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In my normal installation, everything just works. 2014-11-06T03:54:24Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-11-06T03:58:11Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2014-11-06T03:59:36Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-11-06T04:00:04Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2014-11-06T04:00:04Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-11-06T04:00:19Z ggole joined #lisp 2014-11-06T04:01:05Z kirin` joined #lisp 2014-11-06T04:02:08Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-06T04:04:40Z kirin` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-06T04:05:51Z heddwch joined #lisp 2014-11-06T04:07:05Z ynniv joined #lisp 2014-11-06T04:07:20Z miql joined #lisp 2014-11-06T04:07:36Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2014-11-06T04:10:23Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-06T04:12:07Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-06T04:12:25Z ynniv quit (Quit: ynniv) 2014-11-06T04:17:55Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-06T04:18:42Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2014-11-06T04:19:18Z oleo is now known as Guest1825 2014-11-06T04:19:30Z rtra joined #lisp 2014-11-06T04:19:59Z Guest1825 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-06T04:20:18Z blab quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-06T04:23:16Z frkout_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-06T04:23:45Z drewc joined #lisp 2014-11-06T04:25:11Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-11-06T04:25:39Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2014-11-06T04:28:59Z funnel quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-06T04:29:24Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-06T04:29:34Z funnel joined #lisp 2014-11-06T04:32:55Z for_english_home joined #lisp 2014-11-06T04:33:21Z for_english_home: (defn hello (defn say "hello")) 2014-11-06T04:33:36Z for_english_home: hah, can't compile... 2014-11-06T04:34:06Z chu_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-06T04:34:25Z ehaliewicz joined #lisp 2014-11-06T04:34:29Z miql joined #lisp 2014-11-06T04:35:54Z beach: for_english_home: What language is that? 2014-11-06T04:37:20Z for_english_home: I'm joking,hah. I don't understand lisp 2014-11-06T04:39:07Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-06T04:39:31Z Zhivago: Probably Clojure. 2014-11-06T04:42:53Z kirin` joined #lisp 2014-11-06T04:43:55Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-11-06T04:44:45Z drewc: (macrolet ((defn (name &rest return) `(defun ,name () ,@return))) ...) 2014-11-06T04:47:08Z kirin` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-06T04:50:15Z bool_ quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-11-06T04:50:48Z bool_ joined #lisp 2014-11-06T04:51:32Z sabalaba joined #lisp 2014-11-06T04:52:30Z for_english_home left #lisp 2014-11-06T04:56:27Z sabalaba quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-06T04:58:21Z neurokraft joined #lisp 2014-11-06T04:59:00Z Longlius joined #lisp 2014-11-06T04:59:23Z neurokraft quit (Client Quit) 2014-11-06T05:00:13Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-11-06T05:00:24Z msx joined #lisp 2014-11-06T05:01:40Z miql joined #lisp 2014-11-06T05:02:23Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-11-06T05:04:30Z anannie quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-06T05:06:34Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-06T05:08:10Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-11-06T05:08:25Z frkout_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-06T05:09:02Z zeitue quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-06T05:09:43Z cy quit (Quit: goodnight) 2014-11-06T05:09:48Z boogie joined #lisp 2014-11-06T05:09:59Z Guest33690 joined #lisp 2014-11-06T05:10:41Z zeitue joined #lisp 2014-11-06T05:11:01Z cmack``` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-06T05:11:05Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-11-06T05:11:19Z cmack``` joined #lisp 2014-11-06T05:11:36Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2014-11-06T05:12:52Z cojy left #lisp 2014-11-06T05:13:05Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-06T05:13:15Z drmeister: Hello beach. I have a few questions about Cleavir if you have some time. 2014-11-06T05:13:46Z keen____________ joined #lisp 2014-11-06T05:14:27Z Guest33690 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-06T05:14:27Z keen___________ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-06T05:14:40Z sshirokov quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-06T05:15:28Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-06T05:15:50Z drmeister: If I implement variable-info and function-info I have to do so in the package #:cleavir-env - Should I load a cleavir system first or create the #:cleavir-env package myself? 2014-11-06T05:16:43Z sshirokov joined #lisp 2014-11-06T05:17:22Z boogie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-06T05:17:36Z drmeister: Where I am at the moment is I've started up clasp, compiled ASDF, loaded it as a dynamic library and I loaded a .lisp file that does the (PUSH-ALL-REAL-SUBDIRECTORIES "/Users/meister/Development/SICL") 2014-11-06T05:18:22Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-11-06T05:19:01Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-11-06T05:19:21Z beach: Sure, I have time. 2014-11-06T05:20:20Z beach: Generally speaking, you should load the system and then use package prefixes to define methods like (defmethod cleavir-env:function-info (...) ...). 2014-11-06T05:20:35Z drmeister: It looks like I need to load a system that defined #:cleavir-env before I load the cleavir-env:variable-info and cleavir-env:function-info 2014-11-06T05:20:41Z Niac joined #lisp 2014-11-06T05:20:42Z frkout_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-06T05:21:16Z beach: I don't know what you mean by "load the cleavir-info:variable info...". 2014-11-06T05:21:17Z drmeister: Which system(s) should I load first before loading my definitions of variable-info and function-info? 2014-11-06T05:21:38Z beach: You should not have any definitions of those functions. 2014-11-06T05:21:49Z beach: Those definitions are provided when you compile and load the ASDF system. 2014-11-06T05:22:01Z beach: Then you define methods on them. 2014-11-06T05:22:10Z drmeister: Which system? 2014-11-06T05:22:34Z beach: I guess :cleavir-environment? I don't remember such things by heart. 2014-11-06T05:22:38Z beach: I would have to check. 2014-11-06T05:22:53Z attila_lendvai quit (Client Quit) 2014-11-06T05:22:53Z drmeister: The system declares the generic functions - then I load a source file that defmethod(s) the two methods. 2014-11-06T05:24:00Z beach: Yes, it's :cleavir-environment. And yes, that system defines the generic functions. Once that is done you can define your methods. 2014-11-06T05:24:45Z beach: That is usually how it is done with CLOS. 2014-11-06T05:25:31Z beach: You also need to define a dummy environment, unless Clasp has first-class global environments, of course. 2014-11-06T05:25:55Z beach: I use "duck typing", so your environment class does not have to have any superclasses. 2014-11-06T05:26:01Z drmeister: I'll have to define a dummy environment. 2014-11-06T05:26:33Z beach: Your methods should be specialized to your dummy environment class. 2014-11-06T05:27:28Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2014-11-06T05:28:52Z miql joined #lisp 2014-11-06T05:29:49Z blab joined #lisp 2014-11-06T05:30:17Z drmeister: I'll do that. 2014-11-06T05:30:23Z beach: You may need to put a "/" at the end of your path, after SICL. Check that asdf:*central-registry* has all the right directories in it. 2014-11-06T05:30:33Z drmeister: For some reason my DIRECTORY is not returning subdirectories. 2014-11-06T05:30:40Z drmeister: Problem #1 2014-11-06T05:31:01Z beach: Yeah, its behavior is not standardized, I think. 2014-11-06T05:31:41Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-06T05:32:10Z beach: The push-all-real-subdirectories is a kludge because I am unable to understand the ASDF manual. 2014-11-06T05:32:24Z drmeister: Hmm. (directory "/users/meister/Development/SICL/*") --> (#P"/users/meister/Development/SICL/README" #P"/users/meister/Development/SICL/.gitignore") 2014-11-06T05:32:45Z drmeister: But (directory "/users/meister/Development/SICL/*/") --> (#P"/users/meister/Development/SICL/Talks/" #P"/users/meister/Development/SICL/Specification/" #P"/users/meister/Development/SICL/Papers/" #P"/users/meister/Development/SICL/Lisp-Unit/" #P"/users/meister/Development/SICL/Ideas/" #P"/users/meister/Development/SICL/Code/" 2014-11-06T05:32:45Z drmeister: #P"/users/meister/Development/SICL/.git/") 2014-11-06T05:33:06Z drmeister: Is this an example of "behavior not standardized"? 2014-11-06T05:33:21Z drmeister: SBCL returns the full directory for both calls. 2014-11-06T05:33:30Z drmeister: Appending trailing slash 2014-11-06T05:33:34Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-06T05:33:51Z beach: I don't remember the details, just that DIRECTORY is screwy. 2014-11-06T05:34:08Z Eno_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-11-06T05:36:00Z drmeister: And you distinguish directories from files by looking for a trailing slash #\/ - is that portable? 2014-11-06T05:36:05Z ofosos joined #lisp 2014-11-06T05:38:23Z beach: I don't know. I only remember that it's screwy. Notice that this code is in my .sbclrc. Not in SICL or Cleavir. 2014-11-06T05:39:12Z beach: It's a kludge so that I don't have to read and understand the ASDF code. 2014-11-06T05:39:39Z drmeister: No problem. 