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Kabaka stokachu keen____ Gooder` yacks 2014-08-01T00:08:20Z names: kanru tesuji CrazyEddy kyl spockokt hellome nightshade427 sbryant joneshf-laptop cpt_nemo atgreen brown` sykopomp xristos Stablo smithzv yrdz ndp billstclair Acherontius TDog c74d Quasus rotty blakbunnie27 hugod dRbiG _5kg vhost- stopbit clop dan64 jayne oconnore ChibaPet tessier_ j_king_ misv_ sigjuice finnrobi eak_ Corey rk[imposter] troydm pillton eazar001 Nshag rvchangue jlarocco Bike killmaster alchemis7 bcoburn effy yeltzooo GGMethos easye 2014-08-01T00:08:20Z names: wormphlegm arrdem diginet luis estebian jasom fikusz nydel mr-foobar kirin` cmatei Okasu nihilatus victor_lowther superjudge__ _tca gluegadget endou__ matko specbot MightyJoe ahungry_ seabot Jubb teiresias phadthai cosmicexplorer Khisanth pchrist matija girrig brandonz asedeno cibs rick-monster djinni` justinmcp lagging_troll z0d Tordek _8hzp pavlicek Tuxedo beppu loke nisstyre drdo jdz sellout zbigniew_ FracV Neptu_ ft milosn_ DGASAU acieroid 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jsnell anunnaki farhaven_ lduros` minion schoppenhauer david12345678987 yrk urandom_1 l3thal manuel_ theos Amaan AntiSpamMeta stepnem alexherbo2 WeirdEnthusiast draculus adlai freiksenet Intensity nicdev Tristam frkout mal_ Kabaka stokachu keen____ Gooder` 2014-08-01T00:13:41Z names: yacks kanru tesuji CrazyEddy kyl spockokt hellome nightshade427 sbryant joneshf-laptop cpt_nemo atgreen brown` sykopomp xristos Stablo smithzv yrdz ndp billstclair Acherontius TDog c74d Quasus rotty blakbunnie27 hugod dRbiG _5kg vhost- stopbit clop dan64 jayne oconnore ChibaPet tessier_ j_king_ misv_ sigjuice finnrobi eak_ Corey rk[imposter] troydm pillton eazar001 Nshag rvchangue jlarocco Bike killmaster alchemis7 bcoburn effy yeltzooo GGMethos easye 2014-08-01T00:13:41Z names: wormphlegm arrdem diginet luis estebian jasom fikusz nydel mr-foobar kirin` cmatei Okasu nihilatus victor_lowther superjudge__ _tca gluegadget endou__ matko specbot MightyJoe ahungry_ seabot Jubb teiresias phadthai cosmicexplorer Khisanth pchrist matija girrig brandonz asedeno cibs rick-monster djinni` justinmcp lagging_troll z0d Tordek _8hzp pavlicek Tuxedo beppu loke nisstyre drdo jdz sellout zbigniew_ FracV Neptu_ ft milosn_ DGASAU acieroid 2014-08-01T00:13:41Z names: p_l|backup ineiros aksatac__ eagleflo_ brucem fe[nl]ix no0y` cmbntr_ hypno__ eigenlicht joast |3b| gko kushal zymurgy ThePhoeron mtd mood pjb funnel K1rk faheem_ kutsuya abbe clog mdallastella eMBee jdoles phf` cods pok__ whartung galdor necronian manfoo7 lemoinem zxq9 gz_ vsync rtoym foom ramus emma ianmcorvidae Natch dlowe s_e BlastHardcheese tali713 eee-blt Praise redline6561 The_third_man arbscht Reihar dim johs otwieracz antoszka schjetne nightfly 2014-08-01T00:13:41Z names: yroeht enn Soft Blkt srcerer ``Erik PuercoPop anunnaki_ Subfusc Posterdati newcup cyphase tvaalen aoh ferada copec lupine mathrick benny replcated wchun gregburd guaqua oGMo Adeon cross daimrod dfox __main__ Krystof devn felideon bobbysmith007 honkfestival sjl Mandus njsg nimiux tbarletz zz_karupa felipe p_l SHODAN yauz quasisane jchochl__ madnificent sshirokov _death samebchase Ober kbtr_ Fade tkd eli setheus Xach ck_ theBlackDragon inklesspen shwouchk 2014-08-01T00:13:41Z names: Zhivago gabot ecraven renard_ ircbrowse rvirding splittist H4ns Anarch Neet peccu Borbus joshe mikaelj ozzloy ered d4gg4d___ ggherdov marsbot joga AeroNotix htmzr aerique_ sklr nitro_idiot qbit gensym Colleen__ yano tomaw tkd_ 2014-08-01T00:19:03Z ccl-logbot joined #lisp 2014-08-01T00:19:03Z 2014-08-01T00:19:03Z names: ccl-logbot yuqian Jesin kcj whmark tkhoa2711 jaimef Fare DrCode vlnx tadni stardiviner drmeister AdmiralBumbleBee sz0 seangrov` MoALTz_ didi nell Hydan Sgeo dmiles_afk DKordic EvW codeburg TheMoonMaster bgs100 zacharias araujo nand1 boogie Patzy decent GuilOooo froggey Denommus Rptx nipra nug700 knob Vivitron` banjara sake nowhereman xenophon zygentoma xyh spacebat bjorkintosh optikalmouse slyrus zwer shridhar leo2007 Karl_Dscc varjag Oddity housel 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easye wormphlegm arrdem diginet luis estebian jasom fikusz nydel mr-foobar kirin` cmatei Okasu nihilatus victor_lowther superjudge__ _tca gluegadget endou__ matko specbot MightyJoe ahungry_ seabot Jubb teiresias phadthai cosmicexplorer Khisanth pchrist matija girrig brandonz asedeno cibs rick-monster djinni` justinmcp lagging_troll z0d Tordek _8hzp pavlicek Tuxedo beppu loke nisstyre drdo jdz sellout zbigniew_ FracV Neptu_ ft milosn_ DGASAU acieroid 2014-08-01T00:19:03Z names: p_l|backup ineiros aksatac__ eagleflo_ brucem fe[nl]ix no0y` cmbntr_ hypno__ eigenlicht joast |3b| gko kushal zymurgy ThePhoeron mtd mood pjb funnel K1rk faheem_ kutsuya abbe clog mdallastella eMBee jdoles phf` cods pok__ whartung galdor necronian manfoo7 lemoinem zxq9 gz_ vsync rtoym foom ramus emma ianmcorvidae Natch dlowe s_e BlastHardcheese tali713 eee-blt Praise redline6561 The_third_man arbscht Reihar dim johs otwieracz antoszka schjetne nightfly 2014-08-01T00:19:03Z names: yroeht enn Soft Blkt srcerer ``Erik PuercoPop anunnaki_ Subfusc Posterdati newcup cyphase tvaalen aoh ferada copec lupine mathrick benny replcated wchun gregburd guaqua oGMo Adeon cross daimrod dfox __main__ Krystof devn felideon bobbysmith007 honkfestival sjl Mandus njsg nimiux tbarletz zz_karupa felipe p_l SHODAN yauz quasisane jchochl__ madnificent sshirokov _death samebchase Ober kbtr_ Fade tkd eli setheus Xach ck_ theBlackDragon inklesspen shwouchk 2014-08-01T00:19:03Z names: Zhivago gabot ecraven renard_ ircbrowse rvirding splittist H4ns Anarch Neet peccu Borbus joshe mikaelj ozzloy ered d4gg4d___ ggherdov marsbot tkd_ tomaw yano Colleen__ gensym qbit nitro_idiot sklr aerique_ htmzr AeroNotix joga 2014-08-01T00:19:08Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-01T00:19:52Z blahzik joined #lisp 2014-08-01T00:20:07Z didi quit (Quit: you can't /fire me, I /quit) 2014-08-01T00:23:36Z echo-area joined #lisp 2014-08-01T00:27:36Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-08-01T00:28:04Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 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I looked in 2.3.5 but I couldn't find anything. 2014-08-01T00:46:14Z jdoolin joined #lisp 2014-08-01T00:49:47Z jaimef joined #lisp 2014-08-01T00:50:53Z Fare joined #lisp 2014-08-01T00:54:15Z byte48 joined #lisp 2014-08-01T00:54:22Z harupiyo joined #lisp 2014-08-01T00:54:46Z Sauvin joined #lisp 2014-08-01T00:56:39Z blahzik quit (Quit: blahzik) 2014-08-01T00:58:30Z Gooder` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T00:58:57Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T00:59:54Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2014-08-01T01:02:11Z yuqianCN joined #lisp 2014-08-01T01:03:58Z yuqian quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-01T01:06:22Z billstclair quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-01T01:06:48Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-01T01:09:11Z ivan\ quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-01T01:11:02Z stanislav joined #lisp 2014-08-01T01:13:02Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2014-08-01T01:13:33Z Quasus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T01:18:08Z pjb: nightshade427: handler-case doesn't have the handlers in scope of the handler bodies! handler-bind neither. (ignore-errors (handler-case (error "hi") (error () (error 'error-a)))) --> nil, # 2014-08-01T01:18:09Z Gooder joined #lisp 2014-08-01T01:20:49Z harupiyo_ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T01:22:03Z harupiyo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T01:24:45Z didi joined #lisp 2014-08-01T01:25:14Z drmeister: I figured out how ECL bootstraps and compiles itself. It uses (DEFSTRUCT (XXX (:type vector)) ... ) to define structures while bootstrapping that don't use DEFCLASS. 2014-08-01T01:25:42Z drmeister: "to define structures that don't rely on DEFCLASS while bootstrapping" - perhaps that makes more sense. 2014-08-01T01:28:29Z drmeister: I'm modifying my bootstrapping procedure to make it more congruent with ECLs approach. The big difference is that ECL has a bytecode compiler built into the C source that is used to bootstrap a compiler that generates C code. I have a slow S-expression interpreter that I use to bootstrap a compiler that generates native code (via LLVM). Mine starts out really, really slow but it gets much faster as it compil 2014-08-01T01:28:29Z drmeister: es itself. 2014-08-01T01:30:13Z Zhivago: Why optimize it? You can dump the final compilation and re-use, right? 2014-08-01T01:31:26Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2014-08-01T01:32:23Z MrWoohoo quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-01T01:37:32Z Gooder quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-01T01:38:38Z sz0 quit (Quit: My computer has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-08-01T01:38:52Z sz0 joined #lisp 2014-08-01T01:39:55Z drmeister: Zhivago: I can't do that if I want to maintain interoperability with C++. Or rather if I want to dump a running image I would have to figure out how to get the OS to dump the running process and restart it. There may be a way to do it on Linux but I haven't seen a way to do it with OS X. 2014-08-01T01:41:46Z dseagrav quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-01T01:42:28Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T01:43:32Z seangrov` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T01:44:41Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-08-01T01:45:22Z drmeister: It would take a while to explain why but I've thought about it a lot and come to that conclusion. I'd love to be wrong because I'd love to be able to dump a running image. 2014-08-01T01:45:58Z manuel_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-01T01:45:58Z manuel__ is now known as manuel_ 2014-08-01T01:53:13Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-01T01:55:07Z MoALTz__ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T01:55:17Z Fare: drmeister: syssigreturn can restore your process state 2014-08-01T01:55:22Z knob9876 joined #lisp 2014-08-01T01:55:48Z gingerale- joined #lisp 2014-08-01T01:56:01Z nug700_ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T01:57:02Z drmeister: Fare: What is that? I googled it - I find sigreturn http://www.tutorialspoint.com/unix_system_calls/sigreturn.htm 2014-08-01T01:57:02Z varjag quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-08-01T01:57:10Z Vivitron joined #lisp 2014-08-01T01:57:55Z Bike_ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T01:58:01Z hyoyoung_ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T01:58:18Z Fare: not for your kind of dump & restore 2014-08-01T01:59:12Z drmeister: Oh crap - I spent the last hour trying to track down a bug which turned out to be a single quote ' inserted into a list of the Common Lisp code. That's one big problem I have with Emacs - it is way too easy to stick errant characters into source files. 2014-08-01T01:59:18Z MoALTz_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-01T01:59:19Z hyoyoung quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T01:59:19Z yrdz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T01:59:19Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T01:59:19Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T01:59:19Z knob quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T01:59:23Z Jessin joined #lisp 2014-08-01T01:59:30Z ahungry joined #lisp 2014-08-01T01:59:40Z yrdz joined #lisp 2014-08-01T01:59:53Z Fare: more like /proc/self/smaps for you, and whatever osx equivalent 2014-08-01T02:01:19Z Fare: drmeister: do you need the bootstrap compiler everytime? Or can you save the output into linkable objects? 2014-08-01T02:01:52Z dmiles joined #lisp 2014-08-01T02:01:56Z gingerale quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-01T02:01:56Z Vivitron` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T02:01:56Z nug700 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T02:01:56Z ahungry_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T02:01:57Z dmiles_afk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-01T02:01:57Z gingerale- is now known as gingerale 2014-08-01T02:02:11Z drmeister: I bootstrap the compiler every time I load the system. Loading the Common Lisp system replays the entire load process. 2014-08-01T02:02:13Z banjara quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-01T02:02:20Z sohail joined #lisp 2014-08-01T02:02:20Z sohail quit (Changing host) 2014-08-01T02:02:20Z sohail joined #lisp 2014-08-01T02:03:06Z sohail quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-08-01T02:03:30Z sohail joined #lisp 2014-08-01T02:03:57Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T02:04:49Z drmeister: I'm working on speeding everything up to address this. Three weeks ago it took 7 seconds to boot to the REPL. I've since changed the calling convention to use varargs on the stack rather than stuffing activation frames on the heap. Everything is running significantly faster. But I haven't gotten the entire bootstrapping compilation working yet. 2014-08-01T02:04:59Z manfoo7` joined #lisp 2014-08-01T02:05:04Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-08-01T02:05:13Z yuqian joined #lisp 2014-08-01T02:06:37Z bsima joined #lisp 2014-08-01T02:08:04Z drmeister: Changing the calling convention requires changes in the lambda list processing, environments, activation frames, top-level frames, debugging code - it's like swimming through molasses. 2014-08-01T02:09:06Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T02:09:08Z drmeister: But it's faster now and debuggability is improved. My backtraces have become a lot more informative. 2014-08-01T02:09:09Z yuqianCN quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-01T02:09:32Z manfoo7 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-01T02:09:44Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-08-01T02:10:29Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/f690517c4989a482b591 interleaved C++ and Common Lisp frames 2014-08-01T02:11:11Z drmeister: The B/I/C column stands for "Builtin"/"Interpreted"/"Compiled" 2014-08-01T02:11:30Z blahzik joined #lisp 2014-08-01T02:11:32Z the8thbit joined #lisp 2014-08-01T02:11:46Z Bike_ is now known as Bike 2014-08-01T02:11:56Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0-rc1) 2014-08-01T02:12:36Z Zhivago: You can't capture the compiled code into .so files or something? 2014-08-01T02:15:51Z drmeister: Oh - I do that. 2014-08-01T02:16:06Z pjb: drmeister: you can do something like(font-lock-add-keywords nil '(("'" (0 font-lock-comment-face)))); or even with a flashier face. 2014-08-01T02:16:25Z Zhivago: So you should be able to skip the rebuild by reusing those? 2014-08-01T02:17:12Z xyh left #lisp 2014-08-01T02:18:05Z Gooder joined #lisp 2014-08-01T02:18:32Z pjb: perhaps (font-lock-add-keywords 'lisp-mode '(("'" (0 font-lock-comment-face)))) in ~/.emacs 2014-08-01T02:19:33Z brucem: drmeister: nice ... do you plan on requesting a DWARF language ID? (although the number of implementations of CL might make that a more difficult sell since each would generate different DWARF debug info) or are you happy just using an ID in the user space? 2014-08-01T02:19:52Z brucem: drmeister: and how do you determine the language of the frame in LLDB? 2014-08-01T02:20:25Z drmeister: Zhivago: I'm not being completely clear. I have about 70 Common Lisp source files - these are compiled to native code and put into a .so(linux)/.bundle(OS X) file. This file is loaded at start up and contains a "main" function that calls a function for every toplevel form in the 70 source files. It replays the definition of every function, every dynamic variable etc at startup. This is what takes about 7 sec 2014-08-01T02:20:25Z drmeister: onds. 2014-08-01T02:21:07Z drmeister: brucem: lldb doesn't work at all with my DWARF debugging info - gdb does though. 2014-08-01T02:21:14Z mtd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-01T02:21:30Z boogie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T02:21:31Z drmeister: lldb has been a pain-in-the-*ss for me. 2014-08-01T02:21:57Z boogie joined #lisp 2014-08-01T02:21:58Z brucem: drmeister: I've been getting pretty used to it and hacking on it some. 2014-08-01T02:22:37Z urandom_1 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-08-01T02:22:59Z drmeister: How is it working with Dylan? I read the stuff you wrote about adding python scripts to improve debugging. Does LLDB use Dylan DWARF info? 2014-08-01T02:23:18Z brucem: drmeister: I'm using it with our C backend, so it is C's DWARF info being used. 2014-08-01T02:24:06Z drmeister: With GDB 7.7 when I enter Common Lisp frames I see the Common Lisp source code - it's great. In LLDB all I see is x86 code. 2014-08-01T02:24:55Z brucem: drmeister: does GDB pick up your frame locals correctly as well? 2014-08-01T02:26:32Z boogie quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-01T02:27:00Z drmeister: No, I don't generate any DWARF info for locals - I haven't put the time into it yet. Also, I don't have any stack frame locals, they are all in frames on the heap (that makes closures easy). I don't do any escape analysis yet to figure out what can go on the stack and what can go on the heap. 2014-08-01T02:29:27Z drmeister: Currently I insert code into the functions that attach debugging information (symbol names) to the activation frames on the heap. Within my debugger I can examine Common Lisp environments. Within lldb I can examine C++ variables (but lldb is broken because local variables become inaccessible about 50% of the time for unknown reasons - I have a bug report in at Apple about this). 2014-08-01T02:30:20Z drmeister: Within GDB I can see CL source code in CL frames but looking at C++ variables is completely broken because I'm running on an old linux with a new version of GDB and it crashes every time I try to print a variable. 2014-08-01T02:30:33Z drmeister: printf statements - those never fail me. 2014-08-01T02:30:37Z brucem: drmeister: yeah, debugging sucks. 2014-08-01T02:31:28Z drmeister: It's freakin' 2014! Why do debuggers suck so badly? 2014-08-01T02:33:37Z brucem: drmeister: off topic for here, I guess ... but a lot of things conspire to make it hard. DWARF is pretty complex with multiple interpretations. Different compilers emit different things. Debuggers aren't handling that well. Multiple files -> multiple definitions, sometimes LLDB finds the wrong one (like a forward decl rather than the actual). Debugging vs optimization leads to a lot of issues. Debug info is huge, so they try to slim it down, 2014-08-01T02:33:38Z brucem: leading to other issues. 2014-08-01T02:33:44Z brucem: drmeister: and that's just a start ... :( 2014-08-01T02:34:17Z drmeister: I put a lot of work into my CL 'debuggability'. My reader puts source information for every list into a hash table and my compiler extracts that information and inserts it into the generated code as well as generating DWARF. Someday a debugger will be written that will use it. 2014-08-01T02:35:06Z drmeister: grumble 2014-08-01T02:35:24Z blahzik quit (Quit: blahzik) 2014-08-01T02:35:53Z brucem: drmeister: even worse if you're dealing with Windows. :) (I've been asked to write about that ...) 2014-08-01T02:36:02Z drmeister: Here's an example that happened right now: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/8d3353e0312a5d6f973f 2014-08-01T02:36:41Z drmeister: arg0 should clearly be in scope - but do you think I can access it? Nooooo. 2014-08-01T02:37:26Z brucem: drmeister: I think that's improved on current LLDB. (or I changed something that makes it happen less often for me) 2014-08-01T02:37:36Z drmeister: You said you had a prerelease of the new lldb? 2014-08-01T02:37:47Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2014-08-01T02:37:53Z brucem: drmeister: just build it from source :) 2014-08-01T02:42:02Z estebian quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-01T02:43:50Z vsync quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-01T02:44:02Z estebian joined #lisp 2014-08-01T02:47:14Z no0y` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T02:48:10Z no0y joined #lisp 2014-08-01T02:49:00Z jleija joined #lisp 2014-08-01T02:50:00Z tertl3-laptop joined #lisp 2014-08-01T02:53:38Z zRecursive: Can (sqrt 2) return negative value ? 2014-08-01T02:54:37Z jchochli quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T02:58:22Z boogie joined #lisp 2014-08-01T02:59:02Z ivan\ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T02:59:03Z harish_ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T02:59:42Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2014-08-01T02:59:53Z jasom quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T03:00:03Z jasom joined #lisp 2014-08-01T03:00:17Z Subfusc quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T03:00:22Z GuilOooo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T03:00:23Z sfa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T03:00:37Z GuilOooo joined #lisp 2014-08-01T03:00:42Z the8thbit quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T03:01:06Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T03:01:37Z sfa joined #lisp 2014-08-01T03:02:30Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-08-01T03:02:39Z Subfusc joined #lisp 2014-08-01T03:03:49Z the8thbit joined #lisp 2014-08-01T03:09:39Z Bike: no. 2014-08-01T03:15:59Z zRecursive: Bike: seems no language can do such a thing 2014-08-01T03:16:32Z Bike: common lisp is more clear about its mathematical definitions than a lot of systems. it uses branch cuts from APL. 2014-08-01T03:16:47Z tertl3-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-01T03:18:41Z zRecursive: but sqrt(2) = (+/-)1.414... , right ? 2014-08-01T03:19:16Z Bike: Yes. But the issues are complex. Look up "branch cut". 2014-08-01T03:19:32Z zRecursive: yeah 2014-08-01T03:20:43Z nell joined #lisp 2014-08-01T03:21:08Z Fare quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T03:21:30Z Zhivago: Prolog could, if it wanted to. 2014-08-01T03:22:27Z zRecursive: "If it wanted to" means ? 2014-08-01T03:22:48Z Bike: that it doesn't give you infinitely many values any time you take a logarithm, probably 2014-08-01T03:24:37Z bsima quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-01T03:24:50Z zRecursive: sqrt(2,X). => X = 1.4142135623730951. 2014-08-01T03:25:01Z Zhivago: Not that there would be anything wrong with if it did. 2014-08-01T03:25:17Z Zhivago: Yeah, the problem is that prologs aren't generally very arithmetically oriented. 2014-08-01T03:25:59Z Zhivago: But the point is that providing multiple solutions isn't a big deal for a language. 2014-08-01T03:28:06Z Zhivago: There's a secret language that I quite like where all values can have multiple values. 2014-08-01T03:28:34Z Zhivago: i.e., all values are effectively tuples of 0 or more items. 2014-08-01T03:34:47Z blahzik joined #lisp 2014-08-01T03:36:25Z Gooder quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T03:36:40Z Gooder joined #lisp 2014-08-01T03:40:14Z tadni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T03:40:51Z ggole joined #lisp 2014-08-01T03:44:29Z pjb: principal adj. (of a value returned by a Common Lisp function that implements a mathematically irrational or transcendental function defined in the complex domain) of possibly many (sometimes an infinite number of) correct values for the mathematical function, being the particular value which the corresponding Common Lisp function has been defined to return. 2014-08-01T03:44:29Z pjb: 2014-08-01T03:47:38Z ivan\ quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-01T03:47:38Z blahzik quit (*.net *.split) 2014-08-01T03:47:45Z pjb: I'm not sure clhs sqrt defines what's its principal value. 2014-08-01T03:48:03Z Bike: it defines it in terms of exp of log, so it's presumably the one following from log's 2014-08-01T03:48:20Z pjb: For the complex case, assumedly. 2014-08-01T03:48:20Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-08-01T03:48:41Z pjb: I guess the real case has to be consistent with that though. 2014-08-01T03:48:49Z Bike: yeah. 2014-08-01T03:48:52Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-08-01T03:50:53Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-08-01T03:53:23Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-08-01T03:54:35Z cibs joined #lisp 2014-08-01T03:54:48Z tadni joined #lisp 2014-08-01T03:55:33Z harupiyo_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T03:57:59Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-08-01T04:00:52Z harupiyo joined #lisp 2014-08-01T04:02:33Z jchochli quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T04:02:42Z david12345678987 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-01T04:03:31Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T04:05:35Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-08-01T04:05:53Z jleija quit (Quit: good night everyone) 2014-08-01T04:06:04Z jaimef quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-01T04:06:48Z jaimef joined #lisp 2014-08-01T04:12:07Z erikc joined #lisp 2014-08-01T04:13:11Z tadni quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-01T04:34:58Z mtd joined #lisp 2014-08-01T04:37:18Z jdoolin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-01T04:37:32Z Rptx quit (Quit: gonna sleep!) 2014-08-01T04:39:13Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-08-01T04:39:34Z mtd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-01T04:41:52Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T04:43:27Z quazimodo quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-01T04:43:46Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-08-01T04:46:02Z bjorkintosh quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T04:47:30Z JuanDaugherty: there's no more flex/bison compatible pkg than cl-yacc is there? 2014-08-01T04:54:57Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2014-08-01T04:57:57Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-01T04:58:08Z didi quit (Quit: you can't /fire me, I /quit) 2014-08-01T04:59:10Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-08-01T05:00:37Z bjorkintosh quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T05:02:43Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T05:02:51Z ivan\ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-08-01T05:02:52Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-01T05:03:14Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T05:05:24Z foreignFunction joined #lisp 2014-08-01T05:05:52Z nipra quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-01T05:06:19Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2014-08-01T05:08:41Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0-rc1) 2014-08-01T05:11:41Z chu joined #lisp 2014-08-01T05:13:11Z bjorkintosh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-01T05:13:14Z mathrick_ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T05:13:56Z whmark quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T05:14:43Z zwer_b joined #lisp 2014-08-01T05:15:51Z zwer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-01T05:17:02Z mathrick is now known as awaythrick 2014-08-01T05:17:39Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-08-01T05:19:30Z mathrick_ is now known as mathrick 2014-08-01T05:23:45Z foreignFunction quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-01T05:28:45Z malbertife joined #lisp 2014-08-01T05:34:34Z drmeister: I've asked this before but it's come up again as I retool my calling convention - do generic functions/methods have closed over environments? 2014-08-01T05:37:48Z ggole: They aren't any different from regular functions in that regard. 2014-08-01T05:37:50Z Zhivago: A method is not a function, so I do not believe so. 2014-08-01T05:38:56Z Zhivago: But I might be confusing CLOS with the more generalized MOP. 2014-08-01T05:39:04Z beach joined #lisp 2014-08-01T05:39:15Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2014-08-01T05:39:23Z JuanDaugherty: drmeister, did you mean "closure"? 2014-08-01T05:39:34Z JuanDaugherty: yello beach 2014-08-01T05:39:43Z Zhivago: In that context at least, a method is a code fragment that is assembled in the context of a dispatch to produce a function, which make have lexical closure (e.g., call-next-method). 2014-08-01T05:40:19Z beach: drmeister: Methods are defined in the lexical environment where the definition happens, so yes, methods can have closed-over environments. 2014-08-01T05:40:46Z beach: drmeister: (let ((x 10)) (defmethod bla (y) (+ y (incf x)))) 2014-08-01T05:41:13Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-01T05:42:50Z drmeister: beach: Ok, I see that - the methods can have closed over environments. But it doesn't make sense for the generic function to have any - or does it - (let ((w 10)) (defgeneric foo (x y &optional (z w)))) I only ever use the required arguments of generic functions. Investigating... 2014-08-01T05:43:07Z beach: drmeister: Discriminating functions of generic functions, however, are defined in the null lexical environment. (At least this is what I remember, but memory being what it is, I might be wrong.) 2014-08-01T05:43:44Z beach: drmeister: I think your analysis is correct. 2014-08-01T05:44:15Z drmeister: I ask because in my implementation of generic functions, which closely mirrors ECL's implementation - there is no place to pass the enclosed generic function to the generic function. 2014-08-01T05:45:04Z drmeister: Stupid question - what exactly is the "discriminating function"? 2014-08-01T05:45:21Z drmeister: I think it's the code that arranges the dispatch to the methods - is that it? 2014-08-01T05:45:29Z Zhivago: drmeister: A generic function has no lexical body, so I don't see how it could have a lexical closure in that regard. 2014-08-01T05:45:30Z beach: Correct. 2014-08-01T05:45:33Z Jubb quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-01T05:46:14Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-08-01T05:46:17Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2014-08-01T05:48:11Z runciter joined #lisp 2014-08-01T05:48:12Z drmeister: Zhivago: And generic function lambda lists can have optional and keyword parameters but they are not allowed to have default initial values and &aux parameters are not allowed. 2014-08-01T05:48:50Z drmeister: So, no closed over environment for generic functions - good - there was no way to pass them to the discriminating function. 2014-08-01T05:50:03Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2014-08-01T05:51:04Z jchochli quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-01T05:51:21Z malbertife_ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T05:51:24Z malbertife_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-01T05:51:28Z erikc quit (Quit: erikc) 2014-08-01T05:54:03Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-08-01T05:54:43Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-01T05:54:51Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-01T05:58:51Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-08-01T06:04:43Z sohail quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-08-01T06:04:44Z beach: I have written a description of what a "protocol" is: http://metamodular.com/protocol.pdf I would appreciate comments. 2014-08-01T06:05:53Z Zhivago: Hmm, I don't think much of the first paragraph. 2014-08-01T06:06:17Z nug700_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-01T06:06:45Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-08-01T06:06:48Z ltbarcly quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-01T06:07:15Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-08-01T06:07:31Z beach: Zhivago: Any constructive recommendations? 2014-08-01T06:08:09Z Zhivago: What I'm missing from that document is probably something explaining what the point of a protocol is. 2014-08-01T06:08:26Z Zhivago: So far it appears to be a random set of operators that accidentally happen to operate on the same kind of stuff. 2014-08-01T06:08:38Z beach: Zhivago: Good point. Thanks. 2014-08-01T06:08:39Z Zhivago: So, I'm left with a vast pit of "why do I care?" 2014-08-01T06:10:29Z sohail joined #lisp 2014-08-01T06:10:29Z sohail quit (Changing host) 2014-08-01T06:10:29Z sohail joined #lisp 2014-08-01T06:12:25Z beach: Zhivago: Thanks for you time. I will work on improving it later today. 2014-08-01T06:13:36Z pillton: beach: Why restrict it to the same type? 2014-08-01T06:13:57Z Zhivago: Good luck. :) 2014-08-01T06:14:02Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-08-01T06:14:02Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2014-08-01T06:14:02Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-08-01T06:14:03Z beach: pillton: Restrict what to the same type? 2014-08-01T06:14:10Z pillton: The first sentence. 2014-08-01T06:14:48Z beach: pillton: I want to avoid calling {cons,+} a protocol. 2014-08-01T06:15:01Z beach: I want the operations to be related by some common type. 2014-08-01T06:15:33Z pillton: Hmm. Isn't that achieved already with T? 2014-08-01T06:15:52Z beach: That's why T is explicitly excluded in enumeration 1. 2014-08-01T06:16:12Z pillton: Oh I see. My apologies. 2014-08-01T06:16:26Z beach: No worries. 2014-08-01T06:17:30Z beach: Time to get some work done. I'll read the logs if anyone has more remarks. Thanks again. 2014-08-01T06:17:38Z beach left #lisp 2014-08-01T06:18:02Z pillton: Is the 'protocol' in "meta-object protocol" the same as the protocol in your text? 2014-08-01T06:20:17Z loke: The first paragraph of that PDF is not correct, IMHO 2014-08-01T06:21:27Z kanru quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-01T06:21:33Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-01T06:21:40Z sake quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T06:22:36Z mtd joined #lisp 2014-08-01T06:22:44Z kanru joined #lisp 2014-08-01T06:22:51Z zeitue: Lisp implementation question: are all list structures in Lisp implemented in this way as this picture depicts http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cons-cells.svg#mediaviewer/File:Cons-cells.svg 2014-08-01T06:23:09Z MoALTz__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-01T06:24:14Z Zhivago: No. 2014-08-01T06:24:35Z Zhivago: cdr-coded lists are also somewhat popular. 2014-08-01T06:25:33Z Zhivago: The fundamental requirement is that they must support recursive deconstruction via cdr and car. 2014-08-01T06:25:46Z sohail quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-01T06:26:23Z ferada quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-01T06:26:31Z zeitue: Zhivago, so a cdr-coded list is one that has a car and cdr that represent the right and left branches right? 2014-08-01T06:26:56Z Zhivago: No. 2014-08-01T06:27:10Z Zhivago: It's a packed representation, like a vector. 2014-08-01T06:27:40Z Zhivago: Consider how "hello" + 1 recursively deconstructs the string "hello" to the string "ello" in C. 2014-08-01T06:29:09Z zeitue: yes so you're saying similar to an array because "hello" in C is an array of type char 2014-08-01T06:29:58Z zeitue: so this way it is more like an object containing an array rather than just a car and cdr branch pointer? 2014-08-01T06:30:33Z nug700 joined #lisp 2014-08-01T06:33:46Z zeitue: OK, thank you 2014-08-01T06:33:48Z Zhivago: It's similar to the string, which is not an array -- it is a _pattern of data_ stored in an array. 2014-08-01T06:34:18Z Zhivago: So, you can see p + 1 being like cdr, and *p being like car in that case? 2014-08-01T06:34:46Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-08-01T06:34:49Z zeitue: ah I see so what about p+2? 2014-08-01T06:35:05Z zeitue: or would there be no p+2? 2014-08-01T06:35:27Z Zhivago: p + 2 is (p + 1) + 1 ... (cdr (cdr p)) 2014-08-01T06:36:32Z zeitue: ah so the list is like a vector like you said and you can have many elements in each 2014-08-01T06:36:57Z wizzo joined #lisp 2014-08-01T06:37:21Z Zhivago: Sure, although in this model, cdr is expensive to change. 2014-08-01T06:37:33Z Zhivago: You need to build a whole new vector if you want to do that. 2014-08-01T06:37:46Z Zhivago: Still, for most lists that's fine. 2014-08-01T06:38:29Z ivan\ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T06:38:29Z mtd quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T06:38:30Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T06:38:30Z ivan\ quit (Changing host) 2014-08-01T06:38:30Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T06:38:37Z zeitue: I had done mine like this when I implemented it struct lval { int type; int count; lval** cell;}; 2014-08-01T06:39:03Z zeitue: the cell was an array of the lval for storing each atom or list 2014-08-01T06:42:21Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2014-08-01T06:44:18Z mtd joined #lisp 2014-08-01T06:53:04Z pgomes joined #lisp 2014-08-01T06:53:29Z Ragnaroek joined #lisp 2014-08-01T07:00:52Z Pawka joined #lisp 2014-08-01T07:04:21Z ggole: You can't "build a whole new vector" in many cases because that breaks sharing of mutable parts 2014-08-01T07:04:41Z ggole: It works for immutable conses, but you don't have the cdr-replacement problem there in the first place. 2014-08-01T07:07:02Z ggole: (There's also the question of how to GC them. I think that's just a matter of ironing out the details though.) 2014-08-01T07:10:19Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2014-08-01T07:10:50Z zRecursive left #lisp 2014-08-01T07:14:22Z Pawka left #lisp 2014-08-01T07:14:27Z banjara joined #lisp 2014-08-01T07:17:06Z mvilleneuve_ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T07:18:43Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-08-01T07:19:04Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-08-01T07:20:12Z pgomes quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T07:20:12Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T07:20:17Z ivan\ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T07:21:28Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T07:29:28Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T07:30:08Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-08-01T07:30:40Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-01T07:30:42Z ivan\ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T07:33:02Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T07:33:20Z banjara quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-01T07:34:43Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-08-01T07:34:49Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T07:35:09Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-08-01T07:36:13Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T07:36:32Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-08-01T07:37:52Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-08-01T07:38:12Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-08-01T07:39:27Z jchochli quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-01T07:43:09Z runciter quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-08-01T07:43:17Z Beetny joined #lisp 2014-08-01T07:46:07Z setmeaway joined #lisp 2014-08-01T07:48:37Z sohail joined #lisp 2014-08-01T07:50:03Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-08-01T07:50:31Z ee_cc joined #lisp 2014-08-01T07:51:16Z ee_cc quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-01T07:52:41Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-08-01T07:53:00Z Blaguvest joined #lisp 2014-08-01T07:53:06Z ee_cc_ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T07:53:41Z boogie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T07:54:54Z harupiyo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-01T07:56:41Z harupiyo joined #lisp 2014-08-01T07:58:09Z killmaster quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-01T07:59:09Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T07:59:37Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-08-01T07:59:43Z Cymew joined #lisp 2014-08-01T08:00:08Z killmaster joined #lisp 2014-08-01T08:00:15Z JuanDaugherty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T08:00:43Z alexey joined #lisp 2014-08-01T08:00:50Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-08-01T08:01:08Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-08-01T08:01:59Z zwer_b is now known as zwer 2014-08-01T08:03:35Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-08-01T08:04:43Z varjag joined #lisp 2014-08-01T08:04:43Z alexey1 joined #lisp 2014-08-01T08:05:04Z setmeaway quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-01T08:08:10Z alexey quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-01T08:09:35Z adlai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T08:10:04Z adlai joined #lisp 2014-08-01T08:10:15Z alexey joined #lisp 2014-08-01T08:10:51Z nostoi joined #lisp 2014-08-01T08:13:19Z alexey1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-01T08:13:54Z drmeister: Crap - varargs was a bad idea. I think my calling convention should be something like (int nargs, T* arg0, T* arg1, T* arg2, T** rest) rather than (int nargs, T* arg0, T* arg1, T* arg2, ... ) The reason is if I use varargs I can't build the call programmatically, I need a massive switch statement for every number of arguments to pass 4, 5, 6, 7, ... 64 arguments. 2014-08-01T08:14:34Z Guthur joined #lisp 2014-08-01T08:14:53Z drmeister: While Common Lisp limits the number of arguments to at least 50 if I use (apply #'list '(1 2 3 4 ... 1000) ) using varargs I have to have case in my switch statement to handle 1000 arguments. Nasty. 2014-08-01T08:15:08Z stassats: no 2014-08-01T08:15:12Z drmeister: "have to have a case in my switch" 2014-08-01T08:15:19Z drmeister: No - what? 2014-08-01T08:15:38Z stassats: no, your previous preposition was wrong 2014-08-01T08:15:51Z drmeister: What's wrong with it? 2014-08-01T08:15:51Z stassats: it limits to 50, that's it 2014-08-01T08:17:18Z drmeister: I misunderstand - call-arguments-limit "An integer not smaller than 50 and at least as great as the value of lambda-parameters limit" 2014-08-01T08:18:25Z drmeister: My issue isn't with that anyway, I'm cool with a limit on the number of CL function arguments. My problem is how to map that into C++ calls. The problem with varargs is I can read variable numbers of arguments using a loop but I can't set up a call with variable numbers of arguments using a loop. 2014-08-01T08:18:33Z mal_: ANSI C allows a call argument limit of 31 IIRC so you're hosed anyways if you cant to use portable C 2014-08-01T08:18:41Z mal_: *want 2014-08-01T08:19:04Z drmeister: I resorted to this: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/de8a56d0084556ae58fd 2014-08-01T08:19:53Z Guthur quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-08-01T08:19:59Z Guthur` joined #lisp 2014-08-01T08:20:00Z stassats: most terrible 2014-08-01T08:20:13Z drmeister: Agreed. Some choices have been painful. 2014-08-01T08:21:38Z drmeister: However, if I use (int nargs, T* a0, T* a1, T* a2, T** rest) then I can allocate rest on the stack using a variable array (not standard but supported by Clang/GCC) and in my compiled code I can do whatever I want wrt allocating arrays on the stack. 2014-08-01T08:22:07Z Zhivago: VLAs are standard. 2014-08-01T08:22:18Z Zhivago: Ah, you mean for C++. 2014-08-01T08:22:21Z drmeister: And a0, a1, a2 get passed in registers - which has already made things run noticeably faster. 2014-08-01T08:22:28Z momo-reina joined #lisp 2014-08-01T08:23:57Z drmeister: If i use T** rest I can also prepend three unused entries just in case I need to put a0, a1, a2 into memory for non-trivial lambda lists. 2014-08-01T08:25:27Z drmeister: Crap it's 4:30am here - I better get to bed. Nighty nite all 2014-08-01T08:27:48Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-08-01T08:28:27Z Ralt joined #lisp 2014-08-01T08:36:26Z Blaguvest quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T08:36:42Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-08-01T08:36:45Z nug700 quit (Quit: bye) 2014-08-01T08:37:45Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T08:38:28Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-08-01T08:39:19Z ee_cc_ quit (Quit: ee_cc_) 2014-08-01T08:39:26Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T08:39:44Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-08-01T08:39:51Z stepnem joined #lisp 2014-08-01T08:39:59Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T08:40:31Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-08-01T08:40:40Z Blaguvest joined #lisp 2014-08-01T08:40:45Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T08:41:48Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-08-01T08:42:35Z nostoi quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-08-01T08:44:49Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T08:46:26Z 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Again, the performance will probably be penalized, considering structure sharing, and it can't be used for non-list sexps built with cons cells. 2014-08-01T12:08:32Z pjb: eg. (cons (cons 1 2) (cons 3 4)) 2014-08-01T12:09:32Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: it's better to make up your mind, and keep a static state of symbol set in your package. 2014-08-01T12:09:46Z pjb: Either you want or you don't want APPLY to be read as CL:APPLY, in your package. 2014-08-01T12:10:26Z pjb: You may change the set of symbols in your package dynamically and while reading the code of your package, but this is not a good idea. Eg. the mere moving of your code in your editor may change its meaning! 2014-08-01T12:11:02Z pjb: To understand a function in your source files, you will have to read the whole source file, always and every time! 2014-08-01T12:13:36Z joe-w-bimedina: I don't really understand this part "and keep a static state of symbol set in your package" and by change dynamically, do you mean, I can add the code to shadow cl:apply in or around my non cl:apply function, like shadow it in a let wrapping the function then unshadow it when the function is done running 2014-08-01T12:14:00Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-08-01T12:14:04Z joe-w-bimedina: I dont want to have long load times no matter what though 2014-08-01T12:15:09Z pjb: (defpackage "P" (:use "CL") (:shadow "APPLY")) (in-package "P") (defun apply (&rest args) (print args)) (defun f () (apply 'sin 42)) (unintern 'apply) (import 2014-08-01T12:15:19Z pjb: 'cl:apply) (defun g () (apply 'sin 42)) 2014-08-01T12:15:45Z pjb: If you do that, then moving g or f around (from one side to the other of unintern/import, will change their meaning. 2014-08-01T12:16:07Z pjb: It's better to stick to one set of symbols. 2014-08-01T12:16:23Z pjb: (defpackage "P" (:use "CL") (:shadow "APPLY")) (in-package "P") (defun apply (&rest args) (print args)) (defun f () (apply 'sin 42)) (defun g () (cl:apply 'sin 42)) 2014-08-01T12:16:47Z harish_ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T12:17:37Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T12:18:32Z urandom_1 joined #lisp 2014-08-01T12:18:45Z urandom__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-01T12:18:52Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-08-01T12:19:54Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-08-01T12:21:36Z joe-w-bimedina: so,in a nutshell, when you say " It's better to stick to one set of symbols." that means I should just find another name for my apply function, I have been using the let/let* naming style so far which isnt too bad 2014-08-01T12:23:06Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-08-01T12:26:40Z Jubb joined #lisp 2014-08-01T12:27:45Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-08-01T12:27:52Z Guthur: joe-w-bimedina: your let has not "shadowed" cl:apply, there are two namespace in a Lisp-2 one for functions and one for variables 2014-08-01T12:28:31Z Guthur: so if you bound a function to variable and then funcalled it, that is different that actually shadowing a symbol 2014-08-01T12:29:34Z joe-w-bimedina: I meant I just called names of functions i'm wrapping that have the same name as cl functions with an * on the end like cl:let* does 2014-08-01T12:29:35Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-01T12:29:53Z joe-w-bimedina: pjb: thanks for all the help on that btw;) 2014-08-01T12:30:09Z joe-w-bimedina: pjb: oops I meant :) 2014-08-01T12:30:27Z Guthur: ah, but cl:let* has a special meaning, but whatever 2014-08-01T12:31:37Z joe-w-bimedina: I know, but that is the best idea I have so far, I'll probably get a better one, but sort of like to use my function just add the * 2014-08-01T12:32:31Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-01T12:34:03Z Guthur: did you arbitrarily select to use a symbol name from the CL package 2014-08-01T12:34:03Z Guthur: or is to match up with some external API? 2014-08-01T12:34:32Z Guthur: if it was an arbitrary decision I would personally recommend changing it 2014-08-01T12:34:56Z Guthur: it can be a bit of a hassle using CL symbol names 2014-08-01T12:36:10Z joe-w-bimedina: no, apply is the name of a few member functions in OpencV, I like to name member function wrappers to as close as I can get to the actual member function. 2014-08-01T12:38:16Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T12:43:03Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T12:43:11Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-01T12:44:17Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-08-01T12:44:32Z ee_cc_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T12:44:51Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-08-01T12:44:52Z tadni quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T12:44:53Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T12:45:33Z sword quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T12:45:50Z tadni joined #lisp 2014-08-01T12:46:17Z ivan\ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T12:46:18Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T12:46:18Z ivan\ quit (Changing host) 2014-08-01T12:46:18Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T12:49:16Z theos joined #lisp 2014-08-01T12:49:46Z joe-w-bimedina: Guthur: Thank you for replying to my post, I appreciate it 2014-08-01T12:50:08Z Cymew: Sounds like calling al the functions in your library opencv-FOO might be a better idea 2014-08-01T12:51:02Z ee_cc joined #lisp 2014-08-01T12:51:07Z Gooder` joined #lisp 2014-08-01T12:52:06Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: you can use "APPLY" to name your symbol. Just shadow CL:APPLY, and use CL:APPLY when you need to refer to CL:APPLY instead of your APPLY. 2014-08-01T12:52:26Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: you can see an example of that in cl-stepper. 2014-08-01T12:53:19Z pjb: https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/source/df5169b80fb7f50dbe6891b5600f065f9d485fa8:common-lisp/lisp/stepper.lisp 2014-08-01T12:53:40Z alexherbo2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T12:54:07Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-01T12:55:33Z joe-w-bimedina: Cynew: yeah, trying to save typing but that is an idea that would look nice, like everything called be cv::, and I would just stay out of package, but then I would have to type cv:: on everything instead of a * on 4 functions, pjb: yeah I guess I was trying to have it all, but for now, might just stick to apply* but those last two ideas are not bad 2014-08-01T12:55:40Z pjb: Notice that it's the same typing opencv:foo than opencv-foo; So if you define a package that has a lot of symbols with the same name as in CL, you can just not use it, but instead use qualified symbols. 2014-08-01T12:56:15Z pjb: cv-apply might be better than apply*. 2014-08-01T12:56:15Z joe-w-bimedina: what are qualified symbols 2014-08-01T12:56:21Z pjb: cv:apply 2014-08-01T12:58:08Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-08-01T12:59:23Z joe-w-bimedina: I think I might just make a package that that would have my length , set, apply functions in, thanks for that idea:) how do i make it so I have to call cv::apply to use apply while in my cv package, or would that be too confusing? 2014-08-01T13:01:21Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T13:02:31Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-08-01T13:03:02Z karupa is now known as zz_karupa 2014-08-01T13:07:04Z pranavrc quit 2014-08-01T13:07:20Z ramkrsna quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-01T13:07:34Z ee_cc quit (Quit: ee_cc) 2014-08-01T13:07:36Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-08-01T13:08:19Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2014-08-01T13:09:05Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-01T13:10:10Z farhaven_ is now known as farhaven 2014-08-01T13:11:03Z madmalik quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-08-01T13:12:35Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-01T13:13:25Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-08-01T13:14:11Z tadni quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-01T13:16:03Z ramkrsna quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-01T13:16:42Z anunnaki quit (Changing host) 2014-08-01T13:16:42Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2014-08-01T13:16:54Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-08-01T13:17:55Z tadni joined #lisp 2014-08-01T13:18:03Z mynick joined #lisp 2014-08-01T13:20:11Z bsima joined #lisp 2014-08-01T13:21:55Z hansch joined #lisp 2014-08-01T13:22:22Z mynick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T13:23:49Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-08-01T13:25:05Z juanlas joined #lisp 2014-08-01T13:28:31Z JuanDaugherty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-01T13:30:47Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-01T13:31:38Z Guthur quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-08-01T13:31:42Z Guthur joined #lisp 2014-08-01T13:32:22Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-01T13:33:03Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T13:33:17Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-08-01T13:34:03Z hitecnologys: pjb: cl-apply looks nice. I agree. 2014-08-01T13:34:36Z hitecnologys: Actually, calling all lov-level bindings cv-* might be very good idea. 2014-08-01T13:35:47Z hitecnologys: I don't think somebody cares about typing much if it's not DO-SOMETHING-AND-SOMETHING-ELSE-AND-ALSO-MORE-STUFF-UNTIL-DONE-LOOP-CALLER. 2014-08-01T13:37:35Z nipra quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-01T13:37:41Z stassats: that's not that long 2014-08-01T13:39:06Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-08-01T13:39:17Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-01T13:39:32Z hitecnologys: Yes, but I think you get the point. 2014-08-01T13:40:02Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-08-01T13:43:44Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T13:44:06Z jchoch___ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T13:46:10Z tesuji joined #lisp 2014-08-01T13:46:20Z jchochl__ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-01T13:46:58Z jchochli quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-01T13:46:59Z Gooder` quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-01T13:47:04Z ehu_ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T13:47:20Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2014-08-01T13:48:22Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T13:48:56Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-01T13:49:18Z Jameser joined #lisp 2014-08-01T13:49:18Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-08-01T13:49:50Z ivan\ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T13:49:50Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T13:49:51Z ivan\ quit (Changing host) 2014-08-01T13:49:51Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T13:54:39Z billstclair joined #lisp 2014-08-01T13:57:17Z ivan\ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T13:57:24Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T14:00:48Z amadsen joined #lisp 2014-08-01T14:04:42Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-01T14:05:56Z Quasus joined #lisp 2014-08-01T14:06:34Z lduros` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T14:07:35Z lduros joined #lisp 2014-08-01T14:15:30Z nell joined #lisp 2014-08-01T14:21:12Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-08-01T14:21:12Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-08-01T14:21:12Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-08-01T14:22:07Z attila_lendvai quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-01T14:25:12Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-08-01T14:25:48Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-08-01T14:26:05Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-08-01T14:26:56Z didi joined #lisp 2014-08-01T14:28:23Z stassats quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T14:29:10Z ivan\ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T14:29:10Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T14:29:10Z ivan\ quit (Changing host) 2014-08-01T14:29:10Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T14:30:40Z MrMc joined #lisp 2014-08-01T14:31:46Z Jessin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-01T14:32:33Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-01T14:33:14Z Jessin joined #lisp 2014-08-01T14:37:13Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2014-08-01T14:38:46Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-08-01T14:39:56Z AdmiralBumbleBee quit (Quit: AdmiralBumbleBee) 2014-08-01T14:40:58Z Nizumzen quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-01T14:42:37Z bsima quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-01T14:47:01Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-08-01T14:48:04Z varjag quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-01T14:51:28Z bsima joined #lisp 2014-08-01T14:52:50Z eudoxia: quick guys, any recent articles that summarize the good things about common lisp 2014-08-01T14:53:09Z eudoxia: i might be able to turn a coworker but can't be bothered to type a whole essay 2014-08-01T14:53:18Z jdz: eudoxia: that's CLHS man 2014-08-01T14:54:09Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-01T15:03:09Z MrMc: How does one use X11 extentions with clx I have read the manual but there is no mention of its done 2014-08-01T15:03:34Z MrMc: ^ how its done 2014-08-01T15:04:24Z pgomes joined #lisp 2014-08-01T15:05:07Z hitecnologys: eudoxia: http://random-state.net/features-of-common-lisp.html 2014-08-01T15:06:08Z pgomes quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2014-08-01T15:08:09Z boogie joined #lisp 2014-08-01T15:08:14Z eudoxia: hitecnologys: with "recent" i mean something that focuses on things that are specific to lisp. most languages these days have higher order functions so that's no longer very attractive 2014-08-01T15:08:55Z Alfr joined #lisp 2014-08-01T15:09:17Z hitecnologys: eudoxia: ah, I see. 2014-08-01T15:11:21Z wws joined #lisp 2014-08-01T15:11:55Z eudoxia: for example: CL's module system is a blessing to someone who works at a Python shop 2014-08-01T15:12:16Z billstclair quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-08-01T15:12:19Z eudoxia: and ADSF. I love it. it's the best thing. 2014-08-01T15:12:22Z wws is now known as billstclair 2014-08-01T15:12:27Z billstclair quit (Changing host) 2014-08-01T15:12:27Z billstclair joined #lisp 2014-08-01T15:13:30Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-01T15:13:55Z maxpeck quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-08-01T15:14:06Z hitecnologys: Well, I don't think there's something like that. 2014-08-01T15:14:16Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-08-01T15:16:20Z eudoxia: guess i'll have to write it 2014-08-01T15:16:39Z oGMo: there was a thing a long time ago but i can't find it now 2014-08-01T15:17:04Z wws joined #lisp 2014-08-01T15:18:31Z oGMo: http://common-lisp.net/language.html .. but that's more survey and less "wow" perhaps. 2014-08-01T15:19:05Z gingerale joined #lisp 2014-08-01T15:19:09Z eudoxia: that's the link hitecnologys sent 2014-08-01T15:19:13Z billstclair quit (Ping timeout: 184 seconds) 2014-08-01T15:19:17Z oGMo: ah 2014-08-01T15:20:03Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-08-01T15:20:14Z billstclair quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-01T15:20:16Z estebian left #lisp 2014-08-01T15:20:27Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-08-01T15:23:19Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-08-01T15:23:33Z hansch quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T15:25:08Z knob quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-01T15:25:37Z ikki joined #lisp 2014-08-01T15:26:21Z knob joined #lisp 2014-08-01T15:27:14Z PuercoPop quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-08-01T15:27:14Z TDog_ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T15:28:31Z marsbot is now known as marsam 2014-08-01T15:29:22Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-01T15:29:24Z TDog_ is now known as TDog 2014-08-01T15:33:33Z MrMc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T15:33:56Z wws is now known as billstclair 2014-08-01T15:34:00Z billstclair quit (Changing host) 2014-08-01T15:34:01Z billstclair joined #lisp 2014-08-01T15:35:27Z hitecnologys: Does anybody know where does "RUNE" package come from? I'm trying to make Closure browser work but it seems to be quite out of sync with reality. 2014-08-01T15:35:35Z hitecnologys: s/RUNE/RUNES/ 2014-08-01T15:35:45Z pjb: it's with babel, IIRC. 2014-08-01T15:36:26Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-08-01T15:36:50Z eudoxia: probably that since rune refers to a unicode glypth (at least in libutf and Go) 2014-08-01T15:38:20Z hitecnologys: Bleh, Closure is hopelessly broken. 2014-08-01T15:38:30Z hitecnologys: Thanks for help anyway. 2014-08-01T15:38:38Z pjb: man of little faith! 2014-08-01T15:38:39Z stardiviner quit (Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/) 2014-08-01T15:38:59Z pjb: Just give it some maintainance and it'll will be nice! 2014-08-01T15:40:04Z hitecnologys: I didn't mean to give up. What I was trying to say: "Dammit, Closure is homelessly broken. It doesn even load. I think I need to fix sources then.". 2014-08-01T15:40:04Z loke_ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T15:40:19Z hitecnologys: s/home/hope/ 2014-08-01T15:41:13Z Jessin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-01T15:46:40Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-08-01T15:46:43Z easye quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-01T15:46:47Z Blkt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-01T15:47:06Z Blkt joined #lisp 2014-08-01T15:54:52Z ikki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T15:57:28Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-01T15:58:57Z ehu_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T15:59:22Z zophy joined #lisp 2014-08-01T15:59:24Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-08-01T15:59:48Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T16:00:25Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-08-01T16:02:55Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-01T16:03:41Z sword joined #lisp 2014-08-01T16:03:45Z Guthur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T16:03:53Z hitecnologys: Has anyone heard of something called "glisp"? 2014-08-01T16:04:19Z Lefeni joined #lisp 2014-08-01T16:04:44Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T16:04:46Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-01T16:04:57Z drmeiste_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-01T16:05:28Z Xach: i ain't 2014-08-01T16:05:41Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-08-01T16:05:43Z eudoxia: isn't that a g-code/CNC library thing 2014-08-01T16:05:57Z eudoxia: oh no it's https://github.com/zhemao/glisp 2014-08-01T16:06:03Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-08-01T16:06:39Z jebes joined #lisp 2014-08-01T16:06:59Z hitecnologys: Glisp seems to be a part of Closure. I think it's used only in it and I have no idea what it does. 2014-08-01T16:07:27Z hitecnologys: I tried googling it but with no success. 2014-08-01T16:08:00Z eudoxia: is there a github repo with the closure source code 2014-08-01T16:08:06Z eudoxia: so we can browse around 2014-08-01T16:08:19Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-01T16:08:29Z eudoxia: oh here it is https://github.com/spike2251/closure-web-browser 2014-08-01T16:09:00Z hitecnologys: eudoxia: I have cloned sources. 2014-08-01T16:09:06Z eudoxia: hitecnologys: looking at the source code it seems like a platform-independent abstraction layer 2014-08-01T16:09:27Z hitecnologys: eudoxia: but thanks, I didn't know there was git mirror. I don't like CVS much. 2014-08-01T16:10:03Z eudoxia: also a regexp engine... and a bunch of utilities, including possibly the first CL futures library 2014-08-01T16:11:07Z jebes quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-01T16:12:05Z jebes joined #lisp 2014-08-01T16:12:05Z billstclair quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-01T16:12:17Z hitecnologys: It might have something to do with this yellow bar on the borrom of Closure window. 2014-08-01T16:12:39Z hitecnologys: I mean matching. 2014-08-01T16:13:41Z pjb: hitecnologys: ∀x∈Alphabet, ∃l∈Lisps name(l)=x⋅"Lisp"⧠ 2014-08-01T16:14:16Z Jameser joined #lisp 2014-08-01T16:14:33Z pjb: That's why Common Lisp was invented. 2014-08-01T16:14:48Z hitecnologys: Is this APL? 2014-08-01T16:15:12Z eudoxia: i think it's just math 2014-08-01T16:15:21Z pjb: Maths. :-) 2014-08-01T16:15:32Z jebes: yeah, just someone being fancy smancy with notation 2014-08-01T16:15:38Z pjb: But notice that you can easily write reader macros to make it a sexp 2014-08-01T16:15:39Z pjb: . 2014-08-01T16:15:49Z pjb: Let's profit from unicode. 2014-08-01T16:15:51Z dkcl: Oi, pass the Space Cadet keyboard 2014-08-01T16:16:21Z boogie quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2014-08-01T16:16:46Z Lefeni quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-01T16:17:14Z jebes: for all x in alphabet there exists l in lisps where name(l) = concatenate x and lisp 2014-08-01T16:17:18Z jebes: did I get that right? 2014-08-01T16:17:33Z hitecnologys: I think so. 2014-08-01T16:17:57Z jebes: now i want to learn APL 2014-08-01T16:18:24Z Alfr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T16:18:52Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T16:19:19Z hitecnologys: I've seen some APL code and it looks quite write-only to me. 2014-08-01T16:19:57Z jebes: atleast with J you don't have to have a funny keyboard 2014-08-01T16:20:12Z hitecnologys: Well, I'm kind of slow but now I got the joke. 2014-08-01T16:25:47Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-08-01T16:26:58Z erikc joined #lisp 2014-08-01T16:27:58Z sword quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T16:28:30Z loke_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T16:29:04Z spockokt: morning 2014-08-01T16:29:22Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T16:29:27Z billstclair joined #lisp 2014-08-01T16:29:37Z billstclair quit (Changing host) 2014-08-01T16:29:37Z billstclair joined #lisp 2014-08-01T16:31:12Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-08-01T16:34:17Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-08-01T16:34:52Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-08-01T16:35:04Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-08-01T16:35:17Z jasom: I've actually met a couple of people who use APL professionally. 2014-08-01T16:35:23Z Ragnaroek quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-01T16:35:31Z AeroNotix: eudoxia: I'm almost convinced you need to actually spend time with Lisp to even begin to have a hope of understanding why its particular set of features are good 2014-08-01T16:35:47Z AeroNotix: e.g. trying to explain macros is hard to do very, very well. 2014-08-01T16:35:49Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-08-01T16:36:04Z AeroNotix: Since there's a huge body of things with call themselves "macros" 2014-08-01T16:37:05Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: IIRC, ETH Zurich(the home of Scala, btw) uses an ERP written in APL 40 years ago 2014-08-01T16:38:05Z pgomes joined #lisp 2014-08-01T16:38:06Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-01T16:38:36Z eudoxia: AeroNotix: i agree, but that's not a good way to convince anyone anyways C; 2014-08-01T16:38:50Z eudoxia: unless they've heard good things about Lisp and want to learn it 2014-08-01T16:38:58Z AeroNotix: chicken/egg 2014-08-01T16:39:16Z AeroNotix: Either people are drawn to it themselves based on independent research or I doubt people can be convinced. 2014-08-01T16:39:30Z AeroNotix: just my experience any way 2014-08-01T16:39:32Z ARM9 joined #lisp 2014-08-01T16:39:36Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-01T16:39:53Z AeroNotix: whenever I exclaim to cow-orkers that some language/thing is good, you can be sure that they probably won't use it 2014-08-01T16:39:59Z JuanDaugherty: it's all aesthetics, personal decision 2014-08-01T16:40:00Z AeroNotix: maybe I'm just shit at making things sound good 2014-08-01T16:40:03Z AeroNotix: JuanDaugherty: this 2014-08-01T16:40:19Z AeroNotix: Also, people are inherently lazy and bound by fasion 2014-08-01T16:40:22Z AeroNotix: fashion 2014-08-01T16:40:41Z AeroNotix: that's why you have a generation of programmers who think writing JavaScript is a sane life decision 2014-08-01T16:40:43Z JuanDaugherty: that and buffetted by social forces they may have little power to resist 2014-08-01T16:41:01Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-08-01T16:41:03Z eudoxia: AeroNotix: i gave a talk at my workplace about Common Lisp and the only positive reaction i got was "maybe we can use clojure" 2014-08-01T16:41:15Z ARM9: or CoffeeScript *shudders* 2014-08-01T16:41:18Z AeroNotix: eudoxia: why is that? 2014-08-01T16:41:19Z zhangyh26258 joined #lisp 2014-08-01T16:41:21Z JuanDaugherty: the typical lisper prolly has 2-3X the normal career span as a doer compared to the normal attrition rate 2014-08-01T16:41:24Z AeroNotix: eudoxia: are you JVM based? 2014-08-01T16:41:30Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-01T16:41:33Z eudoxia: AeroNotix: no, we're a python/django shop 2014-08-01T16:41:37Z AeroNotix: very weird 2014-08-01T16:41:47Z AeroNotix: eudoxia: but actually, no 2014-08-01T16:41:52Z AeroNotix: Clojure is "fashionable" 2014-08-01T16:41:58Z spockokt: i work in a javascript shop. my existence is suffering 2014-08-01T16:42:06Z AeroNotix: spockokt: hahahaha sucks to be you hahahahahahahahahaha 2014-08-01T16:42:09Z AeroNotix: :D 2014-08-01T16:42:13Z spockokt: ;-; 2014-08-01T16:42:18Z eudoxia: i'd rather all of lisp remain obscure than clojure be the one popular lisp 2014-08-01T16:42:41Z eudoxia: have a nice website, put the words "modern" and "pragmatic", and that's it, guaranteed SV success 2014-08-01T16:42:44Z eudoxia: sigh 2014-08-01T16:43:05Z spockokt: what makes me sad is that my work revolves around telecomm. when is suggested using erlang/otp people just looked at me with a weird look 2014-08-01T16:43:07Z AeroNotix: eudoxia: day to day Clojure is a good lisp to be working in :) 2014-08-01T16:43:10Z JuanDaugherty: if you look on TIOBE lisps combined are prolly at the top of the non-algol like class 2014-08-01T16:43:19Z AeroNotix: spockokt: day to day Clojure is a good lisp to be working in :) (wrong person before) 2014-08-01T16:43:48Z AeroNotix: spockokt: lol wat 2014-08-01T16:43:49Z przl joined #lisp 2014-08-01T16:43:53Z AeroNotix: you write js for that kind of stuff? 2014-08-01T16:43:55Z spockokt: i havent looked at clojure to be honest. (actually im a new lisper learning with common lisp) 2014-08-01T16:43:58Z spockokt: yeah... 2014-08-01T16:44:01Z AeroNotix: At an Erlang/Clojure shop currently 2014-08-01T16:44:05Z AeroNotix: life is good 2014-08-01T16:44:08Z spockokt: lucky 2014-08-01T16:44:12Z AeroNotix: FP all day 2014-08-01T16:44:13Z eudoxia: all that effort spent creating the clojure ecosystem could have been spent improving CL's 2014-08-01T16:44:23Z spockokt: but yeah i looked at the code used for the switch and oh my god 2014-08-01T16:44:34Z AeroNotix: eudoxia: except you also have access to Java libraries 2014-08-01T16:44:42Z AeroNotix: which is a huge huge huge win 2014-08-01T16:44:46Z Xach: eudoxia: effort is not transferable 2014-08-01T16:45:07Z AeroNotix: Xach: deep, I've never thought of that before 2014-08-01T16:45:10Z eudoxia: AeroNotix: all the web dev stuff should have been in CL IMO 2014-08-01T16:45:13Z Xach: People work on what they want to work on regardless of some external metric of worthiness 2014-08-01T16:45:32Z eudoxia: but i just say that because then I wouldn't have to write the code I've written 2014-08-01T16:45:41Z AeroNotix: Imma go get drunk 2014-08-01T16:45:45Z AeroNotix: afk 2014-08-01T16:46:45Z JuanDaugherty is driven by aesthetics, my sense of 2014-08-01T16:46:59Z JuanDaugherty: that and $ 2014-08-01T16:47:44Z billstclair quit (Ping timeout: 186 seconds) 2014-08-01T16:47:47Z JuanDaugherty: and it's because of the latter I don't have no problem with js. Did an Angular gig at $60/hr earlier this year and was happy to do so 2014-08-01T16:48:22Z spockokt: js on the backend is a bit different from what ive dealth with so far 2014-08-01T16:48:35Z JuanDaugherty: it all boils down to the same instructions that actually get run 2014-08-01T16:48:38Z hitecnologys: JS on backend? 2014-08-01T16:48:43Z eudoxia: hitecnologys: Node.js 2014-08-01T16:48:48Z eudoxia: you lucky soul 2014-08-01T16:49:12Z billstclair quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-01T16:49:37Z hitecnologys: My glob. I'm going to have nightmares this night. 2014-08-01T16:50:07Z JuanDaugherty: js is not going away. It's a safe decision for someone who's doer span will be in the normal 5-7 attrition interval 2014-08-01T16:50:31Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-08-01T16:50:57Z shridhar joined #lisp 2014-08-01T16:51:44Z Khatsabz joined #lisp 2014-08-01T16:51:47Z Khatsabz left #lisp 2014-08-01T16:52:36Z JuanDaugherty: *whose 2014-08-01T16:53:05Z spockokt: ive had this discussion in #lispgames but it is interesting that js suddenly got big again 2014-08-01T16:53:24Z oGMo: again? 2014-08-01T16:53:31Z spockokt: well... i guess not again 2014-08-01T16:53:38Z JuanDaugherty: there's even a js implemented in cl thing, maybe in the topic 2014-08-01T16:53:49Z oGMo: and, you could say that about PHP or COBOL 2014-08-01T16:54:02Z eudoxia quit (Quit: wow such lunchtime) 2014-08-01T16:54:24Z oGMo: "it's not going away" isn't saying much and really isn't a ringing endorsement 2014-08-01T16:54:37Z spockokt: sounds like a disease 2014-08-01T16:55:35Z inklesspen: react.js is pretty nice 2014-08-01T16:55:51Z inklesspen: combine that with parenscript somehow and i bet you could have a good recipe 2014-08-01T16:55:53Z JuanDaugherty sees it as just another algol-like lang, a c derivative in fact 2014-08-01T16:56:11Z arenz joined #lisp 2014-08-01T16:56:15Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-08-01T16:56:16Z oGMo: ... 2014-08-01T16:56:38Z spockokt: js is just a lisp in c clothing right? 2014-08-01T16:56:49Z Fare joined #lisp 2014-08-01T16:57:09Z inklesspen: it has some influence from scheme 2014-08-01T16:57:21Z inklesspen: but that's not in the neighborhood of a correct statement 2014-08-01T16:57:26Z oGMo: JuanDaugherty: baked potatoes are also good with sour cream. still not a convincing or relevant argument. 2014-08-01T16:57:48Z JuanDaugherty: the base ECMA lang was actually frozen a long time ago 2014-08-01T16:58:07Z JuanDaugherty: closures and all that kind of stuff are usage, implementation details 2014-08-01T16:58:33Z JuanDaugherty: *closures 2014-08-01T17:02:04Z ARM9: perhaps lisp-light 2014-08-01T17:02:39Z yabbounic joined #lisp 2014-08-01T17:02:45Z spockokt: diet lisp 2014-08-01T17:03:34Z ARM9: with cherry flavour 2014-08-01T17:03:50Z yabbounic left #lisp 2014-08-01T17:04:44Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T17:05:59Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-08-01T17:06:07Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-01T17:06:11Z varjag joined #lisp 2014-08-01T17:07:35Z hugod is now known as hugod|away 2014-08-01T17:07:51Z hugod|away is now known as hugod 2014-08-01T17:08:44Z Fare joined #lisp 2014-08-01T17:10:37Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-01T17:12:11Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T17:12:57Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-08-01T17:15:20Z banjara joined #lisp 2014-08-01T17:19:46Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-08-01T17:21:41Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 2014-08-01T17:22:30Z zhangyh26258 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-01T17:22:43Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-01T17:23:07Z zhangyh26258 joined #lisp 2014-08-01T17:24:39Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-08-01T17:27:05Z ThePhoeron quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-01T17:27:22Z foreignFunction joined #lisp 2014-08-01T17:28:44Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-01T17:31:16Z titan joined #lisp 2014-08-01T17:33:36Z pers joined #lisp 2014-08-01T17:34:02Z ThePhoeron joined #lisp 2014-08-01T17:35:15Z jasom: spockokt: js is probably most strongly influenced by self 2014-08-01T17:35:47Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-08-01T17:36:50Z gadmyth joined #lisp 2014-08-01T17:37:29Z jasom: and any lisp influence in it is by way of scheme IIRC 2014-08-01T17:37:49Z zhangyh26258 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-01T17:38:14Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T17:40:22Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-08-01T17:40:22Z ltbarcly quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-01T17:40:30Z titan: has anyone ever built a chess engine in CL? Any advice or resources? 2014-08-01T17:42:52Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-08-01T17:43:37Z Xach: titan: I think I've seen one or two toys started on github, but nothing springs to mind as a "real" project 2014-08-01T17:45:36Z madmalik joined #lisp 2014-08-01T17:47:11Z titan: Xach: okay I'll check those out. Any thoughts on board representation in CL? 2D list is easy but it seems pretty inefficient to do all that traversal. 2014-08-01T17:48:15Z hitecnologys: titan: 2D array. 2014-08-01T17:48:33Z didi: titan: If you are writing a game to be played by humans, don't worry much about it. 2014-08-01T17:49:01Z didi: titan: Even if you plan to write a bot, you can change the representation when it's time for the bot's move. 2014-08-01T17:52:22Z titan: didi: It's more to play against other computers. That's a good point about changing it. 2014-08-01T17:52:27Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-01T17:53:16Z juanlas joined #lisp 2014-08-01T17:53:57Z titan: hitecnologys: Thanks, I never realized there's a native array implementation. I guess that's my noob showing haha 2014-08-01T17:54:11Z Sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-01T17:54:40Z Xach: If you think lists are the only data structure in Common Lisp, you are in for a series of pleasant surprises. 2014-08-01T17:55:51Z hitecnologys: Indeed. I would start with learning what kind of data structures you already have so that you won't accidentally reinvent one. 2014-08-01T17:56:25Z kutsuya1 joined #lisp 2014-08-01T17:57:14Z kutsuya quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-01T17:58:56Z ggole: I think fast chess engines tend to use bitsets rather than arrays 2014-08-01T17:59:46Z hitecnologys: Maybe. I'm not into chess engines writing. Arrays just looks like a natural way to represent board. 2014-08-01T18:04:35Z ARM9: what's a good clisp repl/compiler/debugger/etc. toolchain for windows, just getting started 2014-08-01T18:04:47Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-08-01T18:04:48Z ARM9: there's like 50 different implementations listed on cliki 2014-08-01T18:05:02Z Xach: lispworks is the best money can buy. 2014-08-01T18:05:11Z Xach: clozure cl is a good free option. sbcl is all right too. 2014-08-01T18:05:34Z ARM9: I see, I'll have a look, thanks. 2014-08-01T18:10:53Z erikc: i wish lispworks professional’s price included all platforms 2014-08-01T18:12:30Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-01T18:18:24Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-08-01T18:18:40Z nug700 joined #lisp 2014-08-01T18:20:29Z lisp-newcomer joined #lisp 2014-08-01T18:23:11Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-01T18:25:57Z billstclair joined #lisp 2014-08-01T18:25:57Z billstclair quit (Changing host) 2014-08-01T18:25:57Z billstclair joined #lisp 2014-08-01T18:27:44Z marsam is now known as marsbot 2014-08-01T18:28:01Z lisp-newcomer: Hi all. I've searched thoroughly for an answer to this question, but I haven't been able to find any explanation. When I create a symbol like so '123-123, it becomes |123-123| (bars are added around it.) I'm very curious as to why this happens. Anyone know, or can point me in the right direction? 2014-08-01T18:28:16Z JuanDaugherty wishes for world piece 2014-08-01T18:29:06Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-08-01T18:29:50Z jdoolin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-01T18:30:14Z Fare: lisp-newcomer, creating it with intern? 2014-08-01T18:30:14Z Xach: lisp-newcomer: http://l1sp.org/cl/2.3.1.1 I believe 2014-08-01T18:31:04Z Xach: lisp-newcomer: the bars are not part of the symbol, but are syntax for printing in a readable way. 2014-08-01T18:31:12Z Fare: lisp-newcomer, can you distinguish between an object, its print representation, and a string that when read evaluates to the same object (modulo some equality predicate)? 2014-08-01T18:31:13Z Xach: like double quotes when printing a string 2014-08-01T18:31:23Z antonv joined #lisp 2014-08-01T18:31:47Z Fare: Lisp makes the latter two coincide in many cases, but not always. 2014-08-01T18:31:48Z knob quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-01T18:31:55Z lisp-newcomer: Fare: I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. As my nick indicates, I'm new to lisp. Reading through A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation, and this came up in one of the tasks. 2014-08-01T18:32:48Z lisp-newcomer: Ahh, I see. I think I understand now. 2014-08-01T18:33:08Z ikki joined #lisp 2014-08-01T18:33:08Z Fare: lisp-newcomer, think of an object as a node in a graph, with slots that point to other nodes, with primitive objects as leaves 2014-08-01T18:34:26Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-01T18:36:47Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T18:36:51Z lisp-newcomer: Mhm. I remember that from chapter 3 (and other chapters after that.) 2014-08-01T18:39:23Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-08-01T18:40:25Z lisp-newcomer: I just re-read chapter 3.18, and I learned that a symbols have names (but they are not names themselves). So the added bars are just for representation, while the name is still unaltered? (symbol-name '123-123) seem to confirm my suspicion.) 2014-08-01T18:41:01Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-08-01T18:41:09Z Xach: lisp-newcomer: yes. 2014-08-01T18:41:35Z lisp-newcomer: Excellent! Thank you very much for your help! 2014-08-01T18:41:57Z archonix joined #lisp 2014-08-01T18:42:06Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-08-01T18:49:14Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-08-01T18:49:20Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-08-01T18:50:13Z jasom: lisp-newcomer: As to why the symbol named "123-123" gets printed with quoting, it is due to the fact that (in theory) a lisp implementation could have an extended syntax for numbers in which 123-123 could be read in as a number rather than a symbol. 2014-08-01T18:50:45Z jasom: clhs 2.3.1.1 2014-08-01T18:50:45Z specbot: Potential Numbers as Tokens: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_caa.htm 2014-08-01T18:53:09Z jasom: quoting it makes it unambiguously a symbol. 2014-08-01T18:53:23Z jasom: er escaping it rather 2014-08-01T18:53:43Z jasom: everywhere I said "quoting" earlier I meant escaping 2014-08-01T18:54:05Z JuanDaugherty: they don't say 'stropping' in the lisp culture? 2014-08-01T18:54:31Z jasom: JuanDaugherty: only time I've heard "stropping" is with regards to sharpening a knife 2014-08-01T18:55:35Z JuanDaugherty: k 2014-08-01T18:56:45Z jasom: JuanDaugherty: I just looked it up; lisp doesn't have anything like stropping that I'm aware of. 2014-08-01T18:57:21Z jasom: perhaps the leading : for keywords 2014-08-01T18:57:41Z jasom: but even then, it's still a symbol 2014-08-01T18:59:03Z JuanDaugherty: prolly does, just don't call it that 2014-08-01T18:59:43Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-08-01T18:59:56Z JuanDaugherty .oO( for 'prolly' read 'certainly') 2014-08-01T19:00:19Z bsima quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-01T19:02:54Z jasom: JuanDaugherty: due to packages, it's not really necessary 2014-08-01T19:03:04Z jasom: If you want a variable named T, you can do it by shadowing CL:T 2014-08-01T19:03:55Z jasom: and you already can bind the names of special forms to variables due to the lisp-2 nature of common lisp 2014-08-01T19:04:27Z jasom: e.g. (let ((if nil)) (if if 1 2)) => 2 2014-08-01T19:04:33Z Ragnaroek joined #lisp 2014-08-01T19:06:06Z k-stz joined #lisp 2014-08-01T19:07:24Z jasom: JuanDaugherty: after reading up on stropping, I would say that I haven't seen anything like it outside of color-forth and algol 2014-08-01T19:07:52Z JuanDaugherty: r, it's from the latter I know it 2014-08-01T19:08:36Z JuanDaugherty: putatively, every element of computing has some effective analogue in lisp 2014-08-01T19:08:48Z JuanDaugherty: that's my expectation anyway 2014-08-01T19:09:50Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Exit IRC/Hibernate) 2014-08-01T19:10:07Z kristof joined #lisp 2014-08-01T19:10:31Z jasom: JuanDaugherty: escaped characters are treated as alphabetic characters (and lose any other syntax type). That's not quite the same. With algol it was actually "a bold if" was the keyword for doing an if statement, and the fact that apostrophes were used to make a bold word was an implementation detail 2014-08-01T19:11:17Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-08-01T19:11:59Z Ragnaroek quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-01T19:14:12Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-08-01T19:14:13Z ft quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-01T19:14:15Z ZombieChicken joined #lisp 2014-08-01T19:14:37Z ft joined #lisp 2014-08-01T19:14:44Z jasom: similarly in color forth the canonical representation is that of red, green, black, and blue words 2014-08-01T19:14:50Z kristof: Are there languages with pluggable garbage collector algorithms? 2014-08-01T19:15:05Z jasom: kristof: define "pluggable" 2014-08-01T19:15:32Z kristof: jasom: you can specify garbage collector parameters at compile time 2014-08-01T19:15:37Z kristof: I know .NET has something similar to this 2014-08-01T19:15:53Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-01T19:15:55Z jasom: kristof: it's really hard to make an efficient GC without the evaluator and/or compiler knowing some details of the GC algorithm 2014-08-01T19:15:57Z kristof: jasom: That's not quite the same as pluggable, so I guess I mean "user-optimizable" 2014-08-01T19:17:23Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T19:18:56Z pjb: AFAIK, the only languages with a "pluggable" garbage collect are those like C that don't have any memory management, and therefore where you can provide anything you want, and C++. 2014-08-01T19:19:25Z pjb: It's really hard to make a GC without knowing information only the compiler knows, like structure layouts etc. 2014-08-01T19:19:50Z jasom: pjb: also languages that target a memory managed VM, and then the VM can implement whichever GC algorithm it chooses 2014-08-01T19:19:59Z jasom: jvm, clr 2014-08-01T19:20:39Z pjb: The main problem being the root set: the compiler must define what registers and temporary variables are in the root set. If you don't have this support, you must have the programmer put in the root set all the temporary values for all subexpressions! 2014-08-01T19:20:49Z no0y quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T19:29:30Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-08-01T19:31:13Z kristof: That makes sense. 2014-08-01T19:36:14Z ggole: There are a bunch of implementations that allow tuning various GC knobs 2014-08-01T19:36:34Z pjb: And some that allow selecting a GC algorithm at compilation time too. 2014-08-01T19:36:38Z ggole: The nature and extent of that kind of support varies widely. 2014-08-01T19:36:50Z kristof: I think what pjb just said is what I'm looking for 2014-08-01T19:37:06Z pjb: sbcl offers (or offered) the choice, IIRC. 2014-08-01T19:37:15Z ggole: I dunno about letting the programmer write their own though, never heard of that 2014-08-01T19:37:21Z jebes: I'm currently working on implementing a kernel level garbage collector for my lisp OS 2014-08-01T19:37:40Z jebes: ggole: c++ and rust allow the programmer to place in their own GC 2014-08-01T19:37:59Z kristof: Much of Rust doesn't require garbage collection anyway because of lifetimes 2014-08-01T19:39:00Z didi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-01T19:39:01Z jebes: yeah, that's kind of amazing though. But rust doesn't really feel right to me... 2014-08-01T19:39:22Z didi joined #lisp 2014-08-01T19:39:51Z kristof: In what way? 2014-08-01T19:40:12Z ggole: Could you implement, say, a copying GC? 2014-08-01T19:40:44Z jebes: it jut really doesn't, the sytax is clean, but something just feels off about it. Maybe I just don't know enough about it yet. 2014-08-01T19:43:03Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-01T19:43:16Z kristof: jebes: I'm the opposite. The syntax is god awful, procedural macros are still a bit of a cludge in Rust, and I overall just hate looking at Rust code. But in general I quite like its wide array of features and qualities. 2014-08-01T19:44:08Z kristof: jebes: I just don't like the fact that they still use "methods" as opposed to generic functions which are clearly the superior abstraction, and the wide range of heap-based memory management is... confusing. 2014-08-01T19:46:48Z jebes: consufing just sums up the language for me 2014-08-01T19:50:54Z kristof: jebes: It's Scala syndrome. The peanut butter is all-up-in-the chocolate and overlapping ideas are separately implemented as atomic language constructs in Rust. 2014-08-01T19:51:00Z spockokt is now known as spaghetti_on_fir 2014-08-01T19:51:03Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T19:51:25Z spaghetti_on_fir is now known as spaghetonfire 2014-08-01T19:51:39Z kristof: jebes: So you get everything ever invented in one language even though consolidation of features was possible. 2014-08-01T19:52:04Z jebes: the best languages are usually the simpliest... 2014-08-01T19:53:50Z spaghetonfire: so scala is the recess peanutbutter cup of languages? 2014-08-01T19:53:54Z jaimef: we need a new language 2014-08-01T19:54:04Z spaghetonfire: call it recess 2014-08-01T19:54:11Z jaimef: :P 2014-08-01T19:54:30Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-08-01T19:54:35Z ARM9 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-01T19:54:46Z pers quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-01T19:55:05Z jebes: i've tried making my own language, always get hung up on the design step 2014-08-01T19:55:06Z kristof: jaimef: Everytime I find myself thinking that, I figure out what it is that I want, and then subsequently realize that Common Lisp is more than satisfactory 2014-08-01T19:55:25Z jebes: kristof: I like Lisp-1's better :( 2014-08-01T19:56:08Z kristof: jebes: I'm going to side with Kent Pitman and say that Lisp-2's are "better", but Common Lisp is more like a Lisp-5 or 6 2014-08-01T19:56:50Z jaimef: yeah, almost on the verge of dropping elisp for serious shit 2014-08-01T19:56:51Z jebes: what do you mean? 2014-08-01T19:57:34Z kristof: jebes: See Pitman's paper on lisp-1 versus lisp-2. The skinny is that there are more namespaces in common lisp than simply "function" and "variable" namespaces. 2014-08-01T19:58:12Z spaghetonfire: don't classes reside in it's own namespace as well? 2014-08-01T19:58:21Z jebes: i wouldn't have a problem if I could call something as a function using its namespace without going through a funcall... or can I? 2014-08-01T19:58:42Z enn: Going from Common Lisp to Clojure, the Lisp-1-ness was the hardest part for me to deal with. Felt so distracting to have to worry about local variable names shadowing library functions (and Clojure has so. many. library functions). 2014-08-01T19:59:10Z jaimef: wow 2014-08-01T19:59:17Z jaimef: enn: thanks for that 2014-08-01T19:59:17Z antoszka: jebes: I think 'namespace' is a misnomer here. 2014-08-01T19:59:27Z antoszka: jebes: I prefer to look at slots in a symbol. 2014-08-01T20:00:00Z antoszka: jebes: The evaluator looks at certain slots in a symbol in certain contexts, so (foo foo) is (function-slot-of-foo value-slot-of-foo) 2014-08-01T20:00:35Z jebes: that makes more sense.. is there any one to access these "slots" other than funcall 2014-08-01T20:00:44Z antoszka: (symbol-function ...) 2014-08-01T20:00:59Z antoszka: (symbol-value ...) symbol-package symbol-plist and probably others 2014-08-01T20:00:59Z jebes: ah, thank you 2014-08-01T20:01:33Z kristof: Anyway, I can't tell you how many times I've read Clojure code and had to reread it several times because it was unclear to me whether I was looking at a binding or a function call or a list. 2014-08-01T20:01:38Z antoszka: But that shouldn't concern you in most situations. 2014-08-01T20:01:50Z antoszka: Most of the time the evaluator just does the right thing. 2014-08-01T20:03:13Z kristof: jebes: lisp-2's are also good for compilers. You can just jump to function locations instead of dereferencing values and checking if they're function objects every time. 2014-08-01T20:03:17Z antoszka: jebes: Keep in mind that these slots aren't entirely universal, so while you can put a funcallable object (lambda or whatever) in the value slot of a symbol, you can't stick a random value in the function slot. 2014-08-01T20:03:19Z kristof: I don't know what scheme does to mitigate this. I should ask. 2014-08-01T20:03:32Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T20:03:58Z jebes: probably some integer tag or something in the struct for a value 2014-08-01T20:04:14Z kristof: That's not mitigating, that's still a box 2014-08-01T20:04:30Z jebes: everything is a function? 1 is a function returning 1? 2014-08-01T20:04:41Z kristof: Dereferencing, checking the tag, and *then* jumping is a lot more work than, you know, just jumping 2014-08-01T20:04:41Z jebes: although, that would probably take a serouis perfomance hit 2014-08-01T20:04:46Z hugod quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T20:05:01Z kristof: jebes: Not even math does that. :P 2014-08-01T20:05:27Z jebes: i wrote a vm that did that... it worked pretty okay. Never got to write branching though 2014-08-01T20:06:11Z antoszka: you mean like 1 would be a constant-function lambda always returning 1? (funcall #'1) => 1 ;)? 2014-08-01T20:06:23Z antoszka: that'd be funny 2014-08-01T20:06:28Z kristof: It'd be gross 2014-08-01T20:06:34Z antoszka: yeah, sure 2014-08-01T20:07:02Z Guest91661 joined #lisp 2014-08-01T20:07:49Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T20:08:03Z jchochl__ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T20:08:04Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-08-01T20:08:56Z ssake joined #lisp 2014-08-01T20:09:51Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-08-01T20:10:33Z jchochli quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T20:10:34Z jchoch___ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-01T20:12:13Z didi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T20:12:20Z jasom: kristof: I don't see how scheme is harder than lisp 2014-08-01T20:12:41Z kristof: harder how? Compilation? 2014-08-01T20:12:48Z jasom: (flet ((foo ...)) (foo ...)) vs. (let ((foo ...)) (foo ...) 2014-08-01T20:12:49Z ggole: Stack languages work that way 2014-08-01T20:13:01Z ggole: (The number-as-function thing, I mean.) 2014-08-01T20:13:23Z jasom: ggole: well in that case, so does lisp since (eval 1) => 1 2014-08-01T20:13:35Z foreignFunction quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-01T20:13:40Z kristof: eval'ing an atom is not quite the same as calling a function 2014-08-01T20:13:52Z jasom: ggole: since evaluating a function that takes 0 arguments is the same as evaluating an atom in a stack language 2014-08-01T20:15:15Z ggole: ...but it isn't in Lisp, undermining your point 2014-08-01T20:15:18Z jasom: okay 2014-08-01T20:16:36Z Guest91661 is now known as hugoduncan 2014-08-01T20:17:14Z kristof throws up hands 2014-08-01T20:18:49Z jasom: well string literals in forth are particularly interesting, as they push 2 values onto the stack. 2014-08-01T20:19:18Z Bike: string and length? 2014-08-01T20:19:23Z jasom: pointer and length 2014-08-01T20:19:47Z ikki quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-01T20:20:00Z jebes: why not have them just nul-terminated? 2014-08-01T20:20:04Z ggole: IIRC the scheme literature mostly talks about compiling known functions efficiently 2014-08-01T20:20:16Z ggole: (I'm thinking about the lambda papers, that Orbit paper, etc) 2014-08-01T20:20:25Z jasom: jebes: because nul-terminated strings are responsible for more bugs in C than almost any other design choice 2014-08-01T20:20:45Z jebes: really...? 2014-08-01T20:21:13Z ggole: Obviously known-calls don't have to do type checking of the callee's value 2014-08-01T20:21:27Z Bike: jebes: buffer overflows, etc 2014-08-01T20:21:40Z jasom: jebes: well that might be an exaggeration, but for programs that have to process dynamically created strings, it seems likely. Just look at the number of better string library implementations out there... 2014-08-01T20:21:58Z kristof: ggole: That's probably true. But I still like the readability of sharp-quote. Haskell, Clojure, and Scheme style passing of functions to higher order functions has always frustrated me 2014-08-01T20:22:13Z Bike: without nul terminated strings there'd be no strcpy, and, well 2014-08-01T20:22:29Z jebes: no buffer overflows? 2014-08-01T20:22:49Z Bike: probably not none, but a lot fewer 2014-08-01T20:23:08Z jebes: the OBSD compiliers scream at you if you have strcpy in your code 2014-08-01T20:23:33Z Bike: yeah, well, people have learned, that doesn't mean it's always been peachy 2014-08-01T20:23:35Z jasom: jebes: http://www.and.org/vstr/comparison <-- there's a small sample of how many people hated C's builting strings to enough to create a working replacment 2014-08-01T20:23:49Z kristof: Do Lisp strings automatically know their own length? 2014-08-01T20:23:53Z Bike: you'd have to write code that's like "allocate 80 char buffer; copy 80 chars into buffer;" instead of "allocate 80 char buffer; copy string into buffer;" which wouldn't even make sense 2014-08-01T20:23:57Z Bike: kristof: yes 2014-08-01T20:24:00Z ggole: kristof: well, that's a matter of taste. Personally I find the duplication of binding constructs pretty ugly. 2014-08-01T20:24:06Z jasom: kristof: yes, in Lisp strings are just arrays of characters 2014-08-01T20:24:11Z ggole: But well, both of 'em work fine. 2014-08-01T20:24:33Z jasom: kristof: or more formally a vector specialized any subtype of character 2014-08-01T20:25:16Z kristof: ggole: See, I prefer flet + let as well! I didn't even think about that until you mentioned it. Mixing algorithm definitions and small data bindings in the same form makes me twinge slightly. 2014-08-01T20:25:21Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-01T20:25:21Z kristof: jasom: Right, that's true. 2014-08-01T20:25:43Z kristof: Sometimes I forget what lisp does and doesn't do automagically 2014-08-01T20:25:47Z jasom: kristof: and in Lisp, arrays know their own length (and potentially a lot more) 2014-08-01T20:26:00Z kristof: jasom: My misunderstanding was how simple a simple vector can be 2014-08-01T20:26:27Z Bike: simple-vectors all have the same type specialization, so all you need is a pointer and length 2014-08-01T20:26:31Z jasom: kristof: even if you compile with (safety 0) you can still use LENGTH on a vector 2014-08-01T20:27:02Z jasom: kristof: though an implementation is allowed to elide bounds checking with safety 0 I think 2014-08-01T20:27:04Z kristof: jasom: Well, as a c programmer I hear "length" and think strlen 2014-08-01T20:27:10Z kristof: :P 2014-08-01T20:27:13Z kristof: But yes, I appreciate this clarification 2014-08-01T20:28:39Z jaimef quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-01T20:31:28Z jaimef joined #lisp 2014-08-01T20:31:34Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-01T20:37:17Z AirConFan joined #lisp 2014-08-01T20:37:21Z AirConFan: Hi! 2014-08-01T20:37:34Z AirConFan: This is the only channel I know and frequent so sorry for the off topic. 2014-08-01T20:37:42Z marsbot is now known as marsam 2014-08-01T20:37:48Z AirConFan: Are there any good channels for talking about Airconditioning other than ##airconditioning ? 2014-08-01T20:37:53Z AirConFan: they're very strict 2014-08-01T20:38:04Z ikki joined #lisp 2014-08-01T20:38:35Z jebes: ...what 2014-08-01T20:38:44Z AirConFan: I know, sorry for the off topic 2014-08-01T20:39:09Z jebes: i am suprised that is a thing 2014-08-01T20:39:32Z bsima joined #lisp 2014-08-01T20:43:43Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-01T20:44:09Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-08-01T20:48:39Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-08-01T20:48:51Z pjb: jasom: in Common Lisp, arrays of characters are not strings. strings are vectors of characters. 2014-08-01T20:50:03Z pjb: AirConFan: we're very strict too. 2014-08-01T20:50:06Z AirConFan left #lisp 2014-08-01T20:50:19Z AirConFan joined #lisp 2014-08-01T20:50:25Z AirConFan: Sorry I didn't catch that 2014-08-01T20:50:38Z pjb: Try http://freenode.org/ to find channels, or /msg alis list * -topic *condit* 2014-08-01T20:50:42Z pjb: AirConFan: we're very strict too. 2014-08-01T20:50:55Z AirConFan: Thank you! 2014-08-01T20:51:09Z pjb: For less strict discussions, try #lispcafe or #emacs. 2014-08-01T20:51:57Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-01T20:53:11Z ggole quit 2014-08-01T20:53:35Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T20:53:49Z fikusz quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-01T20:54:04Z oGMo: isn't this a perfect opportunity to explore embedded lisp options? ;) 2014-08-01T20:56:37Z kristof joined #lisp 2014-08-01T20:56:54Z drinkcoffee joined #lisp 2014-08-01T20:57:04Z hugoduncan is now known as hugod 2014-08-01T21:01:04Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2014-08-01T21:01:50Z jasom: pjb: I gave a more formal definition of strings about 2 lines down from the one you responded to 2014-08-01T21:02:36Z jasom: pjb: if you want to be pedantic, strings are in fact arrays of characters, since vectors of characters are also arrays of characters, and not all vectors of characters are strings 2014-08-01T21:07:47Z fikusz joined #lisp 2014-08-01T21:07:56Z joe-w-bimedina quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2014-08-01T21:08:30Z erikc quit (Quit: erikc) 2014-08-01T21:09:51Z sohail joined #lisp 2014-08-01T21:12:52Z plastic-houses joined #lisp 2014-08-01T21:14:04Z Fare quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T21:17:17Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-01T21:17:41Z fikusz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-01T21:19:46Z fikusz joined #lisp 2014-08-01T21:20:02Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-08-01T21:20:35Z plastic-houses: web programming, ah the fun 2014-08-01T21:21:09Z duggiefresh quit 2014-08-01T21:26:41Z plastic-houses quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T21:32:24Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-08-01T21:35:39Z sz0 joined #lisp 2014-08-01T21:38:24Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2014-08-01T21:39:03Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T21:45:47Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 2014-08-01T21:52:56Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T21:54:58Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-01T21:56:43Z sykopomp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T21:57:17Z sykopomp joined #lisp 2014-08-01T21:57:55Z didi joined #lisp 2014-08-01T21:58:02Z jchochli_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T21:58:35Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-08-01T21:59:44Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-01T22:02:57Z Blaguvest quit 2014-08-01T22:03:26Z Sgeo joined #lisp 2014-08-01T22:03:30Z pierre1_ joined #lisp 2014-08-01T22:06:56Z sz0 quit (Quit: My computer has gone to sleep. 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A lot of hints are available: the key binding itself, the command name, the docsting… 2014-08-01T23:38:17Z jebes: did you use the actual character for an ellipses? 2014-08-01T23:38:50Z pjb: I've got a pjb-electric-ellipsis command ;-) 2014-08-01T23:38:52Z jasom: any mode that starts most commands with the same leader is a good hint to convert to a single leader as well (e.g. I've seen slime's C-c changed to something more vimlike) 2014-08-01T23:39:32Z stardiviner quit (Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/) 2014-08-01T23:39:48Z pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/+32K9 2014-08-01T23:39:52Z jebes: i wonder if emacs has any steno support... 2014-08-01T23:40:05Z pjb: that could be defined as an input method. 2014-08-01T23:41:56Z jebes: or some hackery with an aurdiono and an usb cable... 2014-08-01T23:42:03Z ThePhoeron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-01T23:42:29Z pjb: I've got a similar command that deals with space, for a keyboard that had a bad rebound on it. 2014-08-01T23:42:32Z antoszka: jasom: I've simply got an ellipse character in my custom keymap. 2014-08-01T23:43:43Z bsima joined #lisp 2014-08-01T23:44:09Z tertl3-laptop joined #lisp 2014-08-01T23:44:18Z ThePhoeron joined #lisp 2014-08-01T23:46:02Z jaimef quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-01T23:46:32Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2014-08-01T23:46:34Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-01T23:50:58Z bsima quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-01T23:51:57Z jaimef joined #lisp 2014-08-01T23:53:38Z smithzv: xb 2014-08-01T23:53:44Z smithzv: sorry... :/ 2014-08-01T23:59:31Z marsam is now known as marsbot 2014-08-01T23:59:58Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-08-02T00:03:02Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-02T00:04:33Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2014-08-02T00:07:50Z lduros quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-08-02T00:08:04Z tadni quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-02T00:10:30Z tadni joined #lisp 2014-08-02T00:14:04Z bend3r joined #lisp 2014-08-02T00:18:22Z tertl3-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-02T00:28:11Z askatasuna quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-02T00:31:51Z Fare joined #lisp 2014-08-02T00:34:01Z banjara joined #lisp 2014-08-02T00:34:21Z Fare is surprised to still have bugs to fix in cl-launch, but oh well, here they are. 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Logged into a remote machine now where i can replicate, but for the life if me I can’t see why it is trying to compile/load swank-asdf.lisp. 2014-08-02T03:34:59Z JuanDaugherty: diff loc? 2014-08-02T03:35:12Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-08-02T03:35:34Z gendl: diff loc? 2014-08-02T03:37:03Z gendl: this is with CCL. 2014-08-02T03:39:48Z JuanDaugherty: *loc/path 2014-08-02T03:40:09Z AirConFan quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-08-02T03:40:50Z gendl: JuanDaugherty: sorry, I don’t get it (if you’re talking to me) 2014-08-02T03:44:33Z krid joined #lisp 2014-08-02T03:46:40Z krid quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-02T03:47:53Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-08-02T04:04:10Z urandom_1 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-08-02T04:11:22Z khisanth_ joined #lisp 2014-08-02T04:13:03Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-02T04:13:58Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-02T04:14:27Z smithzv quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-02T04:14:39Z nydel quit 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archonix quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-02T10:32:11Z alexander-01 joined #lisp 2014-08-02T10:34:27Z alexander-01: how would I write my own version of and so that it could handle multiple inputs? .. I want to generalise a problem I am doing from common lisp a gentle introduction to symbolic computation 2014-08-02T10:35:04Z beach: Of AND? It already takes an arbitrary number of arguments. 2014-08-02T10:35:25Z alexander-01: beach: I want to write my own version 2014-08-02T10:35:44Z beach: Why? 2014-08-02T10:35:44Z alexander-01: beach: of and 2014-08-02T10:36:26Z beach: Why do you want to write your own version? 2014-08-02T10:36:28Z alexander-01: Im doing some exercises out of a book it uses an and usng two inputs .. just want to generalise it 2014-08-02T10:37:11Z davazp quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-02T10:37:36Z alexander-01: my long term goal is to write my own interpreter .. 2014-08-02T10:37:38Z GuilOooo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-02T10:37:59Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-08-02T10:38:06Z beach: alexander-01: AND is a macro. It can be written in terms of IF. 2014-08-02T10:38:20Z GuilOooo joined #lisp 2014-08-02T10:38:56Z beach: Do you just want to know the answer? 2014-08-02T10:40:01Z alexander-01: no I dont just want an answer .. a little understanding on my part would be nice .. I have a two input version of and using ifs but not multiples 2014-08-02T10:40:40Z jusss quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2014-08-02T10:41:37Z beach: You can do it recursively. For three arguments, if the first argument is false then the entire thing is false. Otherwise, it's the AND of the second and the third. 2014-08-02T10:41:44Z beach: You can generalize this to N arguments. 2014-08-02T10:42:06Z beach: Also, you need to handle zero arguments. (AND) => T 2014-08-02T10:42:19Z davazp joined #lisp 2014-08-02T10:43:01Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-08-02T10:44:10Z alexander-01: thanks beach you have helpes me out a lot I really appreciate it .. 2014-08-02T10:44:18Z alexander-01: helped 2014-08-02T10:44:25Z beach: Anytime! 2014-08-02T10:44:35Z alexander-01: cheers 2014-08-02T10:44:46Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-08-02T10:46:50Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-08-02T10:47:18Z theos joined #lisp 2014-08-02T10:47:52Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-02T10:49:01Z Lefeni joined #lisp 2014-08-02T10:49:31Z Vivitron quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-02T10:49:49Z Vivitron joined #lisp 2014-08-02T10:55:24Z Lwhite joined #lisp 2014-08-02T10:57:04Z loiclisp joined #lisp 2014-08-02T10:59:18Z Lwhite left #lisp 2014-08-02T11:02:15Z loiclisp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-02T11:03:45Z therik joined #lisp 2014-08-02T11:04:40Z jchochli quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-02T11:05:23Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-08-02T11:05:47Z alexander-01 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-02T11:07:32Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-08-02T11:11:41Z Lefeni quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-02T11:15:27Z jusss quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2014-08-02T11:16:24Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-08-02T11:17:33Z jdoolin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-02T11:18:08Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2014-08-02T11:20:11Z sohail joined #lisp 2014-08-02T11:27:19Z Lefeni joined #lisp 2014-08-02T11:33:57Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-02T11:35:50Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-08-02T11:36:12Z adlai: wouldn't it be simpler to recurse in the two input case? 2014-08-02T11:38:00Z zhangyh26258 joined #lisp 2014-08-02T11:38:58Z sohail quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-08-02T11:39:17Z zhangyh26258 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-08-02T11:39:53Z zhangyh26258 joined #lisp 2014-08-02T11:43:26Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2014-08-02T11:43:27Z dkcl: Do I need to specifically build SBCL with a certain flag to be able to make use of the SB-CONCURRENCY package? 2014-08-02T11:43:33Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-02T11:43:53Z dkcl: (use-package :sb-concurrency) can't find such a package 2014-08-02T11:46:29Z |3b|: (require 'sb-concurrency) first? 2014-08-02T11:47:17Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-02T11:48:03Z karswell joined #lisp 2014-08-02T11:48:48Z dkcl: |3b|: Ah, my bad, I forgot that bit. Thanks! 2014-08-02T11:52:21Z jusss quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2014-08-02T11:52:37Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-08-02T11:53:30Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-08-02T11:54:37Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-08-02T11:55:42Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-08-02T11:57:39Z jusss quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-02T11:58:26Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-08-02T12:00:15Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-08-02T12:00:22Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-02T12:03:19Z alexander-01 joined #lisp 2014-08-02T12:04:11Z Guest16884 joined #lisp 2014-08-02T12:04:22Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-02T12:04:47Z tesuji quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-02T12:05:15Z alexander-01: hey guys just finished trying to write an and procedure any chance someone can take a look at it and comment thanks http://pastebin.com/cAcB3G0K 2014-08-02T12:06:16Z yrk quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-02T12:06:23Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-02T12:10:11Z hitecnologys: alexander-01: a) (apply #' and- (cdr args)) isn't very good idea if the length of args is unknown or might be big. b) where did you learn to format code like *that*? c) (if foo bar nil) could easily be transformed into (when foo bar) 2014-08-02T12:11:27Z hitecnologys: alexander-01: d) nested IFs can also be replaced by COND. 2014-08-02T12:12:13Z alexander-01: hitechnologys: yeah my background is c .. thanks for the feedback 2014-08-02T12:12:22Z alexander-01: appreciated 2014-08-02T12:12:47Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-08-02T12:13:51Z alexander-01: just starting out learning some lisp so Im not familiar with all the details of the language just yet so using what I know to make something that works 2014-08-02T12:15:53Z hitecnologys: alexander-01: (defun and* (&rest clauses) (cond ((null clauses) t) ((car clauses) (apply #'and* (cdr clauses))))) 2014-08-02T12:16:11Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-02T12:16:55Z hitecnologys: But I feel uncomfortable because APPLY is still here. 2014-08-02T12:17:23Z alexander-01: what would I use instead of apply? 2014-08-02T12:17:53Z hitecnologys: It shouldn't cause any troubles in this specific case. 2014-08-02T12:18:40Z Gu_______ joined #lisp 2014-08-02T12:19:25Z Gu_______ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-08-02T12:19:27Z alexander-01: hitechnologys: thanks for the feedback 2014-08-02T12:20:08Z hitecnologys: Your autocomplete is failing. It's without H. 2014-08-02T12:21:05Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-08-02T12:21:13Z alexander-01: problems between seat and keyboard me thinks 2014-08-02T12:21:41Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-08-02T12:22:46Z hitecnologys: My observations suggest it's a common typo. Some people complain my nickname is spelled incorrectly, but it's not. It used to be an abbreviation of some sort. 2014-08-02T12:23:23Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-02T12:23:44Z Guthur`: alexander-01: with C vertical extra vertical whitespace is quite common, not so much with CL 2014-08-02T12:24:03Z Guthur`: no need to take newlines so often, but maybe it was a problem with you paste 2014-08-02T12:24:06Z Guthur`: your* 2014-08-02T12:24:14Z therik: what's the and* thing supposed to do 2014-08-02T12:25:09Z Guthur`: therik: it's just AND really, alexander-01 was just doing it as an exercise 2014-08-02T12:25:15Z alexander-01: Guthur: just tryinng to make it easy to read .. I havent read a lot of CL code so not sure on the conventions used .. 2014-08-02T12:25:19Z hitecnologys: therik: the same job AND does. 2014-08-02T12:25:22Z therik: Guthur`: ah 2014-08-02T12:25:27Z therik: but it doesn't short circuit 2014-08-02T12:25:37Z therik: clauses get evaled all 2014-08-02T12:25:53Z hitecnologys: Yes, AND* should probably be a macro. 2014-08-02T12:26:05Z jchochli quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-02T12:26:25Z hitecnologys: It was just an illustration of my complains about his nested IFs. 2014-08-02T12:26:32Z alexander-01: true ah .. havent started on macros yet 2014-08-02T12:26:54Z therik: I thought it was supposed to be eager and 2014-08-02T12:26:55Z Guthur`: alexander-01: sure, but it doesn't really help that much, look at the this version http://pastebin.com/fhpjVi2g 2014-08-02T12:27:10Z alexander-01: forgot about it shorting when it came across and failure 2014-08-02T12:27:25Z Guthur`: all i did was remove a few newlines 2014-08-02T12:27:37Z davazp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-02T12:28:28Z schjetne: Erlang seems to have a reasonable approach to distributed systems, and I see someone wrote a CL library to speak its protocol, CLERIC. Has anyone here used it? 2014-08-02T12:28:29Z Guthur`: therik has a good point in regards to the lack of short circuit 2014-08-02T12:28:44Z Guthur`: alexander-01: you should probably try adding that 2014-08-02T12:28:49Z alexander-01: going to have a go at that now yeah 2014-08-02T12:28:55Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-08-02T12:29:03Z therik: it can't be done without macros 2014-08-02T12:29:23Z alexander-01: thanks for the help guys .. be busy fo a while ^^ could be a long while ..:P 2014-08-02T12:30:22Z hitecnologys: therik: no, it can be: lambdas and lazy evaluation might help. But that's insanity. 2014-08-02T12:30:28Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-02T12:31:03Z alexander-01: thought I read somewhere that anything thats written using macros can be written without .. but more mickey mouse to do 2014-08-02T12:31:25Z JuanDaugherty: what does lazy eval in cl? 2014-08-02T12:32:06Z JuanDaugherty: i mean is there a standard/common feature/pkg? 2014-08-02T12:32:07Z hitecnologys: JuanDaugherty: lambdas. 2014-08-02T12:32:16Z JuanDaugherty: ah, OK 2014-08-02T12:32:30Z hitecnologys: You just funcall it when you need the value. 2014-08-02T12:32:42Z JuanDaugherty: was thinking automatic 2014-08-02T12:33:25Z JuanDaugherty: fully lazy, if you will 2014-08-02T12:33:39Z hitecnologys: If you combine them with memoization and write a few macros you can get pretty usable lazy evaluation. 2014-08-02T12:34:30Z hitecnologys: Then you modify reader to wrap everything you need automatically and there you go: Lazy Common Lisp. 2014-08-02T12:34:40Z JuanDaugherty: :) 2014-08-02T12:34:44Z therik: alexander-01: anything written using macros can as well be written using brainfuck ofc 2014-08-02T12:35:21Z zwer_y is now known as zwer 2014-08-02T12:35:38Z therik: hitecnologys: you mean to use it like (and* (lambda ..) (lambda ...) ... ) ? 2014-08-02T12:36:21Z hitecnologys: therik: yes. Possibly, with some macros that replace LAMBDA to make it look nicer. 2014-08-02T12:36:32Z therik: hitecnologys: :D 2014-08-02T12:37:56Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-02T12:39:40Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-08-02T12:39:41Z dkcl quit (Changing host) 2014-08-02T12:39:41Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-08-02T12:40:13Z lujun joined #lisp 2014-08-02T12:41:08Z lujun quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-02T12:42:33Z Guest_ joined #lisp 2014-08-02T12:43:41Z Guest_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-02T12:43:49Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-08-02T12:44:17Z Guest_ joined #lisp 2014-08-02T12:45:58Z zhangyh26258 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-02T12:46:32Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-08-02T12:47:47Z Guest_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-02T12:50:37Z lifeng quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2014-08-02T12:51:36Z alexander-01: so is this more along the lines of what I should be aiming for http://pastebin.com/ECy4mVMN 2014-08-02T12:51:38Z alexander-01: ? 2014-08-02T12:53:17Z hitecnologys: alexander-01: that's better, but also consider putting function arguments list on the same line as DEFUN. 2014-08-02T12:53:51Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-08-02T12:54:45Z alexander-01: ok 2014-08-02T12:55:04Z Xach: alexander-01: i'm a little late to the discussion, but I think part of the point is thinking about what happens when you have something like (and (alarms-are-going-off) (launch-missiles)) 2014-08-02T12:56:49Z therik: that's the second part, making it lazy 2014-08-02T12:56:57Z alexander-01: Xach: writing an and as part of an exercise Im reading through .. Ive extended the exercise to include multiple arguments .. the guys on here have been really helpfull in helping me out 2014-08-02T12:57:12Z Xach: OK 2014-08-02T12:57:51Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2014-08-02T12:58:32Z hitecnologys: alexander-01: just don't turn into this joe-w-bimedina guy: don't ask about something without thinking and trying first. 2014-08-02T13:00:14Z alexander-01: Im always worried I have missed something before I come online and ask for help .. someones gonna see something I should have seen already .. 2014-08-02T13:00:56Z alexander-01: so I appreciate the help you guys have given because I know you dont have too 2014-08-02T13:01:22Z alexander-01: I am keen to learn though 2014-08-02T13:01:52Z DataLinkDroid quit (Quit: Disconnecting -- bye) 2014-08-02T13:02:00Z Xach: alexander-01: it can go too far, though -- like when someone who has lost the easy path asks for help with cutting down trees, rather than how to get back to the road 2014-08-02T13:03:55Z alexander-01: Im sure if I play diva you guys will put me in place .. 2014-08-02T13:04:41Z alexander-01: I actually want to be on your good side so I can come and ask questions .. makes sense .. 2014-08-02T13:06:44Z joe-w-bimedina joined #lisp 2014-08-02T13:10:23Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-08-02T13:12:38Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-08-02T13:13:33Z GuilOooo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-02T13:13:43Z sohail joined #lisp 2014-08-02T13:13:52Z Ayey_ joined #lisp 2014-08-02T13:15:06Z GuilOooo joined #lisp 2014-08-02T13:15:55Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-08-02T13:21:38Z alexander-01 left #lisp 2014-08-02T13:23:46Z bjorkintosh quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-02T13:24:38Z Lefeni quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-02T13:24:47Z bit` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-02T13:25:34Z joe-w-bimedina: is there anyway to change the size of a type I created, with define-foreign-type, I have matrix objects inside a pointer I allocated with foreign-alloc and gave to a function and when I am trying to get them out of the pointer returned by the function by dereferencing with mem-ref only one is there, I think if I could change the default size of :pointer to other than 8 I could get them? 2014-08-02T13:25:36Z Fare changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language logs:|contact op if muted| New: cl-launch 4.0.8, ASDF 3.1.3, SBCL 1.2.1, yason 0.6.6, hunchentoot 1.2.27 2014-08-02T13:25:58Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-02T13:28:26Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2014-08-02T13:28:47Z hitecnologys: Byt the way, SBCL 1.2.2 came out. Why the topic hasn't been updated? 2014-08-02T13:29:14Z hitecnologys: s/Byt/By/ 2014-08-02T13:32:00Z Xach: hitecnologys: nobody did it. 2014-08-02T13:35:59Z schjetne: BERT-RPC seems to fit my requirements for an RPC protocol quite nicely, the question is what takes more time, reverse-engineer CLERIC or learn Erlang and re-write my entire program in it. 2014-08-02T13:36:00Z Quasus quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2014-08-02T13:36:15Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-08-02T13:38:33Z hitecnologys: schjetne: I'd rather rewrite the thing in Erlang if it's not too big. Eralng is quite nice language. 2014-08-02T13:39:29Z Quasus joined #lisp 2014-08-02T13:40:33Z bit` joined #lisp 2014-08-02T13:40:48Z hitecnologys: Xach: of course, it was more like a notification than an actual question. 2014-08-02T13:41:22Z schjetne: hitecnologys: I like the ideas behind Erlang, but I don't think I can learn it to the point of writing production code in a matter of weeks. I prefer to keep using Common Lisp 2014-08-02T13:42:00Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-02T13:42:22Z hitecnologys: schjetne: if it's something for actual use, then I'd stick to CL too. 2014-08-02T13:42:26Z dkcl: Green threads, please 2014-08-02T13:42:35Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-02T13:44:19Z atgreen` joined #lisp 2014-08-02T13:44:44Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-08-02T13:45:16Z schjetne: I wish the library was documented so I knew if it was complete enough to be worth the trouble. Otherwise I'll just use RESTAS and use HTTP for everything. 2014-08-02T13:45:45Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-02T13:46:18Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-02T13:52:00Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-08-02T13:52:13Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-02T13:53:55Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-08-02T13:58:24Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-02T13:58:48Z atgreen` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-02T14:03:23Z schjetne: Sometimes reimplementing libraries is easier than reverse-engineering and documenting existing ones. But what good does that do for the community? 2014-08-02T14:05:14Z Xach: Reimplement it with docs. 2014-08-02T14:06:48Z schjetne: Too bad for the existing users who miss out on the improvements 2014-08-02T14:07:11Z Guthur` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-02T14:07:21Z Guthur joined #lisp 2014-08-02T14:09:52Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-08-02T14:14:34Z Guest16884 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-02T14:14:38Z jchochli quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-02T14:18:42Z jebes quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-02T14:20:15Z JuanDaugherty quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-02T14:21:48Z joast quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-02T14:28:11Z wbooze joined #lisp 2014-08-02T14:28:35Z wbooze is now known as Guest78497 2014-08-02T14:31:02Z joast joined #lisp 2014-08-02T14:34:27Z AdmiralBumbleBee quit (Quit: AdmiralBumbleBee) 2014-08-02T14:34:38Z Guest78497 quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2014-08-02T14:36:25Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-02T14:37:23Z harish_ joined #lisp 2014-08-02T14:44:22Z jleija joined #lisp 2014-08-02T14:49:12Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-02T14:51:15Z Quasus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-02T14:53:15Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-02T14:55:52Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-02T14:56:11Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-08-02T14:56:24Z Quasus joined #lisp 2014-08-02T14:59:50Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-08-02T15:04:26Z Rptx joined #lisp 2014-08-02T15:05:37Z Rptx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-02T15:06:12Z lq joined #lisp 2014-08-02T15:07:16Z Longlius quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-02T15:07:16Z Rptx joined #lisp 2014-08-02T15:08:43Z Guthur quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-08-02T15:08:51Z Guthur` joined #lisp 2014-08-02T15:09:21Z Rptx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-02T15:09:55Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-08-02T15:14:57Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-02T15:17:04Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-08-02T15:18:00Z joe-w-bimedina: is there a way to write this as a double-float without using coerce or anything like that to convert it: 1.e-4 2014-08-02T15:18:01Z ikki joined #lisp 2014-08-02T15:18:58Z stassats: define "write as a double-float" 2014-08-02T15:19:31Z joe-w-bimedina: like 1.e-4d0 or 1.d0e-4 2014-08-02T15:19:54Z stassats: 1d-4 2014-08-02T15:21:16Z Longlius joined #lisp 2014-08-02T15:22:02Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-08-02T15:23:52Z Rptx joined #lisp 2014-08-02T15:24:17Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-08-02T15:26:42Z joe-w-bimedina: sorry about that I had something on the stove, ok so does the e actually mean single-float, I thought it was some representation of "close to 0" 2014-08-02T15:26:55Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks btw:) 2014-08-02T15:26:59Z stassats: it does not 2014-08-02T15:27:22Z nipra quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-02T15:27:23Z attila_lendvai quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-02T15:28:18Z joe-w-bimedina: interesting, ok, I do appreciate the info:) 2014-08-02T15:28:44Z stassats: here is where you should ask "what does it mean then?" 2014-08-02T15:29:42Z joe-w-bimedina: oh I didnt want to take up your time, but if its ok then * 2014-08-02T15:30:00Z stassats: it means whatever the value of *read-default-float-format* 2014-08-02T15:30:54Z joe-w-bimedina: so is that 1 to the -4th power? 2014-08-02T15:31:30Z stassats: that would be 1, wouldn't it? 2014-08-02T15:31:40Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-08-02T15:32:23Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-02T15:32:31Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-02T15:33:10Z rptx-slack joined #lisp 2014-08-02T15:33:21Z karswell joined #lisp 2014-08-02T15:33:32Z rptx-slack quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-02T15:34:01Z joe-w-bimedina: oh yeah... well I know that number is really clos to zero at least 2014-08-02T15:34:41Z stassats: mathematically, the only number that is really close to zero is 0 2014-08-02T15:35:14Z stassats: and in machine float numbers, 0.0001 isn't really that close 2014-08-02T15:35:39Z joe-w-bimedina: really even (+ 0 .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001)...why is that? 2014-08-02T15:36:01Z Rptx quit (Quit: testing) 2014-08-02T15:36:32Z stassats: there is an infinite amount of numbers between 0 and 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 2014-08-02T15:37:26Z joe-w-bimedina: are you refferring to other dimensions?, and again, if its to much trouble... 2014-08-02T15:38:33Z |3b|: it isn't so much trouble as math 2014-08-02T15:39:05Z stassats: well, can you think of a largest number? that same logic applies here 2014-08-02T15:41:00Z hitecnologys: Well, largest number is ∞. What we don't have is "most close to zero number". 2014-08-02T15:41:11Z Guthur` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-02T15:41:16Z joe-w-bimedina: oh yeah because the decimals can extend until infinity right? 2014-08-02T15:41:26Z Guthur joined #lisp 2014-08-02T15:41:29Z |3b|: well, if that is a 'largest number', 1/that is smallest 2014-08-02T15:41:39Z |3b|: it isn't really a number though 2014-08-02T15:41:59Z hitecnologys: Hm, I didn't thought of that trick. 2014-08-02T15:42:13Z hitecnologys: But yeah, it's not really a number. 2014-08-02T15:42:22Z |3b|: and then divide it by 2 to get a smaller number 2014-08-02T15:42:23Z stassats: |3b|: well, that would be 0, wouldn't it? 2014-08-02T15:42:39Z |3b|: stassats: ok, subtract 1 first :p 2014-08-02T15:43:17Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-08-02T15:43:42Z alexey joined #lisp 2014-08-02T15:44:14Z stassats: and to add, 1e-4 means 1.0 * 10^-4 2014-08-02T15:44:25Z p_l joined #lisp 2014-08-02T15:44:55Z joe-w-bimedina: what does the ^ mean? 2014-08-02T15:45:26Z stassats: start of the line^Uexponent 2014-08-02T15:46:01Z ggole: O_o 2014-08-02T15:46:09Z |3b| likes that you used a 3rd meaning there :p 2014-08-02T15:46:19Z hitecnologys: stassats: hey! I'm trying to eat here! 2014-08-02T15:48:08Z nipra quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-02T15:48:19Z joe-w-bimedina: ok so 1 times 10 to the -4th power 2014-08-02T15:49:10Z stassats: don't they teach that at school? 2014-08-02T15:50:29Z joe-w-bimedina: if I knew how much better it made programming I would have focused, do you know of an introductory book that would teach me how to understand the math equations I see in NN and Cv algorithms? 2014-08-02T15:51:03Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: try Wikipedia. Works for me. 2014-08-02T15:51:20Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-08-02T15:52:35Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: also, Google contains much information on this topic. You might want to give it a try too. 2014-08-02T15:53:07Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-02T15:54:03Z stassats: you can even google "1e-4 =" 2014-08-02T15:55:06Z joe-w-bimedina: ok, thanks for all that info hitecnologys: , strassats: and 3b: I really appreciate it:) 2014-08-02T15:56:10Z hitecnologys: It's interesting how DuckDuckGo tries to interpret e as Euler's number in 1e-4. 2014-08-02T15:57:26Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-02T15:58:12Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-08-02T16:01:08Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-08-02T16:01:41Z rszeno joined #lisp 2014-08-02T16:03:07Z jchochli quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-02T16:03:22Z jchochl__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-02T16:03:23Z banjara joined #lisp 2014-08-02T16:04:59Z isBEKaml_mobile joined #lisp 2014-08-02T16:05:38Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2014-08-02T16:07:52Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-02T16:08:02Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-02T16:09:15Z alexey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-02T16:09:46Z foreignFunction joined #lisp 2014-08-02T16:17:03Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-08-02T16:18:39Z Rptx joined #lisp 2014-08-02T16:21:45Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2014-08-02T16:22:22Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2014-08-02T16:23:13Z Guthur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-02T16:24:29Z codeburg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-02T16:25:03Z codeburg joined #lisp 2014-08-02T16:25:08Z jdz: there's also wolfram alpha 2014-08-02T16:25:49Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-02T16:26:25Z dkcl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-02T16:26:30Z dandersen joined #lisp 2014-08-02T16:26:48Z hitecnologys: Indeed. 2014-08-02T16:26:56Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2014-08-02T16:28:16Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-08-02T16:28:37Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-02T16:31:33Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-08-02T16:33:11Z nalbyuites joined #lisp 2014-08-02T16:33:22Z dandersen is now known as dkcl 2014-08-02T16:34:37Z Rptx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-02T16:34:51Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-02T16:39:07Z Ayey_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-02T16:42:08Z sohail quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-08-02T16:44:59Z lq quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-02T16:46:58Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2014-08-02T16:49:21Z spaghetonfire is now known as spockokt 2014-08-02T16:53:57Z Fare changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language logs:|contact op if muted| New: cl-launch 4.0.8, SBCL 1.2.2, ASDF 3.1.3, yason 0.6.6, hunchentoot 1.2.27 2014-08-02T16:54:15Z stassats: Fare: so, ASDF 3.1.3 is good? 2014-08-02T16:54:45Z Fare: I believe so 2014-08-02T16:54:57Z stassats: i'll update SBCL to it then 2014-08-02T16:55:07Z Fare: thanks 2014-08-02T16:55:14Z ssake quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-08-02T16:55:16Z Fare: mind that the bundle-op's have been renamed 2014-08-02T16:55:23Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2014-08-02T16:55:33Z stassats: what should i mind? 2014-08-02T16:55:37Z Fare: you can apply my patch from https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1267006 2014-08-02T16:55:48Z Fare: in the contrib 2014-08-02T16:56:01Z Fare: you shouldn't build them with fasl-op anymore but with compile-bundle-op 2014-08-02T16:56:24Z Fare: the backward compatibility with fasl-op is insufficient and lacking a proper output-files method. Oops, my bad. 2014-08-02T16:56:32Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2014-08-02T16:56:48Z Fare: rpgoldman has decided to junk the old names altogether in the future 3.1.4 2014-08-02T16:56:51Z stassats: ok, i see that that patch updates asdf too 2014-08-02T16:57:44Z Fare: I have a contrib that restore compatibility including with the output-files method, but it's not in the master branch yet, even less released, and won't be part of asdf itself. 2014-08-02T16:59:02Z Fare hopes 3.1.4 gets released before LispWorks releases its next version, because there's a bug in uiop:getcwd for LispWorks. 2014-08-02T17:02:48Z tesuji joined #lisp 2014-08-02T17:03:33Z mrSpec quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-08-02T17:04:45Z banjara quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-02T17:05:17Z Ayey_ joined #lisp 2014-08-02T17:05:23Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-02T17:05:27Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-02T17:07:08Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-08-02T17:07:46Z fmu quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-02T17:08:03Z Guest44207 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-02T17:08:45Z isBEKaml_mobile quit (Quit: Bye) 2014-08-02T17:09:00Z fmu joined #lisp 2014-08-02T17:09:32Z nipra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-02T17:09:52Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-08-02T17:10:33Z Ayey_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-02T17:13:36Z manuel__ quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-08-02T17:16:22Z fmu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-02T17:19:01Z fmu joined #lisp 2014-08-02T17:19:18Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-08-02T17:20:27Z micro` joined #lisp 2014-08-02T17:20:50Z micro` is now known as Guest8063 2014-08-02T17:23:39Z sykopomp quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-02T17:23:40Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2014-08-02T17:26:55Z optikalmouse joined #lisp 2014-08-02T17:30:57Z ikki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-02T17:31:03Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2014-08-02T17:33:59Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-02T17:35:40Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-08-02T17:36:33Z ikki joined #lisp 2014-08-02T17:36:51Z sykopomp joined #lisp 2014-08-02T17:38:18Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-08-02T17:43:34Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-08-02T17:46:28Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-08-02T17:46:55Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-08-02T17:48:40Z Xach: stassats: asdf 3.1.3 is a major change from sbcl's 3.0.2 2014-08-02T17:48:55Z jessup joined #lisp 2014-08-02T17:50:12Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-08-02T17:50:59Z k-stz joined #lisp 2014-08-02T17:51:02Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-02T17:54:03Z mmq_ joined #lisp 2014-08-02T17:54:34Z stassats: Xach: is that good or bad? 2014-08-02T17:55:43Z mmq joined #lisp 2014-08-02T17:56:09Z mmq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-02T17:56:09Z mmq_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-02T17:56:10Z Xach: stassats: I have software that works on 3.0.x but breaks on 3.1.x. Perhaps it is my impure spirit. 2014-08-02T17:56:54Z Fare: sbcl's 3.0.2 is over one year old 2014-08-02T17:56:59Z Xach: stassats: I don't think it is necessarily bad to upgrade, but that it is more likely to get software breakage than e.g. upgrading to 3.0.3 2014-08-02T17:57:01Z Fare: Xach: what breaks? 2014-08-02T17:57:18Z Xach: Fare: The software the builds Quicklisp. 2014-08-02T17:58:03Z Fare: because of the way you handle *system-definition-search-functions* ? 2014-08-02T17:58:21Z Xach: Yes. 2014-08-02T17:58:34Z jessup quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-08-02T17:58:50Z Xach: Or the way that package-defined-system depends on the state of that list, depending on how you look at it. 2014-08-02T17:59:52Z Fare: it depends on being present in that list -- is there some further dependency that is problematic? 2014-08-02T18:00:21Z Xach: I don't know. I don't test 3.1.x. 2014-08-02T18:00:48Z ehu_ joined #lisp 2014-08-02T18:01:03Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-02T18:01:10Z stassats: Xach: well, i've been postponing the updates for quite some time, waiting for things to right themselves 2014-08-02T18:01:58Z Fare: abcl, ccl have already upgraded to 3.1 2014-08-02T18:02:09Z Xach: stassats: I suppose it depends on how you feel about effectively making SBCL the testbed for changes in ASDF. 2014-08-02T18:02:20Z Xach: SBCL is the most popular and widespread implementation and people seem to upgrade it regularly. 2014-08-02T18:03:29Z Fare: abcl and ccl look happy with it. gendl looks happy. cl-test-grid looks happy on sbcl, ccl, clisp, and more 2014-08-02T18:03:31Z Xach should compile the stats for sbcl versions from quicklisp logs 2014-08-02T18:03:49Z Ayey_ joined #lisp 2014-08-02T18:03:49Z Xach: Until 3.1.3 last week it broke Quicklisp. 2014-08-02T18:03:53Z stassats: Xach: i don't feel bad about making users test things 2014-08-02T18:03:57Z spockokt is now known as dogs_on_fire 2014-08-02T18:03:59Z Xach: People didn't notice because fewer people use it. 2014-08-02T18:04:06Z Xach: stassats: Ok. 2014-08-02T18:04:13Z stassats: the lot doesn't test things enough 2014-08-02T18:04:18Z Xach: Very true. 2014-08-02T18:04:23Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-02T18:04:26Z Fare: Xach: new breakage in 3.1.3? As compared to 3.1.2? to 3.0.3? to 3.0.2 ? 2014-08-02T18:05:02Z Xach: Fare: 3.1.2 was broken in a way that 3.0.x was not. I don't know about earlier 3.1.x's. 2014-08-02T18:05:24Z Xach: 3.1.3 works. And Quicklisp adapted to 3.1.2 anyway. 2014-08-02T18:05:28Z Fare: the cl-test-grid results were un-breakage with 3.1.3 (mainly because of some recent versions of my packages depending on a recent uiop, i suppose) 2014-08-02T18:05:49Z Fare: 3.1.2 was the first official 3.1 release 2014-08-02T18:05:59Z Fare: 3.1.0.x were development, and 3.1.1 was aborted. 2014-08-02T18:07:21Z Fare: 3.1.3 is a bug fix release since 3.1.2. 2014-08-02T18:07:39Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-08-02T18:07:47Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-08-02T18:08:59Z Ayey_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-02T18:10:02Z alexey joined #lisp 2014-08-02T18:10:47Z beach left #lisp 2014-08-02T18:12:00Z ARM9 joined #lisp 2014-08-02T18:12:28Z banjara joined #lisp 2014-08-02T18:14:23Z alexey quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-02T18:16:51Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-08-02T18:17:32Z Anarch quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-02T18:18:24Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-02T18:19:17Z Anarch joined #lisp 2014-08-02T18:22:06Z stassats: ok, 3.1.3 is in 2014-08-02T18:22:10Z stassats: let the testing commence 2014-08-02T18:23:35Z stassats: and just because i was too lazy to make my own patch, the uiop split (whatever that means) also happened, to which i was opposed previously 2014-08-02T18:24:43Z Xach builds & builds 2014-08-02T18:25:39Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-02T18:25:39Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-02T18:29:20Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2014-08-02T18:31:02Z manuel___ joined #lisp 2014-08-02T18:31:08Z nipra quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-02T18:32:32Z ikki_ joined #lisp 2014-08-02T18:32:53Z ikki quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-02T18:34:06Z Fare: it just means you can (require "uiop") without it pulling in asdf. 2014-08-02T18:34:09Z Fare: mkcl can do that, too 2014-08-02T18:34:37Z Fare: but (require "asdf") pulls in "uiop", of course. 2014-08-02T18:34:39Z drmeister: Implemented new calling convention - passes arguments on the stack using registers and varargs rather than heap allocated frames. Startup time is down from 7.5 seconds to 5.2 seconds. Yay. 2014-08-02T18:34:41Z pdponze joined #lisp 2014-08-02T18:35:01Z Fare: drmeister, are you still compiling the compiler at every startup? 2014-08-02T18:35:40Z GuilOooo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-02T18:35:45Z Fare: and how far did you go at porting asdf to clasp? 2014-08-02T18:36:08Z drmeister: Fare: No, I never compiled the compiler at startup. I wasn't very clear before. 2014-08-02T18:36:36Z Fare: oh. So what does it do that takes 5.2 seconds? 2014-08-02T18:37:02Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2014-08-02T18:37:02Z Fare: stassats, thanks a lot! 2014-08-02T18:37:24Z GuilOooo joined #lisp 2014-08-02T18:37:38Z drmeister: I got all of asdf to load but I needed to implement DIRECTORY and a couple of other OS interacting functions. Then for some reason I decided to reimplement my calling convention. At some point a yak and a razor where involved - details are fuzzy. But I sped everything up almost 2x. I'm back to working on DIRECTORY and then asdf. 2014-08-02T18:39:38Z drmeister: The 5.2 seconds is to evaluate every defparameter/defvar/defun/defmethod/defclass from a bare bones lisp system to a full Common Lisp system. Yes, it's a little pokey - I still have to put some time into figuring out exactly what it's doing. 2014-08-02T18:41:19Z drmeister: It's running native, compiled code. But every top level form in the 70-odd ECL and Clasp Common Lisp source files has to be evaluated every time the system starts up. 2014-08-02T18:41:19Z banjara quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-02T18:42:26Z Fare: can't you precompile them? dump a fasl, or dump the image? 2014-08-02T18:42:44Z Fare: do you have fasls? 2014-08-02T18:43:11Z Fare: (couldn't you keep ecl's implementation of directory?) 2014-08-02T18:43:49Z drmeister: Fare: I have fasls but it's like ECL - I have create-system but not dump-system. 2014-08-02T18:44:02Z pdponze quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-02T18:44:05Z pdponze_ joined #lisp 2014-08-02T18:44:05Z pdponze_ is now known as pdponze 2014-08-02T18:44:43Z Fare: can't you create-system after you're done with those 70-odd files? 2014-08-02T18:44:51Z drmeister: I am taking ecl's implementation of directory and translating it into C++ (retaining attribution of course). I did the same with the pathname functions. They are so convoluted that it's safer to start from a working algorithm. 2014-08-02T18:45:05Z Fare: fsvo "working" 2014-08-02T18:45:20Z Fare: this whole part of the standard stinks. 2014-08-02T18:46:41Z drmeister: Less broken than what I would get if I started from the CLHS description and tried to reimplement it. The pathname functions have an large number of corner cases. 2014-08-02T18:47:05Z drmeister: Or rather, they follow convoluted logic based on argument settings. 2014-08-02T18:47:42Z drmeister: Also, since I'm pretending my system is ECL (:ECL *feature* is defined for asdf and other libraries) its best if I reproduce ECL's quirks. 2014-08-02T18:48:28Z drmeister: I need to run. I'll be back later. 2014-08-02T18:48:30Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-08-02T18:49:48Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-02T18:50:23Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-08-02T18:54:30Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-02T18:56:57Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-08-02T18:59:30Z Ayey_ joined #lisp 2014-08-02T19:02:51Z manuel___ quit (Quit: manuel___) 2014-08-02T19:04:37Z nug700 joined #lisp 2014-08-02T19:07:31Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2014-08-02T19:07:37Z banjara joined #lisp 2014-08-02T19:10:38Z wizzo quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-08-02T19:11:59Z banjara quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-02T19:16:35Z Ralt joined #lisp 2014-08-02T19:17:22Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-02T19:18:53Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2014-08-02T19:19:22Z hitecnologys quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-02T19:26:39Z mrSpec quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-02T19:29:23Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2014-08-02T19:29:53Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-08-02T19:32:13Z nydel joined #lisp 2014-08-02T19:33:49Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-08-02T19:34:48Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-08-02T19:37:45Z GuilOooo_ joined #lisp 2014-08-02T19:37:47Z banjara joined #lisp 2014-08-02T19:38:52Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-02T19:40:36Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2014-08-02T19:41:18Z GuilOooo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-02T19:42:04Z banjara quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-02T19:42:34Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-08-02T19:44:24Z nalbyuites quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-02T19:46:25Z tajjada joined #lisp 2014-08-02T19:49:51Z ggole quit 2014-08-02T19:55:04Z pdponze quit (Quit: pdponze) 2014-08-02T19:55:16Z paddymahoney quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-02T19:56:42Z pdponze joined #lisp 2014-08-02T19:56:46Z nalbyuites joined #lisp 2014-08-02T19:58:56Z pdponze quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-02T19:59:53Z pdponze joined #lisp 2014-08-02T20:00:19Z mr-foobar: any one using cells ? 2014-08-02T20:01:34Z tadni quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-02T20:02:16Z JuanDaugherty: you mean the dataflow thing 2014-08-02T20:03:13Z JuanDaugherty: the answer would appear to be critcially, no. Otherwise it wouldn't maybe have languished. 2014-08-02T20:03:33Z ikki__ joined #lisp 2014-08-02T20:05:03Z tadni joined #lisp 2014-08-02T20:06:02Z Fare: there are plenty other dataflow things 2014-08-02T20:06:08Z JuanDaugherty: dataflow lisp things is not singleton 2014-08-02T20:06:27Z ikki_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-02T20:07:07Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2014-08-02T20:08:31Z Rptx` joined #lisp 2014-08-02T20:11:00Z alexey joined #lisp 2014-08-02T20:11:35Z Rptx` is now known as Rptx 2014-08-02T20:15:11Z alexey quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-02T20:16:41Z nydel quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-02T20:19:52Z cmack joined #lisp 2014-08-02T20:21:03Z Vivitron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-02T20:30:03Z JuanDaugherty: think I may have asked that in the past mr-foobar , so logs may have something 2014-08-02T20:32:22Z mr-foobar: JuanDaugherty: oh ! I was a bit inspired by cells for my framework -- http://lexical.foobar.systems/rdp.html 2014-08-02T20:32:57Z mr-foobar: are there any other data flow frameworks for lisp ? 2014-08-02T20:34:01Z ARM9 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-02T20:34:05Z JuanDaugherty: by 迁 you mean move/shift? 2014-08-02T20:34:17Z JuanDaugherty: flow, oder? 2014-08-02T20:34:39Z JuanDaugherty: Fare and I did aver it 2014-08-02T20:35:15Z JuanDaugherty: mehbe we're talking out of something other than our mouf 2014-08-02T20:35:21Z kristof joined #lisp 2014-08-02T20:36:27Z mr-foobar: JuanDaugherty: yeah, move 2014-08-02T20:37:09Z mr-foobar: it's the closest kanji I could find, that resembled a circuit :) 2014-08-02T20:38:46Z banjara joined #lisp 2014-08-02T20:39:04Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-08-02T20:39:28Z Fare: have you seen reactive demand programming? 2014-08-02T20:39:37Z kristof: what? 2014-08-02T20:39:38Z Ayey_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-02T20:39:45Z kristof: Is that another trendy paradigm? 2014-08-02T20:40:13Z Fare still has precious little idea what exactly to demo two weeks from now at ILC 2014 in Montreal 2014-08-02T20:40:24Z Fare: I know it will use cl-launch, but then what? 2014-08-02T20:40:41Z Fare: I haven't written anything but release scripts, lately. 2014-08-02T20:41:25Z JuanDaugherty notes this as point of awareness of homonymy of 备 with my drupal pkg 2014-08-02T20:41:25Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-08-02T20:42:01Z lisp-newcomer quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-08-02T20:42:20Z JuanDaugherty: sounds like lazy 2014-08-02T20:42:52Z banjara quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-02T20:43:01Z JuanDaugherty: or maybe a user - somethng 2014-08-02T20:43:19Z JuanDaugherty: i.e. "demand programming" does 2014-08-02T20:43:47Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-02T20:44:27Z Fare: yes, it's the "lazy" variant of reactive programming 2014-08-02T20:44:33Z Fare: also, continuous 2014-08-02T20:44:56Z kristof: I can't imagine that would be good for real-time systems. 2014-08-02T20:45:27Z mr-foobar: i tried to model mine for reactive systems 2014-08-02T20:45:37Z mr-foobar: *real-time 2014-08-02T20:45:39Z stassats: i'll call my paradigm turbo-prop programming 2014-08-02T20:46:54Z kristof: Yes. 2014-08-02T20:46:59Z kristof: Oh! Wrong channel. 2014-08-02T20:47:06Z stassats: (though, that doesn't really work with english) 2014-08-02T20:47:29Z mr-foobar: Fare: fuck, i may need to change my libs name :/ 2014-08-02T20:47:39Z mr-foobar: they are using rdp as well 2014-08-02T20:47:49Z pjb joined #lisp 2014-08-02T20:48:12Z pjb is now known as Guest74580 2014-08-02T20:49:11Z Guest74580 is now known as pjb` 2014-08-02T20:49:25Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2014-08-02T20:49:27Z Fare: :-) 2014-08-02T20:50:14Z mr-foobar: If haskell is 1, my goal is to be -1 2014-08-02T20:50:54Z dogs_on_fire: machine language? 2014-08-02T20:50:54Z mr-foobar: how funny, that we share our names :) 2014-08-02T20:51:04Z dogs_on_fire is now known as spockokt 2014-08-02T20:51:38Z mr-foobar: nah bread board programming 2014-08-02T20:52:46Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-08-02T20:53:03Z mr-foobar: High Level Frameworks come with a promise, and just that sometimes, of productivity improvement without any mention of debugging. 2014-08-02T20:53:24Z mr-foobar: <-- what I wrote, and that is exactly true for the other rdp 2014-08-02T20:53:46Z zacts joined #lisp 2014-08-02T20:53:53Z zacts: hi lispy lispers 2014-08-02T20:55:58Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-02T20:56:52Z a13x15 joined #lisp 2014-08-02T21:01:49Z zhangyh26258 joined #lisp 2014-08-02T21:01:56Z Patzy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-02T21:02:04Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-08-02T21:04:21Z zhangyh26258 quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-02T21:08:27Z argen2 joined #lisp 2014-08-02T21:09:01Z JuanDaugherty: hi zacts ; 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brand new to CL; am wanting to use slime + evil-mode; any guidance here on setups, etc, would be very helpful; preliminary searches haven’t found much…yet 2014-08-02T23:00:49Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-02T23:01:20Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-08-02T23:02:31Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-08-02T23:06:25Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-02T23:11:08Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-08-02T23:11:41Z Vivitron joined #lisp 2014-08-02T23:11:52Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-02T23:12:10Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-08-02T23:12:48Z JuanDaugherty: you mean using after you install? There's marco barringer's video 2014-08-02T23:15:26Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-02T23:16:43Z blahzik: well i have evil-mode and slime installed fine; but there seem to be conflicting key bindings between evil-mode and slime; 2014-08-02T23:17:24Z blahzik: also, i’m using sbcl on ubuntu 2014-08-02T23:19:23Z JuanDaugherty: if evil-mode is what it appears to be, an vi i/f for emacs, ... . 2014-08-02T23:20:41Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-02T23:21:07Z blahzik: yes, that’s what it is; i envy emacs people right about now :) but vi bindings is what i need to use 2014-08-02T23:23:13Z JuanDaugherty: k, there's prolly something direct vi-ish, someone else will maybe comment, it's a well populated channel 2014-08-02T23:24:08Z JuanDaugherty: you might wanna look at scheme too, I think it's more consistent with vi 2014-08-02T23:24:35Z blahzik: will do regarding scheme; thank you for responding; will keep a lookout 2014-08-02T23:25:21Z AdmiralBumbleBee joined #lisp 2014-08-02T23:25:42Z JuanDaugherty: np, forgot i knew what that was btw 2014-08-02T23:26:06Z eazar001 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-02T23:27:27Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2014-08-02T23:28:12Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2014-08-02T23:28:26Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-08-02T23:28:44Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-02T23:30:56Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2014-08-02T23:32:10Z dandersen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-02T23:32:33Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-08-02T23:34:08Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-08-02T23:35:14Z Fare: cl-launch now has a regular man page, extracted from markdown with md2man 2014-08-02T23:40:22Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2014-08-02T23:44:51Z kristof joined #lisp 2014-08-02T23:45:05Z jmc75 joined #lisp 2014-08-02T23:45:11Z Guthur joined #lisp 2014-08-02T23:45:30Z jmc75 quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-02T23:45:32Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2014-08-02T23:46:09Z jmc75 joined #lisp 2014-08-02T23:47:48Z Fare changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language logs:|contact op if muted| New: cl-launch 4.0.8.1, SBCL 1.2.2, ASDF 3.1.3, yason 0.6.6, hunchentoot 1.2.27 2014-08-02T23:47:54Z jmc75 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-02T23:48:47Z jmc75 joined #lisp 2014-08-02T23:49:31Z fe[nl]ix: Fare: you don't need 4 levels of a version spec 2014-08-02T23:50:50Z Fare: ? 2014-08-02T23:51:24Z Fare: fe[nl]ix, any chances of seeing you in Montreal? 2014-08-02T23:51:40Z kristof: Who's responsible for recording the videos this year? 2014-08-02T23:52:00Z fe[nl]ix: Fare: very little 2014-08-02T23:52:13Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2014-08-02T23:56:24Z jmc75 quit (Quit: Lingo - http://www.lingoirc.com) 2014-08-02T23:56:58Z pierre1_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-02T23:58:05Z plastic-houses joined #lisp 2014-08-03T00:01:14Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-08-03T00:01:44Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-08-03T00:02:44Z wizzo joined #lisp 2014-08-03T00:02:51Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2014-08-03T00:03:12Z pgomes quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-03T00:04:45Z MrWoohoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T00:05:45Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2014-08-03T00:05:58Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-03T00:06:02Z JuanDaugherty quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-03T00:06:52Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-03T00:08:40Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T00:12:43Z alexey joined #lisp 2014-08-03T00:16:37Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-08-03T00:17:03Z alexey quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-03T00:17:37Z pierre1_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T00:20:52Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-03T00:21:39Z Ralt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T00:22:28Z MrWoohoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T00:22:48Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2014-08-03T00:22:52Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2014-08-03T00:24:36Z pierre1_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-03T00:25:36Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-08-03T00:30:04Z Nizumzen quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-03T00:30:17Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-03T00:30:31Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-08-03T00:33:55Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-08-03T00:35:00Z jdz joined #lisp 2014-08-03T00:39:42Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-08-03T00:39:45Z vlnx: Is there a way to redefine argv0 in sbcl? sb-ext:*posix-argv* is read-only. I'm looking for the equivalent of perl's $0='' or Node.js's process.title 2014-08-03T00:40:28Z pjb: (defvar *posix-argv* sb-ext:*posix-argv*) (setf *posix-argv* my-own-argv) 2014-08-03T00:40:52Z pjb: Ah, no, to change the command name, no, it's not possible. 2014-08-03T00:41:09Z pjb: Only a few systems allow that. 2014-08-03T00:41:35Z pjb: Perhaps you could try to do it with some FFI on the main argv? 2014-08-03T00:43:05Z plastic-houses left #lisp 2014-08-03T00:44:16Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T00:45:28Z GuilOooo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T00:45:42Z GuilOooo joined #lisp 2014-08-03T00:47:21Z vlnx: I'd rather not use FFI for this case. I wonder if the procfs entry is writable. I might just make a sbcl core. 2014-08-03T00:47:30Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-08-03T00:48:09Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: lifetime vanished because session discontinued) 2014-08-03T00:54:29Z blahzik quit (Quit: blahzik) 2014-08-03T00:55:13Z blahzik joined #lisp 2014-08-03T00:57:16Z jstypo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-03T00:59:20Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T01:03:06Z Fare: vlnx: if you know the underlying system call, you can add an FFI interface to that 2014-08-03T01:03:42Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-03T01:05:02Z fe[nl]ix: vlnx: see prctl(2) 2014-08-03T01:06:33Z Fare: https://github.com/dvarrazzo/py-setproctitle/blob/master/src/spt_status.c 2014-08-03T01:08:57Z _d3f quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-03T01:15:50Z vlnx: Thanks for looking in to it, but the core file name from save-lisp-and-die is enough for me now. 2014-08-03T01:16:17Z blahzik quit (Quit: blahzik) 2014-08-03T01:21:03Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-03T01:23:16Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-08-03T01:25:49Z jstypo joined #lisp 2014-08-03T01:27:08Z gingerale joined #lisp 2014-08-03T01:41:24Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-03T01:46:12Z erikc joined #lisp 2014-08-03T01:50:49Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-03T01:58:22Z Hydan quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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More thunderstorms. I hope the electricity stays up. 2014-08-03T06:23:28Z didi: beach: Oh, cool. Do you plan to write about the MOP? 2014-08-03T06:24:03Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T06:24:13Z beach: didi: A little bit. The bit part of it will be a separate book. :) 2014-08-03T06:24:31Z didi: :-) 2014-08-03T06:24:36Z beach: s/bit/big/ 2014-08-03T06:27:25Z didi quit (Quit: you can't /fire me, I /quit) 2014-08-03T06:28:32Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-03T06:31:11Z jstypo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-03T06:31:36Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-08-03T06:31:58Z dbh joined #lisp 2014-08-03T06:34:40Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-03T06:35:11Z phadthai joined #lisp 2014-08-03T06:35:15Z jstypo joined #lisp 2014-08-03T06:36:56Z Guthur: is there an implementation for windows which has a reasonably detailed profiler? 2014-08-03T06:37:15Z beach: Guthur: LispWorks, I would think. 2014-08-03T06:37:40Z Guthur: beach: ah, yes, I should have qualified that, free implementation 2014-08-03T06:38:12Z beach thinks that people who are willing to pay for Windows should be willing to pay for a commercial Lisp implementation as well. 2014-08-03T06:38:52Z Guthur: beach: there is a decidedly large difference between the cost of a windows license and an LW license 2014-08-03T06:40:45Z schjetne: What are the advantages to running a Lisp system on Windows? 2014-08-03T06:41:28Z schjetne: Given that people are prepared to pay large amounts of money to do it. 2014-08-03T06:41:54Z phadthai: beach: I have the same impression 2014-08-03T06:43:29Z Guthur: I really don't know where you guys are at but a windows license is not a large outlay where i am from 2014-08-03T06:45:14Z Guthur: around $90, in contrast a 64bit version of LW is $4500 2014-08-03T06:45:23Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-08-03T06:46:25Z tadni` joined #lisp 2014-08-03T06:47:42Z tadni quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-03T06:49:50Z Guthur: schjetne: i never said there are advantages, but there are some softwares not available on linux, which i like to use 2014-08-03T06:49:57Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-03T06:51:11Z Guthur: and i can't be bother running a multi OS setup, VMs are not a great option because i want to use OpenGL and i've had trouble getting that to work acceptably on VM tech 2014-08-03T06:52:00Z gingerale joined #lisp 2014-08-03T06:55:26Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2014-08-03T06:59:34Z cpc26_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T07:00:12Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2014-08-03T07:02:31Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-08-03T07:02:34Z foreignFunction joined #lisp 2014-08-03T07:02:53Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-08-03T07:04:20Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-03T07:05:12Z xyjprc joined #lisp 2014-08-03T07:05:36Z xyjprc quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-08-03T07:05:38Z therik quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T07:05:40Z pierre1_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-03T07:05:58Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T07:06:13Z xyjprc joined #lisp 2014-08-03T07:06:13Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-08-03T07:06:40Z joneshf-laptop_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T07:06:41Z joneshf-laptop quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-03T07:14:09Z trap_exit joined #lisp 2014-08-03T07:18:25Z banjara joined #lisp 2014-08-03T07:18:34Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2014-08-03T07:20:40Z mr-foobar quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2014-08-03T07:21:39Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2014-08-03T07:34:48Z zeitue quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-03T07:35:39Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-08-03T07:36:06Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-08-03T07:36:15Z alexey joined #lisp 2014-08-03T07:38:04Z yacks quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-03T07:39:43Z Guthur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T07:40:47Z sdemarre1 joined #lisp 2014-08-03T07:40:48Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-03T07:43:05Z xyjprc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T07:44:05Z zeitue joined #lisp 2014-08-03T07:45:28Z dbh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-03T07:47:04Z Guthur joined #lisp 2014-08-03T07:51:27Z dandersen joined #lisp 2014-08-03T07:55:16Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-03T07:55:30Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-08-03T07:58:22Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-08-03T08:00:46Z nug700 quit (Quit: bye) 2014-08-03T08:02:35Z dandersen is now known as dickle 2014-08-03T08:04:10Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-08-03T08:04:28Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2014-08-03T08:05:11Z stoned joined #lisp 2014-08-03T08:07:50Z dickle quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-03T08:09:29Z chu joined #lisp 2014-08-03T08:12:09Z beach: Xach: Do you have a preferred way of writing "Quicklisp" (font, upper/lower case, etc.)? 2014-08-03T08:12:22Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T08:13:56Z stassats: something like http://www.techs.co.nz/resources/photoshop/graphics/motiontext-8.jpg ? 2014-08-03T08:14:30Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-03T08:15:36Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-08-03T08:15:40Z beach: I'll let Xach decide. That one might be too flashy for the text in a book, though. 2014-08-03T08:16:31Z foreignFunction quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-03T08:16:47Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-03T08:22:42Z Harag quit (Quit: Harag) 2014-08-03T08:23:06Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-03T08:27:03Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-08-03T08:27:42Z Guthur quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-08-03T08:27:48Z Guthur` joined #lisp 2014-08-03T08:27:59Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-08-03T08:30:41Z ssake joined #lisp 2014-08-03T08:34:19Z trap_exit left #lisp 2014-08-03T08:34:56Z pgomes joined #lisp 2014-08-03T08:35:17Z beach: Is it still true as the quicklisp site says that installing SLIME with quicklisp will generate a file of stuff to add to the .emacs file? Or does quicklisp just print the text to be added? 2014-08-03T08:35:39Z beach: Sorry, I am lazy, I don't want to do the installation again just to find out. 2014-08-03T08:35:56Z stassats: that's with quicklisp-slime-helper 2014-08-03T08:35:58Z banjara quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-03T08:36:02Z beach: Yes. 2014-08-03T08:36:19Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-08-03T08:40:24Z dandersen joined #lisp 2014-08-03T08:41:35Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T08:44:14Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-03T08:44:35Z MoALTz_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-03T08:46:04Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-03T08:49:00Z necronian quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-03T08:53:58Z necronian joined #lisp 2014-08-03T08:55:17Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-08-03T08:57:05Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2014-08-03T08:59:24Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-03T09:00:43Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-08-03T09:07:34Z ggole joined #lisp 2014-08-03T09:10:28Z dandersen is now known as dkcl 2014-08-03T09:12:43Z nipra quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-03T09:20:37Z loic joined #lisp 2014-08-03T09:21:09Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-08-03T09:22:11Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2014-08-03T09:24:14Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-08-03T09:28:21Z ARM9 joined #lisp 2014-08-03T09:28:22Z sdemarre1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-03T09:33:59Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-08-03T09:35:55Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-03T09:38:12Z AeroNotix: any new lisp books? 2014-08-03T09:44:39Z mr-foobar joined #lisp 2014-08-03T09:45:12Z Guthur`: Land of Lisp is pretty new 2014-08-03T09:45:31Z Guthur`: AeroNotix: ^ 2014-08-03T09:45:36Z stassats: compared to the Gutenberg bible? 2014-08-03T09:45:42Z AeroNotix: hm, ok 2014-08-03T09:48:05Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-08-03T09:48:55Z Guthur`: 2010 is pretty new compared to any other lisp book i know 2014-08-03T09:49:13Z Guthur`: I've not read Land of Lisp though 2014-08-03T09:51:48Z beach: AeroNotix: There are also some not-so-new Lisp books that are still relevant and very good. What books have you already read? 2014-08-03T09:51:52Z jdoles: Yeah, lack of books on Lisp is clearly holding Lisp back; it mustn't be its total lack of relevant software available or something like that. 2014-08-03T09:52:13Z AeroNotix: jdoles: Sarcasm is not necessary. 2014-08-03T09:52:15Z stassats: software for writing books? 2014-08-03T09:52:18Z beach: jdoles: I didn't realize something is holding back Lisp. 2014-08-03T09:52:25Z AeroNotix: beach: PCL, On Lisp, SICP. Some other stuff here and there 2014-08-03T09:52:32Z AeroNotix: Lots of Clojure stuff 2014-08-03T09:52:42Z beach: AeroNotix: I recommend PAIP then. 2014-08-03T09:52:45Z stassats: beach: lack of resources is holding Lisp back 2014-08-03T09:53:12Z ARM9: reading practical common lisp 2014-08-03T09:53:16Z ARM9: can recommend 2014-08-03T09:53:19Z AeroNotix: ARM9: already read it 2014-08-03T09:53:23Z AeroNotix: It's amazing 2014-08-03T09:53:36Z ARM9: also CL a gentle introduction to symbolic computation might be worth looking at 2014-08-03T09:53:42Z AeroNotix: Actually I read it every couple of months just because I think it's a well written book 2014-08-03T09:53:51Z AeroNotix: What about Lisp In Small Pieces? 2014-08-03T09:54:09Z beach: AeroNotix: Fantastic book! Especially the English translation. 2014-08-03T09:54:30Z beach: AeroNotix: But it is more about how Lisp is implemented. I recommend PAIP first. 2014-08-03T09:54:40Z stassats: maybe you should write code instead of rereading the same books? 2014-08-03T09:54:41Z ARM9: AeroNotix as for clojure books, any recommendations? 2014-08-03T09:54:46Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2014-08-03T09:54:49Z ARM9: I've been meaning to get into that eventually 2014-08-03T09:54:50Z AeroNotix: ARM9: practical clojure, joy of clojure 2014-08-03T09:54:55Z AeroNotix: stassats: I do 2014-08-03T09:55:03Z ARM9: I see 2014-08-03T09:55:08Z ARM9: how about programming clojure second edition? 2014-08-03T09:55:10Z AeroNotix: stassats: I write clojure for a day job, dabble with as much CL as can keep me fresh 2014-08-03T09:55:16Z ARM9: (got that one already) 2014-08-03T09:55:19Z AeroNotix: ARM9: I read the first, good. 2014-08-03T09:55:25Z ARM9: excellent 2014-08-03T09:55:33Z Guthur`: AeroNotix: I would recommend Lisp in small Pieces 2014-08-03T09:55:56Z AeroNotix: Guthur`: thanks :) 2014-08-03T09:56:12Z Guthur`: and i can give a slightly less biased opinion on the English translation than beach, it is an excellent translation 2014-08-03T09:56:33Z beach: Guthur`: What do you mean "biased"? :) 2014-08-03T09:58:46Z mrSpec quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-08-03T09:59:33Z Guthur`: beach: You can tell Kathleen from me that it was a very good translation, hehe 2014-08-03T09:59:53Z beach: Will do! :) 2014-08-03T10:00:41Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T10:00:52Z AeroNotix: beach: your wife/girlfriend wrote/translated LISP? 2014-08-03T10:01:02Z beach: AeroNotix: My wife, yes. 2014-08-03T10:01:11Z AeroNotix: beach: cool :) 2014-08-03T10:01:17Z AeroNotix: what was the original language? 2014-08-03T10:01:22Z beach: AeroNotix: French. 2014-08-03T10:01:29Z AeroNotix: aha 2014-08-03T10:01:35Z AeroNotix: is she a Lisp programmer or a translator? 2014-08-03T10:01:37Z beach: AeroNotix: If you show up with your copy at ILC, she'll sign it for you. 2014-08-03T10:01:37Z Guthur`: AeroNotix: don't be put off by the price of LiSP, it can be expensive from most sellers 2014-08-03T10:01:45Z Guthur`: it is well worth the investment 2014-08-03T10:01:45Z AeroNotix: beach: I'm based in EU 2014-08-03T10:01:55Z AeroNotix: Guthur`: I'm rich 2014-08-03T10:01:56Z stassats: tech books are expensive 2014-08-03T10:02:11Z AeroNotix: worth it though 2014-08-03T10:02:13Z beach: AeroNotix: She is neither anymore, but Lisp was her first programming language. 2014-08-03T10:02:16Z joe-w-bimedina quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2014-08-03T10:02:24Z Guthur`: LiSP is certainly up there with some of the more pricey ones 2014-08-03T10:02:36Z AeroNotix: beach: that's amazing. I'm trying to get my girlfriend to learn "A" language, don't care which. 2014-08-03T10:02:45Z stassats: learn french, read the second edition 2014-08-03T10:02:52Z Guthur`: though i have seen some tech books running into a few hundred dollars 2014-08-03T10:02:57Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-08-03T10:03:15Z stassats: AeroNotix: «"A" language», APL? 2014-08-03T10:03:22Z AeroNotix: stassats: haha, now that'd be some serious dedication 2014-08-03T10:03:26Z AeroNotix: stassats: I meant just any language at all 2014-08-03T10:03:35Z ARM9: introduce her to scheme 2014-08-03T10:03:43Z stassats: swahili? 2014-08-03T10:03:50Z AeroNotix: stassats: computer language 2014-08-03T10:03:52Z ARM9: nihongo 2014-08-03T10:05:02Z beach: AeroNotix: The secret is not to try to get your girlfriend to learn a programming language, but to pick one who already knows one. 2014-08-03T10:05:04Z maxpeck joined #lisp 2014-08-03T10:05:19Z AeroNotix: beach: It's been 5 years for us, past the point of no return :) 2014-08-03T10:05:27Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-03T10:05:32Z beach: Oh, well. :) 2014-08-03T10:06:02Z AeroNotix: derp, passed 2014-08-03T10:06:18Z stassats: either works, actually 2014-08-03T10:06:26Z AeroNotix: ok 2014-08-03T10:10:54Z kcj quit (Quit: kcj) 2014-08-03T10:11:24Z Amaan quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-08-03T10:11:32Z ehu_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T10:14:54Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-03T10:16:52Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-08-03T10:17:15Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-03T10:17:24Z ARM9 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-03T10:18:43Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2014-08-03T10:18:58Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-08-03T10:20:14Z pnpuff quit 2014-08-03T10:23:25Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-03T10:23:48Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-08-03T10:24:04Z alexey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T10:27:30Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-03T10:28:10Z alexey joined #lisp 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I can't find a manual for Quicklisp. 2014-08-03T13:23:41Z schjetne: the correct manual* 2014-08-03T13:24:09Z ssake quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-03T13:27:10Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-03T13:29:40Z pjb: You can specify a version number in system definitions, but we don't know any tool that processes them. 2014-08-03T13:31:07Z alexey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T13:34:17Z EvW quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-08-03T13:34:23Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2014-08-03T13:37:05Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T13:41:22Z tadni` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T13:41:42Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-03T13:42:28Z moore33 joined #lisp 2014-08-03T13:46:51Z tadni joined #lisp 2014-08-03T13:48:10Z moore33: If I want to use a local git clone of a QuickLisp library -- e.g., glop -- what's the best way to use the local copy via QuickLisp? Put my working directory in local-projects? With what name? 2014-08-03T13:48:31Z moore33: beach: Hello from Nyons. 2014-08-03T13:49:07Z |3b|: i think local-projects overrides normal quicklisp, so any name should work 2014-08-03T13:49:21Z stassats: with a catchy name 2014-08-03T13:49:41Z |3b|: or you can use any of the asdf configuration options to tell it where to load things, since quicklisp loads through asdh 2014-08-03T13:49:44Z EvW1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T13:50:03Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-08-03T13:51:52Z |3b|: moore33: also, if you are looking at working on glop, which OS are you using? 2014-08-03T13:52:15Z pjb: moore33: if you're concerned by name collisions, I'd advise a naming scheme such as com.informatimago.project.system-name, stored in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/com/informatimago/project/… 2014-08-03T13:52:30Z moore33: |3b|: Windows. 2014-08-03T13:52:34Z pjb: (Hello from Paris) 2014-08-03T13:52:47Z |3b|: pjb: doesn't help with conflicts with the same library :) 2014-08-03T13:53:23Z pjb: your system name is com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum, there's no conflict: you properly override what you do. 2014-08-03T13:53:33Z moore33: pjb: Well, yeah. I want to use my local version in preference to the "official" quicklisp version. 2014-08-03T13:53:51Z pjb: local-projects works fine for that. 2014-08-03T13:54:45Z moore33: |3b|: Actually, I use Linux by preference, but I'm in a mode where I'm trying to get some work done using both Windows and Linux. 2014-08-03T13:55:16Z beach: Hey moore33. 2014-08-03T13:55:32Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-08-03T13:55:43Z |3b|: one of the branches of my copy of glop on github has some things that make working on it in X a bit nicer that i think aren't in upstream yet 2014-08-03T13:55:57Z |3b| needs to sort that stuff out one of these days :/ 2014-08-03T13:56:23Z moore33: |3b|:Cool. 2014-08-03T13:58:01Z dkcl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-03T13:58:07Z dandersen joined #lisp 2014-08-03T14:00:18Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T14:02:25Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2014-08-03T14:03:42Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-03T14:06:24Z pgriffel joined #lisp 2014-08-03T14:07:58Z Xach: beach: I prefer it written as "Quicklisp", with no camel-case 2014-08-03T14:08:29Z Xach: beach: For graphic design I've been using the Baskerville font, and the capital Q from that front, for stickers and t-shirts and other stuff. 2014-08-03T14:08:38Z Xach: postcards, etc 2014-08-03T14:09:07Z schjetne: It doesn't look like you can specify a "greater than or equal to version" dependency in ASDF. 2014-08-03T14:09:49Z urandom_1 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-08-03T14:10:10Z hitecnologys: schjetne: IIRC, you can. 2014-08-03T14:10:15Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T14:11:01Z moore33: Xach:Quicklisp it is. 2014-08-03T14:12:54Z hitecnologys: schjetne: yes, you can: 'a constraint of minimal version to satisfy can be specified using e.g. (:version "mydepname" "1.0.11")'. 2014-08-03T14:13:29Z schjetne: Ah, it's always greater than or equal 2014-08-03T14:13:44Z hitecnologys: Yes. 2014-08-03T14:15:23Z schjetne: Ah, missed that bit. It's under 'Common attributes of components', not 'defsystem grammar' 2014-08-03T14:17:14Z hitecnologys: Are you one of those not so many people who make use of version specifiers? 2014-08-03T14:18:16Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-08-03T14:18:17Z schjetne: Yes. I was using a library made by one of those many people who do not use version specifiers. I wonder what will happen if I send a pull request with a version specifier. 2014-08-03T14:18:25Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T14:18:31Z Ralt joined #lisp 2014-08-03T14:18:43Z stassats: does it have a version? 2014-08-03T14:18:59Z Ralt: hi 2014-08-03T14:21:19Z schjetne: stassats: code was moved from one library to its dependency, minor version incremented, naive user (i.e. me) came along, Quicklisp loaded the old version of the dependancy without throwing an error, naive used scratched head for a while, and here we are. 2014-08-03T14:21:24Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-08-03T14:22:14Z shridhar joined #lisp 2014-08-03T14:22:37Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-08-03T14:22:51Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-08-03T14:25:48Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-03T14:25:52Z pgomes quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-03T14:25:56Z MoALTz_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-03T14:26:30Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T14:26:34Z dandersen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-03T14:29:51Z alexey joined #lisp 2014-08-03T14:32:30Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-03T14:36:18Z yuqianCN quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T14:36:38Z shridhar quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-03T14:37:58Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-08-03T14:40:54Z nalbyuites quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-03T14:41:49Z jdoles quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-08-03T14:44:58Z pgriffel quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 31.0/20140715214327]) 2014-08-03T14:48:41Z tadni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T14:50:09Z abbe joined #lisp 2014-08-03T14:56:46Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2014-08-03T14:58:29Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2014-08-03T14:59:11Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T14:59:59Z ssake joined #lisp 2014-08-03T15:03:27Z moore33: Hmm, I'm beginning to suspect that the CFFI definition of :long is wrong on 64bit ccl for Windows, but it's hard to believe I'm the first to have noticed. 2014-08-03T15:04:06Z moore33: At least, the accessor is treating it like a 64-bit value. 2014-08-03T15:04:14Z pjb: Perhaps somebody else just worked around without noticing. 2014-08-03T15:04:32Z pjb: or just cursed Microsoft. 2014-08-03T15:05:08Z gabriel_laddel quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-03T15:05:34Z moore33: Perhaps, or Microsoft header files don't use "long", but seems hard to believe given that Microsoft defines long as 4 bytes on x86_64, unlike the rest of the world. 2014-08-03T15:06:04Z alexey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T15:06:06Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-03T15:06:25Z brucem: moore33: there are indeed "oddities" in that area on 64 bit Windows. 2014-08-03T15:07:47Z moore33: Bah. 2014-08-03T15:08:10Z tadni joined #lisp 2014-08-03T15:09:54Z Ayey_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-03T15:10:44Z pgomes joined #lisp 2014-08-03T15:15:50Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-08-03T15:16:30Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-03T15:17:34Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-08-03T15:18:33Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-08-03T15:19:24Z ARM9 joined #lisp 2014-08-03T15:23:17Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T15:23:52Z JuanDaugherty did the 32-64 thing for dos for a browser plugin a couple years ago (and the firebreath fw) 2014-08-03T15:25:19Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T15:26:13Z stardiviner quit (Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/) 2014-08-03T15:29:47Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-03T15:29:52Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-03T15:30:03Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-03T15:30:16Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-08-03T15:31:56Z mikaelj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-03T15:32:28Z hypno__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-03T15:35:10Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-08-03T15:36:33Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-03T15:38:36Z AdmiralBumbleBee quit (Quit: AdmiralBumbleBee) 2014-08-03T15:39:11Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-08-03T15:40:01Z _d3f joined #lisp 2014-08-03T15:40:40Z _d3f quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-03T15:41:47Z _d3f joined #lisp 2014-08-03T15:43:16Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-08-03T15:46:32Z zhangyh26258 joined #lisp 2014-08-03T15:50:18Z joe-w-bimedina joined #lisp 2014-08-03T15:50:33Z hitecnologys: Are there any other relatively up-to-date bindings to browser engines except cl-webkit (which is quite old)? 2014-08-03T15:51:04Z stassats: commonqt 2014-08-03T15:52:03Z hitecnologys: CommonQt can't render web pages. 2014-08-03T15:52:09Z stassats: is that so? 2014-08-03T15:52:31Z joe-w-bimedina: Is there a way to change syntax highlighting on prefixes in Emacs, I put the cursor over the prefix, e.g. the cl: in cl:length and choose customize-face and it just goes to default-faces section, it doesnt show which face to change 2014-08-03T15:53:01Z stassats: that's not how syntax highlighting works 2014-08-03T15:53:03Z hitecnologys: stassats: I'm not sure, to be honest. But I've never heard that Qt can render HTML. Am I wrong that it can't? 2014-08-03T15:53:13Z stassats: hitecnologys: you are 2014-08-03T15:53:57Z kushal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T15:53:59Z zacharias quit (Quit: Bye!) 2014-08-03T15:54:19Z hitecnologys: stassats: my glob, Qt is like a swiss-knife. Did you have experience rendering pages using it? Is the result good enough? 2014-08-03T15:54:42Z stassats: hitecnologys: https://github.com/stassats/cl-qt-web-browser 2014-08-03T15:55:10Z joe-w-bimedina: strassats: could you give me an idea how I can do this? 2014-08-03T15:55:38Z stassats: joe-w-bimedina: write your own syntax highlighter 2014-08-03T15:55:43Z hitecnologys: stassats: woah, that's sort of exactly what I was looking for. Thanks. 2014-08-03T15:55:49Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-08-03T15:56:11Z stassats: and i'm really fond of the name 2014-08-03T15:56:57Z joe-w-bimedina: does emacs highlight prefixes in default configuration? If not I'll probably just leave it as is 2014-08-03T15:57:42Z stassats: though it doesn't appear to work anymore 2014-08-03T15:57:52Z hitecnologys: stassats: by the way, where did sbcl-arm go? 2014-08-03T15:58:01Z stassats: upstream 2014-08-03T15:58:07Z hitecnologys: Ah, I see. 2014-08-03T15:59:20Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-08-03T15:59:46Z Ayey_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T16:00:16Z stassats: and i pushed a fix 2014-08-03T16:00:34Z stassats: the only problem is that you can't restart it 2014-08-03T16:00:59Z hitecnologys: Restart? 2014-08-03T16:01:08Z stassats: start, stop, start again. can't 2014-08-03T16:01:13Z hitecnologys: Why not? 2014-08-03T16:01:17Z stassats: because reasons 2014-08-03T16:01:40Z Guthur`: damn those reasons, always being unreasonable 2014-08-03T16:01:45Z |3b|: 'it' is the qt web thing? 2014-08-03T16:02:00Z stassats: yes 2014-08-03T16:02:14Z hitecnologys: Oh, I thought 'it' means SBCL. 2014-08-03T16:04:54Z Ayey_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-03T16:05:37Z stassats: and youtube videos keep playing after closing it, for some time 2014-08-03T16:06:03Z smithzv: xj 2014-08-03T16:06:23Z hitecnologys: Well, still not bad. 2014-08-03T16:07:53Z smithzv: ... maybe I need to write something for ERC that confirms before sending likely emacs keychord mistakes to IRC channels 2014-08-03T16:07:54Z felgenh3 joined #lisp 2014-08-03T16:08:49Z hitecnologys: Hmm, I can't load CommonQt anymore. I complains about: OPERATION-ERROR while invoking # on #SO "qt" "so" "commonqt">. What the hell does that mean? 2014-08-03T16:09:38Z stassats: that it can't be compiled, duh 2014-08-03T16:09:58Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-08-03T16:10:56Z hitecnologys: That is what I figured out too. But why? Qt seems to be installed and I didn't touch it since I last successfully loaded CommonQt. 2014-08-03T16:11:12Z JuanDaugherty loled at "start, stop, start again. can't" 2014-08-03T16:11:23Z stassats: hitecnologys: go look in its directory then 2014-08-03T16:11:37Z stassats: i.e. compile it by hand and see what smells fine 2014-08-03T16:11:39Z stassats: funny 2014-08-03T16:12:57Z beach: Xach: OK, thanks for the info on Quicklisp. 2014-08-03T16:14:06Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-08-03T16:14:29Z dim: stassats: still working on your modern editor btw? 2014-08-03T16:14:45Z stassats: "working" 2014-08-03T16:14:54Z stassats: in theory, yes 2014-08-03T16:15:19Z dim: I'd like to have an Emacs with modern rendering facilities, basically ;-) 2014-08-03T16:15:31Z dim: (think fonts, image support, etc) 2014-08-03T16:16:21Z stassats: i worry about that not that much when writing lisp 2014-08-03T16:16:40Z dim: I tend to use Emacs as my primary UI for about everything 2014-08-03T16:16:44Z hitecnologys: Indeed. Who needs all these fancy stuff? 2014-08-03T16:17:07Z hitecnologys: What we really need is a good editor, like VIM, but better. 2014-08-03T16:17:14Z JuanDaugherty: or rather who needs it everywhere 2014-08-03T16:17:15Z dim: mail, irc, editing blog articles, customer docs, shells, you name it 2014-08-03T16:17:21Z ARM9: "like VIM, but better" u wot 2014-08-03T16:17:39Z hitecnologys: ARM9: what? 2014-08-03T16:17:40Z dim: stassats: so you're after a lisp IDE more than a modern Emacs, right? 2014-08-03T16:17:51Z stassats: VIMIM, vi improved imporved? 2014-08-03T16:18:01Z stassats: dim: right 2014-08-03T16:18:07Z hitecnologys: Huh. 2014-08-03T16:18:16Z ARM9: I don't know what your idea of better is 2014-08-03T16:18:17Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-03T16:18:18Z dim: stassats: that would also be very good to have ;-) 2014-08-03T16:18:25Z drmeister: Does anyone know how the options of ASDF:CREATE-IMAGE work together? Some appear self-explanatory but what do... prologue-code epilog-code prelude postlude entry-point do? 2014-08-03T16:18:33Z Quasus: cl-vim :) that would be great 2014-08-03T16:18:34Z stassats: dim: and later maybe for other languages 2014-08-03T16:18:47Z Longlius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T16:19:00Z Xach: moore33: did you get a satisfactory answer about overriding a quicklisp-provided project with a local one? 2014-08-03T16:19:02Z dim: yeah I guess that you can't really do that without some pluggable parts/apis, using generics or something 2014-08-03T16:19:31Z hitecnologys: stassats: you can make it modular and then write plugins for languages. 2014-08-03T16:19:52Z stassats: and sell them, lisp free, java $399 2014-08-03T16:20:02Z dim: hehe 2014-08-03T16:20:06Z hitecnologys: Just no VimScript, please. 2014-08-03T16:20:18Z dim: python and ruby, $29, javascript, $199 ;-) 2014-08-03T16:20:48Z dim: drmeister: I tend to just use buildapp from Xach, it just works 2014-08-03T16:20:54Z loke_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T16:20:59Z dim: and you have a choice of SBCL and CCL 2014-08-03T16:21:04Z dim: s/and/or/ 2014-08-03T16:21:18Z hitecnologys: Well, it's not that bad idea, actually. People make lots of money doing far stranger things. 2014-08-03T16:21:37Z isoraqathedh joined #lisp 2014-08-03T16:22:24Z Xach: i need to fix up buildapp 2014-08-03T16:22:50Z dim: what's broken? 2014-08-03T16:23:11Z Xach: the patch that added ccl support broke a few things 2014-08-03T16:23:27Z Xach: i did not test it thoroughly enough and there are some things I'd like to update in how it works 2014-08-03T16:23:36Z Xach: and hopefully make it easier to port to other lisps in the process 2014-08-03T16:23:46Z Xach: windows is broken, for example 2014-08-03T16:24:39Z AeroNotix: TIL about buildapp, nice work Xach 2014-08-03T16:25:23Z Ralt: Xach: oh. I was going to eventually provide binaries for a recent project of mine using buildapp, I should wait a bit? :) 2014-08-03T16:27:04Z Xach: Ralt: it works ok, but not on windows and not when you hit an error during building (it doesn't go into the debugger properly like it used to) 2014-08-03T16:27:05Z dim: windows support would be nice, as I intend to be using it someday with pgloader ;-) 2014-08-03T16:27:28Z dim: maybe I'll do the same as stassats and have a payed-for version of pgloader.exe for windows, with a little GUI 2014-08-03T16:27:54Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-08-03T16:28:13Z stassats: using commonqt! 2014-08-03T16:28:46Z dim: and some hand made syntax highlighting for the pgloader command language, yeah 2014-08-03T16:29:01Z Ralt: Xach: oh, it should be fine then. Thanks 2014-08-03T16:29:10Z dim: and a progress bar that's always wrong! 2014-08-03T16:30:07Z stassats: postgress bar 2014-08-03T16:30:37Z dim: if I name it like that I'll take pride that it's correct 2014-08-03T16:30:44Z dim: and there sunks my free time for the next decade 2014-08-03T16:30:48Z dim: maybe not a good plan ;-) 2014-08-03T16:31:06Z drmeister: dim: I'm implementing asdf into clasp - I need to implement create-image or ECLs C:Builder 2014-08-03T16:31:29Z dim: is clasp the name of your LLVM based CL compiler? 2014-08-03T16:31:36Z drmeister: dim: Yes. 2014-08-03T16:31:39Z dim: cool ;-) 2014-08-03T16:31:49Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2014-08-03T16:31:56Z Xach: buildapp gold for windows is only $4,983 2014-08-03T16:33:06Z hitecnologys: Xach: what aboud buildapp enterprise edition? 2014-08-03T16:33:19Z dim: we need to find a partnership contract where you get a fee when I sell pgloader for windows (built with buildapp) rather than paying the licence cost upfront 2014-08-03T16:33:35Z dim: because at this price, I'll get myself Lispworks 2014-08-03T16:34:12Z Xach: hitecnologys: you have to call my sales team 2014-08-03T16:35:51Z ARM9 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-03T16:36:38Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0-rc1) 2014-08-03T16:37:00Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-08-03T16:38:05Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T16:42:52Z shridhar joined #lisp 2014-08-03T16:44:03Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-03T16:46:25Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-03T16:46:48Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-08-03T16:46:49Z khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth 2014-08-03T16:46:59Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2014-08-03T16:47:34Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T16:47:48Z manuel_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-03T16:49:11Z GuilOooo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-03T16:50:51Z GuilOooo joined #lisp 2014-08-03T16:52:03Z zhangyh26258 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-03T16:54:16Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T16:54:54Z Guthur` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T16:56:01Z loke_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T16:58:35Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T17:00:30Z Ayey_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T17:01:59Z beaumonta joined #lisp 2014-08-03T17:04:35Z Longlius joined #lisp 2014-08-03T17:05:16Z Ayey_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-03T17:06:35Z beaumonta is now known as abeaumont_ 2014-08-03T17:06:46Z alexey joined #lisp 2014-08-03T17:08:19Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-08-03T17:10:14Z AeroNotix: dim: pgloader is libre for *nix but not on Windows, correct? 2014-08-03T17:10:35Z dim: nope, it was a joke, it's free and open source in all cases currently 2014-08-03T17:10:46Z ARM9 joined #lisp 2014-08-03T17:10:51Z dim: I just didn't build any binary for windows yet 2014-08-03T17:10:59Z dim: you still can quickload it 2014-08-03T17:11:35Z alexey quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-03T17:11:36Z JuanDaugherty: pg is free everywhere 2014-08-03T17:11:47Z AeroNotix: oh ok 2014-08-03T17:12:43Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-08-03T17:13:14Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-08-03T17:13:30Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T17:13:47Z nell joined #lisp 2014-08-03T17:15:41Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T17:16:18Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-08-03T17:16:32Z kpreid joined #lisp 2014-08-03T17:17:39Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-08-03T17:18:07Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-03T17:19:47Z pjb joined #lisp 2014-08-03T17:20:11Z pjb is now known as Guest83439 2014-08-03T17:20:58Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-03T17:21:07Z Guest83439 left #lisp 2014-08-03T17:21:51Z pgriffel joined #lisp 2014-08-03T17:23:48Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2014-08-03T17:24:46Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-08-03T17:25:30Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-08-03T17:29:17Z banjara joined #lisp 2014-08-03T17:29:32Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-03T17:30:35Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0-rc1) 2014-08-03T17:32:39Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T17:35:07Z shridhar quit (Quit: shridhar) 2014-08-03T17:35:57Z Natch quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-03T17:36:22Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-03T17:39:04Z mrSpec quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-03T17:40:05Z davazp joined #lisp 2014-08-03T17:41:34Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-08-03T17:42:44Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T17:45:56Z gabriel_laddel quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-03T17:47:43Z hiroakip quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T17:50:54Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-08-03T17:51:24Z _d3f quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-08-03T17:52:25Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-08-03T17:52:30Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-08-03T17:52:36Z _d3f joined #lisp 2014-08-03T17:56:11Z moore33: Xach: re overriding a Quicklisp project, I understand that it's just a matter of placing the project in local-projects, and the name of the directory doesn't matter. Is that correct? 2014-08-03T17:57:18Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-03T17:59:01Z moore33: ;;; XXX these will be broken on 64-bit systems that do not have 64-bit 2014-08-03T17:59:01Z moore33: ;;; longs, such as Win64. Need to define this type in CFFI and it may 2014-08-03T17:59:01Z moore33: ;;; require some sort of grovelling or guessing. 2014-08-03T17:59:03Z moore33: sigh 2014-08-03T17:59:38Z ehu_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T18:01:03Z GuilOooo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-03T18:01:18Z Ayey_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T18:01:22Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-03T18:02:47Z GuilOooo joined #lisp 2014-08-03T18:03:47Z nell joined #lisp 2014-08-03T18:04:06Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-03T18:04:13Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-08-03T18:06:02Z Ayey_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-03T18:06:05Z beach left #lisp 2014-08-03T18:06:42Z davazp quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-03T18:08:03Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2014-08-03T18:08:06Z H4ns: moore33: the name of the directory does not matter, but the name of the .asd file does 2014-08-03T18:08:20Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-08-03T18:08:41Z davazp joined #lisp 2014-08-03T18:11:03Z madmalik quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-08-03T18:12:15Z Xach: moore33: what h4ns says is true 2014-08-03T18:12:37Z Xach: moore33: local-projects has some special magic to automatically scan for new things, but any directory in your asdf registry should work too 2014-08-03T18:13:45Z AdmiralBumbleBee joined #lisp 2014-08-03T18:16:02Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-08-03T18:17:28Z wchun quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-03T18:20:24Z moore33: kewl 2014-08-03T18:35:29Z madmalik joined #lisp 2014-08-03T18:37:18Z gabnet joined #lisp 2014-08-03T18:40:55Z cocosp joined #lisp 2014-08-03T18:50:29Z DrCode_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T18:52:03Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-08-03T18:52:27Z DrCode quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-03T18:52:27Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-03T18:53:18Z DrCode_ is now known as DrCode 2014-08-03T18:55:49Z gabnet quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T18:56:18Z MoALTz__ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T18:57:21Z cocosp quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-08-03T18:59:24Z MoALTz_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-03T19:01:47Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T19:01:58Z Ayey_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T19:02:16Z AeroNotix: Xach: buildapp doesn't prompt if the --output file is going to overwrite something. Intentional? 2014-08-03T19:02:35Z AeroNotix: Perhaps adding a -f/--force-overwrite or something would be nice 2014-08-03T19:04:58Z troydm quit (Quit: What is hope? That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? (C) Rau Le Creuset) 2014-08-03T19:05:53Z hitecnologys: AeroNotix: perhabs it'd be better to have --no-overwrite rather than --force-overwrite. Overwriting is a kind of thing I usually expect by default. 2014-08-03T19:06:30Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-03T19:06:32Z AeroNotix: whichever 2014-08-03T19:07:42Z alexey1 joined #lisp 2014-08-03T19:07:47Z pierre1_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T19:08:59Z Ayey_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-03T19:09:11Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-08-03T19:11:52Z alexey1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-03T19:12:34Z troydm joined #lisp 2014-08-03T19:19:19Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-03T19:19:59Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-08-03T19:23:23Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-03T19:23:24Z zophy joined #lisp 2014-08-03T19:24:04Z Natch joined #lisp 2014-08-03T19:26:23Z felgenh3 quit (Quit: felgenh3) 2014-08-03T19:29:03Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-08-03T19:29:04Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-08-03T19:29:04Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-08-03T19:30:14Z yacks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T19:35:19Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-08-03T19:38:21Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-03T19:41:39Z pierre1_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-03T19:46:46Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-08-03T19:47:31Z stassats quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-03T19:50:07Z ggole quit 2014-08-03T19:51:15Z cpc26_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T19:51:55Z davazp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T19:51:56Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-08-03T19:53:06Z ehu_ is now known as ehu 2014-08-03T19:54:36Z cpc26 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-03T19:55:25Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-08-03T19:55:39Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-03T19:56:30Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-08-03T19:56:40Z Hydan quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-08-03T20:01:18Z cocosp joined #lisp 2014-08-03T20:01:29Z pdponze joined #lisp 2014-08-03T20:03:26Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2014-08-03T20:03:35Z Denommus` quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-03T20:03:37Z AeroNotix: how do I send patches to cl-launch? 2014-08-03T20:04:33Z Ayey_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T20:06:58Z moore33 quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2014-08-03T20:09:36Z Ayey_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-03T20:12:12Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-08-03T20:15:06Z ltbarcly quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-03T20:18:17Z milosn_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T20:20:00Z AeroNotix: Xach: it's easy to make buildapp's process hang around after the invocation failed 2014-08-03T20:20:06Z milosn joined #lisp 2014-08-03T20:20:06Z AeroNotix: you probably know about this 2014-08-03T20:20:16Z AeroNotix: just saying I'm hitting it quite a lot 2014-08-03T20:21:18Z zolk3ri joined #lisp 2014-08-03T20:21:19Z AeroNotix: Probably related to this issue: https://github.com/xach/buildapp/issues/17 2014-08-03T20:22:39Z pgriffel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T20:23:26Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-08-03T20:23:53Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-08-03T20:26:42Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-03T20:26:47Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-08-03T20:29:02Z jackdaniel joined #lisp 2014-08-03T20:29:31Z pgomes quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-03T20:29:35Z AeroNotix: if this is a difficult issue to fix, maybe a temporary fix is to put the pid somewhere so you can programmatically kill it easier 2014-08-03T20:30:35Z AeroNotix: Xach: do you know any complicated projects using buildapp? 2014-08-03T20:31:21Z dim: AeroNotix: what do you mean by "complicated"? 2014-08-03T20:31:50Z AeroNotix: dim: large projects, non-standard requirements. Dunno, just bigger than the examples he has in the docs 2014-08-03T20:32:06Z dim: pgloader compiles code at run-time, pginstall loads resources at load-time to embed them into the binary memory (embedded web site), is that complicated? 2014-08-03T20:32:13Z AeroNotix: sure 2014-08-03T20:32:25Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pginstall, https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader 2014-08-03T20:32:36Z AeroNotix: dim: I already had it open from before, didn't think to look there derp 2014-08-03T20:33:03Z dim: look at https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/debian/rules 2014-08-03T20:34:35Z ered quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-03T20:34:51Z AeroNotix: thanks 2014-08-03T20:34:56Z Ralt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T20:36:09Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-08-03T20:38:00Z dim: the main Makefile also uses buildapp, the debian/rules is interesting because it's in isolation 2014-08-03T20:38:39Z AeroNotix: ok 2014-08-03T20:38:40Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/Makefile might be interesting if you want to allow for a simple `make` command to download all your Quicklisp dependencies then buildapp itself then build your binary 2014-08-03T20:39:22Z AeroNotix: cheers 2014-08-03T20:39:46Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T20:40:17Z AeroNotix: dim: looks like you put quicklisp into the build dir, correct? 2014-08-03T20:40:18Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-08-03T20:40:26Z dim: yeah 2014-08-03T20:40:26Z AeroNotix: I mean, all the quicklisp dists and everything 2014-08-03T20:40:28Z AeroNotix: ok cool 2014-08-03T20:40:37Z dim: so that I have a clean-room quicklisp for building pgloader 2014-08-03T20:40:42Z AeroNotix: yeah makes sense 2014-08-03T20:41:00Z dim: it eases testing "as the user" rather than "as the main developper with the full environment" 2014-08-03T20:41:08Z dim: I tend to use pgloader in the SLIME REPL, after all 2014-08-03T20:41:44Z AeroNotix: ok 2014-08-03T20:42:32Z AeroNotix: I'm just "buildapp"-izing an app to see how it works 2014-08-03T20:43:13Z dim: it took quite some back-and-forth before I got to this Makefile, and I'm using variants of it in several projects (pgloader, pginstall and ql-to-deb on github share the same Makefile structure) 2014-08-03T20:43:37Z AeroNotix: gotcha 2014-08-03T20:43:55Z Xach: AeroNotix: not prompting on output is intentional. i know some people have used buildapp for commercial projects, but i don't know how complex. 2014-08-03T20:44:19Z AeroNotix: Xach: ok, the overwriting is not a big deal really. The subprocess bug is a bit annoying though 2014-08-03T20:44:23Z Xach: yes 2014-08-03T20:44:33Z AeroNotix: Neat project though 2014-08-03T20:44:35Z Ayey_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T20:44:38Z Xach: I haven't found a good way to make sure dependencies are installed other than building once with fetch-on-demand in effect and then building again when they're all in place. 2014-08-03T20:44:56Z Xach: Maybe I should support some sort of dep capture or something. Not sure. 2014-08-03T20:45:18Z AeroNotix: I'm not familiar with the issue enough to comment 2014-08-03T20:45:22Z Xach: I was hoping to work a bit on it today but time is running out. 2014-08-03T20:45:44Z AeroNotix: Xach: there's unfortunately only one Xach :) 2014-08-03T20:46:12Z Xach got diagnosed with shingles this morning, a condition he cannot recommend 2014-08-03T20:46:19Z AeroNotix: yikes 2014-08-03T20:46:28Z AeroNotix: Isn't that an avoidable condition? 2014-08-03T20:46:43Z Xach: Not from what I understand. 2014-08-03T20:46:51Z AeroNotix: ok, I'm thinking of something else. 2014-08-03T20:46:55Z Xach: Avoidable or not, I am stuck with it for the next 4-6 weeks. 2014-08-03T20:47:03Z Xach: Hopefully 4. 2014-08-03T20:47:18Z AeroNotix: much sympathy :( 2014-08-03T20:47:25Z lduros joined #lisp 2014-08-03T20:48:14Z nug700 joined #lisp 2014-08-03T20:50:01Z Lefeni joined #lisp 2014-08-03T20:50:03Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T20:50:17Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-08-03T20:50:40Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2014-08-03T20:50:44Z Xach: Anyway, at the moment my brain is sluggish from medication, but I really want to fix up some of these buildapp issues, and I think in the process I can make it support more lisps. 2014-08-03T20:51:07Z Xach: I can imagine the usefulness of e.g. a smaller output file from clisp 2014-08-03T20:51:11Z jrandom joined #lisp 2014-08-03T20:51:34Z dim: Xach: ouch, I got one some years ago (if I'm reading my english dict correcty, called “Zona” in french), it's quite painful indeed... good luck with it! 2014-08-03T20:52:21Z dim: if only clisp would support lparallel and the other dependencies I grew fond of! 2014-08-03T20:52:56Z dim: sadly, I'm going to have to remove my usage for broadcast streams in pgloader as it doesn't make sense on a user perspective 2014-08-03T20:52:57Z Xach: right...I wouldn't support clisp because I think it's good overall, but because sometimes one of its few strengths is critically important 2014-08-03T20:53:31Z Xach: i'd like to know more about that. i feel like i should use MORE broadcast streams but i'm not used to them enough 2014-08-03T20:53:58Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-03T20:54:00Z dim: well the use case was output on the terminal + log files 2014-08-03T20:54:12Z pnpuff left #lisp 2014-08-03T20:54:16Z dim: pgloader --summary /path/to/summary.txt ... 2014-08-03T20:54:30Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-03T20:54:30Z dim: but users report they want the terminal output clean 2014-08-03T20:54:48Z dim: or they wouldn't be using --summary in the first place (which is not always true but still makes sense) 2014-08-03T20:55:04Z cpc26_ quit 2014-08-03T20:55:36Z kristof joined #lisp 2014-08-03T20:56:33Z banjara quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-03T20:58:11Z dim: Xach: https://github.com/dimitri/ql-to-deb/blob/master/src/utils.lisp uses broadcast streams for its --verbose handling, btw ;-) 2014-08-03T20:58:47Z Vivitron: I benefitted from the empty broadcast stream lisp tip only two days ago:) 2014-08-03T20:59:06Z ARM9 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-03T21:02:32Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2014-08-03T21:03:31Z jrandom quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-08-03T21:04:38Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-08-03T21:07:18Z blahzik joined #lisp 2014-08-03T21:08:07Z wooden joined #lisp 2014-08-03T21:08:33Z endthefed joined #lisp 2014-08-03T21:08:33Z alexey1 joined #lisp 2014-08-03T21:11:39Z adlai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-03T21:13:16Z endthefed is now known as plastic-houses 2014-08-03T21:13:22Z alexey1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-03T21:13:38Z adlai joined #lisp 2014-08-03T21:14:17Z pdponze left #lisp 2014-08-03T21:15:36Z AeroNotix: Vivitron: what does an empty broadcast stream allow you to do? 2014-08-03T21:15:57Z kristof: Broadcast NIL all day 2014-08-03T21:16:05Z kristof: I'm curious about the answer to that, too, actually. 2014-08-03T21:16:51Z |3b|: equivalent to piping to /dev/null 2014-08-03T21:17:19Z kristof is now known as kriskropc 2014-08-03T21:18:42Z |3b|: (let ((*standard-output* (make-broadcast-stream))) (do-stuff)) ignores any output (do-stuff) sends to *standard-output* 2014-08-03T21:19:10Z AeroNotix: interesting 2014-08-03T21:20:12Z AeroNotix: I do love how most lisps easily let you rebind *standard-out* 2014-08-03T21:20:16Z dim: I've been using (make-broadcast-stream s) with a single stream too, it might be more known about, that allows for s to remain open even if library code fancies closing it 2014-08-03T21:20:27Z kriskropc: AeroNotix: Don't most languages let you choose a stream? 2014-08-03T21:20:38Z AeroNotix: kriskropc: sure, but not where you can rebind it like that 2014-08-03T21:20:40Z kriskropc: AeroNotix: Oh, but they lack dynamic binding. Hmmmm. Love me some lisp. 2014-08-03T21:20:42Z AeroNotix: yeah 2014-08-03T21:20:42Z dim: kriskropc: dup2() and close()? 2014-08-03T21:24:14Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-08-03T21:24:48Z ered joined #lisp 2014-08-03T21:26:52Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-03T21:27:22Z nug700 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-03T21:31:01Z pgriffel joined #lisp 2014-08-03T21:32:48Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-08-03T21:33:59Z AeroNotix: In "On Lisp" -- regarding anaphoric macros, it mentions anything which does intentional variable capture and exports the macro which does the capturing, should also export the symbol being capturee 2014-08-03T21:34:01Z AeroNotix: captured* 2014-08-03T21:34:12Z AeroNotix: I just did some quick testing, I found that not to be the case, what's wrong with my code? 2014-08-03T21:34:39Z kriskropc: You would have to export the symbol manually. 2014-08-03T21:34:49Z AeroNotix: https://gist.github.com/AeroNotix/b418a8f5f661d5974dec 2014-08-03T21:35:02Z AeroNotix: kriskropc: I mean I didn't have to export that symbol 2014-08-03T21:35:11Z AeroNotix: line 6 2014-08-03T21:35:39Z AeroNotix: is it because I :use it? So all symbols are imported? 2014-08-03T21:36:16Z mr-foobar quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-03T21:36:21Z AeroNotix: I never was in package when I did that 2014-08-03T21:36:24Z AeroNotix: derp, it's late! 2014-08-03T21:36:35Z Ayey_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-03T21:37:05Z kriskropc: Yeah. :P 2014-08-03T21:37:29Z AeroNotix: hmm, still 2014-08-03T21:37:32Z kriskropc: But I don't think that had anything to do with variable capture. 2014-08-03T21:37:38Z kriskropc is now known as kristof 2014-08-03T21:38:03Z AeroNotix: kristof: updated the gist 2014-08-03T21:38:04Z nug700 joined #lisp 2014-08-03T21:38:37Z AeroNotix: the symbols *are* a part of the correct namespaces, but I don't need to export them 2014-08-03T21:39:50Z ndrei quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T21:40:16Z kristof: Weird 2014-08-03T21:40:33Z banjara joined #lisp 2014-08-03T21:41:04Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-08-03T21:41:08Z AeroNotix: SBCL fwiw 2014-08-03T21:43:03Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2014-08-03T21:43:03Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-08-03T21:43:29Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-08-03T21:45:00Z Mandus: lks 2014-08-03T21:45:02Z |3b|: AeroNotix: your FOO doesn't do variable capture, it is self contained 2014-08-03T21:45:03Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-03T21:45:38Z |3b|: AeroNotix: (defmacro foo (&body body) `(let ((x 10)),@body)), (foo (print x)) is what it is talking about 2014-08-03T21:46:03Z AeroNotix: oh I see 2014-08-03T21:46:12Z AeroNotix: |3b|: thanks! 2014-08-03T21:47:36Z girrig quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-03T21:47:56Z girrig joined #lisp 2014-08-03T21:50:04Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-03T21:53:49Z jleija joined #lisp 2014-08-03T21:55:42Z phax joined #lisp 2014-08-03T21:57:02Z kristof quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-08-03T21:57:22Z kristof joined #lisp 2014-08-03T22:02:17Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-03T22:06:49Z cocosp quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-03T22:08:24Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2014-08-03T22:08:36Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-03T22:09:37Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2014-08-03T22:10:56Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-08-03T22:11:14Z tadni quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-03T22:13:37Z peterhil quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-03T22:14:59Z blahzik quit (Quit: blahzik) 2014-08-03T22:18:18Z Sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-03T22:19:58Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-08-03T22:22:44Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-08-03T22:24:17Z abeaumont_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T22:25:56Z zophy joined #lisp 2014-08-03T22:25:58Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-08-03T22:26:18Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T22:27:04Z blahzik joined #lisp 2014-08-03T22:28:21Z Okasu quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-03T22:29:08Z pchrist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-03T22:30:45Z pchrist joined #lisp 2014-08-03T22:32:00Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2014-08-03T22:37:55Z kbtr_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-03T22:38:00Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2014-08-03T22:38:13Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T22:39:43Z kbtr joined #lisp 2014-08-03T22:41:32Z optikalmouse joined #lisp 2014-08-03T22:43:03Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-03T22:44:18Z francogrex joined #lisp 2014-08-03T22:44:28Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-03T22:48:34Z GuilOooo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-03T22:50:08Z GuilOooo joined #lisp 2014-08-03T23:00:25Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T23:02:18Z plastic-houses left #lisp 2014-08-03T23:05:26Z francogrex quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T23:07:04Z Lefeni quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-03T23:08:05Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2014-08-03T23:09:27Z alexey1 joined #lisp 2014-08-03T23:11:46Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Exit IRC/Hibernate) 2014-08-03T23:11:52Z GuilOooo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-03T23:12:33Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T23:13:33Z alexey1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-03T23:14:57Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-03T23:15:32Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T23:15:40Z johs quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-03T23:15:51Z johs joined #lisp 2014-08-03T23:17:12Z GuilOooo joined #lisp 2014-08-03T23:21:07Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-08-03T23:21:52Z GuilOooo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-03T23:22:11Z lduros quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T23:28:22Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-03T23:34:16Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-08-03T23:35:54Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2014-08-03T23:41:15Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-03T23:41:55Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-08-03T23:44:11Z wizzo quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2014-08-04T02:41:50Z Bike: what makes you think apply doesn't work with predicates? it does work with predicates. 2014-08-04T02:41:56Z Bike: you also can't use every, etc. 2014-08-04T02:42:53Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-08-04T02:43:52Z joe-w-bimedina: this gets an error though, I thought you couldnt because of this: (apply #'stringp (list 1 2 'a)), how do you get it to work with stringp for instance 2014-08-04T02:44:31Z joe-w-bimedina: also could I get a liitle clarification of this "you also can't use every, etc." 2014-08-04T02:44:32Z Bike: stringp takes one argument. 2014-08-04T02:44:35Z Bike: clhs every 2014-08-04T02:44:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_everyc.htm 2014-08-04T02:44:44Z Bike: (every #'stringp (list 1 2 'a)), for instance 2014-08-04T02:47:03Z varjag quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-08-04T02:48:42Z seg joined #lisp 2014-08-04T02:48:43Z joe-w-bimedina: I see, so if I called my *p functions as macros,even though I would shave alot of time off, it still is a bad idea all the way around...I mean there is no instance where this would be done right? 2014-08-04T02:48:58Z Bike: not usually. 2014-08-04T02:49:02Z Bike: a function is a function. 2014-08-04T02:49:17Z Bike: you really need to get a better handle on inlining and stuff, i think we had a similar conversation months ago 2014-08-04T02:49:23Z Zhivago: You can't call macros. :) 2014-08-04T02:49:27Z chu joined #lisp 2014-08-04T02:50:21Z huza quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-04T02:50:35Z huza joined #lisp 2014-08-04T02:51:02Z huza quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-04T02:51:14Z huza joined #lisp 2014-08-04T02:51:37Z joe-w-bimedina: Thank you, I appreciate you helping me with that, is there a beginner link on inlining you can provide, I am good at this http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDkQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnklein.com%2F2009%2F06%2Foptimizing-lisp-some-more%2F&ei=5_TeU6P9JsyhogSg5YHACw&usg=AFQjCNET28LtFA9qDO5Gp6jD9sqP4D6McA&sig2=LkFTa9HRYc3PSTmwVQ6M0g&bvm=bv.72197243,d.cGU but I could use help finding out how to apply the stuff at 2014-08-04T02:51:37Z joe-w-bimedina: that link to cffi wrappers, if it is even possible: 2014-08-04T02:52:49Z Bike: have you tried any of it? like doing (declare (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0))) and watching your implementation's notes? 2014-08-04T02:54:49Z joe-w-bimedina: I am good at this too: http://www.iaeng.org/IJCS/issues_v32/issue_4/IJCS_32_4_19.pdf but I would like to be able to strongly type everything as needed, I have made non compiled identical Lisp code go faster than its c+= counterpart though which was exciting 2014-08-04T02:54:54Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-08-04T02:55:07Z Zhivago: That's easy to do -- just pick a really shitty C++ implementation. 2014-08-04T02:55:19Z Zhivago: Cint will usually do the job. 2014-08-04T02:55:32Z joe-w-bimedina: its g++, what is Cint 2014-08-04T02:55:45Z Bike: a C++ interpreter 2014-08-04T02:55:54Z Zhivago: If only there was a way to look stuff up on the internet ... 2014-08-04T02:57:39Z joe-w-bimedina: I get this (declare (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0))) though, but at debug 3 never noticed any difference 2014-08-04T02:58:01Z Bike: you read that article you linked, right. 2014-08-04T02:58:06Z joe-w-bimedina: yea 2014-08-04T02:58:15Z Bike: the point is that sbcl and probably other implementations give you a lot of advice on where they can't optimize. 2014-08-04T02:58:20Z Bike: so. you can improve the code based on that. 2014-08-04T03:00:12Z joe-w-bimedina: ok so just follow the advice of the interpreter, thanks, it is plentiful, wish I could get all my cffi wrappers to go as fast as the code at that nklein.com link 2014-08-04T03:04:19Z luis quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-04T03:04:57Z nicdev quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-04T03:05:23Z nicdev joined #lisp 2014-08-04T03:05:33Z luis joined #lisp 2014-08-04T03:06:10Z gmcastil joined #lisp 2014-08-04T03:09:51Z adlai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-04T03:10:27Z adlai joined #lisp 2014-08-04T03:11:26Z alexey joined #lisp 2014-08-04T03:14:09Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2014-08-04T03:14:26Z yeltzooo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-04T03:15:22Z alexey quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T03:16:09Z yeltzooo joined #lisp 2014-08-04T03:17:08Z MoALTz__ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-04T03:19:11Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-04T03:26:36Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-08-04T03:27:33Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T03:28:04Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-08-04T03:33:33Z Semtex-h quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-04T03:35:11Z wizzo quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-08-04T03:36:45Z wizzo joined #lisp 2014-08-04T03:37:10Z banjara joined #lisp 2014-08-04T03:40:19Z loke: joe-w-bimedina: You'll only get those advice if you declare SPEED to 3 2014-08-04T03:40:24Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2014-08-04T03:40:38Z loke: (well, possibly SPEED 2 as well, I never could figure out those rules :-) ) 2014-08-04T03:41:47Z quazimodo quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-04T03:42:05Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-08-04T03:43:34Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-04T03:43:34Z joe-w-bimedina: Ok thanks for the advice, I'll give that a shot right now:) 2014-08-04T03:46:27Z joe-w-bimedina: loke: thanks! I really hit the motherlode with that one, my buffer is chock full of useful bits 2014-08-04T03:54:35Z xk05 joined #lisp 2014-08-04T03:55:25Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-08-04T04:02:55Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-08-04T04:07:30Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-04T04:16:50Z loke: joe-w-bimedina: If your goal is to optimise a function for performance, you'll do well starting out with just eliminating all the notices from SBCL with SPEED 3. I improved the performance of a map-generator in a game I was writing by an order of, I think, 200 times or so by just doing that. 2014-08-04T04:17:25Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-04T04:20:43Z joe-w-bimedina: yea, that is my exact plan, thanks for the further clarification, making something 200x faster sounds exciting, been looking like an optimized Interpreted Lisp can equal or beat C++, I wounder if an optimized Python can do that, my research says no oddly enough 2014-08-04T04:21:06Z loke: joe-w-bimedina: not at all oddly 2014-08-04T04:21:38Z loke: Python is an interpreter, and a terrible one at that (sure, it compiles to bytecode, but the bytecode is interpreted) 2014-08-04T04:21:43Z vsync joined #lisp 2014-08-04T04:22:16Z joe-w-bimedina: wonder why python is so much slower, If I can beat the Python OpenCv library I might have a real winner on my hands 2014-08-04T04:22:20Z joshe: what lisp interpreter are you using that performs that well? 2014-08-04T04:22:41Z loke: SBCL is a compiler, just like C, C++, FORTRAN or any of th eother high-performance languages. 2014-08-04T04:23:07Z loke: So you should expect to get the same order of magnitude performance out of SBCL as you are with C++ 2014-08-04T04:23:38Z joshe: sbcl includes an interpreter as well, but my understanding is that it is not normally used and its performance is terrible 2014-08-04T04:24:24Z loke: joshe: correct. You can force its use, but if you don't (nobody does) there was only once case when it's actually, IIRC. I'll be damned if I remember what that case is 2014-08-04T04:24:46Z loke: joe-w-bimedina: If you want to truly see what's going on behind the scenes, just call DISASSEMBLE on a function 2014-08-04T04:25:06Z joe-w-bimedina: Wow, that is cool, this whole time I thought Lisp was intrepreted, thanks I will try that loke: 2014-08-04T04:25:20Z joshe: I remember hearing that it was used for EVAL at runtime 2014-08-04T04:25:48Z loke: joe-w-bimedina: Look at this. Here's the disassembly for a function that adds 1 to its argument: 2014-08-04T04:25:49Z loke: (disassemble #'(lambda (x) (declare (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0))) (1+ x))) 2014-08-04T04:26:12Z Bike: sbcl eval still compiles anything nontrivial. you can use an interpreter by setting sb-ext:*interpreter-mode* or something, but it's not very good 2014-08-04T04:26:22Z Bike: *evaluator-mode*, it seems 2014-08-04T04:26:39Z loke: joe-w-bimedina: Now this is the same function, but with an added type specifier saying that X is between 0 and 10: (disassemble #'(lambda (x) (declare (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0)) (type (integer 0 10) x)) (1+ x))) 2014-08-04T04:27:15Z loke: Bike: But there was some specific case where the interpreter is used, yes? Was it when using TRACE? 2014-08-04T04:28:06Z Bike: what, always? i don't think so. you can even build sbcl with no interpreter. 2014-08-04T04:28:22Z Bike: simple expressions can be eval'd though, like function calls 2014-08-04T04:28:31Z joe-w-bimedina: yea I see all the POP, assembly stuff..man that is a godsend, thank you again loke: I love getting down to the machine level, so I guess that is really how you profile code 2014-08-04T04:28:34Z loke: joe-w-bimedina: In the first case, GENERIC-+ is called, because the compiler don't know what X actually is, so it could be a complex, a bignum or even a string (in which case it must throw an error). 2014-08-04T04:29:13Z loke: joe-w-bimedina: In the second case, we tell it it's a small integer, so there is no risk of overflow and no need to deal with other datatypes, so it's simply compiled to a simple ADD instruction 2014-08-04T04:29:52Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks , I'm saving this whole session, this stuff is GOLD 2014-08-04T04:30:27Z gmcastil quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-04T04:31:40Z loke: Good luck. One can learn a lot about how SBCL works by studying the output of DISASSMEMBLE 2014-08-04T04:32:13Z joe-w-bimedina: so if I could get down to the machine level and optimize my defcfuns to operate at C++ speed, that would be cool, yea , you are cool to let me know that stuff loke: 2014-08-04T04:32:20Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2014-08-04T04:32:22Z CrazyEddy quit (Changing host) 2014-08-04T04:32:22Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2014-08-04T04:33:40Z isoraqathedh joined #lisp 2014-08-04T04:38:21Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2014-08-04T04:39:55Z manuel_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-04T04:40:12Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2014-08-04T04:42:06Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-08-04T04:44:04Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-08-04T04:44:20Z JuanDaugherty: imo you should only optimize to C level 2014-08-04T04:44:40Z JuanDaugherty: let llvm, specific archs take it from there on a case by case basis 2014-08-04T04:45:52Z root_empire joined #lisp 2014-08-04T04:46:04Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks for that advice, so does sbcl use llvm? 2014-08-04T04:46:50Z joshe: sbcl is its own toolchain, compiler assembler and linker 2014-08-04T04:47:10Z JuanDaugherty: it can use it as a target 2014-08-04T04:47:12Z joshe: but there has been some experimental work to use llvm 2014-08-04T04:48:05Z JuanDaugherty: i don't think there's a sbcl llvm yet 2014-08-04T04:48:12Z stardiviner quit (Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/) 2014-08-04T04:48:29Z joe-w-bimedina: If I can mold my wrappers to be as fast a C, my defcfuns, that would be so awesome, I'll have to poke around with DISASSEMBLE tomorrow 2014-08-04T04:49:38Z joe-w-bimedina: have any of you ever done that?, and if so how hard was it? 2014-08-04T04:49:42Z jasom: joshe: until very, very recently llvm made life difficult for evem moderately performant garbage collectors. It was basically "allocate all GC objects on the heap, period" 2014-08-04T04:50:37Z joshe: as opposed to using a custom stack as a sort of nursery generation? 2014-08-04T04:50:44Z root_empire quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-04T04:50:59Z p_l: jasom: I believe it was mostly for the built-in GC assist instructions, though? 2014-08-04T04:51:20Z joshe: hm, actually I have no idea how sbcl gencgc allocates memory 2014-08-04T04:51:39Z joshe: I've only messed with sbcl at much higher and lower levels 2014-08-04T04:51:44Z jasom: joshe: there are many things in a lisp implementation that have dynamic extent 2014-08-04T04:53:08Z joshe: and those are allocated on the stack if they are not used in a closure? 2014-08-04T04:53:19Z jasom: p_l: I haven't followed it very closely, but my understanding is that the situation is a lot better (even if there is room for improvement) 2014-08-04T04:53:49Z joshe: oh derp, they have dynamic scope so usage in a closure is of course irrelevant 2014-08-04T04:54:42Z p_l: jasom: Given that LLVM really didn't have much to do with GC except for few "GC assists" that you had to implement by yourself in the end. Quite possible that those handled only heap. You could still code your own macroinstructions or code transformations or simply generate code to manage non-heap allocation with GC 2014-08-04T04:54:46Z jasom: joshe: on everything except x86oids, there are 2 stacks, and the registers are split between containing values that are tagged lisp objects or numbers 2014-08-04T04:55:07Z joshe: that makes sense 2014-08-04T04:55:20Z jasom: joshe: on x86 there is one stack, and it uses conservative roots (this is due to the historical dearth of registers on x86) 2014-08-04T04:56:43Z p_l: I wonder how much work would be adding precise stack scanning like Mono and CCL do 2014-08-04T04:56:56Z p_l: (afaik) 2014-08-04T04:57:18Z joshe: there would seem to be no reason for this on x86-64, it has as many GPRs as ARM 2014-08-04T04:57:39Z joshe: I would assume it's because all the x86-64 code was copied from x86 2014-08-04T04:57:46Z jasom: joshe: well initial results with arm show that it's a cause of performance issues there 2014-08-04T04:57:54Z joshe: ah 2014-08-04T04:57:59Z jasom: there is no way to do a fixed split of registers that works for all code 2014-08-04T04:58:16Z jasom: and you have lose an extra 2 registers for the second sp/fp 2014-08-04T04:59:21Z jasom: so some sort of dynamic split with a unified stack would be nice, but it's obviously a non-trivial change 2014-08-04T04:59:26Z joshe: hm 2014-08-04T04:59:57Z jasom: sparc and power have way more GPRs than arm or x86-64 2014-08-04T05:00:39Z joshe: indeed 2014-08-04T05:01:28Z joshe: I understand that sbcl on sparc pretends that register windowing doesn't exist whenever possible, which seems sensible to me 2014-08-04T05:02:00Z jasom: registe windowing is problematic to take advantage of in a smart way, particularly when you get multiple threads involved 2014-08-04T05:02:08Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-08-04T05:02:14Z jasom: my Dad's PhD thesis was about that 2014-08-04T05:02:57Z joshe: that's what I've hears 2014-08-04T05:03:00Z joshe: *heard 2014-08-04T05:03:54Z joshe: my only experience with register windowing was to fix clisp's terrible ffi on openbsd/sparc, so I may have a bit of a negative bias there 2014-08-04T05:08:24Z huza quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-04T05:10:18Z paul0 joined #lisp 2014-08-04T05:12:18Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-04T05:13:29Z drmeister: If the CLHS designates that a function like ARRAY-TOTAL-SIZE is a function is it permissible to define it as a generic function? 2014-08-04T05:15:36Z Zhivago: I believe that the implementation is permitted to implement functions as generic-functions. 2014-08-04T05:15:43Z phadthai: hmm I could be wrong, but I have the impression that implementations are free to use CLOS and generic functions more than what the standard requires, although that of course might affect performance, or maybe sometimes conformance 2014-08-04T05:15:54Z cmatei quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-04T05:16:11Z chu_ joined #lisp 2014-08-04T05:16:18Z chu quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-04T05:16:29Z phadthai: it might be more difficult to bootstrap too, as clos is generally implemented on top of a non-clos lisp (at least traditionally) 2014-08-04T05:19:37Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-08-04T05:21:10Z drmeister: phadthai: That's sort of what I'm dealing with. I implemented a simpler single-dispatch-generic-function to expose C++ methods to common lisp. I'm investigating elevating them to full generic-functions once CLOS is up and running. 2014-08-04T05:22:07Z Guthur` joined #lisp 2014-08-04T05:22:44Z drmeister: Thanks. 2014-08-04T05:26:59Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-08-04T05:28:24Z chu_ is now known as chu 2014-08-04T05:29:40Z wchun joined #lisp 2014-08-04T05:30:30Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-04T05:37:56Z mr-foobar joined #lisp 2014-08-04T05:40:36Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-08-04T05:43:38Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-08-04T05:47:43Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-08-04T05:51:12Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-08-04T05:51:33Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T05:55:33Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T05:56:52Z Ayey_ joined #lisp 2014-08-04T05:58:28Z manuel_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-04T05:58:51Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-04T06:07:26Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2014-08-04T06:08:25Z dan64 quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-08-04T06:09:03Z drmeister: Is there a way to get the list of host names like "SYS:" used in logical pathname translations? 2014-08-04T06:09:12Z dan64 joined #lisp 2014-08-04T06:09:38Z blahzik joined #lisp 2014-08-04T06:09:43Z H4ns: not portably 2014-08-04T06:10:41Z drmeister: Seems like a strange omission - thanks - I'll add my own then. 2014-08-04T06:11:22Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Exit IRC/Hibernate) 2014-08-04T06:11:28Z manuel_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-04T06:13:08Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-04T06:15:33Z optikalmouse quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T06:15:38Z Ayey_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-04T06:16:32Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2014-08-04T06:22:37Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-08-04T06:22:37Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2014-08-04T06:22:37Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-08-04T06:28:08Z MoALTz_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-04T06:28:27Z blahzik quit (Quit: blahzik) 2014-08-04T06:30:06Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-08-04T06:30:57Z momo-reina joined #lisp 2014-08-04T06:39:23Z Guthur quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-08-04T06:44:20Z Okasu joined #lisp 2014-08-04T06:44:29Z MrWoohoo2 joined #lisp 2014-08-04T06:49:06Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0-rc1) 2014-08-04T06:50:41Z Cymew joined #lisp 2014-08-04T06:51:29Z pranavrc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-04T06:52:12Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-04T06:52:37Z momo-reina quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-04T06:58:45Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-08-04T06:58:45Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2014-08-04T06:58:45Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-08-04T07:02:43Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-04T07:05:44Z pgomes joined #lisp 2014-08-04T07:06:40Z yacks quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-04T07:07:42Z optikalmouse joined #lisp 2014-08-04T07:08:32Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-08-04T07:10:09Z Ayey_ joined #lisp 2014-08-04T07:11:38Z varjag joined #lisp 2014-08-04T07:15:12Z mrSpec quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-08-04T07:16:32Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-04T07:17:10Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-08-04T07:18:48Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-08-04T07:20:59Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-04T07:21:38Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-04T07:22:37Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2014-08-04T07:22:39Z pt1_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-04T07:22:54Z pt1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-04T07:23:06Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-08-04T07:27:48Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-08-04T07:30:39Z JuniorRoy joined #lisp 2014-08-04T07:31:18Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-08-04T07:33:03Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-08-04T07:33:28Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-08-04T07:36:09Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-08-04T07:39:24Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-08-04T07:43:46Z arenz joined #lisp 2014-08-04T07:43:51Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-04T07:47:42Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-08-04T07:50:42Z Beetny joined #lisp 2014-08-04T07:52:38Z ndrei quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-08-04T07:54:37Z hitecnologys: I was wondering around Cliki and I found this GTFL thing. It looks pretty nice but I'm used to thinking that everything that looks nice is in fact a trap. Has anyone ever used this thing in practice? Does it have any hidden fun stuff? 2014-08-04T07:54:54Z joe-w-bimedina quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2014-08-04T07:55:01Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-04T07:56:57Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-08-04T07:59:52Z loke: What is GTFL? 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2014-08-04T13:11:52Z mikaelj: hello beach! long time no see. 2014-08-04T13:11:54Z mikaelj: how are you? 2014-08-04T13:11:55Z KarlDscc joined #lisp 2014-08-04T13:12:32Z beach: mikaelj: Yes, long time. I am fine. And you? 2014-08-04T13:12:34Z tadni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-04T13:13:10Z mikaelj: beach, glad to hear. I'm fine too. hacking on fun stuff. how's work with the CL library replacement going? 2014-08-04T13:13:35Z beach: Which one? :) 2014-08-04T13:13:44Z mikaelj: I can't remember the name! 2014-08-04T13:13:47Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-04T13:13:59Z mikaelj: SICL. 2014-08-04T13:14:00Z beach: minion: Please tell mikaelj about SICL! 2014-08-04T13:14:00Z minion: mikaelj: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL 2014-08-04T13:14:24Z mikaelj: Oh, here we go. Thanks. 2014-08-04T13:14:41Z beach: mikaelj: I have three papers related to SICL accepted at ILC, so I'll be there presenting them. 2014-08-04T13:15:19Z mikaelj: beach, nice, saw the slides. 2014-08-04T13:16:01Z beach: mikaelj: What about you? What are you up to these days? 2014-08-04T13:16:47Z Ayey_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-04T13:17:00Z beach: minion: Please tell mikaelj about CLIMatis! 2014-08-04T13:17:00Z minion: mikaelj: CLIMatis: CLIMatis is an implementation of CLIM3, an updated version of CLIM II. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/CLIMatis 2014-08-04T13:17:01Z mikaelj: beach, I'm waiting for my examiner to review my master's thesis, and hacking away on various small projects. 2014-08-04T13:17:16Z beach: mikaelj: Great! 2014-08-04T13:17:49Z beach: mikaelj: The thesis is all that's left to do? 2014-08-04T13:18:30Z mikaelj: beach, thesis and an exam-- but I'm not overly worried about the exam. Big part is the thesis. It's nice not to think about the thesis all the time. 2014-08-04T13:18:48Z beach: Sure. 2014-08-04T13:20:12Z pranavrc quit 2014-08-04T13:20:57Z beach: The main thing I am doing know related to SICL is an LLVM-like library, but for CL. I call it "Cleavir". Think of it as an implementation-independent compiler if you want. 2014-08-04T13:21:11Z GuilOooo joined #lisp 2014-08-04T13:21:39Z beach: I am also working with moore33 on CLIMatis to get presentation types in there and simplified with respect to CLIM II. 2014-08-04T13:21:59Z beach: mikaelj: And my new book just came out in Swedish. :) 2014-08-04T13:22:02Z mikaelj: Cleavir sounds quite nifty. 2014-08-04T13:22:09Z mikaelj: beach, new book? oh? What's it called? 2014-08-04T13:22:34Z beach: "Introduktion till Datavetenskap" Can be found on Amazon, but also on major Swedish sites. 2014-08-04T13:22:48Z didi quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-04T13:22:51Z mikaelj: Congrats! 2014-08-04T13:22:58Z beach: Self published! :) 2014-08-04T13:23:15Z tadni joined #lisp 2014-08-04T13:23:32Z mikaelj: Yeah, Createspace? 2014-08-04T13:23:33Z ARM9: beach link? 2014-08-04T13:23:49Z beach: ARM9: To the Swedish book? 2014-08-04T13:23:52Z ARM9: yes 2014-08-04T13:23:58Z beach: Hold on... 2014-08-04T13:24:29Z beach: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Introduktion-till-Datavetenskap-Robert-Strandh/dp/1500380997/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1407158658&sr=8-1&keywords=Robert+Strandh 2014-08-04T13:24:33Z mikaelj: Yeah, found it. 2014-08-04T13:24:40Z mikaelj: (searched for "robert strandh" on bokfynd.nu) 2014-08-04T13:24:43Z ARM9: hah, beach, strandh, nice. 2014-08-04T13:24:44Z beach: Yeah. 2014-08-04T13:25:07Z juanlas joined #lisp 2014-08-04T13:25:25Z beach: This course will use it: http://www.ida.liu.se/~729G04/info/kurslitteratur.shtml 2014-08-04T13:27:49Z mikaelj: *nod* 2014-08-04T13:27:57Z mikaelj: Python and Strandh. 2014-08-04T13:28:18Z seangrov` joined #lisp 2014-08-04T13:28:33Z mikaelj: Nice to get recognition. :) 2014-08-04T13:28:36Z gendl_ joined #lisp 2014-08-04T13:28:39Z gingerale- joined #lisp 2014-08-04T13:29:04Z AntiSpamMeta2 joined #lisp 2014-08-04T13:29:04Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Killed (cameron.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2014-08-04T13:29:04Z AntiSpamMeta2 is now known as AntiSpamMeta 2014-08-04T13:29:54Z Guthur`` joined #lisp 2014-08-04T13:29:55Z beach` joined #lisp 2014-08-04T13:30:17Z Guthur: nice, congrats beach 2014-08-04T13:30:34Z beach quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-08-04T13:30:38Z beach` is now known as beach 2014-08-04T13:30:40Z tadni` joined #lisp 2014-08-04T13:30:57Z beach: Guthur: Thanks! 2014-08-04T13:31:04Z Guthur: umm that reminds me, has anyone checked out http://learnlispthehardway.org/book/ 2014-08-04T13:31:08Z gendl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T13:31:08Z j_king quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T13:31:08Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T13:31:08Z phadthai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T13:31:08Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T13:31:08Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T13:31:09Z tadni quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-04T13:31:09Z gendl_ is now known as gendl 2014-08-04T13:31:09Z gingerale- is now known as gingerale 2014-08-04T13:31:12Z phadthai_ joined #lisp 2014-08-04T13:31:23Z Guthur` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T13:31:23Z jackdaniel quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T13:31:23Z copec quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T13:31:23Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T13:31:28Z ivan\ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-04T13:31:29Z Guthur: i seen on hackernews a while back, which sort of killed his servers, and forgot to check on it again 2014-08-04T13:31:30Z copec_ joined #lisp 2014-08-04T13:31:39Z jackdaniel joined #lisp 2014-08-04T13:31:44Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-08-04T13:31:54Z copec_ is now known as copec 2014-08-04T13:32:03Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2014-08-04T13:32:09Z j_king joined #lisp 2014-08-04T13:32:13Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2014-08-04T13:32:49Z rpg joined #lisp 2014-08-04T13:33:25Z GuilOooo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-04T13:33:33Z GuilOooo joined #lisp 2014-08-04T13:33:38Z didi joined #lisp 2014-08-04T13:34:11Z Guthur: though it doesn't bode well that the first paragraph i glanced at had some FUD 2014-08-04T13:35:00Z beach: First time I see it. 2014-08-04T13:35:03Z Guthur: "Specifically, such languages as Swift, Python, C++11, and Java 8 have been boasting recently about their ground-breaking new features, such as generics, functional programming constructs, lambda expressions, streams, and tail-call optimization, to name only a few. All of these features were established in the ANSI standardization of Common Lisp in the 1980s, plus countless more." 2014-08-04T13:35:19Z Guthur: last time i checked the CLHS does not specify TCO 2014-08-04T13:35:37Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-08-04T13:35:42Z dlowe: it wasn't standardized in the 80s, either 2014-08-04T13:35:56Z zwer: neither do any of the languages listed above, AFAIK 2014-08-04T13:35:58Z Guthur: dlowe: indeed, nice catch 2014-08-04T13:36:06Z beach: People can't tell the difference between a language and its implementation(s) anyway. 2014-08-04T13:37:06Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-08-04T13:37:50Z decent_ is now known as decent 2014-08-04T13:42:20Z beach: So it looks like this guy already has a publisher. 2014-08-04T13:46:29Z Xach: beach: what suggests that to you? 2014-08-04T13:47:03Z beach: "Complete, Awaiting Approval from Editor" 2014-08-04T13:48:04Z beach: Though, maybe not. That's just a hint. 2014-08-04T13:48:11Z Xach: I think it is just a hint. 2014-08-04T13:48:21Z beach: Yeah, could be. 2014-08-04T13:48:24Z Xach: It may be a relic from the template used. 2014-08-04T13:48:36Z beach: Ah, OK. 2014-08-04T13:49:41Z Guthur: I believe he based it off some template for Learn the Hard way that Zed Shaw has made available 2014-08-04T13:49:43Z beach: Xach: By the way, I sent a donation for Quicklisp. 2014-08-04T13:49:58Z Xach: beach: i saw it, thank you. 2014-08-04T13:50:00Z beach: Guthur: Aha. I see. 2014-08-04T13:50:14Z beach: Xach: Let me know if you need more. 2014-08-04T13:50:16Z beach: :) 2014-08-04T13:50:23Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-04T13:50:33Z segv- joined #lisp 2014-08-04T13:51:28Z dlowe: Xach: no donations by bitcoin? ;) 2014-08-04T13:52:06Z Xach: i am still a slave to the fiat currency 2014-08-04T13:52:22Z Guthur: what about donuts? 2014-08-04T13:52:55Z Xach: I am merely an indentured servant to donuts 2014-08-04T13:53:20Z JuanDaugherty: which I assume is the baked good, not the registry 2014-08-04T13:54:22Z JuanDaugherty: ( http://www.donuts.co/ ) 2014-08-04T13:55:00Z segv- quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-04T13:55:01Z dlowe: Xach: it's pretty easy to use it as a simple transfer mechanism. 2014-08-04T13:55:09Z JuanDaugherty is a slave to ... 2014-08-04T13:55:17Z JuanDaugherty: nussing! 2014-08-04T13:56:23Z Guthur: they opened a Krispy Kreme near where i live, this happened http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2014/07/17/1226992/096896-5a3c216a-0d59-11e4-b832-315b08e711dd.jpg 2014-08-04T13:56:32Z Guthur: begs believe tbh 2014-08-04T13:56:45Z Guthur: they're not even that nice imo 2014-08-04T13:59:00Z segv- joined #lisp 2014-08-04T14:00:10Z Zhivago: Probably nothing else to do. 2014-08-04T14:00:20Z beach: I think perhaps my intro programming book will be done before "Learning Lisp the Hard Way" 2014-08-04T14:00:40Z Zhivago: Although they seem to be wearing a lot of merchandise -- perhaps they were paid. 2014-08-04T14:01:13Z drmeister: beach: How is your compiler coming? How much analysis do you do on lexical variables to determine if they can go on the stack or need to be on the heap? 2014-08-04T14:01:24Z `JRG joined #lisp 2014-08-04T14:01:40Z beach: drmeister: I do that analysis. 2014-08-04T14:01:47Z Guthur: Zhivago: probably, there was a lot of PR like activity in the run up the opening 2014-08-04T14:01:57Z beach: drmeister: It is done on the MIR representation. 2014-08-04T14:02:03Z drmeister: What is MIR? 2014-08-04T14:02:19Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-08-04T14:02:20Z beach: Medium-level Intermediate Representation. 2014-08-04T14:02:25Z beach: As in the book by Muchnick. 2014-08-04T14:02:51Z beach: Basically a backend-independent flow graph. 2014-08-04T14:02:58Z stardiviner quit (Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/) 2014-08-04T14:02:58Z drmeister: Which book is that? I don't think I've seen that one. 2014-08-04T14:03:17Z beach: Advanced Compiler Design and Implementation. 2014-08-04T14:03:17Z JuanDaugherty: Guthur, you mean that hard way thing was slashdotted? 2014-08-04T14:03:19Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-04T14:03:44Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-08-04T14:03:45Z ggole: It's pretty well known 2014-08-04T14:03:53Z JuanDaugherty: looked like it needed work before it would be a proper thing 2014-08-04T14:04:08Z ggole: For containing a zillion optimisations and needing several hundred pages of errata 2014-08-04T14:04:35Z Guthur: JuanDaugherty: yep, but it does look rather unfinished still 2014-08-04T14:04:36Z beach: drmeister: I have mixed feelings about Muchnick's book. On the one hand, it contains algorithms for many standard optimization techniques. On the other hand, all those algorithms are written in a pseudo language that looks more like Fortran. 2014-08-04T14:04:44Z JuanDaugherty: 1st I heard of it 2014-08-04T14:05:12Z segv- quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-04T14:05:44Z JuanDaugherty: scaling for demand is pretty easy these days 2014-08-04T14:05:56Z JuanDaugherty: if not cheap 2014-08-04T14:06:04Z drmeister: beach: Isn't that always the case? Describe complex algorithm X in obscure language Y. 2014-08-04T14:06:21Z beach: With respect to Muchnick's book, I find myself reading the general description of an algorithm, then going to the research papers instead for the final algorithm. 2014-08-04T14:06:36Z Guthur: I don't think he was antcipating, but I only remembered it when i seen Zed Shaws Learn Python the hard way in a link beach psted 2014-08-04T14:06:39Z Guthur: posted* 2014-08-04T14:06:40Z drmeister: beach: What is the book title? 2014-08-04T14:06:48Z beach: drmeister: This guy doesn't know anything about pointers. He uses integer indexes instead. 2014-08-04T14:06:58Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-04T14:07:04Z beach: drmeister: Advanced Compiler Design and Implementation. 2014-08-04T14:08:18Z ggole: Instructions as indexes can be handy for very cheap dense tables 2014-08-04T14:08:29Z beach: drmeister: Basically, none of the algorithms of Muchnick's book are usable in the state they are presented. 2014-08-04T14:08:49Z ggole: Dunno about *presenting* things that way though 2014-08-04T14:08:58Z beach: ggole: It is possible that this book was written when memory was tighter than it is now. 2014-08-04T14:09:54Z ggole: Some modern compilers still seem to use small indexes to keep space down 2014-08-04T14:10:08Z amadsen joined #lisp 2014-08-04T14:10:11Z beach: Sounds like a maintenance nightmare. 2014-08-04T14:10:15Z ggole: luajit, the Java compilers (perhaps because of the byte code format, with which I'm not familiar) 2014-08-04T14:10:18Z drmeister: beach: We don't have it in our library anyway. 2014-08-04T14:10:42Z beach: drmeister: I am sure you can get them to order it. 2014-08-04T14:10:47Z drmeister: beach: Could you point me at a leading reference that you found useful? 2014-08-04T14:11:09Z vlnx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-04T14:11:14Z beach: drmeister: ? Reference to what? 2014-08-04T14:11:22Z beach: Muchnick's book? 2014-08-04T14:11:32Z drmeister: Escape analysis. 2014-08-04T14:11:47Z beach: Oh. That particular one, I invented. 2014-08-04T14:11:56Z ggole: Check out the Orbit papers. 2014-08-04T14:12:27Z drmeister: beach: The backend-independent flow graph? 2014-08-04T14:12:54Z beach: drmeister: I invented that one too. Hold on... 2014-08-04T14:13:57Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-04T14:14:34Z vlnx joined #lisp 2014-08-04T14:14:38Z beach: drmeister: http://metamodular.com/cleavir.pdf chapter 3. 2014-08-04T14:15:16Z JuanDaugherty: Holub's book on compiler construction was my fave 2014-08-04T14:15:36Z drmeister: I changed the calling convention in my Common Lisp system in the last couple of weeks to pass values on the stack rather than via heap allocated activation frames. It made everything run about 2x faster. It also opened the door to further optimizations wrt putting bindings on the stack rather than the heap. 2014-08-04T14:16:04Z beach: JuanDaugherty: Compiler Design in C? 2014-08-04T14:16:24Z ggole: Looks a bit like Click's graph IR, but with more links 2014-08-04T14:16:37Z JuanDaugherty: y, mainly because it has highly exposited top down and bottom up parsers with a visual debugger 2014-08-04T14:16:43Z zhangyh26258 joined #lisp 2014-08-04T14:16:55Z beach: ggole: Link? 2014-08-04T14:17:16Z JuanDaugherty: i.e. one's I actually used in paid work at D&B 2014-08-04T14:17:23Z ggole: Sec 2014-08-04T14:18:05Z drmeister: beach: That was the paper that you gave me before that you said wasn't finished. I deleted it when you told me that it wasn't finished. If I read it - I'll be influenced by the ideas. How should I proceed with this? 2014-08-04T14:18:34Z ggole: softlib.rice.edu/pub/CRPC-TRs/reports/CRPC-TR93366-S.pdf and also paperhub.s3.amazonaws.com/24842c95fb1bc5d7c5da2ec735e106f0.pdf 2014-08-04T14:18:41Z drmeister: I would attribute you if I used anything. 2014-08-04T14:19:05Z beach: drmeister: It still isn't finished. It is not a paper. It is publicly available documentation. 2014-08-04T14:19:17Z drmeister: ggole: I'll look at those - thanks! 2014-08-04T14:19:23Z beach: ggole: Thanks. 2014-08-04T14:19:44Z drmeister: beach: Oh, ok - thanks. 2014-08-04T14:19:50Z ggole: beach: there might be more differences than similarities, but the similarities are what stuck out for me. 2014-08-04T14:21:08Z JuanDaugherty: for theory I have Aho & Ullmans ancient 2 volumes 2014-08-04T14:22:05Z beach: ggole: Yes, I see. I don't think I invented anything here. I just used a pretty standard graph representation of instructions that I think are useful for CL. 2014-08-04T14:22:54Z drmeister: Currently I have S-expressions -> LLVM-IR/Native code. I have to add some intermediate layers to my compiler to be able to carry out these sorts of analysis and optimization. 2014-08-04T14:24:17Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Exit IRC/Hibernate) 2014-08-04T14:25:07Z ggole: beach: hard to invent anything in such a heavily studied space 2014-08-04T14:25:22Z ggole: Easy to reinvent stuff though 2014-08-04T14:25:52Z joe-w-bimedina joined #lisp 2014-08-04T14:27:02Z beach: ggole: Yeah, I don't claim originality. 2014-08-04T14:27:31Z beach: Just applying existing knowledge to CL. 2014-08-04T14:27:53Z dim: H4ns: https://github.com/edicl/hunchentoot/blob/master/lispworks.lisp seems to be executable, is it intended? 2014-08-04T14:28:19Z drmeister: I like that aspect of it - it gives me comfort. When I want white-knuckle, nobody knows what's going on, bleeding edge science I always have my chemistry. 2014-08-04T14:28:48Z beach: Heh! 2014-08-04T14:29:16Z Zhivago: You might also like Appel's book. 2014-08-04T14:29:40Z beach: Right, I should order one or more of those. 2014-08-04T14:29:55Z ggole: His papers are worth a look 2014-08-04T14:29:58Z drmeister: Zhivago: I have read Appel's book - it leads up to escape analysis but I couldn't find a good description of how to carry it out. 2014-08-04T14:30:21Z ggole: I have the ML version of his "Modern Compiler in $LANG" book too, it's not bad 2014-08-04T14:30:26Z pt1__ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-04T14:31:36Z drmeister: I better run - bbl 2014-08-04T14:31:44Z Shaftoe___ joined #lisp 2014-08-04T14:32:02Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-04T14:33:01Z Shaftoe___: ahoy all. What's my path of least resistance to multiplying a big num with a float (specifically a big num with the result of x^y which I currently get as a float via #'expt). 2014-08-04T14:33:22Z Shaftoe___: This is not for an app, it is for a "back of the enveloppe" calculation 2014-08-04T14:34:39Z dim: (* (expt x y) z)? 2014-08-04T14:34:44Z Shaftoe___: (also, using SBCL) 2014-08-04T14:34:49Z beach: Shaftoe___: Why does (* a b) not work? 2014-08-04T14:35:23Z Shaftoe___: "Too large to be represented as a SINGLE-FLOAT:" 2014-08-04T14:35:29Z Shaftoe___: it's a big num that is big. 2014-08-04T14:35:38Z beach: What about double float? 2014-08-04T14:35:56Z joe-w-bimedina: Is it ok to put this: (declaim (optimize (speed 3) (compilation-speed 3) (safety 3) (debug 3))) at the top of a 5000 line .lisp file in my library, full of defuns and defcfuns, and then go through the file eliminating all optimization warnings until they are all gone, would this be safe, assuming the (declaim (optimize (speed 3) (compilation-speed 3) (safety 3) (debug 3))) was above(not inside) all the defcfuns/defuns. is this safe, is this 2014-08-04T14:35:56Z joe-w-bimedina: how optimizing is supposed to be done or do I put the declaim inside each defcfun one by one and optimize that way. 2014-08-04T14:35:59Z Shaftoe___: how would I do that? How do I convert a big num to double float? 2014-08-04T14:36:10Z beach: (coerce x 'double-float) 2014-08-04T14:36:47Z Shaftoe___: ah. thanks beach. That did the trick 2014-08-04T14:37:00Z beach: Easy! :) 2014-08-04T14:37:15Z Shaftoe___: best problem evar! =) 2014-08-04T14:38:31Z Shaftoe___ quit (Quit: Shaftoe___) 2014-08-04T14:38:42Z zhangyh26258 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-04T14:40:19Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: Once at the beginning of the file is fine. 2014-08-04T14:43:38Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: The compiler is not going to be able to do much about that though. You are basically saying "everything is important." This is kind of contradicting information. 2014-08-04T14:44:18Z joe-w-bimedina: Ok so then, I would have to get rid of all the style warnings as I put stuff in, that is doable, but can i ask you is it always possible to get rid of every optimization warning and have the code still run as originally intentioned, ie have you ever run into a warning, that if you folllowed the instructions and got rid of it, the code wouldnt work right.... 2014-08-04T14:46:51Z abeaumont quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-04T14:47:26Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2014-08-04T14:47:26Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: It might not be possible to get rid of all the optimization notes without altering what the program is doing. Why are you optimizing? Do you have too long execution times? Too long compilation times? 2014-08-04T14:48:18Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm just learning now, I'm going to follow everybody's advice and optimize later 2014-08-04T14:48:20Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-08-04T14:48:36Z uzo joined #lisp 2014-08-04T14:48:38Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: So why do you want to optimize now? 2014-08-04T14:48:59Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm practicing for when it is time 2014-08-04T14:49:19Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: Do you have unacceptably long execution times? 2014-08-04T14:49:58Z joe-w-bimedina: not too bad, but I would like to get as close to C++ speed as possible 2014-08-04T14:50:35Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: Do you have unacceptably long compile times? 2014-08-04T14:51:33Z GuilOooo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T14:51:44Z joe-w-bimedina: its not bad, I'm just practicing writing good code, honestly I beat C++ once in speed and I would like to do it again 2014-08-04T14:51:52Z joe-w-bimedina: so if I put the declaim at the head of the file, when I start my library up, i'll probably have some optimization warnings flashing by, is this normal, do alot of libraries have this 2014-08-04T14:52:12Z joe-w-bimedina: warnings they cant get rid of and just leave 2014-08-04T14:52:36Z beach: It's pretty normal. It means you didn't supply enough information for the compiler to be able to optimize at the level you desire. 2014-08-04T14:52:58Z zacharias quit (Quit: Bye!) 2014-08-04T14:53:22Z GuilOooo joined #lisp 2014-08-04T14:53:35Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: I don't think you should attempt this, given your level of knowledge of CL. If you do what it takes to get speed comparable to C++, you won't be able to debug your program because it will be as unsafe as a C++ program would be. 2014-08-04T14:53:36Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: people probably have told you hundreds of times that you're doing it wrong. Don't optimize until you have working code or I'll go into infinite loop. 2014-08-04T14:54:10Z zadock joined #lisp 2014-08-04T14:54:15Z hitecnologys: s/I'll/it'll/ 2014-08-04T14:54:20Z joe-w-bimedina: hitecnologys: I just posted up above "I'm practicing for when it is time" 2014-08-04T14:54:37Z joe-w-bimedina: so c++ is unsafe? 2014-08-04T14:54:45Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: it doesn't look like you're practicing to me. 2014-08-04T14:54:58Z joe-w-bimedina: why do you say that? 2014-08-04T14:55:19Z joe-w-bimedina: I havent put anything into my file yet, just REPL stuff 2014-08-04T14:55:33Z joe-w-bimedina: is waht I am doing 2014-08-04T14:55:42Z joe-w-bimedina: gathering info 2014-08-04T14:55:45Z hitecnologys: Because my observations suggest that over half of your questions here are realated to speed. 2014-08-04T14:56:15Z joe-w-bimedina: just building up info so I can code good too as I go along 2014-08-04T14:56:48Z hitecnologys: Good != fast. 2014-08-04T14:57:06Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-08-04T14:57:13Z hitecnologys: You're concerned about execution time too much. 2014-08-04T14:57:59Z joe-w-bimedina: since all my code is working so far, would it be ok to optimize , hitecnologys: , or should I wait to have a complete library? 2014-08-04T14:58:15Z hitecnologys: I'd start with writing comment messages that make sense. 2014-08-04T14:58:21Z varjag quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-04T14:58:28Z kutsuya1: optimizing can be like painting yourself into a corner 2014-08-04T14:59:11Z joe-w-bimedina: I just started using disassemble, I am going to focus on that too as well as speed...... oh I get that so wait til the end right 2014-08-04T14:59:20Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: I am telling you. If you want that kind of optimization, you will likely have to make part of your unsafe. Then you can no longer debug it, and you will come here and be a PITA about that. 2014-08-04T14:59:37Z kutsuya1: maybe...just wait for the computers to get faster. ;) 2014-08-04T14:59:39Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: And, yes, C++ is inherently unsafe. 2014-08-04T15:00:26Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: I suggest you read some papers by Didier Verna about how to get CL to give code as fast as C. 2014-08-04T15:00:42Z abhi joined #lisp 2014-08-04T15:00:44Z joe-w-bimedina: PITA?...ok thanks beach: I had no idea it was unsafe, you'd think a strongly typed language would be secure 2014-08-04T15:01:05Z beach: PITA = Pain In The Ass. 2014-08-04T15:01:24Z blackwolf joined #lisp 2014-08-04T15:01:33Z abhi: hi joe 2014-08-04T15:02:00Z Zhivago: Well, security is largely a matter of a lack of undefined behavior, and perhaps sandboxing support. 2014-08-04T15:02:18Z kutsuya1: Think of code as being more for humans than for the computer. People have to be able to read the code for years. 2014-08-04T15:02:31Z abhi: hi zhivago 2014-08-04T15:02:34Z abhi: hi kutsuya 2014-08-04T15:02:40Z joe-w-bimedina: has anyone ever got a defcfun to go as fast as the C code underneath? 2014-08-04T15:02:43Z kutsuya1: abhi, hello 2014-08-04T15:02:49Z joe-w-bimedina: hi abhi:) 2014-08-04T15:02:59Z abhi: joe i think i know the answer to ur question 2014-08-04T15:03:02Z abhi: i have 2014-08-04T15:03:56Z beach: Uh oh. 2014-08-04T15:04:09Z abhi: what was that for beach? 2014-08-04T15:06:31Z `JRG quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-08-04T15:06:47Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks for everybody's help on this I do appreciate it...yea this was a good read: http://www.iaeng.org/IJCS/issues_v32/issue_4/IJCS_32_4_19.pdf 2014-08-04T15:08:47Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-08-04T15:09:34Z eudoxia quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-04T15:09:54Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-08-04T15:10:01Z nalbyuites__ is now known as nalbyuites 2014-08-04T15:11:17Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: why don't you just write it in C then? 2014-08-04T15:11:40Z marsbot is now known as marsam 2014-08-04T15:12:19Z joe-w-bimedina: I love Lisp, just don't want to spend alot of time in other environments 2014-08-04T15:12:38Z oGMo: really? you're spending a lot of time in irc asking hypotheticals :p 2014-08-04T15:12:51Z abhi: lol good question oGMo 2014-08-04T15:13:07Z kutsuya1: joe-w-bimedina: How will you broaden your thoughts, if you never leave your home? 2014-08-04T15:13:18Z oGMo: if you need it faster, you can make it faster; if not, don't worry 2014-08-04T15:13:59Z oGMo: in theory you can make a C thread that sits and shovels data out of a place in memory on demand and never even make a foreign call 2014-08-04T15:14:36Z oGMo: and that's utterly irrelevant until you have actual code with an actual problem with actual benchmarks showing what's taking all your time 2014-08-04T15:15:11Z kutsuya1: joe-w-bimedina: I say this because I regret not doing so myself. heh 2014-08-04T15:15:11Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm not worrying , just getting enough data to make a good plan.....oGMo: can you expand on the C thread idea 2014-08-04T15:15:25Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-08-04T15:15:41Z oGMo: no, i will not, because if it's not obvious to you then you don't need it anyway 2014-08-04T15:16:37Z joe-w-bimedina: kutsuyal: I'm ok , I really do enjoy this, thanks though:) 2014-08-04T15:18:11Z przl joined #lisp 2014-08-04T15:18:37Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-08-04T15:18:52Z joe-w-bimedina: oGMo: well I have a function that if I just wrote in C it might be alot faster so I might do that, but it is one of the functions I made my self so that is probably the best plan 2014-08-04T15:20:08Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-08-04T15:20:14Z abhi quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-04T15:20:34Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-08-04T15:21:31Z kutsuya1 is now known as kutsuya 2014-08-04T15:22:57Z kutsuya quit (Changing host) 2014-08-04T15:22:58Z kutsuya joined #lisp 2014-08-04T15:23:08Z abhi joined #lisp 2014-08-04T15:23:13Z abhi left #lisp 2014-08-04T15:24:01Z Guthur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-04T15:24:44Z kutsuya: joe-w-bimedina: kool :) I remember the good ole days of counting opcode ticks... and using shift & add instead of multiply. 2014-08-04T15:25:45Z joe-w-bimedina: it does sound fun kutsuya: 2014-08-04T15:26:18Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-08-04T15:31:51Z abeaumont joined #lisp 2014-08-04T15:33:42Z blackwolf quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-04T15:34:58Z k-stz joined #lisp 2014-08-04T15:36:59Z varjag joined #lisp 2014-08-04T15:43:12Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-04T15:43:53Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-08-04T15:44:11Z sohail joined #lisp 2014-08-04T15:44:13Z lduros joined #lisp 2014-08-04T15:47:10Z dsevilla joined #lisp 2014-08-04T15:47:42Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-04T15:48:52Z test1600 joined #lisp 2014-08-04T15:51:15Z zophy joined #lisp 2014-08-04T15:54:56Z dsevilla quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-04T16:00:10Z spockokt: greetings lisp 2014-08-04T16:00:21Z beach: Hello spockokt. 2014-08-04T16:00:30Z spockokt: hello beach , how goes it? 2014-08-04T16:00:31Z pgriffel joined #lisp 2014-08-04T16:00:44Z beach: spockokt: Pretty good. You? 2014-08-04T16:01:02Z drmeister is puzzled as to why CLASS-NAME is a generic function - it seems odd to make a simple operation a relatively more expensive generic function. 2014-08-04T16:01:27Z beach: drmeister: It's a reader, so generic. 2014-08-04T16:01:43Z beach: slot reader, that is. 2014-08-04T16:01:53Z spockokt: beach: alright just another day at the daily grind 2014-08-04T16:02:16Z drmeister: Slot readers are generally generic functions? 2014-08-04T16:02:18Z Sauvin quit (Quit: mIRC for Linux ain't all it's cracked up to be.) 2014-08-04T16:02:35Z beach: drmeister: For instances of standard-object, yes. 2014-08-04T16:02:42Z Sauvin joined #lisp 2014-08-04T16:03:21Z beach: drmeister: Essentially, when you write :reader x, it means writing a defmethod. 2014-08-04T16:03:55Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-08-04T16:04:13Z beach: drmeister: Besides, you must not have read my ILC paper in which I give a method for implementing slot readers that make them as fast as a non-generic version would be. 2014-08-04T16:04:58Z drmeister: beach: It's on my list of papers to read ;-) 2014-08-04T16:05:15Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-04T16:05:24Z beach: drmeister: Executive summary: Don't worry about generic dispatch anymore! :) 2014-08-04T16:05:36Z Xach: I remember that was a particular point of concern for frodef 2014-08-04T16:05:41Z drmeister: What was the title of that paper? 2014-08-04T16:05:56Z beach: Fast generic dispatch for Common Lisp. 2014-08-04T16:06:21Z beach: Xach: In what context? 2014-08-04T16:06:23Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-08-04T16:06:35Z beach: drmeister: In the program, I give a single talk for the 3 papers. 2014-08-04T16:06:49Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2014-08-04T16:06:49Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-08-04T16:07:47Z Xach: beach: movitz. he was at the level of cycle-counting, and iirc he was observing a small number of cycles for plain functions and hundreds of cycles for generic functions. 2014-08-04T16:08:03Z beach: Xach: I see. 2014-08-04T16:08:10Z Xach: not just observing, but feeling like that was a mandatory distinction between the two per the requirements of the spec 2014-08-04T16:08:22Z beach: drmeister: You can come to ILC and listen to the talk. That way you don't have to read the paper. :) 2014-08-04T16:08:31Z drmeister: beach: I did read that one. 2014-08-04T16:08:40Z Xach: as a user, i don't think about such things most of the time, but he was working at a low level in multiple respects 2014-08-04T16:09:43Z beach: Xach: Yes, I remember. He also had a pretty clever call protocol. 2014-08-04T16:09:52Z drmeister: beach: I'd love to but I can't afford to travel at the moment. 2014-08-04T16:10:09Z beach: drmeister: :( 2014-08-04T16:10:22Z Xach: It is such a short drive for you :( 2014-08-04T16:11:12Z drmeister: Also, without having released my CL compiler yet I still feel like a nobody. I'm tired of just talking about it. 2014-08-04T16:11:27Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-04T16:12:14Z Xach: That's a way better situation than having done your last useful Lisp work in the 80s 2014-08-04T16:12:25Z beach: :) 2014-08-04T16:12:43Z pjb: drmeister: why not release pre-releases? 2014-08-04T16:12:57Z pjb: or just push on http://gitorious.org/ ? 2014-08-04T16:13:47Z Ralt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-04T16:13:58Z segv- joined #lisp 2014-08-04T16:14:30Z drmeister: It's in the hands of our IP people at the moment - I work at a University - I felt compelled to submit my request to open-source it for their approval. 2014-08-04T16:15:14Z drmeister: I don't know if I had to do that, they don't have any familiarity with open source software as far as I can tell. 2014-08-04T16:15:24Z YDJX quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-04T16:15:25Z Xach: I hope it works out in a good way. 2014-08-04T16:15:36Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-08-04T16:16:40Z pjb: drmeister: ECL is LGPL, so if at any time you distribute it, you will have to distribute the sources with it anyways! 2014-08-04T16:17:15Z pjb: drmeister: that means that if you have merged IP of yours with it, and if you want to keep it, then you won't be able to distribute it. 2014-08-04T16:17:27Z drmeister: It will - I think it's just their process. They have to come to the conclusion that they can't make money off of it. 2014-08-04T16:17:38Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-08-04T16:17:43Z pjb: Bah! 2014-08-04T16:18:36Z przl joined #lisp 2014-08-04T16:19:42Z drmeister: pjb: ECLs LGPL means I distribute the source of the ECL Common Lisp source code. That's separate from all of the C++ and Common Lisp source code that I wrote. 2014-08-04T16:20:15Z Bike: i thought lgpl was more contagious than that. 2014-08-04T16:20:25Z beach thinks Bike is right. 2014-08-04T16:20:41Z drmeister: I even compile and dynamically link the compiled ECL CL source code - so I think it would be ok. 2014-08-04T16:21:29Z fe[nl]ix: drmeister: are you an employee of the university ? 2014-08-04T16:22:13Z eudoxia: LLGPL allows proprietary use, right? 2014-08-04T16:22:24Z eudoxia: since it's essentially LGPL 2014-08-04T16:22:30Z beach: eudoxia: But only for client code. 2014-08-04T16:22:57Z drmeister: I mean I think my system would be compatible with the ECL LGPL code if my code had either a more restrictive or more liberal license. I proposed the University of Illinois license - used by LLVM. 2014-08-04T16:23:00Z eudoxia: beach: code that uses the library, as opposed to modifying it? 2014-08-04T16:23:12Z beach: eudoxia: Yes. 2014-08-04T16:23:30Z eudoxia: that makes sense 2014-08-04T16:23:30Z drmeister: fe[nl]ix: Yes, I'm an employee of Temple University. 2014-08-04T16:23:49Z fe[nl]ix: drmeister: do you intend to use that compiler only within the university ? 2014-08-04T16:23:55Z drmeister: No. 2014-08-04T16:24:02Z drmeister: I'm going to open source it. 2014-08-04T16:24:08Z segv- quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-04T16:24:35Z segv- joined #lisp 2014-08-04T16:25:32Z drmeister: Here's the plan. I open source my C++ code and my Common Lisp code. I make available the ever-so slightly modified source for the ECL CL code which is LGPL. Since I dynamically link the ECL CL code into my system, my system can have whatever license I want. If anyone sees a problem with that - please tell me. 2014-08-04T16:26:16Z drmeister: The ECL LGPL doesn't force me to use LGPL because I dynamically link to the compiled LGPL code. That's ok - right? 2014-08-04T16:26:39Z zwer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-04T16:26:45Z dlowe: I believe the LGPL doesn't even mind if you statically link 2014-08-04T16:26:58Z dim: drmeister: my understanding is that is ok, yeah 2014-08-04T16:27:11Z schjetne: As far as I can tell, but why not just use LGPL? It allows for everything but the most evil of uses. 2014-08-04T16:27:12Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-04T16:27:31Z dim: I would advice for WTFPL, ISC, MIT and BSD in that order, personnaly 2014-08-04T16:27:44Z dim: you will find AGPL and GPLv3 proponents around here too 2014-08-04T16:27:50Z Bike: probably the IP lawyer people will have some exciting opinions. 2014-08-04T16:27:56Z azynheira joined #lisp 2014-08-04T16:28:01Z schjetne: dim: is it very important that people be able to distribute proprietary forks? 2014-08-04T16:28:05Z drmeister: schjetne: Companies don't like LGPL. LLVM/Clang are what they are today largely because of the restrictions of the GPL. 2014-08-04T16:28:31Z dlowe: on the other hand, we wouldn't have all our nice custom router firmwares if it weren't for the GPL 2014-08-04T16:28:34Z schjetne: I'm a company and I quite like LGPL, GPL and even AGPL 2014-08-04T16:28:36Z dlowe: It's a tradeoff. 2014-08-04T16:28:38Z dim: schjetne: it's more about culture I guess, mostly lisp systems I've stumbled upon have a BSD-like licencing (I prefer the ISC spelling of it) 2014-08-04T16:30:17Z rick-monster quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-04T16:30:32Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-08-04T16:31:08Z schjetne: If you need to have the AGPL restrictions waved, for the companies that use AGPL as a way to charge for their product, the licensing cost usually isn't more than what it would cost to license comparable proprietary product, yet you still have the benefit of having the source. 2014-08-04T16:31:18Z rick-monster joined #lisp 2014-08-04T16:31:46Z schjetne: A pretty good deal in my book 2014-08-04T16:32:22Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-04T16:32:53Z schjetne: Not that I endorse crippleware, then they will just eat your patches 2014-08-04T16:33:46Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-08-04T16:37:48Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-08-04T16:38:03Z segv- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T16:38:32Z segv- joined #lisp 2014-08-04T16:38:37Z Xach: dim: It will be interesting to see if that changes if some company gets a big obvious public win 2014-08-04T16:39:45Z rick-monster quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-04T16:43:32Z drmeister: The University of Illinois license looks just like the BSD license but it has statements about not using my name to promote products. 2014-08-04T16:43:45Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-08-04T16:44:52Z segv- quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-04T16:44:58Z wizzo quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-08-04T16:46:32Z JuanDaugherty: yeah llvm is at champaign/urbana i think 2014-08-04T16:46:46Z JuanDaugherty: prolly not the developers choice 2014-08-04T16:46:56Z schjetne: drmeister: is that a serious risk, though? 2014-08-04T16:48:00Z drmeister: schjetne: Is it? Dunno - it seemed a bit more thoughtful than the BSD and it's the one that LLVM uses - so why not? 2014-08-04T16:48:45Z drmeister: I don't want to spend hours reading about and weighing the hypotheticals on a license. I just want to pick one and move forward. 2014-08-04T16:49:13Z milosn quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-08-04T16:49:17Z milosn_ joined #lisp 2014-08-04T16:49:25Z pjb: drmeister: the question is how much of a "derived work" your result is. 2014-08-04T16:50:07Z pjb: From what you've talked so far, such as the heavy modifications on the structure of ECL, I would say that yours is a very "derived work" of ECL, and then the LGPL will apply in this respect. 2014-08-04T16:50:14Z schjetne: My main concern is that people who make and distribute changes treat the community as fairly as they were treated by allowing to make use of the program in the first place 2014-08-04T16:50:24Z pjb: drmeister: If you took an unmodified libecl.so and just linked with that, it would be a different matter. 2014-08-04T16:51:52Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-04T16:52:13Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-08-04T16:52:15Z test1600 joined #lisp 2014-08-04T16:52:27Z schjetne: drmeister: also consider giving a patent license to the software as well. The Apache 2.0 and (L)GPLv3 licenses provide for this 2014-08-04T16:52:45Z drmeister: pjb: Is it? I've written about 150,000 lines of C++ and about 10,000 lines of Common Lisp (my compiler). The ECL Common Lisp code that I use consists of about 30,000 lines of code. 2014-08-04T16:53:42Z Ralt joined #lisp 2014-08-04T16:54:08Z xk05 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-04T16:54:28Z mvilleneuve_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-08-04T16:54:42Z drmeister: Of the ECL C code - I've taken pathname.d and unixfsys.d and rewritten them in C++ using my functions rather than ECL functions. 2014-08-04T16:55:10Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2014-08-04T16:56:37Z JuanDaugherty: I just make everything I do (c) juan@acm.org and pass anybody else's thru as is 2014-08-04T16:56:55Z pjb: drmeister: What would be covered by the LGPL is only your modifications to ECL. If you can build it independently of your C++ code, then it'll be ok. 2014-08-04T16:57:36Z pjb: This is this derived ECL I was talking about when saying that you should publish it, to stop feeling like a nobod ;-) 2014-08-04T16:57:59Z drmeister: Hmmm, What do you mean by: "If you can build it independently of your C++ code, then it'll be ok"? 2014-08-04T16:58:33Z jasom: there is ambiguity with lgpl, so this is largely speculation 2014-08-04T16:58:55Z jasom: and in the US, for the most part, legal ambiguities don't get resolved until somebody sues somebody else 2014-08-04T16:58:57Z marsam is now known as marsbot 2014-08-04T16:59:50Z pjb: If you can structure your project in distinct modules, that can be built separately, then you can more easily have distinct licenses for them. If you can build a libDrmeisterECL.so , and use it with your C++ code to build your final result, then it can be argued that only the code used to build libDrmeisterECL.so is under LGPL and needs to be distributed as such. The C++ code can then be distribued under another license, possibly eve 2014-08-04T16:59:50Z pjb: proprietary. 2014-08-04T16:59:57Z jasom: The FSF was able to convince the creator of clisp that clisp is a derived work of the readline library; I have my doubts that would have stood up in court. 2014-08-04T17:00:20Z jasom: (though that was GPL, not LGPL) 2014-08-04T17:00:24Z eudoxia: why didn't bruno haible just remove readline and deal with it or something 2014-08-04T17:00:39Z pjb: Because he wanted it, and didn't mind the GPL. 2014-08-04T17:01:16Z jasom: eudoxia: I read the e-mail thread a few years back; it was roughly "well I hadn't really decided how I wanted to license this anyway, so I'll just use the GPL" 2014-08-04T17:02:07Z eudoxia: ah 2014-08-04T17:02:18Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-08-04T17:03:02Z jasom: http://clisp.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/clisp/clisp/doc/Why-CLISP-is-under-GPL 2014-08-04T17:03:27Z schjetne: JuanDaugherty: so you don't give permission to make any copies or derivatives whatsoever? 2014-08-04T17:04:11Z JuanDaugherty: i'm silent about it 2014-08-04T17:04:30Z JuanDaugherty: other than to reserve my rights and those whose IP I use 2014-08-04T17:04:46Z JuanDaugherty: got a damn class war goin on here 2014-08-04T17:05:42Z schjetne: What if you use something under a copyleft license? 2014-08-04T17:06:17Z JuanDaugherty: this was unclear: "and pass anybody else's thru"? 2014-08-04T17:06:55Z JuanDaugherty: if I can't do that, and make the original part copyright me, I don't use 2014-08-04T17:07:43Z marsbot is now known as marsam 2014-08-04T17:07:54Z JuanDaugherty: or rather don't modify 2014-08-04T17:08:02Z JuanDaugherty: by far the more common case 2014-08-04T17:08:48Z schjetne: Any particular reason for keeping the code proprietary? 2014-08-04T17:09:43Z JuanDaugherty: other than the one given, no 2014-08-04T17:10:07Z drmeister: Hmm, ECL C source code is about 60,000 lines of code. Mine is about 150,000 lines - I wonder why that is. 2014-08-04T17:10:53Z JuanDaugherty: line terminations autosuspect 2014-08-04T17:11:15Z tajjada joined #lisp 2014-08-04T17:11:33Z tadni` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T17:12:12Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-04T17:12:48Z shridhar joined #lisp 2014-08-04T17:13:24Z drmeister: Not that C++ is a bloated monster? I'm ready to believe that. 2014-08-04T17:14:50Z banjara joined #lisp 2014-08-04T17:14:52Z JuanDaugherty: you mean a compiler? 2014-08-04T17:15:15Z rpg quit (Quit: rpg) 2014-08-04T17:15:53Z JuanDaugherty: my most recent paid c++ was an EPP client-server 2014-08-04T17:16:37Z JuanDaugherty: it's in effect the universal machine lang of this time 2014-08-04T17:17:01Z sheilong joined #lisp 2014-08-04T17:17:35Z JuanDaugherty: http://dnseppus.meansofproduction.biz/doc/about/ you can access the FishEye/git code with drde/d00f 2014-08-04T17:20:46Z JuanDaugherty: so in that case ARI is the main 3rd party IP entity, but there are a slew of others, xerces, xalan, usw 2014-08-04T17:21:04Z JuanDaugherty: not to mention the RFCs whatever they are 2014-08-04T17:23:28Z sohail quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-08-04T17:23:56Z clop quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-04T17:24:12Z clop joined #lisp 2014-08-04T17:24:47Z zeitue quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-04T17:26:23Z drmeister: JuanDaugherty: I don't follow. What I meant was the amount of C++ code, written in C++ style required to replicate a similar C program is at least 2x. 2014-08-04T17:27:22Z JuanDaugherty: ah OK, not sure what you mean by "C++ style" but if you say so 2014-08-04T17:28:39Z JuanDaugherty: kina like clos vs. straight cl 2014-08-04T17:28:58Z drmeister: Classes, virtual functions, templates, namespaces etc. 2014-08-04T17:29:23Z JuanDaugherty: that's not a style, that's the damn lang 2014-08-04T17:30:24Z JuanDaugherty: in the early years it was easily dismissed as just a preprocessor 2014-08-04T17:30:33Z JuanDaugherty: because it was 2014-08-04T17:31:35Z JuanDaugherty: also my first OOP was st, so was snooty about that for a while 2014-08-04T17:35:07Z drmeister: My first OOP was Smalltalk as well! I was just as snooty! 2014-08-04T17:35:28Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-04T17:36:20Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-04T17:36:47Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-08-04T17:38:40Z tadni joined #lisp 2014-08-04T17:39:13Z drmeister: Then I discovered generic functions and realized that single dispatch functions are but shadows on a cave wall. 2014-08-04T17:39:40Z JuanDaugherty: i guess the other thing we have in common is I ported KCL to OS/2 though I never did anything with it 2014-08-04T17:39:41Z drmeister: It's funny though, I hardly ever write generic functions that do more than single dispatch. 2014-08-04T17:40:07Z drmeister hardly ever = never 2014-08-04T17:40:59Z drmeister: Here to hoping that LLVM has a bit more staying power than OS/2 2014-08-04T17:41:24Z JuanDaugherty: KCL being unless I'm mistaken the common ancestor of a lot of -CLs 2014-08-04T17:41:31Z JuanDaugherty: including ECL 2014-08-04T17:41:33Z marsam is now known as marsbot 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Anyone have any anecdotal experience with it to share? 2014-08-04T20:09:02Z jasom: ChibaPet: I've heard it's similar to CLiCC 2014-08-04T20:09:15Z ggole quit 2014-08-04T20:09:19Z ChibaPet: Hm, never heard of CLiCC. I'll look at that. Thanks. 2014-08-04T20:10:04Z ChibaPet: Oh, hm. Seems very slightly different to my eye, but I've not dug in yet. 2014-08-04T20:10:22Z jasom: ChibaPet: I mean in terms of functionality, and how it works 2014-08-04T20:10:23Z blahzik quit (Quit: blahzik) 2014-08-04T20:10:27Z ChibaPet: I'm thinking particularly about glue to make mobile environments usable. 2014-08-04T20:10:34Z ChibaPet: Yeah, sounds reasonable. 2014-08-04T20:11:02Z jasom: As in you end up occasionally running into places where it's not really common-lisp, just a large subset of it. 2014-08-04T20:11:07Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-04T20:11:23Z ChibaPet: Yeah, they say as much. Hm. 2014-08-04T20:12:27Z didi quit (Quit: you can't /fire me, I /quit) 2014-08-04T20:12:47Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2014-08-04T20:12:53Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2014-08-04T20:15:33Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-08-04T20:16:11Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-04T20:17:47Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-08-04T20:18:04Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-04T20:18:15Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-08-04T20:21:53Z sohail joined #lisp 2014-08-04T20:23:21Z solidus_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-04T20:28:03Z blahzik joined #lisp 2014-08-04T20:30:32Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2014-08-04T20:30:38Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-04T20:32:17Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-04T20:32:26Z slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 2014-08-04T20:34:03Z kyubiko joined #lisp 2014-08-04T20:34:15Z kyubiko quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-04T20:34:43Z kyubiko joined #lisp 2014-08-04T20:35:59Z sohail quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-08-04T20:36:22Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-08-04T20:36:24Z francogrex joined #lisp 2014-08-04T20:37:38Z tadni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-04T20:37:39Z ndrei quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-04T20:39:22Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-04T20:39:24Z przl joined #lisp 2014-08-04T20:40:43Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-08-04T20:42:02Z alexey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-04T20:50:23Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-04T20:51:35Z kyubiko quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-08-04T20:51:39Z Ralt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-04T20:55:46Z drmeister: So (progn (setq x 1) #("a" "b" x)) --> #( "a" "b" X) Is the accepted idiom to evaluate x #("a" "b" #.x) --> #("a" "b" 1) ? 2014-08-04T20:56:32Z |3b|: (vector "a" "b" x)? 2014-08-04T20:57:13Z |3b|: #. happens at read time, so you couldn't use it with that PROGN 2014-08-04T20:57:57Z araujo joined #lisp 2014-08-04T20:58:22Z |3b|: clhs ` 2014-08-04T20:58:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm 2014-08-04T20:58:24Z MrWoohoo2 quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-08-04T20:58:48Z |3b|: `#(... ,x) should work also 2014-08-04T20:59:07Z tadni joined #lisp 2014-08-04T20:59:51Z drmeister: (vector ...) of course - I don't know what I was thinking. 2014-08-04T21:00:42Z MouldyOldBones joined #lisp 2014-08-04T21:00:52Z drmeister: Thank you. 2014-08-04T21:01:33Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T21:01:35Z Sauvin joined #lisp 2014-08-04T21:02:33Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T21:03:17Z Patzy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-04T21:03:23Z drmeister: Holy cow - I haven't implemented VECTOR. How did I get this far without it?!? 2014-08-04T21:03:25Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-08-04T21:04:10Z mikaelj quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-04T21:04:48Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-08-04T21:06:05Z phadthai: "Lisp only has conses and lists" :) 2014-08-04T21:06:36Z francogrex quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-04T21:09:35Z kristof joined #lisp 2014-08-04T21:09:49Z pnpuff quit 2014-08-04T21:16:51Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-04T21:18:29Z jlongster quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-04T21:19:38Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-04T21:20:02Z chit joined #lisp 2014-08-04T21:20:06Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-08-04T21:26:41Z troydm quit (Quit: What is hope? That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? (C) Rau Le Creuset) 2014-08-04T21:30:49Z jchochli_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-04T21:35:25Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Exit IRC/Hibernate) 2014-08-04T21:40:10Z les_ is now known as les 2014-08-04T21:40:15Z les quit (Changing host) 2014-08-04T21:40:15Z les joined #lisp 2014-08-04T21:41:15Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2014-08-04T21:41:42Z azynheira quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-04T21:42:42Z vydd joined #lisp 2014-08-04T21:43:27Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2014-08-04T21:43:30Z blahzik quit (Quit: blahzik) 2014-08-04T21:43:46Z dim: I sometime wish lisp had less conses ;-) 2014-08-04T21:43:57Z dim tend to run into GC related problems 2014-08-04T21:44:34Z kristof: WITH-DYNAMIC-EXTENT 2014-08-04T21:44:37Z emma quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-04T21:45:18Z kristof: dim: "less" conses? The language you're using is likely not going to change the data structures you need 2014-08-04T21:45:38Z dim: yeah, that's not what I really mean, just tried to find a funny way of saying it 2014-08-04T21:46:03Z kristof: Do you get pauses or something? 2014-08-04T21:46:23Z dim: I get exhausted memory game over unless I force pauses 2014-08-04T21:46:28Z dim: and even then 2014-08-04T21:46:35Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-08-04T21:46:49Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/pgsql/pgsql.lisp#L61 2014-08-04T21:47:16Z dim: even with some level of protection I still have reports of use cases where SBCL just dies on my users 2014-08-04T21:47:47Z dim: I might have a large enough chunk on time available at the end of the month to see about that, but I'm still lacking tools and techniques to reduce my consing needs 2014-08-04T21:47:49Z ARM9 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-04T21:48:38Z dim: I guess building a test case first, then trying to somehow profile it even thow it's using multiple threads is going to be my first stop, I keep delaying doing that, but now is the time 2014-08-04T21:48:41Z kristof: :( 2014-08-04T21:48:47Z dim: any docs I should read about all that? 2014-08-04T21:49:04Z didi joined #lisp 2014-08-04T21:49:04Z necronian quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-04T21:49:10Z kristof: I'm not sure. I'd ask the SBCL mailing list 2014-08-04T21:49:26Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-04T21:49:53Z dim: will do, at a timing when my brain is actively cooperating ;-) 2014-08-04T21:50:59Z Sgeo joined #lisp 2014-08-04T21:51:06Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2014-08-04T21:51:13Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-08-04T21:51:29Z dim: mmm, I should maybe try to bypass higher level postmodern API and just write in the stream directly rather than pass things around in memory 2014-08-04T21:52:07Z necronian joined #lisp 2014-08-04T21:52:39Z drmeister: Does anyone use trivial-garbage? What is a "weak :key mapping" vs a "weak hash-table"? The docs describe several "weak hash-table" http://www.haible.de/bruno/papers/cs/weak/WeakDatastructures-writeup.html And I am puzzled by what a "weak :key mapping" is outside of a hash-table. 2014-08-04T21:52:41Z kristof: By passing things around, do you mean copying? Why don't you just modify the structures directly? 2014-08-04T21:53:56Z dim: copying yes, I guess, I'm not that sure how much I'm copying 2014-08-04T21:54:05Z Bicyclidine: drmeister: where's it mention a weak :key mapping outside of hash tables? 2014-08-04T21:54:40Z Bicyclidine: there are several types of weak hash table, since you could have only the keys be weak, or only the values, or whatever. 2014-08-04T21:55:21Z drmeister: Under "A minimal set of weak datastructures" - I need to get trivial-garbage to work in order to use cl-conspack. So next on my looong list of things to do is weak pointers. 2014-08-04T21:55:33Z dim: kristof: basically read from MySQL (copy in lisp memory), transform data on the fly (cons a new string), build a batch of if (vector of strings in pgsql COPY format), send the batch (vector) to the writer thread (using lparallel), and there manage the PostgreSQL COPY protocol and errors/retry 2014-08-04T21:55:43Z troydm joined #lisp 2014-08-04T21:55:43Z dim: I guess it's suboptimal in the design 2014-08-04T21:56:34Z Bicyclidine: drmeister: oh, in the data structures page, not in trivial garbage's docs. 2014-08-04T21:56:35Z przl joined #lisp 2014-08-04T21:56:54Z dim: the surprising parts (for me) is that each time I make a new string from the previous one (transform, format) the previous version that I'm not using anymore doesn't seem to be ready for collection 2014-08-04T21:57:08Z Bicyclidine: weak :key mappings looks like a general term to include, say, both weak :key hashtables and weak key alists 2014-08-04T21:57:14Z dim: (I guess that if it were I wouldn't run into exhausted memory condition) 2014-08-04T21:57:28Z drmeister: Bicyclidine: Right - I get the several types of weak hash table. That link describes "What is a weak pointer" - I get that. Then it describes "What is a weak hash-table?" - I get those 4 kinds - yup. Then it says a good implementation will support "weak pointer" "weak :key mappings" and "weak hash-tables". That's where I loose it. 2014-08-04T21:57:57Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2014-08-04T21:58:02Z drmeister: Weak key alists - ok, I see the value in that. 2014-08-04T21:58:10Z Bicyclidine: i'd just implement trivial garbage if i was you. 2014-08-04T21:58:20Z kristof: dim: Does Closure or Lispworks or Allegro do the same thing? 2014-08-04T21:58:54Z dim: CCL chugs along fine, but is reported noticeably slower 2014-08-04T21:59:06Z drmeister: Bicyclidine: How do you implement trivial garbage? I thought I would implement those underlying weak pointer facilities and trivial-garbage would run on top of it. 2014-08-04T21:59:10Z dim: I didn't try the commercial offerings (yet) 2014-08-04T21:59:15Z oGMo: drmeister: you wuld 2014-08-04T21:59:17Z oGMo: "would" 2014-08-04T21:59:29Z Bicyclidine: drmeister: have you looked at trivial garbage's source? 2014-08-04T21:59:52Z dim: well last I tried I couldn't load pgloader in them because of dependencies not loading, so I stopped trying early 2014-08-04T21:59:53Z oGMo: trivial-garbage just unifies the various syntaxes last i checked 2014-08-04T21:59:57Z Bicyclidine: it's probably a bunch of (defun thing (...) #+ecl (ecl:thing ...) #+ccl (ccl:other-thing ...)) 