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2015-05-01T00:55:15Z White_Flame: Is there a preferred way to post a single-file Lisp example with *read-default-float-format* set to 'double-float?
2015-05-01T00:55:30Z White_Flame: such that source code literals are read as doubles
2015-05-01T00:55:59Z White_Flame: I'm not certain if #.(setf ...) is guaranteed to do this
2015-05-01T00:56:08Z White_Flame: though it seems the most effective way
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2015-05-01T01:07:30Z nyef: Why not use the explicit double-float syntax instead?
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2015-05-01T01:18:23Z Ober: akkad ping
2015-05-01T01:18:51Z akkad: ober: nack
2015-05-01T01:19:21Z Ober: need you to compile me something with capi
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2015-05-01T01:19:48Z White_Flame: nyef: so that copy/paste from other languages for blocks of numbers can easily work
2015-05-01T01:20:20Z White_Flame: and just for better legibility for C programmers using "double x = 0.0;"
2015-05-01T01:21:02Z nyef: Ah. I have a couple of off-the-wall suggestions, but the #.(setf ...) thing is far more concise, and will probably work well enough.
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2015-05-01T01:21:12Z nyef: You might not even need the #., really.
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2015-05-01T01:41:32Z Slothel: this may be a noob/stupid question but in Lisp if you pass a function object can you modify that object so that it then behaves differently when you call it
2015-05-01T01:43:07Z gabriel_laddel: how do I read a char from an arbitrary position in a file stream?
2015-05-01T01:43:17Z gabriel_laddel: setf file-position is undefined...
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2015-05-01T01:45:28Z gabriel_laddel: nevermind, got it
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2015-05-01T01:51:21Z White_Flame just discovered the wonder of '#.(setf ...) instead of unquoted #.(setf ...) to avoid toplevel evaluation of the resulting symbol
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2015-05-01T02:09:30Z nyef: White_Flame: But... you have evaluation there, so why bother with the '#. part at all?
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2015-05-01T02:09:55Z White_Flame: Is it guaranteed that forms will be evaluated before the reader has read the next form?
2015-05-01T02:10:13Z White_Flame: regular toplevel forms, that is
2015-05-01T02:10:21Z White_Flame: hmm, I guess in-package does require that as well
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2015-05-01T02:26:43Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-05-01T02:29:08Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-05-01T02:32:28Z Brozo: sup beach
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2015-05-01T02:55:26Z drmeister: Hi beach
2015-05-01T02:57:33Z beach: drmeister: Busy cleaning up the C++ code I see.
2015-05-01T02:58:06Z drmeister: Yes - it's amazing how far I can run with a bad idea.
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2015-05-01T02:58:44Z drmeister: But it's relaxing work.  It's like ironing clothes - it's very soothing because all the wrinkles disappear.
2015-05-01T02:58:56Z drmeister: The code looks a lot better.
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2015-05-01T02:59:16Z beach: So I understand, yes.
2015-05-01T02:59:20Z beach: Good thing.
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2015-05-01T03:01:14Z drmeister: The one thing that I don't like about it is that occasionally where previously I would have a function that looked like foo(Str_sp x)   that would accept a string or NIL  it now becomes foo(T_sp x) which looks like it will accept anything.
2015-05-01T03:02:06Z drmeister: I've been toying with a suggestion from SAL9000  that I use something like foo(Nilable<Str_sp> x)
2015-05-01T03:02:30Z beach: At least T_sp is not a lie the way Str_sp is.
2015-05-01T03:03:13Z drmeister: Right - that's the good thing.  And for every one case like the above there are a hundred where it's clearly improved.
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2015-05-01T03:04:36Z drmeister: Analogies in the CLHS are like the &optional end argument of SUBSEQ
2015-05-01T03:04:56Z drmeister: It can either be a NUMBER or NIL.
2015-05-01T03:06:01Z drmeister: Or NAMESTRING that can return a string or NIL
2015-05-01T03:06:33Z beach: Except that you can't express that kind of type in C++ as far as I know.
2015-05-01T03:06:44Z drmeister: I think it's that kind of thing that caused me to do what I did previously, allow every variable type to be that type or NIL.
2015-05-01T03:07:04Z drmeister: What kind of type can't I express in C++?
2015-05-01T03:07:22Z beach: (OR NUMBER NIL)
2015-05-01T03:07:29Z beach: Or can you?
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2015-05-01T03:07:44Z drmeister: I could with Nilable<Number_sp>
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2015-05-01T03:08:03Z drmeister: But that creates it's own complications.
2015-05-01T03:08:05Z beach: Er, I meant (OR NUMBER NULL) of course.
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2015-05-01T03:08:15Z drmeister: Right - I know what you mean.
2015-05-01T03:09:46Z drmeister: But where allowing Str_sp to point to NIL or a string - may very slightly improve the situations above in terms of readability - it complicates many, many other cases.  I had NIL checks all over the place.
2015-05-01T03:10:21Z drmeister: They are mostly out now.  I'm just stamping out bugs as I try to bring up a REPL.
2015-05-01T03:12:16Z beach: I still need to figure out why you have all this C++ code, as opposed to writing it in Common Lisp.  I know you have tried to tell me, but I am still not convinced that it couldn't be bootstrapped from Common Lisp somehow.
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2015-05-01T03:13:48Z drmeister: I've been thinking about it.
2015-05-01T03:14:33Z beach: I mean, just for starters, I am able to take HIR code and turn it into Common Lisp.  It ought to be just as easy to turn it into (say) C++ code.
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2015-05-01T03:16:01Z drmeister: Ok.
2015-05-01T03:17:18Z beach: But since I haven't done it, there might be things that I haven't thought about.
2015-05-01T03:18:21Z drmeister: I don't know the answer.
2015-05-01T03:18:27Z drmeister: ECL compiles to C code.
2015-05-01T03:18:40Z drmeister: Why does it have so much hand written C code?
2015-05-01T03:18:51Z drmeister: I basically followed their template?
2015-05-01T03:19:10Z drmeister: They have 90,000 lines of C code and about 35,000 lines of Common Lisp.
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2015-05-01T03:19:52Z beach: Well, I have a partial answer.  They wanted it to be possible to bootstrap from source on a system with only a C compiler.  The followup question these days is "why not suppose you have a Common Lisp system too?".
2015-05-01T03:20:15Z drmeister: I was wondering about that today.  They generate C code - why not just take all the functions written in C, write them in CL and then compile them into C.
2015-05-01T03:20:45Z beach: I think it would be possible.
2015-05-01T03:21:08Z drmeister: But if they compiled everything to C then they could bootstrap with just a C compiler.
2015-05-01T03:21:45Z beach: Ah, but then comes the question "What is meant by source code?"
2015-05-01T03:22:06Z beach: If the C code is generated from the Common Lisp code, then you can't just modify it in order to change something in the system.
2015-05-01T03:22:14Z Bike: build products in tree, no good
2015-05-01T03:22:31Z beach: Bike: What do you mean?
2015-05-01T03:22:38Z Bike: what you just said
2015-05-01T03:22:44Z beach: Oh, OK.
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2015-05-01T03:23:21Z beach: drmeister: Or, conversely, if you allow generated C code as source, why not some symbolic form of x86 machine code?
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2015-05-01T03:24:49Z drmeister: Or LLVM-IR?
2015-05-01T03:24:58Z beach: Or that, yes.
2015-05-01T03:26:26Z beach: I mean, I know the answer to that.  In fact the FSF defines "source code" as "the form of the program that is the most convenient for a programmer to modify" or something to that effect.
2015-05-01T03:26:42Z beach: So that excludes all code that is not written by a human.
2015-05-01T03:27:47Z beach: And that's a fine restriction.  But then, assuming the existence of a Common Lisp system and distributing the code as Common Lisp would work.
2015-05-01T03:28:20Z Bike: well, not always. like, you could have a specialized generator that works from some arcane mathematical formalism and then later modifications are stuff like printing more output. you wouldn't need to go back to the formalism.
2015-05-01T03:28:29Z drmeister: I guess it seemed more straightforward to me to start with C++ and work from there.
2015-05-01T03:29:44Z drmeister: Or rather, my idea was - the minimum amount of C++ code necessary to compile Common Lisp code.
2015-05-01T03:30:11Z drmeister: 150,000 lines of C++ code later, I'm still at it.
2015-05-01T03:30:18Z beach: drmeister: And if you assume an existing Common Lisp system, that would be A LOT less than what you have now.
2015-05-01T03:30:23Z drmeister: ECL has 90,000 lines of C code.
2015-05-01T03:30:37Z drmeister: I think the difference is that C++ really is a more wordy language than C.
2015-05-01T03:31:41Z beach: Bike: I am sorry.  I guess I am not quite awake yet.  "not always" what?
2015-05-01T03:31:42Z drmeister: Probably.   Well, nobody else did it that way so I did it this way.
2015-05-01T03:31:59Z Bike: i'm just being needlessly pedantic because it's kind of an interesting question
2015-05-01T03:32:10Z beach: Bike: Oh, I agree.
2015-05-01T03:32:55Z p_l: drmeister: I think it's not so much "wordiness" as much as the much fatter and complex runtime coupled with Clasp not having the option of dropping the aspects it doesn't like
2015-05-01T03:33:05Z beach: drmeister: We have different jobs.  Your job is to do computational chemistry as conveniently as possible.  My job is to think about fundamental CS aspects of things.
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2015-05-01T03:34:41Z beach: drmeister: So there is no reason to beat yourself up over something that is not your job.
2015-05-01T03:34:45Z drmeister: Hmph - I wish I could get some support to do my job.   I got another grant proposal turned down today.   The NSF should just put a sign on their web site - "closed until further notice".
2015-05-01T03:35:03Z beach: Oh, sorry to hear that.
2015-05-01T03:35:08Z Bike: clearly you should work together and write a lisp for Belousov–Zhabotinsky
2015-05-01T03:35:23Z drmeister is not knocking the NSF - they are fine people, doing the best they can under difficult funding situation. It's the clowns in Congress.
2015-05-01T03:35:47Z p_l: drmeister: hijack USDS budget for clasp funding? :>
2015-05-01T03:35:53Z drmeister: We are going to loose a generation of scientists.
2015-05-01T03:36:45Z beach: drmeister: The USA needs another J. C. R. Licklider.
2015-05-01T03:37:44Z Bike: huh. never heard of that guy, and i consider myself decent at history.
2015-05-01T03:38:01Z beach: Bike: Then you definitely need to read the book "The Dream Machine"
2015-05-01T03:38:16Z drmeister: You mentioned him to me before - he was a great man.
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2015-05-01T03:41:07Z beach: Bike: http://www.amazon.com/The-Dream-Machine-Licklider-Revolution/dp/0670899763
2015-05-01T03:41:19Z drmeister: The guy was prescient.
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2015-05-01T03:41:43Z Bike: mainly i j ust like reading bush.
2015-05-01T03:42:01Z Bike: we're all going to have small ebooks (based on microfilm) and personal cameras (worn on our foreheads)
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2015-05-01T03:43:42Z drmeister: Dude, the microfilm revolution is coming.
2015-05-01T03:44:10Z drmeister: All these ones and zeros - it's just a fad.
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2015-05-01T03:50:54Z drmeister: beach: That was a helpful observation.   I'm basically trying to implement a C++ type that represents (OR NULL -whatever-)
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2015-05-01T03:53:33Z drmeister: I haven't worked with DECLARE much but saying something like (declare (type (or null integer) foo)) is completely valid in Common Lisp - correct?
2015-05-01T03:53:41Z Bike: yup
2015-05-01T03:54:09Z drmeister: Right - and SBCL and your type inference engine is going to treat that like an assertion - is that correct?
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2015-05-01T03:54:16Z Bike: yup
2015-05-01T03:55:08Z drmeister: So that within the scope of the declare foo is guaranteed to be either NIL or an INTEGER.
2015-05-01T03:55:44Z Bike: uhhuh. pretty conceptually basic type, though it makes a bunch of formal stuff hard/impossible.
2015-05-01T03:56:06Z drmeister: So that any code like (when (typep foo 'string) ...) can be completely eliminated from within the scope of the declare.
2015-05-01T03:56:57Z Bike: yup. though that's kind of pathologically easy.
2015-05-01T03:57:43Z drmeister: The thing about it making format stuff hard/impossible - that's the Hindley–Milner stuff?
2015-05-01T03:57:50Z drmeister: formal
2015-05-01T03:58:32Z drmeister: And bike - I really appreciate the answers.
2015-05-01T03:59:05Z Bike: yeah, HM is a classic type inference algorithm that doesn't work if you have any subtypes at all (iirc) let alone disjunctions.
2015-05-01T04:00:36Z drmeister: beach is implementing this Nimble type inference engine - I don't know where it falls in terms of formal type inference.
2015-05-01T04:00:40Z Bike: HM does have type functions, though, (or "parametric types" or whatever they're technically called) which is a neat thing that lisp doesn't have
2015-05-01T04:00:52Z Bike: well, if it works on CL it's probably some kind of semicomputable.
2015-05-01T04:01:13Z Bike: CL types are different from e.g. haskell types in that you can always give up and say T, or you can give up later and give a broader type than what could theoretically be inferred.
2015-05-01T04:01:39Z Bike: and since CL admits eql types and stuff it's impossible to get the most specific types, since then you're solving haltin' problems.
2015-05-01T04:01:52Z Bike: which is again okay, because of how lisp works differently from haskell.
2015-05-01T04:02:43Z Bike: i havne't read tapl in a while, though, so don't ask me about existential types or nuthin.
2015-05-01T04:03:00Z drmeister: From what I read its the Kaplan and Ullman algorithm that beach is using.
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2015-05-01T04:04:46Z drmeister: What is semicomputable?
2015-05-01T04:05:54Z Bike: um, like something that's not computable completely but you can sort of approximate it.
2015-05-01T04:06:36Z Bike: like the halting problem is semicomputable, since you can run the program for one step, then two steps, etc., and if it halts you'll know that eventually but you can't be totally sure it doesn't no matter how long you run it.
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2015-05-01T04:11:29Z drmeister: I see.
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2015-05-01T04:12:56Z drmeister: This works for type inference because I generate code that handles all runtime cases and the type inference eliminates pathways and type checks that cannot happen.  But in the worst case, and the type inference completely fails - the code still works, it's just slow.
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2015-05-01T04:14:57Z Bike: right, exactly. it's not like required that type inference works, which it would be in the next thousand MLs.
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2015-05-01T04:17:18Z beach: drmeister: Baker's system is based on bi-directional data-flow techniques, as Kaplan and Ullman wrote about.  It is completely different from HM because they are not meant for the same kind of programming language.
2015-05-01T04:17:34Z drmeister: "which it would be in the next thousand MLs"?
2015-05-01T04:19:02Z Bike: ML is a family/whatever of programming languages closely connected to HM and other strict type inference. i'm alluding to a paper that was titled "The Next Nine Hundred Programming Languages" or something about ML.
2015-05-01T04:19:05Z beach: SML, CAML, OCAML?
2015-05-01T04:19:26Z drmeister: beach: Thanks.  I don't quite understand what the fundamental differences are between Haskel and Common Lisp wrt how type inference can be implemented in those two languages.   I should probably learn some Haskel at some point.
2015-05-01T04:20:10Z Bike: well basically haskell doesn't have a top type. you can't just have a function that takes anything, it has to take some more specific type, and types don't overlap at all.
2015-05-01T04:20:11Z beach: drmeister: In most statically-typed languages using type inference, the compiler rejects a program that is not correctly typed.
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2015-05-01T04:20:16Z drmeister: I see - I've heard that once we enumerate all of the possible names of ML that the universe will end.
2015-05-01T04:20:33Z drmeister: Or begin - it was one of those two.
2015-05-01T04:21:08Z beach: drmeister: In Common Lisp, you pretty much have to assume that a function can be called with anything, and then call ERROR when some operator is called with an object that it can't handle.
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2015-05-01T04:21:53Z drmeister: beach: I understand that.
2015-05-01T04:21:57Z Bike: well the compiler can reject things if it wants. i guess the difference is that MLoids are defined such that rejection is mandatory.
2015-05-01T04:22:12Z Bike: they're not allowed to fall back on tagged objects or whatever.
2015-05-01T04:23:53Z White_Flame: Can accept types comparable to (or symbol fixnum), for example, and perform further type tests?  I'm presuming there's something like that
2015-05-01T04:24:21Z White_Flame: ...Can _they_ accept...
2015-05-01T04:24:25Z Bike: Who's they?
2015-05-01T04:24:29Z White_Flame: MLoids
2015-05-01T04:24:31Z beach: drmeister: Consider my example from the other day: (defun ff (x y) (let* ((z (sqrt x)) (ignore (gg (abs z)))) (if (< z y) ...)))
2015-05-01T04:24:40Z Bike: Not as far as I know, which isn't much.
2015-05-01T04:24:56Z drmeister: So - and I'm going to make a leap here - the Lisp way is the function is invoked with arguments and it decides if it should signal an error with the arguments that it gets.   In ML type languages the function doesn't get called in the first place because its definition does not match the types of the arguments?
2015-05-01T04:25:03Z beach: drmeister: In Common Lisp, you have to call GG even if x is negative.
2015-05-01T04:25:53Z Bike: i don't understand that example, if x is negative z is just complex
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2015-05-01T04:26:04Z beach: Bike: But then < is not allowed.
2015-05-01T04:26:28Z beach: So since < is called with z, z has to be real, so x has to be non-negative.
2015-05-01T04:26:45Z Bike: Oh. right, ok.
2015-05-01T04:27:13Z Bike: in MLLisp the evaluatowhatever would just refuse to define ff.
2015-05-01T04:27:15Z beach: HM type inference would require x to be non-negative.
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2015-05-01T04:28:19Z beach: In Common Lisp, you have to call GG even if x is negative, and then signal an error when < is called with a complex number.
2015-05-01T04:30:35Z Bike: i wonder if that's explicitly defined anywhere?
2015-05-01T04:31:28Z White_Flame: at least in SBCL, I often get a warning about removing unused code, for that whch follows always-failing or infinite looping code
2015-05-01T04:31:37Z beach: Probably not.  But it is implicit in the definition of the semantics of each operator.
2015-05-01T04:32:13Z White_Flame: so even as-is, those warnings could be configured to propagate outwards
2015-05-01T04:33:33Z White_Flame: that defun ff's type signature could also claim x to be a positive integer, to provoke warnings while still compliant, if it doesn't alreay
2015-05-01T04:33:42Z White_Flame: s/integer/number
2015-05-01T04:33:57Z White_Flame: s/positive/non-negative/ :-P
2015-05-01T04:34:26Z beach: Not quite, actually.
2015-05-01T04:34:36Z beach: GG can contain a THROW.
2015-05-01T04:34:55Z beach: So that < never gets executed.
2015-05-01T04:34:58Z White_Flame: ah right, that skips teh condition system?
2015-05-01T04:35:25Z beach: But I see what you mean.  An example can be constructed that can't THROW.
2015-05-01T04:35:33Z White_Flame: (presuming "ignore" = ignore-errors in the example)
2015-05-01T04:35:50Z Bike: throw ignores pretty much everything not involving unwind-protect, sure.
2015-05-01T04:36:12Z beach: White_Flame: No, IGNORE was just a local variable.
2015-05-01T04:36:42Z White_Flame: yes, the perils of reading single-line lisp and being too used to indentation
2015-05-01T04:36:57Z beach: Right.  Sorry about that.
2015-05-01T04:37:01Z Bike: compiler is allowed to make (if (< z y) ...) (if (typep z 'real) (locally (declare (real z)) (if (< z y) ...)) (error ...)), tho
2015-05-01T04:38:02Z emaczen: Are there other ways to concatenate strings besides (concatenate 'string ..)
2015-05-01T04:38:12Z White_Flame: (format nil "..." thing1 thing2 thing3)
2015-05-01T04:38:13Z beach: Bike: Definitely.  And it can insert (if (< x 0) ...) at the beginning of FF, duplicate the rest, and optimize for the case where (>= x 0).
2015-05-01T04:38:30Z White_Flame: (with a real format string, that is)
2015-05-01T04:39:00Z emaczen: White_Flame: I'll give it a try
2015-05-01T04:39:10Z emaczen: For the specific case that I'm looking at
2015-05-01T04:39:33Z White_Flame: if I'm peppering in lots of small literal strings, I tend to prefer format
2015-05-01T04:39:58Z White_Flame: if everything to concatenate is already in a variable, I tend to prefer concatenate
2015-05-01T04:41:03Z emaczen: White_Flame, yeah this is working out better so far. I had some ~C #\tabs and it was problematic with concatenate
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2015-05-01T04:42:57Z White_Flame: beach: and one could imagine a system where the optimized case is broken out to a separate function, and call sites where x>0 is known can directly call that
2015-05-01T04:43:27Z White_Flame: s/>/>=/ dangit I'm imprecise tonight
2015-05-01T04:44:17Z Slothel: Hmmm. I think to entertain myself for the rest of my shift I'm going to try to build a lisp script that will strip my html/css code of all whitespace when i save it and put the whitespace back in when i open it
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2015-05-01T04:44:33Z Slothel: Decent practical project to learn this language
2015-05-01T04:44:55Z White_Flame: of all whitespace not inside <pre> tags, you mean, right? :)
2015-05-01T04:45:28Z Slothel: White_Flame: yes, haha.
2015-05-01T04:45:56Z White_Flame: and certainly "redundant" whitespace, not "all" whitespace.  <title>ThisIsMyPage</title>
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2015-05-01T04:46:24Z beach: White_Flame: I am planning to do something like that in SICL.  I am thinking SQRT should be defined to test for a negative argument.  When inlined, it will automatically optimize then.
2015-05-01T04:46:26Z White_Flame: and spaces within strings in javascript...
2015-05-01T04:46:50Z Bike: the code path for sqrt of a negative number is probably somewhat distinct, so...
2015-05-01T04:46:59Z beach: Right.
2015-05-01T04:47:21Z White_Flame: beach: cool.  I guess one way to look at it is that it exposes compiler macro style functionality from normal functions
2015-05-01T04:47:24Z Bike: and for complexes, too. i don't even remember how to calculate that one. some newton shit i suppose
2015-05-01T04:48:14Z beach: White_Flame: I am planning to do it at the AST level.
2015-05-01T04:48:33Z beach: Bike: I forget too.
2015-05-01T04:48:38Z Bike: compiler macros are nice in that the lisp is simple, but they pretty inevitably can't take advantage of a lot of what the compiler does, which sucks
2015-05-01T04:48:40Z White_Flame: right, that exposing would be purely automatic
2015-05-01T04:48:53Z White_Flame: as opposed to manual compiler macros
2015-05-01T04:48:54Z beach: Exactly.
2015-05-01T04:50:10Z beach: I am thinking of using compiler macros only to turn N-ary functions such as + and * into binary functions, and for processing &optional and &key arguments at compile time.
2015-05-01T04:50:49Z Slothel: Yeah, so I should have been more precise. Redundant whitespace is what I'm going to remove. Nothing that would break the functionality of the code
2015-05-01T04:50:54Z Bike: i think sbcl and ccl do the first one, and &key for specific ones
2015-05-01T04:51:34Z beach: Bike: I believe you.  I haven't looked.
2015-05-01T04:51:50Z Bike: just trying to encourage you, or something!
2015-05-01T04:52:07Z beach: Oh, OK.  Thanks! :)
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2015-05-01T05:18:01Z Slothel: Hey, quick question but I couldn't really find a comprehensive answer on google
2015-05-01T05:18:59Z Slothel: Can you connect to a SQL database with Lisp? And if so, does anyone here have enough experience with SQL to know if you can reuse a connection for multiple users so that I'm not creating 1000 db connections to service all the visitors to my site?
2015-05-01T05:19:29Z Bike: there's a couple libraries for it
2015-05-01T05:19:36Z Bike: http://www.cliki.net/SQL
2015-05-01T05:19:40Z drmeister: beach: The type inference needs some sort of rule set regarding what functions produce and require what types - doesn't it?
2015-05-01T05:20:51Z White_Flame: Slothel: I've found postmodern to be a very nice package for connecting to postgresql
2015-05-01T05:21:46Z Slothel: White_Flame: Thanks. Excuse my ignorance but, is it even feasible to use one connection to service more than one visitor? I just need to pull some info from the db to display and the info is going to be the same regardless of which user is accessign
2015-05-01T05:22:41Z White_Flame: I know that it can run multiple transactions from a single connection.  To reuse a connection, you're going to have to have all use go through whatever process is holding that connection anyway
2015-05-01T05:23:09Z White_Flame: when it comes to different database account users, I don't know enough
2015-05-01T05:24:14Z White_Flame: but in terms of web visitors, that's likely all through the same database user
2015-05-01T05:24:56Z Slothel: White_Flame: Right, the user doesn't matter. My blueprint right now is like, visit page x, page x has hard-coded call to set up a db connection, and I just want to be able to only open that connection once every y users
2015-05-01T05:25:12Z White_Flame: sure
2015-05-01T05:25:14Z Slothel: I'm not familiar enough with databases to know if a connection creates much overhead, or impacts performance significantly
2015-05-01T05:25:38Z White_Flame: it's a TCP socket connection, so it's not super lightweight in terms of latency
2015-05-01T05:25:47Z White_Flame: in terms of starting new ones
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2015-05-01T05:26:21Z beach: drmeister: The type declaration of functions should be enough, but even better is to have the AST available and inline it.
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2015-05-01T05:28:06Z drmeister: Got it - thanks.
2015-05-01T05:29:12Z drmeister: Aside:  I was talking with one of my colleagues today and we were talking about a large software package written in C++ that people are starting to have a lot of trouble working with.
2015-05-01T05:29:31Z beach: So here is a possible project to end all bootstrapping debates: BCL (Bootstrap Common Lisp).  Written in highly-portable C.  Emphasis on simplicity and maintainability.  Interpreted.  Using Boehm GC.  No TCO.  No immediate objects.  All objects have the same basic layout as standard-object.  Using the strictest limits that the Common Lisp HyperSpec allows such as just single-float, minimum number of return values.  Single threaded.
2015-05-01T05:29:32Z beach: Etc.
2015-05-01T05:29:47Z drmeister: He bemoaned the difficulty of engineering software that a lot of people can collaborate on.
2015-05-01T05:30:31Z White_Flame: beach: I'd actually use Forth.  It's the easiest language to bootstrap.
2015-05-01T05:30:33Z Slothel: So, it seems like we have these different paradigms to manage complexity of large systems, but some of these paradigms are growing super complex themselves, even to do trivial things. I don't have any specific examples but this is partly why I was drawn to Lisp
2015-05-01T05:30:44Z beach: drmeister: But he only considers C++?
2015-05-01T05:30:53Z drmeister: I pointed out that Emacs is a great example of a large software project that lots of people collaborated on.  It's a based on a Lisp and it's probably dynamic variables that makes it so much easier to collaborate with.
2015-05-01T05:30:59Z beach: White_Flame: That's an interesting idea.
2015-05-01T05:31:04Z Slothel: And I'm also kind of..disillusioned with OOP, but that's a super unpopular opinion
2015-05-01T05:31:24Z beach: Slothel: I take it you have used CLOS extensively?
2015-05-01T05:31:34Z H4ns: Slothel: come over to the clojure side, you'll get a lot of applause for that opinion there! :)
2015-05-01T05:31:35Z White_Flame: Slothel: that opinion is slowly growing
2015-05-01T05:31:54Z White_Flame: I tend to go for meta-programming and data-driven personally
2015-05-01T05:31:54Z Slothel: beach: Nope, I'm just starting to learn Lisp
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2015-05-01T05:32:26Z beach: Slothel: Then you should avoid some general statements of OOP, because the OOP style of CLOS is very different.
2015-05-01T05:32:39Z beach: drmeister: What did he say then?
2015-05-01T05:32:40Z Slothel: I had a funny idea one day to create a meta-language that could be trivially translated into different "real" languages but I don't know if a) that has been done b) if it's possible c) it sounds like Lisp
2015-05-01T05:32:54Z Slothel: beach: Sure, that's why I added the disclaimer about being drawn to Lisp
2015-05-01T05:33:02Z drmeister: He couldn't disagree.  But we are talking about just two examples.
2015-05-01T05:33:28Z drmeister: I was just looking at the acknowledgements list for Emacs - wow.   http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Acknowledgments.html
2015-05-01T05:33:32Z White_Flame: Slothel:  As I said elsewhere recently, Lisp lets you write pseudocode, then use macros to convert that into real code, making your pseudocode live.  Certainly sounds like C
2015-05-01T05:33:36Z H4ns: beach: the key critique of OOP is that it encourages mutability
2015-05-01T05:33:37Z White_Flame: option C, not language C!
2015-05-01T05:34:02Z beach: H4ns: Oh, from the Clojure people.  Sure.
2015-05-01T05:34:22Z Slothel: White_Flame: haha, I got what you meant.
2015-05-01T05:34:37Z White_Flame: drmeister: Emacs is like 40 thousand years old and open source, what do you expect? :)
2015-05-01T05:34:41Z H4ns: beach: i'd say from the functional programming people.
2015-05-01T05:34:53Z beach: Yes, of course.
2015-05-01T05:35:51Z beach: White_Flame: I think drmeister has seen old open-source projects written in other languages fall apart, the way Emacs has not done.
2015-05-01T05:36:14Z drmeister: White_Flame: The "wow" comes from how it still works with all those people working on it.
2015-05-01T05:36:22Z beach: I forget what the name of that computational-chemistry project was.  The one with translated Fortran and stuff in it.
2015-05-01T05:36:35Z Slothel: I like what I've seen from Clojure but I don't know how I feel about the JVM
2015-05-01T05:36:36Z drmeister: Rosetta - that's the one we were discussing.
2015-05-01T05:36:43Z beach: Right.  Rosetta.
2015-05-01T05:36:50Z Slothel: I've also looked at Haskell and I think that's the next thing I'll learn after Lisp
2015-05-01T05:37:02Z Slothel: It's too bad that the stuff that I find interesting is completely unmarketable
2015-05-01T05:37:28Z drmeister: It's still the bees knees but it's a very difficult piece of software to use.
2015-05-01T05:37:44Z Bike: eh, everything's like that to some extent.
2015-05-01T05:39:08Z beach: drmeister: Another interesting example is ITA.  I recall reading that it's the very fact that they use Common Lisp that they were able to beat a system written in assembler with respect to performance; not of the raw code, but because it is impossibly to attempt such complex stuff in lower-level languages.
2015-05-01T05:41:49Z drmeister: Scientific software takes "difficult to use" to another level.
2015-05-01T05:42:23Z beach: What do you mean?
2015-05-01T05:42:27Z drmeister: Before I started grad school I spent a year writing a new front end for AMBER, a molecular dynamics package.
2015-05-01T05:42:37Z Bike: have you never used scientific software, beach?
2015-05-01T05:42:54Z drmeister: Hand editing fortran format input files to set up runs.  Brrr.
2015-05-01T05:43:23Z beach: Bike: I might not have, actually.  I still remember the first day I tried using floats, because my entire training had skipped them. :)
2015-05-01T05:43:33Z Bike: at work one of the main entry functions has a dozen ish parameters, each of which is a struct with a dozen or so entries, and that's after i rewrote it
2015-05-01T05:44:13Z Bike: you also used to control one parameter by commenting out particular sections of code.
2015-05-01T05:44:16Z Bike: good stuff all.
2015-05-01T05:44:18Z beach: That sounds more like "crap software" than "scientific software".
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2015-05-01T05:44:44Z Bike: enlightenment is realizing that there is no boundary
2015-05-01T05:44:47Z beach: I mean, there is nothing intrinsic in scientific software that makes it necessary to write it like that.
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2015-05-01T05:45:05Z Bike: oh, of course not, but scientists don't care about programming best practices.
2015-05-01T05:45:18Z beach: It is just a matter of putting people with no training in software engineering to attempt to write software.
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2015-05-01T05:46:26Z White_Flame: beach: you mean like drmeister? *runs*
2015-05-01T05:46:27Z beach: drmeister: That's another difference between Rosetta and Emacs.  Richard Stallman has a long history of software development.
2015-05-01T05:49:57Z beach: White_Flame: Like almost anything else, software engineering can be learned.  And drmeister is a smart guy, so he can learn it.  But it is clear that Clasp is suffering from some of his lack of training.  I have no doubt that these things will be corrected eventually as drmeister learns more and gets more help.
2015-05-01T05:51:05Z Quadrescence: yes drmeister needs to learn the VISITOR PATTERN and FLYWHEEL PATTERN
2015-05-01T05:51:05Z Bike: i was reading some old computational chemistry papers the other day and they mentioned running into problems with portability and  PRNGs "even in Fortran", it was cute
2015-05-01T05:51:57Z beach: Bike: Sounds bad.
2015-05-01T05:53:06Z Bike: It also gave printing costs for all the computer generated figures. Very cute.
2015-05-01T05:53:29Z beach: Different world.
2015-05-01T05:55:08Z beach: White_Flame: A big difference between drmeister and most of "those other people" is that drmeister knows that developing software is nontrivial, where as I have met many scientists who think that anybody can do it without any training.
2015-05-01T05:55:22Z drmeister: ... and I have a REPL
2015-05-01T05:55:36Z drmeister: with tagged pointers.
2015-05-01T05:56:02Z Bike: to be fair, i know many programmers who think that too
2015-05-01T05:56:23Z beach: White_Flame: As a consequence, these people also think that any formal training program in CS or programming or related domains is useless and ought to be canceled in favor of more money to their own precious discipline.
2015-05-01T05:56:43Z beach: Bike: I know.
2015-05-01T05:57:26Z White_Flame: beach: Yes, just throwing around a "ha ha, just serious" poke :)
2015-05-01T05:57:43Z White_Flame: I don't have my degree either, and my incompleted field of study was electrical engineering
2015-05-01T05:58:10Z beach: White_Flame: Thanks for that poke.  It gave me the opportunity to once again say what I think. :)
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2015-05-01T05:58:32Z White_Flame: yep, I do the same :)
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2015-05-01T06:04:27Z drmeister: Right - I'm off to bed - good night all.  Thanks for the stimulating discussion.
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2015-05-01T06:13:43Z atgnag_: On lisp-koans, what is the expected answer for koans/special-forms.lsp on line 64?
2015-05-01T06:13:51Z atgnag_: I couldn't figure that out for some reason.
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2015-05-01T06:24:14Z beach: atgnag_: The test is wrong it seems.
2015-05-01T06:24:25Z beach: Because it assigns to a global variable A that is not defined.
2015-05-01T06:25:33Z beach: Other than that, A is 100 in (* 10 A), so B is  1000.
2015-05-01T06:26:42Z beach: So, no taker for my BCL idea?  I said C, but any notation considered "universally available" would do of course.
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2015-05-01T06:38:50Z Shinmera: Happy labour day, #lisp
2015-05-01T06:39:31Z White_Flame goes into labor to celebrate
2015-05-01T06:40:24Z beach: Shinmera: Hello.  Thanks.  You too.
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2015-05-01T07:17:24Z White_Flame: Where is the appropriate place to put type declarations for LOOP iteration variables?
2015-05-01T07:17:31Z beach: Yes.
2015-05-01T07:17:48Z beach: (loop for x of-type (integer 10 20) from ...)
2015-05-01T07:18:05Z White_Flame: ah, I've been looking for declare, didn't notice of-type
2015-05-01T07:18:30Z beach: The OF-TYPE can be left out for certain simple types, such as fixnum.
2015-05-01T07:19:08Z beach: (loop for x fixnum from A to B do ...)
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2015-05-01T07:25:07Z Shinmera: And sometimes of-type will be mysteriously ignored, I've found.
2015-05-01T07:25:15Z Shinmera: Declaring types with LOOP can be a huge pain.
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2015-05-01T07:31:22Z beach: White_Flame: You can also use destructuring with types: (loop for (x . y) of-type (fixnum . cons) in list do ...)
2015-05-01T07:31:48Z White_Flame: cool
2015-05-01T07:31:51Z beach implemented LOOP not too long ago.
2015-05-01T07:32:13Z White_Flame: I'm just doing a numeric for x = val then expr
2015-05-01T07:33:00Z White_Flame: and of course, numeric types is where inference needs the most help to optimize
2015-05-01T07:33:38Z ehu: beach: you implemented LOOP ground up?
2015-05-01T07:33:51Z ehu: from the ...
2015-05-01T07:33:52Z beach: ehu: Yes.  As part of SICL.
2015-05-01T07:34:08Z ehu: wow.
2015-05-01T07:34:17Z beach: ehu: It has some interesting features, other than having fewer bugs that some of the existing ones.
2015-05-01T07:34:19Z ehu: nice. but where do you find the time.
2015-05-01T07:34:32Z beach: ehu: It's my job.  I am doing research.
2015-05-01T07:34:55Z beach: ehu: As long as I find enough material to publish a few papers per year, I am OK.
2015-05-01T07:35:32Z ehu: what's the subject of your research, if you're re-implementing most of CL?
2015-05-01T07:36:07Z beach: Whatever I come across.  With LOOP I did a combinatorial parser that makes the entire thing modular.
2015-05-01T07:36:11Z beach: That's publishable.
2015-05-01T07:36:22Z beach: I improved on CLOS dispatch.
2015-05-01T07:36:44Z ehu: performace wise or correctness?
2015-05-01T07:36:45Z beach: I created a non-consing version of COUNT :FROM-END T.
2015-05-01T07:37:00Z beach: CLOS?  Performance.
2015-05-01T07:37:18Z beach: I showed how to use first-class global environments without performance penalty.
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2015-05-01T07:38:09Z ehu: those are interesting subjects in the area of CL, but why would a paper get accepted? I mean, do these findings have broader applicability?
2015-05-01T07:38:22Z beach: I showed that a mark-and-compact GC for the nursery has good performance.
2015-05-01T07:38:27Z ehu: or at least broader interest?
2015-05-01T07:38:56Z beach: I submit to ILC and ELS.
2015-05-01T07:39:00Z ehu: ah.
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2015-05-01T07:39:22Z beach: But yeah, faster generic dispatch is more generally useful.
2015-05-01T07:39:55Z ehu: so that secures your job then?
2015-05-01T07:40:19Z beach: It would be secure anyway.  But yeah, I justify my salary that way.
2015-05-01T07:41:02Z ehu: oh. in the NL, you'd need to get a seat renewed every few years and write a proposal for research.
2015-05-01T07:41:05Z ehu: you don't have that?
2015-05-01T07:41:13Z beach: No.
2015-05-01T07:41:21Z ehu: if your proposal doesn't make it, you're out of a job.
2015-05-01T07:41:53Z beach: You do what you need to do.
2015-05-01T07:42:00Z jackdaniel: hm, how to peek what test results were (cl-test-grid)? I run tests, they got uploaded *somwhere*, and deleted from my local directory
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2015-05-01T07:44:05Z beach: ehu: Given that what passes for fundable research is largely a fad, I am glad I don't have to play that game.
2015-05-01T07:44:05Z ehu: jackdaniel: I think they get uploaded to some google group?
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2015-05-01T07:44:19Z ehu: right.
2015-05-01T07:44:54Z ehu: I was thinking how that game mostly supports "research" which is highly likely to provide the desired outcome.
2015-05-01T07:45:10Z beach: Sure.
2015-05-01T07:45:20Z kami: Good morning.
2015-05-01T07:45:37Z beach: Where what is "desired" is determined by people who should do something else.
2015-05-01T07:45:42Z beach: Hello kami.
2015-05-01T07:45:47Z jackdaniel: ehu: hm, I've found only report, that results has got uploaded (in mailing list)
2015-05-01T07:46:17Z ehu: ok. you might want to contact Anton Vodonosov who wrote cl-test-grid.
2015-05-01T07:46:26Z ehu: he should be able to help you find the results.
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2015-05-01T07:46:58Z jackdaniel: right, that seems most straightforward
2015-05-01T07:47:09Z ehu: I only ever used results produced by him.
2015-05-01T07:47:18Z beach: For example, OS research is stone dead, because someone thinks we already have the best there is.
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2015-05-01T07:48:14Z ehu: makes you wonder why there's development on OSes at all then.
2015-05-01T07:48:15Z beach: Research on rewrite systems died very suddenly, costing the career of one of my colleagues.
2015-05-01T07:48:24Z jackdaniel: worse is better?
2015-05-01T07:48:39Z ehu: (and when I needed results, I'd ask him to run it for ABCL)
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2015-05-01T07:49:29Z beach: ehu: There is not much.  And most of it assumes the same old Unix-style OS that we have had for the past 40 years or more.
2015-05-01T07:49:56Z jackdaniel: ehu: yes, he also produced for me really helpfull comparisons - I just don't want to put too much on him, if I don't have to
2015-05-01T07:50:07Z kephra: beach, you are a CS research who know Lisp internals?
2015-05-01T07:50:27Z beach: kephra: I would think so, yes.
2015-05-01T07:51:03Z kephra hugs beach - perhaps you can tell me
2015-05-01T07:51:34Z ehu: hmm. he must be a bad scientist: he thinks he knows something; good scientists know that they don't know :-)
2015-05-01T07:51:56Z ehu runs
2015-05-01T07:52:15Z beach doesn't think CS is science, so he does not think of himself as a scientist.  
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2015-05-01T07:52:25Z kephra: I'm currently writing a new Scheme interpreter in JS - but I'm neither using McEval nor CPS - and nobody so far could tell me who did same path before, and whats the name of my interpreter
2015-05-01T07:53:47Z kephra: so, my hope is, beach - that I might explain how my interpreter works, and you might tell me: this had been done 196x by YXZ real url ;-)
2015-05-01T07:54:15Z kephra: pm, ok? beach
2015-05-01T07:54:42Z beach: kephra: I can try.  But you would be much better off reading "Lisp in Small Pieces".  It has several interpreters and several compilers.
2015-05-01T07:54:54Z beach: I am sure one of them would fit yours.
2015-05-01T07:54:56Z kephra: its none of them, I think
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2015-05-01T07:55:31Z beach: kephra: It is also possible that there is no generally-accepted name for all interpreters of that type.
2015-05-01T07:55:53Z kephra: could be: lets explain how my interpreter works
2015-05-01T07:55:55Z beach: kephra: So, anyway, go ahead and describe it.
2015-05-01T07:56:11Z kephra: first of all I have a stack of objects called code
2015-05-01T07:57:07Z kephra: new code is pushed on the stack, and the interpreter itself is non recursive while (code.pop()) { ... }
2015-05-01T07:57:42Z kephra: there are basically two kinds of code: q:eue codes, and r:esolve code
2015-05-01T07:57:55Z kephra: new code is mostly pushed as queue code
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2015-05-01T07:59:33Z beach: Your stack sounds like an ordinary explicit control stack, mostly used with compilers rather than interpreters.
2015-05-01T07:59:35Z kephra: queue code might be an number or string (do nothing), a symbol (lookup in environment), an expression (queue a resolve code and queue the parameters in reverse)
2015-05-01T08:00:24Z beach: Maybe not.
2015-05-01T08:00:33Z kephra: each code object has its own link to an environment, each code object has one or two stacks called pile and and queue objects have stack
2015-05-01T08:01:12Z kephra: the pile is the stack every return result is pushed to, the stack is the other side of the pile - the arguments of an expression to resolve
2015-05-01T08:02:05Z kephra: special forms are implemented Forth like using a build and a does part
2015-05-01T08:02:08Z beach: Sounds complicated.  The stack has objects on it that themselves have other stacks.
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2015-05-01T08:03:17Z beach: I have never heard of anything like that before.
2015-05-01T08:03:20Z kephra: echo code stack object is either queue, or resolve, has an environment stack, a stack called pile where to deliver returns, and if its a resolve code a stack called stack from where to get those
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2015-05-01T08:03:50Z White_Flame: the pile & stack are two ends of the same data structure?
2015-05-01T08:04:50Z White_Flame: ie, push onto the pile, pop that item off the stack after popping older things off
2015-05-01T08:04:52Z beach: kephra: You either need to clean up your terminology, or define it explicitly.  Why would a number have a link to an environment, for instance?
2015-05-01T08:04:53Z kephra: yes - White_Flame: all expressions push the results to their pile, while resolved commands get their arguments for this same stack
2015-05-01T08:05:20Z beach: And you need to define "resolve".
2015-05-01T08:05:53Z kephra: beach, a number does not a link to an environment. The queue code that evalutes the number (to itself) has an enviroment, because it could be a symbol
2015-05-01T08:06:44Z beach: kephra: You need to get your terminology straight.  You said "each code object has its own link to an environment".
2015-05-01T08:07:01Z beach: and "queue code might be an number"
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2015-05-01T08:07:45Z beach: Apparently, both arguments and expressions can be "resolved".  But normally arguments are objects that are computed from the evaluation of expressions.
2015-05-01T08:08:22Z kephra: lets say I have: (+ (* 2 3) 4)
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2015-05-01T08:09:20Z kephra: http://kephra.de/o3proto/unloop.html <- take a look at debug output (and HTML code contains scheme code)
2015-05-01T08:09:54Z beach: You still need to define your terminology.
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2015-05-01T08:11:18Z White_Flame: from what little I can gather so far, I'd say it's a novel convolution of functionally equivalent existing interpreter structure :)
2015-05-01T08:12:10Z kephra: I have a stack of code objects containing that are either queue or resolve code. The code is interpreted non recursive in a while pop code loop
2015-05-01T08:14:02Z kephra: new code is pushed to the stack as queue code - non special forms will queue their operants first in reverse order, and next queue their resolve code
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2015-05-01T08:14:55Z kephra: special forms, symbols and other things are already evaluted in queue
2015-05-01T08:15:56Z beach: kephra: It is very hard to understand what you are describing because you are not defining your terminology, and you might be using standard terms in non-standard ways.
2015-05-01T08:16:15Z kephra: each code object has its own link to an enviroment, and one link to a stack where to push results, and an optional stack for resolve commands where to get evaluted operatnts
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2015-05-01T08:17:50Z kephra: beach, perhaps a look in the source can help: function contCode in http://kephra.de/o3proto/o3scm.js
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2015-05-01T08:19:48Z kephra: beach, and well - I might have a terminolgy problem - it might look like a Scheme that is written by a Forth coder - so I have a CFA (code field area), NFA (name field area), MFA (macro field area), and lots of other odder acronyms
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2015-05-01T08:26:03Z beach: kephra: Looking at source will definitely not help unless the terminology is clear.
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2015-05-01T08:27:36Z kephra: http://kephra.de/o3proto/unloop.html <- did you look at the debug output - so queue and resolve are clear?
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2015-05-01T08:27:58Z beach: I looked at it, but I have no idea what queue and resolve mean.
2015-05-01T08:28:25Z beach: I mean a queue object is stacked, not queued, and I don't know the relationship between "resolve" and "evaluate".
2015-05-01T08:28:42Z beach: They can't be the same because you also "resolve" arguments, and arguments are already evaluated.
2015-05-01T08:28:47Z beach: etc, etc, etc.
2015-05-01T08:29:19Z beach: number is an object, every object has a link to an environment, but numbers don't have a link to an environment.
2015-05-01T08:29:23Z kephra: every expression starts with a queue command, non special forms that have operants, will queue their operatants, and a resolve of them
2015-05-01T08:29:53Z kephra: beach, every code object has a link to enviromnent
2015-05-01T08:30:04Z kephra: a number is not a code object (directly)
2015-05-01T08:30:07Z beach: This is the first time we hear about a "queue command".  Before you had "resolve commands" but not "queue commands".
2015-05-01T08:30:12Z beach: It goes on and on and on.
2015-05-01T08:30:12Z kephra: but a code object can contain a number
2015-05-01T08:30:19Z beach: You really need to define your terminology.
2015-05-01T08:30:43Z kephra: <kephra> there are basically two kinds of code: q:eue codes, and r:esolve code <- 2nd line of my explaination
2015-05-01T08:30:47Z beach: You said "queue code might be an number or string"
2015-05-01T08:31:06Z beach: kephra: I think you need to go back and define your terminology.
2015-05-01T08:31:47Z kephra: ok, a bit slower: code is a stack of commands, each command is either q:eue or r:resolve
2015-05-01T08:31:48Z beach: You really can't expect anyone to understand what you are saying when you don't define your terminology and you contradict what you previously said.
2015-05-01T08:32:21Z beach: Why are these commands called queue and resolve?
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2015-05-01T08:32:30Z beach: As opposed to blue and green for instance?
2015-05-01T08:32:33Z kephra: each command has an operation, e.g. a number, symbol, form, a link to the enviromnent stack, and a link to a stack called pile where to return its results
2015-05-01T08:33:02Z beach: kephra: This is the first time you use the word "operation".
2015-05-01T08:33:04Z kephra: and if its a resolve command it has a link to a stack called stack
2015-05-01T08:33:21Z beach: Do you see what I am saying?
2015-05-01T08:33:29Z kephra: i've subsumed this under "code"
2015-05-01T08:33:52Z beach: Go back, write it down in the form of a coherent document.  Then we can talk.
2015-05-01T08:34:31Z kephra: i'm a coder - not a scientist - i founded two universities ( UNAM and internation university Bremen ) but never made a degree - i'm not a paper writer
2015-05-01T08:35:11Z beach: Then I am afraid we have a problem.  Because you can't expect anyone to understand it otherwise.
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2015-05-01T08:36:13Z kephra: I could translate it into pseudocode, if that helps?
2015-05-01T08:36:42Z kephra: but my writing, regardless if German, English or Frisian is horrible
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2015-05-01T08:40:03Z beach: kephra: Good communication skills in some natural language are absolutely necessary in order to communicate any aspect of programming.
2015-05-01T08:40:49Z kephra: I can explain things face to face - on paper
2015-05-01T08:41:11Z kephra: and sometimes I even find people who understand my written words
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2015-05-01T08:41:50Z beach: Great!
2015-05-01T08:42:06Z kephra: do you think pseudocode might help?
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2015-05-01T08:42:22Z beach: Not unless the terminology is clearly defined first.
2015-05-01T08:42:38Z kephra: you can query each term - if unclear
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2015-05-01T08:44:11Z beach: Maybe I'm old school or impatient or something, but I need a document that I can read and search for the meaning of terms.  Only when the terminology is well defined and coherent can I start to understand what is going on.  Maybe you have better luck with someone else.
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2015-05-01T08:46:43Z kephra: 😃
2015-05-01T08:48:13Z Shinmera: beach: Once I'm "done" with my markless specification, I really want you to read it for exactly this reason.
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2015-05-01T08:48:40Z beach: Shinmera: Excellent!
2015-05-01T08:48:41Z Shinmera: Turns out, trying to be precise about a markup spec is really difficult.
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2015-05-01T08:48:56Z beach: I shall have a good time reading it then. :)
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2015-05-01T08:49:34Z beach: I am afraid I am a disappointment to kephra, but I am trying to be as clear about it as I possibly can.
2015-05-01T08:49:59Z Shinmera: I tried to read up, but I have no idea what anything is of any that was described, so I don't think I can be of help either :/
2015-05-01T08:50:23Z beach: Whew!  I was afraid that I was losing it or something.
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2015-05-01T08:51:34Z beach: When can I expect the specification?
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2015-05-01T08:52:22Z Shinmera: I've been working on it for some months now (though I haven't done anything to it last month... too busy), and I'm not close to done, so, probably quite a while.
2015-05-01T08:52:40Z beach: OK.  I'll be here.
2015-05-01T08:52:47Z beach: [I hope]
2015-05-01T08:53:02Z Shinmera: I can give you a draft to read once I have the major road block of the moment worked out.
2015-05-01T08:53:14Z beach: Up to you.
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2015-05-01T09:27:56Z beach: OK, so I understand that there are no takers for my suggested project "BCL".  But I would like to know whether people generally think it is a good idea, or just some useless suggestion.
2015-05-01T09:28:05Z beach: Let me show the suggestion again:
2015-05-01T09:28:39Z beach: So here is a possible project to end all bootstrapping debates: BCL (Bootstrap Common Lisp).  Written in highly-portable C.  Emphasis on simplicity and maintainability.  Interpreted.  Using Boehm GC.  No TCO.  No immediate objects.  All objects have the same basic layout as standard-object.  Using the strictest limits that the Common Lisp HyperSpec allows such as just single-float, minimum number of return values.  Single threaded.
2015-05-01T09:28:39Z beach: Etc.
2015-05-01T09:30:57Z kephra: http://kephra.de/o3proto/Implementation.html <- beach I tried on an annotated simplified code
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2015-05-01T09:32:27Z SAL9000: beach: sounds like a great idea
2015-05-01T09:32:44Z beach: kephra: Looks very neat and tidy.
2015-05-01T09:32:52Z beach: SAL9000: Thanks.
2015-05-01T09:33:25Z kephra: beach, mainly deleted all the error catching
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2015-05-01T09:34:13Z beach: kephra: What language is it?
2015-05-01T09:34:19Z kephra: javascript
2015-05-01T09:34:31Z beach: Oh, right.  I guess you said that.
2015-05-01T09:35:14Z kephra: http://kephra.de/o3proto/r4rs-subset.html <- take a look at current subset - I guess I'll be finished with r4rs regression test end of next week
2015-05-01T09:35:49Z beach: kephra: You understand that this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, right?
2015-05-01T09:35:50Z kephra: the drop: debug is caused by the #;( reader macro )
2015-05-01T09:36:21Z kephra: yes, but Lisp and Scheme are similar when it comes to the question: how to implement it
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2015-05-01T09:40:14Z kephra: beach, btw - i've told, thats its Scheme (look like) in the beginning - and offered pm as alternative
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2015-05-01T10:10:06Z willemsh: hi
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2015-05-01T10:19:13Z beach: Hello willemsh.
2015-05-01T10:19:23Z willemsh: hi
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2015-05-01T10:22:04Z beach: willemsh: New here?
2015-05-01T10:22:14Z willemsh: yes
2015-05-01T10:22:34Z ehu: welcome
2015-05-01T10:22:42Z willemsh: thanks
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2015-05-01T10:23:16Z beach: It's a bit slow.  The US-of-Asians are asleep and the Yerpeans are celebrating Mayday.
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2015-05-01T10:23:48Z willemsh: yes me too
2015-05-01T10:23:51Z kephra sings mayday mayday - please communist party - safe our souls ;-)
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2015-05-01T10:25:41Z willemsh: im looking for a portable lisp to play with
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2015-05-01T10:26:09Z H4ns: willemsh: what do you mean by "portable" exactly?
2015-05-01T10:26:41Z willemsh: an portable version that just descompress on a folder a runs
2015-05-01T10:26:49Z kephra: willemsh, clisp is highly portable common lisp in C
2015-05-01T10:27:15Z willemsh: no, i mean portable installation not portable code
2015-05-01T10:27:33Z kephra: do you need the byte code image to be portable across platforms?
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2015-05-01T10:28:14Z willemsh: no no
2015-05-01T10:28:16Z H4ns: willemsh: both sbcl and ccl run from their own installation directory which you can put anywhere you like
2015-05-01T10:28:33Z H4ns: willemsh: sbcl needs some info to run that way, ccl does it that way out of the box.
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2015-05-01T10:28:55Z kephra: *ok* willemsh - because portable bytecode will likely run into the problem that you need to dynamically link an ffi to do any modern stuff
2015-05-01T10:28:59Z willemsh: sblcl appears to need some environment variables
2015-05-01T10:29:15Z willemsh: im just learning
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2015-05-01T10:29:37Z H4ns: willemsh: right.  the README should have the required information
2015-05-01T10:30:38Z willemsh: i've only read some articles and see some videos
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2015-05-01T10:32:08Z willemsh: so i want to learn to load libraries and some basic stuff
2015-05-01T10:32:30Z willemsh: do something more advanced than hello world
2015-05-01T10:32:39Z willemsh: ive tried emacs
2015-05-01T10:32:53Z H4ns: willemsh: you will need quicklisp https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/
2015-05-01T10:33:14Z H4ns: willemsh: with quicklisp, you can install quicklisp-slime-helper to get a working slime setup in emacs
2015-05-01T10:33:17Z kephra: willemsh, emacs is great, to get an idea of the power of Lisp (like languages)
2015-05-01T10:34:28Z willemsh: ive read that you can do very real work
2015-05-01T10:34:40Z willemsh: efficient and elegant in lisp
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2015-05-01T10:34:57Z H4ns: willemsh: can you press return only when you've finished your sentence, please?  thanks.
2015-05-01T10:35:34Z willemsh: im a mostly java/groovy developer. no problem with that H4ns
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2015-05-01T10:44:44Z pjb: kephra: i did that 2 stacks in the first version of my lse system.  i dropped it when i realised that it was just a compiler keeping recompiling the same code over and over.
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2015-05-01T10:46:26Z kephra: pjb, one can see it as a compiler with immediate execution, or as a non recursive continuation passing
2015-05-01T10:46:28Z pjb: kephra: now i just compile upon reading the source line an keep the bytecode vectors for the vm
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2015-05-01T10:46:58Z pjb: kephra: http://nasium-lse.ogamita.com/
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2015-05-01T10:51:05Z kephra: the main reason of coding a non recursive interpreter is, that AJAX requests are only send when the JS engine returns. So I can not use a simile McEval, but basically coded a non recursive CPS interpreter that handles the stacks by hand
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2015-05-01T10:51:46Z kephra: at least it feels like CPS: I get tail optimization, lexical scoping, and continuations for free
2015-05-01T10:51:59Z pjb: cecece --> ccceee
2015-05-01T10:52:06Z jackdaniel: anyone will be kind enough to proofread ecl quarterly? (http://ix.io/ieM) thanks :-)
2015-05-01T10:52:33Z pjb: it's the same, only you'd use a little more space for the bytecode vector.
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2015-05-01T10:56:45Z kephra: pjb, LSD/LSE sounds like an Assurancetourix language
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2015-05-01T10:57:48Z pjb: it was developped in the early 70s on iris80 and minicomputers originally.
2015-05-01T10:58:17Z kephra: *oh* I though on a Questar or Micral
2015-05-01T10:58:32Z pjb: no, they went later.
2015-05-01T10:58:39Z kephra: *ah*
2015-05-01T10:59:04Z kephra: pm ok, to explain what I mean with Assurancetourix effect?
2015-05-01T10:59:13Z kephra: did you read the comics?
2015-05-01T10:59:15Z pjb: yes
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2015-05-01T11:18:05Z beach: jackdaniel: For starters, the first line says "MONTHLY". :)
2015-05-01T11:19:11Z beach: jackdaniel: "make little more noise" -> "make a little more noise"
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2015-05-01T11:19:36Z H4ns: "little more"?  "little" or "more" maybe?
2015-05-01T11:20:23Z beach: Or "a bit more"
2015-05-01T11:20:30Z beach: Something like that.
2015-05-01T11:21:20Z beach: "This is how the ECL Quarterly idea was born" maybe.
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2015-05-01T11:22:09Z beach: "anything, what is slightly" -> "anything that is slightly" (no comma)
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2015-05-01T11:23:03Z beach: "such materials will be also published" -> "such material will also be published" ("material" in singular form I think).
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2015-05-01T11:24:22Z beach: "After 13.3.7 release" -> "After the 13.3.7 release"
2015-05-01T11:24:30Z beach: er, 15.
2015-05-01T11:25:51Z jackdaniel: thanks :)
2015-05-01T11:26:26Z beach: "we have updated libraries, which we depend on" -> "libraries which we depend on" (no comma).  If you put a comma in there, it means "we have updated libraries", and we really depend on libraries".  Without the comma, it means "we have updated those libraries that we depend on".
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2015-05-01T11:26:39Z beach: In fact, purists would suggest you use "that" instead of "which".
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2015-05-01T11:27:09Z beach: In general, you have too many commas.  You should split your commas with drmeister, because he uses too few.
2015-05-01T11:27:36Z jackdaniel: ^_^
2015-05-01T11:27:43Z beach: "There was also update of GMP" -> "There was also an update of GMP"
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2015-05-01T11:28:42Z beach: "we have also reworked .. macros" -> "we have also reworked the .. macros"
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2015-05-01T11:30:04Z beach: "Experimental branch contains" -> "The experimental branch contains" or "An experimental brtanch contains"
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2015-05-01T11:30:26Z beach: I'll read more later.  I need to call my brother.
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2015-05-01T11:32:13Z pillton: Is there an equivalent of named-readtable for managing *features* ?
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2015-05-01T11:36:32Z Xach: pillton: that locally binds *features* for the scope of a file?
2015-05-01T11:37:03Z pillton: Yeah. I want to use #+ and #- but without polluting *features*.
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2015-05-01T11:38:56Z Xach: pillton: Xof wrote a paper about a good way to manage *features*. I think his method would help avoid thinking of it as pollution.
2015-05-01T11:39:19Z pillton: Xach: Cheers. I will check it out.
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2015-05-01T11:41:20Z Xach: pillton: http://jcsu.jesus.cam.ac.uk/~csr21/papers/features.pdf
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2015-05-01T11:42:21Z pillton: Xach: Thanks. I was just about to ask.
2015-05-01T11:42:26Z jackdaniel: beach: thanks, notes incorporated
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2015-05-01T11:56:06Z Xach: luis: is there to be a new slime release soon?
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2015-05-01T12:00:45Z jlbhshluekg: .
2015-05-01T12:00:45Z jlbhshluekg: did usa intelligence supply isis with weapons like they did with al-qaeda to justify creating wars?
2015-05-01T12:00:45Z jlbhshluekg: did usa excute the creative mess in the middle east like they said they will, does the creative mess include explosions with uncertain responsibles to create wars?
2015-05-01T12:00:45Z jlbhshluekg: plz, send my qs to help limiting usa & israel aggression against others& may then lessen number of people killed in the middle east.
2015-05-01T12:00:45Z jlbhshluekg: .did usa intelligence supply isis with weapons like they did with al-qaeda to justify creating wars?
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2015-05-01T12:01:25Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach
2015-05-01T12:01:30Z Xach has set mode +b *!*ogryof@197.194.141.*
2015-05-01T12:01:32Z jlbhshluekg [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (jlbhshluekg)
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2015-05-01T12:01:43Z p_l: oh, you were faster. Thanks
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2015-05-01T12:37:37Z willemsh: hi
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2015-05-01T12:50:45Z theos: beach thanks for that link the other day. (lispOS)
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2015-05-01T13:51:45Z matthavard: Does common lisp have a shortcut for (first (last list))?
2015-05-01T13:51:57Z H4ns: matthavard: no
2015-05-01T13:52:03Z matthavard: darn
2015-05-01T13:52:29Z H4ns: if you need it often enough to want such a shortcut, you're doing it wrong :)
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2015-05-01T13:53:05Z matthavard: H4ns: Even if I write a little `(defun last-el (list) (first (last list)))` and use that instead?
2015-05-01T13:53:31Z matthavard: I should probably have my list in the reverse order of what it is currently if I constantly need the last element
2015-05-01T13:54:07Z H4ns: matthavard: well, if you know that your lists are short, this might work, but in general, accessing the last element of a list is slow because the whole list needs to be traversed every time
2015-05-01T13:54:36Z H4ns: matthavard: if you always need the tail, then consider reversing it.  if you need to access both ends often, consider using a vector.
2015-05-01T13:55:14Z matthavard: H4ns: That makes sense.  Vector literals are #(1 2 3) right?
2015-05-01T13:55:28Z H4ns: matthavard: correct.
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2015-05-01T13:55:33Z matthavard: cool
2015-05-01T13:55:36Z matthavard: well thanks
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2015-05-01T14:19:32Z tcleval: does anyone have this Sussman videos? http://avxhome.se/ebooks/Adventures_in_Advanced_Symbolic_Programming_Gerald_Jay_Sussman.html
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2015-05-01T14:32:10Z beach: theos: Sure.  Did you read it?
2015-05-01T14:32:54Z theos: beach read half of it and then i got distracted.
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2015-05-01T17:54:44Z Xach: easye: darn, i'm sad we didn't get you in on the key signing party at els
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2015-05-01T19:08:33Z Xof: someone should organize another one
2015-05-01T19:09:24Z Shinmera: I still have four keybase invites to give out too.
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2015-05-01T20:38:18Z drmeister: Xof: els was a great meeting
2015-05-01T20:38:48Z drmeister: I enjoyed myself thoroughly
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2015-05-01T20:58:28Z Xof: thanks!  I am working on videos
2015-05-01T20:58:39Z katco: Xach: you created quicklisp, correct?
2015-05-01T20:58:41Z Xof: hopefully by the end of the weekend I will have a rough cut of one or two of them
2015-05-01T21:00:15Z drmeister: katco: Yes, Xach created quicklisp. To which we are all very grateful.
2015-05-01T21:00:53Z katco: Xach: drmeister: i was just going to say, thank you for creating it. it allowed me to finally explore CL :)
2015-05-01T21:01:28Z katco: Xach: just read your synopsis on ELS, and realized you obviously hung out here. i mostly lurk, so i'm not familiar with the regulars
2015-05-01T21:02:00Z drmeister: Excellent - I didn't want to leave you hanging there in case Xach was AFK
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2015-05-01T21:15:36Z bizarrefish: Elo
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2015-05-01T21:16:52Z failproofshark: bizarrefish: hello
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2015-05-01T21:19:19Z Brozo: sup bizarrefish
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2015-05-01T21:24:32Z bizarrefish: Brozo: Not much. Thinking about multithreading. How do you lisp guys deal with it?
2015-05-01T21:24:58Z Brozo: I'm more like a lisp boy if not a lisp baby
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2015-05-01T21:25:33Z bizarrefish: I quite like erlang's model - lets have state, but one at a time allowed in a module.
2015-05-01T21:25:46Z bizarrefish: I'm sadly a lisp fan
2015-05-01T21:26:14Z bizarrefish: I wrote a pleasant web app for a friend in clojure a few years back, but really haven't been active in it as much as I should.
2015-05-01T21:26:37Z Brozo: What's the deal with haskell? why does everyone make fun of it?
2015-05-01T21:26:48Z Brozo: I'm getting into emacs so I'm trying to pickup lisp
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2015-05-01T21:27:17Z Brozo: in that vein I'm a coding baby
2015-05-01T21:27:26Z p_l: Brozo: there's a big group of mathwankers that suck the life out of Haskell. Among other things. (And no, I don't mean the guys who actually know adv. math)
2015-05-01T21:27:50Z bizarrefish: Brozo: Because every single ad-hoc pattern you or I have ever come up with, embedded deep in the fabric of our mess of code, the haskell guys have extracted and given a proper name and definition. Meaning they have a lot of words to learn :P
2015-05-01T21:28:18Z bizarrefish: Such as zygohistomorphic prepromorphism
2015-05-01T21:28:32Z bizarrefish: https://wiki.haskell.org/Zygohistomorphic_prepromorphisms
2015-05-01T21:28:37Z nyef: Wow, giving smug lisp weenies a good name?
2015-05-01T21:28:54Z p_l: nyef: hmm?
2015-05-01T21:28:57Z failproofshark: i still dont understand the burrito monoid jokes
2015-05-01T21:29:06Z bizarrefish: failproofshark: I believe that's monads
2015-05-01T21:29:08Z Brozo: weird
2015-05-01T21:29:12Z nyef: Well, clearly the smug haskell weenies are worse. d-:
2015-05-01T21:29:22Z p_l: bizarrefish: except haskell monads are not monads
2015-05-01T21:29:26Z failproofshark: bizarrefish: yes
2015-05-01T21:29:32Z jlarocco: hahaha, is that Haskell thing real?
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2015-05-01T21:29:59Z bizarrefish: Haskellers i've seen are generally humble. There's a thing about haskell, you need to leave your ego behind. You use it, you see god, you feel tiny, you feel inadequate.
2015-05-01T21:30:15Z failproofshark: thats... what she said?
2015-05-01T21:30:22Z failproofshark: i dont understand humor
2015-05-01T21:30:27Z bizarrefish: failproofshark: If by she, you mean GHC.
2015-05-01T21:30:27Z p_l: bizarrefish: dunno if you spent as much time at Queen Mother's Library with the old haskell books as me, but learning that the "monads" were a hack to remove worse things :)
2015-05-01T21:30:28Z failproofshark: i try though
2015-05-01T21:30:43Z p_l: was fun
2015-05-01T21:30:48Z bizarrefish: p_l: Let me guess, they had another way of doing IO before
2015-05-01T21:30:54Z p_l: bizarrefish: it involved time travel
2015-05-01T21:30:57Z bizarrefish: hmm
2015-05-01T21:31:07Z p_l: at least in the example code
2015-05-01T21:31:35Z failproofshark: did the time travel function take unix time stamps?
2015-05-01T21:31:54Z katco: is there a way to allocate/assign both values of this in a let statement?: (split-sequence:split-sequence #\Space my-str :count 2)
2015-05-01T21:32:25Z p_l: Brozo: generally, I'd separate Haskellers into mostly two or three camps - "normal programmers", "crazy mathematicians who know their stuff and do research", and "math wankers". Guess which ones are most vocal and setting tone :|
2015-05-01T21:32:27Z bizarrefish: p_l: Can't have time existing in haskell
2015-05-01T21:32:30Z nyef: katco: Sortof, but you might be better off with MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND.
