T16:56:57Z hitecnologys: How come?
2015-05-16T16:57:23Z Shinmera: I don't know. I just distinctly having situations where threads would continue running no matter how many times I tired to kill it.
2015-05-16T16:57:31Z Shinmera: *distinctly remember
2015-05-16T16:58:06Z hitecnologys: Heh.
2015-05-16T16:58:09Z hitecnologys: That's nasty.
2015-05-16T16:58:22Z Shinmera: I can't say what I was doing wrong or what was really going on, so all I have to offer is the above FUD.
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2015-05-16T17:00:13Z Shinmera has a long standing to do item to rewrite Colleen to no longer rely on locks.
2015-05-16T17:00:18Z hitecnologys: I guess I should probably forget about preemption then and implement some kind of task quantization so that I could execute complicated tasks in small quick-running pieces.
2015-05-16T17:00:39Z hitecnologys: Does that sound sane?
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2015-05-16T17:00:57Z Shinmera: If you can do it, that sounds like a much more promising approach.
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2015-05-16T17:01:48Z hitecnologys: The problem is that I want it to run constant time in worst case which is hardly achievable this way.
2015-05-16T17:02:06Z Shinmera: Still, I would do some tests first to see if you can't get interruptions to work.
2015-05-16T17:02:10Z hitecnologys: And it would probably require additional care from user which is what I'm trying to avoid.
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2015-05-16T17:02:38Z hitecnologys: Right. Would probably start with testing.
2015-05-16T17:02:46Z abbe: hi
2015-05-16T17:02:55Z wbooze: hello
2015-05-16T17:02:59Z Oladon: 'lo abbe
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2015-05-16T17:03:26Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: anyway, thanks for help. I'll report back once I'm done, if I get any significant results.
2015-05-16T17:03:37Z Shinmera: Sure, count me interested.
2015-05-16T17:03:46Z abbe: I've quite a few structs, and would like to generate functions which parses raw data into those structures. I've a basic code like this: https://pastebin.com/167bxHvk
2015-05-16T17:04:19Z abbe: but it fails for reason mentioned in the paste. wondering what's the best way to go about this.
2015-05-16T17:04:45Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: basically, the goal is to make the program do all the magic and allow users to only write code which is then fairly paralleled across workers, if possible.
2015-05-16T17:05:01Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: this is my childhood dream — seamless multitasking.
2015-05-16T17:05:25Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: Seems like a lot of people's dream to be honest. Are you sure there isn't already something that does this?
2015-05-16T17:05:58Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: not for Lisp.
2015-05-16T17:06:20Z wbooze: hmmmm
2015-05-16T17:06:20Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: at least it's not easily googleable.
2015-05-16T17:06:35Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: Have you looked at STM (STMX for CL)?
2015-05-16T17:07:34Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I did. That's what I'm using and I'm very happy with it. The thing about STM is that it's quite low-level so I'm implementing higher level abstraction on top of STMX.
2015-05-16T17:07:42Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: I see.
2015-05-16T17:07:56Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: STM is close to what I want, it just needs a little bit more sugar.
2015-05-16T17:08:09Z Shinmera: I wouldn't know of something that does this already, but I'd be interested in using it.
2015-05-16T17:09:22Z hitecnologys: I hope I've got enough patience and knowledge not to dump it in the middle of the way this time. =P
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2015-05-16T17:09:55Z hitecnologys: The task is hard, I fear it's a little bit too much for a undergraduate.
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2015-05-16T17:10:21Z hitecnologys: But, well, it's not like I'm limited in time...
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2015-05-16T17:44:48Z adlai: hitecnologys: https://github.com/adlai/scalpl/blob/master/actor.lisp is my step in that direction
2015-05-16T17:45:44Z adlai: sorry, https://github.com/zkat/chanl/blob/master/src/actors.lisp
2015-05-16T17:46:37Z hitecnologys: adlai: I assume it's lock-based?
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2015-05-16T17:47:27Z adlai: CSP, although the default channel implementation uses locks
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2015-05-16T17:47:49Z hitecnologys: I see.
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2015-05-16T17:48:33Z hitecnologys: Well, I'm already familiar with part of your actors.lisp from method combinator thing. I'll guess I'll study the rest then, thanks.
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2015-05-16T17:51:51Z adlai: how'd the typespec method combination end up?
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2015-05-16T18:01:53Z hitecnologys: Good.
2015-05-16T18:01:57Z hitecnologys: Seems to work.
2015-05-16T18:02:07Z hitecnologys: Your example was very helpful, thanks.
2015-05-16T18:02:37Z hitecnologys: Though, I haven't yet profiled it to see how efficient method combination approach is.
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2015-05-16T18:26:42Z madnificent: if i set Hunchentoot's return-code to +http-not-found+ (that's a 404), then Hunchentoot will host a custom page indicating the resource could not be found.  is there a way to supply the body directly, rather than through that system?  i'm trying to implement jsonapi.org and these responses are in my way.
2015-05-16T18:28:02Z jackdaniel: madnificent: maybe use handler which constantly answers T?
2015-05-16T18:28:08Z jackdaniel: if nothing is match
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2015-05-16T18:29:21Z madnificent: jackdaniel: I have a matching handler.  I explicitly set the return code to be 404
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2015-05-16T18:30:11Z madnificent: jackdaniel: in this case, when the id of the requested resource did not correspond with an object in the database.  eg: if /posts/42 is requested, but no such post exist.
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2015-05-16T18:32:20Z Xach: This has been discussed on the hunchentoot list before, but I don't remember the resolution.
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2015-05-16T18:33:59Z Shinmera: I never had a problem sending my own content on error pages, but then again I don't use hunchentoot's easy* system.
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2015-05-16T18:34:51Z madnificent: Shinmera: this is indeed in an easy-handler
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2015-05-16T18:35:32Z Shinmera: What I do with hunchentoot is just set hunchentoot:*dispatch-table* to a list containing a single function that does all my dispatching for me.
2015-05-16T18:35:44Z madnificent: Shinmera: it's with 'create-regex-dispatcher, actually.  i suppose that uses the same internals though.
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2015-05-16T18:39:39Z madnificent: Shinmera: looking at the code, i don't see where this would differ from your approach.  the regex-dispatcher simply invokes the handler if the regex matches...  is there any configuration you're setting?
2015-05-16T18:40:57Z Shinmera: madnificent: No. https://github.com/Shirakumo/radiance-drivers/blob/master/i-hunchentoot/i-hunchentoot.lisp#L114
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2015-05-16T18:46:22Z madnificent: Shinmera: and 404 bodies get correctly forwarded by that?
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2015-05-16T18:46:35Z Shinmera: Yes.
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2015-05-16T18:48:05Z Shinmera: You can see it in action http://user.tymoon.eu/whatnot
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2015-05-16T18:49:58Z madnificent: Shinmera: interesting :)
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2015-05-16T18:56:36Z Shinmera: madnificent: The actual error handling doesn't do anything but set the fields on the dummy request object that the driver then translates back to hunchentoot-land. So yes, it works fine.
2015-05-16T18:56:48Z Shinmera: ( https://github.com/Shirakumo/radiance-core/blob/master/conditions.lisp#L107 )
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2015-05-16T19:02:16Z madnificent: Shinmera: I'll take a peek at it later.  First food, then code :)
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2015-05-16T19:02:24Z madnificent: Shinmera: thank you for the pointers
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2015-05-16T19:13:53Z Shinmera: madnificent: The whole system is quite complicated, but the essence of the hunchentoot interaction is in the i-hunchentoot.lisp post-handler function.
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2015-05-16T19:25:06Z katco: is there a way to export an unexported function in another package using asdf?
2015-05-16T19:25:24Z Shinmera: What would ASDF have to do with that?
2015-05-16T19:25:30Z Shinmera: clhs export
2015-05-16T19:25:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_export.htm
2015-05-16T19:25:48Z katco: Shinmera: <-- lisp newbie. i dunno, that seems to be the place i'm managing dependencies?
2015-05-16T19:26:16Z katco: Shinmera: when i use that, and then ql my project, it complains
2015-05-16T19:26:43Z Shinmera: You generally shouldn't manipulate other people's packages.
2015-05-16T19:26:56Z Shinmera: If you have to use an unexported symbol, use the double colons.
2015-05-16T19:27:05Z Shinmera: as in package::foo instead of package:foo
2015-05-16T19:27:09Z katco: Shinmera: doh, that's what i needed. ty
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2015-05-16T19:30:43Z katco: Shinmera: i'm following this blog post for cl-json: https://julien.danjou.info/blog/2013/cl-postmodern-dao-json
2015-05-16T19:31:01Z katco: Shinmera: but i wanted to invert the package... e.g. define these methods while in my package
2015-05-16T19:31:08Z katco: Shinmera: (see last example block in that post)
2015-05-16T19:32:19Z Shinmera: I'm not sure I follow.
2015-05-16T19:32:34Z Shinmera: Which method, the encode-json one?
2015-05-16T19:32:42Z katco: Shinmera: yes
2015-05-16T19:33:12Z katco: Shinmera: because i'm using several types/methods from my package, i didn't want to export all of those just to define my custom encode-json method within cl-json
2015-05-16T19:33:21Z Shinmera: (in-package :my-package) (defmethod json:encode-json ...) should work fine then, no?
2015-05-16T19:33:36Z Shinmera: The style in that tutorial seems very sketchy to me.
2015-05-16T19:33:55Z katco: Shinmera: hm, ok duly noted. i wonder if there's a better way?
2015-05-16T19:34:10Z katco: Shinmera: i just want to say "cl-json, when you see this type, do this instead."
2015-05-16T19:34:20Z Shinmera: And you can?
2015-05-16T19:34:41Z Shinmera: I mean, just do the DEFMETHOD while in your package, but prefix the ENCODE-JSON with the package name as shown above.
2015-05-16T19:35:03Z katco: Shinmera: ok i'll try that
2015-05-16T19:36:45Z katco: Shinmera: yay, that seems to work :)
2015-05-16T19:37:07Z katco: Shinmera: ty for the help
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2015-05-16T19:37:55Z jackdaniel: is there any eta of new cffi release?
2015-05-16T19:38:19Z Shinmera: katco: Maybe reading https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/265 will clear some things up
2015-05-16T19:38:46Z katco: Shinmera: oooh ty
2015-05-16T19:38:50Z katco: Shinmera: i'll give that a read
2015-05-16T19:39:01Z Shinmera: At least I hope it will. I haven't heard any feedback about it so far.
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2015-05-16T20:17:17Z ZombieChicken: Does CL have anything that would resemble a pointer?
2015-05-16T20:18:12Z LiamH: locative?
2015-05-16T20:18:39Z LiamH: not CL though
2015-05-16T20:18:42Z jackdaniel: ZombieChicken: check informatigo packages, there was pointer implementation
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2015-05-16T20:21:38Z ZombieChicken: ty
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2015-05-16T20:38:19Z emaczen: Running M-x slime is not working on my mac -- I'm using emacsformacosx
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2015-05-16T20:43:24Z drmeister: I wrote a blog post on Clasp's new tagging scheme - I welcome any thoughts:  https://drmeister.wordpress.com/2015/05/16/tagged-pointers-and-immediate-fixnums-characters-and-single-floats-in-clasp/
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2015-05-16T20:46:07Z Xach: yay
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2015-05-16T21:11:44Z Walex: drmeister: seems vaguely reasonable
2015-05-16T21:12:32Z emaczen: Is ther any documented cases of slime not working on mac? It worked for me before but I just reinstalled Yosemite.
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2015-05-16T21:18:44Z madnificent: Shinmera: what i don't get about the hunchentoot situation is why my installation does something different than yours.  it seems very similar.  i can do the dispatching manually, but unless the primary dispatching function is treated in a special way, i don't see why mine would serve the 404 page and yours wouldn't.
2015-05-16T21:19:35Z Shinmera: madnificent: I'm busy with my weekly Movie Night, so I can't go find out right now. As of now I don't know what's going on beyond the point of "you can make it work".
2015-05-16T21:21:13Z madnificent: Shinmera: i wasn't trying to push you.  enjoy Movie Night!
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2015-05-16T21:21:58Z drmeister: Walex: Thanks
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2015-05-16T21:30:08Z adlai: hitecnologys: my guess, wildly inefficient :)
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2015-05-16T21:34:46Z madnificent: Shinmera, Xach: in case the question arizes again: upgrade hunchentoot. <done>  thanks for the pointers and the help.
2015-05-16T21:35:11Z Shinmera: madnificent: How old was that version? I've never had such an issue in the two years I've used it.
2015-05-16T21:35:45Z madnificent: Shinmera: old box :)  That's about the time-frame I believe.
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2015-05-16T21:36:00Z madnificent: stumpwm upgrade-fear I suppose
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2015-05-16T21:45:34Z chuchana: emaczen: have you reinstalled slime?
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2015-05-16T21:49:00Z drmeister: When I create a class using CLOS - is the compiler invoked?
2015-05-16T21:49:17Z Bike: might be, might not be, depends on the implementation.
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2015-05-16T21:49:42Z chuchana: emaczen: if you have not installed it after installing yosemite, I suggest you install it via Quicklisp. I first installed it as an emacs package and there were some problems with it.
2015-05-16T21:51:06Z drmeister: Part of the Clasp startup procedure involves creating the Common Lisp class hierarchy.  It takes about 17 seconds to create them. I'm wondering if it's the compiler that is responsible
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2015-05-16T21:53:10Z Bike: ...well, that depends on whether your functions are written to use the compiler, of course
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2015-05-16T22:36:25Z emaczen: Is there autocompletion in the CCL IDE for mac osx?
2015-05-16T22:37:15Z emaczen: If I want to make cocoa apps, also if I could just use SLIME that would be great since I use slime-company for my autocompletion there.
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2015-05-16T22:47:22Z emaczen: for anyone else looking, completions are bound to M/
2015-05-16T22:48:24Z emaczen: Now the question is, how can I rebind keys similar to emacs keybindings.
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2015-05-16T22:59:00Z drmeister: jackdaniel: Are you still online?
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2015-05-16T22:59:49Z diginet: so, this is something that has confused me for quite awhile: Lispers especially (but other programmers too) like to throw around the term "DSL" a whole lot. Increasingly, it appears to be applied to anything and everything. Now, personally, I always thought of a DSL as something like Awk: a language with a very specific purpose. However, I've looked at a lot of stuff that people call "DSLs" and I just can't see how these are separate "languages" in any meani
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2015-05-16T23:00:34Z Bike: your message cut off after "in any meaning".
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2015-05-16T23:01:50Z diginet: . . .and I just can't see how these are separate "languages" in any meaningful sense of the word. Am I missing something?
2015-05-16T23:01:55Z diginet: Bike: thanks
2015-05-16T23:02:53Z diginet: like I read stuff all the time like "lisp is actually a metalanguage for designing little languages" but is that *really* true in practice? It just seems to me to be really nebulous platitude. Things I see described as "little languages" or "DSLs" is stuff that seems to me would just be a library
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2015-05-16T23:04:43Z diginet: and perhaps more importantly, this is always taken, unquestioned, as a *good* thing. Even if we assume it were true, I fail to see how having to learn or write a new language for every little problem is a good thing.
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2015-05-16T23:06:27Z diginet: I like lisp, but stuff like that just comes across, to me, as pointless drivel
2015-05-16T23:09:05Z Bike: language activism is prone to drivel, but i don't have any substantial response to your specific point
2015-05-16T23:09:24Z diginet: Bike: do you know what I'm talking about though?
2015-05-16T23:09:36Z diginet: Ruby people make similar claims a whole lot too
2015-05-16T23:09:51Z Bike: well, a bit
2015-05-16T23:10:08Z Bike: i prefer the characterization of "growing the language" and stuff, just throwin' in macros to make it seem natural to do whatever it is you're doing
2015-05-16T23:10:37Z drmeister: Does anyone know whether or how ECL invokes the compiler when you define a CLOS class?
2015-05-16T23:11:00Z diginet: yeah, of course. Like for example, I was writing some macros for Lua the other day to easy writing modules, and yet I've seen equally trivial things be referred to as DSLs
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2015-05-16T23:12:03Z diginet: or like, for example, there's a web framework in Perl called Dancer, and the documentation continually refers to the "dancer DSL." Except that what exactly that is, is never specified.
2015-05-16T23:12:38Z diginet: It makes no use of macros AFAIK, the syntax is perl, the semantics are perl. How is using a particular framework coding in a "separate language?"
2015-05-16T23:13:57Z Bike: well, using different vocabulary with the same grammar is kind of different-language-y. but yeah it's pretty buzzwordish.
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2015-05-16T23:15:50Z Shinmera doesn't like the term DSL for lisp programs either
2015-05-16T23:15:58Z diginet: Bike: in a sense, I suppose, but it's a highly unusual use of the word
2015-05-16T23:16:13Z Shinmera: As usual it boils down to what one understands under the term.
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2015-05-16T23:16:32Z diginet: if a "language" has precisely the same semantics as another, then it's just the same thing.
2015-05-16T23:17:02Z Shinmera: If that's what your idea is...
2015-05-16T23:17:10Z Shinmera shrugs
2015-05-16T23:17:11Z diginet: Bike: unusual in the context of programming languages
2015-05-16T23:17:23Z Shinmera: I don't much see the point in fussing over a trivial thing like this
2015-05-16T23:18:08Z diginet: Shinmera: it's symptomatic, IMO, of a cultural problem which exists among functional programming people. Though I will admit, Lispers aren't as bad as Haskellers in that department
2015-05-16T23:18:29Z Shinmera: Luckily this channel isn't really for discussions of culture.
2015-05-16T23:18:32Z diginet: making grand sweeping claims that are, if not wrong, meaningless
2015-05-16T23:18:38Z diginet: Shinmera: fair enough
2015-05-16T23:19:04Z Shinmera: I'd much rather hear about an interesting CL project than fret about what people use buzzwords for
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2015-05-16T23:20:13Z diginet: I suppose, but at the same time, I think language is important. If otherwise useful words become diluted to the point of meaninglessness, it can make communication difficult. Especially when said words are technical terms.
2015-05-16T23:21:26Z Shinmera: Sure, but we aren't an authority on language. We can't tell others to not use a term for whatever it is they're doing.
2015-05-16T23:21:36Z diginet: to give a practical example, "overloading" of the word "language" in this context drowns out actual discussion of implementing  actual languages in Lisp, a worthy topic
2015-05-16T23:22:28Z diginet: yeah, I guess there isn't much that can be done, except to brush up on French and petition the Academie Francaise to ban the term :P
2015-05-16T23:22:56Z Shinmera: We have a couple of French people here.
2015-05-16T23:30:03Z Petit_Dejeuner: That's a start.
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2015-05-16T23:32:16Z Petit_Dejeuner: diginet, If you read this, http://journal.stuffwithstuff.com/2013/07/18/javascript-isnt-scheme/ , you'll get why people would want to say their language has DSLs, and then you'll be prepared to disect this http://www.randomhacks.net/2005/12/03/why-ruby-is-an-acceptable-lisp/
2015-05-16T23:33:35Z zacts: http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/sf/current/index.html <-- a cool book
2015-05-16T23:33:47Z Petit_Dejeuner: dissect*
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2015-05-17T00:08:11Z Shinmera: minion: memo for beach: I wrote a short article about my ideas for the document processing model that we talked about.. last winter, I believe. https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/320
2015-05-17T00:08:11Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-05-17T02:28:12Z drmeister: minion: memo for beach: Could we talk about inlining, compiler macros, binary functions for arithmetic and type inference in Cleavir?  I'd like to start thinking about how I'm going to take advantage of all this now that I have immediate's and tagged pointers.
2015-05-17T02:28:12Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-05-17T02:29:28Z aeth: minion: I've found "they" is the most useful pronoun to use when the pronoun is unknown, at least ime.
2015-05-17T02:29:28Z minion: I've found "they" is the most useful pronoun to use when the pronoun is unknown, at least ime: An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "http://www.cliki.net/I've%20found%20\"they\"%20is%20the%20most%20useful%20pronoun%20to%20use%20when%20the%20pronoun%20is%20unknown%2C%20at%20least%20ime?source" contains illegal character #\" at position 36..
2015-05-17T02:29:36Z aeth: oh a bot.
2015-05-17T02:30:22Z Xach: ugh
2015-05-17T02:31:19Z aeth: IRC bots could fool me all day. If you want to pass a turing test, hire me as a judge.
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2015-05-17T02:44:13Z drmeister: aeth: At least it doesn't have a sexy woman's name.  I've embarrassed myself a couple of times. :-)
2015-05-17T02:45:36Z drmeister: By being extra polite - I mean.
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2015-05-17T02:47:22Z Quadrescence: folks from WA state: there's a lisp meetup on tuesday
2015-05-17T02:47:51Z theos: minion: are you a bot?
2015-05-17T02:47:51Z minion: i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''.
2015-05-17T02:47:57Z theos: :D
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2015-05-17T03:04:02Z katco: if i have an adjustable vector with a fill-pointer, how do i concatenate another vector into it (destructive) without creating a new vector?
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2015-05-17T03:06:45Z Quadrescence: katco, Copy it in manually
2015-05-17T03:07:09Z katco: Quadrescence: aw bummer. there's no destructive concatenate or anything?
2015-05-17T03:08:14Z Quadrescence: katco, (defun concat (adjvec vec) (map nil (lambda (x) (vector-push-extend x adjvec)) vec) adjvec)
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2015-05-17T03:08:56Z katco: Quadrescence: yeah thanks. i used loop
2015-05-17T03:10:08Z Quadrescence: katco, For lists, there's a "destructive concatenate" which is NCONC.
2015-05-17T03:10:17Z Quadrescence: Not such for adjustable vectors.
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2015-05-17T03:10:32Z katco: Quadrescence: hm ok. ty
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2015-05-17T04:32:53Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-05-17T04:32:53Z minion: beach, memo from Shinmera: I wrote a short article about my ideas for the document processing model that we talked about.. last winter, I believe. https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/320
2015-05-17T04:32:53Z minion: beach, memo from drmeister: Could we talk about inlining, compiler macros, binary functions for arithmetic and type inference in Cleavir?  I'd like to start thinking about how I'm going to take advantage of all this now that I have immediate's and tagged pointers.
2015-05-17T04:33:29Z beach: minion: memo for Shinmera: Great!  Reading it now.
2015-05-17T04:33:29Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Shinmera when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-05-17T04:33:41Z beach: drmeister: Sure.  Whenever you like.
2015-05-17T04:34:02Z Oladon: beach: Aren't you popular :)
2015-05-17T04:34:31Z beach: Oladon: More like a PITA.
2015-05-17T04:34:57Z Oladon: beach: heh
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2015-05-17T04:37:20Z drmeister: Hey beach
2015-05-17T04:37:47Z drmeister: Yeah, busy, busy, busy.
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2015-05-17T04:45:01Z drmeister: beach: I also wanted to ask about bootstrapping clos - I think you are working on that.
2015-05-17T04:45:36Z beach: I am, yes.
2015-05-17T04:46:00Z beach: It is working very well.  And I am having a lot of fun.
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2015-05-17T04:46:14Z drmeister: I made some changes to Clasp and fixed EVAL so that it compiles forms before it runs then (rather than interpreting them).  Now the startup time for Clasp is about 20 seconds because when it initializes all of the CLOS classes it takes about 19 seconds to compile all of the forms that ECL CLOS generates when you create classes.
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2015-05-17T04:47:19Z beach: What compiler is used to compile those forms?
2015-05-17T04:47:21Z drmeister: Somehow ECL avoids this at startup.
2015-05-17T04:47:56Z drmeister: Right now it's the bootstrapping compiler - but Cleavir would do it when I use it.
2015-05-17T04:48:10Z beach: OK.
2015-05-17T04:48:44Z beach: I am asking because I have not thought about compilation time at all in the Cleavir compiler.
2015-05-17T04:48:55Z drmeister: It's all just code that should be generated at compile time.  For some reason ECL uses EVAL to compile accessors and method combinations (I believe).
2015-05-17T04:49:07Z drmeister: Yeah, it would be an issue.
2015-05-17T04:49:32Z beach: It is common to use the compiler or EVAL in parts of CLOS.
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2015-05-17T04:50:16Z drmeister: So if that is the case then its forcing compilation at runtime - correct?
2015-05-17T04:50:32Z beach: Yes.
2015-05-17T04:50:53Z drmeister: Somehow ECL avoids this - or their compiler is really fast.
2015-05-17T04:51:12Z drmeister: I'm waiting to talk to jackdaniel about it.
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2015-05-17T04:51:28Z beach: You probably won't see it at normal runtime.
2015-05-17T04:51:53Z beach: Because then it would be compiling an accessor from time to time when some class changes or when a method is added or removed.
2015-05-17T04:52:02Z drmeister: I'm seeing it at load-time.
2015-05-17T04:52:17Z drmeister: It creates about 90 classes and it takes about 19 seconds.
2015-05-17T04:52:23Z beach: I am guessing that you see it at startup time because it is doing everything at once then.
2015-05-17T04:52:36Z drmeister: Yes.
2015-05-17T04:54:05Z drmeister: It seems to me that I should be able to generate the code for these accessors at compile time and build them into image.  But since it calls EVAL, that thwarts me.
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2015-05-17T04:56:49Z drmeister: Could you give me a quick primer on generating code for simple arithmetic?
2015-05-17T04:57:05Z beach: Sure.
2015-05-17T04:57:21Z drmeister: compiler macros, binary addition function, condition to test argument types, type inference, inlining - I have a rough sketch.
2015-05-17T04:57:35Z beach: Do you want to ask question, or do you prefer that I just do the talking?
2015-05-17T04:57:56Z drmeister: How about you do the talking.
2015-05-17T04:58:15Z beach: OK.
2015-05-17T04:58:48Z beach: If you have an N-ary function like + or -, you write a compiler macro to turn it into a bunch of calls to a binary function.
2015-05-17T04:59:29Z beach: That's the only purpose of the compiler macro.
2015-05-17T05:00:01Z beach: Now you must write code for the binary function.  Let's take binary addition as an example.
2015-05-17T05:00:04Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/zjigZhGn
2015-05-17T05:00:31Z drmeister: (macroexpand '(my+ 1 2 3)) -->(BINARY+ 1 (BINARY+ 2 3))
2015-05-17T05:01:04Z beach: You still need the compiler macro, but yes.
2015-05-17T05:01:19Z drmeister: It's a macro just for testing.
2015-05-17T05:01:42Z drmeister: I just need to define it with DEFINE-COMPILER-MACRO - right?
2015-05-17T05:01:50Z beach: Right.
2015-05-17T05:01:54Z drmeister: Got it.
2015-05-17T05:01:57Z beach: You then write the BINARY+ function so that it does a complete case analysis on the types of its arguments.
2015-05-17T05:01:59Z drmeister: O, the binary addition.
2015-05-17T05:02:01Z drmeister: Ok
2015-05-17T05:02:35Z beach: That type analysis will depend on the exact float types of your system, of course.
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2015-05-17T05:02:57Z drmeister: Yes
2015-05-17T05:03:09Z beach: If both arguments are fixnums, then you use CLEAVIR primiop fixnum-add.
2015-05-17T05:03:32Z beach: If they are both the same floats, you use Cleavir unbox, add, box.
2015-05-17T05:04:17Z beach: You might have a default case where you call some other function of yours.  You can use this for unlikely cases or where the performance is not important.
2015-05-17T05:04:46Z emaczen: Can you use slime for cocoa development instead of the CCL ide?
2015-05-17T05:04:47Z beach: For instance, adding a ratio to a float is going to take time anyway.  Might as well do it in a function.
2015-05-17T05:05:26Z beach: drmeister: When you compile that BINARY+ function, you must save the AST with the function.
2015-05-17T05:06:25Z beach: drmeister: And when you compile some code that asks for FUNCTION-INFO about binary+, you supply :INLINE and the AST.
2015-05-17T05:06:46Z beach: Then Cleavir will inline the BINARY+ function for you.
2015-05-17T05:07:28Z drmeister: So - like this?
2015-05-17T05:07:36Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/tiHmPM4w
2015-05-17T05:08:00Z beach: Right.
2015-05-17T05:08:51Z beach: Then, if Cleavir has some information on the types of the arguments, either because of some declarations, because you have used CHECK-TYPE, or perhaps (ASSERT (TYPEP ...)) or something like that, then those tests will disappear because of the type inferencer.
2015-05-17T05:09:23Z drmeister: And the fixnum-add-instruction has two successors. So where do I generate the code for the overflow case?
2015-05-17T05:09:26Z beach: ... and dead code will be removed.
2015-05-17T05:10:11Z beach: In the overflow case, you would probably call another function to convert the fixnum to a bignum.   Since that is going to take time anyway, you might as well call a function to do it.
2015-05-17T05:10:57Z beach: So your code will not look like (fixnum-add ....)
2015-05-17T05:11:28Z beach: And right now I forget exactly how the source code must look for the correct AST to be generated.
2015-05-17T05:11:45Z drmeister: Is there an example?
2015-05-17T05:12:09Z beach: Probably not.  But it is documented somewhere.
2015-05-17T05:12:29Z beach: I think maybe the fixnum-add must be in an IF-AST.
2015-05-17T05:12:45Z beach: No, wait, the fixnum-ast already has two successors.
2015-05-17T05:13:04Z beach: Too early in the morning.
2015-05-17T05:13:05Z drmeister: AST nodes have successors?  I thought that was just instructions.
2015-05-17T05:13:12Z beach: ASTs don't have successors.
2015-05-17T05:13:15Z beach: They have children.
2015-05-17T05:13:23Z drmeister: Right.
2015-05-17T05:14:33Z beach: I think the fixnum-add AST must be in the condition of an IF AST.
2015-05-17T05:14:39Z beach: But I don't remember right now.
2015-05-17T05:15:36Z drmeister: It's ok, that's a good start.   I'll dig around some and come up with some better questions.
2015-05-17T05:15:38Z beach: Right.
2015-05-17T05:15:45Z beach: Check fixnum-related-asts.lisp
2015-05-17T05:16:03Z beach: "It can only occur as the test of an IF-AST"
2015-05-17T05:16:41Z drmeister: Ok.  I'm going to head to bed.  I'll check the logs if you have any other pointers.  Thanks!
2015-05-17T05:17:00Z beach: I think what we have said will give you plenty of work.
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2015-05-17T05:21:41Z akkad: anything special required for quicklisp to pick up a cl project under ~/quicklisp/local-projects ?
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2015-05-17T05:22:22Z Bike: nope
2015-05-17T05:22:44Z Bike: have a folder with the project name, and then project name.asd in that folder, and it should be fine.
2015-05-17T05:22:56Z akkad: yeap
2015-05-17T05:23:18Z akkad: ~/quicklisp/local-projects/cl-scrypt/cl-scrypt.asd exists.
2015-05-17T05:23:49Z akkad: ql not finding it however
2015-05-17T05:24:12Z akkad: ahh had to remove system-index.txt
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2015-05-17T06:11:16Z |zzy: Hi
2015-05-17T06:12:00Z pjb: minion memo for haom: you would just have to define a dispatching reader macro for #\# #\\ to be able to implement conformingly reading any character name you want.
2015-05-17T06:13:02Z pjb: minion memo for haom: You can specifically override the standard dispatching reader macro #\# #\\, there's no need to use a new one such as #\# #\~.
2015-05-17T06:13:22Z beach: pjb: `:' after `minion'
2015-05-17T06:13:30Z pjb: damn
2015-05-17T06:13:34Z pjb: minion: memo for haom: you would just have to define a dispatching reader macro for #\# #\\ to be able to implement conformingly reading any character name you want.
2015-05-17T06:13:34Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell haom when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-05-17T06:13:37Z pjb: minion: memo for haom: You can specifically override the standard dispatching reader macro #\# #\\, there's no need to use a new one such as #\# #\~.
2015-05-17T06:13:37Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell haom when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-05-17T06:13:40Z pjb: beach: thanks.
2015-05-17T06:13:41Z beach: Hello |zzy.
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2015-05-17T06:31:16Z pjb: minion: memo for emaczen: yes. you can establish your own bindings in hemlock: it is an emacs!
2015-05-17T06:31:16Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell emaczen when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-05-17T06:40:17Z pjb: diginet: basically, you have the choice of saying: "lisp is not good for anything", or "lisp is good [for something other languages are not good]".  Writing DSL is one thing other languages are not good. Functional programming was true before ML.  AI was true before statistical AI. etc.
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2015-05-17T06:55:11Z Shinmera: akkad: If your ASDs are in deeper directories than a single level from local-projects, use ql:register-local-projects to force rescanning the entire structure. Removing the system-index.txt does the same essentially, but is probably less convenient.
2015-05-17T06:55:11Z minion: Shinmera, memo from beach: Great!  Reading it now.
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2015-05-17T07:28:03Z TSMI: Have any lisp implementations based their VMs off of the architecture of old lisp machines?
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2015-05-17T07:29:40Z akkad: Symbolics VLM
2015-05-17T07:29:44Z akkad: Genera
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2015-05-17T07:31:59Z akkad: b
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2015-05-17T07:35:06Z H4ns: TSMI: the old lisp machines were stack machines, and for example the clisp vm is a stack machine as well.  that does not make the clisp vm be "based off" the lisp machine architecture, though.  what is your question really?
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2015-05-17T07:35:11Z TSMI: Ah right I am not really making an objective comparison - a vm for HLL architecture is a very different beast
2015-05-17T07:36:19Z p_l: akkad: said machine could be technically said to run "bytecode interpreter" as well, at least from a certain POV ;)
2015-05-17T07:36:47Z TSMI: H4ns: was mainly wondering about LISP vms and if the actuak silicone machines were an influence
2015-05-17T07:37:53Z H4ns: TSMI: the VLM is a direct software implementation of the symbolics lisp machine, but i think it is rather unique in that respect.
2015-05-17T07:38:52Z TSMI: Yeah I had a brief look into it
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2015-05-17T07:43:58Z p_l: TSMI: have you read the paper about VLM? Quite interesting read (and argumentation)
2015-05-17T07:44:33Z TSMI: No, but Im always keen for reading material about this stuff
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2015-05-17T07:45:21Z TSMI: http://pt.withy.org/publications/VLM.html this one?
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2015-05-17T07:45:43Z p_l: also, if you gain a copy of VLM, and preferably IDA or similar class disassembler with support for Alpha, give it a spin on VLM binary
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2015-05-17T07:46:17Z p_l: yes
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2015-05-17T07:50:52Z beach: TSMI: Out of curiosity, what are you planning to do with the information in this reading material?
2015-05-17T07:52:00Z akkad: is there a way to turn off echo to terminal on read-line?
2015-05-17T07:52:10Z beach: TSMI: I am asking because many modern Common Lisp implementations do not have a virtual machine in this sense.  They compile directly to native machine code.
2015-05-17T07:53:45Z TSMI: beach: mainly try and mine it for ideas/knowledge. I am finding it hard to get information about virtual machines, and lisp ones interest me especially
2015-05-17T07:54:00Z beach: TSMI: OK.  Good luck!
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2015-05-17T07:54:33Z TSMI: Also, wont those lisps that compile to assembly go through an intermediate code stage they feed to an interpreter for use in a repl?
2015-05-17T07:55:06Z Shinmera: You don't need an interpreter at all.
2015-05-17T07:55:21Z beach: TSMI: Usually, they compile forms on the fly as they are typed.
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2015-05-17T08:00:24Z p_l: TSMI: SBCL doesn't have such interpretable intermediate stage, and its evaluator was infamously not supported for a long time
2015-05-17T08:01:23Z TSMI: Wow. I have p!ayed around with sbcl and it wad quite responsive, the only other language/environment I knew did that was atrociously sluggish as an interpreter
2015-05-17T08:01:44Z ggole: TSMI: compiler IRs and interpretable structures are usually designed quite differently
2015-05-17T08:02:45Z beach: TSMI: Compiling a smallish form on the fly is quite fast these days.
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2015-05-17T08:04:43Z beach: TSMI: The only real point in having an interpreter (as far as I can see) is that macros can be expanded each time the form is interpreted.
2015-05-17T08:05:29Z TSMI: ggole, how so?
2015-05-17T08:05:38Z Shinmera: SBCL's compiler is also quite heavy-weight, so using the interpreter is faster for small snippets.
2015-05-17T08:05:46Z TSMI: beach, Ill look into the sbcl implementation
2015-05-17T08:06:19Z ggole: An IR doesn't have to worry about decoding or dispatch
2015-05-17T08:06:38Z ggole: It can include all sorts of pointers to interesting information without killing the performance of the (nonexistent) interpreter
2015-05-17T08:07:02Z ggole: Bytecodes tend to be quite redundant to reduce dispatch costs, too
2015-05-17T08:07:08Z ggole: There's no point in doing this in an IR
2015-05-17T08:08:33Z ggole: An IR also benefits from keeping control graph information like loop nesting, (post-) dominator tree, etc
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2015-05-17T08:19:55Z TSMI:  /"/s
2015-05-17T08:21:33Z TSMI: ggole, you mean since a bytecode usually relies on a big switch statement it tends ti be much more minimal/redundant?
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2015-05-17T08:23:00Z ggole: No, I mean that interpreters tend to add specialised bytecodes to do the same job that short sequences of other bytecodes could do, purely to reduce dispatch (and I suppose, code size) costs
2015-05-17T08:23:40Z p_l: TSMI: also IR can keep very useful information like "this is a loop"
2015-05-17T08:24:29Z TSMI: ,
2015-05-17T08:25:21Z TSMI: I think I follow
2015-05-17T08:27:14Z kephra: Shinmera, you dont need an interpreter at all reminds me at early Kyoto Lisp and ST/X - both started as compiler to C
2015-05-17T08:27:23Z kephra: both implemented an interpreter later
2015-05-17T08:28:21Z p_l: and SBCL compiler is infamously heavyweight ;-)
2015-05-17T08:28:37Z kephra: for GCL, the Kyoto heritage still slows down things horrible, if it comes more dynamic Lisp like CLOS
2015-05-17T08:28:43Z beach: kephra: So we can conclude that compiling to C requires an interpreter later.  That's why it is a bad idea to compile to C.
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2015-05-17T08:30:05Z kephra: beach, depends - e.g. ST/X is really sweet: you can mark classes, methods for compiling, decide for target platform, and get an interpreter + bytecode for the selected objects
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2015-05-17T08:30:44Z p_l: ST/X?
2015-05-17T08:30:55Z kephra: ST/X = Smalltalk/X
2015-05-17T08:31:01Z p_l: mhm
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2015-05-17T08:31:57Z beach: kephra: Wow, and this feature depends on compiling to C as opposed to compiling to native code?  How does that work?
2015-05-17T08:32:37Z kephra: ST/X started with a Smalltalk to C compiler, written in Smalltalk
2015-05-17T08:32:59Z kephra: Kyoto Lisp started with a Lisp to C compiler in Lisp
2015-05-17T08:33:47Z kephra: both allows to port your Smalltalk or Lisp to any platform that offers a C (cross compiler)
2015-05-17T08:34:13Z TSMI: LLVM looks like a decent compromise
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2015-05-17T08:38:55Z beach: TSMI: I guess you got more information than you bargained for.
2015-05-17T08:40:10Z TSMI: beach: its good. I never considered a VM-less lisp
2015-05-17T08:40:35Z beach: That's what I was guessing.  And that's why I asked you about it.
2015-05-17T08:46:40Z TSMI: Compiling to C appeaks to me for many reasons. But then as pointed out, you need to go ahead and write an interpreter later
2015-05-17T08:47:47Z beach: TSMI: While it might sounds like a good idea, there are some interesting mismatches.  C is actually a bit too high level for that.
2015-05-17T08:48:24Z beach: TSMI: For example, if you want tail-call optimization, then your C code will have a very strange structure.
2015-05-17T08:49:07Z beach: TSMI: Alternatively, it is possible to exploit the fact that many C compilers do something predictable with non-conforming C code.
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2015-05-17T08:50:17Z TSMI: Well I wouldnt expect C produced by a compiler to be idiomatic
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2015-05-17T08:50:31Z beach: Right.
2015-05-17T08:50:53Z beach: But it also impacts performance.
2015-05-17T08:52:00Z beach: For tail-call optimization, you need for each function to return before some other function is called, so you can't use the normal argument-passing mechanism.
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2015-05-17T08:52:47Z TSMI: You can use a stack datastructure. But yeah possibly slow
2015-05-17T08:53:48Z beach: Yes, there are a number of possible tricks, but they all make it less appealing to use C as a backend.
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2015-05-17T08:53:59Z beach: I think the language C-- was invented for this reason.
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2015-05-17T08:54:51Z beach: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C--
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2015-05-17T09:00:03Z beach: But you are right.  Nowadays there is LLVM instead.
2015-05-17T09:00:14Z jackdaniel: gcc at least has flag for tail call optimization
2015-05-17T09:00:44Z beach: jackdaniel: I believe it only works in certain circumstances.  This is from memory.  It could have changed since.
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2015-05-17T09:01:13Z ggole: gcc only provides TCE for "sibling calls", and only for some classes of function
2015-05-17T09:01:24Z beach: ggole: Thanks!
2015-05-17T09:01:44Z jackdaniel: other thing is that you may first compile lisp to lisp, and then to c
2015-05-17T09:01:45Z ggole: It's nice that gcc does it, but it can't be relied on
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2015-05-17T09:02:26Z jackdaniel: so you replace recursion with iteration
2015-05-17T09:02:29Z ggole: (I believe the cases that it can't handle are things like taking the address of a stack-allocated object to pass to the tail-callee.)
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2015-05-17T09:02:51Z ggole: Iteration doesn't work when the tail-callee is an argument
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2015-05-17T09:06:23Z kephra: you need to compile into a trampoline code of continuations *ouch*
2015-05-17T09:08:11Z jackdaniel: do you have any good article preposition so I can understand tco better?
2015-05-17T09:08:12Z ggole: There are other approaches, like the Cheney trick
2015-05-17T09:08:40Z ggole: But of course you can't simply do it directly like you can with your own code generation.
2015-05-17T09:08:41Z jackdaniel: s/pre/pro/
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2015-05-17T09:30:11Z beach: jackdaniel: There is not much to understand.  For some function F to make a tail call to a function G, F must first remove any part of the environment that the caller passed it.  In particular the arguments passed to F.
2015-05-17T09:31:12Z beach: jackdaniel: In C, the caller established the arguments, and removes them after the call.  In that case F doesn't have the information required to remove the arguments, such as the exact number of arguments that were passed.
2015-05-17T09:32:50Z jackdaniel: mhm, thanks
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2015-05-17T09:36:24Z jackdaniel: so as I understand, it's easy to implement tail call when recurrency is involved, but if called function has different arguments it's hard
2015-05-17T09:36:35Z jackdaniel: ?
2015-05-17T09:36:56Z ggole: It has more to do with a quirk of C's parameter passing semantics
2015-05-17T09:37:13Z beach: Sure.  More generally, if the caller and the callee are compiled together, then it is easier.
2015-05-17T09:37:34Z beach: But as ggole says, it is still messy.
2015-05-17T09:38:12Z ggole: C ABIs were historically designed such that a call with the wrong number of arguments (!) would not trash the stack
2015-05-17T09:38:15Z beach: For instance on x86, the caller of F (call it H) has a return address to ITS caller.  This return address must be found and preserved.
2015-05-17T09:38:47Z ggole: Instead the callee would ignore any extra arguments, and the caller would clean them (it knows how many there are)
2015-05-17T09:39:10Z ggole: This was more desirable in the days when C did not require function prototypes
2015-05-17T09:39:37Z beach: Ah, backward compatibility.
2015-05-17T09:39:39Z ggole: It also plays nice with variadic functions
2015-05-17T09:40:07Z ggole: However, caller-teardown ABIs don't work well with tail recursion
2015-05-17T09:40:24Z beach: Yes, and this is also the reason why C traditionally pushes the arguments in reverse order, so that the first one can be found and examined to determine how many others there are.  Cf printf.
2015-05-17T09:41:04Z p_l: what about chicken scheme?
2015-05-17T09:41:13Z beach: What about it?
2015-05-17T09:41:51Z ggole: Modern ABIs make some changes, eg, the x86-64 ABI allows passing the number of xmm regs used as arguments to variadic functions (which can then operate without these arguments being on the stack)
2015-05-17T09:42:34Z p_l: it uses a never-returning c function call, always passing a continuation, and uses stack overflow as gc signal
2015-05-17T09:42:54Z p_l: anyway, have to go - takeoff soon :-)
2015-05-17T09:42:54Z ggole: Right, that's the "Cheney trick" I mentioned
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2015-05-17T09:42:59Z ggole: I believe it works with any ABI
2015-05-17T09:43:14Z ChanServ has set mode -o p_l
2015-05-17T09:43:42Z ggole: (And it's clever as hell.)
2015-05-17T09:44:51Z ggole: jackdaniel: in short, there's no great difficulty if you are in charge of the ABI
2015-05-17T09:45:04Z ggole: But existing ABIs cause trouble
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2015-05-17T09:45:34Z jackdaniel: ggole: yes, but ECL has to easily interoperate with C
2015-05-17T09:45:45Z jackdaniel: so I'm tied to it
2015-05-17T09:46:12Z beach: jackdaniel: No.  You use a different call protocol when crossing the language barrier.
2015-05-17T09:48:19Z jackdaniel: hm, I'm not sure what do you mean - ECL generates C code, which is then compiled
2015-05-17T09:49:19Z beach: jackdaniel: So we are back to the original discussion where generated C code does not have to be idiomatic and you can play the tricks mentioned.
2015-05-17T09:49:43Z jackdaniel: yes
2015-05-17T09:50:04Z jackdaniel: I have to go, thanks for explaining stuff ggole and beach
2015-05-17T09:50:11Z jackdaniel: I'll surely reread it later
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2015-05-17T11:08:35Z hitecnologys: adlai: well, we'll have to see that, but I in case it is inefficient, I can always rewrite it to something that uses better data structure.
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2015-05-17T12:39:58Z afleck: is an if statement the best way to get a macro to expand with different symbol names based on an arg?
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2015-05-17T12:41:33Z afleck: or if my symbol names are similar, say sym-foo and sym-too, can I pass an arg as t or f to get it to expand right?
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2015-05-17T12:42:51Z Xach: afleck: symbols aren't too special. it's a little like returning similar numbers.
2015-05-17T12:42:59Z Xach: afleck: whatever control flow or conditional works is fine.
2015-05-17T12:43:17Z Xach: you can get a symbol from a name with find-symbol, intern, and other functions.
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2015-05-17T12:48:40Z afleck: ah, alright. thanks
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2015-05-17T13:34:13Z jackdaniel: if I want to auto-load my utilities on each start, i have to load asd file in each implementation rc file, right?
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2015-05-17T14:24:08Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
2015-05-17T14:24:31Z jackdaniel: o/
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2015-05-17T14:25:27Z wbooze: afternoon beach!
2015-05-17T14:30:39Z jackdaniel: how would skilled lisper find a minimal element like it had a key argument? ie longest list
2015-05-17T14:31:10Z jackdaniel: (min :key #'length list1 list2 ...)
2015-05-17T14:31:28Z beach: Not sure what you mean.
2015-05-17T14:31:40Z beach: Oh, wait I think I see.
2015-05-17T14:31:54Z jackdaniel: find a list of minimal number of elements in this particular example
2015-05-17T14:32:00Z beach: Right.
2015-05-17T14:32:26Z jackdaniel: i can sort them and pick first one, but
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2015-05-17T14:32:34Z beach: Nah.
2015-05-17T14:32:44Z beach: Loop and keep the smallest in each iteration.
2015-05-17T14:33:10Z jackdaniel: yeah, I've wrapped solutions with do
2015-05-17T14:33:22Z jackdaniel: tought there is some nice abberv for that tough
2015-05-17T14:33:42Z scymtym: jackdaniel: (alexandria:extremum '((1) (2 2) (3 3 3)) #'< :key #'length) => (1)
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2015-05-17T14:34:14Z jackdaniel: scymtym: o, that looks like what I was looking for, thanks!
2015-05-17T14:38:45Z afleck: length is slow for comparing longer lists
2015-05-17T14:39:23Z afleck: traversing both at the same time and then stopping when one ends is faster
2015-05-17T14:39:54Z jackdaniel: afleck: but if you compare big number of lists? - it was just an example
2015-05-17T14:40:16Z jackdaniel: but I think traversing each list one time might be profitable over traversing each list partially many times
2015-05-17T14:40:26Z jackdaniel: especially when they have comparable lengths
2015-05-17T14:40:55Z afleck: jackdaniel: good point
2015-05-17T14:41:14Z jackdaniel: thanks :)
2015-05-17T14:41:28Z beach: There is a chance that alexandria calls LENGTH twice on each list.  You might want to check that if you are concerned with performance.
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2015-05-17T14:41:50Z beach: Or, I should say twice the number of lists you pass it.
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2015-05-17T14:42:29Z ggole_: That would be a pretty poor implementation
2015-05-17T14:42:55Z beach: It might assume that the KEY function is trivial.
2015-05-17T14:42:59Z beach: like an accessor.
2015-05-17T14:43:31Z ggole_: For some functions, there's a tradeoff
2015-05-17T14:43:59Z ggole_: You have to choose between storing a value for the key transformed element or applying the transform multiple times
2015-05-17T14:44:06Z ggole_: But an accumulation function like that isn't one of those
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2015-05-17T14:44:49Z wbooze: (apply #'min (map 'list #'length (list (list 1 2) (list 1 2 3) (list 1 2 3 4))))
2015-05-17T14:45:31Z jackdaniel: wbooze: how do I acquire original list for this?
2015-05-17T14:46:00Z jackdaniel: I don't want to have length of shortest, I want a shortest
2015-05-17T14:46:14Z wbooze: jackdaniel: the original list is (list (list 1 2) (list 1 2 3) (list 1 2 3 4))
2015-05-17T14:46:40Z wbooze: ah
2015-05-17T14:48:25Z ggole_: (reduce #'min seq :key #'length)?
2015-05-17T14:48:54Z beach: Same problem.
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2015-05-17T14:49:08Z jackdaniel: beach: it doesn't call it twice on each list, but it computes candidate multiple times
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2015-05-17T14:49:24Z beach: jackdaniel: Hmm.  OK.
2015-05-17T14:49:46Z jackdaniel: so there is space for improvement, unless caching values is undesireable
2015-05-17T14:49:55Z jackdaniel: s/values/results/
2015-05-17T14:50:20Z jackdaniel: but function is handy indeed :)
2015-05-17T14:51:16Z drmeister: Hey folks, I'm trying to figure out how ECL avoids creating CLOS classes at startup.
2015-05-17T14:51:41Z drmeister: When ECL compiles itself - does it generate a bunch of C files and then compile those to libecl.so?
2015-05-17T14:52:58Z drmeister: I'm asking because ECL constructs classes at compile time and during the construction invokes EVAL to compile accessors.  I can't figure out how the accessors, compiled using EVAL at compile time are made available at load-time.
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2015-05-17T14:53:17Z drmeister: Or if something else is going on that I'm not aware of.
2015-05-17T14:54:14Z drmeister: Imagine compile-file'ing this:   (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (setf (fdefinition foo) (eval '(lambda () (print "Foo")))))
2015-05-17T14:54:39Z drmeister: The compiled code for FOO is only available at compile time as far as I can see.
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2015-05-17T14:56:33Z wbooze: jackdaniel: (let ((my-list (list (list 1 2) (list 1 2 3) (list 1 2 3 4))))
2015-05-17T14:56:40Z wbooze: ups
2015-05-17T14:56:44Z wbooze: (let ((my-list (list (list 1 2) (list 1 2 3) (list 1 2 3 4))))
2015-05-17T14:57:14Z wbooze: (loop for x in my-list
2015-05-17T14:57:22Z wbooze: hmmm
2015-05-17T14:57:31Z drmeister: Sorry:  (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (setf (fdefinition 'foo) (eval '(lambda () (print "Foo")))))
2015-05-17T14:57:44Z wbooze: do (if (eq (length x) (apply 'min (map 'list #'length my-list))) (print x))))
2015-05-17T14:59:15Z wbooze: use (return x) instead of (print x) if you want to return the value instead of printing it
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2015-05-17T15:02:45Z drmeister: jackdaniel: What happens at startup when you start ECL?  How do function slots of symbols get set?
2015-05-17T15:03:44Z drmeister: Clasp does it by evaluating every top level form in the Common Lisp code.
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2015-05-17T15:04:32Z drmeister: It's like load evaluates forms but in this case the forms are all compiled already
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2015-05-17T15:07:57Z drmeister: I thought ECL did the same but I'm starting to suspect that libecl.so is something else.
2015-05-17T15:08:07Z Bike: well, you got what the eval-when does right.
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2015-05-17T15:16:49Z drmeister: Yeah - so it's a puzzle to me how ECL does it.
2015-05-17T15:17:14Z drmeister: Does ECL bundle up all the C code it generates during the build along with a SYMBOL table and write it out to a .so file?
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2015-05-17T15:17:55Z wbooze: (LET ((MY-LIST (LIST (LIST 1 2) (LIST 1 2 3) (LIST 1 2 3 4))) RESULT) (mapcar (lambda (x) (if (eq (length x) (apply #'min (map 'list 'length my-list))) (push x result))) my-list) (first result))
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2015-05-17T15:18:34Z jackdaniel: I *think* that it builds ecl_min, which is lisp-to-c translator, and everything you load to it during compilation is part of resulting .so
2015-05-17T15:18:43Z wbooze: the same, via mapping stead
2015-05-17T15:19:19Z jackdaniel: wbooze: it's not a problem to wrap your own function, I was wondering if someone did that, so I don't have to reinvent a wheel
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2015-05-17T15:28:29Z wbooze: there are so many patterns.....
2015-05-17T15:28:51Z wbooze: you'll hardly miss stuff that's not already invented.....
2015-05-17T15:30:19Z jackdaniel: yes, but simple question here isn't much effort - that's how collective knowledge works
2015-05-17T15:30:24Z wbooze: the question is, are those ok for you, i.e. criteria (brevity, elegancy, effectivity....)
2015-05-17T15:31:16Z wbooze: genericity (or portability etc..)
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2015-05-17T16:08:19Z Petit_Dejeuner: in '`x the quasiquote is able to expand because it's evaluated at readtime?
2015-05-17T16:09:26Z Bike: not really "expand", but yeah basically
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2015-05-17T16:52:14Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner: it is not evaluated at read time, it is READ at read time.
2015-05-17T16:52:43Z Petit_Dejeuner: ah, that makes more sense
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2015-05-17T18:34:32Z failproofshark: hello
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2015-05-17T18:58:59Z Th30n: hi
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2015-05-17T19:09:26Z jackdaniel: hi
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2015-05-17T19:20:17Z nydel: i'm trying to write a predicate to determine whether a string can be sent to #'read-from-string without error, get that feeling like there's some obvious way to not have to do this that i'm not thinking of..
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2015-05-17T19:31:51Z Bike: nydel: ignore-errors, or an actual handler, maybe?
2015-05-17T19:32:16Z kristof: catching an error sounds better
2015-05-17T19:32:21Z kristof: and then returning false on an encountered error
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2015-05-17T19:40:07Z drmeister: A bitvector should be represented by an array of bits - correct?
2015-05-17T19:40:27Z Bike: a bitvector _is_ an array of bits
2015-05-17T19:40:37Z Bike: i mean, you can have it in memory however you want.
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2015-05-17T19:42:15Z ehu: drmeister: I'm not aware of any physical representation requirements either.
2015-05-17T19:42:56Z drmeister: I represent it as an array of characters and I index into the individual bits.  I'm thinking an array of words would be better?
2015-05-17T19:43:13Z Bike: probably, yeah.
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2015-05-17T19:53:09Z nydel: yeah i need to catch the error, i'm reading arguments as strings and one of them has to be a number or it's going to get passed to a mathematical function and cause an error there
2015-05-17T19:53:30Z nydel: blip blep blop
2015-05-17T19:57:49Z Bike: Are they integers?
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2015-05-17T20:25:47Z nydel: they are Bike
2015-05-17T20:26:04Z nydel: i mean it would be okay if they were floats but they won't be
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2015-05-17T20:29:23Z nydel: i'm parsing the chat output of an mmo dedicated server and this particular module is an in-game economy. right now if someone chatted /pay nydel $30F, the entire system would be hung up until i restarted it
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2015-05-17T20:32:04Z nydel: if ppcre had like regex-only-keep "[0-9|\\.]" target-string i'd be golden, but i don't see that.
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2015-05-17T20:38:44Z flip214: nydel: "regex-only-keep"? what do you mean by that?
2015-05-17T20:39:40Z nydel: flip214: doing regex-replace-all "everything that is not 0-9 or ." with ""
2015-05-17T20:40:03Z flip214: why not just scan-to-strings with #?rx"(\d+(?:\.\d*))" and then (read-from-string)?
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2015-05-17T20:40:32Z flip214: and that replacement should be possible via [^0-9.]
2015-05-17T20:40:59Z Shinmera: flip214: (cl-ppcre:regex-replace-all "(!?[0-9.])" "abc093sad.21" "") => "abcsad"
2015-05-17T20:40:59Z Bike: i mean, if they're integers you could use parse-integer.
2015-05-17T20:41:00Z nydel: ha. it is. thanks flip214.
2015-05-17T20:41:04Z Shinmera: *nydel
2015-05-17T20:41:32Z Shinmera: err actually what am I doing
2015-05-17T20:41:34Z flip214: Shinmera: he wants to *keep* the digits, only.
2015-05-17T20:41:34Z Shinmera is tired
2015-05-17T20:41:44Z flip214: which $TZ?
2015-05-17T20:41:45Z flip214: ;)
2015-05-17T20:41:46Z Shinmera: Yeah, I thought I was doing a negative lookahead thing.
2015-05-17T20:42:01Z Shinmera: Europe
2015-05-17T20:42:48Z flip214: ah, I've been there ... yesterday. and will be in a week. right now I'm at PDT.
2015-05-17T20:42:53Z flip214: ouch.
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2015-05-17T20:43:33Z Shinmera: nydel: (cl-ppcre:regex-replace-all "(?![0-9.])." "abc093sad.21" "") => "093.21"
2015-05-17T20:43:46Z Shinmera had the ?! the wrong way around and forgot the dot.
2015-05-17T20:44:58Z flip214: Shinmera: the right way is [^0-9.]+, forget the negative lookahead.
2015-05-17T20:45:23Z Shinmera: Right, I forgot the ^ in [] was a thing too.
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2015-05-17T20:48:05Z nydel: all righty, the predicate does that then checks if the modified string changes in length from the original or is empty. if neither thing then it's clear to go to read-from-string.
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2015-05-17T20:49:39Z nydel: thanks everyone
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2015-05-17T20:52:26Z nydel: ha, i accidentally just eliminated the possibility of someone doing /pay nydel -300.0
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2015-05-17T20:55:11Z digiorgi: in parenscript how can i evaluate something to real common lisp?
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2015-05-17T20:56:24Z flip214: nydel: why not parse-to-strings and then read-from-string from the match, if any? ain't that cleaner?
2015-05-17T20:56:43Z flip214: nydel: what happens if I say "pay nydel " ie. nothing? length won't change ;)
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2015-05-17T21:14:14Z nydel: but it will be empty :)
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2015-05-17T21:15:34Z nydel: i see what you mean though this whole thing could probably be cleaner, parsing chat to pass to functions can be a messy affair if you let it get away from you so i better be careful
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2015-05-17T21:27:03Z emaczen: What is the recommended tools for cocoa development? I'm playing around with the
2015-05-17T21:27:03Z minion: emaczen, memo from pjb: yes. you can establish your own bindings in hemlock: it is an emacs!
2015-05-17T21:27:03Z minion: emaczen, memo from pjb: yes.
2015-05-17T21:27:36Z emaczen: I'm playing around with the source code in /contrib/cocoa-ide/krueger
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2015-05-17T21:35:35Z emaczen: Or what else can I look/play with?
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2015-05-17T22:21:53Z therabidmachine: what's everyone working on lately?
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2015-05-17T22:42:01Z drmeister: What is the difference between a vector of characters and a string?
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2015-05-17T22:43:06Z p_l: drmeister: depends on one's support for unicode, possibly (at the very least)
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2015-05-17T22:43:50Z p_l: but I guess it can be one and the same
2015-05-17T22:44:53Z drmeister: Currently I have strings of one byte characters. I just implemented immediate characters so I can implement a string of 32 bit characters.
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2015-05-17T22:50:12Z drmeister: It's ok, I know what I need to do. I need a 32bit string that can have element-type 'character
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2015-05-17T22:58:02Z Xach: drmeister: a string is a vector of characters, but a vector is only a string if it's specialized
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2015-05-17T23:07:48Z drmeister: Xach: specialized how?
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2015-05-17T23:14:53Z Bike: on character or a subtype of character.
2015-05-17T23:16:23Z drmeister: Got it. My problem is currently my only string is a 1 byte
2015-05-17T23:16:31Z drmeister: Character string.
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2015-05-18T01:45:17Z katco: is there a format directive that will give me the count of the iteartion within ~{ ~}?
2015-05-18T01:49:52Z Zhivago: When you start caring about things like that, it's probably time to graduate from format magic.
2015-05-18T01:50:14Z katco: Zhivago: nah, i'm just trying to do a numbered list. very simple.
2015-05-18T01:50:53Z Zhivago: It might be even simpler with the amazing power of iteration and multiple calls to format. :)
2015-05-18T01:51:08Z katco: lol, 1 line vs. ~3?
2015-05-18T01:51:16Z katco: 1 very very short line?
2015-05-18T01:51:52Z katco: (format stream "~{~a!^!%~}" my-list)
2015-05-18T01:52:16Z Bike: (loop for i below (length x) do (format wherever "~d: ~a!^!" i x))?
2015-05-18T01:52:48Z Zhivago: Are you being charged by the line?
2015-05-18T01:52:51Z katco: just not as simple... i know howt o do it with a loop
2015-05-18T01:53:01Z katco: Zhivago: it is my preference, that's enough
2015-05-18T01:53:09Z Zhivago: if not, hire a mexican circus midget to beat the stupid out of you. :)
2015-05-18T01:53:44Z Bike: (format stream "~{~d ~a!^!%~}" (loop for i below (length my-list) collect i) my-list)
2015-05-18T01:54:14Z katco: so the answer is: there is no directive
2015-05-18T01:54:24Z Bike: nope
2015-05-18T01:54:27Z Zhivago: There's always ~/.
2015-05-18T01:54:30Z katco: Bike: ty
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2015-05-18T02:46:30Z flip214: katco: you can call a function via ~/name, and that can be a closure too
2015-05-18T02:46:41Z flip214: ah, sorry, just what Zhivago already said.
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2015-05-18T02:54:20Z Oladon: Hrm, how would I go about getting the names of the slot definitions returned by class-slots?
2015-05-18T02:55:27Z Oladon: I'm trying to determine if two objects (of different classes) have the same slot values (names will already be the same between the two)
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2015-05-18T03:03:07Z Bike: mop:slot-definition-name
2015-05-18T03:03:16Z Oladon: Ahh, perfect, thanks.
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2015-05-18T03:03:27Z Oladon: And that also explains why I couldn't find it in the CLHS permuted symbol index
2015-05-18T03:03:51Z Bike: class-slots wouldn't be in there either, sooooo
2015-05-18T03:04:23Z Oladon: Heh, good point... I hadn't even noticed :P
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2015-05-18T03:45:36Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-05-18T04:06:21Z PuercoPop: Oladon: you can use l1sp.org, it includes the mop in addition the the clhs (and more stuff)
2015-05-18T04:10:13Z Oladon: PuercoPop: cool, thanks
2015-05-18T04:10:16Z Oladon: Morning beach
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2015-05-18T06:26:46Z pjb: katco: ~n{ --> "Also, if a prefix parameter n is given, then there will be at most n repetitions of processing of str."  and see: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.lispworks.general/13288
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2015-05-18T07:55:12Z loke: Help!
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2015-05-18T07:55:47Z loke: I can never remember (and experimentation is not helping either). How on earth do I expand the value of an outer variable in a double-nested backquote?
2015-05-18T07:56:02Z pjb: with two commas.
2015-05-18T07:56:04Z jackdaniel: ,,var
2015-05-18T07:56:07Z jackdaniel: ↑
2015-05-18T07:56:24Z loke: Doesn't work
2015-05-18T07:56:25Z loke: waaaait
2015-05-18T07:56:44Z loke: Argh! It's SBCL that renders it weridly.
2015-05-18T07:56:44Z pjb: (let ((a 42)) `(let ((b 33)) `(list ,,a ,b))) --> (let ((b 33)) (list* 'list (list* 42 (list b))))
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2015-05-18T07:57:25Z pjb: My advice: don't use sbcl to develop. Use it only to compile the final product, if you need it run fast.
2015-05-18T07:57:30Z loke: Yeah, I just realised that. But SBCL prints my inner `((:foo . ,,bar)) as: `((:foo ,@"bar")) This is of course equivalent.
2015-05-18T07:57:36Z loke: But it tripped me off
2015-05-18T07:57:48Z loke: Thanks guys
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2015-05-18T08:02:39Z dim: pjb: what would you advice for development then? I would guess ccl but from you maybe clisp?
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2015-05-18T08:22:42Z loke: pjb: Why do you recommend against using SBCL for development?
2015-05-18T08:22:52Z loke: I find the extensive error message to be invaluable.
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2015-05-18T08:28:53Z loke: That said, mainting compatibility with at least two different implementations is always good.
2015-05-18T08:29:38Z jackdaniel: even better - writing portable code :p
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2015-05-18T08:31:39Z pjb: loke: yes, I often finds the tools in other implementations better for developments (debuggers, tracers, etc).  Actually, the deficiencies of sbcl were the primary motivation for the development of slime and sldb.
2015-05-18T08:32:24Z loke: Oh I see. I've been quite happy with SLDB and SBCL. I don't trace, although I do notice that SBCL has some support for it?
2015-05-18T08:32:50Z pjb: Yes, but try it without sldb.
2015-05-18T08:32:52Z loke: jackdaniel: Yes, I always strive to write portable code, but it's hard to do unless you target at least 2 different versions. I tend to target SBCL and ABCL
2015-05-18T08:33:00Z loke: pjb: I don't want to :-)
2015-05-18T08:33:07Z pjb: Right. Exactly my point.
2015-05-18T08:33:12Z loke: hah
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2015-05-18T08:34:11Z jackdaniel: loke: that's great. What I meant you can target even all available implementations writing non-portable code with hacks in #+my-best-whatever, what should be last resort imo
2015-05-18T08:35:12Z Cymew: How about some GSoC projects to lift SBCL debugging to the next level? Would that be doable?
2015-05-18T08:35:34Z pjb: Cymew: that could be not implementation specific.
2015-05-18T08:36:08Z Cymew: I see. I don't know much about GSoC rules, really.
2015-05-18T08:36:15Z |3b| wouldn't want to use any other implementations without sldb either though
2015-05-18T08:36:19Z pjb: You could aim to write some very nice lisp debugger, conformingly, or with very little implementation specific supported needed.
2015-05-18T08:36:38Z pjb: |3b|: clisp debugger (on interpreted code) is very nice.
2015-05-18T08:37:05Z jdz: i've moved away from clisp especially because of unusable (or confusing, i don't remember) debugger
2015-05-18T08:37:08Z |3b|: nice but not integrated into my editor
2015-05-18T08:37:16Z jdz: and now it's GPL
2015-05-18T08:37:16Z Shinmera: Getting the stack trace alone is not portable.
2015-05-18T08:37:30Z Shinmera: And a major pain in the ass on some implementations.
2015-05-18T08:38:04Z Shinmera: (cough clisp cough)
2015-05-18T08:38:52Z jackdaniel: jdz: being GPL means nothing unless you want to modify clisp
2015-05-18T08:38:58Z jackdaniel: it isn't library
2015-05-18T08:39:11Z jdz: jackdaniel: are you sure?
2015-05-18T08:39:37Z jackdaniel: yes, product of gpl software computation isn't gpl'ed
2015-05-18T08:39:40Z jdz: jackdaniel: the fact that clisp had to adopt GPL is very instructive, imo
2015-05-18T08:39:54Z jackdaniel: yes, it linked against readline, which were gpl
2015-05-18T08:39:59Z jackdaniel: but clisp isn't library
2015-05-18T08:40:02Z |3b|: jackdaniel: what are you considering "product"?
2015-05-18T08:40:07Z jackdaniel: ecl is lgpl, so you can safely link with it either
2015-05-18T08:40:30Z jackdaniel: |3b|: if I edit file with GPL editor (emacs for instance), my text isn't gpl'ed
2015-05-18T08:40:42Z |3b|: right, but you said clisp not emacs
2015-05-18T08:40:43Z jackdaniel: if I compile something with gpl compiler, my resulting program isn't gpled
2015-05-18T08:40:49Z jdz: jackdaniel: libreadline was also not require to run clisp
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2015-05-18T08:41:18Z |3b|: by "the resulting program" do you mean the GPLed binary that includes all od CLISP and links with readline?
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2015-05-18T08:41:41Z pjb: Shinmera: what's hard in (system::describe-frame *standard-output*  (SYSTEM::THE-FRAME)) ?
2015-05-18T08:41:41Z jdz: jackdaniel: if i write an application that depends on some functionality in clisp that is not present in any other lisp implementation, what would that mean?
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2015-05-18T08:41:53Z Shinmera: pjb: It's not inspectable.
2015-05-18T08:42:00Z pjb: Of course it is.
2015-05-18T08:42:01Z jackdaniel: code you run in clisp virtual machine isn't anyhow part of interpreter, thereof you're safe
2015-05-18T08:42:01Z jdz: damn, now i'm sorry i mentioned GPL :?
2015-05-18T08:42:03Z jdz: :/
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2015-05-18T08:42:44Z |3b|: jackdaniel: right, you can run non-gpl code on clisp, but you can't build non-gpl binaries using clisp (unless you run another compiler in clisp or something)
2015-05-18T08:42:49Z pjb: jdz: that's the reason why you want to write conforming code.
2015-05-18T08:43:06Z Shinmera: pjb: You need to use god damn regexes to tear apart the string if you want to get the information in any kind of nicely usable way.
2015-05-18T08:43:20Z jdz: pjb: yes, which i can do in any other implementation as well, at which point i choose to do just that
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2015-05-18T08:44:07Z jackdaniel: |3b|: does clisp support building binary? I'm not sure about that
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2015-05-18T08:44:18Z pjb: yes it does.
2015-05-18T08:44:21Z pjb: DUH
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2015-05-18T08:44:22Z |3b|: it dumps images same as most CL implementations
2015-05-18T08:44:27Z jackdaniel: ok
2015-05-18T08:44:48Z pjb: and it doesn't need to exit after having saved the image.
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2015-05-18T08:45:10Z jackdaniel: |3b|: then I have no sufficient knowledge to rise my opinion on last question
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2015-05-18T08:45:44Z |3b|: whether .fas files (or whatever clisp calls them) are GPL is a harder question to answer, since they probably contain expansion of presumably GPL macros
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2015-05-18T08:51:22Z Cymew: clisp really is getting lot of talk these days
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2015-05-18T08:53:08Z Cymew: pjb: Have there been a list of the deficiencies of the sbcl debugger? I thought that maybe presenting such a list to the sbcl devs it would be easier to get an evaluation of how they would be to fix.
2015-05-18T08:53:25Z Cymew: "how hard" that is
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2015-05-18T08:53:41Z pjb: I certainly did some comparison ten years ago.  Now there's slime, I'm not interested in devling more.
2015-05-18T08:53:48Z pjb: s/vl/lv/
2015-05-18T08:54:06Z Cymew: Makes sense I guess
2015-05-18T08:54:17Z |3b| suspects the stepper is the main thing that isn't just a question of UI
2015-05-18T08:54:29Z pjb: |3b|: I disaggree.
2015-05-18T08:54:38Z |3b|: if sbcl debugger is usable from sldb, the underlying support shoujld be there
2015-05-18T08:54:47Z pjb: indeed.
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2015-05-18T09:15:24Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for protoist: there is coffeeware, which is essentially the same but more pleasing to eye then license name we talked previously
2015-05-18T09:15:24Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell protoist when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-05-18T09:34:10Z schjetne: These joke licenses are starting to get old
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2015-05-18T09:37:26Z jackdaniel: jokes with beards? (:
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2015-05-18T09:38:40Z Posterdati: hi
2015-05-18T09:38:44Z theos: and canes
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2015-05-18T09:40:18Z Posterdati: I'm trying to use iolib on angstrom for beaglebone (ccl), but I've got this after installed libfixposix: http://paste.lisp.org/display/148350
2015-05-18T09:40:47Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2015-05-18T09:40:57Z p_l: angstrom still exists o_O
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2015-05-18T09:45:39Z Posterdati: no idea?
2015-05-18T09:46:08Z |3b|: did installing libfixposix install that .h file, or is it in a separate -dev package or whatever?
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2015-05-18T09:46:39Z Posterdati: I installed from original repository and it went to /usr/local/include
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2015-05-18T09:47:34Z ferada: Posterdati: if nothing else helps, you can modify cffi-grovel::*cc-flags* to manually include the folder
2015-05-18T09:48:51Z |3b|: yeah, something like that would be my guess too, or CFLAGS env var
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2015-05-18T09:49:56Z Posterdati: where?
2015-05-18T09:51:33Z Posterdati: CL-USER> cffi-grovel::*cc-flags*
2015-05-18T09:51:33Z Posterdati: NIL
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2015-05-18T09:52:25Z ferada: Posterdati: yeah, (pushnew "-I/usr/local/include/whatever" cffi-grovel::*cc-flags*) and try to compile again
2015-05-18T09:52:27Z pjb: i'd guess (push "-I/usr/local/include" cffi-grovel::*cc-flags*)
2015-05-18T09:52:47Z Posterdati: ok
2015-05-18T09:53:11Z pjb: add :test (function string=) if you want to use pushnew.
2015-05-18T09:54:24Z Posterdati: The value "-I /usr/local/include" is not of the expected type LIST.
2015-05-18T09:56:08Z zacharias_ is now known as zacharias
2015-05-18T09:57:12Z jackdaniel: Patzy: are you sure you did (push "xxx" cffi-grovel::*cc-flags*) not (push cffi-gr... "xxx") ?
2015-05-18T09:57:29Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: °
2015-05-18T09:57:54Z Posterdati: yes
2015-05-18T09:59:05Z Posterdati: same error
2015-05-18T09:59:22Z pjb: Posterdati: then use cl:push
2015-05-18T09:59:27Z Posterdati: CL-USER> cffi-grovel::*cc-flags*
2015-05-18T09:59:28Z Posterdati: ("-I/usr/local/include/")
2015-05-18T09:59:41Z pjb: good to go
2015-05-18T09:59:48Z Posterdati: same error
2015-05-18T10:00:20Z jackdaniel: then clear variable and try to push there '("-I/bla/bla")
2015-05-18T10:00:24Z ferada: Posterdati: are you sure lfp.h is in that folder?
2015-05-18T10:00:42Z Posterdati: http://paste.lisp.org/display/148350#1
2015-05-18T10:00:56Z Posterdati: root@beaglebone:~# ls /usr/local/include
2015-05-18T10:00:56Z Posterdati: lfp  lfp.h
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2015-05-18T10:02:33Z ferada: ah Posterdati try iolib-grovel::*cc-flags* instead
2015-05-18T10:02:58Z Posterdati: ah
2015-05-18T10:04:03Z Posterdati: iolib-grovel::*cc-flags*
2015-05-18T10:04:03Z Posterdati: ("-Wno-write-strings")
2015-05-18T10:04:04Z Posterdati: CL-USER> (pushnew "-I/usr/local/include/" iolib-grovel::*cc-flags* :test (function string=))
2015-05-18T10:04:04Z Posterdati: ("-I/usr/local/include/" "-Wno-write-strings")
2015-05-18T10:04:04Z Posterdati: CL-USER>
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2015-05-18T10:04:27Z Posterdati: seems to go
2015-05-18T10:04:30Z Posterdati: nice
2015-05-18T10:04:32Z Posterdati: thanks
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2015-05-18T10:05:27Z Posterdati: error on libfixposix, I hope I should add a -l switch too!
2015-05-18T10:07:26Z Posterdati: -L not workind
2015-05-18T10:07:28Z Posterdati: -L not working
2015-05-18T10:07:39Z Posterdati: in *cc-flags*
2015-05-18T10:07:54Z jackdaniel: doesn't -L belong to ld-flags?
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2015-05-18T10:08:56Z Posterdati: iolib-grovel::*ld-flags*
2015-05-18T10:08:56Z Posterdati: ; Evaluation aborted on #<UNBOUND-VARIABLE #x45718E8E>.
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2015-05-18T10:14:22Z Posterdati: mmmh I did ldconfig /usr/local/lib
2015-05-18T10:14:25Z Posterdati: seems to go
2015-05-18T10:15:01Z Posterdati: us exciting to have a full cl on a beaglebone!
2015-05-18T10:16:26Z Posterdati: done!
2015-05-18T10:16:28Z Posterdati: thanks
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2015-05-18T10:23:52Z loke: Can anyone tell me if there is an usocket problem with CCL right now?
2015-05-18T10:23:56Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2015-05-18T10:24:08Z loke: I'm trying to simply do a drakma:http-request (trying to get www.google.com) and I get an error in usocket
2015-05-18T10:24:23Z loke: can anyone else try it and tell me if it's something wrong with my local environment?>
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2015-05-18T10:25:24Z jackdaniel: loke: I've heard drakma made some incompatible change recently, and it's on quicklisp - but not sure if it's ccl specific. Problem I refer to is fixed on github, maybe try to clone drakma to your local-projects and check
2015-05-18T10:25:59Z loke: jackdaniel: Can you try to simply do a drakma:http-request "http://www.google.com") from your CCL and tell me if it works?
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2015-05-18T10:28:21Z Shinmera: loke: works fine for me.
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2015-05-18T10:28:37Z jackdaniel: the value nil is not of the expected type
2015-05-18T10:28:54Z Shinmera: Ah, hold on, I'm not on the latest QL.
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2015-05-18T10:30:06Z jackdaniel: loke: ↑
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2015-05-18T10:31:54Z Shinmera: loke: Works fine for me on drakma "1.3.13" ccl "Version 1.10-r16196  (LinuxX8664)"
2015-05-18T10:31:56Z jackdaniel: it works on ecl tough, so i think it's something ccl specific
2015-05-18T10:32:12Z loke: I'
2015-05-18T10:32:16Z loke: I'm using cc 1.11
2015-05-18T10:32:24Z loke: Hmm
2015-05-18T10:32:34Z jackdaniel: "Version 1.11-dev-r16376  (LinuxX8664)"
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2015-05-18T10:33:03Z loke: r16390 here
2015-05-18T10:33:16Z loke: What version of usocket?
2015-05-18T10:33:31Z Shinmera: "0.6.2"
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2015-05-18T10:33:55Z loke: wtf
2015-05-18T10:34:03Z jackdaniel: same
2015-05-18T10:34:09Z loke: ah
2015-05-18T10:34:32Z jackdaniel: it's quicklisp 2015-05-05
2015-05-18T10:34:32Z loke: jackdaniel: OK, so we do have the same issue
2015-05-18T10:34:36Z loke: Same here
2015-05-18T10:34:43Z loke: Shinmera: it worked on the old QL?
2015-05-18T10:34:49Z jackdaniel: so probably ccl messed something a bit
2015-05-18T10:35:22Z loke: I don't see how a ccl can be released which breaks drakma. Doesn't pretty much all application use it in one way or the other?
2015-05-18T10:35:30Z Shinmera: loke: Worked on both old and new.
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2015-05-18T10:35:42Z Shinmera: I'm on the latest QL now.
2015-05-18T10:35:49Z loke: Shinmera: OK, so it's definitely a problem with newer ccl's then
2015-05-18T10:35:56Z H4ns checks out ccl trunk to see
2015-05-18T10:36:13Z Shinmera: I'm not going to upgrade CCL to see if it'll break though
2015-05-18T10:36:16Z jackdaniel: loke: it's trunk ,not release (I think, pulled from repo)
2015-05-18T10:36:24Z Shinmera wants to stay with the version the aur package provides
2015-05-18T10:36:45Z jackdaniel: tehre is also ccl-svn ;)
2015-05-18T10:36:51Z jackdaniel: in aur
2015-05-18T10:36:58Z loke: jackdaniel: that's the one I was using
2015-05-18T10:37:16Z loke: getting ccl-bin now
2015-05-18T10:37:17Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: Ah. Still, I'd rather stick with stable.
2015-05-18T10:37:35Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: yeah, I'm downgrading now ^_^
2015-05-18T10:38:22Z jackdaniel: (it broke my cl-test-grid btw - 12h of computing *all* libs and can't send report) - just hadn't time to diagnose
2015-05-18T10:40:51Z loke: Wtf
2015-05-18T10:41:00Z jackdaniel: loke?
2015-05-18T10:41:09Z loke: SBCL and CCL 1.11 can load CL+SSL, but with CCL 1.10 I can't
2015-05-18T10:41:14Z jackdaniel: what terrible failure ?
2015-05-18T10:41:24Z loke: Yes, that's a terrible failure IMHO
2015-05-18T10:42:30Z H4ns: i can't rebuild ccl from trunk, and i don't have time to fix that now.  if anyone gets down to the bottom and finds drakma to be at fault, please file an issue.
2015-05-18T10:43:07Z jackdaniel: loke: ccl 1.10 loads cl+ssl flawlessly here
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2015-05-18T10:43:23Z jackdaniel: clear cache maybe
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2015-05-18T10:44:58Z loke: I just installed 1.10. I'd expect the cache for that version to be clear already
2015-05-18T10:45:21Z jackdaniel: sounds reasonable, yet I think it's not fault of ccl 1.10
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2015-05-18T10:47:00Z Posterdati: is anyone programming i2c with commin lisp?
2015-05-18T10:47:37Z jackdaniel: are you writing some kind of userspace driver?
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2015-05-18T10:49:11Z Posterdati: not for now
2015-05-18T10:49:27Z Posterdati: just a bunch of functions for my application
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2015-05-18T10:53:45Z Posterdati: Process inferior-lisp segmentation fault
2015-05-18T10:53:46Z Posterdati: nice
2015-05-18T10:53:59Z Posterdati: ccl is performing at its best!
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2015-05-18T10:56:46Z fe[nl]ix: Posterdati: you shouldn't try to add -I/usr/local/include/ to the IOlib build process
2015-05-18T10:56:52Z fe[nl]ix: that's a problem with the system compiler
2015-05-18T10:57:32Z Posterdati: but iolib was compiled
2015-05-18T10:57:38Z Posterdati: at last
2015-05-18T11:01:46Z Posterdati: I will give ecl a try
2015-05-18T11:02:15Z loke: OK, I see now why ccl failed
2015-05-18T11:02:18Z loke: it's the 32-bit version
2015-05-18T11:02:41Z loke: I don't have 32-bit openssl installed
2015-05-18T11:02:50Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: share impressions when you do!
2015-05-18T11:04:28Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: I will bother you, and ask your help too!
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2015-05-18T11:05:16Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: I'm compiling it!
2015-05-18T11:05:37Z jackdaniel: what branch?
2015-05-18T11:05:59Z Posterdati: ecl-15.3.7.tgz from http://sourceforge.net/projects/ecls/?source=typ_redirect
2015-05-18T11:07:37Z Posterdati: //home/root/ecl-15.3.7/src/libffi/src/arm/sysv.S:266: Error: selected processor does not support `flddle d0,[ip]'
2015-05-18T11:07:44Z Posterdati: nice!
2015-05-18T11:08:04Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: take from https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl from branch develop
2015-05-18T11:08:09Z jackdaniel: it has updated libffi
2015-05-18T11:08:46Z jackdaniel: and has various fixes (ie make-encoding doesn't work on 15.3.7) - I'm performing regression tests now, so not sure if there are any
2015-05-18T11:09:16Z Posterdati: error: Problem with the SSL CA cert (path? access rights?) while accessing https
2015-05-18T11:09:16Z Posterdati: fatal: HTTP request failed
2015-05-18T11:09:27Z Posterdati: cannot git clone it
2015-05-18T11:09:38Z jackdaniel: git@gitlab.com:embeddable-common-lisp/ecl.git <-
2015-05-18T11:09:52Z jackdaniel: or https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/repository/archive.tar.gz
2015-05-18T11:09:58Z jackdaniel: with wget
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2015-05-18T11:11:42Z jackdaniel: or if you want to use sourceforge, you can use --with-ffi=system to use libffi from distribution
2015-05-18T11:12:05Z Posterdati: wget https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/repository/archive.tar.gz
2015-05-18T11:12:05Z Posterdati: wget: not an http or ftp url: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/repository/archive.tar.gz
2015-05-18T11:12:55Z jackdaniel: wget -c *
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2015-05-18T11:13:25Z Posterdati: same
2015-05-18T11:14:12Z jackdaniel: I wonder what kind of distribution you have in that case
2015-05-18T11:14:16Z jackdaniel: have you considered http://archlinuxarm.org/ ?