2014-08-04T22:00:08Z oGMo: right 2014-08-04T22:01:03Z drmeister: Ok, I'll be right back. 2014-08-04T22:01:06Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-04T22:01:12Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-04T22:01:42Z dim tried again with LispWorks 2014-08-04T22:02:07Z dim: it fails to load sqlite3 foreign lib, ok 2014-08-04T22:04:08Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-04T22:04:08Z kristof: :'( 2014-08-04T22:04:37Z normanrichards joined #lisp 2014-08-04T22:06:08Z dim: ok and the limited edition quits before loading pgloader 2014-08-04T22:06:21Z dim: (I asked to consider sqlite loaded even with the failure) 2014-08-04T22:06:47Z dim: so SBCL works quite fine except for those memory exhausted problems, and CCL is fine in all cases but (much?) slower 2014-08-04T22:07:07Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-08-04T22:07:42Z drmeister: Sorry - I looked up at the clock and had to rush for the train. Did anyone post anything after I said "Ok, I'll be right back?" 2014-08-04T22:07:49Z drmeister: Re: trivial-garbage 2014-08-04T22:07:56Z Bicyclidine: nothing relevant to you. 2014-08-04T22:08:37Z kristof: I just tried to switch from one terminal to the other by typing C-x o. Sigh. 2014-08-04T22:08:50Z drmeister: No, I haven't looked at the trivial-garbage source code. Since I don't have quick-lisp and I haven't quite gotten ASDF working (need to talk to Fare about create-image/ecl>>c:builder) - I'm not real conversant with other CL libraries. 2014-08-04T22:09:08Z Bicyclidine: "it's probably a bunch of (defun thing (...) #+ecl (ecl:thing ...) #+ccl (ccl:other-thing ...))" is what i said before 2014-08-04T22:10:12Z zickzackv joined #lisp 2014-08-04T22:10:26Z drmeister: If I wanted to look at the trivial-garbage source how would I do that? 2014-08-04T22:10:38Z drmeister: Never mind. 2014-08-04T22:10:43Z drmeister: github 2014-08-04T22:11:31Z drmeister: Ok - I see what you mean. 2014-08-04T22:13:45Z drmeister: That's a pretty thin layer. I'll just implement the kinds of weakness ECL uses. The trick will be that the Boehm GC and the MPS GC implement weakness in _very_ different ways. 2014-08-04T22:14:05Z Bicyclidine: yeah, most things with trivial- are like that. 2014-08-04T22:14:19Z drmeister: Ah - thanks. I didn't know that. 2014-08-04T22:14:47Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-04T22:14:50Z didi quit (Quit: you can't /fire me, I /quit) 2014-08-04T22:15:12Z joe-w-bimedina quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-04T22:15:57Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-08-04T22:16:06Z drmeister: I thought it was some sort of condescension. 2014-08-04T22:16:11Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-04T22:17:03Z abeaumont_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-04T22:19:37Z dmiles_afk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-04T22:19:45Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2014-08-04T22:20:43Z MrWoohoo2 joined #lisp 2014-08-04T22:20:50Z abeaumont_ joined #lisp 2014-08-04T22:21:11Z drmeister: cl-conspack also depends on :closer-mop :alexandria :ieee-floats :trivial-utf-8 :fast-io :trivial-garbage - lots of work to do. 2014-08-04T22:22:31Z Bicyclidine: alexandria i don't think has any impl conditionals, might wanna start there 2014-08-04T22:22:49Z drmeister: What are "impl conditionals"? 2014-08-04T22:22:57Z Bicyclidine: implementational conditionals. #+ i mean. 2014-08-04T22:23:05Z drmeister: Ah. 2014-08-04T22:31:07Z ericmathison quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-04T22:32:25Z Zhivago quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-04T22:32:42Z Zhivago joined #lisp 2014-08-04T22:34:00Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-08-04T22:38:28Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-04T22:38:36Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-04T22:40:19Z Zhivago quit (Changing host) 2014-08-04T22:40:19Z Zhivago joined #lisp 2014-08-04T22:42:55Z alexey joined #lisp 2014-08-04T22:47:17Z alexey quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-04T22:48:43Z moore33 joined #lisp 2014-08-04T22:49:02Z DKordic` joined #lisp 2014-08-04T22:50:14Z DKordic quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-04T22:51:04Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2014-08-04T22:51:25Z wooden quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-04T23:06:45Z amadsen quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-04T23:09:13Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2014-08-04T23:09:28Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-04T23:09:29Z manuel_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-04T23:09:40Z bcoburn quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-04T23:11:15Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-08-04T23:11:33Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-04T23:16:07Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2014-08-04T23:19:30Z KarlDscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-04T23:19:33Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-08-04T23:19:34Z jleija joined #lisp 2014-08-04T23:20:16Z didi joined #lisp 2014-08-04T23:21:27Z ltbarcly quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-04T23:23:07Z lisper99 joined #lisp 2014-08-04T23:23:14Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-08-04T23:23:14Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-04T23:24:54Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-04T23:27:11Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-04T23:28:17Z normanrichards quit 2014-08-04T23:29:22Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2014-08-04T23:32:44Z lisper99 quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 31.0/20140715214327]) 2014-08-04T23:33:15Z lisper99 joined #lisp 2014-08-04T23:37:01Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-08-04T23:37:41Z davorb_ joined #lisp 2014-08-04T23:39:31Z normanrichards joined #lisp 2014-08-04T23:43:46Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 2014-08-04T23:46:27Z bjorkintosh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-04T23:46:34Z alexherbo2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-04T23:49:22Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2014-08-04T23:49:34Z WarWeasle joined #lisp 2014-08-04T23:49:48Z normanrichards quit 2014-08-04T23:50:53Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2014-08-04T23:51:51Z adlai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-04T23:54:46Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2014-08-04T23:55:07Z wizzo joined #lisp 2014-08-04T23:56:57Z adlai joined #lisp 2014-08-05T00:04:08Z sohail joined #lisp 2014-08-05T00:06:13Z davorb_ quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Freenode staff: If this is happening too frequently, please set a nickserv freeze on my account, and once my connection is stable, unfreeze the account and /kill me to trigger a reconnect.) 2014-08-05T01:23:08Z Borbus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-05T01:23:15Z Borbus joined #lisp 2014-08-05T01:23:18Z kristof: "___ is a type, not a class" makes me fundamentally uncomfortable. 2014-08-05T01:23:33Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2014-08-05T01:23:54Z hellome quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-05T01:23:55Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-05T01:26:15Z joe-w-bimedina: kristof: why is that? 2014-08-05T01:27:35Z kristof: joe-w-bimedina: For the same reason you just said. Types and Classes solve the same problem, mathematically: "I've got this thing with a set of operations defined on it." 2014-08-05T01:27:51Z kristof: "And I want to expressively say that something is a specific kind of thing." 2014-08-05T01:29:41Z joe-w-bimedina: I agree I think there should be a class for every type, so you have the freedom to specialize on it in a defmethod, I probably should just write my own though 2014-08-05T01:29:45Z Zhivago: And by kind, are you talking about type or are you talking about class? 2014-08-05T01:29:53Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-08-05T01:30:01Z ssake quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-05T01:30:14Z Zhivago: class is about implementation, type is about category of value. 2014-08-05T01:30:52Z kristof: They should be indistinguishable. 2014-08-05T01:31:37Z Zhivago: They should be very distinguishable. 2014-08-05T01:31:43Z JuniorRoy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-05T01:32:34Z kristof: Why? 2014-08-05T01:32:51Z Zhivago: Consider the type NUMBER. 2014-08-05T01:33:13Z Zhivago: Now consider the various implementations that can populate that type. 2014-08-05T01:33:14Z kristof: I specialize methods or functions on types precisely because their implementation lends itself to that ad-hoc specialization. 2014-08-05T01:33:21Z Zhivago: You do not specialize methods on types. 2014-08-05T01:33:31Z Zhivago: CLOS does not support specialization on type. 2014-08-05T01:33:37Z kristof: No, and that's what I mean. 2014-08-05T01:33:45Z Zhivago: You specialize methods on class. 2014-08-05T01:33:49Z Zhivago: What do you mean? 2014-08-05T01:33:55Z Bike: kristof: types don't have a strict subtype relationship like classes do 2014-08-05T01:34:04Z Bike: hence subtypep being really complicated 2014-08-05T01:34:16Z Zhivago: Yeah, consider (integer 10 20) and (integer 15 25). 2014-08-05T01:34:33Z Zhivago: Ah. I see, I missed the crux of the discussion. 2014-08-05T01:35:44Z Zhivago: You can perhaps arrange the types in a topological order by decreasing specificity, and then do a cascade of comparisons. 2014-08-05T01:37:27Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-08-05T01:38:23Z didi quit (Quit: you can't /fire me, I /quit) 2014-08-05T01:38:32Z JuniorRoy joined #lisp 2014-08-05T01:39:05Z sohail quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-08-05T01:42:34Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-08-05T01:42:34Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-05T01:45:59Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2014-08-05T01:46:52Z manuel_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-05T01:46:52Z manuel__ is now known as manuel_ 2014-08-05T01:50:51Z sheilong is now known as sheilongm 2014-08-05T01:51:15Z sheilongm is now known as sheilong 2014-08-05T01:58:07Z estebian joined #lisp 2014-08-05T01:59:13Z pjb: Zhivago: I don't think you missed anything. If you define a method m on (integer 10 20) and on (integer 15 25), then we wouldn't know what (m 18) would mean. Since you didn't declare classes for those types, there would be no precedence to know what method should be called first, if both would be called. 2014-08-05T01:59:22Z harish_ joined #lisp 2014-08-05T01:59:55Z Zhivago: Well, I missed the context in my initial reply. 2014-08-05T02:01:51Z pillton: Speaking of types, I think it would be worth writing a CDR to add support for some things e.g. 2014-08-05T02:01:58Z pillton: TYPE-EXPAND and TYPE-EXPAND-1 2014-08-05T02:02:07Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-08-05T02:02:37Z pillton: Adding the ability to define your own "builtin" type. e.g. (lapack-matrix double-float) 2014-08-05T02:03:23Z Bike: what would that mean? 2014-08-05T02:04:50Z pillton: What would what mean? 2014-08-05T02:04:55Z Zhivago: I think he means class. 2014-08-05T02:05:16Z Zhivago: Whose members would then satisfy such a type. 2014-08-05T02:05:37Z Zhivago: You can define such a type. 2014-08-05T02:07:10Z pillton: No you can't. You have to have a class for each variation of LAPACK-MATRIX. 2014-08-05T02:07:41Z pillton: You can't for instance implement LAPACK-MATRIX as a class wrapped around an ARRAY. 2014-08-05T02:08:35Z Zhivago: Yeah, you're talking about the class there, not the type. 2014-08-05T02:08:40Z Bike: an expansion of parametric types (and classes?), or rather having them at all, would be kinda nice 2014-08-05T02:09:49Z JuanDaugherty: gotta be some clos thing already using lapack 2014-08-05T02:10:17Z pillton: JuanDaugherty: LAPACK is the example, not the point. 2014-08-05T02:10:43Z JuanDaugherty: oh the classes vs types thing is the point? 2014-08-05T02:11:05Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-05T02:11:16Z pillton: No, try and implement your own version of the ARRAY type. 2014-08-05T02:11:36Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-08-05T02:12:16Z JuanDaugherty: a CDR is a spec change request? 2014-08-05T02:12:21Z Zhivago: I don't think you can because of the system class. 2014-08-05T02:12:35Z pillton: It isn't possible as the type system assumes all new types are built upon the builtin types. 2014-08-05T02:12:41Z Bike: JuanDaugherty: a sort of spec addition. 2014-08-05T02:12:48Z JuanDaugherty: ah 2014-08-05T02:14:08Z edgar-rft: JuanDaugherty: CDR see http://cdr.eurolisp.org/ 2014-08-05T02:14:19Z visnu joined #lisp 2014-08-05T02:15:30Z JuanDaugherty: ah 2014-08-05T02:19:44Z Jameser quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-05T02:20:08Z Jameser joined #lisp 2014-08-05T02:20:55Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-08-05T02:24:40Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2014-08-05T02:24:52Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-05T02:26:59Z zophy joined #lisp 2014-08-05T02:27:31Z JuanDaugherty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-05T02:33:27Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2014-08-05T02:37:50Z Sgeo_ joined #lisp 2014-08-05T02:41:32Z Sgeo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-05T02:44:33Z alexey joined #lisp 2014-08-05T02:46:12Z 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#lisp 2014-08-05T08:33:47Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2014-08-05T08:33:55Z Ralt: I do 2014-08-05T08:34:43Z Ralt: Cymew: recent use-case https://github.com/Ralt/plotsvn/blob/master/plotsvn.lisp#L23 2014-08-05T08:34:51Z Ralt: this library kinda forces it: https://github.com/pve1/apply-argv 2014-08-05T08:34:58Z xificurC quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-05T08:35:01Z Ralt: (since I don't want the executable in the arguments.) 2014-08-05T08:35:16Z Cymew: Nice. I was afraid it was an idea that never took root. 2014-08-05T08:35:18Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-05T08:35:21Z xificurC joined #lisp 2014-08-05T08:36:03Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-05T08:36:33Z abeaumont joined #lisp 2014-08-05T08:38:26Z banjara quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-05T08:39:23Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2014-08-05T08:40:06Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-08-05T08:41:33Z przl joined #lisp 2014-08-05T08:42:18Z nug700 quit (Quit: bye) 2014-08-05T08:42:34Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-05T08:43:58Z xificurC quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-05T08:44:04Z Beetny joined #lisp 2014-08-05T08:44:11Z xificurC joined #lisp 2014-08-05T08:44:58Z eeeee joined #lisp 2014-08-05T08:45:19Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2014-08-05T08:45:33Z teiresias quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-05T08:47:00Z davorb_ quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-08-05T08:49:03Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-05T08:57:27Z longlius_ joined #lisp 2014-08-05T08:57:32Z Longlius quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-05T09:01:34Z zacharias_ is now known as zacharias 2014-08-05T09:04:24Z eeeee: Hello dear Lispers! I am currently working with s-xml-package, reading in a sepa-xml-file and getting sxml-expressions back, e.g.: (defvar *sxml* '(NS-0:|GrpHdr| (NS-0:|MsgId|"00001") (NS-0:|CreDtTm| "2014-01-01...") (and) (more) (nested entries))) . I am not sure, how to access these data, but i also dont understand why the s-xml-package uses this NS-0:|xml-tag| - notation. 2014-08-05T09:04:52Z joneshf-laptop_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-05T09:05:03Z joneshf quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-05T09:06:09Z eeeee: I would now write an function, looping over the different cells, comparing parts of the princ-to-string of the NS-0:|tag| to get the values what i need.... but i feel like that's not the lisp way. Can somebody give me a hint? 2014-08-05T09:07:29Z stanislav is now known as Quasus 2014-08-05T09:07:38Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-05T09:07:43Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-08-05T09:07:59Z Quasus is now known as Guest34041 2014-08-05T09:10:34Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-05T09:11:02Z Guest34041 is now known as foobarbaz 2014-08-05T09:11:08Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-08-05T09:11:45Z eeeee: *there is an typo in my sample data, missing space: (defvar *sxml* '(NS-0:|GrpHdr| (NS-0:|MsgId| "00001") (NS-0:|CreDtTm| "2014-01-01...") (and) (more) (nested entries))) - my first step to get the first "tag": (caadr *sxml*) - tag-value: (cdadr *sxml*). But not sure if there is a short way to extract the real tag name out of NS-0:|MsgId| ... 2014-08-05T09:12:03Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-05T09:12:21Z foobarbaz is now known as stanislav 2014-08-05T09:12:22Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-05T09:12:29Z ggole_: NS-0:|foo| is simply a symbol 2014-08-05T09:14:05Z ggole_ is now known as ggole 2014-08-05T09:14:27Z przl joined #lisp 2014-08-05T09:14:39Z ered quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-05T09:16:05Z ered joined #lisp 2014-08-05T09:17:12Z eeeee: okay... but as far as i understand, it represents some xml-data in form from an s-expression (sxml). It seems overcomplicated from the s-xml-package to add some prefix to the tags... so i have just to modify the symbols to get the tag? can i perform string-operations on the symbol's name to filter the tag-name? 2014-08-05T09:17:47Z ggole: It's just the package that the symbols are in 2014-08-05T09:18:28Z eeeee: Aaahh, now i see! :D 2014-08-05T09:18:37Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-08-05T09:20:32Z ggole: So if you want to see if some tag has a particular "name", you can just use good old eq 2014-08-05T09:21:45Z eeeee: thank you very much! i try to access through the package name then. I should exercixe the package-handling more 2014-08-05T09:24:40Z eeeee: But maybe one more question, because i am still stuck: how do I get the *sxml* expression with it's symbols bound to the variable system? until now I can't access them, i suppose because it's just a list. Do I have to loop over the items and "defvar" them? 2014-08-05T09:26:02Z ggole: I don't understand the question. 2014-08-05T09:26:41Z Blaguvest joined #lisp 2014-08-05T09:29:57Z eeeee: Sorry. I try to articulate differently: If I try to access the variables above, NS-0:|CreDtTm| - they are unbound. Now I am not sure, how to bind them. Till now, i think they are only a list of s-expression, not evaluated. 2014-08-05T09:32:26Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-08-05T09:33:21Z ggole: They aren't variables, they are symbols. 2014-08-05T09:34:23Z ggole: If you want to bind parts of the list to variables in order to work on them, you probably want something like destructuring-bind. 2014-08-05T09:34:46Z the8thbit quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-05T09:35:17Z eeeee: okay - i have to intern that difference better to understand my situation here. 2014-08-05T09:36:11Z eeeee: Ahh, okay, yes, i want to query and modify this symbols / sxml-expression. i will try to get some function with destructuring-bind working - thank you :) 2014-08-05T09:37:07Z stassats: destructuring-bind will unlikely help you here 2014-08-05T09:38:04Z eeeee: hmm, what would be more helpful? 2014-08-05T09:38:42Z stassats: any other list or sequence operations 2014-08-05T09:40:03Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-05T09:40:35Z eeeee: okay, then i stick to my previous plan, to loop over those single elements and compare their names (with stripped NS-0:). 2014-08-05T09:40:40Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-08-05T09:42:08Z stassats: can't you convince whatever you are using to disregard namespaces? 2014-08-05T09:42:49Z stassats: or just use some better way of parsing xml, like cxml-stp 2014-08-05T09:44:22Z eeeee: To be honest, i understand s-xml (http://common-lisp.net/project/s-xml/) completly and couldn't find a better solution. But i will try cxml-stp! 2014-08-05T09:44:57Z stassats: s-expressions is a poor medium for working with xml 2014-08-05T09:45:41Z Cymew quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-08-05T09:46:06Z eeeee: okay - that's why i have this struggle :D 2014-08-05T09:48:46Z eeeee: i thought, or more i read, s-expressions fit very good, because they have same hierarchical syntax tree. Only without the trailing closing tag at the end... 2014-08-05T09:49:00Z Zhivago: Not a particularly good fit, really. 2014-08-05T09:49:07Z the8thbit joined #lisp 2014-08-05T09:49:11Z Zhivago: An XML node is really the composition of a dictionary and an array. 2014-08-05T09:49:17Z stassats: they can represent xml, but not in way that makes it easy to work with 2014-08-05T09:50:00Z teiresias joined #lisp 2014-08-05T09:50:33Z eeeee: ohkay... said day for me - i thought lisp can everything easily ;-) 2014-08-05T09:51:10Z stassats: nothing above contradicts that 2014-08-05T09:51:13Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-08-05T09:52:32Z Zhivago: It's more that s-exps aren't the one true data structure. 2014-08-05T09:52:39Z Zhivago: Which isn't surprising, since there isn't one. 2014-08-05T09:53:30Z eeeee: okay, i see - i can live with that, i guess, since lisp is flexible 2014-08-05T09:55:25Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-08-05T09:55:55Z theos joined #lisp 2014-08-05T09:57:21Z eeeee: okay, thank you guys, i will start reading tutorials for cxml-stp - thank you for showing me this one! 2014-08-05T10:00:33Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-05T10:04:01Z mtd quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-05T10:09:08Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-05T10:10:26Z mtd joined #lisp 2014-08-05T10:13:28Z harish joined #lisp 2014-08-05T10:14:04Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-08-05T10:14:49Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-05T10:14:51Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-08-05T10:15:10Z JuniorRoy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-05T10:16:00Z gregburd quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-08-05T10:19:04Z dmiles_afk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-05T10:19:45Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2014-08-05T10:24:22Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-05T10:25:58Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-08-05T10:26:58Z moore33 quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2014-08-05T10:30:20Z 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(http://paste.lisp.org/display/143315) macro clear enough or I should evade using stuff like that? 2014-08-05T13:54:22Z isoraqathedh joined #lisp 2014-08-05T13:55:06Z Guthur: hitecnologys: i would just use alexandria:compose to do that 2014-08-05T13:55:41Z Guthur: and curry for the second example 2014-08-05T13:55:49Z Guthur: with compose 2014-08-05T13:56:08Z Zhivago: I'd also strongly suggest writing the code as a function, and then using a macro to add a thin layer of syntactic sugar. 2014-08-05T13:56:08Z Guest52378 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-05T13:56:33Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-08-05T13:56:33Z Zhivago: Also, I don't see any reason for using iter there. 2014-08-05T13:57:01Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2014-08-05T13:57:01Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-08-05T13:57:07Z oGMo: Zhivago: good advise, it always annoys me when functionality is macro-only 2014-08-05T13:57:08Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-08-05T13:57:12Z hitecnologys: Guthur: that was what I was using. I decided to write a macro because calls became way too long and twisted. Now I'm wondering if my architecture has too much layers of abstraction or it's just me being paranoid. 2014-08-05T13:57:14Z oGMo: "advice" 2014-08-05T13:57:18Z witz joined #lisp 2014-08-05T13:57:22Z amadsen joined #lisp 2014-08-05T13:57:34Z hitecnologys: Zhivago: hm. Sounds like a good idea. Thanks for that. 2014-08-05T13:58:04Z Guthur: you could use a macro to wrap curry and compose is some sort of sugar like Zhivago suggested 2014-08-05T13:58:06Z Guthur: is/in 2014-08-05T13:58:31Z oGMo: you don't need to be that complicated 2014-08-05T13:58:33Z Zhivago: Or you could write a trivial LOOP. 2014-08-05T13:58:37Z oGMo: ^ 2014-08-05T13:58:48Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-08-05T13:58:50Z Zhivago: It's probably a good idea to check out alexandria, though. 2014-08-05T13:59:01Z oGMo: whatever that definition is is horribly overcomplicated 2014-08-05T14:00:00Z Zhivago: I guess it depends on if you really want this to operate as a mini-compiler or not. 2014-08-05T14:00:02Z hitecnologys: Zhivago: did that. Alexandria doesn't seem to have anything similar expect COMPOSE+CURRY which are more low-level compared to idea of piping. 2014-08-05T14:00:26Z Zhivago: If that's important to you, then I'd suggest a simpler, recursive macro. 2014-08-05T14:00:32Z oGMo: Zhivago: sure but a function with a compiler-macro seems more appropriate 2014-08-05T14:00:55Z Zhivago: Well, that's what I'd do, but he might have some good reason for this. 2014-08-05T14:01:03Z oGMo: (and if your lisp doesn't respect compiler macros, then "but performance" is already off the table) 2014-08-05T14:01:04Z madmalik quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-08-05T14:01:27Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-05T14:01:56Z oGMo: well he also has the ability to do liek (foo :bar) -> (foo x :bar) which is only possible with a macro, but is also terrible 2014-08-05T14:02:09Z oGMo: e.g., what if you want (foo :bar x) 2014-08-05T14:02:23Z oGMo: so stick with a function and use (lambda (x) (foo x :bar)) 2014-08-05T14:02:36Z vydd joined #lisp 2014-08-05T14:03:42Z Guthur: or (curryr 'foo :bar) 2014-08-05T14:03:52Z Guthur: might be rcurry can't remember 2014-08-05T14:04:10Z Guthur: yeah alexandria:rcurry 2014-08-05T14:04:55Z oGMo: more importantly, with a macro, you _can't_ do that 2014-08-05T14:05:02Z Guthur: curry and compose are wonderful tools, use them 2014-08-05T14:05:39Z oGMo: i suppose, i usually don't see the point over just using a lambda 2014-08-05T14:06:07Z oGMo: shorter syntax in a few specific cases i guess 2014-08-05T14:06:33Z PuercoPop quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-05T14:06:39Z Guthur: it's not just syntax, it's also semantics 2014-08-05T14:06:48Z Guthur: if i see curry i know your intention 2014-08-05T14:06:57Z Guthur: it I see lambda i need to read more code 2014-08-05T14:07:03Z Guthur: if* 2014-08-05T14:07:37Z didi: Currying is trick. I couldn't implement it in Lisp last time I tried. IIRC because of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currying#Contrast_with_partial_function_application 2014-08-05T14:08:50Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-05T14:09:20Z oGMo: yeah alexandria's currying isn't really afaict 2014-08-05T14:10:37Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-05T14:11:26Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-05T14:11:55Z enn: ppcre question: my register-groups-bind gives me a bunch of "This is not a STRING: NIL" warnings. (http://hastebin.com/ufulexobaj.lisp) It works as expected, though. What am I doing wrong? 2014-08-05T14:12:46Z |3b|: is that on current sbcl? 2014-08-05T14:12:53Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2014-08-05T14:13:15Z hitecnologys: There we go, version with function: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143315#1 2014-08-05T14:13:15Z zacts_ joined #lisp 2014-08-05T14:13:36Z enn: |3b|: it's with 1.2.0 2014-08-05T14:13:37Z |3b| remembers seeing that being discussed, but doesn't remember if it something that was fixed or not 2014-08-05T14:13:56Z |3b|: ok, probably not fixed then :( 2014-08-05T14:14:03Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-05T14:14:10Z witz is now known as cwiz 2014-08-05T14:14:21Z hitecnologys: Bleh, my internets, apparently, went down for quite some time. 2014-08-05T14:14:56Z hitecnologys: Can someone tell me what was my last message and when did I send it? 2014-08-05T14:15:41Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-08-05T14:15:54Z |3b|: minion: tell hitecnologys about logs 2014-08-05T14:15:54Z minion: hitecnologys: direct your attention towards logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 2014-08-05T14:16:20Z hitecnologys: |3b|: oh, I thought they aren't real-time. 2014-08-05T14:16:37Z przl joined #lisp 2014-08-05T14:16:50Z hitecnologys: |3b|: thanks. 2014-08-05T14:19:05Z cwiz is now known as iiUltra 2014-08-05T14:19:13Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-08-05T14:19:15Z iiUltra is now known as IIUltra 2014-08-05T14:19:54Z intellect joined #lisp 2014-08-05T14:22:57Z pidof joined #lisp 2014-08-05T14:23:03Z pidof left #lisp 2014-08-05T14:24:02Z intellect quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-05T14:25:39Z pidof joined #lisp 2014-08-05T14:27:08Z pidof quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-05T14:27:26Z pidof joined #lisp 2014-08-05T14:27:45Z pidof quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-05T14:28:10Z pidof joined #lisp 2014-08-05T14:29:20Z IIUltra is now known as FewcherZ 2014-08-05T14:33:33Z FewcherZ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-05T14:34:15Z xificurC quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-05T14:35:25Z xificurC joined #lisp 2014-08-05T14:35:42Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-05T14:36:56Z dim: how should I update to most recent QL and SBCL (1.2.1)? 2014-08-05T14:37:18Z dim: the new sbcl isn't starting even if I just updated QL before upgrading sbcl... 2014-08-05T14:37:27Z dim: I though that was how to do it, I'm obviously missing a step here 2014-08-05T14:37:46Z dim: Symbol "CODE-TRACE-TABLE-OFFSET-SLOT" not found in the SB-VM package. for "file /Users/dim/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-2.7/swank-sbcl.lisp" 2014-08-05T14:38:22Z Xach: dim: do you load swank in your .sbclrc or something? 2014-08-05T14:38:28Z Xach: Or is that from starting slime? 2014-08-05T14:38:33Z dim: starting slime 2014-08-05T14:38:37Z |3b|: enn: see this thread about that warning: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.steel-bank.devel/13265/focus=13266 2014-08-05T14:38:38Z dim: mmm, I didn't restart Emacs 2014-08-05T14:38:45Z FewcherZ joined #lisp 2014-08-05T14:38:53Z Xach: dim: start sbcl without starting slime, then (ql:update-dist "quicklisp") will get you to a slime 2.8 that works 2014-08-05T14:38:56Z enn: |3b|: thanks 2014-08-05T14:39:00Z dim: Xach: ok 2014-08-05T14:39:18Z dim: You already have the latest version of "quicklisp": 2014-07-14. 2014-08-05T14:39:33Z Xach: hmm 2014-08-05T14:39:36Z FewcherZ is now known as nullMiNdz 2014-08-05T14:40:24Z zadock joined #lisp 2014-08-05T14:40:24Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-08-05T14:40:50Z Xach: dim: if you start sbcl without starting slime, what do you get from (ql:where-is-system "swank")? 2014-08-05T14:41:13Z dim: #P"/Users/dim/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-2.8/" 2014-08-05T14:41:33Z Xach: I wonder what is trying to load from 2.7. Hmm. 2014-08-05T14:42:07Z yrk quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-05T14:42:11Z dim: ok restarting Emacs just in case 2014-08-05T14:42:12Z nullMiNdz is now known as NullMiNdz 2014-08-05T14:43:05Z dim: ok that did it 2014-08-05T14:43:16Z dim: I did manually load slime.el from 2.8 to no avail, note 2014-08-05T14:44:22Z nell joined #lisp 2014-08-05T14:44:25Z Xach: oko 2014-08-05T14:44:35Z dim: I'm back to being able to re-compile the world from Emacs ;-) 2014-08-05T14:45:05Z Guthur: dim, was that you that recompiled 2014-08-05T14:45:10Z Guthur: i was trying to make a cup of tea 2014-08-05T14:45:41Z dim: well, boiled water is boiled water, it won't get any hotter than that 2014-08-05T14:46:54Z normanrichards joined #lisp 2014-08-05T14:46:57Z dlowe: unless you lower your elevation 2014-08-05T14:47:06Z dlowe: or pressurize your environment 2014-08-05T14:48:51Z Zhivago: You could superheat it. 2014-08-05T14:49:20Z Zhivago: Just avoid nucleation. 2014-08-05T14:50:11Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2014-08-05T14:50:46Z stardiviner quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-05T14:50:55Z NullMiNdz quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 31.0/20140716183446]) 2014-08-05T14:51:14Z NullMiNdz joined #lisp 2014-08-05T14:51:49Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2014-08-05T14:53:25Z nipra quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-05T14:54:59Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-05T14:55:12Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-05T14:55:29Z NullMiNdz is now known as nullMiNdz 2014-08-05T14:55:52Z pt1_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-05T14:56:36Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-05T14:56:54Z nullMiNdz quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 31.0/20140716183446]) 2014-08-05T14:57:48Z normanrichards quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-05T14:57:48Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-08-05T15:01:56Z pjb: or add salt. 2014-08-05T15:02:02Z varjag quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-05T15:02:29Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-08-05T15:03:59Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-08-05T15:04:24Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2014-08-05T15:04:24Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-08-05T15:10:37Z pidof quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-05T15:10:57Z pidof joined #lisp 2014-08-05T15:13:47Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-05T15:13:50Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-05T15:14:33Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-05T15:15:07Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-08-05T15:15:14Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2014-08-05T15:16:46Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-05T15:18:06Z Guthur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-05T15:20:06Z prxq joined #lisp 2014-08-05T15:20:41Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-08-05T15:21:58Z karupa is now known as zz_karupa 2014-08-05T15:22:02Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2014-08-05T15:22:20Z Guthur joined #lisp 2014-08-05T15:22:51Z dkcl is now known as mc45 2014-08-05T15:23:37Z sohail quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-08-05T15:30:32Z AdmiralBumbleBee quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2014-08-05T15:31:11Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-08-05T15:35:07Z normanrichards joined #lisp 2014-08-05T15:40:35Z uzo joined #lisp 2014-08-05T15:40:58Z stepnem joined #lisp 2014-08-05T15:41:34Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0-rc1) 2014-08-05T15:44:56Z sohail joined #lisp 2014-08-05T15:45:00Z sohail quit (Changing host) 2014-08-05T15:45:00Z sohail joined #lisp 2014-08-05T15:48:17Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-08-05T15:48:34Z varjag joined #lisp 2014-08-05T15:49:38Z mvilleneuve_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-08-05T15:55:15Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-08-05T15:55:43Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-08-05T15:57:42Z stardiviner quit (Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/) 2014-08-05T15:57:54Z test1600 joined #lisp 2014-08-05T15:58:48Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-05T16:01:06Z pidof quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-05T16:01:28Z pidof joined #lisp 2014-08-05T16:01:56Z mc45 is now known as dkcl 2014-08-05T16:07:37Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-05T16:09:00Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-05T16:09:31Z YDJX quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-05T16:10:26Z Blaguvest quit 2014-08-05T16:10:47Z Ralt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-05T16:10:49Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-08-05T16:11:24Z Mon_Ouie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-05T16:12:21Z red_cube_leader is now known as spockokt 2014-08-05T16:15:25Z wizzo quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I love this library. 2014-08-05T17:41:30Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-05T17:43:10Z stassats: i don't see that particular problem being painful 2014-08-05T17:43:11Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-05T17:44:22Z ltbarcly quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-05T17:45:26Z blahzik quit (Quit: blahzik) 2014-08-05T17:45:37Z enn: I'm sure it was my own inexperience with concurrency, but I recall it being very finicky, particularly to deal with errors in the worker threads 2014-08-05T17:47:00Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-08-05T17:48:29Z khisanth_ joined #lisp 2014-08-05T17:49:34Z moore33 quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2014-08-05T17:50:59Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-05T17:51:34Z stassats: that might require some design choices 2014-08-05T17:52:37Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-08-05T17:53:55Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-08-05T17:54:19Z Zeedox_ joined #lisp 2014-08-05T17:56:35Z banjara joined #lisp 2014-08-05T17:57:31Z Xach: lparallel is nice to have 2014-08-05T18:00:54Z ehu_ joined #lisp 2014-08-05T18:01:20Z juanlas joined #lisp 2014-08-05T18:01:22Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-05T18:07:20Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: end of life during parsing) 2014-08-05T18:09:43Z InfusoElAmbulant joined #lisp 2014-08-05T18:10:30Z moore33 joined #lisp 2014-08-05T18:11:16Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-08-05T18:14:36Z davorb_ joined #lisp 2014-08-05T18:14:43Z Ayey_ joined #lisp 2014-08-05T18:17:41Z michael_lee quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2014-08-05T18:18:57Z Sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-05T18:20:12Z effy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-05T18:21:19Z ben__ joined #lisp 2014-08-05T18:22:06Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-08-05T18:25:20Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-08-05T18:26:53Z davorb_ quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Trying do it with the smallest speed hit I can 2014-08-05T20:17:45Z Zeedox_ is now known as Zeedox 2014-08-05T20:18:08Z Vivitron` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-05T20:19:47Z blahzik quit (Quit: blahzik) 2014-08-05T20:20:51Z aumontabe joined #lisp 2014-08-05T20:22:22Z eaumontab quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-05T20:27:58Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-05T20:29:50Z JuanDaugherty: my client just grabs focus, maybe does beep on mac 2014-08-05T20:30:24Z enn: The other day I came across something that was supposed to make it easy to run your Lisp app as a daemon, without screen/detachtty/etc. For the life of me I can't find it now. I see sb-daemon, that wasn't it, but maybe that's the best practice? any other recommendations? 2014-08-05T20:31:06Z JuanDaugherty: i still use detachtty 2014-08-05T20:31:22Z nightfly: write an init script/systemd thing 2014-08-05T20:32:17Z madmalik joined #lisp 2014-08-05T20:32:44Z kristof: enn: I like shelly. If you need it to be automagic, use ^systemd 2014-08-05T20:34:03Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-05T20:35:02Z jasom: enn: I use daemontools so I don't want it to daemonize 2014-08-05T20:36:05Z enn: shelly looks interesting 2014-08-05T20:36:16Z joe-w-bimedina: has drmeisters Lisp come out yet, if not is there a link where I can check on the status? 2014-08-05T20:37:21Z Bicyclidine: last i heard his university's IP people were doing whatever they do. 2014-08-05T20:38:08Z kristof: joe-w-bimedina: No, and not that I'm aware of 2014-08-05T20:38:27Z kristof: joe-w-bimedina: He'll release the code when he gets the ok from his university to do so. 2014-08-05T20:39:07Z joe-w-bimedina: Bicyclidine: Thanks, I just got the idea that I could start testing his Lisp for him, really looking forward to it:) 2014-08-05T20:41:58Z jasom: enn: see also cl-launch 2014-08-05T20:42:31Z enn: jasom: thanks 2014-08-05T20:43:02Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-08-05T20:44:14Z blahzik joined #lisp 2014-08-05T20:46:25Z kristof: I keep trying to figure out what the difference is between cl-launch and shelly, and which is 'better' 2014-08-05T20:47:13Z jasom: kristof: they are just different 2014-08-05T20:47:28Z jasom: kristof: shelly is designed to let you make a big image that you can call functions into 2014-08-05T20:47:42Z kristof: right, but what does cl-launch do? 2014-08-05T20:47:51Z oGMo: kristof: scriptl! ;) 2014-08-05T20:47:59Z jasom: kristof: it's more of a swiss-army-knife of calling into lisp from shell 2014-08-05T20:48:10Z kristof: But I do that with shelly! ._. 2014-08-05T20:48:16Z jasom: for example, cl-launch can make an executable, or a shell-script wrapper for you to run 2014-08-05T20:49:16Z jasom: kristof: but the overlap is probably larger than the differences. 2014-08-05T20:49:51Z jasom: I would guess that both Fare and fukamachi didn't know about the other's work 2014-08-05T20:49:54Z drmeister: joe-w-bimedina: I pinged my IP people today - they're still working on it. 2014-08-05T20:51:45Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2014-08-05T20:52:14Z blahzik quit (Quit: blahzik) 2014-08-05T20:52:20Z kristof: jasom: I agree. The amount of overlap is somewhat confusing and I think some reconciliation would be a good idea. 2014-08-05T20:53:03Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks drmeister: , if you dont mind me asking can I use the lisp side of a c++ binding in your Lisp in place of a decfun and then wrap my current high level code around it, and if so would it be faster 2014-08-05T20:53:44Z joe-w-bimedina: I hope that is clear 2014-08-05T20:54:50Z MoALTz__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-05T20:55:13Z drmeister: Joe - I think it would be as fast as any FFI because there is only so much that goes on between invoking a function in Common Lisp, translating arguments to C/C++, calling the C/C++ function, translating the result from C/C++ to a Common Lisp object. 2014-08-05T20:56:12Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-08-05T20:56:46Z joe-w-bimedina: ok, but if its garbage collected on the C++ side, that is a heck of a time savings. right? 2014-08-05T20:57:04Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-08-05T20:57:52Z drmeister: Re: replacing defcfun - I haven't worked with FFI's much at all so I don't know what's involved. What's involved in mine is to wrap a C++ function foo(int x, int y) and bar(double x, double y) in C++ you say: package["EXT"].def("foo",&foo).def("bar",&bar) 2014-08-05T20:58:21Z drmeister: That gives you the function (FOO x y) and (BAR dx dy) in Common Lisp. 2014-08-05T20:58:42Z drmeister: Sorry - (EXT:FOO x y) and (EXT:BAR dx dy) 2014-08-05T20:58:47Z zickzackv joined #lisp 2014-08-05T21:00:54Z joe-w-bimedina: wow that is simple, if there is any way I can help as far as, submitting info about my tests etc.., let me know I plan to start testing it as soon as it comes out, (the implementation independant way) 2014-08-05T21:01:12Z drmeister: If you want fast - don't write trivial functions in C++ that need to be called a lot of times. Put arguments in arrays and pass the arrays to a C++ that does a lot of operations in one go. Calling Lisp functions and C functions from Lisp is expensive relative to calling C functions from C. 2014-08-05T21:01:39Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-05T21:02:02Z drmeister: What I described was the Clasp dependent way - where you use Clasp to run your higher level Common Lisp code. 2014-08-05T21:02:54Z ARM9 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-05T21:03:24Z drmeister: The other thing that you can do is use the C++ AST matching facilities built into clasp to write your FFI. I believe stassats is interested in doing that (if he hasn't lost patience with me). In that case you write Common Lisp that searches your C++/C code and builds the same kind of FFI interface you are building now by hand. 2014-08-05T21:04:06Z drmeister: I do the latter to build an interface between my Common Lisp and the Memory Pool System garbage collector. 2014-08-05T21:04:13Z drmeister: (work in progress) 2014-08-05T21:05:19Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-05T21:05:32Z ussid18 joined #lisp 2014-08-05T21:05:36Z joe-w-bimedina: In my bindings I do have to wrap the functions one by one so not sure if I can do that, but on the functions I create from scratch, that would give a speed boost, except that using foreign-alloc to pass arrays is extremely slow. That sounds interesting: " In that case you write Common Lisp that searches your C++/C code" will there be any anfo included with your Lisp to show how to do that, or is it pretty straightforward? 2014-08-05T21:06:38Z davazp joined #lisp 2014-08-05T21:07:03Z MoALTz_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-05T21:08:04Z drmeister: I provide a pretty thin Common Lisp wrapper to the LLVM ASTMatcher/Refactoring library described here: http://clang.llvm.org/docs/LibASTMatchers.html 2014-08-05T21:08:08Z zarul joined #lisp 2014-08-05T21:08:08Z zarul quit (Changing host) 2014-08-05T21:08:08Z zarul joined #lisp 2014-08-05T21:10:01Z drmeister: Like I said - it's easy to expose C++ libraries within Clasp. So I exposed the Clang library - the entire C++ AST class hierarchy and all of the functions/methods I need are exposed here: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/b27d1705781dc8c693f4 2014-08-05T21:11:27Z drmeister: Then I wrote a Common Lisp layer on top of that that makes simple operations simpler. I'll write some examples that use those. I also put up a video that shows a pretty early version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h31pURzgYX8 2014-08-05T21:12:18Z joe-w-bimedina: Thanks for that, I will keep that bookmarked, ooh great a video and examples, thanks:) 2014-08-05T21:13:30Z drmeister: Another good thing about it is that if the API that you are wrapping changes, your program can update your FFI automatically. 2014-08-05T21:14:22Z Ayey_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-05T21:14:25Z dan64 quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-08-05T21:15:10Z dan64 joined #lisp 2014-08-05T21:16:39Z przl joined #lisp 2014-08-05T21:17:53Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-08-05T21:18:10Z joe-w-bimedina: This is awesome, I'm going to have my tutor help me implement this into my library, he is great at this kind of stuff, maybe with your Lisp, his help and my steadfast diligence I can get my Library, that uses your code in to OpenCv, I'm going to have my tutor really help me tighten up my whole library before I release, so it should be a good advertisment of your library 2014-08-05T21:18:10Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-05T21:18:30Z joe-w-bimedina: *for your Lisp 2014-08-05T21:18:52Z drmeister: That just came in handy - I spent the last month rewriting my calling convention so I pass arguments on the stack rather than in frames on the heap. I created whole new class hierarchies and rearranged a lot of code. Yesterday I reran the static analyzer and it completely rebuilt the interface between my C++ code and the MPS garbage collector. I don't have write the GC interface by hand, it's about 10,000 lines of code, and if I miss o 2014-08-05T21:18:53Z drmeister: ne pointer - it's like dropping a wrench in a jet engine. 2014-08-05T21:20:07Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-05T21:20:49Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-08-05T21:21:05Z joe-w-bimedina: you mean the "your program can update your FFI automatically" part? 2014-08-05T21:22:46Z joe-w-bimedina: yea that is probably what you meant. dum ?, 2014-08-05T21:23:16Z drmeister: No, garbage collector part - If my interface fails to scan absolutely every pointer in my code (there are thousands of them) then that pointer will go stale very quickly and the system will crash. 2014-08-05T21:23:42Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2014-08-05T21:24:25Z joe-w-bimedina: if you can trust it that much, maybe I don't have to worry about rushing to implement it, 2014-08-05T21:24:25Z pjb: - 2014-08-05T21:24:26Z drmeister: It would be like if you are defining hundreds of structs in your FFI and you miss one instance variable in one struct which causes a misalignment of the Common Lisp and C++ structures. 2014-08-05T21:25:03Z joe-w-bimedina: before the 1 to 2years ,is it?, of test are done 2014-08-05T21:25:21Z drmeister: ? 2014-08-05T21:25:53Z drmeister: I don't understand your last question. 2014-08-05T21:27:13Z joe-w-bimedina: I was told I should wait 1 to 2 years before I use you Lisp in a professional setting, but if you are really able to trust your code that much , it give me confidence to take a leap 2014-08-05T21:29:33Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-05T21:29:59Z jchochli_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-05T21:30:05Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-08-05T21:30:15Z drmeister: "Trust but verify". If you are using it in the second use-case you can verify the output by hand and gain trust. I don't think it's ready to be trusted in the first use-case yet. 2014-08-05T21:30:30Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-08-05T21:30:43Z ussid18 quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-05T21:31:31Z joe-w-bimedina: first use as in clasp dependent or other? 2014-08-05T21:31:40Z joe-w-bimedina: "first use" as in clasp dependent or other? 2014-08-05T21:31:52Z azynheira quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-05T21:32:11Z drmeister: First use-case == expose C++ library in Clasp, write your code in Clasp. 2014-08-05T21:32:44Z drmeister: Second use-case == Write code in clasp to search your C++ code and generate a human readable FFI for your library that you load into another Common Lisp. 2014-08-05T21:32:54Z WarWeasle quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )) 2014-08-05T21:33:21Z AdmiralBumbleBee joined #lisp 2014-08-05T21:33:47Z joe-w-bimedina: ok great, I was going to do the latter, any I can gather pls let me know, I'll keep an eye on specific things if you ask me to 2014-08-05T21:34:12Z joe-w-bimedina: ok great, I was going to do the "second use", any I can gather pls let me know, I'll keep an eye on specific things if you ask me to 2014-08-05T21:34:19Z drmeister: The first use-case is dangerous for code you depend on. I would not want Clasp driving my google car or operating my google pacemaker. 2014-08-05T21:34:21Z raymondillo joined #lisp 2014-08-05T21:35:03Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-05T21:35:04Z joe-w-bimedina: if you say second use is dependable that is good enough for me, thanks for the confidence 2014-08-05T21:35:20Z drmeister: Clasp's numerical functions, the pathname functions have not been exhaustively tested. Who's got time for that? 2014-08-05T21:35:43Z drmeister: The second use you can verify by reading the code that you generate. 2014-08-05T21:36:01Z the8thbit is now known as evil-the8thbit 2014-08-05T21:36:27Z joe-w-bimedina: ok if I notice any anomalies do I just post them here? 2014-08-05T21:36:56Z raymondillo left #lisp 2014-08-05T21:37:01Z drmeister: There's going to be a github site. Any differences between what Clasp does and what the CLHS specifies will be considered an error. 2014-08-05T21:39:13Z drmeister: I'm hoping people will be turned on by the easier C++ refactoring capabilities and the easy LLVM accessibility to pick it up and help me improve it. There's also fun stuff to do like writing a better compiler that gives access to the Common Lisp AST like the Clang AST library. 2014-08-05T21:40:59Z drmeister: There's also fun stuff like exposing C++ GUI libraries like Qt and 3D graphics libraries that aren't available to other lisps because of the difficulty involved in writing FFI's. 2014-08-05T21:42:43Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 2014-08-05T21:42:48Z drmeister: Imagine if any C++ library could be easily hooked into Common Lisp to extend it. 2014-08-05T21:43:40Z drmeister: And if all this complicated, fiddly mucking about with FFI's just went away. 2014-08-05T21:44:55Z seabot: when will clasp see the light of day 2014-08-05T21:45:11Z joe-w-bimedina: so then you would have a bunch of low level functions right or would they be fully operational and work as they do in the C++ side,....that is very interesting, well if you give me an idea how I can help with that, like exact instructions, I can devote part of every day to helping make that happen 2014-08-05T21:45:13Z drmeister: It is said that Common Lisp can absorb the capabilities of lesser languages - now it can absorb their libraries as well! 2014-08-05T21:45:24Z drmeister laughs evilly. 2014-08-05T21:45:30Z drmeister: (ahem) 2014-08-05T21:45:34Z InfusoElAmbulant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-05T21:45:42Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2014-08-05T21:46:31Z pnpuff: drmeister: why use C++? Because is funny or because we're forced :-) 2014-08-05T21:46:47Z joe-w-bimedina: so would that be all with the Clasp interpreter or like an add on module to Lisp itself...either way I can get behind that 2014-08-05T21:46:48Z drmeister: seabot: I'm just waiting for our lawyers to give me the green light. I'm a University professor and the University owns what I do. 2014-08-05T21:46:55Z seabot: ah i see 2014-08-05T21:47:00Z seabot: well hopefully they don't shut that down 2014-08-05T21:47:20Z drmeister: pnpuff: C++ is popular - all the hot libraries are written in C++. 2014-08-05T21:47:44Z drmeister: joe-w-bimedina: Clasp is a compiler. 2014-08-05T21:47:59Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2014-08-05T21:48:10Z joe-w-bimedina: oops sorry about that, meant compiler 2014-08-05T21:49:00Z drmeister: joe-w-bimedina: No problem - but here of all places we want to make sure people realize that CL is a compiled language. 2014-08-05T21:49:17Z MrWoohoo2 is now known as MrWoohoo 2014-08-05T21:49:37Z pnpuff: drmeister: after CLASP we have to work at a CL to fortran compiler 2014-08-05T21:49:45Z pnpuff: (if you want) 2014-08-05T21:49:59Z joe-w-bimedina: found that out yesterday:) So what would be something I can do to make "now it can absorb their libraries as well" happen 2014-08-05T21:50:41Z joe-w-bimedina: if it is above my level I can pay my tutor to bring me up to speed 2014-08-05T21:50:56Z drmeister: pnpuff: No need - hopefully there will be a Fortran compiler based on LLVM (Flang - http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTM1NzA) 2014-08-05T21:51:20Z drmeister: Anything that generates LLVM-IR interoperates with Clasp. 2014-08-05T21:52:16Z pnpuff: ok I see 2014-08-05T21:52:24Z pnpuff: just now 2014-08-05T21:53:59Z drmeister: I'm more interested in the idea of custom generating LLVM-IR for different problems. You need something to run fast? Generate LLVM-IR using Clasp. Guaranteed to be as fast as C because Clang generates LLVM-IR from C. 2014-08-05T21:54:27Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-05T21:54:59Z drmeister: You could side-step the dynamic/boxing/unboxing aspects of Common Lisp when you want and do stuff that needs to be fast in C or directly in LLVM-IR. 2014-08-05T21:54:59Z joe-w-bimedina: drmeister: I can do stuff that would help Lisp absorb OpenCv alot btw 2014-08-05T21:57:35Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-05T21:58:17Z drmeister: Gotta run - bbl 2014-08-05T21:58:41Z joe-w-bimedina: thans for all the info, drmeister: :) 2014-08-05T21:59:15Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-05T21:59:27Z pnpuff quit 2014-08-05T21:59:50Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-08-05T22:02:22Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-05T22:04:21Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-05T22:05:01Z kristof quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-05T22:10:30Z TDog_ joined #lisp 2014-08-05T22:10:42Z Guthur`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-05T22:11:15Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-08-05T22:11:52Z fmu quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-05T22:11:52Z Natch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-05T22:11:54Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-05T22:12:00Z Zeedox quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-05T22:12:08Z Guthur`` joined #lisp 2014-08-05T22:12:25Z TDog_ is now known as TDog 2014-08-05T22:12:39Z Natch joined #lisp 2014-08-05T22:13:04Z blahzik joined #lisp 2014-08-05T22:13:12Z Borbus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-05T22:13:19Z Borbus joined #lisp 2014-08-05T22:14:22Z sigjuice quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-05T22:14:32Z fmu joined #lisp 2014-08-05T22:14:47Z Tuxedo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-05T22:15:14Z sigjuice joined #lisp 2014-08-05T22:15:34Z davazp quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-05T22:15:36Z Tuxedo joined #lisp 2014-08-05T22:16:23Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2014-08-05T22:18:45Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-08-05T22:19:44Z dmiles_afk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-05T22:19:45Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2014-08-05T22:21:22Z moore33 quit 2014-08-05T22:27:03Z ehu_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-05T22:28:38Z kristof joined #lisp 2014-08-05T22:29:22Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-08-05T22:31:19Z Sgeo joined #lisp 2014-08-05T22:31:28Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-05T22:33:57Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-05T22:42:18Z bend3r joined #lisp 2014-08-05T22:45:03Z davazp joined #lisp 2014-08-05T22:47:20Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-08-05T22:47:25Z davorb_ joined #lisp 2014-08-05T22:48:05Z shridhar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-05T22:48:11Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2014-08-05T22:51:55Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-08-05T23:00:24Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-05T23:01:57Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-05T23:02:22Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-05T23:03:18Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-05T23:04:09Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-05T23:04:23Z evil-the8thbit is now known as the8thbit 2014-08-05T23:05:07Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-08-05T23:05:53Z didi` joined #lisp 2014-08-05T23:07:17Z didi quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-05T23:08:32Z przl joined #lisp 2014-08-05T23:11:25Z logand` joined #lisp 2014-08-05T23:13:19Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-05T23:13:48Z jchochli_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-05T23:15:35Z logand quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-05T23:17:12Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-08-05T23:18:18Z davazp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-05T23:30:35Z normanrichards joined #lisp 2014-08-05T23:31:33Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-05T23:32:47Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-08-05T23:34:33Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-05T23:36:47Z byte48 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-05T23:36:56Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-05T23:38:28Z davorb_ quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2014-08-06T01:06:40Z ivan\ quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-06T01:07:13Z phax joined #lisp 2014-08-06T01:07:17Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-06T01:07:56Z joe-w-bimedina: I notice in the CLHS examples whenever a variable is set outside a let, setf is used and usually no defparameter is with it, why is that, SBCL spits out warnings when you do that at the REPL, though it does let you 2014-08-06T01:08:07Z Bike: the examples are old. 2014-08-06T01:08:22Z DGASAU` joined #lisp 2014-08-06T01:08:31Z Bike: in like, maclisp, or early CL probably, you wouldn't get a warning. 2014-08-06T01:08:35Z Bike: just remember that examples aren't normative. 2014-08-06T01:08:46Z joe-w-bimedina: so what would be the correct way to rewrite that situation, just use a defparameter 2014-08-06T01:08:53Z joe-w-bimedina: ? 2014-08-06T01:08:56Z Bike: Pretty much. 2014-08-06T01:08:58Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-06T01:09:28Z joe-w-bimedina: Thanks alot Bike: for the quick response, that solved a big mystery for me:) 2014-08-06T01:12:30Z Guthur joined #lisp 2014-08-06T01:13:40Z urandom_1 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-08-06T01:14:55Z Guthur: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143322 2014-08-06T01:15:06Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-08-06T01:15:13Z _5kg joined #lisp 2014-08-06T01:15:17Z Guthur: SBCL is dropping to ldb with what i have above 2014-08-06T01:15:30Z Guthur: it does not get to the second break point 2014-08-06T01:15:37Z Guthur: any ideas? 2014-08-06T01:15:54Z Guthur: interestingly this only happens on Linux 2014-08-06T01:15:58Z kristof: joe-w-bimedina: setf is better used for 'places'. A healthy combination of deparameter's and defvar's for variables indicates to the reader more clearly what you want semantically 2014-08-06T01:16:19Z Guthur: the same code runs on windows, obviously the foreign lib build is different 2014-08-06T01:19:12Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2014-08-06T01:23:32Z ch077179 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-06T01:32:22Z bcoburn` joined #lisp 2014-08-06T01:32:22Z blahzik quit (Quit: blahzik) 2014-08-06T01:33:35Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-06T01:38:30Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2014-08-06T01:46:41Z manuel___ joined #lisp 2014-08-06T01:46:45Z manuel_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-06T01:47:26Z manuel___ is now known as manuel_ 2014-08-06T01:49:25Z Guthur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T01:49:52Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T01:51:23Z ahungry: defvar vs defparameter, is there any difference? I couldn't really tell the last time I checked the #'documentation on each 2014-08-06T01:51:50Z seabot: yes 2014-08-06T01:52:09Z seabot: if you execute a defvar a second time it does nothing 2014-08-06T01:52:28Z ahungry: But you can change it via a setf? 2014-08-06T01:52:30Z seabot: this actually describes it pretty well: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_defpar.htm 2014-08-06T01:52:42Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Exit IRC/Hibernate) 2014-08-06T01:52:55Z seabot: yeah, check the example on that page to see 2014-08-06T01:53:34Z ahungry: Thanks seabot that page is great I guess I need to make more use of the clhs 2014-08-06T01:54:17Z seabot: haha i just remembered having seen that specific page before- clhs can be a little bit hard to decipher sometimes 2014-08-06T01:54:22Z seabot: i do recommend always looking there first though 2014-08-06T01:54:31Z didi` quit (Quit: you can't /fire me, I /quit) 2014-08-06T01:55:03Z longlius_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T01:56:54Z Longlius joined #lisp 2014-08-06T01:57:04Z varjag quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-08-06T01:57:40Z isoraqathedh quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2014-08-06T01:57:54Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-06T01:58:58Z _5kg quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-06T01:59:05Z isoraqathedh joined #lisp 2014-08-06T02:00:53Z _5kg joined #lisp 2014-08-06T02:02:15Z leo2007 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-06T02:03:32Z kristof joined #lisp 2014-08-06T02:05:38Z quazimodo quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-06T02:05:46Z manuel_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-06T02:05:57Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-08-06T02:07:07Z quazimodo quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-06T02:07:44Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-08-06T02:10:39Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2014-08-06T02:17:24Z quazimodo quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-06T02:17:43Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-08-06T02:17:48Z lagging_troll quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T02:22:47Z moore33 joined #lisp 2014-08-06T02:24:04Z moore33 quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-06T02:26:49Z jleija joined #lisp 2014-08-06T02:28:52Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-06T02:29:56Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2014-08-06T02:38:31Z jaimef quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-06T02:38:38Z jaimef joined #lisp 2014-08-06T02:39:16Z JuniorRoy quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-06T02:39:18Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2014-08-06T02:51:48Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-08-06T02:56:02Z eak_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-06T02:56:08Z eak joined #lisp 2014-08-06T02:57:16Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2014-08-06T02:57:40Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-08-06T03:09:39Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-08-06T03:15:03Z phserr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-06T03:25:24Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-06T03:26:50Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-08-06T03:27:19Z nipra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-06T03:27:25Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2014-08-06T03:30:05Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-06T03:42:49Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-06T03:43:12Z jarm quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-06T03:43:19Z jarm_ joined #lisp 2014-08-06T03:45:04Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: experience interrupted by missing activity) 2014-08-06T03:50:51Z jarm_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-06T03:56:39Z DrCode quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-06T03:57:32Z DrCode joined #lisp 2014-08-06T03:59:49Z kristof joined #lisp 2014-08-06T04:01:01Z blahzik joined #lisp 2014-08-06T04:04:03Z pchrist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-06T04:05:23Z ecraven quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-06T04:05:28Z pchrist joined #lisp 2014-08-06T04:07:51Z leo2007 joined #lisp 2014-08-06T04:11:03Z ovidnis joined #lisp 2014-08-06T04:15:14Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T04:16:17Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-08-06T04:17:26Z ubii joined #lisp 2014-08-06T04:21:25Z joe-w-bimedina: is there anything wrong with multiply a number by 1d0 to convert it to a double float, instead of using coerce? 2014-08-06T04:22:55Z DrCode quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T04:23:03Z Bike: clhs float/f 2014-08-06T04:23:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_float.htm 2014-08-06T04:23:05Z Bike: use that 2014-08-06T04:23:10Z nug700 joined #lisp 2014-08-06T04:23:16Z kristof: But more importantly, you don't typically cast in lisp 2014-08-06T04:23:36Z harish_ joined #lisp 2014-08-06T04:23:37Z DrCode joined #lisp 2014-08-06T04:24:06Z Bike: if you do (* x 1d0) it'll just look mysterious 2014-08-06T04:25:36Z joe-w-bimedina: ok thanks, thats what I thought, that it would look a little weird, thanks for the float idea, i had no idea about prototyping 2014-08-06T04:25:48Z nalbyuites_ is now known as nalbyuites 2014-08-06T04:27:29Z wizzo joined #lisp 2014-08-06T04:28:01Z chu joined #lisp 2014-08-06T04:32:10Z ovidnis_ joined #lisp 2014-08-06T04:32:18Z ovidnis quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-08-06T04:32:33Z ovidnis_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-06T04:32:44Z ovidnis joined #lisp 2014-08-06T04:46:47Z akersof joined #lisp 2014-08-06T04:51:31Z blahzik left #lisp 2014-08-06T04:52:06Z blahzik joined #lisp 2014-08-06T04:56:19Z dim quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-06T04:56:37Z JuniorRoy joined #lisp 2014-08-06T04:57:51Z MouldyOldBones quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-06T04:57:52Z jackdaniel quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-06T04:58:01Z jackdaniel joined #lisp 2014-08-06T04:58:01Z anunnaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-06T04:58:12Z daimrod quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-06T04:58:30Z anunnaki_ joined #lisp 2014-08-06T04:58:45Z daimrod joined #lisp 2014-08-06T04:58:45Z dim joined #lisp 2014-08-06T05:00:02Z MouldyOldBones joined #lisp 2014-08-06T05:04:06Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-06T05:07:16Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-08-06T05:07:22Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-06T05:08:47Z ubii quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-06T05:14:55Z Sauvin joined #lisp 2014-08-06T05:15:03Z Sauvin quit (Changing host) 2014-08-06T05:15:03Z Sauvin joined #lisp 2014-08-06T05:17:17Z gendl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-06T05:26:33Z ggole joined #lisp 2014-08-06T05:28:07Z gendl joined #lisp 2014-08-06T05:29:47Z work_op joined #lisp 2014-08-06T05:30:44Z blahzik quit (Quit: blahzik) 2014-08-06T05:32:45Z Sauvin quit (Quit: mIRC for Linux ain't all it's cracked up to be.) 2014-08-06T05:33:05Z Sauvin joined #lisp 2014-08-06T05:33:51Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-08-06T05:39:51Z adlai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-06T05:41:13Z banjara joined #lisp 2014-08-06T05:44:41Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-08-06T05:44:43Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-06T05:45:53Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-08-06T05:46:32Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-08-06T05:48:05Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-08-06T05:50:34Z Guthur``: on the off chance anyone new has joined since my last query...any ideas on how to solve this http://paste.lisp.org/display/143322 2014-08-06T05:50:42Z pidof quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-06T05:50:46Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-08-06T05:50:55Z Guthur``: or hints on how to investigate 2014-08-06T05:52:07Z H4ns: is that in the first or the second break? 2014-08-06T05:52:07Z minion: H4ns, memo from rpg: I think mailman on cl.net is dead. Getting resets whenever I try to connect to the admin interface. 2014-08-06T05:52:21Z Zhivago: guther: You broke memory. :) 2014-08-06T05:52:53Z JuniorRoy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-06T05:54:37Z loke: Guthur``: You did something that invoked undefined behaviour 2014-08-06T05:54:42Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-06T05:54:49Z adlai joined #lisp 2014-08-06T05:54:53Z loke: Guthur``: did you at any time set (OPTIMIZE (SAFETY 0))? 2014-08-06T05:55:03Z H4ns: "you did something that caused sbcl to crash" 2014-08-06T05:55:14Z fikusz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-06T05:55:20Z H4ns: i win. 2014-08-06T05:55:35Z H4ns: but that is only because pjb apparently is not present. 2014-08-06T05:57:24Z Bike: loke: it's ffi code 2014-08-06T05:57:54Z Bike: not sure i'd be able to figure anything out about it without knowing about mass-set-box, i think, incidentally 2014-08-06T06:00:30Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-06T06:02:56Z akersof 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too exotic 2014-08-06T07:06:37Z Guthur``: i looked through the called function as well, and it's nothing to complex either 2014-08-06T07:06:44Z Guthur``: just some assignment to that struct 2014-08-06T07:06:57Z Guthur``: i wonder if it is some sort of alignment issue 2014-08-06T07:07:20Z Guthur``: and it's writing outside the bounds of the allocate foreign object 2014-08-06T07:07:33Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-06T07:08:32Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-06T07:08:50Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-06T07:09:52Z Guthur``: i'll add the foreign code as well, it's very small 2014-08-06T07:13:54Z Guthur``: added a foreign code annotation 2014-08-06T07:13:59Z Guthur``: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143322#1 2014-08-06T07:15:08Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-08-06T07:16:25Z Ralt joined #lisp 2014-08-06T07:18:55Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-08-06T07:19:59Z H4ns: you need to isolate the problem into the smallest possible test case 2014-08-06T07:20:44Z H4ns: it is not entirely unlikely that your memory is corrupted somewhere completely different, and it is only a coincidence that the garbage collectoror is triggered at the location that you're now looking at. 2014-08-06T07:21:15Z H4ns: basically, by using the ffi and writing foreign code, you're getting all the unsafeness of programming in c. 2014-08-06T07:22:31Z wizzo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T07:22:32Z banjara quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-06T07:23:01Z H4ns: it certainly could also be a very silly mistake in the piece of c code that you've pasted, but if that is the case, you should be able to figure it out yourself unless you're trying to be joe-w-bimedina 2014-08-06T07:27:44Z przl joined #lisp 2014-08-06T07:28:04Z DGASAU` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-06T07:28:57Z brown` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-06T07:29:10Z DGASAU` joined #lisp 2014-08-06T07:29:15Z vinleod joined #lisp 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Now I want to scale the layout down but the pinboard-object-at-position does not work properly anymore. I searched google and found out that I should update the pinboard-object bounds by altering the hint table of the object. I have not tried it yet, but wouldn't altering the 2014-08-06T07:51:26Z khb: hint table cause a repositioning/rescaling of the object on which the scaling is applied again? 2014-08-06T07:53:02Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T07:53:19Z khb: Or shouldn't the apply-scale be used anymore? 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ZZZzzz…) 2014-08-06T08:56:25Z GGMethos joined #lisp 2014-08-06T08:58:00Z banjara quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-06T09:01:26Z nug700 quit (Quit: bye) 2014-08-06T09:01:33Z Rieand joined #lisp 2014-08-06T09:02:00Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-06T09:02:22Z isoraqathedh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-06T09:03:06Z Rieand: weird, don't wanna insult but do people actually use lisp? there are 400 something people here, but how many talk every day? 2014-08-06T09:03:21Z stassats`: 5 2014-08-06T09:03:24Z Rieand: sorry 383 2014-08-06T09:03:39Z Rieand: seriously? 2014-08-06T09:03:57Z stassats`: will you talk tomorrow? be the sixth one! 2014-08-06T09:04:04Z Rieand: I might 2014-08-06T09:04:18Z H4ns: Rieand: what do you want to discuss, really? 2014-08-06T09:04:37Z Rieand: Looking for an alternative to...Well I still like C/C++ but not VS so much 2014-08-06T09:05:03Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-08-06T09:05:03Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-06T09:05:26Z H4ns: Rieand: maybe you can come up with an actual, specific question? 2014-08-06T09:05:28Z loke: Rieand: What kinds of software do you develop? 2014-08-06T09:05:37Z aumontabe quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-06T09:05:52Z Rieand: I don't 2014-08-06T09:06:34Z loke: Great, then you can use whatever you get the most pleasure out of. (a lot of people here gets lots of satisfaction from using Lisp, but to each their own) 2014-08-06T09:06:37Z Rieand: Anyway, actually getting a response is encouraging, maybe i'll think of a question later :P 2014-08-06T09:06:49Z JuniorRoy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-06T09:06:50Z Rieand: been seeing alot of dead crap on IRC 2014-08-06T09:06:57Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-06T09:06:57Z Rieand: haven't been on in years... 2014-08-06T09:07:25Z H4ns: Rieand: maybe just waiting a few hours and looking at the logs would be an approach that makes you look less like a dick 2014-08-06T09:08:07Z Rieand: Tried that, but then maybe I was in the wrong place before 2014-08-06T09:08:13Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-08-06T09:08:18Z aumontabe joined #lisp 2014-08-06T09:09:10Z Guthur joined #lisp 2014-08-06T09:09:15Z Rieand: H4na maybe a little less hostility would make you look less like a dick 2014-08-06T09:09:24Z Rieand: but 2014-08-06T09:09:30Z Rieand: I know I started it, sorry 2014-08-06T09:09:40Z JuniorRoy joined #lisp 2014-08-06T09:09:54Z khb quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2014-08-06T09:11:11Z loke: The key to getting clout on IRC is to be humble at first :-) 2014-08-06T09:11:46Z Zhivago: Rieand: Some people use lisp to lure in trolls. :) 2014-08-06T09:11:48Z Rieand: and later? 2014-08-06T09:11:49Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-06T09:11:56Z Rieand: i'm not a troll 2014-08-06T09:11:59Z Guthur: had to go back and check the logs to see how H4ns was apparently being a dick 2014-08-06T09:12:03Z loke: Rieand: Later it's OK to tell people to fuck off 2014-08-06T09:12:32Z loke: Rieand: Look, I can tell stassats` that he's a smelly tofu, and I'm not getting kicked! 2014-08-06T09:12:36Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-08-06T09:12:41Z loke: (please dont' kick me) 2014-08-06T09:12:46Z stassats`: that's because you are too far away 2014-08-06T09:13:00Z Rieand: hehe 2014-08-06T09:13:14Z Guthur: Rieand: really looked like trolling, it had no real worth other than to be construed as inflammatory 2014-08-06T09:13:39Z Zhivago: Rieand: Generally later there are some new troll foot hat-stands. 2014-08-06T09:13:46Z loke: Rieand: anyway, if you have programming experience and are _really_ interested in learning Lisp (and not just here to troll), then most of us would recommend this: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 2014-08-06T09:14:07Z Rieand: Guthur: If honest questions hurt so bad, maybe you should re-evaluate 2014-08-06T09:14:54Z Hydan quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-08-06T09:14:55Z Rieand: Let me restart 2014-08-06T09:15:16Z Rieand: What would I want to use Lisp for? 2014-08-06T09:15:21Z loke: Rieand: Every channel has their own culture for better or worse. 2014-08-06T09:15:25Z stassats`: to impress women 2014-08-06T09:15:31Z H4ns: Rieand: we don't know. 2014-08-06T09:15:45Z Rieand: I'm more like a layman thinking about trying to make some money programming but...Lisp isn't really good for that eh? 2014-08-06T09:15:49Z loke: Rieand: Lisp is a multi-paradigm language. Highly flexible and dynamic, but also high performance compared to other dynamic languages 2014-08-06T09:16:11Z loke: Rieand: It supports pretty much ever programming paradigm out there, so it _can_ be used for pretty much everything. 2014-08-06T09:16:26Z H4ns: Rieand: if you want to make money programming, better learn php or java 2014-08-06T09:16:31Z loke: Rieand: There are things it's not so good for, however. It's still not recommended for mobile developent, for example. 2014-08-06T09:17:04Z isoraqathedh joined #lisp 2014-08-06T09:17:21Z Rieand: Honestly I'm sorry for acting like a troll, went to my old IRC hideouts and they're dead now after 10 years or so. Guess I was pissed about that 2014-08-06T09:17:31Z Rieand: sorry 2014-08-06T09:17:50Z Rieand: its nice that there are actually people here, thanks 2014-08-06T09:18:01Z loke: It's particularly powerful for highly dynamic systems, where for example you want to easily change a long-running application without restarting anything. Funnily enough, this is precisely what web application are. It's quite powerful for that. 2014-08-06T09:18:30Z H4ns: loke: "i don't test my code, because i can fix the running production server" 2014-08-06T09:18:39Z loke: H4ns: Indeed! 2014-08-06T09:18:59Z loke: H4ns: (that said, the long running system may be your development environment, but that's for whimps :-) ) 2014-08-06T09:19:01Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-08-06T09:19:32Z loke: http://blogs.msdn.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/communityserver-blogs-components-weblogfiles/00-00-01-32-02-metablogapi/8054.image_5F00_thumb_5F00_35C6E986.png 2014-08-06T09:22:00Z stardiviner quit (Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/) 2014-08-06T09:23:32Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2014-08-06T09:23:42Z Guthur: Rieand: it didn't hurt, its inflammatory, totally different 2014-08-06T09:23:47Z Ayey_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-06T09:23:51Z Rieand: I know, sorry 2014-08-06T09:23:53Z Guthur: your rephrase was the correct form 2014-08-06T09:24:17Z Rieand: hmm 2014-08-06T09:25:36Z umontabea 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2014-08-06T12:56:53Z Guthur: the foreign object was not used outside the binding of the cffi:foreign-object so i though it should be fine 2014-08-06T12:57:10Z Guthur: and indeed it never leaves the binding extend before the segfault 2014-08-06T12:57:40Z Guthur: is there some semantics of with-foreign-object i am missing, the same code was fine on windows, though that does not say much 2014-08-06T12:58:58Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-08-06T12:59:39Z adlai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-06T13:00:10Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-08-06T13:00:43Z adlai joined #lisp 2014-08-06T13:01:30Z przl joined #lisp 2014-08-06T13:01:55Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-08-06T13:04:17Z nalbyuites_ joined #lisp 2014-08-06T13:05:03Z nalbyuites quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-06T13:05:06Z Praise quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-06T13:05:38Z jaseemabid joined #lisp 2014-08-06T13:06:30Z Guthur: I understand that with-foreign-object can be stack alloc'd but should have really make a difference 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seconds) 2014-08-06T13:20:09Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-08-06T13:20:27Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-08-06T13:22:20Z ``Erik quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-06T13:22:30Z Guthur: well this is just plain weird, i can not apparently free any memory I alloc with cffi 2014-08-06T13:22:51Z nipra quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-06T13:23:19Z ircbrowse quit (Changing host) 2014-08-06T13:23:19Z ircbrowse joined #lisp 2014-08-06T13:23:30Z Harag quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-06T13:23:55Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-08-06T13:25:24Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T13:25:58Z ``Erik joined #lisp 2014-08-06T13:25:59Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-08-06T13:27:50Z Guest8063 is now known as micro 2014-08-06T13:30:02Z przl joined #lisp 2014-08-06T13:30:08Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-06T13:31:41Z Guthur: going to try a different implementation, can't help but think there is something really screwy going on with SBCL 2014-08-06T13:35:10Z juanlas joined #lisp 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sohail joined #lisp 2014-08-06T14:16:21Z H4ns: Guthur: if you say you cannot deallocate memory that has been allocated with cffi, it does not seem that you have full control over cffi yet. 2014-08-06T14:16:53Z Guthur: H4ns: yeah it wasn't that simple sorry, i was sort of thinking out loud 2014-08-06T14:17:22Z Guthur: but when i did change to foreign-alloc i got further, just blew up when i tried to free 2014-08-06T14:17:23Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-06T14:17:32Z Guthur: but if did a simple alloc/free it worke 2014-08-06T14:17:39Z H4ns: yes, because you've screwed up your memory somewhere. 2014-08-06T14:18:14Z ahungry_ joined #lisp 2014-08-06T14:18:22Z Guthur: can't see where though, I've been over the foreign code, it does manipulate it, and the memcopies it 2014-08-06T14:18:29Z H4ns: the pain with manual memory management is that it is hard to find the place where you screwed up, because the crashes usually happen in completely unrelated places (like garbage collection or freeing) 2014-08-06T14:18:33Z Guthur: remember the foreign code is not mine 2014-08-06T14:18:44Z Guthur: but it is a rather mature library 2014-08-06T14:19:25Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-08-06T14:19:32Z Guthur: the extent of my allocation is over 3 foreign calls, and i do not manipulate it directly 2014-08-06T14:19:54Z paul0 joined #lisp 2014-08-06T14:20:03Z banjara quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-06T14:20:57Z H4ns: still, the most likely cause for the problem is your code, not the compiler, cffi or the foreign library (if it is known to run). that is not to say it can't be in those, it is just not likely. maybe if you start with a very simple program afresh, you can see where you're (or something else) is doing things wrongly. 2014-08-06T14:21:21Z H4ns: when i start to use foreign libraries, i usually try to reproduce a demo program written in c in the dynamic language 2014-08-06T14:21:24Z Guthur: same code I have run, with no exaggeration about 100 times on Win32 with no issue 2014-08-06T14:21:38Z Guthur: all that does change is the platform 2014-08-06T14:21:38Z oGMo: you should _hope_ the problem is in your code, that way it's easy to fix 2014-08-06T14:21:49Z Guthur: oGMo: i wish it was 2014-08-06T14:21:56Z Guthur: but there really is next to no code 2014-08-06T14:21:57Z oGMo: i always hate finding the problem isn't mine, actually 2014-08-06T14:22:17Z oGMo: Guthur: got an example? are you sure it's not being freed elsewhere? 2014-08-06T14:22:20Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-06T14:22:29Z Guthur: just going to dig up the paste 2014-08-06T14:22:32Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-08-06T14:23:40Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-08-06T14:23:46Z Guthur: oGMo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143322#1 2014-08-06T14:24:04Z oGMo: oh sbcl 2014-08-06T14:24:08Z davorb_ joined #lisp 2014-08-06T14:24:09Z AdmiralBumbleBee quit (Quit: AdmiralBumbleBee) 2014-08-06T14:24:18Z oGMo: i've been having issues with sbcl recently 2014-08-06T14:24:28Z stassats`: who hasn't 2014-08-06T14:24:29Z eudoxia: oGMo: related to reader macros perhaps? 2014-08-06T14:24:34Z oGMo: eudoxia: um no 2014-08-06T14:24:39Z madmalik left #lisp 2014-08-06T14:24:42Z oGMo: mostly blowing up in the GC when foreign code is involved 2014-08-06T14:24:50Z eudoxia: oh so that's just me 2014-08-06T14:24:57Z oGMo: eudoxia: hah 2014-08-06T14:25:00Z Guthur: oGMo: exactly what i'm getting 2014-08-06T14:25:14Z oGMo: Guthur: does it work in CCL? though, not conclusive 2014-08-06T14:25:32Z Guthur: CCL had other issues 2014-08-06T14:25:47Z Guthur: when i tried to (ql:quickload :cells) i got a stackoverflow 2014-08-06T14:26:03Z oGMo: hrm 2014-08-06T14:26:10Z Guthur: I lost patience at that stage an rebooted to windows 2014-08-06T14:26:24Z Guthur: never thought it would come to having a better CL development experience on windows 2014-08-06T14:26:32Z oGMo: well in this case you could still be stepping on memory, e.g. if you're not allocating enough for m 2014-08-06T14:27:05Z oGMo: er 2014-08-06T14:27:06Z Guthur: umm, it's remotely possible they changed the struct since i created the interface code 2014-08-06T14:27:22Z Guthur goes to check 2014-08-06T14:27:30Z eudoxia: i just tried to quickload cells on CCL and got "component not found" 2014-08-06T14:27:34Z oGMo: what is the definition of struct mass? dMassSetZero is also zeroing two members you don't allocate 2014-08-06T14:27:54Z oGMo: it's surprising they don't provide a function to allocate for you 2014-08-06T14:28:02Z moore33 joined #lisp 2014-08-06T14:29:19Z moore33 quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-06T14:29:30Z Xach: eudoxia: which component was not found? 2014-08-06T14:30:25Z Xach: eudoxia: i don't know about cells, but some system definition files have obnoxious constructs like #+(sbcl clisp cmucl ...) (defsystem ...) so they don't even define the system unless it's a supported Lisp, leading to hard-to-track error messages. 2014-08-06T14:30:42Z Guthur: oGMo: umm, yeah that does look rather suspicious 2014-08-06T14:30:59Z eudoxia: Xach: well this is weird. i tried it again to see which one was not found and got the same stack overflow Guthur reported 2014-08-06T14:33:09Z Guthur: oGMo: yep that's the issue, why did this ever work on windows 2014-08-06T14:33:25Z Guthur: H4ns: looks like you are right, i'll have to eat some humble pie 2014-08-06T14:33:50Z normanrichards joined #lisp 2014-08-06T14:34:45Z Guthur: at least the CCL thing does not seem to be my fault 2014-08-06T14:34:54Z oGMo: Guthur: windows memory arrangement was probably different 2014-08-06T14:35:26Z oGMo: "celebrate, i can fix it easily!" 2014-08-06T14:35:44Z Shinmera: I've had SBCL blow up on me recently with some weird error where a number stopped being a number and was presented as some unreadable thing in the debugger. I should probably try to find a good test case for that so I can reproduce and report it properly. 2014-08-06T14:35:48Z lduros joined #lisp 2014-08-06T14:35:59Z eli joined #lisp 2014-08-06T14:36:19Z dlowe: Shinmera: if you're running with speed > safety, all bets are off 2014-08-06T14:36:25Z Shinmera: No optimizations done! 2014-08-06T14:36:28Z Guthur: oGMo: yep, that C, and I are suppose to be a vector and matrix respectively, but i have them marked as raw pointers 2014-08-06T14:36:57Z stassats`: dlowe: speed > safety has the bets 2014-08-06T14:37:03Z stassats`: speed = 0 doesn't 2014-08-06T14:37:06Z quazimodo quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-06T14:37:10Z stassats`: rather, safety 2014-08-06T14:37:10Z Guthur: and on linux this reported as bad thing when the foreign code tried to write 2014-08-06T14:37:14Z oGMo: Shinmera: i keep having it dump to ldb randomly when i'm not watching, and i have no idea how to approach the problem.. some things seem to suggest it's in the GC, but attaching gdb etc really doesn't help 2014-08-06T14:37:20Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-08-06T14:38:11Z oGMo: Guthur: well they probably are but something probably need to initialize/allocate them 2014-08-06T14:38:17Z stassats`: there is one known problem with interrupt handling 2014-08-06T14:38:39Z Shinmera: It might have to do because I'm hooking into sb-impl::call-with-timing and then manipulating the numbers returned by that but again, I haven't taken the time to properly investigate why and how it blows up. 2014-08-06T14:38:54Z quazimodo left #lisp 2014-08-06T14:40:01Z stassats`: then there is an elusive problem with defun-cached 2014-08-06T14:40:20Z stassats`: and another, probably related, with forwarding pointers not being replaced 2014-08-06T14:40:28Z oGMo: stassats`: i'm not sure it's an sbcl problem .. my problem with sbcl is more i have no real way to debug it 2014-08-06T14:40:33Z Guthur: ok, time to jump back to linux and see if i can fix this, oGMo thanks for the sport 2014-08-06T14:40:35Z Guthur: spot* 2014-08-06T14:40:38Z oGMo: the problem seems recent, but that could just be something else being fixed 2014-08-06T14:40:43Z oGMo: Guthur: good luck 2014-08-06T14:40:55Z Guthur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T14:41:05Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2014-08-06T14:41:19Z oGMo: i was hoping moving to another lisp might cause it to error differently and provide some help, but i haven't had the issue recur, so i dunno 2014-08-06T14:42:12Z Guthur joined #lisp 2014-08-06T14:43:54Z zacharias quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-06T14:44:34Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-06T14:45:44Z pt1_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-06T14:46:57Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-06T14:48:05Z przl joined #lisp 2014-08-06T14:51:17Z Ayey_ joined #lisp 2014-08-06T14:52:43Z Guthur: is there some way of doing the following with cffi (cffi:defctype vector (:float :count 3)) 2014-08-06T14:54:52Z varjag joined #lisp 2014-08-06T14:55:28Z stassats`: that would be a pointer 2014-08-06T14:56:51Z Guthur: yes, but i'm trying to avoid having to (:float :count 3) to all my structs that need it 2014-08-06T14:58:13Z Guthur: a clearer synonym would be beneficial 2014-08-06T14:58:53Z stassats`: nothing can be clearer than (:float :count 3) 2014-08-06T14:59:46Z AeroNotix: https://gist.github.com/AeroNotix/8079f2231afad36d72de trying to compile commonqt 2014-08-06T14:59:53Z AeroNotix: does it require a specific version or something? 2014-08-06T15:00:17Z Shinmera: My guess is you're compiling with Qt5 2014-08-06T15:00:32Z Guthur: stassats`: i would disagree but... 2014-08-06T15:01:01Z eudoxia: AeroNotix: do qmake-qt4 or whatever your distro has 2014-08-06T15:01:06Z eudoxia: since Shinmera is probably right 2014-08-06T15:01:06Z AeroNotix: ok 2014-08-06T15:01:28Z AeroNotix: eudoxia: that did the trick 2014-08-06T15:02:43Z eudoxia: i had the exact same problem when i tried to build Parasol 2014-08-06T15:02:56Z AeroNotix: eudoxia: archlinux? 2014-08-06T15:03:10Z Shinmera: And you're gonna have to repeat the manual build every time you update commonqt. 2014-08-06T15:03:24Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: surely I could script it 2014-08-06T15:03:29Z Shinmera: Surely you could 2014-08-06T15:03:29Z eudoxia: AeroNotix: specifically manjaro, but yeah 2014-08-06T15:03:36Z AeroNotix: eudoxia: oh so nooblinux :) 2014-08-06T15:03:42Z eudoxia: just change "qmake" to "qmake-qt4" in the .asd 2014-08-06T15:03:44Z AeroNotix: not "but yeah" either 2014-08-06T15:04:31Z Shinmera: Leave your distro snobbery out of this channel please, thanks. 2014-08-06T15:04:39Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: was joke 2014-08-06T15:04:50Z oGMo: Guthur: you can defcstruct it can't you? 2014-08-06T15:06:33Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-06T15:07:12Z Guthur: oGMo: umm possibly, I'm unsure if the alignment of a 3 member struct is the same as a 3 element array 2014-08-06T15:07:25Z eudoxia: https://wukix.com/mocl lists 2/3 clients as being in Japan 2014-08-06T15:07:52Z stassats`: Guthur: it is if you make it so 2014-08-06T15:08:06Z eudoxia: i like to think Japan has a massive Common Lisp dev community that we just don't usually hear about 2014-08-06T15:08:10Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-06T15:09:38Z stassats`: maybe they are just that reach and can blow $199 on it 2014-08-06T15:09:48Z oGMo: Guthur: well you'd make a struct that is a three-member array presumably 2014-08-06T15:10:13Z Guthur: stassats` oGMo : ah ok, will give that ago, cheers 2014-08-06T15:10:52Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-08-06T15:10:53Z oGMo: but this is why you should just use autowrap :p 2014-08-06T15:11:29Z Guthur: i had swig, it didn't do a stellar job though 2014-08-06T15:11:34Z harish_ joined #lisp 2014-08-06T15:11:35Z oGMo: swig sucks 2014-08-06T15:11:59Z jaseemabid quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-06T15:11:59Z eudoxia: swig is the only one that can bind C++, thoguh 2014-08-06T15:12:03Z eudoxia: too bad the CL backend is shit 2014-08-06T15:12:23Z oGMo: eudoxia: how does swig handle templates? or does it? 2014-08-06T15:12:38Z eudoxia: oGMo: i think you list them explicitly 2014-08-06T15:12:57Z eudoxia: http://www.swig.org/Doc1.3/SWIGPlus.html#SWIGPlus_nn30 2014-08-06T15:12:59Z p_l: oGMo: you need to have instantiated them explicitly 2014-08-06T15:13:04Z oGMo: my main hesitation in releasing the c++ stuff in c2ffi is template handling is difficult and it doesn't seem entirely possible to do automatically 2014-08-06T15:13:08Z p_l: oGMo: which is the only way to interact with templates anyway 2014-08-06T15:13:15Z oGMo: eudoxia, p_l: oh, well, i can do that hah 2014-08-06T15:13:16Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2014-08-06T15:13:33Z p_l: oGMo: I'm not sure if it's possible to do template handling nicely, ever, unless you're hijacking C++ compilation directly 2014-08-06T15:13:57Z eudoxia: oGMo: oh i didn't notice the cxx branch 2014-08-06T15:13:58Z oGMo: p_l: well, c2ffi sortof does .. parsing anyway 2014-08-06T15:14:08Z eudoxia: pls make that work with Qt 2014-08-06T15:14:41Z p_l: oGMo: the problem with templates is with uninstantiated ones. The rest is plain ;) 2014-08-06T15:14:55Z oGMo: eudoxia: well it doesn't handle everything and there is no autowrap support or cxx2c yet .. the latter is theoretically trivial if i can extract enough data 2014-08-06T15:16:10Z oGMo: p_l: yeah. presumably you would need to at least declare a full-typed (or whatever) template 2014-08-06T15:16:43Z banjara joined #lisp 2014-08-06T15:18:10Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-06T15:20:49Z akersof quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-06T15:21:32Z normanrichards quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-06T15:21:35Z banjara quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-06T15:25:12Z zadock joined #lisp 2014-08-06T15:26:46Z davorb_ quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-08-06T15:27:37Z enn quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-08-06T15:29:48Z CrazyEddy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-06T15:32:02Z estebian joined #lisp 2014-08-06T15:32:46Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2014-08-06T15:38:33Z stardiviner quit (Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/) 2014-08-06T15:44:41Z spockokt: morning 2014-08-06T15:46:14Z optikalmouse joined #lisp 2014-08-06T15:46:21Z abeaumont quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-06T15:49:43Z bambams_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-08-06T15:50:35Z Guthur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T15:50:41Z didi joined #lisp 2014-08-06T15:51:58Z eli_ joined #lisp 2014-08-06T15:56:55Z AeroNotix: How do I use *.ui files with commonqt? 2014-08-06T15:57:07Z abeaumont joined #lisp 2014-08-06T15:57:08Z stassats`: it's better no to 2014-08-06T15:57:13Z AeroNotix: stassats`: for real? 2014-08-06T15:57:19Z stassats`: for double 2014-08-06T15:57:29Z AeroNotix: stassats`: what makes you say that? 2014-08-06T15:59:06Z AeroNotix: With PyQt or C++ Qt you would take the ui files and generate the ui code from there. Is there nothing like that for commonqt? 2014-08-06T15:59:09Z Vivitron: eudoxia: I believe the "component not found only on first load" ql issue is fixed in the most recent client 2014-08-06T15:59:37Z pjb: I guess you could write a lisp program to take the ui file and generate the lisp code fromt here. 2014-08-06T16:00:16Z stassats`: AeroNotix: there isn't 2014-08-06T16:00:18Z AeroNotix: pjb: ala pyuic 2014-08-06T16:00:23Z AeroNotix: stassats`: sadness 2014-08-06T16:01:35Z abeaumont quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T16:02:57Z w37 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T16:03:10Z eudoxia: Vivitron: that was probably it 2014-08-06T16:03:43Z `JRG quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-08-06T16:03:59Z eudoxia: AeroNotix: an idea i've had for some time, that i haven't really taken any steps to implementing, would be a series of macros to do what .ui XML does but in real Common Lisp 2014-08-06T16:04:04Z eudoxia: basically a declarative GUI DSL 2014-08-06T16:04:15Z eudoxia: with the added benefit that it doesn't have to be dynamically loaded 2014-08-06T16:04:40Z AeroNotix: eudoxia: but you still need to turn that into the correct lisp code 2014-08-06T16:05:04Z eudoxia: well, sure, you need to write the macros 2014-08-06T16:09:18Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-08-06T16:10:49Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-08-06T16:11:05Z test1600 joined #lisp 2014-08-06T16:11:41Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-08-06T16:13:25Z rme joined #lisp 2014-08-06T16:13:53Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-08-06T16:14:54Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-08-06T16:15:47Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-06T16:16:02Z Ralt quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-06T16:18:13Z banjara joined #lisp 2014-08-06T16:20:22Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-08-06T16:20:24Z banjara quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-06T16:20:30Z blahzik joined #lisp 2014-08-06T16:20:34Z banjara joined #lisp 2014-08-06T16:20:44Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-06T16:22:33Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-06T16:26:25Z zickzackv joined #lisp 2014-08-06T16:26:46Z eli_: cl-launch seems to want to immediately exit after building my package. Is there a way to have it continue to run, with a REPL open? Is cl-launch the wrong tool here? 2014-08-06T16:26:59Z przl joined #lisp 2014-08-06T16:27:03Z banjara quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-06T16:27:34Z banjara joined #lisp 2014-08-06T16:28:50Z moore33 joined #lisp 2014-08-06T16:29:26Z Xach: eli_: It's normal for the lisp image to stop after it saves an executable or core to disk. 2014-08-06T16:29:33Z Xach: And, I think, inevitable. 2014-08-06T16:29:56Z Xach: eli_: I can think of some reasons to want it to keep going. What's your reason? 2014-08-06T16:30:21Z eli_: I didn't think I was dumping a core ... I didn't use any of the core dump options to cl-launch. Though I don't understand all the dependencies between cl-launch options so maybe there is some implicitness I'm missing. 2014-08-06T16:30:31Z moore33 quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-06T16:31:13Z Xach: How did you use it? 2014-08-06T16:31:14Z eli_: Xach: I need to poll an API regularly. I also need to compare the results of the previous and current API call (which means it makes more sense to have a long-running Lisp process than to fire up a new one each time with cron or something, I think.) 2014-08-06T16:31:55Z eli_: cl-launch -Q -s system-name -p package-name -o run-program.sh. And then when I run run-program.sh it loads all the code and then exits. 2014-08-06T16:32:14Z eli_: maybe it makes more sense for me to just dump a core with some *init-hooks* 2014-08-06T16:32:28Z eudoxia: why not just dump the previous API call result 2014-08-06T16:32:34Z eudoxia: serialize it somewhere 2014-08-06T16:32:38Z eli_: sure, I could do that 2014-08-06T16:32:41Z Xach: eli_: Oh. I don't know enough about cl-launch to say, sorry. Maybe it needs extra info about how to start. 2014-08-06T16:33:13Z jaseemabid joined #lisp 2014-08-06T16:33:24Z eli_ is now known as enn 2014-08-06T16:33:39Z Xach wrote buildapp because he couldn't figure out cl-launch's options or documentation 2014-08-06T16:33:52Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T16:34:06Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-08-06T16:34:56Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T16:35:16Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-06T16:36:15Z banjara quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-06T16:37:22Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-06T16:38:00Z the8thbit quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-06T16:38:54Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-08-06T16:40:02Z [1]test1600 joined #lisp 2014-08-06T16:40:12Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-06T16:40:12Z [1]test1600 is now known as test1600 2014-08-06T16:41:47Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2014-08-06T16:42:56Z blahzik quit (Quit: blahzik) 2014-08-06T16:43:30Z elderK joined #lisp 2014-08-06T16:43:42Z elderK: Hey peeps. I'm here on an intelligence gathering mission of mayhem! :P 2014-08-06T16:43:51Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-08-06T16:44:32Z elderK: First question, knowing that if you want to use CLOS well you shouldn't cling too tightly the ideas of C++, how do you guys have private properties on classes? 2014-08-06T16:44:43Z elderK: I haven't done much with CLOS so you'll have to forgive me. 2014-08-06T16:44:46Z pjb: elderK: I've seen some gray matter over there, go gather it. 2014-08-06T16:45:04Z stassats`: elderK: it's not possible 2014-08-06T16:45:05Z pjb: elderK: your premises are wrong. 2014-08-06T16:45:22Z Shinmera: Private properties are overrated anyway. 2014-08-06T16:45:30Z elderK: But it seems more like... instead of behavior and such being associated with a class as it is in C++, CLOS is more like... the data is the class and the methods are the behavior. Almost like function overloading in c++ but on steroids. 2014-08-06T16:45:35Z Bike: usual practice is to leave some slots as undocumented and/or documented as internal 2014-08-06T16:45:38Z Bike: i think 2014-08-06T16:45:39Z pjb: elderK: have a look at OpenC++ https://www.informatimago.com/articles/life-saver.html 2014-08-06T16:45:52Z Bike: and then not enforcing any compile-time errors on using those slots or whatever 2014-08-06T16:45:55Z elderK: Shinmera: Perhaps. 2014-08-06T16:45:56Z p_l: elderK: generally, there's no use for the concept of private properties 2014-08-06T16:46:08Z stassats`: beat the user with a ruler whenever he uses a private property 2014-08-06T16:46:16Z pjb: (defclass c () ((%slot :documentation "PRIVATE"))) 2014-08-06T16:46:24Z elderK: I guess what I'm really asking is how do CLers publish soem interface, some structure, without letting users of that code see more than they should? 2014-08-06T16:46:31Z p_l: elderK: with CLOS, you should instead think in terms of "protocols" (similar to "interface") which define the boundaries 2014-08-06T16:46:50Z Shinmera: by only exporting the symbols they need and then trusting them to know when they're being dangerous 2014-08-06T16:46:52Z p_l: elderK: defgeneric is your tool for creating the interface 2014-08-06T16:47:04Z elderK nods 2014-08-06T16:47:06Z elderK: That's what I was figuring :) 2014-08-06T16:47:14Z pjb: elderK: documentation, exporting only the public symbols from the package. 2014-08-06T16:47:16Z elderK: You tell them what's safe to use and touch via the interface you define using defgeneric, etc. 2014-08-06T16:47:53Z elderK: :P And if they touch the instance data of a class by way of slot-value or something, then buyer beware, right? 2014-08-06T16:48:02Z pjb: right. 2014-08-06T16:48:23Z p_l: you could probably do something bad with MOP, but why bother? 2014-08-06T16:48:37Z elderK: Aye. 2014-08-06T16:48:40Z pgomes joined #lisp 2014-08-06T16:48:49Z elderK: I believe there's an example in AMOP that adds private slots, etc. 2014-08-06T16:48:58Z elderK: But it has been a pretty long time since I last read that text. 2014-08-06T16:49:02Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-08-06T16:49:34Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-06T16:49:38Z elderK: The way I see it: all properties of the class are "private." They're all implementation detail. 2014-08-06T16:49:40Z stassats`: it can be circumvented 2014-08-06T16:49:41Z pjb: elderK: one thing that is not taken into consideration by most languages having a notion of interface, is that for a given implementation, you may want to publish different interfaces, for different kinds of clients. In C++, there's public/protected/private, but this is very coarse a way to define interfaces. Have a look at Modula-3 for a good example. 2014-08-06T16:49:46Z elderK: That's why you have the methods that work on the instances!: ) 2014-08-06T16:50:15Z elderK: That sounds interesting pjb 2014-08-06T16:51:01Z elderK: Just pondering things, trying to determine which language I'll use on my next projects. 2014-08-06T16:51:04Z elderK: :) 2014-08-06T16:51:06Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-08-06T16:51:22Z elderK: I'm getting dreadfully tired of the same usual languages. 2014-08-06T16:51:27Z elderK: C, C++, Java, C#... 2014-08-06T16:51:28Z stassats`: try COBOL 2014-08-06T16:51:30Z stassats`: or APL 2014-08-06T16:51:31Z elderK: :P 2014-08-06T16:51:32Z ben__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-06T16:51:38Z elderK: Maybe APL :P:) 2014-08-06T16:51:42Z elderK: Or CL, as I've done little in it :) 2014-08-06T16:51:45Z the8thbit joined #lisp 2014-08-06T16:52:04Z p_l: some of COBOL runtime environments are also interesting, even when programmed in C or even Java ;D 2014-08-06T16:52:10Z elderK: If you guys were going to start a project that could one day move to being a commercial product and thus potentially needing extra people to help maintain or work on it, 2014-08-06T16:52:14Z elderK: would you use something like CL? 2014-08-06T16:52:33Z elderK: Or would you work in something more "mainstream" just so you could, theoretically, make use of people in the future more easily? 2014-08-06T16:52:38Z phadthai: in CL, closures and dynamically bound variables are other alternatives for user code to manage custom data, even when using libraries or classes which don't explicitely support custom user data 2014-08-06T16:52:43Z elderK: Also, flu sucks. 2014-08-06T16:53:16Z pjb: elderK: I would. 2014-08-06T16:54:00Z elderK: For a commercial project, would the need to implement bindings and stuff yourself, not bother you? 2014-08-06T16:54:03Z elderK: For me, it doesn't. 2014-08-06T16:54:09Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T16:54:24Z pjb: Remember who has the gold, makes the rules. If you have the gold to start a project, notably a commercial one, then you can make the rule that CL has to be used. Employees will cater. 2014-08-06T16:54:25Z AeroNotix: elderK: we're all adults 2014-08-06T16:54:27Z elderK: But it seems to bother some people who've considered using "alternative" languages. 2014-08-06T16:54:47Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-08-06T16:54:56Z elderK: AeroNotix: Zwa? 2014-08-06T16:54:59Z elderK: :P Speak for yourself. 2014-08-06T16:55:20Z AeroNotix: elderK: We're all adult enough to know when and when not to use a private / undocumented interface 2014-08-06T16:55:22Z p_l: elderK: a significant portion of commercial clients won't give a damn regarding what language something is written in 2014-08-06T16:55:24Z pjb: If you're not developping a toy such as Yo, if you're really bringing some wealth to humanity, then bindings and stuff will be a very small percentage of your work! 2014-08-06T16:55:32Z AeroNotix: I've never thought to myself - "My god! I'm so glad that field was private!" 2014-08-06T16:55:55Z elderK: pjb: Understood and agreed :) 2014-08-06T16:55:55Z pjb: Quite the contrary! 2014-08-06T16:55:55Z |3b|: AeroNotix: try updating implementation of a widely used library sometime :p 2014-08-06T16:56:07Z pjb: For one thing, private fields or methods, can't be tested! 2014-08-06T16:56:10Z p_l: my usual experience with "private" is "thankfully IntelliJ gave me nice refactoring to change it to protected!" 2014-08-06T16:56:13Z stassats`: you just haven't been maintaining software where people used an internal feature and now you can't modify it 2014-08-06T16:56:14Z AeroNotix: |3b|: point is- if you don't document it as the public interface, why do you care? 2014-08-06T16:56:31Z Xach: Because you want people to be happy. 2014-08-06T16:56:32Z |3b|: AeroNotix: because users will use it anyway, and complain anyway, and waste your time 2014-08-06T16:56:38Z |3b|: at best 2014-08-06T16:56:44Z shridhar joined #lisp 2014-08-06T16:56:56Z AeroNotix: Xach: software and happiness are totally unrelated things 2014-08-06T16:57:05Z elderK: Not true, Aero ;) 2014-08-06T16:57:09Z elderK: |3b|: seconded. 2014-08-06T16:57:28Z elderK: pjb: I'm considering writing a point of sale system that doesn't suck as badly as one I worked on, at a company, a few years ago. 2014-08-06T16:57:32Z Xach: AeroNotix: I don't agree. 2014-08-06T16:57:40Z elderK: as I'm growing bored of workign where I am now. 2014-08-06T16:57:40Z pjb: stassats`: of course, one has to compromize between "internal" and "tested", and probably one should distinguish tests that come from the specification (TDD), and tests that are there to check that your internal implementation is correct. 2014-08-06T16:57:50Z Shinmera: We write software to improve lives in some form or another, which is very much related to happiness. 2014-08-06T16:57:51Z elderK: And I'm seriously considering different languages just to keep some spark alive ;) 2014-08-06T16:57:58Z |3b|: or maybe your business model ended up depending on other peoples's old broken software not stopping working 2014-08-06T16:58:07Z pjb: elderK: then you need a (several) secret weapon to make it better than the competition. CL can be it. 2014-08-06T16:58:29Z elderK: CL could certainly help, that's for sure. 2014-08-06T16:58:32Z |3b| isn't saying i actually like 'private' stuff, or the need for it, but it is there for a good reason 2014-08-06T16:58:44Z elderK: One thing that may seem silly and I'm not completely sure why I think about it is evolution. 2014-08-06T16:58:47Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-06T16:58:53Z elderK: C++, C, etc, are still growing in a sense, still evolving. New standards, etc. 2014-08-06T16:58:53Z pjb: elderK: seriously, the only alternative you might want to consider over CL would be Haskell, or some automatically proven programming language. (Coq?) 2014-08-06T16:58:57Z elderK: CL hasn't. 2014-08-06T16:59:00Z elderK: at least, new standards. 2014-08-06T16:59:06Z elderK: but then those languages aren't as flexible as CL. 2014-08-06T16:59:16Z p_l: elderK: because the language is flexible enough to be modified without new standards 2014-08-06T16:59:17Z stassats`: CL happened not to be braindamaged at birth 2014-08-06T16:59:22Z elderK: Most of what they are gaining now, have been in CL for a long time... 2014-08-06T16:59:26Z elderK: or rather, Lisp 2014-08-06T16:59:38Z pjb: CL is growing all the time: every time you write a new macro, you are a standard comitee making an extension to the CL language! 2014-08-06T16:59:41Z p_l: and there's a bunch of "unofficial" standards (full MOP, bordeaux-threads is kinda one, etc.) 2014-08-06T16:59:53Z elderK: Aye. THat's what I figured. 2014-08-06T16:59:57Z elderK: Unlike with C/C++ or something, 2014-08-06T16:59:59Z elderK: If I *want* something 2014-08-06T17:00:00Z elderK: then I add it. 2014-08-06T17:00:11Z elderK: And it will be treated as a first class citizen in CL if I wish it to be. 2014-08-06T17:00:13Z elderK: :) 2014-08-06T17:00:26Z elderK: Ah, I'm so glad you guys are helpful and willing to answer my questions! 2014-08-06T17:00:27Z elderK: :D 2014-08-06T17:00:56Z elderK: as for threading, what is support for threading like in the different implementations? 2014-08-06T17:01:06Z pjb: Remember, ViaWeb and ITA software were startup using CL to gain competitive advantage and finally to be sold to Yahoo and Google at a very good price! 2014-08-06T17:01:14Z elderK: Again, I haven't done too much in CL so I don't anything on that front. 2014-08-06T17:01:16Z AeroNotix: pjb: years ago though 2014-08-06T17:01:24Z pjb: elderK: bordeaux-threads. 2014-08-06T17:01:38Z elderK: *googles* 2014-08-06T17:01:41Z pjb: AeroNotix: perhaps we should raport it on the number of CL programmers. 2014-08-06T17:01:45Z AeroNotix: pjb: I'd be interested if the same tactic would work again 2014-08-06T17:01:46Z p_l: elderK: bordeaux-threads will be the common interface, individual support depends on implementation (and sometimes build options) 2014-08-06T17:01:48Z pjb: I'm not sure java startup will fare better here. 2014-08-06T17:01:57Z AeroNotix: pjb: reddit is a recent example 2014-08-06T17:02:00Z pjb: AeroNotix: Jamais deux sans trois! :-) 2014-08-06T17:02:08Z srcerer_ is now known as srcerer 2014-08-06T17:02:10Z elderK: Hmm 2014-08-06T17:02:17Z eudoxia: the ViaWeb argument is really getting old 2014-08-06T17:02:34Z eudoxia: it might work if you're arguing for clojure, since actual companies use that for web stuff 2014-08-06T17:02:37Z elderK: I'd be using CL simply becuase I'm sick to death of the "mainstream" languages. 2014-08-06T17:02:40Z pjb: eudoxia: I'm making a serie here: ViaWeb, ITA Software, … 2014-08-06T17:02:42Z elderK: They're just not interesting or exciting anymore. 2014-08-06T17:02:44Z xificurC joined #lisp 2014-08-06T17:02:52Z eudoxia: but Common Lisp for the web? there's quickdocs.org and that's it 2014-08-06T17:02:59Z elderK: As for bordeaux-threads, support seems badly lacking for Windows. 2014-08-06T17:03:03Z wizzo quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-08-06T17:03:11Z elderK: Which would be important... 2014-08-06T17:03:12Z pjb: Who uses Windows anymoer? 2014-08-06T17:03:17Z elderK: :P 2014-08-06T17:03:34Z elderK: Also, has anyone here written anything of a commercial nature in CL? 2014-08-06T17:03:51Z rme: me 2014-08-06T17:04:00Z pjb: me 2014-08-06T17:04:05Z elderK: Sweet. 2014-08-06T17:04:10Z stassats`: most of the regular users here 2014-08-06T17:04:12Z zarul quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-06T17:04:15Z elderK: What would I need to worry about when deploying binaries, like. 2014-08-06T17:04:16Z AeroNotix: So that's *at least* two people 2014-08-06T17:04:19Z pjb: There are quite a number of commercial companies using CL. 2014-08-06T17:04:30Z elderK: The binaries would include some part of the lisp system's image, wouldn't it? 2014-08-06T17:04:38Z pjb: Of course. 2014-08-06T17:04:47Z stassats`: not necessarily 2014-08-06T17:04:51Z eudoxia: >tfw i haven't been able to sneak Common Lisp into my job 2014-08-06T17:05:00Z AeroNotix: eudoxia: fuck em 2014-08-06T17:05:13Z pjb: bad job, change job. 2014-08-06T17:05:24Z elderK: So I guess... I'd have to find out whether I could distribute binaries without having to pay some royalties or whatever. 2014-08-06T17:05:31Z eudoxia: well it isn't exactly easy since it's pretty much an exclusively Django shop 2014-08-06T17:05:41Z elderK: I tend to play with ECL mostly. 2014-08-06T17:05:49Z elderK: eudoxia: I feel your pain a little. 2014-08-06T17:05:50Z elderK: :P 2014-08-06T17:05:51Z pjb: ITA software used sbcl, ViaWeb used clisp. 2014-08-06T17:05:51Z elderK: A little. 2014-08-06T17:06:04Z AeroNotix: pjb: was sbcl even viable back then? 2014-08-06T17:06:06Z pjb: Companies who don't distribute their software use Allegro or Lispworks. 2014-08-06T17:06:11Z pnpuff: :-( almost every kind of job is now not directly related to programming using only CL 2014-08-06T17:06:12Z pjb: Of course. 2014-08-06T17:06:36Z elderK: hmm 2014-08-06T17:06:39Z pjb: I'm joking when saying that sbcl is "maintained", but it has always been quite usable. 2014-08-06T17:06:45Z pjb: It started from cmucl! 2014-08-06T17:06:57Z elderK: :P Joking how? 2014-08-06T17:07:01Z elderK: Isn't sbcl the most "alive" of implementations? 2014-08-06T17:07:06Z elderK: It's always the one most commonly mentioned? 2014-08-06T17:07:13Z AeroNotix: it has the coolest name, that's why I use it 2014-08-06T17:07:16Z AeroNotix: literally 2014-08-06T17:07:21Z elderK: heheh 2014-08-06T17:07:27Z pjb: "maintained" is a bad word for me. It means there are bugs that need to be corrected vs. a finished product that doesn't have any bug left. 2014-08-06T17:08:02Z elderK: :) I like ECL as it seems simpler than SBCL. 2014-08-06T17:08:08Z pjb: it means changes that are introduced that gives you a lot of work updating your applications, vs. an implementation that is _stable_ and doesn't imposes changes on your code. 2014-08-06T17:08:19Z eudoxia: ECL is kinda dead though isn't it 2014-08-06T17:08:21Z pjb: They're much different. 2014-08-06T17:08:24Z pjb: Nope. 2014-08-06T17:08:29Z elderK: ECL still lives, afaik. 2014-08-06T17:08:32Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-06T17:08:40Z stassats`: if you can call that living 2014-08-06T17:08:52Z elderK: :) I guess I'd have to do some research comparing them. 2014-08-06T17:08:58Z elderK: Why X imp vs. Y imp. 2014-08-06T17:09:10Z AeroNotix: Or you could just focus on other things and pick one when it actually matters 2014-08-06T17:09:14Z eudoxia: >latest news 2014-08-06T17:09:16Z elderK: Exactly. 2014-08-06T17:09:17Z eudoxia: >2012 2014-08-06T17:09:25Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-08-06T17:09:27Z elderK: I was just about to say something similar, AeroNotix . 2014-08-06T17:09:30Z elderK: :) 2014-08-06T17:09:32Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-06T17:09:32Z AeroNotix: I'm sure 2014-08-06T17:09:37Z elderK: At the end of the day, they both speak CL. 2014-08-06T17:09:42Z elderK: And that's all that matters for now. 2014-08-06T17:10:21Z pjb: elderK: Try: telnet voyager.informatimago.com 8101 2014-08-06T17:10:28Z elderK: If you guys could point to anything that you considered "beautiful and maintainable" CL code, what would it be? 2014-08-06T17:10:34Z jasom_: Has anyone made a library function for running a program with a list of arguments, and returning the programs stdin/stdout as a bidirectional stream? 2014-08-06T17:10:35Z elderK: :P LispM? 2014-08-06T17:10:41Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-08-06T17:10:47Z AeroNotix: eudoxia: how far did you get in translating ui files? 2014-08-06T17:10:48Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 2014-08-06T17:10:51Z jasom_ is now known as jasom 2014-08-06T17:11:03Z przl joined #lisp 2014-08-06T17:11:08Z AeroNotix: I'm looking at it now and I'm just thinking to do stupid conversion between ui files and a defclass with slots containing widgets 2014-08-06T17:11:22Z AeroNotix: With :initforms as the widgets 2014-08-06T17:11:44Z elderK: oh, another thing to, pjb. 2014-08-06T17:11:47Z eudoxia: AeroNotix: it was just an idea, i didn't actually do anything 2014-08-06T17:11:47Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-06T17:11:52Z elderK: What about CL's interaction with other languages? 2014-08-06T17:12:13Z elderK: Not so much me using other libraries, that's no problem. 2014-08-06T17:12:16Z stassats`: other languages do not usually interact which other, except C 2014-08-06T17:12:17Z pjb: using sockets it's ok. using FFI, I frown a lot about it. 2014-08-06T17:12:21Z elderK: But other people using libraries I produce like a .so or .dll 2014-08-06T17:12:26Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-06T17:12:29Z stassats`: s/which/with each/ 2014-08-06T17:12:29Z eudoxia: elderK: i am of course biased but i think Crane is pretty good https://github.com/eudoxia0/crane 2014-08-06T17:12:52Z ch077179 joined #lisp 2014-08-06T17:13:17Z elderK: Cheers. 2014-08-06T17:13:19Z elderK: :) Bookmarked. 2014-08-06T17:13:31Z elderK: pjb: Why frown with FFI? 2014-08-06T17:13:54Z davazp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T17:14:22Z elderK: like, if I wanted my program to allow plugins... would people who wrote plugins for the program have to write them in CL? 2014-08-06T17:14:28Z elderK: no, of course not... 2014-08-06T17:14:30Z elderK duh 2014-08-06T17:14:30Z stassats`: elderK: you won't get popular opinions from pjb 2014-08-06T17:14:40Z elderK: stassats`: whyfore? :) 2014-08-06T17:14:47Z stassats`: because pjb 2014-08-06T17:14:51Z pjb: elderK: just stay here a couple of days and you'll see why! 2014-08-06T17:15:03Z draculus_ joined #lisp 2014-08-06T17:15:04Z eudoxia: elderK: cl-javascript was meant to allow people to write plugins 2014-08-06T17:15:20Z pjb: FFI calls very unsafe and buggy C code. Therefore it breaks all the good things you get from using CL. 2014-08-06T17:15:28Z juanlas joined #lisp 2014-08-06T17:15:37Z elderK: pjb: perhaps. 2014-08-06T17:15:41Z elderK: :) 2014-08-06T17:15:49Z elderK: Sometimes I thought the same when I was playing with scheme. 2014-08-06T17:15:59Z elderK: Lisp seems/ed so much more pure and sane than anything else. 2014-08-06T17:17:03Z draculus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-06T17:17:17Z pnpuff: I think CL and Fortran are still the two best languages on the planet 2014-08-06T17:17:30Z pnpuff: ...but it's a personal opinion 2014-08-06T17:17:35Z stassats`: what a sad planet that is 2014-08-06T17:17:37Z pjb: elderK: there are cl-python, verrazano (C to CL compiler) etc. 2014-08-06T17:17:43Z zarul joined #lisp 2014-08-06T17:17:51Z pjb: so you can use various other languages to write plug-ins to be loaded into CL. 2014-08-06T17:17:59Z pnpuff: stassats`: :-) 2014-08-06T17:18:02Z pjb: ah f2cl too, for fortran yes. 2014-08-06T17:18:20Z elderK: pjb: besides, with ffi, couldn't you just dlopen / dlsym anyway? 2014-08-06T17:18:29Z elderK: eudoxia: crane looks really cool 2014-08-06T17:18:30Z pjb: again, this is very bad. 2014-08-06T17:18:40Z elderK: If you'd be okay with it, I might write a cl-dbi driver for firebird. 2014-08-06T17:18:52Z pjb: If you want to use CL to avoid the crayziness of C/C++, then don't do FFI! 2014-08-06T17:18:59Z eudoxia: elderK: thanks C: and of course any new drivers are welcome 2014-08-06T17:21:33Z ccl-logbot joined #lisp 2014-08-06T17:21:33Z 2014-08-06T17:21:33Z names: ccl-logbot kushal pidof zarul juanlas draculus_ ch077179 przl xificurC shridhar zwer the8thbit pnpuff pgomes elderK Davidbrcz test1600 jaseemabid rme enn didi optikalmouse CrazyEddy estebian zadock MoALTz harish_ varjag Ayey_ eli lduros drmeister paul0 ahungry_ sohail Karl_Dscc stassats` k-stz atgreen ``Erik Shinmera eudoxia Praise nalbyuites_ adlai jchochli_ urandom_1 bit` gabot dkcl isoraqathedh DrCode dmiles_afk jchochli 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names: sellout FracV acieroid aksatac eagleflo_ brucem fe[nl]ix cmbntr_ |3b| gko zymurgy mood K1rk faheem_ clog mdallastella eMBee phf` pok__ galdor lemoinem zxq9 gz_ foom ramus dlowe s_e BlastHardcheese eee-blt redline6561 The_third_man arbscht otwieracz antoszka schjetne nightfly yroeht Posterdati newcup cyphase lupine awaythrick benny replcated guaqua oGMo Adeon cross dfox __main__ devn felideon bobbysmith007 honkfestival sjl Mandus njsg nimiux tbarletz felipe 2014-08-06T17:21:33Z names: SHODAN yauz quasisane _death samebchase Ober Fade tkd setheus Xach ck_ theBlackDragon inklesspen shwouchk renard_ rvirding splittist H4ns Neet peccu ozzloy d4gg4d___ ggherdov marsbot joga AeroNotix aerique_ sklr nitro_idiot qbit gensym Colleen__ tomaw tkd_ 2014-08-06T17:21:35Z Longlius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T17:21:42Z eudoxia: elderK: don't waste your time like i did. just use SLIME. 2014-08-06T17:21:48Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-08-06T17:22:00Z elderK: eudoxia: You tried to stick with Vim? 2014-08-06T17:22:02Z oGMo: i would recommend that too 2014-08-06T17:22:29Z stassats`: pjb: what a bunch of baloney 2014-08-06T17:22:59Z AeroNotix: which of the seven million XML libraries should I use? 2014-08-06T17:23:10Z AeroNotix: I have no specific requirements beyond "can read xml files / strings" 2014-08-06T17:23:16Z stassats`: cxml 2014-08-06T17:23:20Z AeroNotix: stassats`: thanks 2014-08-06T17:23:20Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-06T17:23:33Z draculus_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-06T17:23:36Z stassats`: and the cxml-stp backend is good 2014-08-06T17:23:43Z oGMo: yeah 2014-08-06T17:23:53Z AeroNotix: Lichtebau was working on it, that's the SBCL maintainer right? 2014-08-06T17:23:59Z elderK: as for implementations, 2014-08-06T17:24:16Z elderK: :) I'll choose the one with the best debugging capabilities. 2014-08-06T17:24:28Z stassats`: no, lichtblau is not _the_ SBCL maintainer 2014-08-06T17:24:29Z AeroNotix: elderK: SLIME + SBCL is a productive environment 2014-08-06T17:24:40Z AeroNotix: stassats`: you too <3 2014-08-06T17:24:53Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-08-06T17:24:59Z oGMo: having multiple CLs on hand is handy for debugging, because sometimes things that pass in one get flagged in another 2014-08-06T17:25:21Z eudoxia: elderK: for a while, but not too seriously 2014-08-06T17:25:27Z stassats`: Krystof is closest to _the_ maintainer 2014-08-06T17:26:00Z elderK: eudoxia: I've been using Vim near exclusively for 12 years... 2014-08-06T17:26:21Z elderK: :P and even when forced to use visual studio at work I use plugins to make it vimmy... 2014-08-06T17:26:27Z spockokt: i moved to emacs due to envy before i started learning CL 2014-08-06T17:26:31Z jasom: elderK: evil-mode 2014-08-06T17:26:32Z eudoxia: oh then i guess that justifies that 2014-08-06T17:26:33Z AeroNotix: lisp works a lot better with lisp 2014-08-06T17:26:35Z spockokt: been pretty comfortable so far 2014-08-06T17:26:39Z AeroNotix: uh emacs 2014-08-06T17:26:44Z AeroNotix: but same difference really 2014-08-06T17:26:50Z elderK nods 2014-08-06T17:27:02Z jasom: elderK: I've been using vi since 1992, and vim since 2001. evil-mode on emacs is an acceptable replacement (though I still use vim for non lisp stuff) 2014-08-06T17:27:04Z eudoxia: at one point i used sublime text to edit on one side of the screen and Emacs running SLIME with a REPL on the other side 2014-08-06T17:27:05Z elderK: I own a book on Emacs so I should just keep it nearby. 2014-08-06T17:27:07Z eudoxia: and just copied the code across 2014-08-06T17:27:19Z Shinmera: eudoxia: that sounds horrible 2014-08-06T17:27:34Z eudoxia: pls don't revoke my programmer license 2014-08-06T17:27:35Z elderK: I used to just have screen running. 2014-08-06T17:27:40Z elderK: One split would be the lisp repl. 2014-08-06T17:27:44Z elderK: the other vim 2014-08-06T17:27:46Z AeroNotix: I don't understand people who program in Lisp but then use an editor which is configured in Shitscript 2014-08-06T17:27:47Z elderK: and i'd just send shit across :P 2014-08-06T17:27:49Z elderK: buit it wasn't great. 2014-08-06T17:27:55Z elderK: wasn't the integration that SLIME seems to have. 2014-08-06T17:27:58Z Shinmera: eudoxia: I've committed PHP sins, if anything I'd lose mine before you yours 2014-08-06T17:30:06Z ccl-logbot joined #lisp 2014-08-06T17:30:06Z 2014-08-06T17:30:06Z names: ccl-logbot Nizumzen Bike kushal pidof zarul juanlas ch077179 przl xificurC shridhar zwer the8thbit pnpuff pgomes elderK Davidbrcz test1600 jaseemabid rme enn didi optikalmouse CrazyEddy estebian MoALTz harish_ varjag Ayey_ eli lduros drmeister paul0 ahungry_ sohail Karl_Dscc stassats` k-stz atgreen ``Erik Shinmera eudoxia Praise nalbyuites_ adlai jchochli_ urandom_1 bit` gabot dkcl isoraqathedh DrCode dmiles_afk jchochli umontabea manuel_ theos ehu 2014-08-06T17:30:06Z names: edgar-rft GGMethos Sauvin kutsuya Soft freiksenet Corey ahungry aoh j0ni sprang Intensity johs teiresias sshirokov jasom angavrilov_ stepnem bjorkintosh yacks Tuxedo_ rtoym m4dnificent srcerer frkout_ MrWoohoo nand1 dan64 j_king DGASAU vaporatorius hitecnologys gingerale ecraven froggey Jameser fikusz mishoo work_op gendl ggole MouldyOldBones dim daimrod anunnaki_ jackdaniel leo2007 pchrist eak jaimef _5kg ivan\ Vivitron kpreid pjb byte48 logand` bend3r 2014-08-06T17:30:06Z names: sigjuice fmu Borbus Natch Guthur`` TDog Patzy evbogue segv- khisanth_ easye uzo PuercoPop amadsen nisstyre kirin` Krystof ircbrowse WeirdEnthusiast cods zz_karupa tali713 ineiros p_l|backup zbigniew_ loke brandonz pillton jayne xristos anunnaki Kruppe Oddity xenophon ft drinkcoffee cibs luis phadthai copec tadni DKordic` Quasus vsync ndp`` mr-foobar joneshf joneshf-laptop mtd ered alexherbo2 troydm solidus_ no0y mikaelj heddwch ianmcorvidae Nshag Denommus 2014-08-06T17:30:06Z names: ThePhoeron Anarch jlarocco AntiSpamMeta Zhivago necronian chit araujo l3thal justinmcp djinni` zeitue clop milosn_ GuilOooo vlnx TheMoonMaster TristamWrk eigenlicht matija yeltzooo4 kbtr_ decent sfa_ les whartung yano codeburg cmatei Okasu wchun nicdev girrig _d3f abbe Amaan eazar001 stoned minion funnel jdz a13x15 micro p_l joast htmzr c74d smithzv cosmicexplorer lonjil hugod Blkt Jubb ferada tvaalen kanru killmaster mathrick Subfusc manfoo7` hyoyoung_ 2014-08-06T17:30:06Z names: nowhereman spacebat housel jtz InvalidCo axion jsnell farhaven schoppenhauer Tristam mal_ Kabaka stokachu keen____ kyl spockokt nightshade427 sbryant cpt_nemo Stablo rotty blakbunnie27 dRbiG vhost- stopbit oconnore ChibaPet tessier_ misv_ finnrobi rk[imposter] rvchangue alchemis7 wormphlegm arrdem diginet nihilatus victor_lowther superjudge__ _tca gluegadget endou__ matko specbot MightyJoe seabot asedeno z0d Tordek _8hzp pavlicek beppu drdo sellout FracV 2014-08-06T17:30:06Z names: acieroid aksatac eagleflo_ brucem fe[nl]ix cmbntr_ |3b| gko zymurgy mood K1rk faheem_ clog mdallastella eMBee phf` pok__ galdor lemoinem zxq9 gz_ foom ramus dlowe s_e BlastHardcheese eee-blt redline6561 The_third_man arbscht otwieracz antoszka schjetne nightfly yroeht Posterdati newcup cyphase lupine awaythrick benny replcated guaqua oGMo Adeon cross dfox __main__ devn felideon bobbysmith007 honkfestival sjl Mandus njsg nimiux tbarletz felipe SHODAN yauz 2014-08-06T17:30:06Z names: quasisane _death samebchase Ober Fade tkd setheus Xach ck_ theBlackDragon inklesspen shwouchk renard_ rvirding splittist H4ns Neet peccu ozzloy d4gg4d___ ggherdov marsam joga AeroNotix aerique_ sklr nitro_idiot qbit gensym Colleen__ tomaw tkd_ 2014-08-06T17:30:06Z pjb: exactly. 2014-08-06T17:30:06Z spockokt: we are all made of cons cells 2014-08-06T17:30:06Z eudoxia: the two fundamental particles are the symbol and the lambda 2014-08-06T17:30:14Z elderK: hehehehe 2014-08-06T17:30:17Z oGMo: tbh working with other things (c, c++, etc) is far more useful than pure lisp 2014-08-06T17:30:17Z AeroNotix: oGMo: it's bootable on x86? 2014-08-06T17:30:25Z oGMo: AeroNotix: no idea 2014-08-06T17:30:45Z elderK: It is. 2014-08-06T17:31:18Z elderK: AeroNotix: 2014-08-06T17:31:18Z elderK: :) 2014-08-06T17:31:18Z elderK: It's changed a fair deal since the first tiem I saw it. 2014-08-06T17:31:18Z elderK: When I first saw it, way back, it seemed like a joke in terms of what it did, could do. 2014-08-06T17:31:18Z elderK: but it's not a oke anymore. 2014-08-06T17:31:18Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-06T17:31:18Z elderK: It wont take over the world 2014-08-06T17:31:18Z elderK: but it's certainly cool 2014-08-06T17:31:18Z elderK: :) 2014-08-06T17:31:28Z akersof joined #lisp 2014-08-06T17:31:43Z elderK: I'd buy the authors and thsoe who work on movitz a coffee if I met em 2014-08-06T17:31:59Z elderK: :) 2014-08-06T17:32:00Z elderK: It's very cool 2014-08-06T17:32:00Z elderK: I hope they keep workingon it 2014-08-06T17:32:20Z eudoxia: movitz isn't being worked on though, is it? 2014-08-06T17:32:20Z elderK: work or another sick day... 2014-08-06T17:32:20Z elderK: ugh. 2014-08-06T17:32:20Z pjb: It was a university project. 2014-08-06T17:32:25Z pjb: You can take over if you will. 2014-08-06T17:32:42Z elderK: I think some stuff still happens with it. 2014-08-06T17:32:51Z elderK: I chekced on it awhile ago and was shocked by a recent commit. 2014-08-06T17:32:58Z elderK: maybe a year back 2014-08-06T17:33:00Z elderK: or six months 2014-08-06T17:33:17Z eudoxia quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-06T17:33:36Z elderK: oh for the days of highschool where I could be ill and take several days off... 2014-08-06T17:33:43Z elderK: alas for the working world... 2014-08-06T17:34:16Z AeroNotix: http://cxml.org/ so this was confusing for a lot longer than it should've been 2014-08-06T17:34:46Z whartung quit (Quit: whartung) 2014-08-06T17:34:52Z pjb: movitz is a CL implementation designed to implement kernels. It's "finished". Now, you should implement a kernel! 2014-08-06T17:35:23Z pjb: (possibly in doing so you might encounter bugs or missing features in movitz, so it'll have to he "maintained", but we'll know only if YOU write a kernel in CL!) 2014-08-06T17:36:09Z draculus_ joined #lisp 2014-08-06T17:36:17Z elderK: froggey 2014-08-06T17:36:24Z elderK: is implementing a kernel in cL :) 2014-08-06T17:37:06Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-08-06T17:37:11Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-08-06T17:39:02Z ARM9 joined #lisp 2014-08-06T17:40:07Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-08-06T17:41:42Z whartung joined #lisp 2014-08-06T17:42:25Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-08-06T17:42:42Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-08-06T17:43:06Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-06T17:44:18Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-08-06T17:44:46Z ch077179 quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2014-08-06T17:45:24Z umontabea quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-06T17:49:19Z umontabea joined #lisp 2014-08-06T17:49:56Z davorb_ joined #lisp 2014-08-06T17:55:42Z enn: How worried should I be/what can I do about "Starting a poll(2) without a timeout while interrupts are disabled." messages when using drakma:http-request? 2014-08-06T17:56:09Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2014-08-06T17:57:46Z stassats`: you should be/you need to give more information 2014-08-06T17:57:52Z work_op: das bad 2014-08-06T17:58:02Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-06T17:58:44Z davorb__ joined #lisp 2014-08-06T17:58:52Z enn: I'm calling drakma:http-request in lparallel worker threads with the default connection-timeout of 20 2014-08-06T17:59:34Z enn: with a thread pool of 10 2014-08-06T18:00:06Z enn: as far as I know I have not done anything on purpose to disable interrupts anywhere in my code 2014-08-06T18:01:56Z davorb_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-06T18:01:57Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-06T18:02:06Z elderK: Bacckk 2014-08-06T18:02:20Z enn: the functions that kick off the requests are called by trivial-timers:schedule-timer and run at different intervals (I have one that runs daily and one that runs once a minute) 2014-08-06T18:02:35Z enn: I am guessing it's the timers that are the problem? 2014-08-06T18:03:43Z amadsen left #lisp 2014-08-06T18:04:29Z stassats`: does schedule-timer create a new thread? 2014-08-06T18:04:43Z |3b|: it seems to be sb-ext:schedule-timer 2014-08-06T18:04:57Z stassats`: so, does it? 2014-08-06T18:05:21Z |3b|: docs don't mention it 2014-08-06T18:05:51Z stassats`: it is an option 2014-08-06T18:05:57Z enn: it appears to 2014-08-06T18:06:15Z enn: that is, it does, in my case. I see them in the thread list. 2014-08-06T18:06:56Z Zeedox_ joined #lisp 2014-08-06T18:07:04Z varjag quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-08-06T18:07:41Z stassats`: the interrupts are indeed disabled 2014-08-06T18:07:53Z enn: OK 2014-08-06T18:08:02Z stassats`: see sb-sys:with-interrupts 2014-08-06T18:08:23Z stassats`: and, make sure sb-ext:make-timer is run with thread T, otherwise interrupting things is a bad idea 2014-08-06T18:09:04Z shridhar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-06T18:09:54Z enn: aha, that does it. Thank you. 2014-08-06T18:10:02Z stassats`: does sb-impl::run-timer look funny only to me? 2014-08-06T18:10:37Z shridhar joined #lisp 2014-08-06T18:11:04Z |3b|: you mean (make-thread (without-interrupts...)...)? 2014-08-06T18:11:11Z stassats`: yes 2014-08-06T18:11:33Z |3b|: doesn't make sense to me 2014-08-06T18:11:55Z tadni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T18:11:57Z AeroNotix: bit of an emacs question -- when I evaluate something in SLIME, then there's a print of the object, I can right click it to get a menu with some options about the object 2014-08-06T18:12:02Z AeroNotix: is there a keybind to open that menu? 2014-08-06T18:12:21Z |3b|: interrupt-thread part doesn't look like it disables interrupts either 2014-08-06T18:12:31Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-08-06T18:12:43Z tadni joined #lisp 2014-08-06T18:12:50Z stassats`: C-c C-v i 2014-08-06T18:12:59Z AeroNotix: stassats`: thanks! 2014-08-06T18:13:10Z stassats`: or, that's one menu entry 2014-08-06T18:13:12Z AeroNotix: stassats`: hmm no 2014-08-06T18:13:22Z |3b| also isn't sure from the docstring of make-timer if it is the "runs without interrupts" is only supposed to be when THREAD isn't T or always 2014-08-06T18:13:24Z stassats`: C-c C-v C-h 2014-08-06T18:13:57Z stassats`: |3b|: right, that's the same thing i noticed 2014-08-06T18:14:16Z AeroNotix: stassats`: that's not bound to the same thing on mine. What's the name of it's bound to on yours? 2014-08-06T18:15:26Z |3b|: stassats`: wrapping evaluation of a variable in without-interrupts doesn't make sense to me whether it should be disabling interrupts or not 2014-08-06T18:16:34Z shridhar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-06T18:18:01Z shridhar joined #lisp 2014-08-06T18:20:20Z marsam is now known as marsbot 2014-08-06T18:22:19Z |3b|: defaulting to current thread and interrupts disabled seems a bit odd for something in sb-ext also 2014-08-06T18:23:03Z elderK quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-06T18:25:16Z elderK joined #lisp 2014-08-06T18:25:42Z Sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T18:29:44Z moore33 joined #lisp 2014-08-06T18:30:59Z moore33 quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-06T18:34:29Z joe-w-bimedina joined #lisp 2014-08-06T18:38:33Z stassats`: interrupting the current thread is strange too 2014-08-06T18:38:53Z joe-w-bimedina: Is it ok to place functions in alphabetical order in a .lisp file, if that places them out of order of dependency, I dont get errors when I do this or warnings but I was wondering if I'm missing something 2014-08-06T18:39:17Z Bike: no, that should be fine, though i'm not sure why you'd want to 2014-08-06T18:40:03Z |3b|: you can't inline functions that haven't been defined yet, but you can still compile calls to them 2014-08-06T18:40:06Z stassats`: sort them by the dewey decimal classification 2014-08-06T18:41:35Z Adlai` joined #lisp 2014-08-06T18:42:04Z lduros quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T18:42:04Z stassats`: i guess (without-interrupts (allow-with-interrupts function)) for a new thread is to mimic the interrupt-thread behaviour 2014-08-06T18:42:08Z lduros` joined #lisp 2014-08-06T18:42:30Z stassats`: even though that never happened and nobody complained, do we still want that? 2014-08-06T18:42:34Z elderK quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-06T18:42:38Z joe-w-bimedina: ok thanks for the advice, was the dewey decimal thing a joke or is that a valid system 2014-08-06T18:42:55Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-06T18:43:04Z |3b|: stassats`: am i reading correctly that that form is completely pointless? 2014-08-06T18:43:06Z stassats`: i guess it would break existing code if implemented correctly, so, i'll just remove it and document it properly 2014-08-06T18:43:15Z stassats`: |3b|: that's my point 2014-08-06T18:43:21Z |3b|: (without-interrupts (allow-with-interrupts function)) evaluates to function 2014-08-06T18:43:33Z stassats`: so, i'll promote it to a feature 2014-08-06T18:44:03Z adlai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-06T18:44:21Z |3b| thinks without-interrupts on user code is a bad idea, so yeah 2014-08-06T18:44:43Z |3b|: is with-interrupts even exposed in a user package? 2014-08-06T18:44:50Z stassats`: "If THREAD is NIL, FUNCTION is run in an unspecified thread." 2014-08-06T18:45:12Z stassats`: well, that's not true, since it will be the same thread where run-timer runs, but why does it interrupt itself? it already has the control over it 2014-08-06T18:45:58Z |3b|: is run-timer called in some unpredictable way? 2014-08-06T18:47:30Z stassats`: yes, from a signal handler 2014-08-06T18:47:38Z stassats`: so, i guess it's true 2014-08-06T18:49:02Z stassats`: except for sb-wtimer 2014-08-06T18:50:49Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-08-06T18:50:59Z stassats`: T case is clear cut, just update the documentation, but i don't see a point interrupting the current thread, but not doing that won't disable interrupts, which changes the API 2014-08-06T18:51:07Z stassats`: nobody probably cares about that 2014-08-06T18:54:07Z khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth 2014-08-06T18:54:49Z AdmiralBumbleBee joined #lisp 2014-08-06T18:55:06Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-08-06T18:57:09Z jasom: Is it possible to get the path to my asdf system (e.g. for loading things at runtime)? 2014-08-06T18:57:33Z Shinmera: asdf:system-source-directory 2014-08-06T18:57:37Z stassats`: may i interest you in a way that doesn't involve asdf? 2014-08-06T18:57:37Z pjb: jasom: bad idea. At run-time, the asdf system is long gone! 2014-08-06T18:57:44Z jasom: stassats`: yes 2014-08-06T18:58:14Z stassats`: jasom: #.(or *compile-file-truename* *load-truename*) 2014-08-06T18:58:29Z jasom: stassats`: I like it. 2014-08-06T18:58:36Z pjb: Won't work in an executable saved image! 2014-08-06T18:58:41Z jasom: pjb: defaulting to where the source is is better than nothing, right? 2014-08-06T18:59:02Z pjb: You can use defaults, but you should search where the application data are "installed". 2014-08-06T18:59:17Z jasom: pjb: Yes it will, it will just be wrong if the source is deleted or the image is copied to a different machine. 2014-08-06T18:59:33Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-08-06T18:59:55Z pjb: jasom: probably the best way would be to load resources into the image. 2014-08-06T19:00:46Z jasom: pjb: then, in your opinion, best way to load a lisp file that is known at build time, but will fail to compile until run-time? 2014-08-06T19:01:08Z jasom: sorry won't fail to compile, will fail to load (I misspoke) 2014-08-06T19:01:28Z pjb: I don't understand what you're saying. 2014-08-06T19:02:36Z przl joined #lisp 2014-08-06T19:05:15Z nalbyuites_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-06T19:05:41Z pnpuff quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T19:11:38Z jasom: nevermind, I was able to fix it so it would load. 2014-08-06T19:12:23Z jasom: apparently the lispworks reader is perfectly happy with (defun foo:bar () ) when bar is not interned in foo 2014-08-06T19:12:58Z jasom: Also emacs is very slow when editing a 26MB lisp file. 2014-08-06T19:13:37Z jaseemabid quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T19:14:50Z stassats` quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-06T19:16:52Z eeezkil joined #lisp 2014-08-06T19:18:44Z bambams_ joined #lisp 2014-08-06T19:19:36Z jasom: and 78290 DEFUNs takes about 2 minutes to compile on sbcl 2014-08-06T19:21:06Z jstypo joined #lisp 2014-08-06T19:24:48Z Fare joined #lisp 2014-08-06T19:25:28Z pjb: jasom: as long as there's a (defpackage "FOO" (:export "BAR")). 2014-08-06T19:25:57Z _death: (declaim (optimize (speed 0) (compilation-speed 3))) 2014-08-06T19:26:06Z `JRG joined #lisp 2014-08-06T19:26:27Z jasom: _death: is compilation-speed even a valid optimze option? 2014-08-06T19:26:40Z _death: clhs optimize 2014-08-06T19:26:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_optimi.htm 2014-08-06T19:26:44Z pjb: Yes. 2014-08-06T19:30:27Z _death: jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143334#1 2014-08-06T19:31:57Z jasom: I also find it somewhat insane that gtk apparently defines 10s of thousands of functions 2014-08-06T19:32:40Z jasom: actually that's not *quite* true; I have a separate defun for each combination of class and method, even when the method is inherited 2014-08-06T19:32:56Z onur joined #lisp 2014-08-06T19:33:18Z onur is now known as Guest77861 2014-08-06T19:34:10Z Guest77861 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-06T19:36:34Z drmeister: Fare: Hello 2014-08-06T19:38:52Z Fare: hi 2014-08-06T19:38:57Z Fare: any luck with asdf ? 2014-08-06T19:39:24Z Fare: (and of course, after asdf, you can recompile all of quicklisp, and compare to ecl) 2014-08-06T19:40:15Z drmeister: I've gotten all of asdf to load - now I need to implement CREATE-IMAGE. 2014-08-06T19:40:26Z Fare: yay! 2014-08-06T19:40:37Z Fare: congrats. 2014-08-06T19:41:09Z Fare: That's already commit-worthy, you know — can you pass asdf tests (that don't involve create-image)? 2014-08-06T19:41:13Z drmeister: What are the lisp-object-files that are passed to create-image? 2014-08-06T19:41:28Z drmeister: What tests can I do that don't create-image? 2014-08-06T19:41:43Z Fare: IIRC, in ecl, it's the linkable .o's for the individual files, in order. 2014-08-06T19:41:53Z Fare: make test l=clasp 2014-08-06T19:42:02Z Fare: after editing suitable files 2014-08-06T19:43:02Z drmeister: Are you around for the next couple of days? I'd love to pick your brains about that aspect of it because the alternative is digging into the ECL source to figure out what C:BUILDER does. 2014-08-06T19:43:23Z drmeister: My system is a little broken at the moment because I'm adding weak hash tables and weak pointers. 2014-08-06T19:45:35Z drmeister: Excellent - finally! My weak key hash table just splatted a key that was garbage collected. 2014-08-06T19:46:38Z drmeister: You'd think the boehm GC documentation/header file would mention that you need to allocate weak pointers with GC_MALLOC_ATOMIC and not GC_MALLOC. If you do the latter Boehm keeps the pointer alive despite you telling it that it is a disappearing_link GRRRR. 2014-08-06T19:54:13Z drmeister: Since it's working at the moment I'll try the make test l=clasp now. 2014-08-06T19:57:01Z davorb__ quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-08-06T19:58:11Z jstypo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-06T20:00:58Z didi quit (Quit: you can't /fire me, I /quit) 2014-08-06T20:01:06Z drmeister: What files do I edit to run the tests? I see run-tests.sh 2014-08-06T20:01:17Z m4dnificent is now known as madnificent 2014-08-06T20:03:33Z drmeister: Fare: I'm going to grab a coffee - if you have a moment to provide some instruction on what files to edit to test asdf on clasp I have some time to run tests. 2014-08-06T20:08:45Z Hydan quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-08-06T20:09:13Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-08-06T20:10:17Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2014-08-06T20:12:15Z josemanuel quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-06T20:17:06Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-06T20:17:42Z Fare: yes, run-tests.sh is one 2014-08-06T20:18:42Z Fare: possibly uiop/os.lisp or some such -- be sure to put :clasp before :ecl in implementation-type, with a suitable comment 2014-08-06T20:19:35Z jasom: Is it intentional that changing the .asd file causes all the sources to be rebuilt? 2014-08-06T20:22:28Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-08-06T20:24:21Z eeezkil quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-08-06T20:24:35Z CrazyEddy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-06T20:25:11Z pgomes quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-06T20:30:36Z moore33 joined #lisp 2014-08-06T20:31:51Z moore33 quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-06T20:32:34Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2014-08-06T20:32:46Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-08-06T20:35:14Z drmeister: Fare: What changes to run-tests.sh do you recommend? I see the entry for ecl) https://gist.github.com/drmeister/3fd182d33e930099e068 2014-08-06T20:36:11Z Fare: you should add an entry for clasp, copying from ecl 2014-08-06T20:36:27Z Fare: mutatis mutandis 2014-08-06T20:36:37Z drmeister: command="${ECL:-ecl}" flags="-norc -load sys:cmp" eval="-eval" what black magic be these? (besides sh shell scripting) 2014-08-06T20:36:52Z Fare: describe how to invoke ECL 2014-08-06T20:37:13Z Fare: ECL is the environment variable -- should be CLASP for you, I suppose 2014-08-06T20:37:17Z davorb_ joined #lisp 2014-08-06T20:37:55Z Fare: flags --- anything required to bring load the compiler and any other prerequisite for asdf, if any -- and avoid user configuration files 2014-08-06T20:38:15Z Fare: and be quiet 2014-08-06T20:38:53Z Fare: -eval followed by argument will evaluate the argument — you have that, don't you? 2014-08-06T20:39:08Z Fare: (I personally prefer --eval to -eval, but to each his own) 2014-08-06T20:39:47Z davorb_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-06T20:40:25Z Fare: you might want to submit a similar patch to the lisp-invocation library, which will be required to test create-image, and is also required in the minimakefile branch of asdf, that does away with the shell scripts to replace them with lisp scripts. 2014-08-06T20:40:33Z drmeister: I've got to add --eval - it has been many moons since -eval did anything. 2014-08-06T20:41:15Z Fare: some implementations print the evaluation results, some don't. Some quit after, some don't. Some accept multiple forms, some don't. 2014-08-06T20:41:41Z Fare: asdf's tests and cl-launch can cope with the greatest common denominator 2014-08-06T20:42:08Z Fare: oh yeah, a patch to cl-launch would be great, too. 2014-08-06T20:43:02Z Fare: won't it be great when #!/usr/bin/cl can invoke clasp ? :-) 2014-08-06T20:45:00Z jchochli_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T20:45:16Z Adlai` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-06T20:45:29Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-08-06T20:45:35Z Fare: btw, what kind of static analyses are in your compiler? 2014-08-06T20:45:37Z jchochli_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T20:45:40Z Adlai` joined #lisp 2014-08-06T20:45:42Z drmeister: If you could have your dream Common Lisp command-line-options/startup/run/shutdown process - what would it look like? 2014-08-06T20:45:53Z drmeister wants to make dreams come trueeeee 2014-08-06T20:45:56Z Fare: :-) 2014-08-06T20:46:01Z drmeister: (ahem) 2014-08-06T20:46:14Z Fare: mirror those in cl-launch? :-) 2014-08-06T20:46:33Z Fare: I would have --eval accept multiple forms and not print anything 2014-08-06T20:46:41Z Fare: at least by default 2014-08-06T20:48:13Z Fare: do NOT forget to accept -- (or --end-toplevel-options like SBCL, yuck) as meaning "done with CLASP options, what follows is to be passed to the user program". 2014-08-06T20:49:05Z drmeister: Ok, that's going to take a little bit of retooling. 2014-08-06T20:49:13Z Fare: and have an easy way to get to the user-program arguments, that also works when dumping a standalone executable 2014-08-06T20:50:23Z Fare: cmucl used to not accept -- or anything — which pretty much made it impossible to invoke a program directly. 2014-08-06T20:51:17Z Fare: lispworks has MSDOS-era horrors in dealing with command-line arguments on Windows. On Windows, please use the standard C++ library for parsing the command line. 2014-08-06T20:51:31Z drmeister: I don't do Windows. 2014-08-06T20:51:41Z Fare: I suppose that simplifies it 2014-08-06T20:51:44Z drmeister: (seriously) I don't do Windows. 2014-08-06T20:51:53Z Fare: good for you 2014-08-06T20:52:09Z Fare: neither do I, but I sometimes remotely debug ASDF for Windows :-( 2014-08-06T20:52:17Z Bike: Well, it's something to think about for when you do Windows later, possibly. 2014-08-06T20:52:23Z Fare: or did. Not sure I would do that anymore. 2014-08-06T20:52:25Z drmeister: But to run the asdf tests, does asdf read the output? 2014-08-06T20:52:43Z Fare: that's a trick question with a trick answer 2014-08-06T20:53:20Z Fare: that has evolved in the minimakefile branch (which should be renamed the no_more_shell_scripting branch) 2014-08-06T20:53:46Z Fare: the test running tool looks for a success marker output at the end of each test 2014-08-06T20:53:59Z drmeister: Currently I dump a bunch of debugging info at startup that will frighten and confuse anything that tries to read my output. 2014-08-06T20:54:09Z Fare: or is the the exit status of the test? I don't remember. 2014-08-06T20:54:31Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-08-06T20:54:41Z Fare: does this info include timestamps, addresses, or other varying output? 2014-08-06T20:55:06Z Fare: if so, you'll break the "clean compile" test, that checks that asdf doesn't introduce new/different output when loaded. 2014-08-06T20:55:37Z Fare: or at least, please have a -q and/or --quiet option to hush this output 2014-08-06T20:55:44Z drmeister: I can remove anything - I just need to do it. 2014-08-06T20:56:48Z Fare: there's a test that starts lisp, does nothing and quits, saves the output, then stars lisp, loads asdf and quits, compare the two outputs. 2014-08-06T20:57:23Z drmeister: Currently it does print the time it takes to load the dynamically loaded kernel. Interestingly a minimal lisp with everything but CLOS takes 0.25 seconds to load. A full system with CLOS just took 6.45 seconds to load. 2014-08-06T20:57:51Z Fare: it sometimes fails on XCL because XCL prints something different if the clock ticked in the middle of autoloading some dependency 2014-08-06T20:58:16Z Fare: please have --quiet remove those times, or the test will fail 2014-08-06T20:58:17Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-08-06T20:58:26Z drmeister: 6.45 seconds on Linux and 4.6 seconds on OS X. 2014-08-06T20:58:30Z Fare: and include --quiet in the arguments above. 2014-08-06T20:58:52Z ggole quit 2014-08-06T20:59:02Z drmeister: Ok, that's good stuff to shoot for. 2014-08-06T20:59:05Z resttime joined #lisp 2014-08-06T20:59:23Z kristof joined #lisp 2014-08-06T20:59:46Z didi joined #lisp 2014-08-06T20:59:47Z dim: are you compiling CLOS at kernel load time? 2014-08-06T20:59:49Z ahungry_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-06T20:59:59Z dim: or is it just the size of the binary that has a huge impact? 2014-08-06T21:01:26Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-08-06T21:01:29Z Fare: XCL is a proof of concept, not a real system, but oh well, it stressed the portability of the tool chain. 2014-08-06T21:01:30Z drmeister: dim: No, I'm not compiling anything - that's the time it takes to evaluate the top-level forms of the following ECL source files: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/5589860cd1e26c963347 2014-08-06T21:02:13Z dim: XCL is from the ABCL author IIRC, is XCL still developped? what would be its selling point against XBCL and CCL? (and clasp) 2014-08-06T21:02:17Z Fare: wow 2014-08-06T21:02:19Z Sauvin joined #lisp 2014-08-06T21:02:36Z Fare: no, XCL hasn't been developed in years. 2014-08-06T21:02:46Z Fare: no selling point whatsoever 2014-08-06T21:03:12Z drmeister: Fare: wow - on the amount of time it takes? Yeah, I have to do some profiling to figure out what's up with that. 2014-08-06T21:05:37Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-06T21:06:05Z Ayey_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-06T21:07:01Z Fare: drmeister, yes, that's still a whole lot. And if it can't be drastically reduced, it's a good argument for image dumping. 2014-08-06T21:07:56Z Zeedox_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-06T21:09:07Z Fare: but hey, get it working first :-) 2014-08-06T21:09:17Z Fare: congratulations for your tenacity. How many months was it? 2014-08-06T21:09:20Z jasom: if it supports DLLs like ecl, then he could just build a dll out of it 2014-08-06T21:11:56Z sohail quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-06T21:13:40Z drmeister: How many months was what? The whole system? 2 or 3 years now I think. 2014-08-06T21:14:11Z kristof: drmeister: intellectual property guys get back to you yet? 2014-08-06T21:15:24Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-08-06T21:15:46Z drmeister: They told me yesterday they were submitting it to consul and the head of the IP department is on vacation - a couple of days they say. 2014-08-06T21:15:53Z kristof: Exciting! 2014-08-06T21:16:05Z drmeister: Exhausting! :-) 2014-08-06T21:18:09Z banjara joined #lisp 2014-08-06T21:20:14Z ARM9 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-06T21:26:22Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-06T21:28:16Z brown` joined #lisp 2014-08-06T21:28:59Z marsbot is now known as marsam 2014-08-06T21:29:02Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T21:33:10Z sohail joined #lisp 2014-08-06T21:33:10Z sohail quit (Changing host) 2014-08-06T21:33:10Z sohail joined #lisp 2014-08-06T21:34:51Z eudoxia quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-06T21:38:22Z marsam is now known as marsbot 2014-08-06T21:39:09Z blahzik joined #lisp 2014-08-06T21:43:52Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-06T21:45:22Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-08-06T21:45:31Z hrs joined #lisp 2014-08-06T21:47:05Z Shinmera quit (Quit: ZzzZ) 2014-08-06T21:54:43Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-06T21:58:38Z kristof quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-08-06T21:59:00Z kristof joined #lisp 2014-08-06T22:01:02Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-08-06T22:01:02Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-06T22:02:15Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-08-06T22:06:05Z jasom quit (Quit: Changing server) 2014-08-06T22:07:35Z jasom joined #lisp 2014-08-06T22:11:54Z Neptu joined #lisp 2014-08-06T22:12:38Z bcoburn` joined #lisp 2014-08-06T22:12:44Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-06T22:15:34Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-06T22:15:37Z varjag joined #lisp 2014-08-06T22:17:24Z marsbot is now known as marsam 2014-08-06T22:19:03Z dmiles_afk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-06T22:19:41Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2014-08-06T22:25:48Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-08-06T22:27:58Z hrs quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-08-06T22:30:37Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 2014-08-06T22:31:26Z moore33 joined #lisp 2014-08-06T22:32:42Z moore33 quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-06T22:34:55Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-08-06T22:39:15Z ferada quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T22:40:29Z marsam is now known as marsbot 2014-08-06T22:40:33Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-06T22:47:58Z pjb quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-08-06T22:50:14Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-06T22:51:44Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-06T22:56:30Z pjb joined #lisp 2014-08-06T22:56:54Z pjb is now known as Guest11236 2014-08-06T22:58:20Z Neptu quit (Quit: Bye!!) 2014-08-06T22:59:22Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-06T23:00:19Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T23:01:07Z Sgeo joined #lisp 2014-08-06T23:10:37Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-06T23:10:54Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-06T23:11:09Z logand`` joined #lisp 2014-08-06T23:13:52Z Guthur``` joined #lisp 2014-08-06T23:14:47Z logand` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-06T23:15:19Z Guthur`` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-06T23:15:27Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-08-06T23:15:52Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2014-08-06T23:19:02Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-06T23:20:00Z MoALTz__ joined #lisp 2014-08-06T23:20:32Z AeroNotix: Is anyone running cl-webkit on archlinux? I had to modify library paths to get it to compile but now it's complaining that certain functions don't exist 2014-08-06T23:20:52Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T23:21:14Z blahzik quit (Quit: blahzik) 2014-08-06T23:23:58Z Neptu joined #lisp 2014-08-06T23:24:08Z MoALTz_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-06T23:25:11Z Neptu quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-06T23:25:26Z AeroNotix: hmm, I seem to have it working. But the demo app never shows a window 2014-08-06T23:26:16Z Neptu joined #lisp 2014-08-06T23:29:59Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2014-08-06T23:35:12Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-06T23:36:11Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-06T23:40:38Z Longlius joined #lisp 2014-08-06T23:41:50Z jleija joined #lisp 2014-08-06T23:46:35Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-06T23:50:21Z estebian left #lisp 2014-08-06T23:51:10Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-06T23:55:14Z phax joined #lisp 2014-08-06T23:55:30Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-08-07T00:03:15Z zwer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-08-07T00:04:36Z jasom: So, I used foil to generate GTK# bindings 2014-08-07T00:04:59Z jasom: It actually works really well so far. 2014-08-07T00:05:03Z PuffTheMagic joined #lisp 2014-08-07T00:05:29Z jasom: way less crashy than the FFI gtk bindings 2014-08-07T00:06:33Z blahzik joined #lisp 2014-08-07T00:10:27Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-08-07T00:14:34Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-07T00:19:37Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2014-08-07T00:20:44Z Xach: the ghost of rich hickey's cl 2014-08-07T00:22:44Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-07T00:28:13Z Tristam quit (Excess Flood) 2014-08-07T00:28:56Z Tristam joined #lisp 2014-08-07T00:29:31Z zz_karupa is now known as karupa 2014-08-07T00:30:42Z brown` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-07T00:31:03Z brown` joined #lisp 2014-08-07T00:32:20Z moore33 joined #lisp 2014-08-07T00:32:24Z zacts joined #lisp 2014-08-07T00:33:35Z moore33 quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-07T00:34:03Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-08-07T00:34:43Z davazp joined #lisp 2014-08-07T00:34:47Z Guest11236 left #lisp 2014-08-07T00:35:03Z pjb joined #lisp 2014-08-07T00:35:49Z sohail quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-08-07T00:37:55Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-08-07T00:42:45Z JuniorRoy joined #lisp 2014-08-07T00:42:47Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-07T00:43:22Z blahzik quit (Quit: blahzik) 2014-08-07T00:46:04Z blahzik joined #lisp 2014-08-07T00:46:22Z lduros` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-07T00:49:34Z umontabea quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-08-07T00:52:58Z shridhar quit (Quit: shridhar) 2014-08-07T00:56:02Z chu joined #lisp 2014-08-07T00:58:10Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2014-08-07T00:59:10Z leo2007 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-08-07T01:03:06Z nydel joined #lisp 2014-08-07T01:04:31Z phax joined #lisp 2014-08-07T01:07:04Z varjag quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-08-07T01:07:27Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-08-07T01:07:52Z hugod quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-07T01:11:40Z blahzik quit (Quit: blahzik) 2014-08-07T01:13:57Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2014-08-07T01:16:09Z blahzik joined #lisp 2014-08-07T01:19:00Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-07T01:19:12Z JuniorRoy quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-07T01:19:27Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-07T01:22:20Z zickzackv joined #lisp 2014-08-07T01:22:38Z urandom_1 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-08-07T01:24:08Z JuniorRoy joined #lisp 2014-08-07T01:24:35Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-08-07T01:26:58Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-08-07T01:27:16Z ltbarcly quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-07T01:31:00Z blahzik quit (Quit: blahzik) 2014-08-07T01:33:32Z kristof: http://i.imgur.com/dO4VW.jpg 2014-08-07T01:34:52Z kristof: Is there anything like that for common lisp? Navigating the spec interactively through nodes from your ide 2014-08-07T01:35:24Z Guthur joined #lisp 2014-08-07T01:38:01Z kristof: Oh, uh, there *was* the texinfo version of the spec I was playing with, but... hrm. 2014-08-07T01:38:27Z Jameser` joined #lisp 2014-08-07T01:39:46Z Jameser quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-08-07T01:43:12Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-08-07T01:43:35Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2014-08-07T01:43:35Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-08-07T01:46:24Z manuel___ joined #lisp 2014-08-07T01:46:53Z manuel___ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-07T01:47:59Z manuel_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-07T01:49:19Z Fare joined #lisp 2014-08-07T01:50:36Z Adlai` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-07T01:50:59Z Adlai` joined #lisp 2014-08-07T01:56:28Z harish_ joined #lisp 2014-08-07T01:57:13Z dvdtja1970 joined #lisp 2014-08-07T01:58:25Z Guthur: is there any implementation of STM for CL? 2014-08-07T01:58:56Z H4ns: cl-stm and stmx 2014-08-07T01:59:18Z Guthur: H4ns: cheers, will check them out 2014-08-07T01:59:28Z kristof: Guthur: I would use STMX over cl-stm 2014-08-07T01:59:46Z Guthur: kristof: ok, I'll check it out first 2014-08-07T02:02:38Z EmacsKid joined #lisp 2014-08-07T02:04:05Z blahzik joined #lisp 2014-08-07T02:07:00Z pidof quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-08-07T02:08:33Z banjara quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-07T02:08:53Z banjara joined #lisp 2014-08-07T02:15:21Z hugod|away joined #lisp 2014-08-07T02:15:32Z hugod|away is now known as hugod 2014-08-07T02:16:02Z hugod is now known as Guest31764 2014-08-07T02:19:17Z zRecursive: Guthur: For STM, i suggest you look at Clojure :) 2014-08-07T02:22:11Z Guthur: zRecursive: but how would that help when I am implementing by software in CL 2014-08-07T02:22:20Z Guthur: s/by/my 2014-08-07T02:22:55Z zRecursive: then see STMX first, hope it can meet your needs 2014-08-07T02:24:08Z Guthur: from my understanding there is nothing that fundamentally links STM to Clojure 2014-08-07T02:24:27Z Guthur: it's just that Clojure is the most well known implementation of it 2014-08-07T02:24:42Z H4ns: except that all of clojures data structures support stm 2014-08-07T02:25:44Z zRecursive Do people really need STM ? 2014-08-07T02:25:46Z H4ns: whereas in common lisp, stm is usually restricted to clos instances. 2014-08-07T02:26:03Z Guthur: which is not necessarily a great selling point, I want it for a particular problem 2014-08-07T02:26:07Z Guthur: not for every problem 2014-08-07T02:26:13Z H4ns: zRecursive: it is a nice implementation technique, not a "need" i'd say 2014-08-07T02:27:12Z zRecursive: ? 2014-08-07T02:27:20Z Guthur: zRecursive: one could do everything with locks 2014-08-07T02:27:35Z Guthur: and if rollback is require, hack something together 2014-08-07T02:28:19Z Guthur: neither of those points seem any more appealling 2014-08-07T02:30:32Z kristof: That Clojure is the most well known implementation of STM is... odd. 2014-08-07T02:31:02Z kristof: Idiomatic clojure code doesn't really use transactions that often, anyway. You're more likely to just use an atom, a go-block, or an agent. 2014-08-07T02:32:14Z Rptx joined #lisp 2014-08-07T02:32:24Z Guthur: kristof: possibly but I'd imagine if you mention STM Clojure is quite commonly brought up 2014-08-07T02:32:34Z kristof: And when you ARE talking about STM, Haskell's had it for much longer. Rich Hickey based his implementation on Simon Peyton Jones' paper. And .NET has had a very, very good implementation for longer than Clojure has been around. 2014-08-07T02:33:06Z blahzik quit (Quit: blahzik) 2014-08-07T02:33:12Z moore33 joined #lisp 2014-08-07T02:33:23Z kristof: I have a technical post saved somewhere from around '12 about the grittier details of writing an STM implementation from the developers of the .NET implementation. 2014-08-07T02:34:10Z kristof: Guthur: It probably is but it's bizarre to me why that is, except when you consider that clojure proponents are very... vocal. 2014-08-07T02:34:31Z H4ns: kristof: so? 2014-08-07T02:34:53Z moore33 quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-07T02:40:10Z davazp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-07T02:40:16Z Guthur: well the key point is your last point, Clojure is a more extrovert community imo 2014-08-07T02:40:24Z kristof: H4ns: I was just commenting on what Guthur said. 2014-08-07T02:40:47Z Guthur: so it's hardly surprising that it's what people think of 2014-08-07T02:41:21Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-08-07T02:43:12Z nipra quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-07T02:43:37Z Guthur: and it's never really about who has it first, lambda has been around for along time (decades), yet people are still showing excitement that likes of C++ and Java are getting support for them 2014-08-07T02:44:15Z Guthur: my point being it's less about being first and more about market share 2014-08-07T02:44:47Z Zhivago: I would generalize it to 'network effects'. 2014-08-07T02:45:42Z Guthur: Zhivago: yes, a far more apt description 2014-08-07T02:46:49Z atomixx joined #lisp 2014-08-07T02:48:43Z Zhivago: The other issue with Clojure is that it doesn't have a moribund standard. :) 2014-08-07T02:49:46Z Guthur: Zhivago: when compared to CL or Haskell? 2014-08-07T02:51:01Z Zhivago: Well, CL has a moribund standard. I didn't think that Haskell does. 2014-08-07T02:51:27Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-07T02:51:42Z Guthur: yeah i kind of assume it was CL 2014-08-07T02:51:43Z Bike: haskell has a standard and only one implementation that matters, i guess you could consider the standard moribund in a different way 2014-08-07T02:51:45Z zRecursive: JVM is its stable standard, Clojure is just a impl. of JVM ? 2014-08-07T02:51:56Z Bike: no, that's stupid 2014-08-07T02:52:33Z zRecursive: Bike: no what ? 2014-08-07T02:52:48Z Bike: clojure is not a jvm implementation, what the hell are you talking about 2014-08-07T02:52:59Z Bike: it runs on the jvm, that doesn't mean it implements the jvm 2014-08-07T02:53:33Z dvdtja1970 quit 2014-08-07T02:53:34Z zRecursive: it obeys the spec of JVM ? 2014-08-07T02:53:58Z Bike: As a target! 2014-08-07T02:54:08Z zRecursive: yeah 2014-08-07T02:54:25Z Bike: That says nothing at all about the semantics of Clojure itself. 2014-08-07T02:55:06Z no0y quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-08-07T02:55:26Z zRecursive: then Clojure needs its own standard ? 2014-08-07T02:56:47Z zRecursive: as CL standard 2014-08-07T02:57:31Z Zhivago: Well, 'need' is an interesting term. 2014-08-07T02:57:55Z Zhivago: A standard would allow multiple implementations to be developed, and allow ensuring that programs should be correct. 2014-08-07T02:59:03Z zRecursive: so JVM has a stanard 2014-08-07T02:59:30Z zRecursive: s/has/is 2014-08-07T03:02:08Z JuniorRoy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-08-07T03:05:34Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-08-07T03:07:41Z JuniorRoy joined #lisp 2014-08-07T03:14:40Z EmacsKid quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-08-07T03:18:30Z kristof joined #lisp 2014-08-07T03:26:02Z didi quit (Quit: you can't /fire me, I /quit) 2014-08-07T03:28:36Z keen_____ joined #lisp 2014-08-07T03:32:23Z keen____ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-08-07T03:39:47Z banjara quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-08-07T03:42:41Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-08-07T03:51:53Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-08-07T03:55:50Z atomixx quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-08-07T04:04:28Z Fare: Clojure has no standard 2014-08-07T04:04:54Z Fare: Clojure has a lot of good things, but nothing like a standard (not that a standard is necessarily a good thing) 2014-08-07T04:05:06Z didi joined #lisp 2014-08-07T04:07:35Z kristof: Design-by-committee is good and holy. 2014-08-07T04:09:31Z didi quit (Client Quit) 2014-08-07T04:11:22Z work_op quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-08-07T04:13:38Z Zhivago: Keeps committee members off the streets and from frightening the good people. 2014-08-07T04:14:26Z nightfly: I much prefer having a spec over having a reference implementation 2014-08-07T04:14:35Z kristof: *cough* python 2014-08-07T04:14:53Z Zhivago: It's a trade between language evolution and program reliability. 2014-08-07T04:15:25Z jasom: Lisp spent about 20 years with just a reference implementation 2014-08-07T04:17:12Z plastic-houses joined #lisp 2014-08-07T04:19:47Z plastic-houses: why is whats popular so terrible in IT industry 2014-08-07T04:19:52Z Zhivago: Many incompatible reference implementations. 2014-08-07T04:20:05Z Zhivago: And that was its period of creativity and evolution. 2014-08-07T04:20:36Z Zhivago: plastic-houses: Your question is incorrect. 2014-08-07T04:20:58Z Zhivago: plastic-houses: I suggest it's probably an issue of the metrics you are using. 2014-08-07T04:21:14Z plastic-houses: interesting 2014-08-07T04:21:40Z plastic-houses: I have learned how important it is to question ones own methodology in being properly scientific about things. 2014-08-07T04:23:20Z Zhivago: Almost as important as learning how to use apostrophes. 2014-08-07T04:25:38Z Fare: Frankly, standards suck. Not worth the price. 2014-08-07T04:26:27Z plastic-houses: I just saw a html resume I hand coded opens as a pile of mush on windows. 2014-08-07T04:26:49Z plastic-houses: somehoe newlines and tabes were not respeced even though I saved the file as .html and it opened flawlessly in firefox 2014-08-07T04:27:02Z Zhivago: Fortunately html doesn't care about newlines and tabs. 2014-08-07T04:27:03Z kpreid_ joined #lisp 2014-08-07T04:27:29Z nand1` joined #lisp 2014-08-07T04:27:42Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-08-07T04:27:43Z gendl_ joined #lisp 2014-08-07T04:27:51Z plastic-houses: I wonder why on freebsd it was fine, but when I opened it in fireofx on win7 its a blob. 2014-08-07T04:27:53Z plastic-houses: hmm 2014-08-07T04:27:59Z aksatac_ joined #lisp 2014-08-07T04:28:08Z Zhivago: It's probably a communist conspiracy. 2014-08-07T04:28:11Z plastic-houses: I used
 and ended with 
so it should basically hold its shape. 2014-08-07T04:28:12Z nydel quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-08-07T04:28:25Z endou___ joined #lisp 2014-08-07T04:28:29Z Amaan_ joined #lisp 2014-08-07T04:28:34Z plastic-houses: vast right wing conspiracy to keep the workers down and women without birth control 2014-08-07T04:29:05Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-08-07T04:29:11Z lacedaemon joined #lisp 2014-08-07T04:29:11Z nowhere_man_ joined #lisp 2014-08-07T04:29:19Z Blkt_ joined #lisp 2014-08-07T04:29:26Z sjl- joined #lisp 2014-08-07T04:29:32Z easye` joined #lisp 2014-08-07T04:29:34Z Zhivago: Using
 in a html resume is probably a good indication of 'no hire'.
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2014-08-07T04:33:19Z brucem: Fare: do you view "standard" and "specification" as being the same or not?
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2014-08-07T04:44:22Z plastic-houses: why do you say that/
2014-08-07T04:44:23Z plastic-houses: ?
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2014-08-07T04:46:02Z plastic-houses: the 
 lets the format I include staty static they way I want the layout
2014-08-07T04:46:03Z plastic-houses: ;)
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2014-08-07T04:47:36Z Zhivago: So ... why html?
2014-08-07T04:48:02Z Zhivago: Inappropriately using tools in completely stupid fashions is a good reason not to hire someone.
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2014-08-07T04:55:49Z plastic-houses: Zhivago: http://www.htmlcodetutorial.com/linepar/_PRE.html
2014-08-07T04:55:49Z plastic-houses: bam!!
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2014-08-07T04:59:13Z Zhivago: The nice thing about the internet is the number of idiots who write things on it.
2014-08-07T04:59:46Z plastic-houses: are you saying pre is a deprecated tag?
2014-08-07T04:59:55Z Zhivago: I know -- I'd like tables where the columns don't line up -- hurrah.
2014-08-07T05:00:12Z pjb: I wonder if it would be possible to write an AI to elaborate something more intelligent from all the idiotic things found on the Internet, or at least, just filter them out?
2014-08-07T05:00:37Z phadthai: semantic-web 3.0? :)
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2014-08-07T05:05:43Z plastic-houses: I wonder if lisp on bsd can interoperate with laser scanners for fedex
2014-08-07T05:06:01Z plastic-houses: and support a dress rental app
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2014-08-07T05:06:54Z pjb: people have strange wonders.
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2014-08-07T05:08:49Z Zhivago: You can just rent you dresses the old fashioned way.
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2014-08-07T05:11:12Z phadthai: plastic-houses: maybe look for (or write) Sane bindings or a Sane-compatible Lisp client
2014-08-07T05:11:40Z phadthai: http://cliki.net/cl-sane (no idea if that works)
2014-08-07T05:13:00Z phadthai: and I'm not sure if sane supports laser scanners
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2014-08-07T05:17:08Z pjb: Even if it doesn't, how does that prevent you to write in CL, the code needed to talk to laser scanners?
2014-08-07T05:19:27Z plastic-houses: hm
2014-08-07T05:19:27Z plastic-houses: I dunno
2014-08-07T05:19:28Z plastic-houses: some startup asked me hows it done I didnt know
2014-08-07T05:19:38Z plastic-houses: now Im curious if this iz a biz opp
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2014-08-07T05:21:07Z pjb: Well, cl-sane is a FFI to SANE, so what you can do with SANE in any language, you can do with cl-sane in CL.
2014-08-07T05:21:30Z pjb: http://www.sane-project.org/sane-supported-devices.html
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2014-08-07T09:52:08Z AeroNotix: So I want to use this project; https://github.com/joachifm/cl-webkit
2014-08-07T09:52:20Z AeroNotix: I got it compiled after changing some library paths for archlinux.
2014-08-07T09:52:30Z AeroNotix: But the example demo, just doesn't.. do anything
2014-08-07T09:52:42Z AeroNotix: does any one use this? My project is to make something like luakit but with CL
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2014-08-07T10:03:44Z AeroNotix: in fact, any gtk related code doesn't create windows or anything
2014-08-07T10:03:50Z AeroNotix: just executes and returns NIL
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2014-08-07T10:33:47Z crowed: sighs ...
2014-08-07T10:34:49Z Zhivago: Try balancing an egg on your head, and chase away the blues.
2014-08-07T10:35:00Z crowed: huh?
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2014-08-07T11:26:34Z Cymew: AeroNotix: that project is not in quicklisp, which might be some indication that it might be problematic somehow.
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2014-08-07T11:47:41Z Xach: I think it is a very slight "might"
2014-08-07T11:48:46Z Xach: Not being in quicklisp can mean a lot of things, like: nobody asked for it, nobody knows about it (no matter how good/bad it is), it doesn't build on sbcl (even though it works elsewhere), it isn't ready yet, it is just plain broken, and more
2014-08-07T11:49:31Z Xach: being in quicklisp is also no great indicator of quality: it just means someone asked for it, and it built on sbcl when i tried it. i don't do runtime testing or anything (yet)
2014-08-07T11:49:41Z Guthur: Xach: out of interest is there any prominent library that you would like to see in QL but isn't for some reason or another
2014-08-07T11:50:11Z Xach: Guthur: I wish i could get clsql-oracle building, and cl-gtk3-cffi (or whatever it's called).
2014-08-07T11:50:30Z Xach: I can't test build them because I have had no luck getting oracle and gtk3 libraries set up on my build box. My own problem but vexing.
2014-08-07T11:50:40Z Xach: I don't think they are prominent but they are persistent shames
2014-08-07T11:50:42Z Guthur: ah, i have a vague memory of struggling to get clsql-oracle working
2014-08-07T11:50:59Z Guthur: or rather was it to do with licensed software dependency
2014-08-07T11:51:23Z Xach: Hmm...I don't know about others. I think there's a feedback loop of "if it's prominent it's in quicklisp" that is not always accurate
2014-08-07T11:51:41Z Xach: Some of the things people make in CL are sort of stand-alone applications that require complicated build steps that don't really fit with quicklisp
2014-08-07T11:53:04Z Xach: They often bundle their own third-party library ecosystem
2014-08-07T11:54:42Z Guthur: are any third  party libs acceptable, e.g. if part of a linux package management system
2014-08-07T11:58:12Z Xach: Guthur: what do you mean by that?
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2014-08-07T12:02:13Z AeroNotix: Xach: did you ever look at something like OCaml's "weather service" ?
2014-08-07T12:02:24Z AeroNotix: where it periodically builds libraries and runs tests on them
2014-08-07T12:02:45Z Xach: AeroNotix: There's a project called cl-test-grid that does that for quicklisp
2014-08-07T12:02:49Z Xach: It is cool
2014-08-07T12:02:49Z AeroNotix: also, OCaml does constraint solving on library dependencies, since they allow pinning dependencies to specific versions
2014-08-07T12:02:54Z AeroNotix: Xach: oh awesome!
2014-08-07T12:03:07Z Xach: It is good at detecting regressions that I don't catch, because I test only on sbcl
2014-08-07T12:03:33Z AeroNotix: Cymew: well, cl-gtk2 is in QL but I can't display windows
2014-08-07T12:03:45Z AeroNotix: the simplest "hello world" type applications just don't spawn windows.
2014-08-07T12:05:54Z Guthur: Xach: for instance if I was to release a binding for the Open Dynamics Engine, which is available in via aptitude, would it get accepted into QL, assuming it builds on SBCL
2014-08-07T12:06:12Z ehu: AeroNotix: it also tells us which libraries failing to build, block most other libraries from being used.
2014-08-07T12:06:19Z ehu: (ie the dependency graph)
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2014-08-07T12:10:08Z AeroNotix: https://gist.github.com/AeroNotix/545e188ff33dba301a34 can someone run this and tell me what it does on their system?
2014-08-07T12:10:12Z AeroNotix: on mine it just returns NIL
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2014-08-07T12:22:28Z AeroNotix: :(
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2014-08-07T12:23:23Z crowed: works for me
2014-08-07T12:23:30Z Xach: Guthur: sure. plenty of libraries in ql are like that.
2014-08-07T12:23:57Z Xach: Guthur: some libraries even rely on stuff that is not easily available via packages, too.
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2014-08-07T12:24:27Z Guthur: cool, that as my initial wonder
2014-08-07T12:25:25Z Guthur: are you aware of |3b|'s classimp?
2014-08-07T12:26:03Z Guthur: it does not appear to be in QL, and is a library of reasonable quality, the assimp dependency should be readily available
2014-08-07T12:26:58Z Guthur: i had not intended segway into that, just thought it worth raising
2014-08-07T12:27:00Z Xach: I remember trying it a few years ago but don't remember the issue
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2014-08-07T12:28:10Z Guthur: I'll raise an issue for it, so you can check it out the next time you build a dist
2014-08-07T12:29:04Z AeroNotix: So, if the gtk2 snippet worked for crowed. I wonder why it doesn't work for me
2014-08-07T12:29:31Z Xach: Guthur: please do
2014-08-07T12:29:50Z Guthur: Xach: what is you preferred lib request medium, the here https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-client/issues
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2014-08-07T12:32:24Z Xach: yes
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2014-08-07T12:38:38Z Guthur: raised
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2014-08-07T12:40:11Z Xach: thanks
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2014-08-07T13:20:13Z Cymew: Not being in ql is indeed a very slight "might", yes.
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2014-08-07T13:21:17Z Cymew: AeroNotix: Personally I have not tried to do any graphics in CL since I failed to do anything in CLIM, and gtk I use as little as possible...
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2014-08-07T13:34:29Z AeroNotix: Hmm
2014-08-07T13:34:38Z AeroNotix: Really I just want to use cl-webkit
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2014-08-07T14:26:29Z trebor_dki: hello. asdf (slime's ,load-system) does not find local .asd files anymore (after the admin upgraded my system) - i am reading the asdf manual to fix this (http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Configuring-ASDF-to-find-your-systems.html#Configuring-ASDF-to-find-your-systems), but if anyone could give me a hint, i would be very happy (sbcl 1.1.14.debian, slime 2013-06-26). thanks.
2014-08-07T14:27:22Z Xach: trebor_dki: where are the local .asd files located?
2014-08-07T14:28:41Z trebor_dki: Xach: in the source-tree (e.g. ~/Sourcen/workdir/test/test.asd besides the test.lisp and all other needed .lisp files)
2014-08-07T14:29:14Z trebor_dki: (hope that is what you were asking for - not sure)
2014-08-07T14:29:27Z Xach: trebor_dki: you can add that directory to the registry
2014-08-07T14:29:53Z Xach: the easiest way is (push "/path/to/whatever/" asdf:*central-registry*) but there are many other ways
2014-08-07T14:30:09Z Xach: I don't know why it stopped working, sorry.
2014-08-07T14:33:07Z |3b|: possibly if you previously had a CL aware sysadmin there was asdf config in /etc/ that got removed in the upgrade?
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2014-08-07T14:33:20Z trebor_dki: Xach: thanks for your quick answer.
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2014-08-07T14:36:08Z trebor_dki: i just checked my private laptop (works with slime 2012-05-25 sbcl1.0.57.0.debian) local .asd files are used (which is helpful, if i use temp-copies/checkouts). trying to find asdf::version ...
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2014-08-07T14:42:49Z trebor_dki: this version works with local .asd files: *asdf-version* 2.21 + sbcl 1.0.57.0.debian --- this does NOT:  *a-v* 3.0.3 + sbcl 1.1.14.debian. (hints apreciated, thanks)
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2014-08-07T14:44:38Z Xach: you just have to add more stuff to make it work
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2014-08-07T14:47:43Z Cymew: Are you supposed to use asdf:*central-registry* anymore? Isn't that some asdf v2 thing we have left behind for new Fare magic?
2014-08-07T14:48:37Z p_l: Cymew: it's afaik still supported
2014-08-07T14:48:51Z p_l: just not recommended or only
2014-08-07T14:48:54Z Cymew: ok, that's good
2014-08-07T14:48:57Z Xach: Cymew: Nobody can stop you. It's still the easiest way to do quick things.
2014-08-07T14:49:11Z Xach: The configuration DSL is complicated and affected by many factors.
2014-08-07T14:49:49Z Cymew: I read that huge document Fare wrote about asdf v3 and felt more than a little bit dizzy afterward.
2014-08-07T14:50:04Z eudoxia: jeez guys
2014-08-07T14:50:07Z eudoxia: just use the source-registry
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2014-08-07T14:50:22Z Cymew: Maybe it mentioned *central-registry* in the beginning and I had flushed that out of the cache when reaching the end...
2014-08-07T14:50:38Z eudoxia: https://github.com/eudoxia0/dotfiles/blob/master/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf there you go every problem solved forever
2014-08-07T14:50:46Z Fade: I permanently add the root of my personal lisp sources by putting the form (:tree "/home/fade/SourceCode/lisp/") in the file ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/source.conf
2014-08-07T14:51:07Z Cymew: Nice
2014-08-07T14:51:15Z Xach: I find that syntax and config file location very difficult to remember and I have to look it up every time.
2014-08-07T14:51:20Z Fade: which causes asdf to find any asd system under ~/SourceCode/lisp
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2014-08-07T14:51:44Z Fade: which saves a lot of fiddling with the central registry, for me.
2014-08-07T14:52:31Z Fade: Xach: aye. it's a little baroque.
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2014-08-07T14:54:13Z Cymew: A bit
2014-08-07T14:55:02Z trebor_dki: hm. still reading. Fade: how do you force asdf to use ~/SourceCode/lisp/temp111/temp.asd instead of ~/SourceCode/lisp/main/test.asd (in case of a temp-checkout/copy)?
2014-08-07T14:55:25Z Xach: trebor_dki: they have different names?
2014-08-07T14:55:29Z Xach: did you mean temp111/test.asd?
2014-08-07T14:55:57Z trebor_dki: Xach: yes
2014-08-07T14:56:11Z trebor_dki: Xach: temp111/test.asd and main/test.asd
2014-08-07T14:56:37Z Fade: trebor_dki: asdf will use the first system it finds that matches
2014-08-07T14:56:58Z Fade: so you can play directory games by prepending xxx's or whatever.
2014-08-07T14:57:16Z Fade: alternately, I just move unwanted systems out of that directory.
2014-08-07T14:57:21Z Xach: Fade: in alphabetical order?
2014-08-07T14:57:33Z Fade: ~/SourceCode/holding
2014-08-07T14:57:38Z Fade: Xach: so it seems
2014-08-07T14:58:20Z trebor_dki: hm. just using the local directory first (the one slime was started in) was very handy.
2014-08-07T14:58:59Z Fade: any system I put in my asdf :tree directory gets higher precedence than systems in quicklisp or the local-projects dir in quicklisp.
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2014-08-07T15:00:03Z Xach: that's good
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2014-08-07T15:00:12Z Fade: *nod*
2014-08-07T15:00:30Z Fade: it all works very nicely, leaving me with warm feelings. :)
2014-08-07T15:00:48Z Xach: quicklisp's local-projects precedence works a little differently
2014-08-07T15:00:49Z trebor_dki: Fade: so for every temp-checkout/copy you need to change asdf :tree?
2014-08-07T15:01:12Z Xach: it sorts by path length, and then alphabetically. longer paths are found after shorter ones.
2014-08-07T15:01:12Z Fade: well, I guess I could, but I just check projects into my SourceCode/lisp directory
2014-08-07T15:01:24Z Fade: Xach: ahh. I didn't know that detail.
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2014-08-07T15:01:44Z Xach: it's not documented. it's intended to circumvent things that bundle third-party stuff in subdirectories
2014-08-07T15:02:01Z Xach: or source control metadata directories (like svn?)
2014-08-07T15:02:19Z Fade: *nod*
2014-08-07T15:03:05Z Xach: i really want to write a manual and document all these little but important things
2014-08-07T15:03:35Z Fade: i really want you to, too. :)
2014-08-07T15:03:37Z trebor_dki: hm. sorting by path length and alphabetically is exactly the opposite behaviour that i need.
2014-08-07T15:04:11Z trebor_dki: (or if ./ works ;)
2014-08-07T15:04:45Z Xach: trebor_dki: yeah, i can see it fails for your example
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2014-08-07T15:08:46Z trebor_dki found a bug-report about :here ;)
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2014-08-07T15:09:19Z trebor_dki: i think that is what worked for me former times: https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bug/1257147
2014-08-07T15:09:23Z Cymew: Some more examples of how people work with quicklisp, asdf-v3 and such tools would be nice.
2014-08-07T15:09:34Z Fade is getting excited about ILC
2014-08-07T15:10:30Z Xach: I hope I'm recovered in time :(
2014-08-07T15:10:38Z Fade: are you sick? :/
2014-08-07T15:10:49Z Xach: Cymew: yes. unfortunately things get outdated quickly, but just trying would be good.
2014-08-07T15:11:03Z Xach: Fade: yeah, shingles. been laid up for a week. sucks.
2014-08-07T15:11:08Z Fade: buh
2014-08-07T15:11:11Z Xach: typing on irc is about the max level of focus i can apply.
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2014-08-07T15:11:24Z Fade: well, you have a week.
2014-08-07T15:11:35Z Fade: I was very much hoping to meet you. :)
2014-08-07T15:11:38Z Cymew: Xach: True, but there are stuff out there for asdf v2 so dilluting it a bit with newer stuff might be good. ;)
2014-08-07T15:11:55Z Xach: yeah. hoping to be on the upswing by then. the prospect of a five hour drive with this stuff as it is right now is daunting.
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2014-08-07T15:12:14Z Fade: Amtrak?
2014-08-07T15:12:39Z Fade: I'm taking the train from Toronto.
2014-08-07T15:12:43Z Xach: I'm going to drive.
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2014-08-07T15:12:53Z Xach: I drove to OOPSLA in 2007, not too bad. Just long.
2014-08-07T15:13:01Z Fade: *nod*
2014-08-07T15:13:12Z AeroNotix: anything in EU this year?
2014-08-07T15:13:36Z Fade: ELS happened recently.
2014-08-07T15:13:41Z pjb: There was the ELS2014 in Paris, but it's passed.
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2014-08-07T15:14:45Z Xach: I'm sad about ECLM. Maybe next year.
2014-08-07T15:15:11Z AeroNotix: ah
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2014-08-07T15:18:54Z trebor_dki: somehow i do not understand the asdf-manual (chap. 8). is *default-pathname-defaults* used under any circumstances (what was the problem filed in above bug-report)?
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2014-08-07T15:22:48Z Enfors: Would I be correct in assuming a Lisp engine typically has an internal variable inside its car/cdr construct, that tells the engine what kind of datatype the car is pointing to?
2014-08-07T15:22:48Z Xach: trebor_dki: i think it was used in asdf 2 as a default search path, but i might be misremembering.
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2014-08-07T15:22:58Z Xach: Enfors: no.
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2014-08-07T15:23:22Z Enfors: Xach: Then how does it know?
2014-08-07T15:23:26Z Xach: Enfors: typically the value is self-identifying through some means.
2014-08-07T15:23:51Z Xach: Enfors: either by some bits in the pointer to the object, or through some object header in the object, or some other mapping of object to type.
2014-08-07T15:24:01Z Xach: the cons can hold any value.
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2014-08-07T15:24:38Z Enfors: Xach: I see, very interesting. Thanks.
2014-08-07T15:24:38Z Xach: Enfors: what suggested to you that it does know?
2014-08-07T15:24:46Z FareWell: yes, asdf 1 and early asdf 2 used to include *default-pathname-defaults* in the central-registry
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2014-08-07T15:24:59Z Enfors: Xach: ... because that's how the one I'm writing does it? :-)
2014-08-07T15:25:05Z FareWell: that was bad taste and introduced weird environmental dependencies, and was discontinued
2014-08-07T15:25:09Z Xach: Oh.
2014-08-07T15:25:31Z Enfors: Xach: But I thought I should look into this before I write too much code.
2014-08-07T15:25:33Z FareWell: it's trivial to add back if you want it for whatever reason
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2014-08-07T15:26:01Z FareWell: though it's extremely bad practice — better add the current value of *d-p-d* than *d-p-d* itself.
2014-08-07T15:26:35Z Enfors: Xach: I'll consider doing it that way then. If that's how others do it, I'm sure that's better than my way.
2014-08-07T15:26:36Z Xach: Enfors: there are some good books about the implementation of lisp. I don't remember the degree to which they cover that specific issue, though.
2014-08-07T15:26:41Z FareWell: and by current value, I mean having it truenamized and made absolute
2014-08-07T15:27:19Z Enfors: Xach: Really? I'll look into that, thanks.
2014-08-07T15:27:32Z Xach: Enfors: lisp in small pieces, for example, and anatomy of lisp (quite a bit older)
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2014-08-07T15:28:04Z Enfors: Xach: Great, thanks. I'll see what I can find on the Play book store.
2014-08-07T15:28:10Z Xach: Having the symbol *DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS* in asdf:*central-registry* is how I learned that the central registry values are evaluated
2014-08-07T15:28:23Z Xach: Enfors: my guess would be nothing.
2014-08-07T15:28:33Z FareWell: Enfors: mercury is notorious for using type information in the pointer so that the pointee knows its type and can use type-dependent encoding (and e.g. integers can be full width).
2014-08-07T15:28:53Z Enfors: Xach: I'll check, hang on...
2014-08-07T15:29:02Z Enfors: FareWell: Interesting, thanks.
2014-08-07T15:29:21Z Xach: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3238871095242925%40naggum.no.html is a short article that stuck in my mind a while ago
2014-08-07T15:29:53Z FareWell: And it used to be an error to evaluate to NIL (no more) so you couldn't have conditionally present directories in the central-registry
2014-08-07T15:30:05Z trebor_dki: FareWell: you mean pushing (truename) of *d-p-d* to asdf::*c-r*?
2014-08-07T15:30:32Z FareWell: trebor_dki: you *can* do it, but it's still not recommended in production settings
2014-08-07T15:30:44Z FareWell: as in strongly disrecommended
2014-08-07T15:30:53Z Enfors: Xach: Turns out "Lisp in small pieces" is on the Play store, but it's "not available in my country..." :-/
2014-08-07T15:31:41Z FareWell: Enfors: that's what book "pirate" sites are for
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2014-08-07T15:32:25Z Xach: You can probably find it at a library, and I bet it can be purchased and shipped to wherever you are.
2014-08-07T15:32:41Z Xach: (interlibrary loan might need to be involved for a library)
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2014-08-07T15:32:53Z dim: hi
2014-08-07T15:33:02Z trebor_dki: FareWell: sorry i am confused (not being able to compile at work makes me very nervous / unable to understand asdf-manual even more) - what is the easiest way to use asdf inside a temp-dir?
2014-08-07T15:33:06Z dim: Xach: ever heard of a problem such as in https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/103 with buildapp?
2014-08-07T15:33:22Z dim: basically the binary gets back to being just an SBCL image after usage
2014-08-07T15:34:06Z dim: I remember I had problems when preparing the binary where it would behave that way, but it would always behave that way and then I fixed my buildapp usage
2014-08-07T15:34:14Z |3b|: dim: the "premature end of core file" doesn't sounds like "just an sbcl image"
2014-08-07T15:34:15Z FareWell: trebor_dki: that's too little context, but using a source-registry parameter and/or exporting CL_SOURCE_REGISTRY is the right answer
2014-08-07T15:34:17Z Enfors: Xach: It turns out it's available for Kindle. I might get it there.
2014-08-07T15:34:37Z dim: |3b|: right, sorry
2014-08-07T15:34:44Z oGMo: Enfors: i got that version, it's not bad iirc
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2014-08-07T15:34:55Z oGMo: Enfors: arguably more useful given search + hyperlinks
2014-08-07T15:35:08Z Enfors: oGMo: Cool, thanks. I'll have my employer buy it for me.
2014-08-07T15:35:14Z oGMo: Enfors: lucky :P
2014-08-07T15:35:38Z Enfors: oGMo: My employer is good that way, any programming-related books I want, I can buy. Even if it's game programming.
2014-08-07T15:36:24Z Xach: dim: for what it's worth, i often disabled ldb in my buildapped programs
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2014-08-07T15:36:40Z Xach: but i don't know what's up with that truncated core file
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2014-08-07T15:38:00Z trebor_dki: FareWell: thanks for your hint, i try to find information about source-registry parameters in asdf-manual (i meant this situation: ~/S/l/main.asd copied to ~/S/temp/temp1111/main.asd going to temp111 and therein doing (asdf::load-system "main"))
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2014-08-07T15:38:43Z FareWell: trebor_dki: if main is not in the registry, you can load it directly with load-asd, and it won't be overridden
2014-08-07T15:39:43Z FareWell: trebor_dki: if it might be in the registry, then binding the central-registry to a value with the proper directory in first position makes a lot of sense
2014-08-07T15:41:02Z FareWell: dim: btw, do you use any buildapp feature not present in cl-launch 4 ?
2014-08-07T15:41:24Z FareWell: like its multiple entry points or compressed core?
2014-08-07T15:41:46Z dim: compressed, yes
2014-08-07T15:42:27Z dim: I like buildapp, I don't know cl-launch, I want a /usr/bin/pgloader to ship, not a #! script, my understanding was that cl-launch is a #! script
2014-08-07T15:42:47Z FareWell: trebor: are you dynamically generating main.asd ? That sounds fishy
2014-08-07T15:43:08Z FareWell: dim: cl-launch can do it all. A script, a standalone executable, etc.
2014-08-07T15:43:22Z trebor_dki: FareWell: thanks, as i did not use the registry till now - i tried (asdf::load-asd "main.asd") -> T, doing (asdf::load-system "main") afterwards resulted in errors about missing dependencies. i really fear that everything i was working with now is broken (my fault, no question).
2014-08-07T15:43:28Z dim: ok. I'm already using buildapp, why should I consider switching?
2014-08-07T15:43:36Z FareWell: on 11 different implementations (soon 12, when clasp comes out)
2014-08-07T15:43:43Z FareWell: you shouldn't
2014-08-07T15:43:51Z FareWell: just wondering about the feature coverage
2014-08-07T15:44:15Z dim: oh yeah ok
2014-08-07T15:44:21Z dim: I'm only targetting SBCL and CCL at the moment
2014-08-07T15:44:24Z FareWell: unless for some reason you want to run where buildapp won't
2014-08-07T15:44:30Z dim: the other I tried could not load pgloader
2014-08-07T15:44:54Z dim: I will target windows someday I fear, but buildapp is supposed to support that (baring transient bugs)
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2014-08-07T15:45:21Z dim: Xach: fair enough, thanks. I'm flabbergasted that it works the first day but is broken the next one, in the bug report.
2014-08-07T15:45:56Z Xach: dim: i wonder if something scribbled on the file or something
2014-08-07T15:45:59Z Xach: filesystem full?
2014-08-07T15:46:00Z dim: randim idea: strip(1) will break the buildapp produced binary
2014-08-07T15:46:09Z Xach: yeah
2014-08-07T15:46:13Z dim: maybe a nightly cron on the user's system (RHEL) that would do that?
2014-08-07T15:46:28Z dim: I will ask that, that would be "fun"
2014-08-07T15:46:30Z trebor_dki: FareWell: i do not dynamically generating them, but sometimes i use temp-copies/checkouts (cvs) to try things (or to work on different problems in parallel) and it was very nice just to (asdf::load-system "main") and start working ... maybe i never really understood asdf ...
2014-08-07T15:47:20Z |3b|: dim: strip gives a different error when i tried it, it tries to load an external core
2014-08-07T15:47:41Z FareWell: just check them out under one of your registered trees, and run (asdf:initialize-source-registry) again to refresh the cache if asdf was already started.
2014-08-07T15:48:13Z Xach: trebor_dki: that is why the hip kids use git!
2014-08-07T15:48:21Z FareWell: RHEL's rpm configuration strips by default
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2014-08-07T15:48:52Z FareWell: when you create an rpm, you have to explicitly tell it not to strip binaries
2014-08-07T15:49:41Z FareWell: if the guy is trying to package your software as rpm, he has to do that
2014-08-07T15:49:42Z trebor_dki: Xach: yes, i know, but i never needed to switch - i just went on solving my problems.
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2014-08-07T15:51:39Z FareWell: note that with asdf 3.1, ~/common-lisp/ is registered by default
2014-08-07T15:52:15Z FareWell:  ~/.local/share/common-lisp/ also works with older asdf's
2014-08-07T15:52:19Z dim: |3b|: mmm, interesting, thanks
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2014-08-07T15:52:29Z dim: FareWell: my RPM spec file disables stripping
2014-08-07T15:52:40Z dim: that's how I know strip(1) breaks buildapp binaries
2014-08-07T15:52:49Z |3b| supposes it is possible there is a broken external core though
2014-08-07T15:52:56Z dim: see https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/pgloader.spec
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2014-08-07T15:53:20Z dim: %define debug_package %{nil} ;; that's the magic bits
2014-08-07T15:55:16Z dim: anyone using OpenSuse Build Service? I'm wondering if they support nigthly package builds or even on-commit package building?
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2014-08-07T15:56:38Z Fade: fe[nl]ix uses it for packaging libfixposix
2014-08-07T15:57:07Z Fade: afaict, it builds the packages when the repository changes.
2014-08-07T15:57:21Z Fade: perhaps when the tag does?
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2014-08-07T15:57:31Z Fade: anyhow, he told me he liked the service.
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2014-08-07T15:58:10Z dim: yeah, I think I'm going to use it too, so that it's easy for pgloader users to just grab unstable versions without having to compile it themselves
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2014-08-07T15:58:28Z dim: for proper releases too, that said, but this I can manage manually
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2014-08-07T16:00:38Z lacedaemon: dim: obs uses subversion and it does a rebuild on each commit
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2014-08-07T16:00:55Z Fade: ta-da!
2014-08-07T16:01:17Z fe[nl]ix: you summoned me
2014-08-07T16:01:26Z Fade: :)
2014-08-07T16:02:03Z dim: hehe
2014-08-07T16:02:16Z dim: fe[nl]ix: perfect. can it be used with git rather than svn?
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2014-08-07T16:02:45Z fe[nl]ix: no
2014-08-07T16:02:49Z dim: I now have to move, but will see about setting up an OBS build for pgloader, I think...
2014-08-07T16:02:57Z dim: so you have an svn clone of libfixposix?!
2014-08-07T16:03:16Z fe[nl]ix: it has a special client which uses svn underneath
2014-08-07T16:03:35Z fe[nl]ix: and I check-in the .spec file and the tarball
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2014-08-07T16:03:54Z dim: ok I will need to see what that means in details... do they host the SVN service at least?
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2014-08-07T16:04:10Z fe[nl]ix: yes
2014-08-07T16:04:23Z fe[nl]ix: see https://build.opensuse.org/project/show/home:sionescu
2014-08-07T16:05:28Z fe[nl]ix: obs only works with their repository
2014-08-07T16:05:35Z fe[nl]ix: think of it as a networked file-system
2014-08-07T16:05:44Z fe[nl]ix: a versioned ftp
2014-08-07T16:06:03Z fe[nl]ix: you upload some files and they get turned into distro packages
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2014-08-07T16:06:44Z trebor_dki: asdf-examples -> use quicklisp :/
2014-08-07T16:06:48Z Fade looks at the scientificlinux_6 packages and wonders if anybody at the large hadron collider is using lisp.
2014-08-07T16:07:02Z spockokt: morning lisp
2014-08-07T16:07:13Z fe[nl]ix: Fade: I don't know, but it's very easy to enable it
2014-08-07T16:08:03Z fe[nl]ix: one .spec file and I get a dozen repositories for RH/Fedora/Centos/SL/SUSE
2014-08-07T16:08:19Z Fade: plus debian/ubuntu?
2014-08-07T16:08:44Z fe[nl]ix: https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/home:sionescu/libfixposix
2014-08-07T16:09:12Z dim: I will see in more details tomorrow, maybe next week
2014-08-07T16:09:15Z fe[nl]ix: debian requires other build files
2014-08-07T16:09:18Z dim: thanks for your help already!
2014-08-07T16:09:21Z Fade: ah
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2014-08-07T16:10:53Z fe[nl]ix: the debian build system is insane
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2014-08-07T16:11:10Z Fade: indeed
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2014-08-07T16:39:09Z jasom: old build systems are *always* insane.  Just look at the checks an average ./configure script does
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2014-08-07T16:39:33Z p_l: jasom: that's partially because of people using an already horrible thing in even more horrible way
2014-08-07T16:40:19Z jasom: p_l: there was a point at which you couldn't rely on 2 different unices to be broken in the same way.  Now it's pretty much just BSD and linux though, and linux is less broken than in the 90s
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2014-08-07T16:41:06Z p_l: jasom: I know. There's also checking for fortran compiler when building a python program
2014-08-07T16:41:25Z p_l: which is what I refer to :)
2014-08-07T16:41:55Z jasom: p_l: every now and then I run into people who have actually pared down the ./configure to what matters, and I feel happy.  Then I run into a program where ./configure takes 2-3x as long as the compile stage and I cry a little
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2014-08-07T16:42:31Z p_l: jasom: afaik a lot of it is a single macro that ensures that a system is broken in GNU way
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2014-08-07T16:44:55Z enn: the build systems you see for Javascript projects these days are terrifying
2014-08-07T16:45:18Z p_l: s/build systems you see for //
2014-08-07T16:45:21Z p_l: ftfy
2014-08-07T16:45:34Z enn: that is also accurate
2014-08-07T16:47:07Z spockokt: p_l: hah
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2014-08-07T16:58:46Z enn: My old employer is moving away from CL and keeps trying to convince me that I should do all front-end work for them instead. But you get spoiled writing Lisp.
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2014-08-07T17:16:14Z Poenikatu: Could someone look at http://paste.debian.net/114222 and tell me why it refuses to do any font-locking?
2014-08-07T17:16:35Z Fade: this channel is for common lisp
2014-08-07T17:16:42Z Fade: you should ask that question in #emacs
2014-08-07T17:16:42Z Poenikatu: Sorry. Wrong channel. Just ignore what I just said
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2014-08-07T17:22:56Z Poenikatu: Fade, Crossed conversation. I have asked in #emacs. Sorry to bother you
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2014-08-07T17:34:15Z Fade: :)
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2014-08-07T17:35:19Z p_l: enn: a company a friend of mine works at recently became ex-CL company :(
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2014-08-07T17:36:18Z enn: p_l: That's too bad. It's a shame when that happens.
2014-08-07T17:36:20Z Xach: maybe you misheard and it's an XCL company
2014-08-07T17:36:28Z p_l: Xach: I wish
2014-08-07T17:36:29Z Xach: pioneering
2014-08-07T17:36:40Z p_l: novasparks is now going C++ :(
2014-08-07T17:36:52Z Xach: oh, i heard about that charlie foxtrot from marc
2014-08-07T17:37:15Z p_l: my friend was one of the lisp devs there
2014-08-07T17:37:24Z Xach: jo(h?)n?
2014-08-07T17:37:33Z p_l: no
2014-08-07T17:37:44Z p_l: mrSpec <-- this guy here ;)
2014-08-07T17:37:48Z Xach: ah
2014-08-07T17:38:06Z Xach: Sorry to hear that. It was in the works for a long time.
2014-08-07T17:38:41Z davorb_: p_l what made them decide to switch to c++ of all things?
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2014-08-07T17:38:49Z davorb_: or from CL, for that matter
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2014-08-07T17:38:55Z p_l: I recall something about acqusition?
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2014-08-07T17:39:50Z Xach: i wonder if marc will be at ILC
2014-08-07T17:40:06Z Xach: it was always fun to chat with him about stuff at various meetings and conferences
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2014-08-07T17:48:02Z AeroNotix: If one could estimate the number of CL jobs in the world, how many would that be?
2014-08-07T17:48:08Z AeroNotix: and where would they primarily be based?
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2014-08-07T17:49:34Z Xach: I think that's a pretty tough question to answer. I think there are a lot of skunk-works projects, and a lot of projects where the CL tech isn't secret but isn't publicized much either.
2014-08-07T17:49:51Z Xach: And I think there aren't a lot in general, relative to other languages, so it's a needle-in-a-haystack sort of thing.
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2014-08-07T17:50:26Z Xach: I've heard of CL companies on every populated continent...
2014-08-07T17:50:40Z p_l: sometimes the companies are very small
2014-08-07T17:50:49Z p_l: or do essentially bespoke contract work
2014-08-07T17:50:51Z Xach: or it could be a small team in a very big company
2014-08-07T17:52:17Z p_l: yes
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2014-08-07T17:52:43Z p_l: it was rather shocking for me to see "Common Lisp" and "Accenture" in non-negative context
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2014-08-07T17:53:54Z FareWell: Xach: which marc? Battyani?
2014-08-07T17:54:03Z Xach: FareWell: yes
2014-08-07T17:54:14Z FareWell: isn't he speaking this time?
2014-08-07T17:54:20Z Xach: I don't know.
2014-08-07T17:55:50Z Xach: Yes, it looks like he is. Good!
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2014-08-07T18:47:50Z pjb: Xach: Africa?
2014-08-07T18:48:40Z |3b|: pjb: with lisp companies? i think i've seen them here before
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2014-08-07T18:50:35Z pjb: I can't name any lisp company from Africa.  I know there are a few IT companies in Nigera or Senegal.  Perhaps in South Africa too.  But specifically with lisp, I don't know any.
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2014-08-07T18:52:27Z pnpuff: I think that in a big company, if you've a good position, you could choose the language you want to accomplish given task
2014-08-07T18:52:41Z pnpuff: *a given task
2014-08-07T18:52:53Z |3b| supposes it could have just been people using lisp at work and not whole "lisp companies", assuming i even remember correctly in the first place
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2014-08-07T18:54:31Z Shinmera: I'm guessing a bunch of people might be using Lisp/s in academics/research too wich you might just never hear about.
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2014-08-07T18:54:57Z p_l: Shinmera: more chance of Java
2014-08-07T18:55:41Z Shinmera: Well yes of course, Java and other languages would be more popular
2014-08-07T18:55:54Z Shinmera: I'm just saying that that's another region we might just never hear anything of even if it exists.
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2014-08-07T18:59:25Z trebor_dki: i sent a detailed posting about my problems with relative-pathnames in ASDF3 to c.l.l - i would be very happy if some of you could give me hints how to solve the problem better than my work-around. thanks and sorry for interference.
2014-08-07T19:01:06Z pnpuff: Java of course is not so good for number crunching
2014-08-07T19:01:27Z jasom: So I got gtksharp working via foil well enough to port some of the  gtksharp demos to it.  Only downside is the 26MB lisp file of auto-generated wrapper functions
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2014-08-07T19:03:13Z jasom: It took about 2 hours to figure out how things work, and then another 3-4 hours to fix some minor bugs and lispworks-isms in foil.  Way easier than trying to port from the C gtk.
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2014-08-07T19:05:14Z trebor_dki: vaporatorius: mflb ?:)
2014-08-07T19:06:34Z bhyde: Boston Lisp will be gathering this evening near MIT for some beer et. al.  If you'd like to come give me a ping and I can provide more details.
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2014-08-07T19:13:22Z enn: Another window function question ... I'm using lag(ts) over (order by ts) to get the value of the previous timestamp, and it works great. But I want to exclude the first row where there is no previous timestamp. But I can't use window functions in the where clause. Is there any better way than wrapping the whole thing in a subselect?
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2014-08-07T19:14:25Z jasom: https://docs.google.com/document/d/16Y4IsnNRCN43Mx0NZc5YXZLovrHvvLhK_h0KN8woTO4/preview?sle=true <-- Go is moving to a concurrent GC
2014-08-07T19:14:33Z enn: sorry, chanerr
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2014-08-07T19:32:24Z mrSpec: Xach: Hi! AFAIK Marc will be at ILC, he is going to give a lecture.
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2014-08-07T19:33:49Z pnpuff: A "lecture" about what?
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2014-08-07T19:35:28Z mrSpec: pnpuff: "Invited speaker: Marc Battyani (Fractal Concept) CL-FFF: A Common Lisp Full Stack Framework for Web Apps"
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2014-08-07T19:59:00Z AeroNotix: if I put something in my ~/.quicklisp/local-project dir, how come I can't (use-package :package) it without quickloading it?
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2014-08-07T20:00:07Z Xach: AeroNotix: what suggests to you that you should not have to load something before using it?
2014-08-07T20:00:36Z Xach: That is the reason, anyway: you cannot manipulate the package system of things that are not loaded already.
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2014-08-07T20:01:06Z AeroNotix: Xach: hmm, I thought for some reason you could
2014-08-07T20:01:09Z AeroNotix: ok nevermind
2014-08-07T20:01:29Z Xach: the package system is for managing units of symbol configuration, while quicklisp and asdf are about managing systems
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2014-08-07T20:02:05Z AeroNotix: ok
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2014-08-07T20:06:00Z Xach: AeroNotix: were you perhaps thinking of (require :package) instead? that can work in some situations
2014-08-07T20:06:32Z AeroNotix: Xach: dunno
2014-08-07T20:07:25Z Xach: ok
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2014-08-07T20:09:38Z uzo: pjb, there are lots of IT companies in Africa, South Africa is not perhaps, but a given, lots of IT in SA
2014-08-07T20:11:01Z jasom: Is it possible to get the printer to always print a symbol in the form package::name (even if the symbol is exported)?
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2014-08-07T20:11:42Z jdz: jasom: bind *package* during printing?
2014-08-07T20:11:50Z |3b|: (let ((*package* (find-package :keyword))) (print symbol))?
2014-08-07T20:12:07Z jasom: |3b|: then it does package:name for exported symbols (At least on sbcl)
2014-08-07T20:12:07Z |3b|: ah, :: instead of :
2014-08-07T20:12:15Z |3b| missed that detail
2014-08-07T20:12:32Z jasom: I suppose I could unexport all of the symbols first
2014-08-07T20:12:36Z |3b|: you could probably use the pretty printer to do so
2014-08-07T20:12:47Z |3b|: assuming you are using it at all
2014-08-07T20:13:39Z |3b|: (you could also try print-object, but that wouldn't be conforming)
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2014-08-07T20:23:48Z jasom: pretty-printer is probably right
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2014-08-07T20:30:27Z Xach: jasom: what prompts this interesting goal?
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2014-08-07T20:38:07Z jasom: Xach: fixing up a tool that generates wrappers
2014-08-07T20:38:28Z jasom: I found where it exports the symbols and moved things around to make it work
2014-08-07T20:38:49Z jasom: of course it was originally generating code like: (export '(foo:bar foo:baz)) which is completely useless
2014-08-07T20:40:02Z Xach: ah.
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2014-08-07T20:40:05Z jasom: I know it was previously only ever used on lispworks, so I'm guessing it has a more forgiving reader.
2014-08-07T20:40:18Z Xach: there's a restart on sbcl, iirc
2014-08-07T20:40:25Z Xach: don't think it's standard
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2014-08-07T20:46:07Z jasom: okay, I ran out of heap compiling the file with my new change :(
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2014-08-07T21:02:12Z bhyde: jasom: i wonder ... (export '(foo:bar foo:baz))  work in some scenarios.  if the right symbols got interned when the fasl was built, then I believe the fasl will load correctly.
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2014-08-07T21:08:33Z Xach: if it works, you don't need it
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2014-08-07T21:09:23Z Xach: well, not really true. it would work if *package* is not named FOO but foo:bar and foo:baz are imported into it.
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2014-08-07T21:14:55Z bhyde: what i'm thinking is sort of tangled.  I'm assuming that the code he was working on did in fact carefully build a list of symbols to export (in a macro say) and then it exported them shortly after that.  The macro then expanded into a form to Q up the export later when the fasl loads.  The resulting fasl will refer to the symbols in the package and they will be exported again ... since when the fasl is loaded it won't "read" the symbol
2014-08-07T21:14:55Z bhyde: names, but rather it will have a more exacting reference to the symbol. ... at least that's my memory of how the fasl formats work
2014-08-07T21:15:13Z AeroNotix: so what do you all work on with CL?
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2014-08-07T21:17:26Z Xach: I make box office charts.
2014-08-07T21:17:41Z p_l|backup is tempted to write a disk editor
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2014-08-07T21:19:48Z Adlai`: when would initialization arguments be passed to update-instance-for-redefined-class?
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2014-08-07T21:20:20Z adlai: 4.6.3.{1-3} seem to suggest that no initargs are ever passed... or do we get the new classes default-initargs?
2014-08-07T21:21:21Z Shinmera: Rewriting my web framework and web-apps.
2014-08-07T21:21:32Z Shinmera: Amongst other things
2014-08-07T21:22:39Z AeroNotix: cool
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2014-08-07T21:25:53Z kristof: Shinmera: Not a fan of clack?
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2014-08-07T21:27:16Z Shinmera: kristof: I'm a fan of writing my stacks from the ground up.
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2014-08-07T21:28:37Z kristof: Shinmera: That is fun, true.
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2014-08-07T21:31:09Z Shinmera: kristof: Rewriting my framework in a way that isn't complete garbage and in a language that isn't complete garbage was also my initial starting point in CL, so I've been working on this for a long time now.
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2014-08-07T21:39:35Z kristof: Shinmera: What was it originally written in?
2014-08-07T21:39:45Z Shinmera: kristof: PHP
2014-08-07T21:40:46Z kristof: Shinmera: I'm sorry for your loss.
2014-08-07T21:41:01Z kristof: Shinmera: That sounds like an excellent project to really submerge in CL, though.
2014-08-07T21:41:08Z kristof: *submerge yourself.
2014-08-07T21:41:16Z kristof: Shinmera: Is it fun?
2014-08-07T21:41:18Z Shinmera: kristof: It has been a far-reaching and in-depth project so far, so yes.
2014-08-07T21:41:42Z Shinmera: kristof: Lots of smaller libraries have sprung out of it that are useful in other areas as well
2014-08-07T21:43:51Z Shinmera: kristof: It has definitely been the most fun I've ever had with programming
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2014-08-07T21:47:16Z kristof: Shinmera: That's awesome, then!
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2014-08-07T21:48:05Z kristof: Shinmera: I'm actually looking at your twitter library at the moment.
2014-08-07T21:48:24Z Shinmera: Ah, right
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2014-08-07T21:48:45Z Shinmera: I... don't quite recall what prompted me to write that. I think I wanted to integrate twitter streaming into my IRC bot or something.
2014-08-07T21:49:42Z kristof: That's... a weird thing to integrate into an irc bot.
2014-08-07T21:49:51Z kristof: I don't like twitter at all, to be honest.
2014-08-07T21:50:20Z Shinmera: It's the only 'social media' thing I can appreciate, but I only like a small subset of it
2014-08-07T21:50:41Z kristof: I can't appreciate anything that limits character count.
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2014-08-07T21:50:48Z Shinmera: I think the reason for integrating it was that I got tired of constantly mirroring links and things I said on twitter to my main chatting channel.
2014-08-07T21:50:50Z Shinmera: Hah
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2014-08-07T23:39:21Z pjb: Indeed you couldn't use print-object, butyou could define your own generic function print-with-my-strange-syntax.
2014-08-07T23:42:16Z jasom: pjb: I opted for the more simple (export (intern "SYMBOL" package) package) which should always work
2014-08-07T23:42:18Z |3b|: pprint dispatch would be easier if applicable
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2014-08-07T23:43:26Z jasom: pjb: it needed a bit more reworking of the code, but made things more understandable for me at least.  Rich Hickey seems to prefer do-foo and mapfoo over loop , while I'm the opposite, so following the code is fun...
2014-08-07T23:43:28Z |3b|: easier than writing your own entire printer, that is
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2014-08-08T01:53:06Z enn: in testing, it looks like sb-ext:*init-hooks* get run before the argument to save-lisp-and-die's :toplevel. Is that order something I can more or less rely on?
2014-08-08T01:53:27Z Xach: is it documented?
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2014-08-08T01:54:27Z enn: no
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2014-08-08T01:58:18Z Xach: maybe you could persuade someone to document it and therefore cast it in stone!!
2014-08-08T01:58:23Z Xach: thereby?
2014-08-08T01:59:36Z enn: indeed
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2014-08-08T06:37:23Z drmeiste_: Success!  weak-key-hash-table implemented and implemented in a way that works with Boehm and should work with MPS.
2014-08-08T06:37:28Z drmeiste_ is now known as drmeister
2014-08-08T06:38:29Z Guthur: drmeister: how far away is a release of your implementation?
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2014-08-08T06:39:44Z drmeister: I'm just waiting now to get the clear from our lawyers.  I'm a University professor and I need to consult with them.  It will be on github.
2014-08-08T06:40:05Z Guthur: ah, well hopefully that goes well
2014-08-08T06:40:39Z Guthur: drmeister: is it something that you foresee having continual development
2014-08-08T06:40:45Z drmeister: It should.
2014-08-08T06:40:47Z Guthur: incremental improvements
2014-08-08T06:41:17Z drmeister: I really hope so.  There are a lot of cool things we can do with this.
2014-08-08T06:41:33Z Guthur: nice, might be interesting if it had pluggable GCs
2014-08-08T06:41:40Z Guthur: ...as one example
2014-08-08T06:42:05Z drmeister: It does have pluggable GC's - two at the moment.
2014-08-08T06:42:14Z Guthur: sweet
2014-08-08T06:42:39Z Guthur: i know you are using LLVM, and it has GC intrinsics, so was hoping that the answer would be yes
2014-08-08T06:42:58Z drmeister: It's done with C++ template classes that work like STL allocators.
2014-08-08T06:44:12Z Guthur: how close is it too complying with the CLHS?
2014-08-08T06:44:48Z drmeister: LLVM GC intrinsics are broken but new stuff is coming available  - check out http://www.philipreames.com/Blog/tag/gc/  for details.
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2014-08-08T06:46:28Z drmeister: Re complying to the CLHS there is stuff missing from my implementation and I'm sure I've got some bugs in there.  The goal is to make it completely consistent with the CLHS.  Any differences between what Clasp does and the CLHS are considered bugs in Clasp.
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2014-08-08T06:47:07Z drmeister: Currently I'm missing between 50 and 100 standard symbols of the 978 symbols of standard CL.
2014-08-08T06:47:26Z Bike: how do you do with http://common-lisp.net/project/ansi-test/, i think it is
2014-08-08T06:47:28Z Bike: not well i guess
2014-08-08T06:48:44Z drmeister: Not yet - no,  the two times I tried to run those tests they barely got started before I some basic functionality showed up as missing.
2014-08-08T06:48:52Z drmeister: On the other hand I have ASDF loading.
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2014-08-08T06:49:18Z drmeister: I've been more focused on speed and garbage collection for the past six months.
2014-08-08T06:49:23Z AeroNotix: What does your implementation do that I should care about?
2014-08-08T06:50:30Z H4ns: AeroNotix: how does it matter what you care about?  how should anyone but you know? :)
2014-08-08T06:50:39Z Shinmera: It makes dreams come true
2014-08-08T06:50:57Z H4ns: software is dreams that came true
2014-08-08T06:50:58Z drmeister: AeroNotix: Hmm, it lets you easily expose any C++ library, it exposes the Clang AST Matcher library and lets you search and refactor C++/C code programmatically, it exposes the LLVM C++ library and lets you generate LLVM-IR and native code on the fly.
2014-08-08T06:51:03Z Shinmera: H4ns: exactly
2014-08-08T06:51:12Z AeroNotix: H4ns: just wondering what motivates people to write a lisp implementation
2014-08-08T06:51:45Z AeroNotix: drmeister: hmm, I think I watched a video about some Lisp library that was aiming at being a refactoring tool for C++
2014-08-08T06:52:14Z drmeister: AeroNotix: It's the only Common Lisp implementation that interoperates with C++ and can expose complex C++ libraries without having to write complex and delicate FFI code.
2014-08-08T06:52:35Z Zhivago: Probably needs a 'directly' in there.
2014-08-08T06:52:46Z AeroNotix: drmeister: cool
2014-08-08T06:52:53Z Guthur: drmeister: that actually sounds really interesting to me
2014-08-08T06:52:58Z drmeister: AeroNotix: I think you watched my first video on my Lisp system that is aiming at being a refactoring tool for C++.
2014-08-08T06:53:57Z drmeister: Guthur: Great! I'm hoping it offers enough interesting stuff that people will pick it up and run with it.
2014-08-08T06:54:05Z Guthur: drmeister: I have an interest in games development, one of the major challenges I have found with regard to leveraging game technology such as the Unreal Engine from CL is that they predominantly expose C++ interfaces
2014-08-08T06:54:30Z drmeister: I'd love to see the Unreal Engine exposed within Clasp.
2014-08-08T06:54:46Z Guthur: drmeister: it would certainly be interesting
2014-08-08T06:54:58Z Guthur: Clasp sounds like the only realistic chance of that
2014-08-08T06:55:05Z zRecursi`: drmeister: Hope it could compile Maxima and stumpwm faster than CCL
2014-08-08T06:55:07Z Guthur: ...using from CL
2014-08-08T06:55:22Z drmeister: If I could build a 3d game in Common Lisp - that would impress my daughter.  :-)
2014-08-08T06:55:50Z Guthur: drmeister: I need to go, but you have certainly raised my interest of Clasp
2014-08-08T06:55:59Z Guthur: of/in
2014-08-08T06:56:28Z Zhivago: Well, you can build 3d games in javascript, so ... it shouldn't be hard. :)
2014-08-08T06:56:43Z drmeister: zRecursi`: I don't know about faster - LLVM isn't the speediest compiler back end.  But it seems fast enough to me.
2014-08-08T06:57:17Z zRecursi`: i believe it will be faster than CCL
2014-08-08T06:57:46Z drmeister: Guthur: Keep watching this space and "hacker news", www.reddit.com/r/lisp etc.
2014-08-08T06:58:07Z zRecursi`: ok
2014-08-08T06:58:09Z drmeister: zRecursi`: Getting Maxima is part of my plan.
2014-08-08T06:58:18Z drmeister: Getting Maxima working is part of my plan.
2014-08-08T06:58:35Z drmeister: Do you use Maxima?
2014-08-08T06:58:51Z H4ns: drmeister: being faster than ccl is quite a bold goal, in particular if you plan on optimizing anything
2014-08-08T06:59:00Z zRecursi`: I build Maxima using CCL once there is update
2014-08-08T06:59:36Z drmeister: H4ns: I get a lot of optimization for free from LLVM.
2014-08-08T07:00:40Z H4ns: drmeister: you don't get it for free in terms of compiler run time, or do you?  but i'll be happily see a CL that compiles faster than ccl.
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2014-08-08T07:01:20Z logand```: doesnt clisp compile faster?  not to faster code though
2014-08-08T07:01:21Z drmeister: Why do you use ccl vs sbcl?
2014-08-08T07:02:11Z logand```: ccl compiles much faster than sbcl, and is more "light-weight" kind of
2014-08-08T07:02:13Z H4ns: logand```: clisp and ccl are in different leagues when it comes to performance of the compiled programs.  it is easy to write a fast non-optimizing compiler.
2014-08-08T07:02:30Z logand```: :-)
2014-08-08T07:02:39Z zRecursi`: It seems CCL is faster than SBCL when compling Maxima
2014-08-08T07:02:45Z H4ns: drmeister: i'm using sbcl.  i worked in a shop that switched from sbcl to ccl because ccl compiled so much faster with a modest penalty in run-time performance.
2014-08-08T07:03:15Z H4ns: drmeister: ccl reduced compile times from around 30 to 10 minutes for a full compile in that system, iirc.
2014-08-08T07:04:01Z H4ns: drmeister: anyway, first get it to compile the ansi tests, then to run them :)
2014-08-08T07:04:03Z Zhivago: What does it spend that time doing?
2014-08-08T07:04:39Z drmeister: I'll have to do some head to head comparisons on compilation speed.   Right now my compiler is not very sophisticated - it doesn't do much optimizing at the language level but uses all of the LLVM optimization (inlining etc) at the LLVM-IR level.
2014-08-08T07:04:42Z logand```: why not develop on ccl to get fast compilation and deploy sbcl to get fast runtime?  needs writing portable code and a bit more testing, but might be an option
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2014-08-08T07:06:43Z H4ns: logand```: that was of course what they've been doing.
2014-08-08T07:06:54Z logand```: H4ns: when switching from sbcl to ccl, did that shop noticed any runtime slowness issues?
2014-08-08T07:06:58Z H4ns: logand```: and then the project was canceled.
2014-08-08T07:07:01Z AeroNotix: Is there a "best" implementation for SLIME integration?
2014-08-08T07:07:06Z logand```: ah no good
2014-08-08T07:07:18Z H4ns: logand```: of course they did.  that was the "modest runtime performance penalty" that i have mentioned.
2014-08-08T07:07:27Z drmeister: I don't really know how fast my compiler runs compared to others - but any CL that compiles to C needs to run through a C compiler and Clang is a pretty fast C compiler.  How does ECL compare to CCL?
2014-08-08T07:07:28Z logand```: but didnt have to be for technical reasons
2014-08-08T07:07:32Z H4ns: AeroNotix: sbcl gets the most care.
2014-08-08T07:08:01Z AeroNotix: H4ns: that's what I've been using, no complaints
2014-08-08T07:08:09Z AeroNotix: just thought I might be missing out on something :)
2014-08-08T07:08:53Z logand```: H4ns: yeah, they did, but was it really a problem and was it solvable except by switching to sbcl in production?
2014-08-08T07:09:29Z drmeister: AeroNotix: Oh another thing is I'm taking a lot of trouble to track source code - for debuggability. I've also added DWARF debugging information so you can compile with lldb or gdb.  Currently that's only Common Lisp line number information and C++ local variables.
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2014-08-08T07:10:56Z H4ns: logand```: maintaining sbcl compiles was a constant source of work, also for the developers who used ccl because sbcl provides more compilation diagnostics.  i.e. we got to fix stuff sometimes because sbcl complained in some way that ccl did not.  sbcl was mostly right with its complaints, of course.
2014-08-08T07:11:12Z AeroNotix: drmeister: interessting
2014-08-08T07:11:38Z H4ns: logand```: there was no production, so all efforts were wasted in the end :)
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2014-08-08T07:13:43Z drmeister: I still have to handle macros better.   What file/line number does expanded macro source come from?  From where the macro was used or where the macro was defined or do both need to be tracked?
2014-08-08T07:14:14Z drmeister: I don't have a clear answer to that.
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2014-08-08T07:17:19Z drmeister: It's one of the things that should benefit from the weak-key-hash-table functionality I just added.
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2014-08-08T07:20:19Z logand```: H4ns: ok thanks;  I find the compilation diagnostics useful too, doing triple: acl, ccl, sbcl and it really helps to improve code;  i'm going to face the decision between ccl and sbcl too at some point so it's good to know what problems I can hit
2014-08-08T07:21:14Z AeroNotix: logand```: do you have that automated ?
2014-08-08T07:21:39Z AeroNotix: It'd be cool to have say your Jenkins job run your CI with various implementations
2014-08-08T07:22:00Z logand```: what, fixing?  i wish, but at that stage code writing would be automated too :-)
2014-08-08T07:22:24Z H4ns: logand```: the general performance hit between ccl and sbcl was in the order of 20% of run time in our application.  it was a general crud server application and overall performance was dependent on external factors (database, other servers), so we could live with the penalty.
2014-08-08T07:23:06Z logand```: sounds good, i think we could live with that too
2014-08-08T07:23:15Z H4ns: logand```: basically, developer productivity was more important than run time.  we could not become productive enough to prevent the project from being canceled, though :)
2014-08-08T07:23:52Z logand```: lack of funding?
2014-08-08T07:24:00Z AeroNotix: H4ns: which parts of your development couldn't you do with live environments with SLIME for instance? I assume you wanted to use CCL because it compiled faster.
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2014-08-08T07:25:43Z H4ns: AeroNotix: we required full compilation and with dumped images for our regression test suite (which took another 15 minutes for the smallest acceptable set for a push to the main dev branch).
2014-08-08T07:25:53Z AeroNotix: Makes sense
2014-08-08T07:26:01Z logand```: AeroNotix: I can only thing of one thing which doesnt work so well with slime: developing under wine+sbcl, it's possible but annoying :-)
2014-08-08T07:26:03Z AeroNotix: 15 minutes, golly, that's quick
2014-08-08T07:26:22Z AeroNotix: H4ns: the one we have at work takes a full 25 minutes because of certain shittiness with Erlang build tools
2014-08-08T07:26:46Z AeroNotix: logand```: I don't develop anything with Windows, it's a non-issue for me
2014-08-08T07:26:48Z AeroNotix: thankfully
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2014-08-08T07:27:54Z AeroNotix: damn I love SLIME :)
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2014-08-08T07:38:22Z AeroNotix: https://github.com/AeroNotix/cl-webkit/commit/c7dcac80dd8cb11c42b00caf20f8c6bc782bbee8 anyone know how I would prevent needing to do stuff like this?
2014-08-08T07:38:31Z AeroNotix: I've never wrote any cffi code at all
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2014-08-08T08:19:54Z Guthur`: H4ns: dis that project you were working on get implemented in a different language or cancelled entirely?
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2014-08-08T08:24:05Z AeroNotix: interesting q
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2014-08-08T09:44:21Z H4ns: Guthur`: i was talking about ita's reservation system.  it was originally planned to be used by air canada, then deployed for a micro airline and finally cancelled entirely.
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2014-08-08T10:11:11Z Guthur`: H4ns: ah ok
2014-08-08T10:11:38Z Guthur`: does ITA exist in any shape or form within google now
2014-08-08T10:12:19Z Guthur`: or has it been completely assimilated
2014-08-08T10:20:49Z Cymew: It has been cancelled? Sad.
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2014-08-08T10:33:11Z AeroNotix: in Clojure there's #_ to comment a form out, is there anything like that in CL?
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2014-08-08T10:33:56Z H4ns: #+(or)
2014-08-08T10:34:27Z Shinmera: #+() should work too.
2014-08-08T10:34:54Z H4ns: interesting idea
2014-08-08T10:36:58Z Shinmera: Otherwise: (set-dispatch-macro-character #\# #\_ #'(lambda (s c a) (declare (ignore c a)) (read s) (values)))
2014-08-08T10:37:18Z AeroNotix: H4ns: cool
2014-08-08T10:37:27Z AeroNotix: ahh I see how that works
2014-08-08T10:37:45Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: nice :)
2014-08-08T10:38:07Z Shinmera: I'd recommend against using it though unless you'll use named-readtables or similar to make sure you don't mess with other projects.
2014-08-08T10:40:18Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: yeah I probably won't use the #_ form since I already know of a project using that
2014-08-08T10:40:21Z AeroNotix: commonqt
2014-08-08T10:40:34Z Shinmera: CommonQt uses named-readtables as well
2014-08-08T10:42:00Z H4ns: using a reader macro in that case would be rather tasteless
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2014-08-08T10:57:24Z JuanDaugherty again with the clasped mouf
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2014-08-08T11:14:06Z Vivitron: AeroNotix: I use #; to comment the line and the following form. Experience tells me that in the common case a commented form should have an explanatory comment.
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2014-08-08T11:26:20Z Zhivago: It would be nice to be able to have forms as comments.
2014-08-08T11:26:43Z Zhivago: (+ 1 (comment -- this is addition) 2) :)
2014-08-08T11:27:01Z H4ns: like in clojure :D
2014-08-08T11:27:08Z Zhivago: But that would require macros to be able to produce zero or more results, rather than the current one result.
2014-08-08T11:27:17Z Zhivago: Ah, good -- another thing clojure got right. :)
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2014-08-08T11:35:22Z JuanDaugherty imagines a dystopic future where clojure, scheme, and cl are equals
2014-08-08T11:38:05Z Zhivago: By what metric?
2014-08-08T11:38:33Z Zhivago: If you mean number of users, then I can certainly imagining them converging on the same value. :)
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2014-08-08T11:40:35Z JuanDaugherty: by having standing as "1st class" lisps. Interestingly this made me realize the utopian nature of the status quo
2014-08-08T11:40:46Z JuanDaugherty: with CL as primus inter pares
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2014-08-08T11:42:37Z JuanDaugherty: and yeah mind/use share is prolly an equivalent to that
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2014-08-08T11:44:52Z Zhivago: In whose minds?
2014-08-08T11:45:02Z JuanDaugherty: the overmind?
2014-08-08T11:45:09Z Zhivago: Sounds like gibberish.
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2014-08-08T11:50:27Z Guthur: gibberish was my first thought, at the beginning
2014-08-08T11:51:39Z Shinmera: a comment form you say? http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view?id=5S
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2014-08-08T11:53:19Z JuanDaugherty: Shinmera, nice
2014-08-08T11:55:29Z Zhivago: but if the reader drops it, it isn't available for analysis. :
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2014-08-08T11:56:53Z Vivitron: Shinmera: I thought you could only unread one char?
2014-08-08T11:57:16Z Shinmera: unreading just pushes a character on the front of the stream
2014-08-08T11:57:28Z Shinmera: I record the characters I 'peek' and then push them back on
2014-08-08T11:58:13Z Vivitron: clhs unread-char
2014-08-08T11:58:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_unrd_c.htm
2014-08-08T11:58:37Z Vivitron: See "It is an error"
2014-08-08T11:58:45Z Shinmera: Interesting
2014-08-08T11:59:16Z Vivitron: You could use file-position instead I think
2014-08-08T11:59:38Z Zhivago: Streams don't necessarily have a file-position.
2014-08-08T11:59:40Z Shinmera: Well it hasn't errored on me, so I'm wondering if SBCL is doing something wrong there or what's going on
2014-08-08T12:00:39Z Vivitron: Maybe sbcl allows it
2014-08-08T12:00:49Z Shinmera: Wouldn't be conforming then though
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2014-08-08T12:03:29Z Shinmera: still, you could achieve the same result without having to unread with some more tweaking
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2014-08-08T12:44:49Z Xach: Shinmera: Do you have a tumblr library?
2014-08-08T12:45:21Z Shinmera: I do not, but I've almost started writing one at least ten times now.
2014-08-08T12:45:36Z Xach: oko
2014-08-08T12:45:58Z Shinmera: If that's a thing you'd be interested in I could see if I can shift my priorities for a week or so
2014-08-08T12:46:15Z Xach: It's a thing I could use if it existed
2014-08-08T12:46:19Z Xach: Not pressing
2014-08-08T12:46:26Z Shinmera: Alright
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2014-08-08T14:17:53Z drmeister: Does anyone use weak-value-hash-table(s) or weak-key-value-hash-table(s) with weak-key-and-value or weak-key-or-value weakness?
2014-08-08T14:17:57Z drmeister: What are they good for?
2014-08-08T14:18:31Z drmeister: I just implemented weak-key-hash-table and I'm debugging weak-pointer - I could add a couple of these other weak types at this point or just move on.
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2014-08-08T14:25:13Z drmeister: Rererereading this is answering my question: http://www.haible.de/bruno/papers/cs/weak/WeakDatastructures-writeup.html
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2014-08-08T14:36:41Z dlowe: I'm unconvinced of the value of weak pointers in general
2014-08-08T14:37:17Z oGMo: then write more code ;p
2014-08-08T14:37:36Z oGMo: you can simply not do certain things without weak pointers
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2014-08-08T14:38:13Z oGMo: though it would make sense if you're unconvinced about automatic memory management as well
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2014-08-08T14:39:40Z dlowe: do you mean "you simply cannot do certain things..."?
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2014-08-08T14:40:13Z dlowe: or "you can not do certain things simply"?
2014-08-08T14:40:33Z oGMo: no there are things that---assuming a GC---you cannot do correctly without weak pointers
2014-08-08T14:41:32Z oGMo: for instance, if you write in-memory objects to disk and restore them on demand, you can't do this correctly without maintaining a weak copy _in case_ it's still referenced by something else, and not collected by the time you look for it again
2014-08-08T14:42:16Z oGMo: you can't even do it inefficiently by looking through memory because you can't determine identity
2014-08-08T14:43:04Z Zhivago: Can't you do that using a non-weak indirection box?
2014-08-08T14:43:05Z oGMo: the ability to say "you can collect this, but if you don't i need the original" is invaluable in a lot of cases
2014-08-08T14:43:19Z oGMo: Zhivago: that prevents it from ever being collected?
2014-08-08T14:43:35Z Zhivago: Well, you'd have to zap the box manually.
2014-08-08T14:43:50Z oGMo: how do you determine when?
2014-08-08T14:43:59Z oGMo: i.e., when do you know that nothing else has a reference and it's safe?
2014-08-08T14:44:43Z ggole: By seeing when the GC frees, it of course :)
2014-08-08T14:44:43Z dlowe: if you're in a GC'd environment, it's always safe
2014-08-08T14:44:44Z oGMo: if you're manually managing memory, you could do it that way, but you'd be writing some sort of GC even still, really
2014-08-08T14:44:49Z Zhivago: Well, you can alway set up a reservation protocol.
2014-08-08T14:44:56Z Zhivago: Sure.
2014-08-08T14:45:01Z oGMo: dlowe: no, because you _must know_ when there are no more references
2014-08-08T14:45:11Z dlowe: the GC knows when there are no more references
2014-08-08T14:45:32Z oGMo: and how then does your code know?
2014-08-08T14:45:56Z dlowe: cache expiration is a problem your code should already have a handle on
2014-08-08T14:46:01Z dlowe: it's almost never subject to memory pressure
2014-08-08T14:46:02Z oGMo: you either have a strong reference, meaning it's _never_ collected, or you don't, and you can't maintain identity
2014-08-08T14:46:06Z oGMo: (or you use a weak ref)
2014-08-08T14:46:20Z oGMo: dlowe: this is not cache expiration
2014-08-08T14:46:28Z oGMo: this is about _identity_
2014-08-08T14:46:57Z oGMo: e.g., you have a game which writes out the state of various map segments. when you re-enter the area, it loads it off disk
2014-08-08T14:47:28Z oGMo: if you have existing refs somewhere, you either have two copies, breaking everything, or you need to determine identity, and restore the single "official" object
2014-08-08T14:48:11Z Zhivago: Or you arrange things into pages and overwrite the appropriate page and to the devil with the hindmost.
2014-08-08T14:48:26Z Zhivago: Which may be what you want for a game.
2014-08-08T14:48:28Z oGMo: even if you implement a caching scheme where you look up an object in an array, that's not good enough, because you could have references at some point when you decide to expunge the element in the array, still resulting in two copies and inconsistency
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2014-08-08T14:48:59Z oGMo: Zhivago: that is not how it works, and this is only a single example of many possible similar things
2014-08-08T14:49:02Z Zhivago: That's not so true of immobile object schemes, like pages.
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2014-08-08T14:53:06Z dlowe: Or even just an indirection using ID mapping where you simply don't use direct references to objects that might be unloaded
2014-08-08T14:53:08Z oGMo: another example is implementing a notification/observer/etc protocol where you want to attach to objects weakly, letting them go away if nothing references them .. otherwise you basically leak memory
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2014-08-08T14:53:38Z oGMo: dlowe: you can't do that
2014-08-08T14:53:53Z oGMo: because how _given_ an ID, do you get an _actual_ reference?
2014-08-08T14:54:04Z oGMo: (that's what a weak pointer _is_, btw)
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2014-08-08T14:54:29Z oGMo: you can't implement it with strong refs, ever, because any strong ref prevents collection
2014-08-08T14:55:04Z dlowe: if you have a mapping, then you call your lookup function. occasionally, you check the elements of your map to see if they've been accessed lately and expire them
2014-08-08T14:55:14Z oGMo: that is terrible
2014-08-08T14:55:25Z dlowe: that's very different from "you can't do that"
2014-08-08T14:55:30Z oGMo: otherwise we'd implement GC's that way, and just get rid of objects that are old rather than unreferenced
2014-08-08T14:55:33Z dlowe: since the mapping is the only strong ref, it goes away
2014-08-08T14:55:36Z oGMo: dlowe: i said _correctly_
2014-08-08T14:55:45Z oGMo: dlowe: and no, it may not be hte only strong ref
2014-08-08T14:55:59Z oGMo: (because any time you get a ref from the ID, you again have another strong ref)
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2014-08-08T14:56:15Z dlowe: yes, but those are transient by design
2014-08-08T14:56:19Z oGMo: (whether in parallel code or code up the stack)
2014-08-08T14:56:29Z oGMo: how can you be sure?
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2014-08-08T14:56:50Z oGMo: you're essentially back to non-automatic memory management or refcounting, both of which suck
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2014-08-08T14:57:19Z Zhivago: (mostly)
2014-08-08T14:57:41Z dlowe: it's still automatic memory management, it's just not being managed by the implementation
2014-08-08T14:57:56Z oGMo: Zhivago: there are some cases where static management is fine, but generally not something you want to deal with
2014-08-08T14:58:18Z oGMo: dlowe: it's still manual, because you have to say "i'm not using this anymore"
2014-08-08T14:58:33Z Zhivago: Mostly GC is good for decoupling responsibilities.
2014-08-08T14:58:54Z oGMo: you could make a macro that's like WITH-REFERENCE, but that's still prettified _and_ you must make sure references don't escape
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2014-08-08T15:05:07Z pnpuff: oGMo: maybe it would be fine implement GC such as an optional module
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2014-08-08T15:05:35Z Zhivago: What I'd like to see is better integration between GC for memory and other resources.
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2014-08-08T15:09:00Z dim: resources? you're soon to enter the "admission control" world, full of Queuing Theory
2014-08-08T15:09:07Z oGMo: i'd like a customizable GC where you could optionally implement your own collection for certain types
2014-08-08T15:09:40Z dim: I'd like that SBCL had a less conservative collector
2014-08-08T15:09:45Z oGMo: e.g. slab allocation for certain things or similar
2014-08-08T15:09:54Z dim: I don't know about Concurrent GC, but it looks like it could be good too
2014-08-08T15:10:10Z dim: oGMo: I've heard you can tweak that easily enough using mmap
2014-08-08T15:10:25Z dim: mmm, I should see about mmap to share my batches between threads in pgloader, after all.
2014-08-08T15:10:31Z oGMo: dim: that's not really a tweak heh
2014-08-08T15:10:43Z dim: and then tweak the copy driver to push from the mmap region directly
2014-08-08T15:10:47Z dim: hell yeah
2014-08-08T15:11:01Z dim: damn, got another idea spinning
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2014-08-08T15:11:39Z dim: to use mmap in CL, would you recommend osicat or something else?
2014-08-08T15:11:42Z Zhivago: Well, having the GC be able to say to the program -- "you're running short of memory/files/whatevers, you might like to release some".
2014-08-08T15:11:51Z Zhivago: That would probably be sufficient.
2014-08-08T15:13:51Z oGMo: could be useful and surely not that hard to implement
2014-08-08T15:14:46Z oGMo: just having something like a "high watermark" and signal
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2014-08-08T15:16:30Z pnpuff: I really don't know if increasing the number of weak pointers increases the probability of memory leacks if they're non properly deferenced...anyway some languages are good even without them I suppose
2014-08-08T15:16:59Z Zhivago: What do they have to do with memory leaks?
2014-08-08T15:17:35Z oGMo: pnpuff: o.O
2014-08-08T15:18:05Z pnpuff: mmh ... I'm reading something ... not really involved still into such topic
2014-08-08T15:18:31Z pnpuff: I've found something of interesting in the boost library
2014-08-08T15:18:39Z pnpuff: but I've to read better
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2014-08-08T15:27:28Z pnpuff: oGMo: ok, I was referring to languages with an explicit memory management.
2014-08-08T15:29:03Z Zhivago: In which case, why do you have weak references?
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2014-08-08T15:29:20Z Zhivago: Ah, that refcounting hack.
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2014-08-08T15:43:11Z dim: it looks like manardb might be the right tool for the job when ones to play with fixed memory objects in mmap'ed regions: http://cl-www.msi.co.jp/projects/manardb/api.html
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2014-08-08T16:04:01Z spockokt: hello lisp
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2014-08-08T16:17:29Z jasom: spockokt: How are you today.. What would you like to discuss?
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2014-08-08T16:20:59Z spockokt: jasom: im well thank you. at the moment nothing in particular. just thought i would just say hello
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2014-08-08T17:19:03Z drmeister: oGMo: I missed that interesting conversation about weak-pointers - too bad.
2014-08-08T17:19:22Z oGMo: drmeister: "weak pointers, you need them"
2014-08-08T17:19:33Z drmeister: That is exactly why I'm implementing weak-key-hash-table - to get cl-conspack working so that I can serialize objects in and out of files.
2014-08-08T17:19:47Z oGMo: (and they have to be a fundamental construct)
2014-08-08T17:19:54Z drmeister: Yup, they are now.
2014-08-08T17:19:57Z dlowe: "weak pointers. you need them for systems where weak pointers are required."
2014-08-08T17:20:32Z oGMo: actually i wonder why they're in cl-conspack
2014-08-08T17:21:19Z drmeister: I'm going to implement a weak :key mapping next and that should round out everything anyone would need.
2014-08-08T17:21:30Z dlowe: hm. cl-conspack looks pretty nice
2014-08-08T17:21:34Z drmeister: Do you know what a weak :key mapping is?
2014-08-08T17:21:44Z oGMo: oooh right, properties
2014-08-08T17:22:00Z oGMo: drmeister: it means the key is the weak pointer
2014-08-08T17:22:14Z oGMo: vs the value being the weak pointer, or both
2014-08-08T17:22:22Z drmeister: Is it just a key/value pair where the key is weak and if the value is the key it doesn't keep the key alive?
2014-08-08T17:23:07Z drmeister: This document doesn't make it clear to me: http://www.haible.de/bruno/papers/cs/weak/WeakDatastructures-writeup.html
2014-08-08T17:23:10Z oGMo: i'm not sure what you mean by "value is the key" .. it's like (setf (gethash key *table*) value), and KEY is not VALUE
2014-08-08T17:23:34Z oGMo: (if it were, it'd defeat the point presumably)
2014-08-08T17:24:19Z drmeister: Well, the Haible paper differentiates between week :key mappings  and weak-key-hash-tables.    I am assuming that a weak-key-hash-table is conceptually made up of many week :key mappings.
2014-08-08T17:24:47Z oGMo: drmeister: i don't know, but in this case, it just means the key is a weak pointer
2014-08-08T17:25:22Z drmeister: And that a weak :key mapping is like a CONS where the CAR is a weak pointer and the CDR is a normal pointer but if you go (WEAK-KEY-MAPPING key key) the value part doesn't keep the key alive.
2014-08-08T17:25:23Z oGMo: but transparently so, to the user; i.e. the key is an object O, but instead of keeping a reference to O, it keeps a weak pointer to O
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2014-08-08T17:26:16Z drmeister: They point out in the Haible paper that a weak pointer can be emulated by (WEAK-KEY-MAPPING ptr ptr) IFF the value part doesn't keep the object pointed to by ptr alive.   If it did then you would defeat the purpose.
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2014-08-08T17:26:28Z oGMo: drmeister: yeah
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2014-08-08T17:26:58Z oGMo: the paper looks like it's talking about the right things .. specifically wrt trivial-garbage afaict
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2014-08-08T17:27:30Z drmeister: Right - it says in the Haible paper that it is best to implement THREE kinds of weak objects,  weak-pointer, weak-key-mapping, weak-key-hash-table.
2014-08-08T17:27:42Z oGMo: cl-conspack lets you say "associate this PLIST with this object", but it doesn't hold a strong reference, so the object and properties can go away whenever
2014-08-08T17:28:14Z oGMo: drmeister: well, if you're doing it, why not ;)
2014-08-08T17:28:31Z drmeister: cl-conspack only requires weak-key-hash-table.     What I'm doing now is implementing everything anyone would ever need while I have weakness on the brain.
2014-08-08T17:28:40Z drmeister: Future proofing.
2014-08-08T17:29:17Z oGMo: might as well!
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2014-08-08T17:30:23Z drmeister: That's the thing - I'm not 100% certain that what I think is a weak-key-mapping is the right thing.   To implement what I said above (like CONS but weak CAR and if CDR==CAR don't keep the CAR alive) requires the implementation of a new tagged-pointer value that I would put in the value slot that says "my value is the same as the key".
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2014-08-08T17:31:21Z oGMo: well, i'm not sure how you're implementing things
2014-08-08T17:32:07Z oGMo: but i'm not sure how you could implement it without some kind of distinctive pointer the GC knows about
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2014-08-08T17:39:35Z drmeister: oGMo: I can - it's not a problem.  With the Boehm GC for the weak-key-hash-table I allocate two parallel arrays, one with keys and the other with values and each array has a pointer to the other array.
2014-08-08T17:40:14Z drmeister: The key array is allocated using GC_MALLOC_ATOMIC - which allocates in a memory that the Boehm GC manages but does not follow pointers.
2014-08-08T17:40:35Z drmeister: The value array is allocated using GC_MALLOC - this allocates in memory that the boehm GC manages and conservatively looks for pointers.
2014-08-08T17:42:03Z drmeister: Whenever a pointer is written into the key array GC_general_register_disappearing_link is called on it.  If the object pointed to by the key is collected then the Boehm GC splats that pointer with NULL.
2014-08-08T17:42:41Z drmeister: My hash-table code watches for NULL values to appear and writes UNBOUND into the KEY/VALUE pair if it encounters NULL.
2014-08-08T17:43:32Z Bike: uh? like for all hash tables?
2014-08-08T17:43:43Z drmeister: Other than that it's a straight up "open-addressing" hash table.
2014-08-08T17:43:58Z drmeister: No, just the weak-key-hash-table.
2014-08-08T17:44:02Z oGMo: oh, it looks like the "weak hash-table" bit tries to solve the key-in-value problem
2014-08-08T17:44:17Z drmeister: My regular hash tables have rib-cage structure.
2014-08-08T17:44:52Z drmeister: oGMo: My current weak-key-hash-table doesn't solve the key-in-value problem.   Should it?
2014-08-08T17:45:03Z drmeister: Because it's easy to solve.
2014-08-08T17:45:31Z oGMo: drmeister: i'm not sure if most do, but it's theoretically more useful
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2014-08-08T17:46:01Z oGMo: i think it requires the GC understand the hash mapping which probably isn't hard, but definitely a special case
2014-08-08T17:46:21Z oGMo: definitely more to the _intent_
2014-08-08T17:47:10Z drmeister: Hmm, it's the same problem as the weak :key mapping thing above.   I'll great a new tagged-ptr value called same-as-key (currently I have nil, unbound, deleted).  If it encounters that in the value slot then it will look to the key slot for the value.
2014-08-08T17:47:23Z drmeister: "I'll create a new tagged-ptr"...
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2014-08-08T17:48:55Z oGMo: this paper definitely use some editing
2014-08-08T17:48:58Z oGMo: +could
2014-08-08T17:49:01Z drmeister: The design of two parallel arrays is forced by the Memory Pool System garbage collector wherein you can allocate arrays of pointers in an Automatic-Weak-Linked pool.  Each array can contain only weak-links or strong-links and not a mixture of both (in addition to tagged pointers).
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2014-08-08T17:50:05Z drmeister: I think the weak-key-mapping is like a single element weak-key-hash-table.
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2014-08-08T17:50:14Z drmeister: Without the hashing.
2014-08-08T17:50:55Z drmeister: And I can use the same same-as-key tagged-ptr approach to solve the key-in-value problem.
2014-08-08T17:52:00Z jasom: is it me, or does the haible paper never define what it means by "weak :key mapping"
2014-08-08T17:52:03Z drmeister: It would be doable but inefficient to implement a weak-key-hash-table with a bunch of weak-key-mappings because of non-locality.
2014-08-08T17:52:22Z drmeister: jasom: I felt the same way.
2014-08-08T17:52:31Z drmeister: It's hard to put your finger on something that is missing.
2014-08-08T17:52:40Z oGMo: jasom: yeah .. i think it's a superset of some of the others defined
2014-08-08T17:52:48Z oGMo: jasom: but like i said, that paper needs work :P
2014-08-08T17:53:22Z oGMo: a good start though, just needs revised
2014-08-08T17:53:53Z drmeister: oGMo: Who's got time for that.  One practiced in the art can figure out the details (with a little help from their friends on #lisp :-) ).
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2014-08-08T17:54:19Z oGMo: drmeister: yeah sadly it seems like SOP ;/
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2014-08-08T17:59:09Z drmeister: Alrighty - I think I know the drill.   WeakKeyMappingAllocator template class, WeakKeyMapping template class, WeakKeyMappingManager template class, WeakKeyMapping_O class.   (sigh)
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2014-08-08T18:00:03Z drmeister: There is a rhythm to C++ programming.
2014-08-08T18:02:49Z drmeister: Oh wait no, this is more like the WeakKeyHashTable class and the Buckets class.
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2014-08-08T18:30:16Z drmeister: And there it is "key-in-value" problem solved for weak-key-hash-tables:   https://gist.github.com/drmeister/0d1afd5796d43ec92255
2014-08-08T18:31:58Z |3b|: if i have (defmethod foo ((a symbol) b)) and (defmethod foo (a (b some-class))), will (foo 'symbol instance-of-some-class) call the first method or the second?
2014-08-08T18:33:01Z |3b|: and is having that situation in the first place bad?
2014-08-08T18:33:03Z drmeister: I have to invoke garbage-collect multiple times to get it to take.   I think its to clear out values in the *,**,*** variables and to push the Boehm GC to do what it's supposed to do.
2014-08-08T18:33:44Z drmeister: It's left most specializers have higher precedent - isn't it?
2014-08-08T18:33:58Z drmeister: So I'd say the first method then the second.
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2014-08-08T18:34:11Z |3b| thought so, but hasn't found it in clhs yet
2014-08-08T18:34:34Z Bike: |3b|: yeah it's legit, depends on :argument-precedence-order to the method combo, it's under clhs defgeneric probably
2014-08-08T18:34:40Z oGMo: |3b|: first, and c-n-m will call the second
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2014-08-08T18:34:56Z oGMo: i find that behavior rather broken tbh
2014-08-08T18:35:21Z Bike: hm i thought it was a method combo thing but maybe not, oh well
2014-08-08T18:35:30Z Bike: :argument-precedence-order is defgeneric, anyway
2014-08-08T18:35:41Z oGMo: Bike: sadly
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2014-08-08T18:36:23Z jasom fixed a rather gnarly bug in the cli version of foil.  That's more non-lisp programming than I wanted to do this week.
2014-08-08T18:36:33Z oGMo: on one hand you have the notion of "there is no 'primary' argument", but then you have more-primary arguments
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2014-08-08T18:37:23Z ggole: What behaviour would you prefer?
2014-08-08T18:37:49Z oGMo: ggole: an error saying it's ambiguous
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2014-08-08T18:38:29Z oGMo: also the ability to change method dispatch based on argument class would be handy, e.g. for INITIALIZE-INSTANCE ordering on some classes
2014-08-08T18:38:31Z ggole: Yeah, that would be sane.
2014-08-08T18:38:43Z oGMo: i've had cases where more-specific-first would be handy
2014-08-08T18:38:47Z |3b|: well, it's useful in this case, and would be annoying to have to duplicate all the methods or add a common superclass to allow making them distinct
2014-08-08T18:39:11Z oGMo: |3b|: fortunate then
2014-08-08T18:39:13Z ggole: (Possibly with some machinery to allow ambiguity if it was desired for some reason.)
2014-08-08T18:39:22Z oGMo: ggole: oh, of course
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2014-08-08T18:39:28Z |3b|: in this case 'symbol' for a is a designator, so it looks up the symbol and calls the GF again with the result
2014-08-08T18:39:34Z oGMo: ggole: more of a "be explicit if you really mean this"
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2014-08-08T18:41:59Z |3b|: though now that i think about it, i might as well have designators for both args, and need to specify classes for A anyway :p
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2014-08-08T18:42:28Z jasom: If I have some lisp files that are autogenerated by another lisp file, can I express that in ASDF?
2014-08-08T18:43:19Z jasom: that is, if I have generator.lisp that makes output1.lisp and output2.lisp, I would want generator.lisp to be run if either output1 or output2 are nonexistant, or generator.lisp has changed?
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2014-08-08T18:51:36Z oGMo: jasom: probably if you add a custom asdf component, which isn't hard .. dunno without though
2014-08-08T18:52:06Z jasom: oGMo: That's where I'll start looking then
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2014-08-08T18:52:39Z jasom: I'd rather not check-in a 25MB source file to git
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2014-08-08T18:53:11Z jasom: but I'd also like to not have to do any more than just asdf:load-system to get it working
2014-08-08T18:53:18Z oGMo: yeah
2014-08-08T18:53:39Z Bike: you can do custom asdf classes that work fine with load-system, it should be alrigh
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2014-08-08T19:18:14Z drmeister: Did you see the job posting for a Common Lisp programmer at D-Wave.   Awesome.
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2014-08-08T19:18:48Z drmeister: Maybe I can get Clasp running on a quantum computer  (I know, not really).
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2014-08-08T19:19:06Z Xach: first things first
2014-08-08T19:19:38Z drmeister: Yes, yes.
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2014-08-08T19:20:12Z drmeister: First get it working on a classical computer before you get to use the quantum one.   It's the same old story.
2014-08-08T19:20:13Z Bike: gotta get it running on a difference engine first
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2014-08-08T19:20:23Z Bike: (I think the D-Wave thing is just a coprocessor, though?)
2014-08-08T19:20:49Z drmeister: A coprocessor the size of a bus!  Cooled in liquid helium!
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2014-08-08T19:21:06Z p_l: Bike: coprocessor controlled by OS written using SBCL
2014-08-08T19:21:16Z p_l: (afaik)
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2014-08-08T19:21:32Z Bike: it's certainly neat, i just mean i don't think it's something you run a compiler on
2014-08-08T19:22:18Z p_l: Bike: to my understanding, the management of the computation, preparing code from "client" library into actual operations are done with lisp
2014-08-08T19:22:24Z p_l: so I guess it might count as compiler
2014-08-08T19:22:30Z drmeister: It's something you run an infinite number of compilers on and then they collapse into one "Hello world" eigenstate.
2014-08-08T19:23:02Z drmeister: Or a segfault eigenstate.   There are only two.
2014-08-08T19:23:04Z Bike: did you hear that? it's as if an infinity of states of Scott Aaronson cried out, and were suddenly silenced
2014-08-08T19:23:18Z drmeister: It's a spin 1/2 processor.
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2014-08-08T19:24:24Z drmeister: Anyway, Dwave is in my home town Burnaby, B.C. Canada.
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2014-08-08T19:25:31Z Xach: wow, that covers the last contentent without lispers
2014-08-08T19:26:25Z drmeister: Would you make a weak-key-mapping a mutable or immutable object?    I'm going with immutable.
2014-08-08T19:26:53Z drmeister: Or rather I implemented mutable but I'm leaning towards immutable.
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2014-08-08T19:52:13Z dim: Fade: ping ;-)
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2014-08-08T21:20:46Z drmeister: weak-key-mapping that doesn't have the "key-in-value problem" is working great.
2014-08-08T21:20:58Z drmeister: My work here is done.
2014-08-08T21:22:24Z jasom: drmeister: huzzah
2014-08-08T21:22:52Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/d975d7693a7b23ee47bd
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2014-08-08T21:23:38Z drmeister: I have to keep pushing the garbage collector to do its thing though.  I guess that's the nature of the beast.
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2014-08-08T21:31:31Z jasom: I just dumped an executable with sbcl: uncompressed size 204MB, compressed 26MB
2014-08-08T21:31:54Z jasom: that's a fairly significant difference
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2014-08-08T21:34:32Z Xach: that's still like, 5 king's quest V's.
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2014-08-08T21:39:20Z jasom: I was about to correct you, but realized I was thinking about kq6
2014-08-08T21:39:27Z jasom: which was like 6 floppies
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2014-08-08T21:40:03Z jasom: Xach: when does quicklisp print a "." when loading?
2014-08-08T21:40:24Z Xach: jasom: after N forms seen by the macroexpand-hook
2014-08-08T21:40:36Z jasom: What is N?
2014-08-08T21:40:43Z Xach: I don't remember. 1000? 5000? 500?
2014-08-08T21:40:46Z Xach will have to check
2014-08-08T21:40:50Z jasom: this particular package prints about 30-40 lines of dots
2014-08-08T21:40:59Z Xach: I experimented with different values to get something that felt ok
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2014-08-08T21:41:15Z jasom: wait I know how many forms it is approximately
2014-08-08T21:41:18Z Xach: some compilers produce different amounts, too. and there's a lispworks bug that outputs spurious newlines.
2014-08-08T21:41:54Z jasom: around 100k forms in this system
2014-08-08T21:42:14Z jasom: so closer to 500 than 5000 certainly
2014-08-08T21:42:17Z Xach: 250 forms per character
2014-08-08T21:42:37Z Xach: see quicklisp::macroexpand-progress-fun
2014-08-08T21:43:11Z jasom: thanks
2014-08-08T21:43:24Z jasom: I agree the number is just right, btw.
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2014-08-08T21:43:42Z jasom: enough so I know it hasn't hung, not so many that emacs slows down the compilation process
2014-08-08T21:44:04Z Xach: ironclad tests me sometimes
2014-08-08T21:44:17Z jasom: ah
2014-08-08T21:44:17Z Xach: it outputs a ton, but still nearly stops on my slower computer
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2014-08-08T21:44:40Z jasom: one thing I've noticed with large systems is that CCL keeps a way smaller core when building them
2014-08-08T21:45:01Z jasom: SBCL goes back down when I do a (gc) afterwards, but gets quite big in the middle
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2014-08-08T21:45:33Z jasom: on the order of 1GB of core when compiling the largest file here, vs about 150MB for ccl
2014-08-08T21:46:59Z Xach: sbcl thinks a lot
2014-08-08T21:48:43Z jasom: In this case though, it appears that sbcl is faster compiling by a significant margin
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2014-08-08T21:49:25Z jasom: over 10 minutes now on CCL, sbcl was 3-ish IIRC
2014-08-08T21:50:26Z jasom wonders if CCL uses a linear time algorithm for adding something this has a lot of (classes, defuns, etc.)
2014-08-08T21:50:42Z jasom: because the dots are coming slower and slower
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2014-08-08T21:53:17Z Xach: oh, is this the generated thing?
2014-08-08T21:53:25Z jasom: yeah
2014-08-08T21:53:52Z Xach: it's always interesting to see what kind of stuff hits lightly-exercised compiler situations
2014-08-08T21:54:07Z Xach: generated code seems to work well at that
2014-08-08T21:54:32Z Bike: What are you generating, jasom?
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2014-08-08T21:55:38Z jasom: Bike: wrappers for gtk-sharp
2014-08-08T21:56:08Z Bike: i see.
2014-08-08T21:57:55Z oGMo: sharp? for lisp?
2014-08-08T21:58:06Z jasom: oGMo: using foil
2014-08-08T21:58:21Z oGMo: seems like the long way around
2014-08-08T21:59:01Z jasom: well it segfaults less than the gtk bindings in quicklisp
2014-08-08T21:59:08Z oGMo: doh
2014-08-08T21:59:53Z jasom: 20 minutes in and only 3/4 of the way done compiling on CCL
2014-08-08T21:59:59Z oGMo: :o
2014-08-08T22:00:10Z oGMo: how much is it generating?
2014-08-08T22:00:17Z jasom: took 4 minutes to compile on sbck
2014-08-08T22:00:20Z jasom: oGMo: about 25MB
2014-08-08T22:00:25Z oGMo: that's still an asston of time heh
2014-08-08T22:00:27Z jasom: 100k defuns
2014-08-08T22:00:33Z oGMo: ridiculous
2014-08-08T22:00:44Z jasom: but it works quite well
2014-08-08T22:00:56Z oGMo 'd just autowrap the C libs :P
2014-08-08T22:01:11Z jasom: oGMo: that gets hard since glib/gtk has odd object ownership rules
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2014-08-08T22:01:34Z jasom: though I just discovered a tool for generating xml descriptions of glib based libraries (turns out that's how gtk-sharp does it)
2014-08-08T22:01:37Z oGMo: jasom: nah you just need a wrapper macro here and there, but you generally do anyway
2014-08-08T22:01:47Z oGMo: cl-cairo2 has mark/unmark thing
2014-08-08T22:01:54Z jasom: oGMo: you need to flag every function as to does it take ownership or not
2014-08-08T22:02:12Z jasom: and similarly you need to flag output values as does it give you a reference or not
2014-08-08T22:02:34Z jasom: some functions just give you a borrowed reference (i.e. you can't still hold onto it once you return to the main loop)
2014-08-08T22:02:49Z oGMo: ok so gtk sucks heh
2014-08-08T22:03:12Z jasom: they do have some sort of convention for indicating which it does just based on the signature, IIRC.
2014-08-08T22:03:28Z oGMo: though i would be surprised if there wasn't some fairly easy heuristic, otherwise it'd be hell to code
2014-08-08T22:03:34Z oGMo: ah
2014-08-08T22:03:51Z jasom: less than 10 dots in the last 5 minutes; definitely this is super-linear in the number of something
2014-08-08T22:04:33Z jasom: oGMo: there is, but e.g. swig and the cffi groveler don't know about them, so you get to parse C now... have fun.
2014-08-08T22:04:51Z oGMo: jasom: c2ffi ;p
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2014-08-08T22:05:43Z oGMo: in theory i could add something to autowrap to let you regexp-match-and-generate wrapper code for functions
2014-08-08T22:05:49Z oGMo: but, yeah
2014-08-08T22:06:39Z jasom: also you need to rederive things like inheritance, etc.
2014-08-08T22:07:05Z oGMo: i believe those are typedef'd correctly by gtk/glib, so autowrap already does that more or less
2014-08-08T22:07:28Z oGMo: actually wait, those would be parented structs, so i guess not
2014-08-08T22:07:45Z jasom: but I'm looking at the .xml file that gtk-sharp generates and uses, and it could be translated to ffi fairly easily
2014-08-08T22:08:13Z oGMo: well if you have the definition like that and it already has the hierarchy info etc, that would be somewhat easy
2014-08-08T22:08:16Z jasom: entries for enums and classes and stuff
2014-08-08T22:08:21Z jasom: yeah, I just discovered this today.
2014-08-08T22:08:39Z jasom: I was looking for something else related to the gtk-sharp stuff and found it
2014-08-08T22:09:09Z oGMo: but, c2ffi -> autowrap does all that too, except the hierarchy stuff, which you'd presumably have to look through and extract from the lisp structs representing all the classes .. not hard, but work
2014-08-08T22:09:28Z jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143346  <-- there's the first 500 lines of it
2014-08-08T22:09:44Z jasom: looks like all the enums are first
2014-08-08T22:10:02Z jasom: but there are similar entries for classes, including parent class and methods and fields
2014-08-08T22:10:20Z jasom: and the c name of the function to construct it
2014-08-08T22:10:50Z oGMo: sure
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2014-08-08T22:11:11Z jasom: that would make it quite tractible
2014-08-08T22:11:46Z jasom: 24k lines just for GTK; (doesn't include dependency libraries like glib and gdk) so it would still be fairly big
2014-08-08T22:12:00Z jasom: and you'd have to decide how to name the methods in a lispy manner
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2014-08-08T22:14:14Z jasom: foil just generates a defun for every single possible method you could invoke on a class.  so you end up with N methods for any method that is inherited by N classes
2014-08-08T22:14:19Z jasom: hence the huge number of defuns
2014-08-08T22:16:00Z jasom: but due to c# having static-polymorphism as well as dynamic, it makes things easier; you don't need to worry if a function is virtual or not.
2014-08-08T22:17:09Z oGMo: heh
2014-08-08T22:19:10Z oGMo: that's why i added the "plus-c" stuff actually, generating clutter bindings was taking forever and a year, but if you don't generate accessors or functions it's quite a bit faster .. if you have gtk/glib "methods" you could generate the calls on demand based on name etc instead of trying to defun them all
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2014-08-08T22:20:08Z oGMo: like (g 'class object 'method &rest args)
2014-08-08T22:20:47Z oGMo: or similar if you make a fancy block with some macrolet you can make it as easy as (object 'method ...)
2014-08-08T22:21:30Z oGMo: (that is, plus-c doesn't do this, it does similar with structs, ubt you could do similar with glib stuff)
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2014-08-08T22:26:33Z stacksmith: Can someone help me understand class instance initialization problem I'm running into?
2014-08-08T22:27:45Z jasom: stacksmith: I don't know, can you describe the problem?
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2014-08-08T22:30:06Z stacksmith: I have a defclass with a slot called "pos" to keep track of an x-y coordinate pair.  (defclass ship ()   ((pos      :initform '#(400 400) :initarg :pos  :accessor pos-of)...  The contents of pos get modified.  When I restart my program, even if ship is set to nil, the value of pos is not reset to 400,400...
2014-08-08T22:31:03Z stacksmith: It appears that the vector pos is referring to is somehow persistent, surviving the creation and destruction of the ship object.
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2014-08-08T22:31:58Z jasom: stacksmith: that's because #(400 400) creates a literal vector
2014-08-08T22:32:53Z stacksmith: I figured that.  I was assuming that the literal will get gc'd and a new one would be created.  Am I totally wrong?
2014-08-08T22:33:11Z jasom: stacksmith: no because the class still has a reference to it.
2014-08-08T22:33:46Z jasom: stacksmith: think of this (defvar *foo* (make-array 2 :initial-contents (400 400)) (defclass ship () ((pos :initform *foo) ...))
2014-08-08T22:33:48Z stacksmith: Ah.  What's the proper way to initialize instances then? (I am assuming that the way I do it all instances will share the literal to add insult to injury)
2014-08-08T22:34:29Z jasom: stacksmith: make-array should do the right thing.
2014-08-08T22:34:58Z stacksmith: Is it ok to stick make-array into :initform?
2014-08-08T22:35:03Z jasom: stacksmith: yup
2014-08-08T22:35:08Z jasom: stacksmith: any form you want can go in :initform
2014-08-08T22:35:17Z stacksmith: Thanks.
2014-08-08T22:35:40Z jasom: it doesn't get evaluated until you create an object of tha class
2014-08-08T22:36:01Z jasom: and you don't need to quote the initform, btw.
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2014-08-08T22:36:27Z jasom: so :initform (make-array 2 :initial-contents (400 400))
2014-08-08T22:36:41Z Xach: you do have to quote or otherwise prepare the initial contents
2014-08-08T22:36:43Z stacksmith: I was getting desperate with the quote.
2014-08-08T22:36:48Z jasom: um you do need to quote the initial contents so rather :initform (make-array 2 :initial-contents (400 400))
2014-08-08T22:36:52Z jasom: aksjdlkfajdsj
2014-08-08T22:36:55Z jasom: um you do need to quote the initial contents so rather :initform (make-array 2 :initial-contents '(400 400))
2014-08-08T22:37:30Z jasom: I hate whoever decided that scroll-wheel and middle-click should be in the same button
2014-08-08T22:37:42Z stacksmith: would `#(400 400)  work the same as make-array?
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2014-08-08T22:38:00Z Xach: no
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2014-08-08T22:38:10Z jasom: stacksmith: it would be close I think
2014-08-08T22:38:25Z stacksmith: Ech. Just when I thought I was beginning to grok it.
2014-08-08T22:38:26Z Xach: (vector 400 400)
2014-08-08T22:38:28Z jasom: something equivalent to (apply #'vector `(400 400))
2014-08-08T22:39:12Z jasom forgets that vector exists; I often want to dictate the element type and vector doesn't let you do that
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2014-08-08T22:40:10Z Xach: for me it is usually octet vectors. so i have written octet-vector makers 9000 times
2014-08-08T22:40:36Z stacksmith: OK, so is there is no ` shortcut that creates a vector directly?
2014-08-08T22:40:52Z Xach: stacksmith: ` is not a substitute for the list or vector functions
2014-08-08T22:41:24Z jasom: stacksmith: the important thing to note is that #(400 400) gets turned into a vector at read-time; vectors are also self-evaluating, so your init form of #(400 400) will always evaluate to the same vector that was created by the reader
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2014-08-08T22:43:09Z jasom: stacksmith: things are more complicated if you are compiling and loading, etc. but it's still essentially the same idea.  (vector 400 400) gets read in as a list, and lists are not self-evaluating, they are rather evaluated as function/macro calls so it reads in as a form that will make a new vector each time it is evaluated
2014-08-08T22:43:37Z |3b|: that reminds me, i meant to file a bug on sbcl's new `# behavior
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2014-08-08T22:44:13Z stacksmith: I really missed the boat on this.  So let me get this straight, the reason there is only one #(400 400) is because it is in the defclass, or is there literally only one #(400 400) as far as the reader is concerned, anywhere during a session?
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2014-08-08T22:44:39Z |3b|: the reader sees #( and creates a vector
2014-08-08T22:44:46Z |3b|: that vector is included in the code that is compiled
2014-08-08T22:45:23Z stacksmith: So every time I make-instance, it uses that same vector...
2014-08-08T22:45:28Z |3b| doesn't remember if it is allowed to be shared with other instances of #(400 400) in the source, but it might be
2014-08-08T22:45:29Z |3b|: right
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2014-08-08T22:45:40Z |3b|: well, every time you call the code with that vector compiled into it
2014-08-08T22:45:56Z stacksmith: OK, thanks.  Got to run, really appreciate your help.
2014-08-08T22:46:18Z |3b|: generally consider anything returned by ` or #() or ' to be constant that you shouldn't modify
2014-08-08T22:46:21Z jasom: stacksmith: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143347  look at that
2014-08-08T22:46:41Z |3b|: use LIST, VECTOR, MAKE-ARRAY, etc if you want something modifiable
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2014-08-08T22:48:28Z jasom: defclass just takes a form to evaluate when a new instance is made; since #(400 400) is an actual instance of a vector, you end up with all instances pointing to the same vector
2014-08-08T22:49:06Z jasom: and the only reason (eval #(400 400)) works at all is that a vector is defined to evaluate to itself (similar to a number)
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2014-08-08T22:50:18Z jasom: |3b|: I think that `#(...) is safe to be modifiable, since the spec says it should generate code with the same effect as (apply #'vector `(...))
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2014-08-08T22:50:51Z |3b|: yeah, there are a few cases where ` might be OK, but safer to not rely on it
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2014-08-08T22:52:04Z jasom: |3b|: ah I missed this part "The constructed copy of the template might or might not share list structure with the template itself."
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2014-08-08T22:54:50Z jasom: over an hour on the compilation of the file now.  I'll try splitting it up into something like 100 classes per file or something later.
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2014-08-08T22:55:25Z Ralt_: jasom: didn't it take 4 minutes with sbcl? it's weird that ccl takes so long
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2014-08-08T22:58:13Z jasom: Ralt_: I'm guessing it's an N^2 behavior in ccl; if each defun or whatever requires time linear to the number of defuns in the current file, then it would explain it.
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2014-08-08T22:58:31Z jasom: Ralt_: especially since it hit 3/4 of the way done after about 20 minutes
2014-08-08T22:59:04Z Xach: zeno's compilerdox
2014-08-08T22:59:45Z jasom: ecl generated C code almost instantaneously..gcc has been running 3 minutes now.
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2014-08-08T23:01:02Z jasom: oh, I was rong about ECL, it just hadn't reached the really big file yet
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2014-08-08T23:01:58Z jasom: only 7 more lines of dots for ccl though
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2014-08-08T23:04:25Z jasom: ecl generated C code almost as fast as sbcl generated binary code
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2014-08-09T00:11:18Z stacksmith: Thanks for helping me out with instance initialization from init-form an hour or so ago.  While on the subject, does this apply to all literals (not just arrays)?  For instance, if I use init-form for a scalar variable with a literal integer, do all instances share the integer?
2014-08-09T00:11:36Z stacksmith: I meant initform, sorry.
2014-08-09T00:11:55Z |3b|: integers don't have identity, so can't be shared
2014-08-09T00:11:55Z stacksmith: :initform, really.
2014-08-09T00:12:35Z stacksmith: Do all numeric types lack identity?
2014-08-09T00:12:39Z |3b|: it does apply to strings though
2014-08-09T00:13:02Z stacksmith: Makes sense with strings, as they are vectors I guess.
2014-08-09T00:13:09Z |3b|: not sure... complex numbers might have identity, i'd have to check the spec
2014-08-09T00:13:19Z stacksmith: What about the really large integers?
2014-08-09T00:13:20Z |3b|: clhs eq
2014-08-09T00:13:20Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq.htm
2014-08-09T00:14:04Z Zhivago: It's more that they are identities -- what they have are unstable object identities.
2014-08-09T00:14:23Z Zhivago: Just use EQL for identity and your problems disappear.
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2014-08-09T00:15:28Z stacksmith: I am more concerned about instance initialization.  When a defclass slot specifications have an :initform, some things will be referred to and therefore shared, but others won't...
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2014-08-09T00:16:44Z Xach: You can fine-tune instance initialization by adding methods to initialize-instance.
2014-08-09T00:16:58Z Xach: for when :initform and :default-initargs does not do what you need
2014-08-09T00:17:52Z |3b|: i guess you can't modify the contents of an complex, so you can't tell either way
2014-08-09T00:18:08Z |3b|: aside from EQ isn't specified to work on them
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2014-08-09T00:18:41Z |3b|: stacksmith: none of this is specific to :initform though, it applies just as much if you return it from a function, etc
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2014-08-09T00:19:17Z |3b|: (defun foo () (list #(1 2 3))) will return a new list every time, but those lists will all contain the same vector
2014-08-09T00:19:22Z stacksmith: , I got bitten trying to do that.  My ship class had an initialize-instance :after, resetting the position of the ship, but it in the initialize-instance using the same stupid literal array, which of course failed...
2014-08-09T00:19:33Z Zhivago: Think of EQ as a verison of EQL that only handles symbols and objects.
2014-08-09T00:20:20Z |3b|: Zhivago: we're mostly talking about literals, rather than EQ/EQL
2014-08-09T00:20:21Z pjb: jasom: use those mice: http://h30094.www3.hp.com/product/sku/2545791  I ordered half a dozen of them a few years ago, and only use them.
2014-08-09T00:20:33Z stacksmith: |3b|, that makes sense, (list #(1 2 3)) is a list containing the same literal array...
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2014-08-09T00:21:12Z Zhivago: Is that really a 'will' or 'may'?
2014-08-09T00:22:32Z |3b| would expect 'will', though i meant that calling (foo) would return a list with the same vector if that wasn't clear
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2014-08-09T00:23:53Z stacksmith: What I am confused about is why integers aren't 'boxed' the same way.  Is there something in the spec about what types of literals are not going to be shared?
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2014-08-09T00:24:07Z pjb: jasom: you could slime connect to that compiling ccl instance, and live-patch the compiler to use a O(n) or O(log n) algorithm instead of O(n^2).  You should be able to find the bad data structure easily enough.
2014-08-09T00:24:28Z |3b|: stacksmith: one way to think about it is that it only matters for things with contents you can modify
2014-08-09T00:24:54Z |3b|: the operations on numbers just return new numbers, they don't change the ones they operate on
2014-08-09T00:25:26Z pjb: stacksmith: :initform takes a form that will be evaluated at initialization time. So as long as this form returns a new object, you will have a new object for each instance.
2014-08-09T00:25:42Z pjb: :initform (vector 400 400) instead of :initform #(400 400).
2014-08-09T00:25:52Z stacksmith: <|3b|>, that is sensible.
2014-08-09T00:25:56Z |3b|: while (setf (aref x 1)) changes some of the contents of X while leaving the object intact
2014-08-09T00:26:14Z |3b|: (assuming modification to make it a valid setf call)
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2014-08-09T00:27:24Z pjb: stacksmith: integers can be boxed, it depends on the implementation, some do it.
2014-08-09T00:28:05Z stacksmith: Is it safe to say that any object that contains pointers as opposed to a simple value?
2014-08-09T00:28:11Z Zhivago: I'm pretty sure that #(1 2 3) is permitted to return a fresh vector each time, if it wants to. Do you know where the constraint for the same vector each time is?
2014-08-09T00:28:29Z Zhivago: stacksmith: The critical point is mutability.
2014-08-09T00:28:49Z pjb: Zhivago: definitely not.
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2014-08-09T00:29:19Z Zhivago: stacksmith: Mutable objects need to be referred to indirectly; immutable objects can be referred to directly, since you can copy them without affecting semantics.
2014-08-09T00:29:47Z Zhivago: stacksmith: Generally that makes sense for small immutable objects, like integers.
2014-08-09T00:30:01Z pjb: Compare the result of reading and evaluating: '(pathname "P") vs. '#(1 2 3) ; this is backed by the specification.
2014-08-09T00:30:49Z Zhivago: Yeah, where is it backed?
2014-08-09T00:32:02Z pjb: By the reading / evaluation dichotomy!
2014-08-09T00:32:45Z |3b|: Zhivago: hmm, can't see it described explicitly
2014-08-09T00:32:48Z pjb: #( is not specified to read as a vector creation form, 2.4.8.3 Sharpsign Left-Parenthesis says: #( ) "notate" a simple vector, not a form to return a simple vector.
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2014-08-09T00:33:19Z |3b|: yeah, that is the closest i could find
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2014-08-09T00:33:58Z |3b|: and i'm not sure it is practical for a reader macro to distinguish between cases where it would be evaluated or not, so returning anything else doesn't seem practical
2014-08-09T00:34:06Z Zhivago: Yeah, that's why I understood it as 'may' rather than 'will'.
2014-08-09T00:34:41Z pjb: Zhivago: '#(1 2 3) would break.
2014-08-09T00:34:50Z Zhivago: That's a fair point.
2014-08-09T00:34:53Z |3b|: for example reader can't tell if (foo #(1 2 3)) will evaluate the form or not
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2014-08-09T05:00:45Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-08-09T05:47:23Z Guthur: afternoon beach
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2014-08-09T06:17:21Z beach: Any advice on which one of Andy Appel's compiler books to get?
2014-08-09T06:17:57Z Bike: i have "modern compiler implementation in ML" and i don't think it'd be of much interest to you.
2014-08-09T06:18:13Z beach: Bike: Oh, interesting.  Why?
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2014-08-09T06:20:21Z Bike: it's probably undergraduate level? like, i'm pretty sure you already know most of it.
2014-08-09T06:20:37Z beach: Hmm, yeah, from the table of contents, it looks like I already have the information on most topics.
2014-08-09T06:21:50Z beach: Am I seeing this right that all three books have the same table of contents?
2014-08-09T06:22:45Z Bike: I think the "Modern Compiler Implementation in X" books are just the same with a different toolset.
2014-08-09T06:23:08Z beach: OK, that was my impression as well.  Thanks.
2014-08-09T06:23:28Z Bike: Compiling with Continuations and Program Logics for Certified Compilers are gonna be different, obviously, but i don't know about them
2014-08-09T06:23:58Z beach: Right.
2014-08-09T06:24:40Z ggole: I have that too, it's a fine introductory text.
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2014-08-09T06:46:41Z beach: I wrote this function in SBCL http://paste.lisp.org/+32LW and compiled it with (speed 3) (safety 3).  If I read the disassembly right, it is executing the form (the fixnum (car x)) twice.
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2014-08-09T06:47:16Z beach: Why would that be?
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2014-08-09T06:48:42Z Bike: no cse? thread (non)safety?
2014-08-09T06:50:01Z beach: Bike: I have had this discussion with stassats before.  He thinks it would not be thread safe (because some other thread might change the CAR), but I think it *is* thread safe because there is not test that can confirm that this thread is not just very fast.
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2014-08-09T06:50:57Z beach: Bike: And yes, no CSE would be another explanation.  But I would assume that SBCL does have CSE, no?
2014-08-09T06:51:14Z Bike: maybe not in every possible case.
2014-08-09T06:51:21Z Bike: i guess saying "no CSE" is just restating the observation, though
2014-08-09T06:51:31Z beach: OK, I see.
2014-08-09T06:51:49Z beach: Well, the reason for not doing CSE here might be that it is assumed not to be thread safe.
2014-08-09T06:52:58Z Bike: i can't read sbcl disassemblies well enough, what part looks like two car forms?
2014-08-09T06:53:02Z Bike: calls
2014-08-09T06:53:20Z Bike: having three fixnum error traps is something.
2014-08-09T06:53:49Z beach: Gah, I removed the window.  I think it was mov RBX, [RDX - 7] and mov RAX, [RDX - 7]
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2014-08-09T06:53:59Z beach: and then the test for fixnum, yes.
2014-08-09T06:54:17Z beach: TEST BL, 1 and TEST AL, 1
2014-08-09T06:54:26Z beach: [from memory]
2014-08-09T06:54:51Z Bike: registers are opposite here, but yeah i see.
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2014-08-09T06:56:10Z Bike: hm, for a second i thought it would be getting confused because of the error reporting, but it still does the movs with zero safety. i sure love second guessing compilers
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2014-08-09T06:57:39Z beach: Bike: Thanks!  It looks like I might have some interesting optimization opportunities in SICL that don't exist in SBCL.
2014-08-09T06:57:49Z beach: Now, I have to program it, of course :)
2014-08-09T06:57:55Z Bike: full employment theorem, you know?
2014-08-09T06:58:20Z beach: Yeah.
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2014-08-09T06:59:06Z Bike: it would be nice if sicl also had a more comprehensible compiler, but that never seems to be a design goal for implementations
2014-08-09T07:00:12Z beach: I am working on it.  That's why I created Cleavir as an implementation-independent compiler toolset.
2014-08-09T07:00:28Z ggole: CSE involving mutable objects isn't as straightforward as other cases
2014-08-09T07:00:40Z ggole: That might be part of the reason
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2014-08-09T07:01:04Z beach: ggole: Exactly.  If the functions MAX and > had been some arbitrary user-defined functions, the optimization would not have been possible.
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2014-08-09T07:01:31Z beach: ... because then those functions could have modified the CAR of the CONS cell.
2014-08-09T07:01:33Z Bike: sbcl's smart enough to know max and > don't mutate, though
2014-08-09T07:01:47Z Bike: maybe it doesn't know that the car isn't changed inbetween, somehow
2014-08-09T07:01:49Z beach: Bike: Yes, hence my experiment.
2014-08-09T07:01:55Z kristof: Cleavir, SICL, waiting on Nife and Hatchet
2014-08-09T07:02:22Z beach: kristof: slyrus suggested Hamr! :)
2014-08-09T07:02:27Z Bike: main problem with "SICL" is that i've actually used a sickle and it's pretty inconvenient :p
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2014-08-09T07:02:50Z beach: Bike: Hmm, yes, I see :)
2014-08-09T07:02:50Z kristof: I imagine most old farming tools are a pain to use.
2014-08-09T07:03:00Z kristof: I, for one, think SICL is a very slick name
2014-08-09T07:03:57Z beach: kristof: Thanks! :)
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2014-08-09T07:08:44Z beach: So the kind of optimization I am thinking of is this: Multiple memory accesses to the same address can be merged, provided that there are no calls to arbitrary functions and no back arcs in the flow graph in between the accesses.
2014-08-09T07:10:12Z kristof: Is there a giant list of compiler optimizing tricks somewhere?
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2014-08-09T07:10:14Z kristof: There must be.
2014-08-09T07:10:21Z beach: Oh yes.
2014-08-09T07:10:37Z beach: Muchnick's book (and Any Appel's too) has a list.
2014-08-09T07:10:48Z kristof: beach: These days I think it's smarter to target a common compiler infrastructure like LLVM than to work with machine code generation yourself
2014-08-09T07:11:21Z kristof: Not only because it's easier but because every compiler using that infrastructure can benefit when a person discovers an optimization. Or something like that.
2014-08-09T07:11:35Z Bike: i have this cute sorta pdf that's just a list of before/after compiler transformations from the 80s
2014-08-09T07:11:54Z Bike: beach: you could be cleverer about "arbitrary functions", maybe?
2014-08-09T07:12:58Z beach: Bike: Yes, "arbitrary" was a shorthand.  It remains to be defined exactly in which cases the optimization is possible.
2014-08-09T07:13:03Z Bike: mm
2014-08-09T07:13:13Z Bike: could do like gcc and have a billion custom declarations
2014-08-09T07:13:28Z beach: Bike: Aww, that would be no fun.
2014-08-09T07:13:47Z Bike: and then have the declarations get inferred. sometimes. maybe.
2014-08-09T07:14:01Z beach: kristof: You are right.  Cleavir is meant to become exactly that LLVM-like infrastructure.