2015-05-01T21:32:33Z bizarrefish: That's almost as bad as state
2015-05-01T21:33:04Z Brozo: p_l: aren't the wankers always the noisiest?
2015-05-01T21:33:07Z katco: nyef: alright, i'll go ahead and use that. ty!
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2015-05-01T21:33:42Z p_l: Brozo: unfortunately
2015-05-01T21:35:33Z failproofshark: ah time
2015-05-01T21:35:42Z failproofshark: i cant help but think of that "dont hug me im scared" video
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2015-05-01T21:50:54Z p_l: bizarrefish: btw, nice to see you again :)
2015-05-01T21:52:12Z bizarrefish: And yoursel
2015-05-01T21:52:14Z bizarrefish: -f
2015-05-01T21:52:29Z bizarrefish: It sure is lonely here in the internet
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2015-05-01T21:52:44Z bizarrefish: :)
2015-05-01T21:52:58Z Shinmera: Obviously, since everyone else is on the internet.
2015-05-01T21:53:31Z Brozo: except all the cool kids, nerds
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2015-05-01T21:54:37Z bizarrefish: I used to have human form, then I got digitized in an accident involving a Java 7 upgrade
2015-05-01T21:54:43Z bizarrefish: :<
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2015-05-01T21:55:43Z Brozo: it wasnt an accident
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2015-05-01T22:00:44Z matthavard: I started reading Paul Graham's On Lisp but I think he uses an older implementation of Common Lisp.  I'm using SBCL.  What is a good way to reconcile this?  Will I be able to run the vast majority of the examples in the book?
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2015-05-01T22:02:45Z pnpuff: Harder,Better,Faster,Stronger / Lose Yourself to Dance
2015-05-01T22:02:51Z p_l: matthavard: the examples should all work, it's not so much a language version as stylistic choices iirc
2015-05-01T22:03:05Z Shinmera: matthavard: I think the only problem that can occur is with the continuation passing macros.
2015-05-01T22:03:09Z Shinmera: See http://www.cliki.net/On%20lisp
2015-05-01T22:04:04Z pnpuff: Anthrax - Pipeline
2015-05-01T22:05:26Z pnpuff: ops sorry... I was thinking to be on #lispcafe :-(
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2015-05-02T03:29:27Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-05-02T03:37:46Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2015-05-02T03:59:49Z drmeister: Hi beach.
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2015-05-02T05:13:22Z protist: I made an html generation tool a while ago...what would be a decent name for it?
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2015-05-02T05:13:42Z protist: it is dynamic...uses list structures
2015-05-02T05:14:09Z protist: function rather than macro based...to be list interpolation friendly
2015-05-02T05:16:10Z beach: protist: Naming things is one of the hardest parts of programming.
2015-05-02T05:16:31Z beach: protist: For a project, I typically look for "words" that have few hits on Google.
2015-05-02T05:16:37Z protist: beach: agreed...not sure whether to use a descriptive name or one with attitude
2015-05-02T05:16:42Z beach: Minor misspellings are good for that.
2015-05-02T05:16:49Z protist: beach: ah
2015-05-02T05:17:18Z paul0: protist, cl-html-generatr
2015-05-02T05:17:24Z beach: And, I have an additional constraint, i.e., that the name contain "cl".
2015-05-02T05:17:31Z protist: beach: :)
2015-05-02T05:17:37Z paul0: a name that is web2.0 friendly
2015-05-02T05:17:45Z protist: beach: that name seems good, sounds official
2015-05-02T05:17:55Z beach: which one?
2015-05-02T05:18:00Z beach: I didn't suggest any.
2015-05-02T05:18:07Z protist: beach: I meant paul0 cl-html-generatr
2015-05-02T05:19:39Z beach: It sounds pretty bad to me actually.
2015-05-02T05:19:50Z protist: beach: I'm open to suggestions :)
2015-05-02T05:20:14Z protist: beach: compared to these names, I would download it first http://www.cliki.net/HTML%20generator
2015-05-02T05:20:24Z protist: beach: if only because the name is suggestive
2015-05-02T05:21:56Z protist: I tried durian for the first time today.... cl-durian sounds cool
2015-05-02T05:22:01Z protist: isn't suggestive at all though
2015-05-02T05:24:28Z beach: I would have tried something like "clarkup", but it gets hits on Google, so it's out.
2015-05-02T05:38:02Z Fare: protist: do we need yet another html generation tool?
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2015-05-02T05:38:17Z protist: Fare: I already made it haha
2015-05-02T05:38:19Z beach: Fare: Hi.  Is there something wrong with Tunes?
2015-05-02T05:38:28Z Fare: beach: me
2015-05-02T05:38:35Z beach: Fare: Oh?
2015-05-02T05:38:39Z protist: Fare: I made it because I didn't like the way the others worked...was just for me
2015-05-02T05:38:54Z beach: The log bot seems to have a problem.
2015-05-02T05:38:55Z Fare: what's different about it?
2015-05-02T05:38:56Z protist: Fare: but I want to learn about submitting to quicklisp now
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2015-05-02T05:39:26Z protist: Fare: uses list structures instead of macros...intended to be used with backtick so you can interpolate parts in
2015-05-02T05:39:33Z Fare: beach, oh, the bot is down again?
2015-05-02T05:39:42Z protist: Fare: maybe there is something like that out there, didn't see one I liked
2015-05-02T05:39:46Z beach: Fare: It was last I checked.
2015-05-02T05:40:14Z Fare: I see the process /usr/bin/perl -w /users/nef/.clog/clog running
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2015-05-02T05:40:49Z beach: Fare: It stopped creating files sometime 15.04.30.
2015-05-02T05:40:51Z protist: Fare: so like (html `(html (h1 "Hello World") (body (p ,stringvar))))
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2015-05-02T05:42:03Z protist: Fare: it is more interesting when you call functions within, and when you interpolate things like ,@(when cookie `(,(userbanner cookie)))
2015-05-02T05:42:08Z Fare: I seem not to be root anymore on bespin.org :-(
2015-05-02T05:43:06Z protist: Fare: that way the banner would be made if there is a cookie....if not then the `when' fails and you splice nil into the list structure (adding nothing)
2015-05-02T05:46:14Z Fare: I sent an email to the sysadmin...
2015-05-02T05:47:13Z Fare: protist: I remember fixing the html output of araneida / cliki, that was following this principle
2015-05-02T05:47:38Z Fare: except danb's original code was quadratic or such
2015-05-02T05:48:03Z Fare: by outputing to a stream rather than concatenating strings, I made it linear again.
2015-05-02T05:48:16Z Fare: the code is still in exscribe.
2015-05-02T05:48:25Z Fare: oh — have you seen exscribe?
2015-05-02T05:48:38Z Fare: btw, has anyone tried sly vs slime ?
2015-05-02T05:49:05Z protist: —?
2015-05-02T05:50:39Z protist: Fare: yeah mine is quadratic at the moment as well
2015-05-02T05:50:45Z protist: Fare: should fix that :p
2015-05-02T05:51:47Z protist: Fare: I don't see an example of Araneida's list structures on http://www.cliki.net/araneida
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2015-05-02T05:57:41Z Fare: protist: araneida is practically dead
2015-05-02T05:57:56Z Fare: but you can look at exscribe's html-dumper
2015-05-02T05:58:01Z Fare: which is derived from araneida
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2015-05-02T06:07:13Z beach: Fare: The email to the sysadmin is to address the log problem?
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2015-05-02T06:16:50Z Fare: beach: yes
2015-05-02T06:19:04Z beach: Fare: Great!  Thanks!
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2015-05-02T06:22:11Z protist: Fare: fixed mine to not be quadratic :)
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2015-05-02T06:38:43Z Fare: protist, you mean, now?
2015-05-02T06:38:55Z protist: Fare: yeah :)
2015-05-02T06:39:03Z Fare sees that exscribe has bitrotten. Sigh.
2015-05-02T06:39:17Z protist: Fare: not quadratic anymore, I was being lazy when I made it that way :p
2015-05-02T06:39:48Z protist: Fare: now I'm trying to package everything up as a system, I've never done this before
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2015-05-02T06:40:11Z protist: Fare: when i use asdf:load-system I get an error about one of my variables not being visible
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2015-05-02T06:40:34Z protist: Fare: I don't have this problem when i clisp -i main.lisp and then (use-package
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2015-05-02T06:52:04Z Fare: looks like a bug in the latest sbcl that breaks exscribe. Sigh.
2015-05-02T06:52:25Z Fare: protist: lisp paste?
2015-05-02T06:52:39Z Fare: package issue?
2015-05-02T06:53:01Z protist: Fare: just a second...just made some changes
2015-05-02T06:55:42Z protist: Fare: ah I got it to work
2015-05-02T06:55:55Z protist: Fare: it was something strange about variable scoping with a macro
2015-05-02T06:55:56Z Fare: ;   READ error during COMPILE-FILE: #<SB-IMPL::FORM-TRACKING-STREAM {1007ECB1C3}> is not positionable(in form starting at file-position: 17400)
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2015-05-02T06:55:59Z Fare: looks bad
2015-05-02T06:56:03Z protist: Fare: but I decided the macro wasn't needed :)
2015-05-02T06:56:33Z protist: Fare: was making a case analysis with a macro....switched to a hash table like I should have been using
2015-05-02T06:58:30Z Fare: apparently, I can no longer use SB-GRAY:STREAM-LINE-COLUMN on a SB-IMPL::FORM-TRACKING-STREAM
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2015-05-02T07:17:36Z protist: Fare: just added legible indentation
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2015-05-02T07:18:51Z Fare: wonderful, ccl won't run exscribe because it insists on interpreting option -I its own way.
2015-05-02T07:19:07Z Fare: and clisp won't run it because of some weird bug with its own fasl.
2015-05-02T07:19:55Z Fare: cmucl will have trouble with asdf upgrade
2015-05-02T07:19:59Z protist: Fare: my tag names are in all caps....I suppose that doesn't matter because it is html
2015-05-02T07:20:02Z protist: Fare: hmmm
2015-05-02T07:20:07Z Fare: it's like, massive bitrot all around
2015-05-02T07:21:09Z Fare: happily, lispworks to the rescue :-/
2015-05-02T07:21:13Z protist: Fare: I think I am going to go with cl-durian
2015-05-02T07:21:17Z protist: Fare: as the name
2015-05-02T07:21:39Z protist: Fare: do capital tagnames bother you?
2015-05-02T07:21:44Z Fare: on the one hand, I love that portable CL scripting is possible, so I can try all those different implementations
2015-05-02T07:21:50Z Fare: on the other hand...
2015-05-02T07:21:58Z protist: Fare: I mean you could just use quotes or do |symbol|
2015-05-02T07:22:08Z Fare: protist: I believe the xml standards say it should be lower-case
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2015-05-02T07:22:20Z protist: Fare: that is xml...but ah
2015-05-02T07:22:25Z Fare: even though the old html documents advertised uppercase.
2015-05-02T07:22:26Z protist: Fare: ok
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2015-05-02T07:22:41Z Fare: exscribe's html-dumper outputs valid xhtml
2015-05-02T07:22:50Z protist: Fare: well I could coerce everything to lowercase...but common lisp reads symbols in in caps
2015-05-02T07:23:08Z protist: Fare: coercing to lowercase seems like it would restrict people more than help
2015-05-02T07:23:15Z protist: Fare: as they can use quotes or |this|
2015-05-02T07:23:38Z Fare: protist: you can use *print-case* :downcase
2015-05-02T07:23:53Z protist: Fare: I'm not sure about making that a default...hmmm
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2015-05-02T07:24:14Z protist: Fare: because if someone is making xml....then wouldn't they want to be able to write camel case?
2015-05-02T07:24:41Z Fare: in html-dumper, I explicitly string-downcase the symbols
2015-05-02T07:24:52Z Fare: I didn't care about full xml, though.
2015-05-02T07:25:44Z protist: Fare: I'll add a *tag-letter-case* I think
2015-05-02T07:26:57Z Fare: welcome to hell
2015-05-02T07:27:24Z protist: or *tag-case*
2015-05-02T07:27:44Z protist: hmmmm
2015-05-02T07:28:33Z protist: *force-tag-lowercase*
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2015-05-02T07:34:28Z protist: Fare: now there is a *force-tags-lowercase*
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2015-05-02T07:40:27Z protist: anyone have more thoughts on names before I go with cl-durian?
2015-05-02T07:40:31Z protist: I'm not even sure on it
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2015-05-02T07:43:57Z Zhivago: Presumably it is intended to convey that it stinks?
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2015-05-02T07:45:28Z protist: Zhivago: :P
2015-05-02T07:45:45Z protist: Zhivago: just thought it sounded cool :p
2015-05-02T07:48:20Z Zhivago: How about cl-dur14n -- that would be extra cool.
2015-05-02T07:49:01Z Zhivago: cl-yahms mighth work.
2015-05-02T07:49:14Z protist: haha :)
2015-05-02T07:49:21Z Zhivago: Then you can pronounce it like clams, only with a deranged kind of drawl.
2015-05-02T07:49:36Z Zhivago: Yet Another HTML Mangling System.
2015-05-02T07:49:38Z protist: someone in ##programming suggested HTGL -- hypertext generating language
2015-05-02T07:52:55Z protist: hmmm
2015-05-02T07:55:13Z protist: what does :serial do in a system definition?
2015-05-02T07:55:19Z protist: do I need it?
2015-05-02T07:56:06Z protist: is cl-html taken? ;P
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2015-05-02T07:56:36Z Zhivago: I believe that it does things serially rather than parallely.
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2015-05-02T08:06:41Z protist: was doing update-all-dists on quicklisp a bad idea?
2015-05-02T08:06:51Z protist: how much data am I downloading?
2015-05-02T08:06:53Z protist: lol
2015-05-02T08:08:47Z Fare: protist, if you have a package file, you probably need dependencies on it
2015-05-02T08:08:55Z Fare: :serial t is a trivial way to achieve that effect
2015-05-02T08:09:13Z protist: Fare: ah, my package has no dependencies
2015-05-02T08:09:32Z protist: Fare: well I do need to do the package.lisp before the main file
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2015-05-02T08:13:07Z protist: Fare: I'm still having trouble on the naming issue
2015-05-02T08:13:09Z protist: Fare: :/
2015-05-02T08:13:58Z Fare: dont-use-me-i-m-a-ripoff
2015-05-02T08:14:00Z PuercoPop: Fare: I've been using sly since its announcement. Being able to C-r like in bash the REPL is a huge convenience. So is multiple inspectors. I haven't missed the slime presentations and haven't found sly-buttons particularly buttons. Most bugs have been ironed out by now.
2015-05-02T08:14:36Z protist: maybe just cl-html-gen
2015-05-02T08:14:43Z Fare: buttons?
2015-05-02T08:14:44Z PuercoPop: s/buttons/useful/
2015-05-02T08:15:19Z Fare: ok, next time I install slime, it'll be sly instead
2015-05-02T08:15:37Z protist: uhg....cl-htmlgen exists
2015-05-02T08:16:04Z protist: cl-durian it is
2015-05-02T08:17:36Z Fare: protist, http://fare.livejournal.com/169346.html
2015-05-02T08:18:19Z PuercoPop: its called stickers, it is a new sly feature, basically you can annotate variables so when the code is run the values the variables take are saved and can be replayed, saving you the trouble to add print statments. (http://capitaomorte.github.io/sly/#SLY-Stickers)
2015-05-02T08:18:40Z protist: Fare: hmmmm
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2015-05-02T08:20:18Z ggole: protist: cl-exude-html
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2015-05-02T08:23:04Z protist: ggole: damn that would have been good
2015-05-02T08:23:12Z protist: ggole: just made the durian repo lol
2015-05-02T08:23:23Z ggole: ...
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2015-05-02T08:50:17Z jackdaniel: encodings in regard  of pathnames are horror
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2015-05-02T08:55:39Z Zhivago: current = current->next <- this is the move.
2015-05-02T08:55:42Z Zhivago: oops
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2015-05-02T09:08:46Z protist: Zhivago: Fare: beach: cl-durian is up...will work on improving the readme more later before I submit to quicklisp https://github.com/GordianNaught/cl-durian
2015-05-02T09:11:06Z Grue`: just how many html-generating libs are there?
2015-05-02T09:12:18Z protist: Grue`: lol
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2015-05-02T09:12:41Z Shinmera: Grue`: Too many.
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2015-05-02T09:12:47Z protist: Grue`: when I add some list interpolation examples you might see why mine is different/interesting
2015-05-02T09:13:48Z jackdaniel: hmph, if you don't count raw format, then 5 :D
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2015-05-02T10:48:57Z pjb: protist: compare with com.informatimago.common-lisp.html-generator.html
2015-05-02T10:49:18Z protist: what dot com?
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2015-05-02T10:50:25Z pjb: feel free to contribute patches to https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/master/common-lisp/html-generator/html-generators-in-lisp.txt
2015-05-02T10:50:35Z pjb: protist: quicklisp, gitlab, etc.
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2015-05-02T10:51:09Z pjb: com.informatimago.common-lisp.html-generator.html the downcased name of the package ;-)
2015-05-02T10:51:55Z pjb: I know it's confusing, but I've received a lot of complain from me pasting symbol names and package names in their normal form.
2015-05-02T10:52:12Z pjb: s/from/for/
2015-05-02T10:52:29Z protist: ah
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2015-05-02T10:53:44Z pjb: I mean, I understand that in 1970, when the first terminals with lowercase appeared, there was some snobish attitude against uppercase, but nowadays, with the nice fonts we have, I think we should accept both uppercase and lowercase on an equal footing.
2015-05-02T10:54:03Z protist: that is /similar/ to mine...mine does work differently though...and I indent my output https://github.com/GordianNaught/cl-durian
2015-05-02T10:54:28Z pjb: I would gradly accept a patch to that text file to mention it.
2015-05-02T10:54:34Z pjb: s/gra/gla/
2015-05-02T10:54:53Z protist: to mention my package?
2015-05-02T10:54:56Z pjb: I'm not japanese, just the left hand's hurting :-)
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2015-05-02T10:54:57Z pjb: Yes.
2015-05-02T10:56:26Z protist: I'll have to spend some time to think about a way to work a mention of it in :)
2015-05-02T10:56:38Z protist: I bookmarked it and will get back to you some time soon :)
2015-05-02T10:56:41Z pjb: ok
2015-05-02T10:56:57Z protist: ah I see you have a list of examples from each one at the bottom
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2015-05-02T10:59:12Z protist: pjb: it seems like all the examples are doing different things
2015-05-02T10:59:23Z protist: pjb: what should I be aiming for, exactly?
2015-05-02T10:59:36Z pjb: I just copy-pasted examples from the respective docs, IIRC.
2015-05-02T10:59:51Z pjb: Show a typical usage.
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2015-05-02T11:11:40Z protist: pjb: http://pastebin.com/edeVwbY0
2015-05-02T11:12:23Z jackdaniel: cl who has afaik optional flag for indentation
2015-05-02T11:12:30Z jackdaniel: cl-who°
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2015-05-02T11:13:24Z protist: pjb: and this is the github, might should have a link https://github.com/GordianNaught/cl-durian
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2015-05-02T11:24:16Z pjb: ok.
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2015-05-02T11:32:49Z pjb: protist: pushed.  Thanks.
2015-05-02T11:32:59Z protist: pjb: thank you :)
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2015-05-02T11:40:17Z jackdaniel: yeee, pathnames reworked :-) now cleanup ;_;
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2015-05-02T12:17:44Z borodust: hi, what is preferred way to bundle cl project for deployment?
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2015-05-02T12:18:36Z jackdaniel: yeah, quicklisp bundle :p
2015-05-02T12:19:07Z jackdaniel: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2015/04/new-feature-quicklisp-library-bundles.html
2015-05-02T12:19:15Z jackdaniel: brand new feature
2015-05-02T12:19:51Z borodust: yeah, i pretty much liked it, but it is intended for systems that are part of the ql
2015-05-02T12:20:13Z jackdaniel: doesn't it work with projects in $QL/local-projects ?
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2015-05-02T12:20:34Z jackdaniel: it's even in a post ;)
2015-05-02T12:20:53Z borodust: it works, i guess, but should i put all my local projects there?
2015-05-02T12:21:11Z borodust: that's pretty inconvenient
2015-05-02T12:21:41Z jackdaniel: ln -s /absolute/pathname/my-inconveniently-placed-project $QL/local-projects
2015-05-02T12:21:49Z borodust: hm-m
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2015-05-02T12:22:39Z antoszka: yay, I totally forgot about the new bundle feature
2015-05-02T12:22:43Z antoszka: it's way cool
2015-05-02T12:22:52Z borodust: will it bundle all projects that are there, or only ones i selected?
2015-05-02T12:23:18Z jackdaniel: ,tias (try it and see ®)
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2015-05-02T12:30:55Z borodust: nah, checked the thing
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2015-05-02T12:31:52Z borodust: first of all, ql-bundle thing isn't intended for local projects as per doc: "Bundling works only for systems available through Quicklisp"
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2015-05-02T12:32:31Z pjb: local projects are available thru quicklisp
2015-05-02T12:32:51Z borodust: i guess, more like thru asdf
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2015-05-02T12:33:09Z borodust: the second one is, all things in the local-projects included into the bundle: "Any file in the local-projects directory tree matching "*.asd" is added as a loadable system"
2015-05-02T12:33:33Z borodust: https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/bundles.html
2015-05-02T12:34:46Z borodust: what i want to do is to bundle all the things into one package (my local stuff and ql libs), push to server, compile/load bundle into sbcl there
2015-05-02T12:35:05Z jackdaniel: ,tias
2015-05-02T12:35:53Z borodust: asdf:monolithic-concatenate-source-op helps, but i cannot reliably load/compile that thing back
2015-05-02T12:36:22Z borodust: coz im doing smth wrong, but don't know what exactly
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2015-05-02T12:37:22Z failproofshark: hello all
2015-05-02T12:37:52Z failproofshark: borodust: theres a way to configure quicklisp/asd to find you're local projects if its not located in a nonstandard directory
2015-05-02T12:38:08Z borodust: so, basically, #'asdf:load-system works, but 'asdf:monolithic-concatenate-source-op and then 'asdf:monolithic-load-concatenated-source-op don't
2015-05-02T12:38:15Z failproofshark: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Configuring-ASDF-to-find-your-systems
2015-05-02T12:38:49Z borodust: that's not exactly what i asked :)
2015-05-02T12:38:53Z failproofshark: oh sorry
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2015-05-02T12:39:09Z borodust: i mean, i can load my system just fine locally
2015-05-02T12:39:35Z borodust: but i need it to bundle it with all deps into one package
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2015-05-02T12:39:52Z borodust: preferably, source package
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2015-05-02T12:40:11Z borodust: coz ofc i can dump lisp image, but that's too hardcore
2015-05-02T12:41:01Z borodust: and this blob is 81mb vs 3.6mb of uncompressed sources
2015-05-02T12:42:02Z jackdaniel still doesn't see, why ql bundles wouldn't work with your stuff put in local-projects
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2015-05-02T12:45:09Z borodust: first thing, i need to put every local project there, and every local project will be included in all bundles i made - bad thing
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2015-05-02T12:45:38Z borodust: second one, u just can't use #'ql:bundle-systems with local projects
2015-05-02T12:45:54Z borodust: i guess
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2015-05-02T12:46:13Z jackdaniel: first thing - you may symlink whole local-projects direcotry. second thing stays in contradiction with documentation
2015-05-02T12:46:54Z borodust: what i mean by first thingy, i don't need all my local projects in the bundle
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2015-05-02T12:47:08Z borodust: different bundles will have different local projects
2015-05-02T12:47:21Z jackdaniel: yes, but ql works on dependencies
2015-05-02T12:47:30Z jackdaniel: so bundle won't suck-in your unrelated projects
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2015-05-02T12:47:43Z jackdaniel: like it doesn't pull alexandria, when you quickload uffi
2015-05-02T12:47:44Z borodust: hmm, as per doc, it will
2015-05-02T12:48:03Z borodust: "Any file in the local-projects directory tree matching "*.asd" is added as a loadable system"
2015-05-02T12:48:05Z jackdaniel: we have obviously different understanding, thats why I suggested: ,tias
2015-05-02T12:48:16Z jackdaniel: and it's not added to bundle
2015-05-02T12:48:20Z borodust: hmm
2015-05-02T12:48:23Z jackdaniel: it is just "available" for quicklisp
2015-05-02T12:49:06Z borodust: ok, lets try with example
2015-05-02T12:49:15Z borodust: btw, what the ,tias is?)
2015-05-02T12:49:24Z jackdaniel: try it and see ©
2015-05-02T12:49:26Z borodust: ah
2015-05-02T12:49:38Z borodust: yeah, did it, lemme put it into words
2015-05-02T12:50:01Z jackdaniel: bb in 30minutes
2015-05-02T12:50:06Z borodust: k
2015-05-02T12:50:21Z borodust: cya
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2015-05-02T12:51:23Z borodust: i have local project named :clut (plz, don't ask why)
2015-05-02T12:51:29Z borodust: i can load it with asdf just fine
2015-05-02T12:51:42Z borodust: so everything for that is configured
2015-05-02T12:52:04Z borodust: and i can load it with ql:quickload
2015-05-02T12:52:07Z borodust: but
2015-05-02T12:53:14Z borodust: i created symlink to project in local-projects
2015-05-02T12:53:41Z borodust: unfortunately, (ql:bundle-systems '(:clut) :to "/tmp/clut") raises QL-BUNDLE:SYSTEM-NOT-FOUND
2015-05-02T12:54:11Z pjb: report a bug to quicklisp.
2015-05-02T12:54:39Z borodust: as per my understanding, that's conforming to docs, which are say "Bundling works only for systems available through Quicklisp"
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2015-05-02T12:54:54Z pjb: but it's still a bad feature.
2015-05-02T12:55:05Z pjb: call it a documented bug.
2015-05-02T12:56:23Z borodust: well, that's discussible, but i still need source bundle for the project)
2015-05-02T12:56:45Z borodust: how that was done before?
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2015-05-02T12:57:04Z dim: sounds like a wishlist item, that can be opened as an issue on github, right?
2015-05-02T12:57:07Z pjb: it wasn't this is a new feature
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2015-05-02T12:59:31Z nyef: Making your own bundles "by hand", if it were done at all.
2015-05-02T13:00:32Z borodust: yeah, i understand that, but cl has a long history, and i scared to think all that time bundling was done "by hand"
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2015-05-02T13:02:09Z borodust: im just not familiar with how that's done in the cl world
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2015-05-02T13:02:36Z nyef: How's it done in the C world? Or the Fortran world?
2015-05-02T13:02:49Z borodust: i can say, how this done in the java world
2015-05-02T13:03:27Z borodust: mvn clean deploy
2015-05-02T13:03:52Z nyef: And even THAT was an after-the-fact thing. A well after-the-fact thing.
2015-05-02T13:04:25Z borodust: but im not here to start holywar, i wanna know if there's known solution in the lisp world
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2015-05-02T13:06:36Z borodust: what i understand so far, there isnt
2015-05-02T13:07:00Z borodust: ql bundles seems very promising, but not yet exactly what i need
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2015-05-02T13:08:14Z nyef: I don't know that there isn't a known solution, but I don't know of one at this point.
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2015-05-02T13:11:05Z dim: borodust: what I've been using and seen using is building an image with all you need in there, so that instead of starting SBCL you start your own application
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2015-05-02T13:11:25Z dim: but I'm not sure what problem you need a solution for
2015-05-02T13:12:04Z dim: there's also an ASDF facility to bundle things into a single CL file, IIRC
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2015-05-02T13:12:31Z borodust: sbcl's save-lisp-and-die helps, but i don't like the final size of the blob, so i've thought i can deploy sources, which will be loaded into target lisp
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2015-05-02T13:13:32Z borodust: dim, yeah, i've used it (asdf:monolithic-concatenate-source-op)
2015-05-02T13:13:50Z dim: well compare the size of the new lisp with that of bare sbcl
2015-05-02T13:13:50Z borodust: but, i have problems loading that source back
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2015-05-02T13:13:57Z dim: it doesn't inflate by much IIRC
2015-05-02T13:14:24Z dim: so what's the difference in between shipping SBCL + source code and pre-compiled binary?
2015-05-02T13:14:27Z borodust: 81mb for #'save-lisp-and-die and 3.6mb for uncompressed sources
2015-05-02T13:14:56Z dim: 21M pgloader
2015-05-02T13:15:06Z dim: you're not compressing the image are you?
2015-05-02T13:15:30Z borodust: nope, just #'save-lisp...
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2015-05-02T13:16:07Z borodust: main problems are size and dependency on the version of the lisp env (sbcl)
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2015-05-02T13:16:08Z nyef: Isn't there a compressed core option for SLAD?
2015-05-02T13:16:19Z dim: I'm using buildapp with --compress-core
2015-05-02T13:16:43Z borodust: hmm
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2015-05-02T13:17:18Z dim: the amd64 sbcl package weigths 68,772.0 kB on debian
2015-05-02T13:17:19Z nyef: ... Yeah, :COMPRESSION with an integer from -1 to 9.
2015-05-02T13:17:21Z dim: https://packages.debian.org/sid/sbcl
2015-05-02T13:17:36Z dim: so a 21MB pgloader binary image is pretty good I would venture
2015-05-02T13:17:39Z borodust: yeah, i see, lemme check how much that helps
2015-05-02T13:18:00Z dim: 26,240.0 kBfor https://packages.debian.org/sid/pgloader
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2015-05-02T13:18:49Z dim: of course in the pgloader case my intended target is not typically lisp savvy, mostly they are scared about pgloader being written in CL; so the optimisation is real for them as they would never consider installing sbcl in the first place
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2015-05-02T13:19:48Z dim: borodust: using buildapp the pgloader binary doesn't depend on sbcl anymore, IIUC there's a copy of SBCL right in there (heck, I even compile lisp sources at runtime, so yeah, SBCL is all included)
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2015-05-02T13:23:54Z borodust: oh, i see
2015-05-02T13:24:14Z borodust: that kind of works: 17mb for the final blob
2015-05-02T13:24:53Z borodust: well, that's durable
2015-05-02T13:25:20Z borodust: *doable
2015-05-02T13:25:50Z borodust: or both
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2015-05-02T13:26:02Z dim: and I think save-lisp-and-die has been there in lisps for a very long time already, like back in the 60s or 70s?
2015-05-02T13:26:41Z dim: nowadays they are trying to have that at the OS level and it's called docker ;-)
2015-05-02T13:27:44Z borodust: yup, almost all cloud services now have this feature of dumping container image
2015-05-02T13:28:05Z borodust: that's still seems like workaround
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2015-05-02T13:29:02Z borodust: tnx for the hint with compression thingy
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2015-05-02T13:30:43Z dim: well in lisp at least you have all the flexibility and tooling at dev time, where you can change about anything in the running environement, live (code, class definitions, structures, parameters, variables, constants, anything can be live edited); so save-lisp-and-die allows for a very efficient and dynamic style of live programming, AFAIUI
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2015-05-02T13:31:16Z dim: (I'm not programming like that, I have files containing my definitions and I load them from there, not changing the state of the lisp image at run-time all from the REPL)
2015-05-02T13:31:57Z dim: modern linux containers are still eons away in terms of developpers oriented features the way I see it when compared to our classic envs
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2015-05-02T13:37:33Z borodust: tnx much for the help, guyz
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2015-05-02T13:42:37Z schjetne: While we're on the subject, what function would I call to start a REPL when executing an image? A cursory look into the SBCL manual and the hyperspec didn't come up with anything obvious.
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2015-05-02T13:43:26Z dim: what I've been doing is start a swank thread listening on some port, so that I can attach SLIME to it
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2015-05-02T13:45:02Z dim: (swank:create-server :port swank-port :style :spawn :dont-close t)
2015-05-02T13:45:30Z dim: in some cases,
2015-05-02T13:45:39Z dim: (let ((swank::*loopback-interface* "0.0.0.0")) (swank:create-server :port 4205 :style :spawn :dont-close t))
2015-05-02T13:45:49Z jackdaniel: swank approach is also portable
2015-05-02T13:45:53Z dim: when running from within a VM that's quite useful
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2015-05-02T13:56:33Z schjetne: dim: I'll probably do just that, when I daemonize it won't have a terminal anyway
2015-05-02T13:57:18Z dim: have a look at pgcharts for the demonizing parts maybe, if you want, it's a quite simple embedded webapp that I did some time ago
2015-05-02T13:57:25Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgcharts
2015-05-02T13:57:46Z schjetne: I've been using supervisord for my server processes, and it has a neat attach feature, but attaching directly from Emacs is better
2015-05-02T13:57:48Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgcharts/blob/master/src/pgcharts.lisp#L98
2015-05-02T13:57:55Z schjetne: I'll take a look
2015-05-02T13:58:04Z dim: that's where the start command is implemented, running in the background and all, using the daemon lib for that
2015-05-02T13:59:01Z schjetne: Looks neat, I'm using Postgres myself, so that might come in handy
2015-05-02T13:59:16Z dim: also I've been using my own command line argument processing code so that I have "commands" rather than the classic getopts behavior
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2015-05-02T14:01:37Z dim: lots of people here are using PostgreSQL when it comes to database, I would venture than CL users have good taste ;-)
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2015-05-02T14:10:22Z dim: just uploaded 17 quicklisp distribution as debian packages
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2015-05-02T14:57:35Z dim: and blogged about how I do that, in the hope to see fellow debian/CL users and packagers join the effort
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2015-05-02T15:56:44Z k-stz: I hope this is a no-brainer but do all libraries provided by quicklisp have a permissive license?
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2015-05-02T15:57:00Z k-stz: And If you have a project that depends on many such licenses does it suffice to mention them in an .asd file?
2015-05-02T15:57:48Z Bike: there are, like, GPL-licensed libraries in quicklisp if that's what you mean
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2015-05-02T16:00:09Z k-stz: Bike: I'm just worried that I need to check every libary I use and include their respective licenses somewhere in my projects root directory
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2015-05-02T16:00:47Z Shinmera: You won't have to include their libraries, but you might have to adapt your own license if you use, say, a GPL library.
2015-05-02T16:00:47Z Bike: such is intellectual property, i guess?
2015-05-02T16:01:06Z Shinmera: *you won't have to include their licenses
2015-05-02T16:01:14Z Shinmera: Since their license should be in their respective root.
2015-05-02T16:01:28Z k-stz: Shinmera: ooooh you are right
2015-05-02T16:01:43Z Shinmera: So, you will have to check if they aren't viral.
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2015-05-02T16:09:27Z dim: k-stz: some are GPL, some are AGPL, most are MIT or Artistic or LGPL
2015-05-02T16:10:05Z dim: beware of incompatibilities, in pgloader I know I had to skip some otherwise interesting libs so that I can claim "The PostgreSQL License", a kind of BSD 2 clauses
2015-05-02T16:11:55Z Shinmera: dim: Which licenses did you have to skip, out of curiosity?
2015-05-02T16:12:09Z dim: AGPL mainly (hi pjb)
2015-05-02T16:12:14Z jackdaniel: (ql:system-apropos :any-but '(:gpl :agpl)) would ocme in handy
2015-05-02T16:12:20Z Shinmera: Right, of course
2015-05-02T16:12:22Z jackdaniel: s/ocme/come/
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2015-05-02T16:14:26Z Bike: xach mandates license data, so that probably wouldn't be too hard
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2015-05-02T16:15:20Z jackdaniel: I think he mentioned that this is a features he want's to add, but don't know anything about priorities
2015-05-02T16:17:13Z dim: the hardest part of ql-to-deb was figuring out the debian/copyright files, really
2015-05-02T16:17:46Z dim: and it's nothing to do with QL per-se, it's more than CL authors are quite lazy about their licensing, find the real text often enough is a problem
2015-05-02T16:18:28Z dim: see https://github.com/dimitri/ql-to-deb/blob/master/packages/chunga/debian/copyright for an exemple of a nicely provided license
2015-05-02T16:19:16Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/ql-to-deb/blob/master/packages/ironclad/debian/copyright --- this one was harder to find out
2015-05-02T16:19:33Z jackdaniel: dim: why packages, if CL libraries work besides package managers? (thanks to ql)
2015-05-02T16:19:48Z jackdaniel: despite of° is maybe a better phrase
2015-05-02T16:20:19Z dim: jackdaniel: read the last 2 § of http://tapoueh.org/blog/2015/05/02-ql-to-deb
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2015-05-02T16:21:28Z jackdaniel: dim: thanks, understood :-)
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2015-05-02T16:28:31Z k-stz: just read a bit into sbcl's license and copying file. Quite lengthy
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2015-05-02T16:59:57Z bizarrefish: Hia ll
2015-05-02T17:00:00Z bizarrefish: *hi all
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2015-05-02T17:15:59Z protist: lparallel looks impressive :)
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2015-05-02T17:36:09Z pjb: schjetne: you can use com.informatimago.common-lisp.interactive.interactive:repl
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2015-05-02T17:40:24Z pjb: k-stz: you can use com.informatimago.tools.manifest:print-manifest
2015-05-02T17:40:44Z pjb: k-stz: in your asf you should only put the license of your system, not of your dependencies.
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2015-05-02T17:53:33Z k-stz: pjb: thanks, seems like most libraries show "UNKNOWN" as their license. The instances I checked contained licenses written by the authors themselves. For example cl-opengl
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2015-05-02T19:04:13Z francogrex: https://github.com/francogrex/jnil
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2015-05-02T20:13:50Z not_a_tiger: Does Common Lisp have a function which returns a list of integers in a fashion similar to `seq n1 n2`?
2015-05-02T20:14:25Z not_a_tiger: Or as a better example, equivalent to Emacs Lisp (number-sequence n1 n2)
2015-05-02T20:14:26Z Bike: (loop for i from n1 below n2 collecting i)
2015-05-02T20:15:10Z not_a_tiger: macro-licious
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2015-05-02T20:17:08Z not_a_tiger: What comment style should I use for small functions I share on the web?
2015-05-02T20:17:22Z Bike: comment style...?
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2015-05-02T20:18:22Z not_a_tiger: I've seen lots of semicolons in varying quantities and don't know.
2015-05-02T20:18:51Z Bike: let's see, there's a page somewhere
2015-05-02T20:18:52Z Bike: clhs ;
2015-05-02T20:18:52Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dd.htm
2015-05-02T20:19:01Z Bike: yaeh, second link in that.
2015-05-02T20:20:25Z not_a_tiger: That looks like exactly what I needed. Thank you very much, Bike.  :)
2015-05-02T20:20:48Z not_a_tiger: If I can't get my function working on my own, would it be okay to ask for help here?
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2015-05-02T20:22:24Z Bike: sure
2015-05-02T20:22:34Z Bike: use paste.lisp.org for anything more than a line long
2015-05-02T20:22:48Z not_a_tiger: Awesome, I'll bookmark that right now.
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2015-05-02T20:25:39Z paul0: what is the easiest way to parse xml with CL?
2015-05-02T20:26:11Z paul0: from time to time I decide to start a CL project, and I always forget how to use cxml
2015-05-02T20:26:37Z Shinmera: paul0: https://shinmera.github.io/plump
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2015-05-02T20:37:54Z remi`bd: nice
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2015-05-02T20:42:21Z paul0: Shinmera, plump and clss were what I was looking for! thanks!
2015-05-02T20:42:40Z Shinmera: paul0: Also have a look at lquery.
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2015-05-02T21:43:32Z not_a_tiger: I don't have Common Lisp installed on my machine. Is there any place I can run my code to test it?
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2015-05-02T21:44:03Z pjb: http://hubble.informatimago.com:8116/
2015-05-02T21:44:42Z pjb: not_a_tiger: but really, why wouldn't you install it locally?  It's 2015!
2015-05-02T21:46:32Z not_a_tiger: I first encounterd Lisp in 1984. It scared me so bad I'm just now returning to confront my fear.
2015-05-02T21:46:53Z not_a_tiger: I literally dropped out of college because I was so afraid.
2015-05-02T21:47:18Z Bike: i reserve fear for large animals and taxes, generally
2015-05-02T21:47:38Z not_a_tiger: Okay. Slight exaggeration, but it makes a nice dramatic story.
2015-05-02T21:47:49Z pjb: I fear more microscopic animals and mushrooms, but that's the general feeling yes.
2015-05-02T21:48:19Z not_a_tiger: This thing ought to work in eww
2015-05-02T21:48:41Z not_a_tiger: nope  :(
2015-05-02T21:48:46Z not_a_tiger: Firefox
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2015-05-02T21:51:33Z not_a_tiger: Why port 8116?
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2015-05-02T21:52:36Z cluck: Bike: don't fear the irs, like michael bolton says you can't live without an anus!
2015-05-02T21:53:09Z pjb: why not?
2015-05-02T21:53:45Z cluck: (that's was a reference to a "last week tonight" sketch.. lest someone take the joke badly)
2015-05-02T21:54:46Z cluck: pjb: because you can't poop (and then everything gets filled with it)
2015-05-02T21:55:05Z pjb: I was answering to not_a_tiger.
2015-05-02T21:55:38Z cluck: pjb: =)
2015-05-02T21:55:54Z not_a_tiger: Just curios if it had special meaning.
2015-05-02T21:56:00Z not_a_tiger: *curious
2015-05-02T21:59:34Z not_a_tiger: I broke it by using comments
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2015-05-02T22:00:09Z not_a_tiger: Oh
2015-05-02T22:00:20Z not_a_tiger: Looks like it only accepts one form per line?
2015-05-02T22:00:40Z pjb: How did you do it?
2015-05-02T22:01:10Z pjb: That's a limitation of ccl.
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2015-05-02T22:01:47Z not_a_tiger: Yeah, I guess that might be reasonable.
2015-05-02T22:01:49Z pjb: So you may type: (read) 3 RET
2015-05-02T22:02:06Z not_a_tiger: I just copy pasted my code from Emacs scratch buffer into the REPL.
2015-05-02T22:02:33Z not_a_tiger: The prompt disappeared and didn't return until I pressed Enter a few times.
2015-05-02T22:02:49Z not_a_tiger: Oh, and my defun didn't get evaled
2015-05-02T22:02:49Z pjb: seems to work for me.
2015-05-02T22:03:12Z not_a_tiger: Well, sorry I suck at explaining and rule at breaking stuff.
2015-05-02T22:03:21Z pjb: You used the paste from the popup menu in shellinabox?
2015-05-02T22:03:37Z not_a_tiger: Firefox Edit -> Paste
2015-05-02T22:03:53Z pjb: that won't work. Use right-button paste.
2015-05-02T22:04:29Z not_a_tiger: You intercepted my right mouse click with Javascript. That is so naughty  :P
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2015-05-02T22:04:42Z pjb: this is shellinabox.
2015-05-02T22:05:33Z not_a_tiger: I kind of like it. What else can it do?
2015-05-02T22:06:15Z pjb: everything that ccl can do.  It's in a chroot.  For now you can't use quicklisp, but it will be possible.
2015-05-02T22:06:46Z pjb: cl-charm (=ncurses) works.
2015-05-02T22:07:05Z not_a_tiger: sweet  :)
2015-05-02T22:07:27Z not_a_tiger: I wonder if SDF has Lisp
2015-05-02T22:07:36Z pjb: iirc, they have clisp
2015-05-02T22:09:26Z not_a_tiger: The FAQ mentions openlisp, whatever that is  :-/
2015-05-02T22:09:32Z not_a_tiger: Anyway, back to work
2015-05-02T22:11:54Z Petit_Dejeuner: open lisp (
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2015-05-02T22:22:16Z not_a_tiger: Looks like I'm done. Thanks for the help  :)
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2015-05-03T00:10:28Z dim: pjb: (fib 1000000) is displaying in my browser
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2015-05-03T00:10:48Z dim: took 32s to compute and I think more to display ;-)
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2015-05-03T00:44:59Z clop2: it seems that CCL/SBCL provide weak hash tables---do any Lisps provide weak arrays?
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2015-05-03T01:18:41Z p_l: clop2: if you have weak pointers, then you have them (so SBCL and CCL have them etc.)
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2015-05-03T03:45:02Z protist: Hello fellow lispers :)
2015-05-03T03:45:16Z Guest6796: hi
2015-05-03T03:46:40Z scoofy: hi.
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2015-05-03T03:55:38Z protist: Guest6796: scoofy: hello :)
2015-05-03T03:55:40Z protist is now known as protist_
2015-05-03T03:56:22Z Brozo: hi
2015-05-03T03:56:26Z protist_: where could I get a full list of quicklisp libraries?
2015-05-03T03:56:29Z protist_: Brozo: hello :)
2015-05-03T03:56:39Z protist_: I want to look at a full list, with descriptions
2015-05-03T03:56:43Z protist_: not just the top 100
2015-05-03T03:57:09Z protist_: I might start obsessively making Lisp libraries lol
2015-05-03T03:58:05Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-05-03T03:58:19Z protist_: beach: good morning! (afternoon here)
2015-05-03T03:58:23Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-05-03T03:58:32Z nyef: Almost morning here by my clock.
2015-05-03T03:58:54Z protist_: brb gotta tip the NSA
2015-05-03T04:00:47Z nyef: protist_: A full list of quicklisp libraries? Poke around inside your installed dist.
2015-05-03T04:01:51Z Bike: it's also on github as quicklisp-projects, though no descriptions right on the page
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2015-05-03T04:02:30Z protist_: I am in a machine learning course and thinking I might start making some machine learning libraries later :)
2015-05-03T04:03:13Z protist_: just transition class projects into systems
2015-05-03T04:03:29Z protist_: nyef: what command should I use to do that?
2015-05-03T04:03:45Z protist_: nyef: I guess I could look it up :p
2015-05-03T04:03:48Z nyef: I'd use ls and less.
2015-05-03T04:05:06Z protist_: nyef: (ql:system-list)
2015-05-03T04:05:17Z nyef: Or you could do that.
2015-05-03T04:05:51Z nyef: I happen to be extremely comfortable with looking at random files on my disk and trying to make sense of them.
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2015-05-03T04:07:39Z protist_: nyef: :)
2015-05-03T04:08:26Z nyef gets back to trying to make sense of the Linux ioc4 driver source.
2015-05-03T04:09:20Z protist_: nyef: I wanna get a description of each
2015-05-03T04:09:38Z protist_: nyef: can't find a good way to use ql:system-apropos
2015-05-03T04:09:47Z nyef: That I can't help you with... And Xach is probably asleep by now.
2015-05-03T04:10:01Z Bike: i don't think you can get a description without downloading the system, but there should be a machine-extractable one in the asd.
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2015-05-03T04:12:18Z protist_: Bike: how can I get a list of all slots of a class?
2015-05-03T04:12:38Z beach: mop class-slots
2015-05-03T04:12:39Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-slots.html
2015-05-03T04:12:53Z protist_: beach: thank you :)
2015-05-03T04:12:58Z Bike: asdf probably has an accessor
2015-05-03T04:13:01Z Bike: system-description or something
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2015-05-03T04:17:15Z protist_: Bike: "NO-APPLICABLE-METHOD"
2015-05-03T04:17:25Z Bike: that was just a guess
2015-05-03T04:17:33Z protist_: Bike: yeah...just thinking aloud
2015-05-03T04:17:36Z Bike: read docs or something to find the actual protocols
2015-05-03T04:18:09Z protist_: Bike: the system-list systems only have 6 slots
2015-05-03T04:18:16Z protist_: Bike: none seem to be useful
2015-05-03T04:19:11Z Bike: one, those aren't asdf systems. two, i did not mean to solve the problem for you, i was only trying to suggest a possible route for you to find a solution on your own.
2015-05-03T04:19:41Z protist_: gotcha...I'm just milking you for whatever I can get :P
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2015-05-03T04:43:41Z drmeister: Hi beach
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2015-05-03T04:45:58Z drmeister: I got my bootstrapping compiler running with tagged pointers.
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2015-05-03T05:04:42Z protist_: drmeister: CLASP?
2015-05-03T05:04:53Z drmeister: Yes
2015-05-03T05:04:57Z protist_: drmeister: nice :)
2015-05-03T05:05:07Z beach: drmeister: Congratulations!
2015-05-03T05:05:08Z protist_: drmeister: how does CLASP performance compare to SBCL?
2015-05-03T05:05:17Z drmeister: I'm switching to tagged pointers and immediate fixnums/characters/single-floats
2015-05-03T05:05:25Z protist_: drmeister: I know correctness comes before performance...just curious
2015-05-03T05:06:18Z drmeister: protist_: Not well - yet.
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2015-05-03T05:07:09Z protist_: drmeister: still awesome...how many people outside your research group have started using CLASP?
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2015-05-03T05:10:56Z drmeister: I don't know if anyone is using it.  There are several people helping me with it.   The current goal is to make it fast.
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2015-05-03T05:18:28Z protist_: drmeister: ah cool
2015-05-03T05:18:40Z protist_: drmeister: when it is faster I imagine a lot of people will be like "why not"
2015-05-03T05:19:20Z protist_: drmeister: but I guess anything CLASP does to leverage C++ libs will not be standards conforming...or idk
2015-05-03T05:20:07Z protist_: drmeister: I mean like if you are using CLASP to interact with big C++ things without using a compatible Common Lisp CFFI interface, then it will only be useful to CLASP
2015-05-03T05:20:34Z protist_: drmeister: or would it be easy for them to use regular CFFI to do the same things, just not as fast?
2015-05-03T05:20:50Z protist_: drmeister: or do you use the same code to interface, but just work faster?
2015-05-03T05:20:55Z protist_: drmeister: that would be ideal
2015-05-03T05:22:10Z protist_: sorry to wall-of-text...lol
2015-05-03T05:22:26Z protist_: I want lisp to take over the world
2015-05-03T05:24:47Z beach: I don't think that is going to happen.
2015-05-03T05:25:15Z protist_: beach: or at least become a rediculously profitable niche, moreso than now
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2015-05-03T07:57:57Z jackdaniel: good world-conquer plan isn't bad :p
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2015-05-03T08:00:18Z kami: Good morning.
2015-05-03T08:00:44Z jackdaniel: hello kami
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2015-05-03T10:36:53Z k-stz: In c++ we can refer to array index through enums, while still iterating through it with i=0, i++ arr[i]. In cl i'd use an a-list to get this (list :nice 'relation). But now I can't iterate through the a-list SETFably. Perhaps there is a more suitable datastructure?
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2015-05-03T10:39:38Z oleo: ?
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2015-05-03T10:49:16Z k-stz: c++: prog[WALK], prog[TALK] were WALK/TALK eval to numbers, so the index to the array is more meaningful. If I translate this to an a-list though, I can't iterate through it straight-forwardly  (defparameter *prog* (list :walk walk-prog :talk talk-prog))
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2015-05-03T10:49:51Z k-stz: I'd have to to do some (case (:walk 0) (:talk 1)) or whatnot, so I thought there might just be an easier way
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2015-05-03T10:53:39Z beach: k-stz: Why don't you just define WALK and TALK as constants?
2015-05-03T10:53:42Z SAL9000: k-stz: you want to make a setf-able alist? sounds like you need a hashtable.
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2015-05-03T10:55:13Z k-stz: beach: was thinking of that but then.. SAL9000 here got a very good idea
2015-05-03T10:55:18Z k-stz: :)
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2015-05-03T10:55:57Z beach: Sure, it depends on what it is that you want to do.
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2015-05-03T10:58:36Z k-stz: No, in fact the constant approach is better, this way I can directly translate the c++ code
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2015-05-03T10:59:28Z k-stz: I want to iterate over an array while reading from another with the same index PLUS eventually access the values of the array with a MEANING_FULL_ENUM
2015-05-03T11:00:01Z SAL9000: array = vector? list?
2015-05-03T11:00:44Z k-stz: so the array will be a vector in cl, so that (aref *vector* +walking-program+) will work
2015-05-03T11:01:11Z k-stz: and (loop for i below (length *vector) ..) too
2015-05-03T11:03:54Z k-stz: the c++ code intializes its enums like so: enums SomeEnums { WALK = 0, TALK, SLEEP} where TALK gets implicitly the value 1 and so on. So I'll just (defconstant +walk+ 0) ...
2015-05-03T11:06:21Z k-stz: hmm, I could write a enum->defconstants macro after the c++ syntax
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2015-05-03T11:12:07Z jackdaniel: if i only got paid for each line removed :_)
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2015-05-03T11:17:15Z ehu: jackdaniel: actually, that would be the best criterion for programmer bonusses.
2015-05-03T11:17:37Z jackdaniel: ehu: I agree, that's why I mentioned that
2015-05-03T11:17:55Z jackdaniel: yet, I'm making my own company, so nobody pays me unfortunately
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2015-05-03T11:18:02Z ehu: jackdaniel: :-)
2015-05-03T11:18:07Z ehu: maybe that will come.
2015-05-03T11:18:31Z jackdaniel: :)
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2015-05-03T11:23:40Z akersof: jackdaniel, using lisp in your compagny? like graham ? :)
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2015-05-03T11:30:20Z jackdaniel: yeah, that's the idea
2015-05-03T11:31:58Z dim: funnily enough I also run my own company and use lisp, but mostly my customers don't care at all what programming language I am using, I deliver working solutions that's it
2015-05-03T11:32:17Z dim: (fsvo working, fsvo solution, of course)
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2015-05-03T11:38:17Z ehu: jackdaniel: found yet another bug in the mirroring script. it should start working for real now.
2015-05-03T11:40:57Z jackdaniel: ehu: that's a good news, I was going to check tomorrow, if todays commits pass
2015-05-03T11:41:54Z ehu: ok. good. I checked and saw that your push from 6 days ago (with commits from 9 days ago) hadn't synced.
2015-05-03T11:42:02Z ehu: it's still worth a check tomorrow.
2015-05-03T11:42:28Z jackdaniel: hmm, does script cover situations, when history has changed?
2015-05-03T11:42:54Z ehu: it runs a full fetch. I think it does.
2015-05-03T11:43:01Z jackdaniel: ok
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2015-05-03T13:11:10Z ebrasca: eshell
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2015-05-03T13:25:16Z beach is finally making some progress on bootstrapping SICL.
2015-05-03T13:25:41Z nyef: Congratulations, beach.
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2015-05-03T13:25:50Z beach: Thanks.
2015-05-03T13:26:23Z beach: I spent so much time thinking about type inference that I forgot the status on bootstrapping.
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2015-05-03T13:37:18Z dim: damn, I'm still confused with macro arguments evaluation rules
2015-05-03T13:38:21Z dim: I've made a server-side include facility in a web based project, so I can have <lisp>(code here)</lisp> inside HTML files
2015-05-03T13:38:43Z dim: the code outputs forms suitable to with-html-output-to-string from cl-who
2015-05-03T13:38:50Z dim: and that one is a macro
2015-05-03T13:39:41Z dim: it seems then quite complex for my little mind to find the right way to reason about what should happen in what stage, as I read then eval code from string at runtime but still need to give the result to a macro that outputs html
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2015-05-03T13:47:19Z drmeister: Hello
2015-05-03T13:48:22Z theos: hey
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2015-05-03T13:48:53Z drmeister: beach: How is bootstrapping going?  I'm really curious about how you do that.
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2015-05-03T13:54:49Z beach: drmeister: It is hard to explain, actually.
2015-05-03T13:55:17Z beach: Hold on, I think I have a paper on it...
2015-05-03T13:55:22Z drmeister: That's perfectly consistent with my expectations.
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2015-05-03T13:57:54Z beach: There is a chapter in the SICL specification but it is a bit out of date.
2015-05-03T13:58:05Z beach: I start by bootstrapping CLOS.
2015-05-03T13:58:21Z beach: I create host classes for the MOP metaclasses.
2015-05-03T14:00:09Z drmeister: This is within a running Common Lisp environment and you bootstrap SICL CLOS?
2015-05-03T14:00:18Z beach: Right.
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2015-05-03T14:02:05Z testerbit: I'm trying to run this in clisp but get an error. Why? http://pastebin.com/n5xz8c2d
2015-05-03T14:02:07Z beach: Then I instantiate STANDARD-CLASS and some others in order to create a second MOP hierarchy consisting of what I call ersatz classes.  Those are not host classes, but just ordinary host instances.
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2015-05-03T14:02:45Z testerbit: I'm working off a text written in the 90's, so is it likely the syntax standard has changed?
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2015-05-03T14:03:17Z pjb: testerbit: try to use #\' instead of #\’
2015-05-03T14:03:37Z pjb: What's likely is that you're copypasting from a typographied document, instead of from source files.
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2015-05-03T14:04:20Z beach: drmeister: I give up trying to explain it here.  You need to read chapter 24 of the SICL specification.
2015-05-03T14:04:23Z pjb: testerbit: or better: use (quote dog) and Don't ue #' which is useless before (lambda.
2015-05-03T14:04:33Z drmeister: beach: No problem.
2015-05-03T14:04:50Z testerbit: pjb: thanks
2015-05-03T14:05:18Z drmeister: I'll check out the chapter.
2015-05-03T14:05:31Z beach: drmeister: The main idea is to create a host graph of objects that is isomorphic to the target graph.
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2015-05-03T14:05:53Z beach: drmeister: Then I traverse that host graph in order to generate the target graph as a memory image.
2015-05-03T14:06:59Z drmeister: That's interesting - I'll read up and ask better questions.
2015-05-03T14:09:15Z beach: The tricky part is to create that host graph.  I don't want to duplicate information, so I use the "normal" code, such as (defclass standard-class ...) and (defgeneric ensure-generic-function-using-class ...)
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2015-05-03T14:10:04Z beach: That "normal" code is a perfectly accurate description of the target graph.  Now I "just" have to make it work in a host system.
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2015-05-03T15:14:04Z therik: Hello
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2015-05-03T15:28:03Z JuanDaugherty: yello therik
2015-05-03T15:28:21Z therik: hey hey
2015-05-03T15:28:31Z therik: my M-. didn't work, but I figured out already
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2015-05-03T15:29:29Z therik: it worked for in-built functions but not my defined ones, at least it seemed like that
2015-05-03T15:29:51Z JuanDaugherty: heel goed
2015-05-03T15:29:52Z therik: at one point I noticed it took me to C sources of emacs, then I realised I've got emacs-lisp-mode
2015-05-03T15:30:00Z therik: instead of common lisp
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2015-05-03T15:32:46Z dim: when using hunchentoot, is there a way to avoid using (with-output-to-string (s) (render-rss-feed s)) in handlers?
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2015-05-03T16:00:24Z madnificent: minion: memo for Xach: Related to the docker story: I defined a docker instance for hosting common lisp webservices.  See https://registry.hub.docker.com/u/madnificent/lisp-webservice/
2015-05-03T16:00:25Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Xach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-05-03T16:14:45Z theos: why not use THEY instead of he/she/it?
2015-05-03T16:16:00Z madnificent: theos: he/she/it is slightly funny
2015-05-03T16:16:34Z theos: it is
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2015-05-03T16:47:52Z christoph_debian: hmm are the subversion repositories for common-lisp.net gone? the relevant links on cl-irc's website are all 404
2015-05-03T16:49:47Z LiamH: I think there's supposed to be some kind of redirect, ehu would know.
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2015-05-03T16:51:12Z ehu: christoph_debian: I'll check. hold on.
2015-05-03T16:51:17Z ehu: (no, they're not gone)
2015-05-03T16:52:06Z ehu: ok. I see the problem.
2015-05-03T16:52:17Z ehu: I'll address that later, for now the answer is this:
2015-05-03T16:52:47Z ehu: https://common-lisp.net/viewvc/cl-irc/
2015-05-03T16:53:25Z ehu: christoph_debian: ^^^
2015-05-03T16:53:41Z ehu: LiamH: thanks for putting my nick in it; was reading another window.
2015-05-03T16:54:06Z LiamH: ehu: I figured it might ring a chime for you.
2015-05-03T16:55:17Z christoph_debian: ehu: thanks!
2015-05-03T16:56:25Z ehu: christoph_debian: welcome!
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2015-05-03T17:10:20Z ehu: christoph_debian: redirect fixed.
2015-05-03T17:13:18Z christoph_debian: indeed now only http://common-lisp.net/faq.shtml#checkout is still 404
2015-05-03T17:15:53Z ehu: right. the faq hasn't been re-installed.
2015-05-03T17:16:11Z ehu: I have to work on that (though, if you want to help, that'd be great, of course!)
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2015-05-03T17:59:04Z not_a_tiger: Which Common Lisp is easiest to setup and get coding with on Ubuntu?
2015-05-03T17:59:16Z p_l: SBCL probably
2015-05-03T18:00:15Z not_a_tiger: I imagine `sudo apt-get install sbcl ; sbcl my-program.lisp`. Is it that easy?
2015-05-03T18:00:40Z beach: Not recommended.
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2015-05-03T18:01:06Z beach: not_a_tiger: Download a binary distribution of SBCL from sourceforge.
2015-05-03T18:01:18Z beach: Then install everything else using Quicklisp.
2015-05-03T18:01:22Z beach: ... including SLIME.
2015-05-03T18:01:37Z Bike: but yes, you could do sudo apt-get install sbcl && sbcl --load my-program.lisp
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2015-05-03T18:01:50Z Bike: not a good way to code, but you could do it.
2015-05-03T18:01:51Z p_l: distros (especially debian-related) tended to do some not necessarily helpful changes
2015-05-03T18:01:58Z not_a_tiger: Why make it so hard, beach?
2015-05-03T18:02:18Z beach: not_a_tiger: I didn't do it.
2015-05-03T18:02:22Z Bike: slime is way more pleasant than sbcl --load
2015-05-03T18:03:54Z beach: not_a_tiger: Which part do you consider hard?
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2015-05-03T18:06:17Z not_a_tiger: beach: Downloading binaries from outside the repos defeats the purpose of the package manager, and it not good practice. If everyone on the distro is using the same packages then bugs in the package can be fixed more efficiently.
2015-05-03T18:07:13Z Bike: debian's lisps are historically not good
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2015-05-03T18:07:32Z Bike: well, what i do is get the distro sbcl, then at some point use it to build an sbcl from source and put it in /usr/local
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2015-05-03T18:09:39Z not_a_tiger: Bike: That's an advanced usage pattern and requires you to take responsibility for managing your packages manually. Most Ubuntu users don't want this, else they'd be using Slack, or Arch, or LFS.
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2015-05-03T18:10:04Z beach: not_a_tiger: You can do what you want of course.  But what I told you is the method that is known to work.  Other methods might give you problems, and then you will be back here asking why things don't work.
2015-05-03T18:10:07Z Bike: i have faith that you can manage this advanced usage pattern, as a programmer, i guess?
2015-05-03T18:10:20Z Bike: i mean this isn't a chat client.
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2015-05-03T18:11:54Z p_l: not_a_tiger: to put it bluntly, many attempts in history of packaging CL turned sour, which is why you get this advice.
2015-05-03T18:12:03Z p_l: Best intentions leading on the road to hell, as it turned out
2015-05-03T18:12:03Z not_a_tiger: Bike: As a "programmer" I have faith in my ability to utterly break everything I touch. My tinkering tendencies have led me to the edge of disaster more often than not.
2015-05-03T18:12:30Z p_l: not_a_tiger: FWIW, I believe last time I tried SBCL from Ubuntu's repo it worked quite fine
2015-05-03T18:12:32Z not_a_tiger: Anyway, I'm grateful for the advice and information.
2015-05-03T18:12:34Z Bike: sbcl is reasonably self-contained, i've never needed to alter any ubuntu configuration files for it or nuthin'
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2015-05-03T18:13:40Z p_l: not_a_tiger: also, it's recommended to get acquaintained with https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ and use it to install slime (even if you're going to use Slimv or similar, as it will setup common files)
2015-05-03T18:15:02Z Petit_Dejeuner: Any reason why every language has its own package manager instead of just a different repo?
2015-05-03T18:15:57Z p_l: Petit_Dejeuner: Often because a) distro packaging wasn't a fit at all b) faster developement and sharing of code c) every distro had its own package manager that was incompatible with the rest
2015-05-03T18:17:35Z Petit_Dejeuner: How can 'a)'and 'c)' be a problem if so many things ARE on a package manager? Or am I overestimating how well they work?
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2015-05-03T18:19:58Z p_l: Petit_Dejeuner: overestimating, and also not accounting for c) being as much of a problem (especially debian, though RPMs were annoying as well), also for 'b)', many language-specific package managers also handle cross-platform sharing and developement work
2015-05-03T18:20:33Z p_l: I use so-called "deployment mode" in bundler, for example, to safely install libs locally for the app instead of systemwide
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2015-05-03T18:22:19Z Shinmera: If you have a package manager for your language, you only have to publish once. Otherwise you'd have to see about creating a package for every distro out there, which is close to impossible depending on packaging standards and submission restrictions.
2015-05-03T18:22:28Z shka: hello all
2015-05-03T18:22:51Z Shinmera: Having one for your language also enables you to easily reach outside of the linux environment. Otherwise you'd have to maintain special releases for those too.
2015-05-03T18:22:54Z p_l: Shinmera: and debian packages are awful in many areas to make
2015-05-03T18:23:16Z Shinmera: "those" being Os X and Windows, BSD, etc.
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2015-05-03T18:23:41Z p_l: some distros implement mechanism that allow you to quickly package from language-specific repo to distribution repository (gentoo)
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2015-05-03T18:23:58Z Shinmera: tl;dr: Package managers that aren't suited to the environment you're developing in (your language) are not feasible for distribution in the general case.
2015-05-03T18:24:14Z p_l: I actually used such things to make Gentoo packages out of Debian's :D
2015-05-03T18:24:27Z dim: p_l: have a look at ql-to-deb that mostly translates Quicklisp releases to debian packages
2015-05-03T18:24:28Z Shinmera: It works for C/++ projects because Linux et al are environments for that.
2015-05-03T18:24:56Z shka: anyway
2015-05-03T18:25:13Z p_l patiently waits for his automated debian install
2015-05-03T18:26:02Z shka: does anybody knows what kind of alghorithm is used to get simplest form of equation in maxima and other symbolic math software?
2015-05-03T18:26:11Z shka: i'm struggling to figure this out
2015-05-03T18:26:24Z shka: this seems to be nontrivial issue
2015-05-03T18:26:35Z shka: (but it is fun)
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2015-05-03T18:31:08Z christoph_debian: p_l: I'd be happy to hear about not helpfull changes in debian's sbcl
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2015-05-03T18:34:15Z p_l: christoph_debian: outdated, and mostly not-updated code to implement loading of ASDF systems from deb packages, which sometimes leads to problems during developement
2015-05-03T18:37:01Z christoph_debian: dunno, sbcl has hardly been one release behind ever
2015-05-03T18:37:32Z christoph_debian: there's no custom code baked into lisp binarys for almost 5 jears now
2015-05-03T18:38:11Z christoph_debian: given the ~2 months between sbcl releases I'd say that's fair
2015-05-03T18:39:16Z nyef: SBCL is "normally" released on a monthly basis.
2015-05-03T18:40:05Z christoph_debian: maybe even that
2015-05-03T18:41:01Z christoph_debian: http://snapshot.debian.org/package/sbcl/ seems to indicate no 3+ months hole since pre-1.0 days
2015-05-03T18:41:04Z H4ns: since when can the topic only be set by channel ops?
2015-05-03T18:41:13Z christoph_debian: anyway if there's anything concrete I'd love to hear
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2015-05-03T18:41:27Z christoph_debian: more than willing to improve things
2015-05-03T18:41:43Z nyef: H4ns: Since the mode was set +t, whenever that was.
2015-05-03T18:41:57Z H4ns: nyef: do you have the powers to remove that again?
2015-05-03T18:42:11Z nyef: No, I've never been an op here.
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2015-05-03T18:43:29Z christoph_debian: the whole quicklisp is probably the usual "My language is special, the package manager there should be the same everywhere" vs. "My distro is special my package manager there should be the same for whatever I do"
2015-05-03T18:43:34Z pjb: shka: usually, it's rule based, with a set of simple simplification rules, that is applied iteratively until no simplification can be performed.
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2015-05-03T18:44:13Z dim:    7: SB-IMPL::ERROR-ERROR
2015-05-03T18:44:13Z dim:    8: SB-IMPL::INFINITE-ERROR-PROTECTOR
2015-05-03T18:44:13Z dim:    9: SB-KERNEL::INTERNAL-ERROR
2015-05-03T18:44:17Z pjb: shka:  like: x+0 --> x,   x*1 --> x,   (x-x) --> 0, etc.
2015-05-03T18:44:41Z dim: should I have some hope? seems like sbcl broke the daemon lib in 1.2.10, or the other way round, dunno
2015-05-03T18:44:41Z nyef: christoph_debian: Except that the amount of trouble people had when debian was doing "special" things with Lisp packages was impressive.
2015-05-03T18:45:02Z dim: maybe now is the time to learn how to use ldb?