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2015-05-18T11:17:06Z jackdaniel: http://hellsgate.pl/static/ecl-15.3.7-develop.tar.gz try this
2015-05-18T11:17:08Z jackdaniel: it's pure http
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2015-05-18T11:23:49Z jackdaniel: a, and to use iolib with ecl you have to put in local-projects cffi pulled from git - version in quicklisp isn't aware, that ecl has implemented some methods
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2015-05-18T11:32:46Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: downloaded
2015-05-18T11:33:38Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: I'm running angstrom
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2015-05-18T11:33:46Z Xach: seems like a good time for a new cffi release
2015-05-18T11:34:46Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: wheezy kernel trash the board :)
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2015-05-18T11:40:38Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: it is compiling...
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2015-05-18T11:59:49Z jackdaniel: yeah, compilation of/win 14
2015-05-18T11:59:51Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: your work is huge! Still compiling!
2015-05-18T12:00:21Z jackdaniel: it's not my work, I just maintain it standing on the shoulders of giants ;-)
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2015-05-18T12:01:01Z Posterdati: you have to climb the giant first! :)
2015-05-18T12:01:10Z Xach: in the shadow of the colossus
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2015-05-18T12:01:29Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: was it a work by tahichi yuasa?
2015-05-18T12:01:31Z jackdaniel: compiling on arm can take a while tough
2015-05-18T12:02:30Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: yes, and many others
2015-05-18T12:02:45Z Posterdati: impressive
2015-05-18T12:03:11Z jackdaniel: that is a nice idea for article on ecl quarterly
2015-05-18T12:03:14Z jackdaniel: history of ecl ^_^
2015-05-18T12:03:31Z jackdaniel: if my english could be a little better *sigh*
2015-05-18T12:03:46Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: where are you from?
2015-05-18T12:03:53Z jackdaniel: from poland, why?
2015-05-18T12:04:19Z Posterdati: nothing, just curious
2015-05-18T12:05:48Z Posterdati: anyway to mantain could be ever worst than release a big project, espcially on the quicksands of modern cpus and micros
2015-05-18T12:07:22Z Posterdati: why there's no #ecl channel?
2015-05-18T12:07:35Z jackdaniel: what for? there is mailing list
2015-05-18T12:07:48Z Posterdati: there's even #sbcl
2015-05-18T12:07:51Z jackdaniel: if there would be a bunch of ecl hackers, then probably separate channel would do
2015-05-18T12:08:00Z jackdaniel: if irc would be their thing
2015-05-18T12:08:48Z loz: hi guys, are you using slime object inspector?
2015-05-18T12:08:50Z jackdaniel: btw, ad: contribute to ecl ;)
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2015-05-18T12:10:05Z loz: i cant figure out how to get source of object with slime-inspector-show-source
2015-05-18T12:10:07Z jackdaniel: big part of it is portable lisp code, so if you're scared of C, it's not a problem :p
2015-05-18T12:10:29Z Posterdati: not scared... Bored
2015-05-18T12:10:56Z jackdaniel: C is a very nice language - that's why I've got interested in ecl in a first place
2015-05-18T12:11:06Z jackdaniel: possibility to inline lisp in c and vice-versa
2015-05-18T12:11:18Z jackdaniel: s/a/at/
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2015-05-18T12:12:19Z Posterdati: c is useful
2015-05-18T12:13:15Z Posterdati: but it bring you to investigate c++ further, then one find that c++ should be named c--
2015-05-18T12:13:20Z Posterdati: or --c
2015-05-18T12:13:56Z jackdaniel: I wouldn't compare C and C++
2015-05-18T12:14:12Z jackdaniel: they are as distant (if not more) as Scheme and CL
2015-05-18T12:14:34Z pjb: jackdaniel: you cannot argue that.
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2015-05-18T12:14:58Z pjb: There are a lot more C programs that you can compile with a C++ compiler than scheme vs. CL.
2015-05-18T12:15:07Z pjb: Have a look at (intersection common-lisp emacs-lisp scheme) http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/intersection-r5rs-common-lisp-emacs-lisp/
2015-05-18T12:16:52Z jackdaniel: fact that you can compile C code with C++ compiler is irrevelant, it's still C code
2015-05-18T12:18:02Z pjb: right. you can also compile c code with a CL compiler with Vacietis.
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2015-05-18T12:19:45Z Posterdati: c should be a subset of c++
2015-05-18T12:22:10Z Posterdati: and secondly a c++ program could be translated in c one
2015-05-18T12:23:11Z Posterdati: that was the early c++ compiler behaviour like amiga SAS C/C++ line of compilers
2015-05-18T12:26:31Z jackdaniel: btw - http://libcello.org/
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2015-05-18T12:29:42Z christoph_debian: Posterdati: well c is not a proper subset ;-)
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2015-05-18T12:29:52Z christoph_debian: and common lisp can also be translated to c programs
2015-05-18T12:29:54Z christoph_debian: ;-)
2015-05-18T12:30:04Z christoph_debian: ecl still does that
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2015-05-18T12:38:58Z DeadTrickster: how asdf :static-file can be useful?
2015-05-18T12:39:26Z Xach: DeadTrickster: if you want to use the asdf object as a record of all files in your project, even those that are not lisp sources to be built
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2015-05-18T12:39:45Z Xach: DeadTrickster: that is not a very common usage, but it does happen sometimes
2015-05-18T12:40:25Z DeadTrickster: Xach, I understand this I maybe should ask for usage scenario
2015-05-18T12:40:54Z DeadTrickster: like OK asdf knows about this file so what can I do now?
2015-05-18T12:41:13Z Shinmera: Check for its existence.
2015-05-18T12:41:22Z Shinmera: Other components could act on it, too.
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2015-05-18T12:44:26Z DeadTrickster: I thought they somehow embedded in lisp runtime in dictionary-like structure
2015-05-18T12:45:00Z DeadTrickster: http://xach.livejournal.com/294639.html it's 2011, is it obsolete?
2015-05-18T12:45:24Z DeadTrickster: or better: if I have static-file entry how to get its full path
2015-05-18T12:45:30Z DeadTrickster: &
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2015-05-18T12:46:22Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: compiled without errors!
2015-05-18T12:46:58Z Posterdati: make install
2015-05-18T12:47:22Z Posterdati: Copyright (C) 2015 Daniel Kochmanski
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2015-05-18T12:47:25Z Posterdati: is it you?
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2015-05-18T12:48:29Z jackdaniel: yes
2015-05-18T12:48:41Z jackdaniel: Kochmański, but "ń" broke windows console ^_^
2015-05-18T12:49:22Z pjb: what is it? who cares about it?
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2015-05-18T12:49:45Z jackdaniel: hm, I think a bunch of potential free software supporters
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2015-05-18T12:50:31Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: it is interacting with slime! Cool!
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2015-05-18T12:51:41Z jackdaniel: again, not my work :p if you encounter any problems, let me know - if any bugs, submit them (unless  already here -- https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues)
2015-05-18T12:52:26Z jackdaniel: clisp uses gnu lightning?
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2015-05-18T13:27:46Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: seems to work, it is compiling flexi-streams due to a quickload command for hunchentoot
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2015-05-18T13:30:04Z jackdaniel: sounds good
2015-05-18T13:30:24Z Posterdati: babel now
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2015-05-18T13:30:41Z jackdaniel: it might take a while, because it produces C code, and then compiles it with gcc
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2015-05-18T13:31:10Z jackdaniel: but next run should work smoothier
2015-05-18T13:31:19Z Posterdati: yes I hopw
2015-05-18T13:31:20Z Posterdati: yes I hope
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2015-05-18T13:32:16Z jackdaniel: loading all libraries from scrach from quicklisp on pretty strong 64 laptop takes ~10h
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2015-05-18T13:33:00Z Posterdati: not an intel based one
2015-05-18T13:33:05Z Posterdati: I hope :)
2015-05-18T13:33:23Z jackdaniel: by all libraries I mean ~1300 libraries available on quicklisp
2015-05-18T13:33:39Z Posterdati: I do not need them
2015-05-18T13:33:45Z Posterdati: I mean not all of them
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2015-05-18T13:36:44Z jackdaniel: what is a name of ccl init file?
2015-05-18T13:36:51Z jackdaniel: .cclrc doesn't seem to work
2015-05-18T13:37:08Z mood: jackdaniel: .ccl-init.lisp
2015-05-18T13:37:13Z Posterdati: .ccl-init.lisp
2015-05-18T13:37:14Z pjb: ~/ccl-init.lisp
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2015-05-18T13:37:18Z pjb: no need for a dot.
2015-05-18T13:37:29Z jackdaniel: thanks
2015-05-18T13:37:48Z Posterdati: I've got it with the leading . and it worked
2015-05-18T13:38:14Z pjb: now question: what happens when you have both ? :-)
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2015-05-18T13:39:09Z Posterdati: you need to release the core
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2015-05-18T13:39:20Z Posterdati: before it'll breach
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2015-05-18T13:39:56Z jackdaniel: the universe will explode
2015-05-18T13:39:58Z Posterdati: or change the tachyons phase
2015-05-18T13:40:11Z jackdaniel: doing it, in 3.. 2.. 1..
2015-05-18T13:40:32Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: no it will die cold
2015-05-18T13:41:42Z jackdaniel: condition of type vector-size-limitation ;_;
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2015-05-18T13:42:07Z Posterdati: where and when?
2015-05-18T13:42:28Z jackdaniel: on ccl when loading reporting results for testing
2015-05-18T13:42:43Z pjb: try ccl64
2015-05-18T13:42:51Z Posterdati: try loading the md5 package
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2015-05-18T13:43:54Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: md5 package compiles on ecl, it has loaded it now
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2015-05-18T13:44:43Z jackdaniel: so i have to rebuild ccl?
2015-05-18T13:44:55Z Posterdati: no just forget it
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2015-05-18T13:55:49Z jackdaniel: sbcl: heap exhausted, game over ;D
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2015-05-18T13:59:03Z jackdaniel: b
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2015-05-18T14:15:20Z Posterdati: pjb: a slaves factory contected me ten minutes ago
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2015-05-18T14:21:37Z jackdaniel: slaves factory?
2015-05-18T14:22:11Z wbooze: and ?
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2015-05-18T14:28:28Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: yes consulting firms
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2015-05-18T14:28:51Z jackdaniel: is it a name of one of them, or just a joke?
2015-05-18T14:29:10Z Posterdati: well like accenture
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2015-05-18T14:33:15Z Posterdati: they use to search for people to work almost for free in their projects, well they resell your job to others so they can have 900 euros per day and give to the slave 1200, 1500 euros per month
2015-05-18T14:33:39Z jackdaniel: it's still big amount of money here ^_^
2015-05-18T14:34:02Z jackdaniel: maybe not big, above average tough
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2015-05-18T14:36:41Z Posterdati: are 1200 euros a lot of money?
2015-05-18T14:37:19Z Xach: Posterdati: is it a common lisp job?
2015-05-18T14:37:31Z Posterdati: Xach: no
2015-05-18T14:37:39Z Xach: Please discuss it somewhere else, then.
2015-05-18T14:37:39Z jackdaniel: roughly calculating it's 4800 zlotych, while median is 3000 i think
2015-05-18T14:37:45Z Posterdati: an embedded project
2015-05-18T14:37:59Z jackdaniel: right, sorry
2015-05-18T14:38:38Z Posterdati: %CLOSE-FOREIGN-LIBRARY unimplemented.
2015-05-18T14:38:38Z Posterdati:    [Condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR]
2015-05-18T14:38:38Z remi`bd: well, Posterdati, isn’t that the principle of capitalism? One’s work is to sell the other’s work and make money from the margin.
2015-05-18T14:38:50Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: what is it?
2015-05-18T14:38:54Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: this is problem I mentioned, new cffi has it right
2015-05-18T14:39:07Z Posterdati: ah
2015-05-18T14:39:10Z jackdaniel: just suck it from github and put in quicklisp/local-projects, should work
2015-05-18T14:39:15Z remi`bd: For instance, I believe traders could be even more perceived as “slaves” the definition you’ve given
2015-05-18T14:39:16Z Posterdati: ok
2015-05-18T14:39:38Z jackdaniel: -> #lispcafe
2015-05-18T14:39:48Z remi`bd: ok
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2015-05-18T14:58:05Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: seems to work :)
2015-05-18T14:58:21Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: thanks
2015-05-18T14:58:32Z jackdaniel: yw
2015-05-18T14:58:57Z Posterdati: so I can program the juicy i2c devices on this board!
2015-05-18T14:59:08Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: in ecl you can inline C
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2015-05-18T14:59:19Z Posterdati: juicy!
2015-05-18T14:59:29Z Posterdati: pjb: told me that too!
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2015-05-18T15:36:25Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: is it normal that every time I load my projects it recompiles cffi?
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2015-05-18T15:38:36Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: rather not, but are you sure it recompiles it?
2015-05-18T15:38:45Z Posterdati: yes
2015-05-18T15:39:06Z Posterdati: ; Loading "leds"
2015-05-18T15:39:06Z Posterdati: ; g++ -marm -I/usr/local/include/ -Wno-write-strings ...
2015-05-18T15:39:57Z jackdaniel: it recompiles cffi or your project?
2015-05-18T15:40:04Z jackdaniel: run (ql:quickload :cffi :verbose t)
2015-05-18T15:40:13Z Posterdati: cffi
2015-05-18T15:40:49Z jackdaniel: I've loaded :cffi on my arm plug, and first time it compiled it, yet
2015-05-18T15:40:54Z jackdaniel: but second time it just loaded
2015-05-18T15:40:54Z Posterdati: ah ol
2015-05-18T15:41:02Z Posterdati: ah ok, it recompiles my code!
2015-05-18T15:41:12Z jackdaniel: that makes more sense I think
2015-05-18T15:41:20Z Posterdati: because I changed some stuff inside it
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2015-05-18T16:18:34Z Posterdati: #ecl is open now!
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2015-05-18T16:20:06Z Posterdati: fe[nl]ix: seems that this gcc won't look for lfp.h in /usr/local/include ... strange, is it possible to setup it system wide?
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2015-05-18T16:21:16Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: include directories should be set system-wide
2015-05-18T16:21:44Z Posterdati: on this angstrom seems this is not the case
2015-05-18T16:23:12Z pjb: Posterdati: add an entry in http://cliki.net/IRC
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2015-05-18T16:35:38Z jackdaniel: hm, #ecl is taken, so #embeddable-cl is now open fwiw
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2015-05-18T17:03:16Z failproofshark: hello
2015-05-18T17:03:57Z wbooze: evening failproofshark rof
2015-05-18T17:04:10Z wbooze: -rof* meh :/
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2015-05-18T17:06:04Z jackdaniel: o/
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2015-05-18T17:10:46Z failproofshark: hello wbooze and jackdaniel
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2015-05-18T17:19:21Z trinque: anyone have a recommended mcclim tutorial?
2015-05-18T17:19:31Z trinque: seems a very interesting way to do UI
2015-05-18T17:19:42Z trinque: as I understand it, more command-line driven than typical UI
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2015-05-18T17:24:32Z oleo: nope trinque
2015-05-18T17:24:51Z oleo: well the ones from the webs are very short actually....
2015-05-18T17:24:52Z trinque: oleo: heh just start banging on mcclim and see what happens?
2015-05-18T17:25:02Z oleo: well, sort of.....
2015-05-18T17:25:20Z oleo: you can use my fork, or do your own....
2015-05-18T17:25:30Z oleo: github/leventguel, have a look there....
2015-05-18T17:25:38Z trinque: thanks, will do
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2015-05-18T17:26:16Z trinque: oleo: do I understand it correctly? it's a sort of command line interface which can also display UI?
2015-05-18T17:26:23Z oleo: i'm trying to improve it, but most of the stuff is about looks just, only very rarely i do find real stuff for fixing....
2015-05-18T17:26:23Z trinque: *graphical UI
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2015-05-18T17:27:01Z oleo: yes
2015-05-18T17:27:29Z trinque: seems highly applicable to for example database applications where the user's expected to do some querying
2015-05-18T17:27:49Z oleo: 1 frame,  2 panes (most basic explanation) 1 pane for output 1 for input (command processing)
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2015-05-18T17:28:08Z oleo: yes, you could do that too....
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2015-05-18T17:28:19Z oleo: tho lispworks has all the better feats i bet.....
2015-05-18T17:28:34Z oleo: with their capi and whole setup.....
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2015-05-18T17:29:48Z trinque: yeah they mention database support as one of the features of their enterprise thing
2015-05-18T17:30:15Z oleo: jep, so if you are into pro stuff go there, otherwise for learning purposes mcclim is totally sufficient....
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2015-05-18T17:30:16Z trinque: there's also this guy http://marijnhaverbeke.nl/postmodern/
2015-05-18T17:30:30Z trinque: I think I'll hack on mcclim for now; my intent is mostly to learn
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2015-05-18T17:30:43Z oleo: ok
2015-05-18T17:31:07Z oleo: fine, i see more and more people get interested in mcclim in this channel
2015-05-18T17:31:14Z oleo: geez :)
2015-05-18T17:31:17Z trinque: cool, I'll stick around
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2015-05-18T19:11:45Z JSharpe: Hello, i'm getting a DEFINE is undefined error when loading my lisp file in gcl.exe
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2015-05-18T19:12:29Z JSharpe: http://pastebin.com/MAL0VTrT
2015-05-18T19:13:08Z JSharpe: I'm following the code from https://youtu.be/dlbMuv-jix8?list=PLB63C06FAF154F047&t=871
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2015-05-18T19:14:03Z JSharpe: and executing the file as gcl.exe -load C:\Users\Jamie\Documents\Lisp\Examples.lsp
2015-05-18T19:14:09Z failproofshark: JSharpe: thats scheme
2015-05-18T19:14:10Z failproofshark: not CL
2015-05-18T19:14:47Z failproofshark: to define a function in common lisp you use the defun macro
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2015-05-18T19:16:46Z JSharpe: ah, thanks
2015-05-18T19:17:55Z failproofshark: no problem
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2015-05-18T19:35:29Z affine-pyon is now known as projective-pyon
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2015-05-18T19:50:51Z jjkola: hi
2015-05-18T19:50:57Z jackdaniel: jjkola: hi :)
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2015-05-18T19:53:36Z jjkola: is there an easy way to disable warnings about package version information? I mean when I load a package for some packages I get a warning about non-conformant version number etc.
2015-05-18T19:54:06Z jackdaniel: jjkola: in what cl implementation / with what package manager?
2015-05-18T19:54:50Z jjkola: sbcl and packages fetched with quicklisp (afterwards I'm just using require)
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2015-05-18T19:58:09Z jackdaniel: hm, didn't have this problem
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2015-05-18T20:00:58Z jjkola: did you use require? also, not all packages are problematic but for example uiop is one of them (by using 1.1-dev version tag)
2015-05-18T20:01:43Z jackdaniel: I usually link projects I depend (if not ql vanilla) in quicklisp/local-projects
2015-05-18T20:01:50Z jackdaniel: and declare dependencies in asd file
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2015-05-18T20:03:08Z jjkola: I have thought about using an asd file but wanted to get things running quickly so opted for loading script
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2015-05-18T20:05:15Z Xach: asdf blarts about it
2015-05-18T20:05:26Z Xach: if you don't use integers with dots between it will complain
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2015-05-18T20:08:55Z jjkola: Xach: is there a way to suppress those? I don't want extra output in my cron stuff
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2015-05-18T20:09:52Z Xach: jjkola: I don't know. When I put stuff in cron, i preload everything and save an image/executable.
2015-05-18T20:10:50Z jjkola: oh, I didn't think of that. Thanks
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2015-05-18T20:20:16Z Xach: jjkola: it does not look to me like it is configurable. you could always clobber and redefine asdf/parse-defsystem::normalize-version though.
2015-05-18T20:22:10Z jjkola: Xach: thanks for help
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2015-05-18T20:25:26Z Xach: another option: petition authors of all projects with asdf-incompatible version strings to switch to asdf-compatible version strings
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2015-05-18T20:35:59Z Shinmera: I'd like that option
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2015-05-18T20:45:31Z Xach: I'm not sure what's best in a world where each commit is a new version
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2015-05-18T20:46:46Z eudoxia should change version numbers more often
2015-05-18T20:46:59Z Xach: Though I *was* thinking about some kind of automatic interface diff report where you could tell what functions are new or what functions have different lambda lists or similar things
2015-05-18T20:46:59Z eudoxia: increase*, that is
2015-05-18T20:47:15Z Shinmera: I change version numbers for when I add new significant features or make breaking changes.
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2015-05-18T23:01:16Z hplc: is the microsoft "kinnect" based on a lisp dialect?
2015-05-18T23:02:10Z Xach: hplc: no
2015-05-18T23:02:57Z aeth: Is this preferable to coding something that does something similar? http://lisptips.com/post/43404489000/the-tree-walkers-of-cl
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2015-05-18T23:05:29Z aeth: e.g. another way to go through a tree is to do tail recursion on a MAPCAR, and another is to iterate over it
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2015-05-18T23:06:26Z Xach: Those aren't particularly preferable
2015-05-18T23:06:30Z Xach: the lisptips ones, that is
2015-05-18T23:06:33Z hplc: asking because a video i saw regarding south koreas autonumous sentry guards, where its stated that Samsung used kinect for the identification. And i though it MUST be some kind of A.I language to have a machine to decide when to flip the trigger switch
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2015-05-18T23:07:13Z aeth: It's Microsoft, they probably coded it in C#.
2015-05-18T23:07:15Z Xach: hplc: nope
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2015-05-18T23:07:28Z Xach: aeth: tail recursion on a mapcar?
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2015-05-18T23:08:14Z jasom: hplc: what's an A.I. language?
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2015-05-18T23:09:10Z hplc: isnt lisp, and  algol, 2 examples of that family?
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2015-05-18T23:09:53Z aeth: Xach: iirc, create two functions, the first calls a mapcar of a function on a tree, then that second function calls itself in the tail position if it finds a list
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2015-05-18T23:10:20Z aeth: Recursively mapping. I learned that from a Scheme book a long time ago
2015-05-18T23:12:20Z Xach: hplc: not really.
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2015-05-18T23:12:59Z aeth: hplc: AI is actually something I haven't seen in Lisp. That's very 1980s.
2015-05-18T23:14:37Z hplc: so what do present day robot hobbyists/enthusiasts use for language?
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2015-05-18T23:19:29Z hplc: perhaps wrong channel, perhaps its about prolog i seek
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2015-05-18T23:27:56Z aeth: hplc: what are you trying to write?
2015-05-18T23:28:51Z hplc: just starting to pickup on A.I programming as a hobby, total beginner / newb
2015-05-18T23:29:03Z Bike: robots often use horrid things hacked up from some assembly :p
2015-05-18T23:29:37Z aeth: You can AI program in Lisp. sbcl is ported to ARM now so you can do robots, I guess.
2015-05-18T23:30:23Z hplc: i do have an  an ARM based unit unit
2015-05-18T23:30:35Z hplc: raspberry PI is arm i think
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2015-05-18T23:30:45Z aeth: yes
2015-05-18T23:31:15Z hplc: does common lisp default to -77 version? or -90?
2015-05-18T23:32:18Z jlarocco_work: haha
2015-05-18T23:34:43Z Bike: is that a fortran joke
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2015-05-18T23:41:16Z aeth: hplc: what OS are you using on your Raspberry Pi?
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2015-05-18T23:41:50Z hplc: Raspian (debian)
2015-05-18T23:43:36Z aeth: Does it have SBCL in its software repository?
2015-05-18T23:44:59Z aeth: You will probably want to use either clisp or sbcl.
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2015-05-19T02:44:00Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-05-19T02:44:37Z akkad: hi beach
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2015-05-19T02:47:24Z drmeister: Hi beach
2015-05-19T02:47:46Z drmeister: I figured out the problem with cleavir-primop:consp and others.
2015-05-19T02:48:01Z beach: OK.
2015-05-19T02:48:17Z drmeister: My reader had a very subtle bug where internal symbols were made available to outside packages.
2015-05-19T02:48:29Z drmeister: So cleavir-primop:consp == cl::consp
2015-05-19T02:48:43Z drmeister: I never caught it until now (groan)
2015-05-19T02:48:54Z beach: Wow.
2015-05-19T02:48:58Z drmeister: Yeah
2015-05-19T02:49:26Z drmeister: I'm not sure that this was the only problem - recompiling everything now to find out.
2015-05-19T02:49:34Z beach: Is that what caused the crash?
2015-05-19T02:50:00Z drmeister: I'm not sure what caused that.  I haven't gotten back to that stage.
2015-05-19T02:50:32Z drmeister: I'm hoping it was and that it goes away.
2015-05-19T02:50:48Z beach: Sounds like a plausible cause.
2015-05-19T02:52:17Z beach: How could such a bug happen?
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2015-05-19T02:55:14Z drmeister: In the reader, when I intern symbols, if the symbol is FOO:BAR I wasn't checking if it was exported by the package FOO - I just went ahead and interned it.
2015-05-19T02:55:37Z beach: Hmm.
2015-05-19T02:55:48Z beach: How can that cause it to get interned in the wrong package?
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2015-05-19T02:59:13Z drmeister: I haven't quite figured that out yet.   It was a bug.
2015-05-19T02:59:29Z drmeister: I've been running some tests but they haven't been conclusive yet.
2015-05-19T03:00:41Z drmeister: cleavir-primops used :CL
2015-05-19T03:01:05Z drmeister: If I typed 'cleavir-primops:car I would get cl:car
2015-05-19T03:01:17Z beach: I see.
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2015-05-19T03:01:35Z drmeister: Does that explain it?  I'm not sure.
2015-05-19T03:02:09Z drmeister: No, it doesn't quite explain it.   Maybe something else is wrong with my packages.
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2015-05-19T03:03:08Z drmeister: In the Primops directory you have packages.lsp
2015-05-19T03:03:11Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/bgzPzF4Z
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2015-05-19T03:03:39Z drmeister: This is what creates the cleavir-primop:car symbol that shadows the cl:car symbol - correct?
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2015-05-19T03:04:30Z beach: No, it doesn't use the CL package, so there is no shadowing.
2015-05-19T03:04:43Z beach: But, hold on a sec...
2015-05-19T03:05:36Z beach: I see it.
2015-05-19T03:05:37Z drmeister: ECL and clasp DEFPACKAGE appear to automatically use :CL
2015-05-19T03:05:41Z beach: Yes.
2015-05-19T03:05:47Z drmeister: What?
2015-05-19T03:05:56Z beach: "If :use is not supplied, it defaults to the same implementation-dependent value as the :use argument to make-package."
2015-05-19T03:06:23Z drmeister: I guess SBCL doesn't use :CL?
2015-05-19T03:06:24Z beach: So, there should be a (:USE) in there.
2015-05-19T03:06:27Z beach: Correct.
2015-05-19T03:06:54Z drmeister: Right, it doesn't.
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2015-05-19T03:07:06Z beach: Try sticking (:USE) in there.
2015-05-19T03:07:13Z drmeister: So is this fixed by adding (:use ) to the defpackage definition?
2015-05-19T03:07:15Z beach: Then, no package should be USEd.
2015-05-19T03:07:25Z beach: It should be.
2015-05-19T03:07:30Z beach: clhs defpackage.
2015-05-19T03:07:30Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for defpackage..
2015-05-19T03:07:35Z beach: clhs defpackage
2015-05-19T03:07:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm
2015-05-19T03:08:29Z drmeister: Right, that stops it from using the :CL package.
2015-05-19T03:08:36Z drmeister: Was that the problem?
2015-05-19T03:09:15Z beach: Yes.
2015-05-19T03:09:52Z beach: Because there is no :SHADOW, the symbols that have the same name as those of a :USEd package ARE the same.
2015-05-19T03:10:17Z beach: Er, you know what I mean.
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2015-05-19T03:11:13Z akkad: odd ironclad (defclass pbkdf2 () ((digest-name :initarg :digest :reader kdf-digest))) makes lisp unhappy with a UNKNOWN keyword error on :digest
2015-05-19T03:11:13Z akkad:  
2015-05-19T03:11:42Z beach: drmeister: I pushed the fix.
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2015-05-19T03:15:55Z drmeister: Thanks
2015-05-19T03:16:23Z drmeister: Is that the only one that needs it?
2015-05-19T03:16:43Z beach: I don't know.
2015-05-19T03:16:58Z beach: Pretty much every other package :USEs CL.
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2015-05-19T03:22:11Z drmeister: You mentioned adding cleavir-primop:consp this morning - is that still necessary?
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2015-05-19T03:23:02Z beach: Things aren't as trivial with the inlining as I thought.
2015-05-19T03:23:17Z beach: There is a CONSP-INSTRUCTION, which is good.
2015-05-19T03:23:26Z beach: It has 2 successors.
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2015-05-19T03:23:42Z beach: But it needs to be generated from some AST.
2015-05-19T03:23:43Z drmeister: I was going to ask about that.
2015-05-19T03:24:02Z beach: So, there needs to be some CONSP-AST.
2015-05-19T03:24:12Z beach: But the question is, how does that AST look?
2015-05-19T03:24:39Z beach: The easy solution would be for it to have a single child and to return a boolean.
2015-05-19T03:25:22Z beach: Actually, I think that will work.
2015-05-19T03:25:49Z drmeister: What does a child represent in the AST?
2015-05-19T03:26:02Z drmeister: It's an argument?  A sub-expression?
2015-05-19T03:26:13Z beach: The AST computing the object to test for CONS-ness.
2015-05-19T03:27:58Z beach: I guess the "clean" solution would be to have cleavir-primop:consp that generates that AST.
2015-05-19T03:28:27Z beach: Then to define: (defun consp (object) (cleavir-primop:consp object)) and inline CONSP.
2015-05-19T03:29:23Z beach: Then we need a method for compiling the CONSP-AST that works both with 1 and 2 successors.
2015-05-19T03:30:02Z beach: I need to think about it some more.
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2015-05-19T03:31:23Z beach: A more consistent solution would be to have the CONSP-AST be possible only as the conditional in an IF-AST.
2015-05-19T03:32:10Z drmeister: There's no other way it could appear?   There is no OR-AST or AND-AST - correct?
2015-05-19T03:32:12Z beach: Then you would have (defun consp (object) (if (cleavir-primop:consp object) T NIL))
2015-05-19T03:32:16Z drmeister: Those are built from IF
2015-05-19T03:32:23Z beach: Right.
2015-05-19T03:33:30Z beach: But with this solution, some optimization on the HIR level will be necessary to get the full benefit of inlining CONSP.
2015-05-19T03:33:45Z beach: That's OK though.  That optimization step is needed anyway.
2015-05-19T03:34:17Z beach: But it means you won't get all the performance benefits without it.
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2015-05-19T03:35:26Z beach: I think I'll choose the first solution.
2015-05-19T03:35:54Z beach: The CONSP-AST can appear anywhere.
2015-05-19T03:35:58Z beach: It returns a boolean.
2015-05-19T03:36:11Z beach: It can be compiled in a context with 1 or 2 successors.
2015-05-19T03:36:28Z beach: Er, no.  Hold on.
2015-05-19T03:36:33Z beach: That won't work.
2015-05-19T03:36:38Z beach: So the second solution.
2015-05-19T03:36:59Z beach: I shouldn't make design decisions this early in the morning.
2015-05-19T03:37:11Z beach: The first solution won't work for the following reason...
2015-05-19T03:37:37Z beach: Constants such as T or NIL must appear at the AST level or they won't get hoisted.
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2015-05-19T03:37:47Z beach: Therefore, I can't introduce them at the HIR level.
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2015-05-19T03:38:44Z beach: So I can't compile CONSP-AST in a context with a single successor where its value is needed.
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2015-05-19T03:39:21Z drmeister: Right
2015-05-19T03:39:32Z drmeister: I'm with you on the hoisted argument.
2015-05-19T03:39:56Z beach: Therefore you must have (defun consp (object) (if (cleavir-primop:consp object) T NIL))
2015-05-19T03:40:07Z beach: That way the constants are introduced in the AST.
2015-05-19T03:40:57Z beach: So before I implement that optimization at the HIR level, the HIR code will look wasteful (because it is).
2015-05-19T03:41:33Z beach: There will be a CONSP-INSTRUCTION, with 2 successors.  One successor will put NIL in a lexical variable, and the other will put T in that variable.
2015-05-19T03:41:49Z drmeister: Isn't that a bit round about - to test consp and produce a value T or nil and then compare it to T or nil?
2015-05-19T03:41:55Z beach: Then there will be an EQ-instruction, testing that value against NIL.
2015-05-19T03:42:18Z beach: But that will happen in other situations, so it must be optimized away.
2015-05-19T03:42:34Z beach: So there is no point in treating it specially.
2015-05-19T03:42:47Z drmeister: I see
2015-05-19T03:43:01Z beach: So, no, the round about would be to put special code in there for each case.
2015-05-19T03:45:49Z beach: drmeister: It is important to avoid as much special-purpose code as possible.
2015-05-19T03:46:59Z beach: I know it is tempting to stick some special-purpose code in there for some obvious case like this, but this temptation must be resisted.
2015-05-19T03:47:01Z drmeister: So (defun consp (object) (if (cleavir-primop:consp object) T nil))   and the CONSP-INSTRUCTION tests for the consp bits on its input and does what with the two successors?
2015-05-19T03:47:31Z drmeister: I guess it branches to them?
2015-05-19T03:47:41Z beach: Er, yes.
2015-05-19T03:47:51Z beach: ... according to the result of the test.
2015-05-19T03:48:16Z drmeister: I understand.
2015-05-19T03:48:25Z beach: Or, rather, it chooses one or the other successor based on the result.
2015-05-19T03:48:36Z beach: Whether it branches or not is determined by code layout.
2015-05-19T03:48:44Z drmeister: Does that sum it up?
2015-05-19T03:48:52Z beach: I think so, yes.
2015-05-19T03:53:43Z drmeister: Now CAR and CDR are easier - but should they test for CONSP?
2015-05-19T03:53:57Z drmeister: cleavir-primop:car and cleavir-primop:cdr
2015-05-19T03:54:00Z Zhivago: Well, they also operate on NIL.
2015-05-19T03:54:08Z drmeister: Ah yes.
2015-05-19T03:54:23Z Zhivago: Perhaps they should test for LIST?
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2015-05-19T03:59:14Z drmeister: I have a special tag for CONS cells.   So I can quickly test for CONS - if it's not CONS then I'd test for NIL.
2015-05-19T04:02:16Z beach: drmeister: They should test for consp by calling CL:CONSP.
2015-05-19T04:02:55Z beach: drmeister: And they should test for NIL by calling CL:NULL.
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2015-05-19T04:03:56Z beach: (defun car (list) (if (consp list) (cleavir-primop:car list) (if (null list) nil (error ...))))
2015-05-19T04:04:04Z Zhivago: Although one wonders why LISTP doesn't implement the above mechanism for you?
2015-05-19T04:04:28Z Zhivago: Ah, I guess you want to dispatch.
2015-05-19T04:04:34Z beach: Yes.
2015-05-19T04:04:53Z Zhivago: Doesn't nil have unique identity that could be cheaply tested?
2015-05-19T04:05:27Z beach: Some implementations do that, and it's a bad idea in general.
2015-05-19T04:05:34Z Zhivago: Why?
2015-05-19T04:05:38Z drmeister: Zhivago: I don't do that anymore.
2015-05-19T04:05:47Z beach: Because CONSP is going to be true in almost all cases where CAR is used.
2015-05-19T04:06:08Z Zhivago: I mean, why is it a bad idea for nil to have unique identity that could be cheaply tested?
2015-05-19T04:06:10Z beach: So it's a waste of special-purpose code to treat NIL specially rather than as the symbol it is.
2015-05-19T04:06:30Z beach: Because it introduces special-purpose code that then has to be maintained.
2015-05-19T04:06:39Z Zhivago: Well, interned symbols have unique identity that can be cheaply tested ...
2015-05-19T04:06:56Z beach: For things like symbolp, symbol-name, symbol-package, intern, etc, etc, etc.
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2015-05-19T04:07:29Z beach: Zhivago: It is best to treat NIL as an ordinary symbol.  It is cheap enough because it will be in a register most likely.
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2015-05-19T04:08:39Z beach: drmeister: I need a break.  I'll be back in half an hour or so.
2015-05-19T04:08:39Z Zhivago: Well, I'm not suggesting that it not be an ordinary symbol.
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2015-05-19T04:42:39Z beach: Good.
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2015-05-19T04:57:08Z beach: drmeister: Still here?
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2015-05-19T05:11:21Z beach: minion: memo for drmeister: I added CLEAVIR-PRIMOP:CONSP and CLEAVIR-AST:CONSP-AST, and I added methods for generating the AST from the primop and for generating the CONSP-INSTRUCTION from the CONSP-AST.  Untested, though, because I currently don't have as complete an environment as you do.
2015-05-19T05:11:21Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell drmeister when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-05-19T05:22:53Z beach: minion: memo for drmeister: In the code for the Clasp function CL:CONSP it would be wise to add a comments saying that (IF (CLEAVIR-PRIMOP:CONSP OBJECT) T NIL) can not be simplified to (CLEAVIR-PRIMOP:CONSP OBJECT).
2015-05-19T05:22:53Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell drmeister when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-05-19T06:32:11Z akkad: for simple stuff is gtk easier on sbcl than say qt?
2015-05-19T06:32:14Z akkad has seen docs on both
2015-05-19T06:32:24Z H4ns: ltk is easier for simple stuff
2015-05-19T06:33:11Z akkad: perfect. thanks
2015-05-19T06:39:47Z jackdaniel: does quicklisp handle symlinks in local-projects correctly?
2015-05-19T06:41:06Z H4ns: jackdaniel: last time it tried it did
2015-05-19T06:42:21Z jackdaniel: hm, then my setup must be broken somehow, because it "saw" my system only after copying (symlink didn't work)
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2015-05-19T06:49:14Z akkad: exceptions over fonts having spaces, me does not miss tk
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2015-05-19T07:06:26Z jackdaniel: seems uffi needs some love after all, it blocks 51 systems directly or indirectly
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2015-05-19T07:35:14Z Shinmera: akkad: CommonQt can be a bit of a pain to get running due to the smoke dependency, but once you have that it's probably your best shot for writing GUIs.
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2015-05-19T07:35:36Z Shinmera: akkad: You might also want to look at Qtools if you do go down that route.
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2015-05-19T07:48:08Z jackdaniel: shiftf doesn't expand correctly :¢
2015-05-19T07:50:59Z jackdaniel: ok, this seems easy to fix
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2015-05-19T08:13:19Z akkad: yeah playing with it now.
2015-05-19T08:13:31Z akkad: going to make some capi equivalents
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2015-05-19T08:35:02Z akkad: commont-qt is pretty nice. no dealing with qmake
2015-05-19T08:38:09Z Shinmera: It has its own set of kludges instead.
2015-05-19T08:40:09Z jackdaniel: how to run iterate-tests package?
2015-05-19T08:40:39Z jackdaniel: it doesn't export anything and lacks something 'ala run-tests function
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2015-05-19T08:42:03Z Shinmera: ASDF:TEST-SYSTEM?
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2015-05-19T08:42:58Z jackdaniel: nah, seems, it uses (regression-test:do-tests)
2015-05-19T08:43:44Z schjetne:  Speaking of GUIs, I had a thought the other day to see how CCL's Cocoa bindings work and if they could also be used with GNUStep
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2015-05-19T08:54:59Z pjb: schjetne: ccl developers like to write ccl specific code :-(  Porting the ObjC bridge would be hard work.  There are several different versions of the objc runtime (Apple, GNU v1, GNU v2, Cocotron), which renders it even harder.
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2015-05-19T09:00:33Z pjb: schjetne: have a look at: http://benkard.de/objective-cl (it's outdated, but may serve perhaps).
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2015-05-19T09:15:25Z schjetne: pjb: it was mostly an idle thought, I don't really have any plans for an application.
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2015-05-19T09:16:22Z schjetne: So portability across implementations isn't really a big concern
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2015-05-19T09:25:50Z pjb: schjetne: it should be: a lot of people as for a cross platform GUI.
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2015-05-19T11:36:17Z Xach: jackdaniel: it should
2015-05-19T11:38:12Z francogrex: Hi I am trying to use sbcl & cl+j (jvm/jni) on windows it goes mostly fone but sometimes it crashes with such a message: http://paste.lisp.org/display/148400 (here when I was closing a java swing window... could this be related to sbcl (threads) or the jvm itself? If sbcl is there a waork around? (I've been told that sbcl threads and unix not good, but here it's on windows )
2015-05-19T11:38:31Z francogrex: s/fone/fine
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2015-05-19T11:39:26Z jackdaniel: francogrex: if it's jvm specific, have you considered abcl? it runs *in* jvm
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2015-05-19T11:39:48Z jackdaniel: so no need for glue
2015-05-19T11:40:22Z jackdaniel: and problem seems pretty low-level, thereof you should try in #sbcl I think
2015-05-19T11:40:22Z francogrex: jackdaniel: not yet, I was experimenting with that cl+j library
2015-05-19T11:40:40Z francogrex: i tried but #sbcl
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2015-05-19T11:59:25Z Xach: luis: is a new cffi release in the works?
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2015-05-19T12:26:14Z luis: Xach: whoa, it's been a long time. Give me a deadline :)
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2015-05-19T12:28:43Z Xach: june 1!
2015-05-19T12:31:30Z Xach: luis: a couple different people asked me about pulling from git for recent fixes, but if it's not too much trouble, I'd prefer a new release
2015-05-19T12:34:14Z jackdaniel: ./win 14
2015-05-19T12:34:24Z Xach: jackdaniel: what prompted the symlinks question earlier?
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2015-05-19T12:41:11Z jackdaniel: hm, I symlinked fresh project with system definition to local-projects and system couldn't be found
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2015-05-19T12:41:22Z jackdaniel: but restarting whole lisp process fixed it
2015-05-19T12:43:52Z Xach: jackdaniel: another option is to use (ql:register-local-projects)
2015-05-19T12:44:25Z Xach: jackdaniel: the automagic is based on file and directory timestamps. if local-projects is newer than local-projects/system-index.txt, everything is re-scanned automatically.
2015-05-19T12:44:27Z jackdaniel: o, thanks
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2015-05-19T12:46:03Z jackdaniel got today his birthday present - Lisp In Small Pieces
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2015-05-19T12:48:41Z pjb: jackdaniel: happy birthday!
2015-05-19T12:49:20Z jackdaniel: thanks pjb, yet my birthday was yesterday :p
2015-05-19T12:49:28Z jackdaniel: present just got here one day late :D
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2015-05-19T13:10:36Z luis: Xach: June 1st, will do. I wonder why people don't poke me instead? What makes you more pokable? :)
2015-05-19T13:11:53Z Xach: luis: not sure!
2015-05-19T13:11:55Z jackdaniel: man-in-a-middle°
2015-05-19T13:12:06Z jackdaniel: feature
2015-05-19T13:13:13Z Xach: that's what i'm talking about
2015-05-19T13:14:06Z Xach is asking him to change his upstreams
2015-05-19T13:15:56Z fe[nl]ix: luis: ping
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2015-05-19T13:26:01Z luis: pong
2015-05-19T13:29:04Z fe[nl]ix: we have an internal bug about CFFI's :boolean, which is normalized as :int
2015-05-19T13:29:40Z fe[nl]ix: that goes against the x86_64 ABI, which specifies it's 1 byte
2015-05-19T13:30:06Z luis: oh right, :boolean != C's bool
2015-05-19T13:30:11Z fe[nl]ix: so the idea would be to clear that :boolean is always :int
2015-05-19T13:30:27Z fe[nl]ix: whereas :bool would be the native ABI boolean
2015-05-19T13:30:55Z luis: I think we don't have :bool because the various Lisps don't support it
2015-05-19T13:31:13Z luis: but, does (:boolean :char) work?
2015-05-19T13:31:36Z fe[nl]ix: yes, but it would be nice to have whatever the local ABI is
2015-05-19T13:31:46Z fe[nl]ix: makes it easier to translate C headers
2015-05-19T13:31:58Z fe[nl]ix: especially since the normalized type might differ between architectures
2015-05-19T13:32:06Z luis: Ah, I see. So :bool would be an alias (:boolean :appropriate-type)
2015-05-19T13:32:12Z fe[nl]ix back in a few minutes
2015-05-19T13:32:16Z fe[nl]ix: luis: yes
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2015-05-19T14:07:24Z failproofshark: hello
2015-05-19T14:09:07Z theos: hey
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2015-05-19T14:10:00Z jackdaniel: theos: o/
2015-05-19T14:10:21Z theos: sup
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2015-05-19T14:12:14Z jackdaniel: you know, #1=(day . #1)
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2015-05-19T14:45:44Z oleo: hello :)
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2015-05-19T14:54:31Z jackdaniel: hello oleo
2015-05-19T14:54:53Z oleo: hello jackdaniel
2015-05-19T14:56:08Z wbooze: hello jackdaniel
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2015-05-19T14:57:18Z failproofshark: heya theos jackdaniel and oleo
2015-05-19T14:57:21Z failproofshark: how goes it?
2015-05-19T14:57:35Z wbooze: fine failproofshark hello to you too
2015-05-19T14:57:53Z failproofshark: hello wbooze
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2015-05-19T14:58:06Z wbooze: failproofshark: wbooze == oleo
2015-05-19T14:58:23Z oleo: don't get confused ! :)
2015-05-19T14:59:04Z failproofshark: D:
2015-05-19T14:59:14Z wbooze: hahahah
2015-05-19T14:59:40Z failproofshark: so it has come to this...
2015-05-19T15:00:05Z wbooze: i'm just using another client, which is common-lisp based.... and i'm testing stuff from time to time with it, that's why....
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2015-05-19T15:01:26Z failproofshark: ah nice
2015-05-19T15:01:59Z failproofshark: wait, where you the one that was working on something for beirc?
2015-05-19T15:02:08Z failproofshark: the person rather
2015-05-19T15:02:34Z wbooze: err, one of many possibly.....
2015-05-19T15:02:59Z failproofshark: right. sorry i just remember someone talking about it here a couple of days ago
2015-05-19T15:03:01Z failproofshark: i think
2015-05-19T15:03:10Z failproofshark: can you tell im bad at making small talk?
2015-05-19T15:03:37Z pjb: foremost, you're bad at choosing the channel where to small talk.  You should do that in #lispcafe!!!
2015-05-19T15:04:01Z theos: you should limit your coffee consumption too
2015-05-19T15:04:26Z pjb: sodas and waters are also available in #lispcafe.
2015-05-19T15:04:52Z failproofshark: pjb: err yes i forgot
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2015-05-19T15:25:16Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2015-05-19T15:25:40Z echo-area: Good evening beach
2015-05-19T15:29:15Z beach: DEFMETHOD is a strange macro.  It calls MAKE-METHOD-LAMBDA at macro-expansion time, passing it class prototypes of the generic function class and the associated method class.  However, at macro-expansion time, the generic function might very well not exist.
2015-05-19T15:30:20Z beach: I suppose in this case, it must use prototypes of STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION and STANDARD-METHOD.  But then, the resulting method may very well be incompatible with the generic function that it is supposed to be added to at load time.
2015-05-19T15:31:16Z beach: It is not possible to delay the call to MAKE-METHOD-LAMBDA, because the resulting lambda expression must be compiled in the lexical environment of the DEFMETHOD form.
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2015-05-19T16:16:19Z Bike: beach: amop mentions the environment weirdness, and there's that one paper on make-method-lambda being a not good idea
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2015-05-19T16:16:51Z beach: Yeah, I can see why someone would think that.
2015-05-19T16:17:42Z beach: On the other hand, I think it is immensely useful for creating special kinds of generic functions and methods.
2015-05-19T16:18:20Z Bike: well, aforementioned paper had a replacement. you've read it, right? "make method lambda considered harmful" or something, by pcos
2015-05-19T16:18:36Z beach: Actually, I don't remember reading it.
2015-05-19T16:19:06Z beach: I have it here.
2015-05-19T16:19:25Z Bike: oh, you probably should. iirc it made it so you pass an actual closure instead of the source silliness, and added some keyword arguments.
2015-05-19T16:19:56Z beach: Yeah.  Thanks for pointing it out.
2015-05-19T16:19:56Z Bike: the thing that bugs me with amop is that it's clearly presented as a pretty experimental try, not a standard, but nobody much has tried altering it
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2015-05-19T16:20:35Z beach: True.  I think they express the desire for further experimentation explicitly, don't they?
2015-05-19T16:21:32Z Bike: yes.
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2015-05-19T16:32:21Z aeth: Are (= (length foo) 0) and (null foo) identical if the foo is necessarily a list?
2015-05-19T16:32:43Z aeth: The difference seems to be an error if LENGTH is used when foo is not a sequence.
2015-05-19T16:33:26Z ggole: aeth: no, because the list might cycle
2015-05-19T16:33:35Z ggole: The complexity is also different
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2015-05-19T16:33:49Z aeth: ah, I didn't think about that.
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2015-05-19T16:34:03Z jjkola: hi
2015-05-19T16:34:22Z beach: Hello jjkola.
2015-05-19T16:34:38Z ggole: There's also endp specifically for lists
2015-05-19T16:35:02Z ggole: (Which will error if the argument is not listp.)
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2015-05-19T16:37:26Z aeth: Okay, so I'm recursively iterating over lists, and I have in the past done (= (length foo) 0) and (null foo), but there's also (endp foo) too?
2015-05-19T16:37:30Z aeth: Is endp preferred?
2015-05-19T16:38:00Z beach: ENDP is preferred if you want to reject dotted lists with an error.
2015-05-19T16:38:39Z ggole: Eh?
2015-05-19T16:38:50Z ggole: Oh, I see
2015-05-19T16:38:58Z jjkola: I tried suppressing the asdf package version number warnings by redefining the asdf/parse-defsystem::normalize-version but now I'm facing the problem that I can't seem to be able to suppress the redefinition warning...
2015-05-19T16:38:59Z beach: (= (LENGTH FOO) 0) has a cost proportional to the length of the list, so is almost never the thing to do.
2015-05-19T16:39:39Z jjkola: I tried following the instructions on http://www.sbcl.org/1.0/manual/Controlling-Verbosity.html but it didn't seem to help
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2015-05-19T16:40:00Z aeth: beach: I did that one by mistake, and idk why I did. It was at the bottom of a very long CASE so it rarely came up, anyway.
2015-05-19T16:40:07Z beach: aeth: I should have said that if you want an explicit error to be signaled when by accident you have a dotted list, then ENDP is preferable.
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2015-05-19T16:48:06Z otwieracz: Gents, how can I specify listen port in ningle?
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2015-05-19T16:51:19Z pjb: No idea.  What about reading the doc of ningle?
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2015-05-19T16:59:49Z otwieracz: I see that clack docs are more appropiate here.
2015-05-19T16:59:57Z otwieracz: However, another question.
2015-05-19T17:00:44Z otwieracz: How to access one field from initform of another field in CLOS?
2015-05-19T17:01:50Z failproofshark: you mean in the case of inheritance?
2015-05-19T17:01:59Z otwieracz: No, no.
2015-05-19T17:02:09Z otwieracz: I've got two fields in my class: a and b
2015-05-19T17:02:10Z failproofshark: oh ok i see
2015-05-19T17:02:17Z failproofshark: and you want to access a from b
2015-05-19T17:02:20Z otwieracz: and (b :initform (1+ a))
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2015-05-19T17:09:45Z otwieracz: OK, any ideas how?
2015-05-19T17:14:26Z ggole: after method on initialize-instance?
2015-05-19T17:16:08Z dim: is it ok to think about after method on initialize-instance as a constructor?
2015-05-19T17:16:43Z otwieracz: http://paste.lisp.org/display/148430
2015-05-19T17:16:44Z ggole: I'm not sure. They seem somewhat similar.
2015-05-19T17:16:53Z otwieracz: That's what I want to do.
2015-05-19T17:16:55Z otwieracz: More or less.
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2015-05-19T17:17:08Z otwieracz: But of course a is undefined in this context.
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2015-05-19T17:21:00Z dim: otwieracz: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-classes.html#object-initialization
2015-05-19T17:22:22Z dim: see in particular "Then you can define an :after method on INITIALIZE-INSTANCE that sets the account-type slot based on the value that has been stored in the balance slot."
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2015-05-19T17:24:00Z ggole: Like this, I think https://gist.github.com/e00f9913e20081cdfa30
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2015-05-19T17:24:26Z otwieracz: Hmm.
2015-05-19T17:24:34Z otwieracz: It's ugly.
2015-05-19T17:24:52Z ggole: You could always just write a function.
2015-05-19T17:25:24Z carro: Is this a good way to avoid creating new types in scheme: http://pastebin.com/jz5bCrPS
2015-05-19T17:25:50Z ggole: carro: try in #scheme, this channel is for Common Lisp.
2015-05-19T17:26:14Z carro: I imagine you guys have a similar problem
2015-05-19T17:26:22Z carro: How do you avoid creating objects?
2015-05-19T17:26:59Z carro: My mind is java-addled
2015-05-19T17:27:33Z ggole: By "avoiding objects", you mean not using defstruct/defclass?
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2015-05-19T17:28:13Z carro: yeah, I don't want to create new types, I want to learn the functional way of doing things
2015-05-19T17:28:39Z Xach: in common lisp, it is typical to create new types when convenient, and new objects when convenient, and use functional style when convenient
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2015-05-19T17:29:14Z ggole: I'm not sure what you mean by "functional style"... reinventing objects with closures?
2015-05-19T17:29:23Z carro: That makes sense, and that's the way I would do it. I guess scheme is too pure for me
2015-05-19T17:29:47Z ggole: Scheme has record types
2015-05-19T17:30:03Z ggole: You just have to use some silly library (as I recall, I'm not a scheme guy)
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2015-05-19T17:30:44Z carro: Everything I do in scheme feels like the wrong way.
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2015-05-19T17:31:14Z carro: There always seems to be some divine way of doing things that I just don't get
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2015-05-19T17:32:23Z dim: since you're here anyway, what about trying CL instead?
2015-05-19T17:33:24Z carro: I've bought several books on it. I figured the way to go was mastering scheme and then learning common lisp.
2015-05-19T17:33:49Z ggole: They're actually rather different.
2015-05-19T17:35:07Z carro: I've come to think of scheme as more pure.
2015-05-19T17:35:38Z dim: try haskell or maybe ocaml and mythryl for some pure functional experience, I guess
2015-05-19T17:36:46Z carro: I'd rather stick with lisps. Just running into brick walls trying to make scheme practical
2015-05-19T17:37:57Z ggole: Maybe use Racket?
2015-05-19T17:38:40Z H4ns: how about common lisp?  i mean, #lisp?
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2015-05-19T17:39:05Z carro: Racket is too reliant on oop, I don't want to be forced to use classes everytime I want to use graphics
2015-05-19T17:39:09Z carro: How are cl graphics?
2015-05-19T17:39:15Z Xach: classes everywhere
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2015-05-19T17:41:29Z carro: If I was fine with classes in my lisp, I'd use ABCL or Kawa for the libraries. But classes don't seem like lispy concepts
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2015-05-19T17:42:02Z Adlai: carro: note that you've not avoided creating a new type; the type is still there, it's just implemented using your own functions, rather than common abstractions
2015-05-19T17:42:14Z beach: carro: You have too many strange ideas and too many constraints.
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2015-05-19T17:42:27Z dim: as a data point, I dislike "classical" OOP very much and I enjoy using CLOS, it for me rings as the proper way to do it
2015-05-19T17:42:39Z beach: carro: CLOS is a very Lispy idea, and it is perhaps the most powerful object-oriented system around.
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2015-05-19T17:42:49Z dim: beach: +1
2015-05-19T17:42:55Z dim: (fwiw)
2015-05-19T17:43:17Z carro: I figured it was just Classes forced onto lisp.
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2015-05-19T17:43:31Z H4ns: people who complain about things not being "lispy" enough routinely don't have a lot of experience in actually using lisp.
2015-05-19T17:43:43Z Adlai: it's more like "lisp extended to generic functions, and then classes just emerge along the way"
2015-05-19T17:43:45Z beach: H4ns: Very well said.
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2015-05-19T17:44:13Z carro: That's me, only been doing this for a few months. I guess I'll go learn CL/CLOS.
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2015-05-19T17:46:10Z dim: as H4ns said I found that getting used to lisp takes lots of time and practice, and I'm not sure about "getting lisp" (as a whole) yet (it's gigantic)
2015-05-19T17:48:17Z failproofshark: they do say that those that have ascend to a higher form of being
2015-05-19T17:48:27Z failproofshark: or go to grey haven
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2015-05-19T17:49:12Z oGMo: bah it's not that different
2015-05-19T17:49:27Z dim: working on grey hair atm ;-)
2015-05-19T17:49:28Z oGMo: and you have to practice a lot with anything
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2015-05-19T17:50:03Z carro: I found some CLOS-inspired scheme libraries, so I'll try that out rather than learning an entire new language. Hopefully finally getting to graphics will give me some practical experience
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2015-05-19T17:50:55Z oGMo: the only practical experience is doing practical things, not a few lines of demo code
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2015-05-19T17:52:17Z carro: I'm trying to make an arcade-style game, that will probably get into a few thousand lines. Up until this point, I'd never gotten past 400 in a single project.
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2015-05-19T17:53:19Z oGMo: carro: feel free to join #lispgames ;) though we mostly work in CL, too
2015-05-19T17:53:53Z oGMo: but any "real" project start-to-finish is about as practical as it gets
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2015-05-19T17:54:14Z aeth: carro: The convenient libraries are mostly CL afaik so you might want to just code Scheme in CL.
2015-05-19T17:54:36Z aeth: If you use a decent Lisp implementation, you'll get tail calls, but it won't be portable to all of them.
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2015-05-19T17:54:59Z carro: oGMo: I will, thanks.
2015-05-19T17:55:35Z carro: I use chicken right now, it's pretty fast and it has decent libraries
2015-05-19T17:55:56Z aeth: Does it have an SDL library?
2015-05-19T17:56:23Z carro: Yeah, although I couldn't get it working, right now I'm using the Xlib library.
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2015-05-19T18:01:10Z mood: Interesting fact: Some code from Fare's POIU was used in a Swedish TV series. http://moviecode.tumblr.com/image/88245186920
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2015-05-19T19:34:09Z pjb: mood: in MS-Word?
2015-05-19T19:34:44Z pjb: (answer in #lispcafe)
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2015-05-19T19:58:52Z jjkola: night
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2015-05-19T20:01:56Z jackdaniel: good night
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2015-05-19T21:01:05Z jackdaniel: is adjustable-array a simple array?
2015-05-19T21:01:40Z jackdaniel: nvm, found it
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2015-05-19T21:01:51Z Xach: jackdaniel: a simple array might be adjustable, but adjustable arrays are not simple
2015-05-19T21:02:03Z Xach: "expressly adjustable" arrays are not simple
2015-05-19T21:02:08Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2015-05-19T21:59:35Z jackdaniel: wee, another bug squashed
2015-05-19T21:59:42Z jackdaniel: good night
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2015-05-20T02:25:02Z clarice: Wow, ERC is pretty nifty
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2015-05-20T02:46:34Z Bike: Can I do of-type (simple-array ...) in LOOP or will it try to destructure it?
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2015-05-20T02:57:39Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-05-20T03:09:18Z Bike: good morning, beach.
2015-05-20T03:10:24Z loke: Bike: yes?
2015-05-20T03:10:41Z Bike: if i pinged you it was by accident.
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2015-05-20T03:36:16Z pillton: G'day beach and everyone else.
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2015-05-20T03:42:12Z Lycurgus: still tuesday in jesusland
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2015-05-20T04:00:16Z drmeister: Hi beach
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2015-05-20T04:20:40Z beach: drmeister: What's up?
2015-05-20T04:21:18Z drmeister: I'm trying to incorporate my chemistry code.  I'm wrestling with the build system.
2015-05-20T04:21:50Z beach: Did you put it online somewhere?
2015-05-20T04:22:24Z drmeister: No, it's not ready
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2015-05-20T04:25:11Z beach: That sounds like a good step in the right direction, i.e. the direction back to your research.
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2015-05-20T04:29:44Z beach: In the past, before I had first-class global environments, I defined a macro named DEFINE-BUILT-IN-CLASS and kind of mirrored the entire standard MOP machinery for built-in classes, simply because SICL built-in classes have the same structure as standard classes.
2015-05-20T04:30:01Z beach: Now I am thinking, I should just allow :metaclass built-in-class instead.
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2015-05-20T04:30:46Z beach: The AMOP explicitly requires errors to be signaled for built-in classes in some situations, but I am thinking I should just make that a separate first-class global environment in the final system.
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2015-05-20T04:31:21Z beach: Can anyone think of some other trouble I would get into if I just use the standard machinery for built-in classes as well?
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2015-05-20T04:33:59Z beach: It would save a lot of code, and therefore a lot of maintenance, if I could just use the existing machinery.
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2015-05-20T04:46:00Z Zhivago: I think that it is hoped for by the standard that build-in classes are standard classes.
2015-05-20T04:46:20Z Zhivago: With the additional constraints on built-in classes to reduce the burden on implementors where this is tricky.
2015-05-20T04:46:54Z beach: Yeah, I see what you mean.
2015-05-20T04:47:52Z beach: I certainly would not want change-class to be applicable on a CONS or a FIXNUM. :)
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2015-05-20T06:46:30Z spacebat`: can a normal function be converted to a generic function without affecting already-compiled call sites? assuming the function was never inlined of course
2015-05-20T06:48:12Z Bike: Probably not?
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2015-05-20T06:49:44Z spacebat`: I'll have to try it out tonight
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2015-05-20T06:51:05Z pillton: It shouldn't be a problem. Calling a generic function is no different to calling a normal function.
2015-05-20T06:51:32Z spacebat`: that was my thought, but I guess it might depend on the implementation if its not in the standard
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2015-05-20T06:53:33Z pillton: Generic functions don't change the evaluation model.
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2015-05-20T06:54:30Z Bike: well i mean, you're talking about redefinition
2015-05-20T06:54:34Z Zhivago: Being functions (or rather procedures).
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2015-05-20T09:17:26Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: hi
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2015-05-20T09:18:59Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: I've got problem compiling on wheezy on a beagleboard black: http://paste.lisp.org/display/148459
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2015-05-20T09:19:57Z loke: is it possible to write a FORMAT string that formats the list '("N1" "N2" "N3") as: "N1, N2 and N3 are online"?
2015-05-20T09:20:13Z loke: I need are to become is if there is only a single element in the list, of course
2015-05-20T09:20:43Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: do you compile with system gmp or included with ecl?
2015-05-20T09:20:53Z jackdaniel: I'd suggest the latter
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2015-05-20T09:25:10Z jackdaniel: tfu, gc not gmp
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2015-05-20T09:26:27Z cadadar1: loke: Practical Common Lisp has some words no basic pluralization and conditional formatting: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/a-few-format-recipes.html
2015-05-20T09:27:03Z loke: cadadar1: I know, that one doesn't cover it. I have read the docs and I'm currently inclined to believe that it's not possible.
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2015-05-20T09:28:55Z jdz: clhs 22.3.7.2
2015-05-20T09:28:55Z specbot: Tilde Left-Bracket: Conditional Expression: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cgb.htm
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2015-05-20T09:43:23Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: what do you mean?
2015-05-20T09:43:42Z Posterdati: I specified ./configure
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2015-05-20T09:51:57Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: check ./configure --help
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2015-05-20T09:52:12Z Posterdati: I added ./configure --with-system-gmp=no
2015-05-20T09:52:17Z Posterdati: now
2015-05-20T09:52:35Z jackdaniel: not gmp, gc should be the one which is included
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2015-05-20T09:52:58Z Posterdati: ok, how can I change that?
2015-05-20T09:52:58Z jackdaniel: at least gc causes errors from log you posted
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2015-05-20T09:53:17Z jackdaniel: find an option in configure --help, I don't have sources on this computer
2015-05-20T09:53:23Z jackdaniel: and don't remember configure flags
2015-05-20T09:53:43Z Posterdati: an option for what?
2015-05-20T09:53:47Z Posterdati: gc?
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2015-05-20T09:54:51Z jackdaniel: configure option contains word "boehm" afair
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2015-05-20T09:55:13Z Posterdati: ./configure boehm
2015-05-20T09:55:14Z Posterdati: ????
2015-05-20T09:55:36Z jackdaniel: ./configure --help | grep boehm
2015-05-20T09:56:00Z Posterdati: --enable-boehm
2015-05-20T09:56:12Z Posterdati: or disable it?
2015-05-20T09:56:26Z jackdaniel: --enable-boehm=included probably
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2015-05-20T09:56:56Z Posterdati: ok thanks
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2015-05-20T09:57:04Z Posterdati: configure: error: Invalid value of --enable-boehm: include
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2015-05-20T09:57:22Z jackdaniel: included, not include
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2015-05-20T09:57:30Z Posterdati: lol yes
2015-05-20T09:57:35Z Posterdati: sorry
2015-05-20T09:57:40Z jackdaniel: type ./configure --help and read, it's not that long ;)
2015-05-20T09:57:55Z Posterdati: yes, but why error on GC_ ?
2015-05-20T09:59:07Z jackdaniel: hm, I think wheezy has some old bdwgc, and some calls were deprecated, and someone contributed update of these calls
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2015-05-20T09:59:18Z jackdaniel: for°
2015-05-20T09:59:21Z Posterdati: goof
2015-05-20T09:59:22Z Posterdati: good
2015-05-20T09:59:47Z jackdaniel: but that's why sources are boundled with ecl - I'm suprised configure didn't pick included version for you automaticly
2015-05-20T09:59:53Z jackdaniel: does it build now?
2015-05-20T10:00:01Z Posterdati: still configuring
2015-05-20T10:00:29Z Posterdati: compiling now
2015-05-20T10:00:31Z jackdaniel: problem might be something else, please fill an issue if that's the case
2015-05-20T10:00:47Z jackdaniel is afk °
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2015-05-20T10:06:18Z abettik_: hi, anyone used cl-gdata here? I'm having trouble with its use of flexistreams and cannot really debug it under sbcl.
2015-05-20T10:09:51Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: it is compiling my friend
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2015-05-20T10:11:45Z loz: does anybody have cl-xmpp example by chance?
2015-05-20T10:13:03Z loz: the one in docs doesn't work for me, and diving into xmpp specs is last thing i want to do now :(
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2015-05-20T10:15:37Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: did you port ecl for mips too?
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2015-05-20T12:55:18Z loz: is there any way to force macro to be expanded at read time?
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2015-05-20T12:59:52Z White_Flame: #.(macro form ...) ?
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2015-05-20T13:00:12Z White_Flame: though it'll be evaluated, not expanded
2015-05-20T13:00:22Z White_Flame: use macroexpand there if you want the literal expansion
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2015-05-20T13:03:00Z loz: White_Flame: how would i do that? i want to be sure macro was expanded before runtime
2015-05-20T13:03:32Z White_Flame: #.(macroexpand ...)
2015-05-20T13:03:42Z H4ns: loz: what are you really trying to do?
2015-05-20T13:03:52Z White_Flame: though read the docs on the expansion options, and test to see that it sits right
2015-05-20T13:04:15Z pjb: loke: "Items:~#[ none~; ~S~; ~S and ~S~:;~@{~#[~; and~] ~S~^ ,~}~]."
2015-05-20T13:04:54Z H4ns: cl:macroexpand is really a debugging and implementor's tool.  if you want to use it in a "normal" program, chances are that you're doing things from to begin with.
2015-05-20T13:05:14Z loz: White_Flame: >The evaluation is done during the read process, when the #. notation is encountered.
2015-05-20T13:05:14Z loz: this is exactly what i need, than you :)
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2015-05-20T13:05:44Z H4ns: things _wrong_, not _from_
2015-05-20T13:06:02Z White_Flame: loz: as H4ns asked, it's important to know what the need is, to know that this is in fact a reasonable solution, and not just a bad workaround
2015-05-20T13:07:14Z loz: White_Flame: H4ns i'm making a macro to get values from config, which fails before runtime if the key is not found
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2015-05-20T13:08:08Z White_Flame: eval-when would seem like a better idea there
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2015-05-20T13:08:47Z H4ns: loz: i think a macro is fine, but why do you need to expand it at read time?
2015-05-20T13:08:56Z H4ns: loz: why does compile time not suffice?
2015-05-20T13:09:01Z flip214: is there something that generates lisp sources from a clang AST representation?
2015-05-20T13:09:26Z loz: H4ns: afaik some implementations can expand macros in runtime
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2015-05-20T13:09:44Z H4ns: loz: all of them can, because all of them can compile at run time.
2015-05-20T13:09:52Z loz: %)
2015-05-20T13:09:57Z White_Flame: everything is "run time" besides bootstrapping
2015-05-20T13:10:09Z H4ns: loz: but then, why do you worry about that?
2015-05-20T13:10:28Z loz: just to be sure all needed configuration options are set
2015-05-20T13:10:58Z H4ns: loz: if you want to worry about code that is assembled and compiled at run time, you're not going to succeed anyway
2015-05-20T13:11:20Z H4ns: loz: because you don't know what code some program generates and feeds to compile.
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2015-05-20T13:12:01Z loz: H4ns: but i'm gonna use #. - it happens at read time..
2015-05-20T13:12:10Z H4ns: loz: why?
2015-05-20T13:13:15Z H4ns: loz: seriously, you're not addressing something that you can address.  check the presence of the configuration option in your macro expansion code.  don't worry about read time.  you're done, you can move on to the next topic. :)
2015-05-20T13:13:34Z pjb: loke: more precisely, in your case; (mapc (lambda (l) (format t "~1{~#[no item~;~S~;~S and ~S~:;~@{~#[~;and ~]~S~^, ~}~]~:} ~:*~1{~#[are~;is~:;are~]~:} online.~%" l)) '(() (n1) (n1 n2) (n1 n2 n3) (n1 n2 n3 n4)))
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2015-05-20T13:14:44Z loz: H4ns: okey, maybe i'm focusing on it too much
2015-05-20T13:14:59Z H4ns: loz: indeed you are :)
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2015-05-20T13:15:03Z pjb: loz: it is possible, but this is most certainly not the case that you want to do that.  At least, you would have to produce a 10 page report in triple copies, to justify committing into one of my projects.
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2015-05-20T13:16:46Z pjb: Read time should be reserved to lexical stuff, and macroexpansion time to metalinguistic stuff.  Write all the rest for run-time, in normal code, otherwise pain will ensure.
2015-05-20T13:16:53Z pjb: s/re./e./
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2015-05-20T14:00:40Z otwieracz: How can I define method which will accept argument of type A or B?
2015-05-20T14:00:47Z otwieracz: Different than copy-paste/
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2015-05-20T14:02:37Z Xach: otwieracz: method selection is based on class, not type
2015-05-20T14:02:48Z otwieracz: Yes, but I have two classes.
2015-05-20T14:02:49Z otwieracz: :)
2015-05-20T14:02:52Z Xach: otwieracz: no.
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2015-05-20T14:03:09Z otwieracz: However, probably I've find better way to do this.,
2015-05-20T14:03:56Z otwieracz: b
2015-05-20T14:03:58Z otwieracz: ooops
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2015-05-20T14:04:31Z pjb: otwieracz: ask again, byt s/type/class/
2015-05-20T14:04:40Z pjb: s/byt/but/
2015-05-20T14:05:21Z pjb: You may define a common superclass.
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2015-05-20T14:06:46Z otwieracz: Yeah, but then I'm running into errors:
2015-05-20T14:06:49Z otwieracz: While computing the class precedence list of the class named PM.WORKER:WORKER.
2015-05-20T14:06:49Z otwieracz: The class named PM.WORKER::API-LISTENER is a forward referenced class.
2015-05-20T14:06:50Z otwieracz: The class named PM.WORKER::API-LISTENER is a direct superclass of the class named PM.WORKER:WORKER. [Condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR]
2015-05-20T14:06:58Z otwieracz: Which, for me, is certainly not a SIMPLE ERROR
2015-05-20T14:07:24Z pjb: You have to define the classes before the methods.
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2015-05-20T14:09:01Z oleo: hello
2015-05-20T14:09:05Z wbooze: hello
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2015-05-20T14:09:35Z otwieracz: pjb: but it's coming out during execution…
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2015-05-20T14:10:52Z otwieracz: ah, ok, got it
2015-05-20T14:12:25Z otwieracz: I am inherigin class package_x:class_y
2015-05-20T14:13:12Z otwieracz: How can I, from the class which is inheriting, init fields of class_y?
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2015-05-20T14:16:23Z otwieracz: Oh, ok. Got it, again. Sorry :)
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2015-05-20T14:22:42Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: did you port ecl on mips too?
2015-05-20T14:23:23Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: it's very probable that ecl works on mips, but it wasn't done by me in that case
2015-05-20T14:23:46Z jackdaniel: afaik most crucial parts are gc, gmp and libffi - ecl code is very portable
2015-05-20T14:23:48Z Posterdati: no is it you
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2015-05-20T14:24:00Z Posterdati: you are responsible for all that
2015-05-20T14:25:18Z jackdaniel: I have different definition of "doing something"
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2015-05-20T14:25:56Z Posterdati: pjb: am I right? :) lol
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2015-05-20T14:26:39Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: lol
2015-05-20T14:27:05Z pjb: Posterdati: you can ask properties of ecl.
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2015-05-20T14:27:25Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: ecl on beaglebone/board is working flawlessy (until now)
2015-05-20T14:27:56Z Posterdati: pjb: does it involve sex with young chicks?
2015-05-20T14:28:11Z pjb:  /ignore Posterdati  is close.
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2015-05-20T15:00:18Z otwieracz: http://paste.lisp.org/display/148482
2015-05-20T15:00:30Z otwieracz: Why clack is not stopping?
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2015-05-20T15:00:47Z otwieracz: (Server still responds and listens)
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2015-05-20T15:01:06Z loz: somehow i get error while accessing object's slot in macro, but its ok when i'm trying same in repl
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2015-05-20T15:01:53Z Xach: loz: that suggests to me you might be using two different symbols
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2015-05-20T15:02:41Z loz: Xach how can i check it?
2015-05-20T15:03:20Z Xach: loz: what error do you get?
2015-05-20T15:04:00Z loz: the inner is
2015-05-20T15:04:01Z loz: unbound condition slot: COMMON-CFG::TEXT
2015-05-20T15:04:01Z loz:    [Condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR]
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2015-05-20T15:04:44Z Xach: What is the name of the slot?
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2015-05-20T15:04:53Z loz: for (text obj), condition is:
2015-05-20T15:04:53Z loz: (define-condition value-not-found (error)  ((text :initarg :text :reader text)))
2015-05-20T15:05:03Z Xach: loz: in that code, what is the home package of TEXT?
2015-05-20T15:05:26Z Xach: oh, sorry. unbound slot is a different issue.
2015-05-20T15:05:55Z Xach: I would have to see more macro code to make any suggestions.
2015-05-20T15:06:00Z loz: #:common-cfg, project is loaded with quicklisp
2015-05-20T15:06:17Z loz: Xach: i can post it, just a sec
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2015-05-20T15:06:56Z loz: Xach: https://gist.github.com/maximvl/91d0c4a3a180a75ce7f5
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2015-05-20T15:14:07Z otwieracz: You don't have any ideas? :(
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2015-05-20T15:15:45Z Xach: otwieracz: I don't think anyone here uses clack
2015-05-20T15:16:49Z mood: I use clack for a simple project of mine, but I never actually stop it. I just quit SBCL
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2015-05-20T15:23:01Z loz: Xach is condition definition correct at least?
2015-05-20T15:24:13Z Xach: loz: yes. but i can't follow why things are done as macros rather than functions, sorry.
2015-05-20T15:24:58Z loz: Xach to throw errors about unknown config keys at compile time :)
2015-05-20T15:25:06Z Xach: loz: That doesn't make any sense to me.
2015-05-20T15:25:23Z Xach: I also have run out of time to think about it, double sorry.
2015-05-20T15:25:42Z loz: i see, no problems, i will investigate later
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2015-05-20T15:28:34Z haxmeister: coming from Racket  and wanting to move to SBCL to take advantage of the broader set of libraries.. is there some suggested reading material that would tutor from the beginning that someone would recomend?
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2015-05-20T15:29:07Z H4ns: haxmeister: 'practical common lisp' is the canonical go-to book for people with prior programming experience
2015-05-20T15:29:36Z haxmeister: is it open license?
2015-05-20T15:29:46Z H4ns: haxmeister: what do you mean by that?
2015-05-20T15:30:06Z H4ns: haxmeister: look for yourself: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2015-05-20T15:30:14Z haxmeister: have to purchase a copy of the book or is it released?
2015-05-20T15:30:16Z haxmeister: oh ok
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2015-05-20T15:31:32Z gr8: which book for learning lisp would you recommend for me getting that "profound enlightening experience" ESR speaks about? I already know some basic Racket if that matters
2015-05-20T15:31:42Z haxmeister: HTDP
2015-05-20T15:31:46Z pjb: No.
2015-05-20T15:31:54Z pjb: gr8: PCL PAIP sicp
2015-05-20T15:32:07Z haxmeister: I hav heard that to
2015-05-20T15:32:11Z oGMo: gr8: one does not achieve enlightenment through reading, only doing
2015-05-20T15:32:18Z pjb: minion: tell gr8 about PCL
2015-05-20T15:32:18Z minion: gr8: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2015-05-20T15:32:21Z pjb: minion: tell gr8 about PAIP
2015-05-20T15:32:21Z minion: gr8: PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming
2015-05-20T15:32:24Z pjb: minion: tell gr8 about sicp
2015-05-20T15:32:24Z minion: gr8: please see sicp: The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available under the CC-BY-NC Licence at <http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/> (HTML), <http://www.neilvandyke.org/sicp-texi/> (Texinfo), and <http://twb.ath.cx/ebooks/sicp.pdf> (PDF). Video lectures are available under the CC-BY-SA licence at <http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/>
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2015-05-20T15:33:05Z haxmeister: minion and H4ns excellent resources thank you both a ton!
2015-05-20T15:33:42Z pjb: gr8: check for more resources on http://cliki.net/
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2015-05-20T15:34:22Z oGMo: gr8: except code .. read a lot of code, too. M-. things and see how they work.
2015-05-20T15:35:05Z gr8: M-. ?
2015-05-20T15:35:44Z gr8: does PAIP require specific knowledge in AI?
2015-05-20T15:35:50Z pjb: A quick way to get a lot of CL code installed: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.tools.quicklisp) (use-package :com.informatimago.tools.quicklisp) (quick-install-all)
2015-05-20T15:36:17Z H4ns: gr8: no, but it requires an interest
2015-05-20T15:36:58Z pjb: (length  (ql-dist:provided-systems t)) --> 3016
2015-05-20T15:37:48Z haxmeister: is eclipse with Cusp a good alternative IDE if I'm not ready to learn Slime yet?
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2015-05-20T15:38:37Z pjb: haxmeister: hard to say.  Very few people use eclipse with Cusp.
2015-05-20T15:38:46Z haxmeister: ok
2015-05-20T15:39:15Z haxmeister: I hashing out if I should install another IDE.. but not ready to dive into one that is hotkey oriented yet
2015-05-20T15:39:17Z oGMo: given the page links are dead, doubtful
2015-05-20T15:39:23Z oGMo: also it's eclipse :p
2015-05-20T15:39:41Z haxmeister: geany does lisp
2015-05-20T15:39:48Z haxmeister: geany does everything
2015-05-20T15:39:49Z haxmeister: lol
2015-05-20T15:40:19Z oGMo: if emacs is too hard for you, you may be in the wrong field :p
2015-05-20T15:40:56Z oGMo: there are menus and extensive help
2015-05-20T15:40:58Z antoszka: gr8: in Peter Norvig's own words PAIP has become mostly outdated as an AI course, but remains a very good Common Lisp course (with a really beautiful style IMO)
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2015-05-20T15:41:14Z pjb: And emacs is more fun anyways since you can enhance it writing lisp code, while you'd need to write java code to enhance eclipse or Cusp.
2015-05-20T15:41:56Z haxmeister: oGMo: not to hard.. just didn't want to learn an IDE so much right now.. I been intending to eventually learn emacs and slime because I trust the recommendations of countless other programmers.
2015-05-20T15:42:21Z haxmeister: maybe I should jump in it then
2015-05-20T15:42:50Z haxmeister: jus say screw it.. I have a head start from Racket anyway... shouldn't be to bad learning emacs at the same time right?
2015-05-20T15:43:52Z oGMo: haxmeister: just jump in, read the tutorial bit, and use help/google and you should be fine
2015-05-20T15:44:11Z haxmeister: damnit I think I'm gonna do it
2015-05-20T15:44:14Z Shinmera: I switched from NetBeans&Java to Emacs&CL at the same time. Wasn't a problem, really and haven't regretted either switch
2015-05-20T15:44:25Z haxmeister: it will be a tremendously fun challenge and experience
2015-05-20T15:44:57Z haxmeister: any gentoo users here?
2015-05-20T15:45:17Z oGMo: it's slightly arcane in some ways, but for CL it's worth it... for other things, maybe not
2015-05-20T15:45:31Z oGMo: haxmeister: yes though a bit off-topic
2015-05-20T15:45:43Z oGMo: haxmeister: don't install CL via gentoo's stuff if that's even still around
2015-05-20T15:46:05Z haxmeister: well I'm on Funtoo.. so I have a significant amount of package support from my distro devs
2015-05-20T15:46:25Z haxmeister: but wanted to make sure I got the lisp distro I intended.. because I want to do SBCL
2015-05-20T15:46:49Z haxmeister: I found it though.. I got the right one coming down right now w00t!
2015-05-20T15:47:23Z haxmeister: dev-lisp/sbcl-1.2.11
2015-05-20T15:47:44Z haxmeister: app-emacs/slime-2.12
2015-05-20T15:47:56Z haxmeister: :-D
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2015-05-20T16:45:23Z kami`: Good evening.
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2015-05-20T17:08:43Z Petit_Dejeuner: Is half of #lispcafe bots or am I finally losing it?
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2015-05-20T17:13:37Z Oladon: Does this have to be an either/or situation?
2015-05-20T17:14:17Z Shinmera: Should I send Colleen over as well?
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2015-05-20T17:36:52Z otwieracz: Anyone using context in ningle?
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2015-05-20T18:18:32Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner: you're losing it.
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2015-05-20T18:47:48Z loz1: how do i update quicklisp's systems list?
2015-05-20T18:47:53Z loz1: or should i?
2015-05-20T18:48:31Z mood: loz1: You can use (ql:update-all-dists)
2015-05-20T18:49:07Z loz1: mood: it will update installed systems, isn't it?
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2015-05-20T18:49:32Z mood: Yes, it will, if they were updated in a more recent QL dist release
2015-05-20T18:49:59Z loz1: i see, thanks)
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2015-05-20T18:59:14Z Petit_Dejeuner: pjb, Maybe it's just my terrible connection.
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2015-05-20T19:20:25Z ebrasca: hi
2015-05-20T19:21:17Z oleo_:  ellooouuuuuuhhhh
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2015-05-20T19:25:02Z ebrasca: my repl say http://pastebin.com/KZqnmqFp
2015-05-20T19:25:31Z ebrasca: this is sbcl bug?
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2015-05-20T19:25:57Z oleo_: no wonder, it's sdl2.....
2015-05-20T19:26:13Z oGMo: ebrasca: did you segfault etc your sbcl at any point?
2015-05-20T19:26:14Z oleo_: sdl2 is not stable yet or not complete it seems
2015-05-20T19:26:33Z oGMo: it's pretty stable last i checked :P
2015-05-20T19:26:39Z oleo_: hmmm
2015-05-20T19:26:49Z oGMo: SBCL had some GC issues at some point but i forget if i could reproduce them recently
2015-05-20T19:27:24Z oleo_: oO
2015-05-20T19:27:38Z oGMo: my guess is image corruption is more likely here especially if GL is involved
2015-05-20T19:27:50Z oleo_: like dangling pointers ?
2015-05-20T19:27:54Z oGMo: no
2015-05-20T19:28:30Z oGMo: it was pretty easy to reproduce a segfault in sbcl by doing literally no more than SDL_Init() and SDL_Quit()
2015-05-20T19:28:51Z oGMo: the code for those is pretty easy to read and pretty innocuous
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2015-05-20T19:29:29Z oGMo: CCL and other CL's had no issues; arguably something could be invisibly corrupting things elsewhere, but i encountered nothing after lots and lots of use
2015-05-20T19:30:32Z oGMo: otoh i stopped doing lots of init/quit after sdl2kit, so it became less of an issue anyway
2015-05-20T19:30:35Z oleo_: hmm, maybe threading issue then....