2014-08-09T07:14:29Z beach: Bike: Sure, that's a possibility.
2014-08-09T07:14:54Z beach: Bike: But I want to start by checking whether it is possible to do it automatically in many cases.
2014-08-09T07:17:13Z beach: kristof: But maybe you meant that I shouldn't attempt to write it myself?  However, using LLVM would not be consistent with my objectives.
2014-08-09T07:19:35Z kristof: beach: I think you explained what Cleavir is before, but I forget.
2014-08-09T07:19:57Z beach: kristof: An LLVM-like infrastructure :)
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2014-08-09T07:20:38Z kristof: beach: What's the use-case?
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2014-08-09T07:20:52Z beach: For Cleavir?  Writing CL compilers.
2014-08-09T07:21:16Z ggole: beach: you have to be careful about aliasing too
2014-08-09T07:21:28Z beach: ggole: Yes, of course.
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2014-08-09T07:22:08Z beach: ggole: But as long as there are no calls to "arbitrary" functions and no back arcs, I think I should be fine.  No?
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2014-08-09T07:23:17Z ggole: You could handle backward edges as well too so long as you do the relevant dominance check, I think
2014-08-09T07:23:37Z beach: The back arc restriction is for busy waiting: (loop while (car x))
2014-08-09T07:23:45Z ggole: Oh, I see
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2014-08-09T07:24:35Z beach: I need to come up with exact conditions to determine when the optimization is possible, of course.
2014-08-09T07:24:53Z beach: But I thought I would first figure out whether it's worthwhile to even consider.
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2014-08-09T07:28:38Z beach: kristof: One of my objectives is to use only CL, and using LLVM (for instance) is incompatible with that objective.
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2014-08-09T09:11:21Z beach: Hmm, so (global) common subexpression elimination and (global) value numbering might not be desirable to eliminate simple arithmetic operations, because they increase the number of live values so might cause spill.  But they would always be desirable to avoid multiple memory accesses when semantics allow it.
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2014-08-09T09:21:15Z ggole: A spill isn't necessarily better than a redundant load.
2014-08-09T09:21:57Z beach: Right.  A spill is a store AND a load.
2014-08-09T09:22:10Z ggole: More than one, possibly.
2014-08-09T09:22:18Z beach: Sure.
2014-08-09T09:22:21Z ggole: But GVN and friends are usually profitable, so everybody does them.
2014-08-09T09:22:39Z beach: I am thinking that this used to be the case, and it may no longer be.
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2014-08-09T09:23:28Z beach: In *so* many cases I see people do things out of habit rather than questioning why it is done and if it is still the right thing to do.
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2014-08-09T09:24:01Z beach: I am not saying I am sure it is not longer profitable.  I am just saying that it should be investigated.
2014-08-09T09:24:07Z beach: s/not/no/
2014-08-09T09:25:21Z ggole: All the literature (that I can think of) reports finding many opportunities for numbering
2014-08-09T09:25:39Z ggole: Guess it depends how much you trust other people's results
2014-08-09T09:26:15Z beach: I don't doubt that there are many opportunities.  I am questioning the relative cost of acting upon them.  It may have changed over time.
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2014-08-09T09:27:12Z beach: Though, come to think of it, whether there are many opportunities should be investigated as well.
2014-08-09T09:28:28Z beach: I am thinking such opportunities result from inlining rather than from what programmers actually write.  I may be wrong of course.
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2014-08-09T09:29:58Z ggole: There are type tests, address calculations, etc as well
2014-08-09T09:30:23Z beach: Yes, of course.  You are right.
2014-08-09T09:31:44Z ggole: Doing some work to justify a complex pass is not really a bad idea though.
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2014-08-09T09:33:29Z beach: ggole: What do you mean?
2014-08-09T09:33:51Z beach: Oh, you mean the work of investigating it?
2014-08-09T09:33:55Z ggole: Yeah
2014-08-09T09:34:23Z beach: Yes, that's what I am thinking.  Like I said, I see so many cases where things are done out of habit.
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2014-08-09T09:37:16Z beach: The other think I am planning to do is to follow the example of the Multics OS and put in "meters" in the system (where the cost is not too great) so that statistics can be gathered.  Counting the number of CSE and GVN opportunities as well as estimating spill cost would be an example of such statistics.
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2014-08-09T09:42:09Z ggole nods
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2014-08-09T11:30:21Z elderK: Hey peeps. Anyone here use SlimV?
2014-08-09T11:30:56Z beach: elderK: Some do.  Not me though.
2014-08-09T11:31:32Z elderK: Im trying to solve some issues i'm having with it.
2014-08-09T11:31:39Z elderK: So I really need to find a way to get in touch with those that do use it.
2014-08-09T11:31:40Z elderK: :(
2014-08-09T11:31:53Z beach: elderK: State the issue and someone might answer.
2014-08-09T11:32:00Z elderK: Okay, well.
2014-08-09T11:32:11Z elderK: 1) It takes a really long time for SlimV to get past "Getting info from sWANK Server"
2014-08-09T11:32:21Z elderK: 2) Whenever I enter code that has a syntax error in it, the SWANK server closes.
2014-08-09T11:32:35Z elderK: 3) Then SlimV has to reload the swank server, etc, all over again. and it takes AGES
2014-08-09T11:32:47Z elderK: I've tried with CLISP, ECL and am about to test with SBCL
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2014-08-09T11:33:49Z elderK: It's really aggrivating.
2014-08-09T11:33:57Z elderK: I know I'm fighting an uphill battle as it were, using Vim for Lispin'
2014-08-09T11:36:16Z beach: elderK: If nobody answers right away, you might want to check the logs later.  Some people read the logs and answer when they have time.
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2014-08-09T11:36:47Z elderK: Sweet, thanks beach!
2014-08-09T11:37:24Z beach: elderK: Are you still in Dunedin?
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2014-08-09T11:37:40Z elderK: Wow? You remember?
2014-08-09T11:37:42Z elderK: No.
2014-08-09T11:37:44Z elderK: These days I'm in Auckland.
2014-08-09T11:37:58Z elderK: I've spent the past few years jumping all around New Zealand.
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2014-08-09T11:38:04Z beach: Not a bad idea.
2014-08-09T11:38:31Z elderK: :P Does my whois say dunedin?
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2014-08-09T11:38:49Z beach: I don't know.  Didn't check.
2014-08-09T11:39:23Z beach: No, it says nothing of the sort.
2014-08-09T11:39:39Z elderK: Where abouts are you, beach?
2014-08-09T11:40:00Z beach: Bordeaux.
2014-08-09T11:40:07Z elderK: Wow! France?
2014-08-09T11:41:20Z beach: Yeah.  They even stopped sinking ships in your country.
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2014-08-09T11:41:59Z elderK: :P Zwa?
2014-08-09T11:42:26Z beach: I am talking about the Rainbow Warrier.
2014-08-09T11:42:52Z beach: Maybe you don't remember.
2014-08-09T11:42:53Z elderK: :P Ah, yes.
2014-08-09T11:42:58Z elderK: I studied that event in high-school.
2014-08-09T11:43:00Z elderK: :P
2014-08-09T11:43:17Z elderK: I wasn't alive then or at least, wasn't aware :P
2014-08-09T11:45:16Z beach: July 10 1985, Wikipedia says.
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2014-08-09T11:47:01Z beach: elderK: Do you use Lisp in your work?
2014-08-09T11:48:32Z elderK: I wish!
2014-08-09T11:48:36Z elderK: We use C++.
2014-08-09T11:48:48Z elderK: And malformed XML using custom, badly written, XML parsers.
2014-08-09T11:48:49Z elderK: :/
2014-08-09T11:49:03Z elderK: I work at a new place since the last time we spoke, perhaps.
2014-08-09T11:49:08Z elderK: :) Moved to Aucklandf or it.
2014-08-09T11:49:09Z elderK: vs. Christchurch
2014-08-09T11:49:17Z beach: Probably so, yes.
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2014-08-09T11:49:59Z beach: That was November 22, 2008.
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2014-08-09T11:52:24Z elderK: ~holy shit
2014-08-09T11:52:25Z elderK: wow
2014-08-09T11:52:26Z elderK: that long ago?
2014-08-09T11:52:28Z elderK: My God
2014-08-09T11:52:30Z elderK: I didn't even have a JOB then
2014-08-09T11:52:32Z elderK: Wow.
2014-08-09T11:52:35Z elderK: That's a LONG time ago!
2014-08-09T11:54:13Z beach: If you use C++, you might consider using the CL system drmeister is developing.  It is said to make it easy to access C++ stuff from Lisp.
2014-08-09T11:55:00Z elderK: I'm all ears.
2014-08-09T11:55:01Z elderK: :)
2014-08-09T11:55:10Z elderK: As for ECL issues with Swank,
2014-08-09T11:55:25Z elderK: it seems that whatever it's doing to execute CL code, is being done ins ome kind of initialization context.
2014-08-09T11:55:28Z elderK: which is why if you enter junk,
2014-08-09T11:55:29Z elderK: it dies out.
2014-08-09T11:55:36Z elderK: CLISP's slimv SWANK thing just kills CLISP
2014-08-09T11:55:38Z elderK: crashes, segfault.
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2014-08-09T11:58:52Z elderK: *sigh*
2014-08-09T11:59:09Z beach: elderK: Oh, I meant to tell you the other day when you asked about private properties in CLOS: You use the package system for that.
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2014-08-09T11:59:26Z beach: Names of private slots will be unexported symbols in the implementation package.
2014-08-09T11:59:43Z elderK: beach: You mean you just dont export the accessor functions for them?
2014-08-09T11:59:58Z beach: elderK: Sort of...
2014-08-09T12:00:13Z beach: elderK: You don't export the NAMES of the slots nor the accessor functions.
2014-08-09T12:00:26Z beach: packages are all about symbols, i.e. names.
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2014-08-09T12:02:21Z beach: In addition, you typically don't export any slot names, thus "forcing" client code to use protocol functions you want it to.
2014-08-09T12:02:46Z beach: It follows that you must give a different name to the slot and to the accessor.
2014-08-09T12:04:05Z beach: The way I prefer to do it is that I prefix the slot name with `%', so I might have a slot like this: (%name :initarg :name :reader name)
2014-08-09T12:04:27Z beach: The slot name is basically never used after that.  Only the accessor.
2014-08-09T12:05:36Z beach: So I export the symbol NAME, but not the symbol %NAME.
2014-08-09T12:05:41Z beach: Some people prefer: (name :initarg :name :reader name-of).  Then they export the symbol NAME-OF but not the symbol NAME.
2014-08-09T12:06:04Z beach: But I don't like that technique much.
2014-08-09T12:08:07Z beach: Some style guides suggest prefixing the accessor with the name of the class, like (defclass person ((name :initarg :name :reader person-name)))
2014-08-09T12:08:23Z beach: But that gets really weird in the presence of inheritance.
2014-08-09T12:09:11Z Xach: I strongly prefer to come up with a natural set of names as a bunch of defgenerics, then write classes to support them, rather than having the names related to the fact that a function in the protocol is a slot accessor for a particular classs.
2014-08-09T12:09:41Z beach: Like in CLIM, if you want the parent of a gadget you do (sheet-parent gadget), so you have to remember that the PARENT accessor was introduced in the class ancestor class SHEET.
2014-08-09T12:10:06Z Xach: The last time I wanted to obscure the slot name to avoid direct access, I think I used a % prefix
2014-08-09T12:10:13Z Xach: It's been a while, though.
2014-08-09T12:11:23Z beach: Xach: I definitely agree that the slots should not be involved when the protocol is designed.
2014-08-09T12:11:39Z beach: I am sorry if I gave the opposite impression.
2014-08-09T12:12:35Z Xach: beach: I think names like FOO-OF or CLASS-BAR are counterproductive to that strategy - I think it is clear you do not prefer them. Me neither, and protocols are why.
2014-08-09T12:12:48Z beach: Yep.
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2014-08-09T12:13:45Z beach thinks that by now, elderK must have fainted or fallen asleep.
2014-08-09T12:15:16Z beach vanishes in order to go contemplate various compiler optimizations.
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2014-08-09T12:31:40Z elderK: beach: I like the way you do it
2014-08-09T12:31:43Z elderK: and it's the way I'd do it too
2014-08-09T12:31:50Z elderK: only access slots via their accessors
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2014-08-09T12:32:26Z elderK: haev fun beach :)
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2014-08-09T13:05:43Z elderK: beach: SBCL works fine with slimv, like, really, really, really awesomely!
2014-08-09T13:05:48Z elderK: :O:D
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2014-08-09T13:31:06Z beach: elderK: Great!
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2014-08-09T14:02:01Z AeroNotix: so I'm trying to use gtk+webview but I keep getting memory faults when I open and close the window
2014-08-09T14:02:19Z AeroNotix: If someone is familiar then the code is at github.com/AeroNotix/lispkit
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2014-08-09T14:07:37Z PuercoPop: AeroNotix: if your goal is to make/play-with a browser/GUI I think mmontone's cl-xul bindings are better maintained than the webkit bindings.
2014-08-09T14:08:27Z AeroNotix: PuercoPop: awesome, I'll check it out
2014-08-09T14:08:38Z AeroNotix: the project goal is to have a browser which is as customizable as emacs
2014-08-09T14:09:21Z AeroNotix: Unhandled memory fault at #xBBADBEEF.
2014-08-09T14:09:26Z AeroNotix: I literally get this
2014-08-09T14:09:38Z AeroNotix: so I assume that badbeef is some sentinal marker someone put somewhere :)
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2014-08-09T14:10:25Z PuercoPop: cl-xul seems appropiate then, conkeror is built on xulrunner as well
2014-08-09T14:12:04Z AeroNotix: PuercoPop: I was using conkeror but the javascript really put me off
2014-08-09T14:12:36Z AeroNotix: PuercoPop: installing cl-xul
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2014-08-09T14:16:53Z PuercoPop: I've played with it with NP
2014-08-09T14:17:33Z AeroNotix: PuercoPop: is there a browser widget with it?
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2014-08-09T14:19:34Z PuercoPop: yeah: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Tech/XUL/browser
2014-08-09T14:19:50Z AeroNotix: PuercoPop: I saw that...
2014-08-09T14:20:31Z AeroNotix: gah fuck it
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2014-08-09T14:22:55Z PuercoPop: what happned?
2014-08-09T14:24:41Z AeroNotix: just trying to use lisp libraries, all in a various state of shit
2014-08-09T14:24:59Z AeroNotix: it's very frustrating
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2014-08-09T14:27:36Z PuercoPop: did you run into problems in running cl-xul? I had no issues setting it up that is why I recommeded it. Using cffi can be frustrating ime as well though.
2014-08-09T14:27:54Z AeroNotix: PuercoPop: XUL ran fine but the docs are non-existent
2014-08-09T14:29:33Z PuercoPop: the tests have a lot of examples
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2014-08-09T14:33:35Z AeroNotix: :(
2014-08-09T14:34:23Z PuercoPop: you can always document your ordeal and submit it as docs :D
2014-08-09T14:35:04Z AeroNotix: I wanted to that with gtk/webview really
2014-08-09T14:35:06Z Shinmera: or: write your own library and then too get too bored to write docs for it
2014-08-09T14:35:15Z AeroNotix: but these crashes are difficult to debug
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2014-08-09T14:45:34Z Guthur: foreign code is really painful to deal with
2014-08-09T14:45:54Z Guthur: often times it will just crash your lisp
2014-08-09T14:46:09Z Guthur: ...when things go wrong
2014-08-09T14:46:18Z Guthur: with minimal backtrace
2014-08-09T14:46:27Z Guthur: if you're lucky
2014-08-09T14:47:08Z quazimodo: hay hay
2014-08-09T14:47:20Z Guthur: the binding code need to be pretty robust and well maintain, or be so thin that's nothing more than a wrapper over the foreign API
2014-08-09T14:47:34Z Guthur: that's that it's
2014-08-09T14:47:43Z Guthur: umm s/that's/that it's
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2014-08-09T15:15:07Z AeroNotix: Guthur: any tips on debugging cffi code? Particularly memory issues?
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2014-08-09T15:16:19Z AeroNotix: Guthur: https://gist.github.com/37ac04e3e6db2b74a36b particularly this
2014-08-09T15:17:20Z AeroNotix: https://gist.github.com/AeroNotix/2fb758bdcb99a367fb00 here is the code
2014-08-09T15:17:38Z AeroNotix: I've narrowed it down to when  #'leave-gtk-main is called
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2014-08-09T15:17:52Z AeroNotix: I assume that #'leave-gtk-main cleans some kind of global state up
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2014-08-09T15:18:03Z AeroNotix: and that trying to run it again means that this state is no longer available?
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2014-08-09T15:22:25Z AeroNotix: I'll just remove that for now then
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2014-08-09T16:30:37Z elderK: Hey guys. Do you think writing a binding for the Firebird database client library would be too big of a task for a "first real CL" thing?
2014-08-09T16:30:41Z elderK: or rather, "first real CL project"?
2014-08-09T16:30:54Z elderK: I figure it'd be a good way to get running with CFFI and such
2014-08-09T16:30:57Z elderK: and could be useful, too,
2014-08-09T16:31:00Z elderK: for cl-dbi
2014-08-09T16:31:04Z elderK: as I could write a driver for it :)
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2014-08-09T16:40:39Z Guthur: elderK: imo a binding is probably not the best first project
2014-08-09T16:41:14Z Shinmera: I too would recommend choosing something pure-lisp first.
2014-08-09T16:41:29Z Guthur: you have to deal with too many foreign code issue which are to really anything to do with CL persay
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2014-08-09T16:41:44Z Guthur: plus a good binding should try to make the API lispy ontop of the foreign code
2014-08-09T16:41:59Z Guthur: with your first project you have no real idea what that is
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2014-08-09T16:43:13Z elderK: Aye.
2014-08-09T16:43:35Z PuercoPop: btw there are some bindings for firebird, although I know not about their completeness
2014-08-09T16:43:44Z elderK: :) I was thinking just a low-level straight translation. Then the next part would be making a really nice lispy level on top of that lower-level translation
2014-08-09T16:43:55Z elderK: PuercoPop: I shall look for them.
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2014-08-09T16:44:28Z PuercoPop: https://github.com/klimenko-serj/cl-fbclient
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2014-08-09T16:45:17Z Guthur: elderK: that lower level will generally have pain and difficulty, and you will just be learning how to deal with foreign code. Unfortunately that is probably the least fun thing to do with CL, and the usually pretty far from idomatic CL
2014-08-09T16:45:38Z elderK: Guthur: Agreed.
2014-08-09T16:46:27Z Guthur: it's a necessary evil sometimes
2014-08-09T16:46:45Z elderK: (on a randmo note: poor laptop. 98 degrees compiling Firefox :/)
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2014-08-09T16:47:27Z Guthur: I am writing foreign code bindings at the moment, so the pain is rather fresh in my mind
2014-08-09T16:47:56Z Guthur: the only real enjoyment is when you finally have that lispy top layer
2014-08-09T16:48:41Z elderK: aye. And knowing that when teh horrible low-level part is done, you can then enjoy working on the lispy part.
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2014-08-09T16:50:32Z Guthur: firebird does seem to have an ODBC driver, you could maybe build some tool ontop of it using that
2014-08-09T16:50:41Z Guthur is not familiar with firebird at all
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2014-08-09T16:51:08Z Guthur: there are some Database libraries for CL, some of which should support ODBC
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2014-08-09T16:51:52Z Guthur: that way you don't have to deal with foreign code directly but still get to build something on top of firebird, if that is your area of intereset
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2014-08-09T16:55:21Z elderK: I have no problem creating my own binding directly.
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2014-08-09T18:20:56Z paul0: my program says "is not of type VECTOR.", but I don't get exactly what is wrong with the code
2014-08-09T18:21:04Z paul0: any tips for reading CL error messages?
2014-08-09T18:21:25Z Xach: paul0: the problem is you have provided a non-vector when a vector is expected. what form produces the error?
2014-08-09T18:21:47Z paul0: I'm reading the lispweb book from leanpub
2014-08-09T18:22:05Z Xach: paul0: paste the code to paste.lisp.org if you like and maybe we can puzzle through it together
2014-08-09T18:22:07Z paul0: one moment
2014-08-09T18:23:31Z paul0: Xach, http://paste.lisp.org/display/143352
2014-08-09T18:23:51Z paul0: hum, I should paste the whole file instead, I guess
2014-08-09T18:24:34Z paul0: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143353
2014-08-09T18:24:38Z paul0: here is the full code
2014-08-09T18:24:40Z Xach: paul0: yeah, it seems like it may require a lot of context to reproduce the problem. maybe too much.
2014-08-09T18:24:40Z Bike: i don't suppose the backtrace tells you what call you're in when the error fires
2014-08-09T18:25:21Z paul0: Bike, still learning how to read the backtrace, in this case I couldn't figure out what is the problem
2014-08-09T18:25:35Z Bike: paste the backtrace too, then
2014-08-09T18:25:40Z paul0: I can run car, cdr and dolist on the (games) output
2014-08-09T18:26:47Z Bike: ok, so, (games) isn't a vector, is that the issue?
2014-08-09T18:26:49Z paul0: this is the backtrace, http://paste.lisp.org/display/143354
2014-08-09T18:27:28Z Xach: perfect
2014-08-09T18:27:39Z paul0: yes
2014-08-09T18:27:49Z paul0: but I can use dolist with it's output
2014-08-09T18:28:06Z paul0: (I think it is the dolist in the "/retro-games" that is causing this error)
2014-08-09T18:28:37Z Bike: okay, so, look at the backtrace. there's a bunch of impenetrable garbage but then at 14 it starts being something you can understand.
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2014-08-09T18:29:28Z paul0: Bike, found it
2014-08-09T18:29:47Z Bike: the problem is probably (url-encode (name game)), since the name of the game isn't a string
2014-08-09T18:30:06Z Bike: i don't know mongo, so i couldn't tell you why that is, but that should be the right track
2014-08-09T18:30:47Z paul0: I don't know mongo also, just trying to follow the book examples
2014-08-09T18:31:13Z paul0: it is a good book also, short, easy to read, but there is something wrong with the code after the mongdb persistence code
2014-08-09T18:31:46Z Bike: think of it as an exercise. after all, 90% of coding is debugging.
2014-08-09T18:31:51Z Xach: heh
2014-08-09T18:31:54Z paul0: true
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2014-08-09T18:34:07Z paul0: (dolist (game (games)) (princ (name game)))
2014-08-09T18:34:09Z paul0: this works
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2014-08-09T18:36:04Z paul0: ah, fixed
2014-08-09T18:38:21Z paul0: no, everything is broken
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2014-08-09T18:40:16Z paul0: hum, there is some garbage on the database, that is causing this problem
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2014-08-09T18:47:21Z paul0: Bike, Xach, the code was correct
2014-08-09T18:47:53Z paul0: there was some garbage on the database, that couldn't be interpreted on the current code
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2014-08-09T18:53:37Z Xach: phew
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2014-08-09T18:59:48Z pjb: paul0: didn't you learn in primary school that sentences start with an upper case letter?
2014-08-09T19:00:06Z pjb: paul0: the error message doesn't start at "is not of type".  It starts at "The value" !!!
2014-08-09T19:00:21Z pjb: This should give enough of a hint to know what you did wrong.
2014-08-09T19:00:31Z pjb: But you must learn how to read, and how to read error messages.
2014-08-09T19:00:58Z paul0: pjb, thanks for the helpful tip. Next tipe I will paste the full backtrace here :)
2014-08-09T19:01:46Z pjb: Not here, in lisppaste.
2014-08-09T19:02:26Z paul0: pjb, I was trying to give a short description here, since pasting more than one line is usually not good IRC etiquette
2014-08-09T19:02:27Z pjb: If there was really garbage in the database, it should be a remainder that any code doing I/O should validate its inputs, even from databases!
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2014-08-09T19:03:04Z pjb: Since the error was about a document value, you would just track where you pass such document values where a vector is expected.
2014-08-09T19:03:20Z paul0: pjb, what part of "I'm learning lisp" you don't get? Lisp backtrace isn't something that I am familiar with
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2014-08-09T19:03:33Z paul0: I am NOT familiar with
2014-08-09T19:03:43Z pjb: These are general programming skills.  Nothing specific to lisp.
2014-08-09T19:04:09Z pjb: Read the error messages, pass values of the right type, etc.
2014-08-09T19:04:19Z paul0: other languages just give me the line where the error ocurred, lisp don't
2014-08-09T19:04:26Z pjb: More or less.
2014-08-09T19:04:35Z paul0: it also gives me much more information, but I still don't know what is relevant
2014-08-09T19:04:45Z paul0: so, newcomers get confused
2014-08-09T19:05:21Z pjb: I don't know.  Backtrace in gdb or ldb give also a lot of irrelevant low level information…
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2014-08-09T19:06:31Z Xach: learning how to filter out the useful information from a potentially huge amount of useless but factual information is a helpful skill when working with pjb
2014-08-09T19:06:33Z pjb: But then, my first debugging tool was memory dumps on a stack of 132x60 printouts…
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2014-08-09T19:07:48Z pjb: and when working with CL implementations too, it seems.
2014-08-09T19:07:51Z paul0: pjb, ok, I work with ruby usually, it gives me less output, and the lines where the errors ocurred
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2014-08-09T19:08:48Z pjb: There are reasons why few lisp implementations try to give you line numbers.
2014-08-09T19:09:15Z paul0: maybe, I'm new to lisp, so I'm still figuring out how it works
2014-08-09T19:09:35Z PuercoPop: paul0: although the lines of error are tricky due to macro expasion, you can always use v to jump to the source related to the frame in trace slime gives you.
2014-08-09T19:09:39Z pjb: eg. the code could have been typed at the REPL, or added at run-time with eval or even (setf (fdefinition f) (generate-lambda-expression)) so no line number would even exist.
2014-08-09T19:09:56Z Xach: paul0: if i get stuck on something like that, I use C-u C-c C-c to compile the defun with the error, re-run, and use "v" to jump to the form with the problem.
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2014-08-09T19:10:31Z pjb: moving down the backtrace first to some function of yours.
2014-08-09T19:10:43Z paul0: PuercoPop, Xach, cool, I'll try to remember this "v" next time :)
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2014-08-09T19:12:38Z paul0: pjb, are you seriously expecting me to understand everything from the lisp environment when I am reading a book for learning the basics of lips programming for web?
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2014-08-09T19:13:29Z pjb: Who said that?  I'm saying that debugging is a generic skill.  Nothing specific to lisp.
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2014-08-09T19:15:25Z paul0: so, I can debug other languages I work with easily, lisp backtrace doesn't make sense to me yet
2014-08-09T19:17:20Z Bike: paul0: did you not understand how i isolated the call? (if that was the actual problem)
2014-08-09T19:18:11Z paul0: Bike, I fixed using the functions on the REPL until I could find the part that was causing the error
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2014-08-09T19:18:33Z Bike: so was the problem the name of a game not being a string, or what
2014-08-09T19:19:12Z paul0: Bike, wrong data on the database, I did something wrong while messing with the code that save some wrong data there
2014-08-09T19:19:23Z Bike: is that a yes or a no?
2014-08-09T19:19:28Z paul0: not sure how that happened, but fixed already
2014-08-09T19:19:46Z paul0: Bike, yes
2014-08-09T19:20:58Z paul0: since it was the wrong data, the doc->game function couldn't convert it correctly, and returned some garbage
2014-08-09T19:21:11Z Bike: ok, so if you didn't get how i found where the problem was without a line number - the last relevant call in the backtrace was urlencode, which was called from retro-games::retro-games, which was called from hunchentoot:handle-request, so you know it's gonna be a urlencode call in your main handler there.
2014-08-09T19:21:53Z paul0: I get it, also, string is a vector in lisp, right? That's what caused the error?
2014-08-09T19:23:00Z Bike: Yes, the error was that urlencode expects a string (a vector of characters, basically) and got some mongo thing instead.
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2014-08-09T19:24:03Z paul0: I want to do a little project this weekend, a feed reader with some kind of filter (like the bayesian filter pro PCL), to help me find most relevant news
2014-08-09T19:24:29Z paul0: also, I love how lisp books work, "here is a string, here is a number, let's create a mapreduce code now"
2014-08-09T19:24:56Z paul0: from PCL
2014-08-09T19:26:07Z Bike: oh, and earlier - you're clear that a list (like (games)) is totally distinct from a vector, right?
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2014-08-09T19:26:34Z paul0: it is a lisp list?
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2014-08-09T19:26:51Z paul0: (cl:type-of (games)) -> CONS
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2014-08-09T19:27:04Z Bike: yes
2014-08-09T19:27:11Z Bike: lisp lists are not lisp vectors, is what i mean
2014-08-09T19:27:26Z Bike: (cons is a subtype of list, the other subtype being the type of nil)
2014-08-09T19:27:59Z paul0: thanks, I'm understand the list concepts, was reading the ANSI Common Lisp by Paul Graham
2014-08-09T19:28:17Z paul0: good book, gives some exercises with lists and recursion
2014-08-09T19:28:31Z paul0: another lisp book that teaches a lot about algorithms
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2014-08-09T20:23:58Z wasamasa: kristof: found you
2014-08-09T20:24:21Z kristof: wasamasa: happy for you, bud
2014-08-09T20:24:44Z kristof: wasamasa: go grab a copy of Practical Common Lisp and start programming.
2014-08-09T20:25:12Z wasamasa: kristof: actually, I've read that one if you mean the guide available online with that java-esque namespace at the beginning of every code sample
2014-08-09T20:25:22Z killerboy: hehe
2014-08-09T20:25:38Z kristof: Lol, yes
2014-08-09T20:25:44Z wasamasa: just to understand why people use (require 'cl) in their elisp code
2014-08-09T20:26:09Z wasamasa: and how the hell loop is used
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2014-08-09T20:26:15Z kristof: Richard Stallman would have used Common Lisp if it existed at the time of emacs inception.
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2014-08-09T20:26:35Z wasamasa: I'm not so sure about that
2014-08-09T20:26:50Z wasamasa: considering he's rather cheering for guile now
2014-08-09T20:27:26Z wasamasa: but don't mind me, I have no idea how to reconcile elisp using t and nil and scheme #t and #f
2014-08-09T20:27:37Z kristof: wasamasa: He wrote it himself. Justifying the development of elisp he said that scheme didn't have dynamic binding and cl didn't exist yet.
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2014-08-09T20:28:22Z kristof: wasamasa: nil being false is good for the same reason that 0 is false in C. You do things until there is nothing to do. It's good for conditional iteration.
2014-08-09T20:29:05Z wasamasa: now, where's this one chart by rich hickey about truthiness
2014-08-09T20:30:21Z kristof: It's on clojure.org comparing clojure to other lisps.
2014-08-09T20:30:33Z kristof: wasamasa: clojure uses NIL as well
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2014-08-09T20:36:27Z wasamasa: ugh, can't find it
2014-08-09T20:38:08Z kristof: wasamasa: clojure.org/lisps
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2014-08-09T20:39:01Z wasamasa: thanks
2014-08-09T20:39:25Z kristof: wasamasa: what's stopping you from using common lisp in your pet projects?
2014-08-09T20:39:43Z wasamasa: kristof: learning ruby at the moment, because work
2014-08-09T20:40:24Z kristof: wasamasa: what boggles my mind is why people use single threaded interpreted languages for web applications
2014-08-09T20:40:48Z wasamasa: kristof: I joked about using CL in case I get assigned a new project because it's the only lisp we haven't tried out yet
2014-08-09T20:40:59Z wasamasa: kristof: my boss went along with it in the meeting
2014-08-09T20:41:19Z kristof: wasamasa: when there has already been a fast, compiled, dynamic language that has multithreaded implementations
2014-08-09T20:41:33Z kristof: wasamasa: oh, cool. You guys tried scheme and clojure, then?
2014-08-09T20:41:36Z wasamasa: "Actually, we got an offer to maintain and improve an existing, bigger project written in CL so that may be indeed possible."
2014-08-09T20:41:46Z wasamasa: kristof: chicken and clojurescript
2014-08-09T20:42:04Z kristof: wasamasa: Neat-o! What problem domain was the cl app written for?
2014-08-09T20:42:21Z wasamasa: no idea, didn't ask for it
2014-08-09T20:42:24Z kristof: wasamasa: I bet you guys are still using clojurescript as a replacement for your js code
2014-08-09T20:42:49Z kristof: wasamasa: everything from core.async to macros just make web scripting so much more pleasant. I love cljs. I love it.
2014-08-09T20:43:13Z wasamasa: kristof: we had a webapp written in coffeescript and ember and one guy at our team had a hunch pretty much all of our performance and maintenance problems would go away if we were to rewrite it in cljs and react
2014-08-09T20:43:22Z wasamasa: or rather, om, not pure react
2014-08-09T20:43:28Z wasamasa: turned out he was right
2014-08-09T20:43:33Z kristof: wasamasa: om is incredible
2014-08-09T20:43:50Z kristof: wasamasa: talk to dnolen on #clojure about it sometime, or just read his blog
2014-08-09T20:44:08Z wasamasa: kristof: well, it helps that ember is pretty shit in comparision
2014-08-09T20:44:12Z kristof: wasamasa: the fundamental idea of using the browser as a remote rendering engine is awesome
2014-08-09T20:44:18Z wasamasa: kristof: the things it does to enable all the dynamics
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2014-08-09T20:44:33Z wasamasa barfs all over metamorph
2014-08-09T20:44:57Z kristof: wasamasa: coffeescript has some fucking wonky binding semantics
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2014-08-09T20:45:02Z wasamasa: that, too
2014-08-09T20:45:26Z kristof: wasamasa: you should idle in this channel and let us know what happens about maintaining that cl code base
2014-08-09T20:45:43Z wasamasa: so, since that precedent it may be possible we're going to use clj and cl for new projects
2014-08-09T20:45:56Z wasamasa: which would be pretty cool
2014-08-09T20:46:32Z kristof: wasamasa: I think it would be excellent. Since you're also using ocaml in house, I would recommend checking out Rust, too
2014-08-09T20:46:44Z wasamasa: me and ocaml?
2014-08-09T20:46:54Z wasamasa: don't remember writing that :P
2014-08-09T20:47:09Z kristof: wasamasa: ...someone else was, never mind
2014-08-09T20:47:15Z kristof: Conversation vertigo haha!
2014-08-09T20:47:29Z wasamasa: it's chicken, cljs, ruby+rails, erlang, postgres here
2014-08-09T20:48:57Z wasamasa: and I have to admit, ruby is a step up for me over python when judging by lisp-factor
2014-08-09T20:49:22Z kristof: wasamasa: man, I want to say I like ruby, but the metaprogramming is all wrong
2014-08-09T20:49:49Z wasamasa: kristof: at least they don't disassemble the bytecode and use monads for logic optimization
2014-08-09T20:49:55Z kristof: wasamasa: you parse strings and interpret methods at runtime, that just feels wrong to me. I like compile-time ast manipulation
2014-08-09T20:50:28Z kristof: wasamasa: watch your mouth, haskell's stream fusion is the best around!
2014-08-09T20:50:30Z wasamasa: kristof: http://youtu.be/U__Z0HyMrCU
2014-08-09T20:50:43Z wasamasa: didn't think I'd see someone writing python use that word
2014-08-09T20:50:52Z wasamasa: but here it is, the probably coolest python orm I've seen
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2014-08-09T20:52:40Z kristof: wasamasa: dear god. You just showed me Greenspun: the Short Film
2014-08-09T20:53:00Z wasamasa: decompile bytecode, build an AST, annotate the nodes, assign types to them, turn it into abstract SQL, optimize to SQL engine used with monads, return query results in form of objects
2014-08-09T20:53:31Z wasamasa: I think I prefer some regex to figure out what to do with missing methods
2014-08-09T20:54:09Z kristof: wasamasa: I think I prefer to never have missing methods because of interface-based compile time guarantees
2014-08-09T20:54:23Z kristof: "This is a thing that does these things. Statically guaranteed."
2014-08-09T20:54:59Z wasamasa: but ok, to come back to the "most advanced" programming language
2014-08-09T20:55:10Z wasamasa: are there any attempts at something like typed CL?
2014-08-09T20:55:24Z wasamasa: I've seen typed clojure and typed racket
2014-08-09T20:55:30Z kristof: wasamasa: depends on what you want types for.
2014-08-09T20:55:44Z wasamasa: more guarantees than I have with java
2014-08-09T20:56:04Z wasamasa: something like racket's contracts would be nice I think
2014-08-09T20:56:10Z kristof: wasamasa: having EVERYTHING typed? I can't think if a project. But there are projects that introduce ADTs, and a types unification library
2014-08-09T20:56:29Z kristof: wasamasa: and fare built a very awesome interface-passing style library dor parametric types
2014-08-09T20:56:32Z wasamasa: since these are optional and describe how the function in question shall behave
2014-08-09T20:56:44Z wasamasa: and allow me to enforce it if I feel like that
2014-08-09T20:57:04Z wasamasa: which sounds pretty cool for debugging :P
2014-08-09T20:57:13Z kristof: Assertions are your contracts
2014-08-09T20:58:05Z Ralt: are they compile-time though?
2014-08-09T20:58:10Z kristof: wasamasa: do you know what restarts are in common lisp? It's error handling without stack unwinding
2014-08-09T20:58:26Z kristof: Ralt: the best use of contracts are NOT for compile time guarantees
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2014-08-09T20:58:30Z wasamasa: kristof: I've seen them briefly mentioned in the practical cl book with the note they can be abused
2014-08-09T20:59:08Z kristof: wasamasa: using assertions with restarts, you can "fix" problems signalled by assertions programmatically
2014-08-09T20:59:33Z wasamasa: kristof: besides that I've only been thrown in the debugger
2014-08-09T20:59:50Z kristof: wasamasa: mutate slots to default values for malformed data, for instance
2014-08-09T21:00:17Z Ralt: kristof: the issue with runtime asserts is that they're not run all the time
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2014-08-09T21:00:39Z Ralt: so you can't be certain that your asserts still pass
2014-08-09T21:00:39Z kristof: Ralt: they're not? I thought that was, you know, the point
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2014-08-09T21:01:12Z Ralt: well if a function is only called when a certain thing is done
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2014-08-09T21:03:04Z kristof: Ralt: if it's only called once, I'd expect my assertion to only be called once. If I need to verify some conditions or state multiple times over the course of a function I would definitely use a VERIFY function or something called between iterations
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2014-08-09T21:03:46Z kristof: Ralt: and when in doubt, assert is a macro so you can just macroexpand-1 and see the magic
2014-08-09T21:04:37Z kristof: wasamasa: so yeah, you've got contracts... for some value of contract. My understand of a contract is pre/post conditions, so that's definitely satisfiable.
2014-08-09T21:04:39Z Ralt: kristof: what I mean is that when using a global variable or an external resource, for example, the assert may not pass anymore, but I won't know it till I run this specific function
2014-08-09T21:05:23Z kristof: Ralt: then you throw the assertion closer to the specific function that needs it
2014-08-09T21:06:34Z Ralt: kristof: hm?
2014-08-09T21:06:48Z kristof: I'm confused :P
2014-08-09T21:08:03Z Ralt: so am I
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2014-08-09T21:08:39Z wasamasa is confused by the amount of equality predicates
2014-08-09T21:09:06Z wasamasa: why can't there be == and is
2014-08-09T21:09:13Z wasamasa: for value and identity
2014-08-09T21:09:16Z kristof: wasamasa: they exist in every other language, too.
2014-08-09T21:09:24Z pjb: wasamasa needs to read: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html
2014-08-09T21:09:27Z PuercoPop: there is also quid-pro-quo of contracts with CLOS using invariats in classses and pre/post-conditions on methods.
2014-08-09T21:09:35Z kristof: wasamasa: pointer equality, numerical equality, total structural equality, etc.
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2014-08-09T21:09:48Z wasamasa: PuercoPop: ohi
2014-08-09T21:10:03Z wasamasa: PuercoPop: thanks for nyan-prompt
2014-08-09T21:10:09Z pjb: Any equivalence relationship can be used as an equality!  Didn't you learn anything in Maths?
2014-08-09T21:10:55Z kristof: I hated discrete math. :P equivalence relations, bluh
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2014-08-09T21:14:06Z kristof: pjb: Kent Pitman once said that he didn't consider himself a very good writer. I consider that very, very wrong.
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2014-08-09T21:20:20Z wasamasa: pjb: reading this article puts me to sleep
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2014-08-09T21:20:55Z Xach: Wake up and finish it.
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2014-08-09T21:28:06Z wasamasa: so, if I understand this correctly
2014-08-09T21:28:41Z JuanDaugherty: mehbe was fishing for complements
2014-08-09T21:28:41Z wasamasa: a language like python gets away with arbitrarily defining what equality means for each type because there's just one popular implementation instead of a spec anyways
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2014-08-09T21:29:12Z wasamasa: whereas common lisp decided for the other option and gave more specific equality predicates at your disposal?
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2014-08-09T21:33:15Z JuanDaugherty: no
2014-08-09T21:34:00Z wasamasa: :<
2014-08-09T21:34:08Z JuanDaugherty: language implementors do whatever they (or their employers) want, though if the lang is speced they normally will be in substantial or complete conformance with it
2014-08-09T21:35:38Z JuanDaugherty: i imagine python has a independent specing entity corresponding to that for CL (ANSI?) but dunno for a fact
2014-08-09T21:35:43Z PuercoPop: wasamasa: thx. I am unsure what python has to do with the problem of defining equality. what does it mean for two objects to be equal? There is no right answer. (In numbers it is much more clear)
2014-08-09T21:36:01Z wasamasa: PuercoPop: it's just the language I know best that has the behaviour I expect
2014-08-09T21:36:27Z PuercoPop: are two person objects with the same name equal?
2014-08-09T21:36:35Z wasamasa: PuercoPop: merely providing two equality operators
2014-08-09T21:36:43Z wasamasa: PuercoPop: one for the value, the other for identity
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2014-08-09T21:37:39Z pjb: wasamasa: what word don't you understand in "Any equivalence relationship can be used as an equality!"?
2014-08-09T21:38:06Z PuercoPop: in Python is one for 'identity' and one to do whatever you want. it is not even guaranteed to be commutative.
2014-08-09T21:38:23Z wasamasa: pjb: I stopped parsing it after "equivalence relationship"
2014-08-09T21:38:24Z Bike: Can you not have a loop variable with for-as-arithmetic that steps down without setting an iteration endpoint?
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2014-08-09T21:39:25Z stack`: To misquote the late Erik Naggum, it is not wise to approach Common Lisp by comparing it to other languages...
2014-08-09T21:40:01Z pjb: Bike: (loop for i from 10 by -1 for x in '(1 2 3 4) collect (list i x)) --> ((10 1) (9 2) (8 3) (7 4))
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2014-08-09T21:40:13Z PuercoPop: stack`: and Dijkstra's on the cruelty of really teaching computer science!
2014-08-09T21:40:24Z stack`: :)
2014-08-09T21:40:35Z Bike: pjb: the 'by' has to be a positive number. weird, huh?
2014-08-09T21:40:46Z TomRS: hi: sorry I have a question too. I am also new to CLisp. I am using emacs for coding. When I have openend a lisp file which contains many methods that are used in various other files... is there a way to find all references? Like in eclipse?
2014-08-09T21:41:19Z pjb: wasamasa: there are an infinite number of equality operators.  The language cannot implement them all, and cannot guess what equality your application will need.  Therefore it's up to you to implement your own equality, and be happy that CL provides more of them than your old language!
2014-08-09T21:41:41Z wasamasa: pjb: besides, what about this: http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ObjectIdentity.html
2014-08-09T21:41:45Z pjb: TomRS: Are you talking about the implementation or the language?
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2014-08-09T21:42:05Z TomRS: I mean cusom functions (own code)
2014-08-09T21:42:11Z TomRS: I know the hyperspec
2014-08-09T21:42:14Z stack`: Slime has a bunch of commands for cross-referencing... Who calls, who binds, who sets, who macro-expands...
2014-08-09T21:42:20Z JuanDaugherty: looks like the pythong doesn't in fact have a spec, just a process
2014-08-09T21:42:42Z pjb: wasamasa: again object identity is meaningless in general.  CL provides two object identities: implementation identity EQ, and usual identity EQL.
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2014-08-09T21:43:00Z PuercoPop: TomRS: yes in Slime, using slime-xref commands, for methods use slime-who-specialized to find out which methods are defined for a class and M-. on a method(or function) call to see all its (loaded) definition's
2014-08-09T21:43:02Z pjb: You could invent other identities, eg. in the context of databases or remote execution, etc.
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2014-08-09T21:43:31Z TomRS: Thanks a lot @ all!!
2014-08-09T21:43:49Z TomRS: lisp has quite a vivid community! :)
2014-08-09T21:43:52Z wasamasa finally fell asleep
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2014-08-09T21:46:41Z pjb: Bike: I guess clhs overspecifies there, they were probably thinking of "for v from f upto/downto l".  So (loop for i = 10 then (- i 1) for x in '(1 2 3 4) collect (list i x)) --> ((10 1) (9 2) (8 3) (7 4))
2014-08-09T21:46:55Z stack`: TomRS, if you want to see vivid, I seriously suggest reading the Erik Naggum archives on Xach's site: http://xach.com/naggum/articles/  It is both entertaining and informative.  I can barely tear myself away.
2014-08-09T21:46:58Z Bike: yeah, i can do that, it's just kinda weird
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2014-08-09T21:50:22Z TomRS: stack: thanks! checking it out right now :)
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2014-08-09T23:54:29Z stack`: Guys, I think I accidentally ran fmakeunbound on incf.  Is there a way to restore the original incf?
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2014-08-09T23:55:14Z Xach: easiest thing is to restart
2014-08-09T23:55:53Z stack`: Xach, is there an easy way to restart just the REPL?  I have this ERC session I was hoping not to kill.
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2014-08-09T23:56:25Z PuercoPop: stack`: press , restar
2014-08-09T23:57:12Z Xach: Are you talking about emacs lisp?
2014-08-09T23:57:26Z stack`: SBCL in REPL
2014-08-09T23:57:39Z stack`: Slimed
2014-08-09T23:58:11Z Xach: You can use M-x slime-restart-inferior-lisp to restart sbcl
2014-08-09T23:58:42Z stack`: Thanx
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2014-08-10T02:39:35Z pjb`: stack`: that said, incf is a macro, it won't be hard to redefine it.
2014-08-10T02:40:13Z pjb`: If you can't write this 'simple' macro (you'd need to use get-setf-expansion), you can just fetch it from the sources of your implementation.
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2014-08-10T02:55:35Z stack`: pjb`, that is true.  Restarting is however, easier, and I am glad I know how to do that quickly now...
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2014-08-10T03:42:03Z stack`: Hey guys, I just disassembled an accessor of a class.  It simply gets to a floating-point slot.  I am using SBCL.  The size of the accessor is 339 bytes, and it seems a little excessive, even with default debugging options set.  Is this the norm?
2014-08-10T03:42:34Z Bike: probably. you have to worry about class redefinition and stuff.
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2014-08-10T03:43:19Z Xach: if you want smaller code you have to use things that don't change (or that are allowed to break when you change them) like defstruct
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2014-08-10T03:43:55Z Bike: oh, and methods being defined everywhere. lotsa stuff.
2014-08-10T03:43:57Z Xach: my solution is not to care unless it is demonstrably the worst and most important problem with speed in my program
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2014-08-10T03:44:19Z stack`: Agreed.  Not worried, just curious.
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2014-08-10T03:45:11Z stack`: Would a type declaration help?  The slot is always single-float.
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2014-08-10T03:45:43Z Xach: not usually. you might decide to redefine the class later.
2014-08-10T03:45:44Z Bike: redefinition could clobber the type declaration, i think
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2014-08-10T03:45:59Z stack`: SBCL's profiler rocks, btw.  I am really excited about that.
2014-08-10T03:46:05Z Bike: actually, i wonder how that works with a compiled call to the accessor.
2014-08-10T03:46:18Z Xach: in theory the implementation could do bookkeeping about what to recompile. i don't know which do that. or what other strategies are available.
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2014-08-10T03:46:53Z Bike: i guess you could declaim an ftype for the accessor. wonder if anyone bothers.
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2014-08-10T03:48:52Z stack`: It seems reasonable to not bother with today's machines.  I suppose it's worth paying attension to how much consing is going on instead.
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2014-08-10T03:49:51Z Xach: sometimes, but not always
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2014-08-10T03:51:09Z stack`: Well, I am pretty happy to let the compiler do its thing.  I wish I had a better grasp of how the type system actually works, but that is for another day.
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2014-08-10T03:52:10Z Xach: sbcl is the most popular lisp so it can sometimes be tempting to mistake all the work it does with types with the work a typical implementation does with types, but sbcl is pretty special
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2014-08-10T03:52:28Z Xach: and slow, what with all it does
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2014-08-10T03:52:59Z stack`: Xach, what implementation do you prefer?
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2014-08-10T03:53:52Z Xach: i use sbcl most of the time. i also use and like clozure cl. lispworks is pretty great. i haven't used allegro cl very much but it seems very fast and with some nice add-on tools.
2014-08-10T03:54:10Z Xach: i don't like clisp very much, but even a bad cl is better than nothing.
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2014-08-10T03:54:51Z Xach is catching up on 2014's quicklisp access logs and wants to compile usage stats 
2014-08-10T03:54:57Z stack`: CMUCL?
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2014-08-10T03:55:38Z Xach: It's hard for me to imagine someone new starting with CMUCL. I can imagine why people who got used to it when it was the best option sticking with it, but times have changed.
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2014-08-10T03:56:28Z Xach: i think sbcl's active (by comparison) development, new features, widespread testing, buildability, popularity, and more make it a better choice if historical preference is not a consideration.
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2014-08-10T03:57:22Z stack`: That was my choice (about a month into Lisp), for the reasons you listed.
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2014-08-10T03:58:33Z stack`: What do you like about CCL, as compared to SBCL?
2014-08-10T03:58:37Z |3b| can imagine people starting with it, but doesn't think it is the best choice
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2014-08-10T03:59:24Z Xach: stack`: I like how fast it is at compiling, and how it has a consulting company dedicated to specializing and improving it for customers who need it. and that company employs me, too, which is really fine.
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2014-08-10T03:59:48Z stack`: I couldn't figure out how to install CMUCL, gave up after wasting 15 minutes.
2014-08-10T03:59:51Z Xach: It has a rich, interesting history, good windows support, neat & smart hackers.
2014-08-10T04:00:08Z stack`: Ah.
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2014-08-10T04:00:22Z Xach: (not me, specifically, the compiler hackers are neat & smart)
2014-08-10T04:00:39Z stack`: I'll give it a try when I have a chance.
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2014-08-10T04:00:56Z Xach: it's a good tool to have in the toolbox
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2014-08-10T04:02:05Z stack`: I think I was confusing it with Clojure
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2014-08-10T04:03:20Z Xach: clozure has been around longer.
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2014-08-10T04:07:22Z stack`: Xach, does the CCL IDE work in Linux?
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2014-08-10T04:09:28Z Xach: stack`: No. It's a Mac app.
2014-08-10T04:09:38Z Xach: uses cocoa.
2014-08-10T04:09:42Z stack`: Hemlock?
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2014-08-10T04:09:53Z Xach: it's derived from hemlock but is not the same as hemlock.
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2014-08-10T04:10:24Z Xach: the text editing bit descends from hemlock but there are a lot of hooks into the cocoa text system, and cocoa tool windows, and other stuff like that.
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2014-08-10T04:10:45Z stack`: Is hemlock usable in any way on linux?
2014-08-10T04:11:00Z stack`: Or is it just a part of the IDE?
2014-08-10T04:11:03Z Xach: i know some people who use the ccl ide for everyday work but I usually still use slime with ccl.
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2014-08-10T04:11:26Z Xach: stack`: there is a hemlock that uses clx. i don't know how usable it is, haven't really tried it.
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2014-08-10T04:13:48Z stack`: Thanks, Xach
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2014-08-10T04:57:40Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-08-10T05:08:48Z theos: good morning!
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2014-08-10T05:12:41Z beach: The register-allocation methods I have seen in the literature allocate variables to registers *globally*, i.e., for the entire function.  However, I am thinking, when there is a loop (for instance) it might be better allocate differently inside the loop.
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2014-08-10T05:13:42Z beach: In fact, if one assumes that loops are executed at least 10 or so times, then register allocation should be done for inner loops first.  The rest is less important.
2014-08-10T05:14:21Z beach: Not quite on-topic, but related to how CL compilers optimize.
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2014-08-10T05:18:00Z Bike: could you generalize that to, like, subfunctions?
2014-08-10T05:19:25Z beach: What do you mean?
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2014-08-10T05:20:49Z Bike: like picking out parts of the function to prioritize in the same way you're talking about prioritizing loops, i guess
2014-08-10T05:21:13Z beach: Maybe.
2014-08-10T05:21:34Z beach: I picked loops because they are typically executed more than once.
2014-08-10T05:22:04Z beach: But I suppose in an area where a particular variable is used a lot, it is more important for it to be in a register in that area.
2014-08-10T05:22:09Z beach: So, yes, I think you are right.
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2014-08-10T05:22:58Z beach: Hmm, I need to come up with a better register-allocation method.  That sounds like research.
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2014-08-10T05:24:41Z beach: Thanks for listening to my rants, Bike.  The feedback is very valuable, and hard to find anywhere else.
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2014-08-10T05:27:29Z |3b|: dragon book has at least one part that talks about doing global register allocation based on frequency of use (as an optimization over a previously discussed allocator that did register allocation per basic block)
2014-08-10T05:29:00Z beach: |3b|: Thanks.  Muchnick's book also discusses such a thing.  Probably the same one I would think.  I'll check the dragon book to see.
2014-08-10T05:29:55Z beach: But the method cited by Muchnick is still global.  It doesn't have a different solution for different parts of the program.
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2014-08-10T05:30:10Z |3b| would also expect allocation based on values rather than variables, which i think dragon book was doing
2014-08-10T05:30:39Z beach: Yes, I see.
2014-08-10T05:30:43Z Zhivago: I'd expect it to be focused on minimizing the cost due to eviction.
2014-08-10T05:30:53Z beach: Might be the same thing after value numbering and CSE has been done.
2014-08-10T05:31:16Z Zhivago: Tracing analyzers have a major advantage in these respects.
2014-08-10T05:31:30Z |3b|: right, i guess they are the same in SSA as well, if you count the generated 'variables'
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2014-08-10T05:32:37Z beach: Zhivago: Yes, I was thinking of something like that in the past.  But instead of using real executions, use a simulated one.  Then apply something similar to the LRU algorithm used for paging.
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2014-08-10T05:32:52Z Zhivago: Why not use real execution?
2014-08-10T05:33:23Z Zhivago: You can always save the profiles afterward and then lock them in if you want.
2014-08-10T05:33:43Z Zhivago: Real execution has the benefit that it allows tuning for real data loads.
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2014-08-10T05:34:17Z beach: And recompile after a while when data has been gathered?
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2014-08-10T05:50:05Z Zhivago: Sure, with the saved and locked in profiles, if you don't want any further tuning.
2014-08-10T05:50:29Z Zhivago: But, frankly, I suspect that what you generally want is something pretty much like v8.
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2014-08-10T05:52:22Z beach: Maybe so.
2014-08-10T05:55:32Z |3b|: yeah, a runtime optimizing CL would be nice to have (tracing or otherwise)
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2014-08-10T06:15:25Z beach: |3b|: A lot of work, though.
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2014-08-10T07:21:47Z Guthur: does a multitude of keyword args seem like bad API design?
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2014-08-10T07:23:00Z Guthur: i have some make-foo funs which could theoretically have around 15 kwargs
2014-08-10T07:24:10Z Guthur: the objects also have setter funs for all the options but i'm toying with the idea of allowing all the options to set with the make-foo
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2014-08-10T07:27:22Z beach: Hard to say in general I think.  Can you give a more detailed description of your objects?
2014-08-10T07:27:26Z phadthai: performance might be affected but I see no problem, defstruct afterall produces make functions behaving this way too, except when providing an alternative constructor
2014-08-10T07:31:01Z Guthur: beach: these are constructors of objects within a 3D physics simulation, they have numerous attributes which can be adjusted some of which you would probably set to some value upon instantiating
2014-08-10T07:31:35Z JuanDaugherty: it doesn't to me
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2014-08-10T07:31:55Z JuanDaugherty: but I have a high tolerance for diversity
2014-08-10T07:32:01Z beach: I see no problem a priori.
2014-08-10T07:33:19Z Guthur: I'll give it a try and see
2014-08-10T07:34:12Z Guthur: this library is still very much alpha and currently unreleased, so i can change it if appears too cumbersome
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2014-08-10T09:26:32Z elderK: Hey guys, is there a portable feature flag for checking if you're on say, a 32 or 64bit architecture?
2014-08-10T09:30:41Z H4ns: common lisp is not concerned with 32 or 64 bits, but maybe cffi has something for you.
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2014-08-10T09:31:39Z elderK: thanks H4ns
2014-08-10T09:33:05Z beach: elderK: You could get a pretty good idea if you take (integer-length most-positive-fixnum)
2014-08-10T09:33:28Z beach: But there is no guarantee of course.
2014-08-10T09:34:45Z elderK: It makes writing a binding difficult if you cannot determine the arch size :)
2014-08-10T09:34:49Z elderK: i.e. sure, we haev pointers ;P
2014-08-10T09:34:55Z elderK: but what about intptr_t/
2014-08-10T09:34:55Z elderK: ?
2014-08-10T09:35:33Z elderK: then again, CFFI will treat a generic pointer however I want it to, so it's no real biggy :)
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2014-08-10T09:38:53Z elderK: AHA! foreign-type-alignment will do well enough
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2014-08-10T09:40:44Z elderK: or even foreign-type-size :)
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2014-08-10T10:35:25Z AeroNotix: I want to generate a symbol from a string and a portion of the symbol. I have some code to do this, but it generates a symbol surrounded by bars. I want to generate a function name
2014-08-10T10:35:35Z AeroNotix: https://gist.github.com/AeroNotix/7668ab5e4225df07128e
2014-08-10T10:35:40Z AeroNotix: What's a better way to do this?
2014-08-10T10:35:59Z AeroNotix: make-symbol/
2014-08-10T10:36:02Z AeroNotix: ?
2014-08-10T10:36:26Z AeroNotix: in clojure there's (symbol &rest)
2014-08-10T10:37:22Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: ohi
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2014-08-10T10:37:46Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: yo
2014-08-10T10:38:15Z AeroNotix: the more time I spend on IRC, the smaller it seems.
2014-08-10T10:38:20Z wasamasa: heh
2014-08-10T10:38:26Z nightfly: AeroNotix The bars are just the string representation, to remove ambiguity about case
2014-08-10T10:38:52Z AeroNotix: nightfly: indeed, but when I try to call it it complains about an unknown function
2014-08-10T10:38:53Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: I briefly wondered whether there might be a connection between smugness and language choice, then you appeared on here
2014-08-10T10:39:02Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: and confirmed your hypothesis?
2014-08-10T10:39:04Z AeroNotix: :)
2014-08-10T10:39:08Z wasamasa: pretty much
2014-08-10T10:39:37Z nightfly: if you don't have a case-sensative reading explicitly enabled you need use the bars when calling the function
2014-08-10T10:41:43Z AeroNotix: https://gist.github.com/AeroNotix/ff3d128c16b4abb31efd so I don't understand this
2014-08-10T10:43:41Z AeroNotix: added the macro definitions
2014-08-10T10:46:05Z AeroNotix: user=> (symbol (format "hello-%s" "something"))
2014-08-10T10:46:07Z AeroNotix: hello-something
2014-08-10T10:46:10Z AeroNotix: in clojure ^
2014-08-10T10:47:50Z nightfly: (make-symbol (format nil "hello-~a" "something"))
2014-08-10T10:48:20Z AeroNotix: nightfly: and what if you want to make that symbol a qualified symbol?
2014-08-10T10:48:23Z AeroNotix: from another package
2014-08-10T10:52:59Z beach: clhs intern
2014-08-10T10:52:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm
2014-08-10T10:53:15Z beach: AeroNotix: INTERN takes an optional package.
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2014-08-10T10:54:00Z AeroNotix: beach: derp, missed that. Thanks!
2014-08-10T10:54:44Z beach: AeroNotix: If you put a `:' in the string that you intern, that's not going to be the package; only part of the name of the symbol.
2014-08-10T10:55:22Z beach: The existence of a `:' in the symbol name is the reason that the Lisp printer finds it necessary to print it surrounded by vertical bars.
2014-08-10T10:55:25Z AeroNotix: beach: indeed. Everything's clear now, thanks
2014-08-10T10:55:42Z beach: Anytime.
2014-08-10T10:56:25Z AeroNotix: on an unrelated note; is there a reader macro out there already which acts like Clojure's lambda reader macro?
2014-08-10T10:56:35Z AeroNotix: I know it'd be possible to write one, but if it already exists....
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2014-08-10T11:26:12Z Xach: AeroNotix: what act is that?
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2014-08-10T11:33:02Z H4ns: AeroNotix: don't make common lisp look like clojure
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2014-08-10T12:00:57Z dlowe: AeroNotix: you should check out plambda
2014-08-10T12:01:07Z dlowe: I think the full name is positional-lambda
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2014-08-10T12:10:36Z AeroNotix: Xach: act?
2014-08-10T12:10:49Z AeroNotix: H4ns: there are some features which are objectively good
2014-08-10T12:11:19Z AeroNotix: #(+ %1 %2) is far better than (lambda (a b) (+ a b))
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2014-08-10T12:12:51Z AeroNotix: H4ns: you're writing Clojure for a living, correct?
2014-08-10T12:13:00Z Xach: AeroNotix: Yeah. I am not familiar with how Clojure's lambda reader acts.
2014-08-10T12:13:03Z AeroNotix: Not sure where I got that idea, but maybe that's right
2014-08-10T12:13:17Z Xach: AeroNotix: I don't think the %N syntax is an improvement.
2014-08-10T12:13:38Z AeroNotix: Xach: even just the single % is good, very nice for closures
2014-08-10T12:14:26Z Xach: It's fine to like it, but I don't think the preference is objective.
2014-08-10T12:15:03Z AeroNotix: Xach: in small snippets it looks ridiculous, but in larger pieces of code it makes for more concise and readable code.
2014-08-10T12:15:37Z Shinmera: I tend to think less syntax is better.
2014-08-10T12:15:46Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: generally, I agree
2014-08-10T12:15:55Z AeroNotix: but there are some places where additional syntax clears a lot of stuff up
2014-08-10T12:16:06Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: I wonder whether this design decision was a knee-jerk reaction to the java boilerplate involved when creating lambda-likes
2014-08-10T12:16:28Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: nice theory :)
2014-08-10T12:16:33Z AeroNotix: could be!
2014-08-10T12:16:38Z Shinmera: Specially treating variable names depending on a prefix or anything seems really bad to me
2014-08-10T12:16:43Z wasamasa: I've heard they use anonymous classes for that
2014-08-10T12:17:07Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: implementation details are irrelevant no?
2014-08-10T12:17:15Z AeroNotix: but yeah, they're anonymous classes
2014-08-10T12:17:30Z AeroNotix: and they're created each time it's evaluated :)
2014-08-10T12:17:33Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: about as irrelevant as syntactical sugar :P
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2014-08-10T13:27:04Z Guthur: AeroNotix: if you are using emacs you can have the lambda keyword replaced as lambda symbol
2014-08-10T13:27:47Z Guthur: of course you still have to type it, but I'm sure you could even shortcut that if your really wanted to
2014-08-10T13:28:15Z Guthur: but I don't you will be writing lambda enough to warrant that, but reading code is another things entirely
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2014-08-10T13:29:55Z AeroNotix: I just find it a lot more readable
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2014-08-10T13:34:09Z Guthur: you could try pretty-lambdada,
2014-08-10T13:34:50Z Guthur: that's at least one package that replaces lambda with the greek letter
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2014-08-10T14:21:59Z H4ns: AeroNotix: i write both common lisp and clojure for a living, and i stick to each language idioms nevertheless.  carrying over features from one language to another rarely makes for a better overall code base.
2014-08-10T14:22:29Z JuanDaugherty: for the same client/employer?
2014-08-10T14:23:18Z JuanDaugherty: i would think the clojure and cl entities would be distinct
2014-08-10T14:24:36Z JuanDaugherty: disjoint even
2014-08-10T14:24:59Z H4ns: JuanDaugherty: i get to use the tools that i think are best suited to the task at hand.
2014-08-10T14:25:34Z JuanDaugherty: and in this way you've come to introduce clojure?
2014-08-10T14:25:36Z H4ns: JuanDaugherty: i prefer cl mostly, but clojure has an edge when it comes to using third party libraries, because there are more of them.
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2014-08-10T14:25:56Z AeroNotix: H4ns: that's the reason $DAYJOB started using it as well
2014-08-10T14:26:00Z JuanDaugherty: more of them meaning the greater java ecosystem
2014-08-10T14:26:36Z AeroNotix: H4ns: what about Clojure's gensym reader macro? It's such a big help
2014-08-10T14:26:57Z JuanDaugherty: H4ns, we are of one mind there. I deplore pinning to langs of any kind.
2014-08-10T14:27:09Z H4ns: AeroNotix: it is not "such a big help", it is a convenience.
2014-08-10T14:27:35Z AeroNotix: Sure, convenience.
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2014-08-10T14:30:22Z AeroNotix: H4ns: do you ever use Clojure/CL in the same project?
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2014-08-10T14:30:31Z AeroNotix: say for separate entities
2014-08-10T14:30:56Z JuanDaugherty: although I do like to deplore pythong and php for purely comic purposes
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2014-08-10T14:31:21Z JuanDaugherty: that doesn't look good
2014-08-10T14:31:30Z H4ns: AeroNotix: i use clojure when i need to access java libraries.  i have used abcl for that in the past, but that did not go too well because abcl lacks in terms of deployability.
2014-08-10T14:32:13Z AeroNotix: TIL about ABCL
2014-08-10T14:32:32Z AeroNotix: H4ns: can you not make abcl applications into single jars?
2014-08-10T14:33:20Z p_l: AeroNotix: technically you can
2014-08-10T14:33:22Z H4ns: AeroNotix: not easy enough for me.
2014-08-10T14:33:27Z p_l: Not sure about tooling available for doing so
2014-08-10T14:33:35Z H4ns: p_l: there is none.
2014-08-10T14:33:55Z AeroNotix: gotcha
2014-08-10T14:34:03Z AeroNotix: Clojure's deployment story is really nice
2014-08-10T14:34:18Z p_l: well, existence of abcl.jar shows that you can make it into single jar. It's just that, well, abcl lacks tooling
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2014-08-10T14:35:24Z Guthur: is there not a java interface library coming, seen it on lispworks mailing list
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2014-08-10T14:36:11Z Guthur: umm, can't remember the name right now
2014-08-10T14:36:24Z H4ns: not open source anyway
2014-08-10T14:36:40Z Guthur: ah, http://jfli.sourceforge.net/
2014-08-10T14:37:11Z p_l: Guthur: there is more than one project like that, indeed
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2014-08-10T14:37:23Z p_l: and sometimes the question is what kind of interface you want exactly
2014-08-10T14:37:38Z p_l: for example, I haven't seen open source library that embeds JRE
2014-08-10T14:37:50Z p_l: though I think the ACL one does it
2014-08-10T14:38:29Z stack`: Is there a CL for Android?
2014-08-10T14:38:35Z Fade: yes
2014-08-10T14:38:41Z Fade: mocl
2014-08-10T14:38:47Z Fade: it's a commercial product
2014-08-10T14:39:16Z p_l: I wish they had posted documentation on-line for mocl :|
2014-08-10T14:39:32Z p_l: can't exaclty pony up the money for a license right now just to check if certain ideas will work
2014-08-10T14:39:39Z Fade: I've heard that Gambit Scheme can target android platforms, as well.
2014-08-10T14:39:57Z p_l: Fade: Kawa Scheme was actually used in Android AppInventor
2014-08-10T14:40:09Z Fade: I'm possibly misremembering.
2014-08-10T14:40:23Z Shinmera: stack`: what do you mean by 'for android'?
2014-08-10T14:40:23Z stack`: Very little on the MOCL website.  Seemed more for Apple then Android.
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2014-08-10T14:40:40Z Shinmera: do you want to develop apps for android or do you want to run an implementation on android?
2014-08-10T14:41:03Z p_l: There's LW for Android, but other than one demo app there's nothing public about it
2014-08-10T14:41:08Z stack`: Shinmera, ideally, both.  But developing apps would be better then nothing.
2014-08-10T14:41:10Z Fade: my interest in programming for the android system is at the level of curiosity; all I know about mocl is that it is commercial and that it exists.
2014-08-10T14:41:11Z Shinmera: MOCL does the former, SBCL and CCL on ARM do the latter.
2014-08-10T14:41:49Z Shinmera: MOCL is basically more of a library that you hook into your Java/Objective-C project and then use to do most of your stuff with.
2014-08-10T14:41:50Z p_l: according to mocl's support page, the important for me ticket is still not closed :(
2014-08-10T14:42:01Z p_l: which is call-out FFI
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2014-08-10T14:42:32Z stack`: How do SBCL, CCL do it?  Just by generating ARM code?  There is quite a bit to an Android app...
2014-08-10T14:42:48Z Shinmera: that's what I mean
2014-08-10T14:42:59Z Shinmera: they don't allow you to build apps, but they run on ARM
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2014-08-10T14:43:03Z Shinmera: so you can run them on Android
2014-08-10T14:43:22Z Shinmera: if you want to make apps, MOCL would be the thing to look at
2014-08-10T14:43:59Z stack`: I will keep an eye on it.  Was curious about Android, but all the XML, just kill me.
2014-08-10T14:44:16Z Shinmera: You don't have to use XML, you can build the UI programmatically.
2014-08-10T14:44:25Z Shinmera: It's still a pain, but hey
2014-08-10T14:44:42Z stack`: Java's no CL for building things programmatically...
2014-08-10T14:44:57Z Shinmera: Of course.
2014-08-10T14:45:05Z p_l: Shinmera: building UI programmatically in Android is also generally bad idea
2014-08-10T14:45:40Z Shinmera: makes me sad because I loathe UI description languages of any kind
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2014-08-10T14:46:06Z stack`: Building UIs is probably a bad idea.
2014-08-10T14:46:40Z p_l: Shinmera: well, it's a bad idea because programmatically your UI/UX will either suck horribly to the point of being useless (most usual case), or will require so much work you'll start praying for XML to come and rescue you
2014-08-10T14:47:08Z Shinmera: p_l: I know, I've taken a look at it and then never wanted to look again
2014-08-10T14:47:10Z H4ns: "it can't be done in cl, but it is not worth it anyway, so carry on" :D
2014-08-10T14:47:11Z p_l: stack`: interestingly, you could generate the XML from your own macros etc., as long as you generate and place the files at apropriate step in compilation
2014-08-10T14:48:04Z stack`: You'd think having a cl-based UI with s-exps for all the elements would make more sense anyway.
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2014-08-10T14:48:46Z Guthur: a sensible declarative UI markup with some form of data-binding seems the reasonable approach
2014-08-10T14:49:16Z p_l: TBH, android XML files are pretty good overall (they are, thank god, *not* 2nd normal form XML...)
2014-08-10T14:49:34Z Guthur: a sensible declarative UI markup with some form of data-binding seems a reasonable approach
2014-08-10T14:50:07Z JuanDaugherty is reviving an android app from 3 ya
2014-08-10T14:51:05Z stack`: Seemed like a hot mess to me.  The use of XML.  Having to dig through all those files to make sure the UI works in all the different cases.
2014-08-10T14:51:20Z p_l: stack`: because you have all the different cases
2014-08-10T14:51:39Z p_l: there's no magic bullet that makes different screens suddenly handle themselves for you
2014-08-10T14:52:34Z stack`: True.
2014-08-10T14:53:08Z p_l: the bigger problem in my experience when dealing with android xml files was eclipse for reasons unrelated to android at all
2014-08-10T14:53:14Z stack`: However, like stylesheets in HTML, you just can't easily figure out why your text is red without digging through all these crappy files.
2014-08-10T14:53:17Z p_l: IntelliJ made it much nicer
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2014-08-10T14:54:38Z stack`: Can't stand eclipse.  Much prefer emacs, even though I totally suck at it and have to look up just about every command.
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2014-08-10T14:55:17Z p_l: stack`: the trick to avoiding the mess about why the text is red is to keep certain things simple :)
2014-08-10T14:56:04Z stack`: p_l, that is true, but looking at even simple examples of Android apps, there is little simplicity in the layout of all the XML (at least for me)
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2014-08-10T14:56:58Z stack`: It's almost smart to specialize the way they do, but in practice it's just tedious.
2014-08-10T14:57:07Z JuanDaugherty: "hot mess" is seldom apropos anything "don't be evil" does, "hecticly thrown up but durable" characterizes android and angular the ones down in some depth to me
2014-08-10T14:57:15Z p_l: I think it simply takes getting used to. I used to find CL too complex at one time :)
2014-08-10T14:57:29Z JuanDaugherty: *known in some depth
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2014-08-10T14:57:54Z JuanDaugherty: p_l, I recanted a similar opining about c++
2014-08-10T14:58:19Z stack`: I am about 1 month into CL, and I totally love it (although know just enough to do really dumb things).
2014-08-10T14:58:36Z JuanDaugherty: never thought it about cl though it does have a litigious aspect
2014-08-10T14:58:51Z stack`: I can't say the same about Android, knowing a lot more about it and Java.
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2014-08-10T14:59:13Z stack`: C++ is just nuts.
2014-08-10T15:00:31Z JuanDaugherty: fyi, eclipse is probably the defacto most common/popular ide by far right now
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2014-08-10T15:00:48Z JuanDaugherty: the first i can recall that is really general
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2014-08-10T15:01:18Z JuanDaugherty: but yeah everybody dishes it with justice
2014-08-10T15:01:25Z stack`: People like pointing and clicking.
2014-08-10T15:01:43Z stack`: A lot of pointing and clicking
2014-08-10T15:01:57Z JuanDaugherty: well (some) people expect visual studio like stuff
2014-08-10T15:02:24Z stack`: People confuse being productive with a lot of pointing and clicking.
2014-08-10T15:02:45Z JuanDaugherty: i'm just now biting the bullet on xcode
2014-08-10T15:03:39Z H4ns: so, now that we all know how y'all despise contemporary programming, what was your suggestion for developing android applications in cl?
2014-08-10T15:03:56Z ARM9: clojure
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2014-08-10T15:04:02Z ARM9 runs
2014-08-10T15:04:12Z Ralt: mocl looks great
2014-08-10T15:04:29Z stack`: Ralt, have you tried it?
2014-08-10T15:04:34Z Ralt: but I don't know, there's no free trial iirc.
2014-08-10T15:04:43Z JuanDaugherty: well you could use their base OS and an appropriate implementation, prolly not sbcl
2014-08-10T15:05:20Z JuanDaugherty: in any case a very serious, daunting and perhaps prohibitive infrastructure slog will be in order
2014-08-10T15:05:42Z JuanDaugherty: and there's doubtless some project that's already bit it off
2014-08-10T15:05:42Z stack`: In order to have _deployable_ android apps, you really need a lot of infrastructure covered.
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2014-08-10T15:06:28Z JuanDaugherty: one would like to leverage off the apk deployment train but might not be the best way
2014-08-10T15:06:46Z stack`: You'd think that clojure should be able to hook into the right places.
2014-08-10T15:07:17Z stack`: Or any other JVM-based CL-like thing.
2014-08-10T15:07:21Z JuanDaugherty: whatever makes a generally usuable solid cl stack avail asap should prolly prevail
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2014-08-10T15:07:49Z JuanDaugherty: and there are likely more option is you go general lisp rather than cl
2014-08-10T15:08:03Z stack`: Dalvik-CL...
2014-08-10T15:08:55Z JuanDaugherty: seems like kind of thing scheme would handle easier, but yeah clojure being jave, should work best you'd think
2014-08-10T15:09:06Z JuanDaugherty: but you said CL
2014-08-10T15:09:55Z stack`: Well, I like CL but honestly, even Scheme would do.
2014-08-10T15:10:08Z JuanDaugherty: so maybe adjust expectations and be happy to use a lisp
2014-08-10T15:10:45Z JuanDaugherty: since you've already stated you can use clojure or cl per your prerogative
2014-08-10T15:10:46Z Fade: I have a clojure repl on my phone, but it takes five or six seconds to return the result of a simple addition.
2014-08-10T15:11:14Z JuanDaugherty: yeah there's that, the CPU resource is way different
2014-08-10T15:11:23Z stack`: Fade, I think it's a wrapper around the Commodore 6502 BASIC app.
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2014-08-10T15:11:56Z Fade: it's too slow to do anything 'real'
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2014-08-10T15:19:14Z Fade: dalvik kind of blows. :)
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2014-08-10T15:22:32Z ggole: Five or six *seconds*? O_o
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2014-08-10T15:29:11Z Fade: yeah
2014-08-10T15:29:18Z Fade: for (+ 5 5)
2014-08-10T15:29:39Z Bike: does that not improve after a few tries?
2014-08-10T15:31:49Z JuanDaugherty: prolly the actual addition is normal? the display is chewing up the time maybe
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2014-08-10T15:34:44Z ggole: Whatever it is, that's crazy.
2014-08-10T15:35:01Z p_l: Clojure is particularly bad for DVM
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2014-08-10T15:35:48Z p_l: it's not so much that DVM is bad, as Clojure-generated bytecode and behaviour goes heavily against DVM environment
2014-08-10T15:36:02Z TomRS: I have a question: I defined a class like so: (defclass variable ....) And I want to use this in another class as a list. E.g. (defclass equation () (variables :type list(variable) )
2014-08-10T15:36:10Z TomRS: what's the correct syntax here?
2014-08-10T15:36:27Z p_l: (some of this is Clojure being plainly slow in certain aspects that can be optimized out on "big" JVM, but are instead fully expensive on DVM...)
2014-08-10T15:36:31Z Xach: TomRS: There isn't a very useful way to express that.
2014-08-10T15:36:34Z H4ns: TomRS: there is no need for type declarations.
2014-08-10T15:36:43Z TomRS: aha
2014-08-10T15:37:02Z TomRS: in java I would type this.. but I guess I don't have to in lisp, right?
2014-08-10T15:37:17Z Xach: I understand the desire, but even if you could easily express it, it wouldn't do anything particularly useful.
2014-08-10T15:37:24Z Xach: TomRS: right.
2014-08-10T15:37:27Z TomRS: ok
2014-08-10T15:37:29Z TomRS: thanks
2014-08-10T15:37:51Z wasamasa: TomRS: you aren't forced to use classes for everything, unlike in java
2014-08-10T15:38:08Z wasamasa: TomRS: best would be if you forgot about everything java taught you and start anew
2014-08-10T15:38:15Z TomRS: :D
2014-08-10T15:38:23Z TomRS: not that easy :)
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2014-08-10T15:38:28Z JuanDaugherty: apparently dvm is replaced in the new level
2014-08-10T15:38:50Z Fade: new level?
2014-08-10T15:39:04Z JuanDaugherty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_Runtime
2014-08-10T15:40:05Z Fade: ah
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2014-08-10T15:40:18Z p_l: JuanDaugherty: it's not "replaced"
2014-08-10T15:40:30Z p_l: ART is a different implementation of DVM
2014-08-10T15:40:43Z p_l: they take the same bytecode
2014-08-10T15:41:24Z p_l: it's a bit like replacing openjdk with ExcelsiorJET
2014-08-10T15:42:16Z JuanDaugherty: yeah looks like it will be at least one more release after "L" before it's worked out
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2014-08-10T15:43:02Z JuanDaugherty is averse to early release stuff in principle
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2014-08-10T15:43:58Z JuanDaugherty: looks like apps have to be compiled when the apk is deployed
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2014-08-10T15:44:37Z Fade: since it embeds elf, that might make a CL -> android deployment process less painful
2014-08-10T15:45:15Z JuanDaugherty: *well worked out
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2014-08-10T15:47:20Z stack`: ART. hmm.  The push is to keep pulling the rug from under you.  I suspect to make sure you don't root your phone or god forbid, install Cyanogenmod or some other clean environment.
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2014-08-10T15:47:39Z JuanDaugherty: pnoid
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2014-08-10T15:47:55Z JuanDaugherty: it's to address the performance we were discussing
2014-08-10T15:48:34Z p_l: stack`: ART is open source and was available in custom roms since day 1 of its release
2014-08-10T15:48:36Z JuanDaugherty: which does ultimately have a commercial value
2014-08-10T15:50:01Z p_l: AOSP itself does not do anything to stop you from installing custom environment. Google-sold phones have both explicit and implicit support for replacing the firmware.
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2014-08-10T15:50:04Z JuanDaugherty: last android comment: I find you have to use CM a lot of the time
2014-08-10T15:50:22Z JuanDaugherty: so I don't think they're trynna block it
2014-08-10T15:50:36Z JuanDaugherty: the phone/telco vendors maybe
2014-08-10T15:50:42Z p_l: The only thing that happens is that security of the OS is getting stricter, because what you use to "root" a device you own is also going to be used by thieves/NSA/whatever
2014-08-10T15:50:49Z stack`: I wrote a game in Android to see what it's like (6 months ago) and performance was not really a problem.  And open-source is not really helpful when you get a new version of the OS pushed down your throat.
2014-08-10T15:51:18Z stack`: Every few months.
2014-08-10T15:51:31Z p_l: sounds like at least you get updates ;)
2014-08-10T15:51:54Z p_l: just don't get phones from asshole carriers (like Three in the UK)
2014-08-10T15:53:14Z p_l: that said, I can't wait till mocl gets call-out ffi. Or LW releases their implementation for Android
2014-08-10T15:53:53Z stack`: I got my phone nicely rooted and clean, then Republic Wireless just obliterated it.  Now I don't even bother installing apps, just make occasional calls on it.
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2014-08-10T15:55:27Z stack`: The trick is to push updates just as the hackers figure out a way to root the device.  After a year or so, obsolete the device.  Then you can track and push ads all youwant.
2014-08-10T15:56:42Z stack`: That way you can sell the wool, then make shish-kebobs from the sheep.
2014-08-10T15:56:56Z p_l: get a phone separately, and once you root replace the firmware or disable OTA updates. Majority of users need an auto-update mechanism, whether it's phone, desktop OS, your lisp application, etc. as long as you sell to typical "non-techie" client
2014-08-10T15:58:00Z stack`: My Moto X just said "Updating in 5 minutes".  I managed to cancel it a couple of times, then of course I missed it.
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2014-08-10T16:00:28Z stack`: Sadly, couldn't cyanogen my phone, and don't really want to pay more than $10/mo to microwave my head.
2014-08-10T16:00:56Z stack`: I sound like a grouchy old fart.
2014-08-10T16:03:02Z stack`: But the constant updates are a Microsoft-style feature.  Imagine if the CL spec was updated every 3 months, forcing cascading rewrites of everything.  That is just insanity.
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2014-08-10T16:04:52Z p_l: stack`: the updates don't force a rewrite of anything
2014-08-10T16:05:35Z p_l: updating spec/interface is something different from updating implementation
2014-08-10T16:07:34Z stack`: Theoretically yes.  However, try runing software from 5 years ago and see how that works out.
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2014-08-10T16:08:23Z p_l: try doing that on linux. Will fail horribly :)
2014-08-10T16:08:35Z stack`: Indeed.
2014-08-10T16:08:43Z p_l: (because GLIBC considers backward compat. to be a MS thing)
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2014-08-10T16:09:18Z stack`: Why linux is doing the Microsoft/Apple thing is a complete mystery to me.
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2014-08-10T16:09:45Z Bike: the microsoft/apple thing?
2014-08-10T16:10:09Z TomRS: when debuggin CLisp with breakpoints, I can browse deep into each variable used. I wonder how I can step back. Step into is return button, how can I step out?
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2014-08-10T16:11:27Z stack`: The microsoft/apple thing of pushing new crap down your throat just as the old crap is stable.
2014-08-10T16:12:13Z stack`: Ubuntu is pretty much garbage now, with the idiotic interface and desktop searches into the Amazon store.
2014-08-10T16:12:52Z p_l: stack`: MS thing is to keep running even horribly broken software as long as possible, which is partially why they got the marketshare they have
2014-08-10T16:13:10Z p_l: (*properly* written applications from windows 1.01 work on windows 7 32bit...)
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2014-08-10T16:15:12Z stack`: Try installing windows 1.01, however.  Or XP, at this point.
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2014-08-10T16:16:16Z p_l: stack`: my *hardware* doesn't support XP, not to mention 1.01, so it's a bit different ;)
2014-08-10T16:16:35Z stack`: What hardware do you use?
2014-08-10T16:16:52Z p_l: a thinkpad x230, in native mode
2014-08-10T16:17:15Z stack`: ??? Not an x86 machine?
2014-08-10T16:17:17Z p_l: meaning no IBM-PC emulation
2014-08-10T16:17:49Z p_l: it's still x86. It just boots in 64bit before I even reach lenovo logo on display
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2014-08-10T16:18:37Z stack`: Odd.
2014-08-10T16:19:36Z p_l: emulating a 1981-vintage IBM 5150 was more and more problematic, which is why at best a new PC will use a software emulator to boot OSes that require it
2014-08-10T16:19:57Z stack`: Anyway, I apologize for ranting and obscuring some poor soul's clisp question with my garbage.
2014-08-10T16:20:26Z p_l: TomRS: what implementation?
2014-08-10T16:20:35Z H4ns: p_l: clisp
2014-08-10T16:20:39Z TomRS: I think I found it already
2014-08-10T16:20:42Z p_l: (if it's GNU CLISP, can't help you there, though pjb might...)
2014-08-10T16:21:05Z p_l: H4ns: well, I'm used to people mixing up clisp the implementation with CL the language ;)
2014-08-10T16:21:05Z TomRS: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Inspector.html
2014-08-10T16:21:33Z stack`: I'm going to take CCL for a spin.
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2014-08-10T16:22:30Z TomRS: p_l: the l key takes me back one step (return from RET) :) thanks anyways!
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2014-08-10T16:49:47Z stack`: Does ccl just present the ? prompt normally?
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2014-08-10T16:50:05Z Bike: yes.
2014-08-10T16:50:34Z Bike: sbcl just gives you a *. simple things
2014-08-10T16:50:42Z stack`: Any quick advice on making CCL and SBCL coexist with emacs?
2014-08-10T16:51:22Z |3b|: are you asking how to use both with slime, or is slime itself the answer you are looking for?
2014-08-10T16:51:35Z Bike: yeah, the answer is mos def slime
2014-08-10T16:52:11Z Bike: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Multiple-Lisps.html
2014-08-10T16:52:14Z |3b|: for the former, look at slime-lisp-implementations variable in emacs/slime, and M-- M-x slime, or C-u M-x slime
2014-08-10T16:52:17Z stack`: I have emacs working with SBCL now.  Would like to keep the current setup, but be able to use CCL as well.
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2014-08-10T16:52:35Z Bike: yeah, check this link then.
2014-08-10T16:53:07Z Bike: basically M-x slime will do sbcl like it does now, and then M-- M-x slime ccl will get you ccl.
2014-08-10T16:53:26Z stack`: Looking at it now.  Thanks, that will help.
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2014-08-10T17:03:58Z stack`: What is a good way to tell if I am in ccl or SBCL from a slime REPL?
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2014-08-10T17:04:18Z stack`: Oh, I see it says *slime-repl ccl*, never mind.
2014-08-10T17:04:32Z p_l: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_lisp_i.htm <--- that's also usable from code in general
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2014-08-10T17:05:34Z stack`: That goes into my notes. Thanks.
2014-08-10T17:06:16Z Bike: shame how Joe's Lisp and Fish Emporium never really took off
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2014-08-10T17:10:37Z stack`: Man, CCL sure does start-up quickly!
2014-08-10T17:11:36Z p_l: stack`: it smaller image, so it loads quicker. Unless you have SSDs (or otherwise gonzo i/o) or pre-cached it, the difference is noticeable
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2014-08-10T17:17:02Z stack`: Is there a lisp-level profiler in CCL, like the one in SBCL?
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2014-08-10T17:35:13Z pjb`: stack`: what's nice with ccl is that it is well integrated with MacOSX: has an Objective-C bridge, has a MacOSX'ified hemlock, can generate .app packages, etc.
2014-08-10T17:37:43Z stack`: Sadly (or happily) not an Apple user.
2014-08-10T17:38:06Z pjb`: stack`: portable hemlock is usable, in the sense that you can type some text and save it to files.  But it is very bad ergonomically, compared to emacs or even ccl hemlock.  I guess a few weeks work on it could make it quite usable.  One thing that's quite bad is that it puts the minibuffer in a separate X windows, which is really painful in ratpoison.  You would want to port slime to it (make a slimh), and paredit!
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2014-08-10T17:40:23Z stack`: I am pretty happy with emacs for everyday use.  How did you guess I am interested in hemlock?  I am actually curious about being able to invoke hemlock from inside applications for tweaking...
2014-08-10T17:40:32Z pjb`: beach: I would do register allocation only after the data flow analysis, so it would only be constrained by the blocks (linear code sequences) and their relationships…
2014-08-10T17:40:52Z pjb`: stack`: I'm reading what you wrote here at 6 in the morning…
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2014-08-10T17:41:20Z stack`: You are wiser then I imagined :)
2014-08-10T17:42:44Z stack`: I am sad that there is no built-in profiler - although I am new at CL, I found myself using it quite a bit in SBCL.
2014-08-10T17:44:39Z pjb: minion: memo for Guthur: mind call-arguments-limit It can be as low as 30.  So yes, callers could be restricted to 15 keywords per call (the function could accept more, but you couldn't give them all at once, on all implementations).
2014-08-10T17:44:39Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Guthur when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-08-10T17:48:22Z pjb: AeroNotix: you should compare (symbol-name 'your-function) with the string you generate!
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2014-08-10T17:51:01Z pjb: AeroNotix: on the other hand, you could write macros in clojure to make it more common, and have a look at: https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/source/small-cl-pgms/intersection-r5rs-common-lisp-emacs-lisp/intersection-cl-el-r5rs.lisp
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2014-08-10T17:51:44Z pjb: H4ns: clojure doesn't have an edge in using more java library any more than ABCL!
2014-08-10T17:52:00Z pjb: CL wins here, since it can use CL libraries and Java libraries, while clojure only has java libraries.
2014-08-10T17:52:30Z pjb: You should use ABCL when you need to access java libraries.
2014-08-10T17:53:07Z pjb: And help make its deployability better, if it lacks there.
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2014-08-10T17:54:30Z pjb: stack`: there are several CL for Android:  ECL (cf. the Maxima app), ccl and mocl.  clisp should also be compilable on android, I don't know if anybody tried it yet.
2014-08-10T17:54:55Z pjb: and IIRC, sbcl has been ported recently to arm, so you could try it too.
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2014-08-10T17:56:42Z stack`: I just noticed that CCL is listed as android-compatible in CLiki.
2014-08-10T17:57:11Z stack`: However, just being able to run it may be misleading.  Can you get to the event queue?
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2014-08-10T17:57:33Z pjb: Indeed, it would be used only as a background process.
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2014-08-10T17:58:09Z pjb: To interface with the android system you will have to write some java code, and call the lisp thru the NDK as in mocl, or thru sockets.
2014-08-10T17:58:28Z stack`: Aye.
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2014-08-10T18:00:09Z pjb: The NDK is disappointing, since it doesn't provide an API to call the Android system from C or other language, but provides a way to do the opposite, to call C code from Java Android programs.
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2014-08-10T18:01:00Z stack`: One could make a 'shell app' that starts up and calls CL with events, I suppose.
2014-08-10T18:01:35Z stack`: It does suck though.
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2014-08-10T18:02:15Z stack`: You probably have to go full client-server with a CL backend.
2014-08-10T18:02:37Z pjb: Definitely. This is what you do with MoCL.
2014-08-10T18:02:49Z pjb: you could do the same with libecl.so.
2014-08-10T18:03:20Z pjb: For the other implementations, you would have to define a protocol and go thru pipes or sockets, if you wanted the lisp side to drive the Android system interactions.
2014-08-10T18:04:02Z pjb: You don't necessarily need to, once you gut out the core of an application, the remaining GUI stuff is rather thin. You can implement that in Java or Objective-C.
2014-08-10T18:04:15Z pjb: Well, I guess unless you're implementing an Yo app.
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2014-08-10T18:04:43Z pjb: If you're implementing something worth it, your lisp code will be a much higher percentage of the total code than the Java or Objective-C GUI layer.
2014-08-10T18:05:05Z stack`: I'm just dicking around, really.
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2014-08-10T18:07:16Z pjb: And now dalvik is replaced by yet another (JITC) run-time, so those VM are moving targets, that companies such as google or apple have much more resources than you to move them fast out of your reach.
2014-08-10T18:07:58Z pjb: Until you have a CL implementation that's easily retargetable to new VMs.
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2014-08-10T18:09:26Z pjb: TomRS: No, that's not the right syntax.
2014-08-10T18:09:28Z pjb: clhs defclass
2014-08-10T18:09:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcla.htm
2014-08-10T18:09:50Z pjb: TomRS: defclass class-name ({superclass-name}*) ({slot-specifier}*) [[class-option]]
2014-08-10T18:10:01Z pjb: TomRS: See, there are parentheses around {slot-specifier}*…
2014-08-10T18:10:46Z pjb: And slot options are :key value, not just value.
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2014-08-10T18:16:50Z pjb: TomRS: You cannot step from the clisp debugger.  You can inspect frames, variables, modify them, etc.  But the only restart that will let you run code is :c continue.  If you want to step you will have to call STEP explicitely, which you can do in the debugger, but this is like inserting new calls in the function at the (break) point.
2014-08-10T18:17:51Z pjb: With STEP, you have step into (:s step), step over form (:n next) and step over level (:o over) along with (:c continue)
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2014-08-10T18:20:32Z pjb: stack`: there's no functional STEP even in ccl!  For this I wrote cl-stepper.  You could extend cl-stepper easily enough to make it a profiler.
2014-08-10T18:20:47Z pjb: But there's already a portable lisp profiler IIRC.
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2014-08-10T18:21:43Z pjb: otherwise: http://ccl.clozure.com/ccl-documentation.html#Profiling
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2014-08-10T18:36:04Z MT`: Hi
2014-08-10T18:36:19Z MT`: Am I insane? http://mr.gy/seriously.js
2014-08-10T18:36:50Z pjb: Yes.  Or at least, in the wrong channel.
2014-08-10T18:37:07Z MT`: No I believe this is very lisp related
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2014-08-10T18:37:24Z MT`: Admittedly hard to tell lookinh just at the URI though
2014-08-10T18:37:24Z inklesspen: then yes, you are insane.
2014-08-10T18:37:38Z pjb: Then try #lispcafe or #lisp-lab.  #lisp is only for Common Lisp.
2014-08-10T18:38:02Z MT`: Imho it's CL related.
2014-08-10T18:38:24Z MT`: it is oriented after the spec
2014-08-10T18:38:44Z MT`: no guarantess for correctness or completess (ha) though
2014-08-10T18:38:46Z pjb: You need to implement a lisp reader so that you may run the same program in your implementation and in a CL implementation.
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2014-08-10T18:38:55Z pjb: Completeness is not required.  Correctness is.
2014-08-10T18:39:24Z MT`: pjb: I don't think correctness is possible (see parenscript et al)
2014-08-10T18:39:30Z wasamasa: pjb: both are pretty empty
2014-08-10T18:39:39Z pjb: Of course it is possible. Turing equivalence and all that!
2014-08-10T18:40:07Z MT`: practically speaking
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2014-08-10T18:40:44Z pjb: You could come and say: see I implemented a subset of CL: put (print (+ 2 3))  in example.js and load it along with clinjs.js and it will display 5 on the page.  But until you have such a subset of CL, it's not relevant here.
2014-08-10T18:40:54Z MT`: whats interesting to me is that I can hack parenscript fairly long
2014-08-10T18:40:54Z MT`: until I realize (not 0) => t
2014-08-10T18:41:11Z pjb: parenscript doesn't try to be a subset of CL.
2014-08-10T18:41:19Z pjb: (this might be regretable, I'd agree).
2014-08-10T18:41:33Z MT`: depends!
2014-08-10T18:41:45Z MT`: parenscript is fairly lightweight
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2014-08-10T18:41:53Z MT`: as opposed to e.g. CLojureScript
2014-08-10T18:42:00Z pjb: But really, #lisp-lab is for discussing alternative lisps and random lisp-like functions.
2014-08-10T18:42:05Z pjb: This is only for Common Lisp.
2014-08-10T18:42:17Z wasamasa: pjb: there are like four people on #lisp-lab
2014-08-10T18:42:29Z pjb: See: http://www.cliki.net/IRC
2014-08-10T18:42:43Z pjb: wasamasa: perhaps only four persons are interested in discussing non CL lisps…
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2014-08-10T18:42:52Z wasamasa: sounds reasonable
2014-08-10T18:43:32Z MT`: What I like to discuss is: I had a job writing JS, and I ended up implementing pieces of CL (thus seriously.js).
2014-08-10T18:43:39Z hotguy77: lisp should form some body to lobby for government software to be moved to free lisp software
2014-08-10T18:43:39Z hotguy77: like bar association
2014-08-10T18:44:12Z pjb: MT`: this is normal. I do the same when I write, eg. C programs.
2014-08-10T18:44:38Z MT`: Does that mean I wasted precious time refusing to learn the JS way or did I rightfully expand JS to work more effectively?
2014-08-10T18:44:41Z pjb: See for example: ftp://ftp.informatimago.com/users/pjb/lisp/ast.c
2014-08-10T18:44:56Z pjb: This means we should continue in #lisp-lab.
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2014-08-10T18:45:00Z MT`: HA! now you did it too
2014-08-10T18:45:02Z MT`: :p
2014-08-10T18:45:09Z pjb: Of course!
2014-08-10T18:45:28Z pjb: see http://www.informatimago.com/articles/life-saver.html
2014-08-10T18:46:39Z okcomputer: After the first chapter of a book I attempted to write a slightly more advanced "hello world" type function.  If anyone could critique my very basic code I would appreciate the input. http://paste.lisp.org/+32MA
2014-08-10T18:47:19Z pjb: okcomputer: your let form is not syntactical.
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2014-08-10T18:47:38Z pjb: You might want to ask your implementation what it thinks of your code before asking us.
2014-08-10T18:47:46Z okcomputer: pjb: is that why i get compile warnings?
2014-08-10T18:48:25Z okcomputer: pjb: what does asking the implementation mean?
2014-08-10T18:48:32Z pjb: Yes.
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2014-08-10T18:48:32Z plastic-houses: hm
2014-08-10T18:48:41Z pjb: It means compiling your lisp file with your lisp implementation.
2014-08-10T18:48:49Z pjb: Or trying the expression at the REPL.
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2014-08-10T18:49:17Z pjb: Type: (let z 2) at your REPL and see what it says.
2014-08-10T18:49:20Z plastic-houses: but who wants to program a turning machine?
2014-08-10T18:49:35Z okcomputer: pjb: I did, it runs as expected but with the compile warning
2014-08-10T18:49:40Z pjb: The same people who want to program in brainfuck.
2014-08-10T18:50:12Z pjb: okcomputer: I don't believe you.
2014-08-10T18:50:38Z pjb: Armed Bear Common Lisp         The value Z is not of type LIST.
2014-08-10T18:50:38Z pjb: Clozure Common Lisp            The value Z is not of the expected type LIST.
2014-08-10T18:50:38Z pjb: CLISP                          LET: variable list ends with the atom Z
2014-08-10T18:50:38Z pjb: CMU Common Lisp                --> TEST-FUN
2014-08-10T18:50:41Z pjb: ECL                            Z is not of type SEQUENCE.
2014-08-10T18:50:45Z pjb: SBCL                           --> TEST-FUN
2014-08-10T18:50:47Z pjb:  
2014-08-10T18:50:54Z pjb: This is what all the CL implementation I have on this machine think of your code!
2014-08-10T18:51:10Z pjb: Sorry if I believe them instead of you.
2014-08-10T18:51:51Z pjb: When calling the function, cmucl and sbcl say:
2014-08-10T18:51:51Z pjb: CMU Common Lisp                Type-error in KERNEL::OBJECT-NOT-LIST-ERROR-HANDLER:  Z is not of type LSBCL                           Execution of a form compiled with errors. Form:   (LET Z   (+ X Y)) Compile-time error:   Malformed LET bindings: Z.
2014-08-10T18:51:51Z pjb:  
2014-08-10T18:51:58Z wasamasa: clearly he's using FCL, the fictional CL implementation
2014-08-10T18:52:04Z pjb: okcomputer: So they're a little late, but still agree with the other implementations.
2014-08-10T18:52:33Z okcomputer: pjb: I just ran it again in the REPL, using sbcl
2014-08-10T18:53:11Z pjb: anyways
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2014-08-10T18:53:12Z pjb: clhs let
2014-08-10T18:53:13Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm
2014-08-10T18:53:16Z pjb: just check your syntax.
2014-08-10T18:53:33Z okcomputer: thanks
2014-08-10T18:53:58Z Bike: sbcl isn't giving you compile warnings, it's giving you compile errors. big difference
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2014-08-10T18:54:13Z pjb: Bike: this is not what I observe.
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2014-08-10T18:54:36Z Bike: it says "Compile-time error" in your output right there.
2014-08-10T18:54:56Z pjb: Well, then I have a bug in clall… Thanks for helping detect it.
2014-08-10T18:54:59Z Bike: i guess your multi implementation thing just gives you the value?
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2014-08-10T18:55:13Z pjb: When it detects an error, it says so (cf. the other implementations).
2014-08-10T18:55:17Z Bike: sbcl gives you a function, but tells you about compile time errors at the same time
2014-08-10T18:55:39Z pjb: yes, it doesn't signal an error, it just writes a message.
2014-08-10T18:55:48Z pjb: So it's not a bug in clall, it's a bug in cmucl and in sbcl.
2014-08-10T18:56:05Z pjb: Or perhaps there's some muffling activated.  I'll have to check.
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2014-08-10T18:57:16Z Bike: isn't it just the weirdness with how cl:compile does errors? (compile nil '(lambda () (let z 2))) gets you function, t, t
2014-08-10T18:57:29Z pjb: Not related to cl:compile, just eval in the REPL.
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2014-08-10T18:58:42Z Bike: well yeah, i mean, it's fine for that to get you a function, isn't it? you could have a real dumb implementation that just saves the body and doesn't look at it at all.
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2014-08-10T19:00:47Z pjb: Bike: perhaps it's conforming.
2014-08-10T19:01:00Z pjb: But it's not a sign of high quality.
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2014-08-10T19:15:23Z okcomputer: Is this a better expression? http://paste.lisp.org/+32MA/1
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2014-08-10T19:15:34Z Bike: no.
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2014-08-10T19:15:58Z okcomputer: damn
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2014-08-10T19:16:17Z Bike: you seem to be misunderstanding what let does. it's like this, you have (let (bindings*) body*). (z (+ x y)) would be a binding and (format t whatever) would be part of the body.
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2014-08-10T19:17:13Z okcomputer: Bike: thanks, i find the docs a little cryptic at this point
2014-08-10T19:17:15Z Bike: is that output fictional? don't do that
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2014-08-10T19:17:30Z Bike: the hyperspec page pjb linked is full of examples
2014-08-10T19:17:31Z stack`: (let ((a 1) ...) your code here )
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2014-08-10T19:18:06Z okcomputer: Bike: That came from the REPL, i'm not trying to impress anyone with my simple function
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2014-08-10T19:18:25Z Bike: i mean, your test-fun won't work, it's invalid syntax
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2014-08-10T19:18:57Z |3b|: it works if Z is a global variable with value 9, which it could be from previous attempts
2014-08-10T19:18:57Z resttime: when I try to run sdl2 basic test the window doesn't appear with SLIME
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2014-08-10T19:19:12Z Bike: oh, that's true i guess
2014-08-10T19:19:17Z resttime: when I run it with just CCL  it works
2014-08-10T19:19:19Z resttime: odd
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2014-08-10T19:19:39Z Bike: resttime: anything in *inferior-lisp*?
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2014-08-10T19:20:34Z stack`: pjb, re profilier in ccl - the linux system-level profiler seems like a big rigomorole.  I was hoping for SBCL-like light-weight profiling.
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2014-08-10T19:20:52Z resttime: yup, it says the window gets setup and mainloop begins etc.
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2014-08-10T19:21:08Z resttime: the window is running somewhere, i just can't seem to access it
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2014-08-10T19:21:36Z resttime: on Windows x64
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2014-08-10T19:25:38Z resttime: https://github.com/lispgames/cl-sdl2/issues/23
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2014-08-10T19:25:41Z resttime: :(
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2014-08-10T19:39:11Z resttime: pretty simple fix (sdl2:show-window)
2014-08-10T19:39:39Z okcomputer: Is this better: http://paste.lisp.org/+32MA/2
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2014-08-10T19:41:14Z Bike: no, the let has no body.
2014-08-10T19:41:41Z Bike: do (makunbound 'z) and try it again, you'll get compiler warnings.
2014-08-10T19:41:53Z okcomputer: thanks
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2014-08-10T19:42:44Z Bike: well, you should get an unused variable warning anyway. don't ignore that stuff!
2014-08-10T19:43:12Z Bike: oh, not if z is special. yeah makunbound that.
2014-08-10T19:43:38Z stack`: put the body, the format form, inside the outer parens.
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2014-08-10T19:44:24Z stack`: Inside the (let ((...))   )
2014-08-10T19:44:39Z okcomputer: Bike: thanks again
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2014-08-10T19:50:30Z stack`: okcomputer, the scope of the bindings established by your let form is limited to _inside_ the let form.  The outer parens, the one before the let and the closing one, limit the scope.
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2014-08-10T19:51:43Z resttime: calling (sdl2:show-cursor) crashes
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2014-08-10T19:53:17Z okcomputer: stack`: So basically I just need to keep my variable scope within the defined function?
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2014-08-10T19:57:16Z pjb: okcomputer: you should be careful with the syntax.
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2014-08-10T19:58:07Z pjb: let ({var | (var [init-form])}*) declaration* form* => result*   means  (let (var1 (var2) (var3 init-form)) (declare (something)) (declare (something-else)) (do-something) (do-something-else))
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2014-08-10T19:59:21Z okcomputer: pjb: I think I have the let function fixed, z is no longer an unbound variable but x and y now are
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2014-08-10T19:59:56Z pjb: x and y are parameters, so their scope is the function body.
2014-08-10T20:00:06Z pjb: Paste your new code.
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2014-08-10T20:02:24Z okcomputer: pjb: i missed an error msg, i have to take care of that
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2014-08-10T20:13:38Z resttime: https://github.com/lispgames/cl-sdl2/blob/master/src/sdl2.lisp
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2014-08-10T20:13:47Z resttime: under definition sdl-true-p
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2014-08-10T20:14:03Z resttime: (autowrap:enum-value 'sdl2-ffi:sdl-bool :true) returns nil for me
2014-08-10T20:14:54Z resttime: i don't think you can use #'= with nil
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2014-08-10T20:15:50Z resttime: i guess i found a bug in the sdl2 bindings?
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2014-08-10T20:17:01Z resttime: the example crashes everytime that gets called
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2014-08-10T20:19:48Z ejbs: resttime: Push an issue on github :)?
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2014-08-10T20:23:14Z resttime: i guess I will do that
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2014-08-10T20:23:32Z resttime: i think the problem has to do with autowrap:enum-value not working
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2014-08-10T20:24:21Z resttime: does the example in sdl2 crash for anyone else?
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2014-08-10T20:24:31Z resttime: when you press 's' or 'h'
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2014-08-10T20:25:45Z ejbs: resttime: How do I run the example?
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2014-08-10T20:26:01Z resttime: (sdl2-examples:basic-test)
2014-08-10T20:26:22Z resttime: sdl2-examples has to be quickloaded etc.
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2014-08-10T20:26:53Z ejbs: resttime: No crash when I type s or h
2014-08-10T20:27:22Z resttime: hmmm....
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2014-08-10T20:27:57Z resttime: can you run this for me (autowrap:foreign-enum-value 'sdl2-ffi:sdl-bool :true)  ?
2014-08-10T20:28:18Z resttime: oops i mean (autowrap:enum-value 'sdl2-ffi:sdl-bool :true)  ?
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2014-08-10T20:29:23Z pjb: resttime: there's more sdl2 knowledge in #lispgames
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2014-08-10T20:29:38Z AeroNotix: What's the name for things like ^H when I press C-DEL ?
2014-08-10T20:29:46Z pjb: #\backspace
2014-08-10T20:29:49Z resttime: pjb: alright I'll head over there, thanks
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2014-08-10T20:30:00Z AeroNotix: pjb: it's more of a general question, couldn't think of a good channel
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2014-08-10T20:30:22Z pjb: (char-name #\) --> "Backspace"
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2014-08-10T20:30:55Z pjb: Well, characters that display as ^x  are actually ASCII control codes.  ^x can be read as control-x.
2014-08-10T20:31:09Z AeroNotix: ascii control codes, that's what I was looking for
2014-08-10T20:31:22Z ejbs: resttime: Returns 1!
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2014-08-10T20:31:40Z kristof: zoinks
2014-08-10T20:31:43Z resttime: ejbs: aha
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2014-08-10T20:33:39Z dim: zoinks. been so long since I last read that, and then we used to spell it Zoinx ;-)
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2014-08-10T20:33:57Z kristof: Really? I say it all the time, in jest.
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2014-08-10T20:34:44Z dim: we even had invented a reverse acronym to use it as a project name
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2014-08-10T20:35:13Z dim: it was the time tracking and project progress tracking internal application, that everybody loved to hate using, so zoinx was a good name in a way
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2014-08-10T20:35:39Z dim: the hell if I remember what the acronym would expand to
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2014-08-10T20:36:23Z kristof: Sounds awful.
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2014-08-10T20:36:53Z dim: in a way, it was
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2014-08-10T20:37:59Z dim: a 3-tier solution, with our own internal "XML" docs/fragments database over Erlang Mnesia's distributed db, and Erlang middleware and a python Zope based web UI for the poor users --- yeah, it was done by the R&D team where I was an intern
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2014-08-10T20:38:31Z wasamasa: kristof: I pretty much finished writing a pet project I could have implemented in common lisp instead
2014-08-10T20:38:33Z dim: I did produce "spyerl", an Erlang/Python two ways communication layer which I was pretty happy with, having about no real world programming experience then ;-)
2014-08-10T20:38:37Z wasamasa: kristof: judge me
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2014-08-10T20:38:55Z kristof: wasamasa: Not going to judge. What matters is that you wrote it. :P What was it?
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2014-08-10T20:39:26Z wasamasa: kristof: I rewrote the relevant parts of kcc to have a slightly better and faster version
2014-08-10T20:39:28Z kristof: dim: The more you go on, the worse it sounds
2014-08-10T20:39:43Z dim: kristof: yeah, that's why I did continue ;-)
2014-08-10T20:39:57Z dim: it's good to have those memories, that really helps not doing it again
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2014-08-10T20:40:06Z kristof: :)
2014-08-10T20:40:15Z wasamasa: kristof: I bet I could do this in half the lines in CL: http://ix.io/dPT/rb
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2014-08-10T20:40:39Z kristof: wasamasa: At 200 lines, it doesn't really matter
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2014-08-10T20:42:04Z wasamasa: kristof: you're clearly not zealous enough for this channel
2014-08-10T20:42:13Z kristof: wasamasa: Don't worry, I have my moments.
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2014-08-10T20:42:39Z kristof: wasamasa: I have no qualms with the expressiveness of Ruby. What I dislike is how *slow* it is, and the fact that it's single threaded.
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2014-08-10T20:42:45Z dim: damn. http://web.archive.org/web/20040312112055/http://www.idealx.org/prj/idx-spyerl/dist/
2014-08-10T20:43:02Z wasamasa: kristof: I doubt this is going to matter if I'm IO-bound
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2014-08-10T20:43:25Z kristof: wasamasa: Right, which is why scripting gets away with interpreter based languages :)
2014-08-10T20:43:28Z wasamasa: kristof: what I would like though would be a more idiomatic way for handling this file business
2014-08-10T20:43:38Z kristof: But then people do scientific computation in python and I think "golly, but why?"
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2014-08-10T20:44:19Z wasamasa: well, everything relevant is C/FORTRAN wrappers anyways, so
2014-08-10T20:44:21Z wasamasa: why not
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2014-08-10T20:45:13Z kristof: That is a good point. If I were writing something performance critical with CL as the higher-level language I'd be calling C code as well.
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2014-08-10T20:45:36Z kristof: Or, Rust, actually, which is ABI compatible with C. ...oh wow
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2014-08-10T20:45:53Z prxq: kristof: actually, you can write pretty fast code in cl too
2014-08-10T20:45:53Z pjb: kristof: why? Lisp implementations generate code that runs faster than C implementations!
2014-08-10T20:46:01Z dim: HISTORY To be written.
2014-08-10T20:46:07Z kristof: prxq: Sometimes.
2014-08-10T20:46:10Z dim loves reading old resources ;-)
2014-08-10T20:46:14Z Shinmera: faster than see
2014-08-10T20:46:16Z pjb: kristof: and you can furthermore optimize, by generating code at run-time, elaborated from symbolic resolutions.
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2014-08-10T20:46:29Z prxq: kristof: actually, pretty consistently so.
2014-08-10T20:46:56Z kristof: pjb: It's easier to add things than it is to peel things away. Optimizing CL code involves thinking very carefully about what CL does *for* you and then explicitly removing it.
2014-08-10T20:46:57Z prxq: if it doesn't exist or is not too much work to implement, I'd choose writing it in CL any day.
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2014-08-10T20:47:18Z pjb: And it's quite natural, given that the C preprocessor throws away a lot of information, and that the type system of C is very rudimentary.  There's no way a C compiler can generate code running faster than high level language compilers.
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2014-08-10T20:47:49Z kristof: pjb: Which is why I'd actually prefer to write the most critical stuff in Rust!
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2014-08-10T20:48:06Z kristof: But for expressiveness, and glue code, I'd choose CL any day.
2014-08-10T20:48:08Z prxq: kristof: that's not my experience. Usually it's pretty easy to get things fast once they work.
2014-08-10T20:48:16Z kristof: pjb: Want to see an ugly Rust macro?
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2014-08-10T20:48:38Z pjb: not really.
2014-08-10T20:48:41Z pjb: not now.
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2014-08-10T20:49:13Z kristof: Ah, okay. It's an awful little thing and speaks to the power you get when the language you use to transform code is the same language you use to transform runtime data.
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2014-08-10T20:51:55Z dim: kristof: I'm game if you have an URL of that beast?
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2014-08-10T20:52:05Z kristof: dim: https://github.com/sfackler/syntax-ext-talk/blob/gh-pages/simple-ext/lib.rs
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2014-08-10T20:52:26Z kristof: dim: A lot of the ugliness comes from comma deliminating stuff.
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2014-08-10T20:52:42Z okcomputer: This time my only warning was that I was redefining the function. Better?  http://paste.lisp.org/+32MA/3
2014-08-10T20:52:56Z dim: well they have a syntax, which nowadays I find quite a sign of lack of taste
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2014-08-10T20:53:43Z dim: I guess I need some more years doing lisps (elisp, CL for now, scheme and PLT are almost scheduled already) before I grow over disliking any sort of syntax that's not just S-exps
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2014-08-10T20:54:01Z kristof: dim: In common lisp, it's basically a call to three functions. Sort the literal list representation in your source, then make a vector from the list.
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2014-08-10T20:54:24Z kristof: dim: the third function/macro is merely... defmacro. :)
2014-08-10T20:54:37Z kristof: dim: All this macro-registrar business is mightily irritating.
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2014-08-10T20:54:58Z ejbs: okcomputer: That warning is normal :), it's because you've already defined that function before
2014-08-10T20:55:00Z dim: yeah, it reads as a reader macro (dealing with the parsing)
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2014-08-10T20:55:47Z dim: I don't know what you need Rust for, but maybe you could produce the Rust code as a CL compiler target? ;-)
2014-08-10T20:55:49Z kristof: dim: I don't mind syntaxes. What I mind is having to parse them. Distinguished syntax objects with functions for traversing their functions is a good idea. The reason macros are so eeeeeasy in CL is because we're using a distinguished syntax object with a tremendous amount of prebuilt operations.
2014-08-10T20:55:59Z kristof: *traversing their structure
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2014-08-10T20:56:34Z okcomputer: ejbs: Is the rest considered proper lisp style and syntax?
2014-08-10T20:56:38Z dim: yeah, generating code with `(lambda () (let ((foo ,whatever)) ...)) is quite the awesome, and macros are easy enough
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2014-08-10T20:57:08Z dim: I can't make any sense of the scheme around that Rust code here, tho
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2014-08-10T20:57:12Z kristof: dim: No, a reader-macro reads a character and then dispatches a function. That's simple, simple, simple. :)
2014-08-10T20:57:53Z ejbs: okcomputer: I'm honestly unsure which code I'm supposed to read :/
2014-08-10T20:57:53Z dim: yeah, I meant their macro thingy looks like both the parser, a reader macro or just a way to register one maybe, and the dispatcher, etc
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2014-08-10T20:58:19Z kristof: okcomputer: Alllllmost. The format should be indented into the body of the LET.
2014-08-10T20:58:20Z dim: well I don't know what I meant other that "spaghetti, can't make sense of it, have to read much before I hope I could do"
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2014-08-10T20:58:34Z kristof: okcomputer: Oops! I misread. You're fine. :)
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2014-08-10T20:58:35Z ejbs: okcomputer: Oh right, the fourth attempt. D'oh
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2014-08-10T21:00:09Z kristof: okcomputer: No, uh, it's wrong.
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2014-08-10T21:00:56Z okcomputer: kristof: with no errors, i can't determine what to fix...
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2014-08-10T21:01:12Z kristof: okcomputer: Let takes firstly an alist. That alist should contain bindings. Then, it evaluates the remaining forms.
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2014-08-10T21:02:07Z kristof: okcomputer: So it's looking at the very first list that you have (z) and says "oh look, a binding!". And then the (+ x y) is seen as a form to evaluate. But z never gets bound to + x y
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2014-08-10T21:02:54Z kristof: okcomputer: So what you want is (let ((z (+ x y))) FORMS*), where FORMS* are all the forms you want to evaluate with z in scope
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2014-08-10T21:04:52Z kristof: dim: Maybe you noticed, but sometimes I'll say things in this channel which sound like I'm against the language or the culture, but the truth is that deep down, no other programming language satisfies me as much as this one does, because of its 1) philosophy 2) completeness and 3) utility
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2014-08-10T21:05:19Z okcomputer: kristof: so basically, x y and z need to be within the same scope?
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2014-08-10T21:05:55Z kristof: dim: The philosophy is really, tremendously important. I asked in #haskell the other day how to add a documentation string to a function. Someone told me "just write a comment after the type signature." Shows very clearly what their priorities are.
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2014-08-10T21:06:06Z dim: kristof: I'm trying to pretend I'm not all deep into the same situation already, I would add 4) community
2014-08-10T21:06:15Z dim: s/all/already/
2014-08-10T21:06:25Z dim: pff, tired.
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2014-08-10T21:07:05Z dim: I'd like that the strenghs of CL to be more known
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2014-08-10T21:07:52Z dim: I'm tired of people telling me about how much they prefer static typing or OOP or that they don't like FP so much and they think it's relevant to having an educated opinion about lisp
2014-08-10T21:07:53Z kristof: dim: I don't like Paul Graham's writings (too myopic and zealous) but I really like his sentiment that Lisp is like an arc; all the little pieces fit together and the whole is beautiful
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2014-08-10T21:08:07Z dim: +1 to that, yeah
2014-08-10T21:08:32Z ejbs: dim: Whaddya like about the community?
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2014-08-10T21:08:48Z dim: I used to like PG writing, but it got a little too presomptuous and boring for me after a (short) while
2014-08-10T21:08:51Z kristof: dim: Lisp isn't a functional programming language anymore, because the term has a more specific (and more useful) meaning. ML and Haskell are functional languages. Lisp is, as Doug Hoyte wrote, a procedural abstration language, which is more interesting and more useful to me.
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2014-08-10T21:09:21Z dim: ejbs: that knowlegeable gurus are available and polite and helping, either here or on c.l.l
2014-08-10T21:09:31Z kristof: cll?
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2014-08-10T21:09:36Z kristof: comp.lang.lisp
2014-08-10T21:09:37Z dim: the newsgroup
2014-08-10T21:09:37Z kristof: right
2014-08-10T21:09:48Z kristof: The troll that presides there is really irritating.
2014-08-10T21:09:55Z dim: the amount and quality of help I got really is tremendous
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2014-08-10T21:10:06Z dim: he's easy enough to recognize and ignore
2014-08-10T21:10:14Z wasamasa: who?
2014-08-10T21:10:19Z ejbs: WJ?
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2014-08-10T21:10:57Z kristof: He does serve a public good, though. He points out poorly written code and then writes it more concisely... and because CL is actually as expressive as the languages he touts, they're useful to people writing CL. :)
2014-08-10T21:10:59Z AeroNotix: is comp.lang.lisp worth subbing to?
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2014-08-10T21:11:35Z kristof: no more than #lisp is worth idling in and planet lisp is worth subscribing to. So if what I just listed interests you, then the answer is yes.
2014-08-10T21:11:47Z AeroNotix: Hmm
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2014-08-10T21:12:18Z kristof: I like planet lisp compared to, say, planet clojure and planet haskell. Planet haskell has too much abstract nonsense in it, and planet clojure is full of, uh, web hipsters.
2014-08-10T21:12:18Z ejbs: AeroNotix: You need a good filter function though ;-)
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2014-08-10T21:12:38Z AeroNotix: ejbs: I rarely sub to programming related MLs because of exactly this
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2014-08-10T21:13:33Z dim: kristof: I agree that CL isn't FP btw, I'm just sad that lots of devels will just not even look at what it is because it's "known" to be FP
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2014-08-10T21:13:49Z dim: plus, of course, they "know" they don't want FP
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2014-08-10T21:14:07Z AeroNotix: dim: do you really need to convince people?
2014-08-10T21:14:11Z kristof: AeroNotix: planet lisp's content almost always consists of 1) interesting implementation details from compiler writers like Christopher Roades 2) community announcements and 3) neat problems solved in neat ways.
2014-08-10T21:14:22Z AeroNotix: kristof: oh that sounds good actually
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2014-08-10T21:14:59Z kristof: dim: I try not to fraternize with people who have no idea what I mean when I say that a method is just a function which parameterizes on an object's class
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2014-08-10T21:15:34Z dim: AeroNotix: I need not to convince them that lisp is good for them, but that doing lisp in 2014 is a sane choice *for me* (because sometimes thoses guys are my customers and I'm delivering lisp written code to them)
2014-08-10T21:15:48Z dim: fortunately it's easy enough to show them around why lisp is a sane choice
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2014-08-10T21:16:13Z AeroNotix: dim: why is lisp a sane choice for you?
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2014-08-10T21:16:26Z kristof: Because if they saw that, they would suddenly ask "well, why can't I also parameterize on the other arguments, too?" Which would be multiple dispatch. Which Oracle deems "not OO".
2014-08-10T21:16:43Z dim: kristof: hehe, that's a nice way to spell it! I've switched to talking about multiple dipatch myself, and about APIs and generic functions
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2014-08-10T21:17:14Z dim: but it's not as direct, lots of devs that want to do OOP have no idea about generic functions or why not having methods live inside a class
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2014-08-10T21:17:24Z kristof: AeroNotix: Probably because he's in charge of the project and on the internet, no one knows you're using Lisp.
2014-08-10T21:17:36Z dim: AeroNotix: for all the reasons kristof mentioned already, plus the REPL and performances
2014-08-10T21:17:41Z AeroNotix: cool, ok
2014-08-10T21:17:57Z dim: seriously I won't code in a language without a REPL anymore
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2014-08-10T21:18:04Z kristof: dim: I once told a friend of mine that static classes were idiotic. he then proclaimed "but how the hell am I going to organize my functions?"
2014-08-10T21:18:13Z dim: and pgloader and pginstall users shouldn't have to know it's written in lisp, that's true too
2014-08-10T21:18:19Z AeroNotix: Yes the REPL really is quite advanced. $DAYJOB is 99% Erlang and though people tout the fact you can do "hot code reloading" the REPL is genuinely a very poor tool. It's infuriating
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2014-08-10T21:18:33Z dim: kristof: AHAH. *exactly*. I love the drumkit example too
2014-08-10T21:18:41Z kristof: Drumkit?
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2014-08-10T21:18:58Z dim: yeah it's a nice classic OOP design trick question
2014-08-10T21:19:04Z kristof: Oh, right
2014-08-10T21:19:11Z dim: like interview level, you want to see the reasonning, not really the answer
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2014-08-10T21:19:53Z kristof: dim: Peter Seibel used it in his book, right
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2014-08-10T21:20:10Z dim: you have drums/toms of different sizes and different kinds of.. ok
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2014-08-10T21:21:02Z dim: so where to implement the "sound" method is the trick question I like, and I've seen dead-set OOP practitionner argue that of course it should be a virtual method on the "drumkit" abstract class that both drums and sticks inheritate from
2014-08-10T21:21:26Z dim: then it's quite complex to explain that their solution only exists because their tooling is too poor
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2014-08-10T21:21:41Z kristof: Virtual methods! Kill me now.
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2014-08-10T21:22:22Z dim: yeah. abstract classes?
2014-08-10T21:22:30Z kristof: Are fine.
2014-08-10T21:22:35Z dim: then usually I try to explain conditions and restarts
2014-08-10T21:22:40Z kristof: Oh, that's a good one.
2014-08-10T21:22:48Z kristof: "What do you mean, don't unwind the stack?"
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2014-08-10T21:22:54Z dim: ahah, yeah
2014-08-10T21:22:59Z dim: I had those moments not that long ago
2014-08-10T21:23:16Z dim: and I'm fond of trying to explain handler-case and handler-bind
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2014-08-10T21:23:39Z kristof: mhmm
2014-08-10T21:23:49Z dim: and also where to implement the error handling code in a lib, because with exceptions, when you've raised, what's next? can you retry or just try something else in the app? etc
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2014-08-10T21:23:50Z AeroNotix: what do you gain from proselytizing?
2014-08-10T21:23:54Z ejbs: On that note: Why can't we just save the relevant data in the Exception-object and unroll the stack anyway?
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2014-08-10T21:24:11Z ejbs: Because it increases code complexity which needs to deal with restarting at a certain point?
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2014-08-10T21:24:28Z kristof: AeroNotix: Neither of us are proselytizing right now because we're both converted. Heh.
2014-08-10T21:24:36Z AeroNotix: kristof: I mean when you are proselytizing to someone
2014-08-10T21:24:42Z kristof: AeroNotix: Oh, you mean dim and his friends.
2014-08-10T21:24:42Z AeroNotix: What's in it for you guys?
2014-08-10T21:24:44Z dim: AeroNotix: that people get it that CL actually is a modern programming language with advanced solutions to all the design problems they're used to have to solve, only more powerful that the ones they are forced into using --- IOW, respect of the CL choice as being pragmatic in 2014
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2014-08-10T21:25:06Z AeroNotix: dim: how many people listen to you and then go on to learn CL in a meaninful way?
2014-08-10T21:25:16Z dim: I don't know, that's not the goal
2014-08-10T21:25:22Z AeroNotix: because I used to try this, and it has never worked. Maybe I'm not that convincing.
2014-08-10T21:25:25Z kristof: AeroNotix: I think it's a good idea to always be dissatisfied with everything you have. Otherwise, nothing gets better. I'm never trying to get people to use CL, only question why their language doesn't do this, that, or the other thing.
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2014-08-10T21:25:34Z dim: the goal is for them to stop thinking that CL is for strange people with a taste in archeology and history
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2014-08-10T21:25:52Z H4ns: dim: but it is.
2014-08-10T21:25:54Z kristof: Computing history is really, really fascinating, though.
2014-08-10T21:25:55Z AeroNotix: dim: kristof: I do this with coworkers and they openly laugh in my face that lisp is a ridiculous language.
2014-08-10T21:26:01Z dim: kristof: agreed
2014-08-10T21:26:03Z kristof: (incf H4ns)
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2014-08-10T21:26:09Z dim: H4ns: it is not *only* that
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2014-08-10T21:26:33Z dim: AeroNotix: do you get to commit lisp code at work?
2014-08-10T21:26:37Z AeroNotix: dim: Clojure
2014-08-10T21:26:41Z Shinmera: dim: but it certainly is a large part and it's not surprising that people would rather look at shiny new things than stuff their grandparents used
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2014-08-10T21:26:52Z dim: AeroNotix: do you find it Cloje enough (cough)
2014-08-10T21:26:56Z H4ns: dim: programming language choice is mostly fad driven and arbitrary.  rarely is it the result of ratio and reasoning.
2014-08-10T21:27:03Z AeroNotix: dim: close enough to what?
2014-08-10T21:27:08Z AeroNotix: (incf H4ns)
2014-08-10T21:27:15Z dim: to CL, assuming you would prefer CL
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2014-08-10T21:27:22Z H4ns: dim: and if the choice is made due to ratio and reasoning, it won't be cl in most, if not all circumstances
2014-08-10T21:27:23Z dim: H4ns: fad driven?
2014-08-10T21:27:42Z AeroNotix: dim: I'm half and half with what I prefer. There are many features of Clojure I really, really appreciate, others not so much.
2014-08-10T21:27:48Z H4ns: dim: fashions.  like "i've heard the cool kids do coffeescript, let's try that"
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2014-08-10T21:27:52Z dim: oh, yeah
2014-08-10T21:27:59Z dim: that's true, and mostly a problem
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2014-08-10T21:28:17Z AeroNotix: dim: and lisp has a bad reputation with these cool kids, thus it's a hard cycle to break
2014-08-10T21:28:22Z H4ns: dim: and then they try it, invest in learning and because of their own investment, they believe that their decision was rational.
2014-08-10T21:28:32Z kristof: Not in my experience.
2014-08-10T21:28:38Z AeroNotix: Even when presented with clear evidence, I doubt most peopl get past the "syntax"
2014-08-10T21:28:46Z H4ns: dim: when it rarely has been made accidential and their only defense is their own investment.
2014-08-10T21:28:48Z kristof: I know a lot of people who try it, find some of the weird parts, and then get upset because of libraries.
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2014-08-10T21:28:50Z dim: in my case I did choose CL out of ratio and reasonning and it's important to me that people believe it wasn't just random, or that I'm not totally stupid... maybe I'll grow over that too, not there yet
2014-08-10T21:28:52Z AeroNotix: H4ns is right
2014-08-10T21:29:08Z AeroNotix: with respect to people thinking the time they invested in something is meaninful and therefore the correct way to go
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2014-08-10T21:29:24Z dim: that's the classic poker hand problem
2014-08-10T21:29:32Z AeroNotix: losing this egotistical attachment to your own learning allows you to reach yet higher planes of learning and self-education
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2014-08-10T21:29:56Z H4ns: dim: it is easy to chose cl if you are the only person who decides.  much less so if you get other people and non-technical aspects into the equation
2014-08-10T21:30:01Z dim: there's a point where you can see that your hand is not a winner, and that's when to stop bidding, but if you've lost that much cash, maybe you don't want to accept it's lost
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2014-08-10T21:30:25Z dim: H4ns: agreed, totally
2014-08-10T21:30:41Z H4ns: all that said, i love cl
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2014-08-10T21:30:48Z AeroNotix: Agreed.
2014-08-10T21:30:53Z H4ns: :D
2014-08-10T21:31:03Z kristof: I don't think I love CL. I'm just relieved to use it.
2014-08-10T21:31:03Z dim: H4ns: what I'm trying to get to is a point where I can convince other, when it makes sense, to consider CL for what it is rather than what they think they know about it
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2014-08-10T21:31:42Z AeroNotix: dim: good luck with that !
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2014-08-10T21:31:48Z dim: yeah
2014-08-10T21:31:51Z H4ns: dim: i've given up on that.  i am happy for everyone who discovers it and likes it.  i don't see it as my mission to press people into my beliefs.
2014-08-10T21:31:56Z dim: I'm not bored trying yet
2014-08-10T21:31:56Z kristof: Everything that frustrates me doesn't exist here. "Phew, method combinations. Phew, named arguments. Phew, optional arguments. Phew, macros to remove boilerplate. Phew, REPL."
2014-08-10T21:32:01Z AeroNotix: H4ns: this
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2014-08-10T21:32:27Z H4ns: dim: other, much smarter people have failed with that, so i won't succeed
2014-08-10T21:32:29Z AeroNotix: macros are the killer for me, it basically means syntax truly, truly doesn't matter at all
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2014-08-10T21:32:38Z dim: H4ns: I still believe that I'm only trying to unveil what CL is to them rather than trying to convince them to use it
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2014-08-10T21:32:50Z H4ns: AeroNotix: yeah.  you can mess up the language in any way that you want :)
2014-08-10T21:32:58Z AeroNotix: dim: blub programmers
2014-08-10T21:33:04Z AeroNotix: H4ns: Exactly!
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2014-08-10T21:33:21Z AeroNotix: dim: when you explain restarts to people, do they always understand it?
2014-08-10T21:33:30Z dim: kristof: ahah, I still remember when asked to add back support for "ragged CSV files" to pgloader, and it was an &rest away (because I happened to already be using destructuring-bind in that code path)
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2014-08-10T21:33:48Z AeroNotix: I can't imagine someone truly seeing the use-case for restarts straight away
2014-08-10T21:34:03Z dim: AeroNotix: almost never, but mainly because I don't think I understand it well enough yet to be able to explain it
2014-08-10T21:34:04Z kristof: Uhhhhh, if they've ever thrown an exception, they will see it
2014-08-10T21:34:05Z AeroNotix: and even then, it means unwinding a lot of preconceptions about program structure to put them into use
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2014-08-10T21:34:49Z dim: my explaining is limited to asking where do you code the error handling code, and how do you arrange it of the library wants to offer it nicely to the app
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2014-08-10T21:35:28Z dim: like the famous config file and the "please create an empty one for me" restart when it's not found
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2014-08-10T21:36:01Z AeroNotix: My colleague is really giving lisp a go, I'm quite proud to be honest.
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2014-08-10T21:36:13Z dim: hehe, awesome
2014-08-10T21:36:14Z kristof: Good for him! Hopefully you ran him through all the good stuff.
2014-08-10T21:36:15Z AeroNotix: Got there via Clojure
2014-08-10T21:36:23Z Shinmera: I've managed to get a couple of my friends to start learning CL and we're all having a good time.
2014-08-10T21:36:25Z AeroNotix: kristof: I hope so
2014-08-10T21:36:27Z kristof: Well, he's already 99% there for all intents and purposes.
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2014-08-10T21:36:44Z AeroNotix: kristof: the remaining features are quite esoteric and not directly what I think Lisp truly is
2014-08-10T21:36:49Z AeroNotix: but I guess that's objective any way
2014-08-10T21:37:06Z kristof: ASDF3 is a godsend compared to lein
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2014-08-10T21:37:20Z kristof: Thank you, Fare
2014-08-10T21:37:28Z dim: I'm not that comfy in getting people to try lisp for themselved, I would say it took me about 2 years to feel comfortable with 80% of the basic blocs in CL...
2014-08-10T21:37:28Z AeroNotix: Lein is great compared to a lot of the shitty tools out there for this kind of thing
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2014-08-10T21:38:34Z AeroNotix: gah I'm having trouble thinking of ways to convert gdk key press events into pretty strings...
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2014-08-10T21:39:03Z AeroNotix: I get a list of masks, like control, shift and then a string of chars that were pressed. Could be an ASCII control code, or the true string, depending
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2014-08-10T21:42:38Z ejbs: dim: Lol, just saw http://pgloader.io/ video at about 1:55, funny!
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2014-08-10T21:42:50Z dim: hehe thanks
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2014-08-10T21:44:34Z kristof: dim: nice website
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2014-08-10T21:45:21Z AeroNotix: I really dislike the comparison that it's massively faster, surely you wrote it better the second time round?
2014-08-10T21:45:28Z dim: thx. hand made, bootstrap makes it easy nowadays
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2014-08-10T21:45:42Z AeroNotix: any time you write software twice, unless you're an unbelievable idiot then it will be faster/better.
2014-08-10T21:45:52Z dim: AeroNotix: of course I did, but still, python is dog slow and has no threading support nor async IO
2014-08-10T21:45:57Z dim: at least not back when I used it
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2014-08-10T21:46:10Z AeroNotix: dim: it's got threads, they're just handicapped
2014-08-10T21:46:22Z dim: the GIL means that basically there's not threading
2014-08-10T21:46:47Z AeroNotix: If the threads are just doing computations, not IO.
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2014-08-10T21:47:33Z resttime: https://github.com/lispgames/cl-sdl2/issues/27
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2014-08-10T21:47:37Z kristof: dim: There are green threads in Python (M:1), machine threads (1:N), but for some reason, no M:N lightweight threading. Boggles my mind.
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2014-08-10T21:50:38Z drmeister: What is the point of COPY-LIST when we have COPY_SEQ?   Is it just an optimization?
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2014-08-10T21:51:31Z H4ns: drmeister: copy-list is just older
2014-08-10T21:51:50Z Xach: drmeister: copy-list handles improper lists.
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2014-08-10T21:52:00Z Xach: dotted lists, rather.
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2014-08-10T21:52:14Z Xach: I don't know if that's the point, but that's a difference.
2014-08-10T21:52:16Z drmeister: Xach: And copy-sequence doesnt?
2014-08-10T21:52:31Z Xach: drmeister: "Should be prepared to signal an error of type type-error if sequence is not a proper sequence."
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2014-08-10T21:52:36Z drmeister: I see - copy-sequence takes a proper-sequences.
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2014-08-10T21:54:26Z pjb: drmeister: indeed, there are a lot of legacy functions in CL.
2014-08-10T21:54:38Z drmeister: I'm eliminating C++ multiple inheritance from my C++ class hierarchy - it's absolute poison for garbage collection.   I understand why Java has/had only single inheritance.
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2014-08-10T21:55:18Z kristof: drmeister: Why is it poison?
2014-08-10T21:55:25Z drmeister: I had mirrored the CL class hierarchy in C++.  So my Vector_O inherited from Array_O and Sequence_O C++ classes.   It's a bad idea.
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2014-08-10T21:55:43Z pjb: drmeister: notice that copy-list copies dotted lists while copy-seq should signal a type-error on them.
2014-08-10T21:55:51Z drmeister: C++ multiple inheritance requires virtual inheritance which requires internal pointers which is poison for GC.
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2014-08-10T21:56:03Z kristof: Okay, that's understandable.
2014-08-10T21:56:08Z pjb: drmeister: and notice that  (copy-seq x) ==  (subseq x 0).
2014-08-10T21:56:34Z drmeister: I implemented copy-sequence in terms of (subseq XXX 0 nil)
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2014-08-10T21:56:36Z pjb: But otherwise, they can indeed share a subroutine.
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2014-08-10T21:58:55Z drmeister: Another problem with using C++ multiple inheritance that you only discover after spending a year implementing everything is that it causes serious problems with the Memory Pool System garbage collector.
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2014-08-10T21:59:27Z AeroNotix: is there a function for getting the char associated with the http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw61/CLHS/Body/02_ac.htm given its integer value?
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2014-08-10T22:00:49Z drmeister: MPS uses hardware read barriers.  When you are scanning pointers you have to dynamic_cast every pointer to the base address.  dynamic_cast requires read access to memory.  read access to memory requires that you lift the hardware read barriers and then restore them.  That, for some reason, really screws up MPS to the point where it spends >99% of it's time spinning its wheels in mprotect.
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2014-08-10T22:01:30Z drmeister: This is my current hypothesis which I'm testing by eliminating multiple inheritance.
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2014-08-10T22:07:48Z resttime: well i'm an idiot, grabbing the latest autowrap and sdl2 bindings from the github repos fixes things
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2014-08-10T22:08:36Z resttime: quicklisp versions of the repo had the problem
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2014-08-10T22:09:45Z resttime: learned my lesson today about going to the latest Github repos if I got a problem with the quicklisp ones
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2014-08-10T22:31:47Z pjb: AeroNotix: if there's one, it would be found in the character dictionary, chapter 13.
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2014-08-10T22:34:08Z AeroNotix: pjb: thanks friend
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2014-08-10T22:34:40Z AeroNotix: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxiYnJ_JfRQ trying to do this, using (code-char) at the moment, which is implementation specific
2014-08-10T22:34:42Z AeroNotix: pjb: ^
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2014-08-10T22:36:29Z pjb: AeroNotix: indeed, it seems very iffy.
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2014-08-10T22:36:45Z pjb: You should make a keyboard translation table just like emacs does.
2014-08-10T22:36:52Z AeroNotix: pjb: hmm?
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2014-08-10T22:37:06Z pjb: to map xkeysyms to character and modifiers combos.
2014-08-10T22:37:14Z AeroNotix: oh, that just seemed like a hack
2014-08-10T22:37:22Z AeroNotix: I guess if emacs does it, I'll pay more attention to that idea
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2014-08-10T22:37:50Z pjb: Also have a look to input methods and set-keyboard-coding-system
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2014-08-10T22:38:09Z AeroNotix: pjb: thanks, will do
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2014-08-11T00:04:29Z paul0: how can I find methods I can use with XPATH:NODE-SET data?
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2014-08-11T00:05:51Z |3b|: look at documentation, or inspect the class object?
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2014-08-11T00:15:06Z paul0: |3b|, couldn't find any link to the API documentation for cxml, http://common-lisp.net/project/cxml/index.html
2014-08-11T00:15:23Z paul0: |3b|, trying to figure out how to find the applicable methods for XPATH:NODE-SET
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2014-08-11T01:00:20Z Guthur: paul0: you could check all the exported symbols for the relevant package and make some guesses
2014-08-11T01:00:20Z minion: Guthur, memo from pjb: mind call-arguments-limit It can be as low as 30.  So yes, callers could be restricted to 15 keywords per call (the function could accept more, but you couldn't give them all at once, on all implementations).
2014-08-11T01:03:54Z Guthur: pjb: i'll keep the call-arguments-limit in mind, I hope it wont get to 30+ args.
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2014-08-11T02:16:00Z stack`: Hello?
2014-08-11T02:16:38Z Bike: need something?
2014-08-11T02:16:49Z stack`: Sorry, I thought my ERC crashed.
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2014-08-11T02:21:37Z pjb: stack`: Use the #test channel for tests.
2014-08-11T02:23:12Z stack`: Apologies.  Anyone got CCL examples working on linux?  I keep getting Undefined function OPEN-SHARED-LIBRARY called with arguments ("libGL.so") ; the library is there according to ldconfig
2014-08-11T02:25:07Z stack`: That's when loading ccl/examples/opengl-ffi.lisp
2014-08-11T02:25:36Z Xach: stack`: what is the value of *package* when you load it?
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2014-08-11T02:26:28Z Xach: It should be some package that uses the CCL package.
2014-08-11T02:27:06Z stack`: Yes, that was the problem... Thanks.
2014-08-11T02:27:31Z Xach: Was it? I actually thought I was barking up the wrong tree. Accidentally right, I guess!
2014-08-11T02:27:38Z pjb: stack`: see: ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/cl-opengl-20131003-git/gl/library.lisp
2014-08-11T02:28:03Z Xach: oh, i see the file doesn't in-package early enough. right for the right reason after all.
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2014-08-11T02:28:57Z stack`: Xach, since you are here: what do you do for profiling in CCL?  I got spoiled with SBCLs profiler.
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2014-08-11T02:30:54Z Xach: I haven't tried anything yet. If I wanted to investigate I'd read the manual.
2014-08-11T02:31:52Z stack`: I did, and was hoping you have a magic answer.  It seems a little tedious compared to the built-in profiler in SBCL.  Other then that, I like CCL very much.
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2014-08-11T02:33:32Z Xach: No magic here, sorry.
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2014-08-11T02:40:33Z okcomputer: is it considered "normal" for sbcl tests to fail when compiling on osx(10.9)?
2014-08-11T02:41:53Z Xach: i don't think so.
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2014-08-11T02:45:20Z okcomputer: i probably should have mentioned i compiled --with-sb-threads, does that make a difference?
2014-08-11T02:47:07Z Xach: Let me try it here and see.
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2014-08-11T02:49:19Z Xach: okcomputer: how did you run tests?
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2014-08-11T02:50:01Z okcomputer: cd tests, then sh run-tests.sh
2014-08-11T02:50:53Z okcomputer: would it help if i pasted the test output?
2014-08-11T02:51:08Z Xach: couldn't hurt. stick it on paste.lisp.org
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2014-08-11T02:51:54Z Xach: Actually, I take back my "i don't think so", sorry. I don't know what you should expect.
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2014-08-11T02:52:07Z Xach: I don't usually run tests, I just build & use.
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2014-08-11T02:53:28Z okcomputer: the results are at http://paste.lisp.org/+32MD  if you want to take a look
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2014-08-11T02:54:35Z Xach: That looks like it could be normal. I don't know what you should expect, sorry.
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2014-08-11T02:57:02Z okcomputer: thanks, the errors didn't look too serious but i'm no expert
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2014-08-11T02:59:01Z Xach: i do a lot of development on a mac laptop but most of my software is deployed on amd64 linux, which gets a lot of attention and works really well. so far that has worked fine for me.
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2014-08-11T03:01:16Z okcomputer: i deploy to a freebsd system, but it'll be a while before i use lisp other than locally
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2014-08-11T03:03:53Z Bike: i think fp-mode is the floating point mode, and i don't think very much in sbcl changes that, but if you run into really wrong fp results you might blame that.
2014-08-11T03:05:32Z okcomputer: could i test that with simple fp arithmetic?
2014-08-11T03:06:22Z Bike: no, the problem seems to be a processor state not being inherited in spawned threads, it's probably nothing simple
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2014-08-11T03:07:38Z Bike: i don't think this involves standard lisp https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/tests/threads.impure.lisp#L1558-L1575
2014-08-11T03:10:09Z Bike: and the backtrace thing seems to be a problem with a thread in the middle of producing a backtrace during an error getting interrupted
2014-08-11T03:10:14Z Bike: so probably don't sweat the failures?
2014-08-11T03:11:26Z okcomputer: ill let it go for now, but i'd be more comfortable not seeing tests fail on a deployed system
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2014-08-11T03:19:29Z |3b|: might also file a bug for the "Failure:" ones if there isn't one already, they will get fixed faster that way :)
2014-08-11T03:20:06Z |3b|: (and are easier to fix if the devs find out about them sooner while they still remember what was going on with whatever change caused it)
2014-08-11T03:21:05Z okcomputer: |3b|: i'll do that
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2014-08-11T05:22:01Z viaken: Does anyone in here have experience with ningle? I'm just toying around with it, but I can't seem to figure out how to access the *request* and *response* variables that are supposed to be created.
2014-08-11T05:22:57Z pillton: Try (apropos "*request*")
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2014-08-11T06:33:00Z pnpuff: I'm looking for something of similar to IPython Notebook to use with CL. Any suggestion? Thanks a lot.
2014-08-11T06:33:00Z minion: pnpuff, memo from pjb: Try M-x doctor RET and see if you get ANY answer!
2014-08-11T06:33:19Z pnpuff: :-)
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2014-08-11T06:46:00Z elderK: Hey guys, how do you develop your packages/systems?
2014-08-11T06:46:05Z elderK: Like, when I create an .asd file,
2014-08-11T06:46:08Z elderK: and then say, load it,
2014-08-11T06:46:14Z elderK: I just get issues because of "relative pathnames'
2014-08-11T06:46:31Z elderK: Do you just create a link to your package in the big asdf registry, to your system, when you're developing?
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2014-08-11T06:47:52Z BillyZane: hello
2014-08-11T06:48:21Z BillyZane: I am trying to write a simple function that takes a list and constructs a new list by removing a specific element
2014-08-11T06:48:45Z BillyZane: for example, remove(5 , (1 2 4 3 5 6)) would return (1 2 4 3 6)
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2014-08-11T06:49:13Z elderK: BillyZane:  see remove, remove-if, etc, from hyperspec :)
2014-08-11T06:49:36Z pnpuff: clhs remove
2014-08-11T06:49:36Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm
2014-08-11T06:49:37Z BillyZane: let me try to paste my code
2014-08-11T06:50:53Z BillyZane: http://ideone.com/CjV5Eh
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2014-08-11T06:52:51Z BillyZane: when i load it in clisp, i get the following error
2014-08-11T06:53:11Z BillyZane: *** - SYSTEM::READ-EVAL-PRINT: variable FOO has no value
2014-08-11T06:53:36Z BillyZane: errrr.. sorry
2014-08-11T06:53:48Z BillyZane: *** - SYSTEM::%EXPAND-FORM: (CAR L) should be a lambda expression
2014-08-11T06:54:12Z BillyZane: i am very new to lisp, i'm just trying to learn the basics
2014-08-11T06:55:00Z elderK: BillyZane: See the above mentioned link.
2014-08-11T06:55:17Z BillyZane: i did
2014-08-11T06:55:41Z BillyZane: there are built in functions like remove or remove-if
2014-08-11T06:56:15Z BillyZane: but i want to write it using the keywords
2014-08-11T06:56:36Z BillyZane: it should be a recursive call
2014-08-11T06:57:39Z elderK: The keywords?
2014-08-11T06:58:14Z ggole: You've got too many parens in there
2014-08-11T06:59:22Z BillyZane: i think i know what's wrong
2014-08-11T06:59:33Z ggole:  ( T (cons ( (car L) foo(A (cdr L)) ))) is the busted bit
2014-08-11T06:59:35Z BillyZane: i have too many conditions inside cond
2014-08-11T07:00:30Z ggole: The style is also pretty awful, but that can wait for now.
2014-08-11T07:00:38Z Zhivago: Well, put them outside, then. :)
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2014-08-11T07:02:24Z BillyZane: lol
2014-08-11T07:02:30Z BillyZane: hi Zhivago
2014-08-11T07:02:48Z BillyZane: well
2014-08-11T07:02:55Z BillyZane: let me paste my latest version
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2014-08-11T07:03:41Z Zhivago: It kind of sounds like you may not have sufficiently descriptive accessor functions.
2014-08-11T07:04:26Z BillyZane: http://ideone.com/f4RRG7
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2014-08-11T07:05:11Z BillyZane: sufficiently descriptive...
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2014-08-11T07:06:11Z Zhivago: What does (equal (car L) A) (cdr L)) mean in this context?
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2014-08-11T07:06:33Z Zhivago: That looks like an if-else cascade.
2014-08-11T07:06:36Z BillyZane: A is an element or atom
2014-08-11T07:06:39Z draculus_ is now known as draculus
2014-08-11T07:06:41Z BillyZane: and L is a list
2014-08-11T07:06:43Z ggole: You don't need to nest cond like that.
2014-08-11T07:07:02Z Zhivago: So, what does (equal (car L) A) (cdr L)) mean in that context?
2014-08-11T07:07:05Z BillyZane: i want to return a list that is like L, but with all instances of A removed from it
2014-08-11T07:07:13Z Zhivago: You're not answering the question.
2014-08-11T07:07:24Z ggole: BillyZane: what do you think the syntax is for a function call in lisp?
2014-08-11T07:07:25Z BillyZane: (equal (car L) A) tests to see if A and the first element of L are the same
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2014-08-11T07:07:47Z Zhivago: And what does that _mean_ in this context?
2014-08-11T07:07:48Z BillyZane: oh
2014-08-11T07:07:57Z BillyZane: well , it should be doing recursion in that instance
2014-08-11T07:08:13Z Zhivago: Still not answering the question.
2014-08-11T07:08:35Z BillyZane: well
2014-08-11T07:08:54Z Zhivago: Can you translate (equal (car L) A) into English _in this context_?
2014-08-11T07:08:59Z BillyZane: it returns the rest of the rest
2014-08-11T07:09:02Z BillyZane: err rest of the list
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2014-08-11T07:09:10Z BillyZane: sure...
2014-08-11T07:09:12Z Zhivago: That's explaining what it _does_, not what it _means_.
2014-08-11T07:10:03Z BillyZane: it's suppose to be a check to see if the first element of the list L is the same as A
2014-08-11T07:10:12Z BillyZane: it should return a true or false
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2014-08-11T07:11:21Z BillyZane: i'm testing it though, and it keeps returning nil
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2014-08-11T07:12:56Z BillyZane: if i do... (equal (car '(1 2 3) '1)) it returns T
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2014-08-11T08:20:43Z knobo_: I have forgotten how the order of before/after/around mehtods computed
2014-08-11T08:21:14Z knobo_: Where can I read about it?
2014-08-11T08:21:56Z H4ns: clhs standard-method-combination
2014-08-11T08:21:56Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for standard-method-combination.
2014-08-11T08:21:59Z H4ns: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/07_ffb.htm
2014-08-11T08:22:58Z antoszka: Well, sbcl shows the architecture (say, :x86-64) in *features*.
2014-08-11T08:23:00Z knobo_: onlisp is good, as fare as I remember.
2014-08-11T08:23:15Z antoszka: Well, sbcl shows the architecture (say, :x86-64) in *features*.
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2014-08-11T08:23:40Z antoszka: sbcl shows the architecture (say, :x86-64) in *features*.
2014-08-11T08:24:19Z antoszka: Sorry guys, my window wasn't scrolled down and I'm participating in a discussion long dead :(
2014-08-11T08:24:34Z knobo_: If you sate something 3 times, it must be true ;)
2014-08-11T08:24:34Z antoszka: And I was wondering why my messages wouldn't go into the channel.
2014-08-11T08:24:40Z antoszka: knobo_: Yeah :)
2014-08-11T08:27:27Z knobo_: H4ns: thank you for that link. IT was all I needed.
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2014-08-11T08:28:27Z beach: G'day everyone.
2014-08-11T08:29:03Z beach: BillyZane: Did you solve your problem?
2014-08-11T08:30:34Z BillyZane: nope
2014-08-11T08:30:45Z BillyZane: i did some gogole search on the lambda expression error
2014-08-11T08:30:49Z beach: BillyZane: Is this homework?
2014-08-11T08:30:58Z BillyZane: naa, just trying to make it work
2014-08-11T08:31:46Z beach: BillyZane: One of your problems is that you use the wrong syntax for function calls.  A function call in CL is (   ... ).
2014-08-11T08:32:06Z beach: Not: (  ... )
2014-08-11T08:32:07Z BillyZane: so you would prefer (defun A L)
2014-08-11T08:32:11Z BillyZane: err..
2014-08-11T08:32:26Z beach: I am talking about when you call your function recursively.
2014-08-11T08:32:35Z BillyZane: well, i'm using... (defun foo(A L) ...
2014-08-11T08:32:42Z BillyZane: oh
2014-08-11T08:32:53Z beach: That is correct.  DEFUN is not a function.
2014-08-11T08:32:55Z BillyZane: am i not calling my function like that?
2014-08-11T08:33:01Z beach: No.
2014-08-11T08:33:34Z BillyZane: i'm using.... foo(A (cdr L))
2014-08-11T08:33:44Z beach: Exactly.
2014-08-11T08:33:57Z BillyZane: is it better to say... foo(A cdr(L))
2014-08-11T08:34:05Z BillyZane: i'm not sure what you're implying
2014-08-11T08:34:09Z beach: That does not look like (   ... )
2014-08-11T08:34:12Z BillyZane: there are 2 arguments
2014-08-11T08:34:28Z BillyZane: i see
2014-08-11T08:34:41Z beach: Same thing with cdr(L).
2014-08-11T08:34:50Z BillyZane: so i should use (foo(A (cdr L)))
2014-08-11T08:34:51Z beach: It does not look like ( )
2014-08-11T08:35:02Z beach: Almost.
2014-08-11T08:35:10Z BillyZane: the L in parenthesis as well?
2014-08-11T08:35:12Z beach: (A (cdr L)) would imply that you call A.
2014-08-11T08:35:19Z BillyZane: really
2014-08-11T08:35:30Z BillyZane: ok...
2014-08-11T08:35:36Z beach: Yes, as I said, a function call is (  ...)
2014-08-11T08:35:44Z BillyZane: then how about... (foo(A (cdr(L))))
2014-08-11T08:35:54Z beach: Why (A ...)?
2014-08-11T08:36:14Z beach: You can't stick in parentheses arbitrarily in CL.
2014-08-11T08:36:18Z BillyZane: because there are two parameters to foo
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2014-08-11T08:36:34Z beach: (foo  ) then.
2014-08-11T08:36:37Z beach: As I said above.
2014-08-11T08:36:47Z BillyZane: (foo A cdr(L))
2014-08-11T08:36:53Z beach: Almost.
2014-08-11T08:37:00Z BillyZane: (foo A (cdr L))
2014-08-11T08:37:04Z beach: YES!
2014-08-11T08:37:09Z BillyZane: hmmm
2014-08-11T08:37:18Z BillyZane: ok
2014-08-11T08:37:26Z beach: Got it?
2014-08-11T08:38:12Z BillyZane: well
2014-08-11T08:38:17Z BillyZane: i tried to load it, i got the same error
2014-08-11T08:38:26Z BillyZane: i can show you what i tried to load
2014-08-11T08:38:38Z beach: Paste the new version and the error!
2014-08-11T08:39:40Z BillyZane: http://ideone.com/4AwzgV
2014-08-11T08:40:45Z beach: What do you mean by ((car L) (foo A (cdr L)))?
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2014-08-11T08:41:06Z BillyZane: the idea is that it's the remove function
2014-08-11T08:41:17Z BillyZane: so...
2014-08-11T08:41:30Z beach: OK, check the syntax of your call to CONS against what I said above.
2014-08-11T08:41:44Z BillyZane: so that should be the last line
2014-08-11T08:41:51Z BillyZane: i see
2014-08-11T08:41:56Z BillyZane: so i should check how i use all my asyntax
2014-08-11T08:41:56Z beach: You have (cons ((car L) (foo A (cdr L))))
2014-08-11T08:42:00Z BillyZane: i see
2014-08-11T08:42:11Z BillyZane: so it should not be... con( ... ...)
2014-08-11T08:42:14Z BillyZane: but (cons ... ... )
2014-08-11T08:42:35Z beach: The problem is the arguments to CONS.
2014-08-11T08:42:41Z beach: (CONS ...) is fine.
2014-08-11T08:43:24Z beach: As it is written, you have a single argument to CONS, namely ((car L) (foo A (cdr L))), but that syntax is not legal.
2014-08-11T08:43:41Z beach: Remember (cons   ))
2014-08-11T08:44:11Z BillyZane: the second cond was like this.. cond (... ...)
2014-08-11T08:44:25Z beach: The COND looks fine.
2014-08-11T08:44:33Z beach: Your problem is the call to the function CONS.
2014-08-11T08:45:02Z beach: It looks like (cons ( )), but it should look like (cons  ).
2014-08-11T08:45:13Z BillyZane: it's working :D
2014-08-11T08:45:19Z beach: Congratulations!
2014-08-11T08:45:25Z BillyZane: ty ty!
2014-08-11T08:45:32Z beach: Anytime!
2014-08-11T08:45:40Z BillyZane: this is a pretty cool language
2014-08-11T08:45:52Z beach: Next, you should work on your indentation, and your idioms.
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2014-08-11T08:45:57Z BillyZane: you're right
2014-08-11T08:46:04Z BillyZane: i actually have no idea how i should do it
2014-08-11T08:46:06Z BillyZane: it is a mess right now
2014-08-11T08:46:09Z BillyZane: what do you recommend
2014-08-11T08:46:25Z beach: First, no space after ( or before ).
2014-08-11T08:46:30Z BillyZane: ok
2014-08-11T08:46:32Z beach: So no ) on a line by itself.
2014-08-11T08:46:43Z BillyZane: i see
2014-08-11T08:46:51Z beach: One space between a name and (
2014-08-11T08:46:51Z BillyZane: anything else
2014-08-11T08:47:14Z beach: So (defun foo (A L)  not (defun foo(A L)
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2014-08-11T08:47:29Z BillyZane: ok
2014-08-11T08:47:32Z beach: And use a good text editor to do the indentation for you.
2014-08-11T08:47:51Z BillyZane: i am using geany with 4 spaces for tabs
2014-08-11T08:48:11Z beach: Two spaces is standard.  Four is excessive.
2014-08-11T08:48:19Z beach: We recommend you use Emacs.
2014-08-11T08:48:32Z BillyZane: i've never used it before
2014-08-11T08:48:32Z beach: But if you are not used to Emacs, you can take some time to learn it.
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2014-08-11T08:48:53Z beach: BillyZane: You will be disappointed with CL if you use anything else for serious development.
2014-08-11T08:48:54Z BillyZane: well
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2014-08-11T08:49:08Z BillyZane: i can try running it
2014-08-11T08:49:22Z BillyZane: i'll have to install it
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2014-08-11T08:49:48Z beach: Should be easy.  Use sudo apt-get install emacs23 or something like that.
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2014-08-11T08:50:21Z BillyZane: oh, i just grabbed the first one...
2014-08-11T08:50:29Z BillyZane: emacs 24.3-7
2014-08-11T08:50:33Z beach: That's fine.
2014-08-11T08:51:12Z BillyZane: ok, i'll fire it up...
2014-08-11T08:51:23Z BillyZane: loads really fast
2014-08-11T08:52:13Z beach: Now if you open a file called something.lisp, Emacs automatically puts you in lisp mode.
2014-08-11T08:52:42Z BillyZane: crazy
2014-08-11T08:52:46Z BillyZane: let me try it then
2014-08-11T08:52:49Z BillyZane: but i am reading the tutorial
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2014-08-11T08:53:04Z beach: Yeah, this will keep you busy for a while.
2014-08-11T08:53:07Z beach: :)
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2014-08-11T08:54:38Z BillyZane: i'm gona get some watermelon and read this
2014-08-11T08:54:41Z BillyZane: holy crap it's 2am
2014-08-11T08:54:44Z BillyZane: i should be sleeping
2014-08-11T08:54:56Z beach: Sure.  Good night.  Good luck.
2014-08-11T08:55:00Z BillyZane: alright
2014-08-11T08:55:05Z BillyZane: thanks for the help
2014-08-11T08:55:13Z beach: Sure.  Pleasure.
2014-08-11T08:55:24Z BillyZane: i really appreciate it. i hope i can not repeat those mistakes, and i'll work on my idiom and indentation
2014-08-11T08:55:36Z beach: Sounds good.
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2014-08-11T13:36:21Z paul0: hi again
2014-08-11T13:37:07Z paul0: I'm having a lot of trouble to finish any projects I decide to to with CL, can't find my way in the libraries documentation, like CXML
2014-08-11T13:37:44Z eudoxia: quickdocs is good for library docs
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2014-08-11T13:38:09Z eudoxia: http://quickdocs.org/crane/api
2014-08-11T13:38:14Z paul0: eudoxia, I found about it yesterday
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2014-08-11T13:38:45Z paul0: eudoxia, why CXML api page is empty? http://quickdocs.org/cxml/api
2014-08-11T13:38:55Z eudoxia: no idea, i just went there to get a link
2014-08-11T13:39:22Z Guthur`: paul0: there are simpler XML libaries, not that CXML is any broken, from my limited experience
2014-08-11T13:39:28Z oGMo: paul0: wait what, cxml had decent docs somewhere
2014-08-11T13:39:36Z oGMo: not quickdocs, though perhaps there too
2014-08-11T13:39:52Z paul0: I really love the ideas and code from lisp books, but when I try to write a project that uses libraries that aren't documented in any books, I struggle
2014-08-11T13:40:08Z oGMo: http://common-lisp.net/project/cxml/
2014-08-11T13:40:26Z paul0: oGMo, I was using that page, but no API documentation
2014-08-11T13:40:37Z Xach: paul0: it is a struggle. it would be great if all projects had very good documentation.
2014-08-11T13:40:41Z oGMo: paul0: see the entire right column? ;)
2014-08-11T13:40:48Z paul0: for example, at some point it returned a NODE-SET, I couldn't find a way to proccess each node from it
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2014-08-11T13:40:56Z oGMo: click "quick start" or "sax parsing"
2014-08-11T13:41:36Z paul0: oGMo, couldn't find anything about NODE-SET there
2014-08-11T13:41:39Z oGMo: paul0: not sure but at some point you'll find that just looking at the code with M-. may be quicker
2014-08-11T13:42:00Z oGMo: i.e. look at the class and see if it has readers/accessors, or just cxml:
2014-08-11T13:42:59Z oGMo: http://common-lisp.net/project/cxml/xmls-compat.html <- that node stuff/
2014-08-11T13:43:07Z oGMo: (scroll down a bit)
2014-08-11T13:43:46Z paul0: oh, xpath:all-nodes
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2014-08-11T13:43:51Z paul0: great, thanks!
2014-08-11T13:44:01Z oGMo: cxml is one of those i wouldn't want to figure out how to use from its external symbols preferably, but
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2014-08-11T13:45:35Z paul0: oGMo, how do I search for external symbols? Using apropos?
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2014-08-11T13:45:59Z oGMo: in slime i just type package: and hit tab
2014-08-11T13:46:38Z oGMo: ah, i have that bound to slime-fuzzy-indent-and-complete-symbol
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2014-08-11T13:47:51Z paul0: I was thinking about some documentation tool, that parses lisp code and produces some source where I can find methods for NODE-SET, for example
2014-08-11T13:48:21Z paul0: if I could easily find methods that accept NODE-SET as parameter, my life would be much easier
2014-08-11T13:48:21Z oGMo: that's not how you'd do it in lisp .. but there's manifest
2014-08-11T13:48:54Z oGMo: i've been wanting to write a more comprehensive tool that generates a static site but i haven't gotten around to it
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2014-08-11T13:49:35Z oGMo: well you could just type cxml:node and see all the functions/etc containing "node" which would in most cases (including this one) be sufficient
2014-08-11T13:49:47Z Vivitron: paul0: in addition to oGMo's answer I use apropos, repl-utilities:package-apropos, repl-utilities:summary and repl-utilities:readme
2014-08-11T13:49:50Z oGMo: that completer isn't constrained to packages, either
2014-08-11T13:50:32Z oGMo: Vivitron: that sounds interesting
2014-08-11T13:51:08Z Vivitron: The latter two are both docstring printers
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2014-08-11T13:52:22Z oGMo: paul0: it's also definitely possible to look for methods that accept a class or any of its superclasses, but that's not necessarily as useful as you'd think, since there tend to be a lot (though you could filter by package) and not everything relevant is a generic function
2014-08-11T13:52:59Z paul0: oGMo, any additional information would help
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2014-08-11T13:53:37Z paul0: I don't feel confident to use lisp in more serious projects if I get stuck with library documentation
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2014-08-11T13:53:57Z paul0: lisp seems powerful, but I need those documentation to make it interact with the real world
2014-08-11T13:53:57Z oGMo: like i said at some point it's just easier to glance at the source
2014-08-11T13:54:06Z oGMo: it's a M-. away and pretty clear most of the time
2014-08-11T13:54:53Z oGMo: looking directly at things (inspecting objects, reading code, etc) leaves me not wanting to look at documentation if i can help it
2014-08-11T13:54:53Z Guthur`: paul0: what did you actually want to do with CXML that you found difficult?
2014-08-11T13:55:10Z Vivitron: paul0: my favorite situation is when the library has documentation that makes sense to me and I can use the mentioned tools only to supplement it
2014-08-11T13:55:29Z Guthur`: there are some mature well document libraries, such as drakma and hunchentoot
2014-08-11T13:55:35Z oGMo: but, manifest may help you, since it interactively shows all external symbols and their docstrings
2014-08-11T13:55:49Z paul0: Guthur`, yesterday I was trying to work with the NODE-SET returned by xpath:evaluate
2014-08-11T13:56:40Z paul0: oGMo, https://github.com/gigamonkey/manifest
2014-08-11T13:56:48Z paul0: this is the manifest you are talking about?
2014-08-11T13:56:54Z oGMo: paul0: yes
2014-08-11T13:57:16Z paul0: I'll try it
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2014-08-11T13:58:51Z loke_: paul0: You might be interested in this then: https://github.com/lokedhs/cl-gdata/blob/master/src/xml-misc.lisp#L118
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2014-08-11T13:59:03Z Guthur`: paul0: so this was not helpful? http://common-lisp.net/project/plexippus-xpath/examples.html
2014-08-11T13:59:28Z Guthur`: i assume it was that xpath addon you were using
2014-08-11T13:59:35Z Guthur`: ...for cxml
2014-08-11T14:00:10Z paul0: yes, thanks
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2014-08-11T14:01:00Z Guthur`: a link to that was available on cxml main page here http://common-lisp.net/project/cxml/
2014-08-11T14:01:45Z paul0: Guthur`, I actually found it yesterday :P
2014-08-11T14:02:11Z paul0: it seems that what I was looking for was xpath:all-nodes, http://common-lisp.net/project/cxml/xmls-compat.html
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2014-08-11T14:04:53Z paul0: gigamoney's manifest seems to be the best option for documentation
2014-08-11T14:05:17Z paul0: I've spend a lot of time yesterday finding for cxml methods, and couldn't finish my parser
2014-08-11T14:06:46Z paul0: tried to do the same job in julia, and got it working in minutes, perhaps just because of better documentation for the LightXML library...
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2014-08-11T14:08:03Z oGMo: or your relative familiarity with the language? :P
2014-08-11T14:08:15Z paul0: that too
2014-08-11T14:08:37Z paul0: but I found examples to what I wanted to do in their github page
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2014-08-11T14:10:22Z splittist: There's also apropos, for poking around for symbols. And with a repl to try out functionality interactively you never need to guess what something does.
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2014-08-11T14:12:29Z pjb: but be sure to refer to the CLHS, because often implementations will give implementation specific results in the REPL, so you can't always count on what you see there.
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2014-08-11T14:14:09Z splittist: unless you're going to be using that implementation.
2014-08-11T14:14:26Z paul0: splittist, apropos helped a bit
2014-08-11T14:14:50Z pjb: Always, you will have to use another implementation.  Better write conforming code!
2014-08-11T14:15:21Z paul0: this gigamonkey's manifest is very useful, maybe I could try to improve it later
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2014-08-11T14:17:10Z paul0: a lot of languages have a list of applicable methods for data types, if I could add that to the manifest, my life would be much easier
2014-08-11T14:17:25Z wasamasa: paul0: know what would be nice
2014-08-11T14:17:33Z wasamasa: paul0: cheatsheets for "essential" libraries
2014-08-11T14:18:14Z paul0: wasamasa, someone would have to write them, and people often don't have time for this. So an automated way to write these docs would help a lot
2014-08-11T14:18:27Z wasamasa: not really, auto-generated docs aren't friendly
2014-08-11T14:18:49Z wasamasa: I've seen enough of them for java and ruby
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2014-08-11T14:19:08Z wasamasa: any example file was a lot more useful than that just to get an idea how the library is supposed to be used
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2014-08-11T14:19:39Z paul0: oh... ruby is super easy, I can always list all methods for any object. So I can always know what is possible to do with anything
2014-08-11T14:19:42Z wasamasa: https://github.com/sparklemotion/nokogiri/wiki/Cheat-sheet
2014-08-11T14:20:15Z wasamasa: something like this
2014-08-11T14:20:19Z paul0: julia has some similar tools, and a good REPL
2014-08-11T14:21:14Z loke_: paul0: You can't do that in CL since it has support for multimethods
2014-08-11T14:21:30Z dlowe: You can't do that in CL because no one has written it yet :p
2014-08-11T14:21:39Z Zhivago: The question 'methods for an object' doesn't make sense in CL.
2014-08-11T14:21:40Z loke_: paul0: That said, you CAN list all methods that depend on a given type
2014-08-11T14:21:48Z Zhivago: s/type/class/
2014-08-11T14:22:01Z oGMo: of course it is
2014-08-11T14:22:01Z dlowe: ok, nvm.
2014-08-11T14:22:08Z loke_: Zhivago: No. Type. You can create methods on any type, not just classes
2014-08-11T14:22:26Z oGMo: loke_: um ~
2014-08-11T14:22:27Z Zhivago: loke: Can you give an example of this?
2014-08-11T14:22:27Z oGMo: no
2014-08-11T14:22:35Z paul0: I suppose it is possible to do in lisp, but nobody wrote that
2014-08-11T14:22:39Z Zhivago: loke: The type (integer 10 20) for example?
2014-08-11T14:22:41Z loke_: Zhivago: (defmethod foo ((x integer)) ...)
2014-08-11T14:22:46Z Xach: loke_: integer is a class.
2014-08-11T14:22:55Z Xach: loke_: standard dispatch is eql or class-based.
2014-08-11T14:23:08Z loke_: Xach: Fair enough
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2014-08-11T14:23:16Z Zhivago: loke: That's not the type (integer 10 20).
2014-08-11T14:23:24Z loke_: Xach: But I can escape by mentioning method selectors :-)
2014-08-11T14:23:36Z Xach: i don't know what that means, sorry
2014-08-11T14:23:42Z Zhivago: Method selectors won't help you, since types don't produce a lattice.
2014-08-11T14:23:50Z sow2: hey guys im looking for a lisp lib that handles msrpc parsing... so far i found only samba and its a beast - any tips on tackling msrpc with lisp?
2014-08-11T14:24:07Z oGMo: paul0: it is, no one has because generally there are easier ways, and methods again don't cover all functionality. it would be nice if there was a "what can i do with ?" in CL, but it's not really possible
2014-08-11T14:24:07Z Zhivago: That's why generic-functions dispatch on class, which does.
2014-08-11T14:24:27Z loke_: oGMo: Well, it is kinda possible
2014-08-11T14:24:35Z loke_: oGMo: I implemented support for that in docbrowser
2014-08-11T14:24:46Z Zhivago: Probably the correct question is 'functions to which X is an applicable argument', but that would generally be a very long list.
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2014-08-11T14:25:25Z loke_: oGMo: Zhivago depends. when I implemented it in docbrowser I only display methods which dispatch on that class _directly_
2014-08-11T14:25:28Z oGMo: loke_: "kinda for a few things" is not the same at all, since a lot of interesting things happen with parameters to macro blocks etc
2014-08-11T14:25:30Z paul0: Zhivago, sure, but ruby has something like that. Long lists aren't a problem when I don't have a clue about what to do with the result
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2014-08-11T14:25:52Z oGMo: yes it's easy enough with MOP to do for methods, but that's not general enough
2014-08-11T14:25:54Z loke_: paul0: docbrowser gives you what you want
2014-08-11T14:26:23Z loke_: oGMo: Well, depends on what you mean by general enough. For something that gives you as much as you would get in a single-dispatch language, it does work fine
2014-08-11T14:26:31Z dlowe: ruby will tell you the methods of an object, but not the methods that accept a certain type as a parameter
2014-08-11T14:26:44Z Zhivago: paul0: Well, you'd get back things like CAR, CAAR, CAAAR, ... :)
2014-08-11T14:26:45Z oGMo: ruby doesn't type parameters
2014-08-11T14:26:55Z dlowe: so in that sense, you come out slightly ahead with CL
2014-08-11T14:27:04Z oGMo: but generally in ruby an object's methods are good enough
2014-08-11T14:27:07Z Zhivago: By the time you get down to FORMAT, you might want a cup of tea.
2014-08-11T14:27:11Z paul0: oGMo, but object methods can be listed using "methods" method
2014-08-11T14:27:13Z oGMo: since 99.99% of everything is a method
2014-08-11T14:27:45Z loke_: paul0: Yes, and you can do that in CL too. The problem everybody esle in pointing out is that since CL is much more flexible, such list only tells part of the story
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2014-08-11T14:27:59Z pjb: -
2014-08-11T14:28:01Z paul0: loke_, can you point me the link for docbrowser?
2014-08-11T14:28:24Z loke_: paul0: But the hing you want; given a class, you want to list the methods in the same package that selects on that class, is displayed in the class detains screen in docbrowser
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2014-08-11T14:28:31Z loke_: paul0: Just (ql:quickload "docbrowser")
2014-08-11T14:28:33Z paul0: also, found this lispdoc.com
2014-08-11T14:28:48Z loke_: paul0: Thn start it useing (docbrowser:start-docserver)
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2014-08-11T14:30:18Z dlowe: I think some commercial lisp inspectors will also do that
2014-08-11T14:30:45Z paul0: loke, wow, this is pretty cool
2014-08-11T14:31:13Z loke_: paul0: So if you load, sayd CXML, and navigate to its package
2014-08-11T14:31:27Z loke_: click on "classes" and then you can find the list of methods under "specialsied by"
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2014-08-11T14:32:22Z paul0: loke_, almost perfect, xpath:node-set has 0 specialised methods :)
2014-08-11T14:32:40Z paul0: but now I have an easy browsable documentation, that helps a lot
2014-08-11T14:32:40Z loke_: paul0: Mmm... I noticed. It's borked. That used to work
2014-08-11T14:32:44Z loke_: I'll take a look at it :-)
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2014-08-11T14:33:36Z loke_: other bugs too. You're supposed to be able to click to view the source... Hmm, I'll take a look at this tomorrow
2014-08-11T14:33:56Z loke_: Hopefully you'll have a better version by next QL update
2014-08-11T14:34:04Z paul0: loke_, cool, this is great. Now I can find my way with CL libraries
2014-08-11T14:34:51Z loke_: paul0: Good luck
2014-08-11T14:35:08Z loke_: paul0: I wrote it because I needed it myself. Happy someone else finds it useful :-)
2014-08-11T14:36:17Z paul0: loke_, I'm sure more people will find it useful, this is the kind of tool that was missing in lisp community
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2014-08-11T14:37:03Z Shinmera: Idunno 'bout that
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2014-08-11T14:37:29Z loke_: paul0: There are a few others as well
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2014-08-11T14:38:21Z paul0: loke_, there are, but this one is a centralized documentation, like ruby docserver (or gemserver?), now I know I have just one place to search for documentation
2014-08-11T14:38:25Z paul0: it saves a lot of time
2014-08-11T14:38:55Z loke_: paul0: Well, this one displays docs for anything you have loaded in your active CL image
2014-08-11T14:39:34Z loke_: there is another one that is similar what tried to collect documentation centrally...  It's kinda cool when it works
2014-08-11T14:39:38Z loke_: If only I could remember the url
2014-08-11T14:41:58Z loke_: oh well. have fun :-)
2014-08-11T14:42:12Z loke_: time to do housework
2014-08-11T14:42:22Z paul0: loke_, I'll read more about CL and try to finish my project. Perhaps I'll contribute to docbrowser soon
2014-08-11T14:42:48Z paul0: loke_, thanks for the help, cya
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2014-08-11T15:00:23Z sthalik: uh, how to repl here?
2014-08-11T15:00:24Z sthalik: ,eval t
2014-08-11T15:00:30Z sthalik: minion: eval t
2014-08-11T15:00:35Z minion: eval t: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I?
2014-08-11T15:01:07Z Bike: sthalik: no repl here
2014-08-11T15:01:12Z sthalik: ok
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2014-08-11T15:46:53Z paul0: great, that's what I am talking about
2014-08-11T15:47:17Z paul0: docbrowser made things so easy that I finally finished my RSS parser
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2014-08-11T16:40:54Z AeroNotix: Bike: is that a decision or just lack of need/want?
2014-08-11T16:41:34Z Bike: it noises up the channel and you probably have a local lisp anyway, seems to be the idea
2014-08-11T16:41:46Z kristof: Context?
2014-08-11T16:41:59Z AeroNotix: Bike: sgtm
2014-08-11T16:42:16Z Bike: kristof: "no repl here"
2014-08-11T16:42:30Z kristof: Killjoys.
2014-08-11T16:42:45Z kristof: I'll code, donate, and host my own bot just for the purpose, damn it!
2014-08-11T16:43:09Z kristof: The name "lambdabot" is already taken, so we'd have to come up with a more clever name.
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2014-08-11T16:43:37Z Xach: I don't want to see another bot.
2014-08-11T16:43:46Z kristof: :'(
2014-08-11T16:44:04Z beach: kristof: It is hard to create a sandbox.
2014-08-11T16:44:21Z kristof: It probably is.
2014-08-11T16:44:48Z oGMo: and how would publicly eval'ing code in the channel be better than pasting in the channel
2014-08-11T16:44:50Z Xach: Sandbox tech would be great.
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2014-08-11T16:45:14Z kristof: oGMo: Because it's fun and because one can.
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2014-08-11T16:45:27Z kristof: That is usually the only justification one needs to do anything in life.
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2014-08-11T16:46:40Z whartung: what, you don't like the idea of restarts spamming the channel oGMo ? :0
2014-08-11T16:47:29Z kristof: whartung: A handler would execute before every evaluation that simply catches and displays errors.
2014-08-11T16:50:27Z Aranshada|W: Bot can be named lispy.
2014-08-11T16:51:04Z kristof: That's the lisp interpreter Peter Norvig wrote in Python.
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2014-08-11T16:51:21Z Aranshada|W: =\
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2014-08-11T16:53:00Z AeroNotix: the-repl-bot
2014-08-11T16:53:05Z AeroNotix: I'm so unique and clever
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2014-08-11T16:56:37Z Aranshada|W: Something something eval. Because it sounds like evil.
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2014-08-11T16:58:26Z qbit: heh
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2014-08-11T17:04:56Z beach: Aranshada|W: It does not.  "Eval" has emphasis on the second syllable.  "Evil" on the first.
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2014-08-11T17:07:33Z Xach will not be at ILC after all :(
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2014-08-11T17:07:55Z beach: Xach: Oh, too bad!  Because of your condition?
2014-08-11T17:08:55Z Xach: yes. I am either in pain or my brain is fuzzed from painkillers. not conducive to travel, attending presentations, or socializing, unfortunately.
2014-08-11T17:09:19Z Xach hopes resting rather than traveling will accelerate recovery
2014-08-11T17:09:28Z beach: Yes, I understand.
2014-08-11T17:09:51Z Xach: I'm pretty sad because this is a great opportunity and who knows when ILC will be this close again, but it can't be helped.
2014-08-11T17:10:54Z Xach will lobby for ILC 2016 in Portland, Maine
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2014-08-11T17:13:03Z beach: Good plan!  Offer to organize it!
2014-08-11T17:13:19Z dim: make it next to PostgreSQL Conf NYC and it should be easier for me to join ;-)
2014-08-11T17:14:09Z beach: Xach: Do you know of any other #lisp participants who will be at ILC?
2014-08-11T17:14:39Z beach: I guess I should just write to the organizing committee and get a list of people registered so far.
2014-08-11T17:15:09Z beach: The speakers will probably show up. :)
2014-08-11T17:15:32Z Xach: beach: fade, fare...some more that i don't recall
2014-08-11T17:15:44Z Xach: quadrescenscessce
2014-08-11T17:15:52Z beach: Oh, good!
2014-08-11T17:15:53Z Xach: some clozurians
2014-08-11T17:16:02Z Xach: gendl
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2014-08-11T17:19:43Z beach: I wrote email to them.  We'll see what they say.
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2014-08-11T17:44:14Z gendl: Xach: what happened?
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2014-08-11T17:54:21Z AeroNotix: so lonely in EU
2014-08-11T17:54:55Z gendl: what happend to Xach?
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2014-08-11T17:56:07Z Aranshada|W: beach: Close enough.
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2014-08-11T18:04:47Z stack`: Please help me clarify a confusion.  I am sending a list to a function.  One of the list components repeats often, so I wrapped the call in a let form, binding it to a name.  Now the list, which was a literal, contains a binding that is not available until runtime, and the compiler warns me of an unresolved lexical var...
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2014-08-11T18:05:15Z Bike: i think i'd need to see a paste to understand what you mean
2014-08-11T18:05:21Z oGMo: ...that
2014-08-11T18:05:27Z stack`: (let ((a 1) (b 2))  (setf a '( b b)))
2014-08-11T18:05:42Z Bike: well, ok, yeah, you're quoting the symbols.
2014-08-11T18:05:45Z oGMo: '(b b) => (b b) not (1 2)
2014-08-11T18:05:49Z Bike: (let ((a 1) (b 2)) (setf a (list b b)))
2014-08-11T18:05:50Z oGMo: er 2 2 but yeah
2014-08-11T18:06:58Z stack`: OK, but my problem is a little more subtle then illustrated here.  Each element of a list is a list, so it becomes really ugly.  (setf a (list (list b b) (list c d)) etc...
2014-08-11T18:07:05Z stack`: Is there a cleaner way to do this?
2014-08-11T18:07:16Z oGMo: `((,b ,b) (,c ,d))
2014-08-11T18:07:22Z Bike: well, for one, if a list has identical elements you can use make-list
2014-08-11T18:07:24Z Bike: clhs make-list
2014-08-11T18:07:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_lis.htm
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2014-08-11T18:07:30Z beach: gendl: He just can't go to ILC because of a temporary condition.
2014-08-11T18:07:47Z Bike: like (make-list 17 :initial-element b) => (2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2)
2014-08-11T18:07:48Z beach: gendl: He was just telling me that you might be there.
2014-08-11T18:08:50Z stack`: Not good, it has a bunch of different numbers.  Just some of them repeat, and should be symbols.
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2014-08-11T18:09:15Z stack`: Would the backquote really work here?
2014-08-11T18:09:21Z Bike: sure.
2014-08-11T18:09:26Z Bike: i'm not sure what you could want that could possibly be cleaner than list calls, though.
2014-08-11T18:09:38Z Bike: you're making a list. so you call (list elem1 elem2 ... elemn). what's unclean about it.
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2014-08-11T18:09:48Z oGMo: backquote is a reader thing, just note it doesn't guarantee a fresh list
2014-08-11T18:09:55Z Bike: having a complicated nested list structure in the first place might be weird, i guess
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2014-08-11T18:10:53Z stack`: I am initialing a long list of radial points, and the radius is usually fixed.  So I would have a long list like (list (list 1.2 rad1) (list 3.2 rad1) (list 4.2 rad1)) etc.
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2014-08-11T18:11:20Z Bike: the second element is always rad1?
2014-08-11T18:11:38Z stack`: Almost.  So you see, nothing unclean, just tedious.
2014-08-11T18:12:08Z beach: (loop for first in '(1.2 3.2 4.2) collect (list first rad1))
2014-08-11T18:12:16Z Bike: if they're all the same, i'd do (mapcar (lambda (n) (list n rad1)) ' oh beach beat me to it.
2014-08-11T18:12:33Z beach: Bike: Sorry! :)
2014-08-11T18:12:43Z Bike: you fiend.
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2014-08-11T18:13:50Z Aranshada|W: I started trying to learn Lisp recently, and I'm about halfway through Practical Common Lisp, and I would just like to say, this is some lovely conversation here. And I'm proud that I can actually understand it.
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2014-08-11T18:14:10Z oGMo: Aranshada|W: just don't wait too long to start writing code
2014-08-11T18:14:13Z beach: Aranshada|W: Congratulations!
2014-08-11T18:14:37Z stack`: Yeah, collect is not good.  I am bummed because I had this long quoted list of literals.  Being a good boy, I decided to parametrize the radius, so I stuck it in a let form.  Needless to say, it does not work.  But now instead of a long list I have a really long list full of list forms.  You see what I mean?
2014-08-11T18:15:07Z oGMo: i do not see what you mean at all
2014-08-11T18:15:23Z stack`: Seriously?
2014-08-11T18:15:25Z oGMo: the loop or mapcar solution seems ideal
2014-08-11T18:15:28Z Bike: if these answers aren't helping i really think i would need more context to say anything sensible.
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2014-08-11T18:15:50Z oGMo: exactly .. you need to show exactly what you're really actually doing, not a "simplified" version
2014-08-11T18:15:57Z stack`: Bike, your answers are helping.
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2014-08-11T18:17:30Z moore33: beach: Hi! When are you leaving to go to Montreal?
2014-08-11T18:17:49Z TomRS: hi, I've got a problem, and cannot get to the bottom of it... I need help :(
2014-08-11T18:17:50Z stack`: To clarify: I am trying to replace expressions like '( (1.2 3.4) (2.2 3.4) (4.1 2.0) (1.9 3.4)) with a more symbolic form ((1.2 r) (2.2 r) (4.1 r1) (1.9 r)).
2014-08-11T18:17:52Z beach: moore33: Hello.  Wednesday around noon.
2014-08-11T18:18:02Z TomRS: I am saving parameters like so:
2014-08-11T18:18:12Z TomRS: (defparameter *A* (make-instance 'ra-variable :name "A" :domain '(1 2 3 4) ))
2014-08-11T18:18:31Z TomRS: then I save them into another object:
2014-08-11T18:18:33Z TomRS: (defparameter *scope* (make-instance 'scope :ra-variables '(*A* *B* *C*)))
2014-08-11T18:18:38Z TomRS: in the list
2014-08-11T18:18:50Z Bike: stack`: if there's no simple pattern to it i'd just stick with the literal.
2014-08-11T18:18:51Z TomRS: when I try tro retrieve the elements again
2014-08-11T18:19:02Z TomRS: (ra-variable-name (elt (scope-ra-variables *scope*) 1))
2014-08-11T18:19:06Z beach: TomRS: Replace '(*A* *B* *C*) by (list *A* *B* *C*)
2014-08-11T18:19:25Z TomRS: There is no applicable method for the generic function
2014-08-11T18:19:26Z beach: TomRS: Oh, sorry, probably answered too soon.
2014-08-11T18:19:27Z TomRS:   #
2014-08-11T18:19:28Z TomRS: when called with arguments
2014-08-11T18:19:30Z TomRS:   (*B*).
2014-08-11T18:19:31Z TomRS:    [Condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR]
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2014-08-11T18:19:43Z stack`: Bike, I was trying to parametrize the radius.
2014-08-11T18:19:54Z Bike: it looks like it's not actually a parameter, though.
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2014-08-11T18:20:37Z stack`: In my fragment above, r and r1 are calculated in the surrounding let form.
2014-08-11T18:20:42Z beach: TomRS: Do you want to call the function with the symbol *B* or with its value?
2014-08-11T18:20:59Z TomRS: with the value I guess
2014-08-11T18:21:06Z beach: moore33: Still in Nyons?
2014-08-11T18:21:15Z moore33: beach: Ok. I've been thinking about presentations, commands and gadgets, and I'll try to send you something to think about on the trip.
2014-08-11T18:21:22Z beach: TomRS: Then do what I said.  Replace '(*A* *B* *C*) by (list *A* *B* *C*)
2014-08-11T18:21:36Z TomRS: will try asap
2014-08-11T18:21:36Z beach: moore33: That would be great!
2014-08-11T18:21:46Z Bike: i guess you could do like (flet ((foo (r) (lambda (a) (list a r)))) (append (mapcar (foo r) '(1.2 2.2 1.9)) (mapcar (foo r1) '(4.1))))
2014-08-11T18:21:47Z oGMo: stack`: if you're replacing _backwards_ then you can still mapcar, you just need to compare and spit out the symbol instead of the value
2014-08-11T18:22:04Z beach: moore33: What form does it take?  A specification?  Code?
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2014-08-11T18:22:20Z oGMo: at this point i'm wondering what your goal for this entire endeavor is because it seems like an odd thing to do
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2014-08-11T18:22:33Z beach: TomRS: When you do '(*A* *B* *C*) you get a list of symbols, not a list of values.
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2014-08-11T18:22:53Z stack`: oGMo, I am cleaning up a piece of code that had constants with a parametrized version.
2014-08-11T18:23:00Z TomRS: beach: your're the best!!!
2014-08-11T18:23:06Z TomRS: beach: thanks a lot!
2014-08-11T18:23:14Z beach: TomRS: Anytime!
2014-08-11T18:23:24Z TomRS: beach: took me forever before asking  here :)
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2014-08-11T18:24:28Z stack`: oGMo, so I have some constants, and some values are plugged in.  However, it is a list of radial coordinates, and I don't want to mangle it so it's not recognizable as such by looping etc.  I thought there was a simple way to substitute symbols for some values.  It is Lisp after all.
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2014-08-11T18:26:37Z Bike: values for some symbols, do you mean?
2014-08-11T18:26:58Z Bike: if so, and with the constraint that you can't do "looping etc", it's backticks or list calls or nothing.
2014-08-11T18:27:16Z Bike: `((1.2 ,r) (2.2 ,r) (4.1 ,r1) (1.9 ,r))
2014-08-11T18:27:21Z stack`: Backticks it is.  Thank you.
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2014-08-11T18:32:16Z beach: moore33: Did you faint?
2014-08-11T18:32:34Z moore33: beach: Stream of consciousness :) No, trying to debug mail problems on Rachel's Mac.
2014-08-11T18:32:43Z beach: Oh.
2014-08-11T18:32:58Z beach: moore33: so you will email me something?
2014-08-11T18:33:04Z moore33: beach: Yeah.
2014-08-11T18:33:07Z beach: OK.
2014-08-11T18:33:15Z beach: I should go spend time with my (admittedly small) family.
2014-08-11T18:33:25Z moore33: beach: Ok, go, and say hi to her ;)
2014-08-11T18:33:29Z beach: Will do.
2014-08-11T18:33:41Z beach: Say hi to your family members for me please.
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2014-08-11T18:43:23Z Aranshada|W: I just looked up flet, and I understand the earlier code now. :)
2014-08-11T18:43:44Z Aranshada|W: Even just reading it is satisfying.
2014-08-11T18:45:40Z AeroNotix: https://gist.github.com/AeroNotix/58f933ab9b1df96b7748 When I try to run the function, it complains that it does not exist
2014-08-11T18:47:06Z ejbs: AeroNotix: Have you tried using cl-autowrap?
2014-08-11T18:47:37Z AeroNotix: ejbs: nope, I'm updating an older library.
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2014-08-11T18:50:53Z jasom: Is there a way to define a setf expander that acts exactly as if it were a macro when used in a setf?
2014-08-11T18:51:19Z jasom: (I need it to be a function when not in a setf, so I can't jus use defmacro)
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2014-08-11T18:52:15Z jasom supposes he could just use get-setf-expansion on what it would expand to...
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2014-08-11T19:08:52Z AeroNotix: ejbs: well I just tried it on one of these files and it told me there's no spec for my architecture
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2014-08-11T19:19:37Z AeroNotix: ejbs: oh it needs his custom tool, which needs a development version of LLVM.
2014-08-11T19:19:43Z AeroNotix: Doesn't seem ready for prime-time
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2014-08-11T19:24:54Z ejbs: AeroNotix: That's too bad :/
2014-08-11T19:25:18Z AeroNotix: ejbs: of course, I am compiling it up...
2014-08-11T19:25:34Z AeroNotix: ejbs: any ideas on my original problem whilst I wait for LLVM and Clang to compile/
2014-08-11T19:25:36Z AeroNotix: ?
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2014-08-11T19:28:33Z ejbs: AeroNotix: No, sorry, I always thought that using CFFI was a pain haha
2014-08-11T19:29:07Z AeroNotix: ok
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2014-08-11T19:30:20Z resttime: I'm not sure what the context is, but I agree that using CFFI can be a pain lol
2014-08-11T19:30:52Z AeroNotix: resttime: https://gist.github.com/AeroNotix/58f933ab9b1df96b7748 When I try to run the function, it complains that it does not exist
2014-08-11T19:30:55Z AeroNotix: that's the context^
2014-08-11T19:31:33Z resttime: hrmm i guess to go down the regular troubleshooting...
2014-08-11T19:31:37Z resttime: is the library loaded properly?
2014-08-11T19:32:28Z AeroNotix: resttime: gist updated
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2014-08-11T19:36:35Z resttime: are you in the right package? how are you calling the function?
2014-08-11T19:37:14Z AeroNotix: resttime: so say the package is :webkit.foreign
2014-08-11T19:37:36Z AeroNotix: I call it like: (webkit.foreign:$FUNCTION_NAME webview .... )
2014-08-11T19:37:43Z Aranshada|W: That reminds me. I need to learn about packages. Looks like Chapter 21 is coming up quick.
2014-08-11T19:37:48Z Aranshada|W: Excellent.
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2014-08-11T19:38:33Z AeroNotix: Aranshada|W: it's quite nice
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2014-08-11T19:39:09Z resttime: what's the exact error you get?
2014-08-11T19:39:38Z AeroNotix: resttime: undefined alient function
2014-08-11T19:40:07Z AeroNotix: alien*
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2014-08-11T19:42:12Z resttime: try instead of (:unix (:or "libwebkitgtk-3.0.so")))
2014-08-11T19:42:17Z resttime: (t (:default "libwebkitgtk")))
2014-08-11T19:43:43Z resttime: or libwebgtk-3.0.so or libwebgtk-3.0
2014-08-11T19:43:50Z resttime: in those quotes
2014-08-11T19:44:33Z AeroNotix: resttime: the library loads other functions fine, I am adding a new one
2014-08-11T19:44:42Z Aranshada|W: Any other books that you guys could suggest? I'm working through Practical Common Lisp right now, and someone else suggested Let Over Lambda, so I have that as well. I was trying to read ANSI Common Lisp, but my copy is missing pages 49-110 for some reason, so I'll have to get another copy of that.
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2014-08-11T19:44:56Z Bicyclidine: that's a hell of a lacuna
2014-08-11T19:45:01Z AeroNotix: Aranshada|W: On Lisp
2014-08-11T19:45:03Z Aranshada|W: Most of this reading is done on plane rides, too, so I don't want to use my laptop/phone, and I don't have an ereader.
2014-08-11T19:45:04Z Bicyclidine: PAIP is aight
2014-08-11T19:45:09Z Aranshada|W: I don't know enough for On Lisp yet, Aero. =\
2014-08-11T19:45:21Z AeroNotix: You probably do
2014-08-11T19:45:22Z Aranshada|W: I tried reading that as my first Lisp book. That was a huge mistake.
2014-08-11T19:45:29Z AeroNotix: hmm, ok
2014-08-11T19:45:34Z Aranshada|W: He was already throwing out mapcar and I had no idea what it did.
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2014-08-11T19:45:43Z Aranshada|W: I was going to read ANSI Common Lisp first, then read On Lisp.
2014-08-11T19:45:47Z AeroNotix: ok
2014-08-11T19:45:49Z resttime: : haha I don't think I have a clue then, only thing i an think of then is that this new function isn't compiled into your lib
2014-08-11T19:45:57Z AeroNotix: ok
2014-08-11T19:46:15Z AeroNotix: but the include files match the version of the shared object file
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2014-08-11T19:50:59Z AeroNotix: resttime: ah my bad, I *was* linking to the wrong thing
2014-08-11T19:51:48Z resttime: no prob, glad it's solved
2014-08-11T19:52:12Z AeroNotix: so what problems do people have with cffi? Compared to other languages, this is truly amazing
2014-08-11T19:52:19Z AeroNotix: I'm blown away
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2014-08-11T19:54:38Z AeroNotix: What about the deployment story for cffi'd code?
2014-08-11T19:54:48Z pnpuff: Is there any web based interactive interface to use the CL REPL?
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2014-08-11T19:55:06Z resttime: I mostly had problems with it in windows when trying to pass structures by value
2014-08-11T19:55:22Z resttime: and some path problems regarding the library's location when in SLIME
2014-08-11T19:55:36Z AeroNotix: Screw windows lol
2014-08-11T19:55:52Z resttime: I wanted cross platform :3
2014-08-11T19:56:00Z resttime: if it works in windows then it'll work everywhere else
2014-08-11T19:56:02Z AeroNotix: yeah I don't really care about that
2014-08-11T19:57:13Z resttime: other than that, don't think I had too much problem with it
2014-08-11T19:57:35Z AeroNotix: cool
2014-08-11T19:57:56Z resttime: sometimes about accessing structure values seemed pretty long
2014-08-11T19:58:05Z resttime: though that's probably solved with some macros/functions
2014-08-11T19:58:19Z AeroNotix: Yeah I wrote a couple of macros to help with this
2014-08-11T19:58:33Z resttime: if you want, check out cl-opengl for good bindings
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2014-08-11T19:58:51Z resttime: i wrote bindings for allegro5 by looking at cl-opengl
2014-08-11T19:58:53Z AeroNotix: will do, cheers
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2014-08-11T20:43:06Z AeroNotix: ok guiz, what sucks about Lisp?
2014-08-11T20:44:27Z Bicyclidine: lots of irritating silly parentheses
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2014-08-11T20:45:03Z AeroNotix: lots of incredibly sexy parenthesis
2014-08-11T20:46:53Z kristof: Bicyclidine: Is that Bike behind a new nick or
2014-08-11T20:47:06Z AeroNotix: Wouldn't it be Bicyclodine?
2014-08-11T20:47:15Z Bicyclidine: i'm on my netbook, yes.
2014-08-11T20:49:41Z Aranshada|W: Lets indulge sexy pears
2014-08-11T20:49:46Z Aranshada|W: =\
2014-08-11T20:50:14Z AeroNotix: lispers invariably sound pathetic
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2014-08-11T20:52:22Z Aranshada|W: It's hard for me to read some of Paul Graham's writing.
2014-08-11T20:52:52Z Aranshada|W: Because he just comes across as so incredibly egotistical.
2014-08-11T20:53:08Z kristof: that's common opinion here
2014-08-11T20:53:19Z Aranshada|W: Is it?
2014-08-11T20:53:20Z Aranshada|W: I'm new.
2014-08-11T20:53:24Z Aranshada|W: Good to know I'm not the only one.
2014-08-11T20:54:48Z AeroNotix: yeah, but he does have some good things to say
2014-08-11T20:54:59Z AeroNotix: I also dislike the religious tone he has for Lisp
2014-08-11T20:55:05Z beach left #lisp
2014-08-11T20:55:10Z AeroNotix: it's *a* tool, not *the* tool
2014-08-11T20:55:20Z AeroNotix: Though it is a really, really good tool
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2014-08-11T21:01:23Z Aranshada|W: I like Peter Seibel's tone a lot better.
2014-08-11T21:01:36Z Aranshada|W: "Lisp is fun, and now we're going to have fun writing fun programs and learning how powerful and fun Lisp can be!"
2014-08-11T21:01:40Z stack`: AeroNotix, I would actually say it is *the* tool.
2014-08-11T21:01:52Z stack`: It's good to say that gently, though.
2014-08-11T21:02:21Z AeroNotix: stack`: yes
2014-08-11T21:02:28Z AeroNotix: Aranshada|W: I love that dude
2014-08-11T21:02:30Z AeroNotix: he should write more
2014-08-11T21:02:58Z stack`: It's hard to say that Lisp is *the* tool to people using other stuff without implying they are idiots.
2014-08-11T21:02:59Z Bicyclidine: i think he wants to be a writer rather than a programmer, so he's on his way.
2014-08-11T21:03:16Z Bicyclidine: i liked one of his other books i've read, but unfortunately his publisher for it was terrible.
2014-08-11T21:03:57Z Aranshada|W: So of course I've enjoyed Practical Common Lisp way more than ANSI Common Lisp.
2014-08-11T21:04:30Z Aranshada|W: Seibel actually decided to introduce lists after other sequence data types.
2014-08-11T21:04:34Z Shinmera: Bicyclidine: Not sure if you mean 'Coders at Work', but I'm reading through that right now and it's quite nice.
2014-08-11T21:04:35Z Aranshada|W: Just to prove that they existed.
2014-08-11T21:04:56Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: yeah?
2014-08-11T21:04:58Z Bicyclidine: Shinmera: that's the one. think he has a few other books
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2014-08-11T21:05:12Z stack`: I'm trying to read less and write some code to get a better feel for CL.  I figure I'll go back to reading with some hands-on background.
2014-08-11T21:05:13Z Shinmera: AeroNotix: ...yes?
2014-08-11T21:05:26Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: Was kind of a prod to say more :)
2014-08-11T21:05:36Z Aranshada|W: I want to get through this book and then make my first real project an IRC bot.
2014-08-11T21:05:42Z AeroNotix: Aranshada|W: everyone does that
2014-08-11T21:05:46Z Shinmera: AeroNotix: well it's a collection of interviews with more or less well known programmers and their experiences/thoughts about software
2014-08-11T21:05:51Z Aranshada|W: Because a channel I'm in that's part of a gaming community said you can't make an IRC bot in Lisp.
2014-08-11T21:05:54Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: oh cool
2014-08-11T21:05:59Z Shinmera: AeroNotix: But I'd think an amazon search can tell you that and more quicker than I could
2014-08-11T21:06:00Z AeroNotix: Aranshada|W: WHAT
2014-08-11T21:06:01Z Aranshada|W: Because they love their slew of python bots all built from the same lib.
2014-08-11T21:06:06Z Bicyclidine: Aranshada|W: be aware that cl-irc is a bit hairy
2014-08-11T21:06:09Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: sure, just wanted to spark conversation
2014-08-11T21:06:18Z Bicyclidine: well, if they use twistd that's also hairy
2014-08-11T21:06:24Z Aranshada|W: They do.
2014-08-11T21:06:27Z stack`: I'm writing an asteroids construction kit.
2014-08-11T21:06:30Z Aranshada|W: But they're so set in their ways with the python bots.
2014-08-11T21:06:33Z AeroNotix: I'm writing a browser
2014-08-11T21:06:36Z resttime: i had an irc bot in lisp
2014-08-11T21:06:36Z AeroNotix: web browser
2014-08-11T21:06:42Z Aranshada|W: And there is so much broken crap in all of their code.
2014-08-11T21:06:43Z Bicyclidine: Asteroids as in large space rocks, or
2014-08-11T21:06:45Z resttime: the only thing it did was repl though lol
2014-08-11T21:06:49Z Aranshada|W: and they always say, "I welcome pull requests."
2014-08-11T21:07:00Z Aranshada|W: So I'm going to just one-up them and write a more flexible and dependable bot in Lisp instead.
2014-08-11T21:07:18Z stack`: AeroNotix - a real web browser?  That is a daunting project.
2014-08-11T21:07:27Z AeroNotix: stack`: it uses webkit
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2014-08-11T21:07:32Z Aranshada|W: The first goal is to get hands on experience with Lisp. The second goal is to rustle my friends' jimmies.
2014-08-11T21:07:34Z AeroNotix: so technically the interface around it
2014-08-11T21:07:55Z resttime: if you use cl-irc and want an SSL connection be warned that +cl-ssl+ was really bad
2014-08-11T21:08:05Z AeroNotix: resttime: In what way bad?
2014-08-11T21:08:07Z Shinmera: Aranshada|W: Shameful self promoting https://github.com/Shinmera/colleen
2014-08-11T21:08:09Z stack`: AeroNotix: ok, as long as HTML and all the protocols are taken care of, it makes more sense.
2014-08-11T21:08:19Z stack`: And stylesheets and crap.
2014-08-11T21:08:21Z AeroNotix: stack`: yeah, and security !
2014-08-11T21:08:22Z Bicyclidine: when i had a lisp irc bot the fun thing was keeping the repl around, so if someone tried a command it didn't have i'd just write it in and it'd be there without restarting or anything
2014-08-11T21:08:29Z Aranshada|W: I honestly didn't know there was a cl-irc lib. I was imagining using low level sockets to interact with IRC in a most bare minimal way.
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2014-08-11T21:08:39Z AeroNotix: Aranshada|W: I've done this
2014-08-11T21:08:47Z resttime: last I remembered, it would eat my CPU
2014-08-11T21:08:55Z AeroNotix: Aranshada|W: if you don't know how to use sockets, I guess this would be a good task
2014-08-11T21:09:01Z Bicyclidine: Aranshada|W: cl-irc has a nice design, i think, but i had problems with messages it didn't understand, and such
2014-08-11T21:09:02Z AeroNotix: resttime: yeah but was it secure/verified
2014-08-11T21:09:07Z Bicyclidine: irc message classes, that is
2014-08-11T21:09:12Z Aranshada|W: I don't know Lisp sockets, no.
2014-08-11T21:09:16Z Aranshada|W: Any other language, sure.
2014-08-11T21:09:37Z Aranshada|W: Hell, I'd considered writing a bot in PHP. Again, just to rustle their jimmies.
2014-08-11T21:09:41Z stack`: Self promotion - if you feel like playing a nice version of asteroids, https://github.com/stacksmith/asteroids
2014-08-11T21:09:46Z resttime: AeroNotix: yeah it would connect to a server with 100% CPU always
2014-08-11T21:09:49Z Aranshada|W: Because they couldn't give me a single concrete example of why PHP was "bad."
2014-08-11T21:10:00Z resttime: or spiking CPU
2014-08-11T21:10:05Z AeroNotix: Aranshada|W: http://eev.ee/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/
2014-08-11T21:10:11Z Aranshada|W: They just said, "But it's a web language... you can't write an IRC bot in a web language."
2014-08-11T21:10:14Z resttime: solution is to NOT use +cl-ssl+
2014-08-11T21:10:21Z AeroNotix: PHP *is* bad and if you cannot see it you deserve to write PHP for 10 years
2014-08-11T21:10:25Z resttime: and use cl-async-ssl instead
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2014-08-11T21:10:29Z Aranshada|W: I've been curious exactly what is wrong with PHP. I know the things that I don't like about it.
2014-08-11T21:10:34Z Aranshada|W: But for what it is, it's always seemed just fine.
2014-08-11T21:10:42Z AeroNotix: Aranshada|W: then you don't know what to look for
2014-08-11T21:10:47Z Aranshada|W: Obviously not.
2014-08-11T21:10:48Z AeroNotix: which is fine, 'cause we were all there
2014-08-11T21:10:57Z Aranshada|W: I'll give this article a good twice over.
2014-08-11T21:10:59Z AeroNotix: but get some more experience with other, more sane, languages and you'll see
2014-08-11T21:11:21Z stack`: Or just learn CL all the way.
2014-08-11T21:11:28Z resttime: warning again about +cl-ssl+ from the last time I used it
2014-08-11T21:11:34Z Aranshada|W: My background starts with Visual Basic 6.0, then to C++, then some PHP, then a bit of Javascript, dabblings in Java, then loads more C++.
2014-08-11T21:11:40Z Aranshada|W: And a bit of Python.
2014-08-11T21:11:50Z Aranshada|W: And some other languages I forget because they weren't very significant.
2014-08-11T21:11:51Z oGMo: Aranshada|W: everything is wrong with php
2014-08-11T21:12:02Z AeroNotix: Aranshada|W: now I understand why you might be brain damaged
2014-08-11T21:12:14Z oGMo: but don't worry, most of us were at some point
2014-08-11T21:12:17Z Aranshada|W: Oh wait.
2014-08-11T21:12:21Z Aranshada|W: Ti-BASIC
2014-08-11T21:12:26Z Aranshada|W: That was my very first language.
2014-08-11T21:12:27Z Aranshada|W: :)
2014-08-11T21:12:33Z stack`: After 35 years of 'all those other languages', I think I am safe to say that I will never use anything except CL again...Unless I really have to.
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2014-08-11T21:12:41Z Aranshada|W: I remember not knowing what the hell for() did in TI-BASIC.
2014-08-11T21:12:42Z resttime: hmm actually CL+SSL seems to have been updated
2014-08-11T21:12:50Z Aranshada|W: I didn't learn about loops until later when I had learned about For loops in VB6.0.
2014-08-11T21:13:09Z Aranshada|W: This was when I was like.. 12...
2014-08-11T21:13:12Z resttime: ignore my words of doom
2014-08-11T21:13:37Z stack`: resttime - what is wrong with it?
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2014-08-11T21:14:00Z resttime: last time I remember using it, it would spike my CPU
2014-08-11T21:14:20Z resttime: maybe it won't do that anymore
2014-08-11T21:14:33Z stack`: Is it ffi-ing to a library?
2014-08-11T21:14:41Z Aranshada|W: "You pull out the hammer, but to your dismay, it has the claw part on both sides. Still serviceable though, I mean, you can hit nails with the middle of the head holding it sideways."
2014-08-11T21:14:48Z Aranshada|W: Oh god that's a wonderful image.
2014-08-11T21:15:03Z resttime: stack`: what do you mean? i was using it in conjunction with cl-irc
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2014-08-11T21:15:13Z resttime: i might have tested it with drakma as well
2014-08-11T21:15:19Z resttime: cpu spiking
2014-08-11T21:15:44Z stack`: It's processing data.
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2014-08-11T21:16:20Z resttime: hmmmm maybe i'm misunderstanding something then
2014-08-11T21:16:27Z AeroNotix: resttime: stack` perhaps a demonstration is in order?
2014-08-11T21:16:40Z resttime: but when I switched to an alternative cl-async-ssl, cpu spikes were no more
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2014-08-11T21:17:18Z AeroNotix: resttime: example !?
2014-08-11T21:17:27Z stack`: I'd use cl-async-ssl then :)
2014-08-11T21:17:44Z AeroNotix: stack`: just 'cause this random dude in IRC said so? :)
2014-08-11T21:17:52Z AeroNotix: science, people :)
2014-08-11T21:18:07Z resttime: lol don't take my word for it, test it out yourself, maybe it got fixed
2014-08-11T21:18:15Z resttime: ignore my words of doom
2014-08-11T21:18:15Z stack`: Nah, I'm just suggesting to some random dude to use whatever tool works better for him.
2014-08-11T21:18:37Z AeroNotix: oh ok
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2014-08-11T21:19:38Z stack`: AeroNotix, so how's your browser special?
2014-08-11T21:20:06Z AeroNotix: stack`: configured in Lisp, keyboard driven
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2014-08-11T21:20:27Z stack`: I am always pissed off with all the tracking...
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2014-08-11T21:20:46Z AeroNotix: Well that's not something the browser could help with really... it's the websites themselves that do that
2014-08-11T21:20:56Z AeroNotix: Facebook, et al
2014-08-11T21:21:10Z AeroNotix: I'm sure no-one in #lisp would be so dumb as to use Facebook, but still.
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2014-08-11T21:22:06Z stack`: You know, I have no-script and ghostery and self-destructing cookies.  But then I look at say google maps, enable google.  Now my machine is open.  It would be nice to compartmentalize scripting/cookie limitations.
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2014-08-11T21:23:03Z AeroNotix: stack`: It's using webkit, so if webkit supports something like that, then yeah
2014-08-11T21:23:04Z Aranshada|W: Wow. The section on the behavior of that fopen() line alone is amazing.
2014-08-11T21:23:17Z AeroNotix: I think it's possible to control when a page loads JS etc
2014-08-11T21:23:27Z Aranshada|W: But I also never had such complex PHP code that I ever had to really worry about anything like that. So I never ran into a lot of these issues.
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2014-08-11T21:24:07Z sexpr: Were you ever afraid of writing PHP code that complex?
2014-08-11T21:24:13Z sexpr is now known as kristof
2014-08-11T21:24:18Z Bicyclidine: I don't want to be too curmudgeonly here, but a lot of this is off-topic.
2014-08-11T21:24:22Z stack`: Ideally, the default behaviour should be to localize all intrusive elements to the site.  So if you shop at amazon, you have to let them in, but you won't be tracked across other websites.
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2014-08-11T21:24:56Z Aranshada|W: kristof: Not really. I mostly just never had a need for complexity in what I wrote. I never did large scale production software. It was all hobbyist level crap.
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2014-08-11T21:26:08Z AeroNotix: Bicyclidine: we're talking about a project of mine which is written in Lisp
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2014-08-11T21:26:16Z AeroNotix: and the possibility of certain features
2014-08-11T21:26:19Z stack`: I've thought about writing a browser shell many times just to implement privacy correctly.  Not that it's easy or that I have a really good idea about how to do that.
2014-08-11T21:26:43Z AeroNotix: stack`: take a gander through the webkit api and point me at APIs that might help to implement something like this
2014-08-11T21:26:50Z AeroNotix: I assume that cookie controls might be accessible
2014-08-11T21:26:54Z Aranshada|W: AeroNotix: I think he might've been referring to me still babbling about PHP.
2014-08-11T21:26:58Z AeroNotix: Aranshada|W: oh well, yeah
2014-08-11T21:26:59Z stack`: But it seems that an idiot could do better then default firefox behaviour
2014-08-11T21:27:05Z Aranshada|W: Which I'm done with for now. :)
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2014-08-11T21:27:41Z AeroNotix: ok
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2014-08-11T21:28:04Z stack`: AeroNotix: I will take a look when my brain works, and let you know if there is anything I can suggest.  Gimme a day or two.
2014-08-11T21:28:13Z AeroNotix: stack`: nw
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2014-08-11T21:35:13Z stack`: AeroNotix: a keyboard-driven browser with lisp is a great project.  I'd certainly use it.  A nice bookmark management system (Common Lisp), and a REPL.  Why has no one done that?
2014-08-11T21:35:46Z kristof: oh wow
2014-08-11T21:35:55Z AeroNotix: stack`: not sure :)
2014-08-11T21:36:05Z kristof: I like that idea. Programmatically accessing and manipulating bookmarks.
2014-08-11T21:36:11Z AeroNotix: kristof: exactly
2014-08-11T21:36:14Z AeroNotix: imagine the possibilities
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2014-08-11T21:37:00Z stack`: Searchable notes along with the bookmarks.  Scripting in Lisp instead of the 'monkey.
2014-08-11T21:37:04Z kristof: I've always hated the web browser for being a locked box of functionality. you've got your JS interpreter in there, a rendering engine, a bookmarks database, oftentimes a PDF reader...
2014-08-11T21:37:10Z kristof: these things do not belong in a single application.
2014-08-11T21:37:30Z oGMo: you had me at "always hated the web browser"
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2014-08-11T21:37:37Z AeroNotix: kristof: indeed, I've never been truly satisfied with any browser
2014-08-11T21:37:44Z AeroNotix: And the whole JS fad really irks me
2014-08-11T21:38:12Z oGMo: that said a remote display protocol with a sandbox for local code could be handy
2014-08-11T21:38:13Z kristof: Well you need SOME language for scripting on the client side. And with clojurescript, you've got a full fledged lisp to work with now :P
2014-08-11T21:38:14Z stack`: There are worse things then JS
2014-08-11T21:38:30Z AeroNotix: kristof: I keep meaning to dedicate more time to CLJS
2014-08-11T21:38:38Z kristof: do it
2014-08-11T21:38:42Z stack`: Although I avoid the whole 'web development' thing like the plague
2014-08-11T21:38:50Z AeroNotix: kristof: I was hoping with this project I would end up having to use JS, so I could just use CLJS
2014-08-11T21:38:55Z AeroNotix: I use Clojure at work
2014-08-11T21:39:05Z kristof: oGMo: there is a sandboxed evaluation context for use with an IRC bot written in CL
2014-08-11T21:39:21Z oGMo: kristof: not really what i mean :P
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2014-08-11T21:39:51Z kristof: Oh, I see what you mean
2014-08-11T21:39:57Z kristof: oGMo: "I hate the browser except _____"
2014-08-11T21:40:16Z oGMo: and if you can't run actively hostile code securely, you're not there yet
2014-08-11T21:40:24Z Aranshada|W: I feel like there must be one person here who still uses emacs as a web browser.
2014-08-11T21:40:34Z AeroNotix: Aranshada|W: /me raises hand
2014-08-11T21:40:40Z Aranshada|W: If ever I would find someone, it'd be here.
2014-08-11T21:40:41Z Aranshada|W: Aha!
2014-08-11T21:40:44Z kristof: Gross.
2014-08-11T21:40:49Z AeroNotix: I use it to browse code on github, jenkins and some other random shit
2014-08-11T21:40:58Z AeroNotix: but specifically those, because there are good plugins for that
2014-08-11T21:41:11Z oGMo: Aranshada|W: i was using it for awhile for clhs, until w3 broke for some reason
2014-08-11T21:41:15Z stack`: I have one word for you _MINITEL_
2014-08-11T21:41:18Z oGMo: it's pretty handy to have that in the same window
2014-08-11T21:41:24Z Aranshada|W: I also started out with vim and it makes sense to me. I can't imagine having to relearn a new editor like emacs. =\
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2014-08-11T21:41:50Z oGMo: learning new things is good
2014-08-11T21:41:54Z AeroNotix: idneed
2014-08-11T21:41:58Z Aranshada|W: Yeah... but...
2014-08-11T21:42:02Z AeroNotix: (such as spelling, apparently^)
2014-08-11T21:42:03Z oGMo: there is no "but"
2014-08-11T21:42:07Z Aranshada|W: How long will the editor hold me back simply because it's a new editor...
2014-08-11T21:42:20Z AeroNotix: Aranshada|W: emacs? I'm 4 years and counting
2014-08-11T21:42:26Z oGMo: if "there's this great new thing but i don't want to learn it" then you've already lost
2014-08-11T21:42:29Z AeroNotix: I don't feel sufficient in it yet
2014-08-11T21:42:36Z Aranshada|W: It's more like.
2014-08-11T21:43:00Z Aranshada|W: I would have to see the proof that I would regain all the lost time that I would spend learning it as well as gain extra time using it vs the old editor.
2014-08-11T21:43:08Z oGMo: well it's emacs, cursor keys move you around and you type to insert things, and there's a menu and toolbar (until you learn how to turn them off)
2014-08-11T21:43:10Z H4ns: Aranshada|W: if you're not spending more time thinking than editing, you're doing it wrong anyway
2014-08-11T21:43:15Z oGMo: everything else would be new anyway
2014-08-11T21:43:22Z stack`: Emacs is great, although I have a large cheatsheet for it open in mousepad and have to refer to it and update it very often.  I hope in a couple more months I can just type the fmakeunbound keys without looking them up.
2014-08-11T21:43:42Z AeroNotix: Aranshada|W: emacs is an all round better programming environment, the text entry method is kind of a strange comparison
2014-08-11T21:43:46Z surrounder: Aranshada|W: I'm fine with evil-mode (hardcore emacs users probably hate me for it) but it works for me
2014-08-11T21:43:47Z Aranshada|W: I could totally work with it if I had a cheat sheet.
2014-08-11T21:43:56Z stack`: C-c C-u, just guessing.
2014-08-11T21:44:18Z Aranshada|W: And it would seem fitting writing lisp in emacs, rather than in vim or Notepad++.
2014-08-11T21:44:39Z AeroNotix: Aranshada|W: SLIME is just ridiculous
2014-08-11T21:44:43Z surrounder: Aranshada|W: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/Evil - might give it a shot if you don't know it yet, it kinda works for me thusfar
2014-08-11T21:45:34Z stack`: Slime actually works pretty well for me.  I still can't figure out how to slurp backwards, but manage.  I like ranibow parens.
2014-08-11T21:45:45Z Aranshada|W: slurp....
2014-08-11T21:45:48Z AeroNotix: stack`: SLIME != paredit
2014-08-11T21:46:05Z stack`: right.
2014-08-11T21:46:11Z kcj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2014-08-11T21:46:18Z AeroNotix: I never wrapped my head around paredit, gonna give it another go in the future
2014-08-11T21:47:11Z stack`: It takes about 3 days to get used to navigating s-exps directly, but then it makes total sense.  I only use a couple of commands.
2014-08-11T21:47:54Z AeroNotix: yeah I should give it a go
2014-08-11T21:48:33Z stack`: It added to my emacs/cl learning curve a bit, but made the paren issues disappear almost immediately.
2014-08-11T21:49:01Z AeroNotix: awesome
2014-08-11T21:52:53Z resttime: C-h m was a big help learning how to use paredit for me
2014-08-11T21:53:44Z resttime: and other addons for that manner too
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2014-08-11T21:55:59Z stack`: AeroNotix, cool video.
2014-08-11T21:56:10Z AeroNotix: stack`: ?
2014-08-11T21:56:16Z AeroNotix: oh the vids I added
2014-08-11T21:56:41Z stack`: I'm gonna clone your repo and check it out.
2014-08-11T21:57:02Z AeroNotix: stack`: you'll need my fork of cl-webkit
2014-08-11T21:57:15Z AeroNotix: I need to write up the dependencies
2014-08-11T21:57:19Z stack`: oh
2014-08-11T21:57:20Z AeroNotix: but if you want, go ahead :)
2014-08-11T21:57:46Z AeroNotix: Xach: that's a question I had, at the moment there's no support for "namespaces" with quickload. Right?
2014-08-11T21:57:59Z AeroNotix: i.e. somedude/library and Xach/library are two separate libraries
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2014-08-11T21:58:22Z AeroNotix: and will you be supporting third-party additions without going through you
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2014-08-11T22:03:22Z stack`: AeroNotix: it needs gtk?  Is that a quicklisp package?
2014-08-11T22:03:35Z AeroNotix: yeah
2014-08-11T22:03:47Z AeroNotix: stack`: cl-cffi-gtk
2014-08-11T22:05:38Z AeroNotix: I also have a lot of work with the keybindings that I want to upload, but I am waiting for an answer to https://github.com/stumpwm/stumpwm/issues/123
2014-08-11T22:05:49Z stack`: AeroNotix: (ql:quickload "cl-cffi-gtk") completely locked up CCL...Hmm.
2014-08-11T22:05:53Z AeroNotix: I just borrowed the xkeysym mappings
2014-08-11T22:06:09Z AeroNotix: I don't use CCL, lemme take a look
2014-08-11T22:06:37Z stack`: I've had a couple of lockups before.  Maybe something weird on my system.  Do you use SBCL?
2014-08-11T22:06:43Z AeroNotix: yeah sbcl
2014-08-11T22:06:55Z stack`: I'll try that first then.
2014-08-11T22:06:59Z AeroNotix: oke doke
2014-08-11T22:07:03Z AeroNotix: these issues are good to hear about
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2014-08-11T22:12:23Z stack`: AeroNotix: cl-cffi-gtk seems to not work...
2014-08-11T22:12:29Z AeroNotix: stack`: in what way?
2014-08-11T22:13:00Z AeroNotix: Do you have the required system packages?
2014-08-11T22:13:17Z stack`: (ql:quickload "cl-cffi-gtk") reports "Symbol ~S not found..."
2014-08-11T22:13:27Z AeroNotix: that's... weird
2014-08-11T22:13:34Z AeroNotix: does quicklisp care about strings vs keywords?
2014-08-11T22:13:41Z AeroNotix: I usually load stuff with keywords
2014-08-11T22:13:45Z stack`: system-apropos doesn't find it either.
2014-08-11T22:13:47Z AeroNotix: (ql:quickload :cl-cffi-gtk)
2014-08-11T22:14:46Z stack`: aborts - system not found.  Have they pulled it off quicklisp?
2014-08-11T22:14:49Z jaimef: if only quickload was elisp compat
2014-08-11T22:15:31Z AeroNotix: yikes
2014-08-11T22:15:51Z AeroNotix: stack`: unknown, friend.
2014-08-11T22:15:55Z AeroNotix: The project is on github
2014-08-11T22:16:01Z AeroNotix: put it in your local-projects
2014-08-11T22:16:30Z slyrus: so... why does ASDF have :around-compile but not, e.g., :around-load?
2014-08-11T22:17:04Z stack`: Is it this one: https://github.com/crategus/cl-cffi-gtk
2014-08-11T22:17:28Z AeroNotix: stack`: yep
2014-08-11T22:18:23Z stack`: ok, loading all the crap now.
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2014-08-11T22:19:17Z AeroNotix: awesum!
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2014-08-11T22:19:45Z Xach: AeroNotix: i missed the context, is there still a conversation to have?
2014-08-11T22:20:04Z Xach: gendl: i am feeling too sick to travel & conference unfortunately
2014-08-11T22:20:53Z AeroNotix: Xach: Namespaced quicklisp packages and user submitted packages, are these something you've thought about?
2014-08-11T22:21:32Z Xach: AeroNotix: What does namespaced mean?
2014-08-11T22:21:39Z Bicyclidine: user submitted? what in quicklisp isn't user submitted?
2014-08-11T22:22:06Z AeroNotix: Bicyclidine: I thought you have to submit to Xach and then he'll add it there
2014-08-11T22:22:15Z AeroNotix: Xach: like someuser/project and Xach/project
2014-08-11T22:22:22Z jasom: AeroNotix: you can already make custom distributions built on top of quicklisp; it's all user configurable
2014-08-11T22:22:23Z Bicyclidine: Isn't that a user submission?
2014-08-11T22:22:24Z AeroNotix: so people could have forks of projects etc
2014-08-11T22:22:33Z AeroNotix: Bicyclidine: but it's gated, is what I mean
2014-08-11T22:23:40Z Bicyclidine: Oh, then you want custom distributions like jasom said, though I don't know if the documentation has improved.
2014-08-11T22:23:49Z AeroNotix: Bicyclidine: oke doke
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2014-08-11T22:23:54Z AeroNotix: I'll take a look later
2014-08-11T22:24:05Z AeroNotix: are these custom distributions replicatable easily?
2014-08-11T22:24:14Z AeroNotix: e.g. can I just say to people "use xyz" and it'll work?
2014-08-11T22:24:15Z Bicyclidine: As I understand, quicklisp is built to allow multiple "dist"ributions, but in the normal setup there's only one, Xach's. Each distrubition has information on where to get systems and stuff.
2014-08-11T22:24:26Z AeroNotix: hmm ok
2014-08-11T22:24:30Z Xach: AeroNotix: The idea is that you can provide your own sets of software under a different URL.
2014-08-11T22:24:30Z AeroNotix: I'll poke the docs later
2014-08-11T22:24:34Z Xach: no docs, sorry :(
2014-08-11T22:24:35Z AeroNotix: Xach: roger
2014-08-11T22:25:04Z Xach: AeroNotix: you can also just drop your own preferred library into an asdf-searched directory and it will override what's in quicklisp
2014-08-11T22:25:29Z stack`: AeroNotix: So what is the right way to load lispkit?
2014-08-11T22:25:34Z Xach: e.g. if the foobar quicklisp provides needs a local patch, you can put a checkout of foobar in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ and modify it, and that local one will override
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2014-08-11T22:25:44Z AeroNotix: stack`: I just (ql:quickload :lispkit)
2014-08-11T22:25:47Z AeroNotix: in SLIME
2014-08-11T22:26:10Z AeroNotix: Xach: this is what I do at the moment
2014-08-11T22:26:20Z AeroNotix: I want to provide those patches to people easily, how does one do that?
2014-08-11T22:26:37Z AeroNotix: e.g. with stack` I want to allow he/she to use my fork of cl-webkit
2014-08-11T22:26:51Z AeroNotix: since the one in the official quicklisp doesn't have a full cffi binding
2014-08-11T22:26:55Z Xach: AeroNotix: You could say "Check out my fork into ~/quicklisp/local-projects/" and it will use yours
2014-08-11T22:26:56Z stack`: AeroNotix: that's what I thought, but somehow it is not found.  I cloned lispkit and cl-webkit into my local-projects...
2014-08-11T22:27:24Z AeroNotix: Xach: that's different from the "normal" flow. You know what I mean?
2014-08-11T22:27:38Z AeroNotix: stack`: (ql:quickload :lispkit) ?
2014-08-11T22:28:11Z Xach: AeroNotix: There has to be *some* user action to override, and I think it's fairly minimal, as those things go.
2014-08-11T22:28:13Z jaimef: System "lispkit" not found
2014-08-11T22:28:13Z jaimef:  
2014-08-11T22:28:25Z stack`: Ditto
2014-08-11T22:28:27Z AeroNotix: jaimef: they have it locally
2014-08-11T22:28:31Z jaimef: oic
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2014-08-11T22:28:44Z stack`: I should have it locally.  Crap.
2014-08-11T22:28:57Z AeroNotix: yeah, it's not in quicklisp
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2014-08-11T22:29:42Z stack`: aw plup.  I changed my local directory.  What a foola!
2014-08-11T22:30:41Z Xach: AeroNotix: in some glorious tooled and documented future, i'd like library providers to be able to easily publish their sets, and library consumers to easily do something like (ql:install-dist ""). But that's still an extra override step, of sorts.
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2014-08-11T22:31:03Z stack`: AeroNotix:  do I need to install webkit libraries?
2014-08-11T22:31:11Z AeroNotix: stack`: systemwide ones, yes
2014-08-11T22:31:23Z AeroNotix: Xach: indeed, that'd be awesome
2014-08-11T22:31:35Z AeroNotix: Xach: development help or donations ?
2014-08-11T22:32:12Z slyrus: rpg: around?
2014-08-11T22:32:28Z rpg: slyrus: yup.
2014-08-11T22:32:38Z slyrus: got time for some stupid asdf questions?
2014-08-11T22:33:12Z AeroNotix: haha
2014-08-11T22:33:23Z Xach: AeroNotix: it would be cool to see better dist publishing tools. mine are very ad hoc and thrown together. they work, but i wouldn't want to foist them on other people.
2014-08-11T22:33:32Z Xach: slyrus: was ist los?
2014-08-11T22:34:02Z AeroNotix: Xach: open source?
2014-08-11T22:34:03Z Xach: my employer lets me work on quicklisp part of the time, but i haven't taken that time in the past month or so due to other stuff
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2014-08-11T22:34:23Z Xach: I can be contracted to work on Quicklisp, though.
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2014-08-11T22:35:04Z AeroNotix: heh, wish I had infinite money to do crazy things like that
2014-08-11T22:35:11Z slyrus: I'm read'ing some s-expressions and I want to do so from a different package than the current *package* and I'm trying to figure out an elegant scheme to do so. At the same time I'm wading through the mud I created in my smarkup-asdf and asdf-objects things and I'm trying to make sense of the new ASDF :in-order-to and selfward-operation bits.
2014-08-11T22:35:12Z AeroNotix: I could donate my time though
2014-08-11T22:35:41Z slyrus: I abused the notion of "compile" and think instead I should use the "prepare" op, which I'm not sure existed at the time.
2014-08-11T22:35:45Z stack`: AeroNotix: do you know off-hand which linux packages are required?  I got libwebkit-dev, but I think it's still missing webkitgtk ...
2014-08-11T22:36:04Z gendl: CLF (Common Lisp Foundation) is working to get common-lisp.net re-launched, with conspicuous donate buttons for Quicklisp and a few other projects.
2014-08-11T22:36:21Z gendl: The plan now is to launch the re-designed common-lisp.net on August 18 (day after ILC).
2014-08-11T22:36:23Z slyrus: Then I want to load my stuff with a different package. I see :around-compile but no analogous :around-load.
2014-08-11T22:36:42Z slyrus: I'm sure some combination of defclass/defmethod statements will get what I want, but I'm trying to figure a decent approac here.
2014-08-11T22:37:02Z AeroNotix: stack`: these are all the related packages I have on my system: https://gist.github.com/AeroNotix/a892679c4a0baa099a96
2014-08-11T22:37:16Z stack`: Thanks
2014-08-11T22:38:00Z AeroNotix: mw
2014-08-11T22:38:03Z AeroNotix: nw
2014-08-11T22:38:44Z gendl: Quicklisp will be one of a few key infrastructure projects for which we want to canvass for donations. Others are common-lisp.net site itself (and services), cl-test-grid, and possibly asdf (if they are set up to accept donations).
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2014-08-11T22:38:57Z stack`: I think libkitgtk is in Gnome 3 PPA or some bullshit.
2014-08-11T22:39:44Z gendl: Starting August 18 I think there will be a three-month drive for donations for common-lisp.net, to get the newly launched site struly stabilized. After that I hope we can keep it going steadily.
2014-08-11T22:39:49Z AeroNotix: gendl: do you mean that precludes it from being open source?
2014-08-11T22:39:59Z gendl: precludes what?
2014-08-11T22:40:16Z slyrus: shouldn't the ASDF around-compile stuff be generalized to :around-operation?
2014-08-11T22:40:21Z AeroNotix: all of quicklisp being open source
2014-08-11T22:40:41Z gendl: no. as far as I know the plan is for all of quicklisp to remain open-source.
2014-08-11T22:40:48Z AeroNotix: wait, it *is*
2014-08-11T22:40:53Z AeroNotix: I was under the impression that it wasn't
2014-08-11T22:41:02Z AeroNotix tries to pretend he didn't say anything
2014-08-11T22:41:33Z AeroNotix: was it always open sauce?
2014-08-11T22:41:52Z ejbs: gendl: Nice to hear a lot of social stuff happening. AeroNotix: Since release
2014-08-11T22:42:07Z AeroNotix: huh
2014-08-11T22:42:11Z Xach: AeroNotix: quicklisp has always been open source.
2014-08-11T22:42:13Z AeroNotix: Not sure how I got that mixed up
2014-08-11T22:42:24Z gendl: CLF donations earmarked for Quicklisp will probably go through Xach’s employer, and can be used to fund him to spend some days e.g. creating a usable manual.
2014-08-11T22:42:34Z Xach would really like to make a usable manual
2014-08-11T22:42:40Z AeroNotix: incredible
2014-08-11T22:43:00Z Xach: I've tried to make many things hookable and extensible (many things remain) but without documentation they are underexploited
2014-08-11T22:43:02Z ejbs: slyrus: Bind *package* with a let, poof done
2014-08-11T22:43:11Z AeroNotix: Xach: how does quicklisp deal with versions?
2014-08-11T22:43:13Z Xach: AeroNotix: did I sign you up for the Quicklisp Platinum Enterprise plan a while back?
2014-08-11T22:43:17Z AeroNotix: Xach: haha
2014-08-11T22:43:19Z AeroNotix: ;)
2014-08-11T22:43:23Z wasamasa: what the hell am I reading
2014-08-11T22:43:45Z rpg: slyrus: I'm having a little trouble getting everything mixed in with the other strings. Any chance for a paste? even one that simply says all you're trying to do?
2014-08-11T22:43:50Z Xach: AeroNotix: the same way the lisp world in general does: use the latest of everything that works together. so, it is crude, but it's a strategy.
2014-08-11T22:43:50Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: did you get the memo? #lisp is moving to paid-for access
2014-08-11T22:43:58Z AeroNotix: Xach: huh, ojk
2014-08-11T22:43:59Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: nope
2014-08-11T22:44:10Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: yeah starting next week. Bummer :(
2014-08-11T22:44:13Z Xach: AeroNotix: quicklisp also allows you to go back to previous versions en masse.
2014-08-11T22:44:15Z rpg: slyrus: I think I have some examples in a project where we do what you want to do.
2014-08-11T22:44:29Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: time to move to ##lisp-community then
2014-08-11T22:44:37Z AeroNotix: Xach: so the whole set of packages is thought of as a version?
2014-08-11T22:44:44Z Xach: AeroNotix: so, for example, if you started your project in june of 2012, you can get all the libraries that were current at that time.
2014-08-11T22:44:48Z AeroNotix: instead of individual dependency graphs being versioned
2014-08-11T22:44:52Z Xach: AeroNotix: yeah.
2014-08-11T22:45:00Z AeroNotix: ok, this is a good strategy
2014-08-11T22:45:05Z Xach: that's how the official dist works. other dists could, I think, take different approaches.
2014-08-11T22:45:11Z AeroNotix: yeah
2014-08-11T22:45:13Z rpg: slyrus: General suggestion -- avoid skipping the filesystem. If you are doing an operation, make sure its effects are visible in the filesystem. We have violated this rule, and it's led to no end of pain.
2014-08-11T22:45:16Z AeroNotix: I get it
2014-08-11T22:45:21Z Xach: it works ok because in general the lisp world is relatively slow and moves relatively slowly.
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2014-08-11T22:45:26Z Xach: it's not node or java
2014-08-11T22:45:33Z AeroNotix: Makes sense
2014-08-11T22:45:36Z AeroNotix: ok
2014-08-11T22:45:52Z Xach: I wish I could also say "Look at chapter 2 in the User's Guide for the details"
2014-08-11T22:46:02Z Xach: Not yet, though
2014-08-11T22:46:22Z AeroNotix: it is a bit cryptic at the moment
2014-08-11T22:47:00Z Xach: I'm not proud of that. Too few hours in the day, unfortunately.
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2014-08-11T22:48:37Z wasamasa: sounds a bit like the situation with eshell and its manual
2014-08-11T22:48:44Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: eshell doesn't exist
2014-08-11T22:48:55Z rpg: slyrus: Sorry -- did I miss you?
2014-08-11T22:48:56Z AeroNotix: I refuse to acknowledge its existence
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2014-08-11T22:49:14Z AeroNotix: Xach: lets hope you get the funding to work on that, then :)
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2014-08-11T22:51:39Z ejbs: http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/2da1td/looking_for_a_lisp_programmer/
2014-08-11T22:51:44Z ejbs is wondering what this is about
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2014-08-11T22:53:29Z AeroNotix: redditor for 26 minutes
2014-08-11T22:53:38Z wasamasa: ejbs: clearly the downfall of hackernews
2014-08-11T22:53:40Z AeroNotix: (scam &rest people-who-are-stupid)
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2014-08-11T22:54:24Z wasamasa: and two upvotes already
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2014-08-11T22:54:36Z AeroNotix: him + his mother
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2014-08-11T23:03:29Z stack`: But you could help many people, globally!
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2014-08-11T23:10:46Z spockokt: oh man a $0 budget! i would've settled for monopoly money but this is even better
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2014-08-11T23:17:15Z stack`: At least he didn't ask you to invest
2014-08-11T23:17:52Z stack`: I wonder why he didn't have succes in posting to other media.
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2014-08-11T23:21:20Z wasamasa stalks AeroNotix on reddit
2014-08-11T23:21:38Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: Not sure if good..
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2014-08-11T23:28:45Z AeroNotix: robin williams is kill
2014-08-11T23:28:50Z AeroNotix: sheeeeit
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2014-08-11T23:31:27Z ejbs: Holy shit
2014-08-11T23:31:55Z kristof: Hoax.
2014-08-11T23:32:05Z kristof: Although the Guardian reported it as true. Anyway, that's off-topic.
2014-08-11T23:33:10Z AeroNotix: kristof: I really hope it's fake
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2014-08-11T23:33:37Z ejbs: kristof: His publicist has confirmed it
2014-08-11T23:33:43Z spockokt: :(
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2014-08-11T23:35:31Z kristof: CNN just reported it, ok.
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2014-08-11T23:51:08Z edran: http://i.imgur.com/hO2gGqa.jpg
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2014-08-11T23:52:06Z edran: or here: http://media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/william-dead.pdf :(
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2014-08-11T23:53:38Z jaimef: poet society?
2014-08-11T23:53:58Z kristof: Let's keep it on-topic. :P
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2014-08-11T23:54:51Z edran: I think that's sort of Freenode-wide topic... (But I agree)
2014-08-11T23:55:42Z edran: right now, at least :P
2014-08-11T23:56:04Z jaimef: (pushash 'robin deadpoets)
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2014-08-12T01:23:23Z paul0: 'The name "ASDF/USER" does not designate any package.'
2014-08-12T01:23:31Z paul0: my quicklisp is broken
2014-08-12T01:23:58Z paul0: Xach, are you around? I've ran (ql:update-all-dists) and now quicklisp doesn't work anymore
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2014-08-12T01:28:28Z Xach: paul0: ok. what are the symptoms?
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2014-08-12T01:29:25Z paul0: Xach, after (ql:update-all-dists), I couldn't load cl-rethinkdb anymore
2014-08-12T01:29:41Z Xach: paul0: What happens when you try?
2014-08-12T01:29:44Z paul0: I'll pastebin the output
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2014-08-12T01:30:25Z paul0: Xach, http://paste.lisp.org/display/143372
2014-08-12T01:31:01Z Xach: paul0: what CL are you using?
2014-08-12T01:31:20Z paul0: Xach, sbcl 1.0.50
2014-08-12T01:32:03Z Xach: paul0: I think that is too old to work with the latest version of the software involved
2014-08-12T01:32:18Z Xach: 1.0.50 is pretty old.
2014-08-12T01:32:20Z paul0:  1.2.2 is the latest, I'll update
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2014-08-12T01:41:06Z joe-w-bimedina: Can someone tell me why if I run (defun h (x) (setf x 2)) and the (defparameter s 3) and then (h s), S isn't set to 2 when I run S at the REPL, and how I could make this happen without returning anything from the H function, like (defun h (x) (setf x 2)x)  then: (setf s (h s))
2014-08-12T01:41:54Z |3b|: you passed 3 to H, why would some random global be modified?
2014-08-12T01:42:28Z |3b|: and even if it did work with globals, it wouldn't work with local variables
2014-08-12T01:43:29Z |3b|: if you want to modify bindings you need a macro, or you can pass a function that modifies the binding
2014-08-12T01:46:50Z bcoburn`: I'm mildly surprised (setf 3 2) doesn't result in some sort of error
2014-08-12T01:47:10Z |3b|: it calls (setf x 2), not (setf 3 2)
2014-08-12T01:47:22Z |3b|: x is a valid place, but it is completely unrelated to S
2014-08-12T01:48:19Z bcoburn`: I'm confused, then.  what does (h s) above actually do?
2014-08-12T01:48:32Z Guthur: in other words the value of s was bound to x in the contxt of h
2014-08-12T01:48:38Z bcoburn`: oh, I see
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2014-08-12T01:49:04Z |3b|: (h s) calls the function H with the current value of S, which was 3. inside that call, X is bound to that value, S then overwrites that value with 2, which is also returned from H
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2014-08-12T01:49:06Z csziacobus: its equivalent to (let ((x s)) (setf x 3))
2014-08-12T01:49:12Z |3b|: sorry, H overwrite
2014-08-12T01:49:14Z |3b|: s...
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2014-08-12T01:50:42Z paul0: Xach, yeah, updating sbcl fixed the issue
2014-08-12T01:50:47Z paul0: Xach, thanks
2014-08-12T01:50:51Z joe-w-bimedina: sorry about that my alerts were off..
2014-08-12T01:51:00Z Xach: paul0: glad to hear it
2014-08-12T01:52:02Z joe-w-bimedina: #b: how would I go about passing a function that modifies the binding?
2014-08-12T01:52:12Z joe-w-bimedina: *3b:
2014-08-12T01:52:59Z csziacobus: joe-w-bimedina: (defun h () (setf s 2))
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2014-08-12T01:53:51Z |3b|: (defun h (f) (funcall f 2)) (defparameter *s* 3) (h (lambda (a) (setf *s* a))) *s* ?
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2014-08-12T01:54:25Z |3b|: which would also work for (let ((s 3)) (h (lambda (a) (setf s a))) s)
2014-08-12T01:54:38Z |3b|: but would be pretty annoying to use
2014-08-12T01:54:40Z joe-w-bimedina: csziacobus  I would need a parameter I have set beforehand like (defparameter s 0) to be changed inside the function but the s would need to be provided as input to the function to make that happen
2014-08-12T01:55:00Z |3b|: much easier to just return a value and let user store it wherever they want or use it directly or whatever
2014-08-12T01:55:33Z Guthur: or avoid gratuitous global mutation
2014-08-12T01:55:34Z |3b|: and don't use defparameter with names like "S", add ** and name it like "*S*"
2014-08-12T01:55:49Z joe-w-bimedina: I like how that operates its like you have a src param and a dest param, is why I am doing it
2014-08-12T01:56:05Z |3b|: since defparameter modifies the behavior of /any/ variable named with that S symbol, even local variables
2014-08-12T01:56:22Z csziacobus: if its global theres no reason you need to pass it to a function explicitly
2014-08-12T01:57:05Z csziacobus: and if you want a source param to a destination param you can just use setf
2014-08-12T01:57:35Z csziacobus: why do you _need_ to have a function with a global as a parameter to mutate it?
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2014-08-12T01:58:56Z joe-w-bimedina: Thanks 3b: that worked, csziacobus: in the example I provided I couldnt get that to work
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2014-08-12T02:00:56Z Guthur: joe-w-bimedina: that pattern really smells, i think your solution could be improved
2014-08-12T02:01:11Z csziacobus: whats wrong with writing (setf *s* 2) directly
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2014-08-12T02:01:17Z Guthur: do you want to post what you have, so that you can get some advice
2014-08-12T02:02:24Z joe-w-bimedina: it was a basic ? I havent written the code yet
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2014-08-12T02:02:52Z Guthur: ah, cool, then don't write that code, hehe
2014-08-12T02:03:15Z joe-w-bimedina: :)
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2014-08-12T02:21:26Z pjb: sthalik: You can have an eval in erc channels with: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143373
2014-08-12T02:21:52Z pjb: (lisp-implementation-type) --> "Clozure Common Lisp"
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2014-08-12T02:36:04Z pjb: stack`: of course, this is lisp, and there's a way to substitute symbols in sexps: http://paste.lisp.org/+32MM
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2014-08-12T02:45:02Z pjb: jasom: You may use (defun (setf f) (new-value args) …)  and (defun f (args) …)
2014-08-12T02:46:05Z pjb: jasom: You can also use define-setf-expander to define the setter, since: "access-fn---a symbol that names a function or macro."
2014-08-12T02:46:37Z pjb: But define-setf-expander is only needed in the most sophistacted cases.  In general, defsetf or more simply (setf f) is all that is needed.
2014-08-12T02:46:50Z pjb: Notice also that (setf f) can be a generic function with methods.
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2014-08-12T02:48:28Z Guthur: ...a powerful tool
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2014-08-12T02:49:46Z Aranshada|M: One day I'll understand all of this. And I'll be able to use emacs.
2014-08-12T02:50:02Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-08-12T02:50:02Z minion: beach, memo from pjb: well, as long as ILC is not organized on Mars, I don't see how distance can be a problem really :-)
2014-08-12T02:50:07Z pjb: AeroNotix: the problem is not so much CFFI than the language in which libraries accessed thru CFFI is written in (or rather, the uncontrolled and speed-obsessed compilers used to compile those languages).
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2014-08-12T02:51:05Z beach: pjb: Some people have budget constrains, unfortunately.
2014-08-12T02:51:21Z Guthur: too true
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2014-08-12T02:51:30Z pjb: Some things just cannot be bought, yet, such as a travel to Mars ;-)
2014-08-12T02:51:31Z Guthur: i really wanted to go to ILC this year
2014-08-12T02:51:57Z Guthur: but flights to Canada were prohibitively expensive from where i am
2014-08-12T02:54:48Z pjb: But you can travel for cheap, if you have time.  If you start six months before arrival time, I'm sure you can get to Canada for less than $50.
2014-08-12T02:54:52Z Guthur: pjb: unfortunately C is the only really common interface language for shared libraries
2014-08-12T02:55:21Z pjb: The problem is not too much the ABI. (It still a speed bump, but not the real problem of C libraries).
2014-08-12T02:55:34Z pjb: The real problem is the uncontrolledness of the code generated by C compilers.
2014-08-12T02:55:56Z pjb: If you compiled those libraries with Vacietis, and called them thru the FFI, that would be good (if slow).
2014-08-12T02:56:29Z Zhivago: Just stick it in another process.
2014-08-12T02:56:44Z Zhivago: Communicate via shm or something to reduce overhead.
2014-08-12T02:57:22Z pjb: That's a workaround, but doesn't solve the problem that this process will crash.  A lot.
2014-08-12T02:58:00Z Zhivago: As long as it crashes somewhere else ... :)
2014-08-12T02:58:18Z pjb: Now, perhaps we lispers should just write compilers for all those other programming languages.  Targetting Cleavir.
2014-08-12T02:58:31Z Guthur: pjb: Vacietis seems interesting, though it appears common for libraries to be written in C++ with C interface, if you are fortunate, sometimes there is not even a C interface
2014-08-12T02:58:42Z Guthur: in that case not even Vacietis would help
2014-08-12T02:58:50Z pjb: Yes, now there's a nice summer project for Vacietis: upgrade it to compile C++ :-)
2014-08-12T02:59:01Z Guthur: only one summer
2014-08-12T02:59:07Z Guthur: ?
2014-08-12T02:59:15Z pjb: A short summer, on Neptune.
2014-08-12T02:59:35Z pjb: Nah, I exagerate really, it wouldn't be that long to write a C++ compiler.
2014-08-12T03:00:04Z Guthur: really, the spec is like 1200 pages
2014-08-12T03:00:22Z pjb: See, not bigger than CL.
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2014-08-12T03:10:39Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: are you there?
2014-08-12T03:10:53Z joe-w-bimedina: yes I sure am, what's up?
2014-08-12T03:11:06Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: do you know C or C++?
2014-08-12T03:11:39Z joe-w-bimedina: enough to convert many C++ OpenCv programs to Lisp
2014-08-12T03:12:04Z joe-w-bimedina: and C programs too
2014-08-12T03:12:10Z pjb: Good.  Can you explain why void h(int x){x=3} int z=0; h(z); z==0 instead of 3?
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2014-08-12T03:12:57Z Aranshada|M: Pass by value.
2014-08-12T03:13:06Z pjb: I'm asking joe-w-bimedina .
2014-08-12T03:13:39Z Aranshada|M: :/ didn't realize it was a test specifically for him.
2014-08-12T03:13:54Z pjb: I missed the joe-w-bimedina: on that line, sorry.
2014-08-12T03:14:08Z beach: Aranshada|M: pjb is trying to teach joe-w-bimedina something.
2014-08-12T03:14:31Z pjb: Actually, he was told above. I'm trying to understand why he had this question about CL and not about C.
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2014-08-12T03:14:59Z joe-w-bimedina: no I think its the same thing I just tried to figure out in Lisp
2014-08-12T03:15:20Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: you understand why in C we have void h(int x){x=3} int z=0; h(z); z==0 instead of 3, right?
2014-08-12T03:17:08Z joe-w-bimedina: not really , well I am used to all the extra = operators in OpenCv havent focused in the original actually
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2014-08-12T03:17:46Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: ah right.  You never considered it in C either it seems.
2014-08-12T03:17:55Z pjb: In the case of pascal, there is syntax to explicitely pass parameter by value or by reference f(value:integer;var reference;integer).
2014-08-12T03:18:00Z pjb: But in the case of CL and of C, there's no such syntax, all parameters are passed by value.
2014-08-12T03:18:28Z joe-w-bimedina: no I didn't, I dont usually consider in C or C++
2014-08-12T03:18:43Z pjb: Some languages even have IN, INOUT and OUT parameters  IN are by value, INOUT by reference, and OUT are "by reference" only for output.
2014-08-12T03:18:57Z joe-w-bimedina: 3b gave me good stuff though
2014-08-12T03:19:17Z pjb: And some languages have parameter passing "by name" which is an even harder concept. I never really understood it :-)
2014-08-12T03:19:25Z pjb: Yes. 3b explaination was ok.
2014-08-12T03:19:36Z joe-w-bimedina: I appreciate the extra help a lot though
2014-08-12T03:19:51Z pjb: I'll just add that in lisp in general we prefer to write functions without side effects, so we instead return a new value.
2014-08-12T03:19:59Z pjb: (setf x (do-something-to x))
2014-08-12T03:20:13Z pjb: instead of (do-something-to x) (assert (has-a-new-value-p x))
2014-08-12T03:20:33Z beach: pjb: I am no longer surprised about how little some programmers know.  Some of them programmed my satellite TV box, apparently.
2014-08-12T03:20:34Z pjb: So we can do (list (do-something-to x) (do-something-else-to x)) without changing the value of x.
2014-08-12T03:20:47Z pjb: beach: LOL :-)
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2014-08-12T03:21:02Z joe-w-bimedina: it has to match my other c++ bindings so that is why I asked that
2014-08-12T03:22:12Z pjb: Now, while in C++ there's only by value parameters, there also are independent references, so that you can combine both to pass a reference by value: void h(int& x){x=3}  int z=0; h(z); z==3;
2014-08-12T03:22:43Z pjb: we can also build references in Lisp. Using closures.
2014-08-12T03:23:40Z pjb: (defun h (x) (funcall x '= 3))  (let ((z 0)) (h (lambda (op &optional val) (if (eq '= op) (setf z val) z))) (assert (= z 3)))
2014-08-12T03:23:58Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm still tuning in but got a kid here is why its taking me longer to answer sometimes
2014-08-12T03:24:23Z pjb: Of course, you can write a macro to hide this boilerplate and write instead (defun h (x) (setf (deref x) 3)) (h (& z))'
2014-08-12T03:24:39Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: no problem :-)
2014-08-12T03:25:09Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks for the  help but shes a wild one
2014-08-12T03:25:21Z pjb: But as I said, it's preferable to use functions without side effect, so I've never seen such references used in real lisp programs.
2014-08-12T03:25:34Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: teach her lisp programming! :-)
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2014-08-12T03:25:57Z joe-w-bimedina: I do, we have fun with it...she's smart
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2014-08-12T03:26:37Z pjb: Be happy!
2014-08-12T03:26:52Z joe-w-bimedina: you too:)
2014-08-12T03:27:02Z Zhivago: Also, those aren't references so much as accessor functions.
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2014-08-12T03:39:08Z pjb: Zhivago: arguably.  The closure definitely contains a reference to the place.  All right, this reference is wrapped into code, but this is only an implementation detail (and a very object oriented aspect of it, since each place has such its own "method" to access it).  It's not as low level as dealing with an address, but again, this let us avoid crashes.
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2014-08-12T04:03:59Z Zhivago: Wrapped in an accessor function, sure.
2014-08-12T04:04:29Z Aranshada|W: I like this channel.
2014-08-12T04:04:39Z Aranshada|W: Makes me feel smart when I understand what's going on.
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2014-08-12T04:15:30Z viaken: How often is that? Because I'm basically always lost.
2014-08-12T04:17:23Z pjb: viaken: what puzzles you?
2014-08-12T04:17:39Z viaken catches up on current scrollback
2014-08-12T04:19:38Z viaken: Actually, all the pass-by-value/pass-by-reference stuff I understood! :) Thank you, Dan Grossman, for your programming languages course!
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2014-08-12T04:23:26Z joe-w-bimedina: pjb: if you have a sec, I could use a hand figuring out why this function: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/d2c5cafdf6d6f2c7d592 isn't working, I used 3b's advice but..
2014-08-12T04:23:57Z joe-w-bimedina: still trying to figure out your
2014-08-12T04:24:03Z joe-w-bimedina: *yours
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2014-08-12T04:27:54Z joe-w-bimedina: oh wait I think I got it
2014-08-12T04:32:22Z viaken: joe-w-bimedina: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143376
2014-08-12T04:32:23Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: It works quite well actually.  It sets the parameter to the value of the other parameter, and then it quits.
2014-08-12T04:32:48Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: You must learn to indent your code.
2014-08-12T04:33:19Z joe-w-bimedina: ok thanks one sec
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2014-08-12T04:46:20Z joe-w-bimedina: ok it's just when I try to put it all in a function is where I get the error, I made a gist if someone can take a peek https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/076d5302327a19a4a3ff
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2014-08-12T04:47:24Z joe-w-bimedina: self is correct inside the function but whatever param I put in is not set when the function ends
2014-08-12T04:48:02Z beach: *sigh*
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2014-08-12T04:49:06Z Aranshada|W: Not even sure what the '= there is doing. I also never considered putting a defun inside of a defun. I honestly would've just done funcall directly on the lambda.
2014-08-12T04:49:29Z joe-w-bimedina: just trying to finish it up,.. and keep getting hung up on the packaging part...I tried that and got weird error
2014-08-12T04:51:12Z Aranshada|W: Oh. I read it harder and realize why '= is there. :)
2014-08-12T04:52:10Z joe-w-bimedina: the defun in the defun was weird but it was closer than putting the lambda in, success wise
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2014-08-12T05:00:03Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: OK, I'll make one last attempt at making you understand.  What does the following code do: (defparameter *a* 5) (defun f (x) (setf x 10)) (f a)
2014-08-12T05:00:26Z beach: sorry, (f *a*) at the end.
2014-08-12T05:00:40Z beach: (defparameter *a* 5) (defun f (x) (setf x 10)) (f *a*)
2014-08-12T05:00:47Z de-restrict: a=10?
2014-08-12T05:01:17Z joe-w-bimedina: sets *a* inside the defun but not out right
2014-08-12T05:01:22Z beach: de-restrict: I am asking joe-w-bimedina, so as to make him understand.
2014-08-12T05:01:33Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
2014-08-12T05:01:45Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: The VALUE!!!!!! of *a* is passed to f.
2014-08-12T05:01:55Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: f is called with 5.
2014-08-12T05:02:05Z beach: *a* is no longer involved inside f.
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2014-08-12T05:02:15Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: that's CALL BY VALUE!!
2014-08-12T05:02:52Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: it sets the PARAMETER of f, i.e. x to 10, then it quits without any side effect.
2014-08-12T05:03:38Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: Whether you understand that or not, I am now giving up.
2014-08-12T05:03:50Z viaken: joe-w-bimedina: In other words, (f *a*) will parse *a*, then call (f 5). Inside f, x=5, *a* is still the external parameter.
2014-08-12T05:04:23Z viaken: Then the setf sets x to 10, and *a* is completely uninvolved.
2014-08-12T05:04:47Z viaken: Alright, I've got to get some sleep.
2014-08-12T05:04:53Z viaken: Later, and good luck
2014-08-12T05:05:16Z joe-w-bimedina: I get that pjb's code is the right way but I just need to figure out how to put it in a defun, thanks for the extra clues you guys:)
2014-08-12T05:06:17Z Aranshada|W: So is the goal to make a closure over a binding defined by defparameter... or... what?
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2014-08-12T05:07:53Z joe-w-bimedina: Well I have my internal logic ready, If I showed you the code could you tell me where to  how to put the closure in, so the param of my function,self, will get set by the function
2014-08-12T05:10:34Z Aranshada|W: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/19491275/how-do-i-globally-change-a-variable-value-within-function-in-lisp
2014-08-12T05:10:35Z Aranshada|W: Here you go.
2014-08-12T05:11:03Z Aranshada|W: Not actually a closure.
2014-08-12T05:11:09Z Aranshada|W: But I found something closer to what you're trying to do.
2014-08-12T05:11:30Z Bike: weren't you talking about this hours ago
2014-08-12T05:11:50Z joe-w-bimedina: Thanks man...a s.o. ?.. great!...yea, I had a kid here I had to break
2014-08-12T05:12:31Z Aranshada|W: Hmm. Looks like further down in that post, there is an example of how to make kind of pointer-like structure using a closure.
2014-08-12T05:13:52Z joe-w-bimedina: cool, thanks again:)
2014-08-12T05:14:33Z Aranshada|W: Google is so nice to me. I just searched for "lisp setf inside a function" and the first hit was "how do I globally change a variable within a function in lisp."
2014-08-12T05:14:37Z Aranshada|W: It knew, man.
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2014-08-12T05:15:53Z joe-w-bimedina: I'll up my googling, don't know why I skipped google on that one
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2014-08-12T05:21:26Z Aranshada|W: I figured there had to be a way to do it. I just figured it had to be with a closure.
2014-08-12T05:21:52Z Aranshada|W: I had thought "what if the value being passed was a pointer to an object," but I figured making a class just to hold that one parameter might be overkill.
2014-08-12T05:21:56Z stack1: I think the problem here is that (setf self val) will evaluate val before setting self... So you need to pass it as a symbol, perhaps?
2014-08-12T05:21:59Z Aranshada|W: But a cons would work.
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2014-08-12T05:43:49Z wooden: noob here.  i've done "(ql:quickload :fset)" and "(in-package :fset-user)".  now the SBCL prompt says "FSET-USER>".  what is the significance of the prompt?  am i in the namespace of the fset package?  how can i get back to "CL-USER>"?
2014-08-12T05:44:36Z joe-w-bimedina: the macro thing works but is there a way to call the macro inside a setf function and still make it run the same?
2014-08-12T05:45:34Z joe-w-bimedina: wooden: you just run (in-package :cl-user)
2014-08-12T05:46:28Z pjb: wooden: the prompt has absolutely no other significance than "Yo". It's there to inform you that it's ready to read some expression from you.
2014-08-12T05:46:45Z pjb: wooden: in most implementations, the prompt can be configured. You could as well set it to the empty string.
2014-08-12T05:46:59Z H4ns: wooden: the prompt displays the current package.
2014-08-12T05:47:27Z pjb: wooden: that is, the name of the package bound to the variable *package*.
2014-08-12T05:47:36Z pjb: You can change this binding with setf or in-package.
2014-08-12T05:47:49Z pjb: (setf *package* (find-package "CL-USER")) or (in-package "CL-USER")
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2014-08-12T05:50:11Z wooden: thanks, all
2014-08-12T05:50:14Z H4ns: wooden: the current package determines the package in which unqualified symbols are evaluated.  an unqualified symbol has no package component (i.e. no colon, foo vs. package:foo or package::foo)
2014-08-12T05:50:40Z pjb: NOT EVALUATED!!!
2014-08-12T05:50:47Z pjb: INTERNED!
2014-08-12T05:50:57Z H4ns: wooden: a package can use other packages.  most packages use the common-lisp package, which contains the symbols of the common lisp language
2014-08-12T05:51:02Z H4ns: pjb: why are you shouting?
2014-08-12T05:51:22Z H4ns: pjb: i'm not shouting at you even if you give misleading or wrong advice.
2014-08-12T05:51:25Z pjb: BECAUSE YOU ARE WRITING A VERY MISLEADING BULLSHIT.
2014-08-12T05:51:35Z H4ns: pjb: *yawn*  gfas
2014-08-12T05:51:39Z stack1: It's worth a shout.
2014-08-12T05:51:40Z pjb: Which I never do.
2014-08-12T05:51:49Z H4ns: pjb: right.  fuck off.
2014-08-12T05:54:49Z pjb: wooden: *package* is normally only used INTERN, which is usually only called by READ.  So it is only used when reading sexps.
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2014-08-12T05:55:37Z pjb: Of course, you can call read, intern and use *package* at run-time (and sometimes you have to, to make sure new symbols interned by your application are interned in the right package), but a lot of programs don't use it beyond the stage of reading the source.
2014-08-12T05:55:47Z wooden: neither '(in-package "CL-USER")' nor '(in-package :cl-user)' set the prompt back (although they did change the value of *package*).  this worked, however.  '(setf *package* (find-package "CL-USER"))'  thank you.
2014-08-12T05:56:01Z pjb: wooden: notice that expressions are READ *before* being compiled and long before being evaluated.
2014-08-12T05:56:25Z pjb: wooden: you would have to evaluate those forms in the REPL, not in a lisp buffer.
2014-08-12T05:56:39Z wooden: pjb: i did
2014-08-12T05:56:44Z pjb: Each lisp buffer can have in-package forms with different packages.
2014-08-12T05:56:57Z beach: wooden: weird!
2014-08-12T05:56:58Z pjb: and slime tracks them and reads the forms in those different packages.
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2014-08-12T05:57:44Z wooden: pjb: at the risk of not getting any more help/advice i must state that i am using vim/slimv, not emacs/slime.  so maybe things are slightly different for me.
2014-08-12T05:58:12Z pjb: Possibly. I wouldn't know :-/
2014-08-12T05:58:35Z stack1: (in-package :cl-user) should really work in REPL...
2014-08-12T05:58:42Z pjb: But you could try: (macroexpand-1 '(in-package :cl-user)) and see that it should do the same.
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2014-08-12T05:59:52Z beach: stack1: Right, unless the symbol IN-PACKAGE is not CL:IN-PACKAGE in the current package.
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2014-08-12T06:01:36Z stack1: beach, so true.
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2014-08-12T06:14:12Z beach: stack1: Call me paranoid, but that's why I have started putting this line first in my files: (cl:in-package ...).
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2014-08-12T06:15:27Z beach: But sometimes it comes back to bite me in SICL when I really want IN-PACKAGE to mean something else.
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2014-08-12T06:16:13Z stack1: How often do you really want IN-PACKAGE to mean something else?
2014-08-12T06:16:55Z beach: Not often, fortunately.  But when bootstrapping a new system, that might be exactly what I need.
2014-08-12T06:17:23Z stack1: Makes sense.
2014-08-12T06:19:17Z pjb: beach: yes, that's because if ibcl, that I just use (in-package …), not (cl:in-package …).
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2014-08-12T06:20:11Z beach: pjb: Yes, I see.  ibcl?
2014-08-12T06:20:18Z pjb: It's the same for defpackage, defsystem, and other toplevel system construction forms.  You may want to avoid too much control on them, so that your sources can easily be used in different contexts.
2014-08-12T06:20:39Z beach: pjb: Yes, I know the problem all too well.
2014-08-12T06:20:43Z pjb: ibcl is a little proof of concept: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/
2014-08-12T06:21:29Z pjb: Some files (well, one in my libraries) even don't have an in-package, because it's explicitely loaded in two different environments, one to produce a html parser, and another to produce a html generator :-)
2014-08-12T06:22:53Z beach: I understand.  I have considered doing that too.  I am thinking: Rule 1 (most often): use cl:in-package; Rule 2 (occasionally): use in-package; Rule 3 (rarely): don't do anything.
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2014-08-12T06:23:54Z joe-w-bimedina: pjb: can you show me how to do make my entered self parameter at the function here https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/63513647e17c3e2bf06b equal the (rect new-x new-y rect-width rect-height) value at the bottom of that function like we were discussing earlier, been trying to implement your idea for the last few hours  and could use someone to show me exactly how with my function, sorry this is annoying in anyway but I would really like to gra
2014-08-12T06:23:55Z joe-w-bimedina: sp this concept.
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2014-08-12T06:27:25Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: So you want to call set-br with some variable as the first argument, and you want that variable to change as a result of the call?
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2014-08-12T06:27:45Z joe-w-bimedina: exactly, been trying everything
2014-08-12T06:27:47Z beach: joe-w-bimedina: IT IS NOT POSSIBLE BECAUSE CL USES CALL BY VALUE!
2014-08-12T06:28:00Z beach: How many times do we have to say that?
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2014-08-12T06:28:19Z H4ns: man, what is up with you guys, all that shouting all in one morning.
2014-08-12T06:28:31Z beach: H4ns: Sorry! :)
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2014-08-12T06:29:25Z H4ns: beach: ok! :)
2014-08-12T06:29:36Z H4ns: beach: but hey, joe-w-bimedina, 'nuff said.
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2014-08-12T06:30:16Z joe-w-bimedina: I've been given ideas, but the macro idea wont work because this has to end up being a setf function....Still trying the cons idea at the http://stackoverflow.com/questions/19491275/how-do-i-globally-change-a-variable-value-within-function-in-lisp/19493857#19493857 but If I set the *a* param inside the function it doesnt work and I hate to have a global param sticking around in my library.
2014-08-12T06:30:40Z joe-w-bimedina: just hoping for a real example
2014-08-12T06:31:27Z beach: H4ns: Yeah.  I am baffled.  This is the first time I witness something even remotely like it.
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2014-08-12T06:32:29Z joe-w-bimedina: just could use help, these ideas dont seem to work when enclosed in a function
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2014-08-12T06:32:46Z joe-w-bimedina: ignore me if this is annoying, I wont press
2014-08-12T06:34:47Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: that is sound advice, thanks.
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2014-08-12T06:41:08Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: have you ever heard that let is equivalent to lambda?
2014-08-12T06:41:47Z joe-w-bimedina: no, I think I'm on to something with cons though, but jic I wont stop you
2014-08-12T06:42:29Z pjb: well, it is. (let ((x 1) (y 2)) (+ x y)) is the same as ((lambda (x y) (+ x y)) 1 2)
2014-08-12T06:42:59Z pjb: And of course, (defun f (x y) (+ x y)) is equivalent to (setf (fdefinition 'f) (lambda (x y) (+ x y)))
2014-08-12T06:43:23Z pjb: therefore (f 1 2) is equivalent to ((lambda (x y) (+ x y)) 1 2) which is equivalent to  (let ((x 1) (y 2)) (+ x y)).
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2014-08-12T06:44:12Z pjb: And with (defun h (x) (setf x 3)), the form (let ((z 0)) (h z)) is equivalent to (let ((z 0)) (let ((x z)) (setf x 3))).
2014-08-12T06:44:36Z pjb: With this you should see the meaning of passing arguments by value, and why (setf x 3) has absolutenly no effect on z.
2014-08-12T06:45:24Z joe-w-bimedina: I get that part but ... I can bring this home maybe...can you give me like 5 min
2014-08-12T06:45:35Z zRecursive: How to shorten 'lambda to less than 3 characters elegantly ?
2014-08-12T06:45:43Z pjb: Of course, you can also do (let ((z (cons 0 nil))) (let ((x z)) (setf (car x) 3)) (car z)) --> 3
2014-08-12T06:45:58Z pjb: zRecursive: don't bother.
2014-08-12T06:46:04Z csziacobus: zRecursive: use prettify-symbols in emacs if it bothers you
2014-08-12T06:46:19Z pjb: (defun h (x) (setf (car x) 3))  (let ((z (cons 0 nil))) (h z) (car z))
2014-08-12T06:48:23Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: perhaps you want to do that: http://paste.lisp.org/+32MQ
2014-08-12T06:48:25Z zRecursive: If lambda used so often, i will be convenient to type little character like "fun" in erlang, "\" in haskell ...
2014-08-12T06:48:47Z pjb: No it's not.
2014-08-12T06:48:56Z zRecursive: why ?
2014-08-12T06:49:13Z pjb: Because it becomes syntax which gives the semi-colon cancer.
2014-08-12T06:49:19Z H4ns: zRecursive: it is not used as often as you might think :)
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2014-08-12T06:49:44Z pjb: Of course, you can (global-set-key (kbd "A-l") (lambda () (interactive) (insert "lambda")))
2014-08-12T06:49:50Z H4ns: zRecursive: at least not in its explicit form.  and if it is, "lambda" nicely stands out to indicate that something non-linear might be happening.
2014-08-12T06:49:53Z pjb: and type A-l to get lambda.
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2014-08-12T06:50:43Z H4ns: zRecursive: it is possible to shorten it, but as that changes the surface syntax, it will make your code harder to read for other people.  a high price for a little convencience.
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2014-08-12T06:51:09Z zRecursive: i see
2014-08-12T06:51:58Z H4ns: zRecursive: in general, when learning a new language, it is part of the learning experience to adopt to the surface syntax.  lisp gives you tools to change the surface syntax, but those tools are not meant to short-cut through the learning experience.
2014-08-12T06:53:09Z zRecursive: yeah
2014-08-12T06:53:14Z joe-w-bimedina: pjb, thank you very much, that completely escaped me to use mem-aref, I cant tell you how much  appreciate your help and bearing with me tonight, as well as everyone else who helped..
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2014-08-12T09:07:12Z beach: I think I pretty much finished my ILC slides.  If anyone wants to have a look, see http://metamodular.com/slides.pdf
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2014-08-12T09:09:15Z pjb: beach: I think you should increase a little the font size.
2014-08-12T09:09:30Z beach: Hmm.  OK.  I'll try.
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2014-08-12T09:09:48Z pjb: I find the white line on the left side of the blue header to be irritating.
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2014-08-12T09:10:02Z beach: I don't know what to do about that.
2014-08-12T09:10:03Z pjb: I'd add a lisp logo somewhere ;-)
2014-08-12T09:10:34Z beach: Luckily, I have a vector version of the lizard.
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2014-08-12T09:11:40Z pjb: Do you mean that all the heap object references are references to cons cells (or 2-slot headers that look like cons cells)?
2014-08-12T09:11:55Z beach: Yes.
2014-08-12T09:12:07Z pjb: That should be nice for the GC.
2014-08-12T09:12:15Z beach: Yep! :)
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2014-08-12T09:14:03Z pjb: The various slides decribing the structure of objects could perhaps be replaced by a single diagram?
2014-08-12T09:14:34Z beach: I tried, but didn't manage.  I'll try again.
2014-08-12T09:16:28Z pjb: Any consideration about parameterizing the garbage collector (for user-provided GC)?
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2014-08-12T09:17:01Z beach: I haven't given that any thought.  GC is still in the design phase.
2014-08-12T09:17:21Z beach: pjb: So you will be there?
2014-08-12T09:18:42Z pjb: Yes.
2014-08-12T09:18:48Z beach: Excellent!
2014-08-12T09:19:11Z pjb: Perhaps it would be nice to show some code example.  For example, compare how a CL function such as replace or remove is implemented in sicl vs. ccl or sbcl.
2014-08-12T09:19:48Z beach: You mean using a generic function for the SICL version?
2014-08-12T09:19:53Z pjb: Yes.
2014-08-12T09:20:07Z beach: That's an idea.
2014-08-12T09:20:10Z pjb: Just to compare the programming style in sicl vs. the other implementations.
2014-08-12T09:20:18Z beach: Yes, I see what you mean.
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2014-08-12T09:21:45Z pjb: For example, IIRC, ccl and sbcl tend to use implementation specific low level functions for optimization (like %i+ instead of +).  The optimization strategies seem to be entirely different in sicl, letting the implementer use a higher level implementation language, ie. CL itself.
2014-08-12T09:22:32Z beach: Right.  But I am not sure I'll be able to get away with it.
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2014-08-12T09:26:55Z beach: pjb: Thanks for taking the time.  I'll see what I can do in the next few days.
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2014-08-12T09:41:58Z beach: pjb: Fixed the size.  Added the lizard to the end slide.  Working on the rest...
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2014-08-12T10:01:36Z splittist: beach: I don't understand the second bullet point on page 17.
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2014-08-12T10:10:43Z TomRS: help me please: I am trying this: (concatenate 'string "A" 1)   and it says that value 1 is not a sequence. how do I concatenate a string with a number?
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2014-08-12T10:12:02Z didi: TomRS: What about (format nil "~a~a" "A" 1)?
2014-08-12T10:12:12Z pjb: TomRS: you use a function that transforms the number into a sequence.
2014-08-12T10:12:31Z pjb: didi: who says "~A" is the function required?
2014-08-12T10:13:09Z pjb: Perhaps one wants "~:R" or  (make-string 1 :initial-element #\*) or something else.
2014-08-12T10:13:25Z pjb: Who knows?  TomRS knows!
2014-08-12T10:13:45Z TomRS: ok thanks a lot for the ideas!!
2014-08-12T10:13:48Z pjb: And a CL implementation certainly doesn't believe it can outguess a human programmer!
2014-08-12T10:13:54Z TomRS: now I'm not stuck anymore :)
2014-08-12T10:13:56Z pjb: Our CL compilers know they place!
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2014-08-12T10:14:09Z pjb: s/they/their/
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2014-08-12T10:15:38Z TomRS: I'll use format function then, thanks a lot! (I thought it was always printing to console, so I used it as print function only so far :) )
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2014-08-12T10:21:07Z didi: If I have arbitrary data encoded as a long hex string, should I (read) it as #x, hence allocating a huge integer or transform it to a bit-vector?
2014-08-12T10:24:35Z didi: I am guessing bit-vector, but it takes work...
2014-08-12T10:24:48Z pnpuff: I was reading the logs about the ILC 2014. beach: I'm waiting for the latest version of the slides if it's possible.
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2014-08-12T10:28:01Z splittist: didi: what are you going to do with it? Will the log[and, nand, nor, ior, etc] functions work for you?
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2014-08-12T10:29:43Z didi: splittist: Only as far as for selecting parts of the data, so `ldb' is probably more useful in this case.
2014-08-12T10:30:24Z beach: splittist: Do you mean about using generic functions for symbols and packages?
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2014-08-12T10:31:07Z Xach: didi: you can use parse-integer on parts of it. no need to make the whole thing into an integer.
2014-08-12T10:31:30Z Xach: didi: like, if you need bits 301 to 327, you can just parse the hex digits that cover that position and refine as needed.
2014-08-12T10:31:33Z beach: pnpuff: The latest version is available now.
2014-08-12T10:31:44Z didi: Xach: Hummm. True.
2014-08-12T10:33:28Z splittist: beach: I didn't really get where "there" is
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2014-08-12T10:33:56Z beach: Oh, that's a typo. Thanks.
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2014-08-12T10:35:19Z beach: splittist: Fixed!
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2014-08-12T10:38:48Z beach: splittist: Will you be at ILC?
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2014-08-12T10:40:00Z splittist: beach: afraid not. I intended too, but just too tricky with family and work. I look forward to the HD livestream though...
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2014-08-12T10:40:18Z beach: Too bad.  Next time maybe.
2014-08-12T10:41:44Z TomRS: the append function returns a ne copy of the lists, leaving the lists unchanged. which function does change the input lists?
2014-08-12T10:41:57Z splittist: beach: Indeed. If there's a way of getting rid of the footnote effect on your title slide, it would look much cleaner.
2014-08-12T10:42:04Z beach: clhs nconc
2014-08-12T10:42:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_nconc.htm
2014-08-12T10:42:15Z TomRS: thanks! will look into them!
2014-08-12T10:42:33Z beach: splittist: Hmm, yeah, OK.  That can probably be fixed.
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2014-08-12T10:44:52Z beach: splittist: Fixed.
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2014-08-12T11:12:47Z bad_alloc: Hi, I'm trying to modularize a project of mine (file A uses some functions form file B and C). I've defined the system in a .asd file. How do I get sbcl to load all required files given that system definition? Can I avoid adding my system to *central-registry*? asdf:operate 'asdf:load-system requires the system to be installed, I just want to specify a path.
2014-08-12T11:14:41Z Xach: bad_alloc: There isn't a short, supported way to load a system from an arbitrary path unknown to asdf.
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2014-08-12T11:16:05Z Xach: bad_alloc: for that reason i usually start all my projects in a directory asdf knows about
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2014-08-12T11:19:53Z TomRS: this: (nconc *list* (format nil "~a=~a" "A" 1))  doesn't seem to change the list in *list* parameter.
2014-08-12T11:20:31Z TomRS: it is still NIL afterwards
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2014-08-12T11:21:11Z Xach: TomRS: there is no structure in NIL to modify.
2014-08-12T11:21:45Z TomRS: Xach: What does that mean?
2014-08-12T11:22:41Z TomRS: I want to append "A=1" to a list (modify the list)
2014-08-12T11:22:44Z Xach: TomRS: it means you still must use the return value to get meaningful values. if what you really want is shorthand for modifying the place *s*, you need a different tool.
2014-08-12T11:23:14Z Xach: Then you should use (setf *s* (nconc *s* (list (format nil ...))))
2014-08-12T11:23:25Z Xach: Though you might start thinking about different data structures at that point.
2014-08-12T11:23:42Z Xach: lists are not great things to use if you want to add things to the end a lot.
2014-08-12T11:24:12Z TomRS: Xach: Thanks! (don't need to add at the end... just need to add to the same list many times)
2014-08-12T11:24:32Z Xach: TomRS: PUSH will do it more concisely, then.
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2014-08-12T11:24:52Z Xach: it modifies a place, so you need not use the return value.
2014-08-12T11:24:53Z TomRS: Xach: Ok! Thanks! I'll check that out too then!
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2014-08-12T11:31:46Z TomRS: Xach: works like a charm with push. thanks again! It's so cool getting help by proffessionals!
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2014-08-12T11:33:15Z Xach lives to serve
2014-08-12T11:33:48Z TomRS: I saw that you guys talked about the ILC2014. I checked out the website. Are you guys all PhD candidates?
2014-08-12T11:34:22Z Xach: No
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2014-08-12T11:34:40Z TomRS: just lisp enthusiasts? :)
2014-08-12T11:34:46Z Xach: I use Lisp because it's easier than anything else I've tried so far (in important-to-me respects)
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2014-08-12T11:35:01Z Xach is a lisp professional
2014-08-12T11:36:07Z TomRS: cool. I start liking it too :)
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2014-08-12T11:54:31Z pjb: TomRS: careful, APPEND is tricky: it doesn't copy the last list!!!
2014-08-12T11:56:39Z wasamasa: pjb: I found a cl package yesterday that promised to implement an equality operator to rule them all
2014-08-12T11:56:46Z pjb: TomRS: and you could read what we've tried to teach joe-w-bimedina earlier (Check the logs). (nconc *list* stuff) will never be able to modify the binding of the variable *list*!
2014-08-12T11:56:55Z pjb: wasamasa: sure.
2014-08-12T11:57:12Z wasamasa: pjb: and didn't give a damn about not being able to do them all
2014-08-12T11:57:24Z wasamasa: pjb: just like the imperfect programming languages I'm used to!
2014-08-12T11:57:27Z pjb: Year, people don't give a damn about anything in general.
2014-08-12T11:57:36Z wasamasa: where we just compare things that make sense to be compared
2014-08-12T11:57:54Z TomRS: pjb: Thanks for the heads-up! I am using the push function now and it works perfectly so far :)
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2014-08-12T11:58:14Z pjb: TomRS: PUSH is not a function!!!
