2014-06-01T00:10:05Z ccl-logbot joined #lisp 2014-06-01T00:10:05Z 2014-06-01T00:10:05Z names: ccl-logbot JuanDaugherty MrWoohoo jxv jonh benkay keen______ segmond monod BitPuffin clintm drmeister phax __class__ aretecode MjrTom foreignFunction DGASAU zwer boogie sweetpotato gigetoo mr-foobar ThePhoeron the8thbit araujo oleo TDog joneshf-laptop_ MoALTz Denommus brucem vert2 Patzy Tordek nydel Beetny findiggle tali713 Bike ThomasH FVG nug700 ktx Rptx Tenkujin ASau Bicyclidine dandersen kcj varjag_ doomlord_1 mhd KCL slyrus vlnx interlocutor Adlai 2014-06-01T00:10:05Z names: solidus_ mbrock bgs100 stassats bocaneri jchochli dubosec Mon_Ouie _JokerDoom Eyess jchochl__ harish clop TristamWrk yacks drdo anunnaki_ jsnell rvchangue Praise ianmcorvidae nand1 vaporatorius abeaumont` theos gniourf seangrove impulse cpt_nemo Kruppe kirin` dmiles_afk Lebbe GuilOooo gingerale lemonodor whartung deego killmaster patrickwonders ahungry p_l ivan4th snikkers McMAGIC--Copy MouldyOldBones wgreenhouse ivan\ jayne heddwch wheelsucker Sgeo cmack 2014-06-01T00:10:05Z names: karswell Vivitron effy froggey hellome sigjuice_ ZombieChicken Colleen AdmiralBumbleBee sixbitslacker knob tensorpudding |3b| Krystof Adeon gabot nimiux __main__ CrazyEddy PuercoPop AntiSpamMeta bobbysmith007 mksan Tristam jaimef aeth reb loke_ cibs GGMethos zz_karupa AeroNotix sfa c74d pjb ozzloy phadthai diginet e2xistz joneshf yano dan64 REPLeffect White_Flame jackdaniel cyphase vpm nop0x07bc funnel ered Mathieu brandonz noncom emma kanru fikusz nicdev 2014-06-01T00:10:05Z names: Neptu ChibaPet Subfusc eigenlicht krrrcks eMBee scharan Wackadoodle cmatei sword Jubb JPeterson joga jdz marsbot SHODAN freiksenet dRbiG daimrod axion Khisanth Kabaka _8hzp` clog rtoym dfox bege samebchase acieroid notori0us zymurgy Xach ``Erik InvalidCo misv nialo` felideon joast les mtd matko tessier H4ns kral mal_ honkfest1val abbe superjudge_ vhost- rk[1] blakbunnie27 nightshade427 drewc ferada ramus sellout antoszka Zhivago ft loke oconnore asedeno 2014-06-01T00:10:05Z names: j0ni justinmcp_ Wukix aerique hypno__ minion mikaelj nightfly Intensity quasisane yeltzooo LostDatagram gz sytse benny eagleflo fnordbert johs htmzr WeirdEnthusiast aksatac_ fe[nl]ix Zag gluegadget easye` Blkt spacebat madnificent cmbntr_ fmu cross splittist jtz dlowe sbryant ggherdov Natch naryl njsg xristos Amaan lemoinem j_king schoppenhauer Odin- djinni` mathrick ck_ joshe nisstyre teiresias BlastHardcheese ec zxq9 housel endou_ dim foom ircbrowse 2014-06-01T00:10:05Z names: sshirokov shwouchk _5kg faheem_ stopbit gko tbarletz luis copec hyoyoung_home tvaalen oGMo saarin derrida _d3f Oddity tomaw specbot guaqua eee-blt setheus Corey wchun [SLB] kbtr_ palter victor_lowther mathrick_ SAUERKRAUSE gensym rootzlevel otwieracz flip214 Borbus leoc ski dsp_ pchrist lupine sgray10 peccu3 K1rk p_l|backup sklr wormphle1m Anarch codeburg tkd eak nitro_idiot Ober mood Posterdati smull felipe musicalchair milosn zbigniew rotty_ pok enn 2014-06-01T00:10:05Z names: _death finnrobi sjl TheMoonMaster Fade redline6561 ineiros yauz aoh galdor yroeht kyl ecraven cods theBlackDragon Mandus alchemis7 stokachu d4gg4d jasom _tca rvirding MightyJoe junkris_ z0d s_e Nshag The_third_man 2014-06-01T00:15:26Z ccl-logbot joined #lisp 2014-06-01T00:15:26Z 2014-06-01T00:15:26Z names: ccl-logbot camelCaseIsUgly frkout JuanDaugherty MrWoohoo jxv jonh benkay keen______ segmond monod BitPuffin clintm drmeister phax __class__ aretecode MjrTom foreignFunction DGASAU zwer boogie sweetpotato gigetoo mr-foobar ThePhoeron the8thbit araujo oleo TDog joneshf-laptop_ MoALTz Denommus brucem vert2 Patzy Tordek nydel Beetny findiggle tali713 Bike ThomasH FVG nug700 ktx Rptx Tenkujin ASau Bicyclidine dandersen kcj varjag_ doomlord_1 mhd KCL slyrus vlnx 2014-06-01T00:15:26Z names: interlocutor Adlai solidus_ mbrock bgs100 stassats bocaneri jchochli dubosec Mon_Ouie _JokerDoom Eyess jchochl__ harish clop TristamWrk yacks drdo anunnaki_ jsnell rvchangue Praise ianmcorvidae nand1 vaporatorius abeaumont` theos gniourf seangrove impulse cpt_nemo Kruppe kirin` dmiles_afk Lebbe GuilOooo gingerale lemonodor whartung deego killmaster patrickwonders ahungry p_l ivan4th snikkers McMAGIC--Copy MouldyOldBones wgreenhouse ivan\ jayne heddwch 2014-06-01T00:15:26Z names: wheelsucker Sgeo cmack karswell Vivitron effy froggey hellome sigjuice_ ZombieChicken Colleen AdmiralBumbleBee sixbitslacker knob tensorpudding |3b| Krystof Adeon gabot nimiux __main__ CrazyEddy PuercoPop AntiSpamMeta bobbysmith007 mksan Tristam jaimef aeth reb loke_ cibs GGMethos zz_karupa AeroNotix sfa c74d pjb ozzloy phadthai diginet e2xistz joneshf yano dan64 REPLeffect White_Flame jackdaniel cyphase vpm nop0x07bc funnel ered Mathieu brandonz noncom 2014-06-01T00:15:26Z names: emma kanru fikusz nicdev Neptu ChibaPet Subfusc eigenlicht krrrcks eMBee scharan Wackadoodle cmatei sword Jubb JPeterson joga jdz marsbot SHODAN freiksenet dRbiG daimrod axion Khisanth Kabaka _8hzp` clog rtoym kbtr_ palter victor_lowther mathrick_ SAUERKRAUSE gensym rootzlevel otwieracz flip214 Borbus leoc ski dsp_ pchrist lupine sgray10 peccu3 K1rk p_l|backup sklr wormphle1m Anarch codeburg tkd eak nitro_idiot Ober mood Posterdati smull felipe 2014-06-01T00:15:26Z names: musicalchair milosn zbigniew rotty_ pok enn _death finnrobi sjl TheMoonMaster Fade redline6561 ineiros yauz aoh galdor yroeht kyl ecraven cods theBlackDragon Mandus alchemis7 stokachu d4gg4d jasom _tca rvirding MightyJoe junkris_ z0d s_e Nshag The_third_man [SLB] wchun Corey setheus eee-blt guaqua specbot tomaw Oddity _d3f derrida saarin oGMo tvaalen hyoyoung_home copec luis tbarletz gko stopbit faheem_ _5kg shwouchk sshirokov ircbrowse foom dim endou_ 2014-06-01T00:15:26Z names: housel zxq9 ec BlastHardcheese teiresias nisstyre joshe ck_ mathrick djinni` Odin- schoppenhauer j_king lemoinem Amaan xristos njsg naryl Natch ggherdov sbryant dlowe jtz splittist cross fmu cmbntr_ madnificent spacebat Blkt easye` gluegadget Zag fe[nl]ix aksatac_ WeirdEnthusiast htmzr johs fnordbert eagleflo benny sytse gz LostDatagram yeltzooo quasisane Intensity nightfly mikaelj minion hypno__ aerique Wukix justinmcp_ j0ni asedeno oconnore loke ft 2014-06-01T00:15:26Z names: Zhivago antoszka sellout ramus ferada drewc nightshade427 blakbunnie27 rk[1] vhost- superjudge_ abbe honkfest1val mal_ kral H4ns tessier matko mtd les joast felideon nialo` misv InvalidCo ``Erik Xach zymurgy notori0us acieroid samebchase bege dfox 2014-06-01T00:20:47Z ccl-logbot joined #lisp 2014-06-01T00:20:47Z 2014-06-01T00:20:47Z names: ccl-logbot frkout JuanDaugherty MrWoohoo jxv jonh benkay keen______ segmond monod BitPuffin clintm drmeister phax __class__ aretecode MjrTom foreignFunction DGASAU zwer boogie sweetpotato gigetoo mr-foobar ThePhoeron the8thbit araujo oleo TDog joneshf-laptop_ MoALTz Denommus brucem vert2 Patzy Tordek nydel Beetny findiggle tali713 Bike ThomasH FVG nug700 ktx Rptx Tenkujin ASau Bicyclidine kcj varjag_ doomlord_1 mhd KCL slyrus vlnx interlocutor Adlai 2014-06-01T00:20:47Z names: solidus_ mbrock bgs100 stassats bocaneri jchochli dubosec Mon_Ouie _JokerDoom Eyess jchochl__ harish clop TristamWrk yacks drdo anunnaki_ jsnell rvchangue Praise ianmcorvidae nand1 vaporatorius abeaumont` theos gniourf seangrove impulse cpt_nemo Kruppe kirin` dmiles_afk Lebbe GuilOooo gingerale lemonodor whartung deego killmaster patrickwonders ahungry p_l ivan4th snikkers McMAGIC--Copy MouldyOldBones wgreenhouse ivan\ jayne heddwch wheelsucker Sgeo cmack 2014-06-01T00:20:47Z names: karswell Vivitron effy froggey hellome sigjuice_ ZombieChicken Colleen AdmiralBumbleBee sixbitslacker knob tensorpudding |3b| Krystof Adeon gabot nimiux __main__ CrazyEddy PuercoPop AntiSpamMeta bobbysmith007 mksan Tristam jaimef aeth reb loke_ cibs GGMethos zz_karupa AeroNotix sfa c74d pjb ozzloy phadthai diginet e2xistz joneshf yano dan64 REPLeffect White_Flame jackdaniel cyphase vpm nop0x07bc funnel ered Mathieu brandonz noncom emma kanru fikusz nicdev 2014-06-01T00:20:47Z names: Neptu ChibaPet Subfusc eigenlicht krrrcks eMBee scharan Wackadoodle cmatei sword Jubb JPeterson joga jdz marsbot SHODAN freiksenet dRbiG daimrod axion Khisanth Kabaka _8hzp` clog rtoym dfox bege samebchase acieroid notori0us zymurgy Xach ``Erik InvalidCo misv nialo` felideon joast les mtd matko tessier H4ns kral mal_ honkfest1val abbe superjudge_ vhost- rk[1] blakbunnie27 nightshade427 drewc ferada ramus sellout antoszka Zhivago ft loke oconnore asedeno 2014-06-01T00:20:47Z names: j0ni justinmcp_ Wukix aerique hypno__ minion mikaelj nightfly Intensity quasisane yeltzooo LostDatagram gz sytse benny eagleflo fnordbert johs htmzr WeirdEnthusiast aksatac_ fe[nl]ix Zag gluegadget easye` Blkt spacebat madnificent cmbntr_ fmu cross splittist jtz dlowe sbryant ggherdov Natch naryl njsg xristos Amaan lemoinem j_king schoppenhauer Odin- djinni` mathrick ck_ joshe nisstyre teiresias BlastHardcheese ec zxq9 kbtr_ palter victor_lowther mathrick_ 2014-06-01T00:20:47Z names: SAUERKRAUSE gensym rootzlevel otwieracz flip214 Borbus leoc ski dsp_ pchrist lupine sgray10 peccu3 K1rk p_l|backup sklr wormphle1m Anarch codeburg tkd eak nitro_idiot Ober mood Posterdati smull felipe musicalchair milosn zbigniew rotty_ pok enn _death finnrobi sjl TheMoonMaster Fade redline6561 ineiros yauz aoh galdor yroeht kyl ecraven cods theBlackDragon Mandus alchemis7 stokachu d4gg4d jasom _tca rvirding MightyJoe junkris_ z0d s_e Nshag The_third_man 2014-06-01T00:20:47Z names: [SLB] wchun Corey setheus eee-blt guaqua specbot tomaw Oddity _d3f derrida housel endou_ dim foom ircbrowse sshirokov shwouchk _5kg faheem_ stopbit gko tbarletz luis copec hyoyoung_home tvaalen oGMo saarin 2014-06-01T00:21:00Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-06-01T00:24:23Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-01T00:28:12Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-01T00:29:45Z qiemem joined #lisp 2014-06-01T00:37:21Z JuniorRoy joined #lisp 2014-06-01T00:41:10Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-01T00:43:40Z 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2014-06-01T01:32:00Z monod: I've just read about Movitz 2014-06-01T01:32:11Z monod: Should be interesting 2014-06-01T01:32:26Z stassats: "could" be 2014-06-01T01:33:18Z monod: Uhm 2014-06-01T01:33:25Z monod: I'm still new to Lisp though 2014-06-01T01:33:30Z monod: And now I got to go 2014-06-01T01:33:34Z monod: Cya later! 2014-06-01T01:33:36Z monod quit (Quit: Quit) 2014-06-01T01:34:46Z huza joined #lisp 2014-06-01T01:35:24Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-01T01:35:58Z sweetpotato quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-01T01:38:28Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-06-01T01:44:50Z MouldyOldBones quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-01T01:46:06Z huza quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2014-06-01T01:46:47Z varjag_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-06-01T01:48:54Z clintm quit (Quit: clintm) 2014-06-01T01:49:23Z chu joined #lisp 2014-06-01T01:50:07Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-01T01:59:44Z MouldyOldBones joined #lisp 2014-06-01T02:08:13Z emma quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 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Featuring acting so good Kirk Cameron would shed a single tear. http://www.efukt.com/21122_The_Anal_Full_Nelson.html 2014-06-01T03:03:14Z lolllipooop quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-01T03:09:59Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2014-06-01T03:12:14Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-01T03:12:26Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2014-06-01T03:12:26Z qiemem quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-06-01T03:14:06Z tinyblak quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-01T03:14:58Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-01T03:15:30Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-01T03:15:44Z PuercoPop: stassats: Excuse my ignorance, But if you are using Java to call the compiler on the device, wouldn't it make more sense to use android-ndk's tool to cross compile sbcl on android? 2014-06-01T03:16:19Z stassats: that's what i'm doing? 2014-06-01T03:18:10Z PuercoPop: ok, I misunderstood you then. 2014-06-01T03:18:37Z stassats: android has a peculiar libc 2014-06-01T03:18:57Z stassats: it throws me a fault at 0xDEADBAAD, but what happens, no idea 2014-06-01T03:19:17Z stassats: something baad, apparently 2014-06-01T03:21:26Z topkek joined #lisp 2014-06-01T03:22:35Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-01T03:23:53Z topkek: Why macros in Lisp more special than Cs? 2014-06-01T03:24:39Z phadthai: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Lisp#Macros 2014-06-01T03:26:48Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-06-01T03:29:30Z clop2 joined #lisp 2014-06-01T03:31:35Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-01T03:32:01Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-01T03:34:05Z topkek: phadthai: thank you 2014-06-01T03:37:12Z mueble joined #lisp 2014-06-01T03:37:29Z mueble quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-01T03:42:03Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-01T03:45:09Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-01T03:53:37Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-01T03:53:57Z beach joined #lisp 2014-06-01T03:54:09Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2014-06-01T03:58:40Z jxv quit (Quit: QUIT) 2014-06-01T04:03:17Z yacks quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-01T04:04:15Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-01T04:05:45Z stassats: alright, got somewhat reasonable SBCL on native Android 2014-06-01T04:06:20Z stassats: next stop for SBCL android: making sbcl.so, so that it can be loaded from Java and make GUI apps 2014-06-01T04:06:26Z stassats: easier said than done 2014-06-01T04:06:30Z boogie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-01T04:09:50Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-01T04:12:11Z arbscht joined #lisp 2014-06-01T04:14:55Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-01T04:20:35Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2014-06-01T04:21:17Z rockymadden joined #lisp 2014-06-01T04:21:25Z rockymadden left #lisp 2014-06-01T04:21:29Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-01T04:24:41Z madist joined #lisp 2014-06-01T04:26:39Z gmcastil joined #lisp 2014-06-01T04:29:27Z topkek quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-06-01T04:29:35Z dmiles_afk: anyone here use SNePS ? 2014-06-01T04:29:49Z housel quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-01T04:30:11Z housel joined #lisp 2014-06-01T04:36:48Z Sean-Der joined #lisp 2014-06-01T04:37:24Z Sean-Der quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-01T04:37:33Z Intensity quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2014-06-01T04:39:32Z effy quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-01T04:40:10Z mmaul joined #lisp 2014-06-01T04:41:30Z Rptx quit (Quit: gonna sleep) 2014-06-01T04:42:15Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-06-01T04:43:43Z effy joined #lisp 2014-06-01T04:46:02Z Intensity joined #lisp 2014-06-01T04:47:30Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-01T04:48:03Z JuniorRoy joined #lisp 2014-06-01T04:50:05Z JuniorRoy1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-01T04:50:26Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-01T04:54:51Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-01T04:59:11Z chu joined #lisp 2014-06-01T05:00:18Z madist quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-01T05:01:35Z madist joined #lisp 2014-06-01T05:10:36Z owl-v- joined #lisp 2014-06-01T05:15:28Z MjrTom`-` joined #lisp 2014-06-01T05:15:30Z MjrTom`-` quit (Changing host) 2014-06-01T05:15:30Z MjrTom`-` joined #lisp 2014-06-01T05:15:30Z MjrTom quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-01T05:15:35Z MjrTom`-` is now known as MjrTom 2014-06-01T05:15:56Z MjrTom quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-01T05:16:21Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-01T05:20:20Z _JokerDoom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-01T05:23:52Z MjrTom quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-01T05:23:52Z MjrTom`-` joined #lisp 2014-06-01T05:24:00Z MjrTom`-` is now known as MjrTom 2014-06-01T05:25:16Z JokerDoom joined #lisp 2014-06-01T05:29:38Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-01T05:30:22Z KCL_ joined #lisp 2014-06-01T05:30:38Z juiko joined #lisp 2014-06-01T05:33:02Z juiko quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-01T05:33:20Z juiko joined #lisp 2014-06-01T05:33:47Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-01T05:35:14Z juiko quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-01T05:35:34Z juiko joined #lisp 2014-06-01T05:36:01Z beach: JokerDoom: So did you decide to learn Common Lisp? 2014-06-01T05:37:27Z juiko quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-01T05:41:58Z mhd joined #lisp 2014-06-01T05:47:23Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-01T05:49:39Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-01T05:51:10Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-01T05:55:34Z juiko` joined #lisp 2014-06-01T05:55:56Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-01T05:56:28Z mhd quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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AFAIK, string< returns either T or NIL. No? 2014-06-01T11:50:23Z stassats: no 2014-06-01T11:50:51Z dandersen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-01T11:50:51Z Poenikatu: stassats: So when does string< return 0 (zero)? 2014-06-01T11:51:07Z stassats: clhs string< 2014-06-01T11:51:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_stgeq_.htm 2014-06-01T11:51:18Z arbscht joined #lisp 2014-06-01T11:51:31Z joe-w-bimedina joined #lisp 2014-06-01T11:55:09Z Poenikatu: stassats: TVM 2014-06-01T11:55:15Z nyef joined #lisp 2014-06-01T11:56:04Z Poenikatu: stassats: I *had* read the CLHS, but had not absorbed the implication of a mismatching index. Thank you for bring that to my attention. 2014-06-01T11:56:18Z Poenikatu: *bringing 2014-06-01T11:56:20Z joe-w-bimedina: I used to be able to add a cout inside a C function I'm wrapping with cffi::defcfun so it would cout the value of an input param into the inferior lisp buffer of emacs as I ran my code. Now that is not working though I am doing it the same way as before. Can someone help me debug this e.g. does that work for you. I'm on Ubuntu TT/emacs24/sbcl/slime 2014-06-01T11:56:55Z stassats: add a newline character? 2014-06-01T11:57:07Z Poenikatu left #lisp 2014-06-01T11:57:07Z oconnore quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-01T11:58:26Z MarkusBarthlen joined #lisp 2014-06-01T12:02:45Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-01T12:02:51Z joe-w-bimedina: stassats: man you debugged that quick. Thank you very much, that worked like a charm 2014-06-01T12:03:20Z stassats: that's line buffering for oyu 2014-06-01T12:03:26Z stassats: you, rather 2014-06-01T12:05:04Z joe-w-bimedina: great, that will clear up so many issues for me 2014-06-01T12:06:07Z stassats: you can also flush the buffer, but usually, a newline is what you need anyway 2014-06-01T12:06:29Z dandersen joined #lisp 2014-06-01T12:06:36Z mathrick__ joined #lisp 2014-06-01T12:06:38Z joe-w-bimedina: what is flushing the buffer 2014-06-01T12:06:40Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-01T12:07:09Z mathrick_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-01T12:07:25Z joe-w-bimedina: oh nevermind, as long as end result is met I don't need to take up any more of your time :) 2014-06-01T12:14:07Z MarkusBarthlen quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-01T12:14:41Z huza quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-01T12:16:58Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-01T12:18:12Z joe-w-bimedina: strassats: pls let me know if this is off topic but since we just talked about cout's, can you tell me how to add a cout inside of the carray_to_std_vector macro in this code , it is c but for the purpose of debugging cffi 2014-06-01T12:18:35Z joe-w-bimedina: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/884fbd345979086d8a1d 2014-06-01T12:20:14Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-01T12:23:03Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-01T12:24:15Z c74d quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-01T12:26:48Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-01T12:26:49Z c74d joined #lisp 2014-06-01T12:27:22Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-01T12:30:26Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-01T12:32:30Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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A variable is storage for a value, named by a symbol. 2014-06-01T13:24:53Z iAran: @nyef that i understood 2014-06-01T13:24:57Z stassats: iAran: you are doing it wrong 2014-06-01T13:25:08Z nyef: ... Something isn't right there in terms of evaluation model. What Lisp are you using? 2014-06-01T13:25:19Z iAran: common lisp, clozure 2014-06-01T13:25:41Z nyef: Hrm. 2014-06-01T13:25:43Z stassats: nyef: it's right if a-function = symbol-function 2014-06-01T13:26:07Z stassats: symbol-value 2014-06-01T13:26:15Z nyef: Right, symbol-value. 2014-06-01T13:26:33Z nyef: Umm... But that shouldn't be unbound-variable, should it? 2014-06-01T13:26:46Z nyef: Because symbol-value isn't accessing the symbol's value /as a variable/. 2014-06-01T13:26:46Z plerp joined #lisp 2014-06-01T13:26:51Z iAran: but the quoted symbol 'some-symbol does not have a value yet 2014-06-01T13:27:29Z iAran: i want to pass a variable whose value is a symbol 2014-06-01T13:27:39Z stassats: do you really want that? 2014-06-01T13:27:57Z stassats: you are passing values, not variables 2014-06-01T13:28:39Z iAran: is that really weird? i do not know the proper way 2014-06-01T13:29:03Z iAran: @stassats yes, a value which is a symbol 2014-06-01T13:29:17Z scopes quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-01T13:29:22Z iAran: a variable whose slot-value is that symbol 2014-06-01T13:29:39Z stassats: variables have not "slot-value" 2014-06-01T13:31:10Z iAran: @stassats variables are represented by symbols, if i undestand correctly 2014-06-01T13:31:24Z stassats: variables are represented by variables 2014-06-01T13:31:32Z iAran: and symbols have symbol-value and symbol-function slot 2014-06-01T13:31:33Z nyef: No, variables are NAMED by symbols. 2014-06-01T13:32:13Z nyef: The representation of variables depends on which of three kinds of variable they are, one of which is carefully left unspecified. 2014-06-01T13:32:19Z iAran: variables are values themselves then? 2014-06-01T13:32:38Z stassats: variables are not values 2014-06-01T13:33:31Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-06-01T13:34:01Z iAran: a variable has value, symbols can be used as values, and symbols name values? 2014-06-01T13:34:37Z stassats: symbols do not name values 2014-06-01T13:35:15Z iAran: sorry, my mistake, symbols name variables 2014-06-01T13:35:26Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-06-01T13:36:42Z stassats: so, what is your confusion then? 2014-06-01T13:37:21Z iAran: so, variables can only be introduced by a binding action, such as let? setq an new symbol simply signals an error 2014-06-01T13:38:08Z stassats: clhs special 2014-06-01T13:38:08Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_specia.htm 2014-06-01T13:38:27Z iAran: but, still how can i define and pass variable whose value is a symbol, as a function parameter? 2014-06-01T13:38:51Z stassats: you can't pass variables, again 2014-06-01T13:38:53Z iAran: thanks for the ref. :) 2014-06-01T13:39:06Z stassats: they are not first class objects 2014-06-01T13:40:28Z iAran: oh, right. so how to define and pass a vaule which is a symbol? 2014-06-01T13:40:31Z ggole: symbols name variables, but symbols are not the same as variables 2014-06-01T13:40:52Z stassats: iAran: as any other value 2014-06-01T13:41:09Z iAran: @ggole thanks, i'm beginning to undestand the difference 2014-06-01T13:41:49Z ggole: Think of them as data structures 2014-06-01T13:43:48Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-01T13:44:38Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-06-01T13:45:33Z pjb: iAran: you cannot refer to lexical variables using the symbol naming them, because the name of lexical variable is forgotten at run-time. 2014-06-01T13:45:48Z pjb: iAran: only special variables can be referenced by name. 2014-06-01T13:46:19Z iAran: (defun sym-info (s) (describe s)) (let ((x 'some-symbol)) (sym-info x)) it worked as my initial understanding. 2014-06-01T13:46:20Z pjb: iAran: instead, you can use closures. But you should probably not, since that leads to the same difficulties as when you use pointers in C. 2014-06-01T13:46:36Z iAran: my bad. i used slot-value in sym-info :( 2014-06-01T13:46:37Z pjb: iAran: here, no value is sought. 2014-06-01T13:46:57Z pjb: slot-value is yet another thing. Do you have objects with slots? 2014-06-01T13:47:29Z clop2 joined #lisp 2014-06-01T13:47:46Z joe-w-bimedina: how can I add a foreign-free to this function for the purposes of GC without any speed increase, I need to gc the foreign-alloc, 2014-06-01T13:48:11Z joe-w-bimedina: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/26256bfa7e4533c1be44 2014-06-01T13:48:26Z iAran: i see, i thought symbol were variables, and variables had slots. 2014-06-01T13:48:55Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-01T13:49:06Z pjb: No, variables don't have slots. They are bound to values. 2014-06-01T13:49:26Z iAran: which is plainly wrong now. thanks for your clarification! 2014-06-01T13:49:38Z pjb: Symbol declared special have a variable that can be not bound, and which is dynamically dynamically bound. 2014-06-01T13:50:01Z pjb: defvar and defparameter declare the name symbol as special, therefore define dynamic variables. 2014-06-01T13:50:18Z pnpuff: are lexical variabes bound in the global environment? 2014-06-01T13:50:22Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-01T13:50:31Z pjb: No, they are lexical. 2014-06-01T13:50:41Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-01T13:52:56Z pnpuff: ok, I supposed that all lexical variables were bounded in the global env... 2014-06-01T13:53:48Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-01T13:54:52Z iAran: defparameter allocates a new variable(a slot to hold/ref values), introducing a variable-value(default to nil) binding, which is named by a symbol. 2014-06-01T13:55:15Z owl-v- joined #lisp 2014-06-01T13:55:18Z stassats: there's nothing default in defparameter 2014-06-01T13:55:26Z stassats: defaulted 2014-06-01T13:55:32Z pjb: that. 2014-06-01T13:55:56Z pjb: iAran: and with defvar the default is to have the variable not bound. You can test it with boundp 2014-06-01T13:56:14Z stassats: what it does is twofold, it proclaims the variable to be special, so that whenever the compiler encounters it, it doesn't consider it to be a lexical variable 2014-06-01T13:56:22Z pjb: and you can make a special variable unbound with MAKUNBOUND. 2014-06-01T13:56:25Z stassats: and then it sets the value of the variable 2014-06-01T13:56:40Z iAran: yes. defvar does, while defparameter does not ... 2014-06-01T13:56:41Z pjb: the symbol naming the variable is proclaimed to be SPECIAL. 2014-06-01T13:56:42Z JokerDoom: beach, yes I did 2014-06-01T13:57:33Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-06-01T13:59:44Z iAran: variables are allocated slots, while symbols are only naming references? unbound != value is nil ? 2014-06-01T14:00:16Z stassats: unbound means "no value", and NIL is a value 2014-06-01T14:01:18Z iAran: nil must be a special entity i guess, not like NULL pointer as in C 2014-06-01T14:01:35Z stassats: nil is not a special entity 2014-06-01T14:02:39Z pjb: NIL is nothing special, it is just a symbol named "NIL" exported from the package named "COMMON-LISP" and bound to itself, as if by DEFCONSTANT. 2014-06-01T14:02:42Z therik quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-01T14:02:44Z killmaster quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-01T14:03:18Z pjb: iAran: that's the magic of NIL: it is a mere symbol. 2014-06-01T14:03:19Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-06-01T14:03:29Z iAran: i was thinking unbound means value of slot is NULL, and a value of nil points to the/a nil object. 2014-06-01T14:03:44Z stassats: who told you that? 2014-06-01T14:03:49Z pjb: NULL is also a symbol, and it is even less special than NIL! 2014-06-01T14:04:46Z pjb: NULL is the name of a type containing only the symbol NIL, as if (deftype null () '(member nil)) 2014-06-01T14:05:06Z iAran: just guessing. duh, i should read more carefully instead of skimming and waste your time here :( 2014-06-01T14:05:07Z stassats: it's also a name of a function 2014-06-01T14:05:16Z pjb: Note that NIL is also the name of a type containing no value, as if (deftype nil () '(member)). 2014-06-01T14:05:31Z pjb: That would be a good idea. 2014-06-01T14:05:38Z stassats: and NIL is also a list, empty at that 2014-06-01T14:06:05Z iAran: how could it be a list and a symbol at the same time? 2014-06-01T14:06:13Z pjb: Just because we say so. 2014-06-01T14:06:27Z pjb: This is programming! Programmers just have to say it for it to be true! 2014-06-01T14:06:39Z dandersen is now known as dkcl 2014-06-01T14:08:16Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-06-01T14:08:35Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-01T14:09:17Z killmaster joined #lisp 2014-06-01T14:10:18Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-01T14:10:23Z axion: in the same way 'true' can be anything except nil, but not necessarily t 2014-06-01T14:11:33Z jusss is now known as cfy_ 2014-06-01T14:12:02Z lyanchih_ joined #lisp 2014-06-01T14:14:32Z iAran: try to clarify on variables: let only creates name/symbol-value bindings ,without creating variables(slots to hold values). it that right? 2014-06-01T14:15:17Z stassats: let usually create lexical variables, no symbol-value here 2014-06-01T14:15:43Z stassats: and you can't create a variable without creating a variable, logically, there's a variable 2014-06-01T14:16:06Z Soft joined #lisp 2014-06-01T14:16:39Z JokerDoom: this isn't on topic at all here, but some people might be able to point me in the right direction, is there an irc channel here on freenode for messing around with super old hardware like a Commodore 64 or 128 2014-06-01T14:17:07Z stassats: that's not "super" old 2014-06-01T14:17:18Z JokerDoom: came out in 77 didn't it? 2014-06-01T14:17:38Z JokerDoom: oh no, no it didn't, it was 1982 2014-06-01T14:18:25Z JokerDoom: sure it's no PDP1 2014-06-01T14:18:44Z QwertyDragon quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Iceape 2.7.12/20130119143918]) 2014-06-01T14:18:55Z stassats: i was thinking Z1 2014-06-01T14:18:58Z mbrock: older than me, and I'm starting to feel old 2014-06-01T14:19:43Z mbrock: the C64 was fun though. do you have a working one, JokerDoom? 2014-06-01T14:20:01Z JokerDoom: I do believe so, I also have a 128 pretty much unused 2014-06-01T14:21:04Z axion: it's offtopic for freenode for channels not having a project dealing with open code, thus channels are usually not that generic 2014-06-01T14:21:13Z axion: you may try #c64 though 2014-06-01T14:21:52Z iAran: in (let ((x 1)) forms*), value 1 is already there, and let is just binds 'x to it. and in (let ((x some-variable-already-exsit)) form*), let just binds x to an old value. 2014-06-01T14:21:52Z JokerDoom: ty 2014-06-01T14:21:55Z mbrock: I'd hope there's an open source community making C64 Lisp compilers and whatnot :) 2014-06-01T14:22:37Z stassats: the main problem is scarcity of memory 2014-06-01T14:26:06Z zwer quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-01T14:28:21Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-01T14:28:41Z prxq joined #lisp 2014-06-01T14:32:00Z gendl joined #lisp 2014-06-01T14:32:58Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-01T14:33:40Z zickzackv joined #lisp 2014-06-01T14:34:47Z therik joined #lisp 2014-06-01T14:38:21Z lduros quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-01T14:40:11Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-01T14:44:00Z pnpuff: ok, I was wrong because of maybe I was referring to a Lisp1... 2014-06-01T14:44:23Z stassats: that's still wrong 2014-06-01T14:45:45Z Rptx joined #lisp 2014-06-01T14:46:25Z pnpuff: ...a purely lexical implementation 2014-06-01T14:48:39Z plerp quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-01T14:48:52Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-01T14:49:59Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-01T14:50:55Z edgar-rft: this is super-old hardware: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism 2014-06-01T14:53:11Z scopes joined #lisp 2014-06-01T14:56:12Z cfy_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-01T15:01:53Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2014-06-01T15:01:54Z Denommus` quit (Changing host) 2014-06-01T15:01:54Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2014-06-01T15:02:12Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2014-06-01T15:04:32Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-01T15:04:43Z Eyess quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-01T15:05:17Z Eyes joined #lisp 2014-06-01T15:06:02Z Natch joined #lisp 2014-06-01T15:06:12Z oconnore joined #lisp 2014-06-01T15:08:59Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-06-01T15:09:18Z Bike_ joined #lisp 2014-06-01T15:10:39Z eudoxia quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-01T15:11:03Z Bike quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-01T15:11:06Z Bike_ is now known as Bike 2014-06-01T15:11:10Z joe-w-bimedina quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2014-06-01T15:12:18Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-01T15:14:28Z dandersen joined #lisp 2014-06-01T15:17:36Z Rptx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-01T15:18:39Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-01T15:20:03Z pjb: iAran: in (let ((x 1)) form*), let does NOT bind X to 1. It binds a variable NAMED BY X, to 1. 2014-06-01T15:21:34Z pjb: iAran: you have to be always careful in lisp, about things and the name of things. There's this QUOTE operator, this FUNCTION operator, the various kind of DESIGNATORS, etc. 2014-06-01T15:25:13Z rvchangue quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-01T15:25:47Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-01T15:28:53Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-01T15:33:18Z __main__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-01T15:33:21Z _main_ joined #lisp 2014-06-01T15:35:54Z pnpuff: maybe, in that axample, the identifier named X is lexically bounded to a previously self evaluated object such is a number 2014-06-01T15:36:02Z pnpuff: If I'm not wrong... 2014-06-01T15:36:13Z pnpuff: *example 2014-06-01T15:36:23Z _main_ is now known as __main__ 2014-06-01T15:36:56Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-06-01T15:37:37Z owl-v- quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-01T15:37:55Z owl-v- joined #lisp 2014-06-01T15:41:24Z normanrichards joined #lisp 2014-06-01T15:42:14Z eni joined #lisp 2014-06-01T15:44:47Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-01T15:47:20Z rtoym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-01T15:49:40Z pjb: pnpuff: how many times do we have to repeat: symbols are not bound, variables are bounds! 2014-06-01T15:50:37Z normanrichards quit 2014-06-01T15:50:53Z pjb: And the verb is to bind, bound, bound, not bounded! 2014-06-01T15:52:02Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-01T15:52:35Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-01T15:54:28Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-01T15:56:35Z kanru` joined #lisp 2014-06-01T15:59:12Z __class__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-01T16:00:42Z qiemem joined #lisp 2014-06-01T16:00:43Z mishoo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-01T16:02:08Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-01T16:05:58Z iAran: pnpuff: i am reading the specifics in lisp's evaluation model, which has clarified a lot for me :) http://common-lisp.net/project/bknr/static/lmman/fd-eva.xml#evaluator-chapter 2014-06-01T16:05:59Z dandersen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-01T16:06:17Z dandersen joined #lisp 2014-06-01T16:07:07Z stassats: that's maclisp 2014-06-01T16:07:07Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2014-06-01T16:07:37Z stassats: or rather, LML 2014-06-01T16:07:59Z iAran: while reading, i got this weird analogy myself: symbols are like natural language, and variables are at conceptual level, while values are 'real-world' objects :) 2014-06-01T16:08:07Z stassats: the point being, it's not Common Lisp, even though it's close 2014-06-01T16:09:06Z stassats: symbols are like tokens in other languages 2014-06-01T16:09:24Z __class__ joined #lisp 2014-06-01T16:10:13Z iAran: we use symbols to communicate to interpreter/compilers, which thinks in variables terms conceptually; but after all, programs are running with real values. 2014-06-01T16:10:52Z pnpuff: pjb: ok, so the variable named x was lexically bound to the value 1 2014-06-01T16:10:59Z pjb: Yes. 2014-06-01T16:11:08Z stassats: it may be not lexical 2014-06-01T16:11:16Z lyanchih joined #lisp 2014-06-01T16:11:21Z lyanchih_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-01T16:11:30Z pjb: iAran: yes. Notice that symbols are also values, which allows for self-consciousness and meta-programming. 2014-06-01T16:11:48Z iAran: pjb: i got that :) 2014-06-01T16:11:54Z pnpuff: not lexical if thre is a "static" inside let 2014-06-01T16:13:14Z pjb: We're considering (let ((x 1)) forms*) not (let ((x 1)) (declare (special x)) declarations* forms*). 2014-06-01T16:13:34Z pnpuff: ok, right.. I'm sorry 2014-06-01T16:20:33Z effy: i don't know if it's politically correc to say that here but it means no harm, i came to CL for the large amount of awesome litterature using it as a fundation, but lisp being very unique in it's feature, do you think the concept learned here especially all the things that rely on macros can be adapted to other languages, or once you learn this you are trapped and can only use your new found power in CL ? 2014-06-01T16:21:50Z gendl quit (Quit: gendl) 2014-06-01T16:22:50Z rvchangue joined #lisp 2014-06-01T16:23:05Z iAran quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-01T16:25:46Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-01T16:26:12Z pjb: effy: the later. 2014-06-01T16:26:21Z prxq: up to a point, at least 2014-06-01T16:26:47Z pjb: Now if you restrict other languages to emacs lisp, scheme, clojure, I think you'll be a better programmer in those language having learned CL. 2014-06-01T16:27:19Z pjb: Otherwise, there's always https://www.informatimago.com/articles/life-saver.html 2014-06-01T16:29:03Z gniourf quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-01T16:29:11Z effy: that's kind of scaring me, after learning some clojure i started to feel frustrated when i have to use python and it lacks the immutable datastructures (and that's just a little thing), i'm affraid to become crazy if i learn a huge thing and can never use it outside of my own pet projects 2014-06-01T16:29:54Z pjb: effy: don't do pet projects. Start up new companies, be boss, impose the good tools. 2014-06-01T16:31:42Z effy: pjb: i am not familiar enough with CL to judge it fairly, but from 10 000 thousand feet away it doesn't seem to be the best tool for everything, i have the feeling you wouldn't want to chose it for anything web related of android / iphone related either :/ 2014-06-01T16:31:54Z effy: which reduce the number of oportunities quite a lot 2014-06-01T16:33:04Z pjb: have a look at https://wukix.com/ 2014-06-01T16:33:43Z pjb: effy: put things in perspective: http://www.salon.com/2014/06/01/help_us_thomas_piketty_the_1s_sick_and_twisted_new_scheme/ 2014-06-01T16:33:57Z effy: do you have some equivalent of your life saving link for python or ruby instead ? i'm not big on cpp :/ 2014-06-01T16:34:05Z pjb: If you career objective is to have 50 java programmers under you, then no, CL won't serve you. 2014-06-01T16:34:20Z _8hzp joined #lisp 2014-06-01T16:34:46Z pjb: effy: See http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/324312 2014-06-01T16:34:54Z effy: pjb: i saw the video presentation of mocl a few weeks ago it seems pretty cool, but the smallest license is like 200$ that's kind of a deal breaker for me :( 2014-06-01T16:36:30Z eni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-01T16:36:56Z pjb: That's only 100 customers for a $1 app! 2014-06-01T16:37:25Z pjb: Anyways, when you start up a company you get VC capital to buy tools. 2014-06-01T16:37:52Z _8hzp` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-01T16:39:50Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-01T16:39:57Z effy: everything depends on context i agree, but i'm not doing VC, i'm just a small guy freelancing enough to pay the rent and have a lot of free time :) 2014-06-01T16:40:58Z pjb: You still seems to have conflicting objectives. 2014-06-01T16:41:13Z gendl joined #lisp 2014-06-01T16:41:20Z pjb: Remember, in 50 years, 100 years at most, you'll be dead anyways. 2014-06-01T16:41:23Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2014-06-01T16:42:57Z effy: i dont know what to answer to that :/ it seems most likely yes 2014-06-01T16:42:59Z beach: effy: You would be surprised what you can get away with in industry sometimes. I once had a job that imposed a particular procedural language. But I wrote a Lisp interpreter in that language and wrote the application in Lisp, and finished on time. 2014-06-01T16:43:04Z beach: Nobody noticed! 2014-06-01T16:43:14Z gendl quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-01T16:43:59Z effy: beach: that's sneaky ! i love it, but how realistic is it to implement your own lisp interpreter with decent performance 2014-06-01T16:44:18Z beach: effy: I am not saying this as an example of what should be done, but as an example of the fact that you can get away with a lot of things. 2014-06-01T16:44:27Z beach: Including using Lisp where you were told something else. 2014-06-01T16:44:28Z drewc: effy: I do web related android/iphone apps for a living in CL ... 2014-06-01T16:44:38Z lemonodor quit (Quit: lemonodor) 2014-06-01T16:44:45Z pnpuff: beach: I'm still forced to use a R4RS with CL 2014-06-01T16:45:17Z effy: drewc: that's a very encouraging statement, can i ask you what keywords i should search for when i want to start web (and which for mobile) in CL ? 2014-06-01T16:45:23Z beach: pnpuff: What does that mean? 2014-06-01T16:45:28Z drewc: So, if you see reduced opportunity because of that lack of such things, I might say that you are entirely wrong! 2014-06-01T16:46:13Z pnpuff: that maybe there isn't a good R5RS implementation freely available written in CL 2014-06-01T16:46:33Z beach: pnpuff: But that would be almost trivial to do though. 2014-06-01T16:46:46Z beach: pnpuff: And performance would be improved as well. :) 2014-06-01T16:47:41Z pnpuff: maybe there is a lack of interest 2014-06-01T16:48:02Z drewc: effy: Lispworks has an Alpha program for their android/iphone CL, CCL works great on Android, SBCL just came out with and ARMHF version ... the keywords I do not know, I do not work for google anymore ;). There is also MOCL, which I have not tried ... and ABCL, which might work on dalvik as well. 2014-06-01T16:48:05Z beach: I would think the main person interested would be the one forced to use R4RS. 2014-06-01T16:48:46Z p_l: drewc: ABCL has issues to solve before being viable platform on Dalvik, but it is considered in the long term, iirc 2014-06-01T16:49:32Z pnpuff: beach: I miss the basis since I'm still not able to implement a decent working scheme 2014-06-01T16:50:29Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-01T16:50:41Z drewc: p_l: I figured as much ... I like CL standard over Java regardless, so only tried ABCL once may years ago, saw the Java backtrace, and stopped. 2014-06-01T16:50:41Z dandersen is now known as dkcl 2014-06-01T16:51:46Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-01T16:52:38Z drewc: effy: and of course, for WWW itself, the keyword is in the /topic : hunchentoot 1.2.27 2014-06-01T16:52:46Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-06-01T16:53:16Z effy: thank you 2014-06-01T16:55:58Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-01T16:57:06Z drewc has 4 devices in front of him: a tablet, a phone, a thinkpad X41 and a thinkpad T510. The T510 runs Mint 16, the rest are Android ... and lisp is working on all of them. 2014-06-01T16:58:08Z effy: when i google for mobile CL i got only links to mocl are you running something different ? 2014-06-01T16:58:15Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-01T16:58:42Z drewc: effy: OR: you can find a tonne of excuses why you should not work in and/or use CL. The more excuses you make and use, the more contracts I will have to fill in the void .... 2014-06-01T16:58:47Z effy: does SBCL support for arm means that you can just cross compile for android ? 2014-06-01T16:58:51Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-06-01T16:59:26Z stassats: there's no sbcl.so 2014-06-01T17:00:16Z effy: drewc: my communication is probably poor, i'm not trying to spit on CL i wouldn't come here and read books on the subject just for an oportunity to troll, i'm just asking feedbacks on what really happen, your exemple is more a motivation than anything else :) 2014-06-01T17:00:58Z p_l: effy: the problem on android is that you need to generate a shared library, not just an executable, for anything that doesn't go "outside" Android ecosystem 2014-06-01T17:01:50Z stassats: there will be sbcl.so 2014-06-01T17:01:57Z pjb: effy: what happens is that sirens call out to lure you on to python, ruby, java, and you as a lisper have only two choices: clog your ears, or have or coworkers tie you to the mast. 2014-06-01T17:02:32Z pjb: Well, you could also choose to go with the sirens, of course. 2014-06-01T17:03:08Z drewc: effy: you are aware that my phone is 10x more powerful than the PC i started using CL on about 10 years ago, yes? So, I don't use 'mobile CL', whatever that is. and have not tried MOCL because I have better licenses you buy. CCL is my primary, but LW has an app in the google play store and and working on making it the 'Mobile CL'. And I am not an application seller for a living, so run CCL on my android devices and resell those. 2014-06-01T17:04:16Z drewc did buy a LW license in 2008 or so, and will likely do it again if he can put his apps in a .apk because of it. We shall see. 2014-06-01T17:04:24Z dubosec` joined #lisp 2014-06-01T17:04:41Z stassats: bloody lispworks, must release proper sbcl for android sooner 2014-06-01T17:04:44Z drewc: s/you buy/to buy/ 2014-06-01T17:05:24Z pjb: effy: if you choose to stay on the lisp boat, then you do anything you can to make it go. 2014-06-01T17:06:07Z drewc: stassats: do so and at least I will 'purchase an SBCL license', which last time meant buying an evening of drinks for the SBCL developers.... so this time could be a lot more! :P 2014-06-01T17:06:09Z pjb: The point is not to jump to the java motor boat, it's to make the lisp boat sail. 2014-06-01T17:06:37Z AndChat-671600 joined #lisp 2014-06-01T17:07:31Z effy: pjb: I have all these questions for this chan because i dont consider myself a lisper, i am just doing some archeology at the moment, reading PAIP, watching the SICP lectures .. i'm not on the boat yet, i'm still swimming in the middle of a fleat and trying to decide which boat would suit my journey the best 2014-06-01T17:07:31Z drewc lives on a sailboat and uses Lisp, and talks with OpenCPN which he runs on Android ... Does this ship sail? 2014-06-01T17:07:43Z dubosec quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-01T17:08:05Z pjb: See? If he did java, he could instead live on a speedboat in Miami, instead of a Sail in Vancouver :-) 2014-06-01T17:08:43Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-01T17:09:25Z AndChat-671600 quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-01T17:09:31Z effy: but if he did java he would be scrubbing the deck of the boat :P 2014-06-01T17:09:43Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2014-06-01T17:10:03Z pnpuff left #lisp 2014-06-01T17:10:38Z drewc: heh ... it was 2008/9 when I was offered a position by a certain company in California ... some valley of some sort. They offered to buy me a place to live, and I said "NO! I live on a boat, just find me a marina!". Well that is not a thing that is easy, nor has it ever been done ... so I do not work in the ______plex at all. 2014-06-01T17:11:09Z arenz joined #lisp 2014-06-01T17:12:20Z gniourf joined #lisp 2014-06-01T17:12:26Z effy: wow, i'm not sure to follow anymore, are we still with the metaphore of ulysse here ? 2014-06-01T17:12:48Z effy: or do you actually live on a boat 2014-06-01T17:12:56Z drewc: nope, not a metaphor ... I tend to not be metaphorical 2014-06-01T17:14:06Z drewc: I live on my 4th sailboat, I have lived on 3 ... she is a 45' LOD cutter with a 3/4 keel and 8' draft, weighs in at 28 tons. 2014-06-01T17:15:53Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-01T17:16:39Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-01T17:16:48Z drewc: So, I live on the Pacific, which all continents can fit it and still have room for sailboats, and I use CL, which is what the second oldest language in use has in "Common" ... so live in the largest mass and use the second oldest computer language still in use... no metaphor at all, this is the life i want to live and the love i got to give. 2014-06-01T17:18:38Z effy: that seems like a very special life, that's cool :) 2014-06-01T17:20:01Z drewc: having seen both the 'special education' folks in grade school, and The Specials, as many vids as possible!, I hope it is Ska and not, well, 'slow' jams. 2014-06-01T17:20:29Z drewc: :P 2014-06-01T17:20:37Z stassats: can #lisp get something on-topic? 2014-06-01T17:21:34Z drewc: stassats: your're right, will go over the #sailing to talk about LW and SBCL ... my bad. 2014-06-01T17:22:22Z drewc mispelled there ... wonder if that means he was serious 2014-06-01T17:24:19Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-01T17:27:43Z dubosec` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-01T17:30:23Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-01T17:31:06Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2014-06-01T17:31:08Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-01T17:33:05Z kanru` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-01T17:33:23Z KCL_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-01T17:35:35Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-01T17:38:16Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-01T17:40:59Z dandersen joined #lisp 2014-06-01T17:41:57Z dandersen is now known as dkcl 2014-06-01T17:42:44Z atgreen` joined #lisp 2014-06-01T17:43:46Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-01T17:43:54Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-01T17:44:41Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-01T17:50:09Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-01T17:51:41Z lyanchih quit (Quit: lyanchih) 2014-06-01T17:52:10Z elderK joined #lisp 2014-06-01T17:52:19Z elderK: Hey guys, I'm just setting up Slime. 2014-06-01T17:52:28Z elderK: Any idea why after encountering ANY kind of minor error, the swank server will die? 2014-06-01T17:52:31Z elderK: like, 2014-06-01T17:52:45Z elderK: I'm using ECL. If I enter the name of an unbound variable, it says unbound variable. And then the swank server dies. 2014-06-01T17:53:18Z Bike: you're entering this on slime's side or the inferior lisp's? 2014-06-01T17:53:19Z stassats: did you wrap the start-swank with ignore-errors? 2014-06-01T17:53:25Z stassats: or handler-case 2014-06-01T17:53:37Z elderK: no, thanks :) 2014-06-01T17:53:49Z stassats: as in, you shouldn't do that 2014-06-01T17:54:10Z elderK: ah ok 2014-06-01T17:54:20Z elderK: It's really annoying having the server start up over and over 2014-06-01T17:54:35Z elderK: and it kind of makes using it for debugging ,pointless :( 2014-06-01T17:54:37Z stassats: so, you are restarting it? 2014-06-01T17:54:47Z stassats: automatically? 2014-06-01T17:55:02Z elderK: yes 2014-06-01T17:55:07Z elderK: when I next run a command 2014-06-01T17:55:14Z elderK: like eval buffer,etc 2014-06-01T17:55:14Z stassats: if you do, then it means you are using ignore-errors or handler-case 2014-06-01T17:55:31Z elderK: I'll check. I didn't add those myself... 2014-06-01T17:56:48Z elderK: I'm not using ignore-errors. 2014-06-01T17:56:53Z elderK: Also, it's slimv, not emacs slime. 2014-06-01T17:57:07Z stassats: well, you should have started with that 2014-06-01T17:57:50Z elderK: Sorry. :( 2014-06-01T17:59:20Z stassats: anyhow, you are somehow preventing *debugger-hook* from being triggered and falling out of the swank loop 2014-06-01T17:59:31Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-01T17:59:51Z elderK: hm. 2014-06-01T18:00:01Z elderK: given that all I'm doing is entering a bogus name in the repl buffer, 2014-06-01T18:00:03Z elderK: and then the server dies 2014-06-01T18:00:08Z elderK: I'm thinking it's something with slimv 2014-06-01T18:00:09Z elderK: not me 2014-06-01T18:00:09Z elderK: :( 2014-06-01T18:01:19Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-01T18:02:19Z lyanchih_ joined #lisp 2014-06-01T18:03:38Z varjag_ joined #lisp 2014-06-01T18:13:37Z AdmiralBumbleBee quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-01T18:16:58Z nipra1 joined #lisp 2014-06-01T18:17:05Z nipra1 quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-01T18:20:38Z iAran joined #lisp 2014-06-01T18:21:20Z beach left #lisp 2014-06-01T18:22:48Z atgreen` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-01T18:23:27Z mishoo quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-06-01T18:24:26Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-01T18:25:32Z rszeno joined #lisp 2014-06-01T18:25:32Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-06-01T18:26:33Z matko joined #lisp 2014-06-01T18:26:45Z elderK quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-01T18:27:11Z n0n0 joined #lisp 2014-06-01T18:29:13Z tinyblak quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-01T18:29:52Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2014-06-01T18:30:34Z iAran quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-01T18:31:26Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-01T18:31:47Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-01T18:37:05Z lyanchih_ quit (Quit: lyanchih_) 2014-06-01T18:38:23Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-01T18:38:24Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-01T18:39:07Z n0n0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-01T18:39:19Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-06-01T18:42:01Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-01T18:43:38Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-01T18:50:30Z [SLB] quit (Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt) 2014-06-01T18:52:16Z [SLB] joined #lisp 2014-06-01T18:56:18Z zickzackv joined #lisp 2014-06-01T18:57:44Z scopes quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-01T19:00:01Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-01T19:00:10Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-06-01T19:03:03Z tinyblak_ joined #lisp 2014-06-01T19:03:53Z jewel_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-01T19:04:20Z gingerale- joined #lisp 2014-06-01T19:04:37Z gingerale quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-01T19:04:37Z gingerale- is now known as gingerale 2014-06-01T19:05:16Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-01T19:08:02Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2014-06-01T19:08:13Z tinyblak_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-01T19:11:19Z n0n0 joined #lisp 2014-06-01T19:13:13Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-06-01T19:14:21Z michael_lee quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2014-06-01T19:16:30Z mutley89 joined #lisp 2014-06-01T19:16:52Z oleo: anyone able to get hu.dwim.partial-eval to run on 1.2 ? 2014-06-01T19:16:56Z oleo: sbcl 2014-06-01T19:18:51Z atgreen left #lisp 2014-06-01T19:19:34Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-06-01T19:19:56Z replcated joined #lisp 2014-06-01T19:27:04Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-01T19:27:47Z oleo: actually i meant https://github.com/huangjs/peval/blob/master/resource/partial-evaluation.lisp 2014-06-01T19:27:54Z oleo: poly-value won't work here... 2014-06-01T19:28:44Z Sir_herrbatka joined #lisp 2014-06-01T19:28:50Z oleo: even when changing (declare (disable-package-locks + *)) to (declare (sb-ext:disable-package-locks + *)) 2014-06-01T19:29:12Z oleo: arity problem but where ? 2014-06-01T19:29:20Z Bike: In what sense does it not work. 2014-06-01T19:29:36Z stassats: minion: advice on work? 2014-06-01T19:29:37Z minion: #11952: In my experience that is a bad strategy, because the people who ask such questions are the ones who paste the answer into their program without understanding it and then complain that it `does not work'. 2014-06-01T19:29:41Z Sir_herrbatka: good evening 2014-06-01T19:29:45Z Bike: wow, that macrolet is totally pointless though 2014-06-01T19:30:04Z oleo: (poly-value '(5 0 1) 'x) barfs.... 2014-06-01T19:30:59Z Bike: for god's sake include an error message or something 2014-06-01T19:31:05Z Bike: it's not like you've never asked for help on irc before 2014-06-01T19:32:06Z stassats: Bike: but that's usually how oleo asks for help 2014-06-01T19:32:11Z Bike: yes i know 2014-06-01T19:32:18Z Bike: and i'm still going along with it because i hate myself 2014-06-01T19:36:26Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-01T19:38:07Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: conversation expired into eternal something) 2014-06-01T19:42:51Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-01T19:45:55Z kcj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-01T19:53:39Z therik quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-01T19:53:43Z Shinmera quit (Quit: brb) 2014-06-01T19:53:55Z FVG quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-01T19:54:13Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-01T19:54:28Z FVG joined #lisp 2014-06-01T19:56:15Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-06-01T19:56:17Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-06-01T19:59:17Z Sir_herrbatka: eeeh 2014-06-01T19:59:24Z Sir_herrbatka: i don't understand macrolets 2014-06-01T19:59:58Z Bike: they're just local macros. 2014-06-01T20:00:18Z pjb: Sir_herrbatka: do you know C? 2014-06-01T20:00:25Z Sir_herrbatka: sure 2014-06-01T20:00:40Z Sir_herrbatka: Bike: like labels? 2014-06-01T20:00:45Z Sir_herrbatka: or let 2014-06-01T20:00:49Z Sir_herrbatka: ok, i see 2014-06-01T20:00:51Z eni joined #lisp 2014-06-01T20:00:56Z Bike: In that it lexically binds something, yes. 2014-06-01T20:01:04Z Sir_herrbatka: right 2014-06-01T20:01:08Z Sir_herrbatka: pjb: what about C? 2014-06-01T20:01:13Z Sir_herrbatka: i'm mostly C++ 2014-06-01T20:01:15Z Bike: i mean, it is macro_let_ :) 2014-06-01T20:01:23Z Sir_herrbatka: … 2014-06-01T20:01:25Z pjb: Have you already see stuff like: int f(int x){ / #define F(Y) … / F(1); / F(2); / F(3); / #undef F / return r;} ? 2014-06-01T20:01:28Z oleo: it's chevrolet! 2014-06-01T20:01:29Z oleo: lol 2014-06-01T20:01:31Z Sir_herrbatka: Bike: good point 2014-06-01T20:01:31Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-01T20:01:37Z pjb: THat is, a C macro defined, used in a function, and undefined? 2014-06-01T20:01:52Z Bike: man, i'm glad i haven't seen that. is it common? 2014-06-01T20:01:54Z Sir_herrbatka: pjb: C macros are evil 2014-06-01T20:02:23Z pjb: Nonetheless, it's quite useful, and I use it when I need it. You can count #undef in .c files to get an idea. 2014-06-01T20:02:34Z pjb: macrolets are like that, but good and nice. 2014-06-01T20:02:39Z Sir_herrbatka: right 2014-06-01T20:02:57Z Sir_herrbatka: lisp macros actually makes sense 2014-06-01T20:03:14Z Sir_herrbatka: and written in lisp, actually 2014-06-01T20:03:41Z Sir_herrbatka: good night 2014-06-01T20:03:43Z pjb: Now, macrolet can let you do some nice things, when used in the macroexpansion of a normal macro, since they let you extend the language, for the body of a DSL form. 2014-06-01T20:04:25Z Sir_herrbatka: pjb: !!!!!!!!!!!! 2014-06-01T20:04:46Z Sir_herrbatka: this sounds very interesting, but i'm tired already 2014-06-01T20:05:48Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-01T20:07:47Z zygentoma is now known as zy_nulldevice_ma 2014-06-01T20:07:49Z AndChat-671600 joined #lisp 2014-06-01T20:08:00Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-01T20:09:38Z n0n0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-01T20:10:46Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2014-06-01T20:10:46Z oleo is now known as Guest57904 2014-06-01T20:10:50Z oleo__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-01T20:11:08Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-01T20:11:18Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-01T20:11:39Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2014-06-01T20:12:00Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2014-06-01T20:12:00Z Denommus` quit (Changing host) 2014-06-01T20:12:00Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2014-06-01T20:12:07Z oleo__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-01T20:12:15Z AndChat-671600 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-01T20:12:17Z Guest57904 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-01T20:12:43Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-06-01T20:23:41Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2014-06-01T20:23:49Z Sir_herrbatka: pjb: thanks for taking your time, and have a good night 2014-06-01T20:27:34Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-06-01T20:27:57Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2014-06-01T20:27:57Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-06-01T20:28:21Z pjb: Sir_herrbatka: Good night! 2014-06-01T20:28:28Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-01T20:28:49Z AndChat-671600 joined #lisp 2014-06-01T20:30:32Z AndChat-671600 quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-01T20:32:04Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-01T20:32:48Z Sir_herrbatka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-01T20:35:05Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-01T20:35:26Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-01T20:35:51Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-01T20:41:20Z dandersen joined #lisp 2014-06-01T20:42:25Z foreignFunction quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-01T20:43:29Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-01T20:49:01Z matko quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-01T20:49:12Z matko joined #lisp 2014-06-01T20:49:29Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-01T20:55:20Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-01T20:55:56Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-01T20:56:14Z replcated: What's the purpose of quicklisp symlinking the hyperspec into ~/quicklisp/HyperSpec? ATM I'm stuck on Windows and was thinking about hacking around the `make-symbolic-link' failure. 2014-06-01T20:57:39Z interlocutor joined #lisp 2014-06-01T20:58:01Z Xach: replcated: quicklisp per se does not do that, it's the clhs project that does it. 2014-06-01T20:58:28Z Xach: replcated: i think it is to have a well-known static location to reference, rather than the variable ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/clhs-/ 2014-06-01T20:58:33Z Xach: but i don't know for sure 2014-06-01T20:58:38Z Planet_EN joined #lisp 2014-06-01T20:59:45Z replcated: Xach: Realized that right after I hit enter. Ah, thanks. 2014-06-01T21:00:02Z Planet_EN left #lisp 2014-06-01T21:00:25Z interlocutor quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-01T21:00:53Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-01T21:01:08Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-01T21:01:09Z interlocutor joined #lisp 2014-06-01T21:01:27Z interlocutor quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-01T21:01:51Z interlocutor joined #lisp 2014-06-01T21:05:53Z pnpuff quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-01T21:06:46Z replcated quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-01T21:08:14Z pjb joined #lisp 2014-06-01T21:08:37Z pjb is now known as Guest15866 2014-06-01T21:09:15Z Guest15866 is now known as pjb` 2014-06-01T21:09:27Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2014-06-01T21:10:54Z replcated joined #lisp 2014-06-01T21:11:31Z decent joined #lisp 2014-06-01T21:12:37Z replcated: Looks like a simple: 2014-06-01T21:12:37Z replcated: (let ((quicklisp-clhs-inhibit-symlink-p (eq system-type 'windows-nt))) 2014-06-01T21:12:37Z replcated: (load (expand-file-name "~/quicklisp/clhs-use-local.el") t)) 2014-06-01T21:12:37Z replcated: worked around the symlink breakage. 2014-06-01T21:15:13Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-06-01T21:18:19Z Vivitron quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-01T21:20:10Z ggole quit 2014-06-01T21:20:52Z iAran joined #lisp 2014-06-01T21:21:12Z solidus_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-01T21:21:36Z solidus_ joined #lisp 2014-06-01T21:23:10Z theos quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-01T21:24:14Z theos joined #lisp 2014-06-01T21:24:58Z iAran quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-01T21:27:01Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-06-01T21:27:52Z moore33 joined #lisp 2014-06-01T21:29:15Z dandersen quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-01T21:34:01Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-06-01T21:37:18Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2014-06-01T21:37:57Z Code_Man` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-01T21:41:04Z zy_nulldevice_ma is now known as zygentoma 2014-06-01T21:42:36Z eni quit (Remote host closed the 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2014-06-02T01:48:44Z benkay: the funcall looks like this: 2014-06-02T01:48:51Z benkay: (process-deposits every-ten-minutes) 2014-06-02T01:49:11Z benkay: joy! 2014-06-02T01:49:29Z heddwch: Congratulations? 2014-06-02T01:49:56Z benkay: *shrug* such are not necessary 2014-06-02T01:50:20Z benkay: just sharing the joy i take in writing lisp 2014-06-02T01:50:24Z benkay: find? 2014-06-02T01:52:14Z mueble joined #lisp 2014-06-02T01:53:46Z mueble: hi guys, do you know how can i have different syntax highlight for different kinds of comments in lisp? 2014-06-02T01:53:49Z mueble: in emacs 2014-06-02T01:54:16Z mueble: for instance the normal ;; comment in one color but ;;********** something ********** in a different color 2014-06-02T01:56:19Z lyanchih joined #lisp 2014-06-02T01:58:09Z PuercoPop: mueble: lookup font-lock in the emacs manual, although the question is better suited for #emacs 2014-06-02T01:58:31Z sheilong joined #lisp 2014-06-02T01:58:34Z iAran quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 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I can only find how to destructure alists 2014-06-02T02:09:38Z Bike: (loop for (a b) on list ...) 2014-06-02T02:11:06Z vlnx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-02T02:11:58Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-02T02:13:56Z vlnx joined #lisp 2014-06-02T02:14:10Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-02T02:14:29Z phadthai: also for (a b) on list by #'cddr 2014-06-02T02:14:59Z PuercoPop: Bike that works for alists afaik: http://paste.lisp.org/+325E 2014-06-02T02:15:19Z Bike: PuercoPop: on, not in 2014-06-02T02:15:50Z PuercoPop: ah didn't catch that, thanks 2014-06-02T02:21:53Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-06-02T02:22:12Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-02T02:22:45Z theos joined #lisp 2014-06-02T02:23:26Z emma quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T02:24:14Z emma joined #lisp 2014-06-02T02:25:56Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T02:30:40Z leo2007 joined #lisp 2014-06-02T02:32:53Z zRecursive quit (Remote host 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quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-02T05:25:08Z MjrTom`-` joined #lisp 2014-06-02T05:25:08Z MjrTom quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-02T05:25:15Z MjrTom`-` is now known as MjrTom 2014-06-02T05:25:37Z lyanchih quit (Quit: lyanchih) 2014-06-02T05:26:07Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-06-02T05:29:20Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-02T05:30:18Z KCL_ joined #lisp 2014-06-02T05:31:58Z foreignFunction quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-02T05:33:27Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-02T05:44:01Z joe-w-bimedina joined #lisp 2014-06-02T05:46:31Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2014-06-02T05:47:01Z fe[nl]ix quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2014-06-02T05:49:17Z fe[nl]ix joined #lisp 2014-06-02T05:52:30Z erikc quit (Quit: erikc) 2014-06-02T05:53:09Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T05:58:56Z iAran joined #lisp 2014-06-02T06:03:15Z joe-w-bimedina: I am wrapping several C++ class members in cffi. and Each one of these belongs to a different class but each one is a member named detect. It is important for these wrapped members to be as fast as possible. so using these 2 for example. 1 is from the LineSegmentDetector class one is from the FeatureDetector class, since in C++, using FeatureDetector as example, I would run FeatureDetector fd; to create an instance of the class and fd.de 2014-06-02T06:03:15Z joe-w-bimedina: tect to access the detect member would it be good coding(as far as names are concerned) to instantiate the wrapped class in Lisp like (let ((fd (feature-dector))) and have a function named "detect" with multiple cond clause based on the class type and just call (detect fd), for example, to access the wrapped detect member or just name the functions that wrap the detect member something like feature-detector-detect which ends up being more 2014-06-02T06:03:16Z joe-w-bimedina: typing 2014-06-02T06:10:58Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-06-02T06:14:22Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-02T06:14:59Z KCL_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-02T06:15:21Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-02T06:15:50Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-02T06:15:53Z joe-w-bimedina: I think I would enjoy just typing "detect" ...Less typing helps me think better, Is there a way to call 15 functions by the same name and have each one, presuming they all run at the same speed, be just as fast as the next 2014-06-02T06:16:09Z owl-v- quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-06-02T06:16:13Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: you want to read up on generic functions. 2014-06-02T06:16:51Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: an indirect function call based on an argument type is never going to be running "at the same speed" as a function call that does not dispatch on argument type 2014-06-02T06:17:50Z Okasu joined #lisp 2014-06-02T06:19:07Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-02T06:20:22Z xificurC joined #lisp 2014-06-02T06:20:43Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-02T06:21:28Z moore33 joined #lisp 2014-06-02T06:22:24Z joe-w-bimedina: should only be a like .002 per seconds per though million difference from my experience, I was wondering, concerning these 2 functions, https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/188919179a2fd58ceb3c can yo show me how I would rewrite them using defgenerics and calling by the same name "detect", in a professional way. I've been trying to learn how to write defgenerics but the CFFI types always seem to get in the way somehow 2014-06-02T06:22:55Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: no, i'm sorry. read up on generic functions first. 2014-06-02T06:24:15Z joe-w-bimedina: do you know how I would enter a cffi type into the parameter list, or will defgeneric understand cffi types 2014-06-02T06:24:18Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: and really, you need to learn more lisp before you try to write something that you want to label "professional" 2014-06-02T06:24:31Z owl-v- joined #lisp 2014-06-02T06:24:39Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: (if given-mask nil (del-mat mask)) is so ugly 2014-06-02T06:24:49Z huza joined #lisp 2014-06-02T06:25:31Z joe-w-bimedina: I know alot but , I just have questions on a few things...my tutor showed me that he owns an AI firm...I really trust his opinion 2014-06-02T06:25:49Z joe-w-bimedina: not a bad GC solution in my book 2014-06-02T06:26:07Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: carry on with your learning. generic functions is what you want to read up on if you want to dispatch on argument type. 2014-06-02T06:26:34Z Zhivago: Well, s/type/class/ 2014-06-02T06:26:44Z H4ns: Zhivago: you are right, as usual 2014-06-02T06:27:02Z joe-w-bimedina: s/type/class/? 2014-06-02T06:27:13Z Zhivago: Generic functions dispatch on class rather than type. 2014-06-02T06:27:26Z Zhivago: It's a small but significant point. 2014-06-02T06:28:22Z joe-w-bimedina: that makes a world of difference, thank you, thats what I didn't get 2014-06-02T06:28:39Z bocaneri quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-02T06:28:48Z banjara1 joined #lisp 2014-06-02T06:29:29Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T06:30:05Z banjara quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T06:30:29Z joe-w-bimedina: can you reccomend a good book that will teach defclass/defmethod/defgeneric right from the beginning, my favorite, land of lisp is lacking in that area 2014-06-02T06:30:58Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: read sonya keene's book for a thorough treatment of clos 2014-06-02T06:31:05Z H4ns: minion: tell joe-w-bimedina about keene 2014-06-02T06:31:05Z minion: keene: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/keene 2014-06-02T06:31:15Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-02T06:31:30Z H4ns: well, google will take you to it. 2014-06-02T06:31:45Z joe-w-bimedina: H4ns thank you very very much:) 2014-06-02T06:32:16Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: you will probably also want to read "art of the metaobject protocol" in order to be able to write a good bridge between cl and a c++ library 2014-06-02T06:32:38Z moore33 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-02T06:33:14Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks, I've been looking for a reason to crack that book 2014-06-02T06:33:35Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2014-06-02T06:33:41Z joe-w-bimedina: it is C++ wrapped in C, does that still hold 2014-06-02T06:34:16Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: of course, and you may find out that in the end, you'll never reach a satisfactory solution if you don't have direct c++ support from your foreign language interface 2014-06-02T06:34:39Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-02T06:34:40Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: drmeister is writing a cl implementation with explicit c++ for that reason. 2014-06-02T06:34:49Z H4ns: explicit c++ support 2014-06-02T06:34:58Z mega1 joined #lisp 2014-06-02T06:39:22Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2014-06-02T06:39:38Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm teamed up with writer of the C wrappers, he is well seasoned and guiding the project well so not worried on that.....but as soon as its out(drmeisters) though I'm going try to derive how implementation independent it is. He's a great guy, In your opinion is his code a Great Work that will revolution Lisp. I'm hoping it is. 2014-06-02T06:40:13Z Zhivago: Why would it revolutionize anything? 2014-06-02T06:41:13Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: drmeister is writing a cl implementation. how would it be implementation independent? 2014-06-02T06:42:12Z michael_lee joined #lisp 2014-06-02T06:42:13Z joe-w-bimedina: I though he was a genius or something the way people refer to him, I mean having access to all the C++ libraries in Lisp would be revolutionary. I was talking with him and he said there was an implementation indep. way to use his Lisp 2014-06-02T06:42:31Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: he is just doing the work that he needs to do. 2014-06-02T06:43:51Z joe-w-bimedina: what does that mean precisley "he is just doing the work that he needs to do." 2014-06-02T06:44:37Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: he understood that if he wants good interfacing between c++ and cl, he needs to write a cl implementation that supplies a c++ foreign language interface 2014-06-02T06:45:29Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-02T06:46:54Z joe-w-bimedina: That's great he could just do that, is everybody here going to start using it in there professional environments when it's released trustingly, eg is he that good, or when it's released is gonna just the time to test it out 2014-06-02T06:47:19Z joe-w-bimedina: released, trustingly 2014-06-02T06:47:35Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: nobody is "that good". it takes a few years for a cl compiler to be working well enough for general production use. 2014-06-02T06:47:49Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2014-06-02T06:47:49Z Mon_Ouie quit (Changing host) 2014-06-02T06:47:49Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2014-06-02T06:48:32Z joe-w-bimedina: ok, I wasn't sure, thanks for clarifying 2014-06-02T06:51:17Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-02T06:51:29Z mcsontos joined #lisp 2014-06-02T06:53:31Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-02T06:53:33Z heddwch joined #lisp 2014-06-02T06:55:01Z jewel_ joined #lisp 2014-06-02T06:55:26Z BinaryMcAwesome joined #lisp 2014-06-02T06:56:03Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2014-06-02T06:59:08Z FVG quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-02T07:00:38Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-02T07:02:21Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2014-06-02T07:04:31Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-02T07:05:59Z BinaryMcAwesome quit (Changing host) 2014-06-02T07:05:59Z BinaryMcAwesome joined #lisp 2014-06-02T07:06:30Z DataLinkDroid quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-02T07:07:47Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-02T07:08:50Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-02T07:11:24Z ndrei quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T07:13:37Z zickzackv joined #lisp 2014-06-02T07:14:24Z Sir_herrbatka joined #lisp 2014-06-02T07:14:52Z Sir_herrbatka: good morning everyone 2014-06-02T07:15:54Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-06-02T07:17:10Z FVG_ joined #lisp 2014-06-02T07:17:16Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-02T07:17:45Z FVG_ is now known as buzzy 2014-06-02T07:17:52Z buzzy is now known as bazzie 2014-06-02T07:18:02Z BinaryMcAwesome quit (Quit: Old soldiers never die, they just fade away.) 2014-06-02T07:19:08Z BinaryMcAwesome joined #lisp 2014-06-02T07:19:53Z madist left #lisp 2014-06-02T07:20:41Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-02T07:21:33Z WeirdEnthusiast quit (Quit: EliteBNC free bnc service - 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Also there's Marco Barringer's introductory video which talks about it in some detail 2014-06-02T09:50:05Z ck_: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/ParEdit 2014-06-02T09:51:05Z alpha-: I'll take a look, thanks 2014-06-02T09:52:18Z nostoi quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-06-02T09:55:04Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-06-02T09:57:14Z harish joined #lisp 2014-06-02T09:57:58Z owl-v- quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-06-02T09:58:31Z DataLinkDroid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-02T09:58:45Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-02T09:59:28Z huza quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-02T10:01:15Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-02T10:03:27Z harish joined #lisp 2014-06-02T10:03:36Z banjara1 joined #lisp 2014-06-02T10:04:34Z banjara quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-02T10:05:08Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-02T10:05:45Z ramkrsna quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-02T10:06:40Z dim: hi 2014-06-02T10:07:07Z dim: where is *terminal-io* typically happening when using ./my-lisp-code (with buildapp) and SBCL? 2014-06-02T10:07:26Z dim: I guess the right answer is going to not use *terminal-io* ;-) 2014-06-02T10:07:45Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-02T10:07:46Z hugoduncan joined #lisp 2014-06-02T10:08:30Z DataLinkDroid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-02T10:08:45Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-02T10:11:30Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-02T10:12:37Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-06-02T10:14:59Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-06-02T10:18:33Z noncom joined #lisp 2014-06-02T10:18:43Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2014-06-02T10:23:52Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-02T10:26:00Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-02T10:28:24Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-02T10:28:34Z DataLinkDroid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-02T10:28:47Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-02T10:29:03Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-02T10:38:21Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-02T10:38:32Z DataLinkDroid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-02T10:38:42Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-02T10:41:54Z pnpuff quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T10:43:51Z karupa is now known as zz_karupa 2014-06-02T10:45:05Z bazzie left #lisp 2014-06-02T10:47:21Z axion: is anyone familiar with yason? 2014-06-02T10:47:31Z huza joined #lisp 2014-06-02T10:47:31Z dim: I've been using it already 2014-06-02T10:47:44Z axion: i'm trying to convert an alist containing a double-float to json, but it is converted to s0 2014-06-02T10:47:53Z lyanchih joined #lisp 2014-06-02T10:49:08Z dim: you might be able to provide your own encode method on double-float? 2014-06-02T10:49:29Z axion: hmm 2014-06-02T10:49:31Z dim: or it might a yason bug, in which case H4ns would react 2014-06-02T10:49:38Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2014-06-02T10:50:18Z nipra quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-02T10:51:58Z axion: ah he is the maintainer? i'll wait to see what he says about it, thanks 2014-06-02T10:54:37Z ch077179 joined #lisp 2014-06-02T10:57:23Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-02T11:01:14Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-02T11:02:05Z anler joined #lisp 2014-06-02T11:05:32Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-02T11:05:34Z gigetoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T11:06:16Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2014-06-02T11:06:33Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-06-02T11:06:50Z ustunozg_ joined #lisp 2014-06-02T11:08:30Z DataLinkDroid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-02T11:08:41Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-02T11:09:10Z pnpuff quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T11:09:58Z zwer quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-02T11:10:18Z ustunozgur quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-02T11:10:18Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-02T11:12:07Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-06-02T11:13:08Z ustunoz__ joined #lisp 2014-06-02T11:13:21Z schoppenhauer quit (Quit: Adé) 2014-06-02T11:13:55Z ustuno___ joined #lisp 2014-06-02T11:14:17Z stassats: axion: all javascript has is double floats, so i'm not sure what you mean 2014-06-02T11:15:36Z axion: stassats: '(("a" . 202.61565021514892d0)) => "{\"a\":202.61565}" 2014-06-02T11:16:10Z ustunozg_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-02T11:16:19Z stassats: so, it loses precision 2014-06-02T11:17:32Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2014-06-02T11:18:10Z ustunoz__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-02T11:18:29Z DataLinkDroid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-02T11:18:54Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-02T11:19:35Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2014-06-02T11:20:19Z gadmyth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T11:22:48Z stassats: axion, H4ns : this should do http://paste.lisp.org/display/142756 2014-06-02T11:25:56Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-02T11:25:59Z angavrilov quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T11:27:22Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-02T11:28:36Z DataLinkDroid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-02T11:28:45Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-02T11:28:53Z H4ns: stassats: thanks, that looks sensible 2014-06-02T11:29:02Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2014-06-02T11:29:08Z joe-w-bimedina quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2014-06-02T11:29:22Z H4ns: axion: care to open a pull request with the code? i'm busy right now but will release tonight or tomorrow if i have a patch that applies cleanly. 2014-06-02T11:29:24Z stassats: javascript number types don't looks sensible 2014-06-02T11:29:33Z H4ns: stassats: barring that, of course 2014-06-02T11:29:46Z stassats: or rather "type" 2014-06-02T11:29:56Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-02T11:30:17Z stassats: H4ns: i can open a pull request 2014-06-02T11:30:18Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-02T11:30:20Z stassats: i can't let axion get all the glory 2014-06-02T11:30:22Z H4ns: stassats: thanks! 2014-06-02T11:32:03Z axion: thanks :) 2014-06-02T11:32:15Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-02T11:32:46Z stassats: done 2014-06-02T11:35:09Z kcj quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T11:36:35Z lduros joined #lisp 2014-06-02T11:37:20Z atgreen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T11:38:19Z stassats: and YASON::PARSE-NUMBER uses read-from-string 2014-06-02T11:38:26Z stassats: maybe use the parse-number library? 2014-06-02T11:39:13Z H4ns: make sense, of course. my only excuse for using read-from-string is that yason is from the pre-quicklisp era 2014-06-02T11:39:20Z ustuno___ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-02T11:39:43Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-02T11:39:59Z DataLinkDroid quit (Quit: Disconnecting -- bye) 2014-06-02T11:39:59Z stassats: (yason:parse "1ee") => 1EE 2014-06-02T11:40:40Z ustunozgur quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-02T11:41:04Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-02T11:42:11Z billstclair joined #lisp 2014-06-02T11:42:31Z ustunozgur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T11:42:31Z sg|polyneikes joined #lisp 2014-06-02T11:42:43Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-06-02T11:42:46Z stassats: parse-number could use some error handling enhancements too 2014-06-02T11:42:55Z stassats: (parse-number:parse-number "1+") is SB-INT:SIMPLE-PARSE-ERROR 2014-06-02T11:43:07Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-02T11:43:15Z stassats: "" is "Index 0 out of bounds for (SIMPLE-ARRAY CHARACTER (0)), should be nonnegative and <0." 2014-06-02T11:45:55Z stassats: and i think (yason:parse "-0") should be -0d0 2014-06-02T11:47:23Z ustunozgur quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-02T11:47:24Z billstclair quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com) 2014-06-02T11:47:45Z stassats: and (yason:parse "0x10") => 0, should be 16 2014-06-02T11:47:50Z stassats: and (yason:parse "+10") produces an error 2014-06-02T11:48:16Z H4ns: to sum up, yason can't parse a lot of valid json numbers :/ 2014-06-02T11:49:01Z stassats: and *read-default-float-format* around parse-number should be bound to 'double-float as well 2014-06-02T11:49:18Z lyanchih quit (Quit: lyanchih) 2014-06-02T11:50:27Z momo-reina joined #lisp 2014-06-02T11:50:57Z JuniorRoy joined #lisp 2014-06-02T11:52:09Z Wackadoodle joined #lisp 2014-06-02T11:53:43Z billstclair joined #lisp 2014-06-02T11:55:39Z monod joined #lisp 2014-06-02T11:57:57Z jchochl__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T12:02:09Z Sgeo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-02T12:03:17Z stassats: cl-json can't parse those numbers also 2014-06-02T12:04:42Z dim: (parse-number:parse-number "0x10") --> simple-parse-error, FWIW 2014-06-02T12:05:02Z stassats: that's not legal common lisp syntax 2014-06-02T12:05:21Z stassats: but, the type of the error is bad 2014-06-02T12:05:29Z dim: yeah, #x10 is how to write it in CL, but I read your parse-number comment as "it's solving the problems already" 2014-06-02T12:05:55Z stassats: you'll have to parse -0 and hexadecimals yourself 2014-06-02T12:06:09Z momo-reina quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T12:06:16Z francogrex joined #lisp 2014-06-02T12:06:20Z dim: good thing I only use yason to produce JSON then ;-) (currently) 2014-06-02T12:06:23Z momo-reina joined #lisp 2014-06-02T12:06:46Z stassats: well, it had broken float conversion until now 2014-06-02T12:06:47Z dim: well I also read/parse JSON actually, but only bits that my code is producing, in a client/server setup 2014-06-02T12:07:25Z the8thbit quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T12:07:53Z momo-reina quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T12:08:23Z francogrex quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-02T12:09:57Z stassats: js code is unlikely to produce +10 or 0xA, but human made code can 2014-06-02T12:10:49Z iAran quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-02T12:11:45Z Fizzixnerd joined #lisp 2014-06-02T12:12:50Z Fizzixnerd: okay, so I want to mess around with the readtable -- specifically turning off the auto-capitaliztion within a certain package -- and I want to do it right. I've heard about named readtables. Is there a specific package I should look at for that? Is there anything else I should know about before starting? 2014-06-02T12:14:00Z stassats: named-readtables 2014-06-02T12:14:11Z Fizzixnerd: okay 2014-06-02T12:14:16Z Xach: Reader symbol case management is controlled via http://l1sp.org/cl/readtable-case 2014-06-02T12:14:34Z Fizzixnerd: Excellent, thank you 2014-06-02T12:15:02Z Fizzixnerd: in sbcl, is it possible to refer to symbols in package cl using lower-case symbols btw? 2014-06-02T12:15:09Z Xach: No. 2014-06-02T12:15:15Z stassats: no 2014-06-02T12:15:43Z Fizzixnerd: okay, so I think I'll just use (iter (for symbol in-package :cl)) and then make a new package with the lower case symbols 2014-06-02T12:16:17Z stassats: you can use :invert 2014-06-02T12:16:26Z harish joined #lisp 2014-06-02T12:16:38Z rszeno joined #lisp 2014-06-02T12:16:56Z Fizzixnerd: I want to be able to mix the two in the same code: my own :preserve cased stuff and regular cl stuff 2014-06-02T12:17:17Z Fizzixnerd: and I don't feel like remembering everytime to write in ALL CAPS for cl 2014-06-02T12:17:44Z stassats: :invert can help you 2014-06-02T12:17:58Z stassats: but if you are doing this just to do so, don't bother 2014-06-02T12:18:13Z Fizzixnerd: It's somewhat necessary for the needs of my package 2014-06-02T12:18:29Z Xach: What does your package need? 2014-06-02T12:18:44Z Fizzixnerd: it's a lisp to c translator, super simple 2014-06-02T12:18:49Z Fizzixnerd: I know things like that exist already 2014-06-02T12:18:52Z Fizzixnerd: I just want to make my own 2014-06-02T12:19:09Z Fizzixnerd: but I need to be able to refer to null and NULL as c identifiers 2014-06-02T12:19:18Z Fizzixnerd: and the c identifiers are mapped to lisp symbols 2014-06-02T12:19:48Z Fizzixnerd: so I need to preserve case for the C stuff, but I want cl stuff so that I can have macros too 2014-06-02T12:20:20Z Fizzixnerd: ignoring the foolishness of yet-another-c-in-lisp package, does my plan sound reasonable? 2014-06-02T12:20:42Z Fizzixnerd: or should I look more into :invert? 2014-06-02T12:20:47Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-06-02T12:21:17Z stassats: invert both preserves the case and makes it easy to interfaces with the CL package 2014-06-02T12:21:23Z stassats: you just have to invert back same-case symbols in your conversion 2014-06-02T12:21:27Z splittist: Fizzixnerd: are there are other c keywords/symbols that will be incompatible with lisp? 2014-06-02T12:22:12Z Fizzixnerd: splitist: I need to be able to distinguish between, say, the function name "printf" and the preprocessor macro EXIT_SUCCESS without already knowing what they are 2014-06-02T12:22:17Z stassats: with invert: AbCdE => AbCdE, ABCDE => abcde, abcde => ABCDE 2014-06-02T12:22:23Z stassats: so, it's a reversible process 2014-06-02T12:23:01Z stassats: preprocessor macros can be lower case 2014-06-02T12:23:18Z Fizzixnerd: I'm aware, but the ones defined in the standard library aren't always. 2014-06-02T12:23:25Z Fizzixnerd: for example, EXIT_SUCCESS 2014-06-02T12:23:52Z Fizzixnerd: I have to at the very least be able to interface with the c stdlib 2014-06-02T12:24:56Z Fizzixnerd: I'm not sure :invert helps me here 2014-06-02T12:25:28Z Fizzixnerd: :preserve is more what I want 2014-06-02T12:25:46Z Fizzixnerd: but I want to be able to use cl symbols without remembering to write them in capital letters 2014-06-02T12:27:17Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T12:27:29Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-02T12:27:52Z YDJX joined #lisp 2014-06-02T12:28:26Z Fizzixnerd: So I was thinking of using wrapper macros and defvars to lower-cased version of the cl symbols 2014-06-02T12:28:41Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-02T12:28:52Z ramkrsna quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-02T12:30:25Z Fizzixnerd: unless I don't understand something about the reader, it seems like it would be a pain to keep switchign the casing of the readtable 2014-06-02T12:31:19Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-06-02T12:31:44Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T12:31:51Z stassats: :invert preserves the case 2014-06-02T12:32:30Z Fizzixnerd: if I define a function blah it looks like (defun blah ((i :int)) (:void) (return)) 2014-06-02T12:32:40Z Fizzixnerd: if I had invert on, I would define instea a funtion BLAH 2014-06-02T12:32:59Z Fizzixnerd: that is, IN C. 2014-06-02T12:33:24Z stassats: it's easy, don't put it into C like that 2014-06-02T12:33:25Z Fizzixnerd: This is not what I want 2014-06-02T12:33:58Z Fizzixnerd: I think you're right 2014-06-02T12:34:06Z Fizzixnerd: I'm starting to see how this would work 2014-06-02T12:34:16Z Fizzixnerd: thank you for your patience, I'll try it 2014-06-02T12:34:57Z malkomalko joined #lisp 2014-06-02T12:35:03Z axion: stassats: thanks, that fix worked. 2014-06-02T12:36:55Z pranavrc quit 2014-06-02T12:37:31Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-02T12:37:59Z Fizzixnerd: Is the sbcl debugger bad, or am I just bad at using it? comparing it to something like gdb 2014-06-02T12:38:07Z theos joined #lisp 2014-06-02T12:38:35Z H4ns: Fizzixnerd: it is not bad. what is your problem with it? 2014-06-02T12:38:48Z Fizzixnerd: I can't read the backtraces at all 2014-06-02T12:38:54Z ivan4th joined #lisp 2014-06-02T12:39:02Z H4ns: Fizzixnerd: well, you need to use your eyes. 2014-06-02T12:39:11Z Fizzixnerd: I call like 4 functions, and it shows me the entire implementation of SBCL in a backtrace 2014-06-02T12:39:40Z Fizzixnerd: That might be useful to maintainers of SBCL, but I'd prefer less verbosity 2014-06-02T12:39:44Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-06-02T12:40:12Z splittist: Fizzixnerd: then stop reading when it leaves your program (: 2014-06-02T12:40:42Z Fizzixnerd: A verbosity switch would be a better solution imo 2014-06-02T12:40:54Z Fizzixnerd: when I have 50 frames to go through 2014-06-02T12:41:01Z Fizzixnerd: and 24 of them start with swank 2014-06-02T12:41:04Z stassats: gdb will show you the same thing 2014-06-02T12:41:16Z Fizzixnerd: swank isn't sbcl's fault 2014-06-02T12:41:20Z Fizzixnerd: I'm not saying it is 2014-06-02T12:41:33Z stassats: slime hides all the swank frames 2014-06-02T12:41:45Z H4ns: Fizzixnerd: you are entitled to your opinion, of course. often, the real nature of a problem is only visible deeper in the call chain when the actual value is accessed 2014-06-02T12:42:08Z Fizzixnerd: H4ns: I suppose you're right 2014-06-02T12:42:17Z stassats: if you set swank-backend:*debug-swank-backend* to T, then it's your fault 2014-06-02T12:42:17Z Fizzixnerd: stassats: do I need to setq something for that to happen? 2014-06-02T12:42:30Z Fizzixnerd: I did not do that 2014-06-02T12:42:37Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T12:43:16Z theos joined #lisp 2014-06-02T12:43:49Z Fizzixnerd: Okay, the consensus is that I'm just bad at the debugger 2014-06-02T12:43:56Z Fizzixnerd: I'll spend a day soon looking at docs and learning how to use it 2014-06-02T12:44:44Z stassats: maybe by top you mean the bottom 2014-06-02T12:44:50Z stassats: then just don't look where you are not supposed to look 2014-06-02T12:45:02Z Fizzixnerd: I do mean bottom 2014-06-02T12:45:10Z Fizzixnerd: because I'm an idiot and forget how stacks work 2014-06-02T12:45:23Z Fizzixnerd: in my defense, the bottom is shown at the top 2014-06-02T12:45:51Z Fizzixnerd: the swank stuff is mainly a problem when I eval with C-e 2014-06-02T12:45:58Z Fizzixnerd: r 2014-06-02T12:45:58Z Fizzixnerd: er 2014-06-02T12:46:02Z Fizzixnerd: C-x C-e 2014-06-02T12:46:15Z stassats: if it's at the top, then it's the top 2014-06-02T12:46:20Z stassats: right, just don't use C-x C-e 2014-06-02T12:46:40Z Fizzixnerd: I guess that's more emacs/swanks fault anyways 2014-06-02T12:46:43Z Fizzixnerd: not sblc 2014-06-02T12:46:45Z Fizzixnerd: sbcl 2014-06-02T12:46:45Z stassats: do the same in the repl and see the difference 2014-06-02T12:47:15Z stassats: ah, no, C-x C-e shows the same thing, i was still comparing it with (setf swank-backend:*debug-swank-backend* t) 2014-06-02T12:47:24Z Fizzixnerd: it does? 2014-06-02T12:47:35Z Fizzixnerd: even when you fuck something up? 2014-06-02T12:47:47Z stassats: so, you are doing something odious or not telling me something 2014-06-02T12:47:53Z stassats: or your screen is upside donw 2014-06-02T12:48:07Z Fizzixnerd: isn't the top frame the bottom of the call stack? 2014-06-02T12:48:17Z stassats: (/ 0) C-x C-e => 0: (SB-KERNEL::INTEGER-/-INTEGER 1 0) 1: (/ 0) 2014-06-02T12:48:55Z Fizzixnerd: yeah, frame 0 is the bottom of the stack 2014-06-02T12:49:17Z stassats: Fizzixnerd: that depends on which direction the stack grows, but it's still referred as the top in either case 2014-06-02T12:49:52Z Fizzixnerd: I've always heard of "calls higher up in the stack" 2014-06-02T12:49:57Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-06-02T12:50:05Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-02T12:50:09Z Fizzixnerd: to mean calls which haven't yet returned 2014-06-02T12:50:15Z jdz: that would be "deeper in the stack" 2014-06-02T12:50:22Z cmack quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T12:50:23Z the8thbit joined #lisp 2014-06-02T12:50:29Z Fizzixnerd: hmmm 2014-06-02T12:50:37Z Fizzixnerd: I think different people put it different ways 2014-06-02T12:50:46Z stassats: on many platforms, the C stack grows downward 2014-06-02T12:50:51Z splittist: up the call chain and down the stack? 2014-06-02T12:50:52Z stassats: on x86oids, SBCL control stack grows downward, but on other platforms it grows upward 2014-06-02T12:51:01Z jdz: but as stassats says, top is where the PUSH puts stuff 2014-06-02T12:51:15Z jdz: and POP pops off of 2014-06-02T12:51:17Z stassats: so, many people are just x86-centric 2014-06-02T12:51:27Z Fizzixnerd: I guess that's what's happened then 2014-06-02T12:51:39Z Fizzixnerd: sorry for the pointless diversion 2014-06-02T12:51:48Z Fizzixnerd: on the other hand 2014-06-02T12:51:50Z Fizzixnerd: we are in #lisp 2014-06-02T12:51:58Z krrrcks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-02T12:52:09Z eigenlicht quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T12:52:18Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-02T12:52:19Z stassats: no, it's a perfectly good discussion for #lisp 2014-06-02T12:53:02Z stassats: Fizzixnerd: so, what error is problematic? 2014-06-02T12:53:18Z Fizzixnerd: that was just a general thing, I don't actually have an error at the moment 2014-06-02T12:53:20Z stassats: there may be a bug in swank/sbcl with stack top hints 2014-06-02T12:53:32Z Fizzixnerd: let me see if I can make one 2014-06-02T12:54:21Z iAran joined #lisp 2014-06-02T12:54:24Z Fizzixnerd: it ususually happens with generic functions, iirc 2014-06-02T12:54:34Z Fizzixnerd: I get like 15 frames of generic function machinary 2014-06-02T12:54:55Z the8thbit quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-02T12:55:46Z monod quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-02T12:56:17Z stassats: do you want the debugger to lie to you? 2014-06-02T12:57:10Z Fizzixnerd: also, it WILL print line numbers on syntax errors, I found out 2014-06-02T12:57:19Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2014-06-02T12:57:20Z Fizzixnerd: if anyone remembers that discussion from 4 days ago 2014-06-02T12:58:18Z Fizzixnerd: I guess I'm just dumb 2014-06-02T12:58:22Z stassats: that's only for reader errors 2014-06-02T12:58:25Z Fizzixnerd: yeah 2014-06-02T12:59:25Z Fizzixnerd: but it means that sbcl knows how to find lines if it needs to 2014-06-02T12:59:44Z Fizzixnerd: I wish it did that more often tbf 2014-06-02T12:59:47Z stassats: during the reader process, it's easy 2014-06-02T13:00:21Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-02T13:00:44Z Fizzixnerd: why can gdb tell me the column number I fucked up at, but common-lisp only knows the name of the form? 2014-06-02T13:00:57Z Fizzixnerd: that's what I don't get 2014-06-02T13:01:31Z Fizzixnerd: having the editor jump to the exact line the error happened at is handy 2014-06-02T13:01:34Z stassats: for things that gdb can give you the number line, sbcl will direct you too 2014-06-02T13:01:45Z Fizzixnerd: really? 2014-06-02T13:02:14Z Fizzixnerd: so sbcl can list the code around the current frame failure, printing line numbers and source code file name with it? 2014-06-02T13:02:15Z stassats: it's usually in the form of offsets and form numbers, but in slime it's easy, you just press "v" on the frame 2014-06-02T13:02:24Z Fizzixnerd: oh shit 2014-06-02T13:02:27Z Fizzixnerd: must l2debug 2014-06-02T13:02:48Z jdz: Fizzixnerd: must learn to C-h m 2014-06-02T13:02:58Z Fizzixnerd: ikr 2014-06-02T13:03:04Z jdz: word 2014-06-02T13:03:52Z Fizzixnerd: okay here 2014-06-02T13:04:02Z Fizzixnerd: (let ((x "shit)) (car x)) 2014-06-02T13:04:05Z Fizzixnerd: what do you see? 2014-06-02T13:04:06Z Fizzixnerd: I see 2014-06-02T13:04:14Z Xach: A missing double-quote 2014-06-02T13:04:15Z Fizzixnerd: 0: (SB-C::%COMPILE-TIME-TYPE-ERROR ("shit") LIST # ((CAR X) X)) 2014-06-02T13:04:16Z Fizzixnerd: 1: ((LAMBDA ())) 2014-06-02T13:04:16Z Fizzixnerd: 2: (SB-INT:SIMPLE-EVAL-IN-LEXENV (LET ((X "shit")) (CAR X)) #) 2014-06-02T13:04:19Z Fizzixnerd: 3: (EVAL (LET ((X "shit")) (CAR X))) 2014-06-02T13:04:19Z Fizzixnerd: 4: ((LAMBDA NIL :IN SWANK:INTERACTIVE-EVAL)) 2014-06-02T13:04:21Z stassats: that's during compilation 2014-06-02T13:04:22Z Fizzixnerd: 2014-06-02T13:04:26Z Fizzixnerd: er 2014-06-02T13:04:29Z Fizzixnerd: with the double quote 2014-06-02T13:04:31Z stassats: gdb doesn't compile things either 2014-06-02T13:04:48Z Fizzixnerd: ((x "shit"))** 2014-06-02T13:05:15Z Fizzixnerd: my point is, where do I press v to jump to the error? 2014-06-02T13:06:17Z Fizzixnerd: ah shit, I bet I did C-x C-e 2014-06-02T13:06:46Z stassats: you are using an anonymous function 2014-06-02T13:07:00Z stassats: but you can press v on that ((LAMBDA ())) anyway 2014-06-02T13:07:17Z Fizzixnerd: you'rer right 2014-06-02T13:07:33Z Fizzixnerd: I just thought the lambda() was nothing special and ignored it 2014-06-02T13:07:49Z stassats: but if you define a function with that form, you will get the desired result 2014-06-02T13:08:01Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T13:08:10Z Fizzixnerd: no, you're totally right 2014-06-02T13:08:27Z stassats: but with debug 2, even V on lambda will work 2014-06-02T13:08:42Z Fizzixnerd: yup 2014-06-02T13:08:45Z sroy_ joined #lisp 2014-06-02T13:08:55Z Fizzixnerd: I just had no idea ((lambda ())) meant "the code you tried" 2014-06-02T13:10:08Z momo-reina joined #lisp 2014-06-02T13:10:54Z Fizzixnerd: you guys are awesome 2014-06-02T13:11:32Z jdz: never trust your first impressions 2014-06-02T13:11:45Z Fizzixnerd: I try not to 2014-06-02T13:11:54Z Fizzixnerd: If I trusted them, I wouldn't have asked 2014-06-02T13:12:17Z stassats: i put (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'debug 2) into my .sbclrc 2014-06-02T13:12:18Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-02T13:12:21Z Fizzixnerd: even my original question was "am I ignorant, or is this actually as bad as it seems to me" 2014-06-02T13:12:45Z Fizzixnerd: is that a good idea for someone like me? 2014-06-02T13:13:03Z stassats: yes 2014-06-02T13:13:20Z stassats: it may disable TCO, but who needs that 2014-06-02T13:13:24Z juanlas joined #lisp 2014-06-02T13:13:25Z Fizzixnerd: any other helpful lines that is in there? 2014-06-02T13:13:34Z Fizzixnerd: that should be in there* 2014-06-02T13:13:47Z stassats: some time in the near feature 'debug 2 won't disable TCO, and still have restartable frames 2014-06-02T13:14:06Z Fizzixnerd: does debug 2 not have restartable frames? 2014-06-02T13:14:14Z jdz: Fizzixnerd: i also have (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'safety 1) in there, because some people thing that (safety 0) is a good thing 2014-06-02T13:14:20Z stassats: that's what prevents TCO 2014-06-02T13:14:22Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-02T13:14:25Z Fizzixnerd: ah 2014-06-02T13:14:45Z stassats: the current implementation of it 2014-06-02T13:14:59Z Fizzixnerd: jdz: thanks; added 2014-06-02T13:15:00Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2014-06-02T13:15:25Z Fizzixnerd: do you guys load a core, or start sbcl fresh each time you run it in slime? 2014-06-02T13:15:28Z axion: is there some way to compare floats without the same type? (< 2.1 2.1d0), for example 2014-06-02T13:15:34Z axion: err >= 2014-06-02T13:16:25Z theos joined #lisp 2014-06-02T13:16:48Z momo-reina quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T13:16:54Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-02T13:16:58Z jdz: axion: did nobody tell you not to compare floating points for equality? 2014-06-02T13:17:28Z stassats: (= 1d0 1f0) => T 2014-06-02T13:17:31Z Fizzixnerd: http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19957-01/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html 2014-06-02T13:17:48Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2014-06-02T13:17:50Z Fizzixnerd: axion, read that if you haven't 2014-06-02T13:18:45Z axion: i read it a while ago and realized i am not a computer scientist 2014-06-02T13:21:14Z stassats: 2.1 and 2.1d0 just do not represent the same number 2014-06-02T13:22:16Z stassats: (float 2.1 1d0) => 2.0999999046325684d0 2014-06-02T13:22:30Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-06-02T13:23:26Z Fizzixnerd: (type-f 2.1) => single-float 2014-06-02T13:23:36Z Fizzixnerd: (type-of 2.1d0) => double-float 2014-06-02T13:23:41Z Fizzixnerd: more precision 2014-06-02T13:23:51Z Fizzixnerd: means that they can't be equal 2014-06-02T13:23:57Z stassats: the can be equal 2014-06-02T13:24:01Z Fizzixnerd: can they? 2014-06-02T13:24:03Z stassats: if they represent the same number 2014-06-02T13:24:05Z Fizzixnerd: well shit nevermind 2014-06-02T13:24:32Z stassats: but different precision means that they can't always represent the same numbers 2014-06-02T13:25:01Z stassats: (= 1d0 1f0) => T, (= 1.1d0 1.1f0) => NIL 2014-06-02T13:26:07Z axion: ok i have a precise "account balance" as x.yyyyyyyy. i have a function which subtracts from this balance given an amount as a string (api restriction), but want a condition to only subtract if the string-represented number is less than or equal to the balance, as to not give a negative balance 2014-06-02T13:26:22Z Fizzixnerd: DO NOT USE FLOATS FOR MONEY 2014-06-02T13:26:26Z axion: it is not money 2014-06-02T13:26:30Z Fizzixnerd: then nvm 2014-06-02T13:26:32Z stassats: USE FLOATS FOR MONEY IF THAT MEANS YOU GET MORE MONEY 2014-06-02T13:26:40Z Fizzixnerd: lol 2014-06-02T13:26:50Z stassats: minion: chant 2014-06-02T13:26:50Z minion: MORE MONEY 2014-06-02T13:27:05Z Fizzixnerd: but still, it should be using fixed point numbers anyways 2014-06-02T13:27:10Z Fizzixnerd: if the number of y's is known 2014-06-02T13:27:18Z axion: y's is always 8 digits 2014-06-02T13:27:26Z Fizzixnerd: is this bitcoin? 2014-06-02T13:27:32Z stassats: in CL, you can just use rationals and forget about it 2014-06-02T13:27:35Z axion: yes 2014-06-02T13:27:43Z Fizzixnerd: then it is money... 