2015-05-20T19:30:57Z oGMo: it's possible, but SDL itself doesn't create threads implicitly iirc
2015-05-20T19:31:33Z oleo_: ja, but the object system does....afaik
2015-05-20T19:31:43Z oGMo: ?
2015-05-20T19:31:46Z oleo_: and i suppose sdl uses it....
2015-05-20T19:32:07Z oleo_: clos... the underlying system...
2015-05-20T19:32:57Z oleo_: the fault maybe even on the X side.....
2015-05-20T19:33:04Z oGMo: no, cl-sdl2 itself creates a thread so all operations can run on it, but as i recall it happened either way
2015-05-20T19:33:28Z oleo_: anyway sounds pretty brittle still....
2015-05-20T19:33:30Z oGMo: cl-sdl2 doesn't use much clos i don't think
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2015-05-20T19:34:25Z oleo_: tracking stuff is difficult anyway....
2015-05-20T19:34:29Z oGMo: i guess that depends on your definition.. you have to make sure some stuff happens in a particular thread, but that applies to just about everything
2015-05-20T19:34:58Z oGMo: o.O
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2015-05-20T19:36:39Z oleo_: afaik some signals on some platforms are buggy sbcl wise....
2015-05-20T19:36:52Z oleo_: maybe it changed in the meantime....
2015-05-20T19:37:22Z oleo_: not sure if x86_64 was affected ....
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2015-05-20T19:38:28Z oleo_: and there's reports for sbcl that many library writers don't do it right.....
2015-05-20T19:38:39Z oleo_: i mean threading....
2015-05-20T19:39:05Z oleo_: even with a proposal to correct that, in the sbcl internals manual as far as i recall....
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2015-05-20T19:40:18Z oleo_: i haven't done much with threading yet, even in C i just tested some linux code from the linux programmers book....
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2015-05-20T19:44:57Z ebrasca: post it in sbcl?
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2015-05-20T19:47:41Z oleo_: not to mention that threading itself is considered even mathly unsound (from some ieee paper)
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2015-05-20T19:50:59Z oleo_: maybe there's just a stable core around wich you can keep program behaviour stable....
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2015-05-20T19:53:20Z Xach: oleo_: if you don't have any real info, please don't discuss it.
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2015-05-20T20:02:25Z Ralt: hello
2015-05-20T20:02:28Z Ralt: is there a way to know if a method is callable on an object?
2015-05-20T20:02:34Z Ralt: if I have the method's symbol
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2015-05-20T20:04:47Z Shinmera: You can't have a method's symbol.
2015-05-20T20:04:53Z Shinmera: You can only have a generic function's symbol.
2015-05-20T20:05:15Z Shinmera: And do you want to know whether an applicable method exists at all for a given generic function and set of argument/s?
2015-05-20T20:05:22Z Shinmera: Or what is it that you want to find out exactly?
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2015-05-20T20:07:04Z jackdaniel: hm, is #lisp a general channel on lisp, or rather particulary cl?
2015-05-20T20:07:12Z Shinmera: Check the topic.
2015-05-20T20:07:20Z jackdaniel: i did
2015-05-20T20:07:23Z jackdaniel: still curious
2015-05-20T20:07:25Z Shinmera: Then you'll know the answer.
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2015-05-20T20:07:42Z jackdaniel: \o/
2015-05-20T20:07:43Z Shinmera: ##lisp is for general lisps.
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2015-05-20T20:08:25Z ehu starts #common-lisp
2015-05-20T20:09:35Z Xach: jackdaniel: it's for common lisp
2015-05-20T20:09:38Z jackdaniel: I've asked it on lispcafe, but no definitive answer there - why #lisp isn't about whole lisp family? name would indicate that. ##lisp sounds more like fan-channel (according to freenodes rules)
2015-05-20T20:09:52Z Shinmera: Because history.
2015-05-20T20:10:03Z Ralt: Shinmera: on one side, I have a symbol 'foo. On another side, I have (defmethod foo ((object bar))). I want to know if I can call "foo" if I have a "bar" object. The defmethod is not always there
2015-05-20T20:10:05Z jackdaniel: #common-lisp would sound more reasonably
2015-05-20T20:10:23Z Shinmera: Ralt: What do you mean "the defmethod is not always there"?
2015-05-20T20:10:30Z oleo_: methods are attached to gfs
2015-05-20T20:11:07Z Ralt: Shinmera: it's a base class I provide, where no such method is provided. If the method exists (i.e. is implemented by someone using my library), I'll call it
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2015-05-20T20:11:49Z ehu: jackdaniel: now it exists :-)
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2015-05-20T20:12:21Z jackdaniel: sounds good :)
2015-05-20T20:13:06Z oleo_: so then your method is specialized on object class bar objects
2015-05-20T20:13:29Z Shinmera: Ralt: Just provide a base method specialised on T that doesn't do anything and always call it.
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2015-05-20T20:13:50Z Ralt: Shinmera: I don't know the method. It's a dynamic symbol
2015-05-20T20:16:48Z Ralt: I'll expand on what I want to do, I guess
2015-05-20T20:16:59Z Ralt: hmmm
2015-05-20T20:17:15Z Ralt: I don't need that, actually
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2015-05-20T20:19:01Z kami`: when using named registers in cl-ppcre, can I use them by name in regex-replace?
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2015-05-20T21:00:53Z pjb: Ralt: there's a find-method operator.
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2015-05-20T21:02:18Z pjb: Ralt: notice that in a method, you can use next-method-p.
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2015-05-20T21:08:06Z Ralt: pjb: thanks!
2015-05-20T21:08:46Z Shinmera: There's also COMPUTE-APPLICABLE-METHODS
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2015-05-20T21:21:30Z Adlai: clhs find-method
2015-05-20T21:21:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_m.htm
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2015-05-20T22:28:55Z dkcl: <dkcl> "#lisp-es es un canal por los usuarios Lisp hispano-hablantes. (Si no nadie para responder en #lisp-es, puedes llamar a algun hispano-hablante en #lisp)."  [00:24]
2015-05-20T22:28:55Z dkcl: <dkcl> Anyone I should PM a correction to?
2015-05-20T22:28:55Z dkcl: <dkcl> Well, I don't really care, so I'll just leave it here -- "#lisp-es es un canal para usuarios de Lisp hispanohablantes (si nadie responde en #lisp-es, puedes llamar a un hispanohablante en #lisp)"  [00:25]
2015-05-20T22:28:58Z dkcl: <dkcl> "llamar a un" could remain "llamar a algun", but the rest is rather incorrect  [00:26]
2015-05-20T22:29:12Z dkcl: I said that in #lispcafe but perhaps it should be here
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2015-05-20T22:31:10Z dkcl: Uh, that is regarding http://cliki.net/IRC
2015-05-20T22:31:14Z dkcl: Sorry, I'm slightly sleep-deprived
2015-05-20T22:32:09Z Shinmera: Just edit the page? There's a button at the bottom.
2015-05-20T22:33:22Z Shinmera is off to sleep himself
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2015-05-20T22:38:22Z dkcl: I'm really not going to bother, but anyone is free to do so
2015-05-20T22:39:45Z dkcl: The current text is comically incorrect
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2015-05-20T22:55:59Z jlarocco_work: @dkcl: I just updated to a copy/paste of the text you psoted
2015-05-20T22:56:06Z jlarocco_work: posted
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2015-05-20T22:57:38Z dkcl: jlarocco_work: Sounds good, thanks
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2015-05-21T00:42:58Z loke: Hello and good morning
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2015-05-21T00:45:17Z jaimef: morning beach
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2015-05-21T00:47:20Z loke: Is beach here?
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2015-05-21T00:49:46Z pillton: G'day loke.
2015-05-21T00:49:54Z loke: Hello pillton
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2015-05-21T01:10:52Z theos: hey
2015-05-21T01:11:02Z loke: what's going on?
2015-05-21T01:11:33Z theos: just woke up *yawns*
2015-05-21T01:11:59Z loke: theos: Oh yeah, youre in asia too
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2015-05-21T01:12:07Z loke: chiang mai was it?
2015-05-21T01:12:22Z theos: India
2015-05-21T01:12:29Z loke: Ah
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2015-05-21T01:12:40Z loke: Then you're getting up really early.
2015-05-21T01:13:19Z theos: 6am everyday :)
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2015-05-21T01:14:00Z loke: theos: You got a long commute to work?
2015-05-21T01:14:42Z Xach: time for a local conference
2015-05-21T01:14:53Z loke: Xach: Hello
2015-05-21T01:14:58Z loke: what conference is that
2015-05-21T01:15:33Z theos: loke i work from home :D i just like to wake up with the sun. more time for lisp and stuff
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2015-05-21T01:17:41Z Xach: loke: i don't know. i guess there was an ilc in asia not long ago.
2015-05-21T01:18:02Z loke: Xach: was there? If so, I'm sad I missed it
2015-05-21T01:18:43Z theos: any conference in india? :<
2015-05-21T01:18:56Z loke: Should be Singapore.
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2015-05-21T01:21:11Z theos: India has like 1.4billion people and almost nobody knows about CL :/ what a shame. i wish we had local CL meets
2015-05-21T01:21:47Z loke: theos: which city are you in?
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2015-05-21T01:22:28Z Xach: loke: japan a few years ago
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2015-05-21T01:22:40Z Xach worked with a CL team based in nepal for a while
2015-05-21T01:22:45Z loke: In japan, everything tends to be in japanese :-(
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2015-05-21T01:23:05Z theos: loke i live in different cities in different seasons. mainly new delhi, bangalore, noida
2015-05-21T01:23:21Z loke: I see. I only spent time in Mumbai
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2015-05-21T01:28:56Z pillton: Anyone know of some writing which explores the differences between (in-package "ASDF") and (in-package #:asdf) ?
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2015-05-21T01:29:24Z Bike: not a whole lot to explore, just readtable-case
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2015-05-21T01:29:38Z Xach: pillton: i don't know of any discussion, except to the extent that the symbol is used only for its name
2015-05-21T01:33:00Z pillton: Bike: Well if you are a library writer and your user messes with readtable-case then the string version is likely to be annoying.
2015-05-21T01:33:16Z pillton: Especially if you use strings in your export list.
2015-05-21T01:33:55Z pillton: Someone asked me this week and I didn't have a good answer.
2015-05-21T01:34:38Z pillton: I am guessing that uninterned symbols for everything makes the most sense.
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2015-05-21T01:42:02Z Xach: some people like keywords, or interned symbols.
2015-05-21T01:44:44Z pillton: Yes. I know. I just prefer uninterned symbols as they are non destructive on packages.
2015-05-21T01:46:15Z Zhivago: They also avoid the case issue.
2015-05-21T01:47:42Z pillton: Yes, that was my thinking as well.
2015-05-21T01:49:00Z Zhivago: The only downside is that they're kind of fuggly.
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2015-05-21T02:01:49Z loke: Zhivago: Buold a reader macro for it?
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2015-05-21T02:02:54Z Zhivago: Hard to imagine that being less ugly. :)
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2015-05-21T03:17:23Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-05-21T03:17:51Z pillton: G'day beach!
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2015-05-21T03:22:17Z loke: Zhivago: It can be less ugly. How about parsing ⓕⓞⓞ as #.(symbol-name #:foo) ?
2015-05-21T03:22:44Z loke: (for appropriate values of "less", of course)
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2015-05-21T03:23:41Z Zhivago: That appears as gibberish here, unfortunately.
2015-05-21T03:23:50Z loke: Zhivago: broken fonts?
2015-05-21T03:24:04Z Zhivago: Probably broken decoding.
2015-05-21T03:24:11Z loke: Bad encoding? (although I thought encoding issues in irc was solved these days)
2015-05-21T03:24:40Z pillton: No. You still can't send a new line. :)
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2015-05-21T03:32:55Z kristof: Thank god you can't
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2015-05-21T03:36:11Z Bike: circled latin small letter foo, huh. it is not in my font
2015-05-21T03:37:54Z pinterface1 idly wonders if the newline restriction is limited to U+0A or if it includes U+2028.
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2015-05-21T03:39:05Z theos: does ⓕⓞⓞ still break people's screens?
2015-05-21T03:40:09Z Zhivago: It just makes you look stupid.
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2015-05-21T03:49:57Z loke: Bike: You don't have the circled letters in your fonts?
2015-05-21T03:50:05Z loke: Bike: You ahev to fix that
2015-05-21T03:50:28Z Bike: well, not in my terminal font.
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2015-05-21T03:54:27Z egrep: My screen seems to be many, glued together chunks. Not broken, as far as screens go these days.
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2015-05-21T04:58:15Z kami: good morning
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2015-05-21T05:02:09Z oleo_: morning
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2015-05-21T05:03:34Z beach: Hello kami.
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2015-05-21T05:24:14Z ARYAN1488: anyone else believes in preserving the sanctity and beauty of perfection?
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2015-05-21T05:27:00Z Zhivago: Please die in a fire.
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2015-05-21T05:27:18Z ARYAN1488: Zhivago: why are you so mean?
2015-05-21T05:27:50Z ARYAN1488: lisp is a pure language
2015-05-21T05:27:54Z ARYAN1488: and we must keep it that way
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2015-05-21T05:30:27Z spacebat`: haskell is much more pure
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2015-05-21T05:51:50Z emaczen: How can I programatically create a keyword?
2015-05-21T05:52:00Z H4ns: (intern "FOO" :keyword)
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2015-05-21T05:55:18Z ARYAN1488 [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has been kicked from #lisp by p_l (Well, CL is quite impure, and don't try to claim combining that nick and those lines wasn't trolling…)
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2015-05-21T06:00:45Z spacebat`: nice kick p_l
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2015-05-21T06:04:17Z White_Flame: it's funny, since Common Lisp is explicitly multi-parent mixed-breed offspring of the Lisps that came before it ;)
2015-05-21T06:05:52Z Lycurgus: the whole use of language with terms like "clean", "pure", usw would be slightly distressing if you couldn't be big/sophisticated about lang use
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2015-05-21T06:08:51Z Lycurgus: CL is definitely the received lisp, purity is off semantically somehow, but something like how white light is all the colors combined and therefore pure white light is the case. Would be moreso if it could somehow subsume scheme too.
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2015-05-21T06:19:53Z beach: Terminology such as "pure", "clean", "hygienic", "strong", "dynamic" and their opposites can be thought of as "politically" motivated.
2015-05-21T06:20:32Z jackdaniel: that sounds more like a talk for lispcafe ;-)
2015-05-21T06:20:45Z beach: Good point.  I'll drop it now.
2015-05-21T06:21:25Z jackdaniel had a hope to bring more ppl there, since he's constraints himself not to talk about *stuff* here, but most of guys here aren't /there/
2015-05-21T06:21:28Z jackdaniel: ;]
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2015-05-21T06:23:12Z Shinmera: I'm not there exactly because I appreciate not having my IRC client light up about chatter constantly.
2015-05-21T06:23:22Z Shinmera: In lisp news, ABCD is making progress. https://twitter.com/Shinmera/status/600936534045564928
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2015-05-21T08:23:38Z spacebat`: Shinmera: I guess that could have an interesting intersection with drmeister's clasp
2015-05-21T08:24:58Z Shinmera: Clasp is the primary reason I'm working on this to begin with.
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2015-05-21T08:25:52Z spacebat`: there was a blog post some time back demonstrating building ECL with C++, I wasn't aware that was supported
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2015-05-21T08:26:12Z Shinmera: Clasp's build process is a mess and I'd like to move as much as possible in Clasp to CL. The build system is one of the things that don't require me to actually have C++ programming experience, so it's something I can tackle.
2015-05-21T08:27:04Z spacebat`: I love your work BTW
2015-05-21T08:27:11Z Shinmera: Ah, why thank you.
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2015-05-21T08:27:29Z spacebat`: is there a way to make a symbol aliased like in emacs lisp
2015-05-21T08:28:10Z spacebat`: I have a symbol that I'd like to move, but actually it would be a pain to go change all the places referring to it in its current package
2015-05-21T08:28:52Z Shinmera: What does it mean to "move" a symbol?
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2015-05-21T08:29:03Z spacebat`: change where it is declared
2015-05-21T08:29:13Z spacebat`: along with its 'home package'
2015-05-21T08:29:33Z spacebat`: I just tried an import experiment, of A::X into package B, but then package C can't refer to it as B::X
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2015-05-21T08:30:08Z spacebat`: in elisp you can alias one symbol to another, but that's without packages of course
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2015-05-21T08:30:41Z spacebat`: I guess I'll have to refactor - which means a separate commit, but commits are cheap
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2015-05-21T08:32:26Z spacebat`: must commute now, cheers
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2015-05-21T08:32:41Z Shinmera: ? If you IMPORT a::foo into :b you can access b::foo no problem
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2015-05-21T09:49:54Z elderK: Hey peeps.
2015-05-21T09:50:03Z elderK: I was wondering what approach you take when doing binary IO?
2015-05-21T09:50:20Z elderK: I've been taking a look at Practical Common Lisp and the method he seems to like is defining macros, like, define-binary-class.
2015-05-21T09:50:25Z elderK: Which is neat and all.
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2015-05-21T09:50:40Z elderK: But I'm curious as to how you guys would go about something like loading a TGA file or something :)
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2015-05-21T09:54:37Z jackdaniel: elderK: there is package binary-formats
2015-05-21T09:54:42Z jackdaniel: or something°
2015-05-21T09:54:53Z jackdaniel: it's nice for parsing binary data
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2015-05-21T09:55:14Z elderK: cliki?
2015-05-21T09:55:18Z jackdaniel: other approach would be using cffi
2015-05-21T09:55:37Z elderK: It'd be nice if we could do it entirely via Lisp.
2015-05-21T09:55:45Z elderK: I liked the idea of how PCL does it.
2015-05-21T09:55:49Z elderK: (define-binary-class ....)
2015-05-21T09:56:01Z elderK: but I was just thinking you'd need to extend it to allow for slots to be other 'binary classes'
2015-05-21T09:56:30Z jackdaniel: let me cliki that for you; http://cliki.net/Binary-types
2015-05-21T09:58:04Z elderK: THanks jack.
2015-05-21T09:58:43Z jackdaniel: yw :)
2015-05-21T09:58:51Z elderK: HOw so?
2015-05-21T09:58:56Z elderK: :)
2015-05-21T09:59:03Z elderK: Like...
2015-05-21T09:59:14Z elderK: HHHHmmm.
2015-05-21T10:01:03Z jackdaniel: I don't quite get it. By yw I meant "You're welcome."
2015-05-21T10:01:55Z elderK: Sorry - I accidentally cross posted between channels.
2015-05-21T10:02:11Z elderK: Man, I have so many questions!
2015-05-21T10:02:13Z elderK: Like take parsers.
2015-05-21T10:02:27Z elderK: I'm from the C world so I'm used to creating state transition tables as giant arrays.
2015-05-21T10:02:37Z elderK: I guess here you'd use a cond or a hash table.
2015-05-21T10:02:38Z elderK: ?
2015-05-21T10:03:19Z jackdaniel: idk, I believe it depends on personal taste and capabilities
2015-05-21T10:03:29Z elderK: Capabilities?
2015-05-21T10:03:53Z jackdaniel: hm, experience to use more accurate word
2015-05-21T10:04:31Z elderK: :)
2015-05-21T10:05:14Z elderK: What's the deal with tail call optimization in CL?
2015-05-21T10:05:17Z elderK: Any chance SBCL has that?
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2015-05-21T10:06:29Z jackdaniel: it has afaik
2015-05-21T10:06:45Z jackdaniel: but I'm not 100% sure
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2015-05-21T10:06:52Z elderK: Sorry about that!
2015-05-21T10:07:02Z jackdaniel: why sorry?
2015-05-21T10:07:21Z loke: elderK: It does
2015-05-21T10:07:22Z elderK: Disconnected :) Not sure if I missed something or not.
2015-05-21T10:07:28Z elderK: loke: Awesome.
2015-05-21T10:07:29Z jackdaniel: not being sure about certain things is a good thing. People who are sure about everything are plain ignorant and/or arrogant
2015-05-21T10:07:32Z loke: elderK: If optimisation level is appropriate
2015-05-21T10:07:39Z elderK: That means instead of using a giant state table, I could just have a bunch of functions.
2015-05-21T10:07:42Z loke: elderK: You should never rely on it though.
2015-05-21T10:07:56Z elderK: And each function would be a state, the transitions going out would just be other functions.
2015-05-21T10:07:57Z jackdaniel: it's not imposed by a language spec
2015-05-21T10:08:01Z elderK: Nuts.
2015-05-21T10:08:03Z jackdaniel: sbcl isn't only cl implementation
2015-05-21T10:08:23Z elderK: Aye.
2015-05-21T10:08:50Z jackdaniel: I mean - what's the point to insist on "pure" lisp you claimed earlier, if you write non-portable code ;p
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2015-05-21T10:09:55Z elderK: That's very true.
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2015-05-21T10:10:08Z elderK: I really want to start using Lisp as my primary language.
2015-05-21T10:10:16Z elderK: But at the same time, I'm so afraid of making constant mistakes and writing bad lisp.
2015-05-21T10:10:19Z elderK: Which is funny, you know.
2015-05-21T10:10:28Z elderK: I swear to God, the older I get, the more afraid I am of making mistakes.
2015-05-21T10:10:33Z elderK: WHich is not the way to be.
2015-05-21T10:10:36Z elderK: Mistakes, good. LEarning, good.
2015-05-21T10:11:00Z elderK: It's just time is so precious, I guess, that I'm afraid of spending it making mistakes.
2015-05-21T10:11:02Z jackdaniel: my personal and very arguable opinion is that you learn good practices by making mistakes and paying for them ;)
2015-05-21T10:11:03Z elderK: Ah well.
2015-05-21T10:11:06Z elderK: :)
2015-05-21T10:11:39Z jackdaniel: at least you start to understand good practices instead of dumbfully following guidelines
2015-05-21T10:12:00Z elderK: jackdaniel: Very true.
2015-05-21T10:12:14Z elderK: And it's better to spend some time making mistakes and learning, than staying away and never learning anything at all.
2015-05-21T10:12:17Z elderK: :)
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2015-05-21T10:12:51Z jackdaniel: I think we share similar point of view (-: neverless, I'm afk now o/
2015-05-21T10:12:55Z elderK updates his chicken package for Crux
2015-05-21T10:13:04Z elderK: Seeya jackdaniel !
2015-05-21T10:13:06Z elderK: Thanks for your help :)
2015-05-21T10:13:20Z jackdaniel: :)
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2015-05-21T10:57:03Z jackdaniel: hm, is there something like (with-macro-character ((stream char) &body body) ...) ?
2015-05-21T10:59:51Z Xach: jackdaniel: what would that do?
2015-05-21T11:01:42Z jackdaniel: pardon, (with-macro-character (function (stream char) &body body) ...)
2015-05-21T11:02:47Z jackdaniel: or something similar (haven't put much tought on exact lambda list) - locall will use macro-character associated with given function
2015-05-21T11:03:10Z jackdaniel: and after block of body will revert previous behaviour
2015-05-21T11:03:27Z jackdaniel: s/locall/locally/
2015-05-21T11:03:45Z Xach: jackdaniel: it will read from the stream with that macro character temporarily in the readtable?
2015-05-21T11:03:54Z Xach: jackdaniel: or read ... that way?
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2015-05-21T11:04:57Z jackdaniel: both are interesting, but latter - will read body that way (thereof probably now stream parameter is necessary)
2015-05-21T11:05:03Z jackdaniel: s/now/no/
2015-05-21T11:07:12Z Xach: jackdaniel: it's impossible. the entire form must be read before evaluating it.
2015-05-21T11:07:29Z Xach: jackdaniel: you have to introduce a new thing, like a macro character, to intercept reading.
2015-05-21T11:07:53Z jackdaniel: ok, I see that now
2015-05-21T11:07:56Z Xach: I think let over lambda does something like ~(foo bar [new syntax]) to make it happen.
2015-05-21T11:08:01Z jackdaniel: and first option? reading from string?
2015-05-21T11:08:07Z jackdaniel: from stream°
2015-05-21T11:08:33Z Xach: jackdaniel: sure, that would be easy to do, just copy and bind *readtable*
2015-05-21T11:09:13Z jackdaniel: ok, thanks
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2015-05-21T11:57:12Z pjb: jackdaniel: of course, it is perfectly possible: just write a reader macro on #\( to detect when you read (with-reader-macro (ch (stream) . body1) . body2).
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2015-05-21T12:30:42Z fathan: Hello :)
2015-05-21T12:30:48Z theos: hi
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2015-05-21T12:36:01Z kami: Hi eudoxia
2015-05-21T12:36:06Z eudoxia: hi kami
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2015-05-21T12:36:37Z kami: I contacted Alexey or Oleksii, the original author of cl-libssh2
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2015-05-21T12:36:50Z kami: He responded very quickly.
2015-05-21T12:37:28Z kami: He doesn't have much time but welcomes cooperation and has moved the repo to github.
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2015-05-21T12:38:06Z kami: Would you mind if I ported your changes into his repo?
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2015-05-21T12:38:40Z eudoxia: cool, go ahead
2015-05-21T12:38:58Z eudoxia: then we can excise libssh2 from trivial-ssh
2015-05-21T12:39:51Z kami: eudoxia: I thought we keep your api in cl-libssh2.
2015-05-21T12:40:03Z kami: Do you plan to support other ssh client libraries?
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2015-05-21T12:44:58Z loz: about my yesterday's problem - adding an :initial-form to my error class somehow solved the problem)
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2015-05-21T12:45:48Z eudoxia: kami: no, i just vendored my working copy of libssh2 into the library because it worked. it we can move it to its own library, that's better. i don't plan on supporting multiple libraries, it's just about separation of concerns.
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2015-05-21T12:47:14Z eudoxia: multiple ssh client libraries*
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2015-05-21T12:50:46Z kami: eudoxia: I think your download-file, upload-file etc. functions would perfectly fit into cl-libssh2.
2015-05-21T12:51:24Z kami: but of course, it's your lib :)
2015-05-21T12:51:35Z eudoxia: kami: i think they should remain separate. as in, cl-libssh2 is the "bare" CFFI interface, and trivial-ssh as the higher-level (as the name implies) interface
2015-05-21T12:51:53Z eudoxia adds a note to fix the naming convention of trivial-ssh class names
2015-05-21T12:52:48Z kami: I see. I will send you an email when I have applied your cleanup changes.
2015-05-21T12:52:57Z eudoxia: ok
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2015-05-21T13:24:36Z kami: capitaomorte`: I'm trying to understand snooze. Can you point me to an application which uses it?
2015-05-21T13:24:47Z luis: Is there a portable way to register the stream positions of forms during pretty printing? I tried to do that with set-pprint-dispatch but it doesn't work because the output is buffered. http://paste.lisp.org/display/148516
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2015-05-21T13:31:40Z Xach: luis: what did you expect to see instead of what you got?
2015-05-21T13:31:44Z Xach: or hope to see?
2015-05-21T13:31:55Z Xach does not understand the attempt or the output, sorry
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2015-05-21T13:33:45Z luis: Xach: I hoped to see ((UNLESS T (FOO) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 (FOO) 11 12 13 14 15 16) or something like that
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2015-05-21T13:35:20Z luis: The stream collects the character positions as they are written, the pprint-dispatch collects cons as they are printed. I hoped that the two things would be interleaved
2015-05-21T13:35:59Z luis: Instead what I see is that the conses are pretty printed to some buffer first, and only afterwards is the whole thing written to the stream.
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2015-05-21T13:44:23Z luis: My current solution is to read back the pretty-printed output, and do a similar tracking stream hack on the readtable. But it's not a great solution.
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2015-05-21T13:58:36Z luis: Xach: does that it make more sense now?
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2015-05-21T14:01:27Z Xach: yes, thanks
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2015-05-21T15:04:53Z failproofshark: hello
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2015-05-21T15:27:57Z elderK: Jeez.
2015-05-21T15:28:05Z elderK: Took me awhile but CFFI's constantenum and cenum things are a little bit... not obvious :)
2015-05-21T15:28:08Z elderK: Once you use them
2015-05-21T15:28:16Z elderK: you have to use cffi:foreign-enum-value to actually get an enumerants value
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2015-05-21T15:28:41Z elderK: It's a shame that you can't tell CFFI how you'd like the resulting constants named, if define-constants is set to non-nil.
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2015-05-21T15:44:49Z theos: are there ways to start a CL program other than a CL implementation?
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2015-05-21T15:45:50Z failproofshark: theos: there's shelly
2015-05-21T15:46:02Z White_Flame: theos: most CLs allow saving the current state of the lisp environment to an executable file, along with which function to execute on startup
2015-05-21T15:46:06Z failproofshark: and a few others i cant remember unfortunately
2015-05-21T15:46:28Z White_Flame: but really, what do you mean by "program"?  If by source code, then of course you need an environment.  If you mean a binary executable, well, run it!
2015-05-21T15:47:49Z theos: i see thanks
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2015-05-21T15:49:07Z White_Flame: best practice would be to have a script/function that programmatically loads everything up from scratch and outputs the executable.  I'm sure there's packages out there to do so, but we've ritten our own long ago
2015-05-21T15:49:21Z White_Flame: ...written
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2015-05-21T15:50:14Z H4ns: that program is called "buildapp"
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2015-05-21T15:52:19Z White_Flame: in what we built, the exact same loader/init configs the interactive slime environment and the binary output, which is nice for consistency
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2015-05-21T15:54:27Z theos: sbcl has buildapp but it appears to be very basic
2015-05-21T15:55:55Z H4ns: theos: what is missing?
2015-05-21T15:56:35Z theos: H4ns you cant input a file. just type each line one by one with --eval
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2015-05-21T15:57:09Z White_Flame: --load, --load-system
2015-05-21T15:58:24Z Xach: theos: --load loads a file
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2015-05-21T15:59:46Z theos: Xach oh. i somehow miss the --load example. now i see it. thanks. good work once again!
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2015-05-21T16:04:01Z gko: Is there an equivalent to clisp's CUSTOM:*LOAD-PATHS* in SBCL?
2015-05-21T16:04:20Z akkad: sb-posix:chdir?
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2015-05-21T16:05:07Z Xach: gko: no
2015-05-21T16:06:04Z gko: So, my best option is to play with *default-pathname-defaults*?
2015-05-21T16:06:23Z Xach: gko: that is normally not necessary. what are you doing that makes you feel like you want to do that?
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2015-05-21T16:07:06Z gko: I want to load without having to put directory in names...
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2015-05-21T16:08:23Z White_Flame: ASDF is intended when you get to that basic level of complexity
2015-05-21T16:08:33Z Xach: gko: I usually use C-c C-l for that. But when I don't have it in a buffer, I usually use asdf or quicklisp loading commands and and load the system it's in.
2015-05-21T16:08:40Z White_Flame: define your system to load, where its dirs & files are, then asdf load it
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2015-05-21T16:09:20Z White_Flame: or yeah, ~/quicklisp/local-projects/
2015-05-21T16:09:25Z jdz: gko: also, if you're using slime, there's the ,cd command
2015-05-21T16:09:36Z White_Flame: drop an .asd file in there describing what files to load, and you're golden
2015-05-21T16:10:20Z White_Flame: (technically, ~/quicklisp/local-projects/*/*.asd, to be precise)
2015-05-21T16:10:57Z gko: I know about asdf, quicklisp, etc., it was just a general question to see if I could avoid these in some cases.
2015-05-21T16:11:42Z White_Flame: beyond that, why not a little script with (load "../dir/whatever.lisp") clauses?
2015-05-21T16:11:55Z oGMo: avoiding them seems like a terrible idea
2015-05-21T16:12:29Z White_Flame: I put little project environment loaders/launchers in my .sbclrc
2015-05-21T16:12:35Z gko: In these cases, it's for command line commands, not SLIME sessions.
2015-05-21T16:13:18Z gko: Of course, for stuff that would require external libraries available in ASDF, no problem...
2015-05-21T16:13:22Z oGMo: gko: even worse, since from the commandline a the simpler you can "load this and everything it depends on" the better
2015-05-21T16:14:04Z oGMo: if you want to load a single file, you can just --load $path/file.lisp or similar?
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2015-05-21T16:17:16Z gko: Yeah, scripts loaded with --load should do the trick. The machines these commands run on don't have internet access, so I just can't (ql:quickload ...) but rather copy everything by hand.
2015-05-21T16:17:42Z gko: anyway, thanks for your inputs.
2015-05-21T16:17:44Z White_Flame: if you're copying, then put your code in local-projects with an .asd
2015-05-21T16:17:49Z White_Flame: one bundle to shove to the dest machine
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2015-05-21T16:18:28Z elderK: Hey guys, quick question:
2015-05-21T16:18:37Z White_Flame: quick answer: maybe
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2015-05-21T16:18:41Z elderK: I'm creating a toy binding for sockets. Just socket, bind, etc.
2015-05-21T16:18:52Z elderK: But when I get an error, I can't get perror / errno to tell me what actually happened.
2015-05-21T16:18:54Z gko: Yeah. Glad to now use Linux machines instead of Solaris / DEC Alpha machines to get up-to-date stuff...
2015-05-21T16:18:58Z elderK: I think it's being reset by the CFFI/FFI layer.
2015-05-21T16:19:17Z elderK: Does that sound like a sane assumption?
2015-05-21T16:19:27Z oGMo: no, errno is probably not a regular variable
2015-05-21T16:19:46Z gko: socket? implementation-dependent..
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2015-05-21T16:20:07Z elderK: Exactly.
2015-05-21T16:20:12Z elderK: That's why I was calling the perror function instead.
2015-05-21T16:20:15Z elderK: (FFI bound)
2015-05-21T16:20:24Z elderK: Ahhhhhhhh. Wait a minute, that's stupid...
2015-05-21T16:20:28Z elderK: :)
2015-05-21T16:22:04Z elderK: My bad...
2015-05-21T16:22:07Z elderK: It was me being really stupid :)
2015-05-21T16:22:17Z elderK: Because perror prints to stdout, it wasn't appearing in the SLIME display.
2015-05-21T16:22:22Z elderK: But instead, on the Xterm running sbcl.
2015-05-21T16:22:24Z elderK: D'Oh!
2015-05-21T16:22:25Z elderK: :)
2015-05-21T16:22:28Z elderK: Sorry guys :)
2015-05-21T16:22:48Z White_Flame: it prints to stderr, actually
2015-05-21T16:22:54Z elderK: That's the one :)
2015-05-21T16:23:02Z elderK: Anywho, how do people normally access errno?
2015-05-21T16:23:33Z elderK: And is there a better way to access foreign enumeration constants than saying cffi:foreign-enum-value ?
2015-05-21T16:23:49Z elderK: I know you can tell cffi-grovel to define the constants but the way it does it, doesn't follow the convention I'd like...
2015-05-21T16:23:54Z elderK: so I do it manually instead...
2015-05-21T16:24:06Z elderK: (defconstant +bla+ (cffi:foreign-enum-value ....))
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2015-05-21T16:25:44Z elderK: Aha. According to cffi, you can access errno with defcvar
2015-05-21T16:25:45Z elderK: :)
2015-05-21T16:25:46Z elderK: Awesome.
2015-05-21T16:26:00Z Xach: (sb-alien:get-errno)
2015-05-21T16:26:51Z elderK: If you're on SBCL :)
2015-05-21T16:27:25Z Xach: yes
2015-05-21T16:34:28Z elderK: so, do + or * denote constants? :)
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2015-05-21T16:34:41Z White_Flame: +constants+
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2015-05-21T16:35:00Z elderK: Thanks :)
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2015-05-21T16:45:57Z elderK: Man, this is cool.
2015-05-21T16:46:08Z elderK: It's awesome being able to just... do it all interactively.
2015-05-21T16:46:08Z elderK: :D
2015-05-21T16:46:10Z elderK: So cool.
2015-05-21T16:47:39Z elderK: Thanks for your help guys. No doubt you'll see me again :)
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2015-05-21T17:00:37Z loz1: hi, is it possible to disconnect slime from lisp image and then reconnect back?
2015-05-21T17:02:04Z loz1: i'm doing slime-disconnect, then trying to use ports seen by netstat to connect to sbcl, but connection hangs
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2015-05-21T17:22:17Z oleo: hello :)
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2015-05-21T17:56:49Z jasom: loz1: yes it is
2015-05-21T17:57:27Z jasom: loz1: I don't know how to tell emacs to launch a lisp image with reconnection supported (you probably can, I just don't know how), but it's easy to do if you start a swank server yourself
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2015-05-21T18:26:49Z jackdaniel: hm, does (destructuring-read (syntax stream) ...) makes any sense?
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2015-05-21T18:35:56Z jasom: where does standard error (not *error-output*, I'm using run-program) go when connected with slime?
2015-05-21T18:36:12Z jasom: *inferior-lisp*?
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2015-05-21T18:37:35Z loz1: is this behaviour implied by standard? https://ideone.com/nSxWry
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2015-05-21T18:52:40Z pjb: loz1: yes. compare with (defparameter *c2* (make-closure 'f))
2015-05-21T18:52:55Z pjb: loz1: ALWAYS USE ** around SPECIAL variables!
2015-05-21T18:53:05Z pjb: loz1: ALWAYS!!!
2015-05-21T18:53:10Z pjb: loz1: Really ALWAYS!!!
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2015-05-21T20:08:26Z loz1: pjb: ok, ok, calm down)
2015-05-21T20:08:52Z loz1: its just a snippet, really
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2015-05-21T20:30:37Z gendl: Hi, in asdf is there a way to automate the distribution of components of a system? For example if I have a system with some :static-file components, can I use some asdf operators to identify those pathnames and copy them to a distribution directory?
2015-05-21T20:31:48Z pjb: gendl: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Predefined-operations-of-ASDF.html
2015-05-21T20:32:06Z pjb: cf. compile-bundle-op concatenate-source-op
2015-05-21T20:33:08Z gendl: pjb: thanks - so I think the answer is no, there’s not a predefined operation to do what I’m talking about.
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2015-05-21T20:34:12Z gendl: I don’t want to concatenate the source, or produce a binary - just get hold of the components of type :static-file, so I can do something with them.
2015-05-21T20:34:32Z Xach: gendl: I think there are a few systems that do something like that in quicklisp. i think perhaps ironclad, or something else by nathan froyd.
2015-05-21T20:35:13Z Xach: Hmm, looking at the ironclad .asd doesn't offer any hint of that.
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2015-05-21T20:39:41Z gendl: was just looking at it too.
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2015-05-21T20:41:19Z gendl: If I understood the structure of the asdf system object better, it would probably be trivial to query it for what I need.
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2015-05-21T20:42:10Z Xach: gendl: http://wcp.sdf-eu.org/software/asdfa.lisp looks like it defines a pack-op
2015-05-21T20:42:22Z Xach: could be out of date, since that looks like an old file
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2015-05-21T22:02:39Z jasom: gendl: just don't do what I did; have a .lisp file that depends on the static-file component with an eval-when :compile that copies the file
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2015-05-21T22:56:52Z gendl: jasom: sounds clever but maybe too clever. How do you get ahold of the actual pathname of the static file component in order to copy it?
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2015-05-22T03:08:03Z drmeister: After several years of preparation I'm finally adding my chemistry code to Clasp.
2015-05-22T03:09:18Z drmeister: The idea is that to Clasp Common Lisp are added a whole bunch of packages, builtin classes and functions that build molecules.  All of these new builtin classes are garbage collected the same way regular Common Lisp objects are garbage collected.
2015-05-22T03:10:06Z drmeister: I'm also adding MPI - the Message Passing Interface - so it becomes part of the language.
2015-05-22T03:10:22Z gendl: drmeister: woohoo!
2015-05-22T03:10:36Z gendl: I was trying to learn something about MPI the other day.
2015-05-22T03:11:09Z drmeister: It will create a new version of Clasp called "Cando" which has everything Clasp has: ASDF, Slime, quicklisp - but it can do molecular modeling on very large parallel supercomputers.
2015-05-22T03:11:36Z drmeister: Yes, the idea is that you can send s-expressions between processes.
2015-05-22T03:11:59Z gendl: MPI is a lot more general than sending s-expressions, isn’t it?
2015-05-22T03:12:03Z drmeister: You can send code between processes, have it compile in the target process and run.
2015-05-22T03:12:48Z gendl: Gendl has a home-grown kind of message-passing interface which we use to allow a child object to live on a remote Gendl (Lisp) process.
2015-05-22T03:12:55Z drmeister: When I last looked at it MPI data transfer is primitive - it's basically Fortran style tables.
2015-05-22T03:14:47Z gendl: I have the idea to extend our remote-object capability to allow remote child objects to exist in other environments, like Python, Java, whatever - but to do that I think we have to use something more neutral than s-expressions over the wire. somethine like JSON.
2015-05-22T03:15:00Z gendl: I was wondering if it’s worth looking at a standard like MPI for doing that.
2015-05-22T03:15:14Z drmeister: Sure.
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2015-05-22T03:15:38Z gendl: Anyway I don’t mean to change the topic. Sounds like clasp is really screaming along. I am eager to try to get Gendl up and running on it.
2015-05-22T03:16:15Z drmeister: Cool!
2015-05-22T03:16:54Z gendl: one rather unusual (these days) dependency we have for the full web-based interface is portableallegroserve.
2015-05-22T03:17:07Z gendl: I think that’s the main blocker at this point for ECL, ABCL, and clisp.
2015-05-22T03:17:30Z gendl: the kernel and geom-base modules run on those systems now, but not the web stuff, because paserve.
2015-05-22T03:18:51Z gendl: I have to touch base with Rudi Schlatte and see what we can do to help that along. Most of the complexity in paserve is the acl-compat package it uses, and most of acl-compat these days can be stripped down to the bone and implemented with defacto standard stuff from quicklisp.
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2015-05-22T03:20:05Z gendl: What I’m saying is, before brute-force trying to port paserve to those other CLs, it will make sense to factor acl-compat down to the bone so it’s mainly made up of already-supported stuff.
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2015-05-22T03:20:21Z gendl: but again I digress - back to clasp.
2015-05-22T03:20:59Z gendl: the commercial variant of Gendl, Genworks GDL, ships with a commercial C/C++ solid modeling library called SMLib.
2015-05-22T03:21:36Z gendl: We have to build this into a .dll (or .so or .dylib), then interface to it with UFFI. So far I’ve been too lazy to get this working with anything but Allegro and LW, so we only ship commercially on those platforms.
2015-05-22T03:22:06Z gendl: Is it true that with clasp, potentially we can be calling into SMLib functions and methods without really going through an FFI?
2015-05-22T03:22:47Z gendl: drmeister: if you’re still around…
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2015-05-22T03:23:27Z drmeister: Sorry - I'm running Common Lisp code that's rewriting my C++ code - it's a little tense at the moment.
2015-05-22T03:23:50Z cluck: it's alive! \o/
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2015-05-22T03:24:22Z drmeister: It's running now ... reading...
2015-05-22T03:26:02Z drmeister: gendl: Yes, you can call into SMLib functions and methods without going through the sort of FFI that you are familiar with.
2015-05-22T03:26:23Z drmeister: I do it all the time to call into LLVM, Clang and Clasp C++ code.
2015-05-22T03:27:20Z drmeister: You write things like:     def("SMLib-function",&SMLib-function);   or class_<SMLibClass>("smlib-class").def("smlib-method",&SMLibClass::smlibMethod) ;
2015-05-22T03:27:38Z drmeister: That's all it takes to expose functions, classes and methods to Clasp Common Lisp.
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2015-05-22T03:29:01Z drmeister: gendl: Is SMLib a C++ library or a C library?
2015-05-22T03:29:20Z gendl: both
2015-05-22T03:29:28Z gendl: it’s made from NLib which is pure C
2015-05-22T03:29:35Z gendl: plus NMTLib which is C++
2015-05-22T03:29:52Z gendl: plus HarmonyWare (the CAD data translators) which is C++
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2015-05-22T03:30:29Z gendl: currently we have a load of hand-coded C wrappers which are what we call from CL.
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2015-05-22T03:33:26Z drmeister: So with Clasp you write that stuff I showed you above, one line per function/class/method/enum and clang builds the code that wraps everything at compile time.  So when the API changes the compiler takes care of it or if a function disappears it generates a compile time error that you fix by removing the statement that exposes that function.
2015-05-22T03:33:50Z drmeister: Clasp takes care of all of the conversion from Common Lisp objects to C++ and back.
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2015-05-22T03:34:38Z gendl: 8)
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2015-05-22T03:35:13Z drmeister: You don't need to know function/method signatures when you interface the code.  Of course you do need to know the signature when you call the functions from Common Lisp.
2015-05-22T03:36:00Z drmeister: Values that are passed by reference to the C++ functions are automatically converted to multiple return values.
2015-05-22T03:36:22Z drmeister: You can specify pointer ownership policies when you expose functions/methods.  etc.
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2015-05-22T03:37:17Z drmeister: Like I said - I exposed clang - which is a completely naive C++ library - it was never intended to be used by anything other than other C++ code.
2015-05-22T03:44:03Z drmeister: "Like I said" - I shouldn't use that phrase - it sounds so rude when I read it.  Sorry.
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2015-05-22T03:53:42Z gendl: didn’t feel rude to me.
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2015-05-22T04:01:36Z theos: you could say "Like theos said". i wont mind
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2015-05-22T04:02:54Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-05-22T04:07:08Z theos: hey
2015-05-22T04:08:49Z drmeister: Hi beach
2015-05-22T04:09:06Z failproofshark: hello
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2015-05-22T04:41:05Z beach: drmeister: Any more thoughts about Lisp-y LLVM instruction set?
2015-05-22T04:41:39Z drmeister: No - I've been making tremendous progress with the build system and integrating my chemistry code.
2015-05-22T04:41:51Z beach: That's great news.
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2015-05-22T04:43:21Z drmeister: I've figured out how to (1) lay out the directories (2) get everything working with git (3) create a new version of the clasp executable that incorporates the chemistry C++ classes (4) automatically rewrite all of the #include directives to point to the rearranged directories.
2015-05-22T04:44:58Z drmeister: I'm working on getting the first module incorporated to create a new version of clasp that has 3D vectors, matrices and 3D vector arrays - geometry.
2015-05-22T04:45:32Z drmeister: All of these new classes will behave like builtin Common Lisp classes and they will be managed by the garbage collector.
2015-05-22T04:45:34Z beach: Nice.  You use that for the chemistry code?
2015-05-22T04:45:52Z drmeister: Yes, molecules are three-dimensional entities - just very, very small.
2015-05-22T04:46:19Z drmeister: 9 orders of magnitude smaller than we are.
2015-05-22T04:46:54Z beach: Don't you have to take into account quantum effects?
2015-05-22T04:47:55Z drmeister: No, that's a different level of theory.
2015-05-22T04:48:20Z beach: That makes things easier I suppose.
2015-05-22T04:48:31Z drmeister: We treat molecules sort of like balls connected by springs.  The quantum effects are built into force-field parameters.
2015-05-22T04:48:55Z beach: Sounds good to me.
2015-05-22T04:49:02Z drmeister: It makes things possible.  The time that quantum mechanics calculations take goes as the fourth power of the number of electrons.
2015-05-22T04:49:48Z beach: Heh!
2015-05-22T04:50:48Z drmeister: The kind of calculations I use scale by the second power of the number of atoms.
2015-05-22T04:51:21Z drmeister: So calculations on molecules of an interesting size become tractable.
2015-05-22T04:51:42Z beach: And how many atoms are we talking about here?
2015-05-22T04:51:54Z drmeister: Hundreds to hundreds of thousands.
2015-05-22T04:52:04Z Bike: yay, proteins.
2015-05-22T04:52:08Z beach: So you need to take into account forces between pairs of atoms?
2015-05-22T04:52:26Z Bike: good to hear that balls on springs is normal.
2015-05-22T04:53:03Z drmeister: Yes - that's where N^2 comes in.  There are approaches to ignore atoms that are too far away from each other.
2015-05-22T04:53:06Z beach: When you have that many atoms, can't you ignore interactions between atoms that are fare apart?
2015-05-22T04:53:11Z beach: heh
2015-05-22T04:53:34Z drmeister: Yes, but electrostatic interactions are dangerous to ignore and very strong.
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2015-05-22T04:53:56Z beach: But they are inversely proportional to the square of the distance, yes?
2015-05-22T04:54:20Z drmeister: The force - yes.
2015-05-22T04:54:51Z drmeister: But the simulations we run are in relatively small volumes.
2015-05-22T04:54:54Z Bike: they're covalently bound, it's not like a gas, so you have to care about van der waals and shit
2015-05-22T04:55:00Z drmeister: So nothing gets too far from anything else.
2015-05-22T04:55:12Z beach: Got it.
2015-05-22T04:55:43Z Bike: biology stuff makes statistical mechanics hard. who knew
2015-05-22T04:56:06Z beach: Bike: Perhaps you should consider making a Common Lisp version of drmeister's chemistry code.
2015-05-22T04:56:23Z beach: It would be fun to see how much faster the Common Lisp code would be compared to the C++ code.
2015-05-22T04:57:02Z beach: There are probably a few good papers in there too.
2015-05-22T04:57:27Z Bike: from what i've seen of cando that's a pretty tall order.
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2015-05-22T04:57:55Z Bike: i think i understand the stuff i work on well enough to rewrite it from scratch now, though, so i might do that. certainly can't be worse than 200-across constant matrices called HARDY and LAUREL
2015-05-22T04:58:23Z oleo_: moooorniiinnnnggg *aaarrrggghh*
2015-05-22T04:58:46Z beach: Bike: Huh?  Where did you get this Laurel & Hardy stuff?
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2015-05-22T04:59:40Z Bike: the code at my job, i mean. it was written a long time ago and has unhelpful variable names.
2015-05-22T04:59:44Z Bike: and i like complaining (sorry)
2015-05-22T05:00:03Z beach: No that's fine.  I collect stories like that for a planned book. :)
2015-05-22T05:00:32Z beach: Bike: Let me guess.  The people who wrote it are not programmers, right?
2015-05-22T05:01:30Z Bike: nah. bioengineers.
2015-05-22T05:01:36Z beach: Mhm.
2015-05-22T05:02:39Z Bike: a few days ago i read a 1977 paper and whipped it up in a page of code. it conses way more than it should, though, dunno what's happening there. and then for extra lispiness i made a metaprogram for it. booyah.
2015-05-22T05:04:19Z beach: Bike: I see.  I am intrigued by the ITA story where they were able to compete with an old program written in assembler, just because they were able to consider much more complex algorithms when using Common Lisp.
2015-05-22T05:04:46Z beach: I have a feeling there is something to learn in that story for other domains as well.
2015-05-22T05:04:52Z Bike: well, i guess it's sort of the same, but 1977 is perhaps a bit unfair.
2015-05-22T05:05:03Z beach: Perhaps, yes.
2015-05-22T05:05:15Z Bike: they wrote programs in fortran, and they wrote one program for each reaction scheme. i wrote a function for arbitrary schemes, and then one that generates a function for a given scheme.
2015-05-22T05:05:39Z beach: Right, that's a good example of what I am talking about.
2015-05-22T05:06:18Z Bike: in half a page, too. most of the programs i write now are short one off things like that and it's much more fun for me to do that in lisp than in blah blah classfiles, but that's just me
2015-05-22T05:06:31Z Bike: don't have to worry about parsing input or nuthin.
2015-05-22T05:07:27Z beach: Write it up and submit it to ELS or ILC.
2015-05-22T05:07:52Z beach: Someone might pay your trip to go present it.
2015-05-22T05:08:23Z drmeister: People pay trips to ELS?
2015-05-22T05:08:44Z beach: drmeister: My department does.
2015-05-22T05:09:26Z Bike: a twenty line LOOP invocation hardly seems like enough to be a fair paper to me, but i haven't published anything so i guess i wouldn't know
2015-05-22T05:10:29Z beach: Bike: Let's talk about it sometime.  You might be surprised.
2015-05-22T05:11:15Z Bike: I really wish I could tell what's consing, though. SBCL's two pages of notes for things to work on are nice, but...
2015-05-22T05:11:58Z beach: I don't have time to look at it myself, but if it is a 20-line LOOP, then you might paste it and ask people here.
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2015-05-22T05:15:17Z drmeister: It looks like I have my work cut out for me updating my Chemistry code.
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2015-05-22T05:15:56Z drmeister: I made a lot of changes to the way I do things over the last couple of months.
2015-05-22T05:16:27Z Bike: actually, drmeister, i don't suppose you do kinetics
2015-05-22T05:16:40Z drmeister: Reaction kinetics?  Sure.
2015-05-22T05:16:48Z Bike: in detail?
2015-05-22T05:16:54Z Bike: cos all i did is the gillespie algorithm.
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2015-05-22T05:19:16Z drmeister: I haven't implemented it - but I know what it is.
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2015-05-22T05:21:14Z drmeister: I better head to bed - I'm fading.
2015-05-22T05:21:34Z Bike: good night.
2015-05-22T05:22:48Z Bike: well, here it is anyway, in case someone has any insight. http://paste.lisp.org/+36M1
2015-05-22T05:23:42Z Bike: As far as i can tell, sbcl can't make a local function return unboxed floats to go into a float array, though i might be misunderstanding the issue.
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2015-05-22T05:50:31Z beach: Bike: Did you try compiling it with (SPEED 3) and maybe also (SAFETY 0)?
2015-05-22T05:51:12Z Bike: it had speed 3 and space 3. i put it in a locally because i let it take weird arrays and coerce them to specific ones.
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2015-05-22T05:52:38Z Bike: still complains about the boxing with safety zero, looks like.
2015-05-22T05:52:52Z beach: Hmm.
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2015-05-22T06:40:22Z EuAndreh: Is there portable a way to get the PID better than https://github.com/archimag/mongo-cl-driver/blob/82e56a390aa14cf642904740fb13c797568610a2/bson/types.lisp#L51
2015-05-22T06:40:36Z EuAndreh: ?
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2015-05-22T06:44:40Z _1_sam0069: hii
2015-05-22T06:47:45Z White_Flame: EuAndreh: trivial-shell has it, which basically does what you do, just in a lib with other tools
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2015-05-22T06:49:15Z White_Flame: ah, n/m, that function doesn't look exported.  But some trivial platform like that could do it for you
2015-05-22T06:50:48Z White_Flame: https://github.com/gwkkwg/trivial-shell
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2015-05-22T06:59:08Z EuAndreh: White_Flame: thanks, I'll check that.
2015-05-22T07:00:02Z White_Flame: EuAndreh: running the unexported functions from quicklisp, I get errors
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2015-05-22T07:00:43Z White_Flame: but it basically does what you do.  If I were you, I'd wrap your #+ body into a get-os-pid function, which you can then swap out for something else that works if you want
2015-05-22T07:00:59Z White_Flame: you really don't want platform specifcs inside a function body that does other things
2015-05-22T07:01:15Z Shinmera: Good mourning, #lisp
2015-05-22T07:01:22Z jackdaniel: good morning
2015-05-22T07:01:24Z Shinmera forgot to quit his IRC client for the night again.
2015-05-22T07:01:25Z White_Flame: re
2015-05-22T07:03:11Z Shinmera: Yesterday someone asked me about Parasol again, I really wish I had time to spare to work on it right now.
2015-05-22T07:03:46Z EuAndreh: What unexported symbol are you talking about? Is it in trivial-shell?
2015-05-22T07:04:10Z EuAndreh: White_Flame: or is it in another library?
2015-05-22T07:04:17Z White_Flame: trivial-shell::os-process-id
2015-05-22T07:04:35Z EuAndreh: White_Flame: Thanks.
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2015-05-22T07:05:19Z White_Flame: EuAndreh: I just did some quick googling for a trivial-* package with it, I haven't used trivial-shell specifically
2015-05-22T07:06:36Z Shinmera: UIOP seems to have some PID stuff, let me see.
2015-05-22T07:07:39Z EuAndreh: Shinmera: I couldn't find it in UIOP.
2015-05-22T07:08:13Z Shinmera: It has some internals related to it for use in RUN-PROGRAM, but nothing exported or directly usable.
2015-05-22T07:08:52Z EuAndreh: trivial-shell::os-process-id works only in some implementations.
2015-05-22T07:08:55Z Shinmera: See %process-info-pid for the portability layer. The only step left after that is getting the process object itself.
2015-05-22T07:08:58Z EuAndreh: https://github.com/gwkkwg/trivial-shell/blob/master/dev/sbcl.lisp#L83
2015-05-22T07:09:03Z EuAndreh: Yeah.
2015-05-22T07:09:20Z EuAndreh: I think I'll make a PR too add support for more implementations.
2015-05-22T07:09:33Z White_Flame: EuAndreh: right, and the 'unsupported-function-error it tries to throw is undefined :-P
2015-05-22T07:09:57Z White_Flame: s/throw/raise/
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2015-05-22T07:20:04Z EuAndreh: Now trivial-shell:os-process-id should work: https://github.com/gwkkwg/trivial-shell/pull/9
2015-05-22T07:20:45Z EuAndreh: Maybe not fully, but less partially
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2015-05-22T07:24:49Z jackdaniel: EuAndreh: if you're at it, could you also add ecl? it's (ext:getpid) for process id
2015-05-22T07:25:46Z EuAndreh: jackdaniel: Sure.
2015-05-22T07:25:51Z jackdaniel: thanks :-)
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2015-05-22T07:27:40Z EuAndreh: Done.
2015-05-22T07:27:44Z jackdaniel: \o/
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2015-05-22T07:54:06Z jackdaniel: what is non-terminating macro character?
2015-05-22T07:58:07Z |3b|: a macro character that doesnt interrupt parsing a sequence of characters as a symbol
2015-05-22T07:58:57Z jackdaniel: oh, so if ^ is non-terminating macro character, then abc ^ xyz would be abcxyz?
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2015-05-22T08:01:27Z |3b|: for example in '(foo'bar hoge#piyo), ' is a terminating macro character so foo'bar reads as FOO (QUOTE BAR), while # isn't so hoge#piyo reads as |HOGE#PIYO|
2015-05-22T08:02:03Z |3b|: while hoge #piyo would error, since iyo isn't a valid pathname
2015-05-22T08:02:56Z jackdaniel: ok, now I get it, thank you
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2015-05-22T08:05:02Z |3b|: possibly that should have been "token" rather than "symbol", since i think that happens before it decides if it will interpret it as a symbol or number
2015-05-22T08:05:48Z |3b|: yeah, 12'3 => 12 '3 while 12#3 => |12#3|
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2015-05-22T09:52:12Z jackdaniel: I've tweaked protoist's literal function macro to not loop at runtime and allow reaching arguments of outer literal functions. RFC http://ix.io/iI6/common-lisp
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2015-05-22T09:53:33Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for protoist: what do you think about change like http://ix.io/iI6/common-lisp ?
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2015-05-22T09:53:43Z jackdaniel: hm
2015-05-22T09:53:55Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell protoist when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-05-22T11:35:32Z attila_lendvai: cliki.net is down
2015-05-22T11:36:05Z ehu: attila_lendvai: I'm restarting the system. it had a system load of 25.
2015-05-22T11:36:20Z attila_lendvai: uhh... :) ok
2015-05-22T11:36:21Z ehu: attila_lendvai: thanks for the heads up.
2015-05-22T11:36:21Z antoszka: ouch
2015-05-22T11:36:47Z ehu: I found it quite responsive, considering.
2015-05-22T11:36:56Z attila_lendvai measures the boot time :)
2015-05-22T11:37:28Z ehu: heh. well, I'm trying to close down processes nicely. so, it's going to take a while, I think.
2015-05-22T11:38:01Z ehu: I've been considering adding an SSD to the system to cache the rotational devices.
2015-05-22T11:38:04Z p_l has been recently struck with how "loadavg 25" is actually "server is underutilized" on some machines...
2015-05-22T11:38:49Z ehu: p_l: well, on this machine, %wa was way high up too.
2015-05-22T11:38:57Z p_l: heh
2015-05-22T11:39:04Z ehu: which probably means that the cpu was underutiziled.
2015-05-22T11:39:27Z p_l: or something got hung
2015-05-22T11:39:38Z ehu: that's very much possible as well.
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2015-05-22T11:40:11Z p_l: these days a medium range server can come with 48 cores
2015-05-22T11:40:13Z ehu: this sounds weird: 207 processes total, 206 sleeping, load average (1min) 7.45
2015-05-22T11:40:29Z ehu: with all but one sleeping, how can it be so high?
2015-05-22T11:40:39Z ehu: anyway,
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2015-05-22T11:40:57Z ehu: I'm hesitant to have the SSD added, because it might mean completely reorganizing the disk structure.
2015-05-22T11:41:24Z ehu: and that usually means downtime.
2015-05-22T11:41:29Z ehu: which I want to prevent.
2015-05-22T11:42:24Z p_l: physical host?
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2015-05-22T11:42:50Z ehu: the SSD currenly isn't in the physical host, yes.
2015-05-22T11:42:57Z kami: Hello #lisp
2015-05-22T11:43:02Z ehu: so, having it added means changing the setup of the physical host.
2015-05-22T11:43:15Z p_l: ehu: and I guess no hot-add? :D
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2015-05-22T11:44:11Z ehu: heh. no. but even if that were the case, I'd have to put a bcache between the VM's LVM partitions and the physical disks.
2015-05-22T11:44:20Z ehu: that can't be done in a "hot" fashion.
2015-05-22T11:44:24Z White_Flame: "sleeping" is only at the instant that top polls it
2015-05-22T11:44:37Z ehu: adding the ssd probably won't take more than 5-10 minutes.
2015-05-22T11:44:41Z White_Flame: therefore, usually 'top' is the only thing runnign exactly then
2015-05-22T11:44:57Z White_Flame: at least in my experience
2015-05-22T11:45:05Z White_Flame: even if other things are pinning cores
2015-05-22T11:45:10Z ehu: White_Flame: that's a bad joke, if it's true.
2015-05-22T11:45:31Z White_Flame: it's old legacy APIs in a more modern age
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2015-05-22T11:59:42Z flip214: ehu: because they're waiting for disk IO
2015-05-22T12:00:38Z flip214: ehu: that's why they're sleeping.
2015-05-22T12:00:46Z ehu: hmm. I guess my expected definition of "sleeping" is off then, I guess.
2015-05-22T12:00:47Z ehu: ok.
2015-05-22T12:00:49Z ehu: thanks.
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2015-05-22T12:01:08Z flip214: if you want a HA setup, we could help... that would mean hardware upgrades without downtime, too.
2015-05-22T12:01:48Z flip214: but, of course, a second machine - which might not the desired outcome.
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2015-05-22T12:02:40Z ehu: :-) with a second machine, I can migrate the VM over to that machine, change the setup of the current machine and migrate the VM back.
2015-05-22T12:02:50Z ehu: that's no problem for my current setup.
2015-05-22T12:03:00Z ehu: although to be honest, I hadn't thought of going that route.
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2015-05-22T12:03:16Z H4ns: you could also shut down the vm, do the upgrade, and boot it again
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2015-05-22T12:20:03Z ehu: yea. that's the route that I'm going to take as soon as I decide when to add the SSD.
2015-05-22T12:20:09Z ehu: but I've disabled trac now.
2015-05-22T12:20:18Z ehu: that seems to reduce system load significantly.
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2015-05-22T12:20:48Z ehu: I'll investigate what's going on there later. have to go to a meeting in a bit. At least the system operations seem to be returning to normal.
2015-05-22T12:24:05Z elderK: ehu: SSDs are fantastic.
2015-05-22T12:24:15Z elderK: Seriously, massive speed boost if you've only used mechanical drives.
2015-05-22T12:24:40Z ehu: elderK: right. but when added to an already running server platform, it's also a risk.
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2015-05-22T12:25:27Z elderK: ehu: That's true.
2015-05-22T12:25:40Z elderK: I'd imagine you'd be concerned about SSD longevity too then?
2015-05-22T12:26:04Z elderK: I've been using mine for two years so far without a hitch. But that's nothing compared to mechanical drives.
2015-05-22T12:26:10Z elderK: At least, decent ones. :)
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2015-05-22T12:27:32Z jackdaniel: cliki.net down
2015-05-22T12:27:50Z jackdaniel: o, nvm
2015-05-22T12:28:00Z elderK: Yo jackdaniel!
2015-05-22T12:28:02Z jackdaniel: o/
2015-05-22T12:28:49Z jackdaniel: I see nobody commented my hairy macros, hoped to spot a few particularily ugly constructs my untrained eye can't recognize
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2015-05-22T12:29:33Z elderK: common-lisp.net's dead from me :/
2015-05-22T12:29:54Z jackdaniel: from discussion above I assume server is being restarted now
2015-05-22T12:30:05Z jackdaniel: therefore no cliki neither cl.ent
2015-05-22T12:30:53Z jackdaniel: fyi abovementioned macro is here http://ix.io/iI6/common-lisp
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2015-05-22T12:31:41Z elderK: Hey guys, how do I tell ASDF that my files end in .cl rather than .lisp?
2015-05-22T12:31:44Z elderK: I know there's static-file
2015-05-22T12:31:49Z elderK: Is that the only way?
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2015-05-22T12:33:51Z dim: elderK: I'm finding http://stackoverflow.com/questions/29341044/choose-extension-of-file-component-in-asdf-defsystem which seems of interest here
2015-05-22T12:34:26Z elderK: Thanks dim
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2015-05-22T12:35:57Z Xach: There's a builtin class for .cl files, I believe
2015-05-22T12:36:11Z Xach: yes, it's called asdf:cl-source-file.cl
2015-05-22T12:36:17Z Xach: similar for .lisp
2015-05-22T12:36:19Z Xach: err, .lsp
2015-05-22T12:36:38Z Xach muscle memory can't even type ".lsp" on the first try
2015-05-22T12:36:52Z Xach: You can also set the default type somehow.
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2015-05-22T12:38:59Z elderK: So glad that SlimV exists :)
2015-05-22T12:39:07Z elderK: Thanks Xach :)
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2015-05-22T12:39:14Z oleo: hello :)
2015-05-22T12:39:47Z jackdaniel: hello oleo
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2015-05-22T12:40:42Z Xach: elderK: out of curiosity, why are they named .cl?
2015-05-22T12:41:59Z elderK: Just personal preference really.
2015-05-22T12:42:06Z elderK: No other reason :)
2015-05-22T12:42:25Z Xach: I recommend getting with the program
2015-05-22T12:43:26Z elderK: And just using .lisp?
2015-05-22T12:43:27Z elderK: :)
2015-05-22T12:43:36Z elderK: I have :)
2015-05-22T12:43:57Z oleo: sup jackdaniel
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2015-05-22T13:28:08Z elderK: MAN
2015-05-22T13:28:10Z elderK: This is cool :)
2015-05-22T13:28:18Z elderK: ^_^ Just created a barebones binding for sockets.
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2015-05-22T13:28:21Z elderK: Now to play with it.
2015-05-22T13:28:26Z elderK: It's so awesome being able to just... work like this.
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2015-05-22T13:28:42Z elderK: REPL! Do this!
2015-05-22T13:28:43Z elderK: BING!
2015-05-22T13:28:46Z elderK: :)
2015-05-22T13:28:50Z elderK: No compile, link, bla.
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2015-05-22T13:29:15Z Adlai: well, there is a compile, and in some lisps (eg ECL) there is also linking
2015-05-22T13:29:35Z elderK: Well, yes.
2015-05-22T13:29:37Z Adlai: but the default workflow integrates them seamlessly
2015-05-22T13:29:38Z elderK: but you know what I mean :)
2015-05-22T13:29:57Z elderK: Now I just need to learn how to define recurisve data structures via CFFI
2015-05-22T13:30:00Z elderK: I know how SBCL does it
2015-05-22T13:30:04Z elderK: but I'm not sure how CFFI does it :)
2015-05-22T13:30:05Z Adlai: you could also just edit all your files, rewrite everything, then ,force-compile-system but... why?
2015-05-22T13:30:26Z Adlai knows why - because elderK isn't using slime :P
2015-05-22T13:32:08Z elderK: I'm using SlimV which is a crappier version of SLIME but for Vim.
2015-05-22T13:32:09Z elderK: :P
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2015-05-22T13:32:26Z elderK: But it still works pretty well :)
2015-05-22T13:32:33Z Adlai: does it also have comma commands?
2015-05-22T13:32:42Z elderK: Yes.
2015-05-22T13:32:44Z Adlai: awesome
2015-05-22T13:32:47Z elderK: And par edit and all that jazz.
2015-05-22T13:32:55Z Adlai: paredit actually isn't part of vanilla slime
2015-05-22T13:33:02Z elderK: I wasn't aware :)
2015-05-22T13:33:04Z elderK: But it's neat.
2015-05-22T13:33:16Z elderK: It certainly doesn't work as well as SLIMe I expect.
2015-05-22T13:33:21Z Adlai: (might be these days, haven't set up slime from scratch recently)
2015-05-22T13:33:26Z elderK: But, for me, as I've not used SLIME all that much, it's pretty cool :)
2015-05-22T13:33:38Z Adlai: it's quite important to have an editor you're convenient with
2015-05-22T13:33:56Z Adlai: also worth noting that emacs has not one but THREE modes for emulating vi keybindings :P
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2015-05-22T13:38:03Z elderK: Christ.
2015-05-22T13:38:08Z elderK: :P so many modes to emulate Vi.
2015-05-22T13:38:16Z elderK: I don't know. I've tried to pick up Emacs.
2015-05-22T13:38:18Z elderK: I have it installed too.
2015-05-22T13:38:24Z elderK: Even bought some books for it - and gone through it's tutorials.
2015-05-22T13:38:32Z elderK: But I've been using Vi for over a decade.
2015-05-22T13:38:34Z elderK: It's so natural to me now.
2015-05-22T13:38:43Z elderK: Like you said, convenience.
2015-05-22T13:38:46Z elderK: I'm just comfortable with it :)
2015-05-22T13:39:04Z elderK: When Vim proves sufficiently shit for Lisp, I'll have more reason to properly learn Emacs.
2015-05-22T13:39:07Z elderK: For now, it's okay.
2015-05-22T13:39:53Z H4ns: elderK: you are not too old to learn something new.  and you'll get extra props when someone sees you editing proficiently in vi: "i though you were an emacs dude"
2015-05-22T13:39:58Z H4ns: thoughT
2015-05-22T13:40:06Z elderK: Hehe.
2015-05-22T13:40:17Z elderK: Well, SlimV sure as hell beats what I was doing like, six years ago when I was learning Scheme.
2015-05-22T13:40:28Z elderK: Back then I had a bunch of little scripts that sent shit through to Screen or Tmux.
2015-05-22T13:40:31Z elderK: That was very crude.
2015-05-22T13:40:35Z elderK: But it did the trick for me then.
2015-05-22T13:40:41Z elderK: But now SlimV's here and it's all nice and convenient.
2015-05-22T13:40:44Z elderK: And works without much trouble.
2015-05-22T13:40:58Z elderK: If anyone comes in here though and is having issues with SlimV and ECL
2015-05-22T13:41:12Z elderK: Let them know ECL really doesn't work that well with the SLIME/SWANK bundled with SlimV.
2015-05-22T13:41:27Z H4ns: elderK: please finish your sentences before pressing return.
2015-05-22T13:41:28Z elderK: SBCL runs beautifully with it though.
2015-05-22T13:41:33Z elderK: H4ns: Sorry.
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2015-05-22T13:46:44Z pjb: elderK: , and RET are two totally different fingers.
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2015-05-22T14:37:39Z ARYAN_NATIONS: 0/ 88 WPWW 23/16 0/
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2015-05-22T14:47:24Z flip214: is that some WW2 cipher? does someone has an enigma at hand?
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2015-05-22T14:47:59Z jackdaniel has quantum machine, it means: "yes"
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2015-05-22T14:51:39Z flip214: Xach: would you please show this individual the door? or is there some other op?
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2015-05-22T14:52:15Z flip214: hmmm, "töten" is written as "toeten" if you don't have an umlaut, and can't use "o either.
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2015-05-22T14:52:43Z Xach: Which individual?
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2015-05-22T14:53:21Z flip214: there was an aryan_nation, and then some totensiediejuden...
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2015-05-22T14:53:36Z flip214: sorry, I'm ignoring join/leave here, so I can't tell whether they're gone already.
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2015-05-22T14:53:50Z flip214: sorry for the noise
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2015-05-22T14:54:43Z schjetne: Stil at it
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2015-05-22T14:55:18Z Xach: Who?
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2015-05-22T14:55:39Z schjetne: Xach: ~lnr@aim.engr.arizona.edu
2015-05-22T14:56:02Z schjetne: Hmm, that might be someone else
2015-05-22T14:56:07Z schjetne: with a misbehaving IRC client
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2015-05-22T14:56:27Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach
2015-05-22T14:57:08Z Xach has set mode -bb *!*man50@90.174.4.* *!*472d5372@*.71.45.83.114
2015-05-22T14:57:26Z Xach has set mode -o Xach
2015-05-22T14:57:30Z Xach: maybe it will go away by itself
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2015-05-22T15:02:35Z flip214: "time heals all wounds"
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2015-05-22T15:14:37Z pjb: flip214: time healed wound: http://tinyurl.com/time-healed-wound
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2015-05-22T15:39:15Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2015-05-22T15:40:33Z jackdaniel: hi beach
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2015-05-22T15:41:12Z beach: I am reading this page: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/initialization-of-generic-function-metaobjects.html
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2015-05-22T15:41:34Z beach: Specifically, at the end, under "Methods".
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2015-05-22T15:42:23Z beach: It seems the most reasonable way to implement initialization of generic function metaobjects would be to write an :AROUND method on SHARED-INITIALIZE.  Right?
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2015-05-22T16:10:44Z drmeister: How would you represent an n-dimensional array of 3d vectors (double precision) in CL?  An Nx3 specialized array of double-float?
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2015-05-22T16:12:17Z drmeister: Not an array of clos defined vectors right. The latter is a terrible idea.
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2015-05-22T16:13:15Z beach: drmeister: It really depends on the access patterns.
2015-05-22T16:13:52Z Zhivago: You may find that a flat vector and index computor works best.
2015-05-22T16:13:55Z beach: If you want to manipulate the 3d vectors and independent objects, you might want to make an (unspecialized) N-dimensional array containing specialized vectors.
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2015-05-22T16:16:17Z ggole: drmeister: a b c a b c ... or a a a ... b b b ... c c c ... are both reasonable depending on what you are doing
2015-05-22T16:16:45Z ggole: The latter makes it particularly easy to vectorise, say, matrix vector ops
2015-05-22T16:17:06Z failproofshark: yo
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2015-05-22T16:26:53Z pjb: drmeister: basically, the question is whether you have a need for the identity of those 3d vectors (are they mutable?).
2015-05-22T16:27:54Z pjb: drmeister: if you don't need identity then you can "inline" them into the n+3 dimentional array, this will spare storage and access time, notably if you specialize this array with some specific element-type.
2015-05-22T16:28:32Z pjb: drmeister: otherwise, the n dimensional array will contain pointers to 3d-vectors, however they are representated, which means more indirection and more storage pressure.
2015-05-22T16:29:20Z pjb: the nice thing is that this is lisp, therefore using the n+3 dimensional array can be as easy and fun as the other options, give the right functional and syntactic abstractions. (the right accessors and macros).
2015-05-22T16:32:34Z oGMo: you can even fake some degree of identity
2015-05-22T16:34:19Z oGMo: well, don't use a multidimensional array at all, use a flat array of length n*3 of course, then you can return displaced arrays as individual vectors, and even defstruct :type them for easy accessors
2015-05-22T16:35:21Z oGMo: you can't specialize on the result, but if you need that you can always make a simple 1-slot class
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2015-05-22T16:36:37Z pjb: oGMo: there's no point in using flat arrays in this case: the implementation will most certainly be better optimized in multidimensionnal accesses.
2015-05-22T16:36:43Z oGMo: pjb: no
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2015-05-22T16:36:45Z oGMo: it would not
2015-05-22T16:37:06Z pjb: You can use displaced arrays on multidimensional arrays.
2015-05-22T16:37:09Z pjb: There's no gain.
2015-05-22T16:37:30Z oGMo: there's almost never a good reason to use multidim arrays, since you can always displace something to that, and get the same thing, and it's almost always more expedient to have flat access
2015-05-22T16:38:13Z oGMo: since afaict they more or less must be implemented as flat arrays so you _can_ do displacement magic
2015-05-22T16:38:30Z H4ns: oGMo: do you know row-major-aref / array-row-major-index?
2015-05-22T16:38:42Z H4ns: oGMo: because it sounds as if you don't.  but i could be wrong.
2015-05-22T16:38:47Z oGMo: H4ns: how is that relevant?
2015-05-22T16:39:05Z pjb: oGMo: there's no point in re-implementing CL in CL. Use CL!
2015-05-22T16:39:21Z oGMo: pjb: also irrelevant
2015-05-22T16:39:26Z H4ns: oGMo: if gives you access to a flat version of any array
2015-05-22T16:39:38Z oGMo: the point is _most operations you want_ are easier to write in 1 dimension
2015-05-22T16:39:39Z pjb: oGMo: that's only because you don't see the irrelevance.
2015-05-22T16:40:06Z pjb: oGMo: you're like borg: irrelevant, resistance is futile.  Well, no, learn something resistance is useful and not irrelevant.
2015-05-22T16:40:22Z H4ns: oGMo: well, i don't want anything.  i just wanted to point out that if you need flat access to a multidimensional array, cl provides you with that.
2015-05-22T16:40:32Z oGMo: H4ns: yes, it's easy to get a flat array, i'm well aware .. the point is you almost always _want_ one, so just use one to begin with
2015-05-22T16:41:02Z H4ns: oGMo: please stop telling me what i want. enjoy your further discussion.
2015-05-22T16:41:20Z oGMo: "you" the general "you" :p
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2015-05-22T16:48:37Z drmeister: Thank you - those were a lot of very interesting approaches to representing arrays of 3D vectors.
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2015-05-22T18:17:18Z jasom: H4ns: one usage of "you" in english is comparable to the german "man"
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2015-05-22T18:49:17Z reb`: jasom: I'm certain H4ns understands the meaning of "you".
2015-05-22T18:49:37Z jackdaniel: can I force specific readtable for code put in one specific macro?
2015-05-22T18:49:56Z jackdaniel: so, let's say #G(bla bla) is valid only inside macro ABC
2015-05-22T18:52:37Z jackdaniel: what comes to my mind is to print body argument to string, and read it back from string
2015-05-22T18:52:40Z oGMo: jackdaniel: no
2015-05-22T18:52:53Z jackdaniel: but it feels like using left hand to take something from right pocket
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2015-05-22T18:53:13Z oGMo: you need to change the reader before the form is read somehow
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2015-05-22T18:59:03Z jackdaniel: the point is that I don't want readtable interfere with previous one outside of the macro
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2015-05-22T19:02:50Z oGMo: jackdaniel: yeah, i wish you could name a function for a symbol that got called at read time when it's in the function position, so basically you could do exactly what you want
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2015-05-22T19:14:06Z Fare: jasom: hey man!
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2015-05-22T19:22:38Z jackdaniel: oGMo: did it \o/ but with mentioned packet mangling
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2015-05-22T19:25:13Z jackdaniel: http://ix.io/iIy/common-lisp
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2015-05-22T19:25:51Z jackdaniel: s/packet/string/
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2015-05-22T19:28:35Z oGMo: jackdaniel: probably the least annoying (to type) way
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2015-05-22T19:29:56Z pjb: jackdaniel: as I told you yesterday, yes, it is perfectly possible (despite the naysayers like Xach or oGMo).
2015-05-22T19:30:20Z pjb: jackdaniel: just put your reader macro on #\( to detect when you are reading the ABC macro.
2015-05-22T19:30:38Z pjb: It is even TRIVIAL, as far as reader macros go.
2015-05-22T19:31:04Z jackdaniel: hm, that sounds even more hairy, but after a tought it will be more elegant
2015-05-22T19:31:20Z oGMo: in _all_ cases, you are stepping in _prior to the form being read_
2015-05-22T19:31:22Z pjb: jackdaniel: Please read: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/Ambitious.html
2015-05-22T19:31:53Z jackdaniel: I will, thanks
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2015-05-22T19:32:33Z pjb: jackdaniel: the hairy thing is that CL doesn't provide a way to read sexps, other than the standard reader macro bound to #\(, so you have to save it to implement yours correctly. (read-delimited-list cannot read dotted lists).
2015-05-22T19:32:53Z pjb: jackdaniel: but this is not a problem with reader macros, but with the lack of a CL primitive.
2015-05-22T19:33:08Z pjb: and unrelated CL primitive even.
2015-05-22T19:33:26Z jasom: Hi Fare
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2015-05-22T19:34:13Z jackdaniel: hm, but given I replace #\( - how do I detect if it's ABC without reading it? (I'm not sure if it's correct question even :p)
2015-05-22T19:34:30Z pjb: jackdaniel: obviously, you don't.  You do read it!
2015-05-22T19:34:44Z pjb: But first, peek to see if it's a possible symbol ahead.
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2015-05-22T19:35:25Z jackdaniel: yes, but if it's abc-tricked-you, then peeking is useless
2015-05-22T19:35:27Z pjb: Well, you just need to peek to check for ().
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2015-05-22T19:36:00Z pjb: with caveats such as (#|nil|#)  (;nil\n)
2015-05-22T19:39:02Z jackdaniel: funny, I've popped into this essay (ambitious evaluation) when I was first searching a web for cl
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2015-05-22T19:40:44Z pjb: jackdaniel: as long as you don't have to put a reader macro on all and each character, it's ok.
2015-05-22T19:41:38Z jackdaniel: what is ok? rebinding #\(
2015-05-22T19:41:40Z jackdaniel: ?
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2015-05-22T19:47:03Z pjb: jackdaniel: yes, being able to do what you want by binding a single reader macro show it's cool and nice.
2015-05-22T19:47:14Z pjb: shows
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2015-05-22T19:55:06Z Fare: does some cl library have deprecation support?
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2015-05-22T19:55:54Z Fare: i.e. simple wrappers around defun / defmethod that will issue style warning, warning, cerror, error, at compile-time and/or runtime, when some function is used.
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2015-05-22T20:05:49Z jackdaniel: Fare: i've encountered some lib which was printing warning on implementations, where some function wasn't implemented in lib
2015-05-22T20:06:01Z jackdaniel: pjb: yes, that's why I'm interested in it
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2015-05-22T20:06:41Z jackdaniel: Fare: https://github.com/rpav/cl-gendoc/pull/8/files
2015-05-22T20:06:55Z Fare: jackdaniel, thanks
2015-05-22T20:07:13Z Fare: not what I want, but that's a start
2015-05-22T20:07:34Z drmeister: Serialization in Common Lisp - how should I do it?  I need a protocol to serialize almost every kind of builtin object and CLOS classes.  These objects will have internal cycles that need to be recreated.
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2015-05-22T20:08:09Z Fare: I think I what a compiler-macro that will issue the style-warning / warning / cerror / error and otherwise be a NOP.
2015-05-22T20:08:24Z drmeister: Common Lisp printer/reader?   cl-store?  cl-conspack?
2015-05-22T20:08:24Z Fare: well, not a NOP when we've reached the ERROR stage.
2015-05-22T20:08:41Z axion: drmeister: cl-conspack is fast and flexible
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2015-05-22T20:09:19Z axion: i've had bad luck with cl-store over the years, though ymmv
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2015-05-22T20:09:34Z drmeister: axion: If I recall, cl-conspack has a lot of dependencies, including an FFI dependency - I can't handle FFI at the moment.
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2015-05-22T20:10:00Z oGMo: it does?
2015-05-22T20:10:11Z axion: truthfully i've only really used the 2 you mentioned, and much prefer the latter
2015-05-22T20:10:30Z oGMo: through trivial-streams maybe?
2015-05-22T20:11:03Z jackdaniel: Fare: I'm not sure what do you mean, but in cffi I've used construct like this https://github.com/cffi/cffi/commit/bb0d5466b8a0207c68f728d7ac638a2cb58e9e08
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2015-05-22T20:11:39Z drmeister: Is there a way to get the full list of dependencies of an ASDF system like cl-conspack?
2015-05-22T20:11:48Z oGMo: if conspack depends on something FFI i'd consider it a bug, i'm checking this out now heh
2015-05-22T20:12:09Z drmeister: oGMo: If it doesn't then I'll be very interested.
2015-05-22T20:12:14Z jackdaniel: good night all :)
2015-05-22T20:12:21Z drmeister: I don't have time at this point to implement full FFI
2015-05-22T20:12:28Z jackdaniel: pjb: thanks for poining me to ambitious evaluation article
2015-05-22T20:12:36Z oGMo: oooh the inferred static-vectors stuff probably uses CFFI
2015-05-22T20:12:55Z drmeister: oGMo: Yes, that sounds right.
2015-05-22T20:13:08Z oGMo: wait, clasp shouldn't load that, only specifically predefined lisps do
2015-05-22T20:13:24Z drmeister: Well, clasp looks like ECL - so maybe that's triggering it.