2014-11-06T05:39:50Z beach: I mean, I would love to read and understand the ASDF code, but I have stuff with higher priority to do. 2014-11-06T05:40:47Z drmeister: I understand - I don't have a lot of experience reading non-ecl Common Lisp code. 2014-11-06T05:41:31Z beach: Yeah, sure. 2014-11-06T05:42:05Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-11-06T05:42:05Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-11-06T05:42:05Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-11-06T05:43:00Z drmeister: And it's failing and I'm trying to figure out if it's a difference between clasp/ecl and sbcl or a bug in my code. 2014-11-06T05:43:31Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-11-06T05:44:07Z beach: As I recall, the behavior of DIRECTORY is not standardized, and again as I recall, SBCL changed its behavior in the past, so it may not be a bug in your code. 2014-11-06T05:44:48Z CrazyWoods quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-06T05:45:20Z attila_lendvai quit (Client Quit) 2014-11-06T05:45:21Z CrazyWoods joined #lisp 2014-11-06T05:49:13Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-06T05:49:39Z PuercoPop quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-06T05:49:47Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2014-11-06T05:50:08Z rtra joined #lisp 2014-11-06T05:50:23Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-11-06T05:51:51Z drmeister: Hmm, clasp is getting confused by the symbolic link SICL/Code/Boot/Phase3/environment-classes.lisp which points to ../../Environment/environment-classes.lisp which doesn't exist. SBCL doesn't get confused by this 2014-11-06T05:52:44Z beach: You should probably stick to Cleavir. SICL is not in a stable state. 2014-11-06T05:53:19Z beach: ... nor is Cleavir, but it is a bit more stable. 2014-11-06T05:54:05Z beach: So I would start those directories in SICL/Code/Cleavir/. 2014-11-06T05:55:39Z drmeister: Got it - that's a way around this. Although this has brought to light a problem in Clasp. The error message I'm getting is really confusing. 2014-11-06T05:56:04Z miql joined #lisp 2014-11-06T05:56:24Z beach: I am glad to be able to help :) 2014-11-06T05:56:27Z beach vanishes for 20 minutes or so. 2014-11-06T05:58:11Z ananna joined #lisp 2014-11-06T05:58:12Z ananna quit (Changing host) 2014-11-06T05:58:12Z ananna joined #lisp 2014-11-06T06:00:16Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-06T06:00:41Z rtra joined #lisp 2014-11-06T06:01:01Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-06T06:01:21Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-11-06T06:02:44Z c4h joined #lisp 2014-11-06T06:03:25Z CrazyWoods quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-11-06T06:04:35Z frkout_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-06T06:05:28Z cabaire joined #lisp 2014-11-06T06:08:15Z kirin` joined #lisp 2014-11-06T06:08:17Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2014-11-06T06:11:17Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-11-06T06:12:00Z [mark] joined #lisp 2014-11-06T06:13:27Z kirin` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-06T06:13:47Z beach` joined #lisp 2014-11-06T06:15:22Z beach quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-06T06:18:16Z beach` is now known as beach 2014-11-06T06:18:20Z nalssee quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-06T06:19:00Z beach is back. 2014-11-06T06:20:50Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-11-06T06:21:00Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-11-06T06:21:36Z sabalaba joined #lisp 2014-11-06T06:22:10Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-06T06:23:13Z miql joined #lisp 2014-11-06T06:25:03Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-11-06T06:25:36Z theos joined #lisp 2014-11-06T06:25:58Z leo2007 quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 25.0.50.3) 2014-11-06T06:27:09Z Octothorpe joined #lisp 2014-11-06T06:27:46Z frkout quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-06T06:27:51Z araujo joined #lisp 2014-11-06T06:27:52Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-06T06:28:01Z sabalaba quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-06T06:29:52Z cabaire quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-06T06:33:08Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-06T06:35:13Z doesthiswork joined #lisp 2014-11-06T06:37:00Z [[mark]] joined #lisp 2014-11-06T06:37:00Z drmeister: Hmm, can't seem to get ASDF to find the .asd files whether I use your script or ASDF's newer methods. I'm going to bed and sleep on it. 2014-11-06T06:38:08Z supermanBlack joined #lisp 2014-11-06T06:38:13Z rtra joined #lisp 2014-11-06T06:38:26Z supermanBlack is now known as shortCircuit__ 2014-11-06T06:40:10Z [mark] quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-06T06:40:15Z doesthiswork quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-11-06T06:41:09Z beach: Sleep well. 2014-11-06T06:41:43Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-11-06T06:47:39Z nalssee joined #lisp 2014-11-06T06:50:25Z miql joined #lisp 2014-11-06T06:51:29Z Octothorpe quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-11-06T06:51:51Z cabaire joined #lisp 2014-11-06T06:52:24Z drmeister: Ok, setting: export CL_SOURCE_REGISTRY="/Users/meister/Development/SICL/Code/Cleavir//" Allows ASDF to find the system. 2014-11-06T06:52:55Z beach: Great! 2014-11-06T06:52:55Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-06T06:53:16Z drmeister: Then it fails because it wants an implementation specific function EXT::LISP-IMPLEMENTATION-VCS-ID which I haven't implemented. Hi ho - must dig into ECL tomorrow to figure out what that does. 2014-11-06T06:53:56Z drmeister: The double slash at the end of the pathname indicates to ASDF that it should search subdirectories. 2014-11-06T06:54:23Z drmeister: I couldn't get the ASDF configuration files to work at all. 2014-11-06T06:54:28Z drmeister: Good night. 2014-11-06T06:55:31Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-06T06:56:31Z harish quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-06T06:57:47Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-06T06:59:50Z bool_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-06T07:00:35Z bool_ joined #lisp 2014-11-06T07:01:13Z bool_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-11-06T07:01:32Z bool_ joined #lisp 2014-11-06T07:01:33Z rtra joined #lisp 2014-11-06T07:01:45Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-06T07:03:43Z xyjprc joined #lisp 2014-11-06T07:04:01Z ofosos quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-06T07:04:10Z xyjprc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-06T07:04:36Z bool_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-11-06T07:05:31Z bool_ joined #lisp 2014-11-06T07:06:04Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-06T07:07:19Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-11-06T07:07:46Z bool_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-11-06T07:08:36Z bool_ joined #lisp 2014-11-06T07:10:38Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-11-06T07:17:36Z miql joined #lisp 2014-11-06T07:22:22Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-06T07:24:55Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2014-11-06T07:26:44Z beach left #lisp 2014-11-06T07:27:39Z tesuji joined #lisp 2014-11-06T07:34:04Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-11-06T07:35:40Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-11-06T07:36:25Z ggVGc joined #lisp 2014-11-06T07:37:03Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1-dev) 2014-11-06T07:44:46Z miql joined #lisp 2014-11-06T07:47:02Z rx14 joined #lisp 2014-11-06T07:47:10Z ggVGc: is there a bare bones scheme interpretation along the lines of lua? I.e without any platform specific things and in ANSI C? I looked at chibi, which might be what I want? 2014-11-06T07:47:19Z ggVGc: implementation* 2014-11-06T07:47:26Z Grue`: tinyscheme? 2014-11-06T07:48:56Z Bike: #scheme might know better 2014-11-06T07:49:24Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-06T07:49:35Z ggVGc: oh, sorry, thought I was in scheme 2014-11-06T07:49:51Z Bike: i think that's the sort of thing that gets written on a weekend and forgotten 2014-11-06T07:50:02Z Bike: if it's barebones enough to be not standards conformant, i guess 2014-11-06T07:50:53Z Pollwa joined #lisp 2014-11-06T07:51:26Z Beetny joined #lisp 2014-11-06T07:53:21Z ggVGc: I don't have much personal lisp experience, but the reason I am looking for this is because I would like to add it to my current project as a way of trying out lisp for realworld use(which I never did before). I would think macros and continuations is not something you'd throw together in a weekend and forget? 2014-11-06T07:54:17Z sabalaba joined #lisp 2014-11-06T07:54:30Z ggVGc: I am currently using lua for extension because of the nonexistant external dependancies, but I don't particularly enjoy the language 2014-11-06T07:54:49Z H4ns: ggVGc: this channel is about common lisp, and common lisp is a very big language. 2014-11-06T07:54:51Z ggVGc: so if I could find a lisp implementation along the lines of the lua implementation, I would like to try that 2014-11-06T07:55:04Z ggVGc: H4ns: yeah, I understand, sorry 2014-11-06T07:55:06Z H4ns: ggVGc: if you are interested in a smaller, lisp-like language, try #scheme 2014-11-06T07:55:37Z c4h: ggVGc: I've used both tinyscheme and chibischeme as a embedded scripting language in my projects 2014-11-06T07:56:47Z harish joined #lisp 2014-11-06T07:57:38Z yorick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-06T07:59:00Z sabalaba quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-06T07:59:20Z Pollwa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-06T07:59:57Z yorick_ joined #lisp 2014-11-06T08:00:58Z arenz joined #lisp 2014-11-06T08:04:35Z CrazyWoods joined #lisp 2014-11-06T08:04:36Z ehaliewicz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-06T08:04:47Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-11-06T08:06:34Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-06T08:06:49Z corni joined #lisp 2014-11-06T08:06:49Z corni quit (Changing host) 2014-11-06T08:06:49Z corni joined #lisp 2014-11-06T08:07:01Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-11-06T08:07:59Z nha_ joined #lisp 2014-11-06T08:12:01Z miql joined #lisp 2014-11-06T08:13:31Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2014-11-06T08:13:35Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2014-11-06T08:14:08Z tesuji quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-06T08:15:04Z prxq joined #lisp 2014-11-06T08:15:39Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-06T08:15:48Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-06T08:16:54Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-06T08:17:59Z kirin` joined #lisp 2014-11-06T08:18:05Z rx14 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-06T08:20:22Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-06T08:22:28Z nostoi joined #lisp 2014-11-06T08:23:24Z swflint quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-06T08:23:26Z