2014-06-02T13:28:00Z malkomalko quit 2014-06-02T13:28:07Z axion: i'll go back to my rpevious implemtnation of storing as ints 2014-06-02T13:28:20Z axion: but this api is evil 2014-06-02T13:28:23Z fortitude joined #lisp 2014-06-02T13:28:23Z Fizzixnerd: use rationals, like stassats said 2014-06-02T13:28:50Z axion: api expects a json real 2014-06-02T13:28:51Z Fizzixnerd: if you really want to, wrap it in a class with print-object being the formated decimal form 2014-06-02T13:28:59Z stassats: Fizzixnerd: so, when you're in court for tax evasion, and will deny that bitcoin is money, they will printout the #lisp log 2014-06-02T13:29:18Z Fizzixnerd: I don't plan to evade my taxes with bitcoin 2014-06-02T13:29:21Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-02T13:29:54Z stassats: "a-ha, you plan to evade them with something else!" 2014-06-02T13:30:00Z Fizzixnerd: hehe 2014-06-02T13:30:14Z Fizzixnerd: but yeah, axion, a wrapper class with slot (rational-value) 2014-06-02T13:30:21Z Fizzixnerd: and a print-object method 2014-06-02T13:30:24Z Fizzixnerd: sounds like what you want 2014-06-02T13:30:30Z stassats: for maximum confusion 2014-06-02T13:30:47Z stassats: "why does this thing print as a float, but is not a float?" 2014-06-02T13:31:02Z Fizzixnerd: "because lazy" 2014-06-02T13:31:14Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-06-02T13:31:25Z Fizzixnerd: that's how my C statements work 2014-06-02T13:31:41Z gendl joined #lisp 2014-06-02T13:31:48Z Fizzixnerd: they just recursively print themselves with print-objects 2014-06-02T13:31:54Z Fizzixnerd: because lazy 2014-06-02T13:31:56Z stassats: is that similar to "i found it on stackoverflow?" 2014-06-02T13:32:15Z stassats: that's how i do Java 2014-06-02T13:32:28Z Fizzixnerd: it sounds like he is writing a CL wrapper for BTC-e or something 2014-06-02T13:32:34Z Fizzixnerd: which means literally nobody but him is going to use it 2014-06-02T13:33:02Z Xach: That is the case for almost all software all the time. 2014-06-02T13:33:18Z Fizzixnerd: so then document the printing behavior in the class, and move on 2014-06-02T13:33:42Z Fizzixnerd: no need to make it super "obvious" what's happening when print-object is being used for it's literal purpose 2014-06-02T13:33:50Z Fizzixnerd: which is to print a string _representation_ of the object 2014-06-02T13:34:08Z Fizzixnerd: I'm probably wrong 2014-06-02T13:34:13Z Fizzixnerd: inb4 stassats counterexample 2014-06-02T13:34:28Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-02T13:35:10Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-02T13:37:46Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-02T13:38:17Z lyanchih joined #lisp 2014-06-02T13:42:17Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-02T13:42:22Z Johannes` joined #lisp 2014-06-02T13:42:29Z Johannes` left #lisp 2014-06-02T13:43:07Z sg|polyneikes quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T13:43:46Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-02T13:46:52Z scopes joined #lisp 2014-06-02T13:48:07Z iAran quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-02T13:49:20Z varjag quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-02T13:50:33Z H4ns: stassats: json is not defined to support "+0" or "0x123" 2014-06-02T13:50:46Z stassats: ok then 2014-06-02T13:50:48Z H4ns: stassats: at least according to my reading of www.json.org 2014-06-02T13:51:02Z stassats: i was reading the javascript spec 2014-06-02T13:51:20Z stassats: and -0? 2014-06-02T13:51:29Z H4ns: stassats: that should work. 2014-06-02T13:51:41Z H4ns: although i'm not sure what it would actually mean :) 2014-06-02T13:52:15Z stassats: should become -0d0 2014-06-02T13:52:19Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-02T13:52:25Z Fizzixnerd: stassats: your suggestion for the readtable totally worked. Thank you 2014-06-02T13:52:54Z zacharias quit (Quit: Bye!) 2014-06-02T13:52:57Z stassats: like (yason:parse "-0.0") => -0.0 2014-06-02T13:53:15Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-02T13:53:17Z stassats: except that that should be -0d0 too 2014-06-02T13:53:19Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-06-02T13:53:22Z H4ns: stassats: ok, i'll see whether i can motivate myself to get that fixed. 2014-06-02T13:54:18Z ramkrsna quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T13:56:11Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-02T13:57:46Z oGMo: yeah json is ridiculously limited ;P 2014-06-02T13:58:00Z oleo: orly ? 2014-06-02T13:58:19Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-02T13:58:56Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-06-02T13:59:20Z tinyblak_ joined #lisp 2014-06-02T13:59:36Z axion: hmm, seems the reverse needs to be fixed as well 2014-06-02T14:00:13Z axion: json storing a double-float returned from an api (no control over the data) converted to an alist results in lost precision 2014-06-02T14:00:56Z stassats: that's what i mentioned above 2014-06-02T14:01:11Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-02T14:01:27Z Fizzixnerd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T14:01:53Z oGMo: hrm, ieee-floats doesn't seem to recognize -0d0 2014-06-02T14:02:14Z oGMo: or rather, the sign doesn't survive its encoding 2014-06-02T14:02:29Z stassats: not so ieee, now 2014-06-02T14:02:33Z theos joined #lisp 2014-06-02T14:02:48Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-02T14:03:46Z stassats: it uses ZEROP 2014-06-02T14:03:55Z oGMo: heh 2014-06-02T14:04:00Z oGMo: i wonder who maintains that 2014-06-02T14:04:47Z oGMo files an issue on github 2014-06-02T14:05:56Z sg|polyneikes joined #lisp 2014-06-02T14:06:50Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-02T14:07:02Z lambda` joined #lisp 2014-06-02T14:09:16Z axion: stassats: is there an easy fix for the reverse op? 2014-06-02T14:09:44Z stassats: axion: yes, just bind *read-default-float-format* to 'double in parse-number 2014-06-02T14:11:17Z stassats: *read-default-float-format* is a misnomer 2014-06-02T14:11:47Z stassats: the _read_ part, since it affects printing too 2014-06-02T14:12:17Z malice quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-02T14:13:16Z stassats: *default-float-format* could affect things like (sqrt 1) too 2014-06-02T14:15:40Z axion: excellent 2014-06-02T14:15:44Z axion: understood, yes 2014-06-02T14:16:14Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-06-02T14:16:58Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-02T14:17:53Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-02T14:19:45Z monod joined #lisp 2014-06-02T14:25:17Z kcj quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T14:26:37Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T14:26:39Z eudoxia quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-02T14:27:19Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-06-02T14:30:59Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 2014-06-02T14:31:28Z juanlas joined #lisp 2014-06-02T14:32:24Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T14:33:06Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-06-02T14:33:36Z monod quit (Quit: Quit) 2014-06-02T14:34:11Z McMAGIC-1Copy joined #lisp 2014-06-02T14:34:21Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-02T14:34:39Z McMAGIC--Copy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T14:36:08Z gingerale joined #lisp 2014-06-02T14:36:35Z segv- joined #lisp 2014-06-02T14:39:12Z xenophon joined #lisp 2014-06-02T14:40:33Z banjara1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-02T14:40:47Z xenophon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T14:44:44Z pjb: dim: *terminal-io* is normally bound to the terminal. My reading of the CLHS is that it should be /dev/tty as much as possible. All the other CL streams may redirect to *terminal-io*; *standard-output*/*standard-input*/*error-output* may redirect to /dev/stdout, /dev/stdin and /dev/stderr, which may further be redirected from the system (when you use shell > < 2>). *query-io* may be redirected to *terminal-io* or to some other 2014-06-02T14:44:44Z pjb: interactive mechanism (eg. a GUI dialog). 2014-06-02T14:45:40Z findiggle joined #lisp 2014-06-02T14:46:03Z dim: yeah the problem is about shell redirects, I didn't find in a very quick try how to steal the *terminal-io* output 2014-06-02T14:46:19Z dim: the *standard-output* and *error-output* are quite easy to divert of course 2014-06-02T14:46:22Z stassats: change it to something else 2014-06-02T14:46:39Z pjb: The point of *terminal-io* is that you cannot redirect it. 2014-06-02T14:46:49Z pjb: For example, it's where you'd like to read a password, not stdin. 2014-06-02T14:46:58Z stassats: dim: (setf *terminal-io* (make-two-way-stream *standard-input* *standard-output*)) 2014-06-02T14:47:13Z pjb: If you write a command such as: crypt crypted # you still want to read the password on the terminal. 2014-06-02T14:47:32Z dim: stassats: oh I've just picked *terminal-io* for what might be wrong reasons, that's the real question here 2014-06-02T14:48:01Z dim: pjb: thanks, I get it 2014-06-02T14:48:23Z dim: so I might have been ill advised (by myself) to use *terminal-io* to report pgloader activities at the end of a run 2014-06-02T14:48:29Z pjb: stassats: you cannot do that: *standatd-input* and *standatd-output* may be redirected to *terminal-io* so you will break. "The effect of changing the value of *terminal-io*, either by binding or assignment, is implementation-defined." 2014-06-02T14:48:40Z huza quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2014-06-02T14:48:56Z stassats: if it's implementation-defined, than i can do it 2014-06-02T14:48:57Z pjb: dim: probably. Better use *standard-output*, *error-output* or *trace-output*. 2014-06-02T14:49:04Z pjb: stassats: not conformingly. 2014-06-02T14:49:12Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T14:49:14Z pjb: not with a tons of #+implementation 2014-06-02T14:49:53Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-06-02T14:50:24Z dim: yeah I should probably have a specific cl-log messenger for ERROR/FATAL that targets stderr, and use stdout for the reporting and "normal chatter" (LOG/INFO/DEBUG etc) 2014-06-02T14:50:27Z dim: will revise 2014-06-02T14:55:46Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-02T14:56:50Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-02T15:03:48Z Fizzixnerd joined #lisp 2014-06-02T15:04:09Z ustunozgur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T15:04:14Z Fizzixnerd: is there a named-printcase package as well? 2014-06-02T15:04:44Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-02T15:05:26Z varjag_ joined #lisp 2014-06-02T15:08:15Z dlowe: maybe there should just be a named-reader-settings library 2014-06-02T15:08:17Z gendl quit (Quit: gendl) 2014-06-02T15:08:36Z Fizzixnerd: well, I guess technically print-case is part of the "printer" 2014-06-02T15:08:48Z Fizzixnerd: named-io-settings? 2014-06-02T15:08:58Z ustunozgur quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-02T15:09:08Z Fizzixnerd: named-rp-settings? 2014-06-02T15:09:37Z Fizzixnerd: I'm pretty close to not giving a shit and just doing it the bad way 2014-06-02T15:10:08Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T15:10:14Z stassats: do you have a problem binding *readtable*? 2014-06-02T15:10:26Z Fizzixnerd: I meant for *print-case*. 2014-06-02T15:10:38Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-02T15:10:39Z Denommus quit (Changing host) 2014-06-02T15:10:39Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-02T15:10:56Z stassats: ok, do you have a problem binding *print-case*, that's what i meant to, until dlowe came in and confused things 2014-06-02T15:10:58Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T15:11:06Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T15:11:41Z Fizzixnerd: I don't know how to do it in a package-local way 2014-06-02T15:11:58Z splittist: Fizzixnerd: how many of the symbols in a file will be C symbols, and how many lisp symbols? Will the C 2014-06-02T15:12:05Z dlowe: sorry, I was just thinking out loud 2014-06-02T15:12:10Z splittist: 'symbols' appear in particular places? 2014-06-02T15:12:19Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-06-02T15:12:29Z stassats: Fizzixnerd: you should care about its extent, just bind it where you want to print things that way 2014-06-02T15:12:49Z splittist: Fizzixnerd: what were you going to do with || and & etc.? 2014-06-02T15:12:49Z Fizzixnerd: I guess stassats is right 2014-06-02T15:13:02Z Fizzixnerd: or and band respectively 2014-06-02T15:13:17Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-02T15:13:24Z stassats: band? 2014-06-02T15:13:28Z Fizzixnerd: binary and 2014-06-02T15:13:37Z Fizzixnerd: or bitwise 2014-06-02T15:13:38Z Fizzixnerd: I gues 2014-06-02T15:13:47Z splittist: bor? 2014-06-02T15:13:48Z stassats: is that what C calls it? 2014-06-02T15:13:49Z splittist: orb? 2014-06-02T15:13:52Z Fizzixnerd: bor 2014-06-02T15:14:12Z Fizzixnerd: C calls it &, but I'm not sure how to make & be seen as a regular character atm 2014-06-02T15:14:17Z Fizzixnerd: so I just called it band for now 2014-06-02T15:14:34Z stassats: & is a regular character 2014-06-02T15:14:51Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-02T15:14:52Z stassats: (defun & (&rest args) (apply #'logand args)) 2014-06-02T15:14:55Z Fizzixnerd: right 2014-06-02T15:14:58Z Fizzixnerd: I meant && 2014-06-02T15:15:01Z Fizzixnerd: I think 2014-06-02T15:15:08Z Fizzixnerd: or maybe I'm just wrong 2014-06-02T15:15:17Z stassats: (defun && (&rest args) (apply #'logand args)) 2014-06-02T15:15:18Z Denommus: you can also make (defun && ...) 2014-06-02T15:15:21Z stassats: (&& #xFF -1) => 255 2014-06-02T15:15:24Z Fizzixnerd: well then 2014-06-02T15:15:31Z Fizzixnerd: excuse me while I change a couple things 2014-06-02T15:15:33Z Denommus: stassats: && is #'and, not #'logand 2014-06-02T15:15:43Z splittist: ?: 2014-06-02T15:15:52Z Fizzixnerd: ?: I just called tern 2014-06-02T15:15:58Z Denommus: wait, and is not a function 2014-06-02T15:16:11Z Denommus: Fizzixnerd: ?: is just if :P 2014-06-02T15:16:14Z stassats: (defun || (&rest args) (apply #'logior args)) 2014-06-02T15:16:20Z stassats: (|| #xFF -1) => -1 2014-06-02T15:16:31Z stassats: clever, huh? 2014-06-02T15:16:34Z Fizzixnerd: denommus: the layer of the c-in-common-lisp I'm working on is an isomorphism tm 2014-06-02T15:16:52Z Fizzixnerd: atm* 2014-06-02T15:17:08Z Fizzixnerd: and clever indeed 2014-06-02T15:17:20Z Fizzixnerd: but what about ?: ? 2014-06-02T15:17:33Z pjb: (defmacro && (&rest exprs) `(and ,@exprs)) 2014-06-02T15:17:39Z splittist: Fizzixnerd: are you planning on catching bad c vrbl names, like keywords and things in kebab-case? 2014-06-02T15:17:46Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-02T15:17:50Z pjb: and similarly for \|\| 2014-06-02T15:17:57Z Fizzixnerd: splittist: eventually, not right now 2014-06-02T15:18:16Z stassats: while & will work, | can't use the same trick 2014-06-02T15:18:27Z stassats: pjb: you don't need escaping 2014-06-02T15:18:30Z Fizzixnerd: vindication! 2014-06-02T15:18:30Z pjb: But before trying to use C's operators you should learn C! 2014-06-02T15:18:34Z Fizzixnerd: I knew one of them didn't work 2014-06-02T15:18:40Z Fizzixnerd: who me? 2014-06-02T15:18:45Z pjb: stassats: you can use a symbol whose name is the empty string, yes. 2014-06-02T15:18:46Z stassats: \| will work 2014-06-02T15:18:46Z Fizzixnerd: I know C pretty well 2014-06-02T15:18:59Z pjb: \| and \|\| are not the same C operator. 2014-06-02T15:19:11Z Fizzixnerd: I am aware of that 2014-06-02T15:19:14Z pjb: Fizzixnerd: if you accept stassats && then you don't know C. 2014-06-02T15:19:38Z Fizzixnerd: pjb: && is the logical and of C. & is the bitwise one. 2014-06-02T15:19:41Z pjb: and if you find it clever for (|| #xff -1) to be -1, then you don't know C either. 2014-06-02T15:19:44Z stassats: i accept that only pjb knows C 2014-06-02T15:20:01Z Fizzixnerd: pjb: the cleverness was in that you can use || 2014-06-02T15:20:32Z stassats: Fizzixnerd: pjb interprets everything literally 2014-06-02T15:20:36Z JuanitoJons joined #lisp 2014-06-02T15:20:46Z jdz: stassats: no, only what others say 2014-06-02T15:20:53Z Fizzixnerd: lol 2014-06-02T15:20:54Z pjb: :-) 2014-06-02T15:20:55Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T15:21:10Z Fizzixnerd: I'm not C expert by any means, don't get me wrong though 2014-06-02T15:21:17Z stassats: Fizzixnerd: if you have a lisp to c translator, don't you just logand and logior? 2014-06-02T15:21:33Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-06-02T15:21:38Z pjb: stassats: nope. 2014-06-02T15:21:54Z Fizzixnerd: stassats: you misunderstand: (and this that) => this && that 2014-06-02T15:21:54Z stassats: Fizzixnerd: or you want a wolf in sheep's clothing? 2014-06-02T15:21:56Z pjb: The important thing about && and || is that they're short-cutting operators, just like AND and OR. 2014-06-02T15:22:02Z pjb: Not like LOGAND and LOGIOR. 2014-06-02T15:22:09Z Fizzixnerd: like, it outputs c code 2014-06-02T15:22:12Z Fizzixnerd: and then you compile it 2014-06-02T15:22:15Z plerp joined #lisp 2014-06-02T15:22:16Z Fizzixnerd: with gcc 2014-06-02T15:22:28Z pjb: They don't produce ints, they produce any "true" or "false" value. 2014-06-02T15:22:46Z stassats: Fizzixnerd: same thing, wouldn't you just use (and this that) 2014-06-02T15:23:17Z stassats: i don't see where &, &&, | and || come as lisp symbols 2014-06-02T15:23:17Z Fizzixnerd: stassats: I think I will use and in this case. More clear imo 2014-06-02T15:23:25Z Fizzixnerd: oh 2014-06-02T15:23:32Z Fizzixnerd: it's a lisp-like C 2014-06-02T15:23:34Z stassats: unless you want C with lisp syntax 2014-06-02T15:23:35Z Fizzixnerd: it's not all of lisp 2014-06-02T15:23:37Z Fizzixnerd: exactly 2014-06-02T15:23:41Z Fizzixnerd: that's what I'm doing 2014-06-02T15:23:53Z stassats: well, AND is lisp syntax then 2014-06-02T15:23:58Z Fizzixnerd: yeah 2014-06-02T15:24:02Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T15:24:19Z Fizzixnerd: I don't think thinking about the names is a big deal, as long as they are short 2014-06-02T15:24:23Z scopes quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-02T15:24:50Z Fizzixnerd: I don't even relly know what I want this to be 2014-06-02T15:24:55Z stassats: but it doesn't matter, because "nobody but him is going to use it" 2014-06-02T15:24:56Z splittist: shrt nms r nt ncsrly bst id 2014-06-02T15:25:15Z Fizzixnerd: they are when they are the core of the language, and you have to remember like 15 of them 2014-06-02T15:25:27Z Fizzixnerd: car 2014-06-02T15:25:28Z Fizzixnerd: cdr 2014-06-02T15:25:29Z Fizzixnerd: cons 2014-06-02T15:25:30Z Fizzixnerd: etc 2014-06-02T15:26:07Z Fizzixnerd: unless you like writing (add-two-numbers-together-and-return-the-sum 1 1) => 2 2014-06-02T15:26:13Z splittist: update-instance-for-redefined-class 2014-06-02T15:26:14Z stassats: is "creat" a good name? 2014-06-02T15:26:27Z Fizzixnerd: it's hard to say for creat 2014-06-02T15:26:29Z marsbot is now known as marsam 2014-06-02T15:26:34Z Fizzixnerd: I'd go with no 2014-06-02T15:26:37Z YDJX quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T15:27:14Z Fizzixnerd: right, but update-instance-for-redefined-class isn't really a core operators of cl 2014-06-02T15:27:41Z Fizzixnerd: you would have a point if car was really the-first-element-of-a-cons 2014-06-02T15:27:46Z pjb: ensure-file-exists is funnier. 2014-06-02T15:27:53Z gendl joined #lisp 2014-06-02T15:28:17Z splittist: Fizzixnerd: it depends what you're doing. I'm sure there are many lisp files with more instance updating that cons and car operations. 2014-06-02T15:28:22Z stassats: sbcl has sb-pcl::make-optimized-structure-setf-slot-value-using-class-method-function 2014-06-02T15:28:37Z Fizzixnerd: wow 2014-06-02T15:28:43Z Fizzixnerd: what does pcl stand for, btw? 2014-06-02T15:28:49Z stassats: portable common loops 2014-06-02T15:28:53Z Fizzixnerd: ah 2014-06-02T15:29:17Z Fizzixnerd: splittist: I'm not sure I'd agree with "many", but there probably is at least one 2014-06-02T15:29:35Z oleo: flavours was too much message-passing ? 2014-06-02T15:29:53Z gendl quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-02T15:30:00Z Fizzixnerd: I think flavours wasn't nice because of send 2014-06-02T15:30:05Z oleo: aha 2014-06-02T15:30:10Z splittist: flavors 2014-06-02T15:30:16Z Fizzixnerd: w/e 2014-06-02T15:30:16Z stassats: Fizzixnerd: but it's internal and used only once 2014-06-02T15:30:17Z pjb: Send is very nice! 2014-06-02T15:30:29Z Xach: they were named for Bob Flavors 2014-06-02T15:30:31Z Fizzixnerd: then I'm thinking of another pre-clos thing 2014-06-02T15:30:31Z therik quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T15:30:41Z Fizzixnerd: well shit, then I'm just wrong 2014-06-02T15:30:46Z Fizzixnerd: Flavors* 2014-06-02T15:30:49Z Fizzixnerd: happy? 2014-06-02T15:30:57Z Fizzixnerd: I'm not. 2014-06-02T15:31:02Z Fizzixnerd: >:( 2014-06-02T15:31:47Z stassats: clim has command-line-read-remaining-arguments-for-partial-command, and that's public 2014-06-02T15:31:50Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-02T15:31:56Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 2014-06-02T15:31:56Z Xach: It is a little joke. Gray streams were really named for David Gray. But the flavors system was invented by Bob Flavours. 2014-06-02T15:32:13Z Fizzixnerd: I DO NOT LIKE JOKES 2014-06-02T15:32:55Z juanlas joined #lisp 2014-06-02T15:33:40Z Fizzixnerd: I do 2014-06-02T15:34:06Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-02T15:34:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-06-02T15:34:06Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-02T15:34:36Z anler quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T15:34:45Z stassats: IOLIB.SOCKETS::WITH-GUARD-AGAINST-NON-LIST-ARGS-AND-DESTRUCTURING-BIND-ERRORS is interesting too 2014-06-02T15:35:45Z stassats: and it lies, it's a handler-case for ERROR, not DESTRUCTURING-BIND-ERROR, if that existed 2014-06-02T15:39:35Z Eyes quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-02T15:39:39Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T15:40:20Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-06-02T15:44:26Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-06-02T15:44:34Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-02T15:46:56Z ustunozgur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T15:47:08Z vanjulio joined #lisp 2014-06-02T15:47:33Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-02T15:49:25Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T15:49:46Z mcsontos quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-02T15:52:01Z lduros quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T15:52:07Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-02T15:52:59Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-02T15:56:10Z Fizzixnerd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-02T15:56:42Z Eyes joined #lisp 2014-06-02T16:01:11Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-02T16:02:47Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-06-02T16:04:12Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-02T16:05:26Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-02T16:07:06Z gendl joined #lisp 2014-06-02T16:07:27Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-06-02T16:07:59Z jdz: Xach: so which is it then? Bob Flavors or Bob Flavours? 2014-06-02T16:08:36Z tinyblak_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T16:10:04Z tkhoa2711 quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-02T16:10:34Z owl-v- joined #lisp 2014-06-02T16:11:51Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-02T16:14:35Z jlongster quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-02T16:21:06Z gendl quit (Quit: gendl) 2014-06-02T16:21:45Z Xach: Robert Flavours 2014-06-02T16:22:16Z Bike: depends on locale, very tragic for him 2014-06-02T16:24:08Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-06-02T16:24:26Z yrdz joined #lisp 2014-06-02T16:25:36Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-02T16:25:38Z jlongster quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-02T16:25:39Z jusss quit (Changing host) 2014-06-02T16:25:39Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-02T16:25:48Z araujo joined #lisp 2014-06-02T16:26:05Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T16:27:23Z gendl joined #lisp 2014-06-02T16:28:20Z tesuji joined #lisp 2014-06-02T16:28:47Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 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leaves a scope defined by a LET/LET* etc. Has anyone seen this before? If so I could learn from them. 2014-06-02T21:36:49Z cmatei quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-02T21:37:30Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-02T21:38:05Z Lonzykins quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-02T21:38:23Z francogrex joined #lisp 2014-06-02T21:38:48Z ThomasH joined #lisp 2014-06-02T21:38:57Z ThomasH: Greetings lispers! 2014-06-02T21:39:57Z Fare: greetings 2014-06-02T21:40:02Z Fare: hi! 2014-06-02T21:40:10Z Alfr joined #lisp 2014-06-02T21:40:16Z ThomasH: Hello! 2014-06-02T21:40:23Z axion: greetings 2014-06-02T21:40:28Z sheilong joined #lisp 2014-06-02T21:40:35Z francogrex: I am having something weird, not related to CL but to emacs and inferior-lisp I think. In a shell, invoking sbcl and running: ....(defparameter *db* (connect "mysqlitedb" nil nil) connects me fine to the database. But from emacs inferior-lips process it never works and throws a unixODBC error that the Data source name not found!! what could be the cause? 2014-06-02T21:42:37Z alpha-: maybe directory is different? 2014-06-02T21:42:42Z Fare: I'm looking for editors / proofreaders / co-authors to rework my paper on programming evolutionism, that got rejected by SPLASH Onwards! Essays. 2014-06-02T21:43:05Z antonv joined #lisp 2014-06-02T21:43:35Z Fare: From the feedback I got, it seems that if I rewrite it to make it more accessible, I stand great chances next year. 2014-06-02T21:44:00Z xristos quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-02T21:44:43Z xristos joined #lisp 2014-06-02T21:44:48Z xristos is now known as Guest78618 2014-06-02T21:45:01Z sshirokov quit (Quit: Out!) 2014-06-02T21:46:12Z sshirokov joined #lisp 2014-06-02T21:46:16Z ThomasH: One of the things that annoys me about arrays is when UPGRADED-ARRAY-ELEMENT-TYPE is T. Where it annoys me most is with arrays with complex elements. The implementation I'm on always returns T. I'm going to write a DOWNGRADED-ARRAY-ELEMENT-TYPE function out of spite. 2014-06-02T21:46:20Z francogrex: alpha-: not likely. 2014-06-02T21:46:56Z ThomasH: Fare: I'll read it, but depending on how well I do or don't comprehend it, I can't guarantee any useful feedback. 2014-06-02T21:47:23Z jchochli_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T21:48:18Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-02T21:48:57Z SAUERKRAUSE quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T21:49:54Z Guest78618 left #lisp 2014-06-02T21:51:08Z xristos joined #lisp 2014-06-02T21:51:31Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T21:51:59Z Joreji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T21:53:52Z McFreely quit (Quit: Lingo - http://lingoirc.com) 2014-06-02T21:54:01Z scopes joined #lisp 2014-06-02T21:54:33Z Shinmera quit (Quit: ZzZzz) 2014-06-02T21:56:19Z kcj quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-02T21:56:24Z sauerkrause joined #lisp 2014-06-02T21:56:35Z owl-v- quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-06-02T21:56:56Z banjara joined #lisp 2014-06-02T21:57:27Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2014-06-02T21:57:58Z krid joined #lisp 2014-06-02T21:58:53Z boogie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T22:00:06Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T22:00:37Z marsbot is now known as marsam 2014-06-02T22:01:16Z ustunozg_ joined #lisp 2014-06-02T22:01:17Z banjara quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-02T22:01:50Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 2014-06-02T22:04:46Z ustunozgur quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-02T22:04:47Z ustunoz__ joined #lisp 2014-06-02T22:05:05Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-02T22:06:10Z Denommus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-02T22:06:25Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-02T22:07:16Z ustunozg_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-02T22:08:16Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-02T22:10:35Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T22:12:36Z owl-v- joined #lisp 2014-06-02T22:12:53Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-02T22:13:26Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-02T22:13:35Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-02T22:17:44Z gendl quit (Quit: gendl) 2014-06-02T22:19:02Z gendl joined #lisp 2014-06-02T22:20:18Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-02T22:22:19Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T22:22:40Z deego quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T22:22:47Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T22:23:42Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-02T22:24:39Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T22:27:05Z ustunoz__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T22:28:44Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-06-02T22:28:56Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-02T22:29:09Z francogrex quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T22:29:47Z drmeister: How do you remove an entry from an alist? 2014-06-02T22:30:05Z drmeister thinks he should know this but for some reason is coming up dry. 2014-06-02T22:30:44Z Bicyclidine: you could use remove 2014-06-02T22:30:47Z Bicyclidine: clhs remove 2014-06-02T22:30:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm 2014-06-02T22:30:52Z ustunozg_ joined #lisp 2014-06-02T22:32:02Z gendl quit (Quit: gendl) 2014-06-02T22:32:04Z drmeister: Thank you. 2014-06-02T22:32:10Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-02T22:33:01Z stassats: don't forget about different interpretations of NIL 2014-06-02T22:34:00Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-02T22:34:01Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-02T22:34:03Z ustunozgur quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T22:34:35Z dubosec joined #lisp 2014-06-02T22:34:40Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-02T22:36:36Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-06-02T22:37:04Z stassats: drmeister: and regarding your special variable tracing query, there's a somewhat similar functionality in CCL: ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter4.12.html#watched-objectssp 2014-06-02T22:37:21Z stassats: albeit for objects only 2014-06-02T22:38:31Z ehaliewicz joined #lisp 2014-06-02T22:38:54Z drmeister: stassats: Thanks. I'm still messing with it - it turns out it's a really delicate feature. I've been wrestling with infinite loops for the past hour. If I TRACE-SPECIAL and aren't careful about what I log to the output -> infinite loop. 2014-06-02T22:41:26Z drmeister: I'm trying to debug debugging information in my compiler. I use a special variable to keep track of source code information. I'm trying to figure out why that special variable is going out of scope just before the code is generated. ARGH 2014-06-02T22:42:29Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-02T22:43:22Z pillton joined #lisp 2014-06-02T22:44:19Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T22:48:05Z normanrichards quit 2014-06-02T22:48:06Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-02T22:51:22Z Sgeo joined #lisp 2014-06-02T22:51:56Z gendl joined #lisp 2014-06-02T22:53:00Z aretecode joined #lisp 2014-06-02T22:53:11Z gendl quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-02T22:53:44Z copec: What is the most used method of lisp based web development? 2014-06-02T22:56:42Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-02T22:57:41Z axion: copec: many of us use different stacks. #lispweb might be of interest to you 2014-06-02T22:57:41Z JuanDaugherty: you mean tools, methodology, implementation, ... ? 2014-06-02T22:57:59Z banjara joined #lisp 2014-06-02T22:58:15Z JuanDaugherty: sbcl + slime is prolly dominant here 2014-06-02T22:58:45Z heddwch: copec: elnode 2014-06-02T23:00:09Z axion: copec: i prefer hunchentoot with sexml, components-to-regex, and postmodern to name a few 2014-06-02T23:00:23Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T23:01:32Z JuanDaugherty didn't catch 'web'. I'm using hunchentoot as well. Think it is most pop ATM 2014-06-02T23:02:06Z copec: What is the general paradigm people prefer to be (less?) specific 2014-06-02T23:02:17Z banjara quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T23:02:20Z heddwch: HTTP 2014-06-02T23:02:54Z axion: copec: varies on the task and programmer's preference 2014-06-02T23:03:42Z copec: I see 2014-06-02T23:04:06Z JuanDaugherty: there are REST pkgs, for hunchentoot RESTAS if i'm not mistaken 2014-06-02T23:04:22Z Oberon4278 quit 2014-06-02T23:04:25Z krid` joined #lisp 2014-06-02T23:04:32Z axion: copec: http://lispwebtales.ppenev.com/ 2014-06-02T23:04:40Z jchochli_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-02T23:04:46Z axion: is an excelletn resource for starting ut, by one of our users here 2014-06-02T23:05:17Z gendl joined #lisp 2014-06-02T23:05:23Z copec: heh, the first paragraph is appropriate for me 2014-06-02T23:05:31Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-06-02T23:06:00Z clop2 joined #lisp 2014-06-02T23:06:25Z krid`` joined #lisp 2014-06-02T23:07:13Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-02T23:07:53Z krid quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-02T23:08:06Z replcated: How to you place a literal double quote within a format string? 2014-06-02T23:08:17Z stassats: \" 2014-06-02T23:08:18Z axion: \"\" 2014-06-02T23:08:29Z heddwch: “ 2014-06-02T23:08:47Z axion realizes heddwch is such a troll ;) 2014-06-02T23:09:23Z heddwch: Sometimes =p Although that would actually work. Different codepoint. 2014-06-02T23:10:02Z orthecreedence: probably the most readable option as well 2014-06-02T23:10:21Z krid` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T23:10:50Z replcated: Okay, that was unexpected. 2014-06-02T23:10:59Z copec: elnode suggestion seems like something trollish, but then also not 2014-06-02T23:12:25Z heddwch: That was another mixed bag =p I was being a little bit trollish, but at the same time, I think it really is the most /common/ 2014-06-02T23:12:48Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-02T23:17:13Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-02T23:19:28Z malice quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-02T23:19:57Z marsam is now known as marsbot 2014-06-02T23:21:28Z snikkers quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T23:21:48Z copec: I realize that you could substitute my initial question for "Can U has troll me plz?" 2014-06-02T23:21:59Z copec: :-p 2014-06-02T23:22:04Z heddwch: I interpret many broad questions that way 2014-06-02T23:23:34Z copec: I like to have my bearings based on what seems to be most typical when I get into something new 2014-06-02T23:24:23Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T23:24:30Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-02T23:24:47Z heddwch: I can understand that, but my opinion would be that you should base them on what's most appropriate instead. 2014-06-02T23:25:04Z copec: So, like, I didn't know if there was a Tomcat type server, or a Django like framework or something 2014-06-02T23:28:35Z heddwch: Hunchentoot for the former, not sure about the latter. You might look into Weblocks, but that's not strictly MVC 2014-06-02T23:28:42Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-02T23:29:59Z gendl quit (Quit: gendl) 2014-06-02T23:30:01Z heddwch: There's also lighter-weight alternatives for the former if you don't need everything that provides. 2014-06-02T23:30:43Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-02T23:30:43Z heddwch: http://cliki.net/Current%20recommended%20libraries is a good starting point for many things lisp, there's a web development heading 2014-06-02T23:33:54Z noncom quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-02T23:33:54Z noncom|2 quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-02T23:38:44Z owl-v- quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-06-02T23:39:16Z copec: TY for the info heddwch 2014-06-02T23:39:53Z heddwch: np :) 2014-06-02T23:40:34Z seangrov` joined #lisp 2014-06-02T23:40:53Z JuniorRoy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-02T23:44:09Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2014-06-02T23:44:18Z noncom joined #lisp 2014-06-02T23:44:18Z noncom|2 joined #lisp 2014-06-02T23:44:47Z 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slime-scratch slime-editing-commands and the slime-repl in my .emacs file, or do I only need one or the other? 2014-06-03T02:15:08Z My_Hearing joined #lisp 2014-06-03T02:16:26Z seangrov` joined #lisp 2014-06-03T02:16:42Z Bike: both if you want both, i think 2014-06-03T02:16:45Z jchochli quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T02:17:38Z seangrove quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T02:17:41Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-03T02:17:45Z dubosec: They won't conflict with each other, I assume? 2014-06-03T02:18:18Z Bike: they're all totally different things, far as i know... 2014-06-03T02:18:44Z dubosec: Cool. Thanks for the info. 2014-06-03T02:18:48Z kanru quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T02:18:56Z Bike: slime-scratch sets up an analogy to the elisp *scratch* buffer, slime-editing-commands is i don't nkow what but probably file oriented, and the repl is a rpel 2014-06-03T02:19:22Z kanru joined #lisp 2014-06-03T02:19:54Z dubosec: Ah. That makes sense. The manual lists both as options. It also lists a third option called slime-fancy, but it is described as an alternative to slime-repl 2014-06-03T02:20:10Z erikc quit (Quit: erikc) 2014-06-03T02:22:22Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T02:23:42Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-06-03T02:26:08Z |3b|: slime-fancy loads most of the stuff you'd normally want 2014-06-03T02:26:41Z |3b|: so unless you want extra control, you can just load that 2014-06-03T02:27:12Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2014-06-03T02:28:19Z zwer_l joined #lisp 2014-06-03T02:30:03Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-03T02:30:46Z chu joined #lisp 2014-06-03T02:31:31Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2014-06-03T02:41:06Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-03T02:41:06Z axion quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-03T02:41:46Z cmatei joined #lisp 2014-06-03T02:42:39Z kanru` joined #lisp 2014-06-03T02:42:44Z kanru` quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-03T02:43:01Z axion joined #lisp 2014-06-03T02:47:47Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T02:48:53Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T02:50:18Z replcated quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T02:51:53Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-03T02:52:17Z aeth joined #lisp 2014-06-03T02:52:37Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T02:54:17Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-03T02:56:25Z kanru quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T02:57:49Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-03T02:58:39Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-03T02:59:34Z the8thbit joined #lisp 2014-06-03T03:00:51Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2014-06-03T03:02:29Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-03T03:03:14Z whartung quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-03T03:03:35Z banjara joined #lisp 2014-06-03T03:04:43Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-03T03:05:08Z BAMbanda joined #lisp 2014-06-03T03:05:40Z DataLinkDroid quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-03T03:05:40Z BAMbanda: What are some major cl projects that are going on nowadays? What's the community have their eyes on in general? 2014-06-03T03:05:45Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T03:06:06Z stassats: there's no community 2014-06-03T03:06:36Z BAMbanda: stassats, what do you mean? 2014-06-03T03:07:06Z stassats: community, there isn't one 2014-06-03T03:07:21Z BAMbanda: hmmm 2014-06-03T03:08:24Z banjara quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-03T03:09:08Z zRecursive: BAMbanda: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl git://git.code.sf.net/p/maxima/code 2014-06-03T03:09:50Z stassats: why would sbcl count? 2014-06-03T03:10:12Z zRecursive: It is CL project, isnot it ? 2014-06-03T03:10:15Z kanru joined #lisp 2014-06-03T03:10:19Z BAMbanda: zRecursive, thanks 2014-06-03T03:10:31Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-03T03:10:42Z zRecursive: welcome 2014-06-03T03:11:16Z erikc joined #lisp 2014-06-03T03:11:22Z stassats: "hey, look at this language, it has a compiler" "aww, how cute" 2014-06-03T03:11:31Z heddwch: ^ 2014-06-03T03:11:57Z BAMbanda: heddwch, my new comrade 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2014-06-03T07:43:32Z ck_: awesome stuff! I had read jwz's sites on the topic, but never realized what it really was they were developing 2014-06-03T07:44:37Z ck_: and to think that who knows how many people write their C++ in Visual Studio and never know what they are missing. I should value being paid for writing common lisp more than I do.. 2014-06-03T07:44:53Z lyanchih quit (Quit: lyanchih) 2014-06-03T07:46:55Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T07:47:26Z H4ns: ck_: it is really hard to value that enough :) 2014-06-03T07:47:28Z echo-area joined #lisp 2014-06-03T07:47:51Z H4ns: ck_: whenever i hate my job, i try to remember that i could also be writing java instead. 2014-06-03T07:47:55Z lyanchih joined #lisp 2014-06-03T07:49:18Z Beetny joined #lisp 2014-06-03T07:50:46Z srimal joined #lisp 2014-06-03T07:52:34Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-06-03T07:53:37Z ck_: H4ns: it comforts me that you sometimes have that same problem 2014-06-03T07:54:29Z joe-w-bimedina joined #lisp 2014-06-03T07:55:36Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2014-06-03T07:57:31Z blakbunnie27 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T07:59:12Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T07:59:26Z joe-w-bimedina: I can name a function dot in lisp but when I name a defmethod dot I get "DOT already names an ordinary function or a macro. 2014-06-03T07:59:26Z joe-w-bimedina: [Condition of type SB-INT:SIMPLE-PROGRAM-ERROR]" 2014-06-03T07:59:38Z joe-w-bimedina: is there a workaround 2014-06-03T07:59:51Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-03T07:59:54Z dim: fmakunbound 2014-06-03T08:00:04Z dim: you can't have a function and a generic function of the same name 2014-06-03T08:00:21Z dim: and your method needs a generic function named the same as the method 2014-06-03T08:01:18Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-03T08:01:21Z tinyblak quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T08:01:52Z joe-w-bimedina: dim: why is that 2014-06-03T08:02:00Z joe-w-bimedina: the defgeneric 2014-06-03T08:02:23Z dim: read http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-generic-functions.html 2014-06-03T08:02:58Z joe-w-bimedina: thank you very much:) 2014-06-03T08:05:22Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T08:06:14Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-03T08:08:41Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-03T08:08:58Z ramkrsna quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T08:09:08Z joe-w-bimedina: dim: just verifying this is what you meant https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/43f0ea06f408f4506896 2014-06-03T08:09:47Z dim: yeah, that looks like an example 2014-06-03T08:09:59Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-03T08:10:17Z joe-w-bimedina: perfect, thanks again 2014-06-03T08:12:34Z joe-w-bimedina: is there anyway to use apply with 2 params eg (apply #'dot-2d self other) 2014-06-03T08:12:39Z kirin` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T08:12:57Z _nix00 left #lisp 2014-06-03T08:13:04Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-06-03T08:13:19Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: yes. (apply #'foo bar baz) will work 2014-06-03T08:13:35Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: maybe you _do_ want to read some documentation, it really really helps. 2014-06-03T08:13:37Z ustunozg_ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T08:13:40Z kirin` joined #lisp 2014-06-03T08:14:29Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-03T08:14:39Z joe-w-bimedina: couldn't find that on google, I almost figured out defmethod I just could use maybe a little more help 2014-06-03T08:14:51Z H4ns: google "clhs apply" 2014-06-03T08:15:02Z joe-w-bimedina: duh 2014-06-03T08:15:06Z H4ns: right. 2014-06-03T08:15:11Z H4ns: you need more than a "little" help. 2014-06-03T08:16:29Z ustunozgur quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-03T08:17:24Z joe-w-bimedina: Sorry if I offended, 2014-06-03T08:17:44Z H4ns: more annoyed than offended. but it's my fault, i could just ignore you :) 2014-06-03T08:18:03Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: maybe something helpful is between all my snarkyness :D 2014-06-03T08:19:48Z joe-w-bimedina: yea save me for other people, I just got excited is all. I just figured out defmethod without cracking AMOP. btw I do respect you as a teacher and end result is I have learned a lot from you. So thank you 2014-06-03T08:19:59Z mksan quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T08:20:30Z lyanchih quit (Quit: lyanchih) 2014-06-03T08:20:45Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: i went through that "zomg this is so exciting lisp is going to rule them all" thing myself, a few years ago, so please enjoy 2014-06-03T08:21:03Z lyanchih joined #lisp 2014-06-03T08:21:11Z H4ns: (i enjoyed it myself as a very special kind of high) 2014-06-03T08:21:21Z joe-w-bimedina: enjoyed? 2014-06-03T08:21:29Z mksan joined #lisp 2014-06-03T08:21:33Z joe-w-bimedina: (past tense?) 2014-06-03T08:21:36Z H4ns: yeah, the excitement, the possibilities, the prospect! 2014-06-03T08:21:47Z joe-w-bimedina: and now? 2014-06-03T08:21:50Z H4ns: past tense, now i'm just another lisp junkie. 2014-06-03T08:22:15Z H4ns: i need lisp to be happy. if i don't have it, i feel sad. like any other drug :) 2014-06-03T08:22:21Z H4ns: (only half joking) 2014-06-03T08:23:18Z ck_: I noticed with disappointment that all the constitutions warrant the pursuit of happiness, but never hint at how to find it 2014-06-03T08:24:34Z joe-w-bimedina: me too , gotta have it(not joking) I code from the time I wake up until I fall dead asleep, every day, yea if I had to hit the shift key every second on C for example, It would be harder to be as creative 2014-06-03T08:25:29Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: you can come up with all sorts of excuses why only lisp can make you happy. it is a self fulfilling prophecy. 2014-06-03T08:25:41Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2014-06-03T08:26:08Z pjb: - 2014-06-03T08:27:09Z H4ns: pjb: say something enchanting, please! :) 2014-06-03T08:27:12Z joe-w-bimedina: I just can't can't go to bed happy if my PC isn't more powerful than the day before. Plus I'd like to get Star Trek for real(not joking) 2014-06-03T08:27:39Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-03T08:27:45Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: it is surprisingly hard to get start trek for real using lisp. 2014-06-03T08:27:48Z malice joined #lisp 2014-06-03T08:28:04Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: but start getting a good grasp of the language first. 2014-06-03T08:28:38Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T08:28:39Z Hydan_ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T08:29:31Z joe-w-bimedina: gpu accelerated is my next step, for 150$ I'll have all 100 CV functions running at a TFLOP, which is the speed of a 1996 super computer 2014-06-03T08:30:21Z pjb: H4ns: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x12igl_happy-happy-joy-joy_fun 2014-06-03T08:31:07Z H4ns: pjb: labled as "happy", but i can't get over the ugly :D 2014-06-03T08:31:45Z Hydan quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-03T08:32:03Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-03T08:32:19Z pjb: I find how google/youtube results evolve with time disturbing. 2014-06-03T08:32:41Z joe-w-bimedina: I meant 100 CV functions , didn't want to stop people from checking out my library, fyi its over 280 functions now 2014-06-03T08:32:50Z pjb: H4ns: I hoped to find another version, but there seem to remain only that. 2014-06-03T08:33:17Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: a library with that many functions might be too much for the common programmer… 2014-06-03T08:33:31Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: if you write these by hand, you're doing it wrong. 2014-06-03T08:33:37Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-06-03T08:33:39Z pjb: Not that we're not used to frameworks with 300,000 methods, but this is lisp, not java. 2014-06-03T08:33:46Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: you should be generating the code from some machine readable specification instead. 2014-06-03T08:35:57Z joe-w-bimedina: OpenCv has over 500 plus the 100 cuda functions, so I'll have alot in the end, I'm having a python generator built for the low-level stuff soon, I'm doing it by hand now, I would love for the high level stuff to get auto generated, but I won't know how I would like everything until the library is finished 2014-06-03T08:36:59Z drewc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-03T08:38:34Z shridhar joined #lisp 2014-06-03T08:38:47Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T08:38:59Z antonv joined #lisp 2014-06-03T08:40:28Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2014-06-03T08:40:28Z ramkrsna quit (Changing host) 2014-06-03T08:40:28Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2014-06-03T08:41:58Z Tenkujin joined #lisp 2014-06-03T08:44:37Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-03T08:46:06Z joe-w-bimedina: btw if anyone does try it feel free to give any feedback here, just add my name so I'm alerted. That way I can make changes as I'm writing the library. That way my efforts will be better focused on making something that you can do actual research with. Alot of colleges teach Lisp as a starter language so my intention is to have a tool a professor can look at as a solution for teaching CV to his students 2014-06-03T08:46:19Z stilda joined #lisp 2014-06-03T08:47:41Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-03T08:48:43Z tinyblak_ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T08:49:03Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T08:51:23Z stilda: Hi. Is it a way to check that connection is closed by other side in usocket library? FAQ says that I have to read from socket and get END-OF-FILE error. But I actually do not want to read from it for this. 2014-06-03T08:51:48Z H4ns: stilda: how comes that you do not trust the faq? 2014-06-03T08:52:10Z H4ns: stilda: would it not contain a different answer if there was a different answer to the question? 2014-06-03T08:57:26Z pjb: Your lack of faith in the faq is disturbing. 2014-06-03T08:58:36Z antonv: H4ns: pjb: probably he means, he doesn't want to loose any data (if instead of EOF he gets some data, what to do with it?) 2014-06-03T08:58:59Z H4ns: antonv: possible. isn't that what peek-char is for? 2014-06-03T09:02:16Z antonv: H4ns: right, it may help (if the socket stream is not binary) 2014-06-03T09:02:40Z antonv: stilda: how about that? 2014-06-03T09:02:41Z banjara joined #lisp 2014-06-03T09:03:24Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-03T09:04:36Z ustunozg_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T09:05:21Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-03T09:06:04Z stilda: antonv: you are right. there are several reasons. 1. I do not want to make things messy if I get something other than EOF. 2. I use wait-for-input for several sockets in nonblocking way. Let me check what peek-char/peek-byte does. I have binary stream. 2014-06-03T09:06:08Z keen_______ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T09:07:17Z keen______ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T09:08:50Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-03T09:13:07Z n0n0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T09:14:48Z ck_: Does the drakma URI-parser really not handle the authorization part of something like "https://user:pass@host/path"? Am I reduced to using the :basic-authorization argument? 2014-06-03T09:15:48Z H4ns: ck_: i think so, puri does not parse authorization information as it seems. 2014-06-03T09:15:56Z ck_: H4ns: thank you. 2014-06-03T09:18:03Z ustunozgur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T09:19:20Z zwer_t quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-03T09:22:20Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-03T09:22:38Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-03T09:25:18Z ZombieChicken quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-03T09:29:17Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-03T09:29:44Z draculus joined #lisp 2014-06-03T09:31:14Z Amaan quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-06-03T09:34:07Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-03T09:38:27Z snikkers quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-03T09:42:19Z sulit joined #lisp 2014-06-03T09:43:47Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T09:44:22Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-06-03T09:44:36Z lambda` joined #lisp 2014-06-03T09:46:13Z fikusz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-03T09:47:41Z karupa is now known as zz_karupa 2014-06-03T09:49:08Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-03T09:49:40Z fikusz joined #lisp 2014-06-03T09:50:18Z huza quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T09:50:35Z ghard quit (Quit: ghard) 2014-06-03T09:52:39Z easye` quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-03T09:52:49Z easye joined #lisp 2014-06-03T09:57:15Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-03T10:01:43Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-06-03T10:03:48Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: existence destroyed because something died) 2014-06-03T10:03:56Z atgreen` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T10:03:56Z atgreen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T10:04:14Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-06-03T10:05:13Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-06-03T10:06:31Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T10:06:54Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-06-03T10:10:25Z madist quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-03T10:12:23Z therik: there's this send-script thing in weblocks, when that takes list as argument, it translates it through parenscript 2014-06-03T10:12:52Z therik: but since send-script is a function, it won't compile the parenscript piece, it'll have to recompile it every time page is requested 2014-06-03T10:12:58Z therik: what good is it for? 2014-06-03T10:13:38Z z0d quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-03T10:17:12Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-06-03T10:17:30Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-03T10:19:25Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-03T10:20:04Z madist joined #lisp 2014-06-03T10:20:07Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-03T10:21:16Z iwat joined #lisp 2014-06-03T10:22:11Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-06-03T10:22:26Z qiemem quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-06-03T10:22:39Z Joreji_ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T10:24:52Z iwat quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T10:25:12Z hlavaty joined #lisp 2014-06-03T10:25:37Z sulit quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-03T10:27:05Z iwat joined #lisp 2014-06-03T10:30:42Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-03T10:30:56Z gigetoo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-03T10:32:15Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2014-06-03T10:33:52Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-03T10:34:12Z ghard joined #lisp 2014-06-03T10:39:16Z joe-w-bimedina: I was hoping someone could look at at this defun https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/276f8b5474728ff99f6a and tell me if there is any way it can be called as multiple defmethods. The &optional needs to be there because the function size0 has no parameters 2014-06-03T10:40:59Z antonv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T10:42:57Z gurglon joined #lisp 2014-06-03T10:43:50Z Zhivago: So, why does size take a variable number of arguments? 2014-06-03T10:45:03Z joe-w-bimedina: oh wait I just figured it out I think, no need to waste your time unless you would like to know, sorry about that I had no idea I would get it that quick 2014-06-03T10:47:31Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T10:48:25Z joe-w-bimedina: Zhivago: is there a way to call the CFFI type :int in the defmethod param list or do I need to just use bit, which is not really good if the defmethod wraps a function that takes a :uchar 2014-06-03T10:49:29Z Zhivago: Why would you call it in the param list? 2014-06-03T10:49:41Z Zhivago: It sounds like you're trying to do something ill advised. 2014-06-03T10:52:47Z stilda: H4ns: antonv: I found that usocket:wait-for-input actually reacts on socket disconnection in a good way (signals that there are data). But another thing seams wrong for me: (listen stream) returns T and right after it (read-byte stream nil nil) return nil. Is it a bug? 2014-06-03T10:52:54Z replcated joined #lisp 2014-06-03T10:53:38Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T10:53:48Z Zhivago: What is strange about EOF being readable? 2014-06-03T10:54:24Z joe-w-bimedina: I have the size2 function that takes 2 ints as params...Is this ill advised? I'm trying call, every member I wrap in opencv that has a member in another class with the same name, with defmethod so if there is for instance size.width and size2f.width in opencv I can call (width size) and (width size2f) in Lisp 2014-06-03T10:55:10Z stilda: CLHS says that listen has to return nil in the case of EOF 2014-06-03T10:55:33Z lyanchih quit (Quit: lyanchih) 2014-06-03T10:56:07Z lyanchih joined #lisp 2014-06-03T10:56:20Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T10:56:54Z the8thbit joined #lisp 2014-06-03T10:57:17Z iAran joined #lisp 2014-06-03T10:59:22Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T11:00:52Z lyanchih quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-03T11:02:58Z tinyblak_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T11:05:27Z gniourf quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-03T11:06:20Z gniourf joined #lisp 2014-06-03T11:06:58Z dfox quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T11:08:58Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-06-03T11:10:46Z dfox joined #lisp 2014-06-03T11:10:57Z replcated quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T11:13:44Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-03T11:14:16Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T11:14:54Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-03T11:21:25Z puchacz joined #lisp 2014-06-03T11:21:43Z puchacz: hi, is | a legal character in symbols (variable names, function names etc.)? 2014-06-03T11:22:06Z puchacz: ok, seems not 2014-06-03T11:22:08Z puchacz: nw 2014-06-03T11:22:20Z H4ns: puchacz: you need to quote it, but it is legal 2014-06-03T11:22:35Z H4ns: puchacz: 'foo\|bar -> '|FOO\|BAR| 2014-06-03T11:22:42Z puchacz: H4ns: thx 2014-06-03T11:22:43Z loke: puchacz: everything is legal if you quote it. Even the empty string. 2014-06-03T11:22:54Z puchacz: I see 2014-06-03T11:23:11Z loke: (defparameter || 'fun) 2014-06-03T11:23:24Z huza joined #lisp 2014-06-03T11:23:35Z Joreji_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-03T11:24:31Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-03T11:26:22Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-03T11:31:17Z lambda` left #lisp 2014-06-03T11:31:33Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-03T11:31:54Z ghard quit (Quit: ghard) 2014-06-03T11:33:13Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-03T11:36:33Z FareWell joined #lisp 2014-06-03T11:41:32Z ustunozg_ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T11:41:54Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T11:42:16Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2014-06-03T11:45:43Z ustunozgur quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-03T11:46:35Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-03T11:46:37Z joe-w-bimedina: This is usually how I call my types. https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/82cb5da5b91518cee0fa when I need to use a TG finalizer for GC. Then at the bottom of that link is how I call the finalizer in a defcfun. Any idea how I would go about doing that for cffi:foreign-alloc, or do I need to specifically rewrap malloc so I have a defcfun to add the (cv::*string :garbage-collect t) return to 2014-06-03T11:48:19Z puchacz quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-03T11:53:37Z Sgeo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-03T11:54:10Z ehaliewicz quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-03T11:57:12Z lduros joined #lisp 2014-06-03T11:57:21Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-03T11:59:25Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-03T12:00:39Z dbushenko joined #lisp 2014-06-03T12:00:43Z ramus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-03T12:01:58Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-03T12:03:17Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-03T12:03:17Z scopes quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-03T12:03:50Z scopes joined #lisp 2014-06-03T12:03:53Z srimal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T12:04:12Z aluuu quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-03T12:07:27Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-03T12:07:52Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-06-03T12:08:10Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T12:09:53Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-03T12:10:08Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-03T12:10:50Z scopes quit 2014-06-03T12:11:21Z joe-w-bimedina: So I got two defmethods figured out when trying to convert this defun https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/276f8b5474728ff99f6a into defmethods, Here are my 2 successes and two failures, the gist is commented and any advice is much appreciated 2014-06-03T12:15:46Z kobain_ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T12:22:08Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-03T12:23:31Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-03T12:25:12Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-03T12:26:22Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-03T12:26:23Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-03T12:27:24Z JuniorRoy joined #lisp 2014-06-03T12:28:31Z Joreji_ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T12:29:15Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-06-03T12:29:17Z stilda quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-06-03T12:29:48Z ustunozg_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T12:29:48Z JuanDaugherty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T12:30:44Z ramus joined #lisp 2014-06-03T12:31:29Z tinyblak quit 2014-06-03T12:35:31Z dbushenko quit (Quit: Ухожу я от вас (xchat 2.4.5 или старше)) 2014-06-03T12:36:52Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-06-03T12:37:15Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2014-06-03T12:37:15Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-06-03T12:37:43Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-03T12:38:39Z hugod quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T12:39:24Z hugod joined #lisp 2014-06-03T12:40:40Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-03T12:41:15Z ustunozgur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T12:44:05Z luis quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-03T12:44:06Z ramus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T12:44:13Z Xach: joe-w-bimedina: A meta question: why are you doing it? 2014-06-03T12:44:37Z joe-w-bimedina: which one, exactly alloc? 2014-06-03T12:44:58Z Xach: joe-w-bimedina: the opencv thing. 2014-06-03T12:45:47Z stassats: minion: forget my memos 2014-06-03T12:45:47Z minion: OK, I threw it out. 2014-06-03T12:45:52Z luis joined #lisp 2014-06-03T12:45:56Z normanrichards quit 2014-06-03T12:46:00Z ustunozg_ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T12:46:26Z joe-w-bimedina: We have cl-opengl, lispbuilder-opengl, gsll of which I am a big fan, so we should have Lisp-CV, 2014-06-03T12:46:32Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-03T12:46:48Z dbushenko joined #lisp 2014-06-03T12:47:06Z juanlas joined #lisp 2014-06-03T12:48:05Z iwat quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T12:48:17Z ramus joined #lisp 2014-06-03T12:48:48Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T12:49:11Z joe-w-bimedina: Also I can learn 3 programming languages at once, and it makes me have to know everything about OpenCV 2014-06-03T12:49:58Z Zhivago: As long as it keeps you off the streets and from frightening good, decent folk. 2014-06-03T12:52:03Z Joreji_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T12:52:32Z sroy joined #lisp 2014-06-03T12:52:41Z pranavrc quit 2014-06-03T12:52:54Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm making it for everybody as well as myself and it might be going in OpenCV so any advice/critiques on the code is much appreciated and can be posted here or sent privately to the email address listed in my Readme.md 2014-06-03T12:54:20Z banjara quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-03T12:54:21Z dbushenko quit (Quit: Ухожу я от вас (xchat 2.4.5 или старше)) 2014-06-03T12:54:24Z Poenikatu joined #lisp 2014-06-03T12:54:48Z ramus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T12:55:07Z sroy quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-03T12:56:04Z Poenikatu: I'm using slime 2.5 with sbcl 1.1.18 and emacs 24.3.50.1. My function has landed in the debugger and I want to examine a variable in a function in a labels clause. How do I do that? 2014-06-03T12:56:42Z Poenikatu: The slime manual is silent on this matter. 2014-06-03T12:57:13Z joe-w-bimedina: i think alt period 2014-06-03T12:57:35Z sroy joined #lisp 2014-06-03T12:57:48Z stassats: Poenikatu: expand the frame 2014-06-03T12:58:11Z sroy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T12:58:17Z Poenikatu: stassats: I've issued `t' to show the arguments which are Ok. 2014-06-03T12:58:46Z ramus joined #lisp 2014-06-03T12:59:18Z Poenikatu: joe-w-bimedina: alt period asks me for a definition to edit. 2014-06-03T12:59:22Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T12:59:23Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-03T12:59:36Z stassats: you can use "Return" instead of "t" 2014-06-03T12:59:50Z stassats: if you don't see the variables, then there isn't one / there isn't debug information 2014-06-03T13:00:40Z joe-w-bimedina: I may have been mistaken my shortcuts must be screwed up...I got to the function definition befor with something period...how do you do that 2014-06-03T13:01:06Z stassats: M-. 2014-06-03T13:01:10Z Poenikatu: stassats: the debugger is showing the function name in the outer function call and gives the argument which is ok. What I want to know is what the local variables in the labels function contain. 2014-06-03T13:01:28Z dandersen joined #lisp 2014-06-03T13:01:45Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-03T13:01:47Z joe-w-bimedina: sorry wrong alt key 2014-06-03T13:02:09Z stassats: Poenikatu: i can't add anything more 2014-06-03T13:02:19Z ustunozg_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T13:02:36Z stassats: except that increasing debug settings 2014-06-03T13:03:12Z Poenikatu: stassats: Hm, that might help, but how does one get the values of local variables in a labels function? 2014-06-03T13:03:40Z stassats: the debugger will show you just as any other function 2014-06-03T13:03:51Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-03T13:04:09Z Poenikatu: ok. I'll have to alter the source. Thanks 2014-06-03T13:04:36Z stassats: you don't have to alter anything 2014-06-03T13:04:55Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-03T13:05:12Z Poenikatu: Well, I was thinking of moving the labels function into an exterior defun. 2014-06-03T13:06:10Z stassats: that wouldn't affect the debugger 2014-06-03T13:07:05Z Poenikatu: No, probably not. So, when the debugger lists locals, that includes not just the arguments to the function, but also the local variables? 2014-06-03T13:07:36Z stassats: why else would it be named "Locals"? 2014-06-03T13:07:53Z Adlai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T13:08:19Z Adlai joined #lisp 2014-06-03T13:09:35Z Poenikatu: true, I'm not familiar with sldb 2014-06-03T13:11:18Z vanjulio quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T13:14:50Z Poenikatu: Stepping it with LispWorks' stepper. 2014-06-03T13:14:53Z root_empire joined #lisp 2014-06-03T13:15:26Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2014-06-03T13:17:05Z michael_lee quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-03T13:18:04Z kaffekopp joined #lisp 2014-06-03T13:18:42Z jordonbi` joined #lisp 2014-06-03T13:20:32Z Sir_herrbatka joined #lisp 2014-06-03T13:21:57Z drewc joined #lisp 2014-06-03T13:22:03Z FareWell: /m fe[nl]ix hi 2014-06-03T13:22:45Z YDJX joined #lisp 2014-06-03T13:26:02Z iAran quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-03T13:26:05Z drewc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-03T13:26:48Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T13:27:15Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T13:27:33Z drewc1 joined #lisp 2014-06-03T13:28:39Z dandersen is now known as dkcl 2014-06-03T13:29:03Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-03T13:29:35Z joe-w-bimedina: Are there any functions in Lisp to solve polynominal equations eg 2x+1 or does anyone know how to write the gsll function to solve that and output -1/2 2014-06-03T13:29:43Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-06-03T13:29:57Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T13:30:22Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-03T13:31:17Z huza quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2014-06-03T13:32:53Z TristamWrk joined #lisp 2014-06-03T13:33:52Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-03T13:34:18Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-03T13:34:57Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2014-06-03T13:35:28Z gingerale joined #lisp 2014-06-03T13:35:39Z ramkrsna quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T13:36:39Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-03T13:37:01Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-06-03T13:39:00Z zwer quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-03T13:40:29Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-03T13:41:28Z drewc joined #lisp 2014-06-03T13:41:31Z ggole joined #lisp 2014-06-03T13:42:32Z drewc1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-03T13:42:43Z drmeister: I got my static analyzer running again last night now using the Boehm garbage collector. It's written in my Common Lisp, uses the Clang C++ ASTMatcher library and analyzes 165 C++ source files and takes 4 hours to run. 2014-06-03T13:43:00Z drmeister: At the end the process consumed 31 GB (gigabytes) of virtual memory - this seems like a lot. 2014-06-03T13:43:24Z drmeister: The data that it gathers is only about 100 MB (megabytes) - why would the Boehm GC require so much memory? 2014-06-03T13:43:53Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-03T13:44:02Z drmeister: I'm currently attributing it to memory fragmentation and the belief that Boehm doesn't release memory back to the OS. 2014-06-03T13:44:45Z drmeister: I have no evidence - but I'm pretty sure I don't generate 31 GB data structures. 2014-06-03T13:45:45Z drmeister: How does one measure memory fragmentation? I could annotate all objects I generate and count them. 2014-06-03T13:46:45Z drmeister is a bit mystified but relieved that it runs. Reference counting locks up the machine and wouldn't get to this point. 2014-06-03T13:48:29Z kaffekopp left #lisp 2014-06-03T13:48:31Z dlowe: the Boehm GC is conservative. Perhaps you are generating lots of objects with pointer-like things? 2014-06-03T13:49:31Z fortitude joined #lisp 2014-06-03T13:50:44Z joe-w-bimedina quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2014-06-03T13:52:01Z drmeister: Ah - yes - there is that. 2014-06-03T13:52:34Z drmeister: Things staying alive because of ambiguous pointers. 2014-06-03T13:53:15Z iAran joined #lisp 2014-06-03T13:54:22Z drmeister: Well, this is just a transitional garbage collector - and once I get the static analyzer working it will generate optimization information that even the Boehm GC will use. 2014-06-03T13:55:25Z drmeister: Thanks - I wasn't thinking about that. 2014-06-03T13:55:29Z H4ns: drmeister: so you're running some cl code that analyzes some c++ code using a c++ parser written in c++? congratulations! 2014-06-03T13:56:10Z drmeister: Yes. 2014-06-03T13:56:16Z drmeister: Thanks. 2014-06-03T13:56:24Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-03T13:58:50Z drmeister: It takes 4 hours to analyze 165 C++ source files and identifies 150,000 unique classes, generating 100MB of analysis data. The process itself ends up using 31 GB of virtual memory but the REPL is responsive once it is done. 2014-06-03T13:59:04Z drmeister: BBL 2014-06-03T13:59:11Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-03T14:00:19Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-03T14:01:52Z segv- joined #lisp 2014-06-03T14:01:52Z qiemem joined #lisp 2014-06-03T14:02:00Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-06-03T14:03:45Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T14:05:05Z iAran quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-03T14:06:10Z patrickwonders quit (Quit: patrickwonders) 2014-06-03T14:11:28Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-03T14:11:42Z ZombieChicken joined #lisp 2014-06-03T14:12:05Z sroy joined #lisp 2014-06-03T14:13:34Z puchacz joined #lisp 2014-06-03T14:15:39Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T14:15:44Z zwer quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-03T14:16:21Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-03T14:17:21Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-03T14:20:00Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-03T14:20:34Z ustunozg_ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T14:20:53Z varjag quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-03T14:23:00Z patrickwonders joined #lisp 2014-06-03T14:24:06Z ustunozgur quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-03T14:25:04Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-03T14:25:26Z Intensity joined #lisp 2014-06-03T14:27:11Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T14:27:33Z nightshade427: How can I get this to work. I have a file /tmp/[test].txt but if I do (truename #p"/tmp/[test].txt") I get error "cannot find truename of wild pathname". How can I make it see it as not wild but a regular filename? 2014-06-03T14:27:44Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-03T14:28:26Z Xach: nightshade427: varies by implementation. in sbcl you can escape the wild characters. 2014-06-03T14:28:38Z Xach: e.g. "\\[test].txt" 2014-06-03T14:28:38Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-03T14:29:29Z nightshade427: Xach: yeah, I'm using sbcl, I'll try escaping, thanks 2014-06-03T14:30:40Z ustunoz__ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T14:31:03Z nightshade427: I was afraid that would make filename not be [test].txt when written out, will give it a shot, thanks again 2014-06-03T14:31:11Z ustunozg_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-03T14:31:11Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 2014-06-03T14:31:54Z Xach: nightshade427: namestrings don't have to match the underlying "native" pathnames 2014-06-03T14:31:58Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T14:32:15Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T14:32:17Z Xach: clozure cl, for example, escapes #\. characters in pathname-names when displaying them, but it's still referring to an unescaped underlying file name. 2014-06-03T14:32:38Z nightshade427: okay cool, perfect 2014-06-03T14:32:42Z Shinmera: nightshade427: You could also try uiop's parse-native-namestring. 2014-06-03T14:33:59Z ustunozgur quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T14:34:01Z nightshade427: worked prefect Xach, thanks! 2014-06-03T14:34:18Z dim: Xach: IIRC in CCL namestring escapes #\. in its output too 2014-06-03T14:34:29Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-03T14:34:29Z dim: I've had to switch to uiop:native-namestring 2014-06-03T14:34:44Z sroy quit (Quit: Quitte) 2014-06-03T14:35:19Z Xach: dim: what output? 2014-06-03T14:35:56Z dim: the value that the function namestring returns 2014-06-03T14:35:59Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-03T14:36:11Z Xach: Yes, that is what I was referring to. 2014-06-03T14:36:35Z Xach: The syntax of a namestring is defined by the implementation. If you want to pass it somewhere out of the implementation, you have to make sure it means what you want, or convert it. 2014-06-03T14:36:47Z dim: oh yeah ok, I though you meant the pathname object representation, #P"...", rather than the namestring's output 2014-06-03T14:37:00Z Xach: dim: the string after #P is the namestring. 2014-06-03T14:37:18Z dim: interesting, some more confusion for me here 2014-06-03T14:38:10Z dim: the confusion comes from my understanding that some namestring that you can have as an output will not be parsed properly again, this conversion isn't bijective 2014-06-03T14:38:39Z dim: but well we've been talking about that often enough already, and I'm now using uiop:parse-native-namestring when needed 2014-06-03T14:39:59Z Xach: It is my understanding that any string returned from NAMESTRING can be parsed by PARSE-NAMESTRING. 2014-06-03T14:39:59Z mrSpec quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-03T14:41:08Z Xach: It's not the case that any string that would be recognized by e.g. a Unix system call as referring to a file name is acceptable as a namestring in a given implementation. 2014-06-03T14:42:18Z dim: when using run-command and the like, you really don't want #\. escaping in filenames, because you want filenames, not namestrings nor pathnames, so yeah 2014-06-03T14:42:56Z Xach: You want "native" file name strings. 2014-06-03T14:43:18Z dim: yeah, hence using uiop:native-namestring and all 2014-06-03T14:44:22Z nyef joined #lisp 2014-06-03T14:45:37Z FareWell: unhappily, uiop:native-namestring isn't reliable on all implementations. Should work well on sbcl and ccl, though. 2014-06-03T14:46:05Z FareWell: unlike iolib that tries to do the right thing, uiop sacrifices the right thing to portability 2014-06-03T14:47:12Z dim: in practice all I use nowadays is SBCL and CCL 2014-06-03T14:47:18Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-03T14:47:20Z dim: from time to time I'm trying CLISP too 2014-06-03T14:47:23Z FareWell: which is always an improvement over not trying to do the right thing at all. 2014-06-03T14:47:40Z FareWell: dim: I used to do the same 2014-06-03T14:47:41Z dlowe: it's all tradeoffs 2014-06-03T14:48:13Z dim: ah, trade-offs. 2014-06-03T14:48:57Z FareWell: Xach: some implementations get really confused with wildcard characters and can't properly parse back 2014-06-03T14:49:28Z dlowe: it doesn't help that unix filenames are essentially just a block of bytes 2014-06-03T14:49:38Z Xach: I know CLISP has problems, but CLISP is flawed in many ways. 2014-06-03T14:49:45Z dim: filenames and encoding, hilarity. 2014-06-03T14:50:07Z zenyfish quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-03T14:50:18Z erikc joined #lisp 2014-06-03T14:50:24Z erikc quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-03T14:50:26Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2014-06-03T14:50:33Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-03T14:50:47Z FareWell: filenames and encoding *across network filesystems such as SAMBA or NFS with various underlying physical FSes underneath* 2014-06-03T14:50:57Z nyef: ... UNC filespecs? 2014-06-03T14:51:12Z sroy joined #lisp 2014-06-03T14:51:13Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T14:53:21Z FareWell: nyef: no swearing, please. 2014-06-03T14:53:25Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-03T14:53:25Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-06-03T14:53:25Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-03T14:53:28Z nyef: Heh. 2014-06-03T14:53:45Z p_l: nyef: UNC is also internal 2014-06-03T14:53:47Z ustunoz__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T14:53:54Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2014-06-03T14:54:02Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T14:54:25Z p_l: a proper windows filepath includes all portions of CL pathname except for version, and that's only because you need ioctl for the version part, iirc 2014-06-03T14:55:05Z p_l: (though device can be empty) 2014-06-03T14:55:31Z cmatei quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-03T14:56:25Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-06-03T14:57:21Z cmatei joined #lisp 2014-06-03T14:59:31Z 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attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-03T17:27:10Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T17:27:32Z c11xa: ucw is framework? 2014-06-03T17:27:45Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-03T17:28:06Z schoppenhauer: monitor is [xga]? 2014-06-03T17:28:24Z c11xa: no i have hdtv monitor 2014-06-03T17:28:38Z c11xa: 1920x1080px 2014-06-03T17:28:53Z schoppenhauer: imba. 2014-06-03T17:29:29Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T17:29:53Z schoppenhauer: thogh I do not like widescreens so much 2014-06-03T17:30:43Z heddwch: Widescreen is the entire reason I ended up switching to tiling WMs... To try and use the awkward space more efficiently 2014-06-03T17:31:04Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-03T17:31:12Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T17:31:22Z stassats: am i missing something? am i in #lisp? 2014-06-03T17:31:31Z c11xa: i'd put mine vertical but the stand does not rotate 2014-06-03T17:31:38Z c11xa: also it does not work as well as i thought 2014-06-03T17:31:42Z heddwch: You missed that humans aren't 100% on-topic all the time 2014-06-03T17:31:46Z c11xa: stassats: screen full of )))))s 2014-06-03T17:32:22Z stassats: heddwch: this is an out of the blue non-relevant discussion 2014-06-03T17:32:22Z jdz: heddwch: they are if they try 2014-06-03T17:32:41Z heddwch: jdz: I don't see how that would be a positive. 2014-06-03T17:32:47Z heddwch: stassats: That's what off-topic means 2014-06-03T17:32:51Z JuanDaugherty: yes ucw is a framework 2014-06-03T17:32:57Z JuanDaugherty: continuations based iirc 2014-06-03T17:33:04Z heddwch: Saved by JuanDaugherty 2014-06-03T17:33:31Z c11xa: JuanDaugherty: how can i serve it? hunchentoot or it has built in server? 2014-06-03T17:33:52Z stassats: mod_lisp is dead, and almost nobody uses ucw nowadays 2014-06-03T17:34:32Z c11xa: some guy said it was good 2014-06-03T17:34:35Z JuanDaugherty: c11xa, i run hunchentoot standalone 2014-06-03T17:34:45Z JuanDaugherty: but you can run it under mod_lisp 2014-06-03T17:34:53Z stassats: you can't 2014-06-03T17:34:54Z JuanDaugherty: dunno about ucw 2014-06-03T17:35:16Z JuanDaugherty: that is I think you can run it under mod_lisp 2014-06-03T17:35:37Z JuanDaugherty: in practice a rewrite or proxy may be easier 2014-06-03T17:35:56Z stassats: well, you think wrong 2014-06-03T17:36:02Z aftershave joined #lisp 2014-06-03T17:36:36Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2014-06-03T17:36:44Z JuanDaugherty: i thought I had you on ignore 2014-06-03T17:36:47Z c11xa: in order to write a web app in lisp i think the documentation i need to read is the http rfc 2014-06-03T17:37:47Z JuanDaugherty: http://www.cliki.net/hunchentoot 2014-06-03T17:37:51Z JuanDaugherty: says so 2014-06-03T17:38:27Z stassats: it is wrong too 2014-06-03T17:38:52Z stassats: such things happen 2014-06-03T17:39:29Z Sir_herrbatka: what is the practical application of the macrolet? 2014-06-03T17:40:19Z Sir_herrbatka: it is used exclusive for the typical macro stuff where, you need to control evaluation, right? 2014-06-03T17:40:22Z stassats: now it doesn't say so 2014-06-03T17:40:44Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T17:40:52Z stassats: it's a macro, but only accessible locally 2014-06-03T17:41:41Z foreignFunction joined #lisp 2014-06-03T17:42:08Z cross quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T17:42:34Z oGMo: gah, UIOP is very noisy 2014-06-03T17:42:43Z pjb: find ~/quicklisp -name \*.lisp -exec grep -nHi macrolet {} \; and see by yourself! 2014-06-03T17:42:53Z oGMo: the "warnings" are apparently not actual warnings that can be muffled 2014-06-03T17:43:05Z InvalidCo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T17:43:21Z Sir_herrbatka: stassats: i have a bit of problem applying macros 2014-06-03T17:44:02Z Sir_herrbatka: besides situations when i need to control evaluation, i don't see what are they for 2014-06-03T17:44:03Z pjb: Then don't! Use functions! 2014-06-03T17:44:14Z jordonbi` left #lisp 2014-06-03T17:44:17Z Sir_herrbatka: pjb: i feel reliefed ;-) 2014-06-03T17:44:27Z stassats: pjb: protip: rgrep --include="*.lisp" macrolet 2014-06-03T17:45:17Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T17:45:32Z jxv quit (Quit: QUIT) 2014-06-03T17:45:33Z stassats: unless you are on bsd or some other fringe OS 2014-06-03T17:45:53Z JuanDaugherty: lol 2014-06-03T17:46:08Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-03T17:46:11Z pjb: Sir_herrbatka: http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html 2014-06-03T17:46:46Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-06-03T17:46:52Z stassats: Sir_herrbatka: macros do not really control evaluation 2014-06-03T17:46:52Z Sir_herrbatka: pjb: aah land of lisp 2014-06-03T17:46:57Z stassats: they just allow you to write or rewrite code 2014-06-03T17:47:26Z JuanDaugherty: center is the new fringe 2014-06-03T17:47:52Z stassats: special operators control evaluation, if your macro output uses special operators, it may appear as the macro itself is a special operator and controls evaluation 2014-06-03T17:47:56Z stassats: but it's just a function applied on source forms 2014-06-03T17:47:59Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-03T17:48:15Z Sir_herrbatka: stassats: that is ther correct explanation, but not quite verbose example of practical application 2014-06-03T17:48:29Z stassats: you would need to learn Lisp first 2014-06-03T17:48:57Z Sir_herrbatka: i'm learning 2014-06-03T17:49:00Z InvalidCo joined #lisp 2014-06-03T17:49:13Z Sir_herrbatka: but it is different than other languages 2014-06-03T17:49:44Z JuanDaugherty: yes, it's not algol-like 2014-06-03T17:49:46Z oGMo: eh, it's not _that_ different 2014-06-03T17:49:57Z JuanDaugherty: which vast majority in use are 2014-06-03T17:50:14Z wati`` joined #lisp 2014-06-03T17:50:41Z oGMo: where you put the delimiters are a bit different and the way it handles parsing is a bit different 2014-06-03T17:50:53Z oGMo: s/are/is/ 2014-06-03T17:51:32Z Sir_herrbatka: oGMo: imho is very, very, very different 2014-06-03T17:52:05Z oGMo: Sir_herrbatka: then you need to use it more 2014-06-03T17:52:45Z JuanDaugherty: well programming is programming if that 2014-06-03T17:52:50Z JuanDaugherty: 's what you mean 2014-06-03T17:53:21Z Sir_herrbatka: oGMo: i'm trying to do that 2014-06-03T17:53:42Z juanlas joined #lisp 2014-06-03T17:53:58Z JuanDaugherty: yeeha tres juans agin 2014-06-03T17:54:19Z whartung_ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T17:54:37Z oGMo: no, i mean it's very similar, though you get a few nice things (like macros) as a result of how it parses things, and it has some nice features you don't necessarily get built in elsewhere (rationals), and CLOS is more advanced than the alternatives 2014-06-03T17:54:59Z Sir_herrbatka: oGMo: it feels different 2014-06-03T17:55:09Z Sir_herrbatka: when you code in C, you code in C 2014-06-03T17:55:27Z oGMo: well, C isn't a very good comparison, but sure 2014-06-03T17:55:29Z Sir_herrbatka: when you code in Lisp, you actually implement new features into Lisp 2014-06-03T17:55:44Z Sir_herrbatka: that's how it feels 2014-06-03T17:55:49Z c11xa: you dont execute code in lisp, you evaluate expressions 2014-06-03T17:55:55Z oGMo: you write any language in its own metaphor or you're doing it wrong; CL can just be most metaphors you want on demand 2014-06-03T17:56:30Z whartung quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T17:56:30Z whartung_ is now known as whartung 2014-06-03T17:57:08Z Sir_herrbatka: also, somehow when i program in lisp, i tend to divide every procedure with labels 2014-06-03T17:57:21Z JuanDaugherty: yuk 2014-06-03T17:57:32Z tinyblak quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T17:57:32Z JuanDaugherty: wanna get away from that 2014-06-03T17:58:13Z Sir_herrbatka: and i do other things that makes it very different expirence 2014-06-03T17:58:33Z n0n0 joined #lisp 2014-06-03T17:58:45Z JuanDaugherty: every lang culture has norms that need to be carefully observed before transgressing 2014-06-03T17:58:51Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 2014-06-03T17:59:09Z oGMo: idioms for a good reason 2014-06-03T17:59:27Z juanlas joined #lisp 2014-06-03T17:59:40Z oGMo: you should read a lot of code to see how it can be done 2014-06-03T17:59:49Z Poenikatu left #lisp 2014-06-03T18:00:03Z JuanDaugherty: but yeah lisp is somehow more general computing than a fixed lang 2014-06-03T18:02:13Z JuanDaugherty: well not somehow, specifically as a l calc impl 2014-06-03T18:02:15Z Vivitron quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-03T18:02:39Z Vivitron joined #lisp 2014-06-03T18:03:53Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-03T18:04:03Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-03T18:04:48Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T18:05:57Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-03T18:09:07Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-03T18:11:31Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T18:11:44Z wati`` quit (Quit: wati``) 2014-06-03T18:13:34Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-06-03T18:13:49Z nostoi joined #lisp 2014-06-03T18:14:29Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: session closed because everything exploded) 2014-06-03T18:14:44Z aftershave quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-03T18:21:15Z TristamWrk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T18:21:24Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2014-06-03T18:21:45Z sheilong joined #lisp 2014-06-03T18:22:43Z mutley89 joined #lisp 2014-06-03T18:24:03Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-03T18:25:33Z TristamWrk joined #lisp 2014-06-03T18:26:44Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-03T18:27:35Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-03T18:28:03Z theos joined #lisp 2014-06-03T18:28:35Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-03T18:29:42Z wgreenhouse quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-03T18:30:39Z wgreenhouse joined #lisp 2014-06-03T18:31:04Z eni_ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T18:33:38Z bocaneri quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-03T18:33:38Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T18:34:22Z karswell joined #lisp 2014-06-03T18:35:04Z varjag_ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T18:36:05Z JokerDoomWork joined #lisp 2014-06-03T18:36:23Z seangrove quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-03T18:37:23Z nvmme joined #lisp 2014-06-03T18:37:43Z nvmme quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T18:37:53Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-03T18:38:25Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-03T18:38:28Z the8thbit joined #lisp 2014-06-03T18:43:51Z Okasu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T18:45:17Z MouldyOldBones quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T18:46:21Z nostoi quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-06-03T18:46:25Z ghard quit (Quit: ghard) 2014-06-03T18:48:04Z Adlai quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-03T18:48:23Z malice joined #lisp 2014-06-03T18:48:26Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-03T18:49:37Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-03T18:50:41Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-03T18:50:50Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-06-03T18:58:14Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-03T19:00:16Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-03T19:00:28Z Adlai joined #lisp 2014-06-03T19:02:02Z MouldyOldBones joined #lisp 2014-06-03T19:03:38Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-03T19:10:15Z seangrove quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T19:10:30Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-03T19:18:17Z francogrex joined #lisp 2014-06-03T19:22:38Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T19:23:09Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-06-03T19:24:45Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T19:25:14Z monod joined #lisp 2014-06-03T19:26:00Z Poenikatu joined #lisp 2014-06-03T19:26:57Z jchochl__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T19:27:00Z Poenikatu: Could someone look at http://paste.lisp.org/+325S? I tried to compile "able" on sbcl 1.1.18. 2014-06-03T19:28:03Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T19:29:11Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-03T19:29:26Z nug700 joined #lisp 2014-06-03T19:29:39Z Bicyclidine: Poenikatu: what errors don't you understand? 2014-06-03T19:29:43Z Bicyclidine: well, warnings 2014-06-03T19:29:49Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-03T19:30:19Z therik quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-03T19:30:46Z c11xa: Poenikatu: replace (quit) with (exit) 2014-06-03T19:32:42Z Sir_herrbatka: guys 2014-06-03T19:32:59Z Sir_herrbatka: how do you handle making copy of the sequences? 2014-06-03T19:33:05Z banjara quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-03T19:33:25Z Sir_herrbatka: that is 2014-06-03T19:34:02Z Bicyclidine: copy-seq 2014-06-03T19:34:15Z Sir_herrbatka: if function can create problem when used with the reference to the lisp 2014-06-03T19:34:19Z Sir_herrbatka: *list 2014-06-03T19:34:32Z Bicyclidine: you're not making sense. 2014-06-03T19:34:37Z Sir_herrbatka: do you pass a copy or make a copy in the list? 2014-06-03T19:34:54Z banjara joined #lisp 2014-06-03T19:34:57Z Sir_herrbatka: Bicyclidine: can you let me finish? 2014-06-03T19:35:08Z Bicyclidine: ok. 2014-06-03T19:35:10Z Sir_herrbatka: i wrote a function that generates a row 2014-06-03T19:35:19Z Bicyclidine: but i meant "not making sense" as in "i can't parse what you're writing". 2014-06-03T19:35:28Z H4ns: Sir_herrbatka: maybe you want to first think, then write one or two sentences 2014-06-03T19:35:29Z banjara quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-03T19:35:32Z H4ns: Sir_herrbatka: rather than fragments. 2014-06-03T19:35:43Z nvmme joined #lisp 2014-06-03T19:35:46Z Sir_herrbatka: H4ns: maybe i can just paste a code? 2014-06-03T19:35:52Z H4ns: Sir_herrbatka: paste.lisp.org 2014-06-03T19:35:54Z Bicyclidine: go for it. 2014-06-03T19:37:32Z Sir_herrbatka: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142769 2014-06-03T19:37:35Z Sir_herrbatka: ok my example 2014-06-03T19:37:56Z Sir_herrbatka: (funcall fnext (if (listp prev) (copy-seq prev) prev)) 2014-06-03T19:37:58Z Sir_herrbatka: here 2014-06-03T19:38:25Z Sir_herrbatka: this way i'm making sure that this function can work with the lists 2014-06-03T19:38:47Z Sir_herrbatka: not sure if it is the right way to do this 2014-06-03T19:38:52Z Sir_herrbatka: maybe there is something better 2014-06-03T19:39:09Z Sir_herrbatka: Bicyclidine: does that makes sense? 2014-06-03T19:39:30Z Bicyclidine: well, i don't know what your code is. what's fnext? why are you appending a two element list? 2014-06-03T19:39:44Z the8thbit quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-03T19:40:50Z H4ns: Sir_herrbatka: why do you want to allow the fnext function to be destructive? 2014-06-03T19:41:19Z Sir_herrbatka: hmmmm 2014-06-03T19:41:25Z H4ns: Sir_herrbatka: i rarely worry about destructive operations and i try to avoid them. usually, when i start doing something destructive, i realize that it is a mistake later. 2014-06-03T19:41:39Z Sir_herrbatka: let me think second 2014-06-03T19:41:46Z francogrex quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-03T19:42:49Z Sir_herrbatka: H4ns: destructive function is what comes to my mind 2014-06-03T19:43:01Z H4ns: Sir_herrbatka: hu? 2014-06-03T19:43:43Z Sir_herrbatka: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142770 2014-06-03T19:43:47Z Sir_herrbatka: this function 2014-06-03T19:43:48Z rootzlevel quit (Quit: kremel-update) 2014-06-03T19:43:56Z Sir_herrbatka: it is destructive 2014-06-03T19:44:19Z marsbot is now known as marsam 2014-06-03T19:44:48Z H4ns: Sir_herrbatka: yeah. it is possible to write destructive functions, but more often than not it is a mistake. 2014-06-03T19:45:21Z Sir_herrbatka: ok, i will remember it 2014-06-03T19:45:27Z Sir_herrbatka: thanks 2014-06-03T19:47:06Z hpd joined #lisp 2014-06-03T19:48:42Z therik joined #lisp 2014-06-03T19:48:57Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T19:49:04Z Sir_herrbatka: H4ns: do you usually mark functions that are not destructive safe in a special way? 2014-06-03T19:49:17Z H4ns: Sir_herrbatka: not generally, no. 2014-06-03T19:49:22Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-03T19:49:37Z Sir_herrbatka: i think that it is a beneficial to separate destructive and not destructive code 2014-06-03T19:50:05Z H4ns: Sir_herrbatka: yes. and as a first rule, you can avoid destructive code altogether. 2014-06-03T19:50:24Z Sir_herrbatka: i can't, sometimes 2014-06-03T19:50:45Z Sir_herrbatka: or i don't want to because of the performance 2014-06-03T19:50:48Z yacks quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-03T19:50:55Z Sir_herrbatka: H4ns: good night 2014-06-03T19:52:38Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-03T19:58:33Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-03T20:00:40Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-03T20:00:48Z JokerDoomWork quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T20:00:51Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T20:02:38Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T20:03:28Z srcerer joined #lisp 2014-06-03T20:03:38Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-03T20:03:49Z sroy quit (Quit: Quitte) 2014-06-03T20:04:54Z seangrove quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T20:05:15Z nvmme quit (Quit: nvmme) 2014-06-03T20:06:29Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-06-03T20:09:13Z TristamWrk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T20:10:00Z Hydan quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-03T20:11:22Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T20:12:11Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-06-03T20:12:23Z mutley89 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-03T20:13:13Z TristamWrk joined #lisp 2014-06-03T20:14:19Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-03T20:15:01Z jxv joined #lisp 2014-06-03T20:16:29Z Sir_herrbatka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-03T20:21:53Z puchacz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-03T20:24:47Z hpd quit (Quit: weechat) 2014-06-03T20:28:43Z c11xa: is there a "lisp runtime" docs? 2014-06-03T20:29:06Z c11xa: how to interact with repl, manage packages, save images etc 2014-06-03T20:29:11Z ggole quit 2014-06-03T20:29:14Z oGMo: yes, it's called "the standard" heh 2014-06-03T20:29:20Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-03T20:29:21Z oGMo: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/Contents.htm 2014-06-03T20:30:23Z c11xa: ok the clocc docs says me to 'dump images' does that mean save? 2014-06-03T20:30:46Z H4ns: oGMo: he's asking for the things that are _not_ in the standard 2014-06-03T20:31:08Z c11xa: H4ns: yes 2014-06-03T20:31:10Z H4ns: c11xa: every decent implementation has documentation describing the non-standard features like image saving. 2014-06-03T20:31:12Z oGMo: H4ns: yet 2 of the 3 were standard things heh 2014-06-03T20:31:25Z oGMo: but, yes, that's implementation-specific and the compiler docs should cover it 2014-06-03T20:31:25Z H4ns: oGMo: lol no hehe. 2014-06-03T20:31:40Z oGMo: H4ns: managing packages isn't part of the spec? 2014-06-03T20:32:00Z H4ns: oGMo: he is not referring to packages, but to libraries and extensions. 2014-06-03T20:32:04Z heddwch: c11xa: For things like saving images, consult the documentation of your particular implementation 2014-06-03T20:32:13Z c11xa: ok ill look there thx 2014-06-03T20:32:18Z heddwch: :) 2014-06-03T20:32:18Z oGMo: c11xa: what lisp are you using/ 2014-06-03T20:32:43Z c11xa: oGMo: thats part of my problem i'm still bouncing between clisp and sbcl 2014-06-03T20:33:10Z Xach: Don't. 2014-06-03T20:33:14Z Xach: CLISP is not good. 2014-06-03T20:33:27Z oGMo: that 2014-06-03T20:33:28Z Xach: You will get some defenders of it, but they are partly crazy. 2014-06-03T20:33:37Z c11xa: i seem to have less errors with clisp 2014-06-03T20:33:42Z oGMo: if nothing else bounce between ccl and sbcl 2014-06-03T20:33:47Z c11xa: sbcl dumps a page of warnings when i start it up 2014-06-03T20:34:01Z Xach: c11xa: That's not a normal setup. What warnings? 2014-06-03T20:34:02Z oGMo: c11xa: fewer errors probably means your implementation is oblivious to bugs 2014-06-03T20:34:33Z oGMo: if it's uiop complaining about versions starting with 0, i have that complaint as well :p 2014-06-03T20:35:05Z c11xa: ok now its not :\ 2014-06-03T20:35:48Z JuanDaugherty: windows, right? 2014-06-03T20:36:11Z c11xa: no debian 2014-06-03T20:36:27Z c11xa: but i was loading a readline lib i found that may have been teh cause 2014-06-03T20:36:41Z c11xa: but anyway its not doing it now so i guess i'll just use sbcl 2014-06-03T20:36:43Z JuanDaugherty: you messed up the config 2014-06-03T20:36:45Z rszeno joined #lisp 2014-06-03T20:36:58Z c11xa: probably 2014-06-03T20:37:41Z JuanDaugherty: i think 1.0.5n is the default for debian stable though 2014-06-03T20:37:47Z JuanDaugherty: best to build from source 2014-06-03T20:39:33Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T20:42:25Z c11xa: building now 2014-06-03T20:45:03Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T20:46:01Z dubosec joined #lisp 2014-06-03T20:49:56Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-06-03T20:53:35Z rk[1] likes CLISP :)! 2014-06-03T20:53:35Z cross joined #lisp 2014-06-03T20:54:00Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T20:54:32Z rk[1]: i like CLISP's shell more than SBCL's 2014-06-03T20:54:42Z billstclair quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T20:54:46Z rk[1]: maybe i am just more familiar with it, but... 2014-06-03T20:54:58Z rk[1]: vi-like gnu readline is really handy. 2014-06-03T20:55:10Z oGMo: the real question is why the hell you're using it at all and not doing everything through slime ;) 2014-06-03T20:55:15Z c11xa: rk[1]: you can get readline for sbcl http://jini-zh.org/sbcl-readline/sbcl-readline.html 2014-06-03T20:55:20Z oGMo: slime's repl is pretty good 2014-06-03T20:55:36Z rk[1]: slime, oh slime. i know, but i don't. 2014-06-03T20:56:16Z rk[1]: i like to program in VIM. i know there is a slimey vim and i could also look in to evil... but i just haven't. 2014-06-03T20:56:28Z oGMo: you can, i used linedit for awhile too, but that seems to break ldb .. i don't know if sbcl-readline breaks ldb 2014-06-03T20:56:33Z rk[1]: at the moment, i just have hooks in vim and some gnu readline remappings. 2014-06-03T20:56:41Z c11xa: another thing with clisp is you can run things from the command line with just clisp file.lisp 2014-06-03T20:56:49Z c11xa: sbcl you have to say sbcl --load file.lisp 2014-06-03T20:56:56Z rk[1]: lol 2014-06-03T20:56:57Z oGMo: lisp without slime and paredit is pretty crazy 2014-06-03T20:57:10Z antoszka: c11xa, rk[1], linedit seems to be the best choice for a readline-like repl in SBCL. 2014-06-03T20:57:11Z knob quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-03T20:57:20Z billstclair joined #lisp 2014-06-03T20:57:20Z billstclair quit (Changing host) 2014-06-03T20:57:20Z billstclair joined #lisp 2014-06-03T20:57:21Z rk[1]: antoszka: i will maybe look in to it 2014-06-03T20:57:27Z c11xa: i to! 2014-06-03T20:57:45Z rk[1]: i _really_ like clisp. the only downfall in my mind is poor multithread support 2014-06-03T20:57:51Z oGMo: perhaps you should also abandon macros, 3rd party systems, and just make all errors crash your lisp 2014-06-03T20:58:03Z ehaliewicz joined #lisp 2014-06-03T20:58:41Z foom: c11xa: "sbcl --script file.lisp", is better. 2014-06-03T21:00:09Z rk[1]: does anyone here use sbcl _as_ a shell? 2014-06-03T21:00:29Z c11xa: i see --script now 2014-06-03T21:00:45Z c11xa: but sbcl file.lisp doesnt seem to do anything so why is it needed at all 2014-06-03T21:00:46Z rszeno: what do you mean by _as_ shell? 2014-06-03T21:00:48Z oGMo: no, but i use it for shellscripts via ScriptL (shameless plug) 2014-06-03T21:01:02Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-03T21:01:06Z rk[1]: rszeno: like a replacement for sh/bash/zsh 2014-06-03T21:01:11Z JuanDaugherty: crazy is hyperbolic. harder is factual 2014-06-03T21:01:19Z rk[1]: as an interactive shell for general computing 2014-06-03T21:01:34Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-03T21:01:50Z rszeno: i don't this is possible. it is? 2014-06-03T21:01:59Z rk[1]: i use clisp as a shell. 2014-06-03T21:02:11Z monod quit (Quit: Quit) 2014-06-03T21:02:19Z rk[1]: therefor i assume it is possible with sbcl 2014-06-03T21:02:40Z oGMo: you could, i've actually contemplated hacking a command parser into it, but otoh zsh is good enough 2014-06-03T21:02:41Z rk[1]: i just never tried because i didn't care for sbcl's default readline and didn't know how to change it. 2014-06-03T21:02:48Z rk[1]: haha 2014-06-03T21:02:53Z rk[1]: zsh does have some fancies. 2014-06-03T21:03:03Z foom: you can use rlwrap if you just want readline and sbcl 2014-06-03T21:03:04Z rk[1]: but i am telling ya'll, lisp as shell is awesome. 2014-06-03T21:03:14Z foom: as in "rlwrap sbcl" 2014-06-03T21:03:25Z White_Flame: I don't know, pathnames aren't my favorite part of CL 2014-06-03T21:03:30Z oGMo: like, CL doesn't really add anything out of the box i can't just make a scriptl script do, and i don't feel like writing a shell parser which would inevitably be inferior 2014-06-03T21:03:33Z rk[1]: foom: mind expanded. hrm... 2014-06-03T21:04:09Z rk[1]: oGMo: it has its place. i don't use clisp as a shell everyday. but there are times it is handy 2014-06-03T21:04:34Z nyef quit (Quit: G'night all) 2014-06-03T21:05:12Z foreignFunction quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-03T21:05:21Z rk[1]: and one thing i played around with is capturing standard out and creating a list of strings for each line ($ "ls") ==> '("file-a" "file-b" "file-c") 2014-06-03T21:05:37Z therik quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T21:06:08Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-03T21:06:10Z antoszka: rlwrap is, well, just a wrapper, the repl doesn't know about it and the cooperation can be very flakey 2014-06-03T21:06:36Z antoszka: definitely have a look at linedit, guys, it's a high quality piece of native lisp code, that nicely hooks into the repl 2014-06-03T21:06:43Z oGMo: although that may be better wrt LDB heh 2014-06-03T21:06:46Z rk[1]: does rlwrap source ~/.inputrc ? 2014-06-03T21:06:53Z antoszka: probably 2014-06-03T21:07:16Z antoszka: I suppose libreadline.so actually does it 2014-06-03T21:07:52Z rk[1]: ah, makes sense. 2014-06-03T21:08:01Z rk[1]: so for 'linedit' is there a vi-like option? 2014-06-03T21:08:42Z antoszka: TBH, I haven't researched 2014-06-03T21:08:46Z foom: "rlwrap -p" is nice, cause it'll color the prompt for you, too. :) 2014-06-03T21:08:59Z antoszka: while I love vi(m), I prefer my readline operations to be emacsy 2014-06-03T21:09:06Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-03T21:09:11Z antoszka: (i'm fluent in both and I think modeless is better here) 2014-06-03T21:11:09Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2014-06-03T21:12:18Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T21:14:03Z mega1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-03T21:14:14Z alchemis7 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T21:14:33Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T21:17:32Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T21:18:29Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-03T21:19:05Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-06-03T21:19:05Z pjb: minion: memo for Sir_herrbatka: your add-one function is bad. Apart from the fact that it's destructive, it is schizophrene, not knowing if it increments or adds a carry. A non-destructive function has the advantage of requiring less memory, being simplier and easier to understand, and having simplier lambda-list, of being faster too: http://paste.lisp.org/+325U/1 2014-06-03T21:19:05Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Sir_herrbatka when he/she/it next speaks. 