2015-05-22T20:13:24Z oGMo: ...do you have :ecl in *features*?
2015-05-22T20:13:37Z drmeister: Although I don't have :ecl in *features* anymore.
2015-05-22T20:13:49Z oGMo: you shouldn't trigger it then
2015-05-22T20:13:57Z drmeister: Hmmm, what does it use instead?
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2015-05-22T20:14:09Z oGMo: drmeister: nothing, you just don't get the static-vectors features
2015-05-22T20:14:18Z drmeister: Ok.
2015-05-22T20:14:39Z drmeister: oGMo: Are you involved in cl-conspack development?  Did we have this conversation sometime in the last three years?
2015-05-22T20:14:54Z oGMo: drmeister: probably, and yes i'm the one who wrote it heh
2015-05-22T20:15:03Z drmeister: Cool.  Ok.
2015-05-22T20:15:46Z oGMo: fast-io may or may not be fast for clasp, and it could definitely be _faster_, but it compared favorably to some of the json readers iirc
2015-05-22T20:15:55Z oGMo: cl-conspack that is
2015-05-22T20:16:17Z drmeister: So with cl-conspack I specialize "encode" and "decode" to read and generate an a-list that describes the object?
2015-05-22T20:16:39Z oGMo: drmeister: yes, and i added some macros for making that easy in the common cases
2015-05-22T20:16:49Z drmeister: I'll be doing it in C++ for many cases.
2015-05-22T20:18:15Z drmeister: I have a lot of complex C++ classes that are exposed as builtin molecular modeling classes to an extended version of Clasp.  I can write an "encode" and "decode" method for each of them and hook that into cl-conspack.
2015-05-22T20:18:19Z oGMo: yeah probably won't help with that, but should presumably still be simple
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2015-05-22T20:18:39Z drmeister: I've been preparing for this for years.
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2015-05-22T20:18:43Z oGMo: cool
2015-05-22T20:19:07Z drmeister: I have just exposed 3D vectors, 4x4 matrices and 3D coordinate arrays - they are my test case.
2015-05-22T20:19:19Z drmeister: If I can serialize them with cl-conspack then I have a way forward.
2015-05-22T20:20:54Z drmeister: Can you remind me, what does the a-list look like?  ( (unique-symbol . data ) ... ) ?
2015-05-22T20:21:15Z White_Flame: yes
2015-05-22T20:21:43Z oGMo: drmeister: yeah, pretty much anything you want .. if you have "very basic" types you best bet is probable '((nil . vector))
2015-05-22T20:22:11Z drmeister: How compact is it?   If I have a lot of ( ( 'x . 123.345) ('y . 212.231) ('z . 2823.21))  will I get hammered in terms of file size because of all the 'x 'y 'z in there?
2015-05-22T20:22:19Z oGMo: yes
2015-05-22T20:22:42Z oGMo: well, sortof, you could always index the symbols and spend no more than a byte per, but you'd be _way_ better off using a packed vector-of-type
2015-05-22T20:22:53Z Fare: is there a portable implementation of (style-warn ...) to issue a style warning?
2015-05-22T20:22:56Z drmeister: So ((nil . #(1.0 2.0 3.0))) would be better?
2015-05-22T20:23:19Z oGMo: e.g. ((nil . #(1.4 6.32 1.5))) where the vector is :element-type 'single-float or whatnot
2015-05-22T20:23:22Z oGMo: yeah
2015-05-22T20:23:35Z drmeister: Got it.
2015-05-22T20:23:36Z pjb: drmeister: well, it is just ridiculous to put cl:quote in your data sexps.
2015-05-22T20:23:49Z pjb: drmeister: you're lucky ridicule doesn't kill anymore.
2015-05-22T20:24:10Z Bike: Fare: warn?
2015-05-22T20:24:27Z drmeister: pjb: I'm immune to ridicule - the quote was a typo.
2015-05-22T20:24:29Z Bike: or do you mean a simple-style-warning sort of thing, i guess.
2015-05-22T20:25:23Z pjb: drmeister: then tagging sexps is not a bad idea: that makes the file format self explaining.  On the other hand, you may want to tag at a higher level: (3dpoint 123.456 212.231 2823.31)
2015-05-22T20:25:32Z Fare: Bike: warn with a subclass of style-warning?
2015-05-22T20:25:52Z Fare: Bike: yes, I suppose a simple-style-warning would help
2015-05-22T20:26:18Z oGMo: pjb: there's no real reason to "tag" in this case, the type is encapsulated by the format elsewhere, and a key is more or less irrelevant, and a NIL only costs a byte
2015-05-22T20:26:21Z Bike: i wrote https://github.com/Bike/compiler-macro/blob/master/condition.lisp a while ago, about half of it might be what you want
2015-05-22T20:27:10Z drmeister: oGMo: A vector is more compact than a list in cl-conspace - correct?  In other words, ( nil . #(1.0 2.0 3.0)) is better than (nil . ( 1.0 2.0 3.0 )) - correct?
2015-05-22T20:27:35Z oGMo: drmeister: not really, but cl-conspack isn't smart enough to figure out the element type of a list
2015-05-22T20:27:58Z oGMo: drmeister: and actually i guess that's a lie, a list needs to encode the final NIL, so it's an extra byte usually
2015-05-22T20:28:19Z drmeister: I'm going to give it a whirl.
2015-05-22T20:28:40Z oGMo: drmeister: note it will still be big if the vector's :element-type isn't one of a few predefined things
2015-05-22T20:28:47Z drmeister: First I'll write encode/decode for my new classes and then load cl-conspack and try to serialize and deserialize with it.
2015-05-22T20:28:49Z oGMo: via array-element-type or whatnot
2015-05-22T20:29:14Z oGMo: cool, let me know if you run into any issues of course; if i'm not here i should see something filed
2015-05-22T20:29:34Z drmeister: Right now I don't have specialized arrays.  So my array-element-type may always be T - is that an immediate problem?
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2015-05-22T20:30:02Z oGMo: drmeister: well, you'll still get valid encode/decode, it just won't be as efficient as possible
2015-05-22T20:30:09Z drmeister: I'm not too worried about file size at this point.  Things will get better.  I just don't want to keep rewriting code.
2015-05-22T20:30:21Z oGMo: yeah
2015-05-22T20:30:44Z drmeister: I mean - I want to settle on how to represent objects and then optimize later.
2015-05-22T20:31:29Z oGMo: sure .. should be easy enough to change later
2015-05-22T20:32:00Z drmeister: The idea of encoding/decoding every object as an a-list is pretty general.
2015-05-22T20:32:02Z oGMo: as long as your code doesn't depend on an array of fixed type being returned, you could load either transparently
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2015-05-22T20:32:18Z drmeister: I will keep that in mind.
2015-05-22T20:33:19Z drmeister: CLOS class instances and hash tables are taken care of by cl-conspack - correct?
2015-05-22T20:33:58Z oGMo: drmeister: i'm not sure what you mean
2015-05-22T20:34:26Z drmeister: Hmm, hang on - I'm not sure what I mean either.
2015-05-22T20:34:35Z drmeister: I was hoping you would.
2015-05-22T20:34:41Z oGMo: cl-conspack does no real magic and assumes nothing other than "you can specialize on it" .. what you encode and how you decode are entirely up to you
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2015-05-22T20:35:36Z oGMo: it does nothing like looking at slots via MOP or assuming standard-object etc
2015-05-22T20:35:50Z drmeister: I see - I need to specialize conspack:encode and conspack:decode for any CLOS class that I want to serialize.
2015-05-22T20:36:03Z oGMo: right
2015-05-22T20:36:15Z drmeister: That was what I was asking about re CLOS classes.
2015-05-22T20:36:21Z drmeister: Hash-tables on the other hand...
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2015-05-22T20:37:32Z oGMo: hash-tables conspack handles, and even handles some :test as properties now, but it's probably not excessively extensive (e.g. no :weakness, though it would be easy to add)
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2015-05-22T20:37:47Z drmeister: If I (encode ht) --> some representation of the hash table ht
2015-05-22T20:37:51Z oGMo: right
2015-05-22T20:38:14Z drmeister: Got it.  I don't need weakness.
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2015-05-22T20:38:52Z drmeister: cl-conspack needs weak-key hash-tables to operate - correct?
2015-05-22T20:39:47Z oGMo: drmeister: yes though if you forego circularity detection and support the syntax, it may not be strictly necessary to have them implemented
2015-05-22T20:39:54Z oGMo: er
2015-05-22T20:40:01Z drmeister: Or rather, what does cl-conspack need from trivial-garbage?
2015-05-22T20:40:05Z oGMo: yeah pretty sure
2015-05-22T20:40:43Z oGMo: drmeister: just :weakness :key hashes
2015-05-22T20:40:46Z drmeister: I haven't added support for finalizers - but I have everything else.
2015-05-22T20:40:54Z drmeister: Good, you didn't say finalizers.
2015-05-22T20:41:00Z oGMo: hah yeah
2015-05-22T20:42:14Z drmeister: I've been working towards this for a long time.  I added weak pointers/associations/hash-tables over a year ago for source code tracking and cl-conspack.
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2015-05-22T20:43:44Z KommandoFreisler: heil! 0/
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2015-05-22T20:58:58Z flip214: Xach: ^^
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2015-05-22T21:31:44Z dim: mmm, #<THREAD "main thread" RUNNING {1002D26E93}>: :ASCII stream decoding error on #<SB-SYS:FD-STREAM for "file /Users/dim/dev/pgloader/build/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/quri-20150407-git/data/effective_tld_names.dat" {1008F92313}>: the octet sequence #(195) cannot be decoded.
2015-05-22T21:31:56Z dim: that's happening from ql:quickload'ing quri
2015-05-22T21:32:10Z dim: should I blame my local LANG settings or quri?
2015-05-22T21:33:02Z dim: ok, LANG=en_US.UTF-8 make, and now it's compiling successfully
2015-05-22T21:33:46Z dim: (I didn't find another lib that exposes an url-decode-params function)
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2015-05-22T21:49:33Z Fare: dim: quri is probably wrong if this happens at build time.
2015-05-22T21:49:59Z dim: it does :(
2015-05-22T21:50:16Z dim: and asdf is the messenger here
2015-05-22T21:50:31Z dim: so I guess it's missing proper encoding declarations for asdf to use?
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2015-05-22T21:59:11Z drmeister: oGMo - are you still online?
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2015-05-22T21:59:16Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/ghGFct3U
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2015-05-22T22:00:11Z drmeister: This is an enhanced version of Clasp that has 3D vectors "ovector3" as well as other geometry classes.
2015-05-22T22:00:37Z pjb: why don't they print as #.(ovector3 1 2 3) ?
2015-05-22T22:00:45Z drmeister: It encodes the ovector3 as an a-list (nil . vector) as you suggested
2015-05-22T22:01:00Z drmeister: pjb: That's not what I'm going for.
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2015-05-22T22:01:11Z drmeister: I want to serialize these in very complex data structures.
2015-05-22T22:01:11Z Fare: is there a (portable) way to undefine a compiler-macro?
2015-05-22T22:01:16Z Fare: a way on sbcl?
2015-05-22T22:01:25Z pjb: define-compiler-macro
2015-05-22T22:01:30Z pjb: oh, undefine.
2015-05-22T22:01:37Z pjb: You can define it as doing nothing.
2015-05-22T22:01:39Z Fare: dim: asdf uses utf-8 for the source it compiles
2015-05-22T22:01:46Z Fare: but this isn't source code asdf compiles
2015-05-22T22:02:16Z Fare: whoever is processing this data file ought to specify the proper external-format
2015-05-22T22:02:23Z pjb: (define-compiler-macro fun (&whole form &rest args) form)
2015-05-22T22:02:29Z Fare: such as uiop:*utf-8-external-format*
2015-05-22T22:03:15Z Fare: pjb: I suppose that works.
2015-05-22T22:03:24Z dim: yeah, too tired to consider sending a bugreport to quri just now
2015-05-22T22:03:32Z dim: done with the batch of bugfixes for pgloader for the day
2015-05-22T22:03:33Z Fare: and is there a good way to detect that there is a compiler-macro?
2015-05-22T22:03:34Z pjb: Fare: actually, you should do (setf (compiler-macro-function fun [env]) nil)
2015-05-22T22:03:35Z Ralt: hello
2015-05-22T22:03:57Z pjb: s/fun/name/
2015-05-22T22:04:10Z dim: have fun! ;-)
2015-05-22T22:04:23Z pjb: (compiler-macro-function name [env]) returns nil if there's none.
2015-05-22T22:04:38Z Ralt: hm
2015-05-22T22:04:51Z Ralt: is there a way to get quickdocs locally, to see what output it'll give?
2015-05-22T22:05:00Z Fare hesitates about doing that or assuming I don't need to undo previous compiler-macros
2015-05-22T22:05:06Z Ralt: so that I can make sure my docstrings are fine
2015-05-22T22:05:19Z pjb:   you can use it to wrap compiler macros.
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2015-05-22T22:12:14Z Fare: when obsoleting a function, my plan is to 1- issue style-warning until next minor version, 2- issue full warning until next minor version, 3- issue cerror until next minor version, 4- issue error until next minor version, 5- remove the function altogether
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2015-05-22T22:12:45Z Fare: is it OK to issue style-warning and warning at every function call, or should I issue it only once?
2015-05-22T22:14:43Z Fare: I should probably reset the notification status when the function is redefined.
2015-05-22T22:16:03Z pjb: It would be nicer to do it once per call at compilation time, and only once at run-time.
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2015-05-22T22:25:57Z Fare: pjb: right.
2015-05-22T22:26:10Z amokr: I'm not certain why setf getf combination doesn't work in a function like: http://paste.lisp.org/+36MA
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2015-05-22T22:35:34Z Fare: does it make sense to go through the cerror phase, or should I just jump directly from warning to error?
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2015-05-22T23:03:26Z Fare: I should I make all my errors continuable until I remove the function?
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2015-05-22T23:44:28Z coetry: http://www.isi.edu/isd/LOOM/PowerLoom/download.html
2015-05-22T23:44:36Z coetry: PowerLoom® Knowledge Representation & Reasoning System :)
2015-05-22T23:45:15Z coetry: sexiness from the past
2015-05-22T23:45:30Z coetry: nitro_idiot_ whatsup 8arrow!
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2015-05-23T03:14:14Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-05-23T03:18:53Z Oladon: Morning beach :)
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2015-05-23T03:21:56Z theos: hey
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2015-05-23T03:41:22Z Fare: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/commits/obsolete-function-warnings
2015-05-23T03:42:12Z Fare: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/compare/master...obsolete-function-warnings
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2015-05-23T03:51:02Z beach: Today I am re-reading the page about initialization of class metaobjects: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/initialization-of-class-metaobjects2.html and it turns out that it says the same as the page on initialization of generic function metaobjects with respect to constraints on portable programs.
2015-05-23T03:51:47Z beach: So it looks like for both those metaobjects, initialization is best done with auxiliary methods on SHARED-INITIALIZE.
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2015-05-23T03:53:11Z drmeister: Hello
2015-05-23T03:53:15Z beach: I must have read those pages several times in the past, without understanding the consequences.
2015-05-23T03:53:22Z beach: Hello drmeister.
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2015-05-23T04:01:12Z kami`: Good morning.
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2015-05-23T04:05:05Z beach: Hello kami.
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2015-05-23T04:25:11Z coetry: I don't understand how to use this library, can someone kindly make a quick example with a real http request/response cycle and post a link to the gist?
2015-05-23T04:25:14Z coetry: https://github.com/fukamachi/fast-http
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2015-05-23T04:38:21Z steeve: Hey guys - learning common lisp here.... why does    (eq '(1 2 3 4 5) (list 1 2 3 4 5)) evaluate to nil
2015-05-23T04:38:21Z steeve: both of those forms look like they evaluate to the same thing
2015-05-23T04:38:21Z steeve: in the repl
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2015-05-23T04:59:08Z coetry: steeve try (equal '(1 2 3 4 5) (list 1 2 3 4 5))
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2015-05-23T04:59:17Z beach: He left.
2015-05-23T04:59:39Z coetry: damn
2015-05-23T04:59:42Z coetry: :(
2015-05-23T05:00:12Z coetry: why didn't anyone help him? thats such an easy thing to help with and now he has a bad taste about the lisp community
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2015-05-23T05:00:32Z beach: I was working.  He didn't stick around for very long.
2015-05-23T05:00:56Z coetry: hmm, i hope he finds his way, and i hope he still comes back
2015-05-23T05:01:00Z beach: Also, it is late in America, and Saturday morning in Yerp.  Not many people around.
2015-05-23T05:01:16Z coetry: true, true, point heard, i guess caffiene changes time perspective ;)
2015-05-23T05:01:28Z coetry: im in Houston btw
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2015-05-23T05:01:50Z beach: So it's midnight?  Or 23:00?
2015-05-23T05:01:58Z coetry: yeah midnight
2015-05-23T05:02:27Z coetry: beach, do you have any experience with fast-http?
2015-05-23T05:02:35Z beach: Nope.  Sorry.
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2015-05-23T05:02:55Z coetry: no problem, i tweeted the author, but he lives in japan, so i'll have to wait till tomorrow or something
2015-05-23T05:03:11Z beach: He should be awake now.
2015-05-23T05:03:18Z beach: But maybe he is out partying.
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2015-05-23T05:03:35Z coetry: lol he doesn't strike me as the party type, he's a pretty passionate lisp dev
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2015-05-23T05:03:47Z coetry: 8arrow fukamachi, im sure he's spending his weekend hacking
2015-05-23T05:03:52Z beach: coetry: If you had come to ELS this year, you would have met him.
2015-05-23T05:04:11Z coetry: dudddeeee, that's sick, i might actually go next year honestly
2015-05-23T05:04:13Z beach: He seems happily married.
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2015-05-23T05:04:27Z beach: His wife was there too.
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2015-05-23T05:04:48Z coetry: i would love to engage and meet members of the lisp community in person, i want to revive it in the younger generation, a lot of classy hackers sort of dominate it now
2015-05-23T05:04:50Z beach: You should go.  Next year, it's in Krakow.
2015-05-23T05:05:04Z coetry: how much are tickets?
2015-05-23T05:05:16Z Quadrescence: come to the Seattle Lisp meetings. ;)
2015-05-23T05:05:27Z beach: Quadrescence: That's just as far. :)
2015-05-23T05:05:49Z beach: coetry: It varies a lot.  Hard to say.
2015-05-23T05:05:55Z coetry: ohhh Seattle lisp meetings sounds like a plan! great coffee and code :)
2015-05-23T05:06:00Z Quadrescence: http://photos3.meetupstatic.com/photos/event/5/a/0/8/highres_437063048.jpeg
2015-05-23T05:06:02Z Quadrescence: ;)
2015-05-23T05:06:18Z Quadrescence: http://www.meetup.com/Lisp-Seattle/
2015-05-23T05:06:45Z coetry: dang only 7, thats expected though, im sure a great 7 individuals
2015-05-23T05:06:45Z beach: Quadrescence: Great initiative!
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2015-05-23T05:07:05Z Quadrescence: coetry, the previous had 17 :)
2015-05-23T05:07:10Z coetry: now question: what will it take to get common lisp "common" among the future generation of hackers?
2015-05-23T05:07:22Z Quadrescence: write applications with it
2015-05-23T05:07:28Z coetry: like i want people to actively develope libraries and such, we can't possibly port everything on our own
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2015-05-23T05:07:38Z beach: coetry: It beats when I was in Auckland.  There were around 3 lispers inside a radius defined by a 3 hour flight. :)
2015-05-23T05:07:39Z coetry: ahhh i see, if we make an amazing app, people will become inspired
2015-05-23T05:07:55Z coetry: hmmmm, im 20 btw
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2015-05-23T05:08:36Z coetry: all my friends who ask me about programming and for help in teaching them, i don't teach them python, ruby, or anything else, i crack open SICP and enlighten them on their path to becoming a hacker
2015-05-23T05:08:56Z Quadrescence: just don't forget to crack open emacs too
2015-05-23T05:08:59Z coetry: they can learn the other stuff later and on their own, but they deserve a pure foundation
2015-05-23T05:09:14Z coetry: oh thats essential, emacs is integral to lisp culture
2015-05-23T05:09:31Z beach goes back to his bootstrapping code. 
2015-05-23T05:11:00Z coetry: M-x geiser-mode does the trick
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2015-05-23T05:18:34Z theos: coetry we need to write awesome software in CL to make it popular
2015-05-23T05:18:48Z theos: pure CL. no other language.
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2015-05-23T05:23:24Z Fare: Quadrescence, are you using protobufs?
2015-05-23T05:23:49Z Quadrescence: Well, considering, yes
2015-05-23T05:24:17Z Quadrescence: but I have been very turned off by the fact protobufs doesn't have an official grammar, and as has been discovered, the CL version is not very well maintained
2015-05-23T05:26:27Z Fare: yeah
2015-05-23T05:26:38Z coetry: theos, agreed
2015-05-23T05:26:39Z Fare: Robert Brown's protobuf may or may not be better maintained
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2015-05-23T05:27:15Z Fare: if you like grammars, try piqi
2015-05-23T05:27:24Z Fare: also in the genre, cap'n'proto
2015-05-23T05:28:36Z Quadrescence: I used thrift a lot (which has a grammar) so I am evaluating that too
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2015-05-23T06:26:00Z jackdaniel: good morning
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2015-05-23T06:31:34Z beach: Hello jackdaniel
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2015-05-23T06:53:26Z oleo_: morning
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2015-05-23T06:54:03Z Shinmera: Fare: You might want to ask scymtym about protobuf once he's online. It's used extensively in one of his job projects.
2015-05-23T06:55:13Z coetry: goodmorning
2015-05-23T06:55:18Z jackdaniel: o/
2015-05-23T06:55:50Z coetry: jackdaniel, i should probably say goodnight, because im about to go to bed, but i wish you a good morning as i retire for the night
2015-05-23T06:55:59Z coetry: zzz
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2015-05-23T06:56:13Z JamesRichards: white power
2015-05-23T06:56:28Z jackdaniel: heh
2015-05-23T06:56:34Z Fare: Shinmera: robert brown's library?
2015-05-23T06:56:56Z Fare: jackdaniel: did you see my deprecation library?
2015-05-23T06:56:57Z Shinmera: Fare: I forget which one he's using, sorry.
2015-05-23T06:57:24Z Fare: np
2015-05-23T06:57:42Z Fare tries to get lispers to review his deprecation support in https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/compare/master...obsolete-function-warnings
2015-05-23T06:58:16Z Fare: (mostly version.lisp)
2015-05-23T06:58:21Z beach: Fare: You should have said that when you gave the link.  Giving links without saying what it is about is spammer behavior.
2015-05-23T06:59:19Z Fare: sorry
2015-05-23T06:59:21Z jackdaniel looks at it right now
2015-05-23T06:59:53Z JamesRichards: what's an obsolete fucktion warning?
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2015-05-23T07:01:08Z Fare: a warning about someone using a deprecated function
2015-05-23T07:01:22Z beach: Fare: Don't.
2015-05-23T07:01:51Z Fare: so if I declare (with-deprecation (:style-warning) (defun foo (x) (1+ x))) then at compile-time and at first runtime use you'll get a style-warning.
2015-05-23T07:01:59Z Fare: beach: don't what?
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2015-05-23T07:03:13Z Fare: then I can use (version-deprecation *asdf-version* :style-warning "3.1") to get a style-warning while in the 3.1 series, then a full warning in the 3.2 series, an error in the 3.3 series, and no more function in the 3.4 series.
2015-05-23T07:03:43Z beach: Fare: Nice!
2015-05-23T07:04:27Z jackdaniel: sounds like a nice idea
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2015-05-23T07:08:50Z jackdaniel: Fare: will error provide restart "ignore" ?
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2015-05-23T07:09:37Z jackdaniel: oh, there is
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2015-05-23T07:11:01Z Bike: having the numbers more organized sounds nice. sbcl has things that have been deprecated since 2007
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2015-05-23T07:12:28Z Fare: jackdaniel: it's a CERROR
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2015-05-23T07:12:39Z jackdaniel: yes, that's why I corrected myself, sorry
2015-05-23T07:12:39Z jackdaniel: ;p
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2015-05-23T07:15:44Z jackdaniel: pjb: but rebinded macro character #\( will be required to be that way in each package I want to use locally scoped syntax, not only in my package, right? Are there any caveats of re-reading with read-from-string?
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2015-05-23T07:24:11Z Fare: now that, two years later, every implementation has asdf3, I can recommend that everyone should actively stop supporting asdf2.
2015-05-23T07:27:49Z jackdaniel: given quicklisp will force asdf3 when absent on implementation it sounds even more reasonable to obsolete asdf2
2015-05-23T07:29:27Z jackdaniel: Fare: I remember reading from cl-launch supports shared fasl's, to speed up things when used in scripts - does it work transparently on each implementation, or it is something you have to turn on
2015-05-23T07:29:31Z jackdaniel: ?
2015-05-23T07:29:40Z jackdaniel: from your post, that cl-launch.. °
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2015-05-23T07:37:52Z beach: Hmm.  Is it really reasonable to require that the :NAME keyword argument be supplied when a slot-definition metaobject is reinitialized?
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2015-05-23T07:41:14Z jackdaniel: if it is consistent with normal definition then it would make sense
2015-05-23T07:41:52Z Fare: jackdaniel, not specifically cl-launch
2015-05-23T07:42:01Z beach: I am thinking that it would be common to want to reinitialize the initform or the initfunction, or the documentation without changing the name.
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2015-05-23T07:42:34Z Fare: jackdaniel, asdf3 has generalized ecl's load-fasl-op feature
2015-05-23T07:43:08Z Fare: that was kind of the proof of the new design
2015-05-23T07:43:25Z jackdaniel: Fare: so it works transparently?
2015-05-23T07:43:28Z Fare: beach: the name of what?
2015-05-23T07:43:39Z Fare: jackdaniel: not sure what you mean "transparently"
2015-05-23T07:43:42Z Fare: it's not the default
2015-05-23T07:43:59Z Fare: It was the default, briefly, for ECL, but I disabled it because of some weird ecl bug
2015-05-23T07:44:07Z Fare: dunno if the bug is still there
2015-05-23T07:44:22Z beach: Fare: Of a slot-definition metaobject.
2015-05-23T07:45:00Z Fare: oh wait, I got confused between two different features
2015-05-23T07:45:00Z jackdaniel: is it in asdf3 documentation how to enable it? How many implementations are supported?
2015-05-23T07:45:58Z Fare: cl-launch has always cached fasl's, in the way of common-lisp-controller, and the feature has been made part of asdf2. If that's what you mean by "shared fasl"...
2015-05-23T07:47:11Z Fare: if you mean "shared image", that's the new feature, wherein your compile everything into an image, and then can reuse the same large binary for all your scripts
2015-05-23T07:47:19Z Fare: see my fare-scripts repo
2015-05-23T07:47:32Z jackdaniel: yes, I mean "shared image"
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2015-05-23T07:48:45Z Fare: so yes, that's new, and it basically reuses the same principle as cl-buildapp, except in a portable way
2015-05-23T07:48:48Z jackdaniel: fare-scripts here https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/u/frideau ? I can't find a thing
2015-05-23T07:49:01Z Fare: a "multi-call binary" in the genre of busybox
2015-05-23T07:49:17Z Fare: git@github.com:fare/fare-scripts.git
2015-05-23T07:49:18Z jackdaniel: oh, ok, that clariefies my vision of a thing
2015-05-23T07:49:49Z Fare: see the documentation for cl-launch 4.1.3
2015-05-23T07:49:56Z jackdaniel: I will
2015-05-23T07:49:57Z Fare: which should also be on cliki
2015-05-23T07:50:37Z jackdaniel: but this bug - if you remind yourself how to trigger it please let me know
2015-05-23T07:51:20Z jackdaniel: I've got to go, have a nice day! :)
2015-05-23T07:51:55Z Fare: it was with load-fasl-op
2015-05-23T07:52:23Z Fare: I believe asdf/test/test-bundle.script knows how to trigger it
2015-05-23T07:52:32Z Fare: or maybe a variant of it would.
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2015-05-23T10:08:14Z beach: Hmm.  Bootstrapping SICL with SBCL is going to take some heap space.  I am only at phase 2 (out of at least 4) and I just ran out of heap at 6GB.
2015-05-23T10:09:04Z beach: Oh, never mind.  I think I know what the problem is.
2015-05-23T10:10:26Z beach: In each iteration, I compile a bunch of functions and bind them to global GENSYMs in the host environment.  Once the boot process is finalized, I will only do one iteration, but during development, I do dozens of them every day.
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2015-05-23T10:14:07Z beach: Too bad the typical bootstrapping host won't have first-class global environments.  If it did, I could just ditch the entire environment after bootstrapping.  Oh, well.
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2015-05-23T10:26:24Z francogrex: look this is nice: http://paste.lisp.org/display/148560
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2015-05-23T10:35:10Z White_Flame: francogrex: ffi-based?
2015-05-23T10:35:21Z White_Flame: ah, "loving JNI" at top
2015-05-23T10:35:21Z francogrex: yes cffi
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2015-05-23T10:45:14Z pjb: jackdaniel: *readtable* is unrelated to package.
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2015-05-23T12:03:43Z whiteline: you can typecheck a value against a stored type specifier during runtime using typep, but what if you want to validate the type specifier before you store it?
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2015-05-23T12:05:00Z pjb: whiteline: there's no operator to validate type specifiers.
2015-05-23T12:05:08Z pjb: whiteline: you could write a partial one.
2015-05-23T12:05:12Z White_Flame: maybe (subtypep type t)?
2015-05-23T12:05:24Z White_Flame: as a smoke test
2015-05-23T12:05:28Z pjb: whiteline: some implementation accept any symbol as a (unknown yet) type name
2015-05-23T12:05:32Z Fare: jackdaniel, make t l=ecl t=test-xach-update-bug.script -- it works if I leave the second form commented out, it fails if I uncomment it.
2015-05-23T12:05:49Z Fare: jackdaniel: that's for reproducing the load-bundle-op bug
2015-05-23T12:07:12Z whiteline: pjb: that makes sense. i guess i could hack around it if i required an example value when defining a stored type
2015-05-23T12:07:40Z pjb: whiteline: talk to beach, he has the same problem writing sicl.
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2015-05-23T12:08:29Z pjb: prototype values might be harder to come by, for some types.
2015-05-23T12:08:34Z pjb: Also, remember satisfies.
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2015-05-23T12:14:28Z beach: whiteline: How much validation do you want to do?  Just that it has the right shape, or that it actually defines an existing valid type?
2015-05-23T12:15:07Z whiteline: that it actually defines a valid type, at the moment of validation
2015-05-23T12:15:39Z beach: That can become quite tricky because there is no portable way of expanding type specifiers that name types defined by DEFTYPE etc.
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2015-05-23T12:17:04Z whiteline: the data being validated is mostly atomic and conses with a few lists. it is an entity-component system, so storing complex structured data as components would go against the model
2015-05-23T12:17:49Z whiteline: more complex data is referenced indirectly as a separate entity
2015-05-23T12:18:15Z beach: Are you now talking about the data having the type you want to validate, or are you taking about the type itself?
2015-05-23T12:19:21Z whiteline: every time a component is set or updated, the name of the component is checked against a table of types. if the stored type doesn't match the name, it fails.
2015-05-23T12:19:37Z whiteline: an entity is merely a hash table of strings to values
2015-05-23T12:21:42Z whiteline: typechecking the component values would be an ideal way to prevent the system from entering weird states, and this does work, but for extra rigidity i'd like to check that the type specifiers are valid too
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2015-05-23T12:23:11Z beach: The problem I am talking about happens when the user defines a type.  For example, if the user defines the type FOO to be an alias for CONS, and then tries to store the type  (FOO NUMBER LIST), there is no portable way of expanding FOO.
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2015-05-23T12:24:46Z whiteline: so basically i'd have to restrict the types to a subset of pre-defined types?
2015-05-23T12:26:24Z beach: I fear that's true.  As people pointed out, some implementation do not complain when undefined types are used in SUBTYPEP.  Otherwise, there might have been a technique based on that.
2015-05-23T12:27:30Z whiteline: ah well, i think it'll work out. after all, the data is simple
2015-05-23T12:27:48Z beach: Now, every implementation has a way of expanding that type, so you could use an implementation-specific technique.
2015-05-23T12:28:47Z whiteline: http://pastebin.com/RtDKLqkR is what i have now, i'll just add a check against a fixed table of symbols -> type specifiers
2015-05-23T12:29:22Z whiteline: i'm using SBCL, i understand it has some extensions based on the CMUCL heritage
2015-05-23T12:30:55Z beach: whiteline: I am not talking about any extension.  I am just talking about the fact that the implementation itself must be able to expand user-defined types.  You could use the same method that the implementation uses.
2015-05-23T12:31:21Z whiteline: ahhh
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2015-05-23T12:44:30Z whiteline: i guess i can typecheck nil against the type specifier and then catch the eventual exception, but SBCL implements it as a simple-error instead of something more specific so i'd have to check the error string and that's very implementation-dependent.
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2015-05-23T13:27:11Z Shinmera: whiteline: For what it's worth, on SBCL you can use SB-EXT:TYPEXPAND/-1/-ALL
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2015-05-23T13:36:49Z beach: whiteline: Minor nit: In Common Lisp we don't "catch exceptions", we "handle signals".
2015-05-23T13:37:16Z whiteline: 3
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2015-05-23T13:38:23Z beach: whiteline: What Shinmera is suggesting is exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned an implementation-specific mechanism.
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2015-05-23T13:39:05Z Shinmera: whiteline: Also, pastebin is less than stellar for lisp pastes, using http://paste.lisp.org or http://plaster.tymoon.eu would be preferred in the future.
2015-05-23T13:39:31Z Shinmera: beach: I thought I recalled someone writing a wrapper library for this stuff, but I couldn't find anything about it anymore, sadly.
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2015-05-23T13:40:08Z beach: Oh?  TRIVIAL-TYPE-EXPAND?
2015-05-23T13:40:23Z beach is joking.
2015-05-23T13:40:27Z Shinmera: Something like that.
2015-05-23T13:40:37Z beach: That's a good idea, actually.
2015-05-23T13:40:42Z Shinmera: Either way, there's nothing of the sort in quicklisp, so if it exists it's not yet published.
2015-05-23T13:40:58Z Shinmera: Or buried in some other library.
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2015-05-23T13:42:54Z Shinmera would like a library that offers access to inferred types.
2015-05-23T13:43:04Z beach: whiteline: We seem to have a mission for you.  Either find this library or write it.
2015-05-23T13:45:37Z whiteline: i will experiment with SB-EXT:TYPEXPAND and see where it leads me
2015-05-23T13:46:28Z beach: Good plan.
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2015-05-23T13:49:06Z beach: Here is an interesting project for some interested Lispers: A group of people decided to write "mailpile", a new email client that resembles gmail as far as the interface goes (See https://www.mailpile.is/).  It is written in Python + JavaScript + HTML5.  I am thinking that this is an ideal application for a very simple Common Lisp program with a very simple web server (Hunchentoot) and an interface based on HTML.
2015-05-23T13:50:04Z beach: It would be especially interesting to compare the result to mailpile when it comes to performance and code quality.
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2015-05-23T13:53:31Z Shinmera: Do we really need /yet another/ email client
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2015-05-23T13:54:37Z beach: Do we already have one?
2015-05-23T13:54:46Z Shinmera: I don't mean in CL, I mean in general.
2015-05-23T13:54:57Z beach: Then, yes, we need one in Common Lisp.
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2015-05-23T14:12:31Z theos: do people still use emails?
2015-05-23T14:13:16Z Shinmera: I'd like to write more emails with friends, actually.
2015-05-23T14:13:28Z Shinmera: Or letters, but that actually costs something.
2015-05-23T14:13:47Z theos: or just go visit them in person
2015-05-23T14:13:53Z Shinmera: That's even more costly.
2015-05-23T14:14:08Z Shinmera: Plus, I don't have the time to fly all over the world all the time.
2015-05-23T14:15:13Z theos: should have chosen local friends? or make new ones who are local. or email looks like a good idea :) yes we need an email client in CL!
2015-05-23T14:15:35Z Shinmera: I do have local friends, but those are too busy to hang out.
2015-05-23T14:16:26Z White_Flame: of course people still use email
2015-05-23T14:17:02Z White_Flame: too many IM & social media options, especially when it comes to sending files, makes email the best common option
2015-05-23T14:17:03Z isBEKaml: theos: so what's the more "modern" alternative to emails? :-)
2015-05-23T14:17:21Z White_Flame: and it's letter-oriented, not conversation oriented, so good for business
2015-05-23T14:17:58Z theos: isBEKaml thats the wrong question. modern doesnt mean that you stop visiting people :) its a term abused and misused so much
2015-05-23T14:18:01Z White_Flame: it's also the best way to accept communication from unknown people
2015-05-23T14:18:43Z Shinmera is also thankful for the couple of bug reports and inquiries about his libraries that he received over email.
2015-05-23T14:19:30Z theos: in my experience, if you stop visiting people, all relationships come to an end no matter how many letters or emails you send them. unless ofcourse you are giving them money
2015-05-23T14:20:10Z isBEKaml: theos: well, you did ask if people still use email
2015-05-23T14:20:12Z White_Flame: keeping up with social contacts is fine via social media (hence the name), but that doesn't obsolete email
2015-05-23T14:20:48Z isBEKaml: theos: since email is a modern communication - so I asked what's the "more modern" alternative to email :-)
2015-05-23T14:21:05Z Shinmera: theos: I've talked to internet people on an almost daily basis over many years. Longer than the average for my local friends.
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2015-05-23T14:24:35Z theos: isBEKaml email is very old. older than my first computer :P "modern" would be whatsapp or something. there was kik if it still exists
2015-05-23T14:25:40Z theos: anyway, more software in CL sounds good.
2015-05-23T14:26:45Z White_Flame: I don't think IM systems and email systems are quite in the same class of utility
2015-05-23T14:26:58Z White_Flame: though yes, any distinction can be greyed
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2015-05-23T14:47:01Z schjetne: beach: for email I'd rather have something as far from Gmail as possible
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2015-05-23T14:47:59Z schjetne: It doesn't seem to have any concept of quoting, everything is just one giant top-post
2015-05-23T14:48:45Z schjetne: I'd rather have something for the desktop, perhaps replacing Gnus
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2015-05-23T14:51:56Z schjetne: That said, I like the Mailpile initiative. IIRC I saw Smári McCarthy talk about it at FSCONS in Gothenburg a couple of years ago.
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2015-05-23T14:55:26Z pjb: email is as old as multi-user interactive systems.  Older if you consider telex and telegraph.
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2015-05-23T14:57:15Z pjb: email is older than 1971, the first network email.  Before that, there were mailboxes on multi-user systems.
2015-05-23T14:57:30Z White_Flame: any email replacement that doesn't include anonymity over darknets is imo not a valid direction
2015-05-23T14:57:52Z White_Flame: given the nuisances of tracking and privacy that email currently rests on
2015-05-23T14:57:56Z pjb: 1961: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Email#Host-based_mail_systems
2015-05-23T14:58:34Z pjb: White_Flame: you want both, anonymity, authentification, encryption, etc.
2015-05-23T14:58:43Z White_Flame: yep
2015-05-23T14:59:04Z White_Flame: and since systems are already built for such, services should be built on them
2015-05-23T15:01:24Z pjb: anonymity is really hard to achieve, given the possibility of information correlation.
2015-05-23T15:01:44Z White_Flame: sure
2015-05-23T15:01:55Z White_Flame: but again, external systems already exist which are working on such
2015-05-23T15:02:38Z theos: a search engine in CL would be awesome too
2015-05-23T15:02:40Z White_Flame: every so often, some joe blow shows up on tech news sites promoting a new privacy service built on their own custom routing, but why bother when Tor, I2P, and FreeNet exist?
2015-05-23T15:03:26Z pjb: Because of information correlation, Tor doesn't provide anonymity.  I don't know about the others, but I doubt they do.
2015-05-23T15:03:52Z pjb: Again, how are you accessing the Internet? Thru ISP.  ISP are corporations.  Therefore they are who pays for the spies.
2015-05-23T15:03:58Z pjb: (mostly).
2015-05-23T15:04:26Z pjb: Even if some engineers in some corporations resist, corporations still have to follow the laws they paid (lobbied) for.
2015-05-23T15:04:29Z White_Flame: it's a cat and mouse problem, not a "oh well, don't bother" failure
2015-05-23T15:04:37Z jackdaniel: Fare: thanks
2015-05-23T15:04:43Z schjetne: As late as yesterday I was thinking of a privacy extension to SMTP that demands the MTA it connects to to use TLS with a certificate signed by the recipient's PGP key to hand over the email. Could help keep headers private as well, but it's inaccessible to most people and doesn't scale to sites with many users
2015-05-23T15:05:52Z White_Flame: and correlation attacks can only occur in particular situations, which new Tor versions are working to optimize against
2015-05-23T15:06:27Z White_Flame: of course, the best way to avoid correlation attacks is to use fixed bandwidth pipes stuffed with random padding when idle
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2015-05-23T15:07:56Z pjb: White_Flame: when the NSA gather all the traffic from the ISP, it doesn't need to know how the data was transfered.  It can just see it entering the network from your IP, and exiting it from this other IP.
2015-05-23T15:08:21Z White_Flame: which is not valid depending on how many are using those IPs
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2015-05-23T15:08:31Z schjetne: I wonder what you could do with padding with insufficient entropy
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2015-05-23T15:08:57Z White_Flame: and besides, every peer is helping to transfer data for others
2015-05-23T15:09:13Z White_Flame: there isn't an easy 1-to-1 correlation with what is a request vs response
2015-05-23T15:09:15Z pjb: that would be a first step.  Having constant traffic with everybody, and substituting your actual traffic when you actually need to transmit.
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2015-05-23T15:09:32Z pjb: Now, you would need some real big bandwidth!
2015-05-23T15:09:35Z White_Flame: pjb: which is normally happening if you have bandwidth limits set on your node
2015-05-23T15:09:58Z White_Flame: since the information you're routing fills the rest fo the bandwidth, along with yours stuffed in
2015-05-23T15:10:01Z pjb: Imagine, 4K video from everybody to everybody 100% of the time, encrypted or cryptographically strong randmized.
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2015-05-23T15:11:43Z pjb: Even within a subscriber group, it's really hard to maintain such a traffic.
2015-05-23T15:12:02Z White_Flame: which is why high-bandwidth expectations dont' really exist on darknets
2015-05-23T15:12:18Z pjb: which is why they aren't dark, but gray.
2015-05-23T15:12:45Z White_Flame: but again, these easy target "oh, but the NSA can just do X" are long thought of and continually addressed
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2015-05-23T15:13:27Z White_Flame: in, of course, a cat-and-mouse situation
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2015-05-23T15:27:06Z theos: what if NSA influenced Tor? so people will think its safe to share private stuff but nsa can easily read it all
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2015-05-23T15:28:30Z theos: "new" vulnerabilities are "discovered" every now and then. what if they were intentionally put there?
2015-05-23T15:30:40Z beach thinks #lisp is a strange place.
2015-05-23T15:32:24Z schjetne: theos: did you see Poul Henning Kamp's talk at FOSDEM 2014?
2015-05-23T15:32:33Z theos: beach only on the weekends :)
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2015-05-23T15:32:57Z theos: schjetne i dont think i have. do you recommend it?
2015-05-23T15:33:28Z schjetne: http://bofh.nikhef.nl/events/FOSDEM//2014/Janson/Sunday/NSA_operation_ORCHESTRA_Annual_Status_Report.webm
2015-05-23T15:33:44Z schjetne: Yes. Especially interesting that Heartbleed came out so soon after
2015-05-23T15:35:17Z beach: schjetne: Seriously?  "As far as possible"?  I don't think so.
2015-05-23T15:35:44Z theos: schjetne i will watch it on youtube. thanks
2015-05-23T15:37:25Z schjetne: I find long question-and-answer sessions spanning multiple emails with Gmail users tiresome
2015-05-23T15:38:01Z beach: schjetne: That is very different from "as far as possible" though.
2015-05-23T15:38:25Z schjetne: Yes, I suppose that was an exaggeration
2015-05-23T15:38:28Z beach: schjetne: I can't stand Gmail myself, but that's because I can not use Emacs to compose mail.
2015-05-23T15:38:47Z schjetne: You can not use Emacs to compose mail?
2015-05-23T15:38:54Z beach: Not anymore.
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2015-05-23T15:39:11Z beach: It used to be the case that the compose thing was just a text box, so I could use "it's all text".
2015-05-23T15:39:21Z beach: But now I don't know how to do it anymore.
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2015-05-23T15:39:46Z beach: schjetne: Obviously, I would not recommend that someone write an email client in Common Lisp where you can't use Emacs to compose mail.
2015-05-23T15:40:22Z beach: Anyway, let's drop it.  Shinmera already told me that we don't need another email client.
2015-05-23T15:41:49Z schjetne: I think the lack of a decent editor is the biggest drawback with any mail client that doesn't run inside of Emacs, but I suppose you're both right, there are more important programs to write
2015-05-23T15:42:08Z schjetne: I'll have to make do with Gnus for now
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2015-05-23T15:58:57Z Shinmera: beach: Hey now, I never said that. I asked whether we really do need one, because I don't see any compelling reason why we should.
2015-05-23T16:00:51Z beach: OK.
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2015-05-23T16:01:48Z Shinmera: Or, put even more carefully: The reasons that might make a new mail client appealing also require so much work in auxiliary features that the total amount of work necessary to make it a viable alternative to existing clients would be too large.
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2015-05-23T16:04:14Z pjb: theos: what if Tor was developed by the NSA in the first place?
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2015-05-23T16:04:50Z theos: pjb thats what i was trying to say
2015-05-23T16:04:54Z Shinmera: what if this channel was about Common Lisp again?
2015-05-23T16:05:02Z pjb: theos: but more fundamentally, this poses the question of the financement of R&D.
2015-05-23T16:05:13Z pjb: Shinmera: remember, we'll try to write a solution in CL :-)
2015-05-23T16:05:42Z Bike: i'm kind of surprised how often sbcl complains about (loop ... summing (the double-float whatever)), since it can't tell the sum is a double float, somehow, and it's kind of annoying to specify it
2015-05-23T16:05:44Z Shinmera: pjb: So far the debate is exclusively about not really CL things. I'll be delighted when I hear stuff actually related to CL.
2015-05-23T16:05:45Z pjb: Look how this poor professor now gets charged of spying for chinese just for teaching!
2015-05-23T16:06:03Z pjb: I mean, if the university can't spread knowledge, what world are we in?
2015-05-23T16:06:13Z theos: exactly
2015-05-23T16:06:14Z schjetne: We'd have to revive CLIM first so we can make the CL solution's text fields editable with Emacs-style commands
2015-05-23T16:07:17Z pjb: Righto.
2015-05-23T16:09:37Z theos: pjb why not write a tor-like system in CL!
2015-05-23T16:09:52Z beach: theos: pjb is a busy man.
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2015-05-23T16:11:12Z theos: beach he is a professor. i am sure he can influence his students to do the work :P
2015-05-23T16:11:23Z beach: That's news to me.
2015-05-23T16:11:42Z pjb: I'm not a professor. Beach is. :-)
2015-05-23T16:11:51Z theos: oh wait..
2015-05-23T16:12:01Z pjb: I probably should have been one, thought.
2015-05-23T16:12:10Z Oladon: Ah, no wonder beach is always saying "good morning"...
2015-05-23T16:12:22Z theos: good one Oladon
2015-05-23T16:12:44Z theos: i find him to be well mannered and soft spoken
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2015-05-23T16:12:53Z beach: Oladon: Do you mean that everybody else's mornings are bad?
2015-05-23T16:13:17Z Oladon: beach: Heh. Touché! :)
2015-05-23T16:13:23Z Shinmera is thinking about starting yet another project, this time for an image viewer, because his favourite one just turned into utter shit in the last update.
2015-05-23T16:13:40Z pjb: No, but that professors seem to be early bugs, with lessons starting at 8:00.
2015-05-23T16:13:43Z Shinmera: Rage is a good way to get ideas.
2015-05-23T16:14:02Z Oladon: 7:30 when I was in college...
2015-05-23T16:14:09Z beach: Shinmera: Do we really need another image viewer?
2015-05-23T16:14:11Z pjb: That would have been the most difficult part for me if I had chosen this profession.
2015-05-23T16:14:15Z Oladon: Though that wasn't a full-fledged professor
2015-05-23T16:14:23Z Shinmera: beach: No, but I'm angry enough to possibly do it anyway.
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2015-05-23T16:15:00Z pjb: At the university, I could assist the 9:00 lectures, only because it was exactly 5 minutes between my bed and the amphi.
2015-05-23T16:15:10Z Oladon: pjb: heh
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2015-05-23T16:15:15Z beach: pjb: "attend"
2015-05-23T16:15:21Z pjb: thanks.
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2015-05-23T16:15:40Z Oladon: Oh, I thought he actually meant help with
2015-05-23T16:15:48Z Oladon: pjb: Are you a native Spanish speaker?
2015-05-23T16:15:49Z beach: That's why I corrected it.
2015-05-23T16:15:52Z pjb: no, s/assist/attend/ French.
2015-05-23T16:15:55Z Oladon: Ah, French.
2015-05-23T16:16:01Z Oladon: :)
2015-05-23T16:17:38Z Oladon: Hmm. I wonder if I should try to implement one more feature before my alpha release, since I'm waiting on someone else for the actual release...
2015-05-23T16:17:58Z pjb: branch and add features for the beta release.
2015-05-23T16:18:18Z Oladon: Hmm... that's one possibility.
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2015-05-23T16:38:47Z ehu: common-lisp.net down for emergency maintenance. problems from yesterday turn out to be caused by a failing disk (then not visible in SMART parameters yet)
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2015-05-23T16:42:26Z Fare: :-(
2015-05-23T16:42:32Z Fare: is there a backup?
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2015-05-23T17:20:52Z beach: drmeister: I did a fresh clone of your Clasp repository.  There is very little code in the src/cando directory.  Is that normal?
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2015-05-23T17:21:32Z drmeister: Yes.  The cando repository is currently private.
2015-05-23T17:21:43Z beach: Got it.
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2015-05-23T17:22:31Z beach: drmeister: Are you making good progress?
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2015-05-23T17:27:53Z beach now regrets asking.
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2015-05-23T17:33:08Z drmeister: Yes.
2015-05-23T17:33:28Z drmeister: Sorry - tied up with little girl requests.
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2015-05-23T17:34:03Z beach: A welcome break from work, I imagine.
2015-05-23T17:34:22Z drmeister: I'm incorporating the chemistry code - but it's old.  I made so many changes to the API's and there are lots of compile-time errors.
2015-05-23T17:34:44Z beach: To what API?
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2015-05-23T17:34:52Z drmeister: All sorts of them.
2015-05-23T17:35:03Z beach: So you haven't been using the code for a while?
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2015-05-23T17:35:51Z drmeister: For instance - if I have an variable x that should be a rational  I used to go    x.as<Rational_O>()->as_int()   to get an integer value from it or signal an error if it's not a rational
2015-05-23T17:36:11Z drmeister: Now I can't do that because x could be an immediate fixnum value.
2015-05-23T17:36:27Z beach: Yes, I see.
2015-05-23T17:36:35Z drmeister: So I have a new API that goes like this:    core::clasp_to_fixnum(x.as<Rational_O>())
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2015-05-23T17:36:48Z drmeister: These are everywhere.
2015-05-23T17:37:01Z schjetne: That reminds me, now that I switched to Arch I can use Shinmera's convenient pkgbuild to install Clasp
2015-05-23T17:37:04Z drmeister: There is no simple way to automate this sort of conversion.
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2015-05-23T17:37:38Z beach: drmeister: So this is not the first time you attach the chemistry code to Clasp?
2015-05-23T17:37:46Z drmeister: I may need to write a source-to-source translation program.
2015-05-23T17:38:03Z drmeister: No, I've been through this before - but never this bad.
2015-05-23T17:38:12Z drmeister: It's been more than a year since I had the chemistry code hooked in.
2015-05-23T17:38:27Z beach: OK, I understand a bit better now.
2015-05-23T17:39:04Z drmeister: Did you see my example with vectors where I was preparing to use cl-conspack for serialization?
2015-05-23T17:39:09Z drmeister: 3D vectors?
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2015-05-23T17:39:27Z beach: Must have missed it.
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2015-05-23T17:40:52Z beach: It's hard to keep up.
2015-05-23T17:41:00Z drmeister: No problem.  I found it:
2015-05-23T17:41:01Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/ghGFct3U
2015-05-23T17:41:32Z drmeister: make-ovector3 is a bit wordy but it creates a 3D vector, a tuple of three doubles.
2015-05-23T17:41:54Z beach: I think I must have seen that example in the logs.
2015-05-23T17:42:14Z drmeister: I'm writing an "encode" and "decode" function that returns and consumes an a-list that describes the object.
2015-05-23T17:42:26Z drmeister: Then cl-conspack will use that to serialize objects.
2015-05-23T17:42:54Z Shinmera: schjetne: Let me know if it doesn't build right.
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2015-05-23T17:46:25Z drmeister: The point is that I add all these new builtin classes written in C++ that appear as first class Common Lisp classes and are managed by the garbage collector.
2015-05-23T17:46:42Z drmeister: They will interact with Common Lisp code like any other builtin class.
2015-05-23T17:47:02Z beach: Neat.
2015-05-23T17:47:10Z drmeister: You can dispatch on them, manipulate them, print them, read them etc.
2015-05-23T17:47:57Z beach: So their metaclass is built-in-class, as opposed to (say) C++-class?
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2015-05-23T17:48:37Z schjetne: Shinmera: will do
2015-05-23T17:48:58Z drmeister: What's different about them from classes/structures one can define from Common Lisp is they have complex, compact representations in memory.   They are C++ classes after all.
2015-05-23T17:49:12Z beach: Right.
2015-05-23T17:49:28Z beach: drmeister: I have to go.  Talk later.
2015-05-23T17:49:33Z drmeister: Talk later.
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2015-05-23T18:19:50Z coetry: I've downloaded :cl-twitter via quicklisp, and it reported to errors for compiling, yet when i try to call a function (yes with proper namespace, and i even allowed emcas to autocomplete, to ensure accurate spelling), it says that the function is undefined
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2015-05-23T18:20:05Z coetry: why would it say undefined? When clearly the author defined it
2015-05-23T18:20:33Z Shinmera: Just because the symbol exists doesn't mean a function is bound to it.
2015-05-23T18:20:53Z Shinmera: Also, cl-twitter is mostly obsolete. Use Chirp instead. http://shinmera.github.io/chirp/
2015-05-23T18:21:41Z coetry: Shinmera, ok cool, thanks for chirp, but im still not understanding how the function wasn't bound
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2015-05-23T18:21:53Z coetry: is that something with my loading of the library? I can read the code on github and see it being defined
2015-05-23T18:22:33Z Shinmera: Which one is it?
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2015-05-23T18:24:08Z coetry: (cl-twitter:repl-authenticate-user)
2015-05-23T18:24:22Z jackdaniel: coetry: does it work with double colon?
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2015-05-23T18:24:23Z coetry: https://github.com/fons/cl-twitter/blob/master/cl-twit-repl/twitter.lisp#L53
2015-05-23T18:24:28Z coetry: let me try
2015-05-23T18:24:48Z coetry: nopep
2015-05-23T18:25:03Z White_Flame: coetry: when the source code is read by Lisp, all the symbols are created
2015-05-23T18:25:03Z jackdaniel: it might be also in other package
2015-05-23T18:25:16Z White_Flame: but when there are errors, the function themselves are not loaded
2015-05-23T18:25:17Z Shinmera: coetry: Look at the top of that file
2015-05-23T18:25:29Z Shinmera: "(in-package :cl-twit-repl)
2015-05-23T18:25:34Z coetry: ohhhhhhhhh , i'll be damned
2015-05-23T18:25:49Z coetry: how careless, the dev even had wrong docs!
2015-05-23T18:26:01Z coetry: but also careless of me not to notice
2015-05-23T18:26:13Z jackdaniel: coetry: as punishment donate 1$ to common-lisp.net ;)
2015-05-23T18:26:24Z coetry: oh i'll donate more, thats not a punishment, thats a duty
2015-05-23T18:26:27Z coetry: <3
2015-05-23T18:26:29Z Shinmera: Just use Chirp and scream at me if you encounter a problem.
2015-05-23T18:26:35Z coetry: will do
2015-05-23T18:26:59Z aeth: wow FORMAT is awesome
2015-05-23T18:28:03Z jackdaniel: aeth: (format t "(_~0,0f_)" 1.1) ;; what's a joke obv
2015-05-23T18:28:40Z jackdaniel: not working joke
2015-05-23T18:28:58Z aeth: so apparently FORMAT makes it trivial to turn lists into strings
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2015-05-23T18:29:04Z jackdaniel: aeth: (format t "(_~0,0f_)" 0) ;; what's a joke obv
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2015-05-23T18:29:26Z aeth: I missed ~^ in my first read of this chapter apparently. That changes everything. http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/a-few-format-recipes.html
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2015-05-23T18:31:03Z aeth: Basically any data that can be expressed in a list can be turned into some meaningful string. This is cool.
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2015-05-23T18:33:13Z Quadrescence: it is more correct to say something like: any data that is printable which resides in a list iterated over to produce a string using FORMAT
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2015-05-23T18:33:44Z aeth: ok, any printable data
2015-05-23T18:34:32Z Quadrescence: You can of course get away with it without FORMAT too, using any of Common Lisp's iteration operators
2015-05-23T18:34:59Z aeth: Do Lisp objects have something that lets them return a string representation of themsleves if printed? iirc, Java and Python have this
2015-05-23T18:35:11Z aeth: and yes you can not use FORMAT, but FORMAT seems to reduce quite a few things to one liners
2015-05-23T18:35:21Z beach: (format nil ...)
2015-05-23T18:35:33Z dim: aeth: you can override print-method
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2015-05-23T18:36:22Z jackdaniel: aeth: #'print does just that
2015-05-23T18:36:40Z Quadrescence: no, PRINT writes to a stream.
2015-05-23T18:36:46Z Quadrescence: aeth, PRIN1-TO-STRING, (FORMAT NIL ...), PRINC-TO-STRING
2015-05-23T18:38:10Z Quadrescence: > (progn (defclass aeth () ()) (defmethod print-object ((x aeth) s) (write-string "<aeth>" s)) (princ-to-string (make-instance 'aeth)))
2015-05-23T18:38:11Z Quadrescence: "<aeth>"
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2015-05-23T18:40:22Z aeth: thanks
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2015-05-23T18:46:42Z White_Flame: Quadrescence: without FORMAT, you have the nuisance of determining when to print separators.  FORMAT is nice for that
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2015-05-23T18:50:10Z Quadrescence: yes of course, ~{~foo~^, ~} is a common idiom
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2015-05-23T18:50:55Z Quadrescence: But determining separators isn't hard either, just an (ENDP (REST X)) check
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2015-05-23T18:52:53Z ggole: I've always done the check first
2015-05-23T18:53:00Z ggole: Probably a useless microoptimisation
2015-05-23T18:53:54Z White_Flame: My instinct is to pull the first element out of the loop, then print separator+element, to avoid an extra branch test inside the loop body
2015-05-23T18:54:04Z White_Flame: which is certainly a useless microoptimization :-P
2015-05-23T18:54:08Z ggole: Yeah, that's what I meant
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2015-05-23T18:55:28Z Quadrescence: White_Flame, do you have a github or something
2015-05-23T18:55:42Z White_Flame: no, though I've been meaning to
2015-05-23T18:56:11Z White_Flame: going to clean up some of our company's library stuff to put out there, submit some modifications to alexandria, etc
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2015-05-23T18:56:38Z Quadrescence: time's a tickin'
2015-05-23T18:57:02Z White_Flame: yeah, but time's also a tickin' on higher priority things ;)
2015-05-23T18:58:02Z Quadrescence: ;)
2015-05-23T18:58:08Z schjetne: Shinmera: externals-clasp-git failed: http://paste.lisp.org/display/148578
2015-05-23T18:59:00Z Shinmera: schjetne: I don't recommend building with yaourt, as the /tmp virtual won't be large enough to contain everything most likely.
2015-05-23T18:59:17Z Shinmera: schjetne: Though I don't know what that error is about, to be honest.
2015-05-23T18:59:34Z Shinmera: drmeister: ^ any ideas?
2015-05-23T18:59:49Z White_Flame: Quadrescence: was there anything in particular you wanted to look at that I might have mentioned?
2015-05-23T19:00:22Z Quadrescence: White_Flame, no, but you seem like you probably write good code, so i wanted to look at it
2015-05-23T19:00:45Z White_Flame: thanks
2015-05-23T19:01:19Z White_Flame: working in places where people die or financial institutions crumble if your code has bugs kind of does that to you :)
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2015-05-23T19:03:15Z Shinmera: schjetne: I should probably add a test for that kind of thing to the build script
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2015-05-23T19:10:36Z jackdaniel: yaourt has something like --with-tmp-dir=/ (not sure if exactly that)
2015-05-23T19:10:40Z jackdaniel: yet makepkg is optimal
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2015-05-23T19:26:42Z schjetne: Shinmera: I never user Yaourt last time I used Arch, I'll try without after dinner and let you know
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2015-05-23T19:27:44Z Shinmera: Sure. I hope that that's the actual problem here, though I doubt it.
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2015-05-23T19:29:04Z oleo: http://www.picpaste.com/pics/macro.1432408560.png
2015-05-23T19:29:26Z oleo: http://www.picpaste.com/pics/terminal.1432409139.png
2015-05-23T19:31:28Z Quadrescence: not useful as a reader macro, in my opinion
2015-05-23T19:31:37Z Quadrescence: but maybe it is
2015-05-23T19:32:10Z katco: what is the canonical queue package in cl?
2015-05-23T19:33:33Z Quadrescence: what kind of queue do you want
2015-05-23T19:33:52Z Quadrescence: multithreaded queues? or just a simple queue data structure
2015-05-23T19:33:59Z katco: just a simple queue structure
2015-05-23T19:34:50Z Quadrescence: katco, I don't know of a canonical package, but I use this code: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/lisp-random/raw/2d0cccb92f5f97dd7524245139d9fcda1955ef3f/stack-queue.lisp
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2015-05-23T19:35:12Z Quadrescence: O(1) enqueue and dequeue operations
2015-05-23T19:35:39Z katco: Quadrescence: ty, but i was hoping for something widely used (since it's a common ds) and avail. in ql
2015-05-23T19:35:58Z Quadrescence: katco, since the data structure is so simple people seem to just write their own, for better or for worse
2015-05-23T19:36:06Z katco: =/
2015-05-23T19:36:19Z Quadrescence: maybe i'll put that one on QL
2015-05-23T19:36:54Z katco: there are already a few i think
2015-05-23T19:36:57Z White_Flame: yep.  For instance, in ours we simply cons up a list, then the reader pops the entire list to process.  Optimized for our particular usage, and tiny
2015-05-23T19:37:35Z Quadrescence: katco, probably the QUEUES system is good. It has SIMPLE-QUEUE
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2015-05-23T19:53:53Z drmeister: Shinmera, schjetne:  I have no idea what is going wrong with that LLVM code - it looks completely mangled.
2015-05-23T19:54:04Z drmeister: Nuke it from orbit and start over again.
2015-05-23T19:54:10Z Shinmera: katco: Have a couple http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/7C
2015-05-23T19:54:52Z katco: Shinmera: ty
2015-05-23T19:55:35Z drmeister: I wrote a units library in C++ that I use with my chemistry code.  Here it is exposed to Clasp Common Lisp.
2015-05-23T19:55:36Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/Jmy1VktY
2015-05-23T19:56:00Z drmeister: My interplanetary probes won't skip off of their target planets.
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2015-05-23T20:00:43Z nyef: Hello all.
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2015-05-23T20:38:11Z dim: katco: what operations do you want? push/pop are in the standard and work well against lists...
2015-05-23T20:38:37Z White_Flame: push/pop are lifo, not fifo
2015-05-23T20:38:46Z dim: right
2015-05-23T20:38:55Z dim: but he didn't say which kind of queue he wants
2015-05-23T20:39:10Z dim: oh well english for lifo queue might be stack
2015-05-23T20:39:11Z dim: ok
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2015-05-23T20:39:37Z katco: dim: ty, but yes... fifo
2015-05-23T20:39:53Z dim: there's cl-containers
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2015-05-23T20:40:18Z dim: http://www.cliki.net/cl-containers
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2015-05-23T20:40:50Z katco: dim: ah cool. is that pretty widely used?
2015-05-23T20:41:09Z dim: I know I've been using code that depends on it
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2015-05-23T21:14:19Z fourier: cl-containers https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-containers/ last updated 6 October 2005 :(
2015-05-23T21:15:22Z ehu: fourier: is that a problem? the CL spec hasn't changed between then and now.
2015-05-23T21:17:06Z fourier: problem not with a spec (who cares), but with reliability with apparently abandoned pet-project...
2015-05-23T21:17:50Z schjetne: I wish there was an easier way to distinguish a project that's been abandoned and neglected with a project that simply happens to not having had any bugs or omissions for 10 years
2015-05-23T21:19:05Z ehu: https://github.com/gwkkwg/cl-containers
2015-05-23T21:19:05Z Shinmera: contacting the author is a way.
2015-05-23T21:19:37Z ehu: last commit in 2013
2015-05-23T21:20:20Z schjetne: I like to believe that Lisp programs rarely have bugs or ommissions
2015-05-23T21:20:29Z _death: it's not a useful distinction, given the right attitude: if it's buggy, submit a pull request.. meanwhile use your own fork
2015-05-23T21:20:46Z schjetne: My own code tends to prove me wrong, though.
2015-05-23T21:20:46Z ehu: cl-containers is in quicklisp, I think.
2015-05-23T21:21:16Z fourier: schjetne: :)
2015-05-23T21:21:33Z schjetne: I have some nasty hackbraries myself
2015-05-23T21:22:28Z fourier: ehu: ah that is better! looks like it has some tests, so probably more/less ok
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2015-05-23T21:46:50Z pjb: schjetne: what about fucking trying it?
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2015-05-23T21:47:15Z pjb: If it does what you want, be happy! If not, patch it.
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2015-05-23T21:48:12Z White_Flame: yep, just because something is old doesn't mean it's incomplete.  Just because something is recently updated doesn't mean it is complete.
2015-05-23T21:48:38Z White_Flame: and when it comes to datastructures, either it's working with API completeness that's sufficient, or not
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2015-05-23T21:49:54Z White_Flame: but I do agree that there should be something somewhere which ranks between similar libraries
2015-05-23T21:50:08Z White_Flame: cliki, quicklisp, etc list them, but it's hard to tell what to grab when there are multiple options
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2015-05-23T21:50:41Z pjb: There's cliki.net
2015-05-23T21:51:14Z nyef: Clearly, there are too many options, so the only thing to do is write your own. d-:
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2015-05-23T22:44:20Z Oladon: Heh.
2015-05-23T22:44:42Z Oladon: nyef has the right of it.
2015-05-23T22:45:10Z nyef: Or what's left of it.
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2015-05-23T22:46:07Z pjb: the right of the left?
2015-05-23T22:46:42Z loz1: hi guys, is there any html parser that can parse non-finished html stream?
2015-05-23T22:47:41Z Shinmera: Plump can grok badly formatted and incomplete HTML, but it doesn't do direct stream processing.
2015-05-23T22:48:02Z Shinmera: (it'll read everything into a string first if you do pass it a stream)
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2015-05-23T22:48:39Z Shinmera: So since I don't know which one of those two you want, it may or may not be what you seek.
2015-05-23T22:48:59Z loz1: Shinmera: okey, ill take a look at it, thanks
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2015-05-23T22:50:28Z loz1: maybe i'm just stupid and there is easier solution - i want to get title of a page without reading whole body
2015-05-23T22:50:44Z Shinmera: Ah, so Plump won't be for you then.
2015-05-23T22:51:20Z Shinmera: Since you only want such a specific part, writing a minimal processor for that should be easy.
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2015-05-23T23:07:28Z loz1: how do i detect end of sequence?
2015-05-23T23:07:36Z loz1: *stream i mean
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2015-05-23T23:08:11Z Shinmera: Each read function will have arguments to handle that case.
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2015-05-23T23:08:50Z loz1: Shinmera: read-sequence doesn't =\
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2015-05-23T23:09:13Z Shinmera: " If the end of file for stream is reached before copying all elements of the subsequence, then the extra elements near the end of sequence are not updated."
2015-05-23T23:09:47Z loz1: hm, so checking last element of result sequence will do the work?
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2015-05-23T23:10:10Z pjb: check the RESULT of read-sequence!
2015-05-23T23:11:07Z loz1: oh, stupid me, thank you
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2015-05-23T23:16:09Z schjetne: Shinmera: it worked just fine without Yaourt
2015-05-23T23:16:17Z Shinmera: schjetne: Neat!
2015-05-23T23:16:25Z Shinmera: schjetne: Hopefully clasp proper will build as well.
2015-05-23T23:17:27Z schjetne: I'm starting it now
2015-05-23T23:19:15Z Shinmera: It'll take a while. I'll be off to sleep in a moment, so when I wake up it'll either be built, or have crashed.
2015-05-23T23:19:43Z Shinmera: Hopefully the former.
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2015-05-23T23:31:56Z loz1: this is what i came up with https://gist.github.com/maximvl/ce5c3e017ab67c5b4c5f
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2015-05-23T23:34:46Z pjb: loz1: bad enough.
2015-05-23T23:35:16Z pjb: have a look at com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:binary-file-contents and com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:text-file-contents.
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2015-05-23T23:37:00Z pjb: You can use read-sequence :start :end  to continue reading a sequence.
2015-05-23T23:37:22Z loz1: pjb: but i dont know how long stream is
2015-05-23T23:37:42Z pjb: Hence adjust-array and the use of an :adjustable t array.
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2015-05-23T23:38:29Z pjb: check com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.stream:contents-from-stream
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2015-05-23T23:39:12Z loz1: pjb: i found docs at http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/doc/com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file.html where can i see the sources?
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2015-05-23T23:39:24Z pjb: Just type M-.
2015-05-23T23:39:39Z pjb: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago) first.
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2015-05-23T23:41:20Z loz1: System "com.informatimago" not found
2015-05-23T23:41:33Z pjb: then (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp) first.
2015-05-23T23:41:47Z pjb: quicklisp seems to have difficulties in publishing available asd…
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2015-05-23T23:42:50Z pjb: once :com.informatimago.common-lisp is installed, (ql:quickload :com.informatimago) should work.
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2015-05-23T23:43:21Z loz1: you have a huge bunch of code
2015-05-23T23:44:02Z loz1: pjb: still not found)
2015-05-23T23:44:15Z pjb: did (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp) work?
2015-05-23T23:44:31Z loz1: yep
2015-05-23T23:44:42Z pjb: then copy and paste com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.stream:contents-from-stream in a lisp buffer and type M-.
2015-05-23T23:45:16Z loz1: done, going to read, thanks)
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2015-05-23T23:47:13Z pjb: loz1: later, you may (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.tools.quicklisp) (use-package :com.informatimago.tools.quicklisp) (quick-install-all) to install everything.
2015-05-23T23:47:33Z pjb: so you already have a local copy of all libraries in quicklisp.
2015-05-23T23:47:54Z loz1: pjb: its all about vector-push-extend, but isn't it inefficient to read one byte at time?
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2015-05-23T23:48:11Z pjb: loz1: this is a special case, check the else branch.
2015-05-23T23:48:17Z pjb: read the comments, they're not useless!
2015-05-23T23:48:59Z loz1: :D
2015-05-23T23:49:16Z pjb: but since the buffer allocated is bigger than the file size, it should never extend, normally.
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2015-05-23T23:49:45Z pjb: Otherwise, indeed, it would be better to use the third parameter of vector-push-extend to ensure good asymptotic behavior.
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2015-05-24T03:36:00Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-05-24T03:36:24Z isBEKaml: beach: 'mornin!
2015-05-24T03:36:57Z isBEKaml wonders if its always morning in beach's TZ
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2015-05-24T03:43:57Z beach: isBEKaml: Not at all.
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2015-05-24T03:45:16Z isBEKaml: beach: so a bit early for a Sunday morning, don't you think? :-)
2015-05-24T03:45:34Z beach: I always get up around 5am.
2015-05-24T03:46:00Z beach: It's a generic defect.  I can't help it.
2015-05-24T03:46:29Z theos: like birds?
2015-05-24T03:46:33Z Quadrescence: (DEFGENERIC DEFECT (PERSON) (:METHOD ((PERSON BEACH)) (WAKE-UP 'TOO-EARLY)))
2015-05-24T03:49:04Z beach: theos: Yes, they keep me company in the morning.  I open my window and listen to them.
2015-05-24T03:50:00Z theos: beach i do the same. wake up at 6 and go for a walk in my mini-forest
2015-05-24T03:50:19Z isBEKaml: beach: sound nice, listening to bird chirps in the morning
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2015-05-24T03:52:10Z beach: Time to get cracking on phase 2 of SICL bootstrapping.
2015-05-24T03:53:27Z beach: Phase 1 is complete, I think.  I have a hierarchy of MOP classes in a first-class global environment.  They are represented as host standard classes.  I also have all the metaobject readers defined in that first-class global environment.
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2015-05-24T03:55:12Z theos: beach do you teach CL?
2015-05-24T03:55:31Z beach: I used to.  My colleague took over that course.
2015-05-24T03:55:39Z isBEKaml: beach: you're talking about this, right? https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2015-05-24T03:55:48Z beach: isBEKaml: Right.
2015-05-24T03:55:54Z theos: oh
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2015-05-24T03:58:00Z beach: theos: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~idurand/enseignement/lst-info/PFS/
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2015-05-24T03:59:12Z theos: i like the Bibliographie. it has all the books i like
2015-05-24T03:59:26Z beach: Right.
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2015-05-24T04:56:44Z Cazalia: Unlike OOP, the core paradigm of Lisp languages, following the model "a programming languages programming language", we could call this paradigm LOP (Language Oriented Programming).  We could also say then that systems become collections of DSL interconnected packages.  Then the question arises: isn't the user, thus, getting tasked to become a multi-DSL jockey, an "apps polyglot", as it were?
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2015-05-24T04:59:38Z beach: Cazalia: Where did you find that?  The grammar is terrible.
2015-05-24T05:01:16Z Cazalia: what about the question?
2015-05-24T05:01:53Z beach: I can't take such things seriously.  Where did you find it?
2015-05-24T05:03:04Z Cazalia: Isn't a question about the burdens---or easements---laid on users a valid question?
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2015-05-24T05:04:02Z beach: The question is not valid, because there is no definition of "multi-DSL jockey" and "apps polyglot".  Those terms were probably invented to give a negative connotation.
2015-05-24T05:04:31Z beach: Cazalia: Again, where did you find this?  Who wrote it?
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2015-05-24T05:08:49Z Cazalia: beach: if the ideas have no merit, that's fair enough, no?  Shredding the name of the thinker is pointless, no?
2015-05-24T05:09:31Z beach: I am still interested in who would produce such a thing.
2015-05-24T05:11:37Z Cazalia: My interest is in finding out whether a proliferation of DSLs will eventually result in my users becoming overwhelmed with having to deal/learn such profusion of DSLs.
2015-05-24T05:12:55Z beach: Good luck with your quest.
2015-05-24T05:14:04Z nyef: beach: Hello.
2015-05-24T05:14:18Z Cazalia: yeah, some of us are learners, we don't know it all already, and that's why we ask for pointers.
2015-05-24T05:14:22Z beach: nyef: Long time now see.  What's up?
2015-05-24T05:14:41Z nyef: Too much caffeine today, so I'm still up.
2015-05-24T05:14:48Z Cazalia: "no-see", not "now see".
2015-05-24T05:15:16Z beach: Oops.  Yes, thanks.
2015-05-24T05:16:05Z Cazalia: lol . . . some grammarian you are, eh?
2015-05-24T05:16:11Z nyef: Over the past couple of days, I've overhauled the bootstrap process for my Forth system, so it can bootstrap from 64-bit gforth and generate the same output as from 32-bit jonesforth and a 32-bit native build.
2015-05-24T05:16:56Z nyef: And I'm preparing for resuming battle with the Linux kernel soon.
2015-05-24T05:17:41Z nyef: And I've realized that I'm fairly well burned out on work stuff, which is never good.
2015-05-24T05:17:55Z beach: Ouch!  Not good.
2015-05-24T05:18:06Z beach: Perhaps you need a vacation.
2015-05-24T05:18:14Z nyef: No perhaps about it.
2015-05-24T05:18:35Z nyef: The only question is, when can I TAKE a vacation. Or even a staycation.
2015-05-24T05:18:42Z Cazalia: nyef: whachoo doin to the kernel?
2015-05-24T05:19:03Z nyef: Cazalia: Running it on an SGI Origin 350.
2015-05-24T05:19:30Z Cazalia: Silicon Gfx chip?
2015-05-24T05:20:04Z Cazalia: i thought they went out of business
2015-05-24T05:20:20Z nyef: The hardware still exists.
2015-05-24T05:21:07Z Cazalia: cool.  they were the best in their day.
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2015-05-24T05:23:29Z nyef: I already have it netbooting, but I want at least the SCSI controller to work, if not the PS/2 ports, the serial ports, the DVD drive, the video hardware if I can manage to bodge a graphics card into the thing, SMP, multi-node operation...
2015-05-24T05:24:26Z nyef: Though at some point I'm expecting my attention to shift back to hacking on SBCL.
2015-05-24T05:25:08Z beach: nyef: Remind me what it is you are planning to do with SBCL?
2015-05-24T05:25:43Z nyef: Threaded MIPS, 64-bit MIPS, and possibly IRIX support.
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2015-05-24T05:26:10Z nyef: ... And then moving on to either the Alpha, SPARC, or HPPA.
2015-05-24T05:26:51Z nyef: Just recovered the ALOM password on my SunFire v210 AGAIN today, and this time put it in my notes file.
2015-05-24T05:27:02Z nyef: Also swapped out the clock battery on it.
2015-05-24T05:28:24Z nyef: And I've been attaching the rack rails that I have to my stack of machines, and taking notes to see if they can all be made to go in the same rack and how large that rack has to be.
2015-05-24T05:28:40Z beach: Busy, busy.
2015-05-24T05:29:03Z nyef: Mmm. And much of it having very little, if anything, to do with "work".
2015-05-24T05:29:59Z Cazalia: i replaced a clock batt on a workstation because it had been there for 11 years—not because it was going bad
2015-05-24T05:31:02Z Cazalia: nyef: your machines are in pizza boxes, or blades?
2015-05-24T05:31:11Z beach: Cazalia: You are new here, right?  Do you already know Common Lisp, or perhaps you are thinking of learning it?
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2015-05-24T05:31:28Z nyef: Cazalia: It's a mix of 2U and 1U devices.
2015-05-24T05:32:03Z Cazalia: beach: yes, new.  I'm entertaining learning CLisp
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2015-05-24T05:32:31Z beach: Cazalia: CLISP is the name of an implementation of Common Lisp.  If you want to abbreviate Common Lisp, then use CL.
2015-05-24T05:32:46Z Cazalia: ah, CL then
2015-05-24T05:33:20Z beach: Cazalia: If you are planning to learn it, then you should know that it has one of the most powerful object-oriented systems, and that many modern Common Lisp programs are object oriented.
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2015-05-24T05:33:57Z beach: ... just in case you might believe some people who say otherwise.
2015-05-24T05:36:04Z Cazalia: yes, OO facilities in CL is a reason it attracted me
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2015-05-24T05:37:46Z beach: minion: Please tell Cazalia about PCL.
2015-05-24T05:37:47Z minion: Cazalia: direct your attention towards PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2015-05-24T05:38:22Z theos: i prefer ACL to PCL
2015-05-24T05:38:22Z Cazalia: minion: great; thank you
2015-05-24T05:38:22Z minion: watch out, you'll make krystof angry
2015-05-24T05:38:31Z beach: Cazalia: That book is usually recommended to people who already know some other languages.
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2015-05-24T05:39:13Z beach: minion:  Thanks!
2015-05-24T05:39:13Z minion: no problem
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2015-05-24T05:46:12Z Cazalia: yes, Siebel's looks my speed.
2015-05-24T05:47:20Z theos: Cazalia read "ANSI Common Lisp" too. i think it was free online. maybe not.
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2015-05-24T05:48:02Z Cazalia: theos: thanks, cool
2015-05-24T05:50:37Z duko: is there a name for a tree traversal in which parts of the tree are defined as the traversal goes deeper, with the parents then redefined by information from the new fully defined children?
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2015-05-24T05:55:38Z beach: duko: Never heard a name for that.
2015-05-24T05:56:40Z duko: is it a reasonable thing to do? is it a code smell?
2015-05-24T05:57:02Z duko: beach: thanks
2015-05-24T05:57:08Z beach: If that's what it takes, then you need to do it.
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2015-05-24T05:59:02Z beach: theos: I don't think ANSI Common Lisp is available online.  His other book "On Lisp" is, or at least was, though.
2015-05-24T05:59:30Z Quadrescence: (compile nil (lambda () #1=(1+ #1#)))
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2015-05-24T06:00:11Z theos: beach oh. i want sure of it
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2015-05-24T06:27:13Z Bike: Quadrescence: clearly we need ordinal arithmetic.
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2015-05-24T06:29:36Z beach: (* א 2)
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2015-05-24T06:36:59Z Quadrescence: Bike, Make a CDR!
2015-05-24T06:37:25Z Bike: in that one steele talk he actually mentioned adding surreal numbers to java, now that i think about it
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2015-05-24T06:37:35Z Quadrescence: ;)
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2015-05-24T07:25:07Z schjetne: minion: memo for Shinmera: Clasp built and installed beautifully!
2015-05-24T07:25:07Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Shinmera when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-05-24T07:47:46Z Shinmera: schjetne: Nice!
2015-05-24T07:47:46Z minion: Shinmera, memo from schjetne: Clasp built and installed beautifully!
2015-05-24T07:47:52Z Shinmera overslept :(
2015-05-24T07:48:13Z schjetne: Me too
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2015-05-24T07:58:49Z otwieracz: What's state of Clasp?
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2015-05-24T08:24:44Z loz1: is there any de-facto default test framework for CL?
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2015-05-24T08:28:07Z beach: loz1: There are several, probably because they are so easy to write, and none of them can do everything that is needed.
2015-05-24T08:28:29Z beach: loz1: For instance, I often use random testing and none of the ones I looked at could do that.
2015-05-24T08:28:52Z beach: otwieracz: It works, but it is still slow.  drmeister is working on improving the speed.
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2015-05-24T08:39:29Z loz1: beach: 5am can generate random inputs according its docs
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2015-05-24T08:54:58Z beach: loz1: When I do random testing of some data structure, I write a trivial but inefficient version of it, and then I generate random sequences of operations for both of them and I check that I get the same results.  Often, it needs to be a Markov process, and there needs to be tests to see that preconditions are met.
2015-05-24T08:55:17Z beach: loz1: It is not just any random input.
2015-05-24T08:57:12Z jackdaniel: if I have a few packages in one project should I define them in one file? or spread them?
2015-05-24T08:57:30Z jackdaniel: ie package.lisp
2015-05-24T08:58:36Z beach: jackdaniel: There is no universal answer.  It depends on how tightly coupled they are.
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2015-05-24T08:59:34Z beach: jackdaniel: Also, it is something that can easily be modified later, so just make a random decision and see how it turns out.
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2015-05-24T09:01:01Z jackdaniel: yes, I tought there is a good practice
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2015-05-24T09:01:07Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2015-05-24T09:15:49Z kong0: lisp is fucking shit
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2015-05-24T09:19:43Z jackdaniel: hm, weird sexual imagination
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2015-05-24T09:42:43Z theos: did he join just to say that?
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2015-05-24T09:43:26Z jackdaniel: plausible
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2015-05-24T09:44:51Z nydel: what was said? dammitall i just lost so much irpg progress
2015-05-24T09:45:12Z beach: nydel: Some insult.  No need to repeat.
2015-05-24T09:45:49Z nydel: i hope whomever said it finds what they're looking for. how's everyone doing today
2015-05-24T09:46:21Z jackdaniel finished his with-syntax macro sketch
2015-05-24T09:46:22Z theos: just another weekend. sipping martini on a beach_
2015-05-24T09:46:47Z beach is working on phase 2 of SICL bootstrapping.