kirin` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-06T08:23:41Z corni quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-11-06T08:24:00Z kirin` joined #lisp 2014-11-06T08:24:45Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2014-11-06T08:25:10Z swflint_away joined #lisp 2014-11-06T08:25:22Z swflint_away is now known as swflint 2014-11-06T08:28:43Z kirin` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-06T08:30:29Z frkout quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-06T08:31:29Z resttime quit (Quit: resttime) 2014-11-06T08:33:04Z [[[mark]]] joined #lisp 2014-11-06T08:36:20Z [[mark]] quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-06T08:36:33Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-11-06T08:39:12Z miql joined #lisp 2014-11-06T08:39:28Z ggVGc left #lisp 2014-11-06T08:39:35Z ggVGc joined #lisp 2014-11-06T08:40:11Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-11-06T08:40:59Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-11-06T08:41:05Z stepnem joined #lisp 2014-11-06T08:42:21Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2014-11-06T08:44:00Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-06T08:45:46Z radioninja joined #lisp 2014-11-06T08:46:33Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-11-06T08:47:30Z pnpuff___ joined #lisp 2014-11-06T08:49:12Z newtestnick joined #lisp 2014-11-06T08:49:16Z newtestnick quit (Client Quit) 2014-11-06T08:51:58Z ecraven: what package or keywords should I be looking for to validate the types of slot values in my business objects? 2014-11-06T08:52:21Z whartung_ joined #lisp 2014-11-06T08:53:09Z whartung quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-06T08:53:09Z whartung_ is now known as whartung 2014-11-06T08:53:35Z H4ns: ecraven: are you looking for a library that validates the types of slot values in your business objects? 2014-11-06T08:54:02Z stassats: if you know the difference between keywords and other symbols, the choice should be clear 2014-11-06T08:54:32Z ecraven: H4ns: I'm assuming :type declarations in slot values actually don't do what I want (as they aren't strictly for type checking). I'll probably use cl-elephant as a storage, but haven't found anything there to do type validation so far :-/ 2014-11-06T08:55:08Z Shinmera: "The consequences of attempting to store in a slot a value that does not satisfy the type of the slot are undefined" http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_defcla.htm 2014-11-06T08:55:12Z stassats: maybe you should ask better questions 2014-11-06T08:56:02Z ecraven: well, the question is: how can I make sure that the type of values stored in a slot in my object always passes a certain predicate, and if it does not, I'd like to know which slots fail 2014-11-06T08:56:09Z asoentuh joined #lisp 2014-11-06T08:56:11Z asoentuh quit (Client Quit) 2014-11-06T08:56:16Z Shinmera: So you want class invariants? 2014-11-06T08:56:20Z frkout_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-06T08:56:26Z H4ns: ecraven: you'll probably have to roll your own to do that - a metaclass would be fun for that. 2014-11-06T08:56:31Z stassats: ecraven: custom metaclass + (setf slot-value-using-class) methods 2014-11-06T08:58:46Z ecraven: ok, that's what I was thinking about :) thank you! 2014-11-06T09:00:40Z rszeno joined #lisp 2014-11-06T09:00:58Z c74d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-06T09:01:04Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-06T09:03:30Z c74d joined #lisp 2014-11-06T09:04:25Z blab quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-11-06T09:04:33Z zickzackv joined #lisp 2014-11-06T09:06:07Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-06T09:06:19Z miql joined #lisp 2014-11-06T09:06:57Z redeemed joined #lisp 2014-11-06T09:09:43Z rjmacready_ joined #lisp 2014-11-06T09:11:04Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-06T09:15:10Z kirin` joined #lisp 2014-11-06T09:16:05Z LoicLisp joined #lisp 2014-11-06T09:16:12Z zeroXzero joined #lisp 2014-11-06T09:17:21Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-11-06T09:18:08Z c74d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-06T09:18:48Z zeroXzero quit (Remote 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seconds) 2014-11-06T13:10:59Z miql joined #lisp 2014-11-06T13:11:36Z cross: ~access 2014-11-06T13:11:42Z cross: whoops; sorry. 2014-11-06T13:15:45Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-06T13:16:19Z kirin` joined #lisp 2014-11-06T13:17:26Z ggVGc: pjb: I do mostly mobile development. does it compile/run on android/iOS/windows phone, and does it do runtime generation of code(in which case it will be rejected py Apple)? 2014-11-06T13:17:47Z ggVGc: it looks to me like ecl carries too much 2014-11-06T13:18:34Z pjb: ggVGc: ecl works on Android (cf. https://sites.google.com/site/maximaonandroid/ ) 2014-11-06T13:18:45Z ggVGc: ah, nice. I will look into it then 2014-11-06T13:18:46Z ggVGc: thanks 2014-11-06T13:19:05Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-11-06T13:19:17Z kirin` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-06T13:19:17Z pjb: ggVGc: otherwise you'll want MoCL. It doesn't specifically support windows phone, but I guess it would be usable there too (since it just generates bare C sources). 2014-11-06T13:19:46Z pjb: MoCL -> https://wukix.com 2014-11-06T13:20:43Z ggVGc: pjb: yep, if it runs on android and iOS it will almost certainly run on windows phone too, or at least be adaptable for it 2014-11-06T13:20:44Z sabalaba joined #lisp 2014-11-06T13:21:41Z ggVGc: yeah, this looks good 2014-11-06T13:21:45Z ggVGc: thanks 2014-11-06T13:23:09Z nalssee joined #lisp 2014-11-06T13:23:49Z ggVGc: ah, but not free of course 2014-11-06T13:23:51Z ggVGc: :( 2014-11-06T13:23:57Z ggVGc: but I will keep it in mind 2014-11-06T13:25:15Z sabalaba quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-06T13:27:29Z nalssee quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-06T13:27:44Z thawes quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-06T13:29:42Z sheep` joined #lisp 2014-11-06T13:30:18Z sheep` left #lisp 2014-11-06T13:33:37Z eudoxia: i wanted to try ecl on android but couldn't even get the android simulator working 2014-11-06T13:33:43Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-06T13:37:25Z wglb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-06T13:37:52Z madrik joined #lisp 2014-11-06T13:38:15Z miql joined #lisp 2014-11-06T13:42:48Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-06T13:42:53Z moore33: Unfortunately ccl doesn't work anymore on recent Android, though I've started a debugging attempt. 2014-11-06T13:43:00Z nalssee joined #lisp 2014-11-06T13:43:18Z moore33: But I remain impressed by Maxima on Android, which uses ecl. 2014-11-06T13:43:23Z Xach: nefarious clozurians! 2014-11-06T13:43:52Z moore33: Indeed. 2014-11-06T13:47:42Z kirin` joined #lisp 2014-11-06T13:49:35Z pranavrc quit 2014-11-06T13:53:01Z effy_ joined #lisp 2014-11-06T13:53:42Z effy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-06T13:53:44Z kirin` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-06T14:01:19Z Hache__ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-06T14:02:16Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-06T14:02:21Z thawes joined #lisp 2014-11-06T14:03:42Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2014-11-06T14:04:12Z stepnem joined #lisp 2014-11-06T14:04:32Z nalssee quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-06T14:05:14Z drdanmaku joined #lisp 2014-11-06T14:05:26Z miql joined #lisp 2014-11-06T14:09:26Z arenz joined #lisp 2014-11-06T14:09:43Z normanrichards quit 2014-11-06T14:10:25Z shortCircuit__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-06T14:10:41Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-06T14:16:30Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-11-06T14:16:35Z HOS_nerv quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-11-06T14:16:38Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-06T14:19:27Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-06T14:21:17Z Xach: i like the description of https://github.com/aarvid/clicl 2014-11-06T14:22:18Z faheem quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-06T14:23:20Z pnpuff___ joined #lisp 2014-11-06T14:26:17Z bullone quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-11-06T14:26:35Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-11-06T14:27:30Z pavelpenev joined #lisp 2014-11-06T14:27:48Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-11-06T14:29:59Z pnpuff___ is now known as pnpuff 2014-11-06T14:30:13Z pnpuff quit (Changing host) 2014-11-06T14:30:14Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-11-06T14:31:06Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-11-06T14:32:35Z miql joined #lisp 2014-11-06T14:33:28Z ehu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-06T14:35:23Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-11-06T14:35:38Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-11-06T14:37:10Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-06T14:38:13Z jusss: (read "hi bla") why it errors in sbcl? 2014-11-06T14:38:22Z jusss: but it's right in elisp 2014-11-06T14:38:58Z dim: (read-from-string "hi bla") 2014-11-06T14:39:10Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2014-11-06T14:39:20Z dim: read works on streams, not on strings 2014-11-06T14:39:22Z Sgeo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-06T14:39:27Z Grue`: well, elisp and common lisp are different languages so you shouldnt expect them to behave in the same way 2014-11-06T14:39:36Z dim: (with-input-from-string (s "hi bla") (read s)) 2014-11-06T14:39:37Z Sgeo joined #lisp 2014-11-06T14:41:43Z Grue`: that will read only HI though 2014-11-06T14:41:52Z tesuji joined #lisp 2014-11-06T14:42:15Z flan3002 joined #lisp 2014-11-06T14:43:01Z nalssee joined #lisp 2014-11-06T14:43:22Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-11-06T14:44:51Z ehu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-06T14:45:09Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-11-06T14:46:00Z pnpuff is now known as pnpuff___ 2014-11-06T14:47:09Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-06T14:48:39Z pnpuff___ left #lisp 2014-11-06T14:49:22Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-06T14:49:35Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-11-06T14:49:41Z stepnem joined #lisp 2014-11-06T14:50:06Z dioxriane joined #lisp 2014-11-06T14:51:56Z dioxriane is now known as dioxirane 2014-11-06T14:54:26Z ehu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-06T14:54:55Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-11-06T14:57:17Z ehu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-06T14:58:36Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-11-06T14:59:13Z normanrichards joined #lisp 2014-11-06T14:59:46Z miql joined #lisp 2014-11-06T15:00:00Z huza joined #lisp 2014-11-06T15:03:13Z ecraven: is there some sort of introductory video or tutorial on the process of developing an application with quicklisp, sbcl and emacs? how to organize my stuff, where to put the system, how to reload it properly after making changes to some files, organisational things like that? 2014-11-06T15:03:56Z jusss quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-11-06T15:04:18Z eudoxia: here's something for structuring a project https://github.com/fukamachi/cl-project 2014-11-06T15:04:33Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-11-06T15:05:17Z dioxirane quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-11-06T15:06:24Z Xach: ecraven: I wish there was something really great for that, but I only know of scattered one-off partial things 2014-11-06T15:08:06Z ecraven: I've done some lisp development, quite a bit of Scheme, I know how to do things with SLIME, but I'm really not sure how to go about this properly :) do I just write stuff into my files and C-c C-l load them after the changes? do I re-require the asdf system? etc. :) 2014-11-06T15:08:28Z eudoxia: i usually do (ql:quickload :my-system) on the slime repl 2014-11-06T15:08:29Z Grue`: C-c C-k to reload the whole file 2014-11-06T15:08:42Z eudoxia: i'm sure i'm a pleb who's doing it wrong though 2014-11-06T15:08:42Z oGMo: i'm guessing most people probably pick it up after just writing something 2014-11-06T15:08:52Z dlowe: ecraven: Start your project in a root directory with the name of your project. For a typical lisp project, you need project/doc project/src and project/test. Make two asdf system files: project/project.asd and project/project.test.asd 2014-11-06T15:09:00Z oGMo: i write an .asd, package.lisp, and go from there, compiling forms/files on the fly 2014-11-06T15:09:39Z Grue`: ecraven: also check out quickproject 2014-11-06T15:09:39Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-06T15:09:39Z oGMo: occasionally restarting the lisp to make sure everything actually loads from scratch 2014-11-06T15:09:40Z dlowe: for larger projects, I make a project/compile directory for package defs, macros, and other compilation-affecting things 2014-11-06T15:09:47Z sabalaba joined #lisp 2014-11-06T15:10:02Z dlowe: Then I make the src module dependent on the compile module 2014-11-06T15:10:55Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2014-11-06T15:11:09Z dlowe: In project.asd, I do a system definition. I also add a test-op method specialized on the project system, which loads the project.test system, then starts the test run 2014-11-06T15:11:37Z ecraven: dlowe: do quickproject or cl-project prepare those things? 2014-11-06T15:11:44Z eudoxia: ecraven: yes 2014-11-06T15:11:45Z dlowe: When all that's done, I do ln -sft ~/quicklisp/local-projects project/*.asd 2014-11-06T15:11:48Z dlowe: some of them, yeah 2014-11-06T15:11:59Z ecraven: ok, so I'll just try to use one of these and see where it goes :D 2014-11-06T15:12:02Z ecraven: thanks to all of you ! 2014-11-06T15:12:03Z dlowe: oh, and I use git and github for everything 2014-11-06T15:12:22Z dlowe: so I also add project/COPYING and project/README.md files 2014-11-06T15:12:27Z eudoxia: why symlink projects to local-projects when you can tell ASDF to, e.g. find systems in ~/code 2014-11-06T15:13:02Z oGMo: so yeah, everyone does things a little differently :p 2014-11-06T15:13:09Z dlowe: because I might not want everything under ~/code to be accessible 2014-11-06T15:13:10Z kirin` joined #lisp 2014-11-06T15:13:18Z dlowe: especially if I have multiple versions of something 2014-11-06T15:13:30Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-11-06T15:13:52Z dlowe didn't realize this was going to be graded. 2014-11-06T15:14:15Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-11-06T15:14:21Z sabalaba quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-11-06T15:14:47Z dlowe: well, I guess that was a waste of typing. 2014-11-06T15:15:52Z oGMo: dlowe: eh, i do far worse, i have a shell script for managing asd symlinks to wherever the central repository is/was 2014-11-06T15:16:55Z dlowe: Well, that and quicklisp/local-projects is a stable point that I can depend on 2014-11-06T15:17:04Z dlowe: and I don't really feel that way about asdf directory configuration 2014-11-06T15:17:05Z oGMo: yeah i should really switch to that myself 2014-11-06T15:17:48Z kirin` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-06T15:18:30Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-11-06T15:19:18Z Grue`: oh, asdf:*central-registry* that sure was a thing 2014-11-06T15:19:58Z BitPuffin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-06T15:20:59Z oGMo: i still link to ~/.local/share/common-lisp/source :P 2014-11-06T15:21:23Z oGMo: i'm not even entirely sure what makes it look there anymore 2014-11-06T15:21:57Z effy_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-06T15:22:05Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-06T15:23:17Z normanrichards quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-06T15:23:18Z prxq: I don't get autocompletion in slime for .asd's not in *central-registry* 2014-11-06T15:23:27Z effy joined #lisp 2014-11-06T15:23:42Z prxq: now maybe it's me that didn't bother with the config 2014-11-06T15:23:51Z bullone joined #lisp 2014-11-06T15:24:00Z prxq: i mean .asd not in directories in *central-registry* 2014-11-06T15:24:06Z oGMo: i don't even know how autocomplete works, but i've never really thought to want it there 2014-11-06T15:25:17Z prxq: in slime, hit ,l and hit tab 2014-11-06T15:25:18Z Grue`: strange, I have configured it just using (:tree ...) and I'm getting autocomplete with ,load-system in slime 2014-11-06T15:25:55Z Ethan- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-06T15:25:59Z oGMo: oh, there's a comma command for that? ;) 2014-11-06T15:26:01Z Grue`: though i mostly use (ql:quickload) anyway, it's much less noisy 2014-11-06T15:26:28Z ahungry_ joined #lisp 2014-11-06T15:26:57Z miql joined #lisp 2014-11-06T15:31:39Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-06T15:34:37Z k-stz joined #lisp 2014-11-06T15:34:38Z pavelpenev quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-06T15:35:31Z madmalik quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-11-06T15:37:25Z huza quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2014-11-06T15:38:15Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-11-06T15:40:54Z rx14 joined #lisp 2014-11-06T15:41:10Z flan3002 left #lisp 2014-11-06T15:41:18Z Xach: i need to fix that a little 2014-11-06T15:42:14Z ehu_ joined #lisp 2014-11-06T15:43:31Z kirin` joined #lisp 2014-11-06T15:43:45Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-11-06T15:44:41Z cy joined #lisp 2014-11-06T15:46:52Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-11-06T15:47:31Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-06T15:49:13Z kirin` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-06T15:50:14Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-06T15:52:59Z Shinmera: isn't *central-registry* deprecated or something? 2014-11-06T15:53:57Z ehu_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-06T15:54:10Z miql joined #lisp 2014-11-06T15:54:31Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-11-06T15:55:57Z Grue`: yes 2014-11-06T15:56:52Z ehu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-06T15:58:26Z Xach: That doesn't really matter, though. 2014-11-06T15:58:31Z Xach: It's the only way to do certain things. 2014-11-06T15:58:36Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-11-06T15:58:44Z Xach: Or, the only simple way to do certain things. 2014-11-06T15:58:47Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-11-06T15:59:11Z Shinmera: What was the reason for the deprecation then? 2014-11-06T15:59:17Z miql quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-06T15:59:21Z dlowe: no, the simple way is to stick it into quicklisp/local-projects and forget about it 2014-11-06T15:59:30Z oGMo: Shinmera: like everything else in CL, saying "we wish we hadn't done it this way" 2014-11-06T15:59:53Z Xach: Shinmera: fare wanted to encourage the new source registry api 2014-11-06T16:00:11Z Shinmera: oGMo: Haha, I can understand that, but if what Xach says is true and there's no good alternative even now I don't think a deprecation is well-warranted. 2014-11-06T16:00:23Z Xach: ~/common-lisp/ works with new ASDFs 2014-11-06T16:00:29Z oGMo: Shinmera: well, sure 2014-11-06T16:02:19Z ehu_ joined #lisp 2014-11-06T16:02:34Z ehu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-06T16:02:50Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-06T16:05:14Z dfox_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-06T16:07:25Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-11-06T16:08:54Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2014-11-06T16:09:09Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-11-06T16:09:15Z Cymew: Why do I get the impression very few understand even a fraction of asdf? 2014-11-06T16:09:31Z gingerale joined #lisp 2014-11-06T16:09:43Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2014-11-06T16:09:52Z Shinmera: Probably because it's true. 2014-11-06T16:09:52Z Xach: It's a power law with Fare on the left 2014-11-06T16:09:55Z prxq: Cymew: observation, perhaps? 2014-11-06T16:10:15Z Cymew: ...could be >( 2014-11-06T16:10:24Z nalssee quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-06T16:10:32Z Shinmera: I've long intended to try and fully understand asdf once I'm sufficiently bored. 2014-11-06T16:10:39Z Shinmera: (this has not happened yet) 2014-11-06T16:10:39Z ehu_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-06T16:10:44Z Cymew: Good luck! 2014-11-06T16:11:37Z prxq: you can go a very long way as a common lisp dev without having to understand much of it. 2014-11-06T16:11:44Z ecraven: again a question on web development. where do people usually do thing like start hunchentoot and open an elephant store? how do I ensure they don't get run multiple times when I reload my code after changes? 