2014-08-12T11:58:20Z wasamasa: lol
2014-08-12T11:58:43Z TomRS: ?
2014-08-12T11:58:47Z pjb: clhs push
2014-08-12T11:58:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_push.htm
2014-08-12T11:58:48Z wasamasa: it's a macro
2014-08-12T11:59:02Z TomRS: ahh
2014-08-12T11:59:42Z TomRS: I see it combines setf and cons
2014-08-12T11:59:47Z TomRS: thanks again!
2014-08-12T12:00:08Z TomRS is a n00b
2014-08-12T12:00:14Z TomRS: :)
2014-08-12T12:00:18Z pjb: This is because it's not a function that it can modify the variable (or the place in general) it's given in argument.
2014-08-12T12:00:40Z pjb: Notice that SETF is not a function either.
2014-08-12T12:00:50Z pjb: and neither is SETQ.
2014-08-12T12:01:00Z TomRS: noted
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2014-08-12T12:02:21Z TomRS: what irc software do you suggest to use? mine sucks :)
2014-08-12T12:02:29Z pjb: erc in emacs.
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2014-08-12T12:03:01Z TomRS: aha
2014-08-12T12:03:21Z TomRS: should have known there is something already made for emacs :)
2014-08-12T12:03:34Z pjb: There are several irc clients made for emacs.
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2014-08-12T12:07:37Z wasamasa uses a different irc client for emacs
2014-08-12T12:07:40Z wasamasa: just because I can
2014-08-12T12:07:51Z TomRS: :)
2014-08-12T12:07:58Z TomRS is reading erc docs
2014-08-12T12:08:14Z TomRS likes having everything in one place
2014-08-12T12:08:15Z wasamasa: also, because erc looked too complex to me
2014-08-12T12:08:19Z wasamasa: and rcirc too simple
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2014-08-12T12:08:28Z wasamasa: that's why I use circe
2014-08-12T12:08:35Z wasamasa: and sometimes write some code to extend it
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2014-08-12T12:14:40Z AeroNotix: I just use weechat
2014-08-12T12:15:06Z surrounder: I want to give weechat.el a shot soon
2014-08-12T12:15:16Z AeroNotix: I tried it, it works. I guess?
2014-08-12T12:15:22Z surrounder: heh
2014-08-12T12:15:23Z AeroNotix: I didn't find any problems with it
2014-08-12T12:15:28Z surrounder: good to know :)
2014-08-12T12:15:34Z AeroNotix: but I guess I just prefer the colours and ui in weechat
2014-08-12T12:15:45Z surrounder: aye, weechat is nice indeed
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2014-08-12T12:20:34Z TomRS checking out weechat :)
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2014-08-12T13:07:43Z beach: pjb: I manged to squeeze everything into a single diagram: http://metamodular.com/slides.pdf page 6.
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2014-08-12T13:07:53Z beach: pjb: Let me know what you think.
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2014-08-12T13:09:34Z Xach: beach: did you see the thing from the standardization era about a "blue pages" common implementation of common lisp for everyone to build from?
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2014-08-12T13:10:05Z Xach: i blogged about it last year, can't remember if you were visiting #lisp at the time
2014-08-12T13:10:11Z beach: Xach: Doesn't ring a bell.
2014-08-12T13:10:20Z Xach: http://xach.livejournal.com/319717.html
2014-08-12T13:10:25Z beach: Thanks.
2014-08-12T13:12:57Z beach: Nice idea there!
2014-08-12T13:13:03Z pjb: beach: yes, it's better :-)
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2014-08-12T13:13:20Z beach: pjb: Thanks!
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2014-08-12T13:18:17Z wasamasa: beach: wait, what exactly are these slides about and why do they end with "A Lisp Operating System."?
2014-08-12T13:18:54Z splittist: wasamasa: nothing a trip to Montreal won't uncover!
2014-08-12T13:19:04Z beach: wasamasa: The slides are my presentation at ILC of three papers.  All papers are related to the SICL project, so I end with the future of that project.
2014-08-12T13:19:21Z beach: minion: Please tell wasamasa about SICL.
2014-08-12T13:19:21Z minion: wasamasa: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
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2014-08-12T13:19:27Z wasamasa: aha!
2014-08-12T13:19:47Z wasamasa: I still don't see how a reimplemented CL would result in a lisp os
2014-08-12T13:20:15Z beach: It is a necessary but not a sufficient condition.
2014-08-12T13:22:47Z wasamasa: or wait
2014-08-12T13:22:54Z wasamasa: it's yet another CL implementation?
2014-08-12T13:23:10Z beach: Yes.
2014-08-12T13:23:29Z wasamasa: for a second I thought you were to implement your own idea of a better CL :P
2014-08-12T13:23:47Z beach: wasamasa: I am not smart enough for that.
2014-08-12T13:24:09Z wasamasa: beach: imagine what would have happened if more language implementors thought that way
2014-08-12T13:24:30Z beach: Wishful thinking.
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2014-08-12T13:27:24Z acebulf: (hey-guys)
2014-08-12T13:27:57Z beach: Hello acebulf.
2014-08-12T13:27:57Z Aranshada|W: (hey)
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2014-08-12T13:33:25Z beach: openbsd_newbie: Test passed.
2014-08-12T13:33:30Z openbsd_newbie: tnx
2014-08-12T13:34:01Z openbsd_newbie: i don't do lisp, but I read Paul Graham, so, I am here :)
2014-08-12T13:34:18Z beach: openbsd_newbie: OK, welcome.
2014-08-12T13:35:15Z beach: openbsd_newbie: Perhaps you should consider doing some as well.
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2014-08-12T13:37:04Z beach: wasamasa: The key ingredient in a Lisp OS (as I see it) is first-class global environments.  The existing implementations I know of do not have that, so we need a new implementation.
2014-08-12T13:37:48Z beach: wasamasa: As a side effect of getting there, I am hoping to achieve a faster and more maintainable implementation.
2014-08-12T13:38:12Z openbsd_newbie: I am here to learn general programming concepts from masters
2014-08-12T13:38:23Z beach: openbsd_newbie: Sounds like a good start.
2014-08-12T13:38:40Z openbsd_newbie: SO I will just shut up and sit in the corner
2014-08-12T13:38:47Z openbsd_newbie: *So
2014-08-12T13:38:53Z beach: OK, that's fine.
2014-08-12T13:39:17Z openbsd_newbie: sry, mu english is not so good
2014-08-12T13:39:47Z beach: Yes, I see. :)
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2014-08-12T13:40:06Z openbsd_newbie: tnx :)
2014-08-12T13:40:39Z wasamasa: I wonder whether the perception of masters in computer science is a cultural thing
2014-08-12T13:40:40Z beach: openbsd_newbie: It can be a bit slow at times, but that doesn't mean nobody is here.  Just that nobody has anything to say.
2014-08-12T13:41:04Z beach: wasamasa: How so?
2014-08-12T13:41:37Z wasamasa: beach: first time I came along that was in the rather humorous programmer koans
2014-08-12T13:41:48Z wasamasa: beach: then I saw this: https://github.com/redguardtoo/mastering-emacs-in-one-year-guide/blob/master/guide-en.org
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2014-08-12T13:43:12Z wasamasa: beach: a guide that suggests just using the configuration of a rather well known emacs user and addresses him as "Master"
2014-08-12T13:43:27Z beach: Hmm, I see.
2014-08-12T13:43:51Z Aranshada|W: So is that actually a good reference to start learning how to use emacs?
2014-08-12T13:43:59Z wasamasa: nope
2014-08-12T13:44:04Z Aranshada|W: Damn.
2014-08-12T13:44:20Z wasamasa: which doesn't mean other people's setups are bad
2014-08-12T13:44:51Z beach: Aranshada|W: It is never a good plan to copy the configuration file of someone else.
2014-08-12T13:45:05Z wasamasa: Aranshada|W: reading them however can be enlightening
2014-08-12T13:45:14Z beach: Aranshada|W: The configuration file doesn't make things better.  Only different.  Often in undocumented ways.
2014-08-12T13:45:24Z wasamasa: it also makes debugging harder :P
2014-08-12T13:45:48Z wasamasa: I find it funny how the author of the article apparently never visited #emacs which has a different consensus on the topic
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2014-08-12T13:46:28Z wasamasa: which is probably a more relevant place than google+, but I digress
2014-08-12T13:47:16Z AeroNotix: and any one who has ever written an emacs "starter kit" needs to re-evaluate why people are using emacs
2014-08-12T13:47:57Z wasamasa: s/needs to .*?$/needed the github karma/
2014-08-12T13:48:05Z AeroNotix: lol @ github karma
2014-08-12T13:49:15Z wasamasa: most extreme example in terms of effort-popularity I've seen was this: https://github.com/mrmrs/colors
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2014-08-12T13:50:33Z Guthur: wasamasa: on face value that looks like something designers would love
2014-08-12T13:50:47Z wasamasa: Guthur: well, it's not well-designed
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2014-08-12T13:50:59Z Xach: Maybe you could discuss it via private messages.
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2014-08-12T13:55:27Z beach: Krystof: Will you be at ILC?
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2014-08-12T14:00:37Z Krystof: beach: no, sadly.  Clashed with family holiday dates, which were set in stone 11 months ago
2014-08-12T14:01:55Z beach: Krystof: Too bad!
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2014-08-12T14:53:20Z lxmahyar: What does best book for learning lisp ?
2014-08-12T14:54:18Z Xach: lxmahyar: i think practical common lisp is a good book. paradigms of ai programming is a good book too.
2014-08-12T14:54:33Z Xach: lxmahyar: I suspect the best book varies by your own personal experience and style.
2014-08-12T14:54:38Z openbsd_newbie: I know that Paul Graham work's with lisp, and Peter Norvig, go check their recommandations
2014-08-12T14:55:10Z Xach: I started with Paul Graham's book, but later found out his style isn't something I like very much. I wish I'd started with something different. Can't change it now, though!
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2014-08-12T14:55:29Z oGMo: i liked "successful lisp" too but i forget if it was actually good
2014-08-12T14:55:46Z oGMo: but online and free
2014-08-12T14:55:50Z Aranshada|W: I also started with Paul Graham's ANSI Common Lisp and moved to Practical Common Lisp. I'm about halfway through and loving it.
2014-08-12T14:56:21Z Aranshada|W: I'll go back and finish ANSI Common Lisp eventually, though.
2014-08-12T14:56:27Z loke_: I'll repeat what I have said before: PCL needs a new revision
2014-08-12T14:56:39Z openbsd_newbie: I don't do Lisp, just like to read what smart people have to say.
2014-08-12T14:57:16Z lxmahyar: Thanks for your time . :)
2014-08-12T14:57:24Z beach: loke_: Why do you think it does?
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2014-08-12T14:58:03Z beach: lxmahyar: Do you already know how to program, using some other language?
2014-08-12T14:58:36Z lxmahyar: Yeah, various.
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2014-08-12T14:58:41Z loke_: beach: Well, it needs some instructions and companion files to help set up a working development environment. We all know SLIME can be a bit tricky to get into for newbies.
2014-08-12T14:58:50Z loke_: beach: Discussion about Quicklisp would be useful too
2014-08-12T14:59:15Z beach: loke_: Sure, yes.  Quicklisp didn't exist at the time.
2014-08-12T14:59:20Z loke_: exactly
2014-08-12T14:59:33Z Aranshada|W: I haven't been able to find a free online source for ANSI Common Lisp. Does one exist?
2014-08-12T14:59:42Z beach: Aranshada|W: No.
2014-08-12T14:59:56Z oGMo: but clhs is close enough isn't it?
2014-08-12T15:00:19Z beach: oGMo: I think Aranshada|W is talking about the book by Paul Graham.
2014-08-12T15:00:38Z Aranshada|W: I was.
2014-08-12T15:00:41Z oGMo: beach: ah, thought it was referring to the standard heh
2014-08-12T15:00:46Z Aranshada|W: :)
2014-08-12T15:00:46Z loke_: As for myself, I started with CLtL2
2014-08-12T15:00:56Z Xach: loke_: any discussion of quicklisp, slime, or anything else is going to be dated fairly quickly, unfortunately.
2014-08-12T15:01:06Z Aranshada|W: I found online versions of PCL and On Lisp, although I bought physical copies anyway.
2014-08-12T15:01:14Z lxmahyar: I don't have any problem with hardships :)
2014-08-12T15:01:15Z Aranshada|W: I get most of my reading done on planes.
2014-08-12T15:01:20Z Xach: I think that sort of thing is suited to something frequently updated. But it takes a lot of energy, and time, and effort, etc.
2014-08-12T15:01:23Z loke_: Xach: Hmm, I guess so
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2014-08-12T15:01:39Z Bike: PCL is available online because the author made it so, graham hasn't done that with all his books, and that's that
2014-08-12T15:01:39Z loke_: Perhaps the website should at least provide links?
2014-08-12T15:01:43Z beach: Sounds ideal for self publishing.
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2014-08-12T15:02:13Z beach: A new version takes only a few hours to publish.  A lot more to create, of course.
2014-08-12T15:02:32Z Aranshada|W: Bike: I figured as much. I'm fine with buying it. I just also like to keep PDF copies on my computer if I can.
2014-08-12T15:02:42Z Bike: graham might have pdfs for sale, i don't know
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2014-08-12T15:02:56Z Bike: could do like those fancy new books and have it hosted on version control
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2014-08-12T15:05:42Z lxmahyar: Aranshada|W: http://goo.gl/TwqgNF
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2014-08-12T15:06:48Z Bike: if you're going to throw warez around at least do it in private messages
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2014-08-12T15:08:52Z lxmahyar: Bike: Well, sorry about it.
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2014-08-12T15:09:51Z stack`: Successful Lisp by Lamkins is helpful
2014-08-12T15:10:05Z stack`: http://psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/author.html
2014-08-12T15:11:15Z loke_: Same Lamkins who is active on the GNU APL mailing list?
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2014-08-12T15:11:45Z enn: Can anyone recommend one of the libraries at cliki.net/serialization over the others? I have a hash table of structs keyed by integers (but I can use real CLOS objects if it will make serialization easier)
2014-08-12T15:11:47Z Aranshada|W: stack`: Neat. Thanks!
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2014-08-12T15:13:20Z lxmahyar: The New NSA-Funded Code Rolls All Programming Languages Into One
2014-08-12T15:13:22Z lxmahyar: http://goo.gl/Q0obWe
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2014-08-12T15:13:33Z stack`: http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/index.html
2014-08-12T15:14:56Z loke_: lxmahyar: "all"?
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2014-08-12T15:15:39Z lxmahyar: Not all, but some various. :)
2014-08-12T15:15:42Z Xach: enn: I use cl-store by default. It works fine for what I need.
2014-08-12T15:15:53Z enn: Xach: thanks, I will give it a shot
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2014-08-12T15:16:05Z loke_: I've written at least two partial serialisation systems
2014-08-12T15:16:36Z Xach: lxmahyar: please don't share such stuff.
2014-08-12T15:17:17Z lxmahyar: Xach: Ok, ;)
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2014-08-12T15:24:40Z lxmahyar: What does the best compiler for Lisp in Linux  ?
2014-08-12T15:25:02Z beach: Do you mean which one is the best?
2014-08-12T15:25:17Z lxmahyar: Yes.
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2014-08-12T15:26:08Z beach: It depends on your needs.  Speed?  Debuggability?  Right to sell commercially?  Right to distribute for free?
2014-08-12T15:26:57Z lxmahyar: Something to start.
2014-08-12T15:27:07Z H4ns: lxmahyar: most people here use sbcl
2014-08-12T15:27:37Z ARM9: is sbcl's repl weird or are the books I'm reading just old
2014-08-12T15:27:46Z H4ns: lxmahyar: clozure cl is popular, too.  sbcl is more of a community thing, clozure is maintained by a company
2014-08-12T15:28:05Z beach: ARM9: Weird in what way?
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2014-08-12T15:30:28Z Xach: Many old (and some new) books recommend doing things that have undefined behavior. SBCL doesn't follow along with traditional undefined behavior implementation, usually.
2014-08-12T15:30:56Z Xach: So you may see things like (setq x 42) in a tutorial. SBCL will complain about things like that.
2014-08-12T15:31:05Z beach: Oh, right.
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2014-08-12T15:33:15Z Xach: Another area of tradition pain is defconstant. In SBCL it is useful only for a more limited set of kinds of values than is traditional.
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2014-08-12T15:33:41Z Aranshada|W: I've been using clisp for learning. Am I hindering myself?
2014-08-12T15:33:49Z Xach: I don't use defconstant because of it. I don't bother with workarounds like define-constant.
2014-08-12T15:33:59Z beach: Aranshada|W: That should be fine.
2014-08-12T15:34:00Z Xach: Aranshada|W: not for the basics, no.
2014-08-12T15:34:09Z ggole: One man's constant is another man's variable, as the saying goes.
2014-08-12T15:34:27Z Xach: Aranshada|W: I think it's worth learning more systems, though, and it might not hurt to start early.
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2014-08-12T15:39:42Z Aranshada|W: Would I be doing myself a favor if I switched implementations now?
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2014-08-12T15:42:12Z juanlas: sbcl’s repo has alot less C code than I expected, I mean I don’t know a whole lot about compilers but I thought there would be more
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2014-08-12T15:42:40Z juanlas: this one, https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl
2014-08-12T15:43:13Z beach: juanlas: Why did you expect it to have more?
2014-08-12T15:43:41Z Xach: Aranshada|W: I don't think it's a big deal at first.
2014-08-12T15:44:14Z Xach: juanlas: SBCL is written in Common Lisp with some C to interface with the operating system and manage memory. The compiler parts are all Lisp.
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2014-08-12T15:45:42Z juanlas: i see, I guess that’s what i didn’t expect — I guess since sbcl has a “native” compiler I expected more C
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2014-08-12T15:46:00Z antoszka: Aranshada|W: It just might be easier sticking to sbcl as you can expect most community members to use just that and it's the implementation that (gut feeling) most libraries will work with.
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2014-08-12T15:46:17Z beach: juanlas: Common Lisp is the ideal language for writing compilers.  No need to use less well adapted ones.
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2014-08-12T15:47:46Z antoszka: Aranshada|W: Especially if you're running Linux, clozure cl seems to be somewhat more popular in the Mac world.
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2014-08-12T15:48:40Z Aranshada|W: antoszka: I run windows primarily (due to my job) and use linux VMs when I need them, so I've been tinkering in both.
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2014-08-12T15:57:47Z Aranshada|W: I'm noticing that some of the keyboard shortcuts don't want to work on the windows sbcl repl. Things such as ctrl + U get interpreted and printed as ^U rather than erasing the whole line.
2014-08-12T15:58:17Z H4ns: Aranshada|W: that is because sbcl does not do any terminal processing itself
2014-08-12T15:58:35Z AeroNotix: Aranshada|W: check out SLIME or similar
2014-08-12T15:58:41Z H4ns: Aranshada|W: the windows terminal driver has different key bindings than linux's defaults.
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2014-08-12T16:00:11Z stack`: I've been using CCL for a day, and find it a little easier to work with then SBCL.  Startup is super-fast, compilation as well.  Fewer compile-time errors that throw you into the debugger.  Purely subjective and limited opinion of a experience
2014-08-12T16:00:43Z pnpuff: Aranshada|W: as suggested, you should try Emacs and SLIME.
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2014-08-12T16:01:39Z antoszka: Aranshada|W: If you want to work in sbcl's REPL directly install LINEDIT (it's a high-quality readline/emacs-like wrapper written in CL).
2014-08-12T16:01:50Z antoszka: Aranshada|W: Otherwise you'd probably want to use SLIME anyway.
2014-08-12T16:03:16Z Aranshada|W: Yeah. I suppose once I start learning emacs, I won't be using the REPL directly.
2014-08-12T16:03:22Z antoszka: Aranshada|W: If you're politically opposed to Emacs, you can check out vi + slimv, some people seem to be using that, but I've only tried a good few years ago and it wasn't very high quality at the time.
2014-08-12T16:03:44Z antoszka: Aranshada|W: While you do, do yourself a favour and install linedit.
2014-08-12T16:03:50Z Aranshada|W: I'm not politically opposed. I just haven't learned it yet.
2014-08-12T16:03:51Z stanislav: yeah, vim + slimv is ok
2014-08-12T16:04:06Z Aranshada|W: I do come from a vim background, though.
2014-08-12T16:04:15Z pnpuff: Aranshada|W: of course: and if you don't like GUI, try emacs -nw to have a fully working REPL in your terminal with all the functionalities of the Emacs editor
2014-08-12T16:04:28Z stanislav: hopefully slimv works on Windows
2014-08-12T16:05:13Z stanislav: anyway, slimv requires python, too
2014-08-12T16:05:16Z stack`: Aranshada|W: it's worth a few days of pain to learn _really_ basic emacs.  I use Emacs, paredit, and a rainbow parens, with a cheat-sheet of keystrokes that I am building myself as I look up what I need.  It surely hurts for a few days, but is getting easier.
2014-08-12T16:05:43Z antoszka: Aranshada|W: http://wklej.org/id/1438277/ ← here's my linedit .sbclrc snippet
2014-08-12T16:05:53Z antoszka: you can probably find similar samples in the docs, too
2014-08-12T16:06:36Z stack`: The trick to understanding Emacs is that you _don't_ want to take your hands off the keyboard.  Once you see how well that works, you will put up with any amount of pain to get better.
2014-08-12T16:10:47Z Aranshada|W: I'm looking for a way to get similar setups for windows and linux development, so I can easily tinker with things no matter which machine I happen to be on.
2014-08-12T16:11:11Z stack`: Well, Emacs works the same...
2014-08-12T16:11:22Z Aranshada|W: Yeah, I figure.
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2014-08-12T16:11:49Z antoszka: Aranshada|W: you can get the 'lisp-stick' emacs + lisp + slime + quicklisp in a single archive for windows.
2014-08-12T16:12:08Z antoszka: Aranshada|W: works OOTB, works the same as in linux
2014-08-12T16:12:31Z stack`: I also found that switching CapsLock and Ctrl keys really helps my wrist.
2014-08-12T16:12:32Z AeroNotix: Emacs was the only saviour I had when I was forced to use windows
2014-08-12T16:12:37Z antoszka: (there used to be lisp-box previously serving the same purpose with ccl in place of sbcl, but it doesn't seem to be developed anymore)
2014-08-12T16:12:53Z AeroNotix: haha, lisp-box, haven't heard that for years :)
2014-08-12T16:13:05Z Aranshada|W: Wow. That's even more neatly packaged than I hoped for.
2014-08-12T16:13:12Z antoszka: Yeah, definitely, remap your caps to ctrl, like on any sane keyboard (Amiga, Sun, what not).
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2014-08-12T16:14:24Z antoszka: Aranshada|W: http://johnhaller.com/useful-stuff/disable-caps-lock ← here's the windows way of doing that
2014-08-12T16:14:51Z dlowe: and join #emacs so you can get advice on emacs
2014-08-12T16:15:00Z stack`: My XUbuntu box however, unmaps my keys sporadically, forcing me to open a terminal and close it just to re-run .bashrc.  Anyone experience that?
2014-08-12T16:15:47Z dlowe: let us continue to discuss lisp.
2014-08-12T16:15:50Z pnpuff: Aranshada|W: and in Emacs there is also, to say, a Fortran mode. If you use on windows cgwin or mingw you could call almost all the compilers you need without no problem at all.
2014-08-12T16:15:56Z antoszka: dunno, I set my keymap from .xsession
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2014-08-12T16:16:41Z antoszka: dlowe: I reckon getting one kickstarted with a nice lisp environment is within the scope of this channel :)
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2014-08-12T16:17:13Z stack`: dlowe, do you have a better suggestion than having a bunch of newbs figure out how to get better at Lisp?
2014-08-12T16:17:46Z Xach: Figuring out how to get better at Lisp is good. Figuring out XUbuntu key problems is not as good.
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2014-08-12T16:18:08Z stack`: True enough. Will now cork it.
2014-08-12T16:18:39Z dlowe: #clnoobs used to be quite popular too :)
2014-08-12T16:19:08Z Aranshada|W: Thanks for all the pointers. I have plenty of bookmarks to go from now. :)
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2014-08-12T16:21:06Z stack`: Xach, re: earlier serialization discussion.  Is there a reason to do anything other then print/read, other then file size?
2014-08-12T16:21:51Z Xach: stack`: clos objects don't usually print readably.
2014-08-12T16:22:08Z Xach: but if print/read works, it's a good and easy thing to use
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2014-08-12T16:23:28Z stanislav: provided that you read from trusted sources
2014-08-12T16:24:12Z beach: stanislav: You disable #. usually.
2014-08-12T16:25:22Z stanislav: hopefully there are no workarounds :-/
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2014-08-12T16:26:02Z Xach: stanislav: that falls under "works"
2014-08-12T16:26:30Z stanislav: indeed :)
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2014-08-12T16:47:58Z foo1: does anybody know of any apl implementations on top of lisp?
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2014-08-12T16:54:12Z foo1: either hobbyist toys or some forgotten gems from cmu etc. archives. i'm mostly interested in a thin layer along the lines of https://github.com/dlaurie/lua-apl, but i'd be interested in looking at a genuine apl2 attempts too.
2014-08-12T16:54:18Z foo1: and a pony
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2014-08-12T16:55:39Z Xach: i haven't heard of anything like that, but maybe there's an old one in secret somewhere
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2014-08-12T17:57:16Z jasom: haha, for the huge auto-generated file, ECL eventually succeeded.  gcc took many hours and many GB of ram though.
2014-08-12T17:57:36Z didi: Using integers to represent arbitrarily long encoded data is nice, but it's also inconvenient as the order is inverted. In a string, 0 is the first from the left, but in an integer, at least here, 0 is the first from the right. I think I will try bit-vectors.
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2014-08-12T18:00:09Z Xach: didi: you might consider abstracting out the function to do the indexing. then you can use whatever representation you want.
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2014-08-12T18:00:25Z Xach: convert on lookup
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2014-08-12T18:03:24Z didi: Xach: Hum. Good idea. And I will still be able to use my already define functions.
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2014-08-12T18:06:34Z Xach: didi: if you use a vector of octets, you can use truncate to get both indexes at once!
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2014-08-12T18:07:13Z Xach: for example, if you want bit 8321 of your vector, you can get the index of the byte as the first value and the index of the bit with the second value of (truncate 8321 8)
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2014-08-12T18:11:03Z didi: Xach: Oh knows. You gave me yet another representation option. :-P
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2014-08-12T18:11:27Z Xach: so many options
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2014-08-12T18:23:48Z TomRS is testing erc
2014-08-12T18:24:17Z Xach: Worked.
2014-08-12T18:25:35Z TomRS: somehow couldn't get weechat to work in emacs. well... erc worked immediately for me.
2014-08-12T18:26:09Z l3thal: erc is pretty awesome ;)
2014-08-12T18:26:22Z l3thal: (with a little configuration)
2014-08-12T18:26:26Z l3thal: hehe
2014-08-12T18:26:47Z TomRS: how can I address a user? not privately, but in general.
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2014-08-12T18:27:22Z Bike: TomRS: Like this?
2014-08-12T18:27:33Z TomRS: right
2014-08-12T18:27:56Z rpg: Any experts on ABCL out there? Is it possible to implement a Java class in ABCL? Seems like most of the pieces are there, but it also seems like you can't make a constructor....
2014-08-12T18:28:11Z Bike: i haven't used erc in a while but it probably has tab completion, so you just do "Bik Yes I know that already"
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2014-08-12T18:28:38Z TomRS: Bike: cool
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2014-08-12T18:30:08Z l3thal: TomRS: I was talking earlier to a couple of people that were having issues where tab completion stopped working after a while. Seemingly in channels with a large number of users.
2014-08-12T18:30:36Z l3thal: TomRS: what version emacs are you using, and do you use --daemon or ZNC?
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2014-08-12T18:30:41Z TomRS: l3thal: works for me now :)
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2014-08-12T18:31:10Z l3thal: do me a favor? join #freenode and try and tab complete my nick please
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2014-08-12T18:31:31Z TomRS: l3thal: I have Emacs 24.3 now and am running it on macOS
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2014-08-12T18:31:40Z l3thal: kk ;)
2014-08-12T18:31:57Z TomRS: l3thal: will try
2014-08-12T18:32:11Z l3thal: thanks ;)
2014-08-12T18:32:53Z brown`: rpg: I would expect to find an example of creating a Java class somewhere in ABCL's test code, if it's possible.
2014-08-12T18:33:11Z l3thal: i think the issue may have something to do with using ZNC and long running sessions
2014-08-12T18:33:18Z l3thal shrugs
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2014-08-12T18:40:27Z TomRS is testing auto-join on emacs startup and irc logging (sorry to disturb you, it's just so exciting :) )
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2014-08-12T18:42:51Z rpg: One more ABCL question: it uses ant to build, but doesn't obviously have a counterpart to "make install". Is there such?
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2014-08-12T18:47:18Z TomRS test (sorry)
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2014-08-12T18:49:30Z AeroNotix: TomRS: you can make your own channel for that
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2014-08-12T18:50:52Z wasamasa: TomRS: people usually filter away /join, /part and /quit messages
2014-08-12T18:50:56Z wasamasa: TomRS: so that should be fine
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2014-08-12T18:51:16Z wasamasa: TomRS: bot abuse on the other hand better goes to a /query or the bot's channel
2014-08-12T18:52:03Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: I have mine set to filter that, but it still came up. Weird.
2014-08-12T18:52:21Z TomRS: AeroNotix: sorry
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2014-08-12T18:52:27Z Bike: rpg: you mean to install abcl itself? i guess i'd just have my shell alias 'abcl' to 'java -jar /path/to/abcl.jar'
2014-08-12T18:53:03Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: mine is set to display the join of a person that spoke up and displays them for persons who were active in the last time
2014-08-12T18:53:10Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: which is known as "smart filter"
2014-08-12T18:53:23Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: oh that's probably what I go
2014-08-12T18:53:26Z AeroNotix: got
2014-08-12T18:54:02Z wasamasa: which is pretty nice to have to keep an eye on people you chat with :P
2014-08-12T18:54:03Z rpg: Bike: Yes, one can simply link ~/bin/abcl to the abcl shell script, but that's *not* equivalent to what "sudo make install" does -- which would be more like dropping abcl script into /usr/local/bin and putting the jar files into /usr/local/share/java/abcl
2014-08-12T18:54:26Z jasom: rpg: I install via my package manager, which has a way to install .jar files
2014-08-12T18:54:28Z TomRS: i'd like to log the history, that's what I was checking, because I don't want to lose the great helpful tipps I get around here
2014-08-12T18:54:32Z Bike: Yeah, but I have no experience installing java applications, so I don't know what the norm is. Sounds like you do, though
2014-08-12T18:54:34Z jasom: rpg: your distro may have one too
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2014-08-12T18:54:47Z TomRS: but but this didn't do the job (setq erc-log-channels-directory "~/.erc/logs/")
2014-08-12T18:55:20Z rpg: jasom: You can install your personally built jar files using aptitude or something like that? Or do you mean you can install your distro-packaged version of ABCL?
2014-08-12T18:55:41Z jasom: rpg: I can copy what it does, but in /usr/local instead
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2014-08-12T18:56:16Z jasom: rpg: basically put the jar somewhere and add a .sh wrapper to launch it
2014-08-12T18:56:44Z rpg: jasom, Bike: I think I'm going to take the answer as "no: this is left as an exercise for the reader."
2014-08-12T18:57:12Z jasom: rpg: basically
2014-08-12T18:57:24Z l3thal: TomRS: erc-log-enable
2014-08-12T18:57:54Z rpg: The more I deal with it, the less impressed I am with the Java platform. It's like a virtual machine without a virtual operating system.
2014-08-12T18:58:12Z TomRS: l3thal: thanks!
2014-08-12T18:59:32Z l3thal: TomRS: also https://clbin.com/cufdr
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2014-08-12T19:02:09Z drmeister: What are SEQUENCE-INPUT-STREAM and SEQUENCE-OUTPUT-STREAM in ECL?    Are these implementation dependent streams?
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2014-08-12T19:03:42Z phadthai: drmeister: yes
2014-08-12T19:04:11Z TomRS: l3thal: awesome! works finally! thanks!
2014-08-12T19:04:12Z phadthai: drmeister: they can be useful for tasks like encoding conversions
2014-08-12T19:04:18Z wasamasa: rpg: like any other vm used for a programming language/
2014-08-12T19:04:20Z wasamasa: ?
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2014-08-12T19:05:51Z rpg: wasamasa: Yeah, but yuck: no command-line parser, no install capabilities, no ability to distinguish different java processes by name in ps... Really a bad citizen in the OS.
2014-08-12T19:06:11Z rpg: wasamasa: really simple things are just far too difficult.
2014-08-12T19:06:14Z AeroNotix: Does anyone have any stories about using ECL?
2014-08-12T19:06:33Z wasamasa: rpg: thought that's more the tooling :P
2014-08-12T19:06:48Z oGMo: AeroNotix: i tried ECL once, and it didn't work, so i moved on
2014-08-12T19:06:50Z phadthai: AeroNotix: I'm not sure if it's worth a story, but http://mmondor.pulsar-zone.net/test
2014-08-12T19:06:54Z rpg: wasamasa: no tooling == bad tool
2014-08-12T19:07:00Z AeroNotix: oGMo: what did you use instead?
2014-08-12T19:07:14Z wasamasa: rpg: otherwise the clojure guys wouldn't swarm all over leiningen
2014-08-12T19:07:20Z rpg: wasamasa: things like the CLI issue are because the VM doesn't sit well into the source platform.
2014-08-12T19:07:22Z oGMo: AeroNotix: sbcl, ccl... i got clisp working, and abcl failed for other reasons, but
2014-08-12T19:07:40Z drmeister: phadthai: Thank you
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2014-08-12T19:07:52Z AeroNotix: rpg: you must love Erlang then
2014-08-12T19:07:52Z rpg: wasamasa: My experience with ABCL (which is making my Java hacking much better than it might otherwise be, BTW), is convincing me that Clojure is not going to make me happy.
2014-08-12T19:08:33Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: heh, the things my coworker says about it
2014-08-12T19:08:44Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: what's that?
2014-08-12T19:08:54Z AeroNotix: I'm primarily an Erlang developer.
2014-08-12T19:08:59Z oGMo: abcl seemed like it could be good but i was having issues with cffi's groveling.. these days that would not be an issue heh
2014-08-12T19:08:59Z AeroNotix: it's... awful
2014-08-12T19:09:03Z AeroNotix: It's a ghetto
2014-08-12T19:09:19Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: "It claims it can swap out code dynamically, but the REPL to accomplish that is so bad, I can't believe it!"
2014-08-12T19:09:53Z Shinmera: cue earlang the movie 2
2014-08-12T19:10:23Z Shinmera: *erlang
2014-08-12T19:10:28Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: I was saying that in here like 2 days ago
2014-08-12T19:10:46Z rpg: Allowing its prototype implementation in Prolog to dictate its syntax is not a winning decision, IMO.
2014-08-12T19:10:52Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: I'm not sure whether I joined the channel by that time
2014-08-12T19:10:58Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: you're supposed to use "relups" to accomplish hot code loading, but they're so complex it's ridiculous
2014-08-12T19:11:15Z AeroNotix: rpg: the syntax is mostly ok
2014-08-12T19:11:18Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: what exactly makes hot code loading different from re-evaluation like in CL and such?
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2014-08-12T19:11:38Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: the fact that despite Erlang saying it's a functional programming language, it's actually highly stateful
2014-08-12T19:11:59Z AeroNotix: you have what's called "supervision trees" which are trees of processes which monitor and link to each other to make a fault tolerant network of agents
2014-08-12T19:12:08Z AeroNotix: but this implies dependencies
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2014-08-12T19:12:26Z l3thal: TomRS: hehe good!
2014-08-12T19:12:34Z AeroNotix: so to hot reload code, it's better to load the code in the reverse dependency order
2014-08-12T19:12:39Z jasom: AeroNotix: ecl generates smaller binaries than other lisps; that's about the only upside I've found with it so far.
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2014-08-12T19:13:07Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: there're also things like.. the main type abstraction mechanism is just a compiler hack over tagged tuples, so that makes it difficult to do runtime changes to them in some situations
2014-08-12T19:13:11Z TomRS: l3thal: even better... now when someone mentions my name, it plays a sound, so I notice it even when not looking in the chat
2014-08-12T19:13:17Z AeroNotix: also, there's no modules. One big flat namespace.
2014-08-12T19:13:31Z jasom: AeroNotix: sbcl and ccl generate better lisp code and also most libraries are well tested on them.
2014-08-12T19:13:33Z AeroNotix: The modules they have are such a joke it's not even funny
2014-08-12T19:13:41Z TomRS is liking emacs and lisp more and more every day :)
2014-08-12T19:13:56Z AeroNotix: jasom: gotcha. We're just evaluating embedding lua onto low power devices, was thinking I could suggest ECL
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2014-08-12T19:14:34Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: all in all, Erlang has an *amazing* VM. I struggle to find VMs which are implemented as well and have such cool features. The language that scripts this VM is awful though
2014-08-12T19:14:44Z AeroNotix: and the tooling around it is almost an insult to the people who use it
2014-08-12T19:14:47Z l3thal: TomRS: emacs lisp and common lisp have a lot of similarities but are very different
2014-08-12T19:14:57Z l3thal: just thought I'd through that out there ;)
2014-08-12T19:15:06Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: time for ErlCL then
2014-08-12T19:15:26Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: there's LFE (Lisp Flavoured Erlang) but I've only just managed to convince the author to add gensym
2014-08-12T19:15:33Z wasamasa: wat
2014-08-12T19:15:40Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: Yes. Yes indeed.
2014-08-12T19:15:45Z wasamasa: yes, I've seen two lispier dialects of erlang
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2014-08-12T19:15:54Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: Joxa, LFE and ?
2014-08-12T19:15:56Z wasamasa: and this elixir thing which looks like the bad parts of ruby
2014-08-12T19:16:13Z AeroNotix: Meh, Elixir is kinda meh as a language. But it seems the ruby people care about their tools
2014-08-12T19:16:26Z AeroNotix: Mix and Hex are somewhat not-shit for dependency management tools
2014-08-12T19:16:37Z AeroNotix: whilst rebar is of the "paste-eating" kind
2014-08-12T19:17:19Z wasamasa: I find it pretty amusing that a bunch of elisp guys decided to reimplement bundler for elisp development
2014-08-12T19:17:27Z wasamasa: as long as I don't have to use it
2014-08-12T19:17:42Z AeroNotix: I've never personally had any problems with package.ek
2014-08-12T19:17:43Z AeroNotix: el*
2014-08-12T19:18:10Z wasamasa: their recent changelog featured the ability to not have it spew out unnecessary messages
2014-08-12T19:18:16Z wasamasa: I mean, seriously?
2014-08-12T19:18:31Z wasamasa: just build the packages and install them, then be done
2014-08-12T19:18:37Z wasamasa: why use an external tool for that
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2014-08-12T19:19:25Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: NIH, mostly.
2014-08-12T19:19:36Z wasamasa: seems so
2014-08-12T19:19:38Z AeroNotix: Hard problems are hard and why innovate when you can just reimplement
2014-08-12T19:19:46Z wasamasa: anyways, I'm glad asdf and quicklisp look a lot more inviting
2014-08-12T19:20:02Z AeroNotix: quicklisp isn't perfect, but it's perfect for Common Lisp. If you get me?
2014-08-12T19:20:14Z AeroNotix: It fits well with the community and the development style of Lisp libraries
2014-08-12T19:20:21Z wasamasa: can't await until I do an elisp+cl combination for emacs packages that need moar computing power
2014-08-12T19:20:34Z AeroNotix: I'd love it if CL was the default on Emacs
2014-08-12T19:20:45Z AeroNotix: ELisp is so annoying it hurts sometimes.
2014-08-12T19:21:22Z btbngr: there's always hemlock :P
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2014-08-12T19:21:43Z dlowe: or climacs.
2014-08-12T19:22:05Z jasom: There's also a common-lisp implementation in elisp IIRC
2014-08-12T19:22:24Z AeroNotix: jasom: it doesn't even have FORMAT last I checked.
2014-08-12T19:22:32Z wasamasa: there's another one outside emacs
2014-08-12T19:22:47Z btbngr: there's clisp.el, at least. though that's a little annoying. granted things might start improving now they finally added closures to 24.x
2014-08-12T19:25:09Z dlowe: climacs is even in quicklisp
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2014-08-12T19:25:41Z AeroNotix: I'll check it out
2014-08-12T19:25:57Z dlowe: it's... barely usable.
2014-08-12T19:27:16Z dlowe: and apparently abandoned
2014-08-12T19:27:20Z AeroNotix: dlowe: you build me up and break me down
2014-08-12T19:28:00Z dlowe: well, what will you give up from emacs to have a CL base
2014-08-12T19:28:23Z AeroNotix: dlowe: the shit implementation of lisp
2014-08-12T19:28:30Z AeroNotix: :)
2014-08-12T19:28:32Z dlowe: the answer to that, I think, is why we don't have a really nice CL editor
2014-08-12T19:28:39Z dlowe: mmhm.
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2014-08-12T19:29:36Z viaken: There was some guy that was going to try porting emacs to CL. It was apparently his thesis project.
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2014-08-12T19:30:44Z rpg_: viaken: the problem with doing that sort of thing is that it doesn't provide any value to users -- certainly nothing that would compensate for shifting to a new, half-finished emacs.
2014-08-12T19:30:53Z AeroNotix: viaken: that sounds like the ultimate yak shaving
2014-08-12T19:30:53Z viaken nods
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2014-08-12T19:34:51Z dlowe: The idea was that CL is so awesome that using it instead of C would make a better emacs long-term
2014-08-12T19:35:11Z kristof: Talking about hemlock?
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2014-08-12T19:36:39Z dlowe: No, that whippersnapper who wanted to rewrite the C bits of emacs into CL a couple of years ago
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2014-08-12T19:37:23Z kristof: That was a good idea, right. :P
2014-08-12T19:39:10Z dlowe: this guy: http://tromey.com/blog/?p=709
2014-08-12T19:39:44Z kristof: Right, I read those posts
2014-08-12T19:39:55Z kristof: They were highly informative
2014-08-12T19:39:56Z dlowe: straight code translation of a large project is a misery
2014-08-12T19:40:12Z kristof: dlowe: I was mostly interested in a multithreaded emacs
2014-08-12T19:40:27Z AeroNotix: kristof: but are you though?
2014-08-12T19:40:35Z AeroNotix: What would you do with a threaded emacs?
2014-08-12T19:40:45Z jasom: AeroNotix: crash more often
2014-08-12T19:40:49Z AeroNotix: jasom: :)
2014-08-12T19:41:23Z viaken: Thanks, dlowe. My Google-fu was weak today; I couldn't find him/the project.
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2014-08-12T19:41:48Z jasom: dlowe: https://github.com/jasom/pdfparse <-- that was a straight python-to-lisp translation
2014-08-12T19:42:08Z jasom: I needed to deliver something usable as a binary and couldn't for the life of me figure out how to do that with python as an external dependency
2014-08-12T19:42:08Z kristof: AeroNotix: it would start up faster. The point of something shouldn't be because it's useful, but... because it can be done! :)
2014-08-12T19:42:23Z AeroNotix: kristof: use emacs --daemon
2014-08-12T19:42:28Z AeroNotix: then emacsclient
2014-08-12T19:42:33Z kristof: Oh, that's useful
2014-08-12T19:42:45Z kristof: AeroNotix: thanks :)
2014-08-12T19:42:49Z AeroNotix: my emacs is even a systemd service
2014-08-12T19:42:56Z AeroNotix: kristof: nw
2014-08-12T19:42:57Z kristof: A user session service?
2014-08-12T19:43:02Z AeroNotix: kristof: yupp
2014-08-12T19:43:07Z kristof: Neat-o
2014-08-12T19:43:22Z AeroNotix: It's very cool for when I fubar some elisp and it locks up
2014-08-12T19:43:24Z AeroNotix: :)
2014-08-12T19:43:30Z AeroNotix: it'll die and restart automatically :)
2014-08-12T19:43:34Z viaken: That's fun
2014-08-12T19:43:37Z kristof: jasom: pypy does binaries, doesn't it?
2014-08-12T19:43:45Z viaken: Care to share your unit file, AeroNotix? :)
2014-08-12T19:43:54Z kristof: But it's only python2 right now
2014-08-12T19:43:57Z jasom: kristof: I don't know, I'm a lisp hacker
2014-08-12T19:44:08Z kristof: jasom: hack in all the things
2014-08-12T19:44:13Z btbngr: kristof: iirc pypy supports 3.x too
2014-08-12T19:44:17Z AeroNotix: viaken: sec
2014-08-12T19:44:29Z kristof: btbngr: they didn't completely support it 5 months ago
2014-08-12T19:44:39Z btbngr: ymmv :)
2014-08-12T19:44:41Z AeroNotix: viaken: kristof https://github.com/AeroNotix/dotfiles/blob/master/.config/systemd/user/emacs.service
2014-08-12T19:45:12Z kristof: Psssh, that's an easy enough unit file to figure out
2014-08-12T19:45:16Z AeroNotix: yeah
2014-08-12T19:45:27Z AeroNotix: I do like the format of systemd scripts
2014-08-12T19:45:37Z AeroNotix: we're moving to centos at work, looking forward to it
2014-08-12T19:45:49Z jasom: kristof: I suppose I hack in C, sh and awk fairly regularly too
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2014-08-12T19:46:54Z kristof: jasom: in the spirit of genera, I sometimes ask myself why we need awk so often
2014-08-12T19:47:50Z kristof: AeroNotix: 6 or 7? I'm actually studying for some red hat certs at the moment!
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2014-08-12T19:48:21Z AeroNotix: kristof: I'm not on the operations team. Are you an ops guy? Where are you based
2014-08-12T19:48:25Z AeroNotix: kristof: pm?
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2014-08-12T19:48:45Z kristof: AeroNotix: I'm a college student aspiring to become a sysadmin, that's all
2014-08-12T19:48:54Z AeroNotix: kristof: where are you based?
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2014-08-12T19:49:51Z AeroNotix: just asking 'cause we're looking for more operations people for our team
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2014-08-12T19:51:39Z kristof: San Francisco.
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2014-08-12T20:06:19Z viaken: AeroNotix: Thanks! I like your "you probably don't want to use this" disclaimer. :P
2014-08-12T20:06:58Z AeroNotix: viaken: it's all very specific to me, my set up and my idiosyncrasies but maybe you'll find something in there fo you
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2014-08-12T20:08:04Z viaken: I have one much the same: https://bitbucket.org/dpflug/dotfiles - The one on github is a few commits behind.
2014-08-12T20:08:31Z viaken: kristof: I should probably go get some certs, myself.
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2014-08-12T20:28:51Z stack`: certs, yuck.
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2014-08-12T20:42:38Z viaken: certs?
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2014-08-12T21:58:27Z AeroNotix: Is there anything like cljr-refactor for CL?
2014-08-12T21:58:37Z AeroNotix: common parens type movements
2014-08-12T21:59:46Z |3b|: paredit or redshank-mode ? (both for emacs rather than CL specifically, )
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2014-08-12T22:03:27Z AeroNotix: |3b|: hmm, itparedit
2014-08-12T22:03:29Z AeroNotix: derp
2014-08-12T22:03:43Z AeroNotix: more features than paredit and a few more specific actions
2014-08-12T22:04:21Z |3b|: redshank does some refactoring stuff, dunno specifically though
2014-08-12T22:06:55Z pnpuff: Is there some coverage tool that given a source code gives me how part of that code uses the greatest amount of computing time?
2014-08-12T22:07:13Z pnpuff: possibly implemeted in CL, of course
2014-08-12T22:07:45Z resttime: a profiler?
2014-08-12T22:08:14Z pnpuff: yes, more or less... I'm searching something similar to gcov or gprof
2014-08-12T22:09:26Z |3b|: sbcl has 2 profilers built-in
2014-08-12T22:09:46Z |3b|: also code coverage i think, haven't used that though
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2014-08-12T22:10:13Z |3b| usually uses sb-sprof for profiling in sbcl, through the slime-sprof contrib
2014-08-12T22:10:32Z jasom: pnpuff: sbcl has both a statistical and a precise profiler
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2014-08-12T22:11:35Z jasom: Of course the precise profiler has a big impact on performance of function calls, so you are disturbing what you measure more than with the statistical profiler; it may be better for getting coverage data though
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2014-08-12T22:13:12Z TomRS: I have a thinker: is it possible to write a macro/function that takes as input '((1 2) (3 4 5)) and returns '(1 2) '(3 4 5)  ?
2014-08-12T22:13:17Z AeroNotix: What is #lisp's favourite testing package?
2014-08-12T22:13:26Z TomRS: I need to remove the outer brackets
2014-08-12T22:13:34Z AeroNotix: TomRS: can't be done
2014-08-12T22:13:44Z AeroNotix: you can have a macro expand it into that though
2014-08-12T22:14:03Z wasamasa: multiple return values?
2014-08-12T22:14:14Z AeroNotix: ah I guess, if you read the question like that
2014-08-12T22:14:33Z wasamasa: well no, I assume it would need that to be able to solve his question
2014-08-12T22:14:53Z didi: What is the difference between `arithmetic-downto' and `arithmetic-downfrom' in LOOP?
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2014-08-12T22:15:35Z TomRS: AeroNotix: I like the stefil test package :)
2014-08-12T22:17:05Z TomRS: wasamasa: I have a function that expects as input: &rest lists, but the function that gets these inputs returns a list of lists instead..
2014-08-12T22:17:37Z wasamasa: TomRS: well, that's because you return one value by default and the simplest way of doing is that is putting your stuff into a list
2014-08-12T22:17:57Z TomRS: wasamasa: how can I return multiple values?
2014-08-12T22:18:18Z wasamasa: hmm, not sure, though CL should have that feature
2014-08-12T22:18:40Z TomRS: wasamasa: ok, will check.. thanks for the pointer
2014-08-12T22:18:42Z stanislav: TomRS: you can APPLY your second function
2014-08-12T22:18:42Z wasamasa: I'd personally just use destructuring-bind on it :P
2014-08-12T22:18:52Z wasamasa: if you need parts of these values
2014-08-12T22:19:13Z wasamasa: depends on what exactly you want to achieve
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2014-08-12T22:19:49Z TomRS: stanislav: APPLY is also an idea, not sure if it works, if the second function is recuresive on the inputs
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2014-08-12T22:23:38Z wasamasa: damn asians, I'm reading r/lisp and found lisp-tan
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2014-08-12T22:25:02Z AeroNotix: TomRS: if you want multiple values, (values thing1 thing2)
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2014-08-12T22:25:39Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: how would you process those?
2014-08-12T22:27:15Z TomRS: AeroNotix: thanks! I also found this nice wiki: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Return_multiple_values#Common_Lisp
2014-08-12T22:27:32Z TomRS: will test it
2014-08-12T22:27:35Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: there're a couple of ways
2014-08-12T22:27:43Z AeroNotix: that link ^ should cover them
2014-08-12T22:27:55Z AeroNotix: multiple-value-bind, multiple-value-list etc
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2014-08-12T22:28:16Z wasamasa: I figured that if there's no straight-forward way, it would be a rather useless feature
2014-08-12T22:28:36Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: it's pretty straight forward, I dislike it personally, but it's relatively straight forward
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2014-08-12T22:30:58Z wasamasa: so an even longer function name than destructuring-bind :P
2014-08-12T22:31:07Z wasamasa: I guess I'll refrain from using it then
2014-08-12T22:31:32Z stanislav: multiple-value-call is also fine
2014-08-12T22:31:55Z stanislav: and autocompletion :D
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2014-08-12T22:33:21Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: yeah, I wrote something the other day for destructuring-regexp-bind :D
2014-08-12T22:33:41Z wasamasa: oh dear
2014-08-12T22:34:58Z AeroNotix: long function names are fine
2014-08-12T22:36:57Z wasamasa: not in elisp
2014-08-12T22:40:43Z AeroNotix: meh
2014-08-12T22:42:16Z TomRS: I tried now with (recursive-function-that-expects-&rest-lists (values-list (my-list-of-lists)))
2014-08-12T22:42:18Z TomRS: :D
2014-08-12T22:42:28Z TomRS: that didn#t work as expected :)
2014-08-12T22:42:54Z TomRS: no more compile error though :)
2014-08-12T22:43:20Z TomRS: I'll try to get my head around destructuring bind tomorrow.. maybe that's the way to go.
2014-08-12T22:43:30Z TomRS: thanks @all!
2014-08-12T22:47:08Z |3b|: you need multiple-value-call to pass multiple values directly to a function, in this case just using apply would make more sense
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2014-08-12T23:50:12Z BillyZane: hi
2014-08-12T23:50:15Z BillyZane: is anyone around?
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2014-08-12T23:51:51Z |3b| is not
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2014-08-12T23:52:32Z pjb: BillyZane: type /who and see for yourself.
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2014-08-12T23:53:09Z BillyZane: hi pjb
2014-08-12T23:53:11Z BillyZane: i had a question
2014-08-12T23:53:23Z BillyZane: suppose i have a tree
2014-08-12T23:53:29Z BillyZane: and i want to recursively go through the tree
2014-08-12T23:53:37Z BillyZane: how would i know if i'm in a subtree?
2014-08-12T23:53:42Z BillyZane: or i should say...
2014-08-12T23:53:55Z BillyZane: suppose i have a list... (1 (2 3 4) 5)
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2014-08-12T23:54:30Z BillyZane: and suppose i had a function that recursively called itself, on the second member, (2 3 4)
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2014-08-12T23:55:00Z BillyZane: how can i tell if there's a parent node?
2014-08-12T23:55:12Z kristof: By the definition of a linked list, you can't possibly know who's pointing to you
2014-08-12T23:55:55Z BillyZane: hmm
2014-08-12T23:55:56Z kristof: BillyZane: You'll simply have to redesign your algorithm. What are you going to do once you know you're in a subtree, anyway?
2014-08-12T23:56:20Z BillyZane: well, the other day, i was working on the "remove" function
2014-08-12T23:56:30Z BillyZane: it takes in 2 arguments, and atom and a list
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2014-08-12T23:56:48Z BillyZane: and it returns a new list, one that has every instance of the atom removed from the list
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2014-08-12T23:56:52Z BillyZane: what i want to do is make a deep version of that
2014-08-12T23:57:01Z kristof: Then you want a recursive function.
2014-08-12T23:57:23Z BillyZane: yes
2014-08-12T23:57:36Z BillyZane: the problem i'm having specifically is what to do in the nil case
2014-08-12T23:57:49Z BillyZane: suppose i tried to use the list (1 (2 3 4) 5)
2014-08-12T23:57:59Z kristof: You're checking for a list case, right? You should do a second null check.
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2014-08-13T00:01:24Z BillyZane: a second null check?
2014-08-13T00:01:31Z BillyZane: oh i see
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2014-08-13T00:01:47Z BillyZane: so i should see if there's a null after wards, like by using cddr
2014-08-13T00:02:13Z kristof: No, by literally using the function NULL, which will return T if it's NIL
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2014-08-13T00:02:46Z BillyZane: i see
2014-08-13T00:02:54Z kristof: But perhaps that wasn't the answer you were looking for. What do you mean you don't know what to do in the nil case?
2014-08-13T00:03:14Z BillyZane: well
2014-08-13T00:03:23Z kristof: You just cons it on the end. (cons atom NIL) -> (atom)
2014-08-13T00:03:27Z BillyZane: this is my "non deep" version
2014-08-13T00:03:28Z BillyZane: http://ideone.com/v7WwQX
2014-08-13T00:03:58Z BillyZane: and this is my deep version (not complete)
2014-08-13T00:04:19Z BillyZane: http://ideone.com/UkQio4
2014-08-13T00:04:47Z BillyZane: so i added a case ((not (atom (car L))) (goo A (car L)) )
2014-08-13T00:05:34Z BillyZane: however, my original null case, ((null L) nil)
2014-08-13T00:05:51Z BillyZane: it stops the recursion once it finds the nil at the end of the inner list
2014-08-13T00:06:51Z BillyZane: another problem i'm having is, when i create the new linked list, with the removed elements, it does not replicate the structure of the original tree
2014-08-13T00:07:00Z BillyZane: it just makes 1 giant list
2014-08-13T00:07:21Z kristof: Question: do you really not want to use built in remove functions?
2014-08-13T00:07:36Z BillyZane: i don't mind using it
2014-08-13T00:07:42Z BillyZane: but right now, i want to do this as a learning exercise
2014-08-13T00:07:53Z prim left #lisp
2014-08-13T00:09:32Z BillyZane: i was thinking i could create a variable that keeps track of how deeply nested the current list is
2014-08-13T00:10:04Z BillyZane: to do this, i'd probably need a helper function
2014-08-13T00:11:09Z kristof: Wrong! Recursive functions should never know how "deep" they are in the recursion because 1) it's never being called at a high enough level to know what to do with that information and 2) your recursive case should semantically operate the same way regardless of who called it.
2014-08-13T00:11:30Z BillyZane: ok
2014-08-13T00:11:46Z BillyZane: well then i guess i can scratch that idea
2014-08-13T00:11:49Z Bike: you know, there's no point in nesting conds like this, you can have more than two cases in one cond.
2014-08-13T00:12:07Z BillyZane: are you sure
2014-08-13T00:12:21Z BillyZane: i thought they are limited to 2 conditions
2014-08-13T00:12:31Z Bike: You may be thinking of if.
2014-08-13T00:12:49Z Bike: clhs cond
2014-08-13T00:12:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_cond.htm
2014-08-13T00:12:51Z Bike: behold!
2014-08-13T00:13:54Z BillyZane: i see
2014-08-13T00:14:16Z kristof notices Bike forgot to drumroll.
2014-08-13T00:15:23Z BillyZane: lol
2014-08-13T00:15:28Z BillyZane: i've been reading this ...
2014-08-13T00:15:52Z BillyZane: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_mono/elisp.html
2014-08-13T00:16:04Z stack`: Q: When would one use psetf?
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2014-08-13T00:17:19Z Bike: (let ((fib1 1) (fib2 2)) (loop (print (psetf fib1 fib2 fib2 (+ fib1 fib2)))))
2014-08-13T00:18:06Z Bike: well, except with it working.
2014-08-13T00:19:09Z stack`: You mean, it's not supposed to print a bunch of NILs and lock up SBCL?
2014-08-13T00:19:29Z kristof: No, that's correct
2014-08-13T00:19:42Z Bike: I forgot that psetf returns nil.
2014-08-13T00:20:04Z Bike: You can put in (psetf fib1 fib2 fib2 (print (+ fib1 fib2))), but you gotta stop it. It's just a dumb way to get fibonacci numbers.
2014-08-13T00:20:38Z Bike: and a simple example of where you might want to change multiple variables at the same time.
2014-08-13T00:20:54Z stack`: Q: How do I get back to REPL form the fine PSETF example (SBCL)?  C-c C-c is not helping...
2014-08-13T00:20:59Z kristof: stack`: ^ that last bit is the important part. think of the difference between ++var and var++ in C.
2014-08-13T00:21:03Z Bike: pray
2014-08-13T00:21:08Z kristof: lol
2014-08-13T00:21:13Z Bike: M-x slime-restart-inferior-lisp, probably
2014-08-13T00:21:21Z Bike: maybe i should have picked a less nutty example
2014-08-13T00:21:28Z kristof: sbcl on the command line accepts a signal, does slime do that too?
2014-08-13T00:21:40Z Bike: (loop repeat 10 do (psetf ...))
2014-08-13T00:21:52Z Bike: sorry about that
2014-08-13T00:22:11Z stack`: OK, got the prompt.  No prob.  Now for psetf, it's like setf, returns nil, what else?
2014-08-13T00:22:25Z Bike: well, the point is that it works in parallel.
2014-08-13T00:22:35Z Bike: not really parallel, but it changes all the variables in the same scope.
2014-08-13T00:22:54Z kristof: It changes everything *after* it's accessed all the values, is what I'd rather say
2014-08-13T00:22:57Z Bike: In contrast, (setf fib1 fib2 fib2 (+ fib1 fib2)) is equivalent to (setf fib1 fib2) (setf fib2 (+ fib1 fib2)) which will get you different results.
2014-08-13T00:22:57Z stack`: When is that important?  It seems like there is no way to tell which assignment happens when.  How is that beneficial?
2014-08-13T00:23:11Z stack`: Oh, all the reads are done first?
2014-08-13T00:23:14Z Bike: well, try my example with setf. you'll get powers of two instead.
2014-08-13T00:23:18Z Bike: essentially.
2014-08-13T00:23:50Z Bike: the evaluations are still left to right... it's kind of a bad name, I think, but oh well
2014-08-13T00:23:52Z kristof: stack`: all the reads are done first, right.
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2014-08-13T00:24:05Z stack`: Bike, what do you mean by 'in the same scope'?
2014-08-13T00:24:21Z Bike: just a clumsy restatement of what was already said
2014-08-13T00:24:24Z kristof: stack`: You can "change" a place in one place-setting form and it won't affect what that place meant in a later form
2014-08-13T00:24:48Z kristof: stack`: By "scope" he means that in setf, the later values are going to mean something different. In essence, their scope was changed by the previous place-setting form.
2014-08-13T00:25:11Z stack`: Verilog has a similar construct of 'synchronous assignment' I believe...
2014-08-13T00:25:16Z kristof: Now that I'm thinking about it, there are lots of times I would have loved psetf in C. Same with rotatef.
2014-08-13T00:26:30Z stack`: So is it correct to say that you can safely refer to the values of the variables you are setting, as the actual writing happens later?
2014-08-13T00:26:53Z Bike: depends on what you mean by safely, i guess.
2014-08-13T00:27:03Z Bike: sometimes you just want to set variables one at a time like a C program and that's okay too.
2014-08-13T00:28:07Z stack`: (let ((a 1) (b 2))  (psetf (a 100) (b a)) will set b to 1?
2014-08-13T00:28:15Z kristof: Try it.
2014-08-13T00:28:23Z stack`: Missing a paren.
2014-08-13T00:28:23Z kristof: Spoiler: yes.
2014-08-13T00:28:40Z stack`: Thanks, saved me like a bunch of carpal tunnel.
2014-08-13T00:28:44Z Bike: maybe they don't want to, after my betrayal
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2014-08-13T00:29:28Z Bike: also try using macroexpand-1 to see the differences
2014-08-13T00:29:52Z drmeister: What is an ANSI-STREAM?   In ECL every stream class inherits from ANSI-STREAM - there doesn't seem to be a point to it.
2014-08-13T00:29:56Z kristof: stack`: I think the syntax of psetf takes alternating place-value forms, not place value lists
2014-08-13T00:30:18Z stack`: Oh yea.
2014-08-13T00:30:21Z Bike: drmeister: a stream as described in the clhs. most implementations also have a "gray stream" extension that allows CLOS streams
2014-08-13T00:30:30Z stack`: What I wrote makes no sense.
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2014-08-13T00:30:38Z kristof: SBCL doesn't have an ANSI-STREAM
2014-08-13T00:30:45Z drmeister: Bike: So are gray streams not ansi-streams?
2014-08-13T00:30:51Z kristof: drmeister: Can you subclass it... and will stream functions work with it?
2014-08-13T00:31:01Z Bike: drmeister: yes, they're an extension to the standard
2014-08-13T00:31:21Z Bike: important libraries like flexi-streams use them
2014-08-13T00:31:33Z Bike: drmeister: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/CL/Issues/stream-definition-by-user.html
2014-08-13T00:31:42Z drmeister: Yes, I'm familiar with gray streams - I implemented them.
2014-08-13T00:32:00Z Bike: oh, sorry.
2014-08-13T00:32:12Z Bike: well, yeah, they're non-ANSI, as you can see from the giant red FAILED on that page.
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2014-08-13T00:33:19Z drmeister: I see now.
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2014-08-13T00:34:51Z kristof: Cost to implementors: small for existing, none for new. Cost to users: none. Performance impact: Not much at all. And it still failed.
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2014-08-13T00:36:27Z Bike: "not proposed for inclusion at this time"
2014-08-13T00:36:46Z kristof: Tabled indefinitely
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2014-08-13T01:01:09Z drmeister: In order to eliminate multiple inheritance from my C++ hierarchy in order to make my implementation much more "copying GC friendly"  I removed the C++ List and Sequence classes from the C++ hierarchy and all LIST and SEQUENCE functions implemented in C++ test their arguments and dispatch explicitly.
2014-08-13T01:01:34Z drmeister: This is the normal way ECL works while I use a lot of C++ virtual functions.
2014-08-13T01:01:53Z kristof: Did it work?
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2014-08-13T01:02:09Z kristof: In fixing your GC performance.
2014-08-13T01:02:21Z drmeister: Not yet.  - working -
2014-08-13T01:02:40Z drmeister: I had one other multiple inheritance problem in my FILE hierarchy.
2014-08-13T01:03:16Z drmeister: C++ inheritance and classes don't map well onto the Common Lisp FILE classes.
2014-08-13T01:03:36Z drmeister: Or at least I couldn't get anything I was really happy with.
2014-08-13T01:03:56Z drmeister: So I just ripped the whole mess out and I'm translating 6000 lines of ECL C source code to C++
2014-08-13T01:04:19Z kristof: You mean the streams classes, right?
2014-08-13T01:04:25Z drmeister: Yeah - sorry.
2014-08-13T01:04:28Z drmeister: Streams
2014-08-13T01:04:48Z drmeister: Streams, files - all that.
2014-08-13T01:04:49Z kristof: Haha! I was confused -- "What could you possibly subclass a file as?"
2014-08-13T01:05:28Z kristof: drmeister: Oh, what did the pr people tell you?
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2014-08-13T01:05:41Z drmeister: In my head I know what I'm talking about - what comes out of my fingers - it's anybodies guess.
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2014-08-13T01:06:15Z drmeister: I have to go visit them this week and see what's going on.  It's radio silence since Friday.
2014-08-13T01:06:35Z drmeister: I'm leaning now towards the LGPL anyway - so I have some explaining to do to them.
2014-08-13T01:06:42Z drmeister: Here's a question.
2014-08-13T01:07:55Z drmeister: If I take the ECL file.d source file and I go through it line by line and change it to C++, changing ECL function names to my function names, changing all sorts of things but keeping the overall structure and file.d is covered by the LGPL - the thing I end up with is also LGPL - right?
2014-08-13T01:09:03Z drmeister: It's a question to all the lawyers in the group.
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2014-08-13T01:10:39Z drmeister: Anyway - I think it's still LGPL - that's why I think I should extend the LGPL over the rest of my code - it's easier than MIT license here, LGPL license there, here a license, there a license, everywhere a license license.
2014-08-13T01:11:14Z joshe: the question isn't really about license, it's about copyright
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2014-08-13T01:11:40Z drmeister: Please go on.
2014-08-13T01:11:44Z joshe: I don't know if the original author(s) would still hold copyright over the resulting code, but I wouldn't be surprised
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2014-08-13T01:12:19Z joshe: certainly you would hold copyright over some/most of the code after contributing so much original work
2014-08-13T01:12:48Z joshe: the safe thing to do would probably keep the original copyright statement, but add one of your own
2014-08-13T01:13:05Z joshe: and keep your work in that file under the same license, to reduce confusion
2014-08-13T01:13:19Z drmeister: Well, I can give that code back to the original copyright holder (whoever that is) but they wouldn't be able to do anything with it because it won't work outside of the rest of my code.
2014-08-13T01:14:00Z drmeister: Yes, I keep the original license in the file.
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2014-08-13T01:17:52Z drmeister: Hopefully I didn't bork the whole system up.  Once I get STREAMs working again I should have a simple single inheritance hierarchy with no requirement for internal pointers - which should work a lot better with the Memory Pool System garbage collector.
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2014-08-13T01:19:49Z drmeister: It will conform better to the ANSI CL specification - I can see I cut some corners implementing my STREAMs.
2014-08-13T01:20:25Z drmeister: It's remarkable how much logic is in the STREAMs code - it's worse than the PATHNAME code.
2014-08-13T01:23:03Z drmeister: The way ECL does things is clever, they set up their own dispatch table and swap in and out different functions to create the different kinds of streams.
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2014-08-13T01:24:48Z drmeister: That's why C++ inheritance didn't work so well.    You can only inherit functions from base classes.   With the ECL approach, I can create an input only stream by only setting up the input functions in the dispatch table.  If I want an input-output stream I set up input and output functions and so on.
2014-08-13T01:25:40Z drmeister: Previously my io stream inherited from InputStream and OutputStream - multiple inheritance - that makes the garbage collector sad.
2014-08-13T01:26:01Z drmeister: Sad garbage collectors don't perform very well.
2014-08-13T01:28:54Z kristof: Why do I keep reading these sections of the GPL in Richard Stallman's voice? It's totally inevitable.
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2014-08-13T01:34:01Z kristof: drmeister: You wouldn't be the copyright holder of a modified version of ECL. Otherwise, you'd be able to rescind the copyright of a later version, defeating the purpose of the GPL.
2014-08-13T01:34:31Z kristof: I looked through the LGPL and found nothing to contradict this mechanism.
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2014-08-13T01:51:56Z drmeister: Thank you - that is my interpretation as well.
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2014-08-13T02:20:40Z drmeister: ECL CLOSE doesn't appear to use the :abort keyword argument - is that a problem?
2014-08-13T02:21:24Z Bike: "If abort is true, an attempt is made to clean up any side effects of having created stream." so i'm gonna say that's fine
2014-08-13T02:21:55Z Bike: though "If stream performs output to a file that was created when the stream was created, the file is deleted and any previously existing file is not superseded. " hm
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2014-08-13T02:24:58Z drmeister: In my previous streams implementation - I kept track of source file lineno/column information when reading text files.  I used that information to associate the objects the reader was reading with source information in a hash table and then used that hash table to build debugging information into my compiled code.   ECL streams don't keep track of any of this.   I'm going to add it in.  Any thoughts?
2014-08-13T02:25:39Z Bike: make sure you make some provision for line ending conventions
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2014-08-13T02:26:39Z drmeister: Annoying but necessary.
2014-08-13T02:27:49Z Xach: does that get affected by something like a read macro that consumes multiple lines?
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2014-08-13T02:30:21Z Zhivago: I'd look at the gray-stream interface.
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2014-08-13T02:32:42Z drmeister: Macros - I haven't figured out what to do with them yet.  Currently when I expand a macro I associate the source information for the unexpanded Sexp with the expanded Sexp.
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2014-08-13T02:34:01Z Zhivago: It's a pity that atom identity precludes annotating those also.
2014-08-13T02:34:12Z drmeister: Or rather, I haven't figured out if that's the best thing to do with macros.
2014-08-13T02:35:12Z drmeister: Zhivago: Atom identity only effects symbols and fixnums and characters - doesn't it?
2014-08-13T02:35:39Z Zhivago: Well, only symbols are the problem there.
2014-08-13T02:36:00Z Zhivago: I guess you could change the meaning of EQ.
2014-08-13T02:36:42Z Zhivago: (In such a way that good people wouldn't notice)
2014-08-13T02:36:50Z drmeister: I don't find it to be a problem.   If an EQ raises an error the backtrace shows you which EQ it was.
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2014-08-13T02:37:34Z Zhivago: Yeah, but that doesn't show the lexical origin of the symbol.
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2014-08-13T02:40:26Z drmeister: But EQ is never in isolation - it's in an Sexp (EQ X Y)  and the Sexp has its lexical origin recorded in the hash table and the compiler uses that when it generates the code.
2014-08-13T02:40:49Z Zhivago: Sure.
2014-08-13T02:43:30Z Zhivago: I guess my point is that X and Y are also Sexps.
2014-08-13T02:43:42Z Zhivago: It's just a question of what granularity you care about.
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2014-08-13T02:47:15Z drmeister: It's something I'd like to think a little deeper on.   Exactly how to best encode source information in the compiled code.   Currently I have two approaches.
2014-08-13T02:50:23Z drmeister: Whenever I generate code for a function application, I look up the source information for that Sexp and every line of LLVM-IR that I generate has the source lineno/column associated with it.  There are also DWARF records for lexical scope, function scope, file scope, and compilation unit scope.  I fill in all of those whenever I enter a new lexical, function, file and compilation unit scope.
2014-08-13T02:51:36Z drmeister: Unfortunately its as useful as t*ts on a bull right now because LLDB doesn't use it and on my only linux environment GDB is so screwed up that it crashes whenever I print a variable.   But on that GDB I can get backtraces that include Common Lisp source lines interleaved with C++ source lines.   Yay!
2014-08-13T02:52:15Z drmeister: Some day in the future this will be awesome.
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2014-08-13T02:53:52Z drmeister: My other approach to debugging is whenever a function is called it pushes a InvocationHistory frame on to the InvocationHistoryStack and within the compiled code for every function I stick debugging statements that update the current line number in the top-most InvocationHistoryFrame.   This has a runtime cost but the backtraces look pretty reasonable.
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2014-08-13T02:57:09Z qbit: :D
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2014-08-13T03:10:54Z drmeister: By t*ts I mean t**ts = teets.
2014-08-13T03:10:59Z drmeister is stayin' classy
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2014-08-13T03:16:33Z drmeister: I came up with a nice way to convert ECL C-struct references like strm->stream.flags into C++ .   I declare a function:   int& StreamFlags(T_sp strm).    Then I can use StreamFlags(strm) to read and write the flags because it returns a reference.
2014-08-13T03:16:49Z drmeister: Putting the "fun" back into "functions".
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2014-08-13T03:42:55Z stack`: Someone here mentioned a project that had something to do with an extension to CL to do image-based programming.  I believe it was an in-image source repository and editing/compiling system or something along these lines.  My notebook lost power before I could check it out - does anyone know about something like that?
2014-08-13T03:43:55Z Bike: this channel is logged, might be able to find it there
2014-08-13T03:45:36Z stack`: How do I get to the logs?
2014-08-13T03:46:14Z Bike: check topic
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2014-08-13T03:53:52Z Vivitron: stack`: ircbrowse.net has the nicest interface to the logs but might be delayed day. The tunes.org link is the most reliable for immediate updates. You might be thinking of pjb's ibcl
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2014-08-13T04:01:03Z stack`: Found it! http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/ These logs sure make you think of making a search engine or some kind of an expert system :)
2014-08-13T04:01:20Z Bike: oh, that kind of image, oops.
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2014-08-13T04:02:40Z Vivitron: stack`: the ircbrowse.net guy beat you to it:)
2014-08-13T04:03:25Z stack`: But imagine - when someone asks a question, a bot distills the knowlege contained in the logs, adds some hubris, and voila!  Then it calls you a moron and tells you to go back to coding in Java.
2014-08-13T04:04:11Z Bike: everyone loves natural language parsing.
2014-08-13T04:05:37Z Zhivago: I love it when someone else does it and it gets it right.
2014-08-13T04:05:50Z pnpuff: right :-)
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2014-08-13T04:23:22Z joe-w-bimedina: How do I get the documentation string of an overloaded defmethod, when I run this: (documentation '(x (point 1 2))) , x (point 1 2)) being how I call my defmethod I get an "invalid number of arguments: 1" error
2014-08-13T04:23:41Z joe-w-bimedina: edit How do I get the documentation string of an overloaded defmethod, when I run this: (documentation '(x (point 1 2))) , (x (point 1 2)) being how I call my defmethod I get an "invalid number of arguments: 1" error
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2014-08-13T04:25:35Z Bike: What's the name of the point class?
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2014-08-13T04:25:44Z joe-w-bimedina: cv-point
2014-08-13T04:26:09Z Bike: (documentation (find-method #'x nil (mapcar #'find-class '(cv-point))) t)
2014-08-13T04:26:12Z Bike: not very common
2014-08-13T04:27:51Z joe-w-bimedina: oh cool, thanks alot for that:)
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2014-08-13T04:29:26Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-08-13T04:29:38Z joe-w-bimedina: good morning:)
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2014-08-13T05:54:19Z slyrus: morning beach
2014-08-13T05:55:07Z slyrus: beach: is gsharp still under development? I'm impressed by the haskell music-suite (and the lilypod backend).
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2014-08-13T06:03:24Z beach: slyrus: I am not developing it right now.
2014-08-13T06:03:49Z beach: slyrus: I am kind of waiting for CLIMatis to be usable.
2014-08-13T06:04:14Z beach: slyrus: Will you be in Montreal?
2014-08-13T06:04:23Z slyrus: sadly, no
2014-08-13T06:04:29Z beach: :(
2014-08-13T06:04:36Z slyrus: waiting for climatis by developing it or waiting for others to do so?
2014-08-13T06:04:40Z slyrus: are you going to montreal?
2014-08-13T06:04:56Z beach: By developing it. And yes.
2014-08-13T06:05:29Z beach: moore33 is helping me design the presentation types of it.
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2014-08-13T06:06:04Z slyrus: nice! looking forward to checking it out one of these days!
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2014-08-13T06:07:35Z beach: The output part of CLIMatis is already working quite well.  But input is so tied to presentation types that I didn't do very much about that yet; only primitive stuff like clicks on buttons, scrolling, etc.
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2014-08-13T06:09:11Z beach: While Lilypond might look OK, if you look closer, there are major flaws in the presentation, such as stems that are not attached to noteheads at the right place.
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2014-08-13T06:24:09Z slyrus: I'm all for something better. does gsharp do tablature?
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2014-08-13T06:27:45Z pjb: It could be extended to do it.
2014-08-13T06:27:51Z pjb: It can do lyrics.
2014-08-13T06:32:07Z beach: slyrus: Extending it is fairly straightforward.  As long as you provide methods for computing the size and duration of your objects, and methods for displaying them, Gsharp will happily deal with them.
2014-08-13T06:33:01Z slyrus: I'm surprised Krystof hasn't gotten lute tablature supported yet :)
2014-08-13T06:33:27Z beach: Actually, as I recall, he did that.
2014-08-13T06:33:46Z beach: But it is not in the main repository.  Maybe I remember wrong.
2014-08-13T06:33:52Z slyrus: shouldn't be too hard to support guitar tablature then!
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2014-08-13T06:34:04Z beach: Right.
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2014-08-13T06:44:27Z slyrus: beach: it would be nice if gsharp lived on your github page (or somewhere similar) (or, I suppose, for common-lisp.net to be better)
2014-08-13T06:45:01Z beach: Right.  I'll try to deal with that when I get back from ILC.
2014-08-13T06:45:31Z beach: Also, moore33 and myself have a plan to develop a new version for tablets, with their unique gestures.
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2014-08-13T06:47:36Z slyrus: cool, on both counts!
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2014-08-13T06:51:40Z easye`: Not sure if this makes a whole lot of sense but does anyone know of a Paxos implementation in CL?
2014-08-13T06:53:54Z brucem: easye`: If you find yourself implementing such a thing, you would probably find Raft an adequate alternative to Paxos and significantly easier to understand + implement.
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2014-08-13T06:55:27Z easye`: brucem: thanks for the tip.  I'll check it out.
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2014-08-13T06:56:46Z H4ns: brucem: nice, thanks for that.  i find http://raftconsensus.github.io/ illuminating.
2014-08-13T06:58:03Z brucem: H4ns: yeah, that's a great site for it. :)
2014-08-13T06:59:19Z easye`: Is the Ousterhout Raft author different from the creator of TCL?
2014-08-13T06:59:59Z easye`: Nope, same guy.  I thought Ousterhout has passed away for some reason.
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2014-08-13T07:06:02Z Zhivago: Just wait a bit longer.
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2014-08-13T08:13:58Z joe-w-bimedina: is there any way to make the return value of foreign-funcall be a type I defined with define-foreign-type?
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2014-08-13T08:16:12Z Bike: specify your type in the foreign-funcall call?
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2014-08-13T08:17:33Z joe-w-bimedina: I have this one here : (cffi:foreign-funcall "cv_create_Mat"  :pointer) that I would like to change to use my cv-mat type like this: (cffi:foreign-funcall "cv_create_Mat"  cv-mat)
2014-08-13T08:18:04Z Bike: so, do it. what happens.
2014-08-13T08:19:00Z joe-w-bimedina: I get "unknown CFFI type: CV-MAT."
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2014-08-13T08:19:49Z Bike: so, define cv-mat first.
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2014-08-13T08:21:49Z joe-w-bimedina: oops, my mistake, I thought it wanted the cv-mat I use in my defmethods, but it just accepted the actual type defined by define-foreign-type, mat, sorry about that
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2014-08-13T08:27:07Z pnpuff: joe-w-bimedina: if you're using opencv there is also an existing wrapper implemented in CL
2014-08-13T08:28:37Z joe-w-bimedina: I know, it wraps the deprecated C interface and is incomplete
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2014-08-13T08:31:21Z pnpuff: The incompleteness is related to any uman activity. I don't know about the deprecated interface. Good job!
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2014-08-13T08:35:38Z joe-w-bimedina: yea I'm hoping that with drmeisters Lisp as my low-level code, I will have a real professional library, I'm hoping the code his lisp returns is almost, if not as fast as C++
2014-08-13T08:36:12Z pnpuff: *human
2014-08-13T08:36:50Z joe-w-bimedina: I figured:)
2014-08-13T08:37:19Z pnpuff: joe-w-bimedina: do you have the code of that compiler?
2014-08-13T08:39:46Z joe-w-bimedina: no, I'm waiting until drmeister releases it, it should be soon, its a major breakthrough for Lisp
2014-08-13T08:40:31Z joe-w-bimedina: here is a video on it though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h31pURzgYX8&hd=1
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2014-08-13T08:50:07Z pnpuff: joe-w-bimedina: I don't know the implementation details, so I'm not able to figure out but, if I'm nt wrong, I think it will be a front end for the LLVM written in CL.
2014-08-13T08:51:32Z pnpuff: similar to clang
2014-08-13T08:52:18Z joe-w-bimedina: here is a link where it talks all about it, it is real interesting: http://drmeister.wordpress.com/2014/07/06/why-did-i-write-the-clasp-compiler/
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2014-08-13T08:54:07Z pnpuff: wow... I think the future will be the study about programmable matter. It's interesting.
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2014-08-13T08:54:24Z pnpuff: At least, one topic to develop in the future...
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2014-08-13T08:55:29Z pnpuff: from bits to atoms and conversely from atoms to bits.
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2014-08-13T08:58:16Z joe-w-bimedina: that sounds cool, I thought about using emacs/gedit etc macros or making them better in a way so you can intelligently program your environment as you go, instead of just writing apps
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2014-08-13T09:01:16Z joe-w-bimedina: oh yea like the t1000 in T2
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2014-08-13T09:23:08Z elderK: Is it just me or is loop ugly?
2014-08-13T09:23:19Z AeroNotix: elderK: some people think so, some people don't
2014-08-13T09:23:54Z elderK: The clauses just don't seem very lispy. But then, that's just a superficial knee-jerk reaction to them not being all s-expressiony.
2014-08-13T09:23:57Z elderK: So really, eh.
2014-08-13T09:23:58Z elderK: :)
2014-08-13T09:24:05Z elderK: I guess It's better to say that it looks out of place.
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2014-08-13T09:31:58Z phadthai: elderK: a question of habit, I guess... there are also alternative libraries, since loop is afterall only a macro, although a standard one
2014-08-13T09:32:29Z elderK: phadthai: Which is the draw, really.
2014-08-13T09:32:31Z elderK: Standard is good.
2014-08-13T09:32:48Z elderK: I'm so used to Scheme.
2014-08-13T09:33:07Z elderK: IT's like going to another English speaking country but one where they have a crazy accent and the words are all slightly different.
2014-08-13T09:33:09Z elderK: So, Scotloand.
2014-08-13T09:33:10Z elderK: :P
2014-08-13T09:33:16Z elderK: *Scotland
2014-08-13T09:33:16Z elderK: :P
2014-08-13T09:35:39Z phadthai: the syntax also appears very verbose to me, similarily to some algol or sql statements
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2014-08-13T09:36:07Z phadthai: especially for hash table iteration
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2014-08-13T09:37:52Z phadthai: "for key being each hash-key of dict using (hash-value val)" so yes it's almost an english dialect as you remarked
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2014-08-13T09:46:24Z elderK: yeah, exactly.
2014-08-13T09:46:27Z elderK: phadthai: that's what I mean.
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2014-08-13T09:47:46Z wasamasa: elderK: I've heard good thinks about iterate
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2014-08-13T09:48:56Z wasamasa: damnit, did I just write "thinks" instead of "things"
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2014-08-13T09:57:44Z splittist: LOOP as specified can be verbose, is unlispy, can't be extended, and is a fabulous tool for clearly specifying iterative algorithms. (:
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2014-08-13T10:04:16Z cy: splittist speaks, and then there's a split
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2014-08-13T10:06:28Z splittist: (:
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2014-08-13T10:13:38Z loke: LOOP is the most powerful iteration system in any language that I have ever used. That makes it pretty damn lispy to me
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2014-08-13T10:14:12Z H4ns: avoiding loop is for rookies :)
2014-08-13T10:14:38Z loke: True that. A real pro knows exactly how he can avoid the use of LOOP, and the proceeds to use LOOP.
2014-08-13T10:14:46Z loke: s/the/then/
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2014-08-13T10:16:15Z Zhivago: Unless inappropriate.
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2014-08-13T10:16:28Z loke: Zhivago: When obviously.
2014-08-13T10:16:31Z loke: Well
2014-08-13T10:16:45Z Zhivago: LOOP isn't as powerful as first class continuations. :)
2014-08-13T10:16:50Z loke: I tend to use DOLIST rather than look for x in ...
2014-08-13T10:17:05Z Zhivago: The trick is that figuring out when LOOP is inappropriate is non-trivial.
2014-08-13T10:17:26Z H4ns: loke: yeah.  and dolist has an implicit tagbody, too! :D
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2014-08-13T10:18:53Z Zhivago: Generally I advise using LOOP for simple cases that happen to fit its predefined insanity.
2014-08-13T10:19:40Z Zhivago: (loop for x from 1 to 10 collecting x) is a good example.
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2014-08-13T10:21:07Z AeroNotix: Zhivago: well surely you would just write a function to do that
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2014-08-13T10:25:14Z Zhivago: Write a function to do what?
2014-08-13T10:25:20Z AeroNotix: Zhivago: range
2014-08-13T10:25:40Z Zhivago: Why write it when loop can write it for you?
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2014-08-13T10:25:48Z AeroNotix: Zhivago: because loop looks retarded
2014-08-13T10:26:01Z AeroNotix: (range 10) is better than (loop for x from 1 to 10 collecting x)
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2014-08-13T10:26:31Z Zhivago: So, what about when you want to count down?
2014-08-13T10:26:55Z AeroNotix: Zhivago: i'm not saying it can't be implemnented with LOOP
2014-08-13T10:26:58Z AeroNotix: (range 10 1)
2014-08-13T10:27:00Z AeroNotix: would be backwards
2014-08-13T10:27:44Z Zhivago: Now try the squares of 10 to 1.
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2014-08-13T10:29:01Z AeroNotix: Zhivago: then you would use LOOP
2014-08-13T10:29:06Z H4ns: AeroNotix: it is showing that you're a cl rookie. :)
2014-08-13T10:29:15Z AeroNotix: I'm saying to grow a language which is more specific to the task at hand
2014-08-13T10:29:26Z Zhivago: That's what LOOP is, for these examples.
2014-08-13T10:29:30Z AeroNotix: H4ns: so you prefer to have LOOP every where rather than abstracting what LOOP is doing?
2014-08-13T10:29:49Z AeroNotix: In *specific* places, where it makes sense
2014-08-13T10:30:01Z AeroNotix: I'm not advocating that all instances of LOOP should be replaced with a named function
2014-08-13T10:30:13Z AeroNotix: but the specific case of what Zhivago said, which was effectively a range function
2014-08-13T10:30:16Z H4ns: AeroNotix: yes.  i hate over-abstracted code.  if a loop expresses what i want to do, why should i burden the person reading the code with an abstraction that i only use once?
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2014-08-13T10:30:49Z AeroNotix: H4ns: No. I'm advocating refactoring out common pattens into functions, range certainly is something that I would want to be in a named function
2014-08-13T10:31:23Z Zhivago: The problem with range is that it's not clear what (range 10) means.
2014-08-13T10:32:05Z AeroNotix: Hmm, I disagree with that but I guess it's hard to name functions :)
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2014-08-13T10:32:33Z AeroNotix: kind of off-topic -- is there anything like Python's context managers?
2014-08-13T10:32:47Z AeroNotix: I could easily write it.. but still.
2014-08-13T10:35:24Z zwer: there's at least one ambiguity there: is 10 included in the list.
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2014-08-13T10:36:03Z H4ns: "range" does not bear enough meaning anyway
2014-08-13T10:36:18Z AeroNotix: http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/2df2rm/should_my_startup_attempt_to_use_abcl_in_a/ Could be an interesting thread
2014-08-13T10:36:35Z AeroNotix: zwer: typical implementations do 0 upto 10
2014-08-13T10:36:43Z Zhivago: (when (in (range 50) enemy-tank) ...) :)
2014-08-13T10:38:10Z zwer: AeroNotix by typical you mean "what the language I'm used to does"? for example, python doesn't include 10, haskell does.
2014-08-13T10:38:17Z splittist: (home-on (the (range ...)))
2014-08-13T10:38:24Z phadthai: also, what is the step, does it return a list or another structure, an iterator function or a stream; if you need a range plus another condition, or to do anything with the returned numbers, this becomes as powerless as most language loop systems
2014-08-13T10:39:17Z Zhivago: (loop for x from 1 to 10 collecting (* x 2)) has the advantage of being clear, if slightly verbose.
2014-08-13T10:41:00Z H4ns: terseness is good only when it is part of a commonly shared base vocabulary.  in most other contexts, terseness makes things harder to understand.
2014-08-13T10:41:14Z AeroNotix: H4ns: this is a good point
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2014-08-13T10:44:10Z Zhivago: Still, I dislike using loop for things significantly more complex than that kind of thing.
2014-08-13T10:44:16Z phadthai: I see a great use for embedded range support in DSLs which need them; like character ranges for a regex or other similar system; then the syntax will vary depending on context however
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2014-08-13T10:48:33Z wasamasa: phadthai: sounds like ruby
2014-08-13T10:48:58Z loke: Seems to me like AeroNotix wants APL. (range 10) is horribly verbose
2014-08-13T10:49:04Z loke: It should be just: ⍳10
2014-08-13T10:49:08Z AeroNotix: haha
2014-08-13T10:49:55Z loke: your squares would be 2⋆⍳10
2014-08-13T10:50:09Z loke: oops
2014-08-13T10:50:21Z loke: I mean: 2⋆⍨⍳10
2014-08-13T10:50:36Z AeroNotix: loke: <- this guy gets it
2014-08-13T10:50:39Z AeroNotix: :D
2014-08-13T10:51:05Z loke: AeroNotix: Note that all my examples was APL. I never suggested Lisp needed it
2014-08-13T10:51:07Z Shinmera: obviously ranges should be 【10,20】
2014-08-13T10:51:46Z AeroNotix: loke: I was joking
2014-08-13T10:51:53Z loke: Shinmera:  Pfft... You're not boiling it down to the pure essence. APL already has you covered: 10+⍳10
2014-08-13T10:52:03Z Shinmera: or 〖10,20〗
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2014-08-13T10:52:11Z Shinmera: or some other equally fancy unicode symbol
2014-08-13T10:52:17Z wasamasa: clearly, we need a lisp with funky braces, brackets and parens
2014-08-13T10:52:24Z wasamasa: and quotes
2014-08-13T10:52:30Z AeroNotix: and remove the macros, too
2014-08-13T10:52:34Z AeroNotix: They just get in the way
2014-08-13T10:52:34Z Shinmera: something akin to whitespace, but with all forms of brackets found in unicode
2014-08-13T10:52:35Z loke: wasamasa: Reader macros. Lisp got you covered. :-)
2014-08-13T10:52:35Z wasamasa: japanese quotes and guillemots sound fun
2014-08-13T10:53:01Z wasamasa: loke: I'm still pretty sad elisp doesn't give me reader macros
2014-08-13T10:53:11Z Shinmera: someone should write a language like that so we can point to it and say "well at least Lisp isn't as bad as that"
2014-08-13T10:53:20Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: Clojure doesn't either
2014-08-13T10:53:34Z loke: wasamasa: APL already uses those: "Max value" uses it, like this: ⌈/⍵
2014-08-13T10:53:45Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: wat
2014-08-13T10:54:01Z wasamasa: loke: I still have no idea what APL is good for except font coverage tests
2014-08-13T10:54:10Z AeroNotix: There are some reader macros "built-in" but you can't really add them yourself without mega hacks
2014-08-13T10:54:53Z loke: wasamasa: Well, it's good for interactively working with array datasets. There is an overlap between APL and R (in fact, you can see lots of ideas in R coming from APL)
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2014-08-13T10:56:49Z elderK: Zhivago: I gave up on iterate when I couldn't get it to build / load.
2014-08-13T10:56:53Z elderK: But I hear you.
2014-08-13T10:57:03Z elderK: I've just spent far more time in scheme than I have in CL.
2014-08-13T10:57:05Z H4ns: bwhaha, while we're happily writing our loops, the folks over in #clojure try to grok what "range" and "loop" does for them :D :D
2014-08-13T10:57:21Z elderK: Named lets and whatnot.
2014-08-13T10:57:41Z elderK: Terminating a loop simply by not calling the name...
2014-08-13T10:57:42Z elderK: :)
2014-08-13T10:57:55Z elderK: Rather than an explicit return/return-from/etc.
2014-08-13T10:58:04Z elderK: Sure, I can do the same thing in CL as I do in Scheme.
2014-08-13T10:58:12Z elderK: But it's probably not the CL way :)
2014-08-13T10:58:15Z elderK: (It's the Scheme way!)
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2014-08-13T10:58:57Z wasamasa: loke: didn't use R yet
2014-08-13T10:59:17Z wasamasa: loke: it looks to me like I could just use python and all libraries for scientific computing and have something saner
2014-08-13T10:59:46Z loke: wasamasa: "sane" meaning, "something I already know", right?
2014-08-13T10:59:56Z Shinmera: snrk
2014-08-13T11:00:05Z loke: Same attitude that prevents a PHP "developer" from learning real development...
2014-08-13T11:00:25Z elderK: OH burnnnn
2014-08-13T11:00:26Z elderK: :p
2014-08-13T11:00:35Z loke: Me, I'm not really using APL that much. I'm just in it for the chicks and the blow.
2014-08-13T11:00:51Z loke: And... the fact that I built the Emacs mode for GNU APL
2014-08-13T11:00:56Z loke: (taking ideas from SLIME)
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2014-08-13T11:03:09Z vydd: how do you write APL? just curious. do you map all those funky chars and remember the mapping, or you write in "english" and leave the translation to your editor?
2014-08-13T11:03:28Z loke: vydd: You just learn the mapping. It's not hard
2014-08-13T11:03:43Z loke: vydd: there are other input methods too, but they suck
2014-08-13T11:03:57Z loke: (since there aren't that many special symbols actually)
2014-08-13T11:04:15Z vydd: loke: how many symbols are there to remember, roughly?
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2014-08-13T11:05:06Z loke: vydd: 82
2014-08-13T11:05:24Z loke: But several of them are so rarely used that I can't remember where they are
2014-08-13T11:05:35Z vydd: is there a standard mapping? (I know I could just google that, but...)
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2014-08-13T11:06:30Z loke: you can start GNU APL and type ]KEYB
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2014-08-13T11:07:27Z loke: This is the output (stupid non-proportial font)
2014-08-13T11:07:28Z loke: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143388
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2014-08-13T11:07:53Z pnpuff: loke: do you use APl only for fun or do you like it?
2014-08-13T11:08:22Z loke: pnpuff: You are suggesting there is a >0 chance that I use it for fun but not liking it? :-)
2014-08-13T11:08:27Z Shinmera: aren't both of those options the same
2014-08-13T11:09:01Z pnpuff: :-)
2014-08-13T11:09:19Z loke: I made this video of my emacs mode: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yP4A5CKITnM
2014-08-13T11:09:34Z vydd: cool
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2014-08-13T11:10:14Z loke: It has more features now and syntax highlighting didn't work in that version
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2014-08-13T11:22:49Z vydd: loke: is your emacs mode available for download somewhere?
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2014-08-13T11:52:37Z AeroNotix: H4ns: where was the range discussion in #clojure?
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2014-08-13T13:06:01Z pnpuff: I don't know if the question makes sense, but how difficoult would be retargeting an actual bytecode CL compiler to LLVM, rather than creating a new one CL compilers that compiles to LLVM-IR from scratch?
2014-08-13T13:06:20Z pnpuff: *compiler
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2014-08-13T16:28:47Z _2_zyla: hi
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2014-08-13T16:32:38Z Xach: Hello
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2014-08-13T16:33:04Z pnpuff: Hello
2014-08-13T16:33:27Z jasom: pnpuff: some have done a little work using llvm for sbcl codegen.  Using a bytecode CL compiler makes no sense since LLVM doesn't work best as bytecode to be interpreted, it's more of a compiler IR.
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2014-08-13T16:36:51Z stacksmith: G'day
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2014-08-13T17:08:55Z didi: Is http://paste.lisp.org/display/143389 an OK way of collecting the last N elements of a list?
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2014-08-13T17:10:50Z Bike: didi: are you trying to reimplement nthcdr or what
2014-08-13T17:11:14Z didi: Bike: `nthcdr' counts from left to right, doesn't it?
2014-08-13T17:11:26Z Bike: Oh, I see.
2014-08-13T17:11:51Z didi: Bike: But I'm worried that I'm reinventing a function here.
2014-08-13T17:13:48Z ggole: last?
2014-08-13T17:14:19Z didi: *boink*
2014-08-13T17:14:32Z ggole: And butlast for the complement
2014-08-13T17:14:38Z Bike: oh yeah, haha, totally forgot.
2014-08-13T17:14:46Z didi: Oh well...
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2014-08-13T17:14:52Z Bike: And the clhs even provides an example implementation.
2014-08-13T17:14:52Z didi: ggole: Thank you.
2014-08-13T17:15:18Z Bike: didi: by the way, you don't need that block. the defun defines an implicit (block onlylast ...) around everything anyway.
2014-08-13T17:15:34Z didi: Bike: Aaah. Nice.
2014-08-13T17:15:54Z didi: Then I'm not so angry for writing it.
2014-08-13T17:15:59Z ggole: No worries, I've done my share of forgetting and reimplementing existing facilities.
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2014-08-13T17:18:28Z Xach: it's hard because cl has such obscure historical names
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2014-08-13T17:19:18Z didi: ಠ_ಠ
2014-08-13T17:21:02Z ggole: It's easy to carelessly write something that is essentially the specialisation of an existing function with a particular keyword argument, too.
2014-08-13T17:21:12Z ggole: (Without realizing it.)
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2014-08-13T17:47:04Z johnwalker: is there an analagous library in common lisp to https://github.com/stuartsierra/component ?
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2014-08-13T17:48:22Z Xach: johnwalker: I don't think so.
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2014-08-13T17:49:54Z johnwalker: thanks Xach . is that something you think would be useful ?
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2014-08-13T17:51:02Z Xach: johnwalker: I don't really know, sorry.
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2014-08-13T17:51:32Z wasamasa: johnwalker: would it make sense for a language that isn't using immutable data structures by default?
2014-08-13T17:51:36Z Xach: johnwalker: Sometimes you have to use something for a while before you appreciate what it does for you. It can be hard to just read about it and use your imagination.
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2014-08-13T17:52:25Z Xach: It took me a long time to bother trying paredit, for example.
2014-08-13T17:53:01Z johnwalker: i see. that is also a good answer ;p
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2014-08-13T17:53:33Z johnwalker: wasamasa: the idea is that you manage state using a dependency graph. it's not so much about immutability
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2014-08-13T17:54:36Z johnwalker: maybe clos can do it trivially already, i really don't know
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2014-08-13T17:59:40Z AeroNotix: johnwalker: it's trivial to implement really
2014-08-13T17:59:55Z AeroNotix: it's a dependency graph that walks down each component and calls (start component) on it
2014-08-13T18:00:01Z AeroNotix: in the correct order
2014-08-13T18:00:16Z AeroNotix: Despite saying its trivial, it's a neat way to organize stuff
2014-08-13T18:00:33Z AeroNotix: I hope CL users wouldn't just automatically assume it's bad because it's from the Clojure world.
2014-08-13T18:01:46Z stacksmith: is there a lisp-fu way to split-sequence a string into 3, the first two with a delimiter and the third holding the remaining substring?  I can do it with by split-sequence for the first two and subseq for the third - curious if there is a more impressive way.
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2014-08-13T18:03:28Z AeroNotix: stacksmith: a quick call to loop would work
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2014-08-13T18:04:17Z stacksmith: I have yet to master the intricacies of loop.
2014-08-13T18:04:25Z AeroNotix: stacksmith: as have I
2014-08-13T18:04:56Z jdz: stacksmith: dosn't split-sequence have a keyword argument to that (:count?)
2014-08-13T18:05:36Z stacksmith: Correct, but it returns an index to the rest of the string, not the remaining substring.
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2014-08-13T18:06:04Z stacksmith: Easy to subseq with it, of course.
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2014-08-13T18:07:28Z Xach: stacksmith: easiest, i think, to wrap split-sequence for it.
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2014-08-13T18:08:06Z stacksmith: Xach, that's what I thought.  Thanks
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2014-08-13T18:09:11Z dlowe: easiest to use cl-ppcre:split
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2014-08-13T18:10:54Z Shinmera: Why not just look for the positions of the first two and then simply call subseq?
2014-08-13T18:11:34Z Xach: oh yeah, cl-ppcre:split is good.
2014-08-13T18:12:00Z dlowe: cl-ppcre:split also supports returning strings with shared structure, which is nice.
2014-08-13T18:12:35Z jasom: AeroNotix: you can accomplish a lot of dependency injection in lisp via various generic function features
2014-08-13T18:12:37Z Xach: Shinmera: it's easy to do it from first principles. it's nice if someone has already done the work.
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2014-08-13T18:13:03Z AeroNotix: jasom: sure, but this is different
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2014-08-13T18:13:22Z AeroNotix: it's more about having distinct components in your program (think actors) that you start separately, but in a clearly define order
2014-08-13T18:13:25Z jasom: AeroNotix: is there a better introduction than the 40 minute video linked in the readme?
2014-08-13T18:13:32Z AeroNotix: jasom: not really, it's a good video
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2014-08-13T18:13:53Z Shinmera: Xach: I guess, but this is such a trivial and tiny thing that I wouldn't want to invoke any library for it unless I already have it in my deps anyway.
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2014-08-13T18:14:39Z jasom: AeroNotix: I'll watch it when I have the time then.  There is historically a bias in lisp against trivial libraries since in the pre-quicklisp days getting multiple libraries to work together was a bit tricky.
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2014-08-13T18:15:24Z jasom: (And for "a bit tricky" read "It's a factor of 10 easier to rewrite the 20% of that library I need than to figure out how to get that library to work")
2014-08-13T18:15:57Z jasom: and for "historically" think post-genera
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2014-08-13T18:16:59Z Xach: Shinmera: good for you.
2014-08-13T18:17:06Z AeroNotix: jasom: so, with Clojure, dependencies are *trivial* for 99% of people's use-cases
2014-08-13T18:17:09Z jasom: "n particular, the 'component' library assumes that all application state is passed as arguments to the functions that use it."  <-- that would also be an issue; there seems to be a bias towards dynamic bindings over this style
2014-08-13T18:17:24Z AeroNotix: jasom: so it's very often that you'll see small libraries
2014-08-13T18:17:38Z AeroNotix: jasom: there's no reason it need be implemented exactly the same way
2014-08-13T18:17:43Z jasom: AeroNotix: true
2014-08-13T18:18:11Z stacksmith: With quicklisp, it's easy enough to bring in a library.  And if it's contained and does what you need, it's probably better then reinventing the wheel...
2014-08-13T18:18:35Z jasom: stacksmith: agreed
2014-08-13T18:18:46Z AeroNotix: stacksmith: nowadays, yes. jasom is referring to a time devoid of quicklisp
2014-08-13T18:18:56Z AeroNotix: which I personally and thankfully don't know
2014-08-13T18:19:04Z jasom: The dark days of asdf-install and clocc
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2014-08-13T18:19:29Z stacksmith: Well, my hat is off for quicklisp.
2014-08-13T18:20:41Z cy: isn't quicklisp still beta, technically?
2014-08-13T18:21:04Z Xach: yes
2014-08-13T18:21:11Z jasom: cy: just like gmail was for like 10 years
2014-08-13T18:21:42Z jasom: okay 5 years... I just looked it up
2014-08-13T18:21:50Z stacksmith: Is it like being 'engaged' for years?
2014-08-13T18:22:05Z Xach: quicklisp is almost at 5 years
2014-08-13T18:22:12Z Xach shame
2014-08-13T18:22:55Z AeroNotix: Xach: a roadmap and a hefty todo section would be awesome
2014-08-13T18:22:59Z johnwalker: whats going to be new in 1.0 ?
2014-08-13T18:23:05Z AeroNotix: Does QL get a lot of contributors?
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2014-08-13T18:24:17Z Xach: AeroNotix: hundreds! i didn't write all those libraries myself.
2014-08-13T18:24:31Z jasom: Xach: isn't quicklisp itself all you though basically?
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2014-08-13T18:24:54Z Xach: Pretty much. I've gotten some patches here & there.
2014-08-13T18:25:16Z Xach: There are great value add things like cl-test-grid and quickdocs for which I can claim no credit
2014-08-13T18:25:26Z stacksmith: Xach, so what would it take to bring it out of beta?
2014-08-13T18:25:31Z AeroNotix: Xach: yeah this is what I meant - a lot of TODOs could be helpful to see what you would like help with
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2014-08-13T18:26:02Z cy: seriously. i'd pitch in if i knew what to do
2014-08-13T18:26:20Z AeroNotix: this^
2014-08-13T18:26:39Z AeroNotix: The other thing is; it works! haha
2014-08-13T18:26:46Z Xach: johnwalker: a manual, better verification of download integrity, hookable archive fetching, better distinction between projects you're hacking on and projects you're just using for infrastructure
2014-08-13T18:26:47Z AeroNotix: So it's unclear what's broken underneath
2014-08-13T18:27:00Z Xach: usage examples for people who want to use it to accelerate developing their own projects
2014-08-13T18:27:18Z AeroNotix: Xach: did you think of what to do for things like "virtual environments" akin to venv with Python
2014-08-13T18:27:25Z Xach: i've seen several commercial users who all have their own way of doing stuff, and it would be nice to at least cut a clearer path for people to follow if they like
2014-08-13T18:27:38Z Xach: AeroNotix: not really. i don't know much about that.
2014-08-13T18:27:42Z jasom: AeroNotix: it already supports that since you can have multiple quicklisps installed
2014-08-13T18:27:48Z AeroNotix: hm
2014-08-13T18:27:58Z stacksmith: Sometimes, delegating tasks and managing all those who would like to help (and gauging their skill levels) can be a daunting task.  It can make one hate the whole thing.
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2014-08-13T18:28:10Z AeroNotix: jasom: you said there is a way, Xach says he doesn't know. There should be a de facto supported way to do something like that
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2014-08-13T18:28:36Z jasom: AeroNotix: I guess it depends on which features of venv you use
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2014-08-13T18:28:59Z Xach: stacksmith: I am also picky. I have had bad luck taking patches for the sake of getting something done and then later really regretting the style and divergence from how I'd do things.
2014-08-13T18:29:02Z jasom: IIRC venv even lets you have separate python installs to each venv; ql definitely doesn't have an equivalent
2014-08-13T18:29:17Z PuercoPop: AeroNotix: I think working on top of cl-launch to make a 'lein' would work wonders
2014-08-13T18:29:33Z Xach offline for a bit, sorry
2014-08-13T18:29:57Z PuercoPop: jasom: ql has distributions, you can roll your own. (which would be akin to running your own pypi server, which is not unheard of)
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2014-08-13T18:31:38Z foom: I still keep meaning to make a quicklisp über git repository that imports everything at the quicklisp version snapshot. And ideally it'd use a subtree merge to actually pull the history of the projects if they're using git, although that's not easy to determine in the general case.
2014-08-13T18:31:52Z Xach: I'll leave with one thing: I tried to make quicklisp in such a way that people could get value from it without coordinating with me. I'm happy that enterprising people have made that work for certain projects. I'd love to make it easier but haven't had the time & energy yet. So get all gumptiony and make something cool and don't ask anyone how or why!
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2014-08-13T18:32:56Z stacksmith: Xach: having spent years hacking _and_ managing, I prefer hacking.
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2014-08-13T18:34:31Z stacksmith: OK, stupid question.  I evaluated a defpackage form, and the :use form inside didn't have :cl.  Now the compiler barks about :use being undefined and I am a bit lost.  Suggestions?
2014-08-13T18:34:44Z Xach: stacksmith: try again with (cl:defpackage ...)
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2014-08-13T18:36:08Z Xach: the second time around, it's treating your symbol defpackage as naming a function, and trying to evaluate its arguments by normal evaluation rules.
2014-08-13T18:36:22Z Xach: since the bare defpackage is not cl:defpackage
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2014-08-13T18:36:38Z stacksmith: Argh, name-conflicts...
2014-08-13T18:37:43Z Xach: You can resolve 'em, or just restart lisp and try again. sometimes it's easier to do that.
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2014-08-13T18:38:18Z stacksmith: endless errors.  It's amazing!
2014-08-13T18:38:41Z stacksmith: I think delete-package is the way to go now.
2014-08-13T18:38:56Z AeroNotix: stacksmith: endless restarts :)
2014-08-13T18:39:11Z Vivitron: probably easiest, or shadowing import all of cl
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2014-08-13T18:43:10Z Xach also wants to write a pamphlet on the package system
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2014-08-13T18:49:06Z dim: Xach: on, or against?
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2014-08-13T18:49:37Z dim: IIRC Ron Garret has a PDF rather against the defpackage system
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2014-08-13T18:51:01Z dim: http://www.flownet.com/ron/packages.pdf
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2014-08-13T18:59:02Z drmeister: There doesn't seem to be any facility for getting the name of a stream - am I missing something?
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2014-08-13T18:59:10Z drmeister: facility == Common Lisp function
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2014-08-13T19:02:17Z dim: the name of a stream?
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2014-08-13T19:07:05Z kristof: Such a function would be called (get-name stream). Where stream is the name of the stream. ...but...
2014-08-13T19:08:04Z cy: it might be useful if you have a reference to a stream but need to know its name
2014-08-13T19:08:31Z cy: e.g. check if it's stdin, but then again you could just compare it to stdin, couldn't you?
2014-08-13T19:08:46Z dim: I'm confused, I didn't understand streams had a name
2014-08-13T19:08:58Z kristof: I assume name means pointer.
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2014-08-13T19:09:35Z kristof: So I assume you'd just pprint the symbol referring to the stream if you wanted to know its name.
2014-08-13T19:12:00Z Bike: streams don't have names.
2014-08-13T19:12:46Z Bike: *standard-output* => #, for example
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2014-08-13T19:15:08Z AeroNotix: with cffi how do I do a type alias ?
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2014-08-13T19:39:25Z didi: dim: Nice document.
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2014-08-13T19:53:26Z dim: yeah, helped me a lot when starting
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2014-08-13T19:56:37Z enn: Hello ... I was hoping that I could use array displacement to create a two-dimensional window onto a portion of a two-dimensional array, but it looks like displacement doesn't work that way. Is there any other way to do this?
2014-08-13T19:59:29Z Bike: have to do it yourself, unfortunately. displacement doesn't handle skips like you'd need.
2014-08-13T19:59:45Z enn: ok
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2014-08-13T19:59:53Z Bike: you can use a 1d array (or your 2d array with row-major-aref) and do the fortran thing
2014-08-13T20:00:32Z kristof: "do the fortran thing"
2014-08-13T20:00:36Z kristof: nightmare fuel
2014-08-13T20:01:07Z Bike: Really? Usually when I have nightmares they involve being eaten alive or something, not sitting at a desk.
2014-08-13T20:01:13Z Bike: maybe that's just me.
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2014-08-13T20:02:32Z kristof: Being eaten alive would be more interesting than maintaining fortran code
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2014-08-13T21:02:21Z enn: given a two-dimensional array and only one subscript, is there a simple way to get the list of values for that subscript as a vector? (or any kind of sequence)
2014-08-13T21:02:59Z dim: use row-major-aref I'd guess
2014-08-13T21:03:11Z dim: clhs row-major-aref
2014-08-13T21:03:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_row_ma.htm
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2014-08-13T21:54:46Z jasom: Having missed the earlier conversation, I want to go on the record as being for the package system.  It causes regular highly visible problems, but prevents rare invisible problems, which is the correct tradeoff in my opinion.
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2014-08-13T21:57:44Z jasom: cy: if a stream is a file stream, you can get the filename for it, right?
2014-08-13T21:58:10Z jasom: e.g. CL:TRUENAME
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2014-08-13T21:59:34Z cy: jasom: does truename work for streams?
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2014-08-13T21:59:42Z jasom: cy: only file streams
2014-08-13T21:59:50Z cy: neat
2014-08-13T21:59:52Z jasom: cy: a file stream is a pathname designator
2014-08-13T22:00:04Z jasom: so any function that takes a pathname designator can tkae a file stream
2014-08-13T22:00:29Z cy: neat
2014-08-13T22:00:32Z cy: i didn't know that
2014-08-13T22:01:37Z jasom: you can also do (pathname some-file-stream) but it's not well defined what representation you get (it just is some path that points to the file that is open, not necessarily the truename nor the exact path used to open it)
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2014-08-13T22:03:18Z cy: has anyone else been having trouble with ccl on linux?
2014-08-13T22:03:27Z spockokt: cy: which distro?
2014-08-13T22:03:30Z jasom: cy: what sort of trouble, and what version?
2014-08-13T22:03:32Z cy: spockokt: gentoo
2014-08-13T22:03:32Z spockokt: i know that arch has reported problems
2014-08-13T22:03:47Z cy: jasom: it segfaults on launch
2014-08-13T22:03:58Z jasom uses 1.9_p1-r1 on gentoo from portage
2014-08-13T22:04:12Z cy: that's the version that's broken
2014-08-13T22:04:13Z cy: for me
2014-08-13T22:04:24Z cy: it was working until a couple days ag
2014-08-13T22:04:25Z AeroNotix: cy: segfaults on arch
2014-08-13T22:04:27Z cy: o
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2014-08-13T22:05:07Z Xach: dim: on.
2014-08-13T22:05:07Z jasom: I'm about a month out of date on portage, so something more recent may have broken it
2014-08-13T22:05:11Z AeroNotix: 1.9.2 apparently
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2014-08-13T22:05:55Z cy: jasom: it's odd, because it was working until a few days ago, and the only time it installed was last month
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2014-08-13T22:06:21Z dim: Xach: hehe, in french IIRC pamphlet implies against
2014-08-13T22:06:45Z dim: yeah, that's right (thanks wikipedia)
2014-08-13T22:08:34Z dim: in french a pamphlet is supposed to sound violent and virulent (hostile, venemous) ; that explains my first understanding
2014-08-13T22:08:37Z cy: i updated my kernel about a week ago which might be the issue?
2014-08-13T22:09:34Z dim: but well, my references docs for understanding packages had been http://www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf and http://weitz.de/packages.html, what would you add or do differently Xach?
2014-08-13T22:09:49Z spockokt: cy: https://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=25565 if your error is anything like the one reported in the third comment it might be
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2014-08-13T22:10:15Z spockokt: according to that person he mentioned that kernels >= 3.15 seem to have that problem
2014-08-13T22:10:18Z dim: references + of course this very IRC channel and you guys ;-)
2014-08-13T22:11:11Z Xach: dim: i'd remove the PDF's dated inaccuracies and obvious bias
2014-08-13T22:11:12Z cy: spockokt: just upgraded to 3.16 :|
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2014-08-13T22:11:45Z dim: Xach: then I'd promote your work and use it as the new reference!
2014-08-13T22:11:57Z Xach: dim: someday, someday
2014-08-13T22:12:02Z dim: hehe
2014-08-13T22:12:14Z dim: we all have projects for “someday, later”, I rekon
2014-08-13T22:12:47Z Xach: dim: i wrote a didactic implementation of the package system and it helped me understand exactly how everything works together. i'd like to use that code as a framework for sharing that understanding.
2014-08-13T22:13:10Z Xach: it's only a few pages of code
2014-08-13T22:13:36Z dim: I mostly find didactic re-implementations more confusing than anything else, when wanting to understand some documented material
2014-08-13T22:14:04Z Xach: Oh. Well, I hope that's not the case for me, but who can say until it's done?
2014-08-13T22:14:50Z dim: I understand that the process of implementing it again might help understanding in the first place, but I would not advice for proposing the new partial and opinionated implementation as a vector to help understanding from newbies (and that stance is opinionated... mmm well)
2014-08-13T22:15:48Z dim: what helps me most are examples of how it work *and* how it does not work
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2014-08-13T22:17:12Z Xach: dim: I found that reading didactic, simple interpreters helped me understand models of interpretation in Lisp, for what it's worth.
2014-08-13T22:17:53Z dim: yeah, we all tend to learn with different ways
2014-08-13T22:18:40Z Xach: Three tables, some operations to work with them, and four possible errors, and there you have your own package system.
2014-08-13T22:18:44Z dim: I'm spending this weak teaching, always fun to have to repeat the same idea at least once per trainee, and at least a couple of times exactly the same way... you never know which one they got
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2014-08-13T22:19:36Z dim: (and mostly that's because the trainer isn't interesting enough for them to care about every thing that's being said, don't get me wrong)
2014-08-13T22:20:04Z dim: Xach: when sumrized that way that sounds simple enough
2014-08-13T22:20:29Z Xach: The devil is in the details. But there are fewer details than I expected when I started.
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2014-08-13T22:21:15Z dim: http://weitz.de/packages.html might be a modern non-opinionated version of Ron Garret's paper, by the way
2014-08-13T22:22:01Z dim: of course it's not modern enough to mention Quicklisp :(
2014-08-13T22:22:05Z Xach: There are a few outright inaccuracies but what irks me is the overall tone of "Isn't it dumb to have to deal with this stupid thing? Oh well, here's how it works."
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2014-08-13T22:23:30Z nicdev: i like the idea of dedactic re-implementation, and actually got Lisp in Small Pieces to kind of try it out but so far the results have not been great.
2014-08-13T22:23:32Z Xach: I get the same impression from parts of Paul Graham's ANSI Common Lisp and the opposite impression from Practical Common Lisp.
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2014-08-13T22:23:57Z dim: I didn't think about it that way, but you're right about the overall tone of the document, yes
2014-08-13T22:25:30Z cy: thank you, whoever directed me to that archlinux bug report
2014-08-13T22:25:58Z cy: downgrading to 3.12.21 "fixed" the problem :/
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2014-08-13T22:28:17Z spockokt: cy: np also im sorry that you had to downgrade
2014-08-13T22:28:43Z cy: spockokt: not like i can really tell the difference :P
2014-08-13T22:29:04Z cy: i mean the one thing i noticed was they added an option to automatically reboot on a kernel panic
2014-08-13T22:30:36Z cy: til it might be a good idea to keep old kernels around
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2014-08-13T23:22:56Z cy: spockokt: i found the relavent bug report on clozurecl's tracker, and linked to it in a comment on the gentoo bug report. apparently they fixed it 5 weeks ago but the gentoo guys haven't really been interested in it enough to figure that out
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2014-08-13T23:24:43Z cy: speaking of which i should probably post the link to the aur page.
2014-08-13T23:25:16Z kristof: The aur page for what?
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2014-08-13T23:25:28Z cy: clozurecl
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2014-08-13T23:26:17Z kristof: cy: I didn't realize in the aur, I thought it had a large enough following to be in [community]
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2014-08-13T23:26:57Z cy: kristof: apparently not
2014-08-13T23:27:00Z cy: :/
2014-08-13T23:28:09Z AeroNotix: Just needs some votes and a TU to offer to maintain it
2014-08-13T23:28:23Z kristof: yeah, no one cares enough for that
2014-08-13T23:28:54Z kristof: Oh, NOW I remember
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2014-08-13T23:31:48Z jasom: cy: you can post on the gentoo-lisp mailing list
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2014-08-13T23:33:06Z cy: jasom: i've never been active in a community before D: this is the first time i've contributed to a bug report of any kind
2014-08-13T23:33:48Z AeroNotix: cy: welcome
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2014-08-13T23:57:20Z jasom: cy: bug reports that aren't "It doesn't work" are gold; I've fixed bugs before only to have a half-dozen people tell me "That's been bugging me for years"  I didn't know since none of them filed a report.
2014-08-13T23:58:57Z cy: jasom: i've never really come across anything that's bugged me enough to constitute a bug report
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2014-08-14T00:03:42Z cy: jasom: like if something really irritated me i'd open a report, but i'm not gonna start a report for something like tmux's default leader being C-b which conflicts with emacs's default move left binding
2014-08-14T00:04:13Z cy: because that's the nature of most of my annoyances
2014-08-14T00:04:47Z kristof: madness
2014-08-14T00:05:00Z kristof: We need 12 more meta buttons, obviously
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2014-08-14T00:13:26Z jasom: kristof: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Space-cadet.jpg
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2014-08-14T00:15:14Z kristof: I thought I had said "in the spirit of the symbolics lisp machine", but thankfully someone got my drift anyway
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2014-08-14T00:15:21Z kristof: jasom: why does that look so dirty? Absolutely disgusting.
2014-08-14T00:16:44Z k-stz: jasom: lol@ the thumbs up key. way ahead of its time
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2014-08-14T00:38:46Z acebulf: hey is this the channel for speech impediment
2014-08-14T00:39:05Z acebulf: everything I say seems to be incased in parentheses
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2014-08-14T00:43:32Z acebulf: alright lets say I have a list, how do I unpack the list so that it returns its elements
2014-08-14T00:43:57Z |3b|: clhs values-list
2014-08-14T00:43:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_vals_l.htm
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2014-08-14T00:45:11Z acebulf: thanks
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2014-08-14T00:53:26Z acebulf: is there somewhere where I can get a list of all the LISt Processing functions?
2014-08-14T00:54:01Z |3b|: click the up arrow at the top of that page?
2014-08-14T00:54:08Z |3b|: never mind, that isn't lists
2014-08-14T00:54:33Z |3b|: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_conses.htm and http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_sequen.htm maybe
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2014-08-14T01:00:04Z acebulf: thank you
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2014-08-14T02:11:17Z joe-w-bimedina: what is the correct term in Lisp for something that can only be a list or a vector?
2014-08-14T02:12:43Z |3b|: (or list vector)?
2014-08-14T02:13:11Z |3b|: 'sequence' usually means that, but some implementations extend the meaning of 'sequence'
2014-08-14T02:13:59Z joe-w-bimedina: so if I have a function that accepts either a list or a vector as a param then I could name that param sequence right?
2014-08-14T02:15:10Z joe-w-bimedina: probably could just assume that from your last comment:)
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2014-08-14T02:15:40Z |3b|: that would be reasonable, if you don't have a meaningful name for it (for example describing what you expect to be in the sequence)
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2014-08-14T02:16:14Z joe-w-bimedina: ok thanks, just would like my code to make sense
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2014-08-14T03:18:25Z drmeister: Whew, it took one week of solid effort to eliminate virtual/multiple inheritance from my C++ hierarchy.   Originally I had duplicated the Common Lisp class hierarchy in C++.  http://sellout.github.io/2012/03/03/common-lisp-type-hierarchy/
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2014-08-14T03:19:32Z drmeister: I removed Sequence and List and now Cons inherits from T directly.
2014-08-14T03:20:37Z drmeister: In Common Lisp everything is just as it should because I create a SEQUENCE and LIST Common Lisp class and properly set up all of the class-precedence-list(s) for all of the CL classes.
2014-08-14T03:20:55Z joe-w-bimedina: Can I ask, is the Lisp verion of c++ code as fast as in C++
2014-08-14T03:21:08Z kristof: what does that even mean?
2014-08-14T03:21:14Z joe-w-bimedina: congrats btw, not sure I understand though
2014-08-14T03:21:36Z kristof: joe-w-bimedina: Multiple inheritance, while possible in C++, was wrecking his garbage collector.
2014-08-14T03:21:43Z kristof: So he ripped it out for acceptable performance
2014-08-14T03:21:43Z drmeister: The C++ code is called by the CL code.
2014-08-14T03:21:46Z Aranshada|W: I'm so confused.
2014-08-14T03:21:51Z joe-w-bimedina: *Can I ask, is the Lisp verion of c++ code as fast as the C++ code, if that was to me
2014-08-14T03:21:53Z kristof: Aranshada|W: As God intended.
2014-08-14T03:22:10Z kristof: joe-w-bimedina: The C++ code is as fast as the C++ code because it is C++ code.
2014-08-14T03:22:34Z Aranshada|W: So CL code calls C++ code... and the C++ mimics the CL class structure...?
2014-08-14T03:23:04Z Aranshada|W: So you create a list in CL and it actually creates a C++ list in a CL wrapper?
2014-08-14T03:23:19Z joe-w-bimedina: just wondered what the time difference was between running a C++ function and the Lisp version
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2014-08-14T03:24:17Z drmeister: In the 224 C++ classes that inherit from T_O all contained subclasses are aligned at the start of the object in memory.
2014-08-14T03:24:17Z joe-w-bimedina: I know in cffi with  a funcall it is like .010 per million...
2014-08-14T03:24:56Z drmeister: Aranshada|W: Yeah, the C++ class hierarchy mimicked the CL hierarchy.
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2014-08-14T03:25:06Z drmeister: It seemed like a good idea at the time.
2014-08-14T03:26:22Z drmeister: Well, List_O classes were never directly allocated - but I would cast Cons_O* to List_O* and back again.
2014-08-14T03:26:26Z Aranshada|W: So is this just to write better C++ with?
2014-08-14T03:26:41Z Aranshada|W: Or is this to write CL as a wrapper for C++ that mimics CL?
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2014-08-14T03:27:10Z drmeister: Aranshada|W: I'm writing a new Common Lisp implementation.  One that smoothly interoperates with C++.
2014-08-14T03:27:24Z drmeister: C++ calls Common Lisp, Common Lisp calls C++.
2014-08-14T03:27:28Z Aranshada|W: Ah. Okay. That makes sense, then.
2014-08-14T03:27:40Z drmeister: C++ libraries are easily exposed within Common Lisp.
2014-08-14T03:28:04Z drmeister: RAII works, C++ exceptions work etc.
2014-08-14T03:28:24Z drmeister: And it uses LLVM as the backend to generate native code.
2014-08-14T03:28:41Z drmeister: And it exposes the Clang AST/ASTMatcher library to allow you to write C++ refactoring tools in Common Lisp.
2014-08-14T03:29:15Z drmeister: And hopefully now it will have a compacting garbage collector.
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2014-08-14T03:30:13Z joe-w-bimedina: will this be better than the FFI for C++ in any other laguage, sounds like your making Lisp leave all other languages in the dust
2014-08-14T03:30:35Z Bike: You're still using MPS, right? Are you using multiple pool classes?
2014-08-14T03:31:07Z kristof: joe-w-bimedina: It's priveleged interop. It's about the same as any other priveleged interop in a language. Clojure and Java, for instance, or Python and C, or Rust and C.
2014-08-14T03:32:31Z drmeister: Bike: I'm doing all of this refactoring to get MPS to work properly.
2014-08-14T03:32:54Z Bike: oh.
2014-08-14T03:33:30Z joe-w-bimedina: kristof, oh ok, so then was Lisp behind other languages before this then
2014-08-14T03:33:42Z drmeister: When I run with MPS it runs slower and slower as it compiles itself.  I think the multiple inheritance (requiring internal pointers and lots of dynamic casting which required hardware memory barriers to be constantly removed and put back in place) caused problems with the garbage collector.
2014-08-14T03:34:09Z Bike: have you used mps's introspection/profiling facilities?
2014-08-14T03:34:25Z drmeister: That's my hypothesis - so I removed multiple inheritance, it wasn't necessary anyway - and now I'm trying the MPS garbage collector again without all the memory barrier manipulation.
2014-08-14T03:35:36Z drmeister: kristof: That's a new term I haven't heard  "privileged interoperation" - could you say more about it?
2014-08-14T03:37:25Z drmeister: Bike: Yes, the mps introspection/profiling facilities were not very helpful.   I've worked for hours with the folks at Ravenbrook - we couldn't come up with a cure - other than my idea of refactoring the classes.
2014-08-14T03:37:41Z Bike: huh.
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2014-08-14T03:38:11Z drmeister: I think this is why Java only has single inheritance.
2014-08-14T03:38:20Z drmeister: It still does - right?
2014-08-14T03:38:38Z Bike: yes. i've never heard of inheritance strategies messing up GC, though.
2014-08-14T03:38:46Z kristof: drmeister: It has single inheritance for semantic reasons, not performance ones.
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2014-08-14T03:39:43Z kristof: drmeister: I assume that you've designed your compiler such that common lisp functions and C++ functions are ABI compatible, right? That's what comes to mind when you say that C++ libraries are "easily exposed within common lisp".
2014-08-14T03:40:53Z drmeister: kristof: No, you can't make Common Lisp functions ABI compatible with general C++ functions.
2014-08-14T03:41:28Z kristof: drmeister: ...When I actually think about that for more than 5 seconds, that makes sense.
2014-08-14T03:41:32Z kristof: Of course.
2014-08-14T03:41:41Z drmeister: What I did was write lots of C++ template code that generates wrappers at compile time for C++ functions based on their prototypes.
2014-08-14T03:42:33Z kristof: drmeister: Anyway, I mostly made up that phrase. I mostly just mean that there is some language or collection of languages which are special citizens to a compiler. For instance, in Rust, you can declare a function 'extern' and it will have the same ABI as a C function, so you can use it in your C projects.
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2014-08-14T03:43:21Z drmeister: And lots of little translator classes that translate between all sorts of C++ types and CL objects.
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2014-08-14T03:43:34Z kristof: drmeister: And in clojure, there's the class/method syntax that lets you call java methods transparently. So by priveleged interop, I just mean "this language was designed specifically to work with this other language in such a way that it is hassle free and useful".
2014-08-14T03:44:25Z kristof: I wouldn't call it priveleged FFI because, by the nature of the language, those other functions aren't that foreign anymore
2014-08-14T03:44:57Z kristof: drmeister: That sounds like a lot of work. :)
2014-08-14T03:46:43Z drmeister: Yeah - I had no idea.  I thought "implement the 20-odd special operators" and the rest is done in Common Lisp - no no no.
2014-08-14T03:47:54Z drmeister: But anyway, it's almost done now.
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2014-08-14T03:48:35Z kristof: drmeister: That would have worked if you were only interested in implementing common lisp. :P
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2014-08-14T03:48:56Z kristof: A really slow version of it.
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2014-08-14T03:49:22Z drmeister: We'll see.
2014-08-14T03:49:42Z drmeister: It generates LLVM-IR which is compiled to native code by the LLVM library.
2014-08-14T03:49:44Z kristof: drmeister: We'll throw a party when you release v0.1
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2014-08-14T03:50:03Z kristof: drmeister: Oh, I meant "it would be slow if you just wrote the 20 special operators and wrote the rest on top of those things"
2014-08-14T03:50:11Z drmeister: It will run as fast as the IR generated by the compiler allows it too.
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2014-08-14T03:50:32Z drmeister: Oh - yes, that's what I started with.
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2014-08-14T03:51:06Z Bike: i think considering the special operators as being able to implement the rest of the language is wrong in a mislead-y way, though i imagine meister figured that out fast-like
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2014-08-14T03:51:39Z sellout: Bike: In CL in particular, or as an implementation approach in general?
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2014-08-14T03:52:00Z Bike: in CL, i wouldn't want to extend the meaning of "special operators"
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2014-08-14T03:53:22Z drmeister: When Jans Aasman said that to me I still believed it.
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2014-08-14T03:54:00Z drmeister: Of Franz Inc.
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2014-08-14T03:55:02Z sellout: drmeister: Jans said you _could_ do it?
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2014-08-14T03:55:39Z sellout: BTW, who else is going to ILC? I’ll be staying in the dorm, getting there around 19:00 tomorrow.
2014-08-14T03:55:41Z drmeister: No, he said something like "all you have to do is implement the special operators".
2014-08-14T03:56:06Z drmeister: I'm not saying he's wrong.   It's necessary, just not sufficient - by a long shot.
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2014-08-14T03:56:32Z Bike: in CL a "special operator" is just something with unique evaluation/compile semantics, you can't implement streams with them, outside of some turing equivalence bullshit, is all
2014-08-14T03:56:44Z drmeister: There is no Common Lisp source code that can boot up on a minimal system anything near that simple.
2014-08-14T03:56:50Z sellout: I feel like that’s a nice approach to language design (that I use myself), and then you can slowly replace the std lib with more efficient stuff that follows the semantics. Not that CL succeeds, though.
2014-08-14T03:57:03Z drmeister: SICL looks like it's going to try.
2014-08-14T03:57:49Z sellout: drmeister: Yeah, I’m quite interested in SICL. It overlaps with a few of my own projects. Have my fingers crossed that something good comes of it.
2014-08-14T03:58:26Z kristof: You know, I like how many equality operators there are in common lisp, but I wish they had better names.
2014-08-14T03:59:04Z drmeister: Maybe Beach can host it on my system - but I won't propose that until I have mine out - otherwise it's "castles in the sky".
2014-08-14T03:59:08Z Bike: eqp, eqlp, equalp, equalpp. consistency
2014-08-14T03:59:38Z drmeister: Yeah, I don't complain about the names - the important thing is that all that functionality is there and more or less well thought out.
2014-08-14T04:00:31Z drmeister: Also car, caar, caaar, caaaar - try and do that with head and tail/rest.
2014-08-14T04:01:29Z Bike: do like an intro student, implement the cr macro! (cr aaddaada foo) = (caaddr (caadar foo))
2014-08-14T04:02:50Z cy: i have yet to really have a use for those
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2014-08-14T04:03:19Z drmeister: Part of the refactoring is I took 6,000 lines of the STREAM code from ECL and with hammer and tongs converted it into C++ to work with my code.
2014-08-14T04:03:22Z cy: i've used cadr a couple times, but that's about it
2014-08-14T04:04:02Z drmeister: I had to go through that line by line.      It's working now.  My code looks like a Frankenstein monster.   Camel case, underscores (sigh).
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2014-08-14T04:04:29Z drmeister: Feels better though - ECL's STREAMs code was well thought out.
2014-08-14T04:04:42Z kristof: drmeister: I mentioned using LLVM the other day, because I don't want beach wasting time with too much machine code optimization, and he said that that went against his goals
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2014-08-14T04:05:17Z kristof: It's his project, sure, but... come on! Millions of dollars have been put into the LLVM project.
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2014-08-14T04:06:10Z drmeister: It's part of his research.   I'm more practical in a way.   I don't want to reinvent the wheel.
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2014-08-14T04:08:58Z kristof: Oh, anyway, I personally don't think eql should be part of the language, but my opinion isn't really worth anything. :P
2014-08-14T04:09:02Z drmeister: I didn't mean to make that sound like a criticism or anything - we all have our own goals.
2014-08-14T04:09:37Z cy: kristof: eq should be respecified as eql
2014-08-14T04:09:42Z kristof: Nein!
2014-08-14T04:10:24Z kristof: cy: When's the last time you wanted to compare pointer equality OR compare numerical equality in the same place in your code?
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2014-08-14T04:11:26Z cy: kristof: i haven't in CL yet, but....
2014-08-14T04:11:44Z kristof: Also, when's the last time you wanted to compare two numbers but wanted to compare their types, even if they were the same numerically?
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2014-08-14T04:12:43Z cy: i could see it coming in handy
2014-08-14T04:12:53Z cy: though honestly you could just do that explicitly
2014-08-14T04:13:13Z Bike: yeah, i'd not want to lose the ability to compare bignums without allowing floats
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2014-08-14T04:13:38Z kristof: Bike: Why?
2014-08-14T04:15:43Z cy: kristof: bignums are precise, floats aren't
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2014-08-14T04:16:59Z kristof: ...oh that's true.
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2014-08-14T04:21:56Z kristof: I take it back, I literally just now read some code where eql was useful
2014-08-14T04:22:22Z |3b| also like eql when i'm not sure if things are numbers
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2014-08-14T04:23:13Z Bike: if anything eq is the weird one, since it's kind of like "eql, but with a notion of pointer equality not accessible conformingly through any other means"
2014-08-14T04:23:57Z |3b|: or "eql but with some outdated optimizations"
2014-08-14T04:23:59Z Zhivago: EQ is the specialized version of EQL.
2014-08-14T04:24:05Z kristof: I disagree. When I say pointer equality, I really do mean pointer equality.
2014-08-14T04:24:25Z Zhivago: But why do you expect pointers to be involved?
2014-08-14T04:24:38Z kristof: More like I don't expect numbers to be involved.
2014-08-14T04:24:49Z Bike: pointer equality is misleading, it's not like your lisp couldn't store fixnum arguments to eq in registers
2014-08-14T04:24:51Z cy: kristof: pointers to constants
2014-08-14T04:24:54Z Bike: for example
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2014-08-14T04:25:21Z Zhivago: Sure, so if you want to operate on the domain that EQ operates on, the EQ is an appropriately specialized version of EQL to use.
2014-08-14T04:25:47Z kristof: ...maybe eql really is just better.
2014-08-14T04:25:50Z Bike: i don't really have a problem with eq, i just think it's a bit weirder conceptually
2014-08-14T04:25:52Z Zhivago: Likewise, symbols could be represented as kinds of integers.
2014-08-14T04:26:01Z Zhivago: It's just EQL with a restricted domain.
2014-08-14T04:26:01Z kristof: And static analysis can optimize all those cases where you don't want to include number-checking code.
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2014-08-14T04:26:39Z kristof: Bike: I've just always thought (eq a b) to mean exactly the same thing as &a == &b
2014-08-14T04:27:04Z Bike: c semantics don't really reflect machine reality, y'know? why bring em in
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2014-08-14T04:27:15Z kristof: Because they reflect intention pretty well
2014-08-14T04:27:47Z kristof: "are my references the same"
2014-08-14T04:27:50Z Bike: evidently not, since you probably don't intend eq to mean "force these to be in memory"
2014-08-14T04:27:59Z Zhivago: C pointers are indexes into arrays. :)
2014-08-14T04:28:20Z stacksmith: One big array
2014-08-14T04:28:25Z Zhivago: krystof: Think about immediate values.
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2014-08-14T04:28:31Z kristof: Wrong kristof!
2014-08-14T04:28:47Z Bike: stacksmith: multiple, actually, referencing past array bounds is undefined
2014-08-14T04:28:50Z kristof: I don't feel guilty about having this nick. He's never in here, anyway.
2014-08-14T04:28:59Z Zhivago: How many bloody kristofs do we have?
2014-08-14T04:29:24Z kristof: 10, and incrementing
2014-08-14T04:29:25Z Bike: it's not like chris and cognates are uncommon names
2014-08-14T04:29:31Z drmeister: &a == &b is not quite (EQ a b) when you have multiple/virtual inheritance in C++.  What you want is dynamic_cast(a) == dynamic_cast(b)
2014-08-14T04:29:34Z stacksmith: Bike, the entire memory space is a big array...
2014-08-14T04:29:42Z kristof: drmeister: killjoy
2014-08-14T04:29:43Z Bike: stacksmith: not in C it ain't, technically
2014-08-14T04:29:50Z Zhivago: stacksmith: Not in C.
2014-08-14T04:29:58Z Bike: stacksmith: C can work fine on architectures with e.g. segmentation.
2014-08-14T04:30:15Z Bike: the fact that arrays are thought of as pointers is just a consequence of what's common in desktop PCs, i guess.
2014-08-14T04:30:16Z Zhivago: stacksmith: Which is why char c[3]; c - 1 has an undefined value.
2014-08-14T04:30:20Z Bike: thought of as integers, sorry
2014-08-14T04:30:25Z Bike: pointers are thought of as integers.
2014-08-14T04:30:34Z stacksmith: Ah, true.  Aliasing in segmented systems would make pointer equality an iffy proposition, unless a pointer is more than just an index.
2014-08-14T04:30:35Z Zhivago: By confused people. :)
2014-08-14T04:30:44Z cy: drmeister: there's a reason we're assuming C instead of C++
2014-08-14T04:30:53Z Bike: i find C confusing, no problem admitting that
2014-08-14T04:31:04Z kristof: I'm not sure why you do
2014-08-14T04:31:04Z Zhivago: It's probably all of the undefined behavior.
2014-08-14T04:31:14Z kristof: All of computer science, including Common Lisp, made sense when I learned C
2014-08-14T04:31:24Z Zhivago: Apart from that C is simple, although perhaps this is a good opportunity for my survey.
2014-08-14T04:31:27Z Bike: http://c-faq.com/struct/structhack.html
2014-08-14T04:31:32Z Bike: ok i'm done being offtopic now, sorry.
2014-08-14T04:31:33Z Zhivago: krystof: char c[3]; What is the type of c?
2014-08-14T04:31:53Z kristof: Zhivago: char *
2014-08-14T04:31:59Z Zhivago: krystof: Wrong.
2014-08-14T04:32:06Z kristof: No, you're wrong, I'm not krystof
2014-08-14T04:32:15Z stacksmith: Wtf?
2014-08-14T04:32:15Z Bike: yeah, arrays and pointers aren't the same.
2014-08-14T04:32:27Z kristof: Anyway, why am I wrong?
2014-08-14T04:32:28Z Bike: i ran into this when implementing a toy lisp in c the past few days, incidentally.
2014-08-14T04:32:29Z kristof: c is a pointer
2014-08-14T04:32:32Z Zhivago: What is sizeof c?
2014-08-14T04:32:34Z Bike: no, it's an array.
2014-08-14T04:32:45Z Bike: arrays are just treated as pointers in the vast majority of situations.
2014-08-14T04:32:48Z kristof: Zhivago: 3
2014-08-14T04:32:55Z cy: Zhivago: i wanna say 1
2014-08-14T04:32:56Z Zhivago: kristof: What is sizeof (char *)?
2014-08-14T04:33:00Z kristof: oh
2014-08-14T04:33:10Z kristof: Zhivago: usually 8
2014-08-14T04:33:13Z Zhivago: Bike: Rather, I'd suggest, thinking that an array evaluates to a value that is a pointer to its first element.
2014-08-14T04:33:15Z drmeister potayto potaato
2014-08-14T04:33:23Z Bike: i suppose you'd know.
2014-08-14T04:33:27Z Zhivago: Ok, so that should be enough to convince you that c is not a char *.
2014-08-14T04:33:33Z cy: Zhivago: does malloc() return a pointer or an array?
2014-08-14T04:33:42Z Bike: void*
2014-08-14T04:33:42Z stacksmith: void*
2014-08-14T04:33:55Z didi`: malloc() is not part of the standard.
2014-08-14T04:33:56Z Zhivago: cy: A pointer to the start of an array of char.
2014-08-14T04:34:02Z Zhivago: malloc is part of the standard.
2014-08-14T04:34:09Z didi`: It's not.
2014-08-14T04:34:13Z Bike: didi`: haha it's just part of the library, not semantics, i can see how you'd be confused though
2014-08-14T04:34:17Z |3b|: clhs malloc
2014-08-14T04:34:17Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for malloc.
2014-08-14T04:34:19Z Zhivago: Anyhow, I guess this concludes our "Is C confusing?" section.
2014-08-14T04:34:23Z Bike: yes, sorry.
2014-08-14T04:34:29Z Zhivago: The library is part of the standard.
2014-08-14T04:34:33Z |3b|: nope, not in the on-topic standard :p
2014-08-14T04:34:35Z stacksmith: On to C++ is confusing.
2014-08-14T04:34:41Z cy: stacksmith: no.
2014-08-14T04:35:07Z stacksmith: Silence on the wire.
2014-08-14T04:35:09Z cy: though i'll give C kuds for the fact that  n=n++;  isn't undefined behavior
2014-08-14T04:35:13Z cy: er
2014-08-14T04:35:19Z cy: C++, kudos
2014-08-14T04:35:39Z Zhivago: Just as well that you corrected that, but are you sure?
2014-08-14T04:35:57Z cy: Zhivago: in C it's undefined, in C++ it's defined
2014-08-14T04:36:18Z stacksmith: http://yosefk.com/c++fqa/
2014-08-14T04:37:05Z didi`: Bike: Ah, true. :-P
2014-08-14T04:37:41Z kristof: Zhivago: No, I still disagree. I think c is a pointer, but because the compiler can tell that it's meant to mark the beginning of an array, it knows "what you mean" when you call sizeof on it
2014-08-14T04:38:08Z kristof: That's a special case semantic decision for sizeof, not for arrays
2014-08-14T04:38:44Z cy: is *(c+1) the same as c[1]?
2014-08-14T04:38:50Z kristof: yes
2014-08-14T04:38:52Z kristof: always
2014-08-14T04:38:59Z kristof: c[1] is syntactic sugar for *(c+1)
2014-08-14T04:39:07Z kristof: and if it's not, kill me
2014-08-14T04:39:39Z Zhivago: kristof: You're wrong.
2014-08-14T04:39:44Z kristof: :(
2014-08-14T04:39:47Z kristof: C is confusing.
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2014-08-14T04:39:52Z Zhivago: kristof: A given type in C has a given size.
2014-08-14T04:40:06Z kristof: So arrays are distinguished types?
2014-08-14T04:40:08Z Zhivago: kristof: Yes.
2014-08-14T04:40:22Z kristof: That hasn't always been the case, has it?
2014-08-14T04:40:29Z Zhivago: Consider char c[3]; char (*p)[3] = &c;
2014-08-14T04:40:34Z Zhivago: Sure it has.
2014-08-14T04:40:43Z kristof: My mental model of C has been molested
2014-08-14T04:40:47Z kristof: I feel disgusting.
2014-08-14T04:40:53Z Bike: that'll teach you to say things about programming.
2014-08-14T04:41:35Z Zhivago: You can try sizeof (char[(rand() % 10) + 1]) if you like, just to get the full effect.
2014-08-14T04:42:28Z stacksmith: So what does C say about pointer equality on segmented systems?
2014-08-14T04:42:57Z Zhivago: You can compare them using == and !=, regardless of which array they point into. Otherwise they must point into the same array.
2014-08-14T04:43:07Z kristof: Bike: I quit.
2014-08-14T04:43:34Z didi`: So bit-vector are so flexible I can `subseq' them any way I want. But, given I'm working primarily with 8 bit data, I wonder if makes sense to use Xach's idea of representing data as an array of (byte 8) elements.
2014-08-14T04:44:13Z Zhivago: Probably.
2014-08-14T04:44:16Z Bike: you wouldn't be able to use the bit-* functions, but I've never used them anyway, so i don't know if that matters to you
2014-08-14T04:44:25Z Zhivago: bit-vectors are flexible, but they're also pretty expensive, iirc.
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2014-08-14T04:44:48Z didi`: Bike: I can use log* just fine.
2014-08-14T04:44:57Z didi`: Zhivago: Hum.
2014-08-14T04:45:07Z Bike: well i mean, you'll be doing the byte shuffling yourself.
2014-08-14T04:45:11Z Bike: guess you should just profile it.
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2014-08-14T04:45:16Z didi`: True.
2014-08-14T04:45:25Z stacksmith: Zhivago: how about pointers on a retarded 8086 with the segment registers simply multiplying by 16?
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2014-08-14T04:45:37Z Zhivago: stacksmith: What about them?
2014-08-14T04:45:45Z Bike: can we drop the C thing, I'm sorry I continued that
2014-08-14T04:45:45Z |3b| would use bitvectors until i ran into performance problems, then complain to implementation vendor :p
2014-08-14T04:45:58Z stacksmith: There is a nearly infinite number of ways to represent a pointer to the same object.
2014-08-14T04:46:23Z Zhivago: That's why C says 'into the same array'. Anyhow, continue this in ##c if you want to.
2014-08-14T04:46:23Z stacksmith: Well, not nearly infinite but large.
2014-08-14T04:46:42Z |3b|: since a good bitvector implementation should be working in chunks larger than 8 bits, it will probably be faster unless you have lots of operations specific to 8-bit chunks
2014-08-14T04:47:23Z Bike: mm, that's true, not like subword bitwise ops are going to help things, huh
2014-08-14T04:48:22Z Zhivago: Of course, then you need to do word-wise alignment.
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2014-08-14T05:01:20Z didi`: Is http://paste.lisp.org/display/143397 a fair comparison?
2014-08-14T05:01:50Z didi`: Oops.
2014-08-14T05:01:55Z Bike: think you missed something in the second line there
2014-08-14T05:01:55Z didi`: I messed up.
2014-08-14T05:02:01Z didi`: Bike: :-P
2014-08-14T05:03:57Z didi`: OK. Annotation added.
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2014-08-14T05:05:15Z Bike: it seems fair to me, but i don't know how well that reflects real life bit hacking
2014-08-14T05:05:44Z didi` nods
2014-08-14T05:07:34Z |3b|: map-into is faster than loop for the u-b 8 case here, but still slower than bit-xor
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2014-08-14T05:18:35Z didi`: |3b|: Here too. Also, cool function.
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2014-08-14T05:23:58Z drmeister: What's pretty print good for?   Now that I have a new STREAMS library - maybe it will work.   What is a quick test?
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2014-08-14T05:24:46Z |3b| uses the pretty printer for translating sexp-based DSLs to c-like languages sometimes
2014-08-14T05:24:48Z didi`: In the bitvector case, I just wished there were a better way of inserting an integer inside portions of a bitvector than by setfing each bit with (if (logbitp index integer) 1 0).
2014-08-14T05:26:10Z |3b|: yeah, fast/easy integer to bitvector would simplify a lot of things
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2014-08-14T05:29:37Z stacksmith: Is there a simple way to get the last element of a vector?
2014-08-14T05:30:11Z kristof: last
2014-08-14T05:30:33Z stacksmith:  Not a list, a vector
2014-08-14T05:30:45Z kristof: Oh! Misread
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2014-08-14T05:31:43Z drmeister: Here's my way: (elt vec (1- (length vec))
2014-08-14T05:32:13Z stacksmith: seems a little awkward.  I thought it was me.
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2014-08-14T05:33:27Z drmeister: Irreducible complexity.
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2014-08-14T05:34:17Z stacksmith: I can live with that.
2014-08-14T05:36:41Z |3b|: wrap it in a function if you do it often enough to care
2014-08-14T05:37:06Z |3b|: or use alexandria:last-elt
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2014-08-14T05:59:21Z cy: holy crap cffi IS as awesome as people make it out to be
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2014-08-14T06:06:20Z pnpuff: cy: are you trying to use two ABI-compatible languages?
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2014-08-14T06:08:03Z cy: pnpuff: are common lisp and C ABI-compatible?
2014-08-14T06:08:35Z Zhivago: CL and C do not have ABIs.
2014-08-14T06:08:55Z Zhivago: So the question is not meaningful -- you may be referring to implementations for certain platforms?
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2014-08-14T06:30:12Z zRecursive: Fiddling with MAXIMA makes me trust CL CAN create wonderful software :)
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2014-08-14T06:31:48Z Zhivago: So can brainfuck.
2014-08-14T06:31:57Z Zhivago: Can is not a particularly useful word here.
2014-08-14T06:32:12Z H4ns: can programming languages create software?
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2014-08-14T06:32:41Z zRecursive: so it is worthy studying CL ...
2014-08-14T06:34:01Z zRecursive: Even if there are many "modern" languages i.e. Go, Clojure, Swift ...
2014-08-14T06:34:45Z loke: H4ns: ask the proponents of 4GL back in the 80's
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2014-08-14T06:38:22Z zRecursive: Sorry for my non-logical statements! I just feel CL is fun before i use Maxima. But now i am sure CL is practical.
2014-08-14T06:38:36Z pnpuff: zRecursive: I think maybe would be useful an integrated environment where you're able to program, add notes, plot graphs and so on
2014-08-14T06:39:01Z pnpuff: would be useful cl-notepad but some extension are required
2014-08-14T06:39:15Z zRecursive: hm
2014-08-14T06:40:09Z pnpuff: In order to able with something similar to Ipython or Mathemetica
2014-08-14T06:40:24Z pnpuff: *be able to work with
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2014-08-14T06:47:01Z pnpuff: zRecursive: sorry, cl-notebook :)
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2014-08-14T08:42:28Z joe-w-bimedina: how can I specialize on (unsigned-byte 8) in a defmethod param list?
2014-08-14T08:42:53Z joe-w-bimedina: or another equivelant to the cffi type uchar
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2014-08-14T09:11:11Z elderK: joe-w-bimedina: I figured you'd be able to do exactly that
2014-08-14T09:11:23Z elderK: ((name type) ........)
2014-08-14T09:12:10Z elderK: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/m_defmet.htm
2014-08-14T09:12:13Z joe-w-bimedina: I kinda got it figured out, weird thing is that with this defmethod params list: (defmethod push-back ((self std-vector-uchar) (val (eql '(unsigned-byte 8)))) if I put in a float I get "The value 1.0 is not of type (UNSIGNED-BYTE 64)."
2014-08-14T09:12:54Z elderK: That's not weird.
2014-08-14T09:13:11Z joe-w-bimedina: is that what its supposed to do
2014-08-14T09:13:19Z elderK: "float" is not an unsigned byte 64 :P
2014-08-14T09:13:25Z elderK: Float is a float.
2014-08-14T09:13:40Z joe-w-bimedina: but I said 8 not 64
2014-08-14T09:13:58Z elderK: 64bits.
2014-08-14T09:14:15Z elderK: but yes, taht is weird.
2014-08-14T09:14:16Z elderK: :)
2014-08-14T09:14:36Z elderK: does unsigned-bye 8 mean 8bits or 8 /bytes/?
2014-08-14T09:15:00Z joe-w-bimedina: are you saying unsigned-byte 8 is 64bit? ...not sure yet
2014-08-14T09:15:33Z joe-w-bimedina: and is that the right way to specialize on unsigned-byte 8?
2014-08-14T09:15:43Z elderK: aha.
2014-08-14T09:15:44Z elderK: joe-w-bimedina: It's bits.
2014-08-14T09:15:52Z elderK: you're right
2014-08-14T09:15:56Z elderK: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/t_unsgn_.htm#unsigned-byte
2014-08-14T09:16:42Z joe-w-bimedina: cool, as long as its correct.. thank you very much for taking the time to help me with that:)
2014-08-14T09:16:47Z elderK: I
2014-08-14T09:16:50Z elderK: 'm new to cL myself.
2014-08-14T09:16:53Z elderK: so I may be wrong myself.
2014-08-14T09:17:03Z elderK: phadthai:
2014-08-14T09:17:05Z elderK: AeroNotix:
2014-08-14T09:17:10Z elderK: :) Any chance yuo guys can help joe-w-bimedina ?
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2014-08-14T09:17:22Z joe-w-bimedina: yea it was my first eql specializer
2014-08-14T09:17:38Z elderK: I thought eql checked that hte object was the same as some object object.
2014-08-14T09:17:44Z elderK: not whether it was the same type.
2014-08-14T09:18:07Z joe-w-bimedina: I think eql can do any form
2014-08-14T09:19:08Z elderK: "The parameter specializer name (eql eql-specializer-form) indicates that the corresponding argument must be eql to the object that is the value of eql-specializer-form for the method to be applicable. "
2014-08-14T09:20:45Z elderK: "denotes a parameter specializer which satisfies the type specifier (eql object), where object is the result of evaluating form. The form form is evaluated in the lexical environment in which the method-defining form is evaluated. Note that form is evaluated only once, at the time the method is defined, not each time the generic function is called. "
2014-08-14T09:20:48Z elderK: :)
2014-08-14T09:20:53Z phadthai: my CLOS experience is limited as I usually avoid it unless hierarchical classes are necessary; but I think that you cannot specialize on types, only on classes
2014-08-14T09:21:29Z elderK: Sure you should be able to specialize on types.
2014-08-14T09:21:30Z elderK: *surely
2014-08-14T09:21:51Z elderK: joe-w-bimedina: Have you tried just deftyping (unsigned-byte 8) to something
2014-08-14T09:21:57Z elderK: then using that new type name as a specializer?
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2014-08-14T09:22:28Z joe-w-bimedina: well what I posted works,if that 64 bit thing is normal
2014-08-14T09:23:31Z elderK: yes but *why* does it work?
2014-08-14T09:23:53Z elderK: Zhivago: You around and able to dish out wisdom?
2014-08-14T09:23:53Z elderK: :)
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2014-08-14T09:25:06Z joe-w-bimedina: not sure, I wish it said 8 instead of 64 but if 64 is normal...
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2014-08-14T09:29:41Z elderK: joe-w-bimedina: That's the thing. I'm not sure if it *is*
2014-08-14T09:31:29Z joe-w-bimedina: I understand, maybe someone else will let us know, I have been going by if it works use it(with a dash of common sense added)
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2014-08-14T09:34:11Z elderK: joe-w-bimedina: " The consequences are undefined if the result of fully expanding a type specifier contains any circular structure, except within the objects referred to by member and eql type specifiers. "
2014-08-14T09:34:34Z elderK: that suggests it's okay in an eql type specifier.
2014-08-14T09:35:16Z joe-w-bimedina: funny thing is it just stopped working
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2014-08-14T09:41:48Z elderK nods
2014-08-14T09:41:51Z elderK: I'm doing some playing around right now
2014-08-14T09:41:56Z elderK: make-array
2014-08-14T09:41:57Z elderK: seeing what I get for various things
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2014-08-14T09:42:23Z joe-w-bimedina: me too, tried deftype and ...nada
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2014-08-14T09:46:31Z elderK nods
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2014-08-14T09:52:18Z elderK: joe-w-bimedina: phadthai seems to be right
2014-08-14T09:52:22Z elderK: it dispatches on classes
2014-08-14T09:52:26Z elderK: not raw types.
2014-08-14T09:53:12Z joe-w-bimedina: seems there should be some way to say the input has to be a uchar.
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2014-08-14T09:53:49Z elderK: 1) deftype
2014-08-14T09:53:50Z elderK: 2) etypecase
2014-08-14T09:53:50Z elderK: :)
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2014-08-14T09:54:25Z elderK: There's probably a way to do it that I don't know :)
2014-08-14T09:54:29Z elderK: so, if you find otu, be sure to share your solution!
2014-08-14T09:54:32Z elderK: I'd be interested
2014-08-14T09:55:08Z joe-w-bimedina: yea that is still a fast workaround, it doesnt matter as long as it works is my motto....will do:) thanks for all the attention to this matter
2014-08-14T09:55:40Z joe-w-bimedina: * that workaround is still fast
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2014-08-14T09:57:09Z elderK: np
2014-08-14T09:57:10Z elderK: :)
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2014-08-14T10:03:51Z elderK: joe-w-bimedina: You might find this interesting or useful? https://github.com/frodef/binary-types/blob/master/binary-types.lisp
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2014-08-14T10:05:41Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks, I'll check that out:)
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2014-08-14T13:41:15Z jangle: greetings all.  According to several things I've read about common lisp streams, authors tend to suggest that they can be used for communications with a device (keyboard, screen, whatever), but i'm wondering how to actually set up a second stream that is connected to, say, a buffer in emacs via slime or some such.
2014-08-14T13:41:28Z jangle: ultimately i'd like the flexibility of watching periodic text output of an ongoing process without cluttering up the repl or needing to make an explicit call to a logdump function in said repl
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2014-08-14T13:48:04Z pjb: jangle: In general implementations provide ways to create streams connected to OS objects such as pty, sockets, pipes, processes.
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2014-08-14T13:48:35Z jangle: pjb: thanks
2014-08-14T13:48:37Z pjb: For strange things such as an emacs buffer via slime, you can use Gray streams to implement your own class of streams.
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2014-08-14T13:50:00Z jdz: jangle: i guess you'd also need to look at SWANK to see if it has any way of initiating opening a buffer from the CL side
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2014-08-14T13:53:28Z jangle: pjb: the alternative is that the implementation can launch and write to an additional terminal window
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2014-08-14T13:54:13Z jangle: pjb: doesn't have to be an emacs buffer
2014-08-14T13:54:28Z oGMo: jangle: you _can_, but there's nothing more (or less) magical about what any given CL can do than anything else .. write an emacs mode to connect to your backend, or whatever
2014-08-14T13:54:47Z oGMo: use a CL webserver and dump output to that, etc
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2014-08-14T13:56:09Z oGMo: scriptl provides a frontend terminal client that connects to your lisp and provides stream output
2014-08-14T13:56:46Z oGMo: you have to connect from the terminal, but at some point you would anyway
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2014-08-14T14:03:09Z H4ns: jangle: you can also write to files and use auto-revert-tail-mode in emacs to follow the file's end.  you'll probably want to flush explicitly after each write (in any case, file or socket or whatever)
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2014-08-14T14:04:30Z jangle: H4ans: wow right
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2014-08-14T15:01:29Z joe-w-bimedina: When I create a pointer with foreign-alloc like this: (foreign-alloc :int :count 250000) at any index in the pointer that I mem-aref there is a zero. is it safe to assume when I create the pointer this way, everytime, it will be filled with zeros, if any number other than a zero gets in there it would ruin my program is why I ask?
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2014-08-14T15:02:41Z dlowe: joe-w-bimedina: if it's that important, you could just fill it with zeros
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2014-08-14T15:04:35Z joe-w-bimedina: it is faster if I can create it that way then by adding :initial-element 0 and if I can assume it is filled with zeros I will be able to write faster code
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2014-08-14T15:05:14Z oGMo: joe-w-bimedina: definitely not
2014-08-14T15:05:39Z oGMo: to the first, you can't assume that
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2014-08-14T15:06:47Z oGMo: you might call calloc or memzero, that's almost certainly faster than element-by-element setf
2014-08-14T15:07:20Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: if the malloc reuses old memory it might not be zero.  If it allocates new pages, then they're initialized by the system to a zero filled page with Copy-on-Write.
2014-08-14T15:07:26Z oGMo: (which is what foreign-alloc does)
2014-08-14T15:07:40Z pjb: So you definitely want to use a :initial-element, and then it probably will be slower.
2014-08-14T15:08:10Z oGMo: er memset with zero heh
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2014-08-14T15:09:41Z joe-w-bimedina: ok thanks for that info , yea that sounds a lot faster
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2014-08-14T15:20:23Z joe-w-bimedina: sorry, I got a call right when you were writing, I noticed calloc and mem-zero are not in cffi, what library are they in?
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2014-08-14T15:35:52Z Bike: don't use standard library allocation from cffi, just use foreign-alloc.
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2014-08-14T15:46:14Z oGMo: Bike: why?
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2014-08-14T16:15:25Z Bike: the whole point of cffi is smoothing over implementation differences. cffi ccl %foreign-alloc uses some mac thing, and abcl does jna, which doesn't even seem to have calloc. besides, calloc only doesn't call memset if it gets a new page or it can zero inline. do you really need to bypass the whole cffi machinery for a speedup that might not even be noticeable?
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2014-08-14T16:25:54Z oGMo: Bike: blah blah wrong
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2014-08-14T16:26:28Z Bike: thanks
2014-08-14T16:26:36Z oGMo: but, foreign-alloc is the only way to malloc CFFI-defined structures, and it's often convenient, but there _are_ often cases it's useful to use libc functions
2014-08-14T16:27:06Z JuanDaugherty: normally ffis are so you can get to general other binary bindings
2014-08-14T16:27:32Z JuanDaugherty: maybe the lisp culture has a special spin on that
2014-08-14T16:27:46Z oGMo: not really
2014-08-14T16:28:17Z JuanDaugherty: well it was a rhetorical/polite hypothetical
2014-08-14T16:28:17Z oGMo: if it's C abi that's what FFI is for, even if your lisp is basically C abi (e.g., ecl, i think)
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2014-08-14T17:38:51Z ahungry: anyone know what this error comes from
2014-08-14T17:38:53Z ahungry:  Symbol "CODE-TRACE-TABLE-OFFSET-SLOT" not found in the SB-VM package.
2014-08-14T17:38:58Z ahungry: when i attempt to start silme
2014-08-14T17:39:12Z ahungry: For some reason I see it happening in ~/.slime/fasl/2012-12-03
2014-08-14T17:39:20Z ahungry: even though I have 2014-xx-xx dirs in there
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2014-08-14T17:40:12Z |3b|: check for other copies of slime
2014-08-14T17:41:22Z |3b|: or update slime if you only have 1
2014-08-14T17:41:37Z ahungry: Thanks |3b|
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2014-08-14T18:02:55Z ahungry: Ok, got rid of my old copy and tried the elpa installed slime, it broke the slime-contrib things which were still attempting to be used, removed elpa and just git cloned the slime/slime github and all is well
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2014-08-14T20:18:40Z alpha-: in javascript I can do: function x () { ... somecode ... } and later do x.toString and I can see the readable source of the function; can I do something like this in Common Lisp? I.e. 1) (defun x () ...) and then see the code for x ?
2014-08-14T20:19:29Z Xach: alpha-: not usually.
2014-08-14T20:19:44Z Xach: alpha-: but function-lambda-expression might do it under some circumstances.
2014-08-14T20:20:27Z Xach: alpha-: it's more common to write the code into a file and then use the internal bookkeeping interface to look up function source locations given a function's name.
2014-08-14T20:20:37Z Xach: In slime, that's done via M-.
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2014-08-14T20:22:20Z Poenikatu: I've been looking at the FFI for Clozure CL and, apart from the lack of macros, I am impressed. How do I use g-signal-connect?
2014-08-14T20:22:37Z alpha-: thanks Xach
2014-08-14T20:22:48Z alpha-: looks like function-lambda-expression is working in my sbcl
2014-08-14T20:22:56Z alpha-: thats exactly what I wanted
2014-08-14T20:23:11Z rwiker: may not work for compiled functions, though
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2014-08-14T20:24:20Z rwiker: actually, that was a pretty stupid thing to say... I think all code is compiled in SBCL?
2014-08-14T20:24:57Z JuanDaugherty: no it isn't
2014-08-14T20:25:13Z Poenikatu: Is it possible to get the macros in an .ffi file into the .cdb files?
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2014-08-14T20:26:08Z Xach: rwiker: usually.
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2014-08-14T20:26:49Z resttime: Clozure CL's? why not use CFFI instead?
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2014-08-14T20:27:11Z resttime: it'll work across implementations
2014-08-14T20:27:51Z JuanDaugherty: rwiker, "compile" is ambiguous, has distinct meaning in lisp culture. The thing corresponding to general sense of compile would be to produce a fasl.
2014-08-14T20:27:59Z resttime: oh he already left...
2014-08-14T20:28:23Z rwiker: no, it doesn't.
2014-08-14T20:28:52Z rwiker: compile compiles individual forms; compile-file compiles files
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2014-08-14T20:29:40Z JuanDaugherty: right I'm saying compile-file corresponds to what's thought of as compiling outside lisp culture or others like it
2014-08-14T20:29:56Z alpha-: so function-lambda-expression will not work for functions in a .fasl ?
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2014-08-14T20:30:51Z didi: So I would like to announce that, after switching from bit-vectors to "byte-vectors," the "real world" code executes 2 times faster than before, contrarily to the previous naive benchmark. This is all.
2014-08-14T20:30:52Z Xach: alpha-: there are a lot of circumstances where it doesn't do much that is useful. i'm actually surprised you found it useful.
2014-08-14T20:31:05Z Xach: didi: cool
2014-08-14T20:31:19Z didi: Xach: Thank you for the byte-vector suggestion. :-)
2014-08-14T20:31:24Z Xach: no problem
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2014-08-14T20:31:35Z alpha-: Xach well I am inside a repl, and I fed it a function
2014-08-14T20:31:46Z alpha-: and it returned something that resembles the original source code
2014-08-14T20:31:53Z Xach: alpha-: cool.
2014-08-14T20:31:55Z alpha-: which is what was excepted
2014-08-14T20:31:59Z alpha-: expected
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2014-08-14T20:32:46Z Xach: alpha-: i would have expected NIL
2014-08-14T20:33:08Z Xach unrealistically low expectation in that case
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2014-08-14T20:34:54Z didi: Bike: Your suspicion was spot on.
2014-08-14T20:35:56Z Bike: which suspicion
2014-08-14T20:36:15Z didi: Bike: That the naive benchmark was naive.
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2014-08-14T21:14:41Z k-stz: how do you "cast" double-float to float?
2014-08-14T21:15:21Z Xach: k-stz: coerce or float are a few ways
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2014-08-14T21:15:59Z Xach: k-stz: e.g. (coerce 1.0d0 'single-float) or (float 1.0d0 1.0s0)
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2014-08-14T21:16:50Z k-stz: thx works
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2014-08-14T21:17:28Z k-stz: oh single-float has its own neat representation
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2014-08-14T21:17:59Z Xach: What prompted the question?
2014-08-14T21:18:25Z k-stz: filling some c-array with pi didn't work :)
2014-08-14T21:18:49Z |3b| thought s0 was short float, and f0 was single float
2014-08-14T21:18:58Z k-stz: must have diabetes *ba-dum-tss*
2014-08-14T21:19:48Z Xach: |3b|: oh
2014-08-14T21:20:17Z |3b| isn't sure anything aside from clisp distinguishes the two though
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2014-08-14T22:09:07Z Fade arrives in Montreal for ILC
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2014-08-14T22:18:01Z Xach: shish taouk!
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2014-08-14T22:20:36Z mrottenkolber: Hi
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2014-08-14T23:44:26Z enn_: I know I've done this before successfully: (trace foo :condition (= (sb-debug:arg 0) 3)). But now when I do that and run the function, I get an error: 'The variable SB-DEBUG::ARG-LIST is unbound.' Has something in SBCL's arg handling changed?
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2014-08-14T23:59:51Z |3b|: enn: looks like docs still say it should work
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2014-08-15T00:06:33Z Vivitron: enn: a guess, try recompiling with debug 3 then add the trace
2014-08-15T00:06:51Z enn: ah, I'll try that, maybe that's it
2014-08-15T00:08:33Z |3b| suspects it was broken in 1.1.16.5 or so. looks easy to fix, though no idea if that fix would be 'correct' or not
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2014-08-15T00:09:45Z |3b| supposes probably not given the changes, but still not too hard to fix
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2014-08-15T00:24:54Z endthefed: http://www.memefrog.com/albums/insanity-wolf/insanity-wolf-meme-00023.jpg
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2014-08-15T00:32:55Z Xach: Go away, gavino.
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2014-08-15T00:35:24Z endthefed: xach are you still mad at me? I said quicklisp was cool
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2014-08-15T00:36:05Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach
2014-08-15T00:36:07Z Xach has set mode +b *!*Minnie@*.socal.res.rr.com
2014-08-15T00:36:11Z endthefed [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (You are not welcome here.)
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2014-08-15T00:39:26Z Xach: In case you're confused, gavino has a long, long, long history of trolling #lisp and anywhere else he's allowed to stay for more than five minutes.
2014-08-15T00:40:22Z p_l: wow, gavino showed up again?
2014-08-15T00:42:36Z Xach: endthefed is gavino.
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2014-08-15T00:48:52Z p_l: yeah, just noticed. It's been ages
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2014-08-15T00:49:00Z p_l: or at least I haven't encountered him
2014-08-15T00:52:12Z Xach: a while, but less than a year, i think.
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2014-08-15T01:12:03Z joe-w-bimedina: is there any way to coerce a SB-SYS:SYSTEM-AREA-POINTER into a type I have defined with define-foreign-type here: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/54fb86306b132140e900 My translate-from-foreign for the type creates a a clos object with make-instance and all my defmethods can specialize on that, which I need to be able to do in my library(specialize on the object).  I can coerce the pointer with the make-instance like this: (make-instance 'c
2014-08-15T01:12:03Z joe-w-bimedina: v-dmatch :c-pointer a) but is there a faster way.
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2014-08-15T01:24:37Z didi: Interesting. The presence of a fill-pointer in the byte-vector impacts the performance negatively.
2014-08-15T01:25:40Z Xach: yeah, wicked.
2014-08-15T01:25:45Z Xach: that makes it non-simple.
2014-08-15T01:26:23Z didi: Oh well. No biggie. Just trying things.
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2014-08-15T01:36:09Z stacksmith: Is there a library for building text-mode applicaitons? I would like to display text (not even edit) from a datastructure, scroll around, search/filter, etc.  I considered making a major mode for Emacs, but would prefer sticking with CL.
2014-08-15T01:38:04Z phadthai: FORMAT supports tables and iteration, but there probably also are existing cl-curses or cl-ncurses bindings
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2014-08-15T01:38:28Z Xach: stacksmith: no library that makes it easy
2014-08-15T01:38:41Z Xach: stacksmith: it would be cool if someone did all the work of making  one, and then shared it!
2014-08-15T01:39:46Z stacksmith: Emacs is almost what I want, but having spent 10 minutes coding made me miss the comforts of Slime/SBCL/CCL
2014-08-15T01:39:57Z stacksmith: And it's ****ing huge.
2014-08-15T01:40:07Z Xach: slime was made to bring some of emacs's tools to CL
2014-08-15T01:40:13Z Xach: and it only got partway there!
2014-08-15T01:40:38Z Xach: (i never wrote emacs lisp to that degree, but iirc it was edebug in particular)
2014-08-15T01:42:08Z stacksmith: Maybe I should invest more time there.  I just got used to Slime pointing out exactly where the errors are.  It seemed a little more ambiguous in Emacs.
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2014-08-15T01:43:18Z Xach: You could make a cool text UI library for CL *and* get more familiar with emacs
2014-08-15T01:44:11Z stacksmith: You seem to have some thoughts about what a cool text UI library would look like.
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2014-08-15T01:47:47Z Xach: a key feature for me would be someone else writing it :~(
2014-08-15T01:48:40Z stacksmith: My initial thought was to build something like a graphics library.  You have a backstore that is a structured representation of text you want to display, and there is a viewport that renders it, clipping and all, to the display.
2014-08-15T01:49:43Z stacksmith: I don't think I've seen anything like that for text...
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2014-08-15T02:24:59Z stacksmith: Has anyone used cl-ncurses?  I am having problems getting the tests to run.  Seems like alien functions such as initscr are undefined.  Any suggestions?
2014-08-15T02:26:39Z Bike: I remember it not working in slime, but that's about it
2014-08-15T02:27:52Z stacksmith: Bike - didi it work without slime?
2014-08-15T02:27:55Z phadthai: stacksmith: is the related dev package also installed, if they're separate for your OS?
2014-08-15T02:27:58Z Bike: Yeah.
2014-08-15T02:28:12Z Bike: yeah, i think i needed an ncurses-dev from my distro.
2014-08-15T02:28:22Z stacksmith: phadthai: ncurses-dev installed.
2014-08-15T02:28:25Z phadthai: ok
2014-08-15T02:28:47Z phadthai: I've not used cl-ncurses so I have no other ideas currently
2014-08-15T02:28:55Z stacksmith: THere is a makefile(?) in the distribution that refers to glue.c file, which is not there. Hmm.
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2014-08-15T02:47:12Z stacksmith: cl-charms seems to be a better version of cl-ncurses.  However it does not work inside slime.  That is extremely problematic.  I wonder if it's possible to open an separate output window somehow...
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2014-08-15T02:59:12Z stacksmith: Is it possible to connect slime to an instance of SBCL or CCL running in a separate process (and with its own terminal display)?
2014-08-15T03:00:20Z Bike: Yeah. Start up sbcl or ccl wherever, and run swank:create-server
2014-08-15T03:01:49Z stacksmith: Bike, swank started at port:4005
2014-08-15T03:02:02Z Bike: right, now do M-x slime-connect 4005
2014-08-15T03:02:05Z Bike: is i think how it goes
2014-08-15T03:02:18Z Bike: in emacs, of course.
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2014-08-15T03:02:59Z stacksmith: Hah.  That worked, thanks.
2014-08-15T03:03:57Z stacksmith: But I'll bet if I run curses from REPL, it will still not work, even though the SBCL window is sitting there.  Well, I'll try anyway.
2014-08-15T03:05:01Z stacksmith: Fuck me - it works!
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2014-08-15T03:07:59Z kristof: No thanks.
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2014-08-15T03:20:11Z kristof: https://srclib.org/
2014-08-15T03:20:16Z kristof: The rest of the world discovered slime
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2014-08-15T03:42:05Z brucem: kristof: it is more of a (perhaps better) ctags than slime.
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2014-08-15T03:46:56Z kristof: True
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2014-08-15T04:00:39Z stacksmith: Given enough time, all languages and tools will turn into some weird, ad-hoc, buggy version of Common Lisp.  Stacksmith's 10th rule.
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2014-08-15T04:28:13Z joe-w-bimedina: is there a way to differentiate between nil and a CFFi type symbol like :int or :uchar in a cond statement, I dont really want to have a list of all the cffi types, just a 1 liner type of thing, symbolp doesnt work of course
2014-08-15T04:29:01Z pillton: (not (null object)) ?
2014-08-15T04:29:55Z joe-w-bimedina: ok one sec, found a tiny error
2014-08-15T04:30:06Z pillton: clhs keywordp
2014-08-15T04:30:06Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_kwdp.htm
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2014-08-15T04:30:48Z stacksmith: Isn't nil different from everything else implicitly?
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2014-08-15T04:31:55Z Bike: it's still a symbol.
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2014-08-15T04:32:26Z pillton: ... which is annoying.
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2014-08-15T04:33:04Z joe-w-bimedina: ok thank you, i got it figured out, but, great! keywordp
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2014-08-15T04:33:34Z pillton: I'd submit a request for cffi:cffi-type-name-p to the CFFI mailing list.
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2014-08-15T07:02:22Z joe-w-bimedina: I have a setf version of the @@@ method in this macro: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/c8659901223c87097476  How would I go about calling it inside the macro. The way I call it is (setf (@@@ object index) val).
2014-08-15T07:03:40Z Bike: you should really use more descriptive parameter names.
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2014-08-15T07:03:55Z joe-w-bimedina: i'll edit real quik
2014-08-15T07:05:18Z joe-w-bimedina: I edited, i and j have their mathematical meanings
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2014-08-15T07:10:31Z Bike: that's not remotely clear, like why would i be a keyword if it's an index
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2014-08-15T07:12:32Z joe-w-bimedina: well this macro calls about 20 different methods so there is some overlap, i could be a cffi type or an index
2014-08-15T07:12:57Z joe-w-bimedina: if it is a cffi type then it calls the mem-aref
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2014-08-15T07:14:40Z AeroNotix: with cffi how do I do a type alias ?
2014-08-15T07:14:52Z Bike: so it does two totally distinct things, huh
2014-08-15T07:15:30Z joe-w-bimedina: well it is a wrapper for std::vector.at and mem-aref
2014-08-15T07:15:54Z joe-w-bimedina: AeroNotix: in cffi (defctype object :pointer)
2014-08-15T07:16:18Z joe-w-bimedina: I can show a defmethod it dispatched if that would help
2014-08-15T07:16:23Z joe-w-bimedina: I can show a defmethod it dispatches if that would help
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2014-08-15T07:23:32Z AeroNotix: joe-w-bimedina: I want to alias a ctype to another ctype
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2014-08-15T07:24:39Z joe-w-bimedina: not sure how do that
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2014-08-15T10:10:51Z joe-w-bimedina: any ideas on the defmacro thing, should I change the example?
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2014-08-15T10:16:28Z cy: AeroNotix: what do you mean?
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2014-08-15T10:16:55Z AeroNotix: cy: what do *you* mean?
2014-08-15T10:17:15Z cy: AeroNotix: about type aliasing
2014-08-15T10:17:26Z cy: what do you mean when you say you want to alias one ctype to another?
2014-08-15T10:19:18Z AeroNotix: cy: I want one type to reference another. One library uses a type that I want to use in another library
2014-08-15T10:21:02Z cy: AeroNotix: like, typedef'd types?
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2014-08-15T10:26:59Z cy: AeroNotix: if you defined them with defctype don't they implicitly convert if they're the same type?
2014-08-15T10:27:16Z AeroNotix: I would hope so
2014-08-15T10:27:47Z cy: then i don't understand your question
2014-08-15T10:28:18Z AeroNotix: sorry, I'm incredibly hungover. I'll ask again late
2014-08-15T10:28:21Z AeroNotix: r
2014-08-15T10:28:41Z cy: k
2014-08-15T10:29:28Z joe-w-bimedina: is there any implementation independant way to retrieve the number of args supplied to a function?
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2014-08-15T10:31:38Z easye: joe-w-bimedina: No.
2014-08-15T10:31:48Z cy: joe-w-bimedina: for a function using &rest?
2014-08-15T10:32:02Z joe-w-bimedina: no , for any function
2014-08-15T10:32:36Z cy: joe-w-bimedina: i don't see how that would be particularly helpful, but not that i know of
2014-08-15T10:33:30Z easye: cy:  It is incredibly helpful for development tools.
2014-08-15T10:33:36Z joe-w-bimedina: ok, thank you, it was to save some time/speed when making error checks.
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2014-08-15T10:34:53Z cy: joe-w-bimedina: easye: wait, as in the number of args a function wants or the number of args actually supplied to a function, from inside the function call?
2014-08-15T10:36:22Z joe-w-bimedina: if someone enters 4 args to a function that only accept 3 I would like to be able to say invalid number of arguments: 4,  this would change bases]d on the amount of args needed/supplied
2014-08-15T10:36:32Z joe-w-bimedina: *based
2014-08-15T10:37:08Z cy: joe-w-bimedina: ah okay, i thought you wanted to do something like, in a function that accepts a variable number of arguments check how many arguments it was called with
2014-08-15T10:38:32Z easye: cy:  for "inside the function call" one would have to interrogate the stack.
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2014-08-15T10:39:15Z cy: easye: or check optional args and/or the length of &rest
2014-08-15T10:39:46Z joe-w-bimedina: it is a function that accepts a variable number and that what you suggested would be great to have, didnt want to use too much code because these are my speedy functions.  just like to use 1 IF max.
2014-08-15T10:39:57Z easye: The length of &rest would be portable.
2014-08-15T10:42:44Z joe-w-bimedina: yea trying not to have to use first second etc, to keep times down,  thanks for the help,on it:)
2014-08-15T10:43:01Z cy: joe-w-bimedina: not /entirely/ portable, but http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_fn_lam.htm
2014-08-15T10:43:42Z AeroNotix: joe-w-bimedina: are you benchmarking code that sees performance improvements when removing a single if?
2014-08-15T10:44:14Z cy: joe-w-bimedina: though it should be easy to test if the current implimentation does what's expected with that
2014-08-15T10:45:35Z joe-w-bimedina: just trying to always streamline, if I'm always keeping an eye on performance then I'll get a good end product
2014-08-15T10:45:55Z AeroNotix: What a waste of time
2014-08-15T10:45:56Z joe-w-bimedina: eg every little bit helps
2014-08-15T10:46:33Z AeroNotix: No, no it doesn't. You waste time writing things in optimized ways, possibly harming other things such as readability.
2014-08-15T10:46:49Z AeroNotix: Write it, get it working, make it beautiful, make it fast
2014-08-15T10:46:53Z AeroNotix: in that order
2014-08-15T10:47:14Z AeroNotix: Fapping about things like counting the length of a list is just ridiculous
2014-08-15T10:47:42Z cy: usually the only major performance improvements are from reworking algorithms anyway
2014-08-15T10:48:16Z joe-w-bimedina: I just cut alot of time doing that, you might be suprised? using foreign-funcall where applicable instead of defcfun has shaved alot of my run times for example, since it is a wrapper I need to keep a good eye on how "heavy I make things"
2014-08-15T10:49:08Z AeroNotix: Just a word of advice, of course. You're free to waste time however you like.
2014-08-15T10:49:30Z cy: joe-w-bimedina: define alot
2014-08-15T10:49:46Z cy: percentage-wise
2014-08-15T10:50:15Z joe-w-bimedina: I shave half off my run times for over 100 functions in the last 2 days
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2014-08-15T10:50:47Z AeroNotix: half of what?
2014-08-15T10:51:22Z joe-w-bimedina: using foreign-funcall in places where it can benefit is a real good idea, I so far test only for speed
2014-08-15T10:51:53Z AeroNotix: whatever, I don't care about this enough
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2014-08-15T11:30:46Z AeroNotix: Does any one know of a Lisp machine on display/in use in Europe I could go visit?
2014-08-15T11:31:41Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: you could visit emacs@host any time
2014-08-15T11:31:46Z wasamasa hides
2014-08-15T11:31:52Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: :)
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2014-08-15T12:27:38Z jackdaniel: is cliki.net down? or it's me?
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2014-08-15T12:31:07Z cy: jackdaniel: http://isup.me/cliki.net
2014-08-15T12:31:33Z jackdaniel: cy: tx
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2014-08-15T13:46:30Z Xach wonders how many are at ilc
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2014-08-15T13:49:07Z AeroNotix: 75
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2014-08-15T14:13:32Z oGMo: cliki's down ;/
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2014-08-15T14:14:50Z eudoxia_: i should take the time to make a better-looking CL site with a wiki of some kind
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2014-08-15T14:29:36Z AeroNotix: eudoxia_: I was thinking about that today too
2014-08-15T14:30:19Z eudoxia_: AeroNotix: i'm thinking something like Jekyll, with wiki articles written in Markdown
2014-08-15T14:30:31Z eudoxia_: all static, since there's no real need for an actual server serving anything
2014-08-15T14:30:36Z eudoxia_: and people edit articles in the git repo
2014-08-15T14:34:16Z AeroNotix: nice idea
2014-08-15T14:34:46Z eudoxia_: i mean, it's such a simple thing to do. there's no need to waste time implementing and maintaining a custom wiki just to be able to say "it's written in lisp!"
2014-08-15T14:35:09Z AeroNotix: sure
2014-08-15T14:35:23Z eudoxia_ will put his money where his mouth is, later today
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2014-08-15T14:37:08Z pnpuff: "made with secret alien technology!"
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2014-08-15T14:39:07Z AeroNotix: Do I need to do anything special when calling save-lisp-and-die with cffi code?
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2014-08-15T15:36:14Z Xach: AeroNotix: is 75 a guess or real info?
2014-08-15T15:36:27Z AeroNotix: Xach: guess
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2014-08-15T15:37:56Z Xach: ok
2014-08-15T15:38:00Z Xach: 75 would be pretty good
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2014-08-15T16:20:38Z Shinmera: Can anyone load the latest postmodern/s-sql (20140713) on SBCL 1.2.2?
2014-08-15T16:21:23Z didi: Uh, are we already on 1.2.2?
2014-08-15T16:21:27Z Fade waves
2014-08-15T16:21:37Z Shinmera: arch just upgraded me to that, so yes.
2014-08-15T16:21:47Z Fade: just registered at the ilc desk
2014-08-15T16:21:56Z Xach: Fade: hi
2014-08-15T16:22:02Z Fade: Hey Xach
2014-08-15T16:22:08Z Fade: are you here?
2014-08-15T16:22:10Z Xach: Shinmera: it built for me on sbcl 1.2.2
2014-08-15T16:22:13Z Xach: Fade: no, too ill :(
2014-08-15T16:22:18Z Fade: doh!
2014-08-15T16:22:23Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: just load it?
2014-08-15T16:22:31Z Shinmera: Xach: strange, I'm getting "illegal terminating character after a colon: #\^"
2014-08-15T16:22:46Z Xach: Shinmera: weird! what does the backtrace look like?
2014-08-15T16:23:13Z Shinmera: Xach: COMPILE-FILE fails on the s-sql.lisp file
2014-08-15T16:23:21Z Shinmera: Xach: So the backtrace is just ASDF stuff
2014-08-15T16:23:44Z Xach: I'd still like to see it, if you don't mind pasting.
2014-08-15T16:23:52Z Shinmera: sure, hold on
2014-08-15T16:23:53Z Xach: along with the condition display
2014-08-15T16:24:33Z Shinmera: http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view?id=5Z#
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2014-08-15T16:26:36Z Shinmera: What it's pointing at in the file is a keyword :^
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2014-08-15T16:29:42Z Shinmera: If I simply create a .lisp file with :^ in it and call compile-file on it it doesn't error on me so I'm not sure what's going on.
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2014-08-15T16:31:23Z Xach: Shinmera: is there any extra state in play? do you have a custom readtable? do you have the problem even in a sbcl started without your init files, just quicklisp loaded?
2014-08-15T16:31:37Z Shinmera: hold on
2014-08-15T16:32:24Z Shinmera: Pulling clean sources, restarting and clearing the cache made it work.
2014-08-15T16:32:38Z Xach: clean in what way?
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2014-08-15T16:33:01Z Shinmera: calling ql:uninstall and quickloading it again
2014-08-15T16:33:35Z Shinmera: not sure what was going on, I probably did something weird with my system somewhere
2014-08-15T16:34:10Z Xach: oh. yeah, that's a pretty odd error to get.
2014-08-15T16:34:21Z Xach: Fade: please be sure to have lunch/dinner with as many people as possible for me
2014-08-15T16:35:02Z Xach: and get some bagels. man, i wish i could go.
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2014-08-15T16:36:53Z Vivitron: Shinmera: I found a way to get the error message: (set-macro-character #\^ (constantly t) ()) then read :^
2014-08-15T16:37:14Z Fade: had dinner at Schwartz's last night
2014-08-15T16:37:27Z Shinmera: Vivitron: interesting that the macro character gets invoked at all.
2014-08-15T16:37:31Z Fade: I really missed the food here; it has been too long since I've been back.
2014-08-15T16:37:51Z Xach: Fade: did you gather some nerds to join you?
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2014-08-15T16:38:06Z Vivitron: Shinmera: something probably wanted t as the third s-m-c argument
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2014-08-15T16:39:37Z Fade: I'm here with my pal Tux, so we went together
2014-08-15T16:39:53Z Fade: between arriving and getting hungry I didn't have time to hunt down the nerds
2014-08-15T16:40:25Z Xach: good luck! these conferences are a too-rare opportunity to communicate with very high bandwidth. and hear stories people don't tell online.
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2014-08-15T16:40:27Z gsdfvu: warning
2014-08-15T16:40:27Z gsdfvu:  you may be  watched
2014-08-15T16:40:27Z gsdfvu: do usa&israel use the internet(facebook,youtube,twitter, chat rooms ..ect)to spy??
2014-08-15T16:40:27Z gsdfvu: do usa&israel use the internet 2 collect informations,,can we call that spying??
2014-08-15T16:40:27Z gsdfvu: do they record&analyse everything we do on the internet,,can they harm you using these informations??
2014-08-15T16:40:27Z gsdfvu: تحذير
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2014-08-15T16:40:36Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach
2014-08-15T16:40:41Z Xach has set mode -o Xach
2014-08-15T16:41:18Z Xach treasures past dinners with friends at various ILCs
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2014-08-15T16:42:05Z Fade: I'm resolved to be more socially gregarious than usual. :)
2014-08-15T16:42:20Z Fade: I'm sorry you aren't here. I was looking forward to buying you some beer.
2014-08-15T16:44:21Z Xach: me too. earlier this week i felt great and thought i might be able to pull off the trip after all. today i spent most of the day getting fresh meds and at the moment i am typing while lying down and waiting to fall asleep to get some rest...sucks.
2014-08-15T16:44:36Z Xach: but that means everyone there will have to have extra fun to make up for it! it is mandatory!
2014-08-15T16:45:58Z Fade: this is my first Lisp related conference
2014-08-15T16:46:22Z Fade: I'm looking forward to not having to explain my language choices. ;)
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2014-08-15T17:04:27Z AeroNotix: Do I need to do anything special when calling save-lisp-and-die with cffi code?
2014-08-15T17:04:42Z AeroNotix: When I create an image, then try to run it I get the following: https://gist.github.com/AeroNotix/981677b2b7bdfa629a3f
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2014-08-15T18:13:05Z AeroNotix: is it just me or is Cliki incredibly slow today
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2014-08-15T18:14:03Z Fermata: ==/w 20
2014-08-15T18:14:06Z Fermata: Woops/
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2014-08-15T18:28:48Z juanlas: are there SRFIs for common lisp?
2014-08-15T18:29:15Z p_l: juanlas: there was an attempt, not sure how succesful you could call it
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2014-08-15T18:34:07Z prxq: who operates cliki?
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2014-08-15T18:35:52Z kristof: There's an about section that has that information I thjnk
2014-08-15T18:37:15Z prxq: kristof: thanks, but the issue is that the server is not working properly
2014-08-15T18:37:30Z AeroNotix: prxq: concur
2014-08-15T18:38:49Z juanlas: so appearantly ansi is in new york city, i wonder if I can just walk in and buy a hardcopy of the lisp standard
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2014-08-15T18:40:43Z brown``: juanlas: I've heard you can order a paper copy, but it's expensive and you receive a fuzzy photocopy of the standard.
2014-08-15T18:41:00Z AeroNotix: * (ql:update-client)
2014-08-15T18:41:03Z AeroNotix: Updating from version 2012112500 to version 2014070400.
2014-08-15T18:41:08Z AeroNotix: yikes
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2014-08-15T18:47:19Z novemberist: hello everyone
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2014-08-15T18:47:55Z novemberist: would someone mind helping a programming beginner understand something?
2014-08-15T18:48:38Z Shinmera: Why don't you just ask your question
2014-08-15T18:48:55Z novemberist: okay
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2014-08-15T18:49:55Z novemberist: so i wrote a simple lottery program in cl that puts out 6 random unique numbers, each time the main function is called
2014-08-15T18:50:30Z novemberist: i then dumped an image file of that program with sbcl
2014-08-15T18:50:39Z jasom: and you get the same 6 numbers each time you run it
2014-08-15T18:50:48Z novemberist: exactly ;)
2014-08-15T18:50:58Z Shinmera: Probably because the random seed is dumped along
2014-08-15T18:51:05Z Shinmera: I would be guessing here
2014-08-15T18:51:05Z jasom: novemberist: this is because of how pseudo-random number generators work
2014-08-15T18:51:49Z novemberist: thanks
2014-08-15T18:51:49Z Shinmera: novemberist: Have a look at the CLHS entry for random and the see also entries at the bottom of it http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_random.htm
2014-08-15T18:52:02Z jasom: novemberist: start by reading this too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudorandom_number_generator
2014-08-15T18:52:10Z prxq: novemberist: which implementation?
2014-08-15T18:52:15Z novemberist: sbcl
2014-08-15T18:52:38Z jasom: novemberist: you should have a general idea of why PRNGs can do that and what a seed is; that article should get you started
2014-08-15T18:52:47Z prxq: i have this in my .sbclrc: (setf *random-state* (sb-ext:seed-random-state t))
2014-08-15T18:53:22Z prxq: seeds it from /dev/random or /dev/urandom (don't remember which one)
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2014-08-15T18:53:44Z novemberist: that's probably a bit much for a beginner to take in, i basically just wanted to know, if the problem was within my code
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2014-08-15T18:54:22Z prxq: in a way it is, because you are always using the same seed for the rng :-)
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2014-08-15T18:55:03Z novemberist: i think that is something i will care about once i'm a little more advanced
2014-08-15T18:55:18Z prxq: fair enough
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2014-08-15T18:56:33Z prxq: novemberist: programming an rng is also an interesting exercise
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2014-08-15T18:57:44Z novemberist: prxq: certainly sounds like it
2014-08-15T18:59:32Z novemberist: btw i love common lisp, i was amazed how intuitively i was able to write that (of course very simple) program without much knowledge of programming
2014-08-15T19:00:09Z jasom: novemberist: In the function you load on startup for the image just do (setf *random-state* (make-random-state))
2014-08-15T19:00:40Z novemberist: jasom: thank you, will try that
2014-08-15T19:01:46Z jasom: novemberist: I can give you enough to know what's going on by analogy; you can pretend that lisp has a table of a trillion numbers that are jumbled, and (random), rather than really giving you a random number reads an entry from that table and then moves forward one entry.  Since you saved an image that includes the current position in the table, you'll always get the same numbers.
2014-08-15T19:03:00Z novemberist: jasom: thanks, that's a very comprehensible explanation
2014-08-15T19:03:01Z prxq: novemberist: it is rare that a newbie isn't put off by the parenthesis. I congratulate you for the ability to look past them.
2014-08-15T19:03:43Z jasom: novemberist: in actuality it doesn't really have a table, it has some fancy math that generates numbers in a manner that looks random, but the effect is identical
2014-08-15T19:03:46Z novemberist: prxq: it's not abig deal with emacs (+ slime, paredit)...learning emacs was more off-putting i gotta admit ;)
2014-08-15T19:04:44Z novemberist: jasom: and what does (setf *random-state* (make-random-state)) do to bypass that behavior?
2014-08-15T19:05:23Z Shinmera: novemberist: A RNG uses a 'seed' to feed the function that generates random numbers. make-random-state changes that seed.
2014-08-15T19:05:35Z jasom: *random-state* is what stores the current state (in my example of a table, it would be the position).  (make-random-state) gives you a new state, in a way that tries to be different each time.
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2014-08-15T19:05:59Z jasom: I think sbcl asks the operating system for a random number; older implementations would use the current time (which would be different every time you run it)
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2014-08-15T19:06:48Z Bike: doesn't sbcl use its own mersenne twister
2014-08-15T19:06:53Z Bike: or am i out of date
2014-08-15T19:07:14Z jasom: Bike: (make-random-state) initializes from /dev/urandom I think
2014-08-15T19:07:20Z jasom: but yest it uses an MT I think
2014-08-15T19:07:22Z Bike: oh, yeah maybe
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2014-08-15T19:08:00Z Bike: yeah, it calls some os-random-state function.
2014-08-15T19:08:06Z Bike: random-seed i mean
2014-08-15T19:08:31Z jasom: novemberist: initializing from the current time was quite common, and I remember someone abusing that to do really well in nethack (an old-school dungeon cralwer RPG)
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2014-08-15T19:11:31Z novemberist:  thanks for all the information, really helps understanding the whole random numbers thing
2014-08-15T19:13:12Z novemberist: btw, is there a way to dum the image directly from the slime repl? i get some error about threads when i try that
2014-08-15T19:13:41Z Vivitron`: novembrist: I think you want (make-random-state t)
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2014-08-15T19:18:36Z jasom: novemberist: There are ways to get it to work, but I usually just dump from the prompt.  Basically you can't dump an image in SBCL if you have multiple threads running, and slime works best if you have multiple threads running.
2014-08-15T19:18:58Z jasom: novemberist: recently I've taken to using cl-launch to dump my images, as then I can do it easilly in a single command.
2014-08-15T19:19:34Z novemberist: jasom: thanks...it's not that much of a deal anyways to do it from a seperate sbcl instance
2014-08-15T19:20:09Z novemberist: i don't really have much need for dumping images right now anyways, i was just curious about the possibilities
2014-08-15T19:20:11Z jasom: novemberist: agreed
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2014-08-15T19:20:23Z Vivitron`: I do think a build script is the nicest solution
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2014-08-15T19:21:02Z novemberist: once i write something usefull, i will hopefully now much more about this stuff
2014-08-15T19:21:27Z novemberist: *know
2014-08-15T19:21:53Z novemberist: gotta go for now, thank you for all the help. see you later
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2014-08-15T20:13:45Z AeroNotix: is anyone using coleslaw? It doesn't seem to find my posts that I make. Do they need to have a specific file extension or something?
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2014-08-15T20:20:15Z redline6561: AeroNotix: Hi, I wrote coleslaw and am using it happily along with a few other folks.
2014-08-15T20:20:27Z redline6561: Your posts should have a ".post" extension. This is mentioned in the README.
2014-08-15T20:21:25Z redline6561: Not as clearly as it should be though. Sorry, my mistake.
2014-08-15T20:21:34Z AeroNotix: redline6561: well, this is what I have and the posts don't end up getting rendered
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2014-08-15T20:22:22Z AeroNotix: (and there's no mention of the .post extension btw)
2014-08-15T20:23:23Z AeroNotix: redline6561: any ideas?
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2014-08-15T20:46:40Z PuercoPop: AeroNotix: you try running in the repl  (discover (find-class 'post')) to see if it populates the *site* hash, some of the error reporting is not preceise. For example I just found out the config's repo-dir, etc all need a trailing slash.
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2014-08-15T20:48:16Z AeroNotix: PuercoPop: redline6561 messaged me in PM. Got it sorted. My :repo config item was pointing at the wrong thing.
2014-08-15T20:48:44Z redline6561: Yes, improved error reporting will be a definite focus for the next release ... as soon as I can find time to work on it. ;)
2014-08-15T20:49:04Z AeroNotix: No worries, right now I'm trying to figure out how to style it properly. Any tips would be appreciated
2014-08-15T20:50:05Z PuercoPop: redline6561: I'm working on using travis-ci to build it, I am working a draft for a more thorough user friendly documentation which I agree with AeroNotix that it is lacking with comparision to the documentation of how to extend it
2014-08-15T20:50:28Z AeroNotix: indeed, it'll happen though
2014-08-15T20:51:18Z PuercoPop: (i mean to build the blog in this case, so one could add to content just through a pull request in markdown)
2014-08-15T20:51:36Z AeroNotix: PuercoPop: if I want to override the built in style.css, where do I do that?
2014-08-15T20:51:40Z redline6561: PuercoPop: That's very true. I jotted some thoughts down about that here: https://github.com/redline6561/coleslaw/blob/basic-deploy/docs/hacking.md#real-error-handling
2014-08-15T20:51:59Z redline6561: PuercoPop: ha, that's an interesting idea :)
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2014-08-15T20:52:32Z redline6561: AeroNotix: it doesn't look like the current theme ("hyde") is being copied correctly...
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2014-08-15T20:52:49Z AeroNotix: redline6561: ok
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2014-08-15T20:53:00Z redline6561: http://zerolength.com/css/ returns 403
2014-08-15T20:53:14Z AeroNotix: redline6561: probably just a nginx issue
2014-08-15T20:53:46Z redline6561: Sounds likely. I like to keep mine on a subdomain. *shrug*
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2014-08-15T20:55:41Z didi: OK. Maybe discovering LOOP's `by' wasn't such a good thing. I keep using it for everything.
2014-08-15T20:59:15Z redline6561: PuercoPop: Ugh, those do expect trailing slashes. That should probably be fixed. Really, the next release should focus on making it as hard as possible for the user to break coleslaw. :-/
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2014-08-15T21:00:56Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2014-08-15T21:01:03Z decent: good evening indeed
2014-08-15T21:01:33Z redline6561: hey beach. how's sicl going?
2014-08-15T21:01:58Z beach: redline6561: Fine.  I will present some results Sunday here at ILC.
2014-08-15T21:02:23Z redline6561: Exciting! :)
2014-08-15T21:02:44Z beach: Let's hope the other participants think so too. :)
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2014-08-15T21:04:04Z PuercoPop:  Documenting which config slots are obligatory would be a good idea too. I found it by continuously failing to build it.
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2014-08-15T21:06:49Z PuercoPop: redline6561: btw what exactly are shouts? like a wall of cool links or more like a bibliography?
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2014-08-15T21:07:54Z jasom: beach: do you have documentation for which features are higher/lower in the heirarchy?  I'm implementing a lisp and could save some time from using sicl potentially
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2014-08-15T21:11:20Z PuercoPop: btw I just saw you want to do work on cli interface for coleslaw. I would recommend cl-launch, currently one can replace the post-recieve hook with something like this: https://gist.github.com/PuercoPop/b145de71f117556089db
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2014-08-15T21:37:21Z novemberist: my little lottery program now works as expected :)
2014-08-15T21:37:34Z didi: Go novemberist.
2014-08-15T21:38:51Z novemberist: anyone know why the output of my program to the terminal has a "%" symbol at the end?
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2014-08-15T21:41:33Z Shinmera: novemberist: you might be missing a newline
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2014-08-15T21:55:34Z redline6561: PuercoPop: sorry, got pulled away at work, about to head home. shouts aren't fleshed out. multipurpose tweet-like content type, preferably with support for oEmbed or something. so cool links and bibliography? :) I've been thinking more about how to expose a cli interface. will have a close look at cl-launch/your gist.
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2014-08-15T21:57:23Z redline6561: Example coleslawrc is insufficient. Getting started docs need overhaul in general, required config info a good idea. Off for the night for now. Cheers!
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2014-08-15T22:00:20Z jasom: novemberist: I would guess you missed a "~" in a "~%" for your format?
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2014-08-15T22:01:03Z novemberist: jasom: yeah, i was indeed missing a newline, already fixed it. thank you
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2014-08-15T22:33:21Z dkcl: Is cliki down or am I having local trouble?
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2014-08-15T22:34:34Z didi: dkcl: I can't access it either.
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2014-08-15T22:36:17Z PuercoPop: same here, since yesterday
2014-08-15T22:37:22Z didi: Oh, cool. I think I will use displaced arrays for the first time.
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2014-08-15T22:54:29Z jasom: didi: be aware they are slow on sbcl at least
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2014-08-15T22:55:25Z didi: jasom: Aww. Really? I was going to use them /because/ I thought they would perform better.
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2014-08-15T22:56:29Z didi: Not that I know I need the presumably performance boost. I just saw the opportunity.
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2014-08-15T23:07:57Z |3b|: displaced arrays potentially are displaced arbitrary number of times, possibly to arrays that might be resized, so they need extra indirections
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2014-08-15T23:31:17Z stacksmith: Good morning.  Pls help me figure out a type issue.  I have a simple structure called msg.  When I try this: (let ((x make-msg)) (if (not x) (print (msg-conent x)))) SBCL gives me a warning that Derived type of X is (VALUES NULL &OPTIONAL), conflicting with its asserted type MSG.  Can someone clarify this?
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2014-08-15T23:32:06Z |3b|: (make-msg)?
2014-08-15T23:32:07Z chu: Is that a direct paste of the code?
2014-08-15T23:32:28Z |3b| would expect an error about that though
2014-08-15T23:33:15Z |3b|: and if (NOT X) is true, X is NIL, so (msg-conent x) is probably an error
2014-08-15T23:33:46Z |3b|: since MSG-CONENT expects a MSG
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2014-08-15T23:34:32Z stacksmith: Oh, right.  Is there a not-null predicate?
2014-08-15T23:35:03Z stacksmith: Just x...
2014-08-15T23:35:53Z stacksmith: Duh.
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2014-08-15T23:36:57Z pjb: And I doubt there's any function named msg-conent, since conent is not an English word.
2014-08-15T23:37:31Z stacksmith: ypographical error.
2014-08-15T23:39:36Z |3b|: pjb: assuming correct spelling/grammar or a specific language from API developers seems like a bad idea
2014-08-15T23:40:39Z |3b|: particularly with easy access to symbol name completion
2014-08-15T23:41:06Z pjb: I would fire a programmer that makes consistently spelling errors…
2014-08-15T23:42:18Z pjb: The reason, is that bad spelling prevents easy grepping of sources.  This can lead to a lot of lost time for developers.
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2014-08-15T23:42:56Z |3b| isn't disagreeing with that
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2014-08-15T23:47:41Z stacksmith: I would not hire a programmer who actually can't spell 'content' while defining an interface and forces everyone to spell 'conent'.  However, in some corner of the universe, conent may be a jargon word unknown to pjb :)
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2014-08-15T23:48:50Z pjb: stacksmith: I said "doubt". This involves probabilities.  And I left it to the asker to see whether he still had a lot of bugs in his code.
2014-08-15T23:50:38Z stacksmith: Lighten up, dude, said the asker (with still a lot of bugs in his code).
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2014-08-16T00:05:24Z stacksmith: I am still not understanding what SBCL does with the narrowing of types.  For instance, (let ((namelen (1- (length name))))...).  If name is "", namelen is -1.  So later I do (if (or (<= 0 namelen)) (elt name namelen)) but the elt form reports an error. "derived value of namelen is (VALUES (INTEGER -1 -1) & OPTIONAL), conflicting with its asserted type (MOD 4611686018427387901).  The error goes away if I use < instead of <=
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2014-08-16T00:08:07Z |3b|: are you sure that matches the parens in your actual code? if so, why is the extra OR there?
2014-08-16T00:09:41Z |3b| gets that message from (or (<= ...) (elt ...)), but not from (if (or (<=...)) (elt...))
2014-08-16T00:09:46Z |3b|: doesn't change with < though
2014-08-16T00:09:54Z stacksmith: Tried to abbreviate, fail.  There is more code there.
2014-08-16T00:10:13Z |3b|: which is why trying to abbreviate is bad :p
2014-08-16T00:10:27Z |3b|: use lisppaste or something to show whole thing
2014-08-16T00:10:29Z didi: And pastes are good.
2014-08-16T00:10:51Z stacksmith: Sorry, don't have an account.  Will try again in a couple of minutes.
2014-08-16T00:11:19Z didi: stacksmith: There is no need for accounts.
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2014-08-16T00:18:34Z stacksmith: Great.  I have way too much crap in this function.  I'll isolate this case and post a lisppaste in 10 min.
2014-08-16T00:18:52Z didi: Take your time.
2014-08-16T00:19:59Z didi: Sometime I get an answer by myself, just by trying to narrow it down for a paste.
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2014-08-16T00:21:54Z |3b|: enn: did you ever get that TRACE stuff to work (or file a bug report about it)?
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2014-08-16T00:45:03Z alpha-: would putting every form on it's own line in a file be considered a good indentation style or bad ? something like http://paste.debian.net/115849/
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2014-08-16T00:46:21Z kristof: For mathematical expressions like that, I suppose you've increased readability
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2014-08-16T00:52:17Z ChibaPet: alpha-: having the operator alone is not generally expected
2014-08-16T00:52:22Z Xach: alpha-: i wouldn't put a newline after the + or - operators, personally.
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2014-08-16T00:59:46Z stacksmith: didi: like you said, found a stupid bug while isolating the case...
2014-08-16T01:00:29Z didi: stacksmith: ;-)
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2014-08-16T01:10:12Z stacksmith: Is there a loop option to collect only non-nil results?
2014-08-16T01:10:38Z fe[nl]ix: when x collect x
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2014-08-16T01:12:21Z |3b|: or WHEN x COLLECT IT
2014-08-16T01:12:43Z |3b|: in case X is more complicated than a variable access
2014-08-16T01:12:53Z stacksmith: |3b| Bingo.  x is the result of computation.
2014-08-16T01:13:36Z cy: and here i was always using for x= when x collect x
2014-08-16T01:13:54Z stacksmith: Can the WHEN coexist with a WHILE?
2014-08-16T01:14:06Z |3b| is probably more likely to make a variable, but sometimes that is inconvenient
2014-08-16T01:14:15Z |3b|: yes
2014-08-16T01:14:54Z |3b| doesn't think you can put the WHILE inside the WHEN, but before or after it is OK
2014-08-16T01:16:26Z Bike: you can do while x collect it, i'm pretty sure
2014-08-16T01:16:41Z |3b|: that stops when X is NIL
2014-08-16T01:16:52Z |3b|: also, i don't think IT works with WHILE
2014-08-16T01:18:25Z stacksmith: I have two things here.  loop is reading lines from a file, then I had "while line do (myfun...)".  Now I want to collect the result.  How would that look?
2014-08-16T01:19:06Z Bike: damn.
2014-08-16T01:19:17Z |3b|: while line collect (myfun ...) is fine, if you want it to stop at first NIL (which you probably do for READ-LINE, possibly not for READ)
2014-08-16T01:19:44Z |3b|: if you want non-nil results of myfun, while line when (myfun ...) collect it
2014-08-16T01:21:04Z stacksmith: Latter, collecting all non-nil results.  I'll give it a shot.
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2014-08-16T01:21:31Z |3b|: or (remove 'nil ...) around the whole thing if you are lazy :p
2014-08-16T01:22:09Z stacksmith: That irks me somehow.
2014-08-16T01:22:38Z |3b|: remove 'nil inefficient if you can avoid adding the NILs in the first place, so not really serious about that
2014-08-16T01:22:42Z |3b|: *is inefficient
2014-08-16T01:22:52Z |3b|: or maybe 'is less efficient'
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2014-08-16T01:24:04Z stacksmith: Now I feel like a real Common Lisp programmer.  (loop for line = (read-line stream nil) while line when (msg-parse line) collect it )
2014-08-16T01:27:10Z cy: |3b|: that reminds me of a mistake i made somewhat recently. i was collecting a bunch of numbers into a list and then sending it through delete-duplicates
2014-08-16T01:27:55Z cy: |3b|: switching to a bool array made it about 50x more efficient
2014-08-16T01:28:26Z |3b|: yeah, array or hash table are good for that depending on range of numbers
2014-08-16T01:28:50Z cy: |3b|: it was a small range of numbers but i was collecting a somewhat unreasonable amount of them
2014-08-16T01:30:50Z cy: like, all of them would be in [0,10000] but i was collecting millions of them
2014-08-16T01:31:50Z stacksmith: cy: how does a bool array help for storing integers?
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2014-08-16T01:32:19Z |3b|: it helps you track which integers you saw
2014-08-16T01:32:29Z cy: stacksmith: in that case, i only needed to know if each number occurred, i didn't care how many times they occurred or when
2014-08-16T01:33:06Z stacksmith: Got it.  You can even keep a count if needed.
2014-08-16T01:33:42Z stacksmith: Not in a 'bool' array of course.
2014-08-16T01:34:05Z cy: stacksmith: t and nil :P
2014-08-16T01:34:28Z cy: or if you wanted, bit vector
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2014-08-16T01:36:10Z cy: the only thing i really hate about common lisp is how many functions there are that as basically specified as "does this thing, or nothing depending on the implimentation"
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2014-08-16T02:07:43Z kristof: How many namespaces does common lisp have?
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2014-08-16T02:08:15Z kristof: Packages, functions, values, go-tags, classes... what am I missing?
2014-08-16T02:08:33Z kristof: Oh, types.
2014-08-16T02:08:53Z kristof: I think there's one more that I'm missing, so that would make CL a... Lisp-7. :P
2014-08-16T02:10:49Z |3b|: conditions?
2014-08-16T02:11:05Z |3b|: maybe restarts
2014-08-16T02:11:16Z kristof: No, those are objects.
2014-08-16T02:11:23Z kristof: Oh! Blocks.
2014-08-16T02:11:33Z kristof: Blocks have a separate namespace as well.
2014-08-16T02:12:07Z kristof: Oh, are types and classes in the same namespace? They might be.
2014-08-16T02:12:36Z kristof: Yup, they are.
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2014-08-16T02:15:48Z Bike: though you can't use find-class on a type.
2014-08-16T02:16:30Z Bike: restarts are objects but you can still name them and refer to them with names, so
2014-08-16T02:17:03Z kristof: Well by "those are objects" I meant that they reside in the value namespace.
2014-08-16T02:17:22Z kristof: Bike: Also, even if you can't use find-class on a type, that only means that it works on a restricted namespace of the type namespace. :P
2014-08-16T02:17:32Z kristof: (defclass integer () ()) will hopefully error
2014-08-16T02:17:53Z |3b|: well, names in CL package have extra restrictions regardless of namespace
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2014-08-16T02:21:17Z Bike: (deftype foo ...) (defclass foo ...) is probably an error or wahtever though.
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2014-08-16T02:24:21Z kristof: Is there a way to create your own... namespace? Not talking about packages.
2014-08-16T02:24:29Z |3b|: hash table?
2014-08-16T02:24:30Z kristof: The only thing I can think of is explicit variable capture in macros.
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2014-08-16T02:24:45Z Bike: hash table with your own find-whatever function, etc
2014-08-16T02:24:57Z Bike: can hack lexical information using symbol macros
2014-08-16T02:24:57Z kristof: Yeah, I suppose so.
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2014-08-16T03:13:54Z kristof: It was slow earlier.
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2014-08-16T03:14:13Z kristof: and it's not working for me
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2014-08-16T07:37:59Z namespace: In common lisp, how do I take a hex value such as #xFF and turn it into a binary value such as #*11111111
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2014-08-16T07:39:14Z namespace: Is there a built in feature for that or do I have to write it myself?
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2014-08-16T07:41:55Z H4ns: do you want a printed binary representation?  or do you want to access the individual bits of an integer?
2014-08-16T07:42:08Z namespace: The latter.
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2014-08-16T07:42:30Z resttime: (format t "~b" #xFF)
2014-08-16T07:42:30Z H4ns: look at ldb
2014-08-16T07:42:55Z H4ns: resttime: which would be the former.
2014-08-16T07:43:07Z resttime: oh whoops i was too slow
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2014-08-16T07:45:02Z namespace: resttime: No no. I'm actually looking to change bases here.
2014-08-16T07:45:14Z namespace: Base 16 to Base Six.
2014-08-16T07:46:04Z alpha-: parse-integer has :radix
2014-08-16T07:46:35Z namespace: Yeah I was just thinking about that. I don't actually need to do anything involving bits at all.
2014-08-16T07:46:38Z namespace: Thanks.
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2014-08-16T08:08:59Z adlai: clhs *read-base*
2014-08-16T08:08:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_rd_bas.htm
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2014-08-16T10:50:50Z AeroNotix: cl-ppcre changed without a version bump on their downloads page.
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2014-08-16T10:51:26Z AeroNotix: For packaged downloads where the file integrity is changed, this is somewhat annoying
2014-08-16T10:51:32Z AeroNotix: Quicklisp does this correctly
2014-08-16T10:51:47Z AeroNotix: ql.org/$date/$version/package.tar.gz
2014-08-16T10:52:03Z AeroNotix: this means also that historic downloads are available
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2014-08-16T11:03:38Z jackdaniel: is there ecl equivalent for to sb-ext:run-program ?
2014-08-16T11:04:39Z phadthai: ext:run-program
2014-08-16T11:05:10Z jackdaniel: phadthai: thank you :-)
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2014-08-16T11:21:41Z AeroNotix: http://zerolength.com/posts/Introducing-Lispkit.html
2014-08-16T11:26:11Z wasamasa: uhuh
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2014-08-16T11:29:44Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: so that's your project
2014-08-16T11:29:53Z AeroNotix: yupp
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2014-08-16T11:30:24Z wasamasa: time to port evil to it :P
2014-08-16T11:30:26Z wasamasa: or wait, no
2014-08-16T11:30:52Z wasamasa: just some convoluted keymaps
2014-08-16T11:30:55Z AeroNotix: yupp
2014-08-16T11:32:38Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: I'll talk in a sec, on phone
2014-08-16T11:33:08Z wasamasa: I thought it would be a natural thing to have since browsers aren't really modeless
2014-08-16T11:33:44Z wasamasa: and you can distinguish between passing input to a textbox/canvas element and interpreting the input for something else
2014-08-16T11:38:24Z novemberist: take a look at dwb for inspiration. a fantastic browser with vi-like keybindings
2014-08-16T11:38:50Z AeroNotix: novemberist: will do :)
2014-08-16T11:39:22Z novemberist: AeroNotix: looking forward to a browser written in common lisp though :)
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2014-08-16T11:41:41Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: pentadactyl is my current reference for a keyboard-driven browser
2014-08-16T11:42:02Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: ok, minus the part of it being slow at times
2014-08-16T11:42:36Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: since it's lots of js on top of firefox
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2014-08-16T11:44:27Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: lispkit will need *some* JS, for say highlighting links. But a lot of core functionality will be in common lisp and use the raw webview objects
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2014-08-16T11:44:44Z AeroNotix: Anyone that's interested -- watch it on GH or something
2014-08-16T11:45:03Z AeroNotix: so I can hopefully get input on changes I make
2014-08-16T11:45:08Z wasamasa: mhh
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2014-08-16T11:45:31Z wasamasa: I'm mostly hoping for it being more and to extend
2014-08-16T11:45:45Z wasamasa: since js is rather meh for that
2014-08-16T11:46:04Z novemberist: sure you want to use WebKit over Gecko?
2014-08-16T11:46:28Z AeroNotix: novemberist: are there any bindings to gecko in CL?
2014-08-16T11:46:41Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: so, I also was thinking about how to include cljs
2014-08-16T11:46:44Z novemberist: I heard WebKit developement is a little slow after google forked their own version
2014-08-16T11:47:00Z wasamasa: novemberist: I heard there is no decent binding to gecko
2014-08-16T11:47:01Z AeroNotix: novemberist: The featureset is pretty good as it is now
2014-08-16T11:47:04Z novemberist: AeroNotix: I don't know, but i'd be surprised if there weren't
2014-08-16T11:47:12Z AeroNotix: novemberist: a quik google indicates no
2014-08-16T11:47:14Z AeroNotix: quick&
2014-08-16T11:47:14Z wasamasa: novemberist: they used to recommend XUL, but don't do anymore
2014-08-16T11:47:24Z wasamasa: novemberist: which is what conkeror uses
2014-08-16T11:47:30Z AeroNotix: I tried with XUL, actually
2014-08-16T11:48:47Z AeroNotix: but I found the docs and programming "model" shit
2014-08-16T11:49:07Z AeroNotix: WebView is just a cffi library, which for the most part is easy to understand and extend
2014-08-16T11:49:30Z AeroNotix: I'm not set on it, the *idea* is what I want to implement. i.e. a Common Lisp based browser
2014-08-16T11:49:46Z AeroNotix: whether that ultimately is webkit or gecko or XUL is somewhat irrelevant
2014-08-16T11:49:48Z novemberist: i'm not a browser expert by any means, as a user i just experienced more problems with webkit than with gecko overall
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2014-08-16T11:50:40Z novemberist: AeroNotix: good luck with your project
2014-08-16T11:50:58Z novemberist: is there any broweser written in cl already?
2014-08-16T11:53:00Z AeroNotix: novemberist: there is, but they use their own renderer completely
2014-08-16T11:53:12Z AeroNotix: http://common-lisp.net/project/closure/
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2014-08-16T11:55:02Z novemberist: no news in 8 years though ;)
2014-08-16T11:55:38Z AeroNotix: exactly
2014-08-16T11:55:57Z AeroNotix: And f writing a rendered and all that crap
2014-08-16T11:56:01Z AeroNotix: renderer*
2014-08-16T11:56:14Z novemberist: also, keyboard driven is what we need :)
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2014-08-16T11:57:15Z AeroNotix: trudat, I really dislike using browsers simply because the input method is so divorced from the rest of my workflow
2014-08-16T11:57:36Z AeroNotix: I push more and more into emacs simply because it enforces a keyboard driven approach, though browsing is something it doesn't do well
2014-08-16T11:58:18Z novemberist: yeah, that's why i suggested dwb...it fits perfectly since i am primarily a vim user
2014-08-16T11:58:31Z novemberist: no need for the mouse ever
2014-08-16T11:58:38Z AeroNotix: I plan to make it easy to write vim/emacs style keybindings
2014-08-16T11:58:47Z AeroNotix: The way keyboard events are handled is like this:
2014-08-16T11:59:26Z AeroNotix: there exists a list of listeners, each one gets the keyboard event, one of the handlers can state that it now wants to grab all keys, eventually a string of events will trigger an event
2014-08-16T11:59:45Z AeroNotix: (or the ungrab keys combo is pressed, which resets the state for all event handlers)
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2014-08-16T12:00:02Z AeroNotix: currently I implemented emacs style, 'cause that's what I use
2014-08-16T12:00:13Z novemberist: i'm a programming beginner, so i can't really comment on that
2014-08-16T12:00:15Z AeroNotix: ok
2014-08-16T12:00:20Z novemberist: but it sure sounds reasonable :)
2014-08-16T12:00:22Z AeroNotix: imagine it like a state machine
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2014-08-16T12:00:40Z AeroNotix: new events are forwarded to each state machine, the FSM responds with the next state for the key event stream
2014-08-16T12:00:44Z JuanDaugherty: when ur a decemberist you'll if it was whack
2014-08-16T12:01:12Z Zhivago: So, which FSM wins?
2014-08-16T12:01:19Z AeroNotix: Zhivago: whichever grabs first
2014-08-16T12:01:30Z Zhivago: Then they're not forwarded to each machine ...
2014-08-16T12:01:42Z AeroNotix: Zhivago: they are when there's no grabbing activated
2014-08-16T12:01:52Z JuanDaugherty: *know
2014-08-16T12:02:08Z AeroNotix: Zhivago: the design is still in-flux, take a look around, show me what you think.
2014-08-16T12:02:11Z Zhivago: So, any input agent can hijack the system for-ever.
2014-08-16T12:02:13Z novemberist: JuanDaugherty: I sure hope so
2014-08-16T12:02:16Z AeroNotix: Zhivago: exactly
2014-08-16T12:02:22Z Zhivago: That sounds like a really stupid design. :)
2014-08-16T12:02:29Z AeroNotix: Zhivago: (which is how you'd want it with vim-style)
2014-08-16T12:02:45Z AeroNotix: insert mode would effectively mean perma-grab
2014-08-16T12:02:47Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: mhh, that sounds about right for implementing context switches
2014-08-16T12:03:12Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: how does vim implement "cancel combo" ?
2014-08-16T12:03:16Z JuanDaugherty could have been programming before novemberist's parents were born
2014-08-16T12:03:17Z AeroNotix: with emacs it's C-g
2014-08-16T12:03:27Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: hmm, depends on mode actually
2014-08-16T12:03:34Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: generally it's ESC
2014-08-16T12:03:44Z AeroNotix: hmm, ok. I need help with making it work for vim users
2014-08-16T12:03:52Z novemberist: JuanDaugherty: well...everyone has to start at some point, right?
2014-08-16T12:03:59Z Zhivago: Probably what you want is to have a stack of FSMs, of which only the top receives input.
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2014-08-16T12:04:14Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: I'd look at how evil does it
2014-08-16T12:04:17Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: each event listener has a set of cancel events, which override the FSM state and put it back into passive mode
2014-08-16T12:04:40Z AeroNotix: Is there a library people recommend for more formal FSMs? I just have some informal implementation of FSMs
2014-08-16T12:04:48Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: if you enable it, you can still use every other emacs binding which wasn't bound by it
2014-08-16T12:04:48Z AeroNotix: gen_fsm from Erlang is really quite nice
2014-08-16T12:04:49Z JuanDaugherty: novemberist, absolutely! ur on the right track in lang selection being here
2014-08-16T12:04:57Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: and it's mostly bypassed in its special emacs state
2014-08-16T12:05:05Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: I'll take a look
2014-08-16T12:05:19Z AeroNotix: Zhivago: I'm still playing around with the implementation/semantics
2014-08-16T12:05:29Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: so that means I can have modal editing/actions and occasionally do some C-x or C-c combo
2014-08-16T12:05:30Z AeroNotix: I want to make a more formal FSM implementation
2014-08-16T12:05:36Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: and cancel with C-g instead
2014-08-16T12:05:57Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: cool, will deffo check it out
2014-08-16T12:06:19Z novemberist: JuanDaugherty: thanks. i already feel much more comfortable with cl than i did when i tried to learn python some time ago
2014-08-16T12:06:19Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: I've made it unbind all non-inserting keys except ESC in insert mode
2014-08-16T12:06:25Z Zhivago: And then you can compose an FSM of some upper level to select an FMS to push under some condition, and that can then pop itself under some condition.
2014-08-16T12:06:53Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: nice! I'll need to add more commands to be able to have someone arbitrarily affect keymaps, but it's doable to do that
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2014-08-16T12:07:07Z AeroNotix: Zhivago: not sure if you missed my question but; is there a good FSM library you can recommend?
2014-08-16T12:07:12Z Zhivago: Nope.
2014-08-16T12:07:14Z AeroNotix: ok
2014-08-16T12:07:24Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: which gives me the ability to do M-f and M-b and all the paredit binds while inserting text
2014-08-16T12:07:26Z AeroNotix: I saw one for Clojure, looked good
2014-08-16T12:07:37Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: but the vim bindings if I'm in normal mode and do "coarser" editing
2014-08-16T12:07:53Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: I don't think you'd need that much control in a browser though
2014-08-16T12:07:55Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: Ah yes, at the moment, when not grabbing keys the usual text insert keybinds of the textarea are in effect. I want to completely override that
2014-08-16T12:09:49Z Zhivago: Although, I suspect that in your case, the FSMs are probably equivalent to tries.
2014-08-16T12:10:03Z AeroNotix: Zhivago: this is another implementation idea I had, too
2014-08-16T12:10:19Z AeroNotix: it'd be relatively easy to implement as well
2014-08-16T12:10:24Z Zhivago: In which case, the composition logic is straight-forward.
2014-08-16T12:10:49Z Zhivago: Now you can establish a top-level, and compose in hooks for sub-handlers, providing the hooks are composable.
2014-08-16T12:11:07Z Zhivago: And the whole thing is completely consistent and deterministic, rather than a random race for insanity.
2014-08-16T12:11:42Z AeroNotix: Indeed, I'm still experimenting. I'll look deeper into your comments
2014-08-16T12:11:51Z Zhivago: Good luck.
2014-08-16T12:12:07Z AeroNotix: Thanks
2014-08-16T12:12:18Z AeroNotix: not sure if that was sarcastic, but I'll err on the side of happy people :)
2014-08-16T12:12:51Z JuanDaugherty: novemberist, i'm pythong detractor (for comic relief, not srsly)
2014-08-16T12:14:55Z JuanDaugherty: it php, and Ruby are the frequent targets of the Wrath of Juan
2014-08-16T12:15:03Z AeroNotix: Rightly so
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2014-08-16T12:15:27Z JuanDaugherty: these latter two I call the Borat and Bruno of langs
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2014-08-16T12:16:19Z JuanDaugherty: *a detractor
2014-08-16T12:16:27Z novemberist: I wouldn't expect anything else in a lisp channel to be honest ;)
2014-08-16T12:16:40Z JuanDaugherty: well you should from me
2014-08-16T12:17:03Z JuanDaugherty: i deplore lang ghettos, I'm not championing lisp uber alles
2014-08-16T12:17:24Z JuanDaugherty: nor CL as a necessary choice for lisp
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2014-08-16T12:18:12Z JuanDaugherty: primus inter pares tho
2014-08-16T12:18:27Z novemberist: i'll just stick with it for now until i'm advanced enough to really make judgements
2014-08-16T12:18:41Z JuanDaugherty: good move
2014-08-16T12:20:13Z novemberist: writing cl code just feels pretty natural to me (coming from a non-mathematical background)
2014-08-16T12:21:35Z novemberist: would you consider cl a good language for processing and analysing natural languages?
2014-08-16T12:21:59Z JuanDaugherty: yes
2014-08-16T12:22:18Z novemberist: that's very good
2014-08-16T12:22:27Z JuanDaugherty: but a robust NLP app will likely not be limited to it
2014-08-16T12:22:44Z Zhivago: I would not consider it to be a particularly good language for modern NLP.
2014-08-16T12:23:04Z Zhivago: This is largely because modern NLP has moved from rule based systems to large statistical models.
2014-08-16T12:23:09Z JuanDaugherty: and it's by no means a default or especially common choice in existing NLP projects
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2014-08-16T12:23:29Z Zhivago: However, it is a very good language for 1980s NLP.
2014-08-16T12:23:56Z JuanDaugherty: a lot of NLP pkgs are straight c or c++ for obvious reasons
2014-08-16T12:24:17Z novemberist: my field are semitic/oriental languages largely...so i don't know if that makes a big difference
2014-08-16T12:24:27Z JuanDaugherty: it doesn't
2014-08-16T12:24:54Z JuanDaugherty: as far as computer implementation langs
2014-08-16T12:24:55Z Zhivago: Well, there isn't a coherent group of 'oriental languages'.
2014-08-16T12:25:13Z JuanDaugherty: it does of course as far as existing grammars, corpora and the like
2014-08-16T12:25:17Z novemberist: true... Arabic is my main field of interest
2014-08-16T12:25:25Z Zhivago: You have the Chinese, the Korean/Japanese, and the Indian, and then the gradations between them.
2014-08-16T12:25:26Z JuanDaugherty: i think he meant sinitic
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2014-08-16T12:25:49Z JuanDaugherty: *e
2014-08-16T12:26:25Z novemberist: i can't be bothered to learn c/c++ right now...so i'll see how far cl can get me
2014-08-16T12:27:45Z Zhivago: I guess that the more interesting questions are -- synthetic vs analytic grammar, and topic/subject/object composition, the boundary between morphology and grammar.
2014-08-16T12:27:47Z JuanDaugherty: in some fuzzy kind of way lisp or something like is the right choice because of it's model of computation, the reader, and so forth but it'll be hard cashing on that
2014-08-16T12:28:05Z JuanDaugherty: *cashing in
2014-08-16T12:28:20Z JuanDaugherty: *its
2014-08-16T12:28:31Z Zhivago: I think that the model of computation is nothing special, and the reader is irrelevant.
2014-08-16T12:28:48Z JuanDaugherty: you might also consider prolog, a lot more ready stuff in it
2014-08-16T12:29:03Z Zhivago: Prolog is particularly weak at large statistical models.
2014-08-16T12:29:10Z Zhivago: It's another good choice for 1980s NLP.
2014-08-16T12:29:17Z JuanDaugherty: but maybe a challenge if you're new to programming
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2014-08-16T12:29:53Z Zhivago: Just look for something that handles large statistical models well. :)
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2014-08-16T12:30:10Z JuanDaugherty: another thing I'd recommend is Naomi Sanger's NLP project
2014-08-16T12:30:25Z JuanDaugherty: linguistic strings project or something like that I think it's called
2014-08-16T12:30:32Z novemberist: i don't even know what exactly i want to do with it in the long run
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2014-08-16T12:31:22Z JuanDaugherty: *Sager
2014-08-16T12:31:50Z novemberist: preferably a set of tools that aid translators in certain ways
2014-08-16T12:33:33Z JuanDaugherty: in re what Zhivago is saying you should know there's controversy on that
2014-08-16T12:33:57Z JuanDaugherty: Chomsky and others have deplored the statistical approach as vapid, banal, a dead end
2014-08-16T12:35:09Z JuanDaugherty: e.g: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4290604
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2014-08-16T12:41:18Z Zhivago: Fortunately Chomsky is off talking about politics rather than shitting on linguistics further.
2014-08-16T12:41:36Z Zhivago: Just look at the damage he did to non-human linguistics when he was active in that field.
2014-08-16T12:43:01Z JuanDaugherty: you mean when he laid the foundations of generative grammars?
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2014-08-16T12:43:40Z novemberist: my first project will be attempting to write an input method that converts short latin strings to arabic characters, like in latex
2014-08-16T12:43:43Z JuanDaugherty: let's peck out that Promethesus's liver
2014-08-16T12:43:47Z Zhivago: When he decided that language was a magical fairy of uniquely human characteristics, built into the very structure of the human brain.
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2014-08-16T12:44:26Z Zhivago: He did a lot of useful things, but became increasingly detached from reality and attached to a theoretical framework instead.
2014-08-16T12:44:27Z JuanDaugherty: google does a decent job on arabic i chrome i believe
2014-08-16T12:44:35Z JuanDaugherty: *in chrome
2014-08-16T12:45:11Z novemberist: yes, but i want to make a non-browser based solution
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2014-08-16T12:45:44Z novemberist: gotta see how well cl handles unicode
2014-08-16T12:45:48Z JuanDaugherty: with aljazeera anyway (just checked)
2014-08-16T12:46:22Z JuanDaugherty: well i doubt they do any of that client side
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2014-08-16T12:46:32Z JuanDaugherty: i mean like zero of it
2014-08-16T12:46:54Z novemberist: yes, me too
2014-08-16T12:46:57Z Zhivago: Ah, Norvig summarizes it nicely: http://norvig.com/chomsky.html
2014-08-16T12:47:30Z p_l: JuanDaugherty: Google is also the ur-example of statistical translation
2014-08-16T12:47:41Z JuanDaugherty: that's right
2014-08-16T12:47:57Z JuanDaugherty: the controversy has been framed as google vs chomsky
2014-08-16T12:48:25Z p_l: these days it is, afaik, augmented with logical models, but the origin was pure stats
2014-08-16T12:48:30Z novemberist: google uses a large database of text corpora for their translator
2014-08-16T12:48:33Z JuanDaugherty: cause I guess Norvig works for google now?
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2014-08-16T12:49:15Z Zhivago: There's really no significant controversy. If you think there is, measure the rule based systems against the statistical ones.
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2014-08-16T12:49:30Z JuanDaugherty: which is one reason it sucks as translation, transliteration really
2014-08-16T12:50:04Z p_l: arguably the derision towards statistical method helped bury AI in general
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2014-08-16T12:50:22Z JuanDaugherty: but since you (novemberist) have stated transliteration is your goal, Zhivago's direction is probably appropriate
2014-08-16T12:50:23Z novemberist: it works reasonably well among european languages, though
2014-08-16T12:51:10Z JuanDaugherty: the dread winter, this is what caused that:
2014-08-16T12:51:13Z JuanDaugherty: $$$$$$
2014-08-16T12:51:14Z novemberist: JuanDaugherty: it's at least a short-term goal, yes
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2014-08-16T12:51:28Z Zhivago: Generally transliteration is rule based and involves no inference.
2014-08-16T12:52:00Z Zhivago: Unless you're trying to do something like 'construct a word in language A that sounds like another word in language B for some speaker of some dialect".
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2014-08-16T12:53:15Z novemberist: no, it's really just intended to convert between different scripts for convenience
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2014-08-16T12:53:49Z novemberist: no attempt to translate anything for people that don't speak either language
2014-08-16T12:56:24Z Zhivago: In which case, you want a simple, deterministic rule set.
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2014-08-16T12:56:38Z Zhivago: (of course, this has nothing to do with NLP)
2014-08-16T12:57:09Z novemberist: yeah, i'm going to basically try to mimic arablatex/arabxetex' approach
2014-08-16T12:57:17Z novemberist: no, it hasn't
2014-08-16T12:57:36Z novemberist: i'm a beginner...i need a "simple" project first ;)
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2014-08-16T13:03:56Z novemberist: anyways, see you later guys :)
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2014-08-16T15:16:42Z pnpuff: Any free available CL IDL binding?
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2014-08-16T15:18:08Z H4ns: pnpuff: there is clorb, but i don't know how well it works.
2014-08-16T15:18:25Z H4ns: pnpuff: i used franz's orb years ago and it was fun.
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2014-08-16T15:45:04Z samebchase: Lisp Job: http://www.dwavesys.com/careers/senior-software-developer
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2014-08-16T15:50:58Z AeroNotix: they look like they're doing some cooool stuff
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2014-08-16T16:02:31Z guaqua: has anyone else had trouble running swank+slime from newest quicklisp with emacs 24.3?
2014-08-16T16:02:36Z puchacz: hi, has anybody used any pdf2html converter (and managed it from Lisp?)
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2014-08-16T16:03:19Z guaqua: when evaluating a form in slime-repl, i'm getting these weird "error in process filter: or: Not connected." errors in the messages buffer and nothing seems to happen
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2014-08-16T16:03:47Z guaqua: when i try to evaluate something trivial such as (+ 1 2) it works as it should
2014-08-16T16:03:54Z guaqua: but when i try to open a file or so, it fails
2014-08-16T16:04:44Z guaqua: i'll try installing the newest sbcl if that would help...
2014-08-16T16:05:30Z pnpuff: samebchase: quantum states are fragile and interactions with the environment lead to errors.
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2014-08-16T16:15:20Z k-stz: so cool that they're using sbcl :)
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2014-08-16T16:17:32Z dim: guaqua: check that your slime and swak versions are the same
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2014-08-16T16:21:07Z guaqua: well, they should be the same
2014-08-16T16:21:13Z guaqua: i'm using the ones from quicklisp
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2014-08-16T16:21:52Z guaqua: and it's not warning that they are different (like it does when you upgrade quicklisp on one system and not on another you connect to)
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2014-08-16T16:35:56Z JuanDaugherty: n
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2014-08-16T16:40:58Z slyrus: Zhivago: thanks for the norvig link
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2014-08-16T16:57:55Z puchacz: hi again, I want to have some long-running processes on the server (pdftk related) with hunchentoot to control them.
2014-08-16T16:58:13Z puchacz: is there any helper framework to help me control external programs on linux pls?
2014-08-16T16:59:55Z puchacz: also, I want a queue; if you upload a pdf, put it somewhere in the filesystem and on a queue to be processed
2014-08-16T17:00:19Z puchacz: while it all is a regular application level programming, maybe someone wrote something similar...
2014-08-16T17:01:20Z jackdaniel: puchacz: i have something somehow similar for creting thumbnails on gallery
2014-08-16T17:01:39Z jackdaniel: sec
2014-08-16T17:01:44Z puchacz: jackdaniel: sounds similar indeed. are you using imagemagick or simiar external program?
2014-08-16T17:02:45Z jackdaniel: yes
2014-08-16T17:02:55Z jackdaniel: http://ix.io/dUW
2014-08-16T17:03:00Z jackdaniel: it's just a scratch
2014-08-16T17:03:03Z jackdaniel: but works
2014-08-16T17:03:06Z puchacz: jackdaniel: thanks
2014-08-16T17:03:17Z jackdaniel: http://ix.io/dUW/common-lisp *
2014-08-16T17:03:18Z jackdaniel: yw
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2014-08-16T17:09:07Z shka: hi all!
2014-08-16T17:09:39Z jackdaniel: hey
2014-08-16T17:09:40Z puchacz: jackdaniel: are these bookmarkable links...?
2014-08-16T17:09:51Z shka: i'm wonder
2014-08-16T17:09:56Z jackdaniel: on ix.io ? I'm not sure
2014-08-16T17:11:09Z shka: how it is possible to create any abstract data type that could be used for the multithreading in the following way
2014-08-16T17:11:17Z puchacz: ok, nw
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2014-08-16T17:12:03Z shka: when data is not present in my variable, thread pauses
2014-08-16T17:12:34Z shka: but once i add anything to my variable, thread somehow resumes
2014-08-16T17:12:41Z jackdaniel: shka: sounds much like queue
2014-08-16T17:13:09Z shka: jackdaniel: yes, but i have no idea how to stab multithreading on lisp
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2014-08-16T17:14:00Z AeroNotix: shka: sounds like you want a queue
2014-08-16T17:14:08Z shka: most likely
2014-08-16T17:14:26Z AeroNotix: in Clojure they have channels for this, I'm sure CL has something similar
2014-08-16T17:14:35Z jackdaniel: shka: check link i gave puchacz , it uses lparallel channel
2014-08-16T17:14:48Z AeroNotix: is cliki *still* not working?
2014-08-16T17:15:06Z shka: jackdaniel: sorry, but i don't see any link
2014-08-16T17:15:20Z jackdaniel: http://ix.io/dUW/common-lisp , line 25
2014-08-16T17:15:21Z shka: i just joined
2014-08-16T17:16:08Z shka: jackdaniel: ok, thanks, this looks good enough
2014-08-16T17:16:41Z jackdaniel: shka: check lparallel.org for details of lib, it has many amazing imo features
2014-08-16T17:17:11Z shka: i will do this right now
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2014-08-16T17:18:12Z shka: weeeeeeeeeeeeeee multithreaded map
2014-08-16T17:18:16Z shka: :D
2014-08-16T17:18:18Z jackdaniel: :-)
2014-08-16T17:19:22Z jackdaniel: is there a portable way to invoke shell command?
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2014-08-16T17:19:32Z jackdaniel: portable in sense of common lisp implementations
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2014-08-16T17:23:56Z shka: ptree <3
2014-08-16T17:25:20Z shka: jackdaniel: who wrote this lib?
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2014-08-16T17:28:20Z easye`: shka: James Lawerence
2014-08-16T17:28:58Z shka: easye`: is he here?
2014-08-16T17:29:09Z easye`: No idea.
2014-08-16T17:29:12Z shka: heh
2014-08-16T17:29:22Z shka: he must be any awesome guy
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2014-08-16T17:33:34Z joe-w-bimedina: is there anyway to use an eql specializer after the &optional in a params list on a defmethod?
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2014-08-16T17:34:47Z Bike: nope, only required arguments are specializable.
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2014-08-16T17:37:47Z joe-w-bimedina: ok thanks, hoping I can ask you one more ?, I have a case statement with 25 switches where the first condition takes half as long to run as the last one, is there any way to speed up this case statement or to cycle through large amounts of switches faster
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2014-08-16T17:45:04Z wasamasa: well, uh, I usually use `let'
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2014-08-16T17:45:59Z joe-w-bimedina: was that to me, if so not sure I completely understand
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2014-08-16T17:47:53Z wasamasa: one uses `let' to establish temporary bindings to refer to
2014-08-16T17:48:03Z wasamasa: which means the computation is only done once
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2014-08-16T17:49:42Z joe-w-bimedina: well I have this case statement here: https://gist.github.com/ that i'm trying to speed up the bottom switches, how could a let help that exactly?
2014-08-16T17:49:58Z joe-w-bimedina: *https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/0b91881783a32123c4d4
2014-08-16T17:50:06Z joe-w-bimedina: sorry about that:)
2014-08-16T17:50:14Z shka: woooha
2014-08-16T17:50:21Z shka: lparallel really rox
2014-08-16T17:50:21Z wasamasa: dear $DEITY
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2014-08-16T17:51:37Z shka: joe-w-bimedina: do you really need this complex switch-case form?
2014-08-16T17:52:40Z shka: because it looks a bit ugly
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2014-08-16T17:53:58Z joe-w-bimedina: I think so I havve 25 matrix accessors to wrap and all take the same params list types and all. I thought I would use a case to operate on a flag passed to the function to differentiate which one to call, I do need them all to use the same name. weird to me that looks nice because the flags all get highlighte:)
2014-08-16T17:54:45Z mood: I wonder if a generic function with a bunch of EQL-specializers would be faster. I guess not
2014-08-16T17:55:28Z shka: joe-w-bimedina: not sure, but did you considered using clos?
2014-08-16T17:55:40Z shka: and multimethods
2014-08-16T17:55:42Z puchacz: jackdaniel: your example uses http://lparallel.org/ doesn't it?
2014-08-16T17:55:50Z shka: puchacz: yes
2014-08-16T17:55:53Z puchacz: thx
2014-08-16T17:56:06Z shka: heh, there is even pevery!
2014-08-16T17:56:13Z shka: and defpun!
2014-08-16T17:56:24Z shka: i love it
2014-08-16T17:56:42Z puchacz: :-)
2014-08-16T17:56:59Z joe-w-bimedina: I just figured out to do that but this has been a long standing question, fast switches  from the top to the bottom so i thought I would still ask,
2014-08-16T17:57:43Z joe-w-bimedina: oh multimethods that sound interesting
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2014-08-16T17:59:59Z shka: joe-w-bimedina: you didn't knew about it?
2014-08-16T18:00:50Z joe-w-bimedina: heard of them but is there a good beginner link you might have , searching google now
2014-08-16T18:00:50Z shka: joe-w-bimedina: well, cl has a very advanced (a lot better than java or c#) object system
2014-08-16T18:01:05Z joe-w-bimedina: thats good to hear:)
2014-08-16T18:01:31Z shka: it is not that well known because for some reason every book focuses on functional approach
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2014-08-16T18:01:59Z joe-w-bimedina: are they these (defmethod set- ((prop (eql :foreground)) (obj window)) ())
2014-08-16T18:02:36Z shka: joe-w-bimedina: well, to some extent multi-methods are like methods overloading
2014-08-16T18:02:51Z shka: but at the same time, cl is dynamic typed
2014-08-16T18:03:04Z shka: so they are completly different
2014-08-16T18:04:45Z cy: shka: when was the common lisp spec published?
2014-08-16T18:04:55Z joe-w-bimedina: i do love overloading, havent considered it from a dynamic typing approach
2014-08-16T18:05:03Z shka: cy: oh, i don't know
2014-08-16T18:05:03Z cy: shka: specifically the first version with CLOS?
2014-08-16T18:05:28Z shka: cy: iirc it was published with the cl standard
2014-08-16T18:05:37Z shka: but it is based on older systems
2014-08-16T18:05:48Z shka: namely flavors and loops
2014-08-16T18:06:22Z shka: cy: it is not a new thing if it is what you are asking
2014-08-16T18:06:48Z shka: joe-w-bimedina: it is not exactly overloading
2014-08-16T18:06:56Z shka: it is just a bit like overloading
2014-08-16T18:07:18Z cy: shka: nah was more thinking it's interesting that lisp is still so much "ahead" of newer languages
2014-08-16T18:07:34Z shka: but actually it is easier to understand
2014-08-16T18:07:38Z cy: shka: apparently the current spec was published in 1994
2014-08-16T18:07:51Z cy: and java was first released a year later
2014-08-16T18:07:57Z AeroNotix: http://www.amazon.com/Object-Oriented-Programming-COMMON-LISP-Programmers/dp/0201175894/ref=pd_rhf_eeolp_s_cp_1_05QN?ie=UTF8&refRID=101EP4JXQTJF3V4WHDCR any opinions on this?
2014-08-16T18:08:04Z joe-w-bimedina: I understand, thanks for the info on multimethods
2014-08-16T18:08:11Z shka: cy: it comes to me with no surprise
2014-08-16T18:08:49Z shka: current mainstream OO PL are based on the less powerfull models than smalltalk or clos
2014-08-16T18:08:53Z cy: shka: just seems silly. every programmer i know is somewhat aware of lisp, but nobody bothers with it because they can just use java or python or ruby
2014-08-16T18:09:01Z AeroNotix: cy: it's infuriating
2014-08-16T18:09:23Z AeroNotix: Whenever I mention lisp in circles that deem themselves good programmers, they laugh at it. Yet none of them really ever used it.
2014-08-16T18:09:27Z mood: AeroNotix: I've heard good things about that book, but I haven't read it
2014-08-16T18:09:32Z AeroNotix: mood: thanks!
2014-08-16T18:09:49Z shka: cy: well, i didn't knew about lisp since few months ago
2014-08-16T18:09:58Z shka: but after trying it, i love it!
2014-08-16T18:10:22Z shka: it is elegant, simple, powerfull
2014-08-16T18:10:28Z shka: it changed the way i think
2014-08-16T18:10:30Z PuercoPop: AeroNotix: it is a short,  well written introduction to CLOS. I found it very useful but if you are already experienced with CLOS it may not be of much use.
2014-08-16T18:10:40Z cy: shka: i've known about it for a few years bit didn't give it a try until about a year ago. i mainly used Go and Ruby
2014-08-16T18:10:50Z AeroNotix: PuercoPop: I'm not sure how experienced I am with CLOS. I can use it, but I think there's something I'm missing fundamentally.
2014-08-16T18:12:09Z shka: cy: well, and CLOS has a MOP
2014-08-16T18:12:25Z shka: basicly, what we witness right now
2014-08-16T18:12:35Z shka: is reinventing lisp
2014-08-16T18:12:55Z shka: all those new fancy things like dependency injection
2014-08-16T18:13:03Z shka: it was all done earlier
2014-08-16T18:13:09Z shka: (and better)
2014-08-16T18:14:16Z PuercoPop: AeroNotix: Well it goes to more detail than PCL, for example I learned that CLOS has a 'protocol' on how to modify running instances when a class is redefined. But its examples are simple, mostly to illustrate the point mostly around locks. It will mention how to define your own method combinations but provide no pedagogical example.
2014-08-16T18:14:22Z jackdaniel: "Every sufficiently complex application/language/tool will either have to use Lisp or reinvent it the hard way."
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2014-08-16T18:15:19Z shka: yes, MOP
2014-08-16T18:15:28Z kristof: "Common Lisp needs typeclasses!", I briefly thought.
2014-08-16T18:16:03Z shka: kristof: why?
2014-08-16T18:16:11Z kristof: And then I realized that multiple inheritance works just fine for what I want.
2014-08-16T18:16:12Z cy: i just wish common lisp was better specified. i mean the spec has a lot but a lot of things basically say "either returns this or nil depending on the implimentation"
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2014-08-16T18:16:45Z Bike: i can think of function-lambda-expression and that's almost it.
2014-08-16T18:16:49Z Bike: compiler-macro-function, maybe
2014-08-16T18:17:03Z cy: and there's no standard  exit  or  quit
2014-08-16T18:17:23Z jackdaniel: C-d ?
2014-08-16T18:17:27Z shka: i wish we would have a new standard
2014-08-16T18:17:32Z shka: with sockets
2014-08-16T18:17:40Z shka: and multithreading
2014-08-16T18:17:54Z mood: I believe usocket and bordeaux-threads solve that just fine
2014-08-16T18:17:55Z shka: heck, we can put lparallel in the standard
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2014-08-16T18:18:29Z shka: mood: yeah, but it would be better if it would be moved to standard
2014-08-16T18:18:47Z jackdaniel: shka: what's wrong with libraries?
2014-08-16T18:18:48Z shka: especially that it is already de facto standard
2014-08-16T18:18:55Z shka: jackdaniel: nothing
2014-08-16T18:18:58Z cy: mood: on a standard compliant implimentation with no extensions, they don't work, do they?
2014-08-16T18:19:12Z mood: cy: That's true
2014-08-16T18:19:22Z shka: having 20 years old standard is just very bad PR
2014-08-16T18:19:57Z PuercoPop: shka: I thought it's a feature, look at all this Python3 non-sense
2014-08-16T18:20:18Z cy: PuercoPop: there's a such thing as backwards compatibility
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2014-08-16T18:20:43Z JuanDaugherty: shka, new standard for what?
2014-08-16T18:20:52Z cy: JuanDaugherty: common lisp
2014-08-16T18:21:09Z JuanDaugherty thought it was ever changing
2014-08-16T18:21:19Z shka: not new, just updated
2014-08-16T18:21:21Z cy: JuanDaugherty: it's been how it is since 1994
2014-08-16T18:21:27Z PuercoPop: cy: Yeah that is why True + True returns 2 in CPython and in PyPy :D
2014-08-16T18:21:43Z cy: shka: oh has it updated?
2014-08-16T18:21:54Z shka: cy: nooo
2014-08-16T18:21:54Z JuanDaugherty: cy, that's not my understanding but deferring to your wisdom
2014-08-16T18:21:57Z shka: sadly no
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2014-08-16T18:22:22Z JuanDaugherty: unless you mean "essentially" or sumthin
2014-08-16T18:22:39Z cy: JuanDaugherty: no it's apparently been in its current state since 1994
2014-08-16T18:22:46Z cy: which is the year i was born, coincidentally
2014-08-16T18:22:58Z kristof: C89 hasn't changes for 25 years.
2014-08-16T18:23:11Z JuanDaugherty: shit I'd had my copy of Ctl2 a couple of years by then
2014-08-16T18:23:21Z cy: kristof: that's why C11 is a thing
2014-08-16T18:23:25Z cy: and C99
2014-08-16T18:23:32Z jackdaniel: i think there would be problem with a) compilers, b) consensus, which libs are worth to include, c) backward compatibility, d) many people actually think cl is bloated
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2014-08-16T18:23:56Z jackdaniel: *already
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2014-08-16T18:24:10Z kristof: I think cl is bloated, for some value of bloated. :P
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2014-08-16T18:24:27Z mood: Yes, and then starts the debate about some operators needing a rename, etc
2014-08-16T18:24:30Z JuanDaugherty: for me those are not things, there's just current c++, I'm not that big a c/c++ partisan
2014-08-16T18:24:31Z cy: jackdaniel: it has some bloat, but genuinely useful things aren't really bloat
2014-08-16T18:24:36Z shka: kristof: only on windows VS :P
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2014-08-16T18:25:05Z jackdaniel: cy: what i mean, it would be pain to enforce new standard
2014-08-16T18:25:10Z shka: MS just did not bothered to update to the new standard
2014-08-16T18:25:14Z cy: jackdaniel: it always is
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2014-08-16T18:25:38Z cy: jackdaniel: afaik there still aren't any C++11 complient compilers
2014-08-16T18:26:08Z cy: jackdaniel: afaik there weren't any C++ compilers complient to the previous standard before the C++11 spec was published
2014-08-16T18:26:09Z kristof: God, who cares. Python doesn't even have a standard. You think Van Rossum consults the pypy team whenever he modifies the language?
2014-08-16T18:26:13Z shka: cy: g++ and clang are already supporing it very well
2014-08-16T18:26:18Z lgt joined #lisp
2014-08-16T18:26:20Z cy: shka: but not completely
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2014-08-16T18:26:52Z kristof: Someone tells me "oh, concurrency isn't standard in CL". Well, SBCL has lock free mailboxes, so who cares?
2014-08-16T18:26:58Z jackdaniel: cy: don't fix something ain't broken - c++ got worse each "upgrade" imo
2014-08-16T18:27:05Z shka: cy: so is for js in browsers :P
2014-08-16T18:27:30Z shka: jackdaniel: C++11 actually fixes quite few problems
2014-08-16T18:27:40Z shka: i especially like move semantics
2014-08-16T18:27:55Z shka: lambdas and decltype are also good
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2014-08-16T18:28:19Z shka: makes template programming a lot more pleasant
2014-08-16T18:28:26Z kristof: shka: the better approach is to get one or two implementations to jury rig a feature and then start a trivial-____ library.
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2014-08-16T18:28:59Z kristof: shka: like usocket. I don't complain about sockets because usocket exists.
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2014-08-16T18:29:51Z kristof: Oh! When kdbus gets a really solid release, someone (I do not volunteer) is going to have to replace usocket with uipc or something.
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2014-08-16T18:30:31Z jackdaniel: kristof: kernel dbus?
2014-08-16T18:30:51Z kristof: jackdaniel: that's one. Keep up with Linux plumbing!
2014-08-16T18:30:58Z kristof: *the one
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2014-08-16T18:32:59Z shka: moment
2014-08-16T18:33:08Z shka: dbus in the kernel?
2014-08-16T18:33:13Z shka: why?
2014-08-16T18:33:15Z kristof: Offtopic
2014-08-16T18:33:18Z cy: shka: because lennart
2014-08-16T18:33:20Z shka: ah ok
2014-08-16T18:33:33Z shka: that explains everything
2014-08-16T18:33:41Z kristof: shka: because zero copy data passing between programs is very hard right now.
2014-08-16T18:35:38Z cy: i still blame lennart
2014-08-16T18:39:16Z cy: how does clojure compare to CL?
2014-08-16T18:40:01Z cy: i've been meaning to try it out but also kind of avoiding it
2014-08-16T18:42:50Z shka: cy: i did not use clojure but i can repate others opinion
2014-08-16T18:42:55Z AeroNotix: cy: that's a pretty huge question
2014-08-16T18:42:59Z AeroNotix: cy: it totally depends
2014-08-16T18:42:59Z inklesspen: cy: good things: immutable datatypes by default, JVM integration. bad things: JVM integration.
2014-08-16T18:43:20Z shka: and lazy evaluation
2014-08-16T18:43:23Z kristof: cy: CL has OO programming constructs, more destructive, stateful functions, a wide variety of available control constructs, a very advanced condition/restart mechanism, native compilers, compiler macros, reader macros, and a standard.
2014-08-16T18:43:54Z AeroNotix: Clojure has a simpler object model, STM, JVM integration
2014-08-16T18:44:05Z shka: and lazy evaluation
2014-08-16T18:44:09Z shka: ^^
2014-08-16T18:44:15Z AeroNotix: shka: you already said that
2014-08-16T18:44:21Z shka: i know
2014-08-16T18:44:24Z cy: AeroNotix: he's emphasizing
2014-08-16T18:44:26Z shka: :D
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2014-08-16T18:44:45Z AeroNotix: I write clojure at work and the prevailing idea is to evaluate as soon as possible
2014-08-16T18:44:51Z kristof: shka: a simple shadow can make everything in cl lazy.
2014-08-16T18:44:55Z AeroNotix: because lazy evaluation leads to somewhat annoying edge cases
2014-08-16T18:45:08Z kristof: AeroNotix: and unpredictable performance.
2014-08-16T18:45:11Z shka: cy: my impression on the clojure is that more focused on functional programming and multithreading
2014-08-16T18:45:18Z AeroNotix: shka: on *concurrency*
2014-08-16T18:45:19Z pnpuff: even Haskell let is lazy
2014-08-16T18:45:34Z shka: AeroNotix: oh, right, sorry
2014-08-16T18:45:50Z shka: i have trouble spelling that word :D
2014-08-16T18:46:20Z AeroNotix: there are some cool features in Clojure that I quite like
2014-08-16T18:46:30Z shka: kristof: care to elaborate on a simple shadow statement?
2014-08-16T18:46:36Z AeroNotix: in macros, suffixing a symbol with # will create a scoped gensym for that symbol
2014-08-16T18:46:48Z AeroNotix: small thing, but I like it
2014-08-16T18:47:02Z kristof: shka: shadow defun to wrap everything in a thunk. Shadow eval to force everything. Have you never read SICP?
2014-08-16T18:47:06Z AeroNotix: the use of different types of brackets makes the syntax more parseable
2014-08-16T18:47:14Z shka: kristof: i did
2014-08-16T18:47:34Z kristof: It was a huge part of chapter 3.
2014-08-16T18:47:41Z shka: hmmm
2014-08-16T18:47:57Z shka: ok, now i remember
2014-08-16T18:48:18Z shka: but this is a bit to drastic for my taste
2014-08-16T18:48:24Z AeroNotix: whatever
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2014-08-16T18:48:35Z kristof: AeroNotix: unimpressed. The lack of reader macros mean CL can add all kinds of arbitray syntax, while clojure is stuck with whatever rich hickey finds palatable.
2014-08-16T18:48:56Z AeroNotix: kristof: sure. I don't see reader macros being used altogether that much, though
2014-08-16T18:49:19Z AeroNotix: Though you're right, you *could* replace certain things with reader macros, but the fact is that most people would be against it.
2014-08-16T18:49:21Z kristof: I use them all the time. :)
2014-08-16T18:49:33Z kristof: They're silly, then.
2014-08-16T18:49:44Z AeroNotix: kristof: but would the community adopt something that, e.g. replaces the outer bramckets on lambda lists with [ ] ?
2014-08-16T18:49:48Z kristof: AeroNotix: I showed you the #L reader macro from Arnesi, right?
2014-08-16T18:49:55Z AeroNotix: kristof: you did, I like it
2014-08-16T18:50:08Z AeroNotix: But that's not to say that the wider community would agree with me
2014-08-16T18:50:14Z AeroNotix: they would probably go as far as to call me an idiot
2014-08-16T18:50:18Z kristof: AeroNotix: who cares?
2014-08-16T18:50:25Z AeroNotix: kristof: I dunno. Just making a statement really.
2014-08-16T18:50:40Z AeroNotix: I don't personally see much point in talking about CL vs Clojure though
2014-08-16T18:50:49Z AeroNotix: they're actually vastly different and solve different problems
2014-08-16T18:50:56Z kristof: AeroNotix: brackets are stupid. I think they, and lisp-1'ness, make clojure hard to read.
2014-08-16T18:51:13Z AeroNotix: the fact that CL could implement everything Clojure could, is irrelevant since most Lispers wouldn't *want* to implement Clojure in CL
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2014-08-16T18:51:33Z kristof: Oh, I would. :( I do like their concurrency libraries. Cl's suck.
2014-08-16T18:51:35Z AeroNotix: kristof: I dunno, I find the different brackets a welcome change
2014-08-16T18:51:47Z AeroNotix: kristof: I was mostly meaning the syntactical elements
2014-08-16T18:51:51Z ejbs: I wonder if there are more Clojure devs than CL devs nowadays... At least in the free software/open source community
2014-08-16T18:51:56Z AeroNotix: ejbs: of course there are
2014-08-16T18:51:59Z kristof: Of course there are.
2014-08-16T18:52:04Z AeroNotix: oh SNAP
2014-08-16T18:52:05Z kristof: Have you been to a clojure conj?
2014-08-16T18:52:08Z ejbs: Is it really that obvious?
2014-08-16T18:52:09Z AeroNotix: I did!
2014-08-16T18:52:12Z ejbs: I haven't :(
2014-08-16T18:52:18Z AeroNotix: I was in Krakow the other month
2014-08-16T18:52:20Z kristof: It's obvious if you go to one.
2014-08-16T18:52:23Z AeroNotix: ~1000 people there
2014-08-16T18:52:27Z AeroNotix: from all over the place
2014-08-16T18:52:32Z AeroNotix: maybe more?
2014-08-16T18:52:41Z ejbs: And CL gets ~100?
2014-08-16T18:52:48Z AeroNotix: Dunno, seems likely
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2014-08-16T18:53:24Z jackdaniel is planning to attend cl conference next year :-)
2014-08-16T18:53:31Z jackdaniel: so ~101 ;D
2014-08-16T18:53:33Z kristof: AeroNotix: I keep up with all the videos posted from the conj's, and I only ever like the stuff hickey, baldridge, halloway, and nolen present
2014-08-16T18:53:43Z AeroNotix: kristof: Agreed
2014-08-16T18:54:04Z AeroNotix: It was weird seeing all them (except baldridge) together
2014-08-16T18:54:22Z kristof: Doesn't matter how many developers there are. You've got 6, 7 guys driving clojure technology and everyone's riding along
2014-08-16T18:55:08Z AeroNotix: I did hope when I heard the original announcements that it'd bring more people to CL
2014-08-16T18:55:20Z AeroNotix: I'm not sure if it did, or not. Could any one say/
2014-08-16T18:55:21Z AeroNotix: ?
2014-08-16T18:55:29Z kristof: It brought me here.
2014-08-16T18:55:34Z AeroNotix: cool
2014-08-16T18:55:45Z kristof: I can 100% credit it for that.
2014-08-16T18:55:47Z AeroNotix: So at least 1
2014-08-16T18:56:35Z kristof: Thought process was "macros are cool! Why do we have macros? Oh, because clj is a modern lisp. What's the old lisp? ...oh wow, there's nothing old about that."
2014-08-16T18:56:48Z shka: on topic
2014-08-16T18:57:19Z shka: does sbcl likes large concurrency slack?
2014-08-16T18:57:38Z AeroNotix: shka: was that an English sentence?
2014-08-16T18:57:53Z shka: AeroNotix: i hopes so
2014-08-16T18:57:59Z AeroNotix: shka: It was not.
2014-08-16T18:57:59Z shka: *hope
2014-08-16T18:58:10Z shka: :(
2014-08-16T18:58:14Z AeroNotix: try again
2014-08-16T18:58:27Z shka feels like he is back in the school
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2014-08-16T18:58:44Z AeroNotix: the sentence didn't make any sense
2014-08-16T18:58:49Z pnpuff: with the JIT compilers now Java is in the C-class or nearly so... regarding speed
2014-08-16T18:59:00Z kristof: Yeah, not true.
2014-08-16T18:59:09Z inklesspen: shka: 'slack' was probably the wrong word
2014-08-16T18:59:31Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2014-08-16T18:59:33Z AeroNotix: and likes, too
2014-08-16T18:59:52Z inklesspen: AeroNotix: sure, but that one was at least comprehensible.
2014-08-16T18:59:52Z pnpuff: optimizing compilers is the key to increase speed
2014-08-16T18:59:55Z shka: inklesspen: it is actually a proper term to describe number of threads/processes larger than a hardware support
2014-08-16T19:00:01Z AeroNotix: shka: stack?
2014-08-16T19:00:05Z shka: kinda like what happens in the erlang
2014-08-16T19:00:11Z shka: AeroNotix: slack
2014-08-16T19:00:15Z shka: not stack
2014-08-16T19:00:18Z AeroNotix: shka: I've never heard that term at all
2014-08-16T19:00:20Z inklesspen: shka: not in any usage i've ever seen
2014-08-16T19:00:26Z AeroNotix: and I'm an Erlang developer by day, so....
2014-08-16T19:00:44Z pnpuff: I don't know erlag at all
2014-08-16T19:00:47Z kristof: You're asking if sbcl performs well with a large number of threads compared to a smaller number.
2014-08-16T19:00:53Z pnpuff: *erlang sorry
2014-08-16T19:00:58Z shka: http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-3-642-00955-6_17
2014-08-16T19:01:02Z AeroNotix: pnpuff: keep it that way, retain your happiness
2014-08-16T19:01:09Z shka: search for "slack"
2014-08-16T19:01:13Z kristof: Does juggling 20 bananas take more effort than juggling 2?
2014-08-16T19:01:21Z pnpuff: I don't need it at the moment
2014-08-16T19:01:35Z inklesspen: shka: that doesn't mean it's the right term to use. the right term to use is the one that communicates your intent.
2014-08-16T19:01:43Z AeroNotix: shka: the term has seen very, very little use
2014-08-16T19:02:10Z shka: kristof: actually I'm asking what will happen if i create more threads than hardware can support
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2014-08-16T19:02:32Z AeroNotix: shka: Why would SBCL's threads be any different from another languages threads?
2014-08-16T19:02:36Z AeroNotix: and you need to be clearer
2014-08-16T19:02:46Z AeroNotix: Are we talking about bordaux threads (for example?)
2014-08-16T19:02:55Z AeroNotix: or one of the other myriad implementations
2014-08-16T19:03:00Z AeroNotix: or maybe some of the green thread implementations?
2014-08-16T19:03:01Z kristof: The operating system supports threads, not the hardware.
2014-08-16T19:03:02Z AeroNotix: Be specific.
2014-08-16T19:03:34Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2014-08-16T19:03:37Z AeroNotix: shka: CL does not standardize on any "user space" threading
2014-08-16T19:03:41Z AeroNotix: afaik
2014-08-16T19:03:58Z pnpuff left #lisp
2014-08-16T19:04:06Z AeroNotix: Not to mention that nothing else really comes close to what Erlang does in terms of scheduling
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2014-08-16T19:04:34Z kristof: That's not really true.
2014-08-16T19:04:35Z shka: AeroNotix: well, i was under impression that BT just abstracts internal implementation of sbcl or other common lisp
2014-08-16T19:05:04Z AeroNotix: shka: just because most implementations have extentions for threads does not make it a standardized feature of CL
2014-08-16T19:05:42Z shka: AeroNotix: can i get answer to my question, please?
2014-08-16T19:05:49Z AeroNotix: shka: ask it in English
2014-08-16T19:06:00Z inklesspen: i think shka is particularly interested in threads as they exist in sbcl
2014-08-16T19:06:09Z AeroNotix: What about them?
2014-08-16T19:06:43Z inklesspen: "actually I'm asking what will happen if i create more threads than [the OS] can support"
2014-08-16T19:07:00Z shka: AeroNotix: my CPU supports 4 hardware threads, what will happen if i will spawn 4000 threads using BT on the sbcl
2014-08-16T19:07:19Z AeroNotix: shka: each thread uses a stack space, so it'll use more memory
2014-08-16T19:07:30Z AeroNotix: when you run out of memory, it'll swap. When you run out of swap, well...
2014-08-16T19:07:31Z shka: what about context switching
2014-08-16T19:07:39Z jackdaniel: shka: if they use cpu your system will be unstable most probably
2014-08-16T19:07:40Z inklesspen: shka: hardware multithreading is not the same thing as OS threads, of course
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2014-08-16T19:08:10Z shka: inklesspen: yeah, but i basicly want to know what kind of model bt presents
2014-08-16T19:08:17Z AeroNotix: shka: just OS threads
2014-08-16T19:08:20Z AeroNotix: afaict
2014-08-16T19:08:32Z shka: oh, ok
2014-08-16T19:10:23Z AeroNotix: who needs poking to get Cliki working
2014-08-16T19:11:24Z shka: https://www.google.pl/search?q=concurrency+slack&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb&gfe_rd=cr&ei=UarvU8znBIieOs_CgLgG#channel=sb&q=%22parallel+slack%22&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&safe=off
2014-08-16T19:11:40Z shka is surprised that nobody knows that term
2014-08-16T19:11:43Z AeroNotix: <1M results is nothing
2014-08-16T19:11:44Z inklesspen: shka: 3130 results is not very many.
2014-08-16T19:11:54Z AeroNotix: inklesspen: I got 920l
2014-08-16T19:11:56Z AeroNotix: 920k*
2014-08-16T19:12:04Z inklesspen: "About 3,130 results (0.43 seconds) "
2014-08-16T19:12:09Z AeroNotix: hmm
2014-08-16T19:12:12Z inklesspen: looks like most of them are in academia
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2014-08-16T19:13:04Z AeroNotix: http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=concurrency%20slack%2C%20concurrency%20parallelism&cmpt=q
2014-08-16T19:13:29Z shka: inklesspen: well, i found that term in a book
2014-08-16T19:14:05Z AeroNotix: anyway, no-one cares. It's a shit term.
2014-08-16T19:14:09Z shka: AeroNotix: http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=concurrency%20slack%2C%20concurrency%20parallelism%2C%20sex&cmpt=q
2014-08-16T19:14:10Z AeroNotix: Let's move on
2014-08-16T19:14:10Z inklesspen: shka: the proper term to use is the one that accurately communicates your intent to the audience. since none of us had ever heard of 'slack' before, it was not the proper term to use.
2014-08-16T19:14:29Z shka: AeroNotix: now this is a proper scale!
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2014-08-16T19:18:29Z shka: AeroNotix: btw, did you tried lisp flavored erlang?
2014-08-16T19:18:33Z AeroNotix: shka: I did
2014-08-16T19:18:36Z AeroNotix: I think it's a great thing
2014-08-16T19:18:55Z AeroNotix: It doesn't (yet) have gensym though
2014-08-16T19:19:20Z AeroNotix: Robert is working on adding gensym. After our current project at $DAYJOB we're hoping to invest more time into LFE
2014-08-16T19:19:24Z shka: so it support macros?
2014-08-16T19:19:33Z AeroNotix: yes, but not gensym
2014-08-16T19:19:47Z AeroNotix: he is adding it though
2014-08-16T19:19:53Z shka: so it will be awesome
2014-08-16T19:20:00Z AeroNotix: hopefully :)
2014-08-16T19:20:44Z joe-w-bimedina: if you have a lot of overloaded methods using the same name , will that make them slower than just having a couple that use the same name
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2014-08-16T19:21:39Z AeroNotix: ugh
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2014-08-16T19:22:01Z Shinmera: methods perform at one lispunit regardless of how many there are.
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2014-08-16T19:22:26Z AeroNotix: I get three parens to the Lispunit and that's the way I likes it
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2014-08-16T19:22:39Z shka: joe-w-bimedina: i think that overloading is not a proper term here
2014-08-16T19:23:20Z joe-w-bimedina: ok thanks, trying to figure out why a method is twice as slow as the same regular function
2014-08-16T19:23:33Z shka: joe-w-bimedina: also, clos is highly optimized, so it is hard to talk about performance without benchmarks
2014-08-16T19:23:33Z Shinmera snickers
2014-08-16T19:23:40Z shka: ah, so you did a benchmark
2014-08-16T19:23:48Z AeroNotix: shka: don't get involved
2014-08-16T19:23:51Z AeroNotix: it's a waste of time
2014-08-16T19:24:07Z AeroNotix: I tried to convince him of the importance of doing science, but he's more than happy to microoptimize a
2014-08-16T19:24:20Z cy: AeroNotix: i was there for that
2014-08-16T19:24:53Z shka: joe-w-bimedina: don't be obsesesd with performance
2014-08-16T19:25:10Z TomRS: hi. who can give me some pointers on how to test if a list is contained in a second list? actually, I need to find out if a set is contained in a set of sets... this must return true, e.g.: (checkIfSetExistsInListOfSets '(1 2) '((4 3) (2 1)))
2014-08-16T19:25:11Z shka: if it works good enough, it is good enough
2014-08-16T19:25:26Z cy: TomRS: listp ?
2014-08-16T19:25:34Z shka: TomRS: oooooooooooh don't use camel case
2014-08-16T19:25:42Z shka: TomRS: it will bite you
2014-08-16T19:25:47Z cy: CHECKIFSETEXISTSINLISTOFSETS
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2014-08-16T19:25:55Z AeroNotix: CHECKIFSETEXISTSINLISTOFSETS-P
2014-08-16T19:25:58Z TomRS: shka: :) ok
2014-08-16T19:25:59Z AeroNotix: idiomaticize, bro
2014-08-16T19:26:08Z cy: AeroNotix: sorry
2014-08-16T19:26:23Z ejbs: TomRS: homework?
2014-08-16T19:26:23Z Shinmera: Should have a CHECKERFACTORY too probably
2014-08-16T19:26:25Z cy: AeroNotix: though that would just be SETEXISTSINLISTOFSETSP
2014-08-16T19:26:25Z shka: TomRS: usually we use foo-bar-baz names
2014-08-16T19:26:33Z AeroNotix: cy: it one :)
2014-08-16T19:26:46Z AeroNotix: I heard names-like-this was "hotdog case"
2014-08-16T19:26:54Z shka: AeroNotix: lol!
2014-08-16T19:27:04Z shka: i like the name!
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2014-08-16T19:27:10Z shka: anyway
2014-08-16T19:27:18Z cy: i name all of my my symbols using camel case wrapped in |
2014-08-16T19:27:19Z cy: :U
2014-08-16T19:27:27Z shka: TomRS: we have function for that
2014-08-16T19:27:43Z TomRS: cool
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2014-08-16T19:28:15Z cy: (member '(1 2) '((4 3) (2 1)) :test #'equal)
2014-08-16T19:28:20Z cy: or would you have to use equalp?
2014-08-16T19:28:26Z cy: i forget how equal works on lists
2014-08-16T19:28:34Z AeroNotix: cy: They wanted it to work on sets
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2014-08-16T19:28:47Z TomRS: no
2014-08-16T19:28:49Z AeroNotix: TomRS: you wanted set right?
2014-08-16T19:28:56Z TomRS: actually lists is better :)
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2014-08-16T19:29:21Z cy: AeroNotix: what's a set again?
2014-08-16T19:29:27Z AeroNotix: cy: unordered
2014-08-16T19:29:31Z cy: ah
2014-08-16T19:29:33Z cy: right
2014-08-16T19:29:34Z TomRS: AeroNotix: I just said sets, because I wanted ordering not to be an issue...
2014-08-16T19:29:35Z cy: those
2014-08-16T19:29:56Z AeroNotix: TomRS: well you could just write a predicate function which does unordered comparison
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2014-08-16T19:31:05Z TomRS: AeroNotix: ok.. should be possible :)
2014-08-16T19:31:26Z TomRS: AeroNotix: I could just sort the lists maybe
2014-08-16T19:31:57Z shka: uh, didn't we had a function like a superset?
2014-08-16T19:32:07Z shka: i think i seen it somewhere
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2014-08-16T19:33:35Z TomRS: crap, I dropped out...
2014-08-16T19:33:41Z AeroNotix: Nothing happened in between
2014-08-16T19:34:32Z TomRS: AeroNotix: thanks
2014-08-16T19:34:37Z AeroNotix: TomRS: nw
2014-08-16T19:35:23Z shka: hmmm
2014-08-16T19:35:28Z shka: i must imagine things
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2014-08-16T19:54:20Z shka: good night all
2014-08-16T19:54:32Z cy: TomRS: this should work http://bpaste.net/show/edDwFfAxZPH28I71QgJ0/
2014-08-16T19:54:33Z TomRS: shka: night
2014-08-16T19:54:37Z cy: but it's not particularly pretty
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2014-08-16T19:54:44Z TomRS: cy: thanks will try
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2014-08-16T19:58:45Z |3b|: (member '(1 2) '((4 3) (2 1)) :test-not #'set-exclusive-or) ?
2014-08-16T19:58:55Z |3b|: probably a bad idea for large sets though
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2014-08-16T20:00:15Z TomRS: |3b|: very short! :) I like it :)
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2014-08-16T20:01:06Z cy: |3b|: i don't think there is an easy way to do it with large sets
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2014-08-16T20:03:09Z |3b|: for larger sets i'd sort in advance, or use hash tables
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2014-08-16T20:03:54Z cy: i don't think presorting would be any more efficient than #'set-exclusive-or
2014-08-16T20:04:01Z cy: then again, it might be because lists
2014-08-16T20:04:19Z |3b|: depends on how many searches relative to changes to set
2014-08-16T20:05:19Z |3b| expects set-exclusive-or is probably O(n) so sorting would be worse if only sorting once or twice, but it probably allocates, so better constant factors comparing sorted lists if you search a lot
2014-08-16T20:05:35Z |3b|: and yeah, sorted arrays might beat lists due to locality as well
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2014-08-16T20:06:17Z |3b| wouldn't bother with any of this stuff until it was a noticeable speed problem though
2014-08-16T20:06:54Z cy: i honestly think i'd use a hash table for a set anyway
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2014-08-16T20:11:05Z TomRS: |3b|: http://postimg.org/image/6cjkjrk4t/ i didn't get yours to work
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2014-08-16T20:14:52Z mrottenk`: Good evening folks
2014-08-16T20:14:54Z |3b|: ((2 1)) is 'true' in lisp terms, if you need T specifically you can wrap it with (and ... T) or (not (not ...))
2014-08-16T20:15:39Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2014-08-16T20:16:15Z mrottenk`: Anybody care to test drive a web app I am working on (parenscript frontend, CL backend)?
2014-08-16T20:16:16Z mrottenk`: http://athens.mr.gy/
2014-08-16T20:16:48Z mrottenk`: If you wonder about the date/time format try e.g. 2014-08-12 and 2014-08-13
2014-08-16T20:17:11Z mrottenk`: and note I only have collected data since early 2014
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2014-08-16T20:18:55Z cy: TomRS: i had the same issue but i can't figure out why :/
2014-08-16T20:18:58Z |3b|: needs a button to recenter/full zoom the graph
2014-08-16T20:19:04Z resttime: mrottenk`, seems to work
2014-08-16T20:19:42Z stacksmith`: Is there any data for jan 2014? or feb?
2014-08-16T20:19:57Z mrottenk`: stacksmith`: feb should be there
2014-08-16T20:20:21Z resttime: and I think I got some spam from a bot for some reason
2014-08-16T20:20:24Z stacksmith`: 2014-02-01 - 2014-02-06 is blank...
2014-08-16T20:20:27Z mrottenk`: I restrict access to one week at once because otherwise it crashes the browser (all computing done there)
2014-08-16T20:20:45Z resttime: from a PM that is
2014-08-16T20:20:57Z cy: resttime: is it from erm, holdon i forget the nick
2014-08-16T20:21:25Z resttime: fary-sse (without the dash)
2014-08-16T20:21:27Z stacksmith`: Crashed my Firefox for 2014-02-06 - 2014-02-12.
2014-08-16T20:21:28Z mrottenk`: stacksmith`: there is data from at least 02-11
2014-08-16T20:21:54Z mrottenk`: stacksmith`: yeah sry about that, I do pretty stupid stuff there
2014-08-16T20:22:16Z cy: resttime: show gratis (solo hooy) --> ,link
2014-08-16T20:22:21Z resttime: cy yes
2014-08-16T20:22:28Z mrottenk`: the server just serves a list of articles, the browser does all the statistical analysis
2014-08-16T20:22:34Z cy: resttime: i've gotten that twice now
2014-08-16T20:22:43Z stacksmith`: Locked up tight.  Can't even close the window after dismissing 'unresponsive script.  Oh there it is.
2014-08-16T20:22:52Z cy: one last night and one toda
2014-08-16T20:22:54Z cy: y
2014-08-16T20:23:01Z cy: i hear thunder
2014-08-16T20:23:04Z cy: but there's no rain
2014-08-16T20:23:04Z TomRS:  cy: thanks for helping me out!
2014-08-16T20:23:06Z stacksmith`: Looks cool when it works!
2014-08-16T20:23:12Z resttime: I guess it really is a spam bot then
2014-08-16T20:23:21Z cy: TomRS: my solution gave you a compile error, you should be thanking |3b|
2014-08-16T20:23:23Z cy: :P
2014-08-16T20:23:31Z TomRS: AeroNotix: thanks to you too
2014-08-16T20:23:42Z TomRS: |3b|: of course: thanks a lot!
2014-08-16T20:23:55Z resttime: this worked 2014-02-06 - 2014-02-12 for me
2014-08-16T20:24:03Z resttime: though it did take a lot of processing and etc.
2014-08-16T20:24:25Z mrottenk`: yeah, I have't really figured out how to do a loading indicator
2014-08-16T20:24:40Z cy: so, does everyone here use emacs?