2015-05-24T09:47:29Z jackdaniel: next step would be outraging (do-x ([var lst]) ...) sketch
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2015-05-24T09:50:22Z jackdaniel: s/would/will/
2015-05-24T09:50:45Z nydel is crash-coursing zeself in macroeconomics in order to implement well a cross-server currency for some mmo's for which ze's programming the multiplayer ends
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2015-05-24T09:53:43Z nydel: i really have no idea how many coins a book on killing zombies should cost. d'you ever find yourself stuck with work way outside your specialities on account of you're "the guy on staff who does computers" then they ask you to do something like make an economy etc? been happening a lot lately.
2015-05-24T09:54:15Z jackdaniel: it's priceless artifact
2015-05-24T09:54:30Z jackdaniel: it should be expensive, but hard to sell
2015-05-24T09:54:37Z jackdaniel: a priceless°
2015-05-24T09:55:40Z nydel: yeah.. my initial thought is that if everything is so expensive you probably already have it by the time you can afford it then the players will set prices themselves and just trade for coin etc
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2015-05-24T10:12:24Z beach: The "problem" with bootstrapping SICL this way is that, if everything goes well, I will have a complete SICL environment inside a host Common Lisp system, so I will have no incentive to produce a native SICL system. :)
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2015-05-24T10:13:08Z beach: The minute I produce a native system, I will lose all my debugging tools, unless I write those tools first, while still inside the host system.
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2015-05-24T10:18:29Z |3b| is tempted to start working on a SICL backend for dalvik, not sure i'd use it enough to justify the effort though, and too many other things to work on :/
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2015-05-24T10:19:23Z beach: Yeah, the same problem everyone else has.
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2015-05-24T10:19:57Z jackdaniel: isn't that dalvik slowly moves towards deprecation on android?
2015-05-24T10:20:02Z jackdaniel: in favour of art?
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2015-05-24T10:27:30Z nydel: i want to do a port of (sb)cl for iOS, not like mocl but rather something you can run from the command line if you ssh to the device. i'd use it like all the time but it's still probably too much work to justify blap blap blap blip blep
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2015-05-24T10:30:02Z jackdaniel: someone run ecl on ios, but idk the details
2015-05-24T10:30:12Z loz1: how do i get string from string-stream?
2015-05-24T10:30:32Z |3b|: jackdaniel: isn't art just a different runtime for dalvik bytecode? (possibly with some AOT translation at install time)
2015-05-24T10:30:59Z loz1: oh, found it, nvm)
2015-05-24T10:31:17Z |3b| at least couldn't find any info about any new bytecode format to go with ART for the small amount i looked when it was announced
2015-05-24T10:31:58Z jackdaniel: |3b|: yes, sorry. According to this you're right http://source.android.com/devices/tech/dalvik/index.html
2015-05-24T10:32:22Z jackdaniel: it's DEX compatible
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2015-05-24T10:33:21Z nydel: oh i found the ecl project in git, thanks jackdaniel
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2015-05-24T10:35:11Z jackdaniel: nydel: if you'll actually build it and run page on wiki https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/wikis/home under tutorials would be much appreciated :)
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2015-05-24T10:35:54Z nydel: will keep notes & report back if/when success
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2015-05-24T11:10:06Z arcaedox: hello???
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2015-05-24T11:14:42Z otwieracz: Hey.
2015-05-24T11:14:46Z otwieracz: Can I do something like:
2015-05-24T11:15:03Z otwieracz: (defmethod foo ((this bar) &key (another string))?
2015-05-24T11:15:12Z Shinmera: No.
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2015-05-24T11:15:31Z otwieracz: Hm.
2015-05-24T11:15:31Z Shinmera: Or at least it won't do what you think it would
2015-05-24T11:15:48Z otwieracz: Yes, I know that this won't work.
2015-05-24T11:15:53Z otwieracz: But is something like this possible?
2015-05-24T11:16:04Z Shinmera: If you write your own object system, anything is possible.
2015-05-24T11:16:09Z otwieracz: :)
2015-05-24T11:17:48Z Shinmera: What you can do is delegate to a secondary method that has the keyword argument as a required argument.
2015-05-24T11:18:00Z Shinmera: *secondary generic function
2015-05-24T11:18:12Z jackdaniel: what is a difference between (block nil …) and (progn …) is only that block will catch return statement?
2015-05-24T11:18:29Z jackdaniel: it wasnt very grammatical question
2015-05-24T11:18:30Z jackdaniel: ^_^
2015-05-24T11:18:44Z jackdaniel: difference between ... is only ...
2015-05-24T11:18:46Z Shinmera: clhs block
2015-05-24T11:18:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_block.htm
2015-05-24T11:19:08Z Shinmera: "block establishes a block named name and then evaluates forms as an implicit progn."
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2015-05-24T11:20:33Z jackdaniel: yes, I read that, hence my question to confirm if i understand correclty
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2015-05-24T11:24:17Z White_Flame: right, a progn doesn't establish a block
2015-05-24T11:25:11Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2015-05-24T12:34:16Z knobo: Where do I write my debug output if I want to see some messages in my repl from hunchentoot when a user access an url
2015-05-24T12:34:24Z knobo: from swank/slime
2015-05-24T12:34:59Z AeroNotix_ is now known as AeroNotix
2015-05-24T12:35:54Z pjb: knobo: you need to save the *standard-output* of the slime-repl first.
2015-05-24T12:36:14Z pjb: Since this is not done in swank, you would have to send a patch or do it by hand.
2015-05-24T12:36:18Z |3b|: you can use hunchentoot's logging facility and configure it to go to repl, or save the stream of the repl somewhere
2015-05-24T12:37:21Z |3b|: might also try *debug-io*
2015-05-24T12:37:30Z |3b|: (is that the right name?)
2015-05-24T12:37:40Z |3b|: clhs *debug-io*
2015-05-24T12:37:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_debug_.htm
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2015-05-24T12:37:59Z knobo: pjb: thank you
2015-05-24T12:38:07Z knobo: pjb: that's what I thought
2015-05-24T12:38:24Z knobo: |3b|: I'll try out *debug-io* too.
2015-05-24T12:39:09Z |3b|: that might go to inferior-lisp buffer (or wherever stdout of the lisp is if it wasn't started by slime) though, unless you configured slime to redirect io globally
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2015-05-24T12:55:25Z oleo: what about *trace-output*
2015-05-24T12:56:13Z pjb: all bets are off when working from other threads.
2015-05-24T12:56:37Z pjb: Swank works from its own threads, so its special variables have thread local bindings.
2015-05-24T12:56:52Z pjb: Therefore you often revert to *inferior-lisp*.
2015-05-24T12:59:49Z otwieracz: TEST> (cl-json:encode-json-plist-to-string '(:foo bar :car (:mar zar)))
2015-05-24T12:59:53Z otwieracz: "{\"foo\":\"bar\",\"car\":[\"mar\",\"zar\"]}"
2015-05-24T12:59:57Z otwieracz: Why nested plist is no longer plist in json?
2015-05-24T13:01:33Z pjb: because json has a bad a defective ontology.
2015-05-24T13:01:35Z nyef: ... Because it matches array syntax and there's no explicit override?
2015-05-24T13:01:53Z pjb: use sexps!
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2015-05-24T13:03:04Z otwieracz: OK, let's say it different.
2015-05-24T13:03:06Z knobo: I think the only lisp expression that should become an array are vectors
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2015-05-24T13:03:34Z otwieracz: I need to have nested plists to be converted to hashes, too.
2015-05-24T13:03:50Z pjb: what about lists of homogeneous items?
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2015-05-24T13:04:08Z pjb: otwieracz: that could help this json library.
2015-05-24T13:04:24Z pjb: otwieracz: there's also the choice of using a different library, they tend to differ on such details.
2015-05-24T13:04:45Z knobo: hash-tables is not so good for json, because json strucure is often not so big.
2015-05-24T13:04:53Z otwieracz: WHat are homogeneous items?
2015-05-24T13:05:06Z pjb: items of the same type.
2015-05-24T13:05:16Z pjb: T, hence the above result.
2015-05-24T13:05:18Z knobo: If I have a json object with more then 500 keys, then I'd use a hash
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2015-05-24T13:07:15Z knobo: If lists are in any circumstance converted to an array, you are in trouble.
2015-05-24T13:07:33Z knobo: sorry, when converting from sexp to json
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2015-05-24T13:10:19Z nyef: As a long-time user of ST-JSON, I beg to differ.
2015-05-24T13:10:50Z otwieracz: Hm.
2015-05-24T13:11:05Z otwieracz: I see that alexandria:plist-hash-table is not recursive :(
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2015-05-24T13:13:58Z nyef: Because plists themselves are not a discriminable type.
2015-05-24T13:14:21Z nyef: If you're adding a plist as a value on a plist, you need to do the conversion then and there.
2015-05-24T13:14:43Z pjb: nyef: (and (evenp (length list)) (loop for (k v) on list by (function cddr) always (symbolp k)))
2015-05-24T13:15:33Z nyef: pjb: (this is not a property list)
2015-05-24T13:15:38Z pjb: (defun plistp (list) (and (evenp (length list)) (loop for k on list by (function cddr) always (symbolp (car k)))))
2015-05-24T13:15:42Z pjb: but this is.
2015-05-24T13:16:07Z pjb: (deftype plist () `(and list (satisfies plistp)))
2015-05-24T13:16:35Z nyef: That detects if something /has the form of/ a plist, but it's useless for determining if something that shares form with a plist /is actually intended to be/ a plist.
2015-05-24T13:16:38Z pjb: now actually, this and is not ordered, so you would still want to test for listp in plistp to avoid the error.
2015-05-24T13:17:29Z pjb: nyef: wrong.  plist is clearly defined: property list n. 1. a list containing an even number of elements that are alternating names (sometimes called indicators or keys) and values (sometimes called properties). When there is more than one name and  value pair with the identical name in a property list, the first such pair determines the property. 2. (of a symbol) the component of the symbol containing a property list.
2015-05-24T13:17:29Z pjb:  
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2015-05-24T13:20:01Z nyef: ... I'm also getting the distinct impression that plist keys aren't required to be symbols.
2015-05-24T13:20:28Z |3b|: strings seem valid as well from reading the glossary, if not convenient to use
2015-05-24T13:20:53Z pjb: nyef: a-list can have any keys but not plists.
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2015-05-24T13:21:23Z nyef: pjb: Your source for this assertion?
2015-05-24T13:23:31Z nyef: I'm not seeing any such restriction in the descriptions for GETF and GET-PROPERTIES.
2015-05-24T13:24:11Z pjb: nyef: because plists are used for &key parameters, and there they have to be symbols.
2015-05-24T13:24:30Z |3b|: only restrictions i saw were "identical as in EQ" and glossary for identfier saying symbol or string
2015-05-24T13:24:39Z pjb: Otherwise, agreed, type T is acceptable.
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2015-05-24T13:25:58Z nyef: I... fail to see how their use with &key parameters is a restriction on plists generally, and not merely the plists used with keyword parameters?
2015-05-24T13:27:00Z nyef: Also, you still haven't addressed the issue of having a list that Just Happens to look like a plist, yet shouldn't be transformed as such for whatever reason.
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2015-05-24T13:33:13Z |3b|: i guess 7.1.1 describes something as being identical to both property list and &key, which arguably implies plist and &key are identical, and &key is limited to symbols for keys... bit of a convoluted argument though
2015-05-24T13:33:47Z |3b| still agrees that length of a list shouldn't cause it to be translated differently though
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2015-05-24T13:34:47Z |3b|: but if it weren't for questions like that, we probably wouldn't have quite as many json libs :/
2015-05-24T13:35:37Z |3b|: (we'd probably still too many though, since half of them seem to be worried about being faster instead of disagreeing about APIs)
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2015-05-24T13:38:59Z nyef: Mmm. I could care less about JSON speed right now, my bottlenecks are very obviously elsewhere.
2015-05-24T13:39:55Z |3b|: yeah, presumably also true of the people who wrote the libs they considered too slow :)
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2015-05-24T13:43:12Z nyef: My requirement when selecting a JSON library was that it be able to unambiguously represent every JSON structure in Lisp, so that I could distinguish between false, null, the empty list, and a field simply not being present.
2015-05-24T13:43:19Z nyef: s/list/array/
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2015-05-24T13:44:39Z nyef: Part of why I needed that flexibility is because so many json libraries (and not just in Lisp) don't have it, and there are several failure patterns... And I needed some level of interoperability.
2015-05-24T13:45:28Z nyef: When your JSON library can't represent the difference between null and field-not-present, what do you do when trying to talk to a system which has different semantics for each case?
2015-05-24T13:45:51Z nyef: How do you represent an empty list if NIL is transformed to false?
2015-05-24T13:46:47Z nyef: How much time does your application SPEND doing JSON transforms, anyway?
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2015-05-24T13:50:50Z ehu: nyef: which JSON library do you use?
2015-05-24T13:51:00Z ehu: ah. ST-JSON.
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2015-05-24T13:56:17Z nyef: I then have a couple of layers on top of that, things like binding macros for easier access to object fields, a parsing system that produces consistent error messages when things aren't the right type or don't have the right format, and so on.
2015-05-24T13:56:34Z nyef: And I use APPLY #'ST-JSON:JSO a whole awful lot.
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2015-05-24T14:13:04Z |3b|: i think one of the 'fast' json libs was motivated by things like talking to a local nosql DB, which probably involved more time spent on JSON than something like a web API usually would
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2015-05-24T14:32:11Z jackdaniel: hmm, a mystery - can't find definition of do in ecl ^_^
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2015-05-24T14:45:26Z nyef: jackdaniel: Even in the C code?
2015-05-24T14:46:50Z jackdaniel: yes, but it might be hidden under some grossy name tough
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2015-05-24T14:48:16Z beach: I have problems finding things in SBCL.  Trying to grep for (say) "defmacro mumble" won't work because it is sometimes "defmacro-mundanely mumble" or something like that.
2015-05-24T14:48:42Z jackdaniel: beach: M-. often works with sbcl
2015-05-24T14:48:47Z jackdaniel: even on mundane macros
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2015-05-24T14:48:54Z nyef: beach: "def.*mumble"
2015-05-24T14:49:21Z beach: Right, once I know what the possibilities are, I can figure it out, of course.
2015-05-24T14:49:26Z nyef: beach: To the point where sometimes toplevel MACROLET forms are called DEF.
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2015-05-24T14:54:33Z pjb: anyways, JSON is a joke. Joke Sexps On Newbies.
2015-05-24T14:54:41Z jackdaniel: how gross would be defining local syntax for macro like this - http://paste.lisp.org/display/148604
2015-05-24T14:54:56Z jackdaniel: (introducing {} and [])
2015-05-24T14:55:07Z pjb: eg. try to send an id from Rails to Java with JSON  and trip on bignums. :-)
2015-05-24T14:55:09Z pjb: Pfft!
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2015-05-24T14:55:52Z pjb: jackdaniel: gross enough. You can do it without such syntax.
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2015-05-24T14:56:20Z nyef: pjb: Yes, largely due to the underlying numeric format not being specified as IEEE double-float.
2015-05-24T14:56:55Z nyef: Hope you weren't sending credit card numbers that way! (-:
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2015-05-24T14:57:34Z nyef: (Okay, it might have been single-float that tended to lose digits in credit-card numbers, I just remember that ONE of the formats does.)
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2015-05-24T15:00:37Z jackdaniel: pjb: it would be even easier doing without such syntax - I'm experimenting and try to find easy to scan (as in reading code) additions
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2015-05-24T15:02:53Z pjb: jackdaniel: words are easier to scan.
2015-05-24T15:03:05Z pjb: jackdaniel: that's the occident contribution to the world.
2015-05-24T15:03:14Z pjb: duh!
2015-05-24T15:03:23Z pjb: (5000+ years!)
2015-05-24T15:03:44Z jackdaniel: words are interpolated with syntax
2015-05-24T15:04:02Z pjb: "words are interpolated with syntax" what syntax???
2015-05-24T15:04:12Z pjb: I see only words there.
2015-05-24T15:04:23Z jackdaniel: you've used "( + ! )" two sentences earlier
2015-05-24T15:04:30Z pjb: Not: ([words] {are} {interpolated} /with/ [syntax])
2015-05-24T15:04:36Z jackdaniel: next, you used "\" and ?"
2015-05-24T15:04:51Z pjb: but you didn't, making my point.
2015-05-24T15:05:09Z jackdaniel: so we both make each other points ;-)
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2015-05-24T15:22:05Z Shinmera: Huzzah. https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TmpFeA==
2015-05-24T15:23:20Z |3b|: that using qt for image loading?
2015-05-24T15:23:25Z Shinmera: Yes.
2015-05-24T15:23:43Z Shinmera: JPG, PNG, GIF, TIFF, and BMP is good enough for me for a start.
2015-05-24T15:25:09Z |3b|: yeah, tga and dds are the main other things i could think of wanting
2015-05-24T15:25:28Z Shinmera: I don't have any of those myself. I do have ORA files though, so I might do something for that.
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2015-05-24T15:25:38Z |3b|: though always nice to have a program around that would recognize whatever random old format i happen across
2015-05-24T15:25:54Z pjb: |3b|: you mean, like file(1)?
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2015-05-24T15:26:21Z |3b|: pjb: specifically decoding and displaying image formats
2015-05-24T15:26:44Z |3b|: file(1) is useful for the cases where i need to find another program to load it though
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2015-05-24T15:43:11Z failproofshark: 6hello
2015-05-24T15:43:35Z failproofshark: hello, rather
2015-05-24T15:43:50Z oleo: hello failproofshark
2015-05-24T15:44:42Z failproofshark: how are things oleo ?
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2015-05-24T15:46:32Z oleo: fine failproofshark, my legs hurt a bit and feet (we played soccer yesterweek) i overstrained some parts i think, otherwise really ok
2015-05-24T15:47:00Z oleo: yourself ?
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2015-05-24T15:47:42Z failproofshark: i'm doing well. just editing some cover letters and applications and thinking what sort of project to do next
2015-05-24T15:47:49Z oleo: i just cooked chicken wings with potatoe (in oil) and made some carrot salad (with winegar)
2015-05-24T15:48:15Z oleo: this time i didn't overburn anything, and it really was delicious...
2015-05-24T15:48:19Z oleo: lol
2015-05-24T15:48:26Z oleo: :)
2015-05-24T15:48:40Z failproofshark: hah, sounds good. i should scrounge up some breakfsat myself
2015-05-24T15:48:52Z oleo: jep do that!
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2015-05-24T15:50:19Z oleo: normally carrot salad is for winter they say....dunno it still tastes good....
2015-05-24T15:50:33Z oleo: maybe not in high summer, but it's not that hot yet....
2015-05-24T15:52:41Z oleo: at least not so hot insides, outsides it gets pretty warm here (germany)
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2015-05-24T17:55:55Z devon: Anyone know of a format specifier decoder?
2015-05-24T17:56:04Z devon: ... and explainer?
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2015-05-24T17:58:42Z Bike: devon: try (macroexpand-1 '(formatter format-string-here))
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2015-05-24T18:06:05Z devon: CCL macroexpands format into a longer expression with the exact same format specifier string.
2015-05-24T18:07:42Z Bike: huh, so it does. that kinda sucks.
2015-05-24T18:08:43Z Bike: you get more meaningful output on sbcl, probably other ones.
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2015-05-24T19:05:23Z guaqua`: hmm. is it really still so that you cannot specialize hash function and equals for hash-tables? or is this just generally non-portable?
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2015-05-24T19:07:08Z pjb:  guaqua`: it will never be possible in ANSI Common Lisp.  The standard does not change.
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2015-05-24T19:07:59Z pjb: guaqua: this is actually very good, because it means that you can know what you have to do yourself, and what you can rely on the compilers on for.
2015-05-24T19:08:25Z guaqua: not contesting that. was just sort of surprised once again. coming back to common lisp from a hiatus... :/
2015-05-24T19:08:32Z pjb: guaqua: so the really ludicruous key word of your sentence is "STILL".  If you wanted it, you should have implemented it last year already!
2015-05-24T19:08:59Z guaqua: haha. true that. :)
2015-05-24T19:09:18Z pjb: guaqua: and again, the point is that when you come back to CL from a hiatus, you don't have to learn a NEW language, you just resume development, with all your old programs still working.
2015-05-24T19:10:06Z guaqua: not questioning that, either
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2015-05-24T19:10:50Z guaqua: someone was doing some "unification" work on the api level with common lisp's collections. someone working at google
2015-05-24T19:11:07Z pjb: basically: Common Lisp is a nice smoont sailing, while other programming is Sisyphus' hill.
2015-05-24T19:11:37Z pjb: unification: https://xkcd.com/927/
2015-05-24T19:11:50Z pjb: s/smoont/smooth/
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2015-05-24T19:24:22Z pjb: (set-syntax-from-char #\] #\))
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2015-05-24T19:28:05Z guaqua: this as the one i was thinking: https://github.com/fare/lisp-interface-library
2015-05-24T19:28:14Z guaqua: has anyone used it?
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2015-05-24T19:31:54Z Adlai: "LIL notably relies on ASDF 3.1's asdf-package-system. whereby instead of dependencies being listed in a central .asd file, each source file has a defpackage form from which the dependencies are deduced." !
2015-05-24T19:32:31Z Adlai has been living in a cave, evidently
2015-05-24T19:36:04Z guaqua: that sounds like magic. have to dig up the manual. (been in a cave as well - although probably a different one)
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2015-05-24T19:38:03Z Shinmera: I'll take a central ASD over "one package per file" any day.
2015-05-24T19:39:22Z nyef: I'll take one-package-per-file any day. That bit came from the cave that I've been living in for the past few years.
2015-05-24T19:39:49Z Grue`: you can have one package per file *and* central ASD
2015-05-24T19:40:01Z nyef: Sure, but then you're duplicating the dependency information.
2015-05-24T19:40:41Z Grue`: no, because my package definitions don't import symbols from every library i actually use
2015-05-24T19:41:41Z nyef: You don't have to :USE a package in order to note the dependency, even in DEFPACKAGE.
2015-05-24T19:42:11Z nyef: :IMPORT-FROM with a package name and no symbols works well enough.
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2015-05-24T19:50:11Z |3b| wonders which implementations define the behavior of modifying *terminal-io* as required by the spec
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2015-05-24T19:57:26Z |3b|: though elsewhere it says user programs aren't allowed to modify it anyway
2015-05-24T19:58:16Z pjb: "The effect of changing the value of *terminal-io*, either by binding or assignment, is implementation-defined."  this means implementations must document it.
2015-05-24T19:58:33Z pjb: not that programs are not allowed to bind or assign it.
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2015-05-24T20:07:17Z |3b|: right
2015-05-24T20:08:19Z nyef: Portable programs, however, would be unable to bind or assign it: Implementation-defined behavior is, by definition, not portable.
2015-05-24T20:08:27Z |3b| already closed the page, but elsewhere it says user programs may modify the io variables except *terminal-io*
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2015-05-24T20:09:11Z |3b|: clhs 21.1.2
2015-05-24T20:09:11Z specbot: Stream Variables: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/21_ab.htm
2015-05-24T20:09:16Z |3b|: ^ there
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2015-05-24T20:52:27Z jackdaniel: if I want to write simplified destructuring-bind (with multiple clause) and want to make parallell variant (like let in comparison to let*) - is this pseudocode correct? http://paste.lisp.org/display/148616
2015-05-24T20:56:05Z pjb: yes
2015-05-24T20:56:11Z jackdaniel: thank you
2015-05-24T20:57:21Z pjb: one thing: you may want to deal properly with declarations.
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2015-05-24T20:57:45Z pjb: For this, you need to parse the forms to extract the declarations, and then insert them in the right let or destructuring-bind forms.
2015-05-24T20:58:20Z pjb: destructuring-bind lambda-list expression declaration* form* ; <-- notice declaration
2015-05-24T20:59:32Z jackdaniel: ok, thanks for pointing this. I saw it being handled in metabang-bind, but now it's more clear
2015-05-24T21:02:30Z jackdaniel: so if declaration is about init-form, it should be under let, if it's about store forms it should be under destructuring-bind
2015-05-24T21:02:54Z jackdaniel: appropriate destructuring-bind°
2015-05-24T21:04:04Z pjb: yes.
2015-05-24T21:04:27Z pjb: but it will be about the variables in the store forms.
2015-05-24T21:04:51Z pjb: (let ((a b)) (declare (integer b)) …) is rather useless.
2015-05-24T21:05:11Z jackdaniel: right
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2015-05-24T21:25:04Z p_l: Shinmera: lol @ halftone having yukkuri git commit messages :D
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2015-05-24T21:27:52Z Shinmera: p_l: It's my "initial commit" message for repos nowadays.
2015-05-24T21:27:56Z p_l: :)
2015-05-24T21:28:55Z Shinmera: Sadly I stumbled upon an inconsistency in Qt's method naming conventions, which forced me to make Q+'s name conversion a bit less nice. There's a method called set_widget, which was translated to set-widget before this, but that clashes with the setWidget method.
2015-05-24T21:29:29Z Shinmera: So I had to remove the conversion of underscores to dashes, which is a backwards compatibility breaking change. :/
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2015-05-24T22:27:10Z aeth: Will bad things happen to me if I just manipulate text from a file into an s-expression form (currently by using a mix of cl-ppcre and format) and then run READ-FROM-STRING on it?
2015-05-24T22:27:39Z aeth: or is it safe?
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2015-05-24T22:30:57Z loz1: anybody got ninep lib by chance?
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2015-05-24T22:31:57Z aeth: Oh I see where bad things happen. When there's not a clear distinction of what should become a symbol and what should become a string. Nevermind
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2015-05-24T23:11:41Z pjb: aeth: it would depend on where the data comes from, but if it's not already a sexp, you should be very suspicious of it.
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2015-05-25T00:14:13Z pillton: aeth: You should be suspicious of sexps too. e.g. #.(cl-fad:delete-directory-and-files "/")
2015-05-25T00:15:53Z pillton: I think pjb has a tokenizer.
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2015-05-25T02:13:47Z aeth: pillton: what's #. do?
2015-05-25T02:14:29Z pjb: clhs #.
2015-05-25T02:14:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhf.htm
2015-05-25T02:14:48Z pjb: clhs *read-supress*
2015-05-25T02:14:48Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for *read-supress*.
2015-05-25T02:14:53Z pjb: clhs *read-suppress*
2015-05-25T02:14:53Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_rd_sup.htm
2015-05-25T02:15:00Z aeth: oh wow #.
2015-05-25T02:16:21Z aeth: so read-from-string "#.(+ 1 1)" is 2
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2015-05-25T02:41:56Z MichaelGreeves: was lisp invented by a gay revolutionary programmer?
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2015-05-25T02:48:10Z nyef: was trolling invented by a bored psychopath?
2015-05-25T02:48:37Z nyef: (You know what? Don't answer that.)
2015-05-25T02:49:25Z p_l: while your minutiae knowledge about minority slang might be impressive to other purveyors of homosexual and/or linguistic lore, it's rather unrelated and out of context, and worse, easily fixed by quick internet search
2015-05-25T02:53:48Z theos: p_l i dont think he can understand what you just said. unless that was the purpose :P
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2015-05-25T02:54:25Z MichaelGreeves: i am not a psychopath
2015-05-25T02:54:35Z MichaelGreeves: i find 4 year old girls sexually attractive
2015-05-25T02:55:02Z isaac_rks: fascinating
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2015-05-25T03:08:47Z p_l: theos: sometimes I like being wordy
2015-05-25T03:08:56Z p_l: confuses the hell out of some people
2015-05-25T03:09:09Z theos: :D
2015-05-25T03:09:30Z p_l recalls a certain time when #lisp out-trolled a troll by taking his question about teledildonics seriously and running away with it
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2015-05-25T03:10:25Z theos: we have trolls every now and then. i dont understand why they even bother joining...
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2015-05-25T03:11:40Z p_l: theos: bored teens with nothing better to do
2015-05-25T03:12:08Z p_l: could go to 4chan and be schooled, but it's probably too edgy for them
2015-05-25T03:12:20Z theos: p_l their parents should be punished!
2015-05-25T03:14:03Z p_l: or maybe just made aware
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2015-05-25T03:15:14Z theos: punishment is for being unaware. atleast fine them. paying big enough fine is a good motivational tool
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2015-05-25T03:17:11Z defaultxr: being made aware is probably punishment enough for both of them, considering that person's terrible trolling skills
2015-05-25T03:17:15Z pillton thanks whomever restored clhs.
2015-05-25T03:19:20Z theos: i once fined 5 yr old kids who didnt have all the books in their bags. next day their parents packed all the books... so to counter that i fined bags exceeding a certain weight. this taught their parents and kids to learn how to read the timetable :)
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2015-05-25T03:31:31Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-05-25T03:31:53Z pillton: G'day beach.
2015-05-25T03:32:03Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-05-25T03:33:00Z failproofshark: hello beach
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2015-05-25T03:40:46Z beach: Hmm, yesterday I wrote some code, only to convince myself today that it was unnecessary.  Not much code, but still.
2015-05-25T03:42:16Z nyef: beach: Sometimes you have to write code before you can realize that it's not needed.
2015-05-25T03:42:46Z pillton: That is good! There is no better feeling then learning more about your problem.
2015-05-25T03:42:55Z beach: nyef: Yes, you are right.  But it feels like wasted effort.
2015-05-25T03:43:46Z beach: pillton: I agree.  And in this case (bootstrapping) it is definitely knowledge that could not be acquired by reading existing material.
2015-05-25T03:45:37Z beach: It is definitely a good feeling in general to remove special-purpose code that turns out not to be needed.
2015-05-25T03:46:03Z beach: In my attempts at bootstrapping CLOS before I had first-class global environments, there is a lot of that kind of code that I can now remove.
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2015-05-25T03:47:03Z pillton: Well, I am in the camp that if you really want to comprehend all of the issues then you need to implement it. Your experience doesn't surprise me.
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2015-05-25T03:48:37Z nyef: On my Forth bootstrapping front, I managed to completely replace the input handling used by one of my chosen host implementations, getting very close parity between both hosted build options and the native build option, and allowing me to split the core system up into separate files. A major milestone. And now I'm ready to take a break from it again. (-:
2015-05-25T03:49:32Z beach: So your Forth system is written in Forth?
2015-05-25T03:49:41Z beach: ... almost entirely?
2015-05-25T03:49:54Z nyef: Except for the makefile gluing things together, and the various assembler bits, yes.
2015-05-25T03:50:04Z beach: Nice.
2015-05-25T03:51:47Z nyef: The original incarnation was an assembler source file, which quickly spawned a chunk of Forth source on disk that needed to be compiled by the system on startup. Eventually I had the entire build process self-hosting.
2015-05-25T03:52:28Z nyef: This incarnation is entirely built by Forth code executed by a host implementation.
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2015-05-25T03:56:10Z beach: Careful about taking a break.  Though maybe you don't have the problem I do.  When I take a break from something, I tend to forget what I did.  I must therefore be very careful and document what I did.
2015-05-25T03:57:39Z nyef: I've been keeping a log, and wrapped up today with a list of five possible next steps and a reiteration of the longer-term goals. I'm not too worried on that front. (-:
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2015-05-25T03:58:44Z beach: Good!
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2015-05-25T04:03:26Z beach: Is the situation for Forth similar to that of Common Lisp in that people tend to assume that you must bootstrap from some lower-level language like C?
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2015-05-25T04:04:09Z nyef: Not really. There's a long tradition of what are known as "metacompilers", which are basically cross-compilers that can build a full target system.
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2015-05-25T04:04:35Z beach: I see.
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2015-05-25T04:04:46Z nyef: Not every implementation uses one, and they can have vastly different capabilities, but it's a long-established technique.
2015-05-25T04:04:57Z Bike: i don't think many forth users would consider C "lower-level", either
2015-05-25T04:05:08Z beach: Oh, that's possible.
2015-05-25T04:05:39Z nyef: C doesn't have defining words (macros): Of COURSE it's lower-level. d-:
2015-05-25T04:06:14Z Bike: plus it has dynamic memory allocation. so hoighty toighty
2015-05-25T04:06:27Z nyef: Tell that to the ANS Memory-Allocation word list.
2015-05-25T04:08:17Z nyef: Also, exception-handling, local variables, namespaces...
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2015-05-25T07:13:43Z spacebat`: some days my slime repl buffer gets very long and becomes laggy
2015-05-25T07:13:58Z Quadrescence: clear the buffer
2015-05-25T07:14:07Z spacebat`: yeah what's the command for that/
2015-05-25T07:14:16Z Grue`: C-c M-o
2015-05-25T07:14:26Z spacebat`: of course, comint-truncate-buffer doesn't work
2015-05-25T07:14:32Z Quadrescence: w/e is in the toolbar
2015-05-25T07:14:40Z spacebat`: beautiful thanks
2015-05-25T07:14:45Z Quadrescence: u/w
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2015-05-25T07:22:48Z White_Flame: I've only noticed it get laggy when there are huge linewraps going on (10s of thousands of characters etc)
2015-05-25T07:22:54Z White_Flame: but yes, clearing the buffer fixes that
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2015-05-25T07:37:13Z ggole: Emacs doesn't handle displaying long lines well.
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2015-05-25T07:46:18Z Monacoo: Is there a writeup comparing/contrasting Racket vs. Lisp?
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2015-05-25T07:48:42Z schjetne: Monacoo: nothing comes to my mind, but you could start out with comparing Scheme and Common Lisp.
2015-05-25T07:48:43Z Monacoo: Common Lisp, that is
2015-05-25T07:50:33Z oleo: there's lisp-in-small-pieces
2015-05-25T07:50:59Z oleo: + there's a site where some sicp stuff is coded in cl
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2015-05-25T07:53:17Z beach: Monacoo: To begin with, Common Lisp in a language whereas Racket is an system.
2015-05-25T07:53:28Z oleo: http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2007/06/21/sicp-section-11
2015-05-25T07:54:08Z beach: Monacoo: Common Lisp has an international standard, independent of the implementations of it, whereas Racket does not.
2015-05-25T07:55:08Z theos: whoever thought the name "common lisp" deserves the "best oxymoron" prize :P and somehow i just noticed that
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2015-05-25T07:56:07Z beach: Monacoo: Common Lisp has several implementations to choose from.  If one implementation does not satisfy your needs, you can switch to a different one.
2015-05-25T07:57:37Z Monacoo: will Racket load Common Lisp?
2015-05-25T07:57:59Z beach: Monacoo: Like I said, Common Lisp is a programming language, so it can't be loaded.
2015-05-25T07:58:35Z beach: Monacoo: And it is unlikely that any implementation of Common Lisp can be "loaded" by Racket, whatever that might mean.
2015-05-25T08:00:04Z ggole: Racket source and CL source are not compatible in either direction.
2015-05-25T08:00:07Z ggole: Not even close.
2015-05-25T08:00:10Z beach has the impression that what he is saying is falling on deaf ears.
2015-05-25T08:02:57Z jackdaniel: drmeister: around?
2015-05-25T08:03:18Z Monacoo: When I want to run a Python program, there's an executable file in /usr/bin/python that runs to run my Python program.  Is there a /usr/bin/common-lisp analogous, in whatever Linux subdir it might live?
2015-05-25T08:03:35Z jackdaniel: Monacoo: there is, check out project "cl-launch" to do it portably
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2015-05-25T08:04:26Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for drmeister: regarding clos, I've popped today on it - clos is part of ecl core and it's declared in main.d file, so it's compiled-in with library
2015-05-25T08:04:26Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell drmeister when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-05-25T08:12:15Z Monacoo: beach: "1 Welcome to Racket // Depending on how you look at it, Racket is a programming language—a dialect of Lisp and a descendant of Scheme;" . . . I thought you said above: " <beach> Monacoo: To begin with, Common Lisp in a language whereas Racket is an system."
2015-05-25T08:13:08Z beach: Monacoo: Whatever.
2015-05-25T08:13:55Z Monacoo: Oh, you meant that "system" is meant to include programming languages?
2015-05-25T08:13:59Z jackdaniel: dr racket is an ide afaik, while racket is a language (but not 100% sure)
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2015-05-25T08:14:37Z Monacoo: jackdaniel: yes, DRRacket seems to be an IDE.
2015-05-25T08:14:40Z beach: Monacoo: The important message was that Common Lisp is not a system or an implementation.  It is a standard, defined by an independent standards organization.
2015-05-25T08:15:11Z beach: Monacoo: Whether you consider single-implementation programming systems to define "a programming language" or not is not terribly important here.
2015-05-25T08:15:55Z Monacoo: beach: ah, ok.  Thus, then, does Racket include any implementation of this Common Lisp standard?
2015-05-25T08:16:08Z beach: Not at all.
2015-05-25T08:16:32Z beach: Like ggole said, they are quite different.
2015-05-25T08:17:16Z Monacoo: is there any Common Lisp implementation comparable to Racket?
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2015-05-25T08:17:48Z Monacoo: to Racket as "a dialect of Lisp", as they put it.
2015-05-25T08:18:00Z jackdaniel: Monacoo: there are many CL implementations (by CL I mean Common Lisp) - SBCL, CCL, ECL, CLISP and other
2015-05-25T08:18:19Z jackdaniel: if you target x86 desktop computers, I'd suggest SBCL or CCL
2015-05-25T08:18:24Z loke: Monacoo: It's a Scheme
2015-05-25T08:18:39Z beach: Monacoo: No Common Lisp implementation can be comparable to Racket because the Common Lisp language is quite different from the language that Racket is based on.
2015-05-25T08:18:59Z jackdaniel: if you want ide, there isn't big choice - you can use either emacs or vim (with little effort)
2015-05-25T08:19:16Z Monacoo: . . . aaand Scheme does not a Common Lisp make, eh?
2015-05-25T08:19:33Z beach: Monacoo: Scheme and Common Lisp are very different languages.
2015-05-25T08:19:54Z Monacoo: sounds like they divorced, lol
2015-05-25T08:20:07Z Monacoo: acrimonious divorce, lol
2015-05-25T08:20:23Z jackdaniel: that is in my understanding of lisp history true ^_^
2015-05-25T08:20:35Z Monacoo: :)  heh heh
2015-05-25T08:20:36Z jackdaniel: but they are quite different
2015-05-25T08:20:41Z loke: Monacoo: they have less in common than Java and Ruby has.
2015-05-25T08:20:44Z jackdaniel: and by quite I mean very different
2015-05-25T08:20:46Z beach: Monacoo: It is more complicated than that.
2015-05-25T08:21:05Z Monacoo: interested.  good to know.  i'm glad i asked.
2015-05-25T08:21:20Z Monacoo: s/interested/interesting/
2015-05-25T08:21:24Z jackdaniel: !pcl
2015-05-25T08:21:25Z beach: Monacoo: Scheme was created as a minimalist Lisp language with emphasis on lexical bindings.
2015-05-25T08:21:35Z jackdaniel: hm
2015-05-25T08:21:42Z theos: ,pcl
2015-05-25T08:21:51Z jackdaniel: pcl
2015-05-25T08:21:57Z jackdaniel: minion died
2015-05-25T08:21:59Z beach: Monacoo: Common Lisp took inspiration from Scheme with respect to lexical bindings, but Common Lisp is a very big language compared to Scheme.
2015-05-25T08:22:15Z dim: including S7RS?
2015-05-25T08:22:22Z dim: IIRC S7RS is bigger than CL
2015-05-25T08:22:22Z beach: minion: Please tell jackdaniel about PCL.
2015-05-25T08:22:22Z minion: jackdaniel: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2015-05-25T08:22:30Z theos: minion: please tell Monacoo about pcl
2015-05-25T08:22:30Z minion: Monacoo: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2015-05-25T08:22:30Z theos: :<
2015-05-25T08:22:37Z beach: heh.
2015-05-25T08:22:56Z jackdaniel: Monacoo: read first few chapters to get a feel of cl
2015-05-25T08:24:09Z dim: or better yet find a one-day projet to do in CL, maybe something you (or someone else) already implemented in another language and that you can port
2015-05-25T08:24:59Z dim: e.g. one of my first endeavors was rewriting Norvig's sudoku solver from python to CL, as seen in http://tapoueh.org/blog/2012/07/10-solving-sudoku and https://github.com/dimitri/sudoku
2015-05-25T08:25:09Z theos: i wouldnt suggest that book though. you need an enthusiastic author to convert people :P nobody does it better than Mr Graham. i would suggest On Lisp or ACL. even if its just the introduction. the way he builds up the hype!
2015-05-25T08:25:10Z dim: beware, beginner's code
2015-05-25T08:25:15Z beach: dim: R7RS seems to be around 88 pages long.
2015-05-25T08:25:36Z beach: dim: In what way do you think that is bigger than the Common Lisp standard?
2015-05-25T08:25:41Z dim: oh so maybe that was including SRI (or whatever they name modules)
2015-05-25T08:25:44Z jackdaniel wrote medical visit scheduler webapp with elephant persistant library
2015-05-25T08:26:14Z dim: beach: I juste remember reading people making fun of schemd R7RS from getting bigger than CL, I will admit never having done my homework there
2015-05-25T08:26:30Z wooden: in CL (print myobj) yields #<MYOBJ {1003A4CFB3}>.  i'd like to define myobj's "print-object" method to produce #<MYOBJ (value slot1) {1003A4CFB3}>, but i can't figure out how to get the memory address of the object to put in my custom string representation.  is this possible?
2015-05-25T08:26:56Z beach: clhs print-unreadable-object
2015-05-25T08:26:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_pr_unr.htm
2015-05-25T08:27:41Z beach: wooden: :identity t
2015-05-25T08:28:03Z dim: wooden: https://github.com/dimitri/pgcharts/blob/master/src/model.lisp#L91 might be useful
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2015-05-25T08:28:08Z Monacoo: I have a tiny app I could use as a jig for CL.  For the sake of illustration: let's say I wanted to code the Ncurses C library in CL . . . which CL implementation would be appropriate for that?
2015-05-25T08:28:27Z jackdaniel: Monacoo: each one with support of cffi
2015-05-25T08:28:33Z jackdaniel: it allows you to call any C code from lisp
2015-05-25T08:28:42Z jackdaniel: there is cffi wrapper for ncurses tough
2015-05-25T08:28:47Z jackdaniel: cl-ncurses afaikr
2015-05-25T08:28:52Z jackdaniel: s/afaikr/afair/
2015-05-25T08:28:52Z loke: Monacoo: all CL:s support CFFI
2015-05-25T08:29:06Z dim: you can use direct terminal mangling code with clisp
2015-05-25T08:29:29Z dim: but if you already have ncurses API code, cl-ncurses is better and works well with SBCL or CCL
2015-05-25T08:30:13Z jackdaniel: or cl-charms to avoid deprecated uffi
2015-05-25T08:30:37Z Monacoo: supposing I wanted to rewrite the C lib functions of Ncurses in CL ... which implement of CL would be good?
2015-05-25T08:31:22Z jackdaniel: Monacoo: each of them. by rewrite, you mean functions which use ncurses library, right?
2015-05-25T08:31:28Z jackdaniel: not rewriting ncurses by itself?
2015-05-25T08:32:14Z isaac_rks: who here form /g/
2015-05-25T08:32:26Z Monacoo: no, I don't mean a Lisp program hooking to the existing C lib functions.  I mean rewriting the C functions completely in a CL implementation.
2015-05-25T08:32:35Z loke: Monacoo: why would you?
2015-05-25T08:32:42Z wooden: beach: thanks!
2015-05-25T08:32:44Z wooden: dim: thanks!
2015-05-25T08:32:59Z jackdaniel: well, you want to rewrite ncurses library - it's a tough task
2015-05-25T08:33:41Z jackdaniel: you can in any CL implementation - CL is programming language like C
2015-05-25T08:33:49Z Monacoo: loke: I'm just using a hypothetical, in order to see which CL implementation would be good for a similar situation.
2015-05-25T08:34:12Z loke: Monacoo: why don't you tell us what your _real_ situation is? That way we'll be more able to help you out.
2015-05-25T08:34:27Z Monacoo: NDA forbids me.
2015-05-25T08:34:39Z jackdaniel: every implementation implements, as name suggests, language called Common Lisp - there might be bugs here and there, but gcc has bugs as well
2015-05-25T08:35:10Z jackdaniel: so it doesn't matter which implementation you choose, if you want to write in Common Lisp without implementation specific extensions
2015-05-25T08:35:27Z Monacoo: jackdaniel: you mean various implements of CL don't have specific orientations, focuses, strengths?
2015-05-25T08:35:28Z jackdaniel: sbcl/ccl are fastest from free implementations (at least on x86 platforms)
2015-05-25T08:35:43Z jackdaniel: they have, but all implement Common Lisp
2015-05-25T08:36:13Z jackdaniel: ecl easily interoperate with C language (you can even inline it) and is very portable, abcl works in JVM, so it interoperates with Java natively
2015-05-25T08:36:20Z White_Flame: for pushing bytes in/out a stream, and maintaining the internal state represented by those, there isn't going to be any differnce between implementations, besides speed/footprint
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2015-05-25T08:37:39Z White_Flame: there are a lot of compatibility libraries out there for dealing with beyond-spec features (threading, weak hashtables, sockets, etc).  Those implementations which are lacking features to support the portability libraries eventually get updated to par
2015-05-25T08:38:07Z White_Flame: sbcl & ccl are the primary go-tos
2015-05-25T08:38:19Z Monacoo: very well
2015-05-25T08:38:26Z White_Flame: SBCL is generally the fastest.  CCL is more mature on windows than SBCL
2015-05-25T08:38:29Z jackdaniel: Monacoo: it's pretty aged, but you may consult http://www.common-lisp.net/~dlw/LispSurvey.html
2015-05-25T08:38:31Z White_Flame: though SBCL is stable there now as well
2015-05-25T08:38:44Z White_Flame: (CCL is also well supported on Mac)
2015-05-25T08:38:44Z dim: Monacoo: I would advice you to start with CCL then later down the road have a look at SBCL
2015-05-25T08:38:48Z Monacoo: jackdaniel: thank you
2015-05-25T08:38:56Z dim: brew install clozure-cl
2015-05-25T08:39:05Z dim: or even visit the app store
2015-05-25T08:39:23Z p_l: SBCL tends to favour performance at the cost of memory use and compile times, but it can also provide very good information about many things when you encounter an error
2015-05-25T08:39:27Z Monacoo: dim: i'm Linux oriented, mostly
2015-05-25T08:39:40Z dim: ok, CCL is still the best to start with ;-)
2015-05-25T08:39:43Z p_l: CCL definitely has good position on Mac, and a bit better on windows. Also supports ARM.
2015-05-25T08:40:09Z dim: some years ago when even more a noob than today I did really appreciate the extra information and clarity of error messages in CCL
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2015-05-25T08:40:34Z Monacoo: good to hear
2015-05-25T08:40:47Z dim: nowadays I'm more used to SBCL and I want to use what I ship to my users, which is SBCL because it compiles down to faster code
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2015-05-25T08:44:20Z Monacoo: So, continuing with my illustration case (writing "Ncurses-like" functions in CL), why would, say SBCL, be a better tool than Racket?
2015-05-25T08:44:35Z jackdaniel: idk racket
2015-05-25T08:44:48Z Shinmera: Monacoo: It would be a better tool because you're in a Common Lisp channel.
2015-05-25T08:44:52Z jackdaniel: CL has rich standard with various supporting libraries, I think racket can't come in-par with it
2015-05-25T08:44:58Z Shinmera: If you ask the racket channel I'm sure they'll tell you otherwise.
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2015-05-25T08:45:29Z Monacoo: Shinmera: heh ;)
2015-05-25T08:45:30Z jackdaniel: Monacoo: if you want to consult broader lisp audience join ##lisp
2015-05-25T08:45:43Z jackdaniel: broader in sense not-only-cl
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2015-05-25T08:46:34Z oleo: hey there, delete-region buffer-test in package :drei-tests causes heap exhaustion
2015-05-25T08:46:52Z oleo: i tested all nested levels of the lets, it's the last one.....
2015-05-25T08:46:59Z oleo: which fails
2015-05-25T08:48:38Z oleo: i mean when it is deeply netsted obviously....
2015-05-25T08:49:11Z oleo: 5 levels seems ok
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2015-05-25T08:52:51Z beach: Monacoo: The day you decide to install some Common Lisp implementation, you should ask here first.  Many newbies do the wrong thing and then come here to figure out why their installation is not working.
2015-05-25T08:54:07Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: you were writing serie of chapters as supplement for PCL - do you have any link of these?
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2015-05-25T08:55:53Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: Not all of them are in that vein here, but the ones you mean should be identifiable by their title http://blog.tymoon.eu/tagged/common%20lisp
2015-05-25T08:56:20Z beach: oleo: There is something else going on.  It may just be that you don't allocate enough heap when you start up your Common Lisp system.
2015-05-25T08:56:55Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: so basically that are #c8, #c10 and #c11?
2015-05-25T08:57:04Z oleo: dynamic-space-size=3000
2015-05-25T08:57:05Z oleo: man
2015-05-25T08:57:19Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: Probably. C25 could also be one if you want some MOP introduction.
2015-05-25T08:57:20Z oleo: almost 2.5 gigs
2015-05-25T08:57:38Z Monacoo: beach: thanks for invite.  I'll be glad to ask for clues.
2015-05-25T08:58:02Z jackdaniel: Monacoo: and don't forget about Practical Common Lisp - it's a really nice introduction book
2015-05-25T08:58:27Z oleo: i just split the testcase in 2 halves, will see if it succeeds
2015-05-25T08:58:30Z Monacoo: jackdaniel: great; bookmarked it already.
2015-05-25T08:59:16Z jackdaniel: or if you want good summary of language (except clos, which isn't covered nicely there), you may read ANSI Common Lisp
2015-05-25T08:59:30Z jackdaniel: by Paul Graham
2015-05-25T08:59:58Z Monacoo: jackdaniel: thanks
2015-05-25T09:00:28Z oleo: nope
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2015-05-25T09:21:18Z oleo: allright, my dynamic-space size is only 1 Gb it seems
2015-05-25T09:21:32Z oleo: anyway i'm compiling a newer sbcl now.....
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2015-05-25T09:23:09Z beach: oleo: No need to compile a new SBCL to increase the heap size.
2015-05-25T09:23:19Z beach: oleo: It's a command-line argument.
2015-05-25T09:23:28Z oleo: eh ?
2015-05-25T09:23:41Z oleo: nope, the command line argument does not do anything for me....
2015-05-25T09:23:51Z oleo: it gets fixed at build-time
2015-05-25T09:23:55Z oleo: it seems
2015-05-25T09:24:26Z oleo: cause i specified --dynamic-space-size=3000 for the running one but it only shows 1 Gb
2015-05-25T09:25:15Z |3b|: try with space instead of =
2015-05-25T09:25:22Z oleo: ok
2015-05-25T09:25:27Z |3b|: --dynamic-space-size 3000
2015-05-25T09:27:27Z oleo: does loading many libs reduce the dynamic-space-size ?
2015-05-25T09:27:38Z beach: Sure.
2015-05-25T09:27:44Z beach: The code takes up memory.
2015-05-25T09:27:45Z oleo: hmm
2015-05-25T09:27:57Z |3b|: it doesn't reduce it, but it uses it
2015-05-25T09:28:05Z |3b|: so less is left for other things
2015-05-25T09:28:07Z oleo: but i have 4G of total memory in my system...
2015-05-25T09:28:11Z oleo: how much can i specify ?
2015-05-25T09:28:44Z |3b|: less than total memory is a good idea, unless you like using swap
2015-05-25T09:28:46Z beach: I would imagine as much as your OS will allow.
2015-05-25T09:28:52Z oleo: ok
2015-05-25T09:29:00Z ggole: So --dynamic-space-size=3000 is silently eaten? That doesn't seem right.
2015-05-25T09:30:04Z ggole: It seems that --any-arg-name=whatever is silently ignored.
2015-05-25T09:30:25Z oleo: jep ok i tried with --dynamic-space-size 3000 too and still (/ (dynamic-space-size) (expt 1024 2)) still shows 1 G
2015-05-25T09:30:41Z beach: ggole: I think it has to do with passing the unrecognized arguments to application code.
2015-05-25T09:30:44Z oleo: 1024 Mb actually
2015-05-25T09:30:48Z |3b|: ggole: i think it is --any-unrecognized-arg in general
2015-05-25T09:30:55Z ggole: Ah, hmm.
2015-05-25T09:31:14Z |3b|: user code could be looking for other args though, so hard to say complaining is the right thing to do in general
2015-05-25T09:31:28Z oleo: (/ (dynamic-space-size) (expt 1024 3)) => 1
2015-05-25T09:31:30Z oleo: 1 Gb
2015-05-25T09:31:32Z ggole: Yeah, seems like you'd get conflicts
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2015-05-25T09:31:59Z |3b|: oleo: are you running 32bit, and are there any warnings when it starts?
2015-05-25T09:32:11Z oleo: i'm running x86-64
2015-05-25T09:32:18Z oleo: no warnings
2015-05-25T09:32:51Z |3b|: (machine-type) says "X86-64"?
2015-05-25T09:33:22Z oleo: yes
2015-05-25T09:33:27Z oleo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/148643
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2015-05-25T09:34:08Z oleo: wait man wtf, version shows 1.2.11, i haven't installed that yet.....
2015-05-25T09:34:24Z oleo: i compiled mine for 1.2.8
2015-05-25T09:34:28Z oleo: w t f
2015-05-25T09:34:58Z oleo: i'm compiling 1.2.11 now!
2015-05-25T09:35:03Z oleo: it's not even completed
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2015-05-25T09:36:57Z oleo: something is wrong.....
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2015-05-25T09:43:52Z oleo: erm, seems i had an early 1.2.11 version already installed....
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2015-05-25T11:30:00Z jackdaniel is in fire - two issues closed today \o/ /probably put three another in a meantime, but fingers crossed/
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2015-05-25T11:30:51Z oleo: ?
2015-05-25T11:30:56Z oleo: which issues ?
2015-05-25T11:32:05Z jackdaniel: in ecl - run-program couldn't take stream for stderr, and clos didn't have correct nickname (what sounds trivial, but wasn't due to compiling-in clos to ecl lib)
2015-05-25T11:32:54Z jackdaniel: testing former now (latter already pushed to repository)
2015-05-25T11:38:25Z dim: wow, maintaining ecl?
2015-05-25T11:38:38Z jackdaniel: mhm
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2015-05-25T12:33:20Z jackdaniel: ok, one issue fixed, not that in fire at all
2015-05-25T12:35:31Z beach: "ON fire" :)
2015-05-25T12:35:37Z beach: And, good afternoon everyone!
2015-05-25T12:35:47Z jackdaniel: o, thanks, I'll remember
2015-05-25T12:35:50Z jackdaniel: good afternoon
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2015-05-25T12:36:56Z beach: Though "on a roll" would probably be a more appropriate idiom here.
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2015-05-25T12:38:10Z jackdaniel: o, never heard this one
2015-05-25T12:39:25Z beach: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=on+a+roll
2015-05-25T12:39:28Z |3b|: either idiom sounds OK to me
2015-05-25T12:39:59Z beach: Sure.
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2015-05-25T12:41:07Z theos: hey
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2015-05-25T12:43:51Z ggole: Well, you are supposed to go on a roll when you are on fire.
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2015-05-25T13:01:46Z francogrex:  /join #sbcl
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2015-05-25T13:08:15Z beach: I am introducing a new generic function in SICL CLOS named DEFAULT-SUPERCLASSES.  It returns a list of superclasses when a class is created with an empty list of superclasses.
2015-05-25T13:09:00Z beach: It has a method specialized to STANDARD-CLASS which returns a singleton list containing the class named STANDARD-OBJECT.
2015-05-25T13:09:22Z beach: And it has a method specialized to FUNCALLABLE-STANDARD-CLASS which returns a singleton list containing the class named FUNCALLABLE-STANDARD-OBJECT.
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2015-05-25T13:12:00Z beach: Later, it will have a method specialized to the SICL-SPECIFIC class CONDITION-CLASS which return the class named CONDITION.
2015-05-25T13:12:20Z beach: Maybe other CLOS implementations already have this generic function.  I haven't checked.
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2015-05-25T13:40:28Z beach: Hello nyef.
2015-05-25T13:41:11Z nyef: G'morning beach.
2015-05-25T13:41:34Z oleo: morning
2015-05-25T13:41:56Z oleo: i have an issue with nested stuff in :drei-tests package
2015-05-25T13:42:19Z oleo: no matter how far i pushed the dynamic-space-size (even to 3g) i got heap-exhaustion
2015-05-25T13:42:50Z oleo: and or sbcl was killed because it lied beyond it's memory-bounds
2015-05-25T13:42:54Z oleo: by the os
2015-05-25T13:44:16Z oleo: (buffer-test delete-region) and (buffer-test delete-line) (via fiveam) fails
2015-05-25T13:44:30Z oleo: those are some highly nested let forms
2015-05-25T13:44:52Z oleo: when i split them in 2 buffer-tests they succeed tho...
2015-05-25T13:45:04Z beach: Wow.
2015-05-25T13:45:35Z oleo: is gc not active between those let's or what gives ?
2015-05-25T13:46:06Z beach: Do you mean that you preserve what the forms do when you split them?
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2015-05-25T13:46:24Z oleo: yes i preserve
2015-05-25T13:46:40Z oleo: say 6 lets into 2* 3 lets
2015-05-25T13:46:46Z beach: You might want to try that on a different implementation then.
2015-05-25T13:46:56Z oleo: i rename the second test to test2 mostly
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2015-05-25T13:47:05Z oleo: that's all i do
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2015-05-25T13:49:37Z beach: oleo: How do you split the 6 lets?
2015-05-25T13:49:46Z oleo: i don't change order
2015-05-25T13:50:32Z oleo: now it fails at (buffer-test empty-line-p) it seems i have todo it for a couple of tests....
2015-05-25T13:50:36Z oleo: which are nested like that...
2015-05-25T13:51:19Z beach: You need to be convinced that each test inside a suite is independent of the others.   Is that the case?
2015-05-25T13:51:27Z smokeink: i finally managed to install the lisp-cv opencv bindings :) http://paste.lisp.org/display/148646
2015-05-25T13:51:56Z oleo: beach: it is
2015-05-25T13:52:02Z oleo: beach: they run by their own name
2015-05-25T13:53:03Z oleo: maybe spreading a few (gc)s in between would have been better
2015-05-25T13:53:03Z beach: oleo: Then I can only think of two explanations.  Either the testing framework os buggy or the implementation you are running on is taking too much memory to compile those test suites.
2015-05-25T13:53:29Z oleo: i dunno i reduced the dynamic-space-size to 1600 just now....
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2015-05-25T13:56:02Z beach: How do you run the tests?
2015-05-25T13:56:53Z beach: Oh, (RUN-TESTS).
2015-05-25T13:57:31Z oleo: right
2015-05-25T13:58:00Z oleo: well i tried them one by one too via copy-pasting into my listener and surrounding it with (fiveam:run (buffer-test blah......))
2015-05-25T13:58:07Z oleo: one-by-one the work
2015-05-25T13:58:11Z oleo: most of the time
2015-05-25T13:58:21Z oleo: so there's something cumulative going on
2015-05-25T13:58:40Z beach: It could be SBCL retaining memory due to conservative stack scanning.
2015-05-25T13:58:56Z oleo: the above one-by-one runs were done in the package :drei-tests ofc...
2015-05-25T13:58:57Z beach: But here, everything runs without problems.
2015-05-25T13:59:06Z oleo: hmmm
2015-05-25T13:59:13Z oleo: i have many libs loaded too....
2015-05-25T13:59:40Z beach: I guess I don't have very many.  But I use 10GB heap right now I think.
2015-05-25T14:01:49Z dim: is cl-markdown known to support pandoc specific .md format?
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2015-05-25T14:02:22Z beach: oleo: I can't reproduce the problem.
2015-05-25T14:02:45Z oleo: i'll show you the backtrace later on.....
2015-05-25T14:03:04Z oleo: i now put some (gc)  in between the lets
2015-05-25T14:03:08Z beach: I am afraid that won't give any more information.
2015-05-25T14:03:30Z oleo: well it just shows where it failed....
2015-05-25T14:03:32Z beach: Normally, the GC should run automatically.
2015-05-25T14:03:43Z oleo: somehow it doesn't or it's too late....
2015-05-25T14:04:02Z oleo: which gc is default in sbcl ? and which gc default when compiled via --fancy ?
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2015-05-25T14:04:16Z beach: No idea.  Sorry.
2015-05-25T14:04:21Z beach: Ask in #sbcl.
2015-05-25T14:04:36Z oleo: allright
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2015-05-25T14:05:56Z nyef: Depends on the platform. Typically gencgc by default, which is largely non-conservative on non-x86oids, and cheneygc wherever gencgc doesn't run (yet). If you have threads, you have gencgc.
2015-05-25T14:06:12Z oleo: mine is 64oid
2015-05-25T14:06:24Z oleo: i have threads yes
2015-05-25T14:06:33Z nyef: Okay, you're on gencgc then.
2015-05-25T14:07:10Z oleo: so i can't change to cheneygc ?
2015-05-25T14:07:28Z nyef: You almost certainly don't want to.
2015-05-25T14:07:33Z oleo: hmmm
2015-05-25T14:07:45Z oleo: ok
2015-05-25T14:08:07Z nyef: It can't be done on x86 or x86-64, it can't be done without also losing threads, and there are a few other effects.
2015-05-25T14:09:22Z oleo: good to know
2015-05-25T14:09:24Z nyef: IIRC, the HPPA, Alpha, and MIPS backends only support cheneygc for now, the SPARC, PPC, and ARM support both but default to gencgc, and x86 and x86-64 only support gencgc.
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2015-05-25T14:10:04Z oleo: is there a way to affect frequentness of gc'ing ?
2015-05-25T14:10:26Z p_l: bytes-between-gcs or something like that
2015-05-25T14:10:38Z oleo: ah
2015-05-25T14:10:46Z beach: oleo: Did you build your SBCL yourself?
2015-05-25T14:10:51Z oleo: yes
2015-05-25T14:11:05Z beach: oleo: How about trying the default one and see whether the problem is there too.
2015-05-25T14:11:21Z beach: oleo: What was your reason for building your own?
2015-05-25T14:11:39Z oleo: ./make.sh --prefix=/usr/local --fancy --dynamic-space-size 1600 --xc-host="/home/oleo/sbcl-1.2.11-x86-64-binary/run-sbcl.sh"
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2015-05-25T14:12:05Z beach: And why?
2015-05-25T14:12:16Z oleo: i always do that
2015-05-25T14:12:25Z beach: OK.
2015-05-25T14:12:27Z oleo: i don't run the binary
2015-05-25T14:12:37Z oleo: i only use it for compiling the source
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2015-05-25T14:13:35Z oleo: beach: no go with mcclim without threads.....
2015-05-25T14:13:39Z oleo: lol
2015-05-25T14:14:15Z oleo: i spawn processes, else my repl would block....
2015-05-25T14:14:23Z beach: oleo: There are several possible origins of the problem then.  There could be something wrong with your build.  There could be a problem in recent SBCL (I have an old-ish one).  Maybe your SBCL does not take the dynamic-space option into account so that you still run with a small-ish heap.
2015-05-25T14:14:49Z oleo: nope, checked the space-size after compiling....
2015-05-25T14:15:03Z oleo: and like i said, the build time option for setting is in effect all the time....
2015-05-25T14:15:24Z beach: I am talking about the run-time option.  Not the build option.
2015-05-25T14:15:25Z oleo: i can't change it dynamically even when i give it a different value via --dynamic-space-size on the command-line
2015-05-25T14:16:01Z oleo: i really have to recompile everytime i want to change it, i can't even reduce it....
2015-05-25T14:16:05Z oleo: i checked
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2015-05-25T14:16:29Z beach: How did you check it?
2015-05-25T14:16:52Z oleo: running the instances after compiling and doing (dynamic-space-size) inside the repls
2015-05-25T14:18:02Z beach: Then there is definitely something wrong with your build.
2015-05-25T14:18:33Z beach: I can change the heap space at start-up no problem.
2015-05-25T14:18:46Z beach: You definitely should not have to recompile for that.
2015-05-25T14:20:24Z oleo: hmm, i can recompile without the --fancy option....
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2015-05-25T14:20:39Z oleo: i can't change at startup....
2015-05-25T14:20:44Z oleo: i dunno why
2015-05-25T14:21:08Z beach: I am afraid I am not the right person to ask about SBCL details.
2015-05-25T14:21:20Z beach: I run an old version, and I run the default binary.
2015-05-25T14:21:50Z beach: I see no reason to upgrade unless I am having problems and I don't need anything special in my binary.
2015-05-25T14:22:24Z oleo: i tried sbcl --no-userinit --dynamic-space-size blah too, it doesn't change anything....
2015-05-25T14:22:42Z beach: oleo: But I think you have some work to do.  Start by making sure you can build an SBCL that can change the heap size at start-up.  Then experiment with increasing it before running the drei-test.
2015-05-25T14:22:53Z oleo: ok
2015-05-25T14:23:23Z beach: It is a waste of time to recompile SBCL just to add a few GB to the heap.
2015-05-25T14:24:10Z |3b|: oleo: at a shell try  which sbcl
2015-05-25T14:24:21Z |3b|: and   file `which sbcl`
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2015-05-25T14:27:31Z oleo: /usr/local/bin/sbcl /usr/local/bin/sbcl: ELF 64-bit LSB  executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), not stripped
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2015-05-25T14:28:38Z |3b|: ok, that looks reasonable
2015-05-25T14:28:54Z |3b| wondered if you were accidentally running a script that ate command-line options or something
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2015-05-25T14:29:40Z oleo: well i use a script
2015-05-25T14:29:40Z pjb: White_Flame: ggole:  M-x toggle-truncate-lines RET may help with speed on long lines.
2015-05-25T14:30:10Z beach: oleo: Well, then you must make sure you pass the arguments along.
2015-05-25T14:30:35Z oleo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/148647
2015-05-25T14:30:37Z oleo: i do
2015-05-25T14:31:00Z oleo: but the arguments don't affect dynamic-space-size
2015-05-25T14:31:03Z oleo: like i told.....
2015-05-25T14:31:13Z oleo: it's not that issue....
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2015-05-25T14:32:20Z |3b|: try putting --dynamic-space-size 2600 before --userinit
2015-05-25T14:32:48Z |3b|: --control-stack-size also if you need it
2015-05-25T14:33:55Z |3b|: before --no-userinit as well when you use that
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2015-05-25T14:37:52Z beach: oleo: More generally, you need to learn to simplify your test.  You simply have too many non-standard parameters in your environment: Custom SBCL, custom command-line arguments, lots of additional libraries.  Only you can simplify all that so that you can figure out where the problem is.  It is impossible to do remotely.
2015-05-25T14:38:25Z oleo: ok thank you
2015-05-25T14:38:26Z oleo: i'll try
2015-05-25T14:38:57Z beach: Also, if some argument is not meant for SBCL itself, it ought to be included in sb-ext:*posix-argv*
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2015-05-25T14:39:30Z beach: If your --dynamic-space-size argument shows up there, it means that SBCL didn't consider it to be meant for itself.
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2015-05-25T14:44:09Z oleo: allright found the issue....
2015-05-25T14:44:23Z ggole: SBCL should take it for itself. I tested by passing a nonsense value (-1) and seeing it error out.
2015-05-25T14:44:24Z oleo: --dynamic-space-size before --user-init
2015-05-25T14:44:35Z oleo: i tried that and it worked!
2015-05-25T14:44:40Z oleo: so order
2015-05-25T14:44:40Z beach: Great.
2015-05-25T14:44:42Z oleo: :)
2015-05-25T14:44:44Z oleo: thank you
2015-05-25T14:45:06Z ggole: Meaningful named argument order, sigh
2015-05-25T14:45:16Z beach: It all thanks to the patience of |3b|.
2015-05-25T14:45:29Z nyef: Next question, then: Is this ordering dependency mentioned in the documentation? Either it is, and you learn something new about the documentation, or it's not, and you get to file a bug report. d-:
2015-05-25T14:46:03Z |3b|: it is implied in output of --help, if not stated explicitly
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2015-05-25T14:46:26Z oleo: must have skipped it....
2015-05-25T14:47:09Z oleo: well, i have seen no highlighting of order in the doc....
2015-05-25T14:47:17Z |3b|: Usage: sbcl [runtime-options] [toplevel-options] [user-options], dynamic space is runtime, userinit is toplevel
2015-05-25T14:47:20Z oleo: but the order it gives is correct....
2015-05-25T14:47:24Z beach: sbcl runtime-option* --end-runtime-options toplevel-option* --end-toplevel-options user-options*
2015-05-25T14:47:33Z oleo: jep
2015-05-25T14:47:40Z oleo: so my fault
2015-05-25T14:48:21Z beach: It is pretty explicit in the manual: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Command-Line-Options
2015-05-25T14:49:36Z oleo: :=)
2015-05-25T14:53:01Z oleo: now the tests pass without flaws it seems too
2015-05-25T14:53:14Z beach: Excellent!
2015-05-25T14:53:32Z oleo: *gc-inhibit* was nil
2015-05-25T14:53:36Z oleo: i changed it to t
2015-05-25T14:53:42Z oleo: err vice-versa i mean
2015-05-25T14:53:50Z oleo: it was t, i changed it to nil
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2015-05-25T14:58:38Z pjb: ggole: you are wrong, Racket sources and CL sources are compatible, in both directions: Have a look at (intersection common-lisp emacs-lisp scheme) http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/intersection-r5rs-common-lisp-emacs-lisp/
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2015-05-25T15:00:48Z drmeister: Hello - I'm unravelling the consequences of Greenspun's rule.  I wrote a lot of archaic code before I had a Common Lisp and now that I'm merging it with Clasp I can switch it to use Common Lisp facilities.  The code!  It's full of hash-tables!
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2015-05-25T15:01:58Z drmeister: Well, not quite yet - but that's the idea.
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2015-05-25T15:02:43Z jackdaniel: minion: you old robot, wake up
2015-05-25T15:02:43Z minion: what's up?
2015-05-25T15:03:07Z drmeister: jackdaniel: minion already messaged me from #clasp
2015-05-25T15:03:11Z jackdaniel: oh
2015-05-25T15:03:39Z pjb: beach: I think one can compare implementations, even of different languages, on several plans: implementation techniques, tools and facilities provided (debuggers, editors, etc).  Of course, one would have to note that such implementation technique used to implement such language, couldn't be used for such other language because of such other language feature, but that would still be meaningful and instructive.
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2015-05-25T15:04:23Z drmeister: We have minion there as well... and a cappuccino maker - feel free to drop by sometime.
2015-05-25T15:04:46Z drmeister notes the cappuccino maker is in his home - but the offer stands.
2015-05-25T15:04:52Z jackdaniel: I already have problems with managing my humble number of channels
2015-05-25T15:04:56Z otwieracz: drmeister: hey! How's clasp going?
2015-05-25T15:06:15Z drmeister: otwieracz: I've integrated Cleavir, it has immediate fixnums, characters and single-floats and tagged pointers.  I'm extending it with my chemistry code at the moment but I'm getting ready to make a push to generating much faster code in a couple of weeks.
2015-05-25T15:06:41Z otwieracz: cool :(
2015-05-25T15:06:50Z otwieracz: s/(/)/
2015-05-25T15:07:13Z jackdaniel: cool :|(|
2015-05-25T15:07:13Z drmeister: A computational chemist without his computational chemistry tools is a sad, sad wretch.
2015-05-25T15:07:31Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2015-05-25T15:07:33Z otwieracz: :)
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2015-05-25T15:07:42Z dim: pjb: racket is capable of hosting several languages (incl. python), what about you adding CL to the list?
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2015-05-25T15:09:06Z dim: pjb: http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/languages.html
2015-05-25T15:09:17Z beach: drmeister: I don't see the relation between Greenspun and hash tables.
2015-05-25T15:10:27Z drmeister: "Any sufficiently complicated C or Fortran program contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of Common Lisp"
2015-05-25T15:10:44Z drmeister: I had implemented a lot of different kinds of maps - with different kinds of equality.
2015-05-25T15:10:45Z jackdaniel: including common lisp
2015-05-25T15:10:46Z beach: I know that one.  Still don't see the relation.
2015-05-25T15:11:09Z drmeister: Hash-tables can replace all of them.
2015-05-25T15:11:15Z beach: Got it.
2015-05-25T15:11:43Z drmeister: Hash-tables + garbage collection.
2015-05-25T15:12:00Z beach: I am surprised though.  Doesn't STL have hash tables?
2015-05-25T15:13:44Z ggole: It does these days.
2015-05-25T15:13:53Z drmeister: Yes, but they don't do garbage collection.
2015-05-25T15:14:01Z beach: Right.
2015-05-25T15:14:02Z ggole: Hash tables don't usually provide ordering though.
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2015-05-25T15:14:41Z H4ns: drmeister: you're not trying to make the point that CL has awesome data structures, or are you?
2015-05-25T15:14:46Z pjb: dim: indeed.  Just like we added scheme (r4rs) to the list of languages supported by CL (fortran, c, etc).
2015-05-25T15:15:39Z drmeister: H4ns: Yes I am.
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2015-05-25T15:15:57Z drmeister: Hash-tables + garbage collection are awesome.
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2015-05-25T15:16:20Z pjb: cons cells + gc is awesome too. You should try it.
2015-05-25T15:16:43Z beach: pjb: What have you been smoking today?
2015-05-25T15:17:24Z drmeister: It's not the data structures themselves that I care about, it's the mapping of keys to values and garbage collection.
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2015-05-25T15:18:32Z beach: Automatic memory management is definitely a software-engineering tool.
2015-05-25T15:18:45Z beach: C++ programmers don't seem to realize that.
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2015-05-25T15:19:58Z H4ns: garbage collection is well know in c++ as well nowadays.  there are certainly die-hard proponents of manual memory manegement in the c++ world, but hey - in common lisp, we know of people who hate clos.
2015-05-25T15:20:00Z jackdaniel: given popularity of smartpointers they do
2015-05-25T15:20:15Z jackdaniel: they do realize that°
2015-05-25T15:20:39Z H4ns: it is just that hash tables are not really the only useful data structure.  i find cl rather limited in what it provides.
2015-05-25T15:21:12Z H4ns: like, in the 1990ies, everyone was like "woha!  hash tables built in!".  but today?
2015-05-25T15:21:16Z jackdaniel: and given language used properly (what is main trouble in c++ - it's a mess), riaa ensures you don't have to manage memory
2015-05-25T15:23:15Z jackdaniel: raii°
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2015-05-25T15:24:48Z pjb: beach: are you refering comparing implementations or cons cells?
2015-05-25T15:24:55Z White_Flame: and CL doesn't have a built-in hashtable literal syntax
2015-05-25T15:25:01Z beach: drmeister: If you want to, at some point we can discuss how you use your maps.  There might be more efficient data structures possible.  Hash tables have good average complexity, but the constant factor is non-negligible.
2015-05-25T15:25:57Z White_Flame: Javascript is a reasonable example of "hashtable for everything", as well as optimizations to implement it.  Though the coercing of all keys to strings sucks
2015-05-25T15:25:59Z beach: pjb: Both and more.
2015-05-25T15:26:18Z pjb: Then I guess there's some communication barrier.
2015-05-25T15:26:25Z beach: Possibly.
2015-05-25T15:26:43Z pjb: But FYI, I don't smoke anything.
2015-05-25T15:26:57Z beach: Sure.  That's just an expression.
2015-05-25T15:27:31Z beach: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=What+have+you+been+smokin%27
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2015-05-25T15:28:44Z drmeister: beach: I need to do profiling on the chemistry code.   I've also got a small-map which is an array of pairs.
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2015-05-25T15:29:51Z drmeister: I use it where I need a small, lightweight map.
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2015-05-25T15:31:07Z flip214: luis: Is " Pretty printer puzzle " from you?
2015-05-25T15:31:32Z flip214: if yes, perhaps you could change the platform's language - English would be easier to navigate ;)
2015-05-25T15:31:39Z flip214: "
2015-05-25T15:31:46Z flip214: Enviar um comentário "  etc. is what I'm talking about.
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2015-05-25T15:32:55Z aeth: portuguese?
2015-05-25T15:33:01Z beach: drmeister: Profiling would certainly be a good start.
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2015-05-25T15:46:29Z drmeister: Another thing I'm doing is switching from using std::string to name all sorts of things (atoms, residues, stereochemical configurations, molecules etc.) to Common Lisp symbols.
2015-05-25T15:47:16Z pjb: A first step to rewriting it in lisp. Good.
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2015-05-25T15:48:06Z beach: drmeister: That can definitely improve performance if you can replace string comparison with EQ in some cases.
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2015-05-25T15:54:40Z luis: flip214: yes.
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2015-05-25T15:54:50Z luis: flip214: what's up?
2015-05-25T15:56:41Z luis: oh, the site's language. I see.
2015-05-25T15:57:25Z drmeister: beach: That's the idea.
2015-05-25T15:58:10Z luis: flip214: there, changed it to English. :)
2015-05-25T15:59:11Z quevan: what's considered the fastest performing implementation of a lisp?
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2015-05-25T16:00:15Z pjb: quevan: I don't consider anything, I benchmark.
2015-05-25T16:01:06Z theos: quevan SBCL is a very fast implementation of CL.
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2015-05-25T16:02:21Z quevan: pjb: well i meant common opinion of lispers
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2015-05-25T16:06:00Z beach: quevan: What is your reason for asking?
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2015-05-25T16:08:17Z quevan: mostly curiosity. I was wondering if any of the tricks used to speedup other dynamially typed languages such as JS have made it into a lisp implementation yet
2015-05-25T16:09:06Z quevan: thus I would curious to look at an implementation focused on performance
2015-05-25T16:09:21Z |3b|: tricks from CLs have probably made it into JS, but most CL implementations are pretty old, so not as much the other way around
2015-05-25T16:09:26Z beach: Some of those tricks are not needed.  Common Lisp is less dynamic than other dynamic languages.
2015-05-25T16:09:42Z quevan: beach: how's it less dynamic?
2015-05-25T16:09:57Z White_Flame: CL implementations currently don't do any dynamic recompilation afaict
2015-05-25T16:10:04Z beach: For example, Common Lisp is class based.
2015-05-25T16:10:37Z beach: quevan: So it doesn't need the tricks that (say) Python requires, which is prototype based.
2015-05-25T16:10:43Z White_Flame: (there might be some recompilation hidden in CLOS dispatch, but that's not my forte)
2015-05-25T16:10:52Z |3b|: most CL implementations do AOT compilation (but possibly at runtime) rather than JIT, so JIT optimizations don't apply
2015-05-25T16:10:55Z beach: White_Flame: There is.
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2015-05-25T16:11:07Z quevan: |3b|  AOT compilation?
2015-05-25T16:11:16Z |3b|: "ahead of time" as opposed to "just in time"
2015-05-25T16:11:32Z oleo: lol
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2015-05-25T16:12:02Z beach: White_Flame: I don't think it would be possible to get good performance out of CLOS without dynamic run-time compilation.
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2015-05-25T16:12:21Z |3b|: CL will generally compile a function once, either when you evaluate the definition or when you specifically tell it to compile it
2015-05-25T16:12:26Z White_Flame: quevan: static type inference is applied in CL, where dynamic type profiling might be applied in JS etc  JITs
2015-05-25T16:13:06Z |3b|: while a JS might recompile a given function, or bits and pieces of a function multiple times for different uses as it decides it needs to
2015-05-25T16:13:10Z quevan: White_Flame: aka gradual typing? i believe python is about to gain official support for this
2015-05-25T16:13:28Z White_Flame: now, there's nothing preventing a CL implementation from doing JIT-style reoptimization.  It would likely take a new implementation, though
2015-05-25T16:13:41Z White_Flame: I'm not familiar with "gradual typing"
2015-05-25T16:13:56Z White_Flame: but I am familiar with JS and JVM runtime optimizations
2015-05-25T16:14:14Z quevan: basically, type annotations are optional and for any situations where it cannot infer the types, it places a runtime check instead of optimizing the check out
2015-05-25T16:14:47Z White_Flame: yeah, that's the basic effect.  Optimization declarations can also elide runtime checks, or make them more thorough
2015-05-25T16:15:05Z failproofshark: hello
2015-05-25T16:15:14Z beach: Hello failproofshark.
2015-05-25T16:15:26Z oleo: hello failproofshark
2015-05-25T16:15:30Z failproofshark: how are things beach and oleo ?
2015-05-25T16:15:34Z White_Flame: hELLO failproofshark
2015-05-25T16:15:35Z oleo: fine fine
2015-05-25T16:15:39Z oleo: getting better
2015-05-25T16:16:05Z beach: quevan: Are you asking the same question about other languages, or is it just Common Lisp that you are interested in?
2015-05-25T16:16:40Z beach: failproofshark: Fine here.  Caught up in bootstrapping at the moment.  You?
2015-05-25T16:16:48Z |3b| seems to remember gnu clisp having some experimental JIT support, not sure if it was ever finished or if the JIT did any of the interesting optimizations you would see in a JS JIT though
2015-05-25T16:16:50Z oleo: i just had a kde crash.....
2015-05-25T16:16:53Z oleo: lol
2015-05-25T16:16:57Z failproofshark: hello White_Flame
2015-05-25T16:17:04Z failproofshark: beach: im doing well. just filling out some car insurance stuff
2015-05-25T16:17:16Z oleo: creeped to a halt almost....
2015-05-25T16:17:31Z beach: oleo: "crept".
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2015-05-25T16:17:36Z White_Flame: |3b|: pretty sure CLISP was referring to runtime AOT, technically
2015-05-25T16:17:37Z oleo: jep
2015-05-25T16:17:38Z oleo: sry
2015-05-25T16:17:41Z oleo: :)
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2015-05-25T16:18:07Z |3b|: White_Flame: with the experimental JIT? could be, didn't really look into it much
2015-05-25T16:18:08Z quevan: beach: not even one particular flavor of lisp, but lisps in general I'm curious about since a lot of progress has been made in improving the performance of new-age dynamically typed languages
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2015-05-25T16:18:43Z White_Flame: a ton of performance improvements have been made to Common Lisp since ~2000s
2015-05-25T16:19:08Z White_Flame: but again, those are more from the viewpoint of a static compiler (sans CLOS improvements)
2015-05-25T16:19:32Z White_Flame: with very loose languages (say, JavaScript), it really does need runtime analysis
2015-05-25T16:19:48Z White_Flame: the latter is also a factor of Moore's law allowing better runtime analysis capability
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2015-05-25T16:20:28Z beach: White_Flame: What do you mean by "sans CLOS improvements"?
2015-05-25T16:20:38Z White_Flame: I would like to see JIT-style improvements applied to CL, but we already have "in the ballpark of C" performance
2015-05-25T16:20:54Z White_Flame: beach: those aren't necessarily just static compiler improvements, but further than that
2015-05-25T16:20:57Z quevan: White_Flame: how's JS looser than say CL? do you just mean that CL allows type annotations?
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2015-05-25T16:21:16Z _1_Melvin3: hello
2015-05-25T16:21:17Z White_Flame: CL allows type annotations, has richer types, and declared structures
2015-05-25T16:21:32Z White_Flame: JS has to fake everything on top of (conceptual) hashtables
2015-05-25T16:22:26Z quevan: i feel like the latter point is a bit of an implementation difference (i'm not deeply familiar with CL or JS though)
2015-05-25T16:22:32Z beach: quevan: Like I said about Python, JavaScript is also prototype based.  Those languages can require more work from the compiler to get good performance out of.
2015-05-25T16:22:47Z beach: Hello _1_Melvin3.
2015-05-25T16:22:50Z White_Flame: the JS language has the "object" (which is a string->anyval hashtable) as its fundamental composite data structure
2015-05-25T16:23:24Z beach: quevan: Do you know the difference between class-based and prototype-based object orientation?
2015-05-25T16:23:31Z White_Flame: the CL language has explicitly defined structs & classes, as well as generic lists & arrays
2015-05-25T16:23:32Z quevan: beach: nope
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2015-05-25T16:24:03Z beach: quevan: The latter are much more difficult to get good performance out of.
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2015-05-25T16:24:45Z beach: quevan: The authors of "Self" were the first ones to show that it was even possible to get comparable performance out of a prototype-based languages.
2015-05-25T16:25:25Z beach: quevan: So you may "feel like" it is an implementation difference, but in fact there is a difference in the way the language works.
2015-05-25T16:25:49Z beach: Ungar & Chambers, for Self, right?
2015-05-25T16:26:42Z pjb: quevan: http://paste.lisp.org/display/148648  ccl wins, with clisp close behind.
2015-05-25T16:27:00Z White_Flame: quevan: JS and such are starting to find maturity in their optimizations.  CL has had its respective optimizations for quite a while already.  They're different classes of optimizations, though, as their respective environments have completely different performance characteristics due to the nature of the languages
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2015-05-25T16:27:22Z White_Flame: (if that gets more back to your fundamental question)
2015-05-25T16:28:20Z White_Flame: and as I mentioned, the generated machine code is very C-like.  Many systems are as fast (due to good compilers) or faster (due to more flexible architecture) than C
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2015-05-25T16:29:23Z White_Flame: and the CPU/memory speed discrepancy means you can waste some fluff on the CPU without actually slowing down anyway ;)
2015-05-25T16:29:32Z beach: quevan: When I read the specification of the Common Lisp language, I am always amazed by the deep knowledge of the people who wrote it.  They designed the language to be as dynamic as possible, but without crossing the line that might degrade performance, given the optimization methods they knew at the time.