2014-11-06T16:12:00Z Cymew: I'm too stupid. I sat hours today and couldn't understand why my use of MEMBER didn't work, until I realized there was a :TEST keyword argument I had to use. I have no illusions of ever understanding ASDF. 2014-11-06T16:13:38Z prxq: ecraven: in general, objects that represent services are bound to *specials* using defvar, so they don't get restarted when the code gets loaded again. 2014-11-06T16:14:25Z Xach: ecraven: it's not uncommon to do things like (ensure- ...) where it checks to see if exists before doing what's needed to make it. 2014-11-06T16:15:04Z miql joined #lisp 2014-11-06T16:16:01Z Grue`: ecraven: I have a function like (start-app) that I put all initialization into; and it gets executed on startup by a script 2014-11-06T16:16:04Z leo2007 quit (Quit: restart rooter) 2014-11-06T16:17:07Z ecraven: Grue`: could I bother you to paste the relevant pieces somewhere? does "startup" mean loading the system? 2014-11-06T16:17:11Z foom joined #lisp 2014-11-06T16:19:47Z kirin` joined #lisp 2014-11-06T16:20:25Z leo2007 joined #lisp 2014-11-06T16:20:44Z prxq: ecraven: also, this is usually less of a problem than you perhaps think. Why do you think things will be restarted over and over again? 2014-11-06T16:21:04Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-11-06T16:22:10Z Grue`: ok heres my init script https://gist.github.com/tshatrov/b28d61c2d1e60ca91a5d (mostly copypasted from one of the links in my planet lisp post) 2014-11-06T16:23:04Z ecraven: prxq: how do I re-load things after changing files? right now, I just C-c C-k (compile-and-load), which would load things over and over again 2014-11-06T16:23:51Z oGMo: ecraven: that compiles and loads the file, not everything.. you can also C-c C-c and just compile a form 2014-11-06T16:24:09Z ecraven: oGMo: right now I only have one file ;) 2014-11-06T16:24:12Z Grue`: ecraven: C-c C-k would not execute code that's inside of a function; you can make global variables that get changed defvars so their values stay the same 2014-11-06T16:24:13Z ecraven: so that is "everything" 2014-11-06T16:24:45Z oGMo: ecraven: i mean, it doen't reload your lisp etc :P 2014-11-06T16:24:56Z kirin` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-06T16:25:21Z oGMo: unless your file does that itself, i guess, but ;P 2014-11-06T16:25:23Z ehu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-06T16:25:27Z kirin` joined #lisp 2014-11-06T16:25:44Z Grue`: if you have something like (defparameter *connection* nil) and then set connection later then this is a mistake, you should change it into (defvar *connection* nil) 2014-11-06T16:25:50Z ecraven: Grue`: the library-to-web-app blog post? just found that, interesting! 2014-11-06T16:26:30Z normanrichards joined #lisp 2014-11-06T16:26:31Z normanrichards quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-06T16:26:37Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-11-06T16:30:37Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-11-06T16:30:46Z kirin` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-06T16:31:37Z kirin` joined #lisp 2014-11-06T16:32:12Z lduros joined #lisp 2014-11-06T16:36:50Z kirin` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-06T16:36:55Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-06T16:39:30Z redeemed quit (Quit: q) 2014-11-06T16:42:36Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-06T16:42:41Z drmeister: Does anyone know what this ASDF warning means: Warning: compiling "cleavir-environment" "eval"# completed without its output file #P"/Users/meister/.cache/common-lisp/ecl-0.1-b628ecd30776f0b38bb6ba8e35877b23612b062d-macosx/Users/meister/Development/SICL/Code/Cleavir/Environment/eval.o" 2014-11-06T16:43:35Z drmeister: It's followed by: ;;; Warning: loading FASL for "cleavir-environment" "eval"# completed without its input file #P"/Users/meister/.cache/common-lisp/ecl-0.1-b628ecd30776f0b38bb6ba8e35877b23612b062d-macosx/Users/meister/Development/SICL/Code/Cleavir/Environment/eval.o" 2014-11-06T16:44:03Z drmeister: There were no errors - just a bunch of warnings like this. 2014-11-06T16:46:31Z leo2007 quit (Quit: #strongswan) 2014-11-06T16:47:36Z cabaire joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:14:55Z 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2014-11-15T20:14:55Z names: replcated necronian alchemis7 eagleflo Fade s_e z0d setheus dan64 Borbus honkfestival ferada galdor bcoburn tkd reb newcup yauz fmu inklesspen daimrod Neptu micro^ eak_ cross dim Mandus zbigniew tstc yeltzooo rotty_ sigjuice p_l|backup djinni` nitro_idiot felideon ttm stokachu tomaw 2014-11-15T20:15:02Z wooden joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:15:04Z bdr3552 left #lisp 2014-11-15T20:15:21Z tessier quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-15T20:15:22Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-15T20:15:22Z xristos quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-15T20:15:29Z Nshag joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:15:34Z yeticry joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:15:42Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:15:47Z tessier joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:16:05Z drmeister: The EXT::LAMBDA-BLOCK is in a CONS as the first argument of FUNCTION 2014-11-15T20:16:08Z drmeister: CLEAVIR-GENERATE-AST::FORM -->(COMMON-LISP:FUNCTION (EXT:LAMBDA-BLOCK COMMON-LISP:MACRO-FUNCTION (COMMON-LISP:SYMBOL COMMON-LISP:&OPTIONAL (CORE:ENVIRONMENT nil ENVIRONMENT-P )@0x1169ac7d8 )@0x1169ab0d8 (COMMON-LISP:DECLARE (CORE::C-GLOBAL )@0x1167dd1d8 )@0x1167dd058 (COMMON-LISP:COND ((COMMON-LISP:TYPEP CORE:ENVIRONMENT 'CORE:ENVIRONMENT 2014-11-15T20:16:08Z drmeister: )@0x1169b3c18 (CORE:MACRO-FUNCTION COMMON-LISP:SYMBOL CORE:ENVIRONMENT )@0x1169b4a98 )@0x1169b3058 (CORE:ENVIRONMENT (CLEAVIR-ENVIRONMENT:MACRO-FUNCTION COMMON-LISP:SYMBOL CORE:ENVIRONMENT )@0x1169b9fd8 )@0x1169b55d8 (COMMON-LISP:T (CLEAVIR-ENVIRONMENT:MACRO-FUNCTION COMMON-LISP:SYMBOL *CLASP-ENV* )@0x1169c2918 )@0x1169c2dd8 )@0x1169af358 2014-11-15T20:16:08Z drmeister: )@0x1167dfdd8 )@0x1167dfb58 2014-11-15T20:16:31Z arrsim joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:16:41Z jumssi joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:16:49Z redline6561_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-15T20:16:49Z joast quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-15T20:17:49Z oconnore joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:18:12Z johs joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:20:16Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-15T20:20:34Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:20:57Z micahjam97 joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:21:07Z jayne_ joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:21:25Z ans joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:21:26Z Soft quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-15T20:21:42Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:21:55Z redline6561 joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:22:52Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-15T20:23:10Z micahjam97: what's the difference between setf, defvar, and defparameter? 2014-11-15T20:23:33Z stopbit quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-15T20:24:16Z harish joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:24:17Z H4ns joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:24:24Z malglim joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:24:38Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:24:48Z micahjam97: drewc, stassats, Xach anyone? 2014-11-15T20:25:35Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:26:39Z micahjam97 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-11-15T20:27:41Z Bike: setf changes a binding, defvar establishes a variable as special and sometimes sets it, defparameter establishes a variable as special and definitely sets it 2014-11-15T20:27:50Z xristos joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:27:51Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:27:58Z xristos is now known as Guest78705 2014-11-15T20:28:04Z micahjam97 joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:28:28Z c74d joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:29:54Z micahjam97: if anyone answered my question from before, please say it again. On the other hand , the request may have not even gone through because I'm experiencing network problems, so I will repeat: 2014-11-15T20:29:57Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-15T20:30:13Z micahjam97: what is the difference between setf, defvar, and defparameter? 2014-11-15T20:30:43Z Soft joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:30:43Z jayne quit (Ping timeout: 622 seconds) 2014-11-15T20:30:47Z H4ns: micahjam97: what is the difference between a fork, a knife and a spoon? 2014-11-15T20:30:50Z Soft quit (Changing host) 2014-11-15T20:30:51Z Soft joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:31:03Z Bike: micahjam97: setf changes a binding, defvar establishes a variable as special and sometimes sets it, defparameter establishes a variable as special and definitely sets it 2014-11-15T20:31:36Z micahjam97: what do you mean establishes it as special 2014-11-15T20:31:47Z Soft quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-15T20:31:47Z tajjada quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-15T20:31:50Z pnpuff quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-11-15T20:31:53Z Bike: It tells the lisp system that it's a special variable. 2014-11-15T20:31:55Z Bike: clhs special 2014-11-15T20:31:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_specia.htm 2014-11-15T20:32:08Z Bike: "special" meaning this specific lisp thing - that it's dynamically bound rather than lexically. 2014-11-15T20:32:32Z malglim quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-15T20:32:37Z malbertife joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:32:43Z micahjam97: Bike: okay then, I think I get it now 2014-11-15T20:34:06Z Soft joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:34:26Z tajjada joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:34:30Z micahjam97: another question, when I have a function that's supposed to print something, then read from the keyboard, it always reads first then prints. Why is that? I know I can stop it by putting (force-output) before it reads, but I don't know why it works. 