2014-08-16T20:24:48Z Fade: definitely not
2014-08-16T20:24:48Z mrottenk`: I can print "fetching data", but the "building context" never gets printed due to load
2014-08-16T20:24:55Z TomRS doesn't know how to use irc
2014-08-16T20:24:57Z TomRS: :)
2014-08-16T20:25:04Z cy: Fade: not everyone as in literally everyone, but the majority
2014-08-16T20:25:21Z cy: Fade: i know for a fact not EVERYONE does, because i don't
2014-08-16T20:25:24Z jaseemabid quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs))
2014-08-16T20:25:40Z TomRS has to leave for today and is very grateful to all the nice people here :)
2014-08-16T20:25:43Z cy: see jaseemabid even uses emacs for their irc client
2014-08-16T20:25:43Z resttime: emacs user here, also where can I report the spam bot?
2014-08-16T20:25:51Z cy: resttime: probably #freenode
2014-08-16T20:26:16Z mrottenk`: I use ERC
2014-08-16T20:26:21Z mrottenk`: its ummm okayish
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2014-08-16T20:27:05Z Fade: cy: some people are recalcitrant or masochistic and prefer not to use emacs. that is certain.
2014-08-16T20:27:18Z mrottenk`: always the sarcasm :p
2014-08-16T20:28:09Z TomRS: I checked a shortcut today to copy a line in emacs: C-a C-SPC C-e M-w  :D
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2014-08-16T20:29:29Z khax: !spam
2014-08-16T20:29:31Z khax: !uptime
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2014-08-16T20:29:37Z cy: the fuck
2014-08-16T20:29:51Z cy: TomRS: nice. of course in vim that's just yyp
2014-08-16T20:30:07Z cy: er, yy to copy, p to paste
2014-08-16T20:30:13Z resttime: that khax guy...
2014-08-16T20:30:24Z mood: I use emacs with Evil, best of both worlds
2014-08-16T20:30:35Z cy: mood: i've been considering doing this, actually
2014-08-16T20:30:37Z resttime: emacs + EVIL user as well
2014-08-16T20:30:54Z TomRS: cy: in eclipse I like CTRL+ALT+Arrow_down
2014-08-16T20:31:05Z cy: TomRS: what does that do?
2014-08-16T20:31:13Z mrottenk`: stacksmith`: So my desire was to be able to read the news more efficiently, dont know if it helps... but its fun to see the algorithm work, it fails on "the" obviously but a lot of sane nodes and edges are derived automatically. Kinda cool.
2014-08-16T20:31:24Z TomRS: cy: copy line to underneth cursor
2014-08-16T20:31:39Z cy: TomRS: why underneath?
2014-08-16T20:31:52Z cy: or do you mean the line the cursor is on?
2014-08-16T20:31:55Z TomRS: cy: arrow_down :)
2014-08-16T20:32:07Z cy: that's... silly
2014-08-16T20:32:22Z TomRS: (or practical)
2014-08-16T20:32:33Z cy: also jyyk in vim
2014-08-16T20:32:43Z mrottenk`: fucking vim
2014-08-16T20:33:03Z mrottenk`: honestly I always thought if I need to type a lot fast and edit fast im doing my job wrong
2014-08-16T20:33:10Z TomRS: (everything is better than a combo for 4x2 buttons)
2014-08-16T20:33:30Z mrottenk`: I rather think for half a day and then suffer through notepad for an hour
2014-08-16T20:33:55Z mrottenk`: than remembering how do ESCn$2jkvnd these things
2014-08-16T20:33:56Z TomRS: mrottenk`: you might have a point there
2014-08-16T20:34:15Z AeroNotix: please, can we leave the editor-wars conversations
2014-08-16T20:34:19Z mrottenk`: :)
2014-08-16T20:34:23Z AeroNotix: take it to a PM, it gets really old
2014-08-16T20:34:27Z cy: AeroNotix: but it's not an argument yet! D:
2014-08-16T20:34:29Z AeroNotix: use whatever works for you, I don't care
2014-08-16T20:34:33Z TomRS: mrottenk`: but when I look at my teacher hacking down code in emacs, that is minimal, then I'm still impressed :)
2014-08-16T20:34:35Z whmark: there is no editor wars, emacs won
2014-08-16T20:34:37Z mrottenk`: just saying I don't know many emacs hotkeys either
2014-08-16T20:35:04Z mrottenk`: I just use it because I dont need to know any to use it
2014-08-16T20:35:05Z TomRS: AeroNotix: sorry, you are right
2014-08-16T20:35:10Z mrottenk`: and slime obviously
2014-08-16T20:36:16Z cy: slimv is... er.... decent
2014-08-16T20:36:16Z ggole quit
2014-08-16T20:36:57Z mrottenk`: I always hated it when my admin-colleague looked over my shoulder and we pair-fixed something. I'd use vi then and he'd always stare like I was the biggest idiot he ever witnessed
2014-08-16T20:37:17Z cy: eh, just use nano
2014-08-16T20:37:20Z TomRS: :)
2014-08-16T20:37:51Z cy: nano is the closest thing to emacs i can tolerate, because it actually tells me those four or five shortcuts i do need in a non-modal editor
2014-08-16T20:37:51Z mrottenk`: cy: strictly butterflies
2014-08-16T20:37:58Z cy: M-x butterfly ?
2014-08-16T20:38:21Z mrottenk`: :)
2014-08-16T20:38:29Z mrottenk`: forgot about that
2014-08-16T20:39:04Z mrottenk`: btw did anyone else totally party about that quantum computing post on planet lisp?
2014-08-16T20:39:14Z mrottenk`: I almost pissed my pants
2014-08-16T20:39:44Z AeroNotix: shit yeah
2014-08-16T20:39:45Z mrottenk`: "[...]hack like you’re channeling the Will of the universe itself. Because the future is here, now—the future is Quantum Common Lisp."
2014-08-16T20:39:53Z mrottenk`: daaaamn right!
2014-08-16T20:39:59Z AeroNotix: Almost feels like a troll, it's too perfect
2014-08-16T20:40:01Z resttime: oh wow thankyou for brining this to my attention
2014-08-16T20:40:11Z mrottenk`: loved it
2014-08-16T20:40:24Z mrottenk`: you must be a tiny bit crazy for having hope in this world
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2014-08-16T20:40:32Z cy: mrottenk`: last thing i heard about quantum computing was that it doesn't offer any major improvement over traditional computing in benchmarks
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2014-08-16T20:40:56Z mrottenk`: shhhh!!
2014-08-16T20:41:20Z mrottenk`: I had watched the "cybersecurity as realpolitik" talk by dan geer before
2014-08-16T20:41:28Z mrottenk`: which blew my mind
2014-08-16T20:41:44Z mrottenk`: and then I read that post... gold!!
2014-08-16T20:42:45Z cy: is ccl-logbot written in lisp?
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2014-08-16T20:42:57Z AeroNotix: wow, holy shit, cliki is working
2014-08-16T20:43:00Z cy: :O
2014-08-16T20:43:09Z mrottenk`: cliki down?
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2014-08-16T20:43:30Z jackdaniel: cliki up (:
2014-08-16T20:43:53Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2014-08-16T20:44:17Z AeroNotix: and it's faaaaaaast too, damn, faster than ever.
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2014-08-16T20:52:36Z cy: AeroNotix: TOO FAST, TOO FAST!
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2014-08-16T20:59:41Z stacksmith`: I am running a swank server on SBCL in order to use ncurses via cl-charms.  I am having problems reading special keys, and sometimes SBCL reports strange errors as if it is reading the keys too.  Any thoughts?
2014-08-16T21:00:17Z vydd joined #lisp
2014-08-16T21:00:41Z stacksmith`: I suspect that SBCL and charms are competing for the keyboard input...
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2014-08-16T21:03:56Z AeroNotix: stacksmith`: SBCL's repl doesn't have readline support built in
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2014-08-16T21:05:31Z stacksmith`: AeroNotix: I know.  I use the SBCL window for ncurses, and the output is fine.  I am trying to debug keyboard input now, and it is just wonky.  I am not sure if it's something I am doing wrong yet.
2014-08-16T21:07:21Z AeroNotix: uh, iunno
2014-08-16T21:10:21Z AeroNotix: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Object-Oriented-Programming-COMMON-LISP-Programmers/dp/0201175894 is this available in electronic form? Shipping is painful to .pl
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2014-08-16T21:16:26Z pnpuff: AeroNotix: send it to .lisp, not to .pl :-)
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2014-08-16T21:16:50Z AeroNotix: pnpuff: If only there was such a place :)
2014-08-16T21:17:09Z _death: land of lisp?
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2014-08-16T21:24:26Z stack`: Any ideas on how to get SBCL to _not_ read input from stdin, (just swank/slime?)
2014-08-16T21:25:24Z Bike: start swank threadlessly
2014-08-16T21:25:39Z stack`: ?
2014-08-16T21:26:21Z whmark: stack`: might also try detachtty
2014-08-16T21:27:00Z stack`: It's tricky, since I want to take over the terminal with ncurses code.  I just don't want the SBCL REPL to read stdin...
2014-08-16T21:27:06Z Bike: it's in the manual somewhere, when you do swank:create-server there are multiple threading styles, you can do it without it and no repl. though now that i think about it it might still get ^Cs and such.
2014-08-16T21:27:25Z stack`: Thanks, looking up...
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2014-08-16T21:29:05Z phadthai: also see the standard stream dynamically scoped variables, which can be bound to other streams
2014-08-16T21:29:43Z phadthai: *DEBUG-IO*, *ERROR-OUTPUT*, *QUERY-IO*, *STANDARD-INPUT*, *STANDARD-OUTPUT*, *TRACE-OUTPUT*
2014-08-16T21:29:52Z stack`: Where are the docs?
2014-08-16T21:30:04Z phadthai: the hyperspec under the streams directionary
2014-08-16T21:30:13Z phadthai: err dictionary
2014-08-16T21:30:43Z cy: directory+dictionary=directionary?
2014-08-16T21:31:02Z Bike: clhs *standard-input*
2014-08-16T21:31:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_debug_.htm
2014-08-16T21:31:16Z stack`: Thanks, I meant swank docs...
2014-08-16T21:31:18Z Bike: or do you mean swank docs, if so i'm not totally sure, other than your info pages hopefully
2014-08-16T21:31:28Z phadthai: cy: indeed :)  I was about to say directory, and corrected it too hastily
2014-08-16T21:31:31Z Bike: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Communication-style.html#Communication-style
2014-08-16T21:31:39Z cy: phadthai: love doing that :P
2014-08-16T21:31:56Z Bike: nil is what i was thinking of for you, and :spawn is the usual in a threaded lisp.
2014-08-16T21:32:09Z stack`: Bike, that looks promising.
2014-08-16T21:32:27Z Bike: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Setting-up-the-lisp-image.html you can pass it as an argument to create-server rather than using the dynamic variable
2014-08-16T21:36:03Z stack`: Interesting - :style nil seems to force message output to the darned terminal instead of Emacs...
2014-08-16T21:36:24Z Bike: What, like slime doesn't work?
2014-08-16T21:37:12Z stack`: Well, it connect, I have REPL working, but the warnings etc go to the terminal instead of an Emacs buffer
2014-08-16T21:37:30Z Bike: are *standard-output* and *error-output* different?
2014-08-16T21:37:32Z cy: so, back on the topic of a new common lisp spec, are there any lisps around that sort of fit that description?
2014-08-16T21:38:23Z stack`: Bike, it crashed out to the terminal * REPL.  I will try again.
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2014-08-16T21:42:35Z stack`: Bike, *standard-output* and *error-output* are indeed the same.
2014-08-16T21:43:41Z Bike: and what are they? I guess swank isn't using standard-output in this mode
2014-08-16T21:45:13Z stack`: Flaky shit!  After I quickloaded some libraries, it has stopped outputting to the terminal and is doing the normal Emacs message output.
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2014-08-16T21:45:52Z stack`: Both output vars are #
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2014-08-16T21:46:24Z Bike: hum. weird.
2014-08-16T21:46:48Z stack`: I am like a shit magnet for bizzare behaviour.
2014-08-16T21:47:03Z cy: stack`:  i know the feeling
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2014-08-16T21:48:27Z cy: stack`: i once spent hours trying to get help in an irc channel because i was missing some line in some file and it was causing some program to do something that gave absolutely no indication of why
2014-08-16T21:49:20Z stack`: Thanks - I can now read stdin cleanly.  I'll try to shake down the strange warning redirection behaviour as I crash and restart...
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2014-08-16T21:53:03Z cy: hmm, i wonder how badly accepted a language almost completely inspired by common lisp but cleaned up a little and given things like sockets and threads would be
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2014-08-16T21:55:46Z AeroNotix: cy: why threads? A modern approach to concurrency would be awesome
2014-08-16T21:56:00Z cy: AeroNotix: that's kind of what i meant by threads
2014-08-16T21:56:13Z AeroNotix: cy: threads is a loaded term, be more accurate :)
2014-08-16T21:56:23Z AeroNotix: when you say threads, I think OS threads.
2014-08-16T21:56:28Z cy: AeroNotix: probably something along the lines of goroutines.
2014-08-16T21:56:36Z cy: i'd say bordeaux-threads but i've never used that library
2014-08-16T21:57:10Z AeroNotix: cy: imagine POSIX threading style API
2014-08-16T21:57:48Z AeroNotix: personally, I'd want pretty much Erlang's way of doing concurrency
2014-08-16T21:57:50Z setheus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2014-08-16T21:57:53Z AeroNotix: including linking/monitoring
2014-08-16T21:58:18Z cy: AeroNotix: never really looked into erlang much, want to give me a quick summary?
2014-08-16T21:58:43Z cy: also what about plan9's libthread?
2014-08-16T21:58:49Z AeroNotix: never used that
2014-08-16T21:59:02Z cy: AeroNotix: http://man.cat-v.org/plan_9/2/thread
2014-08-16T21:59:15Z AeroNotix: Erlang is similar to the way Go works (You mentioned Goroutines) except that it schedules differently, imho, better.
2014-08-16T21:59:34Z AeroNotix: and it has the ability to "link" two processes together
2014-08-16T21:59:34Z cy: AeroNotix: so basically it's like Go but with a better implimentation?
2014-08-16T21:59:39Z AeroNotix: I didn't finish
2014-08-16T21:59:44Z cy: sorry :P
2014-08-16T21:59:57Z AeroNotix: the linked processes are able to monitor each others state, if one dies, the other is notified
2014-08-16T22:00:12Z AeroNotix: this allows you to build a fault tolerant tree of processes each linked to each other
2014-08-16T22:00:23Z cy: neat
2014-08-16T22:00:33Z AeroNotix: so e.g. you can have a supervisor process monitoring child workers, restarting workers when they have unhandled failures
2014-08-16T22:00:39Z AeroNotix: Go does not give you this
2014-08-16T22:00:46Z AeroNotix: Also, you can arbitrarily kill child processes
2014-08-16T22:00:53Z AeroNotix: Go does not give you this either.
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2014-08-16T22:01:01Z AeroNotix: And people using "kill channels" are lying to themselves
2014-08-16T22:01:06Z cy: heh
2014-08-16T22:01:20Z cy: yeah they have to wait for the thread to be ready to be killed
2014-08-16T22:01:22Z AeroNotix: Erlang lets you *arbitrarily* kill processes, so even if that process is stuck in an infinite loop
2014-08-16T22:01:50Z cy: sorry, not thread, thread is the wrong term :P
2014-08-16T22:01:57Z PuercoPop: AeroNotix: aren't supervisors part of OTP and not of erlang the language?
2014-08-16T22:02:03Z AeroNotix: anyway, that level of control is what I'd want. OTP (a concurrent, fault tolerant framework.)
2014-08-16T22:02:08Z AeroNotix: PuercoPop: yes, effectively
2014-08-16T22:02:16Z AeroNotix: Supervisors are built on top of monitors and links
2014-08-16T22:02:25Z AeroNotix: OTP is the framework which puts it all together in a neat package
2014-08-16T22:02:32Z AeroNotix: I was extrapolating for cy
2014-08-16T22:03:05Z AeroNotix: but imho -- this model doesn't extend beyond a single node.
2014-08-16T22:03:48Z AeroNotix: I don't find Erlang to be *that* helpful on >1 node. Individual nodes using OTP are awesome and it's a great programming model, making it distributed and you've still got half of the problems that say, Java would have with a distributed system.
2014-08-16T22:03:55Z cy: do most people prefer a lisp-1 or a lisp-2?
2014-08-16T22:04:15Z stack`: Oh, this is really bizarre.  cbreak works in the application - I am getting all the keys, but (print ...) does not output anything until I quit!
2014-08-16T22:04:31Z AeroNotix: cy: that's almost like asking vim vs emacs, probably not a good discussion
2014-08-16T22:04:39Z cy: AeroNotix: alright, then
2014-08-16T22:04:41Z AeroNotix: But *personally*, Lisp-1
2014-08-16T22:05:41Z cy: AeroNotix: no funcall vs being able to use function names as variable names and vice versa without clobbering
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2014-08-16T22:05:53Z cy: can't really decide which i'd prefer. heh
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2014-08-16T22:06:09Z AeroNotix: cy: you just gotta think how often you're shadowing
2014-08-16T22:06:12Z alpha-: Lisp-1 has no funcall?
2014-08-16T22:06:17Z AeroNotix: alpha-: nop
2014-08-16T22:06:20Z AeroNotix: nope
2014-08-16T22:06:21Z alpha-: wow
2014-08-16T22:06:33Z AeroNotix: Variables and function names share the same namespace
2014-08-16T22:06:38Z alpha-: so no apply/map ... ?
2014-08-16T22:06:42Z Bike: it's just (define funcall (lambda (f . a) (apply f a)) so they don't bother.
2014-08-16T22:06:44Z AeroNotix: alpha-: no you have apply and map
2014-08-16T22:06:44Z Bike: no, it has those.
2014-08-16T22:06:48Z alpha-: oh
2014-08-16T22:06:48Z stack`: Some consider that a bug
2014-08-16T22:06:49Z alpha-: well
2014-08-16T22:07:05Z alpha-: should be workable I guess :)
2014-08-16T22:08:15Z mood: stack`: Maybe you have to (FORCE-OUTPUT) after printing something? The output could be buffered
2014-08-16T22:09:15Z stack`: mood - that is exactly what I did, and it does work.  I didn't need it before...
2014-08-16T22:09:33Z stack`: Linux console voodoo is dark and scary.
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2014-08-16T22:09:41Z cy: i like being able to explicitly state that i want to use this function, but at the same time, it's neat to be able to ((lambda (blarg) blarg) blarg)
2014-08-16T22:10:28Z AeroNotix: stack`: compared to what?
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2014-08-16T22:10:43Z cy: opengl voodoo is darker and scarier
2014-08-16T22:11:21Z stack`: AeroNotix: compared to swank without :style nil
2014-08-16T22:13:26Z AeroNotix: https://github.com/mcandre/cl-quickcheck any opinions?
2014-08-16T22:13:49Z seg: most anything graphics programming is dark and scary :(
2014-08-16T22:13:51Z AeroNotix: uh why the fuck is ruby and bundler an optional dependency
2014-08-16T22:14:07Z JuanDaugherty: watch u mouf
2014-08-16T22:14:10Z AeroNotix: ok
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2014-08-16T22:15:33Z AeroNotix watches
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2014-08-16T22:43:41Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: looks like it's for testing
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2014-08-16T22:44:01Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: pretty silly, huh
2014-08-16T22:44:02Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: yeah, property testing specifically
2014-08-16T22:44:13Z AeroNotix: But bundling ruby and bundler? NEXT
2014-08-16T22:44:19Z AeroNotix: not interested
2014-08-16T22:44:41Z wasamasa: bundling?
2014-08-16T22:44:58Z wasamasa: there's a gemfile and some cucumber tests
2014-08-16T22:45:01Z AeroNotix: sure
2014-08-16T22:45:06Z AeroNotix: but who wants to deal with Ruby?
2014-08-16T22:45:09Z AeroNotix: honestly
2014-08-16T22:45:17Z Clarice: A lot of people do.
2014-08-16T22:45:18Z wasamasa: if you happen to run bundler, it will install everything needed to run tests and execute them
2014-08-16T22:45:20Z wasamasa: that's all
2014-08-16T22:45:21Z Clarice: Anyway, that's offtopic.
2014-08-16T22:45:24Z AeroNotix: Sure
2014-08-16T22:45:46Z wasamasa: dunno, maybe that person didn't want to use something written in CL for testing
2014-08-16T22:45:48Z cy: AeroNotix: the popularity of Rails proves quite a few people do
2014-08-16T22:45:50Z wasamasa: for whatever reason
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2014-08-16T22:45:55Z AeroNotix: cy: meh
2014-08-16T22:45:57Z cy: those poor unenlightened bastards
2014-08-16T22:46:07Z AeroNotix: a million flies eat poop, I don't rock up with a knife and fork :)
2014-08-16T22:46:25Z Clarice: Did you mean 'walk'?
2014-08-16T22:46:47Z cy: Clarice: no, rocking chair, rock hard enough that the chair slides a few inches with each rock
2014-08-16T22:46:51Z wasamasa: cy: meh, the language is a lot less weird than that framework
2014-08-16T22:47:04Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: property testing is a very useful testing technique
2014-08-16T22:47:08Z AeroNotix: I didn't look at their API
2014-08-16T22:47:21Z stack`: Each rocking motion brings you closer to poop.
2014-08-16T22:47:36Z AeroNotix: stack`: each fart is poop edging its way out. Think about it.
2014-08-16T22:47:51Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: well, I don't really get why you'd write something looking like pseudo-english for integration tests in the first place
2014-08-16T22:47:58Z cy: wasamasa: i don't mind ruby. it's a relatively decent language. i meant the rails users were poor unenlightened bastards
2014-08-16T22:48:04Z wasamasa: cy: oh right
2014-08-16T22:48:08Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: it's not integration testing
2014-08-16T22:48:12Z AeroNotix: it's property testing
2014-08-16T22:48:12Z cy: stack`: OHGODSTOPROCKINGNOW
2014-08-16T22:48:23Z stack`: SPLAT
2014-08-16T22:48:35Z wasamasa: cy: probably, it attracted enough not so smart people
2014-08-16T22:48:57Z AeroNotix: Your API should define a property that holds for a specific function. You describe those properties and then the library would fill in the blanks and generate test code
2014-08-16T22:49:01Z cy: wasamasa: the same can be said about PHP :P
2014-08-16T22:49:08Z AeroNotix: so, (defun add-two (x) (+ x 2))
2014-08-16T22:49:24Z AeroNotix: and you describe that this function always and forever should yield (+ x 2)
2014-08-16T22:49:34Z AeroNotix: the library can then attempt to generate test cases based upon that
2014-08-16T22:49:49Z cy: AeroNotix: that function doesn't seem all that useful
2014-08-16T22:49:52Z AeroNotix: it's a more declarative way to write tests, and works wonders with pure functions
2014-08-16T22:49:55Z AeroNotix: cy: it's not, it's example
2014-08-16T22:50:07Z AeroNotix: it's *an example
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2014-08-16T22:50:49Z AeroNotix: It's based on the work done by John Hughes
2014-08-16T22:50:49Z cy: it is example, and example is it
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2014-08-16T22:51:16Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: very useful technique
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2014-08-16T22:52:30Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: so, uh, your testing tool has to figure out how to invoke the function and look whether it behaves as expected
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2014-08-16T22:52:55Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: no, you describe properties that your function takes (e.g. integers in the range x..y) then you pass them to your function and make some assertion
2014-08-16T22:53:34Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: generalized unit tests?
2014-08-16T22:53:46Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: I'm not sure I would describe it like that
2014-08-16T22:54:10Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: would you take an example in Erlang? I have better examples than this library does, and I don't know their api to make a qualitive example
2014-08-16T22:54:13Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: well, the things I've come across as "unit tests" were specialized versions of that
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2014-08-16T22:55:18Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: but sure, even though I'll probably not get its syntax :P
2014-08-16T22:55:30Z JuanDaugherty sings "I love$ you Ruby" as Porgy
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2014-08-16T22:57:02Z Clarice: wasamasa: bet you've never used Haskell's quickcheck.
2014-08-16T22:57:19Z wasamasa: Clarice: nope, only read about it
2014-08-16T22:57:34Z Clarice: Obviously haven't read enough about it. Anyway, lisp only, please.
2014-08-16T22:57:47Z AeroNotix: taken it to a pm
2014-08-16T22:58:00Z Clarice: Gratzi.
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2014-08-16T22:59:04Z cy: AeroNotix: i take it you're a fan of erlang?
2014-08-16T22:59:15Z AeroNotix: cy: nope
2014-08-16T22:59:25Z AeroNotix: I hate it, but there are some useful things associated with it
2014-08-16T22:59:28Z cy: heh
2014-08-16T22:59:34Z wasamasa: cy: he works with it
2014-08-16T22:59:41Z cy: wasamasa: ah
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2014-08-16T23:57:17Z stack`: Man, ncurses is a pain in the butt.  It's probably just as easy to do text in sdl or something like that.
2014-08-16T23:58:10Z stack`: Or just as hard, anyway.
2014-08-16T23:59:34Z ttmarek: Anyone successfully using quicklisp in any of their projects?
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2014-08-17T00:02:45Z stack`: ttmarek: probably everyone?
2014-08-17T00:03:01Z kristof: I would hope every single person on the planet.
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2014-08-17T00:03:50Z ttmarek: not me unfortunately...I don't really know what I'm doing wrong. Here
2014-08-17T00:04:16Z ttmarek: s a link to the problem i'm having: https://gist.github.com/ttmarek/1862262a2fbab363b588#file-question-quicklisp-asdf-md
2014-08-17T00:05:06Z ttmarek: I'd appreciate any insight
2014-08-17T00:06:40Z kristof: You formatted your problem in markdown! I'm impressed.
2014-08-17T00:06:56Z ttmarek: wanted people to read it haha
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2014-08-17T00:07:26Z stack`: I think your main file has to have (ql:quickload ...) all your dependencies at the top.
2014-08-17T00:07:47Z |3b|: you shouldn't call ql:quickload from files
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2014-08-17T00:08:45Z |3b|: ttmarek: looks reasonable, can you paste a full transcript of you trying to load it somewhere instead of just a summary of errors?
2014-08-17T00:09:09Z kristof: ttmarek: You need to have those systems installed.
2014-08-17T00:09:25Z |3b|: installing systems is the point of loading things through ql
2014-08-17T00:09:34Z stack`: This may be helpful: http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html
2014-08-17T00:09:54Z ttmarek: stack`: read that already
2014-08-17T00:10:10Z JuanDaugherty: yeah 'everybody' uses ql now
2014-08-17T00:10:58Z ttmarek: |3b|: did you want a full copy paste of the debug buffer?
2014-08-17T00:11:32Z ttmarek: JuanDaugherty: is there any alternative?
2014-08-17T00:11:33Z |3b|: ttmarek: that and whatever you did before you got the error
2014-08-17T00:11:55Z |3b|: (just don't paste it here, use lisppaste or something)
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2014-08-17T00:11:55Z ttmarek: |3b|: alright..I'll just be a minute
2014-08-17T00:12:44Z |3b|: ttmarek: you shouldn't need per-file dependencies with :serial t, and if you did need per-file dependencies, they should depend on "package" also
2014-08-17T00:13:06Z |3b| isn't sure if having both confuses asdf or not, but it could
2014-08-17T00:14:46Z ttmarek: Here's what the error looks like: https://gist.github.com/ttmarek/69dc36e085b4167a6748#file-for3b-lisp
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2014-08-17T00:15:24Z ttmarek: |3b|: so I should remove :depends-on .... from my asd file?
2014-08-17T00:16:10Z |3b| would try without the :depends-on in the (:file ...) forms, keep the :depends-on (:yason :cl-ppcre) though
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2014-08-17T00:16:35Z ttmarek: |3b|: k
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2014-08-17T00:18:22Z |3b|: also, try loading it in a freshly started sbcl
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2014-08-17T00:19:00Z ttmarek: |3b|: should I delete any fasl's ...or does that matter?
2014-08-17T00:19:23Z |3b|: shouldn't matter, but can try that too
2014-08-17T00:20:53Z |3b|: might also try moving extra copies of that code somewhere asdf won't see them... "code/projects/backup/" in the paths in the backtrace is a bit suspicious
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2014-08-17T00:22:04Z ttmarek: |3b|: I don't have a code/projects/backup/ folder...not sure why it shows up
2014-08-17T00:22:46Z ttmarek: |3b|:  wait yes I do...didn't make it myself though...Illl delete it I guess?
2014-08-17T00:23:00Z Xach: looks like you are using debian slime
2014-08-17T00:23:06Z Xach: i wonder what other horrors lurk within the config
2014-08-17T00:23:14Z ttmarek: guilty
2014-08-17T00:23:16Z |3b|: yeah, that's probably not the best idea either
2014-08-17T00:23:31Z Vivitron: Ah and that use package list in the trace doesn't match the linked package.lisp
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2014-08-17T00:25:07Z ttmarek: YES! deleting that weird backup folder worked....I think I know what might've happened...
2014-08-17T00:26:08Z ttmarek: I setup asdf to search for asd files in one of the directories called .../code/projects/...within that directory I had my project and a copy of that same project
2014-08-17T00:26:43Z ttmarek: asdf probably got confused because there were multiple files with the same name etc.
2014-08-17T00:26:50Z ttmarek: lesson learned
2014-08-17T00:27:40Z ttmarek: |3b|: thanks for the help. I appreciate it.
2014-08-17T00:29:00Z stacksmith: Does anyone use CLIM?
2014-08-17T00:29:07Z |3b|: not many
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2014-08-17T00:29:47Z |3b|: probably more people use old applications that use CLIM than actively develop new things that use CLIM
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2014-08-17T02:40:10Z JuanDaugherty: ttmarek, there's always at least a null option
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2014-08-17T02:58:02Z stacksmith: Man, gtk is almost a pleasure to use with CL.  To think of all the years I've wasted with f**king gcc.
2014-08-17T02:58:10Z kristof: stacksmith: Is it really?
2014-08-17T02:58:18Z kristof: stacksmith: How's your application performance?
2014-08-17T02:58:42Z stacksmith: Working through examples.  Wouldn't know about performance at this stage.  Have you had issues?
2014-08-17T02:58:43Z kristof: stacksmith: Also, aren't you stuck with GTK2? I can't remember there being a working binding to GTK3.
2014-08-17T02:58:51Z kristof: I haven't tried it.
2014-08-17T02:59:30Z stacksmith: The simple examples fly.  I am using GTK3 bindings
2014-08-17T02:59:55Z kristof: !! I did not know those existed.
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2014-08-17T03:00:10Z kristof: stacksmith: And they work with gtk3 v3.12?
2014-08-17T03:00:21Z stacksmith:  (ql:quickload "cl-cffi-gtk")
2014-08-17T03:00:49Z kristof: Last update > July 2014
2014-08-17T03:00:53Z kristof: huzzah!
2014-08-17T03:01:05Z kristof: Who do I kiss for this?
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2014-08-17T03:02:09Z stacksmith: I've wasted a couple of hours messing with ncurses bindings, but it's really clunky.  This just rocks.
2014-08-17T03:02:38Z kristof: stacksmith: I imagine macros must be a godsend.
2014-08-17T03:03:05Z kristof: stacksmith: I also understand that GTK requires a lot of XML stuff for configuration.
2014-08-17T03:04:45Z stacksmith: I am working through tutorials at http://www.crategus.com/books/cl-gtk/gtk-tutorial.html#SEC_Top  No XML yet, very lispy.  The author shows C examples side by side with Lisp code.  Lisp code is beautifully smaller and cleaner, of course!
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2014-08-17T03:05:16Z kristof: I should send him a box of chocolates. Really.
2014-08-17T03:05:32Z stacksmith: Yes, a really big box.
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2014-08-17T03:14:52Z csziacobus: is it weird to get a compiler warning for the same function but only when an argument is a specific name?
2014-08-17T03:15:06Z csziacobus: in sbcl
2014-08-17T03:15:07Z kristof: csziacobus: Not if there's a macro involved.
2014-08-17T03:15:18Z kristof: Or if you're shadowing a lexical variable or something.
2014-08-17T03:15:29Z csziacobus: hm
2014-08-17T03:15:32Z csziacobus: not doing either of those
2014-08-17T03:15:48Z kristof: code?
2014-08-17T03:15:59Z csziacobus: ill pastebin
2014-08-17T03:16:11Z kristof: preferably lpaste or pastie or ix or something
2014-08-17T03:16:21Z cy: i like bpaste
2014-08-17T03:16:26Z csziacobus: http://pastebin.com/4DW14ijb
2014-08-17T03:16:40Z csziacobus: only gives a unreachable code warning when the argument name in "number"
2014-08-17T03:16:49Z cy: kristof: what's wrong with pastebin? i remember #archlinux explaining this to me once but i forget
2014-08-17T03:17:06Z kristof: cy: For me, it's just the ads.
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2014-08-17T03:17:21Z cy: oh, i have an adblocker so i wouldn't know
2014-08-17T03:17:39Z kristof: csziacobus: Does it tell you what line the problem is on?
2014-08-17T03:17:53Z csziacobus: yeah, it underlines (mod number 10)
2014-08-17T03:18:07Z csziacobus: no warning whenever the argument name is different
2014-08-17T03:18:12Z csziacobus: works as expected
2014-08-17T03:18:19Z csziacobus: sbcl
2014-08-17T03:18:31Z cy: sbcl has been acting a bit odd for me lately regarding loops
2014-08-17T03:18:43Z cy: what version?
2014-08-17T03:18:49Z csziacobus: 1.2.2
2014-08-17T03:18:51Z csziacobus: latest
2014-08-17T03:18:59Z cy: that may be the issue
2014-08-17T03:19:05Z cy: that's the version that's being weird for me
2014-08-17T03:19:10Z cy: and iirc it updated a few days ago
2014-08-17T03:19:36Z stacksmith: Yeah, I see it too.
2014-08-17T03:19:37Z csziacobus: i dont think so
2014-08-17T03:19:59Z cy: mainly been complaining about named but not used variables inside of loops for me
2014-08-17T03:20:11Z csziacobus: try changing number to something else though, it wont give a warning
2014-08-17T03:20:16Z csziacobus: thats the weird part
2014-08-17T03:20:32Z cy: yeah i think this release of sbcl is bugged
2014-08-17T03:20:34Z cy: try clisp or something
2014-08-17T03:20:44Z csziacobus: no prob on ccl
2014-08-17T03:20:53Z csziacobus: its just the argument name thats giving an issue
2014-08-17T03:21:04Z cy: csziacobus: it works on ccl?
2014-08-17T03:21:10Z csziacobus: it works on sbcl to
2014-08-17T03:21:13Z cy: with the name "number"?
2014-08-17T03:21:15Z csziacobus: its just a false compiler warning
2014-08-17T03:21:18Z |3b|: i think sbcl has some heuristics to hide warnings from internal code, but they sometimes get confused like that
2014-08-17T03:21:39Z csziacobus: but in terms of a simple lexical variable name?
2014-08-17T03:22:04Z |3b|: it probably uses the same name internally
2014-08-17T03:22:10Z csziacobus: hm
2014-08-17T03:22:33Z kristof: That's why I mentioned lexical shadowing
2014-08-17T03:22:53Z stacksmith: I've had similar unreachable code problems, but upon close examination, they were my own bugs.  SBCL is pretty good at narrowing the types and inferring that some things cannot happen.  Double check your code.  For instance, you might end up shifting by a negative number here.
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2014-08-17T03:23:20Z |3b|: yeah, the generic transform on MOD uses the name NUMBER as well
2014-08-17T03:23:24Z csziacobus: no, it works totally as expected, and the warning only happens on a specific name
2014-08-17T03:23:45Z |3b|: and NUMBER is in CL package, so you both get the same NUMBER symbol, and it confuses the heuristics that would otherwise hide the warning
2014-08-17T03:23:49Z csziacobus: |3b|: that might be it
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2014-08-17T03:24:35Z cy: sbcl has still been acting a bit odd for me lately
2014-08-17T03:24:43Z csziacobus: cy: what sort?
2014-08-17T03:26:37Z cy: csziacobus: complaining about missing keywords in perfectly sane loops
2014-08-17T03:26:51Z |3b|: cy: any examples?
2014-08-17T03:27:05Z cy: |3b|: was just looking for one, gimme a sec
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2014-08-17T03:27:29Z |3b|: there were a bunch of LOOP fixes relatively recently, so if anything broke, test cases would be good :)
2014-08-17T03:27:54Z cy: |3b|: http://pastebin.com/4DW14ijb
2014-08-17T03:28:00Z cy: works in clisp, fails in sbcl
2014-08-17T03:28:36Z cy: wait that wasn't it
2014-08-17T03:28:40Z cy: herrrrr
2014-08-17T03:28:41Z |3b| wondered about that
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2014-08-17T03:30:59Z cy: |3b|: nevermind my error was because i'm dumb and put a paren in the wrong place
2014-08-17T03:31:03Z |3b|: :)
2014-08-17T03:31:06Z cy: :D
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2014-08-17T03:31:42Z csziacobus: cy: nice
2014-08-17T03:33:04Z cy: i was doing a loop with a subloop and i used one too few parens to close the subloop
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2014-08-17T03:34:00Z cy: man i wish gentoo would update ccl already :/
2014-08-17T03:36:22Z csziacobus: cy: i dont recall ccl adding any killer features recently
2014-08-17T03:36:33Z csziacobus: cy: missing something?
2014-08-17T03:37:07Z cy: csziacobus: on linux kernel >=3.15.4 it segfaults
2014-08-17T03:37:20Z cy: csziacobus: upstream has a patch for it
2014-08-17T03:37:29Z csziacobus: cy: right, but no new release yet
2014-08-17T03:37:42Z cy: csziacobus: it's in their repository
2014-08-17T03:38:07Z csziacobus: cy: is it? i had to get it from svn
2014-08-17T03:38:17Z csziacobus: :cy arch doesn't have it either
2014-08-17T03:38:32Z cy: csziacobus: i mean the version with the patch is in their repository
2014-08-17T03:38:37Z cy: not the release
2014-08-17T03:38:52Z csziacobus: cy: ah, ok
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2014-08-17T03:39:30Z cy: csziacobus: i can get it running by downgrading my kernel, so i might switch to the most recent LTS
2014-08-17T03:39:37Z cy: which i think is 3.14.something
2014-08-17T03:39:54Z cy: at least until that gets fixed
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2014-08-17T03:40:03Z csziacobus: cy: or you can get the image in the repo
2014-08-17T03:40:38Z cy: csziacobus: or that, but i'm good at writing ebuilds and i'd rather not manually manage a bunch of software
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2014-08-17T03:41:32Z csziacobus: cy: i mean, you could just replace the binary if you dont want to have to manage it manually
2014-08-17T03:41:34Z cy: once i get a decent enough computer i'll do LFS but for now downgrading the kernel is fine with me, beings i don't honestly know what the new version(s) have
2014-08-17T03:41:36Z csziacobus: cy: your choice i guess
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2014-08-17T04:20:48Z resttime: are there any CL libraries for Windows API functions?
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2014-08-17T04:21:09Z resttime: I want to send keystrokes to another window and such
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2014-08-17T04:21:36Z resttime: hotkey macros that is
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2014-08-17T05:48:53Z inbox: how can i learn Lisp?
2014-08-17T05:50:57Z |3b|: any of the usual means of education should work, school, books, self-study, etc
2014-08-17T05:51:14Z |3b|: minion: tell inbox about gentle
2014-08-17T05:51:15Z minion: inbox: please see gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
2014-08-17T05:51:19Z |3b|: minion: tell inbox about pcl
2014-08-17T05:51:19Z minion: inbox: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
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2014-08-17T05:51:58Z inbox: thanks |3b|
2014-08-17T05:52:08Z inbox: :)
2014-08-17T05:52:18Z inbox: Lisp is like c?
2014-08-17T05:53:39Z |3b|: they are both turing-complete general-purpose programming languages, but generally not very similar
2014-08-17T05:54:37Z cy: |3b|: but they both have macros! don'tkillme
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2014-08-17T05:57:21Z csziacobus: inbox: if you're proficient in another language, you can go pcl, otherwise gentle
2014-08-17T05:58:13Z inbox: oh i see thanks
2014-08-17T05:58:35Z inbox: i m afraid of starting another langage.
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2014-08-17T06:01:24Z cy: inbox: don't be. each language is easier to learn than the last
2014-08-17T06:01:56Z inbox: thanks
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2014-08-17T06:02:18Z inbox: where Lisp can be used?
2014-08-17T06:02:28Z cy: inbox: anywhere any other language can, prettymuch
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2014-08-17T06:02:54Z inbox: i know c and c++ and python, then i must learn lisp?
2014-08-17T06:03:03Z nightfly: you /can/
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2014-08-17T06:04:02Z |3b|: if you don't like those languages, you might like lisp better, or if you think learning is a good idea, lisp might expose you to new ideas (might also try prolog, haskell, forth)
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2014-08-17T06:18:57Z stacksmi`: How do you terminate an SBCL thread?
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2014-08-17T06:20:36Z stacksmi`: Never mind, it works now.
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2014-08-17T09:38:55Z jackdaniel: how to see definition of reader macro #P via slime?
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2014-08-17T09:42:16Z Posterdati: hi
2014-08-17T09:42:32Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: is you grand father Glenn Grant?
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2014-08-17T09:53:41Z H4ns: jackdaniel: (get-dispatch-macro-character #\# #\P) gives you the dispatch function definition.
2014-08-17T09:53:52Z H4ns: jackdaniel: you can use M-p on that.
2014-08-17T09:54:52Z H4ns: M-., sorry
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2014-08-17T10:39:05Z shka: cliki is up and runing :D
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2014-08-17T12:05:51Z jackdaniel: H4ns: it was very helpful, thank you
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2014-08-17T12:26:09Z DKordic`: b
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2014-08-17T12:53:51Z AeroNotix: Does Quicklisp have a way to silence ql:quickload ? Looking at the source there's a key to pass in (:verbose) but it doesn't seem to change anyting when I set :verbose nil
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2014-08-17T12:54:22Z shka: AeroNotix: maybe there is a general way to redirect text?
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2014-08-17T12:54:52Z AeroNotix: shka: sure, there's that, but I want to use the internal stuff before I just wrap the call redirecting stdout
2014-08-17T12:55:14Z AeroNotix: Just rebinding *standard-ouput* to (make-broadcast-stream) would work, but if ql has a flag, I want to use that :)
2014-08-17T12:55:15Z shka: ah, right
2014-08-17T12:55:28Z AeroNotix: *standard-output*
2014-08-17T12:56:11Z shka: and what about :silent?
2014-08-17T12:56:46Z AeroNotix: there's no key for that...
2014-08-17T12:56:57Z shka: strange, there is here
2014-08-17T12:57:06Z shka: but it does nothing ^^
2014-08-17T12:57:25Z AeroNotix: whatever
2014-08-17T12:57:31Z Xach: No, there is no flag or option to make it silent
2014-08-17T12:57:36Z Xach: You have to mess with streams.
2014-08-17T12:57:50Z Xach: I would like to add something to make it silent, but have not done it yet.
2014-08-17T12:58:00Z AeroNotix: Xach: ok, I will add that today
2014-08-17T12:58:59Z shka: AeroNotix: do you work on something right now?
2014-08-17T12:59:04Z AeroNotix: shka: wat
2014-08-17T12:59:21Z AeroNotix: english
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2014-08-17T13:00:48Z shka: AeroNotix: you are just bothered by the verbose output of the quickload or it is because you actually need a silent behavior for some concrete project
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2014-08-17T13:02:01Z shka: i'm just wondering what you are hacking :-)
2014-08-17T13:02:02Z AeroNotix: shka: a tool should only print to standard out when there is an error
2014-08-17T13:02:10Z shka: ah, ok
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2014-08-17T13:02:20Z p_l: ... to stderr. Not stdout
2014-08-17T13:02:24Z AeroNotix: yeah
2014-08-17T13:02:42Z AeroNotix: and I am writing a Makefile target for running tests, I want the *only* output to be the test runner's output
2014-08-17T13:02:50Z AeroNotix: this way, failures are much more obvious.
2014-08-17T13:02:55Z p_l: stdout is a bit more complex case. It should be silent if there is no "usable" output.
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2014-08-17T13:03:21Z shka: AeroNotix: i see
2014-08-17T13:03:25Z p_l: I would either redirect stdout and keep only stderr, or run ql calls with redirected stdout
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2014-08-17T13:03:50Z p_l: after all, we have standard streams as special variables for a reason :D
2014-08-17T13:04:11Z AeroNotix: p_l: sure, but having it as part of the API keeps calls which call *into* ql: nier
2014-08-17T13:04:13Z AeroNotix: nicer*
2014-08-17T13:04:17Z AeroNotix: abstraction!
2014-08-17T13:04:35Z Xach: AeroNotix: add what?
2014-08-17T13:04:47Z AeroNotix: Xach: :silent flag to quickload
2014-08-17T13:05:05Z Xach: Ok. I can't guarantee I'd accept it, sorry.
2014-08-17T13:05:09Z AeroNotix: Why not/
2014-08-17T13:05:11Z AeroNotix: ?
2014-08-17T13:05:57Z Xach: I don't know the right way to implement it, so I'd like to think more about it. It may involve introducing new synonym streams or something similar. I'm not sure someone else will come up with something that makes me happy when it's so difficult to do it myself.
2014-08-17T13:06:05Z Xach: On the other hand, if you do make something that makes me happy, I'll be double-happy!
2014-08-17T13:06:36Z AeroNotix: I was just going to have the :silent flag rebind *standard-out* or not
2014-08-17T13:07:44Z Xach: I'll give that a look and see if that is a usable short-term solution.
2014-08-17T13:07:48Z AeroNotix: ok
2014-08-17T13:09:07Z p_l: (defmacro |silence! I'll kill ya!| (body) `(let ((*standard-output* (make-broadcast-stream))) ,@body))
2014-08-17T13:09:11Z p_l: ?
2014-08-17T13:09:17Z p_l: something like that
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2014-08-17T13:09:55Z AeroNotix: p_l: that's what I have in my code. It's a different abstraction to having it in quicklisp itself
2014-08-17T13:10:25Z p_l: AeroNotix: I'm not sure If I wouldn't rather see such thing in a test runner itself
2014-08-17T13:10:35Z p_l: especially since I might need other setup code as well
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2014-08-17T13:12:56Z AeroNotix: Xach: let's see what you think: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-client/pull/106
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2014-08-17T13:14:12Z AeroNotix: untested, it's a request for comments
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2014-08-17T13:17:49Z AeroNotix: I'm afk
2014-08-17T13:18:00Z AeroNotix: quicklisp code seems like a great place to learn
2014-08-17T13:18:04Z AeroNotix: loving it
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2014-08-17T13:23:23Z Xach: AeroNotix: can you show me some example sessions loading some stuff? like hunchentoot or something?
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2014-08-17T14:22:26Z ubikation: excuse me is there a good list of ais for solving games like chess/checkers somewhere on cliki.net? thanks!
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2014-08-17T14:23:48Z shka: ubikation: i don't think there is
2014-08-17T14:23:59Z shka: but what exactly you want to get?
2014-08-17T14:24:06Z shka: you can take a look at the land of lisp
2014-08-17T14:24:09Z ubikation: I just want something to play against/improve
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2014-08-17T14:24:33Z shka: there is example of ai for a "diece of doom" game there
2014-08-17T14:24:58Z shka: ubikation: ah, ok -- i though you want to work on some implementation
2014-08-17T14:25:02Z shka: *thought
2014-08-17T14:29:13Z shka: does anybody have expirence with vecto library?
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2014-08-17T14:55:03Z Xach: shka: i do
2014-08-17T14:55:28Z Xach: i usually use it with the "vectometry" library these days, so i don't have to do low-level work with points and colors.
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2014-08-17T14:55:44Z Xach: sadly, vectometry has not been cleaned up and added to quicklisp :(
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2014-08-17T15:00:09Z shka: Xach: hm, i'm wonder how can i manipulate the coordinates
2014-08-17T15:00:13Z shka: i want to rotate
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2014-08-17T15:00:20Z shka: so i moved to the center
2014-08-17T15:00:26Z shka: and used rotate
2014-08-17T15:00:29Z gendl: Xach: we’re missing you here at ILC.
2014-08-17T15:01:08Z shka: but now as it seems, drawning takes a center as coordinate system
2014-08-17T15:01:20Z shka: which kinda makes sense since i moved there
2014-08-17T15:01:49Z shka: can i now simply move back to the orginal position?
2014-08-17T15:04:59Z shka: and how
2014-08-17T15:05:13Z shka: since orginal coordinates are rotated
2014-08-17T15:05:26Z shka: hm, i have other idea
2014-08-17T15:06:24Z Xach: shka: you can use with-graphics-state or something like that
2014-08-17T15:07:06Z Xach: shka: if you'd like to get a good handle on how vecto works, see adobe's "PDF Reference" document. It's really clear and has lots of visual examples of how to manipulate the 2d coordinate system. Vecto is strongly influenced and inspired by the postscript/pdf model of 2d drawing.
2014-08-17T15:07:43Z Xach: gendl: i'm very bummed to be missing it. i thought after i decided not to go i would instantly feel better and regret not going. unfortunately i still feel like crud.
2014-08-17T15:09:08Z shka: Xach: ok, thanks
2014-08-17T15:10:11Z gendl: well then, at least you don’t have to regret too much about not coming. Here’s hoping things turn around starting tomorrow!
2014-08-17T15:10:31Z Xach: thanks!
2014-08-17T15:10:41Z gendl: it looks like pretty much all the talks are being videod, i’ll find out if they are going on youtube or what.
2014-08-17T15:11:15Z shka: Xach: oooooooooh that reference has over thousand pages
2014-08-17T15:11:33Z Xach: That would be nice, but if past results are an indicator, seems unlikely. I hope it does happen though. Of course much of the fun of conferences in the time between presentations.
2014-08-17T15:11:47Z Xach: shka: the journey of a thousand pages begins with a single something-or-other.
2014-08-17T15:11:58Z Xach: shka: fortunately you only need to look at the first few chapters on drawing and the coordinate system.
2014-08-17T15:12:17Z shka: heh, ok
2014-08-17T15:12:18Z Xach: much of the rest of PDF is for stuff you can ignore, like filling forms and its embedded javascript stuff
2014-08-17T15:12:27Z shka: that's great
2014-08-17T15:12:41Z shka: since i'm not willing to read whole thing
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2014-08-17T15:14:22Z shka: heh, it has section about video and 3D images
2014-08-17T15:14:38Z shka: i didn't even knew that it is capable of doing anything like this
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2014-08-17T17:18:43Z crculver: In Emacs Lisp, if you want to use variables with values limited to inside a function, you have to define those variables *and then write the entire body of the function using them* inside a (let ... ) statement.
2014-08-17T17:19:13Z crculver: What is the reason for this design? It forces another parentheses layering. Is it limited to Emacs Lisp or found throughout the Lisp family?
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2014-08-17T17:21:20Z wasamasa: local values?
2014-08-17T17:22:24Z wasamasa: and yes, it's found in the entire lisp family
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2014-08-17T17:23:46Z DKordic`: crculver: How could it be otherwise?
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2014-08-17T17:24:34Z joshe: perhaps crculver is used to languages without nested lexical scopes
2014-08-17T17:25:47Z wasamasa: crculver: suggest something different that allows reasoning about evaluation and scopes that easily :P
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2014-08-17T17:37:35Z shka: where can i find with-gensym macro?
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2014-08-17T17:37:55Z shka: do we have any package with utility set?
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2014-08-17T17:42:52Z jackdaniel: shka: alexandria
2014-08-17T17:44:44Z shka: jackdaniel: thx
2014-08-17T17:44:57Z jackdaniel: !next
2014-08-17T17:45:06Z jackdaniel: yw :)
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2014-08-17T17:49:33Z crculver: OK, I get Lisp's scoping now.
2014-08-17T17:50:58Z Vivitron`: crculver: although this channel is about Common Lisp not lisp in general, CL shares that design choice and one of the nice results is that it makes it trivial for the compiler warn you that you've misspelled a variable name
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2014-08-17T17:56:01Z stacksmith: Slightly OT: I switched CapsLock and Ctrl (Xubuntu 14.04) using xmodmap in .bashrc and several times a day it somehow switches back; very irritating.  Advice?
2014-08-17T17:57:15Z crculver: stacksmith: Check 'ps -A' and see if ibus is running.
2014-08-17T17:57:41Z jackdaniel: stacksmith: put it in .xinitrc instead of bashrc
2014-08-17T17:57:55Z stacksmith: crculver: no ibus
2014-08-17T17:58:06Z Vivitron`: crculver: e.g. if your function has an argument "list" and you try to set it with "(setq lists" , the compiler can tell you "lists" is unbound instead of doing something surprising at runtime
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2014-08-17T17:59:37Z crculver: Vivitron`: Understood.
2014-08-17T17:59:45Z AeroNotix: Xach: updated PR with example use and output
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2014-08-17T18:00:23Z AeroNotix: link: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-client/pull/106
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2014-08-17T18:04:28Z stacksmith: Xach, I installed cl-cffi-gtk in (git-cloned into local projects).  It worked fine but is now crashing on gtk initialization.  Is there a way to force a recompile?  Linux may have updated something...
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2014-08-17T18:06:11Z stacksmith: AeroNotix, you use cl-cffi-gtk, right
2014-08-17T18:06:15Z AeroNotix: stacksmith: I do.
2014-08-17T18:06:28Z AeroNotix: stacksmith: what errors are you getting?
2014-08-17T18:06:34Z stacksmith: Have you had division by zero errors on initialization?
2014-08-17T18:06:44Z AeroNotix: stacksmith: very rarely, still happens. Not sure what causes it.
2014-08-17T18:06:51Z AeroNotix: It happens *very rarely*
2014-08-17T18:07:05Z AeroNotix: do you get it 100% of the time?
2014-08-17T18:07:13Z stacksmith: It was happenning *very rarely* yesterday, but now 100%
2014-08-17T18:07:16Z AeroNotix: weird
2014-08-17T18:07:24Z AeroNotix: why are you locally cloning it?
2014-08-17T18:07:29Z AeroNotix: instead of getting it through quicklisp
2014-08-17T18:07:43Z stacksmith: I tried yesterday but it wasn't there.
2014-08-17T18:08:02Z AeroNotix: Hmm, I can't rememeber if it is! But I have it cloned locally too
2014-08-17T18:08:06Z AeroNotix: but I'm hacking on it
2014-08-17T18:08:12Z AeroNotix: but yeah I don't think it is in quicklisp
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2014-08-17T18:08:26Z stacksmith: I think I got a linux update yesterday.
2014-08-17T18:08:30Z AeroNotix: archlinux?
2014-08-17T18:08:34Z stacksmith: Xubuntu
2014-08-17T18:08:36Z AeroNotix: ok
2014-08-17T18:09:02Z stacksmith: AeroNotix: how do you force a recompile?
2014-08-17T18:09:48Z AeroNotix: not sure
2014-08-17T18:10:00Z AeroNotix: delete it and refetch it?
2014-08-17T18:10:44Z stacksmith: What's the right way to delete?  Yesterday I tried doing it but quicklisp was erroring...
2014-08-17T18:11:13Z AeroNotix: (ql:uninstall "cl-cffi-gtk")
2014-08-17T18:11:35Z stacksmith: Says "unknown system"...
2014-08-17T18:11:51Z stacksmith: I think I messed something up.
2014-08-17T18:11:56Z AeroNotix: (ql:list-local-systems)
2014-08-17T18:12:07Z AeroNotix: is it in that list?
2014-08-17T18:12:20Z stacksmith: Yup.
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2014-08-17T18:12:38Z stacksmith: Along with pango,cairo and the rest of the usual suspects.
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2014-08-17T18:12:48Z AeroNotix: So, maybe you can't uninstall anything in local-projects
2014-08-17T18:13:00Z AeroNotix: I cant seem to uninstall anything in local-projects either
2014-08-17T18:13:03Z AeroNotix: Xach: confirm?
2014-08-17T18:13:12Z AeroNotix: stacksmith: just delete it and refetch it from GH
2014-08-17T18:13:46Z stacksmith: Will try now.
2014-08-17T18:13:52Z AeroNotix: ok
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2014-08-17T18:15:37Z stacksmith: Damned xmodmap is driving me crazy
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2014-08-17T18:16:47Z wasamasa: stacksmith: as I've told you over at #emacs, with desktop environments you're supposed to set your keyboard up in its settings application
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2014-08-17T18:18:18Z sake: About cl-cffi-gtk if I'm adding boxes to box, how can I make it so when user is resizing the window the other box doesn't expand horizontally but the other does?
2014-08-17T18:18:39Z stacksmith: wasamasa: missed your #emacs comment, sorry.
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2014-08-17T18:18:58Z sake: I used :hxpand nil but it didn't make difference
2014-08-17T18:19:13Z wasamasa: stacksmith: besides, I'd rather use setxkbmap over xmodmap for trivial remappings like these :P
2014-08-17T18:19:32Z wasamasa: stacksmith: since it doesn't rely on a certain state to work out
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2014-08-17T18:23:15Z joe-w-bimedina: I find myself testing every piece of code I add to my library very thoroughly. Is there a library that someone can recommend that will make this testing process as easy as can be?
2014-08-17T18:23:27Z stacksmith: wasamasa: I'll google around for setxkbmap, thanks
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2014-08-17T18:25:18Z stacksmith: AeroNotix: I am totally screwed.  I reinstalled, now no errors, shows #, now GTK window in site. Damn.
2014-08-17T18:25:44Z AeroNotix: stacksmith: no errors when installing?
2014-08-17T18:25:54Z stacksmith: No errors.
2014-08-17T18:26:02Z AeroNotix: as in, quickloading it works *perfectly* ?
2014-08-17T18:26:31Z stacksmith: Yup.
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2014-08-17T18:26:42Z AeroNotix: Sounds to me like maybe the requisite gtk libraries have updated or something
2014-08-17T18:27:02Z AeroNotix: check that you have the prerequisite packages installed at the correct versions
2014-08-17T18:27:08Z stacksmith: That's my thinking.
2014-08-17T18:27:45Z stacksmith: I'm restarting SBCL and will try one of the demos.
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2014-08-17T18:28:24Z AeroNotix: ok
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2014-08-17T18:39:29Z stacksmith: Aero, have you tried running gtk-testsuite?
2014-08-17T18:39:53Z kristof: stacksmith: What are you writing, anyway? Or are you just playing around with the bindings?
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2014-08-17T18:40:18Z stacksmith: Messing around.
2014-08-17T18:40:23Z kristof: That's always fun.
2014-08-17T18:40:34Z kristof: Today I read the planet lisp post on common lisp and dwave
2014-08-17T18:40:47Z kristof: I had no idea that they built their operating system entirely on SBCL! That's neat.
2014-08-17T18:41:22Z kristof: But the rest of the post feels very... spiritual?
2014-08-17T18:42:22Z kristof: In an offputting kind of way. Someone else should comment.
2014-08-17T18:43:38Z stacksmith: Sadly the world already has an image of Lisp users as standoffish weirdos.
2014-08-17T18:43:55Z kristof: stacksmith: Did you read the post?
2014-08-17T18:44:06Z stacksmith: Working my way to it.
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2014-08-17T18:46:14Z AeroNotix: link to post?
2014-08-17T18:46:26Z AeroNotix: stacksmith: you need to specifically tag me else I won't see stuff. I saw it by accident
2014-08-17T18:46:30Z AeroNotix: I didn't try running the test suite
2014-08-17T18:46:56Z kristof: AeroNotix: http://cjelupton.wordpress.com/2014/08/14/quantum-computing-and-lisp/
2014-08-17T18:47:23Z AeroNotix: kristof: thanks
2014-08-17T18:47:57Z kristof: AeroNotix: Starts off as "oh, cool!" because of the D-wave stuff and then turns into philosphical rubbish.
2014-08-17T18:48:06Z stacksmith: Reads a little like breathless gibberish!
2014-08-17T18:48:10Z kristof: :)
2014-08-17T18:48:21Z kristof: THE WORLD IS COMPOSED OF CONSES! OF COURSE!
2014-08-17T18:48:33Z Xach: You can discuss it directly with the author, ThePhoeron, if you like.
2014-08-17T18:48:40Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach
2014-08-17T18:48:41Z Xach has set mode +b *!*rr@90.174.5.*
2014-08-17T18:48:48Z raaamina [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (spamming)
2014-08-17T18:48:50Z Xach has set mode -o Xach
2014-08-17T18:48:56Z stacksmith: 'Quantum' is a little bit like 'AI' of yesteryear...
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2014-08-17T18:49:44Z stacksmith: "The inherent super-symmetry of Lisp programs, the central nervous system, and the physical universe is perhaps the strongest argument in favor of this."
2014-08-17T18:50:12Z Bike: pff.
2014-08-17T18:50:18Z kristof: Xach: That would be confrontational with no good justification or positive outcome.
2014-08-17T18:50:45Z Bike: well, scott aaronson is my go-to source for complaining about d-wave. mostly so i don't have to read the philosophical stuff. i don't think he cares about lisp though.
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2014-08-17T18:51:00Z stacksmith: "Together, Quantum Computing and Lisp can help us better understand ourselves, our true nature, the universe we live in, and the limitless potential of our species—that the combination will almost certainly lead to emergent machine intelligence and the technological singularity is pure gravy, after that. Some days it is truly staggering to live in such a time in human history, living with the knowledge that we Lisp Hackers hold the
2014-08-17T18:51:01Z stacksmith: future of the entire human race in our hands, at our keyboards."  crap.
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2014-08-17T18:51:30Z stacksmith: And to think I was looking longingly at their job listings.
2014-08-17T18:51:51Z Bike: is that actually from d-wave or just some blogger, though
2014-08-17T18:52:13Z kristof: The blog post I linked to above.
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2014-08-17T18:52:32Z stacksmith: The Developer Blog of "the Phoeron" Colin J.E. Lupton
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2014-08-17T18:53:04Z Bike: doesn't seem he's actually an employee of the company, or a PR person or anything
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2014-08-17T18:55:03Z stacksmith: I wish I hadn't read it.  I think I vomited a little.
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2014-08-17T19:10:32Z stacksmith: AeroNotix: The simplest example from the tutorial opens a window and crashes with a /0.  Haven't been able to recover without restarting SBCL now.  Seems related to bordeaux-threads, perhaps.
2014-08-17T19:11:01Z AeroNotix: stacksmith: watching a video at the moment, will take a look in a sec
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2014-08-17T19:15:45Z stacksmith: AeroNotix: whenever you are ready, http://paste.lisp.org/+32O3
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2014-08-17T19:17:10Z AeroNotix: stacksmith: works for me
2014-08-17T19:18:01Z stacksmith: AeroNotix: Darn.  I was just beginning to enjoy gtk bindings.
2014-08-17T19:18:27Z AeroNotix: stacksmith: check what packages you recently upgraded
2014-08-17T19:18:42Z AeroNotix: OS packages, I mean
2014-08-17T19:19:46Z stacksmith: AeroNotix: There was a major (65Mb+) update, made me reboot.  I really can't stand what Linux turned into.  I thought I got away from MSFT forcing shit down my gullet.
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2014-08-17T19:20:27Z AeroNotix: stacksmith: you sound like you don't know what you are doing
2014-08-17T19:20:32Z kristof: :o
2014-08-17T19:20:39Z AeroNotix: Linux is not at fault here, you updated without looking what you were updating
2014-08-17T19:20:46Z stacksmith: O
2014-08-17T19:20:57Z AeroNotix: I haven't used Ubuntu for a while, but I guarantee that it showed you what you were upgrading first.
2014-08-17T19:20:58Z stacksmith: I'll take that as a complement.
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2014-08-17T19:21:12Z AeroNotix: It's a statement; not an insult or a complement.
2014-08-17T19:21:28Z stacksmith: Well, I'll take it as a complement anyway.
2014-08-17T19:21:32Z AeroNotix: Fine
2014-08-17T19:21:49Z AeroNotix: Saying "Linux" as a whole is wrong too.
2014-08-17T19:22:01Z AeroNotix: This is off topic, so lets get back to debugging your gtk problem.
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2014-08-17T19:27:23Z AeroNotix: stacksmith: btw
2014-08-17T19:27:39Z AeroNotix: Are you using the same SLIME session when you open and close the windows?
2014-08-17T19:27:57Z AeroNotix: because the typical examples include code to tear down the gtk context and then when you try to restart the gtk main loop, it's fubar'd
2014-08-17T19:28:16Z AeroNotix: so when you are working in SLIME and wanting to open and close GTK windows, remove the code which cleans up the gtk main loop
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2014-08-17T19:28:39Z stacksmith: Yesterday I had no problems repeatedly running this test in the same session.
2014-08-17T19:28:48Z AeroNotix: Yes, it may work *sometimes*.
2014-08-17T19:28:52Z stacksmith: I ran into issues if it crashed in the middle.
2014-08-17T19:28:57Z AeroNotix: Indeed
2014-08-17T19:29:00Z stacksmith: But it was consistent.
2014-08-17T19:29:19Z AeroNotix: (leave-gtk-main) is the thing to be avoided
2014-08-17T19:29:29Z AeroNotix: since this tears down the internal gtk main loop
2014-08-17T19:29:39Z stacksmith: Now, it sometimes crashes, sometimes silently fails, and other times locks up dead.
2014-08-17T19:29:41Z AeroNotix: and when you try to start up a new window: bigbadaboom.
2014-08-17T19:30:03Z AeroNotix: Yes, it's essentially undefined behaviour.
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2014-08-17T19:30:13Z stacksmith: Makes sense.  I can't get a stable window up anymore, though.
2014-08-17T19:30:14Z AeroNotix: since it's a piece of C memory which is no longer supposed to exist
2014-08-17T19:30:21Z AeroNotix: hmm
2014-08-17T19:30:30Z AeroNotix: "C memory" -> memory
2014-08-17T19:31:29Z stacksmith: Well, I take it back.  Running without slime seems to work fine.
2014-08-17T19:31:45Z shka: hmmm
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2014-08-17T19:31:54Z shka: i have trouble with macro and scoping
2014-08-17T19:32:06Z AeroNotix: stacksmith: start a new REPL, slime or not, remove code to (leave-gtk-main) and everything should be fine
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2014-08-17T19:32:15Z AeroNotix: shka: show code
2014-08-17T19:32:48Z stacksmith: AeroNotix: I can run example-simple-window over and over in a REPL without emacs/slime.
2014-08-17T19:32:50Z shka: basicly, i'm trying to create a macro that will return form (let ((something symbol)) (defun...
2014-08-17T19:32:58Z shka: howevew
2014-08-17T19:33:25Z AeroNotix: stacksmith: it could be just a different memory layout, like I said, it's undefined behaviour
2014-08-17T19:33:34Z AeroNotix: remove calls to (leave-gtk-main) and try it in both again
2014-08-17T19:33:39Z shka: *however, my let form appears to create a copy, and not the new binding to the existing value
2014-08-17T19:33:51Z AeroNotix: shka: show the full macro
2014-08-17T19:34:24Z Xach: shka: paste.lisp.org is a good place to share it
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2014-08-17T19:35:51Z shka: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143428
2014-08-17T19:35:56Z shka: here
2014-08-17T19:37:32Z Xach: shka: how would you use it?
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2014-08-17T19:38:15Z shka: Xach: i don't want to use it
2014-08-17T19:38:25Z shka: it is just to demonstrate my problem
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2014-08-17T19:38:50Z shka: i want to pass symbol pointing to dynamic scoped variable as a list
2014-08-17T19:39:19Z Xach: I mean: "What would a typical call to such a macro look like, and what would you expect it to do?"
2014-08-17T19:39:26Z shka: yes
2014-08-17T19:39:27Z Xach: It is not self-evident
2014-08-17T19:39:34Z shka: ok, right
2014-08-17T19:39:56Z stacksmith: AeroNotix: Removed leave-gtk-main; Now it runs both with and without slime.  Do you know the significance of the number below the # T
2014-08-17T20:02:47Z tajjada: yours, Xach and shka
2014-08-17T20:02:48Z kristof: tajjada: (consp nil) -> nil
2014-08-17T20:02:54Z tajjada: kristof: that was my point
2014-08-17T20:03:03Z kristof: oh
2014-08-17T20:03:12Z kristof: Misread, I apologize.
2014-08-17T20:03:21Z Xach: tajjada: shka was talking about making all bindings that refer to a list value get updated when pushing
2014-08-17T20:03:27Z tajjada: when working with lists and wanting to deal with the structure, use consp rather than listp to avoid having to deal with NILs
2014-08-17T20:03:37Z tajjada: Xach: oh
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2014-08-17T20:03:49Z Xach: tajjada: if lists were always objects with mutable state, you could do that. but sometimes a list doesn't have mutable state, so there's no way to make a change that all other referents see.
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2014-08-17T20:04:53Z tajjada: i dont really get why one would want to do something like "push that updates all references" in the first place, but ok...
2014-08-17T20:05:17Z Xach: programming systems teach you not to want what they can't provide
2014-08-17T20:05:39Z tajjada: true lol
2014-08-17T20:05:45Z tajjada: that was one valuable thing that lisp taught me
2014-08-17T20:06:00Z tajjada: when i learned lisp after having written a lot of C and Java
2014-08-17T20:06:37Z tajjada: lisp makes you think outside of the box, because it actually gives you the power to add stuff to the language you may want but which isnt there
2014-08-17T20:06:48Z tajjada: so you start getting creative with how to use that flexibility
2014-08-17T20:06:53Z kristof: Nothing you can't write with simple functions.
2014-08-17T20:07:06Z kristof: A macro is just a way to hide function application, that's all.
2014-08-17T20:07:08Z AeroNotix: If a feature isn't there but it's only a macro away, is it ever really not there?
2014-08-17T20:07:10Z Xach: I've seen it have a different kind of effect, too: when something is hard to do with Common Lisp, that means it is of course a dumb thing that nobody should want to do.
2014-08-17T20:07:24Z tajjada: Xach: lol
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2014-08-17T20:07:26Z Xach: (which is bologna-tastic)
2014-08-17T20:07:39Z kristof: Anyway, if you want to "update all references", then perhaps all references should actually point to a single reference that you update atomically.
2014-08-17T20:07:39Z tajjada: but anyone defending any language could really say that
2014-08-17T20:08:06Z tajjada: ^ about the "if something is too hard you probably shouldnt be doing it"
2014-08-17T20:08:41Z Xach: kristof: it would be easier to suggest "solutions" if this was more than just newbie noodling. in this case i think it suffices to just point out why how CL works makes it not make updates like that.
2014-08-17T20:09:14Z kristof: Gotcha.
2014-08-17T20:09:42Z tajjada: i was teaching one of my friends some common lisp basics a few weeks ago, and one of the things that struck me was when he said "i am afraid to write longer code because i feel like you can pull out a one-liner solution in lisp to just about any problem i try to solve with some complex algorithm"
2014-08-17T20:09:57Z tajjada: so how hard or complex something is to do is quite relative
2014-08-17T20:10:31Z Xach: it takes a while to learn what's already provided for you by the environment.
2014-08-17T20:11:25Z tajjada: true, and common lisp tends to provide quite a lot of things...
2014-08-17T20:11:59Z Xach: for a while i collected irc quotes along the lines of  "is there a function that removes duplicates and if so what is it called" but gave up after a bunch
2014-08-17T20:12:11Z Xach: cursed obscure historical names!
2014-08-17T20:12:26Z tajjada: lol
2014-08-17T20:12:56Z jackdaniel: well, it can be solved with package called brand-new-aliases-for-obscure-historical-names ;-)
2014-08-17T20:13:23Z Xach: i think the most recent one was "is there a function to get the last N elements from a list"
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2014-08-17T20:13:59Z tajjada: ive had many epiphany moments when i was looking for some function in a common lisp reference and then i see another function in the spec that i sorta knew existed but never really thought of using, and then realized just how much work i could have saved in that last thing i wrote if only i had thought to use that function
2014-08-17T20:15:46Z Xach: i wrote some stuff like that up in lisptips.com
2014-08-17T20:15:57Z Xach: i have a couple more in the queue, i need to start adding to it again.
2014-08-17T20:16:04Z saxpy: http://www.nbabel.org/codes   ... waiting for a CL solution!
2014-08-17T20:16:47Z tajjada: Xach: omg just started reading your site
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2014-08-17T20:17:06Z tajjada: looks like there is much to be learned...
2014-08-17T20:17:13Z tajjada: thanks for that link
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2014-08-17T20:24:36Z tajjada: most of the lisptips.com are stuff i already know, but i did learn a few things (such as that equalp can compare structs), so thank you Xach for that
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2014-08-17T20:47:29Z AeroNotix: is lisptips you Xach ?
2014-08-17T20:47:38Z kristof: His face is plastered at the top
2014-08-17T20:47:56Z AeroNotix: ah
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2014-08-17T20:48:08Z AeroNotix: it's too small for my feable eyes
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2014-08-17T21:03:54Z Xach: I wrote most of lisptips.com, yes
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2014-08-17T21:05:25Z AeroNotix: you do a lot for the community, it's cool
2014-08-17T21:05:42Z Xach: A small price to pay in exchange for the money and fame
2014-08-17T21:05:59Z AeroNotix: haha
2014-08-17T21:06:13Z AeroNotix: Xach: do you write CL for a living?
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2014-08-17T21:07:05Z Xach: I do
2014-08-17T21:07:13Z Xach: What is up with this new spam technique?
2014-08-17T21:07:15Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach
2014-08-17T21:07:17Z Xach has set mode +b *!*ooo@*.Red-83-39-251.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net
2014-08-17T21:07:20Z oooooio [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (more spam)
2014-08-17T21:07:26Z AeroNotix: Xach: +R yourself
2014-08-17T21:07:27Z kristof: I'm not seeing any of this.
2014-08-17T21:07:33Z AeroNotix: kristof: are you +R?
2014-08-17T21:07:36Z kristof: Negatory.
2014-08-17T21:07:39Z Xach: How do I +R myself? /mode Xach +R?
2014-08-17T21:07:42Z AeroNotix: Xach: yeah
2014-08-17T21:07:46Z AeroNotix: I don't see it either fwiw
2014-08-17T21:07:54Z Xach: I'm getting private messages.
2014-08-17T21:08:09Z kristof: Are they clever?
2014-08-17T21:08:15Z Xach: Porn spam
2014-08-17T21:08:19Z kristof: Oh, that's not clever.
2014-08-17T21:08:21Z AeroNotix: Xach: yeah, +R yourself, you'll get rid of them (hopefully)
2014-08-17T21:08:24Z kristof: yeah, I was getting that yesterday.
2014-08-17T21:09:24Z Xach: I guess my fame makes me a target
2014-08-17T21:09:26Z Xach has set mode -o Xach
2014-08-17T21:09:27Z AeroNotix: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Common-LISP-Language-HP-Technologies-ebook/dp/B00AK9RZIQ why does this say (HP Technologies) after it?
2014-08-17T21:10:02Z Xach: AeroNotix: I don't know the exact reason, but it was originally published by Digital, and HP bought digital.
2014-08-17T21:10:10Z AeroNotix: Xach: roger
2014-08-17T21:10:48Z jackdaniel: has anyone debug ecl on "c" side? i can't get printf working on running ecl :|
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2014-08-17T21:53:55Z AeroNotix: is there a "better" library than #:cl-uri.common-lisp.net ?
2014-08-17T21:54:30Z AeroNotix: purl?
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2014-08-17T21:55:03Z AeroNotix: yeah, purl doesn't seem so horrific
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2014-08-17T22:03:39Z patrickwonders: puri is pretty standard...
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2014-08-17T22:04:19Z AeroNotix: patrickwonders: cheers. Not sure why I stumbled on that other shite first
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2014-08-17T22:07:30Z kristof: Because cliki pages are usually alphabetically organized without regard to utility or quality.
2014-08-17T22:08:08Z AeroNotix: kristof: anyone can contribute, right?
2014-08-17T22:08:31Z kristof: Oh
2014-08-17T22:08:34Z AeroNotix: I often think that maybe CL's image of being crufty is because of the visual appeal of some of its documentation and goto sites.
2014-08-17T22:08:39Z kristof: Right
2014-08-17T22:08:51Z kristof: I reorganized the concurrency page a while back into subtopics
2014-08-17T22:08:57Z AeroNotix: nice!
2014-08-17T22:09:01Z kristof: Except I never committed
2014-08-17T22:09:07Z kristof: It was sitting in a notebook here somewhere
2014-08-17T22:09:11Z nell left #lisp
2014-08-17T22:09:12Z kristof: still is, so I should go do that.
2014-08-17T22:09:21Z AeroNotix: uh, weechat segfaulted
2014-08-17T22:09:25Z kristof: LOL
2014-08-17T22:09:25Z AeroNotix: first time that's happened
2014-08-17T22:11:33Z kristof: I've never even heard of that happening before.
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2014-08-17T22:17:53Z ejbs: There should be more entries in http://cliki.net/Current%20recommended%20libraries for one
2014-08-17T22:18:23Z kristof: "good enough for government use"
2014-08-17T22:18:30Z kristof: the government is not particularly known for software quality
2014-08-17T22:19:14Z p_l: honestly, you can thank private contractors...
2014-08-17T22:19:14Z kristof: I like the parallen, concurrent, and async programming section. Would not change a bit :)
2014-08-17T22:19:39Z kristof: p_l: I remember hearing a story about the code revision policy of a part of the canadian health care system
2014-08-17T22:20:06Z kristof: p_l: They comment out the line they're changing, add a paragraph explaining what they're changing and why, and then put the new code in. We're talking about millions of lines of cobol.
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2014-08-17T22:21:42Z ejbs: The program for logs/reports at Karolinska Sjukhuset (major Swedish hospital) is written in APL
2014-08-17T22:22:10Z kristof: I'm no APL expert but my rudimentary understanding is that APL is meant for... arrays...
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2014-08-17T22:22:24Z kristof: Oh, no, I was thinking of something else.
2014-08-17T22:22:42Z kristof: Oh, that's that language by backus, isn't it? gross!
2014-08-17T22:24:05Z ejbs: APL is an array-oriented language
2014-08-17T22:24:13Z p_l: kristof: that's common with certain languages and code from before easily usable content/source management systems
2014-08-17T22:24:21Z ejbs: W/ the Greek symbols and stuff
2014-08-17T22:25:12Z p_l: kristof: or with shit like PL/SQL and codebase that remembers when rcs was rad new kid on the block, and sccs wasn't too proven either
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2014-08-17T22:25:52Z p_l: last line described stuff from a private company in Sweden, stuff that was bought in this century :>
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2014-08-17T22:28:00Z AeroNotix: are there any talks on using Lisp "at scale" ?
2014-08-17T22:28:38Z p_l: some from ITA
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2014-08-17T22:33:08Z AeroNotix: I think H*ns was working on that project (scrubbed name as to not bother him)
2014-08-17T22:33:19Z AeroNotix: iirc
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2014-08-17T22:45:16Z Xach: there was a fare search system, a very large old system, in production and powering their product, and a smaller reservation system that was deployed to only one airline customer and apparently is being scrapped
2014-08-17T22:46:16Z p_l: Xach: Wasn't it that the deal didn't exactly go right and they ended up bought partially to recover from it?
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2014-08-17T22:46:55Z Xach: I hadn't heard that, but I don't know details, just broad outlines.
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2014-08-17T22:48:16Z Xach: foom: did you have a livejournal at some point in the past?
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2014-08-17T22:50:35Z Xach: well, just random curiosity, but the feed I had labeled with something that looked like "foom" is now some fashion blog.
2014-08-17T22:50:42Z Xach removes from reader
2014-08-17T22:51:17Z Xach: never mind, it was something else. sorry for the noise.
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2014-08-17T23:04:18Z kristof is now known as Clarice
2014-08-17T23:07:55Z joe-w-bimedina: just curious has drmeister set a release date for his new compiler yet?
2014-08-17T23:08:08Z drmeister: no
2014-08-17T23:08:25Z drmeister: Still waiting for the lawyers.
2014-08-17T23:09:06Z joe-w-bimedina: ok, thanks for letting me know, If its not too much bother is there any guesstimate you can provide
2014-08-17T23:09:27Z drmeister: In the meantime I'm working on MPS garbage collection - I might have just found a crack in the problem.
2014-08-17T23:10:28Z drmeister: Nope, they haven't responded to my last couple of emails.
2014-08-17T23:10:40Z drmeister: I'll hit them up again tomorrow.
2014-08-17T23:11:30Z joe-w-bimedina: not sure what that is yet MPS, but I am glad to hear it, I'm getting everything ready to start integrating your code in my library, pretty excited:) thanks, btw your doing alot of good for alot of people
2014-08-17T23:12:29Z drmeister: The MPS is a compacting garbage collector.
2014-08-17T23:12:49Z tokenrov1 is now known as tokenrove
2014-08-17T23:12:51Z drmeister: It stands for Memory Pool System - it's put out by a group called Ravenbrook.
2014-08-17T23:12:56Z Clarice: drmeister: Oh, what were the results from removing multiple inheritance?
2014-08-17T23:13:06Z drmeister: It didn't solve the problem.
2014-08-17T23:13:10Z Clarice: Bummer.
2014-08-17T23:13:18Z Clarice: drmeister: Any observable performance improvement, though?
2014-08-17T23:13:26Z joe-w-bimedina: so compacting  makes it more efficient i'm sure, beautiful work adding that drmeister
2014-08-17T23:13:30Z Xach: I really enjoyed the ravenbrook presentation at the last ECLM/ELS.
2014-08-17T23:13:55Z drmeister: Subsequently, based on a question by brucem I reallized that I don't check the MPS message queue for finalization messages while I'm doing the looooong compile of the Common Lisp source code.
2014-08-17T23:15:18Z Clarice is now known as kristof
2014-08-17T23:15:19Z drmeister: I also discovered that if I interrupt the compilation every 10 minutes or so when it slows down and invoke the garbage collector two (2) times it cleans up massive amounts of garbage and then I can proceed at full speed again.
2014-08-17T23:16:10Z tokenrove: well, ILC just wrapped up
2014-08-17T23:16:15Z drmeister: Removing multiple inheritance will have other benefits, now I can implement a simplified version of dynamic_cast that will be much faster than the stock version.
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2014-08-17T23:16:36Z drmeister: How was ILC?
2014-08-17T23:17:23Z drmeister: I felt like I should have been there but events perspire against me.
2014-08-17T23:17:30Z tokenrove: small but really nice.
2014-08-17T23:18:01Z Xach: My first ILC was at MIT in 2009 and there were almost 300 people. I thought they were all like that, but later I realized how special it was.
2014-08-17T23:18:24Z Xach: but it's always been fun and envigorating to get together with like-minded lisp nerds
2014-08-17T23:18:54Z tokenrove: except for the panel on the future of lisp which was terribly depressing, except that it inspired me to release a bunch of CL code i've been sitting on, and try to better curate the libraries i've released in the past.  (contributing to superior implementations instead of my own 80% solutions)
2014-08-17T23:19:20Z tokenrove: i guess there were about 70 people this year.  i really regret not submitting a talk, because there weren't as many talks as i had expected.
2014-08-17T23:19:48Z tokenrove: but i got to meet a bunch of people i remember from #lisp, so that was very positive.
2014-08-17T23:20:19Z Xach: heh. sorry to hear about the depressing bit. for me that kind of wrangling is a downer too. my upper is to just keep working on stuff i like and sharing it.
2014-08-17T23:20:20Z tokenrove: xach: i had hoped that you would be at this ILC but i understand it was not possible.
2014-08-17T23:20:24Z drmeister: When should a Lisp process finalization messages?
2014-08-17T23:20:35Z Xach: tokenrove: i hoped too :( still feeling sick.
2014-08-17T23:22:34Z drmeister: The MPS library has a message queue that I have to check every now and then to invoke finalization messages.   I'm experimenting with checking the queue at a safe-point after every 10,000 allocations.
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2014-08-17T23:24:17Z drmeister: Whoops - gotta catch a train.
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2014-08-17T23:47:02Z rme: Hack more lisp!
2014-08-17T23:47:11Z kristof: Always a good option.
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2014-08-17T23:51:27Z AeroNotix: dawwww
2014-08-17T23:51:30Z AeroNotix: that was sweet <3
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2014-08-17T23:58:26Z tokenrove: hack more lisp; that's the crucial message
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2014-08-18T00:01:28Z AeroNotix: I'm tryin!
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2014-08-18T00:23:36Z lavokad: Hi, I'm strugling to understand about some concept related with macros. Post I've read say that Lisp macros aren't viable, possible in Java because of java doesn't provide the developers with the access, neither the syntax to its ASTs. That the way to implement a macro in Java would requiere to pass it ASTs as arguments, and return the desired code transformation as an AST. What I don't understand is why inside the implementation of the 'sup
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2014-08-18T00:26:30Z Bike: lavokad: you cut off at "implementation of the 'sup"
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2014-08-18T00:35:25Z lavokad: Hi, I'm strugling to understand about some concept related with macros. Post I've read say that Lisp macros aren't viable, possible in Java because of java doesn't provide the developers with the access, neither the syntax to its ASTs. That the way to implement a macro in Java would requiere to pass it ASTs as arguments, and return the desired code transformation as an AST. What I don't understand is why inside the implementation of the 'sup
2014-08-18T00:35:32Z kristof: Good lord.
2014-08-18T00:35:51Z Bike: lavokad: you cut off in the same place. don't just repeat yourself, give us the rest of the message
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2014-08-18T00:45:02Z AeroNotix: lavokad: your IRC client is probably cutting the message off due to it being the lenght of the maximum message in IRC
2014-08-18T00:50:45Z kristof: For those of you who want to answer his question: 'supposed Java macro' must we talk in AST language? Wouldn't that inside code be already a AST because it was parsed? As an example, this could  be the definition of java unless macro: unless(e,f){if (e) null else f;}
2014-08-18T00:51:48Z Bike: lavokad: oh, that's a semi-common misconception. imagine unless(something, foo++). foo is incremented even if something is false.
2014-08-18T00:52:31Z kristof: I imagine that there would be some declaration of unless as a macro which would prevent that.
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2014-08-18T00:53:05Z kristof: He's asking why it's so hard to get the AST representation of the Java code since the compiler's doing it anyway, not why macros can't be replaced by functions.
2014-08-18T00:53:44Z Bike: oh. because java does not define any AST representation (as far as I know) and different compilers can do whatever they like. furthermore any ASTs they do define wouldn't have to be around at runtime, so there goes quotation.
2014-08-18T00:54:25Z kristof: Runtime ast presence isn't important for quotation unless you want eval.
2014-08-18T00:55:03Z Bike: well i uh, do. quotation doesn't just mean symbols.
2014-08-18T00:55:12Z kristof: Ah okay :)
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2014-08-18T01:33:05Z tokenrove: in c# one can get and manipulate the ast, and the compiler can be invoked programmatically, but it doesn't mean it's at all easy or fun to implement macros in it.
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2014-08-18T01:36:06Z |3b|: a lot of those languages probably have a more complicated 'tokenize' step in parsing than CL does, so your macro would probably need to hook into that as well
2014-08-18T01:39:28Z |3b|: but like most comparisons between turing-complete languages, it isn't a question of 'possible' so much as 'practical' or 'convenient' or 'not confusing'
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2014-08-18T02:05:07Z Aranshada|M: Started reading Let Over Lambda, saw something interesting in the table of contents, and jumped to read the appendices. The author bashes emacs ands recommends vi. I was astonished.
2014-08-18T02:06:23Z Xach: I don't think it's generally a very good book.
2014-08-18T02:06:40Z Xach: It has interesting info if you can put it in context and apply your own judgement, but I don't think it should be a first book.
2014-08-18T02:07:20Z Xach: I think it's fine to prefer vi, I just don't think it's a very good book.
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2014-08-18T02:08:12Z Aranshada|M: It's not, at least for me. I had planned to read it after Paul Graham's stuff, but was just scanning the TOC and it caught my eye.
2014-08-18T02:08:39Z Aranshada|M: I thought there was a stigma of "emacs is best."
2014-08-18T02:08:42Z Xach: I'm not an especial fan of Paul Graham's take on Common Lisp, either.
2014-08-18T02:09:10Z Xach: Aranshada|M: I think emacs is best, but I know several really good hackers who just don't click with emacs, and I don't think it's because they're clueless.
2014-08-18T02:09:21Z Aranshada|M: Well, I'm almost done with Practical Common Lisp.
2014-08-18T02:09:46Z Xach: I think the local maximum of emacs can make it hard to imagine better ways of working sometimes.
2014-08-18T02:10:19Z Aranshada|M: I know I have some bookmarks from last week I need to go through with free online books and sources.
2014-08-18T02:11:20Z Aranshada|M: My thing is, I already know vim pretty well. And I don't need what emacs offers... I think.
2014-08-18T02:11:46Z Aranshada|M: Maybe I do. I've trying to learn it, but it just seems so foreign.
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2014-08-18T02:13:16Z Xach: I've heard of a few people getting happy with one of the vi modes of emacs for use with CL hacking.
2014-08-18T02:13:21Z Aranshada|M: Like, I don't see how they thought Ctrl + fbnp was a good idea. And it makes me resist. I keep thinking "this would be so much faster and simpler in vim."
2014-08-18T02:13:46Z Aranshada|M: I haven't toed with that yet. I'll look into that tonight.
2014-08-18T02:13:57Z Aranshada|M: Toyed*
2014-08-18T02:14:09Z Xach: I can't remember which one was recommended. I want to say evil, but I'm not sure.
2014-08-18T02:14:16Z loke: Xach: Someone said that the vi emulation in Emacs is the "best vi"
2014-08-18T02:14:37Z Aranshada|M: I know of evil.
2014-08-18T02:14:43Z Xach: I started with Emacs so I'm used to it.
2014-08-18T02:14:48Z loke: Aranshada|M: I think that's the one
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2014-08-18T02:15:00Z Xach: And slime is a very supportive CL hacking environment in many respects.
2014-08-18T02:15:00Z dlowe: I tried evil and it was easier for me just to learn emacs
2014-08-18T02:15:04Z loke: Xach: me too. But if evil can make more people come to Emacs, good on them
2014-08-18T02:15:45Z dlowe: the jury is still out on god-mode
2014-08-18T02:15:52Z Aranshada|M: I've been messing around with slimv. It's not bad. But then, I can't compare it to anything but vim without lisp repl integration.
2014-08-18T02:15:59Z Xach: Anyway, http://xach.com/rpw3/articles/BJqdnd9R65ee3qDbnZ2dnUVZ_vGinZ2d%40speakeasy.net.html resonated with me regarding which editor to use.
2014-08-18T02:16:26Z Xach: Whatever you use to edit, also make supportive functions for interactive use to help yourself out.
2014-08-18T02:17:04Z Xach: "*Use* the Lisp environment you make your life easier!!"
2014-08-18T02:17:40Z Aranshada|M: I do like the evaluation and compilation stuff from what I've used of slime.
2014-08-18T02:18:13Z Aranshada|M: I'll keep trying. Thanks.
2014-08-18T02:19:10Z Xach: I find the debugging stuff pretty helpful too. Being able to jump to the exact form that signaled the error is great. Being able to jump to other frame sources is great.
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2014-08-18T02:19:27Z Xach: And the inspector is very handy for seeing/killing individual methods in a generic function
2014-08-18T02:19:52Z Xach thinks back to http://slime-tips.tumblr.com/
2014-08-18T02:20:27Z Aranshada|M: Always a wealth of information here. :)
2014-08-18T02:20:53Z Xach: I misread your nickname as "Araneida" and it frightened me a bit
2014-08-18T02:21:00Z Aranshada|M: Eh?
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2014-08-18T02:22:15Z Xach: araneida is an old lisp web server that was sometimes a little crotchety
2014-08-18T02:22:50Z Aranshada|M: Ha. I can totally be crotchety sometimes.
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2014-08-18T02:53:31Z acebulf: hey all
2014-08-18T02:53:51Z acebulf: I want to write to a new file, and thus I
2014-08-18T02:53:57Z acebulf: I'm trying to run the line
2014-08-18T02:54:13Z acebulf: (setq wf (open "text.txt "w"))
2014-08-18T02:54:23Z Xach: Are you using Common Lisp?
2014-08-18T02:54:41Z acebulf: but It's giving me "Incorrect keyword arguments in ("w")"
2014-08-18T02:54:43Z acebulf: yes
2014-08-18T02:55:02Z Xach: acebulf: what you used is not how OPEN is specified.
2014-08-18T02:55:21Z acebulf: how would you specify open?
2014-08-18T02:55:28Z |3b|: clhs with-open-file
2014-08-18T02:55:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_open.htm
2014-08-18T02:55:34Z |3b| uses that ^ usually
2014-08-18T02:55:42Z Xach: acebulf: If you'd like to open a file for writing, use (open filename :direction :output). But it is much more typical to use (with-open-file (stream file :direction :output) )
2014-08-18T02:56:15Z Xach: You will likely need more options if you want to do something specific in the case of the file already existing, and some other situations.
2014-08-18T02:56:29Z Xach: acebulf: out of curiosity, what prompted you to use a second argument of "w"?
2014-08-18T02:57:26Z acebulf: I basically thought it would enable write, also the guide I was using might be a different dialect
2014-08-18T02:57:53Z Xach: Oh. I think you'll run into a lot of problems by going off intuition, at least initially.
2014-08-18T02:58:06Z acebulf: :P seems like you're right
2014-08-18T02:58:18Z Xach: There are some good books on Common Lisp and it has a very thorough and readable specification, with an online version.
2014-08-18T02:58:38Z Xach: Well, it's readable with practice. After you get used to parsing it, it is a great resource.
2014-08-18T02:59:47Z acebulf: Yeah, there is a similar thing with Python, which is great stuff once you get used to the format
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2014-08-18T03:00:29Z Xach: i really like Practical Common Lisp as a book to get started, and it's available entirely online.
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2014-08-18T03:00:50Z Xach: There are several other books online, too, if it doesn't grab you.
2014-08-18T03:00:50Z acebulf: "that book is dead sexy —Xach on #lisp"
2014-08-18T03:01:02Z Aranshada|M: Yep.
2014-08-18T03:01:06Z Xach: thanks - i get royalties whenever someone mentions it!
2014-08-18T03:01:07Z acebulf: :P seems you're pretty famous around here
2014-08-18T03:01:13Z Xach so many picodollars
2014-08-18T03:01:15Z acebulf: haha
2014-08-18T03:01:27Z acebulf: 1/1000th of a DogeCoin
2014-08-18T03:01:28Z Aranshada|M: That's what promoted me too come to #lisp.
2014-08-18T03:01:34Z acebulf: same, actually
2014-08-18T03:02:13Z Xach: Welcome, friends! Hacks and glory await!
2014-08-18T03:02:45Z acebulf: woohoo!
2014-08-18T03:02:53Z phadthai: lemonodor fame is but a hack away
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2014-08-18T03:04:44Z acebulf: I just got to the part where he redirects the stdout in like one line
2014-08-18T03:06:08Z Xach: acebulf: this is a pretty good place for help, but I like it most when there's some evidence of reading good resources and trying what they suggest
2014-08-18T03:06:40Z Xach: Basic questions are ok if there is effort & progress & understanding. Otherwise I mostly get wicked frustrated.
2014-08-18T03:07:20Z acebulf: allright! I'll do my reading.
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2014-08-18T03:34:28Z acebulf: hahaha the defmacro story is gold
2014-08-18T03:35:07Z Aranshada|M: Oh man. You are really close to the beginning.
2014-08-18T03:35:19Z Aranshada|M: You have some good ahead of you.
2014-08-18T03:35:30Z acebulf: yeah
2014-08-18T03:35:34Z Aranshada|M: Gold*
2014-08-18T03:35:53Z acebulf: is it like that pretty much the whole way through?
2014-08-18T03:36:20Z Aranshada|M: Not do much with anecdotes. But just generally a good book.
2014-08-18T03:38:08Z Aranshada|M: I tried reading On Lisp thinking it was an intro book.
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2014-08-18T03:38:39Z Aranshada|M: Them I read Practical Common Lisp, and I can actually understand On Lisp now.
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2014-08-18T05:02:04Z theos: on lisp is an advanced book. read practical common lisp first.
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2014-08-18T09:06:22Z pnpuff: Anyone know if there are some videos available from the latest International Lisp Conference ?
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2014-08-18T09:57:02Z wasamasa: pnpuff: JordiGH from #emacs said they're going to be paywalled
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2014-08-18T10:09:17Z pnpuff: wasamasa: I'm searching for the topics of the ILC2014 program. There is a lot of material.
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2014-08-18T10:14:24Z pnpuff: I was searching for somethong about Kilns (a Lisp based on pi-calculus) and I was reading an extensive documentation written by Fare about using CL as a scripting language.
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2014-08-18T10:15:17Z pnpuff: There is a paywall for the article about Kilns
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2014-08-18T10:19:48Z wasamasa: welp
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2014-08-18T10:49:32Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: that's sad
2014-08-18T10:51:49Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: yeah, I actually wanted to watch what stefan monnier wanted to say there
2014-08-18T10:51:56Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: guess I can forget about that now
2014-08-18T10:52:22Z AeroNotix: I find there's more of a tendency to paywall stuff in the Lisp community
2014-08-18T10:52:24Z AeroNotix: for better or worse
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2014-08-18T10:53:04Z wasamasa: I thought only news magazines would do it
2014-08-18T10:53:17Z wasamasa: oh and science magazines, too
2014-08-18T10:53:22Z wasamasa: guess I was wrong
2014-08-18T10:53:25Z AeroNotix: We'll see, if it's cheap enough (i.e. pay for the whole set of videos, maybe.)
2014-08-18T10:53:30Z AeroNotix: on priciple I disgree with it
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2014-08-18T11:25:45Z Cymew: Are you referring to the ACM article? That is just the std ACM behaviour, and has nothing to do with the lisp community
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2014-08-18T11:38:11Z tokenrove: the proceedings are supposed to be freely available for the duration of the conference, so they may not be now although i'd be surprised if it changed already.
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2014-08-18T11:52:17Z Cymew: I just read back from the logs. They are almost useless with all those join/leave and other noise.
2014-08-18T11:52:42Z tokenrove: /ignore #lisp joins parts quits nicks
2014-08-18T11:52:58Z Cymew: Doesn't work that well on the logs, sadly...
2014-08-18T11:53:11Z H4ns: Cymew: you found yourself a job!
2014-08-18T11:53:26Z Cymew: Yeah, just what I was was thinking. ;)
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2014-08-18T11:56:54Z pnpuff`: Cymew: othre solution:  you've to parse the logs output to eliminate the useless rows
2014-08-18T11:57:11Z pnpuff`: *other :)
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2014-08-18T11:59:33Z edgar-rft: Cymew: I usually download the log-file from http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ and then I do: grep -E -v 'names:|joined|left|quit|is now known as' lisp-2014-08.txt | less
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2014-08-18T12:03:27Z H4ns: one could also write a tampermonkey script that does it automatically for lisp log urls
2014-08-18T12:03:43Z H4ns: fucking spammers here recently.
2014-08-18T12:04:03Z p_l: H4ns: anyone in particular?
2014-08-18T12:04:38Z AeroNotix: H4ns: put yourself as +R
2014-08-18T12:04:41Z H4ns: p_l: damn, i closed the buffer already.  but since a few days, i often get spam privmsgs when i say something in #lisp
2014-08-18T12:04:49Z H4ns: AeroNotix: what does that mean?
2014-08-18T12:04:58Z AeroNotix: H4ns: only registered users can pm you
2014-08-18T12:05:00Z p_l: H4ns: only registered users can pm
2014-08-18T12:05:11Z tokenrove: curated logs, like a daily summary of interesting events with an index into the logs, would be even more useful, but a fair bit of work, alas.
2014-08-18T12:05:12Z H4ns: hm
2014-08-18T12:05:55Z wasamasa: hmm
2014-08-18T12:05:56Z H4ns: AeroNotix: how would i do that?
2014-08-18T12:06:03Z AeroNotix: H4ns: /mode H4ns +R
2014-08-18T12:06:14Z wasamasa: I've considered trying out the "Lambda Architecture" by parsing irc logs incrementally into a database
2014-08-18T12:06:18Z H4ns: AeroNotix: thanks!
2014-08-18T12:06:25Z AeroNotix: H4ns: no worries :)
2014-08-18T12:06:42Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: I have a half finished application to take all my (10GB!) IRC logs and index them with ElasticSearch
2014-08-18T12:07:06Z AeroNotix: then provide a web page to view it all
2014-08-18T12:07:15Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: isn't elasticsearch this java thing?
2014-08-18T12:07:28Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: yeah, it's shit for a lot (read: a lot!) of stuff
2014-08-18T12:07:33Z AeroNotix: but full text search, it's amazing at
2014-08-18T12:07:38Z AeroNotix: maybe you would even just need Lucene
2014-08-18T12:07:52Z wasamasa: maybe I'd just need montezuma
2014-08-18T12:08:00Z AeroNotix googles montezuma
2014-08-18T12:08:13Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: link?
2014-08-18T12:08:27Z wasamasa: https://code.google.com/p/montezuma/
2014-08-18T12:08:42Z AeroNotix: oh cool!
2014-08-18T12:08:48Z wasamasa: "Montezuma is a Common Lisp port of Ferret. Ferret is a Ruby port of Lucene. Lucene is sort of Doug Cutting's Java version of Text Database (TDB), which he and Jan Pedersen developed at Xerox PARC, and which, to complete the circle, was written in Common Lisp (see "An Object-Oriented Architecture for Text Retrieval")."
2014-08-18T12:09:31Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: have you used it?
2014-08-18T12:09:37Z wasamasa: said ferret thing acquired it's speed after being rewritten in C mostly
2014-08-18T12:09:40Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: nope
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2014-08-18T12:10:00Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: the only stuff I've done in CL so far is firing up the SBCL repl and redoing the database example from PCL
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2014-08-18T12:10:23Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: ah, gotcha
2014-08-18T12:10:51Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: I had this idea of creating an irc bot in CL that is mostly useful for me and text indexing my irc logs would be pretty important for this to happen, so I researched and found this library
2014-08-18T12:11:25Z AeroNotix: I keep sometimes thinking that indexing my IRC logs would be useful, but then I never even grep my logs
2014-08-18T12:11:28Z AeroNotix: they just... exist
2014-08-18T12:11:36Z wasamasa: I grep my logs sometimes
2014-08-18T12:11:45Z wasamasa: I'd really like to ping a bot I own and get backlog
2014-08-18T12:11:59Z wasamasa: and a bunch of other things
2014-08-18T12:12:18Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: do you use ZNC?
2014-08-18T12:12:29Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: yes I do and no, I'm not too impressed
2014-08-18T12:12:38Z pnpuff`: I've received a spam message ...
2014-08-18T12:12:49Z AeroNotix: pnpuff`: +R yourself :)
2014-08-18T12:12:59Z pnpuff`: raaamina: don't send me this kind of messages, please
2014-08-18T12:13:02Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: huh, it Just Works.
2014-08-18T12:13:05Z pnpuff`: thx
2014-08-18T12:13:07Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: enabled its watch plugin because I didn't feel like writing my own watch extension for my irc client
2014-08-18T12:13:20Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: and it sends me *everything* containing my link
2014-08-18T12:13:31Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: which includes messages originating from a channel including my nick
2014-08-18T12:13:35Z ChanServ has set mode +o p_l
2014-08-18T12:13:37Z p_l has set mode +b $r:rr
2014-08-18T12:13:39Z AeroNotix: oh ok
2014-08-18T12:13:54Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: as for the other stuff, it feels massively over-engineered to me
2014-08-18T12:13:55Z raaamina [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has been kicked from #lisp by p_l (Second time now...)
2014-08-18T12:14:10Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: so I just use the basic features for now
2014-08-18T12:14:30Z AeroNotix: gotcha
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2014-08-18T12:14:32Z AeroNotix: I need food badly
2014-08-18T12:14:35Z AeroNotix: afk
2014-08-18T12:15:25Z p_l has set mode -b *!*rr@90.174.5.*
2014-08-18T12:15:42Z p_l: $r:rr should work a bit better than the too-specific ban
2014-08-18T12:15:45Z rpg quit (Quit: rpg)
2014-08-18T12:15:52Z wasamasa: pnpuff`: what did that person send you?
2014-08-18T12:15:58Z wasamasa: pnpuff`: something about webcams in spanish?
2014-08-18T12:17:01Z mrSpec joined #lisp
2014-08-18T12:17:28Z pnpuff`: wasamasa: show gratis (solo hooy) --> http://s422803032.mialojamiento.es/
2014-08-18T12:17:43Z pnpuff`: wasamasa: but its' not interesting at all for the channel
2014-08-18T12:17:50Z JuanDaugherty: no it's not
2014-08-18T12:18:23Z p_l: anyway, unless they change config on the bot, they aren't getting in
2014-08-18T12:18:50Z AeroNotix: I clicked on it, it was a webcam of a fishtank
2014-08-18T12:18:55Z AeroNotix: HOT STUFF
2014-08-18T12:19:29Z wasamasa: pnpuff`: yes, exactly that
2014-08-18T12:19:40Z wasamasa: pnpuff`: well, thanks, now that bot won't bother me again
2014-08-18T12:19:47Z przl joined #lisp
2014-08-18T12:19:59Z wasamasa: p_l: I think I've seen the bot use different nicks, let me grep my logs
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2014-08-18T12:20:23Z p_l: wasamasa: it's not the nick that I used to ban it :)
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2014-08-18T12:20:32Z wasamasa: oh right
2014-08-18T12:20:50Z p_l: similarly there's a ton of spammers who leave "ircap" in the "real name" field
2014-08-18T12:21:16Z wasamasa: and the previous encounter I've had was k-lined on #lisp
2014-08-18T12:21:33Z wasamasa: by you!
2014-08-18T12:21:36Z wasamasa: so, thanks again
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2014-08-18T12:22:02Z AeroNotix: p_l: https://gist.github.com/AeroNotix/f1f1ae397a5261003c1e
2014-08-18T12:22:45Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2014-08-18T12:23:13Z p_l: one of them was running with r:freechat, this is now also on banlist
2014-08-18T12:24:18Z p_l: unfortunately, #lisp is getting close to needing +L in channel flags - our ban list is hitting limit from time to time, and we have no record of who was banned for what and when
2014-08-18T12:25:29Z prxq: some chans on other nets have a banbot for that kind of duties
2014-08-18T12:25:47Z AeroNotix: p_l: what about only allowing registered nicks?
2014-08-18T12:26:36Z pnpuff`: AeroNotix: maybe is not a good solution
2014-08-18T12:26:47Z AeroNotix: pnpuff`: why
2014-08-18T12:26:52Z p_l: AeroNotix: I won't make the change by myself - if there's big enough consensus, then mayeb
2014-08-18T12:26:55Z p_l: *maybe
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2014-08-18T12:27:10Z H4ns: i'm not in favour of banning non-registered nicks
2014-08-18T12:27:17Z AeroNotix: p_l: personally I think it's a good idea. Most long-term and thoughtful IRC users are registered users.
2014-08-18T12:27:27Z AeroNotix: I could see the value in allowing unregistered nicks, though
2014-08-18T12:27:36Z AeroNotix: For new users, one-time questions etc
2014-08-18T12:27:43Z H4ns: AeroNotix: this is not a channel that specifically addresses long-term irc users.
2014-08-18T12:27:50Z AeroNotix: H4ns: indede
2014-08-18T12:27:54Z AeroNotix: indeed*
2014-08-18T12:28:08Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: considering the #rails users manage registering nicks with nickserv, I don't see any problem imposing this restriction here
2014-08-18T12:28:18Z AeroNotix: Up to the mods
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2014-08-18T12:28:30Z AeroNotix: ok I desperately need food now
2014-08-18T12:28:54Z prxq: anythink that makes it hard for new users should be avoided.
2014-08-18T12:29:11Z pnpuff`: it's right
2014-08-18T12:29:15Z prxq: imo, anyway
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2014-08-18T12:33:53Z Krystof: I'm inclined to agree
2014-08-18T12:33:54Z drmeister: What are some good implementation dependent options to have COMPILE-FILE deposit the FASL file in a different directory relative to the input file?
2014-08-18T12:34:17Z Krystof: I suspect that clearing the channel banlist completely on quiet days wouldn't noticeably affect the overall moderation load
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2014-08-18T12:35:02Z drmeister: I've got four different configurations of my Common Lisp system that I build and I don't want their fasl files overwriting each other.
2014-08-18T12:35:32Z drmeister: MinimalCL/Boehm, FullCL/Boehm, MinimalCL/MPS, FullCL/MPS
2014-08-18T12:35:44Z Krystof: change the fasl extension for each of them?
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2014-08-18T12:36:31Z drmeister: I tried that, it turned out to be a bad idea because some of the LLVM tools I use depend on files having particular extensions (like ".bc" for bitcode files).
2014-08-18T12:37:09Z Krystof: then the traditional answer is to stick identifying stuff in the directory of the output pathname
2014-08-18T12:37:10Z drmeister: I have CL source files in a variety of directories like ECL    I have src/lsp, src/cmp, src/clos
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2014-08-18T12:37:36Z Krystof: e.g. (compile-file-pathname "src/lsp/foo.lsp") => ".local/drmeistercl/minimal/boehm/foo.bc"
2014-08-18T12:37:40Z Krystof: oops
2014-08-18T12:37:45Z prxq: drmeister: add a dot to the extension. like file.implcode.fasl, with the extension being implcode.fasl
2014-08-18T12:37:55Z Krystof: ".local/drmeistercl/minimal/boehm/src/lsp/foo.bc"
2014-08-18T12:37:57Z Krystof: adjust to taste
2014-08-18T12:38:07Z prxq: i mean. thats an idea :-)
2014-08-18T12:38:14Z drmeister: I was thinking of putting  src/lsp FASL files for MinimalCL/Boehm in  src/lsp/build/min-boehm   and FullCL/MPS in src/lsp/build/full-mps
2014-08-18T12:39:18Z Krystof: drmeister: as long as compile-file-pathname is consistent with what you actually do, you should be OK
2014-08-18T12:39:48Z Krystof: alternatively, if this is for your build process only, you can use the :output-file option to compile-file
2014-08-18T12:40:05Z drmeister: How would you specify that to COMPILE-FILE using an implementation dependent keyword parameter?
2014-08-18T12:40:20Z drmeister: And COMPILE-FILE-PATHNAME
2014-08-18T12:41:05Z Krystof: you wouldn't.  You'd have that be the thing that gets computed, per implementation strategy
2014-08-18T12:41:07Z Krystof: so something like
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2014-08-18T12:43:42Z drmeister: Surely you would?   Something like (COMPILE-FILE "src/lsp/foundation.lsp" :TARGET "full/mps") --> ".local/common-lisp/build/full/mps/src/lsp/foundation.bc"
2014-08-18T12:43:58Z Krystof: (defun compile-file-pathname (x &key output-file &allow-other-keys) (if output-file output-file (merge-pathnames (make-pathname :extension "bc") (merge-pathnames x (make-pathname :directory #+(and boehm minimal) "~/.local/drmeistercl/boehm/minimal/")))))
2014-08-18T12:44:20Z Krystof: drmeister: can your compiler output all four forms of fasl files from one image?
2014-08-18T12:44:52Z Krystof: if so, then your way is right, except that :target is spelt :output-file (which is a standard keyword argument to compile-file / compile-file-pathname)
2014-08-18T12:44:53Z pnpuff`: drmeister: we're impatient to see your compiler! possiby free of charge ...
2014-08-18T12:45:18Z Krystof: if not, then you implement compile-file-pathname so that it gives the right answer for whatever mode your compiler has been built for
2014-08-18T12:45:21Z pnpuff`: *possibly
2014-08-18T12:46:27Z drmeister: I think one image can generate all four versions but I'm not sure.    Right now I generate two images (Boehm and MPS) and I just need them not to clobber each others FASL files.
2014-08-18T12:46:34Z pnpuff`: ... we need something to use in place of Julia
2014-08-18T12:47:03Z drmeister: pnpuff`: Thanks.   It will be available soon - and yes, free.
2014-08-18T12:48:21Z drmeister: pnpuff`: I'm just waiting for our University lawyers to give me the green light to open source it.
2014-08-18T12:48:59Z drmeister: In the meantime I'm cleaning it up, making it faster and making compacting garbage collection work.
2014-08-18T12:49:13Z pnpuff`: drmeister: ok ... I hope in the green light
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2014-08-18T12:49:58Z wasamasa: drmeister: what exactly are you working on?
2014-08-18T12:50:01Z drmeister: Krystof: I discovered last night that much of my problem with MPS was that I wasn't processing finalization messages in a timely manner.   When I do routinely process finalization messages the system was able to compile itself.
2014-08-18T12:50:15Z pnpuff`: ... and I hope into the extensions of the backends
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2014-08-18T12:50:24Z drmeister: wasamasa:  A new Common Lisp implementation in C++ that interoperates with C++.
2014-08-18T12:50:56Z wasamasa: drmeister: and C I hope :P
2014-08-18T12:51:20Z drmeister: Yes - any LLVM based language.
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2014-08-18T12:51:30Z wasamasa: nice
2014-08-18T12:51:31Z drmeister: The problem child is C++.
2014-08-18T12:52:04Z drmeister: classes, virtual functions, overloading, exception handling, RAII - it works with all of that.
2014-08-18T12:52:27Z drmeister: It uses template programming to make it easy to expose C++ libraries in Clasp (the name of the Common Lisp).
2014-08-18T12:52:39Z TomRS` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2014-08-18T12:53:33Z drmeister: It exposes the LLVM C++ library and the Clang compiler library so it has a built in killer app - it lets you write C++ refactoring tools that use the Clang compiler front end to build AST's and interrogate them and generate replacement code.
2014-08-18T12:53:40Z TomRS`` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2014-08-18T12:54:14Z drmeister: It's meant to be a high-performance dynamic programming language for technical computing. (Stolen from the description of Julia).
2014-08-18T12:55:17Z pnpuff`: drmeister: we've to support more backends if it's possible
2014-08-18T12:55:46Z drmeister: pnpuff`: I don't understand - could you elaborate?
2014-08-18T12:56:29Z pnpuff`: there is a lot of good work concerning numerics even in the Java world
2014-08-18T12:59:00Z pnpuff`: we can't be without alternatives respect to scala or clojure (just to make some examples)
2014-08-18T12:59:08Z pnpuff`: or perl with PDL
2014-08-18T12:59:24Z pnpuff`: or python with Ipython
2014-08-18T12:59:42Z pnpuff`: we need our well integrated tools
2014-08-18T13:00:00Z pnpuff`: with other existing languages
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2014-08-18T13:00:56Z wasamasa: ipython isn't numerics though
2014-08-18T13:01:08Z wasamasa: it's just a way of demonstrating live coding
2014-08-18T13:01:08Z pnpuff`: yes, right...
2014-08-18T13:01:25Z wasamasa: you probably thought of every other python library facilitating fast data processing
2014-08-18T13:01:33Z wasamasa: like numpy, pandas, scipy, sympy, ...
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2014-08-18T13:04:43Z pnpuff`: wasamasa: was just an example: eeven Julia has IJulia
2014-08-18T13:05:01Z wasamasa: mhh
2014-08-18T13:05:11Z pnpuff`: sure, it's just a tool to simplify some tasks
2014-08-18T13:05:15Z wasamasa: for some reason a bunch of languages go for implementing their own backends for ipython
2014-08-18T13:05:18Z wasamasa: except CL :P
2014-08-18T13:05:26Z wasamasa: https://github.com/Inaimathi/cl-notebook
2014-08-18T13:05:30Z wasamasa: this is pretty cool
2014-08-18T13:06:23Z pnpuff`: yes
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2014-08-18T13:14:32Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: looks good
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2014-08-18T13:14:55Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: I'm more interested in the notetaking part though, might make a better org-mode for me
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2014-08-18T13:15:36Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: I never got into org-mode either
2014-08-18T13:15:44Z wasamasa: since I can define my own markup
2014-08-18T13:15:48Z wasamasa: which is pretty sweet
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2014-08-18T13:20:47Z wasamasa: I'm slightly worried about its persistence engine, but whatever, it works :P
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2014-08-18T13:25:13Z pnpuff`: I'm worried about Matlab :)
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2014-08-18T14:22:45Z drmeister: Krystof: I think I'll add an implementation dependent keyword parameter to COMPILE-FILE and COMPILE-FILE-PATHNAME called :TARGET-BACKEND   that will put the FASL files in a separate directory hierarchy for a particular backend.
2014-08-18T14:23:19Z drmeister: Different backends will then be defined by the compiled executable and *feature* values.
2014-08-18T14:25:43Z drmeister: There is no function in CL for bundling/linking multiple fasl files into one library/executable etc - why not?
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2014-08-18T14:26:39Z prxq: drmeister: too platform dependent for a standard
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2014-08-18T14:38:33Z easye: minion: memo for stassats: would you like to migrate paste.lisp.org to the new common-lisp.net host?  We're rebooting the old container to hope it comes back up.
2014-08-18T14:38:35Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell stassats when he/she/it next speaks.
2014-08-18T14:39:18Z prxq: hi easye
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2014-08-18T14:40:20Z easye: prxq: yes?
2014-08-18T14:40:34Z prxq: easye: just hello :-)
2014-08-18T14:41:01Z easye: Well, a good day to you, sirrah.  You make it to ILC 2014?
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2014-08-18T14:41:18Z ChibaPet: 'Sirrah' is in fact an insult.
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2014-08-18T14:42:24Z easye: ChibaPet: really?  I neither knew nor intended.
2014-08-18T14:42:55Z ChibaPet: Mm.
2014-08-18T14:43:36Z prxq: in any case, no, no ILC 2014 for me.
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2014-08-18T14:44:19Z easye: Netither for me.  I understand the proceedings are online from the ACM, but I can't seem to get any sort of download.  Do I need to sign in with an ACM membership or something?
2014-08-18T14:44:35Z ChibaPet: ACM or ALU?
2014-08-18T14:44:53Z TomRS````: Sirrah = α Andromedae :)
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2014-08-18T14:45:09Z Xach: ChibaPet: the ACM
2014-08-18T14:45:26Z Xach: easye: they were available freely during the conference but i do not think they are still available freely
2014-08-18T14:45:48Z easye: I dunno.  I'm referring to the reddit post 
2014-08-18T14:45:55Z eudoxia_: if you click on 'table of contents' you can see links to individual PDFs
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2014-08-18T14:46:28Z Xach: The PDFs are not available for free download any more.
2014-08-18T14:46:40Z Xach: At least, not through any set of clicks I can come up with.
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2014-08-18T14:46:45Z easye: eudoxia_: Ah.  So I missed my chance to download.  Thanks for clearing that up.
2014-08-18T14:46:51Z easye: Xach:  did you attend?
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2014-08-18T14:47:02Z Xach: easye: no. i've been ill, unfortunately.
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2014-08-18T14:47:20Z Xach: had to cancel at the last minute.
2014-08-18T14:47:23Z easye: Oh.  Sorry to hear that.  Summertime ain't fun to be  sick in.
2014-08-18T14:47:32Z Xach: nope. missed a nice family camping trip too. ah well.
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2014-08-18T15:00:32Z easye: Did Fare have a text to go with his panel "The Next Move for Lisp"?
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2014-08-18T15:16:56Z tokenrove: no
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2014-08-18T15:18:05Z tokenrove: the panel was very ad hoc and probably the worst part of the conference.  the executive summary should be rme's statement: hack more lisp!
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2014-08-18T15:21:46Z Aranshada|W: Just got evil working. All the benefits of an emacs/slime environment with all of my familiar keybinds.
2014-08-18T15:21:59Z Xach: Don't jinx it
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2014-08-18T15:22:05Z Aranshada|W: =\
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2014-08-18T15:24:20Z drmeister: What is the point of LOAD-LOGICAL-PATHNAME-TRANSLATIONS?    Is it so that sysadmins can create local logical pathname translations and store them in a central directory?
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2014-08-18T15:26:42Z drmeister: I'm thinking of defining the logical hosts "min-boehm" "full-boehm" "min-mps" "full-mps" under which I will write the FASL files for the compiled system code for these various backends.
2014-08-18T15:27:40Z drmeister: I'm wondering if this is the most Common Lisp congruent approach to generating system files for different back-ends
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2014-08-18T15:29:19Z Xach: Logical pathnames work best when the names appear in code or are generated by Common Lisp code, not determined by something external. And if you want it to be for real portability of name references, you have to be prepared to enumerate all the lisp-side names and provide a system-side traget.
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2014-08-18T15:29:57Z Xach: It's potentially a one-way translation, not a bidirectional mapping.
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2014-08-18T15:31:41Z Xach: I don't understand your problem, though, so sorry if this isn't helpful additional info.
2014-08-18T15:31:44Z Xach clams up
2014-08-18T15:32:29Z ejbs: Soo, will the people who didn't attend ILC get any summaries or so of the talks? Does anyone know?
2014-08-18T15:32:41Z drmeister: Thanks, I appreciate the input but I'm not quite following.  There is a load-logical-pathname-translations function in the standard.  The ECL takes (load-logical-pathname-translations HOST) and reads the file sys:HOST.translations and creates logical-pathname-translations from the contents of that file.
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2014-08-18T15:33:02Z Xach: ejbs: In the past, that has been done informally by people blogging about it. I don't know who among the attendees might take that on this time around.
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2014-08-18T15:34:19Z Xach: drmeister: CLTL2 has more about the intent and potential use of logical pathnames than the standard.
2014-08-18T15:35:01Z drmeister: Ah, my copy is at home - I'll look into that later.'
2014-08-18T15:35:20Z ejbs: Xach: Ok, thanks for the info :)
2014-08-18T15:35:21Z Xach: drmeister: one example is an application that has to run on a system with restricted filenames (e.g. 8.3), so the application uses something like "app:configuration;fonts.conf" in the code which is then translated by loading the target site's translations to "c:\app\config\fonts.cnf"
2014-08-18T15:35:31Z Xach: not a cltl2 example, but a general example
2014-08-18T15:35:58Z Xach: drmeister: it's harder to imagine that sort of thing now that unixy pathnames are so ubiquitous, but
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2014-08-18T15:36:41Z Xach: drmeister: i have used logical pathnames to swap between dev and production sets of input & config files, though.
2014-08-18T15:37:06Z drmeister: What I was thinking of doing was adding the keyword :TARGET-BACKEND to COMPILE-FILE and COMPILE-FILE-PATHNAME that would use the value of that keyword argument as a logical host that would define the host of the output pathname generated from the input pathname.
2014-08-18T15:37:19Z Xach: There are other ways to do it (like with config parameters or special variables). I want to practice with logical pathnames more because I think they are more maligned than they deserve.
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2014-08-18T15:38:20Z drmeister knows that people fear that which they do not understand
2014-08-18T15:38:27Z Xach: drmeister: do you have an enumerable (and small?) set of files you're working with?
2014-08-18T15:38:41Z drmeister: 70 or so
2014-08-18T15:38:47Z Xach: I'm not sure what you're describing will be made easier with logical pathnames
2014-08-18T15:38:59Z Xach: Maybe, though
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2014-08-18T15:39:12Z drmeister: It's not so much easy as "logically consistent" that I'm looking for.
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2014-08-18T15:39:44Z Xach: drmeister: I think some features of CL get slammed because the features you imagine they might have fall short of the features they actually provide (e.g. the package system)
2014-08-18T15:39:44Z drmeister: What I have now is hacky and mps FASL files clobber boehm FASL files.
2014-08-18T15:39:53Z Xach: But if you take them at face value they can provide a lot of utility.
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2014-08-18T15:44:49Z drmeister: Here's a more well defined question.   If you pass :output-file to COMPILE-FILE the output-file shouldn't be modified in any way - right?
2014-08-18T15:46:38Z drmeister: (COMPILE-FILE-PATHNAME "/a/b/c/xxxx.lsp" :output-file "zzzz.bc") should return "zzzz.bc" and not merge it with the input file name or anything to produce "/a/b/c/zzzz.bc"  - that would be bad right?
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2014-08-18T15:47:21Z drmeister: Because I just noticed that I do mess with the output-file even when it's provided and I don't recall if that was my bad idea or I picked that code up from SBCL.
2014-08-18T15:48:12Z Xach: It shouldn't merge with the input file. I would expect it to merge with *default-pathname-defaults*, but I don't see that directly in the spec. I wonder if it's mentioned in a rollup page somewhere.
2014-08-18T15:48:34Z Xach: I don't see *d-p-d* mentioned in COMPILE-FILE or COMPILE-FILE-PATHNAME, maybe it's elsewhere.
2014-08-18T15:48:38Z drmeister: Ha!  Nope - I picked that up from SBCL - https://gist.github.com/drmeister/37d708fb1c1bda4193bb
2014-08-18T15:49:08Z drmeister: I should always be wary of code that has comments that start with "KLUDGE"
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2014-08-18T15:51:10Z drmeister: I guess it's harmless - right?  If pathname parts aren't supplied in the output-file then they are provided by the input-file pathname.
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2014-08-18T15:53:05Z Xach: drmeister: i understand doing that when there is no explicit output-file but it would surprise me if i provide the output file.
2014-08-18T15:53:26Z Xach: i suspect this is a lightly-exercised area and that implementations vary in their interpretation.
2014-08-18T15:53:38Z Xach: I was surprised by how rename-file acts in that regard, but at least the spec is pretty explicit about it.
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2014-08-18T15:54:41Z drmeister: But what would (compile-file-pathname "/a/b/c/xxx.lsp" :output-file "yyy.bc") --> "yyy.bc" mean?
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2014-08-18T15:54:58Z drmeister: Common lisp doesn't have the concept of "current directory" does it?
2014-08-18T15:55:37Z Xach: drmeister: no, but it does have *default-pathname-defaults*, which is used for pretty much every file operation.
2014-08-18T15:55:41Z drmeister: Wouldn't I rather have (compile-file-pathname "/a/b/c/xxx.lsp" :output-file "yyy.bc") -->  #P"/a/b/c/yyy.bc"  ?
2014-08-18T15:56:02Z drmeister: Oh - I see what you mean.
2014-08-18T15:56:03Z Xach: drmeister: maybe if you don't know about *default-pathname-defaults* :)
2014-08-18T15:56:45Z Xach: Using relative pathnames to me means "merge with *d-p-d* before really doing anything" (except with rename-file)
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2014-08-18T15:57:54Z Xach: (rename-file "/tmp/foo.txt" "bar") => #p"/tmp/bar.txt"
2014-08-18T15:58:09Z stacksmith: Re logs at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/ - what are the 'loose' .txt files sitting outside of the monthly directories?
2014-08-18T15:59:47Z drmeister: Ok, thanks.
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2014-08-18T16:05:51Z drmeister: My expectations were wrong.  I thought there should be a logical-pathname-p predicate.   How do I determine if a pathname is a logical pathname or should I not be doing that?
2014-08-18T16:06:33Z drmeister: I want to generate a new pathname with a different host given a logical pathname and not do anything if given a physical pathname.
2014-08-18T16:07:08Z drmeister is still a bit fuzzy re: logical and physical pathnames other than logical pathnames have hosts.
2014-08-18T16:07:21Z drmeister and physical pathnames are like unix paths
2014-08-18T16:07:54Z drmeister: Physical pathnames have a 1:1 map to paths in the operating system - right?
2014-08-18T16:08:11Z Xach: drmeister: not really. that's why implementations provide things like SB-EXT:NATIVE-NAMESTRING
2014-08-18T16:08:38Z Xach: drmeister: most of the time they are the same, but the exceptions can be problematic if you expect them to be always the same.
2014-08-18T16:08:54Z drmeister: (merge-pathname (make-pathname :host "MIN-MPS") XXXX)   what if XXXX is a physical pathname - what happens?
2014-08-18T16:09:45Z drmeister: I'll just try it.
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2014-08-18T16:11:56Z drmeister: On ECL:   (merge-pathnames (make-pathname :host "ZZZ") (pathname "/a/b/foo.bar")) --> #P"file://ZZZ/a/b/foo.bar"    What's that "file:" thing?
2014-08-18T16:12:28Z jackdaniel: drmeister: in is "protocol" specification, like http://
2014-08-18T16:12:30Z jackdaniel: or ssh://
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2014-08-18T16:12:59Z drmeister: And sbcl complains "debugger invoked on a SIMPLE-TYPE-ERROR: logical host not yet defined: "ZZZ""
2014-08-18T16:13:24Z drmeister: Hmmm, implementation dependent behavior
2014-08-18T16:13:48Z drmeister is now free to make monkeys come out of the users nose.
2014-08-18T16:14:01Z jackdaniel: if i'd like to submit patch for ecl, is mailing-list appropriate place?
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2014-08-18T16:14:09Z shka: hi all!
2014-08-18T16:14:17Z shka: does anybody run arch linux?
2014-08-18T16:14:21Z jackdaniel does
2014-08-18T16:14:24Z spockokt: shka: yep
2014-08-18T16:14:27Z shka: great
2014-08-18T16:14:35Z shka: slime runs just fine?
2014-08-18T16:14:39Z spockokt: yep
2014-08-18T16:14:43Z shka: oh
2014-08-18T16:14:47Z Xach: jackdaniel: yes
2014-08-18T16:14:51Z jackdaniel: shka: pick slime from quicklisp
2014-08-18T16:14:59Z shka: after recents upgrades my slime won
2014-08-18T16:15:01Z shka: 't start
2014-08-18T16:15:05Z shka: jackdaniel: i did
2014-08-18T16:15:13Z shka: maybe i should update quicklisp?
2014-08-18T16:15:15Z Xach: shka: what happens when you try to start it?
2014-08-18T16:15:34Z shka:  Error while compiling /home/herr/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-2.6/swank-sbcl.lisp:
2014-08-18T16:15:37Z shka: ;;   COMPILE-FILE returned NIL.
2014-08-18T16:15:39Z shka: ;; Aborting.
2014-08-18T16:15:45Z shka: Xach: the above text showes up
2014-08-18T16:16:20Z Xach: shka: Is there more to the error? Maybe something you could paste?
2014-08-18T16:16:35Z Xach: shka: What SBCL are you using?
2014-08-18T16:16:42Z shka: Xach: yeah, it is more
2014-08-18T16:16:50Z Xach: In any case, slime 2.8 is the latest, and it has compatibility fixes for slime.
2014-08-18T16:16:52Z shka: let me paste to the pastebin
2014-08-18T16:16:58Z Xach: You might have success with (ql:update-dist "quicklisp")
2014-08-18T16:17:13Z shka: let me try it first
2014-08-18T16:17:14Z Xach: You will have to restart your session after that for the new slime to be known to emacs
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2014-08-18T16:17:57Z Shinmera: Otherwise using slime from melpa/marmalade works fine.
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2014-08-18T16:19:08Z Xach: "compatibility fixes for sbcl", rather.
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2014-08-18T16:21:05Z shka: Xach: thx, slime works after updating
2014-08-18T16:21:41Z Xach: glad to hear it.
2014-08-18T16:22:20Z shka: Xach: thanks for quicklisp
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2014-08-18T16:24:53Z dim: +1, thanks for quicklisp!
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2014-08-18T16:30:50Z Xach: no problem
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2014-08-18T16:57:53Z alvaro612: Please, where could I get lisp libraries from? Some pages refer to common-lisp.net, which is not longer available
2014-08-18T16:58:10Z spockokt: alvaro612: quicklisp is a popular choice
2014-08-18T16:58:44Z spockokt: there is also the CLOCC (http://clocc.sourceforge.net/)
2014-08-18T16:59:06Z spockokt: oops forgot the link to quicklisp http://www.quicklisp.org/
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2014-08-18T17:00:11Z ejbs: alvaro612: Quicklisp, you can find some goods libs at cliki.net (recommended libraries)
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2014-08-18T17:01:26Z alvaro612: ok, thank you all! I'll check those sites
2014-08-18T17:02:26Z shka: alvaro612: quicklisp is awesome
2014-08-18T17:02:34Z shka: you WANT to install it
2014-08-18T17:03:31Z alvaro612: I'm on it!
2014-08-18T17:04:42Z spockokt slowly starts to chant "One of us... One of us..."
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2014-08-18T17:09:01Z ejbs: alvaro612: Don't be afraid of asking about libs on here
2014-08-18T17:09:56Z oleo: common-lisp.net seems down
2014-08-18T17:10:06Z AeroNotix: lol
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2014-08-18T17:10:15Z AeroNotix: do y'all need some hosting help or something
2014-08-18T17:10:31Z AeroNotix: load balancer+multiple application hosts
2014-08-18T17:10:59Z shka: alvaro612: don't be afraid, our combined chant can summon any lisp library to the realm of your personal computer
2014-08-18T17:11:44Z shka: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5J8mvTWceO8
2014-08-18T17:11:46Z shka: lol
2014-08-18T17:12:35Z jackdaniel: nice piece
2014-08-18T17:12:51Z jackdaniel: dcd is one of my favourites
2014-08-18T17:13:10Z alvaro612: shka: Quicklisp seems to be even faster than your chant
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2014-08-18T17:14:04Z shka: alvaro612: yeah, it is a bit more like "you suffer but why" by napalm death
2014-08-18T17:14:22Z AeroNotix: H4ns: do you know who manages common-lisp.net? (asking you since you seem to be in-the-know about these things)
2014-08-18T17:14:28Z AeroNotix: (it's down fyi)
2014-08-18T17:15:31Z alvaro612: shka: would you please invoke with your charming chant a library with support for https and cookies?
2014-08-18T17:15:51Z jackdaniel: and most of links are broken, esp pointing to repos
2014-08-18T17:16:32Z shka: alvaro612: wanna server?
2014-08-18T17:16:39Z AeroNotix: jackdaniel: it's a wiki, no? Or am I thinking of Cliki
2014-08-18T17:17:04Z shka: alvaro612: or something different?
2014-08-18T17:17:15Z jackdaniel: AeroNotix: cliki is wiki
2014-08-18T17:17:39Z alvaro612: shka: a client
2014-08-18T17:17:39Z ejbs: alvaro612: Drakma
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2014-08-18T17:18:01Z AeroNotix: jackdaniel: so if cliki is a wiki, then lets see, you could add stuff you see to the wiki named cliki and then we would see the stuff you see. On Cliki. Wiki.
2014-08-18T17:18:11Z ejbs: alvaro612: http://cliki.net/Current%20recommended%20libraries
2014-08-18T17:18:17Z tokenrove: at ILC, the common lisp foundation was announced, and they said that they would be relaunching common-lisp.net this week
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2014-08-18T17:18:36Z AeroNotix: tokenrove: common lisp foundation -- what does it do and why aren't they making a new standard :)
2014-08-18T17:18:37Z tokenrove: http://cl-foundation.org/
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2014-08-18T17:18:46Z jackdaniel: tokenrove: thanks for sharing
2014-08-18T17:18:48Z alvaro612: ejbs: great, thank you!
2014-08-18T17:18:51Z shka: alvaro612: actually, i don't know
2014-08-18T17:19:02Z AeroNotix: the new common-lisp.net page looks fkn sweet
2014-08-18T17:19:04Z shka: but somebody surely know
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2014-08-18T17:19:43Z alvaro612: shka: ejbs just pointed out to Drakma http://cliki.net/Drakma
2014-08-18T17:19:57Z tokenrove: what's bad is that i maintain a couple of libraries that were hosted on common-lisp.net, and i didn't even realize it was down, or how long mail to those mailing lists hasn't been getting through. :-/
2014-08-18T17:20:00Z AeroNotix: alvaro612: +1 for drakma
2014-08-18T17:20:20Z AeroNotix: tokenrove: actually hosting the packages *on* common-lisp.net?
2014-08-18T17:20:42Z AeroNotix: Why not on S3 and just have common-lisp have links to those packages, decentralize the indexes
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2014-08-18T17:20:48Z tokenrove: that was the thing to do at one time.  the primary CVS (and later darcs, then git) repositories were all there.
2014-08-18T17:20:51Z shka: alvaro612: it is worth a try
2014-08-18T17:21:01Z decent: AeroNotix: the "Unable to connect" page? :( page hates me!
2014-08-18T17:21:02Z AeroNotix: tokenrove: sure, working repos, releases should be on S3 (or equiv)
2014-08-18T17:21:04Z shka: AeroNotix: where can we see the new page?
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2014-08-18T17:21:14Z tokenrove: AeroNotix: S3 was not launched at the time
2014-08-18T17:21:15Z AeroNotix: shka: decent: on http://cl-foundation.org/clnet/index.html this is a sneak preview
2014-08-18T17:21:22Z AeroNotix: tokenrove: time to upgrade our practices
2014-08-18T17:21:34Z AeroNotix: hopefully with this new foundation we could get working groups going about shit like this
2014-08-18T17:21:38Z decent: thanks. :)
2014-08-18T17:21:39Z shka: looks sleek
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2014-08-18T17:21:45Z shka: but yet another logo
2014-08-18T17:21:54Z tokenrove: AeroNotix: of course.  i'm not commenting about current practices, only what was happening circa 2006.
2014-08-18T17:22:01Z AeroNotix: tokenrove: cool, ok.
2014-08-18T17:22:04Z shka: it would be nice to have a single logo for cl
2014-08-18T17:22:15Z AeroNotix: shka: draw one, get people to agree :)
2014-08-18T17:22:24Z AeroNotix: the lizard and that little alien thing annoy me
2014-08-18T17:22:26Z dlowe: yeah, no one has really done better than the alien
2014-08-18T17:22:30Z AeroNotix: but w/e
2014-08-18T17:22:33Z AeroNotix: I rarely think about it
2014-08-18T17:22:40Z tokenrove: AeroNotix: attending ILC has spurred me back to the CL community, but i haven't been active here for a fairly long time.
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2014-08-18T17:22:59Z AeroNotix: tokenrove: I'm excited to hear about any and all improvements. Any other tidbits?
2014-08-18T17:23:47Z tokenrove: well, the CL Foundation announcement mentioned the potential for a CL-specific conference in the near future.
2014-08-18T17:23:58Z dlowe: actually the lizard is pretty good, but the alien has more recognizability, I think
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2014-08-18T17:24:37Z tokenrove: the biggest relief was just hearing that things like the domain names (cliki, common-lisp.net, etc) were actually going to be handled responsibly
2014-08-18T17:24:40Z jackdaniel: i better like lizard
2014-08-18T17:25:14Z jackdaniel: :)
2014-08-18T17:26:14Z jackdaniel: however it lacks svg
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2014-08-18T17:29:46Z alvaro612: you have totally opened my eyes with quicklisp, I was getting desperate about not finding libraries
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2014-08-18T17:32:14Z shka: alien is cool :D
2014-08-18T17:32:32Z jackdaniel: i personaly dislike it ;p
2014-08-18T17:32:33Z shka: alvaro612: yeah
2014-08-18T17:32:51Z shka: alvaro612: did you insalled slime already?
2014-08-18T17:33:10Z alvaro612: yes, I've been using it for a while
2014-08-18T17:33:44Z shka: good
2014-08-18T17:34:43Z alvaro612: It's wonderful too, I see lisp has many magical tools around
2014-08-18T17:34:58Z shka: well, they are not magical
2014-08-18T17:35:12Z shka: it is just the way lisp works
2014-08-18T17:35:22Z dlowe: magical can also mean wonderful. :p
2014-08-18T17:35:28Z shka: dlowe: ah, ok
2014-08-18T17:36:07Z jackdaniel: advanced technology is essentialy magic ;-)
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2014-08-18T17:37:48Z mood: Or, as it was said by Clarke: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
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2014-08-18T17:39:24Z shka: any technology that is not magical is not advanced enough? ;-)
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2014-08-18T17:41:23Z alvaro612: well, thank you all for your help. I'll be back to seek more magic (technology, for shka ;) )
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2014-08-18T18:23:57Z rpg: The spell-checker turned my PROGN into a prong....
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2014-08-18T18:31:45Z patrickwonders: I'm trying to detect if the current Lisp process was started with --quiet or --noinform or what-have-you.  Is there some TRIVIAL-SHUTUP library?
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2014-08-18T18:33:17Z patrickwonders: Also, looks to me in the SBCL source (though I need to refresh my copy of the source) that that information is thrown away before Lisp starts at all..... is that true?  Is there some way to detect being in script mode or --noinform mode from the Lisp runtime?
2014-08-18T18:33:38Z oleo: yes
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2014-08-18T18:35:52Z patrickwonders: yes to "it is thrown away" or yes to "is there some way to detect it from the Lisp runtime"?
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2014-08-18T18:36:35Z patrickwonders: or "yes" to "TRIVIAL-SHUTUP"?
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2014-08-18T18:37:16Z patrickwonders: Ugh... my flight is boarding... will ask again some other time.....
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2014-08-18T19:23:57Z drmeister: (sigh) What is the function to convert a logical-pathname to a physical pathname?
2014-08-18T19:24:08Z drmeister: Or is there one?  I'm confused.
2014-08-18T19:24:31Z Xach: translate-logical-pathname
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2014-08-18T19:25:33Z drmeister: Yippee-kay-yay!   (translate-logical-pathname (compile-file-pathname (pathname "sys:kernel;lsp;foundation.lsp") :target-backend "min-boehm")) -->   #P"/Users/meister/Development/clasp/src/lisp/build/system/min-boehm/kernel/lsp/min/foundation.bc"
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2014-08-18T19:26:08Z drmeister: (translate-logical-pathname (compile-file-pathname (pathname "sys:kernel;lsp;foundation.lsp") :target-backend "full-boehm")) --> #P"/Users/meister/Development/clasp/src/lisp/build/system/full-boehm/kernel/lsp/min/foundation.bc"
2014-08-18T19:27:01Z Xach: wicked
2014-08-18T19:27:04Z drmeister:  (translate-logical-pathname (compile-file-pathname (pathname "sys:kernel;lsp;foundation.lsp") :target-backend "full-mps")) -->  #P"/Users/meister/Development/clasp/src/lisp/build/system/full-mps/kernel/lsp/min/foundation.bc"
2014-08-18T19:27:21Z drmeister: As my wife always says to me (and I ignore at my peril) "Everything has a place and everything in its place"
2014-08-18T19:28:01Z drmeister: No more mps files clobberin' boehm files.
2014-08-18T19:28:26Z drmeister: All done in a more-or-less Common Lisp harmonious way.
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2014-08-18T19:35:27Z drmeister: Now I just need to modify my linker functions to make them work like ECL's C:BUILDER function and then I can use it with ASDF's CREATE-IMAGE function.
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2014-08-18T19:55:46Z dim: logical pathnames and translations is another part of the standard I'm yet to study, understand, and get to appriecate when and how to use
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2014-08-18T19:58:51Z Xach: dim: You will find people who say "They are awful and stupid" without much more useful information.
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2014-08-18T19:59:15Z Xach wants to write a logical pathname pamphlet after the package system one
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2014-08-18T19:59:32Z dim: yeah, that's all I've heard so far, except from pjb who apparently likes setting them right then using only logical pathnames in his sources, or something like that
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2014-08-18T20:00:12Z dim: I guess it's damn useful for loading local project resources, where I'm currently using asdf:system-relative-pathname
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2014-08-18T20:02:00Z Xach: I'm not sure they're useful for things you might distribute to others as components. I think it may be more useful for applications.
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2014-08-18T20:06:16Z dim: I was thinking about producing a binary (with buildapp, say (thanks)) that includes load-time loaded resources in-memory: at load time you want to fetch those resources, using asdf:system-relative-pathname is quite useful then
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2014-08-18T20:07:22Z dim: I do that for "embedded" web sites for apps, or web oriented applications including their own web server (hunchentoot), I load all static resources (bootstrap, fontawesome, chart libs in javascript, you name it) right into the binary file
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2014-08-18T20:07:34Z dim: I like single file installs
2014-08-18T20:07:40Z Xach: I wish it was easy to have asdf emit a program file that does the work, and then load that instead of using ASDF.
2014-08-18T20:07:57Z AeroNotix: When I have a traceback in SLIME and I can see a value such as # how can I "get" that value so I could use it in the REPL again?
2014-08-18T20:08:30Z Xach: AeroNotix: "t" to toggle local variables, then M-RET with the cursor on the object
2014-08-18T20:08:33Z dim: here's the in-memory pseudo-file-system implementation for hunchentoot to serve pre-loaded static resources: https://github.com/dimitri/pginstall/blob/master/src/server/cache.lisp
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2014-08-18T20:09:02Z dim: and here's how I use it, at https://github.com/dimitri/pginstall/blob/master/src/server/paths.lisp
2014-08-18T20:09:38Z AeroNotix: Xach: That doesn't seem to do anything. RET introspects the object.
2014-08-18T20:10:18Z Xach: AeroNotix: In the slime inspector, M-RET also copies an object to the repl.
2014-08-18T20:10:46Z Xach: I don't know why you don't see that behavior in the debugger. Maybe it's a new feature, or I'm not describing the process well enough.
2014-08-18T20:11:00Z dim: Xach: do you mean like preparing a "fat tarball" that you would load and it would contain all the dependencies at the right place, etc
2014-08-18T20:11:12Z AeroNotix: Xach: that doesn't seem to work
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2014-08-18T20:11:42Z yrk: are there any gotchas when doing accounting in common lisp? rounding errors, etc. ?
2014-08-18T20:11:51Z dim: M-RET is not the same as RET, AeroNotix
2014-08-18T20:11:59Z AeroNotix: dim: of course
2014-08-18T20:12:02Z AeroNotix: I know that
2014-08-18T20:12:16Z dim: you've been mentioning trying RET when Xach has been mentioning M-RET, hence my remark
2014-08-18T20:12:44Z ehu: when stassats gets in, please tell him lisppaste has gone haywire.
2014-08-18T20:12:45Z AeroNotix: dim: I just said what RET did in that same situation, just to give some more info
2014-08-18T20:13:24Z Xach: dim: no
2014-08-18T20:13:25Z AeroNotix: dim: Xach I think my window manager is stealing M-RET
2014-08-18T20:14:20Z dim: AeroNotix: try ESC RET then, in two separate keypresses
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2014-08-18T20:14:28Z Xach: ill
2014-08-18T20:14:37Z dim: then there's C-x @ if you're desperate
2014-08-18T20:14:46Z AeroNotix: dim: nah I just removed the keybind in xmonad
2014-08-18T20:14:58Z AeroNotix: It has tonnes of stupid, lovely default keybinds
2014-08-18T20:15:04Z AeroNotix: Xach: dim thanks both
2014-08-18T20:15:08Z dim: C-x @ m RET
2014-08-18T20:15:12Z Xach: screen cast!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3JFk88qU-A
2014-08-18T20:15:16Z dim: you quite need to be desperate
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2014-08-18T20:16:17Z AeroNotix: Xach: hehe, thanks!
2014-08-18T20:16:24Z AeroNotix: TIL Xach develops on Mac
2014-08-18T20:16:43Z dim: of course, he's smart enough to value his time ;-)
2014-08-18T20:16:45Z Xach: my desktops are mac. my servers are linux.
2014-08-18T20:16:54Z AeroNotix: gotcha
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2014-08-18T20:23:30Z dim: my laptop is a mac, my customer's and users servers tend to be linux.
2014-08-18T20:26:05Z Xach is happy with anything that runs sbcl fairly well and quickly
2014-08-18T20:27:29Z dim: and CCL too
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2014-08-18T20:30:51Z Xach is always a little sad when an interesting-sounding project pops up on the github feed, there are 20 files, and they are all just one line: (in-package cool-project)
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2014-08-18T20:32:11Z dlowe: sorry. I'm kinda bad about that.
2014-08-18T20:32:17Z dim: ah yeah, I've seen that in a project you did some publicity about
2014-08-18T20:32:28Z dim: it was the iPython Notebook for CL idea
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2014-08-18T20:35:05Z Xach: https://github.com/juszczakn/bullet-hell is a variation on that theme for me
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2014-08-18T20:40:25Z pnpuff: AeroNotix: xmonad? o.O
2014-08-18T20:40:39Z AeroNotix: pnpuff: yup
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2014-08-18T20:40:59Z AeroNotix: tried to use stumpwm, loved it. Found out that it doesn't handle multiple monitors how I liked and then gave up
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2014-08-18T20:41:21Z Shinmera: Xach: I usually do that because I like to have a backup and history right away, but at least my last few libs have been pretty much usable from the initial up.
2014-08-18T20:41:43Z pnpuff: Why not cwm? ;)
2014-08-18T20:41:54Z pnpuff: at least is not written in Haskell :)
2014-08-18T20:42:08Z AeroNotix: pnpuff: written in... C?
2014-08-18T20:42:14Z AeroNotix: I don't hate myself :)
2014-08-18T20:42:37Z Shaftoe___: Hello all. This might seem like a naive question: but how come the process of importing C libraries into CL can't be an automated one? CFFI wrapper projects seem to be essentially copy-paste-minor-edit based projects. Is there no way to automate this process? Is there a reason it can't be done fundamentally or is it simply that it would require a large effort that would be substantially larger than wrapping any single project?
2014-08-18T20:43:01Z AeroNotix: Shaftoe___: there is a project which does this
2014-08-18T20:43:06Z Shinmera: There is cl-autowrap
2014-08-18T20:43:08Z AeroNotix: yeah
2014-08-18T20:43:21Z Shinmera: But usually you want to have your own layer on top anyway to make it lispy
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2014-08-18T20:44:05Z Shaftoe___: I see. let me look at it. Is it good? or does it stumble?
2014-08-18T20:44:22Z Shinmera: I haven't used it personally, but I've heard good things if that counts for anything
2014-08-18T20:45:38Z Shaftoe___: Shinmera: I hear what you're saying and interestingly that was one of the things that prompted me to ask this question at all. I was looking at a bunch of "with-xxx" macro definitions which are essentially cookie cutter declarations with a progn + some unwind protection and occasionally some local variables... I thought, there has to be a macro way of doing that...
2014-08-18T20:45:42Z Xach: Shaftoe___: I don't know a lot about it, but I believe there are some significant stumbling blocks, like when critical things are done as preprocessor macros.
2014-08-18T20:46:04Z ChanServ has set mode +o p_l
2014-08-18T20:46:14Z p_l has set mode +b $r:www
2014-08-18T20:46:16Z yumanki [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has been kicked from #lisp by p_l (yumanki)
2014-08-18T20:46:32Z dlowe: I'm not sure how well that ban is going to work
2014-08-18T20:47:04Z p_l: dlowe: not for very long, they learned to switch realname
2014-08-18T20:47:21Z dlowe: Is $r:www an actual pattern now?
2014-08-18T20:47:23Z Shaftoe___: Xach: what do you mean exactly? I'm not talking about importing C source libraries verbatim, more about using a C interfaced binary library
2014-08-18T20:47:41Z p_l: dlowe: it's Freenode pattern for matching realname part of whois
2014-08-18T20:47:52Z Bike: Shaftoe___: getting the API for the binary from the C headers.
2014-08-18T20:48:02Z Shaftoe___: Xach: " It allows one to specify a C header file, and generates wrappers from there using c2ffi." ah yes, I see now what you mean
2014-08-18T20:48:06Z Shaftoe___: Bike: yup. thanks.
2014-08-18T20:48:18Z p_l: unfortunately, not much I can do about it, except switching the whole channel to require registered users, and that won't help if you are in another channel and encounter the same bot
2014-08-18T20:49:14Z Shaftoe___: well the cliki description looks good.
2014-08-18T20:49:28Z oGMo: there aren't that many stumbling blocks with autowrap :P
2014-08-18T20:49:51Z Shaftoe___: another question if I may: what is the word on the street about common-cv? (openCV wrapper) Anyone use it? does it have good coverage?
2014-08-18T20:50:32Z Bike: i remember hearing it used an obsoleted C interface
2014-08-18T20:50:34Z oGMo: the macro stuff works pretty well, unless your C library has heavy macro _code_
2014-08-18T20:50:49Z Bike: there's a person around here trying to use lisp with the C++ version, but they're very bad at it
2014-08-18T20:50:51Z oGMo: Bike: it uses its own, on top of cffi-sys
2014-08-18T20:51:01Z Bike: oh, well that's better.
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2014-08-18T20:51:10Z Bike: maybe.
2014-08-18T20:51:26Z oGMo: it's a much better and more accurate C representation than CFFI's higher level stuff
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2014-08-18T20:52:57Z oGMo: and with any luck in a couple weeks it'll support C++, since i got c2ffi dumping full C++ stuff
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2014-08-18T20:55:21Z Shaftoe___: opencv is an interesting beast itself. there's some discrepencies between the python C and C++ interfaces.
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2014-08-18T20:57:58Z oGMo: Shaftoe___: yeah that has some neat stuff
2014-08-18T20:58:00Z Shaftoe___: Thank you all. I'm going to look into this some more... the attractiveness of being able the use OpenCV via a lisp based REPL is tremendous, honestly. Computer vision is the most iterative and algorithmic workflow I have ever encountered during my programming career. Lisp would be ideal for it, methinks. But I'm loathe to get bogged down in mechanical details.
2014-08-18T20:58:17Z oGMo: personally i'm trying to get bullet working... but there are a lot of nice graphics libraries that are unfortunately C++
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2014-08-18T20:59:45Z Shaftoe___: oGMo: the attractiveness of OpenCV (for me) stems from the fact that most CV research papers seem to provide an implementation of their thesis in OpenCV. So as far as academic research goes, it seems to be the substrate people use. I'm not actually sure how it compares with other image processing libraries.
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2014-08-18T21:02:08Z oGMo: Shaftoe___: yeah .. image processing is not really my domain sadly but i see opencv references often
2014-08-18T21:02:57Z Shaftoe___: oGMo: tell me, cl-autowrap handles callbacks without problem?
2014-08-18T21:03:16Z Shaftoe___: or are there assumptions about well behaviour of library itself?
2014-08-18T21:03:30Z Xach: I wanted to use opencv + lisp for a prank website a long time ago. I was going to just try to call it from a C program from the command line though.
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2014-08-18T21:04:24Z oGMo: Shaftoe___: callbacks work if your lisp supports them (whatever cffi suppors)
2014-08-18T21:04:28Z oGMo: "supports"
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2014-08-18T21:05:19Z oGMo: autowrap has a layer for cffi:callback which lets you use autowrap-named types
2014-08-18T21:06:20Z Shaftoe___: Xach: I would use that approach for a final product, but I'm actually going to be "cooking" some algorithms. large amounts of list processing involved. really, ideal stuff for lisp. Also, I love the notion of live updates on a running video stream.
2014-08-18T21:06:46Z Shaftoe___: oGMo: thanks. I'm going to check all of this out.
2014-08-18T21:07:02Z oGMo: Shaftoe___: doesnt' common-cv work though?
2014-08-18T21:08:48Z Shaftoe___: oGMo: don't know yet. I'm going to check it out. I just came here to get an idea of where it's all at because I don't want to waste hours trying to see if it just works only to figure out later that some algorithm just published won't work because it's using some data structure that was deemed too esotheric to bother importing. All of that disclaimer having been said: I don't know. I'm going to give it a go.
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2014-08-18T21:09:23Z oGMo: Shaftoe___: ah, well, good luck
2014-08-18T21:09:29Z Shaftoe___: thanks.
2014-08-18T21:10:08Z Shaftoe___: oGMo: (the other thing being that if autowrap is as painfree as I hope it to be, it would be good for keeping abreast of updates to the opencv library itself)
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2014-08-18T21:11:30Z oGMo: Shaftoe___: yeah that's part of the goal .. let me know if you have issues, or file an issue, and we chat in #lispgames a fair bit as well. https://github.com/rpav/ZMQ4L is probably a great how-to example project
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2014-08-18T21:12:22Z Shaftoe___: thanks! good stuff, btw. I'm reading the autowrap page and it's got some pretty spiffy stuff going on =)
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2014-08-18T21:12:49Z oGMo: there's a lot to it, but it's not as complicated as it probably seems heh
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2014-08-18T21:36:18Z stacksmi`: AeroNotix: you'll be excited: SBCL/cl-cffi-gtk is crashing again, /0.
2014-08-18T21:36:29Z AeroNotix: stacksmi`: how?
2014-08-18T21:36:35Z AeroNotix: show code
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2014-08-18T21:37:48Z stacksmi`: Will make a paste.  It crashes with a cleanly loaded SBCL/slime before anything is displayed.
2014-08-18T21:40:06Z AeroNotix: Gonna need to see what yer doing. Also, did you check that all the system libraries are the correct version?
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2014-08-18T21:43:09Z stacksmi`: AeroNotix: what's a good way to check that all the system libraries are the correct version?
2014-08-18T21:43:32Z stacksmi`: AeroNotix: http://pastebin.com/3tceDDR1
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2014-08-18T21:44:56Z AeroNotix: stacksmi`: give me the defpackage too please
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2014-08-18T21:50:56Z stacksmi`: AeroNotix: (defpackage :mytest
2014-08-18T21:50:56Z stacksmi`:   (:use :gtk :gdk :gdk-pixbuf :gobject
2014-08-18T21:50:56Z stacksmi`:    :glib :gio :pango :cairo
2014-08-18T21:50:56Z stacksmi`:    :split-sequence :common-lisp))
2014-08-18T21:50:59Z stacksmi`:  
2014-08-18T21:52:13Z AeroNotix: stacksmi`: works fine for me
2014-08-18T21:52:29Z stacksmi`: Worked fine for me 10 minutes ago.
2014-08-18T21:53:21Z stacksmi`: I crashed, quit, and now no more cl-cffi-gtk.
2014-08-18T21:53:32Z namespace: Is there a way to define ints to be strings for say printing purposes? eg. (let ((64 a)) (print 64))
2014-08-18T21:54:04Z stacksmi`: Strings?
2014-08-18T21:54:13Z namespace: Yes?
2014-08-18T21:54:16Z namespace: Chars.
2014-08-18T21:54:17Z namespace: Whatever.
2014-08-18T21:54:37Z Xach: namespace: you can get a character that corresponds to a particular code with code-char.
2014-08-18T21:54:43Z stacksmi`: Looking at your example, you want to name something 64
2014-08-18T21:54:50Z namespace: Xach: Thank you.
2014-08-18T21:54:52Z Xach: namespace: you can get a string consisting of a single character with (string )
2014-08-18T21:55:06Z namespace: Xach: No no I just need a char, but again thank you.
2014-08-18T21:56:52Z stacksmi`: Is paste.lisp.org down?
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2014-08-18T21:57:43Z namespace: I think it was mentioned earlier that it is.
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2014-08-18T21:59:17Z namespace: Xach: So it doesn't seem clear from writing this if code-char lets me create an encoding or use a standard one such as ascii.
2014-08-18T21:59:27Z namespace: *from reading
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2014-08-18T22:02:48Z beach: Good evening everyone!
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2014-08-18T22:03:06Z stacksmith: AeroNotix: The simpler example I used yesterday works in SBCL without slime; works once (actually displays a window) in SBCL/slime then crashes with /0.
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2014-08-18T22:03:39Z phadthai: good evening beach
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2014-08-18T22:03:50Z stacksmith: beach: 'evening.
2014-08-18T22:03:54Z AeroNotix: stacksmith: In bed, will catch up tomorrow
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2014-08-18T22:04:01Z stacksmith: AeroNotix: g'night.
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2014-08-18T22:08:18Z namespace: The reason I ask is that obviously doing a giant if statement tree to encode base64 would be wasteful.
2014-08-18T22:09:27Z namespace: Hash table?
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2014-08-18T22:12:27Z White_Flame: So, the project I'm using benefits from fare-quasiquote.  In loading & building a project, what's the preferred way to make a permanent change to the read-time environment for all future loaded files?  Using in-readtable doesn't seem to "stick", presumably because *readtable* gets bound somewhere in the load system
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2014-08-18T22:13:08Z White_Flame: to clarify, using in-readtable in an early loaded file doesn't seem to affect the readtable state after load
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2014-08-18T22:14:39Z Xach: namespace: most lisps use unicode values as codes
2014-08-18T22:14:50Z White_Flame: I want to say "This shall be the global readtable from here on", from read time through runtime
2014-08-18T22:15:13Z Xach: White_Flame: CL:LOAD binds *readtable* and *package*, so they are dynamically scoped during loading
2014-08-18T22:15:35Z White_Flame: yeah, I suspected something like that was going on
2014-08-18T22:15:53Z White_Flame: so how do you take it over?
2014-08-18T22:16:15Z Xach: White_Flame: I'm not sure how to do what you want, sorry. You could mutate the standard readtable, I guess? But I don't know the good/the best thing to do, sorry.
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2014-08-18T22:17:39Z White_Flame: ok.  Mutating it appears to be against the spec, but maybe I can setf a replacement instead of mutating it
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2014-08-18T22:19:35Z ehu: ok. talked to stassats already.
2014-08-18T22:19:41Z ehu: lisppaste service restored.
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2014-08-18T22:21:05Z White_Flame: I use a project system which calls asdf, so allowing configuration of *readtable* from in there instead of within the source trees sounds like it would work: "load binds *readtable* and *package* to the values they held before loading the file."
2014-08-18T22:21:29Z White_Flame: argh, but I need to load fare-quasiquote first.  blah blah blah
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2014-08-18T22:23:53Z Vivitron: White_Flame: it is permissible to modify the initial readtable per 2.1.1.3 but using in-readtable in every file is my preferred solution to keep interactions with other projects simple
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2014-08-18T22:28:02Z Vivitron: White_Flame: I'll bet there's an asdf way to avoid the repetition. Maybe bind readtable to (find-symbol "*FQ-READTABLE*" ...) using the asdf machinery?
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2014-08-18T22:28:38Z Vivitron: symbol-value around that
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2014-08-18T22:40:35Z lagging_troll: quick question - any suggestions or examples for interacting with a running shell command?
2014-08-18T22:40:53Z lagging_troll: I'm super beginner with CL
2014-08-18T22:40:59Z lagging_troll: was trying this https://gist.github.com/anonymous/acf6617bd7942cb67d37
2014-08-18T22:41:05Z lagging_troll: no luck though..
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2014-08-18T22:42:34Z fe[nl]ix: lagging_troll: most likely stream-in is fully buffered and that's why you see no output
2014-08-18T22:42:54Z fe[nl]ix: try adding a call to force-output after the last write-line
2014-08-18T22:43:21Z lagging_troll:   cool i'll give it a shot
2014-08-18T22:44:15Z lagging_troll: works
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2014-08-18T22:44:28Z lagging_troll: that was simpler than i expected, thanks fe[nl]ix
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2014-08-18T22:54:07Z alvaro612: someone knows how to extract a substring from a string using cl-ppcre?
2014-08-18T22:54:48Z alvaro612: say I have "asdf1asdf2tyuij" and I want to extract only the number enclosed by "asdf"
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2014-08-18T22:58:05Z White_Flame: Vivitron: yeah, I use (eval (read-from-string "(....)")) a lot to avoid those package issues
2014-08-18T22:58:26Z White_Flame: my attempt to set *readtable* before the asdf load didn't work either, for some reason
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2014-08-18T23:01:24Z White_Flame: nope, my bad.  My setting was still inside a load context.  Moving it outside did work
2014-08-18T23:03:44Z lagging_troll: alvaro612: this works for me
2014-08-18T23:03:47Z lagging_troll: (cl-ppcre:scan-to-strings "asdf(.*?)asdf" "asdf1asdf2tyuij")
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2014-08-18T23:06:14Z alvaro612: lagging_troll: thank you very much, that works perfectly fine! I couldn't find the way
2014-08-18T23:06:47Z lagging_troll: cool, yw
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2014-08-18T23:14:04Z White_Flame: so using no "hackish" methods, my read/compile-time environment has fare-quasiquote, and my built executable image sets the readtable at startup.  But loading into SLIME still has the initial readtable.
2014-08-18T23:14:20Z White_Flame: for the interactive session
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2014-08-18T23:15:15Z Xach: White_Flame: i wonder if there's a with-standard-io-syntax involved somewhere
2014-08-18T23:17:04Z White_Flame: It's not unexpected that the SLIME session has the initial readtable.  Everythign that's executed is within a load context
2014-08-18T23:17:22Z White_Flame: everything *from my source code* that's executed ...
2014-08-18T23:18:08Z stacksmith: Is it possible to use ANSI escape codes in a Slime REPL?
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2014-08-18T23:18:50Z White_Flame: that might be more of an emacs question than a slime question?
2014-08-18T23:19:03Z Xach: stacksmith: not usually.
2014-08-18T23:19:15Z White_Flame: I would be confident in assuming SLIME doesn't manually interpret such codes
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2014-08-18T23:20:26Z White_Flame: Anything program that assumes talking to features of a terminal will likely do wrong things in a SLIME session
2014-08-18T23:20:30Z White_Flame: -thing
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2014-08-18T23:21:51Z stacksmith: I'm still trying to find a way to build a simple UI that lets me display text and scroll around...
2014-08-18T23:22:24Z White_Flame: you can build such a thing.  You just can't test it from SLIME, at least not without extending SLIME
2014-08-18T23:22:28Z Xach: stacksmith: one way is to start sbcl in the terminal. you can start a swank server and connect to it over the network, but still have the terminal session going.
2014-08-18T23:22:38Z Xach: so you could define functions within slime, and test them in a terminal.
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2014-08-18T23:22:51Z White_Flame points to Xach's answer.  We do that for a server app
2014-08-18T23:23:04Z stacksmith: I was doing it with ncurses, but got very frustrated.
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2014-08-18T23:24:41Z Xach: stacksmith: I messed around with xterm ui stuff for a bit. I had to add functions to to put the terminal in raw mode to process input directly. but then it helped to get out of raw mode for the debugger.
2014-08-18T23:25:15Z Xach: probably quicker to use a library. not sure about ncurses though.
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2014-08-18T23:26:20Z stacksmith: cl-charms seemed like a better choice.
2014-08-18T23:27:07Z Vivitron: White_Flame: if you want to set slime's readtable you can set it on a per package basis using swank::*readtable-alist* (named-readtables uses that)
2014-08-18T23:27:41Z stacksmith: I tried cl-cffi-gtk, but it's just unstable on my system.
2014-08-18T23:29:24Z Vivitron: White_Flame: that sets it both for a repl in that package and for C-c C-c of forms determined to be from that package
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2014-08-18T23:32:50Z Xach: stacksmith: I don't think there are any easy routes, unfortunately.
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2014-08-18T23:39:25Z Xach: You would be a kind of hero if you did something and made it easier for the next person
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2014-08-18T23:45:57Z stacksmith: Xach, I detect a hint there.
2014-08-18T23:47:47Z oGMo: if you're making a roguelike, i think there was a library wrapped for that
2014-08-18T23:48:20Z oGMo: even if you want some other text mechanism you may still be able to use it
2014-08-18T23:48:31Z stacksmith: Xach, I will be sure to share anything I concoct.
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2014-08-18T23:50:07Z stacksmith: oGMo, I will look around.  I just want some basic control of the terminal to start with.
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2014-08-19T00:05:56Z drmeiste_: Is there a more elegant, idiomatic way to do this?   I want to pass the argument ":target-backend XXX" to a series of functions - do I just bite the bullet and pass it over and over or define a dynamic variable *target-backend* and use that in the functions:  https://gist.github.com/drmeister/70c50c4c0e09cfc07886
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2014-08-19T00:08:31Z pillton: (apply #'compile-boot ... args) ?
2014-08-19T00:10:11Z |3b|: *target-backend* sounds reasonable
2014-08-19T00:11:04Z stacksmith: If there is only one target-backend, a special variable is not a bad idea.
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2014-08-19T00:12:25Z stacksmith: If you expect your code to handle multiple backends simultaneously, then pass it around.
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2014-08-19T00:15:31Z drmeiste_: The (apply #'compile-boot ... args)    If I set up (defun build-boot (&rest args &key (target-backend (default-backend))) ... (apply #'compile-boot ... args))   If I don't pass :target-backend to build-boot then it won't be in the args - right?
2014-08-19T00:16:31Z drmeiste_: For instance if I invoke:    (build-boot)    within build-boot target-backend is bound to the result of (default-backend) but it doesn't get passed into compile-boot through args.
2014-08-19T00:16:44Z pillton: The &key in COMPILE-MIN-BOOT suggests you think it might accept more arguments.
2014-08-19T00:17:57Z drmeiste_: pillton: You mean it suggests that I might add other key arguments in the future to COMPILE-MIN-BOOT?
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2014-08-19T00:18:39Z pillton: Yeah. What are you going to do then? A dynamic variable for every argument?
2014-08-19T00:19:17Z pillton: Yanking and pasting is probably the fastest solution. :)
2014-08-19T00:19:41Z drmeister: I'm asking because I did implement it using APPLY and then I realized that unless I passed :target-backend to COMPILE-MIN-BOOT, the :target-backend argument wouldn't be passed through apply.
2014-08-19T00:20:16Z drmeister: I'm asking more because although I've spent the last two years implementing a new Common Lisp system in C++ I'm still a bit green when it comes to writing elegant, idiomatic Common Lisp code.
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2014-08-19T00:21:12Z drmeister: I wonder about when it is best to pass an argument to functions and when it is best to use dynamic variables.
2014-08-19T00:21:23Z pillton: There is no elegant answer in my opinion.
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2014-08-19T00:21:53Z pillton: Hunchentoot's *REQUEST* *RESPONSE* variables are good examples.
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2014-08-19T00:59:01Z stacksmith: drmeister: do you think it's wise to implement a Common Lisp without being proficient in Common Lisp?  I ask because I've implemented many Forth-like systems without being an expert in Forth, and while I had a good time and solved many problems along the way, I will a) never be a Forth expert and b) never implement a Forth that anyone else can possibly use.
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2014-08-19T01:00:24Z Clarice: stacksmith: Are you asking because you yourself want to?
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2014-08-19T01:01:25Z stacksmith: Clarice: of course.  I have to kick myself every day to just continue learning Common Lisp instead of thinking of how this or that can be implemented.
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2014-08-19T01:02:56Z Clarice: stacksmith: Common Lisp isn't simple enough to just willy nilly write your own, in my opinion. Think about the complexity of function calling, for instance. In C you just throw a fixed number of arguments on the stack and let the next function consume them in reverse order, while in CL you can have optional arguments, keyword arguments, variable number of arguments, . . .
2014-08-19T01:03:47Z stacksmith: Clarice: Oh, I understand.  And what you mention is just scratching the surface.
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2014-08-19T01:04:33Z stacksmith: I am also pretty happy with CL implementations that I've had the privilege of trying out.
2014-08-19T01:04:36Z drmeister: stacksmith: My system compiles and runs 70 ECL Common Lisp source files, it implements CLOS.   I can't be too far off base.
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2014-08-19T01:05:53Z stacksmith: drmeister: I don't mean to offend.  Just idle curiosity.
2014-08-19T01:05:55Z drmeister: There may be some nasty differences between the CL standard and what I implemented but it's all debugging and fixing and improving at this stage.
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2014-08-19T01:08:02Z drmeister: Nope, you can't offend.
2014-08-19T01:08:18Z drmeister: You should have been around when I first came onto #lisp - I was having my head examined every day.
2014-08-19T01:08:45Z stacksmith: drmeister: some would say that if there are differences between the CL standard and an implementation, that implementation is not CL... I'm somewhat surprised you didn't go after a lower hanging fruit, like scheme...
2014-08-19T01:10:59Z drmeister: As far as I'm concerned there is a massive missed opportunity in not writing a Common Lisp that interoperates with C++.   All the best, modern libraries are written in C++ and Common Lisp can't use them.   The only way to use them is to spend inordinate amounts of time writing crippled C wrapper libraries that break every time the library changes.   I know - I've done this with libraries that interoperate with Pyt
2014-08-19T01:10:59Z drmeister: hon.
2014-08-19T01:12:10Z drmeister: Scheme doesn't have real macros because it has one namespace - it's crippled.
2014-08-19T01:12:19Z Clarice: ^
2014-08-19T01:12:19Z fe[nl]ix: drmeister: try (funcall (lambda (&key a) a) :allow-other-keys t :b 2)
2014-08-19T01:12:43Z stacksmith: That is sensible.  Back when I was younger and more arrogant, I tried implementing C++ that compiled functions interactively, with a Lisp-like REPL.  I got pretty far before realizing that it's pretty much impossible.
2014-08-19T01:12:57Z stacksmith: And yes, I agree with your assessment of Scheme.
2014-08-19T01:13:39Z fe[nl]ix: stacksmith: it is possible, there's a ready project for that
2014-08-19T01:13:56Z fe[nl]ix: made by CERN, IIRC
2014-08-19T01:14:02Z fe[nl]ix: can't find the link now
2014-08-19T01:14:03Z drmeister: Scheme is built on continuations with call/cc and tail-calls - those were things I had no idea at the time how to implement with LLVM.
2014-08-19T01:14:34Z stacksmith: fe[nl]ix: I will do my best to avoid looking at it.  I've had enough C++ for my lifetime.
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2014-08-19T01:15:09Z drmeister: So the options were invent my own Lisp and have to document it and convince people to use it (a fools errand) or implement the one true Lisp   Common Lisp.   I chose the Common Lisp route.
2014-08-19T01:15:59Z fe[nl]ix: drmeister: how does your implementation eval that form ?
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2014-08-19T01:16:34Z stacksmith: I will now remove my hat and stand silently for a minute to celebrate your courage and commitment.
2014-08-19T01:17:16Z drmeister: fe[nl]ix: I can't eval anything at the moment.  My implementations guts are all over the workshop as I'm trying to get the MPS library working again.
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2014-08-19T01:19:15Z drmeister: I'm working on the bootstrapping system. It's like trying to assemble an airplane in a closet.
2014-08-19T01:19:37Z stacksmith: My hat is still off.
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2014-08-19T01:19:48Z drmeister: 90% of the Common Lisp functionality isn't there - I write everything in pidgin Common Lisp.
2014-08-19T01:20:08Z drmeister: (tagbody a (print "Help me") (go a))
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2014-08-19T01:20:46Z Clarice: All hail the lisp-7
2014-08-19T01:21:01Z stacksmith: Aye.
2014-08-19T01:21:28Z Clarice: Naggum has a good post where he describes Schemers as people who keep everything in the kitchen on the countertops in the open and then suddenly freak out about cleanliness
2014-08-19T01:21:57Z stacksmith: Naggum has a lot of 'hygiene' gems.
2014-08-19T01:22:20Z drmeister: My mother-in-law must be a latent Schemer.
2014-08-19T01:22:46Z Clarice: Avoid the dinner parties, then.
2014-08-19T01:23:28Z stacksmith: Ones with macros, anyway.
2014-08-19T01:30:18Z drmeister: stacksmith: I get a lot of help from people in #lisp.  There's no way I'd be as far as I am without that guidance.
2014-08-19T01:32:20Z Xach: only in it for the cut of the ipo
2014-08-19T01:32:59Z stacksmith: drmeister: I find this community exceptionally helpful.  I don't know why lisp community has such a bad rep.
2014-08-19T01:33:26Z drmeister: Xach: Shhh, I'm still trying to convince our IP people that there's no money in another Common Lisp implementation.
2014-08-19T01:34:32Z drmeister: I should have called it YACL.
2014-08-19T01:34:43Z drmeister: Or YACL++
2014-08-19T01:34:48Z Xach: i am sad that communication with roger corman has stalled out
2014-08-19T01:34:55Z Xach: i was hoping to get a glimpse of corman lisp by now
2014-08-19T01:36:29Z stacksmith: Seeing two + signs gives me instant willies. Urghrh.
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2014-08-19T01:37:11Z Clarice: Depends on which side of the value it's on
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2014-08-19T01:41:57Z drmeister: Clarice: You raise a very good point.    It should be ++YACL
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2014-08-19T01:46:21Z Xach: +YACL+, because it's constant-ly improving
2014-08-19T01:46:28Z Clarice: :o
2014-08-19T01:46:41Z stacksmith: *YACL*, because it's dynamic
2014-08-19T01:46:44Z Xach: if *foo* has earmuffs, i wonder what +bar+ has. tombstones?
2014-08-19T01:46:54Z Clarice: ninja stars
2014-08-19T01:47:07Z Clarice: "Don't mutate me! I'll cut you!"
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2014-08-19T01:47:19Z stacksmith: "Sit on this!"
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2014-08-19T01:58:26Z White_Flame: Vivitron`: thanks, just got your slime readtable message
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2014-08-19T02:49:45Z csziacobus: is there any chance funcall could use sbcl's interpreter instead of compiler?
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2014-08-19T02:50:49Z Xach: csziacobus: I think so. But I think that's determined by the target of the funcall, not funcall itself. What prompts the question?
2014-08-19T02:51:34Z csziacobus: xach: i was experimenting with a scheme compiler, and when timing the toplevel function i get that some forms were interpreted
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2014-08-19T02:52:13Z csziacobus: a scheme compiler written in cl, for clarification
2014-08-19T02:52:28Z Xach: if you haven't manually enabled the interpreter, it is probably something in the internals that's using the interpreter for performance
2014-08-19T02:52:42Z Xach: csziacobus: sounds like a neat project. how's it going?
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2014-08-19T02:53:18Z Xach: i wanted to get the granddaddy of such things going, pseudoscheme, but haven't had the time to spend on it.
2014-08-19T02:53:36Z csziacobus: Xach: pretty much the basics done, its nothing really, just leveraging the sbcl native compiler by translating scheme code into cl closure
2014-08-19T02:54:11Z Xach: ah
2014-08-19T02:55:19Z Xach: csziacobus: are you worried about the interpreter being a bottleneck or something?
2014-08-19T02:55:34Z csziacobus: no, i just thought sbcl never used the interpreter
2014-08-19T02:56:38Z Xach: it does in some circumstances. the compiler is so heavyweight that it can be faster to interpret for certain things.
2014-08-19T02:57:14Z Clarice: I think I remember hearing from someone that SBCL wasn't particularly good at interpreting compared to other CL interpreters
2014-08-19T02:57:41Z Xach: Its interpreter is not like other interpreters. It is for performance, not interactivity/debuggability.
2014-08-19T02:57:54Z Clarice: Ah, ok. That actually clears up a lot.
2014-08-19T02:58:54Z Xach: i know some people who, on other implementations, always used the interpreter for its superior debuggability and introspective abilities (like always doing macroexpansion so you don't have to recompile all macro users)
2014-08-19T02:59:03Z Xach: but then compiled when delivering something
2014-08-19T02:59:15Z Xach: sbcl doesn't offer that kind of tradeoff
2014-08-19T02:59:36Z Xach: yet?
2014-08-19T02:59:40Z Clarice: I think pjb mentioned something like that.
2014-08-19T02:59:46Z csziacobus: well cmucl had it pretty sure
2014-08-19T02:59:46Z Xach: some hero can add it someday!
2014-08-19T02:59:56Z csziacobus: i guess it could be reinstated with some effort
2014-08-19T03:00:37Z Xach: I don't quite remember, but I think cmucl had both an interpreter and a bytecode machine of some sort, something that took a lot of internal wrangling to support.
2014-08-19T03:00:43Z Xach: it was ripped out to simplify sbcl
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2014-08-19T03:01:32Z Xach: (i wish there were more sbcl hackers around to make me feel more confident about my answers, or to give better ones if confidence is unwarranted)
2014-08-19T03:01:48Z Clarice: Does CMUCL still have regular releases?
2014-08-19T03:02:17Z Xach: Hmm, I don't think it has, lately, but it did not too long ago.
2014-08-19T03:02:31Z Xach: There are still people who love and strongly prefer it.
2014-08-19T03:02:51Z loke: Xach: What is it about CMUCL that would make him prefer it to SBCL?
2014-08-19T03:03:01Z Clarice: loke: Probably the aforementioned bytecode interpreter.
2014-08-19T03:03:10Z loke: I'm wondering, because I never had the opportunity to test CMUCL since it's pretty mcuh impossible to build.
2014-08-19T03:03:23Z csziacobus: loke: also a block compilation optimizations
2014-08-19T03:03:27Z Clarice: It seems that there's a snapshot every month of CMUCL! That might just be automated, though.
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2014-08-19T03:04:22Z Clarice: And there's a release at least every year since 2006, so I wouldn't call it dead. :)
2014-08-19T03:04:26Z Xach: loke: it has more add-ons, something a little like you'd get with a commercial project. it has (had?) its own hemlock, an IPC thingy called WIRE, and some other add-ons.
2014-08-19T03:04:48Z loke: Xach: Interesting
2014-08-19T03:04:57Z Xach: loke: and if you're used to something, and you like it, and you're used to however it works, change can be hard
2014-08-19T03:05:16Z loke: Xach: Well that's true enough
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2014-08-19T03:06:16Z Xach: loke: I'm sure there are a lot more reasons to like cmucl. i started with it, but it does a lot of things that confused me as a newbie, and i didn't know how to adjust to them. sbcl seemed to fit more with how i thought. and i didn't miss things ripped out from cmucl because i wasn't used to them.
2014-08-19T03:07:13Z loke: OK, I started with CLISP way back in the day. But ever since I _really_ started using Lisp, I've only really used SBCL + some ABCL when I needed Java interoperability.
2014-08-19T03:08:30Z Xach: cmucl's default behavior is to print out info whenever it conses a certain amount
2014-08-19T03:08:39Z Xach: for me it was like getting a text message every third heartbeat
2014-08-19T03:09:34Z Xach: to be sure, i think disabling it is faq entry #1, but it was stuff like that that confused and disoriented me at a time when i didn't have much to hold on to
2014-08-19T03:10:17Z Xach: i also had a hard time getting it to work together with ILISP. i'm sure it was just me, but sbcl worked with ILISP for me right away.
2014-08-19T03:10:28Z loke: What's ILISP?
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2014-08-19T03:10:55Z Xach: something similar to SLIME but with a different IPC mechanism and fewer (iirc) features
2014-08-19T03:11:17Z loke: Oh wait. You mean the old Emacs inferior lisp mode?
2014-08-19T03:11:34Z Xach: When I used it, I think the default way it communicated was by spawning it in a process buffer and communicating by parsing the printed output.
2014-08-19T03:11:48Z Xach: It got out of sync a lot for me.
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2014-08-19T03:12:18Z Xach: loke: it wasn't built in to emacs, but yes, it was an inferior lisp system
2014-08-19T03:12:28Z loke: :-)
2014-08-19T03:12:59Z drmeister: I'm running into a problem - not sure where it is:    (translate-logical-pathname cmp::part-bitcode-pathname) --> #P"/Users/meister/Development/clasp/src/lisp/build/system/min-boehm/kernel;min_image.bc"      NOTE the ";" between kernel and min_image at the end of the result
2014-08-19T03:13:02Z loke: Yes, that's what I started doing when I developed the GNU APL mode for Emacs. Then soon I realised it was untenable, so I developed a native backend to do it.
2014-08-19T03:13:29Z Xach: it worked well enough for me that i resisted jumping to slime for quite a while. it took a screencast of someone using it to help me understand how much more supportive it was.
2014-08-19T03:13:31Z drmeister: cmp::part-bitcode-pathname   --> #P"MIN-BOEHM:KERNEL;MIN_IMAGE.BC.NEWEST"
2014-08-19T03:13:44Z Xach: drmeister: that is an invalid logical pathname namestring
2014-08-19T03:13:56Z Xach: _ is not one of the allowed characters in a logical pathname component
2014-08-19T03:14:07Z drmeister: (logical-pathname-translations "min-boehm")  --> ((#P"MIN-BOEHM:**;*.*" #P"SYS:BUILD;SYSTEM;MIN-BOEHM;**;*.*"))
2014-08-19T03:14:32Z Xach: I don't know if that's causing your trouble, though. I think some systems don't check or don't care strongly about sticking to the specified syntax.
2014-08-19T03:14:34Z drmeister: Really?   Is that what's causing the problem?
2014-08-19T03:14:48Z loke: I don't think I've ever been able to use logical pathname translations properly.
2014-08-19T03:14:55Z loke: I've just resigned to using namestrings
2014-08-19T03:15:29Z loke: it works everywhere where it's relevant anyway. I think theonly "real" system that uses a different method is Z/OS and I don't think it has a CL.
2014-08-19T03:15:40Z Xach: loke: drmeister and i talked a bit about that earlier. i think it may be one of those things that takes someone giving them really good exposition and justification, and then people might use them sensibly.
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2014-08-19T03:16:07Z Xach: loke: or whomever does that research finally decides/discover the situation can't be salvaged
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2014-08-19T03:16:25Z loke: Xach: Well sure. I agree that the underlying idea is great. It's just that it's overdesigned where it's not needed and, and underdesigned where it's needed.
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2014-08-19T03:17:29Z drmeister: Hmm, the problem appears to be the pathname-name part:   (pathname-name cmp::part-bitcode-pathname) --> "KERNEL;MIN_IMAGE"
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2014-08-19T03:17:53Z loke: drmeister: Is your CL open source yet?
2014-08-19T03:18:06Z drmeister: loke: No, not yet (sigh)
2014-08-19T03:18:19Z drmeister: Waiting for the lawyers.
2014-08-19T03:18:34Z drmeister: In the meantime, fixing, cleaning etc.
2014-08-19T03:19:40Z drmeister: This is a bad idea - right?   (pathname "kernel;min_image.bundle")    How do I specify a logical pathname without a host?   Should I use MAKE-PATHNAME rather than using a string?
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2014-08-19T03:23:17Z drmeister: Nevermind, I'll just drop the KERNEL relative path - I don't need it.
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2014-08-19T03:27:22Z Clarice: loke: I once read: "I would prefer my paths to have, you know, structure to them", and I think I agree.
2014-08-19T03:27:51Z Clarice: drmeister: Did you summarily decide on the LGPL to avoid leopard spotted licensing?
2014-08-19T03:29:38Z drmeister: Yeah, I think LGPL is most appropriate.  There's even prose from Franz Inc. on LGPL for Common Lisp.
2014-08-19T03:29:40Z loke: Clarice: Perhaps he's included other LGPL licensed code?
2014-08-19T03:30:09Z Clarice: drmeister: Does that mean you're going to use the LLGPL or just the LGPL?
2014-08-19T03:30:23Z loke: drmeister: That argument is to favour LGPL before GPL (which makes sense, since GPL is difficult to apply to Lisp). It's not a defence of LGPL in favour of, say, BSD.
2014-08-19T03:31:27Z drmeister is thinking about using the LLLLGPL  "Ludicrously Long Lisp Lesser General Public License".
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2014-08-19T03:31:40Z Clarice: Then you'd never hear back from your lawyers!
2014-08-19T03:32:06Z Zhivago: drmeister: Why not make a host for system files?
2014-08-19T03:32:23Z drmeister: Zhivago: What is that?
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2014-08-19T03:33:28Z stacksmith: Most important question to ask before hiring IP lawyers: how much money do you honestly expect to make from your product?
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2014-08-19T03:35:13Z loke: stacksmith: Not if you have a policial agenda. I don't think the FSF intends to make much money on the products.
2014-08-19T03:35:14Z drmeister: stacksmith: I didn't hire them.  I'm a University professor - in a very real sense they own what I build.  In return I get royalties (not for this) and legal protection.
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2014-08-19T03:36:14Z loke: drmeister: And I know how you feel. I'm still waiting for my employer's lawyers to come back to me with the copyright release needed for me to make contributons to Emacs.
2014-08-19T03:36:47Z stacksmith: Do your employers actually pay you to do this?
2014-08-19T03:37:55Z Clarice: loke: Oh, that's bollocks.
2014-08-19T03:38:17Z loke: Clarice: Yes, I know. It sucks but that's the way things are.
2014-08-19T03:38:49Z drmeister: stacksmith: Are you asking me?
2014-08-19T03:39:07Z stacksmith: Sure!
2014-08-19T03:39:44Z drmeister: I'm a research professor - this is necessary for my research.
2014-08-19T03:41:00Z drmeister: I'm tired of writing complex programs in crap languages.
2014-08-19T03:41:07Z Clarice: amen
2014-08-19T03:41:20Z stacksmith: I am, unfortunately, a research bum -- no one is paying me for this.
2014-08-19T03:42:51Z drmeister: Anyone who says that the language doesn't matter hasn't written enough software to have an opinion.
2014-08-19T03:43:25Z Clarice: Or is a software engineer.
2014-08-19T03:43:38Z loke: drmeister: Such statements are usually coming from PHP bums trying to justify not learning a real language.
2014-08-19T03:43:42Z stacksmith: Or a Java programmer?
2014-08-19T03:43:47Z loke: "But, but! Facebook!"
2014-08-19T03:44:09Z Clarice: Facebook has been migrating its code base to a wide variety of languages over the past few years.
2014-08-19T03:44:42Z loke: Clarice: Good for them. Not that that will make me change my opinion of FB
2014-08-19T03:45:02Z drmeister: The only problem I see with Common Lisp is that it can't easily make use of C++ libraries.   Hence Clasp.
2014-08-19T03:45:27Z Clarice: drmeister: ...I can name 3 other things.
2014-08-19T03:45:27Z loke: drmeister: What C++ libraries is it that you so desperately want to use?
2014-08-19T03:47:02Z drmeister: Not just C++ but my own C++ library (called CANDO), openmm, openmpi, llvm, cl-conspack, numerical libraries.
2014-08-19T03:47:47Z Clarice: Lightweight concurrency would be wonderful (still working on hacking lparallel apart for that purpose)
2014-08-19T03:48:00Z Clarice: *nonblocking asynchronous concurrency
2014-08-19T03:49:09Z stacksmith: A GC suitable for real-time tasks.
2014-08-19T03:49:46Z stacksmith: These are implementation issues though.
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2014-08-19T03:55:25Z Shaftoe___: well, oGMo, Xach: after doing some finicking around, I've actually decided not to use OpenCV at all!!! and reimplement algorithms.
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2014-08-19T04:04:41Z drmeister: Clarice: What do you mean by lightweight concurrency?  I exposed OpenMPI and I plan to use cl-conspack to transmit data between tens of thousands of processes.
2014-08-19T04:05:34Z drmeister: Concurrency as in multi-threading is barely useful to me.  I need tens, hundreds of thousands of processes working together.
2014-08-19T04:09:57Z White_Flame: Xach:  If you're running SBCL 1.2.2, can you quickload fare-quasiquote-readtable, and have it work?
2014-08-19T04:10:20Z drmeister: I'm not blowing smoke either. When I still just had an archaic Lisp interpreter I was running it on 40,000 processors on Kraken, a supercomputer that was on the Teragrid but has been decommissioned by now.
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2014-08-19T04:21:49Z Clarice: drmeister: Oh, MPI is overkill for what I was talking about. Just general erlang style lightweight processes that communicate by message passing.
2014-08-19T04:22:18Z drmeister: How many processors can you do that over?
2014-08-19T04:22:53Z Clarice: Interestingly enough, Erlang actually finds itself limited at about 15, but theoretically infinite
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2014-08-19T04:23:23Z nightfly: You can distribute over multiple machines too, but I never got that far
2014-08-19T04:23:52Z drmeister: Not theoretically infinite.  In parallel processing you trade a processing bottleneck for a communications bottleneck.  Only special problems can scale.
2014-08-19T04:24:17Z Clarice: drmeister: From what I know, OpenMPI is used for special machines with bare operating systems
2014-08-19T04:24:41Z drmeister: Speedups of 10 are easy, 100 hard, 1000 very difficult - beyond that only embarrassingly parallelizable problems can scale.
2014-08-19T04:24:43Z Clarice: You wouldn't use it to multithread a userspace application on a typically linux box
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2014-08-19T04:25:13Z drmeister: Only for testing.
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2014-08-19T04:25:36Z Clarice: I don't work in the field of high performance computing :P
2014-08-19T04:25:49Z Clarice: drmeister: Did you actually use Lisp for HPC?
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2014-08-19T04:26:51Z drmeister: Yes.
2014-08-19T04:27:11Z Clarice: What was this for, simulations?
2014-08-19T04:27:13Z drmeister: It's great for organizing things.
2014-08-19T04:27:16Z loke: Recently by eldoc in SLIME has been acting up. Now when I press space after typing a function name, the definition flashes briefly in the minibuffer and then disappears.
2014-08-19T04:27:24Z loke: Is this something that any of you have seen before?
2014-08-19T04:27:31Z drmeister: Conformational analysis of molecules.
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2014-08-19T04:29:17Z csziacobus: loke: ive seen this on emacs-git
2014-08-19T04:30:00Z loke: csziacobus: Yes, that's what I'm using
2014-08-19T04:30:22Z csziacobus: loke: yea, i have the same issue
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2014-08-19T04:30:40Z csziacobus: loke: the slime repl also seems to lose font-coloring
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2014-08-19T04:32:05Z loke: It's weird. I've tracked the code into the place where the thing is updated. It doesn't happen when eldoc is disabled (which triggers a call to slime-show-arglist), but when it's enabled and eldoc-message is called
2014-08-19T04:32:37Z loke: Now the interesting thing is that eldoc-message calls eldoc-message-function, and when I call that one manually, the message stays
2014-08-19T04:34:02Z loke: Ohh, I found it!
2014-08-19T04:35:34Z csziacobus: loke: ?
2014-08-19T04:35:51Z csziacobus: loke: where?
2014-08-19T04:35:52Z loke: There is a timer that triggers a call to eldoc-print-current-symbol-info
2014-08-19T04:36:13Z loke: that one results in a call to eldoc-message with a nil arg which is what clears the message after 0.5 seconds
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2014-08-19T04:38:25Z loke: So, there are two ways the eldoc info can be disaplayed: Either immediately after pressing space, or by the print-current-symbol-info. The latter clears the result of the former
2014-08-19T04:39:20Z loke: The weird thing is that when I move the cursor to the same spot, the correct info is displayed, so one would expect that it would simply update again with the same information
2014-08-19T04:40:24Z loke: The problem is that eldoc-display-message-p seems to return nil in that case
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2014-08-19T04:47:37Z loke: Yay! Fixed it!
2014-08-19T04:47:46Z csziacobus: loke: nice!
2014-08-19T04:47:52Z loke: Add this to your .emacs:
2014-08-19T04:47:52Z loke: (eldoc-add-command 'slime-space)
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2014-08-19T04:48:44Z csziacobus: loke: thanks
2014-08-19T04:48:56Z loke: Slime should do that automatically
2014-08-19T04:49:16Z csziacobus: although i think it works on the latest stable
2014-08-19T04:49:18Z csziacobus: emacs
2014-08-19T04:51:26Z csziacobus: loke: is font coloring for the pretty repl also broken for you?
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2014-08-19T04:57:34Z loke: csziacobus: No, that works fine for me
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2014-08-19T05:00:00Z loke: I only get it if I enable eldoc though, I think
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2014-08-19T06:10:53Z moah: hello
2014-08-19T06:11:52Z moah: i have a class A, then class B inheriting from A.
2014-08-19T06:12:40Z zRecursive: (defclass A (B) ...)
2014-08-19T06:12:49Z moah: i have to run initialize-instance :after with code that is common to A, then common to B and code that has to be exectuted with every of them.
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2014-08-19T06:13:36Z moah: i'm doing it right now with (case (type-of obj) ..), but is there some more elegant way to do this?
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2014-08-19T06:30:24Z pillton: Why can't you do (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((instance A) &key) and (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((instance B))?
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2014-08-19T07:27:25Z InvalidCo: heh
2014-08-19T07:27:34Z InvalidCo: looks like I just managed to break sbcl accidentally
2014-08-19T07:27:54Z InvalidCo: I didn't remember that compile is a reserved function
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2014-08-19T07:28:11Z InvalidCo: so I had an accessor by that name, I think
2014-08-19T07:28:15Z InvalidCo: then something happened
2014-08-19T07:28:58Z InvalidCo: now when I try to add an instance of the class to a hashtable, the repl complains
2014-08-19T07:29:19Z InvalidCo: no applicable method for generic function COMPILE (NIL)
2014-08-19T07:29:25Z Zhivago: cl:compile is reserved.
2014-08-19T07:29:45Z Zhivago: Just don't have cl:compile imported into the package where you define that accessor.
2014-08-19T07:30:01Z InvalidCo: yeah, yeah, but I don't fully understand how I managed to break this
2014-08-19T07:30:35Z InvalidCo: I guess setf-gethash calls compile on the val?
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2014-08-19T07:31:45Z Krystof: you'd have had to accept multiple scary restarts to define a compile instance accessor
2014-08-19T07:32:35Z InvalidCo: I have no recollection of accepting any restarts
2014-08-19T07:32:37Z InvalidCo: oh well
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2014-08-19T07:33:55Z InvalidCo: guess I'll just reload all
2014-08-19T07:34:10Z Krystof: is it possible that you have multiple packages with different COMPILE symbols?
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2014-08-19T07:34:40Z InvalidCo: oh wait, now I see it
2014-08-19T07:34:43Z InvalidCo: it wasn't compile
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2014-08-19T07:34:46Z InvalidCo: it was COMPILE-FN
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2014-08-19T07:36:27Z InvalidCo: hmh
2014-08-19T07:36:34Z InvalidCo: I can't even find the actual function
2014-08-19T07:36:41Z InvalidCo: I REALLY wonder what happened here
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2014-08-19T08:29:19Z petergil: b
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2014-08-19T09:02:47Z dim: cl-chunga_1.1.5-1_amd64.changes uploaded successfully to localhost
2014-08-19T09:03:00Z dim: debian package uploads in progress ;-)
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2014-08-19T09:29:18Z loke: Why would you want to have CL packages as debian packages? It just messes things up
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2014-08-19T09:34:18Z dim: to debian package lisp applications
2014-08-19T09:34:27Z dim: such as (drumroll) pgloader
2014-08-19T09:34:55Z dim: loke: I did an automated Quicklisp based update for my debian packages, so that it will be easy enough to update each month
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2014-08-19T09:45:34Z loke: diginet: My point is that the debian stuff adds no benefit. Indeed, it can confuse things. It's better to just use QL
2014-08-19T09:45:59Z H4ns: loke: he can't be talked out of it.
2014-08-19T09:46:50Z loke: Far too many times have a I helped people who are trying to use some Lisp library and it turns out they installed it from some Linux package manager
2014-08-19T09:46:56Z loke: It neevr ends well
2014-08-19T09:47:21Z AeroNotix: Why would they need to install the libraries, if the debian package is just the application binary. What else does it need?
2014-08-19T09:47:35Z H4ns: loke: i agree that it is a bad idea and i've tried to talk dim out of the attempt, but he is too stubborn.
2014-08-19T09:47:37Z H4ns: dim: :D
2014-08-19T09:48:06Z dim: hell yes I am
2014-08-19T09:48:19Z dim: my understanding is that's for good reasons tho
2014-08-19T09:48:26Z dim: or I would stop caring
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2014-08-19T09:48:30Z loke: AeroNotix: there is no application binary. This is about having a debian package that packages a library. So instead of doing QL:QUICKLOAD "cl-ppcre", you're apt-get install cl-ppcre
2014-08-19T09:48:49Z AeroNotix: loke: right yes, that's is pretty dumb
2014-08-19T09:48:56Z loke: AeroNotix: Indeed :-)
2014-08-19T09:49:14Z AeroNotix: I have cl-ppcre as an arch package -- because someone packaged stumpwm depending on it. But it's so flakey and breaks a lot
2014-08-19T09:49:19Z H4ns: dim: in the end, it will be us who have to support people who are confused by the mess that results from installing half of the cl development environment from system packages and the other half from quicklisp.
2014-08-19T09:49:22Z prxq: well, the point of debian packages is software that is installed by end users, not developers.
2014-08-19T09:49:25Z dim: yeah, apt-get install cl-ppcre then the .asd is to be found in usr/share/common-lisp/systems and the sources in usr/share/common-lisp/source/cl-ppcre
2014-08-19T09:49:29Z prxq: or any package manager
2014-08-19T09:49:37Z dim: so if your asdf knows how to load from there, you're good to go
2014-08-19T09:49:51Z dim: note that this doesn't preclude using QL
2014-08-19T09:50:11Z H4ns: dim: the canonical reply to people trying to use system-installed packages is "get rid of them, install your cl environment from sbcl.org and quicklisp"
2014-08-19T09:50:11Z dim: it just makes it possible to have a pgloader binary package in debian with the right set of build-depends
2014-08-19T09:50:35Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: you're not forced to use the AUR for non-repository packages
2014-08-19T09:50:41Z loke: dim: Just package everything in the pgloader package. There is no need to split this into multiple packages
2014-08-19T09:50:50Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: you're free to write your own PKGBUILDs and build your own packages from them
2014-08-19T09:50:51Z dim: H4ns: ql:where-is-system will help you debug
2014-08-19T09:50:52Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: sure, of course. I just added it because it was a build depends. I don't use it personally.
2014-08-19T09:51:09Z AeroNotix: I just wanted to make sure that other people could use it with the stumpwm pkgbuild that's already out there
2014-08-19T09:51:12Z H4ns: dim: i can help myself, by not installing anything cl related from the system.
2014-08-19T09:51:22Z dim: loke: and then when I package pginstall, which uses like 10 libs in common with pgloader, I redo it all, and how do I update?
2014-08-19T09:51:43Z dim: H4ns: sure, and if you end up doing `apt-get install pgloader` it will *NOT* install anything CL for you
2014-08-19T09:52:09Z loke: dim: Both of them include the same libs. OR you create a single package called pgloader-shared or somehting that holds it but does not interfere with anything else CL-related
2014-08-19T09:52:12Z dim: whereas with "put the depends in the package" it would have maybe polluted your devel env
2014-08-19T09:52:17Z H4ns: dim: i understand.  that is why i gave up on trying to talk you out of it :)
2014-08-19T09:52:23Z dim: cool
2014-08-19T09:52:40Z dim: what I agree on is that it's lots of work for a very small result
2014-08-19T09:52:45Z H4ns: loke: his reasons are "sound" for some value of "sound" :)
2014-08-19T09:52:56Z dim: "the debian way"™
2014-08-19T09:53:41Z dim: the other thing is that some CL libs are already packaged in debian and are awfully old, and not maintained
2014-08-19T09:53:45Z dim: I'm also going to refresh them
2014-08-19T09:53:53Z loke: dim: It's better to eliminate them
2014-08-19T09:54:05Z loke: No one should ever use them anyway
2014-08-19T09:54:08Z dim: with the mostly-automated updating of them from Quicklisp, I hope I will be in a position to disagree
2014-08-19T09:54:21Z dim: so, we just don't have the same audience
2014-08-19T09:54:34Z loke: This all just reminds me of why I stopped using debian.
2014-08-19T09:54:42Z dim: I don't target CL hackers, but debian admins who have to compile/install a tool that happens to be coded in CL
2014-08-19T09:54:46Z loke: Breaking half by system when a single package needed upgrade
2014-08-19T09:54:58Z dim: if you're a CL hacker, then you don't need no cl-* debian package, agreed
2014-08-19T09:55:29Z dim: if you're just trying to build a newer version of pgloader, apt-get build-dep pgloader then backport a new version as usual
2014-08-19T09:55:31Z loke: the problem is that if you have a tool, an old one, probably, that is dependent on some library and the library gets updated the tool stops working.
2014-08-19T09:55:50Z loke: It's better to just ship the versions of the libraries that works with the tool itself. That way it's self-contained
2014-08-19T09:55:53Z H4ns: loke: did you not just say that you don't use debian?
2014-08-19T09:56:06Z loke: H4ns: I don't anymore. No.
2014-08-19T09:56:28Z dim: so you won't have that problem
2014-08-19T09:56:32Z H4ns: loke: so you don't use debian, and you don't know the debian way, why do you care?  just asking.
2014-08-19T09:56:41Z dim: again, I agree with your viewpoint, I'm just targetting a whole different audience
2014-08-19T09:56:44Z dim: I think.
2014-08-19T09:57:01Z loke: H4ns: I'm arguing out of compassion for the users who will face broken software
2014-08-19T09:57:01Z dim: ok, lunch time here
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2014-08-19T09:58:02Z H4ns: loke: we're going to tell them that, if they've installed any cl related packages from debian, they want to uninstall them if they want to do cl development.
2014-08-19T09:58:27Z H4ns: loke: like we did.  dim is just trolling us by mentioning what he does here as if it affects us :)
2014-08-19T09:58:31Z loke: H4ns: right, and then their pgloader or whatever tool that depend on it will be uninstalled together with it
2014-08-19T09:58:37Z H4ns: loke: nope.
2014-08-19T09:58:42Z AeroNotix: this is why I prefer arch as a development machine and other distros for server distros
2014-08-19T09:58:52Z loke: AeroNotix: That's what I use
2014-08-19T09:59:00Z AeroNotix: yupp
2014-08-19T09:59:03Z loke: I mean that's what I do
2014-08-19T09:59:29Z wasamasa: hmm
2014-08-19T09:59:42Z wasamasa: can't imagine using a different server than development machine yet
2014-08-19T09:59:59Z mood: AeroNotix: How does Arch solve the problem?
2014-08-19T10:00:20Z AeroNotix: mood: lots of up-to-date packages that seem to be quickly fixed when they break, because of the culture of "bleeding edge"
2014-08-19T10:00:27Z AeroNotix: so you can often trust packages to be usable
2014-08-19T10:00:29Z AeroNotix: (often, not always)
2014-08-19T10:00:43Z mood: AeroNotix: Ah, that's what you mean.
2014-08-19T10:00:47Z AeroNotix: the problem is; for server deploys, you need them to be easily repeatable. Arch is not entirely repeatable.
2014-08-19T10:01:14Z loke: AeroNotix: That's why you don't deploy arch on the server unless you're machosistic
2014-08-19T10:01:19Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: try scripting an arch install for a cluster of machines, then have one of those machines fail 6 mo later. You will *not* be able to reproduce it
2014-08-19T10:01:26Z AeroNotix: loke: yes, this
2014-08-19T10:01:39Z loke: Dor for dev machines it's awesome
2014-08-19T10:01:44Z loke: Dor=But
2014-08-19T10:01:51Z AeroNotix: Agreed.
2014-08-19T10:01:55Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: no clusters yet
2014-08-19T10:02:00Z mood: I, uh, have an Arch server. It's just a vps for toying around though.
2014-08-19T10:02:01Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: just a vps I'm experimenting on
2014-08-19T10:02:08Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: we have ~200 machines in production
2014-08-19T10:02:30Z loke: AeroNotix: Only?
2014-08-19T10:02:40Z H4ns: how would a system that can't be repeatably deployed be "awesome" for anything?
2014-08-19T10:02:42Z AeroNotix: loke: it's a small depoloyment, I know,
2014-08-19T10:02:57Z AeroNotix: H4ns: use cases are different, development and deployment are different stories
2014-08-19T10:03:21Z AeroNotix: and saying "You want both environments the same" actually means "I don't understand my application's dependencies"
2014-08-19T10:03:27Z H4ns: AeroNotix: i will not touch a dev environment that i cannot repeatably deploy in half a day.
2014-08-19T10:03:52Z AeroNotix: H4ns: all my development environments are ephemeral
2014-08-19T10:03:54Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: hmm, perhaps that's my issue
2014-08-19T10:03:58Z H4ns: "oh sorry, my machine failed and my backup does not work, i have to spend a few days compiling stuff and setting up my dev box" is a way to get fired.
2014-08-19T10:04:14Z AeroNotix: H4ns: arch is mostly binary based
2014-08-19T10:04:28Z AeroNotix: it also has the AUR, which is a collection of community packages. Very easy to get up and running
2014-08-19T10:04:33Z AeroNotix: I guess you use a mac?
2014-08-19T10:04:36Z H4ns: i don't care if you waste your time using binaries or source.
2014-08-19T10:04:39Z AeroNotix: (just guessing, most people do now)
2014-08-19T10:04:42Z H4ns: i use macs, windows, linux
2014-08-19T10:04:49Z AeroNotix: as a development machine?
2014-08-19T10:05:01Z H4ns: yes.
2014-08-19T10:05:01Z loke: I used a windows machine for development once
2014-08-19T10:05:07Z loke: That was terrible
2014-08-19T10:05:14Z loke: (I had to use VC6)
2014-08-19T10:05:47Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: can't figure out the dependencies for packages depending on C libraries yet
2014-08-19T10:06:04Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: ah, C libraries are a bit tougher
2014-08-19T10:06:12Z AeroNotix: Personally, I find them particularly annoying
2014-08-19T10:07:14Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: the rest isn't really a problem
2014-08-19T10:07:40Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: on arch machines I have a recent ruby interpreter, on debian ones I'd have to use rbenv
2014-08-19T10:07:43Z AeroNotix: We deploy a C application to millions of consumer devices.
2014-08-19T10:07:45Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: and with that it's mostly done
2014-08-19T10:07:55Z AeroNotix: We "vendor" the libraries we need, literally include them in the source tree.
2014-08-19T10:07:59Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: however figuring out what packages contain which headers is a bit tougher
2014-08-19T10:08:17Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: yeah that's why we just vendor these libraries with teh application's source tree.
2014-08-19T10:08:19Z AeroNotix: Easier
2014-08-19T10:08:37Z wasamasa: like the ycm package on github?
2014-08-19T10:08:43Z AeroNotix: Never heard of it
2014-08-19T10:08:49Z wasamasa: or wait, that one vendors the python stuff
2014-08-19T10:09:13Z AeroNotix: virtualenv (python) works ok. Sometimes you don't want to install packages from the internet though
2014-08-19T10:09:16Z wasamasa: well, it's a project that gives you clang, python and generic completion for vim
2014-08-19T10:09:25Z wasamasa: recently it's been extended to work for other editors
2014-08-19T10:09:40Z wasamasa: so I hope to write an emacs frontend for it since it has pretty nice matching, ranking and all that
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2014-08-19T10:09:50Z AeroNotix: cool
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2014-08-19T10:38:03Z Cymew: dim: I had to build packages to deploy rubygems,  so I think I have been in your seat. Kind of messy sometimes.
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2014-08-19T11:20:53Z dim: H4ns: point taken, will stop "trolling" you about debian packaging QL releases
2014-08-19T11:21:42Z dim: last word about it: the intend is to push QL releases as they are made, not a year or more late, as we see with typical cl-* packages currently, hence the user problems mainly, IIUC
2014-08-19T11:26:20Z |3b|: dim: probably better to wait at least a few weeks after ql release to find out about problems... don't want to risk debian deciding to freeze on a bad one :p
2014-08-19T11:27:18Z dim: well Xach runs some testing before pushing a release in QL
2014-08-19T11:27:30Z dim: but yeah, we could do the previous one each month
2014-08-19T11:28:34Z |3b| 's understanding is that "some testing" = "builds on sbcl"
2014-08-19T11:28:48Z AeroNotix: A "weather service" could be cool
2014-08-19T11:28:57Z AeroNotix: try to build the whole dist, run all the tests in the tree.
2014-08-19T11:29:00Z dim: "they all build together" is a basic testing level that's already good to have
2014-08-19T11:29:01Z |3b|: i think there is another project that does a bit more testing
2014-08-19T11:29:12Z dim: AeroNotix: I think we already have that
2014-08-19T11:29:19Z |3b|: but even still, real usage will find more problems
2014-08-19T11:29:53Z Xach: AeroNotix: cl-test-grid does part of htat
2014-08-19T11:30:18Z |3b|: which for 1 month (or less if badd enough for an extra ql release), isn't too bad... but if a debian release happened to catch a bad time, it would be stuck for a while
2014-08-19T11:30:29Z dim: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-test-grid/quicklisp-diff.html
2014-08-19T11:30:50Z Xach: I'd like to have a way to run tests myself, but there's a lot of ground to cover. I was hoping to set up a system for people to contribute simple tests for me to run. Ah, time...
2014-08-19T11:31:32Z dim: as soon as the package enters debian then it can be considered for backports, too, so we'll see, don't want to talk details here anymore
2014-08-19T11:31:58Z |3b|: yeah, just a suggestion to think about
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2014-08-19T13:27:31Z Xach: ha. i just tried to start hacking on the emacs window inside the quicktime movie i made for AeroNotix yesterday. pretty disorienting when it started typing by itself.
2014-08-19T13:28:47Z phadthai: :)
2014-08-19T13:29:03Z phadthai: "it lags... oh no it types before me"
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2014-08-19T13:32:12Z AeroNotix: Xach: hahah! Awesome :)_
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2014-08-19T13:34:26Z Aranshada|W: Emacs has taken the final evolution step - typing what you want before you know you want it.
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2014-08-19T13:40:25Z duko: I would like to know if it is an anti-pattern to use two trees to get information for the same data
2014-08-19T13:40:46Z duko: the information is different of course, but data is the same
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2014-08-19T13:41:05Z H4ns: duko: we're not using patterns and anti-patterns much in lisp
2014-08-19T13:41:23Z H4ns: duko: we'll do whatever works.
2014-08-19T13:42:06Z H4ns: duko: why would two trees be bad?  consider them to be two different indices.
2014-08-19T13:44:18Z duko: H4ns: thank you
2014-08-19T13:44:52Z duko: I've only recently begun using them for things
2014-08-19T13:45:39Z duko: and now they're a solution to every problem which makes me question myself
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2014-08-19T13:46:45Z H4ns: duko: many patterns are tied to features (or lack of features) in classic object oriented languages.  by applying them to lisp programs, you'll be missing out on the features (or lack of restrictions) that lisp offers.
2014-08-19T13:48:11Z eudoxia: plus, you've already avoided the biggest anti-pattern of all
2014-08-19T13:48:23Z duko: eudoxia: what's that?
2014-08-19T13:48:28Z H4ns: the suspense is killing me
2014-08-19T13:48:34Z eudoxia: using a piece of shit language
2014-08-19T13:48:50Z eudoxia: i mean
2014-08-19T13:48:51Z eudoxia: ugh i blew it
2014-08-19T13:48:55Z H4ns: right.  like in "you chose the silver bullet, now you're entitled to write crap programs"
2014-08-19T13:48:56Z stacksmith: Generally avoiding buzzword-solutions has helped me avoiding such problems.  The ones that make me question myself.
2014-08-19T13:48:59Z eudoxia: *not* using a piece of shit language
2014-08-19T13:49:06Z Xach: eudoxia: no, it worked
2014-08-19T13:49:29Z eudoxia: i mean, the correction was wrong, the original was right
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2014-08-19T13:49:52Z eudoxia shouldn't try comedy
2014-08-19T13:50:09Z H4ns: eudoxia: you get the "smuggest" badge for today.
2014-08-19T13:51:06Z eudoxia: my lisp weenieness has grown to transcend the physical plane, and mostly resides in the sixth and seventh dimensions
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2014-08-19T13:53:40Z beach: Good day everyone!
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2014-08-19T14:15:34Z theos: hey beach !
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2014-08-19T14:17:36Z Xach: Ok, one blog report from ILC so far. Will there be others?
2014-08-19T14:17:45Z AeroNotix: link
2014-08-19T14:17:48Z AeroNotix: ?
2014-08-19T14:18:05Z H4ns: AeroNotix: planet.lisp.org
2014-08-19T14:18:26Z Xach: soon.
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2014-08-19T14:18:35Z Xach: http://enlivend.livejournal.com/53853.html is where it is now
2014-08-19T14:18:42Z AeroNotix: thanks
2014-08-19T14:18:46Z H4ns: erm. sorry.
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2014-08-19T14:19:05Z H4ns: ah, i saw it on facebook.
2014-08-19T14:19:40Z Xach: same
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2014-08-19T14:21:28Z Cymew: Hmm. So it was smaller this time. Sounds like that 14 year old is quite something!
2014-08-19T14:21:39Z Xach: How many were in Japan?
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2014-08-19T14:21:48Z Xach: Reno had around 50 people.
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2014-08-19T14:22:33Z Cymew: I've never been to any lisp conferences so I have actually no idea of how many usually attend. This was the first time I've seen a number, I think.
2014-08-19T14:24:23Z beach: I think the first ILC was more than 100.  I don't know about the recent one in Paris.
2014-08-19T14:24:34Z beach: Sorry, I meant ELS, not ILC.
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2014-08-19T14:53:39Z patrickwonders: Yesterday, I asked three questions relating to detecting when the current Lisp image was started using --NOINFORM or --BATCH or --QUIET....  It looks to me from (somewhat recent) SBCL source that this information is thrown out before any Lisp code is executed.  It looks like it's possible to detect some instances well and snoop all of the command line arguments for Clozure CL.  Anyone tackled this yet cross-implementation?
2014-08-19T14:56:06Z Xach: patrickwonders: seems unlikely
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2014-08-19T14:56:47Z patrickwonders: I didn't see anything that looked relevant using SYSTEM-APROPOS in quicklisp.
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2014-08-19T14:57:12Z Xach: Maybe fare has looked at it
2014-08-19T14:57:37Z patrickwonders: I just figured that I can't be the first person who wants something that one can stick in an init file and not make a mess in non-interactive settings.
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2014-08-19T14:58:18Z Xach: Probably not, but maybe that want hasn't percolated up enough.
2014-08-19T14:58:34Z rme: What about Didier Verna's Clon thing?
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2014-08-19T15:00:48Z patrickwonders: SBCL, it seems, strips out the flags that are consumed by SBCL itself.  By the time you get to CLON level, all that's left is the stuff after the ones SBCL was interested in.
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2014-08-19T15:41:43Z dim: qitab offers the command-line-arguments system, but I don't remember it tackling the lisp image options
2014-08-19T15:42:00Z dim: Faré usually uses command-line-arguments, I believe
2014-08-19T15:42:28Z AeroNotix: patrickwonders: What do you need this for?
2014-08-19T15:43:07Z Xach: I don't know patrickwonders's reason, but i can imagine trying to work in harmony with a user's indication to the system "don't output much, or anything"
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2014-08-19T15:43:36Z AeroNotix: Xach: sure, but wouldn't that be taken care of by a binary deployment?
2014-08-19T15:43:52Z AeroNotix: say you create a lisp image, and take care of all bindings to output streams?
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2014-08-19T15:44:32Z sellout: Xach: Missed you this weekend, had a pretty fun time with the four other Clozurites who made it, though.
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2014-08-19T15:46:26Z Xach: AeroNotix: I think this is a more transient thing, where the lisp image is started sometimes with the "be quiet" option and sometimes without.
2014-08-19T15:47:06Z Xach: sellout: I missed getting up there. Yesterday was the first day I felt well enough to do much of anything. A little too late, unfortunately.
2014-08-19T15:48:03Z AeroNotix: Xach: ok then
2014-08-19T15:48:16Z AeroNotix: Do more people attend Lisp conferences in the US or EU?
2014-08-19T15:49:12Z sellout: AeroNotix: Well, in the days of ITA …
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2014-08-19T15:49:58Z sellout: I think the EU has more of them, although the attendance of each is smaller. They may have more unique attendees in aggregate. But I am just making stuff up.
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2014-08-19T15:50:51Z AeroNotix: hehe
2014-08-19T15:53:00Z Xach: EU has more people
2014-08-19T15:53:21Z Xach: Attending the conferences, that is.
2014-08-19T15:53:52Z AeroNotix: interesting
2014-08-19T15:54:25Z sellout: Even ILC has a good proportion of Europeans.
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2014-08-19T15:54:45Z Xach: ECLM/ELS in spain had a decent number of americans
2014-08-19T15:54:55Z sellout: I wish I could have gone to that one :/
2014-08-19T15:55:04Z Xach: some were americans living/working europe, but several travelers like me
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2014-08-19T15:58:52Z rme: I really enjoyed the two ECLM events that I have attended.  The general vibe is "CL rocks, look at this cool thing I did," and I find that exciting and encouraging.
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2014-08-19T16:00:26Z Xach: same here
2014-08-19T16:00:59Z Xach: I get that feeling from the people at ILCs when hanging out in the hallways, but not always at the formal portions.
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2014-08-19T16:01:03Z sellout: I’ve been meaning to start using https://github.com/mtravers/heroku-buildpack-cl to get more of my non-library projects some public visibility.
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2014-08-19T16:12:36Z tokenrove: i was surprised there weren't more schemers at this ILC.  i know a lot of scheme people in Montreal.
2014-08-19T16:13:42Z Xach: there were some schemers in reno, but probably the same ones at ilc
2014-08-19T16:14:24Z tokenrove: i might write a blog entry about ILC that describes the talks in more detail if there's any interest.  i saw a few people were trying to find abstracts or similar for the talks.
2014-08-19T16:15:09Z rme: I thought there were quite a few in Montreal.  I was under the impression that there were several people there who didn't use CL at all.
2014-08-19T16:15:13Z wasamasa: tokenrove: sure
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2014-08-19T16:15:36Z wasamasa: tokenrove: I'd say that about anything when it comes to blogging except SEO spam of course
2014-08-19T16:15:46Z tokenrove: there were a decent few schemers there, but i've seen more at local MSLUG meetings
2014-08-19T16:16:12Z Xach: are MSLUG meetings $100-$300 to attend?
2014-08-19T16:16:16Z tokenrove: not to mention a few CL'ers i've worked with who live there, most of which who have jumped ship to clojure but still surprised me by not showing up.
2014-08-19T16:16:42Z tokenrove: xach: ah, of course.  i felt the conference was so cheap that i had forgotten about that aspect.
2014-08-19T16:17:05Z tokenrove: the J conference in Toronto was like $1200 for early-bird registration, by comparison
2014-08-19T16:17:10Z Xach: i think it's worth it, but it may deter someone with only casual interest
2014-08-19T16:17:23Z Xach: you could go out to a nice dinner instead
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2014-08-19T16:20:08Z Xach: so much shish taouk
2014-08-19T16:21:19Z tokenrove: well, it's like 30 shish taouk platters.  but why not both? ;-)
2014-08-19T16:22:04Z tokenrove: actually if i were organizing a conference, i would see about getting basha or boustan to cater the lunches and dinners.
2014-08-19T16:22:12Z Xach: I built a quicklisp build environment on a new debian 7 system. Good news is all the gtk-cffi systems build now! They required gtk3.
2014-08-19T16:22:50Z Xach: Bad news is I am having a hard time geting lisp-magick library needs satisfied. and tfeb's single-file projects are 404 and breaking a few things.
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2014-08-19T16:23:40Z AeroNotix: I was recently at EUC in sweden, I paid like 500kr for a shitty lunch. I was so mad.
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2014-08-19T16:24:43Z Xach: "Free" beer and food at ECLM/ELS!
2014-08-19T16:25:04Z Xach had many fineiken heinekens at the amsterdam meeting
2014-08-19T16:25:12Z AeroNotix: @ EUC? 3x300ml of beer which was 3.3%
2014-08-19T16:25:22Z Xach is unfamiliar with EUC
2014-08-19T16:25:24Z AeroNotix: Xach: Lisp in amsterdam is pretty much what I want out of life
2014-08-19T16:25:28Z AeroNotix: Xach: erlang user conference
2014-08-19T16:25:41Z AeroNotix: if I could get a gig writing lisp in Amsterdam, I would die a very, very happy man
2014-08-19T16:26:04Z Xach: hopefully at some future date, not right away
2014-08-19T16:26:18Z AeroNotix: Xach: haha, yes
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2014-08-19T16:26:21Z AeroNotix: :)
2014-08-19T16:26:22Z AeroNotix: took me a second to get that!
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2014-08-19T16:46:13Z devon: Fell ill and missed ILC2014, anyone here make it?
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2014-08-19T16:47:39Z sellout: devon: rme, tokenrove, beach (who has since left), and me at least.
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2014-08-19T17:03:53Z foo1: nick levine mentioned "Dave Pendler's amalgam of LISP 1.5 and APL\360" in his ilc2014 comments, does anybody have a link to what he's talking about?
2014-08-19T17:04:10Z tokenrove: foo1: it's called ALPS, and he got the author's name wrong; one sec
2014-08-19T17:04:53Z tokenrove: it's Dave Penkler, and as i understand there is no release.  he's agreed to send me a binary of it so i'm pretty excited about that.  i talked to him a fair bit about it.
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2014-08-19T17:06:13Z tokenrove: i am writing up a summary of the talks now so i don't forget.  if dave does get in touch with me (i gave him my email address, didn't get his), i will ask him if there's a web presence (i was previously unable to find one) and whether he's interested in redistributing it at all.
2014-08-19T17:06:24Z foo1: tokenrove: thanks for details! this is apropos my interests, i've spent the last few weeks implementing apl2 as a dsl on top of common lisp
2014-08-19T17:06:40Z foo1: so i'd like to see how smarter men do it
2014-08-19T17:06:42Z tokenrove: awesome.  i, too, have a pet lisp/apl hybrid so it was very exciting for me.
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2014-08-19T17:07:46Z tokenrove: i'm going to link to APROL in the blog post; does your apl2 dsl have a url?  if so, i could include it as well, if you wanted.
2014-08-19T17:07:53Z foo1: are there any more details in this paper? http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2635658 i remember looking at papers during the "free during ilc" period, and i think i only saw the abstracts for whatever reason
2014-08-19T17:08:02Z pnpuff: tokenrove: whereis the blog?
2014-08-19T17:08:17Z tokenrove: pnpuff: i will post the url when i finish the post.  i only just started writing it.
2014-08-19T17:09:38Z tokenrove: foo1: the paper is pretty interesting but doesn't go into a lot of detail.
2014-08-19T17:10:01Z foo1: gotcha
2014-08-19T17:11:11Z foo1: i haven't cleared code with my corporate owners, so no public releases yet
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2014-08-19T17:13:22Z foo1: i've been looking around lisp archives for some old apl in lisp implementation but haven't found anything yet, so this is pretty exciting
2014-08-19T17:13:30Z foo1: i'll keep an eye on your blog
2014-08-19T17:14:04Z tokenrove: i don't know about older ones, but in the last decade there was an interesting attempt to implement J in CL
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2014-08-19T17:15:19Z lagging_troll: anyone in the mood to help a new common lisper figure out why my code doesn't do what i expect? https://gist.github.com/lagging-troll/364aa16a5bd90a4d660d
2014-08-19T17:16:15Z rme: Nick Levine's post says that he "didn't see anyone from the CL vendors" and "hardly anyone from any of the other CL implementations."  I'm trying to decide if I should be offended that I've been relegated to the "hardly anyone" category.
2014-08-19T17:16:54Z dlowe: lagging_troll: try putting a newline at the end of that 123
2014-08-19T17:17:16Z PuercoPop: sellout: I think this fork  heroku buildpack is more up to date: https://github.com/jsmpereira/heroku-buildpack-cl
2014-08-19T17:17:17Z dlowe: rme: maybe you were keeping it from being "no one"
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2014-08-19T17:17:31Z sellout: rme: Yeah, in my conversation with Nick, you were the _only_ one.
2014-08-19T17:17:50Z sellout: Other people from Clozure, of course, but no implementers.
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2014-08-19T17:17:53Z oleo: is - a synonym for a stream in cl ?
2014-08-19T17:18:15Z dlowe: lagging_troll: oh, wait. have you tried just not putting a "-" in there
2014-08-19T17:18:29Z oleo: heh
2014-08-19T17:18:35Z dlowe: well "-" should work anyway
2014-08-19T17:18:38Z sellout: PuercoPop: Ah, thanks.
2014-08-19T17:18:38Z foo1: dlowe: that should still work though
2014-08-19T17:19:25Z dlowe: lagging_troll: the problem is probably that there's no newline and you've not closed stdin to let grep know the end of input
2014-08-19T17:20:20Z lagging_troll: dlowe: i did try without the -
2014-08-19T17:20:27Z lagging_troll: dlowe: let me try with a newline..
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2014-08-19T17:21:59Z lagging_troll: dlowe: hmm, i concatenated (code-char 10) to the end of "123", same result though
2014-08-19T17:22:30Z rme: Hm.  Now that I think about it, I think that's true: I didn't meet any other CL implementers there.  That does seem a bit unusual.
2014-08-19T17:22:31Z foo1: tokenrove: do you have a link to that one? i'm actually, embarrassing to say, more interested in "notation as tool" aspect of it, then specifically array substance, so i spent very little time with j
2014-08-19T17:22:50Z dlowe: lagging_troll: would probably be better to close the stream once you're done sending the contents
2014-08-19T17:23:33Z lagging_troll: dlowe: let me see what that does.. i'd not closed it, since I was hoping for interative reads and writes
2014-08-19T17:23:51Z rme: My sensitive feelings are spared.
2014-08-19T17:23:52Z dlowe: lagging_troll: in that case, you won't be passing a string to it
2014-08-19T17:24:18Z dlowe: lagging_troll: but then I don't think grep is going to be a good test case for interactive use
2014-08-19T17:25:53Z tokenrove: hey, beach is technically a CL implementer, too
2014-08-19T17:26:10Z tokenrove: rme: i was surprised, as i had really hoped to meet people involved in all the major compilers.
2014-08-19T17:26:26Z lagging_troll: dlowe: you're totally correct - closing the input stream works
2014-08-19T17:26:27Z foo1: lagging_troll: try maybe passing --line-buffered to grep. in non-interactive context grep stdout is block buffered (at least bsd grep) so there might just not be enough output
2014-08-19T17:26:43Z tokenrove: i just assumed that, for example, franz would send somebody.  but then again, i was expecting a much more technical conference.
2014-08-19T17:27:11Z lagging_troll: foo1: hey, awesome! that works too
2014-08-19T17:27:23Z foo1: lagging_troll: i think the right way to do this sort of "interactive" approach is to allocate a tty for each process you're creating (i don't know the details though)
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2014-08-19T17:28:38Z tokenrove: foo1: would it be too much to ask if i were to request that you ask me again a bit later?
2014-08-19T17:28:57Z lagging_troll: foo1: yea you are probably right.. but there are pty limits, right?  like what if I wanted my app to interact with a ton of different running shell  procs (hypothetically)
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2014-08-19T17:30:03Z lagging_troll: dlowe: you're right, grep wasn't a great test.  made my experiment more complicated than it needed to be
2014-08-19T17:30:11Z foo1: tokenrove: no worries, i rssed your blog, so i'll follow up sometime in the future. i'm basically implementing with no forethought, so by the time i do get my hands on some thought out array language thought i'll be in a better place to learn from it
2014-08-19T17:32:09Z tokenrove: foo1: i am planning to release something related to this soon-ish (i had hoped to talk about it at ILC but didn't get the time to put it together) and i will be blogging about related work, as well as a lot of literature related to array-languages that i've dug up in the process.
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2014-08-19T17:32:37Z foo1: cool!
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2014-08-19T17:55:56Z oGMo: quickutil seems to be missing docs on how to make utilities
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2014-08-19T18:00:58Z kristof: That's troubling.
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2014-08-19T19:02:31Z AeroNotix: https://plus.google.com/u/0/115388612654362129189/about the g+ group is a bit.. shit
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2014-08-19T19:07:13Z wasamasa: "There are no photos of Lisp."
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2014-08-19T19:07:32Z wasamasa: now I see why google+ enforced real names for a while
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2014-08-19T20:28:46Z tokenrove: does anyone remember, or have written down, the order of the lightning talks at ILC?  in particular, which day did the cl-foundation announcement happen?
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2014-08-19T20:29:49Z sellout: tokenrove: Didier should know – he at least made slides with the lists of lightning talks.
2014-08-19T20:30:18Z sellout: @didierverna on Twitter
2014-08-19T20:30:24Z tokenrove: i figured as much, but he doesn't irc, right?
2014-08-19T20:30:33Z tokenrove: ah, that'll do
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2014-08-19T20:31:57Z Tuxedo: I wasn't there for Sunday's lightning talks, but I was for Saturday's.  I think the cl-foundation talk must've been on Sunday.
2014-08-19T20:32:11Z p_l: cl-foundation?
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2014-08-19T20:33:07Z tokenrove: http://cl-foundation.org/
2014-08-19T20:33:14Z tokenrove: Tuxedo: thanks, i think you're right.
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2014-08-19T20:57:34Z dlowe: H4ns: what's an "extended CLF position"?
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2014-08-19T21:20:28Z H4ns: dlowe: hu?
2014-08-19T21:21:47Z H4ns: dlowe: i did not know that i am in such a thing.
2014-08-19T21:22:02Z H4ns: dlowe: i'll think about filing an official complaint.  tomorrow :)
2014-08-19T21:22:18Z H4ns: omg.  i need to.
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2014-08-19T21:23:04Z Xach: but the fame + money...!
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2014-08-19T21:42:04Z Clarice: In the spec concerning catch: "4. The tag established by catch is disestablished just before the results are returned."
2014-08-19T21:42:08Z Clarice: What does "disestablished" mean?
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2014-08-19T21:48:57Z jasom_: Clarice: made no longer established
2014-08-19T21:50:25Z Bike: you can't throw to it.
2014-08-19T21:50:33Z Bike: there are some examples in one of the committee issues linked, i think
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2014-08-19T21:53:46Z jasom_: There is an example in throw as well
2014-08-19T21:53:51Z jasom_: with unwind-protect
2014-08-19T21:54:20Z Clarice: So it's only usable once? You'd have to re-establish it.
2014-08-19T21:55:06Z jasom_: Clarice: Well, this is well defined to be 2 for example: (catch 'foo (throw 'foo (throw 'foo 2)))
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2014-08-19T21:56:04Z jasom_: Since the result-form is evaluated before the throw tag is exited.  I think all it's saying is that once you leave the dynamic extent of the catch, you can no longer throw to it.
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2014-08-19T23:49:54Z Shaftoe___: I think I must be doing something very stupid but I can't figure it out.
2014-08-19T23:50:50Z Shaftoe___: I just built and installed the latest rep of sbcl (1.2.2) on osx. I clone and put cl-autowrap in my site-systems dir
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2014-08-19T23:51:29Z Shaftoe___: (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op 'cl-autowrap)
2014-08-19T23:51:47Z Shaftoe___: and yet, sbcl says it can't find the package
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2014-08-19T23:52:37Z |3b|: package or system?
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2014-08-19T23:52:50Z |3b|: and are you sure the package and system names are the same if that is what you are trying?
2014-08-19T23:53:03Z Shaftoe___: http://paste.lisp.org/+32OJ
2014-08-19T23:53:08Z |3b|: also, you can use (asdf:load-system 'cl-autowrap) on recent asdf
2014-08-19T23:53:10Z PuercoPop: Shaftoe___: the package is autowrap
2014-08-19T23:53:14Z PuercoPop: without the cl
2014-08-19T23:53:40Z Shaftoe___: yup. that solves that. =)
2014-08-19T23:53:47Z Shaftoe___: like I said. I was doing something very stupid.
2014-08-19T23:54:40Z Shaftoe___: |3b|: is load-system different or just more shorthand?
2014-08-19T23:56:03Z |3b|: just shorthand
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2014-08-19T23:56:17Z |3b|: there is also load-systems to load more than one at a time
2014-08-19T23:56:38Z Shaftoe___: nice. thanks for the tip
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2014-08-20T00:00:13Z stacksmith: A quick CLOS question.  There is a class A in a library.  I create (defclass A1 (A) ..myslots..).  Then I have (defmethod initialize-instance :after (foo A1) &key ..my-init-code).  my-init-code invokes a generic function specializing on A with foo, (an A1) -- and fails, saying 'There is no applicable method for generic function... when called with arguments (#= 3.5... ../configure: line 16183: llvm-config: command not found"
2014-08-20T03:22:38Z Shaftoe___: I'm on osx, with llvm-gcc installed (3.3)
2014-08-20T03:22:46Z Clarice: which llvm-config
2014-08-20T03:22:48Z Shaftoe___: but regardless, the latest release of llvm is 3.4
2014-08-20T03:23:24Z Clarice: "3.5 is scheduled for release in August 2014"
2014-08-20T03:23:25Z Shaftoe___: no llvm-config
2014-08-20T03:23:44Z Shaftoe___: indeed it is. So the configure script for c2ffi was a bit hasty
2014-08-20T03:24:48Z Shaftoe___: regardless, any clues on what configure flags I could use to solve this?
2014-08-20T03:24:55Z Clarice: Perhaps you need to use a different branch of c2ffi then
2014-08-20T03:25:23Z Clarice: https://github.com/rpav/c2ffi/tree/llvm-3.4
2014-08-20T03:25:36Z Shaftoe___: ah. good point.
2014-08-20T03:25:44Z Clarice: Did you pull that from "master"?
2014-08-20T03:27:07Z Shaftoe___: yes I did. I'm trying the alternative branch now. Hadn't noticed them
2014-08-20T03:27:50Z Clarice: Righty-oh then. Carry on, sailor.
2014-08-20T03:28:37Z Shaftoe___: Thank you Clarice.
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2014-08-20T03:56:53Z PuercoPop: How do I make sure a method is not compiled(?) as a fast method, C-u C-c C-c on the slime debugger doesn't do the trick
2014-08-20T03:57:29Z Xach: In SBCL, C-u prefix means "ensure debug 3"
2014-08-20T03:57:58Z Xach: I don't know how much it applies to other backends. What are you trying to do?
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2014-08-20T03:58:50Z PuercoPop: just get more info on the call sequence(like locals on the debugger)
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2014-08-20T03:59:47Z Xach: For me, C-u prefix before C-c C-c or C-c C-k does the trick. I think there are some circumstances where even debug 3 won't show everything, but I'm not sure.
2014-08-20T03:59:56Z PuercoPop: maybe I have to do C-u C-c the defgeneric or declare not-inline?
2014-08-20T04:00:10Z Xach: It shows locals and jumps straight to the form that caused the trouble.
2014-08-20T04:00:15Z Xach: (with "v")
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2014-08-20T04:28:13Z loke: Has anyone built a Hunchentoot taskmanager that allows multiple long-running listeners (for HTML5 EvenSource) using something like select() to reduce the number of threads when you have lots of listeners?
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2014-08-20T06:54:08Z akkad: is there a describe-function equivalent in slime?
2014-08-20T06:55:33Z |3b|: C-c C-d C-f runs slime-describe-function which sounds similar
2014-08-20T06:55:35Z phadthai: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Documentation.html
2014-08-20T06:56:18Z akkad: slime-describe-function
2014-08-20T06:56:31Z akkad: thanks.
2014-08-20T06:56:50Z akkad: having to convert some stuff over to cl from elisp
2014-08-20T06:57:53Z |3b|: slime-describe-function is probably an elisp function
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2014-08-20T07:24:50Z akkad hunts for a ql project to process json rest endpoints as a client
2014-08-20T07:25:31Z akkad: drakma?
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2014-08-20T07:28:03Z akkad: this is much nicer and much closer to elisp than I expected. rather than scheme
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2014-08-20T07:44:02Z |3b|: drakma is the usual HTTP client, don't think it does anything JSON or REST specific though
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2014-08-20T07:45:02Z easye: |3b|: Right, but it gives easy access to the request/response bodies which is what one needs to interact with REST APIs.
2014-08-20T07:45:19Z |3b|: yeah
2014-08-20T07:48:34Z akkad: ironclad has full hmac support. :P
2014-08-20T07:49:19Z dim: drakma + yason have been a good duet for me for json on the client side
2014-08-20T07:50:40Z akkad: dim thanks.
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2014-08-20T08:17:11Z chitofan: hi all, how do i associate a keyboard input with triggering an event in lisp?
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2014-08-20T08:23:17Z prxq_: chitofan: this depends on the ide or the gui lib you are using. Lisp has by itself no facility for doing that.
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2014-08-20T08:26:56Z dim: well clisp has keyboard and screen facilities if you want to do curses like processing
2014-08-20T08:28:38Z chitofan: ok, i figured out that the code im looking at uses cipa
2014-08-20T08:28:42Z chitofan: but i dont want to do that
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2014-08-20T08:44:33Z chitofan: sorry if this is a stupid question, but is it possible to execute this code with an online compiler?
2014-08-20T08:44:34Z chitofan: http://landoflisp.com/robots.lisp
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2014-08-20T08:47:02Z |3b|: not sure what you mean
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2014-08-20T08:48:15Z chitofan: http://www.compileonline.com/execute_lisp_online.php
2014-08-20T08:48:16Z chitofan: when i copypaste the code and compile it
2014-08-20T08:48:19Z chitofan: nothing happens
2014-08-20T08:48:34Z dim: well it should happen that the code has been compiled
2014-08-20T08:48:53Z |3b|: that code just defines a function, so you need to call it for something to happen
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2014-08-20T08:49:14Z |3b|: it also wants to read input, so will probably be hard to use
2014-08-20T08:50:42Z dim: is it ok to use 'eq to compare characters?
2014-08-20T08:51:29Z Adlai: not portable, use eql
2014-08-20T08:51:51Z Adlai: (characters might not be immediate data on all platforms)
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2014-08-20T08:52:22Z dim: yeah, thanks
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2014-08-20T08:52:59Z Adlai: clhs char=
2014-08-20T08:52:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_chareq.htm
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2014-08-20T08:53:08Z Adlai: don't use eql, use char= :)
2014-08-20T08:54:04Z |3b| wouldn't even call using eq on characters "not portable", it might seem like it is working on a specific platform then randomly break when you aren't expecting it
2014-08-20T08:55:03Z Adlai: not uniformly portable across the time-platform continuum?
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2014-08-20T09:32:50Z dim: with make-hash-table you can't do :test #'char= IIRC
2014-08-20T09:33:06Z AeroNotix: there's a set of functions which are allowed
2014-08-20T09:33:20Z AeroNotix: functions eq, eql, equal, or equalp. The default is eql.
2014-08-20T09:33:28Z Adlai: the default is good for characters
2014-08-20T09:33:34Z AeroNotix: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_mk_has.htm
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2014-08-20T09:38:48Z akkad: is there any pp equivalent in CL like in elisp?
2014-08-20T09:39:00Z akkad: pretty print object for inspection
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2014-08-20T09:40:54Z wasamasa: wait, what does elisp have?
2014-08-20T09:41:49Z ggole: elisp has pp
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2014-08-20T09:42:01Z wasamasa: I'm shocked
2014-08-20T09:42:20Z ggole: I would use slime's C-c I, I guess
2014-08-20T09:42:32Z akkad: ok thanks
2014-08-20T09:44:23Z ggole: Oh, and
2014-08-20T09:44:28Z ggole: clhs *print-pretty*
2014-08-20T09:44:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_pre.htm
2014-08-20T09:44:48Z akkad: https://gist.github.com/281cee1c3346827bf89d trying to inspect the results of this function
2014-08-20T09:45:26Z akkad nows better to ask if there is a pdf available of the spec.
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2014-08-20T09:46:20Z akkad: guess let* should just be let
2014-08-20T09:47:00Z akkad: use to doing a (mapcar #'message results) in elisp.
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2014-08-20T09:48:24Z wasamasa: akkad: someone did a minispec
2014-08-20T09:48:36Z wasamasa: akkad: http://minispec.org/
2014-08-20T09:49:10Z akkad: wasamasa: excellent, thank you.
2014-08-20T09:49:22Z wasamasa: though, it's not a pdf cheatsheet
2014-08-20T09:49:29Z wasamasa: just a list of other commonly used resources
2014-08-20T09:52:03Z edgar-rft: http://quimby.gnus.org/circus/cl/dpANS3/ has a set of dvi files where you can make your own pdf version of the CL specification. dpANS3 is the last version before the official ANSI print version
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2014-08-20T10:01:46Z wasamasa: ooh
2014-08-20T10:02:02Z wasamasa: wouldn't tex work, too?
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2014-08-20T10:06:34Z wasamasa: also, what would stop one from creating his own pdf from the lispworks' hyperspec html version?
2014-08-20T10:06:58Z H4ns: wasamasa: the license forbids that.
2014-08-20T10:07:16Z H4ns: wasamasa: but that should not stop you.  nobody will sue you.
2014-08-20T10:09:11Z wasamasa: H4ns: so wait, the reason why we're all using their hyperspec is because nobody else created their own version of it?
2014-08-20T10:09:35Z H4ns: wasamasa: yes.  because the license forbids creating derivatives.
2014-08-20T10:09:53Z wasamasa: no, I rather mean, there are no other documents like the hyperspec around?
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2014-08-20T10:10:16Z H4ns: wasamasa: there have been brave people who did not fear the evil lawyers and created their own beautiful versions, but redistribution is kind of like you know you never know
2014-08-20T10:10:53Z wasamasa: H4ns: is the situation similiar for C?
2014-08-20T10:11:01Z H4ns: wasamasa: hu?
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2014-08-20T10:12:46Z wasamasa: H4ns: I've read about a few of the standards only being available for a fee
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2014-08-20T10:13:43Z H4ns: wasamasa: c, contrasted to common lisp, is a language that is under active development and wide use.  it is different in that there is some commercial interest in it, whereas common lisp is basically a piece of history.
2014-08-20T10:14:13Z H4ns: wasamasa: but in any case, there is the license and it forbids creating derivative works of the clhs.
2014-08-20T10:14:41Z wasamasa: H4ns: and we don't have any other resources available we could derive our own versions from, right?
2014-08-20T10:15:04Z H4ns: wasamasa: the standard is the standard.  there is only one.
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2014-08-20T10:21:04Z Zhivago: The C standard _drafts_ are freely available.
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2014-08-20T10:21:18Z Zhivago: The standard itself is must be purchased.
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2014-08-20T10:23:11Z Zhivago: But note that the hyperspec is not a standard.
2014-08-20T10:23:49Z H4ns: Zhivago: would it be accurate enough to say that the hyperspec is a derivative of the standard?
2014-08-20T10:24:28Z Zhivago: Perhaps, although I do not know if that is true in a legal sense.
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2014-08-20T10:27:05Z wasamasa: Zhivago: I see then
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2014-08-20T10:27:15Z wasamasa: Zhivago: that is what I meant when comparing them
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2014-08-20T10:39:17Z wasamasa: H4ns: I guess I'll look through the drafts and write a Makefile to turn them into a pdf
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2014-08-20T11:58:16Z Xach: My non-lawyer opinion is that you can make what you like from dpans3 but clhs is off-limits.
2014-08-20T11:58:43Z Xach: I formed that opinion after talking to Kent Pitman at length about the idea of making a new physical book from dpans3.
2014-08-20T12:00:17Z Xach: (we talked only of dpans3. i think the license of clhs is clear.)
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2014-08-20T12:01:05Z jdz: i think http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/cl-untold-story.html is relevant here
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2014-08-20T12:05:28Z Xach: yes.
2014-08-20T12:06:29Z Xach: jdz: thanks.
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2014-08-20T12:09:04Z jdz: Xach: my pleasure!
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2014-08-20T12:09:24Z jdz: that's a lovely article everyone should read, anyway
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2014-08-20T12:13:08Z H4ns: indeed.
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2014-08-20T12:18:18Z Xach: Kent is of course also not a lawyer.
2014-08-20T12:18:40Z Xach: I found his perspective persuasive though.
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2014-08-20T12:19:35Z p_l: I believe hyperspec is derivative of either the standard document, or something between dpans3 and standard, licensed by LW then modified
2014-08-20T12:20:10Z p_l: but just as well, I am not a lawyer :)
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2014-08-20T12:22:27Z Xach: http://www.wellsortedversion.com/ renewed my interest in the topic
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2014-08-20T13:05:56Z chitofan: http://pastebin.com/51hR3ia5
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2014-08-20T13:06:13Z chitofan: the compiler says ;Compiler warnings : ;   In GAME-READ: Unused lexical variable COMMAND ;   In GAME-READ: Undeclared free variable COMMAND
2014-08-20T13:06:44Z AeroNotix: chitofan: you closed the let before the body of the case
2014-08-20T13:06:44Z chitofan: i don't understand what i'm doing wrong, i'm extrapolating from a code example i saw in a book
2014-08-20T13:07:02Z Zhivago: chitofan: What is the body of the let?
2014-08-20T13:07:06Z H4ns: chitofan: the indentation actually makes your error apparent.
2014-08-20T13:07:41Z H4ns: chitofan: although it does not seem as if you're using your editor for automatic indentation, which is what you should do.
2014-08-20T13:07:54Z chitofan: oh sorry :(
2014-08-20T13:08:11Z chitofan: it does, but i wasnt paying attention
2014-08-20T13:08:16Z chitofan: was looking up functions and stuff
2014-08-20T13:08:21Z chitofan: sorry, such a silly mistake
2014-08-20T13:08:30Z chitofan: i didn't know let worked properly
2014-08-20T13:08:37Z chitofan: how it worked properly*
2014-08-20T13:08:38Z AeroNotix: let does, indeed, work properly.
2014-08-20T13:08:42Z AeroNotix: oh :)
2014-08-20T13:09:25Z H4ns: chitofan: paying attention is always advised when programming.  also, reading the error messages and trying to understand what they mean.
2014-08-20T13:11:07Z Xach: I remember when I first learned about multiple-value-bind. I didn't realize it was a scoping form. I thought it was like multiple-value-setq. It took me quite a while to figure out why my later uses of the variables were unbound.
2014-08-20T13:11:13Z chitofan: i thought you just declared the variables in let and proceeded happily with the body :( being new to lisp
2014-08-20T13:11:34Z AeroNotix: Xach: thanks for the read above (cl-untold-story). Very interesting :)
2014-08-20T13:11:38Z Xach: chitofan: the variables at the top of LET are only bound until the end of the let form.
2014-08-20T13:11:40Z AeroNotix: I love things like this
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2014-08-20T13:26:55Z Xach: one of the fun aspects of meetings is hearing from old timey lisp hackers
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2014-08-20T13:27:09Z Xach: that is also one of the unfun aspects if they are too stuck in the late 70s
2014-08-20T13:27:18Z AeroNotix: truth, I see that lot
2014-08-20T13:27:21Z Xach: or are in their own late 70s
2014-08-20T13:27:28Z AeroNotix: not through direct interactions, but online
2014-08-20T13:27:36Z p_l: Xach: the latter depends on how well preserved late 70s ;)
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2014-08-20T13:28:27Z Xach: right. it's more of an "and" than an "or"
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2014-08-20T13:33:23Z pnpuff: History is life's teacher ;-)
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2014-08-20T13:45:22Z ThePhoeron: Xach: I pushed another bug-fix to let-over-lambda, will it make it into the august quicklisp release?
2014-08-20T13:45:56Z Xach: ThePhoeron: yes, thanks
2014-08-20T13:46:09Z ThePhoeron: awesome
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2014-08-20T14:12:38Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-08-20T14:13:12Z ThePhoeron: beach: morning!
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2014-08-20T14:32:22Z beach: tokenrove: Welcome back to #lisp!
2014-08-20T14:34:53Z oleo: hello beach :)
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2014-08-20T14:37:54Z chitofan: http://pastebin.com/bcf8hw5F
2014-08-20T14:37:55Z chitofan: CL-USER> (game-read) u U U
2014-08-20T14:38:10Z chitofan: how do i get the case loop to read the value of command?
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2014-08-20T14:40:07Z oGMo: chitofan: you're not typing keywords, at the very least
2014-08-20T14:40:46Z chitofan: i typed u
2014-08-20T14:40:50Z chitofan: and it returned me U
2014-08-20T14:40:54Z chitofan: instead of '(move-up)
2014-08-20T14:40:56Z oGMo: which is not :u
2014-08-20T14:41:04Z chitofan: omg
2014-08-20T14:41:07Z chitofan: i read someone's else code
2014-08-20T14:41:11Z chitofan: and i thought it was the syntax
2014-08-20T14:41:25Z oGMo: :u is a symbol, but in the keyword package
2014-08-20T14:41:34Z beach: chitofan: When you want someone else to read your code, you really should indent it properly.
2014-08-20T14:41:54Z beach: chitofan: Otherwise, you impose on your reader to count parentheses.
2014-08-20T14:42:00Z beach: chitofan: And that is not polite.
2014-08-20T14:42:13Z oGMo: that too, it looks like the first let is unrelated to the case, now that you mention it
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2014-08-20T14:42:30Z chitofan: why
2014-08-20T14:42:32Z chitofan: is it redundant?
2014-08-20T14:42:50Z beach: Why should you be polite?
2014-08-20T14:42:56Z chitofan: btw im reading others' code..
2014-08-20T14:43:04Z chitofan: i'm not sure what you're talking about beach
2014-08-20T14:43:17Z H4ns: chitofan: it is your code that is not properly indented.
2014-08-20T14:43:17Z chitofan: i mean, why is my "let" unrelated?
2014-08-20T14:43:19Z beach: chitofan: People who read CL code understand it by looking at the indentation.
2014-08-20T14:43:37Z chitofan: it looks indented to me in pastebin
2014-08-20T14:43:44Z H4ns: chitofan: wrongly indented.
2014-08-20T14:43:54Z Zhivago: chitofan: Do you know python?
2014-08-20T14:43:57Z beach: chitofan: It is not indented according to the agreed-upon rules of indentation.
2014-08-20T14:44:02Z chitofan: emacs did the indentation for me..
2014-08-20T14:44:11Z H4ns: chitofan: then indent every line again now.
2014-08-20T14:44:12Z beach: chitofan: I seriously doubt that.
2014-08-20T14:44:20Z H4ns: chitofan: also use paste.lisp.org for your next paste.
2014-08-20T14:44:25Z Zhivago: Perhaps emacs is in the wrong mode. :)
2014-08-20T14:44:39Z dim: C-x h TAB will re-indent the whole buffer
2014-08-20T14:47:18Z chitofan: yea, the indentation was off.. sorry
2014-08-20T14:47:22Z chitofan: thanks for the help everybody
2014-08-20T14:47:52Z H4ns: chitofan: now, if you type :b instead of b, it might be working somewhat better.
2014-08-20T14:48:45Z chitofan: :b where
2014-08-20T14:49:03Z H4ns: chitofan: where your functions calls read-line
2014-08-20T14:50:39Z chitofan: sorry.. i don't see anywhere b is
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2014-08-20T14:51:39Z H4ns: chitofan: try (read-from-string "b") and (read-from-string ":b") in your repl and try to understand what the returned values mean.
2014-08-20T14:51:44Z H4ns: chitofan: also, read a book.
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2014-08-20T14:52:29Z pjb: chitofan: in emacs, use M-q to have emacs indent code correctly. Also put (setq indent-tabs-mode nil) in your ~/.emacs
2014-08-20T14:53:00Z pjb: chitofan: and you should use paredit, it will indent your lisp code automatically while you type it.  http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/ParEdit
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2014-08-20T14:55:07Z chitofan: the book im referring to is land of lisp.. im trying to extrapolate from the examples :3
2014-08-20T14:55:17Z chitofan: pjb, M-q messed up my indentation instead :(
2014-08-20T14:55:18Z dim: paredit is strange to get used to, and soon a must have
2014-08-20T14:55:24Z beach: pjb: I must have misunderstood something you said, because I expected to see you at ILC.
2014-08-20T14:55:48Z pjb: chitofan: sorry, without paredit, you have to type C-x h C-M-\
2014-08-20T14:56:20Z pjb: beach: sorry, you misunderstood.   There was interest, but lack of time and resources.
2014-08-20T14:56:37Z beach: pjb: I see.  Your loss! :)
2014-08-20T14:56:38Z pjb: I even missed the tweet about getting the proceedings :-(
2014-08-20T14:56:52Z beach: Darn!
2014-08-20T14:57:09Z chitofan: C-M-\ is ctrl m \ ?
2014-08-20T14:57:19Z pjb: I already told you to read the tutorial!
2014-08-20T14:57:22Z pjb: It takes half an hour!
2014-08-20T14:57:23Z pjb: C-h t
2014-08-20T14:57:32Z pjb: control-h t
2014-08-20T14:57:38Z chitofan: c-h t selects all
2014-08-20T14:57:42Z beach: chitofan: Control+Meta and then \.
2014-08-20T14:57:44Z chitofan: then c-m-\ does something funny
2014-08-20T14:58:12Z dim: C-M-\ runs the command indent-region
2014-08-20T14:58:26Z pjb: C-x h is bound to mark-whole-buffer, not C-h t.  C-h t is bound to emacs-tutorial.
2014-08-20T14:58:27Z dim: chitofan: have you done the Emacs tutorial yet?
2014-08-20T14:59:34Z tokenrove: beach: thank you!  and thanks for a great talk at ILC
2014-08-20T15:01:46Z chitofan: c-m-\ does some funny indentation to my code
2014-08-20T15:01:55Z chitofan: i think i'll work on it when i have time tomorrow
2014-08-20T15:01:59Z chitofan: thanks guys
2014-08-20T15:02:10Z pjb: chitofan: it's not funny, it's the standard indentation for Common Lisp :-)
2014-08-20T15:02:24Z pjb: And it's written C-M-\, not c-m-\
2014-08-20T15:02:32Z chitofan: nono, it shifts all the lines by the same amount of length
2014-08-20T15:02:46Z pjb: Perhaps your file is not in the lisp-mode?
2014-08-20T15:02:51Z pjb: Is it named something.lisp ?
2014-08-20T15:03:02Z H4ns: chitofan: is your buffer in lisp mode?  does it show (Lisp) in the mode line?
2014-08-20T15:03:06Z pjb: Is there "(Lisp " in the mode line?
2014-08-20T15:03:21Z beach: tokenrove: Glad you liked it.  I'll try to produce some more! :)
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2014-08-20T15:04:05Z Adlai: when is the next lisp conference?
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2014-08-20T15:04:39Z beach: Adlai: London 2015 I think.  ELS.  Might be held jointly with ILC.
2014-08-20T15:04:59Z Adlai: 2015, excellent. maybe i'll have something to present by then!
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2014-08-20T15:05:02Z beach: Adlai: But you should check that information.  It is only rumors I heard.
2014-08-20T15:05:17Z Adlai: rumors are better than uninformed guesses
2014-08-20T15:05:18Z beach: Adlai: Remind me what you are working on?
2014-08-20T15:05:34Z Adlai: no reminder needed, i don't discuss it much
2014-08-20T15:05:40Z Adlai: i'm building a market maker
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2014-08-20T15:05:54Z beach doesn't even know what a market maker is :(
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2014-08-20T15:06:47Z chitofan: pjb i got it working, and i wrote down the commands for doing so individually
2014-08-20T15:06:53Z chitofan: so you wont see my noob questions ever again
2014-08-20T15:06:56Z chitofan: lol
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2014-08-20T15:07:12Z Adlai: http://www.sec.gov/answers/mktmaker.htm although that doesn't explain much of anything
2014-08-20T15:07:28Z Adlai has a day job too, this is for fun
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2014-08-20T15:09:08Z beach: Got it.
2014-08-20T15:09:22Z Adlai: tl;dr: automated trading. computational finance. https://i.imgur.com/uH8QQ.gif
2014-08-20T15:09:23Z tokenrove: for those who didn't make it to ILC and are wondering what they missed, i've written up a very brief summary at http://www.cipht.net/2014/08/19/ilc2014.html
2014-08-20T15:09:46Z tokenrove: i apologize in advance for any distortions, misrememberances, or misrepresentations.
2014-08-20T15:10:59Z Adlai: tokenrove: interesting that you mention attendance demographics. thank you for paying attention to that.
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2014-08-20T15:13:29Z tokenrove: adlai: you're welcome.  i think awareness is the first step towards improving diversity in our industry.
2014-08-20T15:14:14Z beach: tokenrove: Thanks for taking the time to summarize.  I am sure many people will find it valuable.
2014-08-20T15:14:21Z Adlai is!
2014-08-20T15:14:36Z rme: tokenrove: Nice write-up.
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2014-08-20T15:20:33Z ggole: Andy Wingo recently made similar observations about demographics at a GNU conference
2014-08-20T15:20:40Z ggole: It's something people pay attention to lately
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2014-08-20T15:21:57Z Adlai: i'm guessing the lisp community is less diverse than the average tech community because one needs to deal with tech for a while to even hear of lisp, these days
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2014-08-20T15:25:48Z Krystof: my guess would be that those who discover lisp have the privilege of leisure time that they can spend on exploration of stuff that doesn't have to meet a basic, immediate need
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2014-08-20T15:32:16Z pjb: Eric Normand can't count up to three.
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2014-08-20T15:35:45Z basichash: Why is lisp good for AI?
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2014-08-20T15:36:08Z dlowe: basichash: you should try trolling one language channel at a time
2014-08-20T15:36:34Z basichash: dlowe: how is that trolling?
2014-08-20T15:36:43Z dlowe: basichash: intent.
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2014-08-20T15:37:19Z basichash: dlowe: lol how the fuck do you know what my intent is when I ask a question?
2014-08-20T15:37:36Z dlowe: basichash: pattern matching against known samples
2014-08-20T15:37:45Z sellout: tokenrove: Thanks for the very gracious summary :)
2014-08-20T15:37:47Z dlowe: same way as we know anything
2014-08-20T15:37:52Z pjb: basichash: lisp has been invented to do AI.  So yes, it's good for AI.
2014-08-20T15:38:00Z pjb: basichash: how does that help you?
2014-08-20T15:38:12Z H4ns: basichash: lisp is not "good for ai".  it is a general purpose language that happened to be popular among ai researchers in the last century.  nowadays, it is just as good as many other languages, and it is lacking in terms of genuine ai library support.
2014-08-20T15:38:25Z H4ns: basichash: please ask more specific questions.
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2014-08-20T15:38:34Z dlowe: he was trying to start an argument on #go-nuts about the go language. It's not worth wasting time over.
2014-08-20T15:38:53Z H4ns: dlowe: "worth".  well :)
2014-08-20T15:39:10Z pjb: H4ns: ∀τ∀x goodFor(x,τ) ⇒ ∀x goodFor(x,AI)
2014-08-20T15:39:15Z H4ns: dlowe: i see it more as an opportunity to waste time while i wait for my program run to finish
2014-08-20T15:39:24Z dlowe: H4ns: well, that's IRC isn't it :D
2014-08-20T15:39:38Z H4ns: dlowe: precisely!
2014-08-20T15:39:51Z dlowe: H4ns: so what's an "extended CLF position"?
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2014-08-20T15:40:10Z H4ns: dlowe: i still don't know, but i have not been asked whether i'd like to assume one.
2014-08-20T15:40:34Z basichash: dlowe: surely there are more productive ways of spending your time other than policing channels
2014-08-20T15:40:46Z H4ns: basichash: go away.
2014-08-20T15:40:50Z dlowe: H4ns: you're on here as "common-lisp.net Mailing List Technical Advisor" http://cl-foundation.org/board.html
2014-08-20T15:41:16Z H4ns: dlowe: i know.  thank you for telling me.  i was shocked, in fact, to see my name, with that title and under that umbrella.
2014-08-20T15:43:04Z basichash: H4ns: i'm not going anywhere, i'm here to learn
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2014-08-20T15:54:12Z akkad: what is the right way to print this? (format nil "curl -H \"X-LighthouseToken: %s\" %s" *lighthouse-token* *lighthouse-url*))
2014-08-20T15:54:21Z akkad: (format "foo %s" bar) in elisp does wonders
2014-08-20T15:54:46Z akkad: oh right... not elips. 
2014-08-20T15:55:09Z dim: ~a maybe
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2014-08-20T15:55:50Z akkad: https://gist.github.com/3c5ae9a9c7c0c3d97f49
2014-08-20T15:56:18Z akkad: drakma makes the request. just not able to capture the yason parsed output.
2014-08-20T15:56:43Z H4ns: "just not able", can you qualify that?
2014-08-20T15:56:52Z akkad: enosleep :P
2014-08-20T15:57:22Z H4ns: so?
2014-08-20T15:57:26Z akkad: unable to figure out how to get it to print in slime, or be captured in say (defvar foo (lighthouse-get))
2014-08-20T15:58:05Z H4ns: you said that.  "unable to" because you did not find enough sleep last night?  or "unable to" because there is some specific error?
2014-08-20T15:58:20Z akkad: unable to because I am a freaking idiot?
2014-08-20T15:58:41Z H4ns: while that could be a possibility, i would not assume so as that would not be polite.
2014-08-20T15:58:55Z akkad: I am asking as I can't figure it out
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2014-08-20T15:59:23Z H4ns: right.  you said so.  what is the problem?  or do you expect someone else to fix your incomplete program for you?
2014-08-20T15:59:29Z akkad: I get back a cons of ("nil_classes" NIL)
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2014-08-20T15:59:53Z tokenrove: basichash: under a good faith assumption, i would like to recommend peter norvig's paradigms of ai programming as a good book to leaf through for some inspiration on why lisp might be good for ai.  it should be noted that it's more of a lisp book than an ai book.
2014-08-20T15:59:53Z akkad: yeah you're right.
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2014-08-20T16:01:47Z basichash: thanks tokenrove. I've recently been getting some exposure to AI (specifically deep learning), and it seems like a really interesting field to be involved with. Heard that lisp is a popular language for AI programming, that's why I was curious
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2014-08-20T16:04:11Z tokenrove: basichash: norvig's AI: A Modern Approach is a better AI book, but it's not lisp-specific.  there are also a number of other AI books which use lisp (as was the fashion at the time), but PAIP is just a great book.  it's one of those books that might make lisp "click" with you.
2014-08-20T16:04:24Z H4ns: basichash: i'd approach the problem space from contemporary literature, not from the programming language used.  many features that made lisp unique in the early days of ai have been assimilated by other programming language, and contemporary ai research does no longer predominately use lisp.
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2014-08-20T16:05:24Z H4ns: basichash: among those "ai" features are automatic garbage collection, symbols, associative memory - common features of all modern programming languages.
2014-08-20T16:07:58Z Adlai: interestingly enough, these are features of "non-artificial" intelligence, too!
2014-08-20T16:08:16Z Adlai: turns out that greenspun's 10th holds true for evolution too
2014-08-20T16:08:19Z spockokt: they are features of natural intelligence
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2014-08-20T16:13:33Z basichash: tokenrove, H4ns: maybe non-language-specific books are better initially, to get the foundations down (AI: AMA looks really interesting). Thanks for the advice
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2014-08-20T16:16:34Z pjb: Let's all AI newbies come to Common Lisp!
2014-08-20T16:16:46Z Adlai: basichash: well, what are you trying to do? "AI" is too broad a term to meaningful, if you ask me.
2014-08-20T16:17:01Z pjb: Adlai: nonetheless, let them come to CL!
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2014-08-20T16:17:11Z Adlai: of course
2014-08-20T16:17:15Z pjb: And you can do stockastic AI as well as symbolic AI.
2014-08-20T16:17:17Z pjb: in CL.
2014-08-20T16:17:36Z Adlai: anybody who wants to benefit from my (eventually to be) open source thingy will have to learn lisp :)
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2014-08-20T16:17:49Z pjb: Way to go!
2014-08-20T16:17:57Z Adlai: really the main reason why it's not open source already is that the code is total shit and i'd never show my face in public again
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2014-08-20T16:19:19Z basichash: akkad: i don't really have any particular project to do, but stuff like CV, and using that data to navigate obstacles, plan routes etc is really cool
2014-08-20T16:19:26Z basichash: Adlai: ^
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2014-08-20T16:20:38Z basichash: For example having a quadcopter track you as you move at 100 kph
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2014-08-20T16:20:57Z Adlai didn't know they could move that fast
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2014-08-20T16:21:55Z basichash: Adlai: well maybe 80 kph (relatively fast skiing speed)
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2014-08-20T16:29:19Z bullone: test from erc
2014-08-20T16:29:57Z Adlai: bullone: test positive
2014-08-20T16:30:10Z bullone: Adlai:Thank you:-)
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2014-08-20T16:47:25Z tokenrove: basichash: you might also find Computational Geometry by de Berg et al. to be useful.  it's one of my favorite books on computational geometry algorithms and covers some interesting route planning/pathfinding techniques
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2014-08-20T16:53:03Z drmeister: Anybody see this?   Lispers are the happiest programmers!   https://github.com/Dobiasd/programming-language-subreddits-and-their-choice-of-words/blob/master/README.md
2014-08-20T16:53:33Z drmeister: And PHP programmers curse the most.
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2014-08-20T16:53:54Z drmeister: I do say, this completely reinforces my world view.
2014-08-20T16:55:11Z drmeister: Wait - I misspoke and misinterpreted:  Lispers are the most cheerful programmers.
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2014-08-20T16:56:20Z pessoa: and where do cobol programmers wind up?
2014-08-20T16:56:31Z spockokt: pessoa: in the underworld
2014-08-20T16:56:37Z pessoa: cool
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2014-08-20T17:00:16Z pessoa: do php programmers outside the web-scripting world curse less than the average php programmer?
2014-08-20T17:00:38Z spockokt: there are php programmers who do stuf other than web?
2014-08-20T17:01:17Z pessoa: php can be used standalone
2014-08-20T17:01:26Z spockokt reels in horror
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2014-08-20T17:01:57Z spockokt: ive heard php can be used a shell scripting language but never actually seen it
2014-08-20T17:02:22Z basichash: i'd recommend against using php period
2014-08-20T17:02:28Z pessoa: there are modules like php-gtk which make no sense in a server-side script
2014-08-20T17:02:54Z pessoa: yeah, the syntax is horribly heteroiconic
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2014-08-20T17:03:01Z basichash: tokenrove: that's exactly the sort of thing i was looking for, thanks
2014-08-20T17:05:09Z pessoa: clisp may be used as a shell scripting language as well
2014-08-20T17:05:27Z pessoa: albeit only under rare circumstances
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2014-08-20T17:09:40Z sam```: is there a way to make objects which have methods specialized on them with eql gcable?
2014-08-20T17:11:03Z oGMo: what is "gcable"?
2014-08-20T17:12:15Z H4ns: sam```: i can't think of one.
2014-08-20T17:12:46Z H4ns: sam```: i'd put a key into the object and dispatch on the key, not on the object itself.
2014-08-20T17:13:08Z H4ns: sam```: i'd probably not use generic function dispatch on arbitray object instances anyway.
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2014-08-20T17:37:13Z stacksmith: I am using a library that defines a CLOS class and operations on it.  I derived a subclass of that class with extra slots.  The library does some magic to initialize instances.  Is there an easy (opaque) way to take a existing instance and 'convert' it my (subclassed) instance?  Like shallow-copy existing slots?
2014-08-20T17:38:02Z dlowe: clhs change-class
2014-08-20T17:38:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_chg_cl.htm
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2014-08-20T17:38:28Z dlowe: stacksmith: like that?
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2014-08-20T17:39:46Z stacksmith: dlowe: that looks good.  Thanks.
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2014-08-20T17:41:44Z Xach: stacksmith: i don't think it's that common to do that. you'd often use (call-next-method) in your own initialize-instance.
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2014-08-20T17:42:45Z H4ns: i've been very fond of change-class the few times i've used it in the path.
2014-08-20T17:42:52Z stacksmith: Xach: the library has a function that returns an instance, so the entire initialization process is hidden from me...
2014-08-20T17:44:26Z Xach: i like change-class very much too. it seems like it may be a good fit in this situation, then.
2014-08-20T17:45:26Z stacksmith: The local slots verbiage is a little menacing... The example shows two disjointed classes, but the description clearly states that any matching slots will be copied...
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2014-08-20T17:46:26Z Xach: stacksmith: does it really seem like you are not meant to ever make-instance on the class? maybe it is not designed to be inherited, or not designed well for that purpose, and inheritance isn't the best route?
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2014-08-20T17:50:42Z stacksmith: Xach, true enough.  The original class deals with CFFI to load a ttf font.  I would really like to store some extra data that is relevant to the particular font.  It seems to make sense.  Unless there is an easy way to add slots to an existing instance, Self-style...
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2014-08-20T17:58:51Z Xach: stacksmith: there are other approaches. you could use a table that uses instances for keys, for example.
2014-08-20T17:59:00Z Xach: I'm not saying it's a good idea in this case, but there are options.
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2014-08-20T18:03:01Z stacksmith: Xach: I've considered using external means of tracking.  I would rather not introduce extra objects.  Looking at library's source it seems safe enough to add a few slots...
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2014-08-20T18:05:09Z stacksmith: There are always property lists, I suppose.
2014-08-20T18:06:13Z Xach: what library is it?
2014-08-20T18:06:52Z stacksmith: lispbuilder-sdl, lispbuilder-sdl-ttf.
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2014-08-20T18:24:55Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
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2014-08-20T18:28:48Z Xach: hi beach
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2014-08-20T18:32:11Z tokenrove: whatever happened to the Lisp Gardeners project?
2014-08-20T18:33:44Z whartung: what was that?
2014-08-20T18:33:57Z whartung: I cna't seem to grow anything
2014-08-20T18:35:02Z beach: whartung: From memory: suggesting that people adopt and maintain some library.  My memory can't be trusted though.
2014-08-20T18:35:08Z beach: Xach: Feeling better?
2014-08-20T18:35:16Z whartung: ah I see
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2014-08-20T18:37:14Z Xach: beach: a bit, thanks
2014-08-20T18:38:02Z beach: tokenrove: The pages related to it seem to be gone.
2014-08-20T18:38:54Z beach: tokenrove: Are you thinking of giving it some new life?
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2014-08-20T18:40:48Z Xach: i thought it was a little more general. a lot of people who wanted to help in some way by being told what to do.
2014-08-20T18:41:00Z Xach might be misremembering
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2014-08-20T18:42:42Z mood:  http://paste.lisp.org/display/16632 seems to suggest it was aimed at helping newcomers to lisp
2014-08-20T18:46:38Z beach: Indeed, more general than what I remembered.
2014-08-20T18:47:17Z mood: There's also http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.cl-gardeners, which according to the tagline "Project for taking help of newbies and experienced programmers to improve lisp libraries." might be what beach remembered
2014-08-20T18:47:32Z tokenrove: beach: yes, i was thinking how it was a noble effort and i wanted to contribute, but then i couldn't find any trace of it
2014-08-20T18:48:30Z tokenrove: mood: that tagline is basically what i was thinking, too
2014-08-20T18:48:44Z spockokt: wait did #cl-gardeners become #cl-noobs?
2014-08-20T18:49:24Z mood: spockokt: according to cliki #cl-gardeners merged with #lispcafe
2014-08-20T18:49:38Z spockokt: ah ok
2014-08-20T18:49:56Z spockokt is relatively new to lisp
2014-08-20T18:50:18Z spockokt: i kind of just spread myself over all the lisp irc channels i could find. Didnt realize this channel was for more advanced topics
2014-08-20T18:50:41Z oGMo: it is? hard to tell ;)
2014-08-20T18:52:18Z H4ns: #lisp is okay for all lisp discussions, but it resonates better if questions expose some form of intelligence and effort to solve the problem on behalf of the person asking.
2014-08-20T18:52:56Z H4ns: #lisp is for common lisp discussions.  other lisps should be discussed elsewhere.  beginner questions are completely okay.
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2014-08-20T18:53:13Z spockokt: ah ok. luckily ive been in the linux and coding world long enough to know that much about asking questions
2014-08-20T18:53:17Z H4ns: (my opinion, others may see it differently)
2014-08-20T18:55:01Z beach: tokenrove: I guess you will have to take over the project.  Or start a new one perhaps with an objective more to your liking.
2014-08-20T18:55:57Z beach: H4ns: Pretty well put in my opinion.
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2014-08-20T18:58:35Z beach: I also think that beginners who ask questions that don't expose some form of intelligence should be given a chance to adapt to the conventions before being told to go away.
2014-08-20T18:59:13Z H4ns: yeah.  politeness is never wrong.
2014-08-20T19:02:57Z Ralt: so, sorry if this may be an oft-asked question, but what's the lib/framework to use if one wants to write cross-platform desktop apps?
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2014-08-20T19:04:42Z beach: Ralt: Do you mean applications with GUIs?
2014-08-20T19:05:17Z Xach: Ralt: if one wants to do it with a mature framework that is actively supported by both a commercial entity and enthusiastic users, one uses CAPI
2014-08-20T19:05:23Z Ralt: beach: yes
2014-08-20T19:05:30Z Xach: If one wishes to spend no money, I think people use commonqt or ltk
2014-08-20T19:05:34Z inklesspen: Ralt: i'd almost consider writing an app using hunchentoot and then just be all 'open your webbrowser to http://localhost:1234'
2014-08-20T19:05:49Z Ralt: inklesspen: I'll see if this is an option
2014-08-20T19:06:00Z Ralt: Xach: ok, thanks
2014-08-20T19:06:32Z inklesspen googles CAPI, finds http://www.lispworks.com/products/capi.html
2014-08-20T19:06:40Z inklesspen: wow, this doesn't look native on OS X _or_ Windows
2014-08-20T19:06:51Z Ralt: does LTK work on windows?
2014-08-20T19:06:55Z Ralt: it only says it works on linux/osx
2014-08-20T19:07:42Z Xach: I don't know, actually. I thought it worked on Windows, but that was just an assumption based on the cross-platformness of Tk.
2014-08-20T19:08:22Z Ralt: well, the homepage says it should work, but it looks like it hasn't been tested
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2014-08-20T19:08:47Z mood: inklesspen: What do you find not-native-looking about the windows screenshot? I actually thought they got at least the windows-native part right
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2014-08-20T19:10:04Z inklesspen: the buttons look like windows buttons, yes. (and the mac buttons look like mac buttons). but they're placed wrongly.
2014-08-20T19:10:14Z inklesspen: they don't fit the windows design language
2014-08-20T19:10:21Z inklesspen: (or the mac design language)
2014-08-20T19:10:45Z inklesspen: apps on the different platforms tend to have things in different places. if you always have the same layout on every platform, things will look subtly off.
2014-08-20T19:11:11Z inklesspen: it's like if someone makes a car and they want it to look the same in both left-hand-drive and right-hand-drive markets, so they put the steering wheel in the middle.
2014-08-20T19:11:20Z inklesspen: doesn't look correct _anywhere_
2014-08-20T19:11:52Z mood: inklesspen: Ah, I see your point. The position of "panes" seems to be defined by the programmer though, not by CAPI
2014-08-20T19:12:30Z Adlai: if using windows or mac design idioms is your aim, you could probably wrap the common idioms in a library...
2014-08-20T19:12:48Z inklesspen: mood: i suppose. but when that is the example screenshots they choose to use.... it makes you suspect you will ha
2014-08-20T19:12:51Z inklesspen: er.
2014-08-20T19:12:59Z inklesspen: it makes me suspect i will have an uphill battle to actually look native
2014-08-20T19:14:34Z Xach: beggars can't be choosers. and capi has at least been used by people who get paid to make gui programs, and who sell gui programs for money.
2014-08-20T19:14:42Z Xach: that is not a sole indicator of quality, but it has been tested, and used.
2014-08-20T19:14:50Z tokenrove: inklesspen: i've noticed this is a common complaint with all cross-platform "native" GUI toolkits in all languages
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2014-08-20T19:15:27Z Xach: it would be nice if there was a library to use that was all-singing, all-dancing, free, easy, etc. i can understand why there isn't one (yet?), though.
2014-08-20T19:15:46Z inklesspen: tokenrove: yeah. it's my opinion that the best way is either say "fuck it, i'll make it a desktop 'webapp'" or else implement the logic once and then implement a different frontend for each platform.
2014-08-20T19:16:36Z inklesspen: (some of the best nzb-handling software is a desktop webapp, for instance.)
2014-08-20T19:16:44Z tokenrove: this is something that came up in conversation at ILC, too.  i personally like opengl + sdl, and i have some older code doing widgets in that way i'm going to open source, but it'll never look native
2014-08-20T19:16:54Z inklesspen: (runs on localhost but you view it in your browser)
2014-08-20T19:17:04Z tokenrove: what do people think about wxwidgets?  i remember there was a promising binding that kind of fizzled out, but maybe it could be revived
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2014-08-20T19:17:29Z Xach: if it does something really useful and saves people a lot of time + money or delights them, they won't necessarily bug you about how much it deviates from the mac (or whatever) human interface guidelines.
2014-08-20T19:17:46Z Xach: boring software that you are forced to use is easy to hate for all kinds of reasons.
2014-08-20T19:17:51Z tokenrove: inklesspen: ah, yes, i like that approach, too (native interface communicating with a common core)
2014-08-20T19:17:59Z inklesspen: well, they will bug you. but they'll keep using it anyway. :P
2014-08-20T19:18:19Z oGMo: tokenrove: the problem is still in no small part that native widget stuff is rather lacking, bindings aside
2014-08-20T19:18:22Z tokenrove: that tends to force you to cleanly separate models from view/controller bits
2014-08-20T19:19:15Z tokenrove: ogmo: do you mean, "all native toolkits suck, so far"?
2014-08-20T19:19:26Z oGMo: tokenrove: more or less
2014-08-20T19:20:11Z tokenrove: i mostly agree
2014-08-20T19:20:12Z oGMo: tokenrove: with so much focus on the web, no one has really focused on improving native toolkits recently from what i've seen
2014-08-20T19:20:35Z oGMo: and thta's reflected in the bitrot of bindings and simply nothing satisfactory no matter where you look
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2014-08-20T19:21:45Z tokenrove: what's the state of mcclim these days?
2014-08-20T19:21:52Z oGMo: heh
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2014-08-20T19:27:34Z beach: tokenrove: I am the maintainer.
2014-08-20T19:27:42Z beach: But I am not doing very much right now.
2014-08-20T19:28:37Z beach: Developing CLIM3/CLIMatis, I realize that there are many cases where we (the McCLIM developers) probably didn't understand the CLIM II spec, so now I am thinking there could be common code between the two.
2014-08-20T19:29:40Z tokenrove: beach: has there been much work since 2008 or so?
2014-08-20T19:29:55Z beach: On McCLIM?  Not really, no.
2014-08-20T19:31:10Z beach: But there also has not been much bitrot, so it still works well for the kind of applications it was intended for.
2014-08-20T19:31:14Z tokenrove: in an ideal world, it would be nice to have a truly CL gui toolkit with direct native backends, rather than bindings to something else.  do you still think CLIM is the right API for that?
2014-08-20T19:31:55Z beach: tokenrove: CLIM3 is (going to be) significantly different from CLIM II.  There are things in CLIM II that are no longer relevant.
2014-08-20T19:32:41Z beach: Also, I am thinking I should write a large number of ordinary gadgets so that people can use it as a more traditional GUI toolkit.
2014-08-20T19:33:04Z tokenrove: cool.  i will start following the CLIMatis repository then.
2014-08-20T19:33:10Z beach: CLIM3/CLIMatis that is.  But again, it might be possible to share code with McCLIM.
2014-08-20T19:33:23Z beach: tokenrove: Great!
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2014-08-20T19:34:02Z beach: tokenrove: moore33 is currently helping me design the protocols for presentations and presentation types.
2014-08-20T19:34:43Z tokenrove: i am not going to pretend that i will be able to jump right in and help now, but i would like to keep an eye on it because the opportunity may arise.
2014-08-20T19:34:58Z beach: Yeah, OK.  Sounds good.
2014-08-20T19:37:25Z oGMo: i want to see a message-driven "widget server" frontend that's not the web .. something like the Lemur ui, but for apps
2014-08-20T19:37:54Z White_Flame: technically, Tk is like that
2014-08-20T19:38:24Z White_Flame: or more specifically, Tcl/Tk
2014-08-20T19:38:26Z oGMo: i only recall tk with tcl, but it wasn't quite the same
2014-08-20T19:38:42Z beach: oGMo: There are currently too many people who want to see things that don't yet exist, and not enough people to create those things.
2014-08-20T19:38:59Z White_Flame: people are too busy creating things that already exist, just on other configurations
2014-08-20T19:39:13Z oGMo: some people are too busy filling in the gaps to get there :p
2014-08-20T19:40:05Z rme: Have you seen Bartlett's 1991 paper?  http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.45.4520
2014-08-20T19:40:06Z White_Flame: We're standardizing on the web, with a message-based generic javascript library to be commanded.  It seems to be a reasonable decision
2014-08-20T19:40:28Z oGMo: White_Flame: i have to disagree with whatever your definition of "reasonable" is then
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2014-08-20T19:41:25Z oGMo: rme: ah no, but i will now. my primary goal was to build a tk-esque canvas to start with, which sounds like where this is going
2014-08-20T19:41:26Z White_Flame: it's practical, compatible, and doesn't require too much custom development.  Once the initial javascript is done, the hope is never to have to deal with programming directly in a web container again (for basic widget stuff)
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2014-08-20T19:41:46Z oGMo: nothing has been quite as nice as tk's "draw some shape here, now respond to events on it" since tk
2014-08-20T19:42:43Z oGMo: White_Flame: heh if only that were remotely how it worked :P
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2014-08-20T19:43:09Z oGMo: "the new chrome release breaks _what_? IE isn't compatible _how_?"