2015-05-03T18:45:38Z nyef: dim: Almost the only uses for ldb are getting a backtrace, and looking at interrupt contexts.
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2015-05-03T18:45:59Z dim: ok I have an all SB internals backtrace
2015-05-03T18:46:03Z dim:   99: SB-IMPL::CALL-WITH-SANE-IO-SYNTAX
2015-05-03T18:46:23Z dim: that's the outermost call, IIUC
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2015-05-03T18:46:56Z dim: so basically (given   96: COMMON-LISP::FORMAT) ldb is telling me that I have a format bug?
2015-05-03T18:47:49Z nyef: Not necessarily.
2015-05-03T18:48:03Z christoph_debian: nyef: might be. would be definitely interested in sbcl-package-related things
2015-05-03T18:48:24Z christoph_debian: for libraries the situation is meh I know
2015-05-03T18:48:31Z nyef: dim: lisppaste the lossage message, the backtrace, and any interrupt contexts, please?
2015-05-03T18:49:19Z ChanServ has set mode +o p_l
2015-05-03T18:49:22Z p_l has set mode -t
2015-05-03T18:49:23Z dim: apparently I'm finding some fixes
2015-05-03T18:49:26Z ChanServ has set mode -o p_l
2015-05-03T18:49:29Z p_l: H4ns: done
2015-05-03T18:49:32Z dim: will post you the commitdiff in soem
2015-05-03T18:49:37Z H4ns: p_l: thanks!
2015-05-03T18:49:39Z nyef: christoph_debian: The thing is, Debian used to use something called "common-lisp-controller", in order to rebuild library fasls whenever the base implementation package was updated... Thus, affected the implementation packages as well.
2015-05-03T18:49:40Z H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>|contact op if muted| Hunchentoot 1.2.32, cl-launch 4.1.3, Drakma 1.3.14, SBCL 1.2.10
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2015-05-03T18:53:34Z dim: mmm, it's very unstable ;(
2015-05-03T18:53:43Z dim: nyef: how do I get to interrupt contexts?
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2015-05-03T18:55:13Z dim: nyef: http://paste.lisp.org/display/147776
2015-05-03T18:55:17Z nyef: The "context" command.
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2015-05-03T18:56:12Z dim: annotated with its output
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2015-05-03T18:56:57Z nyef: Oh, wow.
2015-05-03T18:57:01Z nyef: Yeah, that's not good.
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2015-05-03T18:57:51Z nyef: I think that dougk_ was doing something with the infinite error protector recently.
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2015-05-03T18:58:22Z dim: should I try with an older version of sbcl?
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2015-05-03T18:58:40Z nyef: Maybe. Or with *break-on-signals* t.
2015-05-03T18:59:07Z hefner: hmm. I want to define a macro that does the equivalent of defpackage, in package, and some boilerplate definitions within that package
2015-05-03T18:59:21Z nyef: Although it looks like there might be something poisoning your system... One of the errors comes in during backtrace.
2015-05-03T18:59:29Z dim: on the server I have 1.2.4.debian and I believe it errors out in similar ways, I didn't try running it with :exit-parent nil yet
2015-05-03T18:59:41Z nyef: Actually, many of them come in during backtrace. This is weird.
2015-05-03T18:59:58Z dim: is there another lib similar in purpose to daemon that I could try using?
2015-05-03T19:00:58Z dim: maybe https://github.com/mishoo/cl-daemonize ?
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2015-05-03T19:04:40Z nyef: I have no idea what daemon or cl-daemonize end up doing... But I'm suddenly wondering if part of your problem has to do with I/O streams, particularly stderr.
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2015-05-03T19:06:54Z dim:       (setf sb-sys:*stderr* (make-broadcast-stream))
2015-05-03T19:06:56Z dim: the lib does that
2015-05-03T19:07:36Z dim: mmm, could be that I'm passing a filename (string) instead of an opened stream
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2015-05-03T19:12:38Z nyef: Yeah, having stderr closed might explain a good chunk of that ldb experience.
2015-05-03T19:13:28Z dim: oh would just mean that ldb output is gibberish, wouldn't help understanding what's happening, right?
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2015-05-03T19:18:46Z ejbs: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp just hit 10k subscribers!
2015-05-03T19:18:52Z remi`bd: :D
2015-05-03T19:20:27Z christoph_debian: nyef: I remember. that's the thing which stopped to exist basically 5 years ago
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2015-05-03T19:36:07Z nyef: dim: What I'm expecting is that the ldb itself is using a freshly open()ed /dev/tty or similar, while the print logic is occasionally using stdout or stderr, and most of the time it works, but in your case it blows up somehow. Or something else could be going on like a completely crazy pointer that looks valid but isn't.
2015-05-03T19:36:45Z dim: well I'd like to just be able to run my code as a daemon obviously, but yeah
2015-05-03T19:37:26Z dim: for now the code runs fine in Emacs in a tmux on the server, that said
2015-05-03T19:37:28Z nyef: Your own use, or for distribution?
2015-05-03T19:37:40Z dim: my own use, http://cl.tapoueh.org/
2015-05-03T19:37:56Z nyef: I usually just run in screen. Same sort of setup.
2015-05-03T19:37:59Z dim: it allows me to double check my git push before I recompile into a static website
2015-05-03T19:38:35Z dim: the production website is http://tapoueh.org, cl.* is an all dynamic no cache version of it
2015-05-03T19:39:01Z dim: it's fast enough that it could be the production service I guess, but I don't like running code to display static resources
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2015-05-03T20:05:51Z Petit_Dejeuner: Been reading about the Symbolics 3600. Do Common Lisp implementations use LOCATIVE pointers to definitions of functions? Do *special* vars work the sameway?
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2015-05-03T20:07:00Z Quadrescence: Petit_Dejeuner, locatives aren't really a thing in modern Common Lisp
2015-05-03T20:07:23Z Quadrescence: It's all sort of muddled away in SETF expansions and the notion of an object
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2015-05-03T20:08:19Z Shinmera: H4ns: I think it was set +t in response to some joker realising that they could set the topic to oh so funny things.
2015-05-03T20:09:42Z therik: emacs' shell isn't powerful enough
2015-05-03T20:09:48Z therik: it can't run emacs in it
2015-05-03T20:10:06Z Shinmera: ansi-term sure can.
2015-05-03T20:10:37Z therik: jeez you're right
2015-05-03T20:11:41Z Petit_Dejeuner: Quadrescence, What do you mean by notion of an object?
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2015-05-03T20:12:28Z therik: 6 levels deep and it's starting to get slow
2015-05-03T20:13:46Z Petit_Dejeuner: Ha, now try opening two terms each level down.
2015-05-03T20:14:52Z Quadrescence: Petit_Dejeuner, I mean objects are usually internally pointers to some record-like structure in memory. But that is almost completely transparent to the programmer.
2015-05-03T20:15:31Z therik: Petit_Dejeuner, I can't close it, C-x C-c doesn't work
2015-05-03T20:16:00Z therik: I'm outa there or I get stucked in recursion
2015-05-03T20:16:07Z Shinmera: therik: For a single level, using C-x C-x C-c C-c will close the inner. You figure out the rest.
2015-05-03T20:16:07Z Petit_Dejeuner: therik, I've never had much luck with emacs terminals.
2015-05-03T20:16:28Z therik: Shinmera, ah, didn't know, thanks
2015-05-03T20:20:07Z Petit_Dejeuner: Quadrescence, If the notion of an object muddles away concepts like locatives, wouldn't the notion of an object be opaque?
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2015-05-03T20:20:57Z Quadrescence: Petit_Dejeuner, Lisp still allows you to observe things like object identity that is completely disjoint from the object's notional value
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2015-05-03T20:21:38Z Petit_Dejeuner: By identity you mean #'eq and notional #'equal?
2015-05-03T20:21:52Z Quadrescence: yes, well EQUAL isn't quite general enough, but yes
2015-05-03T20:21:59Z kami: Xach: is there a way of uninstalling a system which was quickloaded?
2015-05-03T20:22:02Z therik: Petit_Dejeuner, it's hard to keep track of which level am I in
2015-05-03T20:22:19Z nyef: kami: Short on disk space or something?
2015-05-03T20:22:33Z therik: Petit_Dejeuner, it was easy with straight chain, but if it forks to two on each level, I can't keep track of which emacs I'm splitting window in
2015-05-03T20:22:41Z kami: nyef: no, have a patched version which I would like to put in an own dist with quickdist
2015-05-03T20:22:41Z Shinmera: kami: ql:uninstall ?
2015-05-03T20:22:41Z Quadrescence: Petit_Dejeuner, you might like to play with https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/cl-locatives
2015-05-03T20:23:04Z Petit_Dejeuner: therik, I think you've had one too many pushing potions.
2015-05-03T20:23:04Z Quadrescence: it is not the same as lisp machine locatives, and they're not super general or efficient, but they give you the idea of what one can do with a locative
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2015-05-03T20:23:53Z dim: nyef: I got passed this bug by doing it all myself (not using daemon anymore, sb-posix calls directly), but the behavior still is strange (to me) in the child after the fork, as in the process is listening on the port, but it's like the code isn't running then (telnet ok, curl ko)
2015-05-03T20:23:53Z kami: Shinmera: I swear it wasn't there when I tab-completed on ql:uninst<TAB>
2015-05-03T20:23:58Z dim: will see another day now
2015-05-03T20:24:13Z kami thanks Shinmera and is ashamed
2015-05-03T20:24:17Z Shinmera: :)
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2015-05-03T20:26:06Z kami: Shinmera: BTW did I thank you multiple times for dist?
2015-05-03T20:26:16Z kami: shirakumo-dist, that is
2015-05-03T20:26:27Z Shinmera: kami: I don't think so. Was it useful to you?
2015-05-03T20:26:38Z kami is even more ashamed
2015-05-03T20:26:50Z kami: Yes, works likes a charm.
2015-05-03T20:26:56Z Shinmera: Cool, I'm glad to hear!
2015-05-03T20:27:10Z therik: Petit_Dejeuner, what's a pushing potion?
2015-05-03T20:27:29Z kami: Will be the way to distribute a working set of libs to colleagues.
2015-05-03T20:28:18Z Petit_Dejeuner: therik, The Tortise and Achilles use them in the book Godel Escher Bach.
2015-05-03T20:28:41Z Petit_Dejeuner: Pushing potions push you into a painting. One level deeper.
2015-05-03T20:28:47Z kami: Shinmera: Later, I would like to combine that dist with QL's bundle export mechanism with the hu.dwim.build scripts to dump an executable image from the latest dist.
2015-05-03T20:30:04Z therik: Petit_Dejeuner, ah you just reminded me of a fairytale movie I watched as a kid
2015-05-03T20:30:39Z Petit_Dejeuner: Stacktraces just got more interesting.
2015-05-03T20:31:08Z therik: function is a pushing potion then
2015-05-03T20:31:13Z therik: and stack trace is a map
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2015-05-03T20:32:00Z Shinmera: kami: As a future project I'm thinking of dropping quickdist in favour of my own system that would include a web frontend in addition to the quicklisp necessary servings.
2015-05-03T20:32:37Z Petit_Dejeuner: therik, And a return is popping tonic.
2015-05-03T20:32:40Z Shinmera: But that'll be a while.
2015-05-03T20:32:48Z therik: Petit_Dejeuner, :))
2015-05-03T20:32:53Z Petit_Dejeuner: But you have to be careful not to take any before you've pushed.
2015-05-03T20:33:10Z therik: sure, or you end up in terminal
2015-05-03T20:33:42Z therik: what if you're already in reality and drink popping tonic?
2015-05-03T20:33:55Z therik: do you start tripping or what?
2015-05-03T20:34:12Z kami: Shinmera: to be honest, I don't fully understand that part. Isn't it sufficient to push the content of the release/ subdir to a simple web server for static serving?
2015-05-03T20:34:42Z Shinmera: kami: It is, yes.
2015-05-03T20:34:50Z kami: Shinmera: wait. A web 'frontend'. I didn't read carefully.
2015-05-03T20:35:19Z kami: You want to build a quicklisp reverse proxy?
2015-05-03T20:35:25Z Shinmera: Uh, no
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2015-05-03T20:35:39Z Shinmera: I want to make what the dist provides browseable.
2015-05-03T20:36:00Z Shinmera: In similar vein to quickdocs, I suppose.
2015-05-03T20:36:07Z kami: I see.
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2015-05-03T20:36:43Z Petit_Dejeuner: therik, Achilles had already asked the question. https://www.refheap.com/872d735ca0b8cf75e6d47c554
2015-05-03T20:36:51Z Petit_Dejeuner: I think you'd like the book.
2015-05-03T20:38:04Z kami: Shinmera: good idea. People would be able to see what they get before they install the dist.
2015-05-03T20:39:06Z kami: Shinmera: would you make use of quickdocs (don't know whether that's possible)?
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2015-05-03T20:48:22Z therik: Petit_Dejeuner, thanks
2015-05-03T20:48:32Z Shinmera: kami: Probably not.
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2015-05-03T20:59:07Z oleo_: how do you make plotted points of a graph which is dense on some range and not-so dense on other regions get equilibrated ?
2015-05-03T20:59:32Z oleo_: fooo
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2015-05-03T21:02:13Z therik: Achilles: And what is that? | Genie: This is my Meta-Lamp ... | Meta-Genie: I am the Meta-Genie. You summoned me, 0 Genie? What is your wish?
2015-05-03T21:02:17Z therik: Petit_Dejeuner, Man, that's brilliant :D
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2015-05-03T21:03:16Z Petit_Dejeuner: G.O.D. Over Djinn
2015-05-03T21:05:16Z therik: Genie: I am pleased to report, Ach
2015-05-03T21:05:16Z therik: illes, that you r have exactly one (1)
2015-05-03T21:05:16Z therik: Typeless Wish-that is to sa wish, or
2015-05-03T21:05:16Z therik: a meta-wish, or a meta-meta-wish,
2015-05-03T21:05:16Z therik: as many "meta"'s as you wish-even infinitely many (if wish).
2015-05-03T21:05:30Z therik: I have to read this!
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2015-05-03T21:09:42Z nyef: Wow, GEB:EGB. I haven't seen a reference to that in ages. (-:
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2015-05-03T21:14:18Z mood: Does somebody perhaps have a websocket client library somewhere?
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2015-05-03T21:17:55Z Shinmera: mood: there's hunchensocket
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2015-05-03T21:19:23Z mood: Shinmera: I didn't know Hunchensocket can also act as a client. Can it?
2015-05-03T21:19:47Z Shinmera: Oh, no, it can't.
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2015-05-03T21:19:53Z Shinmera: I didn't read "client". My mistake.
2015-05-03T21:20:26Z mood: I guess I can figure something out, perhaps turn it into a library
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2015-05-03T21:30:55Z therik: What's is this book!!!   " Pushcorn and popcorn are extraordinarily difficult to tell apart. "
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2015-05-03T22:57:56Z wobh: Anyone here know of an article describing best practices for using `quote' in Common Lisp?
2015-05-03T22:59:36Z Denommus: wobh: what do you mean?
2015-05-03T23:00:00Z Denommus: In a macro or something?
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2015-05-03T23:02:37Z wobh: Basically, I've heard of some gotcha's about it. The code being discussed was case a list of cons literals.
2015-05-03T23:04:27Z wobh: I've never thought about it much before, and I'm generally pretty casual about quoting lists of symbols, for example.
2015-05-03T23:04:32Z Denommus: wobh: I guess On Lisp covers the gotchas
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2015-05-03T23:06:55Z wobh: Thanks! I don't remember that from the book, but it's been awhile.
2015-05-03T23:07:27Z Denommus: If On Lisp doesn't, PCL probably does
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2015-05-03T23:11:55Z wobh: The only really problematic thing I can think of is when a destructive function gets called on one.
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2015-05-03T23:13:16Z k-stz: wobh: perhaps you mean http://random-state.net/files/nikodemus-cl-faq.html see the section "SET, SETQ and SETF..."
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2015-05-03T23:16:34Z k-stz: ah sorry meant "'(1 2 3) or (list 1 2 3)?"
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2015-05-04T00:22:12Z pjb: wobh: the best practice in programming is using your brains!
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2015-05-04T00:43:17Z p_l: nyef: btw, you mentioned having a X11 reference book...
2015-05-04T00:43:47Z nyef: p_l: I used to have some, yes.
2015-05-04T00:44:05Z p_l: ah, "used"
2015-05-04T00:44:19Z p_l was hoping to gain them for a cost of shipping :D
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2015-05-04T00:46:06Z nyef: Too late, I'm afraid.
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2015-05-04T01:18:18Z vrrm: p_l: I'm assuming you have reason for wanting the old "X Window System" reference manuals.  But in case you weren't aware, virtually all that material can be found on the xorg site: http://www.x.org/wiki/ProgrammingDocumentation/
2015-05-04T01:19:11Z vrrm: p_l: http://www.x.org/releases/X11R7.7/doc/index.html
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2015-05-04T01:21:32Z p_l: I had them once in my hands, and I think I'd prefer to go through them :)
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2015-05-04T01:23:15Z vrrm: p_l: I figured that was the case, the above was just in case you weren't aware.
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2015-05-04T02:41:33Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-05-04T02:42:12Z theos: hey
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2015-05-04T02:55:43Z pillton: G'day beach.
2015-05-04T02:59:55Z pillton: Well, over the weekend I learned that I was wrong. You can write your own array like type which is not derived from ARRAY.
2015-05-04T03:01:09Z beach: Where do you store the elements?
2015-05-04T03:02:00Z p_l recalls a certain talk that involved a lot of sys:memref ;)
2015-05-04T03:02:47Z pillton: They are stored in an lisp array, but that object isn't used by TYPEP.
2015-05-04T03:03:50Z pillton: I needed an structure which had the concept of a leading dimension.
2015-05-04T03:03:59Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-05-04T03:04:01Z pillton: array structure sorry.
2015-05-04T03:04:50Z nyef: pillton: Do you still provide an AREF operation, or is it named something else?
2015-05-04T03:05:14Z pillton: Something else, but if enough type information is provided it gets expanded in to AREF.
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2015-05-04T03:06:57Z pillton: It supports both row major and column major arrangements too.
2015-05-04T03:08:50Z drmeister: Hi beach
2015-05-04T03:10:46Z beach: drmeister: How are Clasp improvements going?
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2015-05-04T03:11:37Z drmeister: Clasp with tagged pointers compiles its compiler, but I'm still tracking down bugs.
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2015-05-04T03:12:23Z drmeister: I've expanded FIXNUMs to 63 bits at the same time and I'm tracking down problems that this has caused.  It's in preparation for switching from boxed FIXNUMs to immediate FIXNUMs
2015-05-04T03:12:44Z drmeister: For example:   most-positive-fixnum --> -1
2015-05-04T03:12:48Z drmeister: Ooops
2015-05-04T03:13:01Z beach: Ooops indeed.
2015-05-04T03:13:32Z pillton: p_l: That wasn't me who talked about sys:memref.
2015-05-04T03:13:48Z nyef: Heh. Reminds me of expanding FIXNUMs to 63 bits in SBCL. (-:
2015-05-04T03:15:11Z nyef: (In theory, on 64-bit SBCL, it should be possible to build with 61-63 bit FIXNUMs, based on a quick tweak the the definition of n-fixnum-tag-bits, but it doesn't really get tested all that often.
2015-05-04T03:15:14Z nyef: )
2015-05-04T03:16:21Z drmeister: Does SBCL use the GNU multiple precision library?
2015-05-04T03:16:59Z nyef: contrib/sb-gmp ?
2015-05-04T03:17:21Z nyef: I suppose that that might be some OTHER "gmp".
2015-05-04T03:17:23Z drmeister: No - internally.
2015-05-04T03:17:40Z nyef: I wouldn't imagine so. What does it do?
2015-05-04T03:17:41Z drmeister: I guess SBCL implements its own bignum library
2015-05-04T03:17:50Z drmeister: Bignums
2015-05-04T03:17:51Z nyef: Yes, SB!BIGNUM.
2015-05-04T03:18:01Z drmeister: I'm using GMP
2015-05-04T03:18:17Z nyef: Often a hilarious source of bugs on new (or newly-maintained) ports.
2015-05-04T03:19:00Z p_l: pillton: if you weren't at ELS, it might be a bit too much of an in-joke :)
2015-05-04T03:19:04Z drmeister: What is?  GMP?
2015-05-04T03:19:15Z nyef: No, SBCL's bignum support.
2015-05-04T03:19:19Z drmeister: Ah
2015-05-04T03:19:44Z nyef: Xof commented on his blog about it a couple of times.
2015-05-04T03:20:15Z pillton: p_l: Ok. Well, it went straight over my head. No noise either. :)
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2015-05-04T03:23:38Z nyef: From one year, eight days ago (has it really been that long?): http://www.advogato.org/person/crhodes/diary/189.html
2015-05-04T03:26:06Z beach: pillton: I think p_l is trying to make you come to ELS next year.
2015-05-04T03:26:27Z p_l: :)
2015-05-04T03:26:35Z p_l: I might even be in the hosting crew
2015-05-04T03:26:46Z beach: Oh, right!  Nice!
2015-05-04T03:26:47Z nyef: Fun achievement today: working D64 DMA on my Origin 350, meaning that the tg3 card can send and receive packets without the kernel panicking after 750 of them.
2015-05-04T03:27:18Z nyef: I still have no idea what's going on with the SCSI controller, though.
2015-05-04T03:27:22Z beach: nyef: Congratulations!
2015-05-04T03:28:15Z nyef: It's at the point where I'm starting to look into netboot options (as I have another machine which has no drive rails for some reason, and I've been unable to source replacements).
2015-05-04T03:28:53Z nyef: So, getting closer to a usable system for me to run SBCL on.
2015-05-04T03:30:24Z beach: I admire your patience.  It must take a lot of it for that kind of debugging.
2015-05-04T03:31:28Z nyef: It's not so much patience as... repeated attempts with exponential backoff.
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2015-05-04T03:31:47Z beach: Human Ethernet.
2015-05-04T03:31:50Z nyef: Heh.
2015-05-04T03:32:01Z nyef: IP over Bicycle Courier?
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2015-05-04T03:32:21Z beach: :)
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2015-05-04T03:33:03Z beach: There was a spec for IP over carrier pigeon, wasn't there?
2015-05-04T03:33:15Z nyef: Yes, there was. Also over commercial air carrier.
2015-05-04T03:33:42Z nyef: Sometimes I'll be working on a project and run into a total brick wall. And I'll leave it alone for MONTHS at a time, coming back to it periodically. It's been known to take YEARS to figure out where the mistake was.
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2015-05-04T03:34:44Z nyef: One of these was writing a bare-metal boot loader for NetBSD/macppc (to replace the MacOS Application). Another was SBCL/Win32. Another was SBCL/ARM.
2015-05-04T03:34:52Z beach: Yes, I see your strategy now.  I think it actually helps to leave it for some time.
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2015-05-04T03:38:34Z nyef: It can. At the very least, you can work on something else, rather than staying stuck and frustrated with a project that just isn't going anywhere.
2015-05-04T03:38:52Z beach: Good point, yes.
2015-05-04T03:39:28Z p_l: it's a good idea if you can leave the project to stew :/
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2015-05-04T03:45:22Z p_l hopes that this time the machine will boot after reboot
2015-05-04T03:45:27Z beach: drmeister: As a result of your question about bootstrapping SICL, I came up with the one-line explanation that I gave you, i.e. "Create a graph of host objects isomorphic to the desired graph of target objects.  Use normal-looking definitions of classes, generic-functions, methods, etc. to describe this graph.  Traverse the graph of host objects to create the memory image of the target."
2015-05-04T03:47:28Z beach: drmeister: I shall use this explanation in the chapter on bootstrapping in the SICL specification.
2015-05-04T03:48:05Z nyef: beach: 42 words long? I thought the limit was 25? d-:
2015-05-04T03:48:19Z beach: Damn!
2015-05-04T03:48:33Z beach: Still good progress, though.
2015-05-04T03:48:53Z nyef: For extra credit, iambic pentameter!
2015-05-04T03:49:20Z beach: That shall have to be a contribution.
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2015-05-04T03:58:39Z drmeister: beach: With a little more work you can turn that into a tweet!
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2015-05-04T04:06:04Z pillton: p_l beach: I'd love to go to ELS.
2015-05-04T04:06:25Z aap_ is now known as aap
2015-05-04T04:09:22Z drmeister: Since I'm messing with C++ int and FIXNUMs... did anyone see this story?    http://www.i-programmer.info/news/149-security/8548-reboot-your-dreamliner-every-248-days-to-avoid-integer-overflow.html
2015-05-04T04:10:26Z nyef: ... Yes. Yes, we did.
2015-05-04T04:14:29Z p_l has kinda closer relationship to that kind of reports, so yes, indeed
2015-05-04T04:14:54Z drmeister is starting to hate "int"
2015-05-04T04:15:25Z drmeister: Yayyy!
2015-05-04T04:15:28Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/D46CNALg
2015-05-04T04:15:29Z nyef: "unsigned int eger, erior, errupt;"
2015-05-04T04:16:01Z nyef: Well, that looks reasonable. Congratulations, drmeister!
2015-05-04T04:16:18Z drmeister: If they'd used those puppies they would be able to fly until the sun went nova.
2015-05-04T04:16:35Z p_l suspects he had blown fuses in the office, again
2015-05-04T04:17:02Z drmeister: It's funny how interlocking failures work sometimes.
2015-05-04T04:17:05Z p_l: aaaand the whole night lost on tinkering with the bloody netinstall
2015-05-04T04:17:23Z drmeister: I found that fixnums weren't working properly because DELETE wouldn't work properly.
2015-05-04T04:18:01Z drmeister: And  I found DELETE didn't work properly because when I compile CLOS the compiler goes into a damn infinite loop.
2015-05-04T04:18:20Z drmeister: Apparently - you can go pretty far with a broken FIXNUM implementation.
2015-05-04T04:18:32Z nyef: Yes. Yes, you can.
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2015-05-04T04:19:12Z pillton: Isn't it Zhivago who says that software works by accident?
2015-05-04T04:19:23Z nyef: Not just Zhivago.
2015-05-04T04:19:32Z nyef: Also, some software works by fiat.
2015-05-04T04:19:45Z drmeister: Here's a real funny one.  In implementing tagged pointers I broke /= and it returned (/= 1 2) --> nil  and (/= 1 1) --> T.   It was opposite day.
2015-05-04T04:19:51Z nyef: (That is, it works by being declared to work.)
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2015-05-04T04:20:46Z pillton: nyef: Ah, a reality gap. I like it!
2015-05-04T04:21:51Z drmeister must get the ANSI Common Lisp tests to run as soon as he brings his system back up.
2015-05-04T04:22:07Z nyef: I'm looking at some PCI host controller code which is an odd mix of improvement over some other code for the same controller in a slightly different architecture, completely stupid at some things, doing an end-run around others, and a few points of WTF.
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2015-05-04T04:23:00Z drmeister: WTF == domain specific knowledge?
2015-05-04T04:23:47Z nyef: No, just... WTF.
2015-05-04T04:24:24Z drmeister: I'm never sure when I first encounter something I don't understand.  It's only in hindsight that WTF becomes apparent.
2015-05-04T04:24:40Z drmeister: Ah
2015-05-04T04:25:16Z drmeister: Cmon CLOS! Compile damnit.
2015-05-04T04:26:44Z nyef: So, the system has 64 IRQs. Eight have fixed assignments. Each PCI host controller chews through 8 of them, even if it only has one card installed. And then it turns out that there are expansion slots that accept boards that are a single PCI card with a dedicated host controller.
2015-05-04T04:27:51Z nyef: Seven such boards, and you are out of IRQs.
2015-05-04T04:28:06Z nyef: ... Or was it only 32 IRQs in the system? I might have to check on that...
2015-05-04T04:30:08Z nyef: Looks like 64, but a bunch of them are assigned.
2015-05-04T04:30:52Z nyef: And I'm thinking "WTF? There's not only a better way to do this, but there's PRECEDENT for it".
2015-05-04T04:34:38Z drmeister: beach: How is type inference going? Can it infer anything yet?
2015-05-04T04:35:09Z beach: Not yet.
2015-05-04T04:35:11Z drmeister: 'fer eliminating runtime type checks?
2015-05-04T04:36:23Z drmeister: No problem.
2015-05-04T04:36:25Z beach: Having to make it implementation independent is a bit messy.
2015-05-04T04:37:36Z beach: For example, it is important that it can determine when an object is a fixnum, so that it can use fast fixnum arithmetic.
2015-05-04T04:37:53Z beach: But I need to know what the implementation defines to be a fixnum.
2015-05-04T04:37:58Z drmeister: So I guess the implementation dependencies express themselves in more places than the compiler macros.
2015-05-04T04:38:51Z beach: Compiler macros are just to convert calls to n-ary functions into calls to binary functions.
2015-05-04T04:39:44Z drmeister: They don't expand to lots of runtime checks?
2015-05-04T04:39:44Z beach: For example, there might be a call to CHECK-TYPE with a type such as (INTEGER <a> <b>).
2015-05-04T04:40:04Z beach: drmeister: No, inlining the binary functions will do that.
2015-05-04T04:40:36Z beach: So the type inferencer gets this type (INTEGER <a> <b>) but must know whether it is a fixnum in the implementation.
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2015-05-04T04:41:33Z beach: Therefore, I need to figure out a protocol so that the implementation can customize the type inferencer.
2015-05-04T04:41:49Z Quadrescence: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
2015-05-04T04:42:14Z drmeister: I see
2015-05-04T04:42:28Z beach: drmeister: The compiler macro turns (+ e1 e2 ... en) into (b-+ e1 (b-+ e2 ... (b+ en-1 en) ...))
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2015-05-04T04:42:49Z drmeister: Yes, that part I recall
2015-05-04T04:42:55Z beach: That's all.
2015-05-04T04:43:08Z beach: Then b-+ is a function that tests the type of its arguments.
2015-05-04T04:43:24Z drmeister: Once I implement it I'll develop a real firm grasp of the division of labor.
2015-05-04T04:43:52Z beach: Those tests are used by the type inferencer to eliminate tests where the result is known at compile time.
2015-05-04T04:44:33Z beach: We discussed whether B-+ could be implementation independent, and I don't think so at this point.
2015-05-04T04:45:19Z beach: For example, an implementation such as CLISP that uses arbitrary-precision floats for LONG-FLOAT should now use the UNBOX-LONG-FLOAT instruction.
2015-05-04T04:45:25Z drmeister: So B-+ is the COND with every possible combination of types and code to do the addition with those two types.
2015-05-04T04:45:40Z beach: Right.
2015-05-04T04:45:52Z beach: And one case will be adding two fixnums.
2015-05-04T04:45:59Z beach: And that case turns into a single instruction.
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2015-05-04T04:46:38Z drmeister: And in the case where adding two fixnums and they overflow - that's a runtime check and the second successor of the fixnum-add-instruction.
2015-05-04T04:46:48Z beach: At the moment, I don't see a simple way of making B-+ implementation independent.
2015-05-04T04:47:05Z beach: Right.
2015-05-04T04:47:19Z beach: The FIXNUM-ADD instruction has two successors, one for overflow.
2015-05-04T04:47:49Z beach: I briefly looked at the LLVM language reference, and I didn't see a way to express that.
2015-05-04T04:48:03Z drmeister: Maybe we could write B-+ as a macro that can be customized?
2015-05-04T04:48:16Z beach: No need.
2015-05-04T04:48:29Z drmeister: It's in the LLVM language reference. Hang on.
2015-05-04T04:48:30Z beach: Just let the implementation supply the AST for it as it pleases.
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2015-05-04T04:49:05Z drmeister: http://llvm.org/docs/LangRef.html#arithmetic-with-overflow-intrinsics
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2015-05-04T04:49:43Z beach: OK, good.  Like I said, I just had a brief look.
2015-05-04T04:50:00Z drmeister: That's ok, that took me a long look to find.
2015-05-04T04:50:12Z drmeister: I wasn't sure what I was looking for.
2015-05-04T04:50:31Z drmeister: But that and a branch will do the job.
2015-05-04T04:50:39Z beach: Sure.
2015-05-04T04:51:24Z beach: By having the implementation supply the AST for B-+, it can include only the float types it supports, and it can generate function calls for arbitrary-precision floats.
2015-05-04T04:52:11Z drmeister: Where do arbitrary precision floats come in?
2015-05-04T04:52:30Z beach: So, to summarize, the problem with type inference is not the type inference, but (as usual) a software-engineering problem to make the thing implementation independent and customizable.
2015-05-04T04:53:10Z beach: drmeister: Like I said, some implementations such as CLISP use arbitrary-precision floats for LONG-FLOAT.
2015-05-04T04:53:33Z drmeister: Oh, sorry - I missed that.
2015-05-04T04:53:46Z beach: Such an implementation would probably use a function call to implement B-+ for long-float.
2015-05-04T04:53:47Z drmeister: Right - we were talking about that a few days ago.
2015-05-04T04:54:11Z beach: ... as opposed to using Cleavir-provided instructions such as UNBOX-LONG-FLOAT.
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2015-05-04T04:54:59Z drmeister: Wouldn't the Cleavir provided instructions be used but then lowered to a function call to implement B-+ for long-float?
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2015-05-04T04:55:12Z beach: No.
2015-05-04T04:55:15Z beach: That's too late.
2015-05-04T04:55:23Z beach: It should be done at the AST level.
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2015-05-04T04:55:43Z drmeister: I don't get that?
2015-05-04T04:55:45Z drmeister: .
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2015-05-04T04:57:18Z beach: If it's not a function call at the HIR level, then things become messy, because you don't have a reference to the function name in HIR, so hoisting becomes complicated.
2015-05-04T04:58:03Z beach: So it is best to decide whether it is a function call already at the AST level.  It might be inlined there of course, but a decision should be made there whether to use a specialized HIR instruction or a function call.
2015-05-04T04:59:12Z beach: Another example: Cleavir supplies instructions for loading and storing elements of specialized arrays containing 16-bit integers.  But there is no point in generating those instructions in implementations that don't support such arrays.
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2015-05-04T05:00:09Z beach: drmeister: Does Clasp have 16-bit integer arrays?
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2015-05-04T05:01:23Z drmeister: I see what you mean about the function call at the HIR level.   However, I generate function calls when I generate LLVM-IR all the time.   I call them intrinsic functions - they are like LLVM-IR instructions.
2015-05-04T05:01:40Z drmeister: No, it doesn't have 16-bit integer arrays - what are they good for?
2015-05-04T05:01:44Z beach: drmeister: Then what would you do with a HIR instruction such as UNSIGNED-BYTE-16-AREF followed by a BOX-UNSIGNED-BYTE-16?
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2015-05-04T05:02:46Z beach: drmeister: For example, CD-quality samples are 16 bits.  So you can imagine an implementation that targets sound.
2015-05-04T05:02:50Z drmeister: What it does whenever it doesn't like something - segfault.
2015-05-04T05:03:10Z drmeister: I'm kidding.
2015-05-04T05:03:49Z drmeister: It's like all the other instructions that I mentioned I never see - I wouldn't even see it.
2015-05-04T05:04:15Z beach: drmeister: Well, for SICL, I don't do what you do with LLVM.  I need the functions to be hoisted so that I can turn them into a cell-loading function call at load time.
2015-05-04T05:04:32Z drmeister: You added them for your sound stuff.  Cool.
2015-05-04T05:04:41Z beach: drmeister: If I did what you suggested, then you would see it.
2015-05-04T05:05:26Z beach: You suggested generating unbox-long-float for all implementations, including CLISP.
2015-05-04T05:05:50Z beach: So I would then generate box-unsigned-byte for Clasp too I suppose.
2015-05-04T05:06:15Z beach: You are not suggesting I only do what is convenient for Clasp and possibly inconvenient for CLISP, are you?
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2015-05-04T05:08:41Z beach: Anyway, to summarize, the slow progress on type inference has nothing to do with type inference, and everything to do with software engineering and customization by the implementation.
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2015-05-04T05:10:52Z drmeister: Nope.  Sorry - I was reading back.  I didn't recall suggesting generating unbox-long-float for all implementations including CLISP.   Anyway, I see the wisdom of making it general.  It's like the function you have for creating tagged immediate values - nice.
2015-05-04T05:12:24Z drmeister: Could you remind me what that function was called?  I was just looking for it.  I'm going to have to add support for it once I have immediate fixnums
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2015-05-04T05:12:44Z beach: What function?
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2015-05-04T05:13:42Z drmeister: When I was implementing function-info and variable-info.
2015-05-04T05:14:11Z beach: I am lost, sorry.
2015-05-04T05:14:12Z drmeister: There was an implementation dependent function that I needed to implement to convert integers to immediate/tagged integers.
2015-05-04T05:14:23Z drmeister: For constants.
2015-05-04T05:15:10Z beach: I think I know what you are talking about.  When ASTs are created, right?
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2015-05-04T05:15:34Z drmeister: If you name it - I'll probably remember if that was it.
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2015-05-04T05:15:58Z drmeister: I think so, it was either AST or HIR related.
2015-05-04T05:16:22Z beach: I need to look in the code.
2015-05-04T05:16:42Z drmeister: I was going to make a note of it alongside function-info/variable-info because I'm didn't need to implement it before but I will soon.
2015-05-04T05:17:04Z beach: cleavir-ast:convert-constant-to-immediate.
2015-05-04T05:17:32Z beach: Sorry, cleavir-generate-ast:convert-constant-to-immediate.
2015-05-04T05:18:13Z drmeister: That seemed wordier than I recall.
2015-05-04T05:18:20Z drmeister: I'm looking for it.
2015-05-04T05:19:37Z drmeister: Maybe you changed the name - I don't see it in my local version of SICL.  But I haven't updated it for a couple of weeks.
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2015-05-04T05:20:18Z drmeister: But that's the kind of think I'm learning to appreciate.   I didn't need to do anything with it before because my implementation didn't need it.  Soon it will and then I can implement the function.
2015-05-04T05:21:14Z drmeister: No, don't worry - I'm not pushing you.  I have a lot of external stressors here but they aren't your problems.  I also have a lot of work to do to get immediates working and get Cleavir working again and then start writing the compiler macros and binary functions and figure out inlining.
2015-05-04T05:21:20Z beach: Right, and that's the additional difficulty with making things implementation independent.  Which is why it takes a bit longer.
2015-05-04T05:22:07Z beach: You do have some work to do before you can take advantage of type inference, yes.
2015-05-04T05:22:44Z drmeister: The way it looks, I'll get all this stuff working and tested and when the type inference kicks in - it will just make it faster.
2015-05-04T05:22:55Z beach: That's the idea, yes.
2015-05-04T05:23:09Z beach: Luckily, the type inferencer is not needed for correct code.
2015-05-04T05:23:35Z drmeister: Do you think I'll see any speed up without the type inference?
2015-05-04T05:23:45Z beach: Sure, for inlining.
2015-05-04T05:23:57Z drmeister: And inlining is already working?
2015-05-04T05:24:03Z beach: Rather than calling the function CONSP you will be checking tags.
2015-05-04T05:24:09Z drmeister: I haven't used it yet.
2015-05-04T05:24:10Z beach: Yes, inlining is working.
2015-05-04T05:24:22Z drmeister: I need to ask you about that - but it's late here.
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2015-05-04T05:24:51Z beach: Whenever you are ready.
2015-05-04T05:25:44Z drmeister: ok
2015-05-04T05:26:25Z beach: But it's easy.  Just set :inline to 'cl:inline and supply the AST when you are asked for function-info.
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2015-05-04T05:27:38Z drmeister: Which function takes an :inline keyword?
2015-05-04T05:27:53Z beach: make-instance :)
2015-05-04T05:28:12Z beach: (make-instance 'function-info :inline 'cl-inline :ast <the-ast>)
2015-05-04T05:28:25Z beach: [from memory]
2015-05-04T05:28:41Z drmeister: I see - within cleavir-env:function-info
2015-05-04T05:28:48Z beach: 'cl:inline
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2015-05-04T05:28:59Z drmeister: How do I generate the ASTs for the functions I want to inline?
2015-05-04T05:29:19Z beach: cleavir-ast:generate-ast.
2015-05-04T05:29:36Z beach: You should save the ASTs for functions you want to inline.
2015-05-04T05:29:38Z drmeister: On a DEFUN form? or a lambda form?
2015-05-04T05:30:02Z beach: DEFUN.
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2015-05-04T05:30:25Z beach: The :compile-toplevel of DEFUN should save the AST in the compilation environment.
2015-05-04T05:30:55Z beach: ... and probably the :load-toplevel action as well.
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2015-05-04T05:32:11Z drmeister: I'll ask you more about it tomorrow - I'm dozing off.
2015-05-04T05:32:33Z beach: OK.  Sleep well.
2015-05-04T05:32:49Z drmeister: I saved this conversation.
2015-05-04T05:36:19Z flip214: beach: do you know about SBCL equivalents for these things? I'd like to see type inferences for the variables in some code.
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2015-05-04T05:56:50Z beach: flip214: No, sorry, I don't.
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2015-05-04T05:57:53Z beach: flip214: I find I do better if I only look at existing work after I have tried to figure it out myself from scratch.
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2015-05-04T05:58:12Z flip214: the learning experience, I fully understand.
2015-05-04T05:58:16Z flip214: thanks all the same!
2015-05-04T05:59:12Z beach: flip214: Sorry I couldn't be of more help.  But there are many SBCL developers here, and even more in #sbcl if you need them.
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2015-05-04T13:59:57Z oleo: hello :)
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2015-05-04T14:09:27Z failproofshark: hello all
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2015-05-04T15:05:30Z pjb: clhs loop
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2015-05-04T15:07:46Z ggole_ is now known as ggole
2015-05-04T15:08:39Z Shinmera: specbot is gone :(
2015-05-04T15:08:51Z Shinmera: Colleen: do clhs loop
2015-05-04T15:08:52Z Colleen: Macro LOOP http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm
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2015-05-04T15:47:06Z francogrex: hi its it possible to format 1.0059078d7 to integer using format ?
2015-05-04T15:48:01Z nyef: Pass it through FLOOR first?
2015-05-04T15:48:11Z pjb: (format nil "~,0F" 1.0059078d7) --> "10059078."
2015-05-04T15:48:26Z axion: though that's not an integer
2015-05-04T15:48:29Z pjb: Notice that this syntax is an integer syntax in CL!
2015-05-04T15:48:32Z pjb: It is.
2015-05-04T15:48:33Z francogrex: yes the .
2015-05-04T15:48:40Z axion: it's a string representation
2015-05-04T15:48:47Z pjb: (type-of 10059078.) --> (integer 0 1152921504606846975)
2015-05-04T15:49:00Z pjb: axion: notice the first argument to format.
2015-05-04T15:49:15Z axion: yeah?
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2015-05-04T15:49:42Z francogrex: yes well not ok . must go
2015-05-04T15:51:16Z pjb: format is not omnipotent by itself. You may use ~/
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2015-05-04T15:51:54Z francogrex: yes or floor first...
2015-05-04T15:52:30Z Ralt: hello
2015-05-04T15:52:38Z pjb: kitty
2015-05-04T15:52:54Z Ralt: I have a hard time googling it, but I haven't found any git client written in lisp. Is there any that I don't know of?
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2015-05-04T15:53:09Z pjb: Not yet.
2015-05-04T15:53:21Z Ralt: i.e. a client that can pull/push/fetch/commit/merge/etc.
2015-05-04T15:53:27Z Ralt: damn.
2015-05-04T15:54:13Z Ralt: I guess using libgit2 bindings is the fastest way
2015-05-04T15:55:01Z scymtym_: Ralt: have you seen https://github.com/russell/cl-git?
2015-05-04T15:55:42Z Ralt: scymtym_: I haven't
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2015-05-04T15:57:56Z Ralt: scymtym_: thanks
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2015-05-04T16:50:47Z shka: hello
2015-05-04T16:51:08Z shka: i need any advice
2015-05-04T16:51:41Z shka: i need to substitute a single element in the tree with multiple elements (on after another)
2015-05-04T16:52:05Z shka: is there any way to do that with standard library os i need to manually walk over tree?
2015-05-04T16:52:14Z shka: *or
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2015-05-04T17:00:47Z pjb: clhs subst
2015-05-04T17:02:10Z shka: pjb: how i can use subst to replace single element with multiple?
2015-05-04T17:02:18Z shka: i know what does it do
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2015-05-04T17:03:22Z pjb: shka: I see.  You will have to write your own.  Notice that subst uses the cons tree, so there's no meaning to "multiple".
2015-05-04T17:03:41Z shka: that's fine
2015-05-04T17:03:50Z shka: it is not complicated
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2015-05-04T17:08:21Z drmeister: There is no FIND-TYPE.  How do I get the description of a type defined with DEFTYPE?
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2015-05-04T17:10:21Z Bike: nothing standard
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2015-05-04T17:14:49Z dlowe: (clasp-ext:find-type) should fix your problem
2015-05-04T17:15:03Z dlowe: you know, once it's written.
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2015-05-04T17:19:15Z Bike: on ccl you can do ccl::type-expand, on sbcl there's sb-ext:typexpand
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2015-05-04T17:19:48Z dlowe: ccl's name seems superior.
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2015-05-04T17:25:48Z shka: i really should write macro for tree walking
2015-05-04T17:25:55Z shka: i do this far to often
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2015-05-04T17:29:56Z jasom: shka: why macro and not function?
2015-05-04T17:30:11Z shka: jasom: macro to define functions
2015-05-04T17:31:16Z shka: you know: on branch do that, on leaf do that
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2015-05-04T17:32:28Z shka: anyway
2015-05-04T17:32:29Z shka: done
2015-05-04T17:33:09Z shka: i better start thinking about that macro
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2015-05-04T17:42:06Z nyef: shka: Why a macro? Surely that'd be a function that takes parameters for leaf-action and branch-action?
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2015-05-04T17:45:11Z drmeister: For clasp, something similar to (find-type 'core::index) is:    (get-sysprop 'core::index 'core::deftype-form)
2015-05-04T17:45:26Z drmeister: -->  (DEFTYPE INDEX NIL '(INTEGER 0 -1))
2015-05-04T17:45:30Z drmeister: There's my problem.
2015-05-04T17:45:43Z Bike: i don't think implementations actually preserve the whole thing all the time
2015-05-04T17:45:49Z drmeister: I'm switching to 63bit FIXNUMs  - and I'm not... quite... there yet.
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2015-05-04T17:46:21Z shka: nyef: however, what if i want to check something before?
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2015-05-04T17:47:20Z shka: also, how can i use acumulator?
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2015-05-04T17:47:59Z shka: i'm not any expert but it seems to be the case where you really want to write that macro
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2015-05-04T17:57:09Z Shinmera: In case anyone has Arch and wants to try out clasp: There's now packages on the AUR that should build things for you. See externals-clasp-git and clasp-git.
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2015-05-04T18:06:18Z shka: Shinmera: thank you :-)
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2015-05-04T18:15:46Z pjb: shka: see https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/Nno1qbWeP2M/DemL4JflZgwJ  and https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/AJtPdGwrsrc/T6y_TSWl70AJ
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2015-05-04T18:26:08Z shka: pjb: however, it would require using push instead of cons
2015-05-04T18:26:34Z shka: overall, i consider this to be somewhat more complicated
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2015-05-04T18:28:18Z shka: http://paste.lisp.org/display/147832
2015-05-04T18:28:30Z shka: seriously, it is everything i need at the moment ;-)
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2015-05-04T22:22:48Z trilakin: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2015-05-05T00:35:11Z odds: Hey guys, I have racket installed on my OS X install but I forget which command line options to use to run the full racket environment. Anyone help me out?
2015-05-05T00:36:01Z odds: Longlius: >mfw
2015-05-05T00:36:13Z Longlius: oh hi odds
2015-05-05T00:36:27Z odds: Hey buddy, can u answer my question?
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2015-05-05T00:36:56Z Longlius: odds: drracket
2015-05-05T00:38:12Z odds: Ye.
2015-05-05T00:38:37Z odds: I found it: racket -il xrepl
2015-05-05T00:38:41Z odds: Or (require xrepl)
2015-05-05T00:38:44Z pillton: Longlius: This channel is for common lisp. You are better off asking the question in #scheme or #racket.
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2015-05-05T00:39:01Z odds: Oh yea, I need to go back to #racket.
2015-05-05T00:39:05Z Longlius: yeah odds
2015-05-05T00:39:22Z Longlius: get your scheme rubbish out of here
2015-05-05T00:39:25Z Longlius: lispniks only
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2015-05-05T00:40:22Z odds: Longlius: O-ok... xD
2015-05-05T00:40:30Z Longlius: (not really. all lisp is love all lisp is life)
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2015-05-05T00:40:38Z odds: Haha, I only know Racket.
2015-05-05T00:40:41Z odds: But I will restrain myself.
2015-05-05T00:40:53Z odds: So longggg!!
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2015-05-05T00:41:08Z pillton: Longlius: Sorry, that message was for odds.
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2015-05-05T00:43:20Z Longlius: pillton: it's cool. odds and I are both ops in a channel over on rizon, so I guess he saw me here and figured he'd ask someone he knew
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2015-05-05T00:43:39Z blackwolf: I can't find anything in the ASDF manual that will return the registry config after asdf's read all the .conf files. is there any way to do that?
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2015-05-05T00:53:52Z viaken: What do you folks think about picolisp?
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2015-05-05T00:56:00Z Longlius: viaken: it's neat, but I prefer something like Forth if I'm working that close to the metal
2015-05-05T01:00:00Z viaken: Interesting
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2015-05-05T01:04:47Z kephra: Longlius, there is no forth close to the metal anymore - Forth as an operating system did not manage to step from 16bit to 32bit pointers
2015-05-05T01:05:23Z kephra: only exceptions are systems like VolX4th, that was used by CuBase for Atari, Amiga and early PC
2015-05-05T01:05:28Z nyef: kephra: Bullshit.
2015-05-05T01:05:47Z Longlius: there's plenty of 32-bit forth implementations
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2015-05-05T01:06:36Z nyef: A "bare metal" 32-bit forth implementation is a not-unheard-of hobbyist project. And then there's the various OpenFirmware-style systems...
2015-05-05T01:06:49Z scoofy: technically, could be done
2015-05-05T01:07:25Z scoofy: and there are some 32 bit forths
2015-05-05T01:07:49Z Longlius: if I have a 32-bit machine though, I'm probably not going to be writing anything like forth though. I'll be using a full OS like GNU/Linux
2015-05-05T01:09:14Z Longlius: for an 8-bit microcontroller like the 68HC11 (which I worked with during my undergrad) though, forth is quite nice to have
2015-05-05T01:15:13Z nyef: If I have a 32-bit machine that I'm bringing up from scratch? I'll grab Forth immediately.
2015-05-05T01:15:44Z nyef: If I'm actually looking to do something useful quickly, then I may just grab Linux.
2015-05-05T01:15:47Z nyef: It's a bit situational.
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2015-05-05T01:17:41Z Longlius: I've never really had to bring a 32-bit machine up from scratch, but if I did, I'd probably grab forth
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2015-05-05T01:23:30Z cluck: what "no forth on baremetal" foolishness is this?! http://www.ultratechnology.com/chips.htm
2015-05-05T01:24:22Z kephra: cluck, and how many people do you know in real life, who have seen one of those chips?
2015-05-05T01:24:49Z Longlius: how many people do you know in real life who have seen any microprocessor?
2015-05-05T01:26:05Z Longlius: appeals to real life aren't really indicative of anything
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2015-05-05T01:27:33Z cluck: kephra: Chuck Moore apparently makes a nice living out of them so it can't be too few given the prices i've heard about (and he's just one person on that market, although a well reputed one)
2015-05-05T01:29:36Z kephra: just my $.02 - Forth had been a viable platform in the 70s and 80s - but now its more a thing of the past.
2015-05-05T01:29:54Z kephra: unlike Lisp, where killer applications (EMACS, AutoCAD) kept it alive
2015-05-05T01:29:55Z cluck: Longlius: true, most people never heard of the L4 kernel and odds are they have it running somewhere in their house
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2015-05-05T01:30:45Z nyef: "Lisp had been a viable platform in the 70s and 80s - but now its more a thing of the past, unlike Forth, where killer applications (OpenFirmware) kept it alive."
2015-05-05T01:31:22Z nyef: Honestly, just about any post-PCI-transition, pre-EFI Mac has Forth in it.
2015-05-05T01:31:35Z nyef: The OLPC has Forth in it.
2015-05-05T01:32:09Z cluck: yeah, openfirmware and some efi implementations are forth based
2015-05-05T01:32:35Z kephra: but its a difference - in the 80s every music studio had a Forth system: it was called Steinberg CuBase
2015-05-05T01:32:52Z nyef: These days, they have Macs instead.
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2015-05-05T01:33:20Z kephra: i see no longer any applications that need to take control over the complete machine, bare metal, to write their own OS
2015-05-05T01:33:33Z kephra: ... outside embedded controllers
2015-05-05T01:33:51Z nyef: ... ever see a 32-bit embedded controller programmed in Forth?
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2015-05-05T01:38:17Z kephra: btw seriously, just code a CPS and drop it into CFA, and you have a Lisp ;-)
2015-05-05T01:39:01Z kephra: thats the most unusual and best feature of the language - you can code your own bytecode interpreter
2015-05-05T01:39:21Z cluck: i suspect he's just bummed there aren't any canon cats around anymore, failing to realize existing "embedded systems" have more code, take in more io and churn more data than any m68k ever could dream of
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2015-05-05T01:44:58Z Petit_Dejeuner_: canon cats? Those type writer things?
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2015-05-05T01:48:20Z quazimod1: pjb: hi pascal, are you around?
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2015-05-05T01:50:30Z quazimod1: pjb: one time ago you showed me an image of a fashion parade vs some sort of industrial waste/nuclear station thing
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2015-05-05T01:50:43Z quazimod1: you said you were in teh business of hte latter, not the former
2015-05-05T01:50:56Z quazimod1: do you still have that image?
2015-05-05T01:51:59Z quazimod1: natohuatohu
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2015-05-05T02:57:30Z akkad: CL is probably one of the easiest things to sneak in, other than Golang. binaries make a big difference
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2015-05-05T03:01:19Z vr-rm: Hey guys, this may have been mentioned before, but the big Symbolics blow-out is currently going on on ebay:
2015-05-05T03:01:20Z vr-rm: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Symbolics-MacIvory-model-3-co-processor-in-Apple-Mac-Quadra-700-with-Genera-8-3-/111662317576?
2015-05-05T03:01:45Z akkad: I just run it on my alpha
2015-05-05T03:01:47Z nyef: Now if only it was a TI machine instead... d-:
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2015-05-05T03:02:33Z akkad: nubus?
2015-05-05T03:02:42Z akkad: I think I've got one of those floating around
2015-05-05T03:03:31Z vr-rm: two Ivory model 3s and two model two and some 36xx bords will be auctioned in the next few days. (according to symbolics-dks)
2015-05-05T03:03:51Z nyef: akkad: The microExplorer?
2015-05-05T03:04:12Z akkad: I'd have to look
2015-05-05T03:04:18Z nyef: Hrm.
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2015-05-05T03:04:40Z nyef: If you've got the software that goes with it as well, that would be rather interesting.
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2015-05-05T03:05:25Z nyef: Heck, even if you JUST have the software for it, but it's a complete set of install images, Quadrescence would probably like a copy.
2015-05-05T03:05:40Z Quadrescence: copy of what!
2015-05-05T03:06:03Z nyef: mX software. Entirely hypothetical at this point.
2015-05-05T03:06:11Z Quadrescence: Sounds GREAT!
2015-05-05T03:06:11Z vr-rm: Shockingly (to me) there's an emulator of the microExplorer written entirely in Lisp that actually boot the old disk images: meroku
2015-05-05T03:06:32Z nyef: vr-rm: Wrong! meroku was written in C. Nevermore is the one that's in Lisp.
2015-05-05T03:06:48Z Quadrescence: I wonder what great, fantastic person wrote Nevermore.
2015-05-05T03:06:52Z nyef: And they're Explorer I emulators, not microExplorer emulators.
2015-05-05T03:06:56Z vr-rm: http://www.unlambda.com/meroko/
2015-05-05T03:06:56Z nyef: Quadrescence: Hah!
2015-05-05T03:08:23Z nyef: I find the Nevermore code to be rather crude in its style, as though it was the first serious Lisp project written by its author.
2015-05-05T03:08:47Z vr-rm: re: microexplorer vs explorer I think you're right, TI Explorer only.
2015-05-05T03:09:20Z Quadrescence: I have a good lead on mX full software & hardware. Just need to do the roadtrip one of these days.
2015-05-05T03:09:45Z nyef: Quadrescence: An extra mX board?
2015-05-05T03:09:59Z Quadrescence: Yes
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2015-05-05T03:10:25Z nyef: About how much?
2015-05-05T03:10:49Z Quadrescence: How much [?]?
2015-05-05T03:11:16Z nyef: (This is not a prelude to trying to snipe it, it's a prelude to evaluating if I want to offer to split the cost for the spare mX and a copy of the software.)
2015-05-05T03:11:31Z Quadrescence: I think I can get it at no cost.
2015-05-05T03:11:42Z nyef: Ah, nice.
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2015-05-05T03:12:00Z Quadrescence: If I do have the board, it might need to be fixed though. I think there's a broken pin. Can you fix that junk?
2015-05-05T03:12:27Z vr-rm: Nevermore (the lisp) and  Meroku (the c) are both brutish.  But an incredible feat or reverse engineering.
2015-05-05T03:12:31Z nyef: Maybe.
2015-05-05T03:13:08Z Quadrescence: nyef, If you want a board, I will have two. I usually like to have two, but to someone Of Your Stature, I may be able to part with one.
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2015-05-05T03:13:18Z Quadrescence: But I will cross that bridge when I have two.
2015-05-05T03:13:45Z nyef: Quadrescence: Sounds good. For something that rare and possibly-useful, I can certainly understand wanting to have two.
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2015-05-05T03:13:52Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-05-05T03:13:56Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-05-05T03:14:15Z Quadrescence: nyef, I'd rather have one and the other in the hands of someone who might know a thing or two, than owning two and doing nothing.
2015-05-05T03:15:05Z nyef: Quadrescence: The other approach, I suppose, is a full copy of the software, and once I have the time to sit down and figure out how to hack up custom microloads some assistance in trying to get a copy of the on-chip ROM image.
2015-05-05T03:15:38Z Quadrescence: Hmm :)
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2015-05-05T03:16:59Z nyef: I'd have to think up a suitable name for a Hummingbird emulator, though.
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2015-05-05T03:17:13Z nyef: ...
2015-05-05T03:17:28Z nyef: And probably figure out how to build a Mac IIfx emulator or something like that.
2015-05-05T03:17:36Z Quadrescence: Rabbit hole.
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2015-05-05T03:17:40Z nyef: Or even possibly a Quadra emulator.
2015-05-05T03:17:47Z nyef: Yeah, that way lies the tar pit.
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2015-05-05T03:19:38Z nyef: Heh. I'm reminded of how the Explorer 3 project was using a microExplorer load band image.
2015-05-05T03:19:54Z nyef: And never emulated even ONE instruction out of it.
2015-05-05T03:20:09Z nyef: Sat and bitched for years about "oh, function calling, so hard".
2015-05-05T03:21:07Z nyef tries to remember what the predecessor project to Nevermore was called.
2015-05-05T03:21:07Z Quadrescence: :)))
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2015-05-05T03:27:26Z drmeister: Hello
2015-05-05T03:27:29Z drmeister: Hello beach
2015-05-05T03:27:40Z beach: Hello drmeister.
2015-05-05T03:28:58Z isaac_rks: hello fags
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2015-05-05T03:30:56Z nyef: Oh, right! "exploiter".
2015-05-05T03:31:11Z Quadrescence: haha
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2015-05-05T03:34:53Z nyef: Man, I haven't thought about some of this stuff in ages. (-:
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2015-05-05T03:35:58Z nyef: Now it's all SBCL this and PostgreSQL that and Linux on SGI Origin 350 the other...
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2015-05-05T03:46:49Z beach: drmeister: It looks like you have a decent-sized crowd helping you with Clasp.
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2015-05-05T03:58:25Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2015-05-05T04:22:27Z axion: morning all
2015-05-05T04:27:09Z Petit_Dejeuner: Quadrescence, Thanks for the code. When I was reading about locatives, I was under the impression they were just an implementation detail of how older lisp machines represented functions. Are these two different terms or is their some kind of equivlence between them?
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2015-05-05T04:36:43Z beach: Hello axion.
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2015-05-05T04:40:08Z axion: Hi beach. How are you doing?
2015-05-05T04:40:43Z beach: axion: Fine thanks.  I am trying to come up with some terminology...
2015-05-05T04:40:49Z axion: I finally fixed a memory leak that has been plaguing me for about 2 weeks.
2015-05-05T04:40:57Z beach: Congratulations.
2015-05-05T04:41:10Z nyef: Memory leaks suck.
2015-05-05T04:41:13Z axion: Thanks, what kind of terminology?
2015-05-05T04:41:49Z beach: The SICL compiler creates code that is independent of any global environment.  Then, in a separate phase, that code is "linked" to a particular environment.
2015-05-05T04:42:05Z axion: Yes especially when dealing with lots of memory to begin with as such with a game. Restarting image 100 times/day was getting old.
2015-05-05T04:42:08Z beach: But I don't like "linked" and I need a name for that "independent" code.
2015-05-05T04:42:35Z nyef: "embedded" in a particular environment?
2015-05-05T04:42:48Z beach: That's a possibility.
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2015-05-05T04:43:08Z beach: What about the contrary?
2015-05-05T04:43:38Z nyef: "context-free"?
2015-05-05T04:43:51Z nyef: (Okay, not quite serious there.)
2015-05-05T04:43:57Z beach: Yeah, not great.
2015-05-05T04:44:18Z beach: Maybe loose and tied?
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2015-05-05T04:44:27Z nyef: Like shoelaces?
2015-05-05T04:44:42Z beach: Yeah.
2015-05-05T04:45:10Z beach: OK, I'll check the synonyms for something with that meaning but better-sounding.
2015-05-05T04:45:34Z nyef: How about "loaded" into an environment?
2015-05-05T04:45:53Z beach: The word "loaded" is, er, loaded.
2015-05-05T04:46:01Z beach: cf LOAD.
2015-05-05T04:46:11Z nyef: In a way, it's OVERLOADED. d-:
2015-05-05T04:48:33Z pillton: No one likes loaded questions.
2015-05-05T04:48:47Z nyef: A lot of people like loaded baked potatoes.
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2015-05-05T04:50:32Z pillton: Environment independent code? EIC?
2015-05-05T04:51:14Z beach: I prefer short, real, and catchy words.
2015-05-05T04:51:16Z pinterface haphazardly suggests "raw" and "baked", just to continue the potato analogy.
2015-05-05T04:51:45Z beach: pinterface: Yeah, that's more in line with what I am looking for.
2015-05-05T04:52:16Z beach: But I think I'll go for untied/tied.  Then I have a verb to: to tie.
2015-05-05T04:52:56Z beach: So now, EVAL = COMPILE + TIE.
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2015-05-05T04:55:09Z beach: The reason I need this is that for bootstrapping purposes, code can be compiled in one environment and then tied to a different one.
2015-05-05T04:55:13Z axion: loose/tight?
2015-05-05T04:55:44Z beach: Yeah, I suggested loose a bit earlier.
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2015-05-05T04:56:00Z beach: But I don't quite like the negative connotation.
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2015-05-05T04:57:46Z beach: It doesn't matter that much.  I mean, it can easily be change with a global replace if something better pops up.  So for now, I'll go for "untied", "tied", and "to tie".
2015-05-05T04:57:54Z pillton: compile + couple?
2015-05-05T04:58:13Z beach: I considered that.
2015-05-05T04:58:19Z pinterface: Tie/tied/etc. certainly flow off the tongue nicely.
2015-05-05T04:58:23Z beach: "uncoupled" is a bit too long.
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2015-05-05T04:59:06Z pillton: You get alliteration with compile + couple. It will sell better. :)
2015-05-05T04:59:15Z beach: Nice! :)
2015-05-05T04:59:39Z beach: And doing both would be cumpile
2015-05-05T05:00:07Z beach: or comple.
2015-05-05T05:00:42Z nyef: The latter rather than the former, I hope?
2015-05-05T05:00:42Z pillton: Hmm.. Not sure about that. (distance "cumpile" "crumble") => :small.
2015-05-05T05:01:33Z nyef: I keep parsing cumpile with a hyphen between the m and the p.
2015-05-05T05:01:49Z beach: Heh!
2015-05-05T05:02:00Z beach: Let's not go for that.
2015-05-05T05:02:27Z beach: People will think it's part of Climacs.
2015-05-05T05:02:42Z axion: Yeah, especially if it was preceded by a cumload
2015-05-05T05:02:47Z nyef: What was that about a "tradition of names which make marketing shudder"?
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2015-05-05T05:03:59Z beach: The "market" quickly gets used to strange names it seems.  "Chaosnet" comes to mind, but there are others that I can't remember now.
2015-05-05T05:04:07Z pinterface: Man, and all I could come up with is that "tie" must produce some "knotted" state somehow.
2015-05-05T05:04:16Z pinterface is terrible at punning tonight.
2015-05-05T05:06:26Z beach: Now I have to rewrite the chapter on bootstrapping in the SICL specification, because when I wrote it, I didn't have first-class global environments.
2015-05-05T05:07:08Z beach: In fact, part of the reason I had to invent first-class global environments was that bootstrapping became such a mess without them.
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2015-05-05T05:44:31Z drmeister: Hey beach - I fixed a bunch of problems in clasp related to now illegal casts and 63bit fixnums.
2015-05-05T05:44:40Z beach: Excellent!
2015-05-05T05:45:28Z drmeister: One consequence was I had to take out a bunch of ASSERTs for NULL smart_ptr's.   FIXNUM zero (0) is now equal to NULL 0x0000000000
2015-05-05T05:45:52Z drmeister: No matter.
2015-05-05T05:46:10Z beach: Oh, I had a question about smart pointers.
2015-05-05T05:46:23Z drmeister: I'm going to switch to immediate FIXNUMs right away.
2015-05-05T05:46:29Z drmeister: Sure - what's up?
2015-05-05T05:46:31Z beach: How big are they, and what do they contain?
2015-05-05T05:46:39Z drmeister: 64bits.
2015-05-05T05:47:01Z drmeister: They are a struct that contains a single 64bit word on 64bit machines.
2015-05-05T05:47:18Z drmeister: No virtual functions, no vtable.
2015-05-05T05:47:21Z beach: And what does the word contain?
2015-05-05T05:47:33Z drmeister: 64bits of goodness.
2015-05-05T05:47:40Z drmeister: The low three bits are the tag.
2015-05-05T05:47:50Z drmeister: The rest is pointer or fixnum.
2015-05-05T05:48:12Z beach: So it's a tagged pointer.  What makes it smart then?
2015-05-05T05:48:48Z drmeister: That it does the tagging and untagging/dereferencing using methods.
2015-05-05T05:49:10Z drmeister: But it's more of a hold-over from when I used reference counting shared_ptr
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2015-05-05T05:49:51Z beach: I am not talking Clasp-specific stuff here.  I am asking about C++ smart pointers and what makes them smart.
2015-05-05T05:50:00Z drmeister: I made sure that I did all pointer access through this pointer class because I planned down the road (now) to switch to tagged pointers.
2015-05-05T05:50:53Z drmeister: I guess compared to raw pointers they are smart.
2015-05-05T05:51:46Z beach: Wow.
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2015-05-05T05:52:23Z drmeister: It's an abstract class that behaves like a pointer but can do extra work to display more complex behavior than raw pointers.
2015-05-05T05:53:29Z drmeister: The idea is that you specialize them on different types and they can have complex behavior because you can overload the dereferencing operators.
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2015-05-05T05:53:51Z beach: Got it.  Thanks.
2015-05-05T05:54:23Z drmeister: They came in handy for me because if I had used raw pointers then implementing tagging/untagging-dereferencing would have required massive changes to the code.
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2015-05-05T05:55:06Z drmeister: But yeah - slightly_less_stupid_ptr would be more apropos.
2015-05-05T05:55:17Z pillton: drmeister: Aren't they supposed to indicate the owner of the memory occupied by the object as well ?
2015-05-05T05:55:34Z pillton: drmeister: Is your smart pointer built for Clasp?
2015-05-05T05:55:54Z drmeister: Yes, now it's built for Clasp.
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2015-05-05T05:56:00Z akkad: ecl support socket in ql? https://gist.github.com/97484072cf95716c7aca
2015-05-05T05:56:05Z pillton: Ok. Nevermind what I said then.
2015-05-05T05:56:56Z pillton: akkad: Are you asking a question?