2014-11-15T20:36:49Z drmeister: pjb: In this instance the Cleavir code-walker is walking over a FUNCTION special operator and the first argument is an expression: (ext::lambda-block macro-function (symbol &optional environment) ...) I've ensured that the ext::lambda-block macro is declared very early in the bootstrapping process. 2014-11-15T20:38:34Z Bike: micahjam97: output is buffered, since it's slow, so it tries to do a lot of writing at once 2014-11-15T20:38:46Z drmeister: I'm not sure at the moment why the EXT::LAMBDA-BLOCK is still in the argument to FUNCTION - it should have been expanded as a macro, shouldn't it? Maybe I don't have it defined in the correct namespace - checking... 2014-11-15T20:38:52Z micahjam97 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-11-15T20:39:20Z drmeister: namespace -> package 2014-11-15T20:39:59Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:40:21Z drdo joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:41:07Z drmeister: What is supposed to happen in the case (FUNCTION (XXX ...)) where XXX is a macro that expands to (LAMBDA ...)? 2014-11-15T20:43:56Z Fullma quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-15T20:44:45Z drmeister: I see where it's coming from: (macroexpand '(defun foo () (bar))) --> (PROGN (CORE::FSET 'FOO #'(EXT:LAMBDA-BLOCK FOO NIL (DECLARE (CORE::C-GLOBAL)) (BAR))) NIL 'FOO) 2014-11-15T20:45:05Z jumssi quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-15T20:45:56Z swflint_away joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:46:21Z swflint_away is now known as swflint 2014-11-15T20:46:32Z nydel joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:46:43Z Grue`: how would the macro expand inside of (function )? 2014-11-15T20:46:52Z srcerer_ is now known as srcerer 2014-11-15T20:47:02Z drmeister: The Cleavir code walker is having trouble with this - I see why, the EXT:LAMBDA-BLOCK, I'm not certain how a conforming Common Lisp would deal with a situation like this because the DEFUN macro is defined in terms of EXT:LAMBDA-BLOCK. 2014-11-15T20:47:35Z drmeister: Grue` it can't - that begs the question, how does a conforming Common Lisp deal with a situation like this? 2014-11-15T20:47:37Z Grue`: because ECL has defined #' to work with ext:lambda-block, it must be hardcoded 2014-11-15T20:47:48Z gz_ is now known as gz 2014-11-15T20:48:10Z gko joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:48:12Z drmeister: Yes, and so has Clasp. 2014-11-15T20:48:45Z micahjam97 joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:49:03Z drmeister: So what pjb was telling me earlier about writing macros for non-standard special operators doesn't quite apply here. LAMBDA is not a special operator, it's more fundamental than that. 2014-11-15T20:49:06Z Shinmera- quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2014-11-15T20:49:23Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:49:51Z micahjam97: okay guys, I finally managed a stable internet connection 2014-11-15T20:50:23Z Grue`: lambda can name a function expression when it's inside of function or when it's car of s-expression 2014-11-15T20:50:41Z drmeister: Why the heck would ECL do this? Specifically define EXT::LAMBDA-BLOCK and modify FUNCTION to accept it. It appears to totally spoil Common Lisp conformity and break code walkers. 2014-11-15T20:51:46Z Guest78705 is now known as xristos` 2014-11-15T20:51:52Z micahjam97: now, again: when I have a fnuction that first prints something then reads user input, it read first, then prints out. Why is that? I know I can stop it by typing (force-output), but I don't know why that is. 2014-11-15T20:51:55Z drmeister: I'm wondering if I'm interpreting this correctly. EXT:LAMBDA-BLOCK now seems so bizarre. 2014-11-15T20:52:08Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:52:09Z xristos` is now known as xristos 2014-11-15T20:52:15Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:52:39Z xristos is now known as Guest38375 2014-11-15T20:52:49Z Guest38375 is now known as xristos` 2014-11-15T20:52:58Z Grue`: i'm not sure if this behavior is nonconforming, clhs doesn't really say nothing but symbol lambda can define a lambda expression 2014-11-15T20:52:58Z tesuji quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-15T20:52:59Z xristos` is now known as xristos 2014-11-15T20:53:03Z xristos quit (Changing host) 2014-11-15T20:53:03Z xristos joined #lisp 2014-11-15T20:53:41Z Bike: micahjam97: output is buffered, since it's slow, so it tries to do a lot of writing at once 2014-11-15T20:54:00Z drmeister: But a code walker would code FUNCTION to only accept LAMBDA as the head of a CONS that was FUNCTIONs first argument. 2014-11-15T20:54:18Z micahjam97: Bike: so what does (force-output) do? 2014-11-15T20:54:28Z Bike: forces the buffer to be output 2014-11-15T20:55:02Z Grue`: technically a code walker can just check that it's not setf, and if otherwise, assume it's a lambda expression 2014-11-15T20:55:18Z drmeister: pjb: Do you have a moment? 2014-11-15T20:56:09Z micahjam97: Bike: so I can assume that this is not a problem with clisp? Because the author of the book I learning from uses clisp. 2014-11-15T20:56:31Z Bike: it's not unique to clisp, or even to CL, no 2014-11-15T20:56:44Z Bike: it's also not a problem 2014-11-15T20:56:47Z Grue`: micahjam97: CLISP does buffer output as well 2014-11-15T20:57:07Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-15T20:57:10Z micahjam97: Bike: I didn't mean unique 2014-11-15T20:57:43Z micahjam97: Grue`: In 'Land of Lisp', he never mentions anything about buffer output or anything 2014-11-15T21:00:11Z Grue`: well, now you know 2014-11-15T21:00:25Z Grue`: and knowing is half the battle 2014-11-15T21:01:19Z micahjam97: Grue`: I heard that somewhere 2014-11-15T21:01:30Z MoALTz__ joined #lisp 2014-11-15T21:01:40Z micahjam97: I think it was in PCL or something or maybe LoL 2014-11-15T21:03:06Z Beetny joined #lisp 2014-11-15T21:03:09Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2014-11-15T21:03:46Z micahjam97 quit (Quit: micahjam97) 2014-11-15T21:04:28Z MoALTz_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-15T21:05:09Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2014-11-15T21:05:42Z MoALTz__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-15T21:07:53Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-15T21:10:06Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2014-11-15T21:11:09Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2014-11-15T21:11:57Z drmeister: Hmmm, I found this from Juan Jo written 9 years ago regarding EXT:LAMBDA-BLOCK and code walkers. 2014-11-15T21:12:03Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/x3jcGtKd 2014-11-15T21:12:20Z MoALTz_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-15T21:12:27Z pjb: drmeister: yes? 2014-11-15T21:12:44Z njsg quit (Quit: broken IRC network is broken) 2014-11-15T21:12:49Z pjb: drmeister: the special operator is FUNCTION, and EXT::LAMBDA-BLOCK is just a symbol. 2014-11-15T21:12:51Z drmeister: pjb: Thanks for getting back to me. I've learned a little more about the problem. 2014-11-15T21:12:55Z pjb: it's the special operator FUNCTION that has been extended. 2014-11-15T21:12:56Z njsg joined #lisp 2014-11-15T21:13:17Z drmeister: How can this be done in a conforming way to work with code-walkers? 2014-11-15T21:13:31Z pjb: This is a difficult case. 2014-11-15T21:13:38Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2014-11-15T21:13:52Z drmeister: The only way I can see to deal with this is to have FUNCTION macro expand its first argument before it processes it. 2014-11-15T21:14:02Z pjb: Since FUNCTION is a special operator, code walkers will want to walk it directly, as specified by CLHS. 2014-11-15T21:14:10Z drmeister: But that is not mentioned in the CLHS 2014-11-15T21:14:27Z pjb: Indeed. 2014-11-15T21:14:57Z pjb: This is something I didn't knew, but when there are extensions to the specified special operators, that breaks the code walkers. 2014-11-15T21:15:17Z drmeister: Am I interpreting this correctly? This EXT:LAMBDA-BLOCK breaks code-walkers in ECL? 2014-11-15T21:15:41Z pjb: My advice would be to not use CL:FUNCTION around EXT::LAMBDA-BLOCK, but EXT::FUNCTION, so all the above discussion could apply to a special operator EXT::FUNCTION, since it cannot apply to CL:FUNCTION. 2014-11-15T21:16:07Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-15T21:16:10Z drmeister: Did you see the quote from Juan Jo above? http://comp.lang.lisp.narkive.com/hMBlWfx5/what-are-allowed-special-forms-clhs-clarification 2014-11-15T21:16:12Z pjb: Yes, EXT:LAMBDA-BLOCK is an extension for the special operator FUNCTION. 2014-11-15T21:16:35Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2014-11-15T21:16:39Z drmeister: He seems a bit nonchalant about it - I'm freakin' out (figuratively). 2014-11-15T21:17:52Z pjb: Yes, but as I told you, the clhs requires that non-standard special operators have a macro-function. Well, it doesn't talk specifially of new (extensions) special operators, but when a CL macro is implemented as a special operator. 2014-11-15T21:18:17Z pjb: But I take it that if an implementation has a non-standard special operator, it should have a macro, so that code walkers can still work. 2014-11-15T21:18:25Z drmeister: Ok, well at least I have the shape of the problem now. ECL extends FUNCTION, that breaks Cleavir's code walker. It seems so arbitrary and easily avoidable. 2014-11-15T21:18:37Z francogrex quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-15T21:18:44Z drmeister: I see, so there should be a new macro for FUNCTION to handle the nonstandard behavior? 2014-11-15T21:19:25Z pjb: And while the CLHS admits extensions to the CL language, it's an impair from the part of the implementation to extend standard special operators, since that prevents code walkers to work. Implementations should make their extensions as allowed standard function or macro extensions (eg. additionnal keywords), or as new operators. 2014-11-15T21:19:52Z Grue`: drmeister: wouldn't it be easy to patch cleavir's code walker to handle this particular case? 2014-11-15T21:20:09Z pjb: drmeister: I don't think a macro for CL:FUNCTION dealing with EXT:LAMBDA-BLOCK would help, since I think that code walkers are entitled to process CL:FUNCTION specially in any case. 2014-11-15T21:20:22Z pjb: Grue`: new implementations are created everydays. 