2014-06-03T21:20:17Z Shinmera quit (Quit: ZzzZ) 2014-06-03T21:20:59Z nialo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T21:21:17Z snikkers quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-03T21:22:35Z jchochli_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T21:23:01Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-03T21:23:09Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T21:24:49Z heddwch: Anybody know of anything preexisting like change-class but nondestructive? 2014-06-03T21:25:39Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-03T21:26:11Z Bicyclidine: Meaning, make an instance of some class based on an instance of another class? 2014-06-03T21:26:26Z heddwch: Bicyclidine: yea 2014-06-03T21:26:49Z ufd quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-03T21:26:56Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-06-03T21:27:01Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-06-03T21:27:13Z TristamWrk quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T21:27:35Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T21:28:11Z Poenikatu left #lisp 2014-06-03T21:28:27Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-03T21:29:08Z heddwch: change-class would work fine for what I need, I just like to avoid destructive operations unless necessary, and it seems like there would be something already for that behavior 2014-06-03T21:30:30Z FractalFive joined #lisp 2014-06-03T21:31:03Z Bicyclidine: not that i know of, at least. 2014-06-03T21:31:14Z Xach: heddwch: there isn't 2014-06-03T21:31:45Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T21:31:50Z heddwch: Bicyclidine, Xach : All right, thanks. In this case, just changing the class makes sense anyway, just feels dirty, no objective reason not to use change-class 2014-06-03T21:31:50Z Denommus: how to update the asdf version in clisp? 2014-06-03T21:32:16Z stassats: the reason change-class exists is that all the reference to the instance get updated 2014-06-03T21:32:46Z stassats: otherwise you can just make a new instance and copy the slots 2014-06-03T21:32:49Z renard_ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T21:32:52Z stassats: load the new version 2014-06-03T21:33:17Z stassats quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T21:33:32Z heddwch: Yea, I understand that. On a related note, anything in a utility library like a do-slots? Again, could just do it manually and/or write it myself, but.. 2014-06-03T21:33:47Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-03T21:34:22Z Bicyclidine: What would do-slots do? 2014-06-03T21:34:28Z jxv quit (Quit: QUIT) 2014-06-03T21:34:41Z heddwch: iterate over the slots of an object 2014-06-03T21:35:51Z jdz: all slots, always? 2014-06-03T21:35:54Z heddwch: Or rather keep me from (setf (my-slot object2) (my-slot object1)) for all my-slots 2014-06-03T21:36:11Z heddwch: when doing as I said in creating a new instance based off a previous instance 2014-06-03T21:36:11Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-03T21:36:14Z jdz: heddwch: isn't your other class supposed to have different set of slots? 2014-06-03T21:37:01Z heddwch: jdz: In this case, I'm wanting basically the same functionality of the existing class except different dispatch for a few methods. 2014-06-03T21:37:05Z stassats: copying through slots is slow, just bum the slot vector 2014-06-03T21:37:58Z heddwch: stassats: Googling based on that found me what I was wanting, thank you 2014-06-03T21:37:59Z jdz: heddwch: so your new class is a subclass? 2014-06-03T21:38:04Z heddwch: jdz: yep 2014-06-03T21:38:09Z stassats: that's not portable, but 2014-06-03T21:38:12Z stassats: minion: advice on portable 2014-06-03T21:38:13Z minion: #12017: It doesn't need to be portable, it just needs to work on your system. 2014-06-03T21:38:18Z heddwch: heh 2014-06-03T21:38:36Z heddwch: Portable is what I was hoping to achieve, but I understand the advice 2014-06-03T21:39:10Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-03T21:39:51Z stassats: the fastest portable way would be use standard-instance-access 2014-06-03T21:40:08Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T21:41:50Z jdz: heddwch: maybe you're looking for sheeple? 2014-06-03T21:42:03Z heddwch: jdz: sheeple? 2014-06-03T21:42:13Z jdz: heddwch: https://github.com/sykopomp/sheeple 2014-06-03T21:42:50Z heddwch: jdz: Thanks, that does look interesting and useful 2014-06-03T21:43:04Z FareWell quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-03T21:43:38Z jdz: heddwch: i have not used it, but it mentions "self" in the readme 2014-06-03T21:44:18Z heddwch: jdz: Heh, prototype-based object systems do solve some of the problems I'm commonly looking at 2014-06-03T21:46:27Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-03T21:46:33Z eni_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-03T21:50:11Z heddwch: stassats: Thanks again, looking into standard-instance-access, I found how I can do what I want using the MOP, which I hadn't poked at much previously. 2014-06-03T21:50:18Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-03T21:51:23Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-03T21:55:48Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2014-06-03T21:56:14Z renard_: hi 2014-06-03T21:56:59Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T21:57:04Z renard_: maybe someone ca explain me why first example does not work, and why the 2nd works fine from here http://paste.lisp.org/display/142772 2014-06-03T21:57:42Z jstypo joined #lisp 2014-06-03T21:57:48Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-03T21:58:00Z Bicyclidine: ,@%fct-lambda is the issue. 2014-06-03T21:58:06Z Bicyclidine: fct-lambda is a gensym, you can't splice it. 2014-06-03T21:58:28Z renard_: Bicyclidine: ok thus I can understand 2014-06-03T21:58:28Z Bicyclidine: Probably you want that whole binding to happen during macroexpansion? THat's what it looks like to me. 2014-06-03T21:58:35Z stassats: you are computing the lambda list at run-time 2014-06-03T21:58:37Z Bicyclidine: and that's what you do in the second version, right. 2014-06-03T21:58:40Z stassats: that ain't gonna work 2014-06-03T21:58:44Z renard_: is there any workarround or shoud I use the 2nd version ? 2014-06-03T21:59:04Z renard_: or maybe I don't need the gensym ? 2014-06-03T21:59:17Z stassats: hoist out the LET 2014-06-03T21:59:19Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-03T21:59:22Z oleo is now known as Guest93746 2014-06-03T21:59:22Z Bicyclidine: the second version is fine 2014-06-03T21:59:33Z Bicyclidine: if you want the let just do it before runtime of course 2014-06-03T21:59:35Z renard_: stassats: yes it is computed at runtime 2014-06-03T21:59:43Z Bicyclidine: that doesn't make sense. 2014-06-03T22:00:03Z Bicyclidine: the second version computes it at macroexpansion time, which does make sense. 2014-06-03T22:00:16Z stassats: unless you have time-travelling macros 2014-06-03T22:00:23Z renard_: ok thus the 2nd version is fine ? 2014-06-03T22:00:29Z Bicyclidine: second version looks okay to me 2014-06-03T22:00:31Z sunwukong joined #lisp 2014-06-03T22:00:40Z renard_: ok 2014-06-03T22:00:50Z jdz: macroexpand is your friend 2014-06-03T22:00:52Z renard_: thanks 2014-06-03T22:00:56Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T22:01:09Z jasom: technically you can splice a gensym, so long as it's the last item 2014-06-03T22:01:32Z White_Flame: in shortest term, your LOOP expression is not comma'd back to compile time in the 1st code 2014-06-03T22:01:34Z jasom: but it's probably not what you want 2014-06-03T22:01:35Z renard_: jdz: macrœxpan showed me it dœs not work but didnt tell me why 2014-06-03T22:01:55Z Bicyclidine: yeah it did, it said you couldn't splice a symbol. 2014-06-03T22:01:59Z Bicyclidine: well, couldn't use it as a list anyway. 2014-06-03T22:02:19Z renard_: Ok thus that was an understanding issue 2014-06-03T22:02:25Z Guest93746 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T22:02:52Z renard_: Ok nice thus I'd go with the 2nd version 2014-06-03T22:02:57Z JokerDoomWork joined #lisp 2014-06-03T22:03:14Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-03T22:03:30Z renard_: or idf there is a simple a clean way to put the argument list in a safe variable 2014-06-03T22:03:45Z jasom: actually I was wrong, a non-dotted backquoted list gets treated as `(x1 x2 x3 ... xn . nil) so you can't ever splice an atom 2014-06-03T22:04:01Z White_Flame: put your argument list calculation outside the backquoted expression to keep it the most clear 2014-06-03T22:04:24Z Bicyclidine: renard_: sure there is, just do (let ((arglist ...)) `(...)) 2014-06-03T22:04:46Z renard_: Bicyclidine ok nice thanks 2014-06-03T22:04:53Z renard_: I'll go with that 2014-06-03T22:05:09Z moore33 joined #lisp 2014-06-03T22:05:17Z renard_: thanks for the explainaitons and the quick ansers 2014-06-03T22:06:18Z seangrove quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T22:06:51Z White_Flame: jasom: iirc, different implementations treat those edge cases differently 2014-06-03T22:08:44Z jasom: White_Flame: it is permitted to do what I aid anyway 2014-06-03T22:08:45Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T22:08:59Z jasom: "`(x1 x2 x3 ... xn) may be interpreted to mean the same as the backquoted form `(x1 x2 x3 ... xn . nil)" 2014-06-03T22:09:34Z jasom: which means `(foo bar baz ,@some-atom) isn't conforming 2014-06-03T22:09:56Z White_Flame: it's the "so you can't ever splice an atom" part that differs, iirc. Some people were able to get `(foo bar ,@some-atom baz) to work in some cases 2014-06-03T22:10:16Z White_Flame doesn't feel like grepping the logs, though, so no specifics :) 2014-06-03T22:10:26Z jasom: White_Flame: okay "In a conforming program you can't ever splice an atom" (better?) 2014-06-03T22:10:47Z White_Flame: (is that a tautology?) 2014-06-03T22:11:48Z replcated joined #lisp 2014-06-03T22:13:06Z mattwest joined #lisp 2014-06-03T22:14:16Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-03T22:14:24Z ehaliewicz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-03T22:14:33Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-03T22:14:37Z sheilong quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-03T22:15:34Z stassats: jasom: you can splice nil 2014-06-03T22:15:44Z stassats: anywhere! 2014-06-03T22:16:00Z White_Flame: and anybody in #lisp is great at splicing hairs :) 2014-06-03T22:16:35Z ehaliewicz joined #lisp 2014-06-03T22:16:57Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-03T22:17:38Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-03T22:20:19Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T22:23:44Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T22:28:38Z Rptx joined #lisp 2014-06-03T22:33:26Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T22:34:19Z moore33 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T22:34:26Z sunwukong quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T22:34:30Z jchochli quit 2014-06-03T22:37:02Z owl-v-: minion: help 2014-06-03T22:37:02Z minion: There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms". 2014-06-03T22:48:21Z malice quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T22:51:38Z marsam is now known as marsbot 2014-06-03T22:51:53Z recl joined #lisp 2014-06-03T22:53:07Z pjb: heddwch: make-instance will do what you want. 2014-06-03T22:54:00Z heddwch: pjb: Eh? 2014-06-03T22:55:06Z pjb: change the class of an instance non destructively = make-instance. 2014-06-03T22:56:07Z mattwest quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-03T22:56:10Z heddwch: If by that you mean it'll make a new instance I can then put the values back into, then I understand that, yes 2014-06-03T22:56:44Z pjb: For example: (defclass cake () ((mass :initarg :mass :reader mass))) (defclass eaten-cake (shit) ((mass :initarg :mass :reader mass))) (let ((mine (make-instance 'cake :mass 0.75))) (make-instance 'eaten-cake :mass (mass mine))) 2014-06-03T22:57:00Z pjb: So you can have both your cake and eat it. 2014-06-03T22:57:34Z heddwch: That's... helpful, thanks. 2014-06-03T22:58:19Z pjb: You can use closer-mop to collect the slots and create the arg list for make-instance: (apply (function make-instance) new-class (slots-to-plist old-object)) 2014-06-03T22:58:47Z pjb: assuming some commonality. 2014-06-03T22:58:53Z stassats: that ain't gonna work 2014-06-03T22:59:26Z pjb: Depends on the old and new class definitions. 2014-06-03T22:59:45Z stassats: make-instance won't work with unbound slots 2014-06-03T22:59:59Z pjb: Mu. 2014-06-03T23:00:09Z stassats: allocate-instance + initialize-instance will 2014-06-03T23:00:35Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T23:00:42Z heddwch: Thanks, guys :) That's basically what I was going to try and derive from docs when I got to it 2014-06-03T23:01:33Z stassats: but you would use initialize-instance only if you want things to be as slow as possible 2014-06-03T23:02:01Z heddwch: heh 2014-06-03T23:02:17Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T23:02:25Z heddwch: It's not terribly performance-critical, a long-lived state object that might once in its lifetime need to be promoted 2014-06-03T23:02:49Z stassats: and i really meen reinitialize-instance, not initialize-instance 2014-06-03T23:03:05Z heddwch: ah 2014-06-03T23:03:22Z stassats: but you wouldn't use that either, so, who cares 2014-06-03T23:05:20Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:06:48Z varjag_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-06-03T23:07:13Z stassats: heddwch: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142773 2014-06-03T23:08:25Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T23:09:17Z pjb: heddwch: the problem would be to leave slots unbound in the first place. 2014-06-03T23:09:21Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:09:28Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-03T23:09:40Z pjb: heddwch: you get much less headaches when initializing all your slots. Therefore you can just use make-instance. 2014-06-03T23:10:10Z stassats: clhs s-m 2014-06-03T23:10:11Z specbot: Matches: slot-makunbound, slot-missing, standard-method, symbol-macrolet. 2014-06-03T23:10:15Z stassats: clhs slot-makunbound 2014-06-03T23:10:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_slt_ma.htm 2014-06-03T23:10:53Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:11:17Z c11xa: sbcl is better than clisp 2014-06-03T23:11:58Z c11xa: i still like clisp though because of less errors 2014-06-03T23:13:02Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:13:33Z replcate` joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:15:39Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:15:52Z MoALTz_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-06-03T23:16:07Z anunnaki joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:16:11Z asedeno_ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:16:12Z decent: so I should try sbcl instead of clisp at my extreme start of learning? :) 2014-06-03T23:16:12Z ft_ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:16:24Z otwierac1 joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:16:29Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T23:16:32Z mikaelj_ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:16:34Z theBlack1ragon joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:16:35Z j0ni__ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:16:35Z aerique_ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:16:45Z stassats: c11xa: what do you mean, less errors? 2014-06-03T23:16:57Z Adeon__ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:17:04Z fortitude quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-03T23:17:32Z pchrist_ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:18:55Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:20:02Z abbe_ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:20:21Z BinaryMcAwesome_ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:20:27Z justinmcp_ quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2014-06-03T23:20:27Z __main__ quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2014-06-03T23:20:27Z aerique quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2014-06-03T23:20:28Z pchrist quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2014-06-03T23:20:28Z Neptu quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2014-06-03T23:20:28Z BinaryMcAwesome quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-03T23:20:28Z abbe quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-03T23:20:30Z Neptu_ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:20:30Z asedeno quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T23:20:31Z anunnaki_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T23:20:31Z ft quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T23:20:31Z theBlackDragon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T23:20:31Z j0ni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T23:20:31Z sellout quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-06-03T23:20:31Z Adeon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T23:20:32Z theBlack1ragon is now known as theBlackDragon 2014-06-03T23:20:35Z justinmcp joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:20:53Z sellout joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:20:56Z abbe_ is now known as abbe 2014-06-03T23:21:04Z sellout is now known as Guest86858 2014-06-03T23:21:08Z ft_ is now known as ft 2014-06-03T23:21:19Z _main_ joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:21:44Z stassats: and the actual change-class is quite slow, it could use some caching, but no (?) implementations do that 2014-06-03T23:22:07Z stassats: so using it for some logic in the program is not really a good idea 2014-06-03T23:22:28Z segv- quit (Ping timeout: 243 seconds) 2014-06-03T23:22:44Z BinaryMcAwesome_ is now known as BinaryMcAwesome 2014-06-03T23:22:50Z BinaryMcAwesome quit (Changing host) 2014-06-03T23:22:50Z BinaryMcAwesome joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:24:01Z _main_ is now known as __main__ 2014-06-03T23:24:40Z replcated quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T23:24:40Z mikaelj quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T23:24:40Z otwieracz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-03T23:24:40Z otwierac1 is now known as otwieracz 2014-06-03T23:25:11Z Sgeo joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:25:23Z c11xa: stassats: it just seems like sbcl is always giving warnings about something or other, probably because i just built a new version 2014-06-03T23:25:37Z c11xa: clisp is more slow but steady charactered 2014-06-03T23:25:48Z stassats: and not because your code is non-conforming? 2014-06-03T23:27:01Z clop2 joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:27:21Z JuanitoJons quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T23:27:45Z c11xa: my code isnt even nonconforming, but sbcl mostly shows library related errors 2014-06-03T23:28:03Z c11xa: compiling # completed without its input file #P"/usr/share/common-lisp/source/alexandria/LICENCE" 2014-06-03T23:28:20Z stassats: that's coming from ASDF, not SBCL 2014-06-03T23:28:22Z c11xa: clisp doesnt care 2014-06-03T23:29:23Z c11xa: i guess its dwarfede by clisps ridiculously huge banner anyway 2014-06-03T23:29:41Z Bicyclidine: i think there's a startup option to remove the banner. 2014-06-03T23:33:02Z c11xa: probably but i'm switching to sbcl 2014-06-03T23:33:11Z heddwch: stassats: thanks! And I figured it would be slow, yea, but like I said, it's a long-lived object that will only be changed one direction at most once, and the updating of all references is somewhat important in this application. 2014-06-03T23:33:19Z c11xa: i need to stick with something to learn and because i want to use sockets 2014-06-03T23:34:07Z heddwch: pjb: I can't quite parse what you mean about 'the problem would be to leave slots unbound in the first place' 2014-06-03T23:34:13Z joneshf-laptop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T23:34:58Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-03T23:35:38Z oleo__: morning 2014-06-03T23:36:03Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:36:34Z jonh joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:41:24Z aretecode quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T23:44:15Z the8thbit joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:48:49Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T23:49:04Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:49:48Z aeth joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:50:05Z n0n0 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-03T23:51:09Z pjb: heddwch: the problem is that of having two objects, with slots in common, and to reproduce the state of the slots in common from one object to the other. 2014-06-03T23:51:23Z pjb: Some slots can be unbound, others can be bound to some value. 2014-06-03T23:51:58Z pjb: heddwch: make-instance does just what initialize-instance does. This may lead to different slot configurations for the two objects. 2014-06-03T23:51:58Z stassats: change-class prescribes what should be done 2014-06-03T23:52:22Z stassats: and make-instance also doesn't deal the same way with :class allocated slots than change-class 2014-06-03T23:52:30Z eudoxia quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-03T23:52:31Z pjb: We don't care, WE DO NOT WANT TO USE change-class SINCE IT IS DESTRUCTIVE! 2014-06-03T23:52:51Z pjb: stassats: the problem is that of obtaining an object of class new-class without destroying the object of class old-class! 2014-06-03T23:54:03Z heddwch: pjb: Ah, okay. 2014-06-03T23:55:11Z heddwch: And I wasn't necessarily trying to make it general and cover all corner cases. I just have a simple class with nothing but default slot allocations, and need the same thing plus two slots. 2014-06-03T23:55:13Z pjb: So if you had objects with unbound slots, you'd rather implement a copy-common-slots function to do that. 2014-06-03T23:55:38Z the8thbit quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-03T23:55:43Z pjb: You could also add a keyword parameter to initialize-instance of the subclass: 2014-06-03T23:56:43Z oleo__: morning 2014-06-03T23:56:48Z oleo__: ups 2014-06-03T23:56:54Z pjb: (defmethod initialize-instance ((self subclass) &key (prototype nil prototypep) &allow-other-keys) (call-next-method) (when prototypep (setf (slot-value self 'slot1) (slot-value prototype 'slot1) … )) self) 2014-06-03T23:57:30Z pjb: (make-instance'subclass :prototype example-object) 2014-06-03T23:57:31Z lduros quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-03T23:58:38Z jxv joined #lisp 2014-06-03T23:59:20Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-03T23:59:24Z heddwch: ahh, I see 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defun https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/276f8b5474728ff99f6a into defmethods, Here are my 2 successes and two I still could use help with: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/dcec01d0668eeb190e63 the gist is commented, but basically I would like to call the 2 that did not work this way. The first one call with no params but by same name, the second, call while making the first pa 2014-06-04T01:48:21Z joe-w-bimedina: ram be a cffi :int. Any guidance is much appreciated 2014-06-04T01:49:38Z lemonodor joined #lisp 2014-06-04T01:56:08Z madist quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-04T01:57:05Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-04T02:00:45Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-04T02:02:44Z lemonodor quit (Quit: lemonodor) 2014-06-04T02:04:37Z madist joined #lisp 2014-06-04T02:04:39Z malkomalko quit 2014-06-04T02:06:01Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2014-06-04T02:06:38Z replcated joined #lisp 2014-06-04T02:08:25Z replcated quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-04T02:10:07Z MoALTz__ joined #lisp 2014-06-04T02:13:31Z MoALTz_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-04T02:16:33Z gabot quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-04T02:16:44Z ianmcorvidae|alt joined #lisp 2014-06-04T02:17:03Z gabot joined #lisp 2014-06-04T02:17:49Z ianmcorvidae quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-04T02:20:46Z tinyblak quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T02:20:55Z nop0x07bc quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-04T02:23:06Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-04T02:23:37Z JokerDoomWork joined #lisp 2014-06-04T02:25:49Z harish joined #lisp 2014-06-04T02:26:30Z araujo joined #lisp 2014-06-04T02:26:48Z chu joined #lisp 2014-06-04T02:31:24Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2014-06-04T02:34:29Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-04T02:35:13Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-04T02:40:25Z jxv joined #lisp 2014-06-04T02:40:33Z n0n0 joined #lisp 2014-06-04T02:44:51Z n0n0 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-04T02:45:13Z bobbysmith007: joe-w-bimedina: what do you mean by cffi :int? 2014-06-04T02:45:44Z joe-w-bimedina: The cffi :int type, do you know cffi? 2014-06-04T02:46:02Z Bike: that's a C type, not a lisp class. 2014-06-04T02:46:02Z Vivitron joined #lisp 2014-06-04T02:46:12Z bobbysmith007: joe-w-bimedina: somewhat, but cffi :int doesnt name anything... methods are specialized on lisp types of which cffi :int is not one 2014-06-04T02:46:37Z bobbysmith007: well actually methods are specialized on lisp classes (not types) 2014-06-04T02:46:52Z joe-w-bimedina: I know, thats why i could use help, anyway to make sure the input entered is bit or int 2014-06-04T02:46:56Z tinyblak quit 2014-06-04T02:47:00Z Bike: the lisp integer class. 2014-06-04T02:47:31Z Bike: note that that includes bignums and negative numbers, e.g. 2014-06-04T02:47:46Z joe-w-bimedina: would it be (arg int) then 2014-06-04T02:47:51Z nop0x07bc joined #lisp 2014-06-04T02:47:55Z joe-w-bimedina: (arg integer) ? 2014-06-04T02:48:08Z bobbysmith007: joe-w-bimedina: (arg integer) is a valid method specializer, you may need to do more checking inside 2014-06-04T02:48:13Z bobbysmith007: to make sure its the type of integer you want 2014-06-04T02:48:34Z joe-w-bimedina: thank you and what about calling the one with no params 2014-06-04T02:48:38Z joe-w-bimedina: ? 2014-06-04T02:48:39Z bobbysmith007: also currently your size0 case talks of being called with no parameters, but size must take one param 2014-06-04T02:48:49Z bobbysmith007: are you calling it with an explicit nil? 2014-06-04T02:49:10Z Bike: well the function is supposed to be https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/276f8b5474728ff99f6a 2014-06-04T02:49:38Z bobbysmith007: gotcha 2014-06-04T02:49:41Z Bike: but yeah, you can't specialize on &optional or &rest args. 2014-06-04T02:49:42Z JuanDaugherty is fascinated about how long it took to capice what was MPFR was, the fp equivalent of gmp, mostly because of phonetic slurring from the p to a b. 2014-06-04T02:49:55Z Bike: size0 looks like a different function, anyway 2014-06-04T02:50:32Z joe-w-bimedina: it is , it creates an uninitialized size object 2014-06-04T02:50:37Z bobbysmith007: joe-w-bimedina: I guess to make it match the other function you would want to specialize on (arg null) 2014-06-04T02:51:01Z Bike: i can't conceptualize what this function is supposed to do. size of two arguments? i don't get it. 2014-06-04T02:51:34Z joe-w-bimedina: ok I was trying nil...it creates a size object, width/height, to be passed 2014-06-04T02:52:19Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-04T02:52:56Z bobbysmith007: joe-w-bimedina: I agree with bike this function seems very odd... it seems like you want dispatch on the number of arguments as well as the types (which is not what multimethods do, though they can be rangled) 2014-06-04T02:53:21Z snikkers quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-04T02:54:29Z joe-w-bimedina: just would like to call a big number of functions by the name size, withh all having the same overhead(speed hit) 2014-06-04T02:54:44Z Bike: "make a new size object with these values" and "retrieve the size object for this object" are distinct operations in my mind. 2014-06-04T02:54:45Z bobbysmith007: joe-w-bimedina: what are arg1 and arg2 expected to be 2014-06-04T02:55:55Z bobbysmith007: i mean I see the types there... but im still a bit befuddled, let me think mroe 2014-06-04T02:56:41Z joe-w-bimedina: width/height , a couple of ints. So I can create a matrix like (create-matrix (size 3 3)) and get a 3x3 matrix 2014-06-04T02:56:59Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-04T02:57:04Z bobbysmith007: ok... that makes a bit more sense then 2014-06-04T02:57:49Z n0n0 joined #lisp 2014-06-04T02:57:50Z joe-w-bimedina: of the size defmethods 2 are not even of the type Size, the top 2 are, but the bottom two wrap the size members of the class Mat and Range, 2014-06-04T02:58:19Z Bike: right, those seem like distinct operations to me. 2014-06-04T02:58:27Z bobbysmith007: yeah... It think you want `size-of` method which takes things and tells you the size and an `create-matrix` function that takes dimentions as bike says 2014-06-04T02:58:31Z snikkers joined #lisp 2014-06-04T03:01:09Z joe-w-bimedina: it is a specific OpenCV class named Size I am wrapping it it has a no params and a 2 params version. The Mat::size is a size member of the class Mat as is Range::size.. I'm creating the freedom to call everything in Lisp as in OpenCv, so many things called by same name 2014-06-04T03:01:46Z heddwch: joe-w-bimedina: Ah, overloading isn't quite as blessed a thing in the lisp world as the C++ world 2014-06-04T03:01:59Z bobbysmith007: ok... well, you probably still dont want multimethods then... they definitely do not allow dispatch on number of args 2014-06-04T03:02:15Z Bike: joe-w-bimedina: so have a different size0 and size2. all calls to them will be distinct anyway. 2014-06-04T03:02:34Z Bike: well, more like size1 and size2. 2014-06-04T03:02:54Z heddwch: D: Or meaningful names 2014-06-04T03:03:02Z Bike: or that. 2014-06-04T03:03:16Z heddwch: lol 2014-06-04T03:03:45Z bobbysmith007: joe-w-bimedina: if size is a class, why are you modelling it as methods? Size is supposed to be a class with two different constructors? 2014-06-04T03:04:20Z joe-w-bimedina: I would love a perfect solution to this, What you gave me seems to work, everything else I can fill in the cracks with defuns that dispatch on multiple cond statements. I'm doing both, for the most speed you use size1, size2, at the repl , just use size 2014-06-04T03:05:02Z axion: why not s1, s2...it's even less to type :P 2014-06-04T03:05:32Z heddwch sobs 2014-06-04T03:07:05Z joe-w-bimedina: no one would understand it, this is made so you can look at c++ OpenCV code you want in lisp and easily convert it. So all my function names are the same as in OpenCV except - instead of _ and all lower case, have more work to do on that though 2014-06-04T03:07:19Z Gooder joined #lisp 2014-06-04T03:07:45Z axion: that was sarcasm based on your current ambiguous naming conventions 2014-06-04T03:09:11Z joe-w-bimedina: sorry I missed the emoticon....funny:) 2014-06-04T03:11:41Z joe-w-bimedina: not too worried though, I got a couple big dogs on my team already, and I see the answers you guys post, so not worried at all 2014-06-04T03:13:51Z heddwch: Dogs are pretty good at ambiguous naming, too. They massively overload their three noises or so 2014-06-04T03:14:39Z joe-w-bimedina: amen 2014-06-04T03:14:59Z heddwch: :) 2014-06-04T03:18:23Z JokerDoomWork quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-04T03:18:54Z Eva___stall quit (Quit: jIRCii - http://www.oldschoolirc.com) 2014-06-04T03:18:57Z cross quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-04T03:20:20Z n0n0 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-04T03:22:23Z cross joined #lisp 2014-06-04T03:22:47Z cross quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-04T03:22:49Z __class__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-04T03:25:05Z McMAGIC--Copy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T03:25:05Z MouldyOldBones quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T03:25:05Z zwer quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2014-06-04T03:25:05Z wgreenhouse quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-04T03:25:06Z Adlai quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-04T03:29:16Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-04T03:30:43Z foom quit (Ping timeout: 240 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2014-06-04T07:34:27Z therik quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-04T07:34:35Z Zhivago: There are a couple of errors in your thinking. 2014-06-04T07:34:47Z Zhivago: Firstly, you cannot call methods -- you call generic functions. 2014-06-04T07:35:06Z segv- left #lisp 2014-06-04T07:35:09Z Zhivago: Since you call generic functions, there is only one interface for a given generic function. 2014-06-04T07:35:09Z segv- joined #lisp 2014-06-04T07:35:23Z Zhivago: If you want multiple interfaces, then make multiple generic functions. 2014-06-04T07:35:26Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-04T07:35:41Z joe-w-bimedina: I have to instantiate a Size object that is uninitialized like this (size). Alot of function I have expect that. but I have many C++ size members to wrap with different numbers params and I would like to call all by the same name 2014-06-04T07:36:06Z joe-w-bimedina: can I make multipl generic functions with the same name 2014-06-04T07:36:09Z Zhivago: Then have a _function_ named size that calls a variety of _generic functions_ depending on the arity. 2014-06-04T07:36:12Z Zhivago: No. 2014-06-04T07:36:24Z Zhivago: Just like you can't have multiple functions with the same name. 2014-06-04T07:36:38Z Zhivago: Which shouldn't be a surprise, because generic functions are functions. 2014-06-04T07:37:00Z Zhivago: But what you're probably trying to do is probably a terrible idea, which is why you're having trouble doing it. 2014-06-04T07:37:10Z joe-w-bimedina: is there any trickery that can help make this happen 2014-06-04T07:37:11Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-06-04T07:37:23Z Zhivago: I suggest strongly that you focus on one function having one semantic meaning. 2014-06-04T07:37:44Z mega1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-04T07:37:46Z Zhivago: And it seems like you're trying the opposite. 2014-06-04T07:38:25Z Zhivago: elephant-size and file-size are not the same kind of size. 2014-06-04T07:38:32Z nvmme joined #lisp 2014-06-04T07:38:45Z Zhivago: So don't try to squash them together or you'll just make a mess. 2014-06-04T07:40:13Z joe-w-bimedina: I would just like it to be if I have a 2 classes in C++ with a member named size and I would call like this in C++ file.size() or elephant.size() that in lisp I could call as (size file) (size elephant). Seems right to me 2014-06-04T07:40:27Z Zhivago: That's because you're not thinking it through. 2014-06-04T07:40:46Z Zhivago: If you did that, what would the SIZE function mean? 2014-06-04T07:41:00Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: also, you're trying something worse. you want (size) to create an instance of the size class, and (size foo) be an accessor for the object foo 2014-06-04T07:41:08Z Beetny joined #lisp 2014-06-04T07:41:23Z joe-w-bimedina: just like in C++, a varying thing 2014-06-04T07:41:31Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: are you trying to write cl or no? 2014-06-04T07:41:35Z Lebbe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-04T07:41:39Z Zhivago: In C++ you have Elephant::size and File::size ... 2014-06-04T07:41:44Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: if you are, then you'd better try learning how it is done in c++ 2014-06-04T07:41:50Z Zhivago: Think about _why_ that's the case. 2014-06-04T07:42:01Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: vs. how it is done in cl 2014-06-04T07:42:26Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: in c++, Size and size are not the same. in cl, they are. that is why (size) and (size foo) are not what you want to do in cl. 2014-06-04T07:42:37Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-04T07:43:00Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: call your constructor make-size and use size as the name of the accessor 2014-06-04T07:43:14Z Lebbe joined #lisp 2014-06-04T07:43:22Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: if you intend to "i want" once more, think again. 2014-06-04T07:46:30Z arenz joined #lisp 2014-06-04T07:46:33Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-04T07:47:22Z joe-w-bimedina: I would like:) to save as much typing as possible, ...but since it is all lowercase I though that would be nice to call this way, if no one else has a way to make this happen I think your idea is a valid solution, so thank you...so if i had a function size that I can call as (size) or as (size 1 2) it would just be (make-size) or (make-size 1 2)...and this is what most Lisp programmers, would expect to see in a professional library right? 2014-06-04T07:48:36Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: i don't understand what you're asking. 2014-06-04T07:49:25Z Zhivago: joe: Save typing by appropriate abstraction. 2014-06-04T07:49:43Z Zhivago: If you're typing the same thing over and over, produce an operator for that operation. 2014-06-04T07:50:51Z joe-w-bimedina: H4ns: I have a bunch of constructors that accept either no params or 2 params like size, that led to the (make-size) or (make-size 1 2) question 2014-06-04T07:51:12Z joe-w-bimedina: Zhivago: what is appropriate abstraction 2014-06-04T07:51:30Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: my impulse is to suggest keyword arguments 2014-06-04T07:52:51Z huza quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-04T07:54:08Z joe-w-bimedina: H4ns: can you create for me a example with my 2 constructors(size) with keyword arguments, like your suggesting, that would help give me confidence to convert the rest of my code 2014-06-04T07:54:49Z joe-w-bimedina: Zhivago: can you give me an example or the operators your refferring to or introductory link to creating them 2014-06-04T07:55:25Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: look up keyword arguments in the clhs or your lisp book. if your intent is to write a "professional cl library", you'll have to know more cl than you do. 2014-06-04T07:55:28Z joe-w-bimedina: of the operators 2014-06-04T07:55:43Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-04T07:56:04Z Zhivago: It depends on the operation that you mean ... 2014-06-04T07:56:25Z Zhivago: Think of something that you're typing over and over, for example. 2014-06-04T07:56:35Z joe-w-bimedina: I know keyword arguments but I didn't know your intention as to how they would work with the size constructors I posted since they accept only numbers or nothing 2014-06-04T07:56:37Z Zhivago: Now think of what that thing you're typing means. 2014-06-04T07:57:03Z Zhivago: Then define a function or macro to express that meaning in a more compact form. 2014-06-04T07:57:27Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-04T07:57:59Z joe-w-bimedina: so when you said operator, I would look up operators on CLHS, that was just an abstract term right? 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That is the normal convention in CL. 2014-06-04T08:38:43Z madis_ joined #lisp 2014-06-04T08:38:51Z joe-w-bimedina: Thank you so much! I have some code to convert and that really gave me the confidence to do so 2014-06-04T08:38:57Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-04T08:39:01Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-04T08:39:02Z doomlord_1: are there any lisps with deterministic memory management 2014-06-04T08:39:05Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-04T08:40:18Z banjara quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-04T08:40:36Z Zhivago: Probably. Why do you want it? 2014-06-04T08:40:43Z madist quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-04T08:41:26Z shridhar joined #lisp 2014-06-04T08:42:12Z aster` left #lisp 2014-06-04T08:45:36Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T08:48:08Z malice joined #lisp 2014-06-04T08:48:34Z varjag quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-04T08:48:34Z mega1 quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-04T08:48:34Z prxq quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-04T08:48:35Z echo-area quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-04T08:48:35Z ThePhoeron quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-04T08:48:35Z nop0x07bc quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-04T08:48:35Z joe-w-bimedina quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-04T08:48:35Z Bike quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-04T08:48:35Z devon quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-04T08:48:35Z ltbarcly quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-04T08:48:35Z sellout quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-04T08:48:35Z justinmcp quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-04T08:48:35Z segmond quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-04T08:48:35Z matko quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-04T08:48:35Z 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derp 2014-06-04T12:26:08Z Fizzixnerd: thank you 2014-06-04T12:26:15Z Fizzixnerd: lisp is so damn cool 2014-06-04T12:26:28Z Fizzixnerd: I just installed clesh, it's great 2014-06-04T12:26:32Z stassats: but you can't change interpretation of tokens 2014-06-04T12:26:44Z Fizzixnerd: what do you mean by that? 2014-06-04T12:26:59Z Fizzixnerd: oh 2014-06-04T12:27:00Z Fizzixnerd: nvm 2014-06-04T12:27:08Z Fizzixnerd: I get it 2014-06-04T12:27:13Z stassats: clhs 2.3 2014-06-04T12:27:13Z specbot: Interpretation of Tokens: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_c.htm 2014-06-04T12:27:19Z Fizzixnerd: jesus 2014-06-04T12:27:28Z Fizzixnerd: you know the section number off by heart 2014-06-04T12:27:51Z stassats: i may or may not have looked it up 2014-06-04T12:27:56Z Fizzixnerd: oh haha 2014-06-04T12:28:08Z Fizzixnerd: okay, so here's the plan 2014-06-04T12:28:19Z ThePhoeron joined #lisp 2014-06-04T12:28:37Z Fizzixnerd: I set a macro on #\( so that I can access the input filestream and print out #line information 2014-06-04T12:29:59Z Fizzixnerd: I really wish common lisp had something like "get-current-line-number" that was implementation defined in what it returns 2014-06-04T12:30:53Z prxq: what would you use that for? 2014-06-04T12:31:03Z JokerDoomWork quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-04T12:31:04Z Zhivago: Well, you could use a gray-stream to do that. 2014-06-04T12:31:37Z Fizzixnerd: Let me think about that for a second 2014-06-04T12:31:38Z ThePhoeron quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-04T12:31:52Z Fizzixnerd: becuase the way I'm actually doing the parsing is directly wih function 2014-06-04T12:31:53Z Fizzixnerd: s 2014-06-04T12:32:21Z Fizzixnerd: normally I parse out of a quoted list, but I could easily adapt to a stream 2014-06-04T12:32:29Z sohail joined #lisp 2014-06-04T12:32:31Z Fizzixnerd: and the stream reader could get the line information for me 2014-06-04T12:32:49Z Fizzixnerd: prxq: I'm writing a lisp-like-C -> C translator and want it to be source level debuggable with gdb 2014-06-04T12:32:55Z Zhivago: Instead of the reader, ask the stream. 2014-06-04T12:33:35Z Fizzixnerd: I meant "stream reader" as in the function I would write that would give me stuff from the stream 2014-06-04T12:33:42Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-04T12:33:49Z huza joined #lisp 2014-06-04T12:33:50Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-04T12:33:58Z Fizzixnerd: is there a good resource for learning about gray streams I could look at? 2014-06-04T12:34:53Z Fizzixnerd: oh man, I'm getting excited again, thanks so much Zhivago 2014-06-04T12:35:05Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-04T12:35:39Z Fizzixnerd: if anyone cares (and I doubt you do, since this isn't exactly an original idea for a project), the project is on github.com/Fizzixnerd/cicl 2014-06-04T12:36:15Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-04T12:36:40Z jsnell: I don't see gray streams being particularly useful for this 2014-06-04T12:36:52Z Fizzixnerd: oh? 2014-06-04T12:36:55Z stassats: is it pronounced the same way as https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/ ? 2014-06-04T12:37:07Z Fizzixnerd: stassats, unfortunately, yes 2014-06-04T12:37:15Z Fizzixnerd: stassats, should I change the name? 2014-06-04T12:37:39Z stassats: it's a long tradition of having homonym names 2014-06-04T12:37:43Z ThePhoeron joined #lisp 2014-06-04T12:38:07Z Fizzixnerd: yay for lisp's long tradition of being confusing! 2014-06-04T12:38:08Z Fizzixnerd: :D 2014-06-04T12:38:27Z Fizzixnerd: wait 2014-06-04T12:38:31Z Fizzixnerd: did you mean homophone? 2014-06-04T12:39:13Z stassats: yes 2014-06-04T12:39:20Z Fizzixnerd: excellent 2014-06-04T12:39:47Z justinmcp quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-04T12:40:07Z stassats: maybe one is pronounced like cycle and another like sickle? 2014-06-04T12:40:21Z Fizzixnerd: I would be down for calling mine "cycle" 2014-06-04T12:40:36Z Fizzixnerd: since I originally wrote it to write a lisp interpreter in C 2014-06-04T12:40:36Z ThePhoeron quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-04T12:40:46Z stassats: i don't really know how SICL is pronounced 2014-06-04T12:40:46Z Fizzixnerd: but then didn't want to write it in C so I made a lisp 2014-06-04T12:40:57Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-04T12:41:14Z juanlas joined #lisp 2014-06-04T12:41:29Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-04T12:41:37Z Fizzixnerd: does SICL completely work? like does it import the symbols it doesn't implement yet? 2014-06-04T12:41:46Z lyanchih_ joined #lisp 2014-06-04T12:41:57Z stassats: just wait for beach to show up 2014-06-04T12:42:04Z ikki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-04T12:42:15Z mega1 joined #lisp 2014-06-04T12:42:26Z Fizzixnerd: that's his irc name 2014-06-04T12:42:27Z Fizzixnerd: ? 2014-06-04T12:42:30Z stassats: yes 2014-06-04T12:42:32Z Fizzixnerd: cool 2014-06-04T12:42:39Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-04T12:42:45Z stassats: and other good names: psycl 2014-06-04T12:42:55Z Fizzixnerd: oooo 2014-06-04T12:43:06Z Fizzixnerd: the nice thing about cicl was that it's "C in Common Lisp" 2014-06-04T12:43:19Z Fizzixnerd: but that isn't really that true 2014-06-04T12:43:23Z Fizzixnerd: it's C with lisp syntax 2014-06-04T12:43:23Z stassats: no, i mean of other people to write a completely different thing and have it sound the same 2014-06-04T12:43:28Z stassats: s/of/for/ 2014-06-04T12:43:35Z stassats: like closure/clojure/clozure 2014-06-04T12:43:35Z Fizzixnerd: oooo 2014-06-04T12:43:46Z Fizzixnerd: I gotya 2014-06-04T12:44:04Z Fizzixnerd: so you're an sbcl maintainer, right? 2014-06-04T12:44:27Z stassats: committer? contributor? something like that 2014-06-04T12:44:38Z Fizzixnerd: is it fun? 2014-06-04T12:44:44Z jsnell: it's easy enough to map from the file-position to a row / column, so the gray stream is just a bit of a distraction. getting the readtable right is actually trickier. how tricky depends on how high fidelity you want 2014-06-04T12:45:18Z Fizzixnerd: All I want is per-form line-level fidelity 2014-06-04T12:45:19Z Fizzixnerd: no columns 2014-06-04T12:45:26Z stassats: Fizzixnerd: sure, "my program is too slow! i know, i'll change the compiler" 2014-06-04T12:45:40Z Fizzixnerd: hehe 2014-06-04T12:45:58Z ThePhoeron joined #lisp 2014-06-04T12:46:03Z Fizzixnerd: I'm such a lisp scrub... but it's such a breathtakingly amazing language that I just can't help but come back to it over and over 2014-06-04T12:46:41Z jsnell: the columns fall out trivially from dealing with forms. but there are forms that are trickier, such as dotted lists, #=, and atoms 2014-06-04T12:47:13Z Fizzixnerd: luckily I won't have many atoms, don't have any dotted lists, and I don't even know what #= is 2014-06-04T12:47:17Z stassats: i'd write my own reader 2014-06-04T12:47:27Z jsnell: if you're using the lisp reader, there's no way to distinguish between two FOO symbols in the same file in different places 2014-06-04T12:47:27Z Fizzixnerd: I think I might do just that 2014-06-04T12:47:29Z stassats: clhs #n 2014-06-04T12:47:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dh.htm 2014-06-04T12:47:37Z stassats: clhs #1 2014-06-04T12:47:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dh.htm 2014-06-04T12:47:47Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-04T12:47:53Z stassats: clhs #= 2014-06-04T12:47:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dho.htm 2014-06-04T12:48:18Z Fizzixnerd: "reference to = label" 2014-06-04T12:48:30Z dandersen joined #lisp 2014-06-04T12:48:31Z jsnell: yes, it'd be pretty much insane for a new language to choose the CL reader model for anything except a first prototype 2014-06-04T12:48:56Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-06-04T12:49:07Z jsnell: and a first prototype wouldn't need to worry about line numbers :-) 2014-06-04T12:49:16Z stassats: i have a reader for CL and for each token i save where it started reading and where it ended 2014-06-04T12:49:19Z yrk quit (Changing 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2014-06-04T12:52:22Z Fizzixnerd: can you nest cl packages? 2014-06-04T12:52:27Z stassats: not really 2014-06-04T12:52:31Z Fizzixnerd: :( 2014-06-04T12:54:09Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-04T12:54:10Z ikki joined #lisp 2014-06-04T12:55:03Z ramus joined #lisp 2014-06-04T12:55:16Z ThePhoeron joined #lisp 2014-06-04T12:55:37Z hugoduncan joined #lisp 2014-06-04T12:55:39Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-04T12:56:16Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-04T12:56:49Z attila_lendvai1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-04T12:57:31Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-04T12:57:47Z zickzackv joined #lisp 2014-06-04T12:58:52Z Fizzixnerd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-04T12:58:52Z ThePhoeron quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-04T12:59:15Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-04T13:00:05Z mega1` joined #lisp 2014-06-04T13:00:20Z malkomalko joined #lisp 2014-06-04T13:00:59Z c11xa is now known as c3w 2014-06-04T13:01:40Z mega1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 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Is there any way I can create a C++ short to give to it for testing, using Lisp or CFFI, or do I need to create a C helper function and use that to create the short 2014-06-04T13:11:33Z TristamWrk joined #lisp 2014-06-04T13:11:33Z TristamWrk quit (Changing host) 2014-06-04T13:11:33Z TristamWrk joined #lisp 2014-06-04T13:12:13Z joe-w-bimedina: the binding is getting an error and it seems to be related to that 2014-06-04T13:15:05Z stassats: try 1 2014-06-04T13:15:34Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2014-06-04T13:15:37Z malkomalko quit 2014-06-04T13:15:38Z joe-w-bimedina: I did 1 2 3 and 4 so far 2014-06-04T13:17:33Z joe-w-bimedina: these work typedef Vec Vec8i; typedef Vec Vec2f; and the bindings are exactly the same as the one I posted. also uchar hasn't worked either I get unhandled memory fault when mem-arefing it 2014-06-04T13:18:13Z stassats: a vector of shorts is surely packed differently than a vector of ints 2014-06-04T13:18:49Z joe-w-bimedina: I did use (mem-aref a :short) 2014-06-04T13:19:27Z joe-w-bimedina: should I try to get at it with mem-ref and specify the offset manually? 2014-06-04T13:19:53Z stassats: (foreign-type-size :short) => 2 sounds about right 2014-06-04T13:20:06Z stassats: but try with a different offset 2014-06-04T13:20:08Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-06-04T13:21:16Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-04T13:26:08Z sroy joined #lisp 2014-06-04T13:26:21Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-06-04T13:27:37Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-04T13:28:12Z kanru` joined #lisp 2014-06-04T13:29:12Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-04T13:29:24Z heddwch_ joined #lisp 2014-06-04T13:32:03Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-04T13:32:03Z heddwch_ is now known as heddwch 2014-06-04T13:38:07Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-06-04T13:38:35Z oleo: morning 2014-06-04T13:39:22Z justinmcp joined #lisp 2014-06-04T13:39:32Z Gooder` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T13:39:45Z eudoxia: good morning 2014-06-04T13:39:49Z Gooder` joined #lisp 2014-06-04T13:43:40Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-04T13:44:03Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-06-04T13:44:55Z JokerDoomWork joined #lisp 2014-06-04T13:46:16Z qiemem joined #lisp 2014-06-04T13:46:36Z ahungry_ joined #lisp 2014-06-04T13:48:39Z joe-w-bimedina: strassats: is it important to use (foreign-type-size :short) in my code or can I just multiply user input by 2 2014-06-04T13:48:47Z francogrex joined #lisp 2014-06-04T13:49:19Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2014-06-04T13:50:59Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-04T13:51:06Z francogrex: Hi, is there a cool way to embed C code directly into lisp and get it evalauted? (other than cffi which requires a compilation of a shared lib; vacitis which has problems with including external headers; or ecl...) 2014-06-04T13:51:21Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-04T13:51:22Z francogrex: feels silly re-reading my own question 2014-06-04T13:51:48Z gigetoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T13:52:15Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2014-06-04T13:54:33Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-04T13:54:36Z prxq: francogrex: i don't see why not. You could have a function that drops the C code into some file in /tmp/, compiles, links, and executes it via run-program, etc 2014-06-04T13:55:01Z prxq: now, wether that still qualifies as 'cool'... 2014-06-04T13:55:34Z Okasu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T13:56:16Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T13:58:00Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2014-06-04T13:58:06Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-04T13:58:53Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-04T13:59:08Z vinleod quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-06-04T13:59:09Z francogrex: prxq: yes. well vacietis seemed like something appropriate but i recall I wasn't much pleased with it, it had some major deficiencies... your idea of a function executing is dependent on a C compiler and piping or 'cffing' ... 2014-06-04T14:00:47Z rszeno: alternative is to parse c and interpret in lisp? 2014-06-04T14:00:55Z prxq didn't know anything about vacietis 2014-06-04T14:01:19Z prxq: it is nice to know that someone has recusitated the Z-lisp C compiler 2014-06-04T14:01:52Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-06-04T14:02:39Z francogrex: prxq: who rescusitaed it? 2014-06-04T14:03:09Z francogrex: rszeno: i think that's what vacietis does 2014-06-04T14:03:46Z prxq: it does, and it contains code from the Zeta-C compiler (as per the cliki page) 2014-06-04T14:03:58Z rszeno: francogrex, yes, true, i didn't know about vacietis ( i'm reading now ) 2014-06-04T14:04:11Z prxq: but it seems it is an independent C compiler 2014-06-04T14:04:53Z gingerale joined #lisp 2014-06-04T14:05:45Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-04T14:06:21Z francogrex: it is independent of a compiler. The idea is noce, but what irritates me is that vacietis\libc the header files of C cannot be used as such they must be transforlmed to lisp first by vacietis... 2014-06-04T14:06:45Z heddwch: Considering that's what it does with C... so? 2014-06-04T14:07:17Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-04T14:07:22Z francogrex: no you didn't understand. 2014-06-04T14:07:50Z heddwch: hm? 2014-06-04T14:07:58Z rszeno: need the path to include and other things 2014-06-04T14:07:58Z francogrex: it doesn't do it recursively... one has to have a lisp file of the header already prepared (by the developer) in advance 2014-06-04T14:08:23Z heddwch: Ah, I see. 2014-06-04T14:09:47Z francogrex: when you type #include for example in a vacietis prog, it isn't including really the .h file, but the .lisp version of it already prepared by the developer 2014-06-04T14:10:32Z rszeno: in fact is a toy, ( from readme.md ) 2014-06-04T14:12:39Z JokerDoomWork quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-04T14:13:38Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm trying to mem-ref the output of mem-aref her: (mem-ref (c-pointer (mem-aref (vec-vec-2s-to-c-arr a) 'vec-2s 1)) :short 0) and its not working. The (vec-vec-2s-to-c-arr a) is basically converting a C++ vector, 'a', I created, into a C array that cffi can manage. The vector I'm converting has two vec-2s objects in it. The "c-pointer" basically converts the output of: (mem-aref (vec-vec-2s-to-c-arr a) 'vec-2s 1)) to a system-area-point 2014-06-04T14:13:39Z joe-w-bimedina: er so mem-aref can use it as input. I can access any amount of data in the first object in the vector when I call like this, with mem-aref having an index of 0: (mem-ref (c-pointer (mem-aref (vec-vec-2s-to-c-arr a) 'vec-2s 0)) :short 0), but I could use help accessing the second object which should be at at index 1 because in all my similar vector wrappers I can access any object inside a vector this way. I'm using mem-ref btw because the 2014-06-04T14:13:39Z joe-w-bimedina: value I'm trying to get is a short and I need to enter a specific offset of a multiple of 2. 2014-06-04T14:14:02Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-04T14:14:07Z francogrex quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.1.2 $Revision: 1.796.2.4 $ (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-04T14:14:29Z joe-w-bimedina: here is the c code for vec-vec-2s-to-c-arr https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/54134a719a316dea6650 2014-06-04T14:16:35Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-04T14:18:05Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T14:18:40Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-04T14:19:51Z huza quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2014-06-04T14:21:27Z Fare joined #lisp 2014-06-04T14:23:20Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-04T14:26:08Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-04T14:28:46Z karbak joined #lisp 2014-06-04T14:28:58Z karbak quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-04T14:29:56Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-04T14:30:16Z karbak joined #lisp 2014-06-04T14:33:23Z kpreid joined #lisp 2014-06-04T14:34:20Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-04T14:37:04Z joe-w-bimedina: using mem-ref, would you ever find anything at a negative offset 2014-06-04T14:37:41Z heddwch: Probably 2014-06-04T14:38:50Z Eyes quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-04T14:39:02Z joe-w-bimedina: heddwch: thanks, any chance you might have any advice on my last post 2014-06-04T14:39:13Z Eyes joined #lisp 2014-06-04T14:39:18Z heddwch: joe-w-bimedina: np :) Ah, let me look 2014-06-04T14:39:31Z joe-w-bimedina: hedddwch: thank you! 2014-06-04T14:40:46Z pjb: minion: memo for Fizzixnerd: beware, line numbers keep changing (think insert, delete line). My advice: write line numbers in the first column, so the user can assign fixed line numbers. 2014-06-04T14:40:46Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Fizzixnerd when he/she/it next speaks. 2014-06-04T14:41:23Z heddwch: pjb: Basic? 2014-06-04T14:41:59Z pjb: minion: memo for Fizzixnerd: for example: http://paste.lisp.org/+3266 2014-06-04T14:41:59Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Fizzixnerd when he/she/it next speaks. 2014-06-04T14:42:08Z pjb: heddwch: no, that could still be lisp. 2014-06-04T14:42:33Z rszeno quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-04T14:42:33Z Eyes quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-04T14:42:34Z heddwch: heh 2014-06-04T14:42:54Z Eyes joined #lisp 2014-06-04T14:45:00Z nyef joined #lisp 2014-06-04T14:45:52Z heddwch: joe-w-bimedina: Okay, so what's happening when you try accessing index 1? 2014-06-04T14:46:17Z joe-w-bimedina: I get an unhandled memory fault error 2014-06-04T14:46:53Z heddwch: hm O_o 2014-06-04T14:47:14Z joe-w-bimedina: well I can get the data at index 1 but it's null 2014-06-04T14:47:39Z heddwch: ah, I see 2014-06-04T14:48:20Z joe-w-bimedina: when I try to mem-ref the short on the null-pointer of course i get the error 2014-06-04T14:48:42Z heddwch: right 2014-06-04T14:49:32Z joe-w-bimedina: when I run the exact same code on this typedef Vec Vec2i; it works but the vec-2s is actually this and i get errors: typedef Vec Vec2s; 2014-06-04T14:50:07Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-04T14:51:16Z joe-w-bimedina: I'll be happy to provide any all info, an answer on this could help weed out my deepest errors 2014-06-04T14:51:33Z heddwch: What's your defctype look like for vec-2s? 2014-06-04T14:51:38Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-04T14:51:46Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec 2014-06-04T14:51:51Z Guest23931 left #lisp 2014-06-04T14:52:29Z heddwch: Sorry I'm slow, I'm no expert, just trying to cross-reference and poke at it until we can maybe fix it or someone more knowledgeable comes along. 2014-06-04T14:52:56Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm very grateful for your help, here is gist: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/ebc1f9b54c3ca7a1ee58 2014-06-04T14:53:12Z heddwch: :) 2014-06-04T14:53:17Z sellout joined #lisp 2014-06-04T14:53:35Z fortitude joined #lisp 2014-06-04T14:54:28Z ikki quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-04T14:54:50Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2014-06-04T14:56:24Z heddwch: So these two-element vectors, they're a vector of two pointers to the int/short, correct? 2014-06-04T14:57:07Z heddwch: Never mind, dead-end thought 2014-06-04T14:57:28Z rszeno joined #lisp 2014-06-04T14:57:37Z joe-w-bimedina: just in case the vector 'a' has 2 of these typedef Vec Vec2s; in it 2014-06-04T14:58:53Z Joreji_ joined #lisp 2014-06-04T15:04:46Z dandersen is now known as dkcl 2014-06-04T15:08:08Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-04T15:09:28Z heddwch: What happens if you do (mem-ref (c-pointer (mem-aref (vec-vec-2s-to-c-arr a) 'vec-2s 0)) :short 2)? 2014-06-04T15:09:46Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec 2014-06-04T15:10:10Z Joreji_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T15:10:19Z slyrus: joe-w-bimedina: is this all for opencv? 2014-06-04T15:10:31Z joe-w-bimedina: yea 2014-06-04T15:10:49Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-04T15:10:49Z slyrus: use opticl instead! 2014-06-04T15:11:11Z joe-w-bimedina: I get 2 2014-06-04T15:11:12Z Xach: oh god 2014-06-04T15:11:20Z joe-w-bimedina: what is opticl 2014-06-04T15:11:22Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-04T15:11:25Z Xach: slyrus: this has been a many months long saga of ignorance and pain 2014-06-04T15:11:35Z heddwch: lol 2014-06-04T15:11:36Z Xach: are you sure you want to join it? 2014-06-04T15:11:41Z slyrus: heh 2014-06-04T15:11:43Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-04T15:11:51Z heddwch: joe-w-bimedina: What's the value that's supposed to be there? 2014-06-04T15:11:54Z slyrus: opticl is an image processing library I wrote in CL 2014-06-04T15:12:04Z Xach: It has been an interesting arc from stack overflow, to the cffi mailing list, to here, with little sign of progress or clue 2014-06-04T15:12:36Z joe-w-bimedina: that value is correct, I just get errors trying to mem-ref values at index 1 2014-06-04T15:13:58Z joe-w-bimedina: Xach, you should check out my library , I've integrated and improved on everything i've been taught, a couple glitches but only minor, 2014-06-04T15:14:11Z heddwch: joe-w-bimedina: Well, I did the low-level check route. The problem is that you're incrementing the wrong index. The first pointer is a pointer to the array, so you need to dereference that to get a pointer to the short, then you need to access index 1 of the short pointer (that's what the memref offset of 2 did, took a lucky guess and assumed you're on x86 and a short is 2 bytes wide) 2014-06-04T15:14:54Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-04T15:15:30Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-04T15:16:22Z Xach: joe-w-bimedina: where is it? 2014-06-04T15:16:34Z ahungry_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T15:16:45Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-04T15:17:17Z joe-w-bimedina: when I wrap the other vectors I can access the second vetor like this no problem e.g. for a float vector (mem-ref (c-pointer (mem-aref (vec-vec-2f-to-c-arr a) 'vec-2f 1)) :float 2) <---this works 2014-06-04T15:17:36Z joe-w-bimedina: just google lisp-cv 2014-06-04T15:17:52Z joe-w-bimedina: slyrus, does your project do video? 2014-06-04T15:18:05Z Xach: joe-w-bimedina: What is the URL? 2014-06-04T15:18:24Z joe-w-bimedina: https://github.com/W-Net-AI/lisp-cv 2014-06-04T15:18:49Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-04T15:19:18Z iAran quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-04T15:19:21Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-04T15:19:24Z heddwch: joe-w-bimedina: Right, that's grabbing the second vector in the outer vector, dereferencing it, then accessing offset 2 (index 1) of that vector 2014-06-04T15:19:27Z joe-w-bimedina: got a minor memory leak in the vectors, barely noticeable in the vectors, so be aware of that 2014-06-04T15:20:31Z joe-w-bimedina: I wrote it wrong this is what works for my 20 other vector wrappers (mem-aref (c-pointer (mem-aref (vec-vec-2f-to-c-arr a) 'vec-2f 1)) :float 0) 2014-06-04T15:22:05Z heddwch: mm 2014-06-04T15:22:13Z joe-w-bimedina: Xach: still some memory issues in some examples so try to stay away from ones that don't use with-macros...it's still in process but highly functional 2014-06-04T15:22:15Z wchun joined #lisp 2014-06-04T15:23:08Z joe-w-bimedina: heddwch, that's what i'm saying the float, double, int , work but short, uchar and ushort don't, all the code for each is the same 2014-06-04T15:24:39Z heddwch: Yea, there's a pointer arithmetic problem happening, but I'm having trouble following the code to where 2014-06-04T15:25:07Z heddwch: You might consider writing accessors in C to just get the value and return it as a short 2014-06-04T15:25:20Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-04T15:25:37Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-04T15:25:57Z ahungry_ joined #lisp 2014-06-04T15:25:57Z joe-w-bimedina: can I supply the C code, it doesn't really require OpenCv........can you show me an example...not sure I follow exactly 2014-06-04T15:26:02Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-04T15:27:13Z heddwch: I'm just meaning write that whole reference mess in C/C++, a function that takes the vector and index and returns the short you need, then call that from lisp 2014-06-04T15:28:29Z joe-w-bimedina: Ok i get it, kind of like a little band aid, are you really skilled at cffi, is this a normal thing pro's have to do sometimes? 2014-06-04T15:29:19Z oGMo: cffi refs are always confusing ;P 2014-06-04T15:29:35Z joe-w-bimedina: I guess possibly, since I'm communicating with c++ vectors there could be issues 2014-06-04T15:29:38Z heddwch: C++ is painful to interface with in general. Writing accessors that return normal C types is nothing bad 2014-06-04T15:29:40Z heddwch: Yea 2014-06-04T15:29:44Z theos: we need a lisp program to understand cffi refs 2014-06-04T15:30:14Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-04T15:30:28Z oGMo: heddwch: yeah though it shouldn't be _that_ hard to grab a field if that's all you need 2014-06-04T15:30:53Z oGMo: but of course many C++ things are written so you never do that 2014-06-04T15:31:44Z joe-w-bimedina: should I drop a line to CFFI about this, maybe they can update the CFFI code, this is a pretty strong C macro around the C++ vectors 2014-06-04T15:31:59Z TristamWrk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-04T15:32:13Z heddwch: strong and C macro don't really belong in the same sentence 2014-06-04T15:32:22Z heddwch: unless odor is also there 2014-06-04T15:32:23Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-04T15:32:24Z oGMo: got that right 2014-06-04T15:32:32Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-04T15:32:34Z mr-foobar quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-04T15:32:58Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-04T15:32:58Z mr-foobar joined #lisp 2014-06-04T15:33:20Z TristamWrk joined #lisp 2014-06-04T15:35:15Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-04T15:35:46Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm working with a ex DOD guy that wrote it and OpenCV did accept, thats what I meant by strong, but if C macros are known to not be strong by nature, Then that probably doesn't matter then I guess, I'll try the accessor route tomorrow then, maybe try to fix all my similar glitches that way 2014-06-04T15:38:13Z owl-v- quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-06-04T15:38:41Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-04T15:40:29Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-04T15:40:36Z joe-w-bimedina: heddwch: thanks for taking the time out to help me on this :) 2014-06-04T15:42:20Z malice quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-04T15:43:17Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-04T15:43:38Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-06-04T15:44:11Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-04T15:46:00Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-04T15:46:57Z kanru` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-04T15:47:16Z marsam quit (Changing host) 2014-06-04T15:47:16Z marsam joined #lisp 2014-06-04T15:47:20Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-04T15:49:25Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-06-04T15:52:24Z findiggle quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-04T15:53:52Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-04T15:54:20Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-04T15:55:37Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-04T15:56:30Z hitecnologys: Sorry for such a long delay, I had exams to deal with. Now I can finally deliver what Xach asked me to do a month ago: http://hitecnologys.org/2/. I doesn't have enough graphs but I've run out of ideas what I can plot. I can do more if someone gives me any good suggestions. And text also may contain a bunch of incorrectness and mistakes, as usual. 2014-06-04T16:02:43Z heddwch: joe-w-bimedina: np :) Sorry I wasn't able to be more help 2014-06-04T16:05:27Z joe-w-bimedina: heddwch: no prob, if thats the way its done, I'll just update my C interop library, hey, thats what its for right:) You did give me a direction and I do appreciate that 2014-06-04T16:05:31Z oGMo: joe-w-bimedina: actually how are you getting your data? 2014-06-04T16:05:45Z oGMo: joe-w-bimedina: i.e. is that vec-vec... function a C function or what? 2014-06-04T16:06:01Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec I'll make a gist 2014-06-04T16:06:17Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-04T16:07:50Z oGMo: there appear to be relatively ancient opencv bindings already too 2014-06-04T16:08:36Z oGMo: oh, dec 2013 update, not sure how often opencv gets updated itself 2014-06-04T16:08:45Z joe-w-bimedina: here is the gist of how I convert the C++ vectors into C so that CFFI can work with them, the carray_to_std_vectorv2s is how I convert to a C++ vector in Lisp 2014-06-04T16:09:41Z joe-w-bimedina: there are 2 common-cv and cl-opencv, both outdated, Ipilfered all there best stuff and added to my library, common-cv is a work of art 2014-06-04T16:09:49Z joe-w-bimedina: I pilfered 2014-06-04T16:10:17Z oGMo: it says it has a C interface 2014-06-04T16:10:58Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-04T16:11:07Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-04T16:11:11Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-04T16:11:17Z oGMo: of course if the docs would load it would be nice ;P 2014-06-04T16:11:17Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-04T16:11:20Z Vutral quit (Changing host) 2014-06-04T16:11:20Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-04T16:11:33Z joe-w-bimedina: yea mine uses the C++ via autogenerated C binding that get generated when you build itseez OpenCV thet are brand new 2014-06-04T16:11:37Z joe-w-bimedina: they 2014-06-04T16:12:20Z joe-w-bimedina: oGMo: I use std_vectorv2s_to_carray to convert the C++ vector bak to C so CFFI can use it 2014-06-04T16:13:10Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-06-04T16:13:53Z joe-w-bimedina: Anybody that wants to help on the project is welcome, just see my Readme.md for details, it is alot of fun, i can't stop doing it 2014-06-04T16:14:02Z boogie joined #lisp 2014-06-04T16:16:41Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: Uuuh you're saying you need to use slot-value on an asdf system. The asdf:component-version accessor is public though... 2014-06-04T16:16:48Z Shinmera: *exported 2014-06-04T16:17:46Z ramkrsna quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-04T16:17:46Z asedeno_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-04T16:18:22Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: huh, didn't know that. Thanks for information. 2014-06-04T16:18:38Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: wait a second, I'll add it to the article. 2014-06-04T16:19:53Z Xach: hitecnologys: that is a great cartoon 2014-06-04T16:19:56Z Shinmera: A uniform version specification would be really handy though since you could then depend on version ranges rather than a specific version. 2014-06-04T16:20:14Z JokerDoomWork joined #lisp 2014-06-04T16:20:18Z hitecnologys: Xach: thanks, I did my best. 2014-06-04T16:20:33Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-04T16:20:39Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: yeah, that would be nice too. 2014-06-04T16:21:28Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-04T16:21:56Z Sir_herrbatka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-04T16:22:01Z Shinmera: Xach: Doesn't quicklisp already require a version to at least be specified? Maybe some pressure could be applied there to push things into a standardized way. 2014-06-04T16:22:32Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-04T16:24:06Z Shinmera: For some reason I vaguely recall this being discussed before.. 2014-06-04T16:24:21Z Xach: hitecnologys: no. 2014-06-04T16:24:28Z Xach: err, Shinmera, no 2014-06-04T16:25:41Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-04T16:25:56Z solidus__ joined #lisp 2014-06-04T16:26:10Z solidus__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-04T16:26:17Z solidus_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-04T16:26:35Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-04T16:28:27Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-04T16:29:23Z Shinmera: In other things; Does anyone know of a library for tablet input or even just xinput communication? 2014-06-04T16:31:26Z _schulte_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-04T16:31:49Z Sir_herrbatka joined #lisp 2014-06-04T16:32:20Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-04T16:32:32Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-04T16:33:05Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-04T16:33:53Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-04T16:36:37Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-04T16:38:12Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-04T16:39:39Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2014-06-04T16:40:59Z renard_: hi, 2014-06-04T16:41:39Z renard_: given a variable wich is a list of symbol value pairs suitable for let 2014-06-04T16:42:11Z renard_: is there a way to create a macro to setup the specific environment ? 2014-06-04T16:42:35Z renard_: such as (with-my-environment env-vars do-stuff) 2014-06-04T16:42:38Z varjag_ joined #lisp 2014-06-04T16:42:49Z nyef: Are you looking for splicing the contents of the variable into a LET at compile-time, or are you looking for PROGV? 2014-06-04T16:43:06Z renard_: and env-vars is someting like: ((var1 val1) (var2 val2)…) 2014-06-04T16:43:33Z madist left #lisp 2014-06-04T16:43:33Z renard_: nyef: nope I need it to be dynamic at exec time 2014-06-04T16:43:42Z nyef: So, PROGV. 2014-06-04T16:43:47Z hitecnologys: clhs progv 2014-06-04T16:43:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_progv.htm 2014-06-04T16:43:52Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-06-04T16:44:05Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-04T16:44:16Z marsam is now known as marsbot 2014-06-04T16:44:42Z nyef: Note that PROGV always creates dynamic (special) bindings. 2014-06-04T16:44:52Z renard_: hitecnologys: ok thanks for the tip 2014-06-04T16:46:03Z nyef: Also note that some threaded lisps can break if you run "too many" symbols through PROGV without restarting your image from scratch. 2014-06-04T16:48:10Z chadhs joined #lisp 2014-06-04T16:48:40Z nyef: (This is particularly a risk if you're populating your environment with GENSYMs.) 2014-06-04T16:50:27Z renard_: nyef: seens to do the job 2014-06-04T16:50:29Z renard_: thanks 2014-06-04T16:52:40Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-04T16:53:57Z sohail quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-06-04T16:54:16Z ltbarcly_ joined #lisp 2014-06-04T16:56:36Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-04T16:57:43Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-04T16:57:48Z ltbarcly quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-04T17:03:04Z juiko joined #lisp 2014-06-04T17:03:29Z jxv joined #lisp 2014-06-04T17:06:34Z marsbot is now known as marsam 2014-06-04T17:07:47Z nvmme joined #lisp 2014-06-04T17:09:14Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-04T17:10:21Z segv- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T17:11:09Z segv- joined #lisp 2014-06-04T17:12:14Z Denommus quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-04T17:13:51Z chadhs quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-04T17:15:01Z juiko quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T17:15:29Z chadhs joined #lisp 2014-06-04T17:15:32Z patrickwonders quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-04T17:19:41Z interlocutor quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-04T17:20:18Z findiggle joined #lisp 2014-06-04T17:20:58Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-04T17:22:07Z nvmme quit (Quit: nvmme) 2014-06-04T17:23:39Z JuniorRoy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-04T17:24:30Z _schulte_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-04T17:25:49Z malice joined #lisp 2014-06-04T17:26:35Z patrickwonders joined #lisp 2014-06-04T17:27:50Z foreignFunction joined #lisp 2014-06-04T17:27:52Z jxv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-04T17:29:31Z JokerDoomWork quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-04T17:30:40Z joneshf-laptop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T17:30:50Z Vivitron quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-04T17:33:15Z shridhar quit (Quit: shridhar) 2014-06-04T17:34:15Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-04T17:35:57Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-06-04T17:36:38Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-04T17:42:43Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-04T17:45:35Z interlocutor joined #lisp 2014-06-04T17:47:22Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-04T17:47:39Z JuanitoJons joined #lisp 2014-06-04T17:49:13Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-04T17:49:39Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-04T17:51:08Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-04T17:54:27Z rszeno quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-04T17:55:36Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2014-06-04T17:55:53Z Bike_ joined #lisp 2014-06-04T17:56:31Z Bike_ is now known as Bicyclidine 2014-06-04T17:56:31Z nydel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T17:56:35Z JokerDoomWork joined #lisp 2014-06-04T17:56:56Z nydel joined #lisp 2014-06-04T17:57:08Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-04T17:57:48Z farhaven quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2014-06-04T17:58:54Z joe-w-bimedina quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2014-06-04T17:59:10Z rpg joined #lisp 2014-06-04T17:59:18Z Shinmera: oh hey I can actually use CommonQT to get (at least) wacom tablet events. Nice. 2014-06-04T18:00:32Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-04T18:00:32Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-06-04T18:00:32Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-04T18:04:35Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-04T18:04:45Z p_l: Shinmera: you should be able to get any compatible tablet, though you might want to explore intricacies of how XInput/Pen&Ink Services (depending on OS) are presented in QT 2014-06-04T18:05:16Z Shinmera: QTabletEvent in the spec specifically mentions wacom tablets only 2014-06-04T18:05:23Z Shinmera: But I'll see if there's any other hooks 2014-06-04T18:06:48Z p_l: unless they do something weird (which given the ongoing breakage in linux wouldn't surprise me...), they should be getting the events that are handed to them by the GUI system used, and both X11 and Win32 have standardized interface to tablets and the like 2014-06-04T18:07:47Z Shinmera: Yeah but at the same time wacom has specialised drivers on each os so it might get the events from that. 2014-06-04T18:07:51Z sohail joined #lisp 2014-06-04T18:08:00Z Shinmera: I can't really test for it either since I only have Wacom tablets. 2014-06-04T18:08:11Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-04T18:08:28Z oGMo: Shinmera: each get translated to one of those 2014-06-04T18:09:25Z p_l: Shinmera: the specialized drivers provide standard interfaces 2014-06-04T18:09:54Z p_l: the difference sometimes can be in the fact that wacom hw/driver combination afaik tends to work out of the box :P 2014-06-04T18:10:09Z rszeno joined #lisp 2014-06-04T18:10:25Z Shinmera: Heh, well, I'll take your word for it. 2014-06-04T18:10:53Z renard_: when I define a lambda function, is there a way to prevent the code from being compile at definition time ? 2014-06-04T18:11:09Z renard_: because some variables are not defined yet 2014-06-04T18:11:29Z renard_: the code is aimed to be run later after varible definition 2014-06-04T18:12:07Z White_Flame: eval would be the extreme case 2014-06-04T18:12:31Z White_Flame: though why aren't the variables defined up front? is this truly doing runtime code generation? 2014-06-04T18:13:41Z pjb: Yes, PROGV is designed to write interpreters with dynamic binding. 2014-06-04T18:14:20Z oGMo: how would you be writing a lambda with variables that aren't _declared_ yet? you said _defined_, but that doesn't matter if they're _declared_ 2014-06-04T18:14:23Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2014-06-04T18:14:41Z pjb: Shinmera: you have the choice of creating a closure, or keeping the source sexp until you have the needed variables. 2014-06-04T18:15:03Z oGMo: i.e., if you write (lambda () ... *x* ...), how do you know to write *x* there, and why can't you just (defvar *x*)? 2014-06-04T18:18:26Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-04T18:18:53Z pjb: Or just (lambda () (declare (special *x*)) … *x* …) 2014-06-04T18:18:57Z asedeno joined #lisp 2014-06-04T18:19:25Z renard_: yep declaring them is the best option so far 2014-06-04T18:20:24Z lyanchih_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-04T18:21:27Z bocaneri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T18:21:47Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-04T18:23:00Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2014-06-04T18:25:53Z Kenjin quit 2014-06-04T18:26:05Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-04T18:27:11Z ltbarcly_ quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-04T18:27:39Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-04T18:27:56Z owl-v- joined #lisp 2014-06-04T18:28:06Z theos joined #lisp 2014-06-04T18:29:07Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-04T18:30:45Z _aiden_ joined #lisp 2014-06-04T18:32:57Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-04T18:35:19Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-06-04T18:35:30Z sauerkrause left #lisp 2014-06-04T18:38:26Z sohail quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-06-04T18:38:33Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-04T18:39:38Z misv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-04T18:39:45Z marsam is now known as marsbot 2014-06-04T18:40:12Z misv joined #lisp 2014-06-04T18:40:57Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2014-06-04T18:42:08Z billstclair quit (Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com) 2014-06-04T18:42:32Z mordocai joined #lisp 2014-06-04T18:43:45Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-04T18:45:03Z ltbarcly is now known as ltbarcly_ 2014-06-04T18:45:09Z ltbarcly_ is now known as ltbarcly 2014-06-04T18:45:10Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-04T18:46:04Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-04T18:46:11Z billstclair joined #lisp 2014-06-04T18:46:35Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: activity closed by mental explosion) 2014-06-04T18:47:59Z karbak quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-04T18:51:12Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-04T18:51:16Z owl-v- quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-06-04T18:52:23Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-04T18:53:10Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-04T18:53:30Z orthecreedence joined #lisp 2014-06-04T18:53:32Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-06-04T18:54:38Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-04T18:54:47Z lduros quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T18:57:26Z ehaliewicz joined #lisp 2014-06-04T18:58:40Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-04T19:00:08Z keen________ joined #lisp 2014-06-04T19:00:24Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-04T19:01:29Z keen_______ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-04T19:04:42Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2014-06-04T19:05:35Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-04T19:06:35Z replcated joined #lisp 2014-06-04T19:08:40Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-04T19:09:39Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2014-06-04T19:16:04Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-06-04T19:16:45Z karbak joined #lisp 2014-06-04T19:16:51Z emma quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-04T19:21:58Z karbak quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-04T19:26:15Z francogrex joined #lisp 2014-06-04T19:30:12Z GuilOooo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-04T19:31:52Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 2014-06-04T19:32:50Z cbrowne joined #lisp 2014-06-04T19:32:51Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-04T19:33:18Z juanlas joined #lisp 2014-06-04T19:33:49Z cbrowne: using slimv, is ,S (splice) supposed to remove the inner-most parens? It seems to pick some random parens higher up the stack at the moment which is really quite infuriating 2014-06-04T19:38:31Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-04T19:43:12Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-04T19:45:26Z orthecreedence: cbrowne: i use vim-surround for a lot of that stuff, didnt know slimv had that built it 2014-06-04T19:46:14Z jasom: are inner bindings of progv dynamic? e.g. (progv '(x) '(1) (defun foo () x) (let ((x 2)) (foo))) 2014-06-04T19:46:22Z Bicyclidine: no. 2014-06-04T19:46:47Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-04T19:46:50Z Bicyclidine: whether a variable is special or lexical is independent of progv, and determined lexically (by presence or lack of (declare (special ...)) 2014-06-04T19:47:10Z pjb: 1- it is meaningless to call defun inside a dynamic binding! 2014-06-04T19:47:23Z pjb: 2- you could use declare special in the defun. 2014-06-04T19:47:24Z Bicyclidine: in fact, (let ((x 2)) (progv '(x) '(1) x)) => 2 2014-06-04T19:47:45Z Shinmera quit (Quit: 鍬形) 2014-06-04T19:47:52Z jasom: pjb: sorry (progv '(x) '(1) (let ((f (lambda () x)) (x 2)) (funcall x)) 2014-06-04T19:48:11Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-04T19:48:56Z jasom: or more simply (progv '(x) '(1) (let ((x 2)) (symbol-value 'x))) 2014-06-04T19:49:06Z Bicyclidine: 1. 2014-06-04T19:49:09Z pjb: (let ((x 2)) (progv '(x) '(1) (list (symbol-value 'x) x (locally (declare (special x)) x)))) --> (1 2 1) 2014-06-04T19:49:46Z Bicyclidine: whether a reference to a variable is supposed to be special or lexical is a lexical matter that progv is independent of. 2014-06-04T19:50:01Z jasom: ah 2014-06-04T19:50:27Z jasom: Does it do antyhing that an unwind-protect and setf symbol-value can't do? 2014-06-04T19:50:34Z the8thbit joined #lisp 2014-06-04T19:51:00Z Bicyclidine: you'd also need makunbound. i dunno, though 2014-06-04T19:51:06Z Bicyclidine: and boundp* 2014-06-04T19:51:14Z pjb: Well, it could be argued whether global declaim special is lexical or dynamic :-) 2014-06-04T19:52:32Z monod joined #lisp 2014-06-04T19:52:33Z the8thbit quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-06-04T19:53:50Z jxv joined #lisp 2014-06-04T19:53:53Z cbrowne: orthecreedence: fair enough 2014-06-04T19:54:44Z the8thbit joined #lisp 2014-06-04T19:55:18Z orthecreedence: vim-surround is awesome. it makes so many things easier. worth checking out if you dont have it already 2014-06-04T19:57:32Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-04T19:58:03Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-04T19:59:48Z cbrowne: I will give it a look-see 2014-06-04T20:01:03Z cbrowne: is it not sacrilegious or something to write Lisp in Vim? :P 2014-06-04T20:01:17Z jasom: cbrowne: I did it for years 2014-06-04T20:01:32Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-04T20:01:33Z jasom: now I use evil-mode for emacs 2014-06-04T20:01:36Z orthecreedence: i only use vim 2014-06-04T20:01:45Z orthecreedence: slimv is badass 2014-06-04T20:01:49Z jasom: for a long while I used vim for editing and emacs+slime for debugging 2014-06-04T20:02:54Z _aiden_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-04T20:03:37Z orthecreedence: if you can write code efficiently and have in-editor acces to your repl, i dont think it matters what editor you use =] 2014-06-04T20:03:39Z prxq: jasom: now that's a convenient and minimalistic setup! :) 2014-06-04T20:04:37Z Sir_herrbatka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-04T20:04:42Z cbrowne: indeed, indeed 2014-06-04T20:06:05Z the8thbit quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-04T20:07:03Z francogrex: msg? 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2014-06-04T20:43:48Z renard_: progv ? 2014-06-04T20:44:03Z stassats: the best way is not to do that 2014-06-04T20:44:05Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-04T20:44:27Z H4ns: is progv a good solution to anything? 2014-06-04T20:44:41Z renard_: stassats: ok what alternative do I have ? 2014-06-04T20:45:10Z stassats: an alternative is to write your program in an ordinary fashion 2014-06-04T20:45:33Z karbak joined #lisp 2014-06-04T20:45:40Z renard_: isn't that the role of macros? 2014-06-04T20:45:51Z stassats: no 2014-06-04T20:46:28Z nisstyre: renard_: macros are useful if your problem requires a very general set of primitives and it would be unclear or very annoying to write it all out with the primitives you already have available 2014-06-04T20:46:46Z nisstyre: there are not too many problems that fill that specification 2014-06-04T20:46:58Z the8thbit quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-04T20:47:51Z White_Flame: renard_: those var1 and var2 need to be evaluated in the lexical context in which they appear. 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I need to take an inventory of what is allocated and all I find on the web are 9-year old discussions of walking the active objects in the heap and no hints of an existing API within Boehm to carry this out. 2014-06-04T22:27:53Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-04T22:27:57Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T22:28:18Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-04T22:29:15Z vlnx joined #lisp 2014-06-04T22:30:17Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-04T22:32:34Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-04T22:32:53Z jasom: it has a configuration option for statistics, but I do'nt know of anyway to list specific allocations 2014-06-04T22:33:02Z vlnx_ joined #lisp 2014-06-04T22:33:12Z marsam is now known as marsbot 2014-06-04T22:33:16Z stassats: just get yourself 64GB of memory 2014-06-04T22:33:45Z White_Flame: why that small? 2014-06-04T22:33:55Z stassats: and, do you have to process everything at once? can't do it piecemeal? 2014-06-04T22:34:07Z stassats: White_Flame: more would require some workstation/server cpus 2014-06-04T22:34:09Z vlnx quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-04T22:34:48Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-04T22:35:28Z White_Flame: nah, there are core i7, non-xeon mobos that do 128GB 2014-06-04T22:35:44Z White_Flame: (single-socket) 2014-06-04T22:35:57Z jasom: I just upgraded to 2gb on this machine 2014-06-04T22:36:33Z White_Flame: if you do go xeon/opteron, I believe we're now up to 1TB on a single quad-socket motherboard 2014-06-04T22:36:41Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-04T22:36:49Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-04T22:36:57Z stassats: this isn't a measuring contest 2014-06-04T22:37:09Z White_Flame: no, it's a celebration of living in the future :) 2014-06-04T22:37:27Z stassats: and which exactly core i7 model supports 128GB of RAM? 2014-06-04T22:37:35Z oGMo: i wouldn't call i7 "the future" ;P 2014-06-04T22:37:45Z White_Flame: anything with LGA2011 should do 2014-06-04T22:37:52Z oGMo: and if i had it to do again i wouldn't touch any of those boards with a 10' left-paren 2014-06-04T22:38:36Z oGMo: lga2011 is deprecated 2014-06-04T22:39:17Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-06-04T22:39:28Z stassats: well, maybe intel doesn't know that they support 128GB 2014-06-04T22:39:35Z stassats: all it says is 64GB 2014-06-04T22:39:49Z p_l: stassats: intel knows very well it doesn't support more 2014-06-04T22:39:53Z oGMo: yeah i have the asus p9x79 ws board and that's 64GB tops 2014-06-04T22:40:08Z oGMo: and doing even that in 8 dimm slots would be pricey 2014-06-04T22:40:11Z White_Flame: oGMo: yep, but there should be another similar N-channel memory pinout at some point to replace it 2014-06-04T22:40:30Z p_l: most non-xeon chips have deliberately "cut" memory controllers to not support more than 32G (sometimes 64G) 2014-06-04T22:40:32Z stassats: and intel doesn't even have 128GB limits, it's 144 2014-06-04T22:41:27Z oGMo: you really don't need that, i have 32GB and i'll never touch most of it, that was just the breaking point for cheap-or-not 2014-06-04T22:41:51Z stassats: and drmeister was complaining that his process takes 32GB of memory, that's why i suggested 64, which is reasonably easy to get 2014-06-04T22:41:52Z oGMo: doing anything that requires more on intel is laughable anyway 2014-06-04T22:41:55Z p_l: also, outside of two models, 8Gbit DRAM chips are not supported on intel hw, so unless you go for multi-rank modules iirc you can forget about 16G dimms 2014-06-04T22:42:17Z JokerDoomWork quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-04T22:42:30Z oGMo: stassats: wasn't that before he started using a GC? heh 2014-06-04T22:42:43Z JokerDoomWork joined #lisp 2014-06-04T22:43:21Z stassats: boehm isn't that great 2014-06-04T22:43:42Z oGMo: doubtless 2014-06-04T22:43:58Z jaimef quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-04T22:44:16Z Shinmera quit (Quit: ZzzZ) 2014-06-04T22:44:39Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-04T22:45:05Z jaimef joined #lisp 2014-06-04T22:46:05Z sttau quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-06-04T22:46:29Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 2014-06-04T22:48:37Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-04T22:48:48Z JokerDoomWork quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-04T22:48:55Z emma joined #lisp 2014-06-04T22:49:08Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-04T22:50:09Z fortitude quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-04T22:50:14Z sttau joined #lisp 2014-06-04T22:50:50Z sttau quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-04T22:52:00Z JokerDoomWork joined #lisp 2014-06-04T22:53:07Z ircbrowse quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-04T22:53:07Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-04T22:53:37Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-06-04T22:53:47Z ircbrowse joined #lisp 2014-06-04T22:55:44Z drewc quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-04T22:57:54Z MjrTom quit (Quit: Planet Earth is blue, and there's nothing I can do) 2014-06-04T22:58:29Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-04T22:59:21Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-04T22:59:45Z drewc joined #lisp 2014-06-04T23:00:26Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T23:05:01Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-04T23:06:51Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-04T23:07:44Z Fare joined #lisp 2014-06-04T23:07:54Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T23:08:54Z Sgeo joined #lisp 2014-06-04T23:10:54Z stassats` joined #lisp 2014-06-04T23:11:16Z stassats` quit (Changing host) 2014-06-04T23:11:16Z stassats` joined #lisp 2014-06-04T23:13:39Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T23:14:11Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-04T23:15:28Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-06-04T23:15:42Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T23:15:45Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-04T23:20:25Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-04T23:21:25Z Code_Man` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-04T23:21:47Z matko joined #lisp 2014-06-04T23:24:55Z Vivitron joined #lisp 2014-06-04T23:26:04Z stassats` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-04T23:31:31Z replcate` joined #lisp 2014-06-04T23:33:50Z ericmathison joined #lisp 2014-06-04T23:36:31Z camelCaseIsUgly joined #lisp 2014-06-04T23:38:28Z camelCaseIsUgly left #lisp 2014-06-04T23:39:26Z owl-v- joined #lisp 2014-06-04T23:41:06Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-04T23:41:47Z camelCaseIsUgly joined #lisp 2014-06-04T23:41:47Z camelCaseIsUgly quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-04T23:42:52Z knob is now known as Guest54861 2014-06-04T23:43:12Z AdmiralBumbleBee joined #lisp 2014-06-04T23:43:26Z replcate` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-04T23:43:36Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2014-06-04T23:44:07Z kanru` joined #lisp 2014-06-04T23:45:46Z owl-v- quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-06-04T23:47:23Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-04T23:48:18Z ericmathison quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-04T23:50:13Z ericmathison joined #lisp 2014-06-04T23:53:52Z askatasuna quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-04T23:54:02Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-04T23:54:46Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-06-04T23:55:12Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-04T23:55:27Z xach quit (Input/output error) 2014-06-05T00:00:33Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2014-06-05T00:02:33Z orthecreedence quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-05T00:05:31Z joneshf-laptop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T00:06:00Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-05T00:06:17Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-05T00:06:54Z juiko joined #lisp 2014-06-05T00:08:39Z jxv quit (Quit: QUIT) 2014-06-05T00:08:47Z juiko quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T00:09:07Z juiko joined #lisp 2014-06-05T00:11:00Z juiko quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T00:11:32Z juiko joined #lisp 2014-06-05T00:12:55Z juiko quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-05T00:14:27Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-06-05T00:14:49Z chu joined #lisp 2014-06-05T00:17:30Z MjrTom quit (Quit: Planet Earth is blue, and there's nothing I can do) 2014-06-05T00:18:10Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-05T00:18:56Z ehaliewicz joined #lisp 2014-06-05T00:19:05Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-05T00:21:11Z drmeister: stassats: What is the interface that you are currently interested in building an FFI for? 2014-06-05T00:22:37Z jasom was interested in clang, but it sounds like you already did that 2014-06-05T00:22:59Z drmeister: jasom: Yes - that one I have exposed already. 2014-06-05T00:23:35Z jasom: I played around with trying to get fltk working at one point. IDK that I'm still interested in doing that though 2014-06-05T00:23:54Z drmeister: Or wait, that' one I have exposed within my CL. stassats was interested in automatically building an FFI for another library using clasp/clang - I think it was QT. 2014-06-05T00:25:06Z jasom: drmeister: I think nearly every GUI toolkit except gtk is written in something other than C; C++ being the most common; this is likely partly why FFI bindings to guis tend to suck in lisp 2014-06-05T00:26:42Z drmeister: I've had to retool my static analyzer and now I extract all information on all classes in my entire application. I extract about 200,000 C++ classes and store their instance variable/method/base classe info in CL defstructs within a hash-table keyed on their C++ valid name. 2014-06-05T00:27:00Z jasom: nice 2014-06-05T00:27:08Z zz_karupa is now known as karupa 2014-06-05T00:27:58Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-05T00:28:19Z drmeister: The Boehm is giving me trouble though - the entire process takes about 4 hours and last night it ran out of memory right at the end as it was serializing the results. Serialized the 200,000 C++ classes require about 100MB of storage in a human readable S-expression format. 2014-06-05T00:28:30Z drmeister: "The Boehm GC is giving me trouble". 2014-06-05T00:29:22Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-06-05T00:29:42Z jasom: drmeister: have you tried moving your heap? On 64-bit that can make a big difference 2014-06-05T00:30:19Z jasom: a lot of the leaks on boehm is from coincidental integers, and 64-bit gives you a big space to work with to try and avoid that. 2014-06-05T00:30:36Z drmeister: I need to figure out why Boehm is using so much memory. 2014-06-05T00:30:51Z drmeister: How do you move the heap? 2014-06-05T00:30:59Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-05T00:31:19Z jaimef hunts for ssh interface in cl 2014-06-05T00:31:32Z drmeister: I'm on OS X 10.9 Xcode 5.1.1. 2014-06-05T00:32:52Z _JokerDoomWork joined #lisp 2014-06-05T00:33:57Z drmeister: What I'd like is some way to inventory what objects are alive. I discovered the wonderful OS X program "heap" and then made it completely useless for me by activating the Boehm GC within a 24 hour span. 2014-06-05T00:34:12Z JokerDoomWork quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-05T00:34:34Z drmeister: "heap" lists all types of C++ objects allocated with "new", how many and how much storage they use. 2014-06-05T00:34:51Z jasom: vmmap lets you find the heap 2014-06-05T00:34:53Z drmeister: Boehm uses it's own malloc replacement which "heap" doesn't understand. 2014-06-05T00:35:47Z drmeister: I'm trying it. 2014-06-05T00:36:37Z drmeister: I'm running my static analyzer - it's on file 70 of 165 and is currently using 17.47 GB of virtual memory. 2014-06-05T00:36:46Z the8thbit joined #lisp 2014-06-05T00:36:48Z Bike: jesus. 2014-06-05T00:37:25Z jasom: drmeister: are you using USE_MMAP with boehm? 2014-06-05T00:37:51Z jaimef: ok 2014-06-05T00:38:00Z drmeister: No, I don't think so. 2014-06-05T00:38:20Z drmeister: Just for yuks, here's the output of vmmap: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/bb665c96e10e91f96103 2014-06-05T00:38:22Z jasom: jaimef: (uiop:run-program "ssh" ...) 2014-06-05T00:38:30Z effy: have you thought of letting that run on some kind of EC2 instance with 32GB of ram it would cost something like $1 for an hour or so 2014-06-05T00:39:17Z drmeister: effy: I haven't. On that, I have 16GB of ram 2014-06-05T00:39:40Z effy: oh ok, that's probably not a huge win for you then, nevermind :) 2014-06-05T00:40:20Z jasom: drmeister: that doesn't look to me like it's using sbrk, but I may be wrong. I'm not super familiar with BSDs vm management 2014-06-05T00:41:05Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-05T00:41:10Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-05T00:41:28Z jasom: make sure it's not getting memory from malloc, that's the worst option with boehm since you don't end up with contiguous allocations for boehm to use 2014-06-05T00:42:07Z jasom: though if you do need to use that option, then you can at least turn the "how much memory to allocate at a time" knob up to 11 to minimize that. 2014-06-05T00:43:33Z drmeister: This is all I use for configuring Boehm: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/5c09af140e671cfddd27 2014-06-05T00:46:50Z the8thbit quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-05T00:47:46Z erikc joined #lisp 2014-06-05T00:47:46Z jasom: drmeister: to move the heap define USE_MMAP and MMAP_FIXED and set HEAP_START to where you want the heap to start 2014-06-05T00:48:31Z jasom: what version? 2014-06-05T00:48:38Z ehaliewicz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-05T00:49:02Z yano quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T00:49:52Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-05T00:54:03Z flip214 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-05T00:54:17Z flip214 joined #lisp 2014-06-05T00:54:17Z flip214 quit (Changing host) 2014-06-05T00:54:17Z flip214 joined #lisp 2014-06-05T00:54:35Z drmeister: I'm just reading a tutorial on Boehm to see if there is something I overlooked. 2014-06-05T00:54:38Z drmeister: What version of what? 2014-06-05T00:54:50Z jasom: drmeister: boehm 2014-06-05T00:54:51Z drmeister: Version of Boehm 2014-06-05T00:54:55Z drmeister: Right - hang on. 2014-06-05T00:55:10Z drmeister: 7.2 2014-06-05T00:55:14Z jasom: on the version I have it's --enable-large-config (which is why I ask) 2014-06-05T00:55:42Z jasom: I think 7.2 supports the 3 defines I mention, so try adding those to CFLAGS 2014-06-05T00:55:42Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-05T00:56:42Z jasom: something like CFLAGS="-DUSE_MMAP -DMMAP_FIXED -DHEAP_START=0x0005432100000000" 2014-06-05T00:56:48Z varjag_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-06-05T00:57:07Z jasom doesn't remember how high you can actually go in a "64-bit" address space but seems to recall it's less than 64 bits 2014-06-05T00:59:03Z kcj quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-05T00:59:56Z jasom: ah, 48 bits 2014-06-05T01:00:16Z jasom: so I need more zeros in my HEAP_START 2014-06-05T01:00:32Z jasom: something like CFLAGS="-DUSE_MMAP -DMMAP_FIXED -DHEAP_START=0x0000032100000000" 2014-06-05T01:00:55Z drmeister: I'm trying it out 2014-06-05T01:01:03Z owl-v- joined #lisp 2014-06-05T01:01:26Z drmeister: I can't touch my source code because the static analyzer is running but I can recompile and relink everything. 2014-06-05T01:01:58Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-05T01:02:06Z drmeister: I'm really surprised that Boehm doesn't have a call to walk the active objects. 2014-06-05T01:02:11Z jasom: hmm, actually you might want to try making the lower-32 bits more "interesting" 2014-06-05T01:02:24Z drmeister: Really? Why? 2014-06-05T01:02:48Z jasom: right now if you have a small 32-bit integer next to another small 32-bit integer it might look like an address with the HEAP_START I mentioned 2014-06-05T01:03:11Z jasom: if you change it to say 0x3217f000000 that becomes much less likely 2014-06-05T01:03:18Z clop2 joined #lisp 2014-06-05T01:03:24Z drmeister: How about 0x0000032110203040 2014-06-05T01:03:28Z jasom: oh wait, you're using way more than 4gb so that doesn't matter too much 2014-06-05T01:03:43Z jasom: It likely needs to be 4k aligned minimum 2014-06-05T01:03:45Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-05T01:03:48Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-05T01:03:49Z jasom: (0x1000) 2014-06-05T01:04:05Z jasom: forget what I said, since you're going to be using all possible lower 32 bits anyways 2014-06-05T01:04:08Z lyanchih joined #lisp 2014-06-05T01:04:11Z drmeister: 0x0000032110203000 2014-06-05T01:04:30Z drmeister: That's now my favorite number. 2014-06-05T01:04:34Z jasom: you may still get some improvement by changing the upper bits (as your earlier allocations may be more likely to be higher up in the tree) 2014-06-05T01:05:38Z boogie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T01:06:08Z jasom: This is all a shot-in-the-dark anyway; it's a serious issue on 32-bit architectures, but I'm unsure if it's a problem on 64-bit 2014-06-05T01:07:01Z drmeister: But I can't go higher than: 0x1000000000000 2014-06-05T01:07:06Z drmeister: Right? 48-bit 2014-06-05T01:07:18Z jasom: drmeister: it's actually sign extended 2014-06-05T01:07:45Z drmeister: What does that mean in this context? 