2015-05-05T05:57:11Z akkad: </interrogative>
2015-05-05T05:57:13Z akkad: yes
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2015-05-05T05:58:41Z pillton: Are you looking for a library which supports sockets that works in ECL?
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2015-05-05T05:59:48Z akkad: assuming that is the problem the error above reflects.
2015-05-05T06:00:21Z pillton: What error? I only see the banner printed by ECL.
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2015-05-05T06:04:28Z akkad: sorry, gist got truncated. https://gist.github.com/5bf865124874bc44f9f1
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2015-05-05T06:08:50Z pillton: akkad: I can't help with you that at present sorry. I remember having trouble with ASDF and ECL's prebuilt system stuff in the past. This was a long time ago though.
2015-05-05T06:09:21Z pillton: akkad: The mailing list is quite active at present.
2015-05-05T06:09:50Z pillton: akkad: I suggest reducing this problem down to something simple that people can execute themselves.
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2015-05-05T06:11:29Z akkad: git clone http://github.com/ober/cloudtrail-cl && cd cloudtrail-cl && cat delivery.lisp|ecl
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2015-05-05T06:12:33Z pillton: Simple as in, the minimum amount of code possible to reproduce your problem.
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2015-05-05T06:16:29Z akkad: agreed. thanks
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2015-05-05T06:18:27Z akkad: seems that just loading ql is sufficient to trigger it
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2015-05-05T07:46:25Z Shinmera: axion: So what was the cause of your memory leak?
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2015-05-05T07:49:53Z axion: Shinmera: Well I was keeping geometry data around in a slot even after uploading it to the GPU at load-time. However the instance *special* containing that slot was NIL'd. Why this was not being detected by the GC is beyond me, but it's fixed by not even storing it in the slot to begin with.
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2015-05-05T07:54:01Z Shinmera: Huh.
2015-05-05T07:54:35Z jackdaniel: akkad: are you using ecl-11.1.1? it's pretty old
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2015-05-05T07:55:33Z jackdaniel: there were releases in 2012, 2013 and 2015 in between
2015-05-05T07:56:11Z axion: Yeah it baffles me since there is no reference to the previous several hundred MB data each run
2015-05-05T07:56:48Z axion: Somehow the GC thinks it shouldnt clear it, or possibly gives it low priority for some reason, but not enough priority when restarting the game a few times in a short period of time
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2015-05-05T07:57:19Z axion: Now that I found the cause and fixed it, I'm even more confused ha
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2015-05-05T08:01:37Z jackdaniel: akkad: http://ix.io/ihS
2015-05-05T08:01:44Z jackdaniel: it loads fine
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2015-05-05T08:58:05Z zacts: what is the main use case for ECL versus SBCL?
2015-05-05T08:58:42Z Shinmera: probably its namesake.
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2015-05-05T09:00:14Z H4ns: zacts: ECL can compile to C.  that creates the hope that it could be used as CL implementation to be used on phones.
2015-05-05T09:00:24Z zacts: oh I see
2015-05-05T09:00:38Z zacts: so it's kind of like the CL equivalent to chicken scheme
2015-05-05T09:00:45Z H4ns: zacts: if you will
2015-05-05T09:01:09Z zacts: H4ns: although, I heard that SBCL is being ported to android?
2015-05-05T09:01:11Z H4ns: zacts: "E" stands for embeddable
2015-05-05T09:01:21Z zacts: so perhaps SBCL will run on android phones too?
2015-05-05T09:01:29Z Shinmera: zacts: SBCL doesn't have a .so version, so you need a subprocess to run it from an app, which is messy.
2015-05-05T09:01:30Z H4ns: zacts: perhaps.  as would clozure cl
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2015-05-05T09:01:38Z zacts: ok
2015-05-05T09:02:37Z Shinmera: Though sbcl.so is something that people want to work on, so it will probably be available some day.
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2015-05-05T09:14:55Z loke: Shinmera: note that running it in the same process as another dynamic language may not be feasible though
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2015-05-05T09:15:24Z loke: I don't don't about Dalvik or ART, but with if SBCL and the JVM runs in the same process, it will crash because both of them catch and act on SEGV
2015-05-05T09:16:48Z Shinmera: I'm well aware.
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2015-05-05T09:32:49Z schjetne: I might be approaching the problem from the wrong end, but is there a way to drop into the debugger and view the stack right before the last function returns? I have a case of works on my machine(tm) and while I can see what goes wrong in the debugger, I'd like to see what happens when it goes right without manually walking a lot of SBCL implementation code.
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2015-05-05T09:35:06Z schjetne: Step is probably the right tool for the job here
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2015-05-05T09:36:09Z H4ns: schjetne: trace :break does not help?
2015-05-05T09:36:26Z Shinmera: You can also try using dissect to get an inspectable stack trace.
2015-05-05T09:36:37Z Shinmera: http://shinmera.github.io/dissect/
2015-05-05T09:36:44Z H4ns: schjetne: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Function-Tracing
2015-05-05T09:37:36Z schjetne: Shinmera: sounds exactly like what I need
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2015-05-05T09:38:09Z schjetne: H4ns: thanks, I should have gone straight to the SBCL manual, they would of course have more in this department than the hyperspec
2015-05-05T09:39:01Z Shinmera should get around to seeing about supporting LispWorks and Clasp.
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2015-05-05T10:22:08Z jackdaniel: zacts: one of ECL distinct features is that you can embed C in lisp and vice versa, therefore you can attach ecl w/o hussel to your C/other-language-with-sane-FFI/ as shared module
2015-05-05T10:22:25Z jackdaniel: something like guile for gnu project with it's scheme language inside
2015-05-05T10:23:20Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: namesake? could you kindly elaborate?
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2015-05-05T10:38:30Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: The E in ECL stands for Embeddable.
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2015-05-05T10:44:51Z jackdaniel: I'm aware of this expansion, yet I wasn't sure what do you mean - Steel Bank doesn't say much about SBCL usecase, so it wasn't clear to me
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2015-05-05T11:30:08Z lieven: Steel Bank is a calque on Carnegie Mellon. SBCL is a fork from CMUCL.
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2015-05-05T11:47:32Z Ukari: When I enter "()" in emacs lisp-mode,if i delete one of "(" or ")",both of them will disappear.But sometimes I want to input "()" to surround the code which has been existed
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2015-05-05T11:50:04Z schjetne: Ukari: are you using paredit?
2015-05-05T11:50:46Z Ukari: schjetne:seems to be not
2015-05-05T11:51:56Z schjetne: Because I don't think stock Emacs does that
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2015-05-05T11:52:41Z schjetne: What does your mode line show?
2015-05-05T11:52:42Z Ukari: I use this conf https://github.com/purcell/emacs.d
2015-05-05T11:53:22Z schjetne: I'd really rather not read all of that
2015-05-05T11:53:33Z Ukari: not the lisp-mode,it is slime-mode
2015-05-05T11:53:54Z schjetne: List all the modes in your buffer
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2015-05-05T11:54:59Z schjetne: Better yet, position the point to where you do the delete, then hit C-h c and the delete button
2015-05-05T11:55:06Z schjetne: And tell us what you see in the echo area
2015-05-05T11:56:38Z Ukari: schjetne:DEL(translated from <backspace>) runs the command paredit-backward-delete
2015-05-05T11:56:51Z schjetne: Ah, you are running paredit
2015-05-05T11:57:23Z schjetne: Just do a paredit-forward-slurp-sexp to wrap your expression in parens
2015-05-05T11:57:24Z Ukari: schjetne:sorry i don't know i use it before
2015-05-05T11:57:38Z schjetne: That's C-<rightarrow>
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2015-05-05T11:59:02Z schjetne: Ukari: learn how to use paredit by typing C-h f paredit-mode <RET>
2015-05-05T11:59:44Z schjetne: In the future, you should probably ask Emacs questions in #emacs and only Lisp questions here
2015-05-05T11:59:51Z Xach: i found the one-page cheat sheet for paredit quite helpful
2015-05-05T11:59:51Z minion: Xach, memo from madnificent: Related to the docker story: I defined a docker instance for hosting common lisp webservices.  See https://registry.hub.docker.com/u/madnificent/lisp-webservice/
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2015-05-05T12:00:01Z Shinmera: Ukari: Or use http://danmidwood.com/content/2014/11/21/animated-paredit.html
2015-05-05T12:00:07Z Ukari: schjetne:ok,thanks
2015-05-05T12:00:49Z Shinmera: What are people lisping about nowadays? Any new interesting projects?
2015-05-05T12:01:12Z schjetne: Shinmera: awesome resource!
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2015-05-05T12:04:53Z nyef: Shinmera: Most of my lisping has been for work recently, with my major non-work project being trying to get some hardware to run Linux so that I can use it as an SBCL build box.
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2015-05-05T12:06:02Z Shinmera: nyef: Can you share any specifics about your work lisping?
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2015-05-05T12:06:33Z SAL9000: Shinmera: might be just me, but quite a few of those GIFs seem to be broken
2015-05-05T12:07:02Z Shinmera: SAL9000: They all work for me. Check your browser console.
2015-05-05T12:07:16Z nyef: It's a pretty basic setup in some ways. An API server that communicates via JSON over HTTP. Hunchentoot, ST-JSON, Postmodern, and so on.
2015-05-05T12:07:26Z SAL9000: Ah, never mind, refreshing helped. Strange.
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2015-05-05T12:08:01Z Shinmera: nyef: I have to do something similar for my own job (CL too!) next.
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2015-05-05T12:09:20Z nyef: One thing that we've found is that the max_connections parameter on the database is a scaling limit... and that the version of hunchentoot we're using doesn't scale will on the default taskmaster.
2015-05-05T12:09:50Z Shinmera: I hope you're using a cache in front of hunchentoot?
2015-05-05T12:10:46Z nyef: Haven't really figured out how to cache most of the data. /-:
2015-05-05T12:10:56Z Shinmera: Ah.
2015-05-05T12:12:41Z Shinmera: The more specific version of my task is that we need to deliver sensor data to the web-page that then visualises it. Since there's however just a huge lot (tens of megabytes) downloading the entire file at once would give rather unfortunate load times, so I have to figure out how to stream the data efficiently.
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2015-05-05T12:13:32Z SAL9000: Does all of the data need to be visible at all times?
2015-05-05T12:13:56Z Shinmera: SAL9000: No, it's essentially an animation.
2015-05-05T12:14:03Z SAL9000: Real-time?
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2015-05-05T12:14:27Z Shinmera: The amount of frames depends on the recording, but playback should be real-time, yes.
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2015-05-05T12:14:58Z SAL9000: Sounds like the way to go might be server-side rendering + existing video-streaming solutions
2015-05-05T12:15:08Z Shinmera: No, it's 3D data.
2015-05-05T12:15:11Z SAL9000: ...Ah.
2015-05-05T12:15:45Z Shinmera: Either way, I'm sure I can figure something out. The trick will mostly be figuring out how many frames to deliver for each async request.
2015-05-05T12:16:06Z Shinmera: Or to use websockets, though I'm not favourable towards that.
2015-05-05T12:16:28Z nyef: ... Make it a parameter on the request?
2015-05-05T12:16:40Z SAL9000: perhaps start from some default value, then adjust based on the time between requests?
2015-05-05T12:16:59Z Shinmera: SAL9000: Yeah, most likely. But I'll know better once I can actually test it :)
2015-05-05T12:17:02Z nyef: That way, you can write the lisp code, and push the decision onto the client side.
2015-05-05T12:17:13Z Shinmera: nyef: Yes, that's the plan.
2015-05-05T12:17:33Z nyef: ... But, as SAL9000 says, have a default as well. (-:
2015-05-05T12:17:40Z SAL9000: Unless you're using websockets, you're pretty much reimplementing bits of TCP
2015-05-05T12:18:12Z Shinmera should get around to reading the TCP spec some day
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2015-05-05T12:18:45Z SAL9000: literature on TCP's slow-start system may be useful, although outdated given today's network infra
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2015-05-05T12:20:08Z pjb: quazimodo: nope. it was a random picture found with google image.
2015-05-05T12:20:10Z nyef: Don't forget some of the interesting stuff that Teclo does with the TCP protocol.
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2015-05-05T12:21:27Z nyef has just figured out why he's seeing PCI resource conflicts between separate buses in the same system.
2015-05-05T12:21:55Z SAL9000: Shinmera: an oversimplified view of TCP congestion control: while no errors, exponential growth; after the first error, additive growth, after 3 errors, stop, reset to the speed when the first error appeared.
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2015-05-05T12:22:50Z SAL9000: then additive growth again. If 5 errors, reset to default speed and exponential growth again.
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2015-05-05T12:27:44Z pjb: quazimod1: nope. it was a random picture found with google image.
2015-05-05T12:28:44Z Shinmera: SAL9000: I'll take a look.
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2015-05-05T12:42:08Z pjb: zacts: gcc -o your-program your-program.o -lecl
2015-05-05T12:44:19Z pjb: schjetne: break is the most conforming.  Otherwise your implementation may provide some extension in the arguments to trace.
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2015-05-05T12:47:37Z pjb: Ukari: use M-( to wrap the following sexp in parentheses.
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2015-05-05T13:01:49Z drmeister: nyef: Hello.
2015-05-05T13:01:54Z drmeister: nyef:  On calling conventions - is this correct?   SBCL passes some arguments in registers and the rest on the stack.  In non-trivial cases (required + optional arguments only) it copies all of the arguments into a special array and processes them there?
2015-05-05T13:02:09Z drmeister: nyef: For the most general call.
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2015-05-05T13:03:46Z nyef: non-trivial cases (rest and key arguments), maybe?
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2015-05-05T13:03:58Z drmeister: Yes
2015-05-05T13:04:47Z nyef: In those cases, the "more arg" (everything after the last optional) is moved into a separate blob on the stack.
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2015-05-05T13:05:58Z drmeister: I see, so you move everything after the last optional onto a separate place on the stack
2015-05-05T13:06:24Z drmeister: repeating back what you said.
2015-05-05T13:06:28Z drmeister: while I think on it.
2015-05-05T13:06:54Z nyef: There might be a shortcut where it goes directly to allocating list structure if the only use is a rest argument. It's been a little while, so my memory is hazy, and someone might have gotten clever at some point.
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2015-05-05T13:08:20Z drmeister: Thanks. I need to change the calling convention of Clasp - I'm looking for license to do it like I just described.  If I understand SBCL's approach correctly then I can implement that approach.
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2015-05-05T13:16:13Z quazimodo: pjb: remember what you searched for?
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2015-05-05T13:27:49Z pjb: quazimodo: that was probably 2 pictures too.
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2015-05-05T13:29:14Z quazimodo: pjb: lol yeah
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2015-05-05T13:30:21Z quazimodo: the industrial photograph was cool
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2015-05-05T14:06:15Z schjetne: nyef: I have a similar setup to yours at work. Have you looked at woo, the new asynchronous web server?
2015-05-05T14:07:24Z schjetne: https://github.com/fukamachi/woo
2015-05-05T14:07:31Z schjetne: Twice as fast as Node.js
2015-05-05T14:07:52Z nyef: Not yet. Right now I'm more-or-less swamped by infrastructure work not directly related to scaling out the lisp web server, but woo does look interesting.
2015-05-05T14:11:47Z schjetne: How's ST-JSON? I haven't tried that one yet. I mostly use Yason
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2015-05-05T14:15:44Z nyef: When I started using it, I did a survey of the available JSON libraries, and it was the only one that was able to express arrays, booleans, null, presence/absence of fields, and so on, without aliasing some two of the concepts.
2015-05-05T14:16:51Z nyef: I don't know if that's still the case, but I feel that any time you can't distinguish between two concepts in what amounts to a wire protocol like that, you run into cases where it is absolutely necessary to do so.
2015-05-05T14:17:56Z schjetne: Yes, I've had to use some unsightly workarounds for this myself. It's fine if you're writing both the program consuming and producing it to use a subset, but sometimes you don't have that luxury.
2015-05-05T14:18:09Z quazimodo: fork > threads!
2015-05-05T14:18:32Z nyef: A simple example: Sometimes it's important to express null separately from a non-existing field. Many class-metadata-based JSON libraries in other languages (such as Java) can't do this, both unsupplied fields and explicitly null fields get parsed as a nil, and when generating they are rendered as unsupplied even when they need to be explicitly null.
2015-05-05T14:18:55Z nyef: Or conflating the empty array with the false value?
2015-05-05T14:19:14Z quazimodo: schjetne: haskell snap's fast as fuck too
2015-05-05T14:19:20Z nyef: And then there's conflating [], null, AND false into the same concept!
2015-05-05T14:19:25Z nyef: Just... ugh!
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2015-05-05T14:19:52Z nyef: So, I went with the ONE library that had separate concepts for all of the different JSON types.
2015-05-05T14:22:06Z axion: nyef: last time i used yason, which was a while ago, you could define preferences as to how to interpret false or [] as such
2015-05-05T14:23:47Z schjetne: axion: there still is, but I still need to wrap everything dealing with booleans in functions translating between 'false and nil
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2015-05-05T14:24:34Z schjetne: I'm thinking there ought to be a metaclass for objects that can be turned into JSON, specifying a schema
2015-05-05T14:24:48Z schjetne: Of course, this is no good if you don't want a fixed schema
2015-05-05T14:25:18Z schjetne: But I'm thinking of adding something like it to my Elasticsearch library, where they do in fact have static schema
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2015-05-05T14:32:44Z protist: cl-durian is now available on quicklisp https://github.com/GordianNaught/cl-durian
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2015-05-05T14:33:16Z protist: it produces indented HTML from simple list structures
2015-05-05T14:33:33Z Xach: No it isn't.
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2015-05-05T14:33:53Z Xach: Soon, though.
2015-05-05T14:33:58Z protist: Xach: ah I just used quicklisp to get it...so I thought I tested it?
2015-05-05T14:34:18Z protist: Xach: maybe I was in the directory :p
2015-05-05T14:34:27Z Xach: protist: If it's visible via asdf, you can use ql:quickload to load it.
2015-05-05T14:34:48Z Xach: But the archive is not on the quicklisp server and someone who tries to load it will not be able to.
2015-05-05T14:34:50Z protist: Xach: ah, makes sense :)
2015-05-05T14:35:06Z Xach: I am going to make a quicklisp update today, though, so it will be available after that.
2015-05-05T14:35:27Z protist: Xach: ok :)...thank you for the work you do with quicklisp
2015-05-05T14:35:38Z Petit_Dejeuner: Yeah, it's great.
2015-05-05T14:35:43Z jdz: schjetne: then there's json-schema (http://json-schema.org)
2015-05-05T14:35:47Z ehu: Xach: in that case: you read my mail regarding the latest cl-net CVS migrations, right?
2015-05-05T14:36:00Z Xach: ehu: I read it, yes, thanks.
2015-05-05T14:36:08Z ehu: ok. just checking.
2015-05-05T14:37:19Z schjetne: jdz: yes, I've seen that one
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2015-05-05T14:37:46Z jdz: ehu: while at it -- i've migrated my project to Git a long time ago (moved to GitHub), but on c-l.net it is still using CVS and is scheduled for the upcoming migration to Git.  Is it possible to migrate the project manually?
2015-05-05T14:38:05Z jdz: ehu: i mean, remove CVS and add Git repo?
2015-05-05T14:38:20Z schjetne: Might be useful to take a JSON-aware class and output its Schema in that format for use with other software components
2015-05-05T14:38:28Z ehu: jdz: yes. that's possible. did you receive a GitLab welcome mail?
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2015-05-05T14:38:35Z jdz: ehu: yes
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2015-05-05T14:39:06Z ehu: jdz: ok. then you can create a project in the imago group yourself and push the git repo there.
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2015-05-05T14:39:22Z ehu: that's weird .
2015-05-05T14:39:27Z ehu: no imago group?
2015-05-05T14:39:28Z ehu: ah.
2015-05-05T14:40:00Z ehu: there's a group, but no projects in it.
2015-05-05T14:40:17Z ehu: so, you could create an imago project which has room for 1 git repo.
2015-05-05T14:40:28Z ehu: you can then push your git repo into the imago repository.
2015-05-05T14:40:39Z ehu: archiving the CVS repo is something I can do for you.
2015-05-05T14:40:44Z jdz: ehu: well, my project is rfc2388, and it is somehow under xcvb
2015-05-05T14:40:51Z ehu: ah.
2015-05-05T14:41:02Z ehu: that's probably because xcvb created a copy.
2015-05-05T14:41:31Z ehu: ah. heh.
2015-05-05T14:41:35Z ehu: another djz.
2015-05-05T14:41:36Z ehu: soryr,
2015-05-05T14:41:39Z ehu: sorry.
2015-05-05T14:41:44Z ehu: same procedure though.
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2015-05-05T14:41:57Z ehu: you're a group owner in GitLab for the rfc2388 group.
2015-05-05T14:42:09Z ehu: which means you can create a new project in it.
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2015-05-05T14:42:19Z ehu: I'd call that rfc2388 too.
2015-05-05T14:42:29Z jdz: OK, thanks
2015-05-05T14:42:30Z ehu: and from there, you can simply upload the git repo.
2015-05-05T14:42:42Z ehu: I'll archive the CVS repo.
2015-05-05T14:42:51Z ehu: is that something I can do right now?
2015-05-05T14:43:56Z jdz: i can't seem to be able to log in with my common-lisp.net email (jdzerins)
2015-05-05T14:44:10Z jdz: i definitely was able to log in before
2015-05-05T14:44:17Z hlavaty: protist: why is "indented HTML" a good idea?  isn't whytespace significant in some tags?
2015-05-05T14:44:29Z hlavaty: whitespace
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2015-05-05T14:45:05Z Xach: it is.
2015-05-05T14:45:23Z Xach: (significant, that is. a good idea, possibly not.)
2015-05-05T14:46:33Z protist: hlavaty: which tags?...cl-durian doesn't add whitespace to the content of innermost tagged elements so I would suspect it shouldn't be a problem
2015-05-05T14:46:35Z ehu: jdz: you changed your e-mail address.
2015-05-05T14:46:37Z ecraven: you could put the indentation iside the tags, I think
2015-05-05T14:46:54Z jdz: ehu: oh, it's my own fault, then
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2015-05-05T14:49:07Z akkad hunts for any ecl standalone binary documentation that is does not 404
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2015-05-05T14:50:06Z hlavaty: protist: i dont think your rule is good enough; simply dont do that
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2015-05-05T14:52:11Z Xach: protist: (cl-durian:html '(html ((p "This is") (i "wild") "."))) produces whitespace between "wild" and "." in the browser.
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2015-05-05T14:52:25Z Xach: protist: What project do you use cl-durian for?
2015-05-05T14:52:37Z ehu: akkad: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl-doc/tree/master what you mean?
2015-05-05T14:52:53Z Xach: I don't really understand how this is meant to be used, actually.
2015-05-05T14:53:01Z protist: Xach: I was using it for a website I was developing a while ago
2015-05-05T14:53:07Z Xach: the examples aren't enough to make me understand.
2015-05-05T14:53:17Z akkad: ehu thanks
2015-05-05T14:53:18Z Xach: (also, i have not spent much time trying)
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2015-05-05T14:53:39Z Xach: protist: If I wanted output like "<p>This is <i>wild</i>!</p>", what is the list structure?
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2015-05-05T14:58:35Z protist: Xach: that is interesting....and yeah unanticipated......`(p (cl-durian:raw "This is<i>wild</i>!"))
2015-05-05T14:59:02Z protist: Xach: hmmm...but that is kind of cheating...
2015-05-05T15:00:59Z nyef: Heh. The use of cl-durian:raw reminds me, SO MUCH, of trying to do anything clever with S-SQL.
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2015-05-05T15:01:39Z Xach: protist: ok
2015-05-05T15:01:58Z Xach: protist: this seems like a fundamental oversight to me.
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2015-05-05T15:04:59Z Xach: The example in the README is invalid, too. P may not be a child of B.
2015-05-05T15:06:16Z protist: Xach: ah....was thinking body for some reason
2015-05-05T15:06:39Z protist: Xach: I'll change the example and think on if there is a clean way to avoid raw for when tags are within a string
2015-05-05T15:06:46Z protist: Xach: or just remove indentation
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2015-05-05T15:07:41Z dlowe: seems like wasted bytes for machine generated output
2015-05-05T15:08:00Z dlowe: the whole point of generating it is so you don't have to look at it
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2015-05-05T15:10:43Z protist: Xach: examples changed from `b' to `body'
2015-05-05T15:12:31Z protist: dlowe: it is extra bytes...I think of the point more that you don't write it than that you don't read it
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2015-05-05T15:14:44Z schjetne: Has anyone rigged up ASDF to build and install binaries? Using Make feels a bit crufty, especially when going all the way and specifying all the prerequisites in two places, both the .asd and the Makefile,
2015-05-05T15:14:53Z dlowe: A seamless abstraction would remove the necessity of thinking about it at all, reading or writing.
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2015-05-05T15:15:54Z protist: dlowe: sometimes you might want to ask another person about how your page is set up...they may not speak Lisp
2015-05-05T15:16:02Z protist: dlowe: but yeah, in general you don't read it
2015-05-05T15:16:12Z dlowe: an excellent time to introduce them
2015-05-05T15:16:18Z protist: dlowe: when I was working with another guy on a project, he wanted me to at least add newlines
2015-05-05T15:16:50Z protist: dlowe: he was more of an assembly guy :p...knew Javascript, though
2015-05-05T15:17:20Z dlowe: there are html formatters that will make it much prettier than manual inserts, in any case.
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2015-05-05T15:20:48Z protist: dlowe: true
2015-05-05T15:21:21Z schjetne: On second thought, I think a shell script calling Buildapp is as good as anything, part of the point of Make is that it's useful when developing to avoid having to recompile everything, but that's a non-issue with Lisp
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2015-05-05T15:23:19Z nyef: schjetne: Especially when ASDF and whatnot should already be trying to avoid recompiling everything.
2015-05-05T15:25:05Z axion: does there exist a native library for reading and writing gzip or some other common compression format?
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2015-05-05T15:26:18Z pjb: axion: and by native you mean?
2015-05-05T15:26:35Z axion: i mean not requiring external C libraries
2015-05-05T15:26:39Z axion: pure lisp
2015-05-05T15:26:45Z pjb: then write pure lisp.
2015-05-05T15:26:47Z nyef: deflate?
2015-05-05T15:27:05Z nyef: Hrm. That might go the other way.
2015-05-05T15:27:14Z Shinmera: schjetne: Funny you should talk about that. https://twitter.com/Shinmera/status/595607394987745281
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2015-05-05T15:28:07Z nyef: Shinmera: Not in the usual vein for asdf-related project names, but nice!
2015-05-05T15:28:11Z schjetne: Shinmera: nice. I've been thinking of looking into extending ASDF for some things myself, but I've been distracted by other things
2015-05-05T15:28:36Z pjb: (quick-apropos "ZIP") list 3 systems seemingly related to zip or gzip.
2015-05-05T15:28:37Z Shinmera: nyef: It doesn't follow the keyboard sequence because there's nothing that would include the "A" key.
2015-05-05T15:28:49Z Shinmera: ABCD is a good compromise imo
2015-05-05T15:28:55Z nyef: QAZ or WASD?
2015-05-05T15:29:09Z Shinmera: nyef: Yeah but then find me a good acronym.
2015-05-05T15:29:11Z schjetne: As for the Unixisms, I think I need to print out one of the cartoons from The Unix-Hater's Handbook to hang over my desk to remind myself it doesn't have to be that way ;)
2015-05-05T15:29:18Z axion: pjb: yes, it looks like i am going to have to try writing one as they all require CFFI or only support decompression
2015-05-05T15:29:24Z nyef: Or AOEU, if you want to be cute about it?
2015-05-05T15:29:25Z axion: unless i'm just not looking hard enough
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2015-05-05T15:31:16Z dlowe: My keyboard has arst on the home keys. The ASDF Refactored System Target?
2015-05-05T15:31:51Z nyef: dlowe: Colemak?
2015-05-05T15:31:55Z dlowe: yeah
2015-05-05T15:32:02Z nyef: There are also the AZERTY keyboards...
2015-05-05T15:33:02Z nyef: And then you get into layouts like MALTRON or JCUKEN, though the latter would be a bit iffy for a project name...
2015-05-05T15:33:04Z Xach: axion: salza2 produces gzip, deflate and chipz consume it
2015-05-05T15:33:16Z Xach: axion: they are all pure CL
2015-05-05T15:33:19Z axion: Xach: ah i looked at that and it mentioned no decompression
2015-05-05T15:33:34Z dlowe: I rather despise the four close-together letters naming scheme, though. Especially uiop.
2015-05-05T15:33:50Z Xach: they are all horrible names
2015-05-05T15:33:52Z dlowe: It's lazy and unattractive.
2015-05-05T15:33:59Z Xach: no sense of taste
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2015-05-05T15:34:07Z axion: Xach: does Salza2 decompress or not?
2015-05-05T15:34:18Z Xach: axion: it does not. deflate and chipz decompress.
2015-05-05T15:34:30Z axion: ok
2015-05-05T15:34:33Z Xach: i use deflate in quicklisp to unpack every archive.
2015-05-05T15:34:35Z nyef: axion: Oh, noes! You need TWO libraries to cover your use case!
2015-05-05T15:35:04Z dlowe: It does seem kind of silly.
2015-05-05T15:35:23Z Shinmera likes the ASDF and UIOP names.
2015-05-05T15:35:32Z Shinmera: So burn me on a cross, will you!
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2015-05-05T15:35:55Z dlowe: how about we just respectfully agree that your view is wrong.
2015-05-05T15:36:14Z ecraven: do you pronounce them letter by letter, or as one word?
2015-05-05T15:36:18Z Shinmera: An attractive proposition, but no
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2015-05-05T15:37:22Z Xach: I pronounce uiop as one word
2015-05-05T15:37:39Z Xach: I was surprised to find nobody i met at els shared that practice
2015-05-05T15:37:53Z Xach: My sample size was small, though
2015-05-05T15:38:03Z schjetne: The main problem with ASDF is that if you try to web search it, you get results that cater to the most bored of web users
2015-05-05T15:38:04Z Shinmera does the same as Xach actually. Too bad they didn't have much opportunity to talk
2015-05-05T15:38:12Z Xof: I don't think I have ever said "uiop" out loud
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2015-05-05T15:38:16Z Xof: shows how in touch I am :-(
2015-05-05T15:38:22Z Xach: Xof: a missed opportunity at ELS for sure
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2015-05-05T15:38:55Z Xof: Xach: I missed out on plenty at ELS
2015-05-05T15:39:02Z Xof: I did get to enjoy some of it!
2015-05-05T15:39:25Z Xof: also, the gift that keeps on giving (currently working on: videos.)
2015-05-05T15:39:42Z Xach: I hope you got a day or two to explore london, too
2015-05-05T15:40:02Z Xof: my other half didn't let me escape from childcare duties for that long!
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2015-05-05T15:44:26Z Xach ponders a conference in his own backyard
2015-05-05T15:47:39Z Petit_Dejeuner: bbq
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2015-05-05T16:00:39Z akkad: hmm lw hobby license for $500. bout time
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2015-05-05T16:02:23Z schjetne: kraison: Any news on VivaceGraph? I'm in the market for a graph database at the moment, I wish I could say for sure that I can take you up on your offer for a code tour and put in some work.
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2015-05-05T16:03:06Z schjetne: (I'd of course be thrilled to get a code tour, but I don't want to waste your time)
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2015-05-05T16:12:57Z Xach worked a bit on vivace last summer
2015-05-05T16:15:21Z schjetne: Xach: what do you think? How far along is it?
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2015-05-05T16:20:42Z akkad expected 7.0 to have more... no obvious difference in performance
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2015-05-05T16:28:05Z drmeister:  Is there anything wrong with this format statement?
2015-05-05T16:28:16Z drmeister: (format t "~A~V,,, '>A " "" 1 "")
2015-05-05T16:28:25Z drmeister: I see three arguments and just two directives   ~A and ~V   and when I run it under very difficult to achieve circumstances it fails because it runs out of arguments!
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2015-05-05T16:29:03Z drmeister: What does this FORMAT statement do?   I don't want to make a mistake in interpreting it because I'm trying to debug clasp internals.
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2015-05-05T16:30:51Z drmeister: What does ~V do?
2015-05-05T16:32:10Z drmeister: I can't find any description in the CLHS
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2015-05-05T16:33:02Z ferada: drmeister: it's in 22.3, formatted output
2015-05-05T16:33:07Z ecraven: only thing with V is Tilde Vertical-Bar, no Tilde V :-/
2015-05-05T16:33:42Z drmeister: ferada: Which one?   I've flipped through them all several times.
2015-05-05T16:33:49Z ferada: the top level
2015-05-05T16:34:11Z drmeister: Ah:  In place of a prefix parameter to a directive, V (or v) can be used.
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2015-05-05T16:36:40Z Shinmera: clhs ~v
2015-05-05T16:36:48Z Shinmera: Argh, specbot is still gone
2015-05-05T16:37:03Z Shinmera: Colleen: do clhs ~v
2015-05-05T16:37:04Z Colleen:  http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm
2015-05-05T16:37:38Z ecraven: not easy to spot :)
2015-05-05T16:37:48Z Xach: right, ~v is not the directive, ~A is, and the V is a placeholder for something taken from the arguments
2015-05-05T16:38:24Z drmeister: Oh g*d this is hard to interpret.
2015-05-05T16:38:56Z drmeister: So is ~V,,,'>A all one directive that takes the (list 1 "") and does something with it?
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2015-05-05T16:39:42Z drmeister: Because Clasp with tagged pointers is doing something wrong with it.
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2015-05-05T16:40:48Z Shinmera: It pads with > until the width is at least v, from what I understand.
2015-05-05T16:41:12Z Shinmera: It's the ~a directive with V for mincol and > for padchar.
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2015-05-05T16:41:53Z drmeister: So it's this:   ~mincol,colinc,minpad,padcharA
2015-05-05T16:41:55Z ecraven: so this should print ">"?
2015-05-05T16:42:50Z drmeister: Probably - it's screwing up the prompt and that kicks it into the debugger, which tries to print a prompt, which invokes the debugger ...
2015-05-05T16:42:55Z drmeister: I'm a bit frustrated.
2015-05-05T16:43:17Z Shinmera: try (format T "~v,,,'>a" 5 "a") vs (format T "~v,,,'>a" 5 "aaa")
2015-05-05T16:43:23Z Shinmera: It'll be clear what it does.
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2015-05-05T16:43:43Z drmeister: How does '>  denote the padchar?   Shouldn't it just be   >
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2015-05-05T16:43:55Z drmeister: The single quote - is that part of the padchar description?
2015-05-05T16:44:03Z Shinmera: No
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2015-05-05T16:44:14Z nyef: I know that the pad character has to be quited, but I don't know WHY.
2015-05-05T16:44:16Z Shinmera: the quote is FORMAT's way to indicate: The next thing is a literal character.
2015-05-05T16:44:37Z Shinmera: I've always found that to be an unfortunate choice.
2015-05-05T16:44:38Z nyef: Ah, to prevent it being interpreted as a directive?
2015-05-05T16:44:43Z Shinmera: Yes.
2015-05-05T16:44:48Z drmeister: Ok, so it tell FORMAT to treat the next character as a literal character - got it.
2015-05-05T16:44:49Z ecraven: why is there a space in front of the quote?
2015-05-05T16:44:52Z nyef: Okay, THAT makes a certain amount of sense.
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2015-05-05T16:45:57Z drmeister: There is no space in front of the single quote    "~A~V,,,'>A "
2015-05-05T16:46:05Z drmeister: I see now.
2015-05-05T16:46:41Z drmeister: The ~V tells it to take the 1 as mincol?
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2015-05-05T16:46:50Z Shinmera: no, just the V.
2015-05-05T16:46:59Z Shinmera: ~ is just indicating the start of a directive.
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2015-05-05T16:47:04Z ecraven: it's ~A with stuff inserted in between ~ and A
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2015-05-05T16:47:29Z Shinmera: See 22.3: In place of a prefix parameter to a directive, V (or v) can be used. In this case, format takes an argument from args as a parameter to the directive. The argument should be an integer or character. If the arg used by a V parameter is nil, the effect is as if the parameter had been omitted. # can be used in place of a prefix parameter; it represents the number of args remaining to be processed. When
2015-05-05T16:47:30Z Xach uses v in format directives from time to time, but has yet to use #
2015-05-05T16:47:31Z Shinmera: used within a recursive format, in the context of ~? or ~{, the # prefix parameter represents the number of format arguments remaining within the recursive call.
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2015-05-05T16:48:23Z Shinmera: Format tries real hard to do as much as possible, but things become so much like symbol soup that it's often not worth it.
2015-05-05T16:48:30Z ecraven: so many sub-languages inside lisp
2015-05-05T16:49:17Z Fade: format needs its own book.
2015-05-05T16:50:14Z Shinmera thinks about code-golf using FORMAT exclusively
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2015-05-05T16:53:00Z drmeister: Got it.
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2015-05-05T16:56:37Z Xach: schjetne: I found it pretty straightforward to use for simple things. If I remember correctly, it wasn't easy to change things after definition - no good support for active schema evolution. It worked ok in a situation where it was ok to occasionally dump things out and reload.
2015-05-05T16:56:58Z pjb: (quick-apropos "ZIP") list 3 systems seemingly related to zip or gzip.
2015-05-05T16:57:52Z Xach: schjetne: and raw performance was not a foremost development concern - getting things correct (not losing data) was primary
2015-05-05T16:58:27Z Xach: schjetne: even though i worked on it, i would choose postgres at the moment, because i am familiar with postgres and i like the maturity and features.
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2015-05-05T17:06:38Z nyef: Damned DSL gateway. I so much as LOOK at the routing table, and it reboots. /-:
2015-05-05T17:09:51Z nyef: Still, managed to get a route into it for another IP range, so now I can reconfigure things in order to use a DHCP server that I control for part of my localnet.
2015-05-05T17:10:17Z nyef: Which means being able to netboot some hardware while still allowing it to connect to the internet-at-large.
2015-05-05T17:10:26Z nyef: Progress!
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2015-05-05T18:07:08Z schjetne: Xach: Sounds like there is quite a lot of work left to do, then.
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2015-05-05T18:07:44Z schjetne: I wonder how Postgres would handle a 10M or so node digraph
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2015-05-05T18:08:11Z schjetne: I'm guessing it's not a great fit
2015-05-05T18:09:28Z schjetne: And all the graph logic would have to be maintained in-house
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2015-05-05T19:37:30Z myrk2: Why would an sbcl script terminate after (loop) ?
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2015-05-05T19:37:52Z myrk2: Concrete example, http://paste.lisp.org/+363P
2015-05-05T19:37:57Z myrk2: "END" is never printed.
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2015-05-05T19:39:13Z hitecnologys: myrk2: because it's never reached?
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2015-05-05T19:39:49Z myrk2: hitecnologys: yeah, that's the obvious part.  What's not obvious, to me, is the *why*
2015-05-05T19:39:53Z ehu: myrk2: because the loop never terminated, you can't tell if it does or not.
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2015-05-05T19:40:18Z Xach: myrk2: READE-LINE always returns a string, unless you provide extra options not to.
2015-05-05T19:40:21Z ehu: myrk2: will "line" ever contain a "false" value, is what you should ask yourself.
2015-05-05T19:40:22Z myrk2: ehu: so, how does the script terminate, if the loop doesn't?
2015-05-05T19:40:25Z Bike: myrk2: you didn't provide the errorp argument to read-line, so it defaults to t, i.e. on EOF it signals an error rather than returning nil as you apparently expetc.
2015-05-05T19:40:29Z ehu: it never will.
2015-05-05T19:40:36Z Xach: READ-LINE, rather
2015-05-05T19:40:52Z myrk2: But the script *does* terminate.
2015-05-05T19:41:01Z hitecnologys: Incorrectly.
2015-05-05T19:41:06Z myrk2: Fair enough.
2015-05-05T19:41:07Z ehu: ok. then it terminates in an error, like bike suggests
2015-05-05T19:41:09Z hitecnologys: Have you examined return code?
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2015-05-05T19:41:14Z myrk2: Nope, yet.
2015-05-05T19:41:21Z Bike: myrk2: --script implies --disable-debugger, so whenever an error is signal it dies with a nonzero error code.
2015-05-05T19:41:30Z myrk2: echo $? gives 0.
2015-05-05T19:41:30Z Bike: is signaled*
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2015-05-05T19:42:04Z Xach: myrk2: you can solve your problems by using (read-line *standard-input* nil) instead of (read-line)
2015-05-05T19:42:17Z Xach: myrk2: then read-line returns nil at eof
2015-05-05T19:42:42Z Xach: well, you can solve one problem. it's possible to encounter more.
2015-05-05T19:42:45Z myrk2: Right, thanks.  Will try it.
2015-05-05T19:42:54Z Bike: hm, i get status zero too. how weird.
2015-05-05T19:43:13Z hitecnologys: Zero here as well.
2015-05-05T19:43:21Z myrk2: Is that a bug in sbcl?
2015-05-05T19:43:27Z hitecnologys: Can't be.
2015-05-05T19:44:00Z hitecnologys: Or it must be relatively new.
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2015-05-05T19:47:11Z jackdaniel: "server is *in* the internet", or "server is *on* the internet"?
2015-05-05T19:47:25Z myrk2: On, to me.
2015-05-05T19:47:39Z jackdaniel: thanks (sorry for offtopic)
2015-05-05T19:48:05Z hitecnologys: The Internet!
2015-05-05T19:48:15Z jackdaniel: :-)
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2015-05-05T21:32:03Z Xach: Hmm. I wonder if a self-extracting gzipped lisp file would be fun.
2015-05-05T21:32:24Z Xach: or if the extraction and deflate code would be so big & slow as to defeat the purpose
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2015-05-05T21:34:34Z pjb: Xach: there are means to compact lisp code.
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2015-05-05T21:38:57Z ferada: with cffi, are people using defctype to get around the "bare references" warning or rather change every location to use (:struct foo) instead?
2015-05-05T21:40:14Z dim: schjetne: there's WITH RECURSIVE to process a graph in SQL, but with 10M nodes I don't know how that would perform. Then you can also provide your own data type (c code) to PostgreSQL at run-time with indexing support and all the jazz, if needs be
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2015-05-05T21:47:55Z LiamH: ferada: I'm not sure defctype would work correctly.
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2015-05-05T21:48:59Z LiamH: mem-aref has different behavior between (:struct foo) and  foo (compatibility).
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2015-05-05T21:49:50Z ferada: LiamH: ah that is good to know, because i didn't come across that case, i.e. "for me it worked"; thanks
2015-05-05T21:50:20Z LiamH: ferada: yeah, I was going to say it may not affect you, so go ahead.
2015-05-05T21:50:52Z schjetne: dim: part of the goal is to stay in Common Lisp as much as possible. I'd rather not have to resort to anything proprietary, like AllegroGraph, whose client will only work with ACL, adding even more to the cost.
2015-05-05T21:50:55Z eudoxia: i use (:struct <type>) because otherwise it throws a warning ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2015-05-05T21:51:07Z LiamH: Basically, uses of mem-aref needs to become mem-aptr.
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2015-05-05T21:55:04Z schjetne: One option is OrientDB, which uses SQL, meaning a lot of the existing SQL infrastructure might be re-used writing a client library for it
2015-05-05T21:55:19Z ferada: right, now i have double check some changes, but it's probably okay
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2015-05-05T22:46:09Z briga: ciaoa tutti
2015-05-05T22:46:12Z briga: !list
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2015-05-05T22:46:32Z briga: come si fa ad avere la lista?
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2015-05-05T22:48:54Z akkad: print?
2015-05-05T22:49:11Z akkad: ,clhs list
2015-05-05T22:49:26Z akkad: non supeva que fossi italiano
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2015-05-05T22:55:42Z akkad: ahh, have join/parts ignored in erc
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2015-05-05T23:12:24Z jasom: akkad: the IRC client I use has a "ingore join/parts unless the person has spoken recently" option; I don't know if ERC has the same
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2015-05-05T23:36:39Z pillton: jasom: ERC does. C-h v erc-track-exclude-types
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2015-05-06T00:02:14Z myrk2: Is there a better option than sb-ext:run-program to run a subprocess, when I want to read its standard output?
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2015-05-06T00:04:39Z pillton: What is wrong with that method first?
2015-05-06T00:04:48Z jasom: myrk2: uiop:run-program is a portable wrapper if that's what you're asking
2015-05-06T00:04:57Z myrk2: Nothing, just wondering if it should be my first choice or not.
2015-05-06T00:05:13Z myrk2: jasom: thanks, I don't need portability right now.
2015-05-06T00:05:35Z myrk2: It seems simple enough to use, so I'll try it.
2015-05-06T00:05:56Z akkad: (load-all-patches) (save-image "~/lw-console" :console t :environment nil :multiprocessing t) ;; fixed it. no more gui
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2015-05-06T00:18:07Z clop2: myrk2: you might try the shellpool library
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2015-05-06T00:29:34Z myrk2: clop2: hmm, maybe I'll take a look, thanks.
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2015-05-06T01:02:58Z clop2: I'm trying to "asdf'ify" the tests for my quicklisp library, to turn them into just a mylib-test system that can be quickloaded.  Is there a way to, uh, "chdir" into mylib/test when quicklisp loads the mylib-test library?  Or at least to learn the directory where the source files live, so I can load related resources?
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2015-05-06T01:34:22Z akkad: is there an accessor function for returning the full name of a file from a file object?
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2015-05-06T01:35:35Z akkad: describe shows it as a structure with slots https://gist.github.com/dc9c56acca8e9e137295
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2015-05-06T01:39:53Z edgar-rft: maybe (namestring #P"/home/akkad/...") is what you're looking for?
2015-05-06T01:40:47Z edgar-rft: where #P"..." is a pathname object, what must not necessarily be a file.
2015-05-06T01:41:40Z akkad: clhs to the rescue
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2015-05-06T01:44:32Z akkad: edgar-rft: yeah, thanks. format handled it, sqlite did not :P
2015-05-06T01:44:44Z akkad: emacs dislikes clhs.org
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2015-05-06T03:16:33Z nyef: Hello beach.
2015-05-06T03:16:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-05-06T03:21:18Z drmeister: Hi beach
2015-05-06T03:23:34Z pillton: G'day beach.
2015-05-06T03:24:15Z drmeister: beach: I've been looking into ECL's subtypep and type inference - I found this:
2015-05-06T03:24:16Z drmeister: http://t17598.lisp-ecl-general.lisptalk.us/type-inference-t17598.html
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2015-05-06T03:25:14Z drmeister: tl;dr:  Juanjo felt that ECL's subtypep was better than most.
2015-05-06T03:25:19Z drmeister: For what it's worth.
2015-05-06T03:25:49Z beach: Great!
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2015-05-06T03:29:43Z drmeister: ASDF and Slime now work with clasp using tagged pointers and I'm preparing to switch to immediate FIXNUMs and SHORT-FLOATs
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2015-05-06T03:31:07Z beach: Congratulations!
2015-05-06T03:35:54Z myrk2: Is there an append-to-string operation, similar to read-sequence, when the string in question was made with (make-string 2048) ?
2015-05-06T03:36:23Z myrk2: It turns out I don't want to slurp the whole thing, but read it line-by-line and terminate at a trigger.
2015-05-06T03:36:42Z pillton: clhs concatenate
2015-05-06T03:36:49Z Bicyclidine: I'm having trouble reconciling a similarity between read-sequence and append
2015-05-06T03:37:17Z H4ns: myrk2: are you looking for with-input-from-string?
2015-05-06T03:37:33Z beach: Colleen: do clhs with-output-to-string
2015-05-06T03:37:33Z Colleen: Macro WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_out_.htm
2015-05-06T03:37:37Z myrk2: No, I'm taking a process output (stream) and putting it into a string.
2015-05-06T03:37:58Z H4ns: beach got teh psychic reading skills
2015-05-06T03:38:18Z beach: Exceptionally.
2015-05-06T03:38:25Z myrk2: Colleen: thank you.
2015-05-06T03:38:26Z Colleen: "Thank you" is a common expression of gratitude. It often refers to a thank you letter, a letter written to express appreciation. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thank_You>
2015-05-06T03:39:20Z pillton: Is Colleen the new specbot?
2015-05-06T03:39:39Z beach: Colleen: are you a bot?
2015-05-06T03:39:40Z Colleen: Sheep (Ovis aries) are quadrupedal, ruminant mammals typically kept as livestock. Like all ruminants, sheep are members of the order Artiodactyla, the even-toed ungulates. Although the name "sheep" ap... <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheep>
2015-05-06T03:40:07Z Bicyclidine: myrk2: read-sequence should let you do that?
2015-05-06T03:40:07Z ChibaPet: Mmmm, ungulates.
2015-05-06T03:40:20Z Bicyclidine: colleen is a bot, run i believe by shinmera
2015-05-06T03:40:29Z beach: Indeed.
2015-05-06T03:40:54Z pillton: Was specbot was run by stassats?
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2015-05-06T03:41:21Z pillton: Sorry, was specbot run by stassats?
2015-05-06T03:41:41Z beach: I think so, yes.
2015-05-06T03:41:48Z beach: I think it's just a temporary problem.
2015-05-06T03:42:09Z nyef: Might just need the process restarting, or a reconnect command issued to its console.
2015-05-06T03:42:09Z pillton: Oh ok. I haven't seen stassats on here for ages.
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2015-05-06T03:42:36Z beach: He vowed to stay out I think.
2015-05-06T03:42:40Z nyef: Last message I see from stassats is... about 105 minutes old.
2015-05-06T03:42:58Z nyef: And then he had a ping timeout.
2015-05-06T03:43:09Z pillton: nyef: In #lisp or #sbcl?
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2015-05-06T03:43:21Z nyef: In #sbcl.
2015-05-06T03:44:23Z axion: hello
2015-05-06T03:44:43Z beach: Hello axion.
2015-05-06T03:44:51Z axion: If anyone could help, I need some advice for rewriting the ugliest function I think I've ever written, using some loop construct preferably
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2015-05-06T03:45:29Z axion: http://paste.lisp.org/display/147886
2015-05-06T03:46:24Z pillton: axion: Ah math and state.
2015-05-06T03:46:55Z Bicyclidine: vec constructs a 3-vector, m## are bound by %with-matrix?
2015-05-06T03:47:25Z axion: m## are just symbols generated referring to array indexes of a matrix
2015-05-06T03:47:37Z axion: and yes vec is a array single-float (3)
2015-05-06T03:48:56Z Bicyclidine: i don't really see a good way to shorten this.
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2015-05-06T03:49:28Z Bicyclidine: well, i guess you could avoid binding -normal and -dir.
2015-05-06T03:50:26Z axion: hmm
2015-05-06T03:51:01Z beach: drmeister: I am rewriting the chapter on bootstrapping in the SICL specification.  As it turns out, I haven't revisited bootstrapping since I invented first-class global environments, so that chapter still talks about different package names.
2015-05-06T03:51:46Z Bicyclidine: You could have two vectors, one for vadds and one for vsubs, and do (map 'vector #'vnorm ...) (map 'vector (lambda (v) (/ (+ m33 m30) (vlen v))) ...) and so on, but i dunno
2015-05-06T03:51:50Z drmeister: Yes, from what I understand now things will change a lot.
2015-05-06T03:52:26Z beach: drmeister: Right.  It will be much simpler and much "cleaner".
2015-05-06T03:52:38Z nyef: (macrolet ((plane-normal (plane-name) `(vnorm ,plane-name)) (plane-dir (plane-name ???) `(/ (+ m33 ,???) (vlen ,plane-name))) (values (vector (plane-normal left) ...) (vector (plane-dir left) ...))) ?
2015-05-06T03:52:39Z pillton: axion: Stuff like this is hard. You also have to think of yourself in 6 months time.
2015-05-06T03:52:56Z axion: Bicyclidine: I was thinking of getting rid of the m## and doing some loop which calculates the correct indices
2015-05-06T03:53:08Z axion: I mean there IS a pattern
2015-05-06T03:53:16Z axion: But I just can't seem to do it
2015-05-06T03:53:19Z nyef: Err... (plane-dir left m30), sorry... And, ugh, missed the operation sign.
2015-05-06T03:54:13Z nyef: axion: For your consideration: https://common-lisp.net/~abridgewater/lisp-tex-test-2.png
2015-05-06T03:54:54Z pillton: nyef: Awesome.
2015-05-06T03:55:01Z axion: cool
2015-05-06T03:55:44Z nyef: The lisp side of that would have been a $ reader-macro.
2015-05-06T03:55:55Z nyef: And, quite plausibly, a lot of supporting functions and macros.
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2015-05-06T03:56:23Z axion: I wrote a rather comprehensive matrix transformation library
2015-05-06T03:56:34Z nyef: But I had no idea (and still don't) how to get the emacs side to work, so I didn't bother implementing the lisp-side magic.
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2015-05-06T03:58:53Z axion: sigh i just realized that i named them -dir when they are distances not directions :/
2015-05-06T03:59:07Z nyef: So, they're scalar magnitudes
2015-05-06T03:59:08Z nyef: ?
2015-05-06T03:59:34Z axion: nyef: the relevant description/C code is here http://ruh.li/CameraViewFrustum.html
2015-05-06T03:59:54Z nyef: Actually, wait, no. It's midnight, and I'm fairly sure that I have to work tomorrow.
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2015-05-06T04:29:21Z isaac_rks: is common lisp dead?
2015-05-06T04:32:49Z ChibaPet: isaac_rks: no
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2015-05-06T04:46:34Z beach: isaac_rks: https://common-lisp.net
2015-05-06T04:47:07Z beach: isaac_rks: Notice the dates given on that site.
2015-05-06T04:48:09Z isaac_rks: common lisp suffers from ingrained sexist attitudes
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2015-05-06T04:49:16Z ChibaPet: When I'm bored, I play a game - competitive is better. A game where I can accrue rank is best.
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2015-05-06T04:51:55Z Zhivago: I know a good game like that.
2015-05-06T04:52:39Z Zhivago: You play by seeing how long you can go for without writing anything on irc. Rank is determined by the maximum number of minutes you can do it for.
2015-05-06T04:52:52Z ChibaPet: Oh, I've played that one. Good call.
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2015-05-06T05:27:01Z kami: Good morning
2015-05-06T05:27:21Z pillton: Morning!
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2015-05-06T05:38:58Z loke: Zhivago: idlerpg, right?
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2015-05-06T05:46:58Z theos: © 2014, The Common Lisp Foundation. Last modified: 2015.05.05
2015-05-06T05:47:15Z theos: someone forgot to change the copyright year :P
2015-05-06T05:47:36Z ehu: theos: or the page did not change.
2015-05-06T05:47:46Z ehu: but probably you're right.
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2015-05-06T05:47:55Z ehu: theos: all pages, I guess?
2015-05-06T05:47:59Z theos: ehu its on the front page
2015-05-06T05:48:21Z ehu: hmm. that was updated.
2015-05-06T05:48:51Z ehu: (content wise I mean)
2015-05-06T05:49:24Z theos: so there is no copyright in 2015 legally
2015-05-06T05:49:39Z Zhivago: Evidence of time-travel.
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2015-05-06T05:50:14Z beach: theos: Copyright is automatic.
2015-05-06T05:50:26Z Zhivago: You should never update those years.
2015-05-06T05:50:30Z Zhivago: That's the starting date, not the end-date.
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2015-05-06T05:50:52Z Zhivago: If you changed it to 2015, you would assert that you do not claim the copyright from 2014.
2015-05-06T05:51:14Z theos: copyright should have a starting and an end
2015-05-06T05:51:25Z ehu: theos: huh?
2015-05-06T05:51:38Z theos: 2014-2015
2015-05-06T05:52:02Z ehu: theos: if I distribute a program in 2014, I'm the copyright holder for a loooong time.
2015-05-06T05:52:04Z H4ns: theos: because otherwise, precisely what would happen?
2015-05-06T05:52:17Z ehu: the program will never show 2015, because it's not recompiled.
2015-05-06T05:52:20Z H4ns: ehu: maybe you want to remove the copyright notice, as it seems to offend some people.
2015-05-06T05:52:40Z ehu: H4ns: That's an idea.
2015-05-06T05:52:50Z theos: H4ns its more of a funny thing
2015-05-06T05:52:55Z H4ns: haha loool
2015-05-06T05:53:03Z Zhivago: theos: No, it really should not.
2015-05-06T05:53:14Z Zhivago: theos: It has a date of assertion, the duration is volatile.
2015-05-06T05:53:31Z Zhivago: (unless you want to stop asserting copyright, I guess)
2015-05-06T05:54:26Z beach: If you add new material, you might want to add a copyright date for that, but it is not required.
2015-05-06T05:55:06Z ehu: I added 2015, but since it's not listing which items relate to 2015, it's really dubious as to what the 2015 actually means.
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2015-05-06T05:56:04Z theos: Zhivago i was just having fun. there is no need for copyright on that site (mostly)
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2015-05-06T05:57:01Z Zhivago: There never is, until there is.
2015-05-06T05:57:07Z myrk2: I like copyright years to be recent, it means someone (or something) update it recently.
2015-05-06T05:57:50Z Zhivago: No, it doesn't. :)
2015-05-06T05:57:51Z myrk2: So legal reasons aside, they do have a purpose.
2015-05-06T05:58:14Z myrk2: Zhivago: copyright years are rarely seen in the future.
2015-05-06T05:58:15Z ehu: myrk2: there's php code which will happily do that for you.
2015-05-06T05:58:25Z theos: ehu the copyright stays forever. upto 50 years after the author dies. choosing 2014 is ok. if the page/site was created before 2014, you should change it to that year
2015-05-06T05:58:30Z ehu: (insert the latest year upon sending the page)
2015-05-06T05:58:43Z myrk2: ehu: there's <insert language> code that'll happily do it for me, yes I know.
2015-05-06T05:58:59Z ehu: theos: the site has been released in its current form in 2014.
2015-05-06T05:59:12Z theos: so 2014 is most apt
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2015-05-06T06:00:02Z Zhivago: myrk2: If you are updating them, then you're retroactively deasserting your copyright from earlier.
2015-05-06T06:00:09Z theos: ^^
2015-05-06T06:00:15Z Zhivago: I guess you could write out (c) 2014, 2015, 2016, ...
2015-05-06T06:00:19Z myrk2: Zhivago: copyright doesn't work that way, according to the berne convention.
2015-05-06T06:00:49Z theos: copyright works till some wealthy company tries to steal your work
2015-05-06T06:01:08Z myrk2: But pre-berne convention US copyright laws (which have never applied to me, personally) muddle the waters.
2015-05-06T06:01:12Z ehu: copyright works for the editors, not for the authors.
2015-05-06T06:01:25Z ehu: but that doesn't matter; we're stuck with it.
2015-05-06T06:01:33Z myrk2: c;
2015-05-06T06:01:34Z ehu: Zhivago: I've now added 2015 the way you give the exmple.
2015-05-06T06:02:00Z ehu: anyway, I have to leave for work. ttyl.
2015-05-06T06:02:12Z theos: bye
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2015-05-06T06:02:50Z myrk2: Maybe I should start to Copyright 2039 all my works c;
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2015-05-06T07:22:56Z kami: Is there a way of terminating a loop after a certain number of elements where collected?
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2015-05-06T07:23:22Z Zhivago: return, iirc.
2015-05-06T07:23:54Z myrk2: when ... return ... ; maybe.
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2015-05-06T07:25:32Z kami: I thought return is executed unconditionally in loop
2015-05-06T07:25:36Z kami: thanks, I'll try
2015-05-06T07:26:11Z myrk2: I've used a conditional return, with "return it"
2015-05-06T07:26:20Z myrk2: Don't remember the details right now.
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2015-05-06T07:46:30Z Cymew: I feel I need to suggest trying DO if you've spent more than 15 minutes trying to get the cogs and wheels of LOOP to click together. It's my OCD, so feel free to ignore.
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2015-05-06T08:04:03Z jackdani1l: (incf 'do)
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2015-05-06T08:04:22Z Shinmera: (decf 'do)
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2015-05-06T08:54:28Z Cymew: :)
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2015-05-06T08:58:29Z protist: Xach: I thought of a clean way to fix the issue of tagged elements within strings :)
2015-05-06T08:58:39Z protist: Xach: I'm going to make a change soon I think
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2015-05-06T08:59:53Z protist: Xach: after I do then doing something like <p>st<i>i</i>ng</p> would be `(p ("st" (i "i") "ng"))
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2015-05-06T09:00:30Z protist: XachX: I'll just prevent strings in the first position as tags....if someone wants to control the case of a tag, they will have to use |tHiS|
2015-05-06T09:00:35Z jackdaniel: small butlast with reminder utility: http://paste.lisp.org/display/147895 (RFC)
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2015-05-06T09:00:44Z Bike: why not (p "st" (i "i") "ng")?
2015-05-06T09:01:08Z protist: Bike: I use the length of the list to decide if the second element is attributes
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2015-05-06T09:01:38Z protist: Bike: (p ((attribute1 "1")(attribute2 "2")) text)
2015-05-06T09:02:06Z protist: Bike: that is what attributes look like...so if the list is length 3, then I know the second element is for attributes
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2015-05-06T09:02:19Z Shinmera: Why not just ((a :href "bla") "sttub") Simple and unambiguous.
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2015-05-06T09:03:07Z protist: Shinmera: unambiguous both ways...but I guess it is a taste thing
2015-05-06T09:03:29Z protist: Shinmera: I like the attributes to mirror the `let' syntax...good visually (in my opinion)
2015-05-06T09:03:48Z protist: Shinmera: ah there is another reason
2015-05-06T09:04:08Z protist: Shinmera: your way would be ambiguous with the way cl-durian handles things
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2015-05-06T09:04:20Z protist: Shinmera: not to say you couldn't have a system that works differently
2015-05-06T09:05:56Z protist: Shinmera: because if you did `(tag ((a :href "bla") "sttub"))....cl-durian would assume from the nested lists that (a :href "blah") would not just be a tag description, but a tag with contents to recur on
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2015-05-06T09:28:15Z loke: What is cl-durian?
2015-05-06T09:28:26Z loke: Durian is, as everybody should know, a very tasty fruit.
2015-05-06T09:29:05Z protist: loke: it is an html generator :)
2015-05-06T09:29:20Z protist: loke: couldn't decide on a name, and had tried durian for the first time that day
2015-05-06T09:29:48Z theos: you either love it or hate it
2015-05-06T09:29:57Z loke: protist: You liked it?
2015-05-06T09:30:01Z protist: theos: I liked it :)
2015-05-06T09:30:05Z loke: Yay!
2015-05-06T09:30:09Z protist: theos: I had dried durian treats, though :p
2015-05-06T09:30:20Z theos: protist oh :D try the fresh fruit
2015-05-06T09:30:20Z loke: protist: Where did you try it?
2015-05-06T09:30:56Z protist: theos: I plan to sometime :)
2015-05-06T09:31:02Z protist: loke: I bought it at the asian market
2015-05-06T09:31:12Z loke: protist: But not the fresh one?
2015-05-06T09:31:17Z protist: loke: I go there and ask the guy at the counter to tell me something new to try every time :)
2015-05-06T09:31:35Z loke: protist: Oh, you're in nz
2015-05-06T09:31:38Z loke: ?
2015-05-06T09:31:49Z protist: loke: yeah, I'm from America, though
2015-05-06T09:31:57Z protist: loke: you did /whois ?
2015-05-06T09:32:05Z loke: Yeah
2015-05-06T09:32:08Z protist: loke: :p
2015-05-06T09:32:27Z loke: protist: What part of america? Canada? Brazil?
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2015-05-06T09:32:36Z protist: loke: /the/ America ;)
2015-05-06T09:32:42Z protist: loke: that should answer it haha
2015-05-06T09:32:53Z loke: Murcia? :-)
2015-05-06T09:32:57Z protist: loke: yessir
2015-05-06T09:33:47Z protist: hmmm....so I have made a version of my html generator that can handle the cases I couldn't before, but I forfeited indentation in pursuit of correctness
2015-05-06T09:34:32Z protist: I suppose I will update the docs to get rid of all mention of indentation....and take the indentation out of the examples...and ellaborate on the new features...and push the changes
2015-05-06T09:34:34Z protist: :/
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2015-05-06T09:59:51Z protist: Shinmera: Xach: cl-durian no longer indents, but handles the problem cases it had before
2015-05-06T10:00:11Z protist: loke: theos: the library named after the fruit → https://github.com/GordianNaught/cl-durian
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2015-05-06T11:00:36Z theos: :)
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2015-05-06T11:31:40Z axion: link doesnt work because all of github is down :/
2015-05-06T11:33:43Z nyef: ... Github is down?
2015-05-06T11:33:47Z zacts: eek! yeah github is down for me too
2015-05-06T11:33:51Z zacts: this sucks
2015-05-06T11:34:23Z ecraven: contact them, as the page says!
2015-05-06T11:34:26Z nyef: Some part of me is saying "may it be down all day", largely because it would inconvenience my github-using co-workers.
2015-05-06T11:34:26Z zacts: hrm... https://status.github.com/
2015-05-06T11:34:39Z zacts: I like gitlab
2015-05-06T11:34:41Z Xach: gee, thanks
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2015-05-06T11:34:51Z zacts: but github has its charm
2015-05-06T11:35:17Z zacts: Xach: my PCL book has your nick on the front of it quoted
2015-05-06T11:35:22Z zacts: "That book is dead sexy!"
2015-05-06T11:35:31Z Xach: zacts: i get $0.003 for every copy sold!
2015-05-06T11:35:34Z zacts: hehe
2015-05-06T11:35:41Z zacts: I got a physical copy actually
2015-05-06T11:35:43Z nyef: minion: that-dead-sexy-book?
2015-05-06T11:35:44Z minion: that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2015-05-06T11:35:54Z zacts: I much prefer physical paper books over ebooks
2015-05-06T11:35:56Z Xach: i wish. then i would have over two dollars
2015-05-06T11:36:11Z axion: well its like 4:30am in their HQ city
2015-05-06T11:36:16Z axion: let them wake up
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2015-05-06T11:37:13Z Zhivago: I'm come to much prefer reading books on my telephone.
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2015-05-06T11:38:05Z zacts: Zhivago: I guess one of my problems with ebooks is that I have distractions of irc / emacs / vim / web browsing / etc... and I don't really focus on what I'm reading enough
2015-05-06T11:38:18Z zacts: I end up getting nothing done
2015-05-06T11:38:24Z axion: i could say the same thing about IRC
2015-05-06T11:38:33Z zacts: axion: um... I said irc
2015-05-06T11:38:48Z axion: and I'm emphasizing that option
2015-05-06T11:38:56Z zacts: ah yeah :-D
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2015-05-06T11:39:53Z decent: dead tree is "good".. :)
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2015-05-06T11:47:47Z Cymew: "We're doing emergency maintenance to recover the site" oops
2015-05-06T11:48:27Z axion: it's funny watching all the channels i'm in at the panic
2015-05-06T11:48:48Z axion: isnt that what git solves best? decentralization?
2015-05-06T11:48:56Z Cymew: Reminds me I really should get a physical copy of PCL. I've even gotten around to get AMOP so now I have no excuse.
2015-05-06T11:49:36Z Cymew: I guess I wont push any code this afternoon
2015-05-06T11:49:40Z Xach: I sent my copy of PCL to someone a long time ago to thank them for some help
2015-05-06T11:49:54Z Xach: I recently bought another copy from ebay for under $20. It's in great shape.
2015-05-06T11:51:51Z Cymew: $33.39 for a new hardcover on Amazon. Surprisingly cheap.
2015-05-06T11:52:58Z Cymew: OTOH I just got "Land of Lisp" back from a co worker and felt it would be fun to plow through that one again.
2015-05-06T11:53:10Z Xach: that's decent
2015-05-06T11:53:57Z axion: and we're back
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2015-05-06T11:58:43Z Shinmera lent his copy of PCL to a friend in hopes he'll finally be convinced to take the time and start on CL.
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2015-05-06T13:07:51Z jackdaniel: if I have lexically scoped variable shared between a few functions, like (let (x) (defun a () ...) (defun b () ...)) ; should I name it x, or rather *x* ?
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2015-05-06T13:12:40Z ggole: x. Earmuffs should indicate a dynamically scoped variable.
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2015-05-06T13:13:08Z ggole: If you want to clearly indicate the shared nature of the variable, that might be a good idea - shared-x, perhaps.
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2015-05-06T13:13:23Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2015-05-06T13:41:42Z Cymew: Less fun part of getting PCL in hardcopy: USD 24.95 shipping. :(
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2015-05-06T13:51:13Z pjb: akkad: there are no file objects in CL.
2015-05-06T13:51:35Z Zhivago: Which is perhaps unfortunate.
2015-05-06T13:51:38Z pjb: akkad: notice: open: pathname-descriptor -> stream
2015-05-06T13:51:49Z pjb: Zhivago: I'd agree.