2015-05-25T16:30:24Z White_Flame: yes, Lisp was meant to run fast in deployed industry on 80s-era hardware
2015-05-25T16:30:27Z beach: quevan: Some language designers don't have such deep knowledge, so they sometimes design languages that are extremely hard to optimize.
2015-05-25T16:31:50Z quevan: "Since the underlying Emacs Lisp system provides no way to create new distinct types, this package implements structures as vectors (or lists upon request) with a special “tag” symbol to identify them."
2015-05-25T16:32:16Z beach: quevan: This channel is about Common Lisp.  Not Emacs Lisp.
2015-05-25T16:32:16Z White_Flame: "Emacs Lisp" is the convenience scripting language built into the Emacs editor
2015-05-25T16:32:32Z quevan: i think that's what i was getting at when I was saying it's implementation specific
2015-05-25T16:32:47Z White_Flame: "Lisp" for most intents & purposes means "Common Lisp" here
2015-05-25T16:32:54Z quevan: (this is in reference to the CL is less "loose" than JS because it supports things such as structs)
2015-05-25T16:33:00Z White_Flame: even though Emacs Lisp, Scheme, etc exist
2015-05-25T16:33:21Z White_Flame: Emacs Lisp is not Common Lisp.  It is a small convenience language
2015-05-25T16:33:26Z White_Flame: within the Lisp family of languages
2015-05-25T16:33:32Z beach: quevan: Everything I have said is in reference to Common Lisp.
2015-05-25T16:33:54Z White_Flame: Common Lisp is a mature, used-in-industry, highly featureful language
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2015-05-25T16:34:02Z quevan: well, doesn't the same thing apply to a naive CL implementation of structs?
2015-05-25T16:34:07Z theos: elisp is like the baby brother of CL
2015-05-25T16:34:19Z White_Flame: the "Lisp family of languages" is very broad and has very simple languages included in it
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2015-05-25T16:34:33Z quevan: agreed, but I just meant in the less/more dynamic than JS thing about structs existing in CL and not in JS
2015-05-25T16:35:01Z White_Flame: quevan: the DEFSTRUCT standard Common Lisp operation clearly defines the quantity and names of slots (as well as optionally other info), regardless of the underlying implementation's naivety
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2015-05-25T16:36:02Z beach: quevan: I think you really need to read up on the difference between class-based and prototype-based object orientation.
2015-05-25T16:36:10Z theos: quevan you wouldnt want to use any other language once you have mastered CL. Mastering it is the tricky part.
2015-05-25T16:36:52Z beach: quevan: There is no point in discussing how dynamic this or that language is unless you understand that difference.
2015-05-25T16:37:14Z phadthai: (and it is specified that the behavior is undefined if a struct is redefined without recompiling all dependent code explicitely)
2015-05-25T16:37:17Z White_Flame: the struct vs JS object difference is understandable without prototype/class distinctions
2015-05-25T16:37:44Z White_Flame: classes/methods/inheritance, yeah it applies there
2015-05-25T16:37:48Z beach: quevan: I still don't understand your motivation for this discussion.  It seems to be more than just "out of curiosity" since you are not only asking for information, but also arguing despite lack of knowledge of basic language structure.
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2015-05-25T16:38:38Z quevan: beach: apologies if i seem to be arguing here, I'm just curious about why CL is considered strictly less dynamic than JS
2015-05-25T16:38:56Z quevan: my experience is in statically typed languages such as SML
2015-05-25T16:38:56Z White_Flame: because it specifies its composite data structures
2015-05-25T16:39:08Z beach: quevan: Do I really have to repeat the thing about class-based and prototype-based?
2015-05-25T16:39:25Z White_Flame: (plus what beach said)
2015-05-25T16:41:23Z aeth: As far as speed goes, assume Common Lisp is slower than C and C++, and faster than Python/Perl/PHP/Ruby/JavaScript. At least, I think JavaScript. CL's a middle language like Java, at least afaik.
2015-05-25T16:41:47Z beach: aeth: That's a very broad statement.
2015-05-25T16:41:48Z White_Flame: and when you get good with Common Lisp, it's as fast or faster than C & C++
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2015-05-25T16:42:04Z beach: aeth: There is no way you can write a C++ program that is both fast and modular.
2015-05-25T16:42:46Z beach: quevan: Here is a Wikipedia article on prototype-based OO: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prototype-based_programming
2015-05-25T16:43:03Z aeth: beach: well, yeah, fast CL will have a lot nicer code than fast C++
2015-05-25T16:43:15Z beach: aeth: Exactly.
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2015-05-25T16:44:14Z beach: Ah, Ungar & Smith.  I guess Chambers did the compiler.
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2015-05-25T16:45:51Z aeth: White_Flame: iirc Lisp is generally 1x to 6x C, as opposed to e.g. Python's or Perl's > 20x C. There are probably shortcuts that benchmark writers don't use, especially if they limit themselves to e.g. just sbcl
2015-05-25T16:45:58Z pjb: aeth: only, you're wrong, some CL compiler generate code that run faster than equivalent programs compiled with gcc.
2015-05-25T16:46:20Z pjb: aeth: http://cliki.net/Performance
2015-05-25T16:46:21Z aeth: I guess in reality it's probably 0.?x to 6x
2015-05-25T16:46:25Z beach: aeth: You need to read the papers by Didier Verna.
2015-05-25T16:46:28Z White_Flame: aeth: benchmarks are always microbenchmarks.  Greater than C speed is achieved in large programs by better architecture
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2015-05-25T16:47:01Z aeth: pjb: How's the memory usage, though? I am assuming that well written C will almost always be better on memory
2015-05-25T16:47:10Z aeth: (not like anyone cares these days, 8 GB is cheap)
2015-05-25T16:47:16Z White_Flame: sure, especially since it doesn't have to drag a compiler around with it
2015-05-25T16:47:30Z beach: aeth: To continue the argument of White_Flame, I remind you of the ITA accomplishment.  They make Common Lisp faster than assembler.
2015-05-25T16:47:32Z quevan: beach: so CL has a class-based object system with dynamic recompilation in order to support some of the dynamicness of prototype-based OO?
2015-05-25T16:47:45Z aeth: beach: wait what
2015-05-25T16:48:04Z beach: aeth: The system they were competing with was written in assembler.
2015-05-25T16:48:14Z White_Flame: quevan: there is not dynamic recompilation in general, just in some of the class dispatch code
2015-05-25T16:48:19Z beach: quevan: No, just to support the dynamic aspects required by CLOS.
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2015-05-25T16:48:46Z White_Flame: quevan: since you can redefine classes & transform objects to new class versions at runtime
2015-05-25T16:49:10Z White_Flame: but it doesn't do profiling-based recompilation that modern JITs do
2015-05-25T16:49:31Z beach: quevan: Dinner time for me.  I'll leave you in the capable hands of White_Flame and other #lisp participants.  Good luck with your quest.
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2015-05-25T16:49:53Z White_Flame: and I'm hungry, so you'd better get understanding quick ;)
2015-05-25T16:50:05Z beach: Heh!
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2015-05-25T16:50:37Z White_Flame: but it doesn't support anything of prototype-based systems
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2015-05-25T16:50:48Z White_Flame: (unless you write a prototype-based system yourself using CL)
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2015-05-25T16:51:24Z quevan: ah
2015-05-25T16:51:38Z White_Flame: because most CL implementations are based on a meta-object protocol, you can redefine the nature of the object system yourself
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2015-05-25T16:52:50Z quevan: White_Flame: are class definitions first-class in CL?
2015-05-25T16:53:15Z White_Flame: I don't do much CLOS/MOP stuff, but I think so
2015-05-25T16:53:23Z aeth: I guess you could write a specific really fast Lisp implementation if you e.g. really optimized stuff like MAPCAR
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2015-05-25T16:53:41Z pjb: or use one of the multiple prototype based systems ALREADY implemented in CL, such as KR or Sheeple,
2015-05-25T16:53:42Z pjb: .
2015-05-25T16:54:05Z White_Flame: or that
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2015-05-25T16:54:38Z quevan: it seems to me that class definitions being first-class is kind of the distinction at language level between class vs prototype OO.
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2015-05-25T16:55:04Z pjb: what could be more first class than a prototype?
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2015-05-25T16:55:12Z pjb: quevan: you missed the point entirely.
2015-05-25T16:55:35Z White_Flame: C++ doesn't have first-class class definitions... which direction are you claiming?
2015-05-25T16:55:38Z quevan: pjb: have I? I was suggesting that prototype is first-class
2015-05-25T16:55:44Z contrapunctus: TIL of Sheeple. "fully buzzword-compliant" lol
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2015-05-25T16:56:00Z pjb: quevan: classes are first class in CL.
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2015-05-25T16:57:00Z pjb: quevan: (defclass pt () ((x :initarg :x :reader x))) (let ((c (find-class 'pt))) (make-instance c :x 2)) --> #<pt #x302001F59B1D>
2015-05-25T16:57:07Z White_Flame: the major distinction of class vs prototype has to do with method & slot resolution
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2015-05-25T16:57:31Z White_Flame: class-based uses class/interface definitions, prototype uses whatever happens to be on the object instance
2015-05-25T16:58:21Z quevan: ah okay
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2015-05-25T16:58:48Z oleo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/148651 and http://paste.lisp.org/display/148651#1
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2015-05-25T16:59:30Z oleo: ok seems i have to set gc-pending to t anyway else sub-gc fails....
2015-05-25T16:59:58Z White_Flame: I hope all those #+:quicklisp (ql:quickload ...) clauses aren't written by hand :-P
2015-05-25T17:00:07Z oleo: they are!
2015-05-25T17:00:08Z oleo: :)
2015-05-25T17:00:16Z White_Flame: you have Lisp!  Generate them!
2015-05-25T17:00:27Z oleo: jep, next-time!
2015-05-25T17:01:00Z quevan: White_Flame: so, if I represent my object instances as pairs of type <def, obj>, I now have a prototype system?
2015-05-25T17:01:10Z White_Flame: no
2015-05-25T17:01:26Z White_Flame: in a prototype system, when you access the member of an object, it introspects the object to see if it's there
2015-05-25T17:01:47Z White_Flame: if not, it grabs the parent prototype _object_ and sees if the member is on there, up the chain
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2015-05-25T17:02:07Z quevan: oh alright
2015-05-25T17:02:19Z White_Flame: wait, if "def" means "default", then yeah.  If it means "definition", then no
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2015-05-25T17:02:30Z quevan: White_Flame: it meant definition
2015-05-25T17:02:36Z oleo: i'll map those export and import-from blah things too... too long else....
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2015-05-25T17:07:05Z quevan: btw, I have an old CL book that is basically ANSI 1.0... has CLOS been basically the same since the first ANSI spec or should I find a newer resource?
2015-05-25T17:07:10Z flip214: luis: thank you.
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2015-05-25T17:07:22Z White_Flame: the spec hasn't changed
2015-05-25T17:07:39Z White_Flame: but are you talking about Common Lisp The Language?
2015-05-25T17:07:43Z White_Flame: that was pre-ANSI
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2015-05-25T17:08:16Z quevan: White_Flame: yea it's the book ANSI was based on according to wikipedia
2015-05-25T17:08:31Z White_Flame: right, but there were changes between that and the spec.  I don't recall what
2015-05-25T17:08:55Z White_Flame: the spec is very specific, but not tutorial in nature
2015-05-25T17:09:11Z White_Flame: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/CLHS/Front/Contents.htm
2015-05-25T17:09:36Z White_Flame: (ie, it's actually a spec)
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2015-05-25T17:11:48Z quevan: okay, thanks White_Flame beach and others
2015-05-25T17:11:58Z White_Flame: yw
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2015-05-25T17:29:24Z otwieracz: Hey.
2015-05-25T17:29:34Z otwieracz: I am trying to write one of my very first macros and
2015-05-25T17:29:39Z otwieracz: WORKER> (defmacro test (&rest form) `(if t ,form nil))
2015-05-25T17:29:40Z otwieracz: this
2015-05-25T17:30:10Z otwieracz: WORKER> (macroexpand '(test 'OK))
2015-05-25T17:30:10Z otwieracz: (IF T ('OK) NIL)
2015-05-25T17:30:18Z otwieracz: Expands to this.
2015-05-25T17:30:26Z Bike: yep.
2015-05-25T17:30:26Z otwieracz: Why '(OK) instead of 'OK?
2015-05-25T17:30:35Z Bike: Because form is a &rest list.
2015-05-25T17:30:37Z Bike: so, a list.
2015-05-25T17:30:51Z Bike: if you want it to be one form just do (defmacro test (form) ...)
2015-05-25T17:31:08Z otwieracz: Hmm.
2015-05-25T17:31:22Z otwieracz: That's bad example.
2015-05-25T17:32:07Z otwieracz: I know this makes no sense, but:
2015-05-25T17:32:12Z otwieracz: WORKER> (defmacro test (&rest form) `(progn t ,form nil))
2015-05-25T17:32:16Z otwieracz: WORKER> (macroexpand '(test 'OK))
2015-05-25T17:32:17Z otwieracz: (PROGN T ('OK) NIL)
2015-05-25T17:32:24Z otwieracz: WORKER> (macroexpand '(test 'OK 'OK))
2015-05-25T17:32:25Z otwieracz: (PROGN T ('OK 'OK) NIL)
2015-05-25T17:32:33Z otwieracz: Where I wanted (PROGN T 'OK 'OK NIL).
2015-05-25T17:32:40Z ggole: Use ,@ for that.
2015-05-25T17:32:58Z otwieracz: What ,@ does?
2015-05-25T17:33:05Z Bike: it "splices".
2015-05-25T17:33:07Z ggole: Splices a list into that position.
2015-05-25T17:33:23Z Bike: (let ((x '(1 1))) `(foo ,x bar)) => (FOO 1 1 BAR)
2015-05-25T17:33:28Z Bike: er, ,@x.
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2015-05-25T17:33:41Z ggole: You may wish to test ,@ on a simple backquoted form outside of a macro to get comfortable with it first.
2015-05-25T17:35:20Z otwieracz: OK.
2015-05-25T17:35:36Z otwieracz: That was obvious that macros will require some weird characters. Stupid me.
2015-05-25T17:36:13Z ggole: They're shorthand for list operations. You don't need to use them.
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2015-05-25T17:36:30Z otwieracz: No, that's cool. :)
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2015-05-25T17:37:12Z oleo: ha!, dynamic-space-size 2500 control-stack-size 1 does it!
2015-05-25T17:37:34Z oleo: and http://paste.lisp.org/display/148651#2
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2015-05-25T17:39:20Z oleo: dunno why i used stack-size of 4 or even 8
2015-05-25T17:39:40Z oleo: makes the memory-footprint of stuff much much larger it seems too....
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2015-05-25T17:41:38Z jackdaniel: if I have *error-stream*, which doesn't have file descriptor, but need to redirect there stderr from external proces, is echo-stream appropriate?
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2015-05-25T17:42:18Z jackdaniel: I mean - create stream with fd and make it an input of echo stream, and *error-stream* as output
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2015-05-25T17:45:55Z oleo: echo stream or bidirectional-stream ?
2015-05-25T17:46:17Z francogrex: how do I create a new thread to run a toplevel repl (instead of the intial thread)?
2015-05-25T17:46:41Z Bike: (make-thread #'repl)?
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2015-05-25T17:50:15Z pjb: otwieracz: macros don't require any weird characters.  They just require some BRAINS!  Write it as:  (defmacro test (&rest form) (list 'progn 't form 'nil))  and debug from here.
2015-05-25T17:51:00Z jackdaniel: oleo: echo-stream
2015-05-25T17:51:58Z oleo: hmm, no idea on that yet....
2015-05-25T17:52:14Z otwieracz: pjb: „me has no brains”
2015-05-25T17:52:28Z jackdaniel: it takes one stream as input and one stream as output
2015-05-25T17:52:40Z jackdaniel: and what comes from input it puts at output
2015-05-25T17:52:54Z oleo: otwieracz: lucky you, no zombie can eat you then!
2015-05-25T17:52:57Z oleo: lol
2015-05-25T17:53:31Z jackdaniel: while I can't rebind *error-output* from slime, and it doesn't have file descriptor, I have to create intermediate stream
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2015-05-25T18:44:05Z jackdaniel:  /win 15
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2015-05-25T19:11:23Z oleo: besides fixing dynamic-space-size and even bytes-consed-between-gcs i couldn't get some of the tests to suceed, i had to dissect them anyway....
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2015-05-25T19:11:39Z oleo: not sure how to tacke on that....
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2015-05-25T19:38:41Z oleo: well i have some specks in my config which are just outright wrong....
2015-05-25T19:39:04Z oleo: copy-pasted and didn't fix yet....
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2015-05-25T19:43:37Z guaqua: are asserts considered good practice in lisp code? i rarely see them in code :/
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2015-05-25T19:49:55Z nyef: guaqua: It depends on the code. SBCL, for example, treats any type declaration as an assertion.
2015-05-25T19:49:59Z pjb: guaqua: you rarely see them in any code.  They are good practice.
2015-05-25T19:50:14Z pjb: guaqua: also use check-type
2015-05-25T19:51:01Z guaqua: google's common lisp style guide seems to prefer explicit checking for types in apis while assert and check-type are used for internal consistency checks
2015-05-25T19:51:19Z pjb: You may also use #+ to activate the most costly asserts explicitely: #+costly-asserts (assert (equal (compute-something-for-two-hours) t))
2015-05-25T19:51:22Z guaqua: my use lately has been on function parameters
2015-05-25T19:51:55Z guaqua: basically type checking
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2015-05-25T19:53:45Z guaqua: well. the text isn't that clear. maybe google's style guide prefers check-type for function inputs
2015-05-25T19:54:07Z pjb: this is one of their most prominent use cases, indeed.
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2015-05-25T20:11:05Z Fare: guaqua: I once edited the style guide, and I don't remember that about it.
2015-05-25T20:11:29Z Fare: but yes, you should never trust inputs from another program
2015-05-25T20:11:54Z Fare: langsec.org/bof-handout.pdf
2015-05-25T20:13:24Z guaqua: there's this: "Code should ASSERT invariants whose failure indicates that the software is itself broken. Incorrect input should be handled properly at runtime, and must not cause an assertion violation."
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2015-05-25T20:13:35Z guaqua: and this: "CHECK-TYPE, ETYPECASE are also forms of assertion. When one of these fails, that's a detected bug. You should prefer to use CHECK-TYPE over (DECLARE (TYPE ...)) for the inputs of functions. "
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2015-05-25T20:14:15Z guaqua: i'm just looking for the right thing to do when i want to make sure the public api only accepts known input types
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2015-05-25T20:22:12Z Th30n: I would use check-type in that case
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2015-05-25T20:26:44Z ehu: jackdaniel: the mirroring now seems to work: I see a commit of 12 hours ago in the mirror.
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2015-05-25T20:35:10Z Fare: guaqua, yes, input validation is important
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2015-05-25T20:35:41Z Fare: unless you don't care about your computer being pwned by the chinese, all your bank accounts taken by the russian mafia, etc.
2015-05-25T20:36:33Z Fare: I like this proposal by Dan Geer that unless people are free to recompile your sources with features they don't trust disabled, you should be held liable for all the damages caused by running your software.
2015-05-25T20:37:14Z dim: Fare: and yet you published asdf? ;-)
2015-05-25T20:37:32Z dim: anyway, gn!
2015-05-25T20:39:01Z Fare: dim: well, I do allow people to modify the sources and disable features they don't trust...
2015-05-25T20:39:12Z Fare: gn
2015-05-25T20:39:48Z Fare: but you're right: not only doesn't asdf validate its input, it runs arbitrary user-provided code...
2015-05-25T20:41:48Z ehu: pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/display/148648 doesn't say anything about the speed of the lisp itself. it says something about startup time. that adversely affects ECL and ABCL tremendously.
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2015-05-25T20:43:30Z Grue`: i don't see how that test can measure startup time
2015-05-25T20:43:41Z Grue`: since start variable is bound post-startup
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2015-05-25T20:45:44Z ehu: Grue`: ABCL doesn't load anything until it needs it.
2015-05-25T20:46:06Z ehu: (function bindings, fasls, etc)
2015-05-25T20:47:28Z ehu: Grue`: in order to correctly measure ABCL's performance you basically need to do the thing you were going to do twice and measure the second round, if you're going to measure in a fresh image.
2015-05-25T20:47:29Z Fare: but any CL project soon needs most of it :-/
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2015-05-25T20:48:01Z pjb: ehu: you are wrong.
2015-05-25T20:48:18Z ehu: Fare: depends if you're using it for scripting or for full-blown development.
2015-05-25T20:48:20Z pjb: ehu: Read the command.  Read the source of the clall script if you're not convinced.
2015-05-25T20:48:27Z Fare: yes
2015-05-25T20:48:51Z ehu: pjb: the source for the clall script isn't there.
2015-05-25T20:49:06Z ehu: pjb: also, as far as how ABCL works, I'm quite correct.
2015-05-25T20:49:51Z Fare: gitlab on cl.net seems to not make it possible to create an account or edit access control lists
2015-05-25T20:50:33Z ehu: pjb: but I'm sure you knew that. So I don't see any value into plainly putting "you're wrong" here without pointing out the details of my failure.
2015-05-25T20:50:59Z pjb: ehu: what about reading the command?
2015-05-25T20:51:10Z pjb: Can you read some lisp code at all?
2015-05-25T20:51:31Z ehu: Fare: actually, you *should* be able to edit ACLs in your projects such as add new users
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2015-05-25T20:51:48Z ehu now understands why some people will shy away from #lisp
2015-05-25T20:51:52Z loz1: hi guys, how do i convert string from one encoding to another?
2015-05-25T20:51:59Z guaqua: start up all the common lisp implementations, time the compilation of a-star.lisp, print time for each?
2015-05-25T20:52:15Z ehu: pjb: I'm sorry I said anything. but I think you're being obnoxious.
2015-05-25T20:52:21Z loz1 trying to use flexi streams, but still can't do it
2015-05-25T20:52:25Z pjb: ehu: I say "white". You say: 'What you say didn't say "white", it says "black"'. What else can I say that I fucking said "white", and not "black"?
2015-05-25T20:52:26Z guaqua: loz1: babel will help you there
2015-05-25T20:52:38Z loz1: guaqua: ok, thanks
2015-05-25T20:52:53Z pjb: ehu: just read the letters: w h i t e: WHITE, not black.
2015-05-25T20:52:54Z ehu: Fare: I can discuss in #common-lisp.net
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2015-05-25T21:43:39Z ktt9: Hello!
2015-05-25T21:44:37Z ktt9: Does Lisp community have acknowledged gui toolkit?
2015-05-25T21:45:16Z ktt9: Well, bindings, I mean. I have some experience with ltk, and it was quite good, but also very simple.
2015-05-25T21:46:21Z ktt9: So is there any more elaborate gui kits, beside non-open source LispWork's CAPI.
2015-05-25T21:47:49Z Shinmera: You can use Qt through CommonQt (and made nicer through Qtools)
2015-05-25T21:49:26Z Shinmera: See http://shinmera.github.io/qtools/ and https://github.com/Shinmera/qtools/tree/master/examples
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2015-05-25T21:51:56Z ktt9: Shinmera: thanks!
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2015-05-25T21:55:58Z failproofshark: Shinmera: holy crud qtools looks awesome
2015-05-25T21:56:03Z failproofshark stars
2015-05-25T21:56:30Z Shinmera: failproofshark: I hope you won't be disappointed if you do end up trying it out.
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2015-05-25T21:59:08Z wyan: I haven't had much luck building qtools on sbcl + os x :(
2015-05-25T21:59:18Z ktt9: >1 contributor
2015-05-25T21:59:58Z Shinmera: wyan: What's the trouble?
2015-05-25T22:00:01Z ktt9: this makes me a little sad
2015-05-25T22:00:07Z Shinmera: ktt9: Hm?
2015-05-25T22:01:30Z wyan: Shinmera: http://paste.lisp.org/display/148655
2015-05-25T22:01:50Z Shinmera: wyan: Oh dear.
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2015-05-25T22:02:14Z Shinmera: wyan: Can you try quickloading using (ql:quickload :qtools :verbose T) and paste me the log?
2015-05-25T22:02:43Z Shinmera: I don't have a mac, so I can't test on that platform directly, unfortunately.
2015-05-25T22:04:22Z wyan: Shinmera: http://paste.lisp.org/display/148655#1
2015-05-25T22:04:45Z wyan: I sadly don't know much about C++ land but glad to help otherwise
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2015-05-25T22:05:53Z Shinmera: That's not printing as much as it should. How about in a fresh image: (asdf:load-system :qtools :force T :verbose T)
2015-05-25T22:06:56Z Shinmera: I won't be able to do any debugging right now; it's past midnight and I should be in bed soon. I'll see what I can do tomorrow though.
2015-05-25T22:08:42Z wyan: Shinmera: http://paste.lisp.org/display/148655#2
2015-05-25T22:09:10Z Shinmera: Ok, thanks. That'll give me a bit to go on, hopefully.
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2015-05-25T22:09:22Z Shinmera: For now, I wish you all good night!
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2015-05-25T22:09:33Z wyan: I should go to bed soon as well, starting new job tomorrow... but let me know if you have any ideas of what to look at, I'm not very experienced with either CL or Qt really, but will do my best
2015-05-25T22:09:40Z wyan: sharkz: g'night!
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2015-05-25T23:08:23Z Fare: Is ASDF 3.1 in quicklisp going to happen? There was email about that some time ago, then nothing...
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2015-05-25T23:18:46Z Xach: It is going to happen
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2015-05-25T23:21:45Z freehck: Hello everybody.
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2015-05-25T23:24:31Z freehck: People, I started a calculation 5 hours ago. And set the stop condition to parameter `stop-time', which was passed to march function. But I did a mistake: stop-time should be 0.005 but I mistyped and set it to 0.05.
2015-05-25T23:24:56Z freehck: I wonder if there is a way to change it while calculation?
2015-05-25T23:25:27Z freehck: The problem is `stop-time' is a lexically bound symbol.
2015-05-25T23:27:45Z Fare: Xach: thanks!
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2015-05-26T01:52:12Z Fare: so, I have some code to account for success or failure of functions and subfunctions, which I use to report what failed during a self-test of asdf. Is there a good home for that code in an existing cl test system?
2015-05-26T01:52:51Z Fare: this success/failure code also plays well with invoking code from the shell and getting a success/failure to report to the caller
2015-05-26T01:53:16Z pjb: Eventually you will write your own test system :-)
2015-05-26T01:54:31Z Fare: already kind of did (rather, evolved the existing asdf test suite), but I'd like to undo that, and move code to other places.
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2015-05-26T01:57:50Z Fare: the advantage of cl is that it's so easy to reinvent the wheel
2015-05-26T01:58:11Z Fare: the disadvantage is that everyone invents their own wheel
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2015-05-26T02:09:04Z loke: Good morning Lisp
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2015-05-26T02:42:09Z failproofshark: hello loke
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2015-05-26T02:49:23Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-05-26T02:51:30Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-05-26T02:52:29Z theos: hi
2015-05-26T02:52:31Z loke: hello beach
2015-05-26T02:52:47Z loke: http://www.nyef.org.np/
2015-05-26T02:53:20Z loke: failproofshark: And this is your picture: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/de/a8/64/dea86449a84921020d8862142ecd24ed.jpg
2015-05-26T02:53:20Z nyef: Heh. Neat.
2015-05-26T02:54:15Z loke: And this is Fare's: http://www.mbta.com/uploadedimages/Riding_the_T/Accessible_Services/Accessible_Services_List/3_188_2.jpg
2015-05-26T02:54:32Z loke: Not sure how to illustrate pjb
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2015-05-26T03:00:12Z failproofshark: hello beach
2015-05-26T03:00:30Z failproofshark: loke: looks like i have a new github picture
2015-05-26T03:01:06Z loke: failproofshark: Where?
2015-05-26T03:01:16Z failproofshark: loke: the picture you linked
2015-05-26T03:03:12Z loke: Ah, cool :-)
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2015-05-26T03:04:55Z badkins: http://www.curvytron.com/#/room/amazing%2520battle
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2015-05-26T03:09:27Z beach: badkins: Please don't give links without saying what it is about.
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2015-05-26T03:13:32Z badkins: sorry, was desparate for a curvytron game
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2015-05-26T03:32:31Z badkins: but you're absolutely right
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2015-05-26T04:10:44Z pillton: G'day beach.
2015-05-26T04:11:23Z pillton: Fare: Thanks for your email about ASDF stuff. I hope to look in to it soon.
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2015-05-26T04:40:47Z Fare: pillton, which?
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2015-05-26T04:42:11Z pillton: Fare: lisp-executable.
2015-05-26T04:43:16Z Fare: oh, yes.
2015-05-26T04:43:49Z Fare: you could also reuse uiop:run-program, uiop/image, etc.
2015-05-26T04:44:01Z Fare: but that's another thing.
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2015-05-26T04:56:18Z Fare: I've also recently beefed up lisp-invocation a bit ... you could reuse / extend that.
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2015-05-26T05:02:14Z pillton: I don't think I will be introducing any new dependencies. The invocation and image producing requirements are very simple.
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2015-05-26T06:24:30Z p_nathan: Dumb question about SBCL: how fat are the strings?
2015-05-26T06:25:13Z p_nathan: I.e., for a given character #\x, how many bytes does that take up?
2015-05-26T06:25:18Z Bike: i think they are null terminated utf-8 (plus the array tag)
2015-05-26T06:26:08Z p_nathan: At dynamic space size = 1000MB, I have a 119MB file that absolutely refuses to load via alexandria:read-file-into-string, but will come in via read-file-into-byte-vector.
2015-05-26T06:26:21Z p_nathan: (that'd be 119MB on-disk)
2015-05-26T06:26:27Z Bike: refuses as in you get OOM?
2015-05-26T06:26:38Z p_nathan: Heap exhaustion
2015-05-26T06:27:02Z p_nathan: 'Heap exhausted during allocation: 384401408 bytes available, 479656128 requested.'
2015-05-26T06:28:55Z Bike: well, that's like 479 MB, so i guess that's approximately an answer.
2015-05-26T06:29:51Z p_nathan: Note that sbcl --dynamic-space-size 2000 allows me to complete the request, with ROOM giving (after a sb-ext:full t) Dynamic space usage is:   556,061,440 bytes. (roughly 80MB is the resting state).
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2015-05-26T06:30:17Z p_nathan: so I mean, maybe SBCL has an effective character width of 4 bytes per? That'd make me sad. :(
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2015-05-26T06:30:46Z pinterface: http://www.sbcl.org/sbcl-internals/Memory-Layout.html
2015-05-26T06:31:55Z Bike: so utf-32, not utf-8. my mistake.
2015-05-26T06:32:26Z p_nathan: well hten
2015-05-26T06:32:38Z p_nathan: estimation correct: 4 bytes per. Thank you, pinterface
2015-05-26T06:33:49Z ggole: Tough to provide indexing otherwise.
2015-05-26T06:33:57Z pinterface: We Google so you don't have to.(TM)
2015-05-26T06:34:02Z p_nathan: ggole: how do you mean?
2015-05-26T06:34:25Z ggole: If characters are variable size, how would you find the nth one?
2015-05-26T06:34:30Z Bike: utf-8 and utf-16 are variable width, so indexing is more complicated than an addition
2015-05-26T06:34:42Z ggole: You'd have to either build an index or scan the string
2015-05-26T06:35:04Z jackdaniel: it's not that common to look for an index in string, is it?
2015-05-26T06:35:16Z jackdaniel: in a string°
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2015-05-26T06:36:23Z ggole: Strings are arrays, they should support indexing as well as arrays do
2015-05-26T06:36:30Z ggole: *other arrays
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2015-05-26T06:40:01Z jackdaniel: yes, clhs specifically says, that string is an array. But generally they are sequences
2015-05-26T06:40:51Z p_nathan: Huh. I guess this is why I default to ascii for my strings; simplifies life. ;)
2015-05-26T06:41:28Z Bike: too bad about anybody not using english
2015-05-26T06:41:57Z Bike: jackdaniel: ppcre uses indexing, so that should probably be fast
2015-05-26T06:42:10Z p_nathan: when someone asks me to develop software supporting non-english, I will care.
2015-05-26T06:42:11Z Bike: it might be possible to rewrite with a next-character-in-string sort of api, but it's not in cl, i guess
2015-05-26T06:44:27Z jackdaniel: Bike: clhs clearly states string is an array, so there is no discussion here. If that wasn't a case, then ppcre would do it on sequences or coerce string to vector
2015-05-26T06:44:48Z Bike: i know, i mean in regards to how common indexing into a string as an operation is
2015-05-26T06:45:12Z Bike: ppcre uses subst instead of backquote, what on earth
2015-05-26T06:45:13Z jackdaniel: right
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2015-05-26T07:52:08Z Shinmera: Good morning.
2015-05-26T07:52:10Z Shinmera: Is anyone with a Mac Os X system and SBCL around?
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2015-05-26T07:53:29Z antoszka: Shinmera: I'm gonna fire up my company MBP in a minute.
2015-05-26T07:53:39Z antoszka: Shinmera: What's that you need?
2015-05-26T07:54:37Z Shinmera: Can you try quickloading qtools for me?
2015-05-26T07:54:57Z antoszka: sure, i'll catch you on /query not to make more noise here
2015-05-26T07:55:03Z Shinmera: Ok.
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2015-05-26T07:58:59Z smokeink: (let ((slider-position (cffi:alloc :int 0))) ... how to increment slider-position? ...)
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2015-05-26T08:04:50Z smokeink: (incf (cffi:mem-ref slider-position :int)) ; found it
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2015-05-26T08:15:55Z kong0: LISP SUCKS.
2015-05-26T08:16:09Z kong0: FAGGITS
2015-05-26T08:16:38Z antoszka: Such ethical. Much wow.
2015-05-26T08:16:39Z p_l has set mode +b *!*@unaffiliated/ethicalhacker
2015-05-26T08:16:50Z kong0 [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has been kicked from #lisp by p_l (Come back when you get to preschool at least)
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2015-05-26T08:20:06Z theos: he is doing that in a lot of channels right now
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2015-05-26T08:23:26Z flip214: theos: always the same text?
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2015-05-26T08:24:19Z theos: flip214 no. different nonsense. and it has a cloak. looks like a drunk user.
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2015-05-26T08:37:41Z smokeink: if i try (let ((slider-positionf (cffi:mem-ref slider-position :int))) (incf slider-positionf))  , it doesn't seem to work. is slider-positionf holding a copy of the value at slider-position ptr ?
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2015-05-26T08:48:05Z smokeink: http://paste.lisp.org/display/148681
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2015-05-26T08:49:31Z smokeink: is using a macro the only way to achieve it ?
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2015-05-26T08:50:50Z jackdaniel: smokeink: yes, but you can use symbol-macrolet
2015-05-26T08:51:04Z jackdaniel: which is pretty the same as let, except it expands symbol
2015-05-26T08:51:09Z smokeink: yes that's what i was thinking
2015-05-26T08:52:09Z smokeink: but why does (setf (mem-ref ptr-to-int :int) 1984) work and (setf x 1984) doesn't ? how are they different ?
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2015-05-26T08:53:53Z jackdaniel: smokeink: you set t ox value of mem-ref ptr-to-int ..., not reference
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2015-05-26T08:54:15Z jackdaniel: if you (setq x 3) and (incf x), you don't incf 3
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2015-05-26T08:55:06Z smokeink: how does setf know to get the reference?
2015-05-26T08:55:20Z jackdaniel: o, wait, I misunderstood statement
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2015-05-26T08:55:54Z jackdaniel: it doesn't, you define function (defun (setf mem-reference) ...)
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2015-05-26T08:56:03Z jackdaniel: cffi defines°
2015-05-26T08:56:09Z smokeink: got it
2015-05-26T08:56:13Z smokeink: thanks
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2015-05-26T09:00:30Z Shinmera: That's not the only way of teaching setf an expansion.
2015-05-26T09:00:49Z Shinmera: Also see defsetf, define-setf-expander.
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2015-05-26T09:04:49Z smokeink: ok
2015-05-26T09:05:14Z Shinmera has planned to write an article explaining setf in a bit of depth, but hasn't gotten to it yet.
2015-05-26T09:06:21Z smokeink: :)
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2015-05-26T09:23:59Z White_Flame: smokeink: some Lisps have the notion of a "locative", which is basically a pointer to a storage slot
2015-05-26T09:24:11Z White_Flame: and there are libraries to simulate that in CL
2015-05-26T09:24:21Z White_Flame: however, I'm not sure that would slot in over FFI
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2015-05-26T09:26:34Z p_l: locatives are essentially the generic version of what setf does, iirc
2015-05-26T09:26:50Z mrkkrp: Hi. How about good collection of Yasnippet snippets for Common Lisp? Is there any? Can't find anything decent on GitHub.
2015-05-26T09:27:34Z H4ns: locatives are explained in the lisp machine manual https://hanshuebner.github.io/lmman/fd-loc.xml
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2015-05-26T09:30:18Z White_Flame: mrkkrp: haven't heard of those before.  Since Lisp already has source code template expansion (ie, macros), I don't really see any pressing need for them
2015-05-26T09:31:37Z mrkkrp: White_Flame: macros let you abstract code, while snippets let you easier enter the code, these things are different, IMHO
2015-05-26T09:32:13Z H4ns: very much so.  i've seen enough of these "make defclass nicer" macros.
2015-05-26T09:35:31Z Shinmera: Who needs those macros anyway when paredit and multiple cursors make the duplication trivial https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TlRneg==
2015-05-26T09:36:24Z White_Flame: sure, if you get your slot list right the first time
2015-05-26T09:36:47Z White_Flame: not very declarative, that solution is </yoda>
2015-05-26T09:37:37Z White_Flame: I tend to reach for programmatic/declarative solutions, rather than textual solutions
2015-05-26T09:38:01Z Shinmera: What is and what isn't declarative is very much debatable.
2015-05-26T09:38:50Z White_Flame: I don't think it's debatable at all that textual input acceleration of that form does not confer the same benefits in adding new slots
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2015-05-26T09:39:04Z White_Flame: or when redefining what your default slot components should be
2015-05-26T09:39:22Z mrkkrp: Shinmera: these packages solve different problems, snippets basically just let you insert some template that you can fill out. So, anyway, I think I will create a repo like this one https://github.com/swannodette/clojure-snippets, but for common-lisp, for those who use snippets. I just wanted to check out if it's not already done…
2015-05-26T09:40:10Z White_Flame: this isn't the fastest-moving channel, but if google has turned up dry, and nobody's jumped out here, I'd say it's a safe assumption to go for it
2015-05-26T09:40:16Z Shinmera: White_Flame: Imo a full "classic" defclass is more declarative than some "defclass*" that has effects I don't know about.
2015-05-26T09:40:47Z jackdaniel: I agree that snippets accelerate your learning capabilities
2015-05-26T09:40:54Z White_Flame: in the paredit example, it's using a non-repeatable, non-editable pattern on top of defclass as wel
2015-05-26T09:40:59Z White_Flame: just in editor space instead of program space
2015-05-26T09:41:38Z Shinmera: So? The point is that the source code is understandable by anyone, which you lose if you write your own defclass.
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2015-05-26T09:41:56Z White_Flame: whereas defining what it means to have a "standard slot definition" persists, can be modified to affect existing slots, and can be referenced to create new slots
2015-05-26T09:42:23Z White_Flame: that's what documentation is for
2015-05-26T09:42:34Z White_Flame: quick understanding of complex code is usually a fool's errand
2015-05-26T09:42:38Z White_Flame: sure, for non-complex code it's fine
2015-05-26T09:42:44Z Shinmera: defclass is non-complex.
2015-05-26T09:42:53Z White_Flame: 1 use of defclass is non-complexx
2015-05-26T09:42:57Z White_Flame: 300 uses of defclass is complex
2015-05-26T09:43:02Z White_Flame: especially to maintain
2015-05-26T09:43:14Z White_Flame: talking about system complexity, not syntactic complexity
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2015-05-26T09:43:52Z Shinmera: ... The point of writing your own defclass* is to reduce syntactic complexity.
2015-05-26T09:44:05Z White_Flame: it's to reduce maintainability burden
2015-05-26T09:44:16Z White_Flame: when you have to specify 1 thing, you can explicitly and fully specify it
2015-05-26T09:44:25Z White_Flame: when you have to specify many things, those things generally share structure
2015-05-26T09:44:29Z H4ns: i'm not against wrapping defclass in general, just against coming up with wrappers that try to be as general, but better.
2015-05-26T09:44:48Z White_Flame: H4ns: I agree.  They should be DSLs, not General Languages
2015-05-26T09:44:58Z Shinmera: Sure.
2015-05-26T09:45:08Z smokeink: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=645338 :D
2015-05-26T09:46:29Z White_Flame: I agree with that, except for the functional programming quip.  In general, for a pure functional programming language, the difference between macro and executing a function are minimal
2015-05-26T09:46:46Z White_Flame: so functions can suffice, where compile-time code generation would be required for side-effectful languages
2015-05-26T09:47:08Z Shinmera: White_Flame: Just to note: I do write my own defclass wrappers that do one and one specific thing only. And that's fine. I was arguing against the generalised attempt.
2015-05-26T09:47:19Z White_Flame: Shinmera: then we're in agreement
2015-05-26T09:47:29Z Shinmera: Fantastic!
2015-05-26T09:47:34Z White_Flame: \:D/
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2015-05-26T10:10:40Z Grisha: what's the idiomatic way to create with-xxx symbols when defining with-macros?
2015-05-26T10:10:48Z Grisha: hello everyone first ;-)
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2015-05-26T10:12:34Z jackdaniel: Grisha: what do you mean by symbols? (defmacro with-fares-pony ((some stuff here &key with keys) &body body) …) ?
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2015-05-26T10:13:35Z Grisha: jackdaniel, what I would like to have is something like the standard (defmacro defstruct (name ...) `(with-name ..))
2015-05-26T10:13:46Z Grisha: how can I generate with-name on the fly?
2015-05-26T10:15:01Z jackdaniel: hm, maybe (defmacro defstruct-1 (name …) `(progn (defmacro ,(symbolicate 'with "-" name) …) (other-stuff)))
2015-05-26T10:15:02Z flip214: Grisha: the library alexandria has something for you.
2015-05-26T10:15:15Z jackdaniel: while symbolicate is from alexandria
2015-05-26T10:15:17Z White_Flame: (intern (format nil "WITH-~a" name) *package*) is what I tend to use
2015-05-26T10:15:25Z White_Flame: however, you need to be quite careful with *package* at runtime
2015-05-26T10:15:28Z Grisha: jackdaniel, symbolicate looks nice, thanks!
2015-05-26T10:15:28Z flip214: or look at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-defining-your-own.html
2015-05-26T10:15:31Z White_Flame: not much to worry about during compile time
2015-05-26T10:15:49Z Grisha: flip214, thanks for the hint!
2015-05-26T10:15:54Z White_Flame: (and of course, mine assumes the read case)
2015-05-26T10:16:02Z Grisha: I thought there was a ``standard way'' of doing this
2015-05-26T10:16:17Z Grisha: White_Flame, I see
2015-05-26T10:16:49Z White_Flame: but if you're reading/evaling at runtime, you should always wrap it with (let ((*package* ...)) ...)
2015-05-26T10:17:16Z Grisha: White_Flame, I'm not that advanced yet, but thanks for the warning
2015-05-26T10:17:43Z White_Flame: symbols & packages are some of the weirdest things to grok at the "not advanced yet" stage, so just keep your eye out for what goes on if things go bad
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2015-05-26T10:18:25Z Grisha: White_Flame, can you recommend a good description of symbols & packages?
2015-05-26T10:18:28Z jackdaniel: nice introduction to symbols and packages is in ANSI Common-Lisp book
2015-05-26T10:18:37Z Grisha: jackdaniel, reading my mind
2015-05-26T10:18:43Z jackdaniel: indeed
2015-05-26T10:18:57Z jackdaniel: don't worry, I won't tell them about the *other* thing
2015-05-26T10:18:59Z jackdaniel: ;]
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2015-05-26T10:19:13Z Grisha: :-)
2015-05-26T10:19:43Z White_Flame: and yeah, symbolicate will likewise intern into the current *package*
2015-05-26T10:19:59Z White_Flame: which again is fine at compile time
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2015-05-26T10:21:33Z White_Flame: I do find it funny that our libs have "keywordify" and alexandria has "symbolicate"
2015-05-26T10:21:42Z White_Flame: verbing nouns weirds language
2015-05-26T10:22:26Z Grisha: another stupid question: what does ``interned'' exactly mean? A struct is created and filled once the symbol is read?
2015-05-26T10:22:41Z White_Flame: intern means to make one canonical representation
2015-05-26T10:23:25Z White_Flame: so you can have many strings "FOO" that are not eq (the same object), but all "FOO"s in a package will all be eq
2015-05-26T10:23:40Z White_Flame: when turned into symbols
2015-05-26T10:24:30Z Grisha: so when I type (print 'foo) in clisp, it creates a new symbol 'foo and every subsequent call to 'foo is guaranteed to use the ``first'' 'foo?
2015-05-26T10:24:31Z White_Flame: Java also has a method for interning strings, such that strings of the same text will become one canonical string object
2015-05-26T10:24:48Z jackdaniel: Grisha: when you use 'foo, you automatically intern it in current package
2015-05-26T10:24:54Z jackdaniel: interning = registering in package
2015-05-26T10:25:09Z White_Flame: if you say (print 'foo) (print 'foo), the reader asks for a symbol named "FOO" each time 'foo is read
2015-05-26T10:25:12Z jackdaniel: so first use of symbol is it's creation
2015-05-26T10:25:33Z jackdaniel: unless you use #:'foo
2015-05-26T10:25:50Z jackdaniel: '#:foo °
2015-05-26T10:26:04Z White_Flame: '#:foo is not in a package, so there's no place to "intern" it
2015-05-26T10:26:14Z jackdaniel: yes
2015-05-26T10:26:20Z White_Flame: if you manually call (intern "FOO"), the first time it will create a new symbol named that
2015-05-26T10:26:31Z White_Flame: if you subsequently call (intern "FOO"), it will return the existing FOO symbol
2015-05-26T10:26:36Z Grisha: so when I type (print 'foo), it first tries to evaluate the argument to print, evaluating 'foo results in foo and lisp tries to look it up in the current package?
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2015-05-26T10:26:49Z White_Flame: first is read, then is eval
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2015-05-26T10:27:00Z White_Flame: read takes the string "(print 'foo)" and converts it into a list
2015-05-26T10:27:13Z White_Flame: containing (PRINT (QUOTE FOO))
2015-05-26T10:27:21Z Grisha: I see
2015-05-26T10:27:23Z White_Flame: those are all symbols
2015-05-26T10:27:26Z White_Flame: the reader has interned it
2015-05-26T10:27:32Z White_Flame: when PRINT executes, the parameter is already a symbol
2015-05-26T10:27:36Z Grisha: wait a sec
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2015-05-26T10:27:48Z Grisha: ``the reader has interned it'' is not clear to me
2015-05-26T10:27:58Z White_Flame: the reader reads in characters, and creates Lisp objects from them
2015-05-26T10:28:13Z White_Flame: if you do (read "\"FOO\""), it will return the string "FOO"
2015-05-26T10:28:17Z White_Flame: erm, read-from-string
2015-05-26T10:28:45Z White_Flame: if you do (read-from-string "3") it will return the number 3
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2015-05-26T10:28:58Z White_Flame: if you do (read-from-string "blah") it will return the symbol BLAH
2015-05-26T10:29:34Z White_Flame: and it understands lists, so (read-from-string "(print foo)") will return a list with 2 symbols: (PRINT FOO)
2015-05-26T10:29:53Z White_Flame: the reader also understands "reader macros", which is where the single-quote shortcut exists
2015-05-26T10:30:13Z White_Flame: so (read-from-string "(print 'foo)") gets expanded in the reader itself to the list (PRINT (QUOTE FOO))
2015-05-26T10:30:37Z White_Flame: it in effect parses the language
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2015-05-26T10:30:51Z White_Flame: given that the language is just a list of symbols etc
2015-05-26T10:31:01Z Grisha: White_Flame, have to think about it - too much info at once ;-)
2015-05-26T10:31:37Z White_Flame: yeah, just pointing out that the reader is doing things before the code is ever executed
2015-05-26T10:31:56Z White_Flame: once the source code list (PRINT (QUOTE FOO)) is built, only then is PRINT executed, and it already has a symbol
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2015-05-26T10:33:45Z Grisha: so the reader transforms strings into s expressions
2015-05-26T10:34:11Z Grisha: and create the needed symbols
2015-05-26T10:34:12Z White_Flame: the reader understands certain special _characters_, like ' # ( etc
2015-05-26T10:34:31Z White_Flame: which informs what to do with the next incoming characters
2015-05-26T10:34:33Z Grisha: i'm puzzled at what moment of time symbols come into play
2015-05-26T10:34:39Z White_Flame: that's in the reader
2015-05-26T10:35:02Z White_Flame: when the reader hits plain text, it grabs the textual string, and interns it in the current package
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2015-05-26T10:35:13Z White_Flame: (read-from-string "foo") -> the symbol FOO
2015-05-26T10:35:33Z White_Flame: (read-from-string "(foo foo)") -> the list of symbols (FOO FOO)
2015-05-26T10:35:38Z Grisha: aha
2015-05-26T10:36:08Z Grisha: my next q:
2015-05-26T10:36:20Z White_Flame: so converting from textual source code to Lisp structure, lists, symbols, numbers, etc are created at that point
2015-05-26T10:36:31Z Grisha: when reader reads (print 'foo)
2015-05-26T10:36:39Z Grisha: and interning a symbol for print
2015-05-26T10:37:09Z Grisha: at what point does it connect the ``print'' symbol with the code for the print function?
2015-05-26T10:37:17Z White_Flame: the reader doesn't
2015-05-26T10:37:22Z Grisha: who does?
2015-05-26T10:37:25Z White_Flame: say you're in package "MY-CODE"
2015-05-26T10:37:42Z White_Flame: that uses package "CL", an alias for "COMMON-LISP"
2015-05-26T10:37:47Z Grisha: yes
2015-05-26T10:37:58Z White_Flame: when the reader reads "print", it finds the interned version as CL:PRINT
2015-05-26T10:38:05Z White_Flame: and uses that existing symbol
2015-05-26T10:38:10Z Grisha: I see
2015-05-26T10:38:14Z White_Flame: the function is attached to the symbol
2015-05-26T10:38:17Z Grisha: packages = sets of pre-interned symbols
2015-05-26T10:38:40Z White_Flame: yes, that is exactly and only what they are.  (not just pre-interned, though, as you can add or remove symbols at any time)
2015-05-26T10:39:02Z White_Flame: so the reader only returns the symbol.  the compiler/evaluator  looks at what function is attached to the symbol
2015-05-26T10:39:22Z Grisha: I see now
2015-05-26T10:39:33Z White_Flame: (defun foo () 3) is roughly equivalent to (setf (symbol-function 'foo) (lambda () 3))
2015-05-26T10:39:43Z Grisha: I heard this many times
2015-05-26T10:39:49Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2015-05-26T10:39:53Z Grisha: but it's becoming clear now
2015-05-26T10:40:17Z White_Flame: yep, it's an indirection that isn't part of most languages
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2015-05-26T10:41:11Z Grisha: does a package have to contain the code for the functions, symbolic names of which are interned in it?
2015-05-26T10:41:24Z Grisha: probably
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2015-05-26T10:41:51Z Grisha: so a package is a set of interned symbols plus their values/codes
2015-05-26T10:41:54Z White_Flame: no
2015-05-26T10:42:01Z White_Flame: a package is just a collection of symbols
2015-05-26T10:42:25Z White_Flame: a symbol is a structure, which contains a name, back-reference to its package, its value, its function, its p-list
2015-05-26T10:42:54Z Grisha: but its function has to be in the package, doesn't it?
2015-05-26T10:43:10Z White_Flame: functions aren't in packages
2015-05-26T10:43:19Z White_Flame: symbols are
2015-05-26T10:43:25Z White_Flame: functions are just executable bodies
2015-05-26T10:44:03Z White_Flame: which can be stored on a symbol as in defun, or passed around as a lambda, or whatever
2015-05-26T10:44:21Z Grisha: ok, so the evaluator finds a ``print'' at the first position in a list, it tries to look up the code for print, right?
2015-05-26T10:44:45Z White_Flame: when the evaluator sees a list, it grabs the first element of the list
2015-05-26T10:44:52Z Grisha: yes
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2015-05-26T10:45:04Z Grisha: it assumes that the first element is a function (as a rule)
2015-05-26T10:45:08Z White_Flame: it looks up the symbol-function of that symbol, and executes it given the rest of the list as parameters (which it evaluates first)
2015-05-26T10:45:12Z White_Flame: no
2015-05-26T10:45:26Z White_Flame: the first element of a list is a symbol, or a literal lambda
2015-05-26T10:45:35Z White_Flame: (foo 3) -> (funcall (symbol-function 'foo) 3)
2015-05-26T10:45:35Z Grisha: I see
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2015-05-26T10:45:55Z White_Flame: ((lambda (x) (+ x 3)) 5) is also valid, but more uncommon
2015-05-26T10:46:34Z White_Flame: note that (defun foo () 3) and (setf foo 5) can coexist
2015-05-26T10:46:39Z White_Flame: the "value" of foo is 5
2015-05-26T10:46:44Z Grisha: ok, it fetches the symbol-function of the first element of the list
2015-05-26T10:46:49Z White_Flame: but the "function" of the symbol foo is (lambda () 3)
2015-05-26T10:46:53Z Grisha: I see
2015-05-26T10:46:57Z Grisha: two namespaces
2015-05-26T10:46:57Z White_Flame: yes
2015-05-26T10:47:04Z White_Flame: and that's called a "lisp-2"
2015-05-26T10:47:06Z White_Flame: with two namespaces
2015-05-26T10:47:27Z White_Flame: scheme is a "lisp-1", such that the plain value of the symbol at the head of the list is expected to be executable
2015-05-26T10:47:28Z Grisha: where does the symbol-function of say ``print'' come from?
2015-05-26T10:47:41Z White_Flame: in the implementation, (defun print (...) ...)
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2015-05-26T10:48:02Z White_Flame: which again, is equivalent to (setf (symbol-function 'print) (lambda (...) ...))
2015-05-26T10:48:08Z Grisha: and this implementation is not a part of a package?
2015-05-26T10:48:24Z White_Flame: the "implementation" meaning the Lisp environment you're running in
2015-05-26T10:48:34Z White_Flame: again, the only things that packages hold are symbols
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2015-05-26T10:48:47Z White_Flame: other things hang off of symbols, but that's the only role of packages
2015-05-26T10:49:12Z Grisha: you're a great teacher
2015-05-26T10:49:28Z Grisha: but one thing is still not clear
2015-05-26T10:49:38Z Grisha: when I just start a new clisp session
2015-05-26T10:49:52Z Grisha: a couple of functions are already implemented
2015-05-26T10:49:58Z Grisha: like print estc
2015-05-26T10:50:00Z White_Flame: _many_ functions are already implemented
2015-05-26T10:50:01Z Grisha: *etc
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2015-05-26T10:50:04Z Grisha: yes
2015-05-26T10:50:20Z Grisha: and you're saying that those implementation are not in a package
2015-05-26T10:50:32Z Grisha: I mean the literal code of (defun print (...) ...)
2015-05-26T10:50:41Z Grisha: where is it stored?
2015-05-26T10:50:59Z White_Flame: you mean the compiled assembly code?
2015-05-26T10:51:08Z White_Flame: it's held in a function object
2015-05-26T10:51:13Z White_Flame: on the heap
2015-05-26T10:51:22Z mtd quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2015-05-26T10:51:37Z White_Flame: the list representation of the source code is generally temporary, unless it's saved in debug structures
2015-05-26T10:51:53Z Grisha: ok, suppose I have a package with a single symbol my-print
2015-05-26T10:52:14Z Grisha: with (defun my-print (x) (print x))
2015-05-26T10:52:34Z White_Flame: package contains the symbol MY-PRINT
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2015-05-26T10:52:50Z Grisha: and where does the code for it come from?
2015-05-26T10:53:06Z White_Flame: the symbol MY-PRINT points to the name string "MY-PRINT", to the compiled function object, to the package object
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2015-05-26T10:53:32Z Grisha: and this compiled function object is not a part of the package?
2015-05-26T10:53:48Z White_Flame: correct, packages only regard symbols
2015-05-26T10:53:53Z White_Flame: the function object exists on the heap
2015-05-26T10:54:00Z White_Flame: if nothing points to it, it's garbage collected
2015-05-26T10:54:09Z White_Flame: the symbol MY-PRINT does reference it, however
2015-05-26T10:54:18Z Grisha: ok, package = .h file, what is the corresponding .so file?
2015-05-26T10:54:28Z White_Flame: these concepts don't apply to Lisp
2015-05-26T10:54:31Z Grisha: ok
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2015-05-26T10:54:51Z White_Flame: the contents of packages are automatically created as the reader reads symbols
2015-05-26T10:55:01Z White_Flame: (though the package properties are defined explicitly with defpackage)
2015-05-26T10:55:03Z Grisha: I tend to think about packages as a means of creating libraries
2015-05-26T10:55:15Z Grisha: sharing both declarations of what's in there and the code
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2015-05-26T10:55:31Z White_Flame: libraries are often spread as source code
2015-05-26T10:56:01Z White_Flame: which are generally linked into the currently running Lisp via defpackage and defun (and other def* forms)
2015-05-26T10:56:40Z White_Flame: lisp object files are very implementation-dependent, and can change even between versions of the same Lisp implementation
2015-05-26T10:56:51Z White_Flame: people normally don't interface with them directly
2015-05-26T10:56:57Z Grisha: so it means that the defun definition of my-print should be executed before using it?
2015-05-26T10:57:03Z White_Flame: yes
2015-05-26T10:57:07Z Grisha: I see now
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2015-05-26T10:57:10Z Grisha: it solves my puzzle
2015-05-26T10:57:37Z Grisha: I see now
2015-05-26T10:57:42Z White_Flame: though when compiling a single .lisp file, there can be a lot of lenience to ordering
2015-05-26T10:57:58Z Grisha: the name of my-print in the defun definition is not really important, it's just a function of N arguments
2015-05-26T10:58:01Z White_Flame: forward references are incredibly rare.  I've never seen them in practice
2015-05-26T10:58:08Z Grisha: only by binding it to a symbol, we give it a name
2015-05-26T10:58:41Z White_Flame: correct.  However, the compiler will usually help you by recognizing DEFUN or LABELS usage, and note the name on the function itself for error reporting
2015-05-26T10:59:01Z White_Flame: but this isn't anything visible through the standard APIs
2015-05-26T10:59:28Z Grisha: I think I start understanding now
2015-05-26T10:59:48Z Grisha: thank you a lot indeed White_Flame
2015-05-26T10:59:50Z White_Flame: but if you have my-print, I can do: (let ((printer #'my-print)) (mapc printer '(1 2 3)))
2015-05-26T10:59:59Z White_Flame: and just treat the function object on its own
2015-05-26T11:00:00Z White_Flame: sure
2015-05-26T11:00:23Z Grisha: yes, that's just pointing printer to the code of my-print
2015-05-26T11:00:45Z White_Flame: right.  I found it via the symbol my-print, but the function object itself is just an executable standalone body
2015-05-26T11:01:22Z Grisha: and, I suppose, the evaluator creates symbols when evaluating (defun ...) forms, right?
2015-05-26T11:01:36Z White_Flame: and thus it's not really the code "of" (as in "owned by") my-print, but the code behind that symbol
2015-05-26T11:01:47Z White_Flame: the reader does
2015-05-26T11:01:56Z Grisha: crazy
2015-05-26T11:01:59Z White_Flame: read->eval->print->loop
2015-05-26T11:02:21Z White_Flame: the reader turns strings into a syntax tree.  The evaluator runs the syntax tree
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2015-05-26T11:02:55Z Grisha: I heard it many times, but it never made so much sense to me
2015-05-26T11:03:04Z White_Flame: and the syntax tree is really, really easy to use compared to other languages, as it's just lists
2015-05-26T11:03:05Z psy_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2015-05-26T11:03:15Z White_Flame: it takes time
2015-05-26T11:03:19Z loz: does travis build your cl project?
2015-05-26T11:03:34Z loz: i have install.sh failed
2015-05-26T11:03:46Z Grisha: White_Flame, just wondering how many times you had to explain that ;-)
2015-05-26T11:03:57Z White_Flame: not too many times
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2015-05-26T11:06:02Z Grisha: White_Flame, I've looked into different books on that and always found the explanation too superficial
2015-05-26T11:06:27Z White_Flame: the biggest problem is that you can't ask a book questions about your particular understanding hangups ;)
2015-05-26T11:06:37Z Grisha: exactly!
2015-05-26T11:07:55Z Grisha: White_Flame, so if i'm using say an external library, i have to have executed all the source code of that library before I can call its functions?
2015-05-26T11:08:11Z White_Flame: that's the typical method of loading a library
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2015-05-26T11:08:23Z White_Flame: certain commercial lisps maintain a more compatible binary loading format
2015-05-26T11:08:36Z White_Flame: so that they can distribute secret sauce without revealing the source code
2015-05-26T11:09:05Z Grisha: it looks cumbersome if I intend to use a small subset of it
2015-05-26T11:09:18Z White_Flame: not really.  Use quicklisp if you don't already have it installed
2015-05-26T11:09:24Z Grisha: I mean skimming through the whole source code
2015-05-26T11:09:39Z White_Flame: there are package definition systems which let you load in libraries with 1 command
2015-05-26T11:09:46Z White_Flame: that's what documentation is for
2015-05-26T11:10:00Z Grisha: I see, but still loading the library can take more time than using it
2015-05-26T11:10:08Z jackdaniel: glory is one hack away
2015-05-26T11:10:10Z White_Flame: but having the source also means that you can pop into it if you need to change it etc
2015-05-26T11:10:10Z Grisha: hypothetically
2015-05-26T11:10:19Z Grisha: yes, I see
2015-05-26T11:10:23Z White_Flame: the compiled binaries are cached on your system, so loading is only slow the first time
2015-05-26T11:11:10Z White_Flame: if you upgrade your lisp version, or the library version, things will rebuild the next time
2015-05-26T11:11:27Z White_Flame: it's a bit gentoo, but fully automated ;)
2015-05-26T11:11:37Z jackdaniel: eventually you can compile your library to ordinary shared object and access it with cffi - it allows using them from the outside world
2015-05-26T11:11:47Z jackdaniel: but you'll have to call it with cffi from then on
2015-05-26T11:12:14Z White_Flame: erm, you talking about lisp libraries?
2015-05-26T11:12:26Z jackdaniel: yes
2015-05-26T11:12:31Z White_Flame: I guess with ECL?
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2015-05-26T11:12:55Z jackdaniel: hm, haven't tought about that before saying
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2015-05-26T11:13:01Z jackdaniel: yes, it's implementation specific
2015-05-26T11:13:04Z jackdaniel: mb
2015-05-26T11:13:08Z White_Flame: because FFI is for calling C interfaces, and Lisp doesn't generally expose C interfaces
2015-05-26T11:13:16Z Grisha: White_Flame, thanks a lot again
2015-05-26T11:13:21Z White_Flame: np
2015-05-26T11:13:26Z Grisha: White_Flame, I think I learned a lot today
2015-05-26T11:13:32Z White_Flame: good!
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2015-05-26T11:14:08Z Grisha: White_Flame, having said that reading all those books have probably been necessary in order to grasp your explanation without asking thousand more qs
2015-05-26T11:14:20Z White_Flame: yes
2015-05-26T11:14:48Z White_Flame: enough people come here without any background understanding, wishing to have all explained to them.  Doesn't work out well, and they're usually dismissed quickly
2015-05-26T11:16:12Z Posterdati: hi
2015-05-26T11:16:18Z White_Flame: re
2015-05-26T11:17:31Z Posterdati: I've got a problem with i2c and iolib.syscalls. I'm trying to open i2c device and configure it via ioctl, but it seems that arguments passed to ioctl have to be of pointer type... Then ioctl couldn't work with I2C_SLAVE command!
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2015-05-26T11:19:06Z Grisha: White_Flame, is there an online help in CLISP?
2015-05-26T11:19:47Z White_Flame: "online help" is usually links to the CL spec, which is usually configured in the editor, not the Lisp environment itself
2015-05-26T11:20:01Z Grisha: I see
2015-05-26T11:20:09Z White_Flame: (but I don't use it integreated like that anyway)
2015-05-26T11:20:23Z White_Flame: -e
2015-05-26T11:20:37Z smokeink: Grisha do you use emacs ?
2015-05-26T11:20:42Z Grisha: smokeink, vi
2015-05-26T11:21:05Z smokeink: with slimv ?
2015-05-26T11:21:07Z White_Flame: emacs is the primary integration target for SLIME, which if you're not using is crimping your style
2015-05-26T11:22:02Z mrkkrp: So, here's some snippets for a start, I will expand the collection later. Hope it's useful. https://github.com/mrkkrp/common-lisp-snippets
2015-05-26T11:22:09Z mrkkrp: Got to go now...
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2015-05-26T11:22:43Z Grisha: White_Flame, I used to use Emacs, but some couple years ago switched to vi and really liked it
2015-05-26T11:22:50Z Grisha: have to take a look at slimv
2015-05-26T11:23:09Z White_Flame: I basically only use emacs because of Lisp
2015-05-26T11:23:19Z smokeink: slimv is cool but it's not as complete as slime
2015-05-26T11:23:48Z Shinmera: Grisha: You might also be interested in reading https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/265
2015-05-26T11:23:48Z Grisha: I sometimes try to get back to emacs
2015-05-26T11:23:49Z White_Flame: regardless of editor preference, if you want to use Lisp well, emacs really is the supported place to be
2015-05-26T11:24:01Z Grisha: and find myself editing ~/.emacs in vi
2015-05-26T11:24:04Z Grisha: and then I give up
2015-05-26T11:24:15Z jackdaniel: Grisha: there is evil mode, which brings vi to emacs
2015-05-26T11:24:17Z smokeink: Grisha, just use emacs until you get used to lisp
2015-05-26T11:24:28Z Grisha: will do
2015-05-26T11:24:29Z jackdaniel: so transition should be not-that-painful
2015-05-26T11:24:55Z smokeink: i tried vim before.. i didn't want to use emacs either,but vim does not support lisp well
2015-05-26T11:25:25Z smokeink: i tried my best not to switch to emacs but eventually i had to
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2015-05-26T11:25:34Z Grisha: the question of the editor choice resulted in way more participants than the question of the symbols and packages ;-)
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2015-05-26T11:25:54Z jackdaniel: bikeshed paradox
2015-05-26T11:26:00Z jackdaniel: maybe not paradox, syndrome
2015-05-26T11:26:09Z smokeink: you can't experiment with lisp if you don't have a proper environment
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2015-05-26T11:26:29Z Grisha: thanks a lot guys, have to go in a stupid meeting
2015-05-26T11:26:30Z Shinmera: Grisha: I would've chimed in about the symbols stuff, but I already wrote a blog about it and White_Flame was doing a good job at it anyway.
2015-05-26T11:26:52Z Grisha: Shinmera, could you share the link?
2015-05-26T11:26:59Z jackdaniel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_Law_of_Triviality
2015-05-26T11:27:04Z Shinmera: Grisha: I already did.
2015-05-26T11:27:10Z Grisha: oops
2015-05-26T11:27:58Z Grisha: I see now
2015-05-26T11:28:00Z Grisha: thanks a lot!
2015-05-26T11:28:06Z Grisha: see you guys!
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2015-05-26T11:29:28Z loz: how can one edit .emacs without executing elisp?
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2015-05-26T11:30:13Z White_Flame: it's just a plain text file...
2015-05-26T11:30:38Z p_l: depends where...
2015-05-26T11:30:46Z p_l looks at his literate programming emacs config
2015-05-26T11:33:01Z loz: White_Flame: but you should check if your changes work)
2015-05-26T11:33:29Z loz: or emacs can fail on next start
2015-05-26T11:33:52Z White_Flame: right, but you should restart in general every time you edit .emacs
2015-05-26T11:34:10Z White_Flame: same as with modifying a lisp vm, your changed environment might differ from a clean reload
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2015-05-26T11:39:50Z loz: might, but usually they aren't
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2015-05-26T12:31:40Z chrnybo:  /msg knobo "Hei, beklager at det ikke passet med lispmøtet, skulle på familietur den dagen."
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2015-05-26T12:34:06Z Xach: please, no secret codes
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2015-05-26T12:34:52Z theos: nobody does that with passwords anymore
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2015-05-26T12:38:38Z White_Flame uses super secure triple-ROT13
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2015-05-26T12:43:39Z nyef: White_Flame: That's just about as strong as applying a Caesar cypher 39 times, isn't it?
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2015-05-26T13:05:46Z kjeldahl: Wow, in that case I'm fluent in triple-ROT13! I suspected I had special abilities, but wasn't sure which ones.
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2015-05-26T13:27:41Z chrnybo: kjeldahl: Decryption aside, were you at the lisp gathering in Oslo on May 13th, by the way?
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2015-05-26T13:30:45Z kjeldahl: chrnybo: Unfortunately not. I fear I'm not nearly hardcore enough. :-)
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2015-05-26T13:31:56Z kjeldahl: Would be cool to attend though. Maybe next time.
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2015-05-26T13:42:45Z otwieracz: Huh. I have two classes, A and B.
2015-05-26T13:42:51Z otwieracz: Each creates ningle app instance.
2015-05-26T13:42:56Z otwieracz: Listening on different port.
2015-05-26T13:43:05Z otwieracz: I start A, and in responds on port A.
2015-05-26T13:43:14Z otwieracz: But after starting B, it responds on both A and B ports.
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2015-05-26T13:44:38Z pjb: Good.
2015-05-26T13:44:48Z otwieracz: But why the heck?
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2015-05-26T13:44:57Z pjb: Because that's how you programmed it.
2015-05-26T13:45:11Z otwieracz: But I have no idea how I've done this :)
2015-05-26T13:45:22Z pjb: That could be a problem.
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2015-05-26T13:45:27Z pjb: What about some debugging?
2015-05-26T13:46:22Z otwieracz: Both A and B inherits class C.
2015-05-26T13:46:33Z otwieracz: IN class C I've got clackup string.
2015-05-26T13:46:39Z otwieracz: clackup call*
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2015-05-26T13:46:55Z otwieracz: With specified listen port.
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2015-05-26T13:51:32Z otwieracz: Both clack instances uses different hunchentoot acceptors.
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2015-05-26T13:57:15Z otwieracz: Is there some caveeat about one LISP running multiple hunchentoots?
2015-05-26T13:57:39Z otwieracz: Looks like it's only creating nex acceptor.
2015-05-26T13:57:45Z H4ns: easy-handlers are not acceptor specific
2015-05-26T13:57:46Z otwieracz: But still doing exactly the same.
2015-05-26T13:58:04Z H4ns: but you can have as many instances you like and if you don't use easy-handlers, there is no problem.
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2015-05-26T13:58:13Z otwieracz: But I see ningle is creating acceptors.
2015-05-26T13:58:19Z H4ns: i don't know clack and in don't know what caveats it has.
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2015-05-26T14:24:27Z oleo: helloo :)
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2015-05-26T14:26:17Z smokeink: hi
2015-05-26T14:26:42Z oleo: hello smokeink
2015-05-26T14:26:50Z oleo: how are you ?
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2015-05-26T14:41:12Z theos: does Doug Hoyte come here?
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2015-05-26T14:49:05Z oleo: theos: why ?
2015-05-26T14:49:19Z oleo: i'm sure he is around tho....
2015-05-26T14:50:01Z theos: oleo i have his book :D was just wondering if he hangs around
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2015-05-26T14:50:19Z oleo: i have his book too
2015-05-26T14:50:22Z oleo: :D
2015-05-26T14:50:45Z theos hi5s oleo 
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2015-05-26T14:51:02Z oleo: i have 2 versions of his code a lol-working.lisp and lol-book.lisp....
2015-05-26T14:51:28Z oleo: lol-working is the working parts lol-book is the complete code....
2015-05-26T14:52:04Z oleo: i think he uses cmucl
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2015-05-26T15:00:13Z kami: Good afternoon.
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2015-05-26T15:00:58Z oleo: afternoon
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2015-05-26T15:05:42Z failproofshark: hello all
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2015-05-26T15:05:56Z oleo: hello failproofshark
2015-05-26T15:06:05Z failproofshark: how are you oleo
2015-05-26T15:06:16Z oleo: fine, thank you failproofshark, and you ?
2015-05-26T15:06:37Z oleo: my right foot is aching a little bit but it's ok....
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2015-05-26T15:16:46Z failproofshark: i'm doing well thanks, just drinking some tea
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2015-05-26T15:21:04Z oleo: me too
2015-05-26T15:21:15Z oleo: black tea
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2015-05-26T15:21:34Z oleo: i just had too much coffee again, thought it's time to switch....
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2015-05-26T15:21:57Z oleo: coffee does no good to me, it's only good in the morning actually...
2015-05-26T15:22:13Z failproofshark: oleo: nice. do you happen to know what kind? (earl grey, assam, ceylon etc?)
2015-05-26T15:22:38Z H4ns: maybe you want to discuss your beverage choices and preferences in #lispcafe?
2015-05-26T15:22:44Z failproofshark: H4ns: right sorry
2015-05-26T15:22:54Z oleo: i can't enjoy coffee, i drink it mostly cause i have the need to drink something, tho i try to drink other stuff (bottle water, or some lemonade or so)
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2015-05-26T15:23:10Z oleo: well i like earl grey, mine is not earl grey, i drink earl grey at work
2015-05-26T15:23:12Z oleo: heh
2015-05-26T15:23:14Z oleo: :)
2015-05-26T15:23:31Z theos: you can write CL code for a coffee machine
2015-05-26T15:23:36Z oleo: hahaha
2015-05-26T15:23:43Z failproofshark: well, there was the kegbot
2015-05-26T15:23:58Z failproofshark: and i couldve swore ive seen a tea timer written in CL floating around github somewhere
2015-05-26T15:24:04Z failproofshark: or maybe that was ruby...
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2015-05-26T15:26:57Z theos: a CL interpreter running on a microcontroller would be awesome!
2015-05-26T15:27:56Z oleo: like for a robotic arm or what ?
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2015-05-26T15:28:12Z oleo: lisp was even in space, my bad!
2015-05-26T15:28:14Z oleo: lol
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2015-05-26T15:28:59Z oleo: together with java......
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2015-05-26T15:32:05Z kami: I am calling a function with a restart-case form in it and have wrapped the call in a handler-bind which uses different invoke-restarts.
2015-05-26T15:32:11Z pjb: theos: microcontroller is a controller implemented with a microprocessor, right?  Nowadays, microprocessors have multiple cores, multiple megabyte caches, multiple gigahertz cycles.  How would CL running on such microprocessors be awesome?
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2015-05-26T15:32:36Z pjb: LISP on the 7090 was awesome.   Lisp on nowadays hardware is barely noticeable.
2015-05-26T15:32:40Z kami: But I'm dropped into the slime debugger.
2015-05-26T15:32:47Z kami: Is this expected behaviour?
2015-05-26T15:32:53Z oleo: what was 7090 like ?
2015-05-26T15:33:33Z pjb: nice.
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2015-05-26T15:33:48Z theos: pjb microcontroller is like a microprocessor with memory on chip.
2015-05-26T15:33:49Z pjb: Its assembler had CAR, CDR, XEV (eval).
2015-05-26T15:34:04Z oleo: oh
2015-05-26T15:34:12Z pjb: theos: all modern microprocessors have the cache memory on chip.
2015-05-26T15:34:16Z theos: i should have mentioned 8bit
2015-05-26T15:34:22Z pjb: Why?
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2015-05-26T15:34:41Z theos: pjb low power consumption and low other resources
2015-05-26T15:34:47Z pjb: CL cannot run on 8bit, its fixnums are specified to be at least 16 bits.
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2015-05-26T15:35:07Z pjb: A5 is low power consumption.
2015-05-26T15:35:33Z theos: pjb because you dont need a 64bit 4core processor with 8GB ram for a toaster
2015-05-26T15:35:48Z pjb: Anyways, there's no point discussion further, this was only to demonstrate that the assomptions behind "<theos> a CL interpreter running on a microcontroller would be awesome!" have become idiotic.
2015-05-26T15:36:01Z theos: ah yes intel atom chips can be used
2015-05-26T15:36:28Z failproofshark: kami: are you using handler-bind to bind the restarts?
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2015-05-26T15:37:00Z pjb: theos: https://medium.com/@21dotco/a-bitcoin-miner-in-every-device-and-in-every-hand-e315b40f2821
2015-05-26T15:37:18Z pjb: theos: of course, http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/05/20/bitcoin_mining_toaster_stealth/
2015-05-26T15:37:42Z theos: hehe nice
2015-05-26T15:37:44Z pjb: but the point is that we do put 64-bit 4core processors with 8GB ram in toasters, because it's cheap and easy.
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2015-05-26T15:37:58Z kami: failproofshark: (handler-bind ((some-condition (lambda () (invoke-restart 'continue)))) (function-with-restart-case-in-int))
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2015-05-26T15:38:41Z pjb: failproofshark: use with-simple-restart to bind restarts.
2015-05-26T15:38:57Z kami: pjb: it was me asking. Thank you.
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2015-05-26T15:39:53Z pjb: In general, you may use restart-case.
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2015-05-26T15:43:03Z kami: pjb: my real question is: how can I avoid the invocation of the debugger and select the restart 'beforehand'?
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2015-05-26T15:45:20Z pjb: (with-simple-restart (continue "Continue") (handler-bind ((error (lambda (condition) (declare (ignore condition)) (invoke-restart 'continue)))) (error "hi")))
2015-05-26T15:45:50Z pjb: You cannot select a restart before hand, because restarts are in the dynamic environment.
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2015-05-26T15:46:53Z failproofshark: kami: are you looking for something equivalent to a try catch? perhaps something like handler-case would work?
2015-05-26T15:46:57Z failproofshark:   (handler-case (let ((gameparameters (sanitize-input (filter-parameters _parsed '("genres" "companies"))))
2015-05-26T15:47:00Z failproofshark:             oh man
2015-05-26T15:47:01Z failproofshark: sorry
2015-05-26T15:47:09Z smokeink: Shinmera i just played with https://github.com/Shinmera/parasol , it's really cool
2015-05-26T15:47:13Z failproofshark: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/beyond-exception-handling-conditions-and-restarts.html <-- meant to link this
2015-05-26T15:47:31Z pjb: but indeed, catching the condition directly is usually sufficient.
2015-05-26T15:47:40Z failproofshark: check out the section labeled "java-style exception handling"
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2015-05-26T15:48:06Z kami: pjb, failproofshark: I guess I will then introduce a special variable with which I can control the 'default' behaviour.
2015-05-26T15:48:11Z kami: thank you
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2015-05-26T15:49:10Z Shinmera: smokeink: Wait, you actually got it to run?
2015-05-26T15:49:14Z smokeink: yes
2015-05-26T15:49:17Z smokeink: :D
2015-05-26T15:49:29Z Shinmera: Huh, well, colour me surprised. It's not supposed to be in a usable state right now.
2015-05-26T15:50:30Z smokeink: yes it has some bugs but i could run it - it took me about 1-2 h to compile the qt stuff and figure how to install the dependencies
2015-05-26T15:51:08Z theos: pjb that was a good idea. thanks
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2015-05-26T15:52:12Z Shinmera: smokeink: Yeah, installing Qt is a major thorn in my side. I might write some autocompile helpers for that some day.
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2015-05-26T15:53:06Z failproofshark: Shinmera: would qtools and other stuff you've written with/for qt not work with qt packages provided by most linux distros?
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2015-05-26T15:54:00Z Shinmera: failproofshark: I'm thinking non-linux.
2015-05-26T15:54:19Z Shinmera: Plus, distribution as a binary is another case that is less than nice at the moment.
2015-05-26T15:54:36Z failproofshark: ah ok
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2015-05-26T15:57:14Z Shinmera: I'm mostly thinking a lib that a) allows you to automatically build the required libs (smoke, mostly) b) provides ready to use .so/.dll/.whatnots for most major platforms.
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2015-05-26T16:07:25Z smokeink: http://paste.lisp.org/display/148686  these are the steps i followed to install qt
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2015-05-26T16:12:45Z Shinmera: minion: memo for smokeink: The kdebindings-smokeqt package from the AUR works just fine.
2015-05-26T16:12:45Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell smokeink when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-05-26T17:43:56Z otwieracz: Guys, *help*.
2015-05-26T17:43:59Z otwieracz: My mind is blowing.
2015-05-26T17:44:01Z otwieracz: http://paste.lisp.org/display/148687#1
2015-05-26T17:44:50Z otwieracz: Why in the output first uwl3 is different from second uwl1?
2015-05-26T17:44:54Z otwieracz: *partially*?
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2015-05-26T17:47:13Z Bike: it looks like you may be modifying constant data.
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2015-05-26T17:47:36Z otwieracz: But where?
2015-05-26T17:47:57Z Bike: (setf (getf worker :status) ...), if worker equals the result from handler-case when there's an error.
2015-05-26T17:48:08Z otwieracz: OK
2015-05-26T17:48:16Z Bike: no, that's wrong
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2015-05-26T17:49:49Z Bike: it's tangential but you should probably fix that one place uses :requests-taken and another uses :request-taken
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2015-05-26T17:49:59Z otwieracz: Yeah, I've already fixed this.
2015-05-26T17:50:05Z otwieracz: That wasn't the point.
2015-05-26T17:50:46Z otwieracz: However, I've modified not to edit constant data.
2015-05-26T17:50:49Z Bike: i know, it's just bugging me
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2015-05-26T17:51:37Z otwieracz: http://paste.lisp.org/display/148688#1
2015-05-26T17:52:11Z otwieracz: uwl3: test2-nonexistant has status error
2015-05-26T17:52:25Z otwieracz: next, uwl1, same variable – test2-nonexistant has status ok
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2015-05-26T17:53:14Z otwieracz: There is only one place I am setfing updated-workers-list/
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2015-05-26T17:54:22Z Bike: The only thing I can think of is that you're somehow modifying the worker list after putting it in the list, but I don't see where.
2015-05-26T17:54:44Z otwieracz: Maybe compiler is reusing something badly?
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2015-05-26T17:55:00Z Bike: compiler bugs are unlikely.
2015-05-26T17:55:11Z otwieracz: Maybe it's a feature :)
2015-05-26T17:55:16Z otwieracz: And I am doing something wrong.
2015-05-26T17:55:18Z Bike: could you change (append updated-workers-list (list worker)) to (append updated-workers-list (copy-list worker)) and see if I have the right idea?
2015-05-26T17:55:28Z Bike: ...er, (list (copy-list worker)) that is.
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2015-05-26T17:56:13Z otwieracz: That was exactly kind of issue I was thinking about.
2015-05-26T17:56:22Z otwieracz: And, yes, that was the problem.
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2015-05-26T17:56:34Z otwieracz: Now it's ok.
2015-05-26T17:57:05Z otwieracz: I was feeling it will be something like this – but can somebody now explain me real source of problem and how not to do this again?
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2015-05-26T17:59:25Z Bike: well, what's basically happening is that you put the worker in updated-workers-list, and then modify the worker later, which modifies the one in updated-workers-list because it's the same list. but i don't see where that's happening.
2015-05-26T17:59:58Z otwieracz: That makes sense.
2015-05-26T18:00:00Z otwieracz: Only:
2015-05-26T18:00:00Z otwieracz:             (setf (getf worker :requests-taken)
2015-05-26T18:00:00Z otwieracz:                   (getf worker-status :requests-taken)
2015-05-26T18:00:00Z otwieracz:                   (getf worker :status)
2015-05-26T18:00:02Z otwieracz:                   (getf worker-status :status))
2015-05-26T18:00:05Z otwieracz: Is modified.
2015-05-26T18:00:22Z otwieracz: But this is dolist, this should be completely different worker instance.
2015-05-26T18:00:35Z Bike: yeah. i'm stumped.
2015-05-26T18:01:05Z Bike: Oh, I have an idea. How do you construct the workers to begin with? Maybe they share structure.