2014-06-05T01:07:45Z jasom: so lower 47 bits can be whatever, but upper 16 bits must all be the same 2014-06-05T01:07:54Z jasom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86-64#Virtual_address_space_details 2014-06-05T01:08:02Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-06-05T01:08:43Z jasom: that lets you do traditional "Stack grows down from top of VAS, heap grows up from bottom" allocations without breaking future compatibility 2014-06-05T01:09:49Z drmeister: Got it. 2014-06-05T01:09:53Z _JokerDoomWork quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-05T01:10:39Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-05T01:10:48Z drmeister: So what's wrong with: 0x0000032110203000 It's pretty close to the top of 48-bit address space. 2014-06-05T01:11:49Z drmeister: Actually, that's not quite true - hang on. 2014-06-05T01:11:58Z JokerDoomWork joined #lisp 2014-06-05T01:11:59Z drmeister: Not even "quite". 2014-06-05T01:12:13Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-05T01:12:14Z gz quit (Ping timeout: 184 seconds) 2014-06-05T01:12:16Z drmeister misses his HP calculator 2014-06-05T01:13:48Z endou_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-05T01:14:22Z tbarletz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T01:14:39Z drmeister: Ok, it's only 1/81 of the way to 1<<48 2014-06-05T01:15:25Z endou_ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T01:17:09Z DataLinkDroid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 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#lisp 2014-06-05T07:29:00Z hitecnologys: Who needs HP when there's TI? 2014-06-05T07:29:16Z dim: discovering the radix mode switches in M-x calc, it's pretty nice 2014-06-05T07:31:01Z p_l quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-05T07:31:16Z ck_: hitecnologys: thanks for your writeup. I have never seen the expression ``Some folks write bicycles using WITH-OPEN-FILE''. What does it mean? 2014-06-05T07:32:00Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-05T07:32:11Z Adlai joined #lisp 2014-06-05T07:33:03Z hitecnologys: ck_: it means #.(with-open-file (steam "version.expr") (read stream)) instead of simple (:read-file-form "version.expr"). 2014-06-05T07:33:49Z jasom: My dad talked me out of my 11c by buying me a 35s 2014-06-05T07:34:23Z H4ns: hitecnologys: i have moved to making my deployment script edit the :version and make all other version specifications in the system be a derivative of that. do i get a cookie? 2014-06-05T07:35:04Z ck_: I got the meaning in this particular case, I meant the general expression "writing bicycles". Does it mean an overly flourished, too expressive way of something which could be done concisely? 2014-06-05T07:35:12Z hitecnologys: H4ns: huh, sounds cool. 2014-06-05T07:35:46Z H4ns accepts the cookie 2014-06-05T07:36:24Z hitecnologys: ck_: ah, it means reinventing something that has already benn invented, but doing it in an inefficient way. 2014-06-05T07:36:35Z ck_: hitecnologys: thank you. 2014-06-05T07:36:38Z huza quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T07:37:46Z p_l|backup: hitecnologys: so, it's the stuff to put in the bikeshed? 2014-06-05T07:38:05Z huza joined #lisp 2014-06-05T07:38:12Z p_l joined #lisp 2014-06-05T07:40:37Z hitecnologys: p_l|backup: err, not sure I get the meaning of this phrase. 2014-06-05T07:41:07Z p_l|backup: http://bikeshed.com/ 2014-06-05T07:41:17Z p_l|backup: and parkinson's law of triviality 2014-06-05T07:41:24Z jasom has heard of reinventing the wheel, but not writing the bicycle 2014-06-05T07:41:45Z H4ns: he made it up. 2014-06-05T07:42:00Z H4ns: but shhh, it is a secret 2014-06-05T07:42:06Z p_l|backup: lol 2014-06-05T07:42:20Z p_l|backup: it just felt so right to be coupled with painting the bikeshed 2014-06-05T07:42:35Z hitecnologys: Ah, now I get it. 2014-06-05T07:43:07Z p_l quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-05T07:43:15Z joe-w-bimedina joined #lisp 2014-06-05T07:43:25Z ck_: but what color is the bikeshed in hereford? 2014-06-05T07:44:13Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-05T07:44:28Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-05T07:44:28Z BinaryMcAwesome quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-05T07:44:31Z p_l joined #lisp 2014-06-05T07:45:53Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-06-05T07:46:13Z hitecnologys: Have no idea. 2014-06-05T07:49:51Z hitecnologys: p_l|backup: sorry for being slow, I've just got your question. Yes, it's the stuff to put in the bikeshed, I guess. I don't think "write the bicycle" exists in English, I've took that one from Russian and translated literally into English. 2014-06-05T07:50:22Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T07:50:28Z madist joined #lisp 2014-06-05T07:51:41Z JokerDoomWork joined #lisp 2014-06-05T07:51:41Z zenyfish joined #lisp 2014-06-05T07:53:56Z BinaryMcAwesome joined #lisp 2014-06-05T07:55:21Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-05T07:56:24Z JokerDoomWork quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-05T07:56:54Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-05T07:57:47Z segv- quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-05T08:00:22Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-05T08:05:07Z p_l quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-05T08:05:54Z madist left #lisp 2014-06-05T08:07:10Z Beetny joined #lisp 2014-06-05T08:07:47Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2014-06-05T08:14:16Z joe-w-bimedina: does CFFI have any type of pointer "class" I can add to the param list of a defmethod to make the input to the method have to be a pointer? e.g. (arg pointer) 2014-06-05T08:15:02Z loke: joe-w-bimedina: I don't think so, since it uses whatever the underlying Lisp implementation uses for pointers 2014-06-05T08:15:10Z loke: (which could be integers in some case) 2014-06-05T08:17:26Z joe-w-bimedina: ok thanks , and If I call a defgeneric in a conditional and the correct condition activates the defgeneric, will the defgeneric then call the method associated with the parameters the defgeneric 2014-06-05T08:17:41Z p_l joined #lisp 2014-06-05T08:17:44Z joe-w-bimedina: recieves 2014-06-05T08:19:08Z bjorkintosh quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-05T08:21:39Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2014-06-05T08:25:03Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T08:25:21Z huza quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T08:26:35Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-06-05T08:27:00Z loke: joe-w-bimedina: well, you can think of it that way 2014-06-05T08:27:55Z loke: When you call a generic method, there is a process called the method combination that determines what will actually run based on the arguments you passed 2014-06-05T08:29:03Z joe-w-bimedina: so the generic is kind of like the cond statement and the defmethods are the conditions inside of it right 2014-06-05T08:29:12Z recl quit (Quit: recl) 2014-06-05T08:29:13Z nilsi__ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T08:29:46Z ufd joined #lisp 2014-06-05T08:30:28Z joe-w-bimedina: never mind, that's pretty much just what you said, thanks for getting back to on this:) 2014-06-05T08:30:42Z Sir_herrbatka joined #lisp 2014-06-05T08:31:33Z shridhar joined #lisp 2014-06-05T08:31:38Z nilsi_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T08:32:00Z hpd joined #lisp 2014-06-05T08:32:11Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-05T08:32:37Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2014-06-05T08:33:51Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T08:36:52Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T08:36:58Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2014-06-05T08:39:20Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-06-05T08:42:46Z BinaryMcAwesome quit (Quit: Old soldiers never die, they just fade away.) 2014-06-05T08:44:13Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-05T08:44:37Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-05T08:45:30Z BinaryMcAwesome joined #lisp 2014-06-05T08:48:16Z owl-v- joined #lisp 2014-06-05T08:50:19Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-05T08:51:30Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: one other thing, remember it dispatches on classes, not types. So you can e.g. specialize a method on string, but not base-string. 2014-06-05T08:54:07Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks, is there any link you know of that would get me started learning how to create method, under tha same generic function, that have different numbers of params. I kinda need to master that 2014-06-05T08:54:15Z joe-w-bimedina: create methods 2014-06-05T08:54:36Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: you cannot learn it because it is not possible 2014-06-05T08:54:43Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-06-05T08:54:56Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-05T08:56:15Z joe-w-bimedina: I meant some sort of workaround with &rest or &optional params, 2014-06-05T08:56:56Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: i thought you wanted to create a library that like a professional lisp programmer? if that is the case, i'd suggest that you don't try to work around like that. 2014-06-05T08:57:00Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-05T08:57:18Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-06-05T08:59:00Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-06-05T09:00:22Z GuilOooo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T09:00:41Z GuilOooo joined #lisp 2014-06-05T09:01:28Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T09:01:49Z mal_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-05T09:02:34Z joe-w-bimedina: but I guess not being able to do that is a good thing right. if so what are a couple of the good things about that, and are there ways in Lisp to call something like methods, but not of course, by the same name, each one having different numbers of params. 2014-06-05T09:03:35Z frkout__ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T09:03:54Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: you need to understand that lisp is not c++ and does not have a way to select a method based on arity. there is nothing to debate here. it is just a feature that is not available, no matter how hard you want it. 2014-06-05T09:05:05Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-05T09:05:19Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: you can certainly come up with your own ways of making something that has what you want, but as you are trying to write a "professional library" and talk about how your library will eventually be useable by others, you should think hard about how hard you want to bend common lisp into the shape that you desire. 2014-06-05T09:06:28Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: you could, for example, invent some custom defun-lookalike macro that generates run-time method selection code based on arity. it is not all that hard, really. 2014-06-05T09:06:59Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-05T09:07:15Z frkout_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-05T09:07:29Z joe-w-bimedina: Could you help me figure out how to do that, I see that type of thing done alot actually 2014-06-05T09:07:38Z joe-w-bimedina: even a link 2014-06-05T09:07:50Z H4ns: use your brain, if you have one. 2014-06-05T09:07:55Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-05T09:09:17Z joe-w-bimedina: Ok so i would basically be designing something from scratch with basic tools then, Ok, thanks for the direction, I'll see what I can come up with 2014-06-05T09:11:54Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: let me advice you against it. just imagine if you write something like a my-defun that can select a function based on the arity of the argument list: what do you think will happen with M-.? i can tell you: it would stop working. 2014-06-05T09:12:23Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: while such things can have educational value, they are a pain to use in production environments because they break tools and programmer expectations. 2014-06-05T09:15:08Z joe-w-bimedina: I was hoping you would give me your opinion on the two, this is really helping me get into the swing of things, btw do you end up sending your C errors when you wrap C with CFFI to the lisp debugger, or do you just make a macro to get to inferior lisp quickly 2014-06-05T09:18:30Z H4ns: when i write something that involves mapping foreign code into lisp, i certainly try to map errors in the foreign code to lisp conditions. 2014-06-05T09:19:10Z joe-w-bimedina: can you do it without much speed increase 2014-06-05T09:19:15Z H4ns: hu? 2014-06-05T09:19:17Z jdz: i tend to write the low-level one-to-one mapping first, and then build better interface on top of that 2014-06-05T09:19:43Z joe-w-bimedina: ok thanks, that will get me started 2014-06-05T09:20:12Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-06-05T09:20:32Z joe-w-bimedina: H4ns: If you doing low-level mapping like jdz then that answers my question 2014-06-05T09:20:42Z H4ns: aha 2014-06-05T09:23:02Z drewc quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-05T09:24:41Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-05T09:24:59Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-05T09:25:59Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-05T09:26:29Z stassats` joined #lisp 2014-06-05T09:31:47Z mal_ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T09:33:45Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T09:37:37Z _schulte_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T09:38:58Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-05T09:39:43Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-05T09:40:32Z KCL_ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T09:41:31Z n0n0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T09:42:52Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T09:43:03Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T09:44:24Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-05T09:48:45Z ggole quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-05T09:49:55Z ggole joined #lisp 2014-06-05T09:50:48Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-05T09:51:14Z arenz joined #lisp 2014-06-05T09:51:28Z karupa is now known as zz_karupa 2014-06-05T09:52:46Z optikalmouse quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-05T09:53:35Z harish_ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T09:53:49Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-06-05T09:53:53Z frkout__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-05T09:55:07Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-05T09:55:39Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-05T09:56:39Z hpd left #lisp 2014-06-05T09:57:09Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-05T09:59:28Z nug700 quit (Quit: bye) 2014-06-05T10:01:40Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-05T10:05:13Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-05T10:06:23Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-05T10:06:58Z K1rk quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-05T10:09:36Z K1rk joined #lisp 2014-06-05T10:13:25Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T10:16:58Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-06-05T10:17:29Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-05T10:20:03Z Beetny quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-05T10:23:06Z ggole joined #lisp 2014-06-05T10:24:19Z joe-w-bimedina: heddwch: are you around today 2014-06-05T10:25:03Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T10:25:30Z harish joined #lisp 2014-06-05T10:26:02Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-05T10:26:58Z michael_lee quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-05T10:35:08Z Beetny joined #lisp 2014-06-05T10:36:11Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-05T10:36:36Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-06-05T10:39:05Z p_l quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-05T10:41:14Z joe-w-bimedina: If anyone wants to help me tackle this, I am making a c++ vector using a cffi binding, it is full of Vec objects, here is the class definition for Vec: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/a1c5dc3f2eddf83d27fb In this case the Vec objects I'm putting into the vector are typedef Vec Vec2s; there are many typedefs like this for the vector class, the uchar,short, and ushort can't seemed to be mem-ref'ed in CFFI but the float, int and dou 2014-06-05T10:41:15Z joe-w-bimedina: ble all can be. I made special accessors to transfer the data directly to Lisp, and even those are failing, though they work in C/C++. Any help on this is much appreciated 2014-06-05T10:46:35Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2014-06-05T10:47:41Z REPLeffect quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-05T10:48:38Z hlavaty: is there a portable way to truncate a stream, or do i have to go via something like sb-posix:ftruncate? 2014-06-05T10:50:29Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-05T10:51:27Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-06-05T10:54:53Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-05T10:57:20Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-06-05T10:58:36Z REPLeffect joined #lisp 2014-06-05T11:01:48Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-06-05T11:02:21Z owl-v- quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-06-05T11:06:55Z hlavaty: hmm, i was hoping to rewind *standard-output* but thats not going to work. how do you guys rotate logs without restarting the whole lisp (if the log redirection is from outside)? or is it better to supply custom *standard-output* etc and rotate it from within the lisp instance? 2014-06-05T11:09:49Z JokerDoomWork joined #lisp 2014-06-05T11:12:17Z REPLeffect quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-05T11:13:03Z p_l joined #lisp 2014-06-05T11:13:36Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-05T11:14:23Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-05T11:21:46Z H4ns: hlavaty: i write to a stream that i open explicitly, and i either open the file for appending for every write, or close and reopen when I need to rotate 2014-06-05T11:23:27Z hlavaty: H4ns: i see, do you also bind that stream to *standard-output* / *standard-error* ? 2014-06-05T11:23:36Z zickzackv joined #lisp 2014-06-05T11:24:14Z H4ns: hlavaty: usually not, no. i don't archive the *standard-output*/*standard-error* of my servers 2014-06-05T11:24:31Z hlavaty: ok thanks for ideas 2014-06-05T11:25:38Z loke quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-05T11:27:03Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-05T11:27:16Z pranavrc_ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T11:27:20Z YDJX joined #lisp 2014-06-05T11:27:21Z pranavrc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T11:27:29Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-05T11:28:33Z kcj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T11:29:08Z atgreen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T11:34:36Z dandersen joined #lisp 2014-06-05T11:37:19Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-05T11:38:13Z Joreji_ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T11:46:06Z chu joined #lisp 2014-06-05T11:46:45Z JuniorRoy joined #lisp 2014-06-05T11:50:32Z Faulty joined #lisp 2014-06-05T11:56:38Z Faulty: This book http://goo.gl/bw6i0H uses scheme to explain stuff. In an attempt to have a lisp programming environment so I can work through this book I’ve installed LispBox http://common-lisp.net/project/lispbox/ for OS X. But it’s set up for common lisp. Because I’m not familiar with lisp at all, can anyone tell me if LispBox will suffice, or if I need to make some changes, and if so what they might be? 2014-06-05T11:56:58Z H4ns: Faulty: lispbox is common lisp, not scheme 2014-06-05T11:57:07Z H4ns: Faulty: for scheme, see #scheme 2014-06-05T11:57:24Z stassats`: something like racket has an ide 2014-06-05T12:00:02Z Faulty: H4ns: stassats: thanks 2014-06-05T12:03:10Z Sgeo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-05T12:03:41Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-05T12:03:53Z ikki joined #lisp 2014-06-05T12:06:54Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-05T12:07:48Z ustunozg_ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T12:08:31Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T12:08:38Z teiresias quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T12:09:06Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-06-05T12:09:47Z ccorn joined #lisp 2014-06-05T12:10:18Z ustunozgur quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T12:11:41Z Joreji_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-05T12:12:33Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T12:14:26Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-05T12:16:16Z c3w joined #lisp 2014-06-05T12:20:19Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-05T12:23:06Z ccorn quit (Quit: ccorn) 2014-06-05T12:23:10Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T12:24:16Z ccorn joined #lisp 2014-06-05T12:25:08Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-05T12:25:36Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T12:26:21Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-05T12:29:23Z l_a_m quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-05T12:31:47Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T12:32:53Z juanlas joined #lisp 2014-06-05T12:33:17Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-06-05T12:34:34Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-06-05T12:37:51Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-05T12:38:09Z iAran quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T12:38:18Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T12:39:28Z sixbitslacker joined #lisp 2014-06-05T12:41:50Z ccorn quit (Quit: ccorn) 2014-06-05T12:41:59Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-06-05T12:43:41Z ccorn joined #lisp 2014-06-05T12:46:28Z drewc joined #lisp 2014-06-05T12:49:49Z l_a_m joined #lisp 2014-06-05T12:50:05Z Adlai: any ideas why one SBCL process could timeout on any socket connection to the outside world, but another identical SBCL process works fine? 2014-06-05T12:50:10Z Adlai: (from the same computer) 2014-06-05T12:50:35Z mal_: try stracing both 2014-06-05T12:50:53Z Adlai: I am, can you point me which calls to look for? 2014-06-05T12:51:06Z stassats`: select? 2014-06-05T12:51:08Z hitecnologys: Adlai: can you provide the code? 2014-06-05T12:51:19Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-05T12:51:21Z mal_: connect() I guess 2014-06-05T12:51:29Z drewc quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-05T12:51:35Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-05T12:51:58Z Adlai: hitecnologys: it crashes on any http-request. I think straces are more useful, coming in a moment... 2014-06-05T12:52:03Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-05T12:52:50Z stassats`: i had a problem where i couldn't resolve a hostname after some time 2014-06-05T12:53:11Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T12:53:19Z JuanDaugherty: 1 or more bugs apparently 2014-06-05T12:55:39Z JuanDaugherty: and/or a failure of understanding of the socket server if it's not under dev 2014-06-05T12:56:34Z Adlai: http://pastebin.com/wbDZNdAL 2014-06-05T12:57:50Z stassats`: so, at what point is the problem? 2014-06-05T12:58:21Z stassats`: oh, i see 2014-06-05T12:58:22Z davazp joined #lisp 2014-06-05T12:59:18Z kcj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T12:59:21Z ramkrsna quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-05T12:59:52Z teiresias joined #lisp 2014-06-05T13:00:29Z Adlai: in the trace that i pasted, there was a 20 second timeout 2014-06-05T13:00:41Z Adlai: i'm tracing now what happens with :connection-timeout nil 2014-06-05T13:01:05Z stassats`: communications with slime makes things a but murky 2014-06-05T13:01:53Z JuanDaugherty: Adlai, it makes me mad you didn't post the lisp code other than thru that write command 2014-06-05T13:03:04Z ustunozg_ quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2014-06-05T13:03:41Z hitecnologys: Adlai: have you tried using iolib? usocket has certain problems, one of which results in something similar to what you have. 2014-06-05T13:04:14Z lduros joined #lisp 2014-06-05T13:05:02Z zwer_g joined #lisp 2014-06-05T13:05:12Z zwer quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-05T13:05:59Z stassats`: Adlai: i actually don't see any progress in the thread that after setitimer 2014-06-05T13:06:58Z hitecnologys: Adlai: also try sniffing. 2014-06-05T13:07:12Z pranavrc_ quit 2014-06-05T13:07:23Z Adlai: JuanDaugherty: here you go - http://pastebin.com/TpEgVxnt 2014-06-05T13:07:36Z Adlai: not much lisp code to see here... 2014-06-05T13:08:51Z JuanDaugherty: i guess 2014-06-05T13:09:16Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-05T13:09:16Z JuanDaugherty: also unclear how you're supposed to get drakma to use iolib 2014-06-05T13:09:49Z Faulty quit (Quit: cos I Quitz!) 2014-06-05T13:09:59Z JuanDaugherty: other than the obvious 2014-06-05T13:10:17Z hitecnologys: JuanDaugherty: I didn't mean to make drakma use it, I suggested just trying plain iolib. 2014-06-05T13:10:22Z JuanDaugherty: (i.e. modify it to use iolib instead) 2014-06-05T13:10:40Z JuanDaugherty: hitecnologys, rik 2014-06-05T13:11:40Z hitecnologys: JuanDaugherty: rik? 2014-06-05T13:12:10Z zwer_g quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-05T13:12:36Z sroy_ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T13:12:38Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-05T13:13:40Z ivan\ quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-05T13:13:43Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T13:13:55Z stassats`: Adlai: does it wait 20 seconds? 2014-06-05T13:14:23Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T13:15:25Z Adlai: the one without a :connection-timeout parameter waited 20 seconds before the timeout killed it. the one with :connection-timeout nil hasn't had anything change yet 2014-06-05T13:15:44Z febeling joined #lisp 2014-06-05T13:16:03Z stassats`: can you make it without a time-out, interrupt and paste the lisp backtrace? 2014-06-05T13:16:18Z febeling left #lisp 2014-06-05T13:16:43Z JuanDaugherty: rik: right i know 2014-06-05T13:17:10Z fortitude joined #lisp 2014-06-05T13:18:07Z JokerDoomWork quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-05T13:18:08Z hitecnologys: Ah, I see. 2014-06-05T13:19:25Z stassats`: Adlai: and maybe also try ltrace 2014-06-05T13:19:44Z Fare joined #lisp 2014-06-05T13:20:27Z karbak joined #lisp 2014-06-05T13:20:50Z TristamWrk joined #lisp 2014-06-05T13:20:56Z TristamWrk quit (Changing host) 2014-06-05T13:20:56Z TristamWrk joined #lisp 2014-06-05T13:21:59Z djinni` quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-05T13:22:25Z owl-v- joined #lisp 2014-06-05T13:23:41Z Adlai: stassats`: backtrace on the way and installing ltrace 2014-06-05T13:24:03Z Adlai: JuanDaugherty, hitecnologys, thanks for the suggestion about iolib, i'll have a look if usocket remains problematic 2014-06-05T13:24:19Z JuanDaugherty: np 2014-06-05T13:25:11Z djinni` joined #lisp 2014-06-05T13:26:53Z dlowe: thinking about setting up my own quicklisp repo now for my local non-distributed stuff 2014-06-05T13:29:44Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-06-05T13:31:09Z Xach: o pioneers! 2014-06-05T13:31:12Z davazp quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-05T13:31:33Z Adlai: stassats`: http://pastebin.com/qv8TXRvL 2014-06-05T13:32:10Z kpreid quit (Quit: Quitting) 2014-06-05T13:32:12Z fortitude: dlowe: I did the same thing a while ago with quickdist, and it seemed to work pretty well 2014-06-05T13:32:25Z fortitude: think I ditched it when I found out that dists weren't relocatable 2014-06-05T13:32:28Z kpreid joined #lisp 2014-06-05T13:33:14Z Adlai: the previous paste has the backtrace colorized badly, here's a better version - http://pastebin.com/2yJ2vpiH 2014-06-05T13:33:59Z drewc joined #lisp 2014-06-05T13:34:03Z stassats`: ok, that doesn't tell much, waiting for the ltrace 2014-06-05T13:34:27Z dlowe: fortitude: what do you mean by relocatable? 2014-06-05T13:34:29Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-06-05T13:34:41Z dlowe: like, there's not a mirror list or something? 2014-06-05T13:35:11Z vert2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T13:35:39Z fortitude: dlowe: last I checked quicklisp dists use absolute pathnames for everything 2014-06-05T13:35:55Z dlowe: ah, I see. 2014-06-05T13:36:00Z fortitude: so if you make yourself a dist, you won't be able to move it to a different folder or copy it across machines without some issues 2014-06-05T13:36:06Z stassats`: and i get "Unhandled SIGILL.", which is lovely 2014-06-05T13:36:26Z stassats`: probably due to strace or ltrace 2014-06-05T13:38:24Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-06-05T13:40:57Z dlowe: Xach: feature request! 2014-06-05T13:41:16Z stassats`: a job for logical pathnames! 2014-06-05T13:43:41Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-05T13:44:08Z setmeaway joined #lisp 2014-06-05T13:44:33Z segv- joined #lisp 2014-06-05T13:45:07Z Adlai: stassats`: any specific options you'd like to see in ltrace? 2014-06-05T13:45:25Z stassats`: no, i'm not familiar with any 2014-06-05T13:45:33Z stassats`: maybe -r 2014-06-05T13:45:47Z Xach: dlowe: what's up? 2014-06-05T13:46:06Z harish joined #lisp 2014-06-05T13:46:13Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T13:46:36Z dlowe: Xach: Just fortitude's comment about running a QL repo 2014-06-05T13:46:39Z Xach: I don't get it. 2014-06-05T13:46:53Z Xach: I might, with examples - can't pick it up from the stream of discussion, sorry. 2014-06-05T13:46:57Z Kenjin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-05T13:47:24Z dlowe: ah, well. There's not much other context. I thought you might know, being familiar with it 2014-06-05T13:47:36Z dandersen is now known as dkcl 2014-06-05T13:47:53Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T13:48:41Z stassats`: what i think happens is that with-local-interrupts blocks 2014-06-05T13:48:43Z Xach: Quicklisp in fact uses relative paths for lots of things 2014-06-05T13:49:05Z Xach: File archives are specified with absolute URLs...is that what's meant? 2014-06-05T13:49:15Z fortitude: Xach: that might be it 2014-06-05T13:49:30Z fortitude: to be honest, it's been quite a while since I looked, and it might have been a quickdist problem 2014-06-05T13:49:54Z Xach: Sadly, I do not have a controlling interest in every project prefixed with "quick" 2014-06-05T13:50:02Z Xach: Too slow at the trademark office :( 2014-06-05T13:51:11Z fortitude: I'll test it, if I can remember how you add a new dist 2014-06-05T13:53:04Z Okasu quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-05T13:54:32Z Adlai: odd, i get "Cannot attach to pid 15834: Operation not permitted" even when running as root 2014-06-05T13:55:35Z hitecnologys: Adlai: do you have any MAC systems? 2014-06-05T13:55:46Z hitecnologys: Adlai: like SELinux or AppArmor? 2014-06-05T13:56:21Z stassats`: Adlai: /proc/sys/kernel/yama/ptrace_scope 2014-06-05T13:58:03Z Adlai: hitecnologys: not that i know of, just a vanilla archlinux install 2014-06-05T13:58:37Z hitecnologys: Adlai: hmm, did you configure kernel yourself of just used the one provided? 2014-06-05T13:58:40Z Adlai: stassats`: 1 2014-06-05T13:58:46Z stassats`: make it 0 2014-06-05T13:58:46Z Adlai: hitecnologys: provided one 2014-06-05T13:59:12Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T13:59:14Z Adlai: stassats`: no change... 2014-06-05T13:59:36Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T14:00:11Z stassats`: ok, then rerun strace with -r 2014-06-05T14:00:32Z davazp joined #lisp 2014-06-05T14:00:45Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-06-05T14:00:49Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T14:04:34Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-05T14:07:34Z cocosp joined #lisp 2014-06-05T14:07:43Z Adlai: still doesn't want to attach to running processes (starting a new process works fine, but this error only happens in processes after they've been running forever... 2014-06-05T14:07:43Z eudoxia quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-05T14:08:00Z Adlai: for values of "ever" roughly exceeding 24 hours 2014-06-05T14:08:43Z stassats`: this may be related 2014-06-05T14:09:05Z stassats`: anyhow, strace with timings (-r) might be helpful 2014-06-05T14:09:25Z mu5k17u joined #lisp 2014-06-05T14:14:54Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-05T14:16:16Z Adlai: oh, in the strace, i have a few functions suppressed - rt_sigprocmask,gettimeofday,futex,nanosleep 2014-06-05T14:16:21Z Adlai: are these of any interest? 2014-06-05T14:16:47Z stassats`: well, since there isn't anything else to go from, everything is interesting 2014-06-05T14:16:51Z Adlai: they get called very frequently and were obscuring what i was looking for earlier 2014-06-05T14:17:50Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T14:18:30Z anddcs joined #lisp 2014-06-05T14:20:02Z ikki quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-05T14:21:06Z stassats`: i totally missed that get-random-host-by-name is under the time out 2014-06-05T14:21:13Z stassats`: that's what i had problems with too 2014-06-05T14:22:45Z hitecnologys: stassats`: 4 months ago and you couldn't reproduce it. 2014-06-05T14:22:55Z stassats`: i had it several times before that too 2014-06-05T14:23:20Z hitecnologys: Did you figure out what the hell causes that? 2014-06-05T14:23:33Z stassats`: i didn't reproduce it, so, no 2014-06-05T14:23:40Z stassats`: Adlai: if you specify the google ip, does it work? 2014-06-05T14:24:37Z Adlai: stassats`: nice! yes 2014-06-05T14:24:57Z stassats`: at least that's familiar 2014-06-05T14:24:59Z Adlai: so it's a DNS resolution problem, limited to just this process and its children 2014-06-05T14:25:29Z Adlai: the simplest solution right now is to have a watchdog that just restarts the process when this happens 2014-06-05T14:25:47Z Adlai: unless there's a way to reset the way usocket makes the dns queriesL 2014-06-05T14:25:50Z Adlai: ? 2014-06-05T14:26:07Z hitecnologys: Adlai: what kernel version do you use? 2014-06-05T14:26:08Z stassats`: it's better to find out what the problem is and fix it 2014-06-05T14:27:13Z Adlai digs into usocket host resolution 2014-06-05T14:27:13Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2014-06-05T14:27:29Z stassats`: you need to look in sb-bsd-sockets 2014-06-05T14:27:31Z Adlai: hitecnologys: 3.14.2-1-ARCH #1 SMP PREEMPT Sun Apr 27 11:28:45 CEST 2014 i686 GNU/Linux 2014-06-05T14:27:36Z hitecnologys: Adlai: it's not usocket problem. The problem is, apparently, in sbcl itself. 2014-06-05T14:28:19Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T14:28:41Z ccorn quit (Quit: ccorn) 2014-06-05T14:29:07Z cocosp quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-05T14:29:34Z hitecnologys: stassats`: is his kernel version close to yours? 2014-06-05T14:29:49Z stassats`: i wouldn't think about the kernel, glibc 2014-06-05T14:30:00Z hitecnologys: Ah, right. 2014-06-05T14:30:18Z yrdz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T14:30:18Z hitecnologys: Adlai: what's your glibc version then? 2014-06-05T14:30:29Z stassats`: i don't think it matters much 2014-06-05T14:30:42Z Adlai: from sb-bsd-sockets:get-host-by-name's docstring, "Returns a HOST-ENT instance for HOST-NAME or signals a NAME-SERVICE-ERROR"... wouldn't that mean it should take a timeout parameter? 2014-06-05T14:30:59Z hitecnologys: stassats`: it may. I had similar problem with C++ a few years ago. 2014-06-05T14:31:33Z Adlai: hitecnologys: v2.19, built on Wed 23 Apr 2014 2014-06-05T14:31:33Z hitecnologys: stassats`: it may not be directly related but it looks similar. 2014-06-05T14:31:50Z stassats`: Adlai: nothing in sb-bsd-sockets really has timeouts 2014-06-05T14:33:22Z iAran joined #lisp 2014-06-05T14:34:07Z prxq joined #lisp 2014-06-05T14:34:22Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-05T14:35:19Z anddcs left #lisp 2014-06-05T14:35:21Z njsg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T14:36:55Z njsg joined #lisp 2014-06-05T14:37:22Z billstclair quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-05T14:38:05Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-05T14:40:43Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-06-05T14:43:03Z rszeno joined #lisp 2014-06-05T14:43:35Z nilsi__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-05T14:43:42Z nydel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T14:43:59Z mordocai joined #lisp 2014-06-05T14:44:04Z nydel joined #lisp 2014-06-05T14:44:40Z yrdz joined #lisp 2014-06-05T14:47:29Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-05T14:49:18Z nilsi_ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T14:54:20Z nvmme joined #lisp 2014-06-05T14:56:28Z nvmme quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-05T14:56:33Z p_l quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T15:00:00Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-05T15:00:08Z stassats`: Adlai: run (sb-bsd-sockets:get-host-by-name "google.com") attach gdb to it and paste the backtrace 2014-06-05T15:00:10Z hitecnologys: Well, I have no idea what may cause such behaviour. 2014-06-05T15:00:27Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-06-05T15:00:31Z stassats`: a deadlock 2014-06-05T15:00:37Z hitecnologys: Hm. 2014-06-05T15:00:57Z iAran quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T15:01:32Z hitecnologys: What if some interrupt triggers it? Explains why it's not easily reproducable. 2014-06-05T15:01:45Z AdmiralBumbleBee quit (Quit: AdmiralBumbleBee) 2014-06-05T15:01:49Z stassats`: it's thread safe, but probably not interrupt safe 2014-06-05T15:02:30Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-05T15:02:47Z hitecnologys: So, it may be caused by interrupts? 2014-06-05T15:03:28Z kanru` joined #lisp 2014-06-05T15:03:57Z AdmiralBumbleBee joined #lisp 2014-06-05T15:04:54Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-05T15:07:40Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-05T15:10:12Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-05T15:10:46Z nvmme joined #lisp 2014-06-05T15:11:21Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T15:12:41Z nvmme quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-05T15:13:28Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-05T15:15:18Z yrdz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-05T15:15:55Z Guest54861 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-05T15:16:31Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-05T15:18:10Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-05T15:18:13Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T15:18:24Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-05T15:21:42Z drmeiste_ is now known as drmeister 2014-06-05T15:23:08Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-05T15:24:47Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-06-05T15:25:17Z Adlai: wonderful, crashed my lisp... 2014-06-05T15:25:26Z Adlai: it seemed to be dying around the first FFI calls in get-host-by-name 2014-06-05T15:25:43Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Exit IRC/Hibernate) 2014-06-05T15:25:43Z varjag quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-05T15:27:44Z Adlai: attaching ltrace to a new sbcl process causes sbcl to segfault 2014-06-05T15:28:41Z Adlai: that was after connecting to swank though, trying now to attach ltrace before slime 2014-06-05T15:30:43Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-05T15:31:07Z Fizzixnerd joined #lisp 2014-06-05T15:31:10Z Fizzixnerd: two questions 2014-06-05T15:31:10Z minion: Fizzixnerd, memo from pjb: beware, line numbers keep changing (think insert, delete line). My advice: write line numbers in the first column, so the user can assign fixed line numbers. 2014-06-05T15:31:10Z minion: Fizzixnerd, memo from pjb: for example: http://paste.lisp.org/+3266 2014-06-05T15:31:14Z Adlai: sbcl with ltrace attached takes a loooong time to start up... 2014-06-05T15:31:51Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-06-05T15:32:21Z marsbot is now known as marsam 2014-06-05T15:32:52Z Fizzixnerd: first is whether anyone else felt really dumb when they found destructing bind and realized it could replace endless (let ((a (car l)) (b cadr) ...)) forms, and second whether there is ever a reason to use the let form instead of the destructuring bind? 2014-06-05T15:33:12Z oGMo: besides all the time? 2014-06-05T15:33:27Z Bike: on the many, many occasions when you want to bind to something other than parts of a list 2014-06-05T15:33:29Z oGMo: destructuring-bind is probably slow a lot of the time 2014-06-05T15:33:42Z stassats`: destructuring-bind is used for destructuring 2014-06-05T15:33:47Z Fizzixnerd: right, sorry 2014-06-05T15:33:50Z jdz: Fizzixnerd: why not use structures or CLOS? 2014-06-05T15:33:52Z Fizzixnerd: I meant when destructing 2014-06-05T15:34:08Z Fizzixnerd: jdz: parsing a syntax tree which has been just read 2014-06-05T15:34:16Z oGMo: Fizzixnerd: when you need more complexity that destructuring-bind can provide, e.g., what optima can do 2014-06-05T15:34:18Z Fizzixnerd: jdz: functions with these forms return CLOS objects 2014-06-05T15:34:33Z Fizzixnerd: alright, thank you 2014-06-05T15:34:33Z oGMo: though i rarely have need for that myself 2014-06-05T15:34:51Z Fizzixnerd: why cant you not destructure function arguments? 2014-06-05T15:34:57Z Fizzixnerd: can you not* 2014-06-05T15:35:03Z stassats`: Adlai: one solution would be to reimplement sb-bsd-sockets with a proper timeout 2014-06-05T15:35:12Z stassats`: i.e. nonblocking, with select/poll 2014-06-05T15:35:35Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-06-05T15:35:57Z tesuji joined #lisp 2014-06-05T15:36:06Z stassats`: that way no interrupts will be able to mess up getaddrinfo 2014-06-05T15:36:20Z Fizzixnerd: is it because it would slowdown all function calls or something? 2014-06-05T15:36:44Z stassats`: Fizzixnerd: because it's not needed 2014-06-05T15:36:57Z _schulte_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T15:37:02Z Fizzixnerd: stassats: then why can you destructure macro arguments? 2014-06-05T15:37:12Z stassats`: because it's needed 2014-06-05T15:37:16Z Fizzixnerd: I love you 2014-06-05T15:37:41Z Fizzixnerd: what do you mean by "needed" in this situation? 2014-06-05T15:38:12Z Adlai: hmm 2014-06-05T15:38:17Z stassats`: macros work on source code, which is constructed of lists 2014-06-05T15:38:31Z stassats`: functions do not have such specialization 2014-06-05T15:38:42Z Fizzixnerd: you're absolutely right, of course 2014-06-05T15:38:43Z oGMo: Fizzixnerd: write more code and see 2014-06-05T15:38:50Z Fizzixnerd: thanks you 2014-06-05T15:39:11Z Fizzixnerd: the one time it is somewhat annoying is when writing a lisp parser using functions 2014-06-05T15:39:18Z oGMo: if you need to destructure, use destructuring-bind; otherwise don't ... if you're doing that at runtime, you may be doing something wrong 2014-06-05T15:39:19Z Fizzixnerd: but that's not really a good reason to add it for all the time 2014-06-05T15:39:22Z stassats`: Adlai: a simple fix would be to hoist out get-host-by-name from the with-timeout 2014-06-05T15:39:36Z stassats`: if that's indeed the problem, but i can't think of anything else 2014-06-05T15:39:40Z oGMo: Fizzixnerd: you shouldn't be writing a parser using destructuring-bind 2014-06-05T15:40:05Z Fizzixnerd: oGMo: Not even as an unsafe prototype? 2014-06-05T15:40:07Z oGMo: it's meant for destructuring macro-style lambda-lists, and nothing else 2014-06-05T15:41:07Z Fizzixnerd: oGMo: a function declaration in cicl looks like (defun-sym funtion-name lambda-list return-type-specifier &rest body) 2014-06-05T15:41:30Z Fizzixnerd: if there is a body, it's a function declaration 2014-06-05T15:41:33Z Fizzixnerd: has* 2014-06-05T15:41:36Z Fizzixnerd: definition** 2014-06-05T15:42:14Z Fizzixnerd: otherwise it's a declaration; I think this situation, given that it's using &rest parameters to good effect would be an effective use of destructuring-bind 2014-06-05T15:42:15Z stassats`: i'm not sure how to make getaddrinfo with a timeout 2014-06-05T15:42:24Z stassats`: short of writing a resolver 2014-06-05T15:43:12Z Xach: that is what i did 2014-06-05T15:43:15Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T15:43:19Z Xach: wigflip is mission-critical 2014-06-05T15:43:43Z Xach: of course, that circumvents all the important weird things you can do with the resolver as a system administrator 2014-06-05T15:43:50Z Xach: fortunately, i'm the system administrator and not very weird 2014-06-05T15:43:54Z stassats`: there's getaddrinfo_a 2014-06-05T15:43:56Z Xach: nor important 2014-06-05T15:45:40Z Fizzixnerd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T15:46:28Z c74d quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-05T15:46:45Z stassats`: though is getaddrinfo_a glibc specific 2014-06-05T15:47:54Z Fizzixnerd joined #lisp 2014-06-05T15:48:25Z stassats`: i can add getaddrinfo_a and slap without-interrupts on getaddrinfo otherwise 2014-06-05T15:49:41Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-05T15:49:47Z cocosp joined #lisp 2014-06-05T15:50:09Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-05T15:51:26Z gingerale joined #lisp 2014-06-05T15:52:31Z c74d joined #lisp 2014-06-05T15:53:19Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-05T15:53:54Z stassats`: iolib implements a resolver 2014-06-05T15:54:50Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-05T15:55:29Z Fizzixnerd quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-05T15:56:02Z nydel quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-05T15:56:14Z nydel joined #lisp 2014-06-05T15:56:46Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T15:57:08Z stassats`: though iolib doesn't work on windows, and probably not on android, right away 2014-06-05T15:57:54Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T15:58:30Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-05T15:58:42Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-05T15:58:42Z nand1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-05T15:59:32Z Adlai: stassats`: thank you for the suggestions... my "quick fix" is to just restart when the deadlock happens, but i think using iolib will suffice for my situation 2014-06-05T15:59:36Z Adlai: (one app running on a linux machine) 2014-06-05T15:59:37Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-06-05T15:59:45Z RenJuan joined #lisp 2014-06-05T15:59:45Z RenJuan quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-05T15:59:57Z Hydan quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-05T16:04:42Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-05T16:05:41Z effy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-05T16:06:22Z nilsi_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T16:06:58Z kanru` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T16:07:21Z effy joined #lisp 2014-06-05T16:07:40Z michael_lee joined #lisp 2014-06-05T16:09:11Z ThomasH joined #lisp 2014-06-05T16:09:18Z ThomasH: Greetings lispers! 2014-06-05T16:09:37Z prxq: hi ThomasH 2014-06-05T16:09:43Z ThomasH: Hey prxq 2014-06-05T16:11:30Z ThomasH: Given 2 classes and the class-precedence-list, I want to find the most specific common class of the 2 classes. Am I guaranteed to get the same answer portably? 2014-06-05T16:12:08Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-05T16:13:21Z nilsi_ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T16:13:30Z p_l joined #lisp 2014-06-05T16:14:12Z ThomasH: I'd also appreciate any references that explain methods for comparing the class-precedence-list. 2014-06-05T16:15:37Z stassats`: no. 2014-06-05T16:15:38Z oGMo: what methods do you mean? it's a precedence list, in order of precedence 2014-06-05T16:15:56Z YDJX left #lisp 2014-06-05T16:15:56Z stassats`: (sb-mop:class-precedence-list (find-class 'sb-mop:funcallable-standard-class)) and (sb-mop:class-precedence-list (find-class 'sb-mop:standard-class)) would give # 2014-06-05T16:16:04Z stassats`: that's not portable 2014-06-05T16:16:13Z ThomasH: stassats`: That's what I was afraid of. 2014-06-05T16:16:33Z jasom: speaking of clos; anyone have a suggestions for which I should use to add clos to my lisp implementation? closette or common-loops seem to be the 2 "CLOS in lisp" implementations 2014-06-05T16:16:51Z oGMo: ah you want the same _class list_ portably 2014-06-05T16:16:59Z ThomasH: oGMo: yes 2014-06-05T16:17:01Z oleo: closette is just a demo....so to say.... 2014-06-05T16:17:41Z tesuji quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-05T16:18:23Z oleo: it's just a mop.... 2014-06-05T16:18:26Z ThomasH: The concept is simple, it's the actual implementation that causes the grief. I know what I mean, my computer just doesn't understand me. 2014-06-05T16:19:11Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-05T16:19:40Z oGMo: ThomasH: what are you trying to do? 2014-06-05T16:19:47Z stassats`: you can condition it to ignore classes with names outside of MOP and CL 2014-06-05T16:20:13Z nilsi__ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T16:20:13Z oGMo: i.e., why is it important that the list of classes be the same between implementations, rather than simply reliable within an implementation 2014-06-05T16:20:56Z Shinmera: http://shinmera.tymoon.eu/public/screenshot-2014.06.05-18:19:18.png 2014-06-05T16:20:57Z _8hzp joined #lisp 2014-06-05T16:21:02Z ThomasH: oGMo: yes, that may be sufficient. I could trim the list to the classes that matter and then compare. 2014-06-05T16:21:55Z tinyblak_ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T16:22:29Z ThomasH: oGMo: Basically, I'm trying to do something similar to the floating point contagion rules, but with classes. 2014-06-05T16:23:01Z oGMo: not enough context to make sense 2014-06-05T16:23:11Z jasom: Shinmera: commonqt? 2014-06-05T16:23:24Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-05T16:23:24Z Shinmera: jasom: yes 2014-06-05T16:23:43Z ThomasH: oGMo: So, now in addition to my computer not understanding me, you don't either. There's seems to be a common denominator here. 2014-06-05T16:23:47Z nilsi_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-05T16:23:55Z boogie joined #lisp 2014-06-05T16:24:00Z oGMo: ThomasH: lack of definition perhaps? ;) 2014-06-05T16:24:05Z nilsi_ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T16:24:14Z _8hzp` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-05T16:24:24Z ThomasH: Anyway, I think I understand the task better. 2014-06-05T16:26:52Z Shinmera: Once I got my spline interpolation wroking a bit more nicely I can move on to adding a history and brushes and all that. 2014-06-05T16:27:23Z nilsi__ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-05T16:27:32Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-06-05T16:28:32Z effy_ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T16:29:04Z Xach: Shinmera: very cool 2014-06-05T16:30:25Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-05T16:31:12Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-05T16:31:23Z effy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T16:31:38Z karbak quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T16:32:20Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-05T16:32:22Z ThomasH: With respect to MOP, Closer to MOP is the way to go, right? 2014-06-05T16:32:42Z stassats`: yes 2014-06-05T16:32:57Z jusss quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-05T16:34:44Z billstclair joined #lisp 2014-06-05T16:37:32Z _8hzp left #lisp 2014-06-05T16:39:36Z gigetoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T16:40:02Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2014-06-05T16:40:06Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-06-05T16:40:15Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2014-06-05T16:41:48Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T16:42:06Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-05T16:45:25Z p_l quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-05T16:46:51Z marsam is now known as marsbot 2014-06-05T16:47:09Z karbak joined #lisp 2014-06-05T16:49:35Z cocosp quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Some are even built in to CL pretty printing, but for a string, I would not use such stuff and the code is less to type than my answer. 2014-06-05T17:36:15Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-05T17:37:17Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-06-05T17:37:17Z Fare: drewc: hi 2014-06-05T17:37:49Z drewc: Fare: hey hey! great video from ELS, loved it. 2014-06-05T17:38:23Z p_l quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T17:38:39Z p_l joined #lisp 2014-06-05T17:38:53Z drewc: (it was from ELS yes? I may have my reasons for filming all messed up. but given the location and the accents ... makes sense) 2014-06-05T17:41:25Z ThomasH: closer-mop name conflicts: DEFMETHOD STANDARD-CLASS DEFGENERIC STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION. 2014-06-05T17:41:29Z Fare: thanks 2014-06-05T17:41:35Z ThomasH: Are you not supposed to USE closer-mop? 2014-06-05T17:41:38Z pjb: renard_: there's a way, using the pretty printer features: ~<~>. 2014-06-05T17:41:44Z Fare: I had questions about the parsing library 2014-06-05T17:41:52Z Fare: naming & such 2014-06-05T17:41:56Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2014-06-05T17:42:06Z Kenjin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T17:42:11Z drewc: my parsing library, SMUG? 2014-06-05T17:42:36Z Fare: you mean this? http://bit.ly/1nnQQf4 2014-06-05T17:42:39Z Fare: yes 2014-06-05T17:42:43Z pjb: renard_: but IIRC, this requires to have the words split anyways. com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.string:string-justify-left doesn't use the pretty printer. 2014-06-05T17:42:54Z ThomasH: Can someone point me towards an example of the intended way to use closer-mop? A paper that demonstrates it or a package? 2014-06-05T17:42:55Z Fare: I would rename a whole lot of functions 2014-06-05T17:43:17Z Fare: ThomasH, I make trivial use of it in fare-mop 2014-06-05T17:43:25Z pjb: ThomasH: there's a whole book about it: "The Art of Meta Object Protocol". 2014-06-05T17:43:29Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2014-06-05T17:43:36Z H4ns: ThomasH: you'd not normally :use it. 2014-06-05T17:43:58Z Kenjin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T17:44:03Z ThomasH: pjb: I have the book, that's not the question. H4ns, thanks, thats the feedback I was looking for. 2014-06-05T17:44:03Z oGMo: ThomasH: you want to :use :closer-common-lisp or whatnot 2014-06-05T17:44:17Z oGMo: or :closer-cl, i forget 2014-06-05T17:44:37Z pjb: ThomasH: well, you can use it for a lot of things, so there's not a single intended way to use it. 2014-06-05T17:44:37Z oGMo: (_instead_ of :cl, but it says all this on the closer-mop page) 2014-06-05T17:44:49Z H4ns: ThomasH: https://github.com/slyrus/xml-class/blob/master/xml-class.lisp is an example of a small metaclass 2014-06-05T17:45:21Z ThomasH: Ok, will look at all of the above. 2014-06-05T17:45:28Z drewc: Fare: are you using the most recent version with the LIL and the literate 'use the same names as the paper' implementation? OR: I like renaming, having done so many times over the course of that. 2014-06-05T17:45:46Z drewc: and yes, I did mean that. 2014-06-05T17:45:50Z TheMoonMaster left #lisp 2014-06-05T17:45:54Z pjb: ThomasH: I've got some use of closer-mop in https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/source/master:clext/association.lisp 2014-06-05T17:45:55Z Fare: which is the most recent repo? 2014-06-05T17:45:59Z Sir_herrbatka joined #lisp 2014-06-05T17:46:13Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-05T17:46:33Z therik quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-05T17:46:51Z ThomasH: pjb: Looking, thanks 2014-06-05T17:47:15Z drewc: I might have more actually ... hold I will commit everything... but yes, the most recent. 2014-06-05T17:47:19Z Fare: I was looking at https://github.com/drewc/smug.git 2014-06-05T17:47:48Z Fare: and trying to determine what to use in clojure. 2014-06-05T17:48:42Z drewc: Fare: that is fairly recent yes ... so most of the names come from https://github.com/drewc/smug/blob/master/doc/monparsing.org 2014-06-05T17:48:42Z Fare: (considering parsing py in clj) 2014-06-05T17:48:42Z c3w quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-05T17:49:08Z Fare: what's the relationship between monparsing.org and smug.org ? 2014-06-05T17:49:32Z nvmme joined #lisp 2014-06-05T17:50:51Z drewc: smug.org : 2009. monparsing.org the paper that all modern monadic parsers are based on, with the code translated (and literately tangled) to CL. 1996 - 2014. 2014-06-05T17:51:09Z effy_ is now known as effy 2014-06-05T17:52:03Z ThomasH: So... if you're just using a few functions out of closer-mop, don't USE the closer-mop package. If you're leaning heavily on closer-mop, don't USE common-lisp, USE closer-common-lisp. 2014-06-05T17:52:36Z pjb: Yes. 2014-06-05T17:53:00Z ThomasH: pjb: Great, thanks. 2014-06-05T17:53:13Z Fare: so which is the one I should take as reference? monparsing ? 2014-06-05T17:53:15Z pjb: Using qualified symbols has the advantage of showing off explicitely the dependency. When you only use a few symbols, it's better than using the whole package. 2014-06-05T17:53:23Z drewc: smug.org :: something I wrote to demonstrate and document what I learned from Monadic Parser Combinators. monparsing.org :: took the PDF of "Monadic Parser Combinators", made it a .txt, and .org'd it before adding CL code. 2014-06-05T17:53:38Z pjb: lisppaste says: 504 Gateway Time-out 2014-06-05T17:53:45Z pjb: Computer says No… 2014-06-05T17:53:59Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2014-06-05T17:54:37Z Fare: drewc: I was thinking that =satisfies is misnamed because it only accepts one char. There should be a prefix for accepting chars, another for accepting more general things 2014-06-05T17:54:50Z drewc: it really depends on which version of SMÜG you are using ... but monparsing.org in general 2014-06-05T17:55:09Z Fare: accept would be a general prefix, but it's too long. = or % could mean "accept-" 2014-06-05T17:55:39Z Fare: for a long name, accept-char-satisfying 2014-06-05T17:55:40Z nvmme quit (Quit: nvmme) 2014-06-05T17:55:42Z p_l quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-05T17:55:46Z Fare: for a short name %c-satisfies 2014-06-05T17:55:56Z c3w joined #lisp 2014-06-05T17:56:38Z Fare: =char => %c= 2014-06-05T17:56:59Z Fare: point being: chars shouldn't be special 2014-06-05T17:57:04Z benny quit (Quit: empty quit) 2014-06-05T17:57:07Z drewc: or, use neither ,because that is something only someone who first started would use! 2014-06-05T17:57:27Z drewc: OR: https://github.com/drewc/smug/blob/master/doc/monparsing.org <--- read that. 2014-06-05T17:57:42Z Fare: actually, I was thinking of a macro-expander that works by prepending stuff in the input stream (being a lazy stream of tokens) 2014-06-05T17:57:55Z Fare: s/tokens/source objects/ 2014-06-05T17:57:55Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2014-06-05T17:58:15Z Fare: where each source object knows where in the source it starts and ends 2014-06-05T17:58:38Z drewc: I have that actually. 2014-06-05T17:58:38Z Fare: or worse, has itself a chain of locations it comes from 2014-06-05T17:58:48Z drewc: but no need to chain anything. 2014-06-05T17:59:12Z benny joined #lisp 2014-06-05T17:59:20Z drewc: hold, I will paste my modern use of such things 2014-06-05T17:59:44Z drewc: but, in the monparsing.org there is "(defun satisfies (predicate) ...)" 2014-06-05T18:00:06Z Fare: source location is important for debugging. It also makes indentation-awareness easier... if the correct source location mixin is used 2014-06-05T18:00:21Z drewc: now the predicate takes whatever ITEM returns ... 2014-06-05T18:00:53Z Fare: ok, but it takes only one input 2014-06-05T18:00:53Z drewc: which is related to parsing, not to the location of such things. that is different 2014-06-05T18:03:38Z drewc: Fare: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142791 2014-06-05T18:04:25Z nvmme joined #lisp 2014-06-05T18:05:23Z drewc: Fare: the important thing there is #'.INPUT 2014-06-05T18:06:06Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-05T18:07:05Z Fare: it returns the location of the input? 2014-06-05T18:07:21Z Fare: an empty syntax object with current location? 2014-06-05T18:10:43Z drewc: nope ... returns whatever the INPUT is .. a stream, a string, or whatever you define it as. in this case it is string that is displaced-to the original.... if it was a stream I would take in and take the position . 2014-06-05T18:10:55Z drewc: s/in/it 2014-06-05T18:11:16Z drewc: hold. will commit my WIP 2014-06-05T18:11:22Z cocosp joined #lisp 2014-06-05T18:12:45Z p_l joined #lisp 2014-06-05T18:12:47Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2014-06-05T18:13:01Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2014-06-05T18:13:05Z cocosp quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-05T18:13:15Z Sir_herrbatka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-05T18:14:07Z Sir_herrbatka joined #lisp 2014-06-05T18:16:02Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-05T18:16:30Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-05T18:18:22Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-06-05T18:18:41Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-05T18:18:46Z drewc: Fare: Ok, done. https://github.com/drewc/smug/blob/master/parser.lisp seems fairly modern and may even work. 2014-06-05T18:18:48Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-06-05T18:19:11Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2014-06-05T18:19:11Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-06-05T18:20:10Z drewc: regardless, INPUT is, at this point, also and interface : 2014-06-05T18:20:16Z drewc: s/and/an 2014-06-05T18:21:05Z nvmme quit (Quit: nvmme) 2014-06-05T18:21:51Z drewc: https://github.com/drewc/smug/blob/master/input.lisp. So, what #'INPUT returns is completely up to the author, and is based on the IPS used for 2014-06-05T18:21:53Z KCL_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T18:22:23Z zygentoma quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T18:22:31Z Fare: ok 2014-06-05T18:23:00Z Fare: why has pure-smug.lisp an executable flag? 2014-06-05T18:23:34Z Fare: is there an implementation that won't accept '#.(foo) ? 2014-06-05T18:24:05Z drewc: no idea why tbh. 2014-06-05T18:24:33Z p_l quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T18:24:44Z drewc: there is always a purpose, but as for the reasoning behind it, not a clue. 2014-06-05T18:24:51Z therik joined #lisp 2014-06-05T18:25:47Z askatasuna quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-05T18:25:51Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T18:25:53Z drewc: it has been over 6 months or so since I did things in earnest, so anything that looks like a kludge or a bug likely is. 2014-06-05T18:27:55Z drewc: one of the issues is/was that I wanted to use the same code for pure.lisp as I do elsewhere, and that meant implementing a subset DEFINE-INTERFACE, and that meant a tonne of kludges and bugs. 2014-06-05T18:28:02Z karbak__ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T18:28:06Z jaimef quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-05T18:28:30Z p_l joined #lisp 2014-06-05T18:28:39Z bocaneri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-05T18:29:23Z jaimef joined #lisp 2014-06-05T18:29:30Z amirjamil90 joined #lisp 2014-06-05T18:29:40Z amirjamil90: hi 2014-06-05T18:29:49Z karbak quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-05T18:29:57Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-06-05T18:32:15Z Fare: amirjamil90, hi 2014-06-05T18:32:27Z knob quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-05T18:32:30Z Fare: amir was looking for a beginner project in cl 2014-06-05T18:32:49Z amirjamil90: ya i am here 2014-06-05T18:32:50Z Fare: I was proposing extending lil, but it's not beginner-y enough 2014-06-05T18:32:54Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-05T18:33:24Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-05T18:36:48Z Fare: amirjamil90, are you familiar with clos? 2014-06-05T18:37:38Z Fare: a good beginner project actually might be to write tests 2014-06-05T18:37:49Z Fare: uiop could use a lot of tests 2014-06-05T18:38:05Z Fare: I'm sure other libraries, too 2014-06-05T18:39:45Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T18:40:21Z drewc: tests with DOCUMENTATION thereof would be a bonus for a lot of libraries, and a good beginner project indeed. 2014-06-05T18:41:04Z amirjamil90: ok 2014-06-05T18:41:23Z amirjamil90: i will learn till next week 2014-06-05T18:41:33Z amirjamil90: since i am busy at this weekend 2014-06-05T18:41:39Z pnpuff left #lisp 2014-06-05T18:41:54Z amirjamil90: i would be going for a hackathon this saturday ? 2014-06-05T18:41:56Z amirjamil90: ! 2014-06-05T18:42:28Z karbak__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-05T18:44:58Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-05T18:45:21Z dkcl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-05T18:45:53Z dandersen joined #lisp 2014-06-05T18:45:56Z dandersen quit (Changing host) 2014-06-05T18:45:56Z dandersen joined #lisp 2014-06-05T18:46:28Z dandersen is now known as dkcl 2014-06-05T18:47:17Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-06-05T18:49:52Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T18:49:57Z ehaliewicz joined #lisp 2014-06-05T18:50:48Z dandersen joined #lisp 2014-06-05T18:50:56Z dandersen quit (Changing host) 2014-06-05T18:50:56Z dandersen joined #lisp 2014-06-05T18:51:38Z dandersen is now known as dkcl 2014-06-05T18:51:42Z nicdev: Fare: I will be willing to spare some time on tests and documentations of uiop or extendint lil if there are good pointers. slightly busy during weekdays but i will be able to dedicate some weekends 2014-06-05T18:51:55Z davazp quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-05T18:52:13Z therik: quickdocs is under maintenance :/ 2014-06-05T18:54:17Z arenz joined #lisp 2014-06-05T18:55:29Z dkcl shudders at tests and object orientation 2014-06-05T18:55:57Z Fare: nicdev: sure 2014-06-05T18:56:08Z Fare: amirjamil90, what timezone r u in 2014-06-05T18:56:30Z coyo joined #lisp 2014-06-05T18:56:49Z MjrTom quit (Quit: Planet Earth is blue, and there's nothing I can do) 2014-06-05T18:56:54Z amirjamil90: india 2014-06-05T18:57:30Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-05T18:57:46Z amirjamil90: UTC+05:30 2014-06-05T19:00:05Z c3w quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T19:00:12Z Vivitron quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-05T19:02:02Z karbak joined #lisp 2014-06-05T19:03:01Z amirjamil90: @Fare i surfed for finger trees,it my be written in clisp 2014-06-05T19:04:26Z stassats` joined #lisp 2014-06-05T19:05:43Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-05T19:06:06Z yacks: that is interesting amirjamil90... me to fr India 2014-06-05T19:06:44Z yacks: am in blr, india. and u? 2014-06-05T19:06:58Z MoALTz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-05T19:06:58Z stassats`: do they have a shortage of keyboard keys? 2014-06-05T19:07:02Z nvmme joined #lisp 2014-06-05T19:07:43Z nvmme quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T19:07:50Z amirjamil90: yacks how long you are in lisp 2014-06-05T19:07:51Z amirjamil90: ? 2014-06-05T19:08:03Z amirjamil90: in india its not popular 2014-06-05T19:08:05Z amirjamil90: !! 2014-06-05T19:08:34Z jchochli_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T19:09:09Z yacks: well, nt very much... but am ventured into fp in general. not necessarily lisp. 2014-06-05T19:09:22Z drewc: Fare: oh, and as far as naming goes, I am trying to make everything possible have the same name as CL ... so SMUG:CHAR= etc ... and then I have a package which simply adds a #\. before the symbols it imports, and exports them. I have only played with such a thing, but it seems to be the right way, as I know the names and documentation of such functions. Hence, SMUG/PURE:EVERY 2014-06-05T19:09:27Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2014-06-05T19:09:54Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T19:10:13Z yacks: my interest is FP. so i keep on dangling between lisp,scheme, erlang, haskell... so i am here. 2014-06-05T19:10:31Z amirjamil90: ok man 2014-06-05T19:10:33Z amirjamil90: good 2014-06-05T19:10:37Z amirjamil90: dont dangle 2014-06-05T19:10:47Z amirjamil90: choose one of them and excel 2014-06-05T19:10:51Z yacks: i dont find ppl who're intested in FP and/or lisp as such. 2014-06-05T19:10:54Z Fare: yacks, racket is more fp-ish than cl. but you cab do fp in cl. 2014-06-05T19:10:59Z amirjamil90: lisp is more powreful than haskell 2014-06-05T19:11:08Z Fare: is it? 2014-06-05T19:11:17Z Fare: that's a bold claim. 2014-06-05T19:11:20Z drewc: Fare: the only real issue is forgetting that you're shadowing after adding something, and breaking other things because of it. Hence for anything not core related, I use the SMUG/DOT:.EVERY instead. 2014-06-05T19:11:53Z jasom: metaprograming in lisp is certainly easier than in haskell 2014-06-05T19:12:21Z yacks: yes, i knew... scheme is more fp-ish.. that is fine.. 2014-06-05T19:12:23Z stassats`: programming in lisp is easier too, maybe that's because i don't know haskell 2014-06-05T19:12:43Z drewc: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/code/syntax/haskell/0.html 2014-06-05T19:13:10Z yacks: let me put this way... lisp in general is my interest. :D 2014-06-05T19:14:07Z yacks: thanks for advice.. amirjamil90. 2014-06-05T19:14:44Z amirjamil90: ok 2014-06-05T19:14:48Z amirjamil90: you are wlcome 2014-06-05T19:14:53Z amirjamil90: are you on fb? 2014-06-05T19:15:25Z yacks: :D... nope... 2014-06-05T19:16:22Z yacks: somehow i feel it takes way time. no social-networking in general. sorry abt that... 2014-06-05T19:17:00Z michael_lee quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-05T19:17:06Z coyo: identica and friendica can be worse - they are more engaging than fb, and thus can be timesinks 2014-06-05T19:18:07Z nvmme joined #lisp 2014-06-05T19:19:16Z Xach: Please chat about this sort of thing privately. 2014-06-05T19:19:16Z amirjamil90 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-06-05T19:19:30Z Xach: Feel free to publicly chat about Common Lisp. 2014-06-05T19:20:31Z yacks: i respect ur advice... thanks 2014-06-05T19:20:41Z monod joined #lisp 2014-06-05T19:21:28Z yacks: drewc, thanks for the link. 2014-06-05T19:23:23Z setmeaway quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-05T19:24:14Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-06-05T19:25:27Z araujo joined #lisp 2014-06-05T19:25:27Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2014-06-05T19:25:27Z araujo joined #lisp 2014-06-05T19:28:28Z ikki joined #lisp 2014-06-05T19:31:08Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-05T19:31:48Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-06-05T19:34:00Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-05T19:35:12Z yacks quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-05T19:36:56Z nvmme quit (Quit: nvmme) 2014-06-05T19:38:31Z cocosp joined #lisp 2014-06-05T19:39:24Z nvmme joined #lisp 2014-06-05T19:40:11Z cocosp quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-05T19:41:22Z cocosp joined #lisp 2014-06-05T19:43:03Z cocosp quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-05T19:44:24Z cocosp joined #lisp 2014-06-05T19:44:27Z therik: what's the best way to handle css in weblocks? 2014-06-05T19:45:28Z therik: write them by hand? 2014-06-05T19:45:41Z therik: I'm thinking css generation, not dependency handling 2014-06-05T19:47:00Z mordocai joined #lisp 2014-06-05T19:48:57Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T19:49:44Z interlocutor: you mean like a css generator like SASS lor LESS? 2014-06-05T19:50:15Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T19:50:20Z nvmme quit (Quit: nvmme) 2014-06-05T19:50:22Z jasom: therik: I would write it by hand (or use sass or less or whatever) 2014-06-05T19:50:35Z jasom: therik: there is a lisp tool called "css-lite" but it's not particularly useful imo 2014-06-05T19:51:03Z interlocutor: yeah, i don't really know what you mean tbh 2014-06-05T19:51:06Z mordocai joined #lisp 2014-06-05T19:51:13Z interlocutor: weblocks is a webserver like any other in that regard 2014-06-05T19:51:15Z foreignFunction quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-05T19:51:19Z jasom: I have a bunch of stuff I've used beside it that I'm trying to package up as an improved version, but it's not even close to ready for general use 2014-06-05T19:52:17Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T19:52:46Z joe-w-bimedina: Can someone show me how to fix the memory leak in this function without affecting its precise functionality. I just have to free the foreign-alloc. https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/7b47052b248de47fb39c 2014-06-05T19:52:49Z nvmme joined #lisp 2014-06-05T19:54:03Z mordocai joined #lisp 2014-06-05T19:56:06Z jaimef quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-05T19:58:18Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T19:59:36Z n0n0 joined #lisp 2014-06-05T20:01:01Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-06-05T20:01:48Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-05T20:03:23Z cocosp quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-05T20:03:23Z jaimef joined #lisp 2014-06-05T20:03:50Z nvmme quit (Quit: nvmme) 2014-06-05T20:03:54Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-05T20:04:34Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-05T20:05:02Z n0n0 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-05T20:07:43Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2014-06-05T20:08:28Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-06-05T20:09:16Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-05T20:09:44Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-05T20:10:58Z ThomasH: NREVERSE on the return of CLASS-PRECEDENCE-LIST does bad things. I didn't realize that the return value was the actual list, assumed it was a newly constructed list from some underlying representation. 2014-06-05T20:11:22Z nvmme joined #lisp 2014-06-05T20:11:44Z jdz: ThomasH: did not anybody tell you to never destructively modify anything you have not created yourself? 2014-06-05T20:12:07Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-05T20:12:17Z ThomasH: jdz: No, but I've learned. 2014-06-05T20:13:09Z stassats`: jdz: that's what my mom told me 2014-06-05T20:13:50Z jdz: i wish i listened to what my mom told me 2014-06-05T20:13:54Z sroy_ quit (Quit: Quitte) 2014-06-05T20:16:03Z nvmme quit (Quit: nvmme) 2014-06-05T20:16:50Z JuanDaugherty: mama said to stomp on thru, yes she did! 2014-06-05T20:19:04Z cabaire joined #lisp 2014-06-05T20:20:06Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-06-05T20:20:40Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2014-06-05T20:23:04Z francogrex joined #lisp 2014-06-05T20:23:42Z francogrex: / join #emacs 2014-06-05T20:24:28Z nvmme joined #lisp 2014-06-05T20:24:41Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-05T20:28:02Z sroy joined #lisp 2014-06-05T20:29:58Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-05T20:32:35Z cabaire quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-05T20:32:51Z nug700 joined #lisp 2014-06-05T20:32:56Z francogrex quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T20:33:45Z jaimef quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-05T20:35:53Z jaimef joined #lisp 2014-06-05T20:36:12Z Alfr joined #lisp 2014-06-05T20:38:38Z zickzackv joined #lisp 2014-06-05T20:39:18Z prxq joined #lisp 2014-06-05T20:40:49Z p_l quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-05T20:43:25Z jasom: ThomasH: if the documentation doesn't say something like "Returns a fresh list" then you shouldn't modify it yourself 2014-06-05T20:45:54Z sroy quit (Quit: Quitte) 2014-06-05T20:48:00Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-05T20:48:15Z TheMoonMaster joined #lisp 2014-06-05T20:49:51Z zajn joined #lisp 2014-06-05T20:50:26Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-05T20:54:52Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-05T20:55:39Z joe-w-bimedina: Is the common way to make a matrix in Lisp just to use make-array to create a 2d array 2014-06-05T20:56:11Z pjb: Yes, in general that's how it's done. 2014-06-05T20:56:14Z pnpuff quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-05T20:56:22Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks:) 2014-06-05T20:56:42Z pjb: But then, in applications such as maxima, matrix are a more complex abstract data type, so it's probably hidden behind a class or some other abstraction. 2014-06-05T20:57:13Z joe-w-bimedina: ok, great 2014-06-05T20:57:22Z pjb: For example, if you want to be able to consider submatrices, or combined matrices, or with vectors or columns removed, etc. 2014-06-05T20:58:37Z p_l joined #lisp 2014-06-05T20:59:00Z joe-w-bimedina: yea, just need to make a regular matrix I can aref 2014-06-05T20:59:36Z Bike: especially when you throw in sparsity 2014-06-05T20:59:43Z pjb: That said, make-array signature is rather hairy. You may want to abstract it away, and write a (matrix r c) constructor. 2014-06-05T21:01:33Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm just converting the OpenCV matrices to Lisp for faster operations on them, make-array should fine for wahat I'm doing 2014-06-05T21:02:00Z ahungry_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-05T21:02:03Z pjb: You might want to systematically use a :element-type 'single-float or double-float. 2014-06-05T21:02:35Z pjb: Hence the use of an abstracted (matrix r c) constructor. 2014-06-05T21:03:18Z Bike: plus you might want to change it later without having to go through all your code replacing make-arrays 2014-06-05T21:03:46Z ggole quit 2014-06-05T21:05:32Z joe-w-bimedina: pjb: why systematically use a :element-type 'single-float or double-float? 2014-06-05T21:05:41Z Bike: more efficient 2014-06-05T21:05:43Z pjb: to optimize speed and size. 2014-06-05T21:05:58Z pjb: I guess you don't often get sexps in OpenCV matrices. 2014-06-05T21:06:05Z Bike: can specialize the storage, and specialize operations so you use float multiplication routines rather than integer, or whatever 2014-06-05T21:06:33Z replcated quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T21:06:34Z Kenjin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T21:06:44Z joe-w-bimedina: I will have to coerce them back to numbers that way but coerce is light 2014-06-05T21:06:57Z joe-w-bimedina: to and from 2014-06-05T21:07:05Z ThomasH: Not being able to use FOR-AS variables in FINALLY clauses is annoying. 2014-06-05T21:07:09Z Bike: uh? floats are numbers? 2014-06-05T21:07:09Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2014-06-05T21:07:13Z pjb: no coercion needed, single-float are already numbers: (subtypep 'single-float 'number) --> T 2014-06-05T21:07:23Z p_l quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-05T21:07:39Z joe-w-bimedina: my bad, meant integers/bits 2014-06-05T21:07:50Z Bike: is that a common operation for you? 2014-06-05T21:07:55Z pjb: ThomasH: you can return from another clause. Think of finally as an afterthought. 2014-06-05T21:08:29Z Fare: joe-w-bimedina, https://github.com/melisgl/mgl-mat 2014-06-05T21:08:59Z ThomasH: pjb: in the body of the LOOP? 2014-06-05T21:09:11Z ThomasH: rather, return from the body of the LOOP? 2014-06-05T21:09:42Z pjb: For example. Or from a when or unless clause, since you often stop a loop on a condition. 2014-06-05T21:09:48Z Kenjin_ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T21:09:58Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks for the info 2014-06-05T21:10:04Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-05T21:10:25Z ThomasH: pjb: Ok 2014-06-05T21:10:48Z pjb: of course, if you use matrices of bound integers, you would use that :element-type. 2014-06-05T21:10:56Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: ^ 2014-06-05T21:11:48Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-05T21:13:01Z joe-w-bimedina: I'll just be passing doubles single-floats and integers, so I coerce everything to a float when I put into the matrix, is there faster conversion method 2014-06-05T21:13:39Z stassats`: that's not only slow, but also wrong 2014-06-05T21:13:40Z pjb: Well, if you have matrices of integers, it'd probably be better to keep them as such. 2014-06-05T21:14:15Z Fare: joe-w-bimedina, don't reinvent the wheel — not before you've learned how wheels are made and have an idea of why yours will be better. 2014-06-05T21:14:42Z joe-w-bimedina: thats what I had planned initially, I was asking about pjb's idea, he mentioned convert to float 2014-06-05T21:14:53Z Fare: what's your high-level goal? 2014-06-05T21:15:09Z Fare: I recommend you use gabor melis' code. He's probably clever than you and I are. 2014-06-05T21:15:14Z Fare: together 2014-06-05T21:15:23Z Sir_herrbatka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-05T21:15:24Z Fare: s/clever/more clever/ 2014-06-05T21:15:42Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: no, I just assumed you had already floats. If you have integers, keep integers. 2014-06-05T21:16:09Z joe-w-bimedina: https://github.com/melisgl/mgl-mat <=== is this gabor's code 2014-06-05T21:16:14Z Fare: yes 2014-06-05T21:18:19Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks, I'm probably going to stick with make-array for now and see if it bites me, best way to learn all the ins and out, I'll save the link just in case it does 2014-06-05T21:18:25Z marsbot is now known as marsam 2014-06-05T21:19:09Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-05T21:20:23Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T21:20:26Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T21:20:47Z joe-w-bimedina: hey while I got everybodies attention, can I ask for a little bit of assistance with this memory leak, I posted a few steps back? 2014-06-05T21:22:34Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T21:22:35Z joe-w-bimedina: oh another idea, what about GSLL matrices, Liam Healy is a genius when it comes to programming 2014-06-05T21:22:55Z mishoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T21:23:16Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-05T21:23:21Z Hydan quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-05T21:24:06Z karbak left #lisp 2014-06-05T21:24:33Z drmeister: Apparently unix "fork" doesn't work with the Boehm garbage collector - back to serial runs. 2014-06-05T21:25:10Z drmeister: Back to serial runs of the static analyzer that take 5 freakin' hours (sigh). 2014-06-05T21:26:00Z Fare: drmeister, why? trying to mix fork and threads? 2014-06-05T21:26:13Z Fare: what if you gc just before you fork? 2014-06-05T21:26:14Z drmeister: I don't have multithreading yet. 2014-06-05T21:26:38Z Fare: what else than threads gets in the way of gc? 2014-06-05T21:27:01Z drmeister: I don't understand that last question. 2014-06-05T21:27:35Z Fare: why would boehmgc not like fork, if not for thread support? 2014-06-05T21:27:47Z drmeister: Can you hold that thought? I need to run to catch a train - I'll be back on in a few min. 2014-06-05T21:27:50Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T21:28:11Z Fare: I'm reminded of this gc that worked by forking, doing stop the world gc in fork, then sending list of garbage to free to the mother ship 2014-06-05T21:30:01Z oGMo: :o 2014-06-05T21:30:04Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-05T21:31:18Z Fare: look, ma: concurrent no-pause gc, for "free". 2014-06-05T21:32:12Z oGMo: but only for free(3) because you couldn't move anything with that method ;) 2014-06-05T21:33:08Z patrickwonders quit (Quit: patrickwonders) 2014-06-05T21:36:03Z kanru` joined #lisp 2014-06-05T21:36:22Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-05T21:37:23Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-05T21:37:23Z jasom: boehmgc can use threads starting with 6.0 2014-06-05T21:37:34Z jasom: that is, the collector may be multithreaded 2014-06-05T21:37:48Z patrickwonders joined #lisp 2014-06-05T21:38:35Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-05T21:38:42Z jasom: parallel mark, sequential sweek, IIRC 2014-06-05T21:39:14Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T21:39:33Z sunwukong joined #lisp 2014-06-05T21:41:20Z drmeister: Hmm, it's being a bit inconsistent. When I fork the static analyzer it crashes with "thread_suspend failed". 2014-06-05T21:41:55Z drmeister: When I bring up the repl and use (sys:fork) it forks another process but when I try to do anything in it it crashes with "thread_suspend failed". 2014-06-05T21:42:08Z jchochli_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T21:44:31Z joe-w-bimedina: pjb 2014-06-05T21:45:04Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-05T21:45:05Z jasom: drmeister: that's part of the threading in boehm 2014-06-05T21:45:06Z sunwukong quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T21:45:12Z jasom: darwin_stop_world.c 2014-06-05T21:45:27Z drmeister: Yeah - I just found it. Perhaps I have to inform the GC that I'm forking. 2014-06-05T21:45:39Z jasom: or just turn off thread-safety 2014-06-05T21:45:55Z stassats`: that sounds safe 2014-06-05T21:46:21Z jasom: stassats`: if he's not using threads, then it should be 2014-06-05T21:46:30Z chu joined #lisp 2014-06-05T21:47:26Z drmeister: I'm using the unix "fork()" function. I thought that cloned the process and the parent and child were independent of each other. 2014-06-05T21:47:37Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-05T21:47:49Z jasom: drmeister: it does, but the boehm gc is parallel, which uses threads; fork() doesn't know about threads 2014-06-05T21:48:32Z drmeister: Ah - I see. So forking a process that has multiple threads is bad? 2014-06-05T21:48:54Z foom: Yea, you basically just can't use fork if there's more than one thread running. 2014-06-05T21:48:55Z stassats`: it just doesn't work 2014-06-05T21:49:06Z drmeister: Well, that explains that then. 2014-06-05T21:49:53Z foom: When you're super-careful, you can do fork followed (basically) immediately by execve when there's multiple threads running. 2014-06-05T21:49:59Z foom: But any other use of fork, no 2014-06-05T21:50:11Z jasom: drmeister: try adding --enable-threads=no to your config 2014-06-05T21:50:14Z jasom: (for boehm) 2014-06-05T21:50:27Z jasom: foom: even in that case you should just use spawn 2014-06-05T21:50:33Z foom: jasom: not often feasible. 2014-06-05T21:51:00Z foom: spawn is a subset of what you can actually safely do with fork+safe-calls+exec 2014-06-05T21:51:48Z drmeister: What are the main structural changes that a lisp needs to handle threads? I know that sbcl stores symbol values in thread-local storage and symbols in the global symbol table index into the thread-local symbol value arrays. 2014-06-05T21:51:55Z ThomasH` joined #lisp 2014-06-05T21:52:04Z drmeister: jasom: I'll try the --enable-threads=no later tonight. 2014-06-05T21:52:11Z stassats`: drmeister: TLS, thread safety 2014-06-05T21:52:41Z ikki quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-05T21:52:57Z jasom: drmeister: it's more complicated then just symbol-values in thread-local; it's specifically that dynamic bindings are thread-local 2014-06-05T21:53:44Z jasom: If you do a setf to something that you haven't dynamically bound in the current thread, the change is globally seen 2014-06-05T21:54:31Z ThomasH quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-05T21:55:10Z drmeister: What does thread safety entail? For C++ it means changing how I deal with global variables and static variables (of which I have very few). I can identify every global/static variable access in my code and automatically refactor them to use thread-safe access. 2014-06-05T21:55:35Z stassats`: two threads can call the same functions 2014-06-05T21:56:18Z foom: you need to decide which operations are threadsafe, too. 2014-06-05T21:56:21Z drmeister: jasom: Right - so I need a dynamic binding stack for every thread. I've isolated all of the data structures that I believe will need to be thread-local in one place with an eye on multi-threading - but I haven't implemented multithreading. 2014-06-05T21:56:32Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-06-05T21:56:32Z foom: is setf'ing a global symbol threadsafe? 2014-06-05T21:56:40Z stassats`: should be 2014-06-05T21:56:52Z foom: "should be"? 2014-06-05T21:57:04Z foom: the spec doesn't lay out any of those issues. :) 2014-06-05T21:57:28Z stassats`: if you are serious about your implementation, it should be thread safe 2014-06-05T21:58:18Z foom: And what kind of "thread safety" does it have? 2014-06-05T21:58:21Z jasom: drmeister: you need to decide how to handle when two threads mutate something that is not atomically modifiable in your implementation; if all of those things are already accessed via pointers you're likely okay, as an assignment would be writing a pointer which should be thread safe 2014-06-05T21:58:30Z drmeister: So setq of a global symbol should be seen globally unless the symbol has been dynamically bound within the thread - correct? 2014-06-05T21:58:33Z foom: does it need to become visible to other threads ever? 2014-06-05T21:58:41Z jasom: s/atomically modifiable/atomically writeable/ 2014-06-05T21:59:12Z stassats`: foom: not being in an inconsistent state is the first step 2014-06-05T21:59:37Z jasom: One example would be (setf (gethash ...)) in two threads to the same hash-function; regardless of the result, do you even have a valid hash table anymore? 2014-06-05T21:59:55Z jasom: ditto for extendable arrays 2014-06-05T21:59:57Z stassats`: being visible to other threads is a good idea too, but you would only care on non-x86oids 2014-06-05T22:00:24Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-05T22:00:32Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2014-06-05T22:01:26Z drmeister: Hmm, in the array example - lets say I have an array as the value of a global symbol. How do I write to it in a thread safe way? 2014-06-05T22:01:53Z foom: is vector-push-extend threadsafe? 2014-06-05T22:02:07Z stassats`: nobody uses that, who cares! 2014-06-05T22:02:20Z jasom: I use it I think 2014-06-05T22:02:23Z drmeister: I have to put guards around statements that modify the array - correct? 2014-06-05T22:02:28Z drmeister: I use v-p-e all the time. 2014-06-05T22:02:30Z foom: would be nice if it wasn't super-slow in SBCL. :) 2014-06-05T22:02:46Z jasom: drmeister: you have to but guards around things that modify the size of the array (like v-p-e) 2014-06-05T22:02:58Z interlocutor quit (Quit: Technocracy now!) 2014-06-05T22:03:24Z jasom: If two threads write to two different locations in an array, but don't modify the size (or fill-pointer) of the array, then most sane implementations are already thread-safe 2014-06-05T22:03:30Z stassats`: drmeister: modifying sub-byte arrays would be not atomic 2014-06-05T22:03:48Z drmeister: Hmmm, I'll have to think about this more. 2014-06-05T22:03:57Z jasom: if two threads write to the same location, you should still have a valid array when they are done, and they should have used their own mutual exclusion if they wnted more than that 2014-06-05T22:04:30Z jasom: drmeister: when you enable multi-threading it will be just like when you enabled gc, only there will be more bugs and they'll be harder to reproduce 2014-06-05T22:04:35Z therik: how do I undefine class? 2014-06-05T22:04:44Z stassats`: (setf (find-class class) nil) 2014-06-05T22:04:53Z drmeister: Ok, what about slots in classes/structs? 2014-06-05T22:05:01Z hypno___ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T22:05:22Z stassats`: there's no problem making that atomic either 2014-06-05T22:05:25Z jasom: drmeister: if you aren't packing them it should be fine 2014-06-05T22:05:29Z therik: stassats`: thanks 2014-06-05T22:06:19Z stassats`: it may be non-deterministic and out of order, but a single write should leave things in a consistent state 2014-06-05T22:06:34Z jasom: drmeister: you've got a c++ implementation, right? Just think about the C++ code that is doing the work; is it thread safe? 2014-06-05T22:06:58Z jasom: I think C++ actually defines what operations are, are not, and are implementation defined now 2014-06-05T22:07:05Z jasom: as of c++11 2014-06-05T22:07:07Z stassats`: it's hard to think about memory ordering issues after being use to x86 2014-06-05T22:07:15Z hypno__ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-05T22:07:26Z jasom: stassats`: never ever write for MIPS ISA v1 2014-06-05T22:07:45Z stassats`: i think you mean alpha 2014-06-05T22:08:04Z foom: Reading about the C++11 memory model and memory order options really helped me understand non-x86 hardware better 2014-06-05T22:08:05Z p_l|backup: stassats`: Alpha only fucked around with memory ordering, MIPS afaik did weird things with instructions too 2014-06-05T22:08:31Z jasom: "We were too lazy to add a "sync" operation, so you need to count pipeline stages and prefetch in order to be memory safe; also there's no interrupt-safe way to disable interrupts. Have fun!" 2014-06-05T22:08:32Z stassats`: do commercial lisp have a well defined memory model? 2014-06-05T22:08:41Z p_l|backup: jasom: hahahahaha 2014-06-05T22:08:48Z p_l|backup: jasom: at least Alpha defined those clearly :D 2014-06-05T22:09:05Z stassats`: adding barriers to each operation may be slow, but then people don't really want to mess with memory ordering themselves 2014-06-05T22:09:18Z drmeister: I use the ECL Common Lisp source code - which supports multithreading. My C++ core doesn't do much wrt multithreading other than try to keep what I believe will be thread-local data structures in one place. 2014-06-05T22:09:32Z p_l|backup recalls however that pretty much all instructions included "in case of fault, program counter is not guaranteed to point to correct instruction" 2014-06-05T22:09:58Z drmeister: There are only a few places in the C++ code that mutate memory. 2014-06-05T22:10:27Z stassats`: something like (setf *x* (list a b c)) may end up with another thread seeing a corrupted a list 2014-06-05T22:11:12Z jasom: stassats`: really? Won't it construct the list, then assign a pointer to the head cons to *x*? 2014-06-05T22:11:23Z _schulte_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-05T22:11:28Z foom: jasom: yes, but there's no guarantee that other threads will see those memory operations in the same order you did them 2014-06-05T22:11:40Z foom: jasom: they might get the updated *x* pointer before they see the memory making up the list 2014-06-05T22:11:40Z jasom: foom: right 2014-06-05T22:12:06Z jasom: eieio 2014-06-05T22:12:09Z ikki joined #lisp 2014-06-05T22:12:28Z p_l|backup: jasom: haha 2014-06-05T22:12:29Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-05T22:12:40Z p_l|backup just yesterday read through POWER v2.02 ISA 2014-06-05T22:12:48Z foom: On many archs, even including arm, that generally won't happen, because load-chains force memory ordering automatically. 2014-06-05T22:12:54Z jasom: though I think Power has less performance intrusive operations for handling things like this now 2014-06-05T22:14:05Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-05T22:14:25Z p_l|backup: I think on alpha the only thing you were guaranteed was that plain arithmethic and load stores that were completely untouched by any other device/core etc. would go "right" 2014-06-05T22:15:02Z stassats`: foom: that happened on PPC 2014-06-05T22:15:04Z p_l|backup: so a load then use of a register then store would go fine... unless there was possibility of a 3rd party 2014-06-05T22:15:48Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T22:16:15Z stassats`: SBCL needs a well defined memory model 2014-06-05T22:16:29Z fortitude quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-05T22:17:22Z foom: Er actually, I think for that not to happen, the list would need to use an atomic WRITE, just not an atomic READ. 2014-06-05T22:17:39Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T22:17:56Z foom: (or the proper sync instruction on the writer thread) 2014-06-05T22:18:17Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2014-06-05T22:18:23Z stassats`: allocation on PPC now calls sync 2014-06-05T22:18:39Z foom: Alpha is the only known arch that didn't do *any* dependency tracking on reads. 2014-06-05T22:23:07Z Shinmera quit (Quit: ZzzZ) 2014-06-05T22:29:33Z _schulte_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-05T22:31:25Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-05T22:31:36Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-05T22:32:23Z stassats` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T22:32:27Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-05T22:35:08Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T22:39:03Z lduros quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T22:40:24Z rpg joined #lisp 2014-06-05T22:40:56Z segv- quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-05T22:41:10Z rpg: Hi, Xach -- do you have a moment for a quick buildapp question? 2014-06-05T22:42:39Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-05T22:43:21Z _schulte_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T22:43:26Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 2014-06-05T22:43:38Z abeaumont` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-05T22:44:33Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T22:46:28Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-05T22:51:04Z sheilong joined #lisp 2014-06-05T22:51:29Z Xach: rpg: what's up? 2014-06-05T22:51:33Z Xach is around for a bit 2014-06-05T22:52:09Z rpg: Xach: I was wondering if there's any special recipe for keeping buildapp from loading the user's .sbclrc 2014-06-05T22:52:45Z Xach: It doesn't normally do that. 2014-06-05T22:52:59Z Xach: Well, I don't think it does, but let me check. 2014-06-05T22:53:04Z _schulte_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-05T22:53:12Z abeaumont` joined #lisp 2014-06-05T22:54:12Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T22:54:31Z Xach: rpg: It normally execs the sub-sbcl with --no-userinit and --no-sysinit 2014-06-05T22:55:25Z Xach: rpg: what prompts the question? 2014-06-05T22:55:30Z rpg: Xach: Thanks. My bad. I got an error in my building process, and it showed up as requiring something in my userinit. 2014-06-05T22:55:44Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-05T22:56:03Z rpg: I think I had failed to provide a good --entry argument, so maybe that caused SBCL to fall through to create a REPL or something.... (?) 2014-06-05T22:56:52Z Xach: ah. that could be the case. 2014-06-05T22:57:18Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: mental process lost by paranoid nothing) 2014-06-05T22:57:49Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-05T22:58:15Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-05T22:58:24Z malice quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T22:58:31Z ltbarcly quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-05T22:59:20Z rpg: Xach: I'm really loving this -- I had a file-translation function that I'm pretty instantly turning into a Unix-style filter.... 2014-06-05T23:00:40Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T23:00:41Z Xach: cool 2014-06-05T23:00:47Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-06-05T23:01:37Z _schulte_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-05T23:02:07Z jasom: rpg: you may want ot check out cl-launch as well; it's in the same problem space, but works with non-sbcl lisps and has a few other features that may or may not be useful for you 2014-06-05T23:02:35Z rpg: jasom: I looked at it, but it was more complex, and I already know how to use buildapp... 2014-06-05T23:02:35Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T23:03:43Z Xach: I wrote buildapp because I found cl-launch very difficult to understand. 2014-06-05T23:03:50Z Xach: I think it is better now, but I have less incentive to try. 2014-06-05T23:04:20Z jasom: I like to deliver with ccl sometimes, and cl-launch lets me do that fairly easily 2014-06-05T23:04:43Z jasom: previously I had just been using redo (which is a make replacement) with some fairly basic lisp scripts 2014-06-05T23:04:43Z Xach: buildapp supports ccl now 2014-06-05T23:05:09Z Xach: a nice person sent me a patch for it. 2014-06-05T23:05:10Z Sgeo joined #lisp 2014-06-05T23:06:44Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T23:07:07Z _schulte_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-05T23:07:37Z therik quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T23:07:56Z kanru` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T23:08:21Z nialo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-05T23:09:49Z Fare joined #lisp 2014-06-05T23:09:59Z jonh joined #lisp 2014-06-05T23:09:59Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-05T23:14:30Z jasom: Right; I knew that. 2014-06-05T23:15:52Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T23:16:35Z joe-w-bimedina: Some code I'm evaluating is taking 15 seconds for a million runs in one configuration, and only 1 second in another, with only one small difference. I was wondering if someone could take a peek at it and give any advice as to what the reason might be. Here is the gist, https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/cceec658b43027a5fc22 2014-06-05T23:16:43Z ltbarcly quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-05T23:17:15Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-05T23:17:39Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T23:18:05Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: in one case it knows the type for mem-aref at compile time, and the other it doesnt? 2014-06-05T23:18:05Z ltbarcly_ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T23:18:56Z marsam is now known as marsbot 2014-06-05T23:19:11Z rpg: Xach: Can I pipe input into a program that's built by buildapp? 2014-06-05T23:19:30Z joe-w-bimedina: is there another way to do what I'm trying to do, enter the type at run time 2014-06-05T23:19:41Z joe-w-bimedina: jasom: ^ 2014-06-05T23:20:03Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: you could do a case statement on the type, and then pass the literal to mem-aref still 2014-06-05T23:20:07Z jasom: that *might* be faster 2014-06-05T23:21:21Z ltbarcly quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T23:21:26Z Xach: rpg: I'm not sure. If it's binary data, you might have to do things to make *standard-input* act like you want. 2014-06-05T23:21:52Z rpg: Xach: OK, I'll do some experimenting and get back to you. Thanks again! TTYL. 2014-06-05T23:21:59Z rpg quit (Quit: rpg) 2014-06-05T23:22:07Z p_l joined #lisp 2014-06-05T23:22:17Z joe-w-bimedina: jasom : ok I'll go ahead and try that, thank you 2014-06-05T23:22:38Z _schulte_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-05T23:23:49Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T23:28:16Z nvmme quit (Quit: nvmme) 2014-06-05T23:28:32Z _schulte_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-05T23:29:31Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-05T23:30:55Z zajn quit 2014-06-05T23:31:05Z ltbarcly_ quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-05T23:32:28Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-05T23:34:13Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-05T23:35:39Z Fare joined #lisp 2014-06-05T23:37:38Z innertracks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T23:40:37Z FractalFive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-05T23:43:19Z jrm joined #lisp 2014-06-05T23:45:22Z eudoxia quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-05T23:53:08Z monod quit (Quit: Byebyeee) 2014-06-05T23:54:31Z impulse quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-05T23:54:47Z impulse joined #lisp 2014-06-06T00:00:23Z klltkr quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T00:01:05Z jxv joined #lisp 2014-06-06T00:03:24Z ivan\ quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-06T00:03:59Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-06-06T00:04:01Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2014-06-06T00:04:38Z p_l|backup quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T00:05:01Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-06T00:07:40Z samskulls joined #lisp 2014-06-06T00:10:22Z MjrTom quit (Quit: Planet Earth is blue, and there's nothing I can do) 2014-06-06T00:11:38Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2014-06-06T00:11:39Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-06T00:11:52Z nialo joined #lisp 2014-06-06T00:15:10Z mu5k17u quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T00:15:34Z samskulls: I'm looking for a Vi clone written in Common Lisp. Any recommendations? 2014-06-06T00:16:00Z joe-w-bimedina quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2014-06-06T00:16:25Z Xach: I haven't heard of such a thing. 2014-06-06T00:16:36Z Xach: There are a dozen Emacs variants, though. 2014-06-06T00:17:34Z pjb: samskulls: I've got an ed clone written in CL. You could use it to write a vi clone. 2014-06-06T00:17:53Z samskulls: pjb: sounds good. Is it on github? 2014-06-06T00:18:04Z pjb: No, on gitorious.org, it's not a commercial product. 2014-06-06T00:18:36Z karswell joined #lisp 2014-06-06T00:19:00Z pjb: This ed clone would need some love; the regexp stuff is not finished but you could use cl-ppcre, and that's about all you'd need to have it completed. 2014-06-06T00:19:34Z samskulls: pjb: that's alright; I'm just mucking around. Can you give me a link? 2014-06-06T00:20:05Z pjb: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp.ed) (com.informatimago.common-lisp.ed.ed:ed) 2014-06-06T00:20:17Z pjb: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.ed.ed:ed "file.lisp") too. 2014-06-06T00:20:35Z pjb: https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago 2014-06-06T00:21:39Z jrm: I'm trying to package StumpWM. When I try to compile make-image.lisp (https://github.com/stumpwm/stumpwm/blob/master/make-image.lisp.in) I see http://pastie.org/9262506. What do I need to find CL-PPCRE? It's installed: http://pastie.org/9262561. 2014-06-06T00:22:02Z pjb: (ql:quickload :cl-ppcre) 2014-06-06T00:22:14Z Bike: stump does something stupid with asdf dependencies 2014-06-06T00:22:24Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-06T00:22:28Z pjb: From a script like this, you'd need to load ~/quickload/setup.lisp first. 2014-06-06T00:22:47Z samskulls: pjb: aye, it's loading, but it hit an error. 2014-06-06T00:23:00Z samskulls: COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.CESARUM.PACKAGE tried to redefine load-package, it seems 2014-06-06T00:23:47Z jrm: pjb, Yes, qucklisp is much easier and that's how I install things myself, but it's not an option here. 2014-06-06T00:23:59Z pjb: samskulls: Do you have a bug report? I see only one definition for load-package. 2014-06-06T00:24:13Z owl-v- joined #lisp 2014-06-06T00:24:28Z Fare joined #lisp 2014-06-06T00:24:28Z pjb: jrm: you can do the quickload first, and the configure asdf to look into the same directories as quicklisp for make-image.lisp 2014-06-06T00:24:35Z samskulls: pjb: you want a pastebin of the error + backtrace? 2014-06-06T00:24:54Z pjb: samskulls: yes, please. http://paste.lisp.org/new 2014-06-06T00:24:55Z jrm: Bike, can you elaborate? Do you have any solutions? 2014-06-06T00:25:37Z oleo is now known as Guest66915 2014-06-06T00:26:15Z Bike: i haven't used stumpwm in a while, so i forget the details, but i think that make-image.lisp.in is only a precursor and you get a make-image.lisp out of make, and that sets up asdf's search to only look for a bundled ppcre, or suclike 2014-06-06T00:26:23Z Bike: suchlike* 2014-06-06T00:26:47Z pjb: You can also copy the stumpwm directory from quicklisp to the place where stumpwm expects it. 2014-06-06T00:27:04Z Bike: if you're not doing that in your load, i'd just try (asdf:load-system :cl-ppcre) first, and if that doesn't work, well 2014-06-06T00:27:13Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2014-06-06T00:27:31Z jrm: pjb: These are automated scripts that can't rely on quicklisp. 2014-06-06T00:27:33Z pjb: You'd do that in that script. 2014-06-06T00:27:49Z pjb: jrm: they _could_, it's just a matter of how you write them. 2014-06-06T00:28:02Z jrm: Bike: I'll give the (asdf:load-system :cl-ppcre) a shot. 2014-06-06T00:28:03Z samskulls: pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/+326K 2014-06-06T00:28:06Z pjb: You have to understand what they expect, and fulfill their expectations, or change them. 2014-06-06T00:29:05Z Guest66915 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-06T00:29:26Z zz_karupa is now known as karupa 2014-06-06T00:29:50Z pjb: samskulls: it looks like a very big bug in sbcl. 2014-06-06T00:30:06Z samskulls: oh my 2014-06-06T00:30:37Z Bike: defun load-package is a bug? 2014-06-06T00:30:39Z Kenjin_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T00:30:39Z pjb: CL shouldn't have any symbol named "LOAD-PACKAGE" exported. 2014-06-06T00:30:53Z samskulls: I'll check my RC; I do weird things in there. 2014-06-06T00:31:02Z pjb: In a conforming implementation, the list of symbols exported by the CL package is strictly defined. 2014-06-06T00:31:10Z Bike: sbcl has no load-package here. 2014-06-06T00:31:16Z Bike: you must have one hell of an rc, samskulls 2014-06-06T00:31:17Z samskulls: ...Sure enough, I exported load-package. Sorry for the confusion. 2014-06-06T00:31:36Z pjb: And as a user, you should not touch the CL package… 2014-06-06T00:31:57Z samskulls: Evidently not! :) 2014-06-06T00:32:53Z sjl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T00:32:56Z aeth joined #lisp 2014-06-06T00:33:27Z Bike: so, what, you have (export "LOAD-PACKAGE" "CL") somewhere? 