2015-05-06T13:53:07Z pjb: But then, there are very few languages where files are reified.  AFAIK, only some OO libraries have them.
2015-05-06T13:56:45Z Zhivago: They're reified in python.
2015-05-06T13:57:04Z Zhivago: javascript just doesn't have files or streams, so the problem doesn't occur. :)
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2015-05-06T14:00:44Z pjb: One problem is that the file system can be mutated in parallel to the internal representation (object graph).
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2015-05-06T14:01:33Z pjb: Basically, when you have a file object, you need to add one link (and the best way to do that is to open it).
2015-05-06T14:02:08Z pjb: So it's rather can-of-wormy.
2015-05-06T14:02:33Z Zhivago: The same applies to sockets, etc.
2015-05-06T14:03:34Z pjb: (directory "*") --> a list of objects each with its open fd…
2015-05-06T14:03:53Z pjb: "**/*"
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2015-05-06T14:13:18Z pjb: On the other hand, on a system with a unique addressing space, with a unified memory model (no explicit I/O) and with automatic persistance, then the file objects would be the true files, and there would be no problem.
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2015-05-06T14:18:36Z flip214: pjb: don't talk to my colleague about that, he's still hanging in the mainframe time slot...
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2015-05-06T14:20:48Z Walex: pjb: echoes of System 38 :-)
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2015-05-06T14:21:53Z Walex: pjb: or reference to MIT TR-102 IIRC, Peter Bishops' "Very Large Address Spaces and distributed garbage collection".
2015-05-06T14:22:56Z Walex: http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/41992
2015-05-06T14:24:51Z nyef: Walex: Thanks for the link, the abstract at least sounds interesting.
2015-05-06T14:26:15Z Walex: nyef: it is one of the most important papers in the history of computing and like several other almost entirely forgotten.
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2015-05-06T14:28:21Z nyef: Well, it's on my to-read-soon queue now. Might even get to it today.
2015-05-06T14:28:36Z nyef: (Meanwhile, I need to get back to work.)
2015-05-06T14:29:30Z Walex: another long forgotten paper is the series of Henry Baker papers on binding, e.g. http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ShallowBinding.html
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2015-05-06T14:31:18Z Zhivago: Largely because it's pretty obvious in hindsight.
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2015-05-06T14:36:54Z p_l: unified disk/memory address space these days is afaik mostly IBM "not-quite-mainframe" area ;)
2015-05-06T14:38:55Z Walex: Zhivago: what???????
2015-05-06T14:39:08Z nyef: p_l: At the system level, maybe, but if you have a program that simply mmap()s a large file to use as memory space you have a pretty close simulation.
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2015-05-06T14:39:49Z p_l: nyef: they use 128bit address space afaik precisely to have it across the whole of the machine
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2015-05-06T15:19:33Z oleo: hello :)
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2015-05-06T15:28:06Z Shinmera: Who needs a special defclass macro when you have paredit and multiple-cursors? https://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TlRneg==
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2015-05-06T15:30:57Z failproofshark: to anyone here that has used cl-dbi and or datafly, has anyone ever recieved a mysql server has goone away error? from my understanding it usually occurs when a query is sent to a closed server connection. From looking at the code connect-cached supposedly pings the server before connecting but it doesnt seem to bother to reconnect before it sends the query (line 38 https://github.com/fukamachi/datafly/blob/e1c5a78759701e40d425e2101d9c5a105cb
2015-05-06T15:31:48Z failproofshark: this seems to happen after 24 hours post deployment
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2015-05-06T15:32:13Z axion: have you considered using something worthwhile, like postgresql?
2015-05-06T15:34:07Z Xach: axion: It would suffice to say you have no experience in that particular area, or even better, say nothing.
2015-05-06T15:34:23Z eudoxia: so what even is datafly
2015-05-06T15:34:25Z axion: You're right. I gave up on mysql about 10 years ago
2015-05-06T15:34:29Z eudoxia: is it like a lightweight orm or something
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2015-05-06T15:34:59Z failproofshark: eudoxia: it's sort of a wrapper around cl-dbi to execute sql statements
2015-05-06T15:35:12Z failproofshark: form my understanding anyhow
2015-05-06T15:35:16Z Shinmera: cliki yields nothing and google results in a domain company :/
2015-05-06T15:35:36Z Xach: https://github.com/fukamachi/datafly has some info.
2015-05-06T15:36:10Z Shinmera: Xach: Yeah, I was hoping to find projects that use it.
2015-05-06T15:36:16Z Shinmera: Or articles on it.
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2015-05-06T15:37:12Z failproofshark: one thing i've tried to do is change the with-connection statement to simply connect to the database once and disconnect after the sql statement has executed but that didnt seem to work https://gist.github.com/bogosortist/29df0a3f08b180c08139
2015-05-06T15:37:36Z failproofshark: i apologize in advance for asking a question with little context :/
2015-05-06T15:38:39Z Xach: failproofshark: No problem, it just seems like nobody here can help much. Maybe an issue on the repo would get better results?
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2015-05-06T15:39:33Z failproofshark: thank you. yes i shall open an issue on the repo
2015-05-06T15:40:05Z eudoxia: raising a public issue is often better than private bugfixing on IRC or emailing the author since other users with the same problem can search for and read the issue
2015-05-06T15:40:16Z Shinmera: failproofshark: Can you see the logs of the mysql server? That might point you in a direction of what's going on on the server side
2015-05-06T15:40:29Z failproofshark: Shinmera: ill look into that
2015-05-06T15:40:41Z Shinmera: IIRC "server has gone away" might indicate a server-side error that busted your query and then just closed the connection.
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2015-05-06T15:41:06Z failproofshark: eudoxia: i understand.
2015-05-06T15:41:23Z Shinmera: eudoxia: Sure, but IRC is good if you have the hope that the issue is trivially fixed.
2015-05-06T15:41:31Z Shinmera: So it's worth it to try it first.
2015-05-06T15:41:58Z eudoxia: yes, but for issues with more specific libraries, the chances of one particular person on irc knowing the solution are rather slim
2015-05-06T15:42:13Z eudoxia: so it's better to just go straight to the source, in this case, the author's repo
2015-05-06T15:42:26Z Shinmera: Clearly the solution is to force every library author to check IRC.
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2015-05-06T15:44:09Z eudoxia: timezones breh
2015-05-06T15:44:21Z Shinmera: No sleep for the wicked.
2015-05-06T15:44:36Z failproofshark: until they close their eyes for good?
2015-05-06T15:44:53Z Shinmera: Then it would be unmaintained and you're on your own anyway.
2015-05-06T15:44:54Z failproofshark: anyway, thanks everyone, ill see if anything pops up in my error logs and file a bug report
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2015-05-06T16:59:13Z protist: pjb: cl-durian no longer indents output...I'll give you something to update that file with sometime soon
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2015-05-06T17:00:13Z protist: pjb: I changed it to handle some cases I hadn't thought of until Xach mentioned them :p
2015-05-06T17:00:23Z protist: pjb: I have to sleep now though lol
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2015-05-06T17:11:43Z otwieracz: https://github.com/fukamachi/ningle/issues/5 – do you guys have any ideas?
2015-05-06T17:12:18Z eudoxia: i had the same thing recently when updating my libs to clack 2.0
2015-05-06T17:12:30Z eudoxia: i don't recall the solution, maybe load clack-v1-compat
2015-05-06T17:12:34Z otwieracz: Why APP should be pathname?
2015-05-06T17:12:45Z eudoxia: oh wait
2015-05-06T17:13:03Z eudoxia: also instead of (clack:clackup *app* ...) do (clack:clackup (lack:builder *app*) ...)
2015-05-06T17:13:09Z eudoxia: something like that should work
2015-05-06T17:13:15Z otwieracz: What is lack?
2015-05-06T17:13:20Z eudoxia: the core of clack
2015-05-06T17:13:54Z otwieracz: Oh my god.
2015-05-06T17:13:57Z otwieracz: What happend here.
2015-05-06T17:15:49Z Shinmera: An attempt at encapsulation and refactoring.
2015-05-06T17:16:14Z eudoxia: exactly my reaction tbh
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2015-05-06T17:37:17Z jasom pulls hair out
2015-05-06T17:37:35Z Zhivago: Are you making a trap for mice?
2015-05-06T17:38:00Z Oladon: Mice like hair for their nests, so that does seem likely.
2015-05-06T17:38:28Z jasom: I'm trying to get eclipse-cl running on emscripten.  Didn't have any time last week; have a few spare cycles this week
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2015-05-06T17:39:23Z eudoxia: good luck and may god have mercy on your soul
2015-05-06T17:39:25Z jasom: For some reason on native, the method lookup for pathname-parse-device works, but not on emscripten.
2015-05-06T17:40:06Z akkad: how does ecl tend to compare to sbcl in performance?
2015-05-06T17:40:37Z jasom: eclipse is implemented almost entirely on top of CLOS (unlike more traditional lisp implementations) so method lookup is fairly fundamental, and it's worked just fine up until this point
2015-05-06T17:40:44Z dim: akkad: what happens when you benchmark it?
2015-05-06T17:41:08Z dim: I mean with you own application/code of course
2015-05-06T17:41:15Z dim: any other benchmark would be meaningless
2015-05-06T17:41:18Z akkad: dim: I'm level setting my expectation before I setup all the Makefile requirements
2015-05-06T17:41:26Z jasom: minion: memo for beach: you have some tests for ANSI conformance; are they runnable without asdf?
2015-05-06T17:41:26Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-05-06T17:41:42Z dim: akkad: yeah there's that too
2015-05-06T17:41:45Z akkad: thus the request for a central tendency
2015-05-06T17:41:53Z dim: last I tried I couldn't have lparallel working on ECL, so no pgloader
2015-05-06T17:42:00Z dim: so I have no idea
2015-05-06T17:42:14Z jasom: akkad: depending on the code anywhere from somewhat slower to a lot slower.  For code you write yourself, it's a lot faster than clisp though (I think most of clisps standard library is a bit faster though)
2015-05-06T17:42:15Z Xach: jasom: the original ansi tests do not use asdf. i think beach is adding asdf loadability.
2015-05-06T17:42:58Z akkad: jasom. thanks. After finding ABCL to be the best for my code, I'm pretty happy
2015-05-06T17:43:06Z Xach: jasom: they were part of the gcl repo but i think are available separately from several other places.
2015-05-06T17:44:14Z eudoxia: e.g. https://github.com/sbcl/ansi-cl-tests
2015-05-06T17:45:13Z jasom was curious how well eclipse would do on those
2015-05-06T17:45:30Z jasom: I've fixed several bugs already thanks to valgrind
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2015-05-06T17:46:41Z jasom: a lot of the runtime initialization forgot to have the end-of-argument marker when calling from C to lisp; since it is a NULL though a zero-initialized stack will actually work without crashing
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2015-05-06T17:47:06Z Xach: jasom: i'm curious too
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2015-05-06T17:47:46Z jasom: I'll have to re-enable the GC to run those I suppose; I have it disabled for now to make testing easier
2015-05-06T17:48:26Z Xach: let it grow...let it grow...
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2015-05-06T17:49:40Z jasom: well it's 32-bit only so...
2015-05-06T17:49:57Z jasom: If it were 64-bit I'd just add a terrabyte of swap and let it run overnight
2015-05-06T17:50:29Z jasom: of course right now I'm more interested in the interpreter than the compiler
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2015-05-06T17:58:44Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/rtoy/ansi-cl-tests <- this is main repo, with a few recent commits
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2015-05-06T18:13:07Z akkad: in sbcl I saved an image of something I was working on in the repl
2015-05-06T18:13:27Z otwieracz: Hmm.
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2015-05-06T18:14:01Z otwieracz: Am I able to set route like "/*" in ningle to match /foo/bar/car into '(foo bar car) in :splat?
2015-05-06T18:14:04Z akkad: how do I see what functions I defined, command history
2015-05-06T18:14:13Z akkad: running it brings up a repl
2015-05-06T18:14:15Z ASau: akkad: if you take care checking if the package is up-to-date, it would be nice. :)
2015-05-06T18:14:29Z akkad: asau enotnbsd
2015-05-06T18:14:32Z ASau: akkad: labg/abcl
2015-05-06T18:14:45Z ASau shrugs.
2015-05-06T18:15:07Z akkad: Asau sure. I was not sure what you were suggesting
2015-05-06T18:15:11Z ASau: I don't use exclusively NetBSD to develop.
2015-05-06T18:15:20Z akkad: well LW 7 works on netbsd :P
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2015-05-16T05:38:19Z names: ccl-logbot cosmicexplorer dmiles_afk pacon3 A205B064 emaczen kami DrWat White_Flame a2015 setheus Petit_Dejeuner Denommus joneshf-laptop kcj ggole gingerale Karl_Dscc jtz smokeink beach pyon idafyaid singularity_1 wemeetagain sz0 ndrei cirklo keen____ theos zacharias_ jdz cyphase oleo_ f3lp aap_ joga voidlily x1n4u Oladon wooden bb010g vsync milosn defaultxr vhost- antgreen Patzy impulse leafybasil PinealGlandOptic edgar-rft robot-beethoven tkd
2015-05-16T05:38:19Z names: JokesOnYou77 sakes ssake devon JuanDaugherty gniourf_gniourf Bike clog alexherbo2 Jesin ASau psy_ eli akersof solyd kvsari MrWoohoo rtra _sjs DruidGreeneyes knobo happy-dude BitPuffin|osx specbot minion araujo yasha9 adlai d4ryus hitecnologys thodg quazimodo moei Intensity loz djinni` gigetoo jewel salv0 stepnem ahungry cmatei PlasmaStar russell-- Longlius lemonpepper24_ haasn Zotan rvchangue_ Walex scharan kjeldahl TristamWrk ktt9 MoALTz tristero
2015-05-16T05:38:19Z names: gniourf taij33n- marvi agumonkey newcup hyoyoung mtd karswell H4ns yeticry ronh- trinque CrazyEddy bjorkintosh someone bipt cyraxjoe farhaven eazar001 dfox diginet trn kephra GGMethos dan64 jasom yorick rk[1]_ smull failproofshark zyoung tessier wyan xan__ nopf rotty xificurC ferada Cthulhux jrm NaNDude aeth constantinexvi cross pinterface froggey nydel TeMPOraL dim arrsim mearnsh aerique AeroNotix vlnx K1rk AntiSpamMeta EnergyCoffee ft daimrod zaquest
2015-05-16T05:38:19Z names: fikusz Ralt dsp_ yang anunnaki Tordek Neptu alchemis7 splittist radioninja_work vert2 ir2ivps sharkz mingvs kbtr_ phf emma killmaster bthom2 nowhere_man_ Xof mikaelj ecraven c74d nicdev tsumetai schjetne lb5tr christoph_debian srcerer theBlackDragon peccu vaporatorius Xach foom cods ec\ jself_ gko heurist jonh flip214 Oddity ivan4th Tristam hratsimihah housel ski ramus viaken Zhivago seg `micro mburke bobbysmith007 Natch Khisanth peterhil backupthrick
2015-05-16T05:38:19Z names: stopbyte nitro_idiot_ capitaomorte` sword` troydm drdo CEnnis91 freehck __main__ mathrick ineiros ozzloy dilated_dinosaur josteink GuilOooo Posterdati katco faheem decent michaelreid s1n4 otwieracz loke johs jackc- akkad lemoinem kanru cibs m_zr0 nightshade427 whartung lancetw lieven pillton tomaw oconnore jlarocco_work axion sshirokov nightfly Kruppe cmbntr Odin- musegarden2 jackdaniel tuturto gz pchrist d4gg4d j_king munge` SAL9000 NhanH sigjuice
2015-05-16T05:38:19Z names: manfoo7`` Subfusc sytse schoppenhauer justinmcp dxtr Grue` rewzn funnel renard_ bhyde` Ober thomas redline6561 jeaye galdor eagleflo ivan\ lifenoodles_ ThePhoeron tokik shifty779 joast wglb` ``Erik salva Colleen copec XachX eMBee SHODAN alex6407 replcated edk sbryant |3b| swflint isoraqathedh victor_lowther endou_________ cojy_ guaqua john-mcaleely @p_l Plazma gensym arrdem z0d edran_ cpt_nemo larme Takumo zickzackv eak misv Tuxedo oGMo motumla_
2015-05-16T05:38:19Z names: Rudolph-Miller_ luis danlentz nisstyre bege quasisane rvirding ggherdov snafuchs moomin-aba___ _death Mandus The_third_man sjl finnrobi_ yeltzooo9 qlkzy Fade klltkr_ j0ni RazWelles jayne Borbus antoszka xristos abbe samebchase phadthai Blkt @fe[nl]ix ircbrowse brent80_plow sepi wenincode Neet pok drmeister jsnell_ sfa_ zbigniew mood kini sivoais gabot les trig-ger dfrank honkfestival kalzz stux|RC tokenrove dlowe bytecrawler yauz billstclair sellout-
2015-05-16T05:38:19Z names: birk tmh_ rj-code zymurgy roscoe_tw Cheery wolf_mozart p_l|back1p brandonz_ metaf5 PuercoPop lpaste brucem doppioslash
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2015-05-16T05:57:23Z names: ccl-logbot Davidbrcz kovrik cosmicexplorer dmiles_afk pacon3 A205B064 emaczen kami DrWat White_Flame a2015 setheus Petit_Dejeuner Denommus joneshf-laptop kcj ggole gingerale Karl_Dscc jtz smokeink beach pyon idafyaid singularity_1 wemeetagain sz0 ndrei cirklo keen____ theos zacharias_ jdz cyphase oleo_ f3lp aap_ joga voidlily x1n4u Oladon wooden bb010g vsync milosn defaultxr vhost- antgreen Patzy impulse leafybasil PinealGlandOptic edgar-rft robot-beethoven
2015-05-16T05:57:23Z names: tkd JokesOnYou77 sakes ssake devon JuanDaugherty gniourf_gniourf Bike clog alexherbo2 Jesin ASau psy_ eli akersof solyd kvsari MrWoohoo rtra _sjs DruidGreeneyes knobo happy-dude BitPuffin|osx specbot minion araujo yasha9 adlai d4ryus hitecnologys thodg quazimodo moei Intensity loz djinni` gigetoo jewel salv0 stepnem ahungry cmatei PlasmaStar russell-- Longlius lemonpepper24_ haasn Zotan rvchangue_ Walex scharan kjeldahl TristamWrk ktt9 MoALTz tristero
2015-05-16T05:57:23Z names: gniourf taij33n- marvi agumonkey newcup hyoyoung mtd karswell H4ns yeticry ronh- trinque CrazyEddy bjorkintosh someone bipt cyraxjoe farhaven eazar001 dfox diginet trn kephra GGMethos dan64 jasom yorick rk[1]_ smull failproofshark zyoung tessier wyan xan__ nopf rotty xificurC ferada Cthulhux jrm NaNDude aeth constantinexvi cross pinterface froggey nydel TeMPOraL dim arrsim mearnsh aerique AeroNotix vlnx K1rk AntiSpamMeta EnergyCoffee ft daimrod zaquest
2015-05-16T05:57:23Z names: fikusz Ralt dsp_ yang anunnaki Tordek Neptu alchemis7 splittist radioninja_work vert2 ir2ivps sharkz mingvs kbtr_ phf emma killmaster bthom2 nowhere_man_ Xof mikaelj ecraven c74d nicdev tsumetai schjetne lb5tr christoph_debian srcerer theBlackDragon peccu vaporatorius Xach foom cods ec\ jself_ gko heurist jonh flip214 Oddity ivan4th Tristam hratsimihah housel ski ramus viaken Zhivago seg `micro mburke bobbysmith007 Natch Khisanth peterhil backupthrick
2015-05-16T05:57:23Z names: stopbyte nitro_idiot_ capitaomorte` sword` troydm drdo CEnnis91 freehck __main__ mathrick ineiros ozzloy dilated_dinosaur josteink GuilOooo Posterdati katco faheem decent michaelreid s1n4 otwieracz loke johs jackc- akkad lemoinem kanru cibs m_zr0 nightshade427 whartung lancetw lieven pillton tomaw oconnore jlarocco_work axion sshirokov nightfly Kruppe cmbntr Odin- musegarden2 jackdaniel tuturto gz pchrist d4gg4d j_king munge` SAL9000 NhanH sigjuice
2015-05-16T05:57:23Z names: manfoo7`` Subfusc sytse schoppenhauer justinmcp dxtr Grue` rewzn funnel renard_ bhyde` Ober thomas z0d edran_ cpt_nemo larme Takumo zickzackv eak misv Tuxedo oGMo motumla_ Rudolph-Miller_ luis danlentz nisstyre bege quasisane rvirding ggherdov snafuchs moomin-aba___ _death Mandus The_third_man sjl finnrobi_ yeltzooo9 qlkzy Fade klltkr_ j0ni RazWelles jayne Borbus antoszka xristos abbe samebchase phadthai Blkt @fe[nl]ix ircbrowse brent80_plow sepi wenincode
2015-05-16T05:57:23Z names: Neet pok drmeister jsnell_ sfa_ zbigniew mood kini sivoais gabot les trig-ger dfrank honkfestival kalzz stux|RC tokenrove dlowe bytecrawler yauz billstclair sellout- birk tmh_ rj-code zymurgy roscoe_tw Cheery wolf_mozart p_l|back1p brandonz_ metaf5 PuercoPop lpaste brucem doppioslash arrdem gensym Plazma @p_l john-mcaleely guaqua cojy_ endou_________ victor_lowther isoraqathedh swflint |3b| sbryant edk replcated alex6407 SHODAN eMBee XachX copec Colleen
2015-05-16T05:57:23Z names: salva ``Erik wglb` joast shifty779 tokik ThePhoeron lifenoodles_ ivan\ eagleflo galdor jeaye redline6561
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2015-05-16T06:35:11Z PuercoPop: katco: you can use cl-interpol instead of writing your own, just (enable-interpol-syntax) and then #?'this is "my" string'
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2015-05-16T07:16:44Z beach: YAY!  Phase 1 of SICL bootstrapping is complete.  I now have a SICL first-class global environment in which all the MOP classes are defined, and also all the slot accessors of those classes.
2015-05-16T07:17:31Z beach: Those classes are ordinary host standard classes, but the have all the right slots in them and all the right accessors.
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2015-05-16T07:20:19Z beach: Next, I will implement the class initialization protocol for those MOP classes.  Well, it's already implemented, but I need to load the files in that first-class global environment.
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2015-05-16T07:25:53Z Oladon: JokesOnYou77: It works!
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2015-05-16T07:48:59Z wbooze: morning
2015-05-16T07:49:17Z H4ns: is #() legal common lisp reader syntax?
2015-05-16T07:49:23Z wbooze: yes
2015-05-16T07:49:30Z wbooze: it's an array designator
2015-05-16T07:49:55Z H4ns: wbooze: i get that.  it is just that clozure cl barfs on it.
2015-05-16T07:50:07Z wbooze: (make-array 3) => #(0 0 0)
2015-05-16T07:50:14Z wbooze: ah
2015-05-16T07:50:16Z H4ns: ah, wait:  #4() is what makes ccl choke
2015-05-16T07:50:20Z wbooze: i have no idea about clozure
2015-05-16T07:50:47Z H4ns: so my question was: is #4() legal common lisp reader syntax?
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2015-05-16T07:55:31Z H4ns: both clisp and clozure cl don't like #4(), so i wonder whether they are buggy or whether the syntax is illegal.
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2015-05-16T07:58:52Z beach: "The consequences are undefined if the unsigned decimal integer is non-zero and number of objects supplied before the closing ) is zero."
2015-05-16T07:59:03Z ehu: H4ns: I'm thinking it's illegal: you may specify fewer than the unsigned integer elements, but in that case the last element is used to fill the remainder of the vector. that implies at least one element, I would say?
2015-05-16T07:59:21Z beach: clhs 2.4.8.3
2015-05-16T07:59:21Z specbot: Sharpsign Left-Parenthesis: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhc.htm
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2015-05-16T07:59:53Z wbooze: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/f_set__1.htm#set-dispatch-macro-character
2015-05-16T08:00:06Z wbooze: obviousyl it is allowed
2015-05-16T08:00:46Z wbooze: as long as it is a dispatch-macro-character
2015-05-16T08:01:13Z wbooze: or as long as there's a dispatch-macro-character associated with it i mean.....
2015-05-16T08:01:19Z beach: wbooze: I think H4ns is talking about the standard dispatch macro character #(.
2015-05-16T08:01:21Z H4ns: beach: thank you!
2015-05-16T08:01:53Z beach: H4ns: Anytime! :)
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2015-05-16T08:03:21Z H4ns: beach: i've credited you in the book review for edi's lisp recipes
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2015-05-16T08:04:03Z beach: H4ns: Oh?  What did I do?
2015-05-16T08:04:28Z wbooze: #3(1 2 3 4) => (1 2 3)
2015-05-16T08:04:31Z wbooze: in sbcl
2015-05-16T08:04:33Z H4ns: beach: you pointed out why #4() is illegal
2015-05-16T08:04:43Z beach: Heh, OK.
2015-05-16T08:05:02Z wbooze: sb-impl::sharp-left-paren
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2015-05-16T08:06:02Z beach: wbooze: It would be great if you would read the Common Lisp HyperSpec page.
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2015-05-16T08:12:47Z wbooze: i did
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2015-05-16T09:01:14Z jackdaniel: ehu: I've submitted patches to utils-kt and cells and abcl should load cells now after quicklisp libs update
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2015-05-16T09:25:40Z salv0: is there any function in CL able to dump any CLOS object in an human friendly manner? similar to the inspector but non-interactive
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2015-05-16T09:28:18Z kami: salv0: (describe my-instance)
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2015-05-16T09:29:01Z salv0: kami: thanks!
2015-05-16T09:29:06Z kami: yw
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2015-05-16T10:34:10Z ehu: jackdaniel: thanks! that's good news!
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2015-05-16T10:45:31Z gniourf: if I have a function that outputs to a stream, say (defun writer (stream) format stream "hello~%") and a function that reads from a stream, say (defun reader (stream) (read-line stream)), how can I pipe the two together?
2015-05-16T10:45:57Z gniourf: (there are obvious missing parens in writer, sorry)
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2015-05-16T10:48:03Z gniourf: is there a macro like (do-some-magic (my-stream writer) (read-line my-stream))?
2015-05-16T10:48:09Z beach: clhs make-two-way-stream
2015-05-16T10:48:09Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_two.htm
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2015-05-16T10:48:44Z gniourf: I've seen this already, but I remain clueless as to how to use it :(
2015-05-16T10:48:59Z beach: See the example.
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2015-05-16T10:51:03Z gniourf: but the example uses (with-input-from-string (in "input...") and I don't see how to use this with writer
2015-05-16T10:51:35Z beach: It also uses WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING.
2015-05-16T10:51:43Z gniourf: yes
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2015-05-16T10:52:24Z gniourf: I'm still clueless
2015-05-16T10:52:51Z jackdaniel: concatenate-streams?
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2015-05-16T10:53:48Z gniourf: ?
2015-05-16T10:54:15Z jackdaniel: flexi-streams (i think) provides function concatenate-streams
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2015-05-16T10:55:23Z gniourf: so you're saying there's no easy straightforward way?
2015-05-16T10:55:46Z H4ns: gniourf: there is not
2015-05-16T10:55:52Z gniourf: ok
2015-05-16T10:56:28Z gniourf: so far I was able to make a macro that slurps the output stream from reader in a string and feeds it to writer
2015-05-16T10:56:37Z gniourf: so this is a good approach?
2015-05-16T10:56:43Z H4ns: gniourf: why do you need a macro for that?
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2015-05-16T10:57:05Z H4ns: gniourf: the basic issue with what you're trying is that it requires concurrency to be useful, and concurrency is not specified in common lisp
2015-05-16T10:57:19Z gniourf: yes, that's what I figured out…
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2015-05-16T10:58:09Z jackdaniel: lparallel provides so-called channels, but they're not streams
2015-05-16T10:58:10Z gniourf: I need a macro to mimick with-open-file, replacing the filename by my writer function
2015-05-16T10:58:45Z H4ns: gniourf: no, you need a specialized stream that does what you need.  the macro that you want to use is called WITH-OPEN and it is part of the standard
2015-05-16T10:58:59Z gniourf: really? let me check that
2015-05-16T10:59:11Z H4ns: gniourf: look at grey streams, the sbcl documentation has some useful examples.  also cltl2 speaks about them iirc.
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2015-05-16T11:03:13Z gniourf: can't find with-open macro, there's only with-open-file and with-open-stream
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2015-05-16T11:07:05Z H4ns: WITH-OPEN-STREAM, sorry
2015-05-16T11:08:25Z gniourf: ok, makes sense
2015-05-16T11:09:19Z gniourf: yet, I don't really see how to use it in my case
2015-05-16T11:09:58Z H4ns: you need to implement a stream class that provides the behavior, then you can use them like file streams.
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2015-05-16T11:20:40Z protist: odd...the account that has cl-mongo on github had activity 14 hours ago...but has not closed an issue on cl-mongo is 2 years
2015-05-16T11:20:52Z protist: I guess it is no longer maintained?
2015-05-16T11:21:04Z protist: in* two years
2015-05-16T11:21:34Z gniourf: ok, more specifically this is what I had so far: http://ix.io/iAp
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2015-05-16T11:24:11Z protist: yeah...bunch of forks farther along...but the fons one is on Quicklisp https://github.com/fons/cl-mongo/network
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2015-05-16T13:01:54Z haom: hello, does anybody know how to define new named characters, like #\space and #newline?
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2015-05-16T13:11:41Z jackdaniel: haom: these are not "named" characters, it's just their readable representation
2015-05-16T13:11:49Z jackdaniel: there is no such thing as named character
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2015-05-16T13:13:55Z haom: if I wanted to name a non-printable character thats not convered yet, how could I do that?
2015-05-16T13:14:34Z haom: something like (defchar code '#\mychar)
2015-05-16T13:15:14Z jackdaniel: characters are defined by standards - and characters are independed from their codes
2015-05-16T13:17:05Z haom: there are characters not defined by lisp standards yet, and I'd like to define some of them for my library.
2015-05-16T13:17:29Z jackdaniel: but you can make your own dispatching macro, like #~my-character-name
2015-05-16T13:17:49Z haom: right now, i just map keywords to codes, but I'd like to make them like the standard characters like #\newline.
2015-05-16T13:18:04Z Shinmera: "lisp standards"? What?
2015-05-16T13:18:30Z haom: #\newline and #\space are standard characters defined in the standard.
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2015-05-16T13:20:23Z Shinmera: No, they're character /names/.
2015-05-16T13:21:02Z jackdaniel: haom: what character isn't covered in lisp implementation of your choice?
2015-05-16T13:21:52Z haom: all typical function keys.
2015-05-16T13:22:09Z haom: arrow up, F12, and so on.
2015-05-16T13:22:29Z jackdaniel: keyboard keys aren't characters
2015-05-16T13:22:32Z Shinmera: What characters you have available depends on the /character set/. Their code depends on the /character encoding/. Neither of these things are specified by the CLHS.
2015-05-16T13:23:12Z haom: jackdaniel: newline also isnt a character, but it is treated as one.
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2015-05-16T13:23:30Z jackdaniel: newline is a character
2015-05-16T13:23:38Z Shinmera: clhs glossary/newline
2015-05-16T13:23:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_n.htm#newline
2015-05-16T13:23:42Z haom: it is a movement command.
2015-05-16T13:24:16Z jackdaniel: it's so called special character
2015-05-16T13:24:18Z jackdaniel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newline
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2015-05-16T13:24:48Z haom: yes, then my question would be how to define additional special characters.
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2015-05-16T13:25:15Z Shinmera: Characters are defined by the encoding.
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2015-05-16T13:25:20Z Shinmera: err, character set
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2015-05-16T13:25:37Z Shinmera: If you want to add your own charset, write it up, and add support to your implementations for it.
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2015-05-16T13:25:52Z jackdaniel: haom: you have to define encoding - there is no portable way to do  this
2015-05-16T13:26:16Z jackdaniel: ecl for example has (ext:make-encoding mapping)
2015-05-16T13:26:43Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: An encoding and a character set are two distinct things.
2015-05-16T13:27:31Z haom: ok, thanks, I'll take a look at that.
2015-05-16T13:27:53Z haom: but it does sound like more effort than i hoped.
2015-05-16T13:28:16Z haom: i just get codes from the keyboard, and want to name them.
2015-05-16T13:28:39Z jackdaniel: haom: use hashtable
2015-05-16T13:28:59Z haom: i am right now.
2015-05-16T13:30:02Z haom: i map keywords to codes, but i hoped that i can do something like (print #\up-arrow), so that the standard io functions treat them as chars.
2015-05-16T13:30:47Z Shinmera: For that to work they'd have to be in the character set. Usually the character set is an ASCII descendant or Unicode, which do not have characters for that.
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2015-05-16T13:39:27Z White_Flame: unicode does have a character for that: http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2191/index.htm
2015-05-16T13:39:35Z White_Flame: though #\upwards-arrow isn't recognized in SBCL
2015-05-16T13:39:46Z Shinmera: White_Flame: that's not the same as "pressing the up key"
2015-05-16T13:39:55Z Shinmera: That's a character representing the upwards arrow.
2015-05-16T13:40:02Z White_Flame: oh, cursor-up, yeah
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2015-05-16T15:01:35Z Oladon: jok
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2015-05-16T15:17:41Z wbooze: hello
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2015-05-16T15:18:17Z beach: Hello wbooze.
2015-05-16T15:18:32Z wbooze: hello beach
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2015-05-16T15:19:48Z wbooze: how are you ?
2015-05-16T15:21:03Z beach: Me?  Always fine.
2015-05-16T15:21:25Z wbooze: fine fine :)
2015-05-16T15:22:35Z wbooze: heh
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2015-05-16T15:30:30Z Zohan: is format Turing Complete ?
2015-05-16T15:30:46Z Shinmera: clhs ~/
2015-05-16T15:30:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ced.htm
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2015-05-16T15:31:06Z Shinmera: Why does it matter though?
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2015-05-16T15:32:26Z Zohan: ok, so launching lisp functions make it Turing complete but isn't it cheating ?
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2015-05-16T15:32:54Z Shinmera: Depends on your idea of "turing complete" and "cheating".
2015-05-16T15:32:59Z Zohan: It doesn't matter really but I want to know
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2015-05-16T15:35:37Z Shinmera: Apparently not enough to stick around.
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2015-05-16T15:55:13Z failproofshark: hello
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2015-05-16T15:55:26Z beach: Hello failproofshark.
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2015-05-16T15:58:23Z failproofshark: how's it going beach ?
2015-05-16T15:58:35Z beach: failproofshark: Always fine.  Thanks.
2015-05-16T15:59:09Z failproofshark: good
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2015-05-16T16:10:40Z hitecnologys: Is there any way I could temporarily pause thread execution except for signaling condition and then waiting in signal handler until thread is "resumed"?
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2015-05-16T16:43:58Z emaczen: How do I enable auto-completion in the CCL IDE?
2015-05-16T16:44:27Z emaczen: I believe that I have seen some auto-completion sources in contrib modules, but I would think there is some initialization file like a .emacs
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2015-05-16T16:47:52Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: bt:thread-yield? cl:sleep? bt:condition-wait? What kind of "pausing" do you need?
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2015-05-16T16:50:25Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I need to be able to interrupt execution of random thread which possibly doesn't even know it's being interrupted. In other words, I'm implementing preemtion for task scheduler.
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2015-05-16T16:50:58Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: of course I could force threads to cooperate but that'd be not very portable and flexible.
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2015-05-16T16:52:11Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: Sounds quite nasty in any case.
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2015-05-16T16:52:55Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: right, that's why I'm trying to research how it could be done first to decide whether I should take another approach or not.
2015-05-16T16:52:59Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: You could try to do it with a combination of bt:interrupt-thread and bt:condition-wait, but I can't say how good of an idea that would be.
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2015-05-16T16:53:26Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: yeah, that's what I came up with too.
2015-05-16T16:53:56Z Shinmera: Otherwise you'd have to force some kind of execution model where the thread always boils down to a loop with a variable check in place.
2015-05-16T16:54:24Z hitecnologys: That's what I have now. Horrible, horrible way, I could say.
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2015-05-16T16:54:43Z hitecnologys: Sometimes thread hangs waiting for input and that's it. Too much to take care of for a user.
2015-05-16T16:54:45Z Shinmera: interrupting isn't exactly not horrible either though.
2015-05-16T16:54:52Z hitecnologys: Right.
2015-05-16T16:54:58Z Shinmera: I've run into loads of situations where I couldn't interrupt or terminate threads anymore.
2015-05-16T16:55:16Z hitecnologys: But that would at least let me make computer do the thing in stead of me.
2015-05-16T16:55:35Z hitecnologys: Which is what I'm trying to achieve.
2015-05-16T16:56:14Z hitecnologys: Well, if thread doesn't respond to interrupt it's killed.
2015-05-16T16:56:34Z hitecnologys: That's nasty but letting other tasks run is more important.
2015-05-16T16:56:50Z Shinmera: Killing doesn't always succeed either in my experience.
2015-05-16T16:56:57Z hitecnologys: How come?
2015-05-16T16:57:23Z Shinmera: I don't know. I just distinctly having situations where threads would continue running no matter how many times I tired to kill it.
2015-05-16T16:57:31Z Shinmera: *distinctly remember
2015-05-16T16:58:06Z hitecnologys: Heh.
2015-05-16T16:58:09Z hitecnologys: That's nasty.
2015-05-16T16:58:22Z Shinmera: I can't say what I was doing wrong or what was really going on, so all I have to offer is the above FUD.
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2015-05-16T17:00:13Z Shinmera has a long standing to do item to rewrite Colleen to no longer rely on locks.
2015-05-16T17:00:18Z hitecnologys: I guess I should probably forget about preemption then and implement some kind of task quantization so that I could execute complicated tasks in small quick-running pieces.
2015-05-16T17:00:39Z hitecnologys: Does that sound sane?
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2015-05-16T17:00:57Z Shinmera: If you can do it, that sounds like a much more promising approach.
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2015-05-16T17:01:48Z hitecnologys: The problem is that I want it to run constant time in worst case which is hardly achievable this way.
2015-05-16T17:02:06Z Shinmera: Still, I would do some tests first to see if you can't get interruptions to work.
2015-05-16T17:02:10Z hitecnologys: And it would probably require additional care from user which is what I'm trying to avoid.
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2015-05-16T17:02:38Z hitecnologys: Right. Would probably start with testing.
2015-05-16T17:02:46Z abbe: hi
2015-05-16T17:02:55Z wbooze: hello
2015-05-16T17:02:59Z Oladon: 'lo abbe
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2015-05-16T17:03:26Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: anyway, thanks for help. I'll report back once I'm done, if I get any significant results.
2015-05-16T17:03:37Z Shinmera: Sure, count me interested.
2015-05-16T17:03:46Z abbe: I've quite a few structs, and would like to generate functions which parses raw data into those structures. I've a basic code like this: https://pastebin.com/167bxHvk
2015-05-16T17:04:19Z abbe: but it fails for reason mentioned in the paste. wondering what's the best way to go about this.
2015-05-16T17:04:45Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: basically, the goal is to make the program do all the magic and allow users to only write code which is then fairly paralleled across workers, if possible.
2015-05-16T17:05:01Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: this is my childhood dream — seamless multitasking.
2015-05-16T17:05:25Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: Seems like a lot of people's dream to be honest. Are you sure there isn't already something that does this?
2015-05-16T17:05:58Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: not for Lisp.
2015-05-16T17:06:20Z wbooze: hmmmm
2015-05-16T17:06:20Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: at least it's not easily googleable.
2015-05-16T17:06:35Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: Have you looked at STM (STMX for CL)?
2015-05-16T17:07:34Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I did. That's what I'm using and I'm very happy with it. The thing about STM is that it's quite low-level so I'm implementing higher level abstraction on top of STMX.
2015-05-16T17:07:42Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: I see.
2015-05-16T17:07:56Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: STM is close to what I want, it just needs a little bit more sugar.
2015-05-16T17:08:09Z Shinmera: I wouldn't know of something that does this already, but I'd be interested in using it.
2015-05-16T17:09:22Z hitecnologys: I hope I've got enough patience and knowledge not to dump it in the middle of the way this time. =P
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2015-05-16T17:09:55Z hitecnologys: The task is hard, I fear it's a little bit too much for a undergraduate.
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2015-05-16T17:10:21Z hitecnologys: But, well, it's not like I'm limited in time...
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2015-05-16T17:44:48Z adlai: hitecnologys: https://github.com/adlai/scalpl/blob/master/actor.lisp is my step in that direction
2015-05-16T17:45:44Z adlai: sorry, https://github.com/zkat/chanl/blob/master/src/actors.lisp
2015-05-16T17:46:37Z hitecnologys: adlai: I assume it's lock-based?
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2015-05-16T17:47:27Z adlai: CSP, although the default channel implementation uses locks
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2015-05-16T17:47:49Z hitecnologys: I see.
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2015-05-16T17:48:33Z hitecnologys: Well, I'm already familiar with part of your actors.lisp from method combinator thing. I'll guess I'll study the rest then, thanks.
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2015-05-16T17:51:51Z adlai: how'd the typespec method combination end up?
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2015-05-16T18:01:53Z hitecnologys: Good.
2015-05-16T18:01:57Z hitecnologys: Seems to work.
2015-05-16T18:02:07Z hitecnologys: Your example was very helpful, thanks.
2015-05-16T18:02:37Z hitecnologys: Though, I haven't yet profiled it to see how efficient method combination approach is.
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2015-05-16T18:26:42Z madnificent: if i set Hunchentoot's return-code to +http-not-found+ (that's a 404), then Hunchentoot will host a custom page indicating the resource could not be found.  is there a way to supply the body directly, rather than through that system?  i'm trying to implement jsonapi.org and these responses are in my way.
2015-05-16T18:28:02Z jackdaniel: madnificent: maybe use handler which constantly answers T?
2015-05-16T18:28:08Z jackdaniel: if nothing is match
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2015-05-16T18:29:21Z madnificent: jackdaniel: I have a matching handler.  I explicitly set the return code to be 404
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2015-05-16T18:30:11Z madnificent: jackdaniel: in this case, when the id of the requested resource did not correspond with an object in the database.  eg: if /posts/42 is requested, but no such post exist.
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2015-05-16T18:32:20Z Xach: This has been discussed on the hunchentoot list before, but I don't remember the resolution.
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2015-05-16T18:33:59Z Shinmera: I never had a problem sending my own content on error pages, but then again I don't use hunchentoot's easy* system.
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2015-05-16T18:34:51Z madnificent: Shinmera: this is indeed in an easy-handler
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2015-05-16T18:35:32Z Shinmera: What I do with hunchentoot is just set hunchentoot:*dispatch-table* to a list containing a single function that does all my dispatching for me.
2015-05-16T18:35:44Z madnificent: Shinmera: it's with 'create-regex-dispatcher, actually.  i suppose that uses the same internals though.
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2015-05-16T18:39:39Z madnificent: Shinmera: looking at the code, i don't see where this would differ from your approach.  the regex-dispatcher simply invokes the handler if the regex matches...  is there any configuration you're setting?
2015-05-16T18:40:57Z Shinmera: madnificent: No. https://github.com/Shirakumo/radiance-drivers/blob/master/i-hunchentoot/i-hunchentoot.lisp#L114
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2015-05-16T18:46:22Z madnificent: Shinmera: and 404 bodies get correctly forwarded by that?
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2015-05-16T18:46:35Z Shinmera: Yes.
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2015-05-16T18:48:05Z Shinmera: You can see it in action http://user.tymoon.eu/whatnot
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2015-05-16T18:49:58Z madnificent: Shinmera: interesting :)
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2015-05-16T18:56:36Z Shinmera: madnificent: The actual error handling doesn't do anything but set the fields on the dummy request object that the driver then translates back to hunchentoot-land. So yes, it works fine.
2015-05-16T18:56:48Z Shinmera: ( https://github.com/Shirakumo/radiance-core/blob/master/conditions.lisp#L107 )
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2015-05-16T19:02:16Z madnificent: Shinmera: I'll take a peek at it later.  First food, then code :)
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2015-05-16T19:02:24Z madnificent: Shinmera: thank you for the pointers
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2015-05-16T19:13:53Z Shinmera: madnificent: The whole system is quite complicated, but the essence of the hunchentoot interaction is in the i-hunchentoot.lisp post-handler function.
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2015-05-16T19:25:06Z katco: is there a way to export an unexported function in another package using asdf?
2015-05-16T19:25:24Z Shinmera: What would ASDF have to do with that?
2015-05-16T19:25:30Z Shinmera: clhs export
2015-05-16T19:25:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_export.htm
2015-05-16T19:25:48Z katco: Shinmera: <-- lisp newbie. i dunno, that seems to be the place i'm managing dependencies?
2015-05-16T19:26:16Z katco: Shinmera: when i use that, and then ql my project, it complains
2015-05-16T19:26:43Z Shinmera: You generally shouldn't manipulate other people's packages.
2015-05-16T19:26:56Z Shinmera: If you have to use an unexported symbol, use the double colons.
2015-05-16T19:27:05Z Shinmera: as in package::foo instead of package:foo
2015-05-16T19:27:09Z katco: Shinmera: doh, that's what i needed. ty
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2015-05-16T19:30:43Z katco: Shinmera: i'm following this blog post for cl-json: https://julien.danjou.info/blog/2013/cl-postmodern-dao-json
2015-05-16T19:31:01Z katco: Shinmera: but i wanted to invert the package... e.g. define these methods while in my package
2015-05-16T19:31:08Z katco: Shinmera: (see last example block in that post)
2015-05-16T19:32:19Z Shinmera: I'm not sure I follow.
2015-05-16T19:32:34Z Shinmera: Which method, the encode-json one?
2015-05-16T19:32:42Z katco: Shinmera: yes
2015-05-16T19:33:12Z katco: Shinmera: because i'm using several types/methods from my package, i didn't want to export all of those just to define my custom encode-json method within cl-json
2015-05-16T19:33:21Z Shinmera: (in-package :my-package) (defmethod json:encode-json ...) should work fine then, no?
2015-05-16T19:33:36Z Shinmera: The style in that tutorial seems very sketchy to me.
2015-05-16T19:33:55Z katco: Shinmera: hm, ok duly noted. i wonder if there's a better way?
2015-05-16T19:34:10Z katco: Shinmera: i just want to say "cl-json, when you see this type, do this instead."
2015-05-16T19:34:20Z Shinmera: And you can?
2015-05-16T19:34:41Z Shinmera: I mean, just do the DEFMETHOD while in your package, but prefix the ENCODE-JSON with the package name as shown above.
2015-05-16T19:35:03Z katco: Shinmera: ok i'll try that
2015-05-16T19:36:45Z katco: Shinmera: yay, that seems to work :)
2015-05-16T19:37:07Z katco: Shinmera: ty for the help
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2015-05-16T19:37:55Z jackdaniel: is there any eta of new cffi release?
2015-05-16T19:38:19Z Shinmera: katco: Maybe reading https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/265 will clear some things up
2015-05-16T19:38:46Z katco: Shinmera: oooh ty
2015-05-16T19:38:50Z katco: Shinmera: i'll give that a read
2015-05-16T19:39:01Z Shinmera: At least I hope it will. I haven't heard any feedback about it so far.
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2015-05-16T20:17:17Z ZombieChicken: Does CL have anything that would resemble a pointer?
2015-05-16T20:18:12Z LiamH: locative?
2015-05-16T20:18:39Z LiamH: not CL though
2015-05-16T20:18:42Z jackdaniel: ZombieChicken: check informatigo packages, there was pointer implementation
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2015-05-16T20:21:38Z ZombieChicken: ty
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2015-05-16T20:38:19Z emaczen: Running M-x slime is not working on my mac -- I'm using emacsformacosx
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2015-05-16T20:43:24Z drmeister: I wrote a blog post on Clasp's new tagging scheme - I welcome any thoughts:  https://drmeister.wordpress.com/2015/05/16/tagged-pointers-and-immediate-fixnums-characters-and-single-floats-in-clasp/
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2015-05-16T20:46:07Z Xach: yay
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2015-05-16T21:11:44Z Walex: drmeister: seems vaguely reasonable
2015-05-16T21:12:32Z emaczen: Is ther any documented cases of slime not working on mac? It worked for me before but I just reinstalled Yosemite.
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2015-05-16T21:18:44Z madnificent: Shinmera: what i don't get about the hunchentoot situation is why my installation does something different than yours.  it seems very similar.  i can do the dispatching manually, but unless the primary dispatching function is treated in a special way, i don't see why mine would serve the 404 page and yours wouldn't.
2015-05-16T21:19:35Z Shinmera: madnificent: I'm busy with my weekly Movie Night, so I can't go find out right now. As of now I don't know what's going on beyond the point of "you can make it work".
2015-05-16T21:21:13Z madnificent: Shinmera: i wasn't trying to push you.  enjoy Movie Night!
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2015-05-16T21:21:58Z drmeister: Walex: Thanks
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2015-05-16T21:30:08Z adlai: hitecnologys: my guess, wildly inefficient :)
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2015-05-16T21:34:46Z madnificent: Shinmera, Xach: in case the question arizes again: upgrade hunchentoot. <done>  thanks for the pointers and the help.
2015-05-16T21:35:11Z Shinmera: madnificent: How old was that version? I've never had such an issue in the two years I've used it.
2015-05-16T21:35:45Z madnificent: Shinmera: old box :)  That's about the time-frame I believe.
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2015-05-16T21:36:00Z madnificent: stumpwm upgrade-fear I suppose
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2015-05-16T21:45:34Z chuchana: emaczen: have you reinstalled slime?
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2015-05-16T21:49:00Z drmeister: When I create a class using CLOS - is the compiler invoked?
2015-05-16T21:49:17Z Bike: might be, might not be, depends on the implementation.
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2015-05-16T21:49:42Z chuchana: emaczen: if you have not installed it after installing yosemite, I suggest you install it via Quicklisp. I first installed it as an emacs package and there were some problems with it.
2015-05-16T21:51:06Z drmeister: Part of the Clasp startup procedure involves creating the Common Lisp class hierarchy.  It takes about 17 seconds to create them. I'm wondering if it's the compiler that is responsible
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2015-05-16T21:53:10Z Bike: ...well, that depends on whether your functions are written to use the compiler, of course
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2015-05-16T22:36:25Z emaczen: Is there autocompletion in the CCL IDE for mac osx?
2015-05-16T22:37:15Z emaczen: If I want to make cocoa apps, also if I could just use SLIME that would be great since I use slime-company for my autocompletion there.
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2015-05-16T22:47:22Z emaczen: for anyone else looking, completions are bound to M/
2015-05-16T22:48:24Z emaczen: Now the question is, how can I rebind keys similar to emacs keybindings.
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2015-05-16T22:59:00Z drmeister: jackdaniel: Are you still online?
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2015-05-16T22:59:49Z diginet: so, this is something that has confused me for quite awhile: Lispers especially (but other programmers too) like to throw around the term "DSL" a whole lot. Increasingly, it appears to be applied to anything and everything. Now, personally, I always thought of a DSL as something like Awk: a language with a very specific purpose. However, I've looked at a lot of stuff that people call "DSLs" and I just can't see how these are separate "languages" in any meani
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2015-05-16T23:00:34Z Bike: your message cut off after "in any meaning".
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2015-05-16T23:01:50Z diginet: . . .and I just can't see how these are separate "languages" in any meaningful sense of the word. Am I missing something?
2015-05-16T23:01:55Z diginet: Bike: thanks
2015-05-16T23:02:53Z diginet: like I read stuff all the time like "lisp is actually a metalanguage for designing little languages" but is that *really* true in practice? It just seems to me to be really nebulous platitude. Things I see described as "little languages" or "DSLs" is stuff that seems to me would just be a library
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2015-05-16T23:04:43Z diginet: and perhaps more importantly, this is always taken, unquestioned, as a *good* thing. Even if we assume it were true, I fail to see how having to learn or write a new language for every little problem is a good thing.
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2015-05-16T23:06:27Z diginet: I like lisp, but stuff like that just comes across, to me, as pointless drivel
2015-05-16T23:09:05Z Bike: language activism is prone to drivel, but i don't have any substantial response to your specific point
2015-05-16T23:09:24Z diginet: Bike: do you know what I'm talking about though?
2015-05-16T23:09:36Z diginet: Ruby people make similar claims a whole lot too
2015-05-16T23:09:51Z Bike: well, a bit
2015-05-16T23:10:08Z Bike: i prefer the characterization of "growing the language" and stuff, just throwin' in macros to make it seem natural to do whatever it is you're doing
2015-05-16T23:10:37Z drmeister: Does anyone know whether or how ECL invokes the compiler when you define a CLOS class?
2015-05-16T23:11:00Z diginet: yeah, of course. Like for example, I was writing some macros for Lua the other day to easy writing modules, and yet I've seen equally trivial things be referred to as DSLs
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2015-05-16T23:12:03Z diginet: or like, for example, there's a web framework in Perl called Dancer, and the documentation continually refers to the "dancer DSL." Except that what exactly that is, is never specified.
2015-05-16T23:12:38Z diginet: It makes no use of macros AFAIK, the syntax is perl, the semantics are perl. How is using a particular framework coding in a "separate language?"
2015-05-16T23:13:57Z Bike: well, using different vocabulary with the same grammar is kind of different-language-y. but yeah it's pretty buzzwordish.
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2015-05-16T23:15:50Z Shinmera doesn't like the term DSL for lisp programs either
2015-05-16T23:15:58Z diginet: Bike: in a sense, I suppose, but it's a highly unusual use of the word
2015-05-16T23:16:13Z Shinmera: As usual it boils down to what one understands under the term.
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2015-05-16T23:16:32Z diginet: if a "language" has precisely the same semantics as another, then it's just the same thing.
2015-05-16T23:17:02Z Shinmera: If that's what your idea is...
2015-05-16T23:17:10Z Shinmera shrugs
2015-05-16T23:17:11Z diginet: Bike: unusual in the context of programming languages
2015-05-16T23:17:23Z Shinmera: I don't much see the point in fussing over a trivial thing like this
2015-05-16T23:18:08Z diginet: Shinmera: it's symptomatic, IMO, of a cultural problem which exists among functional programming people. Though I will admit, Lispers aren't as bad as Haskellers in that department
2015-05-16T23:18:29Z Shinmera: Luckily this channel isn't really for discussions of culture.
2015-05-16T23:18:32Z diginet: making grand sweeping claims that are, if not wrong, meaningless
2015-05-16T23:18:38Z diginet: Shinmera: fair enough
2015-05-16T23:19:04Z Shinmera: I'd much rather hear about an interesting CL project than fret about what people use buzzwords for
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2015-05-16T23:20:13Z diginet: I suppose, but at the same time, I think language is important. If otherwise useful words become diluted to the point of meaninglessness, it can make communication difficult. Especially when said words are technical terms.
2015-05-16T23:21:26Z Shinmera: Sure, but we aren't an authority on language. We can't tell others to not use a term for whatever it is they're doing.
2015-05-16T23:21:36Z diginet: to give a practical example, "overloading" of the word "language" in this context drowns out actual discussion of implementing  actual languages in Lisp, a worthy topic
2015-05-16T23:22:28Z diginet: yeah, I guess there isn't much that can be done, except to brush up on French and petition the Academie Francaise to ban the term :P
2015-05-16T23:22:56Z Shinmera: We have a couple of French people here.
2015-05-16T23:30:03Z Petit_Dejeuner: That's a start.
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2015-05-16T23:32:16Z Petit_Dejeuner: diginet, If you read this, http://journal.stuffwithstuff.com/2013/07/18/javascript-isnt-scheme/ , you'll get why people would want to say their language has DSLs, and then you'll be prepared to disect this http://www.randomhacks.net/2005/12/03/why-ruby-is-an-acceptable-lisp/
2015-05-16T23:33:35Z zacts: http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/sf/current/index.html <-- a cool book
2015-05-16T23:33:47Z Petit_Dejeuner: dissect*
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2015-05-17T00:08:11Z Shinmera: minion: memo for beach: I wrote a short article about my ideas for the document processing model that we talked about.. last winter, I believe. https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/320
2015-05-17T00:08:11Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-05-17T02:28:12Z drmeister: minion: memo for beach: Could we talk about inlining, compiler macros, binary functions for arithmetic and type inference in Cleavir?  I'd like to start thinking about how I'm going to take advantage of all this now that I have immediate's and tagged pointers.
2015-05-17T02:28:12Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-05-17T02:29:28Z aeth: minion: I've found "they" is the most useful pronoun to use when the pronoun is unknown, at least ime.
2015-05-17T02:29:28Z minion: I've found "they" is the most useful pronoun to use when the pronoun is unknown, at least ime: An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "http://www.cliki.net/I've%20found%20\"they\"%20is%20the%20most%20useful%20pronoun%20to%20use%20when%20the%20pronoun%20is%20unknown%2C%20at%20least%20ime?source" contains illegal character #\" at position 36..
2015-05-17T02:29:36Z aeth: oh a bot.
2015-05-17T02:30:22Z Xach: ugh
2015-05-17T02:31:19Z aeth: IRC bots could fool me all day. If you want to pass a turing test, hire me as a judge.
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2015-05-17T02:44:13Z drmeister: aeth: At least it doesn't have a sexy woman's name.  I've embarrassed myself a couple of times. :-)
2015-05-17T02:45:36Z drmeister: By being extra polite - I mean.
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2015-05-17T02:47:22Z Quadrescence: folks from WA state: there's a lisp meetup on tuesday
2015-05-17T02:47:51Z theos: minion: are you a bot?
2015-05-17T02:47:51Z minion: i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''.
2015-05-17T02:47:57Z theos: :D
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2015-05-17T03:04:02Z katco: if i have an adjustable vector with a fill-pointer, how do i concatenate another vector into it (destructive) without creating a new vector?
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2015-05-17T03:06:45Z Quadrescence: katco, Copy it in manually
2015-05-17T03:07:09Z katco: Quadrescence: aw bummer. there's no destructive concatenate or anything?
2015-05-17T03:08:14Z Quadrescence: katco, (defun concat (adjvec vec) (map nil (lambda (x) (vector-push-extend x adjvec)) vec) adjvec)
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2015-05-17T03:08:56Z katco: Quadrescence: yeah thanks. i used loop
2015-05-17T03:10:08Z Quadrescence: katco, For lists, there's a "destructive concatenate" which is NCONC.
2015-05-17T03:10:17Z Quadrescence: Not such for adjustable vectors.
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2015-05-17T03:10:32Z katco: Quadrescence: hm ok. ty
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2015-05-17T04:32:53Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-05-17T04:32:53Z minion: beach, memo from Shinmera: I wrote a short article about my ideas for the document processing model that we talked about.. last winter, I believe. https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/320
2015-05-17T04:32:53Z minion: beach, memo from drmeister: Could we talk about inlining, compiler macros, binary functions for arithmetic and type inference in Cleavir?  I'd like to start thinking about how I'm going to take advantage of all this now that I have immediate's and tagged pointers.
2015-05-17T04:33:29Z beach: minion: memo for Shinmera: Great!  Reading it now.
2015-05-17T04:33:29Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Shinmera when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-05-17T04:33:41Z beach: drmeister: Sure.  Whenever you like.
2015-05-17T04:34:02Z Oladon: beach: Aren't you popular :)
2015-05-17T04:34:31Z beach: Oladon: More like a PITA.
2015-05-17T04:34:57Z Oladon: beach: heh
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2015-05-17T04:37:20Z drmeister: Hey beach
2015-05-17T04:37:47Z drmeister: Yeah, busy, busy, busy.
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2015-05-17T04:45:01Z drmeister: beach: I also wanted to ask about bootstrapping clos - I think you are working on that.
2015-05-17T04:45:36Z beach: I am, yes.
2015-05-17T04:46:00Z beach: It is working very well.  And I am having a lot of fun.
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2015-05-17T04:46:14Z drmeister: I made some changes to Clasp and fixed EVAL so that it compiles forms before it runs then (rather than interpreting them).  Now the startup time for Clasp is about 20 seconds because when it initializes all of the CLOS classes it takes about 19 seconds to compile all of the forms that ECL CLOS generates when you create classes.
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2015-05-17T04:47:19Z beach: What compiler is used to compile those forms?
2015-05-17T04:47:21Z drmeister: Somehow ECL avoids this at startup.
2015-05-17T04:47:56Z drmeister: Right now it's the bootstrapping compiler - but Cleavir would do it when I use it.
2015-05-17T04:48:10Z beach: OK.
2015-05-17T04:48:44Z beach: I am asking because I have not thought about compilation time at all in the Cleavir compiler.
2015-05-17T04:48:55Z drmeister: It's all just code that should be generated at compile time.  For some reason ECL uses EVAL to compile accessors and method combinations (I believe).
2015-05-17T04:49:07Z drmeister: Yeah, it would be an issue.
2015-05-17T04:49:32Z beach: It is common to use the compiler or EVAL in parts of CLOS.
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2015-05-17T04:50:16Z drmeister: So if that is the case then its forcing compilation at runtime - correct?
2015-05-17T04:50:32Z beach: Yes.
2015-05-17T04:50:53Z drmeister: Somehow ECL avoids this - or their compiler is really fast.
2015-05-17T04:51:12Z drmeister: I'm waiting to talk to jackdaniel about it.
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2015-05-17T04:51:28Z beach: You probably won't see it at normal runtime.
2015-05-17T04:51:53Z beach: Because then it would be compiling an accessor from time to time when some class changes or when a method is added or removed.
2015-05-17T04:52:02Z drmeister: I'm seeing it at load-time.
2015-05-17T04:52:17Z drmeister: It creates about 90 classes and it takes about 19 seconds.
2015-05-17T04:52:23Z beach: I am guessing that you see it at startup time because it is doing everything at once then.
2015-05-17T04:52:36Z drmeister: Yes.
2015-05-17T04:54:05Z drmeister: It seems to me that I should be able to generate the code for these accessors at compile time and build them into image.  But since it calls EVAL, that thwarts me.
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2015-05-17T04:56:49Z drmeister: Could you give me a quick primer on generating code for simple arithmetic?
2015-05-17T04:57:05Z beach: Sure.
2015-05-17T04:57:21Z drmeister: compiler macros, binary addition function, condition to test argument types, type inference, inlining - I have a rough sketch.
2015-05-17T04:57:35Z beach: Do you want to ask question, or do you prefer that I just do the talking?
2015-05-17T04:57:56Z drmeister: How about you do the talking.
2015-05-17T04:58:15Z beach: OK.
2015-05-17T04:58:48Z beach: If you have an N-ary function like + or -, you write a compiler macro to turn it into a bunch of calls to a binary function.
2015-05-17T04:59:29Z beach: That's the only purpose of the compiler macro.
2015-05-17T05:00:01Z beach: Now you must write code for the binary function.  Let's take binary addition as an example.
2015-05-17T05:00:04Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/zjigZhGn
2015-05-17T05:00:31Z drmeister: (macroexpand '(my+ 1 2 3)) -->(BINARY+ 1 (BINARY+ 2 3))
2015-05-17T05:01:04Z beach: You still need the compiler macro, but yes.
2015-05-17T05:01:19Z drmeister: It's a macro just for testing.
2015-05-17T05:01:42Z drmeister: I just need to define it with DEFINE-COMPILER-MACRO - right?
2015-05-17T05:01:50Z beach: Right.
2015-05-17T05:01:54Z drmeister: Got it.
2015-05-17T05:01:57Z beach: You then write the BINARY+ function so that it does a complete case analysis on the types of its arguments.
2015-05-17T05:01:59Z drmeister: O, the binary addition.
2015-05-17T05:02:01Z drmeister: Ok
2015-05-17T05:02:35Z beach: That type analysis will depend on the exact float types of your system, of course.
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2015-05-17T05:02:57Z drmeister: Yes
2015-05-17T05:03:09Z beach: If both arguments are fixnums, then you use CLEAVIR primiop fixnum-add.
2015-05-17T05:03:32Z beach: If they are both the same floats, you use Cleavir unbox, add, box.
2015-05-17T05:04:17Z beach: You might have a default case where you call some other function of yours.  You can use this for unlikely cases or where the performance is not important.
2015-05-17T05:04:46Z emaczen: Can you use slime for cocoa development instead of the CCL ide?
2015-05-17T05:04:47Z beach: For instance, adding a ratio to a float is going to take time anyway.  Might as well do it in a function.
2015-05-17T05:05:26Z beach: drmeister: When you compile that BINARY+ function, you must save the AST with the function.
2015-05-17T05:06:25Z beach: drmeister: And when you compile some code that asks for FUNCTION-INFO about binary+, you supply :INLINE and the AST.
2015-05-17T05:06:46Z beach: Then Cleavir will inline the BINARY+ function for you.
2015-05-17T05:07:28Z drmeister: So - like this?
2015-05-17T05:07:36Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/tiHmPM4w
2015-05-17T05:08:00Z beach: Right.
2015-05-17T05:08:51Z beach: Then, if Cleavir has some information on the types of the arguments, either because of some declarations, because you have used CHECK-TYPE, or perhaps (ASSERT (TYPEP ...)) or something like that, then those tests will disappear because of the type inferencer.
2015-05-17T05:09:23Z drmeister: And the fixnum-add-instruction has two successors. So where do I generate the code for the overflow case?
2015-05-17T05:09:26Z beach: ... and dead code will be removed.
2015-05-17T05:10:11Z beach: In the overflow case, you would probably call another function to convert the fixnum to a bignum.   Since that is going to take time anyway, you might as well call a function to do it.
2015-05-17T05:10:57Z beach: So your code will not look like (fixnum-add ....)
2015-05-17T05:11:28Z beach: And right now I forget exactly how the source code must look for the correct AST to be generated.
2015-05-17T05:11:45Z drmeister: Is there an example?
2015-05-17T05:12:09Z beach: Probably not.  But it is documented somewhere.
2015-05-17T05:12:29Z beach: I think maybe the fixnum-add must be in an IF-AST.
2015-05-17T05:12:45Z beach: No, wait, the fixnum-ast already has two successors.
2015-05-17T05:13:04Z beach: Too early in the morning.
2015-05-17T05:13:05Z drmeister: AST nodes have successors?  I thought that was just instructions.
2015-05-17T05:13:12Z beach: ASTs don't have successors.
2015-05-17T05:13:15Z beach: They have children.
2015-05-17T05:13:23Z drmeister: Right.
2015-05-17T05:14:33Z beach: I think the fixnum-add AST must be in the condition of an IF AST.
2015-05-17T05:14:39Z beach: But I don't remember right now.
2015-05-17T05:15:36Z drmeister: It's ok, that's a good start.   I'll dig around some and come up with some better questions.
2015-05-17T05:15:38Z beach: Right.
2015-05-17T05:15:45Z beach: Check fixnum-related-asts.lisp
2015-05-17T05:16:03Z beach: "It can only occur as the test of an IF-AST"
2015-05-17T05:16:41Z drmeister: Ok.  I'm going to head to bed.  I'll check the logs if you have any other pointers.  Thanks!
2015-05-17T05:17:00Z beach: I think what we have said will give you plenty of work.
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2015-05-17T05:21:41Z akkad: anything special required for quicklisp to pick up a cl project under ~/quicklisp/local-projects ?
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2015-05-17T05:22:22Z Bike: nope
2015-05-17T05:22:44Z Bike: have a folder with the project name, and then project name.asd in that folder, and it should be fine.
2015-05-17T05:22:56Z akkad: yeap
2015-05-17T05:23:18Z akkad: ~/quicklisp/local-projects/cl-scrypt/cl-scrypt.asd exists.
2015-05-17T05:23:49Z akkad: ql not finding it however
2015-05-17T05:24:12Z akkad: ahh had to remove system-index.txt
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2015-05-17T06:11:16Z |zzy: Hi
2015-05-17T06:12:00Z pjb: minion memo for haom: you would just have to define a dispatching reader macro for #\# #\\ to be able to implement conformingly reading any character name you want.
2015-05-17T06:13:02Z pjb: minion memo for haom: You can specifically override the standard dispatching reader macro #\# #\\, there's no need to use a new one such as #\# #\~.
2015-05-17T06:13:22Z beach: pjb: `:' after `minion'
2015-05-17T06:13:30Z pjb: damn
2015-05-17T06:13:34Z pjb: minion: memo for haom: you would just have to define a dispatching reader macro for #\# #\\ to be able to implement conformingly reading any character name you want.
2015-05-17T06:13:34Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell haom when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-05-17T06:13:37Z pjb: minion: memo for haom: You can specifically override the standard dispatching reader macro #\# #\\, there's no need to use a new one such as #\# #\~.
2015-05-17T06:13:37Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell haom when he/she/it next speaks.
2015-05-17T06:13:40Z pjb: beach: thanks.
2015-05-17T06:13:41Z beach: Hello |zzy.
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2015-05-17T06:31:16Z pjb: minion: memo for emaczen: yes. you can establish your own bindings in hemlock: it is an emacs!