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2015-05-26T18:01:56Z otwieracz: http://paste.lisp.org/display/148688#2
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2015-05-26T18:02:28Z Bike: that might be it then.
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2015-05-26T18:02:49Z Bike: add the workers and then try (write (workers this) :circle t)
2015-05-26T18:03:10Z Bike: you're modifying a backquoted list, see?
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2015-05-26T18:03:24Z otwieracz: right
2015-05-26T18:03:35Z otwieracz: Is this somehow different from (list …)?
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2015-05-26T18:04:19Z Bike: `(:name ,name :address ,address :port ,port :status ok :requests-taken 0) is probably read as something like (list* :name name :address address :port port '(:status ok :requests-taken 0))
2015-05-26T18:04:34Z Bike: so, when you modify :status, you're modifying that constant data
2015-05-26T18:04:54Z Bike: ` is intended for constant data, like macro return values, not stuff you're going to alter
2015-05-26T18:05:12Z Bike: since that constant data is shared between workers, when you modify it for one you modify it for the others.
2015-05-26T18:05:14Z otwieracz: So I should use (list) when I believe I will modify stuff later?
2015-05-26T18:05:19Z Bike: yes.
2015-05-26T18:05:23Z Bike: (list :name name etc
2015-05-26T18:05:31Z jackdaniel: )
2015-05-26T18:05:40Z Bike: list is guaranteed to make a fresh list, so every worker will have its own data
2015-05-26T18:05:54Z otwieracz: This was terryfying experience :)
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2015-05-26T18:07:41Z otwieracz: Hovewer, we're alive.
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2015-05-26T18:21:24Z jackdaniel: :)
2015-05-26T18:21:33Z jackdaniel: <-- saviour
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2015-05-26T18:24:32Z oleo: a bien tot!
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2015-05-26T20:18:32Z aeth: What's more lispy? (map nil #'foo y) or (loop for x in y do (foo x))
2015-05-26T20:19:15Z Xach: aeth: i've seen older lispers use (mapc #'foo y) instead of map nil.
2015-05-26T20:19:33Z Xach: if i saw that loop form, i'd wonder if you just didn't know the shorter options.
2015-05-26T20:19:44Z aeth: that loop reminds me of Python, actually.
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2015-05-26T22:17:21Z warex: what options do I have to implement authentication over hunchentoot?
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2015-05-26T22:21:46Z eudoxia: use clack and the session middleware
2015-05-26T22:23:14Z knobo: how can I make an array in to a vector? ex:  (make-array (list 1 1) :initial-element 0.0d0) into (vector (vector 0.0d0))
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2015-05-26T22:32:38Z Bike: knobo: you'd have to loop over the dimensions (cl:array-dimensions) making vectors
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2015-05-26T22:33:37Z knobo: ok
2015-05-26T22:33:43Z oGMo: knobo: what do you mean (vector (vector 1d0)), a vector of vectors?
2015-05-26T22:33:56Z oGMo: err, 0d0 but yeah
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2015-05-27T03:41:07Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-05-27T03:41:44Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-05-27T03:41:47Z theos: mornin beach
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2015-05-27T04:05:59Z beach: Another advantage of first-class global environments:  Previously in CLOS, I carefully invented names for slot writers that are different from those of the readers so that client code would not accidentally use the writer.  With first-class global environments I can make a "private" environment which is the only one in which the writer is defined and not define it in the ordinary client environment.
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2015-05-27T04:19:16Z nyef: beach: An example of something that you wanted for another reason turning out to have broader and more immediately useful implications?
2015-05-27T04:19:30Z beach: Right.
2015-05-27T04:20:54Z nyef: It would not surprise me if that turned out to be fairly common in fundamental bootstrapping work.
2015-05-27T04:21:28Z beach: What is common?
2015-05-27T04:21:39Z beach: Inventing a thing that turns out to be useful for something else?
2015-05-27T04:21:55Z nyef: Coming up with something that drastically simplifies the process.
2015-05-27T04:22:35Z beach: I have actually seen very little documented about bootstrapping.
2015-05-27T04:22:56Z nyef: Mmm. Probably because it's largely black magic.
2015-05-27T04:23:03Z nyef: At least, for Lisp it is.
2015-05-27T04:23:14Z beach: Yes.
2015-05-27T04:23:23Z beach: And probably because in most cases (with simple languages like C) it is trivial.
2015-05-27T04:23:38Z nyef: For most "static" languages, it's described in a chapter of the Dragon book... that, too.
2015-05-27T04:24:46Z nyef: With Forth, it's a well-established family of techniques, including cross-compilers and compilers that can't build a full system but can produce a stripped-down system that runs a single application.
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2015-05-27T04:26:02Z beach: It would be fun to understand in which way Common Lisp is different from Forth with respect to bootstrapping.
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2015-05-27T04:28:11Z nyef: With Lisp... AIUI, the original established technique for building a system was to write the core part in some other language, such as assembler, and then maybe load in an initialization file to define the rest of the system, and the second established technique involved using the existing compiler to recompile whatever part of the system and then use something like SBCL's genesis to bind several native-compiled FASLs into one embry
2015-05-27T04:28:11Z nyef: onic image.
2015-05-27T04:29:11Z nyef: Having a specific cross-compiler with a slightly different output format, that could be used WHATEVER the host implementation is very much a recent concept in the Lisp world.
2015-05-27T04:29:20Z beach: You are saying those two techniques are not used together?
2015-05-27T04:29:42Z nyef: They certainly can be, but it's not required.
2015-05-27T04:30:06Z nyef: SBCL, for example, doesn't really have a "core piece" that isn't produced as output from the cross-compiler.
2015-05-27T04:30:16Z beach: A cross compiler is fairly straightforward to write.
2015-05-27T04:30:31Z beach: The problem is the "genesis".
2015-05-27T04:30:47Z nyef: Same with the T scheme implementation, for that matter. The non-compiler-produced-bits are all about signal handling and getting the memory image loaded in the first place.
2015-05-27T04:30:48Z beach: What I call a "viable image" in SICL documentation.
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2015-05-27T04:31:09Z beach: Right.
2015-05-27T04:31:22Z nyef: Mmm. So much of the machinery needs to already be set up and running before you can properly parse the top-level forms from the output of COMPILE-FILE.
2015-05-27T04:31:41Z beach: Exactly.
2015-05-27T04:32:36Z beach: And it is also interesting to read the article by Xof in which he writes something like "this part of SBCL bootstrapping is brittle"
2015-05-27T04:32:50Z nyef: One of the things I did last week with my Forth system was arrange that the cross-compiler can search the target system's dictionary (symbol table) while it is in the format expected by the target system.
2015-05-27T04:34:04Z beach: Interesting.  When I create an "extrinsic environment" in the host, I import all host definitions to begin with.  I wonder whether that is a similar idea.
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2015-05-27T04:37:06Z nyef: More-or-less, I have any top-level forms processed directly by the host, along with any use of load-time-value. These forms can only reference the target environment by explicitly taking a reference to something, otherwise they refer to the host environment.
2015-05-27T04:37:40Z nyef: So if they call a function, say +, it is the host function, but if they take a reference, such as by #'+, they get the target function.
2015-05-27T04:37:58Z beach: I see.
2015-05-27T04:38:21Z Zhivago: That sounds ... fragile?
2015-05-27T04:38:44Z nyef: And then because there's no type information on data, I have separate functions to deal with addresses (which get biased by the offset of the memory image being built) and data (which don't get biased).
2015-05-27T04:39:39Z nyef: Zhivago: There's a bit of a philosophy of having things more-or-less work, but if you start trying to get too clever then you really need to know what you're doing.
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2015-05-27T04:40:51Z nyef: For example, any macro (IMMEDIATE word) that gets used during metacompilation has to be defined in the context of the metacompiler (cross-compiler). By the time the actual target system is being compiled, it's far too late.
2015-05-27T04:42:05Z Zhivago: I wonder if something like (function x) vs. (target-function x) might be easier, in lisp terms, at least.
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2015-05-27T05:37:08Z Xof: I think there are multiple competing goals
2015-05-27T05:37:44Z Xof: one important goal is not to have two almost-identical copies of code, one for the cross-compiler and one for the target
2015-05-27T05:38:01Z Xof: another is for the code to be readable
2015-05-27T05:38:37Z Xof: in some sense all of these systems are gigantic puns.  It's sort-of OK if the reaction is: "that makes sense.  Wait, that makes no sense.  Oh, OK, that does make sense after all"
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2015-05-27T05:48:16Z beach: Yeah, makes sense. :)
2015-05-27T05:50:31Z beach: For example, I this form is directly executed in SICL: (defclass standard-class (...) (...))
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2015-05-27T07:05:28Z flip214: directly rewriting http://strangelyconsistent.org/blog/send-more-money-in-perl6 in Lisp runs in 0.75 secs for me...
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2015-05-27T07:06:26Z flip214: http://paste.lisp.org/display/148705
2015-05-27T07:08:14Z Bike: set-difference is pretty slow
2015-05-27T07:08:46Z flip214: Bike: never mind, even that way it's as fast as the fastest reported version in haskell or perl...
2015-05-27T07:09:06Z flip214: that's just a 1:1 transliteration
2015-05-27T07:09:18Z Bike: i can tell, it looks unnatural
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2015-05-27T07:09:57Z Bike: also kind of eulery, in that there's probably a way to enumerate all solutions in constant time
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2015-05-27T07:11:50Z flip214: Bike: well, that thing *is* constant time... it depends on no external factors (apart from room temperature, when the CPU runs too hot and gets throttled down etc. ;)
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2015-05-27T07:17:18Z tuturto: flip214: how fast was perl or haskell implementation on your machine?
2015-05-27T07:17:36Z flip214: tuturto: I didn't test.
2015-05-27T07:18:27Z tuturto: because kinda can't compare then
2015-05-27T07:18:43Z tuturto: granted, I doubt that perl one would suddenly be lightning fast ;)
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2015-05-27T07:23:52Z kephra: flip214, I wonder if its possible to solve this riddle smarter, e.g. in Maxima
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2015-05-27T07:25:47Z tuturto: or in miniKanren
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2015-05-27T07:26:20Z kephra: e.g. M must be 1, O != 0, ... there are lots of things a human can deduct instant to reduce search space
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2015-05-27T07:27:20Z Bike: yeah, cuts in half if you just use a bunch of = instead of set-difference.
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2015-05-27T07:38:57Z Bike: hm, but rewriting with alexandria:map-permutations makes it look like real code, and it's still a bit faster than the dolist set-difference
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2015-05-27T07:45:04Z flip214: Bike: would you please paste both versions? thanks.
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2015-05-27T07:49:19Z Bike: annotated
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2015-05-27T08:00:13Z elderK: Heya guys.
2015-05-27T08:00:18Z elderK: Just home from work.
2015-05-27T08:00:32Z elderK: Am wondering how most people do binary IO and deal with buffers and the like?
2015-05-27T08:00:43Z elderK: I've seen static-vectors, CFFI and the like.
2015-05-27T08:00:48Z elderK: Gray streams.
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2015-05-27T08:08:00Z pjb: find ~/quicklisp -name \*.lisp -exec grep -nHi -e '-byte' {} \; # should give some hints.
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2015-05-27T08:15:45Z antoszka: I'd say + instead of {} \; would be much faster here
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2015-05-27T08:23:55Z jackdaniel: hm, how read-delimited-list should treat newline? as end-of-file?
2015-05-27T08:25:08Z pjb: jackdaniel: as whitespace.  cf. chapter 2.
2015-05-27T08:25:55Z pjb: specifically 2.1.4 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_ad.htm
2015-05-27T08:25:58Z jackdaniel: hm, then slime has bug
2015-05-27T08:26:14Z pjb: there are some side effects from slime.
2015-05-27T08:26:19Z jackdaniel: it only preserves input, if there is opening #\(
2015-05-27T08:26:33Z jackdaniel: if not, then it ends it, no matter what current readtable is set to
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2015-05-27T08:27:06Z pjb: wfm
2015-05-27T08:27:21Z jackdaniel: wfm?
2015-05-27T08:27:24Z jackdaniel: wait for me?
2015-05-27T08:27:28Z pjb: works for me.
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2015-05-27T08:28:16Z jackdaniel: works for me like it's good for me, or it doesn't end input for you if you have binded ie #\[ and #\] ?
2015-05-27T08:28:31Z pjb: Put a space before ]
2015-05-27T08:28:49Z pjb: Again read 2.1.4 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_ad.htm
2015-05-27T08:29:06Z pjb: notice:    ]          constituent*
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2015-05-27T08:30:56Z jackdaniel: no, problem is that if I break line (with [return]) *before* putting closing "]" (in slime), and there is no "(" at start, then it will signal condition of type eof
2015-05-27T08:31:45Z pjb: There shouldn't be a #\( or #\[ at the start, when you call read-delimited-list.
2015-05-27T08:31:47Z pjb: clhs read-delimited-list
2015-05-27T08:31:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_del.htm
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2015-05-27T08:32:41Z jackdaniel: yes, #\[ is set as macro-character therefore it's not in a stream anymore
2015-05-27T08:34:12Z pjb: (with-input-from-string (in "a b c} d } e") (read-delimited-list #\} in)) --> (a b c} d) ; wfm
2015-05-27T08:35:00Z pjb: jackdaniel: did you notice:    ]          constituent*   ?
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2015-05-27T08:36:29Z jackdaniel: I'm not sure if you noticed, that I mentioned slime and newline tokens - http://paste.lisp.org/display/148723
2015-05-27T08:36:39Z jackdaniel: s/tokens//
2015-05-27T08:37:05Z jackdaniel: there is commented repl excerpt
2015-05-27T08:37:07Z jackdaniel: at bottom
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2015-05-27T08:38:54Z pjb: set-macro-character doesn't change the syntax of the character.
2015-05-27T08:41:20Z jackdaniel: I'm afraid either of us don't understand the other one. Unfortunately I've got to go in a few minutes, so can't continue trying to explain (unsuccesfully - probably due to my bad english) what my problem is
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2015-05-27T08:44:11Z pjb: jackdaniel: I don't have a defreadtable, so you will have to debug it yourself.   Use set-syntax-from-char to change the syntax of a character.
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2015-05-27T09:29:16Z jackdaniel: hm, defreadtable is from package named-readtables. Problem I have is strictrly related to slime, which passes string to underlaying implementation after hitting [enter] in repl, unless there is non-matched opening #\(. Read from file, or string works like a charm.
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2015-05-27T09:34:38Z kami: Hello #lisp
2015-05-27T09:34:49Z pjb: jackdaniel: As I said originally, slime imposes some restrictions.  In short: it's not a bug, it's a feature.
2015-05-27T09:35:11Z pjb: You can insert newlines with C-j in the REPL, before sending a full sexp with RET
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2015-05-27T09:37:28Z pjb: jackdaniel: notice however that READ works correctly in the REPL, so if you type: (eval (read)) RET #{ my-syntax (list [1 2 3] RET  [4 2 3] RET  )} RET ; everything will work fine.
2015-05-27T09:37:29Z pjb:  
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2015-05-27T09:40:14Z jackdaniel: that's correct
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2015-05-27T09:40:31Z pjb: jackdaniel: therefore if you use your own REPL, you'll solve the "problem":  (com.informatimago.common-lisp.interactive.interactive:repl)
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2015-05-27T09:41:16Z jackdaniel: it's not a problem, just got confused with this slime `feature`
2015-05-27T09:41:39Z jackdaniel: tought I do something wrong when using reader macros
2015-05-27T09:41:50Z pjb: jackdaniel: there are other places, where one would expect a more "terminal-like" behavior of the slime-repl.
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2015-05-27T09:42:25Z pjb: For some programs, I had to ffi emacs to do terminal-like stuff in the slime-repl from CL.
2015-05-27T09:42:46Z pjb: (well, more rpi than ffi, calling emacs from CL).
2015-05-27T09:44:47Z jackdaniel: anyway idea is to add extension to named-readtables, so one can define syntax and use it with #{ lambda-list-or-symbol foreign-syntax-forms* }
2015-05-27T09:45:56Z pjb: That part seems to work ok.
2015-05-27T09:46:29Z jackdaniel: yes, it works :)
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2015-05-27T11:25:11Z Cymew: Considering parenscript can produce js from CL, have anyone created something producing perl? I could use such a beast if someone needs a project...
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2015-05-27T11:27:29Z dlowe: is there a list of required fields for asdf 3?
2015-05-27T11:27:58Z Shinmera: dlowe: none?
2015-05-27T11:28:09Z flip214: Cymew: perl6 can embed many foreign languages. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8056404/is-it-possible-to-implement-lisp-language-in-perl-6 talks about embedding scheme in perl6, for example.
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2015-05-27T11:28:25Z Shinmera: dlowe: Required for what task?
2015-05-27T11:28:38Z dlowe: https://twitter.com/quicklisp/status/603199680265199616
2015-05-27T11:28:43Z flip214: Cymew: ah, here:  A metacircular Lisp in Perl 6
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2015-05-27T11:28:47Z flip214: https://github.com/masak/ipso
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2015-05-27T11:29:16Z Shinmera: dlowe: What's a quicklisp thing, not ASDF.
2015-05-27T11:29:45Z Shinmera: dlowe: See http://blog.quicklisp.org/2015/01/getting-library-into-quicklisp.html
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2015-05-27T11:31:12Z Shinmera: *That
2015-05-27T11:31:31Z dlowe: ah, right. Thanks.
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2015-05-27T11:31:57Z flip214: hmmm, that doesn't have that much yet.
2015-05-27T11:34:54Z Shinmera gets cracking on adding the metadata to modularize and qtools
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2015-05-27T11:44:08Z |3b|: does asdf allow multiple :author fields?
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2015-05-27T11:46:12Z Shinmera: You could try doing :author '(a b), but I'd rather do :author "a, b" if anything.
2015-05-27T11:46:20Z Shinmera: There's also the :maintainer field, if that's what you're looking for.
2015-05-27T11:46:52Z |3b|: yeah, maintainer would be OK (though some projects probably hame more than one of those too)
2015-05-27T11:47:26Z Shinmera: ASDF itself accepts putting a list in there as in :author ("a" "b"), but some software might expect it to be a string.
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2015-05-27T11:47:50Z Cymew: flip214: Sad thing is I might be expected to produce some perl, and I write in CL...
2015-05-27T11:50:50Z Xach: Several projects already use lists for :author
2015-05-27T11:51:02Z Xach: Cymew: I've used lisp to generate perl code and data.
2015-05-27T11:52:10Z Cymew: Xach: Anything you have published, and I missed?
2015-05-27T11:53:56Z dim: Cymew: see http://norvig.com/ltd/doc/ltd.html
2015-05-27T11:54:08Z Xach: Cymew: nope. just one-off stuff.
2015-05-27T11:54:27Z Shinmera: Xach: Nice. Also, just fixed my two projects to conform to the mandatory fields thing.
2015-05-27T11:55:42Z Xach: cool
2015-05-27T11:55:47Z Xach: i look forward to today's report
2015-05-27T11:55:49Z Shinmera: Xach: Though since the list of failures is so huge and there's several projects in there that seem quite old and potentially unmaintained, what are your plans for fixing those up?
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2015-05-27T11:56:07Z dim: Xach: you had a newsgroup archive link from someone producing C data and code from lisp with the pretty printer, too, that I'm not finding again just now?
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2015-05-27T11:58:09Z Xach: Shinmera: Not sure. Maybe just remove 'em.
2015-05-27T11:58:38Z Xach: dim: http://xach.com/rpw3/articles/search?q=c+pretty+print
2015-05-27T11:58:43Z dlowe: abandoned libraries that are dependencies of popular libraries are a problem there
2015-05-27T11:58:58Z dim: Xach: thanks
2015-05-27T11:59:05Z Xach: dim: that's not it, though, hmm
2015-05-27T11:59:14Z Xach: dim: let me try something else
2015-05-27T11:59:25Z dim: yeah but that shows where I should be looking for it ;-)
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2015-05-27T12:03:09Z Xach: dim: i can't find the specific ones I remember, sorry.
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2015-05-27T12:03:22Z Xach: dim: it was fairly pretty variable initialization
2015-05-27T12:03:32Z Xach: dim: you could also always email rpw, he is quite responsive
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2015-05-27T12:03:51Z dim: well it was just a good example to give to Cymew
2015-05-27T12:04:12Z Shinmera: dlowe: Plus, abandoned doesn't mean broken.
2015-05-27T12:04:14Z dim: I have read the XJ papers on the pretty printer and I think I'm good to go myself, when I have some time to invest into my compiler that's sleeping now
2015-05-27T12:04:49Z Shinmera: Still, there might have to be either exceptions, or quite a lot of forks to add the fields.
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2015-05-27T12:05:53Z Xach: the nature of "quite a lot" will probably determine the future course
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2015-05-27T12:06:10Z Shinmera: Right.
2015-05-27T12:08:49Z dim: AHAH, just when I was about to quit searching
2015-05-27T12:08:50Z dim: http://xach.com/rpw3/articles/mbudnVpUvZKbC8XVnZ2dnUVZ_vudnZ2d%40speakeasy.net.html
2015-05-27T12:08:57Z Xach: This is partly an experiment to see if anyone cares, and if they care, is it enough to fix what they can?
2015-05-27T12:09:28Z Xach: I've had some people push back and say they don't want to add data to test or internal systems, so that's good to know.
2015-05-27T12:09:38Z Xach: dim: yes!
2015-05-27T12:09:50Z dim: http://xach.com/rpw3/articles/F-udnZ3s2r7vWELbnZ2dnUVZ_jydnZ2d%40speakeasy.net.html
2015-05-27T12:10:02Z dim: the second one is the complete one with the helper function
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2015-05-27T12:10:08Z Shinmera: Right, test systems could be an "exception", but detecting them is a problem since just looking for "test" in the system name won't be good enough.
2015-05-27T12:10:25Z dim: Cymew: read those links, in particular http://xach.com/rpw3/articles/F-udnZ3s2r7vWELbnZ2dnUVZ_jydnZ2d%40speakeasy.net.html to help you see how to write perl code and data from lisp quite easily
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2015-05-27T12:10:43Z Shinmera: Still, I agree with the idea of mandatory metadata on "main" systems, however that term could be defined.
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2015-05-27T12:11:39Z dim: « p.s. And, no, I wasn't being paid to code Lisp per se; I was being paid to get a piece of work done [a Linux kernel driver, if you must know], and using Lisp to do parts of it was just the fastest, simplest, least error-prone way I knew. ;-} ;-} »
2015-05-27T12:11:46Z dim: I'm quite fond of that p.s. ;-)
2015-05-27T12:12:28Z Xach: those posts are what prompted me to emit perl code with lisp
2015-05-27T12:12:43Z Xach: i had some lisp code to read a data format specification, and used that to emit a parser in perl
2015-05-27T12:12:50Z Shinmera: I've been pondering doing that for my Eiffel class, but it wasn't worth the effort.
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2015-05-27T12:20:24Z flip214: Cymew: https://metacpan.org/pod/release/TOKUHIROM/nana-0.07/lib/Nana/Translator/Perl.pm AST to Perl
2015-05-27T12:23:22Z jackdaniel:  /win 14
2015-05-27T12:26:04Z splittist: jackdaniel: horseracing tip?
2015-05-27T12:26:48Z jackdaniel: splittist: I'm not familiar with this idiom :p
2015-05-27T12:26:54Z jackdaniel: what does it mean?
2015-05-27T12:27:05Z jackdaniel: I guess it's related to typos
2015-05-27T12:28:08Z splittist: jackdaniel: sorry, in a silly mood. You said "/win 14", which I took to be a tip that horse number 14 would win.
2015-05-27T12:28:33Z jackdaniel: aa, ok :p
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2015-05-27T12:29:44Z jackdaniel: I often mispell commands, or put them in wrong tiles - one of rare cons of keyboard-driven wm
2015-05-27T12:29:54Z jackdaniel: the latter one I mean
2015-05-27T12:30:04Z jackdaniel: the first is one of various cons of mine
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2015-05-27T12:43:07Z p_l: anyone has heard anything regarding Peter Paine's symbolics hardware recently?
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2015-05-27T12:56:36Z Cymew: flip214: Thanks!
2015-05-27T12:56:40Z Cymew: Xach: Thanks!
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2015-05-27T12:56:59Z Cymew: Interesting links all. I should have guessed that Rob had done something like that.
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2015-05-27T14:14:56Z matthavard: If I do this: https://gist.github.com/5772bba4b71ae511f74e I get a 2d array.  But it appears if I modify *test-matrix* with something like `(setf (aref *test-matrix* 0 0) 0)`, I cannot reset *test-matrix* by simply re-doing what you see in the gist.  *test-matrix* still has a 0 at 0 0 even though the intial-contents argument denotes a 1 at that location
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2015-05-27T14:16:07Z splittist: clhs defvar
2015-05-27T14:16:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpar.htm
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2015-05-27T14:16:37Z matthavard: ah so I should use defparameter.  Thanks splittist
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2015-05-27T14:17:16Z splittist: No worries! (That was easy (: )
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2015-05-27T14:18:16Z matthavard: Obligatory: https://xkcd.com/541/
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2015-05-27T14:20:29Z patrickwonders: I've been having trouble with quicklisp lately.  Every time I try to fetch a new package, I get "Error: #<QL-HTTP::END-OF-DATA ...>".  Is this a known thing?
2015-05-27T14:20:55Z patrickwonders: (CCL 1.10 or trunk on MacOSX)
2015-05-27T14:22:40Z loke_: patrickwonders: Clear the cache
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2015-05-27T14:25:33Z patrickwonders: loke_: Common Lisp cache didn't help, nor ~/quicklisp/cache/... Is there somewhere else?
2015-05-27T14:26:00Z loke_: patrickwonders: Isn't there a DELETE-AND-RETRY restart available in QL when you get that error?
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2015-05-27T14:27:24Z patrickwonders: loke_: Nope. Just Abort, Retry, Slime-top level, reset thread, kill thread.
2015-05-27T14:27:41Z loke_: There is a cleanup command that Xachusually recvommend
2015-05-27T14:27:49Z loke_: If only I could remember which one it is
2015-05-27T14:27:56Z loke_: could it be ql-dist:clean?
2015-05-27T14:28:34Z loke_: Hmm, that one seems to delete old archives, so that isn't it
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2015-05-27T14:30:20Z patrickwonders: When I try to fetch the URL quicklisp is trying to pull, I get "Access Denied"
2015-05-27T14:30:32Z loke_: huh?
2015-05-27T14:30:34Z loke_: which url is that?
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2015-05-27T14:33:25Z patrickwonders: I'm using IRC on my phone cuz reasons so, modulo typing: http://beta.quicklisp.org/archive/sha3/2014-01-03/sha3-20140113-git.tgz
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2015-05-27T14:34:15Z Grisha: hello everyone
2015-05-27T14:35:15Z Grisha: I would like to generate say matlab/python/latex code from simple s-expression - is there a good explanation how to do it?
2015-05-27T14:35:16Z mood: I don't know if it's a typo, but the 01-03 should be 01-13
2015-05-27T14:35:19Z mood: Then you get a file
2015-05-27T14:35:50Z patrickwonders: Yes, that was a typo...
2015-05-27T14:35:58Z Zhivago: Grisha: By ... writing a compiler?
2015-05-27T14:36:08Z Grisha: Zhivago, a tiny one ;-)
2015-05-27T14:36:15Z Grisha: yes
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2015-05-27T14:36:20Z Zhivago: Well, there you have it.
2015-05-27T14:37:30Z patrickwonders: Hmm. You're right, when I copy-pasted to my browser I got an extra byte in my URL.  Still, not sure why QL cannot get it then.
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2015-05-27T14:37:36Z loke_: patrickwonders: I seem to be getting 403's on everything
2015-05-27T14:37:39Z Grisha: i just need to be able to convert a small subset of arithmetic expressions in lisp to infix notation, putting parentheses as needed
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2015-05-27T14:38:57Z loke_: patrickwonders: Have you done a QL:UPGRADE-CLIENT ?
2015-05-27T14:39:02Z loke_: there was an update not long ago
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2015-05-27T14:39:27Z patrickwonders: loke_: upgrade client doesn't help nor re-installing.
2015-05-27T14:39:28Z loke_: I mean QL:UPDATE-CLIENT, followed by possibly QL:UPDATE-ALL-DISTS
2015-05-27T14:39:55Z loke_: I have no problems installing sha3
2015-05-27T14:41:13Z loke_: I don't think you've upgraded
2015-05-27T14:41:18Z patrickwonders: loke_: The call stack says it got "200" for a status code.
2015-05-27T14:41:29Z loke_: Your client tries to download #http://beta.quicklisp.org/archive/sha3/2014-01-03/sha3-20140113-git.tgz
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2015-05-27T14:41:43Z loke_: while mine tries to download #http://beta.quicklisp.org/archive/sha3/2014-01-13/sha3-20140113-git.tgz
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2015-05-27T14:42:17Z mood: loke_: He just said that was a typo though
2015-05-27T14:42:20Z loke_: ah
2015-05-27T14:42:29Z patrickwonders: I just downloaded the latest quicklisp.lisp and started from scratch... No, I copied the URL wrong to my phone and browser.
2015-05-27T14:42:44Z loke_: patrickwonders: DId it work after restarting from scratch?
2015-05-27T14:42:53Z patrickwonders: No
2015-05-27T14:43:03Z theos: loke both links are same?
2015-05-27T14:43:12Z mood: Are you behind a proxy or something?
2015-05-27T14:43:36Z mood: theos: One says "01-03" while the other says "01-13"
2015-05-27T14:43:47Z theos: oh
2015-05-27T14:43:53Z loke_: theos: I was about to suggest the same
2015-05-27T14:44:04Z loke_: patrickwonders: You might have a caching proxy with a corrupt cache
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2015-05-27T14:44:51Z patrickwonders: I might, but I never did before. Unless Comcast or EarthLink are futzing with me.
2015-05-27T14:44:54Z JordiGH: Is there a simple format recipe for displaying e.g. 1024 as 1 KiB and that squared as 1 MiB?
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2015-05-27T14:45:53Z patrickwonders: And curl pulls more than zero bytes.
2015-05-27T14:46:21Z loke_: JordiGH: sounds unlikely
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2015-05-27T14:46:32Z JordiGH: Okay, how about a complicated format recipe?
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2015-05-27T14:48:01Z loke_: JordiGH: I think you'll need to write a custom formatter for that
2015-05-27T14:48:14Z loke_: JordiGH: Because you'd need to do arithmetic, which you can't do with format.
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2015-05-27T14:51:17Z skrue: is there a way to do manual memory management in common lisp? are there any lisp variants with this feature?
2015-05-27T14:51:41Z patrickwonders: loke_: Hmm. Curl cannot pull the whole thing either.  "(18) transfer closed with 11623 bytes remaining to read" 3895 byes in file...
2015-05-27T14:51:56Z Shinmera: skrue: Anything that has CFFI will let you do it, essentially.
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2015-05-27T14:52:55Z d125q: Hi guys. Assume I have an alist where assoc pairs consist of element and "sublist level" at which that element Appears. For example, '((a . 1) (b . 2) (c . 2) (d . 3) (e . 1)) would correspond to '(a (b c (d)) e). My question is, given such an alist, is there an easy way to obtain the corresponding list?
2015-05-27T14:54:06Z pjb: skrue: it is trivial to perform manual memory management in CL.  But why would you want to do that?
2015-05-27T14:54:19Z oleo: d125q: from values to tree structure ?
2015-05-27T14:54:26Z oleo: d125q: how shall that happen ?
2015-05-27T14:54:50Z pjb: d125q: obviously no.
2015-05-27T14:54:57Z oleo: d125q: the only thing encoded in the alist is what corresponds to what .....
2015-05-27T14:55:12Z pjb: there's no indication of the order of the elements, and you've not specified what happens when there are duplicate elements.
2015-05-27T14:55:42Z d125q: pjb: I understand that the problem is a bit underspecified, but that's all the info I have. I feared as much.
2015-05-27T14:56:10Z skrue: pjb: better performance, or at least avoiding GC lags when desirable (like for certain types of games)
2015-05-27T14:56:26Z pjb: you can reconstruct A sexp from such an a-list, but there's no reason for the reconstructed sexp to be similar to the original one.
2015-05-27T14:56:31Z splittist: JordiGH: I think GLS wanted to have something like that built into format back in the day, and it was discussed again during the standardisation process. But nothing was agreed.
2015-05-27T14:56:36Z pjb: skrue: definitely.  It's trivial.
2015-05-27T14:56:55Z JordiGH: Who is GLS (pbuh)?
2015-05-27T14:56:59Z oleo: pjb: would it be possible for him to attach the tree-structure to his alist as a last element or so ?
2015-05-27T14:57:14Z pjb: oleo: change the problem all you want.
2015-05-27T14:57:25Z skrue: pjb: do you have any experience with it? is it extra cludgy and getting in the way so much that one migth as well switch to c++?
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2015-05-27T14:57:51Z oleo: pjb: no i meant, not an ordinary alist, but one which also captures the structure for the thing for which it is thought....
2015-05-27T14:57:52Z loke_: patrickwonders: You have a broken proxy somewhere?
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2015-05-27T14:58:23Z pjb: skrue: the principle is to write a pair of functions to allocate and deallocate objects, that you have previously created and keep in a pool.
2015-05-27T14:59:00Z loke_: patrickwonders: Lovely ISP you got there... I had one that did the same (although I don't think they cached, at least I never had incnsistencies). It was enough for me switch ISP's. Well, that and the fact that the old one's IPv6 was not very well implemented.
2015-05-27T14:59:05Z pjb: oleo: d125q's problem statement is an a-list of a specific form.  You may want to introduce a new problem.
2015-05-27T14:59:49Z oleo: pjb: and he can't capture the specific form, as another alist element ?
2015-05-27T14:59:50Z JordiGH: Oh, Guy L Steele.
2015-05-27T14:59:59Z splittist: JordiGH: yes, sorry.
2015-05-27T15:00:15Z oleo: apart from making it more complicated ofc......
2015-05-27T15:00:59Z pjb: oleo: he can do whatever he wants.  But the problem statement wasn't that.
2015-05-27T15:01:10Z oleo: ok
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2015-05-27T15:02:10Z patrickwonders: loke_: Ugh. Now, I scrogged it.  I have a new systems.txt and so now I can't even use packages I previously had that have been upgraded.
2015-05-27T15:02:54Z loke_: patrickwonders: Set up a VPN :-)
2015-05-27T15:03:24Z JordiGH: Are there any interactive lisp tutorials?
2015-05-27T15:03:26Z loke_: Or just set up your own proxy that you can tunner through
2015-05-27T15:03:30Z JordiGH: Something online?
2015-05-27T15:04:00Z patrickwonders: loke_: I could do that... Oof.
2015-05-27T15:04:03Z loke_: JordiGH: Who is learning?
2015-05-27T15:04:14Z JordiGH: Someone who says they want an interactive lisp tutorial.
2015-05-27T15:04:19Z loke_: patrickwonders: I've heard bad things about comcast.
2015-05-27T15:04:52Z patrickwonders: loke_: They suck, but I'm not sure I have better options.
2015-05-27T15:05:24Z JordiGH: Oh, there's this one: http://alarm.cti.depaul.edu/lisptutor/login
2015-05-27T15:05:26Z loke_: patrickwonders: You on fibre?
2015-05-27T15:05:56Z splittist: From August 1981: "Proposed: a new FORMAT directive ~U that prints floating-point numbers in exponential form, with the exponent a multiple of three, and also outputs a standard metric prefix such as ``kilo'' to match." (Not completely the same, but similar in principal; you can imagine the : and @ variants...)
2015-05-27T15:06:01Z patrickwonders: I can't rule out my network hardware either, but my network hardware/firmware  hasn't changed (intentionally).
2015-05-27T15:06:33Z patrickwonders: I'm not on fiber.  It is not to my neighborhood until late this year.
2015-05-27T15:07:38Z JordiGH: splittist: Ah, wow. That was proposed on my birthdate.
2015-05-27T15:07:53Z splittist: A year later, still GLS: "I forgot to mention that the @ flag should cause scaling by powers of 2↑10 instead of 10↑3:  (format () "~Ubits, ~:Ub, ~@Ubits, ~:@Ub" 65536 65536 65536 65536) => "65.536 kilobits, 65.536 Kb, 64.0 kilobits, 64.0 Kb""
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2015-05-27T15:08:53Z loke_: splittist: Neat.
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2015-05-27T15:20:38Z Xof: though not conformant with today's Kibi- etc prefixes
2015-05-27T15:20:51Z JordiGH: Yeah, those weren't proposed until 15 years later.
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2015-05-27T15:21:27Z Xof: so he wasn't prescient?
2015-05-27T15:21:43Z JordiGH: Not a prophet, despite my "(pbuh)" above.
2015-05-27T15:22:14Z loz: guys, quiz of the day - how to expand "." in cl? (get same output as pwd command)
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2015-05-27T15:22:46Z loke_: loz: *DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS*
2015-05-27T15:22:51Z Xof: multiple posisble answers.  *default-pathname-defaults* is one
2015-05-27T15:23:01Z Shinmera: uiop:getcwd if you mean the cwd.
2015-05-27T15:23:04Z Xof: (truename ".") is another
2015-05-27T15:23:20Z loz: Failed to find the TRUENAME of .: No such file or directory
2015-05-27T15:23:37Z loz: oh, its my repl problem)
2015-05-27T15:24:23Z loke_: TRUENAME on "." is unix-specific though
2015-05-27T15:24:46Z Xof: really?
2015-05-27T15:24:54Z loke_: Xof: Yes.
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2015-05-27T15:25:42Z loke_: Xof: It might not even work on Windows. As far as I know, there is no "real" . directory on Windows.
2015-05-27T15:25:48Z Xof: is (truename (make-pathname :directory '(:relative))) less unix-specific?
2015-05-27T15:26:19Z Xof: but (truename ".") doesn't actually look for the "." directory
2015-05-27T15:26:24Z loke_: Xof: Yes. But I'd expect that to return the same as (truename *default-pathname-defaults*)
2015-05-27T15:26:34Z Xof: it looks for the truename of the pathname named "."
2015-05-27T15:26:40Z Xof: which I would expect to be the same as the others
2015-05-27T15:26:51Z loz: Shinmera: your solution is better, it return _current_ directory, not one where lisp was started, thanks)
2015-05-27T15:26:55Z Xof: anyway, I don't know enough about pathnames to argue :-)
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2015-05-27T15:26:58Z loke_: Xof: No, because the concept of "." being the current direcftory is specific to unix
2015-05-27T15:27:39Z loz: loke_: how do you specify current directory in non-unix systems?
2015-05-27T15:27:42Z Xof: hm, OK, fair
2015-05-27T15:27:55Z Shinmera: loz: Also see uiop:chdir if you want to switch it.
2015-05-27T15:27:59Z loke_: One could argue that apart from Windows, pretty much every operating system that matters these days are based on Unix, so the chances of stumbling across a system where "." does not in fact point to the current directory is somewhat slim.
2015-05-27T15:28:40Z splittist: There is a lot of assuming Windows away that goes on. Windows, however, persists.
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2015-05-27T15:30:19Z loke_: splittist: Yes, but I'm also assuming that (truename ".")actually works on windows, even though I never tested it
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2015-05-27T15:32:28Z Xof: depends on the Lisp's pathname parser
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2015-05-27T15:39:07Z fe[nl]ix: Xof: AFAIK on Windows there's a separate CWD for each drive
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2015-05-27T15:39:43Z Xof: but there's also the notion of a current drive, isn't there?
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2015-05-27T15:54:20Z p_l: i think the separate cwd is a command.com artifact?
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2015-05-27T16:35:34Z fchurca: hi
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2015-05-27T16:37:07Z fchurca: Does anyone know if Patrick Krusenotto has any plans for keeping LispStick updated? I have tried contacting him at the address provided on the page, but he hasn't answered
2015-05-27T16:37:54Z quevan quit (Quit: a)
2015-05-27T16:38:42Z antoszka: I made a few updates for myself, but lost interest (not really using windows these days).
2015-05-27T16:39:04Z fchurca: I have just now tried leaving a comment on the page itself to try to contact him
2015-05-27T16:41:13Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2015-05-27T16:41:34Z fchurca: Also, is there any news on lispbox or similar distributions? Given the lack of news on this area, I have been thinking about rolling my own emacs + sbcl + quicklisp package, probably with git and other goodies
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2015-05-27T16:42:49Z Shinmera: I have something like that on my todo list
2015-05-27T16:42:58Z Shinmera: But it's gonna be a while before I get to it.
2015-05-27T16:42:58Z antoszka: Definitely should be pretty simple to take over the maintenance/improve the projekt.
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2015-05-27T16:43:54Z antoszka: Guess a few people would appreciate that :)
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2015-05-27T16:53:39Z fchurca: Shinmera: would you be interested in joining a GitHub repo in order to deduplicate efforts?
2015-05-27T16:54:33Z Shinmera: fchurca: I don't really mind having my efforts wasted, so I usually prefer just doing my thing and then seeing who got it done better.
2015-05-27T16:55:21Z fchurca: Ok
2015-05-27T16:55:36Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2015-05-27T16:56:01Z fchurca: Does anyone know if sbcl and emacs for windows run on wine for linux?
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2015-05-27T16:57:17Z scymtym: fchurca: sbcl does. no idea about emacs.
2015-05-27T16:57:29Z inf-gropeoid is now known as inf-groupoid
2015-05-27T16:57:52Z nyef: I don't know if SBCL does now, but I know that I was upset when I learned that it was SBCL that changed to enable it to do so, given that one of the things preventing it originally is/was a known bug in Wine.
2015-05-27T16:58:15Z antoszka: fchurca: I think it'd be better to just set up a VM. Wine probably would not give a good enough approximation.
2015-05-27T16:58:36Z antoszka: Especially with regards to paths, scripting and all that.
2015-05-27T16:59:30Z nyef: Here's another twisted possibility: Linux emacs, SLIME, SBCL/Win32 running under wine, all on the same machine.
2015-05-27T16:59:58Z fchurca: I do have a VM, but the use case would be to just check if it loads unhorribly enough. The lack of paths would actually be actually interesting, given that it would be to test a portable stack.
2015-05-27T17:01:09Z fchurca: nyef: I think that wouldn't be so twisted, as they would try to bind to :4005
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2015-05-27T19:37:51Z devon: CCL> (make-string "12")
2015-05-27T19:38:42Z Bike: "12" is not a number
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2015-05-27T20:01:58Z devon: No a string is not a number but the error message is funny.
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2015-05-27T20:07:57Z Xach: heh
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2015-05-27T20:08:09Z Xach: not what i'd expect
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2015-05-27T20:08:56Z leberecht: gimme!coffee
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2015-05-27T20:09:14Z Bike: ...oh, that's a bit weird, yeah.
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2015-05-27T20:17:35Z oGMo: is there an official communication channel for quicklisp? e.g. release notifications, tests, etc
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2015-05-27T20:19:18Z Xach: oGMo: the blog has most of it.
2015-05-27T20:19:23Z Xach: oGMo: the mailing list and twitter have some of it.
2015-05-27T20:19:45Z oGMo: Xach: ah, excellent
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2015-05-27T20:27:55Z Fare went in a frenzy to add meta-data to all his systems for the next quicklisp update
2015-05-27T20:28:17Z Fare also dropped support for asdf2 and sometimes asdf <3.1 in many of these systems.
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2015-05-27T20:29:51Z Fare: who's stuck on asdf 3.0? Looks like only clisp, and maybe allegro express (the update script fails for me and it comes with 3.0.2.3)
2015-05-27T20:30:22Z Fare: has clisp found a new maintainer?
2015-05-27T20:32:44Z attila_lendvai: Fare: what did you put in license? I also reject the whole idea and wonder what you did...
2015-05-27T20:33:20Z Xach: Reject the whole idea of what?
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2015-05-27T20:33:34Z Fare: attila: I usually dual-license bugroff and something more classical
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2015-05-27T20:33:49Z Fare: the things released while I was working at ITA is usually MIT-licensed.
2015-05-27T20:33:58Z attila_lendvai: Xach: copyright laws
2015-05-27T20:34:01Z Xach: ok
2015-05-27T20:34:08Z Fare: a few things are BSD licensed.
2015-05-27T20:34:53Z Fare: my single-threaded-ccl is LLGPL like ccl itself.
2015-05-27T20:35:31Z Fare: oh, I see that ASDF itself is missing the :license bit...
2015-05-27T20:36:36Z Fare: oh, it's using :licence
2015-05-27T20:36:59Z attila_lendvai: and what shall I put into :author for the dwim.hu stuff? it's usually a random subset of the 3 of us...
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2015-05-27T20:37:08Z Fare: Xach: do you expect all .asd files to have all these metadata fields? What about secondary systems foo/bar ?
2015-05-27T20:37:25Z ehu: Fare: can there be multiple Author's for a system?
2015-05-27T20:38:00Z Xach: Fare: I expect everything to have all three.
2015-05-27T20:38:02Z Fare: it's free-form. You can make it a #.(make-hash-table ...)
2015-05-27T20:38:19Z eudoxia: which raises the questions: what about package-inferred systems?
2015-05-27T20:38:22Z eudoxia: question*
2015-05-27T20:38:34Z Fare: although, probably a string or list of strings makes more sense.
2015-05-27T20:38:38Z attila_lendvai: oh how nice! we have subclass in place for all our systems where we can set the defaults... :)
2015-05-27T20:38:46Z Xach: attila_lendvai: easy as pie!
2015-05-27T20:39:24Z attila_lendvai: except that :cl-gpu uses it... I'll send a pull request there
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2015-05-27T20:40:15Z Fare: I expect to not have to add the metadata in secondary systems or in package-inferred-system's.
2015-05-27T20:40:24Z Fare: ehu: are you using package-inferred-system ?
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2015-05-27T20:40:54Z ehu: uhm. no.
2015-05-27T20:41:06Z Fare: oops, I meant eudoxia
2015-05-27T20:41:08Z ehu: I *think* I know what that is: it's a package per file?
2015-05-27T20:41:12Z Fare: yes
2015-05-27T20:41:30Z eudoxia: Fade: no but some projects seem to use it
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2015-05-27T20:42:08Z Fare: eudoxia, you prompted me to update lisp-invocation, and as I updated it, I started using package-inferred-system (as well as broke then fixed lispworks support).
2015-05-27T20:42:39Z eudoxia: yes
2015-05-27T20:42:47Z eudoxia: i've used lisp-invocation now to test a couple of libraries
2015-05-27T20:43:05Z Fare: eudoxia, have you seen projects beyond mine use it?
2015-05-27T20:43:05Z eudoxia: so thanks for that
2015-05-27T20:43:43Z eudoxia: Fare: not to the best of my knowledge. i ran into it on quickdocs.org by accident and though "oh, this is just like what i wrote. i should get this into a separate project"
2015-05-27T20:43:47Z Fare runs grep -i package-inferred-system ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/**/*.asd and finds that bytecurry.asdf-ext uses it, that I didn't write
2015-05-27T20:44:08Z eudoxia: oh, you meant p-i-s not lisp-invocation
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2015-05-27T20:51:38Z Fare: cool that you're using lisp-invocation
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2015-05-27T20:57:11Z eudoxia: don't thank me, just helping, you know, consolidation
2015-05-27T20:57:51Z Fare: :-)
2015-05-27T20:58:00Z Fare: that's worthy of thanks already.
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2015-05-27T21:13:17Z PuercoPop: attila_lendvai: I just put <3 and a link to copyheart.org as a midly trollish way to reject licensing. Although we don't live in a 'post-copyright' world
2015-05-27T21:13:51Z attila_lendvai: PuercoPop: heh, thanks for the suggestion! :)
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2015-05-27T21:15:25Z attila_lendvai: as of post-copyright: I *am* living those ethics, but indeed the most powerful people don't. does that count as "we are not living in a post-copyright world"? not sure, but I guess that's just semantics...
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2015-05-27T21:19:28Z attila_lendvai: Fare: so, asdf understands both :licence and :license?
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2015-05-27T21:29:29Z Fare: attila_lendvai, aye aye.
2015-05-27T21:30:30Z Fare: defclass system has both initargs on its slot licence.
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2015-05-27T21:31:46Z Fare: lambda-reader has a copyheart and MIT license. :-/
2015-05-27T21:32:05Z Fare: I used to bugroff fare-matcher, until someone demanded BSD compatibility, so I dual-licensed it.
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2015-05-27T21:34:14Z drmeister: Can anyone help out a noob and tell me how to get the cl-conspack system with quicklisp?
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2015-05-27T21:34:29Z drmeister: (ql:quickload "cl-conspack") doesn't do the job.
2015-05-27T21:35:31Z drmeister:  System "cl-conspack" not found
2015-05-27T21:35:37Z drmeister: And I'm going into a tunnel
2015-05-27T21:35:57Z Xach: drmeister: it seems like you might not have the latest quicklisp dist
2015-05-27T21:36:13Z Xach: drmeister: an update via (ql:update-dist "quicklisp") might help
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2015-05-27T21:38:02Z drmeister: Grrrrr
2015-05-27T21:39:21Z drmeister: Xach: Thank you - I'm doing this with SBCL - I'll grab the latest stuff and wipe out the old stuff.
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2015-05-27T21:44:33Z drmeister: That helped.  Then it complains that I need ASDF >= 2.32 to load this system.   I guess my SBCL ASDF is old.
2015-05-27T21:44:49Z drmeister: I'll try it with clasp.  I have a newer ASDF
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2015-05-27T21:44:51Z Fare: drmeister, which sbcl do you have? latest sbcl has asdf 3.1.3
2015-05-27T21:45:16Z Fare: 2.32 is a slightly weird version to depend on.
2015-05-27T21:45:24Z Fare: yay early adopters.
2015-05-27T21:46:12Z Fare: drmeister, btw, can you check the clasp support in the latest asdf? I'd be nice if the first release to claim clasp support actually worked on clasp
2015-05-27T21:46:14Z drmeister: Ok, I'll upgrade sbcl.   I'm working on Clasp and I rely on it more and more.  I haven't used SBCL in a long time.
2015-05-27T21:46:36Z drmeister: Fare: Sure.
2015-05-27T21:46:49Z drmeister: Upgrading software - yay, fun!
2015-05-27T21:47:08Z drmeister is being facetious - he understands the importance of proper testing.
2015-05-27T21:47:19Z Fare: also, if clasp works on the command line, running the asdf test suite would be great. You may have to update the lisp-invocation library.
2015-05-27T21:47:58Z drmeister: Fare: I'm kind of focused on other things at the moment.  Must get my chemistry code up and running ASAP.  I have deadlines.
2015-05-27T21:48:13Z Fare: OK. Nothing urgent.
2015-05-27T21:48:22Z Fare: Looking forward to your speech at LispNYC.
2015-05-27T21:48:25Z drmeister: But I appreciate the heads-up.
2015-05-27T21:48:34Z drmeister: I'll be talking in Boston in a few weeks.
2015-05-27T21:48:42Z Fare: I won't be in Boston.
2015-05-27T21:49:10Z drmeister: Understood - that's more for general consumption for anyone who is in Boston.
2015-05-27T21:49:46Z drmeister: But yes, I'm looking forward to giving the talk at LispNYC
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2015-05-27T21:50:45Z Fare: is the Boston talk open to the public?
2015-05-27T21:51:16Z Xach: Fare: yes.
2015-05-27T21:51:21Z Fare: excellent!
2015-05-27T21:51:30Z drmeister: Xach: Do you know about it already?
2015-05-27T21:52:25Z Fare: drmeister, were there licensing issues with MPS, or does it have a free software license?
2015-05-27T21:52:58Z drmeister: Fare: I didn't sign anything.  I guess it's a free software license.
2015-05-27T21:53:07Z drmeister: I don't guess.  It is a free software license.
2015-05-27T21:53:51Z Fare: excellent.
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2015-05-27T21:54:32Z Fare: sionescu was wondering whether your hacks to audit C++ code to use the MPS GC could be used for other programming language implementations...
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2015-05-27T21:55:09Z Xach: drmeister: yes. i have blogged and tweeted and posted all about it
2015-05-27T21:55:37Z Xach is very sad to learn that drmeister doesn't follow him on twitter, reddit, or planet lisp :~(
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2015-05-27T21:56:10Z drmeister: Fare: I think the static analyzer could be adapted to other C++ code - absolutely.  I didn't write it with that in mind but with a week or so of work I could generalize it.
2015-05-27T21:56:28Z drmeister: Xach: I haven't called my mom in a week - I'm running flat out with several deadlines.
2015-05-27T21:57:18Z drmeister: But you raise a good point. I'll put your blog on my shortcuts bar.
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2015-05-27T22:00:36Z Fare follows too many people on twitter and doesn't check it often.
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2015-05-27T22:02:36Z drmeister: Xach: Awesome!  Thank you!
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2015-05-27T23:56:50Z drmeister: oGMo: Are you online?
2015-05-27T23:57:13Z drmeister: I had some questions about the systems that cl-conspack depends on.
2015-05-27T23:57:57Z drmeister: Namely: Trivial-UTF-8  - how much support is required?   Clasp doesn't have unicode support yet.
2015-05-27T23:58:47Z drmeister: Does anyone know Luis Oliveira - author of trivial-garbage?  Does he hang out here?
2015-05-28T00:00:22Z attila_lendvai: luis: you've been summoned
2015-05-28T00:01:08Z Xach: drmeister: trivial-utf-8 expects (code-char <some unicode code point integer>) to return the unicode character.
2015-05-28T00:01:30Z Xach: drmeister: i suspect if you only use a limited range you might be fine, but i don't know for sure
2015-05-28T00:02:15Z drmeister: Xach: What does that mean exactly?   (code-char <unicode code point integer>) --> unicode character?
2015-05-28T00:02:37Z drmeister: A code point integer is an integer that represents a character - correct?   Isn't that the same as a unicode character?
2015-05-28T00:02:47Z drmeister needs to learn unicode.
2015-05-28T00:03:02Z Bike: a code point integer is a lisp integer. code-char returns a lisp character.
2015-05-28T00:03:22Z White_Flame: code points and characters are not 1-to-1 related
2015-05-28T00:03:25Z drmeister gently runs his fingers over his worn ASCII tables above his desk.
2015-05-28T00:03:28Z White_Flame: many/most are, but it's not 100%
2015-05-28T00:03:41Z White_Flame: there are code points intended to combine with neighbors to create a character
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2015-05-28T00:03:57Z White_Flame: and there's whitespace, newlines, ltr or rtl directional codes, etc
2015-05-28T00:04:16Z Bike: point is if i do (write (code-char 479)) i should see ǟ
2015-05-28T00:04:34Z Xach: drmeister: it helps to keep firmly in mind the differences between a character, a character set, and an encoding
2015-05-28T00:05:13Z Xach wishes his xterm 7x14 font showed something other than blank space for Bike's point
2015-05-28T00:05:16Z drmeister pulls his worn ASCII tables from above his desk and clutches them to his chest.
2015-05-28T00:05:26Z drmeister: Ha!
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2015-05-28T00:07:28Z drmeister: I'm wondering how much work do I need to do to get cl-conspack working in clasp. I can quickload closer-mop, alexandria, ieee-floats, trivial-utf-8 but fast-io and trivial-garbage produce errors.
2015-05-28T00:07:34Z drmeister: (sigh)
2015-05-28T00:08:18Z drmeister: trivial-utf-8 will certainly have problems because I only have 8-byte character strings at the moment.
2015-05-28T00:08:47Z drmeister: However, my characters are 32-bit immediate values as of a week ago so I'm ready to implement wider strings.
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2015-05-28T00:09:26Z Xach: 8 byte!
2015-05-28T00:09:40Z drmeister: Did I say 8-byte.  I meant two nibbles.
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2015-05-28T00:12:20Z Xach: i suspect you'll run into that kind of thing for any software that has to provide some bit of code for every supported implementation
2015-05-28T00:13:01Z drmeister: Yeah,  I just sent an email to luis.
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2015-05-28T00:14:26Z drmeister: I plan to get by on clasp's close similarity to ECL and my natural charm.
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2015-05-28T00:16:49Z kristof: drmeister: Trying to get trivial-garbage support?
2015-05-28T00:17:29Z drmeister: Sort of - trying to give trivial-garbage support.
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2015-05-28T00:20:07Z drmeister: Clasp offers good support for weak-key-hash-tables, weak-key-mapping, and weak-pointers.
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2015-05-28T00:23:23Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/qWeR0Bg0
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2015-05-28T02:55:52Z patrickwonders figured out my quicklisp problem from earlier…. I thought I had rebooted my Mac over the weekend, but I hadn’t rebooted it for more than a month.  Somehow, with the two VPNs and six or eight WiFi networks, my networking was borked.  A reboot fixed it all.
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2015-05-28T03:20:22Z loke: drmeister: Hello
2015-05-28T03:20:39Z drmeister: Howdy
2015-05-28T03:22:59Z loke: drmeister: Is it easier to build clasp these days? Last time I tried it failed miserably. I really want to try it now.
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2015-05-28T03:23:17Z drmeister: More people have done it.
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2015-05-28T03:23:32Z loke: Is there a canonical guide somewhere?
2015-05-28T03:23:38Z drmeister: I don't know about easier.
2015-05-28T03:23:49Z drmeister: No, there's the README.md of the github project.
2015-05-28T03:24:22Z loke: OK. Syncing now. Penty of updates since my past pull
2015-05-28T03:24:50Z drmeister: I've been working on a new branch that is considerably advanced over the master branch.
2015-05-28T03:25:03Z loke: drmeister: Which one is that, and should I use it?
2015-05-28T03:25:11Z drmeister: Not yet.
2015-05-28T03:25:30Z drmeister: I've added cleavir, tagged pointers and immediate values.
2015-05-28T03:25:43Z drmeister: It's still very much a hobbiest project.
2015-05-28T03:25:49Z drmeister: hobbyist
2015-05-28T03:25:52Z drmeister: Sheesh
2015-05-28T03:32:31Z nyef: hobby, hobbier, hobbiest?
2015-05-28T03:34:28Z loke: OK, trying to build the latest externals-clasp
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2015-05-28T03:35:21Z loke: hobby hobbyer hobbyest
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2015-05-28T04:34:41Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-05-28T04:46:28Z theos: hey
2015-05-28T04:47:42Z nyef: G'morning beach.
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2015-05-28T05:25:04Z wooden: i have a project with a class "character".  i've been shadowing the built-in in my package and referring to it as cl:character where needed.  reading about class naming conventions i see a suggestion that classes can be enclosed in angle brackets, e.g. <character>.  how common is this?  any better suggestions, so i don't have to shadow the built-in chracter symbol?
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2015-05-28T05:28:38Z Zhivago: That's a T and Dylan convention, iirc.
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2015-05-28T05:28:53Z Zhivago: There's nothing particularly wrong with it, imho.
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2015-05-28T05:29:18Z Zhivago: However, you might consider if things that use cl:character belong in that package in the first place.
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2015-05-28T05:29:31Z Zhivago: Perhaps they're better delegated to some auxillary suppport package?
2015-05-28T05:29:39Z Zhivago: In which case, the problem does not arise.
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2015-05-28T05:32:03Z wooden: Zhivago: thanks.  i haven't actually needed to use cl:character yet.  my editor still highlights "character" as a common lisp keyword which is a little annoying.  i can remove it from the syntax rule, but i thought if there was another widespread convention i could use to disambiguate class character vs. cl:character that would be good, too.
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2015-05-28T05:33:13Z Zhivago: Sounds like the editor isn't quite smart enough, which is understandable.
2015-05-28T05:33:23Z nyef: Perhaps you should break open a thesaurus and look for a synonym to use instead of "character" as the class name?
2015-05-28T05:34:05Z nyef: Or you could get more specific, such as having it be a hyphenated-character class instead?
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2015-05-28T05:43:48Z beach: Or, you could use first-class global environments! :)
2015-05-28T05:45:47Z wooden: beach: sorry, beach, what does that mean?
2015-05-28T05:46:10Z beach: wooden: You can't use those (yet).  I was joking.  It's a feature of SICL.
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2015-05-28T05:48:50Z wooden: beach: ah.  how close is that project to achieving its goals?
2015-05-28T05:48:57Z Zhivago: Why are you highlighting things as common lisp keywords?
2015-05-28T05:48:57Z beach: Not close.
2015-05-28T05:50:06Z wooden: Zhivago: in vim the syntax highlighting still highlights 'character' as a common lisp keyword rather than as a class.
2015-05-28T05:50:54Z Zhivago: I'd turn that off, as it seems particularly ... useless. :)
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2015-05-28T05:51:52Z wooden: Zhivago: i find syntax highlighting is pretty useful, especially with a language with so little syntax to give cues.
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2015-05-28T05:52:26Z Zhivago: Fair enough.
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2015-05-28T05:53:23Z Shinmera: loke: The easiest and most supported way to build clasp is to use the AUR packages, or at least follow their scripts.
2015-05-28T05:53:35Z Shinmera: loke: By "supported" I mean that you can scream at me if it doesn't work.
2015-05-28T05:54:08Z loke: Shinmera: OK, I'll try that, since even clasp-externals faild to build for me
2015-05-28T05:54:32Z loke: "make[8]: pod2html: Command not found"
2015-05-28T05:54:50Z loke: what package do I have to install to get that?
2015-05-28T05:55:05Z Shinmera: perl, it seems.
2015-05-28T05:55:34Z loke: well, I have perl
2015-05-28T05:55:55Z Shinmera: https://www.archlinux.org/packages/core/i686/perl/files/ pod2html is in that list
2015-05-28T05:56:33Z loke: Oh, it's in /usr/bin/core_perl
2015-05-28T05:57:24Z Shinmera: I guess I'll have to add perl to the build dependencies of the package.
2015-05-28T05:57:36Z loke: also add that directory to PATH
2015-05-28T05:57:46Z Shinmera: I never had to do that
2015-05-28T05:57:50Z Shinmera: always was in PATH already for me
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2015-05-28T05:59:13Z loke: I set my path explicitly
2015-05-28T05:59:36Z loke: I'm pretty sure I'm not alone, so the script should perhaps check for the avilability of the tools
2015-05-28T05:59:41Z Shinmera: Ah. Right.
2015-05-28T05:59:59Z Shinmera: Though that should really more be a thing of the build system, imo.
2015-05-28T06:00:22Z loke: yes
2015-05-28T06:00:26Z Shinmera: Regardless, externals-clasp will be dropped in the future, so I'll add it to the package for now.
2015-05-28T06:00:33Z loke: cool, thanks
2015-05-28T06:03:36Z Shinmera: Should hopefully work now.
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2015-05-28T06:10:55Z kami: Good morning #lisp
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2015-05-28T07:24:34Z loz: cheers
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2015-05-28T09:46:48Z p_l: anyone here tried to do realtime video playing with CL? :)
2015-05-28T09:48:53Z |3b|: i think people have streamed camera video using opencv with cl
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2015-05-28T09:49:12Z Shinmera: Only through Qt, which defeats the point of this question, I'm guessing.
2015-05-28T09:49:29Z |3b|: seem to remember people at least trying to use ffmpeg from cl as well, but not sure that got anywhere
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2015-05-28T09:50:21Z |3b| would try to let some lib do as much as possible, av-synch is a hassle :/
2015-05-28T09:50:51Z p_l: the idea is to use FFmpeg to render video into OpenGL display and render additional effects on top
2015-05-28T09:51:59Z p_l: use OpenGL 3.1, shaders, draw_multiple_indirect etc.
2015-05-28T09:52:38Z p_l: s/draw_mul.* /GL_ARB_multi_draw_indirect/
2015-05-28T09:52:45Z |3b|: video without audio is easier, though "real" video files can be pretty uncooperative
2015-05-28T09:53:03Z p_l: |3b|: for some it might be doable without audio
2015-05-28T09:53:03Z |3b|: also depends on your latency requirements
2015-05-28T09:53:22Z p_l: but yeah, MKV as input, though the video would be dedicated for the use case
2015-05-28T09:53:29Z p_l: (not something random off the net)
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2015-05-28T09:54:14Z p_l: generally, the idea is digital signage, where you have rich video as underlayer and dynamically modifiable layers on top of it
2015-05-28T09:54:16Z |3b|: assuming sane source data helps a lot, if you don't need to deal with it randomly changing resolution halfway through, timestamps jumping all over the place, etc
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2015-05-28T09:55:25Z |3b|: and if you can just pick 1 color space to handle
2015-05-28T09:55:37Z p_l: |3b|: I'd actually love to also make an editor for the dynamic layers :)
2015-05-28T09:55:54Z p_l: though the most "evil" idea was to mux an SBCL fasl into MKV
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2015-05-28T09:58:32Z |3b|: well, editor doesn't add too much difficulty to the playing video part, aside from adding GC pressure (though editor is probably a pretty big task on its own :)
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2015-05-28T09:59:27Z |3b|: with fixed format, no av sync, and reasonably high latency tolerance, playing video shouldn't be too hard
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2015-05-28T10:00:14Z |3b|: (where "reasonably high" is in the hundreds of ms range)
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2015-05-28T10:01:00Z |3b|: if you can't drop frames, then GC might be a problem
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2015-05-28T10:40:19Z theos: is there something that outputs javascript from CL?
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2015-05-28T10:45:38Z jackdaniel: theos: parenscript
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2015-05-28T10:48:13Z theos: jackdaniel doesnt parenscript produce CL from JS?
2015-05-28T10:48:29Z Shinmera: No.
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2015-05-28T10:50:41Z theos: thanks
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2015-05-28T10:51:52Z antoszka: Well, parenscript isn't exactly CL, but it does output JS from a Lisp.
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2015-05-28T10:59:15Z brucem: someone here was working on compiling Eclipse CL to JS via Emscripten.
2015-05-28T10:59:19Z brucem: Not sure where he got.
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2015-05-28T11:33:08Z jackdaniel: brucem: are you sure you haven't confused Eclipse CL with Embeddable CL ? someone was working on compiling ECL to JS with package you mentioned
2015-05-28T11:33:21Z jackdaniel: if yes, check mailing list - it was partially working afair
2015-05-28T11:33:27Z Xach: no
2015-05-28T11:33:29Z Shinmera: He hasn't confused it.
2015-05-28T11:33:33Z jackdaniel: ok
2015-05-28T11:33:37Z Xach: jasom is working on eclipse cl and emscripten
2015-05-28T11:33:49Z Xach: (was?)
2015-05-28T11:34:04Z jackdaniel: (wasp)
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2015-05-28T12:27:36Z p_l: |3b|: re: GC in video playing - I strongly suspect that the GC could be rather minimized :)
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2015-05-28T12:30:19Z |3b|: p_l: sure, if that's all you do and you plan for it. run a big editor, or lots of complicated code to draw the overlays, or have lots of finalizers for FFI stuff, and it might start adding up
2015-05-28T12:31:14Z |3b|: 30fps or lower isn't too bad though, particularly if nobody would notice a dropped frame once in a while (or dropped half frame if display is running at 60)
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2015-05-28T12:35:01Z p_l: yeah, that's not a problem. In general, editing would be secondary
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2015-05-28T12:35:48Z |3b| is probably overly paranoid about GC, since for VR dropped frames can mean pretty bad nausea
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2015-05-28T12:38:29Z p_l: |3b|: ah, no VR here
2015-05-28T12:38:57Z p_l: digital signage, meaning usually big or not so big screens placed in restaurants/transport/etc.
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2015-05-28T13:36:07Z oleo: hello
2015-05-28T13:37:33Z oGMo: drmeister: conspack assumes utf-8, but i'm not sure what trivial-utf-8 requires
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2015-05-28T13:38:19Z aerique: Xach: how can I check whether my changes have fixed these errors?: http://report.quicklisp.org/2015-05-27/failure-report/black-tie.html#black-tie
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2015-05-28T13:40:35Z Xach: aerique: i wrote a manual check for the slots. if you put :description, :author, and :license into the system file, it's fixed
2015-05-28T13:40:53Z aerique: Xach: alright, thanks
2015-05-28T13:41:32Z Xach: i'm going to blog about what that report means today
2015-05-28T13:41:46Z Xach: hopefully can give more help and context to people who want to add more data to their systems
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2015-05-28T13:44:03Z oGMo: drmeister: at a glance, trivial-utf-8 doesn't appear to _do_ much or require much support, except expecting char-code to take appropriately-large values. you could almost certainly "fake it" for now for values >127
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2015-05-28T13:45:18Z oGMo: err code-char
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2015-05-28T13:46:40Z aerique: Xach: :license is freeform by the looks of (ASDF docs don't say much and browsing through some repos gives the impression of freeform)
2015-05-28T13:46:51Z Xach: aerique: yes
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2015-05-28T13:52:16Z White_Flame: oGMo: what would you expect it to do?  utf-8 is just a codec between bytes and code points
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2015-05-28T14:04:43Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: elc is working good
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2015-05-28T14:05:05Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: I'm developing a small i2c driver on beaglebone
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2015-05-28T14:15:02Z drmeister: oGMo: got it, thanks.
2015-05-28T14:15:39Z drmeister: I'm just pushing back on a flight to San Francisco.
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2015-05-28T14:18:18Z nyef: ... I think I finally understand the tendency of some people to use LOOP :KEYWORDS.
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2015-05-28T14:18:35Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: that's good - if you succeed you may create tutorial how to use i2c from ECL - we'll put it in ECL Quarterly - and if it's application you're making, then we can add it to succesful stories
2015-05-28T14:18:39Z jackdaniel: :)
2015-05-28T14:19:06Z nyef: Or, at least, I've finally run into a situation where it's a reasonable resolution for a set of forces.
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2015-05-28T15:52:37Z Oladon1: Is there an ANSI equivalent for the old with-added-methods special form?
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2015-05-28T16:01:15Z Oladon: Hrm, doesn't look like it.
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2015-05-28T16:08:00Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2015-05-28T16:08:03Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-05-28T16:23:03Z Oladon: Hiya beach
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2015-05-28T17:35:57Z Oladon: So I've got a bunch of threads, each associated with a single user session. Another package calls a generic "output" function (with a single message argument) and depends on whatever's using it to implement the specific method(s). Originally I'd thought I could just define a method specific to each thread, but of course I can't; method definitions are globally set. At this point I'm at a loss; how can I direct the output to the correct use
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2015-05-28T17:39:53Z Xach: cut off at "output to the correct use[END]"
2015-05-28T17:40:12Z Oladon: Ah
2015-05-28T17:40:16Z Oladon: r without the user being present when the method is called?
2015-05-28T17:40:26Z Oladon: Thanks; my client didn't show the cut-off, of course :)
2015-05-28T17:41:15Z Oladon: I think I might be able to implement the output method as if it'd use a global *user*, and then scope that within each thread...
2015-05-28T17:41:30Z Oladon: I'm not sure that's a good approach though.
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2015-05-28T17:42:33Z Bike: why not just have the output function take a second argument?
2015-05-28T17:42:55Z Oladon: The package that calls the output function often doesn't have access to what would need to go in there
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2015-05-28T18:00:32Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: i2c with beaglebone + ecl seems to work flawlessy
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2015-05-28T18:31:58Z siriusbtx: does someone know how I can pass a struct by value with cffi?
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2015-05-28T18:39:38Z LiamH: siriusbtx: yes
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2015-05-28T18:41:41Z siriusbtx: LiamH: could you explain? I installed ffi, but don't know what to do next
2015-05-28T18:41:52Z siriusbtx: LiamH: im a common lisp beginner :p
2015-05-28T18:42:15Z LiamH: Did you read manual? https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/defcfun.html
2015-05-28T18:42:36Z siriusbtx: LiamH: ye
2015-05-28T18:44:24Z siriusbtx: LiamH: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Foreign-Structure-Types.html
2015-05-28T18:44:30Z siriusbtx: LiamH: it says: To pass or return a structure by value to a function, load the cffi-libffi system and specify the structure as (:struct structure-name)
2015-05-28T18:44:51Z siriusbtx: LiamH: but where do I have to specify the structure with (:struct ...)
2015-05-28T18:44:59Z siriusbtx: LiamH: in the defcfun?
2015-05-28T18:45:06Z LiamH: In the function declaration.
2015-05-28T18:45:14Z siriusbtx: LiamH: ah ok
2015-05-28T18:45:23Z LiamH: See the defcfun page
2015-05-28T18:45:50Z siriusbtx: LiamH: like I said, im a noob with common lisp
2015-05-28T18:45:58Z siriusbtx: LiamH: so I dont understand everything it says
2015-05-28T18:46:09Z LiamH: That actually is a CFFI thing.
2015-05-28T18:46:34Z siriusbtx: LiamH: but its written in cl :p
2015-05-28T18:47:09Z LiamH: Right, but even understanding CL might not make that part clear.
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2015-05-28T18:58:47Z siriusbtx: LiamH: Do you know why I am getting this error? http://pastebin.com/eYemJDNB
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2015-05-28T18:59:58Z LiamH: what's the defcstruct?
2015-05-28T19:00:17Z siriusbtx: (cffi:defcstruct MyStruct
2015-05-28T19:00:18Z siriusbtx: 	(x :int)
2015-05-28T19:00:18Z siriusbtx: 	(y :int))
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2015-05-28T19:03:30Z didi: Can I (loop for c across string ...) but in reverse? So c as "foo" => #\o #\o #\f
2015-05-28T19:03:54Z LiamH: siriusbtx: no
2015-05-28T19:04:03Z siriusbtx: didi: cant you just do (reverse string)
2015-05-28T19:04:13Z didi: siriusbtx: I can. But I want to avoid the cost.
2015-05-28T19:04:15Z LiamH: don't see anything immediately wrong
2015-05-28T19:04:22Z siriusbtx: LiamH: kk
2015-05-28T19:04:47Z siriusbtx: LiamH: ill try to restart emacs :P, maybe that will fix it
2015-05-28T19:05:05Z didi: siriusbtx: (loop for i downfrom (1- (length string)) to 0 ... (char string i)) perform better but it is less clear.
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2015-05-28T19:07:52Z dim: discovering char, that completes aref and svref... any hint when to use it? clearer code maybe?
2015-05-28T19:08:30Z didi: dim: I use it in the hope it will perform better when using strings.
2015-05-28T19:08:47Z didi: When I am sure I will be using strings, of course.
2015-05-28T19:09:30Z Shinmera: Why would it perform better?
2015-05-28T19:09:38Z didi: No type check? I dunno.
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2015-05-28T19:17:17Z Bike: it's basically the same as (aref (the string a) b). might or might not help
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2015-05-28T19:33:06Z Shinmera: Does anyone have an idea what might cause emacs to completely lock up when slime is trying to connect to swank? The swank server itself starts up just fine, and this started happening suddenly with no obvious changes on my side. I even updated slime and it's still the same deal.
2015-05-28T19:35:30Z |3b|: compiling a bunch of lisp-side code?
2015-05-28T19:36:01Z Shinmera: It happens even if I open up SBCL in term, load swank myself, and then use slime-connect.
2015-05-28T19:36:14Z |3b|: any .swank.lisp file?
2015-05-28T19:36:17Z Shinmera: There's no compiling going on from what I can tell. Emacs just locks up indefinitely until I abort it with C-g
2015-05-28T19:36:22Z Shinmera: Nope.
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2015-05-28T19:41:12Z Shinmera: I think something weird is going on with my network configuration
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2015-05-28T19:42:09Z Shinmera: Yeah, seems like my iptables config got screwed over and that blocked the connection somehow.
2015-05-28T19:43:00Z |3b|: heh, that was my next guess, but figured it was too unlikely :p
2015-05-28T19:43:33Z didi recommends .slime-secret
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2015-05-28T20:11:28Z White_Flame: Oladon: I would consider a thread-local binding for *user* to be the correct approach.
2015-05-28T20:11:54Z Oladon: White_Flame: thanks, I ended up going with that since no one suggested anything else :)
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2015-05-28T20:53:19Z knobo: Does anyone use cl21?
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2015-05-28T20:53:44Z knobo: anyone of you :)
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2015-05-28T20:54:42Z knobo: looks like a good ide to me.
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2015-05-28T20:55:39Z Shinmera: I haven't heard of anyone actually using it.
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2015-05-28T20:57:25Z knobo: Going in that direction would be a good idea in many ways.
2015-05-28T20:58:40Z Xach: knobo: are you going to use it?
2015-05-28T20:58:58Z knobo: I don't know
2015-05-28T20:59:03Z knobo: I just found out about it
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2015-05-28T22:30:04Z skrue: is there a way, with slime/emacs, to get a separate frame listing the symbols that you have defined?
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2015-05-28T22:43:11Z edgar-rft: skrue: AFAIK the only way to distinguish symbols are by the package in that they were defined. So if you create your own package and define your symbols in that package you could use e.g. DO-SYMBOLS to iterate over all symbols in that package and print them. If you have symbols defined in the COMMON-LISP-USER package there will be no way to distinguish your symbols from other symbols.
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2015-05-28T22:46:03Z antoszka: skrue: you're free to add some "tags" or whatever information to the symbol-plist slot of a symbol.
2015-05-28T22:46:20Z antoszka: skrue: if you want to mark some symbols within a given package.
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2015-05-28T22:46:48Z antoszka: but that wouldn't be very practical I'd say
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2015-05-28T23:18:05Z pjb: edgar-rft: have more imagination. For example, to know what new symbols have been interned (whatever the package), you could build lists of all symbols, then take the difference between the new list and the old list.
2015-05-28T23:20:37Z Xach: luis: happy cffi day!
2015-05-28T23:21:09Z pillton: Is CFFI a year older?
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2015-05-28T23:43:25Z Xach: no, just a new release
2015-05-28T23:47:44Z Xach: "just"
2015-05-28T23:47:47Z Xach: that's enough!
2015-05-28T23:53:15Z luis: Eheh. CFFI's 10th birthday is coming up, actually.
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2015-05-28T23:53:57Z luis: Not sure what to do about it, really.
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2015-05-29T03:28:13Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-05-29T03:29:39Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2015-05-29T03:33:53Z failproofshark: hello beach
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2015-05-29T03:39:45Z drmeister: Hi beach
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2015-05-29T03:58:52Z beach: drmeister: So are you in California?
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2015-05-29T04:04:39Z drmeister: Yes
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2015-05-29T04:23:39Z theos: hey
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2015-05-29T05:43:49Z beach: I would characterize the work on SICL bootstrapping as "two steps forward one step back", but it is more like "ten steps forward nine steps back".
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2015-05-29T05:47:34Z jackdaniel sometimes does three steps forward to make four steps back
2015-05-29T05:47:36Z jackdaniel: ;)
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2015-05-29T05:48:26Z beach: That had better be just sometimes.  Otherwise you are in big trouble.
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2015-05-29T05:57:06Z jackdaniel: it is sometimes, but recovering from such troubles is better experience and motivator then flawless flow
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2015-05-29T05:57:57Z jackdaniel: I think (observing children of my sister), that even if you are gifted, but you met no troubles with something, you get bored and switch to something more tiresome
2015-05-29T05:58:18Z jackdaniel: therefore, failures are essential in developing interest in subject (imho)
2015-05-29T05:58:59Z beach: Sure.
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2015-05-29T07:32:24Z curtis__: hello everyone
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2015-05-29T07:32:58Z kami: Good morning.
2015-05-29T07:35:29Z kami: I'm looking at this code: #+(or :sbcl :cmu) (parameter-error "bla")
2015-05-29T07:35:47Z kami: but parameter-error seems to be gone in sbcl
2015-05-29T07:37:15Z kami: (if it was ever existent)
2015-05-29T07:41:03Z splittist: kami: it's defined by hunchentoot
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2015-05-29T07:41:49Z kami: splittist: where did you find this? I was just cursing google/yahoo/duckduckgo because they don't search for +"parameter-error" when I say so.
2015-05-29T07:42:04Z kami: Thanks, anyway.
2015-05-29T07:42:08Z kami: :)
2015-05-29T07:42:37Z splittist: http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/#parameter-error (I was just googling 'sbcl "parameter-error"' and followed the breadcrumbs)
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2015-05-29T07:47:05Z kami: I tried 'sbcl +"parameter-error"' which gives nothing about hunchentoot (at least nothing on the first 3 pages).
2015-05-29T07:47:15Z kami: strange
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2015-05-29T07:51:54Z splittist: 6th result on the first page for me - or mentioned at the top of the file which is the 4th hit (trivial-ssh).
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2015-05-29T08:05:56Z jackdaniel: search bubble
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2015-05-29T08:33:15Z jackdaniel: using eq with symbols is safe, right?
2015-05-29T08:34:46Z splittist: jackdaniel: yes (if I intuit what you mean by 'safe' correctly)
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2015-05-29T08:35:24Z jackdaniel: I mean there won't be situation, that (eq 'abc 'abc) ==>NIL
2015-05-29T08:35:37Z jackdaniel: thanks
2015-05-29T08:36:26Z splittist: Of course, who knows what beach's first class global environments will do to all our certainties.
2015-05-29T08:37:12Z jackdaniel: :)
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2015-05-29T08:38:58Z Zhivago: They'll convert all of your problems into first class problems.
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2015-05-29T08:41:31Z loz: greetings
2015-05-29T08:43:04Z jackdaniel: hi loz
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2015-05-29T08:47:18Z Zhivago: jack: I recommend always using EQL for identity, unless you have a performance issue and can prove that EQ is correct.
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2015-05-29T08:55:11Z Cymew: I seem to remember reading somewhere a really good summary of when you want to use EQUAL, EQL and EQ. If I remembered where I read it, I would have linked to it.
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2015-05-29T08:55:47Z jackdaniel: PCL presents same opinion as Zhivago
2015-05-29T08:55:52Z Cymew: EQ is something I almost never use
2015-05-29T08:56:05Z Cymew: It could have been PCL, maybe.
2015-05-29T08:56:22Z H4ns: Cymew: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html maybe?
2015-05-29T08:57:51Z Cymew: Doesn't look familiar, but KMP is always worth reading.
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2015-05-29T09:11:39Z loz: > (ACCEPT-FROM-STRING 'NUMBER "3.2")   -> 3.2
2015-05-29T09:11:46Z loz: does this exist in some library?
2015-05-29T09:12:36Z Zhivago: Looks CLIMly.
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2015-05-29T09:13:03Z loz: Zhivago: ql says Component "clim" not found
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2015-05-29T09:13:43Z Zhivago: Unfortunate.
2015-05-29T09:16:54Z jackdaniel: loz: (ql:system-apropos "clim")
2015-05-29T09:17:16Z jackdaniel: returns number of results, however I don't know how mcclim reassembles clim per se
2015-05-29T09:17:24Z Shinmera: CLIM is a standard. McCLIM would be an implementation of it that you can quickload.
2015-05-29T09:17:48Z Shinmera: And yes, CLIM does have an ACCEPT-FROM-STRING.
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2015-05-29T09:18:08Z H4ns: it should be said that mcclim is not something that one would want to use for a real program.
2015-05-29T09:18:43Z loz: Shinmera: however it fails to install
2015-05-29T09:18:52Z Shinmera: loz: Works fine and dandy for me.
2015-05-29T09:18:53Z H4ns: loz: take that as a sign
2015-05-29T09:19:12Z Shinmera: Either way, clim is large and using it for a single function would be a bad idea.
2015-05-29T09:19:14Z jackdaniel: H4ns: I sense you had hard time with mcclim :D
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2015-05-29T09:19:24Z loke: Shinmera: I'd argue that it would be difficult to actually use it for a real application.
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2015-05-29T09:19:54Z loz: Shinmera: i can install mcclim though
2015-05-29T09:20:28Z Shinmera: loke: I've never used it myself, so I can't say one way or another.
2015-05-29T09:20:36Z loke: Shinmera: right :-)
2015-05-29T09:21:21Z Shinmera: Coincidentally, right now I'm working on making CommonQt easier to install by handling the compilation of the smoke libraries automatically.
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2015-05-29T09:23:02Z schjetne: Speaking of McCLIM, has anyone else ever had the problem of every command beginning with C- turning into C-S-?
2015-05-29T09:23:31Z schjetne: For instance going back and forth in text fields with C-b and C-f turn into C-B and C-F, which are undefined commands
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2015-05-29T09:27:25Z loke: Well, McClim doesn't even handle unicod nor modern fornt rendering
2015-05-29T09:27:36Z loke: that's reason alone not to use it
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2015-05-29T09:28:05Z schjetne: I was mostly just curious
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2015-05-29T09:28:19Z schjetne: Loaded a few programs, poked around, then closed it
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2015-05-29T09:32:12Z splittist: schjetne: Clim is a great source of interesting ideas, not just about graphical user interfaces and interaction, but about coding, too.
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2015-05-29T09:33:29Z jackdaniel: it would be nice to have decent native CL toolkit
2015-05-29T09:33:39Z jackdaniel: for GUI
2015-05-29T09:34:02Z loz: bindings or custom toolkit?
2015-05-29T09:34:28Z jackdaniel: custom toolkit
2015-05-29T09:34:38Z jackdaniel: we have a few decent bindings afaik
2015-05-29T09:35:24Z splittist: How would a custom toolkit feel different to, say, Qtools?