2014-06-06T00:33:57Z aeth: Is there a Lisp library for reading diffs and patching files? All I can find is this and it says "an interface for applying patches is planned for future versions". http://www.cliki.net/diff 2014-06-06T00:33:59Z samskulls: I had a wrapper for ql:quickload that also did in-package. Just a poor choice of name. 2014-06-06T00:34:16Z jxv quit (Quit: QUIT) 2014-06-06T00:34:38Z pjb: There's a CL-USER package for a reason. 2014-06-06T00:35:26Z aeth: Hmm, it looks like it has apply-patch now... https://github.com/froydnj/diff/blob/master/patch.lisp 2014-06-06T00:35:27Z ThomasH`: aeth: https://github.com/froydnj/diff 2014-06-06T00:35:42Z aeth: Out of date wiki is out of date. 2014-06-06T00:36:12Z ThomasH`: aeth: I haven't seen anything done on it. That could mean that it works as is for the author. Clone it and see. 2014-06-06T00:37:17Z ThomasH` is now known as ThomasH 2014-06-06T00:38:21Z Fare: aeth: uiop:run-program `("patch" ...) 2014-06-06T00:38:42Z Fare: aeth: out of date wiki is there for you to update 2014-06-06T00:39:37Z aeth: Fare: is it editable from emacs? 2014-06-06T00:39:38Z chu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T00:39:41Z Fare: Bike: with asdf 3.1, you can (asdf:make :cl-ppcre), that's a few characters saved 2014-06-06T00:40:14Z Fare: aeth: there are various chrome and firefox extensions to do just that, and/or you can use M-x w3m from emacs 2014-06-06T00:40:15Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-06T00:47:19Z bitaco joined #lisp 2014-06-06T00:47:26Z sauerkrause joined #lisp 2014-06-06T00:47:49Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-06-06T00:48:06Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-06T00:49:05Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2014-06-06T00:49:10Z jrm: Fare: I'm told you might have some insight with this http://pastie.org/9262506. I'm stuck with cl-asdf-2.017,2. I do have cl-ppcre installed: http://pastie.org/9262561. 2014-06-06T00:49:28Z jrm: quicklisp isn't an option 2014-06-06T00:49:54Z MoALTz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T00:49:54Z ltbarcly quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-06T00:50:01Z nvmme joined #lisp 2014-06-06T00:50:18Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-06T00:54:59Z slyrus: use a newer SBCL? 2014-06-06T00:55:23Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-06T00:55:23Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T00:55:25Z slyrus: but that's probably not the solution 2014-06-06T00:56:26Z slyrus: do you have a link to cl-ppcre.asd in /usr/local/lib/sbcl/site-systems/ ? 2014-06-06T00:56:45Z Fare joined #lisp 2014-06-06T00:57:05Z Fare: jrm: still there? 2014-06-06T00:57:58Z jrm: Still here.. sorry I was reading ASDF docs. 2014-06-06T00:58:06Z Fare: 1- upgrade to asdf 3.1.2 2014-06-06T00:58:16Z klltkr joined #lisp 2014-06-06T00:58:19Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-06-06T00:58:22Z Fare: asdf 2.017.2 is antique (from September 2011) and not supported anymore 2014-06-06T00:58:38Z Fare: 2- where is cl-ppcre installed? did you configure asdf to find it? 2014-06-06T00:59:03Z jrm: Fare, I would love to. It's the latest ASDF port. I'll try a patch to upgrade it. 2014-06-06T00:59:16Z Fare: latest on a mac? 2014-06-06T00:59:25Z Fare: in macports or something? 2014-06-06T00:59:45Z jrm: 2- It is installed: http://pastie.org/9262561. No I didn't configure anything. 2014-06-06T00:59:53Z jrm: Fare: FreeBSD ports. 2014-06-06T01:00:13Z karupa quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-06-06T01:00:15Z slyrus: the vendor-supplied ASDF (SBCL) is usually the way to go... 2014-06-06T01:01:02Z Fare: usr/local/lib is not a default location for asdf 2014-06-06T01:01:09Z jrm: These are the only asdf options I have at the moment: http://www.freshports.org/search.php?query=asdf&search=go&num=10&stype=name&method=match&deleted=excludedeleted&start=1&casesensitivity=caseinsensitive 2014-06-06T01:01:16Z Fare: the default location would be /usr/local/share/common-lisp/source/ 2014-06-06T01:01:51Z zz_karupa joined #lisp 2014-06-06T01:02:22Z Fare: maybe you should update your port to do that, and/or to include (:tree "/usr/local/lib/common-lisp/") in /etc/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/50-usr-local.conf 2014-06-06T01:02:27Z zz_karupa is now known as karupa 2014-06-06T01:03:00Z Fare: who's responsible for that FreeBSD port? He obviously never read the asdf docs. 2014-06-06T01:03:01Z jrm: Hmm... there is a /usr/local/share/common-lisp/. 2014-06-06T01:03:15Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-06-06T01:03:19Z jrm: olgeni@FreeBSD.org 2014-06-06T01:03:35Z jrm: It looks like he created the ports quite awhile ago. 2014-06-06T01:03:48Z Fare: if he created it before 2010, he's forgiven. 2014-06-06T01:04:12Z joshe: why do ports people always mess up asdf so badly? 2014-06-06T01:04:24Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T01:04:59Z jrm: Fare: If I wanted to try and fix things, this is my best source? http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html 2014-06-06T01:05:04Z Fare: if that's from before May 2010, then ASDF 2 hadn't been released to standardize those locations (after debian) 2014-06-06T01:05:18Z Fare: jrm: yes, the documentation is up to date for asdf 3.1.2 2014-06-06T01:05:48Z Fare: note though that sbcl hasn't upgraded past asdf 3.0.2 from over 10 months ago 2014-06-06T01:06:12Z nvmme quit (Quit: nvmme) 2014-06-06T01:06:19Z Fare: and no one in the sbcl team seems to be interested in upgrading asdf. 2014-06-06T01:06:28Z Fare: nudge them if you think they should 2014-06-06T01:07:00Z kcj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-06T01:07:03Z jrm: Fare: It looks like he's not forgiven: http://svnweb.freebsd.org/ports/head/devel/cl-asdf/Makefile?view=log 2014-06-06T01:07:18Z jrm: See revision 279844 2014-06-06T01:07:37Z Fare: I suppose they go burned enough when I modified the sbcl contribs to not use asdf at runtime anymore and broke some of the build chain, and are not eager to see what else I broke this time (hopefully nothing) 2014-06-06T01:09:50Z Fare: anyway. There are many correct ways to fix it 2014-06-06T01:10:22Z Fare: I recommend adopting the same conventions as debian, that are also preconfigured in asdf2 and asdf3. 2014-06-06T01:10:30Z Fare: that's if you want to fix the port 2014-06-06T01:10:39Z Fare: if you want to use the port as is, edit your configuration 2014-06-06T01:13:37Z TDog quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 28.0/20140314220517]) 2014-06-06T01:13:46Z jrm: Fare: Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. I'd like to fix things, but I have lots of reading to do. 2014-06-06T01:14:12Z jrm: ..reading the asdf docs and common lisp docs as well 2014-06-06T01:16:11Z Fare: not using MIT Scheme anymore? 2014-06-06T01:16:31Z Fare: jrm: you might enjoy my "Why CL is Now an Acceptable Scripting Language" 2014-06-06T01:16:33Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-06T01:17:31Z Natch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T01:18:09Z Fare: https://github.com/fare/asdf3-2013/blob/master/scripting-slides.rkt 2014-06-06T01:18:26Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-06-06T01:18:45Z SHODAN quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T01:19:00Z Fare: http://medias.ircam.fr/x8fb915 2014-06-06T01:19:43Z quazimodo quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-06T01:19:54Z Natch joined #lisp 2014-06-06T01:20:02Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-06-06T01:20:10Z hypno___ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-06T01:20:22Z SHODAN joined #lisp 2014-06-06T01:20:39Z hypno__ joined #lisp 2014-06-06T01:22:38Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T01:23:33Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-06T01:25:42Z nvmme joined #lisp 2014-06-06T01:26:16Z iAran joined #lisp 2014-06-06T01:28:33Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-06T01:29:09Z harish joined #lisp 2014-06-06T01:29:58Z Fare joined #lisp 2014-06-06T01:31:21Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-06T01:31:47Z boogie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T01:32:43Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-06T01:32:51Z Fare: my laptop overheated or something => reboot. Sigh. 2014-06-06T01:34:23Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2014-06-06T01:34:46Z rpg joined #lisp 2014-06-06T01:36:28Z echo-area joined #lisp 2014-06-06T01:37:25Z pjb: Fare: A runaway process using all the CPU? A fried ventilator? A cat on the laptop? 2014-06-06T01:37:58Z Fare: maybe 2014-06-06T01:38:20Z Fare: laptop sitting on the sofa, probably has cat hair in the ventilator 2014-06-06T01:38:32Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-06T01:39:58Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-06T01:41:12Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2014-06-06T01:41:36Z pjb: You need to ensure heat circulation around the laptop, so either some air gap (I use a rolled towel as support to do that) or have a metalic surface to put the laptop on, to evacuate heat. Sofas don't do that well. 2014-06-06T01:42:13Z Fare: pjb: yup, I figured 2014-06-06T01:44:53Z interlocutor joined #lisp 2014-06-06T01:45:31Z Kenjin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-06T01:46:47Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-06-06T01:49:03Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T01:49:26Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-06T01:49:30Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-06-06T01:51:19Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-06T01:55:38Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T01:55:54Z kcj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T01:58:16Z echo-area joined #lisp 2014-06-06T02:01:42Z davazp joined #lisp 2014-06-06T02:03:29Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-06T02:05:30Z MjrTom quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-06T02:05:30Z MjrTom`-` joined #lisp 2014-06-06T02:05:38Z MjrTom`-` is now known as MjrTom 2014-06-06T02:05:51Z bitaco quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-06T02:06:48Z varjag_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 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timed out) 2014-06-06T05:58:54Z H4ns: Xach: did you ever find something in slime that expands * to the expression that yielded it? 2014-06-06T05:59:15Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-06T05:59:19Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-06-06T06:00:00Z ufd joined #lisp 2014-06-06T06:01:04Z boogie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T06:01:31Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-06T06:02:35Z drmeister quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2014-06-06T06:02:44Z H4ns: someone else may actually have thoughts about this, too: i often have the desire to expand * into the original expression, and it would be nice to have some slime key that does that. does it maybe already exist? 2014-06-06T06:02:47Z _schulte_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-06T06:05:41Z ck_: you don't mean +, do you? 2014-06-06T06:06:11Z H4ns: no, i what to yank the text of the expression into the current repl line 2014-06-06T06:06:45Z gendl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T06:06:45Z H4ns: often, i build expressions from the inside out, but i can't easily yank in the repl history. or can i? 2014-06-06T06:06:53Z kpreid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T06:06:56Z ck_: I recall you asking for this a little while ago, somebody suggested moving up to a previous prompt and pressing enter 2014-06-06T06:07:02Z ck_: you answered "that's the spirit!" 2014-06-06T06:07:09Z H4ns: hm. 2014-06-06T06:07:16Z gendl joined #lisp 2014-06-06T06:07:20Z H4ns: let me see if i can reproduce that answer :) 2014-06-06T06:07:42Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-06T06:07:52Z kpreid joined #lisp 2014-06-06T06:07:56Z H4ns: not really. 2014-06-06T06:08:43Z H4ns: i think i backed off too early at the time. the issue with that approach is that i need to move the cursor, so i cannot control where the old input is yanked. also, my typing flow is broken. 2014-06-06T06:09:06Z H4ns: what i really want is a way to make M-p/M-n work when i've already entered something. 2014-06-06T06:09:14Z ck_: I understand, but thought you'd have bound that to a key 2014-06-06T06:09:43Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-06T06:09:43Z c74d is now known as Guest10845 2014-06-06T06:09:43Z Guest10845 quit (Killed (sendak.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2014-06-06T06:10:07Z ck_: I know next to nothing about the slime code base, but always wanted to pick it up 2014-06-06T06:10:20Z H4ns: heh. okay, thanks :) 2014-06-06T06:10:38Z ck_: let's say I carve out some hours this weekend to find out about it, would you join me? 2014-06-06T06:11:16Z H4ns: unless it'd be very early in the morning, i won't make it on the weekend because of family affairs. 2014-06-06T06:11:32Z H4ns: i can do a lunch break :) 2014-06-06T06:11:34Z ck_: I have trouble sleeping since january and wake up at 0400 regularly 2014-06-06T06:11:40Z ck_: right, how about sunday? 2014-06-06T06:11:43Z c74d joined #lisp 2014-06-06T06:11:47Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-06T06:11:53Z H4ns: sunday morning? 2014-06-06T06:12:01Z ck_: or at lunchtime, your choice 2014-06-06T06:12:09Z ck_: just message me until saturday evening and I'll be there 2014-06-06T06:12:21Z H4ns: i'll be here on sunday morning. 2014-06-06T06:12:28Z ck_: done deal then. 2014-06-06T06:13:02Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T06:13:38Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-06-06T06:17:13Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-06T06:18:22Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-06T06:18:45Z prxq joined #lisp 2014-06-06T06:18:49Z jasom: H4ns: I use M-p for that 2014-06-06T06:19:06Z dbushenko joined #lisp 2014-06-06T06:19:18Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-06T06:19:47Z ufd quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-06T06:19:48Z H4ns: jasom: that does not work if you've already typed a partial expression 2014-06-06T06:20:41Z H4ns: jasom: i'm thinking that what i want is update M-p so that it uses point as the start of the expression to search. 2014-06-06T06:21:31Z H4ns: i.e. i type (foo C-SPC (ba M-p to yank in the first item in the history matching "^(ba" 2014-06-06T06:21:57Z H4ns: whereas currently, M-p would search for "^(foo (ba" and not match anything. 2014-06-06T06:22:06Z Kenjin joined #lisp 2014-06-06T06:22:11Z ggole joined #lisp 2014-06-06T06:22:16Z H4ns: i'm not sure if that'd make sense to anyone but me. 2014-06-06T06:22:21Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-06-06T06:22:24Z MoALTz_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-06T06:23:03Z p_l joined #lisp 2014-06-06T06:23:35Z ck_: I often work incrementally and from the inside out, like you describe. But I don't know about that kind of search pattern and would probably just want to cycle through previous inputs without searching 2014-06-06T06:24:14Z H4ns: ck_: C-SPC M-p would give you that 2014-06-06T06:24:25Z ck_: I did not know that 2014-06-06T06:24:47Z H4ns: ck_: you could not, because M-p does not work like it :) 2014-06-06T06:24:53Z Sir_herrbatka: pjb: yes, this function is terrible 2014-06-06T06:25:05Z Sir_herrbatka: and closure is bizzare 2014-06-06T06:25:05Z ck_: H4ns: aha, 'could' 2014-06-06T06:25:11Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-06T06:25:21Z ck_: yes, I didn't mean it as much of a distinction 2014-06-06T06:25:28Z dbushenko quit (Quit: Ухожу я от вас (xchat 2.4.5 или старше)) 2014-06-06T06:25:39Z Sir_herrbatka: pillton: i had no idea what i were doing back then 2014-06-06T06:25:41Z H4ns: ck_: i'm lost. would my proposal work for you? 2014-06-06T06:25:54Z ck_: from my limited experience, elisp code is a hairy ball of many regexps and finding the latest toplevel wouldn't make it any easier or harder to write 2014-06-06T06:26:01Z ck_: H4ns: yes, it would, I think 2014-06-06T06:26:27Z _schulte_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-06T06:26:32Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-06-06T06:26:33Z H4ns: ck_: ok, let me see if i can have a cut at this. it seems like a fairly small change to make. 2014-06-06T06:26:59Z Sir_herrbatka: pjb: but in fact… 2014-06-06T06:27:08Z Sir_herrbatka: there are worse function in my code ;-) 2014-06-06T06:27:44Z ck_: I'd like to stab at it as well, just to get to know slime a little better. But right now my full compile is done and I have to get back to the parentheses that put bread on my table 2014-06-06T06:28:03Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T06:28:03Z ck_: see you around 2014-06-06T06:29:04Z pillton: Sir_herrbatka: What did I do? 2014-06-06T06:29:13Z Sir_herrbatka: pillton: no, nothing 2014-06-06T06:29:15Z Sir_herrbatka: sorry 2014-06-06T06:29:15Z H4ns: ck_: see you! 2014-06-06T06:29:23Z Sir_herrbatka: just a tab-fali 2014-06-06T06:29:33Z Sir_herrbatka: H4ns: good morning! 2014-06-06T06:30:04Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T06:32:17Z michael_lee joined #lisp 2014-06-06T06:33:57Z p_l quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-06T06:35:25Z Harag quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-06-06T06:36:51Z ivan\ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-06T06:37:15Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-06-06T06:37:28Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2014-06-06T06:37:37Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-06-06T06:37:47Z gniourf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T06:37:55Z xificurC joined #lisp 2014-06-06T06:38:20Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-06T06:39:13Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2014-06-06T06:40:06Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-06T06:41:03Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-06T06:45:26Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-06T06:48:15Z nug700_ joined #lisp 2014-06-06T06:48:47Z varjag joined #lisp 2014-06-06T06:48:58Z nug700 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T06:50:23Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2014-06-06T06:52:01Z p_l joined #lisp 2014-06-06T06:52:27Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-06T06:54:05Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-06T06:54:15Z mathrick_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-06T06:54:30Z ufd joined #lisp 2014-06-06T06:54:46Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-06T06:56:28Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2014-06-06T06:56:36Z nug700_ quit (Quit: bye) 2014-06-06T06:56:52Z p_l quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-06T06:58:22Z p_l joined #lisp 2014-06-06T06:58:24Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-06T06:59:16Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2014-06-06T07:03:07Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-06T07:03:07Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-06T07:03:57Z p_l quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-06T07:04:39Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-06T07:04:59Z p_l joined #lisp 2014-06-06T07:11:06Z interlocutor quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T07:11:09Z arenz joined #lisp 2014-06-06T07:11:23Z Oddity quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T07:12:03Z interlocutor joined #lisp 2014-06-06T07:12:45Z axion: with dispatching methods, is there a way to specialize on a string argument using a custom predicate function? 2014-06-06T07:12:54Z nicdev quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T07:13:18Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T07:13:20Z H4ns: axion: not with the standard method combinations provided by cl 2014-06-06T07:13:23Z nicdev` joined #lisp 2014-06-06T07:13:32Z axion: any projects/code related to this task? 2014-06-06T07:13:44Z H4ns: axion: if i want to do this, i convert the string to a symbol 2014-06-06T07:14:01Z H4ns: axion: christophe rhodes has published some works regarding advanced specializers 2014-06-06T07:14:12Z axion: great, thanks 2014-06-06T07:14:58Z H4ns: "custom specializers in object-oriented lisp" by newton/rhodes, but i don't remember how applicable it is to cl 2014-06-06T07:15:12Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-06T07:15:39Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-06T07:15:51Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-06T07:16:55Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-06T07:18:53Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-06-06T07:23:07Z mathrick joined #lisp 2014-06-06T07:23:09Z mathrick_ joined #lisp 2014-06-06T07:25:54Z p_l quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T07:26:09Z p_l joined #lisp 2014-06-06T07:29:05Z nha joined #lisp 2014-06-06T07:29:44Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-06T07:32:57Z bmbernie joined #lisp 2014-06-06T07:33:20Z bmbernie left #lisp 2014-06-06T07:33:24Z p_l quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-06T07:36:47Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-06T07:39:28Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2014-06-06T07:39:42Z zickzackv joined #lisp 2014-06-06T07:40:26Z nha quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-06T07:40:47Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-06T07:42:30Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-06T07:45:13Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-06T07:45:42Z p_l joined #lisp 2014-06-06T07:49:59Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-06T07:52:08Z interlocutor quit (Quit: Technocracy now!) 2014-06-06T07:52:55Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-06-06T07:53:08Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-06T07:53:45Z nha joined #lisp 2014-06-06T07:55:44Z p_l quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T07:57:40Z p_l joined #lisp 2014-06-06T07:58:44Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-06T07:59:47Z nha quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-06T08:00:48Z michael_lee quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2014-06-06T08:00:51Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-06T08:01:35Z Krystof: H4ns, axion: it is very applicable to common lisp 2014-06-06T08:01:53Z gniourf joined #lisp 2014-06-06T08:02:15Z Krystof: axion: if you're interested in trying things out, I can show you some code. Can you describe what you want to do? 2014-06-06T08:02:37Z Krystof: (back in ~1hr) 2014-06-06T08:05:01Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-06T08:06:04Z gniourf quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-06T08:07:33Z gniourf joined #lisp 2014-06-06T08:10:06Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T08:10:11Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2014-06-06T08:10:38Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-06-06T08:14:00Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-06T08:16:23Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-06T08:16:24Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-06-06T08:16:24Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-06T08:17:19Z axion: Krystof: i just have an :around method that calls the more specialized version depending on the string format of a particular argument 2014-06-06T08:17:39Z axion: or would like to have....instead i pass an extra symbol in and specialize on that 2014-06-06T08:18:56Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-06T08:19:46Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-06T08:19:46Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-06T08:19:56Z segmond quit (Quit: Fail) 2014-06-06T08:24:10Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-06T08:25:14Z axion: be back in 30 or so 2014-06-06T08:25:18Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T08:25:26Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-06T08:30:59Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-06-06T08:33:34Z Okasu joined #lisp 2014-06-06T08:39:22Z owl-v- quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-06T08:40:07Z therik joined #lisp 2014-06-06T08:42:47Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T08:44:32Z therik: quickdocs still under maintenance? 2014-06-06T08:46:30Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-06-06T08:47:36Z c4h joined #lisp 2014-06-06T08:48:28Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2014-06-06T08:49:07Z Sir_herrbatka: pjb: you there? 2014-06-06T08:53:10Z pjb: Yes. 2014-06-06T08:54:28Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-06T08:54:58Z pjb: axion: will be back in 30 years! Let' 2014-06-06T08:55:17Z pjb: s prepare the welcome back party. 2014-06-06T08:56:00Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-06T08:57:00Z axion: heh 2014-06-06T08:57:33Z pjb: Already here? We didn't expect you so soon :-) 2014-06-06T08:58:53Z Sir_herrbatka: pjb: thanks for that function 2014-06-06T08:58:57Z Sir_herrbatka: i really like it 2014-06-06T08:59:04Z shridhar joined #lisp 2014-06-06T08:59:16Z setmeaway joined #lisp 2014-06-06T08:59:40Z pjb: Sir_herrbatka: ok. 2014-06-06T08:59:48Z Sir_herrbatka: pjb: but that was nothing 2014-06-06T08:59:57Z Sir_herrbatka: i have something really, really bad 2014-06-06T09:00:41Z Sir_herrbatka: that is it works 2014-06-06T09:00:51Z Sir_herrbatka: but it looks horrible 2014-06-06T09:02:04Z pjb: It would be nice if you could recall me of what function we're talking about. If you have some horrible code, you should certainly rewrite it. 2014-06-06T09:02:29Z Sir_herrbatka: pjb: it is for learning 2014-06-06T09:02:42Z Sir_herrbatka: but i feel uneasy with it 2014-06-06T09:03:00Z pjb: You may use: http://paste.lisp.org/new 2014-06-06T09:03:33Z Sir_herrbatka: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142801 2014-06-06T09:03:47Z Krystof: axion: ok, but what kind of string format are we talking about? Are we really talking about effectively string=/string-case dispatch, or something more dynamic 2014-06-06T09:04:04Z Sir_herrbatka: pjb: i have no idea if using closure this way is a sane idea 2014-06-06T09:04:08Z Krystof: if it's really string=, then doing EQL dispatch on symbols is moderately idiomatic 2014-06-06T09:05:07Z pjb: Sir_herrbatka: the first thing is that it's missing a specification. We cannot say anything about a function without a specification. You should put it in the docstring (to document the "what" and "why" of the function). 2014-06-06T09:05:26Z Sir_herrbatka: pjb: good idea 2014-06-06T09:05:54Z stassats` joined #lisp 2014-06-06T09:06:17Z Sir_herrbatka: basicly, it implements queen algorithm for logic function minimalisation 2014-06-06T09:07:20Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-06T09:08:45Z pjb: member is kind of a predicate. You can consider its result to be boolean, unless you want to use it. 2014-06-06T09:09:24Z pjb: digit-char-p is like that too, returning a useful result when true, despite its name indicating explicitely that it's a predicate. 2014-06-06T09:09:47Z Sir_herrbatka: hmmm 2014-06-06T09:09:52Z pjb: So you can write (and … (member …) (member …)) instead of (and … (not (null (member …))) (not (null (member …)))). 2014-06-06T09:10:21Z Sir_herrbatka: i see 2014-06-06T09:11:00Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-06T09:11:52Z pjb: Your dolist is strange: you're saving the last diff value. Are you sure that's what you want to do? (Depends on the algorithm, it may be normal). 2014-06-06T09:11:58Z malice joined #lisp 2014-06-06T09:12:11Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-06T09:12:26Z Sir_herrbatka: pjb: yes 2014-06-06T09:12:55Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T09:13:18Z axion: Krystof: basically 2 possibilities: containing a '@' or not 2014-06-06T09:13:32Z pjb: If the lists are big (notably list1), you should better write an iterative compare-lists instead of a recursive one. 2014-06-06T09:14:33Z Sir_herrbatka: pjb: in fact if the lists are big, this algorithm is very, very, very inefficent despite implementation 2014-06-06T09:14:37Z pjb: The copy-seq is not needed in (copy-seq (compare-list …)) since compare-list returns a fresh list. 2014-06-06T09:14:39Z Sir_herrbatka: so i didn't bothered 2014-06-06T09:14:44Z pjb: ok. 2014-06-06T09:15:09Z Sir_herrbatka: oooh, ok 2014-06-06T09:15:21Z Sir_herrbatka: i'm a bit paranoid about lists 2014-06-06T09:15:41Z pjb: Avoid mutation, and then you won't need to copy them. 2014-06-06T09:15:46Z Sir_herrbatka: and it was the very first thing i wrote in the lisp 2014-06-06T09:16:50Z pjb: Otherwise it's ok. "Algorithmic" functions often are not as nice as higher level functions. 2014-06-06T09:17:38Z pjb: A good exercice would be to take TAOCP, and implement the algorithms in Lisp. Schizophreny ensue. 2014-06-06T09:18:08Z Sir_herrbatka: pjb: so pushing in the labels to the function argument is not a taboo? 2014-06-06T09:18:30Z Ayey_ joined #lisp 2014-06-06T09:19:05Z Sir_herrbatka: pjb: i think i will do just that 2014-06-06T09:19:17Z Sir_herrbatka: i need more practice in lisp 2014-06-06T09:19:45Z zwer quit 2014-06-06T09:20:02Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-06T09:20:56Z Ayey_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-06T09:20:57Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-06T09:21:46Z pjb: Sir_herrbatka: nope. But you may want to avoid &key and &optional in internal functions, since those lead to slower parameter processing than merely mandatory parameters. 2014-06-06T09:21:53Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-06T09:22:23Z pjb: I would also bind (first list1) to a temp variable to avoid calling first (length list2) times. 2014-06-06T09:22:38Z Krystof: axion: hm, some work required. But interesting test case. 2014-06-06T09:22:46Z Sir_herrbatka: pitty, since i really like &key 2014-06-06T09:22:58Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-06-06T09:23:23Z Ayey_ joined #lisp 2014-06-06T09:23:47Z Sir_herrbatka: does first take significant ammount of time? 2014-06-06T09:24:29Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-06T09:24:36Z Sir_herrbatka: i thought that getting first cons is very fast, and n is ×n slower 2014-06-06T09:24:44Z ltbarcly quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-06T09:24:49Z Sir_herrbatka: this is the list after all 2014-06-06T09:25:08Z stassats`: not getting it is faster 2014-06-06T09:25:39Z pjb: Sir_herrbatka: a smart compiler might notice that list1 doesn't change so it could do this optimization itself, but not all compilers are that smart. 2014-06-06T09:25:49Z Sir_herrbatka: i see 2014-06-06T09:26:14Z Sir_herrbatka: pjb: thanks for taking your time to help me, have a nice day 2014-06-06T09:26:26Z pjb: And in presence of threads, it may make a difference. 2014-06-06T09:26:35Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-06T09:27:17Z pjb: (first list1) may be different each time, if another thread modifies it. If you copy it in a variable at the start, you ensure that your algorithm works with less interference from the other threads. 2014-06-06T09:27:22Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-06T09:27:42Z Sir_herrbatka: pjb: ok, that's interesting 2014-06-06T09:29:10Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-06T09:33:25Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-06T09:35:20Z aftershave joined #lisp 2014-06-06T09:36:18Z zenyfish left #lisp 2014-06-06T09:38:03Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-06T09:40:48Z ramus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-06T09:44:39Z Krystof: axion: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142802 2014-06-06T09:46:15Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-06T09:48:22Z stassats` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T09:49:24Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-06T09:52:22Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-06T09:55:43Z c4h quit (Quit: quit) 2014-06-06T09:56:57Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T09:58:13Z ngz joined #lisp 2014-06-06T09:59:09Z przl 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I'll tell stassats when he/she/it next speaks. 2014-06-06T12:28:08Z huza quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-06T12:30:27Z Xach: hlavaty: the impression that i get from that page is that you need to get something different from the official iolib to use it on windows. is that still the case? 2014-06-06T12:30:27Z JuniorRoy joined #lisp 2014-06-06T12:32:47Z hlavaty: Xach: yes, it has not been merged 2014-06-06T12:33:27Z hlavaty: but the code exists, and that was what stassats was after if i understood that well 2014-06-06T12:33:47Z Xach: Ok. 2014-06-06T12:34:44Z dandersen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T12:35:39Z JuniorRoy1 joined #lisp 2014-06-06T12:36:21Z JuniorRoy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-06T12:37:37Z dandersen joined #lisp 2014-06-06T12:38:03Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-06-06T12:39:25Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T12:39:40Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2014-06-06T12:39:43Z varjag quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-06T12:44:29Z dbushenko 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create mine most of the time. i extend it by hand after that. 2014-06-06T13:21:15Z therik: Xach: I thought there might be some syncing thing, if I for example want to include all files in ./src/ 2014-06-06T13:22:08Z therik: I got mine generated by asdf, it's some default weblocks app, but now files are growing quick 2014-06-06T13:22:22Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2014-06-06T13:22:23Z therik: maybe I shouldn't put every class in separate file 2014-06-06T13:22:26Z oleo__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T13:22:28Z Guest18547 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-06T13:23:02Z Xach: therik: I think that could have a problem with ordering. 2014-06-06T13:23:15Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-06-06T13:23:20Z Xach: unless the relationship between files was somehow manifest in the name. 2014-06-06T13:23:38Z therik: aha good point 2014-06-06T13:26:08Z eudoxia quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-06T13:26:50Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-06T13:26:56Z Xach: therik: i do have a bit of elisp that writes an .asd file and just includes every file, and then i manually reorder. 2014-06-06T13:27:06Z Xach: i don't use it much any more, it predates quickproject. 2014-06-06T13:29:20Z drewc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T13:30:08Z stassats: i usually have no files when creating an .asd 2014-06-06T13:30:08Z minion: stassats, memo from hlavaty: iolib does work to large extent even on win32 and win64 http://src.knowledgetools.de/tomas/winapi/index.html and the resolver worked iirc 2014-06-06T13:30:10Z stassats: or just one file 2014-06-06T13:30:25Z drewc joined #lisp 2014-06-06T13:31:57Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T13:33:07Z abeaumont` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-06T13:34:41Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-06T13:36:49Z abeaumont` joined #lisp 2014-06-06T13:37:42Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-06T13:38:35Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-06T13:40:38Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 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2014-06-06T15:15:41Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-06-06T15:16:22Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-06T15:17:33Z jxv joined #lisp 2014-06-06T15:18:41Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-06T15:18:52Z jebes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T15:19:09Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-06T15:19:49Z YDJX left #lisp 2014-06-06T15:19:58Z shlomo quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-06T15:20:09Z fridge left #lisp 2014-06-06T15:20:19Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-06T15:20:37Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-06T15:21:43Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-06T15:21:44Z drmeister: Wanna see an inventory of all of the allocated objects in my Common Lisp system right after it boots up the full system? https://gist.github.com/drmeister/ed54f954008adb2f2d2b 2014-06-06T15:22:55Z drmeister: These are all of the objects that are managed by the garbage collector. I'm trying to figure out why my stupid static analyzer is using 30 GB of memory so I added an inventory of all reachable objects. 2014-06-06T15:23:04Z jxv quit (Quit: QUIT) 2014-06-06T15:23:48Z drmeister: Now I'm loading the static analyzer, running it on one C++ source file and then run the inventory again. 2014-06-06T15:25:17Z jsnell: btw, you might want to export that function as CL:ROOM 2014-06-06T15:26:08Z stassats: but only for (room t) 2014-06-06T15:26:11Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T15:26:45Z drmeister: Good point - there's a function for everything in CL. 2014-06-06T15:28:11Z drmeister: All of the objects contain a header that isn't optimized for size - this is the Boehm version of the code, for bootstrapping and debugging - it won't be the release version. 2014-06-06T15:28:13Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-06-06T15:28:33Z harish joined #lisp 2014-06-06T15:28:48Z c3w joined #lisp 2014-06-06T15:29:06Z drmeister: That's why a CONS requires 32 bytes 2014-06-06T15:31:35Z gingerale joined #lisp 2014-06-06T15:34:08Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T15:34:08Z wgreenhouse quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T15:34:09Z Adlai quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2014-06-06T15:35:12Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-06T15:35:16Z Adlai joined #lisp 2014-06-06T15:35:21Z wgreenhouse joined #lisp 2014-06-06T15:35:28Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-06T15:35:53Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-06T15:39:27Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-06T15:39:29Z therik joined #lisp 2014-06-06T15:40:33Z patrickwonders quit (Quit: patrickwonders) 2014-06-06T15:41:55Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T15:42:46Z Okasu quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-06T15:42:59Z marsbot is now known as marsam 2014-06-06T15:43:36Z lemonodor joined #lisp 2014-06-06T15:46:13Z yrk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T15:46:49Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-06T15:47:10Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-06-06T15:47:56Z drmeister: I can see already that I want to determine changes in memory usage before and after an operation. I'll stick all of this in a hash table and write code to calculate deltas. 2014-06-06T15:49:58Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-06-06T15:50:17Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2014-06-06T15:50:17Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-06-06T15:50:25Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-06T15:53:12Z mordocai joined #lisp 2014-06-06T15:55:36Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-06T15:56:03Z sauerkrause left #lisp 2014-06-06T15:57:18Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T15:57:40Z patrickwonders joined #lisp 2014-06-06T15:59:27Z marsam is now known as marsbot 2014-06-06T15:59:44Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-06-06T16:02:13Z therik quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T16:07:41Z patrickwonders quit (Quit: patrickwonders) 2014-06-06T16:08:32Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-06T16:09:36Z j0ni_ is now known as j0ni 2014-06-06T16:13:49Z beach joined #lisp 2014-06-06T16:14:03Z beach: Good evening everyone! 2014-06-06T16:14:09Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-06T16:14:09Z JuanDaugherty quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-06T16:14:40Z nipra quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-06T16:14:56Z whimse1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T16:15:18Z oleo: hello beach :) 2014-06-06T16:18:41Z jcp joined #lisp 2014-06-06T16:18:47Z jcp is now known as Guest55373 2014-06-06T16:19:25Z Kruppe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T16:20:25Z beach: drmeister: Working hard I see. How is your system coming? 2014-06-06T16:20:29Z Guest55373 quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-06T16:21:27Z tinyblak quit 2014-06-06T16:24:31Z wgreenhouse quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T16:25:20Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T16:25:35Z mega1` is now known as mega` 2014-06-06T16:27:01Z wgreenhouse joined #lisp 2014-06-06T16:27:47Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-06T16:27:51Z sjl joined #lisp 2014-06-06T16:28:37Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-06T16:28:51Z Vutral quit (Changing host) 2014-06-06T16:28:51Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-06T16:30:32Z beaumont`a quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-06T16:30:56Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T16:31:02Z drewc: good morning beach! 2014-06-06T16:31:03Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-06T16:31:53Z Kruppe joined #lisp 2014-06-06T16:32:41Z Oddity joined #lisp 2014-06-06T16:33:55Z Xach: drewc: smug started building for me in sbcl! what's new? 2014-06-06T16:33:59Z beaumont`a joined #lisp 2014-06-06T16:34:32Z boogie joined #lisp 2014-06-06T16:34:39Z kushal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T16:35:05Z hlavaty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T16:35:37Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-06-06T16:35:57Z drewc: Xach: which version of SMUG, which 'version' under that version, and yay! New-wise, not a lot. Landed a new contract about 7 weeks ago, 90% CL work, and it means I will have enough loot to hit Mount Royal this August! 2014-06-06T16:36:01Z beach: I frequently see people here saying the equivalent of "there is no Lisp community", but the definitions I know of "community" certainly apply to at least a subset of the people coming here. And I don't see the purpose of such a statement. 2014-06-06T16:36:11Z hitecnologys_ joined #lisp 2014-06-06T16:36:55Z stassats: have you tried to get two lisp persons to agree on something? 2014-06-06T16:37:25Z beach: Yes, though that is not part of the definitions of "community" I have checked. 2014-06-06T16:37:37Z l_a_m quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-06T16:37:44Z stassats: see, can't even agree on what a community s 2014-06-06T16:37:55Z drewc: Have you tried to get two communists to agree on something? (I see 'community' and think 'commune') 2014-06-06T16:38:00Z beach: Perhaps it is just an expression of the self-flagellation that so characterizes the members of the community. 2014-06-06T16:38:32Z hitecnologys quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-06T16:39:21Z Xach: drewc: github.com/drewc/smug.git master 2014-06-06T16:40:09Z MouldyOldBones joined #lisp 2014-06-06T16:40:51Z jsnell: I always understood it as there not being a single lisp community, not as there being none 2014-06-06T16:40:59Z jsnell: so basically a way of distancing oneself from cll 2014-06-06T16:42:25Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T16:44:00Z beach: jsnell: Sure, it's a healthy sign that people don't blindly follow the words of a single person or a small group of people. But that is also not part of the definitions of "community" that I have found. 2014-06-06T16:44:03Z drewc: Xach: ahh ... the WIP i commit'd yesterday! Good news that it works, as I have not even LOAD'd it in a few months. As for what CL-wise is 'new', https://github.com/drewc/yasexml 2014-06-06T16:44:48Z lemonodor quit (Quit: lemonodor) 2014-06-06T16:44:59Z beach: jsnell: Anyway, not that important. I just can't figure out what the point of repeating such a statement would be. Other than self-flagellation, that is. 2014-06-06T16:46:01Z drewc: (loop (say "there is no Lisp community")) 2014-06-06T16:46:37Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-06-06T16:46:58Z drewc: Xach: or did you mean 'what's new with SMUG'? because heh ... compared to 2009, a lot! 2014-06-06T16:51:41Z boogie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T16:52:17Z boogie joined #lisp 2014-06-06T16:54:11Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2014-06-06T16:54:50Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-06T16:58:09Z jasom: beach: maybe "There is no *one* Lisp community" but then that becomes true for nearly every programming language. 2014-06-06T16:59:29Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-06T17:00:22Z drmeister: beach: My static analyzer is consuming about 30 GB and analyzes all 165 C++ source files before it may or may not segfault - probably because it is using too much memory. 2014-06-06T17:00:43Z lemonodor joined #lisp 2014-06-06T17:01:33Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-06T17:01:34Z Amaan joined #lisp 2014-06-06T17:01:44Z Vutral quit (Changing host) 2014-06-06T17:01:44Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-06T17:02:37Z nvmme joined #lisp 2014-06-06T17:03:06Z stassats: drmeister: why does it have to process them all at once? 2014-06-06T17:03:18Z FractalFive joined #lisp 2014-06-06T17:05:22Z hitecnologys_ quit (Quit: hitecnologys_) 2014-06-06T17:06:13Z KCL_ joined #lisp 2014-06-06T17:06:44Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-06T17:07:47Z mhd joined #lisp 2014-06-06T17:08:10Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-06-06T17:08:28Z drmeister: stassats: There is an enormous amount of duplication when you process the C++ files because of all the transitive includes. For every class in every C++ file the static analyzer generates a CL representation of the class and puts it in a HASH-TABLE #'EQUAL based on a key string constructed from the classes name. 2014-06-06T17:08:55Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T17:09:12Z drmeister: For instance - std::string class will be declared in every C++ file along with about 50,000 other C++ classes. 2014-06-06T17:09:18Z pnpuff left #lisp 2014-06-06T17:09:57Z drmeister: So if I do them all in one go then it only accumulates new C++ classes and I'll get the minimal set. 2014-06-06T17:10:28Z drmeister: If I did it in 165 separate runs then I'll get 165 sets with huge amounts of overlap. 2014-06-06T17:10:49Z drmeister: I can break it up into separate batches - previously I was doing 4 batches and then I serialize the results of each and reload and merge them. 2014-06-06T17:11:07Z stassats: why not process one file, write the result in another file, start new process processing the second file and loading the previous result file? 2014-06-06T17:11:35Z stassats: i mean, it doesn't look like your "do everything at once" strategy is working 2014-06-06T17:11:56Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-06T17:13:27Z drmeister: So I could break it up over some small number of batches - but now I have to run them serially because Boehm doesn't like fork() (I haven't tried disabling threads in Boehm). 2014-06-06T17:14:36Z drmeister: stassats: I'm slowly coming to the realization that the do everything at once strategy isn't working. But the problem might be my program not releasing some memory and thus fixable if I can figure out what it is. Using 30GB of virtual memory is ridiculous. 2014-06-06T17:15:21Z drmeister: Note though: 3 weeks ago I was running with reference counting and everything was fine. Then I made the static analyzer do a bit more processing with each AST node and memory consumption became a serious problem. 2014-06-06T17:15:26Z nvmme quit (Quit: nvmme) 2014-06-06T17:15:47Z drmeister: 2 weeks ago I incorporated the Boehm garbage collector - that improved things considerably but it's still using a lot of memory and occasionally crashes. 2014-06-06T17:16:13Z drmeister: It takes 5 hours to run the damn thing and so I haven't had too many cycles of test/fail/fix to go on. 2014-06-06T17:17:39Z lemonodor quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-06T17:18:35Z drmeister: I've just added a feature where I can set a global "marker" value that gets written into the header of every object as it is allocated. Now I can set the marker to 1 - run something - and then get a reachable object report that only includes the stuff marked with 1. 2014-06-06T17:19:17Z dbushenko quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T17:19:32Z Hydan_ joined #lisp 2014-06-06T17:19:46Z drmeister: I'm started running the static analyzer on the same single file repeatedly and I can see that memory is accumulating every time. That shouldn't be happening - something is being retained that shouldn't be. 2014-06-06T17:20:53Z drmeister: I'm not sure if that's my overarching memory leak problem but I'm working on identifying its cause in case it is. 2014-06-06T17:21:56Z nyef: drmeister: And is the memory leak in your heap, or on the clang/ast side? 2014-06-06T17:22:18Z Hydan quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-06T17:22:20Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-06T17:22:41Z drmeister: nyef: I'm not sure of that either - but I can use the OS X "heap" command to see all of the clang/llvm/ast objects because they are allocated on the regular heap with "new". 2014-06-06T17:23:38Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-06T17:24:00Z shridhar quit (Quit: shridhar) 2014-06-06T17:24:33Z drmeister: Running the static analyzer for the first time on one source file consumes 42MB of memory. https://gist.github.com/drmeister/dc5158124b976c2d75ba 2014-06-06T17:25:37Z drmeister: It's running for a second time now - I'll be back in an hour - I need to go for a swim and the pool closes soon. 2014-06-06T17:26:35Z lemonodor joined #lisp 2014-06-06T17:27:51Z lemonodor left #lisp 2014-06-06T17:29:10Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-06-06T17:32:18Z normanrichards joined #lisp 2014-06-06T17:32:18Z normanrichards quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T17:34:30Z pnpuff quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T17:35:36Z Wukix quit (Quit: bye) 2014-06-06T17:37:40Z beach left #lisp 2014-06-06T17:37:45Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-06T17:38:08Z ykm joined #lisp 2014-06-06T17:38:44Z lemonodor joined #lisp 2014-06-06T17:39:52Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-06T17:42:32Z Kenjin quit 2014-06-06T17:47:00Z bocaneri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T17:50:00Z nicdev quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T17:51:06Z ykm quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-06T17:56:40Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-06-06T18:00:19Z pjb: minion: memo for beach: I think it's a defense mechanism: the Lisp community feels attacked or aggressed at times, and saying there's no Lisp community let the attacks pass us with no hassle. 2014-06-06T18:00:19Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks. 2014-06-06T18:02:50Z Eyes quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T18:06:01Z rszeno joined #lisp 2014-06-06T18:07:14Z Eyes joined #lisp 2014-06-06T18:08:18Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-06T18:11:06Z dlowe: let's call it a lisp society 2014-06-06T18:11:13Z dlowe: which is just a collection of interacting people 2014-06-06T18:11:59Z dlowe: that way we won't have to feel bad when we're not feeling especially communal 2014-06-06T18:13:20Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T18:15:39Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-06T18:18:24Z lemonodor left #lisp 2014-06-06T18:21:56Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T18:22:14Z gigetoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T18:24:15Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2014-06-06T18:24:59Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2014-06-06T18:25:14Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2014-06-06T18:26:59Z Fare joined #lisp 2014-06-06T18:27:18Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T18:28:25Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2014-06-06T18:29:49Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-06T18:30:02Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2014-06-06T18:33:08Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-06-06T18:33:45Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2014-06-06T18:33:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-06T18:33:46Z attila_lendvai1 quit (Changing host) 2014-06-06T18:33:46Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2014-06-06T18:35:30Z nicdev joined #lisp 2014-06-06T18:40:39Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-06T18:41:58Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T18:44:38Z AT_void joined #lisp 2014-06-06T18:44:51Z AT_void: good evening/day :) 2014-06-06T18:51:02Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-06T18:52:55Z attila_lendvai1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T18:57:56Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T18:58:22Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-06T18:59:00Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-06T18:59:06Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-06T18:59:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-06-06T18:59:06Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-06T19:00:37Z AT_void: fyi: the link in the chan title does not work anymore - article not found :/ 2014-06-06T19:02:31Z _death: which link? the two I see seem to work fine 2014-06-06T19:03:28Z stassats: the one with > 2014-06-06T19:05:51Z foreignFunction joined #lisp 2014-06-06T19:06:01Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2014-06-06T19:07:27Z AT_void: oh - i have not managed to copy the link correctly, sry 2014-06-06T19:08:28Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-06T19:12:21Z hugod quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T19:13:46Z hugod joined #lisp 2014-06-06T19:22:15Z _schulte_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-06T19:23:58Z mr-foobar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T19:25:06Z Jesin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T19:25:44Z nipra quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T19:27:09Z jxv joined #lisp 2014-06-06T19:30:51Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-06T19:33:07Z oconnore is now known as oconnore_ 2014-06-06T19:38:56Z pnpuff quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T19:41:09Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-06T19:41:59Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2014-06-06T19:44:43Z vlnx_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-06T19:45:23Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-06-06T19:46:15Z vlnx joined #lisp 2014-06-06T19:48:47Z Vivitron joined #lisp 2014-06-06T19:50:19Z ehaliewicz joined #lisp 2014-06-06T19:51:32Z zickzackv joined #lisp 2014-06-06T19:52:00Z zwer quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-06T19:53:54Z urandom_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-06T19:54:56Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T19:55:06Z marsbot is now known as marsam 2014-06-06T19:55:53Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-06-06T19:55:56Z interlocutor quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T19:59:02Z Intensity quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2014-06-06T19:59:06Z urandom__ quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2014-06-06T20:01:21Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T20:01:22Z oconnore_ is now known as oconnore 2014-06-06T20:01:34Z cmbntr quit (Ping timeout: 454 seconds) 2014-06-06T20:01:41Z cmbntr joined #lisp 2014-06-06T20:03:27Z Intensity joined #lisp 2014-06-06T20:05:30Z sroy quit (Quit: Quitte) 2014-06-06T20:05:31Z wgreenhouse is now known as wsithhouse 2014-06-06T20:05:54Z wsithhouse is now known as wgreenhouse 2014-06-06T20:06:56Z Bike_ joined #lisp 2014-06-06T20:07:36Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-06T20:09:30Z Bike_ is now known as Bicyclidine 2014-06-06T20:11:42Z drmeister: I'm running the following script to measure whether memory usage grows when I run the static analyzer on the same file 10 times in a row. https://gist.github.com/drmeister/cdce5c0aeaa26069c393 2014-06-06T20:12:05Z TristamWrk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T20:13:35Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-06T20:15:24Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-06-06T20:15:35Z Bicyclidine: lisp code sure looks weird highlighted as c. 2014-06-06T20:16:19Z TristamWrk joined #lisp 2014-06-06T20:16:28Z Bicyclidine: should you hardcode the pid like that? 2014-06-06T20:18:44Z TristamWrk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T20:19:47Z wgreenhouse quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T20:20:23Z wgreenhouse joined #lisp 2014-06-06T20:21:26Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2014-06-06T20:22:04Z dbushenko joined #lisp 2014-06-06T20:23:22Z AT_void left #lisp 2014-06-06T20:24:34Z nydel_ joined #lisp 2014-06-06T20:24:41Z njsg__ joined #lisp 2014-06-06T20:24:43Z GuilOooo_ joined #lisp 2014-06-06T20:24:49Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T20:24:57Z flip214_ joined #lisp 2014-06-06T20:25:34Z theos quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-06T20:26:09Z jlongster quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-06T20:26:32Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-06-06T20:26:32Z theos joined #lisp 2014-06-06T20:26:38Z flip214 quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2014-06-06T20:26:38Z GuilOooo quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2014-06-06T20:26:38Z Lebbe quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2014-06-06T20:26:38Z nydel quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2014-06-06T20:26:38Z njsg quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2014-06-06T20:26:38Z mishoo quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2014-06-06T20:26:51Z Lebbe joined #lisp 2014-06-06T20:27:16Z sweetpotato joined #lisp 2014-06-06T20:34:56Z cbrowne joined #lisp 2014-06-06T20:37:40Z penultimo joined #lisp 2014-06-06T20:42:51Z Shinmera: http://shinmera.tymoon.eu/public/screenshot-2014.06.06-22:42:37.png 2014-06-06T20:43:18Z attila_lendvai quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-06T20:43:18Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2014-06-06T20:43:18Z attila_lendvai1 quit (Changing host) 2014-06-06T20:43:18Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2014-06-06T20:43:27Z stassats: i see that argv0dummy changed to "parasol" 2014-06-06T20:43:35Z Shinmera: Indeed. 2014-06-06T20:45:05Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-06-06T20:45:07Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-06T20:45:40Z TristamWrk joined #lisp 2014-06-06T20:45:54Z Shinmera: I'm really liking developing Qt with Lisp. Being able to redefine methods during a running application will never stop being amazing. 2014-06-06T20:46:05Z gendl: Hi, does anyone know how to get characters like ® out of cl-pdf? 2014-06-06T20:46:06Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2014-06-06T20:46:25Z axion: Krystof: you around? 2014-06-06T20:46:33Z stassats: gendl: need to use a font which supports it 2014-06-06T20:46:34Z gendl: If I simply embed the literal ® in a utf-8 file and compile and generate, I get ^A® in the output. 2014-06-06T20:46:44Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-06-06T20:47:09Z gendl: stassats: does that mean the font I’m using does not support it? Even though a ® shows up in some form in the output 2014-06-06T20:47:24Z stassats: it also means that cl-pdf sucks 2014-06-06T20:47:35Z stassats: and i hate it, together with cl-typesettings 2014-06-06T20:47:57Z setmeaway quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-06T20:48:26Z gendl: stassats: I think it’s the best we have to work with though 2014-06-06T20:48:39Z gendl: sucks compared to what? 2014-06-06T20:48:49Z stassats: to something which would not suck 2014-06-06T20:48:59Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-06T20:49:09Z gendl: sucks compared to what which actually exists 2014-06-06T20:49:33Z stassats: you don't need to compare 2014-06-06T20:49:46Z drmeister: Bicyclidine: I hardcode the pid because I didn't have time to expose a function to provide the pid - I had to run to a meeting. 2014-06-06T20:49:49Z slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 2014-06-06T20:50:04Z Bicyclidine: tragic 2014-06-06T20:50:10Z gendl: I just fixed it by hand-editing the PDf output 2014-06-06T20:50:28Z gendl: replaced \302\256 with \256 2014-06-06T20:50:33Z gendl: that got rid of the ^A 2014-06-06T20:51:34Z gendl: now if I could figure out how to embed \256 directly in the source, I guess that would be an answer 2014-06-06T20:51:53Z RenJuan joined #lisp 2014-06-06T20:52:40Z drmeister: Does anyone know in emacs how to do the following: I select a range; I go M-x | grep "TOTAL memory" ; --> Since there are only 8 results it goes into the minibuffer window rather than the shell buffer and I can't copy it out because it disappears if I hit any key or use the mouse to select. 2014-06-06T20:53:29Z jasom: Does it go to *Messages* Maybe? 2014-06-06T20:55:12Z drmeister: jasom: Good call - it does go into *Messages*! Thanks 2014-06-06T20:56:00Z knob quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-06T20:58:13Z nydel_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T20:58:13Z penultimo left #lisp 2014-06-06T20:58:28Z RenJuan quit (Quit: Exit IRC/Hibernate) 2014-06-06T20:58:28Z nydel joined #lisp 2014-06-06T20:58:48Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-06-06T20:59:28Z replcated quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T20:59:44Z pnpuff quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T21:00:43Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: experience lost by memory explosion) 2014-06-06T21:01:39Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-06T21:02:21Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-06T21:03:42Z drmeister: So I'm running the static analyzer on the same C++ source file 10 times - the total reachable memory stays constant. The total memory that the "heap" program says is "non-object" memory - which I believe is the total Boehm heap is going up and up and up. This means memory fragmentation - correct? 2014-06-06T21:04:01Z marsam is now known as marsbot 2014-06-06T21:04:06Z drmeister: What's a good place to post pictures? 2014-06-06T21:04:10Z drmeister: imgur? 2014-06-06T21:04:16Z oleo: imgur and picpaste.... 2014-06-06T21:04:18Z Bicyclidine: seems fine to me 2014-06-06T21:04:28Z oleo: but the naming and searching is not good in both... 2014-06-06T21:04:44Z oleo: you can't really find your pics via names etc... 2014-06-06T21:04:58Z oleo: neither search them...even when you know parts of it..... 2014-06-06T21:05:07Z oleo: parts of its name i mean.... 2014-06-06T21:05:15Z Bicyclidine: use a full stop for once in your life 2014-06-06T21:05:22Z oleo: . 2014-06-06T21:05:30Z oleo: lol 2014-06-06T21:05:45Z axion: haha 2014-06-06T21:07:44Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-06T21:08:04Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-06-06T21:08:12Z cbrowne quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-06T21:09:02Z drmeister: Here's what the "heap" program tells me is the "non-object" (non "new" allocated) memory of my application after each run of the static analyzer. http://imgur.com/aBp1B9n 2014-06-06T21:09:28Z Rptx joined #lisp 2014-06-06T21:09:49Z Bicyclidine: In byteS? 2014-06-06T21:10:02Z stassats: in meters 2014-06-06T21:10:12Z Bicyclidine: well, i guess it doesn't matter, it seems like a pretty clear leak 2014-06-06T21:11:01Z nyef quit (Quit: G'night all.) 2014-06-06T21:11:54Z drmeister: And here's the reachable memory calculated by walking every reachable object within the Boehm space from within my program: http://imgur.com/ExMsyY8 2014-06-06T21:12:39Z drmeister: This is not a garbage collector - it's a garbage hoarder. 2014-06-06T21:13:08Z drmeister: Those numbers are in bytes. 2014-06-06T21:13:37Z Bicyclidine: half a gig is too much for it to be from boehm's imprecision... i hope, anyway 2014-06-06T21:13:44Z drmeister: Let me double check a few things. 2014-06-06T21:14:23Z drmeister: Also, I count objects that are retained due to ambiguous pointers as reachable. 2014-06-06T21:14:59Z drmeister: I'm guessing that what "heap" reports as "non-object" is the total Boehm memory. 2014-06-06T21:15:07Z kobain quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2014-06-06T21:15:22Z drmeister: But the "non-object" space does keep going up and up and up. 2014-06-06T21:15:49Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-06-06T21:15:57Z kobain quit (Changing host) 2014-06-06T21:15:57Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-06-06T21:16:32Z 6JTAAYQXT joined #lisp 2014-06-06T21:16:45Z 6JTAAYQXT quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T21:16:50Z FractalFive quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T21:17:11Z FractalFive joined #lisp 2014-06-06T21:18:25Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-06T21:18:55Z prxq: it makes sense that if you manage to have code that makes boehm leak, then it will make it leak copiously. 2014-06-06T21:20:49Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-06T21:22:41Z foreignFunction quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-06T21:24:51Z drewc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T21:25:12Z monod joined #lisp 2014-06-06T21:25:36Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-06T21:26:49Z seangrove quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T21:27:06Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-06T21:29:23Z drmeister: Here it is all together. Y-axis log(Bytes) red="heap" reported "non-object", green= total reachable, blue=reachable objects created only during the most recent scan of the C++ source file. http://imgur.com/tSN5jRL 2014-06-06T21:29:49Z drmeister: I'm doing just fine; Boehm - not so much. 2014-06-06T21:30:17Z phax quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T21:30:27Z Sir_herrbatka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-06T21:30:43Z jasom: drmeister: are you zeroing malloc/new allocated memory before freeing it? 2014-06-06T21:30:47Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-06T21:31:00Z jasom: drmeister: you might be leaving a pointer into a large boehm allocated graph set 2014-06-06T21:31:01Z drmeister: This justifies my entire world view - or at least the part about incorporating MPS. 2014-06-06T21:31:18Z drmeister: jasom: But then I would see it in the reachable set. 2014-06-06T21:31:20Z phax left #lisp 2014-06-06T21:31:34Z drmeister: It would still be reachable - no? 2014-06-06T21:31:36Z jasom: drmeister: are you walking even freed memory on the heap? 2014-06-06T21:32:56Z drmeister: I posted a question to the Boehm mailing list asking for code to walk all reachable objects. They were very helpful and sent me a couple of functions that I'm using. I'm not completely sure what it is walking but it looks like my objects. 2014-06-06T21:33:15Z jasom: oh 2014-06-06T21:33:24Z jasom: so you are using the boehm walker to generate that graph? 2014-06-06T21:33:26Z drmeister: There is one thing though - hang on. 2014-06-06T21:33:53Z kobain quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2014-06-06T21:34:36Z drmeister: Yeah - I'm using a Boehm walker. The code I was given was meant to (and I did) be copied into "reclaim.c" - one of the Boehm source files. 2014-06-06T21:35:03Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-06T21:35:07Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-06-06T21:35:39Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-06T21:35:56Z drmeister: When I first started walking the reachable objects there were a handful of objects that had garbled headers. I filter them out by writing and checking for 0xDEADBEEF in the first 8 bytes of my object headers. I don't see them now because they are filtered out. 2014-06-06T21:36:02Z drmeister: So I don't see everything. 2014-06-06T21:38:23Z jasom: drmeister: walk those too. That might be the issue 2014-06-06T21:39:07Z dbushenko quit (Quit: Ухожу я от вас (xchat 2.4.5 или старше)) 2014-06-06T21:39:11Z bmbernie joined #lisp 2014-06-06T21:40:06Z drmeister: jasom: I'll accumulate those as well - they were occasionally crashing my system when I tried to dereference a pointer that I put in the header and is mangled. I just won't dereference anything that doesn't have 0xDEADBEEF in the first 8 bytes. 2014-06-06T21:40:58Z jasom: drmeister: you could also limit it to your heap range 2014-06-06T21:41:05Z jasom: since for a single test you should know that 2014-06-06T21:43:09Z drmeister: What do you mean by "limit it to your heap range"? 2014-06-06T21:43:38Z jasom: drmeister: any pointer in your heap range should be followed 2014-06-06T21:47:27Z attila_lendvai1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-06T21:48:04Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-06T21:49:27Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-06T21:49:59Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-06T21:53:40Z drmeister: Got it - I'm just totaling up the memory used by invalid header objects. 2014-06-06T21:54:47Z sheilong quit (Quit: bbl) 2014-06-06T21:55:06Z drmeister: I wonder if I have to configure Boehm to set the upper memory usage? 2014-06-06T21:55:31Z drmeister: The thing is - if garbage collection wasn't working it wouldn't run for more than a few minutes before freezing my machine. 2014-06-06T21:55:39Z drmeister: And I know objects are being finalized. 2014-06-06T21:56:03Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-06T21:56:08Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T21:56:24Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-06T21:56:37Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-06T21:59:39Z phax quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T21:59:48Z kobain quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2014-06-06T21:59:48Z drmeister: Gotta catch a train -brb 2014-06-06T21:59:50Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T21:59:58Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-06T22:01:01Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-06-06T22:02:07Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-06-06T22:02:25Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T22:02:31Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-06-06T22:02:55Z njsg__ quit (Quit: nickserv...) 2014-06-06T22:03:07Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-06-06T22:03:07Z njsg joined #lisp 2014-06-06T22:03:36Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-06-06T22:04:12Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-06-06T22:04:37Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-06-06T22:05:14Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-06-06T22:05:50Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-06-06T22:05:56Z kobain quit (Changing host) 2014-06-06T22:05:56Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-06-06T22:08:20Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-06T22:09:22Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-06T22:10:00Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-06T22:10:36Z drmeister: jasom: I'm not sure I can limit it to a heap range - the pointer I'm using is the typeid(TYPE).name() - a pointer to the manged name of the type for that object. I use that with the Boehm GC because I don't need it for anything but debugging. 2014-06-06T22:11:40Z interlocutor joined #lisp 2014-06-06T22:12:41Z monod quit (Quit: Quit) 2014-06-06T22:14:54Z nydel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T22:15:14Z nydel joined #lisp 2014-06-06T22:17:32Z pjb: gendl: #xc2 #xae is the utf-8 encoding of ®. 2014-06-06T22:18:50Z Shinmera quit (Quit: 鍬形) 2014-06-06T22:19:24Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-06T22:21:20Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-06-06T22:21:43Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2014-06-06T22:21:44Z MightyJoe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T22:22:08Z nydel quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-06T22:24:03Z nydel joined #lisp 2014-06-06T22:24:21Z drmeister: The total memory used by those invalid header objects is only about 21MB - so that's not the problem. 2014-06-06T22:24:52Z easye quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T22:25:08Z easye joined #lisp 2014-06-06T22:25:32Z Code_Man` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-06T22:26:12Z drewc joined #lisp 2014-06-06T22:27:31Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T22:28:10Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-06T22:29:08Z Hydan_ quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-06T22:29:19Z gendl: pjb: thanks, so how would I put that into cl-pdf source? 2014-06-06T22:30:03Z gendl: into a cl-pdf source string e.g. to be emitted with pdf:draw-text 2014-06-06T22:33:35Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T22:34:23Z bmbernie quit 2014-06-06T22:38:02Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T22:40:24Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-06-06T22:44:20Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-06T22:44:56Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-06T22:46:37Z Krystof: axion: sort of 2014-06-06T22:46:40Z Krystof: not fo much longer 2014-06-06T22:46:58Z ircbrows- is now known as ircbrowse 2014-06-06T22:47:01Z ircbrowse quit (Changing host) 2014-06-06T22:47:01Z ircbrowse joined #lisp 2014-06-06T22:47:08Z axion: Krystof: some interesting code there 2014-06-06T22:47:34Z Krystof: yes. You need http://christophe.rhodes.io/gitweb/?p=specializable.git;a=summary and optima.ppcre to get it to work 2014-06-06T22:47:44Z axion: Not quite sure how it works, as I'll need to adapt it to another use-case. I have never used generic-function-class and don't quite understand (pattern _) 2014-06-06T22:47:44Z sweetpotato quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T22:48:03Z Krystof: ah, I thought I was attacking your use case ("does it contain an @ or not"?) 2014-06-06T22:48:10Z axion: Yes that is one :) 2014-06-06T22:48:56Z axion: i wouldve just done (find #\@ string)...maybe that's wrong? 2014-06-06T22:50:26Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T22:53:12Z whimse1 joined #lisp 2014-06-06T22:54:31Z Krystof: so you can of course dispatch "manually" 2014-06-06T22:54:45Z Krystof: your question this morning was about whether you could get methods to do the dispatch for you 2014-06-06T22:54:54Z Krystof: and you can, but only if you go quite a long way outside the standard 2014-06-06T22:57:42Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-06T22:57:44Z axion: i have another use case... 2014-06-06T22:58:19Z axion: for the same generic function...i need to send the string to a function (which passes it over a json rpc service and returns t or nil based on what it discovers) 2014-06-06T23:00:05Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-06T23:01:54Z drmeister is randomly turning Boehm configuration switches on and off. 2014-06-06T23:02:53Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-06T23:05:48Z malice quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-06T23:08:43Z rryoumaa joined #lisp 2014-06-06T23:08:56Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-06T23:10:19Z rryoumaa: in cl loop, is there a way to have something done on the first iteration? initially does not have access to vars in a for. this works but seems circuitous: (loop for i from 1 to 10 for kludge = t then nil when kludge do (print "hi") do (print i)) 2014-06-06T23:10:36Z Shinmera quit (Quit: ZzzzZ) 2014-06-06T23:11:33Z c3w quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-06T23:12:32Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T23:20:35Z duggiefresh quit 2014-06-06T23:30:38Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-06T23:31:31Z nipra quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-06T23:32:41Z joshe quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-06T23:33:47Z dim: (loop for i from 1 to 10 for first = t then nil when first do (print "hi") do (print i)) 2014-06-06T23:34:29Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-06-06T23:35:22Z Sgeo joined #lisp 2014-06-06T23:35:41Z dmiles_afk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T23:37:21Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T23:38:19Z innertracks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-06T23:38:55Z orthecreedence joined #lisp 2014-06-06T23:39:36Z orthecreedence: hello my friends. is there a way to get make-array return a 'simple-array type when using :displaced-to? 2014-06-06T23:39:48Z orthecreedence: it seems to only return 'vector 2014-06-06T23:40:38Z orthecreedence: i'm trying to do some memory-efficient stuff, but most of my code is expecting '(simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*)) types and using :displaced-to is messing with it since it returns '(vector (unsigned-byte 8) *) 2014-06-06T23:41:26Z wilfredh joined #lisp 2014-06-06T23:41:28Z orthecreedence: coercing the vector to s simple-array copies it and destroys the displaced-to ref 2014-06-06T23:41:34Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-06T23:43:08Z jxv quit (Quit: QUIT) 2014-06-06T23:43:09Z mhd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T23:43:35Z mhd joined #lisp 2014-06-06T23:43:39Z Bicyclidine: orthecreedence: displaced vectors are not simple 2014-06-06T23:44:09Z orthecreedence: ='( 2014-06-06T23:44:20Z orthecreedence: hmm 2014-06-06T23:44:20Z Bicyclidine: it is part of the definition of "simple array", in fact" 2014-06-06T23:44:26Z Bicyclidine: *-" 2014-06-06T23:45:22Z orthecreedence: so do you think it would be better to update my types to accept (or (simple-array ...) (vector ...)) or just do the copy instead? 2014-06-06T23:45:49Z Bicyclidine: i would update your functions to take index designators so you don't need to use displacement, i think 2014-06-06T23:46:39Z orthecreedence: hmm that's a thought, thanks 2014-06-06T23:46:44Z Bicyclidine: (myfun array :start 3) instead of (myfun (make-array (array-dimensions array) :displaced-to array :displaced-index-offset 3)) or whatever 2014-06-06T23:47:45Z orthecreedence: yeah that's a great idea, didn't think of that (even though practically every sequence function does it already). thanks for the tip! 2014-06-06T23:47:46Z Bicyclidine: that way all your array access will still be to svs, so no speed loss 2014-06-06T23:48:34Z Bicyclidine: with a displaced array it has to do some kind of indirection, which is why svref can't work on them. displaced arrays could probably be more useful than they are... 2014-06-06T23:50:06Z orthecreedence: well shit, let's update the spec ;-) 2014-06-06T23:51:04Z Bicyclidine: I guess it's hard to imagine something as simple as C "array + 3" cos you have to track length information and such in the object 2014-06-06T23:52:39Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-06T23:53:13Z aretecode joined #lisp 2014-06-06T23:54:07Z kobain quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-06T23:59:26Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-07T00:00:51Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T00:01:50Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2014-06-07T00:02:50Z jasom: What's a largish lisp system in quicklisp? 2014-06-07T00:03:00Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-06-07T00:04:27Z axion: define largish 2014-06-07T00:04:29Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-07T00:04:32Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-07T00:04:35Z Bicyclidine: embeddable-maxima? 2014-06-07T00:05:02Z Bicyclidine: though i don't think it's finished 2014-06-07T00:05:38Z Bicyclidine: stumpwm 2014-06-07T00:05:40Z jasom: axion: Doesn't need to be abnormally large, but not something trivial 2014-06-07T00:05:58Z jasom: axion: think "typical amount of code in a production application" (though I know that's super vague) 2014-06-07T00:06:01Z axion: large compile size, function wise, or what? 2014-06-07T00:06:43Z Bicyclidine: drakma 2014-06-07T00:09:06Z jasom: axion: memory usage once compiled 2014-06-07T00:09:13Z jasom: axion: that is, image size 2014-06-07T00:09:20Z jasom: Bicyclidine: drakma sounds good 2014-06-07T00:09:52Z orthecreedence: drakma-async too, it's like drakma but adds a whole ton of crap on top of it 2014-06-07T00:10:48Z jasom: I'm benchmarking startup time for standalone applications; IIRC sbcl's is strongly related to image size, so I want a "minimal image" and "with a lot of stuff" benchmark 2014-06-07T00:11:10Z jasom: sbcl's has gone down dramatically in the last few minor versions though, so they may have reduced the amount of O(n) work involved 2014-06-07T00:13:17Z axion: i was pleased to learn sbcl added gzip compressed image support a while ago...just figured that out a couple weeks ago. considerable size difference, though i'm not sure how that affects startup time 2014-06-07T00:15:14Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-07T00:15:34Z jasom: axion: quite negatively 2014-06-07T00:16:12Z jasom: Unless you miss the disk cache, it fairly obvioulsy can't make it faster, and guzip is slower than memory 2014-06-07T00:17:08Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-07T00:17:23Z axion: obviously slower, although gunzip is relatively fast 2014-06-07T00:17:55Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2014-06-07T00:18:53Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2014-06-07T00:20:17Z zenyfish` joined #lisp 2014-06-07T00:20:56Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T00:22:08Z zenyfish quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-07T00:29:48Z jasom: hmm, sbcl now beats all implementations I have installed excepting ccl 2014-06-07T00:30:20Z jasom: and clisp nearly triples in time for a default image versus with drakma 2014-06-07T00:32:44Z jasom: ecl is the slowest by a factor of 100x 2014-06-07T00:33:01Z jchochli_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T00:33:08Z jasom: and it's the only one to take more than 10ms on my system 2014-06-07T00:35:07Z Bicyclidine quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-07T00:36:02Z nug700 joined #lisp 2014-06-07T00:38:26Z ikki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T00:39:51Z orthecreedence: poor ECL, i really want it to be faster/more efficient 2014-06-07T00:40:06Z orthecreedence: i'm planning on using it for a largish project 2014-06-07T00:40:23Z pjb: It would be difficult to make it much faster, since it's based on C technology. 2014-06-07T00:40:50Z orthecreedence: well i suppose there may be c-specific optimizations that could be done 2014-06-07T00:40:58Z orthecreedence: perhaps i'm wrong though, i don't understand the internals at all 2014-06-07T00:41:15Z orthecreedence: i'd like to take some time and start hacking with it at some point though. 2014-06-07T00:41:28Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-07T00:41:42Z jasom: pjb: that seems blatantly false to me; you could e.g. add Python style type unboxing without breaking anything 2014-06-07T00:41:44Z pjb: like forking an external gcc process to compile… 2014-06-07T00:41:49Z rryoumaa left #lisp 2014-06-07T00:41:59Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2014-06-07T00:42:00Z blah` joined #lisp 2014-06-07T00:42:03Z orthecreedence: oh you mean compilation time? yeah not much to be done about that 2014-06-07T00:42:08Z lduros quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T00:42:21Z orthecreedence: i was more talking about compiled-code performance/memory usage in general 2014-06-07T00:42:28Z pjb: Even dynamic library linking, I'm not sure that's fast compared to what lisp can do. 2014-06-07T00:42:31Z jasom: is tcc complete enough for ecl? That would improve compilation time at the expense of run-time 2014-06-07T00:43:27Z orthecreedence: easy way to find out ;) 2014-06-07T00:43:50Z zRecursive: jasom: IIRC, TCC seems not maintained now ? 2014-06-07T00:43:57Z huza joined #lisp 2014-06-07T00:43:58Z jasom: zRecursive: someone else picked it up 2014-06-07T00:44:05Z pjb: A good match for ecl then? 2014-06-07T00:44:07Z zRecursive: oh 2014-06-07T00:44:25Z jasom: it's also packaged as a library, and I made some FFI bindings for it so I could call C stuff from the repl 2014-06-07T00:46:52Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-07T00:48:27Z jasom: hmm I can't figure out how to tell ecl to build a 32-bit version (there isn't an x86_64 version of tcc that I know) 2014-06-07T00:48:36Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-07T00:51:10Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-07T00:51:16Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-07T00:52:11Z orthecreedence: -m32 doesnt work? 2014-06-07T00:54:46Z zRecursive: jasom: Is there git repo for TCC ? 2014-06-07T00:55:09Z jasom: orthecreedence: it's more complicated than that; it's libffi causing the problem, which is a recursively called ./configure 2014-06-07T00:55:26Z orthecreedence: oh when compiling ecl? 2014-06-07T00:55:35Z jasom: zRecursive: git://repo.or.cz/tinycc.git I think 2014-06-07T00:55:38Z jasom: orthecreedence: yeah 2014-06-07T00:55:52Z orthecreedence: why not build libffi independently and tell ECL to link against it? 2014-06-07T00:55:53Z zRecursive: jasom: thanks 2014-06-07T00:56:03Z jasom: orthecreedence: yeah, I'm working on it 2014-06-07T00:56:09Z orthecreedence: =] 2014-06-07T00:57:02Z jasom: #error "ECL needs AO_compare_and_swap_full or an equivalent" 2014-06-07T00:58:29Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-07T00:58:52Z jasom: that appears to be a boehm thing? 2014-06-07T01:00:07Z orthecreedence: yeah looks like it 2014-06-07T01:01:16Z jasom: /export/jmiller/home/src/ecl/src/c/symbols_list.h:2336: error: ')' expected (got "}") 2014-06-07T01:04:10Z jasom: {((void *)0), 0 | 0, ((void *)0), -1, ((cl_object)((void *)0))} <-- that appears to be causing the problem 2014-06-07T01:05:34Z Bike: that's some cool C right there, gotta say 2014-06-07T01:05:57Z jasom: ((void *)0) is an expansion of NULL 2014-06-07T01:06:04Z jasom: (this is preprocessed) 2014-06-07T01:06:28Z Bike: darn. 2014-06-07T01:07:51Z jasom: well I'll submit a bug to tcc later, sicne this is clearly valid C code 2014-06-07T01:09:46Z jasom: pjb: tcc can compile and run a C program faster than any of the lisps I've benchmarked can startup and (quit) 2014-06-07T01:10:10Z jasom: It even has a -run option that is for usage in #! scripts 2014-06-07T01:10:38Z jasom: anyway, I'm off to dinner 2014-06-07T01:11:08Z blah`` joined #lisp 2014-06-07T01:11:30Z zRecursive: jasom: wait, tccelf.c:1962: error: 'strsec' undeclared (first use in this function) 2014-06-07T01:12:17Z JuanDaugherty quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-07T01:14:07Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T01:14:13Z blah` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-07T01:21:15Z boogie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T01:24:56Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2014-06-07T01:26:48Z varjag_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-06-07T01:27:38Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T01:31:16Z blah``` joined #lisp 2014-06-07T01:31:16Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-06-07T01:31:23Z chu joined #lisp 2014-06-07T01:32:00Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 2014-06-07T01:34:03Z blah`` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-07T01:38:49Z orthecreedence quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-07T01:40:15Z ehaliewicz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T01:40:26Z z0d quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-06-07T01:40:44Z ehaliewicz joined #lisp 2014-06-07T01:42:03Z galactic_pretty_ joined #lisp 2014-06-07T01:43:33Z urandom_1 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-07T01:45:19Z Hydan quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Thanks. 2014-06-07T02:47:41Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-07T02:54:07Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-07T03:01:55Z mordocai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T03:01:55Z vinleod quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-07T03:02:10Z zRecursive left #lisp 2014-06-07T03:06:24Z blah````` joined #lisp 2014-06-07T03:08:56Z Rptx quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-07T03:10:08Z blah```` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T03:13:42Z Vivitron` joined #lisp 2014-06-07T03:15:26Z Vivitron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T03:17:57Z ufd quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-07T03:23:56Z ufd joined #lisp 2014-06-07T03:26:54Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-07T03:32:38Z ufd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T03:41:05Z blah````` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-07T03:41:18Z kcj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T03:42:29Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-07T03:47:35Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-07T03:51:07Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-06-07T03:57:38Z jchochli quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-07T03:58:35Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-06-07T04:05:33Z ufd joined #lisp 2014-06-07T04:06:52Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-07T04:08:10Z sigjuice_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T04:08:28Z sigjuice joined #lisp 2014-06-07T04:09:26Z KCL_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T04:13:18Z marsbot quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T04:14:31Z marsbot joined #lisp 2014-06-07T04:14:34Z marsbot is now known as marsam 2014-06-07T04:16:28Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-07T04:27:32Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-07T04:27:35Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-07T04:29:17Z madis_ joined #lisp 2014-06-07T04:31:09Z madist quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-07T04:31:57Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-07T04:36:29Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-07T04:40:20Z beach: The thunderstorms in Sài Gòn are pitiful compared to those in Bordeaux. 2014-06-07T04:40:30Z beach: [off-topic, I know. Sorry!] 2014-06-07T04:44:54Z killmaster quit (Quit: Bye!) 2014-06-07T04:44:59Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-07T04:46:10Z killmaster joined #lisp 2014-06-07T04:47:18Z galactic_pretty_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T04:50:56Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-07T04:59:23Z madis_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-07T04:59:53Z MouldyOldBones quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T05:01:17Z MouldyOldBones joined #lisp 2014-06-07T05:02:07Z YDJX joined #lisp 2014-06-07T05:02:20Z kcj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-07T05:02:31Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-07T05:03:48Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-07T05:06:06Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T05:06:11Z KCL_ joined #lisp 2014-06-07T05:06:42Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-07T05:06:55Z boogie joined #lisp 2014-06-07T05:08:52Z ykm joined #lisp 2014-06-07T05:09:27Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T05:10:13Z ykm: acc 2014-06-07T05:10:27Z ykm quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-07T05:10:40Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-06-07T05:14:00Z Denommus quit (Quit: going to sleep) 2014-06-07T05:16:06Z innertracks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T05:16:29Z ahungry: anyone wanna give a 30 second review of my game written in common lisp? 2014-06-07T05:16:52Z Bike: are you giving out a download or what 2014-06-07T05:17:42Z ahungry: its in browser 2014-06-07T05:17:54Z ahungry: will work best in firefox, but its at http://pseudo.ahungry.com 2014-06-07T05:18:02Z sheilong joined #lisp 2014-06-07T05:18:06Z ahungry: any websocket enabled brwoser will work 2014-06-07T05:19:40Z drmeister quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2014-06-07T05:19:50Z chu: Just loads here. 2014-06-07T05:20:54Z Bike: ahungry: http://i.imgur.com/pM2EALj.png?1 2014-06-07T05:22:55Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2014-06-07T05:23:19Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2014-06-07T05:23:40Z MjrTom`-` joined #lisp 2014-06-07T05:23:40Z MjrTom quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-07T05:23:49Z MjrTom`-` is now known as MjrTom 2014-06-07T05:24:37Z ahungry: ah thanks Bike 2014-06-07T05:25:11Z Bike: referring to the sort of rectangular pattern on the ground there. 2014-06-07T05:25:30Z Bike: also the fps hit the dirt whenever i moved. 2014-06-07T05:26:23Z ahungry: I guess I definitely need to iron out the kinks with the floor and do some more local QA :) 2014-06-07T05:26:36Z ahungry: thanks for taking a look, at least the new websocket stuff seems fine 2014-06-07T05:26:57Z Bike: yeah, it didn't take too long to load or anything. 2014-06-07T05:27:21Z boogie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T05:30:42Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-07T05:31:21Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-07T05:33:22Z phax left #lisp 2014-06-07T05:34:57Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T05:35:12Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-07T05:38:39Z beach: Is there any situation where a reference to a special variable (say x) does not have the same meaning as (symbol-value 'x)? Similarly, is there any situation where (setf x ) does not have the same meaning as (setf (symbol-value 'x) )? 2014-06-07T05:40:24Z Bike: mm... not that i can think of. 2014-06-07T05:40:42Z Bike: maybe something weird with symbol macros. 2014-06-07T05:41:12Z beach: Yeah, that might be possible. 2014-06-07T05:41:30Z beach: I'll think some more. Or wait until pjb figures out an example :) 2014-06-07T05:41:44Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T05:42:38Z Bike: though i think (symbol-macrolet ((foo ...)) (declare (special foo)) ...) is explicitly wrong 2014-06-07T05:43:11Z Bike: and (locally (declare (special foo)) (symbol-macrolet ((foo ...)) ...)) is just a shadow 2014-06-07T05:43:32Z beach: That's possible. It is not important for what I need though. 2014-06-07T05:44:33Z beach: Basically, I am thinking that in Cleavir I right now have a special kind of location for specials. But I can make an AST and an instruction corresponding to symbol-value, and eliminate the special location. 2014-06-07T05:45:08Z beach: Those ASTs and instructions would just take the symbol as argument/input. 2014-06-07T05:45:42Z beach: This solution would not prevent any particular implementation of those operations. That's all I need to make sure. 2014-06-07T05:49:18Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T05:52:42Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2014-06-07T05:58:23Z kami joined #lisp 2014-06-07T05:58:30Z kami: Good morning #lisp 2014-06-07T05:59:59Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-07T06:00:29Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-07T06:02:55Z beach: Hello kami! 2014-06-07T06:06:57Z beach: kami: Long time no see! What have you been up to (Lisp related, that is)? 2014-06-07T06:07:20Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T06:08:39Z kami: beach: I had a long pause, filled with Java. During the last months, I've been working in my spare time on swclos. 2014-06-07T06:08:54Z c74d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T06:10:28Z kami: http://www-kasm.nii.ac.jp/~koide/SWCLOS2-en.htm 2014-06-07T06:10:44Z kami: I would like to port it to SBCL 2014-06-07T06:11:24Z wgreenhouse quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-07T06:11:56Z kami: https://github.com/SeijiKoide/SWCLOS 2014-06-07T06:12:24Z kami: There is a LispWorks port already at https://github.com/fpopineau/SWCLOS 2014-06-07T06:12:53Z beach: What complicates the port to SBCL? 2014-06-07T06:16:01Z kami: mop is used extensively with a lot of dispersed #+ switches throughout the whole code base 2014-06-07T06:16:01Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for is used extensively with a lot of dispersed #+ switches throughout the whole code base. 2014-06-07T06:16:17Z kami: :) 2014-06-07T06:16:54Z nightfly: mop what 2014-06-07T06:16:54Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for what. 2014-06-07T06:17:31Z beach: heh! specbot now knows about mop stuff. 2014-06-07T06:17:32Z kami: I'm introducing c2mop to make things cleaner, at the same time reading up about different implementations 2014-06-07T06:17:45Z beach: kami: Could you use closer-mop? 2014-06-07T06:17:58Z beach: Oops. 2014-06-07T06:18:00Z kami: beach: c2mop is an alias for closer-mop 2014-06-07T06:18:04Z kami: :) 2014-06-07T06:18:06Z beach: yes, I saw it too late. 2014-06-07T06:18:48Z Bike: beach: the complication that comes to mind there is threading, but it's probably still just symbol-values 2014-06-07T06:19:19Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-07T06:19:39Z beach: Bike: Yes, as far as I can tell, symbol-value works just like a reference to a special variable in the presence of threads. 2014-06-07T06:20:14Z beach: Bike: Thanks for the reassurance! 2014-06-07T06:20:29Z kami: beach: I currently have a problem with the redefinition of a superclass which leads to a loop 2014-06-07T06:20:32Z Bike: uncited reassurance is my specialty 2014-06-07T06:20:48Z beach: Heh! 2014-06-07T06:21:12Z beach finds it hard to think through all possibilities by himself, and therefore solicits help. 2014-06-07T06:22:28Z beach: kami: Normally, that should not be a problem. 2014-06-07T06:22:57Z Bike: loop in a cpl is illegal, i thought 2014-06-07T06:23:21Z beach: Yes, I meant redefining a superclass should not be a problem. 2014-06-07T06:23:22Z kami: If you look at https://github.com/SeijiKoide/SWCLOS/blob/master/RDFS/RDFboot.cl 2014-06-07T06:23:48Z kami: The comment starting at line 18 2014-06-07T06:24:26Z kami: and the first defclass forms at 78 2014-06-07T06:25:17Z beach is not sufficiently awake to even parse the comments. 2014-06-07T06:26:06Z beach: kami: Are you saying you WANT a loop, or that this happens by accident? 2014-06-07T06:26:41Z kami: the loop is wanted 2014-06-07T06:28:44Z kami: rdfsClass is defined first, then |rdfs|:|Class|, both having rdf-node as super 2014-06-07T06:29:27Z kami: the metaclass of |rdfs|:|Class| if rdfsClass 2014-06-07T06:29:54Z beach: Maybe Bike is more awake than I am. I can't understand it right now. 2014-06-07T06:29:59Z kami: :) 2014-06-07T06:30:09Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-07T06:32:33Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-07T06:32:38Z Bike: oh, metaclassy loops should be fine 2014-06-07T06:32:48Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-07T06:34:02Z Bike: what problem are you having particularly? 2014-06-07T06:34:13Z Bike: like, what error exactly 2014-06-07T06:35:26Z c74d joined #lisp 2014-06-07T06:35:29Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-06-07T06:36:55Z Bike: maybe some validate-superclass stuff. 2014-06-07T06:38:48Z cyraxjoe quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2014-06-07T06:39:07Z MightyJoe joined #lisp 2014-06-07T06:39:07Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2014-06-07T06:43:27Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-06-07T06:43:43Z sheilong quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-07T06:44:57Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-06-07T06:46:17Z kami: Bike: wait, I'll paste 2014-06-07T06:46:56Z Corvidium joined #lisp 2014-06-07T06:47:47Z prxq joined #lisp 2014-06-07T06:50:01Z kami: Bike: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142807 2014-06-07T06:50:27Z Bike: Oh, you meant loop as in it hangs? 2014-06-07T06:50:38Z Corvidium: I must take up the lambda again, for I shall not abandon the crusade 2014-06-07T06:50:57Z Corvidium: That is to say, after finals week I will return 2014-06-07T06:51:11Z nightfly: o\ 2014-06-07T06:51:15Z nug700 quit (Quit: bye) 2014-06-07T06:51:28Z Bike: man, i do not know what is going on here, pcl is ridiculous 2014-06-07T06:52:53Z kami: Bike: I think the reason is that class-precedence-list is called recursively 2014-06-07T06:53:10Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-06-07T06:53:28Z Bike: no, the cpl is simple. i think update-lisp-class-layout is metaclass related. 2014-06-07T06:53:52Z Bike: any chance you could get, like, the first part of the backtrace, maybe? 2014-06-07T06:54:01Z kami: sure 2014-06-07T06:54:58Z kami: done 2014-06-07T06:55:09Z kami: brb 2014-06-07T06:55:35Z Bike: ok, right, that was silly of me 2014-06-07T06:58:32Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-07T06:59:45Z JokerDoomWork joined #lisp 2014-06-07T07:00:16Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2014-06-07T07:02:19Z zickzackv joined #lisp 2014-06-07T07:06:48Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-07T07:07:09Z anler joined #lisp 2014-06-07T07:10:23Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-07T07:10:44Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-07T07:14:37Z zz_karupa is now known as karupa 2014-06-07T07:15:30Z madist joined #lisp 2014-06-07T07:18:45Z Bike: mop finalize-inheritance 2014-06-07T07:18:45Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/finalize-inheritance.html 2014-06-07T07:18:47Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2014-06-07T07:18:47Z ramkrsna quit (Changing host) 2014-06-07T07:18:47Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2014-06-07T07:18:57Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2014-06-07T07:18:59Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-07T07:23:44Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-07T07:24:28Z mr-foobar joined #lisp 2014-06-07T07:25:02Z MjrTom`-` joined #lisp 2014-06-07T07:25:02Z MjrTom quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-07T07:25:10Z MjrTom`-` is now known as MjrTom 2014-06-07T07:25:44Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T07:26:38Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-06-07T07:26:41Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-07T07:30:09Z kami: Bike: I have already tried finalize-inheritance before redefining and ran into another problem. Let me try to isolate the problem into a stand-alone code snippet. 2014-06-07T07:31:44Z Bike: it's pretty simple. (defclass foo (standard-class)) (c2mop:ensure-class 'foo :metaclass 'foo) => you spin me right round 2014-06-07T07:32:23Z Bike: obviously pcl has (and (typep 'standard-class 'standard-class) (subtypep 'standard-class 'standard-class)) but it's through hackery 2014-06-07T07:33:17Z Bike: er, standard-object, or something, whatever 2014-06-07T07:33:50Z Bike: gotta find-class, right. 2014-06-07T07:36:16Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2014-06-07T07:39:43Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-07T07:40:17Z JokerDoomWork quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-07T07:48:00Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2014-06-07T07:56:39Z mishoo_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-07T07:57:16Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-07T08:04:08Z orthecreedence quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T08:05:15Z ski_ joined #lisp 2014-06-07T08:06:07Z Borbus quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-07T08:06:07Z ski quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-07T08:06:07Z dsp_ quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-07T08:06:08Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T08:06:35Z Borbus joined #lisp 2014-06-07T08:07:04Z dsp joined #lisp 2014-06-07T08:09:48Z varjag_ joined #lisp 2014-06-07T08:15:20Z ufd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T08:20:15Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2014-06-07T08:20:18Z segv- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T08:21:40Z Sir_herrbatka joined #lisp 2014-06-07T08:27:29Z ufd joined #lisp 2014-06-07T08:34:02Z mbrock left #lisp 2014-06-07T08:46:15Z kami: Bike, with finalize-inheritance between the forms, it seems to work. 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2014-06-07T11:20:10Z hitecnologys: meek_geek: yes. 2014-06-07T11:20:46Z meek_geek: I started with c++ ( used turbo c++ compiler ) in high school and i developed a program that did a lot of calculations for us .. also printed the output and save it in file if required l; also local lang and colors ; 2014-06-07T11:21:03Z meek_geek: but it gave me .exe which I could share and even mac/linux users could use it 2014-06-07T11:21:05Z meek_geek: using dosbox 2014-06-07T11:21:19Z meek_geek: so can I do something like that hitecnologys ? 2014-06-07T11:22:04Z hitecnologys: meek_geek: I see no reasons why you couldn't do any of that. 2014-06-07T11:22:10Z ggole joined #lisp 2014-06-07T11:24:42Z meek_geek: hitecnologys, I m just asking is this a nice programming lang for starter ? 2014-06-07T11:24:52Z meek_geek: I program small program for school in 2006 2014-06-07T11:24:56Z meek_geek: when i was 16 2014-06-07T11:25:13Z meek_geek: i forgot even Turbo C++ looks now 2014-06-07T11:25:23Z meek_geek: i was like edit in ms-dos 2014-06-07T11:26:14Z hitecnologys: minion: tell meek_geek about PCL 2014-06-07T11:26:14Z minion: meek_geek: direct your attention towards PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2014-06-07T11:26:18Z decent: just started looking at lisp and it just seems nice. see where it end up :D 2014-06-07T11:26:49Z meek_geek: minion, fsf has a book on it too 2014-06-07T11:26:49Z minion: what is ``it''? 2014-06-07T11:27:01Z meek_geek: which it ? 2014-06-07T11:27:06Z hitecnologys: minion: are you a bot? 2014-06-07T11:27:06Z minion: i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 2014-06-07T11:27:54Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-07T11:30:25Z meek_geek: heh 2014-06-07T11:32:08Z decent: :D 2014-06-07T11:32:30Z meek_geek: decent, u program ? 2014-06-07T11:32:36Z meek_geek: I want to learn gui with lisps 2014-06-07T11:33:24Z hitecnologys: meek_geek: take a look at CommonQt. 2014-06-07T11:33:39Z decent: meek_geek: oh I'm in the earliest possible stage of my lisping. :) or something. but I've seen some youtube video with lisp and OpenGL 2014-06-07T11:33:59Z hitecnologys: meek_geek: it's FFI bindings to Qt for CL. 2014-06-07T11:34:01Z decent: shouldn't any limits from using lisp 2014-06-07T11:35:11Z meek_geek: ok 2014-06-07T11:38:56Z nvmme joined #lisp 2014-06-07T11:39:00Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-06-07T11:39:47Z mishoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T11:40:06Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-07T11:49:01Z Eyes quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-07T11:49:30Z Eyes joined #lisp 2014-06-07T11:50:08Z blah` joined #lisp 2014-06-07T11:50:29Z naryl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-07T11:50:43Z Corvidium quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-07T11:54:19Z sthalik quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T11:54:38Z ramkrsna quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T11:55:20Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-07T12:01:38Z AT-void joined #lisp 2014-06-07T12:01:43Z AT-void: moin 2014-06-07T12:02:00Z beach: Hello AT-void! 2014-06-07T12:02:23Z AT-void: hello beach, nice nick :) 2014-06-07T12:02:37Z AT-void: i wish a had a cocktail now :) 2014-06-07T12:02:47Z arst joined #lisp 2014-06-07T12:02:50Z beach: Thanks. It's just my last name translated into English. 2014-06-07T12:03:07Z AT-void: ^^ great 2014-06-07T12:03:07Z beach: AT-void: I don't recognize your nick. Are you new here? 2014-06-07T12:03:15Z AT-void: yes 2014-06-07T12:03:30Z beach: OK, welcome, then! 2014-06-07T12:03:47Z AT-void: thanks :) 2014-06-07T12:05:08Z beach: AT-void: Do you know Lisp already? 2014-06-07T12:05:21Z AT-void: at present i try to run a lisp env. on my pc. this is not so easy i thought before ^^ 2014-06-07T12:05:46Z beach: Yeah, you did the right thing coming here for advice. 2014-06-07T12:07:03Z AT-void: hehe, i will reach my goal in a few hours i think, we see :D 2014-06-07T12:07:20Z beach: I (and many others) use GNU/Linux + SBCL + Emacs + SLIME 2014-06-07T12:07:41Z effy: i did my installation a week ago, if you are on linux is pretty straight forward with sbcl + emacs + slime 2014-06-07T12:08:12Z beach agrees. 2014-06-07T12:08:13Z AT-void: i installed CentOS and try exactly this, but this is all new for me - its a bit diffrent from win :D 2014-06-07T12:09:45Z aftershave joined #lisp 2014-06-07T12:10:33Z beach: It's just another Linux distribution, right? 2014-06-07T12:10:39Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-07T12:10:50Z AT-void: yes, a fork(?) from rhel 2014-06-07T12:12:15Z beach: That ought to work then. 2014-06-07T12:13:40Z AT-void: i think so, emacs and sbcl are running at present, i am trying to start(?) slime from emacs to do some lisp :P 2014-06-07T12:14:11Z beach: Are they still using RPM packages? 2014-06-07T12:14:32Z Shinmera: CommonQT made me a bit sad today as I realized I need to manually destroy unneeded objects again. Oh the luxury of garbage collection. 2014-06-07T12:14:50Z AT-void: yes, they use RPM 2014-06-07T12:15:23Z AT-void: so i think it could not so difficult 2014-06-07T12:15:48Z beach: AT-void: Don't install SBCL + SLIME from RPM, though. 2014-06-07T12:15:50Z blah` left #lisp 2014-06-07T12:16:08Z arst quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T12:16:18Z beach: AT-void: Usually, those packages are way out of date. I don't know for sure for CentOS, though. 2014-06-07T12:17:05Z beach: AT-void: As I recall, the recommendation is to install SBCL from Sourceforge, and then let Quicklisp do the rest. 2014-06-07T12:17:13Z beach: That's what I do at least. 