2015-05-17T06:31:16Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell emaczen when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-05-17T06:40:17Z pjb: diginet: basically, you have the choice of saying: "lisp is not good for anything", or "lisp is good [for something other languages are not good]".  Writing DSL is one thing other languages are not good. Functional programming was true before ML.  AI was true before statistical AI. etc.
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2015-05-17T06:55:11Z Shinmera: akkad: If your ASDs are in deeper directories than a single level from local-projects, use ql:register-local-projects to force rescanning the entire structure. Removing the system-index.txt does the same essentially, but is probably less convenient.
2015-05-17T06:55:11Z minion: Shinmera, memo from beach: Great!  Reading it now.
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2015-05-17T07:28:03Z TSMI: Have any lisp implementations based their VMs off of the architecture of old lisp machines?
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2015-05-17T07:29:40Z akkad: Symbolics VLM
2015-05-17T07:29:44Z akkad: Genera
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2015-05-17T07:31:59Z akkad: b
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2015-05-17T07:35:06Z H4ns: TSMI: the old lisp machines were stack machines, and for example the clisp vm is a stack machine as well.  that does not make the clisp vm be "based off" the lisp machine architecture, though.  what is your question really?
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2015-05-17T07:35:11Z TSMI: Ah right I am not really making an objective comparison - a vm for HLL architecture is a very different beast
2015-05-17T07:36:19Z p_l: akkad: said machine could be technically said to run "bytecode interpreter" as well, at least from a certain POV ;)
2015-05-17T07:36:47Z TSMI: H4ns: was mainly wondering about LISP vms and if the actuak silicone machines were an influence
2015-05-17T07:37:53Z H4ns: TSMI: the VLM is a direct software implementation of the symbolics lisp machine, but i think it is rather unique in that respect.
2015-05-17T07:38:52Z TSMI: Yeah I had a brief look into it
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2015-05-17T07:43:58Z p_l: TSMI: have you read the paper about VLM? Quite interesting read (and argumentation)
2015-05-17T07:44:33Z TSMI: No, but Im always keen for reading material about this stuff
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2015-05-17T07:45:21Z TSMI: http://pt.withy.org/publications/VLM.html this one?
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2015-05-17T07:45:43Z p_l: also, if you gain a copy of VLM, and preferably IDA or similar class disassembler with support for Alpha, give it a spin on VLM binary
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2015-05-17T07:46:17Z p_l: yes
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2015-05-17T07:50:52Z beach: TSMI: Out of curiosity, what are you planning to do with the information in this reading material?
2015-05-17T07:52:00Z akkad: is there a way to turn off echo to terminal on read-line?
2015-05-17T07:52:10Z beach: TSMI: I am asking because many modern Common Lisp implementations do not have a virtual machine in this sense.  They compile directly to native machine code.
2015-05-17T07:53:45Z TSMI: beach: mainly try and mine it for ideas/knowledge. I am finding it hard to get information about virtual machines, and lisp ones interest me especially
2015-05-17T07:54:00Z beach: TSMI: OK.  Good luck!
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2015-05-17T07:54:33Z TSMI: Also, wont those lisps that compile to assembly go through an intermediate code stage they feed to an interpreter for use in a repl?
2015-05-17T07:55:06Z Shinmera: You don't need an interpreter at all.
2015-05-17T07:55:21Z beach: TSMI: Usually, they compile forms on the fly as they are typed.
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2015-05-17T08:00:24Z p_l: TSMI: SBCL doesn't have such interpretable intermediate stage, and its evaluator was infamously not supported for a long time
2015-05-17T08:01:23Z TSMI: Wow. I have p!ayed around with sbcl and it wad quite responsive, the only other language/environment I knew did that was atrociously sluggish as an interpreter
2015-05-17T08:01:44Z ggole: TSMI: compiler IRs and interpretable structures are usually designed quite differently
2015-05-17T08:02:45Z beach: TSMI: Compiling a smallish form on the fly is quite fast these days.
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2015-05-17T08:04:43Z beach: TSMI: The only real point in having an interpreter (as far as I can see) is that macros can be expanded each time the form is interpreted.
2015-05-17T08:05:29Z TSMI: ggole, how so?
2015-05-17T08:05:38Z Shinmera: SBCL's compiler is also quite heavy-weight, so using the interpreter is faster for small snippets.
2015-05-17T08:05:46Z TSMI: beach, Ill look into the sbcl implementation
2015-05-17T08:06:19Z ggole: An IR doesn't have to worry about decoding or dispatch
2015-05-17T08:06:38Z ggole: It can include all sorts of pointers to interesting information without killing the performance of the (nonexistent) interpreter
2015-05-17T08:07:02Z ggole: Bytecodes tend to be quite redundant to reduce dispatch costs, too
2015-05-17T08:07:08Z ggole: There's no point in doing this in an IR
2015-05-17T08:08:33Z ggole: An IR also benefits from keeping control graph information like loop nesting, (post-) dominator tree, etc
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2015-05-17T08:19:55Z TSMI:  /"/s
2015-05-17T08:21:33Z TSMI: ggole, you mean since a bytecode usually relies on a big switch statement it tends ti be much more minimal/redundant?
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2015-05-17T08:23:00Z ggole: No, I mean that interpreters tend to add specialised bytecodes to do the same job that short sequences of other bytecodes could do, purely to reduce dispatch (and I suppose, code size) costs
2015-05-17T08:23:40Z p_l: TSMI: also IR can keep very useful information like "this is a loop"
2015-05-17T08:24:29Z TSMI: ,
2015-05-17T08:25:21Z TSMI: I think I follow
2015-05-17T08:27:14Z kephra: Shinmera, you dont need an interpreter at all reminds me at early Kyoto Lisp and ST/X - both started as compiler to C
2015-05-17T08:27:23Z kephra: both implemented an interpreter later
2015-05-17T08:28:21Z p_l: and SBCL compiler is infamously heavyweight ;-)
2015-05-17T08:28:37Z kephra: for GCL, the Kyoto heritage still slows down things horrible, if it comes more dynamic Lisp like CLOS
2015-05-17T08:28:43Z beach: kephra: So we can conclude that compiling to C requires an interpreter later.  That's why it is a bad idea to compile to C.
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2015-05-17T08:30:05Z kephra: beach, depends - e.g. ST/X is really sweet: you can mark classes, methods for compiling, decide for target platform, and get an interpreter + bytecode for the selected objects
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2015-05-17T08:30:44Z p_l: ST/X?
2015-05-17T08:30:55Z kephra: ST/X = Smalltalk/X
2015-05-17T08:31:01Z p_l: mhm
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2015-05-17T08:31:57Z beach: kephra: Wow, and this feature depends on compiling to C as opposed to compiling to native code?  How does that work?
2015-05-17T08:32:37Z kephra: ST/X started with a Smalltalk to C compiler, written in Smalltalk
2015-05-17T08:32:59Z kephra: Kyoto Lisp started with a Lisp to C compiler in Lisp
2015-05-17T08:33:47Z kephra: both allows to port your Smalltalk or Lisp to any platform that offers a C (cross compiler)
2015-05-17T08:34:13Z TSMI: LLVM looks like a decent compromise
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2015-05-17T08:38:55Z beach: TSMI: I guess you got more information than you bargained for.
2015-05-17T08:40:10Z TSMI: beach: its good. I never considered a VM-less lisp
2015-05-17T08:40:35Z beach: That's what I was guessing.  And that's why I asked you about it.
2015-05-17T08:46:40Z TSMI: Compiling to C appeaks to me for many reasons. But then as pointed out, you need to go ahead and write an interpreter later
2015-05-17T08:47:47Z beach: TSMI: While it might sounds like a good idea, there are some interesting mismatches.  C is actually a bit too high level for that.
2015-05-17T08:48:24Z beach: TSMI: For example, if you want tail-call optimization, then your C code will have a very strange structure.
2015-05-17T08:49:07Z beach: TSMI: Alternatively, it is possible to exploit the fact that many C compilers do something predictable with non-conforming C code.
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2015-05-17T08:50:17Z TSMI: Well I wouldnt expect C produced by a compiler to be idiomatic
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2015-05-17T08:50:31Z beach: Right.
2015-05-17T08:50:53Z beach: But it also impacts performance.
2015-05-17T08:52:00Z beach: For tail-call optimization, you need for each function to return before some other function is called, so you can't use the normal argument-passing mechanism.
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2015-05-17T08:52:47Z TSMI: You can use a stack datastructure. But yeah possibly slow
2015-05-17T08:53:48Z beach: Yes, there are a number of possible tricks, but they all make it less appealing to use C as a backend.
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2015-05-17T08:53:59Z beach: I think the language C-- was invented for this reason.
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2015-05-17T08:54:51Z beach: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C--
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2015-05-17T09:00:03Z beach: But you are right.  Nowadays there is LLVM instead.
2015-05-17T09:00:14Z jackdaniel: gcc at least has flag for tail call optimization
2015-05-17T09:00:44Z beach: jackdaniel: I believe it only works in certain circumstances.  This is from memory.  It could have changed since.
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2015-05-17T09:01:13Z ggole: gcc only provides TCE for "sibling calls", and only for some classes of function
2015-05-17T09:01:24Z beach: ggole: Thanks!
2015-05-17T09:01:44Z jackdaniel: other thing is that you may first compile lisp to lisp, and then to c
2015-05-17T09:01:45Z ggole: It's nice that gcc does it, but it can't be relied on
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2015-05-17T09:02:26Z jackdaniel: so you replace recursion with iteration
2015-05-17T09:02:29Z ggole: (I believe the cases that it can't handle are things like taking the address of a stack-allocated object to pass to the tail-callee.)
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2015-05-17T09:02:51Z ggole: Iteration doesn't work when the tail-callee is an argument
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2015-05-17T09:06:23Z kephra: you need to compile into a trampoline code of continuations *ouch*
2015-05-17T09:08:11Z jackdaniel: do you have any good article preposition so I can understand tco better?
2015-05-17T09:08:12Z ggole: There are other approaches, like the Cheney trick
2015-05-17T09:08:40Z ggole: But of course you can't simply do it directly like you can with your own code generation.
2015-05-17T09:08:41Z jackdaniel: s/pre/pro/
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2015-05-17T09:30:11Z beach: jackdaniel: There is not much to understand.  For some function F to make a tail call to a function G, F must first remove any part of the environment that the caller passed it.  In particular the arguments passed to F.
2015-05-17T09:31:12Z beach: jackdaniel: In C, the caller established the arguments, and removes them after the call.  In that case F doesn't have the information required to remove the arguments, such as the exact number of arguments that were passed.
2015-05-17T09:32:50Z jackdaniel: mhm, thanks
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2015-05-17T09:36:24Z jackdaniel: so as I understand, it's easy to implement tail call when recurrency is involved, but if called function has different arguments it's hard
2015-05-17T09:36:35Z jackdaniel: ?
2015-05-17T09:36:56Z ggole: It has more to do with a quirk of C's parameter passing semantics
2015-05-17T09:37:13Z beach: Sure.  More generally, if the caller and the callee are compiled together, then it is easier.
2015-05-17T09:37:34Z beach: But as ggole says, it is still messy.
2015-05-17T09:38:12Z ggole: C ABIs were historically designed such that a call with the wrong number of arguments (!) would not trash the stack
2015-05-17T09:38:15Z beach: For instance on x86, the caller of F (call it H) has a return address to ITS caller.  This return address must be found and preserved.
2015-05-17T09:38:47Z ggole: Instead the callee would ignore any extra arguments, and the caller would clean them (it knows how many there are)
2015-05-17T09:39:10Z ggole: This was more desirable in the days when C did not require function prototypes
2015-05-17T09:39:37Z beach: Ah, backward compatibility.
2015-05-17T09:39:39Z ggole: It also plays nice with variadic functions
2015-05-17T09:40:07Z ggole: However, caller-teardown ABIs don't work well with tail recursion
2015-05-17T09:40:24Z beach: Yes, and this is also the reason why C traditionally pushes the arguments in reverse order, so that the first one can be found and examined to determine how many others there are.  Cf printf.
2015-05-17T09:41:04Z p_l: what about chicken scheme?
2015-05-17T09:41:13Z beach: What about it?
2015-05-17T09:41:51Z ggole: Modern ABIs make some changes, eg, the x86-64 ABI allows passing the number of xmm regs used as arguments to variadic functions (which can then operate without these arguments being on the stack)
2015-05-17T09:42:34Z p_l: it uses a never-returning c function call, always passing a continuation, and uses stack overflow as gc signal
2015-05-17T09:42:54Z p_l: anyway, have to go - takeoff soon :-)
2015-05-17T09:42:54Z ggole: Right, that's the "Cheney trick" I mentioned
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2015-05-17T09:42:59Z ggole: I believe it works with any ABI
2015-05-17T09:43:14Z ChanServ has set mode -o p_l
2015-05-17T09:43:42Z ggole: (And it's clever as hell.)
2015-05-17T09:44:51Z ggole: jackdaniel: in short, there's no great difficulty if you are in charge of the ABI
2015-05-17T09:45:04Z ggole: But existing ABIs cause trouble
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2015-05-17T09:45:34Z jackdaniel: ggole: yes, but ECL has to easily interoperate with C
2015-05-17T09:45:45Z jackdaniel: so I'm tied to it
2015-05-17T09:46:12Z beach: jackdaniel: No.  You use a different call protocol when crossing the language barrier.
2015-05-17T09:48:19Z jackdaniel: hm, I'm not sure what do you mean - ECL generates C code, which is then compiled
2015-05-17T09:49:19Z beach: jackdaniel: So we are back to the original discussion where generated C code does not have to be idiomatic and you can play the tricks mentioned.
2015-05-17T09:49:43Z jackdaniel: yes
2015-05-17T09:50:04Z jackdaniel: I have to go, thanks for explaining stuff ggole and beach
2015-05-17T09:50:11Z jackdaniel: I'll surely reread it later
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2015-05-17T11:08:35Z hitecnologys: adlai: well, we'll have to see that, but I in case it is inefficient, I can always rewrite it to something that uses better data structure.
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2015-05-17T12:39:58Z afleck: is an if statement the best way to get a macro to expand with different symbol names based on an arg?
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2015-05-17T12:41:33Z afleck: or if my symbol names are similar, say sym-foo and sym-too, can I pass an arg as t or f to get it to expand right?
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2015-05-17T12:42:51Z Xach: afleck: symbols aren't too special. it's a little like returning similar numbers.
2015-05-17T12:42:59Z Xach: afleck: whatever control flow or conditional works is fine.
2015-05-17T12:43:17Z Xach: you can get a symbol from a name with find-symbol, intern, and other functions.
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2015-05-17T12:48:40Z afleck: ah, alright. thanks
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2015-05-17T13:34:13Z jackdaniel: if I want to auto-load my utilities on each start, i have to load asd file in each implementation rc file, right?
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2015-05-17T14:24:08Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
2015-05-17T14:24:31Z jackdaniel: o/
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2015-05-17T14:25:27Z wbooze: afternoon beach!
2015-05-17T14:30:39Z jackdaniel: how would skilled lisper find a minimal element like it had a key argument? ie longest list
2015-05-17T14:31:10Z jackdaniel: (min :key #'length list1 list2 ...)
2015-05-17T14:31:28Z beach: Not sure what you mean.
2015-05-17T14:31:40Z beach: Oh, wait I think I see.
2015-05-17T14:31:54Z jackdaniel: find a list of minimal number of elements in this particular example
2015-05-17T14:32:00Z beach: Right.
2015-05-17T14:32:26Z jackdaniel: i can sort them and pick first one, but
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2015-05-17T14:32:34Z beach: Nah.
2015-05-17T14:32:44Z beach: Loop and keep the smallest in each iteration.
2015-05-17T14:33:10Z jackdaniel: yeah, I've wrapped solutions with do
2015-05-17T14:33:22Z jackdaniel: tought there is some nice abberv for that tough
2015-05-17T14:33:42Z scymtym: jackdaniel: (alexandria:extremum '((1) (2 2) (3 3 3)) #'< :key #'length) => (1)
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2015-05-17T14:34:14Z jackdaniel: scymtym: o, that looks like what I was looking for, thanks!
2015-05-17T14:38:45Z afleck: length is slow for comparing longer lists
2015-05-17T14:39:23Z afleck: traversing both at the same time and then stopping when one ends is faster
2015-05-17T14:39:54Z jackdaniel: afleck: but if you compare big number of lists? - it was just an example
2015-05-17T14:40:16Z jackdaniel: but I think traversing each list one time might be profitable over traversing each list partially many times
2015-05-17T14:40:26Z jackdaniel: especially when they have comparable lengths
2015-05-17T14:40:55Z afleck: jackdaniel: good point
2015-05-17T14:41:14Z jackdaniel: thanks :)
2015-05-17T14:41:28Z beach: There is a chance that alexandria calls LENGTH twice on each list.  You might want to check that if you are concerned with performance.
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2015-05-17T14:41:50Z beach: Or, I should say twice the number of lists you pass it.
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2015-05-17T14:42:29Z ggole_: That would be a pretty poor implementation
2015-05-17T14:42:55Z beach: It might assume that the KEY function is trivial.
2015-05-17T14:42:59Z beach: like an accessor.
2015-05-17T14:43:31Z ggole_: For some functions, there's a tradeoff
2015-05-17T14:43:59Z ggole_: You have to choose between storing a value for the key transformed element or applying the transform multiple times
2015-05-17T14:44:06Z ggole_: But an accumulation function like that isn't one of those
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2015-05-17T14:44:49Z wbooze: (apply #'min (map 'list #'length (list (list 1 2) (list 1 2 3) (list 1 2 3 4))))
2015-05-17T14:45:31Z jackdaniel: wbooze: how do I acquire original list for this?
2015-05-17T14:46:00Z jackdaniel: I don't want to have length of shortest, I want a shortest
2015-05-17T14:46:14Z wbooze: jackdaniel: the original list is (list (list 1 2) (list 1 2 3) (list 1 2 3 4))
2015-05-17T14:46:40Z wbooze: ah
2015-05-17T14:48:25Z ggole_: (reduce #'min seq :key #'length)?
2015-05-17T14:48:54Z beach: Same problem.
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2015-05-17T14:49:08Z jackdaniel: beach: it doesn't call it twice on each list, but it computes candidate multiple times
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2015-05-17T14:49:24Z beach: jackdaniel: Hmm.  OK.
2015-05-17T14:49:46Z jackdaniel: so there is space for improvement, unless caching values is undesireable
2015-05-17T14:49:55Z jackdaniel: s/values/results/
2015-05-17T14:50:20Z jackdaniel: but function is handy indeed :)
2015-05-17T14:51:16Z drmeister: Hey folks, I'm trying to figure out how ECL avoids creating CLOS classes at startup.
2015-05-17T14:51:41Z drmeister: When ECL compiles itself - does it generate a bunch of C files and then compile those to libecl.so?
2015-05-17T14:52:58Z drmeister: I'm asking because ECL constructs classes at compile time and during the construction invokes EVAL to compile accessors.  I can't figure out how the accessors, compiled using EVAL at compile time are made available at load-time.
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2015-05-17T14:53:17Z drmeister: Or if something else is going on that I'm not aware of.
2015-05-17T14:54:14Z drmeister: Imagine compile-file'ing this:   (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (setf (fdefinition foo) (eval '(lambda () (print "Foo")))))
2015-05-17T14:54:39Z drmeister: The compiled code for FOO is only available at compile time as far as I can see.
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2015-05-17T14:56:33Z wbooze: jackdaniel: (let ((my-list (list (list 1 2) (list 1 2 3) (list 1 2 3 4))))
2015-05-17T14:56:40Z wbooze: ups
2015-05-17T14:56:44Z wbooze: (let ((my-list (list (list 1 2) (list 1 2 3) (list 1 2 3 4))))
2015-05-17T14:57:14Z wbooze: (loop for x in my-list
2015-05-17T14:57:22Z wbooze: hmmm
2015-05-17T14:57:31Z drmeister: Sorry:  (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (setf (fdefinition 'foo) (eval '(lambda () (print "Foo")))))
2015-05-17T14:57:44Z wbooze: do (if (eq (length x) (apply 'min (map 'list #'length my-list))) (print x))))
2015-05-17T14:59:15Z wbooze: use (return x) instead of (print x) if you want to return the value instead of printing it
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2015-05-17T15:02:45Z drmeister: jackdaniel: What happens at startup when you start ECL?  How do function slots of symbols get set?
2015-05-17T15:03:44Z drmeister: Clasp does it by evaluating every top level form in the Common Lisp code.
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2015-05-17T15:04:32Z drmeister: It's like load evaluates forms but in this case the forms are all compiled already
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2015-05-17T15:07:57Z drmeister: I thought ECL did the same but I'm starting to suspect that libecl.so is something else.
2015-05-17T15:08:07Z Bike: well, you got what the eval-when does right.
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2015-05-17T15:16:49Z drmeister: Yeah - so it's a puzzle to me how ECL does it.
2015-05-17T15:17:14Z drmeister: Does ECL bundle up all the C code it generates during the build along with a SYMBOL table and write it out to a .so file?
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2015-05-17T15:17:55Z wbooze: (LET ((MY-LIST (LIST (LIST 1 2) (LIST 1 2 3) (LIST 1 2 3 4))) RESULT) (mapcar (lambda (x) (if (eq (length x) (apply #'min (map 'list 'length my-list))) (push x result))) my-list) (first result))
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2015-05-17T15:18:34Z jackdaniel: I *think* that it builds ecl_min, which is lisp-to-c translator, and everything you load to it during compilation is part of resulting .so
2015-05-17T15:18:43Z wbooze: the same, via mapping stead
2015-05-17T15:19:19Z jackdaniel: wbooze: it's not a problem to wrap your own function, I was wondering if someone did that, so I don't have to reinvent a wheel
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2015-05-17T15:28:29Z wbooze: there are so many patterns.....
2015-05-17T15:28:51Z wbooze: you'll hardly miss stuff that's not already invented.....
2015-05-17T15:30:19Z jackdaniel: yes, but simple question here isn't much effort - that's how collective knowledge works
2015-05-17T15:30:24Z wbooze: the question is, are those ok for you, i.e. criteria (brevity, elegancy, effectivity....)
2015-05-17T15:31:16Z wbooze: genericity (or portability etc..)
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2015-05-17T16:08:19Z Petit_Dejeuner: in '`x the quasiquote is able to expand because it's evaluated at readtime?
2015-05-17T16:09:26Z Bike: not really "expand", but yeah basically
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2015-05-17T16:52:14Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner: it is not evaluated at read time, it is READ at read time.
2015-05-17T16:52:43Z Petit_Dejeuner: ah, that makes more sense
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2015-05-17T18:34:32Z failproofshark: hello
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2015-05-17T18:58:59Z Th30n: hi
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2015-05-17T19:09:26Z jackdaniel: hi
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2015-05-17T19:20:17Z nydel: i'm trying to write a predicate to determine whether a string can be sent to #'read-from-string without error, get that feeling like there's some obvious way to not have to do this that i'm not thinking of..
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2015-05-17T19:31:51Z Bike: nydel: ignore-errors, or an actual handler, maybe?
2015-05-17T19:32:16Z kristof: catching an error sounds better
2015-05-17T19:32:21Z kristof: and then returning false on an encountered error
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2015-05-17T19:40:07Z drmeister: A bitvector should be represented by an array of bits - correct?
2015-05-17T19:40:27Z Bike: a bitvector _is_ an array of bits
2015-05-17T19:40:37Z Bike: i mean, you can have it in memory however you want.
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2015-05-17T19:42:15Z ehu: drmeister: I'm not aware of any physical representation requirements either.
2015-05-17T19:42:56Z drmeister: I represent it as an array of characters and I index into the individual bits.  I'm thinking an array of words would be better?
2015-05-17T19:43:13Z Bike: probably, yeah.
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2015-05-17T19:53:09Z nydel: yeah i need to catch the error, i'm reading arguments as strings and one of them has to be a number or it's going to get passed to a mathematical function and cause an error there
2015-05-17T19:53:30Z nydel: blip blep blop
2015-05-17T19:57:49Z Bike: Are they integers?
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2015-05-17T20:25:47Z nydel: they are Bike
2015-05-17T20:26:04Z nydel: i mean it would be okay if they were floats but they won't be
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2015-05-17T20:29:23Z nydel: i'm parsing the chat output of an mmo dedicated server and this particular module is an in-game economy. right now if someone chatted /pay nydel $30F, the entire system would be hung up until i restarted it
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2015-05-17T20:32:04Z nydel: if ppcre had like regex-only-keep "[0-9|\\.]" target-string i'd be golden, but i don't see that.
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2015-05-17T20:38:44Z flip214: nydel: "regex-only-keep"? what do you mean by that?
2015-05-17T20:39:40Z nydel: flip214: doing regex-replace-all "everything that is not 0-9 or ." with ""
2015-05-17T20:40:03Z flip214: why not just scan-to-strings with #?rx"(\d+(?:\.\d*))" and then (read-from-string)?
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2015-05-17T20:40:32Z flip214: and that replacement should be possible via [^0-9.]
2015-05-17T20:40:59Z Shinmera: flip214: (cl-ppcre:regex-replace-all "(!?[0-9.])" "abc093sad.21" "") => "abcsad"
2015-05-17T20:40:59Z Bike: i mean, if they're integers you could use parse-integer.
2015-05-17T20:41:00Z nydel: ha. it is. thanks flip214.
2015-05-17T20:41:04Z Shinmera: *nydel
2015-05-17T20:41:32Z Shinmera: err actually what am I doing
2015-05-17T20:41:34Z flip214: Shinmera: he wants to *keep* the digits, only.
2015-05-17T20:41:34Z Shinmera is tired
2015-05-17T20:41:44Z flip214: which $TZ?
2015-05-17T20:41:45Z flip214: ;)
2015-05-17T20:41:46Z Shinmera: Yeah, I thought I was doing a negative lookahead thing.
2015-05-17T20:42:01Z Shinmera: Europe
2015-05-17T20:42:48Z flip214: ah, I've been there ... yesterday. and will be in a week. right now I'm at PDT.
2015-05-17T20:42:53Z flip214: ouch.
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2015-05-17T20:43:33Z Shinmera: nydel: (cl-ppcre:regex-replace-all "(?![0-9.])." "abc093sad.21" "") => "093.21"
2015-05-17T20:43:46Z Shinmera had the ?! the wrong way around and forgot the dot.
2015-05-17T20:44:58Z flip214: Shinmera: the right way is [^0-9.]+, forget the negative lookahead.
2015-05-17T20:45:23Z Shinmera: Right, I forgot the ^ in [] was a thing too.
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2015-05-17T20:48:05Z nydel: all righty, the predicate does that then checks if the modified string changes in length from the original or is empty. if neither thing then it's clear to go to read-from-string.
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2015-05-17T20:49:39Z nydel: thanks everyone
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2015-05-17T20:52:26Z nydel: ha, i accidentally just eliminated the possibility of someone doing /pay nydel -300.0
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2015-05-17T20:55:11Z digiorgi: in parenscript how can i evaluate something to real common lisp?
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2015-05-17T20:56:24Z flip214: nydel: why not parse-to-strings and then read-from-string from the match, if any? ain't that cleaner?
2015-05-17T20:56:43Z flip214: nydel: what happens if I say "pay nydel " ie. nothing? length won't change ;)
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2015-05-17T21:14:14Z nydel: but it will be empty :)
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2015-05-17T21:15:34Z nydel: i see what you mean though this whole thing could probably be cleaner, parsing chat to pass to functions can be a messy affair if you let it get away from you so i better be careful
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2015-05-17T21:27:03Z emaczen: What is the recommended tools for cocoa development? I'm playing around with the
2015-05-17T21:27:03Z minion: emaczen, memo from pjb: yes. you can establish your own bindings in hemlock: it is an emacs!
2015-05-17T21:27:03Z minion: emaczen, memo from pjb: yes.
2015-05-17T21:27:36Z emaczen: I'm playing around with the source code in /contrib/cocoa-ide/krueger
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2015-05-17T21:35:35Z emaczen: Or what else can I look/play with?
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2015-05-17T22:21:53Z therabidmachine: what's everyone working on lately?
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2015-05-17T22:42:01Z drmeister: What is the difference between a vector of characters and a string?
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2015-05-17T22:43:06Z p_l: drmeister: depends on one's support for unicode, possibly (at the very least)
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2015-05-17T22:43:50Z p_l: but I guess it can be one and the same
2015-05-17T22:44:53Z drmeister: Currently I have strings of one byte characters. I just implemented immediate characters so I can implement a string of 32 bit characters.
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2015-05-17T22:50:12Z drmeister: It's ok, I know what I need to do. I need a 32bit string that can have element-type 'character
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2015-05-17T22:58:02Z Xach: drmeister: a string is a vector of characters, but a vector is only a string if it's specialized
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2015-05-17T23:07:48Z drmeister: Xach: specialized how?
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2015-05-17T23:14:53Z Bike: on character or a subtype of character.
2015-05-17T23:16:23Z drmeister: Got it. My problem is currently my only string is a 1 byte
2015-05-17T23:16:31Z drmeister: Character string.
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2015-05-18T01:45:17Z katco: is there a format directive that will give me the count of the iteartion within ~{ ~}?
2015-05-18T01:49:52Z Zhivago: When you start caring about things like that, it's probably time to graduate from format magic.
2015-05-18T01:50:14Z katco: Zhivago: nah, i'm just trying to do a numbered list. very simple.
2015-05-18T01:50:53Z Zhivago: It might be even simpler with the amazing power of iteration and multiple calls to format. :)
2015-05-18T01:51:08Z katco: lol, 1 line vs. ~3?
2015-05-18T01:51:16Z katco: 1 very very short line?
2015-05-18T01:51:52Z katco: (format stream "~{~a!^!%~}" my-list)
2015-05-18T01:52:16Z Bike: (loop for i below (length x) do (format wherever "~d: ~a!^!" i x))?
2015-05-18T01:52:48Z Zhivago: Are you being charged by the line?
2015-05-18T01:52:51Z katco: just not as simple... i know howt o do it with a loop
2015-05-18T01:53:01Z katco: Zhivago: it is my preference, that's enough
2015-05-18T01:53:09Z Zhivago: if not, hire a mexican circus midget to beat the stupid out of you. :)
2015-05-18T01:53:44Z Bike: (format stream "~{~d ~a!^!%~}" (loop for i below (length my-list) collect i) my-list)
2015-05-18T01:54:14Z katco: so the answer is: there is no directive
2015-05-18T01:54:24Z Bike: nope
2015-05-18T01:54:27Z Zhivago: There's always ~/.
2015-05-18T01:54:30Z katco: Bike: ty
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2015-05-18T02:46:30Z flip214: katco: you can call a function via ~/name, and that can be a closure too
2015-05-18T02:46:41Z flip214: ah, sorry, just what Zhivago already said.
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2015-05-18T02:54:20Z Oladon: Hrm, how would I go about getting the names of the slot definitions returned by class-slots?
2015-05-18T02:55:27Z Oladon: I'm trying to determine if two objects (of different classes) have the same slot values (names will already be the same between the two)
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2015-05-18T03:03:07Z Bike: mop:slot-definition-name
2015-05-18T03:03:16Z Oladon: Ahh, perfect, thanks.
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2015-05-18T03:03:27Z Oladon: And that also explains why I couldn't find it in the CLHS permuted symbol index
2015-05-18T03:03:51Z Bike: class-slots wouldn't be in there either, sooooo
2015-05-18T03:04:23Z Oladon: Heh, good point... I hadn't even noticed :P
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2015-05-18T03:45:36Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-05-18T04:06:21Z PuercoPop: Oladon: you can use l1sp.org, it includes the mop in addition the the clhs (and more stuff)
2015-05-18T04:10:13Z Oladon: PuercoPop: cool, thanks
2015-05-18T04:10:16Z Oladon: Morning beach
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2015-05-18T06:26:46Z pjb: katco: ~n{ --> "Also, if a prefix parameter n is given, then there will be at most n repetitions of processing of str."  and see: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.lispworks.general/13288
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2015-05-18T07:55:12Z loke: Help!
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2015-05-18T07:55:47Z loke: I can never remember (and experimentation is not helping either). How on earth do I expand the value of an outer variable in a double-nested backquote?
2015-05-18T07:56:02Z pjb: with two commas.
2015-05-18T07:56:04Z jackdaniel: ,,var
2015-05-18T07:56:07Z jackdaniel: ↑
2015-05-18T07:56:24Z loke: Doesn't work
2015-05-18T07:56:25Z loke: waaaait
2015-05-18T07:56:44Z loke: Argh! It's SBCL that renders it weridly.
2015-05-18T07:56:44Z pjb: (let ((a 42)) `(let ((b 33)) `(list ,,a ,b))) --> (let ((b 33)) (list* 'list (list* 42 (list b))))
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2015-05-18T07:57:25Z pjb: My advice: don't use sbcl to develop. Use it only to compile the final product, if you need it run fast.
2015-05-18T07:57:30Z loke: Yeah, I just realised that. But SBCL prints my inner `((:foo . ,,bar)) as: `((:foo ,@"bar")) This is of course equivalent.
2015-05-18T07:57:36Z loke: But it tripped me off
2015-05-18T07:57:48Z loke: Thanks guys
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2015-05-18T08:02:39Z dim: pjb: what would you advice for development then? I would guess ccl but from you maybe clisp?
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2015-05-18T08:22:42Z loke: pjb: Why do you recommend against using SBCL for development?
2015-05-18T08:22:52Z loke: I find the extensive error message to be invaluable.
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2015-05-18T08:28:53Z loke: That said, mainting compatibility with at least two different implementations is always good.
2015-05-18T08:29:38Z jackdaniel: even better - writing portable code :p
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2015-05-18T08:31:39Z pjb: loke: yes, I often finds the tools in other implementations better for developments (debuggers, tracers, etc).  Actually, the deficiencies of sbcl were the primary motivation for the development of slime and sldb.
2015-05-18T08:32:24Z loke: Oh I see. I've been quite happy with SLDB and SBCL. I don't trace, although I do notice that SBCL has some support for it?
2015-05-18T08:32:50Z pjb: Yes, but try it without sldb.
2015-05-18T08:32:52Z loke: jackdaniel: Yes, I always strive to write portable code, but it's hard to do unless you target at least 2 different versions. I tend to target SBCL and ABCL
2015-05-18T08:33:00Z loke: pjb: I don't want to :-)
2015-05-18T08:33:07Z pjb: Right. Exactly my point.
2015-05-18T08:33:12Z loke: hah
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2015-05-18T08:34:11Z jackdaniel: loke: that's great. What I meant you can target even all available implementations writing non-portable code with hacks in #+my-best-whatever, what should be last resort imo
2015-05-18T08:35:12Z Cymew: How about some GSoC projects to lift SBCL debugging to the next level? Would that be doable?
2015-05-18T08:35:34Z pjb: Cymew: that could be not implementation specific.
2015-05-18T08:36:08Z Cymew: I see. I don't know much about GSoC rules, really.
2015-05-18T08:36:15Z |3b| wouldn't want to use any other implementations without sldb either though
2015-05-18T08:36:19Z pjb: You could aim to write some very nice lisp debugger, conformingly, or with very little implementation specific supported needed.
2015-05-18T08:36:38Z pjb: |3b|: clisp debugger (on interpreted code) is very nice.
2015-05-18T08:37:05Z jdz: i've moved away from clisp especially because of unusable (or confusing, i don't remember) debugger
2015-05-18T08:37:08Z |3b|: nice but not integrated into my editor
2015-05-18T08:37:16Z jdz: and now it's GPL
2015-05-18T08:37:16Z Shinmera: Getting the stack trace alone is not portable.
2015-05-18T08:37:30Z Shinmera: And a major pain in the ass on some implementations.
2015-05-18T08:38:04Z Shinmera: (cough clisp cough)
2015-05-18T08:38:52Z jackdaniel: jdz: being GPL means nothing unless you want to modify clisp
2015-05-18T08:38:58Z jackdaniel: it isn't library
2015-05-18T08:39:11Z jdz: jackdaniel: are you sure?
2015-05-18T08:39:37Z jackdaniel: yes, product of gpl software computation isn't gpl'ed
2015-05-18T08:39:40Z jdz: jackdaniel: the fact that clisp had to adopt GPL is very instructive, imo
2015-05-18T08:39:54Z jackdaniel: yes, it linked against readline, which were gpl
2015-05-18T08:39:59Z jackdaniel: but clisp isn't library
2015-05-18T08:40:02Z |3b|: jackdaniel: what are you considering "product"?
2015-05-18T08:40:07Z jackdaniel: ecl is lgpl, so you can safely link with it either
2015-05-18T08:40:30Z jackdaniel: |3b|: if I edit file with GPL editor (emacs for instance), my text isn't gpl'ed
2015-05-18T08:40:42Z |3b|: right, but you said clisp not emacs
2015-05-18T08:40:43Z jackdaniel: if I compile something with gpl compiler, my resulting program isn't gpled
2015-05-18T08:40:49Z jdz: jackdaniel: libreadline was also not require to run clisp
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2015-05-18T08:41:18Z |3b|: by "the resulting program" do you mean the GPLed binary that includes all od CLISP and links with readline?
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2015-05-18T08:41:41Z pjb: Shinmera: what's hard in (system::describe-frame *standard-output*  (SYSTEM::THE-FRAME)) ?
2015-05-18T08:41:41Z jdz: jackdaniel: if i write an application that depends on some functionality in clisp that is not present in any other lisp implementation, what would that mean?
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2015-05-18T08:41:53Z Shinmera: pjb: It's not inspectable.
2015-05-18T08:42:00Z pjb: Of course it is.
2015-05-18T08:42:01Z jackdaniel: code you run in clisp virtual machine isn't anyhow part of interpreter, thereof you're safe
2015-05-18T08:42:01Z jdz: damn, now i'm sorry i mentioned GPL :?
2015-05-18T08:42:03Z jdz: :/
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2015-05-18T08:42:44Z |3b|: jackdaniel: right, you can run non-gpl code on clisp, but you can't build non-gpl binaries using clisp (unless you run another compiler in clisp or something)
2015-05-18T08:42:49Z pjb: jdz: that's the reason why you want to write conforming code.
2015-05-18T08:43:06Z Shinmera: pjb: You need to use god damn regexes to tear apart the string if you want to get the information in any kind of nicely usable way.
2015-05-18T08:43:20Z jdz: pjb: yes, which i can do in any other implementation as well, at which point i choose to do just that
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2015-05-18T08:44:07Z jackdaniel: |3b|: does clisp support building binary? I'm not sure about that
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2015-05-18T08:44:18Z pjb: yes it does.
2015-05-18T08:44:21Z pjb: DUH
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2015-05-18T08:44:22Z |3b|: it dumps images same as most CL implementations
2015-05-18T08:44:27Z jackdaniel: ok
2015-05-18T08:44:48Z pjb: and it doesn't need to exit after having saved the image.
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2015-05-18T08:45:10Z jackdaniel: |3b|: then I have no sufficient knowledge to rise my opinion on last question
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2015-05-18T08:45:44Z |3b|: whether .fas files (or whatever clisp calls them) are GPL is a harder question to answer, since they probably contain expansion of presumably GPL macros
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2015-05-18T08:51:22Z Cymew: clisp really is getting lot of talk these days
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2015-05-18T08:53:08Z Cymew: pjb: Have there been a list of the deficiencies of the sbcl debugger? I thought that maybe presenting such a list to the sbcl devs it would be easier to get an evaluation of how they would be to fix.
2015-05-18T08:53:25Z Cymew: "how hard" that is
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2015-05-18T08:53:41Z pjb: I certainly did some comparison ten years ago.  Now there's slime, I'm not interested in devling more.
2015-05-18T08:53:48Z pjb: s/vl/lv/
2015-05-18T08:54:06Z Cymew: Makes sense I guess
2015-05-18T08:54:17Z |3b| suspects the stepper is the main thing that isn't just a question of UI
2015-05-18T08:54:29Z pjb: |3b|: I disaggree.
2015-05-18T08:54:38Z |3b|: if sbcl debugger is usable from sldb, the underlying support shoujld be there
2015-05-18T08:54:47Z pjb: indeed.
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2015-05-18T09:15:24Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for protoist: there is coffeeware, which is essentially the same but more pleasing to eye then license name we talked previously
2015-05-18T09:15:24Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell protoist when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-05-18T09:34:10Z schjetne: These joke licenses are starting to get old
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2015-05-18T09:37:26Z jackdaniel: jokes with beards? (:
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2015-05-18T09:38:40Z Posterdati: hi
2015-05-18T09:38:44Z theos: and canes
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2015-05-18T09:40:18Z Posterdati: I'm trying to use iolib on angstrom for beaglebone (ccl), but I've got this after installed libfixposix: http://paste.lisp.org/display/148350
2015-05-18T09:40:47Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2015-05-18T09:40:57Z p_l: angstrom still exists o_O
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2015-05-18T09:45:39Z Posterdati: no idea?
2015-05-18T09:46:08Z |3b|: did installing libfixposix install that .h file, or is it in a separate -dev package or whatever?
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2015-05-18T09:46:39Z Posterdati: I installed from original repository and it went to /usr/local/include
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2015-05-18T09:47:34Z ferada: Posterdati: if nothing else helps, you can modify cffi-grovel::*cc-flags* to manually include the folder
2015-05-18T09:48:51Z |3b|: yeah, something like that would be my guess too, or CFLAGS env var
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2015-05-18T09:49:56Z Posterdati: where?
2015-05-18T09:51:33Z Posterdati: CL-USER> cffi-grovel::*cc-flags*
2015-05-18T09:51:33Z Posterdati: NIL
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2015-05-18T09:52:25Z ferada: Posterdati: yeah, (pushnew "-I/usr/local/include/whatever" cffi-grovel::*cc-flags*) and try to compile again
2015-05-18T09:52:27Z pjb: i'd guess (push "-I/usr/local/include" cffi-grovel::*cc-flags*)
2015-05-18T09:52:47Z Posterdati: ok
2015-05-18T09:53:11Z pjb: add :test (function string=) if you want to use pushnew.
2015-05-18T09:54:24Z Posterdati: The value "-I /usr/local/include" is not of the expected type LIST.
2015-05-18T09:56:08Z zacharias_ is now known as zacharias
2015-05-18T09:57:12Z jackdaniel: Patzy: are you sure you did (push "xxx" cffi-grovel::*cc-flags*) not (push cffi-gr... "xxx") ?
2015-05-18T09:57:29Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: °
2015-05-18T09:57:54Z Posterdati: yes
2015-05-18T09:59:05Z Posterdati: same error
2015-05-18T09:59:22Z pjb: Posterdati: then use cl:push
2015-05-18T09:59:27Z Posterdati: CL-USER> cffi-grovel::*cc-flags*
2015-05-18T09:59:28Z Posterdati: ("-I/usr/local/include/")
2015-05-18T09:59:41Z pjb: good to go
2015-05-18T09:59:48Z Posterdati: same error
2015-05-18T10:00:20Z jackdaniel: then clear variable and try to push there '("-I/bla/bla")
2015-05-18T10:00:24Z ferada: Posterdati: are you sure lfp.h is in that folder?
2015-05-18T10:00:42Z Posterdati: http://paste.lisp.org/display/148350#1
2015-05-18T10:00:56Z Posterdati: root@beaglebone:~# ls /usr/local/include
2015-05-18T10:00:56Z Posterdati: lfp  lfp.h
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2015-05-18T10:02:33Z ferada: ah Posterdati try iolib-grovel::*cc-flags* instead
2015-05-18T10:02:58Z Posterdati: ah
2015-05-18T10:04:03Z Posterdati: iolib-grovel::*cc-flags*
2015-05-18T10:04:03Z Posterdati: ("-Wno-write-strings")
2015-05-18T10:04:04Z Posterdati: CL-USER> (pushnew "-I/usr/local/include/" iolib-grovel::*cc-flags* :test (function string=))
2015-05-18T10:04:04Z Posterdati: ("-I/usr/local/include/" "-Wno-write-strings")
2015-05-18T10:04:04Z Posterdati: CL-USER>
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2015-05-18T10:04:27Z Posterdati: seems to go
2015-05-18T10:04:30Z Posterdati: nice
2015-05-18T10:04:32Z Posterdati: thanks
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2015-05-18T10:05:27Z Posterdati: error on libfixposix, I hope I should add a -l switch too!
2015-05-18T10:07:26Z Posterdati: -L not workind
2015-05-18T10:07:28Z Posterdati: -L not working
2015-05-18T10:07:39Z Posterdati: in *cc-flags*
2015-05-18T10:07:54Z jackdaniel: doesn't -L belong to ld-flags?
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2015-05-18T10:08:56Z Posterdati: iolib-grovel::*ld-flags*
2015-05-18T10:08:56Z Posterdati: ; Evaluation aborted on #<UNBOUND-VARIABLE #x45718E8E>.
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2015-05-18T10:14:22Z Posterdati: mmmh I did ldconfig /usr/local/lib
2015-05-18T10:14:25Z Posterdati: seems to go
2015-05-18T10:15:01Z Posterdati: us exciting to have a full cl on a beaglebone!
2015-05-18T10:16:26Z Posterdati: done!
2015-05-18T10:16:28Z Posterdati: thanks
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2015-05-18T10:23:52Z loke: Can anyone tell me if there is an usocket problem with CCL right now?
2015-05-18T10:23:56Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2015-05-18T10:24:08Z loke: I'm trying to simply do a drakma:http-request (trying to get www.google.com) and I get an error in usocket
2015-05-18T10:24:23Z loke: can anyone else try it and tell me if it's something wrong with my local environment?>
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2015-05-18T10:25:24Z jackdaniel: loke: I've heard drakma made some incompatible change recently, and it's on quicklisp - but not sure if it's ccl specific. Problem I refer to is fixed on github, maybe try to clone drakma to your local-projects and check
2015-05-18T10:25:59Z loke: jackdaniel: Can you try to simply do a drakma:http-request "http://www.google.com") from your CCL and tell me if it works?
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2015-05-18T10:28:21Z Shinmera: loke: works fine for me.
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2015-05-18T10:28:37Z jackdaniel: the value nil is not of the expected type
2015-05-18T10:28:54Z Shinmera: Ah, hold on, I'm not on the latest QL.
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2015-05-18T10:30:06Z jackdaniel: loke: ↑
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2015-05-18T10:31:54Z Shinmera: loke: Works fine for me on drakma "1.3.13" ccl "Version 1.10-r16196  (LinuxX8664)"
2015-05-18T10:31:56Z jackdaniel: it works on ecl tough, so i think it's something ccl specific
2015-05-18T10:32:12Z loke: I'
2015-05-18T10:32:16Z loke: I'm using cc 1.11
2015-05-18T10:32:24Z loke: Hmm
2015-05-18T10:32:34Z jackdaniel: "Version 1.11-dev-r16376  (LinuxX8664)"
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2015-05-18T10:33:03Z loke: r16390 here
2015-05-18T10:33:16Z loke: What version of usocket?
2015-05-18T10:33:31Z Shinmera: "0.6.2"
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2015-05-18T10:33:55Z loke: wtf
2015-05-18T10:34:03Z jackdaniel: same
2015-05-18T10:34:09Z loke: ah
2015-05-18T10:34:32Z jackdaniel: it's quicklisp 2015-05-05
2015-05-18T10:34:32Z loke: jackdaniel: OK, so we do have the same issue
2015-05-18T10:34:36Z loke: Same here
2015-05-18T10:34:43Z loke: Shinmera: it worked on the old QL?
2015-05-18T10:34:49Z jackdaniel: so probably ccl messed something a bit
2015-05-18T10:35:22Z loke: I don't see how a ccl can be released which breaks drakma. Doesn't pretty much all application use it in one way or the other?
2015-05-18T10:35:30Z Shinmera: loke: Worked on both old and new.
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2015-05-18T10:35:42Z Shinmera: I'm on the latest QL now.
2015-05-18T10:35:49Z loke: Shinmera: OK, so it's definitely a problem with newer ccl's then
2015-05-18T10:35:56Z H4ns checks out ccl trunk to see
2015-05-18T10:36:13Z Shinmera: I'm not going to upgrade CCL to see if it'll break though
2015-05-18T10:36:16Z jackdaniel: loke: it's trunk ,not release (I think, pulled from repo)
2015-05-18T10:36:24Z Shinmera wants to stay with the version the aur package provides
2015-05-18T10:36:45Z jackdaniel: tehre is also ccl-svn ;)
2015-05-18T10:36:51Z jackdaniel: in aur
2015-05-18T10:36:58Z loke: jackdaniel: that's the one I was using
2015-05-18T10:37:16Z loke: getting ccl-bin now
2015-05-18T10:37:17Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: Ah. Still, I'd rather stick with stable.
2015-05-18T10:37:35Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: yeah, I'm downgrading now ^_^
2015-05-18T10:38:22Z jackdaniel: (it broke my cl-test-grid btw - 12h of computing *all* libs and can't send report) - just hadn't time to diagnose
2015-05-18T10:40:51Z loke: Wtf
2015-05-18T10:41:00Z jackdaniel: loke?
2015-05-18T10:41:09Z loke: SBCL and CCL 1.11 can load CL+SSL, but with CCL 1.10 I can't
2015-05-18T10:41:14Z jackdaniel: what terrible failure ?
2015-05-18T10:41:24Z loke: Yes, that's a terrible failure IMHO
2015-05-18T10:42:30Z H4ns: i can't rebuild ccl from trunk, and i don't have time to fix that now.  if anyone gets down to the bottom and finds drakma to be at fault, please file an issue.
2015-05-18T10:43:07Z jackdaniel: loke: ccl 1.10 loads cl+ssl flawlessly here
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2015-05-18T10:43:23Z jackdaniel: clear cache maybe
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2015-05-18T10:44:58Z loke: I just installed 1.10. I'd expect the cache for that version to be clear already
2015-05-18T10:45:21Z jackdaniel: sounds reasonable, yet I think it's not fault of ccl 1.10
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2015-05-18T10:47:00Z Posterdati: is anyone programming i2c with commin lisp?
2015-05-18T10:47:37Z jackdaniel: are you writing some kind of userspace driver?
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2015-05-18T10:49:11Z Posterdati: not for now
2015-05-18T10:49:27Z Posterdati: just a bunch of functions for my application
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2015-05-18T10:53:45Z Posterdati: Process inferior-lisp segmentation fault
2015-05-18T10:53:46Z Posterdati: nice
2015-05-18T10:53:59Z Posterdati: ccl is performing at its best!
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2015-05-18T10:56:46Z fe[nl]ix: Posterdati: you shouldn't try to add -I/usr/local/include/ to the IOlib build process
2015-05-18T10:56:52Z fe[nl]ix: that's a problem with the system compiler
2015-05-18T10:57:32Z Posterdati: but iolib was compiled
2015-05-18T10:57:38Z Posterdati: at last
2015-05-18T11:01:46Z Posterdati: I will give ecl a try
2015-05-18T11:02:15Z loke: OK, I see now why ccl failed
2015-05-18T11:02:18Z loke: it's the 32-bit version
2015-05-18T11:02:41Z loke: I don't have 32-bit openssl installed
2015-05-18T11:02:50Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: share impressions when you do!
2015-05-18T11:04:28Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: I will bother you, and ask your help too!
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2015-05-18T11:05:16Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: I'm compiling it!
2015-05-18T11:05:37Z jackdaniel: what branch?
2015-05-18T11:05:59Z Posterdati: ecl-15.3.7.tgz from http://sourceforge.net/projects/ecls/?source=typ_redirect
2015-05-18T11:07:37Z Posterdati: //home/root/ecl-15.3.7/src/libffi/src/arm/sysv.S:266: Error: selected processor does not support `flddle d0,[ip]'
2015-05-18T11:07:44Z Posterdati: nice!
2015-05-18T11:08:04Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: take from https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl from branch develop
2015-05-18T11:08:09Z jackdaniel: it has updated libffi
2015-05-18T11:08:46Z jackdaniel: and has various fixes (ie make-encoding doesn't work on 15.3.7) - I'm performing regression tests now, so not sure if there are any
2015-05-18T11:09:16Z Posterdati: error: Problem with the SSL CA cert (path? access rights?) while accessing https
2015-05-18T11:09:16Z Posterdati: fatal: HTTP request failed
2015-05-18T11:09:27Z Posterdati: cannot git clone it
2015-05-18T11:09:38Z jackdaniel: git@gitlab.com:embeddable-common-lisp/ecl.git <-
2015-05-18T11:09:52Z jackdaniel: or https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/repository/archive.tar.gz
2015-05-18T11:09:58Z jackdaniel: with wget
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2015-05-18T11:11:42Z jackdaniel: or if you want to use sourceforge, you can use --with-ffi=system to use libffi from distribution
2015-05-18T11:12:05Z Posterdati: wget https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/repository/archive.tar.gz
2015-05-18T11:12:05Z Posterdati: wget: not an http or ftp url: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/repository/archive.tar.gz
2015-05-18T11:12:55Z jackdaniel: wget -c *
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2015-05-18T11:13:25Z Posterdati: same
2015-05-18T11:14:12Z jackdaniel: I wonder what kind of distribution you have in that case
2015-05-18T11:14:16Z jackdaniel: have you considered http://archlinuxarm.org/ ?
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2015-05-18T11:17:06Z jackdaniel: http://hellsgate.pl/static/ecl-15.3.7-develop.tar.gz try this
2015-05-18T11:17:08Z jackdaniel: it's pure http
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2015-05-18T11:23:49Z jackdaniel: a, and to use iolib with ecl you have to put in local-projects cffi pulled from git - version in quicklisp isn't aware, that ecl has implemented some methods
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2015-05-18T11:32:46Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: downloaded
2015-05-18T11:33:38Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: I'm running angstrom
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2015-05-18T11:33:46Z Xach: seems like a good time for a new cffi release
2015-05-18T11:34:46Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: wheezy kernel trash the board :)
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2015-05-18T11:40:38Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: it is compiling...
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2015-05-18T11:59:49Z jackdaniel: yeah, compilation of/win 14
2015-05-18T11:59:51Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: your work is huge! Still compiling!
2015-05-18T12:00:21Z jackdaniel: it's not my work, I just maintain it standing on the shoulders of giants ;-)
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2015-05-18T12:01:01Z Posterdati: you have to climb the giant first! :)
2015-05-18T12:01:10Z Xach: in the shadow of the colossus
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2015-05-18T12:01:29Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: was it a work by tahichi yuasa?
2015-05-18T12:01:31Z jackdaniel: compiling on arm can take a while tough
2015-05-18T12:02:30Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: yes, and many others
2015-05-18T12:02:45Z Posterdati: impressive
2015-05-18T12:03:11Z jackdaniel: that is a nice idea for article on ecl quarterly
2015-05-18T12:03:14Z jackdaniel: history of ecl ^_^
2015-05-18T12:03:31Z jackdaniel: if my english could be a little better *sigh*
2015-05-18T12:03:46Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: where are you from?
2015-05-18T12:03:53Z jackdaniel: from poland, why?
2015-05-18T12:04:19Z Posterdati: nothing, just curious
2015-05-18T12:05:48Z Posterdati: anyway to mantain could be ever worst than release a big project, espcially on the quicksands of modern cpus and micros
2015-05-18T12:07:22Z Posterdati: why there's no #ecl channel?
2015-05-18T12:07:35Z jackdaniel: what for? there is mailing list
2015-05-18T12:07:48Z Posterdati: there's even #sbcl
2015-05-18T12:07:51Z jackdaniel: if there would be a bunch of ecl hackers, then probably separate channel would do
2015-05-18T12:08:00Z jackdaniel: if irc would be their thing
2015-05-18T12:08:48Z loz: hi guys, are you using slime object inspector?
2015-05-18T12:08:50Z jackdaniel: btw, ad: contribute to ecl ;)
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2015-05-18T12:10:05Z loz: i cant figure out how to get source of object with slime-inspector-show-source
2015-05-18T12:10:07Z jackdaniel: big part of it is portable lisp code, so if you're scared of C, it's not a problem :p
2015-05-18T12:10:29Z Posterdati: not scared... Bored
2015-05-18T12:10:56Z jackdaniel: C is a very nice language - that's why I've got interested in ecl in a first place
2015-05-18T12:11:06Z jackdaniel: possibility to inline lisp in c and vice-versa
2015-05-18T12:11:18Z jackdaniel: s/a/at/
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2015-05-18T12:12:19Z Posterdati: c is useful
2015-05-18T12:13:15Z Posterdati: but it bring you to investigate c++ further, then one find that c++ should be named c--
2015-05-18T12:13:20Z Posterdati: or --c
2015-05-18T12:13:56Z jackdaniel: I wouldn't compare C and C++
2015-05-18T12:14:12Z jackdaniel: they are as distant (if not more) as Scheme and CL
2015-05-18T12:14:34Z pjb: jackdaniel: you cannot argue that.
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2015-05-18T12:14:58Z pjb: There are a lot more C programs that you can compile with a C++ compiler than scheme vs. CL.
2015-05-18T12:15:07Z pjb: Have a look at (intersection common-lisp emacs-lisp scheme) http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/intersection-r5rs-common-lisp-emacs-lisp/
2015-05-18T12:16:52Z jackdaniel: fact that you can compile C code with C++ compiler is irrevelant, it's still C code
2015-05-18T12:18:02Z pjb: right. you can also compile c code with a CL compiler with Vacietis.
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2015-05-18T12:19:45Z Posterdati: c should be a subset of c++
2015-05-18T12:22:10Z Posterdati: and secondly a c++ program could be translated in c one
2015-05-18T12:23:11Z Posterdati: that was the early c++ compiler behaviour like amiga SAS C/C++ line of compilers
2015-05-18T12:26:31Z jackdaniel: btw - http://libcello.org/
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2015-05-18T12:29:42Z christoph_debian: Posterdati: well c is not a proper subset ;-)
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2015-05-18T12:29:52Z christoph_debian: and common lisp can also be translated to c programs
2015-05-18T12:29:54Z christoph_debian: ;-)
2015-05-18T12:30:04Z christoph_debian: ecl still does that
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2015-05-18T12:38:58Z DeadTrickster: how asdf :static-file can be useful?
2015-05-18T12:39:26Z Xach: DeadTrickster: if you want to use the asdf object as a record of all files in your project, even those that are not lisp sources to be built
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2015-05-18T12:39:45Z Xach: DeadTrickster: that is not a very common usage, but it does happen sometimes
2015-05-18T12:40:25Z DeadTrickster: Xach, I understand this I maybe should ask for usage scenario
2015-05-18T12:40:54Z DeadTrickster: like OK asdf knows about this file so what can I do now?
2015-05-18T12:41:13Z Shinmera: Check for its existence.
2015-05-18T12:41:22Z Shinmera: Other components could act on it, too.
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2015-05-18T12:44:26Z DeadTrickster: I thought they somehow embedded in lisp runtime in dictionary-like structure
2015-05-18T12:45:00Z DeadTrickster: http://xach.livejournal.com/294639.html it's 2011, is it obsolete?
2015-05-18T12:45:24Z DeadTrickster: or better: if I have static-file entry how to get its full path
2015-05-18T12:45:30Z DeadTrickster: &
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2015-05-18T12:46:22Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: compiled without errors!
2015-05-18T12:46:58Z Posterdati: make install
2015-05-18T12:47:22Z Posterdati: Copyright (C) 2015 Daniel Kochmanski
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2015-05-18T12:47:25Z Posterdati: is it you?
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2015-05-18T12:48:29Z jackdaniel: yes
2015-05-18T12:48:41Z jackdaniel: Kochmański, but "ń" broke windows console ^_^
2015-05-18T12:49:22Z pjb: what is it? who cares about it?
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2015-05-18T12:49:45Z jackdaniel: hm, I think a bunch of potential free software supporters
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2015-05-18T12:50:31Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: it is interacting with slime! Cool!
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2015-05-18T12:51:41Z jackdaniel: again, not my work :p if you encounter any problems, let me know - if any bugs, submit them (unless  already here -- https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues)
2015-05-18T12:52:26Z jackdaniel: clisp uses gnu lightning?
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2015-05-18T13:27:46Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: seems to work, it is compiling flexi-streams due to a quickload command for hunchentoot
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2015-05-18T13:30:04Z jackdaniel: sounds good
2015-05-18T13:30:24Z Posterdati: babel now
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2015-05-18T13:30:41Z jackdaniel: it might take a while, because it produces C code, and then compiles it with gcc
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2015-05-18T13:31:10Z jackdaniel: but next run should work smoothier
2015-05-18T13:31:19Z Posterdati: yes I hopw
2015-05-18T13:31:20Z Posterdati: yes I hope
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2015-05-18T13:32:16Z jackdaniel: loading all libraries from scrach from quicklisp on pretty strong 64 laptop takes ~10h
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2015-05-18T13:33:00Z Posterdati: not an intel based one
2015-05-18T13:33:05Z Posterdati: I hope :)
2015-05-18T13:33:23Z jackdaniel: by all libraries I mean ~1300 libraries available on quicklisp
2015-05-18T13:33:39Z Posterdati: I do not need them
2015-05-18T13:33:45Z Posterdati: I mean not all of them
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2015-05-18T13:36:44Z jackdaniel: what is a name of ccl init file?
2015-05-18T13:36:51Z jackdaniel: .cclrc doesn't seem to work
2015-05-18T13:37:08Z mood: jackdaniel: .ccl-init.lisp
2015-05-18T13:37:13Z Posterdati: .ccl-init.lisp
2015-05-18T13:37:14Z pjb: ~/ccl-init.lisp
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2015-05-18T13:37:18Z pjb: no need for a dot.
2015-05-18T13:37:29Z jackdaniel: thanks
2015-05-18T13:37:48Z Posterdati: I've got it with the leading . and it worked
2015-05-18T13:38:14Z pjb: now question: what happens when you have both ? :-)
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2015-05-18T13:39:09Z Posterdati: you need to release the core
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2015-05-18T13:39:20Z Posterdati: before it'll breach
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2015-05-18T13:39:56Z jackdaniel: the universe will explode
2015-05-18T13:39:58Z Posterdati: or change the tachyons phase
2015-05-18T13:40:11Z jackdaniel: doing it, in 3.. 2.. 1..
2015-05-18T13:40:32Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: no it will die cold
2015-05-18T13:41:42Z jackdaniel: condition of type vector-size-limitation ;_;
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2015-05-18T13:42:07Z Posterdati: where and when?
2015-05-18T13:42:28Z jackdaniel: on ccl when loading reporting results for testing
2015-05-18T13:42:43Z pjb: try ccl64
2015-05-18T13:42:51Z Posterdati: try loading the md5 package
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2015-05-18T13:43:54Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: md5 package compiles on ecl, it has loaded it now
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2015-05-18T13:44:43Z jackdaniel: so i have to rebuild ccl?
2015-05-18T13:44:55Z Posterdati: no just forget it
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2015-05-18T13:55:49Z jackdaniel: sbcl: heap exhausted, game over ;D
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2015-05-18T13:59:03Z jackdaniel: b
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2015-05-18T14:15:20Z Posterdati: pjb: a slaves factory contected me ten minutes ago
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2015-05-18T14:21:37Z jackdaniel: slaves factory?
2015-05-18T14:22:11Z wbooze: and ?
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2015-05-18T14:28:28Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: yes consulting firms
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2015-05-18T14:28:51Z jackdaniel: is it a name of one of them, or just a joke?
2015-05-18T14:29:10Z Posterdati: well like accenture
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2015-05-18T14:33:15Z Posterdati: they use to search for people to work almost for free in their projects, well they resell your job to others so they can have 900 euros per day and give to the slave 1200, 1500 euros per month
2015-05-18T14:33:39Z jackdaniel: it's still big amount of money here ^_^
2015-05-18T14:34:02Z jackdaniel: maybe not big, above average tough
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2015-05-18T14:36:41Z Posterdati: are 1200 euros a lot of money?
2015-05-18T14:37:19Z Xach: Posterdati: is it a common lisp job?
2015-05-18T14:37:31Z Posterdati: Xach: no
2015-05-18T14:37:39Z Xach: Please discuss it somewhere else, then.
2015-05-18T14:37:39Z jackdaniel: roughly calculating it's 4800 zlotych, while median is 3000 i think
2015-05-18T14:37:45Z Posterdati: an embedded project
2015-05-18T14:37:59Z jackdaniel: right, sorry
2015-05-18T14:38:38Z Posterdati: %CLOSE-FOREIGN-LIBRARY unimplemented.
2015-05-18T14:38:38Z Posterdati:    [Condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR]
2015-05-18T14:38:38Z remi`bd: well, Posterdati, isn’t that the principle of capitalism? One’s work is to sell the other’s work and make money from the margin.
2015-05-18T14:38:50Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: what is it?
2015-05-18T14:38:54Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: this is problem I mentioned, new cffi has it right
2015-05-18T14:39:07Z Posterdati: ah
2015-05-18T14:39:10Z jackdaniel: just suck it from github and put in quicklisp/local-projects, should work
2015-05-18T14:39:15Z remi`bd: For instance, I believe traders could be even more perceived as “slaves” the definition you’ve given
2015-05-18T14:39:16Z Posterdati: ok
2015-05-18T14:39:38Z jackdaniel: -> #lispcafe
2015-05-18T14:39:48Z remi`bd: ok
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2015-05-18T14:58:05Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: seems to work :)
2015-05-18T14:58:21Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: thanks
2015-05-18T14:58:32Z jackdaniel: yw
2015-05-18T14:58:57Z Posterdati: so I can program the juicy i2c devices on this board!
2015-05-18T14:59:08Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: in ecl you can inline C
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2015-05-18T14:59:19Z Posterdati: juicy!
2015-05-18T14:59:29Z Posterdati: pjb: told me that too!
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2015-05-18T15:36:25Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: is it normal that every time I load my projects it recompiles cffi?
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2015-05-18T15:38:36Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: rather not, but are you sure it recompiles it?
2015-05-18T15:38:45Z Posterdati: yes
2015-05-18T15:39:06Z Posterdati: ; Loading "leds"
2015-05-18T15:39:06Z Posterdati: ; g++ -marm -I/usr/local/include/ -Wno-write-strings ...
2015-05-18T15:39:57Z jackdaniel: it recompiles cffi or your project?
2015-05-18T15:40:04Z jackdaniel: run (ql:quickload :cffi :verbose t)
2015-05-18T15:40:13Z Posterdati: cffi
2015-05-18T15:40:49Z jackdaniel: I've loaded :cffi on my arm plug, and first time it compiled it, yet
2015-05-18T15:40:54Z jackdaniel: but second time it just loaded
2015-05-18T15:40:54Z Posterdati: ah ol
2015-05-18T15:41:02Z Posterdati: ah ok, it recompiles my code!
2015-05-18T15:41:12Z jackdaniel: that makes more sense I think
2015-05-18T15:41:20Z Posterdati: because I changed some stuff inside it
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2015-05-18T16:18:34Z Posterdati: #ecl is open now!
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2015-05-18T16:20:06Z Posterdati: fe[nl]ix: seems that this gcc won't look for lfp.h in /usr/local/include ... strange, is it possible to setup it system wide?
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2015-05-18T16:21:16Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: include directories should be set system-wide
2015-05-18T16:21:44Z Posterdati: on this angstrom seems this is not the case
2015-05-18T16:23:12Z pjb: Posterdati: add an entry in http://cliki.net/IRC
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2015-05-18T16:35:38Z jackdaniel: hm, #ecl is taken, so #embeddable-cl is now open fwiw
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2015-05-18T17:03:16Z failproofshark: hello
2015-05-18T17:03:57Z wbooze: evening failproofshark rof
2015-05-18T17:04:10Z wbooze: -rof* meh :/
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2015-05-18T17:06:04Z jackdaniel: o/
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2015-05-18T17:10:46Z failproofshark: hello wbooze and jackdaniel
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2015-05-18T17:19:21Z trinque: anyone have a recommended mcclim tutorial?
2015-05-18T17:19:31Z trinque: seems a very interesting way to do UI
2015-05-18T17:19:42Z trinque: as I understand it, more command-line driven than typical UI
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2015-05-18T17:24:32Z oleo: nope trinque
2015-05-18T17:24:51Z oleo: well the ones from the webs are very short actually....
2015-05-18T17:24:52Z trinque: oleo: heh just start banging on mcclim and see what happens?
2015-05-18T17:25:02Z oleo: well, sort of.....
2015-05-18T17:25:20Z oleo: you can use my fork, or do your own....
2015-05-18T17:25:30Z oleo: github/leventguel, have a look there....
2015-05-18T17:25:38Z trinque: thanks, will do
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2015-05-18T17:26:16Z trinque: oleo: do I understand it correctly? it's a sort of command line interface which can also display UI?
2015-05-18T17:26:23Z oleo: i'm trying to improve it, but most of the stuff is about looks just, only very rarely i do find real stuff for fixing....