2014-08-20T19:43:19Z tokenrove: adapting nile/gezira to cl might be an effective alternative to cairo if you're opposed to binding it
2014-08-20T19:43:37Z oGMo: tokenrove: cairo has bindings (i actually maintain them!), but it's just drawing, not scenegraph
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2014-08-20T19:44:19Z tokenrove: i have a buggy, incomplete gl-based 2D scenegraph from about eight years ago i am planning to release.
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2014-08-20T19:45:15Z tokenrove: if your drawing is fast enough, your scenegraph can be pretty simple, anyway.
2014-08-20T19:45:47Z oGMo: i have an abstracted cairo-based one with fonts etc, but then SWIG up and stopped working and my xcb/clx stuff needed updating, and now i'm who knows how many yaks deep in other things
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2014-08-20T19:46:09Z beach: tokenrove: It sounds to me like you might want to get in touch with moore33.  He is doing something with scenegraphs.
2014-08-20T19:46:15Z oGMo: tokenrove: yeah, all the tools are actually at hand
2014-08-20T19:47:43Z tokenrove: beach: has he been around irc lately?  i am planning to "idle aggressively" until i feel caught up with what's happening here.
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2014-08-20T19:48:23Z beach: tokenrove: He has recently started hanging out here again.
2014-08-20T19:48:43Z oGMo: rme: er.. is ezd still around? that looks pretty immediately useful actually
2014-08-20T19:48:59Z beach: tokenrove: OK, then I advice you to bug him when he is around, just to make him tell everyone what he is up to.
2014-08-20T19:49:10Z rme: oGMo: I don't know.  Probably not, but the paper stuck with me for some reason.
2014-08-20T19:49:19Z tokenrove: beach: certainly.  thanks.
2014-08-20T19:49:42Z oGMo: rme: i can see why
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2014-08-20T19:50:29Z oGMo: that was 1990; it's 2014 and we can't figure out what to use for native gui apps
2014-08-20T19:50:59Z dlowe: that's not a problem unique to lisp
2014-08-20T19:51:08Z rme: At least Motif is mostly dead, so that's an improvement.
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2014-08-20T19:52:14Z oGMo: dlowe: not my claim, like i said above, it's a problem regardless of lisp
2014-08-20T19:52:27Z oGMo: rme: heh, true
2014-08-20T19:54:15Z dlowe: well, we had just about perfected getting bits to a screen when everyone started wanting to use gpus and of course we had to rewrite everything
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2014-08-20T20:09:49Z oGMo: dlowe: not exactly .. GL doesn't change much, really. e.g., the render/damage/composite stuff added to X works perfectly fine for getting bits to the screen with gpu and all the bells and whistles. the main thing is development on things like wayland etc have stagnated
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2014-08-20T20:50:41Z jdoolin: I'd like to produce some nicely formatted documents from some data in a Lisp program.  What is the path of least resistance here?  I've seen cl-pdf and cl-typesetting as well as cl-who.  I'm not particularly picky about format, as long as those who wish to print it could do so easily.  I'll probably run with cl-pdf or cl-who unless there's something out there i'm totally unaware of
2014-08-20T20:51:34Z pessoa: translate to latex
2014-08-20T20:52:22Z H4ns: jdoolin: i'm using fop for formatting, it works great.
2014-08-20T20:52:36Z H4ns: jdoolin: it requires some xsl skills to be effective, though.
2014-08-20T20:52:45Z Xach: cl-pdf is pretty low-level. i used it to fake some spreadsheet PDFs but it took a lot of work. i haven't used cl-typesetting.
2014-08-20T20:54:18Z H4ns: jdoolin: i used cl-pdf to generate graphics and text that i then combined with a pre-produced pdf using pdftk.  that worked well, too.
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2014-08-20T20:59:31Z dim: I'm fond of latex as an intermediate format, currently using markdown as the main format and pandoc as the processor, didn't try to generate docs directly from lisp without calling “system” tools
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2014-08-20T21:05:14Z pessoa: FOP requires Java, icky!
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2014-08-20T21:06:31Z stacksmith: I've asked a similar question before, but this is narrower.  I am looking for a library to display text (to build a simple UI - scrolling around, searching etc.)  I am leaning towards sdl (lispbuilder-sdl), although the way sdl handles antialiased text is a little wonky.  ncurses is a little too primitive (and hard to cohabitate with). Emacs would work, but I am not quite ready to take it on.  Is there something relatively modern that
2014-08-20T21:06:31Z stacksmith: displays good anti-aliased text?
2014-08-20T21:07:14Z dim: stacksmith: you mean, like a web browser?
2014-08-20T21:07:33Z pessoa: I never understood the concept of anti-aliasing
2014-08-20T21:08:07Z beach: stacksmith: McCLIM is actually pretty good for that kind of stuff.
2014-08-20T21:08:29Z stacksmith: dim: that would almost work, but I would rather not introduce a layer as thick as serving html.  Although it has benefits.
2014-08-20T21:08:52Z beach: stacksmith: You will need mcclim-truetype for the anti-aliasing.
2014-08-20T21:09:06Z stacksmith: beach: I was just about to ask about that.
2014-08-20T21:09:17Z dim: well, what I'm doing nowadays is compiling the lisp code into a all-included binary, doing load time tricks to have all the static resources in the image at buildapp time
2014-08-20T21:09:23Z beach: pessoa: It's a trick to compensate for the fact that most screens are still pretty low resolution.
2014-08-20T21:09:59Z dim: stacksmith: so at the end I have ./lisp-coded-app start and users point their browser to http://localhost:9999/ and off you go
2014-08-20T21:10:25Z stacksmith: dim: what do you use to serve pages?
2014-08-20T21:10:25Z beach: pessoa: With new devices such as the Nexus 10, we might very well no longer need it.
2014-08-20T21:10:31Z dim: McClim. someday I'll have to approach that beast.
2014-08-20T21:10:34Z pessoa: my screen definitely is, 12 years old
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2014-08-20T21:10:47Z dim: stacksmith: hunchentoot + simple-routes (hacked, didn't contribute back, oops)
2014-08-20T21:11:53Z stacksmith: McCLIM seemed so medieval.  Does anyone still use it?
2014-08-20T21:11:55Z jdoolin: yeah, cl-pdf *is* pretty low level.
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2014-08-20T21:12:13Z beach: stacksmith: I use it for an application that lets me display Vietnamese text, and when I mouse over a words, I see the English translation in a different window.
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2014-08-20T21:13:00Z stacksmith: beach: that's exactly what I wanted to build! just kidding.  But it sounds promising, I'll take another look.
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2014-08-20T21:13:44Z pessoa: groff is maybe simpler than latex, but more restricted in scope
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2014-08-20T21:14:14Z beach: stacksmith: If you remind me, I'll put my application on GitHub.  Right now, I am confined to a dinky notebook in a hotel room with a flaky connection.  But I can do that when I get back to my usual environment.
2014-08-20T21:14:18Z jdoolin: I like the idea of a latex intermediary format
2014-08-20T21:14:36Z jdoolin: mostly because it's a known entity for me.  ;-)
2014-08-20T21:15:23Z pessoa: yeah, latex rocks, or its cousin context
2014-08-20T21:15:49Z stacksmith: beach: Thanks, I'll remind you.  I'll be away for a few days anyway.
2014-08-20T21:15:51Z Shinmera: TeX gets gross as soon as you want to make some complicated macros
2014-08-20T21:16:00Z beach: stacksmith: OK, deal!
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2014-08-20T21:17:08Z pessoa: luatex allows for using lua to simplify writing macros, too ba they did not choose anything lispy instead
2014-08-20T21:17:30Z brown```: beach: Please put the application up on GitHub.  Good McCLIM examples are rare.
2014-08-20T21:17:54Z beach: brown```: Yes, I will.  I wrote a note to myself.
2014-08-20T21:18:16Z beach: It's a good opportunity to clean it up as well.  Right now it is just my private tool, so quirks don't matter much.
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2014-08-20T21:22:51Z oGMo: there's also that other typesetter .. lout? .. that's pretty good as i recall, and a lot less hideous than TeX to customize
2014-08-20T21:23:27Z oGMo: similar beauty of output, i think it uses TeX's line-wrapping/box-filling algorithms
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2014-08-20T21:28:54Z sellout: tokenrove: The gender balance was pretty upsetting. While both Kathleen and Maxime are certainly more than competent in CS, I feel like Kathleen was only there because beach was, and Maxime only because she is Marc’s student. Were there any other women in attendance?
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2014-08-20T21:33:43Z beach: sellout: Kathleen says there was a third one, but probably another student of Marc's.
2014-08-20T21:34:40Z sellout: beach: I think Maxime is his only female student – so maybe someone actually came for ILC itself!
2014-08-20T21:35:13Z beach: Oh, OK.
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2014-08-20T21:37:50Z logand: jdoolin: or generate html + svg and let an external tool render it to some other format if necessary
2014-08-20T21:38:49Z jdoolin: well, the nice thing is that I don't even have to worry about graphics.  it's all text
2014-08-20T21:39:03Z jdoolin: I suppose I could html/css it up and just serve from hunchentoot
2014-08-20T21:39:23Z logand: :-)
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2014-08-20T21:41:12Z dim: at least you won't have so many rendering bugs to fix yourself
2014-08-20T21:41:21Z dim: and users already know the browser and how to use it
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2014-08-20T21:59:02Z jasom: stacksmith: I think tcl/tk will anti-alias the text
2014-08-20T21:59:15Z jasom: stacksmith: which would open up LTK as a possibility
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2014-08-20T23:59:36Z rk[imposter]: https://github.com/Dobiasd/programming-language-subreddits-and-their-choice-of-words/blob/master/README.md
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2014-08-20T23:59:39Z slyrus wonders if spectacle still works
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2014-08-21T00:04:21Z slyrus: look at that! with mcclim-truetype and all even. nice that it hasn't bitrotted.
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2014-08-21T00:08:19Z slyrus: new version with sharpen/blur/gamma pushed to the github repo if anyone cares
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2014-08-21T00:10:27Z joe-w-bimedina: I was wondering if someone could tell me what this means:  Implicitly creating new generic function
2014-08-21T00:10:28Z joe-w-bimedina:    SWANK-BACKEND::STREAM-READ-CHAR-WILL-HANG-P.  I see it in inferior-lisp whenever I start Emacs/SLIME/SBCL
2014-08-21T00:10:49Z joe-w-bimedina: and how I might be able to make it go away
2014-08-21T00:11:03Z Adlai: joe-w-bimedina: by adding the missing defgeneric form to swank
2014-08-21T00:11:32Z joe-w-bimedina: so it's a swank bug?
2014-08-21T00:11:57Z Xach: It's not a bug.
2014-08-21T00:11:58Z pjb: A style impair at least.
2014-08-21T00:12:01Z Xach: Just a style warning.
2014-08-21T00:12:05Z Adlai: it's not a bug, the code works as expected; but it's considered bad style, thus the warning
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2014-08-21T00:12:22Z joe-w-bimedina: Do you know where the swank source is on Ubuntu?
2014-08-21T00:13:03Z Adlai: same place on every OS... https://github.com/slime/slime
2014-08-21T00:13:28Z joe-w-bimedina: oh I meant the install location
2014-08-21T00:13:29Z Adlai: although you could try M-. SWANK-BACKEND::STREAM-READ-CHAR-WILL-HANG-P
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2014-08-21T00:13:45Z joe-w-bimedina: oh thanks;)
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2014-08-21T00:15:34Z akkad: odd drakma is yielding a can't connect. http://hastebin.com/cihuzuwihi yet curl works fine http://hastebin.com/zetisuxeze
2014-08-21T00:16:04Z joe-w-bimedina: yea the M-. just gives error, do you guys just leave your warning in?
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2014-08-21T00:17:19Z joe-w-bimedina: never mind that last one, it would just be my decision if not a bug, thanks again
2014-08-21T00:17:43Z Adlai: M-. should give you the defmethod source location, too
2014-08-21T00:18:20Z Adlai just doesn't use *inferior-lisp* enough to care about that warning
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2014-08-21T00:19:26Z joe-w-bimedina: M-. gives error, I would like to find the install loc, if anyone is on Ubuntu and can post that would be awesome,  yea I use it alot so may remove, though seems if the big dogs at swank left it in it might cause an issue if removed, maybe not
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2014-08-21T00:23:50Z Xach: akkad: odd. does it work in drakma if you use localhost instead of 127.0.0.1?
2014-08-21T00:25:04Z joe-w-bimedina: I probably get the error because I load swank explicitly in my .ad file under depends on so I can call swank::handle-requests
2014-08-21T00:25:10Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec
2014-08-21T00:25:21Z stacksmith: slyrus: have you used mcclim-truetype?
2014-08-21T00:25:27Z pjb: Of course, M-. works only once you've loaded swank/slime.
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2014-08-21T00:26:07Z joe-w-bimedina: I probably get the error because I load swank explicitly in my .asd file under "depends on" so I can call swank::handle-requests is that the best way to intoduce swank into a library, a prefix of swank with double colon doesnt seem to bring it in
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2014-08-21T00:27:49Z ejbs: joe-w-bimedina: (asdf:find-system "swank") -> inspect -> relative pathname slot
2014-08-21T00:28:07Z Xach: I often use things like (ql:where-is-system "swank")
2014-08-21T00:28:08Z ejbs: or absolute-pathname I  guess
2014-08-21T00:28:25Z Xach: it helps me figure out if i'm loading the quicklisp version or from somewhere else on the filesystem
2014-08-21T00:28:38Z joe-w-bimedina: what does the inspect -> ... signify?
2014-08-21T00:28:59Z ejbs: right-click on the resulting object in SLIME, inspect
2014-08-21T00:29:33Z joe-w-bimedina: ok thanks
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2014-08-21T00:46:56Z cy: why can't a lisp-2 have an implicit funcall?
2014-08-21T00:47:28Z pjb: cy: it can have it, just write the macro that makes it implicit.  There's an example of such a macro in a post of Pascal Costanza on cll.
2014-08-21T00:47:57Z cy: pjb: i guess not "can't" but "shouldn't"
2014-08-21T00:47:59Z cy: what are the arguments against it?
2014-08-21T00:48:24Z pjb: cy:  but basically the problem is to distinguish (funcall sin 3) from (sin 3) in: (let ((sin (function cos))) (list (sin 3) (sin 3)))
2014-08-21T00:48:29Z pjb: guess which one is which!
2014-08-21T00:49:05Z Xach: According to Lisp in Small Pieces, lisp-2 can make some optimizations because of its fuunction form evaluation rules, too.
2014-08-21T00:49:33Z cy: pjb: if it's at the start of a lisp form shouldn't it be assumed that it's being used as a function, though?
2014-08-21T00:50:00Z pjb: cy: the question is what function to use? (function sin) or sin?
2014-08-21T00:50:11Z pjb: in CL, it's (function sin) that's used.
2014-08-21T00:50:38Z cy: i see, so it's for when you set the value of something to a function?
2014-08-21T00:50:44Z pjb: Yes.
2014-08-21T00:51:18Z pjb: In scheme, since it's a lisp-1  there's only values bound to variables.  sin is a variable, and there's no function operator, therefore no funcall needed.
2014-08-21T00:52:07Z cy: that actually makes sense. not sure why i didn't realize that
2014-08-21T00:52:07Z cy: heh
2014-08-21T00:52:14Z slyrus: stacksmith: yes, spectacle uses it
2014-08-21T00:53:05Z cy: hmm, i guess most languages operate like a lisp-1?
2014-08-21T00:53:12Z cy: when they have first class functions that is
2014-08-21T00:53:53Z cy: or not. i don't know. now i'm just confusing myself
2014-08-21T00:53:56Z cy: heh
2014-08-21T00:54:11Z jasom: cy: That sounds correct; if you can bind a callable object to a variable, you can usually call it directly.
2014-08-21T00:57:01Z cy: jasom: i'm just trying to think of how it would work in a typical language with first class functions if you did something equivalent to (defun f (f) (funcall f))
2014-08-21T00:57:42Z jasom: cy: even many languages without first-class functions eschew funcall (e.g. C)
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2014-08-21T00:58:07Z cy: jasom: what do you mean by eschew?
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2014-08-21T00:58:52Z jasom: cy: In this case "do without"
2014-08-21T00:59:06Z cy: got it
2014-08-21T00:59:16Z jasom: in C you can do void (*foo)(int); foo( 2 );
2014-08-21T00:59:30Z jasom: or you can use a more explicit call to a function pointer: (*foo)( 2 );
2014-08-21T00:59:31Z cy: i'm gonna test this in Go real quick
2014-08-21T00:59:47Z jasom: Go almost certainly lets you call functions from variables directly
2014-08-21T00:59:52Z jasom: since it's syntax is rooted in C
2014-08-21T00:59:57Z jasom: s/it's/its
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2014-08-21T01:02:05Z jasom: cy: http://stackoverflow.com/a/3696948/898258 <-- it appears I'm right
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2014-08-21T01:05:29Z cy: jasom: basically i just wanted to know if Go kept its defined functions in the same namespace as variables
2014-08-21T01:05:31Z cy: which it does
2014-08-21T01:06:49Z jasom can't think of a language invented after 1980 that allows functions as variables, but doesn't keep them in the same namespace (though he's sure there is one)
2014-08-21T01:06:51Z cy: jasom: http://bpaste.net/show/fbc735675785 prints "blarg?"
2014-08-21T01:07:15Z cy: jasom: if they were in a different namespace it wouldn't because f() doesn't return anything
2014-08-21T01:07:27Z cy: common lisp :P
2014-08-21T01:07:52Z cy: common lisp was invented after 1980 wasn't it?
2014-08-21T01:07:55Z cy: i want to think it was
2014-08-21T01:08:26Z jasom: cy: 1984 was CLtL, but it largely was about codifying and unifying existing lisp practices
2014-08-21T01:08:53Z cy: anyway i just wanted to see what the general consensus was for having one or having multiple namespaces
2014-08-21T01:09:03Z Adlai: CL was a lisp-N long before 1980
2014-08-21T01:09:25Z cy: at least, one or two namespaces for functions and variables
2014-08-21T01:10:45Z jasom: cy: I think the technical arguments for one over the other are weak; there are usability arguments, but being used to one trumps any absolute difference between the two IMO, so it's hard to get a feel for which is more usable
2014-08-21T01:11:03Z Adlai: it makes sense that single-namespace design would be more popular, less state to keep in programmers' minds
2014-08-21T01:11:38Z cy: jasom: i get what you're saying. i was really just curious which was more common
2014-08-21T01:11:41Z jasom: Adlai: but natural language distinguishes between nouns and verbs by syntax
2014-08-21T01:11:49Z cy: if CL was an exception or the norm
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2014-08-21T01:12:16Z Adlai: jasom: and look where that gets us. try explaining buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo to a non-native speaker...
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2014-08-21T01:12:50Z Adlai: of course, simpler languages aren't necessarily *better*
2014-08-21T01:12:53Z cy: Adlai: try explaining buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo to a native speaker who hasn't studied english syntax
2014-08-21T01:12:56Z jasom: Adlai: can't explain it to most native-speakers since buffalo as a verb is not well known (also you forgot to capitalize some of the Buffalos)
2014-08-21T01:13:06Z Xach: was that coincidence?
2014-08-21T01:13:24Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2014-08-21T01:13:36Z Xach: independent buffaloing?
2014-08-21T01:14:06Z Adlai feels buffalod
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2014-08-21T01:14:25Z jasom: Adlai: Ultimately I like having variables that must be lists, but are otherwise uninteresting named "list"; that's my only argument for lisp-2
2014-08-21T01:14:32Z jasom: and I'm off to dinner
2014-08-21T01:14:46Z Adlai: it's great for job security
2014-08-21T01:15:09Z Adlai: along with standardized order of argument evaluation
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2014-08-21T01:16:21Z Adlai: although i guess "argument execution" is more appropriate in those cases...
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2014-08-21T01:28:05Z cy: well. i just found a guy who really doesn't like lisp.
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2014-08-21T01:38:01Z Xach: you don't have to look hard
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2014-08-21T01:39:10Z jdoolin: yeah, I was just going to say, throw a rock in the air and you'll hit someone who really doesn't like lisp
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2014-08-21T01:39:52Z tokenrove: there are plenty, and most without good reason.  just stay positive.
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2014-08-21T01:40:16Z pillton: cy: Tell us when you find someone that doesn't like lisp but knows lisp.
2014-08-21T01:40:28Z cy: pillton: pff
2014-08-21T01:40:41Z cy: that sentence made my day
2014-08-21T01:41:40Z cy: i mention lisp and their response is to call it a "compilation of historical accidents, codified"
2014-08-21T01:41:53Z pillton: Oh that is Zhivago.
2014-08-21T01:43:23Z pillton: Just say the human body is a compilation of historical accidents. QED.
2014-08-21T01:43:49Z cy: hmm? no his nick was Tv`
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2014-08-21T02:02:13Z Xach: Plenty of people like their own vision of Lisp but have bones to pick with everyone else's.
2014-08-21T02:02:30Z Xach: Common Lisp is a popular target. "it could have been so much better if only..."
2014-08-21T02:02:40Z InvalidCo: mm
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2014-08-21T02:02:57Z InvalidCo: I personally like the fact that it's possible to touch unsafe stuff
2014-08-21T02:02:58Z Xach mostly tries not to care, and to make new things that are useful and fun
2014-08-21T02:03:01Z phadthai: although everything could be better, including CL
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2014-08-21T02:03:27Z InvalidCo: or in other words, no weird source-stabbing fixes like with oop languages that have all those "protection" schemes
2014-08-21T02:03:43Z Xach: With great power comes great responsibility
2014-08-21T02:03:46Z InvalidCo: mmm
2014-08-21T02:03:57Z InvalidCo: at least the repl warns you if you're about to do something stupid!
2014-08-21T02:04:48Z Xach: some repls do, some repls don't.
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2014-08-21T02:05:07Z phadthai: it probably depends on the "stupidity" level heh
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2014-08-21T02:06:54Z acebulf: hey guys, whats
2014-08-21T02:07:21Z acebulf: what's the most commonly used lisp variant in industry?
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2014-08-21T02:07:51Z hefner mumbles something about javascript...
2014-08-21T02:07:57Z nightfly: Clojure is pretty popular right now
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2014-08-21T02:13:44Z Adlai bets on emacs lisp or autolisp
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2014-08-21T02:14:43Z InvalidCo: I wonder if I could use clojure for this java game project
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2014-08-21T02:15:09Z InvalidCo: I'm getting pretty tired of this syntax ambiguity clowning
2014-08-21T02:15:25Z InvalidCo: and all these stupid, stupid idioticisms
2014-08-21T02:15:27Z InvalidCo: asd
2014-08-21T02:16:08Z InvalidCo: for example, no overloading operators
2014-08-21T02:16:15Z InvalidCo: so ArrayLists can't be used with []
2014-08-21T02:16:23Z InvalidCo: instead, you write .get(123)
2014-08-21T02:16:31Z InvalidCo: but
2014-08-21T02:16:35Z InvalidCo: what about remove?
2014-08-21T02:16:45Z InvalidCo: methods can be overloaded
2014-08-21T02:16:46Z InvalidCo: and are
2014-08-21T02:17:14Z InvalidCo: so there are two variants of .remove in ArrayLists
2014-08-21T02:17:28Z InvalidCo: remove(int) -> E and remove(Object) -> boolean
2014-08-21T02:17:51Z InvalidCo: not only those return different types but they also do different things
2014-08-21T02:18:00Z InvalidCo: int removes the object at that certain position
2014-08-21T02:18:09Z InvalidCo: and Object finds the Object and removes it
2014-08-21T02:18:23Z InvalidCo: so...what if you have an arraylist of integers?
2014-08-21T02:18:47Z InvalidCo: my best guess is that since int is pass-by-value, you won't really make an arraylist of those
2014-08-21T02:18:55Z InvalidCo: you'll make an arraylist of Integer
2014-08-21T02:19:07Z InvalidCo: which, I think, is a different type from int
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2014-08-21T02:20:01Z InvalidCo: it is, of course, a subclass of Object
2014-08-21T02:20:14Z InvalidCo: so it resolves to remove that particular integer
2014-08-21T02:20:47Z Xach: InvalidCo: This channel is for discussion of Common Lisp.
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2014-08-21T02:21:24Z InvalidCo: Xach: looks like you've misplaced your @
2014-08-21T02:21:53Z InvalidCo: in any case, I want to hear if things are any better with clojure
2014-08-21T02:22:40Z phadthai: there most probably is a clojure channel
2014-08-21T02:22:51Z InvalidCo: but of course
2014-08-21T02:22:51Z acebulf: #clojure has ~700 users
2014-08-21T02:23:15Z acebulf: they are less active than the community here, however
2014-08-21T02:23:19Z InvalidCo: resume the exciting whispers of join/part, then
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2014-08-21T02:23:25Z InvalidCo: less active?
2014-08-21T02:24:00Z acebulf: I find that people in #lisp are very active compared to most other ircs
2014-08-21T02:24:42Z csziacobus: http://ur1.ca/i0sis
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2014-08-21T02:28:11Z csziacobus: does anyone know if there are plans for any non-sbcl implementations to pick up the extensible sequence proposal?
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2014-08-21T02:46:43Z hefner: I just dumped some old stuff on github: https://github.com/ahefner/Laser-Spigot and https://github.com/ahefner/glorious-galactic-genocide
2014-08-21T02:47:24Z hefner is surprised these are still buildable
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2014-08-21T03:03:35Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm trying to convert this C++ statement to Lisp and my conversion is coming out differently than C++:  C++: (float(1 * 2 - 3 * 4 / 5)) = 0 Lisp;(floor (- (* 1 2) (/ (* 3 4) 5)))
2014-08-21T03:03:39Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec
2014-08-21T03:03:54Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm trying to convert this C++ statement to Lisp and my conversion is coming out differently than C++:  C++: (float(1 * 2 - 3 * 4 / 5)) = 0  Lisp:(floor (- (* 1 2) (/ (* 3 4) 5)))  = -1
2014-08-21T03:04:12Z joe-w-bimedina: I think I am following all the rules. Can some one spot my error
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2014-08-21T03:08:33Z joe-w-bimedina: my mistake should be: (1 * 2 - 3 * 4 / 5) for c++
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2014-08-21T03:09:18Z hefner: C++ gives zero?
2014-08-21T03:10:42Z zRecursive: Why does (subst '(2 (3)) '(2) '(1 (2)) :test #'equal) return (1 (2 (3))) not (1 (2) (3)) ?
2014-08-21T03:10:59Z hefner: ah, you did say that.
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2014-08-21T03:11:43Z csziacobus: jow-w-bimedina: c++ / does not correspond to lisp's /
2014-08-21T03:11:48Z hefner: anyway, the intermediate result 3 * 4 / 5 is all integer operations in C++, and 12/5 in C++ yields 2
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2014-08-21T03:13:20Z joe-w-bimedina: never mind, found out it should be (- (* 1 2) (floor (/ (* 3 4) 5)))
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2014-08-21T03:19:27Z zRecursive: clhs subst
2014-08-21T03:19:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_substc.htm
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2014-08-21T03:22:08Z zRecursive: pls ignore that message :)
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2014-08-21T04:00:58Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: you can just do (truncate (* 3 4) 5)
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2014-08-21T04:01:26Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: and IIRC C++ will truncate, not floor integer division
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2014-08-21T04:03:35Z joe-w-bimedina: sorry my alerts were off, I didnt notice any responses to that post, yea I figured out a new debugging technique just what hefner said, seemed hard at first but now is easy, thank you for all the responses though
2014-08-21T04:03:54Z joe-w-bimedina: really not floor, ok thanks!
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2014-08-21T04:09:49Z hiredman: is there some function/system to easily turn a character stream in to a binary stream?
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2014-08-21T04:12:35Z hiredman: I ask because I am trying to pass the stream I get out of trivial-http to cl-xmlspam, and it says the stream is not a binary input stream, I know read-char and read-line work on the stream, but read-byte fails
2014-08-21T04:12:58Z hiredman: (I am not really familiar with cl's io stuff if you can't tell)
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2014-08-21T04:18:32Z phadthai: hiredman: one difficulty is that characters have encodings, so they should be encoded to bytes (in the case where every character corresponds to a byte, "bivalent" streams could be used, or you could encode/decode on the fly and write bytes to a binary stream yourself)
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2014-08-21T04:19:01Z phadthai: the flexi-streams library includes bivalent streams
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2014-08-21T04:19:53Z phadthai: babel is a portable library which provides character decoder/encoders
2014-08-21T04:20:04Z phadthai: although there also are implementation-specific equivalents
2014-08-21T04:21:09Z phadthai: note the external-format, which can be configured for character streams, for the same reason
2014-08-21T04:21:52Z hiredman: phadthai: I see, I guess I'll look in to bivalent then
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2014-08-21T05:38:38Z kaloomba: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2014-08-21T06:32:23Z joe-w-bimedina: drmeister said the other day that he was going to talk to his lawyers and get a possible release date, did he mention anything here on that?
2014-08-21T06:33:00Z pessoa: release date for what? Clozure?
2014-08-21T06:33:13Z joe-w-bimedina: no for Clasp
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2014-08-21T06:39:24Z joe-w-bimedina: pessoa: sorry about that I assumed everybody heard about Clasp on here
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2014-08-21T06:41:14Z pnpuff: joe-w-bimedina: you're talking about something that we've never seen
2014-08-21T06:41:51Z brucem: joe-w-bimedina: he's really busy working on it still ... I helped him some with some of his MPS issues.
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2014-08-21T06:42:56Z zRecursive: Although i prefer SBCL's way to compile CL codes to ECL's way, i still wish i would build Maxima using clasp :)
2014-08-21T06:43:02Z joe-w-bimedina: great thanks for helping with that, I thought it was in his lawyers hands, at least thats what he said, I'm actually referring to the implementation inspecific part though
2014-08-21T06:43:24Z pessoa: what is clasp?
2014-08-21T06:44:04Z brucem: joe-w-bimedina: the legal parts are probably independent of and parallel to the implementation work. :)
2014-08-21T06:44:29Z pnpuff: lawrers... omg :-(
2014-08-21T06:44:37Z brucem: pessoa: CLASP is a CL implementation that involves C++ and LLVM
2014-08-21T06:44:38Z pnpuff: lawyers :-(
2014-08-21T06:44:59Z brucem: pnpuff: anything done on someone else's dime is going to involve lawyers though :(
2014-08-21T06:45:51Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm excited about it, I'm going to implement it in my library unless Clasp compiler is so awesome I end up ditching my project altogether. sounded like he said it was done but now I remember him mentioning the MPS stuff
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2014-08-21T06:51:37Z pessoa: llvm sounds compliated, whence I better stick with good old GNU CLISP
2014-08-21T06:54:38Z joe-w-bimedina: The Clasp compiler is a whole new Lisp, it should make importing C++ functions into Lisp incredibly easy and just as fast as C++ I think, its a god send for library builders, its going to revolutionize the whole process
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2014-08-21T06:55:45Z brucem: maybe.
2014-08-21T06:57:03Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm jumping right in and if there are any holes I 'll try to help him improve it
2014-08-21T06:58:14Z joe-w-bimedina: why do you say maybe brucem: ?
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2014-08-21T06:59:08Z brucem: because even 'maybe' is optimistic compared to what you said (head in clouds).
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2014-08-21T06:59:31Z Shinmera: also we don't really know anything yet
2014-08-21T07:00:12Z brucem: is it buggy? is it fast? how is memory usage? how is doing C++ FFI stuff really? ... you could go on and on with questions.
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2014-08-21T07:00:22Z joe-w-bimedina: I figure I spend so much time developing my project I might as well implement his code right away and start helping him refine his.
2014-08-21T07:00:24Z pessoa: when will LLVM become standard in stable GNU/Linux distributions? There seem to be some people who deem Clang superior to gcc, for whatever reason ...
2014-08-21T07:00:34Z joe-w-bimedina: I have a lot of ?'s
2014-08-21T07:00:58Z joe-w-bimedina: all that is dependant on if it is fast though
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2014-08-21T07:35:14Z Cymew: pessoa: It has a lot to do with politics. The gcc devs have been stalling some things which the llvm people accpeted and thus they cane away as more likely to accept changes. AFAIK, those things have neded up in gcc in the end.
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2014-08-21T07:45:10Z Zhivago: gcc has just acquired more filth over the years, so it's at a relative disadvantage.
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2014-08-21T08:32:39Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: http://paste.lisp.org/+32OT
2014-08-21T08:33:08Z pjb: Well, this is actually unsigned int.
2014-08-21T08:33:35Z pjb: To translate signed int ops to lisp it's even more complicated.
2014-08-21T08:33:48Z pjb: You have to sign extend after masking.
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2014-08-21T08:36:44Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks pjb: Is this for reference or are you suggesting this would be a good idea to include in my library, to be honest I have been just converting everything to Lisp to far, without intermediary
2014-08-21T08:38:09Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: check the annotation for signed int.  Yes, you could use that if you have to translate C++ int arithmetic.
2014-08-21T08:38:27Z |3b|: better to figure out what it is trying to do and replicate that with CL semantics though
2014-08-21T08:38:40Z pjb: indeed.
2014-08-21T08:38:54Z joe-w-bimedina: that is what I have been doing
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2014-08-21T12:18:23Z akkad:  (drakma:http-request "http://127.0.0.1:4567/get/") can't connect. http://hastebin.com/cihuzuwihi yet curl works fine http://hastebin.com/zetisuxeze
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2014-08-21T12:21:30Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-08-21T12:23:03Z akkad: morning
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2014-08-21T12:29:59Z tokenrove: good morning beach.  i was wondering if profile-guided optimization could yield more efficient orderings of comparisons in your dispatch code than binary search, for cases where the distribution of targets is not uniform.
2014-08-21T12:30:42Z tokenrove: i suspect the difference would be negligible except in extreme cases, but i am trying to microbenchmark a few cases to see.
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2014-08-21T12:32:50Z beach: Yes, I am sure you are right.
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2014-08-21T12:33:56Z beach: It would have to be a generic function with a large-ish number of methods.
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2014-08-21T12:34:38Z beach: ... or rather a large number of entries in the call history.
2014-08-21T12:35:27Z beach: The two are related but not the same.
2014-08-21T12:35:39Z tokenrove: yes, i was thinking of cases like print-object, but where the application is almost always calling print-object on a handful of cases
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2014-08-21T12:35:55Z beach: Right.
2014-08-21T12:36:39Z beach: On the other hand, for print-object, the cost of the dispatch is very likely negligible compared to the resulting output.
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2014-08-21T12:37:24Z beach: Or so says my intuition.  I might be wrong of course.
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2014-08-21T12:38:57Z tokenrove: i suspect you're right.  this isn't so much practical, as a fanciful what-if that segues nicely from some experiments i have been doing on FSM/VM dispatch optimization to the generic dispatch you described for SICL.
2014-08-21T12:40:16Z tokenrove: of course i could model some of those things with clos dispatch and it would make total sense.  well, one step at a time.
2014-08-21T12:40:28Z beach: Yeah, sure.
2014-08-21T12:40:55Z beach: Also, there is the case where there are few methods but still a large call history.
2014-08-21T12:41:27Z akkad: why would drakma on osx not be able to connect to localhost port that curl can...
2014-08-21T12:41:30Z beach: For instance, a single method on some base class, but then a large number of subclasses, and only few of those are actually called.
2014-08-21T12:41:42Z H4ns: akkad: because ipv6
2014-08-21T12:41:51Z H4ns: akkad: try 127.0.0.1 instead of localhost
2014-08-21T12:41:58Z akkad: I did that as well, no luck
2014-08-21T12:42:13Z akkad: web.el works fine on it from emacs.
2014-08-21T12:42:37Z akkad: DRAKMA> (http-request "http://localhost:8080") ;; pretty straight forward
2014-08-21T12:43:34Z akkad: http://hastebin.com/fijirokega for what it's worth
2014-08-21T12:44:36Z akkad: swapped sbcl out for ccl64, no difference.
2014-08-21T12:48:13Z akkad: ahh issue might be ipv6 only
2014-08-21T12:48:26Z akkad: h4ns thanks for the idea
2014-08-21T12:49:17Z akkad: sinatra is only opening up on ipv6. so curl 127.0.0.1 fails.
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2014-08-21T12:53:10Z Cymew: Imagine that, ipv6 only being a problem...
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2014-08-21T12:56:07Z dim: remind me of the advantage of using ipv6 for localhost?
2014-08-21T12:56:19Z H4ns: akkad: thanks :)
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2014-08-21T13:03:47Z hitecnologys: Greetings, earthlings. What XML parsers are good nowadays?
2014-08-21T13:03:54Z H4ns: cxml
2014-08-21T13:04:11Z hitecnologys: OK, thanks, H4ns.
2014-08-21T13:06:10Z hitecnologys: I was quite busy these days, but from quick glances on log I can tell that something nasty happened to Xach. Is he OK?
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2014-08-21T13:08:16Z AeroNotix: He was just ill, afaik
2014-08-21T13:08:42Z hitecnologys: Ah, I see.
2014-08-21T13:09:02Z akkad: h4ns you will get an email from gittip
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2014-08-21T13:23:10Z ejbs: Did you guys know that we're all cats? Huh, I've always wondered why I sleep 18 hours out of my 24-hour day http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/2e5sre/why_racket_why_lisp/cjwg4ex
2014-08-21T13:23:44Z Xach: I wanna be a lion
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2014-08-21T13:24:56Z Xach: hitecnologys: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shingles - no fun.
2014-08-21T13:25:07Z akkad: ouch
2014-08-21T13:25:18Z Xach: Painful, unpleasant but not life-threatening or anything.
2014-08-21T13:25:26Z oGMo: ejbs: i love the "pretty much the same language but with fewer features"
2014-08-21T13:25:45Z hitecnologys: Xach: woah. Well, that's quite unpleasant.
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2014-08-21T13:27:00Z ejbs: Man, the annoying part about liking Lisp is that every other programmer then thinks that it's okay to play therapist with you as the patient
2014-08-21T13:27:44Z oGMo: that's ok, they usually don't notice they're talking to eliza
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2014-08-21T13:28:35Z oGMo: CL certainly has issues, just none of the ones people usually think it does, and they're often a bit niche
2014-08-21T13:28:41Z dim: it annoys me still that for so many people lisp can't be a reasonnable choice of programming language in 2014, even when they know nothing about it and they are running node.js or php in production :(
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2014-08-21T13:30:14Z tokenrove: putting more great cl code in production is the only solution.  the L word has too much baggage; running code is the only way to settle debates about it now.
2014-08-21T13:30:17Z H4ns: dim: any choice of programming language will be questioned.  usually, the questioning person is either dumb, or unexperienced, or both.
2014-08-21T13:30:23Z oGMo: dim: mainstream isn't as desirable as you'd think, and it's perfectly reasonable for everyone else
2014-08-21T13:30:59Z akkad is amazed at how many people seem to get buyers remorse with node
2014-08-21T13:31:02Z dim: H4ns: questioning is good, having no background and still making a judgment is bothering me
2014-08-21T13:31:39Z H4ns: dim: the only solution is to walk away from such people.
2014-08-21T13:31:55Z dim: oGMo: I don't care about mainstream, I care about dev being able to recognize that the 64 bits integer problem they have with node.js has been fixed properly in programming languages from the 70s and the 80s (fixnum, boxed integers, etc)
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2014-08-21T13:32:34Z dim: so maybe they should be open to re-think about using node.js when they ask me to switch from bigserial to serial in the database in order to avoid "precision problems" with their integers in the application
2014-08-21T13:32:43Z dim: anyway, I got started off-tracks
2014-08-21T13:33:09Z dim: H4ns: you have way more wisdom that I do ;-)
2014-08-21T13:33:10Z hitecnologys: H4ns: constructive questioning of choice of language is normal. Why is it wrong?
2014-08-21T13:33:38Z dim: hitecnologys: it is wrong when done to disprove lisp as a valid choice by people who know nothing about it nor want to learn about it
2014-08-21T13:33:46Z H4ns: hitecnologys: it can be right if one wants needs to work together and find agreement.
2014-08-21T13:33:50Z tokenrove: dim: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzkRVzciAZg is pretty much my experience dealing with people who drank that koolaid
2014-08-21T13:34:02Z oGMo: dim: precision problems with integers? heh
2014-08-21T13:34:08Z oGMo: i'll google
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2014-08-21T13:34:24Z ejbs: tokenrove: Hoho, that video never ceases to amuse
2014-08-21T13:34:32Z hitecnologys: dim: exactly.
2014-08-21T13:36:07Z hitecnologys: Not questioning and following mainstream can also be bad thing.
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2014-08-21T13:42:56Z dim: tokenrove: to people who chose node.js for performances, I ask where they come from, and often enough it's PHP... then I mention that node.js is about 4 times as slow as Java, and much slower than .Net too... and watch the reaction, and stop talking about it
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2014-08-21T13:43:43Z dim: now that I mentioned that, I might as well find again the article where I've read about that perf compare...
2014-08-21T13:43:53Z H4ns: dim: now you are questioning their choice.  you deserve to be questioned.
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2014-08-21T13:44:06Z dim: H4ns: I *like* being questioned
2014-08-21T13:44:19Z dim: only when it brings learning on the table, from both ends
2014-08-21T13:44:28Z dim: that's where it gets difficult
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2014-08-21T13:45:02Z dim: ok I'm not finding again that article, will stop playing the "java is faster than node.js" game
2014-08-21T13:45:13Z dim: too bad, it was fun ;-)
2014-08-21T13:45:31Z H4ns: java _is_ faster than node.js, but node.js is javascript.  and that is a valuable feat.
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2014-08-21T13:49:24Z dim: it comes with trade-offs you must know about to be happy about such a choice is all I'm saying, and most people I've been talking about the choice didn't seem to know about those trade-offs
2014-08-21T13:50:06Z H4ns: well, luckily, most people are not in this channel
2014-08-21T13:50:08Z dim: (no integer being one of the most important ones when you rely on being able to compare ids yet didn't swallow the complementary UUID everywhere koolaid)
2014-08-21T13:50:45Z dim: yeah, off topic again, let's get back to playing with postmodern and hunchentoot (and hell yes, javascript for charts in the browser)
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2014-08-21T13:54:50Z redline6561: ferada: Noticed your blog post re:coleslaw. What's your concern with compile-file and quicklisp usage?
2014-08-21T13:55:10Z dim: oh and it seems like I've been drinking the postmodern DAO koolaid myself
2014-08-21T13:55:54Z Xach: I really want to use js (the library) to make an extension language for a project.
2014-08-21T13:56:35Z Shinmera: Speaking of CL in production, my blog is now running on CL software too, woop woop. http://blog.tymoon.eu/
2014-08-21T13:56:39Z Xach: I've been toying with the idea of a smart minecraft proxy that can be extended with either CL or js, and adds a command layer that can support scriptable world mods.
2014-08-21T13:57:10Z redline6561: That's a pretty cool idea, Xach.
2014-08-21T13:57:18Z Xach: Anything to avoid what my son *really* wants, which is for me to teach him java so he can write his own client-side mods
2014-08-21T13:57:28Z Xach would have to learn java first
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2014-08-21T13:58:32Z hitecnologys: Xach: there's already JAMS. Why don't you help me with that? What you're talking about is exactly what I want.
2014-08-21T13:58:40Z Xach: hitecnologys: what is jams?
2014-08-21T13:58:58Z hitecnologys: Xach: Minecraft server written (well, in process of writing) in CL.
2014-08-21T13:59:14Z Xach: hitecnologys: that sounds too complicated to me.
2014-08-21T13:59:15Z hitecnologys: Xach: it should support latest protocol and it does have foundation for extensions.
2014-08-21T13:59:25Z Xach: Where is the code?
2014-08-21T13:59:37Z hitecnologys: Xach: http://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/JAMS
2014-08-21T13:59:55Z hitecnologys: Xach: it's not that complicated. I've done most low-level parts so you can focus on something high-level.
2014-08-21T14:00:07Z Xach: hitecnologys: cool. well, you have written more than me, which is zero
2014-08-21T14:00:12Z Xach: i will check it out!
2014-08-21T14:00:29Z Ober: akkad: how are you going to render stuff in CL? in elisp it made sense, not sure how you could tie that in.
2014-08-21T14:00:31Z hitecnologys: Xach: well, it took almost two years for me to write what I have now.
2014-08-21T14:00:37Z wasamasa: hitecnologys: wait, what kind of server is it
2014-08-21T14:00:52Z hitecnologys: wasamasa: what kind of server if can be?
2014-08-21T14:01:05Z hitecnologys: wasamasa: the one that accepts client connections.
2014-08-21T14:01:06Z wasamasa: hitecnologys: well, it could be a server for a minecraft-like game
2014-08-21T14:01:18Z wasamasa: hitecnologys: or a server you could use the official minecraft clients on
2014-08-21T14:01:22Z hitecnologys: wasamasa: no, it's for Minecraft. I've been following Minecraft protocol.
2014-08-21T14:01:32Z wasamasa: I've seen the former so far
2014-08-21T14:01:53Z Shinmera: Xach: I recall you asking me about my blog having a feed. It does now: http://blog.tymoon.eu/api/reader/atom?tag=common%20lisp
2014-08-21T14:02:00Z wasamasa: which is cool and all, but not really what I'm interested in
2014-08-21T14:02:06Z hitecnologys: wasamasa: you can run it and connect with official client. Though, it doesn't send keep-alive packets so client will kick it within 60 seconds.
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2014-08-21T14:04:45Z wasamasa: hitecnologys: ah, nice
2014-08-21T14:05:35Z hitecnologys: Xach: be sure to use 1.7.6-protocol-migration branch. It contains latest code but it's not yet ready to be merged into stable one.
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2014-08-21T14:09:44Z dim: Xach: what is js (the lib)?
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2014-08-21T14:12:36Z dlowe: hitecnologys: I looked into doing that one time, but third-party servers have real issues with the physics getting out of sync over time
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2014-08-21T14:14:58Z hitecnologys: dlowe: yes, there is such a problem but this effect can be reduced by moving server closer to client (to get rid of high ping). *Everything* handled by server including display of effects and lighting.
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2014-08-21T14:15:34Z hitecnologys: dlowe: on the other hand, this gives infinite number of possibilities to alter gameplay.
2014-08-21T14:17:40Z hitecnologys: dlowe: the worst problem is, actually, not physics but map getting out of sync. It used to happen on older servers and with older versions of protocol but now the situation has improved.
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2014-08-21T14:18:33Z Xach: dim: a js interpreter in common lisp.
2014-08-21T14:18:58Z Xach: dim: a generation or two behind "real" js engines in performance, but perhaps that's fine for what i'd like to do
2014-08-21T14:19:09Z dim: mmm, sounds interesting
2014-08-21T14:19:23Z eudoxia_: why not compile JS to CL
2014-08-21T14:19:30Z eudoxia_: i think cl-javascript does this, partially
2014-08-21T14:19:36Z dim: there's also the other way round, a CL written in JS, that I wanted to try using for a browser based learn-CL game (to play the game, you have to write code, in CL)
2014-08-21T14:19:37Z Xach: I don't know what exactly it does.
2014-08-21T14:19:49Z Xach: Other than allowing you to embed js in a CL application.
2014-08-21T14:20:03Z dim: what's your goal in embedding js in CL?
2014-08-21T14:20:09Z hitecnologys: eudoxia_: because then you would lose some JS behavior.
2014-08-21T14:20:14Z Xach: dim: extension by people who know js but do not know (or want to know) cl.
2014-08-21T14:20:31Z dim: makes sense... includes your son?
2014-08-21T14:20:43Z Xach: No, I'd make him use CL :)
2014-08-21T14:20:49Z dim: I'm asking because I have kids, and if they want to learn programming, I'm wanting to teach them CL rather than JS
2014-08-21T14:20:53Z hitecnologys: eudoxia_: of course it can be emulated, but then it's mostly interpreter.
2014-08-21T14:20:55Z dim: yeah, hehe ;-)
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2014-08-21T14:22:51Z hitecnologys: Xach: I was always wondering how to correctly pronounce your nick. Can you translate it to IPA or something similar?
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2014-08-21T14:23:39Z Xach: zak
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2014-08-21T14:24:20Z hitecnologys: Ah, I see. That was one of my guesses.
2014-08-21T14:24:42Z akkad hunts for pp in ql
2014-08-21T14:26:14Z ferada: redline6561: that was unexpected :)  well, i need to convince the implementation to put the fasls somewhere where it has write rights, because i'm running it under the git user for the hook
2014-08-21T14:26:14Z Xach: hitecnologys: at meetings in europe I often got "ecks artch"
2014-08-21T14:26:53Z ferada: redline6561: re quicklisp, i'm not using it.  imo the plugins should be registered/loaded via asdf, that would be easier
2014-08-21T14:28:16Z hitecnologys: Xach: yeah, that is how I used to pronounce it too until I figured out correct pronounciation of your real name.
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2014-08-21T14:30:00Z redline6561: ferada: ah ha.
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2014-08-21T14:30:28Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: I always pronounced it the way it's written, I guess I have to train myself otherwise now.
2014-08-21T14:30:48Z dim: Xach: sounds more german, in spanish it would sound like "Javier" I would guess
2014-08-21T14:30:52Z redline6561: ferada: I hadn't considered that about the fasls. And, full defsystems for the plugins seems *a bit* overkill to me but I see your point.
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2014-08-21T14:33:37Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: foreign phonetics is usually tough.
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2014-08-21T14:34:44Z ferada: redline6561: yeah i agree, i don't see a good solution apart from not explicitely calling compile-file
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2014-08-21T14:35:27Z redline6561 nods
2014-08-21T14:35:52Z redline6561: Well, if you think of a way to improve the plugin system I'm all ears. :)
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2014-08-21T14:36:03Z ferada: :)
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2014-08-21T15:26:12Z hitecnologys: Are there any benefits of using MAKE-PATHNAME over #P reader macro for hard-coded pathnames?
2014-08-21T15:26:40Z hitecnologys: e.g. (make-pathname :name "foo" :type "bar") vs. #p"foo.bar"
2014-08-21T15:26:44Z H4ns: no
2014-08-21T15:27:01Z hitecnologys: Nice. Thanks for help.
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2014-08-21T15:27:21Z H4ns: i like #P"foo.bar" better, as the upper case P sticks out and matches printed output.
2014-08-21T15:28:42Z |3b|: maybe if you care about portability to implementations with strange ideas of how to parse namestrings
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2014-08-21T15:29:30Z H4ns: i'm sure that someone can come up with a contrieved example in which an explicit make-pathname invocation would be beneficial :)
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2014-08-21T15:32:36Z |3b| suspects most of the cases where it would matter are cases where CL pathname stuff doesn't fit modern systems very well anyway :/
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2014-08-21T15:37:26Z oGMo: and will your code run on any CL/platform which doesn't parse them the way you think anyway
2014-08-21T15:38:08Z Xach: if only there was some way to have an abstract virtual pathname in the code that is mapped to the physical pathname through some kind of mapping mechanism
2014-08-21T15:38:56Z oGMo: actually, does asdf provide that for components? because that would be immensely handy
2014-08-21T15:39:02Z Xach: a "logical pathname", if you will
2014-08-21T15:39:04Z oGMo: i have never thought to check
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2014-08-21T15:39:24Z oGMo: i was about to say "seems logical" :/
2014-08-21T15:42:26Z oGMo: bah, it supports them for components but does not provide them to resolve component paths
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2014-08-21T16:36:11Z slyrus: don't find-system and find-component give you all the tools you need to do that?
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2014-08-21T16:40:25Z oGMo: slyrus: uh sure if you like typing like 3 lines of function calls to get a simple file path
2014-08-21T16:41:00Z oGMo: i have an ASDF-PATH function that lets you do (asdf-path :system component...), but it'd be neat if you could just use pathnames
2014-08-21T16:41:16Z oGMo: seems like a prime case for logical pathnames
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2014-08-21T16:46:57Z slyrus: give it a whirl! I used to use a URI resolver that would walk things like asdf:chemicl/data/isotopes.xml. Should be easy enough to do that with logical pathnames too!
2014-08-21T16:48:03Z oGMo: heh yeah, one more thing for the to-do pile ;/
2014-08-21T16:48:05Z slyrus: in the end I just ended up using (asdf:component-pathname (reduce #'asdf:find-component '("data" "isotopes.xml") :initial-value (asdf:find-system "chemicl")))
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2014-08-21T16:48:24Z oGMo: yeah my asdf-path is similar
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2014-08-21T17:08:12Z shka: ave tux all!!!
2014-08-21T17:08:36Z shka: i'm looking for some good library that can process strings
2014-08-21T17:09:37Z shka: for instance i have string like a foo-separator-blablabla and have option to get just foo with the help of regexps
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2014-08-21T17:10:01Z shka: cliki lists few regular expressions libs but i don't know which one i should choose
2014-08-21T17:10:11Z dlowe: shka: cl-ppcre
2014-08-21T17:10:54Z Xach: shka: you can do a lot with the built-in features, too, if the needs are simpler than full regular expressions.
2014-08-21T17:11:14Z Xach: shka: for example, you could use POSITION to find the first #\- and SUBSEQ to extract everything before it.
2014-08-21T17:11:27Z Xach: but cl-ppcre is fantastic and useful
2014-08-21T17:11:35Z shka: Xach: actually it may be enough
2014-08-21T17:12:08Z shka: but does position works with sequences?
2014-08-21T17:12:14Z shka: well i can check
2014-08-21T17:13:20Z shka: Xach: i think i want to try ppcre anyway
2014-08-21T17:13:45Z antoszka: cl-ppcre is highly recommended
2014-08-21T17:13:47Z Xach: shka: position works with sequences, yes. and ppcre is worth using.
2014-08-21T17:14:12Z Xach: i tend to wrap it up for some purposes, because in some cases it returns vectors of positions and things like that.
2014-08-21T17:14:29Z antoszka: shka: you might want to have a look at split-sequence as well, but I find that with cl-ppcre I don't really get to use it
2014-08-21T17:14:45Z Xach: it provides some utility functions, but not every possible one for every possible purpose
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2014-08-21T17:16:25Z Xach: I think in Common Lisp the best approach is to know well what is provided, but don't be afraid to provide for yourself.
2014-08-21T17:16:37Z shka: oooh, ppcre is kinda feature rich
2014-08-21T17:16:43Z Xach: fast, too
2014-08-21T17:17:03Z shka: however, it could use some compact manual :D
2014-08-21T17:17:40Z Bicyclidine: i never had any trouble with weitz's docs
2014-08-21T17:18:23Z shka: well it contains examples
2014-08-21T17:18:31Z shka: and seems to be complete
2014-08-21T17:18:50Z shka: but i need a bit of time to parse it
2014-08-21T17:20:07Z shka: Xach: it seems to use reader macros?
2014-08-21T17:20:22Z Xach: shka: Not usually. cl-interpol can be used to add them.
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2014-08-21T17:23:03Z tokenrove: please excuse my ignorance of semi-recent progress, but is there now a curated CL library documentation solution?  is quickdocs blessed?  i noticed that the quicklisp "unofficial" documentation pops up first
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2014-08-21T17:24:21Z mood: tokenrove: Quickdocs is quite good, but I don't think it's
2014-08-21T17:24:26Z mood: ..."blessed"
2014-08-21T17:24:54Z Ralt: Xach: when is quicklisp getting out of beta? :P
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2014-08-21T17:25:14Z dim: he said once docs are up to speed, IIRC
2014-08-21T17:25:50Z tokenrove: i'd like to improve the documentation of some libraries i've contributed to in the past, but i'd like to do it in a way that is congruent with whatever direction the community is going in
2014-08-21T17:25:57Z dim: shka: consider split-sequence too
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2014-08-21T17:26:34Z dim: (split-sequence:split-sequence #\- "foo-separator-blablabla") ("foo" "separator" "blablabla")
2014-08-21T17:26:38Z dim: simple and to the point
2014-08-21T17:26:49Z dim: or even, (first (split-sequence:split-sequence #\- "foo-separator-blablabla")) "foo"
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2014-08-21T17:28:25Z dim: tokenrove: good luck with that, at ICL 4 different options to compile docs where talked about, 3 of them currently WIP
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2014-08-21T17:31:15Z tokenrove: do people still feel that python gets this right?
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2014-08-21T17:34:20Z Xach: quickdocs is pretty good
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2014-08-21T17:34:33Z Xach: Ralt: someday
2014-08-21T17:35:06Z dlowe: dim: I think I would still use (re:split "-" "foo-separator-blablabla")
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2014-08-21T17:37:47Z dim: well I like to avoid regexp each time it's possible, it makes it easier to maintain the code IMO
2014-08-21T17:38:17Z Shinmera: even for just a split?
2014-08-21T17:38:39Z dlowe: it's slower to compile, not to execute.
2014-08-21T17:38:59Z Shinmera: Last time I checked cl-ppcre's split was actually faster than split-sequence, at least on sbcl.
2014-08-21T17:39:10Z Shinmera: Should benchmark that properly some day though, so don't take my word for it now.
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2014-08-21T17:40:00Z JordiGH: I heard that the ILC '14 videos would be paywalled by the ACM. Real or malarkey?
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2014-08-21T17:45:18Z drmeister: beach: What objects are immediate objects in SICL?  Fixnums, characters - anything else?
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2014-08-21T17:49:10Z Xach: JordiGH: I haven't heard one way or another, but it seems plausible.
2014-08-21T17:49:43Z JordiGH: I don't get it, what service is the ACM providing? :-/
2014-08-21T17:50:01Z Xach: JordiGH: http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/298nrz/international_lisp_conference_2014_program/ciix6bl
2014-08-21T17:50:14Z Xach: JordiGH: credible bullet points on an academic CV
2014-08-21T17:50:46Z JordiGH: :-(
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2014-08-21T17:51:52Z wasamasa: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophallation
2014-08-21T17:51:58Z wasamasa: this is pretty appaling
2014-08-21T17:52:05Z wasamasa: oh damn
2014-08-21T17:52:09Z wasamasa: I thought I was on #emacs
2014-08-21T17:52:26Z Xach: I wonder if you missed an "e" or an "l"
2014-08-21T17:53:11Z wasamasa: an l of course
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2014-08-21T17:53:29Z Xach: Of course.
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2014-08-21T18:00:14Z JordiGH: Xach: I promised someone I wouldn't go to reddit. What does your url say?
2014-08-21T18:01:34Z jsnell: that sounds pretty insane
2014-08-21T18:04:25Z Xach: JordiGH: it says that the acm doesn't let people share videos of their affiliated conferences
2014-08-21T18:04:42Z Xach: JordiGH: it's from someone who i believe is on the board of the ALU, who put on ILC
2014-08-21T18:04:55Z Xach has not kept close track of board membership and might be wrong
2014-08-21T18:05:20Z JordiGH: This really sucks. Did the ACM even pay for the video equipment?
2014-08-21T18:05:34Z JordiGH: Or the tech who was recording?
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2014-08-21T18:06:14Z Xach: I dunno. I don't get the decision to affiliate with an ACM thing.
2014-08-21T18:06:52Z Xach: In my experience, the best part of the ILC is talking to people in person, not necessarily attending the talks. Just watching videos of presentations is something, but a poor substitute for being there.
2014-08-21T18:07:05Z Xach is still bummed he could not make it
2014-08-21T18:07:36Z tokenrove: JordiGH: is there a particular talk you're interested in?
2014-08-21T18:08:37Z JordiGH: tokenrove: Robert Smith's talks... Stefan's talk...
2014-08-21T18:08:46Z tokenrove: xach: especially since there wasn't much time to ask questions, the best part of this ILC was talking to the speakers during the breaks to get all the details, and you won't get that in the videos.
2014-08-21T18:09:58Z tokenrove: JordiGH: those were great talks, but you can probably get most of the details from them.  in the case of Robert Smith's talks, there's both interesting code he's released, and the associated papers.
2014-08-21T18:10:00Z Xach: tokenrove: that is a pity. the last one i went to was in reno and there was a good amount of time for Q&A
2014-08-21T18:11:37Z JordiGH: tokenrove: I was there, I want to show it to other people.
2014-08-21T18:11:43Z tokenrove: JordiGH: in the case of Stefan Monnier's talk, you could probably ask him for the slides.  you might actually get some details that weren't in the talk, since he ran short of time and cut one section (which was partially covered in the questions that followed).
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2014-08-21T18:13:07Z tokenrove: robert smith (quadresence?) had a nice little repl-based demo system for giving his talk; the code for that, and perhaps the examples he used, should be easy to get
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2014-08-21T18:18:31Z tokenrove: since you were there, you can get the material and then give the talk to your friends ;-)
2014-08-21T18:18:33Z akkad: is inspect the closest thing to pp?
2014-08-21T18:19:02Z akkad: much nicer than pp
2014-08-21T18:19:34Z JordiGH: tokenrove: I already did that, I was livechatting Monnier's talk in #emacs. I was hoping I could show people the actual video at some point.
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2014-08-21T18:40:17Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
2014-08-21T18:40:26Z oleo: sup beach!
2014-08-21T18:40:49Z beach: Hey oleo.  I haven't made it out of Montreal yet.  You?
2014-08-21T18:41:08Z oleo plays a "i'm back in town tell them girls...."
2014-08-21T18:41:09Z oleo: lol
2014-08-21T18:41:26Z beach: drmeister: Yes, only fixnums and characters.  And "unbound" for variables and slots, but that's not really an object.
2014-08-21T18:42:01Z beach: drmeister: Maybe some extensions could become immediates such as dates.
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2014-08-21T18:44:06Z Vivitron: akkad: I'm not familiar with pp but sometimes describe is easier than inspect
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2014-08-21T18:46:34Z drmeister: beach: I have done the same thing   Fixnums, characters, a smattering of special tagged pointers (nil, unbound, deleted, same-as-key) and a special tagged pointer to represent an activation frame on the stack.
2014-08-21T18:47:22Z rme: It looks like Emacs Lisp "pp" must be like CL "pprint".
2014-08-21T18:47:24Z drmeister: The "deleted" and "same-as-key" are special pointer values that are needed to support weak-key-hash-tables and weak-key-mappings.
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2014-08-21T18:50:13Z drmeister: I also differentiate between "nil" and NULL pointer values.    "nil" has the value 0x09.   NULL has the value 0x00.   This is so that I can use the C++ idiom:   if (type_foo x = y.asOrNull() )  which is a dynamic cast that returns NULL if it is unsuccessful and not-NULL if it is successful in which case it may return "nil" which must be different from NULL (phew).
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2014-08-21T18:51:31Z JordiGH: beach: Huh, you're still here?
2014-08-21T18:52:29Z drmeister: beach: I'm not really going anywhere with this, I was just reading your fast-dispatch paper and thought I would compare notes.  In the fast-dispatch paper do I understand correctly, you rewrite the discriminating function whenever classes change or new methods are added to a generic function?
2014-08-21T18:56:57Z beach: JordiGH: Yes, why?
2014-08-21T18:57:11Z JordiGH: beach: Nothing, I thought you were leaving earlier this week.
2014-08-21T18:57:21Z JordiGH: I do have the right beach, right? We had dinner together?
2014-08-21T18:57:26Z JordiGH: Couscous?
2014-08-21T18:57:50Z beach: JordiGH: Don't think so.
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2014-08-21T18:58:07Z JordiGH: Okay, I'm confused, sorry.
2014-08-21T18:58:20Z beach: drmeister: Yes, you understand correctly.
2014-08-21T18:58:44Z beach: JordiGH: What was the name of the person you had couscous with?
2014-08-21T18:58:52Z JordiGH: I actually forgot. :P
2014-08-21T18:58:55Z JordiGH: No, wait. Toby.
2014-08-21T18:58:55Z beach: heh!
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2014-08-21T18:59:37Z beach: JordiGH: Not me.  I am Robert Strandh.  Easy to remember if you know that "beach" in Swedish is "strand".
2014-08-21T19:00:27Z beach: drmeister: I do that so that objects that are out of date do not pass the discriminating function.
2014-08-21T19:01:00Z beach: drmeister: Why did you make NIL an immediate?
2014-08-21T19:01:04Z beach: It just messes things up.
2014-08-21T19:01:26Z drmeister: I'm not sure - does it mess things up?
2014-08-21T19:01:30Z drmeister: What does it mess up?
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2014-08-21T19:01:57Z beach: drmeister: Well, NIL is a symbol, so it ought to be a (tagged) pointer to a symbol object.
2014-08-21T19:03:17Z drmeister: Ah yes, now I remember, I made it an immediate because in C++ I often need to have pointers of different types be NIL.
2014-08-21T19:03:32Z beach: I see.
2014-08-21T19:04:25Z ggole: You could just rig symbol-name, symbolp etc to know about the special representation of nil.
2014-08-21T19:04:30Z ggole: Dunno whether that would be worth it.
2014-08-21T19:04:33Z drmeister: As a tagged immediate I can do:    Cons_sp x = _Nil();
2014-08-21T19:04:44Z drmeister: And x is NIL.
2014-08-21T19:05:39Z beach: A long time ago, it was thought that tests for NIL (end of list) were so common that it was good if it were immediate, but in fact, it is faster to traverse the list while the list is CONSP, which also catches dotted lists.
2014-08-21T19:07:17Z beach: ggole: It is "worth it" if it simplifies the code in the particular case that drmeister is referring to, but otherwise, I seriously doubt that it is advantageous.
2014-08-21T19:09:12Z shka: hmmm
2014-08-21T19:09:15Z ggole: That would be my guess too. My point was really that the implementor can do these things however they like.
2014-08-21T19:10:04Z beach: Yes, of course.  As long as it is not in violation with the CLHS.
2014-08-21T19:10:05Z shka: as it seems ppcre can fail with obscure error
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2014-08-21T19:12:59Z beach now thinks he has enough material to write a paper on the ":from-end t" design.  If so, he might submit it to ELS/ILC next year.
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2014-08-21T19:13:36Z mood: shka: What's the error you're getting?
2014-08-21T19:14:30Z shka: mood: package does not exist
2014-08-21T19:14:39Z shka: trying to find exact reason
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2014-08-21T19:16:00Z drmeister: Since I wrote this all in C++ I wanted to write functions that use C++ typing rather than make every variable T-type and have to check types by hand.
2014-08-21T19:16:07Z shka: mood: actually it is read-from-string thing
2014-08-21T19:16:33Z pessoa: but ANSI may be violated
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2014-08-21T19:24:26Z akkad: how does one exit Inspect>?
2014-08-21T19:24:42Z shka: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143456
2014-08-21T19:24:48Z shka: what is wrong with this code?
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2014-08-21T19:25:11Z ggole: q, I think
2014-08-21T19:25:17Z akkad: thanks
2014-08-21T19:25:25Z shka: somehow, if i fetch it with "foo->bar:baz" it will complain about lack of foo->bar package
2014-08-21T19:25:35Z shka: i can't understand why
2014-08-21T19:27:14Z beach: drmeister: I can see why.  But I don't see the consequences of it on the Lisp implementation.
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2014-08-21T19:30:11Z beach: shka: That sounds normal.  If you attempt to read from a string containing "foo->bar:baz" and you don't have a package named FOO->BAR, then the result you see is expected.
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2014-08-21T19:32:57Z shka: beach: right, thx
2014-08-21T19:34:24Z drmeister: beach: I don't know what the impact will be on the system either - it's a difficult thing to benchmark.   I'm about to make dynamic_cast very fast now that I've eliminated multiple-inheritance from my C++ hierarchy so my original reasons for avoiding lots of dynamic casting will become moot.
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2014-08-21T19:38:43Z shka: beach: but if i simply call (read-from-string (regex-replace  "^(.*?)->([^:]+):(.*?)\\(\\)$" "test->test:test()" "('\\1 '\\2 '-> '\\3)")) everything works
2014-08-21T19:40:10Z beach: shka: Sorry, debugging regular expressions is not my domain.
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2014-08-21T19:40:27Z shka: beach: it is the same regular expression
2014-08-21T19:40:37Z shka: beach: ok, have a good evening
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2014-08-21T19:44:06Z beach: shka: Not sure this is helpful, but you could write a wrapper function for READ-FROM-STRING and then trace that function to see what it attempts to read in the two cases, i.e. the case that works and the case that doesn't.
2014-08-21T19:45:13Z shka: beach: i actually found the problem
2014-08-21T19:45:24Z beach: Oh, good!
2014-08-21T19:45:31Z shka: beach: thanks for advice though, it is certainly good
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2014-08-21T19:51:22Z shka: btw, it is amazing how read-from-string can work with string operating functions
2014-08-21T19:51:52Z beach: shka: What do you mean?
2014-08-21T19:53:19Z shka: well, you can take any string, split it with cl-ppcre, move strings around, add some () and "" read-from-string and voila
2014-08-21T19:53:25Z shka: you have a proper list :D
2014-08-21T19:53:41Z beach: READ-FROM-STRING takes a string as an argument.  Whatever way that string is produced is acceptable.
2014-08-21T19:53:51Z shka: yes, yes
2014-08-21T19:54:00Z shka: i'm just fooling around
2014-08-21T19:54:13Z shka: it is just cool
2014-08-21T19:54:15Z rme: shka: I think what you are saying is "CL is cool."
2014-08-21T19:54:21Z beach: Exactly!
2014-08-21T19:54:32Z shka: rme: i would say... sexy
2014-08-21T19:54:59Z shka: because, it is just the way it should work
2014-08-21T19:55:09Z shka: the most logical way
2014-08-21T19:55:35Z oGMo: functions produce results you can use elsewhere... isn't that how it works most places?
2014-08-21T19:56:03Z shka: oGMo: i don't think that many other languages have read-from-string and repl
2014-08-21T19:56:22Z shka: you can't simply create data structure from printed represantation
2014-08-21T19:56:25Z oGMo: well, quite a few do actually
2014-08-21T19:56:31Z shka: really?
2014-08-21T19:56:45Z shka: ruby?
2014-08-21T19:56:49Z shka: maybe?
2014-08-21T19:57:09Z oGMo: most don't have readers, but eval is close enough
2014-08-21T19:57:24Z shka: ah, ok
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2014-08-21T19:57:33Z shka: still awesome
2014-08-21T19:57:41Z shka: good night all
2014-08-21T19:57:47Z shka: beach: thanks for good advice
2014-08-21T19:57:51Z oGMo: definitely
2014-08-21T19:57:53Z shka: i should use trace more often
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2014-08-21T19:59:36Z Xach: C-c C-t to toggle tracing is handy
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2014-08-21T20:14:51Z drmeister: Oh crap - oh crap - oh crap.   How do you MAPHASH over a hash-table when you have a compacting garbage collector and the function you are mapping with cause rehashing of the hash-table.
2014-08-21T20:15:18Z drmeister: Oh crap - oh crap - oh crap.   How do you MAPHASH over a hash-table when you have a compacting garbage collector and the function you are mapping with CAN cause rehashing of the hash-table.
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2014-08-21T20:15:24Z Xach: There are restrictions on what you can do when you're iterating over things like that, though.
2014-08-21T20:15:57Z Xach: http://l1sp.org/cl/3.6
2014-08-21T20:16:01Z drmeister: I don't think I can enforce any restrictions.
2014-08-21T20:16:20Z drmeister: Xach: Great - thank you.
2014-08-21T20:16:24Z Xach: Yeah, but if you can invoke the sacred 3.6 you are free of consequences
2014-08-21T20:16:31Z Xach: I don't know if it applies in this case
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2014-08-21T20:17:30Z jasom: Anyone know why cl-cont uses call/cc as the name for delimited continuations?  I'm more used to reset/shift
2014-08-21T20:18:48Z Bicyclidine: probably because they didn't know about delimited continuations when they did it. is cl-cont delimited continuations? i guess with-call/cc is reset, then, or what
2014-08-21T20:19:09Z jasom: Bicyclidine: with-call/cc is reset and let/cc is shift; it works 100% like those
2014-08-21T20:19:28Z Bicyclidine: that's cool to know!
2014-08-21T20:19:28Z jasom: and from the website: "cl-cont is a code walker that implements delimited continuations in Common Lisp."
2014-08-21T20:19:54Z jasom: (* 2 (with-call/cc (+ 1 (let/cc k (funcall k 5))))) => 12
2014-08-21T20:20:27Z jasom: and that's an example copied directly from the delimited continuation page on wikipedia with shift/reset changed to the cl-cont equivalent
2014-08-21T20:20:50Z Bicyclidine: i believe you, i just didn't know. i thought of cl-cont as "continuations but you need a wrapper macro"
2014-08-21T20:22:10Z Bicyclidine: well, actually, does it work if you let the continuation out of the with-call/cc's extent
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2014-08-21T20:23:53Z drmeister: How do other lisps handle MAPHASH with copying/compacting garbage collectors.  How do you prevent the #'EQ hash table from being rehashed while running MAPHASH over it?    Or do you generate a key/value pair list for the hash table and MAPHASH over that?   Or do you suspend the garbage collector during MAPHASH?
2014-08-21T20:24:07Z jasom: Bicyclidine: I'm pretty sure it works as expected for that case, my brain is having trouble coming up with an example at the moment
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2014-08-21T20:25:46Z jasom: (let (cont) (print (with-call/cc (+ 1 (let/cc k (setf cont k) (funcall k 5))))) (print (funcall cont 4))) <-- prints "6" and "5" if that's what you're talking about
2014-08-21T20:25:52Z whartung: why would a lisp bother to check for that drmeister? That's a contention problem resolved through external locks. You COULD code that in to MAPHASH, but seems like a edge case to me.
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2014-08-21T20:27:10Z jasom: drmeister: I think some implementations pin the keys in a hash-table while doing a maphash
2014-08-21T20:27:17Z jasom: but I could be wrong
2014-08-21T20:27:31Z drmeister: I think I'm running into it in my system.
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2014-08-21T20:28:26Z jasom: drmeister: easiest way would be to generate a vector of keys at the beginning of a maphash; if you pre-allocate the vector, then you won't gc when building the keys (assuming single-threaded code for now)
2014-08-21T20:28:45Z jasom: drmeister: that's obviously suboptimal from a performance point of view though.
2014-08-21T20:30:03Z drmeister: When I compile and generate load-time-values for complex lists/trees generate code to recreate the list/tree.   That code generates a hash table that hashes every intermediate result.  I then MAPHASH over the hash table to write out the code.  Chunks of code are missing when I run it under MPS vs BOEHM.   MPS has missing chunks, BOEHM is fine.  I think the MPS version is rehashing the hash-table as MAPHASH is running and so the MAPHASH oper
2014-08-21T20:30:03Z drmeister: ation gets screwed up.
2014-08-21T20:30:36Z drmeister: jasom: Pin the keys - that would work.
2014-08-21T20:30:48Z whartung: is the contention that hash tables are being rehashed by the GC?
2014-08-21T20:31:12Z drmeister: whartung: I believe so.
2014-08-21T20:31:28Z jasom: whartung: under the case where eq hash-tables are implemented via hashing the pointer, that would make sense for a copying gc
2014-08-21T20:31:44Z drmeister: When I turn on logging to get insight the problem goes away (sigh).
2014-08-21T20:32:11Z drmeister: Hang on- I don't need full logging, just a message at the start/end of MAPHASH and a message when rehashing takes place.
2014-08-21T20:33:03Z drmeister: I just want something to work tonight - I'll check with the MPS guys tomorrow to see if they have any recommendations.
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2014-08-21T20:35:59Z jasom: drmeister: then just preallocate a vector and fill it with the keys
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2014-08-21T20:36:58Z drmeister: I'd have to preallocate the vector on the stack to pin the keys.   If I allocate it on the heap it won't pin anything.   I could preallocate a vector on the heap and fill it with the keys and values.
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2014-08-21T20:38:11Z drmeister: I could use alloca to allocate them on the stack.   This preallocation bizniz doesn't smell right.
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2014-08-21T20:39:14Z jasom: drmeister: no, preallocate the vector and fill it with keys
2014-08-21T20:39:21Z jasom: then do a hash-lookup
2014-08-21T20:39:41Z drmeister: That's going to be really slow for maphash won't it?
2014-08-21T20:39:48Z jasom: yup
2014-08-21T20:39:55Z jasom: but you "just want something that works tonight"
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2014-08-21T20:44:04Z drmeister: Oh - hang on a bit.   MPS has mps_arena_clamp and mps_arena_release functions.   mps_arena_clamp says: "In the clamped state, no object motion will occur and the staleness of location dependencies will not change."  I think the easiest thing is to wrap my code in that.
2014-08-21T20:44:42Z Bicyclidine: that's basically a without-gcing wrap, iirc
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2014-08-21T20:47:04Z drmeister: Does the "We are running without locking or WITHOUT-GCING." comment in SBCL mean they are running maphash "without WITHOUT-GCING" - a double negative?
2014-08-21T20:47:39Z drmeister: That's how I read it.
2014-08-21T20:48:05Z drmeister: What does a without-gcing wrap look like in sbcl - hang on - using the google.
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2014-08-21T20:48:52Z drmeister: Oh - so its a macro:  (without-gcing ... do your worst ...)
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2014-08-21T20:50:17Z oleo: delays gc'ing
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2014-08-21T20:50:30Z oleo: supresses it
2014-08-21T20:50:51Z oleo: to what granulity level ?
2014-08-21T20:50:56Z oleo: umm
2014-08-21T20:51:07Z drmeister: I wonder if the difference is how SBCL implements the hash-table.   They appear to use a single key-value vector.   I use a vector/alist ribcage structure.
2014-08-21T20:52:03Z drmeister: Nope, I still don't see how they avoid this problem.
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2014-08-21T20:58:50Z drmeister: It's a puzzler.   I'll see what the MPS folks say about it tomorrow.
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2014-08-21T21:01:01Z Ober: first pass on porting elisp. any feedback appreciated https://github.com/ober/lighthouse-cl
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2014-08-21T21:02:42Z akkad: looks like a full rewrite. :P
2014-08-21T21:02:45Z drmeister: Yup, definitely rehashing the hash-table in the middle of a maphash.
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2014-08-21T21:02:54Z drmeister tries to say that five times really fast.
2014-08-21T21:03:13Z oleo: new tongue-breaker!
2014-08-21T21:03:15Z oleo: lol
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2014-08-21T21:03:39Z Ober: is there rehashing?
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2014-08-21T21:04:32Z akkad: Ober: there has to be a cleaner way to get to those elements
2014-08-21T21:05:03Z Ober: akkad: any suggestions?
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2014-08-21T21:07:05Z Ober: yeah hash tables of hash tables are interesting.
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2014-08-21T21:11:46Z akkad: instead of setting them all, try moving it to it's own function on key
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2014-08-21T21:14:06Z Fare changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language   logs:|contact op if muted| New: cl-launch 4.1, SBCL 1.2.2, ASDF 3.1.3, yason 0.6.6, hunchentoot 1.2.27
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2014-08-21T21:23:46Z Fare: https://github.com/Dobiasd/programming-language-subreddits-and-their-choice-of-words#happiness
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2014-08-21T22:23:54Z AeroNotix: What do you call #'this-syntax?
2014-08-21T22:24:52Z Bike: dunno if there's a name for it. function syntax or something.
2014-08-21T22:25:00Z oGMo: function quoting?
2014-08-21T22:25:06Z AeroNotix: oGMo: this sounds good
2014-08-21T22:25:25Z antoszka: clhs sharp-quote
2014-08-21T22:25:26Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for sharp-quote.
2014-08-21T22:25:32Z Shinmera: function dispatch reader macro character syntax :^)
2014-08-21T22:25:36Z oGMo: but usually i read it as "the function this-syntax"
2014-08-21T22:27:00Z antoszka: AeroNotix: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhb.htm
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2014-08-21T22:27:23Z oGMo: (not to be confused with (the function ...) of course ;)
2014-08-21T22:27:34Z AeroNotix: antoszka: sharp-sign-single-quote, catchy
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2014-08-21T22:28:00Z antoszka: AeroNotix: have a look at the other sharp-signs in CLHS, too :)
2014-08-21T22:28:09Z AeroNotix: antoszka: will do
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2014-08-21T22:38:54Z drmeister: What are the downsides to having NIL be an immediate value?
2014-08-21T22:39:22Z rme: you burn a tag on it?
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2014-08-21T22:40:07Z jasom: rme: you might not even burn a tag on it if you make it look like an address
2014-08-21T22:40:21Z drmeister: Yeah, although I have a bunch of special tagged pointer values UNBOUND, DELETED, SAME-AS-KEY, NIL so the tag is amortized.
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2014-08-21T22:41:53Z drmeister: The way Beach made it sound I would have lost a letter grade for my immediate value NIL had I been in his class.
2014-08-21T22:42:11Z drmeister: I would have gotten an "A minus Minus"
2014-08-21T22:42:53Z drmeister is just fooling - he respects beach deeply.
2014-08-21T22:43:28Z drmeister: But seriously, it's a pretty fundamental design choice.  If there was a really bad downside I might have to reconsider it.
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2014-08-21T22:44:43Z drmeister: I wanted to use C++ types and since most variables have a value of a specific type or NIL it made sense to make NIL an immediate value.
2014-08-21T22:44:45Z jsnell: if your nil isn't a pointer to some nicely arranged memory, every car and cons will involve a cons vs. nill dispatch
2014-08-21T22:44:50Z rme: http://ccl.clozure.com/ccl-documentation.html#Tagging-scheme might (or might not) be interesting
2014-08-21T22:45:16Z drmeister: jsnell: And they do.
2014-08-21T22:45:32Z drmeister: So yes, that is a downside.
2014-08-21T22:46:40Z drmeister: But wouldn't it anyway?   What would NIL usually be?   It's an instance of NULL
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2014-08-21T22:48:49Z drmeister: If it's a pointer to some nicely arranged memory - what would that memory look like?   A (cons NIL NIL) ?
2014-08-21T22:51:04Z jsnell: yes, that's probably the case you'd want to optimize for (rather than the symbolness of NIL)
2014-08-21T22:51:16Z rme: drmeister: The link I cited talks about that.
2014-08-21T22:52:04Z drmeister: rme: Thanks - I'm looking at it.
2014-08-21T22:52:59Z drmeister: That problem I had before with #'EQ hash-tables and rehashing during maphash?   I totally nailed it!  Once I suppressed the GC around maphash everything worked.
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2014-08-21T22:53:28Z drmeister: I now have a minimal (no CLOS) Common Lisp running using the Memory Pool System compacting garbage collector.
2014-08-21T22:54:08Z drmeister: Let's see if it will compile the full system.
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2014-08-21T22:55:37Z kristof: See you in 12 hours
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2014-08-21T22:56:20Z whartung: so isn't there some risk of running out of (gc-able) memory during maphash? or do you simply document that "consing during maphash may be bad for your health"?
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2014-08-21T22:57:25Z brucem: drmeister: good luck!
2014-08-21T22:57:48Z drmeister: whartung: It might - I'll check with the MPS guys tomorrow as to whether there is a better approach.  This is the GC used by OpenDylan and at least one other large system.  This must have come up before.
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2014-08-21T22:58:33Z whartung: yea I just don't lknow how popular a #'EQ map is outside of CL
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2014-08-21T22:58:54Z drmeister: brucem: I was just thinking of you.   How does Dylan handle maphash and #'EQ hash-tables?  I ran into a problem where during a maphash some location dependencies went stale and the hash-table I was maphash-ing over was rehashed in the middle of the maphash and all heck broke loose.
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2014-08-21T22:59:36Z brucem: drmeister: hmm...
2014-08-21T22:59:56Z whartung: deep in the flaming bowels of heck...
2014-08-21T23:00:08Z drmeister: And what the heck are you doing up you nut?
2014-08-21T23:00:24Z drmeister is a bit punchy from lack of sleep.
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2014-08-21T23:06:38Z brucem: drmeister: It is just 6am ... I have a conference call with my client at 7am ... so woke up to deal with some stuff in advance of that.
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2014-08-21T23:06:50Z brucem: drmeister: I'm looking at our table hashing code ... but I don't know the answer.
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2014-08-21T23:07:50Z drmeister: I wrapped maphash in a top-level mps_arena_clamp/mps_arena_release - that seems to have done the trick.
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2014-08-21T23:08:39Z drmeister: SBCL doesn't seem to worry about it at all and I don't know anywhere else to get info until DL wakes up.
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2014-08-21T23:08:51Z jsnell: not worry about it at all is incorrect :-)
2014-08-21T23:09:06Z drmeister: This is end-game for me with MPS - after months and months of work I think I've finally cracked this nut.
2014-08-21T23:09:48Z jsnell: it's just that the worry has resulted in a design where rehashing an eq hashtable doesn't involve moving the elements of the backing vector around
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2014-08-21T23:10:20Z jsnell: so even if there's a gc, all elements will be visited by the iterator exactly once
2014-08-21T23:10:35Z jasom: I just had to increase *inline-expansion-limit* to get a function to compile silently; that's a little frightening
2014-08-21T23:10:39Z drmeister: I think the clinical term is "monomania".
2014-08-21T23:10:49Z brucem: drmeister: it looks like we lock on the table vector, so aren't re-entrant.
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2014-08-21T23:12:35Z drmeister: BBL battery is running down
2014-08-21T23:12:39Z brucem: drmeister: but not sure if https://github.com/dylan-lang/opendylan/blob/master/sources/dylan/table.dylan#L819 is hte right entry point to look at.
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2014-08-21T23:22:25Z drmeister: "lock on the table vector" - what does that mean in terms of the MPS?
2014-08-21T23:23:18Z drmeister: Don't worry, I'll catch up with you later since you've got stuff going on.
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2014-08-21T23:34:04Z jasom: why would sbcl highlight just the quoted tag in a throw statement?
2014-08-21T23:34:23Z jasom: and warn that it is deleting unreachable code
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2014-08-21T23:35:26Z jasom: nevermind, just a minor bug in a code-walker
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2014-08-21T23:42:47Z drmeister: D*mmit - my computer locked up while linking the full Common Lisp system.  Could be because I hadn't shut my laptop down in months or it could be that the universe simply won't allow me to finish this d*mn thing.
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2014-08-21T23:43:02Z kristof: The latter is likely.
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2014-08-21T23:43:11Z jasom: someone was asking about cl-cont as a shift/reset; here's an example converted from an ocaml delimited control example:
2014-08-21T23:43:18Z drmeister: Momma, don' let your babies grow up to be programmers.
2014-08-21T23:43:23Z jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/+32P4
2014-08-21T23:44:26Z jasom: there is an implicit with/cc barrier at any call from a regular defun to a defun/cc
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2014-08-21T23:44:57Z jasom: which is why run has no with/cc in it (whereas the ocaml example had the shift_prompt)
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2014-08-21T23:48:31Z beach: drmeister: Having NIL be an immediate introduces a special case, so you need to test for that special case everywhere.
2014-08-21T23:48:57Z jasom: beach: just car and cdr, right?
2014-08-21T23:49:06Z beach: drmeister: For example, in SYMBOL-NAME, SYMBOL-VALUE, ...
2014-08-21T23:49:17Z jasom: oh all the symbol functions too
2014-08-21T23:49:22Z beach: Yes.
2014-08-21T23:49:37Z drmeister: What would a proper NIL point to?
2014-08-21T23:49:49Z jasom: drmeister: an object of type NULL
2014-08-21T23:49:53Z beach: A data structure representing a symbol.
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2014-08-21T23:51:30Z drmeister: So CAR would have to test for NIL?
2014-08-21T23:51:37Z beach: Yes.
2014-08-21T23:51:38Z jasom: drmeister: it has to anyway
2014-08-21T23:51:56Z jasom: drmeister: since nil is not a CONS
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2014-08-21T23:52:32Z beach: CAR is basically (if (null x) nil (cons-car x)) where CONS-CAR assumes x is a CONS.
2014-08-21T23:53:43Z drmeister: So it's in SYMBOL-VALUE and SYMBOL-FUNCTION that you want to avoid testing for NIL?
2014-08-21T23:54:20Z beach: There are plenty more cases.
2014-08-21T23:54:35Z beach: ... but I can't think of any right now.
2014-08-21T23:54:39Z pjb: But again, you can make it so that (cons nil nil) and nil are about the same.
2014-08-21T23:55:26Z pjb: For example, (symbol-value nil) = nil and (symbol-function nil) = nil, so if you store the value and function in the first two slots of symbols, you already have the same bit pattern for conses as for the beginning of symbols.
2014-08-21T23:55:38Z drmeister: And in my case the alternative is all C++ functions take T_sp (a tagged pointer to a T object) for all arguments and all variables in all functions are T_sp type.
2014-08-21T23:56:51Z beach: pjb: Are you sure that (symbol-function nil) is nil?
2014-08-21T23:57:30Z beach: pjb: Even if that is the case, you need to test that the symbol is really NIL, so you don't gain anything from that.
2014-08-21T23:57:51Z pjb: the implementer can ensure it.
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2014-08-21T23:58:28Z beach: pjb: I mean, if someone says (CAR X), then you still have to test that X is NIL if X is a symbol, so there is nothing gained.
2014-08-21T23:58:59Z pjb: But yes, I guess that doesn't help, since we still want to check the type tags.  In old LISP, they didn't care and could take the car and cdr of symbols.
2014-08-21T23:59:13Z beach: Right.  No longer.
2014-08-21T23:59:37Z drmeister: Clasp just booted to the full Common Lisp REPL using the MPS garbage collector.
2014-08-21T23:59:44Z kristof: Yaaay!
2014-08-21T23:59:53Z beach: drmeister: Congratulations!
2014-08-22T00:00:12Z kristof: drmeister: why did you yank out CLOS?
2014-08-22T00:02:09Z drmeister: kristof: I compile in two stages.   I compile a minimal Common Lisp that includes a lot of basic CL functionality and the compiler.   Then I use that to compile the full version which includes CLOS.
2014-08-22T00:02:34Z kristof: Ah, ok
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2014-08-22T00:02:50Z drmeister: The first stage is compiled using a very slow S-expression walking interpreter.  The second stage is compiled by the compiled compiler.   It's so meta.
2014-08-22T00:03:59Z drmeister: I can't use existing Lisp implementations to compile mine because they don't interoperate with C++ and cannot expose the LLVM library.
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2014-08-22T00:04:44Z kristof: Right, right.
2014-08-22T00:05:04Z jasom: drmeister: how long does the build take now?
2014-08-22T00:05:56Z drmeister: Now I can compare the Boehm GC to the MPS GC using compiled code.    Although the MPS is incomparable because MPS compacts memory while Boehm fragments it.
2014-08-22T00:06:18Z drmeister: I'm running them side-by-side right now.
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2014-08-22T00:13:12Z drmeister: MPS still needs some refinement - it's spending 30% of its time in mmap
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2014-08-22T00:14:51Z drmeister: Does running Instruments (profiler on OS X) slow down the program it's profiling?
2014-08-22T00:15:26Z drmeister: This may not be the appropriate group for the question.
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2014-08-22T00:21:30Z drmeister: With the Boehm GC (non-incremental) compiling the full Common Lisp system takes 15 minutes.
2014-08-22T00:22:41Z drmeister: MPS (incremental, untuned) is just finishing up.
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2014-08-22T00:27:10Z drmeister: MPS version 22 minutes
2014-08-22T00:28:08Z drmeister: I'm not sure if its fair to compare Boehm non-incremental to MPS which is incremental.
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2014-08-22T00:33:12Z slyrus: drmeister: can clasp cross-compile SBCL?
2014-08-22T00:33:49Z drmeister: slyrus: I would bet "no" at this point.
2014-08-22T00:34:16Z slyrus: ok. nice achievement though!
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2014-08-22T00:59:25Z drmeister: slyrus: Thank you!
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2014-08-22T01:10:45Z xos: we are looking for developers again, as per http://lispjobs.wordpress.com/2012/07/13/common-lisp-programmer-accenture-interactive-adelaide-south-australia/
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2014-08-22T01:41:18Z pillton: Horay Adelaide!
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2014-08-22T01:54:54Z xos: pillton: ideally it is Adelaide, but we are looking at remote as option
2014-08-22T01:55:32Z pillton: xos: I am in Brisbane. I was just excited to see Australia.
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2014-08-22T02:00:20Z xos: pillton: just 2 hours flight - similar to average Sydney commute
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2014-08-22T02:11:15Z Xach: australia is tops.
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2014-08-22T02:12:26Z didi: Is there an idiom to iterate over a plist?
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2014-08-22T02:15:46Z Xach: didi: (loop for (key value) on plist by #'cddr ...)
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2014-08-22T02:15:57Z pillton: didi: Alexandria has DOPLIST
2014-08-22T02:16:05Z Xach: that is for creating a dop list.
2014-08-22T02:16:12Z Xach: sorry, that is a lie.
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2014-08-22T02:16:33Z didi: Ah. "on"
2014-08-22T02:16:41Z didi: Nice, thank you Xach.
2014-08-22T02:17:00Z didi: pillton: Thanks for the pointer.
2014-08-22T02:17:19Z Xach: no problem
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2014-08-22T06:10:40Z Clarice: I wish there was something like a dynamic extent block.
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2014-08-22T06:11:49Z Clarice: Not catch! I need it to compile down to a jump, and constructing tags, throwing, and dismantling catch points seems like a lot of work when really I want a GOTO.
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2014-08-22T06:14:09Z H4ns: you're not looking for tagbody/go?
2014-08-22T06:14:21Z Clarice: H4ns: that's lexical.
2014-08-22T06:14:25Z H4ns: right.
2014-08-22T06:14:44Z H4ns: so you want a goto from a callee to a caller?
2014-08-22T06:14:52Z Clarice: Yup!
2014-08-22T06:15:16Z Clarice: Oh
2014-08-22T06:15:17Z |3b|: pass a closure over a go tag?
2014-08-22T06:15:18Z Clarice: OH
2014-08-22T06:15:32Z H4ns: well, in that case, you can't "compile down to a jump".
2014-08-22T06:15:40Z Clarice: Tco means I don't have to worry about this, right?
2014-08-22T06:15:42Z |3b|: still will get lots of extra work compared to a jump though
2014-08-22T06:15:57Z |3b|: has to worry about unwind protects, unbinding specials, etc either way
2014-08-22T06:16:07Z H4ns: tco means that tail calls get converted to jumps.
2014-08-22T06:16:13Z Clarice: Yes
2014-08-22T06:16:52Z Clarice: Background: I've got a scheduler function that takes a thunk and evaluates it
2014-08-22T06:17:24Z Clarice: Right now I'm suspending thunks by throwing a sched tag
2014-08-22T06:21:30Z Clarice: Yeah, I could actually just call the scheduling function in a tail call, and that would be fine
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2014-08-22T06:32:02Z Clarice: If I bind some special variables and the old bindings are never going to be used again, do the old special bindings get garbage collected, even if I'm still in the scope of more recent bindings?
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2014-08-22T06:34:11Z H4ns: it does not matter if they are used, just if they are referenced.  if there are no stack frames which refer to the objects, they can be collected.
2014-08-22T06:34:16Z ggole: No, since they're still reachable once you leave the scope of that binding.
2014-08-22T06:34:31Z Clarice: ...that's unfortunate.
2014-08-22T06:34:47Z |3b|: yeah, can't expect compiler to solve halting problem to determine you will never return from that scope or whatever
2014-08-22T06:35:08Z |3b|: just assign to it if you don't want to keep the old bindings
2014-08-22T06:35:08Z ggole: If the values aren't going to be used again, you could just use setq
2014-08-22T06:35:29Z |3b|: *don't want to keep the old values
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2014-08-22T06:41:48Z Clarice: Neither setq nor special variables should be used anyway in the context of concurrency
2014-08-22T06:42:46Z Clarice: Special variables are a nightmare because every proc has to store an alist of bindings that are used during every scheduling of the proc
2014-08-22T06:43:59Z Clarice: Oh, you can't even statically determine which variables are special and which aren't, can you?
2014-08-22T06:44:05Z zRecursive: then avoid using special variables
2014-08-22T06:44:50Z zRecursive: as global variables in C
2014-08-22T06:45:04Z Clarice: Right.
2014-08-22T06:45:32Z ggole: The implementation has to know which variables are lexical and which special
2014-08-22T06:45:52Z |3b| suspects you want clojure or something, if you don't want setq
2014-08-22T06:45:59Z Zhivago: You can statically determine it by looking at the declarations.
2014-08-22T06:46:55Z pessoa: may progv and eval be used with concurrency?
2014-08-22T06:47:07Z |3b|: and nothing requires an alist of bindings for specials
2014-08-22T06:47:20Z ggole: And I dunno what this stuff about alists is about
2014-08-22T06:47:31Z Clarice: Oh, uh, about that
2014-08-22T06:47:35Z |3b|: pessoa: you can use anything, as long as you know how it interacts and whether you need to add your own locking
2014-08-22T06:47:40Z ggole: Implementations can do whatever clever junk they want to make specials fast(ish)
2014-08-22T06:48:08Z ggole: |3b|: stop reading my mind -_-
2014-08-22T06:48:12Z |3b|: and CL spec doesn't describe any 'concurrency', so it is implementation dependent
2014-08-22T06:48:34Z Clarice: ggole: this code runs on potentially any thread, so to avoid the perils of setting a var in one tls and not seeing it in another, SOMETHING has to be passed around
2014-08-22T06:49:05Z Clarice: This is how clojure does it.
2014-08-22T06:49:26Z ggole: In that case, pass a thing around?
2014-08-22T06:49:47Z Zhivago: Just have symbol-value dispatch on the thread id.
2014-08-22T06:49:58Z Clarice: Yeaaaah, but I'd rather not, and just tell people to avoid dynamic binding
2014-08-22T06:50:22Z Clarice: ggole: because that thing has to be constructed after code-walking.
2014-08-22T06:50:26Z ggole: Special variables are usually thread-local.
2014-08-22T06:50:30Z Zhivago:  What problem are you trying to solve?
2014-08-22T06:51:09Z Clarice: Zhivago: so you know how in clojure, dynamically binding a variable in one goroutine just works and doesn't mess with other goroutines?
2014-08-22T06:52:07Z ggole: Clarice: so you're doing fine-grained concurrency with your own M/N scheduler?
2014-08-22T06:52:11Z ggole: Now I understand.
2014-08-22T06:52:47Z Clarice: ggole: I don't know what fine grained means in this context but no; it's actually Lparallel's scheduler!
2014-08-22T06:52:55Z Zhivago: Well, like I said, have symbol-value dispatch by goroutine.
2014-08-22T06:54:02Z ggole: Fine grained as in small, numerous specialised structures instead of OS threads
2014-08-22T06:54:11Z ggole: Not the best choice of term, I suppose.
2014-08-22T06:54:32Z Clarice: ggole: ah, then yes
2014-08-22T06:55:33Z Clarice: Zhivago: not sure what you mean by that. Multiple symbols can be rebound plenty of times in a single goroutine.
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2014-08-22T06:56:30Z Clarice: Anyway, this is already a solved problem with the alist of bindings I was talking about. It's just a pain to write :P
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2014-08-22T06:58:34Z Zhivago: clarice: What does rebinding have to do with it?
2014-08-22T06:58:54Z Zhivago: If the meaning of symbol-value depends on the current goroutine, then the problem disappears.
2014-08-22T06:59:39Z Clarice: How would I fix symbol-value to work that way? Shadowing?
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2014-08-22T07:02:35Z Zhivago: Well, the easiest way would be to either rewrite the code automatically or get an implementation that does it.
2014-08-22T07:02:41Z Zhivago: Do you control the implementation?
2014-08-22T07:03:05Z Clarice: Nope, relying on SBCL specific features.
2014-08-22T07:03:47Z Zhivago: Ok, then SBCL already does that, based on the thread-id.
2014-08-22T07:04:25Z ggole: If you controlled the implementation you could just establish a thread-local base pointer upon scheduling (much like existing implementations do for "native" threads)
2014-08-22T07:05:04Z ggole: Doing it in Lisp seems tough if not impossible.
2014-08-22T07:05:14Z Clarice: Zhivago: as far as I can tell, the following scenario is possible:
2014-08-22T07:05:41Z ggole: Zhivago: that would imply that a given routine is only every scheduled on one thread, which Clarice has already indicated is not the case
2014-08-22T07:06:31Z Zhivago: It just means that you need some way to swap out the thread's specials when you schedule a routine.
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2014-08-22T07:06:39Z Clarice: Zhivago: Proc A assigns special var *a* to val a. Proc A getd scheduled out cooperatively and Proc B assigns *a* to b. Proc A gets scheduled back in and accidentally uses b instead of a when it reads *a* based on the tls.
2014-08-22T07:07:36Z ggole: Do implementations provide such a thing?
2014-08-22T07:07:44Z Clarice: What thing?
2014-08-22T07:07:56Z ggole: What Zhivago just mentioned
2014-08-22T07:08:39Z Clarice: The implementation knows nothing of the scheduler.
2014-08-22T07:10:01Z zRecursive: In such a situation, *a* should be locked by thread ?
2014-08-22T07:10:09Z Clarice: That "way to swap bindings" on scheduling is the alist of bindings associated with each proc. :) but then every scheduling has a performance impact because you unpack a list and iterate through it on every scheduling.
2014-08-22T07:10:29Z Adlai: is there a way to "detach" an inferior-lisp so that it will survive a crash of the emacs instance that started it?
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2014-08-22T07:12:18Z Zhivago: sbcl has special support, iirc.
2014-08-22T07:12:48Z Clarice: Only for threads
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2014-08-22T07:15:32Z ggole: Adlai: hmm, you could start the lisp separately and connect to it as if it were remote
2014-08-22T07:16:14Z Adlai: that solves my general problem, but means that i lose the currently running image
2014-08-22T07:16:43Z Adlai: too much of my teardown/restore flow is manual
2014-08-22T07:16:44Z Clarice: Save lisp and die
2014-08-22T07:16:55Z Clarice: And then do what ggole says
2014-08-22T07:17:03Z Adlai: hmm
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2014-08-22T07:17:21Z H4ns: you can't save lisp and die from within slime.
2014-08-22T07:17:25Z H4ns: :D
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2014-08-22T07:17:31Z Clarice: Lame
2014-08-22T07:17:42Z Clarice: Can you dump an image and not die?
2014-08-22T07:17:59Z H4ns: Clarice: nope.  but you can fork and then save-lisp-and-die in the child.
2014-08-22T07:18:11Z Clarice: Woah-ho! We have found our solution.
2014-08-22T07:18:22Z H4ns: Clarice: provided that you manage any running threads properly, which is also the challenge with directly saving an image from slime.
2014-08-22T07:18:59Z Clarice: I assume someone who wants to save a state has no running threads
2014-08-22T07:19:00Z H4ns: Clarice: in general, you use a build script to create your images, and you start your lisp external to emacs if you want to quit emacs.  it is part of the planning process to do the right thing :)
2014-08-22T07:19:06Z Clarice: Besides the main repl
2014-08-22T07:19:25Z Clarice: Right, true that
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2014-08-22T07:38:08Z dim: Adlai: then now is when to automate your teardown/restore process
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2014-08-22T07:49:00Z Adlai: dim: one little step at a time... a good candidate for the first one is teaching the startup to distinguish when there's leftover state from a previous instance
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2014-08-22T07:51:44Z dim: another way is to prepare a self-contained binary (save-lisp-and-die) with buildapp, in which you have a command line option --swank 123456 so that you can then connect slime to your won application
2014-08-22T07:51:55Z dim: reduced startup time, full slime control
2014-08-22T07:52:11Z dim: it's basically a more detailed view of what H4ns and Clarice just said
2014-08-22T07:52:40Z dim: or maybe that's how I did it last time I needed to, most likely following advice I got here ;-)
2014-08-22T07:53:09Z Adlai mumbles something about tough men and tender chickens
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2014-08-22T07:53:51Z dim is lost
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2014-08-22T07:58:43Z Adlai: https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/24460
2014-08-22T07:59:11Z Adlai: the answer explains it, but the linked article is also worth a read
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2014-08-22T08:21:55Z dim: oh, complex code for simple UI/UX, yeah
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2014-08-22T08:56:34Z AeroNotix: Do I need to do anything special when saving lisp images that have dependencies on cffi code?
2014-08-22T08:57:11Z |3b|: depends on the cffi code, but not using it before saving the image can be a good idea
2014-08-22T08:59:04Z |3b|: and depending on how predictable the location of any libraries it uses is, you may want to close the libs and reopen them by hand after loading the image
2014-08-22T08:59:26Z |3b|: (implementations can usually reload open libs that don't move though, so not usually a problem)
2014-08-22T09:01:47Z |3b|: if the cffi code does library initialization or allocates resources on its own you may need to configure or modify it to not do so
2014-08-22T09:02:33Z |3b|: or it might be good enough to just repeat the initialization/allocation after loading the image
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2014-08-22T09:08:52Z brucem: |3b|: do CL implementations tend to work with ASLR?
2014-08-22T09:09:31Z |3b|: not sure
2014-08-22T09:10:00Z |3b|: i think some want their own address space at specific locations at least
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2014-08-22T09:26:16Z dim: AeroNotix: in pgloader, here's how I do it: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/hooks.lisp (of course that all comes from here)
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2014-08-22T09:29:47Z |3b|: yeah, cl-opengl tries to handle it also, but i suspect most FFI libs don't (including most of the other ones i wrote)
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2014-08-22T09:30:30Z |3b|: ah, i guess you are handling it for a lib that doesn't :)
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2014-08-22T09:35:15Z AeroNotix: |3b|: which libs did you write?
2014-08-22T09:35:23Z AeroNotix: I'm specifically using cl-cffi-gtk
2014-08-22T09:35:27Z |3b|: https://github.com/3b
2014-08-22T09:35:42Z |3b| has no idea about cl-cffi-gtk
2014-08-22T09:36:06Z AeroNotix: |3b|: it's a reasonably well-implemented library. I presume they will have thought about this
2014-08-22T09:36:14Z AeroNotix: dim: TIL about *lisp-startup-functions*
2014-08-22T09:36:41Z |3b|: AeroNotix: note the #+ccl above it though
2014-08-22T09:37:01Z AeroNotix: derp it's still early for me
2014-08-22T09:37:40Z |3b|: most implementations have something similar, or you could do things by hand in whatever function runs your code on image start
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2014-08-22T09:39:05Z AeroNotix: |3b|: cool, will look into it
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2014-08-22T09:40:28Z dim: TIL?
2014-08-22T09:40:39Z |3b|: "today i learned"
2014-08-22T09:40:39Z AeroNotix: dim: Today I learned
2014-08-22T09:40:48Z dim: oh cool!
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2014-08-22T09:40:51Z AeroNotix: TYL
2014-08-22T09:40:53Z AeroNotix: :)
2014-08-22T09:40:59Z dim: hehe, yeah
2014-08-22T09:41:12Z dim: hopefully EIL (everyday)
2014-08-22T09:41:27Z AeroNotix: one would hope that is the case
2014-08-22T09:42:04Z AeroNotix: So why do you need to unload the library when an application is closing?
2014-08-22T09:43:08Z |3b|: implementations usually try to reload open libraries from the same place, while reopening it by hand might search
2014-08-22T09:43:22Z AeroNotix: hm ok
2014-08-22T09:43:37Z |3b|: also might clean up resources onunload, reducing risk of stale pointers causing problems
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2014-08-22T09:44:01Z AeroNotix: |3b|: but if this is an application and not a library, any neeD?
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2014-08-22T09:44:33Z |3b|: question is whether anything that would cause problems happened during the build process before you saved the image
2014-08-22T09:44:43Z |3b|: or if you were using the image before saving it
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2014-08-22T09:44:57Z AeroNotix: Right
2014-08-22T09:44:59Z AeroNotix: thanks
2014-08-22T09:45:17Z |3b| would say try it without doing anything special, and worry about it when it breaks
2014-08-22T09:45:34Z AeroNotix: ok
2014-08-22T09:45:38Z |3b|: (though possibly try it sooner than later if being able to ship binaries is important)
2014-08-22T09:45:39Z AeroNotix: sounds good to me
2014-08-22T09:45:58Z AeroNotix: Shipping binaries is not currently important, but I tried it, and I couldn't load the gtk libraries. Thought I'd ask
2014-08-22T09:46:01Z |3b|: if nothing else it gives time to file bugs and hope someone else fixes them before you need them :)
2014-08-22T09:46:15Z AeroNotix: Yeah I want to focus on the application right now any way
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2014-08-22T13:46:48Z Ven: erm, I'm looking for a pretty simple "pattern matching" function/library in CL. Something that'd just look like "(match lst (("foo" bind-var) (format t "I found ~a" bind-var)))" (checking car is "foo" and binding caar to bind-var)
2014-08-22T13:47:47Z Xach: Ven: i believe optima can do things like that.
2014-08-22T13:48:58Z Ven: Xach: looks like it can. Thanks!
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2014-08-22T13:49:31Z Xach: no problem
2014-08-22T13:49:48Z splittist: Ven: when I'm looking for things I often use quickdocs. A search like http://quickdocs.org/search?q=pattern shows a bunch, with Optima at the top.
2014-08-22T13:50:15Z Ven: splittist: noted. Just starting to write some CL, and I'm definitely in a big ocean :)
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2014-08-22T13:51:10Z splittist: Ven: sure. And sometimes it's a matter of adjusting to the terminology. There might be a bunch of things that do foo, but you've always known it under the name quux. It can be frustrating (:
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2014-08-22T13:58:53Z hitecnologys: I'm not exactly familiar with Ubuntu software distribution model but is there any way to make it use latest SBCL without moving all the system to testing?
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2014-08-22T14:04:26Z Xach: Use dlowe's repo
2014-08-22T14:06:00Z hitecnologys: Can you give me a link?
2014-08-22T14:08:26Z dlowe: cough
2014-08-22T14:08:40Z dlowe: Xach is giving me some good-natured shaming there.
2014-08-22T14:08:41Z Xach: Sorry, it is a bad joke. dlowe once considered doing such a thing and i have hounded him since.
2014-08-22T14:08:54Z Xach: I am generous in volunteering the time of others
2014-08-22T14:09:06Z hitecnologys: Oh, I see.
2014-08-22T14:09:17Z dlowe: I hadn't forgotten. sigh
2014-08-22T14:09:19Z Xach: I think it would be a fine thing for someone to do for me
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2014-08-22T14:09:30Z hitecnologys: If I were dlowe, I'd say it's a good one.
2014-08-22T14:10:14Z Cymew: git pull works excellent to get a new fresh sbcl! ;)
2014-08-22T14:10:51Z Cymew: Seriously, isn't the sbcl package for Ubuntu fairly new?
2014-08-22T14:10:53Z hitecnologys: Cymew: yeah, that's what I'm doing now. But having it managed via apt would be much better.
2014-08-22T14:11:13Z hitecnologys: Cymew: no. Stable is somewhat close to 1.0.55.
2014-08-22T14:11:40Z hitecnologys: Cymew: yes, it's 1.0.55.0.
2014-08-22T14:11:43Z Cymew: Really? It used to be better when I used ubuntu.
2014-08-22T14:11:57Z Cymew: Well, I ran kubuntu so maybe it's different
2014-08-22T14:12:38Z Cymew: Who's the maintainer? In Fedora I've had great success just emailing the maintainmer asking of there's a new build on its way.
2014-08-22T14:12:58Z Cymew: ...and suddenly there is! :)
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2014-08-22T14:13:54Z Shaftoe___: hello!
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2014-08-22T14:14:00Z Cymew: 1.1.12 is the newest version available for Fedora, btw
2014-08-22T14:14:11Z Shaftoe___: anyone here have success building and installing c2ffi on osx 10.9?
2014-08-22T14:14:12Z hitecnologys: I'm Gentoo user so I have no idea who's maintainer and how to report correctly. I'm too lazy to figure that out.
2014-08-22T14:14:14Z pessoa: stable debian is certainy nowhere near new
2014-08-22T14:15:22Z tokenrove: hitecnologys: i'm not sure on the mechanism, since i do it rarely (and it debian, not ubuntu), but there is a way to configure apt to know about testing/unstable/experimental without pulling packages from there except explicitly.  then you can apt-get install sbcl/unstable and get something relatively recent.  you might get burned on libc though.
2014-08-22T14:16:03Z Shaftoe___: I'm getting a build error on branch 3.4
2014-08-22T14:16:08Z tokenrove: hitecnologys: try https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PinningHowto for example
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2014-08-22T14:26:59Z Aranshada|W: Silly me. I learned my problems with Slime keybinds not working correctly were caused by trying to write throwaway code in the *Scratch* buffer and Slime never actually fully kicked in, so it also had all sorts of trouble trying to eval expressions in the buffer. :)
2014-08-22T14:27:26Z Aranshada|W: Actually saved it out to a .lisp file and everything worked perfectly.
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2014-08-22T14:28:23Z |3b|: yeah, *scratch* is for elisp not CL, M-x slime-scratch after starting slime for a CL version
2014-08-22T14:28:51Z |3b| usually just uses a file anyway though, always end up wanting something i forgot to save out of scratch buffers after restarting :/
2014-08-22T14:28:58Z Aranshada|W: Ah, so I can write Lisp with slime in the scratch buffer.
2014-08-22T14:29:00Z Aranshada|W: Thanks for the tip!
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2014-08-22T14:29:31Z |3b|: in a scratch buffer, it makes a *slime-scratch* for CL, while *scratch* stays elisp
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2014-08-22T14:30:18Z hitecnologys: tokenrove: OK, thanks, I'll look into that.
2014-08-22T14:31:43Z |3b|: though as usual, you can change modes of buffers in emacs all you want, so you could use slime in *scratch*, or
2014-08-22T14:31:48Z |3b|: any other random buffer
2014-08-22T14:31:59Z Shaftoe___: Hi all. I'm trying to build c2ffi to no avail. Build log gives this error: http://paste.lisp.org/+32P5
2014-08-22T14:32:02Z Shaftoe___: any ideas?
2014-08-22T14:32:08Z Aranshada|W: |3b|: I'm not that good with emacs yet. :)
2014-08-22T14:32:16Z oGMo: Shaftoe___: not really relevant to #lisp but hop over to #lispgames and i'll help
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2014-08-22T14:32:32Z Shaftoe___: thanks.
2014-08-22T14:32:32Z |3b|: Aranshada|W: probably should avoid doing things like randomly changing modes then :)
2014-08-22T14:32:36Z oGMo: np
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2014-08-22T15:46:00Z Ven: erm, is there no range or mapcar-with-index defined by default in the spec? That seems surprising
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2014-08-22T15:50:45Z pjb: Ven: if you're lazy, you can abuse other functions.
2014-08-22T15:50:52Z Ven: pjb: can I :-) ?
2014-08-22T15:51:00Z pjb: You can.
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2014-08-22T15:51:34Z pjb: (reduce (lambda (x y) (cons (f x) y)) sequence :start start :end end :initial-value '())
2014-08-22T15:51:39Z pjb: for example.
2014-08-22T15:51:43Z Ven: nice one!
2014-08-22T15:52:18Z Ven: (I'm wondering, what's the consensus with loop, use :from :by or simply from by (without `:`)?)
2014-08-22T15:52:28Z ggole: (loop for i from 0 for elt in list ...), too
2014-08-22T15:52:33Z H4ns: Ven: no colons
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2014-08-22T15:52:50Z pjb: (reduce (lambda (x y) (cons x y)) '(1 2 3 4 5 6) :start 1 :end 4 :initial-value '() :from-end t) --> (2 3 4)
2014-08-22T15:52:57Z Ven: ggole: that's how I implement my `range` :p
2014-08-22T15:53:14Z pjb: Ven: use colon, so that when you use a package that exports while or until macros, you won't get errors.
2014-08-22T15:53:25Z Xach: Ven: I prefer without without :. Some prefer with. Use what you like.
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2014-08-22T15:54:28Z Ven: mmh, I don't really plan to use any package, but the colon seems cleaner to me somewhat (less magical I guess)
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2014-08-22T15:54:42Z Ven: (I'm somewhat wondering how much machinery there's involved in that, tbh.)
2014-08-22T15:55:06Z pjb: Just using string= instead of eql.
2014-08-22T15:55:21Z H4ns: Ven: don't worry about "clean" and "magic".  loop is not "clean" to begin with.
2014-08-22T15:55:41Z H4ns: Ven: the colons don't add to the readability of the code, in my opinion.
2014-08-22T15:55:58Z pessoa: I never use LOOP
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2014-08-22T15:56:05Z Ven: H4ns: hahaha. I guess that's true! my only lisp experience (outside of some clojure exercices) was with racket, which isn't nearly as magical as CL seems to be.
2014-08-22T15:56:36Z H4ns: pessoa: you'll probably get over that :)
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2014-08-22T15:58:16Z pessoa: there are those wonderful forms like MAPCAR, DOLIST, DOTIMES, DO, ...
2014-08-22T15:58:45Z H4ns: pessoa: i don't think that do is ever more readable than loop.
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2014-08-22T15:59:45Z ggole: There's tagbody, it can handle anything!
2014-08-22T16:00:31Z pessoa: TAGBODY is equivalent to BLOCK
2014-08-22T16:00:52Z spockokt: I see we're talking about loops. Not sure if this has been mentioned yet http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/loop-for-black-belts.html
2014-08-22T16:01:03Z spockokt: Good stuff. Just read that chapter recently
2014-08-22T16:01:49Z Xach: pessoa: How so?
2014-08-22T16:01:55Z prxq: there are cases tagbody can be quite readable compared to the alternatives.
2014-08-22T16:01:58Z pessoa: racket has got a few cool iteration forms in ecxcess to the scheme standards
2014-08-22T16:02:35Z pessoa: the equivalence of block and tagbody? A standard exercise in macro-logy.
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2014-08-22T16:03:03Z ggole: Er, how is block equivalent to tagbody?
2014-08-22T16:03:28Z spockokt: their both forms of goto/jump?
2014-08-22T16:03:32Z spockokt: *they're
2014-08-22T16:03:41Z ggole: Oh, in that sense.
2014-08-22T16:04:04Z Xach: block could be considered a very limited form of tagbody
2014-08-22T16:04:40Z pessoa: block may be implemented as a macro using tagbody, and vice versa
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2014-08-22T16:05:54Z H4ns: that does not make them "equivalent"
2014-08-22T16:06:14Z Xach: My imagination is too limited to conceive of implementing tagbody in terms of block. Maybe it's the medications.
2014-08-22T16:07:09Z H4ns: pessoa: show us your tagbody implemented in terms of block, i'm also curious how that'd be done.
2014-08-22T16:07:24Z ggole: A switch?
2014-08-22T16:09:02Z pessoa: I found it years ago on the web and can't remember the details.
2014-08-22T16:09:08Z H4ns: right.
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2014-08-22T16:11:45Z H4ns: there is this interesting page http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html
2014-08-22T16:11:59Z H4ns: but it lacks an implementation of tagbody/go in terms of block/return-from
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2014-08-22T16:16:12Z Xach: H4ns: as an extended CLF position, can you tell me what's up with common-lisp.net today
2014-08-22T16:16:30Z Xach: that is just a joke. i emailed admin@ for info.
2014-08-22T16:16:37Z H4ns: no, i am just a mailing list management advisor (or chief advisor?  i don't remember)
2014-08-22T16:17:02Z H4ns: i've seen the email, but i don't know what's up.
2014-08-22T16:17:57Z ehu: Xach: which service are you accessing?
2014-08-22T16:18:05Z ehu: HTTP?
2014-08-22T16:19:00Z pessoa: approximately, use an array of blocks who return, either neturally or via RETURN, the index of the next block to execute. This emulates the workflow of a tagbody
2014-08-22T16:19:20Z ehu: Xach: because for me it works.
2014-08-22T16:20:57Z ehu: Xach: could it be that your Quicklisp build behaves like a bot? Generating lots of HTTP connections (per second)?
2014-08-22T16:20:59Z pessoa: that's just the idea of implementing tagbofy via blcok, there are of course many details wanting
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2014-08-22T16:21:53Z pessoa: tagbody, not tagbofy
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2014-08-22T16:49:33Z jackdaniel: H4ns: there is a lot of interesting articles there. thanks :-)
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2014-08-22T16:49:48Z Xach: ehu: http was down for me for a while.
2014-08-22T16:50:00Z Xach: ehu: I make lots of connections in a row all the time.
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2014-08-22T17:02:01Z jasom: I've implemented block/return in terms of throw/catch I suppose tagbody could be implemented by adding an extra value to the return for which tag to execute next, and all of the tags could be subsumed into lambdas
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2014-08-22T17:03:27Z Xach: piece of cake
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2014-08-22T17:13:26Z Ober: is there a cleaner way to pull out hash items? https://github.com/ober/lighthouse-cl/blob/master/lighthouse.lisp
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2014-08-22T17:14:11Z dto: Xach: hi, saw your post/link. nice :). btw i'm almost certainly going to liberalize the asset license very soon, to CC-BY-NC or possibly more liberal
2014-08-22T17:14:23Z dto: may as well make it fully Free
2014-08-22T17:14:41Z dto: Xach: hope you are doing well!
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2014-08-22T17:22:32Z _death: Ober: something like (defmacro hashlet (((&rest vars) hash-table) &body forms) (alexandria:once-only (hash-table) `(let ,(loop for var in vars collect `(,var (gethash ,(string-downcase var) ,hash-table))) ,@forms))) ?
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2014-08-22T17:23:01Z jasom: quick question; how do you handle the case where you're collecting values in a loop, and want to collect an extra value at the end; you obviously can't do a collect clause in a finally?
2014-08-22T17:23:16Z jasom: I have various ways I've done it in the past, and am curious
2014-08-22T17:23:41Z akkad: _death: nice.
2014-08-22T17:23:56Z Ober: _death: perfect. thank you.
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2014-08-22T17:26:33Z _death: jasom: nconc would be one way
2014-08-22T17:26:44Z jasom: _death: that's how I've done it in the past
2014-08-22T17:27:30Z jasom was just wondering if there was a better way
2014-08-22T17:27:53Z _death: jasom: I think iterate has something for it.. but not loop
2014-08-22T17:28:13Z wasamasa: hmm
2014-08-22T17:28:20Z wasamasa: some day I should port iterate to emacs
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2014-08-22T17:28:43Z jasom: I suppose you could loop on the list manually and test for exiting manually too after the last collect
2014-08-22T17:29:11Z jasom: it's also trivial in my toy iteration macro I wrote as an exercise
2014-08-22T17:29:13Z _death: if you like ugly code :)
2014-08-22T17:29:51Z jasom: _death: not that ugly: for (list . rest) = init-val then rest
2014-08-22T17:30:11Z _death: this assumes a particular kind of iteration
2014-08-22T17:30:11Z jasom: _death: plus a single if/while clause to test for exiting
2014-08-22T17:30:32Z jasom: _death: true
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2014-08-22T17:31:11Z jasom: I suppose you could also have a separate for-as-on-list subclause on the same list and check for (atom (cdr)) at the very end of your loop body
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2014-08-22T17:31:39Z jasom: or even for (list . rest) on list
2014-08-22T17:32:05Z jasom: er for (item . rest) on list; and check for (atom rest) at the end of the loop body
2014-08-22T17:33:47Z jasom: that actually is the cleanest for the particular case I'm working on right now
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2014-08-22T17:35:08Z Ven: uh-oh. (defmacro foo () `(cond (t 1))) then (macroexpand (foo)) only yields 1. Not sure why's the "cond"'s missing?
2014-08-22T17:35:30Z jasom: Ven: try (macroexpand-1)?
2014-08-22T17:35:49Z Ven: jasom: same
2014-08-22T17:35:55Z jasom: oh
2014-08-22T17:36:00Z jasom: (macroexpand '(foo))
2014-08-22T17:36:12Z Ven: oh :D. thankies
2014-08-22T17:36:15Z jasom: macroexpand is a function
2014-08-22T17:36:26Z Ven: I had it right at some point! hehe
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2014-08-22T17:37:20Z wasamasa: I find it funny how a function can help debugging macros
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2014-08-22T17:38:00Z jasom: wasamasa: the underlying macroexpansion is all accomplished via vanilla lisp functions; they are just invoked at a different stage
2014-08-22T17:38:06Z Ven: funny how there's no flatten1
2014-08-22T17:38:16Z wasamasa: jasom: mhh
2014-08-22T17:38:16Z Ven: er, s/1/!/.
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2014-08-22T17:39:50Z jasom: Ven: in CL it would be something like nflatten if it existed
2014-08-22T17:40:09Z Ven: jasom: mind explaining why? or linking to something explaining
2014-08-22T17:40:16Z Ven: isn't "n" prefix "destructive"?
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2014-08-22T17:40:52Z jasom: Ven: you said "funny how there's no flatten!" after the s/1/!/
2014-08-22T17:41:13Z jasom: and scheme uses a suffix of ! for destructive
2014-08-22T17:41:16Z Ven: jasom: I'm not sure what you're saying.
2014-08-22T17:41:33Z Ven: oh, no, that was the "!" of the sentence, sorry :P
2014-08-22T17:41:38Z jasom: ohhhh
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2014-08-22T17:42:14Z jasom: and "n" is for non-consing (which usually means destructive, since it reuses cons cells)
2014-08-22T17:42:15Z rkf45: hi! :-)
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2014-08-22T17:42:51Z jasom: in fact it always tends to mean destructive, since they don't have separate consing and non-consing versions if the non-consing version is non-destructive
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2014-08-22T17:43:05Z jasom: s/always tends/always
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2014-08-22T17:56:40Z jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142183 <-- tagbody from throw/catch
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2014-08-22T17:57:07Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
2014-08-22T17:57:58Z _death: jasom: http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html
2014-08-22T17:58:23Z jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143467 <-- tagbody from block/return-from
2014-08-22T17:59:00Z jasom: I assume that symbols in that example starting with "TAGBODY-" are internal to some non-user package
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2014-08-22T18:00:19Z jasom: _death: oh, the already have that one; I didn't know.  Someone said there was no version with block/return-from though, which appears to be true
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2014-08-22T18:07:42Z beach: rkf45: New here?
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2014-08-22T18:11:48Z jasom: _death: though I suppose tagbody/go emulated with block/return-from is implied by tagbody/go emulated by catch/throw and catch/throw emulated by block/return-from
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2014-08-22T18:26:47Z jasom: Is there a definition for how declarations are applied when there are multiple bindings to variables of the same name in a let*?
2014-08-22T18:27:50Z beach: Good question!  I would assume it applies to the "innermost" one, but I don't recall seeing anything about it in the CLHS.
2014-08-22T18:28:11Z Fare: jasom: badly
2014-08-22T18:28:15Z jasom: beach: Empirically that's how both sbcl and ccl does it, but I couldn't find anything in the spec
2014-08-22T18:28:31Z Fare: jasom: tough luck if you want to ignore a shadowed variable... instead you'll have a warning
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2014-08-22T18:29:08Z jasom: Fare: I know that's what implementations do, I just can't find anything in the spec that addresses the situation
2014-08-22T18:29:11Z Fare: which is a pain when that's what a macro expands to
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2014-08-22T18:30:18Z jasom: Fare: I know, I've been there. I ended up expanding to nested let instead
2014-08-22T18:31:05Z Fare: These days I use the uiop:nest macro
2014-08-22T18:31:19Z Fare: so much better than the many ersatz I've seen
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2014-08-22T18:32:26Z Fare: (defmacro nest (&rest things) (reduce #'(lambda (outer inner) `(,@outer ,inner)) things :from-end t))
2014-08-22T18:33:00Z Fare: I'm tempted to rename it <- in symmetry with clojure's ->
2014-08-22T18:33:13Z Fare: but too late to rename it in uiop
2014-08-22T18:33:33Z jasom: Fare: I don't see how they can be ersatz if they predate uiop:nest
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2014-08-22T18:34:06Z Fare: jasom: they do less, for higher cognitive load and implementation pain
2014-08-22T18:34:45Z jasom: which makes them inferior, not ersatz (ersatz means roughly "in imitation of, or in substitute for" with the implication it's inferior)
2014-08-22T18:34:54Z Fare: ok
2014-08-22T18:35:27Z Fare: I don't know if mbaringer invented nest, or got it from someone else, but whoever invented it is a genius.
2014-08-22T18:35:56Z jasom: That looks nice
2014-08-22T18:36:22Z jasom: ah, I found the one where I wanted to have symbols named "_" ignored; I didn't generate nested let in that case, I replaced all _ with gensyms and ignored the lot of them
2014-08-22T18:36:31Z Fare: there were so many libraries trying to unify binding constructs, and of course none of them could handle your own domain-specific binding construct, and/or required quite heavy machinery for extension.
2014-08-22T18:37:11Z Fare: with nest, I can (net (let ...) (progn ...) (let ...))
2014-08-22T18:37:32Z Fare: and the binding-less evaluation is in a progn form.
2014-08-22T18:37:47Z jasom: right
2014-08-22T18:39:37Z Fare: I can nest let, multiple-value-bind, progn, if, when, unless, (loop ... :finally), etc.
2014-08-22T18:40:33Z jasom: Ideally you should make it work with (= (length things 1)) as well
2014-08-22T18:40:44Z dlowe tries to decide if that's more or less readable than actually nesting.
2014-08-22T18:40:45Z jasom: which is a minor change
2014-08-22T18:41:11Z Fare: jasom: doesn't it already work? (nest foo) ==> foo
2014-08-22T18:41:14Z jasom: dlowe: you can generate a list of forms to be nested iteratively, which is occasionally more readable than generating them recursively
2014-08-22T18:41:35Z jasom: Fare: oh you're right
2014-08-22T18:41:43Z dlowe: jasom: sure, I get what it does
2014-08-22T18:42:01Z jasom: dlowe: I would say sometimes it's more readable and other times it's not.
2014-08-22T18:42:09Z jasom: it's another tool to have though
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2014-08-22T18:42:35Z Fare: in lisp-interface-library, I have a few macros that nest 19 times.
2014-08-22T18:42:56Z dlowe: in normal-lisp-land you'd just break some of those out into functions
2014-08-22T18:43:08Z Fare: in my automated pure to stateful data structure transformers and vice versa
2014-08-22T18:43:08Z jasom: Fare: I felt very proud of myself when I was able to make a LIL structure
2014-08-22T18:43:17Z jasom: it took me about 2 hours to figure out
2014-08-22T18:44:00Z Fare: yeah, the documentation is somewhat lacking.
2014-08-22T18:44:08Z Fare: what did you write?
2014-08-22T18:44:18Z jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142848
2014-08-22T18:44:20Z Fare: lil is accepting patches
2014-08-22T18:44:37Z jasom: oh, not make a new structure, just create a structure already defined in LIL
2014-08-22T18:44:49Z Fare: oh
2014-08-22T18:45:08Z Fare: I htought I had never finished implementing queues
2014-08-22T18:45:16Z Fare: had I?
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2014-08-22T18:45:25Z jasom: enqueue/dequeue works
2014-08-22T18:45:30Z jasom: didn't try anything else
2014-08-22T18:45:39Z jasom: also didn't try lifo
2014-08-22T18:45:43Z jasom: or stateless
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2014-08-22T18:45:51Z Fare: maybe I had the trivial stateful variant but no good pure variant
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2014-08-22T18:46:48Z jasom: But after 2 hours of reading source and some of your paper on it, I was able to figure out how to construct and use a queue
2014-08-22T18:46:54Z Fare: :-/
2014-08-22T18:47:39Z jasom: some of your examples were flat out wrong AFAICT; they did something equivalent to (create  ...) rather than (create () ...)
2014-08-22T18:47:49Z rkf45: Fare: good article about using CL as scripting language...
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2014-08-22T18:48:47Z Fare: thanks
2014-08-22T18:48:49Z shka: ave tux
2014-08-22T18:49:22Z shka: how to save to svg/pdf/other vector file with vecto?
2014-08-22T18:49:55Z jasom: shka: i think it only saves as png?
2014-08-22T18:51:15Z jasom: shka: cl-pdf should let you save as a pdf
2014-08-22T18:51:25Z Fare: I published on asdf-devel a proposal to speed up the startup time
2014-08-22T18:51:25Z Fare: right now ~1s to start a script is not great.
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2014-08-22T18:52:14Z jasom: Fare: the fact that cl-launch makes it so easy to save an image helps a lot.
2014-08-22T18:52:43Z jasom: you can debug as a script, then save as an executable for fast startup time
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2014-08-22T18:53:30Z jasom: or actually what I do is debug in emacs and then use cl-launch to make a binary
2014-08-22T18:53:35Z Fare: yes
2014-08-22T18:54:04Z Fare: not 100% satisfactory, though
2014-08-22T18:54:35Z jasom: I don't actually use any of the #! fanciness of cl-launch since it is (currently) not nearly ubiquitous enough.  I can do perl/python/bash/awk in #! but little else is useful in one
2014-08-22T18:55:06Z Fare: well, I needed to put in in debian today so that people can rely on it next year.
2014-08-22T18:55:12Z Fare: or two years from now
2014-08-22T18:55:13Z Fare: etc
2014-08-22T18:55:33Z jasom: right, once it's just an apt-get away, then it becomes a lot more useful
2014-08-22T18:56:28Z Fare: it's annoying that there's noone to upload lisp packages from mentors.debian.net to unstable in any predictable timeframe
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2014-08-22T18:58:29Z shka: Fare: oooh
2014-08-22T18:58:47Z shka: well, kinda disapointing since i like vecto
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2014-08-22T19:00:10Z shka: anyway
2014-08-22T19:00:20Z Fare: similarly, my ideas on speeding up the source-registry require backward incompatibility, and thus can't be achieved without a two-year migration process.
2014-08-22T19:00:21Z jasom: shka: my understanding is that vecto based its interface off of a subset of cl-pdf so you may want to try that out
2014-08-22T19:00:52Z shka: is these any common lisp project that is open for noobish lispers?
2014-08-22T19:01:11Z Fare: plenty of them
2014-08-22T19:01:19Z Fare: what are you interested in?
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2014-08-22T19:02:03Z j_king: shka: if you're not new to programming I started https://github.com/agentultra/butler but haven't worked on it in a while. could use some love.
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2014-08-22T19:03:32Z shka: j_king: not new to programming, but still new to lisp
2014-08-22T19:04:05Z shka: i just want to find project with more expirenced programmers to learn and help to move things
2014-08-22T19:04:37Z shka: i just like to learn by doing things
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2014-08-22T19:05:13Z shka: and if it can help our community to get better software, even better
2014-08-22T19:06:25Z wasamasa: hmm
2014-08-22T19:06:37Z wasamasa: work a lot with a library that has little docs and improve the docs
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2014-08-22T19:06:52Z wasamasa: do this for every less than ideal documented library
2014-08-22T19:06:57Z wasamasa: you probably won't run out of work
2014-08-22T19:07:02Z Fare: if you like data structures, lil could use a lot of help with e.g. a pure queue variant, etc.
2014-08-22T19:07:11Z wasamasa: lil?
2014-08-22T19:07:18Z Fare: lisp-interface-library
2014-08-22T19:07:41Z shka: Fare: cool, who is developing it?
2014-08-22T19:08:03Z Fare: the library consolidation effort could use someone who goes through all test libraries and helps transform one of them into a mother-of-all kind.
2014-08-22T19:08:22Z wasamasa: Fare: hehe, depending on your own utils
2014-08-22T19:08:36Z Ven: is there a library with e.g. every utility that "On Lisp" has :P?
2014-08-22T19:08:37Z Fare: shka: I used to develop it
2014-08-22T19:08:42Z Ven: they're like half my code now haha
2014-08-22T19:08:51Z Fare: Ven: I'm sure there is
2014-08-22T19:09:27Z shka: Ven: it should be called rolf
2014-08-22T19:09:48Z shka: Fare: i'm looking for something active
2014-08-22T19:09:52Z Ven: (I have split-by-char, range, mapcar-with-index, filter, partition – these I'd like to move out of my coe)
2014-08-22T19:09:58Z Ven: code, that is.
2014-08-22T19:10:04Z Fare: shka: if you partake, it's active by definition
2014-08-22T19:10:22Z Fare: shka: look at what has changed a lot in quicklisp
2014-08-22T19:10:45Z shka: but i want to learn from others
2014-08-22T19:11:10Z Fare: Ven: alexandria might have a lot of them
2014-08-22T19:11:45Z wasamasa: hmm, there was this other utility library that went beyond alexandria
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2014-08-22T19:12:53Z Fare: there are many many of them
2014-08-22T19:14:35Z PuercoPop: Fare: Hi, do you have any recommendation with as to what is the goto cmdline options parsing library to work with cl-launch?
2014-08-22T19:14:57Z Fare: sorry, which command line library?
2014-08-22T19:15:07Z Ven: Fare: well, maybe you can recommend me a prelude-like library?
2014-08-22T19:15:15Z Fare: didier verna's clon looked like the most advanced one
2014-08-22T19:15:42Z Fare: my own older command-line-library was lighter weight and slightly more portable, though
2014-08-22T19:16:23Z H4ns: PuercoPop: i found clon to be excessively over-engineered and can recommend the command line parsing library from qitab, which is probably what fare is referring to.
2014-08-22T19:16:26Z Ven: Fare: ha, I have this habit of github-ing to look for a project, but :(
2014-08-22T19:17:34Z Fare: H4ns, yes, that's the one I was referring to
2014-08-22T19:17:56Z Fare: there's plenty of stuff in the quux tarball that hasn't been packaged as useful free software
2014-08-22T19:18:31Z Fare: but at least it's been released under MIT license already
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2014-08-22T19:38:51Z PuercoPop: H4ns: good to know.
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2014-08-22T19:43:59Z dim: Ven: contribute them to alexandria?
2014-08-22T19:44:15Z Ven: dim: where is alexandria's source code hosted:)?
2014-08-22T19:44:50Z H4ns: alexandria has a rather restrictive policy as to what is accepted into it.
2014-08-22T19:45:09Z H4ns: much of what is in onlisp won't find consensus for acceptance.
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2014-08-22T19:46:56Z dim: mmm, interesting, ok
2014-08-22T19:47:15Z dim: so, create a new lib, cl-onlisp or something
2014-08-22T19:47:41Z H4ns: no, do the research.  the stuff has been typed in a thousand times.
2014-08-22T19:50:22Z Shinmera: Good evening everyone
2014-08-22T19:51:12Z Shinmera: I wrote a brief blog about some MOP exploring (adding class-methods), in case anyone's interested in reading about that: http://blog.tymoon.eu/article/286
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2014-08-22T19:54:01Z dim: H4ns: I guess, but apparently it's valuable for some users to be found in quicklisp, and that doesn't seem to be the case...
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2014-08-22T19:57:21Z rkf45: Shinmera: thx for sharing ;)
2014-08-22T19:57:34Z Shinmera: rkf45: Thank you for reading!
2014-08-22T19:57:54Z rkf45: Shinmera: I'm still not reading!
2014-08-22T19:58:04Z Shinmera: ah, well, maybe eventually then
2014-08-22T19:58:50Z rkf45: ok, sure...
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2014-08-22T20:03:47Z Ven: Is there a rule to be able to access a user `defun` from a macro?
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2014-08-22T20:06:16Z PuercoPop: Shinmera: I am unclear as to what would a class method mean? Don't generic functions already specialize on class and can't I persist state for a who class using the allocation slot option?
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2014-08-22T20:07:08Z Shinmera: PuercoPop: the difference is that class-methods belong to a class and thus multiple classes can own a method of the same name with different arguments.
2014-08-22T20:07:28Z Shinmera: PuercoPop: I did write about this in the article, but I guess I wasn't clear enough
2014-08-22T20:08:02Z Shinmera: PuercoPop: Also, there isn't really much of a purpose to this, as I mentioned at the start, generic dispatch is a more powerful idiom, so there's little reason to do this aside from experimenting with MOP.
2014-08-22T20:08:31Z Ven: OOH. I forgot to eval it in my REPL -_-
2014-08-22T20:08:35Z Ven: that's why it's not defined --
2014-08-22T20:11:00Z Ven: is there a lambda+destructuring bind defined by default, or should I just roll my own :)?
2014-08-22T20:12:15Z dim: clhs ordinary-lambda-list
2014-08-22T20:12:15Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for ordinary-lambda-list.
2014-08-22T20:12:26Z dim: clhs ordinary lambda list
2014-08-22T20:12:47Z dim: well read about that, you'll see that lambda provides its own kind of destructuring alreadyu
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2014-08-22T20:13:02Z PuercoPop: Shinmera: experimenting is always good, keep up the posts.
2014-08-22T20:13:07Z dim: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw61/CLHS/Body/03_d.htm
2014-08-22T20:13:40Z H4ns: dim: you can't destructure function arguments, though
2014-08-22T20:14:04Z dim: can you destructure more than one level with destructuring-bind?
2014-08-22T20:14:09Z H4ns: dim: i mean _you_ can, but an ordinary lambda list can't
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2014-08-22T20:21:19Z Ven: well, finished creating my first common lisp macro! it's a "simple" pattern matcher
2014-08-22T20:21:36Z posterdati300: ah nice
2014-08-22T20:21:45Z posterdati300: my greetings and felicitations
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2014-08-22T20:23:21Z Ven now thinks he needs some gensyms ...
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2014-08-22T20:35:31Z Ven: ah, the problem with the `with-gensym` going around is that they don't allow to generate a let inline
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2014-08-22T20:36:59Z dim: is there a list of signal constants in SBCL to use with sb-ext:process-kill, or even better, a trivial portability layer?
2014-08-22T20:38:05Z Xach: dim: you are or might be in luck!
2014-08-22T20:38:23Z Xach: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/727 !!
2014-08-22T20:38:25Z dim: well I think I'll just uiop:run-program
2014-08-22T20:38:26Z dim: oh.
2014-08-22T20:38:44Z dim: hehe, not yet in Quicklisp tho
2014-08-22T20:38:57Z dim: you see I wanted to release *now* ;-)
2014-08-22T20:39:37Z Xach: I hope to have a test dist going tonight and a release sunday
2014-08-22T20:39:48Z dim: actually I want to send SIGTERM to my daemon for it to terminate, and the nice daemon system is handling that server-side already
2014-08-22T20:39:49Z Xach: right now clack is failing :(
2014-08-22T20:39:58Z dim: :(
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2014-08-22T20:45:27Z Shinmera: Xach: Are Crypto-Shortcuts and Deferred still going to make it into this one?
2014-08-22T20:45:36Z dim: (uiop:run-program `("/bin/kill" ,(format nil "-~a" sig) ,pid)) ; takes a whole second to execute...
2014-08-22T20:46:18Z Xach: Shinmera: yes
2014-08-22T20:46:30Z Shinmera: Xach: Cool, thanks a lot!
2014-08-22T20:46:38Z Xach: Shinmera: well, if they build on sbcl they will
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2014-08-22T20:46:48Z Xach: If they fail I'll let you know in time to fix, hopefully
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2014-08-22T20:47:23Z Xach: I have moved to a new build server that is faster and uses much less power and debian 7, there have been a few kinks to work out but things are finally coming together
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2014-08-22T20:48:15Z Shinmera hurries over to emacs to test build it in fear that he might have broken the libs somehow
2014-08-22T20:48:51Z Shinmera: System administration is always a pain, but I'm glad to hear that it seems to be worth it then.
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2014-08-22T20:50:51Z jasom: Ven: alexandria:with-gensyms is perhaps what you want?
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2014-08-22T20:51:38Z Ven: jasom: no, don't think so, I'd like it to generate a quoted let along the way :P. like this: https://github.com/Nami-Doc/readlist.cl/blob/master/readlist.lisp#L40-41
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2014-08-22T20:52:41Z jasom: Ven: once-only is a special case of that
2014-08-22T20:54:21Z Ven: jasom: eh?
2014-08-22T20:54:29Z Xach: Shinmera: I will be able to close an old issue about a gtk3 library not being fully present in quicklisp
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2014-08-22T20:58:46Z Shinmera: Xach: How is that related to the new server, if I may ask?
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2014-08-22T20:59:27Z Xach: Shinmera: old server had debian 6, which made it less than trivial to install gtk3 libraries.
2014-08-22T20:59:38Z Xach: New server has gtk3 easily available.
2014-08-22T20:59:47Z Shinmera: Ah, I see
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2014-08-22T21:01:40Z dim: I think I'm happy enough with pgcharts to thing about releasing already ;-)
2014-08-22T21:02:44Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgcharts -- run a SQL query against your PostgreSQL database and pick a choice of bar, column, pie or donut chart, save the query and its charts params for later, and have a chart-only URL to pass around, save the chart as PDF or JPG or PNG ;; make in common lisp!
2014-08-22T21:02:51Z dim: made, even
2014-08-22T21:02:53Z dim: anyway
2014-08-22T21:02:59Z Xach: cool
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2014-08-22T21:03:28Z dim: I guess I should better include a "demo" database with not-so-random data and sample queries that produce nice charts before releasing for real
2014-08-22T21:03:37Z Xach: That is a good idea
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2014-08-22T21:04:55Z dim: it's as cool as a self-contained hunchentoot service with pre-loaded static resource in the binary image ;-)
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2014-08-22T21:05:36Z dim: this time I even have a *serve-from-cache* switch
2014-08-22T21:05:37Z jasom: Ven: http://common-lisp.net/project/alexandria/draft/alexandria.html#Macro-Writing
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2014-08-22T21:06:24Z Ven: jasom: ah, then no, not really
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2014-08-22T21:10:26Z dim: oh and I forgot to activate the cache in the binary image ;-)
2014-08-22T21:10:38Z dim: it was serving from the local files in the source tree directly...
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2014-08-22T21:47:55Z dim: heisenbug.
2014-08-22T21:48:28Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgcharts/blob/master/src/resources.lisp#l91
2014-08-22T21:49:05Z dim: l98, *serve-from-cache* is T, and handle-static-file fails in the logs (backtrace)
2014-08-22T21:49:06Z dim: 1: (HUNCHENTOOT:HANDLE-STATIC-FILE #P"/Users/dim/dev/pgcharts/web/highcharts/js/modules/exporting.js" NIL)
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2014-08-22T21:49:21Z dim: I'm quite at a loss, which guess means I'd rather have a sleep
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2014-08-22T21:58:43Z antonv`: Xach: how did you install all the foreign libraries on the new server?
2014-08-22T21:58:48Z antonv`: Do you have a script?
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2014-08-22T21:59:59Z Xach: antonv`: i used dpkg --get-selections on the old one and fed it into dpkg --set-selections on the new one. it was imperfect. whatever was missing i manually chased down.
2014-08-22T22:00:28Z dim: apt-get dselect-upgrade FTW!
2014-08-22T22:00:32Z antonv`: I have idea for "exernal dependencies" of ASDF systems
2014-08-22T22:01:24Z antonv`: For example cl+ssl ASDF file may specify :depends-on :openssl
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2014-08-22T22:01:50Z antonv`: and we have openssl.asd
2014-08-22T22:02:17Z antonv`: that ASDF system does not have lisp source codes, but it is of special class
2014-08-22T22:02:41Z antonv`: which supports INSTALL-SCRIPT operation
2014-08-22T22:03:10Z antonv`: when we invoke this operation, it prints commands necessary to install OpenSSL
2014-08-22T22:03:13Z Xach: dim: what is that?
2014-08-22T22:03:45Z dim: after having done --set-selections, you need to do dselect-upgrade to "apply" the selection, or at least that's how it used to be
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2014-08-22T22:04:03Z dim: well it wel dpkg-set-selection at this time, not dpkg --set-selection
2014-08-22T22:04:08Z dim: so maybe it did change
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2014-08-22T22:04:43Z antonv`: So, that way lisp library authros specify explicitly in ASDF systems what external modules are needed
2014-08-22T22:05:20Z antonv`: And user can get install commands for all foreign libraries he depends on
2014-08-22T22:05:24Z pjb: -
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2014-08-22T22:14:05Z drmeister: Could anyone confirm for me that ECL uses c NULL 0x00 as the value of NIL in Common Lisp?  That's how I read the code.
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2014-08-22T22:41:13Z Xach: antonv`: That is interesting, but it seems like there are very, very, very many ways to install foreign libraries.
2014-08-22T22:41:21Z Xach: antonv`: including conflicting and competing methods on the same platform
2014-08-22T22:44:18Z Xach: i think it would be a very good start to enumerate the foreign libraries needed, certainly!
2014-08-22T22:44:30Z Xach: but that is only part of the bridge to a glorious easy foreign library future
2014-08-22T22:44:45Z Xach: and you can query that information from a running system with a library loaded fairly easily
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2014-08-22T22:52:44Z _death: hmm tried that autowrap thingy, but it doesn't seem to handle opaque structs?
2014-08-22T22:52:59Z _death: (incomplete types)
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2014-08-22T23:27:14Z antonv`: Xach: but to query the info from a running system with a library loaded I need to install it
2014-08-22T23:29:28Z antonv`: You are right, it's beyond possible to 100% automate foreign library installation
2014-08-22T23:30:29Z antonv`: I think it is practical to consider the INSTALL-SCRIPT operation as just a helper hint
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2014-08-22T23:31:36Z antonv`: It prints what user can try for the foreign library installation
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2014-08-22T23:32:09Z antonv`: At least, if lisp library specifies in it's ASDF system "I depend on foreiggn module openssl", it is already usefull info
2014-08-22T23:33:38Z antonv`: And if we create an ASDF system representing that foreign module, we can accomulate useful information in this ASDF system
2014-08-22T23:36:09Z antonv`: All lisp libraries depending on the same foreign lib refer it by specifying that foreign-ASDF as a dependency.
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2014-08-22T23:43:44Z jasom: https://github.com/KeenS/CIM <-- looks interesting
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2014-08-23T00:13:01Z Xach: antoszka: yes, you need to load it, but you can also do that on one build system and share the data you collect to others who have not loaded it
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2014-08-23T00:26:08Z zacts: is the land of lisp good?
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2014-08-23T01:08:30Z yakcc: what do people usually read after practical common lisp to up their lisp skills?
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2014-08-23T09:11:29Z jackdaniel: tokenrove: is it ok if I translate your ilc summary to polish and publish it on polish lisp page?
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2014-08-23T09:22:56Z pjb: jackdaniel: You want to polish and publish the summary?
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2014-08-23T09:23:07Z pjb: Where is this polished lisp page?
2014-08-23T09:24:56Z jackdaniel: pjb: i think its a great idea to make it live, for now its a static webpage, but i hope it will be next week on hunchentoot and with all tasty goodies, like ability to add new posts
2014-08-23T09:25:07Z jackdaniel: lisp.pl is an address to answer precisely
2014-08-23T09:26:37Z pjb: jackdaniel: polish and Polish are two different things!
2014-08-23T09:27:33Z pjb: Compare: "I had to help my uncle Jack off a horse." vs. "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse.".
2014-08-23T09:28:02Z pjb: English is a case sensitive language.
2014-08-23T09:28:11Z |3b|: pjb: informal and formal writing are two different things too
2014-08-23T09:28:28Z pjb: This is not SMS.
2014-08-23T09:29:05Z jackdaniel: pjb: this is not a letter either
2014-08-23T09:29:07Z |3b| suspects IRC has been informal longer than sms
2014-08-23T09:29:13Z jackdaniel: but thanks for pointing this out
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2014-08-23T10:28:32Z AeroNotix: with cffi code, I can see the C function in the include libraries on my system, but when calling the cffi function it says that it's an undefined alien function. Any ideas?
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2014-08-23T10:35:21Z AeroNotix: ah fixed it
2014-08-23T10:35:44Z AeroNotix: Turns out that the library exported a slightly different function than what the cffi library thought existed
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2014-08-23T11:00:01Z hitecnologys: Is it allowed to do long-polling using hunchentoot? Is hunchentoot supposed to handle unresponded requests well?
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2014-08-23T11:00:17Z H4ns: hitecnologys: it does nothing special about long polling.
2014-08-23T11:00:52Z H4ns: hitecnologys: if you're running multi threaded, one thread will be blocked during the long poll.  this works well enough as long as the number of clients is low.
2014-08-23T11:01:42Z hitecnologys: H4ns: I see. Is there any sane way to evade blocking expect for rewriting hunchentoot?
2014-08-23T11:03:34Z H4ns: hitecnologys: no, there is no way.  hunchentoot blocks inside of stream reads (and writes), and that cannot be easily changed.  you can, however, take over the stream and then handle interaction on it yourself if you're so inclined.
2014-08-23T11:04:04Z H4ns: hitecnologys: long polling should in general be avoided as it eats up resources in all intermediate proxies as well.
2014-08-23T11:04:04Z hitecnologys: H4ns: I see. Thanks for help.
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2014-08-23T11:05:08Z hitecnologys: H4ns: I just thought hunchentoot might have something like multiplexer so the connections will simply remain open and allow other code to be executed meanwhile.
2014-08-23T11:06:09Z hitecnologys: s/connections/connection/
2014-08-23T11:06:24Z H4ns: hitecnologys: what make you think so.  your wish maybe?
2014-08-23T11:06:43Z H4ns: hitecnologys: i can see no traces of documentation or code that'd suggest so.
2014-08-23T11:07:27Z hitecnologys: H4ns: yes, that was only pure hope.
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2014-08-23T11:09:04Z hitecnologys: I think I'll better stick to repetitive AJAX requests then. Blocking is no good.
2014-08-23T11:09:16Z H4ns: that is what i'd want to suggest, too
2014-08-23T11:11:38Z hitecnologys: The desire to use long-polling was because I wanted real-time updating of chat (online JS chat, that's what I'm writing).
2014-08-23T11:12:08Z H4ns: websockets come to mind.
2014-08-23T11:12:28Z H4ns: i've heard that there are actual cl solutions that work, but i have not tried any of them.
2014-08-23T11:12:39Z Shinmera: There is hunchensocket, but I donk't know if/how that works
2014-08-23T11:12:58Z H4ns: hunchensocket is unmaintained and does not really work, as far as i understand.
2014-08-23T11:13:09Z H4ns: i had hoped to work on it, but that never happened
2014-08-23T11:13:14Z hitecnologys: Yes, WebSockets are geat, but from my experience with web browsers (which is not too big, though) they don't work everywhere.
2014-08-23T11:13:16Z Shinmera: Sadness.
2014-08-23T11:13:49Z H4ns: hitecnologys: not all proxies support them.  so, you're probably best off with ajax polling.
2014-08-23T11:14:11Z hitecnologys: H4ns: indeed. 10 second dealy isn't such a big deal.
2014-08-23T11:14:11Z _death: there's also clws
2014-08-23T11:14:16Z H4ns: hitecnologys: i mean, you should be able to deal with a few hundred clients if you don't mess up too much.
2014-08-23T11:14:25Z H4ns: hitecnologys: 10 second, that is way too long for a chat.
2014-08-23T11:14:34Z Shinmera: I recall seeing something about hunchentoot with push, but I can't find it anymore.
2014-08-23T11:15:13Z Shinmera: Even 5 seconds is too long for chat
2014-08-23T11:15:15Z hitecnologys: H4ns: I'm planning to do something like auto-adjusting dealy which is set according to chat activity.
2014-08-23T11:15:28Z hitecnologys: H4ns: 10 second is for no activity.
2014-08-23T11:15:42Z H4ns: why bother.  poll every second, done.
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2014-08-23T11:16:02Z hitecnologys: Well, that works too, yes.
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2014-08-23T11:17:04Z hitecnologys: I was also thinking about using pure iolib + simple HTTP parser but that won't be very portable and won't fit into existing architecture of the site.
2014-08-23T11:17:27Z hitecnologys: And raw sockets are too much trouble for simple web application.
2014-08-23T11:18:11Z H4ns: use ajax polls, poll once a second, stop worrying and get coding.
2014-08-23T11:18:36Z |3b| would suggest conserv.http, but it is probably mostly unmaintained at this point
2014-08-23T11:18:44Z |3b|: and probably also unfinished
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2014-08-23T11:18:52Z hitecnologys: H4ns: that's what I'm doing now.
2014-08-23T11:19:18Z pjb:  You can do both: ajax poll until there's some activity, then long-poll with timeout until there's no activity.
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2014-08-23T11:22:18Z hitecnologys: pjb: that would be too memory-hungry if there were more than a dozen of clients.
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2014-08-23T11:40:48Z AeroNotix: which HTML templating library do people prefer?
2014-08-23T11:41:13Z AeroNotix: I'm leaning towards Djula because I'm familiar with the Django implementation. But Djula doesn't really look maintained according to the Github page.
2014-08-23T11:41:14Z Xach: i use html-template
2014-08-23T11:41:31Z Xach: there is a new maintainer
2014-08-23T11:41:34Z Xach: hang on, let me get the url
2014-08-23T11:41:46Z AeroNotix: ok
2014-08-23T11:41:54Z AeroNotix: http://weitz.de/html-template/ you mean this?
2014-08-23T11:42:17Z Xach: https://github.com/mmontone/djula
2014-08-23T11:42:34Z Xach: AeroNotix: yes. my needs have been simple and html-template meets them.
2014-08-23T11:42:35Z AeroNotix: Xach: thanks
2014-08-23T11:42:46Z Xach: quicklisp will use the new djula repo for the next release.
2014-08-23T11:42:53Z AeroNotix: Xach: what does it use currently?
2014-08-23T11:43:00Z hitecnologys: There's also cl-closure-template. It's also quite nice.
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2014-08-23T11:43:12Z Shinmera: I use my own system called Clip, but it's currently a bit rough around the edges. I want to improve it some more first before suggesting it wholeheartedly.
2014-08-23T11:43:49Z AeroNotix: The reason I prefer djula is because I'm familiar with it already. I don't need many advanced features.
2014-08-23T11:44:15Z Xach: AeroNotix: the one from nubgames on github
2014-08-23T11:45:28Z AeroNotix: cool ok
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2014-08-23T12:11:26Z AeroNotix: https://gist.github.com/AeroNotix/40c5e605e1486c569eb3 wat
2014-08-23T12:11:42Z AeroNotix: Juergen is not my user and that file does not even exist
2014-08-23T12:12:04Z AeroNotix must warn that I don't know what FASL files are or what they do
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2014-08-23T12:16:45Z mood: AeroNotix: Archlinux's SBCL maintainer appears to be called Jürgen, so that's probably where that pathname comes from
2014-08-23T12:17:24Z AeroNotix: I was thinking that, but that error is weird
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2014-08-23T12:20:00Z mood: AeroNotix: The error is a bit weird, but it's probably because you're calling DJULA:COMPILE-TEMPLATE with only one argument, whereas it takes at least two. Did you mean to call DJULA:COMPILE-TEMPLATE* ?
2014-08-23T12:20:07Z mood: http://mmontone.github.io/djula/doc/build/html/usage.html#generic:djula:compile-template
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2014-08-23T12:20:33Z AeroNotix: mood: yupp I got as far as that, just thought the error could've been more helpful
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2014-08-23T12:34:28Z chitofan: if i use case, can i do (left or right) or must i specify an individual case (left (..)) (right (..))?
2014-08-23T12:34:53Z Adlai: clhs case
2014-08-23T12:34:53Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_case_.htm
2014-08-23T12:34:54Z pjb: case clauses take lists.
2014-08-23T12:35:22Z pjb: (case e ((left) …) ((right) …))  (case e ((left right) …))
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2014-08-23T12:35:49Z whfkvfszjibsaybx: May I know the usefulness of common lisp?
2014-08-23T12:35:51Z pjb: always write the lists!  Otherwise you'll write (case e (nil …) (t …)) and wonder why it doesn't work for days.
2014-08-23T12:35:59Z pjb: whfkvfszjibsaybx: very high.
2014-08-23T12:36:29Z whfkvfszjibsaybx: I world like to know the fan fare it gets
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2014-08-23T12:36:56Z whfkvfszjibsaybx: N
2014-08-23T12:37:01Z pjb: whfkvfszjibsaybx: 0.
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2014-08-23T12:37:42Z pjb: whfkvfszjibsaybx: it is an ANSI standardized language: nobody doesn't crave popularity for the language.  It's used for industrial application.
2014-08-23T12:38:16Z pjb: s/doesn't crave/craves/
2014-08-23T12:38:28Z pjb: Sorry for the incomplete editing.
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2014-08-23T12:44:58Z Xach: I have a feeling that whfkvfszjibsaybx was not interested in a sincere discussion.
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2014-08-23T12:50:07Z chitofan: if i had a function for checking rows
2014-08-23T12:50:17Z chitofan: should i use a local variable to store t or f for each row checked
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2014-08-23T12:50:28Z chitofan: im still a little confused how a function will evaluate to true or false
2014-08-23T12:50:45Z wasamasa: there is no f
2014-08-23T12:50:51Z wasamasa: there's just t and nil
2014-08-23T12:51:06Z wasamasa: oh and everything is t in the boolean sense
2014-08-23T12:51:17Z Zhivago: Except for nil.
2014-08-23T12:51:25Z wasamasa: and '()?
2014-08-23T12:51:35Z wasamasa: but wait, '() should be equivalent to nil anyways
2014-08-23T12:51:57Z chitofan: you guys answered everything but my question :(
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2014-08-23T12:52:35Z Zhivago: Your question appears to have been false.
2014-08-23T12:52:36Z wasamasa: well, it's simple, either store something meaningful like a row
2014-08-23T12:52:40Z wasamasa: or store nil
2014-08-23T12:52:49Z pjb: '() is (CL:QUOTE CL:NIL) and is not CL:NIL.
2014-08-23T12:52:58Z pjb: (eq ''() 'nil) --> nil
2014-08-23T12:53:05Z pjb: (eq '() 'nil) --> t
2014-08-23T12:53:22Z pjb: () is read as CL:NIL by the standard reader macro.
2014-08-23T12:53:32Z Xach: chitofan: do you want to check that all rows are valid or invalid and return one answer? or do you want to have an answer per row?
2014-08-23T12:53:40Z |3b|: chitofan: not sure what you are asking... if you need to store things temporarily, a local variable is good. 1 per row might not be good
2014-08-23T12:53:52Z chitofan: check that all rows are valid, if one row is invalid, then it should evaluate to nil
2014-08-23T12:54:12Z pjb: You would use a vector to store data for a number of rows.
2014-08-23T12:54:14Z |3b|: (every #'valid rows)?
2014-08-23T12:54:18Z ggole: chitofan: are you writing code that returns whether some row is invalid?
2014-08-23T12:54:31Z pjb: whether there's a variable bound to that vector is irrelevant (and often useless).
2014-08-23T12:54:39Z ggole: ^ what |3b| said, basically
2014-08-23T12:54:59Z pjb: (do-something-with-checks (map 'vector (function check-row) rows))
2014-08-23T12:55:02Z pjb: see, no variable.
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2014-08-23T12:55:07Z Xach: chitofan: |3b| has a good option.
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2014-08-23T12:55:21Z |3b|: or (loop for row = (get a row) always (valid row))
2014-08-23T12:55:44Z chitofan: ok let me explore some of these options :) thanks
2014-08-23T12:55:48Z chitofan: i wanted to try doing it without a loop
2014-08-23T12:55:56Z chitofan: i remember seeing a list eater with car and cdr before
2014-08-23T12:56:00Z |3b|: actually (loop for row = (get a row) while row always (valid row)) might terminate more consistently
2014-08-23T12:56:00Z chitofan: in land of lisp
2014-08-23T12:56:00Z pjb: You are always assuming things!  Perhaps chitofan wants to count the checks, or to check whether it's an odd number?
2014-08-23T12:56:11Z ggole: Oh man, I always forget about, uh, always
2014-08-23T12:56:52Z Xach uses never and always quite a bit
2014-08-23T12:58:15Z |3b|: chitofan: you can implement iteration by recursion, but that isn't considered good style in CL (it might be OK in scheme, which requires implementations to implement some recursion in a way that won't run out of stack)
2014-08-23T12:58:25Z Xach: |3b|: more consistency than your previous loop form, or more consistency than (every ...)?
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2014-08-23T12:58:47Z |3b|: in CL, it is better to use LOOP, DOLIST, EVERY, etc as applicable
2014-08-23T12:59:06Z |3b|: Xach: more than previous LOOP, sorry if that wasn't clear
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2014-08-23T12:59:18Z |3b|: (and thanks for clarifying if so)
2014-08-23T13:00:35Z |3b| probably should have use a placeholder than didn't look like a use of cl:get also
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2014-08-23T13:01:28Z chitofan: does anybody have a simple example of a list-eater?
2014-08-23T13:01:33Z chitofan: i can't find it in my book :(
2014-08-23T13:01:45Z H4ns: what is a list-eater?
2014-08-23T13:01:52Z |3b|: do you mean a function that calls itself with the rest of the list?
2014-08-23T13:02:16Z chitofan: yeap
2014-08-23T13:02:21Z |3b|: if so, that is the 'recursion' i was mentioning you shouldn't use in CL for this sort of thing
2014-08-23T13:02:36Z Xach: Unless it's a good fit.
2014-08-23T13:03:30Z |3b|: but something like (defun foo (x) (if (not x) t (and (valid (car x)) (foo (cdr x)))))
2014-08-23T13:04:46Z pjb: x is not a boolean, don't use not on it!!!
2014-08-23T13:05:13Z chitofan: lists can evaluate to a boolean value?
2014-08-23T13:05:14Z |3b|: true, but include the better options when complaining about it :)
2014-08-23T13:05:17Z chitofan: if they're empty nil
2014-08-23T13:05:20Z pjb: (defun map-validp (list) (if (endp list) t (and (validp (first list)) (map-validp (rest list)))))
2014-08-23T13:05:27Z |3b|: NIL is a list, NIL is also boolean false
2014-08-23T13:05:28Z chitofan: but if it has something in it its true?
2014-08-23T13:05:40Z pjb: |3b|: everybody knows the better options, we've been repeating them for 20 years!
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2014-08-23T13:05:40Z |3b|: anything that isn't NIL is boolean true
2014-08-23T13:06:06Z pjb: Espèce de booléen!
2014-08-23T13:06:11Z ggole: But (typep (list 1) 'boolean) => nil (if you care about that).
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2014-08-23T13:06:18Z |3b|: pjb: not in this case, when explaining to someone who hasn't been here for 20 years :)
2014-08-23T13:06:27Z pjb: I'm talking to you!
2014-08-23T13:07:14Z |3b|: pjb: right, but you were also correcting something i said to someone who doesn't know the correct answer
2014-08-23T13:07:29Z chitofan: whats the difference between car and cdr vs first and rest?
2014-08-23T13:07:34Z chitofan: is it just readability?
2014-08-23T13:07:43Z |3b|: and i'm obviously not awake enough to get it right on the first try, so i'd rather not risk messing it up again :)
2014-08-23T13:08:35Z pjb:  chitofan: not "just", it's the readability!
2014-08-23T13:08:41Z |3b|: chitofan: first/rest implies you are using it as a list, car/cdr just implies it is a cons which might or might not be a list (or it implies someone is used to old styles of lisp)
2014-08-23T13:08:43Z mood: chitofan: They do the same thing, but FIRST and REST imply working with a list, while CAR and CDR somewhat imply working with cons sells
2014-08-23T13:09:20Z chitofan: ok..
2014-08-23T13:09:22Z chitofan: hehe
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2014-08-23T13:12:15Z whfkvfszjibsaybx: Should i learn lisp
2014-08-23T13:12:20Z pjb: Yes.
2014-08-23T13:12:20Z whfkvfszjibsaybx: For server based programming?
2014-08-23T13:12:27Z pjb: Indeed.
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2014-08-23T13:12:51Z whfkvfszjibsaybx: Is it easy to learn?
2014-08-23T13:12:55Z pjb: Yes.
2014-08-23T13:13:06Z pjb: http://cliki.net/Getting+Started
2014-08-23T13:13:21Z whfkvfszjibsaybx: Thanks i'll check it out
2014-08-23T13:13:37Z chitofan: how do i re-open the REPL after killing it?
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2014-08-23T13:13:55Z pjb: M-x slime RET
2014-08-23T13:14:46Z chitofan: thanks!
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2014-08-23T13:17:49Z chitofan: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143482
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2014-08-23T13:17:58Z chitofan: is there a better way to store my row values?
2014-08-23T13:18:15Z chitofan: if i call it this way
2014-08-23T13:18:27Z chitofan: i have to deal with extra parantheses
2014-08-23T13:19:10Z Xach: chitofan: it seems like a two-dimensional array might come in handy.
2014-08-23T13:19:32Z |3b|: do you need the row1, row2 etc in there?
2014-08-23T13:20:14Z |3b|: if so, (second (first *tile-positions*)) instead of CDR would get you just the list of EMPTY
2014-08-23T13:21:13Z chitofan: ok, thanks :)
2014-08-23T13:25:03Z hitecnologys: H4ns: I'm experiencing some kind of weird drakma behavior. After some time (a few hours or so, I've done a few thousands requests by that time) it stops doing its job: all the requests fail due to timeout. I'm not exactly sure whether it's usocket or drakma but it starts working after restart (not reload, and it does work from another image while it still doesn't work from the current one). Is it a known
2014-08-23T13:25:05Z hitecnologys: problem, something new or it's just me being foolish again?
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2014-08-23T13:26:21Z |3b| wonders if you somehow end up keeping sockets open
2014-08-23T13:26:32Z Xach: "stops doing its job" is a bit vague. in what way does it stop?
2014-08-23T13:26:39Z Xach: oh, sorry.
2014-08-23T13:26:48Z Xach managed to skip a whole line there
2014-08-23T13:26:50Z hitecnologys: All requests fail to be executed.
2014-08-23T13:27:21Z Xach: hitecnologys: if you interrupt it during a request that is about to timeout, i wonder if there would be useful info on the stack.
2014-08-23T13:27:25Z hitecnologys: |3b|: I don't think I did any of that. All I do is simple (drakma:http-request "url").
2014-08-23T13:28:51Z hitecnologys: Xach: seems like it's this get-host-by-name-thing strikes again.
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2014-08-23T13:30:19Z |3b|: hitecnologys: yeah, simple request like that shouldn't be a problem if you are doing them serially
2014-08-23T13:30:45Z hitecnologys: |3b|: yes, I'm doing them in an infinite loop.
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2014-08-23T13:31:11Z hitecnologys: |3b|: I'm also passing some params and using HTML auth, but I don't think that might cause problems.
2014-08-23T13:32:43Z hitecnologys: This is approximately what I get right before it times out: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143483
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2014-08-23T13:33:16Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-08-23T13:33:31Z hitecnologys: Morning, beach.
2014-08-23T13:33:50Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: The only thing I can guess is that the server might be blocking you due to flooding, but I'm suspecting that you're using your own server and this is not the case
2014-08-23T13:34:04Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: yes.
2014-08-23T13:34:27Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: google.com was just to illustrate that it doesn't work for all the rest of sites.
2014-08-23T13:35:01Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: and then it wouldn't explain why it works after restart.
2014-08-23T13:35:18Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: well the restart would be a quick pause
2014-08-23T13:35:45Z Shinmera: but anyway, not sure as I've never run into it before.
2014-08-23T13:35:57Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I've tried stopping requests for quite a long time and then trying again without restart. Doesn't work.
2014-08-23T13:36:33Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: My next vague guess would be some kind of internal caching going bonkers, but I really am just grasping at straws here, I'm sure other people would know better.
2014-08-23T13:36:39Z Xach: hmm, i get that error after a while too. i have always chalked it up to AWS flakiness.
2014-08-23T13:36:40Z |3b|: hitecnologys: does lsof -p  print a reasonably small number of entries?
2014-08-23T13:36:42Z hitecnologys: Also, the bug is reproducable. I've encountered it twice: this day and yesterday.
2014-08-23T13:36:47Z chitofan: _3b and pjb, what lisp do you use
2014-08-23T13:36:52Z chitofan: i tried inputting your functions in the repl
2014-08-23T13:36:59Z |3b| mostly uses sbcl
2014-08-23T13:37:01Z Xach: but not so reproducible
2014-08-23T13:37:05Z chitofan: undefined function valid, validp and map-validp
2014-08-23T13:37:07Z chitofan: :(
2014-08-23T13:37:20Z Xach: chitofan: you have to write those. what it means to be valid varies by context.
2014-08-23T13:37:26Z |3b|: chitofan: you were intended to fill in that part with something that determines if a row is 'valid'
2014-08-23T13:37:29Z chitofan: OMG
2014-08-23T13:37:30Z chitofan: LOL
2014-08-23T13:37:31Z chitofan: ok
2014-08-23T13:37:31Z hitecnologys: |3b|: a dozen or so. Acceptably small, I guess.
2014-08-23T13:37:36Z |3b|: hitecnologys: yeah
2014-08-23T13:38:27Z hitecnologys: And there's also the same code running on another machine. It does seem to still work there. The only difference is --dynamic-space-size and architecture.
2014-08-23T13:38:56Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: can you reproduce it on other implementations?
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2014-08-23T13:39:27Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: I didn't try but I think I can try running the code under CCL for a few hours to see if it breaks.
2014-08-23T13:39:35Z |3b|: hitecnologys: does (sb-bsd-sockets:get-host-by-name "google.com") time out on its own?
2014-08-23T13:40:01Z hitecnologys: Damn. I've just closed the instance without saving its state.
2014-08-23T13:40:07Z hitecnologys: =|
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2014-08-23T13:40:40Z |3b|: wasn't really expecting it to be too informative, so not too big of a loss :)
2014-08-23T13:40:58Z hitecnologys: I suspect it would time out but I can't be sure.
2014-08-23T13:41:04Z |3b|: yeah
2014-08-23T13:41:32Z |3b|: what os/arch are you running?
2014-08-23T13:42:41Z hitecnologys: Linux hitecnologys-laptop 3.15.6-hardened #7 SMP Tue Aug 5 17:45:13 OMST 2014 x86_64 Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-3230M CPU @ 2.60GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux
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2014-08-23T13:45:39Z |3b|: and recent sbcl?
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2014-08-23T13:47:44Z hitecnologys: Not the lastest. 1.2.1.
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2014-08-23T13:49:03Z hitecnologys: Updating is painful because then I would need to rebuild by stupwm and maxima and all the libraries I've got, so I was postponing it.
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2014-08-23T13:51:30Z chitofan: has anyone rewritten 2048 in lisp before?
2014-08-23T13:51:33Z chitofan: how was it?
2014-08-23T13:51:53Z |3b| seems to remember a scheme or guile version
2014-08-23T13:53:41Z |3b|: probably most of the work would be in UI
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2014-08-23T13:54:11Z chitofan: oh, thats discouraging :(
2014-08-23T13:54:34Z chitofan: i already find writing the game logic hard
2014-08-23T13:55:05Z |3b|: it gets easier with practice :)
2014-08-23T13:57:13Z hitecnologys: chitofan: game logic is easy compared to UI.
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2014-08-23T13:58:08Z pessoa: must be a lame game, then, such as all the xbox stuff
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2014-08-23T13:58:36Z |3b|: pessoa: true for many puzzle games, lame or not
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2014-08-23T13:59:01Z |3b|: particularly in CL which doesn't have the 'simple' UI libs some languages have
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2014-08-23T13:59:25Z hitecnologys: pessoa: I personally find sane UI to be much more difficult to program.
2014-08-23T13:59:35Z pessoa: but not for text-based turn-based fantasy role playing games
2014-08-23T13:59:56Z hitecnologys: Text can be difficult too.
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2014-08-23T14:00:13Z |3b|: yeah, if you count parsers in UI for a text game, those can get ugly :)
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2014-08-23T14:01:09Z hitecnologys: Not just parsers. In TUI you usually work with small amounts of graphical primitives and you can't, normally, simply extend it. Things can get hard when you run out of characters.
2014-08-23T14:01:14Z chitofan: i vaguely seem to remember a function that checks conditions one by one then exits if any of the condition evaluates to true
2014-08-23T14:01:49Z hitecnologys: chitofan: FIND-IF or ANYOF.
2014-08-23T14:01:50Z Zhivago: That's when you add color, weight, and scent.
2014-08-23T14:01:57Z |3b| was assuming just printing/reading lines of text, not actual character addressable text UI... those are as messy as graphical ones
2014-08-23T14:02:28Z chitofan: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3936919/checking-whether-every-list-in-a-list-is-null-in-common-lisp
2014-08-23T14:02:29Z hitecnologys: Zhivago: yeah. But weight can be quite confusing on some terminals, I'm trying to avoid using it.
2014-08-23T14:02:31Z chitofan: i think i found xach
2014-08-23T14:03:14Z hitecnologys: chitofan: nobody cares.
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2014-08-23T14:06:39Z pessoa: there are sdl bindings for many common lisp implementations
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2014-08-23T14:12:34Z Xach: chitofan: where was i?
2014-08-23T14:12:56Z pessoa: what is the scent of text?
2014-08-23T14:13:51Z chitofan: just saw your comment on stack overflow :)
2014-08-23T14:13:53Z Zhivago: pessoa: Somewhere between hulk armpit and deranged violet.
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2014-08-23T14:40:48Z chitofan: pjb and |3b|, thanks for all your help and patience with me :)
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2014-08-23T14:41:25Z Xach: i was so excited for a clean build today
2014-08-23T14:41:30Z Xach: then fare broke asdf-finalizers
2014-08-23T14:41:50Z Xach: (it was broken before but the first breakage hid the second from sbcl)
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2014-08-23T14:46:04Z Xach: half a fix being worse than none in this case, from my perspective, in this case
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2014-08-23T14:51:31Z Shinmera: :(
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2014-08-23T14:55:30Z herr: hi all
2014-08-23T14:55:33Z herr:  The scope of the binding of var does not include the list-form, but the result-form is included.
2014-08-23T14:55:47Z Xach: OK!
2014-08-23T14:55:48Z herr: does it mean that var is being copied?
2014-08-23T14:55:54Z Xach: herr: No.
2014-08-23T14:56:28Z herr: hm, ok
2014-08-23T14:56:56Z Xach: Where did you see that sentence?
2014-08-23T14:57:05Z herr: on the clhs
2014-08-23T14:57:12Z herr: about dolisp
2014-08-23T14:57:15Z herr: *dolist
2014-08-23T14:57:41Z herr: i'm trying to group list into tree
2014-08-23T14:57:53Z herr: so i figured out that i need a nested dolist
2014-08-23T14:58:32Z beach: How do you want the tree structure to look?
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2014-08-23T14:59:14Z Xach: It means that you can't refer to VAR in the list form but you can in the result form. But the value of that binding is always nil, so I'm not sure why it's specified that way. Maybe to make some existing implementation work without change.
2014-08-23T14:59:26Z Xach: Always nil in the result form, that is.
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2014-08-23T14:59:44Z pjb: herr: (dolist (var list-form result-form) . body-forms) -> (let ((the-list list-form)) (let ((var …)) … body-forms … result-form …))
2014-08-23T14:59:52Z pjb: herr: indeed.
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2014-08-23T15:00:45Z pjb: herr: but notice that with let, the scope of the variables doesn't include the expressions that initialize those variables. (let ((var1 expr1) (var2 expr2)) …)  var1 and var2 are not visible in expr1 expr2.
2014-08-23T15:01:00Z herr: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143484
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2014-08-23T15:01:09Z herr: that's what i'm trying to do
2014-08-23T15:01:22Z herr: or actually how
2014-08-23T15:02:41Z H4ns: herr: that's a pretty tough read
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2014-08-23T15:03:10Z pjb: Would you have a docstring instead?
2014-08-23T15:03:23Z H4ns: herr: you want to return a list of lists, each containing the elements from the input lisp for which the equal-test-fn returns a true value?
2014-08-23T15:03:38Z herr: H4ns: yes! exactly!
2014-08-23T15:04:19Z pjb: What about: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.list:equivalence-classes list-of-list :test equal-test-fn) ?
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2014-08-23T15:06:45Z H4ns: herr: your problem is that in when you (push a b), you are not modifying out
2014-08-23T15:07:26Z H4ns: herr: besides, what's the if/progn?  use when.  but that'll not fix the problem.
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2014-08-23T15:12:55Z herr: H4ns: give me a second
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2014-08-23T15:19:34Z Adlai: has there ever been a lisp dialect where the reader turns comments into a form which didn't affect execution, but could be operated on by macros?
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2014-08-23T15:20:13Z Adlai is imagining a midground between literate programming and documented code
2014-08-23T15:20:34Z Adlai: so you put comments in various places, and macros magically turn it into :documentation strings
2014-08-23T15:20:47Z Zhivago: I seem to recall someone mentioning that clojure does something like that.
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2014-08-23T15:41:42Z sam``````: H4ns: so why doesn't (push a b) modify out, but (push a (cdr b)) does?
2014-08-23T15:42:09Z Adlai: sam``````: try macroexpanding (push a b)
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2014-08-23T15:43:36Z H4ns: sam``````: b, as a variable, is independent of out.  the push operation changes the binding of b so that it points to the new cons that holds a.  the cdr of that cons points to the former value of b.  that does not affect out.
2014-08-23T15:43:37Z pjb: sam``````: because in the first the place is b, while in the later it's (cdr b).
2014-08-23T15:44:03Z H4ns: sam``````: contrasted to that, (push a (cdr b)) modifies the list that both b and out point to, in a destructive fashion.
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2014-08-23T16:11:31Z AeroNotix: Zhivago: I don't think clojure does do that
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2014-08-23T16:12:25Z AeroNotix: Zhivago: https://gist.github.com/AeroNotix/847c786f20bb7e938596
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2014-08-23T16:14:55Z Zhivago: Look at (comment ...)
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2014-08-23T16:16:51Z AeroNotix: Zhivago: ah that's different
2014-08-23T16:17:26Z AeroNotix: Zhivago: https://gist.github.com/AeroNotix/848dec82e6ff56809c0b
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2014-08-23T16:21:13Z AeroNotix: Xach: just to confirm -- you'll be putting that new vesion of Djula in Quicklisp next month
2014-08-23T16:21:16Z AeroNotix: right?
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2014-08-23T16:24:56Z Xach: AeroNotix: yes
2014-08-23T16:25:07Z AeroNotix: Xach: thanks
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2014-08-23T16:36:38Z francogrex: is it possible to (break) for debugging purposes when a function is called in a program -- *without* inserting the break in the src code (not available etc)?
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2014-08-23T16:41:28Z phadthai: francogrex: if your implementation supports inserting breakpoints at functions, that may be a useful way
2014-08-23T16:41:40Z phadthai: in the debugger
2014-08-23T16:42:07Z phadthai: s/functions/function calls/
2014-08-23T16:42:56Z |3b|: i think TRACE can break on function call in sbcl
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2014-08-23T16:46:09Z francogrex: sbcl. i will try trce
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2014-08-23T16:54:20Z hitecnologys: Aha, got it again on SBCL. (sb-bsd-sockets:get-host-by-name "google.com") times out. CCL is still... compiling.
2014-08-23T16:57:23Z francogrex: ok |3b| trace works like you said in sbcl (:break option). This is very good. I will see in clisp if it is also the case (bc clisp is more interesting from a debugger's option)
2014-08-23T16:58:54Z francogrex: [:pre-break-if form] ; Trace moves into break-loop before function call .. and post
2014-08-23T16:59:04Z francogrex: so that's also nice in clisp. Thx
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2014-08-23T17:13:40Z |3b|: hitecnologys: hmm, might check system logs and see if anything strange shows up
2014-08-23T17:14:49Z hitecnologys: |3b|: no, nothing in dmesg and logs.
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2014-08-23T17:17:41Z |3b|: hitecnologys: anything else going on in that image aside from 1 thread doing http requests?
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2014-08-23T17:20:30Z |3b| can't think of much that would make getaddrinfo stop working for a single process, aside from maybe somehow breaking the locking in the libc
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2014-08-23T17:20:50Z |3b|: and can't think of any obvious ways to do that either
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2014-08-23T17:30:17Z oleo: seems like paste.lisp.org gets filled with adversaries/porn
2014-08-23T17:30:20Z oleo: lol
2014-08-23T17:30:53Z jonh: hehe
2014-08-23T17:33:50Z hitecnologys: |3b|: some web pages processing.
2014-08-23T17:33:52Z herr: hmmmmmmm
2014-08-23T17:34:04Z herr: does find goes trough nested lists?
2014-08-23T17:35:10Z Adlai: herr: it only traverses one level of list structure. you can use :key to descend further, but it'll make the same descent on each item
2014-08-23T17:35:57Z hitecnologys: |3b|: I'll do some more testing. I've already got this three times in a row this day. Doesn't sound like a coincidence.
2014-08-23T17:36:47Z herr: Adlai: ok, thx!
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2014-08-23T17:41:53Z herr: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143487
2014-08-23T17:41:57Z herr: ok
2014-08-23T17:42:06Z herr: i'm trying to write this code
2014-08-23T17:42:24Z herr: but i appear to miss something
2014-08-23T17:43:16Z herr: aaarrrgh
2014-08-23T17:43:20Z herr knows
2014-08-23T17:44:08Z Adlai: Zhivago, AeroNotix, thanks
2014-08-23T17:45:43Z herr: well, same gotcha again
2014-08-23T17:45:50Z herr: push at the end ^^
2014-08-23T17:48:55Z Adlai doesn't see a push in 143487
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2014-08-23T17:49:42Z herr: Adlai: yes, but it has other dumb thing in it
2014-08-23T17:49:57Z herr: i realised why it will not work in the second i posted it
2014-08-23T17:54:58Z herr: anyway
2014-08-23T17:55:18Z herr: what is the best way to push back to the list?
2014-08-23T17:55:42Z sam``````: (rplacd (last list) (list obj))?
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2014-08-23T17:55:59Z Adlai: or the equivalent (push thing (cdr (last list)))
2014-08-23T17:56:15Z Adlai: although both of these have to traverse the entire list each time
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2014-08-23T17:56:45Z Adlai: the alternative is to keep a reference to the last cons, in sam``````'s example, the (list obj)
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2014-08-23T18:12:33Z herr: Adlai: sadly i can't quite keep reference easily
2014-08-23T18:12:44Z herr: beacuse i don't quite have it
2014-08-23T18:13:16Z herr: oooor
2014-08-23T18:13:39Z herr: no, no or
2014-08-23T18:14:10Z herr: unless i can push to front and then somehow force changing begining of the lisp
2014-08-23T18:14:13Z herr: *list
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2014-08-23T18:14:42Z herr: or actually, change all symbols pointing to the cons of the list
2014-08-23T18:14:52Z herr: but i don't think it is possible
2014-08-23T18:15:09Z herr would love to have double linked list
2014-08-23T18:17:00Z Adlai: my "cheat" in such a situation is to do all the pushing to the head of the list, and reverse it at the end of the algorithm
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2014-08-23T18:18:42Z Xach: That is very very common.
2014-08-23T18:20:34Z Adlai: i'm sure i picked it up sometime from lurking here :)
2014-08-23T18:20:35Z herr: Adlai: i would love to that, but i cannot
2014-08-23T18:21:01Z herr: b
2014-08-23T18:21:05Z herr: aaargth
2014-08-23T18:21:25Z herr: is it only me trying to use ctrl+x b in console window?
2014-08-23T18:22:20Z dim: My way around it is to use M-x shell ;-)
2014-08-23T18:22:30Z Adlai: you're lucky, i end up trying to delete words in browser tabs with C-w
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2014-08-23T18:56:08Z cy: Adlai: HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
2014-08-23T18:56:30Z cy: Adlai: *C-w* WAIT NO COME BACK
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2014-08-23T19:00:18Z Adlai: something like that, although my officemates would look at me funny if i shouted like that :P
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2014-08-23T19:04:24Z cy: Adlai: you know about ctrl+shift+t, right?
2014-08-23T19:04:55Z Adlai: doesn't help when the OS has garbage collected all your session keys
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2014-08-23T19:05:21Z cy: fun
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2014-08-23T19:59:09Z gzw: Serious question for someone who has been out of the CL world for a while: is #lisp the preferred alternative to comp.lang.lisp?
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2014-08-23T20:04:36Z tokenrove: it's my contention that you'll get better help here than on cll, perhaps because the trolling is more easily contained here, but i guess they're not easily comparable, and i don't speak with knowledge of the current state of cll.
2014-08-23T20:05:14Z tokenrove: to me, the pro mailing list together with #lisp replace most of the utility of cll
2014-08-23T20:05:36Z faheem: tokenrove: pro mailing list? what is that?
2014-08-23T20:06:02Z faheem: gzw: SO is also an option. depending on the question
2014-08-23T20:06:14Z faheem: Stack Overflow that is
2014-08-23T20:06:22Z tokenrove: (which is not to say that much of the use of pro is as on-topic to the list charter as i would like)
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2014-08-23T20:07:00Z tokenrove: faheem: http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.cl-pro
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2014-08-23T20:09:07Z herr: any function to print data structure with tree formatting?
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2014-08-23T20:13:11Z wsg: herr: what structure, for example?
2014-08-23T20:13:46Z herr: wsg: nested list (aka tree)
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2014-08-23T20:14:38Z herr: btw, i used to think that maximize in loop works by checking if value returned from form is maximal, and if is, keep the argument (not the form)
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2014-08-23T20:16:26Z herr: oh well, maybe i will finish this tomorrow
2014-08-23T20:21:28Z herr: good night all
2014-08-23T20:21:37Z herr: and keep on hacking in the free world
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2014-08-23T20:47:54Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
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2014-08-23T20:53:17Z wsg: good evening :)
2014-08-23T20:53:22Z oleo: evening beach!
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2014-08-24T00:16:42Z codygman: Can anyone help me fix these errors I'm getting with slime? http://pastebin.com/R9gPj0BF
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2014-08-24T00:17:11Z codygman: I'm not sure why it's trying to access the non-existant files at /usr/share/common-lisp/source/slime/
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2014-08-24T00:26:43Z codygman: Nevermind, I seemed to have solved it by ensuring I totally removed my distro-installed slime version. I envision this problem happening for a lot of people.
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2014-08-24T00:30:25Z Xach: codeburg: it is common advice here to avoid distro-provided lisp infrastructure.
2014-08-24T00:30:40Z Xach: in some cases it works well. people who use distros that do it well usually know and don't need the advice.
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2014-08-24T00:49:34Z bhyde: tempted by Xach's post, i tried to use cl-autowrap ... so anybody successfully build c2ffi on the Mac?
2014-08-24T00:49:51Z Xach didn't try yet
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2014-08-24T00:55:20Z bhyde: looks like it requires llvm HEAD, built by hand, which will be fun
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2014-08-24T00:58:29Z bhyde: i think i'll pop the stack and go back to the previous shinny object ... gbbopen
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2014-08-24T00:59:30Z Xach: heh
2014-08-24T01:04:12Z bhyde: i maintain a very deep stack of shinny objects
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2014-08-24T08:35:30Z [6502]: crazy question: why instead of leaving the burden of code walking on programmers wasn't a right-before-compile hook made available (i.e. a macro that can filter what is about to be processed by the compiler)?
2014-08-24T08:36:17Z |3b|: lack of ability to see into the future?
2014-08-24T08:36:34Z |3b|: though there is macroexpand hook
2014-08-24T08:36:58Z [6502]: oh...
2014-08-24T08:37:04Z [6502]: me learns something new
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2014-08-24T08:37:21Z |3b|: and if they could see the future, there were probably lots of better features to use it on :)
2014-08-24T08:37:29Z |3b|: clhs *macroexpand-hook*
2014-08-24T08:37:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_mexp_h.htm
2014-08-24T08:38:31Z |3b|: doesn't help with special forms or normal functions though
2014-08-24T08:38:38Z [6502]: oh... but that works only on macros; not on all forms about to be compiled
2014-08-24T08:39:12Z [6502]: macroexpand hook seems more a debugging feature than a programming feature
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2014-08-24T08:46:56Z isBEKaml_mobile: Hi, has anyone actually managed to implement a clos-like object system for any of the JVM based languages?
2014-08-24T08:46:57Z H4ns: isBEKaml_mobile: abcl is a cl implementation running on the jvm.  you can't get more clos-like than that.
2014-08-24T08:46:57Z [6502]: isBEKaml_mobile: isn't ABCL a JVM-based language?
2014-08-24T08:46:57Z H4ns: isBEKaml_mobile: other than that, you'll have to explain what "clos-like" means to you.
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2014-08-24T08:46:57Z isBEKaml_mobile: Ah, abcl. I forgot about that one. :)
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2014-08-24T08:48:08Z isBEKaml_mobile: All my searches brought up discussions about clos and clojure. And why it didn't fully implement close
2014-08-24T08:49:00Z isBEKaml_mobile: H4ns, [6502]: thanks!
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2014-08-24T11:51:58Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-08-24T11:54:14Z oleo: morning beach
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2014-08-24T11:56:31Z beach just came up with a method for improving the :FROM-END T code in SICL.
2014-08-24T11:57:09Z beach: Another paper to write!
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2014-08-24T12:09:41Z beach: I also know what to do as a first step to improve McCLIM.
2014-08-24T12:09:52Z H4ns: what's that?
2014-08-24T12:09:59Z beach: I should replace the current CLX backend by one that uses a single top-level window.
2014-08-24T12:10:17Z beach: Then I can rip out the coordinate swizzling code that gilberth wrote.
2014-08-24T12:10:30Z beach: It creates a lot of problems for scrolling.
2014-08-24T12:11:07Z beach: Such a change would also be more similar to what I do in CLIMatis.
2014-08-24T12:12:48Z beach: Then, with that change, I can start implementing a predictable behavior for panes with explicit space requirements, also similar to what I do in CLIMatis.
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2014-08-24T12:15:15Z beach: I *think* that the CLIM II spec even allows for the space requirements to be factored out into a separate pane.  The reason I think that is that there is no guarantee that declaring a single pane results in the creation of a single pane.
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2014-08-24T12:16:10Z beach: Not that it matters much.  A separate pane or a mixin into all other panes doesn't make much of a difference.
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2014-08-24T12:32:33Z beach: Does anyone know the default size of a call stack in SBCL?
2014-08-24T12:32:44Z beach: I just need an order of magnitude.
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2014-08-24T12:33:55Z beach: Never mind.  I'll write a few test programs to find out.
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2014-08-24T12:36:55Z beach: It is bigger than I thought.  I can easily make 10000 recursive calls in a small function.
2014-08-24T12:37:09Z beach: I wonder whether such a limit is typical in other implementations too.
2014-08-24T12:37:56Z beach: 10000 recursive calls with a small function must be around 1MB.
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2014-08-24T12:44:01Z ggole: Depends on the size of the frame, doesn't it? It's only 80k if the only thing on the stack is the return address.
2014-08-24T12:44:46Z beach: Right.
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2014-08-24T12:45:34Z beach: My function is (defun ff (n) (if (zerop n) 1 (+ n (ff (1- n)))))
2014-08-24T12:45:55Z beach: So there is probably a frame pointer and at least one local variable.
2014-08-24T12:46:12Z beach: This computer has a 32-bit processor.
2014-08-24T12:47:05Z beach: So it could be as little as 120kB.
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2014-08-24T12:48:17Z ggole: SUB ESP, 12 for me, so a frame size of 12: yep, 120kb
2014-08-24T12:48:54Z beach: On the other hand, I can actually make as many as 60000 recursive calls, so that would be 60000 * 3 * 4 = 720kB
2014-08-24T12:48:55Z ggole: 32 pages?
2014-08-24T12:49:28Z beach: A page is still 4k?
2014-08-24T12:49:58Z ggole: That's what I was assuming, yeah
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2014-08-24T12:51:10Z beach: So at least 180 pages.
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2014-08-24T12:51:36Z beach: That's all I need to know actually.  Now I know I can safely do a few hundred recursive calls.
2014-08-24T12:52:35Z chitofan: if i have a list set as '(empty empty empty empty)
2014-08-24T12:52:49Z chitofan: what function can i use to detect if there's at least one non-empty value in it?
2014-08-24T12:53:14Z beach: clhs find
2014-08-24T12:53:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_.htm
2014-08-24T12:53:51Z beach: (find 'empty list :test-not #'eq) or something like that.
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2014-08-24T12:54:23Z H4ns: (some #'identity the-list) might work as well
2014-08-24T12:54:49Z ggole: (loop for elt in list always (eq elt 'empty))
2014-08-24T12:55:22Z H4ns: ah, right.  i was not looking properly, sorry.
2014-08-24T12:56:26Z chitofan: thank yew :)
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2014-08-24T13:02:57Z chitofan: is there a function for listing how many numbers there are in a list?
2014-08-24T13:03:11Z chitofan: numberp returns t or f, but doesnt tell me how many numbers there are
2014-08-24T13:03:29Z H4ns: count-if maybe?
2014-08-24T13:03:50Z H4ns: (count-if #'numberp '(1 2 3 a b c))
2014-08-24T13:04:50Z chitofan: thanks!
2014-08-24T13:04:59Z beach: chitofan: You can't use NUMBERP on your list, because it will alway return false since the list is not a number.
2014-08-24T13:05:09Z beach: *always
2014-08-24T13:06:09Z beach: chitofan: So you need to use it on the elements of the list, as H4ns suggests.
2014-08-24T13:06:25Z chitofan: okay, i'll remember that :)
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2014-08-24T13:19:07Z chitofan: what do i do
2014-08-24T13:19:13Z chitofan: when my code gets unnecessarily long
2014-08-24T13:19:28Z chitofan: what can i do*
2014-08-24T13:19:59Z H4ns: that is not a real question.  please be more specific.
2014-08-24T13:20:17Z H4ns: unless the answer that you were looking for was "write shorter code"
2014-08-24T13:20:34Z chitofan: how to write shorter code :3
2014-08-24T13:20:41Z H4ns: "with the keyboard"
2014-08-24T13:21:11Z chitofan: without changing the functionality of my code?
2014-08-24T13:21:27Z H4ns: really, can you be more specific?
2014-08-24T13:21:53Z chitofan: okay
2014-08-24T13:22:04Z chitofan: do you ever have a time where you looked at your code and thought
2014-08-24T13:22:13Z chitofan: wow, this is way longer than it should be to do what it accomplishes
2014-08-24T13:22:17Z chitofan: then what do you do?
2014-08-24T13:22:38Z H4ns: if i am ever in that situation, i rewrite it to make it shorter.
2014-08-24T13:24:55Z H4ns: chitofan: maybe, if you shared your source code on paste.lisp.org, you could solicit some real answers instead of this stupidness.
2014-08-24T13:25:15Z chitofan: one moment
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2014-08-24T13:26:49Z beach: chitofan: The standard trick is to use abstractions such as functions and macros.
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2014-08-24T13:44:36Z Xach feels good about a new quicklisp dist update today
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2014-08-24T13:44:57Z beach: Congratulations!
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2014-08-24T13:46:12Z Xach: Does anyone have a link to info about the original purpose of the "pro" mailing list?
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2014-08-24T13:49:28Z beach: Nikodemus gives this link: http://lists.common-lisp.net/mailman/listinfo/pro
2014-08-24T13:49:33Z beach: But it is dead.
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2014-08-24T13:49:46Z shka: Xach: bravo!
2014-08-24T13:50:02Z shka: though i have a strange bug
2014-08-24T13:50:06Z shka: question
2014-08-24T13:50:07Z Xach: beach: there is a new page, but it does not contain anything really useful.
2014-08-24T13:50:17Z beach: I see.
2014-08-24T13:50:18Z H4ns: archive.org maybe?
2014-08-24T13:50:20Z Xach checks his email for the original announcement
2014-08-24T13:50:28Z shka: can object instance be somehow null?
2014-08-24T13:50:45Z shka: since i have something funky in my code :/
2014-08-24T13:51:24Z beach: shka: NIL is an object, yes.
2014-08-24T13:51:39Z beach: shka: But maybe that's not what you mean.
2014-08-24T13:51:52Z shka: beach: no
2014-08-24T13:52:16Z shka: let my try to show any example
2014-08-24T13:52:42Z shka: i have a list (#someobject (something tomething something))
2014-08-24T13:52:56Z shka: at least that's how it shows in the repl
2014-08-24T13:53:21Z Xach: more likely #<...>
2014-08-24T13:53:40Z beach: Does the `#' indicate that it is an instance of STANDARD-OBJECT?
2014-08-24T13:53:55Z shka: now i'm trying to (setf (slot-value (car that-list)) value)
2014-08-24T13:54:00Z shka: Xach: indeed
2014-08-24T13:54:08Z shka: beach: no, it is user defined object
2014-08-24T13:54:15Z Xach: shka: you should paste real code instead of this pseudocode - i think you are omitting important bits from the pseudocode.
2014-08-24T13:54:25Z shka: most likely
2014-08-24T13:54:26Z Xach: for example, slot-value takes two arguments.
2014-08-24T13:54:34Z shka: yes, symbol
2014-08-24T13:54:37Z beach: shka: A "user defined object" is an instance of STANDARD-OBJECT.
2014-08-24T13:54:41Z Xach: the real error would help, too. paste.lisp.org is a good place to paste.
2014-08-24T13:54:50Z shka: beach: well, ok
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2014-08-24T13:55:20Z shka: Xach: ok, i will paste whole code now and try to paste the error
2014-08-24T13:55:34Z shka: hopefully we can solve this since it is driving me crazy :D
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2014-08-24T13:55:50Z shka: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143494
2014-08-24T13:55:53Z shka: here is the code
2014-08-24T13:55:56Z shka: it is a bit long
2014-08-24T13:56:23Z shka: but the problem is located in the set-object-positions function
2014-08-24T13:56:49Z shka: (setf (slot-value (print (car it)) 'm-position)  (get-position placed it 0))
2014-08-24T13:56:53Z shka: here
2014-08-24T13:57:08Z shka: i added print to make sure that i did not screw anything
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2014-08-24T13:58:16Z Xach: What is the structure of object-with-position?
2014-08-24T13:58:22Z Xach: sorry, object-with-distance?
2014-08-24T13:58:39Z Xach: A vector of something?
2014-08-24T13:59:01Z shka: Xach: one second
2014-08-24T13:59:46Z shka: Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143494#1
2014-08-24T13:59:56Z shka: this is example taken from repl
2014-08-24T14:01:23Z shka: Xach: i don't know why, but it will run 3 times and then fail at the last element
2014-08-24T14:02:19Z shka: because argument is   ((# (("test4" 5) ("test2" 5)))) (according to sbcl)
2014-08-24T14:02:33Z shka: i find this strange
2014-08-24T14:03:38Z shka: thanks all for the help :)
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2014-08-24T14:05:12Z beach: shka: You didn't give the error message.
2014-08-24T14:05:31Z chitofan: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143495
2014-08-24T14:05:51Z chitofan: why does it give nil values
2014-08-24T14:05:55Z chitofan: even when it meets the conditions?
2014-08-24T14:06:14Z H4ns: chitofan: because the return value of the first if is never returned
2014-08-24T14:06:44Z H4ns: (if (numberp x) t nil) can be replaced by (numberp x)
2014-08-24T14:07:44Z H4ns: chitofan: there, one way for you to make your code shorter :)
2014-08-24T14:07:48Z beach: chitofan: (if (equal direction (or 'left 'up)) doesn't do what you think.
2014-08-24T14:07:52Z shka: beach: oh, ok
2014-08-24T14:08:23Z chitofan: okay :) thanks!
2014-08-24T14:08:29Z chitofan: im learning sorry for the rookie mistakes
2014-08-24T14:08:47Z beach: chitofan: (or 'left 'up) always returns the symbol LEFT.
2014-08-24T14:08:59Z shka: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143494#2
2014-08-24T14:09:08Z shka: beach: is this error sufficiant?
2014-08-24T14:09:42Z beach: shka: You call the function with a list.
2014-08-24T14:09:51Z isoraqathedh: Also symbols used as data like that, I hear, isn't the best idea.
2014-08-24T14:10:05Z beach: shka: Not with a sequence object.
2014-08-24T14:10:22Z shka: beach: how did you figured this out?
2014-08-24T14:10:30Z beach: shka: The error message says so.
2014-08-24T14:10:41Z beach: shka: The list of arguments is given.
2014-08-24T14:10:57Z beach: shka: There is a single element in the list of arguments, and that element is a list.
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2014-08-24T14:11:31Z shka: beach: yes, but did you seen the structure?
2014-08-24T14:11:41Z shka: it is on the same paste.lisp page
2014-08-24T14:12:10Z beach: shka: It doesn't matter.  You can not use a slot accessor on a list, because lists don't have slots.
2014-08-24T14:12:13Z shka: it runs on 3 first elements of the vector and then fails at the 4
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2014-08-24T14:12:49Z shka: beach: you know that this print in my code prints actually any object?
2014-08-24T14:13:01Z beach: shka: I have no idea.
2014-08-24T14:13:11Z pjb: what you mean.
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2014-08-24T14:13:44Z beach: shka: I just know that you call the slot accessor giving it a list rather than an instance of STANDARD-OBJECT.
2014-08-24T14:14:04Z shka: beach: but it is not any list, really
2014-08-24T14:14:04Z beach: shka: I assume then that the fourth element of the vector you are talking about is a list.
2014-08-24T14:14:37Z shka: beach: well, that's why this is a odd
2014-08-24T14:15:09Z shka: because i'm doing: #((# (("test2" 5))) (# (("test3" 5) ("test1" 5))) (# (("test4" 5) ("t
2014-08-24T14:15:16Z shka: aaargh
2014-08-24T14:15:18Z shka: sorry
2014-08-24T14:15:28Z shka:  (setf (slot-value (print-me (car it)) 'm-position)
2014-08-24T14:15:28Z shka: 		     (get-position placed it 0))
2014-08-24T14:15:30Z shka: here
2014-08-24T14:15:38Z shka: beach: please, note car
2014-08-24T14:16:21Z shka: and print-me prints formated output of the it object
2014-08-24T14:16:33Z shka: or rather formated slots values
2014-08-24T14:16:44Z pjb: How would it do that, when you give it only the (car it)?
2014-08-24T14:17:04Z pjb: Do you scan the memory for all the cons cell that contain (car it)?  How do you know which one is the one bound to it?
2014-08-24T14:17:50Z chitofan: beach, how do i make a workable version of (or 'left 'up)?
2014-08-24T14:18:01Z beach: shka: Paste the backtrace when you get the error message.
2014-08-24T14:18:04Z shka: pjb: tbh i don't understand what you are trying to say
2014-08-24T14:18:16Z pjb: (member direction '(left right))
2014-08-24T14:18:18Z shka: beach: any easy way to do that with slime?
2014-08-24T14:18:24Z pjb: shka: you are imprecise!
2014-08-24T14:18:34Z H4ns: chitofan: (member foo '(left up)) is one way
2014-08-24T14:18:47Z shka: pjb: probabbly, but how to be more precise?
2014-08-24T14:18:47Z chitofan: why can't i use or?
2014-08-24T14:18:51Z pjb: shka: you have (print-me (car it)) and you say that: "and print-me prints formated output of the it object" which is very hardly possible.
2014-08-24T14:18:57Z H4ns: chitofan: because it does something different.
2014-08-24T14:19:11Z pjb: chitofan: you can use or: (or (eql direction 'left) (eql direction 'right))
2014-08-24T14:19:15Z H4ns: chitofan: look at the spec for or and member and compare the description of what they do.
2014-08-24T14:19:22Z shka: pjb: in fact it just prints slot values
2014-08-24T14:19:28Z pjb: shka: saying that (print-me (car it)) prints (car it) instead of it!
2014-08-24T14:19:51Z shka: pjb: can you stop shouting, please?
2014-08-24T14:19:51Z pjb: so saying that (print-me (car it)) prints the slots of the object returned by (car it) instead of it!
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2014-08-24T14:20:09Z pjb: shka: don't be so sensitive!
2014-08-24T14:20:15Z shka: OK
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2014-08-24T14:21:01Z shka: pjb: DO YOU KNOW THAT IT DOES NOT BRING ME ANY CLOSER TO THE SOLUTION?
2014-08-24T14:21:28Z H4ns: shka: please do not shout back.  he needs it for his self-esteem.
2014-08-24T14:21:33Z pjb: Yes, indeed you seem more concerned by bangs than by lisp…
2014-08-24T14:21:43Z shka: lol
2014-08-24T14:22:27Z shka: beach: sorry, to bother you, but is there any "special" way to save backtrace?
2014-08-24T14:22:47Z pjb: shka: don't you use emacs? Just copy and paste!
2014-08-24T14:23:31Z shka: pjb: yeah, but i thought that there may be some kind of command to copy formated output
2014-08-24T14:24:03Z pjb: emacs buffers just contain text, so any text command can apply.
2014-08-24T14:24:58Z shka: beach: here is the backtrace http://paste.lisp.org/display/143494#3
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2014-08-24T14:25:46Z pjb: shka: you see? You're calling a generic function with this list as argument: (# (("test4" 5) ("test2" 5)))
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2014-08-24T14:26:01Z pjb: when called with arguments ((# (("test4" 5) ("test2" 5)))).
2014-08-24T14:26:01Z pjb:  
2014-08-24T14:26:05Z pjb: this gives the list of arguments.
2014-08-24T14:26:07Z shka: pjb: no, that's what log says
2014-08-24T14:26:17Z shka: this can't be happening ^^
2014-08-24T14:26:21Z pjb: It's a list that contains only one argument, the list: (# (("test4" 5) ("test2" 5)))
2014-08-24T14:26:49Z pjb: shka: you can believe the backtrace and error message, or you can believe in your fantasy world full of bangs and uppercase letters.
2014-08-24T14:27:20Z shka: pjb: can you take a look at vector that i'm passing to the function first?
2014-08-24T14:27:48Z shka: and at code that actually process that vector?
2014-08-24T14:29:44Z pjb: I don't have the *seq* variable definition to test your code.
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2014-08-24T14:30:33Z shka: pjb: that's why it is pasted
2014-08-24T14:30:45Z shka: (it is printed out by the function)
2014-08-24T14:30:54Z chitofan: guys, (member 'left '(left up)) gives me (left up)
2014-08-24T14:31:01Z chitofan: i meant for left and up to be strings
2014-08-24T14:31:10Z pjb: shka: If you mean the annotation #1, #< means unreadable object.
2014-08-24T14:31:21Z H4ns: chitofan: (left up) is a true value
2014-08-24T14:31:44Z chitofan: oh
2014-08-24T14:31:48Z chitofan: but why does it return me the list?
2014-08-24T14:31:48Z pjb: chitofan: Then write (let ((string "left")) (member string  (list string "up"))) --> ("left" "up")
2014-08-24T14:31:54Z H4ns: chitofan: but you have no clue.  you should really read through an introduction.
2014-08-24T14:32:03Z H4ns: chitofan: look at the spec entry for member, it tells you what it does.
2014-08-24T14:32:05Z pjb: chitofan: don't be concerned by the list. Any value that's not CL:NIL  is considered to be true.
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2014-08-24T14:33:05Z chitofan: no, i do understand a list is a true value
2014-08-24T14:33:13Z shka: pjb: this? http://paste.lisp.org/display/143494,1/raw
2014-08-24T14:33:17Z chitofan: but my function still doesnt work :(
2014-08-24T14:33:31Z shka: pjb: what does unreadable object means?
2014-08-24T14:33:32Z pjb: chitofan: again, #< cannot be read back!  It is an unreadable value!
2014-08-24T14:33:36Z pjb: I cannot do anything with that!
2014-08-24T14:33:48Z pjb: Try: (read-from-string "#")
2014-08-24T14:35:13Z chitofan: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143496
2014-08-24T14:35:43Z pjb: chitofan: your comment is wrong: numberp returns a generalized boolean.
2014-08-24T14:35:43Z H4ns: chitofan: as i said like an hour ago, the return value of your first if is never returned.
2014-08-24T14:35:59Z chitofan: WHY
2014-08-24T14:36:07Z chitofan: i tested the individual if conditions
2014-08-24T14:36:08Z H4ns: chitofan: also, use WHEN if there is no else clause.  furthermore, insert newlines here and there.
2014-08-24T14:36:16Z H4ns: chitofan: why should it return?
2014-08-24T14:36:28Z shka: well, i'm lost
2014-08-24T14:36:34Z pjb: chitofan: because defun expands to a lambda, and a lambda body is wrapped in a progn and
2014-08-24T14:36:35Z pjb: clhs progn
2014-08-24T14:36:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_progn.htm
2014-08-24T14:36:44Z chitofan: (numberp (car row)) should return t
2014-08-24T14:36:55Z pjb: shka: give us your (defvar *seq* (list …)) expression so we can build the same objects.
2014-08-24T14:37:00Z pjb: chitofan: no!
2014-08-24T14:37:01Z H4ns: chitofan: yes.  it does that, but your function always returns the return value of the second if
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2014-08-24T14:37:04Z pjb: clhs numberp
2014-08-24T14:37:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_nump.htm
2014-08-24T14:37:07Z H4ns: chitofan: the first if has no effect at all.
2014-08-24T14:37:14Z pjb: chitofan: read that f_nump page!
2014-08-24T14:37:22Z shka: !
2014-08-24T14:37:44Z H4ns: chitofan: instead of IF or WHEN, you could use CASE
2014-08-24T14:37:52Z H4ns: chitofan: or COND maybe.
2014-08-24T14:37:54Z shka: or cond
2014-08-24T14:38:02Z shka: H4ns: ninja!
2014-08-24T14:38:06Z pjb: in this situation, CASE would do nicely.
2014-08-24T14:38:13Z chitofan: wait, i want to understand why the return value of my first if is never return
2014-08-24T14:38:16Z chitofan: returned*
2014-08-24T14:38:22Z pjb: chitofan: then read clhs progn!
2014-08-24T14:38:24Z pjb: clhs progn
2014-08-24T14:38:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_progn.htm
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2014-08-24T14:38:47Z H4ns: chitofan: the return value of a function is the last expression evaluated.
2014-08-24T14:38:51Z shka: chitofan: can you post link to your code?
2014-08-24T14:39:04Z H4ns: chitofan: is your first IF the last expression in the function body?
2014-08-24T14:39:08Z shka: please?
2014-08-24T14:39:31Z H4ns: chitofan: it is not.  thus, its value is not returned.  remember that the last expression is always returned, not some other expression.
2014-08-24T14:40:50Z shka: chitofan: btw, you most likely don't need any progn
2014-08-24T14:41:24Z pjb: shka: you don't have a  choice !  Read what I write!  defun contains a lambda which contains progn!  You can't do otherwise!
2014-08-24T14:41:53Z pjb: (actually defun expands to (lambda (…) (block fname …)) and it's block that has the progn.)
2014-08-24T14:42:09Z H4ns: no progn is needed, but the body of a defun is evaluated under the same rules as a progn (i.e. the last expression's value is returned)
2014-08-24T14:42:12Z shka: chitofan: (unless you are writting a macro you usually don't need any explicit progn)
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2014-08-24T14:42:49Z pjb: but you still need to know where progns are hidden.
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2014-08-24T14:47:44Z chitofan: if i use WHEN instead of IF, won't it still return the last expression evaluated even if i want it to return the expression from the first WHEN?
2014-08-24T14:47:50Z H4ns: chitofan: no
2014-08-24T14:48:06Z pjb: chitofan: it doesn't matter what what expression you have, only the last is used for the result.
2014-08-24T14:48:15Z H4ns: chitofan: why would it?  was something in my description unclear?
2014-08-24T14:48:34Z H4ns: chitofan: did i say that the last expression of the function body is returned unless some other expression is WHEN?
2014-08-24T14:49:22Z pjb: H4ns: perhaps we should mention the big secret of progn: only the last expresssion is used as return value.
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2014-08-24T14:51:19Z shka: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143494#4
2014-08-24T14:51:21Z shka: lol
2014-08-24T14:51:47Z H4ns: ieh
2014-08-24T14:51:57Z H4ns: shka: and the progn is not needed
2014-08-24T14:55:15Z shka: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143494#5
2014-08-24T14:55:17Z shka: ok
2014-08-24T14:55:22Z shka: pjb: and now what?
2014-08-24T14:55:35Z shka: do you still want to say that i pass a list to the slot value?
2014-08-24T14:55:52Z pjb: How do you want us to run your code?  object-with-distance is not defined!!!
2014-08-24T14:55:59Z shka: since this code suffers from the very same problem
2014-08-24T14:56:20Z H4ns: shka: maybe you should try debugging the problem in isolation rather than here.
2014-08-24T14:56:23Z pjb: We cannot run it since it is incomplete!
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2014-08-24T14:57:18Z shka: pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143494#6
2014-08-24T14:57:43Z shka: pjb: i posted a fragment since i noticed that you have problem with reading larger code
2014-08-24T14:57:59Z pjb: I still don't have the value of *seq*
2014-08-24T14:58:05Z shka: eeeh
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2014-08-24T14:58:24Z pjb: You are just making us losing your time.  It's over.
2014-08-24T14:59:00Z shka: pjb: s/us/me/
2014-08-24T15:01:07Z shka: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143494#7
2014-08-24T15:01:10Z shka: here is seq
2014-08-24T15:02:05Z pjb: I get the following error: (# (("test4" 5) ("test2" 5))) has no slot named m-position.  [Condition of type simple-error]
2014-08-24T15:02:05Z pjb:  
2014-08-24T15:02:08Z chitofan: ok im so sorry
2014-08-24T15:02:12Z chitofan: but http://paste.lisp.org/display/143497
2014-08-24T15:02:36Z H4ns: chitofan: you don't get it.
2014-08-24T15:02:44Z pjb: chitofan: are you aware of the notion of "else" branch in IF forms?
2014-08-24T15:02:50Z chitofan: yeah
2014-08-24T15:02:52Z shka: pjb: ofc
2014-08-24T15:02:57Z pjb: chitofan: then use it!
2014-08-24T15:02:58Z shka: but the code has when
2014-08-24T15:03:06Z H4ns: shka: \o/
2014-08-24T15:03:24Z shka: so it will not send list to the code
2014-08-24T15:03:24Z chitofan: so you mean even if i dont put anything in else
2014-08-24T15:03:35Z shka: and yet...
2014-08-24T15:03:43Z H4ns: chitofan: you need to make sure that the second when is not evaluated when the first condition is true.
2014-08-24T15:04:01Z chitofan: i thought the function will stop looking for conditions once it has found one true case
2014-08-24T15:04:12Z H4ns: chitofan: what made you think so?
2014-08-24T15:04:19Z shka: chitofan: don't think this way
2014-08-24T15:04:31Z shka: chitofan: don't think about code as a vector
2014-08-24T15:04:42Z shka: it is a nested tree of forms
2014-08-24T15:04:46Z H4ns: chitofan: maybe you should read a book on lisp and not guess how it works, as you intuition does not seem to guide you well.
2014-08-24T15:05:06Z pjb: shka: have a look at http://paste.lisp.org/+32PY/8
2014-08-24T15:05:12Z shka: indeed, lisp is a bit different from other languages
2014-08-24T15:05:48Z shka: pjb: i know, but why and how?
2014-08-24T15:05:48Z H4ns: shka: other languages also don't tend to return from functions nilly-willy
2014-08-24T15:06:11Z pjb: shka:  see how you are calling get-object passing it a list instead of an object.  If you look at the already-setted variable, you see that you have this list instead of an object in that list.
2014-08-24T15:06:28Z shka: pjb: once again, did you actually seen the code?
2014-08-24T15:06:45Z chitofan: h4ns, was the function i was thinking of is CASE?
2014-08-24T15:06:49Z chitofan: i mean COND
2014-08-24T15:06:59Z H4ns: chitofan: both case and cond can be used in your case.
2014-08-24T15:07:04Z H4ns: chitofan: i'd tend to case.
2014-08-24T15:07:37Z chitofan: ok :)
2014-08-24T15:07:43Z pjb: shka: The bug is probably in get-object-with-name. Local functions are nice, but you should first debug them outside of flet/lables.
2014-08-24T15:07:43Z chitofan: btw the book im reading is land of lisp
2014-08-24T15:07:51Z chitofan: but i keep forgetting the stuff i read
2014-08-24T15:07:56Z shka: pjb: ok, thanks
2014-08-24T15:08:05Z shka: :)
2014-08-24T15:08:09Z pjb: shka: use v and RET on the frames in *sldb*.
2014-08-24T15:08:32Z shka: pjb: i will keep this in mind
2014-08-24T15:08:34Z H4ns: chitofan: maybe programming is not the right discipline for you?  it is really unhelpful for the activity if you keep forgetting things.
2014-08-24T15:08:53Z chitofan: well, i want to learn it so.. :D
2014-08-24T15:09:10Z chitofan: sorry if im causing you kind people grief
2014-08-24T15:09:14Z shka: H4ns: actually it is excelent training for concenctration
2014-08-24T15:09:20Z shka: ^^
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2014-08-24T15:09:42Z H4ns: it is.  but then, it is better not to use irc for continuous distraction :)
2014-08-24T15:10:46Z pjb: shka: what are you doing now?
2014-08-24T15:11:07Z shka: pjb: talking with you
2014-08-24T15:11:23Z pjb: You should be adding a print in get-object-with-name.
2014-08-24T15:11:31Z shka: pjb: i will
2014-08-24T15:11:47Z shka: but right now i will leave it and read a book
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2014-08-24T15:12:00Z shka: i will try to fix this tomorrow
2014-08-24T15:12:08Z shka: thanks for help everyone
2014-08-24T15:12:22Z pjb: shka: programming also needs some obstinacy.
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2014-08-24T15:12:59Z shka: pjb: i have loads of that :P
2014-08-24T15:13:13Z shka: i'm patient like a brick
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2014-08-24T15:19:45Z chitofan: ok, i got it guys
2014-08-24T15:19:53Z chitofan: i finally got my function to return the values i want after 2 hours
2014-08-24T15:19:54Z chitofan: lol
2014-08-24T15:20:05Z chitofan: thank you pjb and h4ns
2014-08-24T15:20:13Z pjb: chitofan: so you never programmed in any other language before lisp?
2014-08-24T15:20:35Z chitofan: uhm, matlab
2014-08-24T15:20:39Z chitofan: labview
2014-08-24T15:20:48Z chitofan: and now my job involves vb.net
2014-08-24T15:20:56Z chitofan: but i wanted to try programming in something else
2014-08-24T15:21:04Z chitofan: so, lots of people are clamouring about lisp
2014-08-24T15:21:08Z chitofan: can't hurt to try :)
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2014-08-24T15:21:33Z pjb: Indeed.  Good learning!
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2014-08-24T15:22:24Z tokenrove: chitofan: are you enjoying Land of Lisp?  it seemed like a great concept for a book to me
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2014-08-24T15:22:54Z chitofan: yea, it is, but the concepts aren't sticking with me lol
2014-08-24T15:23:17Z tokenrove: that just takes time and practice
2014-08-24T15:24:16Z pjb: chitofan: that said, progn is a bitch.  That's because it's a form used when you're doing procedural programming, where each expression is not used for its result (apart from the last one), but for the side effects it may have.
2014-08-24T15:24:16Z chitofan: sure :)
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2014-08-24T15:25:02Z pjb: chitofan: notice how an expression like: (when (member direction '(left up)) (when (numberp (car row)) 'zxc))  has 0 side effect, and therefore can just be removed by the compiler, when it's not the last one of the progn!
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2014-08-24T15:25:44Z pjb: chitofan: you may try (disassemble check-first-end) to see it removed (by most compilers, perhaps if you used (declaim (optimize (space 3))) ).
2014-08-24T15:25:48Z tokenrove: chitofan: i am helping someone learn the basics of programming right now and i had forgotten how many concepts, foreign to many people, there are to absorb.  the curse of knowledge.  it'll all seem so easy to you in a few years.
2014-08-24T15:26:16Z chitofan: oh wow, i got to try disassemble sometime lol
2014-08-24T15:26:30Z chitofan: btw, i understand what you're saying now, but i don't think i really grasp the significance of what you're saying
2014-08-24T15:26:37Z chitofan: perhaps i will understand better in the future
2014-08-24T15:26:37Z pjb:  (disassemble (quote check-first-end)) or  (disassemble (function check-first-end)) of course.
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2014-08-24T16:53:57Z kristof: Slightly dismayed that the function ED was included in the standard
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2014-08-24T16:58:00Z beach: I take it shka and chitofan resloved their problems.
2014-08-24T16:59:44Z shka: beach: actually not
2014-08-24T16:59:56Z beach: Oh dear!
2014-08-24T17:00:00Z shka: but i will try to debug later
2014-08-24T17:00:12Z beach: Yeah.  Good plan.
2014-08-24T17:00:14Z shka: beach: my problem is actually interersting :D
2014-08-24T17:00:59Z beach: So many problems are interesting.  One has to prioritize.
2014-08-24T17:02:09Z shka: beach: i will note this
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2014-08-24T17:04:25Z kristof: beach: On the subject of a manual, I realized that there's really no satisfactory, exploratory treatment in literature of some of Common Lisp's more specific features like its debugging facilities, time functions, pprinter...
2014-08-24T17:05:22Z beach: So those would have their natural place in a reference manual, you mean?
2014-08-24T17:05:28Z kristof: To learn about those things, one would have to wade through the spec and one still wouldn't see a lot of examples of its usage, tips for productive usage, etc. Is this your goal for a common lisp user manual?
2014-08-24T17:05:43Z kristof: Well, I'm asking what your intention was, actually
2014-08-24T17:05:44Z beach: Definitely, yes.
2014-08-24T17:06:07Z kristof: Ok, great.
2014-08-24T17:06:11Z beach: The reference manual would be a pedagogical and expanded version of the CLHS.
2014-08-24T17:06:32Z kristof: beach: What have you been working on lately? SICL?
2014-08-24T17:06:55Z beach: kristof: Yes, in particular my ILC papers, and the associated talk.
2014-08-24T17:07:24Z kristof: Cool :) how did the talk go?
2014-08-24T17:07:26Z beach: kristof: This morning, I redesigned the method I use for :FROM-END T in the SICL sequence functions on lists.
2014-08-24T17:07:50Z beach: kristof: tokenrove liked it he said! :)
2014-08-24T17:08:09Z beach: kristof: My wife liked it too, but she is a bit biased.
2014-08-24T17:08:17Z kristof: Yeah, I read his blog post on the conference in general
2014-08-24T17:08:27Z kristof: Oh! Actually, that was BruceM's
2014-08-24T17:08:45Z beach: Haven't seen that one yet.
2014-08-24T17:08:53Z kristof: Is your wife computer-science inclined?
2014-08-24T17:08:54Z brucem: I doubt it was me.
2014-08-24T17:09:17Z beach: kristof: Yes, she has a MS in EE/CS.
2014-08-24T17:09:28Z brucem: kristof: I didn't go to ILC ... nor do I use CL :)
2014-08-24T17:09:40Z beach: kristof: She is the translator who turned LiSP from French into English.
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2014-08-24T17:10:39Z kristof:  brucem: oh, then you just posted it to lobste.rs :P
2014-08-24T17:10:47Z kristof: beach: www.cipht.net/2014/08/19/ilc2014.html
2014-08-24T17:10:49Z brucem: kristof: ah, yes.
2014-08-24T17:11:31Z beach: kristof: That's tokenrove's.
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2014-08-24T17:11:38Z kristof: Aha!
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2014-08-24T17:11:45Z kristof: So it was him :p
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2014-08-24T17:13:58Z kristof: brucem: right, you're the residential dylanista and schemer :)
2014-08-24T17:14:31Z pjb: Who would bet swift will have the same fate as dylan?
2014-08-24T17:14:56Z brucem: seems off topic here ...
2014-08-24T17:15:52Z shka: i miss few functions in common lisp
2014-08-24T17:16:03Z beach: shka: Write them.
2014-08-24T17:16:15Z shka: beach: actually that's what i'm doing
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2014-08-24T17:16:30Z shka: but maybe someone did that earlier and better?
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2014-08-24T17:16:49Z beach: Then you wouldn't miss them.
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2014-08-24T17:17:09Z shka: beach: not if it is not in the standard
2014-08-24T17:17:15Z kristof: pjb: objective c, for all its faults, is still heavily used. I think it just proves that there are hoardes of programmers who do not care what they use as long as they have libraries ans employment opportunities.
2014-08-24T17:17:25Z beach: shka: What language do you already know?
2014-08-24T17:17:33Z shka: utilities likes reduce with brake
2014-08-24T17:17:43Z shka: beach: c++, some python, c, java
2014-08-24T17:17:53Z shka: not so proud about the last one :P
2014-08-24T17:17:53Z beach: shka: How many functions are there in the Python standard?
2014-08-24T17:18:03Z shka: beach: there is no python standard
2014-08-24T17:18:06Z shka: ^^
2014-08-24T17:18:08Z beach: shka: Exactly.
2014-08-24T17:18:51Z tokenrove: shka: what functions are you looking for?  alexandria is one of a number of popular utility libraries that cover a lot of miscellaneous functions
2014-08-24T17:18:54Z shka: beach: i just wanted to ask if there is any utility with reduce with brake, max that takes other form and others
2014-08-24T17:19:15Z shka: mostly those two comes to my mind at this point
2014-08-24T17:19:23Z tokenrove: shka: i dunno about a breakable reduce, but i really like series for that kind of operation
2014-08-24T17:19:38Z tokenrove: (the SERIES library, that is)
2014-08-24T17:19:39Z shka: tokenrove: series you say?
2014-08-24T17:19:41Z beach: shka: (block hello (reduce (lambda (x y) (when ... (return-from hello ...)) ...)))
2014-08-24T17:19:54Z shka: beach: really?
2014-08-24T17:20:09Z shka facepalms
2014-08-24T17:20:13Z beach: shka: Rather than having all possible functions, CL gives you the building blocks to create what you want.
2014-08-24T17:20:14Z kristof: shka: you can also RETURN-FROM function names
2014-08-24T17:20:38Z shka: kristof: from lambda?
2014-08-24T17:20:53Z kristof: A lambda is anonymous. :P
2014-08-24T17:21:12Z shka: yeah, so how i would paste a symbol
2014-08-24T17:21:16Z beach: shka: What was it about MAX you want?
2014-08-24T17:21:29Z pjb: (paste a-symbol)
2014-08-24T17:21:31Z shka: beach: i'm afraid to tell now ;-)
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2014-08-24T17:21:59Z shka: beach: but yolo
2014-08-24T17:22:12Z pjb: outch!
2014-08-24T17:22:45Z shka: max that takes any number returning lambda
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2014-08-24T17:23:04Z shka: so it can find maximum based on the certain criteria
2014-08-24T17:23:08Z ggole: We should totally have all possible functions, that would make programming very easy: just pick the right one.
2014-08-24T17:23:11Z shka: well, i can simply sort and car
2014-08-24T17:23:20Z shka: ggole: i noticed...
2014-08-24T17:23:36Z shka: googling about block now
2014-08-24T17:23:58Z beach: shka: MAX takes an arbitrary number of real arguments returning the largest one.  Do you want to use it in SORT?
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2014-08-24T17:24:38Z beach: shka: (sort mumble (lambda (x y) (> (date-of-birth x) (date-of-birth y))))
2014-08-24T17:24:56Z shka: beach: that's what i'm doing right now
2014-08-24T17:25:02Z shka: works find
2014-08-24T17:25:42Z kristof: You can also sort with max the list obtained by mapping "date-of-birth" over the original list.
2014-08-24T17:26:06Z beach: shka: You can't really expect ANY language to have all you want, like a function the-date-of-birth-of-the-first-argument-is-less-than-the-length-of-the-name-of-the-secont.
2014-08-24T17:26:19Z shka: beach: :D
2014-08-24T17:26:28Z shka: beach: but i don't want it
2014-08-24T17:26:30Z beach: shka: It is much better for a language to provide the building blocks so that the programmer can create such functions.
2014-08-24T17:26:45Z shka: i just want to have max that takes lambda
2014-08-24T17:26:54Z beach: What is that supposed to mean?
2014-08-24T17:26:55Z shka: it is trivial to write one
2014-08-24T17:27:03Z kristof: beach: Historically speaking, did anyone actually use the ED function? :/
2014-08-24T17:27:38Z shka: oh, it evaluates lambda with each argument, and returns argument that returned maximal value
2014-08-24T17:27:43Z shka: that's the concept
2014-08-24T17:28:04Z beach: shka: That makes no sense to me.  Can you give an example?
2014-08-24T17:28:29Z pjb: kristof: I use it all the time.
2014-08-24T17:28:41Z tokenrove: shka: oh, like a :key argument?
2014-08-24T17:28:51Z kristof: pjb: You're kidding. Did you bind it to emacs or something?
2014-08-24T17:28:56Z ggole: I think he wants maxBy or whatever other languages call it
2014-08-24T17:29:01Z pjb: clisp has hooks to call up an external editor.  ccl has hemlock on MacOSX.   etc.
2014-08-24T17:29:13Z tokenrove: i.e. (max :key (lambda (x) (/ 1 x)) 1 2 3 4)
2014-08-24T17:29:15Z shka: (max-with-lambda 'car '(1 2) '(3 4) '(9 3) '(50 2)) would return '(50 2)
2014-08-24T17:29:16Z shka: )
2014-08-24T17:29:38Z shka: tokenrove: exactly
2014-08-24T17:29:46Z tokenrove: (apply #'max (mapcar #'car arguments))
2014-08-24T17:30:06Z kristof: tokenrove: doesn't return the original argument
2014-08-24T17:30:07Z shka: tokenrove: this would return 50
2014-08-24T17:30:28Z tokenrove: of course.
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2014-08-24T17:30:55Z shka: tokenrove: more like (car (sort (lambda (a b) (> (car a) (car b))...)
2014-08-24T17:31:23Z kristof: shka: that's your answer. You want sort, because it takes a lambda.
2014-08-24T17:31:37Z shka: kristof: and that's what i'm using
2014-08-24T17:31:49Z beach: It is wasteful if you only need the largest one.
2014-08-24T17:31:58Z shka: certainly
2014-08-24T17:32:01Z beach: (reduce (lambda (x y) (> (car x) (car y))) list)
2014-08-24T17:32:05Z tokenrove: sure.  but in any case, it shouldn't be hard to implement.  a theme here is that you will probably end up developing some utilities of your own; you will probably want to investigate existing utility libraries since that is the kind of thing that happens.
2014-08-24T17:32:20Z pjb: > &rest numbers+ => generalized-boolean
2014-08-24T17:32:40Z pjb: it says generalized-boolean, not the maximum of two numbers.
2014-08-24T17:32:40Z shka: i was thinking the same
2014-08-24T17:33:01Z shka: (reduce 'max list)
2014-08-24T17:33:09Z shka: hey!
2014-08-24T17:33:17Z shka facepalms again
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2014-08-24T17:33:30Z pjb: shka: almost. It fails when list is empty.
2014-08-24T17:33:48Z shka: pjb: and it still returns only the max
2014-08-24T17:34:23Z kristof: shka: the answer is use what you're using.
2014-08-24T17:34:56Z pjb: shka: this is CL ways to tell you that you should start programming.
2014-08-24T17:35:08Z shka: pjb: ^^
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2014-08-24T17:35:49Z beach: shka: What is wrong with (reduce (lambda (x y) (if (> (car x) (car y)) x y)) '((4 5) (2 5) (3 5) (5 3)))
2014-08-24T17:36:20Z shka: beach: long and explicit (well, i know that i should simply define it)
2014-08-24T17:36:24Z pjb: the function passed to reduce should take 0 or 2 arguments.  This one has 2 mandatories, not two optionals.
2014-08-24T17:36:27Z shka: so let's just cut it
2014-08-24T17:36:34Z pjb: Or, you could give :initial-value.
2014-08-24T17:37:29Z beach: shka: If your desired function existed, it would have as many characters: returns-the-first-argument-if-the-car-of-the-first-argument-is-greater-than-that-of-the-second-otherwise-it-returns-the-second-argument.
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2014-08-24T17:37:45Z shka: beach: it should be map
2014-08-24T17:37:46Z ggole: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143499
2014-08-24T17:37:48Z shka: sorry
2014-08-24T17:37:49Z shka: not map
2014-08-24T17:37:50Z shka: max
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2014-08-24T17:37:55Z shka: with a key
2014-08-24T17:38:12Z shka: and default value of the key is >
2014-08-24T17:38:21Z shka: voila, done ^_^
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2014-08-24T17:38:50Z beach: (defun max-with-key (x y &key (key #'identity)) (if (> (funcall key x) (funcall key y)) x y))
2014-08-24T17:39:12Z kristof: With arnesi's lambda reader macro: (defun max-by-car (list) (reduce #L (if (> (car %1) (car %2)) %1 %2) list))
2014-08-24T17:39:16Z shka: beach: sure
2014-08-24T17:39:56Z redline6561: ah, tokenrove, thanks for your ILC blog post. was good reading for those of us that couldn't make it. also, welcome back! :)
2014-08-24T17:40:13Z shka: aaah
2014-08-24T17:40:21Z ggole: That applies the key function up to N times on the same element, though.
2014-08-24T17:40:26Z shka: i just realised why it is not in the standard
2014-08-24T17:40:37Z tokenrove: redline6561: thanks for reading it.  i'm glad it has been useful to people.
2014-08-24T17:40:44Z shka: it would require mixing key and rest
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2014-08-24T17:40:50Z shka: which is rather bad
2014-08-24T17:41:06Z kristof: :/
2014-08-24T17:42:14Z shka: silly me
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2014-08-24T17:44:52Z kristof: shka: No. You're overloading max to mean something that it does not. Also, the function you described is so trivially definable with the language constructs provided that beach wrote it in two lines. Furthermore, it's oddly specific. Things that belong in a standard are the most useful, general concepts.
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2014-08-24T17:46:06Z shka: kristof: it is more generic then default max
2014-08-24T17:46:12Z shka: so i don't see your point
2014-08-24T17:46:31Z beach: jasom: At some point you asked about what features of SICL are higher or lower in the hierarchy.  What did you mean by that/
2014-08-24T17:46:47Z beach: *that?
2014-08-24T17:47:14Z shka: sicl as structue and int...?
2014-08-24T17:47:22Z shka: *structure
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2014-08-24T17:47:48Z beach: minion: Please tell shka about SICL.
2014-08-24T17:47:48Z minion: shka: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2014-08-24T17:48:04Z shka: oh that is something new!
2014-08-24T17:48:09Z shka: and exciting!
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2014-08-24T18:08:10Z ejbs`: beach: Is your IRC username beach because your last name is Strandh?
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2014-08-24T18:14:28Z pjb: ejbs`: yes.
2014-08-24T18:18:07Z shka: i heared so
2014-08-24T18:18:30Z shka: btw
2014-08-24T18:18:44Z shka: what common lisps are you guys running?
2014-08-24T18:18:55Z pjb: All.
2014-08-24T18:18:56Z shka: sbcl seems to be extreamly popular nowdays?
2014-08-24T18:19:06Z pjb: Why would you reject one?
2014-08-24T18:19:35Z shka: maybe there are commonly known broken implementations?
2014-08-24T18:20:04Z Bike: gcl. don't use that one, i guess.
2014-08-24T18:20:13Z pjb: gcl is a little behind, but it seems to be currently "maintained", so who am I to say anything bad about it?
2014-08-24T18:20:17Z Bike: sbcl's good. ccl's good. you got choices.
2014-08-24T18:20:51Z shka: cool
2014-08-24T18:21:16Z shka: i heared that clozure is also very good
2014-08-24T18:21:27Z Bike: that's ccl. clozure common lisp.
2014-08-24T18:21:47Z shka: ooooh right
2014-08-24T18:21:52Z shka: let my try it
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2014-08-24T18:22:49Z shka: not in the arch repo
2014-08-24T18:22:53Z shka: :/
2014-08-24T18:23:31Z pjb: http://ccl.clozure.com/download.html
2014-08-24T18:24:42Z Bike: huh, ccl isn't in arch, that's weird. well, ecl and clisp and sbcl are.
2014-08-24T18:24:48Z oGMo: the only real downside to CCL is svn ;)
2014-08-24T18:25:01Z Bike: and ccl's in aur, of course
2014-08-24T18:25:11Z shka: pitty that not in the main
2014-08-24T18:25:13Z oGMo: (yes there is a git mirror .. without tag translation ;P)
2014-08-24T18:25:14Z pjb: ccl can only be compiled by ccl, therefore you cannot make a pure source distribution of it.
2014-08-24T18:25:35Z Bike: arch isn't pure source, but yeah the aur package is "ccl-bin" even
2014-08-24T18:25:36Z pjb: clisp and ecl need a C compiler.  sbcl needs a CL interpreter.
2014-08-24T18:25:41Z bhyde: shka - browse a bit here: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-test-grid/library/
2014-08-24T18:26:31Z Bike: sbcl is listed as depending on itself for make. neato
2014-08-24T18:27:16Z pjb: you can use clisp or ccl to compile sbcl.
2014-08-24T18:27:34Z Bike: yeah. distros are weird sometimes.
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2014-08-24T18:28:55Z bhyde: anybody using cl-launch on the mac?
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2014-08-24T18:56:36Z nectar: greetings, folks
2014-08-24T18:56:59Z nectar: i wonder if we have some clsql gurus online
2014-08-24T18:57:15Z nectar: banging my head on generating a sql query using “AS”
2014-08-24T18:57:50Z nectar: e.g. i want "select a, count(b) as n from t group by a;"
2014-08-24T18:58:36Z nectar: but  cannot figure how to fit that into  [select [a] [count [b]] :from [t] :group-by [a]]
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2014-08-24T19:24:01Z kristof: Bike: binary isn't distributed?
2014-08-24T19:24:11Z Bike: What?
2014-08-24T19:24:28Z kristof: For sbcl
2014-08-24T19:24:42Z Bike: it is.
2014-08-24T19:25:03Z kristof: What distro were you talking about for the self-dependency then?
2014-08-24T19:25:11Z Bike: arch.
2014-08-24T19:25:17Z Bike: for when you want to make it, rather than just get it.
2014-08-24T19:25:17Z kristof: ._.
2014-08-24T19:25:23Z kristof: Gotcha
2014-08-24T19:25:24Z Bike: two different kinds of dependency.
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2014-08-24T19:26:35Z kristof: Bike: is that a problem, anyway? You can just download the bin to compile it with
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2014-08-24T19:28:08Z Bike: no.
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2014-08-24T19:39:23Z H4ns: pwd
2014-08-24T19:39:24Z H4ns: ls
2014-08-24T19:39:27Z H4ns: sorry
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2014-08-24T19:43:24Z francogrex: I tried to play around with linj (one src here: https://github.com/xach/linj), but aside from a few simple examples (like those in the tutorial) it doesn't do anything impressive at all.
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2014-08-24T19:51:41Z Xach: You are entitled to a full refund
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2014-08-24T19:52:57Z akkad: :D
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2014-08-24T20:04:42Z shka: oooh god
2014-08-24T20:04:54Z shka: i finally found the reason behind the problem
2014-08-24T20:05:00Z shka: i feel so stupid
2014-08-24T20:11:16Z AeroNotix: Xach: wow, do you get that often?
2014-08-24T20:11:39Z AeroNotix: that's probably the rudest thing I've ever heard in the context of some free code someone did
2014-08-24T20:12:05Z francogrex: AeroNotix: wake up! Xach has not written that project at all
2014-08-24T20:12:25Z shka: H4ns: it could be worse
2014-08-24T20:12:34Z AeroNotix: francogrex: as a quick glance, it looked like it was
2014-08-24T20:12:41Z AeroNotix: francogrex: still, the point remains
2014-08-24T20:12:42Z H4ns: francogrex: why do you think that we're interested in how impressed you are?
2014-08-24T20:12:44Z francogrex: glance better
2014-08-24T20:12:50Z AeroNotix: francogrex: learn2polite
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2014-08-24T20:13:23Z francogrex: H4ns: you're not others may be
2014-08-24T20:13:28Z H4ns: anyone?
2014-08-24T20:13:36Z francogrex: yes a show of hand
2014-08-24T20:13:38Z AeroNotix: I'm not
2014-08-24T20:13:57Z francogrex: AeroNotix: you're an imbecile
2014-08-24T20:14:05Z AeroNotix: francogrex: noted
2014-08-24T20:14:59Z shka: francogrex: why are you so rude :(
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2014-08-24T20:15:28Z shka: people here are very friendly, dedicated and passionate
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2014-08-24T20:15:49Z shka: i would not call them "imbecile"
2014-08-24T20:16:32Z francogrex: i am not calling anyone who is friendly dedicated and passionate an imbecile
2014-08-24T20:16:41Z shka: even pjb is a nice guy
2014-08-24T20:16:51Z shka: he just likes "!" a bit to much
2014-08-24T20:17:03Z francogrex: pjb is the best
2014-08-24T20:17:18Z shka: heh
2014-08-24T20:17:38Z shka: good night all, and behave yourselfs
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2014-08-24T20:30:12Z Ven: so, what's the "prefered" common lisp to js these days, if there's one so?
2014-08-24T20:32:03Z AeroNotix: Ven: I hear ParenScript talked about a lot
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2014-08-24T20:49:48Z beach: ejbs`: As pjb said, yes.
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2014-08-24T20:54:50Z beach: ejbs`: Sometimes I use the nick spiaggia as well.
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2014-08-24T21:02:29Z ejbs`: beach: Hah, cool :)
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2014-08-24T21:06:05Z beach: Quadrescence: I'll answer your mail once I am back home.  Unless you are in a rush of course.
2014-08-24T21:06:17Z Quadrescence: No rush.
2014-08-24T21:06:20Z Ven: can I use defmacro from a `loop`? Do I need to wrap this loop inside of another defmacro ?
2014-08-24T21:06:33Z Quadrescence: (I was actually wondering if my email was broken or something because a few people haven't responded to various emails.)
2014-08-24T21:06:50Z beach: I definitely got yours. :)
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2014-08-24T21:07:31Z Quadrescence: Ven, You can cons up DEFMACRO forms inside of a loop. But it doesn't make sense to do do something like (loop for i below 10 do (defmacro ...))
2014-08-24T21:07:37Z Quadrescence: -do
2014-08-24T21:07:55Z Ven: Quadrescence: why not?
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2014-08-24T21:09:12Z beach: Ven: If you want a macro local to the forms of the DO in the LOOP, use MACROLET.
2014-08-24T21:09:15Z beach: clhs macrolet
2014-08-24T21:09:15Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm
2014-08-24T21:09:24Z Ven: beach: ah, no, not local.
2014-08-24T21:09:30Z Ven: Just wanted to generate macros.
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2014-08-24T21:09:43Z Quadresce: Sigh, my IRC keeps dropping out for whatever reason.
2014-08-24T21:09:53Z Quadresce: [17:08.29]  DEFMACRO is a toplevel form
2014-08-24T21:09:55Z Quadresce: [17:09.14]  (It can be defined in lexical environments but I don't think that's what you're looking to do, especially since DEFMACRO binds globally.)
2014-08-24T21:10:52Z Ven: I want to generate global macros that have compound names (the first one being iterated off a list)
2014-08-24T21:11:00Z Ven: (the first part of the name, that is)
2014-08-24T21:11:04Z beach: Ven: Then do (progn (loop ... collect `(defmacro ...)))
2014-08-24T21:11:19Z Ven: beach: yeah, alright, just wanted to know if it worked :-). ty
2014-08-24T21:12:04Z beach: Er, some backquotes are missing, but you get the picture.
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2014-08-24T21:31:17Z pjb: Ven: it doesn't make sense, because defmacro is a macro.
2014-08-24T21:31:25Z Ven: pjb: uh?
2014-08-24T21:31:28Z pjb: You need to call a function in the loop.
2014-08-24T21:31:41Z Ven: again, uh?
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2014-08-24T21:31:55Z pjb: Just try to write it.
2014-08-24T21:32:05Z Ven: that's why I asked here.
2014-08-24T21:32:36Z pjb: Well, the answer to your question is: yes.
2014-08-24T21:32:44Z pjb: You can call defmacro in a loop.
2014-08-24T21:32:49Z pjb: That won't do what you want.
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2014-08-24T21:34:15Z pjb: Ven: so, what loop did you try to write?
2014-08-24T21:34:29Z Ven: pjb: try looping in an array to define each own as a macro
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2014-08-24T21:35:15Z pjb: (loop for x across #(a b c) do (defmacro m (z) 'hi)) --> nil; works perfectly. You CAN do that!
2014-08-24T21:35:59Z pjb: Now, what would you want to do?
2014-08-24T21:36:10Z pjb: What kind of macro do you want to write?
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2014-08-24T21:36:56Z pjb: (defmacro what? (what?) what?)
2014-08-24T21:37:14Z pjb: Should be a simple question to answer, since you asked first…
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2014-08-24T21:40:44Z pjb: It's funny how asking seemingly the simpliest questions can lead to such long answer deals, or no answer at all…
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2014-08-24T21:41:48Z Ven: pjb: that's mostly a theoritical question, that's why I'm not focused on answering, sorry
2014-08-24T21:42:11Z pjb: There's something to learn here, so your call…
2014-08-24T21:42:14Z Ven: pjb: I'd like for the name of the macro to be comprised of the loop element x
2014-08-24T21:42:23Z pjb: So what would you write?
2014-08-24T21:42:27Z Ven: sure, my call, just give me 10s to write my reply
2014-08-24T21:43:06Z Ven: (loop for x across #(a b c) do `(defmacro ,x (z) 'hi)) <- I guess something along those lines
2014-08-24T21:43:21Z Ven: well, I guess I need it inside another defmacro and explicitly call the outer one ;)
2014-08-24T21:43:33Z pjb: Ok, so here you are building a list whose first element is defmacro.  No side effect, the loop can be dead-coded.
2014-08-24T21:44:08Z Ven: pjb: s/do/collect
2014-08-24T21:44:08Z pjb: Yes, collecting those defmacro forms in that loop, prepending a progn and returning that from a macro would be useful.
2014-08-24T21:44:43Z Ven: why yes
2014-08-24T21:44:53Z Ven: and that's been told to me around 30min ago :)
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2014-08-24T21:45:09Z pjb: Since defmacro is a macro that doesn't evaluate its first argument, you cannot write do (defmacro x (z) 'hi).  You could use eval:   do (eval `(defmacro ,x (z) 'hi)  or put everything in a macro that you would call to get the expansion.
2014-08-24T21:45:26Z Ven: the latter being what I said
2014-08-24T21:45:42Z pjb: Well, since you answered uh to my saying "it doesn't make sense, because defmacro is a macro.", it looks like you didn't get it entirely.
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2014-08-24T21:46:36Z Ven: pjb: I was wondering what you wanted to add
2014-08-24T21:47:21Z Ven: but what you just said were just reformulations of what had been told earlier
2014-08-24T21:47:25Z pjb: Onomatopeas don't seem to carry much sense.
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2014-08-24T21:48:14Z Ven: pjb: repeating what has just been said doesn't either, fwiw
2014-08-24T21:50:42Z pjb: Notice that `(…) is ultimately a function call.
2014-08-24T21:51:50Z pjb: What you might still miss is that it's not specific to defmacro, it's true of any macro, or even special operator, when the argument is not evaluated at run-time.  Hence the concise explanation: defmacro is a macro.
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2014-08-24T22:16:47Z Xach: AeroNotix: get what often?
2014-08-24T22:17:06Z Ven: pjb: yes, I know that
2014-08-24T22:17:31Z Ven: I mean, I got it after the first explanation :). You chiming in just created confusion (for me) because I thought there was something more to it
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2014-08-24T22:24:18Z Quadresce: sorry for my join/part noise. I don't know what the deal is w/my connection to IRC.
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2014-08-24T23:10:09Z rpg: Does anyone know where named-readtables lives these days? The cl.net page still points at (yuck) darcs.
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2014-08-24T23:12:25Z bhyde: rpg: see https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/blob/50cb92cb9f3ec29a3438d1745fbf016cfee307a4/named-readtables/source.txt
2014-08-24T23:12:54Z rpg: bhyde
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2014-08-24T23:12:56Z rpg: thanks!
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2014-08-24T23:13:27Z bhyde: of course that doesn't necessary mean it lives there, only that gl get's it there
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2014-08-24T23:16:50Z rpg: bhyde: That's good enough for me. named-readtables is a mess because it was originally darcs-maintained by tcr, and when he dropped out, I lacked the skill to do the complex darcs-wrangling required.
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2014-08-24T23:29:29Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: what darcs-wrangling do you need ?
2014-08-24T23:30:08Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: I *think* someone else has taken over named-readtables, but I don't know who, and cl.net doesn't reflect this take-over.
2014-08-24T23:30:39Z rpg: I could probably help udate cl.net; I may still have write privs to that directory.
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2014-08-24T23:32:42Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: https://github.com/kmizumar/named-readtables
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2014-08-24T23:34:44Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: Hm. Only says "my copy of editor-hints.named-readtables".... Has he(?) committed to taking this thing over?
2014-08-24T23:40:14Z fe[nl]ix: he committed one patch
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2014-08-24T23:47:32Z rpg: OK. I'd better check in with him before going all heavy and pointing the cl.net project directory at him!
2014-08-24T23:48:46Z rpg: Thanks!
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2014-08-25T03:29:40Z kristof: What other languages have the ability to restart computation without unwinding a stack on exception?
2014-08-25T03:31:15Z Bike: i remember hearing rust had CL-ish conditions
2014-08-25T03:32:09Z kristof: That is untrue.
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2014-08-25T03:33:45Z Bike: https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-dev/2012-March/001455.html guess so
2014-08-25T03:33:54Z brucem: kristof: Primarily, CL and Dylan (since it is a CL derivative) ... there was an Objective C derivative that was someone's research project called TOM that did CL-style conditions. I've seen people sort of get something similar in Haskell / Scala via what I view as contortions.
2014-08-25T03:35:49Z kristof: Bike: They *do* adopt a policy of not unwinding the stack if an exception is handled, but there are no separated restarts. :'(
2014-08-25T03:37:03Z kristof: brucem: I don't know about Scala, but exceptions munge up callsites in Haskell in precisely the way exception mechanisms are not supposed to do. Slightly frustrating.
2014-08-25T03:37:53Z brucem: kristof: when I've seen it in Scala, exceptions weren't actually involved. It was highly contorted FP/scalaz style stuff.
2014-08-25T03:38:08Z brucem: (the type of thing that made me dislike using Scala and abandoning ship)
2014-08-25T03:38:16Z kristof: brucem: I feel the same thing about reader monads. "You don't need dynamically scoped variables, just use a reader monad!" But now you're passing values explicitly between call-sites again, which defeates the ******* purpose.
2014-08-25T03:39:04Z kristof: Sometimes I think FPers forget that their tools are supposed to be used by programmers, who are automating computers.
2014-08-25T03:39:42Z brucem: kristof: a common thing I've heard in relation to that is from the people who work on thigns like Haskell's Machines, Scala's scalaz-stream, etc ... that the edges are what matter, not the nodes. And you'll see a lot of state hidden away in edges ... but I agree that the results aren't all that friendly to us poor programmers.
2014-08-25T03:40:32Z kristof: brucem: What do you mean by edges?
2014-08-25T03:41:32Z brucem: kristof: In that case, it was the functions that get built to represent the push and pull of data through a stream ...
2014-08-25T03:41:54Z brucem: kristof: I was going to write a description of how those stream libraries work and how one might look / work in a more Lisp-y world ... but I haven't had time yet.
2014-08-25T03:42:43Z kristof: brucem: Gotcha. I'm vaguely familiar with the Pipes library in Haskell, but that's about it as far as streams go.
2014-08-25T03:43:46Z brucem: kristof: ask me about it in a week and we'll see ... it is an interesting topic.
2014-08-25T03:43:49Z kristof: brucem: You know, I wouldn't mind these fancy shmancy statically typed languages if they gave me things like named/keyword arguments, optional arguments, multiple value returns, a proper condition system, subtyping (yeah, I know what it does to inference)...
2014-08-25T03:44:18Z brucem: kristof: well, you left out one of my big objections.
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2014-08-25T03:44:25Z kristof: "An unboxed vector IS a multiple value return!" No it isn't, because it messes with your callsites.
2014-08-25T03:44:33Z kristof: brucem: Yeah?
2014-08-25T03:44:36Z brucem: kristof: Haskell people often make smug lisp weenies look friendly and charming.
2014-08-25T03:44:48Z kristof: brucem: Hahahah that's only sometimes true. :)
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2014-08-25T03:53:09Z onesky: Hi
2014-08-25T03:53:17Z Bike: yo yo yo.
2014-08-25T03:53:52Z loke: I have a problem. HALP!
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2014-08-25T03:54:43Z Kuran: wat problem
2014-08-25T03:55:18Z loke: I need to detect when a stream is closed while at the same time waiting on a condition variable.
2014-08-25T03:56:22Z Kuran: sounds like a cocurrency problem
2014-08-25T03:56:31Z pillton: You can do it with another stream if you use a non-blocking IO library.
2014-08-25T03:57:47Z loke: pillton: Right. I can see some big working mounting then... The stream is a result stream from Hunchentoot
2014-08-25T03:58:04Z loke: Meaning I will have to implement a new Hunchentoot acceptor, I guess?
2014-08-25T03:58:44Z pillton: Yeah. Unfortunately.
2014-08-25T03:58:53Z loke: I figured as muhc
2014-08-25T03:58:54Z pillton: I have the same problem with my IRC bot.
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2014-08-25T03:59:10Z loke: Has anymore created a multiplexing Hunchentoot acceptor already? I can't be the first person who needs it?
2014-08-25T03:59:48Z pillton: If Hunchentoot uses gray streams then it shouldn't be too hard to write a gray stream wrapper for BASIC-BINARY-IPC.
2014-08-25T04:01:18Z pillton: Or maybe someone has written one for IOLIB.
2014-08-25T04:01:22Z loke: pillton: I suppose ou rpoblems are remarkably similar. In my case, this is the server-end of a notification system using Javascript EventSource on the browser-side. When a client disconnects it takes a long time (= the time between "pings") until the server detects it, leaving a lot of danging handler threads. Once I increase the load I quickly get far too many threads to be manageable.
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2014-08-25T04:02:39Z loke: I'm actually OK with a thread per connection, but I need to quickly drop the thread once a client disconnects, which is why I need to be able to wait on the condvar and check for disconnections at the same time.
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2014-08-25T04:03:24Z fortitude: loke: you might have a look at wookie, which is more or less hunchentoot built on cl-async
2014-08-25T04:03:46Z loke: Oh
2014-08-25T04:03:59Z loke: is it compatible?
2014-08-25T04:04:10Z loke: I've built a lot of infrastructure on hunchentoot
2014-08-25T04:04:20Z fortitude: not sure, it started as a port and may have diverged some since then
2014-08-25T04:05:07Z pillton: loke: Can't you just have a watchdog thread? No ping, you close the socket. The thread monitoring the socket gets woken up.
2014-08-25T04:06:12Z loke: pillton: I was thinking of that, but that'd double the total number of threads, yes?
2014-08-25T04:06:35Z pillton: No. Just N + 1 where N is the number of clients.
2014-08-25T04:09:08Z loke: How do you track potentially thousands of connection disconnects from a single thread?
2014-08-25T04:11:34Z Zhivago: Use an i/o scheduler operation like poll, etc?
2014-08-25T04:12:10Z loke: Can I do that with hunchentoot streams? (they are grey streams)
2014-08-25T04:12:34Z pillton: loke: You said each client pings. When you receive a ping you record the time it was received. Sort the sockets based on their ping time and then close the ones that are dead.
2014-08-25T04:12:54Z loke: pillton: Actually, the server does the pinging
2014-08-25T04:13:11Z loke: I only know the connection is dead once the FLUSH-OUTPUT throws an exception
2014-08-25T04:13:13Z pillton: loke: s/ping/pong/ then.
2014-08-25T04:13:43Z Zhivago: Doesn't a dead connection close the input direction in the socket?
2014-08-25T04:13:48Z pillton: Oh. I think that is the write buffer getting full then.
2014-08-25T04:14:07Z loke: Right, but I want to get informed as soon as the connection is closed. Using standard POSIX calls I'd be able to do this using poll() and checking for poll/exceptions
2014-08-25T04:14:21Z pillton: BASIC-BINARY-IPC does that for you.
2014-08-25T04:14:26Z loke: Zhivago: It does, and will poll() I can check for that
2014-08-25T04:14:32Z loke: I just don't know how to do it from CL
2014-08-25T04:14:40Z Zhivago: So, when your input hits EOF, you should be able to immediately flush, right, in which case you'd get the exception immegiately.
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2014-08-25T04:15:02Z Zhivago: You can't do it directly from CL -- but implementations expose posix to various degrees.
2014-08-25T04:15:35Z pillton: loke: https://github.com/markcox80/basic-binary-ipc
2014-08-25T04:15:44Z loke: Yeah, IOLIB seems to have something like it, but that requires you to use IOLIB for all I/O, yes?
2014-08-25T04:16:28Z pillton: IOLIB imposes an event loop on you, BASIC-BINARY-IPC doesn't.
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2014-08-25T04:25:47Z loke: Hmm
2014-08-25T04:26:16Z loke: I'm not sure how basic-binary=ipc will help me here
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2014-08-25T04:41:44Z fe[nl]ix: pillton: iolib does not impose an event loop
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2014-08-25T04:43:29Z pillton: Is the main mechanism of being notified of events still a callback?
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2014-08-25T04:45:09Z fe[nl]ix: you can use an event loop or you can poll sockets individually
2014-08-25T04:46:12Z pillton: Oh ok. My mistake then. Sorry for the misinformation.
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2014-08-25T05:06:01Z jasom: loke: iolib is *nix only, b-b-i works on windows; iolib requires an external dll, b-b-i doesn't; iolib has more than just networking, b-b-i is just networking.  Aside from that, the interface is a bit different.  I've used both and they both seem fairly good.  b-b-i has better non-docstring documentation too IIRC.
2014-08-25T05:06:27Z loke: What about performance?
2014-08-25T05:06:47Z loke: I don't care about windows support
2014-08-25T05:07:41Z pillton: IOLIB will be better in terms of performance.
2014-08-25T05:08:08Z jasom: loke: I haven't taken either one up to 11 yet; they are both fairly simple layers over the underlying poll/epoll/kqueue.  It should be simple enough to compare
2014-08-25T05:08:26Z pillton: I need to fix some things in the interface to improve performance.
2014-08-25T05:10:06Z jasom: pillton: extra copies?
2014-08-25T05:11:09Z jasom: oh, and they both seem to signal a condition on EAGAIN, which annoyed me.  I suppose Worse is still Better.
2014-08-25T05:11:36Z jasom: er EINTR not EAGAIN
2014-08-25T05:11:44Z jasom: signaling a condition on EAGIN is totally the right thing to do
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2014-08-25T05:13:43Z pillton: jasom: The polling operations return a list containing the events. Assembling the list conses.
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2014-08-25T05:16:53Z jasom: pillton: oh.
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2014-08-25T05:20:07Z pillton notes that he won't be fixing it anytime soon.
2014-08-25T05:20:43Z jasom: pillton: that's not *terrible* though; at least it's O(N) overhead when you have N things to do anyway
2014-08-25T05:21:11Z jasom: depending on the vagaries of the GC it could be negligable or significant
2014-08-25T05:21:41Z jasom: The alternative I suppose would be to pass a function to call on each event?
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2014-08-25T05:22:05Z jasom: which would also have overhead, but might avoid consing
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2014-08-25T05:22:36Z jasom: Or you could return the foreign data directly and have accessors for waking it
2014-08-25T05:23:01Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: iolib never lets you see an EINTR
2014-08-25T05:24:34Z pillton: jasom: Yeah. I was thinking a macro DO-EVENTS in conjunction with something that looks like a bitmask.
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2014-08-25T05:40:08Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: if it comes up again, I'll file a bug then; it happened to me about 6 months ago
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2014-08-25T09:45:14Z dim: [shameless self-advertising] added some screenshots of my new CL project, pgcharts, at https://github.com/dimitri/pgcharts ;-)
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2014-08-25T09:45:53Z |3b|: dim: s/visaul/visual/
2014-08-25T09:45:59Z dim: ahah, yeah...
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2014-08-25T09:47:45Z |3b|: also, requiring passwords on command line is a bit annoying, since those get saved in shell history
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2014-08-25T09:48:39Z |3b|: aside from that looks interesting
2014-08-25T09:48:54Z |3b| doesn't have any data to graph though :p
2014-08-25T09:49:31Z dim: fixed, more shots added
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2014-08-25T09:52:29Z dim: not only do you need data to graph, but also to have them in a PostgreSQL instance... but when you do, train the marketing people at SQL and let them mash the data themselves anyway they want to
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2014-08-25T09:53:57Z dim: |3b|: for password, you can already export the PGPASSWORD env var
2014-08-25T09:54:11Z dim: mmm except that I didn't add the facility back in pgcharts
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2014-08-25T09:55:36Z dim: there, added
2014-08-25T09:56:00Z |3b|: dim: cool
2014-08-25T09:56:51Z dim: now, how to have that environment variable properly set without the setting appearing anywhere, I don't know, I'm not good at security
2014-08-25T09:56:58Z |3b|: heh
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2014-08-25T10:34:11Z loke: Hardcoded passwords for postgres?
2014-08-25T10:34:14Z loke: Ugh
2014-08-25T10:34:23Z loke: I use Kerberos for all such authentication
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2014-08-25T10:37:45Z dim: that's a good way to do it yeah
2014-08-25T10:37:56Z dim: do you know if the Postmodern pg driver supports it?
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2014-08-25T10:43:27Z Shinmera: And I finally ported my chatlog to postgres and reworked the frontend. http://log.irc.tymoon.eu/freenode/lisp?types=m
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2014-08-25T10:57:34Z loke: dim: Yes, it does
2014-08-25T10:57:44Z loke: I know that, because I was the one implementing Kerberos support for postmodern
2014-08-25T10:57:50Z dim: perfect then, I guess pgcharts just supports it out of the box then
2014-08-25T10:58:08Z loke: If you use Postmodern, yes. It'll work out of the box
2014-08-25T10:58:15Z dim: well if it does not, neither does pgloader, and I would fix that readily (given some details about how)
2014-08-25T10:58:22Z loke: All you do is to leave the password and username fields blank
2014-08-25T10:58:55Z dim: blank as in nil I would guess
2014-08-25T10:59:44Z dim: the user name is currently automatically taken from PGUSER then USER env. variables, and it's unusual for USER not to be defined
2014-08-25T10:59:57Z dim: but well unset USER; pgcharts register pgsql:///dbname should do
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2014-08-25T11:22:45Z otwieracz: Hi.
2014-08-25T11:22:52Z otwieracz: Anyone is using ecl with slime?
2014-08-25T11:25:06Z phadthai: I do, but I can't say I've updated either in a while
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2014-08-25T11:27:38Z phadthai: ecl is slightly post-13.5.1 from git, and slime is a cvs update from about december 2013
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2014-08-25T11:28:29Z jackdaniel: phadthai: ecl is using git now
2014-08-25T11:28:40Z phadthai: yes, the update was from git
2014-08-25T11:28:43Z otwieracz: Yeah, but i am facing other problem.
2014-08-25T11:29:23Z otwieracz: every error causes: Lisp connection closed unexpectedly: connection broken by remote peer
2014-08-25T11:30:09Z phadthai: hmm that seems like a slime bug, or perhaps a character encoding issue/mismatch, but it's only a guess
2014-08-25T11:30:33Z jackdaniel: otwieracz: do you have brand new slime?
2014-08-25T11:30:50Z phadthai: hmm I have:
2014-08-25T11:30:57Z phadthai: (in .emacs): (set-language-environment "UTF-8")
2014-08-25T11:30:57Z phadthai: (setq slime-net-coding-system 'utf-8-unix)
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2014-08-25T11:32:22Z |3b|: might check *inferior-lisp* and see if it gives any indication what is wrong
2014-08-25T11:33:04Z otwieracz: Hmm.
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2014-08-25T11:44:25Z otwieracz: OK, quicklisp-slime-helper was absent in my ECL :)
2014-08-25T11:44:47Z jackdaniel: hmm, is inferior-shell  broken on sbcl or am i missing something? (asdf does not match version 3.0.3 -> http://ix.io/e17 )
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2014-08-25T11:45:46Z |3b|: jackdaniel: what does (asdf:asdf-version) say?
2014-08-25T11:46:09Z jackdaniel: 3.0.2
2014-08-25T11:46:36Z |3b|: presumably working correctly then, need to either upgrade asdf, or wait for next sbcl versoin which will have newer asdf
2014-08-25T11:47:15Z |3b| assumes it requires some feature or bugfix in 3.0.3, so refusing to run on 3.0.2 is reasonable
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2014-08-25T11:59:00Z jackdaniel: (asdf:upgrade-asdf) does seem to mark me, returning T and keeping 3.0.2 :(
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2014-08-25T12:41:19Z Xach: jackdaniel: you have to install a newer version yourself and arrange to load it early.
2014-08-25T12:41:33Z Xach: or you can wait a few days for sbcl 1.2.3, which includes asdf 3.1.x
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2014-08-25T12:42:59Z dim: 3.1? fast pace as ever
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2014-08-25T12:46:44Z dim: ok I'm entirely lost here. (if *serve-from-cache* (handle-loaded-file ...) (hunchentoot:handle-static-file ...)), *serve-from-cache* is T, and the hunchentoot backtrace shows (HUNCHENTOOT:HANDLE-STATIC-FILE #P"/Users/dim/dev/pgcharts/web/highcharts/js/highcharts.js" NIL)
2014-08-25T12:47:32Z dim: I've been restarting the image, loading my code with the value defaulting to T in the defparameter form, and only then starting the hunchentoot server, so that the dynamic binding valued didn't change once the threads are created
2014-08-25T12:47:54Z dim: any tip or track I would need to follow to understand the situation? any debug tip I might follow?
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2014-08-25T12:49:30Z dim: *catch-error-p to the rescue
2014-08-25T12:50:40Z Xach: the suspense is killing me!
2014-08-25T12:52:23Z dim: well using simple-routes::compile-routes which is a macro
2014-08-25T12:53:15Z dim: it might be that somehow there's smart code inlining/compiling that happens at macroexpansion time and/or compilation time wherein the if expression is simplified depending on the value of *serve-from-cache* at this time
2014-08-25T12:53:23Z dim: but I can't be more hand-wavvy than that
2014-08-25T12:54:43Z dim: the backtrace, tho, goes directly from acceptor-dispatch-request to handle-static-file, bypassing both the #'serve-pgcharts-js-file function that's set in the routing setup and the serve-static-file function call that's to be found in the source of serve-pgcharts-js-file
2014-08-25T12:57:14Z dim: (declaim (notinline serve-static-file)) ; didn't change the backtrace, still dispatch directly to handle static file
2014-08-25T12:57:24Z dim: feels like I'm missing something "obvious'
2014-08-25T12:57:45Z dim: (yes I did remove the fasl cache files for that declaim test)
2014-08-25T12:58:31Z AeroNotix: With lisp-kit, the idea was to be able to include it into other projects whole. The problem with this is that projects installed with quicklisp inadvertantly end up putting it on your system. The versions which projects bundle often aren't at the same version as the one that's in quicklisp.
2014-08-25T12:58:38Z AeroNotix: lisp-unit***
2014-08-25T12:58:49Z AeroNotix: I am talking about the unit testing framework
2014-08-25T12:59:03Z Xach: AeroNotix: interesting.
2014-08-25T12:59:11Z Xach: I hadn't heard about that.
2014-08-25T12:59:11Z AeroNotix: Xach: cl-cffi-gtk bundles it
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2014-08-25T12:59:36Z Xach: I wonder if that's a pre-quicklisp user-helping effort
2014-08-25T12:59:52Z AeroNotix: Xach: I think the author of lisp-unit recommends it
2014-08-25T12:59:59Z AeroNotix: (bundling, that is)
2014-08-25T13:00:08Z Xach: My wonder stands.
2014-08-25T13:00:09Z AeroNotix: but yeah, that logic might be coming from pre-QL days
2014-08-25T13:00:11Z AeroNotix: yeah^
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2014-08-25T13:00:44Z AeroNotix: Xach: https://github.com/OdonataResearchLLC/lisp-unit/issues/21
2014-08-25T13:01:56Z Xach: that is ThomasH here on #lisp. I don't think I've seen him in a while. That link has some good info.
2014-08-25T13:02:17Z AeroNotix: Xach: just created https://github.com/crategus/cl-cffi-gtk/issues/26
2014-08-25T13:02:56Z Xach: AeroNotix: cl-gtk-cffi is now fully included in the quicklisp dist update, which i released late last night.
2014-08-25T13:03:07Z AeroNotix: Xach: ok
2014-08-25T13:03:07Z Xach: there will be an announcement soon.
2014-08-25T13:03:25Z Xach: At least, I think it's fully included. It has many many more systems present than the July release.
2014-08-25T13:03:33Z AeroNotix: awesome
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2014-08-25T13:18:27Z AeroNotix: Why did older lisps differentiate between scoping rules for interpreted code and compiled code?
2014-08-25T13:19:18Z dlowe: ease of implementation, I imagine
2014-08-25T13:20:02Z dlowe: dynamic scope is really easy in an interpreter
2014-08-25T13:20:17Z AeroNotix: Sure, I was hoping there was more of a reason than that, but ok :)
2014-08-25T13:20:19Z AeroNotix: thanks!
2014-08-25T13:20:24Z dlowe: when compiling, lexical scope is easier
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2014-08-25T13:23:44Z Xach: it took time to discover that
2014-08-25T13:24:41Z Xach: and accept it
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2014-08-25T13:31:35Z Xach: arrrrgh
2014-08-25T13:31:50Z Xach: 50 dist updates and i still manage to screw it up sometimes.
2014-08-25T13:31:58Z Xach chants MORE AUTOMATION
2014-08-25T13:32:29Z dlowe: there was a neat paper that led the reader through making a simple lisp compiler to assembly, and it covered the mechanism for lexical closures. It's surprisingly simple and satisfyingly clever.
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2014-08-25T13:33:46Z Guthur: I see some old posts about ABCL running on Mono, is that still possible?
2014-08-25T13:37:04Z tokenrove: there was a port called uabcl; i don't know if it's still being developed
2014-08-25T13:37:31Z Guthur: tokenrove: yeah it seems rather dead
2014-08-25T13:38:14Z Cymew: dlowe: If you have a link and it's freely available, I'd love to take a peek at that.
2014-08-25T13:38:27Z dlowe: I'll see if I can dig it up. It's been a while.
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2014-08-25T13:40:54Z dim: http://cliki.net/Common%20Lisp%20implementation still mentions is
2014-08-25T13:41:02Z dim: https://code.google.com/p/uabcl/
2014-08-25T13:41:18Z AeroNotix: Xach: does that mean we shouldn't update-all-dists just yet?
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2014-08-25T13:41:44Z AeroNotix: https://gist.github.com/AeroNotix/23ff8a17ddf8d20b8d82
2014-08-25T13:41:47Z AeroNotix: just got this^
2014-08-25T13:42:05Z AeroNotix: delete-and-retry worked
2014-08-25T13:42:23Z tokenrove: Guthur: there were some other options (if RDNZL isn't adequate).  if you investigate them, could you let me know what the current state of CL on the CLR is?
2014-08-25T13:44:01Z Xach: AeroNotix: you can, but you will likely get a (continuable) error about cl-ppcre.
2014-08-25T13:44:14Z AeroNotix: Xach: yeah that's what I got
2014-08-25T13:44:29Z Xach: if you choose the delete-and-retry restart, everything is fine.
2014-08-25T13:44:46Z AeroNotix: Xach: that's what I did :) thanks!
2014-08-25T13:45:09Z Guthur: tokenrove: I'm not sure on the limitations of RDNZL, I'll have a look
2014-08-25T13:45:49Z dlowe: Cymew: 74652023
2014-08-25T13:45:51Z dlowe: oops
2014-08-25T13:45:55Z dlowe: Cymew: http://scheme2006.cs.uchicago.edu/11-ghuloum.pdf
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2014-08-25T13:46:03Z dlowe: pay no attention to that number.
2014-08-25T13:46:11Z Cymew: Thanks!
2014-08-25T13:46:11Z tokenrove: oh yeah, that's a great paper
2014-08-25T13:46:31Z dlowe: I actually implemented the system in CL and found a couple of bugs in the paper :D
2014-08-25T13:46:36Z tokenrove: the code for his scheme implementation, ikarus, is worth a look, too
2014-08-25T13:46:55Z dlowe: huh, hadn't heard of that.
2014-08-25T13:47:32Z Xach: ha. i went to add it to pinboard. "previously saved february 2008". i guess i should read it.
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2014-08-25T13:47:58Z tokenrove: there are some more resources related to the course he was giving with that paper, should be easy to track down.  i was working on something related, because i think it's a great pedagogical approach to compilers, but it's on the backburner.
2014-08-25T13:48:41Z dlowe: Here's what I sent him: there's a typo in section 3.3 Unary Primitives.  In your example output, line 5 should read:5.    orl   $31, %eax to match the boolean tag specification in 3.2 of 0011111b.
2014-08-25T13:48:52Z tokenrove: also iirc he wrote some great papers with kent dybvig including a really interesting one on BIBOP which is much more feasible now that 64-bit is ubiquitous
2014-08-25T13:49:26Z dlowe: or maybe it was an intentional trap to foil the reckless dabbler.
2014-08-25T13:51:21Z Cymew: Could be ;)
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2014-08-25T14:26:21Z chitofan: is (if (numberp (car row)) t nil) redundant?
2014-08-25T14:26:56Z Xach: yes.
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2014-08-25T14:27:59Z chitofan: but if i want to return the opposite result
2014-08-25T14:28:08Z chitofan: so (if (numberp (car row)) nil t)
2014-08-25T14:28:09Z Xach: (not (numberp (car row))
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2014-08-25T14:28:12Z chitofan: will (not (numberp
2014-08-25T14:28:14Z Xach: )))
2014-08-25T14:28:15Z chitofan: ok :)
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2014-08-25T14:34:48Z pjb: chitofan: (if (numberp (car row)) t nil) is not redundant. It is not the same as (numberp (car row)).
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2014-08-25T14:35:09Z pjb: The type of (if (numberp (car row)) t nil) is boolean = (or t nil).  The type of (numberp (car row)) is t.
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2014-08-25T14:35:37Z pjb: Now it's up to you to know what type you want.  Notice that IF takes a type T as condition.
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2014-08-25T14:36:21Z pjb: We call the T a generalized boolean when we consider only nil and non-nil.
2014-08-25T14:36:27Z pjb: s/the/the type/
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2014-08-25T14:37:06Z chitofan: if i want to output that as a value
2014-08-25T14:37:09Z pjb: And notice that null and not will always return a boolean, since they're specified to return T when given NIL, and NIL when given something else.
2014-08-25T14:37:16Z chitofan: is boolean or t better?
2014-08-25T14:37:21Z pjb: Depends.
2014-08-25T14:37:39Z pjb: Some functions use the flexibility given by generalized boolean to give more information.
2014-08-25T14:37:45Z pjb: cf. digit-char-p
2014-08-25T14:37:48Z pjb: or member
2014-08-25T14:37:54Z chitofan: clhs
2014-08-25T14:37:55Z chitofan: clfs
2014-08-25T14:38:06Z chitofan: clhf
2014-08-25T14:38:19Z pjb: For user consumption, you may want to use a format: (format t "~:[False~;True ~]~%" (zerop (random 2)))
2014-08-25T14:38:22Z chitofan: how do you guys call the common lisp helper function
2014-08-25T14:38:25Z pjb: clhs digit-char-p
2014-08-25T14:38:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_digi_1.htm
2014-08-25T14:39:04Z pjb: or: /msg specbot clhs digit-char-p    to ask privately.
2014-08-25T14:40:56Z chitofan: sorry
2014-08-25T14:41:04Z chitofan: but i don't really know what type i want
2014-08-25T14:41:21Z chitofan: so far, i understand that there's type t and type boolean
2014-08-25T14:41:26Z chitofan: but i don't really understand the difference
2014-08-25T14:41:44Z dlowe: type T is anything at all
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2014-08-25T14:44:05Z chitofan: i don't think i;m using the right keywords to search on this topic
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2014-08-25T14:55:45Z alexey1:  /msg specbot clhs plusp
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2014-08-25T14:57:16Z chitofan: is eq for symbols and equal for everything else a good guide?
2014-08-25T14:57:37Z chitofan: what if i want to evaluate something that may be a symbol or a number?
2014-08-25T14:57:40Z chitofan: what do i use then?
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2014-08-25T14:59:37Z |3b|: use eql unless you have a reason not to
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2014-08-25T15:00:02Z |3b|: reasons include knowing types of both arguments (in which case = or char= or string= etc might be better)
2014-08-25T15:00:17Z |3b|: or wanting different sorts of comparison, like equal, equalp, string-equal
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2014-08-25T15:02:22Z |3b|: eq works on most of the things eql works on, and means the same thing when it does
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2014-08-25T15:02:38Z |3b|: (specifically, EQ doesn't work on numbers and characters)
2014-08-25T15:03:15Z |3b|: EQ/EQL test a different kind of equality from EQUAL
2014-08-25T15:04:38Z |3b|: short version is that EQ/EQL check for things being the same object, while EQUAL checks for objects with same contents
2014-08-25T15:04:41Z |3b|: clhs equal
2014-08-25T15:04:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_equal.htm
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2014-08-25T15:04:53Z |3b|: ^ see the spec for the exact details of what they compare
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2014-08-25T15:10:57Z chitofan: ok :)
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2014-08-25T15:21:40Z chitofan: is it good form to end a function's name with p
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2014-08-25T15:21:47Z chitofan: if you want it to return either true or nil?
2014-08-25T15:21:51Z AeroNotix: chitofan: if it's a predicate function  - yeah
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2014-08-25T15:22:58Z Xach: chitofan: Yes. The logic for using "p" vs "-p" is pretty simple and explained in cltl2. I think I pasted the logic into cliki at one point, let me find the link...
2014-08-25T15:23:22Z Xach: yes, in http://www.cliki.net/Naming+conventions under "CLTL2 explains"
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2014-08-25T15:24:28Z dlowe: I'm not a fan of predicate notations, but it's a lot better to follow convention than to ignore it.
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2014-08-25T15:29:11Z AeroNotix: dlowe: any reasoning behind your dislike?
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2014-08-25T15:30:57Z dlowe: Seems odd to have a special notation for "function that returns a boolean"
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2014-08-25T15:31:54Z dlowe: In languages without a convention, I use an "is-" or "has-" prefix, which reads better.
2014-08-25T15:32:07Z AeroNotix: dlowe: in clojure they use ?
2014-08-25T15:32:09Z AeroNotix: number?
2014-08-25T15:32:12Z AeroNotix: string?
2014-08-25T15:32:14Z dlowe: Yeah, in Scheme too
2014-08-25T15:32:17Z AeroNotix: I quite like that
2014-08-25T15:32:35Z dlowe: Then it's annoying to actually say out loud
2014-08-25T15:32:50Z dlowe: So... tradeoffs. :)
2014-08-25T15:32:53Z AeroNotix: dlowe: I still pronounce it 'is string'
2014-08-25T15:33:17Z ejbs: dlowe: Yeah, reminds me of the inflection of a teenage girl
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2014-08-25T15:34:06Z Xach: Reminds me more of a canadian.
2014-08-25T15:34:17Z dlowe: digit-char-eh?
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2014-08-25T15:34:52Z |3b|: confusing when written in prose too
2014-08-25T15:35:26Z ejbs: |3b|: Well, not if you SCREAM the name
2014-08-25T15:35:33Z Xach: heh
2014-08-25T15:35:40Z |3b|: hard to uppercase the ?
2014-08-25T15:36:05Z mood: Or, if possible in the environment, use a monospace font
2014-08-25T15:36:06Z AeroNotix: I also like ! suffixes for stateful functions
2014-08-25T15:36:18Z AeroNotix: (update-all-accounts!)
2014-08-25T15:36:28Z AeroNotix: (start-thinking-life-has-meaning!)
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2014-08-25T15:39:11Z dlowe: AeroNotix: you might like snarc, then. http://dlowe.net/tmp/snarc.lisp
2014-08-25T15:39:54Z AeroNotix: dlowe: I think it's fine in new code, but legacy/standard library functions are well-known enough to deal with it
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2014-08-25T15:40:38Z dlowe: I'd rather be consistent rather than have to read both.
2014-08-25T15:40:48Z AeroNotix: This is a good point, too
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2014-08-25T15:44:27Z chitofan: i tried to write a recursive function, but i'm afraid i don't understand it very well
2014-08-25T15:44:28Z chitofan: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143506
2014-08-25T15:44:28Z dlowe: snarc is less successful in its aims than you'd think, though, because as soon as you load in a library with the CL conventions, you end up still having to read both
2014-08-25T15:44:41Z dlowe: chitofan: do you understand recursion well?