2014-11-15T21:20:53Z pjb: For me, the solution is to modify ECL/Clasp, to use a different special operator than CL:FUNCTION for EXT:LAMBDA-BLOCK. 2014-11-15T21:20:59Z Grue`: the goal is to be ECL compatible, so drmeister should focus on that 2014-11-15T21:21:10Z drmeister: Grue`: it would be - I was looking for a different solution that wouldn't require that. I don't think beach will want to start incorporating implementation dependent code like that. 2014-11-15T21:21:15Z pjb: In clisp, there's also an extension on CL:FUNCTION, adding the name as a second parameter. This is bad. 2014-11-15T21:21:39Z pjb: The bug is also with ECL, a patch should be provided to both. 2014-11-15T21:24:17Z Grue`: so the code walker should only recurse down the first argument of function and support symbols other than cl:lambda to define a lambda expression; this way it will be compatible with both 2014-11-15T21:25:09Z Grue`: the patch wouldn't involve #+ecl or stuff like that 2014-11-15T21:25:19Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-15T21:25:41Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-15T21:26:25Z Grue`: oh wait, i just noticed the difference in syntax 2014-11-15T21:26:59Z drmeister: Grue`: That is one solution. Another is to use #+ecl and #+clasp to redefine the macros that use ext:lambda-block and convert them to use (lambda (...) (block xxx ...)) 2014-11-15T21:27:06Z Grue`: maybe it should look for the first arglist or something 2014-11-15T21:28:02Z ehaliewicz joined #lisp 2014-11-15T21:28:26Z araujo joined #lisp 2014-11-15T21:28:27Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2014-11-15T21:28:27Z araujo joined #lisp 2014-11-15T21:29:52Z drmeister: There's only about 30 places where it's used - UGH 2014-11-15T21:30:32Z Grue`: maybe there's a need for *another* code walker that gets macroexpanded code and replaces all instances of (function (ext:lambda-block with normal code 2014-11-15T21:30:45Z drmeister: Or I can just reimplement Cleavir's FUNCTION code walking function 2014-11-15T21:32:23Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-11-15T21:39:34Z simon` joined #lisp 2014-11-15T21:41:07Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-11-15T21:43:41Z meiji11 joined #lisp 2014-11-15T21:43:43Z simon quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-15T21:44:42Z pjb: Grue`: the standard is a contract with TWO sides. 2014-11-15T21:44:55Z pjb: You cannot expect libraries to keep adding #+ cases. 2014-11-15T21:45:10Z malbertife quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-11-15T21:45:49Z pjb: So clearly, the spirit of CLHS is to have a fixed set of "special operators" whose semantics can be counted upon and that shall not be extended. Extensions should use other symbols. 2014-11-15T21:46:41Z xrash joined #lisp 2014-11-15T21:46:58Z pjb: The problem here is that you cannot put a macro on those standard special operators, notably CL:FUNCTION because there is no other way to create closures. 2014-11-15T21:47:28Z pjb: For LET, you could expand to ((LAMBDA …) …), but in the case of FUNCTION (and I guess a few other special operators), you could not. 2014-11-15T21:47:40Z pjb: So CL:FUNCTION should definitely NEVER be extended by implementations. 2014-11-15T21:48:08Z pjb: What implementations could do, if they wanted to use CL:FUNCTION, is to insert stuff in the lambda expression (eg. as declarations). 2014-11-15T21:50:08Z pjb: For the specific case of EXT:LAMBDA-BLOCK, there's no reason to have it really, you could just write (function (lambda (…) (block name …))) instead of (function (ext:lambda-block name (lambda (…) …))). It brings nothing. 2014-11-15T21:53:09Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-11-15T21:53:20Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2014-11-15T21:53:30Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-15T22:01:48Z JokesOnYou77_ quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2014-11-15T22:03:22Z defaultxr quit (Quit: bbl) 2014-11-15T22:06:15Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-15T22:12:27Z vap1 joined #lisp 2014-11-15T22:13:05Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-15T22:16:40Z nyef joined #lisp 2014-11-15T22:19:28Z stopbit joined #lisp 2014-11-15T22:20:44Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-15T22:24:00Z xrash joined #lisp 2014-11-15T22:27:53Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2014-11-15T22:29:13Z ndrei_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-15T22:33:34Z drmeister: pjb: I agree. Why couldn't they just recognize and optimize on (lambda (...) (block XXX ...)) 2014-11-15T22:33:37Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-15T22:34:42Z Bike: would extensions to FUNCTION include extended function names? cos a lot of implementations do that... 2014-11-15T22:36:44Z izirku joined #lisp 2014-11-15T22:36:48Z drmeister: What are extended function names? Do you mean "extended function designators" as in the CLHS glossary? 2014-11-15T22:37:32Z Bike: things like ccl's nlambda and sbcl's ctor. (function (nlambda ...)) is a syntax in ccl 2014-11-15T22:40:15Z drmeister: I would think that those break code-walkers as well. Either that or I'm missing something here. 2014-11-15T22:41:58Z tristero joined #lisp 2014-11-15T22:42:50Z ehaliewicz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-15T22:43:02Z drmeister: Is this why code walkers have such a bad reputation? All these implementations messing with a perfectly good FUNCTION specification? 2014-11-15T22:43:45Z wasamasa: aren't code walkers essentially the base for more sophisticated code transformation with macros? 2014-11-15T22:45:12Z drmeister: I don't know but messing with FUNCTION is why we can't have nice things. 2014-11-15T22:45:44Z wasamasa: such as what ITERATE does 2014-11-15T22:54:57Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-15T22:55:13Z tomwalker joined #lisp 2014-11-15T22:55:20Z tomwalker: hi there 2014-11-15T22:55:27Z ehaliewicz joined #lisp 2014-11-15T22:55:47Z tomwalker: i am trying to implement a graph algorithm to calculate the 2014-11-15T22:55:47Z tomwalker: strongly connected components of a graph using kosarajus algorithm 2014-11-15T22:56:05Z farhaven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-15T22:56:10Z tomwalker: it works for small graphs, but for one with about 850,000 nodes i exhaust the stack 2014-11-15T22:56:15Z tomwalker: here is the code on paste bin: http://pastebin.com/eTujg9cZ 2014-11-15T22:56:23Z tomwalker: any advice on how to optimise? 2014-11-15T22:58:23Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2014-11-15T22:58:56Z ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 2014-11-15T23:00:52Z meiji11: do you come from scheme, by chance? 2014-11-15T23:01:27Z nyef: ... Calling LOAD from within a DEFUN seems a touch odd... 2014-11-15T23:01:32Z tomwalker: no, most of my experience is with python 2014-11-15T23:01:51Z meiji11: okay. 2014-11-15T23:02:10Z emma_ is now known as emma 2014-11-15T23:02:14Z tomwalker: trying to enlighten myself with lisp! 2014-11-15T23:02:38Z meiji11: tail call optimization isn't part of the common lisp standard, so it's probably the recursion. even then, it doesn't you appear you're using tail calls, in some places. 2014-11-15T23:03:53Z nyef: The Python compiler does TCO when appropriate, though, so if you're using SBCL you should be getting that benefit. I have no idea about any of the other implementations. 2014-11-15T23:03:54Z Petit_Dejeuner_ joined #lisp 2014-11-15T23:03:58Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-11-15T23:04:10Z nyef: ... Using DEFPARAMETER inside a defun as well? This is bizarre... 2014-11-15T23:04:43Z meiji11: yes, that's why I asked about scheme, heh. 2014-11-15T23:05:02Z meiji11: if you want local bindings, use let. 2014-11-15T23:05:13Z meiji11: or let*, if you want to reference previous bindings in that same form. 2014-11-15T23:05:26Z tomwalker: i see 2014-11-15T23:05:34Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-15T23:05:52Z tomwalker: i know that it is probably pretty awful code :S 2014-11-15T23:06:27Z nyef: Eh, not nearly as bad as the infamous "dfs return path" on lisppaste. 2014-11-15T23:06:57Z sol__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-11-15T23:07:08Z tomwalker: give me a chance, i might surprise you guys in the future with more guff code!! 2014-11-15T23:07:26Z meiji11: no, it's fine. you're learning. you haven't absorbed the idiom yet. 2014-11-15T23:07:28Z EvW1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-15T23:09:19Z tomwalker: do you think i should change the DFS part to a stack instead of recursion? just push on any connections, pop off visited nodes? 2014-11-15T23:09:26Z tomwalker: would that be more memory efficient? 2014-11-15T23:10:11Z meiji11: you shouldn't exhaust the stack if you implement it iteratively, yes. 2014-11-15T23:11:28Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-11-15T23:12:00Z nyef: Hrm. 850,000 nodes, about how many stack frames would you be looking at with your DFS bit? 2014-11-15T23:12:04Z pt1_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-15T23:12:09Z sol__ joined #lisp 2014-11-15T23:12:44Z nyef: (Figuring that a stack runs about a megabyte or so, and that the minimum frame size might be as large as 32 bytes...) 2014-11-15T23:13:29Z jayne_ is now known as jayne 2014-11-15T23:13:44Z tomwalker: Huge I guess 2014-11-15T23:14:18Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-11-15T23:15:15Z tomwalker: how would I estimate it? 2014-11-15T23:16:30Z nyef: Not being a graph theorist, or even having looked seriously at your code, I haven't the foggiest. 2014-11-15T23:16:48Z tomwalker: would it be proportional to nodes * edges? 2014-11-15T23:17:03Z simon` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-15T23:17:10Z nyef: That's even scarier than it being proportional merely to nodes. 2014-11-15T23:17:29Z tomwalker: I am still a complete beginner so this is still pretty foreign to me 2014-11-15T23:19:00Z nyef: Well, this is an algorithms question, not a lisp question, so you might be able to work it out based on your existing experience. 