2015-05-18T17:26:23Z trinque: *graphical UI
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2015-05-18T17:27:01Z oleo: yes
2015-05-18T17:27:29Z trinque: seems highly applicable to for example database applications where the user's expected to do some querying
2015-05-18T17:27:49Z oleo: 1 frame,  2 panes (most basic explanation) 1 pane for output 1 for input (command processing)
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2015-05-18T17:28:08Z oleo: yes, you could do that too....
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2015-05-18T17:28:19Z oleo: tho lispworks has all the better feats i bet.....
2015-05-18T17:28:34Z oleo: with their capi and whole setup.....
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2015-05-18T17:29:48Z trinque: yeah they mention database support as one of the features of their enterprise thing
2015-05-18T17:30:15Z oleo: jep, so if you are into pro stuff go there, otherwise for learning purposes mcclim is totally sufficient....
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2015-05-18T17:30:16Z trinque: there's also this guy http://marijnhaverbeke.nl/postmodern/
2015-05-18T17:30:30Z trinque: I think I'll hack on mcclim for now; my intent is mostly to learn
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2015-05-18T17:30:43Z oleo: ok
2015-05-18T17:31:07Z oleo: fine, i see more and more people get interested in mcclim in this channel
2015-05-18T17:31:14Z oleo: geez :)
2015-05-18T17:31:17Z trinque: cool, I'll stick around
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2015-05-18T19:11:45Z JSharpe: Hello, i'm getting a DEFINE is undefined error when loading my lisp file in gcl.exe
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2015-05-18T19:12:29Z JSharpe: http://pastebin.com/MAL0VTrT
2015-05-18T19:13:08Z JSharpe: I'm following the code from https://youtu.be/dlbMuv-jix8?list=PLB63C06FAF154F047&t=871
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2015-05-18T19:14:03Z JSharpe: and executing the file as gcl.exe -load C:\Users\Jamie\Documents\Lisp\Examples.lsp
2015-05-18T19:14:09Z failproofshark: JSharpe: thats scheme
2015-05-18T19:14:10Z failproofshark: not CL
2015-05-18T19:14:47Z failproofshark: to define a function in common lisp you use the defun macro
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2015-05-18T19:16:46Z JSharpe: ah, thanks
2015-05-18T19:17:55Z failproofshark: no problem
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2015-05-18T19:35:29Z affine-pyon is now known as projective-pyon
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2015-05-18T19:50:51Z jjkola: hi
2015-05-18T19:50:57Z jackdaniel: jjkola: hi :)
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2015-05-18T19:53:36Z jjkola: is there an easy way to disable warnings about package version information? I mean when I load a package for some packages I get a warning about non-conformant version number etc.
2015-05-18T19:54:06Z jackdaniel: jjkola: in what cl implementation / with what package manager?
2015-05-18T19:54:50Z jjkola: sbcl and packages fetched with quicklisp (afterwards I'm just using require)
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2015-05-18T19:58:09Z jackdaniel: hm, didn't have this problem
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2015-05-18T20:00:58Z jjkola: did you use require? also, not all packages are problematic but for example uiop is one of them (by using 1.1-dev version tag)
2015-05-18T20:01:43Z jackdaniel: I usually link projects I depend (if not ql vanilla) in quicklisp/local-projects
2015-05-18T20:01:50Z jackdaniel: and declare dependencies in asd file
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2015-05-18T20:03:08Z jjkola: I have thought about using an asd file but wanted to get things running quickly so opted for loading script
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2015-05-18T20:05:15Z Xach: asdf blarts about it
2015-05-18T20:05:26Z Xach: if you don't use integers with dots between it will complain
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2015-05-18T20:08:55Z jjkola: Xach: is there a way to suppress those? I don't want extra output in my cron stuff
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2015-05-18T20:09:52Z Xach: jjkola: I don't know. When I put stuff in cron, i preload everything and save an image/executable.
2015-05-18T20:10:50Z jjkola: oh, I didn't think of that. Thanks
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2015-05-18T20:20:16Z Xach: jjkola: it does not look to me like it is configurable. you could always clobber and redefine asdf/parse-defsystem::normalize-version though.
2015-05-18T20:22:10Z jjkola: Xach: thanks for help
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2015-05-18T20:25:26Z Xach: another option: petition authors of all projects with asdf-incompatible version strings to switch to asdf-compatible version strings
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2015-05-18T20:35:59Z Shinmera: I'd like that option
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2015-05-18T20:45:31Z Xach: I'm not sure what's best in a world where each commit is a new version
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2015-05-18T20:46:46Z eudoxia should change version numbers more often
2015-05-18T20:46:59Z Xach: Though I *was* thinking about some kind of automatic interface diff report where you could tell what functions are new or what functions have different lambda lists or similar things
2015-05-18T20:46:59Z eudoxia: increase*, that is
2015-05-18T20:47:15Z Shinmera: I change version numbers for when I add new significant features or make breaking changes.
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2015-05-18T23:01:16Z hplc: is the microsoft "kinnect" based on a lisp dialect?
2015-05-18T23:02:10Z Xach: hplc: no
2015-05-18T23:02:57Z aeth: Is this preferable to coding something that does something similar? http://lisptips.com/post/43404489000/the-tree-walkers-of-cl
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2015-05-18T23:05:29Z aeth: e.g. another way to go through a tree is to do tail recursion on a MAPCAR, and another is to iterate over it
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2015-05-18T23:06:26Z Xach: Those aren't particularly preferable
2015-05-18T23:06:30Z Xach: the lisptips ones, that is
2015-05-18T23:06:33Z hplc: asking because a video i saw regarding south koreas autonumous sentry guards, where its stated that Samsung used kinect for the identification. And i though it MUST be some kind of A.I language to have a machine to decide when to flip the trigger switch
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2015-05-18T23:07:13Z aeth: It's Microsoft, they probably coded it in C#.
2015-05-18T23:07:15Z Xach: hplc: nope
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2015-05-18T23:07:28Z Xach: aeth: tail recursion on a mapcar?
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2015-05-18T23:08:14Z jasom: hplc: what's an A.I. language?
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2015-05-18T23:09:10Z hplc: isnt lisp, and  algol, 2 examples of that family?
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2015-05-18T23:09:53Z aeth: Xach: iirc, create two functions, the first calls a mapcar of a function on a tree, then that second function calls itself in the tail position if it finds a list
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2015-05-18T23:10:20Z aeth: Recursively mapping. I learned that from a Scheme book a long time ago
2015-05-18T23:12:20Z Xach: hplc: not really.
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2015-05-18T23:12:59Z aeth: hplc: AI is actually something I haven't seen in Lisp. That's very 1980s.
2015-05-18T23:14:37Z hplc: so what do present day robot hobbyists/enthusiasts use for language?
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2015-05-18T23:19:29Z hplc: perhaps wrong channel, perhaps its about prolog i seek
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2015-05-18T23:27:56Z aeth: hplc: what are you trying to write?
2015-05-18T23:28:51Z hplc: just starting to pickup on A.I programming as a hobby, total beginner / newb
2015-05-18T23:29:03Z Bike: robots often use horrid things hacked up from some assembly :p
2015-05-18T23:29:37Z aeth: You can AI program in Lisp. sbcl is ported to ARM now so you can do robots, I guess.
2015-05-18T23:30:23Z hplc: i do have an  an ARM based unit unit
2015-05-18T23:30:35Z hplc: raspberry PI is arm i think
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2015-05-18T23:30:45Z aeth: yes
2015-05-18T23:31:15Z hplc: does common lisp default to -77 version? or -90?
2015-05-18T23:32:18Z jlarocco_work: haha
2015-05-18T23:34:43Z Bike: is that a fortran joke
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2015-05-18T23:41:16Z aeth: hplc: what OS are you using on your Raspberry Pi?
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2015-05-18T23:41:50Z hplc: Raspian (debian)
2015-05-18T23:43:36Z aeth: Does it have SBCL in its software repository?
2015-05-18T23:44:59Z aeth: You will probably want to use either clisp or sbcl.
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2015-05-19T02:44:00Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-05-19T02:44:37Z akkad: hi beach
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2015-05-19T02:47:24Z drmeister: Hi beach
2015-05-19T02:47:46Z drmeister: I figured out the problem with cleavir-primop:consp and others.
2015-05-19T02:48:01Z beach: OK.
2015-05-19T02:48:17Z drmeister: My reader had a very subtle bug where internal symbols were made available to outside packages.
2015-05-19T02:48:29Z drmeister: So cleavir-primop:consp == cl::consp
2015-05-19T02:48:43Z drmeister: I never caught it until now (groan)
2015-05-19T02:48:54Z beach: Wow.
2015-05-19T02:48:58Z drmeister: Yeah
2015-05-19T02:49:26Z drmeister: I'm not sure that this was the only problem - recompiling everything now to find out.
2015-05-19T02:49:34Z beach: Is that what caused the crash?
2015-05-19T02:50:00Z drmeister: I'm not sure what caused that.  I haven't gotten back to that stage.
2015-05-19T02:50:32Z drmeister: I'm hoping it was and that it goes away.
2015-05-19T02:50:48Z beach: Sounds like a plausible cause.
2015-05-19T02:52:17Z beach: How could such a bug happen?
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2015-05-19T02:55:14Z drmeister: In the reader, when I intern symbols, if the symbol is FOO:BAR I wasn't checking if it was exported by the package FOO - I just went ahead and interned it.
2015-05-19T02:55:37Z beach: Hmm.
2015-05-19T02:55:48Z beach: How can that cause it to get interned in the wrong package?
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2015-05-19T02:59:13Z drmeister: I haven't quite figured that out yet.   It was a bug.
2015-05-19T02:59:29Z drmeister: I've been running some tests but they haven't been conclusive yet.
2015-05-19T03:00:41Z drmeister: cleavir-primops used :CL
2015-05-19T03:01:05Z drmeister: If I typed 'cleavir-primops:car I would get cl:car
2015-05-19T03:01:17Z beach: I see.
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2015-05-19T03:01:35Z drmeister: Does that explain it?  I'm not sure.
2015-05-19T03:02:09Z drmeister: No, it doesn't quite explain it.   Maybe something else is wrong with my packages.
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2015-05-19T03:03:08Z drmeister: In the Primops directory you have packages.lsp
2015-05-19T03:03:11Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/bgzPzF4Z
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2015-05-19T03:03:39Z drmeister: This is what creates the cleavir-primop:car symbol that shadows the cl:car symbol - correct?
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2015-05-19T03:04:30Z beach: No, it doesn't use the CL package, so there is no shadowing.
2015-05-19T03:04:43Z beach: But, hold on a sec...
2015-05-19T03:05:36Z beach: I see it.
2015-05-19T03:05:37Z drmeister: ECL and clasp DEFPACKAGE appear to automatically use :CL
2015-05-19T03:05:41Z beach: Yes.
2015-05-19T03:05:47Z drmeister: What?
2015-05-19T03:05:56Z beach: "If :use is not supplied, it defaults to the same implementation-dependent value as the :use argument to make-package."
2015-05-19T03:06:23Z drmeister: I guess SBCL doesn't use :CL?
2015-05-19T03:06:24Z beach: So, there should be a (:USE) in there.
2015-05-19T03:06:27Z beach: Correct.
2015-05-19T03:06:54Z drmeister: Right, it doesn't.
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2015-05-19T03:07:06Z beach: Try sticking (:USE) in there.
2015-05-19T03:07:13Z drmeister: So is this fixed by adding (:use ) to the defpackage definition?
2015-05-19T03:07:15Z beach: Then, no package should be USEd.
2015-05-19T03:07:25Z beach: It should be.
2015-05-19T03:07:30Z beach: clhs defpackage.
2015-05-19T03:07:30Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for defpackage..
2015-05-19T03:07:35Z beach: clhs defpackage
2015-05-19T03:07:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm
2015-05-19T03:08:29Z drmeister: Right, that stops it from using the :CL package.
2015-05-19T03:08:36Z drmeister: Was that the problem?
2015-05-19T03:09:15Z beach: Yes.
2015-05-19T03:09:52Z beach: Because there is no :SHADOW, the symbols that have the same name as those of a :USEd package ARE the same.
2015-05-19T03:10:17Z beach: Er, you know what I mean.
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2015-05-19T03:11:13Z akkad: odd ironclad (defclass pbkdf2 () ((digest-name :initarg :digest :reader kdf-digest))) makes lisp unhappy with a UNKNOWN keyword error on :digest
2015-05-19T03:11:13Z akkad:  
2015-05-19T03:11:42Z beach: drmeister: I pushed the fix.
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2015-05-19T03:15:55Z drmeister: Thanks
2015-05-19T03:16:23Z drmeister: Is that the only one that needs it?
2015-05-19T03:16:43Z beach: I don't know.
2015-05-19T03:16:58Z beach: Pretty much every other package :USEs CL.
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2015-05-19T03:22:11Z drmeister: You mentioned adding cleavir-primop:consp this morning - is that still necessary?
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2015-05-19T03:23:02Z beach: Things aren't as trivial with the inlining as I thought.
2015-05-19T03:23:17Z beach: There is a CONSP-INSTRUCTION, which is good.
2015-05-19T03:23:26Z beach: It has 2 successors.
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2015-05-19T03:23:42Z beach: But it needs to be generated from some AST.
2015-05-19T03:23:43Z drmeister: I was going to ask about that.
2015-05-19T03:24:02Z beach: So, there needs to be some CONSP-AST.
2015-05-19T03:24:12Z beach: But the question is, how does that AST look?
2015-05-19T03:24:39Z beach: The easy solution would be for it to have a single child and to return a boolean.
2015-05-19T03:25:22Z beach: Actually, I think that will work.
2015-05-19T03:25:49Z drmeister: What does a child represent in the AST?
2015-05-19T03:26:02Z drmeister: It's an argument?  A sub-expression?
2015-05-19T03:26:13Z beach: The AST computing the object to test for CONS-ness.
2015-05-19T03:27:58Z beach: I guess the "clean" solution would be to have cleavir-primop:consp that generates that AST.
2015-05-19T03:28:27Z beach: Then to define: (defun consp (object) (cleavir-primop:consp object)) and inline CONSP.
2015-05-19T03:29:23Z beach: Then we need a method for compiling the CONSP-AST that works both with 1 and 2 successors.
2015-05-19T03:30:02Z beach: I need to think about it some more.
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2015-05-19T03:31:23Z beach: A more consistent solution would be to have the CONSP-AST be possible only as the conditional in an IF-AST.
2015-05-19T03:32:10Z drmeister: There's no other way it could appear?   There is no OR-AST or AND-AST - correct?
2015-05-19T03:32:12Z beach: Then you would have (defun consp (object) (if (cleavir-primop:consp object) T NIL))
2015-05-19T03:32:16Z drmeister: Those are built from IF
2015-05-19T03:32:23Z beach: Right.
2015-05-19T03:33:30Z beach: But with this solution, some optimization on the HIR level will be necessary to get the full benefit of inlining CONSP.
2015-05-19T03:33:45Z beach: That's OK though.  That optimization step is needed anyway.
2015-05-19T03:34:17Z beach: But it means you won't get all the performance benefits without it.
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2015-05-19T03:35:26Z beach: I think I'll choose the first solution.
2015-05-19T03:35:54Z beach: The CONSP-AST can appear anywhere.
2015-05-19T03:35:58Z beach: It returns a boolean.
2015-05-19T03:36:11Z beach: It can be compiled in a context with 1 or 2 successors.
2015-05-19T03:36:28Z beach: Er, no.  Hold on.
2015-05-19T03:36:33Z beach: That won't work.
2015-05-19T03:36:38Z beach: So the second solution.
2015-05-19T03:36:59Z beach: I shouldn't make design decisions this early in the morning.
2015-05-19T03:37:11Z beach: The first solution won't work for the following reason...
2015-05-19T03:37:37Z beach: Constants such as T or NIL must appear at the AST level or they won't get hoisted.
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2015-05-19T03:37:47Z beach: Therefore, I can't introduce them at the HIR level.
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2015-05-19T03:38:44Z beach: So I can't compile CONSP-AST in a context with a single successor where its value is needed.
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2015-05-19T03:39:21Z drmeister: Right
2015-05-19T03:39:32Z drmeister: I'm with you on the hoisted argument.
2015-05-19T03:39:56Z beach: Therefore you must have (defun consp (object) (if (cleavir-primop:consp object) T NIL))
2015-05-19T03:40:07Z beach: That way the constants are introduced in the AST.
2015-05-19T03:40:57Z beach: So before I implement that optimization at the HIR level, the HIR code will look wasteful (because it is).
2015-05-19T03:41:33Z beach: There will be a CONSP-INSTRUCTION, with 2 successors.  One successor will put NIL in a lexical variable, and the other will put T in that variable.
2015-05-19T03:41:49Z drmeister: Isn't that a bit round about - to test consp and produce a value T or nil and then compare it to T or nil?
2015-05-19T03:41:55Z beach: Then there will be an EQ-instruction, testing that value against NIL.
2015-05-19T03:42:18Z beach: But that will happen in other situations, so it must be optimized away.
2015-05-19T03:42:34Z beach: So there is no point in treating it specially.
2015-05-19T03:42:47Z drmeister: I see
2015-05-19T03:43:01Z beach: So, no, the round about would be to put special code in there for each case.
2015-05-19T03:45:49Z beach: drmeister: It is important to avoid as much special-purpose code as possible.
2015-05-19T03:46:59Z beach: I know it is tempting to stick some special-purpose code in there for some obvious case like this, but this temptation must be resisted.
2015-05-19T03:47:01Z drmeister: So (defun consp (object) (if (cleavir-primop:consp object) T nil))   and the CONSP-INSTRUCTION tests for the consp bits on its input and does what with the two successors?
2015-05-19T03:47:31Z drmeister: I guess it branches to them?
2015-05-19T03:47:41Z beach: Er, yes.
2015-05-19T03:47:51Z beach: ... according to the result of the test.
2015-05-19T03:48:16Z drmeister: I understand.
2015-05-19T03:48:25Z beach: Or, rather, it chooses one or the other successor based on the result.
2015-05-19T03:48:36Z beach: Whether it branches or not is determined by code layout.
2015-05-19T03:48:44Z drmeister: Does that sum it up?
2015-05-19T03:48:52Z beach: I think so, yes.
2015-05-19T03:53:43Z drmeister: Now CAR and CDR are easier - but should they test for CONSP?
2015-05-19T03:53:57Z drmeister: cleavir-primop:car and cleavir-primop:cdr
2015-05-19T03:54:00Z Zhivago: Well, they also operate on NIL.
2015-05-19T03:54:08Z drmeister: Ah yes.
2015-05-19T03:54:23Z Zhivago: Perhaps they should test for LIST?
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2015-05-19T03:59:14Z drmeister: I have a special tag for CONS cells.   So I can quickly test for CONS - if it's not CONS then I'd test for NIL.
2015-05-19T04:02:16Z beach: drmeister: They should test for consp by calling CL:CONSP.
2015-05-19T04:02:55Z beach: drmeister: And they should test for NIL by calling CL:NULL.
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2015-05-19T04:03:56Z beach: (defun car (list) (if (consp list) (cleavir-primop:car list) (if (null list) nil (error ...))))
2015-05-19T04:04:04Z Zhivago: Although one wonders why LISTP doesn't implement the above mechanism for you?
2015-05-19T04:04:28Z Zhivago: Ah, I guess you want to dispatch.
2015-05-19T04:04:34Z beach: Yes.
2015-05-19T04:04:53Z Zhivago: Doesn't nil have unique identity that could be cheaply tested?
2015-05-19T04:05:27Z beach: Some implementations do that, and it's a bad idea in general.
2015-05-19T04:05:34Z Zhivago: Why?
2015-05-19T04:05:38Z drmeister: Zhivago: I don't do that anymore.
2015-05-19T04:05:47Z beach: Because CONSP is going to be true in almost all cases where CAR is used.
2015-05-19T04:06:08Z Zhivago: I mean, why is it a bad idea for nil to have unique identity that could be cheaply tested?
2015-05-19T04:06:10Z beach: So it's a waste of special-purpose code to treat NIL specially rather than as the symbol it is.
2015-05-19T04:06:30Z beach: Because it introduces special-purpose code that then has to be maintained.
2015-05-19T04:06:39Z Zhivago: Well, interned symbols have unique identity that can be cheaply tested ...
2015-05-19T04:06:56Z beach: For things like symbolp, symbol-name, symbol-package, intern, etc, etc, etc.
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2015-05-19T04:07:29Z beach: Zhivago: It is best to treat NIL as an ordinary symbol.  It is cheap enough because it will be in a register most likely.
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2015-05-19T04:08:39Z beach: drmeister: I need a break.  I'll be back in half an hour or so.
2015-05-19T04:08:39Z Zhivago: Well, I'm not suggesting that it not be an ordinary symbol.
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2015-05-19T04:42:39Z beach: Good.
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2015-05-19T04:57:08Z beach: drmeister: Still here?
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2015-05-19T05:11:21Z beach: minion: memo for drmeister: I added CLEAVIR-PRIMOP:CONSP and CLEAVIR-AST:CONSP-AST, and I added methods for generating the AST from the primop and for generating the CONSP-INSTRUCTION from the CONSP-AST.  Untested, though, because I currently don't have as complete an environment as you do.
2015-05-19T05:11:21Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell drmeister when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-05-19T05:22:53Z beach: minion: memo for drmeister: In the code for the Clasp function CL:CONSP it would be wise to add a comments saying that (IF (CLEAVIR-PRIMOP:CONSP OBJECT) T NIL) can not be simplified to (CLEAVIR-PRIMOP:CONSP OBJECT).
2015-05-19T05:22:53Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell drmeister when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-05-19T06:32:11Z akkad: for simple stuff is gtk easier on sbcl than say qt?
2015-05-19T06:32:14Z akkad has seen docs on both
2015-05-19T06:32:24Z H4ns: ltk is easier for simple stuff
2015-05-19T06:33:11Z akkad: perfect. thanks
2015-05-19T06:39:47Z jackdaniel: does quicklisp handle symlinks in local-projects correctly?
2015-05-19T06:41:06Z H4ns: jackdaniel: last time it tried it did
2015-05-19T06:42:21Z jackdaniel: hm, then my setup must be broken somehow, because it "saw" my system only after copying (symlink didn't work)
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2015-05-19T06:49:14Z akkad: exceptions over fonts having spaces, me does not miss tk
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2015-05-19T07:06:26Z jackdaniel: seems uffi needs some love after all, it blocks 51 systems directly or indirectly
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2015-05-19T07:35:14Z Shinmera: akkad: CommonQt can be a bit of a pain to get running due to the smoke dependency, but once you have that it's probably your best shot for writing GUIs.
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2015-05-19T07:35:36Z Shinmera: akkad: You might also want to look at Qtools if you do go down that route.
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2015-05-19T07:48:08Z jackdaniel: shiftf doesn't expand correctly :¢
2015-05-19T07:50:59Z jackdaniel: ok, this seems easy to fix
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2015-05-19T08:13:19Z akkad: yeah playing with it now.
2015-05-19T08:13:31Z akkad: going to make some capi equivalents
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2015-05-19T08:35:02Z akkad: commont-qt is pretty nice. no dealing with qmake
2015-05-19T08:38:09Z Shinmera: It has its own set of kludges instead.
2015-05-19T08:40:09Z jackdaniel: how to run iterate-tests package?
2015-05-19T08:40:39Z jackdaniel: it doesn't export anything and lacks something 'ala run-tests function
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2015-05-19T08:42:03Z Shinmera: ASDF:TEST-SYSTEM?
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2015-05-19T08:42:58Z jackdaniel: nah, seems, it uses (regression-test:do-tests)
2015-05-19T08:43:44Z schjetne:  Speaking of GUIs, I had a thought the other day to see how CCL's Cocoa bindings work and if they could also be used with GNUStep
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2015-05-19T08:54:59Z pjb: schjetne: ccl developers like to write ccl specific code :-(  Porting the ObjC bridge would be hard work.  There are several different versions of the objc runtime (Apple, GNU v1, GNU v2, Cocotron), which renders it even harder.
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2015-05-19T09:00:33Z pjb: schjetne: have a look at: http://benkard.de/objective-cl (it's outdated, but may serve perhaps).
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2015-05-19T09:15:25Z schjetne: pjb: it was mostly an idle thought, I don't really have any plans for an application.
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2015-05-19T09:16:22Z schjetne: So portability across implementations isn't really a big concern
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2015-05-19T09:25:50Z pjb: schjetne: it should be: a lot of people as for a cross platform GUI.
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2015-05-19T11:36:17Z Xach: jackdaniel: it should
2015-05-19T11:38:12Z francogrex: Hi I am trying to use sbcl & cl+j (jvm/jni) on windows it goes mostly fone but sometimes it crashes with such a message: http://paste.lisp.org/display/148400 (here when I was closing a java swing window... could this be related to sbcl (threads) or the jvm itself? If sbcl is there a waork around? (I've been told that sbcl threads and unix not good, but here it's on windows )
2015-05-19T11:38:31Z francogrex: s/fone/fine
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2015-05-19T11:39:26Z jackdaniel: francogrex: if it's jvm specific, have you considered abcl? it runs *in* jvm
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2015-05-19T11:39:48Z jackdaniel: so no need for glue
2015-05-19T11:40:22Z jackdaniel: and problem seems pretty low-level, thereof you should try in #sbcl I think
2015-05-19T11:40:22Z francogrex: jackdaniel: not yet, I was experimenting with that cl+j library
2015-05-19T11:40:40Z francogrex: i tried but #sbcl
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2015-05-19T11:59:25Z Xach: luis: is a new cffi release in the works?
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2015-05-19T12:26:14Z luis: Xach: whoa, it's been a long time. Give me a deadline :)
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2015-05-19T12:28:43Z Xach: june 1!
2015-05-19T12:31:30Z Xach: luis: a couple different people asked me about pulling from git for recent fixes, but if it's not too much trouble, I'd prefer a new release
2015-05-19T12:34:14Z jackdaniel: ./win 14
2015-05-19T12:34:24Z Xach: jackdaniel: what prompted the symlinks question earlier?
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2015-05-19T12:41:11Z jackdaniel: hm, I symlinked fresh project with system definition to local-projects and system couldn't be found
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2015-05-19T12:41:22Z jackdaniel: but restarting whole lisp process fixed it
2015-05-19T12:43:52Z Xach: jackdaniel: another option is to use (ql:register-local-projects)
2015-05-19T12:44:25Z Xach: jackdaniel: the automagic is based on file and directory timestamps. if local-projects is newer than local-projects/system-index.txt, everything is re-scanned automatically.
2015-05-19T12:44:27Z jackdaniel: o, thanks
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2015-05-19T12:46:03Z jackdaniel got today his birthday present - Lisp In Small Pieces
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2015-05-19T12:48:41Z pjb: jackdaniel: happy birthday!
2015-05-19T12:49:20Z jackdaniel: thanks pjb, yet my birthday was yesterday :p
2015-05-19T12:49:28Z jackdaniel: present just got here one day late :D
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2015-05-19T13:10:36Z luis: Xach: June 1st, will do. I wonder why people don't poke me instead? What makes you more pokable? :)
2015-05-19T13:11:53Z Xach: luis: not sure!
2015-05-19T13:11:55Z jackdaniel: man-in-a-middle°
2015-05-19T13:12:06Z jackdaniel: feature
2015-05-19T13:13:13Z Xach: that's what i'm talking about
2015-05-19T13:14:06Z Xach is asking him to change his upstreams
2015-05-19T13:15:56Z fe[nl]ix: luis: ping
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2015-05-19T13:26:01Z luis: pong
2015-05-19T13:29:04Z fe[nl]ix: we have an internal bug about CFFI's :boolean, which is normalized as :int
2015-05-19T13:29:40Z fe[nl]ix: that goes against the x86_64 ABI, which specifies it's 1 byte
2015-05-19T13:30:06Z luis: oh right, :boolean != C's bool
2015-05-19T13:30:11Z fe[nl]ix: so the idea would be to clear that :boolean is always :int
2015-05-19T13:30:27Z fe[nl]ix: whereas :bool would be the native ABI boolean
2015-05-19T13:30:55Z luis: I think we don't have :bool because the various Lisps don't support it
2015-05-19T13:31:13Z luis: but, does (:boolean :char) work?
2015-05-19T13:31:36Z fe[nl]ix: yes, but it would be nice to have whatever the local ABI is
2015-05-19T13:31:46Z fe[nl]ix: makes it easier to translate C headers
2015-05-19T13:31:58Z fe[nl]ix: especially since the normalized type might differ between architectures
2015-05-19T13:32:06Z luis: Ah, I see. So :bool would be an alias (:boolean :appropriate-type)
2015-05-19T13:32:12Z fe[nl]ix back in a few minutes
2015-05-19T13:32:16Z fe[nl]ix: luis: yes
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2015-05-19T14:07:24Z failproofshark: hello
2015-05-19T14:09:07Z theos: hey
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2015-05-19T14:10:00Z jackdaniel: theos: o/
2015-05-19T14:10:21Z theos: sup
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2015-05-19T14:12:14Z jackdaniel: you know, #1=(day . #1)
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2015-05-19T14:45:44Z oleo: hello :)
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2015-05-19T14:54:31Z jackdaniel: hello oleo
2015-05-19T14:54:53Z oleo: hello jackdaniel
2015-05-19T14:56:08Z wbooze: hello jackdaniel
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2015-05-19T14:57:18Z failproofshark: heya theos jackdaniel and oleo
2015-05-19T14:57:21Z failproofshark: how goes it?
2015-05-19T14:57:35Z wbooze: fine failproofshark hello to you too
2015-05-19T14:57:53Z failproofshark: hello wbooze
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2015-05-19T14:58:06Z wbooze: failproofshark: wbooze == oleo
2015-05-19T14:58:23Z oleo: don't get confused ! :)
2015-05-19T14:59:04Z failproofshark: D:
2015-05-19T14:59:14Z wbooze: hahahah
2015-05-19T14:59:40Z failproofshark: so it has come to this...
2015-05-19T15:00:05Z wbooze: i'm just using another client, which is common-lisp based.... and i'm testing stuff from time to time with it, that's why....
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2015-05-19T15:01:26Z failproofshark: ah nice
2015-05-19T15:01:59Z failproofshark: wait, where you the one that was working on something for beirc?
2015-05-19T15:02:08Z failproofshark: the person rather
2015-05-19T15:02:34Z wbooze: err, one of many possibly.....
2015-05-19T15:02:59Z failproofshark: right. sorry i just remember someone talking about it here a couple of days ago
2015-05-19T15:03:01Z failproofshark: i think
2015-05-19T15:03:10Z failproofshark: can you tell im bad at making small talk?
2015-05-19T15:03:37Z pjb: foremost, you're bad at choosing the channel where to small talk.  You should do that in #lispcafe!!!
2015-05-19T15:04:01Z theos: you should limit your coffee consumption too
2015-05-19T15:04:26Z pjb: sodas and waters are also available in #lispcafe.
2015-05-19T15:04:52Z failproofshark: pjb: err yes i forgot
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2015-05-19T15:25:16Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2015-05-19T15:25:40Z echo-area: Good evening beach
2015-05-19T15:29:15Z beach: DEFMETHOD is a strange macro.  It calls MAKE-METHOD-LAMBDA at macro-expansion time, passing it class prototypes of the generic function class and the associated method class.  However, at macro-expansion time, the generic function might very well not exist.
2015-05-19T15:30:20Z beach: I suppose in this case, it must use prototypes of STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION and STANDARD-METHOD.  But then, the resulting method may very well be incompatible with the generic function that it is supposed to be added to at load time.
2015-05-19T15:31:16Z beach: It is not possible to delay the call to MAKE-METHOD-LAMBDA, because the resulting lambda expression must be compiled in the lexical environment of the DEFMETHOD form.
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2015-05-19T16:16:19Z Bike: beach: amop mentions the environment weirdness, and there's that one paper on make-method-lambda being a not good idea
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2015-05-19T16:16:51Z beach: Yeah, I can see why someone would think that.
2015-05-19T16:17:42Z beach: On the other hand, I think it is immensely useful for creating special kinds of generic functions and methods.
2015-05-19T16:18:20Z Bike: well, aforementioned paper had a replacement. you've read it, right? "make method lambda considered harmful" or something, by pcos
2015-05-19T16:18:36Z beach: Actually, I don't remember reading it.
2015-05-19T16:19:06Z beach: I have it here.
2015-05-19T16:19:25Z Bike: oh, you probably should. iirc it made it so you pass an actual closure instead of the source silliness, and added some keyword arguments.
2015-05-19T16:19:56Z beach: Yeah.  Thanks for pointing it out.
2015-05-19T16:19:56Z Bike: the thing that bugs me with amop is that it's clearly presented as a pretty experimental try, not a standard, but nobody much has tried altering it
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2015-05-19T16:20:35Z beach: True.  I think they express the desire for further experimentation explicitly, don't they?
2015-05-19T16:21:32Z Bike: yes.
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2015-05-19T16:32:21Z aeth: Are (= (length foo) 0) and (null foo) identical if the foo is necessarily a list?
2015-05-19T16:32:43Z aeth: The difference seems to be an error if LENGTH is used when foo is not a sequence.
2015-05-19T16:33:26Z ggole: aeth: no, because the list might cycle
2015-05-19T16:33:35Z ggole: The complexity is also different
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2015-05-19T16:33:49Z aeth: ah, I didn't think about that.
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2015-05-19T16:34:03Z jjkola: hi
2015-05-19T16:34:22Z beach: Hello jjkola.
2015-05-19T16:34:38Z ggole: There's also endp specifically for lists
2015-05-19T16:35:02Z ggole: (Which will error if the argument is not listp.)
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2015-05-19T16:37:26Z aeth: Okay, so I'm recursively iterating over lists, and I have in the past done (= (length foo) 0) and (null foo), but there's also (endp foo) too?
2015-05-19T16:37:30Z aeth: Is endp preferred?
2015-05-19T16:38:00Z beach: ENDP is preferred if you want to reject dotted lists with an error.
2015-05-19T16:38:39Z ggole: Eh?
2015-05-19T16:38:50Z ggole: Oh, I see
2015-05-19T16:38:58Z jjkola: I tried suppressing the asdf package version number warnings by redefining the asdf/parse-defsystem::normalize-version but now I'm facing the problem that I can't seem to be able to suppress the redefinition warning...
2015-05-19T16:38:59Z beach: (= (LENGTH FOO) 0) has a cost proportional to the length of the list, so is almost never the thing to do.
2015-05-19T16:39:39Z jjkola: I tried following the instructions on http://www.sbcl.org/1.0/manual/Controlling-Verbosity.html but it didn't seem to help
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2015-05-19T16:40:00Z aeth: beach: I did that one by mistake, and idk why I did. It was at the bottom of a very long CASE so it rarely came up, anyway.
2015-05-19T16:40:07Z beach: aeth: I should have said that if you want an explicit error to be signaled when by accident you have a dotted list, then ENDP is preferable.
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2015-05-19T16:48:06Z otwieracz: Gents, how can I specify listen port in ningle?
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2015-05-19T16:51:19Z pjb: No idea.  What about reading the doc of ningle?
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2015-05-19T16:59:49Z otwieracz: I see that clack docs are more appropiate here.
2015-05-19T16:59:57Z otwieracz: However, another question.
2015-05-19T17:00:44Z otwieracz: How to access one field from initform of another field in CLOS?
2015-05-19T17:01:50Z failproofshark: you mean in the case of inheritance?
2015-05-19T17:01:59Z otwieracz: No, no.
2015-05-19T17:02:09Z otwieracz: I've got two fields in my class: a and b
2015-05-19T17:02:10Z failproofshark: oh ok i see
2015-05-19T17:02:17Z failproofshark: and you want to access a from b
2015-05-19T17:02:20Z otwieracz: and (b :initform (1+ a))
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2015-05-19T17:09:45Z otwieracz: OK, any ideas how?
2015-05-19T17:14:26Z ggole: after method on initialize-instance?
2015-05-19T17:16:08Z dim: is it ok to think about after method on initialize-instance as a constructor?
2015-05-19T17:16:43Z otwieracz: http://paste.lisp.org/display/148430
2015-05-19T17:16:44Z ggole: I'm not sure. They seem somewhat similar.
2015-05-19T17:16:53Z otwieracz: That's what I want to do.
2015-05-19T17:16:55Z otwieracz: More or less.
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2015-05-19T17:17:08Z otwieracz: But of course a is undefined in this context.
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2015-05-19T17:21:00Z dim: otwieracz: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-classes.html#object-initialization
2015-05-19T17:22:22Z dim: see in particular "Then you can define an :after method on INITIALIZE-INSTANCE that sets the account-type slot based on the value that has been stored in the balance slot."
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2015-05-19T17:24:00Z ggole: Like this, I think https://gist.github.com/e00f9913e20081cdfa30
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2015-05-19T17:24:26Z otwieracz: Hmm.
2015-05-19T17:24:34Z otwieracz: It's ugly.
2015-05-19T17:24:52Z ggole: You could always just write a function.
2015-05-19T17:25:24Z carro: Is this a good way to avoid creating new types in scheme: http://pastebin.com/jz5bCrPS
2015-05-19T17:25:50Z ggole: carro: try in #scheme, this channel is for Common Lisp.
2015-05-19T17:26:14Z carro: I imagine you guys have a similar problem
2015-05-19T17:26:22Z carro: How do you avoid creating objects?
2015-05-19T17:26:59Z carro: My mind is java-addled
2015-05-19T17:27:33Z ggole: By "avoiding objects", you mean not using defstruct/defclass?
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2015-05-19T17:28:13Z carro: yeah, I don't want to create new types, I want to learn the functional way of doing things
2015-05-19T17:28:39Z Xach: in common lisp, it is typical to create new types when convenient, and new objects when convenient, and use functional style when convenient
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2015-05-19T17:29:14Z ggole: I'm not sure what you mean by "functional style"... reinventing objects with closures?
2015-05-19T17:29:23Z carro: That makes sense, and that's the way I would do it. I guess scheme is too pure for me
2015-05-19T17:29:47Z ggole: Scheme has record types
2015-05-19T17:30:03Z ggole: You just have to use some silly library (as I recall, I'm not a scheme guy)
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2015-05-19T17:30:44Z carro: Everything I do in scheme feels like the wrong way.
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2015-05-19T17:31:14Z carro: There always seems to be some divine way of doing things that I just don't get
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2015-05-19T17:32:23Z dim: since you're here anyway, what about trying CL instead?
2015-05-19T17:33:24Z carro: I've bought several books on it. I figured the way to go was mastering scheme and then learning common lisp.
2015-05-19T17:33:49Z ggole: They're actually rather different.
2015-05-19T17:35:07Z carro: I've come to think of scheme as more pure.
2015-05-19T17:35:38Z dim: try haskell or maybe ocaml and mythryl for some pure functional experience, I guess
2015-05-19T17:36:46Z carro: I'd rather stick with lisps. Just running into brick walls trying to make scheme practical
2015-05-19T17:37:57Z ggole: Maybe use Racket?
2015-05-19T17:38:40Z H4ns: how about common lisp?  i mean, #lisp?
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2015-05-19T17:39:05Z carro: Racket is too reliant on oop, I don't want to be forced to use classes everytime I want to use graphics
2015-05-19T17:39:09Z carro: How are cl graphics?
2015-05-19T17:39:15Z Xach: classes everywhere
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2015-05-19T17:41:29Z carro: If I was fine with classes in my lisp, I'd use ABCL or Kawa for the libraries. But classes don't seem like lispy concepts
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2015-05-19T17:42:02Z Adlai: carro: note that you've not avoided creating a new type; the type is still there, it's just implemented using your own functions, rather than common abstractions
2015-05-19T17:42:14Z beach: carro: You have too many strange ideas and too many constraints.
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2015-05-19T17:42:27Z dim: as a data point, I dislike "classical" OOP very much and I enjoy using CLOS, it for me rings as the proper way to do it
2015-05-19T17:42:39Z beach: carro: CLOS is a very Lispy idea, and it is perhaps the most powerful object-oriented system around.
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2015-05-19T17:42:49Z dim: beach: +1
2015-05-19T17:42:55Z dim: (fwiw)
2015-05-19T17:43:17Z carro: I figured it was just Classes forced onto lisp.
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2015-05-19T17:43:31Z H4ns: people who complain about things not being "lispy" enough routinely don't have a lot of experience in actually using lisp.
2015-05-19T17:43:43Z Adlai: it's more like "lisp extended to generic functions, and then classes just emerge along the way"
2015-05-19T17:43:45Z beach: H4ns: Very well said.
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2015-05-19T17:44:13Z carro: That's me, only been doing this for a few months. I guess I'll go learn CL/CLOS.
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2015-05-19T17:46:10Z dim: as H4ns said I found that getting used to lisp takes lots of time and practice, and I'm not sure about "getting lisp" (as a whole) yet (it's gigantic)
2015-05-19T17:48:17Z failproofshark: they do say that those that have ascend to a higher form of being
2015-05-19T17:48:27Z failproofshark: or go to grey haven
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2015-05-19T17:49:12Z oGMo: bah it's not that different
2015-05-19T17:49:27Z dim: working on grey hair atm ;-)
2015-05-19T17:49:28Z oGMo: and you have to practice a lot with anything
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2015-05-19T17:50:03Z carro: I found some CLOS-inspired scheme libraries, so I'll try that out rather than learning an entire new language. Hopefully finally getting to graphics will give me some practical experience
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2015-05-19T17:50:55Z oGMo: the only practical experience is doing practical things, not a few lines of demo code
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2015-05-19T17:52:17Z carro: I'm trying to make an arcade-style game, that will probably get into a few thousand lines. Up until this point, I'd never gotten past 400 in a single project.
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2015-05-19T17:53:19Z oGMo: carro: feel free to join #lispgames ;) though we mostly work in CL, too
2015-05-19T17:53:53Z oGMo: but any "real" project start-to-finish is about as practical as it gets
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2015-05-19T17:54:14Z aeth: carro: The convenient libraries are mostly CL afaik so you might want to just code Scheme in CL.
2015-05-19T17:54:36Z aeth: If you use a decent Lisp implementation, you'll get tail calls, but it won't be portable to all of them.
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2015-05-19T17:54:59Z carro: oGMo: I will, thanks.
2015-05-19T17:55:35Z carro: I use chicken right now, it's pretty fast and it has decent libraries
2015-05-19T17:55:56Z aeth: Does it have an SDL library?
2015-05-19T17:56:23Z carro: Yeah, although I couldn't get it working, right now I'm using the Xlib library.
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2015-05-19T18:01:10Z mood: Interesting fact: Some code from Fare's POIU was used in a Swedish TV series. http://moviecode.tumblr.com/image/88245186920
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2015-05-19T19:34:09Z pjb: mood: in MS-Word?
2015-05-19T19:34:44Z pjb: (answer in #lispcafe)
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2015-05-19T19:58:52Z jjkola: night
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2015-05-19T20:01:56Z jackdaniel: good night
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2015-05-19T21:01:05Z jackdaniel: is adjustable-array a simple array?
2015-05-19T21:01:40Z jackdaniel: nvm, found it
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2015-05-19T21:01:51Z Xach: jackdaniel: a simple array might be adjustable, but adjustable arrays are not simple
2015-05-19T21:02:03Z Xach: "expressly adjustable" arrays are not simple
2015-05-19T21:02:08Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2015-05-19T21:59:35Z jackdaniel: wee, another bug squashed
2015-05-19T21:59:42Z jackdaniel: good night
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2015-05-20T02:25:02Z clarice: Wow, ERC is pretty nifty
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2015-05-20T02:46:34Z Bike: Can I do of-type (simple-array ...) in LOOP or will it try to destructure it?
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2015-05-20T02:57:39Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-05-20T03:09:18Z Bike: good morning, beach.
2015-05-20T03:10:24Z loke: Bike: yes?
2015-05-20T03:10:41Z Bike: if i pinged you it was by accident.
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2015-05-20T03:36:16Z pillton: G'day beach and everyone else.
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2015-05-20T03:42:12Z Lycurgus: still tuesday in jesusland
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2015-05-20T04:00:16Z drmeister: Hi beach
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2015-05-20T04:20:40Z beach: drmeister: What's up?
2015-05-20T04:21:18Z drmeister: I'm trying to incorporate my chemistry code.  I'm wrestling with the build system.
2015-05-20T04:21:50Z beach: Did you put it online somewhere?
2015-05-20T04:22:24Z drmeister: No, it's not ready
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2015-05-20T04:25:11Z beach: That sounds like a good step in the right direction, i.e. the direction back to your research.
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2015-05-20T04:29:44Z beach: In the past, before I had first-class global environments, I defined a macro named DEFINE-BUILT-IN-CLASS and kind of mirrored the entire standard MOP machinery for built-in classes, simply because SICL built-in classes have the same structure as standard classes.
2015-05-20T04:30:01Z beach: Now I am thinking, I should just allow :metaclass built-in-class instead.
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2015-05-20T04:30:46Z beach: The AMOP explicitly requires errors to be signaled for built-in classes in some situations, but I am thinking I should just make that a separate first-class global environment in the final system.
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2015-05-20T04:31:21Z beach: Can anyone think of some other trouble I would get into if I just use the standard machinery for built-in classes as well?
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2015-05-20T04:33:59Z beach: It would save a lot of code, and therefore a lot of maintenance, if I could just use the existing machinery.
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2015-05-20T04:46:00Z Zhivago: I think that it is hoped for by the standard that build-in classes are standard classes.
2015-05-20T04:46:20Z Zhivago: With the additional constraints on built-in classes to reduce the burden on implementors where this is tricky.
2015-05-20T04:46:54Z beach: Yeah, I see what you mean.
2015-05-20T04:47:52Z beach: I certainly would not want change-class to be applicable on a CONS or a FIXNUM. :)
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2015-05-20T06:46:30Z spacebat`: can a normal function be converted to a generic function without affecting already-compiled call sites? assuming the function was never inlined of course
2015-05-20T06:48:12Z Bike: Probably not?
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2015-05-20T06:49:44Z spacebat`: I'll have to try it out tonight
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2015-05-20T06:51:05Z pillton: It shouldn't be a problem. Calling a generic function is no different to calling a normal function.
2015-05-20T06:51:32Z spacebat`: that was my thought, but I guess it might depend on the implementation if its not in the standard
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2015-05-20T06:53:33Z pillton: Generic functions don't change the evaluation model.
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2015-05-20T06:54:30Z Bike: well i mean, you're talking about redefinition
2015-05-20T06:54:34Z Zhivago: Being functions (or rather procedures).
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2015-05-20T09:17:26Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: hi
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2015-05-20T09:18:59Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: I've got problem compiling on wheezy on a beagleboard black: http://paste.lisp.org/display/148459
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2015-05-20T09:19:57Z loke: is it possible to write a FORMAT string that formats the list '("N1" "N2" "N3") as: "N1, N2 and N3 are online"?
2015-05-20T09:20:13Z loke: I need are to become is if there is only a single element in the list, of course
2015-05-20T09:20:43Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: do you compile with system gmp or included with ecl?
2015-05-20T09:20:53Z jackdaniel: I'd suggest the latter
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2015-05-20T09:25:10Z jackdaniel: tfu, gc not gmp
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2015-05-20T09:26:27Z cadadar1: loke: Practical Common Lisp has some words no basic pluralization and conditional formatting: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/a-few-format-recipes.html
2015-05-20T09:27:03Z loke: cadadar1: I know, that one doesn't cover it. I have read the docs and I'm currently inclined to believe that it's not possible.
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2015-05-20T09:28:55Z jdz: clhs 22.3.7.2
2015-05-20T09:28:55Z specbot: Tilde Left-Bracket: Conditional Expression: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cgb.htm
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2015-05-20T09:43:23Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: what do you mean?
2015-05-20T09:43:42Z Posterdati: I specified ./configure
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2015-05-20T09:51:57Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: check ./configure --help
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2015-05-20T09:52:12Z Posterdati: I added ./configure --with-system-gmp=no
2015-05-20T09:52:17Z Posterdati: now
2015-05-20T09:52:35Z jackdaniel: not gmp, gc should be the one which is included
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2015-05-20T09:52:58Z Posterdati: ok, how can I change that?
2015-05-20T09:52:58Z jackdaniel: at least gc causes errors from log you posted
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2015-05-20T09:53:17Z jackdaniel: find an option in configure --help, I don't have sources on this computer
2015-05-20T09:53:23Z jackdaniel: and don't remember configure flags
2015-05-20T09:53:43Z Posterdati: an option for what?
2015-05-20T09:53:47Z Posterdati: gc?
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2015-05-20T09:54:51Z jackdaniel: configure option contains word "boehm" afair
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2015-05-20T09:55:13Z Posterdati: ./configure boehm
2015-05-20T09:55:14Z Posterdati: ????
2015-05-20T09:55:36Z jackdaniel: ./configure --help | grep boehm
2015-05-20T09:56:00Z Posterdati: --enable-boehm
2015-05-20T09:56:12Z Posterdati: or disable it?
2015-05-20T09:56:26Z jackdaniel: --enable-boehm=included probably
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2015-05-20T09:56:56Z Posterdati: ok thanks
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2015-05-20T09:57:04Z Posterdati: configure: error: Invalid value of --enable-boehm: include
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2015-05-20T09:57:22Z jackdaniel: included, not include
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2015-05-20T09:57:30Z Posterdati: lol yes
2015-05-20T09:57:35Z Posterdati: sorry
2015-05-20T09:57:40Z jackdaniel: type ./configure --help and read, it's not that long ;)
2015-05-20T09:57:55Z Posterdati: yes, but why error on GC_ ?
2015-05-20T09:59:07Z jackdaniel: hm, I think wheezy has some old bdwgc, and some calls were deprecated, and someone contributed update of these calls
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2015-05-20T09:59:18Z jackdaniel: for°
2015-05-20T09:59:21Z Posterdati: goof
2015-05-20T09:59:22Z Posterdati: good
2015-05-20T09:59:47Z jackdaniel: but that's why sources are boundled with ecl - I'm suprised configure didn't pick included version for you automaticly
2015-05-20T09:59:53Z jackdaniel: does it build now?
2015-05-20T10:00:01Z Posterdati: still configuring
2015-05-20T10:00:29Z Posterdati: compiling now
2015-05-20T10:00:31Z jackdaniel: problem might be something else, please fill an issue if that's the case
2015-05-20T10:00:47Z jackdaniel is afk °
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2015-05-20T10:06:18Z abettik_: hi, anyone used cl-gdata here? I'm having trouble with its use of flexistreams and cannot really debug it under sbcl.
2015-05-20T10:09:51Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: it is compiling my friend
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2015-05-20T10:11:45Z loz: does anybody have cl-xmpp example by chance?
2015-05-20T10:13:03Z loz: the one in docs doesn't work for me, and diving into xmpp specs is last thing i want to do now :(
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2015-05-20T10:15:37Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: did you port ecl for mips too?
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2015-05-20T12:55:18Z loz: is there any way to force macro to be expanded at read time?
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2015-05-20T12:59:52Z White_Flame: #.(macro form ...) ?
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2015-05-20T13:00:12Z White_Flame: though it'll be evaluated, not expanded
2015-05-20T13:00:22Z White_Flame: use macroexpand there if you want the literal expansion
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2015-05-20T13:03:00Z loz: White_Flame: how would i do that? i want to be sure macro was expanded before runtime
2015-05-20T13:03:32Z White_Flame: #.(macroexpand ...)
2015-05-20T13:03:42Z H4ns: loz: what are you really trying to do?
2015-05-20T13:03:52Z White_Flame: though read the docs on the expansion options, and test to see that it sits right
2015-05-20T13:04:15Z pjb: loke: "Items:~#[ none~; ~S~; ~S and ~S~:;~@{~#[~; and~] ~S~^ ,~}~]."
2015-05-20T13:04:54Z H4ns: cl:macroexpand is really a debugging and implementor's tool.  if you want to use it in a "normal" program, chances are that you're doing things from to begin with.
2015-05-20T13:05:14Z loz: White_Flame: >The evaluation is done during the read process, when the #. notation is encountered.
2015-05-20T13:05:14Z loz: this is exactly what i need, than you :)
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2015-05-20T13:05:44Z H4ns: things _wrong_, not _from_
2015-05-20T13:06:02Z White_Flame: loz: as H4ns asked, it's important to know what the need is, to know that this is in fact a reasonable solution, and not just a bad workaround
2015-05-20T13:07:14Z loz: White_Flame: H4ns i'm making a macro to get values from config, which fails before runtime if the key is not found
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2015-05-20T13:08:08Z White_Flame: eval-when would seem like a better idea there
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2015-05-20T13:08:47Z H4ns: loz: i think a macro is fine, but why do you need to expand it at read time?
2015-05-20T13:08:56Z H4ns: loz: why does compile time not suffice?
2015-05-20T13:09:01Z flip214: is there something that generates lisp sources from a clang AST representation?
2015-05-20T13:09:26Z loz: H4ns: afaik some implementations can expand macros in runtime
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2015-05-20T13:09:44Z H4ns: loz: all of them can, because all of them can compile at run time.
2015-05-20T13:09:52Z loz: %)
2015-05-20T13:09:57Z White_Flame: everything is "run time" besides bootstrapping
2015-05-20T13:10:09Z H4ns: loz: but then, why do you worry about that?
2015-05-20T13:10:28Z loz: just to be sure all needed configuration options are set
2015-05-20T13:10:58Z H4ns: loz: if you want to worry about code that is assembled and compiled at run time, you're not going to succeed anyway
2015-05-20T13:11:20Z H4ns: loz: because you don't know what code some program generates and feeds to compile.
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2015-05-20T13:12:01Z loz: H4ns: but i'm gonna use #. - it happens at read time..
2015-05-20T13:12:10Z H4ns: loz: why?
2015-05-20T13:13:15Z H4ns: loz: seriously, you're not addressing something that you can address.  check the presence of the configuration option in your macro expansion code.  don't worry about read time.  you're done, you can move on to the next topic. :)
2015-05-20T13:13:34Z pjb: loke: more precisely, in your case; (mapc (lambda (l) (format t "~1{~#[no item~;~S~;~S and ~S~:;~@{~#[~;and ~]~S~^, ~}~]~:} ~:*~1{~#[are~;is~:;are~]~:} online.~%" l)) '(() (n1) (n1 n2) (n1 n2 n3) (n1 n2 n3 n4)))
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2015-05-20T13:14:44Z loz: H4ns: okey, maybe i'm focusing on it too much
2015-05-20T13:14:59Z H4ns: loz: indeed you are :)
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2015-05-20T13:15:03Z pjb: loz: it is possible, but this is most certainly not the case that you want to do that.  At least, you would have to produce a 10 page report in triple copies, to justify committing into one of my projects.
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2015-05-20T13:16:46Z pjb: Read time should be reserved to lexical stuff, and macroexpansion time to metalinguistic stuff.  Write all the rest for run-time, in normal code, otherwise pain will ensure.
2015-05-20T13:16:53Z pjb: s/re./e./
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2015-05-20T14:00:40Z otwieracz: How can I define method which will accept argument of type A or B?
2015-05-20T14:00:47Z otwieracz: Different than copy-paste/
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2015-05-20T14:02:37Z Xach: otwieracz: method selection is based on class, not type
2015-05-20T14:02:48Z otwieracz: Yes, but I have two classes.
2015-05-20T14:02:49Z otwieracz: :)
2015-05-20T14:02:52Z Xach: otwieracz: no.
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2015-05-20T14:03:09Z otwieracz: However, probably I've find better way to do this.,
2015-05-20T14:03:56Z otwieracz: b
2015-05-20T14:03:58Z otwieracz: ooops
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2015-05-20T14:04:31Z pjb: otwieracz: ask again, byt s/type/class/
2015-05-20T14:04:40Z pjb: s/byt/but/
2015-05-20T14:05:21Z pjb: You may define a common superclass.
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2015-05-20T14:06:46Z otwieracz: Yeah, but then I'm running into errors:
2015-05-20T14:06:49Z otwieracz: While computing the class precedence list of the class named PM.WORKER:WORKER.
2015-05-20T14:06:49Z otwieracz: The class named PM.WORKER::API-LISTENER is a forward referenced class.
2015-05-20T14:06:50Z otwieracz: The class named PM.WORKER::API-LISTENER is a direct superclass of the class named PM.WORKER:WORKER. [Condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR]
2015-05-20T14:06:58Z otwieracz: Which, for me, is certainly not a SIMPLE ERROR
2015-05-20T14:07:24Z pjb: You have to define the classes before the methods.
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2015-05-20T14:09:01Z oleo: hello
2015-05-20T14:09:05Z wbooze: hello
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2015-05-20T14:09:35Z otwieracz: pjb: but it's coming out during execution…
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2015-05-20T14:10:52Z otwieracz: ah, ok, got it
2015-05-20T14:12:25Z otwieracz: I am inherigin class package_x:class_y
2015-05-20T14:13:12Z otwieracz: How can I, from the class which is inheriting, init fields of class_y?
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2015-05-20T14:16:23Z otwieracz: Oh, ok. Got it, again. Sorry :)
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2015-05-20T14:22:42Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: did you port ecl on mips too?
2015-05-20T14:23:23Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: it's very probable that ecl works on mips, but it wasn't done by me in that case
2015-05-20T14:23:46Z jackdaniel: afaik most crucial parts are gc, gmp and libffi - ecl code is very portable
2015-05-20T14:23:48Z Posterdati: no is it you
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2015-05-20T14:24:00Z Posterdati: you are responsible for all that
2015-05-20T14:25:18Z jackdaniel: I have different definition of "doing something"
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2015-05-20T14:25:56Z Posterdati: pjb: am I right? :) lol
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2015-05-20T14:26:39Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: lol
2015-05-20T14:27:05Z pjb: Posterdati: you can ask properties of ecl.
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2015-05-20T14:27:25Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: ecl on beaglebone/board is working flawlessy (until now)
2015-05-20T14:27:56Z Posterdati: pjb: does it involve sex with young chicks?
2015-05-20T14:28:11Z pjb:  /ignore Posterdati  is close.
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2015-05-20T15:00:18Z otwieracz: http://paste.lisp.org/display/148482
2015-05-20T15:00:30Z otwieracz: Why clack is not stopping?
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2015-05-20T15:00:47Z otwieracz: (Server still responds and listens)
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2015-05-20T15:01:06Z loz: somehow i get error while accessing object's slot in macro, but its ok when i'm trying same in repl
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2015-05-20T15:01:53Z Xach: loz: that suggests to me you might be using two different symbols
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2015-05-20T15:02:41Z loz: Xach how can i check it?
2015-05-20T15:03:20Z Xach: loz: what error do you get?
2015-05-20T15:04:00Z loz: the inner is
2015-05-20T15:04:01Z loz: unbound condition slot: COMMON-CFG::TEXT
2015-05-20T15:04:01Z loz:    [Condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR]
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2015-05-20T15:04:44Z Xach: What is the name of the slot?
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2015-05-20T15:04:53Z loz: for (text obj), condition is:
2015-05-20T15:04:53Z loz: (define-condition value-not-found (error)  ((text :initarg :text :reader text)))
2015-05-20T15:05:03Z Xach: loz: in that code, what is the home package of TEXT?
2015-05-20T15:05:26Z Xach: oh, sorry. unbound slot is a different issue.
2015-05-20T15:05:55Z Xach: I would have to see more macro code to make any suggestions.
2015-05-20T15:06:00Z loz: #:common-cfg, project is loaded with quicklisp
2015-05-20T15:06:17Z loz: Xach: i can post it, just a sec
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2015-05-20T15:06:56Z loz: Xach: https://gist.github.com/maximvl/91d0c4a3a180a75ce7f5
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2015-05-20T15:14:07Z otwieracz: You don't have any ideas? :(
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2015-05-20T15:15:45Z Xach: otwieracz: I don't think anyone here uses clack
2015-05-20T15:16:49Z mood: I use clack for a simple project of mine, but I never actually stop it. I just quit SBCL
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2015-05-20T15:23:01Z loz: Xach is condition definition correct at least?
2015-05-20T15:24:13Z Xach: loz: yes. but i can't follow why things are done as macros rather than functions, sorry.
2015-05-20T15:24:58Z loz: Xach to throw errors about unknown config keys at compile time :)
2015-05-20T15:25:06Z Xach: loz: That doesn't make any sense to me.
2015-05-20T15:25:23Z Xach: I also have run out of time to think about it, double sorry.
2015-05-20T15:25:42Z loz: i see, no problems, i will investigate later
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2015-05-20T15:28:34Z haxmeister: coming from Racket  and wanting to move to SBCL to take advantage of the broader set of libraries.. is there some suggested reading material that would tutor from the beginning that someone would recomend?
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2015-05-20T15:29:07Z H4ns: haxmeister: 'practical common lisp' is the canonical go-to book for people with prior programming experience
2015-05-20T15:29:36Z haxmeister: is it open license?
2015-05-20T15:29:46Z H4ns: haxmeister: what do you mean by that?
2015-05-20T15:30:06Z H4ns: haxmeister: look for yourself: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2015-05-20T15:30:14Z haxmeister: have to purchase a copy of the book or is it released?
2015-05-20T15:30:16Z haxmeister: oh ok
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2015-05-20T15:31:32Z gr8: which book for learning lisp would you recommend for me getting that "profound enlightening experience" ESR speaks about? I already know some basic Racket if that matters
2015-05-20T15:31:42Z haxmeister: HTDP
2015-05-20T15:31:46Z pjb: No.
2015-05-20T15:31:54Z pjb: gr8: PCL PAIP sicp
2015-05-20T15:32:07Z haxmeister: I hav heard that to
2015-05-20T15:32:11Z oGMo: gr8: one does not achieve enlightenment through reading, only doing
2015-05-20T15:32:18Z pjb: minion: tell gr8 about PCL
2015-05-20T15:32:18Z minion: gr8: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2015-05-20T15:32:21Z pjb: minion: tell gr8 about PAIP
2015-05-20T15:32:21Z minion: gr8: PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming
2015-05-20T15:32:24Z pjb: minion: tell gr8 about sicp
2015-05-20T15:32:24Z minion: gr8: please see sicp: The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available under the CC-BY-NC Licence at <http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/> (HTML), <http://www.neilvandyke.org/sicp-texi/> (Texinfo), and <http://twb.ath.cx/ebooks/sicp.pdf> (PDF). Video lectures are available under the CC-BY-SA licence at <http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/>
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2015-05-20T15:33:05Z haxmeister: minion and H4ns excellent resources thank you both a ton!
2015-05-20T15:33:42Z pjb: gr8: check for more resources on http://cliki.net/
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2015-05-20T15:34:22Z oGMo: gr8: except code .. read a lot of code, too. M-. things and see how they work.
2015-05-20T15:35:05Z gr8: M-. ?
2015-05-20T15:35:44Z gr8: does PAIP require specific knowledge in AI?
2015-05-20T15:35:50Z pjb: A quick way to get a lot of CL code installed: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.tools.quicklisp) (use-package :com.informatimago.tools.quicklisp) (quick-install-all)
2015-05-20T15:36:17Z H4ns: gr8: no, but it requires an interest
2015-05-20T15:36:58Z pjb: (length  (ql-dist:provided-systems t)) --> 3016
2015-05-20T15:37:48Z haxmeister: is eclipse with Cusp a good alternative IDE if I'm not ready to learn Slime yet?
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2015-05-20T15:38:37Z pjb: haxmeister: hard to say.  Very few people use eclipse with Cusp.
2015-05-20T15:38:46Z haxmeister: ok
2015-05-20T15:39:15Z haxmeister: I hashing out if I should install another IDE.. but not ready to dive into one that is hotkey oriented yet
2015-05-20T15:39:17Z oGMo: given the page links are dead, doubtful
2015-05-20T15:39:23Z oGMo: also it's eclipse :p
2015-05-20T15:39:41Z haxmeister: geany does lisp
2015-05-20T15:39:48Z haxmeister: geany does everything
2015-05-20T15:39:49Z haxmeister: lol
2015-05-20T15:40:19Z oGMo: if emacs is too hard for you, you may be in the wrong field :p
2015-05-20T15:40:56Z oGMo: there are menus and extensive help
2015-05-20T15:40:58Z antoszka: gr8: in Peter Norvig's own words PAIP has become mostly outdated as an AI course, but remains a very good Common Lisp course (with a really beautiful style IMO)
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2015-05-20T15:41:14Z pjb: And emacs is more fun anyways since you can enhance it writing lisp code, while you'd need to write java code to enhance eclipse or Cusp.
2015-05-20T15:41:56Z haxmeister: oGMo: not to hard.. just didn't want to learn an IDE so much right now.. I been intending to eventually learn emacs and slime because I trust the recommendations of countless other programmers.
2015-05-20T15:42:21Z haxmeister: maybe I should jump in it then
2015-05-20T15:42:50Z haxmeister: jus say screw it.. I have a head start from Racket anyway... shouldn't be to bad learning emacs at the same time right?
2015-05-20T15:43:52Z oGMo: haxmeister: just jump in, read the tutorial bit, and use help/google and you should be fine
2015-05-20T15:44:11Z haxmeister: damnit I think I'm gonna do it
2015-05-20T15:44:14Z Shinmera: I switched from NetBeans&Java to Emacs&CL at the same time. Wasn't a problem, really and haven't regretted either switch
2015-05-20T15:44:25Z haxmeister: it will be a tremendously fun challenge and experience
2015-05-20T15:44:57Z haxmeister: any gentoo users here?
2015-05-20T15:45:17Z oGMo: it's slightly arcane in some ways, but for CL it's worth it... for other things, maybe not
2015-05-20T15:45:31Z oGMo: haxmeister: yes though a bit off-topic
2015-05-20T15:45:43Z oGMo: haxmeister: don't install CL via gentoo's stuff if that's even still around
2015-05-20T15:46:05Z haxmeister: well I'm on Funtoo.. so I have a significant amount of package support from my distro devs
2015-05-20T15:46:25Z haxmeister: but wanted to make sure I got the lisp distro I intended.. because I want to do SBCL
2015-05-20T15:46:49Z haxmeister: I found it though.. I got the right one coming down right now w00t!
2015-05-20T15:47:23Z haxmeister: dev-lisp/sbcl-1.2.11
2015-05-20T15:47:44Z haxmeister: app-emacs/slime-2.12
2015-05-20T15:47:56Z haxmeister: :-D
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2015-05-20T16:45:23Z kami`: Good evening.
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2015-05-20T17:08:43Z Petit_Dejeuner: Is half of #lispcafe bots or am I finally losing it?
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2015-05-20T17:13:37Z Oladon: Does this have to be an either/or situation?
2015-05-20T17:14:17Z Shinmera: Should I send Colleen over as well?
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2015-05-20T17:36:52Z otwieracz: Anyone using context in ningle?
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2015-05-20T18:18:32Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner: you're losing it.
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2015-05-20T18:47:48Z loz1: how do i update quicklisp's systems list?
2015-05-20T18:47:53Z loz1: or should i?
2015-05-20T18:48:31Z mood: loz1: You can use (ql:update-all-dists)
2015-05-20T18:49:07Z loz1: mood: it will update installed systems, isn't it?
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2015-05-20T18:49:32Z mood: Yes, it will, if they were updated in a more recent QL dist release
2015-05-20T18:49:59Z loz1: i see, thanks)
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2015-05-20T18:59:14Z Petit_Dejeuner: pjb, Maybe it's just my terrible connection.
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2015-05-20T19:20:25Z ebrasca: hi
2015-05-20T19:21:17Z oleo_:  ellooouuuuuuhhhh
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2015-05-20T19:25:02Z ebrasca: my repl say http://pastebin.com/KZqnmqFp
2015-05-20T19:25:31Z ebrasca: this is sbcl bug?
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2015-05-20T19:25:57Z oleo_: no wonder, it's sdl2.....
2015-05-20T19:26:13Z oGMo: ebrasca: did you segfault etc your sbcl at any point?
2015-05-20T19:26:14Z oleo_: sdl2 is not stable yet or not complete it seems
2015-05-20T19:26:33Z oGMo: it's pretty stable last i checked :P
2015-05-20T19:26:39Z oleo_: hmmm
2015-05-20T19:26:49Z oGMo: SBCL had some GC issues at some point but i forget if i could reproduce them recently
2015-05-20T19:27:24Z oleo_: oO
2015-05-20T19:27:38Z oGMo: my guess is image corruption is more likely here especially if GL is involved
2015-05-20T19:27:50Z oleo_: like dangling pointers ?
2015-05-20T19:27:54Z oGMo: no
2015-05-20T19:28:30Z oGMo: it was pretty easy to reproduce a segfault in sbcl by doing literally no more than SDL_Init() and SDL_Quit()
2015-05-20T19:28:51Z oGMo: the code for those is pretty easy to read and pretty innocuous
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2015-05-20T19:29:29Z oGMo: CCL and other CL's had no issues; arguably something could be invisibly corrupting things elsewhere, but i encountered nothing after lots and lots of use
2015-05-20T19:30:32Z oGMo: otoh i stopped doing lots of init/quit after sdl2kit, so it became less of an issue anyway
2015-05-20T19:30:35Z oleo_: hmm, maybe threading issue then....