2014-06-07T12:17:35Z AT-void: ok, i will try this, thank you! 2014-06-07T12:18:04Z effy: AT-void: https://gist.github.com/peluche/d82a9eb2498e3b4aedc5#file-gistfile1-org 2014-06-07T12:18:10Z effy: i did the install like a week ago using that 2014-06-07T12:19:08Z AT-void: nice, i will try this then, thx effy 2014-06-07T12:20:22Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-07T12:20:24Z tajjada joined #lisp 2014-06-07T12:22:02Z effy: my only problem so far is that slime is so full-featured, that i dont know what shortcuts to learn :) 2014-06-07T12:22:18Z beach: effy: A new one every day. 2014-06-07T12:22:39Z effy: use the C-x C-e a lot and the C-c C-d d a lot but aside of that i dont know what to pick 2014-06-07T12:22:49Z beach is a believer in Kaizen. 2014-06-07T12:23:27Z effy: but i dont know how to find the most usefull ones it's like org-mode there is so much of them, i dont know how to locate the life changing ones 2014-06-07T12:23:59Z beach: I recommend you read though the manual a few times, and try some of them out. 2014-06-07T12:24:13Z beach: Then you will think of them when you have a particular problem to solve. 2014-06-07T12:25:17Z beach: I personally use the backtrace commands a lot like RET and e. 2014-06-07T12:25:23Z beach: Also the inspector. 2014-06-07T12:25:32Z effy: that's probably a good practice, but the manual is way too thick, i'd rather continue to read real books :( 2014-06-07T12:26:35Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-06-07T12:29:07Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-06-07T12:29:33Z beach vanishes for a while. 2014-06-07T12:36:59Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-07T12:38:00Z AT-void: hmmm, now i have a emacs with windows? -.- is this better then the consol-version? what should i use? or what is to recommend? 2014-06-07T12:38:55Z AT-void: yeah, this one have games^^ 2014-06-07T12:40:23Z fantazo joined #lisp 2014-06-07T12:43:11Z meek_geek left #lisp 2014-06-07T12:43:40Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-07T12:45:33Z effy: AT-void: you can start it with emacs -nw to have the console version if you want to 2014-06-07T12:46:48Z decent: guess the biggest problem with learning lisp is the suggestion to use emacs. :) 2014-06-07T12:47:11Z AT-void: ah, fine, thx effy, :P 2014-06-07T12:47:14Z AT-void: emacs looks quite nice 2014-06-07T12:47:49Z aster` joined #lisp 2014-06-07T12:47:50Z decent: guess I should give time to learn it somewhat at least. :) 2014-06-07T12:47:58Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T12:48:02Z aster` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T12:48:10Z effy: decent: depends where you come from, there is still a lot of people using poor editors, emacs might be the only thing they keep from this experience :P 2014-06-07T12:49:07Z decent: effy: I'm a vimmer :) 2014-06-07T12:49:32Z effy: vim is not a poor editor so it's ok :) 2014-06-07T12:49:57Z decent: effy: yeah. but I guess it can be good to use emacs just so I can follow some tutorials as a start. 2014-06-07T12:49:59Z effy: i was thinking of the big lot of people using useless things (that's the moment i offend people) like notepad++ gedit ... 2014-06-07T12:50:04Z AT-void: to "open" slime from emacs "M-x slime" should work? 2014-06-07T12:50:38Z effy: yup 2014-06-07T12:50:51Z AT-void: notepad++ is quite fine - i like it for the search-in-file and replace-in-file-function :) 2014-06-07T12:52:04Z effy: every half decent editor can replace and search :) 2014-06-07T12:52:29Z AT-void: Windows editor could not :/ 2014-06-07T12:52:41Z decent: windows? 2014-06-07T12:52:52Z AT-void: yes, the thing from MS :P 2014-06-07T12:53:25Z JuniorRoy joined #lisp 2014-06-07T12:54:07Z decent: ah well.. time to buy something to eat.. then I guess I'll find some good emacs tutorial and turn facebook chat off :P 2014-06-07T12:54:58Z AT-void: maybe you could write a facebook-chat-plugin for emacs :D 2014-06-07T12:55:37Z decent: probably.. just not sure I need it.. I already have too much distration :) 2014-06-07T12:56:06Z AT-void: hehe, square meal 2014-06-07T12:57:29Z c74d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-07T12:58:46Z ASau` joined #lisp 2014-06-07T13:00:35Z huza joined #lisp 2014-06-07T13:00:56Z c74d joined #lisp 2014-06-07T13:01:06Z rszeno joined #lisp 2014-06-07T13:02:17Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-07T13:02:37Z Patzy quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-07T13:03:57Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-06-07T13:06:19Z tajjada quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-07T13:06:32Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T13:06:56Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-07T13:07:43Z Code_Man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T13:07:57Z tajjada joined #lisp 2014-06-07T13:08:47Z Shinmera- joined #lisp 2014-06-07T13:09:20Z malice quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T13:09:22Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2014-06-07T13:09:47Z Shinmera quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-07T13:10:17Z nvmme quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T13:12:11Z nvmme joined #lisp 2014-06-07T13:14:03Z zickzackv joined #lisp 2014-06-07T13:16:33Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-06-07T13:19:05Z therik joined #lisp 2014-06-07T13:23:35Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2014-06-07T13:27:56Z otwieracz: How to check if object is printable? 2014-06-07T13:30:28Z tajjada quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-07T13:32:28Z puchacz joined #lisp 2014-06-07T13:32:43Z puchacz: hi, from sbcl manual on threading: "if you interrupt a thread that was holding important locks then do something that turns out to need those locks, you probably won't like the effect." 2014-06-07T13:33:10Z puchacz: stopping threads in java is discouraged as well, so I guess it is a fundamental thing, isn'it? 2014-06-07T13:33:32Z puchacz: and if I want to kill a thread, I think the only safe way to do so is to set a shared variable like contiunue-p to NIL 2014-06-07T13:33:57Z puchacz: and a function that runs in a thread, for example on each iteration, would check contiune-p value 2014-06-07T13:33:59Z puchacz: correct? 2014-06-07T13:34:19Z puchacz: but there is a function sb-thread:terminate-thread 2014-06-07T13:34:23Z jonh left #lisp 2014-06-07T13:34:32Z puchacz: and it has no caveat like interrupt above..... 2014-06-07T13:35:32Z Shinmera-: terminate-thread uses interrupt-thread. 2014-06-07T13:35:32Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T13:35:36Z Shinmera-: just look at the source 2014-06-07T13:35:38Z JokerDoomWork joined #lisp 2014-06-07T13:35:49Z puchacz: Shinmera: so a shared variable then? 2014-06-07T13:35:51Z JuniorRoy1 joined #lisp 2014-06-07T13:35:53Z puchacz: the only safe way? 2014-06-07T13:36:22Z Shinmera-: yes 2014-06-07T13:36:33Z puchacz: thanks 2014-06-07T13:36:45Z JuniorRoy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-07T13:37:05Z Eyes quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-07T13:37:15Z Eyes joined #lisp 2014-06-07T13:38:59Z Shinmera-: That is, if you can assure that the thread will hit this termination check often enough 2014-06-07T13:39:10Z puchacz: yes, of course 2014-06-07T13:39:24Z Shinmera- is now known as Shinmera 2014-06-07T13:39:31Z puchacz: and then I can even use some non-local exit I guess 2014-06-07T13:40:03Z JokerDoomWork quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-07T13:40:15Z puchacz: (with-whatever ...) macros are usually compatible with non-local exits I think 2014-06-07T13:40:25Z puchacz: and clean up after themselves 2014-06-07T13:44:18Z puchacz: is throw/catch good for it? I have never used it 2014-06-07T13:47:48Z AT-void quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T13:48:38Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-06-07T13:49:10Z puchacz: if it was java, I would have thrown an exception. exceptions in java are not only for error handling 2014-06-07T13:52:43Z Eyes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T13:53:11Z Eyes joined #lisp 2014-06-07T13:53:13Z Eyes quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-07T13:54:47Z Eyes joined #lisp 2014-06-07T13:56:27Z phadthai quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-07T13:59:00Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-07T13:59:07Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-06-07T14:00:26Z huza quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2014-06-07T14:01:16Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2014-06-07T14:01:41Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-07T14:03:35Z phadthai joined #lisp 2014-06-07T14:04:27Z Eyes quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-07T14:04:52Z Eyes joined #lisp 2014-06-07T14:06:41Z pnpuff quit 2014-06-07T14:10:56Z eni joined #lisp 2014-06-07T14:11:39Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-07T14:14:14Z therik: uff parenscript has it's culprits 2014-06-07T14:15:38Z JuanDaugherty: its 2014-06-07T14:15:54Z therik: its 2014-06-07T14:15:57Z therik: I'm not native speaker 2014-06-07T14:16:25Z JuanDaugherty: right, that's why i advised 2014-06-07T14:16:57Z JuanDaugherty: typical typo for native speakers too though 2014-06-07T14:17:38Z JuanDaugherty: also 'culprit' is a bit awkward 2014-06-07T14:17:41Z therik: it's been a while since someone corrected me :) 2014-06-07T14:18:25Z therik: I'm wrestling weblocks/parenscript/prototype.js 2014-06-07T14:18:34Z therik: it's full of surprises 2014-06-07T14:19:14Z JuanDaugherty forgets why he turned up his nose at weblocks, not maintained iirc 2014-06-07T14:20:12Z JuanDaugherty: cl-http was the first, was happy with it long time 2014-06-07T14:20:35Z JuanDaugherty: but ht now 2014-06-07T14:20:37Z therik: is there something better? 2014-06-07T14:21:05Z JuanDaugherty: not sayin' ht is better, but do think it's most popular at this time 2014-06-07T14:22:04Z therik: hunchentoot? 2014-06-07T14:22:08Z JuanDaugherty: y 2014-06-07T14:22:22Z therik: afaik weblocks is runnning on top of hunchentoot 2014-06-07T14:23:02Z pillton quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T14:23:02Z JuanDaugherty: also using restas 2014-06-07T14:23:14Z therik: I thought hunchen is the underlying http server and weblocks does all the ajax widget updating 2014-06-07T14:24:35Z JuanDaugherty: looks like i'm falling into angularjs for much of the later 2014-06-07T14:25:11Z JuanDaugherty: *latter. As a result of paid work earlier this year. 2014-06-07T14:25:14Z dboswell joined #lisp 2014-06-07T14:25:30Z oleo is now known as Guest90561 2014-06-07T14:26:01Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2014-06-07T14:26:04Z oleo__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-07T14:27:38Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-06-07T14:28:18Z JuanDaugherty: i would say ht is more of a lisp pkg that serves http than a http server such as cl-http 2014-06-07T14:28:52Z Guest90561 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-07T14:29:11Z haxx0r joined #lisp 2014-06-07T14:30:14Z davazp joined #lisp 2014-06-07T14:31:55Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-07T14:32:38Z ufd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T14:32:54Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-07T14:33:51Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-07T14:34:26Z nialo joined #lisp 2014-06-07T14:34:54Z puchacz: JuanDaugherty: if you insist on continuations, you can try ucw. not really maintained but in usable state for years 2014-06-07T14:35:26Z JuanDaugherty: no I don't, another reason I didn't pursue weblocks i guess 2014-06-07T14:35:28Z puchacz: ucw-core, not one of the few forks 2014-06-07T14:36:27Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-07T14:36:33Z therik: why are there so many frameworks in lisp, yet so few are mantained? 2014-06-07T14:36:47Z puchacz: easy to start writing one I guess, and then drop 2014-06-07T14:36:53Z JuanDaugherty: that's lisp generally 2014-06-07T14:37:05Z JuanDaugherty: or any lang with a long history 2014-06-07T14:37:09Z rszeno: no, is human nature 2014-06-07T14:37:58Z JuanDaugherty: stands out more in lisp because it's more often something you still wanna use now 2014-06-07T14:38:07Z JuanDaugherty: same true in prolog 2014-06-07T14:38:21Z puchacz: more technical question, can I capture all values returned by (values ....) when I don't know in advance how many of them? 2014-06-07T14:38:34Z puchacz: (m-v-b (&rest all-values) ? 2014-06-07T14:39:12Z ikki joined #lisp 2014-06-07T14:39:51Z beach: clhs m-v-l 2014-06-07T14:39:51Z specbot: Matches: multiple-value-list, multiple-values-limit. 2014-06-07T14:40:02Z beach: clhs multiple-values-list 2014-06-07T14:40:02Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for multiple-values-list. 2014-06-07T14:40:09Z jdz_: just values-list 2014-06-07T14:40:10Z beach: clhs multiple-value-list 2014-06-07T14:40:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_mult_1.htm 2014-06-07T14:40:14Z puchacz: beach: thanks 2014-06-07T14:40:20Z beach: Sure. 2014-06-07T14:40:27Z jdz_ is now known as jdz 2014-06-07T14:40:36Z beach: Also: 2014-06-07T14:40:38Z beach: clhs m-v-c 2014-06-07T14:40:38Z specbot: multiple-value-call: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_multip.htm 2014-06-07T14:42:30Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-07T14:44:07Z haxx0r: www.anon.fm 2014-06-07T14:45:44Z davazp quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-07T14:46:12Z beach: haxx0r: Please don't just post URLs like that. 2014-06-07T14:49:21Z ikki quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-07T14:50:15Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-06-07T14:51:09Z ufd joined #lisp 2014-06-07T14:52:49Z Alfr joined #lisp 2014-06-07T14:53:01Z eni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T14:53:07Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-06-07T14:54:27Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-07T14:59:12Z Eyes quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-07T14:59:53Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-07T15:02:15Z Eyes joined #lisp 2014-06-07T15:03:44Z beaumont`a quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T15:04:01Z Tenkujin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-07T15:04:52Z Tenkujin joined #lisp 2014-06-07T15:06:01Z zz_karupa quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-07T15:06:01Z tali713 quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-07T15:06:01Z cibs quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-07T15:09:16Z davazp joined #lisp 2014-06-07T15:12:52Z tali713 joined #lisp 2014-06-07T15:12:52Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-07T15:12:56Z zz_karupa joined #lisp 2014-06-07T15:14:02Z zz_karupa is now known as karupa 2014-06-07T15:16:27Z beaumont`a joined #lisp 2014-06-07T15:16:45Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-07T15:16:47Z cibs joined #lisp 2014-06-07T15:18:30Z jtz quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-07T15:18:58Z drmeister: It's possible that I am leaking memory somewhere else. I'm trying to figure out if I can use a library like dmalloc while the Boehm GC is active. 2014-06-07T15:22:26Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-06-07T15:22:53Z jtz joined #lisp 2014-06-07T15:22:53Z jtz quit (Changing host) 2014-06-07T15:22:53Z jtz joined #lisp 2014-06-07T15:23:16Z iley joined #lisp 2014-06-07T15:24:55Z ufd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-07T15:25:03Z Eyes quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-07T15:25:16Z Eyes joined #lisp 2014-06-07T15:26:48Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-07T15:27:01Z BinaryMcAwesome is now known as McAwesome 2014-06-07T15:27:44Z Eyes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T15:27:51Z haxx0r quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-07T15:29:09Z ufd joined #lisp 2014-06-07T15:30:12Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-07T15:30:17Z ufd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-07T15:30:28Z Posterdati quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-07T15:31:11Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-07T15:32:00Z impulse joined #lisp 2014-06-07T15:35:26Z pnpuff quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T15:40:34Z puchacz: I am trying to write a concurrent executor to the following specs 2014-06-07T15:41:05Z puchacz: run many functions that are expected to return the same result, they use different algorithm 2014-06-07T15:41:09Z puchacz: the first one wins 2014-06-07T15:41:21Z McAwesome is now known as High-Q-Brah 2014-06-07T15:41:35Z puchacz: the others are stopped cooperatively, i.e. they are expected to check a shared variable 2014-06-07T15:41:52Z puchacz: and quit by signalling a condition if they lose the race 2014-06-07T15:41:57Z puchacz: my draft is here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142809 2014-06-07T15:41:58Z JuanDaugherty: u no about bordeaux, right? 2014-06-07T15:42:18Z puchacz: I am using bt, yes, but there is no executor like this, is there? 2014-06-07T15:42:26Z puchacz: caveat, the code I pasted does not work 2014-06-07T15:42:28Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-07T15:42:32Z JuanDaugherty: and the sem pkg goes with it, forget its name atm 2014-06-07T15:42:40Z puchacz: ah, great 2014-06-07T15:42:50Z puchacz: it is difficult to write something like this! 2014-06-07T15:43:07Z JuanDaugherty: it's standard programming 2014-06-07T15:43:32Z JuanDaugherty: difficult at first maybe 2014-06-07T15:43:35Z puchacz: well, I made some mistakes in my attempt 2014-06-07T15:44:29Z puchacz: can anybody help please? 2014-06-07T15:44:43Z whimse1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-07T15:45:14Z JuanDaugherty: gotta run an errand, post a pastbin, somebody will help 2014-06-07T15:45:35Z puchacz: I pasted it already 2014-06-07T15:46:00Z chu joined #lisp 2014-06-07T15:46:00Z chu quit (Changing host) 2014-06-07T15:46:00Z chu joined #lisp 2014-06-07T15:49:28Z JuanDaugherty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T15:50:05Z puchacz: I think this might me my first problem: "Local bindings in the the caller of MAKE-THREAD may or may not be shared with the new thread that it creates" 2014-06-07T15:50:27Z puchacz: I bind *continue-other-queries?* in the caller of make-thread 2014-06-07T15:51:49Z iley quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-07T15:53:21Z puchacz: maybe I should use cl-async? 2014-06-07T15:54:16Z orthecreedence joined #lisp 2014-06-07T15:57:01Z kami` joined #lisp 2014-06-07T15:58:10Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-07T15:59:46Z puchacz: cl-async - no; it is a different beast 2014-06-07T16:00:12Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-07T16:01:34Z orthecreedence: ooo cl-async? any questions i can answer? 2014-06-07T16:01:54Z Eyes joined #lisp 2014-06-07T16:02:23Z puchacz: orthecreedence: I don't think cl-async is for me. I wanted to write a mulithreaded executor that runs functions in parallel 2014-06-07T16:02:43Z puchacz: my draft: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142809 2014-06-07T16:02:47Z orthecreedence: probably not =]. you might want to check out lparallel 2014-06-07T16:02:49Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-07T16:02:51Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-07T16:03:03Z puchacz: I think it does not work because I rely on local bindings of a global variable..... 2014-06-07T16:05:08Z puchacz: orthecreedence: I am looking at lparallel homepage now. do you know from the top of your head if it has a utility I am after? 2014-06-07T16:05:21Z puchacz: run many functions, when first one finishes, kill the others 2014-06-07T16:05:34Z orthecreedence: actually i don't think it does 2014-06-07T16:06:23Z orthecreedence: looks like your code should be fine without any external libs 2014-06-07T16:07:07Z orthecreedence: you'd probably eventually want to thread pool it if you're calling it all the time, but otherwise a threading framework might just get in your way 2014-06-07T16:07:31Z puchacz: calling it all the time, yes. 2014-06-07T16:07:41Z puchacz: but why a pool instead of make-thread? is make-thread expensive? 2014-06-07T16:07:54Z JokerDoomWork joined #lisp 2014-06-07T16:07:55Z puchacz: on sbcl / linux 2014-06-07T16:08:14Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-07T16:08:18Z orthecreedence: it's generally expensive anywhere you are 2014-06-07T16:08:42Z puchacz: can I reuse thread pool from lparallel then? 2014-06-07T16:08:44Z orthecreedence: you're asking the operating system to do a whole bunch of stuff that takes a while 2014-06-07T16:09:01Z orthecreedence: actually you might be able to 2014-06-07T16:09:13Z puchacz: any hint what to look for pls? 2014-06-07T16:10:25Z orthecreedence: yeah, let me think really quick 2014-06-07T16:11:29Z vinleod quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-06-07T16:11:34Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-07T16:11:50Z orthecreedence: ok so from my understanding you would basically have the same function you have now (start-racing-queries-with-cursors) 2014-06-07T16:12:08Z orthecreedence: you would still generate in wrapped-functions 2014-06-07T16:12:38Z mr-fooba_ joined #lisp 2014-06-07T16:13:16Z puchacz: ok.... 2014-06-07T16:13:35Z puchacz: (btw, are you cl-async maintainer?) 2014-06-07T16:13:44Z puchacz: (or author?) 2014-06-07T16:13:47Z orthecreedence: insteal of calling bt:make-thread, you would do something like (lparallel:future (funcall wrapped-fn)) for however many threads you spawned 2014-06-07T16:13:51Z orthecreedence: yes i am =] 2014-06-07T16:13:57Z puchacz: :-) 2014-06-07T16:14:42Z mr-foobar quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-07T16:14:48Z puchacz: orthocreedence: so nothing like (start-pool size) ? 2014-06-07T16:14:54Z orthecreedence: i thin everything else would be the same 2014-06-07T16:15:05Z orthecreedence: well yeah you need a "kernel" as it's called 2014-06-07T16:15:15Z orthecreedence: http://lparallel.org/kernel/ 2014-06-07T16:15:20Z puchacz: ok, I will read on "kernel". but, as it is - it does not work 2014-06-07T16:15:33Z orthecreedence: oh your code doesnt work? 2014-06-07T16:15:42Z puchacz: quick (break "") suggests it does not like me manipulating a variable that is global but locally rebound 2014-06-07T16:15:56Z puchacz: see bt docs: "Local bindings in the the caller of MAKE-THREAD may or may not be shared with the new thread that it creates" 2014-06-07T16:16:01Z bhyde joined #lisp 2014-06-07T16:16:20Z orthecreedence: yeah that generally creates a thread-local variable 2014-06-07T16:16:23Z puchacz: http://trac.common-lisp.net/bordeaux-threads/wiki/ApiDocumentation 2014-06-07T16:16:38Z puchacz: so how can I share a variable like this that is NOT global? 2014-06-07T16:16:55Z puchacz: I will start this thing from hunchentoot thread, so I cannot have anything global 2014-06-07T16:17:00Z whimse1 joined #lisp 2014-06-07T16:17:37Z orthecreedence: you cannot share state without a global variable 2014-06-07T16:18:05Z orthecreedence: hang on let me read over it again 2014-06-07T16:18:07Z puchacz: shall I (make-hash-table :synchronized t) as global and keep my markers there? 2014-06-07T16:18:56Z orthecreedence: what's the variable you're having trouble with 2014-06-07T16:18:59Z kami` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-07T16:19:27Z puchacz: I think it did not see me (setf *continue-other-queries?* nil) 2014-06-07T16:19:35Z puchacz: it was still T when I notified 2014-06-07T16:19:52Z puchacz: I mean still T in return-values-or-signal-error 2014-06-07T16:19:59Z puchacz: it did not see my retvals either 2014-06-07T16:20:07Z puchacz: almost certainly 2014-06-07T16:20:22Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-07T16:20:36Z YDJX left #lisp 2014-06-07T16:20:55Z orthecreedence: hmm looking at it, i'm surprised it ever finishes 2014-06-07T16:21:13Z puchacz: schoolboy error you see somewhere ;-) ? 2014-06-07T16:21:25Z orthecreedence: you're holding a lock for the results directly after spawning the threads, all of which also clamor for that results lock 2014-06-07T16:21:49Z puchacz: yes, but if threads are NOT finished directly after startup, I condition-wait 2014-06-07T16:21:55Z puchacz: which releases the lock 2014-06-07T16:22:02Z orthecreedence: so if you get to the bottom form of the function before your threads happen to compute the value, it's going to just sit there 2014-06-07T16:22:04Z orthecreedence: oh does it? 2014-06-07T16:22:11Z orthecreedence: ah 2014-06-07T16:22:12Z puchacz: see bt api doc above 2014-06-07T16:22:22Z orthecreedence: forgot about that 2014-06-07T16:22:33Z puchacz: it is my first time with common lisp threading really, I may do something stupid 2014-06-07T16:22:46Z puchacz: I copy my java intuitions here probably 2014-06-07T16:23:32Z puchacz: (I mean copy intuitions but this one about releasing lock when condition-wait I happened to check) 2014-06-07T16:23:40Z whimse1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-07T16:24:28Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T16:24:40Z orthecreedence: it may be more suble 2014-06-07T16:24:46Z orthecreedence: subtle* 2014-06-07T16:24:58Z orthecreedence: i'm trying to get it running now...what's (with-connection ...)? 2014-06-07T16:25:06Z puchacz: for database, you may drop it 2014-06-07T16:25:11Z orthecreedence: k 2014-06-07T16:26:08Z puchacz: btw, if we work out something usable, feel free to use it as open source :-) 2014-06-07T16:28:50Z orthecreedence: weird, seems to be working for me (CCL/windows) 2014-06-07T16:29:04Z orthecreedence: oh except for a small mode 2014-06-07T16:29:05Z orthecreedence: mod* 2014-06-07T16:29:57Z orthecreedence: (setf retvals (values-list local-retvals)) 2014-06-07T16:30:08Z bhyde: There must be a simpler useful transparent macro other than setf that illustrates confusion this gentleman is suffering from - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/24094927/trying-to-understand-setf-aref-magic 2014-06-07T16:30:10Z orthecreedence: should be (setf retvals local-retvals) 2014-06-07T16:30:12Z hugoduncan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-07T16:30:29Z puchacz: according to bt api docs, sharing of locally bound variables is implementation dependant.... 2014-06-07T16:30:40Z puchacz: so let's assume we cannot use it 2014-06-07T16:30:52Z therik: quickdocs still not working? 2014-06-07T16:30:55Z therik: it has been days 2014-06-07T16:31:01Z stassats: puchacz: bound specials are thread local 2014-06-07T16:31:03Z orthecreedence: well in that case, try your global hash table idea 2014-06-07T16:31:15Z stassats: puchacz: there's just no other way to implement it 2014-06-07T16:31:28Z puchacz: stassats: thanks for confirming from sbcl internals point of view 2014-06-07T16:31:36Z stassats: puchacz: that's all implementations 2014-06-07T16:31:44Z puchacz: so I must use a global variable, haven't I? 2014-06-07T16:31:50Z stassats: for what? 2014-06-07T16:32:02Z puchacz: to tell other threads to gracefully quit 2014-06-07T16:32:19Z orthecreedence: i dont see why actually 2014-06-07T16:32:34Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-06-07T16:32:37Z orthecreedence: you can share state from within lexical variables 2014-06-07T16:32:44Z stassats: puchacz: yes, but it has to have no bindings 2014-06-07T16:32:49Z stassats: and beware memory ordering issues 2014-06-07T16:33:05Z puchacz: what memory ordering issues? 2014-06-07T16:33:24Z stassats: another thread may not see your changes right away 2014-06-07T16:33:44Z stassats: and it can be reordered to happen after other memory operations 2014-06-07T16:33:54Z puchacz: I was expecting so, in java you mark a variable as volatile if you want it to be immediate. and here? 2014-06-07T16:34:15Z stassats: sadly, nothing like that 2014-06-07T16:34:24Z puchacz: ok, but it will eventually become seen 2014-06-07T16:34:27Z stassats: if you use a condition variable, it probably does it for you 2014-06-07T16:34:27Z puchacz: correct? 2014-06-07T16:34:52Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-07T16:35:39Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2014-06-07T16:35:41Z puchacz: I don't think I can use condition variable for non-blocking check every iteration: shall my thread continue iterating or quit? 2014-06-07T16:36:13Z stassats: sbcl has a timeout parameter, though bordeaux-threads doesn't expose it 2014-06-07T16:36:48Z stassats: but, it's in seconds 2014-06-07T16:36:57Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-07T16:37:05Z puchacz: timeout for what? 2014-06-07T16:37:13Z puchacz: and I can stick to sbcl-only api, no problem 2014-06-07T16:37:21Z stassats: for condition-wait 2014-06-07T16:37:26Z stassats: if you stick to sbcl only, there's sb-thread:barrier 2014-06-07T16:37:42Z puchacz: I will have a look at the barrier 2014-06-07T16:37:50Z puchacz: but still I need to tell other threads to stop churning 2014-06-07T16:37:54Z puchacz: and quit asap 2014-06-07T16:38:03Z puchacz: stassats: my original problem is as follows 2014-06-07T16:38:15Z puchacz: run few functions in parallel, first one that finishes wins 2014-06-07T16:38:19Z puchacz: the others are to be discarded 2014-06-07T16:38:27Z puchacz: they calculate the same thing, but with different algorithm 2014-06-07T16:38:37Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-06-07T16:38:51Z stassats: a write to a global variable with a barrier should work 2014-06-07T16:39:23Z puchacz: and if I have many instances of problems like this? can I hold (make-hash-table :synchronized t) in the global variable 2014-06-07T16:39:24Z puchacz: ? 2014-06-07T16:39:34Z puchacz: you see, I will start these computations from hunchentoot threads 2014-06-07T16:39:37Z stassats: that would be slow 2014-06-07T16:39:58Z orthecreedence: https://gist.github.com/orthecreedence/10779bc083d915d19b04 2014-06-07T16:40:06Z orthecreedence: puchacz: try that 2014-06-07T16:40:25Z orthecreedence: keep in mind theres no error handling or anyting, but see if it works for you 2014-06-07T16:40:40Z puchacz: stassats: ok, I can limit myself to maximum N "workers", so I will use regular list instead of synced hashtable. how about that? 2014-06-07T16:40:53Z puchacz: orthecreedence: checking 2014-06-07T16:41:46Z puchacz: orthecreedence: it did not return from repl. 2014-06-07T16:41:59Z stassats: what you can do is to have a cons cell inside a local variable 2014-06-07T16:42:00Z orthecreedence: hmm 2014-06-07T16:42:27Z puchacz: stassats: will it force the contents of the cell to be heap allocated, ie. global? 2014-06-07T16:42:32Z orthecreedence: brb, checking sbcl 2014-06-07T16:42:45Z stassats: puchacz: conses are heap allocated 2014-06-07T16:42:57Z puchacz: orthecreedence: to be specific, it is 64 bit linux and 64 bit sbcl 2014-06-07T16:42:58Z stassats: and just collect those cells when creating threads 2014-06-07T16:43:17Z puchacz: stassats: was it your intention? to force heap allocation? 2014-06-07T16:43:25Z puchacz: to make it "look" like global? 2014-06-07T16:43:55Z stassats: the kind of allocation doesn't matter 2014-06-07T16:44:08Z puchacz: so what is your intention exactly? 2014-06-07T16:44:21Z puchacz: I would like to understand the mechanics 2014-06-07T16:44:27Z stassats: the intention is for each thread have a separate memory location for a STOP value, instead of iterating over a list or a hashtable 2014-06-07T16:44:56Z puchacz: and keeping the memory location separate, but *pointed* from local variable is ok? 2014-06-07T16:44:56Z stassats: when you stop, you put a stop sentinel in a car of each collected cons cell 2014-06-07T16:45:18Z stassats: puchacz: where it's pointed from doesn't matter 2014-06-07T16:45:22Z puchacz: ok 2014-06-07T16:45:24Z stassats: you can pass it around, you can bind it 2014-06-07T16:45:46Z puchacz: so, each hunchetoot thread creates a cons 2014-06-07T16:45:59Z stassats: an easy way is to interrupt the thread, but unless you are running with safepoints and sb-thruption, it may be unsafe 2014-06-07T16:46:24Z puchacz: car of this cons is shared between racing threads and I use a barrier to force memory refresh 2014-06-07T16:46:43Z puchacz: but cons is created for each hunchetoot request 2014-06-07T16:47:01Z stassats: if you want to stop all threads at the same time, then you just need a single cons indeed 2014-06-07T16:47:18Z stassats: for a group of threads 2014-06-07T16:47:23Z puchacz: yes, all threads that originated from a specific hunchetoot request 2014-06-07T16:47:45Z pnpuff quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T16:48:07Z puchacz: also, orthecreedence suggested I use "kernel" from lparallel library to keep a thread pool instead of make-thread each time I need one 2014-06-07T16:48:19Z puchacz: do you agree stassats? 2014-06-07T16:48:39Z stassats: if that's what you need 2014-06-07T16:48:54Z puchacz: only if make-thread is expensive 2014-06-07T16:48:56Z doomlord_1 quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-07T16:49:13Z stassats: cost is relative 2014-06-07T16:49:20Z puchacz: right 2014-06-07T16:50:20Z puchacz: expensive to start 5 extra threads per request in comparison to database queries over socket (fast, so say db is all cached etc) and whole http shebang from hunchetoot 2014-06-07T16:50:54Z puchacz: is it? 2014-06-07T16:51:19Z stassats: (time (sb-thread:join-thread(sb-thread:make-thread (lambda ())))) => 378,545 processor cycles 2014-06-07T16:53:08Z phax left #lisp 2014-06-07T16:56:04Z puchacz: stassats: ok, I have my answer. I don't need a pool just yet 2014-06-07T16:57:01Z puchacz: and can't imagine needing it in this context tbh :-) 2014-06-07T16:58:32Z orthecreedence: puchacz: try this: https://gist.github.com/orthecreedence/10779bc083d915d19b04 2014-06-07T16:58:38Z orthecreedence: updated version, more debugging 2014-06-07T16:59:21Z puchacz: it came back 2014-06-07T16:59:35Z orthecreedence: the result? 2014-06-07T16:59:40Z puchacz: nil 2014-06-07T16:59:45Z puchacz: it printed res:111 2014-06-07T16:59:50Z puchacz: but returned NIL 2014-06-07T16:59:57Z orthecreedence: yeah that's fine 2014-06-07T17:00:16Z orthecreedence: res: X (where X is the return value from the function) 2014-06-07T17:00:31Z puchacz: I will grab your version and follow stassats' advice to share everything in a car of cons 2014-06-07T17:01:07Z orthecreedence: what are you sharing? sorry i missed a lot 2014-06-07T17:01:41Z puchacz: priv, let's not litter here 2014-06-07T17:03:16Z orthecreedence: ah 2014-06-07T17:03:27Z orthecreedence: so with my version, i dont think you need any global state 2014-06-07T17:03:47Z orthecreedence: all sharing is done in the context of the closure(s) around the let* at the top 2014-06-07T17:04:08Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-07T17:04:13Z puchacz: well, you are setfing retvals 2014-06-07T17:04:36Z orthecreedence: if you want to kill your threads, then at the bottom you do (dolist (thread threads) (when (bt:thread-active-p thread) (bt:destroy-thread thread)))) 2014-06-07T17:04:49Z stassats: destroy-thread is not safe 2014-06-07T17:05:01Z orthecreedence: true 2014-06-07T17:05:23Z stassats: especially when foreign code is involved 2014-06-07T17:05:34Z orthecreedence: fair enough 2014-06-07T17:05:34Z puchacz: stassats, one more thing: (let ((x (cons 3 2))) ....) x is local, but (setf (car x) 7) is global? 2014-06-07T17:06:12Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-07T17:06:23Z orthecreedence: you're allowed to setf retvals from a thread (assuming it's locked) 2014-06-07T17:06:44Z stassats: puchacz: you want to share a memory location, how you do it doesn't matter 2014-06-07T17:06:50Z c74d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-07T17:06:52Z stassats: you can use closures, passed values, special variables 2014-06-07T17:07:01Z orthecreedence: it's not a special variable, so not thread-local 2014-06-07T17:07:41Z puchacz: stassats: special variables do not work, as we discussed. if I have (defvar *x*) and then (let ((*x* my-value)) (make-thread (lambda () (setf *x* ---- does not work 2014-06-07T17:07:43Z orthecreedence: in my example `retvals` is a shared state between all the threads it's not thread-local) 2014-06-07T17:07:46Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-07T17:08:04Z stassats: puchacz: special variables do work if my-value is, say, a cons 2014-06-07T17:08:20Z stassats: a cons shared with the parent thread and a child thread 2014-06-07T17:08:37Z puchacz: stassats: but then I am not allowed to change *x*, but (car *x*) or (cdr *x*), correct? 2014-06-07T17:08:55Z stassats: allowed, but it wouldn't work, correct 2014-06-07T17:08:58Z KCL_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T17:09:15Z puchacz: stassats: I think I finally got the whole picture :-) enough to get me coding 2014-06-07T17:09:22Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-07T17:09:36Z c74d joined #lisp 2014-06-07T17:09:38Z puchacz: pass specials, but do not change. change object internals though is fine 2014-06-07T17:09:54Z puchacz: and use memory barrier :-) 2014-06-07T17:10:14Z puchacz: orthecreedence: thanks as well! 2014-06-07T17:10:48Z orthecreedence: no problem 2014-06-07T17:10:54Z orthecreedence: have fun =] 2014-06-07T17:11:08Z puchacz: thx. multithreading is notoriously difficult 2014-06-07T17:11:14Z puchacz: at least for me 2014-06-07T17:11:27Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-07T17:13:03Z orthecreedence: yeah plus you have to deal with environment weirdness in lisp, which i still struggle with 2014-06-07T17:13:16Z orthecreedence: but with that weirdness comes awesome power 2014-06-07T17:13:19Z stassats: you can probably use mutexes, have a locked mutex, try to acquire it without waiting, if the acquisition succeeded, then shutdown the thread 2014-06-07T17:13:46Z stassats: but i'm not well versed in the common multithreaded algorithms, there should be something available 2014-06-07T17:14:58Z puchacz: btw, stassats: sharing a mutable value via closures and surrounding (let ((x my-value)) (make-thread (lambda () (setf x 'foo) .... if x is NOT global - this setf will work, won't it? 2014-06-07T17:15:18Z stassats: a closure will work too 2014-06-07T17:15:18Z puchacz: it is only if x is also a global variable, I need to introduce cons 2014-06-07T17:15:30Z puchacz: or whatever else as an indirection 2014-06-07T17:16:09Z puchacz: so, orthecreedence's setfing retvals is fine then 2014-06-07T17:16:45Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2014-06-07T17:18:00Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T17:34:37Z KCL_ joined #lisp 2014-06-07T17:34:41Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2014-06-07T17:34:58Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T17:35:29Z eMBee quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-07T17:35:38Z eMBee joined #lisp 2014-06-07T17:35:48Z Eyes quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-07T17:36:21Z Eyes joined #lisp 2014-06-07T17:37:30Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-06-07T17:39:43Z Eyes quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-07T17:40:13Z Eyes joined #lisp 2014-06-07T17:42:17Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-07T17:43:22Z theos joined #lisp 2014-06-07T17:43:36Z orthecreedence quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-07T17:47:22Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-07T17:50:29Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-07T17:50:35Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-06-07T17:52:52Z rk[1]: would someone mind helping me understand the following results? 2014-06-07T17:52:54Z rk[1]: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142810 2014-06-07T17:57:02Z stassats: 2nd is not defined as a setf function 2014-06-07T17:57:08Z ggole: setf-methods need to be defined, they don't just appear 2014-06-07T17:57:08Z stassats: or a setf expander 2014-06-07T17:58:02Z pnpuff` joined #lisp 2014-06-07T17:58:04Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-07T18:00:50Z noncom|2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-07T18:01:07Z pnpuff quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-07T18:02:03Z noncom|2 joined #lisp 2014-06-07T18:03:19Z nvmme quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-07T18:05:39Z rk[1]: ggole: oh i see. 2014-06-07T18:06:28Z rk[1]: i thought setf was magic 2014-06-07T18:06:30Z rk[1]: :( 2014-06-07T18:06:35Z jdz: it is 2014-06-07T18:06:56Z rk[1]: well, how do i conjure custom spells? 2014-06-07T18:07:02Z jdz: you can define your own setf functions 2014-06-07T18:07:09Z jdz: you learn stuff 2014-06-07T18:07:10Z rk[1]: link to docs? 2014-06-07T18:07:14Z stassats: clhs defun 2014-06-07T18:07:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defun.htm 2014-06-07T18:07:16Z stassats: clhs d-s-e 2014-06-07T18:07:16Z specbot: define-setf-expander: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_3.htm 2014-06-07T18:07:21Z stassats: clhs d-m-m 2014-06-07T18:07:21Z specbot: define-modify-macro: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_2.htm 2014-06-07T18:07:32Z stassats: clhs defsetf 2014-06-07T18:07:32Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defset.htm 2014-06-07T18:08:15Z JokerDoomWork quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-07T18:08:24Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-07T18:09:30Z therik quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T18:13:13Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-07T18:13:23Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-07T18:15:26Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-07T18:18:26Z puchacz: stassats: shall I use (sb-thread:barrier (:memory) ...) for modifying anything that is shared? 2014-06-07T18:18:32Z puchacz: or reading it? 2014-06-07T18:19:31Z puchacz: shared between threads 2014-06-07T18:19:48Z stassats: i'm not sure here, read up on memory barriers 2014-06-07T18:19:59Z puchacz: ok, nw 2014-06-07T18:20:36Z stassats: memory barriers everywhere is safe, but it may make things unnecessary slow 2014-06-07T18:20:54Z stassats: and on x86oids most barriers are no-ops, so testing this isn't easy 2014-06-07T18:21:06Z stassats: which means you have to have a good understanding 2014-06-07T18:23:32Z zwer quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-07T18:24:11Z SunDwarf joined #lisp 2014-06-07T18:24:17Z fantazo joined #lisp 2014-06-07T18:24:20Z JokerDoomWork joined #lisp 2014-06-07T18:26:09Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-07T18:26:37Z Eyes quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-07T18:28:56Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-07T18:32:17Z beaumont`a quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-07T18:33:37Z aftershave quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-07T18:34:52Z beaumont`a joined #lisp 2014-06-07T18:35:49Z SunDwarf is now known as Eyes 2014-06-07T18:36:25Z effy: i'm reading PAIP and at some point in the debugging section it presents (step (+ 3 4 (* 5 6 (/ 7 8)))) which is supposed to step through each step of the calculation, i'm using sbcl last version on amd64 through slime and it just does nothing, only return 133/4 has this feature been dropped since the book has been published ? 2014-06-07T18:36:39Z tesuji joined #lisp 2014-06-07T18:37:09Z Bike: what step actually does is impl-defined, and i don't think sbcl really does anything 2014-06-07T18:38:30Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-07T18:38:36Z Bike: you could define a function and use TRACE 2014-06-07T18:39:07Z Bike: or you could use pjb's thing, i don't know how it is https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/source/2b53ae44e8fa4d040fafcf4d93976500a8e464dc:common-lisp/lisp 2014-06-07T18:39:28Z puchacz: effy: I don't think stepper works reliably in sbcl 2014-06-07T18:39:37Z puchacz: you may want to try lispworks personal for it 2014-06-07T18:40:08Z puchacz: not free software, but price zero for personal edition 2014-06-07T18:40:54Z effy: i was mainly curious to know if i messed up something with my installation i figured out that 20 years after the book was published all implementation would be on the same ground :) 2014-06-07T18:41:31Z Bike: nah, your install's find. stepping just isn't a common debug pattern. 2014-06-07T18:41:32Z puchacz: nope, the only implementation that has reliable stepper and graphical debugger I know of is lispworks 2014-06-07T18:41:39Z Bike: fine* 2014-06-07T18:43:54Z effy: i got another question if you allow me, in the same chapter norvig explain how (assert ...) and a few other functions ccase cerror .. can give back a prompt and allow to provide new values by hand and be restarted, is that really a thing ? 2014-06-07T18:44:07Z Bike: sure. 2014-06-07T18:44:22Z effy: i mean i dont really see a case where a devlopper would like to idle in front of the console to see if production crash to provide a value by hand 2014-06-07T18:44:30Z effy: is there a pattern of use i am missing with that ? 2014-06-07T18:44:59Z stassats: a) remote access 2014-06-07T18:45:06Z Bike: well, for one, new values can be provided by other parts of the program, rather than an operator 2014-06-07T18:45:17Z puchacz: you may recover from something that is blocking your precious server without restarting it and annoying users 2014-06-07T18:46:37Z effy: Bike: i thought it was returning a prompt as in a REPL, but anyway if you can provide the value with your program then why not really handle the error in the first place instead of giving back a "REPL" 2014-06-07T18:46:40Z p_l: ... I once had a mad few days where I sat by the console of a freshly hacked together application and monitored it directly 2014-06-07T18:47:21Z p_l: there were few times where it was all "ok, everyone, save your data and stop adding new, we are cycling database upgrade" 2014-06-07T18:47:28Z Bike: effy: "really handling" is what i mean. the interface for letting an operator and for letting a different part of the program provide a value (or whatever restart) is the same at the point of causing the error 2014-06-07T18:47:28Z beach left #lisp 2014-06-07T18:47:34Z jdz: effy: you can interact with your debugger through email if you want to 2014-06-07T18:47:41Z effy: puchacz: wouldn't your server hang there frozen until you provide a new value anyway ? i have the feeling that as long as you dont provide a correct new value your server is ad good as dead, no ? 2014-06-07T18:48:05Z puchacz: effy: I don't know really, it can be just blocking some resources 2014-06-07T18:48:20Z puchacz: you may tinker with it and recover rather than bounce it 2014-06-07T18:49:00Z jdz: effy: also, you can have the interactive parts enabled only when somebody's nearby, otherwise handle automatically 2014-06-07T18:49:54Z mooglenorph joined #lisp 2014-06-07T18:50:41Z effy: ok i see there is a lot of interest for the features so it must be useful, but i still dont really get the basic use case, p_l in your case how does assert helped you hotswapping the database ? 2014-06-07T18:51:10Z Bike: it's not only assert. 2014-06-07T18:51:26Z p_l: effy: it wasn't asserts, I was sitting there looking at queries live >_> 2014-06-07T18:51:27Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2014-06-07T18:51:35Z effy: did you just let everyone thread "freez" then swapped and for each thread restarted it by hand ? 2014-06-07T18:51:42Z p_l: then someone would come in and go all "we need an extra field to store X" 2014-06-07T18:51:43Z tajjada joined #lisp 2014-06-07T18:52:20Z p_l had one window with the code and another with runtime log and another with database... and all the users in the room 2014-06-07T18:52:31Z p_l: it was *hacky*. Lisp would have helped back then 2014-06-07T18:53:34Z effy: comming from programming language where i never had the chance to hot-swap code it seems prety magical and exciting 2014-06-07T18:54:04Z puchacz: oh, my 2014-06-07T18:54:05Z orthecreedence joined #lisp 2014-06-07T18:54:11Z puchacz: these concurrency problems: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142814 2014-06-07T18:54:22Z puchacz: when I run this: (run-racing-queries nil (lambda () (+ 3 2)) (lambda () (+ 1 6))) 2014-06-07T18:54:40Z puchacz: I am getting: The variable *CONTINUE-OTHER-QUERIES?-LOCATIVE* is unbound. 2014-06-07T18:54:45Z puchacz: reported from both threads 2014-06-07T18:54:57Z puchacz: it fails on first format, before memory barrier 2014-06-07T18:55:51Z puchacz: can anybody help please? 2014-06-07T18:55:56Z puchacz: I think I did what stassats suggested 2014-06-07T18:57:43Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-07T18:58:49Z puchacz: actually it fails on this: (car *continue-other-queries?-locative*) 2014-06-07T18:59:40Z |3b|: is that in ccl? 2014-06-07T18:59:46Z puchacz: no, sbcl 2014-06-07T18:59:57Z puchacz: in other systems I only care that it somehow works 2014-06-07T19:00:16Z puchacz: I only occasionally debug in other systems 2014-06-07T19:01:03Z |3b|: is that variable special as suggested by the **? 2014-06-07T19:01:07Z puchacz: y 2014-06-07T19:01:41Z |3b|: i don't think other threads will see that binding then, only any global binding or bindings within the other thread 2014-06-07T19:02:19Z |3b|: i think bt:make-thread has an option to bind specials in the new thread which might do want you want relatively easily 2014-06-07T19:02:21Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-07T19:02:33Z |3b|: or you could close over a lexical variable instead of using a special 2014-06-07T19:02:35Z stassats: you either need to make it a closure or bind it to the cons inside the thread 2014-06-07T19:09:46Z malice joined #lisp 2014-06-07T19:12:03Z puchacz: stassats: didn't I create a closure in mapcar? 2014-06-07T19:14:10Z puchacz: where I wrap functions 2014-06-07T19:14:14Z puchacz: ah 2014-06-07T19:14:17Z puchacz: I see what you mean 2014-06-07T19:14:27Z Neptu quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-07T19:17:02Z Neptu joined #lisp 2014-06-07T19:17:40Z Sir_herrbatka: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131394/postmortem_naughty_dogs_jak_and_.php?print=1 2014-06-07T19:17:59Z Sir_herrbatka: there is a part about lisp there 2014-06-07T19:18:03Z Sir_herrbatka: interesting 2014-06-07T19:19:04Z pnpuff` left #lisp 2014-06-07T19:20:05Z Xach: One of the main guys implementing that has an active blog. 2014-06-07T19:20:18Z Xach: It's clear he's a very, very, very talented dude. 2014-06-07T19:20:32Z Xach: He's moved far on from programming and video game stuff though. 2014-06-07T19:21:38Z Sir_herrbatka: Xach: care to share a link? 2014-06-07T19:21:50Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: the consequences are unspecified) 2014-06-07T19:22:29Z Xach: I forgot his name. I'll look it up. 2014-06-07T19:22:44Z Xach: I got a little bored with it because 50% of the content is his reviews of ultra-high-end dining experiences in los angeles. 2014-06-07T19:23:11Z Xach: Maybe it's different now -- the url is http://all-things-andy-gavin.com/ 2014-06-07T19:25:03Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2014-06-07T19:26:08Z Sir_herrbatka: Xach: thanks 2014-06-07T19:26:55Z Sir_herrbatka: not a lot about programming 2014-06-07T19:31:12Z Xach: There is quite a bit but you have to dig. 2014-06-07T19:33:20Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T19:36:37Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-06-07T19:38:07Z Sir_herrbatka: who wants to take a look at my code? 2014-06-07T19:38:23Z Sir_herrbatka: (danger, noobish code ahead) 2014-06-07T19:38:27Z Xach: I want to look at it. 2014-06-07T19:39:07Z nialo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-07T19:39:36Z |3b| likes to look at code, but doesn't like to agree to do so in advance 2014-06-07T19:40:30Z Sir_herrbatka: just one function 2014-06-07T19:40:32Z Sir_herrbatka: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142815 2014-06-07T19:41:06Z Sir_herrbatka: |3b|: sorry, stupid move to be sure 2014-06-07T19:41:24Z Bike: could use a let* probably 2014-06-07T19:41:39Z Sir_herrbatka: anyway, i still do silly electronic alghorithms in lisp 2014-06-07T19:42:03Z Sir_herrbatka: Bike: first time i see let* tbh 2014-06-07T19:42:12Z nialo joined #lisp 2014-06-07T19:42:20Z puchacz: stassats and orthecreedence: thanks guys, I think it finally works and it does not do anything offensively slow, like hash lookup on every continue-p check 2014-06-07T19:42:47Z orthecreedence: glad to hear it, and happy to help 2014-06-07T19:43:37Z puchacz: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142816 if you want to see :-) 2014-06-07T19:44:13Z puchacz: I use a global hashtable but rewrite the value immediately after creating a thread to a new variable 2014-06-07T19:44:20Z Sir_herrbatka: Bike: yes, let* sounds like a good idea 2014-06-07T19:44:27Z Sir_herrbatka: thanks for pointing it out 2014-06-07T19:44:36Z Sir_herrbatka: i didn't knew about it 2014-06-07T19:46:12Z puchacz: also, the difference between sbcl and non-sbcl is that I use memory barriers in sbcl, which is my primary environment 2014-06-07T19:46:46Z stassats: do you plan on running on ppc or arm? 2014-06-07T19:47:01Z puchacz: stassats: I don't know what provider will have 2014-06-07T19:47:06Z stassats: if all you use is x86, you can forget about memory barriers 2014-06-07T19:47:29Z stassats: (until you need to remember them) 2014-06-07T19:47:34Z puchacz: stassats: I'd rather not :-) 2014-06-07T19:47:54Z puchacz: I have had enough headache in parallelism in my "day job" in java 2014-06-07T19:48:00Z puchacz: so barriers are to stay 2014-06-07T19:51:00Z nipra1 joined #lisp 2014-06-07T19:52:03Z drmeister: The parenthesis highlighting on paste.lisp.org is very nice. Is there a mode like that for emacs? http://paste.lisp.org/display/142815 2014-06-07T19:52:48Z Bike: show-paren-mode? 2014-06-07T19:52:58Z nipra quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T19:53:22Z drmeister: With the coloring as the mouse moves over the parentheses. 2014-06-07T19:53:59Z drmeister: My show-paren-mode only shows the parenthesis matching for where the cursor is. 2014-06-07T19:54:26Z Alfr: drmeister, http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/HighlightParentheses maybe? 2014-06-07T19:54:37Z dbushenko joined #lisp 2014-06-07T19:55:07Z Shinmera quit (Quit: brb) 2014-06-07T19:55:23Z drmeister: I've spent the whole morning getting the dmalloc library installed in my code to track down my memory leak. It appears to work without major conflict with the Boehm GC. 2014-06-07T19:55:35Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-07T19:55:38Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-07T19:56:38Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-07T19:57:55Z zeroish joined #lisp 2014-06-07T20:00:53Z interlocutor quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-07T20:01:21Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-07T20:01:22Z Eyes is now known as Eyess 2014-06-07T20:01:43Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-07T20:02:22Z orthecreedence quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-07T20:02:32Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-06-07T20:07:08Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-06-07T20:13:08Z kpreid quit (Quit: Quitting) 2014-06-07T20:22:43Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-07T20:29:28Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-07T20:31:49Z _schulte_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-07T20:32:37Z Sir_herrbatka: drmeister: hm, you got memory leak in lisp? 2014-06-07T20:32:39Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-07T20:33:28Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T20:33:43Z bocaneri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-07T20:33:55Z tajjada quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T20:34:01Z stassats: drmeister: but did you track it down? 2014-06-07T20:34:38Z stassats: i tracked down an SBCL memory corruption by buying a new cpu cooler 2014-06-07T20:36:03Z Sir_herrbatka: stassats: is it faulty implementation or actually programmers fault? 2014-06-07T20:36:29Z Sir_herrbatka was operating on assumption that lisp implementations have a very good GC 2014-06-07T20:38:18Z stassats: Sir_herrbatka: it's both 2014-06-07T20:38:40Z stassats: not all gc are good, with the best gc you can leak memory 2014-06-07T20:38:49Z Sir_herrbatka: hmmmm 2014-06-07T20:40:26Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-07T20:43:10Z prxq: no gc can work around programmer error. 2014-06-07T20:43:32Z prxq: if you hold a ref to a list that grows accidentally - that's a memory leak 2014-06-07T20:44:52Z prxq: if you add finalizers to objects but don't make sure the finalizers do not close over references to these objects, the objects will never be GCd. 2014-06-07T20:45:14Z prxq: etc. 2014-06-07T20:45:37Z Sir_herrbatka: dunno 2014-06-07T20:45:52Z Sir_herrbatka: i'm from C++ so GC are bit alien to me 2014-06-07T20:46:42Z prxq: normally (i.e. the VAST majority of cases) gc's just work. 2014-06-07T20:46:56Z jdz: GC only collets unreachable stuff; if you hold references, GC cannot help 2014-06-07T20:47:22Z stassats: an omniscient GC can 2014-06-07T20:47:38Z prxq: I presume drmeister has some bug somewhere that inadvertently creates references to objects 2014-06-07T20:47:45Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T20:47:46Z prxq: stassats: indeed 2014-06-07T20:48:05Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-06-07T20:48:57Z prxq: Sir_herrbatka: actual GC problems are very rare. 2014-06-07T20:49:10Z Sir_herrbatka: i hope so… 2014-06-07T20:49:14Z stassats: rare problems are the worst 2014-06-07T20:49:57Z prxq: that's a too general statement 2014-06-07T20:50:11Z ggole quit 2014-06-07T20:50:51Z prxq: You will have much more memory leak problems without gc. Orders of magnitude more. 2014-06-07T20:51:03Z Sir_herrbatka: i know 2014-06-07T20:51:22Z Sir_herrbatka: -_-' 2014-06-07T20:59:03Z Sir_herrbatka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-07T21:03:44Z tesuji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T21:04:16Z puchacz: can I catch signalled condition (as object), save it somewhere and resignal? 2014-06-07T21:04:31Z puchacz: I would like to pass some signals from subordinate thread 2014-06-07T21:04:57Z stassats: lparallel has error handling like that 2014-06-07T21:05:09Z puchacz: great 2014-06-07T21:05:20Z puchacz: is lparallel stable? 2014-06-07T21:05:35Z H4ns: yes 2014-06-07T21:05:42Z puchacz: great again 2014-06-07T21:05:43Z puchacz: thx 2014-06-07T21:08:21Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T21:09:38Z ski_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T21:09:58Z Soft quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T21:10:18Z johs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-07T21:10:39Z ski joined #lisp 2014-06-07T21:11:15Z johs joined #lisp 2014-06-07T21:13:00Z innertracks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T21:13:05Z Soft joined #lisp 2014-06-07T21:13:47Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2014-06-07T21:15:09Z interlocutor joined #lisp 2014-06-07T21:18:16Z drmeister: I have not yet tracked down my memory leak problem. I'm pretty sure it's not the Boehm GC because after my program runs for 5 hours Boehm reports using ~2GB of heap but OS X Activity Monitor reports 30GB of heap are being used by the process. 2014-06-07T21:18:37Z drmeister: I've spent the morning incorporating the "dmalloc" library and I'm trying to get everything working at the same time. 2014-06-07T21:21:33Z drmeister: I've also added helpful lisp functions like SYS:MALLOC-AND-DONT-FREE and SYS:MALLOC-AND-FREE-IT-TWICE to test dmalloc 2014-06-07T21:22:18Z drmeister: For some reason those functions never made it into the CL standard. 2014-06-07T21:22:54Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-07T21:26:57Z Rptx joined #lisp 2014-06-07T21:30:24Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-06-07T21:31:27Z Shinmera: Why would any memory allocation function be in the standard. 2014-06-07T21:39:12Z Bike: it was a joke, yo 2014-06-07T21:39:32Z ered quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T21:42:25Z dbushenko quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T21:43:00Z monod quit (Quit: Quit) 2014-06-07T21:43:39Z monod joined #lisp 2014-06-07T21:44:14Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T21:44:27Z ered joined #lisp 2014-06-07T21:44:52Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-07T21:47:38Z mooglenorph quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-07T21:49:22Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-07T21:51:58Z foreignFunction quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-07T21:57:02Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2014-06-07T22:00:55Z malice quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-07T22:10:38Z JokerDoomWork quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-07T22:13:09Z JokerDoomWork joined #lisp 2014-06-07T22:16:00Z pnpuff quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T22:20:15Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T22:21:54Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T22:22:19Z zenyfish` left #lisp 2014-06-07T22:23:32Z _schulte_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-07T22:24:30Z kpreid joined #lisp 2014-06-07T22:25:25Z nvmme joined #lisp 2014-06-07T22:25:35Z Code_Man` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-07T22:25:42Z monod quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T22:27:45Z ehaliewicz joined #lisp 2014-06-07T22:31:55Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-07T22:33:06Z nvmme quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-07T22:34:57Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-07T22:41:33Z Hydan quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-07T22:41:42Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-07T22:45:55Z nug700 joined #lisp 2014-06-07T22:50:31Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-07T22:53:31Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-06-07T22:56:12Z Patzy quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-07T22:56:22Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-06-07T23:00:40Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-07T23:00:51Z nvmme joined #lisp 2014-06-07T23:02:00Z nvmme quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-07T23:02:28Z araujo joined #lisp 2014-06-07T23:07:17Z mr-fooba_ quit 2014-06-07T23:07:24Z nvmme joined #lisp 2014-06-07T23:10:36Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-07T23:12:09Z nvmme quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-07T23:14:34Z Shinmera quit (Quit: ZzzZz) 2014-06-07T23:16:39Z nvmme joined #lisp 2014-06-07T23:21:23Z nvmme quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-07T23:24:40Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2014-06-07T23:33:05Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-07T23:35:50Z nvmme joined #lisp 2014-06-07T23:36:01Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-07T23:37:21Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-07T23:40:16Z nvmme quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-07T23:42:41Z nvmme joined #lisp 2014-06-07T23:45:50Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-06-07T23:47:25Z nvmme quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-07T23:48:39Z nvmme joined #lisp 2014-06-07T23:53:24Z nvmme quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-07T23:59:50Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-08T00:02:47Z MouldyOldBones quit (Quit: MouldyOldBones) 2014-06-08T00:03:01Z jxv joined #lisp 2014-06-08T00:05:53Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-08T00:07:05Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-08T00:10:45Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-08T00:15:20Z gigetoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-08T00:16:16Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2014-06-08T00:18:11Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-08T00:18:40Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2014-06-08T00:24:15Z doomlord_1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-08T00:24:56Z _schulte_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T00:25:59Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-08T00:27:21Z chu joined #lisp 2014-06-08T00:28:24Z ufd joined #lisp 2014-06-08T00:31:02Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-08T00:31:43Z aeth joined #lisp 2014-06-08T00:32:52Z jxv quit (Quit: QUIT) 2014-06-08T00:34:23Z Corvidium joined #lisp 2014-06-08T00:34:49Z Corvidium: Hello 2014-06-08T00:34:57Z Corvidium: Has anyone here tried to run the CADR emulator? 2014-06-08T00:36:19Z Guest57584 joined #lisp 2014-06-08T00:37:41Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2014-06-08T00:44:05Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-08T00:56:09Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-08T00:59:53Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-08T01:01:04Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-08T01:01:31Z pjb: Corvidium: have you tried? 2014-06-08T01:03:53Z Vivitron` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-08T01:04:11Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-08T01:06:43Z boogie joined #lisp 2014-06-08T01:11:31Z boogie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-08T01:12:53Z Pullphinger joined #lisp 2014-06-08T01:21:25Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-08T01:23:14Z kpal joined #lisp 2014-06-08T01:23:57Z drmeister: What does virtual memory mean on OS X? This may sound like a stupid question but someone on the Boehm mailing list is telling me that I don't need to worry about my process consuming 30GB of virtual memory on OS X after running 5 hours. That virtual memory is "free". 2014-06-08T01:24:57Z Bike: i think that means it's given to the process by your OS, but not actually used 2014-06-08T01:25:07Z Bike: like how on linux sbcl has like 500 MB of memory all the time\ 2014-06-08T01:25:53Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-08T01:28:53Z |3b|: yeah, if it is just address space and not actually in use that might not be a problem 2014-06-08T01:31:18Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-08T01:32:44Z JuanDaugherty checks a running image he has in production at aws 2014-06-08T01:34:23Z JuanDaugherty: 2053 admin 20 0 1067m 118m 22m S 0.0 7.1 0:13.00 sbcl 2014-06-08T01:37:25Z kpal quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-08T01:56:49Z varjag_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-06-08T01:57:15Z drmeister: Hmmm, I'm starting to think the virtual memory of 30GB after 5 hours might be a red herring. 2014-06-08T01:57:17Z rvchangue quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-08T01:57:48Z drmeister: I need some other evidence that it is the problem. 2014-06-08T01:58:25Z rvchangue joined #lisp 2014-06-08T01:59:20Z madist joined #lisp 2014-06-08T02:00:13Z axion: hmm, my sbcl is using 147MB 2014-06-08T02:00:59Z JokerDoomWork quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T02:01:30Z Corvidium: pjb: I have 2014-06-08T02:01:52Z kslt1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-08T02:01:57Z Corvidium: A window appears with the word "CADR" and a linked list node diagram, and it stops there 2014-06-08T02:05:46Z antonv joined #lisp 2014-06-08T02:12:58Z _schulte_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T02:14:21Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-08T02:30:35Z jrm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-08T02:35:02Z rainbyte joined #lisp 2014-06-08T02:35:21Z normanrichards joined #lisp 2014-06-08T02:38:27Z Praise- joined #lisp 2014-06-08T02:39:13Z Praise quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-08T02:40:31Z JuanDaugherty: swap has a special context on osx that's explained where they tell you what the activity monitor stats mean 2014-06-08T02:40:42Z JuanDaugherty: there's more than one class of swap 2014-06-08T02:41:04Z JuanDaugherty: or memory class 2014-06-08T02:42:39Z JuanDaugherty: also I think they like take the whole possible memory space to be avail in some sense when they refer to the size of the "VM" 2014-06-08T02:45:23Z drmeister: JuanDaugherty: I found this: Virtual Memory: The amount of memory mapping that apps have asked for. This is not an actual consumption of RAM resources and it size is determined by the author of the app. 2014-06-08T02:45:30Z drmeister: http://support.apple.com/kb/HT5890 2014-06-08T02:46:03Z whimse1 joined #lisp 2014-06-08T02:46:04Z drmeister: It might be that the virtual memory starts being mapped at some address and over 5 hours the address goes up and up and up but memory at the bottom is released? 2014-06-08T02:46:53Z zRecursive left #lisp 2014-06-08T02:46:58Z drmeister: So the "Virtual memory" reported by Activity Monitor is just the range of addresses used by the program for virtual memory over its entire run but it's not actually mapped to disk or memory space? 2014-06-08T02:47:02Z JuanDaugherty: i think they just assume the whole address space the hardware could handle could potentially be mapped 2014-06-08T02:47:25Z JuanDaugherty: right and they report the actual situation of course 2014-06-08T02:47:31Z drmeister: But at the beginning of the run the Virtual memory is 2.5GB. After 5 hours it's 30GB. 2014-06-08T02:47:47Z JuanDaugherty checks 2014-06-08T02:48:16Z drmeister: After 5 hours Boehm reports that it's using only 2GB and the total sum of reachable object memory in the Boehm heap is about 0.5GB. 2014-06-08T02:48:50Z drmeister: I'm going to run it overnight in debug mode with dmalloc installed and see how much un-free'd space dmalloc finds. 2014-06-08T02:48:51Z JuanDaugherty: oh, sorry thought you were talking about osx, not a special build of sbcl on it 2014-06-08T02:49:09Z drmeister: I'm talking about OS X and my own Common Lisp implementation written in C++. 2014-06-08T02:49:23Z JuanDaugherty: sounds like you may have a leak if you're not doing it in lisp 2014-06-08T02:50:02Z drmeister: The only hint I have of a leak is that "Activity Monitor" reports 30GB of Virtual Memory after 5 hours of run-time. 2014-06-08T02:50:36Z drmeister: Also, it crashes 1 out of 2 times over the last week (running it once per day - 5 hour run). 2014-06-08T02:51:15Z JuanDaugherty: yeah, I run in 8GB without reboot for weeks and it never goes over 5 2014-06-08T02:51:30Z drmeister: I attributed the crashing to it running out of memory. But my hard drive has 87 GB free - 30GB of virtual memory should't cause it to be out of memory. 2014-06-08T02:51:40Z |3b|: if you aren't swapping, i wouldn't worry about it 2014-06-08T02:52:19Z drmeister: I don't think it's swapping - although it's 5 in the morning when it's reaching that point. 2014-06-08T02:52:40Z JuanDaugherty: i.e. the total mem usage never goes over 5 2014-06-08T02:52:41Z |3b|: well, does it take a while for anything else to react on that system after that? 2014-06-08T02:52:43Z drmeister: If it were swapping the machine would lock up. 2014-06-08T02:53:09Z JuanDaugherty: that's crazy 2014-06-08T02:53:13Z drmeister: |3b|: The machine acts a little sluggish when I get to it in the morning but it's usable. 2014-06-08T02:53:19Z JuanDaugherty: swap is normal 2014-06-08T02:53:34Z drmeister: It's not like when I ran with reference counting - that would completely lock up the machine. 2014-06-08T02:53:34Z JuanDaugherty: unless you have enough ram you don't really need it 2014-06-08T02:53:48Z |3b|: having swap is normal, using it for a 2gb or whatever working set isn't :p 2014-06-08T02:53:53Z drmeister: 16GB ram, 87 GB hard disk space (SSD) available. 2014-06-08T02:54:26Z drmeister: My problem might be the crashing - the Virtual memory may be a red herring. 2014-06-08T02:54:29Z JuanDaugherty: the machine i'm typing on is 2 real with like a 4-6 swap set 2014-06-08T02:54:58Z beach joined #lisp 2014-06-08T02:55:37Z JuanDaugherty: 4 and I think i have swappiness set to 70 2014-06-08T02:55:56Z |3b|: JuanDaugherty: sounds painful :/ 2014-06-08T02:55:57Z drmeister: JuanDaugherty: Are you on OS X or Linux? 2014-06-08T02:56:08Z drmeister: I'm not familiar with those terms. 2014-06-08T02:56:13Z |3b| likes large data sets too much to survive on 8GB 2014-06-08T02:56:34Z |3b|: 8gb + swap is borderline :p 2014-06-08T02:56:40Z JuanDaugherty: the machine i'm typing on now is a '05 era dual xeon with debian stable 2014-06-08T02:57:02Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2014-06-08T02:57:16Z JuanDaugherty: moin beach 2014-06-08T02:57:53Z Corvidium: Good evening 2014-06-08T02:58:05Z drmeister: Here's a question out of left field. Can code exist on the stack? 2014-06-08T02:58:38Z |3b|: depends on how you define "stack" 2014-06-08T02:58:45Z drmeister: I'm using the dmalloc malloc debugging library and I have some memory that is malloc'd and not free'd and the return address is a stack address: 0x7fff9219be13. 2014-06-08T02:58:51Z |3b|: and "code" for that matter 2014-06-08T02:59:17Z JuanDaugherty: ActivityMonitor on the 8GB machine does say Swap: 0 bytes 2014-06-08T02:59:18Z drmeister: Every other call return address has a reasonable address like: 0x1007a1b04 2014-06-08T02:59:28Z |3b|: you can store whatever, wherever, but permissions might prevent executing it on some pages for example 2014-06-08T02:59:57Z |3b|: probably not too common to have code on the stack outside of an exploit though 2014-06-08T03:00:40Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-06-08T03:00:47Z drmeister: I run this under lldb. I can "source list -a 0x1007a1b04" and it tells me that is a line in lib/c++/v1/__tree:1730 2014-06-08T03:01:34Z drmeister: When I "source list -a 0x7fff9219be13" I get: error: address resolves to libc++.1.dylib[0x000000000003de13], but there is no line table information available for this address. 2014-06-08T03:02:25Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-08T03:03:09Z drmeister: Hmm, that's above the top of my stack. 2014-06-08T03:03:26Z drmeister: Maybe dylib libraries load above the stack? 2014-06-08T03:03:46Z drmeister: So many mysteries. 2014-06-08T03:04:28Z |3b|: google suggests vmmap command might be able to tell you 2014-06-08T03:04:47Z normanrichards quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-08T03:05:27Z |3b|: actually, might help with the 30gb stuff too, depending on what info it gives 2014-06-08T03:08:03Z drmeister: |3b|: Thanks! I'm trying it out 2014-06-08T03:08:26Z Rptx quit (Quit: gonna sleep!) 2014-06-08T03:09:36Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-08T03:12:55Z drmeister: Stupid question: Can different processes use the same memory addresses? 2014-06-08T03:13:18Z JuanDaugherty: in general, yes of course 2014-06-08T03:13:22Z drmeister: The last time I looked hard at addresses of different programs in memory at the same time was on a 80286 2014-06-08T03:13:49Z drmeister: When I run vmmap on my running program and my running copy of emacs - they use the same addresses. 2014-06-08T03:13:59Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T03:14:03Z JuanDaugherty: you'll probably want to focuse on lisp/the thing you're trynna do with boehm here 2014-06-08T03:16:11Z JuanDaugherty: processes in different VMs can't 2014-06-08T03:19:50Z drmeister: JuanDaugherty: For the past three days I thought I had a slow memory leak that was causing my static analyzer to crash in an irreproducible way. 3 weeks ago I was using reference counting - it would only run for a few hours and lock up the machine - I guessed reference cycles. So I incorporated the Boehm garbage collector - that improved things. Now it runs all the way but occasionally crashed while serializing 2014-06-08T03:19:51Z drmeister: out the results. OS X "Activity Monitor" reported 30GB of Virtual memory used after 5 hours. That's why I've been focused on memory usage. 2014-06-08T03:19:52Z JokerDoomWork joined #lisp 2014-06-08T03:20:37Z drmeister: The program I'm running is written in Common Lisp - it reads 165 C++ source files (the source for the CL system) and builds abstract syntax trees and searches them for all class information. 2014-06-08T03:20:59Z drmeister: It's purpose is to build C++ code to interface this with the Memory Pool System garbage collector by Ravenbrook. 2014-06-08T03:21:12Z JuanDaugherty: drmeister, I really only run sbcl on linux, where I would ascribe problems you describe to a failed build of sbcl. 2014-06-08T03:21:50Z oleo is now known as Guest7031 2014-06-08T03:21:54Z drmeister: Understood - I'm not using a tried-and-true system like SBCL - I wrote this Common Lisp system from scratch (pretty much). 2014-06-08T03:22:47Z drmeister: I've been working with it for a year - it's fairly robust - I wrote a Common Lisp compiler and a C++ static analyzer in it. 2014-06-08T03:23:25Z JuanDaugherty: the problem you describe should not require such a memory, even if an entire and heavily augment parse is held in memory, I dunno about the 2014-06-08T03:23:29Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2014-06-08T03:23:33Z JuanDaugherty: type variants you mention 2014-06-08T03:24:35Z JuanDaugherty: but "lock up" is in a different class than exploding memory unless the lock up is due to disk exhaustion 2014-06-08T03:24:39Z drmeister: |3b|: This vmmap program looks like what I need. It prints out all of the memory regions assigned to the process. I'll run the analyzer overnight and have it run vmmap right before it serializes the results. 2014-06-08T03:25:12Z Guest7031 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-08T03:25:26Z JuanDaugherty: you need to use sbcl or other proven lisp, limit yourself to careful extension of same 2014-06-08T03:25:55Z drmeister: JuanDaugherty: The application doesn't require much memory - I can walk the Boehm heap and add up the size of every reachable object - after the 5 hours it only uses about 500MB of memory. 2014-06-08T03:26:18Z drmeister: I don't have a memory leak of Common Lisp objects - that I am certain. 2014-06-08T03:27:57Z drmeister: After processing one C++ file - Activity Monitor reports 3.36 GB and vmmap reports 1.1GB. 2014-06-08T03:28:06Z drmeister doesn't know who to believe!?!!?! 2014-06-08T03:28:14Z drmeister: I'll go with vmmap. 2014-06-08T03:30:04Z mac_ified quit 2014-06-08T03:30:28Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2014-06-08T03:32:40Z drmeister: And shared libraries live above the stack - so that solves that mystery. 2014-06-08T03:34:20Z Guest57584 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-08T03:35:26Z |3b|: drmeister: might also look at allmemory, it looked like it could do some stuff about tracking over time or saving data to compare later or something 2014-06-08T03:37:33Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-08T03:37:51Z drmeister: Thanks - I'm reading the man page 2014-06-08T03:50:26Z pjb: Corvidium: then since you have, the answer to your question is: YES. 2014-06-08T04:01:45Z jxv joined #lisp 2014-06-08T04:05:20Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2014-06-08T04:08:05Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-08T04:09:26Z JokerDoomWork quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-08T04:10:07Z Corvidium: pjb: ha ha ha 2014-06-08T04:10:25Z mac_ified quit 2014-06-08T04:12:46Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-08T04:16:18Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-06-08T04:18:13Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-08T04:25:59Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2014-06-08T04:26:04Z bocaneri quit (Changing host) 2014-06-08T04:26:04Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2014-06-08T04:27:08Z bocaneri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-08T04:27:25Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2014-06-08T04:27:56Z davazp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-08T04:29:04Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-08T04:33:13Z rainbyte quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-08T04:33:34Z rainbyte joined #lisp 2014-06-08T04:33:53Z gko quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-06-08T04:36:42Z gko joined #lisp 2014-06-08T04:36:50Z jxv quit (Quit: QUIT) 2014-06-08T04:39:55Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-08T04:40:01Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-08T04:40:43Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-08T04:42:31Z phax left #lisp 2014-06-08T04:43:07Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-08T04:47:43Z Adlai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-08T04:48:09Z Adlai joined #lisp 2014-06-08T04:52:39Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-08T04:55:50Z samskull1 joined #lisp 2014-06-08T04:57:51Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-08T04:59:12Z samskulls quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-08T04:59:47Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-08T05:01:08Z blakbunnie27 quit (Quit: EliteBNC free bnc service - http://elitebnc.org - be a part of the Elite!) 2014-06-08T05:02:44Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-08T05:02:57Z tesuji joined #lisp 2014-06-08T05:03:53Z ck_: morning 2014-06-08T05:04:39Z ck_: H4ns: is this early enough? does slime/slime/pull/84 do everything you need? we done already? 2014-06-08T05:06:13Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-08T05:08:59Z KCL_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T05:11:52Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-08T05:13:35Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2014-06-08T05:15:56Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-08T05:16:42Z whimse1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-08T05:19:52Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-06-08T05:20:12Z whimse1 joined #lisp 2014-06-08T05:20:14Z MjrTom quit (Quit: Planet Earth is blue, and there's nothing I can do) 2014-06-08T05:22:03Z noncom|2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-08T05:24:17Z gko quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-06-08T05:24:22Z whimse1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-08T05:25:39Z whimse1 joined #lisp 2014-06-08T05:27:41Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-08T05:27:53Z gko joined #lisp 2014-06-08T05:31:48Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-08T05:42:53Z lukego joined #lisp 2014-06-08T05:43:39Z whimse1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-08T05:44:59Z jusss quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T05:45:04Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-06-08T05:46:00Z gko quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-06-08T05:47:47Z gko joined #lisp 2014-06-08T05:48:51Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-08T05:53:29Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T05:55:45Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-08T06:01:19Z H4ns: ck_: i've not tried it, but i'd like to 2014-06-08T06:03:20Z CrazyWoods joined #lisp 2014-06-08T06:06:11Z H4ns: ck_: from the discussion in the pull request and in https://github.com/slime/slime/pull/100, i take it that no changes to the repl will be accepted into upstream until it is based on comint. 2014-06-08T06:08:49Z ck_: aha, okay 2014-06-08T06:09:17Z H4ns: i'll give alendvai's patch a try nevertheless 2014-06-08T06:09:28Z ck_: me too, does it still apply? 2014-06-08T06:09:44Z H4ns: no :( 2014-06-08T06:10:17Z ck_: well, it is almost four years old so that shouldn't surprise us 2014-06-08T06:11:50Z H4ns: ok, i tried it and it is too far off current slimes, with changed function signatures etc 2014-06-08T06:11:53Z nipra1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-08T06:12:03Z H4ns: tried, did not apply, deleted :) 2014-06-08T06:12:58Z H4ns: what do you think about my proposal regarding C-SPC M-p? 2014-06-08T06:13:24Z Anarch joined #lisp 2014-06-08T06:13:34Z ck_: I agree with it, some modification for how the history matching is done will be included anyway I guess 2014-06-08T06:14:05Z ck_: prefix-arg or different binding altogether, that's just details I think 2014-06-08T06:14:14Z ck_: I'm reading slime-repl.el now 2014-06-08T06:14:19Z ck_: ``reading'' 2014-06-08T06:21:16Z gko quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-06-08T06:22:33Z gko joined #lisp 2014-06-08T06:23:14Z Vivitron joined #lisp 2014-06-08T06:23:20Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T06:26:25Z H4ns: if someone is bothered by our discussion, let us know 2014-06-08T06:27:49Z whimse1 joined #lisp 2014-06-08T06:27:57Z H4ns: ck_: it seems that slime-repl-replace-input needs to be changed so that if (mark) is after slime-repl-input-start-mark, the input is replaced starting from (mark) instead of slime-repl-input-start-mark 2014-06-08T06:28:24Z H4ns: well, is it (mark) really? 2014-06-08T06:28:38Z H4ns: yes. 2014-06-08T06:29:16Z ck_: yes 2014-06-08T06:30:06Z H4ns: also, slime-repl-history-pattern must use (mark) if use-current-input is set. 2014-06-08T06:30:08Z ck_: or possibly from the first open paren, if we find one looking backwards 2014-06-08T06:30:24Z H4ns: that'd be confusing to me. 2014-06-08T06:30:26Z ck_: which is what you proposed, if I understood you correctly 2014-06-08T06:30:35Z ck_: so I didn't understand then :) 2014-06-08T06:30:46Z H4ns: no, i would strictly go by mark. let me explain again: 2014-06-08T06:31:20Z H4ns: normally, M-p fetches the beginning of what has been entered into the repl and makes a regexp, prefixed by ^, from it. 2014-06-08T06:31:58Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-08T06:32:06Z H4ns: what i'd propose is that if (mark) is after the beginning of the input, the search regexp is constructed starting with (mark), and also the replacement is done only starting at (mark) 2014-06-08T06:32:29Z ck_: yes, in using slime-repl-previous-input, using slime-repl-history-replace 2014-06-08T06:32:32Z ck_: aha, I understand now 2014-06-08T06:32:45Z H4ns: does it make sense? would you use it? 2014-06-08T06:34:03Z ck_: when I told you I agreed with your proposal, I thought you would use C-SPC to distinguish between inserting previous inputs at the point with or without a regex pattern to filter the history 2014-06-08T06:35:04Z H4ns: well, it amounts to that, too :) if you type C-SPC M-p, you'll get your previous input yanked at point. 2014-06-08T06:35:40Z H4ns: if you type C-SPC (foo M-p, you'll get the first input matching (foo yanked at point, keeping what you've typed so far 2014-06-08T06:35:54Z H4ns: to me, that sounds convenient and rather obscure, too :) 2014-06-08T06:36:24Z ck_: I would use it, yes, I believe so 2014-06-08T06:36:50Z H4ns: you want to try implementing it? or should i? 2014-06-08T06:37:29Z Vivitron: That seems nice. I've shared my snippet which only includes the behavior of yanking the previous to point. I've found it worthwhile to have. 2014-06-08T06:37:44Z ck_: You told me that you have a family to attend to. So it is a moral imperative that I should try and do that .. even though this will be my first time hacking on slime code. 2014-06-08T06:38:03Z H4ns: ck_: my daughter just woke up, yes :) 2014-06-08T06:38:43Z H4ns: ck_: it should be two relatively small changes, one in slime-repl-history-pattern and one in slime-repl-replace-input 2014-06-08T06:39:27Z ck_: H4ns: right, have a nice extended weekend. I can't promise to be quick about it though :) 2014-06-08T06:39:47Z H4ns: ck_: if you did not know ielm, you should 2014-06-08T06:40:03Z ck_: not -previous-input and -repl-history-replace ? 2014-06-08T06:40:22Z H4ns: ck_: no, ielm is the proper elisp repl 2014-06-08T06:40:28Z H4ns: ck_: M-x ielm 2014-06-08T06:40:30Z ck_: that I do know :) My three open windows are slime-repl.el, *help* and ielm 2014-06-08T06:40:38Z H4ns: ok 2014-06-08T06:40:39Z H4ns: :) 2014-06-08T06:40:47Z lukego quit (Quit: lukego) 2014-06-08T06:41:46Z KCL_ joined #lisp 2014-06-08T06:42:48Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2014-06-08T06:43:29Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T06:46:11Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-08T06:47:13Z prxq joined #lisp 2014-06-08T06:48:52Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2014-06-08T06:50:44Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-08T06:51:00Z benkay quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-08T06:51:22Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-06-08T06:52:30Z malice joined #lisp 2014-06-08T06:54:03Z lukego joined #lisp 2014-06-08T06:54:58Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T06:56:11Z aeth joined #lisp 2014-06-08T06:59:20Z phadthai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T07:04:44Z rainbyte quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-08T07:04:59Z rainbyte joined #lisp 2014-06-08T07:05:34Z rainbyte quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-08T07:05:50Z rainbyte joined #lisp 2014-06-08T07:06:14Z rainbyte quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-08T07:06:28Z rainbyte joined #lisp 2014-06-08T07:11:54Z Beetny joined #lisp 2014-06-08T07:13:29Z JuanDaugherty quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-08T07:14:21Z madis_ joined #lisp 2014-06-08T07:16:18Z madist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T07:18:10Z vlnx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-08T07:18:53Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-08T07:22:09Z vlnx joined #lisp 2014-06-08T07:27:46Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-08T07:30:29Z KCL_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T07:37:04Z madis_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-08T07:38:56Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-08T07:40:09Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-08T07:44:19Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-06-08T07:57:29Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T07:58:28Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-08T07:59:54Z ehaliewicz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-08T08:09:22Z Vivitron quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-08T08:09:30Z Vivitron joined #lisp 2014-06-08T08:15:58Z Corvidium quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T08:18:11Z beach: Hmm. A THE special form in a tail position can become messy. 2014-06-08T08:18:23Z JuniorRoy1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-08T08:18:59Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-06-08T08:19:55Z JuniorRoy joined #lisp 2014-06-08T08:29:11Z mr-foobar joined #lisp 2014-06-08T08:34:17Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-08T08:35:15Z Sir_herrbatka joined #lisp 2014-06-08T08:35:56Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-06-08T08:38:33Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-08T08:39:42Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-08T08:39:42Z Vutral quit (Changing host) 2014-06-08T08:39:42Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-08T08:39:43Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-08T08:40:31Z Patzy quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-08T08:42:12Z dbh joined #lisp 2014-06-08T08:42:44Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-08T08:49:29Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T08:50:15Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-08T08:51:29Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-08T08:57:16Z ggole joined #lisp 2014-06-08T09:00:29Z dbh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-08T09:06:40Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-08T09:08:24Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-08T09:09:02Z malice quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-08T09:14:48Z therik joined #lisp 2014-06-08T09:17:16Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-08T09:25:47Z whimse2 joined #lisp 2014-06-08T09:27:19Z whimse1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-08T09:41:46Z foreignFunction joined #lisp 2014-06-08T09:42:56Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-08T09:45:35Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-08T09:45:37Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-08T09:49:22Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-08T09:51:15Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-08T09:51:29Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-08T09:54:07Z GuilOooo_ is now known as GuilOooo 2014-06-08T09:55:01Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-08T09:59:11Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-08T10:00:11Z gniourf quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-08T10:01:05Z gniourf joined #lisp 2014-06-08T10:02:58Z nug700 quit (Quit: bye) 2014-06-08T10:05:33Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-08T10:10:59Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-06-08T10:11:13Z ndrei quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-08T10:20:44Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-06-08T10:22:34Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-08T10:26:36Z shridhar joined #lisp 2014-06-08T10:27:05Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-08T10:30:10Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-08T10:31:42Z protist joined #lisp 2014-06-08T10:32:23Z madist joined #lisp 2014-06-08T10:35:14Z JuniorRoy1 joined #lisp 2014-06-08T10:35:31Z JuniorRoy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-08T10:42:29Z nipra quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-08T10:44:17Z whimse2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-08T10:44:59Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-08T10:45:15Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-08T10:45:21Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-08T10:46:54Z francogrex joined #lisp 2014-06-08T10:48:03Z francogrex: Hi, I notice that in the debian repo there are lisp packages: https://packages.debian.org/stable/lisp/ does every author introduce his package to the repo or is there a 'guru' who searches for interesting ones chooses and adds them and he/she finds fit? anyone knows? 2014-06-08T10:48:38Z stassats: nobody cares about distro packages 2014-06-08T10:49:42Z beach: dim does, I think. 2014-06-08T10:49:54Z francogrex: well, at least the person doing that task seems to care! 2014-06-08T10:50:04Z H4ns: francogrex: i maintain a bunch of often-used lisp libraries (hunchentoot, drakma etc) and don't care about debian or any other operating system distributions. if the stuff ends in there, someone else does the maintenance and i don't know them. 2014-06-08T10:50:19Z francogrex: ok 2014-06-08T10:52:01Z madist quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-08T10:52:02Z francogrex: because if it's useless to maintain it there (or even counterproductive) we may send a note to the maintainer to 'stop wasting his time' 2014-06-08T10:52:19Z H4ns: whoever "we" is. 2014-06-08T10:52:55Z H4ns: people who maintain lisp packages as os distribution packages sometimes have specific reasons why they do it. 2014-06-08T10:55:56Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-06-08T10:56:12Z tesuji quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-08T11:01:59Z JuanDaugherty: the distros are usually backed by whatever evil corporate interest, the labor maintaining them paid by same 2014-06-08T11:02:17Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-08T11:02:24Z JuanDaugherty: will usually be a secondary or tertiary channel for the creator 2014-06-08T11:03:01Z JuanDaugherty: oft times collide with the best channel for a local culture, in this case ql 2014-06-08T11:03:15Z lukego quit (Quit: lukego) 2014-06-08T11:03:43Z JuanDaugherty: *evil interest claiming not be evil 2014-06-08T11:03:48Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-08T11:04:39Z JuanDaugherty: debian is kinda a grey case unless it turns out ubuntu is actually doing 2014-06-08T11:05:28Z zwer quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-08T11:06:30Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-08T11:09:59Z JuanDaugherty: u should go in #debian and ask "are yall a thin skin of evil or wat?" 2014-06-08T11:10:14Z H4ns: JuanDaugherty: thank you for this valuable information! 2014-06-08T11:11:08Z JuanDaugherty: *not to be 2014-06-08T11:11:23Z JuanDaugherty: H4ns, kein problem 2014-06-08T11:12:52Z francogrex: hmm ... I regret having brought this up, but I guess even I had mentioned 'red tomatoes' there would have been a rant about the evils of red tomatoes... 2014-06-08T11:13:11Z stassats: francogrex: don't worry, JuanDaugherty is always like that 2014-06-08T11:14:38Z theos joined #lisp 2014-06-08T11:14:48Z JuanDaugherty: kettle callin' the pot sensi imo 2014-06-08T11:15:59Z hugoduncan joined #lisp 2014-06-08T11:18:59Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T11:25:02Z francogrex quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-08T11:26:11Z madist joined #lisp 2014-06-08T11:29:34Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-08T11:29:58Z JuanDaugherty: as I just noted yesterday though this is not the snottiest of channels. Some guy was chewin' up the bandwidth yesterday with a problem that was obviously from his having clobbered an implementation and introduced egregious leaks 2014-06-08T11:30:33Z JuanDaugherty: and nobody called a halt to it I saw 2014-06-08T11:31:04Z H4ns: so? 2014-06-08T11:32:49Z JuanDaugherty: so red tomatoes is the edible ones? 2014-06-08T11:33:03Z stassats: JuanDaugherty: go away 2014-06-08T11:33:14Z JuanDaugherty: stassats, bite me 2014-06-08T11:33:46Z AT_void joined #lisp 2014-06-08T11:38:23Z theos quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-08T11:39:26Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-08T11:40:34Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-08T11:40:50Z Vutral quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-08T11:43:35Z dim: francogrex: I'm working on automated Quicklisp to debian packaging 2014-06-08T11:43:49Z dim: francogrex: Have a look at https://github.com/dimitri/ql-to-deb 2014-06-08T11:44:10Z dim: I'm on the hook to add a bunch (40 to 50) of CL libs to debian so that I can properly package pgloader and pginstall there 2014-06-08T11:44:54Z dim: pgloader isn't shiped mainly as a CL-oriented lib package, but as a /usr/bin tool that should just work on the command line, so I'm very interested into my users being able to just apt-get install pgloader then pgloader --help 2014-06-08T11:46:30Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-08T11:50:05Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-08T11:53:52Z H4ns: dim: will you not give debian users the impression that the lisp libraries that pgloader needs can be used for their own purposes? 2014-06-08T11:54:10Z H4ns: dim: what will happen if someone needs a newer library that is not compatible to pgloader? 2014-06-08T11:54:14Z dim: yes, and that will be the case 2014-06-08T11:54:23Z dim: I will update/fix pgloader 2014-06-08T11:54:32Z dim: (and the libs) 2014-06-08T11:54:50Z H4ns: so you'll become the lisp libraries on debian maintainer 2014-06-08T11:54:59Z dim: exactly 2014-06-08T11:55:19Z dim: that's either that or "vendor in" all the libs in the pgloader package itself, which isn't the "proper" debian way 2014-06-08T11:55:20Z theos joined #lisp 2014-06-08T11:55:20Z JuanDaugherty: so that's pg dependent, you have to have pg? 2014-06-08T11:55:46Z dim: pgloader is a PostgreSQL data loader tool that is written in CL and uses a lot of CL libs from Quicklisp 2014-06-08T11:55:50Z H4ns: dim: i don't see what would be "proper" about that way, but who am i to judge. 2014-06-08T11:56:06Z dim: the CL libs of course can be used for whatever purpose you want to, that might or might not include using PostgreSQL 2014-06-08T11:56:21Z JuanDaugherty doesn't mind I have pg on most hosts 2014-06-08T11:57:00Z dim: H4ns: well I've been doing debian packaging for about 14 years now, and I've been talking to other DD guys, most importantly my debian sponsor, and we feel like packaging all the CL libs we need a fully available CL libs on the system is the way to go 2014-06-08T11:57:20Z dim: H4ns: now, as not doing so would be so much simpler, we're open to being convinced otherwise 2014-06-08T11:57:23Z JuanDaugherty: just seems a lil odd for a general lisp channel 2014-06-08T11:57:35Z JuanDaugherty: i.e. distribution channel 2014-06-08T11:57:56Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-08T11:57:58Z dim: how to get CL libs and use them is a real question on #lisp, IIUC 2014-06-08T11:58:24Z dim: how to build a binary executable from your CL code and ship it is also a real question on #lisp, ISTM 2014-06-08T11:58:37Z dim: so how to package and ship libs on distributions is a real question 2014-06-08T11:58:39Z JuanDaugherty: i mean your ql-deb integration requiring pg 2014-06-08T11:58:48Z dim: oh, does it? 2014-06-08T11:58:49Z H4ns: dim: i'm not trying to convince you. if that is how you want to do it, that's fine by me. 2014-06-08T11:58:49Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-08T11:59:08Z dim: well it's more like how I have done it 2014-06-08T11:59:30Z dim: my sponsor didn't have enough time yet to review the packaging, that's why it's not already available in debian sid and apt.postgresql.org 2014-06-08T12:00:06Z dim: JuanDaugherty: ql-to-deb does not requiring PostgreSQL 2014-06-08T12:00:24Z cibs quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-08T12:00:24Z karupa quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-08T12:00:24Z tali713 quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-08T12:00:50Z JuanDaugherty: yeah and actually come to think of it every one of my linux host does have pg, it's just not running continuously on all of em 2014-06-08T12:00:52Z dim: s/requiring/require/ 2014-06-08T12:01:11Z JuanDaugherty: *hosts 2014-06-08T12:02:24Z zz_karupa joined #lisp 2014-06-08T12:02:38Z tali713 joined #lisp 2014-06-08T12:03:34Z zz_karupa is now known as karupa 2014-06-08T12:05:19Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-08T12:05:40Z cibs joined #lisp 2014-06-08T12:08:36Z JuanDaugherty: the main fly in that ointment will be how stale base implementations are on debian stable 2014-06-08T12:08:51Z JuanDaugherty: 1.0.57 for sbcl currently for example 2014-06-08T12:09:40Z dim: I intend to have my sponsor backport sid version of SBCL 2014-06-08T12:10:46Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-08T12:11:55Z JuanDaugherty: if it was me I'd just do the build of sbcl, as a special case of the most used implementation 2014-06-08T12:12:35Z dim: see https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=sbcl and https://packages.debian.org/sid/sbcl 2014-06-08T12:12:39Z foreignFunction quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-08T12:12:42Z JuanDaugherty: the whole value of debian stable is ... polluting an instance generally with the other branch is observe to lead to tears 2014-06-08T12:12:50Z dim: debian already has SBCL 1.1.18, just not in its stable version, of course 2014-06-08T12:12:53Z JuanDaugherty: d 2014-06-08T12:13:04Z dim: the debian solution to that well known problem is backports 2014-06-08T12:13:18Z dim: so we just have to upload a backport of sid's SBCL 2014-06-08T12:13:20Z dim: that's it. 2014-06-08T12:13:29Z JuanDaugherty: ah 2014-06-08T12:13:54Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-06-08T12:13:56Z JuanDaugherty: as long as it doesn't snag stuff a regular source build wouldn't that's same effect 2014-06-08T12:14:01Z JuanDaugherty: but bettah 2014-06-08T12:15:38Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-08T12:17:35Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-08T12:19:38Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T12:20:44Z AT_void quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-08T12:20:58Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-06-08T12:23:00Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-08T12:24:04Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-08T12:26:31Z foreignFunction joined #lisp 2014-06-08T12:30:06Z lukego joined #lisp 2014-06-08T12:30:15Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-06-08T12:32:27Z qiemem quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-06-08T12:33:54Z shridhar quit (Quit: shridhar) 2014-06-08T12:39:28Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-08T12:43:37Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2014-06-08T12:45:05Z MoALTz__ joined #lisp 2014-06-08T12:45:41Z pnpuff quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-08T12:46:32Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T12:47:37Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-08T12:48:08Z MoALTz_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T12:51:21Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-06-08T12:52:39Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-08T12:53:09Z Praise- is now known as Praise 2014-06-08T12:57:14Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-08T13:02:16Z zenyfish joined #lisp 2014-06-08T13:02:27Z Sir_herrbatka: can somebody can recomend good book about way lisp is implemented? 2014-06-08T13:02:40Z stassats: minion: LiSP? 2014-06-08T13:02:40Z minion: LiSP: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 2014-06-08T13:04:30Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T13:04:59Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-08T13:05:58Z beach: Sir_herrbatka: I agree with stassats. Let me just add that the translation into English (the original is French) is better than the original. :) 2014-06-08T13:07:09Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-08T13:07:13Z Sir_herrbatka: stassats: thanks! :) 2014-06-08T13:07:38Z Sir_herrbatka: beach: that's great since i can't read French :( 2014-06-08T13:08:31Z beach: Yeah, it certainly helps people like you. :) 2014-06-08T13:08:34Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-08T13:17:59Z Shinmera: Is it possible to use OpenGL with CommonQt in some way? 2014-06-08T13:18:02Z mr-foobar quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-08T13:18:39Z Shinmera: As in, the QPainter offers a beginNativePainting method to switch over to OpenGL instructions, but I'm not sure how I would go about doing this in CL. 2014-06-08T13:20:38Z mr-foobar joined #lisp 2014-06-08T13:23:13Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-08T13:30:11Z Shinmera: Loading cl-opengl and intermitting calls to that doesn't seem to have any effect, unless I'm missing something. 2014-06-08T13:30:23Z AdmiralBumbleBee quit (Quit: AdmiralBumbleBee) 2014-06-08T13:30:52Z stassats: you need to use qtopengl, need you not? 2014-06-08T13:32:21Z Shinmera: To be frank I have no idea what I need to do 2014-06-08T13:32:31Z stassats: neither have i 2014-06-08T13:33:47Z ehaliewicz joined #lisp 2014-06-08T13:35:30Z anler quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T13:35:34Z AdmiralBumbleBee joined #lisp 2014-06-08T13:36:51Z nipra quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-08T13:37:44Z ajee joined #lisp 2014-06-08T13:40:09Z JuniorRoy joined #lisp 2014-06-08T13:41:24Z JuniorRoy1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-08T13:41:25Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-08T13:47:54Z SHODAN quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2014-06-08T13:48:07Z SHODAN joined #lisp 2014-06-08T13:48:10Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-06-08T13:53:36Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-08T13:53:37Z |3b|: Shinmera: i'd expect cl-opengl to work if things were set up correctly, not sure what that would involve though. do you have any examples of doing that in C handy? 2014-06-08T13:53:56Z Shinmera: |3b|: http://qt-project.org/doc/qt-4.8/qpainter.html#beginNativePainting 2014-06-08T13:53:58Z zickzackv joined #lisp 2014-06-08T13:54:12Z Shinmera: |3b|: I'm not sure if that's all it takes though, I'm currently digging further 2014-06-08T13:54:48Z |3b|: from the GL side, you need to have a valid GL context active in the thread doing the drawing, and if you want to use extensions you need to configure that as well 2014-06-08T13:55:37Z drmeister: I definitely have a slow memory leak. I ran the debug version for 9 hours last night - it processed 76 files. I stopped it at that point and ran "vmmap" - it reported 15GB in the "DefaultMallocZone". The Boehm GC reported using only 0.5GB and the total reachable objects totaled 0.15GB. 2014-06-08T13:56:05Z |3b|: from the bit of code in those docs, it doesn't look like you need to worry about the context 2014-06-08T13:56:25Z Shinmera: Yeah I was thinking that I'd need to get the context first, but the docs seem to imply otherwise. 2014-06-08T13:56:55Z |3b|: might depend on where that code is called from 2014-06-08T13:57:28Z brucem: drmeister: IIRC, parts of the clang API require that you free the data that it returns ... including, IIRC, strings. Are you doing all of that correctly? 2014-06-08T13:58:25Z Shinmera: |3b|: I'd expect a minimal example to look something like this http://paste.lisp.org/display/142820 but so far all it does is just clear the window with the specified colour. 2014-06-08T13:58:43Z drmeister: brucem: I'm pretty sure that I am. I can get a measure of the LLVM/CLANG memory usage in a few hours. I can do an inventory of objects allocated with "new" using the OS X "heap" command after I run the static analyzer for a few hours. 2014-06-08T13:58:57Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-08T13:59:12Z |3b|: drmeister: i think i also saw a "leaks" command in osx docs, might see if it can find anything 2014-06-08T14:00:29Z drmeister: |3b|: I will try that as well. I tried it this morning on the 15GB run but it took a long time so I interrupted it. I'll run it on a smaller test case. 2014-06-08T14:00:44Z ajee left #lisp 2014-06-08T14:01:13Z drmeister: The trick is constructing a test case that isn't too large so these tools don't take forever to run but is not so small that the memory leak is hidden by all the other memory that is allocated by the process. 2014-06-08T14:01:52Z drmeister: I can't see the forest because of all these damn trees. 2014-06-08T14:03:25Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-08T14:03:32Z |3b|: Shinmera: have you seen http://qt-project.org/doc/qt-4.8/opengl-hellogl.html ? 