2015-05-29T09:36:21Z jackdaniel: I think it would turn out organically in par with developing such thing - not sure however since GUI's are not my thing anyway and never used Qtools
2015-05-29T09:36:26Z Shinmera: You wouldn't hit brick walls whenever you call a toolkit function.
2015-05-29T09:37:39Z Shinmera: I think I said this before at an ELS chat. The biggest downside from my POV about using Qt or anything like it is that you can't M-. into toolkit functions. I regularly do this with CL libraries to not only see how it works, but also find my way around the library and figure out alternative ways to use it.
2015-05-29T09:38:11Z schjetne: jackdaniel: what about CLIMatis?
2015-05-29T09:38:12Z Shinmera: Also, but this is more a Qtools issue: Currently docstrings for toolkit functions are not very informative.
2015-05-29T09:38:32Z antoszka: Maybe the way to then would be to resuscitate CLIM? In whichever of its embodiments, probably mcclim.
2015-05-29T09:38:45Z antoszka: s/to/to go/
2015-05-29T09:38:59Z Shinmera: antoszka: I'd rather wait for beach to finish the CLIMII spec, whenever that happens.
2015-05-29T09:39:12Z jackdaniel: schjetne: funny, I was just lurking the web, since I have loosely remembered that there was something like CLIM III
2015-05-29T09:39:15Z jackdaniel: and there it is
2015-05-29T09:39:16Z jackdaniel: :P
2015-05-29T09:39:35Z antoszka: Shinmera: Yeah, that's sensible too.
2015-05-29T09:39:49Z Shinmera: Either way, it won't happen any time soon.
2015-05-29T09:39:51Z antoszka: Would really be great to have a toolkit that's lispy all the way down.
2015-05-29T09:40:00Z Shinmera: In the meantime, I'll continue trying to make Qt bearable.
2015-05-29T09:40:16Z antoszka: Not suddenly hitting a c++/whatever layer one function down :)
2015-05-29T09:40:20Z splittist: Isn't one of the issues with the CLIM 1 spec that they finished it before they actually tested whether implementing it all made sense?
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2015-05-29T09:40:51Z antoszka: Never heard of that bit of Lisp 'lore ;)
2015-05-29T09:40:54Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: next week I will get the creator ci 20 board and start the real implementation, anyway i2c works well on the beagle bone with ecl and friends!
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2015-05-29T09:41:57Z jackdaniel: that's good to hear - as I mentioned, tutorial would be something very nice :P
2015-05-29T09:44:12Z schjetne: I wonder if such a native Lisp toolkit should be as integrated as possible with the native operating systems, or boxed in by itself like Pharo (the Smalltalk system) or Genera.
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2015-05-29T09:44:31Z antoszka: I wouldn't mind seeing it boxed.
2015-05-29T09:44:57Z jackdaniel: what do you mean by boxed?
2015-05-29T09:45:02Z antoszka: Being a tiling/mono user. Though I guess a lot of other users would.
2015-05-29T09:45:08Z antoszka: jackdaniel: Contained within a single X-client.
2015-05-29T09:45:21Z antoszka: I suppose.
2015-05-29T09:45:40Z jackdaniel: hm, I think that this would be handled by backend
2015-05-29T09:45:53Z splittist: I do wonder if 'native look and feel' is overrated.
2015-05-29T09:46:02Z schjetne: I guess a window server can be built in CLIM3 itself, which in turn can use any available backend. Right now the only backend is X11, but I guess it could just as well be DirectFB, Wayland or any exotic rendering system you might want it to run in
2015-05-29T09:46:11Z Shinmera: splittist: Lots of applications diverge from it nowadays. Especially if you consider websites.
2015-05-29T09:46:53Z splittist: My browser, my word processor, my painting program - all completely different (from each other, and from their previous generation, largely...)
2015-05-29T09:47:32Z splittist: File manager, text editor, chat client...
2015-05-29T09:47:33Z antoszka: splittist: Native look&feel is just sticking ones head in a history dead-end. After all all the traditional widgets turned out to be a bad evolutionary choice, we see most new apps with a random GUI designed in CSS/JS.
2015-05-29T09:48:00Z antoszka: splittist: So breaking with that would only do good. IMO.
2015-05-29T09:48:13Z splittist: antoszka: agreed.
2015-05-29T09:48:23Z splittist: (:
2015-05-29T09:48:34Z Shinmera: I'm not a fan of most website's designs to be honest, though I can't say what we think of as "native LAF" is a good idea either.
2015-05-29T09:48:45Z antoszka: Exactly.
2015-05-29T09:48:53Z jackdaniel: set& / pset&   or rather   set& / set&*   (sequential vs parallel)
2015-05-29T09:48:58Z Shinmera: I'd like some form of streamlining, but nothing has crystallised yet, I suppose.
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2015-05-29T09:50:01Z jackdaniel: for generalized set operator for trees (like in destructuring-bind)
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2015-05-29T10:43:03Z schjetne: I would have wanted native look & feel if the native system didn't look and feel so terrible. But then, how do we avoid the same happening in a single-client approach like Pharo or Genera?
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2015-05-29T11:29:56Z spaade: clojure CL or scheme as my first lisp?
2015-05-29T11:30:18Z Shinmera: This is a channel for Common Lisp. Hence: Common Lisp.
2015-05-29T11:32:00Z remi`bd: spaade: you’re comparing a particular implementation of Common Lisp and a generic language (Scheme), this has no sense
2015-05-29T11:32:37Z Shinmera: remi`bd: He said "CL", not "CLISP".
2015-05-29T11:32:38Z schjetne: remi`bd: I think he meant Clojure, the JVM language, not Clozure CL
2015-05-29T11:32:53Z spaade: yes
2015-05-29T11:32:54Z remi`bd: oh
2015-05-29T11:33:00Z remi`bd: sorry about that :D
2015-05-29T11:33:10Z schjetne: But yes, Common Lisp
2015-05-29T11:33:23Z Shinmera: minion: Tell spaade about PCL
2015-05-29T11:33:23Z minion: spaade: have a look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2015-05-29T11:33:35Z novemberist: is clojure even considered a "lisp" ?
2015-05-29T11:34:11Z remi`bd: by clojurists, yes…
2015-05-29T11:34:13Z Shinmera: novemberist: Depends on whom you ask. Just the same as with any "lisp" debate.
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2015-05-29T11:35:53Z novemberist: yeah,i guess ... i've always had this irrational hate for everything connected to java, so i don't really know anything about clojure
2015-05-29T11:36:17Z novemberist: it seems to be popular, though ;)
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2015-05-29T11:37:27Z schjetne: I think the biggest criticism from these parts it that it's needless fragmentation. The point of Common Lisp was unificaiton. If you want to run on the JVM, use ABCL. If you want immutable data structures, implement them in CL. If you want STM, get STMX.
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2015-05-29T11:38:41Z theos: minion: Tell theos about ACL
2015-05-29T11:38:41Z minion: ACL: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/ACL
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2015-05-29T11:41:38Z theos: minion: Tell theos about sclr
2015-05-29T11:41:38Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``sclr''.
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2015-05-29T11:43:16Z theos: i like this CL reference http://jtra.cz/stuff/lisp/sclr/
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2015-05-29T11:44:56Z antoszka: clqr is another nice condensed one
2015-05-29T11:45:23Z antoszka: http://clqr.boundp.org/ is the new url
2015-05-29T11:45:28Z novemberist: are there downloadable offline versions of it?
2015-05-29T11:46:08Z theos: http://clqr.boundp.org/download.html
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2015-05-29T11:49:10Z novemberist: nice, thank you
2015-05-29T11:50:05Z antoszka: novemberist: it's designed for local offline printing and making yourself a funny thin booklet
2015-05-29T11:50:19Z antoszka: I with there was a horizontal A5 variant
2015-05-29T11:50:23Z antoszka: wish*
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2015-05-29T11:51:54Z novemberist: i can't wait for the cl book edi weitz is writing
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2015-05-29T11:53:41Z novemberist: i think a cookbook-style book for cl would be really nice
2015-05-29T11:53:52Z antoszka: yeah!
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2015-05-29T11:54:15Z schjetne: Doesn't StackOverflow pretty much fill that gap these days?
2015-05-29T11:55:00Z novemberist: i prefer something printed for offline use
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2015-05-29T11:56:30Z schjetne: Something that covers the nitty gritty details of running a Lisp project would be nice. ASDF, packages, organizing, all that.
2015-05-29T11:56:44Z schjetne: The only problem is that that sort of thing tends to be pretty opinionated
2015-05-29T11:56:58Z pjb: spaade: I hope you now realize the importance of commas.  If you had written: "clojure, CL or scheme as my first lisp?" you would have avoided a useless discussion.  http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/commas-are-the-most-important#.ghmp4llXL0
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2015-05-29T11:57:53Z novemberist: pcl kinda touches all of that, but it always feels like I have to work through it from start to finsih to fully understand later chapters
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2015-05-29T11:58:32Z novemberist: and it's 10 years old now...and now we have things like quicklisp etc.
2015-05-29T11:58:55Z spaade: pjb yeah I noticed that myself as well
2015-05-29T11:59:06Z spaade: what are the pros of CL compared to the other two, btw?
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2015-05-29T12:01:09Z antoszka: spaade: It's well standardised (ANSI), has a number of great compilers/implementations and carries some very best ideas over from the development history of Lisps.
2015-05-29T12:01:33Z novemberist: spaade: depends on what you want to achieve with it, I guess
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2015-05-29T12:16:28Z loz can't understand how to make a character stream with specified encoding from a string
2015-05-29T12:16:45Z jackdaniel: pjb: syntax! ;-)
2015-05-29T12:17:22Z loz: flexi-streams have no read/write methods, but read-line fails cause its not applicable to flexi-stream object
2015-05-29T12:17:52Z |3b|: strings don't have encodings
2015-05-29T12:18:07Z |3b|: strings are already characters
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2015-05-29T12:19:42Z loz: |3b|: i want to simulate http-stream like one drakma gives you as its result
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2015-05-29T12:19:45Z |3b|: if you have some random binary data (for example text data in some particular encoding) as characters, you are doing something wrong. usually you would have the encoded data in a (unsigned-byte 8) vector, which you could pass to flexidtreams for decoding
2015-05-29T12:19:46Z loz: for tests
2015-05-29T12:20:21Z loz: html steam*
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2015-05-29T12:26:45Z |3b| isn't seeing an easy way to get character decoding through a stream from a vector of encoded octets though
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2015-05-29T12:27:34Z splittist: babel-stream ?
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2015-05-29T12:27:55Z loz: |3b|: i'm making encoded vector with babel:string-to-octets, and then use it for flexi-streams:make-in-memory-input-stream
2015-05-29T12:27:56Z splittist: s/m/ms/
2015-05-29T12:28:05Z loz: but last on can't be readed with read-line =(
2015-05-29T12:28:08Z |3b|: i guess with-input-from-sequence then wrap it in make-flexi-stream
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2015-05-29T12:31:04Z |3b|: loz: wrap that stream in make-flexi-stream, and specify an encoding to that and the result should allow read-line
2015-05-29T12:31:40Z |3b|: might also want to add a with-open-stream to make sure it gets closed, though not sure it matters too much for an in-memory stream
2015-05-29T12:33:13Z loz: |3b|: that did the job! thanks )
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2015-05-29T12:43:57Z dim: sbcl mmap: wanted 1044480 bytes at 0x20000000, actually mapped at 0x311c9422f000 ensure_space: failed to validate 1044480 bytes at 0x20000000
2015-05-29T12:44:00Z dim: rings any bell?
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2015-05-29T12:46:15Z |3b|: dim: what OS? possibly some lib loaded where sbcl didn't expect it, or it is somehow misconfigured for the particular OS
2015-05-29T12:46:24Z dim: debian
2015-05-29T12:46:34Z White_Flame: google hit: http://wiki.dreamhost.com/SBCL
2015-05-29T12:46:40Z dim: currently reading https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=474402
2015-05-29T12:47:29Z White_Flame: you didn't get "Cannot allocate memory", though, you got "actually mapped at ..."
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2015-05-29T12:48:28Z dim: yeah
2015-05-29T12:48:39Z White_Flame: it's likely something about limits regarding MAP_FIXED memory
2015-05-29T12:49:08Z White_Flame: is this on startup, or after you've been running?
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2015-05-29T12:50:22Z White_Flame: I would recommend dropping a line in #sbcl, lest it get lost in here
2015-05-29T12:50:44Z dim: sbcl startup
2015-05-29T12:51:08Z dim: even with the compiled version from http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html
2015-05-29T12:51:14Z White_Flame: under any sort of virtualization?
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2015-05-29T12:52:52Z |3b|: does it just exit after that or drop to ldb?
2015-05-29T12:52:59Z dim: exit
2015-05-29T12:53:38Z dim: -v: address space (kb)         unlimited
2015-05-29T12:53:56Z |3b|: hmm, maybe try running it under gdb and see if the process stays around, then look at /proc/<pid-of-sbcl>/maps and see what is mapped at 0x20000000
2015-05-29T12:54:00Z dim: oh wait. 3.14.32-xxxx-grs-ipv6-64
2015-05-29T12:54:06Z dim: grs is grsecurity right?
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2015-05-29T12:54:28Z dim: I guess there's some random stack protection going on
2015-05-29T12:54:53Z |3b|: that's another possibility, if it ignored mmap addresses completely
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2015-05-29T13:02:38Z |3b|: looks like adding MAP_FIXED would be bad bad, since that would just overwrite whatever was there and probably break at some random future time rather than failing cleanly
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2015-05-29T13:03:18Z |3b|: better to figure out what is in the way and get rid of it reconfigure sbcl to avoid it, or if the problem is security stuff, figure out how to disable it for sbcl
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2015-05-29T13:04:16Z dim: yeah, I'm trying that (found paxctl -p -e -m -r -x -s command, but paxctl is absent on this server, might be something else entirely)
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2015-05-29T13:04:44Z |3b|: (or longer term, figure out how to make sbcl not care where things are mapped, which is probably a moderately large task)
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2015-05-29T13:07:11Z |3b|: might also be a chpax utility that can do same thing
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2015-05-29T13:08:09Z dim: customer's sysadmin is looking into deactivating
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2015-05-29T13:08:59Z fe[nl]ix: wait, this is for pgloader ?
2015-05-29T13:09:17Z dim: nope
2015-05-29T13:09:32Z dim: custom solution for a customer for a custom problem
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2015-05-29T13:09:59Z dim: it still is using sbcl and save-lisp-and-die via buildapp tho
2015-05-29T13:10:05Z dim: about the same build system
2015-05-29T13:10:13Z dim: here the bare sbcl refuses to start, so...
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2015-05-29T13:13:03Z Xach: that could be a problem
2015-05-29T13:14:05Z dim: understatements seem so natural to english speakers ;-)
2015-05-29T13:14:27Z splittist: I guess it's too late for them to install windows...
2015-05-29T13:15:20Z dim: would that help me? I don't think so...
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2015-05-29T13:16:58Z Shinmera: Xach: How far from a new dist release are we?
2015-05-29T13:17:09Z Xach: Shinmera: 1 week
2015-05-29T13:17:26Z Shinmera: Ok, that leaves me enough time to test all this.
2015-05-29T13:18:28Z Shinmera is making big architectural changes to Qtools to organise everything better
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2015-05-29T14:38:05Z failproofshark: hello
2015-05-29T14:38:30Z whiteline: hi
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2015-05-29T14:47:07Z kami: Hello failproofshark
2015-05-29T14:48:48Z drmeister: A "designator for a list of package designators" can be a string:  "FOO"  or a list of strings: (list "FOO") ) among other things - correct?
2015-05-29T14:49:29Z Shinmera: From where is that?
2015-05-29T14:51:10Z nyef: Shinmera: Looks like USE-PACKAGE.
2015-05-29T14:51:25Z Shinmera: clhs glossary/package designator
2015-05-29T14:51:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_p.htm#package_designator
2015-05-29T14:51:50Z Shinmera: ^anyway, a package designator is just a string designator (anything that can be used with STRING).
2015-05-29T14:52:03Z nyef: Right, the question is more about the list designator.
2015-05-29T14:52:11Z drmeister: Yes, USE-PACKAGE or UNUSE-PACKAGE
2015-05-29T14:53:18Z Shinmera: I don't see what's there to question here, it says explicitly a list of package designators, and what a package designator is is quite clear too.
2015-05-29T14:53:24Z nyef: Ah, the glossary helps here, defining both "package designator" and "list designator".
2015-05-29T14:53:38Z drmeister: Right - it's the list designator.  I interpret the CLHS as saying that both of these are valid:  (use-package "FOO") and (use-package (list "FOO"))
2015-05-29T14:53:46Z nyef: It's fairly obvious which way they stack.
2015-05-29T14:54:02Z nyef: clhs list designator
2015-05-29T14:54:04Z nyef: Hrm.
2015-05-29T14:54:11Z Shinmera: clhs glossary/list designator
2015-05-29T14:54:11Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_l.htm#list_designator
2015-05-29T14:54:16Z nyef: Ah!
2015-05-29T14:54:21Z nyef: Thank you.
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2015-05-29T14:55:06Z oGMo: drmeister: you saw my trivial-utf-8 message?
2015-05-29T14:55:14Z drmeister: So, just to be absolutely clear:    (use-package "FOO") is valid.
2015-05-29T14:55:20Z oGMo: (not literal /msg)
2015-05-29T14:55:25Z nyef: Certainly seems to be, yes.
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2015-05-29T14:56:23Z drmeister: oGMo: Yes - but I didn't understand the consequences and then I got distracted by a bug in clasp with external/internal symbols in packages not being set up properly by the reader.
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2015-05-29T14:57:15Z oGMo: drmeister: in short, since you're just decoding what you're encoding, you should have no trouble
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2015-05-29T14:57:27Z drmeister: I see.
2015-05-29T14:58:10Z oGMo: if you error on code-char >127 or try and encode things >127 you _may_ end up with issues
2015-05-29T14:59:02Z drmeister: I'll have more to ask about it in a day or so.   I started adding encode/decode functionality to my chemistry C++ classes.
2015-05-29T14:59:03Z oGMo: otherwise ascii-range is compatible with utf-8 by design
2015-05-29T14:59:12Z oGMo: k
2015-05-29T14:59:44Z drmeister: The idea is encode generates an a-list for an object that decode can use to regenerate the object - right?
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2015-05-29T15:00:38Z oGMo: drmeister: right
2015-05-29T15:02:00Z drmeister: Oh yeah, then I ran into the problem that trivial-garbage doesn't support Clasp so I contacted Luis (the author) and added support for Clasp. But then I need to figure out how to support finalizers in Clasp...  Pretty soon I'll have another naked Yak in my backyard.
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2015-05-29T15:03:11Z oGMo: drmeister: ergh
2015-05-29T15:03:23Z drmeister: Welcome to my world
2015-05-29T15:07:06Z Shinmera: Why are finalizers such a problem? No support from Boehm/MPS?
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2015-05-29T15:09:30Z drmeister: They aren't necessarily a problem.  I just have to clear my brain's cache and dive into how to expose the garbage collector's finalizer capabilities (MPS has them and I presume Boehm has them because ECL exposes them) to Common Lisp.
2015-05-29T15:09:58Z Shinmera: Right.
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2015-05-29T15:11:42Z luis: drmeister: heh. If you decide that finalizers are not a priority for you, I'd be happy to accept a patch for trivial-garbage where the finalizer bits simply throw a runtime error
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2015-05-29T15:19:48Z [TROLL]: LISP IS CRAP
2015-05-29T15:19:51Z [TROLL]: niggers
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2015-05-29T15:20:21Z [TROLL]: FUCK LISP PIECE OF SHIT
2015-05-29T15:20:22Z [TROLL]: :D
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2015-05-29T15:20:37Z theos: atleast make an effort to disguise your name. i am offended
2015-05-29T15:21:02Z [TROLL]: FUCK YALL
2015-05-29T15:21:04Z [TROLL]: LOSERS
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2015-05-29T15:24:14Z LiamH: luis: Thanks for CFFI release. Will there be a 1.0 in June?
2015-05-29T15:26:45Z Shinmera: wyan: I still haven't been able to actually reproduce your problem as I don't own a mac system. However, I might have possibly maybe discovered what could have caused your issue, and fixed Qtools. It'd be great if you could try the current qtools from git.
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2015-05-29T15:32:51Z phf: is there a portable library that sets up pprint dispatch tables for correct code formatting (similar to sb-pretty, but available for other lisps)?
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2015-05-29T15:36:39Z fe[nl]ix: phf: you mean Emacs ?
2015-05-29T15:37:26Z phf: :)
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2015-05-29T15:41:54Z phf: doing slime-expand pretty prints the form, but i thought that happens on elisp side. does swank actually uses a custom pprint dispatch table?
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2015-05-29T16:02:32Z pjb: Shinmera: you're wrong. A package designator is not "just" a string designator.
2015-05-29T16:03:07Z pjb: Shinmera: packages are themselves package designators.
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2015-05-29T16:30:20Z luis: LiamH: heh, dunno. Do you think there should be one?
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2015-05-29T16:51:20Z LiamH: luis: Yes, but the date was just because it's the 10th anniversary of CFFI.
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2015-05-29T18:05:37Z luis: LiamH: yes, yes, I remember. :)
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2015-05-29T18:11:18Z [TROLL]: FUCFK LISP
2015-05-29T18:11:21Z [TROLL]: MADAFAKAZ
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2015-05-29T18:13:30Z gniourf: no
2015-05-29T18:13:37Z White_Flame: isn't school out by now, thus those forced to learn a Lisp in class should be over it by now?
2015-05-29T18:13:40Z gniourf: (FUCK LISP)
2015-05-29T18:13:54Z gniourf: this doesn't even know proper syntax
2015-05-29T18:14:16Z White_Flame: nor spelling
2015-05-29T18:14:18Z gniourf: and proper spelling
2015-05-29T18:14:19Z gniourf: true
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2015-05-29T18:25:25Z jackdaniel: maybe he rebinded #\F to #\( and #\S, #\P to #\) in read-table, so it is in fact (UC (K LI)) ?
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2015-05-29T18:35:25Z gniourf: that would make more sense
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2015-05-29T18:44:44Z jaykru: hey everyone
2015-05-29T18:45:11Z jaykru: does anyone know of a good, up-to-date Common Lisp twitter library?
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2015-05-29T18:45:41Z p_l: \whois [TROLL]
2015-05-29T18:45:52Z eudoxia: jaykru: chirp
2015-05-29T18:47:04Z jaykru: ooh. Never would've found this on my own, thank you :)
2015-05-29T18:47:41Z Shinmera: http://shinmera.github.io/chirp/
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2015-05-29T18:53:46Z Shinmera: I did at least enter it into CLIKI for what that's worth
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2015-05-29T19:18:29Z jaykru: Shinmera: Chirp is really nice. Well done!
2015-05-29T19:19:41Z Shinmera: jaykru: Thank you. Let me know if anything breaks.
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2015-05-29T19:20:30Z akkad: is there a hunchentoot:real-remote-addr equivalent for ipv6?
2015-05-29T19:20:36Z jaykru: Shinmera: haha. I sure will. You should submit it to the lisp subreddit; really deserves more exposure :)
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2015-05-29T19:21:09Z Shinmera: jaykru: I don't really use reddit.
2015-05-29T19:21:34Z jaykru: you mind if I do then?
2015-05-29T19:21:51Z Shinmera: Go ahead if you want.
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2015-05-29T19:45:43Z Xach: so much karma!
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2015-05-29T19:51:26Z DrWat: Xach++
2015-05-29T19:52:39Z kristof: wrong channel
2015-05-29T19:52:41Z jackdaniel: (incf 'Xach)
2015-05-29T19:52:45Z kristof: ^
2015-05-29T19:52:52Z jaykru: omg
2015-05-29T19:55:23Z |3b|: jackdaniel: can't increment symbols
2015-05-29T19:55:34Z DrWat: wrong channel++
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2015-05-29T19:56:27Z jackdaniel: |3b|: yeah, noticed after hitting return, counted nobody will notice ;p
2015-05-29T19:57:12Z nyef: Well, you could implementation-define a QUOTE place.
2015-05-29T19:59:47Z Shinmera: Alternatively, (set-macro-character #\' (lambda (stream char) (read stream T NIL T)))
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2015-05-29T22:01:38Z trinque: would anyone know the guest username/password (if any) for the git repositories on common-lisp.net?
2015-05-29T22:02:45Z pjb: trinque: you would need to have an account there.  You'd have to ask an administrator.
2015-05-29T22:03:26Z trinque: pjb: ah ok; would you know where I'd inquire?
2015-05-29T22:03:36Z trinque: I'm interested in the work here: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/suave/
2015-05-29T22:03:50Z pjb: https://mailman.common-lisp.net/listinfo/clo-devel
2015-05-29T22:03:54Z skrue: what's the standard on doing gui programming on mac when you want the native look?
2015-05-29T22:04:00Z skrue: (using common lisp)
2015-05-29T22:04:12Z trinque: skrue: I've had a decent experience with commonqt if that's close enough to native for you
2015-05-29T22:04:39Z pjb: skrue: on MacOSX you can use Cocoa directly with CCL.
2015-05-29T22:04:40Z trinque: pjb: thank you
2015-05-29T22:04:49Z pjb: skrue: get Clozure CL.app from the Appstore.
2015-05-29T22:05:05Z skrue: oh, really -- any chance with sbcl?
2015-05-29T22:05:11Z skrue: i will
2015-05-29T22:05:23Z pjb: Yes, but with sbcl, you will have to work harder for the ffi to Cocoa.
2015-05-29T22:05:39Z skrue: right. is it a lot of "pain"?
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2015-05-29T22:13:03Z pjb: skrue: if you only target apple objective-c, then it won't be too hard.  If you want to target also GNU objective-c (version 1 and version 2) and cocotron (objective-c on MS-Windows), then it will be harder.
2015-05-29T22:13:22Z Xach: skrue: capi is easier. people have written commercial gui apps for sale in capi.
2015-05-29T22:13:56Z pjb: skrue: the objc bridge in ccl is not portable (it uses ccl specific extensions). I started to clean it up, but I'm not closed to finished.
2015-05-29T22:14:14Z pjb: Xach: does capi run on sbcl?
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2015-05-29T22:17:56Z skrue: ok, thanks
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2015-05-29T22:21:41Z Xach: pjb: no
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2015-05-29T22:53:10Z skrue: so CCL is the app store is hemlock?
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2015-05-29T22:55:55Z akkad: hemlock is in it iirc.
2015-05-29T22:56:06Z akkad: afaik it's another interface.
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2015-05-29T22:58:14Z Xach: CCL in the app store uses a modified Hemlock
2015-05-29T22:58:26Z pjb: skrue: hemlock is indeed integrated in the cocoa IDE of ccl.
2015-05-29T22:58:46Z pjb: You can get it from cli ccl with (require :cocoa)
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2015-05-29T22:59:22Z skrue: how tied is it to the mac platform -- can i develop for linux/windows on it as easily as with sbcl+slime+emacs?
2015-05-29T23:00:43Z pjb: Yes. Only on linux and ms-windows, you don't have Cocoa.
2015-05-29T23:01:55Z skrue: great, thanks. ill try it out
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2015-05-29T23:05:34Z Xach: skrue: can you develop linux and windows gui programs with ccl's cocoa system?
2015-05-29T23:05:36Z Xach: skrue: no.
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2015-05-29T23:05:40Z pjb: There's also an old objective-c bridge to work with GNUstep, and cocotron, but since GNU Objective-C runtime has changed from version 1 to 2, it's outdated.
2015-05-29T23:05:59Z Xach: I don't think cocotron works now either.
2015-05-29T23:06:11Z pjb: Xach: you can write Linux and MS-Windows openstep programs.
2015-05-29T23:06:16Z pjb: Using GNUstep.
2015-05-29T23:06:31Z pjb: But indeed, work would be required to make everything works nicely.
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2015-05-30T03:41:53Z darryn: Hello
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2015-05-30T03:49:18Z theos: hi
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2015-05-30T05:01:46Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-05-30T05:01:59Z theos: Good morning
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2015-05-30T05:42:18Z Femdingo: Stupid question, if I may.  I've used a couple of spreadsheet programs; each had a its own scripting language: are these scripters what in the Lisp universe are called "DSLs"?
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2015-05-30T05:44:12Z beach: Femdingo: Maybe.
2015-05-30T05:44:19Z beach: The term DSL is not Lisp-specific.
2015-05-30T05:44:55Z beach: Femdingo: Sometimes, software like that uses a general-purpose language like Python.  Then it is not a DSL.
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2015-05-30T05:45:34Z Femdingo: beach: no; these were peculiar scripting langs., and different from each other.
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2015-05-30T05:46:50Z beach: There is a book about DSLs that I can recommend: http://martinfowler.com/books/dsl.html
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2015-05-30T05:47:29Z theos: Femdingo you can turn CL into any language
2015-05-30T05:47:31Z beach: The author acknowledges not knowing much about Lisp, which is strange for someone who wrote a book on DSLs.
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2015-05-30T05:47:57Z theos: thats why nobody heard of him :P
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2015-05-30T05:48:14Z beach: theos: On the contrary, this author is fairly famous.
2015-05-30T05:48:37Z Femdingo: beach: thanks
2015-05-30T05:49:13Z theos: beach maybe its just me then
2015-05-30T05:49:15Z beach: theos: It rather shows that you don't need very deep knowledge in order to get a book published.
2015-05-30T05:49:38Z beach: http://www.martinfowler.com/
2015-05-30T05:50:27Z theos: beach i am aware of that truth. its true for all professions. you dont need to know much about anything to be successful in it
2015-05-30T05:50:27Z beach: Femdingo: What is the reason for your question?
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2015-05-30T05:52:33Z Femdingo: beach: just trying to find out what DSLs are when it is said that Lisp is capable of making them.
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2015-05-30T05:53:37Z beach: Femdingo: I see.  Common Lisp is particularly suited to creating DSLs because you can automatically inherit all of the host language, so that you only need to write the part that is specific to the DSL.
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2015-05-30T05:54:19Z theos: Femdingo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FlHq_iiDW0
2015-05-30T05:54:27Z Femdingo: theos: thanks
2015-05-30T05:54:49Z beach: Femdingo: There is this prevailing idea that one should write software in a static language that is known to generate fast code, such as C++.  Then, since there is a need for scripting (which requires a dynamic language), they typically add a slow language that comes with an interpreter.  Now they have several problems, because people start writing programs using this slow scripting language.
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2015-05-30T05:55:28Z beach: Femdingo: A better idea would be to write the entire thing in Common Lisp.  Then they could compile the scripting part to native code, just like the software itself.
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2015-05-30T05:56:17Z beach: Femdingo: One day, I will write a book about this crazy mainstream practice.
2015-05-30T05:56:50Z Femdingo: beach: would the resultant DSL look like an app specific scripting language?
2015-05-30T05:57:28Z beach: Femdingo: It depends on your requirement and how much work you are willing to put in.
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2015-05-30T05:58:25Z beach: Femdingo: I once wrote a small DSL that looks very much like what is used for Metafont paths.
2015-05-30T05:59:31Z beach: Femdingo: The easiest way is to keep the Common Lisp S-expression syntax, and just add special operators.
2015-05-30T06:00:09Z beach: Then it is "just" a matter of writing Common Lisp macros that implement the new operators.
2015-05-30T06:01:55Z Femdingo: beach: will users have to learn S-exp syntax in order to write their macros in the DSL?
2015-05-30T06:02:07Z beach: If you keep that syntax, yes.
2015-05-30T06:02:38Z beach: It takes 5 seconds to learn: ( <operator> <arguments> )
2015-05-30T06:02:39Z beach: done
2015-05-30T06:03:10Z beach: The users are usually smart enough for that.
2015-05-30T06:03:19Z Femdingo: but in RPN, no?  they will hang me from the nearest tree.
2015-05-30T06:03:33Z Femdingo: lol
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2015-05-30T06:04:44Z beach: Here is an example, in case you happen to know Metafont: (mf p0 -- p1 ++ right p2 ++ up p3 ++ left p4 ++ up p5 ++ right p6 ++ p7 -- p8 ++ left p9 ++ down p10 ++ right p11 ++ down p12 ++ left p13 ++ cycle)
2015-05-30T06:05:10Z Femdingo: don't know Metafont
2015-05-30T06:05:13Z beach: Except for the parentheses, it is pretty much the same.
2015-05-30T06:06:04Z beach: Why did you mention RPN?
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2015-05-30T06:07:04Z Femdingo: because of the (<op> <args>) syntax
2015-05-30T06:07:14Z beach: That would be PN, not RPN.
2015-05-30T06:07:31Z beach: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_notation
2015-05-30T06:07:38Z Femdingo: one of those
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2015-05-30T06:08:17Z beach: Here is #lisp, we value precision.
2015-05-30T06:09:32Z beach: Now, if you want to work a bit harder, you can of course write a parser for any syntax your users will accept.
2015-05-30T06:09:51Z beach: That's largely what Fowler's book is about.
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2015-05-30T06:10:08Z beach: And largely something that Common Lisp programmers don't care much about.
2015-05-30T06:10:10Z Femdingo: meaning, that my intended users do not take pleasure in doing arithmetic, let alone acrobatics with experts' notation.
2015-05-30T06:10:35Z Bike: it's not expert, you just rearrange it a bit
2015-05-30T06:11:01Z Bike: people have all these complaints and all i hear is "well i WANTED to learn japanese, but they put verbs on the end? they some kinda super geniuses? i can't manage that"
2015-05-30T06:11:19Z beach: Heh!  I like it.
2015-05-30T06:11:21Z Femdingo: Bike: you and I know it's a piece of cake.  My users go ballistic if the "+" sign is not between two numbers.  lol
2015-05-30T06:11:34Z Bike: don't treat your users like idiot children
2015-05-30T06:11:56Z Femdingo: Bike: i don't.  They're just set in their ways.
2015-05-30T06:12:21Z beach: I recommend you change users.
2015-05-30T06:12:30Z Femdingo: lol
2015-05-30T06:12:36Z Bike: they probably aren't that intransigent
2015-05-30T06:14:37Z Femdingo: Rearrangements of syntaxes, exceptions to rules . . . such variations add up.  There's a point users run out of patience.
2015-05-30T06:16:34Z Bike: there are lots of lispy scripting languages, like say nyquist, which is in audacity
2015-05-30T06:16:50Z Bike: i really don't see users being as stupid as you seem to believe
2015-05-30T06:17:52Z Femdingo: This they will tolerate, they're used to it: "<cmd> <options> <target file>".  Now, if there are variations on the form "<options>" can take, or the order in which they're written . . . then it becomes frustrating to them.
2015-05-30T06:18:41Z Femdingo: Bike: it's not that they're stupid; they just don't have the patience.
2015-05-30T06:19:21Z Bike: if they're leet enough to do text commands, they're probably used to dd, which they've tolerated for decades. it's fine.
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2015-05-30T06:21:09Z Femdingo: "dd"?  the Linux "dd" command?  No, you're thinking computer programming users; that's not the case here.
2015-05-30T06:21:33Z Bike: you said "cmd options target", that's like the nix norm.
2015-05-30T06:22:40Z Femdingo: Bike: yes, but in that there can be many variations---and that's when it gets too complicated for them.
2015-05-30T06:23:09Z Bike: Says who? based on what? Scripting utilities using lisp or whatever else actually exist, and people use them.
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2015-05-30T06:24:03Z Femdingo: Says ME, based on my interaction with my users.
2015-05-30T06:24:26Z Femdingo: Bike: you know my users better than I do?
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2015-05-30T06:25:02Z Bike: my general human experience makes it difficult for me to believe that you're going to get strenuous objections to things that already exist, i suppose.
2015-05-30T06:25:04Z Shinmera: Oh dear what did I wake up to today
2015-05-30T06:25:16Z Bike: lisp being too hard
2015-05-30T06:25:25Z Shinmera: That said, good morning, #lisp
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2015-05-30T06:28:43Z Femdingo: Bike: you're talking hypotheticals; I'm talking the complaints i hear from my users.
2015-05-30T06:28:55Z Bike: audacity isn't hypothetical
2015-05-30T06:29:22Z Femdingo: Audacity, the audio processor?
2015-05-30T06:29:26Z Bike: well, whatever, i shouldn't be so argumentative
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2015-05-30T06:29:47Z Bike: if you want, you can write a script parser to take whatever syntax
2015-05-30T06:29:51Z Bike: like beach said
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2015-05-30T06:33:24Z Femdingo: Bike: you're talking as though quirks in syntaxes are never an obstacle to using a language.  Truth is, people complain vehemently about such things.  Distaste for Lisp ")))))" profusion of parens is legendary---and I'm not knocking Lisp; i'm merely pointing out the way some programmers react to it.
2015-05-30T06:34:16Z Bike: yes, and as far as i can tell that dislike is exaggerated even by themselves.
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2015-05-30T06:36:42Z Shinmera: I'd be interested in knowing if AutoCAD/AutoLISP ever got those kinds of complaints.
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2015-05-30T06:37:50Z Femdingo: Another example: the flaming complaints some programmers have when they run into peculiar syntax of Bash.  Today I smile at those reactions, because I know the answer to this or that quirk of Bash.
2015-05-30T06:39:00Z Bike: you don't need to prove to me that people have strong opinions about syntax. they're just ridiculous opinions, and there's no point in catering to them when a few minutes of dealing with them will make people realize it's no big deal.
2015-05-30T06:39:12Z Shinmera: People are going to complain at any kind of change no matter what it is. The only thing that matters is whether they're going to keep on complaining in the long run, or realise the benefits.
2015-05-30T06:39:52Z Bike: that japanese thing wasn't a very far analogy, it's like i tell you this language is good for poetry but has VSO word order and you say, no, people won't learn that language
2015-05-30T06:40:21Z Femdingo: I don't mind learning Lisp, I'm excited about learning it.  I just don't want to ask my users to learn it.
2015-05-30T06:40:36Z Bike: and i'm somehow supposed to take this as a serious complaint, instead of a ridiculous thing to educate people past
2015-05-30T06:41:02Z Bike: well, just write a weird parser then.
2015-05-30T06:42:31Z Femdingo: Wasn't the motivation to write Smalltalk to make it as easy as child's play to write programs?  Easy syntax in other words.
2015-05-30T06:42:44Z Shinmera: Also, you can easily enough write a macro that'll give you prefix, infix, suffix, whatever-fix syntax you want.
2015-05-30T06:42:50Z Shinmera: If that really were a problem.
2015-05-30T06:43:08Z Bike: Smalltalk was about way more than easy syntax.
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2015-05-30T06:44:37Z Bike: http://www.mprove.de/diplom/gui/kay72.html it's pretty good reading, but nothing much to do with this
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2015-05-30T06:45:09Z Bike: the textual syntax also isn't what i'd call easy, exactly, it has binary operators like + and regular "messages" but they're both actual "messages", and it ended up not using PEMDAS order of operations cos of that.
2015-05-30T06:45:39Z Bike: from an educational standpoint, presumably kay was okay with this because he was aware that pemdas was an elementary school convention rather than anything inherently simple
2015-05-30T06:47:31Z Bike: Does anyone remember a while ago when there was this internet meme about a poorly written mathematical expression, and people got into arguments about what operator precedence to use because they resulted in different answers?
2015-05-30T06:47:52Z Bike: I remember telling someone that it wasn't important and they said no, they wanted to do mathematics, and this was what mathematicians do! And then I felt sad.
2015-05-30T06:48:32Z Shinmera: Can't say I heard of that.
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2015-05-30T06:49:52Z Femdingo: I suppose the tradeoff of an easy syntax is the same one that GUIs make: that for a limited level of operations the user will be satisfied with a point-and-click interface . . . but anything more complex, then the GUI just doesn't have the mechanisms.
2015-05-30T06:50:36Z beach: I don't think "easy" is the right word, as Bike said.
2015-05-30T06:50:42Z beach: More like "familiar".
2015-05-30T06:50:45Z Shinmera: Lisp has a very easy syntax imo and it works great all the way.
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2015-05-30T06:51:15Z khon: Hi! in asdf3 can I hook into the determination of whether or not a file is to be compiled?
2015-05-30T06:51:29Z Shinmera: khon: When or how would you like to determine that?
2015-05-30T06:51:38Z Shinmera: khon: Or what exactly do you want to do?
2015-05-30T06:52:42Z Femdingo: sure, "familiar" is a good concept.  And I'm thinking of a DSL that might emerge from an app.  I'm not questioning Lisp itself; on the contrary, I'm trying to avail myself of Lisp ... to achieve an easy-syntax DSL.
2015-05-30T06:53:02Z Shinmera: There's the easy again.
2015-05-30T06:53:04Z beach: Femdingo: You need to write a parser, then.
2015-05-30T06:53:33Z beach: Femdingo: There are many hints in the book by Fowler.
2015-05-30T06:53:42Z Femdingo: Shimmers: sorry, "familiar".
2015-05-30T06:54:20Z Femdingo: beach: i suppose Lisp will give me good facilities to write a parser?
2015-05-30T06:54:51Z khon: I have dependencies that I would like to resolve using my own function, is :depends-on extensible?
2015-05-30T06:54:54Z beach: Femdingo: I suppose so.  I haven't done it for a while.  There are several libraries available.
2015-05-30T06:55:00Z Femdingo: Shimmera: my autocomplete fails on your nick.
2015-05-30T06:55:12Z Shinmera: khon: Resolve how?
2015-05-30T06:55:21Z Shinmera: khon: And no, it unfortunately isn't.
2015-05-30T06:55:35Z Shinmera: Femdingo: Because you're typing it wrong
2015-05-30T06:55:52Z beach: Femdingo: The main advantage of a dynamic language like Lisp is that you don't need to write code for things like arithmetic.
2015-05-30T06:56:43Z beach: Femdingo: In a typical DSL, you will find code such as "if (op == "+") result = arg1 + arg2"
2015-05-30T06:57:15Z beach: Femdingo: If you use a dynamic language like Common Lisp you can just "steal" these operators from the host language.
2015-05-30T06:58:04Z Femdingo: beach: good case.  Now, if I use Lisp to write a calculator your way, will I have to tell my users they'll have to learn Lisp syntax in order to use the calculator?
2015-05-30T06:58:29Z beach: Femdingo: Furthermore, a typical DSL is interpreted because it is easier, so it becomes slow.  If you use Common Lisp you can compile your DSL to native code on the fly.
2015-05-30T06:58:57Z Femdingo: beach: yes, that is a plus.
2015-05-30T06:59:13Z khon: Dependency is: File B can only be compiled if the compiler has previously compiled file A. That is, I'm relying on side-effects from the compilation of file A. Thus when I change file B but not A, asdf3 will fasl-load file A, and compile file B which then wont work.
2015-05-30T06:59:20Z beach: Femdingo: As you have already been told, if you write a parser, you can use whatever syntax you like.
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2015-05-30T06:59:35Z Femdingo: beach: ok
2015-05-30T06:59:57Z Shinmera: khon: Sounds like you should avoid compile time side-effects more than trying to bust the build system.
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2015-05-30T07:00:10Z Femdingo: beach: but you think it's superfluous to write a parser, eh?
2015-05-30T07:00:41Z Femdingo: beach: in Lisp, that is.
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2015-05-30T07:01:32Z Bike: inventing a DSL with some binary syntax is superfluous
2015-05-30T07:01:39Z beach: Femdingo: You told us your users won't accept Lisp syntax.  Then it is not superfluous.
2015-05-30T07:01:43Z Bike: writing parsers makes perfect sense, and is done all the time
2015-05-30T07:01:45Z khon: Shinmera: yes the long resolution is to separate the system into a compiler package, but I'm looking for a short-time resolution which takes me incrementially towards the longer one.
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2015-05-30T07:02:23Z Femdingo: Bike: even in Lisp programs?
2015-05-30T07:02:46Z Femdingo: Lisp apps, that is.
2015-05-30T07:03:03Z Bike: http://www.cliki.net/parser%20generator look, and behold!
2015-05-30T07:03:16Z Femdingo: Bike: =)  thanks
2015-05-30T07:03:21Z beach: Femdingo: I recently wrote a parser for Common Lisp LOOP that can parse LOOP clauses such as (loop for x being each exported-symbol of ...)
2015-05-30T07:03:51Z Femdingo: beach: fabulous
2015-05-30T07:04:30Z beach: I used a technique called combinatory parsing.  It is really simple and you can obtain very modular parsers that way.
2015-05-30T07:04:44Z beach: There is a Common Lisp library for writing such parsers.
2015-05-30T07:05:10Z Femdingo: i'll look into it when i get there.
2015-05-30T07:05:29Z beach: Right.  That level of detail is probably not important at this point.
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2015-05-30T07:05:42Z beach: Femdingo: What is it that you plan to write?
2015-05-30T07:08:00Z Femdingo: a command line user ifx
2015-05-30T07:09:02Z beach: minion: What does IFX stand for?
2015-05-30T07:09:03Z minion: Interparoxysmal Footpath Xylometer
2015-05-30T07:09:15Z Femdingo: interface
2015-05-30T07:09:40Z Femdingo: for an accounting system
2015-05-30T07:09:45Z beach: I see.
2015-05-30T07:10:38Z beach: For double-entry bookkeeping?
2015-05-30T07:11:17Z Femdingo: yes, and reporting, etc
2015-05-30T07:11:34Z beach: Common Lisp is perfect for that.  I wrote such a system once.
2015-05-30T07:11:49Z beach: But it was only for my own use, so it wasn't very polished.
2015-05-30T07:12:12Z Femdingo: this is in-house only
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2015-05-30T07:13:13Z Femdingo: i know there's QuickBooks and a hundred other apps out there . . . nonetheless ...
2015-05-30T07:13:23Z beach: Yeah, I know what you mean.
2015-05-30T07:13:41Z beach: How many transactions per day?
2015-05-30T07:14:34Z Femdingo: 100, 200?
2015-05-30T07:14:39Z Femdingo: nothing huge
2015-05-30T07:14:41Z beach: Beautiful!
2015-05-30T07:15:01Z beach: Then you don't even have to store the account balance.  You can recompute it from the transactions on the fly.
2015-05-30T07:15:11Z beach: Very simple system indeed.  Just like mine.
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2015-05-30T07:16:44Z beach: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/accounting-system.html
2015-05-30T07:16:57Z Femdingo: anywooo ... office tomorrow . . . thanks again.
2015-05-30T07:17:07Z beach: Anytime.
2015-05-30T07:17:28Z Femdingo: 'nite
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2015-05-30T07:21:12Z Xof: beach: are you familiar with ledger, John Wiegley's file format / command-line tool?
2015-05-30T07:21:29Z beach: No.
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2015-05-30T07:25:38Z beach: Emacs Lisp, huh?
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2015-05-30T09:08:02Z oleo__: morning
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2015-05-30T09:14:15Z theos: hey oleo
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2015-05-30T09:57:12Z rubix: hi. what are the popular lisps these days (or years)?
2015-05-30T09:57:45Z Shinmera: This channel likes Common Lisp.
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2015-05-30T09:57:59Z Shinmera: Are you asking about an implementation of Common Lisp, or about lisp dialects?
2015-05-30T09:58:13Z rubix: is there a channel for all dialects?
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2015-05-30T09:58:45Z rubix: I'm asking about dialects.
2015-05-30T09:59:02Z Shinmera: ##lisp
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2015-05-30T10:01:16Z rubix: it doesn't seem to be very crowded
2015-05-30T10:01:52Z Shinmera: It hasn't been around for too long.
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2015-05-30T10:02:35Z rubix: what about implementations of common lisp? are there many?
2015-05-30T10:03:03Z Shinmera: There's quite a few
2015-05-30T10:03:16Z Shinmera: http://www.cliki.net/Common%20Lisp%20implementation
2015-05-30T10:03:44Z Shinmera should add Clasp to the list
2015-05-30T10:05:26Z rubix: how compatible are they among themselves?
2015-05-30T10:05:39Z Shinmera: They're Common Lisp implementations, so they should adhere to the standard.
2015-05-30T10:05:55Z Shinmera: If they don't, then there's a bug.
2015-05-30T10:06:27Z Shinmera: Nevertheless, the standard leaves a couple of things up to the implementations, and there's many things that aren't standardised, so there are significant differences, depending on what you want to do.
2015-05-30T10:07:49Z rubix: I suppose it could be measured by how much of a hell it is to create portable code.
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2015-05-30T10:08:15Z Shinmera: For most portability issues there's libraries that smoothen things over, so usually it isn't much of a problem.
2015-05-30T10:08:38Z Shinmera: (see uiop, bordeaux-threads, cffi, etc)
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2015-05-30T10:48:40Z Shinmera thinks the IRC page on cliki was long overdue for a rewrite
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2015-05-30T10:53:25Z ehu: Shinmera: you did?
2015-05-30T10:53:31Z ehu: (rewrite it)
2015-05-30T10:53:41Z Shinmera: Not entirely, but I changed it enough, yes.
2015-05-30T10:53:52Z Shinmera: (I don't know enough about all channels to rewrite it completely)
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2015-05-30T10:59:48Z Shinmera: Are there other implementation channels besides #embeddable-cl, #clasp, and #sbcl ?
2015-05-30T10:59:49Z ehu: ah. added abcl's channel.
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2015-05-30T10:59:56Z ehu: #abcl
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2015-05-30T11:00:07Z Shinmera: Ok, I'll add that as well then.
2015-05-30T11:00:11Z ehu: just did.
2015-05-30T11:00:17Z ehu: actually, Drew also registered #common-lisp too
2015-05-30T11:00:28Z Shinmera: Ok.
2015-05-30T11:00:40Z ehu: and there's #common-lisp.net which is about common-lisp.net maintenance
2015-05-30T11:00:52Z Shinmera: So many lisp channels!
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2015-05-30T11:01:42Z ehu: yup. more than people available to populate them.
2015-05-30T11:01:55Z Shinmera: Bah, humbug. We have bots for that.
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2015-05-30T12:14:03Z jackdaniel: hm, having method and eql specilizer - can I somehow specify :key for it?
2015-05-30T12:14:47Z nyef: You can't put specializers on &OPTIONAL or &KEY arguments, if that's what you're asking.
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2015-05-30T12:15:53Z jackdaniel: nah, I mean something like (defmethod foo ((bar (eql &xxx) :key #'car)) …) , so it will handle (foo '(&xxx 1 2 3))
2015-05-30T12:18:07Z |3b| usually just has a CONS method that calls a 2nd method with the car separate so it can dispatch on it
2015-05-30T12:18:51Z |3b|: (defmethod foo ((bar cons)) (foo2 (car bar) bar)) or whatever
2015-05-30T12:20:09Z jackdaniel: makes sense, thanks
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2015-05-30T13:23:12Z kami: Good afternoon.
2015-05-30T13:23:24Z beach: Hello kami.
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2015-05-30T13:26:14Z theos: :)
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2015-05-30T13:30:55Z pjb: Bike: the syntax of Smalltalk is far from simple.  3+4*2 -> 14 WTF?
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2015-05-30T13:31:24Z pjb: Bike: of course, here we all agree that the only simple syntax is that of lisp sexps :-)
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2015-05-30T13:32:14Z White_Flame: hmm, going by Rich Hickey's distinction of simple vs easy, I would say Smalltalk's is simpler
2015-05-30T13:32:22Z White_Flame: though harder to get right ;)
2015-05-30T13:33:02Z White_Flame: (at least for the numeric expression example)
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2015-05-30T13:38:52Z pjb: ehu: update http://cliki.net/IRC
2015-05-30T13:41:03Z pjb: White_Flame:  that said, I note that lisp too introduced + - * / instead of PLUS MINUS TIMES DIVIDE…
2015-05-30T13:41:18Z pjb: and ' instead of QUOTE :-(
2015-05-30T13:44:22Z kami: I sometimes see (defpackage #:name); what is the benefit of using sharp colon? Do I gain sth by not interning the symbol?
2015-05-30T13:44:46Z beach: Space in the KEYWORD package.
2015-05-30T13:45:26Z White_Flame: it's effectively a micro-optimization
2015-05-30T13:45:32Z kami: OK.
2015-05-30T13:45:50Z White_Flame: but it's semantically reasonable for a naming designator to use an uninterned symbol
2015-05-30T13:46:05Z White_Flame: because that symbol needs no persistence or identity in and of itself
2015-05-30T13:46:19Z White_Flame: it's basically just a case-appropriate version of "NAME"
2015-05-30T13:46:24Z beach: I see it as a software-engineering issue.  By not interning it, you are telling the maintainer of your code that the package is not important.
2015-05-30T13:47:27Z White_Flame: beach:  that's not something I've ever thought to infer
2015-05-30T13:47:49Z kami: beach: you mean that the /name/ of the package is not important or literally 'the package is not important'?
2015-05-30T13:48:32Z beach: That it is unimportant whether the symbol has a package at all.
2015-05-30T13:48:55Z White_Flame: ah
2015-05-30T13:48:59Z kami: I see.
2015-05-30T13:50:35Z pjb: If you want to micro-optimize space, my bet is that string take less space than uninterned symbols.
2015-05-30T13:50:57Z pjb: For the simple reason that the uninterned symbol is a symbol + has a string as name.
2015-05-30T13:51:06Z beach: Sounds plausible, since the symbol has a string for its name.
2015-05-30T13:51:08Z pjb: Therefore write (defpackage "NAME") instead.
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2015-05-30T13:51:28Z beach: But the purpose is not space optimization.
2015-05-30T13:51:49Z White_Flame: pjb: I often do, when I don't feel like pressing #: for whatever reason
2015-05-30T13:51:50Z pjb: I never use mlisp.
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2015-05-30T13:52:14Z pjb: (AFAIK, it's the only implementation on which that would matter, if anybody used lowercase package names).
2015-05-30T13:53:18Z pjb: Let's notice that there are a few packages in quicklisp that have mixed case, then you'd have to use strings (or escaped symbols) for them.
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2015-05-30T14:02:43Z |3b|: pjb: i think clisp has a "modern mode" too, not sure if it is identical to mlisp or not
2015-05-30T14:04:07Z pjb: No it's different.
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2015-05-30T14:04:23Z nyef: Is "modern mode" basically "just" setting readtable-case to :downcase by default?
2015-05-30T14:04:28Z pjb: It's a per-package option, only for symbols.
2015-05-30T14:04:49Z pjb: LINUX:open or linux:open or LiNuX:open is read as |LINUX|:|open|.
2015-05-30T14:04:59Z pjb: nyef: :preserve
2015-05-30T14:05:01Z |3b|: nyef: also usually includes some lower-case version of CL packager
2015-05-30T14:05:05Z |3b|: *package
2015-05-30T14:05:18Z pjb: LINUX:O_RDWR is read as |LINUX|:|O_RDWR|.
2015-05-30T14:05:28Z nyef: ... Weird.
2015-05-30T14:05:51Z nyef: Probably breaks LOTS of old code.
2015-05-30T14:06:20Z nyef: There's some code out there that uses Initial-Caps-On-Some-Identifiers.
2015-05-30T14:06:25Z nyef: Inconsistently, no less.
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2015-05-30T14:06:55Z |3b|: yeah, code relying on case folding won't work on it
2015-05-30T14:07:12Z pjb: Well, how often do you do case folding on FFI symbols?
2015-05-30T14:07:50Z nyef: On the whole, I believe that I shall continue my current policy of not catering to modern mode at all.
2015-05-30T14:07:51Z |3b| usually either does manual or automated translation on FFI symbols, but case-preserving would be convenient for them
2015-05-30T14:08:44Z |3b|: or similarly for compiling to case-sensitive languages
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2015-05-30T14:10:17Z pjb: In the most dire cases, you can always do (eval-when (…) (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :preserve)) (DEFUN thing (x) (IF (F x) (f1 x) (f2 x 0))) …
2015-05-30T14:11:04Z bhyde: A few decades of muscle memory would like to known is there a recomended way to get slime's switch-to-lisp (aka C-c C-z) to switch to the repl rather than *inferior-lisp*, now that slime-repl is it's own thang.
2015-05-30T14:11:09Z bhyde: nyef: http://franz.com/support/tutorials/casemode-tutorial.htm
2015-05-30T14:11:31Z pjb: Well, you'd need to set the readtable first, to avoid leaking the readtable-case: (eval-when (…) (setf *readtable* (copy-readtable) (readtable-case *readtable*) :preserve))
2015-05-30T14:11:50Z pjb: bhyde: Try: C-h m
2015-05-30T14:12:11Z pjb: bhyde: also, you could rebind C-c C-z to avoid changing your muscle memory.
2015-05-30T14:12:39Z |3b|: C-c C-z switches to repl for me
2015-05-30T14:13:04Z |3b|: bound to slime-switch-to-output-buffer
2015-05-30T14:13:25Z bhyde: pjb - yes, rebinding my muscle memory is one option; but I can't find their init file
2015-05-30T14:14:17Z bhyde: good news is that I am a almost a decade into using slime-selector; so the traditional behavior is somewhat extinquished already
2015-05-30T14:14:25Z pjb: So: (add-hook 'lisp-mode (lambda () (local-set-key (kbd "C-c C-z") 'slime-switch-to-output-buffer)))
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2015-05-30T14:16:09Z bhyde: that tutorial on casemode is less than I'd expected, for example it doesn't prescribe the new-age technique of always writing (in-package #:damn-case-handing-to-el)
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2015-05-30T14:19:58Z bhyde: |3b| i wonder how you came to be so blessed.  an older slime?  a custom keybinding?  animal sacrifice?
2015-05-30T14:20:33Z |3b|: i'm using recent slime from quicklisp, looks like slime-repl.el binds it
2015-05-30T14:20:58Z |3b|: you are in a lisp buffer with slime mode active?
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2015-05-30T14:22:10Z bhyde: |3b| hm...
2015-05-30T14:22:42Z |3b|: C-h m  should list Slime in minor modes at top if so
2015-05-30T14:25:30Z |3b|: alternately, searching for C-c C-z in that or  C-h b  might show if something else is rebinding it
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2015-05-30T14:27:58Z |3b|: and if you expected to be in slime mode but aren't, i sometimes see that when paredit mode doesn't like the file (unbalanced parens or whatever) and errors, keeping other minor modes from being enabled as well
2015-05-30T14:28:53Z bhyde: my foo.lisp include Slime mode, which is good since a lot of functionality would be broken if it wasn't
2015-05-30T14:29:29Z bhyde: i'd not noticed before the C-h C-k doesn't report out what table it found the cmd in :(
2015-05-30T14:30:18Z bhyde: and since I have a repl, it must have loaded slime-repl ... hm
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2015-05-30T16:38:07Z loz: hi, can i import all symbols from package excluding some, explicitly specified?
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2015-05-30T16:51:28Z nyef: loz: SHADOW the symbols that you don't wish to import before you USE the other package?
2015-05-30T16:51:47Z nyef: There's also some shadowing import thing as well.
2015-05-30T16:51:49Z loz: nyef: i actually want to define symbol with same name
2015-05-30T16:52:13Z nyef: Okay, so SHADOW is the thing to use.
2015-05-30T16:52:29Z nyef: Or whatever the equivalent is in DEFPACKAGE.
2015-05-30T16:52:58Z nyef: Usually I'm happier using an explicit package prefix or an explicitly-inclusive list of symbols to import.
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2015-05-30T16:53:43Z loz: nyef: me too, but for tests its a bit annoying :) shadow did it, thanks
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2015-05-30T17:02:45Z k-stz: does cl have a facility to disable gc for certain objects?
2015-05-30T17:02:56Z k-stz: or is it an all or nothing solution?
2015-05-30T17:03:10Z nyef: k-stz: What are you actually attempting to accomplish?
2015-05-30T17:03:47Z k-stz: for certain lowelevel stuff (graphics rendering) deal with memory management myself, while the rest has gc
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2015-05-30T17:04:14Z nyef: Ah, it's the motion that's the problem?
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2015-05-30T17:05:35Z k-stz: as the scope blows up i've read that, for example in scheme, their might occur a framedrop for the gc to reclaim memory etc.
2015-05-30T17:06:11Z nyef: Okay, so the first thing to do is not worry about it until it actually proves to be an issue.
2015-05-30T17:06:25Z k-stz: right
2015-05-30T17:07:26Z k-stz: but i'm also interested if cl provides this, or any portably library some kind of (without-gc <code>)
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2015-05-30T17:08:53Z k-stz: might be an understanding problem on my part. If I recall correctly memory allocated with cffi's (FOREIN-ALLOC ..) never gets freed, so the facility could be build through that, or is already available
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2015-05-30T17:10:16Z Shinmera: CL the standard doesn't mention anything about GC.
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2015-05-30T17:13:42Z Bike: k-stz: just having manually managed memory wouldn't guarantee that no gcs occur during a certain time
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2015-05-30T17:14:25Z k-stz: Shinmera: well that's a deal breaker, so I need to consult my implementation
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2015-05-30T17:14:47Z k-stz: i was still generally speaking, so there is no problem to be solved yet
2015-05-30T17:15:04Z k-stz: gotta keep that in mind though (no gc in the standard)
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2015-05-30T17:21:09Z Shinmera: Keeping an object around is just a matter of keeping it referenced. Put a reference into a special variable or something similar and you're done.
2015-05-30T17:21:31Z Shinmera: The actual problem is as Bike says, ensuring that the GC isn't run during execution of a block.
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2015-05-30T17:51:41Z |3b|: k-stz: GC usually only happens if you allocate, so the usual strategy is just avoid allocation (possibly involving allocating early, or allocating outside the GC managed heap (with cffi:forein-alloc etc) if you have to)
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2015-05-30T17:52:31Z |3b|: there are also some things you can do to make GC cheaper, for example using typed arrays if possible rather than lists or untyped arrays, since then the GC doesn't need to scan the contents
2015-05-30T17:53:11Z |3b|: on some implementations finalizers or weak references might be more expensive, which might affect decision to use large numbers of them
2015-05-30T17:54:11Z |3b| isn't sure if that is still a concern for popular implementations or not, so might want to test it
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2015-05-30T17:55:11Z PuercoPop: k-stz: in SBCL there is sb-sys:without-gcing, but probably you should not worry about it as other have pointed out
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2015-05-30T18:19:44Z k-stz: that was helpful, thank you all. PuercoPop I must have read about this and forgot it, that's why I alluded to it previously
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2015-05-30T18:57:50Z |3b|: without-gcing isn't a long term solution, since if you weren't allocating it wouldn't GC anyway, and if you are you will run out of heap if you don't GC
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2015-05-30T18:59:35Z |3b|: actually, probably run out of space long before running out of heap, on the platforms with a generational collector
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2015-05-30T20:38:09Z |3b|: sbcl 1.2.12 seems to have been released with a bug affecting slime, so if people start having problems with C-c C-c, a workaround is to put (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'debug 0) into ~/.sbclrc
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2015-05-31T00:13:12Z Kudos2Me: Free All-in-one No-signup SEO Analyzer with PDF reports, enough said https://www.criosphinx.net/seo-checker
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2015-05-31T02:15:49Z devon: slbd has no obvious way to see an entire string sans ... without typing the name of the place where it is.  Am I missing some easy alternative?  Typing i gets the *slime-inspector* buffer showing one character object per line -- illegible.
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2015-05-31T02:51:02Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-05-31T02:52:49Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-05-31T03:34:03Z failproofshark: hello beach and nyef
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2015-05-31T05:00:29Z jackdaniel: o/
2015-05-31T05:06:51Z beach: Hello jackdaniel.
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2015-05-31T05:37:35Z beach: Was it Brooks who wrote "Plan to throw one away; you will anyway!"?
2015-05-31T05:37:40Z beach: Wise words.
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2015-05-31T06:25:14Z beach: It is amusing to read the file hierarchy.lsp from ECL CLOS.
2015-05-31T06:25:58Z beach: It contains the same information as the DEFCLASS forms would have contained, but with a different syntax.
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2015-05-31T07:20:49Z kami: Good morning.
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2015-05-31T07:46:10Z beach: Hello kami.
2015-05-31T07:46:47Z Shinmera: G'mornin' #lisp
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2015-05-31T07:58:11Z beach: Hello Shinmera.
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2015-05-31T08:13:36Z jackdaniel switches from archlinux to void
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2015-05-31T08:20:31Z beach: jackdaniel: At some point, I might need your advice about what distribution to use.
2015-05-31T08:21:07Z jackdaniel: beach: what are you using right now? I think it's much of personal preference
2015-05-31T08:21:27Z beach: I am using Ubuntu, and I am very disappointed in the latest releases.
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2015-05-31T08:25:42Z jackdaniel: I'm afraid I won't be much of help - I assume you want something what just works, and I have not much experience with such distributions
2015-05-31T08:26:04Z jackdaniel: I prefer something w/o X11 by default and where I can configure what I actually want to install
2015-05-31T08:26:33Z beach: I understand.
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2015-05-31T08:30:56Z Shinmera: beach: Usually I recommend Mint to people who don't really want to bother too much.
2015-05-31T08:32:05Z beach: I'll read up on it.  Thanks.
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2015-05-31T08:43:22Z |3b|: devon: in the slime inspector you can hit p on the top line to get the whole string (or other object) printed to another buffer (not sure if you can do that directly from sldb though)
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2015-05-31T08:49:03Z |3b|: devon: might also be able to right click the string and pick "pretty-print"
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2015-05-31T12:39:37Z {TROLL}: LISP SUCKS
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2015-05-31T12:40:42Z {TROLL}: fu
2015-05-31T12:41:03Z p_l has set mode -b cositta!*@*
2015-05-31T12:41:14Z p_l has set mode +b *!*@*77.85.30.142
2015-05-31T12:41:28Z {TROLL} [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has been kicked from #lisp by p_l (You're really, really... pitiful.)
2015-05-31T12:41:36Z p_l: idiot didn't even change his IP
2015-05-31T12:42:20Z jackdaniel: but he starts to get an idea about parens, one day he's nick will be (troll :sorry t)
2015-05-31T12:42:29Z p_l: maybe
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2015-05-31T13:04:19Z pjb: beach: you will have to throw the second one too, because of the second system effect.
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2015-05-31T14:52:40Z digiorgi: why you personally choose CL over clojure?
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2015-05-31T14:53:14Z Shinmera: Because this is a CL channel.
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2015-05-31T14:56:27Z beach: digiorgi: Most people are not faced with a choice like that.
2015-05-31T14:57:09Z |3b|: me chose it over the combination of c++ and lua
2015-05-31T14:57:33Z |3b| did i mean
2015-05-31T14:58:05Z |3b|: not even sure clojure existed at the time
2015-05-31T14:59:32Z beach: According to Wikipedia, closure first appeared in 2007.  Common Lisp was standardized in 1994, but CLtL1 had already existed for 10 years or so by then.
2015-05-31T14:59:38Z beach: Clojure.
2015-05-31T14:59:44Z beach: Can't even type it.
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2015-05-31T15:01:59Z beach: |3b|: Can you say more about that choice?  What were the circumstances?
2015-05-31T15:02:36Z digiorgi: I think because the scripting capabilities of cl
2015-05-31T15:02:38Z |3b|: i wanted "high-performance" and "scriptable", which is commonly done with c++ + lua in games
2015-05-31T15:03:04Z beach: |3b|: I mean, was this for a personal project?
2015-05-31T15:03:17Z |3b|: yeah, personal projects
2015-05-31T15:03:29Z beach: Got it.
2015-05-31T15:04:12Z |3b|: at some point the combination got too annoying so went looking for alternatives. and CL seemed to have a good combination of those features without having to duplicate things between multiple languages
2015-05-31T15:04:50Z digiorgi: I also started learning CL for avoid the compilation-debug circles in c++ for games, also for a personal project.
2015-05-31T15:05:03Z beach: |3b|: Yeah, combining languages like that doesn't seem like a good idea.
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2015-05-31T15:15:30Z jackdaniel: < Shinmera> Because this is a CL channel. -- this answer doesn't make any sense in this particular situation
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2015-05-31T15:19:01Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: I don't deem it a productive question.
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2015-05-31T15:20:10Z Shinmera: Nor does it make sense to ask it in here
2015-05-31T15:20:51Z beach: Mu!
2015-05-31T15:21:13Z beach:  無
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2015-05-31T15:22:21Z Shinmera: 難しい
2015-05-31T15:22:41Z digiorgi: i asked the same inverted question in #clojure, and the answer was about the previous business integration with the jvm
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2015-05-31T15:23:25Z digiorgi: "at first, because company infrastructure was set up to make using the jvm a convenient choice. Now because of the large range of jvm libs and relatively frequent update of the vm"
2015-05-31T15:24:06Z digiorgi: is more about jvm than the languaje itself i think, the effective difference.
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2015-05-31T15:24:16Z jackdaniel: digiorgi: abcl is common-lisp in jvm
2015-05-31T15:24:18Z Shinmera: Except then you could use ABCL
2015-05-31T15:24:54Z Shinmera: The real reason will boil down to a combination of chance and marketing.
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2015-05-31T15:25:48Z jackdaniel: arguably some people fled away from cl community, not cl per se
2015-05-31T15:26:07Z beach: digiorgi: Both companies and individuals make choices about programming langauges based on tradition, experience, rumors, hearsay, fear, etc.  Few situations exist where someone has actually compared those choices rationally, taking into account all important factors.
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2015-05-31T15:27:29Z kephra: digiorgi, imho, the choice is easy - on one hand side I have a Lisp like language that not even implements tail optimization, and I'm stuck to it - on the other hand side I have a wide choice of implemenations of a standard.
2015-05-31T15:27:31Z beach: digiorgi: Saying "company infrastructure was set up..." implicitly means that the cost would be higher to change that infrastructure than to make a different choice.  But usually, there is no grounds for thinking that.
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2015-05-31T15:32:04Z jackdaniel: woah, guix emacs integration is pretty cool :)
2015-05-31T15:32:14Z digiorgi: TCO is not standard and for example ECL doesn't have it... but i want to point beach, "Few situations exist where someone has actually compared those choices rationally".
2015-05-31T15:32:17Z digiorgi: Thanks
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2015-05-31T15:33:44Z beach: It is a chapter in my book (still unpublished) on software engineering. :)
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2015-05-31T15:35:00Z jackdaniel: tco or rational comparisons?
2015-05-31T15:35:15Z beach: Choosing a programming language.
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2015-05-31T15:35:56Z jackdaniel: sounds interesting
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2015-05-31T15:37:14Z beach: Most books on software engineering seem to convey the idea that productivity, cost, quality, etc. do not depend on the programming language that is chosen, and that it is all about what documents to produce in what order.
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2015-05-31T15:38:19Z digiorgi: xd... in my University says: "Choose the one that is most used, because is the most stable, and therefore the one with the lowest risk"
2015-05-31T15:38:20Z beach: I personally think that the importance of those factors is small compared to the choice of the programming language, and that projects should consider that possibility.
2015-05-31T15:39:09Z beach: digiorgi: That idea implicitly says that all languages are basically the same in all other aspects.
2015-05-31T15:39:24Z beach: I just don't believe that.
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2015-05-31T15:40:28Z jackdaniel: I think various sources underline, that even if some languages are more powerful / beneficial then others, there is also human factor - it's easier to replace a droid then a jedi :-)
2015-05-31T15:40:41Z beach: Also, it is possible to put a cost on the risk of choosing a less stable language.  This idea basically says that this cost dwarfs everything else.
2015-05-31T15:41:32Z beach: jackdaniel: And that can also be estimated in terms of cost.  Nobody seems to do that though.
2015-05-31T15:41:41Z beach: It is called "risk analysis".
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2015-05-31T15:44:10Z beach: digiorgi: I am just hoping the person who recommended that does not have any real power to influence the choices of others.
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2015-05-31T15:46:32Z digiorgi: (: I hope... i took his words seriously because he managed extremely big projects (as functional analyst and project leader).
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2015-05-31T15:48:15Z beach: digiorgi: That only testifies to the lamentable state of the software industry.
2015-05-31T15:50:31Z fourier``: digiorgi: from the risks perspective it may be true; the bigger the language community, the more chances what the problem you've encountered is already solved by someone else. Stack-overflow-driven development. Take Java and Android for example. Costs easily predictable, people could easily be trained (even if they are new), infrastructure is already in place and big corporations are constantly working on its improvement
2015-05-31T15:51:55Z beach: fourier``: Costs are easily predictable until you get sued by Oracle.
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2015-05-31T15:52:23Z beach: This is the result of using a language whose definition is owned by a single entity.
2015-05-31T15:52:35Z oleo: lol
2015-05-31T15:52:40Z fourier``: beach: in this case you are most likely a big corporation as well, don't you?
2015-05-31T15:53:35Z beach: fourier``: There is also the very real possibility that Google is forced to change the API of Android, in which case every company writing an application for Android must rewrite it.
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2015-05-31T15:54:20Z beach: fourier``: Again, that is the risk of deciding to use a language that is controlled by a single entity.  It should have been analyzed with the other risks.
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2015-05-31T15:55:19Z fourier: beach: ok, then we will see if it comes true. At the moment it is just a fight between 2 corporations.
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2015-05-31T15:55:57Z beach: fourier: A project leader deciding to "wait and see if something happens" is not doing his/her job.
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2015-05-31T15:56:18Z fourier: beach: in this case you have a choice: either develop an app for Android(and take a business risk of something you've described) or not.
2015-05-31T15:56:21Z jackdaniel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75Ju0eM5T2c <- donald knuth's advice to young people
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2015-05-31T15:58:48Z fourier: and actually the risks of updating the app with a new API is much less than to find some new talented developers which then should be trained to use some not-popular programming language
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2015-05-31T16:00:29Z beach: fourier: There is no support for that opinion in the literature.
2015-05-31T16:00:39Z pjb: In my experience, in all companies, there are programmers who confess knowing lisp.  Either being lispers at home, or having been taught lisp (or scheme) at the university.
2015-05-31T16:02:28Z pjb: Therefore perhaps the problem is otherwise, if we assume that most programmer have some lisp knowledge, why don't they choose or impose it in their job?  May be the problem is the knowledge of lisp they have, and therefore comes from the teaching they have had?
2015-05-31T16:02:53Z pjb: Having more good lisp teachers like beach would probably help much more than anything else.
2015-05-31T16:03:13Z jackdaniel: pjb: problem is a management, I've tried numerous times to push some lisp software to client, they prefered bash scripts ;-)
2015-05-31T16:03:27Z jackdaniel: in my previous company
2015-05-31T16:03:33Z beach: pjb: Thanks! :)
2015-05-31T16:04:10Z beach: jackdaniel: In my experience, it never works to try to push management.  They only thing that works in my experience is to show them that you can do better than the others.
2015-05-31T16:04:11Z fourier: beach: the reality shows otherwise. I've only once (after like 0.5 years working with different companies in mobile industry) seen the company who requires or actually agrees to something non-trivial, it was the Swift by the way, since they've decided that they will be forced to switch to it anyway and ought to rewrite the app for a next version already, so they decided to go with Swift
2015-05-31T16:04:14Z pjb: Yes, but this is clearly a generation problem. you have to form a lot of lispers in the university so that 10-20 years later when they are promoted into managing and with a following of younger lispers, they make switch over.
2015-05-31T16:04:51Z pjb: s/make/may/
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2015-05-31T16:05:29Z pjb: fourier: or, indeed, you could become first an influencial world wide corporation, and force a language on your third party programmers.
2015-05-31T16:05:48Z pjb: But it takes (- 2014 1974) -> 40 years.
2015-05-31T16:06:42Z jackdaniel: fourier: there are various proofs that there are companies who actually risk with new languages - w/o that ruby on rails or python would never be so popular, neither clojure would be on trail of entering mainstream
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2015-05-31T16:07:53Z fourier: pjb: I tried actually just for fun to promote Scala for the web app, the management didn't care about the language our web-solution can be implemented, but other developers were against: they didn't want to have something in CV which is not in the hot need on the market (I'm working in consultant company)
2015-05-31T16:09:09Z pjb: fourier: Indeed.  I think we should concentrate on the programmers and consider the axiom that it's them who choose the tool they use (or they have imposed upon themselves).
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2015-05-31T16:09:42Z pjb: Hence having good lisp schools would be essential to change the situation.
2015-05-31T16:10:24Z fourier: jackdaniel: some could. Young hipster companies with <15 employees could do whatever they want with the money they got from VC. Most tried to follow the simplest way: most popular/supported language and platform, because of support and easy possibility to hire developers
2015-05-31T16:13:29Z fourier: pjb: yes it is. But it is exactly developers who would like to use Visual Studio/IntelliJ IDEA/XCode/Xamarin instead of Emacs/Vim + whatever language we like (lisp or haskell or whatever)
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2015-05-31T17:15:41Z siriusbtx: does someone know why I am getting this error when trying to pass a struct by value to a c function? http://pastebin.com/CXCDBNwX
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2015-05-31T17:22:08Z emaczen: So a piece of a macro that I have expands to (case name ("X" x) ("Y" y) ...)
2015-05-31T17:22:18Z emaczen: The code that does this is:
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2015-05-31T17:22:45Z emaczen: (case name ,@(append (mapcar (lambda (field) `(,(symbol-name field) ,field)) fields) ...))
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2015-05-31T17:23:23Z emaczen: I want the case form to expand into (:x x) instead of ("X" x) -- what function can I use instead of #'symbol-name
2015-05-31T17:23:40Z _death: alexandria:make-keyword
2015-05-31T17:24:45Z emaczen: _death: Thanks
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2015-05-31T17:29:27Z |3b|: siriusbtx: try (printmystruct '(x 123 y 321)), s is a pointer not a struct
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2015-05-31T17:30:08Z siriusbtx: |3b|: that worked
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2015-05-31T17:31:13Z siriusbtx: |3b|: is it possible to make s not be a pointer?
2015-05-31T17:31:37Z |3b|: not really
2015-05-31T17:31:50Z |3b|: at least i don't think so
2015-05-31T17:32:10Z |3b|: well, aside from just doing (let ((s '(x 123 y 321))) ...)
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2015-05-31T17:32:45Z siriusbtx: |3b|: aight thx. Have been trying to fix that error for a couple of days :p
2015-05-31T17:33:09Z |3b|: if you already have a pointer, you could use cffi:mem-ref on it, but then you are doing a translation to lisp just so it can translate back to C for the call
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2015-05-31T17:34:24Z |3b|: i think there might be other options involving defining translation methods for the struct, but not sure those would be much better
2015-05-31T17:34:33Z siriusbtx: |3b|: kk
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2015-05-31T17:37:42Z pjb: emaczen: how do you plan to find the same string as in the source code for you CASE expression?
2015-05-31T17:38:10Z pjb: Ah, indeed, better you use a symbol.
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2015-05-31T18:20:36Z siriusbtx: |3b|: do you know how I would create an instance of a union with cffi?
2015-05-31T18:21:10Z |3b|: not sure about that
2015-05-31T18:21:34Z siriusbtx: any1 else?
2015-05-31T18:22:11Z Bike: Create how? can you just foreign-alloc a size you get from grovel?
2015-05-31T18:22:25Z siriusbtx: Bike: grovel?
2015-05-31T18:24:12Z siriusbtx: Bike: you mean allocating a foreigh-type-size of the union?
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2015-05-31T18:24:43Z Bike: yeah.
2015-05-31T18:25:08Z siriusbtx: Bike: could work.
2015-05-31T18:25:25Z siriusbtx: Bike: while thinking about it (foreign-alloc 'theunion) should work also :p
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2015-05-31T18:31:52Z k-stz: siriusbtx: yes was just about to point that out, use forein-alloc, because with-foreign-object will free the pointer implictly
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2015-05-31T18:38:11Z k-stz: 1
2015-05-31T18:38:12Z k-stz: 1
2015-05-31T18:38:12Z k-stz: 1
2015-05-31T18:38:19Z k-stz: oops
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2015-05-31T18:39:09Z pjb: Error: oops is an undefined word in forth.  Care to define it?
2015-05-31T18:39:57Z k-stz: pjb: am I still in a repl? :b
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2015-05-31T18:43:57Z k-stz: was wondering why slime autocompletion didn't work in my #lisp-irc-repl, go figure..
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2015-05-31T18:45:07Z pjb: k-stz: you can activate slime-mode here.
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2015-05-31T18:46:44Z k-stz: (format t "oh wow ~a is right" 'pjb)
2015-05-31T18:47:13Z pjb: eg. I bind C-x C-e to slime-eval-last-expression in lisp erc channels.
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2015-05-31T18:47:25Z pjb: So I can easily get the result of (+ 1 2) --> 3
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2015-05-31T21:13:30Z digiorgi: when i create a project in the common-lisp folder and inside that folder i have a folder called projectA, asdf find project-a.asd but it doesn't find project-a-test.asd. How can i fix that?
2015-05-31T21:13:54Z digiorgi: folder called project-a*
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2015-05-31T21:16:55Z Bike: digiorgi: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Controlling-where-ASDF-searches-for-systems
2015-05-31T21:17:06Z Bike: easiest is to throw it in *central-registry*, though
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2015-05-31T21:17:42Z digiorgi: but i want to make a portable library, if do pushing in *central-registry* wont work
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2015-05-31T21:22:28Z |3b|: telling asdf how to find the .asd files is part of installing the lib, not part of the lib, so doesn't really affect "portable" or not
2015-05-31T21:23:55Z digiorgi: but is ok if inside a .asd i do: (pushnew (asdf:system-source-directory :project-a) asdf
2015-05-31T21:24:10Z digiorgi: :central-registry*)
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2015-05-31T21:24:29Z digiorgi: or i just have to leave it without that?
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2015-05-31T21:31:25Z pjb: digiorgi: it's too late!
2015-05-31T21:31:38Z pjb: in the asd file, asdf has ALREADY found the asd file!
2015-05-31T21:32:31Z pjb: digiorgi: modify asdf:*central-registry* only in the REPL, for temporary system finding.  Use quicklisp and ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ for custom-installed systems.
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2015-05-31T21:40:11Z |3b|: don't modify any asdf configuration from your project, that's the user's responsibility
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2015-05-31T21:58:10Z jasom: digiorgi: put the test system in the same .asd file as the non-test, or call it project-a/test
2015-05-31T21:59:51Z jasom: digiorgi: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#index-find_002dsystem for some more information on that
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2015-05-31T22:30:20Z dim: pjb: or in a Makefile where you ql:quickload your application to then build a binary image with buildapp or something, so that non CL users are still able to build it witout having to learn anything other than to type `make`
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2015-05-31T23:16:28Z spacebat: I've sometimes felt the need of a local method definition facility - I guess like the generic-flet/labels that didn't make it into the standard
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2015-05-31T23:19:07Z spacebat: its probably a sign that some deeper refactoring needs to be done, but that may involve going into some 3rd party code, and so I thought to ask
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2015-05-31T23:19:35Z spacebat: any tip/trick/pattern concerning local method modification, whether lexical or dynamic
2015-05-31T23:20:22Z Bike: spacebat: maybe look up the contextl library.
2015-05-31T23:20:55Z spacebat: I'll check it out
2015-05-31T23:22:39Z spacebat: it mentions lispworks 7 so it must be maintained :)
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2015-05-31T23:39:10Z pillton: I have been thinking some more about string designators and readtable-case. The functions GENSYM and INTERN make things messy when using symbols.
2015-05-31T23:40:07Z Bike: yeah, that's why alexandria has a bunch of stuff like symbolicate and make-gensym
2015-05-31T23:41:36Z pillton: I was thinking of introducing a new reader macro #` where #`here is the result of (symbol-name '#:here).
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2015-05-31T23:43:24Z pillton: Bike: Thanks. I didn't know about them.
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2015-05-31T23:47:08Z pillton: Bike: The reader macro would avoid having to quote the symbol. e.g. (alexandria:make-gensym '#:var-).
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2015-05-31T23:50:39Z pillton: I looked in to using #" but it causes issues with paredit and syntax highlighting in Emacs.
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2015-05-31T23:51:33Z pillton: Has anyone tried building an implementation with readtable-case set to :downcase?
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2015-05-31T23:54:00Z pjb: pillton: what about something like "HERE"?
2015-05-31T23:55:27Z pillton: pjb: Consider the use case where you are a library writer with readtable-case set to :upcase and you have a user which has it set to :downcase.
2015-05-31T23:55:35Z pjb: Why do you want to try it building?  You can just set the readtable case, and quickload systems.  If they are not buggy, then they'll compile and work properly.
2015-05-31T23:55:48Z pjb: Or :PRESERVE.
2015-05-31T23:55:55Z pillton: (|REDUCE| ...) gets old really quickly.
2015-05-31T23:57:36Z pjb: (LET ((is (LAMBDA (a b) (LIST a b))) (ok (LIST 'a 'b 'c))) (REDUCE is ok)) is ok.
2015-05-31T23:57:52Z pjb: (I've been a Modula-2 programmer).
2015-05-31T23:58:44Z pjb: pillton: You may use my upcase-lisp and upcase-lisp-region emacs commands.
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