2015-05-20T19:30:57Z oGMo: it's possible, but SDL itself doesn't create threads implicitly iirc
2015-05-20T19:31:33Z oleo_: ja, but the object system does....afaik
2015-05-20T19:31:43Z oGMo: ?
2015-05-20T19:31:46Z oleo_: and i suppose sdl uses it....
2015-05-20T19:32:07Z oleo_: clos... the underlying system...
2015-05-20T19:32:57Z oleo_: the fault maybe even on the X side.....
2015-05-20T19:33:04Z oGMo: no, cl-sdl2 itself creates a thread so all operations can run on it, but as i recall it happened either way
2015-05-20T19:33:28Z oleo_: anyway sounds pretty brittle still....
2015-05-20T19:33:30Z oGMo: cl-sdl2 doesn't use much clos i don't think
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2015-05-20T19:34:25Z oleo_: tracking stuff is difficult anyway....
2015-05-20T19:34:29Z oGMo: i guess that depends on your definition.. you have to make sure some stuff happens in a particular thread, but that applies to just about everything
2015-05-20T19:34:58Z oGMo: o.O
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2015-05-20T19:36:39Z oleo_: afaik some signals on some platforms are buggy sbcl wise....
2015-05-20T19:36:52Z oleo_: maybe it changed in the meantime....
2015-05-20T19:37:22Z oleo_: not sure if x86_64 was affected ....
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2015-05-20T19:38:28Z oleo_: and there's reports for sbcl that many library writers don't do it right.....
2015-05-20T19:38:39Z oleo_: i mean threading....
2015-05-20T19:39:05Z oleo_: even with a proposal to correct that, in the sbcl internals manual as far as i recall....
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2015-05-20T19:40:18Z oleo_: i haven't done much with threading yet, even in C i just tested some linux code from the linux programmers book....
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2015-05-20T19:44:57Z ebrasca: post it in sbcl?
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2015-05-20T19:47:41Z oleo_: not to mention that threading itself is considered even mathly unsound (from some ieee paper)
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2015-05-20T19:50:59Z oleo_: maybe there's just a stable core around wich you can keep program behaviour stable....
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2015-05-20T19:53:20Z Xach: oleo_: if you don't have any real info, please don't discuss it.
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2015-05-20T20:02:25Z Ralt: hello
2015-05-20T20:02:28Z Ralt: is there a way to know if a method is callable on an object?
2015-05-20T20:02:34Z Ralt: if I have the method's symbol
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2015-05-20T20:04:47Z Shinmera: You can't have a method's symbol.
2015-05-20T20:04:53Z Shinmera: You can only have a generic function's symbol.
2015-05-20T20:05:15Z Shinmera: And do you want to know whether an applicable method exists at all for a given generic function and set of argument/s?
2015-05-20T20:05:22Z Shinmera: Or what is it that you want to find out exactly?
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2015-05-20T20:07:04Z jackdaniel: hm, is #lisp a general channel on lisp, or rather particulary cl?
2015-05-20T20:07:12Z Shinmera: Check the topic.
2015-05-20T20:07:20Z jackdaniel: i did
2015-05-20T20:07:23Z jackdaniel: still curious
2015-05-20T20:07:25Z Shinmera: Then you'll know the answer.
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2015-05-20T20:07:42Z jackdaniel: \o/
2015-05-20T20:07:43Z Shinmera: ##lisp is for general lisps.
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2015-05-20T20:08:25Z ehu starts #common-lisp
2015-05-20T20:09:35Z Xach: jackdaniel: it's for common lisp
2015-05-20T20:09:38Z jackdaniel: I've asked it on lispcafe, but no definitive answer there - why #lisp isn't about whole lisp family? name would indicate that. ##lisp sounds more like fan-channel (according to freenodes rules)
2015-05-20T20:09:52Z Shinmera: Because history.
2015-05-20T20:10:03Z Ralt: Shinmera: on one side, I have a symbol 'foo. On another side, I have (defmethod foo ((object bar))). I want to know if I can call "foo" if I have a "bar" object. The defmethod is not always there
2015-05-20T20:10:05Z jackdaniel: #common-lisp would sound more reasonably
2015-05-20T20:10:23Z Shinmera: Ralt: What do you mean "the defmethod is not always there"?
2015-05-20T20:10:30Z oleo_: methods are attached to gfs
2015-05-20T20:11:07Z Ralt: Shinmera: it's a base class I provide, where no such method is provided. If the method exists (i.e. is implemented by someone using my library), I'll call it
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2015-05-20T20:11:49Z ehu: jackdaniel: now it exists :-)
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2015-05-20T20:12:21Z jackdaniel: sounds good :)
2015-05-20T20:13:06Z oleo_: so then your method is specialized on object class bar objects
2015-05-20T20:13:29Z Shinmera: Ralt: Just provide a base method specialised on T that doesn't do anything and always call it.
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2015-05-20T20:13:50Z Ralt: Shinmera: I don't know the method. It's a dynamic symbol
2015-05-20T20:16:48Z Ralt: I'll expand on what I want to do, I guess
2015-05-20T20:16:59Z Ralt: hmmm
2015-05-20T20:17:15Z Ralt: I don't need that, actually
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2015-05-20T20:19:01Z kami`: when using named registers in cl-ppcre, can I use them by name in regex-replace?
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2015-05-20T21:00:53Z pjb: Ralt: there's a find-method operator.
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2015-05-20T21:02:18Z pjb: Ralt: notice that in a method, you can use next-method-p.
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2015-05-20T21:08:06Z Ralt: pjb: thanks!
2015-05-20T21:08:46Z Shinmera: There's also COMPUTE-APPLICABLE-METHODS
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2015-05-20T21:21:30Z Adlai: clhs find-method
2015-05-20T21:21:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_m.htm
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2015-05-20T22:28:55Z dkcl: <dkcl> "#lisp-es es un canal por los usuarios Lisp hispano-hablantes. (Si no nadie para responder en #lisp-es, puedes llamar a algun hispano-hablante en #lisp)."  [00:24]
2015-05-20T22:28:55Z dkcl: <dkcl> Anyone I should PM a correction to?
2015-05-20T22:28:55Z dkcl: <dkcl> Well, I don't really care, so I'll just leave it here -- "#lisp-es es un canal para usuarios de Lisp hispanohablantes (si nadie responde en #lisp-es, puedes llamar a un hispanohablante en #lisp)"  [00:25]
2015-05-20T22:28:58Z dkcl: <dkcl> "llamar a un" could remain "llamar a algun", but the rest is rather incorrect  [00:26]
2015-05-20T22:29:12Z dkcl: I said that in #lispcafe but perhaps it should be here
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2015-05-20T22:31:10Z dkcl: Uh, that is regarding http://cliki.net/IRC
2015-05-20T22:31:14Z dkcl: Sorry, I'm slightly sleep-deprived
2015-05-20T22:32:09Z Shinmera: Just edit the page? There's a button at the bottom.
2015-05-20T22:33:22Z Shinmera is off to sleep himself
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2015-05-20T22:38:22Z dkcl: I'm really not going to bother, but anyone is free to do so
2015-05-20T22:39:45Z dkcl: The current text is comically incorrect
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2015-05-20T22:55:59Z jlarocco_work: @dkcl: I just updated to a copy/paste of the text you psoted
2015-05-20T22:56:06Z jlarocco_work: posted
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2015-05-20T22:57:38Z dkcl: jlarocco_work: Sounds good, thanks
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2015-05-21T00:42:58Z loke: Hello and good morning
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2015-05-21T00:45:17Z jaimef: morning beach
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2015-05-21T00:47:20Z loke: Is beach here?
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2015-05-21T00:49:46Z pillton: G'day loke.
2015-05-21T00:49:54Z loke: Hello pillton
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2015-05-21T01:10:52Z theos: hey
2015-05-21T01:11:02Z loke: what's going on?
2015-05-21T01:11:33Z theos: just woke up *yawns*
2015-05-21T01:11:59Z loke: theos: Oh yeah, youre in asia too
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2015-05-21T01:12:07Z loke: chiang mai was it?
2015-05-21T01:12:22Z theos: India
2015-05-21T01:12:29Z loke: Ah
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2015-05-21T01:12:40Z loke: Then you're getting up really early.
2015-05-21T01:13:19Z theos: 6am everyday :)
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2015-05-21T01:14:00Z loke: theos: You got a long commute to work?
2015-05-21T01:14:42Z Xach: time for a local conference
2015-05-21T01:14:53Z loke: Xach: Hello
2015-05-21T01:14:58Z loke: what conference is that
2015-05-21T01:15:33Z theos: loke i work from home :D i just like to wake up with the sun. more time for lisp and stuff
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2015-05-21T01:17:41Z Xach: loke: i don't know. i guess there was an ilc in asia not long ago.
2015-05-21T01:18:02Z loke: Xach: was there? If so, I'm sad I missed it
2015-05-21T01:18:43Z theos: any conference in india? :<
2015-05-21T01:18:56Z loke: Should be Singapore.
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2015-05-21T01:21:11Z theos: India has like 1.4billion people and almost nobody knows about CL :/ what a shame. i wish we had local CL meets
2015-05-21T01:21:47Z loke: theos: which city are you in?
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2015-05-21T01:22:28Z Xach: loke: japan a few years ago
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2015-05-21T01:22:40Z Xach worked with a CL team based in nepal for a while
2015-05-21T01:22:45Z loke: In japan, everything tends to be in japanese :-(
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2015-05-21T01:23:05Z theos: loke i live in different cities in different seasons. mainly new delhi, bangalore, noida
2015-05-21T01:23:21Z loke: I see. I only spent time in Mumbai
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2015-05-21T01:28:56Z pillton: Anyone know of some writing which explores the differences between (in-package "ASDF") and (in-package #:asdf) ?
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2015-05-21T01:29:24Z Bike: not a whole lot to explore, just readtable-case
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2015-05-21T01:29:38Z Xach: pillton: i don't know of any discussion, except to the extent that the symbol is used only for its name
2015-05-21T01:33:00Z pillton: Bike: Well if you are a library writer and your user messes with readtable-case then the string version is likely to be annoying.
2015-05-21T01:33:16Z pillton: Especially if you use strings in your export list.
2015-05-21T01:33:55Z pillton: Someone asked me this week and I didn't have a good answer.
2015-05-21T01:34:38Z pillton: I am guessing that uninterned symbols for everything makes the most sense.
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2015-05-21T01:42:02Z Xach: some people like keywords, or interned symbols.
2015-05-21T01:44:44Z pillton: Yes. I know. I just prefer uninterned symbols as they are non destructive on packages.
2015-05-21T01:46:15Z Zhivago: They also avoid the case issue.
2015-05-21T01:47:42Z pillton: Yes, that was my thinking as well.
2015-05-21T01:49:00Z Zhivago: The only downside is that they're kind of fuggly.
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2015-05-21T02:01:49Z loke: Zhivago: Buold a reader macro for it?
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2015-05-21T02:02:54Z Zhivago: Hard to imagine that being less ugly. :)
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2015-05-21T03:17:23Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-05-21T03:17:51Z pillton: G'day beach!
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2015-05-21T03:22:17Z loke: Zhivago: It can be less ugly. How about parsing ⓕⓞⓞ as #.(symbol-name #:foo) ?
2015-05-21T03:22:44Z loke: (for appropriate values of "less", of course)
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2015-05-21T03:23:41Z Zhivago: That appears as gibberish here, unfortunately.
2015-05-21T03:23:50Z loke: Zhivago: broken fonts?
2015-05-21T03:24:04Z Zhivago: Probably broken decoding.
2015-05-21T03:24:11Z loke: Bad encoding? (although I thought encoding issues in irc was solved these days)
2015-05-21T03:24:40Z pillton: No. You still can't send a new line. :)
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2015-05-21T03:32:55Z kristof: Thank god you can't
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2015-05-21T03:36:11Z Bike: circled latin small letter foo, huh. it is not in my font
2015-05-21T03:37:54Z pinterface1 idly wonders if the newline restriction is limited to U+0A or if it includes U+2028.
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2015-05-21T03:39:05Z theos: does ⓕⓞⓞ still break people's screens?
2015-05-21T03:40:09Z Zhivago: It just makes you look stupid.
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2015-05-21T03:49:57Z loke: Bike: You don't have the circled letters in your fonts?
2015-05-21T03:50:05Z loke: Bike: You ahev to fix that
2015-05-21T03:50:28Z Bike: well, not in my terminal font.
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2015-05-21T03:54:27Z egrep: My screen seems to be many, glued together chunks. Not broken, as far as screens go these days.
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2015-05-21T04:58:15Z kami: good morning
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2015-05-21T05:02:09Z oleo_: morning
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2015-05-21T05:03:34Z beach: Hello kami.
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2015-05-21T05:24:14Z ARYAN1488: anyone else believes in preserving the sanctity and beauty of perfection?
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2015-05-21T05:27:00Z Zhivago: Please die in a fire.
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2015-05-21T05:27:18Z ARYAN1488: Zhivago: why are you so mean?
2015-05-21T05:27:50Z ARYAN1488: lisp is a pure language
2015-05-21T05:27:54Z ARYAN1488: and we must keep it that way
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2015-05-21T05:30:27Z spacebat`: haskell is much more pure
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2015-05-21T05:51:50Z emaczen: How can I programatically create a keyword?
2015-05-21T05:52:00Z H4ns: (intern "FOO" :keyword)
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2015-05-21T05:55:18Z ARYAN1488 [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has been kicked from #lisp by p_l (Well, CL is quite impure, and don't try to claim combining that nick and those lines wasn't trolling…)
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2015-05-21T06:00:45Z spacebat`: nice kick p_l
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2015-05-21T06:04:17Z White_Flame: it's funny, since Common Lisp is explicitly multi-parent mixed-breed offspring of the Lisps that came before it ;)
2015-05-21T06:05:52Z Lycurgus: the whole use of language with terms like "clean", "pure", usw would be slightly distressing if you couldn't be big/sophisticated about lang use
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2015-05-21T06:08:51Z Lycurgus: CL is definitely the received lisp, purity is off semantically somehow, but something like how white light is all the colors combined and therefore pure white light is the case. Would be moreso if it could somehow subsume scheme too.
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2015-05-21T06:19:53Z beach: Terminology such as "pure", "clean", "hygienic", "strong", "dynamic" and their opposites can be thought of as "politically" motivated.
2015-05-21T06:20:32Z jackdaniel: that sounds more like a talk for lispcafe ;-)
2015-05-21T06:20:45Z beach: Good point.  I'll drop it now.
2015-05-21T06:21:25Z jackdaniel had a hope to bring more ppl there, since he's constraints himself not to talk about *stuff* here, but most of guys here aren't /there/
2015-05-21T06:21:28Z jackdaniel: ;]
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2015-05-21T06:23:12Z Shinmera: I'm not there exactly because I appreciate not having my IRC client light up about chatter constantly.
2015-05-21T06:23:22Z Shinmera: In lisp news, ABCD is making progress. https://twitter.com/Shinmera/status/600936534045564928
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2015-05-21T08:23:38Z spacebat`: Shinmera: I guess that could have an interesting intersection with drmeister's clasp
2015-05-21T08:24:58Z Shinmera: Clasp is the primary reason I'm working on this to begin with.
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2015-05-21T08:25:52Z spacebat`: there was a blog post some time back demonstrating building ECL with C++, I wasn't aware that was supported
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2015-05-21T08:26:12Z Shinmera: Clasp's build process is a mess and I'd like to move as much as possible in Clasp to CL. The build system is one of the things that don't require me to actually have C++ programming experience, so it's something I can tackle.
2015-05-21T08:27:04Z spacebat`: I love your work BTW
2015-05-21T08:27:11Z Shinmera: Ah, why thank you.
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2015-05-21T08:27:29Z spacebat`: is there a way to make a symbol aliased like in emacs lisp
2015-05-21T08:28:10Z spacebat`: I have a symbol that I'd like to move, but actually it would be a pain to go change all the places referring to it in its current package
2015-05-21T08:28:52Z Shinmera: What does it mean to "move" a symbol?
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2015-05-21T08:29:03Z spacebat`: change where it is declared
2015-05-21T08:29:13Z spacebat`: along with its 'home package'
2015-05-21T08:29:33Z spacebat`: I just tried an import experiment, of A::X into package B, but then package C can't refer to it as B::X
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2015-05-21T08:30:08Z spacebat`: in elisp you can alias one symbol to another, but that's without packages of course
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2015-05-21T08:30:41Z spacebat`: I guess I'll have to refactor - which means a separate commit, but commits are cheap
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2015-05-21T08:32:26Z spacebat`: must commute now, cheers
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2015-05-21T08:32:41Z Shinmera: ? If you IMPORT a::foo into :b you can access b::foo no problem
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2015-05-21T09:49:54Z elderK: Hey peeps.
2015-05-21T09:50:03Z elderK: I was wondering what approach you take when doing binary IO?
2015-05-21T09:50:20Z elderK: I've been taking a look at Practical Common Lisp and the method he seems to like is defining macros, like, define-binary-class.
2015-05-21T09:50:25Z elderK: Which is neat and all.
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2015-05-21T09:50:40Z elderK: But I'm curious as to how you guys would go about something like loading a TGA file or something :)
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2015-05-21T09:54:37Z jackdaniel: elderK: there is package binary-formats
2015-05-21T09:54:42Z jackdaniel: or something°
2015-05-21T09:54:53Z jackdaniel: it's nice for parsing binary data
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2015-05-21T09:55:14Z elderK: cliki?
2015-05-21T09:55:18Z jackdaniel: other approach would be using cffi
2015-05-21T09:55:37Z elderK: It'd be nice if we could do it entirely via Lisp.
2015-05-21T09:55:45Z elderK: I liked the idea of how PCL does it.
2015-05-21T09:55:49Z elderK: (define-binary-class ....)
2015-05-21T09:56:01Z elderK: but I was just thinking you'd need to extend it to allow for slots to be other 'binary classes'
2015-05-21T09:56:30Z jackdaniel: let me cliki that for you; http://cliki.net/Binary-types
2015-05-21T09:58:04Z elderK: THanks jack.
2015-05-21T09:58:43Z jackdaniel: yw :)
2015-05-21T09:58:51Z elderK: HOw so?
2015-05-21T09:58:56Z elderK: :)
2015-05-21T09:59:03Z elderK: Like...
2015-05-21T09:59:14Z elderK: HHHHmmm.
2015-05-21T10:01:03Z jackdaniel: I don't quite get it. By yw I meant "You're welcome."
2015-05-21T10:01:55Z elderK: Sorry - I accidentally cross posted between channels.
2015-05-21T10:02:11Z elderK: Man, I have so many questions!
2015-05-21T10:02:13Z elderK: Like take parsers.
2015-05-21T10:02:27Z elderK: I'm from the C world so I'm used to creating state transition tables as giant arrays.
2015-05-21T10:02:37Z elderK: I guess here you'd use a cond or a hash table.
2015-05-21T10:02:38Z elderK: ?
2015-05-21T10:03:19Z jackdaniel: idk, I believe it depends on personal taste and capabilities
2015-05-21T10:03:29Z elderK: Capabilities?
2015-05-21T10:03:53Z jackdaniel: hm, experience to use more accurate word
2015-05-21T10:04:31Z elderK: :)
2015-05-21T10:05:14Z elderK: What's the deal with tail call optimization in CL?
2015-05-21T10:05:17Z elderK: Any chance SBCL has that?
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2015-05-21T10:06:29Z jackdaniel: it has afaik
2015-05-21T10:06:45Z jackdaniel: but I'm not 100% sure
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2015-05-21T10:06:52Z elderK: Sorry about that!
2015-05-21T10:07:02Z jackdaniel: why sorry?
2015-05-21T10:07:21Z loke: elderK: It does
2015-05-21T10:07:22Z elderK: Disconnected :) Not sure if I missed something or not.
2015-05-21T10:07:28Z elderK: loke: Awesome.
2015-05-21T10:07:29Z jackdaniel: not being sure about certain things is a good thing. People who are sure about everything are plain ignorant and/or arrogant
2015-05-21T10:07:32Z loke: elderK: If optimisation level is appropriate
2015-05-21T10:07:39Z elderK: That means instead of using a giant state table, I could just have a bunch of functions.
2015-05-21T10:07:42Z loke: elderK: You should never rely on it though.
2015-05-21T10:07:56Z elderK: And each function would be a state, the transitions going out would just be other functions.
2015-05-21T10:07:57Z jackdaniel: it's not imposed by a language spec
2015-05-21T10:08:01Z elderK: Nuts.
2015-05-21T10:08:03Z jackdaniel: sbcl isn't only cl implementation
2015-05-21T10:08:23Z elderK: Aye.
2015-05-21T10:08:50Z jackdaniel: I mean - what's the point to insist on "pure" lisp you claimed earlier, if you write non-portable code ;p
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2015-05-21T10:09:55Z elderK: That's very true.
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2015-05-21T10:10:08Z elderK: I really want to start using Lisp as my primary language.
2015-05-21T10:10:16Z elderK: But at the same time, I'm so afraid of making constant mistakes and writing bad lisp.
2015-05-21T10:10:19Z elderK: Which is funny, you know.
2015-05-21T10:10:28Z elderK: I swear to God, the older I get, the more afraid I am of making mistakes.
2015-05-21T10:10:33Z elderK: WHich is not the way to be.
2015-05-21T10:10:36Z elderK: Mistakes, good. LEarning, good.
2015-05-21T10:11:00Z elderK: It's just time is so precious, I guess, that I'm afraid of spending it making mistakes.
2015-05-21T10:11:02Z jackdaniel: my personal and very arguable opinion is that you learn good practices by making mistakes and paying for them ;)
2015-05-21T10:11:03Z elderK: Ah well.
2015-05-21T10:11:06Z elderK: :)
2015-05-21T10:11:39Z jackdaniel: at least you start to understand good practices instead of dumbfully following guidelines
2015-05-21T10:12:00Z elderK: jackdaniel: Very true.
2015-05-21T10:12:14Z elderK: And it's better to spend some time making mistakes and learning, than staying away and never learning anything at all.
2015-05-21T10:12:17Z elderK: :)
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2015-05-21T10:12:51Z jackdaniel: I think we share similar point of view (-: neverless, I'm afk now o/
2015-05-21T10:12:55Z elderK updates his chicken package for Crux
2015-05-21T10:13:04Z elderK: Seeya jackdaniel !
2015-05-21T10:13:06Z elderK: Thanks for your help :)
2015-05-21T10:13:20Z jackdaniel: :)
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2015-05-21T10:57:03Z jackdaniel: hm, is there something like (with-macro-character ((stream char) &body body) ...) ?
2015-05-21T10:59:51Z Xach: jackdaniel: what would that do?
2015-05-21T11:01:42Z jackdaniel: pardon, (with-macro-character (function (stream char) &body body) ...)
2015-05-21T11:02:47Z jackdaniel: or something similar (haven't put much tought on exact lambda list) - locall will use macro-character associated with given function
2015-05-21T11:03:10Z jackdaniel: and after block of body will revert previous behaviour
2015-05-21T11:03:27Z jackdaniel: s/locall/locally/
2015-05-21T11:03:45Z Xach: jackdaniel: it will read from the stream with that macro character temporarily in the readtable?
2015-05-21T11:03:54Z Xach: jackdaniel: or read ... that way?
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2015-05-21T11:04:57Z jackdaniel: both are interesting, but latter - will read body that way (thereof probably now stream parameter is necessary)
2015-05-21T11:05:03Z jackdaniel: s/now/no/
2015-05-21T11:07:12Z Xach: jackdaniel: it's impossible. the entire form must be read before evaluating it.
2015-05-21T11:07:29Z Xach: jackdaniel: you have to introduce a new thing, like a macro character, to intercept reading.
2015-05-21T11:07:53Z jackdaniel: ok, I see that now
2015-05-21T11:07:56Z Xach: I think let over lambda does something like ~(foo bar [new syntax]) to make it happen.
2015-05-21T11:08:01Z jackdaniel: and first option? reading from string?
2015-05-21T11:08:07Z jackdaniel: from stream°
2015-05-21T11:08:33Z Xach: jackdaniel: sure, that would be easy to do, just copy and bind *readtable*
2015-05-21T11:09:13Z jackdaniel: ok, thanks
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2015-05-21T11:57:12Z pjb: jackdaniel: of course, it is perfectly possible: just write a reader macro on #\( to detect when you read (with-reader-macro (ch (stream) . body1) . body2).
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2015-05-21T12:30:42Z fathan: Hello :)
2015-05-21T12:30:48Z theos: hi
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2015-05-21T12:36:01Z kami: Hi eudoxia
2015-05-21T12:36:06Z eudoxia: hi kami
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2015-05-21T12:36:37Z kami: I contacted Alexey or Oleksii, the original author of cl-libssh2
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2015-05-21T12:36:50Z kami: He responded very quickly.
2015-05-21T12:37:28Z kami: He doesn't have much time but welcomes cooperation and has moved the repo to github.
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2015-05-21T12:38:06Z kami: Would you mind if I ported your changes into his repo?
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2015-05-21T12:38:40Z eudoxia: cool, go ahead
2015-05-21T12:38:58Z eudoxia: then we can excise libssh2 from trivial-ssh
2015-05-21T12:39:51Z kami: eudoxia: I thought we keep your api in cl-libssh2.
2015-05-21T12:40:03Z kami: Do you plan to support other ssh client libraries?
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2015-05-21T12:44:58Z loz: about my yesterday's problem - adding an :initial-form to my error class somehow solved the problem)
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2015-05-21T12:45:48Z eudoxia: kami: no, i just vendored my working copy of libssh2 into the library because it worked. it we can move it to its own library, that's better. i don't plan on supporting multiple libraries, it's just about separation of concerns.
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2015-05-21T12:47:14Z eudoxia: multiple ssh client libraries*
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2015-05-21T12:50:46Z kami: eudoxia: I think your download-file, upload-file etc. functions would perfectly fit into cl-libssh2.
2015-05-21T12:51:24Z kami: but of course, it's your lib :)
2015-05-21T12:51:35Z eudoxia: kami: i think they should remain separate. as in, cl-libssh2 is the "bare" CFFI interface, and trivial-ssh as the higher-level (as the name implies) interface
2015-05-21T12:51:53Z eudoxia adds a note to fix the naming convention of trivial-ssh class names
2015-05-21T12:52:48Z kami: I see. I will send you an email when I have applied your cleanup changes.
2015-05-21T12:52:57Z eudoxia: ok
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2015-05-21T13:24:36Z kami: capitaomorte`: I'm trying to understand snooze. Can you point me to an application which uses it?
2015-05-21T13:24:47Z luis: Is there a portable way to register the stream positions of forms during pretty printing? I tried to do that with set-pprint-dispatch but it doesn't work because the output is buffered. http://paste.lisp.org/display/148516
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2015-05-21T13:31:40Z Xach: luis: what did you expect to see instead of what you got?
2015-05-21T13:31:44Z Xach: or hope to see?
2015-05-21T13:31:55Z Xach does not understand the attempt or the output, sorry
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2015-05-21T13:33:45Z luis: Xach: I hoped to see ((UNLESS T (FOO) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 (FOO) 11 12 13 14 15 16) or something like that
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2015-05-21T13:35:20Z luis: The stream collects the character positions as they are written, the pprint-dispatch collects cons as they are printed. I hoped that the two things would be interleaved
2015-05-21T13:35:59Z luis: Instead what I see is that the conses are pretty printed to some buffer first, and only afterwards is the whole thing written to the stream.
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2015-05-21T13:44:23Z luis: My current solution is to read back the pretty-printed output, and do a similar tracking stream hack on the readtable. But it's not a great solution.
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2015-05-21T13:58:36Z luis: Xach: does that it make more sense now?
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2015-05-21T14:01:27Z Xach: yes, thanks
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2015-05-21T15:04:53Z failproofshark: hello
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2015-05-21T15:27:57Z elderK: Jeez.
2015-05-21T15:28:05Z elderK: Took me awhile but CFFI's constantenum and cenum things are a little bit... not obvious :)
2015-05-21T15:28:08Z elderK: Once you use them
2015-05-21T15:28:16Z elderK: you have to use cffi:foreign-enum-value to actually get an enumerants value
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2015-05-21T15:28:41Z elderK: It's a shame that you can't tell CFFI how you'd like the resulting constants named, if define-constants is set to non-nil.
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2015-05-21T15:44:49Z theos: are there ways to start a CL program other than a CL implementation?
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2015-05-21T15:45:50Z failproofshark: theos: there's shelly
2015-05-21T15:46:02Z White_Flame: theos: most CLs allow saving the current state of the lisp environment to an executable file, along with which function to execute on startup
2015-05-21T15:46:06Z failproofshark: and a few others i cant remember unfortunately
2015-05-21T15:46:28Z White_Flame: but really, what do you mean by "program"?  If by source code, then of course you need an environment.  If you mean a binary executable, well, run it!
2015-05-21T15:47:49Z theos: i see thanks
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2015-05-21T15:49:07Z White_Flame: best practice would be to have a script/function that programmatically loads everything up from scratch and outputs the executable.  I'm sure there's packages out there to do so, but we've ritten our own long ago
2015-05-21T15:49:21Z White_Flame: ...written
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2015-05-21T15:50:14Z H4ns: that program is called "buildapp"
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2015-05-21T15:52:19Z White_Flame: in what we built, the exact same loader/init configs the interactive slime environment and the binary output, which is nice for consistency
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2015-05-21T15:54:27Z theos: sbcl has buildapp but it appears to be very basic
2015-05-21T15:55:55Z H4ns: theos: what is missing?
2015-05-21T15:56:35Z theos: H4ns you cant input a file. just type each line one by one with --eval
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2015-05-21T15:57:09Z White_Flame: --load, --load-system
2015-05-21T15:58:24Z Xach: theos: --load loads a file
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2015-05-21T15:59:46Z theos: Xach oh. i somehow miss the --load example. now i see it. thanks. good work once again!
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2015-05-21T16:04:01Z gko: Is there an equivalent to clisp's CUSTOM:*LOAD-PATHS* in SBCL?
2015-05-21T16:04:20Z akkad: sb-posix:chdir?
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2015-05-21T16:05:07Z Xach: gko: no
2015-05-21T16:06:04Z gko: So, my best option is to play with *default-pathname-defaults*?
2015-05-21T16:06:23Z Xach: gko: that is normally not necessary. what are you doing that makes you feel like you want to do that?
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2015-05-21T16:07:06Z gko: I want to load without having to put directory in names...
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2015-05-21T16:08:23Z White_Flame: ASDF is intended when you get to that basic level of complexity
2015-05-21T16:08:33Z Xach: gko: I usually use C-c C-l for that. But when I don't have it in a buffer, I usually use asdf or quicklisp loading commands and and load the system it's in.
2015-05-21T16:08:40Z White_Flame: define your system to load, where its dirs & files are, then asdf load it
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2015-05-21T16:09:20Z White_Flame: or yeah, ~/quicklisp/local-projects/
2015-05-21T16:09:25Z jdz: gko: also, if you're using slime, there's the ,cd command
2015-05-21T16:09:36Z White_Flame: drop an .asd file in there describing what files to load, and you're golden
2015-05-21T16:10:20Z White_Flame: (technically, ~/quicklisp/local-projects/*/*.asd, to be precise)
2015-05-21T16:10:57Z gko: I know about asdf, quicklisp, etc., it was just a general question to see if I could avoid these in some cases.
2015-05-21T16:11:42Z White_Flame: beyond that, why not a little script with (load "../dir/whatever.lisp") clauses?
2015-05-21T16:11:55Z oGMo: avoiding them seems like a terrible idea
2015-05-21T16:12:29Z White_Flame: I put little project environment loaders/launchers in my .sbclrc
2015-05-21T16:12:35Z gko: In these cases, it's for command line commands, not SLIME sessions.
2015-05-21T16:13:18Z gko: Of course, for stuff that would require external libraries available in ASDF, no problem...
2015-05-21T16:13:22Z oGMo: gko: even worse, since from the commandline a the simpler you can "load this and everything it depends on" the better
2015-05-21T16:14:04Z oGMo: if you want to load a single file, you can just --load $path/file.lisp or similar?
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2015-05-21T16:17:16Z gko: Yeah, scripts loaded with --load should do the trick. The machines these commands run on don't have internet access, so I just can't (ql:quickload ...) but rather copy everything by hand.
2015-05-21T16:17:42Z gko: anyway, thanks for your inputs.
2015-05-21T16:17:44Z White_Flame: if you're copying, then put your code in local-projects with an .asd
2015-05-21T16:17:49Z White_Flame: one bundle to shove to the dest machine
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2015-05-21T16:18:28Z elderK: Hey guys, quick question:
2015-05-21T16:18:37Z White_Flame: quick answer: maybe
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2015-05-21T16:18:41Z elderK: I'm creating a toy binding for sockets. Just socket, bind, etc.
2015-05-21T16:18:52Z elderK: But when I get an error, I can't get perror / errno to tell me what actually happened.
2015-05-21T16:18:54Z gko: Yeah. Glad to now use Linux machines instead of Solaris / DEC Alpha machines to get up-to-date stuff...
2015-05-21T16:18:58Z elderK: I think it's being reset by the CFFI/FFI layer.
2015-05-21T16:19:17Z elderK: Does that sound like a sane assumption?
2015-05-21T16:19:27Z oGMo: no, errno is probably not a regular variable
2015-05-21T16:19:46Z gko: socket? implementation-dependent..
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2015-05-21T16:20:07Z elderK: Exactly.
2015-05-21T16:20:12Z elderK: That's why I was calling the perror function instead.
2015-05-21T16:20:15Z elderK: (FFI bound)
2015-05-21T16:20:24Z elderK: Ahhhhhhhh. Wait a minute, that's stupid...
2015-05-21T16:20:28Z elderK: :)
2015-05-21T16:22:04Z elderK: My bad...
2015-05-21T16:22:07Z elderK: It was me being really stupid :)
2015-05-21T16:22:17Z elderK: Because perror prints to stdout, it wasn't appearing in the SLIME display.
2015-05-21T16:22:22Z elderK: But instead, on the Xterm running sbcl.
2015-05-21T16:22:24Z elderK: D'Oh!
2015-05-21T16:22:25Z elderK: :)
2015-05-21T16:22:28Z elderK: Sorry guys :)
2015-05-21T16:22:48Z White_Flame: it prints to stderr, actually
2015-05-21T16:22:54Z elderK: That's the one :)
2015-05-21T16:23:02Z elderK: Anywho, how do people normally access errno?
2015-05-21T16:23:33Z elderK: And is there a better way to access foreign enumeration constants than saying cffi:foreign-enum-value ?
2015-05-21T16:23:49Z elderK: I know you can tell cffi-grovel to define the constants but the way it does it, doesn't follow the convention I'd like...
2015-05-21T16:23:54Z elderK: so I do it manually instead...
2015-05-21T16:24:06Z elderK: (defconstant +bla+ (cffi:foreign-enum-value ....))
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2015-05-21T16:25:44Z elderK: Aha. According to cffi, you can access errno with defcvar
2015-05-21T16:25:45Z elderK: :)
2015-05-21T16:25:46Z elderK: Awesome.
2015-05-21T16:26:00Z Xach: (sb-alien:get-errno)
2015-05-21T16:26:51Z elderK: If you're on SBCL :)
2015-05-21T16:27:25Z Xach: yes
2015-05-21T16:34:28Z elderK: so, do + or * denote constants? :)
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2015-05-21T16:34:41Z White_Flame: +constants+
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2015-05-21T16:35:00Z elderK: Thanks :)
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2015-05-21T16:45:57Z elderK: Man, this is cool.
2015-05-21T16:46:08Z elderK: It's awesome being able to just... do it all interactively.
2015-05-21T16:46:08Z elderK: :D
2015-05-21T16:46:10Z elderK: So cool.
2015-05-21T16:47:39Z elderK: Thanks for your help guys. No doubt you'll see me again :)
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2015-05-21T17:00:37Z loz1: hi, is it possible to disconnect slime from lisp image and then reconnect back?
2015-05-21T17:02:04Z loz1: i'm doing slime-disconnect, then trying to use ports seen by netstat to connect to sbcl, but connection hangs
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2015-05-21T17:22:17Z oleo: hello :)
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2015-05-21T17:56:49Z jasom: loz1: yes it is
2015-05-21T17:57:27Z jasom: loz1: I don't know how to tell emacs to launch a lisp image with reconnection supported (you probably can, I just don't know how), but it's easy to do if you start a swank server yourself
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2015-05-21T18:26:49Z jackdaniel: hm, does (destructuring-read (syntax stream) ...) makes any sense?
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2015-05-21T18:35:56Z jasom: where does standard error (not *error-output*, I'm using run-program) go when connected with slime?
2015-05-21T18:36:12Z jasom: *inferior-lisp*?
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2015-05-21T18:37:35Z loz1: is this behaviour implied by standard? https://ideone.com/nSxWry
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2015-05-21T18:52:40Z pjb: loz1: yes. compare with (defparameter *c2* (make-closure 'f))
2015-05-21T18:52:55Z pjb: loz1: ALWAYS USE ** around SPECIAL variables!
2015-05-21T18:53:05Z pjb: loz1: ALWAYS!!!
2015-05-21T18:53:10Z pjb: loz1: Really ALWAYS!!!
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2015-05-21T20:08:26Z loz1: pjb: ok, ok, calm down)
2015-05-21T20:08:52Z loz1: its just a snippet, really
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2015-05-21T20:30:37Z gendl: Hi, in asdf is there a way to automate the distribution of components of a system? For example if I have a system with some :static-file components, can I use some asdf operators to identify those pathnames and copy them to a distribution directory?
2015-05-21T20:31:48Z pjb: gendl: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Predefined-operations-of-ASDF.html
2015-05-21T20:32:06Z pjb: cf. compile-bundle-op concatenate-source-op
2015-05-21T20:33:08Z gendl: pjb: thanks - so I think the answer is no, there’s not a predefined operation to do what I’m talking about.
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2015-05-21T20:34:12Z gendl: I don’t want to concatenate the source, or produce a binary - just get hold of the components of type :static-file, so I can do something with them.
2015-05-21T20:34:32Z Xach: gendl: I think there are a few systems that do something like that in quicklisp. i think perhaps ironclad, or something else by nathan froyd.
2015-05-21T20:35:13Z Xach: Hmm, looking at the ironclad .asd doesn't offer any hint of that.
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2015-05-21T20:39:41Z gendl: was just looking at it too.
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2015-05-21T20:41:19Z gendl: If I understood the structure of the asdf system object better, it would probably be trivial to query it for what I need.
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2015-05-21T20:42:10Z Xach: gendl: http://wcp.sdf-eu.org/software/asdfa.lisp looks like it defines a pack-op
2015-05-21T20:42:22Z Xach: could be out of date, since that looks like an old file
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2015-05-21T22:02:39Z jasom: gendl: just don't do what I did; have a .lisp file that depends on the static-file component with an eval-when :compile that copies the file
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2015-05-21T22:56:52Z gendl: jasom: sounds clever but maybe too clever. How do you get ahold of the actual pathname of the static file component in order to copy it?
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2015-05-22T03:08:03Z drmeister: After several years of preparation I'm finally adding my chemistry code to Clasp.
2015-05-22T03:09:18Z drmeister: The idea is that to Clasp Common Lisp are added a whole bunch of packages, builtin classes and functions that build molecules.  All of these new builtin classes are garbage collected the same way regular Common Lisp objects are garbage collected.
2015-05-22T03:10:06Z drmeister: I'm also adding MPI - the Message Passing Interface - so it becomes part of the language.
2015-05-22T03:10:22Z gendl: drmeister: woohoo!
2015-05-22T03:10:36Z gendl: I was trying to learn something about MPI the other day.
2015-05-22T03:11:09Z drmeister: It will create a new version of Clasp called "Cando" which has everything Clasp has: ASDF, Slime, quicklisp - but it can do molecular modeling on very large parallel supercomputers.
2015-05-22T03:11:36Z drmeister: Yes, the idea is that you can send s-expressions between processes.
2015-05-22T03:11:59Z gendl: MPI is a lot more general than sending s-expressions, isn’t it?
2015-05-22T03:12:03Z drmeister: You can send code between processes, have it compile in the target process and run.
2015-05-22T03:12:48Z gendl: Gendl has a home-grown kind of message-passing interface which we use to allow a child object to live on a remote Gendl (Lisp) process.
2015-05-22T03:12:55Z drmeister: When I last looked at it MPI data transfer is primitive - it's basically Fortran style tables.
2015-05-22T03:14:47Z gendl: I have the idea to extend our remote-object capability to allow remote child objects to exist in other environments, like Python, Java, whatever - but to do that I think we have to use something more neutral than s-expressions over the wire. somethine like JSON.
2015-05-22T03:15:00Z gendl: I was wondering if it’s worth looking at a standard like MPI for doing that.
2015-05-22T03:15:14Z drmeister: Sure.
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2015-05-22T03:15:38Z gendl: Anyway I don’t mean to change the topic. Sounds like clasp is really screaming along. I am eager to try to get Gendl up and running on it.
2015-05-22T03:16:15Z drmeister: Cool!
2015-05-22T03:16:54Z gendl: one rather unusual (these days) dependency we have for the full web-based interface is portableallegroserve.
2015-05-22T03:17:07Z gendl: I think that’s the main blocker at this point for ECL, ABCL, and clisp.
2015-05-22T03:17:30Z gendl: the kernel and geom-base modules run on those systems now, but not the web stuff, because paserve.
2015-05-22T03:18:51Z gendl: I have to touch base with Rudi Schlatte and see what we can do to help that along. Most of the complexity in paserve is the acl-compat package it uses, and most of acl-compat these days can be stripped down to the bone and implemented with defacto standard stuff from quicklisp.
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2015-05-22T03:20:05Z gendl: What I’m saying is, before brute-force trying to port paserve to those other CLs, it will make sense to factor acl-compat down to the bone so it’s mainly made up of already-supported stuff.
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2015-05-22T03:20:21Z gendl: but again I digress - back to clasp.
2015-05-22T03:20:59Z gendl: the commercial variant of Gendl, Genworks GDL, ships with a commercial C/C++ solid modeling library called SMLib.
2015-05-22T03:21:36Z gendl: We have to build this into a .dll (or .so or .dylib), then interface to it with UFFI. So far I’ve been too lazy to get this working with anything but Allegro and LW, so we only ship commercially on those platforms.
2015-05-22T03:22:06Z gendl: Is it true that with clasp, potentially we can be calling into SMLib functions and methods without really going through an FFI?
2015-05-22T03:22:47Z gendl: drmeister: if you’re still around…
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2015-05-22T03:23:27Z drmeister: Sorry - I'm running Common Lisp code that's rewriting my C++ code - it's a little tense at the moment.
2015-05-22T03:23:50Z cluck: it's alive! \o/
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2015-05-22T03:24:22Z drmeister: It's running now ... reading...
2015-05-22T03:26:02Z drmeister: gendl: Yes, you can call into SMLib functions and methods without going through the sort of FFI that you are familiar with.
2015-05-22T03:26:23Z drmeister: I do it all the time to call into LLVM, Clang and Clasp C++ code.
2015-05-22T03:27:20Z drmeister: You write things like:     def("SMLib-function",&SMLib-function);   or class_<SMLibClass>("smlib-class").def("smlib-method",&SMLibClass::smlibMethod) ;
2015-05-22T03:27:38Z drmeister: That's all it takes to expose functions, classes and methods to Clasp Common Lisp.
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2015-05-22T03:29:01Z drmeister: gendl: Is SMLib a C++ library or a C library?
2015-05-22T03:29:20Z gendl: both
2015-05-22T03:29:28Z gendl: it’s made from NLib which is pure C
2015-05-22T03:29:35Z gendl: plus NMTLib which is C++
2015-05-22T03:29:52Z gendl: plus HarmonyWare (the CAD data translators) which is C++
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2015-05-22T03:30:29Z gendl: currently we have a load of hand-coded C wrappers which are what we call from CL.
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2015-05-22T03:33:26Z drmeister: So with Clasp you write that stuff I showed you above, one line per function/class/method/enum and clang builds the code that wraps everything at compile time.  So when the API changes the compiler takes care of it or if a function disappears it generates a compile time error that you fix by removing the statement that exposes that function.
2015-05-22T03:33:50Z drmeister: Clasp takes care of all of the conversion from Common Lisp objects to C++ and back.
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2015-05-22T03:34:38Z gendl: 8)
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2015-05-22T03:35:13Z drmeister: You don't need to know function/method signatures when you interface the code.  Of course you do need to know the signature when you call the functions from Common Lisp.
2015-05-22T03:36:00Z drmeister: Values that are passed by reference to the C++ functions are automatically converted to multiple return values.
2015-05-22T03:36:22Z drmeister: You can specify pointer ownership policies when you expose functions/methods.  etc.
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2015-05-22T03:37:17Z drmeister: Like I said - I exposed clang - which is a completely naive C++ library - it was never intended to be used by anything other than other C++ code.
2015-05-22T03:44:03Z drmeister: "Like I said" - I shouldn't use that phrase - it sounds so rude when I read it.  Sorry.
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2015-05-22T03:53:42Z gendl: didn’t feel rude to me.
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2015-05-22T04:01:36Z theos: you could say "Like theos said". i wont mind
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2015-05-22T04:02:54Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-05-22T04:07:08Z theos: hey
2015-05-22T04:08:49Z drmeister: Hi beach
2015-05-22T04:09:06Z failproofshark: hello
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2015-05-22T04:41:05Z beach: drmeister: Any more thoughts about Lisp-y LLVM instruction set?
2015-05-22T04:41:39Z drmeister: No - I've been making tremendous progress with the build system and integrating my chemistry code.
2015-05-22T04:41:51Z beach: That's great news.
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2015-05-22T04:43:21Z drmeister: I've figured out how to (1) lay out the directories (2) get everything working with git (3) create a new version of the clasp executable that incorporates the chemistry C++ classes (4) automatically rewrite all of the #include directives to point to the rearranged directories.
2015-05-22T04:44:58Z drmeister: I'm working on getting the first module incorporated to create a new version of clasp that has 3D vectors, matrices and 3D vector arrays - geometry.
2015-05-22T04:45:32Z drmeister: All of these new classes will behave like builtin Common Lisp classes and they will be managed by the garbage collector.
2015-05-22T04:45:34Z beach: Nice.  You use that for the chemistry code?
2015-05-22T04:45:52Z drmeister: Yes, molecules are three-dimensional entities - just very, very small.
2015-05-22T04:46:19Z drmeister: 9 orders of magnitude smaller than we are.
2015-05-22T04:46:54Z beach: Don't you have to take into account quantum effects?
2015-05-22T04:47:55Z drmeister: No, that's a different level of theory.
2015-05-22T04:48:20Z beach: That makes things easier I suppose.
2015-05-22T04:48:31Z drmeister: We treat molecules sort of like balls connected by springs.  The quantum effects are built into force-field parameters.
2015-05-22T04:48:55Z beach: Sounds good to me.
2015-05-22T04:49:02Z drmeister: It makes things possible.  The time that quantum mechanics calculations take goes as the fourth power of the number of electrons.
2015-05-22T04:49:48Z beach: Heh!
2015-05-22T04:50:48Z drmeister: The kind of calculations I use scale by the second power of the number of atoms.
2015-05-22T04:51:21Z drmeister: So calculations on molecules of an interesting size become tractable.
2015-05-22T04:51:42Z beach: And how many atoms are we talking about here?
2015-05-22T04:51:54Z drmeister: Hundreds to hundreds of thousands.
2015-05-22T04:52:04Z Bike: yay, proteins.
2015-05-22T04:52:08Z beach: So you need to take into account forces between pairs of atoms?
2015-05-22T04:52:26Z Bike: good to hear that balls on springs is normal.
2015-05-22T04:53:03Z drmeister: Yes - that's where N^2 comes in.  There are approaches to ignore atoms that are too far away from each other.
2015-05-22T04:53:06Z beach: When you have that many atoms, can't you ignore interactions between atoms that are fare apart?
2015-05-22T04:53:11Z beach: heh
2015-05-22T04:53:34Z drmeister: Yes, but electrostatic interactions are dangerous to ignore and very strong.
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2015-05-22T04:53:56Z beach: But they are inversely proportional to the square of the distance, yes?
2015-05-22T04:54:20Z drmeister: The force - yes.
2015-05-22T04:54:51Z drmeister: But the simulations we run are in relatively small volumes.
2015-05-22T04:54:54Z Bike: they're covalently bound, it's not like a gas, so you have to care about van der waals and shit
2015-05-22T04:55:00Z drmeister: So nothing gets too far from anything else.
2015-05-22T04:55:12Z beach: Got it.
2015-05-22T04:55:43Z Bike: biology stuff makes statistical mechanics hard. who knew
2015-05-22T04:56:06Z beach: Bike: Perhaps you should consider making a Common Lisp version of drmeister's chemistry code.
2015-05-22T04:56:23Z beach: It would be fun to see how much faster the Common Lisp code would be compared to the C++ code.
2015-05-22T04:57:02Z beach: There are probably a few good papers in there too.
2015-05-22T04:57:27Z Bike: from what i've seen of cando that's a pretty tall order.
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2015-05-22T04:57:55Z Bike: i think i understand the stuff i work on well enough to rewrite it from scratch now, though, so i might do that. certainly can't be worse than 200-across constant matrices called HARDY and LAUREL
2015-05-22T04:58:23Z oleo_: moooorniiinnnnggg *aaarrrggghh*
2015-05-22T04:58:46Z beach: Bike: Huh?  Where did you get this Laurel & Hardy stuff?
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2015-05-22T04:59:40Z Bike: the code at my job, i mean. it was written a long time ago and has unhelpful variable names.
2015-05-22T04:59:44Z Bike: and i like complaining (sorry)
2015-05-22T05:00:03Z beach: No that's fine.  I collect stories like that for a planned book. :)
2015-05-22T05:00:32Z beach: Bike: Let me guess.  The people who wrote it are not programmers, right?
2015-05-22T05:01:30Z Bike: nah. bioengineers.
2015-05-22T05:01:36Z beach: Mhm.
2015-05-22T05:02:39Z Bike: a few days ago i read a 1977 paper and whipped it up in a page of code. it conses way more than it should, though, dunno what's happening there. and then for extra lispiness i made a metaprogram for it. booyah.
2015-05-22T05:04:19Z beach: Bike: I see.  I am intrigued by the ITA story where they were able to compete with an old program written in assembler, just because they were able to consider much more complex algorithms when using Common Lisp.
2015-05-22T05:04:46Z beach: I have a feeling there is something to learn in that story for other domains as well.
2015-05-22T05:04:52Z Bike: well, i guess it's sort of the same, but 1977 is perhaps a bit unfair.
2015-05-22T05:05:03Z beach: Perhaps, yes.
2015-05-22T05:05:15Z Bike: they wrote programs in fortran, and they wrote one program for each reaction scheme. i wrote a function for arbitrary schemes, and then one that generates a function for a given scheme.
2015-05-22T05:05:39Z beach: Right, that's a good example of what I am talking about.
2015-05-22T05:06:18Z Bike: in half a page, too. most of the programs i write now are short one off things like that and it's much more fun for me to do that in lisp than in blah blah classfiles, but that's just me
2015-05-22T05:06:31Z Bike: don't have to worry about parsing input or nuthin.
2015-05-22T05:07:27Z beach: Write it up and submit it to ELS or ILC.
2015-05-22T05:07:52Z beach: Someone might pay your trip to go present it.
2015-05-22T05:08:23Z drmeister: People pay trips to ELS?
2015-05-22T05:08:44Z beach: drmeister: My department does.
2015-05-22T05:09:26Z Bike: a twenty line LOOP invocation hardly seems like enough to be a fair paper to me, but i haven't published anything so i guess i wouldn't know
2015-05-22T05:10:29Z beach: Bike: Let's talk about it sometime.  You might be surprised.
2015-05-22T05:11:15Z Bike: I really wish I could tell what's consing, though. SBCL's two pages of notes for things to work on are nice, but...
2015-05-22T05:11:58Z beach: I don't have time to look at it myself, but if it is a 20-line LOOP, then you might paste it and ask people here.
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2015-05-22T05:15:17Z drmeister: It looks like I have my work cut out for me updating my Chemistry code.
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2015-05-22T05:15:56Z drmeister: I made a lot of changes to the way I do things over the last couple of months.
2015-05-22T05:16:27Z Bike: actually, drmeister, i don't suppose you do kinetics
2015-05-22T05:16:40Z drmeister: Reaction kinetics?  Sure.
2015-05-22T05:16:48Z Bike: in detail?
2015-05-22T05:16:54Z Bike: cos all i did is the gillespie algorithm.
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2015-05-22T05:19:16Z drmeister: I haven't implemented it - but I know what it is.
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2015-05-22T05:21:14Z drmeister: I better head to bed - I'm fading.
2015-05-22T05:21:34Z Bike: good night.
2015-05-22T05:22:48Z Bike: well, here it is anyway, in case someone has any insight. http://paste.lisp.org/+36M1
2015-05-22T05:23:42Z Bike: As far as i can tell, sbcl can't make a local function return unboxed floats to go into a float array, though i might be misunderstanding the issue.
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2015-05-22T05:50:31Z beach: Bike: Did you try compiling it with (SPEED 3) and maybe also (SAFETY 0)?
2015-05-22T05:51:12Z Bike: it had speed 3 and space 3. i put it in a locally because i let it take weird arrays and coerce them to specific ones.
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2015-05-22T05:52:38Z Bike: still complains about the boxing with safety zero, looks like.
2015-05-22T05:52:52Z beach: Hmm.
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2015-05-22T06:40:22Z EuAndreh: Is there portable a way to get the PID better than https://github.com/archimag/mongo-cl-driver/blob/82e56a390aa14cf642904740fb13c797568610a2/bson/types.lisp#L51
2015-05-22T06:40:36Z EuAndreh: ?
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2015-05-22T06:44:40Z _1_sam0069: hii
2015-05-22T06:47:45Z White_Flame: EuAndreh: trivial-shell has it, which basically does what you do, just in a lib with other tools
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2015-05-22T06:49:15Z White_Flame: ah, n/m, that function doesn't look exported.  But some trivial platform like that could do it for you
2015-05-22T06:50:48Z White_Flame: https://github.com/gwkkwg/trivial-shell
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2015-05-22T06:59:08Z EuAndreh: White_Flame: thanks, I'll check that.
2015-05-22T07:00:02Z White_Flame: EuAndreh: running the unexported functions from quicklisp, I get errors
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2015-05-22T07:00:43Z White_Flame: but it basically does what you do.  If I were you, I'd wrap your #+ body into a get-os-pid function, which you can then swap out for something else that works if you want
2015-05-22T07:00:59Z White_Flame: you really don't want platform specifcs inside a function body that does other things
2015-05-22T07:01:15Z Shinmera: Good mourning, #lisp
2015-05-22T07:01:22Z jackdaniel: good morning
2015-05-22T07:01:24Z Shinmera forgot to quit his IRC client for the night again.
2015-05-22T07:01:25Z White_Flame: re
2015-05-22T07:03:11Z Shinmera: Yesterday someone asked me about Parasol again, I really wish I had time to spare to work on it right now.
2015-05-22T07:03:46Z EuAndreh: What unexported symbol are you talking about? Is it in trivial-shell?
2015-05-22T07:04:10Z EuAndreh: White_Flame: or is it in another library?
2015-05-22T07:04:17Z White_Flame: trivial-shell::os-process-id
2015-05-22T07:04:35Z EuAndreh: White_Flame: Thanks.
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2015-05-22T07:05:19Z White_Flame: EuAndreh: I just did some quick googling for a trivial-* package with it, I haven't used trivial-shell specifically
2015-05-22T07:06:36Z Shinmera: UIOP seems to have some PID stuff, let me see.
2015-05-22T07:07:39Z EuAndreh: Shinmera: I couldn't find it in UIOP.
2015-05-22T07:08:13Z Shinmera: It has some internals related to it for use in RUN-PROGRAM, but nothing exported or directly usable.
2015-05-22T07:08:52Z EuAndreh: trivial-shell::os-process-id works only in some implementations.
2015-05-22T07:08:55Z Shinmera: See %process-info-pid for the portability layer. The only step left after that is getting the process object itself.
2015-05-22T07:08:58Z EuAndreh: https://github.com/gwkkwg/trivial-shell/blob/master/dev/sbcl.lisp#L83
2015-05-22T07:09:03Z EuAndreh: Yeah.
2015-05-22T07:09:20Z EuAndreh: I think I'll make a PR too add support for more implementations.
2015-05-22T07:09:33Z White_Flame: EuAndreh: right, and the 'unsupported-function-error it tries to throw is undefined :-P
2015-05-22T07:09:57Z White_Flame: s/throw/raise/
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2015-05-22T07:20:04Z EuAndreh: Now trivial-shell:os-process-id should work: https://github.com/gwkkwg/trivial-shell/pull/9
2015-05-22T07:20:45Z EuAndreh: Maybe not fully, but less partially
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2015-05-22T07:24:49Z jackdaniel: EuAndreh: if you're at it, could you also add ecl? it's (ext:getpid) for process id
2015-05-22T07:25:46Z EuAndreh: jackdaniel: Sure.
2015-05-22T07:25:51Z jackdaniel: thanks :-)
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2015-05-22T07:27:40Z EuAndreh: Done.
2015-05-22T07:27:44Z jackdaniel: \o/
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2015-05-22T07:54:06Z jackdaniel: what is non-terminating macro character?
2015-05-22T07:58:07Z |3b|: a macro character that doesnt interrupt parsing a sequence of characters as a symbol
2015-05-22T07:58:57Z jackdaniel: oh, so if ^ is non-terminating macro character, then abc ^ xyz would be abcxyz?
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2015-05-22T08:01:27Z |3b|: for example in '(foo'bar hoge#piyo), ' is a terminating macro character so foo'bar reads as FOO (QUOTE BAR), while # isn't so hoge#piyo reads as |HOGE#PIYO|
2015-05-22T08:02:03Z |3b|: while hoge #piyo would error, since iyo isn't a valid pathname
2015-05-22T08:02:56Z jackdaniel: ok, now I get it, thank you
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2015-05-22T08:05:02Z |3b|: possibly that should have been "token" rather than "symbol", since i think that happens before it decides if it will interpret it as a symbol or number
2015-05-22T08:05:48Z |3b|: yeah, 12'3 => 12 '3 while 12#3 => |12#3|
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2015-05-22T09:52:12Z jackdaniel: I've tweaked protoist's literal function macro to not loop at runtime and allow reaching arguments of outer literal functions. RFC http://ix.io/iI6/common-lisp
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2015-05-22T09:53:33Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for protoist: what do you think about change like http://ix.io/iI6/common-lisp ?
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2015-05-22T09:53:43Z jackdaniel: hm
2015-05-22T09:53:55Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell protoist when he/she/it next speaks.
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2015-05-22T11:35:32Z attila_lendvai: cliki.net is down
2015-05-22T11:36:05Z ehu: attila_lendvai: I'm restarting the system. it had a system load of 25.
2015-05-22T11:36:20Z attila_lendvai: uhh... :) ok
2015-05-22T11:36:21Z ehu: attila_lendvai: thanks for the heads up.
2015-05-22T11:36:21Z antoszka: ouch
2015-05-22T11:36:47Z ehu: I found it quite responsive, considering.
2015-05-22T11:36:56Z attila_lendvai measures the boot time :)
2015-05-22T11:37:28Z ehu: heh. well, I'm trying to close down processes nicely. so, it's going to take a while, I think.
2015-05-22T11:38:01Z ehu: I've been considering adding an SSD to the system to cache the rotational devices.
2015-05-22T11:38:04Z p_l has been recently struck with how "loadavg 25" is actually "server is underutilized" on some machines...
2015-05-22T11:38:49Z ehu: p_l: well, on this machine, %wa was way high up too.
2015-05-22T11:38:57Z p_l: heh
2015-05-22T11:39:04Z ehu: which probably means that the cpu was underutiziled.
2015-05-22T11:39:27Z p_l: or something got hung
2015-05-22T11:39:38Z ehu: that's very much possible as well.
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2015-05-22T11:40:11Z p_l: these days a medium range server can come with 48 cores
2015-05-22T11:40:13Z ehu: this sounds weird: 207 processes total, 206 sleeping, load average (1min) 7.45
2015-05-22T11:40:29Z ehu: with all but one sleeping, how can it be so high?
2015-05-22T11:40:39Z ehu: anyway,
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2015-05-22T11:40:57Z ehu: I'm hesitant to have the SSD added, because it might mean completely reorganizing the disk structure.
2015-05-22T11:41:24Z ehu: and that usually means downtime.
2015-05-22T11:41:29Z ehu: which I want to prevent.
2015-05-22T11:42:24Z p_l: physical host?
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2015-05-22T11:42:50Z ehu: the SSD currenly isn't in the physical host, yes.
2015-05-22T11:42:57Z kami: Hello #lisp
2015-05-22T11:43:02Z ehu: so, having it added means changing the setup of the physical host.
2015-05-22T11:43:15Z p_l: ehu: and I guess no hot-add? :D
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2015-05-22T11:44:11Z ehu: heh. no. but even if that were the case, I'd have to put a bcache between the VM's LVM partitions and the physical disks.
2015-05-22T11:44:20Z ehu: that can't be done in a "hot" fashion.
2015-05-22T11:44:24Z White_Flame: "sleeping" is only at the instant that top polls it
2015-05-22T11:44:37Z ehu: adding the ssd probably won't take more than 5-10 minutes.
2015-05-22T11:44:41Z White_Flame: therefore, usually 'top' is the only thing runnign exactly then
2015-05-22T11:44:57Z White_Flame: at least in my experience
2015-05-22T11:45:05Z White_Flame: even if other things are pinning cores
2015-05-22T11:45:10Z ehu: White_Flame: that's a bad joke, if it's true.
2015-05-22T11:45:31Z White_Flame: it's old legacy APIs in a more modern age
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2015-05-22T11:59:42Z flip214: ehu: because they're waiting for disk IO
2015-05-22T12:00:38Z flip214: ehu: that's why they're sleeping.
2015-05-22T12:00:46Z ehu: hmm. I guess my expected definition of "sleeping" is off then, I guess.
2015-05-22T12:00:47Z ehu: ok.
2015-05-22T12:00:49Z ehu: thanks.
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2015-05-22T12:01:08Z flip214: if you want a HA setup, we could help... that would mean hardware upgrades without downtime, too.
2015-05-22T12:01:48Z flip214: but, of course, a second machine - which might not the desired outcome.
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2015-05-22T12:02:40Z ehu: :-) with a second machine, I can migrate the VM over to that machine, change the setup of the current machine and migrate the VM back.
2015-05-22T12:02:50Z ehu: that's no problem for my current setup.
2015-05-22T12:03:00Z ehu: although to be honest, I hadn't thought of going that route.
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2015-05-22T12:03:16Z H4ns: you could also shut down the vm, do the upgrade, and boot it again
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2015-05-22T12:20:03Z ehu: yea. that's the route that I'm going to take as soon as I decide when to add the SSD.
2015-05-22T12:20:09Z ehu: but I've disabled trac now.
2015-05-22T12:20:18Z ehu: that seems to reduce system load significantly.
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2015-05-22T12:20:48Z ehu: I'll investigate what's going on there later. have to go to a meeting in a bit. At least the system operations seem to be returning to normal.
2015-05-22T12:24:05Z elderK: ehu: SSDs are fantastic.
2015-05-22T12:24:15Z elderK: Seriously, massive speed boost if you've only used mechanical drives.
2015-05-22T12:24:40Z ehu: elderK: right. but when added to an already running server platform, it's also a risk.
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2015-05-22T12:25:27Z elderK: ehu: That's true.
2015-05-22T12:25:40Z elderK: I'd imagine you'd be concerned about SSD longevity too then?
2015-05-22T12:26:04Z elderK: I've been using mine for two years so far without a hitch. But that's nothing compared to mechanical drives.
2015-05-22T12:26:10Z elderK: At least, decent ones. :)
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2015-05-22T12:27:32Z jackdaniel: cliki.net down
2015-05-22T12:27:50Z jackdaniel: o, nvm
2015-05-22T12:28:00Z elderK: Yo jackdaniel!
2015-05-22T12:28:02Z jackdaniel: o/
2015-05-22T12:28:49Z jackdaniel: I see nobody commented my hairy macros, hoped to spot a few particularily ugly constructs my untrained eye can't recognize
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2015-05-22T12:29:33Z elderK: common-lisp.net's dead from me :/
2015-05-22T12:29:54Z jackdaniel: from discussion above I assume server is being restarted now
2015-05-22T12:30:05Z jackdaniel: therefore no cliki neither cl.ent
2015-05-22T12:30:53Z jackdaniel: fyi abovementioned macro is here http://ix.io/iI6/common-lisp
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2015-05-22T12:31:41Z elderK: Hey guys, how do I tell ASDF that my files end in .cl rather than .lisp?
2015-05-22T12:31:44Z elderK: I know there's static-file
2015-05-22T12:31:49Z elderK: Is that the only way?
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2015-05-22T12:33:51Z dim: elderK: I'm finding http://stackoverflow.com/questions/29341044/choose-extension-of-file-component-in-asdf-defsystem which seems of interest here
2015-05-22T12:34:26Z elderK: Thanks dim
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2015-05-22T12:35:57Z Xach: There's a builtin class for .cl files, I believe
2015-05-22T12:36:11Z Xach: yes, it's called asdf:cl-source-file.cl
2015-05-22T12:36:17Z Xach: similar for .lisp
2015-05-22T12:36:19Z Xach: err, .lsp
2015-05-22T12:36:38Z Xach muscle memory can't even type ".lsp" on the first try
2015-05-22T12:36:52Z Xach: You can also set the default type somehow.
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2015-05-22T12:38:59Z elderK: So glad that SlimV exists :)
2015-05-22T12:39:07Z elderK: Thanks Xach :)
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2015-05-22T12:39:14Z oleo: hello :)
2015-05-22T12:39:47Z jackdaniel: hello oleo
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2015-05-22T12:40:42Z Xach: elderK: out of curiosity, why are they named .cl?
2015-05-22T12:41:59Z elderK: Just personal preference really.
2015-05-22T12:42:06Z elderK: No other reason :)
2015-05-22T12:42:25Z Xach: I recommend getting with the program
2015-05-22T12:43:26Z elderK: And just using .lisp?
2015-05-22T12:43:27Z elderK: :)
2015-05-22T12:43:36Z elderK: I have :)
2015-05-22T12:43:57Z oleo: sup jackdaniel
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2015-05-22T13:28:08Z elderK: MAN
2015-05-22T13:28:10Z elderK: This is cool :)
2015-05-22T13:28:18Z elderK: ^_^ Just created a barebones binding for sockets.
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2015-05-22T13:28:21Z elderK: Now to play with it.
2015-05-22T13:28:26Z elderK: It's so awesome being able to just... work like this.
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2015-05-22T13:28:42Z elderK: REPL! Do this!
2015-05-22T13:28:43Z elderK: BING!
2015-05-22T13:28:46Z elderK: :)
2015-05-22T13:28:50Z elderK: No compile, link, bla.
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2015-05-22T13:29:15Z Adlai: well, there is a compile, and in some lisps (eg ECL) there is also linking
2015-05-22T13:29:35Z elderK: Well, yes.
2015-05-22T13:29:37Z Adlai: but the default workflow integrates them seamlessly
2015-05-22T13:29:38Z elderK: but you know what I mean :)
2015-05-22T13:29:57Z elderK: Now I just need to learn how to define recurisve data structures via CFFI
2015-05-22T13:30:00Z elderK: I know how SBCL does it
2015-05-22T13:30:04Z elderK: but I'm not sure how CFFI does it :)
2015-05-22T13:30:05Z Adlai: you could also just edit all your files, rewrite everything, then ,force-compile-system but... why?
2015-05-22T13:30:26Z Adlai knows why - because elderK isn't using slime :P
2015-05-22T13:32:08Z elderK: I'm using SlimV which is a crappier version of SLIME but for Vim.
2015-05-22T13:32:09Z elderK: :P
2015-05-22T13:32:15Z zhangyh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2015-05-22T13:32:26Z elderK: But it still works pretty well :)
2015-05-22T13:32:33Z Adlai: does it also have comma commands?
2015-05-22T13:32:42Z elderK: Yes.
2015-05-22T13:32:44Z Adlai: awesome
2015-05-22T13:32:47Z elderK: And par edit and all that jazz.
2015-05-22T13:32:55Z Adlai: paredit actually isn't part of vanilla slime
2015-05-22T13:33:02Z elderK: I wasn't aware :)
2015-05-22T13:33:04Z elderK: But it's neat.
2015-05-22T13:33:16Z elderK: It certainly doesn't work as