2014-06-08T14:04:27Z Shinmera: |3b|: I've taken a look at a bunch of these, but they all seem to use a QGLWidget, whereas I absolutely need to draw onto a QPainter, so I don't know if that's the same. 2014-06-08T14:04:53Z Shinmera: Even taking a look at other languages that have wrappers for Qt it seems just as straightforward as the docs imply. 2014-06-08T14:05:00Z Eyess quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T14:05:28Z drmeister: I know the problem is not a CL data structure and it's very likely not Boehm (unless it massively underreports its total heap usage). It's an auxiliary C++ data structure or I'm newing/mallocing stuff and not freeing it. 2014-06-08T14:06:26Z drmeister: I'm trying to track down a leak at a water-slide park. 2014-06-08T14:10:37Z _schulte_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-08T14:13:05Z JuanDaugherty: 0.0 2014-06-08T14:14:03Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-08T14:16:29Z |3b|: Shinmera: are you sure that triangle will be in the view? try (gl:clear-color 1 0 1 1) and (gl:clear :color-buffer) before drawing the triangle 2014-06-08T14:17:05Z Eyes joined #lisp 2014-06-08T14:18:24Z |3b|: Shinmera: might also see if https://bugreports.qt-project.org/browse/QTBUG-28284 applies to you 2014-06-08T14:18:58Z Shinmera: |3b|: Even doing that and making the triangle reach in both - and + directions it doesn't display anything 2014-06-08T14:20:27Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-08T14:23:41Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-08T14:25:43Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-08T14:28:52Z dim: drmeister: valgrind? 2014-06-08T14:29:17Z AdmiralBumbleBee quit (Quit: AdmiralBumbleBee) 2014-06-08T14:29:36Z |3b|: Shinmera: not sure, i'd say try to get a simple example working in c++ then port that to CL 2014-06-08T14:29:51Z |3b|: Shinmera: possibly start from the test case in that bug or something 2014-06-08T14:36:00Z JokerDoomWork joined #lisp 2014-06-08T14:36:34Z Shinmera: |3b|: I'll experiment around a bit and see what I can do 2014-06-08T14:37:00Z zwer quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-08T14:37:20Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T14:38:20Z ehaliewicz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-08T14:38:46Z ehaliewicz joined #lisp 2014-06-08T14:41:51Z drmeister: dim: valgrind isn't supported well on OS X - I'm using dmalloc. 2014-06-08T14:43:21Z fnordbert left #lisp 2014-06-08T14:44:12Z dim: what about a linux VM, vagrant/virtualbox? 2014-06-08T14:45:31Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-08T14:48:56Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T14:50:36Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-08T14:55:00Z Eyes quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T14:55:16Z qiemem joined #lisp 2014-06-08T14:56:37Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-06-08T15:01:26Z Eyes joined #lisp 2014-06-08T15:06:51Z ehaliewicz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-08T15:07:13Z Eyes quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-08T15:08:48Z pnpuff quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-08T15:09:08Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-08T15:09:25Z varjag_ joined #lisp 2014-06-08T15:09:30Z phadthai joined #lisp 2014-06-08T15:10:40Z phadthai quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-08T15:10:48Z phadthai joined #lisp 2014-06-08T15:12:49Z Eyes joined #lisp 2014-06-08T15:14:58Z Adlai quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-08T15:16:17Z K1rk quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-08T15:16:17Z junkris_ quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-08T15:16:17Z rvirding quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-08T15:16:17Z galdor quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-08T15:16:17Z aoh quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-08T15:16:17Z redline6561 quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-08T15:16:17Z H4ns quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-08T15:16:17Z pok quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-08T15:16:23Z aoh joined #lisp 2014-06-08T15:16:23Z pok joined #lisp 2014-06-08T15:16:26Z redline6561 joined #lisp 2014-06-08T15:16:29Z junkris joined #lisp 2014-06-08T15:16:41Z rvirding joined #lisp 2014-06-08T15:16:52Z galdor joined #lisp 2014-06-08T15:16:53Z K1rk joined #lisp 2014-06-08T15:16:53Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-08T15:17:17Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-06-08T15:22:26Z WarWeasle joined #lisp 2014-06-08T15:22:38Z WarWeasle left #lisp 2014-06-08T15:22:59Z MoALTz__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-08T15:29:06Z Adlai joined #lisp 2014-06-08T15:30:00Z Code_Man`: does anyone here know how to use mkcl after compiling it? 2014-06-08T15:32:15Z michael_lee joined #lisp 2014-06-08T15:40:11Z JuanDaugherty: sounds like yet another KCL 2014-06-08T15:40:36Z JuanDaugherty: did one myself in early 90s for OS/2 2014-06-08T15:42:01Z rvirding quit (Changing host) 2014-06-08T15:42:01Z rvirding joined #lisp 2014-06-08T15:42:09Z Adlai quit (Changing host) 2014-06-08T15:42:09Z Adlai joined #lisp 2014-06-08T15:42:45Z JuanDaugherty: should be like any other CL assuming properly built 2014-06-08T15:42:54Z JuanDaugherty: it's a venerable code line 2014-06-08T15:43:42Z Code_Man`: there is an mkcl_min executable but i dont know how to make it exectue a file 2014-06-08T15:43:43Z JuanDaugherty: if it's using git gotta be recent 2014-06-08T15:44:01Z Code_Man`: its somewhat recent but a stable relase 2014-06-08T15:44:09Z JuanDaugherty: well you execute images/cores or text 2014-06-08T15:44:25Z JuanDaugherty: the latter interactively 2014-06-08T15:44:59Z JuniorRoy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-08T15:45:10Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-06-08T15:45:17Z JuanDaugherty: you have to get something to run 2014-06-08T15:45:28Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-08T15:47:09Z JuanDaugherty: go to one of the lisp repos like cliki and pick something then you can run it with that 2014-06-08T15:47:13Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-08T15:49:04Z Code_Man`: ok 2014-06-08T15:49:19Z JuanDaugherty: a good thing to start with would be quicklisp 2014-06-08T15:49:37Z JuanDaugherty: as it's the reigning lisp pkg manager right now 2014-06-08T15:50:12Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-08T15:50:17Z JuanDaugherty: if it won't run that you might wanna consider another implementation 2014-06-08T15:51:30Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T15:51:36Z Code_Man`: i already tried sbcl ccl and ecl and wasnt satisfied 2014-06-08T15:51:39Z JuanDaugherty: a normal thing I do to verify an implementation after building it is see that it can do simple commands 2014-06-08T15:51:47Z JuanDaugherty: and save and restore an image 2014-06-08T15:51:48Z zwer quit 2014-06-08T15:51:54Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-08T15:52:15Z jdz: Code_Man`: what's wrong with those implementations? 2014-06-08T15:52:15Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-08T15:52:19Z jrm joined #lisp 2014-06-08T15:52:32Z Code_Man`: for one the backtrace output did more harm than good 2014-06-08T15:53:03Z jdz: how's that? 2014-06-08T15:53:12Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-08T15:54:10Z Code_Man`: for one thing the output was ridiculously deep in the internals but on the other it was very hard to see in higher layers what was what 2014-06-08T15:54:21Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-06-08T15:55:11Z JokerDoomWork quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-08T15:55:45Z Code_Man`: and i kept getting errorous behaviour in ccl with sockets that i just couldnt figure out 2014-06-08T15:55:45Z jdz: Code_Man`: internals would be on the side of the backtrace away from your code? 2014-06-08T15:55:55Z jdz: except the topmost few frames 2014-06-08T15:56:27Z jdz: that are relevant to the condition handling/error reporting/debugger itself 2014-06-08T15:56:40Z Code_Man`: i had real trouble sifitng trough backtraces 2014-06-08T15:57:10Z jdz: Code_Man`: are you using slime? 2014-06-08T15:57:15Z Code_Man`: no 2014-06-08T15:57:42Z Code_Man`: didnt work and i didnt want to bother 2014-06-08T15:58:02Z jdz: well, it's your time... 2014-06-08T15:58:09Z JokerDoomWork joined #lisp 2014-06-08T15:59:23Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-08T16:00:08Z JuanDaugherty: sounds like you wanna stick to implementations the would work with slime 2014-06-08T16:00:16Z JuanDaugherty: *that would 2014-06-08T16:00:57Z Code_Man`: i try to stick with implementations i can use statically 2014-06-08T16:01:08Z Shinmera: |3b|: Hm. Writing a C++ example doesn't show any effects either. Even when I just use the example for beginNativePainting() in the docs. 2014-06-08T16:01:15Z jdz: i personally find backtraces from SBCL and CCL useful, and better than what's available on any other environments i've used in last 10 years 2014-06-08T16:02:07Z JuanDaugherty: ah i c, so ur doing a game or something embedded 2014-06-08T16:02:16Z Code_Man`: might try it again but i want to give mkcl a shot first but i keep getting an initialisation error 2014-06-08T16:02:17Z Shinmera: This is a pain. 2014-06-08T16:04:27Z oleo is now known as Guest98808 2014-06-08T16:05:44Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-08T16:05:59Z Code_Man`: im a dumbass 2014-06-08T16:06:08Z Code_Man`: there was a bin/ subdir with mkcl in it 2014-06-08T16:06:58Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-08T16:06:59Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-08T16:07:16Z Code_Man`: i dont know how i could have overlooked this 2014-06-08T16:07:43Z Guest98808 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-08T16:12:22Z nvmme joined #lisp 2014-06-08T16:12:29Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-06-08T16:14:53Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-08T16:16:09Z CrazyWoods quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-08T16:16:52Z Shinmera: |3b|: Would you be willing to test this real quick to see if there's any effect for you? http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view?id=4X (should be compiled with qt4, if possible) 2014-06-08T16:17:10Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2014-06-08T16:17:26Z oleo__ is now known as oleo 2014-06-08T16:18:15Z nvmme left #lisp 2014-06-08T16:18:41Z stassats: Shinmera: i see a small green rectangle 2014-06-08T16:19:27Z Shinmera: stassats: right, that's the same I have, which means the GL calls are somehow not getting through 2014-06-08T16:22:20Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-08T16:25:18Z DrCode joined #lisp 2014-06-08T16:27:47Z phadthai quit (Quit: brb) 2014-06-08T16:27:55Z phadthai joined #lisp 2014-06-08T16:30:52Z rszeno joined #lisp 2014-06-08T16:32:03Z rszeno quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-08T16:32:23Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-08T16:32:24Z protist quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-08T16:32:39Z atgreen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-08T16:33:09Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2014-06-08T16:34:20Z nvmme joined #lisp 2014-06-08T16:34:59Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-08T16:36:10Z cpc26 quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-08T16:36:29Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2014-06-08T16:36:52Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-08T16:38:00Z nvmme quit (Quit: nvmme) 2014-06-08T16:39:00Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2014-06-08T16:41:30Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T16:42:39Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-06-08T16:44:50Z CrazyWoods joined #lisp 2014-06-08T16:45:23Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-08T16:47:50Z AT_void joined #lisp 2014-06-08T16:53:28Z nvmme joined #lisp 2014-06-08T16:54:43Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-08T16:57:09Z nvmme quit (Quit: nvmme) 2014-06-08T17:00:29Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-08T17:01:16Z stassats: Shinmera: s/QMainWindow/QGLWidget/ 2014-06-08T17:01:27Z Shinmera: stassats: I tried that, it doesn't change anything 2014-06-08T17:01:36Z stassats: it does 2014-06-08T17:01:42Z Shinmera: Hm 2014-06-08T17:02:32Z Shinmera: this is all really strange. 2014-06-08T17:02:35Z CrazyWoods quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-08T17:03:46Z stassats: ./foo -graphicssystem opengl works too 2014-06-08T17:03:59Z stassats: without changing to QGLWidget 2014-06-08T17:05:00Z Shinmera: Hmm, right. It seems to work if I change to QGLWidget, as long as I draw directly onto the widget. When I try to create a painter for a pixmap and draw onto that with GL instructions they fail to show up again. 2014-06-08T17:05:51Z Shinmera: setting the graphicssystem works for that too though 2014-06-08T17:06:15Z KCL_ joined #lisp 2014-06-08T17:06:29Z stassats: QGLPixelBuffer instead of QPixmap? 2014-06-08T17:09:30Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T17:09:57Z Shinmera: Hmm yeah that works too, nice 2014-06-08T17:10:15Z stassats: now, do that from lisp 2014-06-08T17:10:25Z Shinmera: Right, I think I can manage that. 2014-06-08T17:14:22Z nop0x07bc quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-08T17:14:42Z Shinmera: Yep, that works. 2014-06-08T17:14:45Z Shinmera: Thanks a lot, stassats 2014-06-08T17:15:42Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-08T17:17:21Z michael_lee quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-08T17:21:18Z eni joined #lisp 2014-06-08T17:21:55Z boogie joined #lisp 2014-06-08T17:21:56Z jxv joined #lisp 2014-06-08T17:23:20Z JokerDoomWork quit (Ping timeout: 240 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2014-06-08T18:38:09Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-08T18:38:19Z dim: meanwhile I've just done some more clisp kids level hackery with screen:*window* and ext:with-keyboard ;-) 2014-06-08T18:38:25Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-08T18:38:36Z dim: like, lowest level text-as-graphics you can imagine, I guess 2014-06-08T18:39:23Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-08T18:40:40Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-08T18:41:52Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-08T18:42:08Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-06-08T18:42:16Z cyphase joined #lisp 2014-06-08T18:43:33Z AT_void quit (Quit: (nil)) 2014-06-08T18:43:38Z JokerDoomWork quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T18:56:08Z nipra quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-08T18:56:19Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-06-08T18:56:44Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2014-06-08T18:57:28Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-08T18:58:56Z JokerDoomWork joined #lisp 2014-06-08T19:02:06Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-08T19:09:18Z 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http://picpaste.com/pics/desktop-ZYs2RVjd.1402260436.png 2014-06-08T20:50:23Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-08T20:50:59Z Sir_herrbatka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-08T20:51:17Z beach left #lisp 2014-06-08T20:54:28Z Vlaz joined #lisp 2014-06-08T20:57:18Z VladZ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-08T20:59:11Z dbushenko quit (Quit: Ухожу я от вас (xchat 2.4.5 или старше)) 2014-06-08T21:02:46Z pjb` joined #lisp 2014-06-08T21:04:13Z therik quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-08T21:06:02Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-08T21:06:56Z normanrichards quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-08T21:11:58Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-08T21:13:21Z bocaneri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-08T21:16:27Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-08T21:25:32Z ggole quit 2014-06-08T21:25:57Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2014-06-08T21:31:00Z monod quit (Quit: Quit) 2014-06-08T21:37:15Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-08T21:37:25Z 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When you use it, the Boehm garbage collector works with fork - who'd a thunk it. 2014-06-08T23:38:56Z VladZ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-08T23:38:59Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-08T23:39:42Z drmeister: So I altered the static analyzer to fork for every C++ source file and keep 7 forked children running at all times. No more memory problems. 2014-06-08T23:40:17Z klltkr joined #lisp 2014-06-08T23:40:29Z drmeister: stassats: I think you suggested something like that - thank you. 2014-06-08T23:42:41Z drmeister: Each run generates ~6MB of data which will generate about 1GB of data once all 165 files are done. Then I'll merge them and if past experience holds up it should result in about 100MB of non-redundant data on all C++ classes in my application. 2014-06-08T23:44:30Z Guest40900 joined #lisp 2014-06-08T23:44:31Z drmeister: dmalloc was a disappointment - whenever I ran the application with more than a few C++ source files dmalloc would fail silently and not generate a report file. Very annoying. 2014-06-08T23:46:47Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-08T23:47:49Z jxv joined #lisp 2014-06-08T23:48:55Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2014-06-08T23:49:48Z Shinmera quit (Quit: ZzzZ) 2014-06-08T23:50:31Z drmeister: Does clang leak memory? 2014-06-08T23:51:03Z VladZ joined #lisp 2014-06-08T23:51:10Z drmeister: Or is that unthinkable? 2014-06-08T23:51:24Z drmeister: Whoops, wrong group - sorry 2014-06-08T23:53:40Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-08T23:54:02Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-08T23:54:07Z Vlaz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-08T23:54:24Z VladZ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T00:01:47Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2014-06-09T00:02:40Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2014-06-09T00:08:14Z Ne0 joined #lisp 2014-06-09T00:08:51Z clop2 joined #lisp 2014-06-09T00:18:33Z antonv joined #lisp 2014-06-09T00:21:11Z nialo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T00:21:48Z nialo joined #lisp 2014-06-09T00:26:02Z vkeg joined #lisp 2014-06-09T00:28:01Z Ne0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T00:28:01Z jxv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T00:28:10Z foreignFunction quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-09T00:32:52Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T00:33:18Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2014-06-09T00:33:47Z pjb is now known as Guest22876 2014-06-09T00:33:54Z Guest22876 is now known as pjb` 2014-06-09T00:34:03Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2014-06-09T00:35:59Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-09T00:36:07Z drewc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-09T00:38:31Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T00:38:36Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-09T00:38:46Z zwer quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-09T00:39:22Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-09T00:44:32Z zenyfish left #lisp 2014-06-09T00:46:39Z nialo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-09T00:47:31Z nialo joined #lisp 2014-06-09T00:48:21Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T00:48:43Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2014-06-09T00:53:24Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T00:55:29Z replcated joined #lisp 2014-06-09T00:56:15Z xrash joined #lisp 2014-06-09T00:56:51Z drmeister: I can't win with this stupid Boehm garbage collector. Now when I'm loading the merging the results of the static analysis on individual C++ files it crashes right after warning me: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/d9980afd838c1572519d 2014-06-09T00:56:57Z drmeister: It warns: Repeated allocation of very large block (appr. size 3149824): 2014-06-09T00:57:00Z klltkr is now known as klltkr[ORL] 2014-06-09T00:57:52Z drmeister: Now I have a large hash table that is undoubtedly growing at this stage but the total memory usage is _only_ 8.5GB at this point. 2014-06-09T00:58:29Z JamesNZ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T00:58:36Z Bike: repeatedly allocating a 3 MB block, huh. like (loop (make-list 10e9)) or something 2014-06-09T00:59:16Z drmeister: I don't think it's repeatedly allocating a 3MB block - I think it's doubling the size of the hash table. 2014-06-09T00:59:30Z drmeister: I'll run it under the debugger and trap the error message. 2014-06-09T01:00:41Z Guest40900 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T01:01:22Z drmeister: This is so maddening - I just need it to complete so I can get MPS running. After that I could even ditch Boehm and just use an old version of clasp to build the new versions. 2014-06-09T01:02:13Z drmeister: Boehm has a problem with allocating large blocks of memory - it likes lots of small blocks of memory. 2014-06-09T01:02:48Z xrash quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-09T01:02:48Z drmeister: I had the folks on the Boehm mailing list suggest that I refactor my large arrays into data structures that worked with small blocks - that would be more work. What do other Lisps do? 2014-06-09T01:03:33Z drmeister: Do other Lisps implement arrays and vectors as lots of little blocks of memory? Or do they use contiguous chunks of memory? 2014-06-09T01:03:54Z Bike: i'm pretty sure sbcl simple-vectors are contiguous, and hash tables are in terms of them 2014-06-09T01:05:14Z nialo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-09T01:05:26Z drmeister: Right - that's what I do. But with a conservative garbage collector I'm guessing there will be trouble and lots of fragmentation when you start doubling the size of your arrays in the hash tables. 2014-06-09T01:05:56Z nialo joined #lisp 2014-06-09T01:06:22Z drmeister: ECL uses the Boehm GC. I wonder how it gets by? Or is it just that I'm processing such a large data set that Boehm can't handle it. 2014-06-09T01:07:21Z drmeister: The MPS library won't have this problem because it's a compacting GC. 2014-06-09T01:08:05Z ered quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-06-09T01:10:59Z cpc26 quit 2014-06-09T01:12:14Z ered joined #lisp 2014-06-09T01:17:43Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-09T01:19:55Z replcated quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T01:21:22Z aster` joined #lisp 2014-06-09T01:22:27Z replcated joined #lisp 2014-06-09T01:22:49Z aster` left #lisp 2014-06-09T01:23:31Z vkeg quit (Quit: vkeg) 2014-06-09T01:29:01Z nialo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-09T01:30:35Z harish joined #lisp 2014-06-09T01:33:53Z vkeg joined #lisp 2014-06-09T01:34:29Z replcated quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-09T01:38:49Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2014-06-09T01:39:19Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-09T01:40:32Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T01:42:24Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-09T01:44:41Z nialo joined #lisp 2014-06-09T01:47:42Z sytse: lol @ 'Implementations could compatibly retain the :TEST-NOT keywords for an interim period.' @ http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/CLHS/Issues/iss345_w.htm 2014-06-09T01:48:03Z sytse: I'd guess they weren't thinking of a 30-year 'interim period' back in '89 :] 2014-06-09T01:50:54Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2014-06-09T01:52:36Z sytse: (not that complement and constantly perform as well as test-not/if-not/.. in sbcl afaics) 2014-06-09T01:52:41Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-09T01:55:28Z effy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T01:56:49Z effy joined #lisp 2014-06-09T01:56:49Z varjag_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-06-09T01:57:17Z JuniorRoy joined #lisp 2014-06-09T01:57:31Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-09T02:00:37Z chu joined #lisp 2014-06-09T02:02:08Z drmeister: I take back some of the awful things I thought about the Boehm GC. The crash I described above was my fault. I intercepted the Boehm warning and then tried to interpret an integer value as a pointer and crashed when I tried to dereference it. 2014-06-09T02:04:31Z vkeg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T02:05:52Z drmeister: It is teaching me though - maybe I should allocate these large arrays in sizes that are powers of 2. 2014-06-09T02:06:06Z drmeister: They would be more reusable that way. 2014-06-09T02:06:26Z |3b|: yeah, sounds like it could help 2014-06-09T02:06:33Z jchochli quit 2014-06-09T02:06:59Z |3b|: 30gb of address space used sounds more reasonable after hearing it isn't a compacting collector 2014-06-09T02:07:27Z drmeister: Did I not mention that? Sorry :-) 2014-06-09T02:08:02Z |3b|: may have, just not close in time enough to associate the 2 facts 2014-06-09T02:12:49Z drmeister is looking up solutions to F(n) = next highest power of 2 greater than n. 2014-06-09T02:13:44Z Jubb joined #lisp 2014-06-09T02:13:57Z Bike: i think that's in hacker's delight 2014-06-09T02:14:29Z Bike: though it should just be like, 1 << wordsize-clz(n) or something? 2014-06-09T02:14:59Z drmeister: What is clz(n)? 2014-06-09T02:15:05Z Bike: count left zeroes 2014-06-09T02:15:13Z drmeister: Is that a C function? 2014-06-09T02:15:22Z Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Find_first_set 2014-06-09T02:17:25Z drmeister: Yeah there is a built-in - lets see if I can find it. 2014-06-09T02:20:25Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T02:21:00Z drmeister: clz(x) doesn't work - might need a header - I dunno. But __builtin_clz(unsigned int x) works. 2014-06-09T02:21:30Z drmeister: And __builtin_clzll(unsigned long long). 2014-06-09T02:21:53Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-09T02:21:54Z Bike: uh, as far as i can see none of the intrinsics are called "clz", i was just placeholding 2014-06-09T02:22:40Z Bike: anyway that was just my first guess, there might be better ways 2014-06-09T02:22:54Z Bike: and bithacking won't work if you need bignums 2014-06-09T02:23:07Z jrm quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-09T02:23:24Z Zhivago: Trying to second-guess the underlying allocator is generally not a great idea. 2014-06-09T02:24:25Z drmeister: Bike - That is actually a good way given that x86 has an instruction to calculate clz. 2014-06-09T02:25:06Z jrm joined #lisp 2014-06-09T02:25:50Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-06-09T02:26:03Z drmeister: Zhivago: But the Boehm GC allocates exactly what I ask for. Small objects will be reused. Large objects... shouldn't I ask for fewer kinds of them to improve the chances that they will be reused? 2014-06-09T02:26:53Z drmeister: I'm using this only to set the the capacity of vectors. They can shrink and grow within the capacity. 2014-06-09T02:27:57Z drmeister: But if they grow beyond the capacity they will double in capacity to the next power of two. 2014-06-09T02:28:27Z drmeister: Hmmm, I do that already at the hash table level. 2014-06-09T02:31:36Z drmeister: I print a logging message everytime I allocate an array containing more than 100,000 bytes, here's what it looks like as it's loading/merging files. Each file is about 6MB data serialized as human readable S-expressions. https://gist.github.com/drmeister/7a03bcc62d47fc101907 2014-06-09T02:32:50Z johnwalker joined #lisp 2014-06-09T02:33:02Z johnwalker: i'm trying to figure out rename-package 2014-06-09T02:33:48Z johnwalker: it works from slime, but quickload gives me errors 2014-06-09T02:34:30Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-06-09T02:35:28Z drmeister: Hmm, I don't know why it's allocating multiple large blocks of the same size. Logging can be so informative. 2014-06-09T02:36:39Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-06-09T02:38:08Z interlocutor quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-09T02:40:58Z jchochli quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T02:41:41Z JuanDaugherty quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T02:41:47Z dubosec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T02:42:34Z johnwalker: nevermind, i got it. it requires (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (rename-package ...)) 2014-06-09T02:43:39Z johnwalker: i also got slightly fucked by fset, because it's true name is FSet 2014-06-09T02:44:07Z johnwalker: or at least, i think thats the case 2014-06-09T02:44:30Z johnwalker left #lisp 2014-06-09T02:52:00Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-09T02:52:03Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T02:52:36Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-06-09T02:53:50Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2014-06-09T02:55:16Z vkeg joined #lisp 2014-06-09T02:57:04Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T02:58:38Z optikalmouse joined #lisp 2014-06-09T02:58:53Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-06-09T02:59:15Z wheelsucker quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T03:01:38Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2014-06-09T03:02:35Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T03:04:17Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-06-09T03:17:59Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2014-06-09T03:24:03Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-09T03:26:17Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-09T03:26:56Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-09T03:29:01Z KCL_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T03:30:22Z replcated joined #lisp 2014-06-09T03:31:31Z nug700_ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T03:32:04Z nug700 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T03:34:51Z replcated quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T03:35:33Z drmeister: Boehm GC is a toy - I was doing better with reference counting. 2014-06-09T03:35:50Z Bike: harsh. 2014-06-09T03:36:20Z drmeister: I can't even load 30 of these jobs before it dies with "Too many heap sections: Increase MAXHINCR or MAX_HEAP_SECTS" 2014-06-09T03:38:16Z drmeister: Memory has ballooned to about 10GB and at this point it is the Boehm GC that is using the memory. Reachable objects total about 2.5GB. 2014-06-09T03:38:43Z drmeister: I have 0.2GB tied up in arrays. 2014-06-09T03:38:44Z Bike: 300% overhead? 2014-06-09T03:38:54Z drmeister: Yup - about that. 2014-06-09T03:38:59Z clop2 joined #lisp 2014-06-09T03:39:09Z drmeister: The strange thing is I have 1.3GB tied up in CONSes 2014-06-09T03:39:09Z Bike: that's hard to believe, but you're the boss 2014-06-09T03:39:32Z drmeister: Oh wait a sec. 2014-06-09T03:40:22Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2014-06-09T03:40:47Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-09T03:41:01Z drmeister: I have 0.4GB tied up in SourcePosInfo - used to track source code. That's coming out of the reader. Maybe I'm generating source code tracking info on these data files I'm reading. 2014-06-09T03:41:38Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T03:41:43Z drmeister: And 0.28GB in StandardChar's Where the heck is that coming from? 2014-06-09T03:41:53Z Bike: strings? 2014-06-09T03:42:11Z drmeister: I store simple-strings as bytes. 2014-06-09T03:42:42Z MjrTom`-` joined #lisp 2014-06-09T03:42:42Z MjrTom quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-09T03:42:50Z MjrTom`-` is now known as MjrTom 2014-06-09T03:43:46Z drmeister: At least this is my problem. I can fix my problems. 2014-06-09T03:44:52Z vkeg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T03:46:16Z theos: i got 99 problems but a lisp aint one 2014-06-09T03:46:25Z tinyblak quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T03:54:40Z JokerDoomWork quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T03:57:34Z JokerDoomWork joined #lisp 2014-06-09T03:59:48Z drmeister: pp[pppp 2014-06-09T04:00:07Z drmeister: Sorry, cleaning the keyboard :-) 2014-06-09T04:00:24Z drmeister: Not banging my head. 2014-06-09T04:02:36Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T04:03:07Z MjrTom quit (Quit: Planet Earth is blue, and there's nothing I can do) 2014-06-09T04:04:02Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-06-09T04:04:20Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-09T04:05:24Z pjb: drmeister: Boehm GC is C technology. Not surprising it's a toy. 2014-06-09T04:07:47Z drmeister: pjb: I said that in a moment of frustration - I regret it now. The Boehm GC is a tool that works with the constraint that memory can't move. 2014-06-09T04:08:36Z pjb: Yes, because it couldn't move memory without the support C compilers don't provide. 2014-06-09T04:08:53Z pjb: Its design is constrained by the C ecosystem (in-)culture. 2014-06-09T04:09:16Z pjb: Boehm did a great job. 2014-06-09T04:09:17Z drmeister: That is true. 2014-06-09T04:09:47Z kpreid quit (Quit: Quitting) 2014-06-09T04:10:10Z kpreid joined #lisp 2014-06-09T04:10:20Z JokerDoomWork quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T04:11:45Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-09T04:12:59Z drmeister: I just need it to work well enough to get this static analyzer to run. 2014-06-09T04:13:58Z drmeister: I just fixed a bug that was putting a lot of pressure on the garbage collector - I'll see soon if this gets me farther. 2014-06-09T04:15:02Z drmeister: I serialize objects using S-expressions and I use my reader to read those serialized objects. I also have code in my reader to track source code information. Every object it generates gets thrown into a hash table with source file/lineno/column info. 2014-06-09T04:15:47Z drmeister: My serialized data files were being tracked as source code. 2014-06-09T04:18:57Z oleo is now known as Guest60215 2014-06-09T04:20:33Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T04:21:41Z poindontcare joined #lisp 2014-06-09T04:22:17Z Guest60215 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-09T04:24:31Z klltkr joined #lisp 2014-06-09T04:24:51Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-06-09T04:29:40Z jchochli quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T04:39:45Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2014-06-09T04:42:17Z phax left #lisp 2014-06-09T04:47:27Z nug700_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T04:50:07Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-09T04:51:24Z Vivitron joined #lisp 2014-06-09T04:52:52Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-09T04:53:32Z AdmiralBumbleBee joined #lisp 2014-06-09T04:58:27Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-06-09T05:05:34Z MjrTom`-` joined #lisp 2014-06-09T05:05:35Z MjrTom quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-09T05:05:42Z MjrTom`-` is now known as MjrTom 2014-06-09T05:06:15Z KCL_ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T05:07:37Z Tenkujin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T05:09:31Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T05:10:40Z Tenkujin joined #lisp 2014-06-09T05:12:01Z samskull1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T05:13:55Z samskulls joined #lisp 2014-06-09T05:18:41Z innertracks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T05:20:05Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T05:24:45Z MajorTom joined #lisp 2014-06-09T05:24:45Z MajorTom quit (Changing host) 2014-06-09T05:24:45Z MajorTom joined #lisp 2014-06-09T05:24:45Z MjrTom quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-09T05:24:53Z MajorTom is now known as MjrTom 2014-06-09T05:26:18Z tinyblak quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T05:26:41Z AT_void joined #lisp 2014-06-09T05:28:09Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-06-09T05:28:09Z JuniorRoy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T05:28:39Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-06-09T05:30:23Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T05:30:59Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-06-09T05:32:27Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2014-06-09T05:33:40Z petr_ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T05:34:03Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-06-09T05:34:03Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2014-06-09T05:34:03Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-06-09T05:37:31Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T05:41:43Z samskulls quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T05:42:33Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-09T05:43:38Z samskulls joined #lisp 2014-06-09T05:47:28Z H4ns joined #lisp 2014-06-09T05:50:42Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-06-09T05:51:34Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-06-09T05:53:11Z JuniorRoy joined #lisp 2014-06-09T05:56:16Z kikoop joined #lisp 2014-06-09T05:59:23Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-09T06:08:36Z samskulls quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T06:08:55Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-09T06:10:13Z samskulls joined #lisp 2014-06-09T06:10:48Z AT_void quit (Quit: memtest-time :P) 2014-06-09T06:12:23Z Okasu joined #lisp 2014-06-09T06:13:07Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-06-09T06:16:35Z jxv joined #lisp 2014-06-09T06:17:44Z jchochli quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T06:19:38Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-09T06:22:59Z draculus joined #lisp 2014-06-09T06:23:44Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-09T06:26:38Z samskulls quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T06:27:41Z samskulls joined #lisp 2014-06-09T06:29:01Z KCL_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T06:34:09Z AT_void joined #lisp 2014-06-09T06:35:08Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-09T06:36:21Z _tca quit 2014-06-09T06:36:36Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-09T06:36:56Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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joined #lisp 2014-06-09T07:23:17Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2014-06-09T07:24:40Z cheier quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T07:27:17Z MjrTom quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-09T07:27:55Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-09T07:30:56Z ered quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-06-09T07:31:37Z ered joined #lisp 2014-06-09T07:35:05Z tesuji joined #lisp 2014-06-09T07:39:10Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-09T07:39:33Z Sir_herrbatka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-09T07:44:25Z alchemis7 quit (Quit: @) 2014-06-09T07:45:18Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2014-06-09T07:48:28Z foreignFunction joined #lisp 2014-06-09T07:52:02Z dbushenko joined #lisp 2014-06-09T07:56:40Z jayne_ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T07:57:30Z High-Q-Brah quit (Quit: Old soldiers never die, they just fade away.) 2014-06-09T07:58:32Z Tenkujin quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-09T07:58:43Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T07:58:46Z BinaryMcAwesome joined #lisp 2014-06-09T07:59:14Z jayne quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-09T08:00:04Z alchemis7 joined #lisp 2014-06-09T08:00:31Z alchemis7 quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-09T08:01:19Z beaumont`a quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T08:01:20Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-06-09T08:02:05Z BinaryMcAwesome is now known as High-Q-Brah 2014-06-09T08:02:33Z alchemis7 joined #lisp 2014-06-09T08:02:42Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T08:03:02Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T08:03:26Z Tenkujin joined #lisp 2014-06-09T08:03:32Z ft quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T08:03:41Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-09T08:04:19Z MjrTom quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-09T08:04:19Z MjrTom`-` joined #lisp 2014-06-09T08:04:24Z ft joined #lisp 2014-06-09T08:04:27Z MjrTom`-` is now known as MjrTom 2014-06-09T08:05:35Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T08:05:45Z KCL_ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T08:05:49Z jchochli quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T08:06:02Z matko quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T08:06:23Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2014-06-09T08:06:32Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T08:07:09Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-06-09T08:07:11Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-09T08:08:02Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T08:08:02Z leo2007 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T08:08:49Z sigjuice quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T08:08:49Z sigjuice_ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T08:09:44Z jayne_ is now known as jayne 2014-06-09T08:10:51Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-06-09T08:10:57Z ianmcorvidae quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T08:11:02Z cpt_nemo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T08:12:03Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T08:12:03Z ianmcorvidae joined #lisp 2014-06-09T08:12:08Z cpt_nemo joined #lisp 2014-06-09T08:12:18Z prxq joined #lisp 2014-06-09T08:12:32Z brandonz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T08:13:14Z WeirdEnthusiast quit (Changing host) 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2014-06-09T10:29:55Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T10:31:36Z pranavrc_ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T10:33:37Z pranavrc quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-09T10:34:19Z Harag1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T10:34:43Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-06-09T10:35:23Z Harag quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-09T10:40:12Z JuniorRoy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T10:52:31Z YDJX joined #lisp 2014-06-09T10:53:45Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T10:53:48Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-09T10:53:51Z Rosario quit (Changing host) 2014-06-09T10:53:51Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-09T10:55:06Z Rosario quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-09T10:55:13Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-09T10:55:13Z Rosario quit (Changing host) 2014-06-09T10:55:13Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-09T10:56:22Z Zhivago: Rosario: Are you a human being? 2014-06-09T10:56:44Z Rosario: Zhivago: Sure, why are you asking? 2014-06-09T10:57:05Z Zhivago: Well, if you weren't, then I was going to ban you. 2014-06-09T10:57:29Z Rosario: What did I do wrong? Leave/join too often? 2014-06-09T10:57:37Z harish joined #lisp 2014-06-09T10:58:14Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T10:58:35Z Zhivago: Pretty much -- bots like that flood the channel. 2014-06-09T10:59:25Z Rosario: Oh, I'm sorry, had to adjust/test my client settings. 2014-06-09T11:00:37Z stassats: this exchange resulted in more flooding than leave/joins... 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spam-man.) 2014-06-09T12:46:23Z Zhivago has set mode -o Zhivago 2014-06-09T12:47:08Z atgreen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T12:50:59Z pjb: prxq: Yes. 2014-06-09T12:51:21Z pjb: com.informatimago.common-lisp contains it. 2014-06-09T12:52:15Z sroy joined #lisp 2014-06-09T12:52:19Z pjb: cf. packages COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.LISP-SEXP.SOURCE-FORM and COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.LISP-TEXT.SOURCE-TEXT 2014-06-09T12:52:52Z prxq: ok thanks 2014-06-09T12:58:56Z ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 2014-06-09T12:58:58Z ASau` joined #lisp 2014-06-09T12:59:03Z ianmcorvidae quit (Changing host) 2014-06-09T12:59:03Z ianmcorvidae joined #lisp 2014-06-09T13:01:58Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T13:02:42Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2014-06-09T13:03:55Z sohail_ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T13:04:35Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-06-09T13:05:28Z juanlas joined #lisp 2014-06-09T13:07:09Z pranavrc_ quit 2014-06-09T13:08:20Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 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license before integrating" is always good advice 2014-06-09T13:40:09Z Xach: saves panic down the road when you sell your company for a billion euros 2014-06-09T13:40:25Z beaumont`a joined #lisp 2014-06-09T13:41:49Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Exit IRC/Hibernate) 2014-06-09T13:43:07Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-09T13:43:45Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-09T13:46:25Z TDT joined #lisp 2014-06-09T13:48:28Z prxq: well, IIUC, the usual arangement when you sell a company is to include the code. 2014-06-09T13:48:34Z JokerDoomWork joined #lisp 2014-06-09T13:49:05Z Krystof: but the purchaser might be less interested if they discover that you've been violating licence terms 2014-06-09T13:49:30Z pjb: I don't know of any free software license that would forbid selling the company, ie. transfering the ownership of a derived work. 2014-06-09T13:49:47Z pjb: On the other hand, things are probably more restrictive in the case of proprietary licences. 2014-06-09T13:50:00Z f-a joined #lisp 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stassats quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-09T14:45:01Z ck_: H4ns: knock, knock 2014-06-09T14:45:14Z H4ns: ck_: sorry, busy right now :( 2014-06-09T14:45:20Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T14:45:40Z ck_: ck_: please msg me your mail adress if you can, anytime convenient, sorry for interrupting 2014-06-09T14:46:10Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-09T14:46:14Z H4ns: ck_: np, feel free to nag me if you see me snarking at someone, which usually means that i'm bored :) 2014-06-09T14:46:47Z ck_: I just want to send the .patch. It is so trivial I'm almost ashamed 2014-06-09T14:46:53Z H4ns: cool! 2014-06-09T14:47:10Z f-a quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T14:47:16Z H4ns: can you send it by email? 2014-06-09T14:47:34Z ck_: Yes, but I don't know your adress, that's why I asked 2014-06-09T14:51:56Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-09T14:52:49Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2014-06-09T14:53:44Z theos joined #lisp 2014-06-09T14:54:56Z ikki joined #lisp 2014-06-09T14:58:57Z ThePhoeron quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-09T15:00:29Z zickzackv joined #lisp 2014-06-09T15:00:48Z ThePhoeron joined #lisp 2014-06-09T15:02:57Z __class__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-09T15:04:29Z mal_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-09T15:05:55Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-09T15:06:13Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2014-06-09T15:06:13Z bgs100 quit (Changing host) 2014-06-09T15:06:13Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2014-06-09T15:06:55Z _schulte_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T15:09:28Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T15:10:34Z Rosario quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-09T15:10:54Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-09T15:10:55Z JuniorRoy1 joined #lisp 2014-06-09T15:12:59Z JuniorRoy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-09T15:13:13Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-09T15:13:18Z __class__ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T15:13:41Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T15:15:57Z lukego joined #lisp 2014-06-09T15:17:39Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-09T15:19:20Z lukego_ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T15:20:02Z rpg joined #lisp 2014-06-09T15:20:07Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-09T15:20:40Z lukego quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T15:20:40Z lukego_ is now known as lukego 2014-06-09T15:21:53Z BlastHardcheese quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-09T15:23:27Z _schulte_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-09T15:23:39Z mal_ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T15:24:59Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T15:26:02Z Okasu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T15:26:28Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-09T15:29:46Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T15:33:09Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-09T15:36:54Z YDJX left #lisp 2014-06-09T15:39:26Z jusss quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-09T15:39:41Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-09T15:40:47Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-09T15:41:01Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T15:41:27Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-09T15:43:02Z lukego_ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T15:43:16Z Guest41835 is now known as Kruppe 2014-06-09T15:43:18Z lukego quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T15:43:18Z lukego_ is now known as lukego 2014-06-09T15:46:47Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-09T15:47:24Z lukego_ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T15:48:00Z lukego quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T15:48:00Z lukego_ is now known as lukego 2014-06-09T15:48:08Z BlastHardcheese joined #lisp 2014-06-09T15:49:06Z Sir_herrbatka joined #lisp 2014-06-09T15:49:07Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-09T15:50:11Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-09T15:51:48Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-09T15:56:48Z isis__ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T15:57:27Z tkhoa2711 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-09T15:57:49Z therik quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-09T15:58:18Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T15:58:58Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-09T16:00:40Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T16:03:35Z ltbarcly quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T16:03:56Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-09T16:06:29Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-09T16:07:17Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-09T16:07:57Z klltkr quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-09T16:08:26Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-06-09T16:09:00Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T16:11:30Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-09T16:12:26Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-09T16:15:46Z drmeister: stassats: How do serialization libraries for Common Lisp handle Conses? I write them out as (CONS car (CONS car (CONS car (CONS car ...))))) and it's trashing my stack for long lists. 2014-06-09T16:16:19Z drmeister: Sorry - I meant to post that for feedback from anyone - but I recall that stassats wrote a serialization library. 2014-06-09T16:16:32Z KCL_ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T16:16:43Z stassats: proper serializations do not normally serialize things as code 2014-06-09T16:16:47Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-09T16:16:50Z lambda` joined #lisp 2014-06-09T16:17:55Z drmeister: I needed a serialization format and I didn't want to reinvent the wheel so I use the lisp reader and a specializer printer. 2014-06-09T16:18:19Z boogie joined #lisp 2014-06-09T16:18:45Z stassats: so, just have a quoted list? 2014-06-09T16:20:16Z jusss: (+ (/ 1 2) (/ 1 3)) eq ? 2014-06-09T16:20:16Z minion: jusss, memo from pjb: see http://paste.lisp.org/+323X 2014-06-09T16:22:07Z jxv joined #lisp 2014-06-09T16:23:22Z drmeister: here's an example of what I'm doing: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/e17a7ddd7a75e4e3d218 2014-06-09T16:23:27Z gadmyth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-09T16:23:39Z gadmyth joined #lisp 2014-06-09T16:23:57Z drmeister: The idea is a human readable serialization format based on S-expressions that handles internal pointers using #= and ##. 2014-06-09T16:24:30Z stassats: it should be '(:only :d :d #.(make-hashktable) ...) 2014-06-09T16:24:33Z marsam quit (Changing host) 2014-06-09T16:24:33Z marsam joined #lisp 2014-06-09T16:26:27Z lambda` left #lisp 2014-06-09T16:26:55Z izirku joined #lisp 2014-06-09T16:27:22Z drmeister: Hmmm. It's not really code, it won't load into the REPL - it is read by the reader but interpreted by other code that builds data from it. I think I want a list rather than a quoted list. 2014-06-09T16:28:08Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2014-06-09T16:28:49Z Bike: well don't have the conses for sure, that's just crazy 2014-06-09T16:29:59Z drmeister: Bike: Yes it is. BRB 2014-06-09T16:30:04Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-09T16:30:17Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2014-06-09T16:30:21Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T16:31:05Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-06-09T16:31:16Z petr_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-09T16:32:42Z segv- quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-09T16:33:50Z segv- joined #lisp 2014-06-09T16:37:29Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-09T16:38:30Z ivan4th joined #lisp 2014-06-09T16:38:42Z ivan4th quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-09T16:43:06Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-06-09T16:44:46Z jasom: drdo: Serialize it like a list, but have ways of indicating circularity or dotted lists. 2014-06-09T16:44:55Z ivan4th` left #lisp 2014-06-09T16:45:04Z jasom: sorry, I meant to say that to drmeister who apperently isn't online anymore 2014-06-09T16:49:01Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-09T16:49:09Z jusss quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-09T16:51:15Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-06-09T16:53:54Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-09T16:55:12Z segv- quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T16:55:50Z izirku quit 2014-06-09T16:55:50Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-09T16:56:10Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-09T16:57:46Z segv- joined #lisp 2014-06-09T16:57:54Z mhd quit (Ping timeout: 185 seconds) 2014-06-09T16:58:18Z mhd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T16:59:30Z drmeister: Writing out conses as (CONS car cdr) was very easy. Writing them out as lists requires some hacking. 2014-06-09T16:59:55Z stassats: i would think otherwise 2014-06-09T17:00:04Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T17:02:15Z ThePhoeron quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T17:02:19Z rpg quit (Quit: rpg) 2014-06-09T17:02:33Z Bike: same. i mean, the usual printer does that 2014-06-09T17:02:35Z drmeister: The way I set it up is every C++ class has an ::archive(SNode x) virtual function. The SNode has a symbol name (eg: CL:CONS) and a PList for named properties and a Vector for array data. So (CONS 1 2) gets serialized as (CL:CONS (:D 2 :A 1) #0()) 2014-06-09T17:02:44Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-09T17:03:21Z drmeister: Right but the regular printer can't handle hash-tables or any other complex data structures. Mine supports everything. 2014-06-09T17:03:28Z stassats: it can 2014-06-09T17:03:36Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T17:03:43Z Bike: yeah, that's what print-object and such are for... 2014-06-09T17:08:33Z oleo is now known as Guest94388 2014-06-09T17:09:20Z ThePhoeron joined #lisp 2014-06-09T17:10:11Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T17:10:45Z Rosario quit 2014-06-09T17:11:27Z Guest94388 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-09T17:16:42Z jasom: drmeister: a really simple hack if you want to continue down this path is to keep cl:cons but add cl:list and check if it's a proper list first; that will at least optimize the common case 2014-06-09T17:17:23Z jasom: drmeister: but since there are lots of good serialization libraries (not to mention the lisp printer is extendable if you can trust your source when reading in) 2014-06-09T17:17:34Z drmeister: jasom: Thanks. 2014-06-09T17:17:49Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-06-09T17:18:09Z drmeister: There are lots of good serialization libraries but I need one that works with my CL objects as well as my C++ objects. 2014-06-09T17:18:12Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2014-06-09T17:18:12Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-06-09T17:18:20Z jasom: drmeister: again, they tend to be extendible 2014-06-09T17:19:43Z marsam is now known as marsbot 2014-06-09T17:21:10Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-09T17:21:13Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-06-09T17:21:13Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-09T17:26:14Z drmeister: I think I have a simple solution that I'm testing out. I currently transform every object into a structure called an SNode (Serialization-Node). An SNode has a kind (Symbol), a PList (named data) and a Vector (array data) and is serialized as (_kind_ _plist_ _vector_) 2014-06-09T17:26:36Z drmeister: If the object is being loaded it would construct itself from the SNode and if it's being saved it would construct an SNode from itself. 2014-06-09T17:26:50Z drmeister: The code for Cons was: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/25ae603132e40cb3d3c5 2014-06-09T17:27:24Z drmeister: In 99% of cases the code used for reading is reused for writing. 2014-06-09T17:27:56Z Pullphinger joined #lisp 2014-06-09T17:29:10Z Vivitron joined #lisp 2014-06-09T17:29:24Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-09T17:29:24Z Rosario quit (Changing host) 2014-06-09T17:29:24Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-09T17:29:27Z drmeister: It also works with C++ inheritance - derived classes called the archive functions of their base classes. 2014-06-09T17:31:06Z shridhar quit (Quit: shridhar) 2014-06-09T17:31:11Z stassats: you need backtracking for conses, but not for lists 2014-06-09T17:31:33Z drmeister: What do you mean by backtracking in this context? 2014-06-09T17:33:17Z stassats: returning back 2014-06-09T17:34:40Z drmeister: It may appear like I'm not listening to your advice - I am - it's just hard sometimes to translate it into terms I understand and the special constraints that I work under to maintain interoperation with C++. I think about what you say and try to fit it into my understanding and my code over the next couple of days and weeks. 2014-06-09T17:35:45Z stassats: you did say that your stack is exhausted 2014-06-09T17:36:10Z drmeister: Currently, almost every one of my C++ classes has an ::archive(SNode& node) function that translates itself back and forth into/from SNodes. SNodes are then written out in a human readable format. This has worked for me for years. Previously I did it with XML, about a year ago I switched to S-expressions. 2014-06-09T17:36:22Z stassats: that's what you get when using conses 2014-06-09T17:36:38Z stassats: although transforming into tail recursion would work 2014-06-09T17:36:43Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-09T17:36:43Z drmeister: Right. Long sequences of CONSes end up nesting very deep and the reader is recursive and would use up a lot of stack. 2014-06-09T17:36:52Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-09T17:37:00Z jasom: drmeister: if you want to write out a long list with the possibility of maintaining circular references, you're going to blow your stack. 2014-06-09T17:37:22Z drmeister: Your suggestion to convert them into LISTs is an excellent one. I'm trying to figure out how to put a proper and improper list into an SNode and then get it back out. 2014-06-09T17:37:43Z jasom: drmeister: do improper as you do now, and just to lists like you do vectors 2014-06-09T17:37:44Z drmeister: jasom: Circular references are handled by #= and ## 2014-06-09T17:37:57Z stassats: forget about proper lists, just make everything improper 2014-06-09T17:38:11Z stassats: proper lists is just a case of improper lists with some restrictions 2014-06-09T17:38:27Z jasom: drmeister: how do you detect circularity? 2014-06-09T17:38:33Z drmeister: Here's what I'm trying '(a b c d e) --> #6(a b c d e nil) 2014-06-09T17:39:02Z stassats: you don't need 6 2014-06-09T17:39:26Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-09T17:39:34Z drmeister: jasom: The serializer maintains a hash table of all objects written into it and takes care of circular references. 2014-06-09T17:39:55Z tinyblak_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-09T17:39:58Z jxv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T17:40:32Z drmeister: stassats: If I have an improper list '(a b c d e . f) --> #6(a b c d e f) The last element of the vector is always the CDR of the last CONS of the list - won't that work? 2014-06-09T17:41:44Z drmeister: I've only written the CONS writer at this point and I'm about to check it out. Then I'll write the reader. 2014-06-09T17:42:30Z stassats: did you get MPS working? 2014-06-09T17:42:54Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-09T17:43:37Z drmeister: stassats: Funny story - so I implemented the approach you suggested - fork a process to parse each C++ file. 2014-06-09T17:43:37Z ikki quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-09T17:44:15Z drmeister: Now I generate 165 of these files that contain the serialized class/type information for every C++ file. Each of them is between 6 and 14 MB in size. 2014-06-09T17:44:55Z stassats: so, why do you need to write a serialization solution now? 2014-06-09T17:45:08Z drmeister: So now I have to load them and merge them into a single hash table hashed on the class names. While I'm loading file number 76 - guess what? It blows the stack because it contains a list that is too deep. 2014-06-09T17:45:20Z stassats: just hack something quick 2014-06-09T17:45:22Z drmeister: All of the sins of my programming past are coming to haunt me now. 2014-06-09T17:45:39Z drmeister: stassats: and here I am asking about how to hack something quick. 2014-06-09T17:45:58Z drmeister: I've maxed out how much stack a process on OS X can handle = 16MB 2014-06-09T17:46:05Z drmeister: So I have to make a change to the code. 2014-06-09T17:46:20Z stassats: something quick => using the lisp printer 2014-06-09T17:46:40Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-06-09T17:46:56Z stassats: (and reader) 2014-06-09T17:47:26Z jasom: clhs print-object 2014-06-09T17:47:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pr_obj.htm 2014-06-09T17:47:29Z drmeister: I don't think that would not be quicker than what I'm doing now. You give my lisp printer and reader too much credit. It might be faster but it's an unknown. I'd rather work with my serializer library - it's the devil I know. 2014-06-09T17:47:58Z drmeister: I'd have to add code to print and read a hash table - I already have that in my serializer. 2014-06-09T17:48:13Z jasom: drmeister: yeah, in that case just eliminate recursion on CONSes 2014-06-09T17:48:16Z stassats: use a non-recursive cons reader then 2014-06-09T17:48:22Z drmeister: Look: (serialize:save-archive '(a b c d e) "test.dat") --> (CL:NIL (:ONLY (CL:CONS () #6( A B C D E CL:NIL )) ) ) 2014-06-09T17:48:42Z jasom: drmeister: that should work 2014-06-09T17:48:46Z drmeister: (serialize:save-archive '(a b c d e . f) "test2.dat") --> (CL:NIL (:ONLY (CL:CONS () #6( A B C D E F )) ) ) 2014-06-09T17:48:54Z Bike: this serializer is really weird 2014-06-09T17:49:03Z Bike: you should fix up your printer instead, that's what the printer's for 2014-06-09T17:49:26Z stassats: reading linear lists as conses doesn't have to use recursion 2014-06-09T17:49:31Z jasom: Bike: it's for one-off usage, and he's more confident that his serializer is correct than his printer 2014-06-09T17:49:45Z drmeister: stassats: I don't have a non-recursive Cons reader. 2014-06-09T17:51:19Z FracV quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T17:51:25Z drmeister: You are giving me good advice - I won't argue with it - the things you are suggesting are things that will need to be done. My printer is a dogs breakfast at the moment. I know my serializer code works well - I've been relying on it for years. The CONs thing has always been threatening me and it finally bit me. 2014-06-09T17:51:41Z FracV joined #lisp 2014-06-09T17:52:31Z drmeister: Give me just a sec - I'll implement the reader now and we'll see if I can reconstruct proper and improper lists from these values stored in vectors. 2014-06-09T17:52:41Z Bike: this doesn't sound very one-off 2014-06-09T17:55:17Z stassats: in my serialization, '(a b c d e . f) would be [byte for identifying conses][a][b]...[dotted list sentinel] [f] 2014-06-09T17:55:30Z tinyblak_ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T17:55:39Z stassats: a proper list would be just [cons-id][a][b]...[end sentinel] 2014-06-09T17:56:09Z tinybla__ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T17:59:05Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T17:59:05Z AdmiralBumbleBee quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T17:59:08Z tinybl___ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T18:00:07Z AdmiralBumbleBee joined #lisp 2014-06-09T18:00:11Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T18:00:13Z tinyblak_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-09T18:02:23Z tinybla__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T18:02:43Z oleo__ is now known as oleo 2014-06-09T18:03:13Z malbertife joined #lisp 2014-06-09T18:03:57Z drmeister: stassats: Yes - that is very similar to what I have except I'm using a vector to contain the elements - so my sentinel is implicit. The last element of the vector is always the CDR of the last CONS of the list. 2014-06-09T18:05:31Z drmeister: In my serialization '(a b c d e . f) would be ([#|SYMBOL FOR CONS=|#CL:CONS] (#|empty plist placeholder|#) #5([a] [b] [c] [d] [e] [f])) 2014-06-09T18:05:57Z drmeister: So in the file it will be (CL:CONS () #5( a b c d e f)) 2014-06-09T18:06:22Z drmeister: and '(a . b) will be (CL:CONS () #2(a b)) 2014-06-09T18:06:32Z stassats: why does it need vectors? 2014-06-09T18:06:40Z drmeister: For vector data. 2014-06-09T18:06:55Z stassats: why not (CL:CONS () a b c d e f)? 2014-06-09T18:07:08Z stassats: and what is this plist thing? 2014-06-09T18:08:29Z drmeister: #(1 2 3 4 5) --> (CL:VECTOR (:element-type T :adjustable nil) #5( 1 2 3 4 5)) 2014-06-09T18:08:42Z drmeister: To store metadata about the object. 2014-06-09T18:09:16Z dim: what about (make-array :element-type T :initial-elements '(1 2 3 4 5) :adjustable nil) then? 2014-06-09T18:09:27Z Xach: (it is :initial-contents) 2014-06-09T18:10:02Z dim: (make-array 5 :element-type T :initial-contents '(1 2 3 4 5) :adjustable nil) actually 2014-06-09T18:10:09Z dim: thanks Xach 2014-06-09T18:10:20Z dim notes to always try first at the REPL 2014-06-09T18:10:29Z stassats: element-type defaults to T and adjustable to NIL 2014-06-09T18:10:48Z dim: even in drmeister implementation? ;-) (sorry) 2014-06-09T18:10:53Z drmeister: dim: That evaluates to #(1 2 3 4 5) which is serialized as I described above. I don't store the :initial-elements info because that is only used to construct the vector. 2014-06-09T18:11:50Z dim: I'm just wondering about your serialization format, if you're going to use that many bytes just serializing lisp code might be easier 2014-06-09T18:12:41Z jasom: dim: you are the 3rd or 4th person to say that, but drmeister has a "mostly working" format already and this is for a one-off usage 2014-06-09T18:12:52Z dim: ok then, I guess 2014-06-09T18:13:00Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-06-09T18:13:33Z drmeister: It's not just for one-off usage - I use it to communicate between 100,000 CL processes running on highly parallel supercomputers. 2014-06-09T18:13:41Z pnpuff left #lisp 2014-06-09T18:13:52Z dim: ala lfarm? 2014-06-09T18:14:04Z dim: (see https://github.com/lmj/lfarm) 2014-06-09T18:14:30Z stassats: drmeister: then why is it not compact? 2014-06-09T18:16:57Z jasom: drmeister: I meant that the particular use-case necessitating changing the CONS format is one-off (though the fact that you already use it heavily adds to confidence that it works, modulo the whole stack-usage issue) 2014-06-09T18:17:32Z ThePhoeron quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T18:19:42Z drmeister: stassats: 1) Because I've found human readable formats to be a great aid in debugging. 2) Because I can always compact it by running it through a compressor/decompressor. 3) Because I haven't had time to develop a compact format 4) Because I can always expose a C++ serialization library that is compact. 2014-06-09T18:20:29Z stassats: compact also equals fast 2014-06-09T18:21:27Z tinybl___ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-09T18:21:29Z drmeister: stassats: I prefer to take a slower pace in life? - I'm just kidding - yes faster = better. 2014-06-09T18:21:48Z drmeister: Ok, that worked: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/6761350c74a5ea92c81f 2014-06-09T18:22:12Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T18:22:14Z drmeister: test1.dat --> (CL:NIL (:ONLY (CL:CONS () #6( A B C D E CL:NIL )) ) ) 2014-06-09T18:22:28Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-09T18:22:29Z drmeister: test2.dat --> (CL:NIL (:ONLY (CL:CONS () #6( A B C D E F )) ) ) 2014-06-09T18:23:05Z drmeister: Let me see if I can come up with a circular list and see what it does. 2014-06-09T18:23:59Z drmeister: And my printer goes into an infinite loop - (sigh) 2014-06-09T18:24:20Z ThePhoeron joined #lisp 2014-06-09T18:24:27Z drmeister: What's the *print-XXX* that prevents lists from printing infinite loops? 2014-06-09T18:24:31Z bocaneri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T18:24:51Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-06-09T18:25:19Z stassats: circle 2014-06-09T18:25:33Z drmeister: Currently *b* = '(a b c d e . f) 2014-06-09T18:25:52Z drmeister: I went (setf (cdr (last *b*)) *b*) --> go boom 2014-06-09T18:26:29Z drmeister: Ok: (setq *print-circle* t) 2014-06-09T18:26:52Z drmeister: (setf (cdr (last *b*)) *b*) --> #1=(A B C D E . #1#) 2014-06-09T18:27:43Z stassats: protip: that's (nconc *b* *b*) 2014-06-09T18:28:22Z drmeister: Ho ho: archiving that goes into an infinite loop - hang on. 2014-06-09T18:31:46Z jasom: drmeister: archiving '(a . #1=(b c . #1#)) will be fun too 2014-06-09T18:32:30Z mr-foobar quit 2014-06-09T18:33:58Z jasom: drmeister: you'll need to make sure there is a reference in your hash table before you start parsing the elements 2014-06-09T18:34:18Z drmeister: Yeah - I'm looking at the order of operations now. 2014-06-09T18:34:47Z drmeister: Because they are wrong. 2014-06-09T18:34:48Z jasom: drmeister: you'll also need to add a reference each time you follow a cons (to allow the '(a . #1=(b c . #1#)) case to work) 2014-06-09T18:34:58Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-09T18:35:08Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-06-09T18:35:22Z ikki joined #lisp 2014-06-09T18:35:25Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-09T18:37:15Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-09T18:37:25Z stassats: i don't handle sharing, except for clos objects, because it's slow 2014-06-09T18:38:55Z zwer_f quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T18:39:09Z jxv joined #lisp 2014-06-09T18:40:07Z zwer_f joined #lisp 2014-06-09T18:40:49Z KCL_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-09T18:41:08Z ThePhoeron quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T18:42:00Z zickzackv joined #lisp 2014-06-09T18:42:21Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T18:42:35Z malbertife joined #lisp 2014-06-09T18:42:48Z ThePhoeron joined #lisp 2014-06-09T18:44:00Z oGMo: conspack handles all that, and is fast :P 2014-06-09T18:44:03Z drmeister: Every circular structure is going into an infinite loop when I try to serialize it - I'm pretty sure that wasn't happening with my old CONS archiver - I'm reverting and trying it that way to see if it's some quirk of the new way. 2014-06-09T18:45:00Z dbushenko joined #lisp 2014-06-09T18:45:06Z stassats: oGMo: but not handling it is even faster 2014-06-09T18:45:26Z rpg joined #lisp 2014-06-09T18:45:28Z oGMo: stassats: thus it's optional 2014-06-09T18:45:37Z oGMo: but, not being able to handle it just sucks 2014-06-09T18:45:58Z stassats: then it's optional for me too, i opted not to write the support because i don't need it 2014-06-09T18:46:48Z oGMo: actually that's the primary reason i wrote a serializer, in addition to byte-counting .. and the fact messagepack is very datatype-poor 2014-06-09T18:47:36Z oGMo: if you don't need references, other serialization works pretty well 2014-06-09T18:47:43Z archonix_ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T18:47:43Z drmeister: Ok, the old way handles circular lists properly: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/c995c374065844885c69 2014-06-09T18:48:16Z stassats: and sharing clos objects doesn't require hashtables 2014-06-09T18:49:36Z lukego quit (Quit: lukego) 2014-06-09T18:49:40Z oGMo: i use alists for custom encoding myself, because most clos stuff is slot/value and that's pretty compact 2014-06-09T18:50:30Z stassats: for clos slots, i use bitmaps to encode which slots are written 2014-06-09T18:50:42Z stassats: slots wich are equal to initforms are not written 2014-06-09T18:51:02Z oGMo: i encode/decode only the slots i care about and don't even note otherwise .. though again, you could if you wanted, nothing specific about what gets stored 2014-06-09T18:51:27Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-09T18:53:44Z drmeister: Do you require the class to be defined in the CL system before you deserialize it? 2014-06-09T18:53:51Z oGMo: no 2014-06-09T18:53:51Z drmeister: What if the slots don't match? 2014-06-09T18:54:06Z oGMo: you wrote the deserializer, why did you write it wrong? ;) 2014-06-09T18:54:37Z stassats: i do require classes to be present, slots can have a different position 2014-06-09T18:54:48Z stassats: or become missing, then they will be ignored 2014-06-09T18:55:09Z oGMo: i.e., you specialize a method to encode and decode .. you can return an alist of whatever you want, and it's relatively trivial to say "make an alist of these slots" and "reinitialize with these slots" 2014-06-09T18:55:34Z trumae joined #lisp 2014-06-09T18:56:19Z drmeister: But if you have a 1000 instances of the same class - you serialize the names of the slots every time? 2014-06-09T18:56:30Z stassats: i don't 2014-06-09T18:56:42Z stassats: the slots are written sequentially 2014-06-09T18:56:54Z stassats: plus a bitmap saying which slots to skip 2014-06-09T18:57:22Z oGMo: with conspack, symbols can be indexed and thus as small as a single byte, so trivially it's pretty compact .. or, you could simply return '((slot-values . #(values))) 2014-06-09T18:57:28Z oGMo: or whatever 2014-06-09T18:57:42Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-06-09T18:59:33Z stassats: in the past, i had each slot prefixed with a slot id, but saving a bitmap upfront is more compact 2014-06-09T18:59:54Z oGMo: and since you can have shared header bytes, you can have a byte for the list header, size-bytes size, a shared header byte, and then a bunch of unboxed conses, so it can be pretty compact 2014-06-09T19:01:13Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-09T19:05:18Z drmeister: Oh - duh - my code for traversing the list in the writer is going into an infinite loop because it's not checking if it's seen the SNode for a particular object. 2014-06-09T19:06:16Z meiji11 joined #lisp 2014-06-09T19:06:52Z meiji11: is there a control directive to make format insert a string into its output periodically, eg. every 50 characters print "\~%" ? 2014-06-09T19:07:04Z Saigut joined #lisp 2014-06-09T19:07:59Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2014-06-09T19:09:25Z drmeister: Ok, that's tricky. If it's a circular list - I can't generate a Vector for it. 2014-06-09T19:09:43Z AdmiralBumbleBee quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-06-09T19:09:54Z CatMtKing joined #lisp 2014-06-09T19:10:03Z AdmiralBumbleBee joined #lisp 2014-06-09T19:10:47Z Saigut_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-09T19:11:38Z jdz: meiji11: i think what you want is gray streams 2014-06-09T19:11:49Z prxq quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2014-06-09T19:11:54Z jdz: in singular 2014-06-09T19:12:02Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-09T19:12:03Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T19:12:06Z prxq joined #lisp 2014-06-09T19:13:24Z drmeister: The advantages of serializing (CONS car cdr) is not becoming apparent. 2014-06-09T19:13:31Z drmeister: s/not/now/ 2014-06-09T19:16:21Z drmeister: How does the lisp printer detect '(a . #1=(b c . #1#))) 2014-06-09T19:16:22Z stassats: meiji11: do you want to break up strings? 2014-06-09T19:17:13Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-09T19:17:14Z stassats: meiji11: try (format t "~{~<~%~1,50:;~a~^ ~>~}~%" (make-list 15 :initial-element (make-string 5 :initial-element #\a))) 2014-06-09T19:19:01Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T19:19:08Z trumae left #lisp 2014-06-09T19:19:24Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T19:19:52Z dim: ah, the format dsl and its wonders 2014-06-09T19:19:54Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-06-09T19:20:05Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-06-09T19:20:06Z olaversl joined #lisp 2014-06-09T19:20:24Z prxq joined #lisp 2014-06-09T19:20:59Z olaversl left #lisp 2014-06-09T19:21:08Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-09T19:23:09Z jasom: drmeister: you can still serialize it as your vector; #(a #1=#(b c #1#)) 2014-06-09T19:23:15Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-09T19:23:25Z jasom: drmeister: it might be easier to just write an iteration based version of your CONS serializing 2014-06-09T19:23:29Z drmeister: I think I want '#1=(a . #1#) to generate (CL:CONS () #1=#2(a (CL:CONS () #1(#1#)))) 2014-06-09T19:24:00Z stassats: what happen if it's shared with another cons? 2014-06-09T19:24:26Z drmeister: stassats: I don't know - I might be going down another rabbit hole here. 2014-06-09T19:24:41Z stassats: just get the bloody MPS to work! 2014-06-09T19:25:11Z drmeister: Tell me about it. Beneath my calm exterior I am a seething ocean of rage. 2014-06-09T19:25:31Z stassats: hack something ad-hock 2014-06-09T19:25:36Z stassats: or, ad-hack 2014-06-09T19:27:01Z drmeister: I don't think the static analyzer generates circular data structures - so I'm going to try and use what I just wrote to get the static analyzer to work. I'll have to revisit this later. 2014-06-09T19:28:16Z drmeister: It may solve my immediate problem but fail spectacularly later. I'll put in a test to check if the stack is becoming exhausted. I hate infinite loops. 2014-06-09T19:28:55Z stassats: do you not have stack protectors? 2014-06-09T19:28:55Z drewc joined #lisp 2014-06-09T19:29:19Z drmeister: What are those? 2014-06-09T19:29:30Z stassats: protected pages 2014-06-09T19:29:55Z drmeister: I don't know. Where do I get those? 2014-06-09T19:29:59Z jasom: drmeister: have an unmapped page at the ends of your stack; that way you segfault if you blow the stack. 2014-06-09T19:30:10Z jasom: (well as long as you blow it by less than a full page) 2014-06-09T19:30:37Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-09T19:30:38Z jasom: stassats: it sound's like he's using the OSX C stack. 2014-06-09T19:31:26Z drmeister: Oh - it segfaults alright - but I don't get any idea as to why. Then I spend minutes to hours scratching my head trying to figure out why it segfaulted. I put a function in that checks if the stack is about 80% full in functions that recurse deeply. It prints a warning and brings up my CL debugger. 2014-06-09T19:32:02Z jasom: drmeister: print a stack trace on segfault, that usually makes it painfully obvious 2014-06-09T19:32:08Z stassats: well, handle the sigsegv and check whether the fault address is inside the protected page, print a "stack overflown" message 2014-06-09T19:32:16Z drmeister: jasom: How do you do that? 2014-06-09T19:32:18Z jasom: or that 2014-06-09T19:32:25Z jasom: stassats: solution is simpler 2014-06-09T19:32:45Z prxq joined #lisp 2014-06-09T19:34:44Z ehaliewicz joined #lisp 2014-06-09T19:37:16Z drmeister: The static analyzer is running and generating CONSes the new way and I started merging the first half dozen and it's loading and merging them. So maybe I can get past this. 2014-06-09T19:39:07Z foreignFunction quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-09T19:40:01Z Lefeni quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-09T19:40:03Z drmeister: The fix is going to be tricky. What if I have two lists '(a b c . #1=( d e f)) '(j k l . #1#) and I serialize them out together or separate - the representation will be different in both cases. 2014-06-09T19:40:18Z sword quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-09T19:41:37Z drmeister: Maybe I should use a list as the second part of an SNode rather than a VECTOR. I can represent vector elements as a list but it doesn't work to represent a list as a vector. 2014-06-09T19:41:53Z foreignFunction joined #lisp 2014-06-09T19:42:16Z drmeister: I think the reason why I used a vector is because it's prepended by the number of elements #3(1 2 3) and so I can allocate the vector before I start reading the elements into it. 2014-06-09T19:42:34Z drmeister: I can always store the length of vectors in the plist of the SNode 2014-06-09T19:42:55Z stassats: you don't need to preallocate lists 2014-06-09T19:43:44Z Saigut_ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T19:44:55Z drmeister: Right but if I'm loading an SNode that represents a vector then I load the vectors data as a linked list of CONSes - then I allocate a vector the length of the list and copy the list of values from the CONS into the vector and then discard the CONS. I guess that's just the cost of doing business. 2014-06-09T19:45:20Z stassats: that gotta be slow 2014-06-09T19:45:25Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T19:45:57Z drmeister: I am using LISP afterall and not VESP (or whatever you would call the vector analogue of lisp if there ever was such a thing). 2014-06-09T19:46:09Z drmeister thinks maybe you'd call it Fortran. 2014-06-09T19:46:28Z Saigut quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-09T19:47:07Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-09T19:48:32Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T19:48:42Z oGMo: APL? ;) 2014-06-09T19:48:48Z p_l: ^ 2014-06-09T19:49:37Z lukego joined #lisp 2014-06-09T19:49:40Z Bike: it even has eval. language of the future 2014-06-09T19:49:51Z prxq joined #lisp 2014-06-09T19:51:05Z jasom: maybe clojure? They like to use vectors for binding lists 2014-06-09T19:51:49Z oGMo: really? seems to miss the point there 2014-06-09T19:52:38Z oGMo: although if you're working with immutable stuff i suppose it wouldn't matter 2014-06-09T19:52:57Z nug700 joined #lisp 2014-06-09T19:58:27Z prxq: drmeister: a simple solution might be to make the cons reader only recursive when the CAR is a cons. That should be fairly easy and help in many cases 2014-06-09T19:59:30Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-06-09T19:59:35Z dbushenko quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T20:01:04Z jasom: oGMo: I ment e.g. (let ((foo bar)) ...) becomes (let [[foo bar]] ...) which is equivalent to (let #(#(foo bar)) ...) 2014-06-09T20:01:20Z prxq quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2014-06-09T20:01:21Z jasom: so lambda lists, not binding lists 2014-06-09T20:01:30Z jasom: or whatever you want to call it 2014-06-09T20:02:36Z prxq joined #lisp 2014-06-09T20:02:36Z jasom: actually I think the let requires matched pairs to get rid of one level so it's (let [foo bar baz bif] ...) instead of (let ((foo bar) (baz bif)) ...) 2014-06-09T20:03:10Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-09T20:03:11Z rune1 joined #lisp 2014-06-09T20:03:31Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T20:03:36Z jasom: and apparently some forms can take either vectors or lists as you like (though convention is to use vectors for forms that establish bindings) 2014-06-09T20:04:01Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-09T20:04:24Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T20:09:44Z eMBee quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T20:10:38Z eMBee joined #lisp 2014-06-09T20:11:37Z lukego quit (Quit: lukego) 2014-06-09T20:12:03Z prxq joined #lisp 2014-06-09T20:12:29Z lukego joined #lisp 2014-06-09T20:16:57Z kirin` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T20:18:32Z kirin` joined #lisp 2014-06-09T20:19:24Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-09T20:20:32Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2014-06-09T20:22:19Z ggole quit 2014-06-09T20:23:02Z zwer_f_s joined #lisp 2014-06-09T20:23:03Z zwer_f quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-09T20:24:10Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-06-09T20:26:51Z ThePhoeron quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T20:27:32Z drmeister: The thing I hate about running the static analyzer is that I can't touch my code for 5 hours. I should do something about that like mirroring it. I've got itchy programming fingers. 2014-06-09T20:27:56Z nyef: drmeister: You can git clone off of a local repository. 2014-06-09T20:28:10Z Sir_herrbatka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-09T20:28:28Z nyef: Of course, if you have a five-hour test run going, your CPU and memory bandwidth are probably already swamped. 2014-06-09T20:28:43Z ThePhoeron joined #lisp 2014-06-09T20:28:49Z drmeister: Hmm, that's an interesting idea - I am using git now. So where would a clone live - in another directory? 2014-06-09T20:29:39Z nyef: Yeah, it's basically a full copy of the repository, but the upstream points to the directory that it was cloned from and the other remotes aren't there. 2014-06-09T20:29:51Z nyef: And you can push and pull between them as necessary. 2014-06-09T20:30:03Z the8thbit joined #lisp 2014-06-09T20:30:39Z lukego quit (Quit: lukego) 2014-06-09T20:30:41Z drmeister: Can I clone subdirectories of a repository? 2014-06-09T20:32:01Z nyef: I don't think that that would work, but I've never had cause to try it. 2014-06-09T20:32:10Z drmeister: You know what - I generate so much code using google "pump" and Python scripts and Lisp scripts it's going to be a major job untangling this. 2014-06-09T20:32:29Z Shinmera: Infinite canvas! http://shinmera.tymoon.eu/public/screenshot-2014.06.09-22:28:07.png 2014-06-09T20:32:32Z drmeister: That on top of that - yes, my machine is hosed while I run the analyzer. 2014-06-09T20:32:51Z Xach: Shinmera: cool! 2014-06-09T20:33:13Z drmeister: I'd be better off running it on another machine. I do have my office machine sitting idle - I can do it on there. 2014-06-09T20:33:18Z Shinmera: Now I should probably start focusing on the most important thing; bruhses... 2014-06-09T20:33:25Z Xach: Shinmera: have you ever read Alvy Ray Smith's stuff on image compositing? 2014-06-09T20:33:34Z Shinmera: I have not, no 2014-06-09T20:33:52Z Xach: Shinmera: it's really interesting and has a lot of ideas that don't seem to have made it mainstream since he sold his company to Microsoft long ago 2014-06-09T20:34:24Z Xach: A part of it is about how images aren't rectangles -- even though output formats might be, that's no reason to limit your tools in the same way. 2014-06-09T20:34:37Z Shinmera: I usually like to leave as much of the graphics processing up to libraries as possible, but I'll take a look. 2014-06-09T20:34:54Z meiji11: stassats: that'll do nicely, thanks. 2014-06-09T20:35:27Z _JokerDoom joined #lisp 2014-06-09T20:35:27Z jdz: anybody porting https://github.com/asciimoo/drawille to CL already? 2014-06-09T20:35:45Z Xach: Shinmera: a long time ago i was heavily involved with GIMP stuff and he posted to a cheesy forum I managed urging GIMP people not to treat images as rectangles and pixels as little squares. 2014-06-09T20:35:47Z jdz: for some values of porting 2014-06-09T20:35:56Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T20:35:57Z Xach: Shinmera: a couple of the GIMP maintainers (college kids) argued with him and told him he was crazy 2014-06-09T20:36:08Z Xach: Shinmera: later I learned he cofounded pixar... 2014-06-09T20:36:17Z Shinmera: Hah 2014-06-09T20:36:49Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-09T20:37:23Z Shinmera: I'm quite sure someone more experienced would have to take a look at Parasol some time to make it more performant as I'm currently mostly just doing things blind to see what works. 2014-06-09T20:38:04Z Shinmera: Or alternatively I'll have to buckle up and learn about that myself. Which probably wouldn't hurt either. 2014-06-09T20:38:05Z sroy quit (Quit: Quitte) 2014-06-09T20:38:16Z JokerDoom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-09T20:39:20Z prxq_ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T20:39:51Z Shinmera: Xach: would this be a good place to read about his stuff? http://alvyray.com/Memos/MemosCG.htm 2014-06-09T20:40:56Z Xach: Shinmera: yes 2014-06-09T20:41:13Z Shinmera: Alright, I'll read through some of that once I get the time to; thanks for the tip! 2014-06-09T20:41:44Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T20:42:21Z davazp joined #lisp 2014-06-09T20:43:18Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T20:44:05Z atgreen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T20:45:12Z prxq_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T20:50:32Z Rosario quit 2014-06-09T20:51:06Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-09T20:51:29Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-09T20:51:38Z aeth is now known as aeth- 2014-06-09T20:51:56Z aeth- is now known as aeth 2014-06-09T20:52:14Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-06-09T20:52:41Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-09T20:53:07Z jchochli quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T20:53:49Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2014-06-09T20:53:53Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-09T20:53:57Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-06-09T20:54:29Z _schulte_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T20:56:21Z mhd_ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T21:00:25Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-09T21:00:37Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-09T21:02:03Z ck_: That reminds me of a (microsoft research?) paper titled "A pixel is not a little square, A pixel is not a little square, A Pixel is not a little square .. and a Voxel is not a little cube" 2014-06-09T21:02:59Z prxq joined #lisp 2014-06-09T21:03:28Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T21:04:29Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T21:05:12Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-09T21:05:39Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-09T21:05:57Z Xach: ck_: that is by alvy ray smith 2014-06-09T21:06:05Z _schulte_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-09T21:06:28Z archonix_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-09T21:06:48Z Xach: it was by microsoft research because they bought his company and integrated the product (altamira composer) into some web image product they abandoned shortly thereafter 2014-06-09T21:06:49Z JuniorRoy1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T21:07:11Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-06-09T21:07:12Z Xach: he was working for microsoft research after the acquisition 2014-06-09T21:09:26Z JuniorRoy joined #lisp 2014-06-09T21:09:59Z dim: is it possible with the clisp screen package to output unicode? 2014-06-09T21:11:37Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-09T21:15:28Z drmeister: If pixels aren't little squares - what are they? Presumably not little rectangles. 2014-06-09T21:16:59Z sunwukong joined #lisp 2014-06-09T21:18:55Z nightfly: little circles 2014-06-09T21:19:09Z drmeister: Or is the author just being provocative? Because I am provoked. 2014-06-09T21:20:02Z drmeister: nightfly: And voxels are little spheres? That's just crazy-talk. 2014-06-09T21:20:05Z Xach: drmeister: samples 2014-06-09T21:20:15Z Shinmera: It's just a question of how you rasterize, I would presume is the idea. 2014-06-09T21:20:16Z Xach: The paper is good, check it out! 2014-06-09T21:20:41Z drmeister: If playing hundreds of hours of Minecraft with my daughter has taught me anything it's that voxels are cubes. 2014-06-09T21:21:37Z drmeister: (and don't go into the mines without plenty of wood) 2014-06-09T21:21:43Z jaimef quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-09T21:22:51Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-09T21:23:08Z heddwch joined #lisp 2014-06-09T21:23:58Z jchochli quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T21:24:03Z sunwukong quit (Quit: Bye) 2014-06-09T21:24:29Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-06-09T21:24:54Z Xach hopes to work on a minecraft-oriented CL project soon 2014-06-09T21:25:17Z Zag: Minecraft-oriented? 2014-06-09T21:25:32Z Shinmera quit (Quit: brb) 2014-06-09T21:25:41Z Xach: Minecraft-oriented. 2014-06-09T21:25:50Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-09T21:26:02Z Zag: Ahah, indeed. 2014-06-09T21:26:20Z jdz: Xach: personal? 2014-06-09T21:26:33Z drmeister: Xach: I dreamed of doing that as well - Common Lisp code for Minecraft - it would be awesome. 2014-06-09T21:27:48Z Xach: jdz: yes 2014-06-09T21:28:07Z Xach: But if I got just 10% of the overall minecraft market, it could be worth hundreds 2014-06-09T21:28:48Z Denommus: ... Minecraft-oriented CL project? 2014-06-09T21:28:50Z yrk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T21:28:52Z jdz: that's like... web scale? 2014-06-09T21:28:55Z jaimef joined #lisp 2014-06-09T21:29:01Z jchochli quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-09T21:30:04Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T21:30:54Z jdz: Xach: is it going to be a web site where users can enter their minecraft ids/usernames and see stuff? 2014-06-09T21:31:04Z Xach: No. 2014-06-09T21:31:52Z nightfly: Minecraft clone? 2014-06-09T21:33:49Z on joined #lisp 2014-06-09T21:34:13Z on is now known as Guest95278 2014-06-09T21:34:25Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-09T21:36:08Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T21:36:40Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: activity closed by mental burnout) 2014-06-09T21:38:30Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-09T21:38:40Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T21:39:07Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-09T21:42:17Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-09T21:42:40Z rune1 quit (Quit: rune1) 2014-06-09T21:44:05Z dim: well if the idea is worth hundreds I bet Xach will keep a chance at implementing it first ;-) 2014-06-09T21:47:32Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T21:49:02Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-09T21:49:53Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-06-09T21:50:12Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2014-06-09T21:50:12Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-06-09T21:51:35Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T21:52:42Z Code_Man` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-09T21:54:15Z Shinmera quit (Quit: ZzzZ) 2014-06-09T21:55:02Z rszeno joined #lisp 2014-06-09T21:57:28Z Pullphinger quit 2014-06-09T21:57:51Z askatasuna quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-09T21:58:23Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-09T21:58:32Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T21:59:27Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2014-06-09T21:59:38Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-09T22:00:59Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-09T22:01:03Z Rptx joined #lisp 2014-06-09T22:02:16Z normanrichards joined #lisp 2014-06-09T22:02:26Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 2014-06-09T22:02:28Z normanrichards quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-06-09T22:05:44Z puchacz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T22:06:45Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T22:08:22Z clop2 joined #lisp 2014-06-09T22:10:53Z yrk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T22:11:18Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T22:13:58Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T22:15:53Z Neptu_ joined #lisp 2014-06-09T22:16:49Z foreignFunction quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-09T22:17:05Z Neptu quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-09T22:17:05Z z0d quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-09T22:17:05Z noncom quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-09T22:19:09Z davazp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T22:19:27Z davazp joined #lisp 2014-06-09T22:20:46Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2014-06-09T22:20:57Z isis__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-09T22:21:08Z Vivitron quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T22:22:52Z puchacz joined #lisp 2014-06-09T22:24:38Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T22:24:40Z CatMtKing quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-06-09T22:25:47Z CatMtKing joined #lisp 2014-06-09T22:26:35Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-06-09T22:27:18Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T22:28:12Z noncom joined #lisp 2014-06-09T22:31:41Z joneshf-laptop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T22:31:46Z schoppenhauer quit (Quit: Adé) 2014-06-09T22:32:28Z z0d joined #lisp 2014-06-09T22:32:28Z z0d quit (Changing host) 2014-06-09T22:32:28Z z0d joined #lisp 2014-06-09T22:32:49Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2014-06-09T22:34:19Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T22:36:32Z davazp quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-09T22:37:43Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-09T22:38:17Z blakbunnie27 quit (Quit: EliteBNC free bnc service - http://elitebnc.org - be a part of the Elite!) 2014-06-09T22:38:43Z Sgeo joined #lisp 2014-06-09T22:40:01Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-09T22:40:29Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-09T22:42:53Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2014-06-09T22:46:09Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2014-06-09T22:49:41Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-09T22:50:19Z JuanDaugherty left #lisp 2014-06-09T22:50:57Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-09T22:52:47Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-09T22:54:00Z rpg quit (Quit: rpg) 2014-06-09T23:00:15Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-09T23:00:47Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T23:01:31Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-09T23:01:48Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-09T23:02:05Z mal_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-09T23:03:51Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-06-09T23:05:46Z pillton joined #lisp 2014-06-09T23:13:08Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-09T23:16:24Z jasom: a pixel is not a little square, it is a single sampled point on a continuous 2d space 2014-06-09T23:17:01Z pillton: jasom: amen. 2014-06-09T23:17:25Z aretecode quit (Quit: Toodaloo) 2014-06-09T23:17:39Z jasom: If your input is sufficiently bandwidth-limited (which in practice it seems it never is for video) then you can unambiguously reconstruct the entire 2d space 2014-06-09T23:18:21Z nyef: This just leads to the physics question: Is space quantum or continuous? 2014-06-09T23:19:03Z jasom: nyef: not really; at the level that optics is working the space is effectively continuous as optics have resolutions far lower than any physical quantization 2014-06-09T23:19:41Z nyef sighs. 2014-06-09T23:19:42Z JuanitoJons quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-09T23:19:46Z Bike: psh, next you'll say my camera can't detect single photons 2014-06-09T23:19:54Z nyef: Next thing I know, you'll be telling me that there are no quantum jumps. 2014-06-09T23:20:31Z stassats: next thing you'll tell me this is a channel about lisp 2014-06-09T23:20:47Z cyphase joined #lisp 2014-06-09T23:21:14Z nyef: Hah! Yeah, right. 2014-06-09T23:21:49Z nyef: Like this wasn't originally #sbcl, and didn't have late-night gun-control debates on a regular basis. 2014-06-09T23:24:51Z drewc: are we talking about D-wave again? That was entangled code indeed. 2014-06-09T23:25:13Z jasom: well at least d-wave uses lisp (though I don't recall if it's common lisp) 2014-06-09T23:25:31Z axion: heh did not know that. that is awesome 2014-06-09T23:26:09Z drewc: it was sort of CL ... or rather CL was used to build the sexps which were compiled to ... on uncompiled to ... 2014-06-09T23:26:10Z antoszka: IIRC that was supposed to be common lisp. 2014-06-09T23:26:16Z drewc: s/on/or/ 2014-06-09T23:29:47Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-09T23:30:58Z CatMtKing quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-09T23:31:49Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-09T23:34:45Z didi joined #lisp 2014-06-09T23:39:22Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2014-06-09T23:40:15Z didi: I'm using a `defstruct' as a proxy for a remote object. I want then to use `setf' to set one of its slots, but I want to run arbitrary code, so I can send messages to the remote system to reflect the new state of this object. Is it possible to declare such `setf' function? 2014-06-09T23:40:49Z stassats: sure it is 2014-06-09T23:41:02Z didi: I knew it. CL is amazing. 2014-06-09T23:41:46Z didi: stassats: Just (defun (setf ...)) or can I add something to `defstruct' declaration? 2014-06-09T23:42:09Z stassats: just defun (setf 2014-06-09T23:42:32Z didi: stassats: Thank you. 2014-06-09T23:43:15Z stassats: you just need to choose some other name for the original functions 2014-06-09T23:43:50Z stassats: and of course you'd be better off with CLOS 2014-06-09T23:45:05Z didi: Hum. If I have to use another name, I think I'll use CLOS then. 2014-06-09T23:45:37Z clop2 joined #lisp 2014-06-09T23:46:23Z nyef: You might consider a conc-name option and defining macros for the readers instead. 2014-06-09T23:46:31Z Denommus: didi: a good thing about CLOS is that you can control whether the function runs before or after the assignment 2014-06-09T23:46:42Z pillton: didi: I'd probably do it using CLOS. 2014-06-09T23:46:45Z didi: Denommus: Method combination? 2014-06-09T23:47:11Z nisstyre quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-09T23:47:25Z didi: A :after method seems ideal. 2014-06-09T23:47:41Z stassats: mop s-v-u-c 2014-06-09T23:47:41Z specbot: slot-value-using-class: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/slot-value-using-class.html 2014-06-09T23:47:47Z nisstyre joined #lisp 2014-06-09T23:48:13Z JuniorRoy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-09T23:48:40Z stassats: mop s-m-u-c 2014-06-09T23:48:40Z specbot: slot-makunbound-using-class: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/slot-makunbound-using-class.html 2014-06-09T23:48:54Z Denommus: didi: IIRC, you can do a defmethod for that even if the type in question is a struct instead of a class 2014-06-09T23:49:12Z stassats: you can't 2014-06-09T23:49:33Z Denommus: stassats: really? 2014-06-09T23:49:38Z stassats: structure accessors aren't methods 2014-06-09T23:49:42Z Denommus: ah 2014-06-09T23:50:08Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-06-09T23:51:09Z Denommus: stassats: couldn't you make a defgeneric to override it as a method, though? 2014-06-09T23:51:23Z Denommus: stassats: (not that it would be a good idea, it's just a thought) 2014-06-09T23:51:47Z stassats: no, it may be a setf expander, which takes priority over setf functions 2014-06-09T23:52:09Z Denommus: hm 2014-06-09T23:52:24Z Denommus: okay 2014-06-09T23:52:47Z Denommus: at the end of the day, I'd probably use DEFCLASS every time I wanted a struct-like object anyway :P 2014-06-09T23:53:25Z pillton: didi: Don't forget to test that the state of the local object has changed before communicating with the remote object. I always forget that. 2014-06-09T23:53:38Z didi: pillton: Roger. 2014-06-09T23:54:14Z stassats: structures are faster, but if you having network communications, it will dwarf those differences 2014-06-09T23:55:23Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2014-06-09T23:58:05Z Denommus: the expressiveness power of DEFCLASS surpasses the performance of DEFSTRUCT for me. Besides, if I wanted performance, I'd just use Rust instead of CL 2014-06-09T23:59:11Z chu joined #lisp 2014-06-10T00:00:32Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-10T00:00:47Z pillton: Denomus: Bah. I can train a support vector machine on 6 million images in two minutes. It is all written in common lisp. 2014-06-10T00:01:01Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-10T00:01:23Z krid joined #lisp 2014-06-10T00:01:44Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T00:01:47Z Denommus: pillton: calm down, I'm not trying to imply that CL is slow, I'm just saying that the performance differences between DEFSTRUCT and DEFCLASS are negligible, just like using Rust does not matter for me in most cases 2014-06-10T00:02:40Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T00:03:09Z pillton: Denommus: I am calm. I have the little book next to me. 2014-06-10T00:04:42Z krid quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T00:05:30Z krid joined #lisp 2014-06-10T00:06:24Z tbarletz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T00:10:48Z nug700_ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T00:10:55Z FracV quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T00:11:12Z Bike quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-10T00:11:22Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-10T00:11:37Z nug700 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-10T00:12:34Z zophy joined #lisp 2014-06-10T00:13:37Z tbarletz joined #lisp 2014-06-10T00:18:00Z zRecursive: pillton: do you run SBCL or CCL to achieve that result ? 2014-06-10T00:18:10Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-10T00:20:02Z pillton: zRecursive: SBCL. 2014-06-10T00:21:01Z zRecursive: "6 million images in 2 minutes" is great ! 2014-06-10T00:21:17Z dmiles_afk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T00:21:36Z pillton: zRecursive: We are writing a paper on it at the moment. I will send you a link when it is finished. 2014-06-10T00:22:00Z zRecursive: pillton: thanks 2014-06-10T00:24:22Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-10T00:30:39Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-10T00:33:41Z zz_karupa is now known as karupa 2014-06-10T00:34:00Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T00:34:00Z Denommus: SBCL is an amazing compiler 2014-06-10T00:34:22Z Denommus: I would never think of a dynamically typed, metaprogramming-oriented language as something as fast as SBCL 2014-06-10T00:34:56Z Denommus: but then SBCL comes and gives me type inference on the compiler level for it to not worry about runtime type checking when it doesn't need to 2014-06-10T00:36:29Z gadmyth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T00:36:43Z zRecursive: Denommus: If SBCL makes smaller image, it would be much better 2014-06-10T00:36:47Z zophy joined #lisp 2014-06-10T00:37:26Z Denommus: zRecursive: it needs the whole runtime environment, which is quite big 2014-06-10T00:37:28Z axion: they are already pretty small with gzip 2014-06-10T00:39:49Z zRecursive: i know it, but i fell SBCL can improve it as CCL does ... 2014-06-10T00:41:22Z zRecursive: Now SBCL image almost doubles the size of CCL image 2014-06-10T00:41:54Z axion: i have ~20 large systems compiled to 15MB. not sure of the benefits for decreasing that size in an age where everyone has too much storage space 2014-06-10T00:42:34Z Xach: it would be nice to have it all 2014-06-10T00:44:32Z zRecursive: axion: The SBCL stumpwm is 40M vs the CCL stumpwm 25M 2014-06-10T00:44:46Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-10T00:45:24Z axion: go write a tree shaker algo :) 2014-06-10T00:45:37Z axion: to most it perfectly suffices 2014-06-10T00:45:56Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-10T00:46:19Z didi: zRecursive: I think you might be lacking perspective or something. 2014-06-10T00:47:04Z zRecursive: i am using SBCL now, and i just feel SBCL can improve it ... 2014-06-10T00:48:06Z Denommus: well, besides the image size, which is mostly irrelevant nowadays (unless you're talking about mobile), SBCL is very great 2014-06-10T00:48:50Z zRecursive: sure, how about running SBCL on android ? 2014-06-10T00:49:55Z Denommus: zRecursive: AFAIK, it is running in Android nicely 2014-06-10T00:50:27Z zRecursive: Denommus: great, i want to but a android tablet 2014-06-10T00:50:47Z zRecursive: s/but/buy 2014-06-10T00:51:19Z nyef: It feels like only a couple months ago we were still struggling with getting SBCL to run on ARM at all. 2014-06-10T00:51:43Z zeroish quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T00:51:50Z clop2 joined #lisp 2014-06-10T00:54:01Z JuniorRoy joined #lisp 2014-06-10T00:54:59Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-10T00:56:07Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-10T00:56:43Z boogie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T00:57:07Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-10T00:59:04Z Denommus: nyef: wasn't it a couple of weeks ago? XD 2014-06-10T01:01:52Z didi quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-10T01:02:01Z wgl joined #lisp 2014-06-10T01:02:24Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T01:09:34Z nyef: Forward-port was May 10. The last major stability fix was April 26. 