2014-11-15T23:19:28Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-11-15T23:19:40Z nyef: That said, if you're blowing your stack, I'd try pushing things to the heap instead... And hope that the heap doesn't blow up as well. 2014-11-15T23:21:27Z tomwalker: well aparently it should be a linear algorithm 2014-11-15T23:21:38Z tomwalker: nodes + edges 2014-11-15T23:21:55Z tomwalker: but my poor implementation does not allow that!!! 2014-11-15T23:22:47Z Petit_Dejeuner__ joined #lisp 2014-11-15T23:23:10Z tomwalker: but thank you, I appreciate you taking the time to help me 2014-11-15T23:24:07Z tomwalker: hopefully I will get to the point where I can help others too! 2014-11-15T23:24:07Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-15T23:25:10Z nyef: Hrm. Actually, I'd recommend spending a little bit of time, maybe as much as a few hours, either reading a good introductory lisp book such as Practical Common Lisp (which should be available online) or the source code to a few lisp programs or libraries, preferably BOTH. That should give you a much better feel for the idiom, at least. 2014-11-15T23:25:25Z Petit_Dejeuner_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-15T23:25:38Z tomwalker: I read through "land of lisp" 2014-11-15T23:25:56Z tomwalker: but I will read Practical Common Lisp as well 2014-11-15T23:26:05Z nyef: (I still remember learning C, from text-mode Linux with something like 18 or so virtual consoles open to various example programs, manual pages, editor buffers, and so on...) 2014-11-15T23:26:30Z tomwalker: Do you recommend any particular libraries? 2014-11-15T23:27:12Z nyef: (Working from three or four programs that did more or less what I wanted to do, synthesizing my own version from what I thought was the better ideas of all of them, all while struggling to figure out what on earth I was doing...) 2014-11-15T23:28:20Z tomwalker: sounds like a great way to learn! 2014-11-15T23:28:30Z nyef: I can't really recommend particular libraries, because the ones that I'm familiar with the internals are the ones which aren't that great in terms of internals (because I tend to dig into them when they fail to work for me for one reason or another). 2014-11-15T23:28:48Z nyef: Yeah, nothing quite like the deep end for learning quickly. (-: 2014-11-15T23:28:49Z tomwalker: I am working through a lecture course, trying to solve all the problems with common lisp 2014-11-15T23:29:40Z tomwalker: For that code I posted, I used a package called alexandria 2014-11-15T23:30:04Z nyef: Ah, yes. Named after somebody's daughter, IIRC. 2014-11-15T23:30:09Z tomwalker: I read through a little of that, seems pretty concise 2014-11-15T23:31:12Z nyef: "Concise is nice, but... but... damn, I can't think of anything." 2014-11-15T23:33:13Z drmeister: A (BLOCK xxx ...) where the body doesn't contain a "RETURN-FROM XXX" is redundant - correct? I'm seeing a lot of (EXT:LAMBDA-BLOCK xxx (...) ...body...) where the body doesn't contain a return-from xxx. I'm wondering if I can convert them into the simpler (LAMBDA (...) ...body...) 2014-11-15T23:33:20Z zlrth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-15T23:33:21Z tomwalker: :D 2014-11-15T23:34:02Z nyef: drmeister: Right, it's approximately equivalent to a PROGN. 2014-11-15T23:34:41Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-15T23:34:44Z nyef: On the other hand, debugging support might support indicating the block name in a backtrace, or allow RETURN-FROM from within the debugger. 2014-11-15T23:37:01Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2014-11-15T23:38:29Z mvilleneuve quit (Client Quit) 2014-11-15T23:43:06Z Grue` joined #lisp 2014-11-15T23:46:00Z ivan4th joined #lisp 2014-11-15T23:46:11Z Odin- joined #lisp 2014-11-15T23:50:06Z cy quit (Quit: :q!) 2014-11-15T23:53:03Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2014-11-15T23:53:44Z ehaliewicz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-15T23:59:37Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2014-11-16T00:02:17Z killmaster quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-16T00:04:56Z prxq_ joined #lisp 2014-11-16T00:05:00Z killmaster joined #lisp 2014-11-16T00:06:07Z nyef: "terseness: the vice of being concise"? 2014-11-16T00:08:13Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-16T00:10:07Z prxq_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-16T00:18:42Z Petit_Dejeuner__ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-16T00:19:04Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-11-16T00:19:37Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-11-16T00:20:02Z paul0```` joined #lisp 2014-11-16T00:23:46Z paul0``` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-16T00:24:29Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-16T00:26:36Z ehu_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-16T00:27:22Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2014-11-16T00:28:45Z Petit_Dejeuner__ joined #lisp 2014-11-16T00:29:43Z Petit_Dejeuner_ joined #lisp 2014-11-16T00:31:47Z ivan4th` joined #lisp 2014-11-16T00:33:15Z izirku quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-16T00:33:16Z Petit_Dejeuner__ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-11-16T00:33:52Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2014-11-16T00:35:59Z ivan4th quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-16T00:37:44Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-16T00:41:52Z xrash quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-16T00:48:09Z froggey_ is now known as froggey 2014-11-16T00:49:37Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-16T00:49:47Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-11-16T00:54:11Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-16T00:58:58Z vinleod quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-11-16T01:09:58Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-11-16T01:12:35Z ehaliewicz joined #lisp 2014-11-16T01:16:41Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-11-16T01:34:10Z izirku joined #lisp 2014-11-16T01:35:33Z madmalik quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-11-16T01:38:56Z ofosos joined #lisp 2014-11-16T01:41:36Z izirku quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-16T01:43:19Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-11-16T01:46:43Z drmeister: When you consider docstrings and declarations it's kind of complicated to convert EXT:LAMBDA-BLOCK into a LAMBDA&BLOCK (sigh). Almost done. 2014-11-16T01:47:05Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-11-16T01:48:17Z nyef: Kindof makes me glad to be struggling with assembly-routines instead. 2014-11-16T01:49:05Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-11-16T01:55:23Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2014-11-16T01:55:59Z oleo is now known as Guest78667 2014-11-16T01:57:31Z Guest78667 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-16T01:57:53Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-11-16T02:01:23Z ivan4th`` joined #lisp 2014-11-16T02:01:23Z ivan4th` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-16T02:15:40Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-11-16T02:24:39Z pjb: Bike: yes, that would include extended function names (this is this ext:lambda-block case), and this is the problem for code walkers. Therefore it should be forbidden (use an implementation specific special operator instead). 2014-11-16T02:24:41Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-11-16T02:30:31Z ofosos quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-11-16T02:34:53Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-16T02:34:53Z LiamH quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-11-16T02:34:58Z pjb: drmeister: be careful. when wrapping the body of a lambda expression into a block, you have to move out all the declarations and docstring (not only the docstring, declarations can occur before and after the docstring). lambda-block is probably used by the implementation to implement DEFUN (and defmacro and defmethod) which imply a block named after the function. 2014-11-16T02:35:15Z pjb: (so my macro was wrong above, sorry). 2014-11-16T02:38:11Z izirku joined #lisp 2014-11-16T02:41:48Z kuimacro2 quit (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de) 2014-11-16T02:42:15Z ivan4th`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-16T02:42:33Z ivan4th`` joined #lisp 2014-11-16T02:42:34Z izirku quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-11-16T02:42:55Z ivan4th`` left #lisp 2014-11-16T02:43:03Z ivan4th`` joined #lisp 2014-11-16T02:43:08Z ivan4th`` left #lisp 2014-11-16T02:57:53Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-11-16T03:00:30Z vap1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-16T03:03:40Z drmeister: pjb: I hear you - I'm treading carefully - but I'm afraid that I'm changing too many things at once. 2014-11-16T03:05:50Z phadthai quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-11-16T03:12:55Z phadthai joined #lisp 2014-11-16T03:18:17Z beach joined #lisp 2014-11-16T03:18:33Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2014-11-16T03:18:48Z ehaliewicz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-16T03:25:25Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-11-16T03:25:29Z nyef: Hello beach. 2014-11-16T03:26:51Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-16T03:28:07Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-11-16T03:30:27Z drewc quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-11-16T03:33:33Z drmeister: Hello beach. 2014-11-16T03:33:43Z nyef: Okay, I'm in the middle of an odd assembler interface, where I can't define labels anywhere other than instruction boundaries, and there's no mechanism defined to export arbitrary labels. 2014-11-16T03:34:06Z nyef: And I need to export a label that isn't on an instruction boundary, it's displaced by some amount that I can calculate. 2014-11-16T03:34:36Z nyef: How should I go about doing this? 2014-11-16T03:35:31Z beach: It's an existing assembler? 2014-11-16T03:35:36Z nyef: Yeah. 2014-11-16T03:35:52Z beach: Which one? 2014-11-16T03:35:54Z nyef: SBCL. 2014-11-16T03:36:04Z beach: I see. 2014-11-16T03:36:09Z nyef: Specifically, I'm trying to define some more complex assembly-routines. 2014-11-16T03:37:52Z nyef: I'm almost thinking that something similar to a LET binding spec makes sense, where the only acceptable values are a constant displacement to another label, and a name without a binding means "export this label verbatim".