2014-08-25T15:44:42Z chitofan: it's suppose to return a T value when i pass it '(2 2 empty empty)
2014-08-25T15:45:39Z chitofan: no.. not really
2014-08-25T15:45:42Z chitofan: but i want to try it
2014-08-25T15:45:46Z pjb: |3b|: uppercase ? = ?  or perhaps: ⁇ :-)
2014-08-25T15:46:14Z |3b|: pjb: which breaks when someone tries to copy it into a repl
2014-08-25T15:46:27Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2014-08-25T15:46:28Z pjb: which was just a joke.
2014-08-25T15:46:33Z |3b|: :)
2014-08-25T15:48:22Z dlowe: chitofan: you might want to look at the first few chapters of Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, then
2014-08-25T15:48:33Z pjb: chitofan: http://paste.lisp.org/+32QA/1
2014-08-25T15:48:42Z pjb: row is not a boolean therefore DO NOT USE NOT!
2014-08-25T15:48:47Z dlowe: or, you know, do what pjb said
2014-08-25T15:49:00Z pjb: row is is a list, therefore use first, second, … rest instead of car/caddr.
2014-08-25T15:49:26Z dlowe: pjb: you're "supposed" to use ENDP on lists
2014-08-25T15:49:30Z pjb: Since it returns a boolean, you can use AND and OR to express it, instead of IF.  Notice that AND and OR are short-cutting.
2014-08-25T15:49:52Z pjb: dlowe: indeed.
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2014-08-25T15:51:32Z sm0ke: which lisp should i pick for working with C/C++ libs?
2014-08-25T15:51:58Z pjb: sm0ke: any Common Lisp that is supported by cffi.
2014-08-25T15:52:03Z sm0ke: is there something for C/C++ like clojure is for java?
2014-08-25T15:52:11Z pjb: ABCL
2014-08-25T15:52:15Z sm0ke: even java has ffi
2014-08-25T15:52:23Z sm0ke: i am asking for something which is practical
2014-08-25T15:52:25Z pjb: Isn't it a FFI to java?
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2014-08-25T15:52:41Z pjb: minion: tell sm0ke about PCL
2014-08-25T15:52:41Z minion: sm0ke: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2014-08-25T15:52:53Z |3b|: sm0ke: note that C and C++ differ quite a bit in ability to call with FFI in most CL implementations :(
2014-08-25T15:53:03Z oGMo: sm0ke: the ABI is the ABI, use sbcl or ccl
2014-08-25T15:53:21Z pjb: or clisp or ecl.
2014-08-25T15:53:26Z sm0ke: hurm
2014-08-25T15:53:47Z oGMo: i would not recommend clisp or ecl myself, but they would probably work
2014-08-25T15:53:54Z sm0ke: very different opinions
2014-08-25T15:54:06Z tokenrove: each implementation has different tradeoffs
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2014-08-25T15:54:14Z oGMo: ecl "compiles to C" so that's sortof like clojure, but it's really irrelevant
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2014-08-25T15:54:28Z sm0ke: I heard chicken scheme is most easy to work with native libs? any true?
2014-08-25T15:54:29Z tokenrove: also, drmeister is planning on releasing an implementation which is supposed to have very good C++ interoperation, if i understand correctly
2014-08-25T15:54:37Z Kruppe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2014-08-25T15:54:43Z oGMo: unless you want to be able to plop a block of literal C in your lisp, which ECL may support (i don't know)
2014-08-25T15:55:02Z oGMo: sm0ke: we don't really deal with scheme here
2014-08-25T15:55:03Z tokenrove: yeah, istr you can embed literal C in ECL
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2014-08-25T15:55:40Z tokenrove: sm0ke: #scheme will probably have better help for the scheme implementations.  i know several of them have good FFIs.
2014-08-25T15:56:41Z oGMo: but, i do lots of calling to C libraries, from sbcl and ccl, and it's fine
2014-08-25T15:56:45Z tokenrove: people seem to have put a lot of work into application delivery with Gambit Scheme.  it would be nice to see something similar happen in the CL world (to be fair, such things already exist commercially).
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2014-08-25T15:59:13Z chitofan: can i just put (row) as a condition?
2014-08-25T15:59:31Z chitofan: or do i have to do something like (not (eql row '()))
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2014-08-25T15:59:58Z pjb: chitofan: Where is the function row defined?
2014-08-25T16:00:08Z chitofan: no, it's just a list
2014-08-25T16:00:14Z chitofan: just wanna check if it's empty or not
2014-08-25T16:00:27Z pjb: Why do you call it then?  (row) is a form  that calls a function named row!
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2014-08-25T16:00:55Z chitofan: i'm just confused how to set a check for an empty list
2014-08-25T16:01:17Z chitofan: as short as possible
2014-08-25T16:01:25Z pjb: (if row 'not-empty 'empty) (if (null row) 'not-'empty empty)  but it would be better to use endp for lists:  (if (endp row) 'empty 'not-empty)
2014-08-25T16:01:36Z chitofan: clhs endp
2014-08-25T16:01:36Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_endp.htm
2014-08-25T16:02:31Z chitofan: but (endp row) is the same as (null row) right?
2014-08-25T16:02:39Z pjb: No.
2014-08-25T16:02:54Z pjb: when row is a non-null atom, endp signal an error, while null returns nil.
2014-08-25T16:03:29Z chitofan: hmm..
2014-08-25T16:03:32Z chitofan: i don't understand that
2014-08-25T16:03:38Z chitofan: i'll write that down for another day in my notebook
2014-08-25T16:03:41Z chitofan: thanks!
2014-08-25T16:03:57Z chitofan: but if i wanted to do the opposite of (endp row) or (null row)
2014-08-25T16:03:57Z loke_: chitofan: Try these:
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2014-08-25T16:04:05Z pjb: Try: (loop with row = '(a b c . d) until (null row) do (print (first row)))
2014-08-25T16:04:13Z pjb: vs.: (loop with row = '(a b c . d) until (endp row) do (print (first row)))
2014-08-25T16:04:44Z pjb: chitofan: just swap the then and else branches, or use unless instead of when.
2014-08-25T16:04:56Z loke_: chitofan: (endp (cdr '(1 . 2))) vs. (null (cdr '(1 . 2)))
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2014-08-25T16:05:48Z chitofan: but i have a reason for not wanting to swap the then and else branches
2014-08-25T16:05:57Z chitofan: im using a cond
2014-08-25T16:05:58Z loke_: (not (endp XX))
2014-08-25T16:06:09Z chitofan: thats the only workaround?
2014-08-25T16:06:15Z pjb: Yes.
2014-08-25T16:06:20Z loke_: It's one of million ways of doing it
2014-08-25T16:06:43Z user2046 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2014-08-25T16:06:52Z loke_: But the only one that's clear
2014-08-25T16:07:03Z chitofan: ok :)
2014-08-25T16:07:04Z pjb: You can write (cond ((null x) 'empty) ((atom x) (error "dotted list")) (t (process (car x) (cdr x))))
2014-08-25T16:07:13Z chitofan: clhs process
2014-08-25T16:07:13Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for process.
2014-08-25T16:07:28Z loke_: pjb: I was about to write something with ETYPECASE. :-)
2014-08-25T16:09:33Z chitofan: clhs rest
2014-08-25T16:09:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rest.htm
2014-08-25T16:09:42Z chitofan: it's 12 am in singapore
2014-08-25T16:09:48Z chitofan: where and what are you guys doing :)
2014-08-25T16:10:10Z pjb: I'm here, and I'm answering to your questions.
2014-08-25T16:12:29Z Aranshada|W: *rimshot*
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2014-08-25T16:13:00Z shka: guys, i have any idea
2014-08-25T16:13:08Z shka: and i wonder what do you think
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2014-08-25T16:13:44Z chitofan: if the list eater function i create checks the first and second value of the list
2014-08-25T16:13:48Z shka: basicly: create any vc especially for lisp
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2014-08-25T16:13:53Z chitofan: what happens when there's only one value in the list left
2014-08-25T16:13:56Z shka: since lisp code is a tree
2014-08-25T16:13:57Z chitofan: will it return an error or nil?
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2014-08-25T16:14:08Z shka: we can convert it into xml easily
2014-08-25T16:14:30Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2014-08-25T16:14:33Z shka: and once we have uniform xml, we can operate not on the text, but on the trees
2014-08-25T16:15:06Z tokenrove: shka: i implemented an xml-based structural version control system in CL about ten years ago; did tree-based diffs.  if you want to implement something similar, it's actually quite easy.  check out zhang-shasha or similar; there might be much better algorithms now.
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2014-08-25T16:15:14Z pjb: chitofan: (cdr nil) = nil therefore there is always second, third, fourth, etc values: beyond the list they're nil.  Unless it's a dotted list in which case cdr will signal an error.
2014-08-25T16:15:26Z shka: tokenrove: yes it is the same idea
2014-08-25T16:15:35Z shka: tokenrove: how functional it was?
2014-08-25T16:15:54Z pjb: shka: sexp are already a tree.  Why do you want to convert it to xml text to convert it back to a tree?  That sounds very dumb.
2014-08-25T16:16:10Z tokenrove: shka: it was used in a commercial situation.  for other reasons i left before it was widely deployed.
2014-08-25T16:16:31Z shka: pjb: because this way i can finally have something that i always wanted
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2014-08-25T16:16:38Z pjb: go ahead then.
2014-08-25T16:16:38Z AeroNotix: shka: which is
2014-08-25T16:16:49Z shka: export to xml, import with any formatting settings
2014-08-25T16:16:59Z pjb: I'm on the genie side.
2014-08-25T16:17:08Z chitofan: wow, why am i the only one asking such basic questions
2014-08-25T16:17:09Z chitofan: lol
2014-08-25T16:17:25Z tokenrove: a few years later i considered creating a version control system for lisp using the same approach, but a) i didn't want to infringe on work i had done for another company; and more importantly, b) i decided it wasn't that useful.
2014-08-25T16:17:34Z shka: chitofan: what basic question?
2014-08-25T16:17:45Z shka: sorry i was just thinking about that awesome idea
2014-08-25T16:17:46Z pjb: chitofan: because you've not read enough?
2014-08-25T16:17:59Z oGMo: tokenrove: unfortunately in CL it's easier to operate on pre-read text, too
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2014-08-25T16:18:30Z shka: well, this approach can allow us some awesome features
2014-08-25T16:18:41Z shka: like automatic symbol name update
2014-08-25T16:18:44Z oGMo: eh
2014-08-25T16:18:45Z tokenrove: yeah, there's a lot of little gotchas, and what do you gain?  if you and someone else are having conflicts at the line level, you need human intervention anyway.
2014-08-25T16:18:50Z oGMo: any use of xml is probably suspect
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2014-08-25T16:19:02Z shka: oGMo: :D
2014-08-25T16:19:07Z shka: i will note that
2014-08-25T16:19:12Z oGMo: why convert it to some textual bs when you can just operate on the actual list?
2014-08-25T16:19:48Z shka: well ok
2014-08-25T16:19:48Z oGMo: notably, overcomplicated ugly format you will just re-parse to do anything with anyway, and at the end of the day you only care about the sexp
2014-08-25T16:20:15Z shka: oGMo: but this way you can get rid of the formatting
2014-08-25T16:20:25Z oGMo: shka: what formatting?
2014-08-25T16:20:32Z shka: text formatting
2014-08-25T16:20:43Z oGMo: what text formatting?
2014-08-25T16:21:28Z shka: (cons 'source (cons 'code (list 'text 'formatting)))
2014-08-25T16:21:34Z shka: ^^
2014-08-25T16:21:35Z oGMo: is your original source sexp or xml? because if you're starting with xml and converting to lisp data to work with, that seems reasonable
2014-08-25T16:21:46Z oGMo: shka: which doesn't exist after you read it
2014-08-25T16:22:01Z shka: oGMo: yes, but how would you create a patch?
2014-08-25T16:22:10Z tokenrove: there's all kinds of edge cases with read syntax and so on, too.  but tree differencing in general is fun.
2014-08-25T16:22:53Z shka: tokenrove: ok, so somebody implemented this already
2014-08-25T16:22:58Z shka: and it worked
2014-08-25T16:23:02Z shka: and it was fun
2014-08-25T16:23:09Z oGMo: shka: if you pre-read everythig, tree diffs, but .. what are you trying to accomplish?
2014-08-25T16:23:30Z shka: oGMo: vc for lisp!
2014-08-25T16:23:37Z shka: no diffs on plain text
2014-08-25T16:23:41Z oGMo: CL uses a lot of reader macro stuff that again makes working with read source rather painful
2014-08-25T16:23:42Z shka: diffs on trees
2014-08-25T16:23:47Z chitofan: is a 1 condition COND a good idea if i want my function to terminate once it finds that condition to be true?
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2014-08-25T16:23:50Z chitofan: or is the a better way?
2014-08-25T16:23:53Z chitofan: there*
2014-08-25T16:23:57Z oGMo: shka: and what _problem_ are you trying to solve?
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2014-08-25T16:24:09Z tokenrove: shka: it worked in the context of xml documents that had a lot of concurrent changes that needed to be automatically merged.  i tried doing it for CL but things like comments, reader macros, etc, made it infeasible (or unfun).  but tree diff itself is a lot of fun to implement and play with, especially in CL.
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2014-08-25T16:24:47Z shka: tokenrove: ok, that's true that reader macros are problematic
2014-08-25T16:25:17Z shka: but somehow, we can detect that form is reader macro related?
2014-08-25T16:25:28Z oGMo: it would be nice if source were considered in some form other than textual input, but too much would need changed in CL to really make it practical afaict
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2014-08-25T16:26:06Z pjb: oGMo: true, but you can reduce the use of reader macros in your sources.
2014-08-25T16:26:28Z tokenrove: you'd have to do it at the reader level, otherwise forms like #+sbcl t #-sbcl nil would get eaten the first time you committed them.
2014-08-25T16:26:41Z shka: tokenrove: yes, but that's possible
2014-08-25T16:26:56Z shka: since that software would be written in the lisp to begin with
2014-08-25T16:27:09Z tokenrove: you could use it for a lisp DSL though; i can imagine perhaps a lisp-driven MOO or programmable MMO that could take advantage of such an approach
2014-08-25T16:27:24Z shka: hmmm
2014-08-25T16:27:41Z oGMo: pjb: not really the only issue.. you can always format given things as reader macros (though harder with backquoted stuff) .. but you want to save comments in the source, and that's actually painful
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2014-08-25T16:28:10Z oGMo: you could have a modified set of reader macros for things like backquote, which don't actually expand anything
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2014-08-25T16:28:49Z oGMo: bu
2014-08-25T16:29:19Z shka: i still feel that this should be possible - somehow
2014-08-25T16:29:20Z oGMo: ...t it's a lot of work that leads to a whole lot more work (for actually editing such) with possibly minimal gains
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2014-08-25T16:30:05Z shka: oGMo: you are killing my dreams ;(
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2014-08-25T16:31:44Z oGMo: shka: your reasons for doing such seem nebulous and you probably should understand the amount of work involved. it could be interesting though, if you leave out the xml bits and just deal with editing ast
2014-08-25T16:31:45Z tokenrove: shka: well, don't let us tell you what to do.  if you really want to do it, go ahead, and have fun.  i can even give you references for some papers on the subject if you need 'em.
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2014-08-25T16:32:23Z shka: oGMo: i'm just doing researsh at this point
2014-08-25T16:32:30Z shka: *research
2014-08-25T16:32:49Z tokenrove: heck, build a whole smalltalk-style image-based development environment with syntax-aware editing
2014-08-25T16:32:57Z shka: i think i know how to deal with comments
2014-08-25T16:33:11Z shka: but macros are problematic
2014-08-25T16:33:30Z shka: tokenrove: sadly, i don't quite know what you are talking about
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2014-08-25T16:34:17Z oGMo: tokenrove: yeah that would be pretty neat .. just a lot of work
2014-08-25T16:34:25Z shka: oGMo: for the lisp!
2014-08-25T16:34:38Z tokenrove: shka: are you interested in finding out more?  or should i stop making suggestions?
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2014-08-25T16:35:10Z shka: tokenrove: yes, i am very interested
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2014-08-25T16:37:58Z tokenrove: shka: look up "structure editor", "tree edit distance", and "smalltalk image"
2014-08-25T16:38:16Z tokenrove: i can provide more links or details if you so desire
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2014-08-25T16:40:28Z shka: tokenrove: maybe some kind of book?
2014-08-25T16:40:31Z shka: i like books
2014-08-25T16:40:57Z tokenrove: shka: maybe gusfield.  i don't know if i found a book on the topic at the time.
2014-08-25T16:41:04Z shka: ok
2014-08-25T16:41:16Z shka: tokenrove: thanks, i will check out this topic
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2014-08-25T16:41:43Z shka: but now i will rather move other thing a bit
2014-08-25T16:42:14Z shka: btw, is it just me or we hav inferior tools when compared to 80s?
2014-08-25T16:45:38Z Xach: Just you.
2014-08-25T16:46:06Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2014-08-25T16:46:11Z otwieracz: Jak się zachowa balon meteorologiczny na sznułku?
2014-08-25T16:46:23Z Xach: For me, personally, I think the hardware gains are so fantastic that I'm willing to be not so sad about the slow software progress.
2014-08-25T16:46:39Z shka: Xach: ok, that's good since i started to think that something went wrong along the way
2014-08-25T16:47:03Z shka: otwieracz: w00t?
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2014-08-25T16:50:39Z Xach: shka: Did you see the Energize video?
2014-08-25T16:50:59Z otwieracz: ooops.
2014-08-25T16:51:01Z otwieracz: No there.
2014-08-25T16:51:07Z otwieracz: Sorry. :)
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2014-08-25T16:52:41Z shka: Xach: not quite
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2014-08-25T16:53:40Z Xach: Me neither. But what I saw looked pretty cool.
2014-08-25T16:53:46Z slyrus got excited when gusfield's name showed up and I thought we were going to start talking about biologically-relevant strings like DNA and protein sequences :(
2014-08-25T16:54:00Z Xach: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQQTScuApWk is it
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2014-08-25T16:56:08Z shka: slyrus: nope, we are different kind of nerds :P
2014-08-25T16:56:38Z shka: very cool keyboard so far :D
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2014-08-25T17:23:11Z pjb: Can we substitute "ae" for "ä" in Swedish like in German?
2014-08-25T17:23:42Z wasamasa: you can't just do that in german
2014-08-25T17:24:21Z wasamasa: since there might be a syllable boundary between the a and e
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2014-08-25T17:26:40Z ejbs: pjb: You can't do that but if you did people would still understand
2014-08-25T17:27:20Z pjb: good enough.
2014-08-25T17:27:34Z pjb: It's for file names, since I still stick to ASCII for them…
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2014-08-25T17:33:59Z ejbs: pjb: Why do you need to write filenames in Swedish :)?
2014-08-25T17:34:25Z pjb: I write the original title of movies in file names.
2014-08-25T17:35:23Z pjb: Usually, they're English titles, but I've got a few Swedish, Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Spanish or French titles too.
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2014-08-25T17:39:17Z ejbs: Ah, alright, so not Lisp-related?
2014-08-25T17:43:31Z pnpuff: everything is Lisp-related! :-)
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2014-08-25T17:52:09Z jasom: pjb: you could punycode the filenames
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2014-08-25T17:52:21Z spockokt: lisp's energy surrounds us and binds us
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2014-08-25T17:53:10Z pjb: jasom: they should stay human readable :-)
2014-08-25T17:53:26Z jasom: pjb: are you going to romanize the cjk names then?
2014-08-25T17:53:44Z pjb: ejbs: it's slightly lisp related, since that makes my file names more easily processable with logical pathnames and physical pathnames.
2014-08-25T17:53:48Z pjb: jasom: yes.
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2014-08-25T18:13:54Z shka: god wrote world in lisp so yes
2014-08-25T18:14:05Z shka: everything is lisp related to a degree
2014-08-25T18:14:41Z Ven: shka: he did mix it with lisp,apparently
2014-08-25T18:14:50Z Ven: err, perl.
2014-08-25T18:15:15Z shka: Ven: only after exodus
2014-08-25T18:15:21Z Ven: makes sense :p.
2014-08-25T18:16:03Z shka: and satan made java
2014-08-25T18:17:57Z oleo: don't you load lucifer for your own sins!
2014-08-25T18:17:59Z oleo: lol
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2014-08-25T18:25:26Z Aranshada|W: I believe this is the related reference. http://xkcd.com/224/
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2014-08-25T18:59:06Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
2014-08-25T19:02:00Z shka: beach: hello
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2014-08-25T19:03:39Z jasom: beach: I want to say you asked me a question this weekend, but I'm too lazy to grep my logs.
2014-08-25T19:04:17Z jasom: 10:44 < beach> jasom: At some point you asked about what features of SICL are higher or lower in the hierarchy.  What did you mean by that/
2014-08-25T19:04:25Z beach: Right.
2014-08-25T19:04:28Z jasom: there it is.  I lied about being to lazy.
2014-08-25T19:04:32Z beach: heh
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2014-08-25T19:05:02Z jasom: Well my understanding of SICL is that it's lisp-in lisp, with the intent of being modular, and having some parts of it depend on other parts in a tree relationship, is that right?
2014-08-25T19:05:11Z beach: jasom: It is hard to talk about levels when it comes to CL.
2014-08-25T19:06:59Z shka: good night all
2014-08-25T19:07:36Z jasom: Ah, here it is from the project page " In order to avoid circular dependencies, we implicitly define a hierarchy of modules where higher-level modules only use the functionality of lower-level modules."
2014-08-25T19:07:55Z beach: Not quite.
2014-08-25T19:07:55Z beach: For example, LOOP could be considered high-level, but then it is expanded by the host when things are bootstrapped.
2014-08-25T19:07:55Z beach: So in SICL, LOOP is considered always available.
2014-08-25T19:07:55Z beach: It all depends on how you intend to use it.
2014-08-25T19:07:56Z beach: g'night shka.
2014-08-25T19:08:04Z beach: Yeah, but it's a bit complicated.
2014-08-25T19:08:29Z beach: I try the best I can to make things easy for someone who wants to use a single module.
2014-08-25T19:08:39Z jasom: beach: I'm implementing a lisp, and was wondering which things in SICL are considered core vs not core, so that I can pick which to implement first and having my lisp compliant sooner
2014-08-25T19:08:41Z beach: But there are different use cases, so it is not obvious.
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2014-08-25T19:09:43Z beach: jasom: OK, then I suggest you use the CONS module.  It only requires LOOP and car/cdr rplaca/rplacd as I recall.
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2014-08-25T19:10:16Z beach: jasom: It basically implements the entire CONS dictionary of the CLHS.
2014-08-25T19:10:22Z jasom: nice
2014-08-25T19:10:27Z jasom: does it define the setf expanders too?
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2014-08-25T19:10:59Z jasom: and I just bumped LOOP to the top of my implementation priority list
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2014-08-25T19:11:12Z beach: jasom: I believe it does, but you had better check.  My memory is not great, and I am on a  dinky laptop at the airport in Montreal, so I am not going to check for you.
2014-08-25T19:11:20Z jasom: okay, thanks!
2014-08-25T19:11:43Z beach: jasom: SICL LOOP is not quite finished, but not far away either.  If you want to contribute, we can discuss it.
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2014-08-25T19:14:41Z beach: The parser is pretty much complete as I recall.  Basically the semantic verification and the code generation is left.
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2014-08-25T19:15:54Z jasom: are you going to implement it in terms of block/tagbody?
2014-08-25T19:16:14Z beach: Yes.
2014-08-25T19:16:41Z beach: I don't think there are many alternatives.
2014-08-25T19:17:08Z jasom: there are very few structures that can do an infinite loop in the standard
2014-08-25T19:17:24Z beach: Yep.
2014-08-25T19:18:44Z beach: The parser is a combinatorial (?) parser, so it lends itself to user extensions.
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2014-08-25T19:22:55Z jasom: Are two symbols ever eql but not eq?
2014-08-25T19:23:39Z Bicyclidine: nope
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2014-08-25T19:24:01Z Bicyclidine: eql is only more true for characters and numbers
2014-08-25T19:24:34Z jasom: so the fact that catch/trow uses eq instead of eql only matters if you use non-symbols for the catch tag
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2014-08-25T19:25:10Z Bicyclidine: think so, yeah
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2014-08-25T19:25:37Z jasom forgot you could use non-symbols for catch/throw
2014-08-25T19:26:10Z jasom: I suppose if you try to throw 27 and fail to catch it, you have nobody to blame but yourself and your own attempt at being clever
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2014-08-25T19:35:28Z phserr: Can I safely 'let' a dynamic variable in multiple threads simultaneosly? Assuming that I'm setting them to different objects
2014-08-25T19:36:24Z ejbs: phserr: Check your implementation's manual is my advice (or specify impl.)
2014-08-25T19:37:09Z phserr: ejbs: I'm on SBCL
2014-08-25T19:37:45Z ejbs: phserr: My guess is yes, but I don't know
2014-08-25T19:39:01Z phserr: ejbs: will try searching in the docs, but I guess I shouldn't expect it to be completely portable even I can
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2014-08-25T19:41:01Z phserr: ejbs: It behaves as expected in SBCL. Thanks for helping.
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2014-08-25T19:44:08Z ejbs: phserr: "
2014-08-25T19:44:08Z ejbs:  
2014-08-25T19:44:08Z ejbs:     global special values are visible across all threads;
2014-08-25T19:44:08Z ejbs:     bindings (e.g. using LET) are local to the thread;
2014-08-25T19:44:11Z ejbs:     threads do not inherit dynamic bindings from the parent thread " from the manual
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2014-08-25T19:48:56Z phserr: ejbs: yes - thank you very much.
2014-08-25T19:50:01Z ejbs: Oops, sorry, I missed your previous message
2014-08-25T19:50:48Z phserr: ejbs: No problem. Thanks for being so helpful.
2014-08-25T19:52:14Z tokenrove: phserr: fwiw, i think ccl also has thread-local special variables.  i would assume most implementations are guided by the bordeaux-threads proposal.
2014-08-25T19:54:38Z phserr: tokenrove: That's nice to know. Threading in lisp is uncharted territory for me. Thank you
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2014-08-25T19:55:56Z rme: Having thread-local bindings is really the only sane thing, IMO.
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2014-08-25T19:58:54Z rpg: ehu: therep?
2014-08-25T19:59:19Z ehu: rpg: yup. I'm here.
2014-08-25T19:59:23Z ehu: what's up?
2014-08-25T19:59:45Z rpg: ehu: I was just using ABCL, and found that when I call JFIELD to get a static field, I get two values: NIL and the field's value.
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2014-08-25T20:03:04Z rpg: Seemed eye-opening enough to me that I wanted to check...
2014-08-25T20:03:44Z rpg: Oh, very odd! It's a JSS issue.
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2014-08-25T20:05:16Z rpg: And I'm wrong -- it's returning the right values, but *RUNNING-IN-OSGI* is not as expected. I'll dig further.
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2014-08-25T20:08:15Z rpg: ehu: sorry. Looks like it's an oddity with JSS, which I'm not fully understanding. I will read more source.
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2014-08-25T20:15:02Z ehu: np. let me know when you need help. However, Mark may be a better source, because he uses JSS quite intensively, if I'm not mistaken.
2014-08-25T20:17:51Z rpg: ehu: Thanks, will do. BTW, my last patch to JSS got garbled, and the svn copy of invoke.lisp is not correct....
2014-08-25T20:18:15Z rpg: ehu:  I'm not sure what went wrong, but the patch seems not to have applied cleanly.
2014-08-25T20:18:44Z ehu: rpg: ok. which part is wrong?
2014-08-25T20:18:52Z ehu searches the right file/checkout
2014-08-25T20:19:12Z rpg: A call to error appears in the REPORT function of the new condition, instead of a call to FORMAT.
2014-08-25T20:19:33Z rpg: It actually raises a warning when compiling....
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2014-08-25T20:20:48Z rpg: lines 326-327
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2014-08-25T20:21:48Z rpg: I'm looking at the patch, and it looks right.
2014-08-25T20:23:14Z ehu: ok. searching for the patch. hold on. (have invoke open now)
2014-08-25T20:23:47Z rpg: argh. I tried to attach my copy of invoke.lisp and got a trac post error :-/
2014-08-25T20:23:57Z ehu: too big?
2014-08-25T20:25:04Z rpg: I don't think so: it just crashed and said I should file a ticket against trac!
2014-08-25T20:25:12Z rpg: I emailed you my invoke.lisp.
2014-08-25T20:25:41Z rpg: I'm afraid I must dash now -- need to go to school meeting. I'll be back later, but I hope that when you see the diff, it will be obvious what's wrong.
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2014-08-25T20:26:31Z ehu: ok. thanks. I'll have a look.
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2014-08-25T20:32:46Z ehu: rpg: diff extracted and patch committed.
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2014-08-25T20:51:39Z dlowe: this is pretty sexy: http://tapoueh.org/blog/2014/08/25-pgcharts.html
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2014-08-25T20:52:12Z whartung: nice
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2014-08-25T20:53:18Z Xach: from dim
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2014-08-25T21:02:20Z puchacz: hi, do you guys know any BeyondCompare plugin that makes it Lisp syntax aware?
2014-08-25T21:02:45Z puchacz: or maybe you use any other Lisp-aware diff tool?
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2014-08-25T21:09:38Z Xach: What does BeyondCompare do when it's language-aware?
2014-08-25T21:09:45Z Xach: I am not familiar BeyondCompare
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2014-08-25T21:27:30Z spockokt: Xach: its an ftp client i believe
2014-08-25T21:27:45Z spockokt: which comes with a text editor
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2014-08-25T21:39:45Z Xach: tusen tack
2014-08-25T21:40:51Z ejbs: Why are everyone talking about and in Swedish today?!
2014-08-25T21:41:05Z Xach: vi snakker norsk
2014-08-25T21:41:26Z Shinmera: Multikultureller channel
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2014-08-25T21:43:24Z ejbs: norska? Det är iallafall inte danska
2014-08-25T21:43:43Z Ven: when I (ql:quickload "alexandria"), I get all these helpers in alexandria:, but can I get it without a prefix?
2014-08-25T21:43:52Z Ven: I don't know much about "modules" in CL, links appreciated :)
2014-08-25T21:44:42Z Ven: (alexandria looks really great btw, kudos to its dev)
2014-08-25T21:45:47Z ejbs: Ven: Sure! You can (use-package :alexandria)
2014-08-25T21:47:03Z ejbs: Ven: http://www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html
2014-08-25T21:47:18Z Ven: ejbs: great, thanks :)
2014-08-25T21:48:31Z Ven: ejbs: I'm barely starting "on lisp" :P
2014-08-25T21:49:53Z pjb: Ven: modules are deprecated.  Just ignore them.
2014-08-25T21:50:01Z Shinmera: starting with On Lisp is not a good idea imo.
2014-08-25T21:50:19Z Ven: pjb: I meant "modules" in a general sense, sorry. Didn't know the word for it
2014-08-25T21:50:28Z pjb: Systems, then.
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2014-08-25T21:53:25Z BitPuffin: Hmm strange, http://www.clisp.org/ is blocked from sourceforge
2014-08-25T21:53:48Z BitPuffin: temporarily
2014-08-25T21:53:57Z BitPuffin: is it getting ddos'd?
2014-08-25T21:54:01Z Ven: Shinmera: I'm just going along, really. I have both "50 years of lisp" and "on lisp" opened
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2014-08-25T21:54:30Z ejbs: Ven: The book? I'd not recommend starting with that one! Land of Lisp or Practical Common Lisp are my recs
2014-08-25T21:54:48Z stanislav: "on lisp" is a sequel to "ansi common lisp"
2014-08-25T21:55:18Z Shinmera: Ven: As many others would as well, I would suggest starting with Practical Common Lisp.
2014-08-25T21:55:38Z Aranshada|W: Practical Common Lisp gives you the knowledge you actually need to read Paul Graham's disjointed ramblings.
2014-08-25T21:55:44Z Shinmera: heh
2014-08-25T21:55:57Z Aranshada|W: I couldn't even understand ANSI Common Lisp until I'd read 20 or so chapters from Practical Common Lisp.
2014-08-25T21:56:06Z Aranshada|W: Overall, PCL is just so much better organized.
2014-08-25T21:56:19Z Aranshada|W: And you don't have sentences like, "But that takes keyword arguments which we haven't introduced yet."
2014-08-25T21:56:33Z Aranshada|W: And then he introduces keyword arguments 2 pages later as an aside.
2014-08-25T21:56:34Z antoszka: haha
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2014-08-25T21:56:51Z Aranshada|W: During a chapter about lists.
2014-08-25T21:56:55Z Aranshada|W: And functions that operate on lists.
2014-08-25T21:56:56Z Aranshada|W: It's insane.
2014-08-25T21:57:08Z Aranshada|W: I get it now why people said Paul Graham's books really weren't that good.
2014-08-25T21:57:11Z Aranshada|W: =\
2014-08-25T21:57:17Z Ven: ejbs: well, I have some racket and clojure experience behind, so I mostly wanted to see what CL is made of
2014-08-25T21:57:17Z Ven: (I mean, I don't plan to go full CL for the next 50 years :P)
2014-08-25T21:57:39Z Ven: well, but I knew keyword arguments anyway
2014-08-25T21:57:46Z antoszka: Aranshada|W: I quite liked his essays (H&P).
2014-08-25T21:58:02Z Ven: I hear what you're saying tho, it's very frustrating in a lot of books.
2014-08-25T21:58:09Z antoszka: But the best lisp writing style award must go to Norvig. And Seibel.
2014-08-25T21:58:32Z Aranshada|W: antoszka: I did start with reading his essays, and most of those are very coherent. It's just when he gets around to actually trying to teach rather than preach.
2014-08-25T22:01:13Z spockokt: lisp: the golden hammer
2014-08-25T22:01:13Z ejbs: Ven: Then I'd *definitely* go with PCL. You want to learn CLOS
2014-08-25T22:01:13Z antoszka: Yeah.
2014-08-25T22:01:13Z Ven: I'm not too big on OO ;)
2014-08-25T22:01:13Z Aranshada|W: You will be.
2014-08-25T22:01:14Z Ven: no, I promise I won't.
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2014-08-25T22:01:14Z Aranshada|W: Once you're not restricted by OOP, you can fully experience the power of OOP.
2014-08-25T22:01:14Z Aranshada|W: Or something like that.
2014-08-25T22:01:14Z antoszka: Hope to be there one day…
2014-08-25T22:01:14Z Aranshada|W: I still don't understand the whole mess of :before, :after, and :around stuff.
2014-08-25T22:01:14Z Ven: I've never been restricted by OOP. I left OOP because it was a restricting model
2014-08-25T22:01:14Z oGMo: Aranshada|W: er, there's not really that much to it :p
2014-08-25T22:01:14Z Aranshada|W: But that's alright.
2014-08-25T22:01:14Z Ven: Though I do intend to see how CLOS works, because I believe it's one proof of how CL can "evolve" without needing to extend the language
2014-08-25T22:01:15Z p_l: well, once you stop being held prisoner by abused class-oriented simula-like model pushed with a hammer
2014-08-25T22:01:15Z oGMo: it's not magic or hard, so don't ascribe magic or difficulty to it
2014-08-25T22:01:15Z Aranshada|W: oGMo: I guess what confused me was when he said you have :before and :after, and the default order of method execution is opposite, but then you introduce :around which is actually like :before-before.... I lost it.
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2014-08-25T22:01:18Z oGMo: p_l: bah, clos is not that different really, and in some ways class-oriented oop is less restrictive
2014-08-25T22:01:39Z Shinmera: Ven: You cannot know whether you were restricted or not until you experience freedom.
2014-08-25T22:01:51Z oGMo: i.e., "congruent lambda lists" are pretty painful, as is method-specific rather than class-specific method combination
2014-08-25T22:01:54Z Aranshada|W: Shinmera: That sounds like the basic premise behind learning Lisp.
2014-08-25T22:02:01Z Aranshada|W: :)
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2014-08-25T22:02:15Z Ven: Shinmera: I've experienced freedom already, and I still stopped believing in OO. Is that bad for some reason :)?
2014-08-25T22:02:48Z Shinmera: I don't know, I keep experiencing new freedom, so I don't think believing that you've ever seen it all is a good idea.
2014-08-25T22:03:05Z oGMo: OO is just one often-handy way to dispatch. dispatching is a pretty useful thing.
2014-08-25T22:03:36Z Ven: I'm fine with my ADTs :)
2014-08-25T22:03:46Z spockokt: if you are good at small talk you learn to be good with OO and a hit at parties
2014-08-25T22:04:14Z spockokt: *budum tss*
2014-08-25T22:04:17Z spockokt: sorry. offtopic joke
2014-08-25T22:04:58Z Denommus: Ven: CLOS is a lot more similar to typeclass-style dispatch than traditional OOP
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2014-08-25T22:05:13Z Ven: Denommus: define "traditional oop"? java oop?
2014-08-25T22:05:38Z oGMo: Ven: methods attached to classes or instances
2014-08-25T22:05:46Z Ven: I've done OOP in smalltalk, js and others like scala and moose, so I've seen some. Not to say that CLOS isn't better ofc, becuse I don't know it yet.
2014-08-25T22:05:54Z Denommus: Ven: in this specific case, single dispatch OOP (which means most object systems you'll see out there)
2014-08-25T22:06:07Z whartung: generic methods are really a different beast than class based dispatch
2014-08-25T22:06:16Z whartung: imho
2014-08-25T22:07:14Z whartung: generic functions I should say
2014-08-25T22:07:14Z Shinmera: and if you really need to for whatever crazy reason, you can simply add class-based dispatch
2014-08-25T22:07:37Z whartung: you could certainly write code like it was class based
2014-08-25T22:07:55Z Shinmera: http://blog.tymoon.eu/article/286
2014-08-25T22:08:04Z Xach: you can tell when people do stuff like (defmethod frob ((this my-thing) ...) ...)
2014-08-25T22:08:06Z oGMo: CLOS is nice because you can customize it quite a bit, with custom metaclasses and your own method dispatching, but that only goes so far, and doesn't solve the two main annoyances above i run into regularly
2014-08-25T22:08:14Z oGMo: it's a far cry beyond something like ruby/js and to a lesser degree smalltalk's "class-only" dispatch certainly, and edges out C++ on the flexibility
2014-08-25T22:08:45Z oGMo: whartung: only slightly semantically
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2014-08-25T22:10:13Z whartung: what are your main annoyances oGMo
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2014-08-25T22:11:12Z oGMo: but C++ can dispatch on non-member functions, so if you wrote all your c++ as foo(x, ..) you'd just be lacking custom method combination
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2014-08-25T22:12:11Z whartung: C++ dispatch is computed at compile time, CLOS is computed at runtime. that's another distinction
2014-08-25T22:12:38Z Ven: whartung: except for virtual...
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2014-08-25T22:12:39Z oGMo: whartung: what i said above: congruent lambda-lists and method- rather than class-specific combination
2014-08-25T22:12:57Z whartung: Java you get the worst of both world -- compile time dispatch, with the runtime cost of runtime dispatch
2014-08-25T22:13:05Z whartung: oh, Idid't see that oGMo
2014-08-25T22:13:14Z oGMo: whartung: i'm not sure clos is guaranteed to be dynamic, so with a sufficiently stodgy lisp, you could do it at compile time
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2014-08-25T22:14:32Z whartung: yea I can't speak to that oGMo -- that was one of the drivers for sealed classes in Dylan, was a mechanism to move towards a compile time dispatch model as necessary.
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2014-08-25T22:15:14Z rpg: ehu: just saw the patch is in....
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2014-08-25T22:15:16Z oGMo: though presumably you can continue to add methods, which would need recomputed, and you may not know what class something is at compile time, so you'd definitely need to do some runtime dispatch
2014-08-25T22:15:20Z oGMo: lag
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2014-08-25T22:16:23Z whartung: It would be nice with appropriate declarations to be able to get to compile time dspatch with CLOS
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2014-08-25T22:17:07Z whartung: I don't know if any of the modern compilers are "sufficiently smart enough" to do that yet
2014-08-25T22:17:37Z oGMo: unless it's built into the compiler you'd have a hard time unfortunately .. one of my other (rather short list) of gripes with CL, is the lack of access to type inference information in compiler macros and similar ;/
2014-08-25T22:17:39Z whartung: I can't even say if there's enough drive and demand for it in the first palce
2014-08-25T22:18:15Z oGMo: probably not
2014-08-25T22:18:44Z whartung: you can always add that to SBCL oGMo  :)
2014-08-25T22:18:56Z oGMo: clos calls in sbcl are pretty fast as it is .. might not want to use it for the heaviest computation, but you'd want to profile
2014-08-25T22:19:10Z whartung: well, yea, exactly
2014-08-25T22:19:47Z whartung: the point being that we have sufficiently fast machines and sufficiently smart programmers to handle the .01% cases
2014-08-25T22:20:14Z whartung: have the CLOS generic function wrap a normal function, call the normal function from your tight loop as noted by a profiler.
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2014-08-25T22:20:57Z ejbs: oGMo: Doesn't cltl2 give you something like that? I think it exposes DECLAREs
2014-08-25T22:21:31Z whartung: but consider how much is being done with, effectively, an algol-ized Scheme….and, apparenlty, it's "fast enough"
2014-08-25T22:22:26Z oGMo: ejbs: not sure, and probably not portably
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2014-08-25T22:24:40Z jasom: oGMo: has there been significant performanec improvements recently to sbcl?  About 2-3 years ago I rewrote a generic function to be an etypecase that manually dispatched to non-generic functions and got a significant speedup
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2014-08-25T22:25:39Z jasom: oGMo: and a compiler could in theory generate identical code for doing dispatch, so there was clearly room for improvement
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2014-08-25T22:30:19Z tokenrove: beach recently presented an interesting paper on speeding up generic dispatch in CL by a factor of five or so compared to current implementations
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2014-08-25T22:32:43Z tokenrove: an even more aggressively optimizing compiler that was able to make whole-program assumptions could even go further and insert dispatch code at call sites
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2014-08-25T22:33:15Z Ven: is there a built-in (or in alexandria) that does something like `(remove nil (mapcar fn lst))`? maybe a mapcar with indices? or a partition function?
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2014-08-25T22:36:46Z tokenrove: ven: you could use mapcan, and wrap fn so it returns a list
2014-08-25T22:37:08Z Ven: tokenrove: for the first one?
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2014-08-25T22:37:57Z tokenrove: see the mapcan examples in the clhs.  unless i misunderstood your question.
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2014-08-25T22:40:49Z Ashiren: :O
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2014-08-25T22:41:42Z Ven: oh, mapcan flattens
2014-08-25T22:43:45Z jasom: (mapcar (lambda (&rest r &aux (result (apply fn r))) (when result (list result))) ...) ought to do it
2014-08-25T22:43:53Z jasom: s/mapcar/mapcan
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2014-08-25T22:45:21Z jasom: of course you could always do (loop for item in list
2014-08-25T22:45:45Z jasom: of course you could always do (loop for item in list for result = (fn item) when result collect it)
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2014-08-25T22:51:04Z Xach: so many options
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2014-08-25T22:54:29Z drmeister: I saw some signs of life from my Intellectual Property office.  They wanted me to confirm some lawyerish issues: "(confirm) if your code is not inadvertently tainted by code that is already published" and "Will you expect any sort of compensation for this code, if any?"
2014-08-25T22:54:48Z drmeister: It sounds like the lawyers are at work.
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2014-08-25T22:55:51Z drmeister: "I believe about 20% of my code is tainted by source code from ECL which is LGPL and why it makes sense to release Clasp under LGPL" and "no - I don't expect any sort of compensation".
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2014-08-25T22:56:38Z drmeister: I also implemented a replacement for C++ dynamic_cast.   It speeds my code up by about 25%.
2014-08-25T22:57:23Z drmeister: So while I wait for the lawyers I adapt, adopt and improve.
2014-08-25T22:57:32Z Xach: tainted
2014-08-25T22:57:42Z drmeister: It sounds like such an ugly thing.
2014-08-25T22:57:58Z Xach: drmeister: if it takes a while you can move on to lisp-powered computer-aided lititgation
2014-08-25T22:58:16Z drmeister: I prefer "inspired by", "learned from" or "monkey saw, monkey did".
2014-08-25T22:58:39Z Xach: "this beef was inspired by e.coli rich feces"
2014-08-25T22:58:48Z Xach: sorry! too much.
2014-08-25T22:59:52Z Xach: hmm
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2014-08-25T23:00:27Z Xach: http://philip.greenspun.com/mjcal/case-space.html is the thing that i read a while ago that made me think about computer-aided litigation. i forgot it had some details about a common lisp program called KTA, "Knowledge Theorist for Attorneys"
2014-08-25T23:00:53Z drmeister: It's my pathname, stream and numerical stack code that is inspired by ECL.   There are so much logic in that code.  So many corner cases that they resemble porcupines.
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2014-08-25T23:01:14Z drmeister: "There is so much logic...".
2014-08-25T23:01:20Z Xach: I wonder if the source ever got out.
2014-08-25T23:01:28Z drmeister: Which source?
2014-08-25T23:02:13Z Ven: wow, I can't even get quicklisp loaded with sbcl --script
2014-08-25T23:02:54Z ejbs: Ven: What error do you get?
2014-08-25T23:02:57Z drmeister: My startup time is 4 seconds now using the MPS garbage collector with the homebrew dynamic_cast.
2014-08-25T23:03:21Z Ven: ejbs: I just don't seem to understand how to load it. with --load path/to/quicklisp, I still get can't load file. Must be something on my end
2014-08-25T23:03:54Z AeroNotix: Ven: http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/
2014-08-25T23:03:59Z AeroNotix: follow the instructions on there
2014-08-25T23:04:05Z AeroNotix: and when you say "something doesn't work"
2014-08-25T23:04:16Z Ven: AeroNotix: Yeah, I know! It works in the repl, perfectly so.
2014-08-25T23:04:18Z AeroNotix: You *must* give the error output or at least some kind of indication why it doesn't work.
2014-08-25T23:04:20Z Ven: That's why it's plain surprising.
2014-08-25T23:04:35Z drmeister: I think the next optimization is to write a new front-end to my compiler that does language level optimizations.
2014-08-25T23:05:12Z Xach: Ven: I don't think --script is meant to be used like that. i would use --load instead.
2014-08-25T23:05:38Z Ven: Xach: I'm not using script to load ql, only in the shebang
2014-08-25T23:05:50Z drmeister: Once I release this thing I'm going to be searching for people who want to help write a better compiler in the vein of Clasp.  A Common Lisp compiler that works like a library and enables the development of Common Lisp static analysis tools.
2014-08-25T23:06:18Z drmeister: "vein of Clang"  sheesh - brain wants one thing, fingers do another.
2014-08-25T23:07:30Z Xach: Ven: I don't understand, sorry. What's for?
2014-08-25T23:07:50Z drmeister: BBL
2014-08-25T23:07:57Z Ven: Xach: not to launch it as a repl
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2014-08-25T23:08:12Z Xach: Ven: What would you do with it if you didn't have a repl?
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2014-08-25T23:08:21Z Ven: Xach: err, run the code?
2014-08-25T23:08:43Z Xach: Ven: What code?
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2014-08-25T23:08:48Z Ven: Xach: my file's code?
2014-08-25T23:09:01Z Ven: I said I was using --script from a shebang
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2014-08-25T23:09:09Z Xach: Oh. Quicklisp doesn't really work like that. And I think shebang lines can only portably support a single argument.
2014-08-25T23:09:18Z Xach: Quicklisp isn't well-tuned to be stuck in scripts.
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2014-08-25T23:09:31Z Ven: Xach: well, it seems to work correctly
2014-08-25T23:09:38Z Xach: But, if you wanted to do it anyway, you could use (load "/path/to/quicklisp/setup.lisp") in your script somewhere.
2014-08-25T23:09:49Z Ven: yeah, that's what I'm doing
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2014-08-25T23:11:27Z Xach: Oh. Do you still have a problem with something?
2014-08-25T23:11:56Z Ven: Xach: no, it seems to work right now, thanks :). Why should I not use QL from scripts?
2014-08-25T23:12:23Z Xach: Ven: Loading stuff is slow and prints stuff, and can involve downloading stuff, so runtimes vary.
2014-08-25T23:12:37Z Ven: Xach: so usually, local copy is better?
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2014-08-25T23:13:48Z Ven: but indeed, printing and slow...
2014-08-25T23:14:01Z Xach: Ven: I usually use buildapp to build a program that has everything already fetched and built.
2014-08-25T23:14:20Z Xach: The downside is it's more batchy, but i usually develop it in the repl interactively and quickly.
2014-08-25T23:14:26Z Xach: And the binaries are really big, but that doesn't bug me much.
2014-08-25T23:14:52Z Xach: In the language of our times, I wish there was a good scripting story for CL, but I don't know the path to it yet.
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2014-08-25T23:16:07Z Xach: For much of my stuff, I load everything and use the repl like a workbench, and do stuff that way. And when I need to run programs e.g. from cron or as a daemon or something, I use buildapp to save a binary to run. There are plenty of other approaches.
2014-08-25T23:16:20Z stanislav: Ven: on my machine any scripts involving loading asdf-systems start slowly, ~500ms
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2014-08-25T23:16:39Z Ven: I'm starting to rethink this decision to use libraries :(
2014-08-25T23:16:46Z stanislav: so I try to keep in a saved core the libraries I need and use that core for scripting
2014-08-25T23:17:04Z stanislav: Ven: you can take a look at cl-launch
2014-08-25T23:17:16Z bhyde: script'n ... cl-launch is certainly trying, but it's not quite there yet ... though I could easily just need to kick it harder
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2014-08-25T23:18:18Z bhyde: this works - https://github.com/bhyde/yed-lisp/blob/master/topology.sh - but it was hard to get it to work
2014-08-25T23:18:23Z Xach: stanislav: that seems like a pretty good approach. I bet 90% of the stuff I do could be done pretty well with just a handful of libraries.
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2014-08-25T23:24:58Z pillton: ven: There is also https://github.com/markcox80/lisp-executable
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2014-08-25T23:25:42Z Ven: well, that doesn't really solve the slowness problem :/
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2014-08-25T23:26:50Z jasom: Ven: cl-launch lets you build a standalone executable
2014-08-25T23:27:05Z jasom: Ven: doing so gets you faster startup than python
2014-08-25T23:27:06Z pillton: So does lisp-executable.
2014-08-25T23:27:08Z Ven: not what I want
2014-08-25T23:27:29Z stanislav: cl-launch lets you build what you want
2014-08-25T23:27:30Z Ven: too complicated or what I need :)
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2014-08-25T23:27:34Z stanislav: try saving a core
2014-08-25T23:27:34Z Ven: I just want something really simple to load stuff from QL, with cache (no redownload each script) and no printing
2014-08-25T23:27:42Z stanislav: complicated, yeah :)
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2014-08-25T23:28:12Z jasom: Ven: and a startup time of a few hundred ms isn't good enough?
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2014-08-25T23:28:34Z stanislav: you see, it takes time to bring code from outside to lisp's world, but once it's inside, you're done
2014-08-25T23:28:36Z Ven: jasom: well, it seems like unnecesary overhead indeed.
2014-08-25T23:28:45Z stanislav: save cores! D:
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2014-08-25T23:28:58Z Ven: stanislav: you mean just save the .lisps in some directory?
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2014-08-25T23:29:11Z stanislav: no, something like save-lisp-and-die
2014-08-25T23:29:25Z stanislav: in SBCL it's called a core, in CLISP it's usually called an image
2014-08-25T23:29:34Z stanislav: the "state of the world"
2014-08-25T23:29:35Z jasom: Ven: if I'm going to run it < 10 times, then 500ms works out to be less than 5s total wait time.  If I'm going to run it > 10 times, then it's worth building an executable
2014-08-25T23:30:04Z stanislav: if you load libraries and save the core, you can load the core afterwards, and the libraries are there
2014-08-25T23:30:06Z jasom: The nice thing about cl-launch is that you can switch between the two with just adding 2 flags
2014-08-25T23:30:07Z stanislav: and it's fast
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2014-08-25T23:30:15Z Ven: jasom: it's not. there's really no other language that puts you under such pain in 2014
2014-08-25T23:30:34Z Ven: stanislav: seems like a good solution
2014-08-25T23:30:56Z jasom: Ven: non-trivial imports on python take several-hundres ms as well
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2014-08-25T23:31:19Z Ven: jasom: but that's the import at works, not the importing system. I'm not importing non-trivial stuff
2014-08-25T23:31:40Z Ven: also, no, I havn't seen several-hundred ms ...
2014-08-25T23:32:19Z tokenrove: ven: oh, there are plenty of other languages that put one under such pain in 2014, they're just equally or more unpopular.
2014-08-25T23:32:28Z Ven: tokenrove: fair enough.
2014-08-25T23:32:29Z jasom: tokenrove: like C++
2014-08-25T23:32:39Z Ven: tokenrove: they usually have *terrible* package managers ;)
2014-08-25T23:33:02Z jasom: Ven: there has been discussion on reducing the start time for asdf
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2014-08-25T23:33:07Z stanislav: (but the problem between cores and scripting is that it becomes difficult to port the scripts to non-lispers' computers)
2014-08-25T23:33:23Z stanislav: s/between/with/
2014-08-25T23:35:08Z jasom: Ven: and if you eschew quicklisp the startup time becomes much less (you can dump all of the systems you want into ~/common-lisp/
2014-08-25T23:35:22Z jasom: about 100ms of startup time with sbcl on my machine
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2014-08-25T23:37:55Z Ven: I'll look into cores tomorrow.
2014-08-25T23:38:07Z Ven: I don't care at all about using this script on another computer...
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2014-08-26T01:38:16Z drmeister: I can't seem to catch Fare on IRC these days.
2014-08-26T01:38:47Z drmeister: Is anyone familiar with ASDF internals, specifically the CREATE-IMAGE function for building images on ECL?
2014-08-26T01:39:43Z drmeister: I'm trying to figure out how to figure out what object files get passed to CREATE-IMAGE for linking.
2014-08-26T01:44:11Z drmeister: I'm working on incorporating ASDF into my Common Lisp system (Clasp).   I'd like to try to build a small ASDF system.
2014-08-26T01:45:02Z drmeister: Does anyone have any recommendations for a small ASDF package that doesn't have any dependencies?
2014-08-26T01:46:42Z drmeister: Or where is a good list of libraries that use ASDF3?
2014-08-26T01:46:54Z drmeister: I'm looking at http://www.cliki.net
2014-08-26T01:56:45Z Xach: I think only Fare is familiar with asdf internals.
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2014-08-26T01:57:05Z JokesOnYou77: Hi all
2014-08-26T01:57:08Z Xach: drmeister: you could poke into quicklisp's metadata to find a library with no dependencies
2014-08-26T01:57:30Z Xach pokes
2014-08-26T01:57:57Z drmeister peeks
2014-08-26T01:58:05Z Xach: drmeister: anaphora, cl-css
2014-08-26T01:58:08Z Xach: bunches more
2014-08-26T01:58:39Z JokesOnYou77: I have a struct with a lot of values (75+) and I was wondering if the slot names are symbols or not.  As in, are they only represented once in memory for multiple occurrences of the struct?
2014-08-26T01:59:32Z Xach: JokesOnYou77: that's up to the implementation. i can imagine a good implementation will store things efficiently, but i don't know how a particular implementation actually does it.
2014-08-26T01:59:43Z JokesOnYou77: Xach, LispWorks
2014-08-26T01:59:56Z drmeister: I'm looking at anaphora.
2014-08-26T02:00:08Z Bike: i wouldn't worry about it, let alone on lispworks
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2014-08-26T02:01:19Z JokesOnYou77: So if I have a fairly Large tree of structs (on the order of 10^6 nodes in the tree) with each struct having 75+ slots, I don't have to worry about the slot name being represented more than once in memory? I'm optimizing code.
2014-08-26T02:01:31Z Xach: JokesOnYou77: I suspect it's "just" a vector with some header data pointing to the layout, but I have no idea. someone like stassats or pkhuong or Krystof might know.
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2014-08-26T02:02:30Z Xach: JokesOnYou77: the lisp-hug list is super-friendly and the maintainers of lispworks answer questions there. there are not so many lispworks users here.
2014-08-26T02:02:55Z Xach: JokesOnYou77: out of curiosity, what kind of stuff do you model with a 75-slot struct?
2014-08-26T02:03:06Z JokesOnYou77: Xach, the layout?  And ok.  I'll ask around on a mailing list, and thanks for trying to answer in any case (I'm still learning something which is good)
2014-08-26T02:03:28Z JokesOnYou77: Xach, Tokenizing UTF-8 strings :D
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2014-08-26T02:04:21Z Xach: Into 75 distinct pieces?
2014-08-26T02:05:08Z JokesOnYou77: For string parsing a multibyte character encoding you need to either have an Lisp implementation that handles UTF-8 (LW uses UTF-16 internally) or you need to have a struct that can represent each of the possible 127 bytes in a multi-byte encoding
2014-08-26T02:05:28Z JokesOnYou77: I'm doing natural language processing.
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2014-08-26T02:06:52Z JokesOnYou77: ONe slot ber byte/letter and doing (char-code ) doesn't work when your internal representation isn't the same encoding as the thing your reading.  So rather than do conversions we just read and parse raw byte values
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2014-08-26T02:08:15Z Xach: The character codes you're reading are out of range for LispWorks characters?
2014-08-26T02:09:08Z JokesOnYou77: UTF-8 is up to 4 bytes.  UTF-16 (LW) uses 16 bit words.  So the character range isn't even in the same space really
2014-08-26T02:09:29Z JokesOnYou77: In sort, yes
2014-08-26T02:09:33Z JokesOnYou77: *short
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2014-08-26T02:10:36Z Xach: Where does the 75-slot struct come in?
2014-08-26T02:12:04Z JokesOnYou77: It's actually not quite 75, but it's around there.  Each slot is one of the 127 values in a UTF-8 byte (the first byte isn't actually used in the encoding)
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2014-08-26T02:13:04Z Xach: Does the struct represent a word?
2014-08-26T02:13:18Z Xach: What are the slot names?
2014-08-26T02:13:51Z Xach: Feel free not to explain. I don't have to be not confused. I'm just curious.
2014-08-26T02:14:04Z JokesOnYou77: It's actually proprietary, so I can't spill the whole thing :P  But I can explain a bit
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2014-08-26T02:15:01Z Xach: The idea of a struct with 75 slots just seems so outlandish, and I don't understand whether each slot holds a code, or if there's one struct per incoming code, or what.
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2014-08-26T02:15:49Z JokesOnYou77: A text is read in and a tree is created dynamically with each node in the tree being a character/byte.  The structs that are the nodes have a slot filled depending on what that byte was.  Those structs are actually joined by another kind of struct depending on how the string is parsed and tokenized.
2014-08-26T02:16:33Z ChibaPet: That's an odd granularity for natural language processing, isn't it?
2014-08-26T02:16:55Z JokesOnYou77: The slot names are actually things like q10 and q15 becasue making them actual numbers seemed to cause a problem.  That's why I was wondering about slot names as symbols
2014-08-26T02:17:30Z Xach: What kind of value would be in slot q10?
2014-08-26T02:17:33Z JokesOnYou77: ChibaPet, Yes, but that's why our NLP is better :)
2014-08-26T02:17:49Z Xach: t? the value 10? another struct?
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2014-08-26T02:18:38Z JokesOnYou77: Xach, should be a byte with a valye of 10.  so 00001010 I think
2014-08-26T02:19:06Z ChibaPet: ===8^0
2014-08-26T02:19:23Z JokesOnYou77: ChibaPet, This is jsut how we store the text internally for lookups and processing.  We actually use this larger tree struct for tokenization as well
2014-08-26T02:20:02Z ChibaPet: Alright then.
2014-08-26T02:20:38Z Xach: JokesOnYou77: oh. i'd expect to use a single slot with a name like "character-code" and stuff 10 in it, instead.
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2014-08-26T02:22:57Z JokesOnYou77: Xach, Yeah, we tried a bunch of stuff when we started out, the way we do insertions and serches on the tree ends up requiring multiple slots. But we use a serializer (spelling?) to actually store the structs so we don't have a bunch of nil slots.
2014-08-26T02:23:43Z Bike: so any given struct isn't actually using the majority of the 75 slots?
2014-08-26T02:24:02Z Bike: i think you should focus on that weirdness before worrying about possible implementational memory issues...
2014-08-26T02:24:52Z JokesOnYou77: ...Sigh, many a fight was had concerning that.  It's ongoing.
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2014-08-26T02:26:58Z Xach: well the lispworks mailing list is super-helpful and will answer anything
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2014-08-26T02:28:24Z JokesOnYou77: Ok, we had a LW guy as a consultant for a while, but I didn't want to bug him about this if it was something straight forward.  I'll try him Thanks for the help you guys :)
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2014-08-26T02:30:44Z drmeister: JokesOnYou77: Were you worried that structs are represented by some kind of key/value structure like a hash-table or balanced tree?   They aren't, the slots are represented as an array of pointers and the names are stored with the class and used by the compiler to generate code that indexes into the array.   That's how ECL works and I'm sure that's how every other Lisp works.
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2014-08-26T02:32:27Z drmeister is a little late to the party but felt this point wasn't made.
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2014-08-26T02:37:51Z drmeister: JokesOnYou77:  You can verify this yourself and control the memory representation of a struct as follows:   (defstruct (dummy (:type vector)) a b c)  (setq a (make-dummy :a 1 :b 2 :c 3))  (length a) --> 3
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2014-08-26T02:39:33Z Bike: well, it's not like a non-vector struct has to be represented in any particular way. but of course any implementation probably won't do anything too crazy.
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2014-08-26T02:40:07Z JokesOnYou77: drmeister, I wasn't worried about key-value pair or something like that.  But rather that I have a ton of the same struct, all with many slots and I was wondering if the slot names are symbols so that they are only stored once im memory.
2014-08-26T02:40:26Z Bike: under mop they're symbols, probably
2014-08-26T02:40:43Z Bike: more to the point, the slot names aren't even stored in any individual struct object (again, probably)
2014-08-26T02:40:49Z Zhivago: Not that you store the slot names in the struct.
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2014-08-26T02:41:00Z Zhivago: That's abstracted by the accessor functions.
2014-08-26T02:41:03Z drmeister: Symbols stored in the slot definitions associated with the class object, not with the instances.
2014-08-26T02:41:13Z Zhivago: And possibly not even there.
2014-08-26T02:41:58Z JokesOnYou77: Ok, awesome.
2014-08-26T02:42:43Z JokesOnYou77: My explaining how stupid the one slot per UTF-8 byte has prompted me to reignite this particular argument.  We'll see what happens.
2014-08-26T02:43:21Z Zhivago: Um, what one slot per UTF-8 byte?
2014-08-26T02:43:54Z Bike: jokes's particular application, explained a few minutes ago.
2014-08-26T02:44:14Z Zhivago: Ah, I was disconnected.
2014-08-26T02:44:35Z drmeister: It sounds like trie.
2014-08-26T02:44:37Z Bike: something to do with string parsing.
2014-08-26T02:45:07Z drmeister: Memory inefficient but very fast for searching.
2014-08-26T02:45:18Z Zhivago: So, why would you use a struct to represent it?
2014-08-26T02:45:24Z drmeister: But yeah - why a struct rather than a vector.
2014-08-26T02:45:44Z Zhivago: There's a nice and efficient representation that Bagwell did a while back.
2014-08-26T02:46:29Z Zhivago: It uses an ordered list up until some critical size and then adds a bitmap to index it.
2014-08-26T02:47:36Z Zhivago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hash_array_mapped_trie
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2014-08-26T02:49:08Z JokesOnYou77: So the one slot per UTF-8 byte value was so that a single tree of these structs could be use to represent arbitrary data, and some paths (strings are paths in the tree) may be more than one byte.  The internal debate is if that actually saves us any space because on a very large corpus everything will just break down into indivicual letters anyways.
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2014-08-26T02:50:15Z JokesOnYou77: Zhivago, We tried a trie/hashtable a few years ago in the previous implementation.  Both hashtables and vectors are too slow because of bounds checking.  This struct we created is faster than both.  Structs don't do bounds checking
2014-08-26T02:50:49Z JokesOnYou77: We also tried a simple radix tree but that had it's own problems
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2014-08-26T02:50:53Z Zhivago: Hmm, not using an implementation that reasons with types?
2014-08-26T02:51:04Z JokesOnYou77: Zhivago, ?
2014-08-26T02:51:32Z JokesOnYou77: Zhivago, LispWorks.
2014-08-26T02:51:44Z Bike: in some implementations it's pretty easy to remove bounds checking with proper declarations
2014-08-26T02:51:46Z Zhivago: if you have a (vector T (N)) type, then it shouldn't bounds check.
2014-08-26T02:51:53Z JokesOnYou77: Zhivago, reaons with types?  You're going to have to help me out, I'm still learning a lot about Lisp
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2014-08-26T02:55:53Z JokesOnYou77: Bike, I learned Lisp in college (2 years ago) and unfortunately not a lot of declarations in my AI class. Can I get a resource on doing type declarations?
2014-08-26T02:56:15Z Bike: Um, I don't know. Is that in PCL? I forget.
2014-08-26T02:56:16Z JokesOnYou77: With gratuitous examples if possible
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2014-08-26T03:08:25Z drmeister: This is the kind of thing I developed Clasp for - you would represent the low level data structures in C++ classes and then manipulate them in Common Lisp.
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2014-08-26T03:13:39Z drmeister: Then you could do stuff like represent the structs as coded sparse strings wherein sequential runs of empty slots are coded as a single value. In C++ you would uncompress and compress these strings on the fly but to Common Lisp it would behave like a regular struct.
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2014-08-26T03:14:51Z JokesOnYou77: Yeah.  We have serializer for storing the tree that removes the empty values
2014-08-26T03:16:25Z drmeister: That's where I got the idea from, in memory you could represent them in a similar compact manner.
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2014-08-26T04:35:21Z loke: Is there a some software that can help maintaining runtime state between multiple applications/servers? I'm thinking something like a non-persistent hashmap that multiple maches can access? (in the particular case, it's a web server that may have many instances, but session state needs to be kept somewhere. I could use a database, but there is no need for it to be persistent)
2014-08-26T04:35:30Z loke: What are the cool kids using these days?
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2014-08-26T04:36:37Z pillton searches the office for cool kids. 
2014-08-26T04:36:42Z H4ns: that sounds like memcached
2014-08-26T04:37:04Z loke: I heard the name, but neverlookeda t the prodct
2014-08-26T04:37:08Z loke: I'll read up on it, thanks
2014-08-26T04:37:32Z loke: I'm using Couchdb for persistent storage, but it's not good for keeping rapidly changing shared state
2014-08-26T04:37:55Z H4ns: memcached is a persistent distributed memory cache.  it is popular for precisely the setting that you describe (couchdb or mysql caching)
2014-08-26T04:38:04Z loke: Excellent
2014-08-26T04:38:08Z loke: I will play with it
2014-08-26T04:38:13Z H4ns: although "cool kids" would not be what i call the people who use that kind of stuff :)
2014-08-26T04:38:40Z loke: True enough
2014-08-26T04:39:15Z loke: the cool kids (or whatever you want to call the "startup scene") builds crap with mysql and PHP and then sells their product before it fails
2014-08-26T04:39:42Z brucem: loke: Redis perhaps.
2014-08-26T04:40:06Z loke: brucem: Yeah. I've used redics. It's kinda nice actually
2014-08-26T04:40:08Z loke: redis
2014-08-26T04:40:29Z loke: And it definitely have proven that it has the performace. Redrube runs on it
2014-08-26T04:40:32Z loke: I mean redtube
2014-08-26T04:40:51Z H4ns: porn proven
2014-08-26T04:40:56Z loke: Indeed
2014-08-26T04:41:35Z loke: I read an article about redtube. These guys know what massive loads means (in both meanings of the term)
2014-08-26T04:42:08Z loke: Oh wait, maybe it was pornhub. Anyway, the numbers were just staggering
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2014-08-26T04:47:25Z drmeister: I'm going to submit an abstract to the Oct 2014 LLVM meeting - would anyone have a moment to look it over?  https://gist.github.com/drmeister/fba7c2eee60d8b65e178
2014-08-26T04:47:46Z drmeister: You can hit "Raw" to make it readable.
2014-08-26T04:49:48Z loke: drmeister: Any news on the licensing?
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2014-08-26T04:51:33Z drmeister: loke: I got some lawyer questions today - they wanted to know if any of my code was tainted by other open source code and whether I expected compensation.
2014-08-26T04:51:38Z drmeister: So their working on it.
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2014-08-26T04:52:20Z drmeister: I'm trying to push them to move faster.  They are going to say yes at some point and I've got a Department of Defense meeting in a couple of weeks and I want to be able to say it's out there.
2014-08-26T04:52:55Z drmeister: "So they're working on it"  sheesh.
2014-08-26T04:53:31Z drmeister: I write code better more than I write english these days.
2014-08-26T04:53:47Z drmeister slams head on desk a few times.
2014-08-26T04:54:03Z drmeister: How apropos.
2014-08-26T04:55:50Z drmeister must try to remember, write, read, read again and only then - press enter.
2014-08-26T04:57:07Z drmeister: So in that abstract I'm not saying anything objectionable about Common Lisp?  This is my first abstract for a software engineering conference.
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2014-08-26T04:58:49Z loke: Reads like a usual abstarct to me :-)
2014-08-26T05:00:55Z drmeister: loke: Thank you.
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2014-08-26T09:21:57Z mood: drmeister: Nitpick: In that abstract you posted there's a sentence "Common Lisp has other language features...in other languages." which appears to be missing a "that" before "have only partially".
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2014-08-26T09:22:17Z mood: drmeister: Or maybe "which"
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2014-08-26T10:24:13Z H4ns: something has bothered me in a while:  what is the proper way to preprocess initargs?  i sometimes want to clean or validate initarg values before actually setting the slots.  would an initialize-instance :around method be the best way?
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2014-08-26T10:33:16Z loke: Yes
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2014-08-26T10:52:28Z AeroNotix: H4ns: that's the way I've been doing it
2014-08-26T10:53:34Z H4ns: thanks.  not very nice, but then...
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2014-08-26T10:57:33Z AeroNotix: It does separate things a bit unnecessarily
2014-08-26T10:57:49Z AeroNotix: What about adding a :validator to the slot?
2014-08-26T10:59:52Z H4ns: AeroNotix: the mop is a big hammer.
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2014-08-26T11:19:51Z AeroNotix: H4ns: I've not got deep into the MOP
2014-08-26T11:20:57Z H4ns: AeroNotix: it is very nice, but it is also a little clunky, compared to metaprogramming in other languages.
2014-08-26T11:21:28Z H4ns: AeroNotix: so "just adding a :validator slot option" involves quite some code that needs to be written.
2014-08-26T11:22:31Z AeroNotix: H4ns: I'll have to take your word for it. I've ordered some books to proper delve into the deeper CLOS/MOP stuff
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2014-08-26T13:49:00Z pjb: drmeister: you can do the same in lisp!  (defstruct thingy (data (make-array 16 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) :initial-value 0)))  and then you implement the structure slot accessor by compressing/decompressing (thingy-data gigi).
2014-08-26T13:49:34Z pjb: I mean, this is not a reason to write C++ code.  There's no reason to write new C++ code.  Clasp should only be used to _use_ _legacy_ _existing_ C++ code.
2014-08-26T13:49:44Z pjb: All new code should be written in Common Lisp.
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2014-08-26T13:50:48Z dlowe: until something better comes along
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2014-08-26T13:52:38Z drmeister: pjb: I won't dispute what you say.   But C++ is better at laying out memory compact structures and manipulating them than Common Lisp.
2014-08-26T13:53:26Z drmeister: C++ can do it without boxing/unboxing or structures of parallel arrays.
2014-08-26T13:53:56Z drmeister: I'm not saying this couldn't be done in Common Lisp.    These are Turing complete languages after all.
2014-08-26T13:54:22Z p_l: drmeister: eh, if you go into lower-level details, CL can do it as well. Usually, the issue is with allocating the storage in the first place and pointers etc.
2014-08-26T13:56:32Z drmeister: p_l: How would you allocate an array of C++ structures like struct Vect3 { double x; double y; double z;};  struct Foo { int depth; Vec3 vec; }; in Common Lisp?
2014-08-26T13:56:45Z splittist: drmeister: FWIW, I would reverse the presentation of CL and C++ in the second para of your abstract (so that C++ goes first, then CL, then the problem with interfaces, then the Clasp solution).
2014-08-26T13:57:47Z Bike: (defstruct vect3 (x :type double-float) (y :type double-float) (z :type double-float)) is probably reasonably packed
2014-08-26T13:57:48Z drmeister: Please don't get me wrong.  I _love_ Common Lisp and I _love_ C++.  The last three years of my live has been a sweaty menage-a-trios between me and these two languages.  I have a pretty good feel for what they are each good at.
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2014-08-26T13:58:57Z Adlai: thinking about the theoretical capabilities of well-written perfectly-optimized C++ is fun, but debugging the actual results... less so
2014-08-26T13:58:57Z H4ns: Bike: "is propably reasonably packed" is quite different from "creates a particular in-memory layout"
2014-08-26T13:59:01Z drmeister: Bike: But the vect3 double-float's will be boxed - won't they?  Do some implementations not box them?
2014-08-26T13:59:24Z Bike: drmeister: pretty sure they're unboxed in sbcl
2014-08-26T13:59:36Z p_l: drmeister: I'd probably use defstruct with vector allocation
2014-08-26T13:59:47Z Bike: H4ns: i think c++ structs are allowed to have some noncontiguity if they want? like for alignment
2014-08-26T14:00:02Z drmeister: p_l: Right but now you are working around Common Lisp to get an efficient memory layout.
2014-08-26T14:00:04Z p_l: drmeister: SBCL's type hints I think allow to avoid boxing most of the time
2014-08-26T14:00:20Z p_l: drmeister: that was assuming no ability to influence the implementation
2014-08-26T14:00:25Z H4ns: Bike: correct, but it is all very well defined.  in c++, you can just describe a certain memory layout, whereas in CL, the same thing is not quite as straightforward.
2014-08-26T14:00:51Z drmeister: H4ns: My point exactly.
2014-08-26T14:00:51Z p_l: the moment you allow going outside of ANSI spec, we can get funny including direct specification of memory locations
2014-08-26T14:01:26Z Bike: outside of interfacing with hardware or something i'm not sure i see the value of being that specific about memory layout, really
2014-08-26T14:01:34Z p_l: drmeister: https://github.com/ilitirit/manardb <--- not sure, but it should have a rather low-level memory layout descriptions :)
2014-08-26T14:01:35Z Bike: let alone bringing in an entire other language system just to do so
2014-08-26T14:01:45Z Bike: maybe that's naive of me
2014-08-26T14:01:56Z drmeister: Efficient memory layout is what the C++ language specification is designed for and Common Lisp - not so much.
2014-08-26T14:01:57Z dlowe: cache coherency
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2014-08-26T14:03:11Z dlowe: actually, when I was doing GL graphics, it was kind of a pain in the ass to do because the GL interface expects certain memory layouts
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2014-08-26T14:03:32Z pjb: drmeister: I dispute your assertion.  C and C++ only have pointers down to bytes, and only logand, logior logxor and lognot-not operators.  Common Lisp has much more flexible operators to work on bits, and thus working finely and easily with any layout.  It adds the full set of log??? operators; or you could use bit vectors with the bit-* operators;  or ldb/dpb with byte.
2014-08-26T14:03:33Z dlowe: for exactly the example drmeister gave - arrays of packet structs
2014-08-26T14:03:35Z dlowe: packed
2014-08-26T14:03:41Z drmeister: These days fast programs are memory efficient programs, cache aware programs.   I know how to write those in C++.   I don't know how to write them in Common Lisp.   Perhaps I haven't spent enough (any) time trying to do this in SBCL or whatever implementation of Common Lisp.
2014-08-26T14:03:55Z pjb: drmeister: Common Lisp as a language is actually better than C or C++ for low level bit fiddling.
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2014-08-26T14:05:10Z drmeister: pjb: That's why I grafted Common Lisp to C++. To get access to all those wonderful operators in Common Lisp.   But they aren't fast.  There is so much runtime dispatching in those flexible operators.
2014-08-26T14:05:17Z AeroNotix: *cough* Erlang *cough*
2014-08-26T14:05:17Z drmeister: At least in ECL there is.
2014-08-26T14:05:20Z pjb: drmeister: you don't know how to write those in C++.  It just happens that C and C++ compilers are optimized taking into account the bullshit C/C++ programmers write.  Result: most C and C++ programs are not portable even from 32-bit to 64-bit on the same architecture!
2014-08-26T14:06:26Z pjb: If you wanted to write correct C or C++ programs, you would do exactly the same as in Common Lisp, declare a unsigned char array and store things there, instead of using union and structs…
2014-08-26T14:06:55Z pjb: But since it would be more work intensive to do it in C/C++, they don't do it, and write buggy and brittle programs.
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2014-08-26T14:07:36Z p_l: drmeister: you could work on extending type derivation and compiler macros, I guess. Also things get easier if you can declare closed-world environment
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2014-08-26T14:08:18Z pjb: drmeister: otherwise, as a CL implementor, you can do a lot vs. memory and cache efficiency with the allocator and the garbage collector.
2014-08-26T14:09:46Z |3b|: pjb: problem isn't low-level bit manipulation, it is specific machine-level efficient heterogeneous layouts
2014-08-26T14:09:49Z drmeister: pjb: I don't know if I'm saying this properly but there are no semantics in Common Lisp to inform the garbage collector to keep specific data close to each other in memory.
2014-08-26T14:10:12Z drmeister: Once the GC starts moving things around it's anybodies guess where objects end up.
2014-08-26T14:10:23Z Zhivago: Nothing stops you from adding a C++ class layout metaclass, I guess.
2014-08-26T14:10:40Z |3b|: pjb: true, i can use bit ops to access a buffer with mixed floats and unsigned-byte 8, but not nearly as nicely/efficiently as c/c++
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2014-08-26T14:10:44Z pjb: drmeister: neither in C/C++: there is a lot of freedom given to implementations to put fillers in structure (to "align" slots).
2014-08-26T14:11:04Z pjb: drmeister: just use byte vectors, both in C++ and in Common Lisp, to manage it from the application.
2014-08-26T14:11:06Z |3b| suspects the easiest way in CL would be to use implementation specific FFI operations
2014-08-26T14:11:07Z drmeister: Zhivago: That's one way to do it.   Or you could add a domain specific language to Common Lisp that I like to call "C++" to deal with it.
2014-08-26T14:11:21Z p_l: drmeister: nothing in *ANSI*, similar to how nothing in C/C++ standard says how the data ends up in memory (packing etc. is implemention specific and undefined except for certain operations to work, and that char is 8 bits)
2014-08-26T14:11:22Z pjb: :-)
2014-08-26T14:11:30Z p_l: or rather, char is "1 byte"
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2014-08-26T14:11:55Z pjb: yes, it could be 9 bit, or 24 bits or 32 bits (on some architectures, DSPs, etc).
2014-08-26T14:12:19Z p_l: there's one specific DSP that is bit-addressable which thus had a rather horrible time implementing ANSI C
2014-08-26T14:12:27Z Adlai: how silly is hoping for TCO on a recursive :after method?
2014-08-26T14:12:27Z p_l: because "pointer+1" moved by one bit
2014-08-26T14:15:22Z Zhivago: Sure. :)
2014-08-26T14:15:44Z drmeister: All the stuff that you folks are describing wrt using Common Lisp to efficiently represent objects in memory is correct and has been possible for the last 20 years.   Yet for some reason, C and C++ are in the top two most popular languages.   It underlies how different the approach is that I've taken (once I can release this thing).   You can now use C++ as a domain specific language within Common Lisp to layout and manipulate memory effici
2014-08-26T14:15:44Z drmeister: ent data structures.
2014-08-26T14:16:16Z AeroNotix: I've seen one space between sentences, I've even seen two. But three is just pushing it.
2014-08-26T14:16:41Z p_l: drmeister: not many users of such data structures outside of on-disk formats among publicly known CL code
2014-08-26T14:16:51Z p_l: drmeister: one exception was ITA software. Another was manardb
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2014-08-26T14:17:10Z p_l: ... I'll barely mention my own attempt at linking C++ into CL
2014-08-26T14:17:40Z drmeister: There's plenty of overlap of functionality.   C++ keeps adding language features in an attempt to become more expressive.   They got lambda in 2011, only 50 years after it was developed in Lisp.  There are strengths in both languages and I see going forward lots of opportunities to write code in both languages that works together.
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2014-08-26T14:18:59Z Bike: i think maybe i just know enough C hackers that I get skeptical of its supposed memory powers. i know someone working on dolphin, and to have the wii's memory layout they mmap a huge block, at a specific integer pointer (!), then release it, then mmap bits of the block with different perms, because all the wii stuff has to be contiguous, but you can't do that without violating a bunch of standard everything
2014-08-26T14:19:53Z drmeister: Bike: Hydrogen and stupidity - the two most common elements in the universe.
2014-08-26T14:20:04Z Adlai: and i'm not sure about hydrogen
2014-08-26T14:20:09Z pjb: drmeister: in any case, it's good to have options.
2014-08-26T14:20:22Z drmeister: That's not fair.  I don't know what other constraints anyone is under when they write code.
2014-08-26T14:20:44Z drmeister: I just know what I want and I wasn't happy with the status quo.
2014-08-26T14:21:10Z pjb: Yay!
2014-08-26T14:21:31Z drmeister: And progress isn't made by reasonable people. :-)
2014-08-26T14:22:56Z H4ns: drmeister: can't you see how wrong it is of you to want something that is not entirely common lisp?
2014-08-26T14:24:17Z pjb: :-)
2014-08-26T14:24:51Z Adlai: hey, if he's compiling C++ to CL, in CL, that's fine by me
2014-08-26T14:25:25Z Bike: he's not, but i certainly don't mind clasp
2014-08-26T14:25:53Z Adlai: drmeister: where can i read about your project?
2014-08-26T14:26:16Z Adlai uses C++ at work now, so this is of potential relevance
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2014-08-26T14:27:08Z drmeister: H4ns: I know it's wrong and wicked! I just can't help myself.
2014-08-26T14:27:16Z H4ns: drmeister: :D
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2014-08-26T14:28:48Z pjb: The point is not to write more C++ code (or some other language), but instead to write more Common Lisp code.
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2014-08-26T14:29:13Z drmeister: Adlai: It's not out yet.  I'm waiting for my intellectual property office (I'm at Temple University in the US) to green-light open sourcing it under the LGPL.  Here's an abstract I wrote that I submitted to the LLVM conference at the end of October.  https://gist.github.com/drmeister/cc7a3b98d5bd248c2464
2014-08-26T14:29:27Z drmeister: Hit "Raw" to make it readable (sigh).
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2014-08-26T14:31:13Z eudoxia: drmeister: This is going to be great
2014-08-26T14:31:40Z pjb: It'll probably generate quite a buzz for a couple of years, I'd expect.
2014-08-26T14:31:48Z Adlai: would this be the first full CL on LLVM?
2014-08-26T14:32:02Z pjb: yes.
2014-08-26T14:32:02Z Xach: It can be hard to tell ironic stupidity from sincere stupidity online.
2014-08-26T14:32:05Z drmeister: pjb: The point for me is to write code, profile it and then rewrite the code to make it faster.  I don't really care what language it's in as long as I can do the complicated stuff in Common Lisp.   If I could do everything in Common Lisp that would be Nirvana.  I haven't lived a virtuous enough life to enter Nirvana.
2014-08-26T14:32:16Z drmeister: Or, well, I have - but the day is still young.
2014-08-26T14:32:20Z eudoxia: Adlai: there was a project to add an LLVM backend to SBCL but it died in 2010
2014-08-26T14:33:01Z Adlai: Xach: are you referring to me? my stupidity is usually sincere.
2014-08-26T14:33:21Z drmeister: Even if you added an LLVM backend to SBCL it wouldn't interoperate with C++.  Non-local exits screw up C++ exception handling and RAII.
2014-08-26T14:33:30Z brucem: eudoxia: you're eudox on HN?
2014-08-26T14:33:34Z drmeister: Little known fact.
2014-08-26T14:33:44Z eudoxia: brucem: yes
2014-08-26T14:33:46Z Xach: Adlai: no, pjb's game.
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2014-08-26T14:34:33Z drmeister: Adlai: Yes, it's the first (almost) full CL on LLVM.   There is some work to do to make it ANSI compliant.
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2014-08-26T14:34:53Z pjb: Xach: haven't you already blogged about Clasp?
2014-08-26T14:35:03Z drmeister: And it needs a better compiler front end that does more language specific optimizations.
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2014-08-26T14:36:18Z Adlai goes back to his own wheel-reinvention games
2014-08-26T14:36:24Z drmeister: But that will be a lot of fun to write because we can write it in Common Lisp and all of the infrastructure to generate LLVM-IR is in place and the garbage collector is in place.  It's going to be great.
2014-08-26T14:38:08Z drmeister: I want to structure the next compiler like Clang is structured - as a library that enables the development of static analysis tools for Common Lisp.
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2014-08-26T14:38:22Z Adlai: so is there a chance that the IP office could tell you that they own the rights, since it was written as a university project?
2014-08-26T14:38:47Z Adlai: or is this just waiting for a rubber stamp to come down
2014-08-26T14:39:00Z wasamasa: drmeister: will you add HM type inference next?
2014-08-26T14:39:23Z Bike: why HM specifically
2014-08-26T14:39:27Z drmeister: Adlai: I don't think they will do that.  It's "tainted" with code from ECL (about 25%) and I keep telling them that there is no hope of making money off of yet another Common Lisp implementation.
2014-08-26T14:39:39Z splittist: Adai: who can tell what these crazy lawyers will do?
2014-08-26T14:39:40Z wasamasa: Bike: just kidding
2014-08-26T14:39:56Z wasamasa: Bike: but still, why's there typed racket and typed clojure, but no typed lisp?
2014-08-26T14:40:08Z Bike: lisp has types
2014-08-26T14:40:12Z Adlai: dunno about you but i type all my lisp programs
2014-08-26T14:40:13Z Bike: would be the main thing, probably
2014-08-26T14:40:17Z drmeister: wasamasa: I've missed the whole HM/functional bandwagon.  I've been busy with other things.  Is there any good reason to do that?
2014-08-26T14:40:26Z wasamasa: drmeister: no, not really
2014-08-26T14:40:46Z Bike: HM wouldn't work for lisp's type system very well, i don't think
2014-08-26T14:40:52Z dlowe: It's nice to have enforcement of assertions during compilation.
2014-08-26T14:40:53Z wasamasa: drmeister: I suspect "contracts" would add nearly all benefits I'd need
2014-08-26T14:41:28Z eudoxia: CL does however have gradual typing (Before it was called that), so a type inference engine for a gradually-typed language would work
2014-08-26T14:41:33Z eudoxia: which is what SBCL does basically
2014-08-26T14:41:48Z eudoxia: https://github.com/tomprimozic/type-systems/tree/master/gradual_typing
2014-08-26T14:42:30Z wasamasa: eudoxia: oh nice
2014-08-26T14:42:50Z wasamasa: eudoxia: so sbcl has extra notation its compiler can process?
2014-08-26T14:42:59Z drmeister: eudoxia: I want to learn about that and steal whatever ideas are useful.  I like the strong typed nature of C++, I lean on the C++ compiler a lot to find bugs for me when I refactor.
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2014-08-26T14:43:39Z eudoxia: wasamasa: type annotations are part of the CL standard
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2014-08-26T14:44:31Z eudoxia: drmeister: yeah, type inference can be very useful even in a dynamic language. i know i use it to find potential bugs in my CL code.
2014-08-26T14:44:32Z drmeister: I don't use the CL type annotations at this point.  My current CL compiler takes S-expressions straight to LLVM-IR.  The next compiler will take the best ideas out there.
2014-08-26T14:44:58Z Bike: well, you could probably start just with using them as assertions and warning on their failure
2014-08-26T14:45:43Z Bike: probably easier to implement than representation selection/all those other things people like that are really hard
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2014-08-26T14:45:53Z drmeister: Bike: I'd like also to use that idea you mentioned of having compiler-macros (or something like them) that use this type information.  Do you have a link for that thing you wrote on that?
2014-08-26T14:46:02Z Dicoletian: I need to deliver a message to Dr Scheme. Where can I find him?
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2014-08-26T14:46:15Z Bike: https://github.com/Bike/compiler-macro i guess, but it sucks
2014-08-26T14:46:30Z Bike: i guess you could start by implementing the cltl2 environment introspection stuff
2014-08-26T14:46:55Z Bike: Do you at least record annotations right now, even if you don't use them? If not I guess making that available to user code would be a pretty easy start.
2014-08-26T14:47:48Z wasamasa: hmm, while searching for documentation on type annotations I've found this: http://quickdocs.org/
2014-08-26T14:47:55Z drmeister: Bike: My gut says it's a useful idea but I haven't thought it through yet.
2014-08-26T14:47:58Z Xach: quickdocs.org is good.
2014-08-26T14:48:05Z wasamasa: mhh
2014-08-26T14:48:09Z pjb: Dicoletian: you're lucky, Dr Scheme is one of the few doctors who have an url!
2014-08-26T14:48:10Z wasamasa: Xach: figured you'd say that :P
2014-08-26T14:48:25Z pjb: Dicoletian: http://plt-scheme.org/software/drscheme
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2014-08-26T14:48:55Z Xach: wasamasa: Why?
2014-08-26T14:49:00Z Bike: drmeister: the main problem is that post-lexical information can't exist, e.g. if you have (progn (foo (the integer bar)) (baz bar)) the compiler macro on baz isn't going to know that bar is an integer
2014-08-26T14:49:07Z wasamasa: Xach: well, it's using quicklisp
2014-08-26T14:49:08Z eudoxia: wasamasa: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/d_type.htm
2014-08-26T14:49:11Z drmeister: Bike: Yes, I record the annotations.
2014-08-26T14:49:15Z eudoxia: wasamasa: meant declaration, not annotation
2014-08-26T14:49:16Z Dicoletian: Does he have a pager?
2014-08-26T14:49:33Z Xach: wasamasa: I'd like it anyway, I think.
2014-08-26T14:49:33Z pjb: Nope, just an url.
2014-08-26T14:49:36Z wasamasa: eudoxia: I see, thanks
2014-08-26T14:49:58Z pjb: Download it and tell him whatever you need to tell him.
2014-08-26T14:50:02Z wasamasa: eudoxia: I've seen them here and there in elisp, but they just use it to have correct indentation settings
2014-08-26T14:50:08Z kristof: drmeister: the main problem with hindley milner type inference is that it's a mess for subtyping, and even turns some inference problems into np hard ones.
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2014-08-26T14:50:47Z Bike: it just annoys me that lisp is The Language For Metaprogramming and then compilers are still huge ridiculous black boxes, i suppose
2014-08-26T14:50:49Z kristof: drmeister: For instance, Scala allows for manual variance annotations. Variance annotations! What a mess.
2014-08-26T14:50:56Z Bike: Variance?
2014-08-26T14:51:15Z kristof: Bike: how one type changes with regard to its component types
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2014-08-26T14:52:07Z eudoxia: i'm pretty sure the Scala compiler just spawns baby universes, waits for them to evolve intelligent life and compute the type inference, and returns that result
2014-08-26T14:52:21Z kristof: A function which takes an array of floats cannot necessarily take an array of ints (if it's a destructive function), so we say that mutable arrays are contravariant
2014-08-26T14:52:27Z Bike: yeah i have no idea what that means. programming sure is exciting!
2014-08-26T14:52:58Z kristof: eudoxia: good thing hotspot does metatracing
2014-08-26T14:53:37Z drmeister: Well, I haven't thought Common Lisp language level optimization through yet.  I'm sure someone has, maybe beach has?
2014-08-26T14:53:59Z Bike: beach and most implementors
2014-08-26T14:54:07Z kristof: drmeister: did you read beach's paper on optimizing generic function dispatch? It's good.
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2014-08-26T14:54:50Z Bike: i'd guess that as a starting point you should skip inference and just use what annotations the user puts in, and then add inference later
2014-08-26T14:54:54Z pjb: -
2014-08-26T14:54:58Z Bike: elide out of bounds checks if there are proper decls, maybe
2014-08-26T14:54:58Z kristof: drmeister: Same with his paper on sliding garbage collectors. You can bless his ideas and be the first one to implement them since SICL isn't really usable yet :)
2014-08-26T14:55:20Z drmeister: kristof: Yes.
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2014-08-26T14:55:41Z Bike: oh, or you know what would be obvious, is replacing generic arithmetic with the typed stuff.
2014-08-26T14:56:08Z drmeister: I'm gonna stick with MPS for now wrt garbage collection.  I only have a few neurons to spare.
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2014-08-26T14:57:17Z Bike: time to implement your own pool class!!
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2014-08-26T14:58:58Z ee_cc_: hiall… dumb question, where can I find a n00b guide at creating an sbcl based project? Source code layout, project definition files (like project.clj or pom.xml)
2014-08-26T14:59:08Z wasamasa: lisp isn't java
2014-08-26T14:59:29Z wasamasa: common lisp isn't clojure either
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2014-08-26T14:59:40Z H4ns: ee_cc_: you may want to look at quickproject http://www.xach.com/lisp/quickproject/
2014-08-26T14:59:48Z Xach: ee_cc_: I don't think there are many good guides available, unfortunately.
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2014-08-26T15:00:07Z inklesspen: I used quickproject
2014-08-26T15:00:18Z patrickwonders: I was going to point to quickproject, too.
2014-08-26T15:00:20Z Xach: http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html is something I wrote, but I know there are a few others. Don't have links handy, unfortunately.
2014-08-26T15:00:33Z Xach: That link of mine is also outdated, I use quickproject too.
2014-08-26T15:00:38Z inklesspen: here is my lisp project made using quickproject: https://github.com/inklesspen/alea
2014-08-26T15:00:40Z drmeister: I've got to run.  I teach my first lecture of the semester in 1.5 hours. Organic II, Aromaticity and benzene. I've got to locate my other brain and dust it off.
2014-08-26T15:00:49Z inklesspen: you'll see there's an alea.asd and a package.lisp
2014-08-26T15:00:52Z ee_cc_: ah nice, thanks
2014-08-26T15:00:55Z kristof: There's an entire class on benzene?
2014-08-26T15:00:58Z Xach: wasamasa: lisp is not java or clojure, but it is pretty common to write a system definition to start things off.
2014-08-26T15:01:19Z wasamasa: Xach: well, I wanted to point out you're not required to rely on tooling to do that for you
2014-08-26T15:01:26Z drmeister: Benzene is a very special molecule.
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2014-08-26T15:01:54Z kristof: Ring structures and all that. Right.
2014-08-26T15:02:06Z wasamasa: Xach: like, avoiding putting dashes in your directories, creating xml files and nesting directories deeply
2014-08-26T15:02:52Z kristof: wasamasa: I would avoid using hashes at the beginning of directory names
2014-08-26T15:03:17Z kristof: Or maybe not. I don't know, I haven't thought about it too hard.
2014-08-26T15:03:20Z wasamasa: kristof: hmm, now I know what artist name I'd choose if I were to produce music
2014-08-26T15:03:24Z wasamasa: kristof: -rf
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2014-08-26T15:03:54Z kristof: wasamasa: suffix rm with -- and you're good to go.
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2014-08-26T15:04:04Z wasamasa: kristof: sure, but it's not something universal
2014-08-26T15:04:09Z kristof: K
2014-08-26T15:04:11Z Xach: wasamasa: "lisp isn't java" does not convey that information very effectively.
2014-08-26T15:04:18Z wasamasa: Xach: my bad, yes
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2014-08-26T15:04:54Z drmeister: kristof: Yes, but more than that. It's a molecule where the spooky aspects of quantum mechanics and symmetry surface and display profoundly unexpected chemical stability.
2014-08-26T15:05:05Z drmeister : Good, good! Let the chemistry flow through you!
2014-08-26T15:05:09Z kristof: Speaking of gradual typing, I was reading Facebook's post which claimed that hacklang was the first language to bring optionally typed programming to an industrial strength language/platform. I giggled.
2014-08-26T15:05:16Z Xach: There's another project skeleton project, but I can't remember the name. It is from one of the Japanese hackers.
2014-08-26T15:05:46Z Bike: is it actually called 'hacklang'
2014-08-26T15:05:56Z wasamasa: Bike: it's actually called "Hack"
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2014-08-26T15:07:43Z kristof: drmeister: spooky indeed. I was always curious how scientists generated molecular orbital theory models.
2014-08-26T15:08:10Z kristof: Bike: wasamasa is correct, I am mistaken.
2014-08-26T15:08:36Z Xach: following the Go tradition of searchable language names
2014-08-26T15:08:42Z Bike: oh, when drmeister comes back he might find https://twitter.com/mnxmnkmnd/status/502874567941959681/photo/1 a bit funny
2014-08-26T15:08:53Z Bike: probably everybody will just find it with "facebook programming language".
2014-08-26T15:08:58Z wasamasa: Bike: it's just that people add "lang" to make clear they're refering to the programming language if it's not easy to look up on search engines
2014-08-26T15:09:04Z Bike: sure, sure.
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2014-08-26T15:09:22Z kristof: Bike: is that yours?
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2014-08-26T15:09:34Z wasamasa: so, what contenders do we have, go, rust and hack?
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2014-08-26T15:09:37Z Bike: no, i didn't buy it.
2014-08-26T15:10:02Z Bike: after all, a glorious world of lisp bis-peptides awaits us
2014-08-26T15:10:03Z kristof: Luckily Google knows me well enough to give me the languages before any other result
2014-08-26T15:14:04Z drmeister: Bike: I'm not surprised.  Learning quantum mechanics to understand chemistry is like becoming a Bishop to meet girls.
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2014-08-26T15:15:21Z drmeister thinks that joke was funnier before the recent church scandals and more apropos 10 years ago before computers/methods became powerful enough to run QM calculations on useful sized molecules.
2014-08-26T15:18:04Z drmeister: And yes, a glorious world of software that makes molecules that make molecules awaits us.  All that stands between us and that future are a couple of intellectual property lawyers.  How fitting.
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2014-08-26T15:24:53Z drmeister is only kidding, they are probably very nice people.
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2014-08-26T15:48:01Z slyrus: drmeister: have you ever looked at my chemicl library?
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2014-08-26T15:57:46Z AeroNotix: with cffi can I have it automatically coerce types between lisp types and native types?
2014-08-26T15:58:03Z AeroNotix: so, lets say I want to register something that converts betwee a char* and a pathname?
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2014-08-26T15:59:25Z ee_cc: yeah
2014-08-26T15:59:41Z AeroNotix: ee_cc: awesome, cool
2014-08-26T15:59:58Z ee_cc: meh, not so quick...
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2014-08-26T16:07:56Z nicdev: Xach: if i wanted to use gpg to verify quicklisp, where do i find your public key?
2014-08-26T16:08:57Z ee_cc: http://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp.asc
2014-08-26T16:08:58Z ee_cc: http://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp.asc
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2014-08-26T16:09:28Z Xach: nicdev: it is in some public keyservers
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2014-08-26T16:09:56Z Xach: releases@quicklisp.org is the email
2014-08-26T16:10:06Z drmeister: slyrus: I'm not sure, where would I find it?
2014-08-26T16:10:30Z Xach: http://beta.quicklisp.org/release-key.txt is the key also
2014-08-26T16:10:47Z Xach: nicdev: if you find problems with the process, please let me know. i don't think anyone has used it yet and i suspect i am not doing it right all the way through.
2014-08-26T16:10:51Z AeroNotix: ee_cc: http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Foreign-Type-Translators.html#Foreign-Type-Translators found it
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2014-08-26T16:15:28Z slyrus: drmeister: https://github.com/slyrus/chemicl
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2014-08-26T16:22:35Z nicdev: Xach: on the site, you have to download instruction and I think the second should be "curl -O http://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp.asc" instead of "curl -O http://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp".
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2014-08-26T16:24:05Z nicdev: Xach: I also needed the key to complete the process so pointing out the link above on quicklisp or a public server where it can be obtained would be nice!
2014-08-26T16:24:45Z Xach: nicdev: thanks, will make those updates
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2014-08-26T16:29:04Z tokenrove: hmm, i thought i remember this working (and gpg automatically pulling down the right key) but it looks like the corresponding key is not on wwwkeys.pgp.net, at least
2014-08-26T16:29:15Z tokenrove: two other Xach keys are present
2014-08-26T16:30:57Z tokenrove: sorry, i spoke too soon; the keyserver was just timing out, and my manual search for the fingerprint wasn't correct.
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2014-08-26T16:32:44Z Xach: is it really there?
2014-08-26T16:34:15Z tokenrove: "gpg --verify quicklisp.lisp.asc" fetched the key (eventually) and verified the signature as good; i made sure i didn't have the key already.
2014-08-26T16:34:52Z Xach: ok
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2014-08-26T16:35:32Z tokenrove: (and i made sure that modifying quicklisp.lisp caused the same command to verify the signature as bad in case i was doing something stupid)
2014-08-26T16:35:45Z Xach: thanks for trying it.
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2014-08-26T16:36:42Z Xach: I wanted to have an attached signature, thinking that would be easier and still feel safe, but it turns out verification can just apply to some subset of the file. you could have all kinds of evil junk before or after the signed part.
2014-08-26T16:38:13Z tokenrove: i remember making a horrible mistake a few years ago where i inadvertently publically accused juliusz chroboczek of not properly signing his packages because i had previously ignored or skipped something while asdf-install'ing some time before.
2014-08-26T16:38:31Z tokenrove: so i'm a bit cautious about this now.
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2014-08-26T17:19:29Z Xach: Shinmera: I took a look at http://blog.tymoon.eu/api/reader/atom?tag=common%20lisp just now. It seems that everything is truncated. Would you consider putting the full post in the feed?
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2014-08-26T17:20:24Z akkad: can quicklisp or other modern CL software run ok on VLM?
2014-08-26T17:20:35Z Xach: Not exactly truncated, but summarized and linked rather than full content.
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2014-08-26T17:21:27Z Shinmera: Xach: Sure, I can do that, hold on.
2014-08-26T17:22:55Z H4ns: akkad: some of it can, but nothing network related will.
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2014-08-26T17:25:20Z Shinmera: Xach: Should be done. Can you confirm that it looks alright?
2014-08-26T17:25:38Z Shinmera: It might get a bit wild with the code examples, not sure.
2014-08-26T17:27:07Z shka: tokenrove: it is not that easy to find the information about the smalltalk development
2014-08-26T17:29:25Z akkad: h4ns check your email from github
2014-08-26T17:30:30Z H4ns: akkad: i check all my email all the time.  nothing new from github in there right now.
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2014-08-26T17:32:47Z Xach: Shinmera: looks alright. i added it to planet lisp. thanks!
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2014-08-26T17:38:28Z Shinmera: Thank you for adding it! :)
2014-08-26T17:39:54Z Shinmera: Xach: I'm just noticing that images on planet.lisp.org are not constrained to the same width as the text paragraphs are
2014-08-26T17:40:01Z tokenrove: shka: indeed.  you might want to specifically check out monticello in squeak, for "language-aware version control" ideas.
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2014-08-26T17:41:04Z Xach: Shinmera: that's true.
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2014-08-26T17:49:15Z shka: tokenrove: monticello, squeak
2014-08-26T17:49:19Z shka: i will note this
2014-08-26T17:51:25Z shka: heh, exploring smalltalk feels like tasting a forbidden knowledge
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2014-08-26T17:52:07Z shka: anyway
2014-08-26T17:52:20Z shka: how to check for the equality of the clos objects?
2014-08-26T17:52:33Z Shinmera: Write your own comparator
2014-08-26T17:53:04Z shka: i would do this, but in fact i want to just know if it is the same instance
2014-08-26T17:53:09Z Shinmera: eq
2014-08-26T17:53:11Z shka: i should be more specific
2014-08-26T17:53:17Z shka: hmmmm
2014-08-26T17:53:18Z shka: ok
2014-08-26T17:53:35Z shka: Shinmera: thanks
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2014-08-26T18:11:45Z jackdaniel: is there nuclblog git repository in Cyrus Harmon somewhere? Link seems dead, but github says https://github.com/slyrus/nuclblog
2014-08-26T18:12:36Z Xach: That is the best place to get nuclblog
2014-08-26T18:12:44Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2014-08-26T18:30:13Z pjb: shka: see http://cdr.eurolisp.org/document/8/cleqcmp.html and http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html
2014-08-26T18:34:42Z shka: pjb: thanks, reading right now
2014-08-26T18:36:08Z shka: pjb: i actually did not know about the 'compare
2014-08-26T18:36:14Z shka: it is interesting!
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2014-08-26T18:37:17Z pjb: shka: CDR are written by lispers to "standardize" new features.  There hasn't been any effort so far to implement them in the various implementations.  Some CDRs are implemented by libraries.
2014-08-26T18:37:34Z pjb: shka: therefore, take it more like a specifications of what you will have to write, than as something you can use.
2014-08-26T18:37:58Z shka: pjb: that's not a problem
2014-08-26T18:38:16Z shka: and actually compare is excelent approach
2014-08-26T18:38:37Z shka: sadly i would not invent it by myself since my brain is polluted with C++
2014-08-26T18:39:55Z shka: returning symbol is sucha a good idea
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2014-08-26T19:49:36Z mood: Shinmera: Cloudflare's email protection seems to be screwing up your IRC logs because of the email address Xach posted a while back: http://log.irc.tymoon.eu/freenode/lisp
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2014-08-26T19:50:55Z Shinmera: mood: Indeed it seems so
2014-08-26T19:51:10Z Shinmera: mood: I'll switch the content type to text/html instead of xhtml I suppose.
2014-08-26T19:51:16Z Shinmera: mood: Thanks for the catch!
2014-08-26T19:52:15Z mood: Shinmera: np. I was just checking it out. I like what you're building!
2014-08-26T19:54:26Z Shinmera: There we go, fixed.
2014-08-26T19:54:45Z Shinmera: Hooking into a live lisp and recompiling things still amazes me every time I get to do it.
2014-08-26T19:59:12Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: it's funny because the Erlang people rave that this is one of the killer features of Erlang. Except it's not even close in terms of what a proper Lisp REPL can do.
2014-08-26T20:00:01Z Shinmera: AeroNotix: I constantly seem to rewatch Erlang The Movie 2.
2014-08-26T20:00:33Z |3b| suspects lisp isn't even close to what erlang can do in some of the contexts erlang people rave about it
2014-08-26T20:00:55Z AeroNotix: |3b|: sure, the scheduling is amazing.
2014-08-26T20:01:21Z Shinmera: mood: btw you can choose which types of messages to display in the logs with the types get parameter. (f.e. only messages would be http://log.irc.tymoon.eu/freenode/lisp?types=m )
2014-08-26T20:01:31Z Shinmera: mood: I still have to add UI elements for that though
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2014-08-26T20:02:22Z mood: Shinmera: I saw that in a link you posted yesterday. nice
2014-08-26T20:02:47Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: are you going to add search?
2014-08-26T20:03:12Z Shinmera: AeroNotix: I don't know, simply loading pages is already quite slow right now and search might kill it. I'll have to think on it.
2014-08-26T20:03:54Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: why is loading pages slow?
2014-08-26T20:04:27Z Shinmera: AeroNotix: Well querying the database is slow is my guess
2014-08-26T20:05:16Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: seems reasonably fast
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2014-08-26T20:05:34Z Shinmera: It's much better now that I've cleaned it up and added proper indexes.
2014-08-26T20:05:47Z AeroNotix: Which database?
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2014-08-26T20:06:04Z Shinmera: Anyway, the table contains over half a million rows, so I wouldn't be too surprised if search would take some time
2014-08-26T20:06:09Z Shinmera: My own
2014-08-26T20:06:15Z Shinmera:  Colleen logs to it
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2014-08-26T20:06:31Z AeroNotix: Your own database?
2014-08-26T20:06:36Z AeroNotix: as in your own database implementation?
2014-08-26T20:06:40Z mood: Shinmera: Postgres right?
2014-08-26T20:06:41Z Shinmera: no, no
2014-08-26T20:06:44Z Shinmera: yes
2014-08-26T20:06:47Z AeroNotix: oh ok
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2014-08-26T20:06:57Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: postgres has full text search
2014-08-26T20:07:12Z Shinmera: Well I know that it does, I'm just worrying that it might get hammered or take long
2014-08-26T20:07:12Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: do you store a row per comment?
2014-08-26T20:07:20Z Shinmera: one row per event, yes
2014-08-26T20:07:25Z AeroNotix: hmm
2014-08-26T20:08:38Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: caching would help, but I'm sure you know this
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2014-08-26T20:09:00Z Shinmera: Well it's hard to cache when the point of the frontend is to allow arbitrary date regions and such.
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2014-08-26T20:09:30Z Shinmera: But on the other hand I'm also most likely just being paranoid about it all.
2014-08-26T20:10:06Z AeroNotix: it's relatively fast as it is, you could look into a proper full text search database if you really wanted
2014-08-26T20:10:12Z AeroNotix: Lucene/ElasticSearch etc
2014-08-26T20:10:56Z Shinmera: If anything I might add keyword search within the last week or something like that.
2014-08-26T20:11:14Z Shinmera: But, will see. Got other things on my stove right now.
2014-08-26T20:11:37Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: I've got a half built one of these thingies
2014-08-26T20:11:57Z Shinmera: What thingies?
2014-08-26T20:12:01Z AeroNotix: I used django, with haystack backed by elasticsearch. I didn't provide a "browse a page at a time" though
2014-08-26T20:12:06Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: IRC log browser
2014-08-26T20:12:12Z Shinmera: ah
2014-08-26T20:12:36Z Shinmera: Well I mostly use it to read up on what happened over night, or to link to specific messages, so that's what I geared it towards.
2014-08-26T20:12:45Z AeroNotix: Shinmera: gotcha
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2014-08-26T20:17:01Z redline6561: there is also https://github.com/skypher/montezuma << Shinmera
2014-08-26T20:19:50Z Shinmera: redline6561: I'm not sure if that would be faster than performing the search directly on the database.
2014-08-26T20:20:27Z Shinmera: unless there's a bridge somewhere
2014-08-26T20:22:23Z redline6561: I'm not either. Just saying it's an option.
2014-08-26T20:24:10Z AeroNotix: redline6561: ah right yeah I was looking into montezuma. Did you using?
2014-08-26T20:24:16Z AeroNotix: Did you use it**
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2014-08-26T20:26:21Z redline6561: I haven't used it yet.
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2014-08-26T20:28:42Z pnpuff: Me neither.
2014-08-26T20:29:02Z AeroNotix: It's not hard to be better than ElasticSearch
2014-08-26T20:29:33Z pnpuff: it depends from what "hard" means.
2014-08-26T20:31:52Z AeroNotix: pnpuff: "Not lose data arbirarily.@
2014-08-26T20:31:55Z AeroNotix: "
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2014-08-26T20:32:07Z AeroNotix: pnpuff: that'd be probably the first thing I did to be better than Elasticsearch
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2014-08-26T20:58:33Z Xach: https://github.com/orthecreedence/simple-search -- inmemory
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2014-08-26T21:11:43Z mood: Is there anything pandoc-like in CL? (Pandoc converts between loads of document formats (markdown, html, reST, etc) by converting from/to an IR. This means instead of writing a converter from Markdown to HTML, you need one parser whose output could then be used by different writers.)
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2014-08-26T21:15:42Z |3b|: 3bmd could be that, but isn't yet :/
2014-08-26T21:16:14Z |3b| would like to clean up the parse tree for that sort of thing, but doesn't have time
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2014-08-26T21:16:38Z |3b|: not sure it would be generic enough for arbitrary formats though even if cleaned up
2014-08-26T21:17:31Z mood: |3b|: This is the documentation for Pandoc's IR-like-thingy: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/pandoc-types-1.12/docs/Text-Pandoc-Definition.html
2014-08-26T21:18:01Z mood: So if it's a bit like that, it's probably okay
2014-08-26T21:18:43Z |3b|: currently it is just whatever ended up coming out of the parser, so pretty much random things corresponding to markdown syntax
2014-08-26T21:19:57Z |3b|: though that looks like it has some similar things (in nicer form)
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2014-08-26T21:26:45Z |3b| adds that link to the "clean up the IR" bug in 3bmd
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2014-08-26T21:39:55Z jasom: |3b|: IIRC pandoc was originally based off of markdown as well.  It extends markdown somewhat, but otherwise is limited to that extended markdown for what it can internally represent.
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2014-08-26T21:41:49Z jasom: More details here: http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/README.html#pandocs-markdown
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2014-08-26T21:53:34Z bhyde: Is there a recommended way to get (ql:quickload ...) to be entirely silent (when things are going well?)
2014-08-26T21:53:58Z pjb: Yes.
2014-08-26T21:54:06Z didi: Is this a sane idiom? I have a function which can be optimized to a look up table, but I don't want to add the computation function nor the table to the global environment, so I have: (labels ((compute-element (i) ...)) (let ((table (make-array ...))) (defun fn (i) (svref table i)))). i.e., I have a `defun' inside a `let' inside a `labels'.
2014-08-26T21:54:40Z Bike: it's kind of weird, and having a non-toplevel defun has slightly odd semantics in compile-file
2014-08-26T21:54:47Z stanislav: completely insane imho
2014-08-26T21:54:58Z pjb: bhyde: see: http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=viewblob&p=public/bin&h=93d02d06e15ccf4883eb0ec54f3e62ab3cfe1258&hb=e92949ca1edec1c7eb372ce08dbac07ddc404e34&f=script.lisp
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2014-08-26T21:55:20Z didi: Oh, OK. Thank you. I will change it then.
2014-08-26T21:55:22Z stanislav: didi: if you want memoising, you can do it fairly simply
2014-08-26T21:55:25Z pjb: bhyde: the without-output macro.
2014-08-26T21:55:41Z pjb: (it still writes the output to stderr if an error occurs).
2014-08-26T21:55:52Z didi: stanislav: It's a really small table. 256 elements. I thought this would be simpler.
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2014-08-26T21:56:04Z stanislav: there are fine examples of memoising in "on lisp", including a memoisation macro
2014-08-26T21:56:12Z Bike: i mean, it's perfectly legal
2014-08-26T21:56:26Z Bike: and you're pretty much going to be doing it for any memoization. either that or a redefinition.
2014-08-26T21:56:52Z bhyde: pjb: i have something like that, sad though
2014-08-26T21:57:46Z bhyde: pjb: thanks for helping though :)
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2014-08-26T21:59:13Z jasom: didi: I prefer unexported symbols for that
2014-08-26T21:59:46Z jasom: didi: it makes debugging easier, and there are some minor advantages to having DEFUNs as top-level forms
2014-08-26T22:00:02Z pjb: Indeed, since you can use interned symbols while debugging.
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2014-08-26T22:00:23Z pjb: You can also use symbol properties on the name of the function.
2014-08-26T22:03:13Z stanislav: OMG, I've just had an insight
2014-08-26T22:03:17Z stanislav: a revelation
2014-08-26T22:03:51Z stanislav: when asked to :overwrite existing file, SBCL literally writes new content over existing one
2014-08-26T22:04:16Z tokenrove: jasom: what are the advantages of having defuns as top-level forms?
2014-08-26T22:04:43Z stanislav: keeping the portion of existing content which follows the new one
2014-08-26T22:04:46Z Bike: compile-file can do some optimizations, like not having other functions have to call indirect if they're in the same file
2014-08-26T22:04:51Z oGMo: stanislav: perhaps you mean :supersede
2014-08-26T22:05:05Z Bike: or possibly analyzing it for type stuff, and using that information elsewhere in calls to that function
2014-08-26T22:05:22Z stanislav: oGMo: thanks, I'll to try
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2014-08-26T22:06:24Z Bike: or, say, it's likely that with a function as simple as didi's, just an svref call, you'd want to inline that, but you'd need to have the inline declaration at top level for it to be seen by the compiler early enough for other functions in the same file to inline it
2014-08-26T22:06:34Z Bike: maybe not since it's a closure actually, hrm.
2014-08-26T22:06:47Z tokenrove: i'm surprised that (let (...) (defun ...)) does not share those properties.  thanks.
2014-08-26T22:07:11Z Bike: it's because let can involve arbitrary computation, ya see.
2014-08-26T22:07:31Z stanislav: oGMo: it works!!!! thanks a lot. I thought I was driving mad. :D
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2014-08-26T22:09:34Z oGMo: stanislav: np, but you should probably read about OPEN carefully
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2014-08-26T22:13:37Z tokenrove: bike: what about under eval-when :compile-toplevel?
2014-08-26T22:14:15Z Bike: well, then you're telling the compiler to do that computation as well.
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2014-08-26T22:15:23Z jasom: tokenrove: the spec just puts extra limitations on toplevel DEFUNs; it's a pragmatic choice versus a more complicated rule.
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2014-08-26T22:17:17Z tokenrove: i see.  i am rereading clhs 3.2.3.
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2014-08-26T22:43:59Z didi: Hum. `defvar' also has special properties when used at top-level. Oh well.
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2014-08-26T22:50:54Z AeroNotix: does anyone have an application written in lisp that they have a PKGBUILD (archlinux) for that I could look at?
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2014-08-26T22:52:43Z Bike: regular arch repos have maxima, but i doubt maxima's build process is standard.
2014-08-26T22:52:56Z AeroNotix: Bike: I just need something that puts a binary on the $PATH
2014-08-26T22:53:23Z AeroNotix: Bike: for some reason mine copies the binary into the path but when I run it, it just opens SBCL. The same binary outside of the PKGBUILD works fine
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2014-08-26T22:55:51Z Bike: copies the implementation binary?
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2014-08-26T22:56:02Z Bike: nevermind.
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2014-08-27T00:11:46Z gendl: Fare: do you know anything about posting of videos from ILC?
2014-08-27T00:12:27Z Xach: I would have expected you to have inside info on the topic!
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2014-08-27T00:13:10Z gendl: Xach: I think it was Faré’s camera, so as far as I know he has the content.
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2014-08-27T00:13:16Z gendl: But maybe Marc Feeley does.
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2014-08-27T00:32:54Z rus: lispers! do you know any way to deliver CL code as DLL?
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2014-08-27T00:33:42Z jasom: rus: ecl will let you do that at least on linux (not sure about windows)
2014-08-27T00:33:58Z gendl: rus: I know Allegro CL can do it. I’m not sure about others.
2014-08-27T00:34:46Z rus: jasom: thanks, I will have a look
2014-08-27T00:35:25Z rus: gendl: I am looking at free options for this quite small project.
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2014-08-27T01:01:32Z Xach: gendl: So if the video files are procured by someone suitably official they will go online?
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2014-08-27T01:01:51Z gendl: as far as I know, yes.
2014-08-27T01:02:04Z gendl: It was blatantly obvious to everyone giving a talk that they were being recorded.
2014-08-27T01:02:36Z gendl: unless i’m instructed differently my assumption is everything should simply go up on YouTube
2014-08-27T01:02:53Z gendl: if any of the presenters have a problem they can request a take-down (I really doubt any of them will).
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2014-08-27T01:04:06Z Xach: I thought the roadblock was more ACM-related
2014-08-27T01:04:25Z Xach: I am all for putting them up first and apologizing later if needed, I just got the impression that red tape abounded
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2014-08-27T01:05:36Z gendl: ACM has to do with the papers.
2014-08-27T01:05:48Z gendl: i’m not sure how deeply they have their tentacles into the presentations.
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2014-08-27T01:06:07Z gendl: the presentations are just a talk and some slides. They don’t come close to duplicating the actual content in the published papers.
2014-08-27T01:06:37Z gendl: anyway I’ll follow up with Marc Feeley. I think he’s the guy.
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2014-08-27T01:08:23Z gendl: i just got back home from traveling through Quebec after ILC otherwise would have done it sooner...
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2014-08-27T01:08:52Z gendl: fun trip but it was a bit frustrating going on a vacation right after being fired up to do lots of Lisp coming out of ILC!
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2014-08-27T01:29:25Z rus: sorry.. kids...
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2014-08-27T02:46:20Z byte48: hi good night, i am see and read very  articles about configuration emacs for programming with Common Lisp, but they have any suggestions to configure my emacs? a link, please. regards
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2014-08-27T02:57:15Z bhyde`: gendl: am i to understand that they laid you off and then asked that you go to ilc and pitch how cool their OS offering is?
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2014-08-27T02:58:12Z gendl: bhyde: what on earth are you talking about?
2014-08-27T02:58:24Z gendl: oh wait, that’s:
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2014-08-27T02:58:35Z gendl: bhyde’: what on earth are you talking about?
2014-08-27T02:58:46Z bhyde`: :)
2014-08-27T02:58:52Z gendl: is that some kind of nonsense bot?
2014-08-27T02:58:55Z bhyde`: didn't you give a talk at ILC
2014-08-27T02:59:23Z gendl: Yes. yes, i did. (a tutorial, actually). Who is this “they” you speak of?
2014-08-27T02:59:41Z bhyde`: and didn't you say that you'd jut been laid off?
2014-08-27T02:59:52Z gendl: I most certainly did not.
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2014-08-27T03:00:18Z gendl: where did you ever get that idea?
2014-08-27T03:00:50Z gendl: and what OS offering are you talking about?
2014-08-27T03:00:53Z bhyde`: "fun trip but it was a bit frustrating going on a vacation right after
2014-08-27T03:00:53Z bhyde`:         being fired up to do lots of Lisp coming out of ILC!"
2014-08-27T03:01:15Z gendl: where does that say anything about being laid off?
2014-08-27T03:01:19Z gendl: are you feeling ok?
2014-08-27T03:01:20Z pillton: "fired up" as in excited.
2014-08-27T03:01:36Z bhyde`: ah, i see, i thought it said "fired, up to do" not "fired up to do"
2014-08-27T03:01:44Z bhyde`: my mistake, sorry about that
2014-08-27T03:01:54Z gendl: sorry for sloppy english (I guess).
2014-08-27T03:02:04Z bhyde`: no no, entirely my mistake
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2014-08-27T03:02:37Z gendl: My family and I drove from Detroit up to Montreal for ILC and since we had come so far already,
2014-08-27T03:02:59Z gendl: we (read: she) decided that we’d piggyback a little vacation off the back of ILC
2014-08-27T03:03:03Z bhyde`: the English was fine, the reader is an idiot - i'll punish him
2014-08-27T03:03:04Z gendl: which was awesome
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2014-08-27T03:03:37Z gendl: but also a bit frustrating because I was also very enthused to get back to work
2014-08-27T03:03:40Z bhyde`: sorry i missed your talk, got there late on friday
2014-08-27T03:04:08Z gendl: and my tutorial wasn’t about an OS offering (although I’ll take that as a compliment!)
2014-08-27T03:05:46Z gendl: For anyone who’s interested, the salient points from the tutorial are available at http://gendl.org
2014-08-27T03:06:00Z gendl: software downloads and “resources”
2014-08-27T03:06:17Z gendl: with plans to expand this gendl.org site quite a lot over the coming months
2014-08-27T03:06:53Z gendl: there are two videos in the Resources section which comprised the meat of my tutorial
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2014-08-27T03:07:27Z bhyde`: i thought you presented on  https://github.com/genworks/gendl which is AGPL, which most people think of as OS (aka Open Source)
2014-08-27T03:07:50Z gendl: ah. Open Source Software. OSS. yes.
2014-08-27T03:07:55Z gendl: I read OS = Operating System.
2014-08-27T03:08:44Z gendl: For anyone who was in the tutorial or wants to try the downloads: there is a pretty bad bug in the “show settables” section of tasty right now!
2014-08-27T03:09:18Z gendl: If you try to change any settable slots, DON”T use  - just click away from the type-in field, to submit.
2014-08-27T03:09:29Z bhyde`: having written a large knowlege base system ... it's becomes hard to distinquish from an operating system ;)
2014-08-27T03:09:40Z gendl: new builds with a fix will be online by this weekend.
2014-08-27T03:10:01Z gendl: This was the cause of the “memory black hole” I mentioned in the tutorial (and which one participant experienced).
2014-08-27T03:10:46Z gendl: stupid, silly little bug: what happened was the web page submitted a request _both_ through a normal http form submittal _and_ through an ajax submittal.
2014-08-27T03:11:26Z gendl: the result was simultaneous competing threads trying to change a value run through the dependency graph.
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2014-08-27T03:11:47Z gendl: the dependecy-graph code was not thread-safe.
2014-08-27T03:12:35Z gendl: this resulted in unpredictably corrupted data structures and utter havoc, in some cases entering an infinite recursion which could consume all memory on the machine.
2014-08-27T03:13:14Z gendl: if you want to be entertained by this, then by all means try the “more-boxes” example and change the number of boxes in the “show settables” and hit … you’ve been warned.
2014-08-27T03:13:32Z gendl: The problem didn’t show up in Allegro because we haven’t been running SMP there yet.
2014-08-27T03:14:04Z gendl: These new self-contained builds were done for the ILC tutorial and were build with CCL, which has SMP by default.
2014-08-27T03:14:16Z gendl: So the competing threads were truly competing and interleaving.
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2014-08-27T03:15:16Z gendl: The upcoming build fixes both the redundant form submittal as well as makes the dependency-graph stuff to be thread-safe (a sort of ham-handed thread safe using locking, but thread-safe nonetheless).
2014-08-27T03:19:43Z gendl: by the way, if you guys are on facebook, I just put a few ILC photos there http://facebook.com/dcooper8
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2014-08-27T03:28:03Z gendl: sorry should have moved all the gendl bug announcement stuff into #gendl
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2014-08-27T04:20:18Z drmeister: Would it be a big drawback these days to limit a Common Lisp to run on 64 bit systems?
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2014-08-27T04:21:07Z drmeister: I can do things with 64bit tagged pointers that are difficult to do with 32bit tagged pointers.
2014-08-27T04:21:11Z rme: I don't think that's necessarily an unreasonable choice.
2014-08-27T04:21:15Z drmeister: *impossible*
2014-08-27T04:21:33Z Bike: my netbook is 32 bits, but i'm in the minority. I think sbcl does a lot more with tagging on 64bit too.
2014-08-27T04:21:50Z Bike: or, like, tags are longer or something. the obvious thing to do, i suppose.
2014-08-27T04:22:07Z rme: It was a lot of trouble to make ccl run on 32-bit x86 after it was already running on x86-64, and I sort of wonder who even uses the 32-bit port.
2014-08-27T04:22:15Z drmeister: Of course when I do come up with molecular robots, they will have to be 64 bit if they are going to run Clasp.
2014-08-27T04:22:23Z rme: But I really have no idea who is using ccl at all, for that matter.
2014-08-27T04:22:58Z rme: Many ARM processors are still 32-bit;  I don't know if you're interested in them.
2014-08-27T04:23:30Z drmeister: iPhones are 64 bit now.    In five years everything will be 64 bit.
2014-08-27T04:24:20Z drmeister: I've resisted the temptation to use more tags.  But if I had more I could create immediate values for source code locations (file-id/lineno/column).
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2014-08-27T04:26:39Z drmeister: Must think.
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2014-08-27T04:54:42Z loke_: I'm trying to get slime-filename-translations working
2014-08-27T04:54:57Z loke_: It seems to me that this thing is never even consulted
2014-08-27T04:55:13Z loke_: Is there some trick to using it, other than simply adding the entry in there?
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2014-08-27T04:57:39Z Bike: probably some DSPs or something too. how often do you think you're going to need to synthesize things on a microcontroller, drmeister :p
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2014-08-27T05:00:12Z hereandthere: System "sb-posix" not found error message when trying to install hunchentoot using quicklisp
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2014-08-27T05:00:49Z hereandthere: ubuntu:sbcl(1.1.4-debian):emacs:quicklisp:
2014-08-27T05:01:08Z hereandthere: Does anyone have any idea as to why sb-posix would be missing ?
2014-08-27T05:01:19Z pillton: (require 'sb-posix) ?
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2014-08-27T05:02:50Z hereandthere: pillton: I get NIL as the return value
2014-08-27T05:02:50Z hereandthere: Then I try installing hunchentoot once more, but still fails
2014-08-27T05:03:09Z hereandthere: CL-USER> (require 'sb-posix) NIL CL-USER> (ql:quickload "hunchentoot") To load "hunchentoot":   Load 1 ASDF system:     hunchentoot ; Loading "hunchentoot"
2014-08-27T05:03:18Z hereandthere: let me try pastebin
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2014-08-27T05:05:15Z hereandthere: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143519
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2014-08-27T05:10:16Z pillton: I am not sure what is going on. Try starting sbcl with --no-userinit and evaluating (require 'sb-posix).
2014-08-27T05:10:51Z pillton: If you see ("SB-POSIX") then the error is in your .sbclrc I guess.
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2014-08-27T05:11:12Z loke_: hereandthere: what OS are you on?
2014-08-27T05:11:46Z hereandthere: loke_: ubuntu
2014-08-27T05:11:50Z hereandthere: pillton: I will try that
2014-08-27T05:12:16Z loke_: hereandthere: what's the output of (find-package "SB-POSIX") ?
2014-08-27T05:15:23Z hereandthere: loke_: #
2014-08-27T05:15:39Z hereandthere: I have a theory
2014-08-27T05:16:19Z hereandthere: I have this on my .emacs
2014-08-27T05:16:20Z hereandthere: (setq slime-lisp-implementations '((sbcl ("sbcl" "--core" "/home/pperez/code/lisp/sbcl.core-for-slime"))))
2014-08-27T05:16:45Z hereandthere: would that freeze my image and if sb-posix wasn't compiled in, then it would not be able to find it ?
2014-08-27T05:17:49Z loke_: hereandthere: correct
2014-08-27T05:17:57Z hereandthere: let me comment that out
2014-08-27T05:18:00Z loke_: hereandthere: why don't you use a plain sbcl?
2014-08-27T05:18:19Z hereandthere: because I am learning and trying things out
2014-08-27T05:18:20Z hereandthere: ;)
2014-08-27T05:18:38Z hereandthere: to a certain extent I have very little idea as to what I am doing
2014-08-27T05:19:08Z hereandthere: so I am still bumping against the walls, trying to find my way around
2014-08-27T05:19:46Z pillton: I wouldn't worry about images for now then.
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2014-08-27T05:22:02Z hereandthere: I was just trying to make it go fast (as documented on the slime manual)
2014-08-27T05:22:10Z hereandthere: That was it, I commented it out and we are good
2014-08-27T05:22:49Z hereandthere: I will continue working through lisp-for-the-web. thanks pillton loke_
2014-08-27T05:23:16Z loke_: hereandthere: You save a few seconds on compile time at startup
2014-08-27T05:23:22Z loke_: Not worth it
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2014-08-27T05:23:57Z hereandthere: indeed, the gain wasn't much. I will keep it simple for now.
2014-08-27T05:24:04Z hereandthere: Thank You
2014-08-27T05:24:14Z pillton: No problem. Enjoy!
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2014-08-27T05:38:37Z PuercoPop: AeroNotix: I can't find your fork of djula that has add-template-directory, which appears to be needed for lispkit.
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2014-08-27T06:05:00Z lang_: Is there any library in lisp similar to networkx in python?
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2014-08-27T06:05:57Z H4ns: lang_: can you ask your question in terms of functionality?
2014-08-27T06:07:23Z lang_: Complex networks of symbols
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2014-08-27T06:31:30Z jasom: H4ns: graph manipulation and analysis
2014-08-27T06:32:32Z H4ns: https://github.com/kraison/graph-utils maybe?
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2014-08-27T06:45:21Z jasom: I found this on cliki too: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-graph/
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2014-08-27T07:34:01Z schjetne: Trying to figure out what to name the generic function that removes an object in a remote database
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2014-08-27T07:39:54Z H4ns: schjetne: we called it delete-object in bknr-datastore
2014-08-27T07:41:18Z schjetne: that makes sense
2014-08-27T07:41:32Z schjetne: I was thinking delete* for brevity, but I wasn't thrilled
2014-08-27T07:42:40Z schjetne: I'm working on a library for ArangoDB
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2014-08-27T08:04:08Z p_l|backup: http://www.curse.com/ksp-mods/kerbal/222031-automated-guidance-computer <--- a bit OT (Scheme apparently), but funny use of Lisp in game mods
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2014-08-27T09:01:31Z AeroNotix: vlnx: hello
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2014-08-27T09:06:37Z wasamasa: TIL clojure used to be implemented in common lisp
2014-08-27T09:06:47Z wasamasa: my mind is still blown
2014-08-27T09:06:48Z AeroNotix: indeed! I would love to get ahold of that stuff
2014-08-27T09:06:57Z AeroNotix: I just saw a couple of slides from the EuroClojure talks
2014-08-27T09:07:25Z wasamasa: looks like they decided to get rid of the dependency on common lisp fairly early, but only once they had the rough design finished
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2014-08-27T09:07:51Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: to be honest it does make sense
2014-08-27T09:08:00Z tvaalen: I've seen that code somewhere. Maybe som branch on github.
2014-08-27T09:08:02Z AeroNotix: I wish clojure had a couple more of CL's features though.
2014-08-27T09:08:08Z Shinmera-: I suppose I don't know enough about Clojure to find that amazing.
2014-08-27T09:08:09Z tvaalen: So just go look.
2014-08-27T09:08:22Z AeroNotix: I really would like proper keyword arguments
2014-08-27T09:08:28Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: of course, considering the praise I've seen for using common lisp as rapid prototyping language for complex ideas
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2014-08-27T09:09:23Z wasamasa: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/8bdcea4f32a37bb7bb48bbf0e3be09708648b88d
2014-08-27T09:09:28Z wasamasa: here's an example of it
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2014-08-27T09:09:39Z wasamasa: it looks like initially it was common lisp that emitted java code using FORMAT
2014-08-27T09:09:44Z AeroNotix: yupp
2014-08-27T09:09:50Z AeroNotix: which is pretty crazy to think about
2014-08-27T09:10:01Z petrutrimbitas: hi, I’m learning lisp
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2014-08-27T09:10:06Z AeroNotix: petrutrimbitas: awesome
2014-08-27T09:10:18Z petrutrimbitas: from practical common lisp, i tried the example: (remove-if-not #'(lambda (x) (=1 (mod x 2 ))) ' (1 2 3 4 5 6 7))
2014-08-27T09:10:38Z petrutrimbitas: but the compiler gives a warning
2014-08-27T09:10:47Z H4ns: petrutrimbitas: "=1" is not the same as "= 1"
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2014-08-27T09:10:55Z petrutrimbitas: oh
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2014-08-27T09:11:00Z AeroNotix: and it's not a warning either
2014-08-27T09:11:06Z H4ns: petrutrimbitas: make sure that you precisely type in the examples.
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2014-08-27T09:12:10Z malice: Hello. I updated my system (Crunchbang, based on Debian) after 2 months of not touching my PC, and SLIME isn't working. :(
2014-08-27T09:12:24Z malice: Does anybody know something that could help me?
2014-08-27T09:12:27Z Shinmera-: "isn't working" is very useful information
2014-08-27T09:12:28Z malice: Here's what I got:
2014-08-27T09:12:29Z malice: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143520
2014-08-27T09:12:29Z AeroNotix: malice: post the error
2014-08-27T09:12:46Z malice: I prefer to describe what I want, than paste. :)
2014-08-27T09:12:55Z Shinmera-: malice: upgrade slime
2014-08-27T09:13:18Z H4ns: (ql:update-client) (ql:upgrade-all-dists)
2014-08-27T09:13:35Z malice: Okay. I'll try this, thanks!
2014-08-27T09:13:46Z AeroNotix: how does one vote for a package to get into the main Quicklisp dist?
2014-08-27T09:14:08Z Shinmera-: AeroNotix: you make a ticket on the quicklisp-projects github page
2014-08-27T09:14:10Z H4ns: AeroNotix: there is no voting. just submit it.
2014-08-27T09:14:12Z AeroNotix: Shinmera-: thanks!
2014-08-27T09:14:15Z petrutrimbitas: thanks guys, it works now
2014-08-27T09:14:17Z AeroNotix: H4ns: cool, thanks
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2014-08-27T09:15:28Z AeroNotix: dang there's a lot of pending request. Looks like Xach might need some people to go through and prune those.
2014-08-27T09:15:51Z Shinmera-: There are not, he just doesn't close them immediately
2014-08-27T09:16:18Z Shinmera-: Usually when you submit a ticket and it compiles fine it'll be in the next month's release.
2014-08-27T09:16:26Z AeroNotix: Gotcha
2014-08-27T09:16:49Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: so, this commit got rid of the common lisp in clojure: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/b6db84aea2db2ddebcef58918971258464cbf46f
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2014-08-27T09:17:16Z Shinmera-: That's one hell of a commit
2014-08-27T09:17:20Z wasamasa: mhh
2014-08-27T09:17:26Z AeroNotix: my browser is struggling to render it!
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2014-08-27T09:17:47Z wasamasa: yeah, github insists on prerendering all of it before giving control to your browser
2014-08-27T09:17:52Z wasamasa: or gives up if it's too long
2014-08-27T09:17:54Z wasamasa: it's pretty weird
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2014-08-27T09:24:04Z brucem: wasamasa: right before he deleted it: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/tree/07060b8e569c6fd9073da42bcb80f3ab26251195/src/lisp
2014-08-27T09:24:35Z brucem: wasamasa: and the commit history for the directory: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commits/07060b8e569c6fd9073da42bcb80f3ab26251195/src/lisp
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2014-08-27T09:24:47Z wasamasa: brucem: ah, nice
2014-08-27T09:24:55Z wasamasa: brucem: didn't know about *that* feature of github
2014-08-27T09:26:03Z brucem: wasamasa: and if you look around .. you'll see his initial commit of the CL was April 12 ... he also had a .NET version with an initial commit of April 6 ... it looks like he was originally maintaining it across 3 implementations.
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2014-08-27T09:41:31Z malice: Hey. I'm back from the error I posted( http://paste.lisp.org/display/143520 )
2014-08-27T09:41:35Z malice: It's still there.
2014-08-27T09:42:18Z malice: I downloaded slime again by quicklisp, updated quicklisp before doing so, and it still looks the same... Plus I can't run (ql:upgrade-all-dists)
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2014-08-27T09:43:30Z Shinmera-: malice: try just doing (ql:update-dist "quicklisp")
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2014-08-27T09:44:10Z malice: That gave some output.
2014-08-27T09:44:11Z H4ns: malice: sorry, ql:update-all-dists
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2014-08-27T09:45:02Z malice: Oh. That worked.
2014-08-27T09:45:05Z malice: Thanks a lot guys! :)
2014-08-27T09:45:17Z Shinmera-: Happy hacking!
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2014-08-27T10:28:39Z nakiya: hello
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2014-08-27T10:30:19Z Shinmera-: bye
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2014-08-27T11:09:02Z petrutrimbitas: how do i use mapcar inside a defun ?
2014-08-27T11:09:45Z H4ns: petrutrimbitas: like any other function.  what is your problem with it?
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2014-08-27T11:10:31Z petrutrimbitas: http://ideone.com/hWsUoV
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2014-08-27T11:10:54Z H4ns: petrutrimbitas: what text are you reading to learn lisp?
2014-08-27T11:11:02Z petrutrimbitas: practical common lisp
2014-08-27T11:11:12Z Shinmera-: what even is this
2014-08-27T11:11:19Z H4ns: petrutrimbitas: you need to be more diligent with typing in examples.
2014-08-27T11:11:36Z petrutrimbitas: this wasn’t an example
2014-08-27T11:11:43Z H4ns: petrutrimbitas: every space and every parenthesis should be considered significant until you really understand why not.
2014-08-27T11:11:48Z petrutrimbitas: i wanted to solve this problem: https://www.hackerrank.com/challenges/fp-update-list
2014-08-27T11:11:51Z H4ns: petrutrimbitas: what you've pasted is not lisp at all.
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2014-08-27T11:12:59Z petrutrimbitas: I don’t understand what did i do wrong. can you please explain me again ?
2014-08-27T11:13:24Z H4ns: petrutrimbitas: you did not type the right number of parentheses
2014-08-27T11:13:43Z H4ns: there is a difference between "mapcar" and "(mapcar" and the difference is very significant.
2014-08-27T11:13:52Z petrutrimbitas: at the call of foo? i changed to foo(1 -1)
2014-08-27T11:13:55Z rus: has anyone tried to compile ECL on windows recently? I am struggling to compile it with express 2013
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2014-08-27T11:14:06Z H4ns: petrutrimbitas: foo(1 -1) is not valid lisp syntax.
2014-08-27T11:14:15Z petrutrimbitas: oh
2014-08-27T11:14:16Z petrutrimbitas: sorry
2014-08-27T11:14:17Z H4ns: petrutrimbitas: you need to read and understand the basic chapters about lisp.
2014-08-27T11:14:51Z petrutrimbitas: sorry, i’m used to c++ and haven’t seen that mistake
2014-08-27T11:17:53Z splittist: petrutrimbitas: it will all make sense very quickly. When you want to invoke something in lisp, start with parens -> () and then fill them in. What is the function? foo. So put foo first in the parens. (foo ). What will I call foo with? 1 and -1. So put them in. (foo 1 -1). Done!
2014-08-27T11:18:54Z petrutrimbitas: yes, i know that, still not used to it. i’ve fixed that issue. can you look again :D ? http://ideone.com/hWsUoV
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2014-08-27T11:21:16Z splittist: petrutrimbitas: what does 'language: CLIPS' mean on that page? Or am I just looking at what you've typed?
2014-08-27T11:21:37Z petrutrimbitas: i think it’s lisp but if i run that code on slime
2014-08-27T11:21:42Z petrutrimbitas: doesn’t work
2014-08-27T11:21:51Z p_l: CLIPS was an expert system shell
2014-08-27T11:22:14Z p_l: derived from OPS (which iirc was written, or at least started in LISP), but written in C
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2014-08-27T11:22:33Z splittist: petrutrimbitas: how many arguments does foo take?
2014-08-27T11:22:44Z petrutrimbitas: one which is a list
2014-08-27T11:22:45Z petrutrimbitas: i think
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2014-08-27T11:23:49Z splittist: OK. But you have called it with two. Also, you are mapcaring over 'x == (quote x) == the symbol named X, not the parameter x.
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2014-08-27T11:24:21Z Xach: p_l: the ops5 syntax is very lispy.
2014-08-27T11:24:37Z p_l: Xach: most expert system shells had lispy syntax
2014-08-27T11:24:44Z H4ns: petrutrimbitas: also not that single quotes don't come in pairs.  they quote the next expression
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2014-08-27T11:24:53Z p_l: Jess is technically at least a relative of Lisp, for example
2014-08-27T11:25:00Z H4ns: petrutrimbitas: so it is "'foo", not "'foo'"
2014-08-27T11:25:56Z petrutrimbitas: i haven’t used quotes, sorry i’m new to lisp so i’ll ask lots of questions
2014-08-27T11:26:24Z petrutrimbitas: i don’t want to annoy you
2014-08-27T11:26:41Z H4ns: petrutrimbitas: we have understood that.  you don't need to repeat that you're or apologize, but please try to learn.
2014-08-27T11:26:46Z Shinmera-: I'm not sure how much of PCL you've read, iirc it explains everything rather well.
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2014-08-27T11:27:58Z petrutrimbitas: H4ns: i didn’t understand what you were saying about the quotes
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2014-08-27T11:28:41Z H4ns: petrutrimbitas: a single quote quotes the next expression, which implicitly ends.   so '(foo bar) or 'foo are proper, but 'foo' is not and neither is '(foo bar)'
2014-08-27T11:29:00Z splittist: petrutrimbitas: if I take your code, put it in the *slime-scratch* buffer, remove the extraneous quote, reformat (no spaces after open paren, no spaces before a close-paren), then compile with C-c C-c and call (foo (list 1 -1)) from my repl, I get (1 1). Success!
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2014-08-27T11:29:54Z petrutrimbitas: thanks for explaining
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2014-08-27T11:31:31Z mood: petrutrimbitas: Also, at ideone, you should probably use the language "Common Lisp", instead of "CLIPS"
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2014-08-27T11:33:14Z wasamasa: CLIPS: Fasten your Seatbelts™
2014-08-27T11:33:57Z wasamasa: COMMON LIPS: Not for Peasants©
2014-08-27T11:34:02Z splittist: petrutrimbitas: because CL is awesome, I can change the argument list in your defun to say (&rest x), recompile the function (C-c C-c), and call (foo 1 -1) to get (1 1).
2014-08-27T11:34:30Z petrutrimbitas: what is &rest ?
2014-08-27T11:36:41Z splittist: petrutrimbitas: it is a lambda-list keyword which means (roughly) "take the rest of the things passed to me and put them in the following variable". lambda-list is the way we talk about the list of arguments/parameters to function definitions (and a whole lot else, of course).
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2014-08-27T11:38:50Z splittist can hear the teeth-grinding at his hand-wavy and approximate explanations
2014-08-27T11:38:56Z mood: petrutrimbitas: It's introduced in chapter 5 of PCL, so you should probably just keep reading
2014-08-27T11:39:06Z petrutrimbitas: ok
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2014-08-27T11:45:08Z ^Posterdati^: hi
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2014-08-27T11:45:30Z ^Posterdati^: will sb-bluetooth be added in quicklisp?
2014-08-27T11:46:05Z Shinmera-: ^Posterdati^: Ask the dev to submit a ticket to QL
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2014-08-27T12:34:43Z Xach: ^Posterdati^: if it works only on sbcl, it will probably not be added.
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2014-08-27T12:36:09Z ^Posterdati^: ok, thanks
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2014-08-27T13:36:37Z ^Posterdati^: goo
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2014-08-27T14:26:16Z chitofan: i cant evaluate this function
2014-08-27T14:26:16Z chitofan: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143524
2014-08-27T14:26:23Z chitofan: can anybody help me spot why?
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2014-08-27T14:26:36Z chitofan: there isn't any error.. my REPL just stops responding
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2014-08-27T14:26:59Z Aranshada|W: chitofan: My guess is infinite loop.
2014-08-27T14:27:00Z Shinmera-: Because you have an infinite tail recursion
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2014-08-27T14:27:44Z Aranshada|W: chitofan: You're calling check-mergep on the same argument recursively.
2014-08-27T14:27:45Z chitofan: but it should exit the function when the (null row) is true right?
2014-08-27T14:27:49Z Aranshada|W: No.
2014-08-27T14:27:54Z Shinmera-: but you're calling it with the same argument again
2014-08-27T14:27:56Z Aranshada|W: Because you keep calling it with the exact same argument as the original.
2014-08-27T14:28:02Z Aranshada|W: (check-mergep row)
2014-08-27T14:28:17Z chitofan: but that's for the else part
2014-08-27T14:28:18Z chitofan: isn't it?
2014-08-27T14:28:24Z chitofan: if the condition is true, return nil
2014-08-27T14:28:26Z Aranshada|W: What?
2014-08-27T14:28:37Z Aranshada|W: Yeah, but if you don't pass in a null row to begin with, you get an infinite recursive function.
2014-08-27T14:28:39Z chitofan: oh sorry
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2014-08-27T14:28:49Z Aranshada|W: That check is in the and.
2014-08-27T14:28:50Z chitofan: i forgot to put (rest row)
2014-08-27T14:28:55Z Aranshada|W: There you go.
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2014-08-27T14:31:18Z chitofan: thanks :)
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2014-08-27T14:34:09Z wasamasa: chitofan: why are you using recursion for that anyways
2014-08-27T14:34:31Z wasamasa: chitofan: this isn't scheme
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2014-08-27T14:35:57Z chitofan: it seemed fun..
2014-08-27T14:36:13Z chitofan: i was trying to create a function that looked for 2 similar consecutive values in a list
2014-08-27T14:36:36Z chitofan: if '(x x z c v) it should recognise x and x
2014-08-27T14:36:52Z chitofan: so if i didn't use a list eater, is there an alternative way i could implement it?
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2014-08-27T14:38:16Z wasamasa: loop over it?
2014-08-27T14:38:27Z wasamasa: or transform the list
2014-08-27T14:38:55Z AeroNotix: Xach: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/731#issuecomment-53580949 I don't particularly follow what you mean here
2014-08-27T14:39:38Z Bike: (loop for (a b) on list when (eql a b) do (return t))
2014-08-27T14:42:09Z isoraqathedh: do (return t) should be able to be replaced with just a plain return t?
2014-08-27T14:42:33Z Bike: yes, you're right.
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2014-08-27T14:45:22Z Xach: AeroNotix: what has to be installed to use cl-webkit?
2014-08-27T14:45:29Z chitofan: when can recursion be useful?
2014-08-27T14:45:39Z Xach: AeroNotix: have you used it? what did you install to use it?
2014-08-27T14:45:51Z eudoxia_: Xach: the GTK libraries and WebKit/GTK I believe
2014-08-27T14:45:53Z AeroNotix: Xach: right, now I understand
2014-08-27T14:46:03Z AeroNotix: Xach: webkitgtk3 and gtk3
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2014-08-27T14:46:17Z AeroNotix: webkitgtk2
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2014-08-27T14:47:10Z Xach: AeroNotix: How did you install those?
2014-08-27T14:47:37Z AeroNotix: Xach: through my package manager, I use archlinux so I installed https://www.archlinux.org/packages/extra/x86_64/webkitgtk2/
2014-08-27T14:47:51Z Shinmera-: Bike: Or even (loop for (a b) on list thereis (eql a b))
2014-08-27T14:47:58Z AeroNotix: and https://www.archlinux.org/packages/extra/x86_64/gtk3/
2014-08-27T14:48:21Z Bike: snazzy
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2014-08-27T14:48:49Z Xach: (some #'eql list (rest list))?
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2014-08-27T14:49:54Z pjb: chitofan: when you are chasing more than one cat.
2014-08-27T14:49:57Z Xach: AeroNotix: ok. i don't have anything on my system that easily provides the required foreign libraries, it seems.
2014-08-27T14:50:08Z AeroNotix: Xach: which system are you using?
2014-08-27T14:50:16Z Xach: Debian 7
2014-08-27T14:50:22Z AeroNotix: Xach: let me snoop around
2014-08-27T14:50:35Z Xach: The cl-webkit build groveling produces an error about glibconfig.h, of all things.
2014-08-27T14:50:42Z pjb: chitofan: but you can use recusion in lisp, don't worry.  Even in CL, some compilers optimize it out, and otherwise it only matters if the depth of your recursion is too big for your stack.
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2014-08-27T14:51:13Z AeroNotix: Xach: https://packages.debian.org/sid/gir1.2-webkit2-3.0 is this it?
2014-08-27T14:51:24Z eudoxia_: Xach: perhaps libwebkit2gtk-3.0-dev
2014-08-27T14:51:30Z AeroNotix: or this? https://packages.debian.org/sid/libwebkitgtk-3.0-0
2014-08-27T14:51:40Z Xach: I tried libwebkitgtk-3.0-dev.
2014-08-27T14:51:43Z AeroNotix: dang
2014-08-27T14:51:47Z Xach: Does not build, there's a glibconfig.h error.
2014-08-27T14:52:10Z AeroNotix: https://packages.debian.org/sid/libwebkit2gtk-3.0-dev
2014-08-27T14:52:13Z AeroNotix: try this one^
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2014-08-27T14:52:37Z Xach: How?
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2014-08-27T14:52:55Z AeroNotix: I don't know, I don't use debian. Isn't that just a separate package?
2014-08-27T14:53:06Z AeroNotix: apt-get install libwebkit2gtk ?
2014-08-27T14:53:17Z Xach: I don't know. It's not within the repos I have configured, searched via apt-cache search.
2014-08-27T14:53:51Z Shinmera-: Well it is in SID, so you'd have to add testing repos.
2014-08-27T14:54:11Z AeroNotix: ah right
2014-08-27T14:54:12Z Shinmera-: *unstable
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2014-08-27T14:54:56Z Xach: I'll give it a try later.
2014-08-27T14:55:02Z AeroNotix: Xach: appreciated
2014-08-27T14:55:36Z Shinmera-: Xach: Mixing different package branches leads to horror scenarios in most cases.
2014-08-27T14:55:53Z Xach: I'm thinking of just trying to build from a sid source package.
2014-08-27T14:56:01Z Shinmera-: Ah, right.
2014-08-27T14:56:19Z Xach: I'm also happy to try to build from webkit2 source, but it looks more complex than just that.
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2014-08-27T14:56:38Z AeroNotix: webkit2 is different from webkit2gtk
2014-08-27T14:57:04Z mood: It appears to be in the same source tree though
2014-08-27T14:57:52Z Xach: just like boyz are different from boyz 2 men.
2014-08-27T14:58:01Z AeroNotix: Xach: Exactly! :)
2014-08-27T14:58:26Z wasamasa: I just had the worst idea ever
2014-08-27T14:58:39Z Xach: Going offtopic on #lisp?
2014-08-27T14:58:42Z wasamasa: doing a lisp implementation running on ruby
2014-08-27T14:58:50Z AeroNotix: surely that's been done
2014-08-27T14:58:54Z Xach: so many times
2014-08-27T14:59:00Z wasamasa: nah, I've seen rouge only
2014-08-27T14:59:06Z wasamasa: which isn't quite common lisp
2014-08-27T14:59:24Z H4ns: right.  a common lisp implemented in ruby.
2014-08-27T14:59:38Z dlowe: I'm a little surprised someone hasn't tried writing a ruby->CL compiler
2014-08-27T14:59:49Z wasamasa: dlowe: why would you want to have that?
2014-08-27T14:59:49Z dlowe: too easy?
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2014-08-27T15:00:08Z dlowe: wasamasa: you can say that about a great many things that have been made.
2014-08-27T15:00:17Z dlowe: and that did not prevent their construction
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2014-08-27T15:00:44Z wasamasa: the only thing speaking for it would be speed
2014-08-27T15:01:06Z wasamasa: which rubyists attain by using FFI
2014-08-27T15:01:06Z eudoxia_: uh
2014-08-27T15:01:06Z eudoxia_: what about the thousands of libraries ready to port?
2014-08-27T15:01:06Z dlowe: that is the particular pain point of ruby
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2014-08-27T15:01:27Z Shinmera-: I'd rather see a CL -> Malbolge compiler.
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2014-08-27T15:23:47Z Guest71489: hi. I have a noob question, but I am stuck... I want to save a String like "A=B" in a vector.. I get "A=B" from a concatenation.. code looks like this: (setf (aref result j) (format t "~S=~S" parent-name (elt parent-values j))))
2014-08-27T15:23:47Z Guest71489: I am doing this in a loop over j
2014-08-27T15:23:47Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2014-08-27T15:23:47Z Guest71489: the output is correct, but it's not saved to the result array
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2014-08-27T15:24:09Z Bike: A vector of strings, or a vector of characters?
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2014-08-27T15:24:22Z H4ns: Guest71489: try (format nil ...) instead
2014-08-27T15:24:24Z rme: (format t ...) prints to the terminal.   (format nil ...) returns a string.
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2014-08-27T15:24:35Z Guest71489: ahh
2014-08-27T15:24:35Z Bike: oh, right, format t returns nil or something, maybe
2014-08-27T15:24:59Z Guest71489: ok will try
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2014-08-27T15:26:21Z Guest71489: it doesn't print it anymore. and NIL is returned.. I am doing something wrong.. have to set breakpoints and check why that is. but thanks a lot for the pointer!
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2014-08-27T15:26:50Z Bike: Did you remember to actually return result at the end of the loop?
2014-08-27T15:26:56Z Guest71489: yeah
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2014-08-27T15:27:09Z Guest71489: but I have to debug my loop..
2014-08-27T15:27:10Z Guest71489: :)
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2014-08-27T15:28:55Z |3b|: (format nil ...) isn't supposed to print anything
2014-08-27T15:29:10Z Guest71489: yeah
2014-08-27T15:29:10Z |3b|: it creates a string nd returns it
2014-08-27T15:29:10Z Guest71489: i got that
2014-08-27T15:29:11Z Guest71489: that's what I need
2014-08-27T15:30:07Z |3b|: ok, i misinterpreted what you mean by 'doing something wrong', ignore me :)
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2014-08-27T15:31:16Z Guest71489: no, no.. thanks.. I am being unclear
2014-08-27T15:31:17Z Guest71489: sorry
2014-08-27T15:32:03Z pjb: Guest71489: you should write your functions bottom up.
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2014-08-27T15:32:13Z Guest71489: pjb: you are right
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2014-08-27T15:32:26Z pjb: First (let ((parent-name "A") (parent-value #(1 2 3)) (j 1)) (format nil "~S=~S" parent-name (elt parent-values j)))
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2014-08-27T15:32:39Z |3b|: easiest to help if you can paste the code somewhere (not here though, something like paste.lisp.org) so we can look at it in context
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2014-08-27T15:41:49Z pjb: Then (let ((parent-name "A") (parent-value #(1 2 3)) (j 1) (result (make-array 3))) (setf (aref
2014-08-27T15:41:49Z pjb: result j) (format nil "~S=~S" parent-name (elt parent-values j))) result)
2014-08-27T15:41:50Z pjb: etc. wrapping the subexpression in expressions until you only have the parameters of the function in the let. Then you transform the let in defun and you're good.
2014-08-27T15:41:50Z pjb: It's easy to do in a .lisp buffer with slime, since you can evaluate things in place with C-u C-x C-e
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2014-08-27T15:41:50Z pjb: or C-x C-e
2014-08-27T15:41:50Z Guest71489: wow that's a lot to take in :)
2014-08-27T15:41:50Z Guest71489: thanks a lot so far!
2014-08-27T15:41:56Z pjb: Guest71489: there are systems like lighttable that automatize that a little, by evaluating expressons automatically while you type them.  It would take a couple of weeks to add this features to slime I'd say.
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2014-08-27T15:42:30Z Guest71489: |3b|: next time I'll post an url for better readability of my problem
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2014-08-27T15:45:23Z pjb: using http://paste.lisp.org/new
2014-08-27T15:45:23Z Guest71489: will do
2014-08-27T15:45:23Z Guest71489: thanks!
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2014-08-27T16:10:23Z shka: ave tux!
2014-08-27T16:10:26Z shka: and ave lisp!
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2014-08-27T16:17:25Z rme: Would anyone have an email address for the people who work on cl-test-grid?  I tried sending mail to cl-test-grid@gmail.com (as listed at https://github.com/cl-test-grid), but it bounced.
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2014-08-27T16:19:01Z shka: rme: is it listed in quicklisp?
2014-08-27T16:19:01Z Xach: avodonosov at yandex.ru is what i use
2014-08-27T16:19:27Z shka: if it is, i suspect Xach
2014-08-27T16:19:41Z shka: since he seems to be the central hub of the community nowdays
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2014-08-27T16:19:48Z rme: Xach: Thansk you, I'll try that.
2014-08-27T16:20:15Z shka: i knew it!
2014-08-27T16:20:24Z rme: Thansk?
2014-08-27T16:20:49Z shka: well, i knew that Xach will tell :P
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2014-08-27T16:21:02Z shka: so... well
2014-08-27T16:21:12Z Xach: I ain't the central hub of nothing
2014-08-27T16:22:25Z shka: well, if you say so...
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2014-08-27T16:22:32Z shka: anyway
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2014-08-27T16:22:49Z shka: i'm wonder how static typing in the common lisp works on the compiler level
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2014-08-27T16:23:06Z shka: do we need to link?
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2014-08-27T16:25:55Z Shinmera-: shka: You might be interested in reading http://blog.30dor.com/2014/03/21/performance-and-types-in-lisp/
2014-08-27T16:27:07Z |3b|: shka: same as in any language
2014-08-27T16:27:32Z |3b|: (and like most languages, it probably varies a lot between implementations)
2014-08-27T16:29:46Z |3b|: and it that variability is important to keep in mind, since for example type declarations are used quite differently on sbcl (in default settings) and other implementations
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2014-08-27T16:37:32Z shka: Shinmera-: thank you very much for the link
2014-08-27T16:38:13Z shka: |3b|: i use sbcl, but i certainly would want to run my code on other lisps as well
2014-08-27T16:38:29Z shka: will it still be portable?
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2014-08-27T16:38:53Z |3b|: portable code is portable, it is mostly the undefined behavior and optimization that differs
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2014-08-27T16:39:43Z |3b|: for example sbcl treats type declarations as an assertion to be checked at default settings, while many lisp will just trust them without verifying (sbcl will do that also at some optimization settings)
2014-08-27T16:40:09Z Xach: Simple things can really trip you up. I had some code that ran really well on most lisps but was horrible on lispworks, which at the time had 24-bit fixnums.
2014-08-27T16:40:12Z |3b|: so as long as the value is the type you said it was, it works fine on any
2014-08-27T16:40:46Z Xach: It ran much better when splitting arithmetic into 16-bit chunks. But then that was portable code that was pretty ugly to appease one implementation's quirks.
2014-08-27T16:41:12Z |3b|: but if you give it a value of the wrong type, sbcl might give you a nice error immediately, while some might just silently produce bad results
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2014-08-27T16:46:57Z shka: |3b|: that makes sense
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2014-08-27T16:59:34Z Guest71489: I have a generic function with a default method.. I have inline comments startin with ; which leads to a compile error "unbound variable ..." mentioning the method's name.
2014-08-27T16:59:52Z Guest71489: are inline comments not allowed?
2014-08-27T17:00:03Z Guest71489: how how can I add comments?
2014-08-27T17:00:22Z Guest71489: other than with (:documentation "xy")
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2014-08-27T17:00:53Z oGMo: Guest71489: paste.lisp.org/new
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2014-08-27T17:01:11Z oGMo: Guest71489: generally, keep your comments on their own line, if you really really need them
2014-08-27T17:01:19Z oGMo: or at the end of a line
2014-08-27T17:02:04Z oGMo: but also you should just name everything reasonably accurately and write clear, readable code
2014-08-27T17:02:24Z Guest71489: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143525
2014-08-27T17:03:06Z Guest71489: now I have a lot of printing out that I commented
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2014-08-27T17:03:14Z Guest71489: but maybe I need it later again
2014-08-27T17:03:25Z oGMo: and )'s go at the end of the line, not like C braces
2014-08-27T17:03:32Z Guest71489: in case something changes
2014-08-27T17:03:36Z Guest71489: :)
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2014-08-27T17:05:46Z Guest71489: now it's working....
2014-08-27T17:05:52Z oGMo: Guest71489: if you're commenting out forms, people typically use #+nil or similar .. i use #+- because it's short .. but strictly unbreakably you should use #+(or)
2014-08-27T17:06:42Z Guest71489: aha
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2014-08-27T17:07:00Z Guest71489: first time I compile I get this error.. second time it works...
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2014-08-27T17:07:30Z Guest71489: ok I try with you suggested comment style
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2014-08-27T17:10:19Z Guest71489: how can I restart slime quick and clean? my environment is getting buggy... (changed many things in many packages and need a clean restart)
2014-08-27T17:10:47Z Bike: M-x slime-restart-inferior-lisp
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2014-08-27T17:10:55Z Guest71489: ok thanks!
2014-08-27T17:10:57Z Bike: or , restart-inferior-lisp, at the repl
2014-08-27T17:11:32Z Guest71489: Bike: thanks!!
2014-08-27T17:12:46Z Guest71489: aahhh much better!
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2014-08-27T17:14:16Z Guest71489: I am writing code into extra packages and always have to run (ql:quickload :my-package) and then change to this package to test the functions I am writing... Is there a way to automate this?
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2014-08-27T17:15:44Z Xach: Guest71489: you could put it in your startup file to load it when lisp starts.
2014-08-27T17:16:00Z Xach: when things are going well for me, i restart infrequently, so i rarely put that kind of thing in my startup file.
2014-08-27T17:16:06Z Xach: i just load them as needed.
2014-08-27T17:16:18Z Guest71489: well that's true.. :)
2014-08-27T17:16:32Z Guest71489: loaded it now because didn't load since yesterday :)
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2014-08-27T17:17:23Z Guest71489: Xach: thanks!
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2014-08-27T17:19:38Z mood: Guest71489: Regarding commenting, I have, in the past, had problems when using a single ; to comment things out which were fixed by using ;;. I'm not sure when or why that happens though
2014-08-27T17:20:23Z Guest71489: mood: ;;.  ?
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2014-08-27T17:20:36Z mood: Guest71489: Double semicolon
2014-08-27T17:20:43Z Guest71489: mood: k thanks!
2014-08-27T17:20:58Z Xach: mood: ; is meant to be on the same line as some other code, and after the code. if it's on its own line, emacs indents it pretty far to the right.
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2014-08-27T17:21:11Z Xach: ;; comments are on their own line to remark on some code that follows.
2014-08-27T17:21:14Z shka: funny but if you write multithreaded alghorithm time showes that it uses more than a 100% of cpu
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2014-08-27T17:21:32Z Xach: if you're lucky
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2014-08-27T17:22:07Z mood: Xach: I know that, but for some reason it wasn't only the indentation. Maybe it was SLIME getting confused, or something
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2014-08-27T17:22:34Z mood: Xach: This was actually code in StumpWM that was commented out using a single semicolon
2014-08-27T17:22:46Z Guest71489: I used ; for single line comment without code... maybe that was the problem
2014-08-27T17:23:08Z Xach: mood: weird.
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2014-08-27T17:24:20Z mood: Xach: Yes. It was a horribly long function, which might have something to with it (if it was SLIME getting confused)
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2014-08-27T17:25:51Z Xach: maybe it was unicode comma with combining middle dot!
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2014-08-27T17:44:55Z |3b|: oGMo: #+- involves too many keys, #++ is less movement :p
2014-08-27T17:45:13Z oGMo: |3b|: funny you say that, i was playing with #++ after i mentioned that
2014-08-27T17:45:25Z oGMo: on a qwerty keyboard it's definitely less work
2014-08-27T17:46:04Z mood: Another weird comment-related thing happens when you call (in emacs) common-lisp-set-style, and select sbcl, any single-semicolon comment on its own line resulsts in "Lisp nesting exceeds `max-lisp-eval-depth'" when re-indenting it
2014-08-27T17:47:18Z mood: Actually, that seems to happen regardless of the style you select
2014-08-27T17:47:27Z pjb: Guest71489: ; comments go till the next newline, not till the next closing parenthesis.
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2014-08-27T17:49:17Z cy: oGMo: i don't think it being less work depends on layout. on any layout #+- requires at the very least, either moving to a different key or pressing or releasing a modifier (e.g. shift) between the + and -
2014-08-27T17:49:56Z |3b|: layouts with 2 of them on same key, or + using same modifier as # might be OK
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2014-08-27T17:50:09Z oGMo: cy: yeah on my datahand it's easier to move my finger left-then-right rather than reverse and hit two lefts in a row
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2014-08-27T17:50:34Z |3b|: yeah, i guess that might be more convenient too
2014-08-27T17:51:11Z cy: oGMo: gotcha. i forgot that there were input devices that weren't keyboard.
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2014-08-27T17:51:37Z oGMo: cy: well it's a keyboard, just a bit different
2014-08-27T17:51:51Z |3b|: not much of a 'board' :)
2014-08-27T17:52:03Z |3b|: keybox?
2014-08-27T17:52:08Z oGMo: me saying "qwerty" is definitely not accurate either since the datahand is actually qwerty more or less
2014-08-27T17:52:11Z cy: it's not a keyboard in the sense that it's a board covered in keys
2014-08-27T17:52:13Z oGMo: |3b|: also fair ;)
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2014-08-27T17:52:47Z cy: when did "key" become a synonym for "button" anyway?
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2014-08-27T17:54:36Z |3b|: presumably a slow transition as shape changed from piano key shape to button shape
2014-08-27T17:56:35Z |3b|: and it isn't really a synonym, lots of keys are buttons, but most buttons aren't keys
2014-08-27T17:56:58Z jasom: Is it possible to e.g. include a single .c file in asdf and have it build a dll as part of compiling the system?
2014-08-27T17:57:46Z |3b|: i think lispbuilder-sdl and comonqt build C libraries as part of installation, might see how they do it
2014-08-27T17:58:24Z |3b|: (general answer is that you can extend it to do whatever you want, but since i don't know specifics, that probably doesn't help much)
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2014-08-27T17:58:42Z oGMo: i include an entire autoconf package and have it compile as part of asdf load ;)
2014-08-27T17:59:05Z jasom: |3b|: ah, I see, thanks
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2014-08-27T18:00:35Z jasom: https://github.com/stassats/commonqt/blob/master/qt.asd#L11-33
2014-08-27T18:00:52Z jasom: It actually invokes gnu make
2014-08-27T18:00:56Z |3b|: yeah
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2014-08-27T18:01:48Z cy: jasom: it can involve gnu make. you can make it involve whatever tools you want
2014-08-27T18:01:55Z |3b|: not sure if it would be easier to deal with multiple platforms with varying compilers/options from make or lisp
2014-08-27T18:02:02Z cy: cmake, waf, automake
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2014-08-27T18:02:04Z cy: whatever
2014-08-27T18:02:30Z jasom: cy: in this case it's literally a single .c file so make might be an overkill
2014-08-27T18:02:51Z cy: jasom: so have it look for a C compiler and use that
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2014-08-27T18:03:59Z jasom: I may just port the .c file to lisp
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2014-08-27T18:04:27Z jasom: I'd need to use the cffi groveller though
2014-08-27T18:05:10Z cy: i've been giving racket a try again, lately
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2014-08-27T18:11:35Z Guest1348: q
2014-08-27T18:11:57Z wasamasa: that's not how it works
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2014-08-27T18:12:18Z cy: that's no how what works?
2014-08-27T18:12:29Z wasamasa: I assume he wants to /quit
2014-08-27T18:12:36Z wasamasa: since a bunch of clients have /q as alias
2014-08-27T18:13:12Z cy: mine has /q aliased to /query :/
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2014-08-27T18:13:39Z wasamasa: or /query?
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2014-08-27T18:15:05Z Guest1348: hi
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2014-08-27T18:15:11Z cy: hi
2014-08-27T18:15:28Z Guest1348: I'm wne in lisp
2014-08-27T18:15:46Z Guest1348: I'm wne in lisp
2014-08-27T18:15:58Z cy: you're what in what
2014-08-27T18:16:03Z cy: what?
2014-08-27T18:16:12Z Guest1348: i'm new in lisp
2014-08-27T18:16:58Z pjb: Guest1348: and in irc too.  Try /nick 
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2014-08-27T18:17:57Z Guest1348 is now known as alimiracle
2014-08-27T18:18:02Z pjb: yay!
2014-08-27T18:18:07Z pjb: Welcome alimiracle!
2014-08-27T18:18:08Z wasamasa is shocked
2014-08-27T18:19:05Z pjb: alimiracle: check http://cliki.net/Getting+Started
2014-08-27T18:19:22Z alimiracle: ok
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2014-08-27T18:24:14Z alimiracle: hi
2014-08-27T18:24:34Z alimiracle: q
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2014-08-27T18:25:32Z Shinmera-: is this a turing test
2014-08-27T18:25:34Z wasamasa: well, that was weird
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2014-08-27T18:26:05Z Xach: No need to pounce on such things.
2014-08-27T18:27:56Z shka: Shinmera-: very good article
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2014-08-27T18:34:14Z alimiracle: q
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2014-08-27T18:34:58Z alimiracle: hi
2014-08-27T18:35:05Z Xach: alimiracle: Hi.
2014-08-27T18:36:12Z alimiracle: I'm new in lisp
2014-08-27T18:36:36Z Xach: alimiracle: Ok.
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2014-08-27T18:46:21Z alimiracle: Any lisp interpreter must be used gcl clisp ....
2014-08-27T18:47:23Z |3b|: sbcl and ccl are popular CL compilers, clisp is also OK
2014-08-27T18:47:24Z alimiracle: ؟
2014-08-27T18:47:59Z oleo: clisp is not maintained afaik gcl too
2014-08-27T18:48:12Z Xach: I think gcl is actually slightly more maintained than clisp right now.
2014-08-27T18:48:20Z oleo: sbcl is developed and so is ccl
2014-08-27T18:48:25Z oleo: is being*
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2014-08-27T18:56:58Z pjb: clisp is perfectly maintained.
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2014-08-27T18:57:13Z pjb: only gcl is not a full CL implementation yet.
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2014-08-27T18:58:34Z Xach: clisp is perfectly maintained if you have a strange sense of perfection.
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2014-08-27T18:59:12Z Xach: You cannot, for example, go to the clisp website today, or yesterday, or the day before.
2014-08-27T18:59:21Z dlowe: A software which is perfectly maintained requires no maintenance. Contemplate this in meditation.
2014-08-27T18:59:49Z faheem: Xach: what lisp implementations are in good shape, in your opinion?
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2014-08-27T19:00:02Z shka: pjb: and what about cmucl?
2014-08-27T19:00:12Z Xach: I'm sure no true clisper is bothered by anything that might seem at first like an imperfection.
2014-08-27T19:00:20Z jasom: shka: cmucl is largely superseded by sbcl
2014-08-27T19:00:20Z pjb: http://sourceforge.net/projects/clisp/
2014-08-27T19:00:28Z shka: jasom: thanks
2014-08-27T19:00:52Z Xach: faheem: sbcl, clozure cl, abcl, lispworks, allegro cl. scieneer seems like it is possibly ok? not sure.
2014-08-27T19:01:06Z Xach: faheem: I hope I haven't forgotten one.
2014-08-27T19:01:15Z pjb: clisp
2014-08-27T19:01:27Z Adlai: slightly offtopic... in the introduction to "Junkbots, Bugbots, & Bots on Wheels", the author reports dreaming in code while hacking his housebot in lisp. Has anybody here dreamt in lisp?
2014-08-27T19:01:29Z Xach: I don't think clisp is in good shape. If it had a new release I would feel better about its shape.
2014-08-27T19:01:48Z pjb: Just try to find a bug in it!
2014-08-27T19:01:49Z Xach: Adlai: i have dreamed about writing code, but i'm not sure what it means to dream in code.
2014-08-27T19:02:20Z faheem: Xach: so, of the free implementations, only sbcl and clozure?
2014-08-27T19:02:35Z Adlai: Xach: the one time i felt that it's happened to me was years ago, but my recollection is that the internal narration of the dream was structured in code, rather than "natural" language
2014-08-27T19:02:38Z faheem: i don't recall abcl
2014-08-27T19:02:42Z Adlai: (and yes, the code was lisp)
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2014-08-27T19:02:46Z Xach: faheem: ABCL is under very active development.
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2014-08-27T19:02:54Z Adlai: but it's been years, and i almost miss that feeling.
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2014-08-27T19:03:18Z Xach: pjb: I am willing to exempt from the bug list things like its bizarre default handling of REQUIRE, but I can't check against the impnotes to see what is documented, because the website has been broken for days.
2014-08-27T19:03:28Z faheem: Oh, right. Armed Bear. The Java one.
2014-08-27T19:04:53Z faheem: So, three then.
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2014-08-27T19:06:35Z Xach: I think clisp and ecl are coasting, with the potential for revival. I think cmucl's revival is inhibited by sbcl. corman cl is now a curiosity. gcl is niche.
2014-08-27T19:07:00Z pjb: clisp is still the best implementation to write scripts in.
2014-08-27T19:07:05Z Xach: There's also mkcl, which seems like it could be something useful, but it is not clear to whom and how much.
2014-08-27T19:07:25Z faheem: ccl seems to be maintained mostly by two people, really more one person.
2014-08-27T19:07:49Z faheem: I don't know about abcl, I guess i could co the svn source and look at the changelog.
2014-08-27T19:07:50Z Xach: faheem: Yes, but you can pay a company to take interest in new features for you.
2014-08-27T19:08:11Z Xach: That is something not as easily found for others.
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2014-08-27T19:08:12Z faheem: Xach: true
2014-08-27T19:08:16Z ehu: faheem: abcl is actively maintained.
2014-08-27T19:08:26Z faheem: ehu: by how many people?
2014-08-27T19:08:35Z pjb: You mean, it is still being finished?  Like sbcl?
2014-08-27T19:08:47Z faheem: pjb: pardon?
2014-08-27T19:09:15Z ehu: faheem: one person commits the patches, lately, but patches are from a range of people.
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2014-08-27T19:09:26Z pjb: abcl is not finished.  sbcl perhaps has passed the bar, but it's unclear, given the need for maintaince it still has.
2014-08-27T19:09:33Z faheem: ehu: ok, I see.
2014-08-27T19:09:47Z |3b|: right, sbcl should have added arm support in the 80s
2014-08-27T19:09:47Z faheem: pjb: not sure what you mean by "finished".
2014-08-27T19:09:48Z Xach: pjb: These sorts of perverse jokes are both unfunny and inaccurate.
2014-08-27T19:09:52Z ehu: no need to check out the log: http://abcl.org/trac/timeline
2014-08-27T19:10:00Z Xach: faheem: It's performance art.
2014-08-27T19:10:05Z Shinmera-: Where's stassats when one could use his snark
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2014-08-27T19:10:33Z pjb: faheem: basically, finished = stable enough so that it doesn't need a new release every months or so.
2014-08-27T19:10:46Z ehu: pjb: abcl is "finished" to the extent that it's very useful for many people
2014-08-27T19:10:51Z faheem: pjb: but sbcl releases every month
2014-08-27T19:10:58Z faheem: I think
2014-08-27T19:10:59Z ehu: pjb: that's not finished.
2014-08-27T19:11:14Z ehu: pjb: sbcl gets lots of code generator optimizations.
2014-08-27T19:11:25Z ehu: no need for code generator optimizations to be finished.
2014-08-27T19:11:29Z |3b|: as opposed to projects which have incomplete features on branches, where lack of releases implies it is perfect and finished
2014-08-27T19:11:33Z ehu: by that definition things can't be finished.
2014-08-27T19:11:53Z ehu: |3b|: exactly.
2014-08-27T19:12:06Z cy: i wish racket had an object system more similar to common lisp
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2014-08-27T19:12:21Z Adlai: good news is you can write it!
2014-08-27T19:12:28Z Adlai: object systems are fun
2014-08-27T19:12:37Z Adlai: and look excellent on resumes
2014-08-27T19:13:52Z tokenrove: i think any discussion of compiler completeness is necessarily incomplete without mention of the full employment theorem
2014-08-27T19:14:08Z jasom: I can't figure out how to declare an array in cffi
2014-08-27T19:14:33Z Adlai: tokenrove: elaborate please
2014-08-27T19:14:44Z tokenrove: that is to say, i think it's impossible for a compiler to be finished.  but that said, some of the less active CL implementations are highly usable despite lower activity.
2014-08-27T19:14:47Z jasom: nevermind, found it under defcstruct in an example
2014-08-27T19:15:30Z tokenrove: Adlai: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~fp/courses/flac/lectures/lecture19/base.021.html for example.
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2014-08-27T19:17:50Z faheem: Do any of the free lisps get significant corporate help?
2014-08-27T19:18:10Z faheem: My perception is not, but I'm not really plugged in.
2014-08-27T19:18:24Z pjb: IIRC, ITA software gave some help to sbcl, by hiring a lot of sbcl "maintainers".
2014-08-27T19:18:28Z faheem: When I say corporation, I'm talking some org with fair amounts of money
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2014-08-27T19:18:40Z pjb: Otherwise, no.
2014-08-27T19:18:44Z faheem: pjb: is that currently happening?
2014-08-27T19:18:48Z |3b| thought ITA hired more CCL than SBCL devs
2014-08-27T19:19:02Z pjb: Well, I don't know how many lispers remains at google.
2014-08-27T19:19:12Z dlowe: I don't know about more, but we had both.
2014-08-27T19:19:17Z |3b|: or at least clozure people, if not ccl devs
2014-08-27T19:19:17Z faheem: |3b|: but there are only like 2 CCL devs. AFAIK.
2014-08-27T19:19:36Z brown````: Douglas Katzman, who works at Google, has been making many improvements to SBCL lately.
2014-08-27T19:19:37Z faheem: Byers and Emerson.
2014-08-27T19:19:40Z dlowe: There's still some lispers. We still have QPX powering Flight Search
2014-08-27T19:19:47Z |3b|: faheem: ccl is maintained by a lisp consulting company if i understand correctly
2014-08-27T19:20:13Z |3b|: faheem: so hiring them can indirectly support ccl development
2014-08-27T19:20:14Z faheem: |3b|: it is. but I think that company is mostly the people I mentioned.
2014-08-27T19:20:33Z faheem: |3b|: True
2014-08-27T19:21:04Z |3b| is fairly sure it is at least 3-4 more people, but i don't know an exact number (or even which people)
2014-08-27T19:21:05Z tokenrove: faheem: not sure how many other people are involved in CCL, but there are a bunch more people who work for Clozure
2014-08-27T19:21:08Z faheem: I spent some time packaging CCL for Debian a couple of years ago. Those are the only two are talked to.
2014-08-27T19:21:36Z faheem: There may be other people who do app development. I don't know.
2014-08-27T19:22:05Z |3b|: and aside from bus number, 2 relatively full-time developers isn't any worse than a larger number of people doing occasional patches
2014-08-27T19:22:08Z faheem: In Clozure, I mean. WRT the core compiler, I think just those two.
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2014-08-27T19:22:31Z faheem: |3b|: maybe. depends how many people understand the code base.
2014-08-27T19:22:36Z |3b| doesn't know what fraction of their time is dedicated to compiler though
2014-08-27T19:22:54Z |3b|: faheem: that's pretty much what i meant by "bus number"
2014-08-27T19:22:56Z faheem: I have the impression that CL compilers are less horrible than some.
2014-08-27T19:23:05Z faheem: |3b|: right
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2014-08-27T19:23:15Z pjb: faheem: are you sure this is what you meant to write?
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2014-08-27T19:23:33Z faheem: pjb: what do you mean?
2014-08-27T19:23:35Z tokenrove: the ccl code is quite nice, in terms of understandability.  also, gary byers frequently posts excellent explanations on the mailing list that often elucidate aspects of the implementation (or he used to; i haven't been following lately)
2014-08-27T19:23:55Z pjb: faheem: You wrote that CL compilers are less horribles than some compiler of other languages.
2014-08-27T19:24:07Z faheem: pjb: right. that was poorly worded
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2014-08-27T19:24:14Z faheem: What I meant to say was:
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2014-08-27T19:24:36Z faheem: compared to a language like say C++, CL compilers are not so terrifying to write or understand.
2014-08-27T19:24:53Z |3b| isn't sure that is true
2014-08-27T19:24:55Z pjb: Right, a totally different meaning.
2014-08-27T19:24:59Z faheem: No sane human being would try to write a C++ compiler alone. But CL is more straightforward
2014-08-27T19:25:07Z pjb: for an example, check compiler.lisp in clisp sources.
2014-08-27T19:25:10Z tokenrove: i think that depends on one's ambitions
2014-08-27T19:25:46Z faheem: Anyway, the upshot is that they may be more maintainable.
2014-08-27T19:25:56Z tokenrove: many people have recently written C++ compilers as part of the C++ Grand Master challenge, but they aren't particularly practical compilers.  one of the problems with writing a new C++ compiler is the expectations based on the competition.
2014-08-27T19:26:01Z |3b|: possibly a CL compiler could be better than a C++ compiler with comparable effort, but most popular CL compilers are very old projects
2014-08-27T19:26:16Z faheem: |3b|: ok
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2014-08-27T19:26:36Z faheem: tokenrove: not heard of the  C++ Grand Master challenge
2014-08-27T19:26:45Z |3b|: so they might be lacking some newer techniques or programming styles that would make them nicer
2014-08-27T19:27:02Z faheem: My point is that C++ is a super complex language with insane syntax.
2014-08-27T19:27:13Z |3b|: or they may have been worked on over time by random students for a few years at a time so lack a coherent design
2014-08-27T19:27:25Z faheem: CL is quite sane and regular.
2014-08-27T19:27:31Z faheem: at least in comparison
2014-08-27T19:27:39Z |3b|: or they may just do a /lot/ of work to optimize an overly dynamic language like CL
2014-08-27T19:27:51Z |3b| thinks syntax is a /very/ small part of a modern compiler
2014-08-27T19:27:52Z tokenrove: faheem: solo c++11 compiler writing course.  it's tractible, though not necessarily fun.  there are a lot of things you can do quickly if you don't care about performance or quality of error messages.
2014-08-27T19:27:53Z |3b|: even for c++
2014-08-27T19:27:59Z faheem: |3b|: that's true. Like SBCL
2014-08-27T19:28:44Z faheem: anyway, I don't know about compiler implementations, so no point expressing opinions any more.
2014-08-27T19:28:46Z tokenrove: it seems like there are a few new CL implementations popping up.
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2014-08-27T19:29:23Z faheem: tokenrove: they should improve the ones that are there.
2014-08-27T19:29:32Z faheem: CCL is pretty good, but it would be better if it was faster
2014-08-27T19:29:46Z dlowe: ... yes?
2014-08-27T19:29:49Z tokenrove: faheem: i disagree.  most of the existing compilers are built on ancient assumptions.
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2014-08-27T19:30:17Z dlowe: like, wouldn't most compilers be better if they were faster?
2014-08-27T19:30:23Z Adlai: faheem: LISP is sane and regular, but much more is expected of a CL compiler
2014-08-27T19:30:25Z faheem: tokenrove: can you elaborate on "ancient assumptions"?
2014-08-27T19:30:41Z tokenrove: one of the nice things about ccl is the compilation speed.  i wouldn't necessarily trade that off to get a second-rate sbcl.
2014-08-27T19:30:44Z dlowe: uniform memory access time comes to mind
2014-08-27T19:31:16Z pjb: What we need is more specialized compilers.  If you want faster, just buy a faster processor.
2014-08-27T19:31:40Z |3b| suspects the popular CL compilers are older than "tracing JIT" and similar techniques, which could be nice to have
2014-08-27T19:31:43Z oGMo: tokenrove: they both have tradeoffs .. i've noticed CCL's backtraces aren't as nice as SBCL's, and its CLOS calls are considerably slower
2014-08-27T19:31:44Z pjb: But now, you cannot just buy a CL implementation with a back in time debugger, or with global optimizations.
2014-08-27T19:32:00Z shka: silly question
2014-08-27T19:32:00Z pjb: We don't even have free implementation with a tree shaker.
2014-08-27T19:32:18Z faheem: So, cleanroom implementations can benefit from advances in technology?
2014-08-27T19:32:24Z pjb: shka: silly preambule.
2014-08-27T19:32:38Z tokenrove: oGMo: right.  i tended to use ccl for interactive development, but sbcl for "release" builds.
2014-08-27T19:32:52Z |3b|: faheem: wouldn't say "cleanroom", since learning from the past is good
2014-08-27T19:32:54Z oGMo: tokenrove: yeah
2014-08-27T19:32:56Z pjb: tokenrove: the right way to do it!  use different implementations.
2014-08-27T19:32:59Z tokenrove: faheem: this is one of the premises of SICL, for example
2014-08-27T19:33:11Z |3b|: but new implementations can make different design choices, and we don't have the entire design space covered yet
2014-08-27T19:33:16Z faheem: tokenrove: what is?
2014-08-27T19:33:48Z faheem: I was thinking of the scientific programming context. where speed is important. and managing memory is also important
2014-08-27T19:34:05Z pjb: or a CL compiler targetting nvidia GPUs…
2014-08-27T19:34:18Z tokenrove: faheem: that a new implementation can benefit from advances in technology (although changes seems more appropriate than advances in this context)
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2014-08-27T19:35:05Z |3b|: pjb: probably be more useful to have a CMlisp implementation targeting GPUs
2014-08-27T19:35:12Z faheem: tokenrove: ok. never heard of SICL. i'll do a search
2014-08-27T19:35:25Z pjb: |3b|: well with extensions of course.
2014-08-27T19:35:28Z |3b|: GPU aren't quite to the point of running things on their own yet
2014-08-27T19:35:45Z mood: faheem: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
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2014-08-27T19:36:18Z oGMo: |3b|: gpus aren't really cm model either .. parallella, though...
2014-08-27T19:36:28Z shka: pjb: sorry phone
2014-08-27T19:36:38Z pjb: TMI
2014-08-27T19:36:58Z shka: basicly, why should i use endp over null when checking for list end?
2014-08-27T19:37:13Z pjb: In general, I'd say yes.
2014-08-27T19:37:25Z oGMo: shka: readability?
2014-08-27T19:37:56Z pjb: in particular, if you use null, you can have either an error (like endp, but with an error message more confusing), or get an infinite loop, when processing a dotted-list.
2014-08-27T19:38:10Z faheem: how is SICL looking so far?
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2014-08-27T19:38:16Z faheem: can't find much about it
2014-08-27T19:38:17Z oGMo: ah and endp is stricter than null
2014-08-27T19:38:30Z pjb: faheem: it is "maintained" LOL
2014-08-27T19:38:39Z pjb: faheem: beach's working on it.
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2014-08-27T19:40:47Z faheem: pjb: looks like a 1 person project
2014-08-27T19:41:17Z pjb: Anytime, you can hire a 20-person team to help beach working on it.
2014-08-27T19:41:33Z faheem: So robert is beach, then.
2014-08-27T19:41:38Z pjb: t
2014-08-27T19:41:40Z |3b|: oGMo: dunno, they seem pretty close to me (from API level if not hardware)
2014-08-27T19:41:59Z |3b|: or at least enough overlap for *lisp or cmlisp to be useful
2014-08-27T19:42:21Z oGMo: |3b|: ah, i'll have to look at how those work again i guess
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2014-08-27T19:43:17Z shka: pjb: is it possible that using null over endp can hurt performance?
2014-08-27T19:43:36Z pjb: think about it!
2014-08-27T19:43:57Z oGMo: better, if it really actually matters, which is doubtful, profile it and see :p
2014-08-27T19:44:08Z pjb: your processors is a 3.9 GHz Intel with pipelines and megabytes of cache memory over three levels.
2014-08-27T19:44:31Z pjb: shka: so think very hard on the performance consequences of using endp vs. null.
2014-08-27T19:44:48Z shka: pjb: it is not about "practical" performance
2014-08-27T19:44:54Z shka: just theoretical
2014-08-27T19:45:19Z shka: and actually i'm using few years old intel atom right now :D
2014-08-27T19:45:21Z pjb: In theory, if you get an error message that's clear and descriptive, it gives you a better performance than if you have to puzzle over a bug for days.
2014-08-27T19:45:25Z oGMo: theoretical performance about microoptimizations is meaningless handwavery
2014-08-27T19:45:34Z shka: well, ok
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2014-08-27T19:46:53Z shka: so it is basicly null, but with better context for debugging
2014-08-27T19:46:58Z oGMo: CCL has better source information than SBCL, apparently, another minor advantage
2014-08-27T19:47:09Z pjb: shka: I already explained the difference yesterday…
2014-08-27T19:47:23Z oGMo: shka: read the hyperspec
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2014-08-27T19:47:46Z shka: pjb: sorry, i don't read channel 24 hours/day
2014-08-27T19:47:55Z shka: oGMo: ok, that is actually a vaild point
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2014-08-27T19:48:19Z pjb: shka: you were there, I explained it to you!
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2014-08-27T19:48:56Z faheem: SCBL is pretty fast, but I'
2014-08-27T19:49:25Z faheem: SBCL is pretty fast, but I've had problems with garbage collection. From a scientific programming POV that could be a problem.
2014-08-27T19:50:23Z jasom: faheem: define "problems with garbage collection"
2014-08-27T19:50:54Z faheem: jasom: I filed a couple of bugs. I could dig them out, with some difficulty, if anyone cares.
2014-08-27T19:51:08Z oGMo: faheem: i've had stability issues there recently myself, but i haven't tried the most recent releases
2014-08-27T19:51:17Z jasom: faheem: no, if you've filed them at least the devs know.
2014-08-27T19:51:22Z jasom: and I can search myself
2014-08-27T19:51:52Z shka: pjb: logs or it didn't happend
2014-08-27T19:52:07Z faheem: I found it a little worrying that the attitude seems to be kind of like papering over them, rather than trying to discover the root cause. i.e. changing things till the symptoms went away.
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2014-08-27T19:53:00Z faheem: if anyone cares, i would have them in my records, anyway.
2014-08-27T19:53:07Z faheem: email at least
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2014-08-27T19:54:11Z faheem: CCL works very well there. It has an exact garbage collection thingy. Not sure what the technical terms are.
2014-08-27T19:55:16Z jasom: faheem: sbcl has a precise collector on non-x86 targets, but I'm guessing the bugs aren't directly in the GC, but rather in how runtime code interacts with the gc (e.g. not pinning things correctly)
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2014-08-27T19:55:57Z faheem: jasom: i've no idea. i had them on i386, which i no longer run
2014-08-27T19:56:33Z faheem: i recall i was not able to reproduce them on amd64
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2014-08-27T19:57:22Z faheem: i think the problem was that the garbage was not collected under certain circumstances, even if you issued a direct command to do so.
2014-08-27T19:57:37Z faheem: but this only happened for relatively large objects.
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2014-08-27T19:58:08Z faheem: and often is seemed the garbage was being collected really slowly. so it couldn't keep up.
2014-08-27T19:58:22Z faheem: i haven't tested with recent releases, i think was a couple of years ago.
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2014-08-27T19:58:41Z jasom: faheem: oh, that's probably because it doesn't know if values on the stack are pointers or not
2014-08-27T19:58:47Z jasom: which is specific to x86 targets
2014-08-27T19:58:58Z faheem: jasom: not amd64, then?
2014-08-27T19:59:10Z jasom: amd64 keeps that, though it would be fairly trivial to change it
2014-08-27T19:59:23Z jasom: the fact that pointers are twice as large makes the odds of a random integer being a pointer much lower
2014-08-27T19:59:48Z jasom: ARM has the same number of GPRs as amd64 and takes a significant performance hit for using split stacks
2014-08-27T19:59:55Z |3b|: amd64 has the same problem on sbcl, but it is easier to have enough address space to avoid it
2014-08-27T19:59:56Z jasom: Power has 2x as many GPRs so is fine with it
2014-08-27T19:59:57Z faheem: jasom: yes, i got the impression at the time that the reason the bug wasn't showing up was because there was a larger space.
2014-08-27T20:00:10Z faheem: though i didn't understand the issues involved.
2014-08-27T20:00:19Z jasom: faheem: the real fix is to use 2 stacks; one for things that aren't pointers and one for things that are
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2014-08-27T20:00:32Z faheem: anyway, this is not the kind of thing you want to have to deal with in performance computing
2014-08-27T20:00:44Z faheem: jasom: and this is not currently done?
2014-08-27T20:01:01Z faheem: jasom: do you use CL for heavy numerical work?
2014-08-27T20:01:08Z jasom: but that takes 2 more registers (stack and frame pointer for second stack) and the current implementation also has fixed register allocations for lisp objects and machine immediates
2014-08-27T20:01:31Z jasom: which causes significant register pressure on targets with <= 16 GPRs
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2014-08-27T20:01:54Z faheem: jasom: I don't know what most of this means. What is a GPR?
2014-08-27T20:02:03Z jasom: faheem: General Purpose Register
2014-08-27T20:02:15Z faheem: jasom: ok
2014-08-27T20:02:34Z jasom: sparc and power and mips have a lot of them.  ARM and amd64 have a medim amount, x86 has very few
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2014-08-27T20:02:55Z jasom: the way that sbcl's precise GC works has a significant performance impact on targets with not very many GPRs
2014-08-27T20:03:04Z Adlai: ... why can't the garbage collector check program text around the instruction pointer to determine whether stack values are pointers?
2014-08-27T20:03:11Z rme: arm64 actually has 32 (well, 31) registers.
2014-08-27T20:03:24Z Xach: i liked rme's analogy. "if  is a king-sized bed, x86 is a bunk on a submarine"
2014-08-27T20:03:26Z Adlai: i realize that for some languages that's infeasible, but CL seems to keep more metadata about...
2014-08-27T20:03:33Z |3b|: Adlai: feel free to rewrite it to do so :)
2014-08-27T20:03:34Z jasom: Adlai: huh?
2014-08-27T20:03:41Z Adlai: |3b|: someday, someday...
2014-08-27T20:04:05Z jasom: Adlai: it would be possible to tag the stack in some manner when pushing values onto it, and then the GC could read that when generating the root set
2014-08-27T20:04:06Z AeroNotix: Is SBCL's GC implemented in CL?
2014-08-27T20:04:10Z jasom: that would free up 2 registers
2014-08-27T20:04:11Z rme: But you said amd64, didn't you.  Never mind.
2014-08-27T20:04:11Z jasom: AeroNotix: C
2014-08-27T20:04:15Z AeroNotix: jasom: ACK
2014-08-27T20:04:21Z |3b|: from what i understand, keeping metadata about what is in which register/stack location at a given code location is one of the options for improving the situation... it also isn't a trivial task
2014-08-27T20:04:49Z jasom: AeroNotix: implementing GC in lisp is very rare, as you need to avoid any code which could allocate.
2014-08-27T20:04:56Z faheem: jasom: interesting. so, from a lay standpoint, Joe Average Programmer would experience significantly fewer issues on amd64 with the SBCL garbage collector?
2014-08-27T20:05:00Z jasom: There was a scheme that did it
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2014-08-27T20:05:50Z AeroNotix: jasom: that makes sense
2014-08-27T20:05:51Z jasom: faheem: well, it's still using the same as on x86 (but ARM which has the same number of GPRs uses the precise one, so it's just a matter of grunt work to get it working; this hasn't been done since it will negatively impact performance when *not* GCing)
2014-08-27T20:06:30Z faheem: jasom: right, but it is less likely to crash or whatever on amd64?
2014-08-27T20:06:31Z jasom: faheem: however, you will run into fewer issues on amd64 since you are much less likely to have immediate integer values which also happen to point into the lisp heap.
2014-08-27T20:06:58Z jasom: also the fact that you have way more address space means you can run with a larger heap so OOM is less likely even if you do leak memory
2014-08-27T20:07:04Z faheem: and why are there different GCs on different archs? Historical accident? Choice based on the platform?
2014-08-27T20:07:25Z jasom: faheem: choice based on platform.  x86 did not have enough registers to use the precise one.  amd64 keeps that version for historical reasons.
2014-08-27T20:07:32Z faheem: jasom: ok, well good to know.
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2014-08-27T20:08:03Z faheem: jasom: but doesn't CCL use a precise GC on i386?
2014-08-27T20:08:35Z |3b|: different compiler designs, different developers
2014-08-27T20:08:44Z |3b|: different priorities
2014-08-27T20:08:44Z jasom: faheem: it probably uses a completely different GC technique, and possibly one that sbcl can't use.  If you (for example) don't ever store unboxed integers on the stack, it's a non-issue
2014-08-27T20:09:06Z faheem: jasom: i see.
2014-08-27T20:09:13Z jasom: sbcl does store unboxed integers on the stack, which speeds up code that has function calls involving machine-word sized integers.
2014-08-27T20:09:40Z jasom: how your GC is implemented is very tightly coupled with how your compiler generates code.
2014-08-27T20:09:43Z faheem: jasom: which is potentially a lot of function calls, I suppose
2014-08-27T20:09:58Z |3b|: particularly for high-performance numerical computation :p
2014-08-27T20:10:03Z faheem: jasom: ok. so the implementation and the GC are tied together
2014-08-27T20:10:18Z faheem: that makes sense.
2014-08-27T20:10:55Z faheem: I did remember reading something about a precise collector for SBCL. Not sure what the context was.
2014-08-27T20:10:58Z jasom: sbcl is strongly biased towards speeding up code that CONSes rarely.
2014-08-27T20:10:59Z |3b| suspects there is some weakness in SBCL's stack handling that makes it worse, but doesn't have the knowledge/time to look into it :/
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2014-08-27T20:11:07Z rme: http://www.clozure.com/~rme/ilc09-slides.pdf and http://www.clozure.com/~rme/threads-in-ccl.pdf if anyone cares to read a little about how CCL does things.
2014-08-27T20:11:24Z faheem: rme: hi
2014-08-27T20:12:06Z faheem: rme: are you familar with the SBCL GC?
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2014-08-27T20:13:13Z rme: Not really.  Last I knew, it scanned the stack conservatively on x86.  From recent messages in the channel, it seems that it still does that.
2014-08-27T20:13:52Z faheem: rme: ok
2014-08-27T20:14:06Z jasom: rme: and on all other targets it maintains 2 stacks, one of which holds only tagged values, and the other of which contains no lisp objects.
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2014-08-27T20:14:48Z faheem: is it fair to say that execution speed and reliable fast GC are to some extent incompatible? Or at any rate, not very compatible?
2014-08-27T20:14:54Z francogrex:  /join ##java
2014-08-27T20:14:57Z jasom: rme: the implementation is actually otherwise identical
2014-08-27T20:15:12Z jasom: faheem: no
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2014-08-27T20:15:20Z jasom: faheem: and it depends on what you mean by "fast GC"
2014-08-27T20:15:34Z |3b|: and how much budget you have
2014-08-27T20:15:59Z faheem: jasom: garbage collects unused memory quickly
2014-08-27T20:16:15Z jasom: For numeric stuff, it's fairly easy to have darn fast GCs (depending on the size of your working set anyway), since you don't care at all about latency, just throughput.
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2014-08-27T20:16:26Z jasom: Most real-world GCs make latency/throughput tradeoffs though.
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2014-08-27T20:16:49Z faheem: jasom: is this tunable within a given GC?
2014-08-27T20:16:50Z oGMo: faheem: except in special cases, GCs are generally faster than manual management
2014-08-27T20:17:00Z faheem: oGMo: sure
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2014-08-27T20:17:28Z jasom: faheem: in most implementations, not without recompiling.
2014-08-27T20:17:32Z faheem: jasom: you said SBCL has a precise collector even on i386?
2014-08-27T20:17:40Z oGMo: both sbcl and ccl are pretty fast, but you could do mostly-slab-allocation and an incremental realtime collector and do just about anything you want
2014-08-27T20:17:40Z jasom: faheem: no.
2014-08-27T20:17:41Z faheem: jasom: ok
2014-08-27T20:18:02Z faheem: oGMo: mostly-slab-allocation?
2014-08-27T20:18:14Z oGMo: faheem: slab-allocate as much as would make sense
2014-08-27T20:18:26Z jasom: faheem: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slab_allocation
2014-08-27T20:18:27Z faheem: jasom: so, not precise on i386. or on amd64?
2014-08-27T20:18:34Z faheem: jasom: thanks
2014-08-27T20:18:48Z |3b|: sbcl GC is not precise on i386, not precise on amd64
2014-08-27T20:19:07Z jasom: faheem: correct; some grunt-work would make amd64 precise, but the easiest path to that would probably make non-consing code significantly slower.
2014-08-27T20:19:14Z |3b|: amd64 port was based on x86 port, so inherited that feature despite having more registers
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2014-08-27T20:19:24Z jasom: anyway gtg
2014-08-27T20:19:51Z faheem: jasom: thanks!
2014-08-27T20:20:32Z faheem: the slab allocation thing looks like a good technique, assuming one has bunches of objects which look similar to each other. but its a bit manual.
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2014-08-27T20:20:57Z |3b|: yeah, not allocating can be a good strategy with GC or manual allocation, when it works
2014-08-27T20:21:16Z oGMo: hard to beat static usage .. except in ease of development ;)
2014-08-27T20:21:37Z faheem: might be worth it when speed is paramount.
2014-08-27T20:21:51Z faheem: thanks, i'll remember that term
2014-08-27T20:21:57Z oGMo: if and when and after you've shown it to be such :P
2014-08-27T20:22:01Z |3b|: right, speed and latency are the main reasons
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2014-08-27T20:22:17Z faheem: oGMo: such? meaning fast?
2014-08-27T20:22:21Z |3b|: but like most optimizations, profile first and make sure it is actually valid
2014-08-27T20:22:34Z faheem: |3b|: agreed, :-)
2014-08-27T20:22:40Z oGMo: faheem: no, i mean if you actually have a case you've shown needs static allocation
2014-08-27T20:22:54Z faheem: oGMo: oh, Ok.
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2014-08-27T20:34:33Z dim: I need help understanding an hunchentoot behavior: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143528
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2014-08-27T20:37:10Z PuercoPop: If due to a network failure the quicklist distribution is in an inconsistent state how do I force it to install the lastest one?
2014-08-27T20:37:29Z dim: basically returning the content as octets is fine (but very slow), and using hunchentoot:send-headers then write-sequence on the resulting stream fails with the out stream being NIL, and I don't get why
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2014-08-27T20:39:39Z mood: dim: It reports that error even though you've wrapped it in (when out ...) ?
2014-08-27T20:39:47Z dim: yes
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2014-08-27T20:45:35Z dim: I don't pretend I will understand anything here
2014-08-27T20:45:42Z |3b|: what is second on backtrace?
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2014-08-27T20:47:14Z dim: 1: (HUNCHENTOOT:HANDLE-STATIC-FILE #P"/Users/dim/dev/pgcharts/web/highcharts/js/modules/exporting.js" NIL)
2014-08-27T20:47:24Z dim: that also I can't understand
2014-08-27T20:47:39Z dim: I'm using trace to check that my functions are actually called and they are
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2014-08-27T20:51:49Z dim: aaaah, I think I understand, I did set a document-root
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2014-08-27T20:53:02Z dim: fixed.
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2014-08-27T20:54:26Z dim: that's why it did work here, somehow, I guess
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2014-08-27T21:32:30Z jasom: PuercoPop: (ql:update-dist "quicklisp") doesn't work?
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2014-08-27T21:47:24Z alimiracle: hi
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2014-08-27T21:49:32Z alimiracle: hi
2014-08-27T21:49:40Z Xach: PuercoPop: normally you don't need to do anything. everything should just work regardless of interruptions.
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2014-08-27T21:51:09Z alimiracle: hi
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2014-08-27T21:55:15Z alimiracle: hi
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2014-08-27T22:05:51Z alimiracle: hi
2014-08-27T22:06:36Z alimiracle: lisp or c
2014-08-27T22:06:45Z AeroNotix: +b
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2014-08-27T22:08:04Z wasamasa: lol
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2014-08-27T22:08:24Z wasamasa: he has little stamina
2014-08-27T22:08:24Z AeroNotix: YEAH WELL I LOVE LISP
2014-08-27T22:08:26Z AeroNotix: hahahahahaha
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2014-08-27T22:08:46Z wasamasa: or maybe we scared him away
2014-08-27T22:08:57Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: I'll attempt to get through the loss
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2014-08-27T22:09:08Z wooden: is there a way to declare and initialize a hash table in one form?  like in python it would be "mydict = {'a': 1}"
2014-08-27T22:09:14Z wooden: ^ in common lisp
2014-08-27T22:09:19Z wasamasa: meanwhile on #emacs
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2014-08-27T22:09:36Z wasamasa:  I'm new in emacs
2014-08-27T22:09:36Z wasamasa:  I love c
2014-08-27T22:09:47Z cite-reader: Is this a real person?
2014-08-27T22:09:51Z wasamasa: that should have settled the question, no?
2014-08-27T22:11:51Z AeroNotix: wooden: not in the standard library stuff
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2014-08-27T22:12:33Z wooden: AeroNotix: ok. thank you.
2014-08-27T22:12:39Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: I wonder how hard it would be to extend the reader to read in array and hashtable literals
2014-08-27T22:12:40Z AeroNotix: wooden: there's a library called alexandria which (imho) fills in some of the standard library gaps
2014-08-27T22:12:46Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: simple. It's been done
2014-08-27T22:13:01Z AeroNotix: wooden: there's a function which produces a hash table given an association list
2014-08-27T22:13:05Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: do you have a link to an example?
2014-08-27T22:13:09Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: hold on friend
2014-08-27T22:13:24Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: http://frank.kank.net/essays/hash.html
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2014-08-27T22:13:41Z AeroNotix: I'm sure this is available in a library form somewhere or another, I already know I used it once to play with
2014-08-27T22:13:52Z wasamasa: hmm
2014-08-27T22:14:06Z wasamasa can't remember one non-alexandria library filled with goodies
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2014-08-27T22:16:09Z AeroNotix: Sometimes I'm afraid to suggest alexandria in here, because I'm not certain of the prevailing opinion
2014-08-27T22:16:16Z AeroNotix: I find alexandria quite good
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2014-08-27T22:17:06Z wasamasa: mhh
2014-08-27T22:17:18Z wasamasa: you can scan over its contents in like thirty minutes which is nice
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2014-08-27T22:18:35Z AeroNotix: It'd be cool to have something like OCaml/Jane Street has with Core
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2014-08-27T22:19:04Z wasamasa: it doesn't seem to be in quickdocs.org
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2014-08-27T22:19:58Z resttime: any wayland bindings for common lisp?
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2014-08-27T22:20:20Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: Jane Street is a company which uses OCaml heavily and put out a really decent replacement for the standard library in OCaml called Core
2014-08-27T22:20:33Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: no, I meant the one I was looking for
2014-08-27T22:20:39Z AeroNotix: resttime: http://quickdocs.org/
2014-08-27T22:20:42Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: already heard about what Jane Street did to ocaml :P
2014-08-27T22:20:44Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: sorry, context is a beeeach
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2014-08-27T22:21:54Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: ah, found it: https://github.com/TBRSS/serapeum
2014-08-27T22:22:03Z AeroNotix accesses
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2014-08-27T22:22:39Z wasamasa: have originally planned to scour it for stuff I'd need for elisp, but didn't find much
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2014-08-27T22:24:06Z AeroNotix: oh they have a nice (dict) function
2014-08-27T22:24:21Z wasamasa: since it lacks lots of the types
2014-08-27T22:24:29Z faheem: speaking of libraries, do the libraries that are "registered" with quicklisp undergo any validation or checking?
2014-08-27T22:24:46Z AeroNotix: faheem: they compile on Xach's machine
2014-08-27T22:25:02Z AeroNotix: faheem: and they are tastful, afacit
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2014-08-27T22:25:15Z faheem: tastful?
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2014-08-27T22:26:00Z AeroNotix: faheem: yeah, intentionally used a vague word
2014-08-27T22:26:14Z AeroNotix: faheem: the process seems to work well for the lisp community
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2014-08-27T22:26:54Z resttime: awww nothing for wayland
2014-08-27T22:27:20Z AeroNotix: resttime: does wayland have a C library to use?
2014-08-27T22:27:20Z wasamasa: (op) maybe
2014-08-27T22:27:37Z wasamasa: since it looks like it provides the benefits of clojure's lambda literals
2014-08-27T22:27:40Z AeroNotix: resttime: cffi is incredibly easy to throw together some dead-simple bindings to an API
2014-08-27T22:27:51Z AeroNotix: (C* API(
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2014-08-27T22:27:53Z AeroNotix: )
2014-08-27T22:28:16Z resttime: yeah i guess i'll do that
2014-08-27T22:28:22Z resttime: wayland is pretty small itself
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2014-08-27T22:28:39Z resttime: the api that is
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2014-08-27T22:28:55Z wasamasa: resttime: do you plan to write a tiling window manager?
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2014-08-27T22:28:56Z oGMo: autowrap is even easier! ;)
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2014-08-27T22:29:14Z AeroNotix: oGMo: autowrap?
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2014-08-27T22:29:31Z oGMo: AeroNotix: https://github.com/rpav/cl-autowrap
2014-08-27T22:29:43Z AeroNotix: oGMo: ok thought it was this
2014-08-27T22:29:49Z AeroNotix: It has several problem
2014-08-27T22:29:51Z AeroNotix: problems
2014-08-27T22:29:59Z oGMo: most of the complicated stuff is for dealing with crappy C, and granted it's probably easier to use CFFI straight up if you just need a couple functions
2014-08-27T22:30:11Z oGMo: AeroNotix: i haven't seen any issues filed!
2014-08-27T22:30:14Z AeroNotix: It needs in-development versions of applications, his own application. I spent lots of time compiling stuff.
2014-08-27T22:30:24Z AeroNotix: I tried to use it ~two weeks ago
2014-08-27T22:31:03Z AeroNotix: https://github.com/rpav/c2ffi <- this thing
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2014-08-27T22:31:12Z oGMo: what were you trying to build?
2014-08-27T22:31:22Z AeroNotix: the correct llvm version
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2014-08-27T22:32:30Z oGMo: well you need to use llvm-3.4 or 3.5 .. i should link to the appropriate SVN checkout i guess, svn is a pain to deal with
2014-08-27T22:33:06Z AeroNotix: oGMo: and not all distros have those in the checkouts.
2014-08-27T22:33:06Z oGMo: most distros have a recent enough llvm though
2014-08-27T22:33:12Z AeroNotix: s/checkouts/repos/
2014-08-27T22:33:24Z AeroNotix: oGMo: I'll give it another go sometime soon
2014-08-27T22:33:30Z AeroNotix: because it's a very, very promising idea
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2014-08-27T22:34:50Z oGMo: it's a bit of a hassle, but then the users of your package don't it or even need a C compiler. it's probably not something you want to use for a few libc functions, but if you have a reasonable API .. well, it was worth the hassle to write, so ;)
2014-08-27T22:35:10Z oGMo: "... don't need it [c2ffi] ..."
2014-08-27T22:36:37Z AeroNotix: I'll definitely give it another go
2014-08-27T22:37:27Z oGMo: lemme know if you have issues, always happy to help
2014-08-27T22:37:58Z Blkt: does anyone know whether slime has an official IRC channel or not?
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2014-08-27T22:48:24Z AeroNotix: oGMo: appreciated !
2014-08-27T22:48:32Z AeroNotix: Blkt: ask here if you wish
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2014-08-27T22:57:43Z mistythelisper: hi
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2014-08-27T23:02:10Z AeroNotix: mistythelisper: Hey
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2014-08-27T23:07:55Z didi: Is there a way to declare a for LOOP rule which counts down but without a limit? For example, (loop for i from 0 do ...) but downwards.
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2014-08-27T23:08:49Z didi: Ah. `downfrom'.
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2014-08-27T23:10:52Z mistythelisper: trying out erc in emacs and it's really nice
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2014-08-27T23:29:33Z lowfyr: Hello #lisp
2014-08-27T23:31:28Z gregg45678: hey
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2014-08-28T00:23:43Z didi: Is there a way of making a displaced array which references non-continuous indexes? For example, I have an array of length 4 and I want a displaced array to it of length 2 referencing index 0 and 2.
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2014-08-28T00:27:11Z oGMo: i don't think so, although you could possibly fold it into a 2x2 (does that work?)
2014-08-28T00:27:13Z slyrus: so is it legit to import one's own symbols into :asdf ?
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2014-08-28T00:27:38Z oGMo: i make :package.asdf packages myself
2014-08-28T00:27:53Z oGMo: i think i've seen things import into asdf though, but that sounds like a terrible idea
2014-08-28T00:28:13Z slyrus: cl21 does it
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2014-08-28T00:29:13Z slyrus: I'm trying to figure out which is worse. asdf:load-system forms in my .asd file or importing symbols for custom component classes into the :asdf package
2014-08-28T00:29:47Z oGMo: the latter sounds like a _really_ bad idea
2014-08-28T00:30:31Z oGMo: but, why import and not explicitly reference them?
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2014-08-28T00:32:06Z didi: oGMo: Hum. Maybe? I've being using a simple array as a matrix, hence my question. My array is column major, so selecting rows demand some calculations.
2014-08-28T00:32:39Z oGMo: didi: y*w+x? :P
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2014-08-28T00:32:46Z didi: Hehe, right.
2014-08-28T00:33:00Z didi: But I mean when I want to mutate a whole row, for example.
2014-08-28T00:33:12Z oGMo: or the other .. also column major is terrible :(
2014-08-28T00:33:32Z oGMo: transpose, mutate, transpose? ;)
2014-08-28T00:33:50Z slyrus: oGMo: if I explicitly reference the package, the package has to be loaded when it parses the defsystem form. If not, it will intern the symbol and then figure it out later, after it's had a chance to load the defsystem-depends-on systems (which, at least in the case of cl21, can import symbols into ASDF such that they are then properly resolved when the component is processed).
2014-08-28T00:34:19Z oGMo: slyrus: ah, right, i always put prereqs in an eval-when at the top ;/
2014-08-28T00:34:47Z slyrus: yeah, that's what I've been doing. I was wondering if defsystem-depends-on was a cleaner way to do that -- leading to this particularly question.
2014-08-28T00:34:53Z pillton: DEFSYSTEM-DEPENDS-ON is broken for that reason. I think the way around it is to make your custom ASDF components keywords.
2014-08-28T00:35:30Z oGMo: i thought keywords were reserved
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2014-08-28T00:38:31Z oGMo: really it'd be nice if there was something like (defsystem-file ...) that let you specify preloads, a custom package, etc
2014-08-28T00:38:52Z slyrus: \
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2014-08-28T00:40:14Z didi: oGMo: hummmm. Not a bad idea. Tho my first idea was to pass rows and columns around as displaced arrays. Columns work nicely. Rows, not so much.
2014-08-28T00:40:51Z oGMo: didi: i wasn't really serious, that would likely kill performance, unless it really doesn't matter. you could extract rows at least for less of a hit
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2014-08-28T00:42:00Z oGMo: if you're only doing very tiny and/or fixed-size arrays i'm not sure that it matters though
2014-08-28T00:42:02Z didi: oGMo: Well, I was trying to use displaced arrays because I wanted to combine performance and abstraction.
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2014-08-28T00:42:43Z oGMo: didi: sure. you could define your own accessor though, which you probably should anyway
2014-08-28T00:43:23Z oGMo: with such you could even support your own form of displacement that included a multiplier
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2014-08-28T00:43:29Z didi: oGMo: Well, sure. That's why I was trying to write a (row ...) function.
2014-08-28T00:44:03Z oGMo: didi: well if you're doing that then don't even slice up the array, just make a new my-displaced-array class that includes a multiplier and specialize access on it
2014-08-28T00:44:03Z didi: Hum.
2014-08-28T00:44:06Z jasom: Is there a function like vector-push-extend that inserts to the middle of a vector?
2014-08-28T00:44:39Z oGMo: jasom: no, you need something like ropes
2014-08-28T00:45:07Z jasom: oGMo: I'll just write a super-slow one then that vector-pops O(n) times.
2014-08-28T00:45:24Z jasom: In this case n might be as large as 1000, but that would be unusual
2014-08-28T00:45:35Z jasom: or maybe even I could use subseq and make a new vector
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2014-08-28T00:46:42Z oGMo: :P
2014-08-28T00:46:44Z didi: oGMo: Thank you. I will think about it.
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2014-08-28T01:13:53Z Xach: jasom: replace is a terse way to move things down.
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2014-08-28T01:14:17Z Xach: as you don't care about performance, it may be the shortest way to express it.
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2014-08-28T01:40:38Z tolk: hallo. i would like to know if there is a way in CL to construct an array using the loop macro, just like you can "collect" elements into a list (but i want an array, not a list).
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2014-08-28T01:42:29Z didi: oGMo: One unfortunate thing about not being able to use displaced arrays is I can't use my generic nrotate function because one of the operations I have to do is rotate rows.
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2014-08-28T01:54:21Z HeilHit1er: testing
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2014-08-28T02:15:44Z tolk: hallo. i would like to know if there is a way in CL to construct an array using the loop macro, just like you can "collect" elements into a list (but i want an array, not a list).
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2014-08-28T02:16:47Z Bike: usually you make the array beforehand (with make-array) and populate it in a loop.
2014-08-28T02:18:40Z tolk: i used (make-array ... :initial-contents (loop for ... collect ...))
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2014-08-28T02:19:31Z Bike: that's kind of indirect. i mean like (let ((array (make-array ...))) (loop ... (setf (aref array whatever) whatever-else)))
2014-08-28T02:20:36Z rme: map-into is sometimes handy
2014-08-28T02:21:28Z tolk: the problem with creating an array and then populating it is that now if I specify an element-type with some longish constructor, then the array will get created with dummy values are then immediately thrown away
2014-08-28T02:22:27Z Bike: I don't understand. You call make-array once, you get one array.
2014-08-28T02:25:59Z tolk: if i use (make-array 10000 :element-type 'my-big-type), does that call the my-big-type constructors for each element? i would like to avoid that
2014-08-28T02:26:28Z Bike: no. lisp does not have 'constructors' to call.
2014-08-28T02:26:43Z Bike: not for types, anyhow.
2014-08-28T02:27:30Z oGMo: and if you wanted to populate it with individual unique objects you'd have to do that after the fact anyway, or manually create your "throwaway" initializing list
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2014-08-28T02:27:43Z oGMo: so how bad it is is up to you
2014-08-28T02:28:00Z Bike: in any case new arrays are uninitialized "If initial-contents is not supplied, the consequences of later reading an uninitialized element of new-array are undefined unless either initial-element is supplied or displaced-to is non-nil."
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2014-08-28T02:29:57Z tolk: oh, i see
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2014-08-28T02:30:48Z tolk: so the 'element-type' just specifies the type but doesn't initialize any data in the array, is that right?
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2014-08-28T02:31:07Z Bike: yep
2014-08-28T02:31:14Z tolk: great
2014-08-28T02:31:22Z tolk: so no efficienty loss then
2014-08-28T02:31:24Z tolk: thanks
2014-08-28T02:31:49Z Bike: element-type is an efficiency thing, like, if you specify (unsigned-byte 32) your implementation might pack in untagged fixnums, and leave the tags on the array itself.
2014-08-28T02:33:10Z tolk: so i can see 'element-type' as just creating enough space for all elements of that type to fit in, regardless of what junk might be there?
2014-08-28T02:33:24Z Bike: you could.
2014-08-28T02:33:38Z Bike: that's probably true even if you don't specify an element-type, though.
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2014-08-28T02:34:19Z tolk: but how? if i do (make-array 1000) without specifying the element type, then how does it know how much space to allocate?
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2014-08-28T02:35:03Z Bike: it allocates space for a t, that is, any object.
2014-08-28T02:35:20Z Bike: on most architectures, that's probably going to mean a pointer along with a tag.
2014-08-28T02:35:23Z tolk: oooh. so it's all pointers (or something like that), then
2014-08-28T02:35:24Z Bike: dynamic typing, y'know
2014-08-28T02:35:28Z tolk: yeah, i see
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2014-08-28T02:36:01Z tolk: heheh good to know : )
2014-08-28T02:37:39Z tolk: many thanks
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2014-08-28T02:40:32Z Zhivago: I'd suggest thinking of it as a 'word with a tag'.
2014-08-28T02:40:53Z Zhivago: The tag of which can cause the word to be interpreted as a pointer.
2014-08-28T02:41:19Z Zhivago: Or as one of the other common immediate representations -- e.g., fixnum, base-car, etc.
2014-08-28T02:41:25Z Zhivago: er, char.
2014-08-28T02:41:51Z tolk: might an array's space get better optimized for ":element-type 'fixnum" perhaps?
2014-08-28T02:41:54Z Zhivago: Or as a type specialized pointer, such as pointer-to-cons.
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2014-08-28T02:42:25Z Bike: tolk: might. you can use upgraded-array-element-type to check, sorta.
2014-08-28T02:42:32Z Zhivago: It might avoid the tag normalization cost, but is unlikely to change the size.
2014-08-28T02:42:34Z Bike: if (u-a-e-t your-type) is T, it's probably not optimized.
2014-08-28T02:43:01Z tolk: whoa, i didn't know that one
2014-08-28T02:43:06Z tolk: cool
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2014-08-28T03:16:12Z pjb: How can I set swank special bindings (eg. *print-length*) while running (ie. with a sldb window open)?
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2014-08-28T03:24:49Z pjb: Ok, I can set the usual swank bindings variables, and they're taken into account on the next slime command.  Good.
2014-08-28T03:24:55Z pjb: Thank myself.
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2014-08-28T04:53:15Z drmeister: Does anyone do development with Qt?  In Common Lisp or not.   How does it compare to WxWidgets?  I'm familiar with WxWidgets and I'm interested in exposing one of them within my Common Lisp environment.
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2014-08-28T04:55:29Z pillton: I use Qt via CommonQt. I haven't used WxWidgets so I can't offer an opinion.
2014-08-28T05:00:57Z drmeister: Do you need to use QtCreator or qmake or any of those Qt specific tools?
2014-08-28T05:02:19Z pillton: You can use them. My GUIs are very simple so I just use a mini language for layout.
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2014-08-28T05:06:15Z drmeister: I'm just reading CommonQt.  stassats developed that - I'd like to help him with that.
2014-08-28T05:06:27Z drmeister: What are all the #_xxx symbols?
2014-08-28T05:07:08Z pillton: See "Calling instance methods" on the CommonQt home page.
2014-08-28T05:07:23Z Bike: #_ is a reader macro, they're not normal symbols, at least
2014-08-28T05:07:25Z drmeister: It's a reader macro - I see.
2014-08-28T05:09:31Z drmeister: That begs the question - why a reader macro?
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2014-08-28T05:11:37Z pillton: I guess it has something to do with the MetaObject interface that Qt has.
2014-08-28T05:11:46Z pillton: That or SmokeQt.
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2014-08-28T05:14:00Z drmeister: I'm reading - Smoke - what witchcraft is this?  Questions, questions, questions.
2014-08-28T05:14:58Z drmeister: Found it. https://techbase.kde.org/Development/Languages/Smoke/API_Documentation#What_is_Smoke.3F
2014-08-28T05:16:06Z drmeister: Wow, what people get up to when they don't have the right tools.
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2014-08-28T05:17:23Z slyrus: yes, and our formerly-own froydnj is now in charge of XPCOM at mozilla. crazy.
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2014-08-28T05:19:15Z drmeister: slyrus: froydnj?  Is that a nickname?
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2014-08-28T05:21:43Z pillton: I filed SmokeQt and the MetaObject stuff under Greenspun's 10th rule.
2014-08-28T05:22:12Z pillton needs to buy a bigger cabinet. 
2014-08-28T05:22:32Z slyrus: drmeister: Nathan Froyd, a lisp hacker who used to hang out here
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2014-08-28T05:23:24Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-08-28T05:23:33Z drmeister: Hello beach.
2014-08-28T05:23:57Z slyrus: morning beach
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2014-08-28T05:24:18Z beach: drmeister: How is your project going?  Still with the lawyers?
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2014-08-28T05:24:35Z beach: slyrus: Hey.  You missed a small but nice ILC.
2014-08-28T05:24:46Z slyrus: yeah, sounded nice. sorry to have missed it!
2014-08-28T05:25:05Z beach: slyrus: London in 2015?
2014-08-28T05:25:14Z drmeister: Yes, I was asked some questions a couple of days ago about taint from other open source projects - I'm guessing that they are working on it.
2014-08-28T05:25:52Z beach: drmeister: Yeah, I read about that.  Hope it goes well.
2014-08-28T05:26:33Z drmeister: The project is going well.   I got the Memory Pool System garbage collector to work and it is as fast as Boehm at the moment (hopefully we'll be able to improve that).   I also replaced C++ dynamic_cast with a much faster version thanks to the whole-program analysis capabilities of my static analyzer.
2014-08-28T05:26:42Z drmeister: That gave me a 25% speed-up.
2014-08-28T05:27:15Z beach: Great!
2014-08-28T05:27:25Z drmeister: I'm working on getting ASDF working and improving the debugging experience.
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2014-08-28T05:35:45Z slyrus: beach: sounds like a good idea! dates set?
2014-08-28T05:36:01Z beach: slyrus: Probably, but they are not official, and I don't know them.
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2014-08-28T05:36:53Z beach: Question a bit off topic: Now that processors have out-of-order execution, register renaming, and speculative execution, is it still important for a compiler to do instruction scheduling to avoid pipeline stalls?
2014-08-28T05:37:29Z beach: Or, perhaps there is a better channel for such questions.  If so, I would like to know.
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2014-08-28T05:40:22Z drmeister: beach: The #llvm channel on irc.oftc.net contains a lot of discussion of that nature.
2014-08-28T05:40:54Z beach: drmeister: Excellent!  Thanks!
2014-08-28T05:41:18Z beach: I didn't know about oftc.
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2014-08-28T05:56:29Z slyrus: drmeister: did you ever check out my chemicl library? i also have a nascent chemical -> IUPAC name library called nominater I've (occasionally) been working on
2014-08-28T05:58:05Z drmeister: slyrus: I did.   I've implemented a SMILES parser as well.
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2014-08-28T05:59:30Z slyrus: finishing (fsvo finishing) the 2d structure drawing code would be a nice thing
2014-08-28T05:59:49Z drmeister: That's a tricky problem.  How would you do it?
2014-08-28T05:59:53Z slyrus: lately I've been punting and falling back to using CDK via ABCL for most of what i need
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2014-08-28T06:00:43Z drmeister: 2D molecules is more artwork and aesthetics than science.
2014-08-28T06:01:20Z slyrus: starting with the approach from clark et al 2006
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2014-08-28T06:01:41Z slyrus: agreed. more art than science, but even art was one of the things that lisp was supposed to good at :)
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2014-08-28T06:02:52Z drmeister: 3D structures are what I use for research and SMILES is not adequate for that.   I sketch annotated molecular fragments into Chemdraw and parse the Chemdraw XML output and then using a high level description of the fragments put them together into small, chemically reasonable molecules.   Then I conformationally search the sh*t out of them.
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2014-08-28T06:03:07Z slyrus: hmm... looks like the chemicl-draw code (with the 2d drawing stuff) never made it over to github :(
2014-08-28T06:03:43Z slyrus: what's wrong with SMILES for that? it may not be adequate, but at least it gets the connectivity right, no?
2014-08-28T06:04:12Z drmeister: It's too slow - and I work with molecular fragments that we put together in different ways.  Molecular building blocks.
2014-08-28T06:04:47Z slyrus: I'm still confused where SMILES breaks down. surely you can depict the fragments as SMILES stings and put them together.
2014-08-28T06:05:02Z slyrus: strings that is
2014-08-28T06:05:04Z drmeister: I do use SMILES for odds and ends.    I also use SMARTS, it's a molecular pattern recognition language styled after SMILES.
2014-08-28T06:05:09Z slyrus: right
2014-08-28T06:05:30Z drmeister: It's easier to draw them in Chemdraw or Chemdoodle.
2014-08-28T06:08:47Z slyrus: I can see that. I've been starting with SMIlLES strings of markush-like things and then enumerating them programatically which works for much of what I need. the combination of ABCL and CDK is pretty nice.
2014-08-28T06:08:59Z drmeister: What I'm working on is a language for putting molecules together faster.  Describe fragments with names and rules for how they bond together and then rapidly mutate, build and evaluate different strings of names.
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2014-08-28T06:09:27Z slyrus: cute
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2014-08-28T06:09:52Z drmeister: SMILES is great for small molecules ~500 Daltons.   We make things from 2,000 to 10,000 Daltons.  Intermediate between small molecules and proteins.
2014-08-28T06:10:32Z drmeister: SMILES is also flawed.   It's what happens when chemists develop codes.
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2014-08-28T06:10:55Z slyrus: not sure if it's relevant, but have you checked out chuckles/chortles for polymeric stuff?
2014-08-28T06:10:57Z drmeister: @ vs @@? Wtf?
2014-08-28T06:11:01Z slyrus: heh
2014-08-28T06:11:25Z slyrus: it's better than the XML description of a compound that a naive technologist might come up with :)
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2014-08-28T06:12:09Z slyrus: I find the combination of SMILES and InChI to be pretty nice. Adding IUPAC names and good 2-d structures to those would be great.
2014-08-28T06:12:21Z slyrus: I'm not so worried about big hairy macrocycles and what not
2014-08-28T06:12:49Z drmeister: Yeah, I need something like Chuckles, but the ends and chemical modifications of our molecules are much, much more complex than what they illustrate.
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2014-08-28T06:13:42Z drmeister: Our monomers are cyclic, contain at least two stereocenters, carry a side-chain and are connected to each other through pairs of bonds.
2014-08-28T06:13:44Z drmeister: http://astro.temple.edu/~meister/Schafmeister_group_website/Research.html
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2014-08-28T06:14:22Z drmeister: slyrus: What is your background?
2014-08-28T06:14:27Z drmeister: What do you do?
2014-08-28T06:15:14Z slyrus: I'm a reformed computational biologist and now run a small company developing new drugs for treating breast cancer
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2014-08-28T06:15:46Z slyrus: http://olemapharma.com/
2014-08-28T06:16:04Z slyrus: website is purposely pretty light on details...
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2014-08-28T06:16:54Z drmeister: Got it.
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2014-08-28T06:17:22Z drmeister: We have similar interests.
2014-08-28T06:18:39Z drmeister: We are synthesizing large libraries of multicomponent macromolecules to wrap around and bind proteins as antibodies do to target protein-protein interactions.
2014-08-28T06:18:41Z slyrus: except you develop big molecules that work on small molecules and I'm working on small molecules that work on proteins, but, yeah :)
2014-08-28T06:18:52Z slyrus: oh, and proteins too, I guess :)
2014-08-28T06:19:01Z drmeister: We are also developing big molecules that target proteins.
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2014-08-28T06:19:23Z slyrus: neat stuff!
2014-08-28T06:19:37Z drmeister: What is your interest in Common Lisp?
2014-08-28T06:20:31Z slyrus: one needs to compute on various things. why use anything else? :)
2014-08-28T06:20:41Z drmeister: Of course.
2014-08-28T06:21:03Z drmeister: You are close to UCSF.  Do you know Robert Stroud or Jim Wells?
2014-08-28T06:21:43Z slyrus: so the bis-peptides avoid being chewed up by proteases?
2014-08-28T06:21:52Z slyrus: by name and reputation, of course
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2014-08-28T06:22:18Z drmeister: They are invulnerable to proteases.   They are alien technology.
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2014-08-28T06:22:33Z slyrus: my colleagues from UCSF know them well, but my academic background is more on the other side of the bay at UC Berkeley.
2014-08-28T06:22:40Z drmeister: I did my PhD with Bob, Jim was on my thesis committee.
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2014-08-28T06:23:20Z slyrus: nice
2014-08-28T06:23:23Z slyrus: at UCSF?
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2014-08-28T06:24:14Z drmeister: Yes, before it moved to Mission Bay.
2014-08-28T06:24:16Z slyrus: ah, there you are
2014-08-28T06:25:14Z slyrus: wow. Bob's been at this a while :)
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2014-08-28T06:38:15Z drmeister: Yeah, he solved one of the first X-ray structures of trypsin.   He's had a long and interesting career.
2014-08-28T06:40:25Z nydel: hello lispfolk
2014-08-28T06:41:26Z slyrus: drmeister: it's getting late here, but I look forward to talking more lisp/chemistry stuff one of these days!
2014-08-28T06:42:28Z drmeister: Sure, it's late here on the East Coast as well.  I better get to bed.  Cheers.
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2014-08-28T06:45:42Z nydel: reading logs from freenode#lisp 3-4 years ago, can't believe the ratio of my query stupidity to this community's kindness & eagerness to help an idiot to self-educate. i'm sending you all flowers or cars or something
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2014-08-28T08:19:44Z Guest15680: Any interpreter must be used
2014-08-28T08:20:06Z Guest15680: hi Im new in lisp
2014-08-28T08:20:09Z Guest15680: Any interpreter must be used
2014-08-28T08:20:20Z AeroNotix: That's great news.
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2014-08-28T08:45:03Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: is that this ali guy from baghdad again?
2014-08-28T08:45:15Z AeroNotix: probably
2014-08-28T08:45:38Z wasamasa: apparently it is
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2014-08-28T08:46:09Z AeroNotix: I really don't understand what "Any interpreter must be used" could mean
2014-08-28T08:46:11Z AeroNotix: was it a question?
2014-08-28T08:46:19Z wasamasa: I think it was a paste
2014-08-28T08:46:26Z AeroNotix: Like some bastardization of "Which interpreter should I use?"
2014-08-28T08:46:29Z H4ns: it is part of the assignment i guess.
2014-08-28T08:47:01Z wasamasa: ooh
2014-08-28T08:47:05Z wasamasa: yeah, that might make sense
2014-08-28T08:47:10Z White_Flame: in some of these cases, I presume it's a foreign language interpreter
2014-08-28T08:47:12Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: which?
2014-08-28T08:47:20Z wasamasa: AeroNotix:  it is part of the assignment i guess.
2014-08-28T08:47:25Z AeroNotix: What assignment?
2014-08-28T08:47:45Z AeroNotix: or he wanted to use an implementation called `Any`
2014-08-28T08:48:02Z White_Flame: what assignment?  setf, of course
2014-08-28T08:48:07Z H4ns: stoned student recognizes that he's got to turn in his lisp assignment to pass the course tomorrow morning.
2014-08-28T08:48:24Z H4ns: it's a thing.
2014-08-28T08:48:33Z AeroNotix: I always like to think that Lisp wouldn't be that much of a deal to write high
2014-08-28T08:49:32Z wasamasa: or maybe not
2014-08-28T08:49:36Z wasamasa: [20:15:27]  I'm wne in lisp
2014-08-28T08:49:41Z wasamasa: [20:16:11]  i'm new in lisp
2014-08-28T08:50:06Z joga: lisp is *the* language to write high
2014-08-28T08:50:13Z AeroNotix: joga: exactly
2014-08-28T08:50:22Z wasamasa: [20:36:11]  I'm new in lisp
2014-08-28T08:51:06Z wasamasa: practice makes perfect
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2014-08-28T08:56:00Z lamC: (define new-loc   (let ((n 0))     (lambda ()       (begin (set! n (+ n 1))              n)))) Every time I call (new-loc), it plus one. Why the (let ((n 0)) didn't work after the first call?
2014-08-28T08:56:10Z H4ns: lamC: paste.lisp.org please
2014-08-28T08:56:22Z H4ns: lamC: your code is not readable if you paste it here, in one line.
2014-08-28T08:56:40Z H4ns: lamC: also note that this channel is about common lisp.  #scheme is for scheme.
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2014-08-28T09:09:46Z dim: I was wondering about the begin, then saw #scheme, then only saw set! ;-)
2014-08-28T09:11:07Z dim: H4ns: the pgcharts project is putting to good use functions that could be in hunchentoot maybe: the routing, and the cacheing... are you interested into reading how they works from pgcharts code before talking about sending a patch or something?
2014-08-28T09:11:47Z H4ns: dim: if you send me some specific pointers, i'll try to have a look
2014-08-28T09:11:57Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgcharts/blob/master/src/utils/cache.lisp and https://github.com/dimitri/pgcharts/blob/master/src/resources.lisp and https://github.com/dimitri/pgcharts/blob/master/src/server.lisp are all you need to skim through to get an idea
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2014-08-28T09:12:58Z dim: server deals with the routing, resources handles serving static files either from file or from cache, and build the cache, and cache.lisp is an hunchentoot:handle-static-file like function (monkey patching the range handling)
2014-08-28T09:12:58Z H4ns: dim: i don't think i want a caching mechanism in hunchentoot
2014-08-28T09:13:05Z dim: fair enough
2014-08-28T09:13:18Z H4ns: dim: that is something which is better handled by a separate program.  i use varnish for that.
2014-08-28T09:13:40Z dim: oh well, the goal here is quite different
2014-08-28T09:14:16Z H4ns: dim: then maybe you'll have to explain the intention.
2014-08-28T09:14:17Z dim: my only goal is to be able to prepare a binary image containing the static resources, for shipping (in debian packages, RPM, whatever); so that /usr/bin/pgcharts (say) is all you need to use the app
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2014-08-28T09:14:48Z H4ns: dim: fair enough, but that's not something that hunchentoot is concerned with. :)
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2014-08-28T09:15:18Z dim: ok, I might then create a lib with that, as this code found its way into 3 of my apps already
2014-08-28T09:15:42Z dim: I'm happy not to spend time trying to cook up a patch you would refuse anyway...
2014-08-28T09:15:54Z dim: so, about the routing now? (the server.lisp link above)
2014-08-28T09:16:13Z dim: I did steal the code from another lib that won't quickload, btw
2014-08-28T09:16:23Z dim: (then of course I had to modify it)
2014-08-28T09:16:41Z H4ns: dim: sounds better to me.  for hunchentoot, what i'd probably want to accept would be a declarative way to specify routes, handlers and overall configurations.  i'd also like to see the ssl handling be improved, probably by removing the subclass based implementation of https handling.
2014-08-28T09:17:16Z dim: mmm, sounds way more ambitious than simple-routes
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2014-08-28T09:17:38Z dim: but maybe if we can set a consistent part that you'd like to have, we can try to have that
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2014-08-28T09:18:16Z H4ns: dim: the routes look pretty good.  where is the documentation?
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2014-08-28T09:24:30Z H4ns: dim: i mean to say: i'm interested, but documentation will be required.
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2014-08-28T09:25:09Z dim: H4ns: yeah, I don't think there's any at the moment
2014-08-28T09:25:47Z dim: the project comes from https://github.com/vancan1ty/simple-routes
2014-08-28T09:26:32Z H4ns: dim: a separate add-on project can handle documentation however it wants.  hunchentoot itself is documented to some degree and i think i'll keep it like that.
2014-08-28T09:26:46Z dim: +1
2014-08-28T09:27:14Z hitecnologys: I agree. Hunchentoot does not need caching nor routing.
2014-08-28T09:27:15Z H4ns: dim: and like most people, i like writing code better than writing documentation, so i'm not really up to the task of accepting pull requests and then writing the documentation :)
2014-08-28T09:27:28Z dim: I realize I should talk to Currell Berry (vancan1ty @github) before, tho
2014-08-28T09:27:38Z dim: he might even want to do the hunchentoot integration work
2014-08-28T09:28:30Z hitecnologys: I mean I agree about caching, but disagree about routing. Routing can be handled by other libraries pretty well.
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2014-08-28T09:29:26Z dim: yeah but having a default routing policy in hunchentoot makes sense for me... it would avoid everybody writing a new one
2014-08-28T09:29:56Z hitecnologys: Maybe. But I think hunchentoot should be as simple and lightweight as possible.
2014-08-28T09:30:10Z H4ns: hunchentoot is neither simple nor lightweight.
2014-08-28T09:30:19Z H4ns: it should be documented, that is the prime thing.
2014-08-28T09:30:26Z hitecnologys: Yes.
2014-08-28T09:30:58Z hitecnologys: But adding caching wouldn't make it more simple and wouldn create more work for documentation writers.
2014-08-28T09:31:23Z hitecnologys: s/dn /d /
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2014-08-28T09:36:20Z hitecnologys: What should be done at some point, in my opinion, is replacing usocket with iolib as iolib has pretty nice built-in multiplexer which can be used to handle connections in non-blocking way.
2014-08-28T09:36:40Z H4ns: hitecnologys: it sounds simple, but it is not.
2014-08-28T09:36:46Z H4ns: hitecnologys: in fact, it is very hard.
2014-08-28T09:36:51Z hitecnologys: H4ns: it doesn't sound simple to me.
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2014-08-28T09:37:22Z H4ns: hitecnologys: it is better to write a new http server than to try changing hunchentoot so that it works with asynchronous i/o.
2014-08-28T09:37:56Z dim: ISTR that teepeedee is more about raw perfs, right?
2014-08-28T09:37:58Z hitecnologys: H4ns: I see. I'm not very familiar with Hunchentoot architecture.
2014-08-28T09:39:41Z hitecnologys: dim: isn't teepeedee a file server?
2014-08-28T09:40:56Z dim: mmm, https://github.com/vii/teepeedee2 actually, sorry
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2014-08-28T09:41:42Z hitecnologys: Oh, I confused it with FTP server written in C++ called teepeedee.
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2014-08-28T09:53:41Z hitecnologys: Are there any actually working Lisp web servers that support HTTP2?
2014-08-28T09:56:05Z ferada: hitecnologys: you could take a look at https://github.com/akamai/cl-http2-protocol, not sure if there's server code included
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2014-08-28T09:57:37Z hitecnologys: ferada: nice, thanks.
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2014-08-28T11:02:44Z Xach: Wookie(e?) does async
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2014-08-28T11:25:28Z hitecnologys: Xach: woah, looks neat. Thanks for pointing that out.
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2014-08-28T11:30:04Z Xach: AeroNotix: Quicklisp projects are not filtered for taste.
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2014-08-28T11:30:40Z AeroNotix: Xach: roger
2014-08-28T11:30:48Z AeroNotix: Anything for Cassandra (CQL)?
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2014-08-28T11:43:46Z jackdaniel: would you recommend any CL tutorial / book, which doesn't assume prior knowledge about programming?
2014-08-28T11:44:08Z AeroNotix: jackdaniel: not specifically CL, but SICP is a good start.
2014-08-28T11:46:22Z jackdaniel: and it can be pushed to somebody, who doesn't have *any* prior knowledge about programming?
2014-08-28T11:46:25Z wasamasa: jackdaniel: there are a few recommendations on cliki of that kind
2014-08-28T11:46:33Z wasamasa: jackdaniel: http://cliki.net/Getting+Started
2014-08-28T11:46:43Z wasamasa: one of which includes SICP :P
2014-08-28T11:46:54Z jackdaniel: ok, thank you both
2014-08-28T11:46:57Z jackdaniel: :-)
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2014-08-28T11:47:16Z wasamasa: also, follow it's link for the online ressources
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2014-08-28T11:50:03Z AeroNotix: is anyone using cassandra with CL?
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2014-08-28T11:53:32Z wasamasa: facebook?
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2014-08-28T12:06:00Z edgar-rft: jackdaniel: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ requires no prior programming knowledege
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2014-08-28T12:43:30Z sea: Hi all, the code at: 'http://sprunge.us/fBXV' is modifying a list in place and I don't know why. Would someone here look it over quickly and see if anything stands out?
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2014-08-28T12:44:05Z |3b|: sea: sort is destructive
2014-08-28T12:44:11Z sea: sort is destructive!?
2014-08-28T12:44:19Z sea: How do I get a non-destructive sort?
2014-08-28T12:44:27Z sea: Oh, sort and copy-tree?
2014-08-28T12:44:28Z |3b| doesn't know if that is your specific problem, but is most obvious thing i see
2014-08-28T12:44:34Z |3b|: (sort (copy-list ...) ...)
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2014-08-28T12:45:09Z sea: Okay, I put copy-list in, v isn't being modified anymore as far as I can tell
2014-08-28T12:45:34Z |3b|: but note that sort isn't "in place", so it doesn't cause things you pass to it to be sorted, it just reuses pieces of them to produce the result it returns
2014-08-28T12:46:52Z |3b|: also, (setf v ...) isn't valid if you haven't defined a variable named V, and V isn't a good name for a variable created with defvar or defparameter, since those change the semantics of /any/ variable with that name
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2014-08-28T12:47:14Z sea: I just put that there to demonstrate what was going on
2014-08-28T12:47:48Z |3b| would have written (let ((v ...)) (every-finite-union-of-n-sets (length v) v)) even for an example
2014-08-28T12:48:35Z sea: Hrm..yeah that would have been better
2014-08-28T12:48:38Z |3b|: that way the reader doesn't have to worry that your code might be doing odd things due to special variables created somewhere not shown
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2014-08-28T12:50:00Z |3b| would also name the :test-func argument :test
2014-08-28T12:50:20Z |3b|: not sure if i'd call :sort-func :sort or :sort-function though
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2014-08-28T12:52:17Z Xach: When naming generic variables that are intended to be funcalled or applied, I usually use "fun" and sometimes (usually in specific circumstances) "thunk". But I've seen "fn", "function", "func", "fcn", and "func".
2014-08-28T12:52:42Z Xach: err. (remove-duplicates * :test 'string=)
2014-08-28T12:52:52Z Xach can't really get behind func or fcn
2014-08-28T12:54:00Z splittist: So why mention func twice? Because it's twice as funcy!
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2014-08-28T12:55:49Z sea: oh, shoot
2014-08-28T12:56:01Z sea: Did I time out? Am I still here?
2014-08-28T12:56:48Z Xach: sea: To the extent that any of us are, yes.
2014-08-28T12:57:32Z sea: phew. Okay, well, the code works now and doesn't do silly things. Now I just need to fix the algorithm. It makes a big list with 2^(2^n) elements and it just filled my swap before finally dying
2014-08-28T12:57:55Z dim: I like fun and fn myself
2014-08-28T12:58:01Z dim: we used to use fun in Erlang
2014-08-28T12:58:16Z dim: maybe just our team, I don't remember, but I like the pun ;-)
2014-08-28T12:58:28Z sea: isn't fun a keyword in erlang? It's fun() -> blah end, right?
2014-08-28T12:58:50Z dim: well a binding would be Fun because of capitalisation
2014-08-28T12:58:56Z sea: Oh, right
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2014-08-28T12:59:26Z dim: other than that you might be right that I remember about using fun() rather than naming the thunks Fun, it's all fuzzy now, been 14 years
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2014-08-28T13:02:34Z sea: One more thing. How does Slime know my name?
2014-08-28T13:03:05Z sea: Slime in EMacs. Occasionally when I start it, it says stuff like: "Connected, , this could be the start of a beautiful program." Where does it read my name from?
2014-08-28T13:03:17Z sea: It's not grabbing my username
2014-08-28T13:03:21Z eudoxia: i wonder this too
2014-08-28T13:03:27Z eudoxia: i think it just capitalizes my username
2014-08-28T13:03:49Z sea: My username is different from the name it calls me, though. It seems to somehow know my real name
2014-08-28T13:03:51Z eudoxia: in Ubuntu or systems that associate real names to user accounts it probably looks it up there
2014-08-28T13:04:00Z eudoxia: i actually looked at the source code of this
2014-08-28T13:04:14Z eudoxia: but couldn't actually find where it was done (i think it's part of Emacs' core)
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2014-08-28T13:04:29Z sea: It's creepy. I should figure out how to turn it off.
2014-08-28T13:04:33Z dlowe: it's part of the entry in /etc/passwd
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2014-08-28T13:05:03Z eudoxia: i like it, it feels personal and encouraging
2014-08-28T13:05:04Z splittist: You know slime is just presenting code it thinks will satisfy your curiosity, so you don't penetrate its real secret.
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2014-08-28T13:09:04Z dim: C-h v user-full-name, sea
2014-08-28T13:09:25Z dim: well that's only a guess of course, but...
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2014-08-28T13:15:45Z dim: mmm, where would I find http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dijkstra's_algorithm already implemented and ready to use in CL? cl-heap sounded promising, but I'm not finding the algo ready there
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2014-08-28T13:18:14Z wasamasa: sea: it asks emacs for your user name
2014-08-28T13:18:31Z wasamasa: sea: if you've set up your account with your real name, it's retrievable by other programs
2014-08-28T13:18:38Z wasamasa: sea: including emacs
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2014-08-28T13:37:41Z brown````: dim: I believe a Google search will help you find some code.
2014-08-28T13:37:55Z dim: I'm doing that, but...
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2014-08-28T13:40:07Z malice: Hello. I am reading about closures, but I'm not quite sure what's happening. I'm reading PCL by P. Seibel, I'm going through Variables, and I don't understand the closure example.
2014-08-28T13:40:13Z malice: I type: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143541
2014-08-28T13:40:17Z malice: Than I can funcall *fn*.
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2014-08-28T13:40:22Z malice: But where's stored the value?
2014-08-28T13:40:36Z malice: Because I believe *fn* only stores closure(so this anonymous function, afaik).
2014-08-28T13:40:40Z Bike: by "the value" you mean "count", just to be sure?
2014-08-28T13:40:44Z malice: yes
2014-08-28T13:40:52Z Bike: it's stored with the closure.
2014-08-28T13:41:04Z malice: Is it because closure references to "count" it doesn't disappear?
2014-08-28T13:41:06Z Bike: you can think of a closure as a function along with a few variables - the environment of definition.
2014-08-28T13:41:10Z malice: And otherwise gc would take it out?
2014-08-28T13:41:12Z dim: cl-graph might be what I'm searching here
2014-08-28T13:41:18Z AeroNotix: it's stored in the lexical environment of the lambda
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2014-08-28T13:41:44Z AeroNotix: when the lambda is created, it still has a reference to the value. Thus it will not be gc'd and it'll still be accessible to the function after it has been evaluated.
2014-08-28T13:41:45Z eudoxia: malice: the lambda contains its code and any variables it depends on. which in this case is the count variable.
2014-08-28T13:42:12Z malice: Okay. It looks clearer now. Thanks!
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2014-08-28T13:49:22Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: a lisp image is labelled differently from an executable I think because the image also contains the compiler etc?
2014-08-28T13:49:25Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: so, what exactly does the term "Image" span and how is it related to compilation, executables and live hacking
2014-08-28T13:49:35Z AeroNotix: I'm not 100% certain (that's why I brought our discussion here)
2014-08-28T13:49:40Z wasamasa: hmm
2014-08-28T13:49:50Z wasamasa: let me guess, it's not something specified by the standard
2014-08-28T13:50:02Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: also
2014-08-28T13:50:14Z AeroNotix: an imagine contains a snapshot of the entire state of a program when you made the image
2014-08-28T13:50:19Z wasamasa: since it seems a bit too ambiguous to me
2014-08-28T13:50:20Z AeroNotix: whereas an executable runs the program from the start again?
2014-08-28T13:50:40Z wasamasa: and the only time I've tried to compile a lisp program, I got a fasl file
2014-08-28T13:50:42Z AeroNotix: so, in Lisp you don't "compile" the code into a package. You make an `image' of a running Lisp environment
2014-08-28T13:50:54Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: save-lisp-and-die in SBCL creates an image
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2014-08-28T13:51:34Z AeroNotix: someone else could probably answer better. H4ns ?
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2014-08-28T13:51:53Z Xach: Answer what?
2014-08-28T13:52:03Z wasamasa: I don't really see a reason why this should be the only way considering I've read about SBCL generating ASM code
2014-08-28T13:52:04Z AeroNotix: succinct question would be: What is a lisp image and what relation is it to a typical executable?
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2014-08-28T13:52:16Z Xach: What does the term "image" span?
2014-08-28T13:52:21Z AeroNotix: Xach: yes
2014-08-28T13:52:35Z AeroNotix: Xach: e.g. save-lisp-and-die
2014-08-28T13:52:37Z dlowe: A lisp image is literally a representation of the memory of a lisp system.
2014-08-28T13:52:59Z AeroNotix: so it's like a snapshot of a running system. That's what I thought.
2014-08-28T13:53:35Z Xach: wasamasa: It's the only way because making another way is work, and saving an image and tacking the runtime to it is easy.
2014-08-28T13:54:39Z Bike: wasamasa: what functions are compiled to is pretty irrelevant to the image model. an sbcl image is full of machine language functions.
2014-08-28T13:54:40Z wasamasa: Xach: so, there's no such thing as a platform-specific linker which would allow me to create an .elf, .so or .exe
2014-08-28T13:54:57Z Bike: usually you can make an image into an executable.
2014-08-28T13:55:11Z Bike: ecl and lispworks can make shared objects, i think.
2014-08-28T13:55:13Z Xach: wasamasa: Depends on the platform.
2014-08-28T13:55:15Z dlowe: wasamasa: there's nothing preventing one being made
2014-08-28T13:55:18Z Xach: And implementation.
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2014-08-28T13:55:26Z dlowe: just a hard problem
2014-08-28T13:55:30Z wasamasa: dlowe: I'm just slightly shocked this doesn't seem to be a common need :P
2014-08-28T13:55:47Z dlowe: wasamasa: I think it's self selecting
2014-08-28T13:55:50Z Xach: wasamasa: It is a common need. Those with the expertise to do it are not the same as the ones who most desire it.
2014-08-28T13:55:52Z drmeister: AeroNotix: Different lisp systems generate different kinds of images.  Mine generates a program runs the Lisp definition from start to finish.  Others compact all of the lisp objects in a small area of memory, unwind the stack and then save that "image".
2014-08-28T13:55:57Z dlowe: people who are overly bothered by it leave lisp.
2014-08-28T13:56:14Z wasamasa: Bike: sounds logical considering the design of ECL
2014-08-28T13:56:28Z dlowe: I think a lot of things are like that.
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2014-08-28T13:59:53Z drmeister: I'm just wrestling with implementing code that does this.
2014-08-28T14:00:09Z wasamasa: so, if I understand this correctly, I can instruct an implementation like SBCL to dump out the initial state of a program to something containing loads of machine code and it can run that dump with speeds comparable to executables compiled with a C compiler
2014-08-28T14:00:20Z wasamasa: it == SBCL
2014-08-28T14:00:32Z dlowe: modulo some initialization time
2014-08-28T14:00:47Z wasamasa: and if I want to, I can wrap up SBCL together with this dump and share it as a single file
2014-08-28T14:00:58Z dlowe: yes
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2014-08-28T14:01:01Z wasamasa: ok, thanks
2014-08-28T14:01:20Z wasamasa: so it's kind of like with python
2014-08-28T14:01:32Z Xach: wasamasa: machine code is not the thing that makes C fast. it's lack of safety, interactivity, redefinition, etc. the semantics allow doing things with far fewer checks and indirections.
2014-08-28T14:01:44Z wasamasa: which eventually creates bytecode files and executes them instead of the source files for a bit of speed improvement
2014-08-28T14:02:05Z wasamasa: and can be bundled together with a python interpreter to a single executable
2014-08-28T14:02:18Z Xach: the fact that SBCL produces machine code is nice, and it has a good compiler to produce pretty good machine code, but it's not automatically fast because of it
2014-08-28T14:02:49Z dlowe: wasamasa: er, it's not quite the same.
2014-08-28T14:02:55Z Xach: similarly, translating a language to common lisp and then compiling also doesn't automatically make it fast, if the semantics of the program and the language make some things hard to be fast.
2014-08-28T14:03:00Z wasamasa: dlowe: of course not, it's just the most comparable thing I know of :P
2014-08-28T14:03:27Z Xach: I don't think it's *bad* to have things like that, but it helps to have appropriate expectations.
2014-08-28T14:04:13Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: #archlinux
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2014-08-28T14:06:26Z Xach: It also seems to me that a person who has learned enough to make some of these nice, cool things, might be older, and have time that is pretty valuable, divided between work and family, with less time to invest in stuff like this unless it is their work.
2014-08-28T14:06:51Z Xach: MORE CODE HERMITS
2014-08-28T14:07:13Z wasamasa: Xach: thanks for the reminder
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2014-08-28T14:07:30Z wasamasa: Xach: I've actually read an article about a friendlier C that doesn't exploit that kind of behaviour today
2014-08-28T14:07:54Z Xach: http://www.reddit.com/user/pkhuong has some nice remarks in a discussion about that
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2014-08-28T14:21:04Z dim: ok :graph in QL has the shortest-path implementation ;-)
2014-08-28T14:22:04Z Xach: I wish there was a ql-universe code search
2014-08-28T14:22:53Z brucem: there will be one, one day!
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2014-08-28T14:23:08Z Xach: one day, oh yes, one day
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2014-08-28T14:25:08Z brucem: Xach: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovKk_kPmAk4
2014-08-28T14:26:07Z Xach: ha
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2014-08-28T14:26:16Z Xach would go for a lisp filk of that
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2014-08-28T14:31:33Z wasamasa: Xach: so, something like github's code search?
2014-08-28T14:32:00Z Xach: wasamasa: yes, something like it, but more aware of lisp syntax.
2014-08-28T14:32:10Z brucem: wasamasa: sourcegraph.com is fun and can be taught about Lisp syntax.
2014-08-28T14:32:14Z brucem: (via srclib.org)
2014-08-28T14:32:25Z Xach: also, not all code in quicklisp is on github, so using it directly would miss some useful things.
2014-08-28T14:32:28Z wasamasa: Xach: I wonder whether montezuma would help with that
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2014-08-28T14:32:35Z wasamasa: Xach: or whatever the quickdocs guy uses
2014-08-28T14:32:43Z Xach: I had such a hard time using montezuma that I wrote my own text search system.
2014-08-28T14:32:57Z Xach: It was, for me, easier to rewrite for my own needs than understand the docs and code.
2014-08-28T14:33:10Z eudoxia: Github uses Elasticsearch for its code search
2014-08-28T14:33:18Z eudoxia: i've been thinking about writing a CL client
2014-08-28T14:33:46Z Xach: http://xach.com/naggum/articles/notes.html#search is what i made.
2014-08-28T14:33:54Z Xach: eudoxia: there's at least one existing CL client
2014-08-28T14:34:27Z Xach: https://github.com/kraison/cl-elasticsearch
2014-08-28T14:34:56Z eudoxia: Xach: no docs, website, examples, or tests. Probably better to fork it or start something new
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2014-08-28T14:35:32Z Xach: Depends on your goals.
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2014-08-28T14:36:31Z wasamasa: Xach: hmm, I wonder whether this is because it's porting something that was originally java
2014-08-28T14:36:55Z wasamasa: Xach: and therefore is bound to have an API that is weird to use in other languages
2014-08-28T14:37:08Z Xach: wasamasa: I think montezuma was a port of the ruby version of a java program. and the java program was a port of a Lisp program.
2014-08-28T14:37:20Z wasamasa: Xach: hmm
2014-08-28T14:37:29Z wasamasa: Xach: time to get our fingers on the original lisp program then?
2014-08-28T14:37:36Z pjb: wasamasa: you need to read http://richard.esplins.org/static/downloads/unix-haters-handbook.pdf
2014-08-28T14:37:52Z Xach: wasamasa: https://code.google.com/p/montezuma/ has a link to the lisp paper. not sure about the code.
2014-08-28T14:38:12Z wasamasa: pjb: I've started reading it and fell asleep after about 50 pages
2014-08-28T14:39:32Z pjb: wasamasa: that "friendly" C is still full of unspecified behavior, which is very unfriendly!
2014-08-28T14:39:42Z wasamasa: pjb: oh snap
2014-08-28T14:39:51Z wasamasa: pjb: besides, wasn't it named "friendlier"?
2014-08-28T14:42:08Z dlowe: The UNIX Haters Handbook could have been condensed to a short critical essay if they'd left out all the hate.
2014-08-28T14:42:45Z Xach: printed on the barf bag
2014-08-28T14:43:00Z pjb: dlowe: that's what gives it its character.
2014-08-28T14:43:27Z dlowe: pjb: it's true. No one would have heard of it otherwise, I'm sure.
2014-08-28T14:43:31Z pjb: If the goto considered harmful tittle hadn't been given by the editor, it would have stayed a nice academic article like so many never read by anybody.
2014-08-28T14:43:50Z pjb: Nobody would have read a short critical essay with no hate.
2014-08-28T14:43:59Z pjb: So we agree. :-)
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2014-08-28T14:46:14Z rszeno hate/love come togheter, :)
2014-08-28T14:46:39Z oGMo: pjb: CL is full of unspecified behavior :P
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2014-08-28T14:47:00Z oGMo: though i'm not sure i'd argue it's friendly
2014-08-28T14:47:01Z rszeno: imo, this is the good part
2014-08-28T14:47:12Z pjb: Indeed.  This book doesn't make you hate unix really.  It makes you understand it a little better, and if anything, like it even better.  But at the same time, you understand better lisp machines and it makes you like better lisp implementations and emacs :-)
2014-08-28T14:47:36Z oGMo: coq is purely specified behavior, isn't it? so i'm not sure that's criteria for "friendly"
2014-08-28T14:48:09Z wasamasa: pjb: how dare you say "better lisp implementations" and emacs in the same sentence
2014-08-28T14:48:14Z pjb: oGMo: agreed.  There is not much difference between CL and C, from the ontological point of view.  The difference lies in the culture of the people using those languages and writing those implementations.
2014-08-28T14:48:27Z oGMo: pjb: yet if they're spent less time hating and more itme writing CL to fix any perceived problems, we'd be a lot better off
2014-08-28T14:48:31Z pjb: wasamasa: like better       lisp implementations.
2014-08-28T14:48:32Z oGMo: "they'd"
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2014-08-28T14:51:22Z chitofan: clhs member
2014-08-28T14:51:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_member.htm
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2014-08-28T14:51:59Z pjb: chitofan: lisp is a fun languages, because it uses punning a lot.
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2014-08-28T14:53:59Z pjb: you may use member as a predicate (to know if an element is in a list), but you can also use it to get the tail of the list that starts with this element.  digit-char-p can be used as a predicate, and to convert this character to a number.  a list is also a cons, so you can use car/cdr/null on a list too (even if it's often better to write first/rest/endp in your programs), which means that you can apply other functions such as subst,
2014-08-28T14:53:59Z pjb: that work on _trees_ of conses, on your lists (and sublists).
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2014-08-28T14:55:35Z kristof: OO literature should have adopted the term "flavors" instead of classes. That would have been more fun.
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2014-08-28T14:58:53Z brucem: kristof: know anything about :required-methods and defflavor?
2014-08-28T14:59:53Z kristof: brucem: was just looking at it, and I wish CL had that
2014-08-28T15:00:43Z brucem: kristof: swmckay has mentioned it to me a couple of times when I wanted something in another CLOS-based system.
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2014-08-28T15:01:17Z kristof:  brucem: If CLOS had it, we'd have compile time guaranteed interfaces
2014-08-28T15:02:17Z kristof: brucem: what kind of things were you looking for?
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2014-08-28T15:03:05Z brucem: kristof: Something similar to protocols in Objective C or partsof traits in Rust ... the ability to say that an arg to a method in a generic function must conform to an interface, which is a list of methods ...
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2014-08-28T15:03:16Z kristof: ..
2014-08-28T15:03:45Z brucem: kristof: doing it at def class time is fine & interesting too. :)
2014-08-28T15:04:00Z kristof: Yeah, CLOS has diddly to ensure that
2014-08-28T15:04:00Z Bike: yeah, i've wanted that before. like "this method works on anything for which addition is defined"
2014-08-28T15:04:23Z Bike: of course then there's all this stuff about what if addition has to be associative, and like, shit gets weird.
2014-08-28T15:04:49Z kristof: brucem: Here's the way to do it with runtime checking only. Define an interfsce class with your methods defaulting to an UNIMPLEMENTED-METHOD exception
2014-08-28T15:05:06Z brucem: Bike: yeah .. but it seems to work out in Haskell with type classes & Rust with traits ... so i have to dig more into them some day.
2014-08-28T15:05:25Z Bike: well, i know a lot of haskell people and none of them like the math, but other than that, yeah.
2014-08-28T15:05:27Z drmeister: For some reason my when I install ASDF I'm getting symbols like |%:COMPUTE-OPERATIONS-:VALUE| being interned?  Does anybody recognize these or is this likely a bug in my program that is generating these weird symbols.
2014-08-28T15:05:52Z drmeister: Symbols with colons in them is a really bad idea.
2014-08-28T15:06:07Z Bike: drmeister: i think new asdf has things like that. it's a perfectly fine symbol, escaped and all
2014-08-28T15:06:17Z Bike: alternately, it might be a format call going weird somewhere.
2014-08-28T15:06:27Z kristof: drmeister: dunno about the colons but "COMPUTE-OPERATIONS" sounds like something I've seen in the asdf object model
2014-08-28T15:06:49Z Xach: drmeister: In my system, I have a symbol named %COMPUTE-OPERATIONS-VALUE, but nothing like what you've shown. I'm using asdf 3.1.3.
2014-08-28T15:07:00Z drmeister: I can find COMPUTE-OPERATIONS in asdf.lisp but not %:COMPUTE-OPERATIONS or COMPUTE-OPERATIONS-:VALUE
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2014-08-28T15:07:55Z drmeister: Xach: I may be screwing up the construction of a string that gets interned and is meant to be %COMPUTE-OPERATIONS-VALUE
2014-08-28T15:08:02Z Xach: drmeister: seems plausible
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2014-08-28T15:08:28Z drmeister: That gives me a hypothesis to check - thanks.
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2014-08-28T15:09:46Z chitofan: pjb: thanks for the pointer :)
2014-08-28T15:10:14Z oGMo: drmeister: what are you returning for symbol-name or string on uninterned symbols?
2014-08-28T15:10:35Z drmeister: What I can't figure out is where they assemble those strings.   I'm looking at "asdf.lisp" which contains everything that is asdf - right?
2014-08-28T15:11:01Z drmeister: oGMo: Whatever the symbol name is.
2014-08-28T15:11:02Z Bike: asdf does a lot of symbol hackery, though. functions should all be in the head of the file
2014-08-28T15:11:14Z oGMo: or perhaps format ~a
2014-08-28T15:11:52Z oGMo: well, just a hunch, since it's probably constructing symbols from other uninterned symbols
2014-08-28T15:12:31Z oGMo: or some unhandled format directive with :
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2014-08-28T15:13:26Z kristof: I find it odd that CLOS removed two really useful features of Flavors, namely the :abstract-class keyword and the list of required-methods
2014-08-28T15:13:39Z kristof: Can someone explain to me why this happened?
2014-08-28T15:13:57Z oGMo: because mop, and methods aren't part of classes?
2014-08-28T15:14:04Z Bike: what do those do
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2014-08-28T15:16:10Z drmeister: oGMo: I see what you mean.
2014-08-28T15:17:25Z Xach: oGMo: nice guess! i eagerly await drmeister's report.
2014-08-28T15:17:40Z drmeister: On my system (format t "~a" :test) -->  :TEST
2014-08-28T15:17:42Z pjb: chitofan: notice that you can use several different functions to find if a list contains an element: member, find, position, search and their variants, and a few others.
2014-08-28T15:17:49Z drmeister: On ECL (format t "~a" :test) --> TEST
2014-08-28T15:17:49Z oGMo: heh :P
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2014-08-28T15:18:20Z pjb: drmeister: capitalization depends on *print-case*
2014-08-28T15:18:31Z Bike: drmeister: ~a is like princ, what'd (princ :test) do
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2014-08-28T15:18:38Z Xach: drmeister: the smoking gun!
2014-08-28T15:18:57Z pjb: drmeister: notice that --> usually means return.  format t returns nil; it _prints_ TEST.
2014-08-28T15:19:08Z kristof: Bike: :abstract-class specifies a class for which it is an error to instantiate. I know you could define a method with mop but that doesn't change compile-time stuff. :required-methods is just interface stuff.
2014-08-28T15:19:11Z drmeister: On Clasp (princ :test) --> :TEST   On ECL (princ :test) --> TEST
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2014-08-28T15:19:28Z drmeister: What should princ return?   The symbol-name?
2014-08-28T15:19:29Z pjb: ecl is correct here.
2014-08-28T15:19:32Z pjb: yes.
2014-08-28T15:19:41Z pjb: capitalized as per *print-case*.
2014-08-28T15:19:48Z Bike: drmeister: princ is like *print-escape* being false, and: "If false, escape characters and package prefixes are not output when an expression is printed. "
2014-08-28T15:20:04Z drmeister: *print-case* is :UPCASE in both cases.
2014-08-28T15:20:24Z drmeister: Where would this come from?   Does FORMAT use PRINC?
2014-08-28T15:20:25Z Xach: print case is irrelevant to the problem at hand.
2014-08-28T15:20:33Z pjb: drmeister: I mean, don't hard code symbol-name. You need to wrap it in the required capitalization.
2014-08-28T15:20:35Z Bike: drmeister: ~a is described as being like princ
2014-08-28T15:20:40Z Xach: drmeister: http://l1sp.org/cl/~a
2014-08-28T15:21:28Z Krystof: thanks for testing, Xach
2014-08-28T15:21:40Z drmeister: This is old code, from when I started. I'm trying to think of where the source of this problem is.
2014-08-28T15:22:02Z Xach: Krystof: no problem.
2014-08-28T15:22:21Z oGMo: pjb: er surely symbol-name is independent of *print-case*
2014-08-28T15:22:23Z drmeister: My PRINC is: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/78376397c4562df272a5
2014-08-28T15:22:38Z Xach: drmeister: "from the oldest part of this infant"
2014-08-28T15:22:42Z pjb: oGMo: that's way I said "wrap".
2014-08-28T15:22:49Z pjb: s/way/why/
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2014-08-28T15:23:00Z drmeister: My WRITE is translated from ECL's WRITE
2014-08-28T15:23:46Z drmeister: Clasp (symbol-name :TEST) --> "TEST"
2014-08-28T15:24:05Z Bike: well, are you sure that dynamic binding actually happens, i guess? and that your rewritten WRITe actually respects it?
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2014-08-28T15:30:06Z drmeister: I think I have it.   I have a method for every class that prints a representation of that object.   The one for SYMBOL doesn't look at *print-case* or *print-escape* or any of that.   I need to implement a more sophisticated printer for symbols.   I'll copy ECL's.
2014-08-28T15:31:46Z drmeister: The ECL write_symbol.d file embodies all that functionality.   It's only 200 lines.   More "taint" for the lawyers.
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2014-08-28T15:36:36Z splittist: minion chant
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2014-08-28T15:38:49Z chitofan: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143543
2014-08-28T15:39:04Z chitofan: (check-rowp '(2 2) 'zxzxz) should give t
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2014-08-28T15:41:05Z |3b|: -p suffix implies that it returns true when the first part of the name is true, so "check-rowp" sounds like it would return true when the row is checkered or something... maybe can-move-p or valid-move-p would be a better name?
2014-08-28T15:41:27Z splittist: is there a (row) function, or is the call to (check-merge-p (row)) in the last line wrong?
2014-08-28T15:42:19Z |3b|: also either your indentation is confusing, or that flet has no body
2014-08-28T15:43:16Z |3b| assumes parens are wrong, or indentation is wrong, since that COND doesn't look like a valid flet function definition
2014-08-28T15:44:03Z |3b|: also, pick "common lisp" for "colorize as" when pasting CL code on paste.lisp.org
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2014-08-28T16:00:39Z chitofan: row should be a list
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2014-08-28T16:05:42Z chitofan: thanks and sorry for the late reply guys
2014-08-28T16:05:47Z chitofan: its 12am here in singapore and im zonked out
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2014-08-28T16:23:32Z drmeister: I finally understand what NIL is and how it's represented in ECL.  It's a special value and wherever it needs to be treated as a symbol they test for the special value and then lookup the ECL_NIL_SYMBOL object.
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2014-08-28T17:05:20Z didi: Can I safely map-into the same sequence I transverse? e.g. (let ((foo (list 1 2 3))) (map-into foo '- foo) foo)
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2014-08-28T17:07:00Z Xach: didi: yes
2014-08-28T17:07:09Z didi: Xach: Cool. Thank you.
2014-08-28T17:07:18Z Xach: didi: the rules for traversal are about modifying the cdr chain, not the contents
2014-08-28T17:07:26Z Xach: (don't modify the cdr chain)
2014-08-28T17:08:03Z Shinmera: There's a section in the CLHS about modification while traversing, but I forgot what number it had, unfortunately.
2014-08-28T17:08:27Z Shinmera: Ah, found it http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_f.htm
2014-08-28T17:08:34Z Xach: 3.6
2014-08-28T17:08:57Z didi: Shinmera: Thank you.
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2014-08-28T17:56:12Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2014-08-28T17:56:51Z beach: stacksmith: The application I promised is on GitHub: https://github.com/robert-strandh/TransClime
2014-08-28T17:57:32Z beach: brown````: Same message for you.
2014-08-28T17:58:58Z easye waves to beach.
2014-08-28T17:59:02Z beach: I welcome improvements.  Right now it is just that private tool of mine that I was persuaded to make public.  Now, it must be improved to correspond to the expectations of a wider audience.
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2014-08-28T18:00:56Z beach: Some suggested improvements are listed in the TODO file.
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2014-08-28T18:08:13Z AeroNotix: http://i.imgur.com/U5PfsXk.jpg
2014-08-28T18:09:03Z beach: AeroNotix: Please don't post URLs without comments.  It's the behavior of spammers.
2014-08-28T18:09:31Z AeroNotix: beach: Roger
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2014-08-28T18:11:44Z stacksmith: beach: thanks, I'll take a look.  I've been hacking lispbuilder sdl to display structured text, but other than the learning experience I am not sure how usable it will be.
2014-08-28T18:12:31Z beach: No obligation.  I just put it up there because you asked me to, and I thought it was a good idea to make it public anyway.
2014-08-28T18:13:27Z stacksmith: Hmm. I am a bit out of it.  I meant that my hackage may be less then useful.  I will definitely check out your code.
2014-08-28T18:13:33Z brown````: beach: Thanks!
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2014-08-28T18:14:45Z brown````: beach: Do you have any guess how much work is involved in implementing in SBCL the fast method dispatch ideas you presented at ILC?
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2014-08-28T18:15:08Z beach: brown````: Not really, no.  I don't know much about SBCL internals.
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2014-08-28T18:15:36Z stacksmith: AeroNotix: the imgur link definitely rings true.  I cannot imagine going back to the tedium of non-Lisp programming.
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2014-08-28T18:16:42Z stacksmith: beach: not familiar with youre presentation.  Is it something along the lines of Self's inline polymorphic caches?
2014-08-28T18:17:53Z beach: stacksmith: Don't know about those.  Basically, I use an already published technique that consists of doing a binary search with constant values on class numbers.  My contribution is to make this work for CL where classes can change and instances can become obsolete.
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2014-08-28T18:18:06Z AeroNotix: stacksmith: writing Erlang has become a mega chore
2014-08-28T18:18:24Z beach: stacksmith: You can read the paper here: http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf
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2014-08-28T18:18:36Z beach: stacksmith: It is pretty easy to understand, really.
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2014-08-28T18:19:04Z stacksmith: beach: you may enjoy reading Ungar's work on Self method dispatching.  I was really excited about it in the late 90's...
2014-08-28T18:19:44Z beach: stacksmith: I must have stumbled across that in my literature research, but I'll look it up again.  Thanks for reminding me.
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2014-08-28T18:41:28Z AeroNotix: bigger than my family probably :(
2014-08-28T18:41:34Z AeroNotix: oh god why does everyone hate me
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2014-08-28T18:50:21Z Xach: Possibly related to that awful "sbcl/gnu/emacs" image.
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2014-08-28T19:13:52Z stacksmith: I have a piece of clumsy code: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143546 .  Trying to iterate over a vector of numbers, summing them until the sum is greater then 'max'.  Returning index.  Seems like there is a better way...
2014-08-28T19:14:19Z H4ns: stacksmith: loop is made specifically for such things
2014-08-28T19:14:44Z stacksmith: H4ns: I started with loop but got lost...
2014-08-28T19:14:59Z H4ns: stacksmith: your code is truly horrible and a good example why do and do* have no place in tasteful common lisp software.
2014-08-28T19:15:24Z |3b|: (loop for i across numbers for index from 0 sum i into sum while (< sum max) finally (return index))?
2014-08-28T19:15:38Z H4ns: (loop for x across vector summing x until (> sum max)) would be my first attempt, that'd probably need some massaging.
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2014-08-28T19:15:43Z pjb: stacksmith: http://paste.lisp.org/+32RE/1
2014-08-28T19:15:47Z stacksmith: H4ns: agreed.  That's why I asked for suggestions.  Thanks
2014-08-28T19:15:49Z H4ns: |3b|: thanks
2014-08-28T19:16:39Z H4ns: note how what |3b| suggests is almost what you've asked for.
2014-08-28T19:17:06Z H4ns: ... in the sense of the translating the specification into code.
2014-08-28T19:17:30Z stacksmith: Is index 1+ what I need in |3b| code?
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2014-08-28T19:17:45Z |3b| should have used 'until (> sum max)'
2014-08-28T19:17:58Z |3b|: stacksmith: depends on which index you want
2014-08-28T19:18:06Z |3b|: and if you want 1-based indexing
2014-08-28T19:18:14Z dlowe: geez, people.  (position max numbers :test-not #'<)
2014-08-28T19:18:32Z H4ns: dlowe: hu?
2014-08-28T19:18:40Z dlowe: oh, summing. nvm.
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2014-08-28T19:19:11Z H4ns: even position-if and a lambda would be clearer than the do mess, i'd say :)
2014-08-28T19:19:25Z dlowe: hah.
2014-08-28T19:19:53Z stacksmith: Hey, come on.  I told you it was crap, no need to rub it in.
2014-08-28T19:19:58Z H4ns: (let ((sum 0)) (position-if (lambda (x) (> (incf sum x) max)) vector))
2014-08-28T19:20:33Z H4ns: stacksmith: not against you, but against the old-timers who still hang on to do.  provided they exist :)
2014-08-28T19:20:51Z dlowe: (position-if (let ((max (elt numbers 1)))) (lambda (x) (> (incf sum x) max)) numbers :start 1)
2014-08-28T19:21:03Z dlowe: oops. (position-if (let ((max (elt numbers 0)))) (lambda (x) (> (incf sum x) max)) numbers :start 1)
2014-08-28T19:21:19Z dlowe: don't want to assume 0 is the max :)
2014-08-28T19:21:42Z H4ns: i'd vote for loop
2014-08-28T19:21:45Z stacksmith: I knew there was a way to do it in one line.  There generally is :)
2014-08-28T19:21:53Z dlowe: yeah, loop wins here
2014-08-28T19:21:55Z |3b|: well, linefeeds are optional :)
2014-08-28T19:22:04Z |3b|: so you can put a lot on one line
2014-08-28T19:22:11Z stacksmith: Thanks for the help.
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2014-08-28T19:32:17Z pjb: (block it (reduce (lambda (e r) (if (< r max) (+ e r) (return-from it r))) seq :initial-value 0))
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2014-08-28T19:36:27Z |3b|: (position-if (let ((s 0)) (lambda (a) (incf s a) (> s max))) seq)?
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2014-08-28T20:31:14Z ferada: is a reader syntax for multiline/delimited strings already packaged somewhere? i know let-over-lambda has one, but afaik not as a standalone library.
2014-08-28T20:32:08Z oGMo: "multiline/delimited"?
2014-08-28T20:32:17Z |3b|: might be one in cl-interpol, though it mostly does other things i think
2014-08-28T20:32:19Z ferada: """foo"""
2014-08-28T20:32:38Z oGMo: CL strings are already multiline though?
2014-08-28T20:32:59Z |3b| wondered about that too, assumed some other meaning of multiline
2014-08-28T20:33:14Z ferada: ah cl-interpol is perfect
2014-08-28T20:33:22Z oGMo: same, i was wondering if a "multiline/delimited" string was some odd thing
2014-08-28T20:33:41Z |3b|: """foo""" doesn't explain much though
2014-08-28T20:33:46Z oGMo: exactly
2014-08-28T20:34:03Z ferada: mhm yeah i needed nesting quotes, should've said that
2014-08-28T20:34:14Z oGMo: what does it _do_ though?
2014-08-28T20:34:19Z oGMo: "\"foo\""?
2014-08-28T20:34:29Z ferada: that's python syntax
2014-08-28T20:34:31Z rszeno: if is """ is multiline, is a python thing
2014-08-28T20:35:42Z rszeno: afaik the only difference is that allow \t, \n and \d unescaped
2014-08-28T20:35:55Z oGMo: afaict, that syntax in python does nothing that CL strings don't also do
2014-08-28T20:36:01Z rszeno: sorry \r not \d
2014-08-28T20:36:35Z |3b|: looks like it allows " without \
2014-08-28T20:36:49Z rszeno: yes, true, i forget, :)
2014-08-28T20:37:44Z rszeno: can have something like """"" """""
2014-08-28T20:38:25Z oGMo: i'd think something like a simple reader syntax for format-nil would be the most useful
2014-08-28T20:40:07Z oGMo: #~("~{...~}~%" ...) heh
2014-08-28T20:40:27Z drmeister: Ugh, the Chicken/Egg problem of starting up a Lisp system bites me every time.   I translate the write_symbol functions of ECL into C++ and now startup fails because they need infrastructure to be up and running to work and the infrastructure can't get up and running because I need to print symbols before it's up and running.
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2014-08-28T20:41:10Z oGMo: shouldn't the bootstrap code use low-level stuff then?
2014-08-28T20:41:17Z oGMo: low-level/internal
2014-08-28T20:41:48Z drmeister: I'm putting in a global bool variable called global_printSymbolsProperly that is false at startup and only gets turned on when everything is ready. Before it's ready I'll use my old symbol printer.
2014-08-28T20:42:32Z pjb: Yes, usually you slove that by having two different languages, a simple subset, used to bootstrap the real language.
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2014-08-28T20:47:27Z drmeister: I had a heck of a time figuring out how ECL worked early on because the simple subset seems to be missing a lot of printing functionality.
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2014-08-28T20:47:57Z drmeister: I hope this new code prints symbols all purdy-like.
2014-08-28T20:48:28Z drmeister: It checks all the right dynamic variables when mine didn't.
2014-08-28T20:50:11Z drmeister: Thanks oGMo for your insight.  That saved me a lot of time.
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2014-08-28T20:56:38Z drmeister: The other thing that kills me is when an error happens during bootstrapping and the Lisp error handling code isn't in place --> Infinite Loop that I can't break out of in emacs.
2014-08-28T20:56:42Z drmeister sighs
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2014-08-28T21:10:13Z drmeister: Now on Clasp:   (princ :test) --> TEST
2014-08-28T21:10:51Z drmeister: (setq *print-case* :downcase)  (princ :test) --> test
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2014-08-28T21:12:03Z ferada: and capitalize?
2014-08-28T21:12:21Z drmeister: How do I do that?  (setq *print-case* :capitalize)?
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2014-08-28T21:12:26Z ferada: yep
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2014-08-28T21:12:45Z drmeister: Yes:  (princ :test) --> Test
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2014-08-28T21:13:47Z drmeister: Next test - load ASDF bitcode file.   That's where the symbols were being mangled.   I have to compile the release version for that otherwise loading the ASDF bitcode file takes 10 minutes because the LLVM debug library is sloooow.
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2014-08-28T22:10:12Z malice: Hello! If I define a variable with setf, it's not special, so it can't be shadowed with LET, right?
2014-08-28T22:10:48Z drmeister: Fixing the symbol printing fixed the weird symbols - and now my symbols are beautiful.
2014-08-28T22:12:45Z Bike: malice: how do you define a variable with setf?
2014-08-28T22:12:48Z drmeister: Is it more common for Lisp systems to include ASDF at startup is it more common to load it after startup when it's needed?
2014-08-28T22:13:06Z Bike: drmeister: usually it's in the normal system initialization file
2014-08-28T22:13:07Z malice: I mean, if I define a variable with DEFVAR, it's dynamically scoped and special, so using LET will only shadow it - I won't change the original value. However, if I don't define variable special(so I believe it's lexical than), then you can't shadow it with LET?
2014-08-28T22:13:10Z drmeister: "or is it more common to load it after startup"
2014-08-28T22:13:18Z Bike: so you can disable it if you really want to
2014-08-28T22:13:29Z malice: Bike, I mean using something like (setf *x* 10)
2014-08-28T22:13:33Z drmeister: Ok, lets see how much that adds to startup time.
2014-08-28T22:13:38Z Bike: if you just do (setf foo bar) without mentioning foo at some point, the system will just assume it's special
2014-08-28T22:14:17Z malice: Hmm...
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2014-08-28T22:14:21Z |3b|: malice: behavior of SETF on an undefined variable is undefined
2014-08-28T22:14:42Z Bike: oh, is it? well there we go then
2014-08-28T22:14:44Z |3b|: and LET will shadow a lexical variable
2014-08-28T22:14:54Z malice: Hmm
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2014-08-28T22:15:02Z malice: Maybe I mispelled something, let me check, brb
2014-08-28T22:15:25Z |3b|: arguably, it doesn't "shadow" a special variable, it makes a new binding for the same variable
2014-08-28T22:16:17Z |3b|: everything that uses a special variable sees the same variable no matter who binds it
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2014-08-28T22:17:00Z malice: Does DEFVAR create special variable?
2014-08-28T22:17:05Z |3b|: it does
2014-08-28T22:17:10Z malice: Okay.
2014-08-28T22:17:34Z malice: I have an example I don't understand. It may be because of undefined behaviour of SETF, but I'll ask. Give me a sec to paste it.
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2014-08-28T22:20:28Z malice: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143548
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2014-08-28T22:21:28Z malice: I don't understand why in example with *test2* function foo keeps increasing the value of the "global" variable, where in *x* it only updates the LET's one.
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2014-08-28T22:21:37Z malice: Is it because *test2* isn't lexical?
2014-08-28T22:21:47Z malice: Um, I mean, dynamic?
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2014-08-28T22:23:24Z |3b|: setf is probably updating *test2* as if it were dynamic, but not making it globally dynamic, so BAR gets a lexical binding of *test2* which doesn't affect FOO
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2014-08-28T22:24:20Z |3b|: "defparameter and defvar establish name as a dynamic variable." according to clhs, so all uses of *x* are dynamic
2014-08-28T22:24:29Z malice: That's what the book says.
2014-08-28T22:24:42Z malice: So I believe that's true, and I think I get it why it works that way.
2014-08-28T22:24:45Z malice: At least I hope so.
2014-08-28T22:24:47Z |3b|: it isn't specified what setf should do with *test2* in FOO or at top level
2014-08-28T22:25:03Z |3b|: and i think some implementations do different things with it
2014-08-28T22:25:20Z malice: So I'm just playing in undefined land?
2014-08-28T22:25:32Z |3b|: so you should use defvar/defparametyer or proper declarations
2014-08-28T22:25:33Z |3b|: right
2014-08-28T22:26:05Z malice: Okay. Thanks for clarification.
2014-08-28T22:26:15Z malice: :)
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2014-08-28T22:52:24Z drmeister: ASDF adds 25% more Common Lisp source code to Clasp.
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2014-08-28T22:54:10Z drmeister: ASDF: 11373 loc     Other Common Lisp:  39884 loc
2014-08-28T22:55:21Z oGMo: :o
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2014-08-28T22:57:32Z drmeister: To me ASDF still feels like a story without a punch-line.   I haven't implemented CREATE-IMAGE so I can't actually build anything with it.  I think I have everything in place.   I compile Common Lisp source, generate bitcode files, compile those to ".o" object files and link them into .dylib or .so files.  It's just pulling it all together and integrating it with CREATE-IMAGE that I'm still not sure about.
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2014-08-28T22:58:08Z drmeister: Fare - where for art thou?
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2014-08-28T22:59:30Z wasamasa: drmeister: I assume you've read the discussion hours ago about the role of images and executables with common lisp
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2014-08-28T23:01:10Z drmeister: I was on and off line - I caught a little bit of it.   Could someone paste me the whole thing?
2014-08-28T23:01:16Z wasamasa: sure
2014-08-28T23:01:23Z drmeister: Good idea that.
2014-08-28T23:01:32Z |3b|: minion: tell drmeister about logs
2014-08-28T23:01:32Z minion: drmeister: direct your attention towards logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000)
2014-08-28T23:03:39Z wasamasa: drmeister: http://ix.io/e4E
2014-08-28T23:04:34Z wasamasa: drmeister: you don't seem to have missed out
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2014-08-28T23:05:20Z wasamasa: drmeister: I mean, you commented on it even
2014-08-28T23:06:21Z drmeister: Yeah - I did read most of it earlier then.
2014-08-28T23:07:12Z drmeister: My problem is a bit different.   I can't dump a running image.  My system is very much like ECL and works like an AOT compiler/linker.
2014-08-28T23:07:24Z wasamasa: ah, I see
2014-08-28T23:07:39Z wasamasa: you only have the option of dumping the initial state to an executable
2014-08-28T23:07:48Z wasamasa: instead of dumping it at any time
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2014-08-28T23:08:08Z wasamasa: which sounds more dynamic and all that
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2014-08-28T23:13:17Z jasom: wasamasa: ultimately it just means that you can only dump an image once, since you can do just as much when compiling a program as you can when running it.
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2014-08-28T23:25:03Z drmeister: Gaahh.   ASDF adds more than 30 seconds to the 4 second startup time.
2014-08-28T23:25:10Z drmeister: Not good at all.
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2014-08-28T23:26:47Z drmeister: How does ECL do this?
2014-08-28T23:26:50Z jasom: drmeister: can you compile asdf to a dynamically loadable binary maybe?
2014-08-28T23:26:59Z drmeister: I just did.
2014-08-28T23:27:12Z jasom: loading a dll should take very little time
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2014-08-28T23:27:23Z drmeister: I mean, I did but I incorporated it into the startup library.
2014-08-28T23:28:02Z drmeister: It loads the dll and then reruns every top-level form to get to the final state.
2014-08-28T23:31:51Z drmeister: I wonder if I could implement some kind of JIT for data.
2014-08-28T23:32:47Z Bike: are the forms processed at all before you dump them? like, if you have defuns preserved as defuns and compile the function again every time, that's gonna be slow
2014-08-28T23:32:52Z drmeister has a problem here.
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2014-08-28T23:33:40Z drmeister: It shouldn't be compiling anything - although it's still a bit mysterious how everything works.  You'd think I'd have this figured out.
2014-08-28T23:34:07Z drmeister: If I COMPILE-FILE a file that contains (defun a (x y) (+ x y))   When does (+ x y) get compiled?
2014-08-28T23:34:23Z drmeister: I'd have to look at the macroexpansions.
2014-08-28T23:34:40Z drmeister: I don't have a minimal compiler.  Just the full compiler.
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2014-08-28T23:35:24Z Bike: well i mean. you should probably check that before you do something as involved as a jit.
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2014-08-28T23:35:57Z drmeister: What I know is that when I COMPILE-FILE a source file, it generates an LLVM module.   The LLVM module contains the compiled code for the functions.  It does not contain the S-expressions for the code.
2014-08-28T23:35:59Z AeroNotix: drmeister: are you going to release this Lisp implementation?
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2014-08-28T23:36:39Z drmeister: I'm just questioning everything right now.
2014-08-28T23:37:10Z drmeister: AeroNotix: Yes, I'm just waiting and waiting for some IP lawyers to give me the green light.
2014-08-28T23:37:15Z drmeister: LGPL
2014-08-28T23:37:34Z AeroNotix: drmeister: developed on work time?
2014-08-28T23:37:55Z drmeister: I'm a University professor.
2014-08-28T23:38:07Z AeroNotix: oh ok
2014-08-28T23:38:09Z drmeister: This is supposed to be a research tool.
2014-08-28T23:38:26Z AeroNotix: so how do you students feel about releasing their work?
2014-08-28T23:38:28Z AeroNotix: ZING
2014-08-28T23:38:45Z drmeister: It's not their work.  I'm the sole author.
2014-08-28T23:38:50Z AeroNotix: drmeister: it was a joke :)
2014-08-28T23:38:52Z AeroNotix: hence the ZING
2014-08-28T23:38:55Z slyrus: hrm... slime/SBCL symbol completion seems to be hanging emacs. anyone else seeing this?
2014-08-28T23:39:01Z AeroNotix: slyrus: what versions ?
2014-08-28T23:39:07Z AeroNotix: I've been running it all night/day
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2014-08-28T23:39:21Z AeroNotix: using arch, so I presume relatively recent versins
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2014-08-28T23:39:31Z |3b| hasn't, but my debug locations are off :/
2014-08-28T23:39:43Z |3b|: which reminds me i was going to update slime
2014-08-28T23:39:54Z slyrus: AeroNotix: latest slime, sbcl and emacs
2014-08-28T23:40:42Z AeroNotix: slyrus: get me the specific versions friend
2014-08-28T23:40:50Z AeroNotix: so then I can tell you if it's just you
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2014-08-28T23:44:54Z drmeister: I'm looking at the LLVM-IR code I'm generating.  It's perfectly reasonable.
2014-08-28T23:45:30Z drmeister: When I compile file a file containing (defun add (x y) (+ x y))
2014-08-28T23:46:19Z drmeister: It compiles the (+ x y) into a function called @ADD and in the initialization function for the file it uses that file pointer to create a closure and assigns it to the function slot of ADD.
2014-08-28T23:46:22Z stacksmi`: Is there a form of setf that works with multiple values?
2014-08-28T23:46:35Z drmeister: It's not terribly efficient but it's not crazy.
2014-08-28T23:46:48Z |3b|: stacksmi`: (setf (values ...) (...))
2014-08-28T23:46:52Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/f38b13008cea2c7a713b
2014-08-28T23:47:21Z |3b|: clhs m-v-s
2014-08-28T23:47:21Z specbot: multiple-value-setq: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_mult_2.htm
2014-08-28T23:47:31Z |3b|: ^ might also be similar depending on what you mean
2014-08-28T23:49:09Z drmeister: Hmmm, it seems to be invoking the @repl function three times.   Whaaaa?
2014-08-28T23:49:28Z stacksmi`: |3b|: I want to set several variables to the result of a function that returns multiple values...  Without intermediate multiple-value-bind...
2014-08-28T23:50:00Z |3b|: either of those should work for that
2014-08-28T23:50:08Z drmeister: No - it's not.  Scrolling was screwed up.
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2014-08-28T23:59:49Z drmeister: How do I get symbols to print with their package prefixed?
2014-08-29T00:01:32Z Bicyclidine: *print-readably* true, and *package* the keyword package, i think
2014-08-29T00:03:06Z drmeister: Bicyclidine - are you bike?
2014-08-29T00:03:10Z Bicyclidine: i am
2014-08-29T00:03:20Z drmeister: Ok,  I was never sure.  Thanks.
2014-08-29T00:03:38Z Bicyclidine: i figure it's a bit nicer looking than Bike_
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2014-08-29T00:04:50Z AeroNotix is now known as drmiester
2014-08-29T00:05:04Z drmiester: sup
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2014-08-29T00:09:17Z drmeister: drmiester is my nemesis.   He's Wario to my Mario.
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2014-08-29T00:29:05Z drmeister: I'm encountering a problem in ASDF.   The symbol COERCE-NAME is created in ASDF/FIND-SYSTEM but used when ASDF/FOOTER is the default package without being included within the ASDF/FOOTER package.
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2014-08-29T00:37:49Z Bicyclidine: and it's not exported?
2014-08-29T00:37:54Z drmeister: Why is ECL so fast and my system so slow?   Crap!   ECL doesn't include ASDF at startup.   I go (time (require :asdf)) and it loads in 0.1 seconds.   On mine it takes 25 seconds.   ECL is using ASDF ver 2.0  I'm using ver 3.0.  Did it get a lot bigger?
2014-08-29T00:38:18Z drmeister: COERCE-NAME is exported by ASDF/FIND-SYSTEM but that is not used by ASDF/FOOTER
2014-08-29T00:38:21Z drmeister: Hang on
2014-08-29T00:38:40Z Bicyclidine: it did get a lot bigger, but that's probably not sufficient to account for a factor of 250.
2014-08-29T00:39:01Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/06c4e58af570d334b270
2014-08-29T00:39:13Z Bicyclidine: probably. you could just load 3.0 in ecl and check.
2014-08-29T00:40:02Z drmeister: Sorry to dump so much but...
2014-08-29T00:40:23Z drmeister: #:coerce-name is exported on line 7258 from ASDF/FIND-SYSTEM
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2014-08-29T00:41:35Z drmeister: On line 11316 it declares and switches to ASDF/FOOTER without using ASDF/FIND-SYSTEM.   On line 11348 coerce-name  is used without a package prefix.
2014-08-29T00:42:46Z drmeister: I declare the :ECL *feature*.
2014-08-29T00:43:45Z Bicyclidine: hm, well, asdf/interface also exports coerce-name, but i guess asdf/footer doesn't use that either
2014-08-29T00:43:52Z oGMo: drmeister: can you profile?
2014-08-29T00:44:27Z drmeister: Could some kind soul take a moment and verify that I'm not going crazy and that COERCE-NAME is being used without being defined.
2014-08-29T00:44:27Z drmeister: Hang on - I'll try to load this into ECL - it should error out the same way.
2014-08-29T00:44:48Z drmeister: It does not error out the same way.
2014-08-29T00:45:01Z drmeister: oGMo: Yes, I profile with Instruments on OS X.
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2014-08-29T00:45:18Z drmeister: No functions stand out using 99.9% of the time.
2014-08-29T00:45:23Z |3b|: drmeister: yeah, doesn't seem to be accessible in that package
2014-08-29T00:45:42Z drmeister: My code seems to include some sort of "screw-the-pooch" instruction.
2014-08-29T00:45:47Z Bicyclidine: hm.
2014-08-29T00:46:04Z Bicyclidine: what if you load up ecl, switch to asdf/footer yourself, and run the conditonalized code by itself? what happens?
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2014-08-29T00:47:09Z oGMo: drmeister: GC? allocation? something not normally profiled? hrmm
2014-08-29T00:47:15Z drmeister: Undefined function.  However when I compile-file asdf.lisp and then load the .fas file it doesn't generate an error.
2014-08-29T00:47:55Z Bicyclidine: Huh. Well, I think you're right that that shouldn't work.
2014-08-29T00:48:06Z drmeister: oGMo: I can see the GC functions in the profiling. I've got to sit down with someone and seriously look at this.
2014-08-29T00:48:16Z Bicyclidine: maybe the condition is neve rhit?
2014-08-29T00:48:27Z Bicyclidine: (if (eq f 'module-provide-asdf) ...), i mean
2014-08-29T00:48:34Z Bicyclidine: or rather, it is hit.
2014-08-29T00:49:45Z drmeister: I always thought it was the reference counting or the lambda list processing of each function.  I know my compiler is much slower than that of ECL because LLVM is slow - that's a necessary evil.   I've made lots of improvements but now that I'm running doing things in ECL I see that I'm still way behind.
2014-08-29T00:49:46Z Bicyclidine: Or, okay, how about you load asdf.lisp in ecl, and then (require :something-else), I think that's when the lambda ought to actually be called.
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2014-08-29T00:51:00Z |3b|: yeah, compiling calls to functions that don't exist is legal as long as you don't call them until they exist
2014-08-29T00:51:41Z Bicyclidine: that's what i think is happening. maybe. i'm not sure how *module-provider-functions* works but this code path might be underexercised, revealing an asdf bug
2014-08-29T00:51:42Z |3b|: so asdf looks broken, but you should be able to compile/load it anyway
2014-08-29T00:52:10Z Bicyclidine: drmeister: oh, yeah, so does your loading asdf.lisp outright fail instead of just giving you an undefined function warning?
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2014-08-29T00:52:25Z Bicyclidine: in clasp, i mean
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2014-08-29T00:53:41Z drmeister: When I load the file into Clasp the COERCE-NAME symbol is interned twice.  Once in ASDF/FIND-SYSTEM and again in ASDF/FOOTER
2014-08-29T00:53:50Z Bicyclidine: Sure.
2014-08-29T00:54:02Z Bicyclidine: I mean, how did you notice that, though. asdf should still work.
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2014-08-29T00:55:31Z drmeister: When I compiled ASDF into the startup library when it loaded it complained about COERCE-NAME, that's where I first noticed it.  But your point is a good one.  It shouldn't evaluate that code - right?
2014-08-29T00:55:48Z Bicyclidine: Right, unless that lambda in *module-provider-functions* is called.
2014-08-29T00:56:01Z Bicyclidine: (so i'd take a look at your equivalent of that variable, and see if funcall on them breaks)
2014-08-29T00:56:52Z drmeister: Well, no, it should evaluate it - those are all top-level forms are they not?
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2014-08-29T00:57:17Z Bicyclidine: Yes, it'll evaluate it, but the coerce-name call is in a lambda.
2014-08-29T00:57:29Z Bicyclidine: so that's accepted. you could define asdf/footer:coerce-name later.
2014-08-29T00:57:48Z Bicyclidine: but if you actually call the lambda without doing so, it'll try calling asdf/footer:coerce-name, which doesn't exist, and that's a full error.
2014-08-29T00:58:32Z drmeister: The *module-provider-functions* may be the culprit.  That's a implementation-dependent detail that I may not mimic properly.
2014-08-29T00:58:40Z drmeister: Probably don't mimic properly.
2014-08-29T00:59:03Z Bicyclidine: it's probably used by cl:require
2014-08-29T00:59:16Z drmeister: I declare EXT:*module-provider-functions* but I don't know what should be in it unless the ECL CL source or  ASDF is putting something in there.
2014-08-29T01:00:14Z |3b|: that part in asdf is updating it
2014-08-29T01:00:38Z |3b|: but unless you REQUIRE something, the function it puts there probably won't be called
2014-08-29T01:01:35Z |3b|: though i guess asdf may REQUIRE things, which might complicate it a bit
2014-08-29T01:02:32Z |3b| would say try adding a package prefix to that coerce-name and see if anything works better :)
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2014-08-29T01:04:47Z drmeister: In Clasp the ECL Common Lisp source code pushes a function into ext:*module-provider-functions*   ASDF pushes another.
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2014-08-29T01:05:32Z drmeister: I think I know what is going on.  After I load the startup library I REQUIRE one more library - that's where it must be failing
2014-08-29T01:06:03Z |3b|: yeah, it probably breaks REQUIRE on things that aren't loaded through ASDF
2014-08-29T01:06:13Z drmeister: It looks like a bug in ASDF.
2014-08-29T01:06:19Z Bicyclidine: yes.
2014-08-29T01:06:55Z drmeister: So if I replace that COERCE-NAME invocation with ASDF/FIND-SYSTEM:COERCE-NAME that should do it.
2014-08-29T01:07:39Z Bicyclidine: you should probably report it to them.
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2014-08-29T01:14:01Z drmeister: Alright - I clicked through 50 screens, signed up for an account, verified my email twice and submitted a bug report.
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2014-08-29T01:23:00Z ejbs: The Land of Lisp comic is a pretty good bedtime story. Good night.
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2014-08-29T02:01:15Z stacksmith: Xach: a quick ql question if you are around?
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2014-08-29T02:42:42Z Xach: stacksmith: was ist los?
2014-08-29T02:45:23Z Xach: stacksmith: maybe tomorrow.
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2014-08-29T02:46:08Z brucem: anyone know if any of the papers / materials on Harlequin's HARP survived the late 1980s?
2014-08-29T02:46:45Z brucem: I know that I'd seen something online from around then ... but can't seem to find it now.
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2014-08-29T02:52:25Z brucem: and I know it talked about "n register" vs "g register" ...
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2014-08-29T03:00:18Z brucem: Looks like http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.47.2525 is the closest surviving thing I can find.
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2014-08-29T03:04:56Z Lowfyr: Hello dear lispers, i finally decided that I want to dive into lisp as well (couldn'
2014-08-29T03:05:10Z Lowfyr: t decide between haskell and lisp at first)
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2014-08-29T03:07:24Z Lowfyr: I did a little research and figured it would be a good way to start with "The Little Schemer", later moving on to "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs".
2014-08-29T03:08:19Z Lowfyr: Would this be a good start?
2014-08-29T03:08:41Z Bike: those are both more for scheme (this channel is common lisp, and they're pretty different)
2014-08-29T03:08:53Z Bike: if you want to keep up with scheme you'd be better off in the #scheme channel
2014-08-29T03:09:06Z Lowfyr: Oh ok, didn't know that this channel was mainly for common lisp, sorry.
2014-08-29T03:09:12Z Bike: no problem
2014-08-29T03:10:18Z kyun: Scheme is a good start
2014-08-29T03:10:33Z Lowfyr: However my main goal would be to learn common lisp anyway. I just thought it would be better for me to start with scheme and then learn common lisp rather than the other way around.
2014-08-29T03:10:45Z kyun: And then you can use Common lisp or Racket
2014-08-29T03:11:17Z Bike: Lowfyr: you can learn more than one. possibly even at once. it's like walking and chewing gum! (this also covers haskell)
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2014-08-29T03:12:18Z kyun: I think OCaml or F# is better than Haskell for beginner.
2014-08-29T03:13:13Z Lowfyr: Oh ok
2014-08-29T03:13:21Z Bike: practical common lisp is good for cl, and learn you a haskell for great good is alright for haskell
2014-08-29T03:14:41Z kyun: The litter Scheme is good for FP
2014-08-29T03:15:32Z Lowfyr: As I said, I want to learn both scheme and common lisp. Just thought that the progression would feel more natural when moving from Scheme to CL
2014-08-29T03:17:58Z Lowfyr: So it would work as well to learn both Scheme and CL at the same time?
2014-08-29T03:18:06Z Bike: sure, why not, go whole hog
2014-08-29T03:18:07Z kyun: Oh, you moving from Scheme to Racket is more natural
2014-08-29T03:18:29Z Bike: personally i think people worry too much about what languages they should learn when
2014-08-29T03:18:32Z Bike: just go for it
2014-08-29T03:19:06Z rme: Neither the Little Schemer nor Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs is really very much about Scheme anyway.
2014-08-29T03:22:27Z Lowfyr: Ok, thank you guys =) Guess you'll see me hanging around in this channel more often in the future, hopefully not only asking questions, but answering some as well.
2014-08-29T03:22:30Z rme: (Good books, though)
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2014-08-29T03:42:07Z drmeister: Here's some profiling data on Clasp.  I profiled for about a minute while it was compiling source using compiled code.
2014-08-29T03:42:11Z drmeister: http://imgur.com/i81am48
2014-08-29T03:42:29Z drmeister: This is running the Boehm collector.
2014-08-29T03:42:58Z Bike: What's it casting?
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2014-08-29T03:43:44Z drmeister: At the top of the list is dynamic_cast - I replaced that in the MPS version.
2014-08-29T03:43:44Z drmeister: It's downcasting T_sp pointers to more specialized classes like Cons_sp etc.
2014-08-29T03:45:31Z Bike: so it like, makes a cons out of a T or something? huh.
2014-08-29T03:46:40Z drmeister: dynamic_cast isn't a problem anymore with the MPS GC.
2014-08-29T03:46:40Z drmeister: To explain:
2014-08-29T03:46:41Z drmeister: The static analyzer gathers every C++ class that I allocate and assigns each one of them a unique integer ID.   I search the class hierarchy in a depth first search and assign these integer IDs (Kinds) to each class.   Then I wrote a new dynamic_cast that checks the class of an object against ranges obtained from that search.
2014-08-29T03:46:41Z drmeister: The C++ dynamic_cast is very expensive, it crawls through the class hierarchy at runtime.
2014-08-29T03:46:50Z drmeister: Sort of.  Cons inherits from T.
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2014-08-29T03:48:38Z Bike: i bet i'd need to understand C++ ('s runtime) a lot better than I do to get it.
2014-08-29T03:48:39Z drmeister: If I pass a T_sp pointer to a function it may try to dynamic_cast that T_sp to different pointer types.
2014-08-29T03:48:39Z drmeister: Let me look for an example.
2014-08-29T03:49:14Z Bike: i've written a lisp in C before but I just did a union, so i think the only casting is lexical
2014-08-29T03:50:09Z drmeister: Here's an example. https://gist.github.com/drmeister/ded62b9fa7a70d0b03bd
2014-08-29T03:51:06Z drmeister: The approach I took gives you the same effect as a union except I do the dispatching differently.
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2014-08-29T03:51:22Z drmeister: With a union you write the Kind of the object in the header.
2014-08-29T03:51:39Z drmeister: Then test the kind and dispatch to different code based on that kind.
2014-08-29T03:51:53Z Bike: well i mean, i don't think static casts take any runtime time (checking the header does, of course)
2014-08-29T03:52:24Z drmeister: I can't use static casts because I don't know at runtime what type a T_sp is.  It could be anything.
2014-08-29T03:52:26Z Bike: what part of this code is the cast? the asChar()?
2014-08-29T03:52:55Z Bike: or the asOrNull, i guess
2014-08-29T03:53:30Z drmeister: The stuff in the if statements     The   if ( Str_sp str = obj.asOrNull() ) {...}    It looks like a lot of stuff but I think it compiles down to something that is as efficient as if ( obj->kind == Str_kind ) {...}
2014-08-29T03:54:09Z Bike: Wouldn't that allocate a Str_sp on the stack, separate from obj?
2014-08-29T03:54:33Z drmeister: The asOrNull inlines a dynamic_cast() and if that dynamic cast fails it returns NULL and the if expression is false.
2014-08-29T03:54:33Z Bike: ...actually, i didn't even know you could declare variables in an expression like that...
2014-08-29T03:54:48Z drmeister: It's a new C++ idiom.
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2014-08-29T03:55:01Z drmeister: Declaring variables in if statements.   The scope is the "then" clause.
2014-08-29T03:55:03Z Bike: ahhhhh.
2014-08-29T03:55:25Z Bike: bit messy for me. i think of variable declarations as putting something on the stack in most cases.
2014-08-29T03:55:59Z drmeister: The compiler takes care of it.   It may not even end up on the stack.
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2014-08-29T03:56:14Z drmeister: It may be in a register.
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2014-08-29T03:56:50Z drmeister: The key is - when I look at the profiling output - I don't single functions that stand out.
2014-08-29T03:57:17Z Bike: you're really sure that doesn't actually copy the T into a new str?
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2014-08-29T03:57:32Z drmeister: If I speed up dynamic_cast (like I did) then that will eliminate the first and third entry and the program gets 10% faster - yippee.
2014-08-29T03:58:11Z drmeister: Absolutely.   T_sp is a template class that stores a single pointer.
2014-08-29T03:58:17Z Bike: mrm.
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2014-08-29T04:00:07Z drmeister: Here's the asOrNull method:   https://gist.github.com/drmeister/c92cd93145afa35e431b
2014-08-29T04:00:28Z Bike: gctools being the mps thing?
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2014-08-29T04:00:54Z drmeister: It checks if the T_sp pointer is a real pointer and not a tagged pointer value and then invokes dynamic_cast.
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2014-08-29T04:01:27Z drmeister: gctools is the namespace that contains the code that interfaces to the GC.
2014-08-29T04:02:30Z drmeister: I should spend more time looking at the generated code.   I look at the LLVM-IR a lot but not the generated x86 assembly.   That's harder to get at.
2014-08-29T04:03:01Z Bike: Can you not use gdb?
2014-08-29T04:04:13Z drmeister: Oh god, that's a whole other issue.    GDB isn't supported on OS X.  LLDB is the OS X debugger.   LLDB sucks donkey you know what - it's broken in more ways than I can count.  I can get disassemblies from it.
2014-08-29T04:04:51Z Bike: well, not like i know how to use gdb for much more than diassemblies anyway.
2014-08-29T04:05:03Z Bike: Actually, wait, do you have the CL disassemble implemented? that woudl be way easier.
2014-08-29T04:05:07Z brucem: drmeister: Are you on HEAD? A few things are broken.
2014-08-29T04:05:31Z drmeister: I do have CL disassemble - it generates LLVM-IR.
2014-08-29T04:05:47Z drmeister: That's what I spend a lot of time looking at.
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2014-08-29T04:06:17Z drmeister: The LLVM backend lowers LLVM-IR to machine code.   My LLVM-IR doesn't look that crazy compared to what I get from C/C++ compilations.
2014-08-29T04:06:18Z Bike: oh, so not the machine code, gotcha.
2014-08-29T04:06:39Z drmeister: It's not great but it's not like I'm generating 100 instructions when I should be generating 1.
2014-08-29T04:06:59Z drmeister: Right - not the machine code.   The machine code is all that really matters.
2014-08-29T04:07:10Z Bike: would the IR have stack allocations?
2014-08-29T04:07:15Z drmeister: brucem: HEAD of what?
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2014-08-29T04:07:23Z brucem: drmeister: LLDB
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2014-08-29T04:07:51Z drmeister: I use the stock LLDB that comes with Xcode 5.1 - I've tried compiling LLDB a couple of times - it ended in tears.
2014-08-29T04:08:03Z brucem: drmeister: btw, I got my language allocated by the DWARF committee for inclusion in DWARF5 ... so that isn't impossible. :)
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2014-08-29T04:09:23Z drmeister: brucem: Sounds good.   I'm trying to figure out why my compiled code is so slow compared to ECL.
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2014-08-29T04:12:33Z drmeister: For instance.  When I'm in ECL and I use (time (load "asdf.lisp"))
2014-08-29T04:12:44Z drmeister: It takes 0.7 seconds.
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2014-08-29T04:13:30Z drmeister: On my system it takes a lot longer (it's running now).
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2014-08-29T04:13:49Z drmeister: 143 seconds.   That's obscene.
2014-08-29T04:14:22Z drmeister: We must both be reading and compiling each s-exp.
2014-08-29T04:14:44Z drmeister: What is mine doing that takes 100x longer?  Damn, damn, damn.
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2014-08-29T04:15:19Z drmeister: How do I even figure this out.  Profiling give no clues.  It's not like there's a function screw-the-pooch that is taking 99.9% of the time.
2014-08-29T04:15:39Z Bike: How about profile ECL and see where it spends its time?
2014-08-29T04:20:08Z drmeister: I loaded the asdf.lisp file 500 times: http://imgur.com/VaWJFHP
2014-08-29T04:22:11Z drmeister: So ecl_interpret is right up there at 7%.  I'm assuming thats the ECL bytecode compiler/interpreter.
2014-08-29T04:22:36Z Bike: looks like it might be a regular ol lisp evaluator.
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2014-08-29T04:24:12Z drmeister: Hmm, ECL slows down a lot after it runs for a while.
2014-08-29T04:24:23Z drmeister: Now loading asdf.lisp takes 2.4 seconds.
2014-08-29T04:24:46Z drmeister: How do you think it works?
2014-08-29T04:25:32Z Bike: i would guess (based on: nothing) that that's due to memory being full up so all that GC shufflin takes a bit longer.
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2014-08-29T04:26:04Z drmeister: I'm trying to quit - it's hanging.
2014-08-29T04:26:46Z Bike: uh. hm.
2014-08-29T04:28:00Z drmeister: That 0.7 seconds above is anomalous.  Now I'm getting 2 seconds even from a fresh start.
2014-08-29T04:28:59Z drmeister: When I load it 10 times it takes 24 seconds on ECL.
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2014-08-29T04:29:16Z drmeister: Still - mine is 70 times slower.
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2014-08-29T04:32:14Z slyrus: argh... cxml-rng broken on one machine, but not another... I feel like I've been down this maze before.
2014-08-29T04:32:29Z slyrus: evening folks
2014-08-29T04:32:55Z drmeister: I'm going to rattle off some things I've done in the past months that I hoped would speed things up considerably as well as things that are left to do.
2014-08-29T04:33:23Z slyrus: hoped and did or hoped and didn't?
2014-08-29T04:33:45Z drmeister: My calling convention now passes the first three arguments in registers and the rest in varargs.
2014-08-29T04:34:19Z drmeister: I switched from reference counting to Boehm and now the MPS garbage collector.  I now allocate memory and abandon it.
2014-08-29T04:34:50Z drmeister: The garbage collectors work and when I eyeball what the profiler tells me they are taking about 25% of the processing power.
2014-08-29T04:35:35Z drmeister: I haven't implemented immediate values yet - the code is there but I need to make a lot of changes.   Fixnums and Characters are boxed values stored on the heap.
2014-08-29T04:36:00Z slyrus: that will probably make a big difference
2014-08-29T04:36:23Z slyrus: unboxed arithmetic was the thing that first brought me to SBCL
2014-08-29T04:36:32Z drmeister: Non-local exits are done using C++ exception handling.   GO, THROW, RETURN-FROM are all implemented by throwing C++ exceptions.  This turned out to be essential to interoperate with C++.   If you don't do this, you break RAII.
2014-08-29T04:37:32Z drmeister: slyrus: That may be although compilation doesn't use a lot of integer arithmatic.
2014-08-29T04:37:57Z slyrus: ah, I wasn't clear on what "things" we were talking about speeding up :0
2014-08-29T04:37:59Z slyrus: :)
2014-08-29T04:38:13Z drmeister: But it's in the plan.  My smart_ptr objects support tagged immediate values.   I don't use them universally yet.
2014-08-29T04:38:24Z drmeister: Clasp, my Common Lisp compiler.
2014-08-29T04:39:02Z slyrus: yes, I knew that part, but the question is are we speeding up the compiler or the code produced by the compiler
2014-08-29T04:39:11Z drmeister: I'm not sure how to figure out what the problem is.  Profiling has not been very illuminating.
2014-08-29T04:39:40Z drmeister: Speeding up the code produced by the compiler.  That will speed up the compiler.
2014-08-29T04:41:04Z slyrus: perhaps in this case, but that's certainly not universally the case. one can imagine a smarter but slower compiler that produces faster code.
2014-08-29T04:41:09Z drmeister: I'm not sure where the problem is though.  What if its when I call C++ functions that the interface is really slow for some reason?   Or the lambda-list processing for functions.  There would be a drag on the whole system. A death by a thousand cuts.  It might not show up in profiling.   Gah.
2014-08-29T04:41:45Z Bike: i have heard that c++ exception handling is slow, but that's hearsay and you're probably not using much in the way of exits anyway
2014-08-29T04:41:52Z drmeister: Sure, the more optimization you do the longer things it can take.
2014-08-29T04:42:04Z drmeister: I can see that in the profiling.
2014-08-29T04:43:23Z drmeister: http://imgur.com/i81am48
2014-08-29T04:44:16Z drmeister: This is the first profiling I posted above.   The fourth line down "libunwind::DwarfDECache..."   that is all invocations of GO/THROW/RETURN-FROM
2014-08-29T04:44:22Z drmeister: 3.2%
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2014-08-29T04:48:04Z slyrus: argh... something between SBCL 1.1.16 and now broke cxml-rng parsing for me.
2014-08-29T04:50:04Z drmeister: (defun a (x y) (+ x y)) (time (dotimes (i 100000) (a 1 i))) --> 3.5 seconds on my system
2014-08-29T04:50:48Z drmeister: I can increase the loop 100 times on ECL and get a similar time.   Here unboxing and boxing integers might make a big difference.
2014-08-29T04:52:20Z slyrus: yes, I'd guess that's the case
2014-08-29T04:53:18Z drmeister: Well, maybe it's time to take that plunge.
2014-08-29T04:54:41Z slyrus: and new SBCL can't build old SBCLs. when did that happen?
2014-08-29T04:54:46Z slyrus: argh...
2014-08-29T04:55:01Z drmeister: bitrot
2014-08-29T04:55:20Z Bike: do they even try for that? i thought they just wanted old ones to build new ones
2014-08-29T04:56:35Z slyrus: bisection is handy. I suppose I could use another lisp to build it, but that seems ... wrong
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2014-08-29T05:34:31Z pillton places bet on the backquote changes.
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2014-08-29T05:55:10Z slyrus: interesting... good bet, but i don't think so
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2014-08-29T05:56:06Z slyrus: well,1.2.1 is bad which I think predates the backquote changes
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2014-08-29T06:11:13Z slyrus: so... where are the gray-stream specs?
2014-08-29T06:11:43Z slyrus: I think the problem is that cxml-rng's gray-stream stream-read-char impl returns a nil and SBCL's expects either a character or :eof. NIL is neither of those.
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2014-08-29T06:16:44Z pillton: Hmm, the best I can come up with is http://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/mailman/message/32497282/
2014-08-29T06:18:19Z slyrus: that's about the right time frame... still bisecting but getting close.
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2014-08-29T06:24:21Z slyrus: Ok, so, yeah, that looks like the breaking change. The culprit is cxml-rng's trivial-gray-streams:read-char method which returns NIL. I can fix the problem by instead returning :eof, but where is the gray-streams spec that says that's what's needed?
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2014-08-29T06:29:34Z pillton: How about http://www.nhplace.com/kent/CL/Issues/stream-definition-by-user.html
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2014-08-29T06:30:13Z pillton has to go.
2014-08-29T06:30:24Z slyrus: thanks!
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2014-08-29T09:50:19Z rick-monster: hi anyone have experience using https://github.com/kraison/vivace-graph-v3 ?  Struggling to fire it up and wondering if anyone had more luck...
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2014-08-29T10:25:33Z njsg: I wonder how easy is it to get a junior-level job around lisp
2014-08-29T10:25:45Z njsg: I like lisp, I just never had the chance to become a jedi master of lisp
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2014-08-29T10:29:50Z wasamasa: njsg: just need to know the right people
2014-08-29T10:29:57Z wasamasa: njsg: then everything's possible
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2014-08-29T10:49:35Z AeroNotix: njsg: easier if you also include Clojure
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2014-08-29T10:52:06Z wasamasa: njsg: and scheme
2014-08-29T10:52:27Z wasamasa wonders whether anyone managed to get a job for writing elisp
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2014-08-29T10:52:37Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: Technically anyone who uses emacs, right?
2014-08-29T10:52:42Z AeroNotix: I write a lot of elisp on work dime
2014-08-29T10:52:51Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: well no, I mean getting paid to specifically do that
2014-08-29T10:53:06Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: there have been some commercial emacs products
2014-08-29T10:53:21Z AeroNotix: Most recently I saw this erlang refactoring/debugging tool that had significant emacs integration
2014-08-29T10:53:29Z wasamasa: doesn't sound like something RMS would approve of :P
2014-08-29T10:53:41Z AeroNotix: you got the source
2014-08-29T10:54:05Z AeroNotix: they didn't ship .elc files or whatever
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2014-08-29T11:17:27Z dim: is froydnj (Nathan Froyd) around sometimes? I think I've seen him here right?
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2014-08-29T11:40:58Z dim: is it possible to "customize" princ with adding a print-object method?
2014-08-29T11:41:48Z dim: mmm, seems that it's not, as the object I have problem with has a print-object method
2014-08-29T11:42:09Z dim: the real question is about cl-who with-html-output-to-string usage of val
2014-08-29T11:42:19Z dim: usage of the str macro, sorry
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2014-08-29T11:57:27Z Krystof: dim: maybe you want set-pprint-dispatch?
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2014-08-29T11:58:17Z dim: actually it seems that princ is calling print-object, which I didn't realize, and I just wasn't loading simple-date (from Postmodern) which needs to be an explicit loading
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2014-08-29T12:06:59Z njsg: wasamasa: yeah, knowing people who know is definitely the best way :-)
2014-08-29T12:07:07Z njsg: I wonder if anyone knows of anything in the helsinki area, though
2014-08-29T12:08:39Z AeroNotix: I'd love it if it were in the Krakow area :)
2014-08-29T12:08:42Z AeroNotix: or some people
2014-08-29T12:08:53Z AeroNotix: the only other Lisper I know dresses up as an Elf at the weekend
2014-08-29T12:09:16Z H4ns: .. and because of that ...?
2014-08-29T12:09:33Z AeroNotix: H4ns: and because of that it's difficult to talk to him. I've tried several times
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2014-08-29T12:13:35Z AeroNotix: he's just very odd
2014-08-29T12:13:35Z H4ns: heh.  well.  why do you choose a weird programming language if you are not prepared for weird people?  :)
2014-08-29T12:13:36Z AeroNotix: haha perhaps, there's a level for me though :)
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2014-08-29T12:13:36Z njsg: AeroNotix: have you tried to talk to him in quenya?
2014-08-29T12:13:36Z AeroNotix: H4ns: do you work for a specific company or do you contract?
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2014-08-29T12:13:36Z H4ns: AeroNotix: i work for a specific company (mcna.net)
2014-08-29T12:13:36Z AeroNotix: are they hiring?
2014-08-29T12:13:36Z H4ns: AeroNotix: always
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2014-08-29T12:13:36Z AeroNotix: H4ns: that's in Berlin, right?
2014-08-29T12:13:36Z H4ns: AeroNotix: or fort lauderdale, fl.
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2014-08-29T12:13:37Z AeroNotix: H4ns: oh so you're out there right now?
2014-08-29T12:13:37Z H4ns: AeroNotix: no, i'm in berlin.  the lisp stuff is mostly here.
2014-08-29T12:13:37Z AeroNotix: aha, awesome
2014-08-29T12:13:37Z H4ns: (because i'm mostly here :D )
2014-08-29T12:13:37Z AeroNotix: H4ns: lots of people or?
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2014-08-29T12:13:50Z H4ns: AeroNotix: not yet, but it is growing.
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2014-08-29T12:14:04Z AeroNotix: H4ns: that's great to hear, Lisp!
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2014-08-29T12:28:08Z njsg: there's one company here that'd maybe use lispy things, but... I'm not sure I fit their bill
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2014-08-29T13:25:54Z hlavaty: njsg: there are two sbcl ex-hacker which switched to clojure when joining zen robotics in helsinki
2014-08-29T13:26:03Z hlavaty: s/which/who
2014-08-29T13:26:26Z njsg: I have seen zen robotics, I am actually considering sending a CV there
2014-08-29T13:26:43Z njsg: although I had no idea they used clojure (perhaps I just didn't read the page that well)
2014-08-29T13:27:01Z hlavaty: good luck!
2014-08-29T13:27:18Z njsg: but I should definitely wrote a cover letter and send them the cv; I mean, my major was robotic systems, and I suppose they do something with robotics
2014-08-29T13:28:52Z Krystof: they should not be ex-hackers!
2014-08-29T13:29:01Z Krystof: let us call them slackers instead.
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2014-08-29T13:37:02Z dim: will that help convincing them to spend time on sbcl again?
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2014-08-29T13:44:14Z Krystof: almost certainly
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2014-08-29T13:53:00Z dim: hehe
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2014-08-29T13:57:34Z isoraqathedh: Would one ever say (every (complement some-predicate) seqs) instead of (notany some-predicate seqs)
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2014-08-29T13:59:41Z Xach: isoraqathedh: If you didn't care about seeming tasteful and stylish
2014-08-29T13:59:41Z H4ns: there is no limit to what one could say, but a sane person probably would not.
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2014-08-29T14:42:02Z caburity: Hello, I'm new (very new) the lisp world, and also in emacs
2014-08-29T14:42:15Z caburity: I gave it a read some materials that were suggested to me and started putting their hands dirty to understand better.
2014-08-29T14:42:19Z caburity: well
2014-08-29T14:42:31Z caburity: I started to use the environment Slime in the emacs and was funiocnando, but I don't know what I did, becouse I can no longer call the Slime anymore. Simply states that dom't recognize the command.
2014-08-29T14:42:43Z caburity: I Already delete and reinstalled emacs on OSX and nothing.
2014-08-29T14:42:48Z caburity: Can anyone help me on what should I do?
2014-08-29T14:42:48Z caburity: Thanks a lot!
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2014-08-29T14:43:08Z billstclair: caburity: using Quicklisp?
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2014-08-29T14:43:30Z caburity: clisp on emacs
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2014-08-29T14:44:08Z billstclair: Quicklisp is a nifty library manager. I think many of the libraries work in clisp, but I'm not sure
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2014-08-29T14:44:16Z billstclair: So I guess you're not using it
2014-08-29T14:44:30Z billstclair: Hold on while I paste my non-quicklisp .emacs code
2014-08-29T14:44:30Z eudoxia: caburity: did you install SLIME from Quicklisp?
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2014-08-29T14:45:25Z caburity: eudoxia: no
2014-08-29T14:46:11Z caburity: billsrclair: ok. Thanks
2014-08-29T14:46:32Z eudoxia: caburity: you'll probably want to do (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper) to install SLIME, then add this to your emacs file: (load (expand-file-name "~/.quicklisp/slime-helper.el"))
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2014-08-29T14:47:26Z billstclair: caburity: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143550
2014-08-29T14:47:42Z eudoxia: replace ~/.quicklisp with your Quicklisp path
2014-08-29T14:48:09Z billstclair: eudoxia's method is preferable, but will only work if you're using Quicklisp, which is a good idea, if you plan to do a real project where you need other people's libraries
2014-08-29T14:48:39Z eudoxia: Common Lisp without Quicklisp is not really a realistic choice
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2014-08-29T14:48:45Z caburity: I am beginner in this world. I'll try to do that and Etam suggesting return.
2014-08-29T14:48:49Z caburity: Thanks
2014-08-29T14:49:17Z billstclair: eudoxia: agreed, but if you're just learning lisp, you can do a lot before you need Quicklisp
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2014-08-29T14:51:25Z Xach: I think it's easier now that you can use the emacs package system to install slime.
2014-08-29T14:51:46Z billstclair: Right. There's now an emacs package system. Haven't tried that yet
2014-08-29T14:51:56Z Xach: It used to be a real pain to get slime checked out, known to emacs, and running within emacs under the appropriate buffers.
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2014-08-29T14:52:13Z Xach: I haven't tried it either. I use quicklisp and quicklisp-slime-helper to set it up.
2014-08-29T14:52:20Z billstclair: as do I
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2014-08-29T14:52:33Z Adlai wonders what happens when the emacs package system and quicklisp sit down for a drink with the OS package manager
2014-08-29T14:53:16Z Adlai: it'd be nice if the emacs package manager used quicklisp to install slime :D
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2014-08-29T14:53:41Z Xach: Not sure I agree
2014-08-29T14:53:49Z Xach: You might not want quicklisp at all!
2014-08-29T14:53:56Z Adlai: but... why?
2014-08-29T14:54:09Z Xach: Philosophical or practical or any number of other reasons
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2014-08-29T14:55:05Z Xach: For some reason, cl-ppcre-unicode-test builds for me on debian 7 but not debian 6 under what otherwise seem to be identical configurations.
2014-08-29T14:55:08Z Adlai: what we really need is a common package architecture, and delegation between domain specific package managers!
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2014-08-29T14:55:23Z Xach: Grand Unified Radical Package System
2014-08-29T14:55:35Z Xach: radical meaning awesome in this case
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2014-08-29T14:56:39Z Adlai: all that would really be needed is for "higher-level" package managers (like the OS package manager) to be aware of the "lesser" ones (like quicklisp, ELPA, etc) and know how to talk to them
2014-08-29T14:56:52Z Adlai: but this is a problem for OS hackers to figure out!
2014-08-29T14:56:56Z Adlai pretends to go back to work
2014-08-29T14:57:20Z oGMo: Xach: steve jackson games might quibble
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2014-08-29T14:57:45Z Fare: Adlai: I believe NixOS has that for many languages
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2014-08-29T15:30:03Z Xach: Fare: Do you know why uiop/asdf use ccl::command-line-arguments instead of ccl:*command-line-arguments-list*?
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2014-08-29T15:39:21Z Xach: http://slime-tips.tumblr.com/post/10887294446/viewing-large-arglists does not work for me - it prompts for SLIME Apropos: in the minibuffer. I'm using slime 2.8. Is there still a way to temporarily view large arglists?
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2014-08-29T15:40:51Z malice: Hey, I have a list of strings and want to change them to one string(add string). (reduce #'concatenate my-list) doesn't work... Is there function that allows me to do that?
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2014-08-29T15:41:37Z Xach: malice: (apply 'concatenate 'string my-list) is one option.
2014-08-29T15:41:38Z stanislav_: if the list isn't too long, (apply #'concatenate 'string my-list)
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2014-08-29T15:42:15Z Fare: Xach: if I once did, I forgot
2014-08-29T15:42:44Z Fare: is that a case of stripping arguments parsed by the implementation?
2014-08-29T15:42:46Z oGMo: that works here and i've been wanting something like that forever
2014-08-29T15:43:00Z Bike: (reduce (lambda (a b) (concatenate 'string a b)) my-list) would be another one
2014-08-29T15:43:06Z malice: Xach, thanks
2014-08-29T15:43:26Z Fare: malice: uiop:reduce/strcat
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2014-08-29T15:43:56Z stanislav_: Fare: great!
2014-08-29T15:44:25Z Xach: Fare: Not currently. the source code of ccl::command-line-arguments is: *command-line-arguments-list*
2014-08-29T15:44:28Z Fare: a naive (reduce 'strcat list) is quadratic
2014-08-29T15:45:51Z Fare: Xach: then I don't know. Maybe we should ask rme which is the best practice?
2014-08-29T15:46:09Z rme: It's best practice not to use unexported symbols.
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2014-08-29T15:46:12Z Xach: Right.
2014-08-29T15:46:34Z malice: Fare, what does it mean that it's quadratic?
2014-08-29T15:47:18Z Xach: Several other Quicklisp libraries use ccl::command-line-arguments and no libraries use *command-line-arguments-list*, as far as I can tell.
2014-08-29T15:47:24Z Xach wonders about the history
2014-08-29T15:47:26Z Fare: rme: did *command-line-arguments-list* use to be unexported?
2014-08-29T15:47:47Z Fare: or to not exist?
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2014-08-29T15:47:51Z Bike: malice: meaning it takes k*n² time for a my-list of length n, for some constant k
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2014-08-29T15:48:28Z rme: It's been exported since 2006.
2014-08-29T15:48:31Z malice: Ahh. Well, it isn't - it doesn't work :)
2014-08-29T15:48:34Z Fare: ok
2014-08-29T15:48:38Z malice: oh
2014-08-29T15:48:40Z malice: strcat
2014-08-29T15:48:41Z malice: nvm
2014-08-29T15:48:59Z Fare: Xach: I suppose I cargo-culted that from some code written before 2006, then.
2014-08-29T15:50:00Z Fare: possibly from cl-launch, which was first written in 2005.
2014-08-29T15:50:23Z Fare: malice: it's uiop:strcat
2014-08-29T15:51:28Z Fare: my, cl-launch has evolved quite a bit since then.
2014-08-29T15:52:41Z Fare found that after fixing source-registry initialization, the biggest overhead in cl-launch startup was... loading fasl's for asdf (plus whatever other software you load).
2014-08-29T15:52:55Z Fare: "FASt Loading" isn't very fast :-(
2014-08-29T15:53:05Z wasamasa: so that's what these letters mean
2014-08-29T15:53:24Z Krystof: Fare: it's faster than it was!
2014-08-29T15:53:27Z Fare: no, that's what they say, not what they mean. Don't trust propaganda.
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2014-08-29T15:53:29Z Xach: apply-argv, buildapp (boo), clfswm, gendl, lfarm, lisp-executable, lisp-gflags, portableaserve, and readable also have references to ccl::command-line-arguments.
2014-08-29T15:53:39Z rme: .slowl files
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2014-08-29T15:54:00Z Krystof: I have in the past suggested that sbcl's fasl extension should be slol
2014-08-29T15:54:14Z Krystof: last time I did that jsnell made them substantially faster
2014-08-29T15:54:53Z Fare: Maybe SBCL and/or CCL don't like the CLOS initialization from asdf.fasl ?
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2014-08-29T15:56:24Z Krystof:  (although really, FASL should be renamed SLOL, or LSSL (less slow loading))
2014-08-29T15:56:30Z Krystof: (said Fare in December 2008 :-)
2014-08-29T15:56:30Z shka: ave tux!
2014-08-29T15:56:32Z Xach is glad that buildapp will be the first quicklisp-provided program to use ccl:*command-line-arguments-list*
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2014-08-29T15:56:49Z Xach: Oops, I suppose I could lose that race pretty easily.
2014-08-29T15:57:15Z shka: commrads! to keyboadr!
2014-08-29T15:57:20Z rme: we keep making the same jokes
2014-08-29T15:57:40Z Krystof: Fare: you could generate a statistical profile report from cl-launch startup to see if there's an obvious sore thumb
2014-08-29T15:57:46Z Fare: as long as we forget them before the next time we say them...
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2014-08-29T15:58:16Z Fare: well, since it's all in loading asdf.fasl, that's easy to reproduce.
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2014-08-29T15:59:01Z Fare: (actually, on sbcl, it looks like the loading of cl-launch.sh itself takes a little bit of time, that would be the next bottleneck if the fasl issue were solved.)
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2014-08-29T16:00:00Z dim: just make a binary image?
2014-08-29T16:00:04Z dto: hi Fare.
2014-08-29T16:00:52Z Fare: (sb-sprof:with-profiling (:max-samples 1000 :report :flat :loop t :show-progress t) (load "asdf.fasl"))
2014-08-29T16:01:09Z Fare:   The value NIL is not of type SB-SPROF::SAMPLES.
2014-08-29T16:01:14Z Fare: has the usage changed?
2014-08-29T16:01:42Z Fare: dim: yes, I could translate cl-launch to CL. Then I could rename it buildapp
2014-08-29T16:02:26Z dim: or just use buildapp? even contribute to it?
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2014-08-29T16:03:11Z Krystof: Fare: I wouldn' thave expected so
2014-08-29T16:03:16Z Adlai: Fare: is fasl loading faster than #'load loading?
2014-08-29T16:03:16Z Fare: dim: I'd rather not do it at this time, but if someone added to buildapp all the features of cl-launch or the other way around, that would be great.
2014-08-29T16:03:29Z wasamasa: are you guys speaking of the ability to install scripts via quicklisp that execute common lisp programs?
2014-08-29T16:04:21Z Fare: restarted sbcl, now it works (!)
2014-08-29T16:04:39Z Fare: load-defmethod is all over the place
2014-08-29T16:05:10Z Fare:    1    129  12.9    129  12.9    129  12.9        -  (FLET #:CLEANUP-FUN-722 :IN SB-THREAD::CALL-WITH-RECURSIVE-SYSTEM-LOCK)
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2014-08-29T16:06:03Z Fare:    2     50   5.0     50   5.0    179  17.9        -  SB-KERNEL:%SXHASH-SIMPLE-STRING
2014-08-29T16:06:57Z Fare: which both seem to be part of:
2014-08-29T16:06:59Z Fare:    3     49   4.9     80   8.0    228  22.8        -  SB-IMPL::FIND-SYMBOL*
2014-08-29T16:07:22Z Krystof: defmethod is a pain because AMOP specifies that compute-discriminating-function gets called each time a method is added to a generic function
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2014-08-29T16:07:50Z Fare: no batching possible? :-(
2014-08-29T16:08:01Z Krystof: not in principle
2014-08-29T16:08:11Z Fare: could the standard c-d-f be "lazy"?
2014-08-29T16:08:16Z Krystof: it already is
2014-08-29T16:08:20Z Fare: :-/
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2014-08-29T16:09:53Z Krystof: we could be even lazier for standard-generic-functions
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2014-08-29T16:10:20Z Krystof: and now I wonder if I have made compute-discriminating-function substantially slower with my nice support of encapsulations
2014-08-29T16:11:40Z Krystof: if you have the ability, can you see if sbcl-1.1.14 (or earlier) is noticeably different in speed?
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2014-08-29T16:13:45Z jsnell: theoretically speaking the symbol lookups during fasl loading shouldn't need a hash computation
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2014-08-29T16:14:43Z jsnell: since if the fasl is portable between two images, so is the hash code known at fasl dump time
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2014-08-29T16:15:59Z jsnell: but that seems like a slightly silly optimization. (also, at least from that profile snippet I wouldn't have though that the recursive lock has anything to do with find-symbol)
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2014-08-29T16:25:50Z Fare: Krystof: looks like the new sbcl is 10-25% faster than 1.1.14 at loading the asdf.fasl
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2014-08-29T16:27:55Z drmeister: Fare: Hello, I'm wrestling with issues in loading asdf.fasl as well into my system.   It currently takes 25 seconds to load the natively compiled asdf system.
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2014-08-29T16:28:13Z Fare: anyway, I never quite understood how to read sb-sprof output, and it's trivial to reproduce the test: just profile the loading of asdf.fasl.
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2014-08-29T16:29:12Z Fare: drmeister, that's a lot.
2014-08-29T16:29:14Z drmeister: I'm trying to optimize everything else about my system because I'm about 70x slower than ECL.   That's a lot.
2014-08-29T16:29:16Z drmeister: Yes.
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2014-08-29T16:30:01Z Fare: 70x — wow. Even after "priming" ?
2014-08-29T16:30:03Z drmeister: I'm not really going anywhere with this although I'm struggling with figuring out where all the time is being spent.   Profiling with Instruments is almost useless.   There are no huge time consuming functions.
2014-08-29T16:30:56Z AeroNotix: drmeister: use a real profiler then ?
2014-08-29T16:31:08Z drmeister: What is a real profiler?
2014-08-29T16:31:13Z drmeister: What profiler would you recommend.
2014-08-29T16:31:21Z drmeister: I thought Instruments was a real profiler.
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2014-08-29T16:31:27Z AeroNotix: valgrind
2014-08-29T16:32:04Z Krystof: Fare: I won't try to optimize compute-discriminating-function then
2014-08-29T16:32:16Z drmeister: valgrind is a profiler? valgrind doesn't run on OS X sadly - and everything runs 10x slower under valgrind on linux.
2014-08-29T16:32:22Z AeroNotix: gprof, too drmeister
2014-08-29T16:32:29Z AeroNotix: Well get a better OS then :)
2014-08-29T16:32:55Z AeroNotix: drmeister: if Instruments does it by not affecting performance then they're probably not being as thorough as they could be
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2014-08-29T16:34:42Z drmeister: Instruments takes samples, records backtraces and reports on which functions are most often represented in the backtraces.   I thought that was what all profilers did.   valgrind runs the entire program in a slow virtual machine.
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2014-08-29T16:35:38Z oGMo: i think valgrind just wraps malloc/free
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2014-08-29T16:35:52Z nyef: I've heard tell of a profiler that ran an entire CPU in simulation, including cache effects. Horribly slow to run, but was apparently great for micro-optimization.
2014-08-29T16:35:53Z eudoxia: oGMo: that's for leak detection, but i think it does other stuff as well
2014-08-29T16:35:57Z oGMo: statistical profiling is useful but not perfect
2014-08-29T16:36:01Z oGMo: eudoxia: sure
2014-08-29T16:36:12Z Krystof: nyef: I think valgrind has a mode for that
2014-08-29T16:36:37Z nyef: The one I'm thinking of was by Symbolics when they were making the Alpha VLM.
2014-08-29T16:36:46Z Krystof: maybe not -- I might be thinking of cachegrind
2014-08-29T16:37:11Z oGMo: Krystof: yeah that sounds like cachegrind, but related, isn't it?
2014-08-29T16:37:29Z cite-reader: That's part of the Valgrind suite, I thought.
2014-08-29T16:37:38Z oGMo: yeah
2014-08-29T16:40:12Z drmeister: What I've realized is that figuring out how to speed up a program is a lot harder than just running a profiler on it.  Sampling a program periodically and recording a call stack tells you what functions are being called but when you are writing a language you can have overhead hidden all over the place that isn't neatly tucked into a single function.
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2014-08-29T16:41:17Z drmeister: I think that's what my situation is but the last couple of changes I've made to the code to speed things up have improved things by 2x but I still have 70x to go.   How do I figure out where those improvements lie?   What is the low-hanging fruit?
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2014-08-29T16:41:58Z slyrus: 6 more 2x changes and you're there!
2014-08-29T16:42:00Z drmeister: If someone could tell me how to figure that out I'd be most grateful.
2014-08-29T16:42:15Z |3b|: Xach: M-x slime-autodoc-manually is the long way if you didn't find it yet
2014-08-29T16:42:37Z Krystof: drmeister: I would guess that some of your operations have suboptimal asymptotic complexity
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2014-08-29T16:42:47Z drmeister: On the other hand, I currently embed a lot of debugging code in my code.  ECL doesn't do any of that.
2014-08-29T16:42:53Z |3b| wonders if emacs stopped doing whatever annoying thing made me turn off multiline autodo
2014-08-29T16:43:00Z Krystof: for example, one thing that happened once upon a time in SBCL was that many (many) objects had the same hash code
2014-08-29T16:43:21Z Krystof: that meant that it was very easy for what looked like O(1) lookups actually to take O(N) time
2014-08-29T16:44:16Z Xach: |3b|: thanks. i didn't.
2014-08-29T16:44:34Z Krystof: so, for a bunch of high-level operations (e.g. associating a name with a function; finding a symbol given its name) have a think about the way it's implemented, and whether there are any ways in which the implementation could either always be too asymptotically slow or could get progressively worse
2014-08-29T16:45:05Z Krystof: one way of finding that kind of case is to try loading successively larger asdf.fasl
2014-08-29T16:45:25Z Krystof: does loading an asdf.fasl compiled from the first half of the source file take half the time?
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2014-08-29T16:54:39Z drmeister: Krystof: I just split asdf.lisp into two even pieces just before the uiop/lisp-build package is defined
2014-08-29T16:55:25Z drmeister: I'm timing the compile-file of each.  Then I'll try loading each.
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2014-08-29T17:04:18Z drmeister: I suspect my problem has multiple causes.   Boxed fixnums, boxed characters, I'm inserting debugging calls (they set the current lineno/column and attach debugging information to activation frames).  I'm using activation frames on the heap for all bindings.  I throw/stack-unwind/catch C++ exceptions for every GO/THROW/RETURN-FROM.
2014-08-29T17:05:19Z drmeister: I suspect that those all add up to 70x slow down.
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2014-08-29T17:10:11Z drmeister: Time to compile-file asdf.lisp   first half: 146 seconds  second half: 161 seconds   entire thing at once: 480 seconds
2014-08-29T17:15:08Z drmeister: So it's not quite the sum of it's parts but is it enough to worry about?
2014-08-29T17:18:02Z ggole: So it takes ~60% of the time to compile the same thing split in two? That would be pretty suggestive of a asymptotic problem indeed.
2014-08-29T17:18:54Z slyrus: drmeister: you need more eyeballs on the code :)
2014-08-29T17:19:04Z drmeister: I do. I really, really do.
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2014-08-29T17:20:38Z drmeister: Do you think anyone will be interested.   (I'm at a bit of a spiritual low point and probably over-sharing).
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2014-08-29T17:21:31Z slyrus: definitely!
2014-08-29T17:21:36Z Fare: drmeister, can you disassemble?
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2014-08-29T17:21:49Z Fare: write micro-benchmarks?
2014-08-29T17:22:11Z drmeister: Does anyone care about:   A super-set of Common Lisp that interoperates smoothly with C++. The goal is to graft the two languages together as seamlessly as possible. The idea is that for speed a Clasp programmer would use C/C++/LLVM-IR and for complexity the programmer would use Common Lisp.
2014-08-29T17:22:29Z drmeister: Fare: I dissasemble to LLVM-IR.
2014-08-29T17:22:44Z drmeister: In the debugger I can disassemble to x86
2014-08-29T17:22:57Z Fare: Krystof, first half of the file with less CLOS is somewhat less slow
2014-08-29T17:25:02Z Fare: Krystof, uiop.fasl is about 40% of uiop+asdf, and takes .051s to load, vs .124s for asdf
2014-08-29T17:25:14Z Fare: .124 for the other "half"
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2014-08-29T17:25:48Z malice: #\a means letter 'a'. How can I get space? (I mean ' ')
2014-08-29T17:25:56Z Fare: Also, timing varies somewhat more for asdf.fasl than for uiop.fasl.
2014-08-29T17:26:10Z Bike: malice: #\  or #\Space
2014-08-29T17:26:24Z malice: Bike, Both should work?
2014-08-29T17:26:29Z Bike: probably
2014-08-29T17:26:34Z malice: Comforting :)
2014-08-29T17:26:44Z francogrex: a few days ago I said I was disappointed with Linj. Now after I insisted on learning it better I realize I was very wrong. it IS very impressive and its scope is bigger than I have originally thought.
2014-08-29T17:26:50Z drmeister: (sigh) I need to get this open sourced.  Then I'll see if people find it useful and want to contribute and help me get this thing running faster.   I don't think I've made too many mistakes.  I think it will run a lot faster with a better compiler and using the DWARF debugging info rather than inserting debugging calls into the code.
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2014-08-29T17:28:23Z |3b|: drmeister: if nothing else, some people find optimizing/debugging an entertaining hobby :)
2014-08-29T17:28:44Z |3b|: (at least when it is someone else's debugging/optimizing :p )
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2014-08-29T17:33:02Z jasom: drmeister: all I care about is what you've used clasp for; I want the advanced grovelling of C++ code.
2014-08-29T17:33:39Z francogrex: I like optimizing code and then disassembling it to see the most impressive assembly come out
2014-08-29T17:33:57Z jasom: francogrex: there is something very satisfying about that indeed
2014-08-29T17:34:38Z francogrex: jasom: yes and attaching gdb to that code and stepping through it.
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2014-08-29T17:39:21Z Fare: francogrex, you mean this? https://github.com/xach/linj
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2014-08-29T17:40:28Z Fare: drmeister, isn't clasp already on github?
2014-08-29T17:40:59Z francogrex: Fare: yes. I am loving it now. It's a very intelligent design. It was my own ignorance that blinded me when I first assessed it. Now I see that it is very good.
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2014-08-29T17:41:31Z francogrex: could be taken as a model for other languages
2014-08-29T17:44:20Z Fare: I'll have to have a look at some point, then. Thanks for the recommendation.
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2014-08-29T18:17:40Z Fare: drmeister, so is your code on github?
2014-08-29T18:17:55Z Fare: you don't have to make a big official release to get more eyes on your code
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2014-08-29T18:18:35Z Xach: The code is not on github. The process must be approved by lawyers.
2014-08-29T18:18:44Z Fare: lawyers? ouch.
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2014-08-29T18:20:34Z jasom: Fare: it get's worse: not corporate lawyers, but university lawyers.
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2014-08-29T18:26:57Z jasom: So in the past month I learned that they only way to customize indenting in the majority of OSS source-code focused text editors is to compile a dll
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2014-08-29T18:27:19Z jasom: I was looking at adding at least crummy lisp indentation support.
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2014-08-29T18:35:42Z oGMo: why aren't you using emacs?
2014-08-29T18:35:51Z jasom: I am using emacs
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2014-08-29T18:37:27Z jasom: Requiring emacs is a non-starter in getting a lot of people to start using lisp though.  I didn't switch to emacs for editing code until evil-mode.
2014-08-29T18:37:50Z jasom: Note that I had been using emacs as a lisp debugger for a while at that point though.
2014-08-29T18:38:48Z jasom: actually the evil-mode thing is a lie; I was using vile with a bunch of my own elisp to make it more like vim for about a year.
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2014-08-29T18:40:04Z drmeister: Fare: Are you still on?
2014-08-29T18:40:11Z Fare: yes
2014-08-29T18:40:38Z drmeister: Yeah, I'm waiting for lawyers to say it's ok to release.  It is on github for what it's worth but not accessible.
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2014-08-29T18:41:01Z Fare: ok
2014-08-29T18:41:06Z drmeister: My speed problems are not asdf's problems.   Clasp needs a lot of optimizations.
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2014-08-29T18:41:28Z drmeister: What I am struggling with is what CREATE-IMAGE is supposed to do.
2014-08-29T18:41:58Z drmeister: I guess I want it to link a bunch of llvm bitcode files together and compile and link in prologue and epilogue code - right?
2014-08-29T18:43:07Z drmeister: And I'm not being precise - ASDF:CREATE-IMAGE calls ECL's c::builder function that appears to link a bunch of object files together and compile and link in prologue and epilogue code.
2014-08-29T18:43:38Z drmeister: So I want to mimic C::BUILDER   (pardon me if we've gone over some or all of this).
2014-08-29T18:43:52Z Fare: drmeister, yes, that's basically what it does
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2014-08-29T18:44:26Z drmeister: How does it work into the work-flow of ASDF?
2014-08-29T18:44:50Z Fare: see image-op and program-op in bundle.lisp
2014-08-29T18:45:07Z Fare: after you're done compiling, gather the object files, create a program
2014-08-29T18:45:14Z Fare: by linking
2014-08-29T18:45:35Z drmeister: What is the difference between image-op and program-op?   Is there a library-op?
2014-08-29T18:46:27Z drmeister: I have an executable and I already compile and link an image file that get's loaded when the executable starts up.   Do I want to generate other libraries and load them with ASDF?
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2014-08-29T18:47:47Z drmeister: s/get's/gets/
2014-08-29T18:49:18Z Fare: there is a lib-op
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2014-08-29T18:49:59Z Fare: image-op creates a new lisp image that has the same command line interface and repl as the current implementation, just with more software built in
2014-08-29T18:50:31Z Fare: program-op has the software built-in and gives control of the command-line startup to some main function
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2014-08-29T18:51:23Z Fare: on ECL and MKCL, program-op can short-circuit UIOP for startup, using prologue and epilogue
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2014-08-29T19:09:44Z wasamasa: hmm
2014-08-29T19:09:47Z drmeister: I see.  So image-op generates an image that builds onto the current image - it would need all of the 70-odd bitcode files that I currently generate and link to generate a new image that extends the current image.
2014-08-29T19:09:56Z wasamasa: I quite like the color github has chosen to mark common lisp projects
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2014-08-29T19:11:08Z drmeister: Is program-op supposed to generate a stand-alone executable?
2014-08-29T19:11:32Z drmeister: Sorry for the slow response - I get pulled away sometimes to deal with other things.
2014-08-29T19:11:35Z pjb: njsg: it's not easy to find lisp jobs because there aren't a lot of them. Try: http://www.ravenpack.com/company/careers/
2014-08-29T19:12:27Z ircbrowse: Fare, does your name come from fare as in fee or fare as in to do/make?
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2014-08-29T19:18:04Z njsg: pjb: yeah, the problem is that I guess being rare makes it even more difficult to have positions for people with only a small amount of experience
2014-08-29T19:18:05Z jasom: ircbrowse: I assumed it was a contraction of François-René
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2014-08-29T19:18:52Z njsg: zen robotics, even if it was just mentioned because people moved *from* lisp when they got there, does sound like an interesting choice
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2014-08-29T19:20:30Z jasom: Either that or a the catalan first-person form of "to create"
2014-08-29T19:20:48Z drmeister: Fare: Ping ^  (no hurry)
2014-08-29T19:21:46Z jasom: But IIRC Faré is Parisian so the catalan idea is a bit of a stretch.
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2014-08-29T19:24:48Z Clarice: I heard that many French know Spanish
2014-08-29T19:24:56Z Clarice: Most of the spaniards I've met know French, at least.
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2014-08-29T19:27:04Z njsg: do they know a lot of it?
2014-08-29T19:27:18Z Ven: Clarice: in french schools, you either learn german or spanish
2014-08-29T19:27:20Z njsg: at least in portugal french is part of mandatory education, but it's not like people use it enough to remember it
2014-08-29T19:27:27Z Ven: (in addition to english) – which mostly explains why
2014-08-29T19:27:34Z njsg: learning at school != being able to actively use it and understand it
2014-08-29T19:28:00Z Xach: Let us discuss such things in private messages or elsewhere.
2014-08-29T19:28:01Z Ven: njsg: Clarice's sentence was "I heard that many French know Spanish"
2014-08-29T19:28:18Z njsg: oh
2014-08-29T19:28:27Z Ven: I was merely answering to that
2014-08-29T19:28:42Z jasom apologizes for sending the channel off topic
2014-08-29T19:28:45Z njsg: I did read that as "I heard that many Spanish know French"
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2014-08-29T19:29:52Z pjb: njsg: not necessarily. You'd be surprised what commercial enterprises may do.
2014-08-29T19:31:32Z pjb: Ven: the choice of language in French schools is much wider than that.    But most learn English, at least nominaly.
2014-08-29T19:31:48Z Ven: pjb: well, as a french student, no, it's not much wider
2014-08-29T19:32:07Z pjb: For example, I learned Russian and Hebrew in addition to English.
2014-08-29T19:32:11Z Clarice: Both of you two are French, I recall. :P
2014-08-29T19:32:23Z Ven: you might be able to learn some more in some highschools, but mine certainly didn't. at least, not until last year ;)
2014-08-29T19:32:33Z Ven: well, I wish I were able to learn those!
2014-08-29T19:32:38Z pjb: Nowadays, I even know students learning Chinese in collèges.
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2014-08-29T19:33:27Z Ven: Really? That's so neat. I guess this is a good example of "your experience may vary" :)
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2014-08-29T19:34:07Z pjb: Basically, AFAICS, it depends mostly on gathering in the same place a sufficient number of students with a professor able to teach the language.
2014-08-29T19:34:37Z Ven: ah, but that's mostly workshops, right? It's not like they get marks based off it, do they?
2014-08-29T19:34:42Z pjb: And censors and provisors are motivated to provide those, since it's a way of selecting :-)
2014-08-29T19:34:49Z Ven: (well, not sure "workshop" is the right word.)
2014-08-29T19:35:16Z pjb: No, for main or second language.
2014-08-29T19:35:24Z njsg: pjb: hm, a dream come true would be a job like that here in the capital area!
2014-08-29T19:35:34Z Ven: well, that's quite the luck :).
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2014-08-29T19:35:55Z pjb: For example, the year I started college, (6e) there weren't enough demand for Russian, so I chosed English 1st, Russian 2nd, but two years later there were, and my brother took Russian 1st.
2014-08-29T19:36:17Z pjb: njsg: think again.  Marbella is much better than a capital!
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2014-08-29T19:36:47Z njsg: pjb: I live in the capital, I'm not planning to move a lot right now
2014-08-29T19:37:03Z pjb: Ah, if you want a lisp job, you will have to move.
2014-08-29T19:37:13Z njsg: then I'll pass for now
2014-08-29T19:37:15Z pjb: There's on average one company per country, AFAICS :-/
2014-08-29T19:37:31Z njsg: there are several companies here with people who seem to be into functional programming
2014-08-29T19:37:48Z njsg: in fact, there are so many companies here that I'd not be surprised if some actually used lisp in an active way
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2014-08-29T19:38:08Z njsg: a friend of mine once mentioned that in his company they were looking for people with lisp skills, I should actually try that one
2014-08-29T19:38:18Z pjb: Of course, once inside a company, yuo may still be able to use lisp for some projects.
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2014-08-29T19:38:35Z pjb: lisp skills is not the same as lisp job.
2014-08-29T19:38:51Z pjb: They as lisp skills because they know lispers are usually better programmers.
2014-08-29T19:39:07Z pjb: But they can very well make you write php or cobol.
2014-08-29T19:39:25Z pjb: or java.
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2014-08-29T19:57:28Z AeroNotix: I'll move any where for a lisp job pretty much
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2014-08-29T19:58:57Z AeroNotix: especially the netherlands
2014-08-29T19:59:36Z pnpuff: I would not like a lisp job ... I prefer to use lisp at job :-)
2014-08-29T19:59:48Z AeroNotix: pnpuff: all of my wat
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2014-08-29T20:00:31Z pnpuff: if it's possible, of course
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2014-08-29T20:08:58Z Clarice: AeroNotix: I think he means there's a difference being hired to maintain some giant CL code base from the early 90s and actually 1) making the conscious choice to use lisp for a new project along with 2) leading and designing the project
2014-08-29T20:09:00Z AeroNotix: pnpuff: have you ever been as far as decided to go look like lisp?
2014-08-29T20:09:20Z AeroNotix: Clarice: I'm really impressed with that interpretation.. it makes sense
2014-08-29T20:09:32Z Clarice: AeroNotix: I don't know why you're impressed but thanks :P
2014-08-29T20:10:20Z AeroNotix: Clarice: 95% of the people I work with don't speak English and I wasn't able to parse that sentence
2014-08-29T20:10:23Z Fare: drmeister, image-op is currently too dumb to know what's already loaded. It builds an image for the system you specified, excluding what was otherwise already loaded.
2014-08-29T20:10:53Z Fare: ircbrowse, I like to think of the italian as more befit than the english, in this case.
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2014-08-29T20:12:01Z Fare: (actually, I think of Catalán as purer romance language than Italian, French or Castellano Spanish)
2014-08-29T20:12:30Z shka: Fare: the only pure romance language is Latin :P
2014-08-29T20:12:37Z shka: good night all
2014-08-29T20:13:19Z Fare: latin is bastard as hell. I once fancied writing a programming language with latin grammar... ouch.
2014-08-29T20:13:41Z shka: Fare: it is not for writing programs
2014-08-29T20:13:44Z shka: ;-)
2014-08-29T20:13:53Z Clarice: Are there context sensitive programming languages?
2014-08-29T20:13:54Z Fare: I soon enough realized that
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2014-08-29T20:14:12Z Clarice: AeroNotix: Well, I thought it was clear enough
2014-08-29T20:14:37Z shka: Clarice: well, if lexical typing counts...
2014-08-29T20:14:50Z shka: than almost everything is context sensiteve
2014-08-29T20:14:59Z Clarice: shka: I think it does, but I also think there's a lot more to "context" sensitive than lexical scope and binding
2014-08-29T20:15:13Z Clarice: Anyway, this isn't lisp related, sorry :P
2014-08-29T20:15:40Z shka: well, all this oop is context dependent in a fundamental way
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2014-08-29T20:15:47Z shka: since object is context for method
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2014-08-29T20:16:01Z Bicyclidine: if you just mean parsing, there are lots of languages you can't parse with a CFG, including... lisp!
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2014-08-29T20:16:50Z Clarice: I don't mean parsing, I actually mean semantics.
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2014-08-29T20:17:13Z Bicyclidine: pretty much everything uses context then
2014-08-29T20:17:32Z Clarice: I don't know enough to know what I'm talking about, to be honest.
2014-08-29T20:17:40Z Bicyclidine: it happens
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2014-08-29T20:25:08Z jasom: Clarice: Common-Lisp is not parsable with a CFG; in fact it is only parsable with a complete lisp implementation, due to reader macros
2014-08-29T20:25:30Z Clarice: Ah, that's true
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2014-08-29T20:27:47Z jasom: C is almost, but not quite context free
2014-08-29T20:28:22Z Bicyclidine: i wasn't sure if the parser hack constituted context sensitivity or just some weird semantic thing
2014-08-29T20:28:31Z Bicyclidine: the lexer hack, i mean
2014-08-29T20:28:43Z jasom: consider x * y; if theree was a typedef for x anywhere before that point, then it declares y as a pointer to x.  otherwise it multiples x * y.
2014-08-29T20:29:16Z Ven thinks of what convinced him to take lisp seriously: a reader-macro `]` that closed all opened parens
2014-08-29T20:29:35Z Ven: (probably throws all editors off)
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2014-08-29T20:30:15Z |3b| suspects that would be  #\( reader macro, not #\]
2014-08-29T20:30:36Z Bicyclidine: no, i've seen a ] like that before
2014-08-29T20:30:44Z |3b|: as a reader macro?
2014-08-29T20:31:05Z jasom: Bicyclidine: you'd need to redfine #\( not #\]
2014-08-29T20:31:05Z Bicyclidine: ...oh, i suppose that's true, yeah.
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2014-08-29T20:31:09Z |3b| is familiar with the syntax, just not sure you could implement it in CL by modifying #\]
2014-08-29T20:31:32Z |3b|: i think some of the old lisp machine era lisps did that
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2014-08-29T20:34:25Z rme: I think #\] was called a "superparenthesis" in Franz Lisp.
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2014-08-29T21:36:43Z ejbs: I just upgraded SBCL and I can't load Swank with the following error: Symbol "CODE-TRACE-TABLE-OFFSET-SLOT" not found in the SB-VM package. I use SLIME-2.6 from Quicklisp, anyone getting a similar error?
2014-08-29T21:37:07Z |3b|: upgrade slime as well
2014-08-29T21:37:19Z brown`: ... from its code repository.
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2014-08-29T21:39:54Z ejbs: |3b|: brown`: Yeah, I just did a git clone.
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2014-08-29T21:41:39Z AeroNotix: how comparable is guile to CL?
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2014-08-29T22:11:20Z Fare: pjb: maybe you can bootstrap asdf on top of scheme, this way :->
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2014-08-29T23:06:57Z didi: Hey, my first use of `mapl'. Exciting.
2014-08-29T23:07:58Z didi: Also (return-from function-symbol ...).
2014-08-29T23:08:25Z Xach: less exciting!
2014-08-29T23:08:35Z didi: :-P
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2014-08-29T23:50:02Z oGMo: i think trac.common-lisp.net died
2014-08-29T23:50:42Z oGMo: and is back just as i say that -.-
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2014-08-30T00:36:50Z gendl_: common-lisp.net is supposed to be migrated any day now
2014-08-30T00:37:02Z gendl_: including all the associated services
2014-08-30T00:37:29Z gendl_: it may be in transition over this weekend, but i don’t want to speculate.
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2014-08-30T01:32:07Z 
2014-08-30T01:32:07Z names: ccl-logbot dan64- drewc1 BlastHardcheese AdmiralBumbleBee girrig_ hyoyoung_ bege_ kobain isoraqathedh_d quasisane tokenrov1 ananna rme tadni` slyrus_ killmaster Aranshada|W_ karswell` rick-monster fikusz hiroakip Tuxedo_ mncoder_ Neptu yeltzooo CrazyEddy wizzo srcerer_ drmeiste_ Rptx _5kg Longlius kcj vlnx nand1 Jesin resttime nha_ GGMethos Ethan- ndrei MrWoohoo zeitue schoppenhauer logand`` dmiles_afk blakbunnie27 Intensity tkd arbscht zymurgy zwer
2014-08-30T01:32:07Z names: rk[imposter] bit` nug700 njsg froggey daimrod` necronian shwouchk innertracks1 Beetny wormphle1m Patzy_ _d3f phadthai cmbntr_ whartung jayne gingerale MoALTz_ BlueRavenGT Adlai __main__ Vutral gendl_ oleo ssake cy ggherdov zacharias oconnore defaultxr segv- yacks clapautius whmark milosn frodef` sprang joneshf-laptop stacksmith effy tajjada j0ni codeburg j_king lemoinem joga billstclair DrCode nicdev joast clog araujo heddwch acieroid wchun c3w easye axion
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2014-08-30T02:07:21Z average: is lisp typed or am I .. ?
2014-08-30T02:07:24Z average: is it ?
2014-08-30T02:07:58Z nightfly: Common Lisp is dynamically typed
2014-08-30T02:08:22Z average: hm
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2014-08-30T02:09:32Z average: nightfly: the wikipedia page claims the typing for CommonLisp is "dynamic, strong"
2014-08-30T02:09:35Z average: not sure what that means
2014-08-30T02:10:34Z defaultxr: iirc strong typing means values can't be implicitly converted to different types
2014-08-30T02:10:57Z defaultxr: i.e. you can't call a string function on an integer and expect the integer to be converted to a string automatically for you
2014-08-30T02:11:19Z average: ok
2014-08-30T02:13:14Z average: defaultxr , nightfly thanks
2014-08-30T02:13:46Z average: I want to rewrite some old code I have
2014-08-30T02:13:59Z average: and I think LISP might be a good idea
2014-08-30T02:14:05Z average: it's some math-related code
2014-08-30T02:14:34Z average: and I'm inclined to think LISP is a good bet because of Maxima's success
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2014-08-30T02:37:56Z pjb: average: and the dynamic part means in the case of lisp, that types are not attached to variables, but to values.
2014-08-30T02:38:46Z pjb: average: the consequence, is that most functions you will write, will actually be generic functions, whose type of parameter values are constrained only by the functions you pass those values to.
2014-08-30T02:39:43Z pjb: average: for example, if you write:(defun add (x y) (+ x y))  you can pass any type, such as integer, float, ratio, complex, and even mix of those types.
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2014-08-30T03:21:54Z average: pjb: afaik that's the case for Perl too
2014-08-30T03:22:35Z average: pjb: Python as well (given that x and y have an __add__ method defined in their respective types)
2014-08-30T03:22:53Z average: pjb: (and that x and y are of the same type)
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2014-08-30T03:23:30Z average: oh scratch that, they needn't even be the same type
2014-08-30T03:23:43Z average: + itself does not care what type x is or what type y is (in Perl and Python)
2014-08-30T03:25:08Z stanislav_: but in Lisp you can explicitly specify types if you need to
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2014-08-30T03:27:02Z pjb: of course, a lot of languages are copying on lisp.
2014-08-30T03:27:17Z pjb: in 2100, we will only program in lisp.
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2014-08-30T03:31:13Z average: pjb: but this is not state-of-the-art anymore, you must admit
2014-08-30T03:32:10Z average: so copying lisp in regards to that, now in 2014, is like saying "omg, BMW copied the design of wheels from roman chariots ! BMWs are such copycats !"
2014-08-30T03:34:38Z average: but that doesn't make me like LISP any less, I love it
2014-08-30T03:35:10Z pjb: You need to learn more.
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2014-08-30T03:37:11Z average: I should
2014-08-30T03:38:00Z average: pjb: yesterday I was able to get org-babel-tangle work with some Perl code
2014-08-30T03:38:29Z average: pretty cool that I can actually document code now (actually literate programming even)
2014-08-30T03:38:50Z average: POD documentation(that Perl has) is ok, but it's not that good
2014-08-30T03:39:00Z average: it's sort-of like Markdown, a limited markup language
2014-08-30T03:39:11Z average: Org-Mode however is the best documentation system ever
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2014-08-30T03:39:36Z average: I would love to see an org-perl just as there is an org-ruby right now
2014-08-30T03:40:00Z average: I believe if it gets visibility, CPAN will drop POD in favor of Org documents
2014-08-30T03:40:32Z oGMo: or everyone will drop perl in favor of just about anything else
2014-08-30T03:40:41Z average: oGMo: why would they do that
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2014-08-30T03:40:47Z oGMo: if you have to ask ...
2014-08-30T03:40:48Z average: oGMo: because you hate it ?
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2014-08-30T03:46:00Z average: oGMo: don't hate
2014-08-30T03:47:25Z average: oGMo: also, I've looked at Sphinx and reStructuredText, they are powerful too
2014-08-30T03:47:29Z average: still, I like Org better
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2014-08-30T05:03:06Z theethicalegoist: Is there a simple way to use a terminal pager at the repl?
2014-08-30T05:03:21Z H4ns: theethicalegoist: no
2014-08-30T05:04:51Z theethicalegoist: ok, thank you
2014-08-30T05:05:05Z Quadrescence: turn on MORE processing!
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2014-08-30T05:46:52Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-08-30T05:53:11Z drmeiste_: Morning beach.
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2014-08-30T06:10:12Z beach: drmeister: Did you figure out the reason for the slowness of your system?
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2014-08-30T06:10:55Z drmeister: Not yet.  I'm timing how many function calls and apply's I can do per second.
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2014-08-30T06:14:08Z brucem: drmeister: as an FYI ... I've been informed that RavenBrook people are going to be rather busy through September.
2014-08-30T06:14:43Z drmeister: brucem: Thanks.
2014-08-30T06:15:05Z brucem: drmeister: that isn't to say they're going to be dead to us though. :)
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2014-08-30T06:19:09Z drmeister: I'm trying to figure out if the way I'm passing arguments is the problem.  I don't use pointers directly.   I use pointers wrapped in a template class and pass then by value.
2014-08-30T06:19:32Z beach: drmeister: So you allocate memory for each argument you pass?
2014-08-30T06:19:34Z drmeister: It is just one pointer wrapped in a template class with no virtual functions.
2014-08-30T06:20:03Z drmeister: I don't know if C++ does.  It's 64bits wide.
2014-08-30T06:20:36Z drmeister: But copy constructors get called.
2014-08-30T06:21:47Z drmeister: When I time how many C++ functions I can call per second with -O0 (no inlining, no function eliding) I can make as many calls per second passing these smart_ptrs by value as I can passing the pointer they contain directly.
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2014-08-30T06:24:00Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/46a51924e31c60265883
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2014-08-30T06:25:13Z drmeister: Calls by value and calls that pass raw pointers run at about the same speed.  1.5e7/sec.  If I pass by const& it's faster - 6.6e7
2014-08-30T06:26:03Z brucem: drmeister: be careful and inspect the generated code. :)
2014-08-30T06:26:25Z brucem: drmeister: I caught LLVM taking advantage of some test data the other day in something I was evaluating and doing something surprising to the generated code.
2014-08-30T06:26:54Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/531d2cc6cfa3fa0175e7
2014-08-30T06:27:22Z drmeister: When I calculate how many APPLYs per second I can generate for a trivial, empty function (defun a () )
2014-08-30T06:27:53Z drmeister: It's a LOT less:  33830/sec
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2014-08-30T06:28:43Z chitofan: clhs flet
2014-08-30T06:28:43Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm
2014-08-30T06:31:07Z Bike: away
2014-08-30T06:31:11Z Bike: Sorry.
2014-08-30T06:32:42Z chitofan: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143562
2014-08-30T06:32:44Z chitofan: whats wrong?
2014-08-30T06:32:51Z chitofan: as far as i'm aware the parantheses should nbe correct
2014-08-30T06:33:29Z Bike: what error do you get?
2014-08-30T06:33:41Z chitofan: SORRY, nvm
2014-08-30T06:33:45Z chitofan: i changed from flet to labels
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2014-08-30T06:42:00Z chitofan: (member 'left (or 'left 'right)) gives me an error of "not type list"
2014-08-30T06:42:10Z chitofan: (find (or 'left 'right) 'left) gives me an error of "not type sequence"
2014-08-30T06:42:15Z chitofan: clhs find
2014-08-30T06:42:15Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_.htm
2014-08-30T06:42:21Z chitofan: what can i use instead?
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2014-08-30T06:43:07Z Bike: chitofan: what exactly do you think OR does
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2014-08-30T06:44:05Z chitofan: uhm
2014-08-30T06:44:09Z chitofan: return a boolean value?
2014-08-30T06:44:16Z chitofan: i tried (find '(left right) 'left)
2014-08-30T06:44:21Z chitofan: gives me a type error too
2014-08-30T06:45:10Z Bike: (find 'left '(left right))
2014-08-30T06:46:20Z chitofan: ...
2014-08-30T06:46:25Z chitofan: so sorry
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2014-08-30T06:55:31Z chitofan: why does this not work
2014-08-30T06:55:32Z chitofan: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143563
2014-08-30T06:55:37Z chitofan: with (check-merge-p '(2 3 4 5))
2014-08-30T06:56:07Z Bike: explain the way in which it is "not work"ing.
2014-08-30T06:56:32Z chitofan: it shouldnt return t
2014-08-30T06:56:40Z chitofan: when there arent any consecutive equal values in a row
2014-08-30T06:56:42Z chitofan: list*
2014-08-30T06:57:13Z Bike: try to figure out what happens on (check-merge-p '(5)).
2014-08-30T06:57:38Z chitofan: it returns true too
2014-08-30T06:57:43Z chitofan: whats happened in my nested if?
2014-08-30T06:57:46Z chitofan: happening*
2014-08-30T06:58:05Z Bike: well, think about it. first, it checks (eq (first '(5)) (second '(5)))
2014-08-30T06:58:25Z Bike: which is false.
2014-08-30T06:58:37Z Bike: then it checks if '(5) is nil, which is not. so it calls (check-merge-p '()).
2014-08-30T06:58:55Z Bike: and that call will check (eq (first '()) (second '()))
2014-08-30T06:58:59Z Bike: try that in your repl.
2014-08-30T06:59:21Z chitofan: yeah..
2014-08-30T06:59:59Z chitofan: so i should change my second if condition
2014-08-30T07:00:34Z Bike: you should probably do the second condition first.
2014-08-30T07:00:39Z Bike: also, instead of a nested if you can just do a cond.
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2014-08-30T07:03:00Z chitofan: gotcha
2014-08-30T07:03:05Z chitofan: i changed it :)
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2014-08-30T07:03:10Z chitofan: and it works!
2014-08-30T07:03:14Z chitofan: but whats the point of using cond?
2014-08-30T07:03:17Z chitofan: i need nested ifs
2014-08-30T07:03:33Z chitofan: sorry waot
2014-08-30T07:03:39Z chitofan: i should probably read more on cond first
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2014-08-30T07:04:22Z Bike: (if a b (if c d e)) is exactly like (cond (a b) (c d) (t e)), but the former's a bit easier to read
2014-08-30T07:04:26Z Bike: er, the latter is
2014-08-30T07:07:12Z chitofan: nested if works, cond doesnt for me
2014-08-30T07:07:13Z chitofan: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143564
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2014-08-30T07:09:54Z Bike: ((eq (first row) (second row)) t) is one condition, and then the last default case is (t (check-merge-p (rest row)))
2014-08-30T07:11:16Z chitofan: omg, the parantheses T_T
2014-08-30T07:11:19Z chitofan: sorry again..
2014-08-30T07:13:15Z chitofan: eh no
2014-08-30T07:13:38Z chitofan: eq gives t or f on its own
2014-08-30T07:13:51Z chitofan: i want the function to return t if 2 consecutive value equal
2014-08-30T07:13:55Z chitofan: otherwise recall the function
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2014-08-30T07:16:58Z beach: I am again getting excited about the SICL sequence functions.  In SBCL: (time (position t *l* :test #'eq)) => 9999999 [0.121 seconds]  but (time (loop for element in *l* for position from 0 when (eq element t) return position)) => 9999999 [0.047 seconds]
2014-08-30T07:17:33Z Bike: huh. wonder why.
2014-08-30T07:17:41Z beach: I take it SBCL doesn't have a special version of POSITION for a :TEST of EQ.
2014-08-30T07:19:22Z Bike: is *l* declared a list? that would seem to trigger a buncha inlining.
2014-08-30T07:19:53Z beach: Bike: It is not declared, but I don't see how that would make a difference.
2014-08-30T07:20:13Z Bike: because sbcl has a deftransform to do an inline expansion when it's a list
2014-08-30T07:20:30Z beach: Oh, for POSITION?
2014-08-30T07:20:35Z Bike: yes
2014-08-30T07:21:15Z beach: Still, that's a simple test to make in POSITION.
2014-08-30T07:21:39Z beach: Shouldn't require inlining to be fast.
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2014-08-30T07:22:52Z beach: I mean, in the generic version of POSITION, there could be a test for CONSP and EQ which would call the equivalent of the LOOP form I showed.
2014-08-30T07:25:37Z beach: In fact, that's what I do in SICL.  The problem I had last time I worked on the sequence functions was that there were too many cases, so testing became a nightmare.  I need to find a way to factor the code without making it unreadable.
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2014-08-30T07:27:03Z beach: I could do it with macros, but I find the resulting code is not so readable.
2014-08-30T07:28:21Z beach: chitofan: As Bike said, COND is equivalent to a sequence of IFs where each new condition is in the ELSE branch of the IF.
2014-08-30T07:28:38Z Bike: clearly you need a partial evaluator
2014-08-30T07:29:53Z beach: Bike: Exactly my idea too.
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2014-08-30T07:30:26Z beach: But I was thinking of doing the partial evaluation on the AST version of the code as opposed to the source code.
2014-08-30T07:32:54Z chitofan: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143564#1
2014-08-30T07:33:10Z chitofan: it gives me nil for whatever lists i give it to
2014-08-30T07:33:32Z chitofan: and i dont know why
2014-08-30T07:34:37Z beach: chitofan: What is the lone T in the last row?
2014-08-30T07:34:56Z chitofan: return true
2014-08-30T07:34:59Z beach: chitofan: You need to check your syntax against the definition of COND.
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2014-08-30T07:35:10Z chitofan: clhs cond
2014-08-30T07:35:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_cond.htm
2014-08-30T07:35:14Z beach: chitofan: So why is that clause not terminated after T?
2014-08-30T07:37:37Z chitofan: i rewrote it
2014-08-30T07:37:49Z chitofan: and it works
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2014-08-30T07:38:06Z chitofan: but is there a nicer way to write it?
2014-08-30T07:38:54Z chitofan: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143564#2
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2014-08-30T07:40:37Z beach: There is a correct way to write it at least.
2014-08-30T07:41:04Z beach: Your last clause means first evaluate T and throw it away, then evaluate (check-merge-p ...).
2014-08-30T07:41:35Z chitofan: so i can replace (null (null row)) with t
2014-08-30T07:41:36Z chitofan: :)
2014-08-30T07:46:46Z beach: chitofan: Maybe you should try out a few examples of COND before using it for your specific problem.
2014-08-30T07:47:27Z beach: And yes, the last clause of a COND is typically T.
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2014-08-30T07:53:02Z beach: chitofan: Is it working now?
2014-08-30T07:53:15Z chitofan: yeap, but i found another problem
2014-08-30T07:53:21Z chitofan: so i have to rewrite it
2014-08-30T07:53:32Z chitofan: it works for checking consecutive values
2014-08-30T07:53:38Z beach: chitofan: Sounds normal.  It is called "programming".
2014-08-30T07:53:45Z chitofan: but i want to make it give a t if it's something like '(2 empty empty 2)
2014-08-30T07:53:51Z chitofan: sure :)
2014-08-30T07:56:55Z chitofan: clhs setq
2014-08-30T07:56:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_setq.htm
2014-08-30T08:00:25Z beach: chitofan: You can use private messages to specbot.
2014-08-30T08:00:45Z chitofan: how?
2014-08-30T08:01:08Z beach: Like this: /msg specbot clhs car
2014-08-30T08:01:26Z beach: chitofan: Specbot is mostly useful for showing someone else an entry.
2014-08-30T08:01:47Z beach: chitofan: No need to show everyone what you yourself are thinking.
2014-08-30T08:03:43Z chitofan: okay :)
2014-08-30T08:03:45Z chitofan: thanks
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2014-08-30T09:08:50Z chitofan: is there a function that can tell if you similar values are in a list?
2014-08-30T09:09:21Z beach: chitofan: If they are all the same?
2014-08-30T09:09:41Z beach: chitofan: Or if only some are the same?
2014-08-30T09:09:48Z chitofan: only some are the same
2014-08-30T09:10:21Z beach: chitofan: But no particular object?  You just want to know whether *some* object occurs more than once?
2014-08-30T09:10:47Z chitofan: a number
2014-08-30T09:10:52Z beach: A particular number?
2014-08-30T09:10:53Z chitofan: yup should occur more than once
2014-08-30T09:10:59Z beach: Or any old number?
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2014-08-30T09:11:20Z chitofan: what do you mean by old number?
2014-08-30T09:11:31Z chitofan: yeah i suppose any number
2014-08-30T09:11:50Z beach: OK, then check if the list has the same length after you remove duplicates.
2014-08-30T09:12:13Z beach: (/= (length list) (length (remove-duplicates list)))
2014-08-30T09:12:22Z beach: clhs remove-duplicates
2014-08-30T09:12:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_dup.htm
2014-08-30T09:12:48Z beach: Not necessarily fast, but it will work.
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2014-08-30T09:14:01Z chitofan: ok, thanks!
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2014-08-30T09:20:15Z chitofan: can cond accept a variable as a condition?
2014-08-30T09:20:44Z beach: As usual with CL, any form will do, including a variable.
2014-08-30T09:20:44Z chitofan: instead of ((test) (body)) i do (variable (body))
2014-08-30T09:21:51Z chitofan: ok :)
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2014-08-30T09:22:32Z H4ns: sometimes i use ((setf foo (function-that-can-return-nil))) as a cond clause.  it does not feel great, but works well, too.
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2014-08-30T09:25:10Z beach: chitofan: Here is how to figure that out yourself:  You go to the CLHS page for COND.  You see that a test-form is a "form", and that "form" is a link.  You click on that link, and you get the glossary entry for "form".  The glossary entry says: "a symbol, a compound form, or a self-evaluating object".  Your question was about a symbol, so the answer to your question is right there.
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2014-08-30T09:26:25Z beach: chitofan: Learning to navigate the language specification is a large part of becoming proficient at programming in lisp.
2014-08-30T09:26:37Z chitofan: clhs cond
2014-08-30T09:26:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_cond.htm
2014-08-30T09:27:06Z beach: chitofan: And, as I said, use /msg specbot when you only need to see it yourself.
2014-08-30T09:27:43Z H4ns: or type "clhs cond" into your favorite search engine.  that'll work in almost all cases.
2014-08-30T09:30:14Z chitofan: hmm
2014-08-30T09:30:48Z chitofan: the clhs cond page doesnt say whether i can put more than one command in the body of a cond
2014-08-30T09:30:49Z chitofan: can i?
2014-08-30T09:31:17Z H4ns: it does.
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2014-08-30T09:31:29Z H4ns: what does "form*" mean?
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2014-08-30T09:32:16Z beach: chitofan: It says a "clause" is (test-from form*), right?
2014-08-30T09:32:33Z beach: chitofan: Do you know what the "*" means after the word "form"?
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2014-08-30T09:33:16Z chitofan: nope
2014-08-30T09:33:36Z beach: chitofan: It is standard CS notation for "zero or more occurrences of".
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2014-08-30T09:36:27Z beach: chitofan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backus%E2%80%93Naur_Form
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2014-08-30T09:38:56Z chitofan: but im not really asking about the clause
2014-08-30T09:39:11Z chitofan: i meant, can i use 2 or more commands if a condition evaluates to true in cond?
2014-08-30T09:39:19Z beach: *sigh*
2014-08-30T09:39:53Z beach: chitofan: You need to learn to match the syntax in the CLHS with what you write.
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2014-08-30T09:40:52Z beach: chitofan: If I write (cond ((zerop n) (f (1+ n))) (t (g n))), can you identify the clauses in that?
2014-08-30T09:41:12Z chitofan: zerop, f and t?
2014-08-30T09:41:30Z beach: chitofan: Now what on earth made you think that?
2014-08-30T09:41:40Z beach: chitofan: Notice that a COND form is defined to be the word COND followed by zer or more clauses.
2014-08-30T09:41:52Z H4ns: chitofan: look at the spec again.  it says that a cond clause has this syntax "(test-form form*)".  This needs to be read as "a cond clause consists of an opening parentheses, a test form an zero or more forms".
2014-08-30T09:42:06Z H4ns: chitofan: that answers your question.  you only need to understand it.
2014-08-30T09:42:56Z beach: chitofan: In my example there are two clauses: ((zerop n) (f (1+ n))) is one clause, and (t (g n)) is another.
2014-08-30T09:43:27Z beach: chitofan: If you don't get that right, you will never be able to understand what to write in order for your code to work.
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2014-08-30T09:46:01Z beach: chitofan: One more thing.  There is no glossary entry in the CLHS for the word "command".  The reason is that CL does not have any commands.  You need to get your terminology right in order to understand the CLHS entries.
2014-08-30T09:49:29Z chitofan: alright
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2014-08-30T10:48:02Z chitofan: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143565
2014-08-30T10:48:14Z chitofan: on (can-merge-p '(empty empty 2 2)) it returns NIL when it should return t
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2014-08-30T10:48:53Z chitofan: when it evaluates empty, goes to when .. and chomps off the list until it reaches 2
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2014-08-30T10:48:54Z H4ns: you probably have a bug in your function.  what are you doing to debug it?
2014-08-30T10:49:10Z chitofan: how do i debug it if it doesn't have an error
2014-08-30T10:49:23Z H4ns: you can insert print calls
2014-08-30T10:49:41Z H4ns: print returns its argument, so it is sometimes useful to debug intermediate steps.
2014-08-30T10:49:59Z H4ns: your "when" is not correctly indented.  and your code is hard to read because it is missing newlines.
2014-08-30T10:50:25Z H4ns: you can also use "trace" to trace function invocations.
2014-08-30T10:50:37Z H4ns: so (trace can-merge-p) might already reveal the problem.
2014-08-30T10:50:55Z chitofan: is this better?
2014-08-30T10:50:57Z chitofan: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143565#1
2014-08-30T10:51:00Z chitofan: the indentation
2014-08-30T10:51:04Z chitofan: okay, i will try trace
2014-08-30T10:51:25Z chitofan: trace returns nil
2014-08-30T10:51:35Z H4ns: yes.  you now need to invoke your function.
2014-08-30T10:51:48Z H4ns: if you're unsure, you could look up TRACE in the clhs to see what it does.
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2014-08-30T10:54:01Z chitofan: 0> Calling (CAN-MERGE-P (2 EMPTY 2))  <0 CAN-MERGE-P returned NIL
2014-08-30T10:54:04Z chitofan: how is this possible?
2014-08-30T10:54:18Z H4ns: it is your task to find out.
2014-08-30T10:54:25Z chitofan: isnt this as straightforward as it gets? 	((eq (first row) 'empty)  	 (can-merge-p (rest row))))
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2014-08-30T11:20:58Z chitofan: i still can't find the error..
2014-08-30T11:21:02Z chitofan: i documented every line
2014-08-30T11:21:06Z chitofan: and tested them out in the REPL
2014-08-30T11:21:08Z chitofan: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143565#2
2014-08-30T11:21:13Z chitofan: it always returns nil
2014-08-30T11:21:18Z chitofan: no matter how small or big or what's in the list
2014-08-30T11:21:41Z H4ns: chitofan: it always returns the what the last if evaluates to
2014-08-30T11:22:02Z chitofan: why isn't it reading the cond?
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2014-08-30T11:22:21Z H4ns: chitofan: "reading" is not the correct term to use.
2014-08-30T11:22:29Z H4ns: chitofan: it first evaluates the cond, then the if.
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2014-08-30T11:22:46Z H4ns: chitofan: the return value of the function is whatever the if evaluates to.
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2014-08-30T11:25:44Z chitofan: oh..
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2014-08-30T11:43:07Z dim: fighting against format clauses (~@[ ~] vs ~:[~*~; ~]) doesn't leave one with a good taste/feeling
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2014-08-30T11:57:47Z names: BitPuffin Vutral dmiles_afk joneshf-laptop chu Karl_Dscc oleo k-stz pgomes Hydan varjag zxq9 petrutrimbitas bit` malbertife vaporatorius Longlius attila_lendvai mishoo leo2007 isoraqathedh _5kg ivan\ chitofan wizzo slyrus Svetlana tadni fantazo beach gko Rotacidni arbscht tajjada H4ns yacks Sauvin edgar-rft vlnx gluegadget CrazyEddy OmegaAlpha yano alpha- mal_ justinmcp_ endou__ ineiros d4gg4d___ flip214 eMBee edran l3thal Okasu kyl z0d sellout brucem mood
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2014-08-30T11:57:47Z names: sytse c74d |3b| Tordek_ sjl- ircbrowse sbryant rvirding victor_lowther nightshade427_ marsbot momo-reina foom2 Neet aksatac_ DKordic` wooden_ Mandus_ tbarletz Subfusc_ _ku minion Blkt White__Flame lacedaemon _tca Amaan_ birk aerique_ johs ft imanc_ asedeno_ phf john-mcaleely benny K1rk_ felideon kalzz keen________ kirin` jdz nisstyre Sgeo_ Nshag WeirdEnthusiast jtz GuilOooo_ pok awaythrick funnel faheem_ chit honkfestival alchemis7 s_e cwandrews ferada
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2014-08-30T12:36:31Z AeroNotix: what libraries should I look at if I want to write a bar like xmobar?
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2014-08-30T12:37:35Z mood: AeroNotix: You'll probably want at least CLX
2014-08-30T12:37:50Z AeroNotix: mood: I was looking at that
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2014-08-30T12:42:26Z Trello: hey guys - quick question; amongst professional lispers is mapcar or loop-collect favoured?
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2014-08-30T12:43:00Z AeroNotix: Trello: you're not going to get a good answer for that really
2014-08-30T12:43:01Z dim: depends on whom you ask
2014-08-30T12:43:33Z Trello: ok, fair enough. Wondered if there was some sort of consensus I couldn't find. Thanks - I'll just use whichever I prefer
2014-08-30T12:43:38Z dim: Trello: I did prefer loop for even simple construct but am growing into using mapcar more often as I find it easier to read, no surprise effect
2014-08-30T12:44:06Z dim: (loop :for x :in l :collect (fn x)) --> (mapcar #'fn l)
2014-08-30T12:44:59Z dim: loop being awesome and full of subttleties, when reading code (maintenance) reading loop means "be extra careful now", reading mapcar is eaiser
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2014-08-30T12:45:26Z Trello: good point
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2014-08-30T12:48:56Z pnpuff: it's related to simplexity
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2014-08-30T13:09:16Z beach: Trello: I tend to use MAPCAR when I have an existing named function to apply, and LOOP when I need a more complicated form.
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2014-08-30T13:45:37Z petrutrimbitas: http://ideone.com/nUg09H
2014-08-30T13:45:45Z petrutrimbitas: why does it say that objects has no value ?
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2014-08-30T13:47:43Z H4ns: petrutrimbitas: paste the complete error message to paste.lisp.org
2014-08-30T13:48:05Z petrutrimbitas: it’s already on ideone
2014-08-30T13:49:09Z petrutrimbitas: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143566
2014-08-30T13:49:16Z H4ns: ah.  look carefully. you got a typo.
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2014-08-30T13:50:17Z petrutrimbitas: oh
2014-08-30T13:50:18Z petrutrimbitas: thanks
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2014-08-30T13:51:29Z petrutrimbitas: (compile-file "~/Documents/Projects/ai/Lisp/game.lisp") is this the right way to load the file ?
2014-08-30T13:52:00Z H4ns: you'll also want to load it
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2014-08-30T13:52:11Z H4ns: (load (compile-file ...)) would for for that.
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2014-08-30T13:52:33Z H4ns: you'd typically create an ASDF system and use asdf:load-system, though.
2014-08-30T13:52:35Z petrutrimbitas: ok, thank
2014-08-30T13:52:36Z petrutrimbitas: s
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2014-08-30T13:53:21Z H4ns: you can also compile directly from slime, which is what i do most.  i load the asdf system once, then recompile functions and files as i change them.
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2014-08-30T13:53:42Z petrutrimbitas: what do you load ?
2014-08-30T13:54:02Z H4ns: the asdf system.  asdf is the build system that most of us use nowadays.
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2014-08-30T14:07:55Z fedora: hi
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2014-08-30T14:35:56Z dim: (ql:quickload :project) ; is how I start a hacking session here
2014-08-30T14:36:45Z dim: the default is that it hides compiler output, so sometimes I would use (asdf:load-system :project) instead, but mainly I keep the code compiler warning free at editing time so at hack startup time I don't need to see all the messages
2014-08-30T14:37:14Z dim: C-M-x and C-c C-l are then the SLIME shortcuts I use the most
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2014-08-30T14:37:37Z dim: FWIW, petrutrimbitas, who quit already
2014-08-30T14:37:39Z dim: damn.
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2014-08-30T14:38:54Z AndroidShoutapop: Hi guys.
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2014-08-30T14:40:11Z piyo: im only here cuz of #emacs-lisp
2014-08-30T14:40:41Z AndroidShoutapop: What's the explanation as to why CL does the "closest %2 number if the fractional part is .5"
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2014-08-30T14:42:41Z beach: AndroidShoutapop: You mean for ROUND?
2014-08-30T14:42:52Z AndroidShoutapop: Mhm.
2014-08-30T14:42:57Z beach: AndroidShoutapop: That's a pretty standard rounding method.
2014-08-30T14:43:31Z AndroidShoutapop: beach: Why? And doesn't it involve more computation/
2014-08-30T14:44:32Z beach: AndroidShoutapop: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rounding  See "round half to even".
2014-08-30T14:44:59Z beach: AndroidShoutapop: It has good statistical properties.
2014-08-30T14:45:04Z AndroidShoutapop: beach: Yeah, I actually read that, but what are the advantages over...
2014-08-30T14:45:06Z AndroidShoutapop: oh.
2014-08-30T14:45:10Z AndroidShoutapop: beach: Okay, thanks. :D
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2014-08-30T14:46:27Z beach: piyo: Actually, this channel is about Common Lisp.
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2014-08-30T14:47:11Z piyo: yeah i know
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2014-08-30T14:47:35Z piyo: i am a total newb at CL.
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2014-08-30T14:49:27Z beach: piyo: What's wrong with #emacs-lisp?
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2014-08-30T14:49:45Z beach: [assuming that's an IRC channel]
2014-08-30T14:49:51Z piyo: its not a channel, lol
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2014-08-30T14:50:04Z beach: Oh.
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2014-08-30T14:51:02Z piyo: i want to use CL as my hobby language instead of ruby
2014-08-30T14:51:11Z beach: Sounds good.
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2014-08-30T14:51:41Z piyo: i guess I need to practice practical stuff like
2014-08-30T14:51:50Z piyo: shell scripting replacement
2014-08-30T14:52:03Z piyo: automation on windows/linux
2014-08-30T14:52:28Z beach: Sure, why not.  According to Fare, CL is excellent for scripting these days.
2014-08-30T14:52:29Z piyo: i think im intermediate level in Emacs Lisp
2014-08-30T14:52:34Z dim: shell scripting: have a look at uiop (source code, docstrings) and buildapp
2014-08-30T14:52:45Z piyo: :-) thanks
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2014-08-30T14:53:06Z piyo: i probably have to unlearn dynamic scoping
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2014-08-30T14:53:13Z dim: I wouldn't do #! scripts, the startup time is still too slow for my taste, but it's easy enough to build your application as an all-included binary
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2014-08-30T14:53:47Z dim: you can have dynamic scoping with CL with earmuffs and defvar/defparameter (and some more too, but later IMO) ; it took me a while to get into lexical scope by default
2014-08-30T14:53:54Z dim went to CL from Elisp too
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2014-08-30T14:54:15Z piyo: I find CL daunting though
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2014-08-30T14:54:32Z piyo: the libraries?
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2014-08-30T14:55:02Z beach: piyo: Is that a question?
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2014-08-30T14:56:37Z fahee308: drmeister: I looked for your clasp compiler online, but did not find it. are your sources not public yet?
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2014-08-30T14:57:05Z drmeister: fahee308: Not yet.  I'm waiting for lawyers to approve it's open-sourcing.
2014-08-30T14:57:14Z dim: piyo: so much things to learn about, so much fun ahead ;-)
2014-08-30T14:57:40Z fahee308: drmeister: oh, i see. thanks, that was a fast reply.
2014-08-30T14:58:09Z drmeister: No problem - thanks for asking about it.  I'm working on it and saw your message.
2014-08-30T14:58:09Z fahee308: it looks like an interesting project. what license are you planning to use?
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2014-08-30T14:58:18Z drmeister: I'm asking for LGPL.
2014-08-30T14:58:34Z fahee308: drmeister: is this because you work for Temple?
2014-08-30T14:58:38Z drmeister: Yes.
2014-08-30T14:58:43Z nyef: ... Must you go LGPL and not BSD or MIT?
2014-08-30T14:59:00Z fahee308: drok, thanks for the information. i look forward to hearing more about it.
2014-08-30T14:59:12Z fahee308: drmeister: sorry ^^
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2014-08-30T15:01:29Z fahee308: drmeister: what is the current level of usability?
2014-08-30T15:01:58Z drmeister: The ECL common lisp sources that I depend on are all LGPL.
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2014-08-30T15:04:03Z drmeister: fahee308: What are you looking for - there are lots of answers to that question.   It's missing a few dozen CL functions.  It has a compacting garbage collector (MPS).  It compiles to native code but it's not very optimized.
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2014-08-30T15:04:59Z fahee308: drmeister: i read your blog post, I certainly resonates with me. You did not find the current CL FFI adequate for your purposes?
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2014-08-30T15:05:28Z fahee308: drmeister: that was a vague question. I'm just wondering how far away it is from general usability, i guess.
2014-08-30T15:05:52Z fahee308: how does it compare in speed to say CCL or SBCL?
2014-08-30T15:05:58Z drmeister: Not very well at all.
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2014-08-30T15:06:29Z fahee308: drmeister: ok. well, hopefully you'll get some pick up from the community once you have your project public.
2014-08-30T15:06:50Z fahee308: writing a CL compiler from scratch is a big adventure.
2014-08-30T15:07:32Z drmeister: 200x slower?   I'm doing microprofiling now to try and identify the problems.  It's going to be a specialized tool to begin with. And I'm hoping developers come on board and want to help make it faster.   You can write code in it and run it.  If you have fast C++ libraries that you want to expose it will be very useful.
2014-08-30T15:07:47Z fahee308: Basing it on LLVM is certainly a good idea.
2014-08-30T15:08:12Z fahee308: drmeister: yes, i see. i guess making a CL compiler fast is a pretty hard thing.
2014-08-30T15:08:34Z drmeister: I'm starting to appreciate it in a very concrete way.
2014-08-30T15:08:53Z fahee308: and people want to use stuff that is fast. i do too, though I'm not so fixated on it as some people are.
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2014-08-30T15:09:36Z fahee308: Unfortunately the scientific programming community cares about speed to a somewhat excessive extent. to the exclusion of many other, also important things.
2014-08-30T15:09:42Z drmeister: If people want fast they should stick with what they have for now.
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2014-08-30T15:09:53Z drmeister: You aren't making me feel better.
2014-08-30T15:09:56Z fahee308: drmeister: possibly true.
2014-08-30T15:10:09Z fahee308: drmeister: i'm sorry. it wasn't intended to offend.
2014-08-30T15:10:40Z fahee308: I think it is a worthy project. Of course, that is just my opinion.
2014-08-30T15:10:57Z fahee308: An enormous amount of work too, no doubt.
2014-08-30T15:11:54Z drmeister: I hope it's a worthy project.  I'm questioning things now.
2014-08-30T15:12:26Z fahee308: drmeister: you must have learned a lot while doing it. that is worth much in itself.
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2014-08-30T15:12:56Z H4ns: drmeister: i hope you're not taking it as offense either, but given that you're interested in chemistry, i find clasp to be an ginormous yak :)
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2014-08-30T15:13:18Z fahee308: H4ns: yak?
2014-08-30T15:13:22Z H4ns: drmeister: like in "i want to analyze this molecular structure, let me implement a common lisp so that i can do it better"
2014-08-30T15:14:10Z H4ns: fahee308: the term is called "yak shaving"
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2014-08-30T15:15:38Z drmeister: H4ns: Probably.  But I thought it would be awesome to write in Common Lisp from now on while accessing C++ libraries.  Have my cake and eat it too.
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2014-08-30T15:16:03Z fahee308: H4ns: i see. I was not really familiar with that term before
2014-08-30T15:16:23Z H4ns: drmeister: i hope you manage to get it optimized to your satisfaction.
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2014-08-30T15:16:36Z H4ns: drmeister: did you get a good statistical profiler to work with your code yet?
2014-08-30T15:16:46Z fahee308: but given that the world wide programming and research community, and indeed corporations, have mostly abandoned CL, I think CL i sdependent on individuals to make further progress,.
2014-08-30T15:17:11Z fahee308: Both CCL and SBCL were in individual efforts to start with.
2014-08-30T15:17:20Z AeroNotix: I also get the feeling that since the community is relatively small, having disparate / competing implementations is somewhat harmful
2014-08-30T15:17:47Z fahee308: AeroNotix: maybe. I don't know enough to say. But wouldn't the best ones win out?
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2014-08-30T15:18:30Z AeroNotix: fahee308: after a period of time, yes
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2014-08-30T15:19:21Z H4ns: i don't think it is really harmful to have different implementations.  common lisp is not a language that could benefit from a single implementation that drives innovation.
2014-08-30T15:19:25Z fahee308: On the free side. it seems to me that most people use either CCL or SBCL. Certainly if you care about speed at all.
2014-08-30T15:19:42Z fahee308: So, it is not really so fragmented, at least as far as I can see.
2014-08-30T15:19:45Z drmeister: Since non of the implementations interoperate with C++ the aren't useful to me.
2014-08-30T15:19:50Z fahee308: I could be wrong, of course.
2014-08-30T15:20:01Z AeroNotix: drmeister: what about cffi?
2014-08-30T15:20:13Z fahee308: drmeister: but CL has a FFI that you can use C++ with, right?
2014-08-30T15:20:16Z H4ns: drmeister: right.  and as common lisp is standardized, there is no question as to what your implementation will have to support.
2014-08-30T15:20:34Z H4ns: cffi does not really support c++
2014-08-30T15:20:50Z |3b|`: fahee308: "CL" doesn't have an FFI, individual implementations do, and most of those don't handle c++ well
2014-08-30T15:21:02Z H4ns: actually, no implementation has a c++ ffi that cffi could map to.
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2014-08-30T15:21:23Z AeroNotix: surely making an implementation support c++ better would be easier than writing a whole new CL implementation from scratch?
2014-08-30T15:21:25Z drmeister: None handle C++ well.  Nothing handles C++ well other than boost::python and luabind.
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2014-08-30T15:21:38Z H4ns: AeroNotix: not really.  c++ is a complicated beast.
2014-08-30T15:21:51Z drmeister: It's a lot more complicated than you know.
2014-08-30T15:21:52Z fahee308: |3b|`, H4ns Ok. I haven't actually tried using C++ with CL. Part of my reason for trying to learn CL is to get away from C++.
2014-08-30T15:21:55Z H4ns: AeroNotix: as in really really complicated.  not just a bit.
2014-08-30T15:22:01Z |3b|: yeah, most things higher-level than C are hard to talk to :(
2014-08-30T15:22:03Z fahee308: Which at the best of times makes me want to vomit.
2014-08-30T15:22:11Z fahee308: drmeister: no offense
2014-08-30T15:22:15Z Bike: drmeister's lisp is heavily based on ecl anyway.
2014-08-30T15:22:22Z Bike: it's not like he did everything from scratch.
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2014-08-30T15:23:30Z fahee308: drmeister: i've been using boost python for the last few years (actually, most of a decade). It works very well, but is an incredible maintenance overhead.
2014-08-30T15:23:48Z fahee308: it is like trying to write in three languages at once.
2014-08-30T15:24:10Z drmeister: FFI's are worse.
2014-08-30T15:24:20Z fahee308: drmeister: i believe you
2014-08-30T15:24:48Z drmeister: With my approach there is the potential to have it fully automated anyway.   I've exposed the Clang compiler front end.   Writing a perfect groveler in Common Lisp is now possible.
2014-08-30T15:25:08Z fahee308: drmeister: like i said, it seems like a worthy project.
2014-08-30T15:25:26Z H4ns: drmeister: and, as you know: "first make it work correct, then make it fast".
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2014-08-30T15:25:40Z fahee308: i'd certainly be interested in giving it a whirl when it is publicly available
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2014-08-30T15:26:42Z drmeister: H4ns: Yeah, but when ASDF takes 30 seconds to load and you need ASDF you start profiling.
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2014-08-30T15:26:59Z drmeister: I think I'm insane.
2014-08-30T15:27:37Z drmeister: I have to step away for a little bit.  BBL
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2014-08-30T15:27:57Z fahee308: would anyone care to tell me what "a perfect groveler" is? I tried to google for it, but no luck.
2014-08-30T15:28:11Z fahee308: drmeister: i'm sorry, I didn't mean to upset you.
2014-08-30T15:28:19Z Oddity: fahee308, http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/The-Groveller.html
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2014-08-30T15:28:57Z drmeister: Don't worry about it.  It's not you.
2014-08-30T15:30:05Z drmeister: You know what kills me about things like that Groveller that was posted.   It exists but it's going to suck - and you will only discover that it sucks when you've put a month into it.
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2014-08-30T15:30:59Z drmeister: The only thing that can properly grovel C++ is a full C++ compiler.
2014-08-30T15:31:13Z |3b|: that's what cffi-grovel uses
2014-08-30T15:31:20Z |3b|: (well, a C compiler)
2014-08-30T15:31:51Z drmeister: Which one? GCC?
2014-08-30T15:31:58Z |3b|: whichever you tell it to use i assume
2014-08-30T15:32:07Z drmeister: How do you get the AST?
2014-08-30T15:32:16Z |3b|: it compiles a C program that prints out the requested information
2014-08-30T15:32:23Z |3b|: so works with any C compiler
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2014-08-30T15:32:58Z |3b|: using a specific compiler like clang or gcc only works to the extent you are linking to things that agree with that compiler
2014-08-30T15:33:48Z oGMo: fahee308: c2ffi! :P
2014-08-30T15:34:18Z |3b|: yeah, c2ffi has the same problem :)
2014-08-30T15:34:27Z oGMo: which?
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2014-08-30T15:34:34Z |3b|: using a specific compiler
2014-08-30T15:34:58Z AeroNotix: drmeister: this is what research projects are for
2014-08-30T15:35:03Z AeroNotix: figuring out if things work or not
2014-08-30T15:35:05Z oGMo: sure but that's not really a problem .. the ABI is a standard, and users don't need it
2014-08-30T15:35:17Z |3b|: "the" abi?
2014-08-30T15:35:21Z oGMo: i.e. it's not going to give something incompatible with gcc or your platform compiler
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2014-08-30T15:35:53Z oGMo: |3b|: yes, c2ffi --arch 
2014-08-30T15:36:13Z oGMo: the caveat of course is you may need platform headers, but
2014-08-30T15:36:35Z oGMo: that's not really a caveat vs partial layouts and guessing :P
2014-08-30T15:37:01Z |3b|: right, comparison is to just compiling a file at build time like groveller does
2014-08-30T15:37:19Z fahee308: Oddity: thank you
2014-08-30T15:37:50Z oGMo: right but then you assume the user has a compiler, headers, that it all works, etc, and even then you can only extract what you know to look for
2014-08-30T15:37:52Z fahee308: oGMo: c2ffi?
2014-08-30T15:38:02Z |3b| is probably mostly being silly at this point though, so i'll stop
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2014-08-30T15:38:08Z oGMo: fahee308: https://github.com/rpav/c2ffi
2014-08-30T15:38:23Z |3b|: oGMo: well, if you don't know about it, you probably aren't using it :p
2014-08-30T15:38:25Z fahee308: oGMo: thanks
2014-08-30T15:38:48Z oGMo: fahee308: and for CL purposes, cl-autowrap, shameless plug btw, but if you have issues let me know :p
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2014-08-30T15:39:49Z oGMo: |3b|: i mean, you have to input what you want out of it, which means keeping a copy of everything up to date.. your API might actually not care about the majority of struct members etc, but your users will
2014-08-30T15:39:51Z fahee308: oGMo: ok
2014-08-30T15:39:53Z oGMo: and constants etc
2014-08-30T15:40:24Z oGMo: imo it's all pretty ridiculous, but such is life
2014-08-30T15:41:18Z |3b|: drmeister: random performance issue one of my compilers ran into was doing run-time work for non-local exit scopes (blocks etc) that didn't actually have any non-local exits... not sure if that might apply to your compiler or not
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2014-08-30T15:50:33Z jackdaniel: hmph, have you seen this presentation? https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgit.savannah.gnu.org%2Fcgit%2Fguix%2Fmaintenance.git%2Fplain%2Ftalks%2Fghm-2014%2Fguix-ghm-2014.20140815.pdf (guix, scheme based userspace)
2014-08-30T15:53:18Z pjb: chitofan: in (can-merge-p '(empty empty 2 2)), empty is never evaluated!
2014-08-30T15:53:25Z pnpuff: Is the groveller going by c99?
2014-08-30T15:53:32Z pjb: You have used a QUOTE and a QUOTE prevents evaluation!
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2014-08-30T15:58:28Z oGMo: need something like quickutil for local stuff heh
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2014-08-30T15:58:49Z oGMo: or quickutil needs documentation on how to use local stuff :P
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2014-08-30T15:59:23Z pjb: piyo: I've got the impression that emacs has more programmers than Common Lisp, and that there are more applications and libraries in emacs lisp than Common Lisp.  I would say that emacs is more daunting.
2014-08-30T16:00:43Z wasamasa: I'd say emacs is the largest open lisp project
2014-08-30T16:00:49Z wasamasa: but as of language usage?
2014-08-30T16:00:51Z wasamasa: I'm not sure
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2014-08-30T16:01:02Z AeroNotix: pjb: honestly I don't see the majority of emacs users writing Lisp
2014-08-30T16:01:09Z AeroNotix: pjb: I find they just copy it
2014-08-30T16:01:56Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: yeah, that
2014-08-30T16:02:07Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: the usage statistics are bloated by starter kits and all that
2014-08-30T16:02:16Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: dang starter kits
2014-08-30T16:02:27Z AeroNotix: waste of time
2014-08-30T16:02:27Z pjb: AeroNotix: Just considering the elisp code.  Of course, there are a lot more users.
2014-08-30T16:02:32Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: otherwise I wouldn't have held a recruiting talk about the topic if every emacs user were proficient in emacs lisp :P
2014-08-30T16:05:39Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: what do you mean by that?
2014-08-30T16:05:51Z wasamasa: that?
2014-08-30T16:06:30Z AeroNotix: the last thing you wrote
2014-08-30T16:06:34Z AeroNotix: I had trouble parsing it
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2014-08-30T16:16:52Z pnpuff: dang, every pro was once an amateur.
2014-08-30T16:17:20Z pnpuff: ;-)
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2014-08-30T16:22:50Z pjb: pnpuff: unfortunately, no.
2014-08-30T16:23:12Z pjb: I'd even say that the pro who weren't previously amateur soon become "experts".
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2014-08-30T16:31:18Z pnpuff: pjb: I can't handle the truth and I've not failed enough to be an expert :-)
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2014-08-30T16:35:25Z pjb: pnpuff: I mean that a lot of people become professionnal  just by default, not knowing what to do else, and give that  makes money, they just do it 7-5.
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2014-08-30T16:35:43Z pjb: s/give/given/
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2014-08-30T16:37:17Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: well, assuming a reasonable amount of emacs users knew their way around emacs lisp
2014-08-30T16:37:28Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: we'd have faster development and more bugs fixed in emacs
2014-08-30T16:37:56Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: sure, problem is: 1) lisp's image and 2) emacs lisp is a pretty terrible lisp
2014-08-30T16:37:59Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: however that's not the case which is why I gave a talk about the topic
2014-08-30T16:38:18Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: although I know perfectly well it's probably not going to help, but still
2014-08-30T16:38:20Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: could you give more info about the talk you gave (was it recorded)?
2014-08-30T16:38:40Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: there's no recording unfortunately, but I put it up on github: https://github.com/wasamasa/quasiconf-2014/
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2014-08-30T16:39:52Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: cool will check it out later
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2014-08-30T16:41:22Z njsg: what's with emacs' release cycle?
2014-08-30T16:41:35Z wasamasa: I hope it will pick up
2014-08-30T16:41:39Z njsg: it seems that 24 was an attempt to get as many bugs as they could in a simple release
2014-08-30T16:41:43Z wasamasa: but they're taking their time with the upcoming release
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2014-08-30T16:41:56Z wasamasa: three pretests already
2014-08-30T16:42:03Z njsg: if they have a slow release cycle, for the sake of whatever is sacred, please do not break cc-mode...
2014-08-30T16:42:22Z njsg: one would think it'd be the most used emacs mode, but maybe I'm wrong (are there better C modes?)
2014-08-30T16:42:25Z njsg: 7win 33
2014-08-30T16:42:29Z cy: you can always revert
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2014-08-30T16:43:01Z wasamasa: the cc-mode bugtracker is indeed scary to look at
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2014-08-30T16:44:39Z beach: wasamasa: Am I understanding the presentation correctly, that you are in favor of moving to Guile as the language for Emacs?
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2014-08-30T16:45:33Z wasamasa: beach: I'm in favour of people who see rewrites as the only solution to go for guile emacs instead of starting yet another one
2014-08-30T16:46:01Z beach: yet another what?
2014-08-30T16:46:04Z wasamasa: rewrite
2014-08-30T16:46:09Z beach: Got it.
2014-08-30T16:46:12Z wasamasa: that's all
2014-08-30T16:46:21Z wasamasa: haven't ever used guile or guile emacs, so I can't vouch for it
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2014-08-30T16:47:57Z stacksmith: wasamasa: Do you mean that a guile rewrite is a good thing as opposed to another one. Wait, please clarify
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2014-08-30T16:48:25Z beach: wasamasa: The grammar of your statement was a bit ambiguous.
2014-08-30T16:49:00Z stacksmith: wasamasa: Are you opposed to another non-guile rewrite, like a CL rewrite?
2014-08-30T16:49:11Z wasamasa: stacksmith: no, I mean that from a pragmatists' view it's better to spend your efforts on an alternative emacs implementation that does run existing elisp code and is close to becoming a drop-in replacement
2014-08-30T16:50:22Z stacksmith: wasamasa: Is that more doable with guile?
2014-08-30T16:50:37Z beach: So I guess Guile wouldn't qualify?  (Unless Guile can run Elisp these days).
2014-08-30T16:51:13Z wasamasa: ...
2014-08-30T16:51:18Z wasamasa: I'll just link to this: http://www.reddit.com/r/vim/comments/2ew4zx/how_does_neomacs_sound/ck3knfe
2014-08-30T16:51:32Z wasamasa: which points to http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/GuileEmacs#toc2
2014-08-30T16:52:00Z wasamasa: "As of the end of GoogleSummerOfCode 2014, the Elisp engine of [Guile] Emacs is fully replaced with that of libguile, and most things Just Work™."
2014-08-30T16:52:27Z stacksmith: Hmm.
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2014-08-30T16:54:55Z stacksmith: I did not realize there was that having a Guile VM is enough to turn any language into 'suitable bytecodes'.  That seems a little questionable.
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2014-08-30T16:56:56Z stacksmith: In my limited understanding, implementing Lisp in Scheme is harder then the other way around.
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2014-08-30T16:59:30Z beach: The are probably excluding CL from "any".
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2014-08-30T17:01:37Z stacksmith: OK, you can compile any reasonable language to any reasonable VM, I suppose.  However, why Guile?
2014-08-30T17:02:06Z wasamasa: because it's a GNU project targeted at becoming an universal way of extending GNU software?
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2014-08-30T17:05:40Z phadthai: the glib object integration might be worth it too for interoperation with gtk/gnome etc
2014-08-30T17:06:05Z wasamasa: anyways, this is getting rather offtopic and more appropriate for #emacs
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2014-08-30T18:11:47Z drmeister: I'm doing nanoprofiling on Clasp to figure out where the time is going.
2014-08-30T18:11:50Z AeroNotix: how can I remove a defmethod function?
2014-08-30T18:11:59Z AeroNotix: I accidentally forgot :after
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2014-08-30T18:14:01Z Bike: (remove-method gf (find-method ...))
2014-08-30T18:14:14Z drmeister: I haven't figured out a better way to profile other than to start a timer around a loop over some code and then turn off/on code inside of the inner loop.
2014-08-30T18:14:19Z drmeister: Hence: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/fbcf370b5567196bf94a
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2014-08-30T18:15:11Z drmeister: I also wrote some functions to time calling C++ functions by value, by const ref and by passing raw pointers.
2014-08-30T18:16:26Z drmeister: As I expected, calling C++ functions by value, by const ref and passing raw pointers makes no difference.  My pointer "values" are template classes that contain a single pointer.  Passing them by value invokes copy constructors in the debug build but in the optimized build everything is inlined and optimized to a single pointer copy.
2014-08-30T18:16:56Z drmeister: Results:   https://gist.github.com/drmeister/e3d8a3301fb511508f69
2014-08-30T18:18:06Z drmeister: I can call a four parameter C++ function about 600 million times a second
2014-08-30T18:18:45Z drmeister: Using my C++ version of APPLY in a similar loop I can make 1.3 million APPLYs a second.   That's 453 times slower than a C++ call.
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2014-08-30T18:20:46Z drmeister: That involves 1) a function lookup, 2) allocating a frame on the heap (I can move that to the stack), 3) copying arguments from a CONS into the frame 4) calling the function
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2014-08-30T18:22:35Z AeroNotix: Bike: thanks
2014-08-30T18:23:58Z drmeister: Then I (defun a () )  ;; empty function   and start applying #'A to no arguments : https://gist.github.com/drmeister/a3096a37a92883716501
2014-08-30T18:24:36Z drmeister: The big penalty (10x) comes with allocating/initializing the frame on the heap.
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2014-08-30T18:28:04Z |3b|: yeah, heap allocation sounds bad
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2014-08-30T18:29:52Z AeroNotix: Bike: here's another good way: M-x slime-inspect RET #'initialize-instance RET
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2014-08-30T18:29:59Z AeroNotix: Bike: then select the method to remove!
2014-08-30T18:30:02Z AeroNotix: amazing
2014-08-30T18:30:07Z AeroNotix: SLIME is really cool
2014-08-30T18:30:24Z drmeister: I've got code now to allocate frames on the stack using alloca and variable length arrays in C++ (both nonstandard).  I'm not sure why I have to use alloca in some cases and VLA's in another.
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2014-08-30T18:32:34Z nyef: How much overhead is involved in your heap allocation?
2014-08-30T18:33:14Z drmeister: This is the first time I'm able to put a number on it.
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2014-08-30T18:33:41Z |3b|: by heap allocation you mean normal c++ new?
2014-08-30T18:33:46Z drmeister: Here's what happens when I pass arguments. https://gist.github.com/drmeister/e6b49b1a7fe0c1d2b6b3
2014-08-30T18:34:20Z drmeister: |3b|:   I use the garbage collector allocators.   This is Boehm GC_MALLOC.   With MPS it would be a pointer bump.
2014-08-30T18:34:28Z |3b|: ah
2014-08-30T18:34:48Z drmeister: Theres also the cost of cleanup.  I'm not sure GC is happening in these tests.
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2014-08-30T18:35:34Z drmeister: I'm going to write a convenience function to run all stages and print slow-downs (ratios of successive tests).
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2014-08-30T18:42:22Z wasamasa: drmeister: is there any update on the copyright clearance?
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2014-08-30T18:43:57Z pjb: -
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2014-08-30T18:44:24Z dim: drmeister: may I ask what you're goal behing clask?
2014-08-30T18:44:52Z pjb: clasp?
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2014-08-30T18:45:17Z pjb: poor drmeister, he's been repeating it every day he connects to #lisp…
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2014-08-30T18:46:57Z fahee308: wasamasa: he said earlier he is waiting on he lawyers, or something
2014-08-30T18:47:03Z drmeister: I've talked to the IP people twice this week - they say their working on it.
2014-08-30T18:47:04Z drmeister: "Clasp is intended to be a super-set of Common Lisp that interoperates smoothly with C++. The goal is to graft the two languages together as seamlessly as possible. The C++ interoperation allows Common Lisp programmers to utilize widely available C++ libraries. Further, for speed a Clasp programmer can use C/C++/LLVM-IR and for complexity the programmer can use Common Lisp."
2014-08-30T18:47:35Z fahee308: 20:26  drmeister: I looked for your clasp compiler online, but did not find it. are your sources not public yet?
2014-08-30T18:47:42Z fahee308: 20:27  fahee308: Not yet.  I'm waiting for lawyers to approve it's open-sourcing.
2014-08-30T18:47:57Z drmeister: s/their/they're/   Please excuse spelling mistakes - brain working on other things.
2014-08-30T18:48:00Z fahee308: drmeister: oops, sorry
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2014-08-30T18:49:11Z drmeister: No sweat - fahee308   I appreciate your interest.   Please excuse my earlier behavior.  I didn't sleep much last night, and hadn't eaten yet.  It was a low point.  Imagine Dragons is blasting on the stereo and the kids are throwing a koosh around - things are looking up.
2014-08-30T18:49:57Z fahee308: drmeister: if you have kids, i can understand your stress levels
2014-08-30T18:50:35Z fahee308: noise always makes me crazy too. and I get to live in one of the louder places on the planet. lucky me.
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2014-08-30T18:54:54Z dim: drmeister: what I meant is that I kind of understand you're doing that as part of a greater project, and I'm wondering what kind of project can justify the clask effort as a part of it
2014-08-30T18:55:37Z dim: fahee308: free tip: you can always move
2014-08-30T18:55:49Z xebd` reads scrollback ... . o O ( Hrm. 600M call/sec ~ 4 clock-cycle/call, assuming modern x86-64 CPU.  Sounds about like a "call" plus some minimal stack-frame manipulation, and not much else. )
2014-08-30T18:56:40Z wasamasa: fahee308: you live in a server rack?
2014-08-30T18:57:07Z drmeister: xebp: Yes - thank you.   I didn't think about it in terms of clock-cycles. How many instructions can be executed at 600M/sec
2014-08-30T18:57:09Z fahee308: dim: not so easy
2014-08-30T18:57:15Z fahee308: wasamasa: no
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2014-08-30T18:57:44Z drmeister: I just assumed that 600M/sec approaches the theoretical maximum for a call and some stack manipulation.
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2014-08-30T18:58:30Z xebd`: drmeister: Yes, it does. And, for low-level reference, I am fond of agner.org resources.
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2014-08-30T18:58:53Z drmeister: 2.7 GHz Intel Core i7  (single core of course)
2014-08-30T18:59:24Z dim: fahee308: yeah, just playing captain obvious
2014-08-30T18:59:41Z wasamasa: xebd`: I just visited the website and can't believe it has a "I hate animations!" gif flying at high speed through it over and over again
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2014-08-30T19:00:11Z fahee308: dim: heh
2014-08-30T19:00:32Z drmeister: xebd`: Thanks - I bookmarked it and I see the software optimization stuff.
2014-08-30T19:00:40Z xebd`: wasamasa: Heh. I'd forgotten about that. I usually probe http://agner.org/optimize/ as opposed to going to the home page. :)
2014-08-30T19:00:57Z xebd`: drmeister: Welcome / no problem.
2014-08-30T19:00:59Z fahee308: dim: are you Dimitri someone? I think I talked to you years ago about some Debian packaging?
2014-08-30T19:01:22Z dim: might be me then yes, Dimitri Fontaine
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2014-08-30T19:03:16Z wasamasa: dim: the el-get guy?
2014-08-30T19:03:25Z dim: yes
2014-08-30T19:03:36Z drmeister: dim: I'd be happy to answer that question some other time.  I'm trying to track down performance bottlenecks at the moment.
2014-08-30T19:03:42Z wasamasa: oh nice
2014-08-30T19:04:20Z wasamasa: dim: haven't seen you speak up on #emacs yet
2014-08-30T19:04:40Z dim: I'm not active over there anymore, doing too many other things
2014-08-30T19:05:00Z dim: I used to be quite active, but I now prefer CL over elisp (by a long shot)
2014-08-30T19:05:12Z oleo: lol
2014-08-30T19:05:17Z wasamasa: that must explain why you haven't shot me down for contributing to an el-get alternative yet :P
2014-08-30T19:05:19Z oleo: CL is a black hole!
2014-08-30T19:05:22Z oleo: hahahahaa
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2014-08-30T19:05:32Z dim: hehe
2014-08-30T19:05:39Z dim: I welcome el-get alternatives ;-)
2014-08-30T19:06:03Z wasamasa: well, the alternative is pretty el-get-like, just using package.el and not able to use makefiles yet
2014-08-30T19:06:08Z dim: ideally we would find a way to merge el-get and melpa
2014-08-30T19:06:17Z wasamasa: and using melpa recipes
2014-08-30T19:06:24Z wasamasa: so there we go I guess
2014-08-30T19:06:33Z dim: we're getting quite off-topic of #lisp tho
2014-08-30T19:06:48Z xebd`: drmeister: Do peruse Agner Fog's resources. When you're dealing with single-digit clock cycle counts, you need to be aware of things like instruction fetch/decode/order. Such things are moderately CPU-specific, too.
2014-08-30T19:06:48Z wasamasa: quick, let's talk about the beauty of SAVE-LISP-AND-DIE
2014-08-30T19:07:19Z dim: well, and buildapp then
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2014-08-30T19:10:01Z wasamasa: so, if I understand it correctly that function would allow me to save the state of a REPL to a binary file, then let me resume my session from there on?
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2014-08-30T19:11:46Z dim: except if you have active threads
2014-08-30T19:11:53Z Clarice: wasamasa: There is no beauty. :P
2014-08-30T19:12:02Z Clarice: wasamasa: But yes.
2014-08-30T19:12:16Z dim: it's more intended for you to load all your code in the image then save it so that next time you can use a binary with the code pre-loaded
2014-08-30T19:12:36Z dim: also, defvar and defparameter happen at load time, so you can load/compute some data and save it in the image
2014-08-30T19:12:38Z wasamasa: except if I use a CL implementation that can only dump out the initial state to an executable I guess
2014-08-30T19:12:49Z Clarice: Like what?
2014-08-30T19:12:58Z wasamasa: I've heard drmeister's does :P
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2014-08-30T19:13:06Z wasamasa: and ECL
2014-08-30T19:13:30Z Clarice: What is an initial state, anyway? Just having the CL-USER package loaded and a repl running? There's no difference from that and the binary for the actual implmentation, the.
2014-08-30T19:13:34Z Clarice: *then.
2014-08-30T19:14:14Z wasamasa: dim: interesting
2014-08-30T19:14:44Z dim: have a look at buildapp for a nice use case of save-lisp-and-die
2014-08-30T19:14:47Z drmeister: There are lots of data structures that need to be set up - all the defuns, global variables, CLOS classes/generic functions etc.
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2014-08-30T19:14:56Z Clarice: Anyway, what I'd prefer is for SBCL to do something like Allegro's tree-shaking. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but conceptually one simply iterates through all the source files being loaded at compile time, keeps track of all the symbols ACTUALLY being used, uninterns all the symbols that aren't being used, forces a garbage collection, and then just dumps the "skinny" image, right?
2014-08-30T19:15:05Z Clarice: And voila, you've got small binaries.
2014-08-30T19:15:31Z Bike: i thought tree shaking generally worked on the image alone
2014-08-30T19:15:46Z Clarice: What did I say that was different from that?
2014-08-30T19:15:59Z Bike: "iterates through all the source files being loaded"
2014-08-30T19:16:01Z dim: Clarice: my understanding is that it's more complex than that, but more to the point, what would you then achieve by smaller images?
2014-08-30T19:16:31Z Clarice: dim: Shipping CL applications to people that aren't 30+ MB
2014-08-30T19:16:37Z slyrus: easier to fit the binary an a floppy disk for sale in a computer store?
2014-08-30T19:16:43Z slyrus: oh wait, we don't have either of those any more
2014-08-30T19:17:10Z Clarice: dim: actually, I think what I would personally would use such a capacity for is small utility functions
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2014-08-30T19:17:20Z wasamasa: mhh
2014-08-30T19:17:40Z wasamasa: I actually thought I could compile fast and small libraries by using common lisp and something like sbcl
2014-08-30T19:17:51Z ShinmerAWAY: Xach: it has begun. https://github.com/Shinmera/humbler
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2014-08-30T19:17:53Z Clarice: wasamasa: What do you mean?
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2014-08-30T19:17:56Z k-stz: well id would be nice to share small programs when you start out programming with others - non programmers. My first hello world with 50MB... really?
2014-08-30T19:17:57Z dim: Clarice: well I'm shipping some CL apps and the images are like 20+ MB and well, I just don't care at this point
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2014-08-30T19:18:15Z wasamasa: Clarice: err, executables, not libraries
2014-08-30T19:18:36Z Clarice: dim: Yeah, and that doesn't matter for $APP, but when I script in bash I always think "...yup, this would be easier in Lisp"
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2014-08-30T19:19:37Z xebd`: s/(easier)/\1 & prettier/
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2014-08-30T19:20:46Z Clarice: Okay, I see two counterpoints already. 1) scripting is usually I/O bound anyway, so interpreting instead of compiling doesn't matter anyway, and 2) the intersection of problems that should have very fast solutions and also be written in a scripting language is very small
2014-08-30T19:21:45Z |3b|: Clarice: from what i understand, sbcl uses the compiler at runtime, so you can't remove as much as you might expect with a simple tree-shaker
2014-08-30T19:21:47Z Clarice: wasamasa: You can't. :) But as most people in here will tell you, it doesn't matter. You could actually just ship FASLs (which are small!) if you could guarantee that there's a (specifically versioned) SBCL waiting on the other end, but we aren't Oracle and can't especially impose that on poeple
2014-08-30T19:22:03Z Clarice: |3b|: Only for interpreting, I thought?
2014-08-30T19:22:15Z dim: Clarice: my current policy is to never ever write a bash script again
2014-08-30T19:22:21Z |3b| would expect interpreting to use the interpreter
2014-08-30T19:22:23Z dim: the reason is the error handling
2014-08-30T19:22:39Z wasamasa: Clarice: I pondered upon what my choices are if I'd want to write something in elisp and would want to have an executable to call for the expensive parts
2014-08-30T19:22:56Z Clarice: |3b|: SBCL doesn't have an interpreter. It just compiles everything and calls funcall on the object.
2014-08-30T19:23:06Z |3b|: it does, it just doesn't use it for most things
2014-08-30T19:23:24Z Clarice: Then the SBCL documentation is out of date?
2014-08-30T19:23:34Z wasamasa: Clarice: common lisp sounds pretty nice for that, but I'm still not sure whether I have understood how to actually execute code outside a REPL
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2014-08-30T19:24:24Z |3b|: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Interpreter
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2014-08-30T19:25:25Z xebd`: |3b|: Heh. I was just preparing to paste http://sbcl.org/manual/#Compiler_002donly-Implementation
2014-08-30T19:26:41Z Clarice: wasamasa: Two ways. You could load it at the command line with a command line argument (sbcl --load _____), or you could use something like cl-launch or shelly (I like the latter)
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2014-08-30T19:27:05Z xebd`: Is the "small and portable binary" discussion inclusive or exclusive of save-lisp-and-die concerns?
2014-08-30T19:27:28Z drmeister: dim: My motivations for writing this aside - what Clasp provides is the ability to interface to C++ libraries.  I've already interfaced it with the LLVM C++ library and the Clang C++ library.  So you can write LLVM compilers with it and C++ static analyzers with it.
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2014-08-30T19:27:38Z Clarice: xebd`: Someone mentioned save-lisp-and-die and I brought up small binaries as something I wish save-lisp-and-die could do
2014-08-30T19:27:58Z Clarice: xebd`: Because most people use that to create executables, when I'd prefer tree-shaking
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2014-08-30T19:28:46Z xebd`: Clarice: Ah. Thanks for clarifying.
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2014-08-30T19:29:04Z Clarice: drmeister: Hey, are you aware that there's already a common lisp related Clasp? It looks like kind of a defunct project so I'm sure they won't care but I thought it would be good to bring up
2014-08-30T19:29:38Z drmeister: I think every name with CL in it has been used to describe a Common Lisp project. :-)
2014-08-30T19:29:43Z Clarice: :P
2014-08-30T19:29:51Z wasamasa: Clarice: hum, cim and shelly look like a good combination
2014-08-30T19:30:01Z Clarice: dunno what cim is
2014-08-30T19:30:23Z Clarice: Ooooh, yeah
2014-08-30T19:30:45Z wasamasa: or alternatively buildapp
2014-08-30T19:31:39Z Clarice: wasamasa: From what I understand, shelly works by itself, and cl-launch builds on cim
2014-08-30T19:32:17Z drmeister: I don't know what's going on but it's like LLDB is behaving better lately.   I'm seeing CL source when I'm in a CL stack frame in LLDB.  It's like the DWARF debugging info I put in there surfaces every now and then. https://gist.github.com/drmeister/9a17de54b426a8a32cbf
2014-08-30T19:32:19Z wasamasa: Clarice: I wonder which combination would be easier to package with something like pacman
2014-08-30T19:32:36Z Clarice: wasamasa: The goals are kind of different. An action phrase for shelly would be "Have a single implementation image stored somewhere and use that to execute lisp from the command line", while one for cl-launch would be "launch a common lisp application portably among different implementations".
2014-08-30T19:32:46Z wasamasa: Clarice: if I just leave out pacman, using cim to install the lisp and shelly to do the rest sounds good
2014-08-30T19:32:49Z Clarice: But there's a large intersection between the two and I think I brought thatup in here before.
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2014-08-30T19:33:08Z xebd`: Clarice: small + portable (i.e. to a different execution environment on "similar enough" hardware)?
2014-08-30T19:33:55Z wasamasa: Clarice: buildapp looks more compatible to linux package managers
2014-08-30T19:33:56Z Clarice: xebd`: Was that directed toward me? I was actually just talking about "small" binaries, portability means nothing to me.
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2014-08-30T19:34:40Z xebd`: Clarice: Directed, yes. I was trying to clarify problem scope. Non-portable certainly makes things easier.
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2014-08-30T19:35:29Z Clarice: xebd`: There is no such thing as portable. Oracle lied to you.
2014-08-30T19:35:39Z Clarice: xebd`: If everything were the same there'd be no reason for anything to be different.
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2014-08-30T19:36:51Z Clarice: of course, things that have no good reason to be different should not be different, which is why Common-Lisp standardized such things as pathnames, interpreter/compiler behavior, etc. while Scheme let everyone have it their way™
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2014-08-30T19:47:13Z wasamasa: Clarice: huh, now that I'm reading the manual of shelly
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2014-08-30T19:47:38Z wasamasa: Clarice: it will pick up any installed lisp as long as it's in $PATH, so CIM is really not necessary
2014-08-30T19:47:54Z wasamasa: Clarice: unless you of course want to select some sort of default out of multiple
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2014-08-30T19:50:58Z Clarice: wasamasa: right
2014-08-30T19:51:10Z xebd`: I suppose that a tree-shaker would tally up (eval-when (:execute) ...) forms during load/compile time.  Once finished loading/compiling, all the :execute forms would be used to construct the ASG.
2014-08-30T19:51:13Z Clarice: wasamasa: But like I said, cl-launch and shelly are different, so read about both.
2014-08-30T19:51:41Z Clarice: xebd`: Somebody already mentioned that sbcl uses the compiler at runtime so tree-shaking isn't really that useful :P
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2014-08-30T19:52:29Z xebd`: Clarice: That's why I was a bit puzzled on what the goal was re tree-shaking. :)  Yeah, SBCL [usually] works that way.
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2014-08-30T19:53:21Z Clarice: xebd`: Well, if you could guarantee that something didn't use a compiler at runtime, then you could "shake" that out, maybe.
2014-08-30T19:53:29Z xebd`: Clarice: although it still could be useful if you're bringing in many a library, using only a few bits of the libraries, and wanted one small binary
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2014-08-30T19:55:06Z xebd`: Clarice:  Yeah.  That's why I mentioned examining :execute forms during load/compile, then using those results to make an ASG.  Of course, any (symbol-function dynamic-variable) would break the shaker for obvious reasons.
2014-08-30T19:55:26Z xebd`: s/would/could/
2014-08-30T19:55:48Z xebd`: Wouldn't break if evaluating dynamic-variable always returned a result that had been statically referenced. :)
2014-08-30T19:55:52Z Clarice: yeah, my conceptual understanding of lambdas isn't fantastic
2014-08-30T19:56:12Z Clarice: I thought lambdas just returned a function pointer and funcalling one would be a jump to that pointer
2014-08-30T19:56:46Z Clarice: same thing with dynamically constructing lambdas at runtime, it's sort of magic to me
2014-08-30T19:56:56Z |3b|: LAMBDA returns a function object, which might be a closure, so not just a pointer
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2014-08-30T19:57:30Z Clarice: |3b|: well then it's a case of pointer chasing, right? The closure itself will have a pointer to a set of instructions to execute, so same thing
2014-08-30T19:57:50Z |3b|: right, LAMBDA isn't a problem for tree shakers
2014-08-30T19:57:53Z xebd`: And you probably would want a tree shaker to include, e.g., handler-case cases, even though they aren't known to be in your execution path. :)
2014-08-30T19:58:18Z |3b|: it won't create new functions unless you are evaluating/compiling things, at which point you are already evaluating/compiling things so it doesn't matter
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2014-08-30T19:58:58Z xebd`: Stating the above (my most-recent previous statement) more correctly: A shaker would need to consider all special forms, not just lambda.
2014-08-30T19:59:00Z kpreid: you *could* represent closures in memory as instruction sequences of "load closure-state; jump to compiled code", in which case funcall can be a jump even for closures
2014-08-30T19:59:14Z Clarice: kpreid: How does, say, SBCL do it, though?
2014-08-30T19:59:16Z kpreid: (no idea if that's actually done, I bet it's a bad idea)
2014-08-30T19:59:27Z xebd`: handler-case is an example of catch (I assume)
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2014-08-30T20:05:49Z drmeister: So these are the results for the optimized -O3 version of clasp carrying out sequentially more and more of the APPLY function on a function with three arguments.  https://gist.github.com/drmeister/32270415b3142e9d1f89
2014-08-30T20:06:01Z |3b|: xebd`: i'd expect a tree shaker to work in terms of compiled code, not source forms
2014-08-30T20:06:14Z xebd`: kpreid: I'm trying to recall a paper (PDF? PPT?) that explains the general-case well.  IIRC, it was by Mark Feely at U. Montreal.  Although Scheme-centric, the principles of source-to-source translation (representing a closure at a sequence that includes the lambda) remain true in general.
2014-08-30T20:07:13Z drmeister: This is (APPLY #'fn args)   The big surprise is just calculating the length of the "args" is so expensive (6x slowdown).  Function lookup is expensive (10x slowdown).  Allocating the frame on the heap - not such a big deal (2x).
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2014-08-30T20:07:57Z AeroNotix: is there a list of all predicates?
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2014-08-30T20:08:02Z |3b|: drmeister: any idea how many function applications in normal use are calls to known specific functions like that?
2014-08-30T20:08:16Z |3b|: seems like function lookup should be a no-op for function objects
2014-08-30T20:08:33Z |3b|: but if that isn't a common case, it would only help the benchmark and not real code
2014-08-30T20:08:51Z drmeister: |3b| I don't know the answer to that.  But this is a model of the FUNCALL that I do from compiled code.   A FUNCALL that looks like what I use from compiled code is my next nano-profiling target.
2014-08-30T20:09:49Z drmeister: Ok, here's where I start asking lisp questions again - isn't the normal function lookup going to be with a symbol?
2014-08-30T20:09:59Z xebd`: I would profile both: (prof-apply (let ((x #'b)))) and (prof-apply (let ((x b))))
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2014-08-30T20:10:20Z wasamasa: TIL the google organization on github put up lisp-koans
2014-08-30T20:10:21Z drmeister: No, wait it's going to be SYMBOL-FUNCTION.
2014-08-30T20:10:28Z xebd`: i.e., compare accessing a symbol versus the (symbol-function) call
2014-08-30T20:10:37Z drmeister: Or the lexical function lookup.
2014-08-30T20:11:08Z |3b|: drmeister: (fun a b c) needs to look up FUN in the general case, but (cl:* a b c) can assume it is a specific function (since you can't bind CL symbol names as function)
2014-08-30T20:11:24Z |3b|: if there is a lexical function binding, you also don't need to look it up
2014-08-30T20:11:28Z drmeister: My compiler generates either a lexical function lookup call or a global function lookup call based on the lexical environment.
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2014-08-30T20:11:40Z |3b|: and you are also allowed to optimize calls to functions within the same 'compilation unit'
2014-08-30T20:12:29Z |3b| wouldn't expect a run-time lookup for a call to a lexical function binding
2014-08-30T20:13:05Z xebd`: ^^^ +1
2014-08-30T20:13:16Z drmeister: Here's another thing.   My runtime environments are linked lists of frames.   If I have (flet ((a ...)) (let ((b ...)) (let ((c ...)) (a 1))))   The code for (a 1) is something like (LEXICAL-LOOKUP 2 0 env)   Where the 2 means crawl up 2 frames and get the 0th entry.
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2014-08-30T20:13:28Z drmeister: Is that so bad?
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2014-08-30T20:14:15Z drmeister: I guess I have to profile it.
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2014-08-30T20:15:15Z |3b|: having run-time lexical environments in the first place sounds a bit bad :p
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2014-08-30T20:16:32Z xebd` ... . o O ( Is someone going to bring up deep linking versus shallow linking? )
2014-08-30T20:16:46Z drmeister: |3b| I'm not sure if we are talking about the same thing.   I have compile-time lexical environments and runtime linked lists of function frames and value frames that store functions and values respectively.
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2014-08-30T20:17:36Z drmeister: The runtime frames are simple vectors of pointers to objects.  They have an additional entry to store a list of symbols that are associated with the frame entries for debugging.
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2014-08-30T20:17:45Z |3b|: drmeister: i'm saying that LET shouldn't be creating something visible at run time
2014-08-30T20:17:50Z xebd`: drmeister: You also need to worry about catch frames, tagbody frames, block frames, et cetera. :)
2014-08-30T20:18:28Z drmeister: xebd` I have all of that stuff working.  Efficiently?  I'm not sure.  But working - yes.  You can't have CLOS without everything working.
2014-08-30T20:19:06Z |3b|: drmeister: did you see my earlier comment about making sure non-local exit scopes don't do any run-time work if they aren't actually used?
2014-08-30T20:19:50Z drmeister: The catch/tagbody/block stuff is handled using C++ exception handling to preserve C++ interoperation. setjmp/longjmp breaks C++.
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2014-08-30T20:20:09Z xebd`: drmeister: Ah. I was unaware that CLOS was happy. Cool.
2014-08-30T20:20:34Z drmeister: |3b| I use zero cost itanium exception handling, C++ exception handling.  It has zero cost if it is not used.
2014-08-30T20:21:02Z |3b|: cool, you don't need to allocate any object to tell which instance of a scope is being exited?
2014-08-30T20:21:29Z drmeister: On the other hand it is expensive if you use it so I need a better compiler to decide when it needs to be used (between LLVM functions) and when local jumps (within an LLVM function) can be used.
2014-08-30T20:21:30Z |3b|: (if you don't know why you would want to, you may have some bad edge cases in your non-local exit handling :) )
2014-08-30T20:22:48Z drmeister: |3b| Ah, I push things (catch tag/block tag/tagbody identifier) onto a special stack when the special operator starts and pop it off when it exits.
2014-08-30T20:23:32Z drmeister: The exceptions I throw for GO/RETURN-FROM/THROW contain a single integer as an index into that stack.
2014-08-30T20:23:34Z |3b|: yeah, might help to only do that is something actually references that tag
2014-08-30T20:23:45Z |3b|: *if
2014-08-30T20:24:21Z drmeister: I see - you mean elide out things like (tagbody ....  )
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2014-08-30T20:24:39Z |3b|: right, also blocks
2014-08-30T20:24:54Z |3b|: lots of forms are implicit blocks and tagbodies, so you probably have more than you think
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2014-08-30T20:25:00Z drmeister: Or (catch XXX ... ) et.
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2014-08-30T20:25:09Z drmeister: Good point.
2014-08-30T20:25:48Z drmeister: That's the kind of optimizations I need.    Currently my compiler takes S-expressions straight to LLVM-IR.  There are no language level optimizations.
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2014-08-30T20:26:06Z xebd`:  The exceptions I throw for GO/RETURN-FROM/THROW contain a single integer as an index into that stack.
2014-08-30T20:26:08Z xebd`: o_O
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2014-08-30T20:26:35Z xebd`: defun creates an implicit block with return-from, yes?  So you're throwing an exception during each function call?
2014-08-30T20:26:42Z drmeister: I'm hoping someone(s) would like to help me write a better compiler.  One with an abstract-syntax-tree and language level optimizations.  One where we can write a library to enable static analysis of Common Lisp.
2014-08-30T20:26:44Z |3b|: purely lexical LET shouldn't be doing any run-time work either, which it sounds like yours does
2014-08-30T20:26:48Z didi: Hey, this got me thinking. Can I extend LOOP? I have a function which retrieves indexed elements from a custom sequence. I normally use (loop for i from 0 do (myref custom-seq i ...)), but could I extend LOOP so I could, say, use (loop for element in custom-seq do ...)?
2014-08-30T20:26:55Z xebd`: Of course, with the clock timings you posted... maybe that is being optimized down to nearly nothing?
2014-08-30T20:26:56Z Clarice: No
2014-08-30T20:26:56Z Bike: xebd`: not all functions actuall return-from
2014-08-30T20:27:07Z Clarice: didi: Iterate might let you do that?
2014-08-30T20:27:16Z didi: Clarice: Does it?
2014-08-30T20:27:20Z |3b|: didi: not portably
2014-08-30T20:27:27Z |3b|: (and usually not easily)
2014-08-30T20:27:29Z drmeister: xebd`: I'm setting up to catch a RETURN-FROM for every function that may or may not happen - yes.
2014-08-30T20:27:32Z didi: Oh.
2014-08-30T20:27:36Z Clarice: didi: Ah, but it does let you extend it. That was one of the points of it.
2014-08-30T20:27:38Z didi: Oh well.
2014-08-30T20:27:52Z |3b|: many CLs use something derived from MIT LOOP, which has some ability to extend it though
2014-08-30T20:28:22Z xebd`: Bike: /me had better RTFS... although I guess functions not returning any value would just fall from the end of the block...
2014-08-30T20:28:23Z |3b| wouldn't expect to easily port extensions between implementations even among those that do use MIT LOOP
2014-08-30T20:28:26Z xebd`: Bike: thanks
2014-08-30T20:28:45Z |3b|: and yeah, extensibility is one of the reasons for ITERATE
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2014-08-30T20:29:48Z Clarice: you shouldn't use loop anyway :P
2014-08-30T20:29:59Z Clarice: bang your problem until you can use map, reduce, and filter with it
2014-08-30T20:30:07Z didi: Nah, LOOP is great.
2014-08-30T20:30:22Z |3b|: use LOOP where it fits, that is what it is there for :p
2014-08-30T20:30:58Z didi: Specially when I have to iterate using indexes. Building lists just to iterate sounds wasteful without any gain.
2014-08-30T20:31:00Z |3b|: use other things if they fit better
2014-08-30T20:31:02Z xebd`:  I'm hoping someone(s) would like to help me write a better compiler. [...]
2014-08-30T20:31:11Z xebd`: drmeister: For LLVM-IR? Or what IR?
2014-08-30T20:31:15Z Clarice: didi: map works on a vector!
2014-08-30T20:31:16Z drmeister: |3b| : Yes, since my compiler doesn't do escape analysis, I can't figure out what bindings can go on the stack and which can go on the heap.   So I put everything on a heap.
2014-08-30T20:31:38Z drmeister: xebd`: For LLVM-IR.   I have the interface for LLVM-IR generation in place already.
2014-08-30T20:31:38Z didi: Clarice: I know. But remember my question. ;-)
2014-08-30T20:32:06Z |3b|: drmeister: the object might need to be on the heap, but not sure why you need a "binding" as a separate thing
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2014-08-30T20:32:20Z Clarice: didi: I saw! If you have extensible sequences, like in SBCL, then map works on it, too.
2014-08-30T20:32:21Z drmeister: I've done the hard work.   I have exposed every part of the LLVM library necessary to build modules, functions, basic blocks, instructions and to JIT it down to native code.
2014-08-30T20:32:25Z xebd`: drmeister: Right (have the interface). I didn't know if you were looking to preprocess or postprocess the LLVM-IR. :)
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2014-08-30T20:32:48Z didi: Clarice: I am indeed using SBCL. I will check it out. As ITERATE. Thank you.
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2014-08-30T20:33:03Z Clarice: didi: Oh. But when you need indices. Well, there's dotimes :P but yeah, iterate is cool
2014-08-30T20:33:20Z xebd`: drmeister: Actually, you haven't done the hard work. Coding is the easy part. Waiting on legal red tape is the hard part. :P
2014-08-30T20:33:31Z xebd` ducks
2014-08-30T20:33:55Z |3b|: as long as it is just waiting, that is an easy part, just a slow one :/
2014-08-30T20:33:58Z drmeister: xebd`: The legal red tape is unwinding as we talk.  Slowly.
2014-08-30T20:34:03Z xebd`: :)
2014-08-30T20:34:32Z pjb: Clarice: portable means sticking to public interfaces.
2014-08-30T20:34:44Z pjb: You can very well write portable software.
2014-08-30T20:34:59Z Clarice: pjb: What was the context of this?
2014-08-30T20:35:00Z pjb: It's even most easy, since by sticking to interfaces, you can easily test and debug modules independently.
2014-08-30T20:35:09Z pjb: <21:32:19> xebd`: There is no such thing as portable. Oracle lied to you.
2014-08-30T20:35:49Z drmeister: xebd`: There is another capability here.   I exposed the Clang C++ compiler front end to Clasp.  So we can write static analyzers for C++ and automatic refactoring robots for C++.   I've used this to analyze my 168 C++ source files and automatically generate a 15,000 line interface between Clasp and the Memory Pool System garbage collector.
2014-08-30T20:35:53Z Clarice: pjb: Ah, what I was referring to was that for very large projects you inevitably interface with OS or platform dependent libraries, so portability goes down the drain.
2014-08-30T20:36:01Z drmeister: Clasp has a compacting garbage collector.   ECL doesn't have that.
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2014-08-30T20:36:08Z pjb: Now of course, one problem may be that some level of formal specfication of the behavior of the API would be needed, and a lot of interfaces are defined without that.
2014-08-30T20:36:17Z pjb: Clarice: POSIX, OpenStep, etc.
2014-08-30T20:36:41Z pjb: Just resist the urge of using proprietary API that will change because it's in the benefit of the vendor to change them.
2014-08-30T20:36:55Z pjb: Stick to stable interfaces.
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2014-08-30T20:37:22Z pjb: Do not use platform dependent libraries.  Just platform independent libraries!
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2014-08-30T20:37:37Z Clarice: pjb: Those are great things, I agree! But sometimes one platform has a nifty feature that other platforms do not. For instance, the Linux kernel is in many ways more advanced than BSD, and by sticking to POSIX stuff you miss out on the linux specific features.
2014-08-30T20:38:07Z xebd`: drmeister: Cool. (re ASG analysis and refactorbots)
2014-08-30T20:38:09Z pjb: You can wrap that into a platform dependant module, and provide a platform independant API for that feature.
2014-08-30T20:38:29Z pjb: That's what we call OO programming.  A super class defining the interface, and subclasses providing specific behavior.
2014-08-30T20:38:29Z Clarice: True. I think a better example would be the mess that is mobile computing.
2014-08-30T20:38:39Z drmeister: The Clasp/C++ interface is very straightforward.   LLVM/Clang are complex C++ libraries under active development and that are changing all the time.  Me, one guy has been able to keep up with the C++ API changes and write a CL system at the same time.
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2014-08-30T20:39:18Z pjb: drmeister: you're kind of a SuperMan there.  Having a PhD, etc.
2014-08-30T20:40:07Z Clarice: drmeister: I was reading a blog post by Robert Smith that said something along the lines of "There are so many more Scheme implementations than there are Common Lisp implementations because Scheme is so simple. One man couldn't possibly write a CL compiler by himself that is fully compliant." At which point I thought of you :P
2014-08-30T20:40:08Z xebd`: pjb: s/super class/interface or pure virtual base class/ (a base class can, and often does, provide behavior unless all functions/methods are pure virtual)
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2014-08-30T20:40:14Z drmeister: xebd`: These are complicated things I'm working with but very, very powerful. It be powerful juju.
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2014-08-30T20:40:53Z xebd`: drmeister: *nod* I've been dabbling over the years with similar, but have not had the time to make a fraction of the progress that you have. :)
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2014-08-30T20:41:39Z pjb: xebd`: you would give a main function as parameter to the tree shaker.  Of course including startup hooks would hang from the root function that would call this main function, the tree shaker processing this root function.
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2014-08-30T20:42:34Z pjb: xebd`: I don't enter into the discussion about classes vs. interfaces, just considering the prototypal Smalltalk OO system.
2014-08-30T20:42:34Z drmeister: Clarice: I'm probably most qualified to agree with Robert Smith.   But one person can get a long way there.  Most of my last year has been tied up with getting compacting garbage collection to work.  The Boehm GC is surprisingly fast but it can't guarantee that it won't fragment and run out of memory.  So it's useless to me other than as a means to run the static analyzer for the real garbage collector.
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2014-08-30T20:43:07Z xebd`: pjb: Got it (class-vs-interface). Easier discussion.
2014-08-30T20:43:13Z pjb: xebd`: at least, interfaces in Java are horrible (everything in Java is, allright), but that's the most prominent example of interfaces in a OO system.
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2014-08-30T20:43:40Z xebd`: pjb: Java *shudder*
2014-08-30T20:43:48Z drmeister: It speaks to the power of Common Lisp.  Small groups of people have done amazing things with it.  I can't program in another language anymore.  I'm enlightened and ruined at the same time.
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2014-08-30T20:44:05Z pjb: xebd`: there are a few interface definiting systems in Common Lisp.  For example in slime/swank.
2014-08-30T20:44:17Z drmeister: ruined for regular programming.  I'm a Lisp propeller-head for better or worse now.
2014-08-30T20:44:18Z pjb: it's no big deal really.
2014-08-30T20:44:20Z pnpuff: drmeister: tou've still to use c++
2014-08-30T20:44:45Z pnpuff: *you .. :)
2014-08-30T20:44:58Z drmeister: pnpuff: Sure - but hopefully less of that and more CL in the future.
2014-08-30T20:44:58Z xebd`: pjb: Sometimes there is no main function per se, as the main path is inline [on the REPL]. That's why I was thinking tally-as-you-go.
2014-08-30T20:45:19Z pjb: xebd`: you can't tree-shake a REPL, because of the E.
2014-08-30T20:45:19Z xebd`: pjb: i.e., top-level :execute forms
2014-08-30T20:45:20Z pjb: and R.
2014-08-30T20:45:23Z xebd`: right
2014-08-30T20:45:25Z xebd`: but
2014-08-30T20:45:46Z xebd`: if the source is specified inline, as opposed to having an officially-delineated entry point
2014-08-30T20:46:05Z pjb: In a normal application, the treeshaker can analyse (globally) each EVAL call, and either reduce it to the possibly called functions, or warn the user that this EVAL needs to be tagged with an explicit list.
2014-08-30T20:46:13Z Clarice: drmeister: What's the real garbage collector? You mentioned Ravenbrook a while back, so I don't know if that's related.
2014-08-30T20:46:23Z pnpuff: drmeister: ok... but I don't know how this could simplify your work
2014-08-30T20:46:24Z drmeister: pnpuff: The world has gone with C/C++, there are so many libraries that other Common Lisps can't access without having to write and maintain FFI's.
2014-08-30T20:46:47Z pjb: perhaps something like: (eval (tree-shaker:calling '(sin cos tan * + / -) expression))
2014-08-30T20:47:02Z drmeister: Clarice: It's the Ravenbrook Memory Pool System (http://www.ravenbrook.com/project/mps/master/manual/html/)
2014-08-30T20:47:18Z drmeister: It's used in OpenDylan and a couple of proprietary systems.
2014-08-30T20:47:32Z |3b|: xebd`: tree shaking happens after source is already processed, it doesn't care what the source does, only the final state of the image
2014-08-30T20:47:40Z drmeister: It's a C library that does compacting, copying garbage collection.
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2014-08-30T20:48:10Z drmeister: I use it to manage 268 C++ classes, all chock-full of pointers.
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2014-08-30T20:48:29Z pjb: Also, using a tree-shaker basically puts the whole program in a single compilation unit.  That may ease things.
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2014-08-30T20:48:53Z AeroNotix: drmeister: did you mean to say that the world is mostly made up of C++ code?
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2014-08-30T20:49:22Z xebd`: |3b|: That's my question/point: Why wait until after a binary image has been generated? Why not keep tabs on what :execute will do during :load-toplevel and :compile-toplevel?
2014-08-30T20:49:53Z Clarice: xebd`: Do it now or later, whatever. Counting symbols is commutative.
2014-08-30T20:50:08Z pjb: xebd`: a tree shaker could be implemented as a method on ASDF systems.
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2014-08-30T20:50:44Z Clarice: pjb: Is uninterning symbols and then forcing a garbage collection enough to implement a tree shaker?
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2014-08-30T20:50:53Z xebd`: Clarice: Yes, it is. I was thinking in terms of warm cache... but, from an equivalence standpoint, it would be irrelevant.
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2014-08-30T20:51:52Z pjb: Clarice: and some implementation support right.
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2014-08-30T20:52:00Z Clarice: drmeister: It says that the memory pool is single threaded only for clang/llvm :(
2014-08-30T20:52:23Z pjb: SICL will be loadable with asdf, so if you use it, I stand my case. :-)
2014-08-30T20:52:35Z Clarice: Alright.
2014-08-30T20:52:43Z pnpuff: AeroNotix: drmeister maybe was referring only to the world made up of the scientific computing libraries related to his work
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2014-08-30T20:53:17Z xebd`: pjb: SICL... were you at ELS2011?
2014-08-30T20:53:29Z pjb: I was in Bordeaux, Lisboa and Paris.
2014-08-30T20:53:35Z pjb: Where was I in 2011?
2014-08-30T20:53:41Z Clarice: xebd`: beach is responsible for SICL, not pjb
2014-08-30T20:53:51Z AeroNotix: pnpuff: that is what I was hoping
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2014-08-30T20:54:04Z xebd`: Clarice: Thanks.
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2014-08-30T20:54:32Z xebd`: pjb: I only made 2011 (Hamburg). Haven't attended any others... yet.
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2014-08-30T20:54:43Z drmeister: Clarice: That's subject to change.  Clasp is currently single threaded.
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2014-08-30T20:54:52Z Clarice: Gotcha
2014-08-30T20:55:15Z AeroNotix: we need more lisp conferences in Amsterdam
2014-08-30T20:55:18Z AeroNotix: jus' sayin'
2014-08-30T20:56:03Z pnpuff: We need more Lisp conferences even in Udine :-)
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2014-08-30T20:58:17Z xebd`: AeroNotix: Convenience of locale, or (map nil #'funcall localized-entertainment-list) ? :P
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2014-08-30T20:59:17Z AeroNotix: xebd`: I want to smoke copious amounts of cannabis whilst talking about interesting Lisp thingies
2014-08-30T20:59:22Z AeroNotix: xebd`: lets just make that clear
2014-08-30T21:00:20Z AeroNotix: but for real though, I'm hoping a proper conference appears in Europe in a reasonably placed location
2014-08-30T21:00:21Z AeroNotix: soonish
2014-08-30T21:00:26Z |3b|: xebd`: i mean it is done in the process of making a binary... you can't remove anything until you have stopped changing things, so you might as well wait and look at exactly what you have at that point instead of tracking things that may or may not matter when you dump the image
2014-08-30T21:00:29Z xebd`: AeroNotix: Hence (map nil #'funcall localize-entertainment-list) ; unless you'd rather use mapcar to tally up the results of all your localized entertainment
2014-08-30T21:01:06Z AeroNotix: xebd`: "_
2014-08-30T21:01:08Z AeroNotix: :)
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2014-08-30T21:01:57Z xebd`: |3b|: i.e. have some sort of a readily-delineated entry point for traversal
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2014-08-30T21:18:20Z didi: ITERATE looks cool.
2014-08-30T21:18:53Z didi: Is it the package which almost got included to the spec?
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2014-08-30T21:20:25Z didi: I am misremembering. Series.
2014-08-30T21:21:00Z Bicyclidine: i think that was s- yeah.
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2014-08-30T21:21:11Z didi: :-)
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2014-08-30T21:23:03Z wasamasa: didi: it's the package nobody ported to elisp yet
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2014-08-30T21:25:58Z didi: What a pity. Debian has cl-iterate, but no cl-series.
2014-08-30T21:26:26Z Bicyclidine: well, series is a weird old package, unlike iterate which is pretty modern
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2014-08-30T21:30:31Z wasamasa: series has an iterate macro
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2014-08-30T21:53:39Z stacksmith: Is there a secret bookstore where I could by a copy of On Lisp for less then the price of a used car?
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2014-08-30T21:54:00Z Shinmera: It's called Amazon
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2014-08-30T21:54:40Z stacksmith: $465.93???
2014-08-30T21:55:11Z Shinmera: I got it used for ~70$ iirc
2014-08-30T21:55:29Z Shinmera: You aren't going to get it cheap new, since it's never been printed in many years
2014-08-30T21:56:10Z stacksmith: $265.16 is the best used price at Ama
2014-08-30T21:56:16Z Shinmera: welp.
2014-08-30T21:57:16Z rme: http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisptext.html
2014-08-30T21:59:35Z stacksmith: rme: Sadly, I don't have any software that is as good as holding the book in my hands, and sticking little Japanese color-coded bookmarks into it...
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2014-08-30T22:00:16Z Bicyclidine: if you have the pdf, you can get a copy printed, and probably for less than two hundred dollars
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2014-08-30T22:00:42Z stacksmith: That is what must be done.
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2014-08-30T22:22:29Z didi: Another thing I've being thinking about is it would be cool to change elements of sequences while iterating over them using LOOP. e.g (loop for x in list do (setf x 42)) => (42 42 42 ...)
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2014-08-30T22:23:49Z AeroNotix: stacksmith: the kindle version is very readable
2014-08-30T22:24:59Z attila_lendvai: didi: IIRC I did marcolets in hu.dwim.reiterate for that effect
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2014-08-30T22:27:04Z Shinmera: didi: (loop for x on list do (setf (car x) 42))
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2014-08-30T22:29:40Z didi: attila_lendvai: I am sorry. I don't know these. Do you have a link?
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2014-08-30T22:30:33Z didi: Shinmera: Thank you. It does solve it for lists, but it doesn't seem general for sequences.
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2014-08-30T22:30:45Z Shinmera: didi: just use an index then
2014-08-30T22:30:50Z Shinmera: ain't rocket science
2014-08-30T22:30:55Z didi: Shinmera: Right.
2014-08-30T22:31:02Z didi: Not my point tho.
2014-08-30T22:31:58Z Shinmera: My point is that to do it is trivial, so adding another complication to loop, which is already too complex as is shown time and time again in here, would be dumb.
2014-08-30T22:32:29Z didi: Okay.
2014-08-30T22:33:02Z attila_lendvai: in reiterate: (let ((l (list 1 2 3))) (iter (for x :in-list l :mutable t) (incf x)) l) => (2 3 4)
2014-08-30T22:33:27Z didi: attila_lendvai: Cool.
2014-08-30T22:33:30Z Shinmera: What I would like for loop is being able to iterate over sequences so I wouldn't have to know whether I have a vector or a list to iterate over.
2014-08-30T22:33:39Z attila_lendvai: didi: http://dwim.hu/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=HEAD%20hu.dwim.reiterate;a=summary
2014-08-30T22:33:50Z attila_lendvai: (that link doesn't work with chrome)
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2014-08-30T22:34:10Z stacksmith: AeroNotix: it's not readability, it's bookmarking, being able to flip to the right section and page through, etc...
2014-08-30T22:34:12Z didi: attila_lendvai: I liked the top right image.
2014-08-30T22:35:53Z attila_lendvai: Shinmera: that should be trivial, but I haven't done yet in reiterate
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2014-08-30T22:41:28Z AeroNotix: stacksmith: the kindle has support for some of that stuff.
2014-08-30T22:41:38Z AeroNotix: not as good as  a real book tho
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2014-08-30T22:52:41Z oGMo: far better, generally :p
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2014-08-30T23:10:14Z stacksmith: oGMo: 2 things: you can't flip through it, and it tracks the hell out of you.  Anyway, it cost $7.03 to print it on lulu.com...
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2014-08-30T23:15:23Z drmeister: The slowest thing about (APPLY fn args) is calculating the length of the list args.
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2014-08-30T23:20:14Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/1b110d10d6fa5ab9904e
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2014-08-30T23:30:06Z |3b|: drmeister: ouch
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2014-08-30T23:30:39Z |3b|: though that isn't exactly a good way to compare them
2014-08-30T23:30:47Z drmeister: I'm thinking it's a sign - that I shouldn't be calculating the length of the list args.
2014-08-30T23:31:07Z drmeister: |3b| Why not?  I'm really interested in how to profile better.
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2014-08-30T23:31:28Z |3b|: better to time individual operations if possible
2014-08-30T23:31:46Z |3b|: not sure if the timer you are using is suitable for that or not
2014-08-30T23:33:14Z drmeister: The timer I'm using is not at all suitable for that.   I'd need something with a nanosecond resolution.
2014-08-30T23:33:38Z |3b|: amount of time needed to slow something happening at N/sec by 4x might be more than the time needed to slow something happening at M/sec by 40x, depending on M and N
2014-08-30T23:33:43Z nyef: CPU cycle counters?
2014-08-30T23:34:01Z drmeister: It seems like wrapping a timer around a large loop where I do some stuff and turn on/off stuff in the loop is the best way to profile this.
2014-08-30T23:34:15Z |3b|: or possibly subtract out previous time before dividing?
2014-08-30T23:34:36Z |3b|: timer around loop might be OK if you interpret it differently
2014-08-30T23:34:52Z drmeister: How should I interpret it?
2014-08-30T23:35:42Z |3b|: i think subtracting out previous time would be better
2014-08-30T23:36:08Z |3b|: possibly also print time per iteration instead of iterations/time
2014-08-30T23:36:23Z |3b|:  (which allows subtracting previous times)
2014-08-30T23:36:35Z |3b|: same problem as measuring FPS in graphics
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2014-08-30T23:37:14Z |3b|: you are comparing a non-linear amount, so relative changes are counterintuitive (or something like that)
2014-08-30T23:40:16Z |3b|: if i'm counting right, that puts alloc and apply at slowest
2014-08-30T23:41:01Z |3b|: with alloc 3.6 times slower than length
2014-08-30T23:41:16Z |3b|: and apply about 2x that
2014-08-30T23:41:37Z |3b|: but considering fill is faster than alloc, i think you need to average more runs :)
2014-08-30T23:44:59Z drmeister: Each slowdown is relative to the previous stage operations/sec.
2014-08-30T23:45:22Z drmeister: The #/sec is how many iterations of the timed loop will run per second.
2014-08-30T23:45:53Z drmeister: Adding each stage adds more operations to the loop and results in fewer iterations/second.
2014-08-30T23:46:22Z drmeister: The slowdown values are the #stage-1/sec divided by the #stage/sec
2014-08-30T23:46:26Z |3b|: right, but ratios between iterations/sec don't give you relative amounts of time consumed by each step
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2014-08-30T23:46:39Z drmeister: I think you are right.
2014-08-30T23:46:43Z drmeister: Thinking.
2014-08-30T23:47:07Z |3b|: divide sec by iterations and you get something easier to compare
2014-08-30T23:47:34Z |3b|: and subtract previous stage, and you get something even better for comparing
2014-08-30T23:47:39Z drmeister: So a 2x slowdown in a later stage represents more time lost than a 2x slowdown at an earlier stage - right?
2014-08-30T23:47:52Z |3b|: it might... thats the problem
2014-08-30T23:48:04Z |3b|: you can't tell directly
2014-08-30T23:48:16Z |3b|: well, 2x and 2x are probably obvious
2014-08-30T23:48:25Z |3b|: but 20x and 2x are hard to tell
2014-08-30T23:49:05Z drmeister: Hmmm.
2014-08-30T23:49:16Z |3b|: (and if that was confusing, 'yes' is probably the correct answer now that i read it better and think more)
2014-08-30T23:49:41Z drmeister: This is what happened when I wrote an unsafe/fast length calculator: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/77b75f1914296108de5c
2014-08-30T23:49:55Z drmeister: Let me combine those in one
2014-08-30T23:50:34Z |3b|: yeah, see how that made that step 40x faster, but only got 2x on the total
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2014-08-30T23:50:58Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/c16e67cc8fa68b20a295
2014-08-30T23:51:15Z drmeister: It's like squishing a bubble under a carpet, it just moves somewhere else.
2014-08-30T23:52:43Z drmeister: I'm puzzling on this.  So you think taking the difference between successive stages will be more illuminating?   Note - these are numbers of loop iterations/sec
2014-08-30T23:53:07Z |3b|: see the comment on that last paste
2014-08-30T23:53:25Z |3b|: if i'm calculating right (which i may not be) thats seconds per iteration for each step
2014-08-30T23:53:39Z drmeister: Which past is that?
2014-08-30T23:53:41Z drmeister: paste
2014-08-30T23:53:48Z |3b|: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/c16e67cc8fa68b20a295
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2014-08-30T23:54:04Z |3b|: those are from the first set of numbers, where length is 40x
2014-08-30T23:54:10Z drmeister: Oh, the comment below - thanks.
2014-08-30T23:55:19Z drmeister: In the comment the exponents are -9, -10, -8 ...
2014-08-30T23:55:47Z |3b|: add comment with second set as well
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2014-08-30T23:56:13Z drmeister: Hang on, I'll write this into the helper function.
2014-08-30T23:57:43Z |3b|: alloc and apply stayed at -7, len apparently got 80x faster, etc
2014-08-30T23:59:14Z |3b|: you need better numbers though, average a few runs (and if you want to be sciency, track std dev) so you get some idea how much of that change is noise vs effective optimization
2014-08-30T23:59:43Z drmeister: I should probably invert the #/sec to get nanoseconds/call and then take differences - that would give me linear times.
2014-08-30T23:59:43Z |3b|: possibly also try to track GC time (or at least run a full GC before test if possible)
2014-08-30T23:59:51Z |3b|: right
2014-08-30T23:59:52Z drmeister: I'm overcomplicating this.
2014-08-31T00:00:51Z drmeister: Working
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2014-08-31T00:14:43Z |3b|: oops, apparently missed the "comment" button when adding the second comment.. there now
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2014-08-31T00:23:55Z drmeister: This makes much more sense - thanks: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/9db7a0856286b78273e9
2014-08-31T00:25:24Z drmeister: Nanoseconds are nice - they make me feel like I'm doing chemistry.
2014-08-31T00:25:37Z |3b|: :)
2014-08-31T00:26:06Z drmeister: This is with the fastUnsafeLength - I'll put it back the old way.
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2014-08-31T00:27:37Z |3b|: paste 2 runs of one of them, curious how much the numbers change without code change
2014-08-31T00:29:21Z drmeister: There is a garbage-collection being done at the beginning of each test: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/c70993262788e74764e0
2014-08-31T00:29:35Z drmeister: The numbers are very stable
2014-08-31T00:29:55Z |3b|: cool
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2014-08-31T00:36:23Z slyrus: drmeister: if this were really like chemistry you could just turn the temperature up a few degrees, maybe add some ethanol and run it again a bit longer and hope for better results
2014-08-31T00:37:29Z drmeister: That's true, roughly every ten degrees reactions run twice as fast.
2014-08-31T00:38:40Z nyef: So, that reminds me. Is it possible to work out what the thermal aspect of a chemical reaction would be from the bond strengths of the molecules before and after?
2014-08-31T00:39:14Z Bike: that's the usual way of doing it in gen chem, at least.
2014-08-31T00:39:31Z nyef: And if so, how is it done?
2014-08-31T00:39:46Z Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_enthalpy_of_formation
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2014-08-31T00:41:06Z nyef: Okay, thank you. That should give me a starting point for further reading. (-:
2014-08-31T00:41:20Z Bike: sum them up in the products, sum them up in the reactants, take the difference, bam
2014-08-31T00:41:38Z Bike: actual chemists are probably more sophisticated
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2014-08-31T04:03:24Z chitofan: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143571
2014-08-31T04:03:33Z chitofan: is there a better way to rewrite this?
2014-08-31T04:03:58Z chitofan: because you can only evaluate one form after meeting a cond..
2014-08-31T04:04:35Z Bike: you can write more than one, actually
2014-08-31T04:04:54Z chitofan: really?
2014-08-31T04:05:12Z nyef: Yeah, it's an implicit PROGN... Or maybe a TAGBODY.
2014-08-31T04:05:24Z nyef: Also, you can use one SETF form to set multiple variables in series.
2014-08-31T04:05:50Z Bike: really!
2014-08-31T04:06:03Z nyef: Your next option is to use an explicit PROGN, but that'd be overkill.
2014-08-31T04:06:09Z nyef: So that's three options for you.
2014-08-31T04:06:21Z nyef: clhs cond
2014-08-31T04:06:21Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_cond.htm
2014-08-31T04:06:33Z nyef: And that's the spec for COND, if you hadn't found it already.
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2014-08-31T04:08:22Z chitofan: coudl you show me an example where a cond uses more than one form
2014-08-31T04:08:46Z Bike: (cond ((= 2 3) (print 'foo) (print 'bar)) ((= 2 2) (print 'bar) (print 'foo)))
2014-08-31T04:10:07Z chitofan: ok thanks :)
2014-08-31T04:11:04Z nyef: ... Mind the dead-code elimination note from the compiler with that one. d-:
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2014-08-31T04:54:09Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-08-31T04:54:14Z Bike: yo.
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2014-08-31T05:08:26Z resttime: are there any good CL libraries working with unix sockets?
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2014-08-31T05:11:08Z phadthai: resttime: iolib, usocket are a few
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2014-08-31T05:19:01Z resttime: hmmm are they able to create sockets like here?: http://linux.die.net/man/2/socket
2014-08-31T05:19:56Z resttime: i have a very rough knowledge with sockets
2014-08-31T05:20:42Z resttime: specifically i need a AF_LOCAL domain with type SOCK_SEQPACKET
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2014-08-31T05:21:28Z resttime: i'm trying to write a wayland compositor in lisp
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2014-08-31T05:22:09Z resttime: a lot of which is beyond my knowledge unforunately
2014-08-31T05:22:17Z resttime: hoping to learn a lot in the process
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2014-08-31T05:24:02Z phadthai: I think that iolib supports AF_LOCAL sockets
2014-08-31T05:27:06Z resttime: oh seems like it does
2014-08-31T05:27:07Z resttime: thanks
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2014-08-31T06:20:17Z beach: It appears that the SBCL implementation of CONSP starts by checking for NIL.  Is that possible, or am I misunderstanding something?  If I am right, why does SBCL do that?
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2014-08-31T06:30:59Z nightfly: because nil is the most common cons value?
2014-08-31T06:32:24Z beach: Well, NIL is not of type CONS.  The only reasonable explanation I can find is that SBCL represents NIL as an object with the same tag as a CONS.
2014-08-31T06:32:55Z beach: I suppose it could do that so that it doesn't have to check for NIL in CAR and CDR.
2014-08-31T06:35:33Z beach: On the other hand, that means that when traversing a list, one would have to make two tests in each iteration, for NIL and for a CONS.
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2014-08-31T06:47:18Z ggole: Why would you have to check for both?
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2014-08-31T06:53:23Z beach: Iteration should continue as long as the remaining list is a CONS.
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2014-08-31T06:53:59Z beach: If NIL has the same tag as a CONS cell, then NIL has to be tested for separately.
2014-08-31T06:55:14Z beach: ggole: Does that make sense?
2014-08-31T06:56:44Z ggole: I would expect that iteration would continue as long as the remaining list is not NIL.
2014-08-31T06:57:08Z beach: No, you have to check for a non-proper list as well.
2014-08-31T06:57:34Z ggole: Won't CDR handle that by falling over?
2014-08-31T06:58:01Z beach: falling over?
2014-08-31T06:58:32Z ggole: Erroring when it discovers that its argument is not a cons.
2014-08-31T06:59:52Z beach: I suppose it could be done that way.  But I don't think it is, because invoking an error handler is kind of expensive.
2014-08-31T07:00:15Z beach: Though, I guess you are right in that most lists would end with NIL.
2014-08-31T07:00:27Z beach: So the error would not be triggered.
2014-08-31T07:01:00Z ggole: Er, if you loop over or use dolist on an improper list, then it *should* error (upon reaching the non-cons "end").
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2014-08-31T07:01:29Z beach: Right.
2014-08-31T07:03:59Z beach: But now, CDR must check for an atom other than NIL.
2014-08-31T07:06:03Z ggole: You should be able to just do a check that the object is a cons cell
2014-08-31T07:06:16Z beach: And how would you do that?
2014-08-31T07:06:24Z beach: Checking the tag?
2014-08-31T07:06:32Z ggole: Using the tag/address/however the impl does it
2014-08-31T07:06:56Z beach: But if my hypothesis is correct that NIL has the same tag as a CONS cell, you first have to check for NIL.
2014-08-31T07:07:09Z xebd`: cf.: "boxing" ... differs from one implementation to the next
2014-08-31T07:07:26Z ggole: No, you make NIL a special cons cell that contains a pair of pointers to itself.
2014-08-31T07:07:40Z ggole: Then (cdr nil) => nil without additional machinery.
2014-08-31T07:08:09Z beach: ggole: OK, let's drop it.  I am not communicating very well today it seems.
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2014-08-31T07:09:25Z ggole: beach: uh, ok
2014-08-31T07:11:40Z xebd`: It would appear that you both are saying the same thing.  If NIL were boxed the same way as a cons cell, then one would need to check "is this a nil?" at the start of CONSP.  i.e., call NIL a "pseudo-cons", perhaps implemented via aforementioned pair of pointers.  (Just be sure that the "self-reference" value for NIL differs from that used for a circular list.)
2014-08-31T07:13:16Z ggole: Right: the idea (as I understand it) is to move costly branches from commonly-executed CAR and CDR to less commonly-executed CONSP, SYMBOLP, etc
2014-08-31T07:13:38Z beach: xebd`: We are not saying the same thing in that I think traversing a list would require two tests in each iteration.
2014-08-31T07:13:51Z xebd`: Or one could box using type ID numbers.  NIL = 0, cons cell = 1.  When ID is 1, you have a cons.  When (= 0 (logand ID (lognot 1))) then one has a valid list.
2014-08-31T07:14:48Z beach: But there is no point in arguing about it.
2014-08-31T07:15:01Z beach: I'll just check the facts instead.
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2014-08-31T07:19:26Z ggole: I think you need two tests anyway, unless you are going to ignore improper lists
2014-08-31T07:22:17Z beach: If NIL is represented as a symbol, so that its tag is different from that of a CONS cell, then in each iteration of traversing a list, a single test is needed, namely for the CONS tag.  At the end of the list (when a non-CONS is reached) another test is required to see whether the atom is NIL or some other atom.
2014-08-31T07:25:29Z xebd`: (mapc #'disassemble `(,#'consp ,#'null))
2014-08-31T07:27:07Z beach: xebd`: Yes, that how it started.  I found that on my machine, CONSP tests for NIL explicitly.
2014-08-31T07:27:47Z beach: xebd`: And then I said that the only reason I could think of for it to do that would be if NIL had the same tag as a CONS, even though it is a symbol.
2014-08-31T07:27:56Z xebd`: Ah, makes sense.  You probed the asm, wondered "WTF?", then started going from there.
2014-08-31T07:28:03Z beach: Yes.
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2014-08-31T07:32:37Z beach: Now, thinking about it some more, it seems to me that this "optimization", i.e., representing NIL with the same tag as a CONS cell, is an optimization only if it is common to call CAR and CDR with NIL.
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2014-08-31T07:34:13Z beach: With NIL represented as a CONS, CAR would look like this: (if (cons-tag-p object) (car-field object) (error ...)).
2014-08-31T07:34:52Z beach: With NIL represented as an ordinary symbol, CAR would look like this: (if (cons-tag-p object) (car-field object) (if (null object) nil (error ...)))
2014-08-31T07:35:40Z beach: If it is not common to call CAR and CDR with NIL as an argument, those two implementations give the same result.
2014-08-31T07:36:17Z beach: And with the latter implementation, traversing a list requires only one test per iteration.
2014-08-31T07:36:57Z xebd`: testing common case first :)
2014-08-31T07:37:07Z beach: Yes, of course.
2014-08-31T07:38:08Z beach: ... so it appears to me that representing NIL as something other than a symbol does not improve performance (it makes it worse) AND it introduces special cases in the code.
2014-08-31T07:39:16Z beach: This is of course the reason why in SICL NIL is an ordinary symbol.  The only news here is that I just realized that in SBCL NIL is NOT an ordinary symbol (as far as I can tell).
2014-08-31T07:42:22Z ggole: I would be wary of claiming performance went one way or the other without measuring it.
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2014-08-31T07:43:14Z beach: Sure, but #lisp is not a peer-reviewed forum, so I am just emitting hypotheses.
2014-08-31T07:44:39Z xebd`: Yeah.  At this point, I probably should RTFS.  I've started probing how SBCL boxes.  Integers appear to be shifted left one bit -- which makes sense as this allows for fast math.
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2014-08-31T07:45:09Z beach: Right, that's pretty standard.
2014-08-31T07:45:31Z xebd`: *nod*
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2014-08-31T07:46:58Z beach: Plus, on x86-64, TEST is faster than CMP (according to Intel), and TEST can be used directly without masking out the tag.
2014-08-31T07:48:04Z xebd`: I forget about test-vs-cmp timing (thought they were the same), but /me can appreciate checking bitfields.
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2014-08-31T07:51:03Z Krystof: in sbcl nil is an ordinary symbol, mostly
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2014-08-31T07:51:34Z beach: Krystof: So why is NIL tested for in CONSP?
2014-08-31T07:51:34Z Krystof: it is a little bit special in that its (internal) hash value is carefully arranged to be equal to the memory address of NIL
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2014-08-31T07:54:11Z Krystof: good question.
2014-08-31T07:54:29Z Krystof: I am wrong.  NIL is not an ordinary symbol
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2014-08-31T07:55:29Z beach: Ah.
2014-08-31T07:56:18Z ggole: Where do you look in the SBCL sources to find answers to such questions? I've found suggestive comments in compiler/x86-64/type-vops.lisp, but nothing really concrete.
2014-08-31T07:56:38Z Krystof: in this case, src/compiler/generic/early-objdef
2014-08-31T07:57:11Z ggole: Hmm, thanks
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2014-08-31T07:57:50Z ggole: Ah, there we go
2014-08-31T07:58:51Z Krystof: also take a look at src/compiler/generic/objdef, the definition of SYMBOL
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2014-08-31T07:59:56Z Krystof: the upshot of all that is that CAR and CDR can test for LISTP in one tag operation, but CONSP effectively needs to test for (AND LISTP (NOT NULL))
2014-08-31T08:00:28Z Krystof: if you make CONSP fast (by having a tag for CONS), then LISTP needs an explicit test for NIL
2014-08-31T08:00:35Z beach: Right.
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2014-08-31T08:02:22Z xebd`: * Unless your tags are carefully selected such that you can do bitwise comparison.
2014-08-31T08:02:32Z beach: I guess I was wrong when I guessed that NIL has the *same* tag as CONS cells.  That's not necessary, as long as its tags are compatible so that a single test is enought.
2014-08-31T08:02:46Z beach: enough.
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2014-08-31T08:03:45Z beach: Krystof: Thanks for the info.  It would have taking me longer to understand the code.
2014-08-31T08:03:58Z ggole: :lowtag and :widetag are the tags for a pointer and the heap-allocated structure pointed to by that pointer, right?
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2014-08-31T08:30:16Z AndroidShoutapop: What do you guys think about for?
2014-08-31T08:30:59Z H4ns: for is a nice short word, it is useful in many ways
2014-08-31T08:31:23Z AndroidShoutapop: I see.
2014-08-31T08:31:44Z AndroidShoutapop: Is "for" considered a macro?
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2014-08-31T08:32:26Z phadthai: a symbol, as part of the language implemented by the loop macro
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2014-08-31T08:51:16Z capitaomorte: Hi all, I've a question about CLOSER-MOP:ADD-DIRECT-SUBCLASS
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2014-08-31T08:51:35Z capitaomorte: I can't get it to work
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2014-08-31T09:01:02Z capitaomorte: Never, mind I figured it out, thanks
2014-08-31T09:01:08Z capitaomorte: http://paste.lisp.org/display/141066 is helpful
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2014-08-31T09:20:02Z beach: AndroidShoutapop: Where did you see an operator named FOR?
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2014-08-31T09:22:02Z AndroidShoutapop: beach: Wait.
2014-08-31T09:22:56Z AndroidShoutapop: beach: Well, I don't CL, but Racket supports it.
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2014-08-31T09:24:16Z beach: It is not an operator in CL.  However, the CL LOOP macro has a "loop keyword" named FOR, which is used to iterate over sequences and some other stuff.
2014-08-31T09:24:38Z AndroidShoutapop: I see.
2014-08-31T09:25:43Z beach: So what was the sense of your question "what do we think about it"?
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2014-08-31T09:26:22Z beach: I mean, what do you think about IF?
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2014-08-31T09:27:26Z beach: I am guessing Racket supports IF as well.
2014-08-31T09:27:37Z AndroidShoutapop: beach: Well, basically, every iterator can be rewritten as recursion, so, yeah.
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2014-08-31T09:27:56Z beach: AndroidShoutapop: Not in CL.
2014-08-31T09:28:04Z AndroidShoutapop: beach: Really?
2014-08-31T09:28:10Z beach: CL does not guarantee tail call elimination.
2014-08-31T09:28:13Z logand`: drmeister: doesnt apply also require consing the arg list?
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2014-08-31T09:28:55Z AndroidShoutapop: beach: I see.
2014-08-31T09:29:03Z logand`: hmm maybe the args are already consed so it is not the problem of apply
2014-08-31T09:30:43Z beach: AndroidShoutapop: I still don't understand your initial question.  Why would anyone have an opinion about FOR?
2014-08-31T09:31:16Z AndroidShoutapop: beach: Basically if they prefer to purely use recursion or itterators
2014-08-31T09:31:28Z beach: Oh, I see.
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2014-08-31T09:32:12Z beach: That sounds like a question for people who are into functional programming and functional programming languages.
2014-08-31T09:32:32Z H4ns: AndroidShoutapop: as cl does not guarantee tail call elimination, recursion is not used for simple iterative things
2014-08-31T09:32:55Z AndroidShoutapop: H4ns: Yeah, beach told me that a while ago.
2014-08-31T09:33:00Z AndroidShoutapop: beach: Mhm, pretty much. :)
2014-08-31T09:34:15Z beach: AndroidShoutapop: Perhaps you mistakenly thought that CL is a functional programming language?  That misconception is quite common.
2014-08-31T09:34:42Z logand`: AndroidShoutapop: there is also a third alternative, generators, ie something like streams, which you call and they give you the next value.
2014-08-31T09:34:44Z AndroidShoutapop: beach: I might have. I don't really CL at all.
2014-08-31T09:34:58Z AndroidShoutapop: logand`: Reading right now.
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2014-08-31T09:49:00Z mood: beach: What's the current status of CLIMatis?
2014-08-31T09:50:10Z beach: mood: Output is working, including distributing space, etc.  Event handling is working too, but I need to connect it to some implementation of presentation types so as to get the nice input functions of CLIM.
2014-08-31T09:50:44Z beach: mood: moore33 has a design of presentation types that we will test some time soon-ish.
2014-08-31T09:51:38Z beach: mood: So there are already some gadgets such as buttons, butcons, scroll bars, etc.
2014-08-31T09:51:56Z mood: beach: butcons?
2014-08-31T09:52:04Z beach: button/icon.
2014-08-31T09:52:07Z mood: ah
2014-08-31T09:52:29Z beach: Seems to be the new thing.  Instead of buttons, there is an array of clickable icons.
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2014-08-31T09:54:32Z beach: Textual input is not working, because I want it to be connected to presentation types.  Therefore Second Climacs can not yet do things like FIND-FILE.
2014-08-31T09:55:59Z beach: mood: Is that what you needed to know?
2014-08-31T09:56:36Z mood: beach: Pretty much. I'm interested in seeing what comes of it.
2014-08-31T09:56:57Z beach: I will definitely keep #lisp informed.
2014-08-31T09:57:21Z beach: moore33 is also working on an OpenGL backend.
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2014-08-31T10:11:56Z brucem: beach: if you're writing your own rendering code ... you might enjoy the "immediate mode gui" stuff that has come from the game dev world. https://mollyrocket.com/861 is the original source of info on that, but I know a number of people who have employed it successfully (and happily).
2014-08-31T10:13:15Z brucem: beach: this is an implementation that I've heard is at least okay (not terrible, not sure if great) in C++: https://github.com/ocornut/imgui
2014-08-31T10:13:44Z brucem: (that implementation is meant for debug tools, not a real gui, so ignore the actual appearance)
2014-08-31T10:14:15Z beach: brucem: Looking now.
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2014-08-31T10:18:35Z beach: brucem: Thanks for pointing this out.  Looks very interesting!
2014-08-31T10:19:01Z brucem: beach: It is a subject on my mind a lot as well. :)
2014-08-31T10:19:17Z brucem: but for now, I'm going to go watch a movie and try to forget that I have a migraine.
2014-08-31T10:19:37Z beach: Oh, sorry to hear that.  Enjoy the movie.
2014-08-31T10:19:47Z brucem: I earned this migraine ... all my own fault.
2014-08-31T10:20:00Z beach: Still...
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2014-08-31T11:49:20Z sepi``: Can anyone recommend me a simple secant method library for cl?
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2014-08-31T12:39:31Z sepi``: Does the cells library allow you to update values of cells in a batch and then trigger update of the network afterwards only?
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2014-08-31T13:17:51Z drmeister: Timing of various C++/CL operations in Clasp:   Code that does timing: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/fa4ba8fca91717d36a41
2014-08-31T13:18:07Z drmeister: Times: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/9405dba45c7687c4f3d9
2014-08-31T13:19:28Z drmeister: This is using the Boehm garbage collector.   Activation frames on the heap are 54 times slower than activation frames on the stack.
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2014-08-31T13:21:24Z drmeister: I use a lot of activation frames and they are almost all on the heap - I'm guessing this is why Clasp is slow right now. A proper compiler would allocate more frames on the stack.
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2014-08-31T13:26:52Z beach: brucem: Interesting stuff, but I am not convinced.  I think the video reveals the disadvantages of traditional programming languages when it comes to creating GUIs.  I do understand the advantages when it comes to unconventional GUIs, but the price is basically having to do a lot of stuff "manually".
2014-08-31T13:27:35Z brucem: beach: yeah, it goes both ways.
2014-08-31T13:28:11Z brucem: beach: but I'd rather be aware of something and toss it than the reverse. :)
2014-08-31T13:28:35Z beach: brucem: Definitely!  That's why I said it is interesting.  It is definitely worth keeping in mind.
2014-08-31T13:29:20Z beach: It might be possible to structure the GUI library so that drawing methods can either be called directly by the user or automatically as part of a "traditional" GUI.
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2014-08-31T13:30:58Z brucem: beach: some of what the react.js and Om people do is interesting as well ... but I'm tired of how the Om people present themselves to the world. (They act a bit too much like a hype machine for my taste.)
2014-08-31T13:31:52Z beach: I'll keep it in mind.
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2014-08-31T13:46:29Z drmeister: logand`: The apply that I'm timing already has a consed list of arguments so it doesn't require further consing.  I know everyone always says "consing is expensive" but until I timed it - I didn't appreciate just how very expensive it is.
2014-08-31T13:47:29Z AeroNotix: what do people recommend for reading/writing binary data (including individual bits)
2014-08-31T13:47:33Z drmeister: It takes almost 1000 ns to cons a list of five elements.
2014-08-31T13:47:44Z AeroNotix: I looked at binary-types, but it includes padding and focuses on bytes rather than bits.
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2014-08-31T14:00:08Z nyef: drmeister: I had a case where the consing wasn't actually all that expensive because it didn't happen too-too often, but constantly having to deal with the type dispatch between a FIXNUM and a BIGNUM was murder.
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2014-08-31T14:02:35Z nyef: (That is, sometimes it's not the consing per se that kills you, sometimes its the consequences of the underlying REASON why you're consing so much.)
2014-08-31T14:03:07Z drmeister: nyef: I hear you.  Currently my FIXNUM's are boxed and dispatching is handled by C++ virtual functions.
2014-08-31T14:04:43Z nyef: Mmm. I was on CMUCL (and later, SBCL) dealing with unsigned-byte 32 values. Would have worked just fine on a 64-bit system, but that wasn't happening for various reasons.
2014-08-31T14:05:27Z drmeister: Right now I'm taking stock of what primitive operations cost.  This is giving me ideas on what to change to use expensive things less.
2014-08-31T14:05:44Z nyef: Since FIXNUMs were S-B 30, that meant that a decent chunk of consing was happening, and EVERY operation needed to do a type test and dispatch or just fault to the generic call.
2014-08-31T14:06:22Z drmeister: Frame allocation for instance.  On the heap it's 50x more expensive than on the stack. I should use heap based frames as little as possible (only for closures).
2014-08-31T14:07:36Z drmeister: I didn't think the type tests are that expensive.
2014-08-31T14:08:06Z nyef: Or use a separate stack-like space, allocated with a simple pointer bump, that gets hit with a GC pass to evict frames to the heap when it fills up?
2014-08-31T14:08:25Z drmeister: Maybe it's because I'm in a different, much, much slower realm?  You are trying to squeeze out every cycle.  I'm trying to get programs to finish before the sun goes nova.
2014-08-31T14:08:40Z nyef: The *tests* aren't that expensive, but kiss your branch predictor and cache space goodbye.
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2014-08-31T14:09:03Z nyef: My runtimes went from ten hours to seconds.
2014-08-31T14:09:36Z nyef: It was a computer simulator, so there was a lot going on in terms of u-b 32 values.
2014-08-31T14:09:47Z drmeister: Oh god, I don't think about branch predictors or cache space other than "use the cache Luke".
2014-08-31T14:09:57Z drmeister: LLVM handles those details.
2014-08-31T14:11:18Z nyef: You're going to get there eventually, once you start focusing on things like numeric performance rather than function-calling performance.
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2014-08-31T14:12:09Z drmeister: I'm being cryptic.  I worry that I might be in over my head when you mention stuff like that. I hoped I could write a compiler that uses LLVM as the backend and not have to worry too much about the really low level details.
2014-08-31T14:12:17Z nyef: (And, speaking of, a number of the "classic" lisp benchmarks are probably the sort of thing that you could use as initial optimization targets at this point.)
2014-08-31T14:13:22Z drmeister: Or that other people would come on board who love to worry about those details and they could run with it.
2014-08-31T14:14:07Z AeroNotix: Make it work first
2014-08-31T14:14:16Z AeroNotix: the last couple of weeks you've been microfocusing
2014-08-31T14:14:21Z AeroNotix: instead of making it out the door
2014-08-31T14:14:38Z drmeister: I realize now that I was extremely naive when I started this project. I think I've made remarkable progress and even done some new and exciting things like use C++ static analysis to incorporate a compacting GC library.
2014-08-31T14:14:48Z |3b|: drmeister: yeah, you can probably get a good bit faster before worrying about that stuff, sounds like you still have lots of obvious (if not easy) things to fix :)
2014-08-31T14:15:09Z nyef: Three things. First, all abstractions leak. Second, branch predictors are affected by the number of branches (they can only store data about so many branches at once) and their behavior, with essentially-unpredictable branching at every call meaning that they can't actually predict anything useful. Third, caches have finite size, so the more code/data in your working set, the harder they get hit.
2014-08-31T14:15:17Z drmeister: My Common Lisp even works! It's slow at the moment but I'm starting to see where they major problems lie and they are fixable.
2014-08-31T14:15:24Z |3b|: drmeister: lots of things would never get done if people knew they were impossible :)
2014-08-31T14:15:28Z pnpuff: User patience is very difficult to parallelise
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2014-08-31T14:16:57Z drmeister: nyef: I'm saving that last post about branch predictors.  Could you say a bit more about "abstractions leak"?
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2014-08-31T14:19:56Z nyef: drmeister: Sure. We'll use chemistry as an example. Valance-bond theory is an abstraction. It leaks, because there are places where it doesn't predict reality correctly and you need to use something else for those cases. The next something else also has places where it mis-predicts reality. It leaks...
2014-08-31T14:20:43Z nyef: LCAO theory is an abstraction. It leaks quite badly in places. There are better, more recent theories, but they don't perfectly predict reality, because they leak.
2014-08-31T14:21:09Z drmeister: I see what you mean.
2014-08-31T14:21:53Z nyef: Going back to Lisp and compilers, being able to allocate memory forever and having the GC clean it up is an abstraction. It leaks.
2014-08-31T14:22:01Z drmeister: My current abstraction is that LLVM will handle all the low level details and generate fast native code as long as I use as I do as much work on the stack as possible.
2014-08-31T14:23:49Z nyef: Right, and that's probably a good abstraction to work with for now, although you might want to broaden your idea of a "stack" a bit to include other constructs with similar allocation speed.
2014-08-31T14:23:53Z drmeister: nyef: I see.  When I used reference counted pointers it leaked so badly (cycles) I couldn't run anything longer than 1/2 hour.  Using Boehm it leaks less but still leaks.  Using MPS I haven't run long enough to observe leaking.
2014-08-31T14:23:57Z nyef: But you already know that it leaks.
2014-08-31T14:24:33Z nyef: Abstraction leakage is different from GC memory leakage, but yeah.
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2014-08-31T14:25:23Z drmeister: nyef: I understand the difference.  I was playing on the ambiguity of meaning.
2014-08-31T14:25:43Z nyef: Okay, fair enough. (-:
2014-08-31T14:26:11Z nyef: And, in case I haven't said it yet or recently, I'm impressed at the amount of work you've put into this project and how far you've gotten with it.
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2014-08-31T14:29:26Z drmeister: Our models are just that.  When I teach chemistry I say the best models are Shrodingers equation and the Boltzmann equation but we can't grind through the calculations to predict anything useful. Simpler abstractions are faster to apply but they each have their domain of applicability. Mastering a field means knowing how to use the models and in what cases they apply and when they loose their predictive power.
2014-08-31T14:31:44Z drmeister: nyef: Thank you.   I really appreciate it. Taking 30 seconds to load the compiled native code for ASDF (when ECL takes a fraction of a second) took the wind out of my sails for a couple of days.
2014-08-31T14:32:46Z drmeister: I thought "what have I wrought?" Have I spent three years building a toy?
2014-08-31T14:33:33Z drmeister: But I think it's fixable. More stack, less heap.
2014-08-31T14:34:36Z nyef: More stack, or a linearly allocated heap segment, less straight-up heap allocation is a good start. Or even have a linked list of fixed-size activation records to pull from or something.
2014-08-31T14:34:45Z AeroNotix: any libraries which help with writing bits to streams?
2014-08-31T14:34:49Z AeroNotix: not bytes?
2014-08-31T14:35:16Z drmeister: After all, LLVM (it's name Low Level Virtual Machine doesn't describe what it does these days) is a backend for a C/C++ compiler. Everything is done in registers and the stack.  Heap allocation is a library function.
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2014-08-31T14:36:15Z mood: AeroNotix: Well, an (UNSIGNED-BYTE 1) is a bit, so if you have a stream with that as an element type you can write bits using WRITE-BYTE
2014-08-31T14:36:28Z nyef: Sure, but linear-allocation of a dedicated heap segment can be as simple as incrementing one register and comparing it against another to see if you overflowed the segment.
2014-08-31T14:36:49Z AeroNotix: mood: strange
2014-08-31T14:37:06Z drmeister: nyef: Your point is a good one.   The MPS does linearly allocated pointer bumping allocation. I'm just recompiling everything to look at the cost of heap frame allocation with MPS.   It could be very different from Boehm.  If it is, then it means I've got something else to worry about.
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2014-08-31T14:38:45Z AeroNotix: mood: I want to be able to write individual bytes and bits to the same stream
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2014-08-31T14:38:46Z AeroNotix: without padding
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2014-08-31T14:39:16Z mood: AeroNotix: I'm not sure how to do that
2014-08-31T14:40:07Z nyef: AeroNotix: So you need to be providing both the value and its size when you write, and providing the size of value that you want when you read, and that's assuming that you're not using a variable-length encoding based on shannon entropy...
2014-08-31T14:40:15Z nyef: Right?
2014-08-31T14:40:18Z AeroNotix: wat
2014-08-31T14:40:25Z AeroNotix: shannon entropy
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2014-08-31T14:40:55Z drmeister: I've got the numbers now: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/b17e6895c7a10654052e
2014-08-31T14:40:59Z nyef: Yeah. We're talking information entropy, not heat dissipation (even if they're the same thing at a low level).
2014-08-31T14:41:33Z AeroNotix: nyef: you don't need to provide size and value
2014-08-31T14:41:41Z AeroNotix: nyef: the protocol might be agreed upon before hand
2014-08-31T14:41:46Z drmeister: The way I'm using the MPS library it is slow for the same things that Boehm is slow.
2014-08-31T14:42:00Z nyef: I meant to the functions doing the reading or writing, not in the channel.
2014-08-31T14:42:34Z AeroNotix: nyef: well I wanted to just implement it as (read-n-bits n stream)
2014-08-31T14:42:54Z nyef: AeroNotix: Okay, so that's what I was trying to get at. You're providing the expected length.
2014-08-31T14:43:22Z nyef: And reading a byte would presumably either be (read-n-bits 8 stream) or do some alignment first?
2014-08-31T14:43:29Z AeroNotix: nyef: no alignment
2014-08-31T14:44:38Z nyef: Hrm. Honestly? I'd probably not bother looking for a library, it's all straightforward bit-manipulation.
2014-08-31T14:44:42Z drmeister: Allocation with MPS should be really, really fast.  The timings above probably include the cost of cleaning up as well.
2014-08-31T14:44:45Z nyef: And not much of it at that.
2014-08-31T14:44:45Z AeroNotix: nyef: so what APIs should I be looking at. I find CLHS hard to get real deep information
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2014-08-31T14:45:48Z pnpuff: MPS the file reader object?
2014-08-31T14:46:19Z nyef: Assuming that you want a well-defined on-disk format (or on-wire format) create your streams as (unsigned-byte 8) streams, use read-byte and write-byte internally, and buffer the bits read or written until you have a full byte of output or have used up the full byte of input.
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2014-08-31T14:46:50Z nyef: You'll also be looking at LDB and DPB or LOGAND, LOGIOR, and ASH.
2014-08-31T14:46:51Z AeroNotix: nyef: hmm, I was thinking about buffering the bits, but what if the final output is not aligned to 8-bits?
2014-08-31T14:46:57Z AeroNotix: nyef: I've been using ldb
2014-08-31T14:47:34Z nyef: Add a function to pad out to the alignment boundary and write the last byte out.
2014-08-31T14:47:56Z AeroNotix: nyef: this was my backup plan, I was hoping there would be better support for bits
2014-08-31T14:48:00Z AeroNotix: but ok, I'll go ahead with this.
2014-08-31T14:48:57Z AeroNotix: nyef: is there something to get the bit-size of something?
2014-08-31T14:49:11Z nyef: If you want to get really clever there's the Gray Streams protocol, and you could define the new bitwise read/write functions on your new stream class and have CLOSE (and possibly (SETF FILE-POSITION)) do the intelligent thing with the last few bits in the buffer.
2014-08-31T14:49:19Z nyef: INTEGER-LENGTH.
2014-08-31T14:49:22Z AeroNotix: nyef: thanks
2014-08-31T14:50:15Z AeroNotix: nyef: yes and that way I could take any stream and wrap it with my own bit-oriented stream, right?
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2014-08-31T14:50:19Z nyef: But that basically gives the bit position of the highest set bit, not the size of the underlying storage.
2014-08-31T14:50:49Z nyef: Any binary or bivalent stream, yes. It makes less sense to try it on a character stream, for example.
2014-08-31T14:50:54Z AeroNotix: sure
2014-08-31T14:51:16Z nyef: Heh. Back to chemistry again. (-:
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2014-08-31T14:52:49Z eudoxia: can anyone (ql:quickload :hermetic) and tell me how long (hermetic:hash "test") takes?
2014-08-31T14:53:05Z eudoxia: Ironclad's PBKDF2 is being horrendously slow on my computer and it wasn't before
2014-08-31T14:53:45Z nyef: drmeister: SBCL goes to quite a bit of trouble to minimize the scope of closures stored in the heap, and can also stack-allocate closures under certain circumstances.
2014-08-31T14:54:02Z nyef: drmeister: That might help in your quest to stack-allocate more stuff.
2014-08-31T14:54:35Z Bike: eudoxia: 0.202 seconds of real time
2014-08-31T14:54:35Z AeroNotix: eudoxia: https://gist.github.com/AeroNotix/4030a78575829f7a9591
2014-08-31T14:54:48Z mood: eudoxia: around 0.7 seconds of real time
2014-08-31T14:54:50Z Bike: also i got a whole shitload of named readtables errors trying to load it. weird.
2014-08-31T14:55:52Z eudoxia: ouch
2014-08-31T14:56:00Z eudoxia: at least i
2014-08-31T14:56:08Z Bike: oh, and 37 MB consed.
2014-08-31T14:56:08Z eudoxia: at least i'm glad it's just a problem on my end*
2014-08-31T14:56:31Z eudoxia: Bike: were those anything like readtable conflicts?
2014-08-31T14:56:52Z Bike: yes, something about cl-annot and #\#. i just told it to continue through dozens of them as clack loaded
2014-08-31T14:57:08Z eudoxia: yeah, i've been getting those too
2014-08-31T14:57:21Z eudoxia: solution is to git checkout to the second-to-last commit of named-readtabes
2014-08-31T14:57:25Z eudoxia: named-readtables*
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2014-08-31T14:57:39Z eudoxia: >took 65,324 milliseconds (65.324 seconds) to run.
2014-08-31T14:57:46Z eudoxia: >4,119,531,608 bytes of memory allocated.
2014-08-31T14:57:49Z eudoxia: well ok
2014-08-31T14:58:04Z Bike: gotta hash thoroughly
2014-08-31T14:59:24Z eudoxia: gonna test this on a virtual machine
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2014-08-31T15:02:32Z eudoxia: SBCL 1.2.3, 0.7 seconds precisely
2014-08-31T15:02:50Z eudoxia: i guess my problems was CCL :P
2014-08-31T15:03:39Z fortitude: eudoxia: with crane, did you intend to require a connected database to define new tables?
2014-08-31T15:03:43Z mood: eudoxia: But still, the amount of consing is insane. It's 100mb for me
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2014-08-31T15:04:17Z eudoxia: fortitude: no, see https://github.com/eudoxia0/hermetic/blob/master/contrib/crane/crane.lisp
2014-08-31T15:04:38Z eudoxia: fortitude: the creation of tables is deferred until the user calls build on them manually
2014-08-31T15:04:45Z eudoxia: i think that's the right use of deferred
2014-08-31T15:05:00Z fortitude: eudoxia: that's what I was expecting, but your fix for issue #5 broke it
2014-08-31T15:05:09Z fortitude: wasn't sure what your intent was
2014-08-31T15:05:24Z eudoxia: fortitude: i haven't touched hermetic's crane integration in a while, yeah, it's probably broken
2014-08-31T15:05:43Z eudoxia: thanks for pointing that out, i'll take a look at it
2014-08-31T15:05:54Z fortitude: eudoxia: the problem is in your mop finalization, you check to see if the db type is sqlite
2014-08-31T15:06:00Z eudoxia: mood: yeah it's pretty bad but at least it finishes within a second
2014-08-31T15:06:05Z fortitude: seems like it could be tricky to fix
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2014-08-31T15:07:25Z eudoxia: fortitude: i think there might be a simple fix. moving the call to closer-mop:finalize-inheritance away from the deftable macro and to the build function
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2014-08-31T15:08:01Z fortitude: eudoxia: I'm not expert on either crane or mop, but isn't the idea to avoid generating the object-id slot, and don't you have to do that in the mop stuff?
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2014-08-31T15:09:23Z eudoxia: fortitude: no, the idea is that Sqlite has a special snowflake way of declaring autoincrementing IDs. so we still generate that slot, just with a key that indicates "crane, this table is on sqlite3, do the special snowflake thing"
2014-08-31T15:10:02Z fortitude: eudoxia: ah yes, that should work then
2014-08-31T15:10:47Z eudoxia: fortitude: out of curiosity, have you been using crane for anything?
2014-08-31T15:10:56Z eudoxia: maybe... in production, backing a webapp? :)
2014-08-31T15:12:11Z fortitude: eudoxia: not in production, but it keeps seeming like the right thing for porting our (horrible, statically-defined-global-buffer-based) application to something saner
2014-08-31T15:13:06Z fortitude: at one point I started writing out table definitions for our schema so that I could work on fixing them
2014-08-31T15:13:19Z fortitude: which was when the mop error started tripping me up
2014-08-31T15:13:53Z eudoxia: i probably didn't notice, since what i usually do is configure crane, connect and then define the tables
2014-08-31T15:14:37Z fortitude: eudoxia: our current language requires a db connection to compile, so I was moderately horrified when I noticed the issue :p
2014-08-31T15:15:04Z fortitude: eudoxia: not that a static schema-check is bad, but it works a lot better when it can be done at runtime instead of during compilation
2014-08-31T15:17:07Z eudoxia: i never really had much faith for using the type system to check schemas or SQL statements
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2014-08-31T15:17:36Z logand``: drmeister: true, the args are already consed for the apply;  but in general, using apply means that the args have to be consed, so it's better to avoid using apply when possible
2014-08-31T15:17:50Z eudoxia: fortitude: made the change, i'm running the tests now. this will take some time.
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2014-08-31T15:18:51Z fortitude: eudoxia: no worries, it's not holding anything up
2014-08-31T15:18:52Z drmeister: logand``: Understood.  This is a profiling exercise rather than general programming.  I'm trying to get at what it is about my system that is slow.  I broke out all of the steps of APPLY and time what happens when I use more and more steps.
2014-08-31T15:20:12Z drmeister: In my APPLY I currently allocate a frame on the heap to fill with the values in the args passed to (APPLY fn args).  That turns out to be the most expensive (by far) stage.  I'm investigating allocating that on the stack.  It's tricky because I need to do this in C++.
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2014-08-31T15:20:20Z nyef: drmeister: The "must cons for APPLY" thing ties into the discussion of SBCL's use of unknown-values stack packets last night. IIRC, APPLY is implemented in terms of M-V-CALL in SBCL.
2014-08-31T15:20:31Z drmeister: Allocating variable length arrays (VLA's) or using alloca is non-standard.
2014-08-31T15:21:56Z drmeister: nyef: I have two problems.  I need to have two APPLY functions, one generated by my compiled code and one in my C++ code.
2014-08-31T15:23:05Z drmeister: I need a lot of lisp-like functionality in C++ to bootstrap.
2014-08-31T15:23:35Z logand``: AeroNotix: you might not need to deal with Gray Streams or any of the CLOS, you could simply write a generator which you can funcall and it will give you the n-bit value from the stream as you want
2014-08-31T15:23:38Z drmeister: I don't think the C++ APPLY is used that often but it's a model for how I do lisp-like things in C++.
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2014-08-31T15:25:05Z logand``: AeroNotix: something like (defun make-bit-stream (cl-stream) (lambda (nbits) ...))
2014-08-31T15:25:49Z nyef: Hrm.
2014-08-31T15:25:59Z logand``: AeroNotix: and (read-n-bits n stream) would be (defun read-n-bits (n bit-stream) (funcall bit-stream n))
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2014-08-31T15:26:40Z nyef: I can't help but think that there's something to the idea of having separate Lisp and C stacks, or maybe just a separate Lisp DATA stack and use the C stack for control information...
2014-08-31T15:27:39Z AeroNotix: logand``: I'll look into it
2014-08-31T15:29:45Z logand``: the interesting bit is the three dots inside the closure; there you'd need to do the bit fiddling and caching of the byte parts which were read from the cl-stream but not yet returned from the bit-stream
2014-08-31T15:30:36Z AeroNotix: logand``: the read is easier than the byte
2014-08-31T15:30:41Z AeroNotix: that the write*
2014-08-31T15:30:52Z AeroNotix: logand``: with read I can just read in bytes and extract the bits I need
2014-08-31T15:30:58Z AeroNotix: whereas with bytes I need to cache
2014-08-31T15:31:00Z eudoxia: fortitude: hm my fix didn't solve it, i'm gonna have to come up with something else. the MOP code could use the cleanup, given that it's a hack wrapped in a hack inside an ABSTRACT-SPECIALIZER-HACK
2014-08-31T15:31:02Z AeroNotix: with READS
2014-08-31T15:31:04Z AeroNotix: jesus
2014-08-31T15:33:28Z logand``: AeroNotix: you need to cache in both cases;  what happens when you read one bit?  do you throw the remaining 7 bits away?
2014-08-31T15:33:55Z AeroNotix: logand``: No, I can read a whole byte and then extract the bits I need
2014-08-31T15:34:03Z AeroNotix: logand``: the protocol is well-specified
2014-08-31T15:34:13Z AeroNotix: I need to write 1 bit, and then 7 bits
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2014-08-31T15:34:31Z AeroNotix: I'm thinking instead of making it general I just make that 1+7 into a whole byte and just use WRITE-BYTE
2014-08-31T15:34:35Z nyef: eudoxia: I think that you've managed to scare me away from considering using crane as anything other than possible inspiration at this point.
2014-08-31T15:34:39Z AeroNotix: I wanted to make it general though
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2014-08-31T15:35:24Z nyef: eudoxia: That's at least partly my dislike of MOPpery, though.
2014-08-31T15:35:24Z logand``: AeroNotix: well if you want the knowledge of your protocol to leak into the implementation of the bit stream...
2014-08-31T15:36:09Z dxtr: Hi! I want to learn common lisp and was wondering what the (current?) recommended and/or most common implementation is. sbcl?
2014-08-31T15:36:09Z AeroNotix: logand``: sure, it's a bit gross
2014-08-31T15:36:15Z eudoxia: nyef: oh let's not exaggerate the code holds up fine
2014-08-31T15:37:01Z nyef: (Okay, and partly the fundamental mismatch between our approaches to migrations.)
2014-08-31T15:37:42Z eudoxia: nyef: well the Django team originally started with migrations that were basically a series of SQL statements to move "forwards" and "backwards"
2014-08-31T15:37:53Z eudoxia: nyef: then switched to just storing metadata of the tables at some point in time
2014-08-31T15:38:11Z eudoxia: which is what i'm doing, so in an abstract kind of way crane is as good as the django ORM
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2014-08-31T15:38:22Z phadthai: dxtr: sbcl is very maintained and supported by libraries if you want a free and opensource implementation; also consider emacs+slime
2014-08-31T15:38:26Z logand``: nyef: just saw you recommended INTEGER-LENGTH, useful, much better than (ceiling (log x 2)), thanks:-)
2014-08-31T15:38:47Z phadthai: dxtr: emacs+slime as ide companion to sbcl, that is
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2014-08-31T15:39:19Z phadthai: dxtr: the quicklisp library should also help to get started
2014-08-31T15:40:07Z eudoxia: dxtr: do you come from some other programming language or would CL be your first?
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2014-08-31T15:42:47Z logand``: dxtr: sbcl or ccl
2014-08-31T15:43:27Z dxtr: phadthai: Thanks a lot!
2014-08-31T15:43:39Z dxtr: eudoxia: I code C, Java, Perl, Python and PHP :p
2014-08-31T15:43:50Z dxtr: And C++. But I don't speak of that.
2014-08-31T15:44:26Z dxtr: logand``: Thanks!
2014-08-31T15:44:47Z phadthai: dxtr: since you also program in C, ECL may also be interesting if you intend to mix inline-C and Lisp, or to embed Lisp in applications
2014-08-31T15:45:22Z eudoxia: dxtr: ok. you probably want SBCL. Quicklisp is the package manager and is pretty simple to set up. now, using SBCL from the console isn't ideal, so you probably want Emacs+SLIME. you don't have to drink the emacs kool aid, it's just that SLIME gives you the best Lisp REPL out there, and is a much more comfortable experience.
2014-08-31T15:45:42Z phadthai: and since you already programmed, Practical Common Lisp may be a good starting book, and it's available online
2014-08-31T15:46:32Z dxtr: eudoxia: Actually, I used to drink the emacs kool aid when I was younger. I use vim nowadays but actually started working with emacs the other day again, because "why not?"
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2014-08-31T15:48:10Z eudoxia: dxtr: i used vim with CL, but ended up moving to emacs, mostly because SLIME gradually won me over
2014-08-31T15:48:38Z eudoxia: at some point i used Sublime to edit the Lisp code, then copy-pasted it over to an Emacs+SLIME screen, and eventually realized that was terrible and switched to Emacs-only
2014-08-31T15:49:11Z phadthai: there also is slimv, but slime is more complete and has more support and users
2014-08-31T15:50:32Z nyef: Seriously, though. Your favorite editor, copy and paste, and rlwrap should be more than sufficient to get started.
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2014-08-31T15:53:51Z wasamasa: rlwrap is pretty awesome
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2014-08-31T15:53:56Z wasamasa: it even works on cat
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2014-08-31T16:02:18Z sepi``: How can I create something like interfaces in cl?
2014-08-31T16:03:07Z nyef: ... User interfaces?
2014-08-31T16:03:46Z eudoxia: nah, things like java interfaces
2014-08-31T16:03:50Z eudoxia: or type classes i guess
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2014-08-31T16:06:43Z sepi``: yeah
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2014-08-31T16:06:59Z sepi``: more like java interfaces
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2014-08-31T16:07:28Z eudoxia: generic functions do more or less that, i think
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2014-08-31T16:08:10Z nyef: Yeah, I'd be looking for a decently-coherent set of generic functions and possibly abstract classes, preferably with documentation.
2014-08-31T16:08:32Z nyef: Wasn't there something about "protocol oriented programming" that's germane here?
2014-08-31T16:08:51Z xebd`:  But I think it's fixable. More stack, less heap.
2014-08-31T16:09:09Z xebd`: drmeister: Or... see if you can fix the heap. ;)
2014-08-31T16:09:38Z xebd`: drmeister: Yes, I know that you're using LLVM-IR.  However, there exist a variety of different allocators.
2014-08-31T16:09:55Z drmeister: "heap" is short-hand for "interacting with the Boehm or MPS garbage collector".
2014-08-31T16:11:06Z drmeister: The MPS garbage collector is twice as fast as the Boehm garbage collector.  However, the MPS garbage collector is more strongly impacted by a deep stack.  Both my interpreter and compiler generate deep stacks.
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2014-08-31T16:11:30Z sepi``: nyef: eudoxia: thanks for the hints
2014-08-31T16:11:49Z sepi``: Generic functions seem like a good idea
2014-08-31T16:12:04Z drmeister: I'm not using new/delete or malloc/free here.   I'm allocating with the garbage collector and the garbage collector is cleaning up after itself.
2014-08-31T16:12:40Z drmeister: I'm working with someone at Ravenbrook as we speak (by Skype) and they are pondering my new results.
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2014-08-31T16:15:23Z drmeister: The thing is, ECL uses the Boehm garbage collector as well.  They don't have a faster Boehm collector than I do - they must be using it less by doing more work on the stack (or using stack-like allocation).
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2014-08-31T16:17:08Z drmeister: Hence "more stack, less heap".
2014-08-31T16:17:15Z xebd`: drmeister: When are you using stack versus heap?  If you know that an item has sufficiently-short extent, are you allocating on the stack -- e.g. via alloca() ?
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2014-08-31T16:19:43Z drmeister: I don't know anything about extent. That's the thing.  My compiler (written in Common Lisp) isn't very sophisticated. It takes S-expressions straight to LLVM-IR.  I want to write a more sophisticated compiler that builds an abstract syntax tree and does optimizing transformations on that tree.
2014-08-31T16:20:41Z eudoxia: I did Sexps->IR (strings) once
2014-08-31T16:20:44Z eudoxia: it wasn't a good idea
2014-08-31T16:21:10Z drmeister: I'm modifying my activation handling code so that it will work on frames allocated on the stack as well as the heap.  Then there is a common interface to talk to activation frames both on the stack and the heap.
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2014-08-31T16:22:53Z drmeister: Frames on the heap are necessary for closures. Frames on the stack would be 50x faster. Most frames would be on the stack.  Right now I can't figure out what can go where so I play it safe (and slow) by putting everything on the heap.
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2014-08-31T16:26:12Z drmeister: There is a bootstrapping issue here as well, all this functionality has to be accessible to C++, and I've made it so.  This is because when I bootstrap my system I do it from scratch.  It's not like SBCL where you compile it with some other Lisp.  I have to boot from a C++ written executable.  A very slow interpreter starts up and starts executing Common lisp, defining macros, loading the compiler.
2014-08-31T16:26:15Z nyef: That's PHYSENVANAL in SBCL.
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2014-08-31T16:27:09Z drmeister: Then the compiler starts compiling the Common Lisp code that has been read into the interpreter up to that point. At this point the compiler is running in the slow interpreter.  Once the compiler has compiled itself then it can be used to compile CLOS and start up the entire system.
2014-08-31T16:27:17Z nyef: Looking to see which (if any) variables in a frame are closed over (and then, with a more rigorous analysis, closed over by a function NOT marked DYNAMIC-EXTENT) and thus must be somewhat heap-allocated.
2014-08-31T16:27:24Z eudoxia: nyef: what a name
2014-08-31T16:27:28Z drmeister: All of this works by allocating all activation frames via the garbage collector which is slow.
2014-08-31T16:27:43Z nyef: eudoxia: Yeah, PHYSical ENVironment ANALysis.
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2014-08-31T16:30:15Z drmeister: nyef: Could you expand on that a little more.  Because figuring out if a variable needs to be on the heap or the stack is something that I still don't understand.  I've danced around the concept for years, read books, read papers and I haven't gotten it. I could really use a good explanation for this. It would be a conceptual breakthrough that I sorely need.
2014-08-31T16:31:21Z nyef: Okay, let's talk about functions and variables.
2014-08-31T16:31:34Z nyef: And build from there.
2014-08-31T16:31:36Z drmeister: People keep pointing me at this paper or that book and the literature goes on and on about other stuff that seems unrelated.  Question: for Common Lisp how does one decide if a binding needs to be on the stack or the heap.
2014-08-31T16:32:00Z drmeister: nyef: Ok, I am at your knee.
2014-08-31T16:32:05Z nyef: Are you looking for "how" as in method, or "how" as in criteria?
2014-08-31T16:32:06Z drmeister: (figuratively)
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2014-08-31T16:32:39Z drmeister: How as in method.  As concrete a description of the algorithm given Common Lisp semantics as possible.
2014-08-31T16:33:24Z nyef: So, you have your functions and you have your variables. Your functions can set up sub-functions to pass as return values or to yet further functions.
2014-08-31T16:34:00Z nyef: Functions can refer to any variable that they can "see", that is that is defined in a lexically enclosing form.
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2014-08-31T16:34:22Z isoraqathedh: Using flet?
2014-08-31T16:34:37Z drmeister: nyef: Yes.
2014-08-31T16:34:42Z nyef: isoraqathedh: FLET, LABELS, LAMBDA, whatever.
2014-08-31T16:35:31Z isoraqathedh: Ah, alright.
2014-08-31T16:35:36Z drmeister: FLET/LABELS functions can be returned from functions - some of these things I haven't considered although I have implemented them.
2014-08-31T16:35:46Z nyef: When these sub-functions are taken as data (using the FUNCTION operator), there is the possibility that they "escape", that is that they can have an extent longer than the call frame that creates them.
2014-08-31T16:36:03Z nyef: Umm... Actually, back up a sec.
2014-08-31T16:36:21Z drmeister: Right FUNCTION is the only thing that creates closures - right?
2014-08-31T16:36:24Z drmeister: Go on.
2014-08-31T16:36:49Z nyef: When these sub-functions are taken as data (using the FUNCTION operator), and they refer to any variable that they don't themselves define (thus, from an outer scope), they are known as "closures".
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2014-08-31T16:37:56Z nyef: Typically implemented involving some kind of heap object pointing to the actual implementation of the function and to where to find the variables that are closed over.
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2014-08-31T16:38:59Z nyef: Now, we'll cover just the simple case, ignoring dynamic-extent based optimizations (which get tricky).
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2014-08-31T16:39:46Z drmeister: I'm following
2014-08-31T16:40:22Z nyef: Umm... And we'll also not cover the difference between a variable that is only modified prior to creating the closure and a variable that is modified after creating the closure (either by the closure function or by some other agency).
2014-08-31T16:40:34Z nyef: Since that's also a further complexity.
2014-08-31T16:40:37Z drmeister: Ok
2014-08-31T16:41:50Z nyef: So, if the closure is a heap object then the closed-over variables should also be on the heap.
2014-08-31T16:42:12Z nyef: But only those variables need to be on the heap. Any other variables can stay on the stack.
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2014-08-31T16:43:03Z drmeister: Tell me when I can ask a question.
2014-08-31T16:43:08Z nyef: Go ahead.
2014-08-31T16:43:25Z nyef: (Yes, this is all basic background information that you possibly already know.)
2014-08-31T16:43:44Z drmeister: (let ((x 1)) (let ((y 2)) (+ x y)))   -->  neither x nor y need to be on the heap.
2014-08-31T16:43:56Z nyef: Correct.
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2014-08-31T16:44:32Z drmeister: I may get the syntax wrong so we can try to get the syntax right first.
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2014-08-31T16:45:27Z drmeister: (let ((x 1)) (function (lambda (a) (+ x a)))   --> x needs to be on the heap.
2014-08-31T16:46:20Z nyef: For the simple analysis, correct.
2014-08-31T16:46:45Z nyef: But you also are doing a heap allocation for the closure itself.
2014-08-31T16:47:35Z drmeister: Yes, all of my closure's are on the heap.
2014-08-31T16:48:40Z nyef: So your first level of analysis needs to be able to look at each variable in the overall set of functions, know which function binds it, and which functions refer to it.
2014-08-31T16:48:47Z drmeister: I'm trying to frame another question - it's tricky.
2014-08-31T16:48:59Z nyef: If these sets of functions differ, then the variable must be heap-allocated.
2014-08-31T16:49:10Z drmeister: Hmm, that's interesting.
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2014-08-31T16:49:27Z nyef: That's IT for the first level of analysis.
2014-08-31T16:49:34Z drmeister: You mean functions or the special operator FUNCTION?
2014-08-31T16:50:26Z nyef: The special operator, as it's the only way to coerce a function (by FLET or LABELS) to the data namespace so that it can escape in the first place.
2014-08-31T16:50:39Z nyef: Well, sort of.
2014-08-31T16:51:07Z nyef: Your FLET or LABELS will still need to be able to find any of the variables that they close over.
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2014-08-31T16:51:18Z ggole: It's not really right to think of function *creating* a closure, since you don't want (list #'foo #'foo #'foo) to create three different closures.
2014-08-31T16:51:20Z nyef: But they don't need to be heap-allocated unless FUNCTION is involved.
2014-08-31T16:51:28Z resttime: i think i found a bug in iolib
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2014-08-31T16:52:02Z resttime: use this key arguement (iolib:make-socket-pair :type :datagram) doesn't work
2014-08-31T16:52:18Z nyef: ggole: (lambda (x) (flet ((foo () (1+ x))) (list #'foo #'foo #'foo))) creates between one and three closures, depending on compiler smarts.
2014-08-31T16:52:25Z resttime: every other key arguement seems fine though
2014-08-31T16:52:38Z resttime: can someone else confirm check for this bug?
2014-08-31T16:52:43Z nyef: Assuming that we speak of a closure as a heap object.
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2014-08-31T16:53:41Z nyef: resttime: What sort of "doesn't work"?
2014-08-31T16:53:58Z drmeister: One complication I have is my activation frames keeps variables that are bound in the same LET in the same activation frame.
2014-08-31T16:54:08Z resttime: invalid initialization arguments
2014-08-31T16:54:30Z resttime: :output-buffer-size, :input-buffer-size, :external-format
2014-08-31T16:54:41Z resttime: but only if using the key arguement :type
2014-08-31T16:54:42Z drmeister: (let ((x 1) (y 2)) (function (lambda (a) (+ x a ))))   -> Only x needs to be on the heap but I keep x and y together in the same activation frame.
2014-08-31T16:54:56Z nyef: drmeister: So, what you can do is to flag the closed-over variables as needing special handling, like SBCL does for "value cells".
2014-08-31T16:54:58Z drmeister: Is that a serious problem?
2014-08-31T16:55:22Z drmeister: Or is it just a deoptimization.
2014-08-31T16:55:37Z nyef: It's a deoptimization, but it's also one that's straightforward to finesse.
2014-08-31T16:55:50Z ggole: drmeister: it could result in y living for too long, which is pretty poor form
2014-08-31T16:56:33Z ggole: How serious a problem that is is an interesting question.
2014-08-31T16:56:50Z nyef: SBCL has a VALUE-CELL type that contains a single slot. They get heap-allocated when a variable is closed over, the variable's value is kept in the slot, and the variable's slot on the stack (or in a closure object) is filled with a reference to the value cell.
2014-08-31T16:56:58Z drmeister: The way I think this needs to be done is I need to compile the S-expressions into an abstract syntax tree with nodes that correspond to the special operators and function application.
2014-08-31T16:57:36Z drmeister: Then in a second pass I could look for FUNCTION nodes and search the subtree for variables that are bound in the tree above the FUNCTION.
2014-08-31T16:57:45Z nyef: You could probably do it in terms of rewriting S-expressions (such as Rabbit did with its CPS conversion), but yeah...
2014-08-31T16:57:48Z drmeister: Those variables need to be flagged for special attention.
2014-08-31T16:59:00Z drmeister: I don't want to rewrite s-expressions.  It's difficult to keep things straight.  I can DEFSTRUCT with my interpreter so I can use DEFSTRUCT in my compiler.
2014-08-31T16:59:16Z nyef: How many passes does your compiler take at this point?
2014-08-31T16:59:24Z drmeister: 1 (one).
2014-08-31T16:59:33Z drmeister: You see why I'm struggling.
2014-08-31T16:59:38Z nyef: So it's S-expression straight to LLVM?
2014-08-31T16:59:44Z drmeister: That's right.
2014-08-31T16:59:51Z drmeister: It's amazing it works at all.
2014-08-31T16:59:52Z nyef: Yeah, that's why you're struggling.
2014-08-31T17:00:20Z drmeister: It constrains my thinking so much.   I can't reason with program structure because I don't have access to it.
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2014-08-31T17:00:45Z ggole: Urk. Design a nice IR/AST and use that instead.
2014-08-31T17:01:23Z drmeister: But in a way this is where the fun starts.   I have all of the infrastructure in place to generate LLVM-IR, I know how to allocate stuff on the stack and on the heap.
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2014-08-31T17:02:38Z drmeister: I need add pass that takes S-expressions to an AST and then I can add additional passes.
2014-08-31T17:02:58Z drmeister: beach has a nice one thought out already - I was thinking of using that.
2014-08-31T17:03:02Z nyef: Yeah, S-expression to AST and AST to LLVM-IR.
2014-08-31T17:03:36Z drmeister: I've been anxious about doing that while I was wrestling with garbage collectors and other infrastructure.
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2014-08-31T17:03:57Z nyef: A fair point, but you're mostly done with that for now, aren't you?
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2014-08-31T17:05:07Z drmeister: Yeah, I think so.  MPS is working and compiling the full system.  The compiled code seems to work fine.
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2014-08-31T17:06:06Z drmeister: Can I repeat back to you what you told me about deciding what goes on the heap and what on the stack to see if I understand it?
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2014-08-31T17:06:18Z nyef: Sure.
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2014-08-31T17:06:57Z drmeister: Well, just to back up a bit.  What do you think (let ((x 1) (y 2)) ...) should look like in a CL AST?
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2014-08-31T17:08:57Z resttime: if iolib doesn't work i might be forced to use implementation specific sockets or bind a C socket library
2014-08-31T17:09:01Z resttime: guess i'll try to debug this
2014-08-31T17:09:55Z nyef: More or less isomorphic to (funcall (lambda (x y) ...) 1 2) and ((lambda (x y) ...) 1 2). Beyond that, having a representation for X and Y as variables that you can stick more stuff to such as a list of references, the enclosing function, and so on would be good.
2014-08-31T17:10:49Z drmeister: That gets to how you represent compile-time environments.
2014-08-31T17:11:04Z nyef: Yes, it does.
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2014-08-31T17:11:24Z drmeister: How would you represent (lambda (x y) ...)?
2014-08-31T17:11:49Z nyef: In function or argument position?
2014-08-31T17:12:38Z nyef: In function position, isomorphically to LET. In argument position, it macroexpands to (function (lambda (x y) ...)), which gets tied up in your handling for the FUNCTION operator.
2014-08-31T17:12:42Z drmeister: Wrt taking the S-expression (let ((x 1) (y 2))...) and turning it into the first abstract syntax tree.
2014-08-31T17:12:56Z ggole: You're asking how to design AST nodes?
2014-08-31T17:13:07Z ggole: Essentially you have one for each syntactic construct, decorated with all the info that you want
2014-08-31T17:13:40Z nyef: ggole: That's not actually the case.
2014-08-31T17:14:14Z nyef: You have one for each SEMANTIC construct, which doesn't necessarily map one-to-one to syntactic constructs.
2014-08-31T17:14:22Z drmeister: I'm looking at beach's cleavir document.  There are AST nodes for IF, BLOCK, GO etc there is none for LET or LET*.  There is one for FUNCTION  --> (defstruct function-ast body-ast lambda-list)
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2014-08-31T17:14:49Z mrottenkolber: Hi
2014-08-31T17:14:50Z drmeister: I'm paraphrasing.
2014-08-31T17:14:50Z nyef: Right, LET* trivially transforms to nested LET.
2014-08-31T17:15:00Z nyef: And LET itself trivially transforms to function application.
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2014-08-31T17:15:17Z xebd`: drmeister: seminar.s2s.msu.ru/files/20061205_Турдаков.ppt
2014-08-31T17:15:26Z xebd`: drmeister: I'm trying to find the English original...
2014-08-31T17:15:28Z drmeister: (let* ((x 1) (y 2)) ...) --> (let ((x 1)) (let ((y 2)) ...))   just to be really clear
2014-08-31T17:15:39Z mrottenkolber: is there a type specifier like (list string), e.g. a list of strings?
2014-08-31T17:15:47Z nyef: Yes, that's the LET* -> LET transform.
2014-08-31T17:15:55Z drmeister: xebd`: That URL is unreadable on my system.
2014-08-31T17:16:06Z drmeister: nyef: Ok, that I get.
2014-08-31T17:16:07Z xebd`: drmeister: But that presentation answers (or at least addresses) some of your questions.
2014-08-31T17:16:30Z drmeister: xebd`: Could you email it to me?  chris.schaf@verizon.net
2014-08-31T17:16:36Z xebd`: sure
2014-08-31T17:16:38Z nyef: mrottenkolber: Only for lists of known fixed length, IIRC.
2014-08-31T17:16:44Z xebd`: And I'll send the original, too, if I find it...
2014-08-31T17:17:33Z ggole: drmeister: cleavir isn't really an AST, it's more like a CL version of LLVM's ir
2014-08-31T17:17:45Z mrottenkolber: nyef: I could define a type on a predicate, but the resulting type
2014-08-31T17:17:45Z mrottenkolber: error on mismatch wouldn't idenify the offending element...
2014-08-31T17:17:47Z ggole: From what I understand of it
2014-08-31T17:18:17Z nyef: mrottenkolber: If you know how long the list is, you can build up the type specifier out of CONS types.
2014-08-31T17:18:21Z drmeister: ggole: That might explain part of my confusion.  I thought it was.   I should ask beach about it more.
2014-08-31T17:18:25Z mrottenkolber is experimenting on how far he can take defstruct/deftype
2014-08-31T17:18:39Z mrottenkolber: nyef: I don't :/
2014-08-31T17:19:18Z mrottenkolber: I can hack around it but that defeats the declarative nature of types...
2014-08-31T17:19:34Z drmeister: Are there any good examples of CL abstract syntax trees?
2014-08-31T17:19:34Z ggole: drmeister: well, I would start by looking at the analyses you are going to do and figure out what structures would make that easy
2014-08-31T17:20:00Z stacksmith: Hey guys.  Where would I find mcclim-truetype?
2014-08-31T17:20:08Z ggole: If you are going to be interested in telling whether a variable is referenced in a function other than the one it is bound in, for instance, you might want to annotate variables with lexical depth
2014-08-31T17:20:11Z xebd`: drmeister: Found. I'm sending you the English-language PDF, too.
2014-08-31T17:20:20Z wgl: drmeister: Is your target language CL?
2014-08-31T17:20:59Z drmeister: ggole: I've been trying to figure that out for years.   I don't know what optimizations I want to do.  I think I need to start by copying someone elses AST, write the code to transform S-expressions into it and then reason from there.  Working backwards has gotten me nowhere.
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2014-08-31T17:21:12Z drmeister: xebd`: Thank you.
2014-08-31T17:21:29Z ggole: drmeister: don't try to second guess yourself, just design for what you need today.
2014-08-31T17:21:38Z drmeister: I have seen examples for Scheme but I haven't been able to reason from them to Common Lisp.
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2014-08-31T17:21:44Z ggole: And keep things straightforward enough that you can change it if you need something else.
2014-08-31T17:21:48Z nyef: drmeister: You might want to look at LiSP, "The Python Compiler for CMU Common Lisp", and whatever you can find on how Clozure works.
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2014-08-31T17:22:13Z xebd`: drmeister: No problem. Sent. You should have it soon.
2014-08-31T17:22:15Z drmeister: I have LiSP - it's very Scheme oriented.
2014-08-31T17:22:16Z ggole: The space of possible IRs and optimizations is *far* too large to cover "just in case".
2014-08-31T17:22:20Z nyef: Whatever you pick to start with, you are almost guaranteed to be customizing it quite a bit as you come up with new analysis to do.
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2014-08-31T17:23:12Z drmeister: Everything I know comes from reading LiSP several times two years ago.  Maybe I need to read it again.  It's hard because the first chapters are boring and get too tied up in continuations (IMHO).
2014-08-31T17:23:12Z nyef: Yes, LiSP is Scheme oriented, but comparing what it says to what existing CL compilers claim to do should give you some ideas.
2014-08-31T17:23:41Z xebd`: drmeister: Someone else's AST... I'm not suggesting thath this helps directly, but you could look at Marijn Haverbeke's AST for Javascript.  It gives you another viewpoint on Lisp-based ASTs.
2014-08-31T17:23:46Z nyef: Heh. Reminds me of me with SICP. The interesting bits start in the middle of the book...
2014-08-31T17:23:54Z xebd`: drmeister: Have you read LoL?
2014-08-31T17:24:08Z drmeister: xebd`: The first half of it.
2014-08-31T17:24:10Z xebd`: drmeister: It's a wonderful mental work-out. :)
2014-08-31T17:24:28Z xebd`:  drmeister: don't try to second guess yourself, just design for what you need today.
2014-08-31T17:24:37Z xebd`: ^^^ And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why we love Lisp. :)
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2014-08-31T17:26:01Z drmeister: I've read the first half of several books on writing compilers.  They don't really speak to me.  I learned way more talking to people on #lisp and reasoning through stuff myself.
2014-08-31T17:26:04Z xebd`: wgl: drmeister is working to build a Lisp system that interfaces cleanly with C++, to alleviate the need for slow FFI.  He currently is transforming CL --> LLVM-IR.
2014-08-31T17:26:15Z xebd`: drmeister: +1
2014-08-31T17:26:40Z drmeister: wgl: Sorry - I missed that - what xebd` said.
2014-08-31T17:26:49Z xebd`: drmeister: Any papers I've seen on SSA seem as if they were written by people expecting imperative-style code. ;)
2014-08-31T17:26:49Z nyef: My experience with books about writing compilers is that the SECOND half is the more interesting, and that dipping into them at random can be a useful exercise.
2014-08-31T17:27:04Z drmeister: LLVM-IR is SSA.
2014-08-31T17:27:36Z wgl: drmeister: xebd`: Cool, thanks. Sounds like fun. I have been meaning to dive into LLVM. as a former compiler writer.
2014-08-31T17:27:41Z ggole: SSA works fine with higher-order languages
2014-08-31T17:27:49Z ggole: See MLton for a fairly nice example
2014-08-31T17:27:52Z xebd`: wgl: cool :)
2014-08-31T17:28:19Z drmeister: nyef: Going back to the analysis.
2014-08-31T17:29:02Z fortitude quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2014-08-31T17:29:52Z wgl: xebd`: Mind you that was several lifetimes ago. It before SSA was invented.
2014-08-31T17:30:18Z ggole: Thirty years ago?
2014-08-31T17:30:22Z xebd`: wgl: When registers were so scarce that everything had to go to stack/heap, anyhow? ;)
2014-08-31T17:31:09Z wgl: xebd`: Well, yes. This was on the 8085, if you can imagine that. A systems programming language. Reasonably simple.
2014-08-31T17:31:20Z xebd`: (I guess that, even with scarce registers, SSA would be beneficial when performing live-range analysis for RAM-based storage...)
2014-08-31T17:32:00Z xebd`: wgl: I didn't start toying with compilers until the x86 world, although I picked up asm on the 6510 (Commodore64). Good times.
2014-08-31T17:32:19Z wgl: Oh, I am pretty sure that SSA would have simplified our task quite a bit.
2014-08-31T17:32:33Z drmeister: nyef: Getting back to repeating back what you told me:   https://gist.github.com/drmeister/691d6cb9ee77e33b968d
2014-08-31T17:32:42Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2014-08-31T17:32:54Z drmeister: This was evaluated in Clasp.
2014-08-31T17:33:43Z drmeister: Now function-a binds a and function-b refers to it.
2014-08-31T17:33:59Z drmeister: The set of functions that bind and refer to a are different so a needs to be on the heap.
2014-08-31T17:34:16Z drmeister: Sorry.
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2014-08-31T17:34:35Z drmeister: The set of functions that bind "x" and refer to "x" are different so "x" needs to be on the heap. Sheesh.
2014-08-31T17:35:49Z ggole: An easier way to calculate that is to keep track of the function depth as you walk over the ast, and mark the variable as escaping if it is ever referenced at a greater depth.
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2014-08-31T17:38:45Z xebd`: ggole: Or do the inverse.  DFS traversal, accumulate references "from below", delete reference when the variable is set.  When one arrives at the "top" (however that is defined), the resulting list is that of the lexical closures.
2014-08-31T17:39:09Z xebd`: This talk of compilers reminds me... I downloaded, but have not played with, Stalin.
2014-08-31T17:39:32Z xebd`: http://community.schemewiki.org/?p=Stalin
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2014-08-31T17:40:11Z xebd`: Probably some good CFA- and DFA-fu in there.
2014-08-31T17:40:31Z ggole: I've read Siskind's paper on it: pretty heavy going.
2014-08-31T17:40:39Z drmeister: ggole: mark the variable as escaping if it is ever referenced within an FUNCTION at a greater depth - is that what you mean?
2014-08-31T17:41:51Z nyef: Okay, I'm back.
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2014-08-31T17:41:59Z ggole: I didn't mean #', no
2014-08-31T17:42:12Z nyef: drmeister: Yes, that example looks good once you substitute x for a in the explanation.
2014-08-31T17:42:47Z ggole: By "referenced" I just mean "used".
2014-08-31T17:43:05Z drmeister: ggole: Oh - I see you said "track function depth"
2014-08-31T17:43:20Z ggole: Right.
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2014-08-31T17:44:52Z drmeister: Ok, so say I had the following:
2014-08-31T17:45:30Z Adlai: digression: http://bjorn.tipling.com/if-programming-languages-were-weapons
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2014-08-31T17:47:46Z drmeister: If I was given:   (let ((x 1) (y 2)) (function (lambda (a) (+ x a))))
2014-08-31T17:48:15Z drmeister: Only x needs to be bound on the heap.
2014-08-31T17:49:04Z nyef: And Y should trigger a STYLE-WARNING or WARNING about an unused variable, yes.
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2014-08-31T17:49:47Z drmeister: I could transform this into (let #|heap|# ((x 1)) (let #|stack|# ((y 2)) (function (lambda (a) (+ x a))))
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2014-08-31T17:50:17Z wasamasa: Adlai: nope
2014-08-31T17:50:56Z Adlai: crazy and dangerous sounds exciting
2014-08-31T17:51:08Z ggole: Better to have a proper ast node with a named field indicating the information you want
2014-08-31T17:51:11Z drmeister: (let ((x 1) (y 2)) (values (function (lambda (a) (+ x a))) (* y 2)  )))
2014-08-31T17:51:27Z nyef: Yeah.
2014-08-31T17:51:35Z nyef: So X needs to be heap and Y needs to be stack.
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2014-08-31T17:52:18Z drmeister: (let #|heap|# ((x 1)) (let #|stack|# ((y 2)) (values (function (lambda (a) (+ x a))) (* y 2) ))))
2014-08-31T17:52:21Z resttime: appears that iolib really was incomplete in regards to #'make-socket-pair
2014-08-31T17:52:59Z drmeister: I could create an AST that at the start has a node type for every special operator and function application.
2014-08-31T17:53:17Z xebd`: Adlai: lol (re "digression")
2014-08-31T17:54:01Z nyef: You already know that you don't need a separate node type for LET* as distinct from LET, and possibly not as distinct from function application.
2014-08-31T17:55:23Z nyef: But yeah, assuming a single node type for each special operator and for function-calling is a good start.
2014-08-31T17:55:30Z xebd`: I believe that Kent Dyvbig had a good paper on isomorphic transformation of various special forms -- more exotic than representing LET* as nested LET.
2014-08-31T17:55:30Z drmeister: nyef: But it would be the end of the world if I did have a LET* would it?   Just to be pedantic lets say I was taking this really slowly where I had a LET* node.  Then S-expressions map straight to the stage0 CL-AST.  The first transformation would be LET* -> nested LETs.
2014-08-31T17:55:49Z nyef: That's fine too.
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2014-08-31T17:56:23Z eudoxia: C++ should be the F-35 "Flying Segfault"
2014-08-31T17:56:36Z beach: drmeister: Cleavir does have an AST representation.  In addition it has a graph-structure intermediate representation called MIR.
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2014-08-31T17:56:59Z xebd`: Or was it Baker?
2014-08-31T17:57:08Z nyef: As you gain experience with it, and as you start writing the translators into and out of the IR and performing various analysis on it, you will find that you need more node types or that some node types could be merged.
2014-08-31T17:57:10Z nyef: xebd`: Baker.
2014-08-31T17:57:13Z drmeister: beach: Hello! I was looking at Cleavir I didn't see AST nodes for LET and I was confused.
2014-08-31T17:57:22Z beach: drmeister: LET does not need an AST node.
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2014-08-31T17:57:41Z nyef waits for the explanation.
2014-08-31T17:58:06Z beach: The AST representation makes variables unique, so their scope is implicit.
2014-08-31T17:58:06Z drmeister: We talked about this before - clearly I didn't understand it.    If I'm crawling through S-expressions and I hit LET.  What do I do with it with cleavir?
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2014-08-31T17:58:33Z beach: drmeister: Make sure the variables introduced are unique, then just SETQ them.
2014-08-31T17:58:38Z xebd`: nyef: Thanks (re confirming Baker)
2014-08-31T17:59:02Z ggole: LLVM doesn't have LET nodes or variables, either: it just has values, which you refer to.
2014-08-31T17:59:44Z drmeister: ggole: I know that very well.  You have registers and alloca.
2014-08-31T17:59:45Z ggole: It's a fairly common approach.
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2014-08-31T17:59:51Z beach: Yes, LET is only needed because of scoping rules.
2014-08-31T17:59:56Z ggole: Values are not registers.
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2014-08-31T18:00:14Z resttime: does it matter if a unix local socket is active or passive?
2014-08-31T18:00:32Z beach: stacksmith: I answered your PM.
2014-08-31T18:01:07Z xebd`: drmeister: http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html # this is the paper of which I was thinking, whose author nyef so kindly confirmed for me
2014-08-31T18:02:16Z drmeister: beach: I don't understand "just SETQ them" I'm trying to understand that in terms of allocating memory for them on the heap or the stack (LET) vs I've got a reference to the memory and now I set it to the pointer for the object I just evaluated (SETQ).
2014-08-31T18:02:18Z xebd`: drmeister: This is particularly poignant considering what you were saying about using exceptions for block + return-from.
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2014-08-31T18:02:34Z drmeister: xebd`: Why?
2014-08-31T18:03:29Z beach: drmeister: In order to know where to allocate variables, you can't determine that from the AST.  It requires translation to MIR and then a fairly sophisticated escape analysis, then register allocation, etc, etc.
2014-08-31T18:03:36Z xebd`: drmeister: I'm of the mind (feel free to flame me!) that a small, less-complex AST setup is less error-prone.  If you can reduce the number of special cases, that is a Good Thing (TM).
2014-08-31T18:04:24Z drmeister: I have solved the problem of unwinding everything properly within the intervening interpreted CL(C++), C++ and compiled CL code.  Clasp wouldn't work at all if I didn't do that.
2014-08-31T18:04:28Z xebd`: drmeister: What beach said.  If you _know_ that the extent is limited to the lexical scope, that's "typical" (as in what you generally see in most languages).  That is easy.
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2014-08-31T18:04:52Z ggole: beach: this is in the context of closures, not register allocation.
2014-08-31T18:05:15Z beach: ggole: Still, I do that analysis on the MIR representation.
2014-08-31T18:05:16Z xebd`: drmeister: However, if your data will outlive the lexical scope... then what?  Heap?  Pre-allocated space on the stack of a calling function (that knows where the extent ends)?
2014-08-31T18:05:18Z ggole: It's a fairly simple matter to (conservatively) tell when a variable needs closing over.
2014-08-31T18:06:07Z ggole: beach: of course, that's less conservative and makes sense if you have a strong IR and optimizations on it.
2014-08-31T18:06:07Z xebd`: Yes, but (/= knowing-when-to-close whether-to-alloc-on-stack-or-heap)
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2014-08-31T18:06:29Z drmeister: ggole: I've been trying to understand that simple matter for a long time.
2014-08-31T18:06:40Z xebd`: Although that, I suspect, is why ggole said "conservatively": Taking the easy way out, using heap when in doubt. ;)
2014-08-31T18:06:49Z ggole: It's really not that complicated.
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2014-08-31T18:07:04Z ggole: Until you want to be very aggressive, anyway.
2014-08-31T18:07:25Z xebd`: drmeister: Repeat to yourself: Extent and scope are different in Lisp. Extent and scope are different in Lisp. Extent and scope are different in Lisp. :)
2014-08-31T18:07:45Z drmeister: beach: I see, you have a much more sophisticated understanding of it.  I'm still struggling.
2014-08-31T18:08:14Z xebd`: "extent outliving scope" ~ "returning a pointer" (oversimplified but in the same neighorhood)
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2014-08-31T18:08:41Z xebd`: drmeister: "extent" = how long the data must remain alive
2014-08-31T18:08:57Z ggole: drmeister: if you are having trouble, you should probably do the simplest thing that will work
2014-08-31T18:08:59Z xebd`: drmeister: "scope" = how long your symbol / variable / whatever remains valid
2014-08-31T18:09:06Z beach: drmeister: I know the fundamentals of compiler design, yes.  I am not up to speed about the latest optimizations, but I can read up on that.
2014-08-31T18:09:07Z ggole: You can always revist things when your understanding develops.
2014-08-31T18:09:16Z xebd`: ggole: I think he has been -- turning to the heap when in doubt.
2014-08-31T18:09:29Z drmeister: ggole: I think I understand what nyef explained to me.  That appears to be pretty simple.  Currently I put everything on the heap and it's slow.
2014-08-31T18:09:31Z nyef: xebd`: No, "scope" = visibility.
2014-08-31T18:09:33Z xebd`: ggole: Performance is sub-optimal, so he wants to know when it's safe to use the stack.
2014-08-31T18:09:58Z ggole: Sure, but a simple conservative source-based analysis is not difficult.
2014-08-31T18:10:07Z xebd`: nyef: fuuuh. $#!+ Thanks. Can't believe I typed what I did.
2014-08-31T18:10:37Z xebd`: s/valid/visible/   I typed the wrong "v" word.
2014-08-31T18:10:46Z nyef: And I'm using the simplest version of the analysis because that should be a decent immediate win, and the more involved the analysis gets the harder to explain and trickier to get right it gets.
2014-08-31T18:10:54Z drmeister: ggole: Especially because LLVM is for C/C++.  It doesn't do any of this for me.  For those languages it is easy.  Everything is on the stack and if you pass out a pointer to stuff on the stack - well you only have yourself to blame.
2014-08-31T18:11:11Z ggole: Indeed.
2014-08-31T18:11:40Z xebd`: drmeister: Hence why I used the analogy "extent outliving scope" ~ "returning a pointer"
2014-08-31T18:12:16Z drmeister: xebd`: I understand now.
2014-08-31T18:12:49Z xebd`: :)
2014-08-31T18:13:19Z xebd`: (lambda () (list 1 2 3)) ; extent of the list exceeds the scope of lambda
2014-08-31T18:13:36Z resttime: http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/zvm/v6r1/topic/com.ibm.zvm.v610.edclv/socket.htm "...Datagram sockets have no active or passive analogy to..."
2014-08-31T18:14:04Z resttime: alright so quick  in iolib workaround is just to add the darn slots
2014-08-31T18:14:17Z xebd`: (lambda () (let ((foo (list 1 2 3))) #| foo is both visible (in scope) and alive (extent) |#) #| now foo is neither |# )
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2014-08-31T18:22:27Z drmeister: I think if I do the following:  Add a pass to my compiler to convert Sexps to an AST with one kind of node for each special operator.  Add some simple passes to look for the simple criteria that nyef explained for identifying escaping variables. Rearrange the AST so that I transform LET* into nested LETs and separate out the variables in each LET into LET-STACK and LET-HEAP AST nodes. 3)  Code generate from that.
2014-08-31T18:22:46Z drmeister: That might get me a significant improvement in speed.
2014-08-31T18:23:18Z kristof: Isn't that a closure for every let?
2014-08-31T18:23:44Z drmeister: Some of you are probably rolling your eyes at this simple-minded approach.
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2014-08-31T18:23:53Z resttime: https://github.com/sionescu/iolib/issues/15
2014-08-31T18:24:15Z drmeister: Scratch that last message - I'm learning.
2014-08-31T18:25:48Z drmeister: kristof:  What is a closure?   An environment and a function that runs within it.   Only FUNCTION creates those.
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2014-08-31T18:26:46Z kristof: Right, never mind.
2014-08-31T18:27:06Z drmeister: That's ok, if I can respond then I'm learning.
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2014-08-31T18:29:45Z drmeister: I think I need to step away for a bit.  Thank all you for your help.
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2014-08-31T18:32:57Z wasamasa: drmeister: simple-minded approaches are good
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2014-08-31T18:33:01Z wasamasa: drmeister: less can go wrong :P
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2014-08-31T18:46:02Z drmeister: wasamasa: What I'm looking for is the next step.  I have S-expressions.  I have access to the C++ LLVM-IR API in CL.   What do I transform Sexps into that I can then further transform into something that I will generate LLVM-IR.   It's like have the open parenthesis (S-expressions) and the close parenthesis (LLVM-IR) but I'm struggling to figure out what to put in between that will serve me well to the end.
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2014-08-31T18:47:09Z drmeister: I'm being vague.  I think I have a better idea and a few things to read now.  Thanks.
2014-08-31T18:47:12Z xebd`: drmeister: You might check Kent Dyvbig's paper on expansion-passing style.
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2014-08-31T18:47:48Z xebd`: drmeister: I'm not saying to use that exact approach... but you may find it a helpful reference.
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2014-08-31T18:49:02Z xebd`: s/dyvbig/dybvig/
2014-08-31T18:49:37Z xebd`: drmeister: https://cs.au.dk/~hosc/local/LaSC-1-1-pp53-75.pdf
2014-08-31T18:49:45Z xebd`: drmeister: and also http://www.cs.indiana.edu/ftp/techreports/TR195.pdf
2014-08-31T18:51:10Z xebd`: drmeister: Scheme syntax, but I'm not complaining. ;)
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2014-08-31T20:33:58Z logand: AeroNotix: actually, thinking about the relation between reader -> writer, it there needs to be somewhere in between a driver, which reads stuff from reader and passes that to the writer;  this is annoying because it means that such driver loop needs its own thread of execution;  but it is great in another way, because you can position the driver more in the reader or writer direction;  which means, you can write only readers, for
2014-08-31T20:33:59Z logand: example and use trivial writer like byte writer;  if you can write your algorithm as a writer (stream/generator which gives next value when funcalled)
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2014-08-31T20:38:33Z logand: ah if you can write your algorithm as a READER (not writer)
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2014-08-31T20:42:12Z AeroNotix: logand: at the moment I'm just focusing on the part of the protocol that uses aligned types
2014-08-31T20:42:17Z AeroNotix: 8-bit aligned types**
2014-08-31T20:42:28Z AeroNotix: eventually I'll wrap a stream and buffer writes internally
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2014-08-31T20:46:15Z AeroNotix: logand: I'm surprised this hasn't been done before
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2014-08-31T21:01:07Z drmeister: I realized I was conflating what I have to do in my CL interpreter that I use for bootstrapping and what I need to do in the compiler.  When I interpret (let ((x 1)) (function (lambda (a) (+ x a))) in C++ I have to do that in a very different way from what the compiler generated code can do.  I've been generating compiled code that behaves like the interpreter and works with the activation frames that the interpre
2014-08-31T21:01:07Z drmeister: ter uses to store lexical values.
2014-08-31T21:02:28Z nyef: Yeah, your interpreter and your compiler are allowed to use completely different strategies to implement the same semantics.
2014-08-31T21:04:05Z drmeister: In the interpreter LET allocates a frame on the heap and fills it with values and sets its parent to the enclosing frame.  FUNCTION grabs the current frame and associates it with the source code within it in a C++ struct called InterpretedClosure.
2014-08-31T21:06:25Z drmeister: Reading some of the stuff you folks sent me has been helpful.  It looks like I could do a lot with source transformations that walk and rewrite parts of the sexp tree.
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2014-08-31T21:07:51Z drmeister: At some point I would have to annotate the S-expression tree with environment information wouldn't I?
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2014-08-31T21:09:25Z Bike: it's not like you need to keep a sexp around at all
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2014-08-31T21:12:09Z drmeister: Must do more reading... things are starting to make more sense.  The interpreter/compiler thing was really confusing me.
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2014-08-31T21:45:24Z malice: Hello, question. #'STABLE-SORT destructively sorts sequence, so when I run it over a sequence, it's changed into sorted version?
2014-08-31T21:46:20Z mood: malice: It doesn't sort in-place no. Its return value is the sorted version
2014-08-31T21:46:59Z mood: Its destructiveness comes from the fact that it may "recycle" conses of the original sequence
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2014-08-31T21:48:42Z malice: Because function like nconc works pretty much like destructive append, right?
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2014-08-31T21:50:31Z Bike: nconc is defined to destroy lists in a certain way, stable-sort isn't, it's just allowed to be destructive
2014-08-31T21:50:45Z malice: Ah.
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2014-08-31T21:51:01Z Bike: so you can't rely on it changing anything in a particular way, see
2014-08-31T21:51:04Z malice: So theoretically, after running stable-sort, value contains trash?
2014-08-31T21:51:21Z Bike: could be anything, yes. that's why you're supposed to use the return value instead.
2014-08-31T21:51:30Z malice: Okay. Thanks!
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2014-08-31T21:57:33Z |3b|: malice: and don't pass literals (like quoted lists) to sort or stable-sort
2014-08-31T21:58:34Z malice: |3b|,  Why?
2014-08-31T21:58:43Z Shinmera: Because the data may be inlined
2014-08-31T21:58:53Z |3b|: because you aren't allowed to modify literals
2014-08-31T21:59:37Z |3b|: as an extreme example, they could be the actual code shown in a lisp-based editor
2014-08-31T22:00:07Z |3b|: more likely to be a problem is that they might be merged with similar lists in compiled code, or reused on other calls to the function containing them
2014-08-31T22:00:11Z Bike: you can get some really confusing bugs that way, lemme tell ya
2014-08-31T22:00:22Z |3b|: yeah, that is the practical result :)
2014-08-31T22:01:15Z Bike: "oh, this function gives the wrong result. wait no it doesn't. wait yes it does"
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2014-08-31T22:04:48Z malice: Too bad
2014-08-31T22:05:07Z malice: Reminds me of my C++ bug
2014-08-31T22:05:15Z malice: worked the same way :P
2014-08-31T22:07:10Z malice: Anyway, thanks!
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2014-08-31T22:14:40Z malice: |3b|, lexical variables aren't literals, right?
2014-08-31T22:14:58Z |3b|: lexical variables can contain literals
2014-08-31T22:15:15Z |3b|: (let ((a '(1 2 3))) ...) the value stored in A is a literal and should not be modified
2014-08-31T22:15:50Z malice: is (copy-seq '(1 2 3)) a literal too?
2014-08-31T22:15:59Z |3b|: the copy is not a literal
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2014-08-31T22:16:44Z malice: So theoretically, this sorting function is safe?
2014-08-31T22:16:45Z malice: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143578
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2014-08-31T22:18:26Z malice: And what are literals? Because it looks like I don't really know
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2014-08-31T22:18:31Z |3b|: 'literal
2014-08-31T22:18:38Z |3b|: ' as in literally there in the source
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2014-08-31T22:18:47Z Shinmera: literally in the source :)
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2014-08-31T22:19:08Z |3b|: CL is defined in terms of objects like lists and symbols, rather than sequences of characters like some languages
2014-08-31T22:19:55Z |3b|: first it calls READ to turn characters into objects, so a sequence of characters like "'(1 2 3)" in the source will be turned into an actual list (QUOTE (1 2 3))
2014-08-31T22:20:09Z malice: right
2014-08-31T22:20:10Z |3b|: that list is what is interpreted or compiled
2014-08-31T22:20:38Z |3b|: so any object that is actually in the input to EVAL or COMPILE is a 'literal' and shouldn't be modified
2014-08-31T22:21:08Z malice: So, that function I showed you is safe, yes?
2014-08-31T22:21:16Z |3b|: it looked OK to me
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2014-08-31T22:22:01Z malice: Okay, good to know.
2014-08-31T22:22:07Z malice: Thanks for clarification :)
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2014-08-31T22:23:09Z malice: I'm just reading PCL and Peter didn't say anything about it there. Or my eyes are not so good anymore.
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2014-08-31T22:24:43Z antoszka: malice: It's not something specific to Common Lisp (nor any Lisp really), it's a general term applicable to most mainstream programming languages.
2014-08-31T22:25:08Z antoszka: Where 12345 is an integer literal (as seen in the source) or "foobar" is a string literal.
2014-08-31T22:26:16Z antoszka: It's just that you have your object written out 'literally' in the source code rather than constructing it by, say, doing MAKE-ARRAY.
2014-08-31T22:26:53Z malice: Yeah, I guess I've met this term before, but it isn't used so often
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