2014-06-10T01:12:32Z axion: i remember about a month ago one of the regulars here was saying how SBCL had some major problems on ARM...i cant recall what or who said it 2014-06-10T01:12:40Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-06-10T01:13:37Z samskulls joined #lisp 2014-06-10T01:13:42Z nyef: Oh, there are probably still a few nasty issues, but it's probably fine for light use, possibly even serious use. 2014-06-10T01:17:07Z drmeister: Oh thank goodness. The static analyzer ran - it generated 165 files full of serialized descriptions of C++ classes - I was able to merge them into one file containing information on instance variables, methods, base classes for all 177,003 C++ classes in my application. The final file is 111MB condensed from ~900MB in the 165 files. 2014-06-10T01:19:45Z drmeister: What a painful haul that was - now it's time to distill this into C++ code that the MPS library will use to manage my applications memory. 2014-06-10T01:20:28Z DataLinkDroid: drmeister: i highly suspect you are talking about major awesomeness here. Well done! :) 2014-06-10T01:21:29Z drmeister: Thank you but let's see if this works. It's taken several months to get to this point - hopefully it will work... 2014-06-10T01:22:03Z JamesNZ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T01:22:03Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2014-06-10T01:24:02Z nyef: I have to wonder, would it have been easier to "just" add the extra support for C++ exceptions and templates to an existing lisp, rather than write your own? 2014-06-10T01:24:19Z jxv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T01:28:02Z sid_cypher joined #lisp 2014-06-10T01:29:35Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-10T01:31:19Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-06-10T01:31:33Z drmeister: nyef: I don't know - there are a hundred decisions I had to make to maintain interoperability with C++. I would have had to essentially rewrite something like ECL - would I have been able to do it that way? I dunno. 2014-06-10T01:32:17Z ikki quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-10T01:32:44Z Hydan_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T01:33:01Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-10T01:34:55Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-10T01:36:23Z lukego joined #lisp 2014-06-10T01:41:01Z orthecreedence joined #lisp 2014-06-10T01:41:26Z JuniorRoy quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-10T01:41:42Z JuniorRoy joined #lisp 2014-06-10T01:43:00Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-10T01:44:45Z nialo_x joined #lisp 2014-06-10T01:44:45Z drmeister: Here's some of the stuff I had to do: 1) Use C++ exceptions for all non-local exits (CATCH/THROW, BLOCK/RETURN-FROM, TAGBODY-GO, UNWIND-PROTECT) 2) Generate blocks of code to construct LOAD-TIME-VALUE objects and literals using C++ function calls that run at load-time. 3) Use C++ template programming to build at C++ compile time interfaces between Lisp and C++ 4) Write a LambdaListHandler class that converts argu 2014-06-10T01:44:45Z drmeister: ments passed in ActivationFrames into C++ calls. Could someone have done all this with the baggage that comes with an existing system? 2014-06-10T01:45:58Z drmeister: I also had to write a CL interpreter to bootstrap the CL compiler. The CL interpreter needs to be able to interface with the LLVM C++ library. 2014-06-10T01:46:00Z nyef: I think that the truly obnoxious item out of that list is the unwind integration. 2014-06-10T01:46:36Z drmeister: ECL has a bytecode interpreter but it won't talk to C++. 2014-06-10T01:46:43Z drmeister: What's obnoxious about it? 2014-06-10T01:47:52Z nialo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-10T01:48:48Z nyef: On the one side, the implementation will already have some unwind mechanism that you'd have to replace. On the other, most unwind libraries these days are table-based, so you'd be looking at generating suitable tables for Lisp code in the context of an existing compiler. 2014-06-10T01:49:29Z nyef: The exception (ha-ha) thus far has been Win32, and even THAT was nasty to get working in SBCL, and for all I know could STILL have problems with multiple UWPs in the same function. 2014-06-10T01:50:11Z nyef: (Why the hell the UWP control blocks arent' DX-allocated in the first place I have no idea, it'd've prevented the issue from coming up in the first place.) 2014-06-10T01:50:27Z zolk3ri quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-10T01:51:24Z drmeister: I see. I wrote a macro that generates LLVM exception handling code that essentially gives me a try/catch/cleanup construct. The cleanup clause is guaranteed to run after the try block no matter what happens in the try block. 2014-06-10T01:51:45Z drmeister: What does "DX-allocated" mean? 2014-06-10T01:52:09Z orthecreedence: drmeister: sorry to jump in without context...what are you working on? 2014-06-10T01:52:10Z nyef: Stack-allocated, really, which only happens for values with dynamic-extent. 2014-06-10T01:52:45Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-06-10T01:53:52Z orthecreedence: nyet, at the risk of sounding stupid, how do you stack allocate a UWP? is it an actual object? 2014-06-10T01:54:32Z orthecreedence: i have no knowledge of the inner workings of any lisp compilers (although i may start looking into it shortly) 2014-06-10T01:54:49Z nyef: orthecreedence: The control block is in SBCL, and also in Win32 (see SEH record). It stores a pointer to the next unwind block, the current catch block, and an entry point for the cleanup function. 2014-06-10T01:55:03Z DataLinkDroid: orthecreedence: drmeister is working on a CL compiler in C++ 2014-06-10T01:56:06Z orthecreedence: i see (i think) 2014-06-10T01:56:52Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2014-06-10T01:56:55Z drmeister: Exception handling in LLVM is all done using the Itanium zero-cost exception handling ABI. Exceptions don't cost anything (but code space) unless they are thrown. 2014-06-10T01:57:06Z orthecreedence: awesome, is there a project site/repo for it yet? 2014-06-10T01:57:14Z orthecreedence: would love to poke around 2014-06-10T01:57:20Z drmeister: orthecreedence: Two weeks. 2014-06-10T01:57:39Z nyef: I want that kind of exception handling for SBCL, but don't have the project bandwidth right now for fixing up the compiler to generate suitable tables. 2014-06-10T01:58:23Z orthecreedence: cool! 2014-06-10T01:58:34Z orthecreedence: how are you liking llvm? 2014-06-10T01:59:29Z drmeister: LLVM is great. It provides a lot of functionality that I don't need to write. 2014-06-10T02:00:07Z orthecreedence: i've read a lot about it but haven't had a chance to use it for anything (never written a compiler). 2014-06-10T02:00:28Z harish joined #lisp 2014-06-10T02:00:38Z orthecreedence: but recently i've been getting intot he world of embedding (mainly with ECL) and been getting really interested about how lisp works under the hood in general 2014-06-10T02:01:28Z drmeister: Here's my code generator for UNWIND-PROTECT: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/c59f9e2280efd3577209 2014-06-10T02:01:55Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-10T02:02:17Z replcated quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-10T02:02:37Z drmeister: The key is the WITH-TRY macro - the code after the (CLEANUP) clause is the cleanup-form. 2014-06-10T02:03:58Z replcated joined #lisp 2014-06-10T02:04:35Z Guest95278 left #lisp 2014-06-10T02:05:06Z orthecreedence: cool, can't say i get much of it, but it does make some things clearer 2014-06-10T02:06:03Z drmeister: My compiler is primitive at the moment - it takes S-expressions straight to code - I don't generate an intermediate AST. 2014-06-10T02:06:38Z orthecreedence: does an AST allow better optimizations? 2014-06-10T02:07:08Z Bike: intermediate representations can help, yes 2014-06-10T02:07:26Z zophy joined #lisp 2014-06-10T02:07:39Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-10T02:07:48Z boogie joined #lisp 2014-06-10T02:09:04Z orthecreedence: ok makes sense 2014-06-10T02:10:23Z zwer_f_s quit 2014-06-10T02:10:34Z drmeister: Yeah - when I have add an AST layer then I can do things like decide if TAGBODY/GO special operators are in the same function or in separate functions and use local jumps if they are in the same function. That would speed things up a lot. Same thing with BLOCK/RETURN-FROM 2014-06-10T02:10:41Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-10T02:11:13Z drmeister: I could also do escape analysis (I think) and figure out what local variables can go on the stack and which ones have to go on the heap. 2014-06-10T02:11:28Z drmeister: I'm still a bit fuzzy on that. 2014-06-10T02:12:00Z nyef: SBCL does both some amount of the exit analysis that you speak of and the escape analysis. 2014-06-10T02:12:47Z drmeister: Basically, I could build an AST and then put a little bit of time into coming up with better code based on the AST. 2014-06-10T02:12:47Z nyef: Hunh. I actually wrote the escape analysis for closed-over variables. 2014-06-10T02:13:12Z drmeister: nyef: Did you - have we talked about this? 2014-06-10T02:13:33Z nyef: Have you considered the now-classic continuation passing style internal representation, btw? 2014-06-10T02:13:44Z nyef: Umm... I don't think we've talked about this precisely... 2014-06-10T02:14:03Z drmeister: Yeah - I read about it in L.I.S.P. it seemed more of a Scheme thing. 2014-06-10T02:14:35Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-06-10T02:15:13Z drmeister: Do any Common Lisps use CPS? 2014-06-10T02:15:19Z Bike: i thought it just went out of vogue in favor of SSA 2014-06-10T02:15:34Z drmeister: SSA! - SSA! - SSA! 2014-06-10T02:15:34Z n2kra joined #lisp 2014-06-10T02:15:37Z nyef: Have you read any of the MacLachlan stuff about Python? 2014-06-10T02:15:42Z drmeister: Sorry - LLVM uses SSA. 2014-06-10T02:15:51Z drmeister: Nope. 2014-06-10T02:15:52Z nyef: SSA is isomorphic to CPS. 2014-06-10T02:16:09Z drmeister: I've heard that. I'm pretty comfortable with SSA. 2014-06-10T02:16:19Z n2kra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T02:17:14Z n2kra joined #lisp 2014-06-10T02:17:23Z n2kra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T02:17:50Z nyef: In "The Python Compiler for CMU Common Lisp", MacLachlan says (of ICR, meaning what we now call IR1) "It combines most of the desirable properties of CPS with direct support for data flow analysis." 2014-06-10T02:18:03Z zwer quit 2014-06-10T02:18:17Z drmeister: Oh - the Python compiler for CMU-CL - yeah I read some of that stuff. 2014-06-10T02:18:43Z drmeister: I thought you meant Python the language. 2014-06-10T02:19:10Z nyef: I usually say "that-other-python" when I mean that other Python. (-; 2014-06-10T02:19:59Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-10T02:20:31Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-10T02:21:25Z drmeister: It's been a while since I looked at that stuff. Would you recommend using CPS? I was going to generate an AST sort of like the Clang C++ AST (simpler of course) and work from that - is that a bad idea? 2014-06-10T02:21:52Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-10T02:22:01Z nyef: Honestly, this is the part of the SBCL compiler that I understand the LEAST. 2014-06-10T02:22:35Z drmeister: But you wrote the escape analysis stuff. 2014-06-10T02:22:54Z nyef: Sure, it's an aspect of physical environment analysis, really. 2014-06-10T02:23:21Z nyef: I'm not sure how much of it I actually wrote at this point. It was something like three and a half years ago. 2014-06-10T02:24:31Z drmeister: I'd love to learn more about it from you at some point. 2014-06-10T02:24:59Z drmeister: Right now that part of my brain that is dedicated to that stuff is stone cold. 2014-06-10T02:25:13Z drmeister: All the blood is in the garbage collection parts. 2014-06-10T02:25:36Z nyef: Heh. I know how that goes. 2014-06-10T02:25:38Z araujo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-10T02:25:40Z echo-area joined #lisp 2014-06-10T02:26:23Z araujo joined #lisp 2014-06-10T02:26:50Z varjag_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-06-10T02:26:52Z Rptx quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-10T02:27:08Z n2kra joined #lisp 2014-06-10T02:27:28Z n2kra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T02:28:18Z n2kra joined #lisp 2014-06-10T02:30:13Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-10T02:31:17Z nyef: Looks like the analysis that I wrote was against lexical variables that are mutated and closed-over. 2014-06-10T02:32:14Z nyef: And it's basically a check to see if any of the closures are permitted to escape. Not a full escape analysis, sorry. 2014-06-10T02:33:26Z nyef: Also took a couple of months to get right. 2014-06-10T02:34:25Z nyef: But it was the bit that allowed us to elide value-cell object creation in favor of storing a pointer to the home stack frame of the variables in certain cases. 2014-06-10T02:36:50Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-10T02:37:02Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-06-10T02:41:18Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T02:43:24Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-10T02:45:57Z JuanDaugherty: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-fuller-lisp-ddt/ are there freely available working implementations of that? 2014-06-10T02:47:00Z ivan\ quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-10T02:47:44Z drmeister: nyef: What are value-cells? They sound like my "activation-frames". Arrays of pointers to objects that maintain bindings. 2014-06-10T02:48:38Z nyef: drmeister: They're objects that hold values, for use in closures, for LOAD-TIME-VALUE, and (IIRC) something to do with non-local exit in certain cases. 2014-06-10T02:48:51Z JuanDaugherty .oO( or is 'LISP' an acronym?) 2014-06-10T02:49:11Z nyef: JuanDaugherty: Cute, but I doubt most people here care about the Locator/ID Separation Protocol. 2014-06-10T02:49:32Z nyef: (RFC6830, if you want to look it up.) 2014-06-10T02:50:00Z JuanDaugherty: thx, wasn't catching that's what it was 2014-06-10T02:50:03Z drmeister: Where you say "But it was the bit that allowed us to elide value-cell object creation in favor of storing a pointer to the home stack frame of the variables in certain cases." - That sounds like what I'm looking for. 2014-06-10T02:53:53Z drmeister: All of my objects are stored in linked lists of frames. Every access to a lexical value is done using two integers, one that defines how high up in the linked list of activation frames that value lies and the second defines the index within that activation frame. 2014-06-10T02:54:56Z nyef: drmeister: http://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/sbcl/ci/fb26039e896a6d89f86274b714f5be25b5fc8603/ is pretty much the start of it. 2014-06-10T02:55:09Z JuanDaugherty: is sb-concurrency obsolete? 2014-06-10T02:55:26Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-10T02:56:03Z nyef: There's one commit earlier in the sequence, it runs to .18 or so, and then sporadically until some point the following January. 2014-06-10T02:57:20Z nyef: In a way, I'm rather impressed that you're writing your own implementation, and getting as far as you have. I have enough trouble hacking on SBCL every so often. (-: 2014-06-10T02:58:58Z drmeister: I've got to get this thing out there. (sigh) 2014-06-10T03:00:46Z zRecursive I donot trust ECL which sometimes creates not running image 2014-06-10T03:01:40Z drmeister: I'm pretty happy with how it's progressing - I've solved every problem I've encountered - with the help of a lot of kind strangers on IRC. 2014-06-10T03:02:05Z JuanDaugherty: can you load a working image yet? 2014-06-10T03:02:54Z zRecursive: drmeister: "it's progressing" means ECL ? 2014-06-10T03:03:04Z JuanDaugherty: no his thing 2014-06-10T03:03:18Z zRecursive: ok 2014-06-10T03:03:31Z JuanDaugherty: you share a dislike of ECL 2014-06-10T03:03:33Z drmeister: zRecursive: No - my thing - which is stole all of the Common Lisp code from ECL - so sorta. 2014-06-10T03:03:41Z jxv joined #lisp 2014-06-10T03:04:10Z zRecursive: neat 2014-06-10T03:04:12Z drmeister: Compiling to "C" is soooo 1990's. 2014-06-10T03:04:29Z drmeister is just kidding - I have a lot of respect for the developers of ECL - it's very clean code. 2014-06-10T03:04:31Z Zhivago: Just compile to haskell. 2014-06-10T03:04:50Z drmeister: Javascript - that's the future. 2014-06-10T03:04:57Z zRecursive: drmeister: Is ECL still maintained ? 2014-06-10T03:04:59Z drmeister: Or last week - one of the two. 2014-06-10T03:05:14Z drmeister: I don't know - I don't keep track. 2014-06-10T03:05:43Z drmeister: The mailing list is still active. 2014-06-10T03:05:55Z poindontcare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T03:06:09Z JuanDaugherty fwiw gbb-open turns out will be determinative for me in re sb-concurrency 2014-06-10T03:06:43Z zRecursive: It is ecl-13.5.1 in my OS repo. 2014-06-10T03:07:50Z Rptx joined #lisp 2014-06-10T03:09:18Z nyef: Heh. Apparently, the newest version of SBCL for my system is 1.0.57. 2014-06-10T03:09:52Z drmeister: Can't I write a defmethod like this: (defmethod fixer-macro-name ((eql :smart-ptr-fix)) "SMART_PTR_FIX") 2014-06-10T03:10:09Z zRecursive: nyef: sbcl -v => SBCL 1.2.0.26-124d92d 2014-06-10T03:10:17Z drmeister: Is there something wrong with an EQL specializer for a keyword symbol? 2014-06-10T03:10:43Z JuanDaugherty checks the log for happy endings with lparallel 2014-06-10T03:10:58Z Bike: drmeister: seems fine to me 2014-06-10T03:11:19Z drmeister: It's the first time I've used an EQL specializer. 2014-06-10T03:11:34Z nyef: zRecursive: I'm running some derivative of 1.2.0.49 on my local system right now. 2014-06-10T03:12:02Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2014-06-10T03:12:07Z drmeister: ECL doesn't like it either. 2014-06-10T03:12:09Z Bike: drmeister: er well you need a variable name :p 2014-06-10T03:12:20Z Bike: whoops 2014-06-10T03:13:36Z nyef: drmeister: Bike is right, the parameter list should be on the order of ((foo (eql :smart-ptr-fix))). 2014-06-10T03:13:53Z nyef: (Possibly followed by a (declare (ignore foo)), but I'm less certain about that.) 2014-06-10T03:13:54Z drmeister: Oh. 2014-06-10T03:14:31Z drmeister: Ah yes, I see - my eyes skipped over the variable. 2014-06-10T03:14:40Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-10T03:14:51Z drmeister: I don't see parentheses anymore and sometimes I don't see code either. 2014-06-10T03:15:18Z drmeister: I've transitioned to a higher plane of programming where I see whatever the hell I want to see. 2014-06-10T03:15:20Z Bike: nyef: you don't need an ignore for anything with a specializer. some weird obscure rules here that sbcl happens to be mildly nonconformant about 2014-06-10T03:15:52Z nyef: Hah! My last compiler hack was to show the compiler some dead code... It found some dead code that I'm having trouble seeing. On the order of single variable names, even! 2014-06-10T03:16:03Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-10T03:18:48Z Bike_ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T03:18:51Z drmeister: How do you wipe out a generic function definition? (setf (fdefinition XXX) nil)? 2014-06-10T03:20:50Z nyef: Might depend on the implementation, but that'd be a good first attempt. 2014-06-10T03:20:59Z nyef: That or FMAKUNBOUND. 2014-06-10T03:21:30Z n2kra: Is that a closer to mop problem? 2014-06-10T03:22:07Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-10T03:22:24Z drmeister: fmakunbound works - the (setf (fdefinition 'xxx) nil) errored out with "tried to dereference nil". 2014-06-10T03:22:29Z drmeister: Thanks. 2014-06-10T03:22:32Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-10T03:23:08Z drmeister: No, I created a generic function with the wrong number of arguments, then I declared a method with that same number of arguments. Then I was stuck with it. 2014-06-10T03:23:32Z Bike_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T03:24:31Z nyef: clhs fdefinition 2014-06-10T03:24:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fdefin.htm 2014-06-10T03:24:59Z nyef: Mmm. 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2014-06-10T07:11:39Z |3b|: alexander-01: you should be able to install it with quicklisp easily 2014-06-10T07:13:04Z JuniorRoy joined #lisp 2014-06-10T07:13:23Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-10T07:13:43Z |3b|: after setting up quicklisp, (ql:quickload :cl-glut-examples) and (cl-glut-examples:glut-teapot) might be enough to get you a running example 2014-06-10T07:15:55Z |3b|: you might need to install freeglut3 and maybe freeglut3-dev or similar to use the glut bindings that come with cl-opengl 2014-06-10T07:15:57Z mishoo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-10T07:17:26Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-10T07:17:36Z |3b|: glut isn't required for cl-opengl in general though, it works with lispbuilder-sdl, cl-sdl2, glop, etc 2014-06-10T07:20:02Z |3b| is going to sleep now, but hopefully that can get you at least a bit further 2014-06-10T07:20:12Z l_a_m joined #lisp 2014-06-10T07:20:49Z alexander-01: 3b:thanks for the help having a look at it now 2014-06-10T07:20:50Z |3b|: might 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I'm lost here and MOP is magic to me. I want to have a different kind of storage for a slot where retrieving and setting its value runs arbitrary code, so I can compute its value from a remote object. 2014-06-10T11:29:29Z H4ns: didi: https://github.com/slyrus/xml-class/blob/master/xml-class.lisp has some 2014-06-10T11:29:39Z H4ns: didi: only a setf method, though. 2014-06-10T11:29:57Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-10T11:29:59Z ndrei quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-10T11:30:05Z didi: H4ns: Thank you. 2014-06-10T11:32:46Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-10T11:33:27Z Xach: didi: There's no requirement that you have to use a slot at all. The user need not know that the value is coming from a slot when accessing some property or attribute of your object. 2014-06-10T11:33:51Z Xach: e.g. (user-id user) could go through a system database on a remote server 2014-06-10T11:33:53Z didi: Xach: That's... true. 2014-06-10T11:34:02Z didi: Hum... 2014-06-10T11:35:03Z Xach: Slots are very convenient in a lot of situations but are not the only option. 2014-06-10T11:35:52Z didi: The "effective-slot-definition" is throwing me off, but I think I will postpone this for now. 2014-06-10T11:36:20Z JuniorRoy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T11:39:47Z _schulte_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-10T11:42:06Z ikki quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-10T11:43:44Z lambda` left #lisp 2014-06-10T11:48:51Z boogie joined #lisp 2014-06-10T11:52:52Z theos quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-10T11:53:20Z Sgeo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-10T11:53:42Z boogie quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-10T11:53:46Z ehaliewicz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T11:53:56Z theos joined #lisp 2014-06-10T11:55:06Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-10T11:57:34Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-10T12:00:29Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-10T12:03:06Z atgreen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T12:03:11Z gensym quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-06-10T12:03:15Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T12:05:19Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-06-10T12:06:29Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-06-10T12:06:49Z DrCode quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T12:06:49Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-10T12:07:14Z DrCode joined #lisp 2014-06-10T12:07:27Z zwer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-10T12:12:44Z gensym joined #lisp 2014-06-10T12:14:41Z knob joined #lisp 2014-06-10T12:17:52Z hugod quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T12:18:31Z hugod joined #lisp 2014-06-10T12:20:23Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-06-10T12:20:56Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-10T12:20:56Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-06-10T12:20:56Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-10T12:23:11Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-10T12:23:21Z joneshf-laptop quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-10T12:23:28Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2014-06-10T12:24:40Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-10T12:25:11Z krid joined #lisp 2014-06-10T12:25:44Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T12:25:48Z kcj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T12:26:34Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-10T12:26:36Z zophy joined #lisp 2014-06-10T12:28:18Z _6 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T12:34:22Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-10T12:36:38Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T12:37:45Z JuniorRoy joined #lisp 2014-06-10T12:37:45Z JuniorRoy quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-10T12:37:59Z JuniorRoy joined #lisp 2014-06-10T12:38:07Z zophy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-10T12:41:08Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T12:41:56Z juanlas joined #lisp 2014-06-10T12:45:52Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T12:46:32Z jchochl__ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T12:46:36Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-10T12:47:01Z jdz quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-06-10T12:47:17Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-10T12:49:36Z boogie joined #lisp 2014-06-10T12:50:44Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-10T12:53:20Z sroy joined #lisp 2014-06-10T12:54:17Z boogie quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-10T12:54:39Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-10T12:54:42Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-10T12:55:46Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-10T12:56:47Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-06-10T12:57:10Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T12:59:22Z clop quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-10T13:01:22Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-10T13:01:56Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-10T13:11:30Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-06-10T13:11:52Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2014-06-10T13:11:52Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-06-10T13:12:14Z pranavrc quit 2014-06-10T13:12:57Z clop joined #lisp 2014-06-10T13:13:20Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-10T13:13:27Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T13:19:22Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-10T13:19:29Z fortitude joined #lisp 2014-06-10T13:24:58Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2014-06-10T13:28:27Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-10T13:28:42Z easye: Is it easy to post something on ? I have a potential telecommutable job for which I can make recommendations to the contractor, so it is more of a "tip" than a job... 2014-06-10T13:29:46Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-10T13:29:51Z rune1 quit (Quit: rune1) 2014-06-10T13:30:00Z easye: Looking for someone with a nice portfolio of things they've done with Parenscript... 2014-06-10T13:31:27Z Sir_herrbatka joined #lisp 2014-06-10T13:36:01Z Xach: easye: yes, just email the fellow who runs it, will fitzgerald 2014-06-10T13:36:16Z _schulte_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T13:38:30Z easye: Xach: thanks. 2014-06-10T13:39:14Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-06-10T13:39:33Z krid quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-10T13:41:39Z Kruppe quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-06-10T13:46:26Z ``Erik quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-10T13:46:50Z nipra quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-10T13:48:06Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-10T13:50:19Z boogie joined #lisp 2014-06-10T13:53:17Z Kruppe joined #lisp 2014-06-10T13:54:16Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-10T13:55:12Z boogie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T13:56:10Z krid joined #lisp 2014-06-10T13:56:22Z krid quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T13:56:48Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-06-10T13:59:48Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-10T13:59:54Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T14:00:20Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T14:00:44Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-10T14:00:58Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T14:06:02Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-06-10T14:13:38Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T14:15:22Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-06-10T14:20:03Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-10T14:21:52Z replcated quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-10T14:22:53Z easye: Hmm. A CL logging abstraction that allows me to add hooks to add an additional listener (in log4j)? Or am I better rolling my own trace.lisp? 2014-06-10T14:23:35Z JuanDaugherty: u looked on cliki? 2014-06-10T14:23:49Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-10T14:23:57Z easye is going through the various library documentations now. 2014-06-10T14:24:35Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-10T14:24:52Z JuanDaugherty: log4cl would appear to be the thing matching other lang cultures 2014-06-10T14:25:18Z JuanDaugherty: and somewhat matching your spec 2014-06-10T14:25:31Z easye: log4cl SLIME integration is kewl 2014-06-10T14:25:45Z JuanDaugherty: assuming it's like the other log4s 2014-06-10T14:25:57Z easye: If its CLOS, I can probably add a :before, :after, or :around... 2014-06-10T14:26:08Z easye: Which it looks like it is. Quickloading... 2014-06-10T14:26:33Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-06-10T14:26:41Z replcated joined #lisp 2014-06-10T14:26:41Z hitecnologys quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-10T14:26:58Z JuanDaugherty: yes it does 2014-06-10T14:27:03Z JuanDaugherty: (ql) 2014-06-10T14:27:06Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-06-10T14:27:07Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-10T14:28:35Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-10T14:29:41Z JuanDaugherty: Xach, I was able to load gbb-open using it's install advise on the base of the ql loaded base pkg but confused 2014-06-10T14:29:54Z JuanDaugherty: about the other stuff apropos shows for gbbopen 2014-06-10T14:30:00Z JuanDaugherty: *its 2014-06-10T14:30:05Z JuanDaugherty: *advice 2014-06-10T14:32:43Z ltbarcly quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-10T14:32:48Z Xach: What does gbbopen do? 2014-06-10T14:33:56Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T14:34:55Z drmeiste_: git submodules are awesome - they solve my problem of distributing dependent libraries with my Common Lisp. 2014-06-10T14:35:07Z drmeiste_ is now known as drmeister 2014-06-10T14:35:38Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-10T14:36:16Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-10T14:36:26Z didi: drmeister: How come? 2014-06-10T14:36:37Z JuanDaugherty: you mean what it is? it's a blackboard system. 2014-06-10T14:37:35Z Xach: I don't know what a blackboard system is, sorry. 2014-06-10T14:37:40Z JuanDaugherty: it says it supports ql and the ql ... 2014-06-10T14:38:08Z JuanDaugherty: well that's not really important right now but will explain after clearing up the layout 2014-06-10T14:38:22Z drmeister: Rather than shipping the Common Lisp source tree and including the source for all dependent libraries I can just make the dependent libraries submodules and the user can update them on their end. 2014-06-10T14:38:51Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2014-06-10T14:38:53Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T14:38:55Z JuanDaugherty: ... and its process is it loads the base pkg then you use regular asdf from that point 2014-06-10T14:38:59Z JuanDaugherty: which works fine 2014-06-10T14:39:42Z JuanDaugherty: i'm just confused about all the other parts of it which are in ql and ftm is there such a thing as a meta pkg in ql? 2014-06-10T14:39:58Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T14:40:56Z JuanDaugherty: (coincidentally related to what drmeister is talking about mayhaps) 2014-06-10T14:41:34Z JuanDaugherty: a bb system is a model for ai/expert systems where different knowledge sources can be integrated in a unified model of control 2014-06-10T14:41:43Z Xach: drmeister: for what it's worth, I don't know how to do that. 2014-06-10T14:42:21Z drmeister: Xach: That's ok - I can build it into the build system. 2014-06-10T14:43:11Z drmeister: I'm just learning how to do it - I just added a git submodule for mps - then I realized I could add submodules for llvm/clang/boost/readline - whatever dependent libraries are on github. 2014-06-10T14:43:20Z oleo: what's the usual value of *debugger-hook* ? 2014-06-10T14:43:24Z oleo: for sbcl ? 2014-06-10T14:43:44Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2014-06-10T14:43:48Z JuanDaugherty: drmeister, did you confirm log4cl and log4slime are coordinate/same author? 2014-06-10T14:44:02Z stassats: oleo: why are you asking? 2014-06-10T14:44:44Z oleo: not sure how to reset it.... 2014-06-10T14:46:34Z JuanDaugherty guesses they are not 2014-06-10T14:48:56Z drmeister: JuanDaugherty: You have me confused with someone else - I have no idea what log4cl or log4slime are. 2014-06-10T14:49:22Z JuanDaugherty: y, sorry, that was easye 2014-06-10T14:52:25Z replcated quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-10T14:52:29Z vinleod quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-06-10T14:53:17Z rune1 joined #lisp 2014-06-10T14:54:02Z oleo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142838 2014-06-10T14:54:05Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-10T14:55:41Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-06-10T14:57:05Z francogrex joined #lisp 2014-06-10T14:57:39Z francogrex: Hi, I am ashamed to ask this again but I didn't save the answer last time and I cannot find it on goggle: how to invoke sbcl's ldb? 2014-06-10T14:57:44Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-10T14:58:10Z stassats: francogrex: (alien-funcall (extern-alien "ldb_monitor" (function void))) 2014-06-10T14:58:20Z francogrex: ok stassats thanks (again) 2014-06-10T15:00:45Z JuanDaugherty: francogrex, you could have googled that off the log 2014-06-10T15:01:21Z gigetoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T15:02:15Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2014-06-10T15:03:15Z crelix joined #lisp 2014-06-10T15:03:20Z francogrex: true 2014-06-10T15:04:14Z zz_karupa is now known as karupa 2014-06-10T15:04:20Z crelix quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-10T15:04:24Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2014-06-10T15:05:37Z JuanDaugherty: Xach, so stuff can be in ql without your permission? 2014-06-10T15:05:50Z mr-fooba_ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T15:06:21Z JuanDaugherty: permission/oversight 2014-06-10T15:06:57Z Xach: If someone asks me to add something to Quicklisp, I add it. 2014-06-10T15:07:02Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-10T15:07:11Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-06-10T15:07:13Z Xach: I do not add only things I think are good ideas, or that I might use or understand. 2014-06-10T15:07:30Z karupa is now known as zz_karupa 2014-06-10T15:08:13Z JuanDaugherty: k, thx 2014-06-10T15:08:40Z mr-foobar quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-10T15:08:45Z JuanDaugherty: (assume this means also 'that I know work') 2014-06-10T15:09:47Z JuanDaugherty: gbbopen is not a questionable pkg btw 2014-06-10T15:10:38Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T15:11:20Z xificurC quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-10T15:11:45Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-10T15:11:48Z JuanDaugherty: just a big one that has parts which aren't gbb prefixed showing in apropos and unreferenced in its docs (as being ql loadable) 2014-06-10T15:13:31Z francogrex quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.1.2 $Revision: 1.796.2.4 $ (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-10T15:15:03Z Xach: I check that things build. 2014-06-10T15:15:16Z Xach: "apropos" is a very blunt instrument for exploring what a project provides. 2014-06-10T15:17:16Z JuanDaugherty: got it 2014-06-10T15:17:29Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-10T15:23:40Z Kruppe quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-06-10T15:26:23Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-10T15:26:25Z Denommus quit (Changing host) 2014-06-10T15:26:25Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-10T15:32:08Z didi: drmeister: You could also refrain from shipping dependencies with your software. 2014-06-10T15:32:56Z therik quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T15:32:59Z Vivitron joined #lisp 2014-06-10T15:33:25Z marsbot quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-10T15:34:14Z Kruppe joined #lisp 2014-06-10T15:35:43Z drmeister: didi: Two reasons not to do that 1) I use the github server to move my code from system to system - I don't want to hunt down dependent libraries every time I do that 2) The first introduction to any piece of software distributed in source shouldn't be spent trying to figure out how to get dependent libraries to compile and link. 2014-06-10T15:35:58Z drewc quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-10T15:36:18Z therik joined #lisp 2014-06-10T15:37:16Z didi: drmeister: I see. I don't agree with you, but thanks for sharing your reasons. 2014-06-10T15:38:54Z drmeister: didi: No problem - I didn't mean to sound rude if that's how it came across - I've thought about this issue a lot and I've wrestled with a lot of source distributions. I just realized that git may solve this problem for me. 2014-06-10T15:39:03Z therik quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-10T15:39:36Z therik joined #lisp 2014-06-10T15:43:17Z Okasu quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-10T15:44:33Z nyef joined #lisp 2014-06-10T15:44:52Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T15:48:21Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-06-10T15:48:36Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-10T15:48:54Z drewc joined #lisp 2014-06-10T15:49:04Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-06-10T15:49:18Z didi: drmeister: Yeah, I understand. Dependencies can be annoying. 2014-06-10T15:49:32Z Xach: Tell me about it! 2014-06-10T15:49:36Z didi: Hehehe. 2014-06-10T15:50:16Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-10T15:51:36Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T15:52:31Z vlnx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T15:52:41Z vlnx joined #lisp 2014-06-10T15:54:00Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-06-10T15:54:22Z drmeister: What is the FORMAT spell to print the number of spaces provided by an argument? I want to indent by a calculated number of spaces. 2014-06-10T15:54:48Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-10T15:55:17Z nyef: clhs ~T 2014-06-10T15:55:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cfa.htm 2014-06-10T15:55:57Z Bike: ~vt or something, then 2014-06-10T15:56:21Z jusss quit (Quit: xxxxxxx) 2014-06-10T15:57:00Z drmeister: Yes - (format t "~vtHi~%" 20) - muchos nachos. 2014-06-10T15:57:47Z Bike: i do like nachos 2014-06-10T15:58:01Z didi: mmmmm 2014-06-10T15:58:27Z drmeister is frustrated by the freakin' hoops he has to jump through to generate legal C++ code. 2014-06-10T15:59:23Z nyef: ... Indent depth is significant in C++? 2014-06-10T15:59:29Z drmeister: You want to forward declare a class in a deep namespace? Like foo::bar::bas? You can't say "class foo::bar::bas;" oh no - you have to say: "namespace foo { namespace bar { class bas; } }" 2014-06-10T16:00:05Z drmeister: nyef: Dammit - If I'm going to generate code - it's going to be pretty code. 2014-06-10T16:00:14Z nyef: Have you considered abusing the pprinter for this? 2014-06-10T16:00:23Z nyef: (It's been done for generating Pascal, after all.) 2014-06-10T16:00:39Z drmeister: nyef: My pprinter is not working yet - no time to fix - it abuses me. 2014-06-10T16:01:13Z nyef: Ah. 2014-06-10T16:01:36Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2014-06-10T16:02:01Z drmeister: You can't generate template code parameterized on classes unless the classes have been defined at the very least as forward declarations. So I generate this: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/c8feab76dd802f6ba08b 2014-06-10T16:02:10Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-10T16:03:40Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-10T16:04:24Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-06-10T16:05:31Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-10T16:09:30Z drmeister: Gaah - I've got a "namespace (anonymous namespace) { ... };" that won't play in Peoria. 2014-06-10T16:13:57Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-10T16:14:57Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-10T16:15:21Z ``Erik joined #lisp 2014-06-10T16:18:15Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-10T16:21:44Z dfox_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T16:22:00Z dfox_ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T16:22:12Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T16:23:50Z drmeister: My pprinter code is all from ECL but it uses the underlying ECL streams API (written in C) in ways that are not compatible with my underlying streams API. It may be simple to fix or it may require a rip out and replacement of my streams code (in C++). 2014-06-10T16:24:24Z drmeister: Meaning my pprinter code is mostly written in Common Lisp that I lifted from ECL - with the rest of my Common Lisp code. 2014-06-10T16:24:47Z lukego quit (Quit: lukego) 2014-06-10T16:27:04Z shridhar quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T16:29:19Z _schulte_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-10T16:31:50Z yrdz joined #lisp 2014-06-10T16:33:24Z jasom: drmeister: you can't use a class in code at all unless it's been declared; templates are nothing special here, just a lame way of doing macros. 2014-06-10T16:33:29Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-10T16:34:18Z jasom: cl-ana? 2014-06-10T16:34:26Z jasom: minion: cl-ana? 2014-06-10T16:34:26Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``cl-ana''. 2014-06-10T16:34:37Z oleo: haha 2014-06-10T16:34:39Z jasom: huh, does minion not search cliki anymore? 2014-06-10T16:35:00Z oleo: maybe only the recommended libraries set..... 2014-06-10T16:35:07Z jasom: ohh the page is named stupidly: cl-ana%3A%20Free%20data%20analysis%20library 2014-06-10T16:35:13Z shridhar joined #lisp 2014-06-10T16:35:19Z jasom: minion: cl-ana%3A%20Free%20data%20analysis%20library? 2014-06-10T16:35:19Z minion: cl-ana%3A%20Free%20data%20analysis%20library: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/cl-ana%3A%20Free%20data%20analysis%20library 2014-06-10T16:35:31Z oleo: heh 2014-06-10T16:36:00Z oleo: w3c spec..... 2014-06-10T16:36:13Z Xach: stassats: what is sbcl-stable? 2014-06-10T16:36:38Z stassats: sbcl without a horrible corruption bug plus a patch 2014-06-10T16:37:03Z stassats: (cherry-picked form the future) 2014-06-10T16:42:26Z drewc:
2014-06-10T16:42:49Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2014-06-10T16:43:46Z boogie joined #lisp 2014-06-10T16:50:24Z oleo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T16:51:20Z renard_: Hi, I have a function (foobar) which holds in 2 variables a lambda-list such as (arg1 &key (arg1 val2)) and a function body. What is the best way to create a lambda function with those 2 variables? I would like to dynamicaly create lambda functions. 2014-06-10T16:53:37Z Bike: that's a bad thing to do, but, use eval 2014-06-10T16:54:01Z stassats: maybe renard_ just wants closures 2014-06-10T16:54:16Z orthecreedence joined #lisp 2014-06-10T16:54:29Z renard_: stassats: yep closure would be fine 2014-06-10T16:54:53Z renard_: I though about eval but this is bad AFAIR 2014-06-10T16:55:11Z CrazyWoods quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-10T16:55:18Z Bike: (let (...closure stuff...) (lambda (arg1 &key (arg2 val2)) ...)) 2014-06-10T16:55:41Z renard_: Bike: (arg1 &key (arg2 val2)) is stored in a variable 2014-06-10T16:55:53Z jasom: renard_: I guess the question is, why is either the lambda-list or the function body not available at load time? 2014-06-10T16:56:02Z Bike: can't use a closure then 2014-06-10T16:56:10Z drmeister: jasom: I understand - I need to declare template code like: template <> GCInfo { static KindEnum Kind = KIND_Cons_O; }; To do that I need to first forward declare "class core::Cons_O {};" Then I have to do that for ~250 other C++ classes. 2014-06-10T16:56:40Z drmeister: And they are all scattered around in different namespaces. 2014-06-10T16:56:51Z renard_: jasom: because I would use function that could be dynamicaly be defined 2014-06-10T16:57:17Z Bike: that's just restating the question. 2014-06-10T16:57:18Z jasom: renard_: "dynamically defined" as in the user types in code and you make a function out of it? 2014-06-10T16:57:33Z jasom: renard_: why does it need to be dynamically defined? 2014-06-10T16:57:43Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T16:57:46Z renard_: jasom: yes kindof 2014-06-10T16:57:46Z rszeno joined #lisp 2014-06-10T16:58:01Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-06-10T16:58:46Z jasom: renard_: if you want to execute code that doesn't exist yet at load time, you need to use some form of eval. Just know that there are lots of limitations imposed by it (most importantly it is evaluated in the null lexical environment) 2014-06-10T16:59:20Z mhd_ quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-10T16:59:41Z renard_: Ok thus this is not a very very bad stuff, just a bad one though. 2014-06-10T17:00:00Z knob quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-10T17:00:02Z drewc: eval? what is wrong with COMPILE? we have a LAMBDA form, do we not? 2014-06-10T17:00:13Z jasom: renard_: you give up some things by using eval, but you gain other stuff; a lot of times people use eval when a macro would do. 2014-06-10T17:00:41Z renard_: jasom ok I understand thanks for the tip 2014-06-10T17:00:43Z nyef: Most of the time, EVAL is the wrong tool for the job. 2014-06-10T17:00:47Z jasom: renard_: ah yes, you can use compile to get a compiled function; depending on the implementation they may do the same thing 2014-06-10T17:00:50Z nyef: The rest of the time, you're writing a REPL. 2014-06-10T17:01:08Z amuul joined #lisp 2014-06-10T17:01:26Z jasom: nyef: I was going to say I wrote an interpreter that compiled to lisp code that was then EVAL'ed but the interpreter was in fact a REPL so it's covered under that already. 2014-06-10T17:01:27Z drewc agrees with nyef ... EVAL is 's/A/I/' 2014-06-10T17:02:36Z CatMtKing joined #lisp 2014-06-10T17:03:07Z drewc thinks that DEFMACRO is not so great either, but is just a developer and not a programming language designer, and still uses DEFMACRO, so up in the air really. 2014-06-10T17:03:34Z renard_: (compile nil `(lambda (,@arg-list) ,@body)) would do the job ? 2014-06-10T17:03:40Z stassats: why do people thing that EVAL is bad, but COMPILE is not? 2014-06-10T17:04:05Z Bike: i think compile is worse 2014-06-10T17:04:12Z Bike: what are you actually doing, renard_? 2014-06-10T17:05:13Z renard_: Bike: I would like to write a command line argumet parser that would handle sub comands (kinda git commit …) 2014-06-10T17:06:02Z drewc: stassats: I do not think COMPILE is 'not bad', but prefer it over EVAL because I prefer to compile code before I evaluate it, regardless of what SBCL does under the hood :P 2014-06-10T17:06:04Z jasom: renard_: unless the sub commands need to be arbitrary lisp expressoins then you don't need eval 2014-06-10T17:06:36Z renard_: jasom I would like to propose users to use arbitrary option to the dispatch function 2014-06-10T17:06:45Z renard_: Let me c/p an example 2014-06-10T17:07:40Z drewc: renard_: http://cliki.net/CL-Launch ? It does something quite magical for -cmd --line --options IIRC 2014-06-10T17:07:49Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T17:07:53Z renard_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142840 2014-06-10T17:08:10Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-10T17:09:23Z renard_: jasom: then I would like to call my program: ./tool server start --delay 2 --restart 2014-06-10T17:09:39Z renard_: or ./tool server stop --delay 2 2014-06-10T17:10:22Z lukego joined #lisp 2014-06-10T17:11:12Z FracV quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-10T17:11:34Z FracV joined #lisp 2014-06-10T17:12:38Z renard_: drewc: yes anyway I want my my program to parse options, not a wrapper 2014-06-10T17:13:21Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-06-10T17:13:45Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2014-06-10T17:15:02Z lukego quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-10T17:15:49Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-10T17:16:48Z |3b|: renard_: does the set of valid options change at runtime? 2014-06-10T17:17:03Z drewc: renard_: So, you want to use a unix shell and unix/GNU 'getopt' type options(??), and yet you want to parse ARGV yourself regardless of the fact that it has been built in to GNU... ? Ok. Does whatever implementation you are using for unix offer such a thing for its binaries? ... (you are planning on making `./tool` a binary?) 2014-06-10T17:17:12Z renard_: |3b|: hum no 2014-06-10T17:17:36Z renard_: drewc: yes 2014-06-10T17:17:38Z |3b|: maybe some sort of define-command macro instead of putting them all in a list? 2014-06-10T17:17:48Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2014-06-10T17:17:53Z |3b|: or store compiled lambdas in the list 2014-06-10T17:18:01Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-10T17:18:27Z |3b|: though that would get ugly, so you'd probably want a define-command macro to build the list anyway 2014-06-10T17:18:34Z renard_: |3b|: I guess this should be a solution yest 2014-06-10T17:18:44Z drewc would use (defmethod command-line-option ((opt (eql :delay)) ...) 2014-06-10T17:20:17Z renard_: There are project such as cl-cli-parser but unfortunately they don't hangle sub commands 2014-06-10T17:20:17Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-06-10T17:20:20Z grump quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T17:23:03Z drewc: renard_: parsing such things is somewhat trivial IMHO , especially if you know both the input code and the results you want. Then again, I know parsers a wee bit much. 2014-06-10T17:23:23Z renard_: drewc: I can defined my dispatch command such as : 2014-06-10T17:23:24Z renard_: (defun server-start (restart &key (delay 2)) ...) 2014-06-10T17:23:49Z renard_: then generate a list of option suitable to the server-start command 2014-06-10T17:24:57Z jasom: renard_: I still don't see why eval is needed 2014-06-10T17:24:58Z drewc: again, seems trivial... (let ((args (parse-command-line))) (apply #'server-start args)) 2014-06-10T17:25:02Z renard_: such as: '((server-start (restart "restart description") (delay "delay description")) ...) 2014-06-10T17:25:17Z renard_: but thus would be rewriting some part of the code 2014-06-10T17:26:43Z dbushenko quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T17:27:01Z renard_: I got this : https://github.com/renard/cl-cli 2014-06-10T17:27:21Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T17:27:46Z jasom: renard_: It seems like doing a dispatch based upon the command and then parse the command line options from there 2014-06-10T17:28:05Z prxq joined #lisp 2014-06-10T17:28:06Z renard_: I was wondering if removeing the cl-cli:defcommand cl-cli:defoption is a good or a bad idea 2014-06-10T17:28:55Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-10T17:29:04Z drewc: good 2014-06-10T17:29:30Z drewc: remember : 1 bug per 10 lines. So less code means less bugs. 2014-06-10T17:30:16Z renard_: drewc: thus an approch such as https://github.com/renard/cl-cli/blob/draft4/cl-cli-test.lisp is definitively better ? 2014-06-10T17:32:17Z drewc: renard_: All I see there are parameters/variables ... so no, not doing any code at all is likely worse than DEFINE'ing code, for programming :) 2014-06-10T17:33:24Z renard_: That's why I am asking for asvise 2014-06-10T17:33:28Z renard_: advice 2014-06-10T17:33:31Z drewc: and why are lambda lists stored in parameters? from what I can see, you need to start over... does not seem good at all. 2014-06-10T17:33:31Z renard_: ;-) 2014-06-10T17:33:37Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-10T17:33:55Z renard_: drewc: In which version ? 2014-06-10T17:33:58Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-10T17:34:23Z shridhar quit (Quit: shridhar) 2014-06-10T17:34:48Z drewc: cl-cli-test.lisp 2014-06-10T17:35:34Z jasom: renard_: it looks like cli-parser has no support for positional parameters. If you won't support -- and - options before the command, I would just make a function for each command and write a simple case statement or use a hash-table to dispatch 2014-06-10T17:35:53Z jasom: then you can use cli-parser to parse your command parameters if you like 2014-06-10T17:36:46Z foreignFunction joined #lisp 2014-06-10T17:36:55Z renard_: jasom: I would like to have: --global --options command verbs --command --specific --options rest 2014-06-10T17:37:10Z jasom: renard_: well that's easy to parse out on your own too 2014-06-10T17:37:24Z renard_: the problem is not the parsing 2014-06-10T17:37:43Z drewc: If you were programming in C, would you want to first generate the code based on what you have stored as parameters, then call the compiler on that file, then run it to parse that particular command line? EVAL/COMPILE etc do such things.. compile and evaluate code. So, yes code is data, but data is not code. 2014-06-10T17:37:58Z Kruppe quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-06-10T17:37:58Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T17:38:15Z renard_: ok thus I need to declare twice the options ? 2014-06-10T17:38:45Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-10T17:39:07Z renard_: usign first a command such as (defun server-start (restart &key (delay 2)) ...), then a list of suitable options with descriptions such as: '((server-start (restart "restart description") (delay "delay description")) ...) 2014-06-10T17:39:08Z renard_:  ? 2014-06-10T17:40:02Z drewc has no idea what you are talking about ... so breakfast/reading time. cheers! :) 2014-06-10T17:40:14Z |3b| would try to keep them together, either with a macro that does both, or maybe a function to add the descriptions that you can call next to the definition 2014-06-10T17:40:44Z renard_: ok thanks guys 2014-06-10T17:40:49Z renard_: end of day here 2014-06-10T17:41:05Z |3b|: though just writing out actual text might be better, i'm guessing you want those for generating output for a 'help' option at command line? 2014-06-10T17:41:09Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-10T17:41:22Z renard_: |3b|: I would rather describe my options once this would be easier in all purposes 2014-06-10T17:41:24Z jasom: renard_: I would have a command "server" that then dispatches in the same way the top-level dispatches 2014-06-10T17:41:38Z renard_: as in the main version on github (linke previoully paste) 2014-06-10T17:41:54Z mhd joined #lisp 2014-06-10T17:42:46Z drewc: (defmethod command-line-option ((opt (eql :delay)) "delay description as documentation? is that what we want?" ...) 2014-06-10T17:49:10Z Kruppe joined #lisp 2014-06-10T17:49:24Z lukego joined #lisp 2014-06-10T17:51:57Z joneshf-laptop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T17:52:05Z mhd quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-10T17:52:11Z Oberon4278 joined #lisp 2014-06-10T17:52:28Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-10T17:53:10Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-06-10T17:53:55Z ivan\_ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T17:55:04Z ivan\ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-10T17:55:16Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-10T17:55:34Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-06-10T17:55:44Z michael_lee quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T17:56:02Z ivan\_ is now known as ivan\ 2014-06-10T17:57:25Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-10T17:57:58Z jtz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T17:58:06Z sheilong joined #lisp 2014-06-10T17:58:45Z orthecreedence: is there a common lisp "test suite"...ie if HYPOTHETICALLY one was to build a CL compiler, is there a way to make sure it conforms to the standard? 2014-06-10T17:58:56Z pjb: ansi-test 2014-06-10T17:59:08Z Bike_ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T17:59:15Z orthecreedence: cool, thanks! 2014-06-10T18:00:36Z Xach: orthecreedence: HI! 2014-06-10T18:00:40Z the8thbit joined #lisp 2014-06-10T18:00:42Z orthecreedence: hey! 2014-06-10T18:00:55Z Xach: orthecreedence: vom doesn't load for me today. "The variable *STANDARD-OUTPUT* is unbound" when loading vom.fasl. FYI. 2014-06-10T18:01:03Z Xach: I'm using sbcl. 2014-06-10T18:01:07Z orthecreedence: sonofa 2014-06-10T18:01:17Z orthecreedence: i just fixed it to use cl:*standard-output* 2014-06-10T18:01:22Z Bike_ is now known as Bicyclidine 2014-06-10T18:01:23Z orthecreedence: let me check i pushed it 2014-06-10T18:01:40Z Xach: hmm, i just got a 403 from github when trying to update 2014-06-10T18:01:42Z Xach tries again 2014-06-10T18:02:03Z Xach: weird, still happening. 2014-06-10T18:02:14Z orthecreedence: yep, i cant push 2014-06-10T18:02:19Z orthecreedence: and yes, i forgot to push 2014-06-10T18:02:24Z orthecreedence: derr 2014-06-10T18:04:22Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-10T18:04:42Z Shinmera: stassats: How would I go about checking if a Qt object instance is a subclass of some Qt class? I couldn't find any functions that look like they would do the trick. 2014-06-10T18:07:07Z orthecreedence: Xach: looks like it's back up, pushed the fix. 2014-06-10T18:07:14Z orthecreedence: thanks for the heads up =] 2014-06-10T18:07:19Z lukego quit (Quit: lukego) 2014-06-10T18:08:26Z orthecreedence: well, it WAS up for one second, enough for me to push, looks like github is still having problems though 2014-06-10T18:08:28Z Xach: Thanks. Still down for me. I'll check it in a while. 2014-06-10T18:08:40Z stassats: Shinmera: if you mean an instance of some qt class, qt:qtypep 2014-06-10T18:10:48Z nha joined #lisp 2014-06-10T18:11:34Z Shinmera: Hmm 2014-06-10T18:11:53Z Shinmera: (qt:qtypep instance "QWidget") for example throws me an error. 2014-06-10T18:12:07Z Shinmera: I assume wrapping the class name in find-qclass would be correct? 2014-06-10T18:12:16Z Pullphinger joined #lisp 2014-06-10T18:13:40Z Shinmera: Ah yes, that seems to work. Thanks! 2014-06-10T18:14:10Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-06-10T18:14:18Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T18:15:20Z stassats: you aren't supposed to, but yeah 2014-06-10T18:21:42Z puchacz joined #lisp 2014-06-10T18:21:45Z puchacz: hi 2014-06-10T18:22:02Z puchacz: how to generate a javascript variable name dynamically in parenscript please? 2014-06-10T18:22:04Z puchacz: I tried: (ps:ps (ps:defvar (ps:lisp fname) 3)) 2014-06-10T18:22:09Z puchacz: but it does not like it 2014-06-10T18:27:15Z drewc: I do it the same way I do it in CL. (ps:ps* (let ((var (gensym))) `(lambda () (let ((,var "foobar")) ,var)))) 2014-06-10T18:27:38Z puchacz: drewc: I just did (ps:compile-script `(ps:defvar ,fname 3)) 2014-06-10T18:27:40Z puchacz: and it worked 2014-06-10T18:28:06Z bocaneri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-10T18:28:20Z puchacz: this is what ps:ps does internally 2014-06-10T18:29:29Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-10T18:30:06Z drewc: (documentation 'ps:ps* 'function) => "Compiles body to a JavaScript string. If *parenscript-stream* is bound, writes the output to *parenscript-stream*, otherwise returns a string." 2014-06-10T18:30:42Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-06-10T18:30:59Z jasom: minion: memo for renard_ did you want something like this? http://paste.lisp.org/+327T 2014-06-10T18:30:59Z minion: memo for renard_ did you want something like this? httppaste.lisp.org+327T: An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "http://www.cliki.net/memo%20for%20renard_%20did%20you%20want%20something%20like%20this?%20httppaste.lisp.org+327T?source" contains illegal character #\? at position 113.. 2014-06-10T18:31:03Z puchacz: ok, thx 2014-06-10T18:31:22Z Bicyclidine: Ha. 2014-06-10T18:31:26Z jasom: minion: memo for renard_: did you want something like this? http://paste.lisp.org/+327T 2014-06-10T18:31:26Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell renard_ when he/she/it next speaks. 2014-06-10T18:31:28Z drewc: So, if you want to generate code at run time, it is usually COMPILE'd before it is EVAL'd :) 2014-06-10T18:31:49Z puchacz: drewc: thx. 2014-06-10T18:32:06Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-06-10T18:33:10Z jxv joined #lisp 2014-06-10T18:37:17Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-10T18:37:39Z trumae_ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T18:38:18Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T18:39:16Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T18:40:33Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-10T18:40:44Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-06-10T18:41:16Z trumae quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T18:42:32Z pnpuff left #lisp 2014-06-10T18:44:10Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-06-10T18:50:08Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T18:53:24Z eudoxia quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-10T18:57:15Z zwer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-10T18:58:38Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T18:58:46Z dandersen joined #lisp 2014-06-10T18:59:09Z dickle joined #lisp 2014-06-10T18:59:18Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T18:59:26Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-10T19:00:48Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-10T19:01:19Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-10T19:01:27Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-10T19:03:12Z mhd joined #lisp 2014-06-10T19:04:33Z jxv quit (Quit: QUIT) 2014-06-10T19:05:28Z dickle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T19:05:28Z dandersen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T19:06:03Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-06-10T19:07:26Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-10T19:08:11Z malbertife joined #lisp 2014-06-10T19:11:48Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-10T19:11:58Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-06-10T19:12:03Z ehaliewicz joined #lisp 2014-06-10T19:16:01Z varjag_ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T19:16:58Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-10T19:17:29Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-06-10T19:19:40Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-10T19:20:52Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-10T19:25:07Z Sir_herrbatka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-10T19:25:17Z francogrex joined #lisp 2014-06-10T19:25:20Z renard_: jasom: thx this is kinda similar to what I got first the idea is there 2014-06-10T19:25:20Z minion: renard_, memo from jasom: did you want something like this? http://paste.lisp.org/+327T 2014-06-10T19:25:21Z renard_: thanks 2014-06-10T19:28:06Z nug700 joined #lisp 2014-06-10T19:32:23Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-10T19:34:23Z vickyb joined #lisp 2014-06-10T19:34:26Z francogrex quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-10T19:34:44Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2014-06-10T19:37:22Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-06-10T19:39:10Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-06-10T19:39:40Z mr-fooba_ quit 2014-06-10T19:39:47Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-10T19:41:17Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-10T19:41:18Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T19:42:59Z dubosec joined #lisp 2014-06-10T19:49:48Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T19:49:59Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-10T19:50:15Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-06-10T19:51:58Z ThomasH joined #lisp 2014-06-10T19:52:06Z ThomasH: Greetings lispers! 2014-06-10T19:52:35Z heddwch: Greetingth 2014-06-10T19:53:00Z JuanDaugherty: :) 2014-06-10T19:54:40Z eni_ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T19:55:25Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T19:55:40Z mordocai joined #lisp 2014-06-10T19:56:41Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-10T19:57:04Z ThomasH: "In contrast, popular interest in Common Lisp seems to have dropped off steadily since 2004." -> http://jng.imagine27.com/index.php/2014-03-25-160229_clojures-growing-market-share.html 2014-06-10T19:57:25Z ThomasH: My interest in Common Lisp has been steadily growing since 2004, but, then again, I'm not popular. 2014-06-10T19:57:38Z ThomasH: Is Google trends to be trusted? 2014-06-10T19:57:42Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-10T19:57:45Z stassats: what's google? 2014-06-10T19:58:12Z ThomasH: stassats: I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader. 2014-06-10T19:58:27Z stassats: so, the interest in clojure is the same as in java? i don't believe it 2014-06-10T19:58:29Z araujo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-10T19:58:34Z heddwch: Google searches are a horrible way to judge much of anything 2014-06-10T19:58:46Z heddwch: Look at how much java has fallen, yet you can't escape it. 2014-06-10T19:59:18Z araujo joined #lisp 2014-06-10T19:59:58Z Shinmera: Well. Parasol is complete. All anyone could ever possibly want is there. http://shinmera.tymoon.eu/public/screenshot-2014.06.10-21:58:07.png 2014-06-10T20:00:36Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T20:00:38Z jtz joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:00:38Z jtz quit (Changing host) 2014-06-10T20:00:38Z jtz joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:00:40Z heddwch: hehe 2014-06-10T20:00:40Z stassats: so, no more photoshop? 2014-06-10T20:00:50Z Shinmera: Peppers is all I need 2014-06-10T20:01:33Z ThomasH: No argument about google searches. What I'm wondering is whether there is a way to assess whether the use of Common Lisp is increasing or decreasing 2014-06-10T20:01:56Z Shinmera: No, but really, I'm finally getting to implementing a proper brush engine. Hopefully I can figure out a good interface for that. 2014-06-10T20:02:32Z ThomasH: Theres a better google trend search in the comments. 2014-06-10T20:02:35Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:02:36Z mhd quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-10T20:02:45Z heddwch: ThomasH: Honestly, I'd say decreasing, but it seems cyclical, so just wait a bit until the next fad 2014-06-10T20:03:35Z mordocai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T20:04:03Z oleo: whether you do i don't care about, i'm increasing it! lol 2014-06-10T20:04:26Z stassats: ThomasH: of course it is increasing, there was no Photoshop with peppers in CL in 2004 2014-06-10T20:04:53Z heddwch: :D 2014-06-10T20:05:01Z Rosario quit 2014-06-10T20:06:15Z Adlai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-10T20:09:08Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:09:35Z mhd joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:11:12Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:12:46Z sroy quit (Quit: Quitte) 2014-06-10T20:13:01Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:13:05Z vlnx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-10T20:13:36Z ThomasH: stassats: That was a pepper? 2014-06-10T20:14:59Z jasom: looked like a bell pepper to me 2014-06-10T20:15:15Z vlnx joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:15:44Z jasom: this is way off topic, but anyone in here live in new england, like baseball, and own a car? 2014-06-10T20:16:08Z KCL_ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:16:22Z ThomasH: The best that can be said about the google trends data is that Common Lisp hasn't been in the news. 2014-06-10T20:17:17Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-10T20:17:35Z Shinmera: ThomasH: The pepper is a texture brush from Gimp. It's commonly joked about because it seems so redundant. 2014-06-10T20:17:57Z JuanDaugherty quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-10T20:18:16Z ThomasH: 96 people have quicklisp starred, doesn't seem like a lot. 2014-06-10T20:18:21Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:19:45Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-10T20:19:56Z ThomasH: 788 stars for google/lisp-koans 2014-06-10T20:19:58Z jasom: yalo has more stars than that 2014-06-10T20:20:03Z stassats: Shinmera: redundant? there was already a jalapeno brush? 2014-06-10T20:20:05Z ThomasH: jasom: Yes, 324 2014-06-10T20:20:14Z heddwch: Part of that might be that lispers are less wont to stop what they're doing to star something 2014-06-10T20:20:53Z foreignFunction quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-10T20:21:09Z Shinmera: stassats: I wish! 2014-06-10T20:21:12Z ThomasH: sbcl - 310 2014-06-10T20:21:22Z stassats: did you star it? star it now! 2014-06-10T20:21:50Z jasom: It also seems that web related stuff gets the most stars (just judging by # of stars versus my subjective idea of how popular a project is) 2014-06-10T20:21:56Z ThomasH: Heh, I didn't. Sometimes I don't star stuff because it junks up my RSS feed. 2014-06-10T20:22:08Z ThomasH stars sbcl 2014-06-10T20:22:08Z Shinmera: Having little counters go up is vitally important to my life. 2014-06-10T20:22:17Z didi: Hehe. "stars" 2014-06-10T20:22:18Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T20:22:48Z ThomasH: Shinmera: Indeed. 2014-06-10T20:23:45Z jasom: "...a new Lisp dialect which combines the elegance of Scheme and powerfulness of Common Lisp" <-- I've lost count how many times I've seen phrases like that 2014-06-10T20:23:50Z ThomasH: Alrightly, be back later. 2014-06-10T20:24:02Z stassats: jasom: this time it's for real 2014-06-10T20:24:13Z jasom: stassats: okay, that's different then 2014-06-10T20:24:17Z ThomasH: jasom: Finally! 2014-06-10T20:24:27Z didi: jasom: I heard scientists are baffled. 2014-06-10T20:24:34Z Shinmera: jasom: Well clearly since it doesn't also add in Clojure to the mix it has no chance of succeeding 2014-06-10T20:27:18Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T20:27:37Z jasom: TIL scheme is more elegant than CL and CL is more powerful than scheme 2014-06-10T20:28:11Z stassats: makes sense, elegant things are usually useless 2014-06-10T20:28:45Z dubosec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T20:29:05Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-10T20:29:26Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:30:02Z nyef: Maybe we need a dialect with the power of Scheme and the elegance of Common Lisp? 2014-06-10T20:30:10Z mhd quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-10T20:30:37Z jasom: Objective C: All the blazing fast speed of smalltalk, with the memory safety of C! 2014-06-10T20:31:33Z orthecreedence: ok, how objective c with s-expressions? 2014-06-10T20:31:44Z orthecreedence: i think we're onto something here 2014-06-10T20:31:54Z dlowe: typically, that phrase describes someone who wants common lisp to be a lisp-1 2014-06-10T20:32:02Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:32:16Z dlowe: "...a new Lisp dialect..." 2014-06-10T20:32:37Z mhd joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:32:45Z jasom: the onlything I truely miss in lisp vs. scheme is first class continuations 2014-06-10T20:32:48Z mhd quit (Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-10T20:32:59Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-10T20:33:08Z jasom: though there is a bounded-continuations code-walking library that has worked well for me 2014-06-10T20:33:18Z GuilOooo quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:33:18Z mathrick_ quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:33:18Z cross quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:33:18Z sshirokov quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:33:18Z Colleen quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:33:18Z Krystof quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:33:18Z GGMethos quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:33:18Z joneshf quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:33:18Z scharan quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:33:18Z yeltzooo quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:33:18Z eee-blt quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:33:18Z setheus quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:33:18Z net4all quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:33:19Z enn quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:33:19Z rotty_ quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:33:19Z zbigniew quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:33:26Z GuilOooo joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:33:27Z net4all joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:33:28Z jasom: cl-cont 2014-06-10T20:33:29Z rotty joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:33:29Z eee-blt joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:33:29Z enn joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:33:32Z sshirokov joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:33:34Z zbigniew joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:33:43Z mathrick_ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:33:47Z cross joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:33:50Z scharan joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:34:01Z GGMethos joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:34:06Z joneshf joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:34:14Z yeltzooo joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:34:52Z orthecreedence: i wish CL had native coroutines at least 2014-06-10T20:35:28Z jasom: orthecreedence: to a certain degree, if it had one, it could easily have the other. 2014-06-10T20:35:34Z the8thbit quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-10T20:35:49Z orthecreedence: yeah its trivial to build coroutines from continuations 2014-06-10T20:35:55Z orthecreedence: but alas... 2014-06-10T20:36:09Z jasom: orthecreedence: and delimited-continuations can be built from coroutines 2014-06-10T20:36:31Z orthecreedence: ok question: what's the difference between delimited and undelimited continuations? 2014-06-10T20:36:40Z orthecreedence: i've looked it up about times and never understood 2014-06-10T20:36:47Z orthecreedence: 6 times* 2014-06-10T20:36:55Z karswell` joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:36:58Z puchacz_ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:37:00Z jasom: somoene posted a really good set of papers on it here a while back 2014-06-10T20:37:00Z sheilong quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T20:37:31Z jasom: A big difference is that you can reuse delimited continuations 2014-06-10T20:37:45Z effy_ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:37:45Z sheilong joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:38:02Z orthecreedence: ah 2014-06-10T20:38:39Z setheus joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:38:44Z jasom: another difference is that you can't return them out of the scope of the delimiter 2014-06-10T20:39:07Z ft_ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:39:08Z vlnx_ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:39:22Z froggey joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:39:31Z prxq_ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:39:33Z GuilOooo_ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:39:57Z jasom: (reset (* 2 (shift k (k (k 4))))) <-- consider that 2014-06-10T20:41:12Z orthecreedence: makes sense 2014-06-10T20:42:48Z malbertife joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:43:07Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-10T20:43:25Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T20:44:29Z sigjuice joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:44:47Z vap1 joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:45:09Z varjagg joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:46:45Z ahungry__ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:47:51Z ft quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-10T20:47:51Z ft_ is now known as ft 2014-06-10T20:48:56Z nyef quit (Quit: G'night all.) 2014-06-10T20:49:24Z average joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:49:32Z average: I've just installed quicklisp 2014-06-10T20:49:34Z average: when I do 2014-06-10T20:49:40Z average: (ql:quickload "cl-opengl") 2014-06-10T20:49:44Z average: it just stalls and sits there 2014-06-10T20:49:58Z average: everything else is ok, I've followed the installation instructions that came with quicklisp.. 2014-06-10T20:50:01Z Bicyclidine: what's halting it do. 2014-06-10T20:50:23Z average: Bicyclidine: uhm, it just sits there.. 2014-06-10T20:50:24Z average: [1]> (ql:quickload "cl-opengl") 2014-06-10T20:50:37Z orthecreedence: i wonder if EC2 is down 2014-06-10T20:50:39Z Bicyclidine: C-c C-c 2014-06-10T20:51:12Z average: Bicyclidine: yes but.. how do I make quicklisp work 2014-06-10T20:51:18Z mhd quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-10T20:51:49Z Bicyclidine: i'm asking you what happens when you tell quicklisp to stop in the middle. it'll give you a backtrace and such. this information will help answer how do you make quicklisp work. 2014-06-10T20:52:08Z average: The following restarts are available: 2014-06-10T20:52:09Z average: REINITIALIZE-SOURCE-REGISTRY-AND-RETRY :R1 Retry finding system cl-opengl after reinitializing the source-registry. 2014-06-10T20:52:11Z average: ABORT :R2 Give up on "cl-opengl" 2014-06-10T20:52:11Z average: sorry for pasting 2014-06-10T20:52:14Z average: ABORT :R3 Abort main loop 2014-06-10T20:52:15Z average: Bicyclidine: ^^ this is what I get 2014-06-10T20:52:17Z average: Break 1 [11]> 2014-06-10T20:53:06Z effy quit (Killed (sendak.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2014-06-10T20:53:06Z effy_ is now known as effy 2014-06-10T20:53:23Z stassats: that doesn't say anything about the problem, but, it says that you're using clisp, which is the problem in itself 2014-06-10T20:53:40Z Bicyclidine: not finding the system should not cause a hang... 2014-06-10T20:54:20Z sheilong quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-10T20:54:22Z GuilOooo quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:54:22Z vlnx quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:54:22Z trumae_ quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:54:22Z mac_ified quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:54:22Z yrk quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:54:22Z jchochl__ quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:54:22Z Hydan_ quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:54:22Z gravicappa quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:54:22Z vaporatorius quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:54:22Z puchacz quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:54:22Z varjag quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:54:23Z heddwch quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:54:23Z jaimef quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:54:23Z ahungry_ quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:54:23Z karswell quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:54:23Z dsp_ quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:54:23Z sigjuice_ quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:54:23Z nop0x07bc quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:54:23Z Lebbe quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-10T20:55:30Z jasom: orthecreedence: in cl-cont it would be (1+ (with-call/cc (* 2 (let/cc k (setf x k) (funcall k (funcall k 2)))))) 2014-06-10T20:55:42Z jasom: (ignore the superfluous setf) 2014-06-10T20:55:52Z orthecreedence: ok cool 2014-06-10T20:55:52Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:56:04Z average: Bicyclidine: ok.. well, then I must've done something weird and messed it up I guess... 2014-06-10T20:56:11Z mhd joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:56:12Z orthecreedence: i'm always a bit worried about it rewriting all the underlying code 2014-06-10T20:56:52Z orthecreedence: but deliciousrobots (on github) wrote a cool green-threads library that i integrated with cl-async-futures 2014-06-10T20:57:12Z orthecreedence: made it possible to do non-cps coding 2014-06-10T20:57:40Z average: what I don't understand is.. 2014-06-10T20:57:44Z orthecreedence: error handling is still an issue, although i think it'd be trivial enough to fix (by using cl-async-future's error handling) 2014-06-10T20:57:46Z average: why it's not downloading the package 2014-06-10T20:57:49Z average: in order to install it.. 2014-06-10T20:58:08Z orthecreedence: average: can it load other packages? 2014-06-10T20:58:18Z orthecreedence: (err, download them) 2014-06-10T20:58:22Z heddwch joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:58:31Z stassats: average: try using something other than clisp 2014-06-10T20:58:35Z stassats: like sbcl or ccl 2014-06-10T20:58:51Z orthecreedence: does quickllisp not work with clisp? 2014-06-10T20:59:03Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:59:09Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:59:10Z amp801 joined #lisp 2014-06-10T20:59:15Z jasom: orthecreedence: it works fine with clisp for me 2014-06-10T20:59:17Z mhd quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-10T20:59:27Z jasom: it's possible that cl-opengl doesn't work with clisp though, I suppose. 2014-06-10T20:59:31Z average: orthecreedence: no.. :( 2014-06-10T21:00:00Z average: jasom: actually I saw instructions on several blogs about using it with clisp.. 2014-06-10T21:00:11Z orthecreedence: yeah i think it should be fine 2014-06-10T21:00:21Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T21:00:37Z jasom: average: I did a (ql:quickload "cl-opengl") and it worked 2014-06-10T21:00:42Z jasom: which version of clisp? 2014-06-10T21:00:54Z heddwch: Recent blogs? Clisp has been "not dead" for a good long while now 2014-06-10T21:00:56Z jasom is using a fairly old one 2010-07-17 2014-06-10T21:01:19Z orthecreedence: has it? 2014-06-10T21:01:26Z stassats: even if it works on clisp, who would want to run it on clisp? 2014-06-10T21:01:30Z orthecreedence: sucks cause it's the only one that's everywhere 2014-06-10T21:01:47Z orthecreedence: yeah i'd never run anything serious on clisp, but it sucks since everyone already has clisp 2014-06-10T21:02:15Z average: jasom: GNU CLISP 2.49 (2010-07-07) (built on localhost [127.0.0.1]) 2014-06-10T21:02:28Z jasom: orthecreedence: it's kind of crummy everywhere though. I used to get random crashes on windows (may be fixed, but was an issue as recently as 2009) 2014-06-10T21:02:32Z average: jasom: is it too load ? 2014-06-10T21:02:36Z amp801 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T21:02:40Z orthecreedence: didn't know that 2014-06-10T21:02:59Z jasom: average: what distribution are you using? 2014-06-10T21:03:11Z jasom: average: (linux distro that is) 2014-06-10T21:03:21Z orthecreedence: i want to know why ECL takes up 20mb of ram on start and clisp takes 1.5mb though 2014-06-10T21:03:30Z orthecreedence: is there a way to trim down ECL's mem usage? 2014-06-10T21:03:37Z amperry joined #lisp 2014-06-10T21:03:38Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-10T21:03:44Z average: jasom: Debian 2014-06-10T21:03:50Z dsp joined #lisp 2014-06-10T21:03:58Z stassats: orthecreedence: is this 1995? 2014-06-10T21:04:06Z orthecreedence: it is if you're embedding 2014-06-10T21:04:12Z orthecreedence: then its like 1990 2014-06-10T21:04:42Z jasom: average: can you put your .clisprc at paste.lisp.org? 2014-06-10T21:05:02Z stassats: orthecreedence: don't embed into 1990-like hardware then 2014-06-10T21:05:30Z orthecreedence: fair enough...i wasn't bashing ECL, just curious 2014-06-10T21:06:03Z jaimef joined #lisp 2014-06-10T21:06:24Z jasom: orthecreedence: ecl and ccl are 20MB-ish I think. sbcl is 40ish IIRC 2014-06-10T21:06:43Z Denommus: orthecreedence: ECL's compiler or interpreter? 2014-06-10T21:06:54Z jasom: Dynamic space usage is: 49,188,208 bytes. 2014-06-10T21:06:56Z orthecreedence: neither, just running ecl 2014-06-10T21:07:09Z orthecreedence: with -no-rc, not loading anything 2014-06-10T21:07:10Z average: jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/+327W 2014-06-10T21:07:16Z average: pasted 2014-06-10T21:07:19Z Pullphinger quit 2014-06-10T21:07:23Z Denommus: orthecreedence: so it's the interpreter :P 2014-06-10T21:07:26Z jasom: average: that looks fine 2014-06-10T21:07:31Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-10T21:07:38Z average: oh it worked !!! 2014-06-10T21:07:42Z average: it was just extremely slow ! 2014-06-10T21:07:44Z orthecreedence: ah i see what you mean 2014-06-10T21:07:51Z average: wtf is wrong with this. 2014-06-10T21:07:53Z average: I've no idea 2014-06-10T21:08:00Z average: anyhow I'm glad it did work.. 2014-06-10T21:08:07Z jasom: average: it should have printed dots to let you know it was working 2014-06-10T21:08:10Z orthecreedence: average: you might want to upgrade your 14.4 modem ;) 2014-06-10T21:08:52Z stassats: 56K is more suited to 1995 2014-06-10T21:08:55Z average: orthecreedence: I'd rather mirror the package repository actually 2014-06-10T21:09:10Z average: is it possible to mirror the Common LISP package repository somehow ? 2014-06-10T21:09:16Z Denommus: orthecreedence: have you tried to compile the Lisp file in question and run the compilation result? That's the focus of ECL, not running interactively like CCL or SBCL 2014-06-10T21:09:20Z stassats: average: what for? 2014-06-10T21:09:24Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-10T21:09:46Z orthecreedence: Denommus: i'll give that a shot really quick 2014-06-10T21:10:15Z average: stassats: for me ? 2014-06-10T21:10:43Z stassats: i don't know for whom you are doing it, but why do you need to mirror anything? 2014-06-10T21:11:05Z average: so that I don't have to download the packages if I have a slow connection. I can just throw all of them in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ or ~/quicklisp/dists/ ? 2014-06-10T21:11:10Z Lebbe joined #lisp 2014-06-10T21:11:10Z trumae_ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T21:11:10Z jchochl__ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T21:11:10Z nop0x07bc joined #lisp 2014-06-10T21:11:19Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-10T21:11:23Z average: but the thing is, I know for a fact I have a very fast connection 2014-06-10T21:11:26Z MjrTom quit (Changing host) 2014-06-10T21:11:26Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-10T21:11:26Z stassats: to mirror them, you need to download them first 2014-06-10T21:11:28Z prxq_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-10T21:11:33Z average: so that shouldn't be a problem... 2014-06-10T21:11:47Z zophy joined #lisp 2014-06-10T21:11:50Z heddwch: You have a very fast connection that happens to go very slowly? :) 2014-06-10T21:11:53Z Shinmera: Also if you mirrored them you'd be a) out of date every month b) have hundreds of (to you) probably useless packages 2014-06-10T21:12:02Z average: heddwch: I dunno man, this is puzzling 2014-06-10T21:12:03Z average: anyhow 2014-06-10T21:12:04Z stassats: so, i don't see how mirroring would help, unless you have somebody send you a usb stick by mail 2014-06-10T21:12:04Z jchochl__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-10T21:12:13Z average: I'd like to try and get a snapshot of all the packages to have them offline 2014-06-10T21:12:19Z average: jasom: I forgot to mention one detail ! 2014-06-10T21:12:44Z stassats: so, what you want is to download all packages, even if you're not going to use them, ahead of time? 2014-06-10T21:13:04Z average: initially it didn't work(it was just not pulling the damn packages). So I threw the git cl-opengl repo in both ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ and ~/quicklisp/dists/ and then did (ql:quickload "cl-opengl") again, and after like.. centuries.. it worked 2014-06-10T21:13:09Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T21:13:10Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-10T21:13:32Z stassats: do you use a proxy? 2014-06-10T21:13:32Z average: stassats: yes sir, that's my wish, I'd like to have them offline so I can eliminate this possible cause for the problem 2014-06-10T21:13:36Z nop0x07bc quit (Ping timeout: 267 seconds) 2014-06-10T21:13:40Z jasom: average: don't throw anything in ~/quicklisp/dists 2014-06-10T21:13:42Z average: then I know for sure that it has nothing to do with my connection 2014-06-10T21:13:47Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T21:13:54Z average: jasom: well I'll delete them from ~/quicklisp/dists then 2014-06-10T21:14:05Z average: stassats: I don't use a proxy 2014-06-10T21:14:05Z stassats: but to download them in the first place, you need a connection! 2014-06-10T21:14:11Z stassats: vpn? 2014-06-10T21:14:17Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-10T21:14:22Z average: stassats: I have some remote node that I can use for mirroring 2014-06-10T21:14:30Z ggole quit 2014-06-10T21:14:39Z jasom: average: you can in fact create a new distribution that can fetch packages from wherever you like. I've typically found that downloading is faster than compiling though so... 2014-06-10T21:14:44Z average: anyhow, what I was asking is for some script/program to make the mirror 2014-06-10T21:14:52Z jasom: average: yes, you can write one 2014-06-10T21:15:02Z average: stassats , jasom if you're not aware of such a script/program , I'll just write a oneliner or use httrack and download all the stuff 2014-06-10T21:15:03Z stassats: but why do any unnecessary work? 2014-06-10T21:15:21Z stassats: quicklisp downloads things only once 2014-06-10T21:15:40Z Shinmera quit (Quit: brb) 2014-06-10T21:15:43Z average: not it does not, see above how much time I waited for it, and I've described above that it wasn't downloading 2014-06-10T21:15:56Z average: stassats: do you actually read what I write sir? I've given plenty of details in this conversation 2014-06-10T21:16:12Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T21:16:40Z stassats: you are stating wrong facts, mister 2014-06-10T21:17:15Z average: stassats: I'll go and write a oneliner to download all the packages, then I will share it with you so you can download them too :) 2014-06-10T21:17:16Z jasom: quicklisp will download each system only once, that is correct. If it doesn't download the first time, then there's some other issue that need be resolved. 2014-06-10T21:18:01Z stassats: average: don't do that! it's not needed 2014-06-10T21:18:47Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-10T21:19:04Z average: ok let's approach this from a different angle 2014-06-10T21:19:20Z average: I have a firewall, but it's usually sufficienty permissive for most packets to go in/out without problem 2014-06-10T21:19:26Z average: what is the main repository/mirror of quicklisp ? 2014-06-10T21:19:35Z average: or where can I find it on my machine ? 2014-06-10T21:19:54Z stassats: have you tried running it on not-clisp? 2014-06-10T21:20:01Z average: http://beta.quicklisp.org/archive right ? 2014-06-10T21:20:46Z average: stassats: I have not tried it on non-clips lisps 2014-06-10T21:21:04Z average: stassats: but sir, why are you constantly insisting that I try it with other LISPs ? 2014-06-10T21:21:14Z Bicyclidine: cos clisp kinda blows chunks 2014-06-10T21:21:24Z average: why is clisp not good enough ? 2014-06-10T21:21:36Z average: Bicyclidine: what's wrong with clisp ? I see people using it.. 2014-06-10T21:21:54Z jasom: average: ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/distinfo.txt 2014-06-10T21:21:56Z |3b|: average: clisp doesnm 2014-06-10T21:21:56Z Bicyclidine: you don't see any of them (cept the one guy) on #lisp, see 2014-06-10T21:22:05Z |3b|: average: clisp doesn't support NaN/inf 2014-06-10T21:22:10Z stassats: average: do you not have a problem using quicklisp? 2014-06-10T21:22:22Z Bicyclidine: |3b|: what really 2014-06-10T21:22:41Z eni_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-10T21:23:09Z stassats: clisp doesn't support negative zero either 2014-06-10T21:23:18Z average: stassats: I was trying to point out that maybe quicklisp is the problem. I myself do not have a problem with clisp so far. I consider quicklisp to be the problem 2014-06-10T21:23:29Z average: however, I will add, that I have very little experience with Lisp in general 2014-06-10T21:23:31Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 2014-06-10T21:23:40Z average: and that I've only used it inside Emacs for various small configurations 2014-06-10T21:23:54Z average: so you may be right, maybe I should switch to a different LISP. which LISP should I be using ? 2014-06-10T21:23:59Z Bicyclidine: sbcl, ccl are good 2014-06-10T21:24:11Z Adlai joined #lisp 2014-06-10T21:24:12Z stassats: running it on sbcl or ccl is the easiest thing to do to rule out any "considering" 2014-06-10T21:24:20Z jasom: average: if you try it in sbcl, and it still doesn't work, we can say it's a quicklisp problem; if it does work in sbcl then maybe it's not a quicklisp problem. 2014-06-10T21:24:30Z jasom: average: it's one way of localizing the problem 2014-06-10T21:24:33Z stassats: or next thing, you'll be building your own ISP provider 2014-06-10T21:24:45Z stassats: s/provider// 2014-06-10T21:25:02Z heddwch: Which will require many trips to the ATM machine 2014-06-10T21:25:03Z Bicyclidine: i'm sure there's some smartassly phrased rule of debugging to blame yourself first 2014-06-10T21:25:11Z average: jasom: the fact that the quicklisp website provides a beta version also adds to the confusion.. that is why I've still kept quicklisp as the prime suspect for the problem.. 2014-06-10T21:25:19Z average: but I will try sbcl and ccl too and see how that goes 2014-06-10T21:25:21Z orthecreedence: hmm ecl-compiled executables also take up 20mb 2014-06-10T21:25:23Z stassats: minion: advice on compiler? 2014-06-10T21:25:23Z minion: #11907: Looking for a compiler bug is the strategy of LAST resort. LAST resort. 2014-06-10T21:25:31Z orthecreedence: oh well, not a big deal 2014-06-10T21:25:34Z Bicyclidine: there you go then 2014-06-10T21:25:51Z Bicyclidine: average: on the other hand jasom tried a clean clisp and normal quicklisp and hey, it worked 2014-06-10T21:25:54Z stassats: minion: advice on hardware? 2014-06-10T21:25:54Z minion: You can't expect automated advice for everything. 2014-06-10T21:26:30Z jchochli_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T21:26:38Z Bicyclidine: i was just dealing with some floating point nonsense that made me honestly think i'd run into some kind of fpu bug on the weird computer i'm on, and i dug deeper and oh hey it was a memory read error on my end. so it goes 2014-06-10T21:27:03Z heddwch: orthecreedence: Lisp-compiled executables tend to be the lisp + your code, so it's not going to be smaller. 2014-06-10T21:27:15Z average: Bicyclidine: and I too have tried it, and until I did some (hand-hold 'quicklisp 'by-placing-the-sources-of-packages-where-it-can-see-them) , I wasn't able to get any positive outcome 2014-06-10T21:27:23Z stassats: orthecreedence: that doesn't sound right 2014-06-10T21:27:51Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T21:27:56Z Bicyclidine: yes, but it's more likely that that's something you misconfigured than that the program used by hundreds of people all the time is obviously wrong 2014-06-10T21:28:03Z average: is ccl a short-hand for clozuer common lisp ? 2014-06-10T21:28:08Z Bicyclidine: clozure, yes 2014-06-10T21:28:10Z average: *clozure 2014-06-10T21:28:13Z average: ah, ok 2014-06-10T21:28:23Z Adlai` joined #lisp 2014-06-10T21:28:28Z Bicyclidine: not to be confused with clojure. we're not good at names, here in lisp world 2014-06-10T21:28:39Z stassats: clozure did it first 2014-06-10T21:28:51Z stassats: and clojure is not a lisp, just a wannabe, so, blame them 2014-06-10T21:28:57Z jasom: stassats: I thought it was MCL when clojure came out 2014-06-10T21:29:05Z stassats: clozure was clozure in the 80s? 2014-06-10T21:29:10Z Bicyclidine: what about closure-html, huh! 2014-06-10T21:29:46Z jasom: stassats: In 2007, Alice Hartley of Digitool announced that the code for the original MCL would be released under an open source license. Largely in order to avoid confusion with this newly open sourced version of MCL, OpenMCL was renamed to Clozure CL. 2014-06-10T21:30:04Z stassats: or was it Coral? 2014-06-10T21:30:11Z jasom: stassats: yeal coral 2014-06-10T21:30:11Z average: does sbcl have auto-complete ? what can I install/do to make it have auto-complete in the interactive/repl mode ? 2014-06-10T21:30:20Z jasom: stassats: ccl was "Coral Common Lisp" originally 2014-06-10T21:30:27Z Bicyclidine: most of us use emacs with slime, rather than an implementation at terminal 2014-06-10T21:30:40Z stassats: minion: linedit? 2014-06-10T21:30:40Z minion: linedit: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/linedit 2014-06-10T21:30:46Z stassats: for those desparate 2014-06-10T21:31:02Z cmatei_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-10T21:31:03Z jasom: average: I would blow away your quicklisp directory and try installing it again (since you mucked around in it) 2014-06-10T21:31:21Z average: jasom: I will do that 2014-06-10T21:31:38Z sunwukong quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T21:31:42Z average: but, about sbcl, the only option to get some readline/autocomplete functionality is to go with rlwrap ? 2014-06-10T21:31:48Z jasom: average: I've been using quicklisp on ecl, sbcl, ccl and clisp for a year without any issues downloading (except one time that there was an s3 outage) 2014-06-10T21:31:54Z average: or does it come with that out-of-the-box ? 2014-06-10T21:31:59Z jasom: average: if you are an emacs user, you should be using slime 2014-06-10T21:32:03Z Adlai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-10T21:32:12Z jasom: average: you can easily install slime via quicklisp 2014-06-10T21:32:19Z heddwch: ^ 2014-06-10T21:32:21Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-10T21:32:24Z jasom: then M-x slime to get a better repl than you've ever seen 2014-06-10T21:33:12Z average: jasom: so far I am only using evil-mode , projectile , but most importantly I've discovered nyan-mode today in order to help with my spatial navigation inside a file ( see this for details http://www.reddit.com/r/vim/comments/23tfsh/nyan_mode_for_vim/ ) 2014-06-10T21:33:14Z jasom: average: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-slime-helper <-- instructions there 2014-06-10T21:33:25Z stassats: minion: please tell average average about linedit 2014-06-10T21:33:25Z minion: average: you speak nonsense 2014-06-10T21:33:30Z stassats: minion: please tell average about linedit 2014-06-10T21:33:30Z minion: linedit: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/linedit 2014-06-10T21:34:08Z average: sshirokov: I will try linedit, thank you 2014-06-10T21:34:15Z average: stassats: ^^ 2014-06-10T21:34:36Z MjrTom quit (Quit: Planet Earth is blue, and there's nothing I can do) 2014-06-10T21:35:04Z jasom: average: since you're already using emacs, don't bother with linedit. Trust me. It gives you things like recompiling functions and files and finding definitions and such. 2014-06-10T21:35:16Z jasom: As well as a tab-complete repl with history 2014-06-10T21:35:25Z jasom: s/It/slime 2014-06-10T21:35:41Z average: jasom: does it also provide advanced spatial navigation like nyan-mode does ? 2014-06-10T21:36:43Z jasom: average: nyan-mode is a minor mode; you can use it with slime if you want kitten based navigation. 2014-06-10T21:36:59Z stassats: there's M-x butterfly 2014-06-10T21:37:05Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-10T21:37:21Z average: stassats: is butterfly more optimal in terms of advanced navigation than nyan-mode ? 2014-06-10T21:37:55Z nop0x07bc joined #lisp 2014-06-10T21:38:27Z stassats: orthecreedence: so, a hello world in ECL is 10203 bytes, add 4328992 bytes of libecl to that 2014-06-10T21:38:58Z orthecreedence: i got mine down to 14mb 2014-06-10T21:39:26Z orthecreedence: (mem usage, not exe size) 2014-06-10T21:40:05Z stassats: if you have so little memory, maybe CL is not the best thing to use? 2014-06-10T21:40:23Z orthecreedence: i dont think it will be an issue 2014-06-10T21:40:32Z orthecreedence: i'm just a bit surprised 2014-06-10T21:40:52Z stassats: also, performance will be limited as well 2014-06-10T21:40:56Z orthecreedence: i know CL is big, but i didnt think that big 2014-06-10T21:40:57Z heddwch: nyan mode is quite nice, lets you get an extra column by turning off scroll bars without losing a visual indicator :) (I know there's other solutions than nyan, but we all know nyan is the best one) 2014-06-10T21:41:30Z stassats: nyan has the worst name 2014-06-10T21:42:07Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-10T21:42:11Z amperry: CLOS question, for anyone interested. Suppose I have a class with a slot, "array-slot", which has an :initform '(make-array ...)' and ':accessor array-slot'; for an object *foobar*, the following works: 2014-06-10T21:42:18Z amperry: (setf (aref (array-slot *foobar*) 1 0) 10) 2014-06-10T21:42:27Z amperry: ... but I don't know if that's the most colloquial, CLOS-ish way. Is there a better general way to get/set values of array or array-like slots? 2014-06-10T21:42:47Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2014-06-10T21:42:52Z stassats: how do you expect it to look otherwise? 2014-06-10T21:42:57Z orthecreedence: looks fine to me 2014-06-10T21:43:04Z jasom: amperry: looks good to me 2014-06-10T21:43:26Z clop2 joined #lisp 2014-06-10T21:43:26Z dim: have a more specific method that does that for you if you want to hide it 2014-06-10T21:43:53Z amperry: dim: that's what I was thinking for specific cases, but didn't know what the general case might be 2014-06-10T21:44:06Z cmatei_ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T21:44:15Z dim: ISTM the general case looks like what you're showing ;-) 2014-06-10T21:44:21Z dim: (as others were saying) 2014-06-10T21:44:23Z jasom: amperry: if the array has semantic meaning to the outside world, beyond being just an array, and the array is just an implementation detail, you might make a different way to access it, but aref is the general way of doing it 2014-06-10T21:44:24Z didi quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-10T21:44:35Z amperry: groovy, that's good to hear 2014-06-10T21:45:15Z stassats: abstracting little things like that doesn't always lead to clearer code 2014-06-10T21:45:18Z jasom: amperry: if you really want to you can make a macro (or setf expander if you want to get fancy) to access an array slot, but that seems like an overkill 2014-06-10T21:45:18Z amperry: nope, the only particular thing about it is that it's a slot in a class/object 2014-06-10T21:46:10Z jasom: amperry: so I would say you *can* do it in other ways, but what you pasted is the best way. 2014-06-10T21:46:22Z amperry: thanks 2014-06-10T21:46:44Z amperry: that's what I needed to know 2014-06-10T21:47:07Z amperry: glad to know my intuition is close to the mark 2014-06-10T21:48:55Z jasom: amperry: generalized references are cool. And the implementation of them (if you ever look under the hood) is actually quite simple and elegant 2014-06-10T21:50:09Z amperry: and things like vector-push/-extend would work the same way, yes? 2014-06-10T21:50:35Z orthecreedence: yes 2014-06-10T21:50:45Z stassats: yes, they will be as slow as usual 2014-06-10T21:51:03Z cmatei_ is now known as cmatei 2014-06-10T21:51:31Z amperry: e.g.: (vector-push-extend '10 (array-slot *foobar*)) ;; assuming it was 1-dimensional 2014-06-10T21:51:45Z stassats: protip: 10 doesn't need to be quoted 2014-06-10T21:51:55Z amperry: ah 2014-06-10T21:52:10Z jasom: numbers are self-evaluationg 2014-06-10T21:52:57Z stassats: (for a moment i braced myself for a pedantic "what if he's using a different *read-base*", but then i remembered that *read-base* can't be lower than 20, dodged a bullet here) 2014-06-10T21:53:03Z stassats: than 2 2014-06-10T21:53:15Z amperry: somewhere in the back of my mind I knew that :) 2014-06-10T21:53:49Z orthecreedence: *read-base*, never heard of that 2014-06-10T21:54:06Z stassats: (setf *read-base* 2), 20 => The variable |20| is unbound. 2014-06-10T21:54:14Z stassats: '20 => |20| 2014-06-10T21:54:24Z jxv joined #lisp 2014-06-10T21:54:25Z stassats: but 10 are base safe 2014-06-10T21:54:43Z stassats: 20. is safe too 2014-06-10T21:54:44Z orthecreedence: oh weird 2014-06-10T21:54:57Z mac_ified quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T21:55:48Z amperry: thanks again, headed out 2014-06-10T21:55:49Z stassats: orthecreedence: why is it weird? 2014-06-10T21:56:15Z orthecreedence: because i've never heard of it, and off the top of my head i cant think of an immediate use 2014-06-10T21:56:26Z amperry left #lisp 2014-06-10T21:56:36Z stassats: suppose one likes octal too much? 2014-06-10T21:57:17Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-10T21:58:46Z Shinmera quit (Quit: ZzzzZ) 2014-06-10T22:00:30Z stassats: and if you want your numbers to be always decimal, use a trailing dot 2014-06-10T22:00:46Z _schulte_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-10T22:01:27Z jiteboxr joined #lisp 2014-06-10T22:02:35Z stassats: which for some reason doesn't apply to ratios 2014-06-10T22:02:54Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-10T22:03:13Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-06-10T22:03:15Z stassats: oh, and floats aren't affected by *read-base* 2014-06-10T22:04:38Z therik quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T22:05:07Z nipra quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-10T22:06:05Z orthecreedence: interesting, that makes more sense 2014-06-10T22:06:34Z stassats: but 1/10. works on ccl 2014-06-10T22:06:41Z ndrei quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-06-10T22:06:55Z mikaelj_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T22:08:45Z klltkr[ORL] quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-10T22:08:59Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-10T22:09:04Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-10T22:09:27Z juanlas joined #lisp 2014-06-10T22:09:48Z juanlas quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-10T22:10:08Z stassats: clhs 2.3.1 2014-06-10T22:10:09Z specbot: Numbers as Tokens: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ca.htm 2014-06-10T22:10:23Z fortitude quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-10T22:12:52Z jasom: for those making unixy executables with common-lisp, you may care about startup time: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142846 2014-06-10T22:14:25Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-10T22:14:28Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-10T22:14:28Z stassats: sbcl is 49 kilobytes? 2014-06-10T22:14:56Z stassats: and is this cached or not? 2014-06-10T22:15:29Z jasom: oh, size in k, not bytes 2014-06-10T22:15:38Z fragamus joined #lisp 2014-06-10T22:15:44Z jasom: and yes cached. 2014-06-10T22:15:53Z stassats: 0.65 for starting sbcl? 2014-06-10T22:15:57Z jasom: each is run once, then run 100 times by a c program 2014-06-10T22:16:05Z jasom: stassats: (/ 0.65 100) 2014-06-10T22:16:08Z fragamus: howdy I am teaching my son to program and we just picked up land of lisp 2014-06-10T22:16:15Z fragamus: I need to install lisp ASAP 2014-06-10T22:16:17Z stassats: jasom: why didn't you do that for me! 2014-06-10T22:16:53Z jasom: stassats: okay, I'll fix that then post the source for building and running the benchmark online somewhere 2014-06-10T22:16:55Z stassats: cached vs non-cached sbcl start up time: 0.003 vs 0.065 2014-06-10T22:17:14Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-10T22:17:26Z jasom: fragamus: windows linux or mac? 2014-06-10T22:17:29Z fragamus: what should I install mac 2014-06-10T22:17:47Z jasom: fragamus: do you already have one of: fink, homebrew, macports installed? 2014-06-10T22:17:49Z fragamus: also unfortunately im behind my corporate firewall 2014-06-10T22:18:03Z stassats: with a spinning rust disc, sbcl starts in 1.064 2014-06-10T22:18:05Z fragamus: I have brew but it doesn't work here at work 2014-06-10T22:18:30Z jasom: fragamus: http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html 2014-06-10T22:18:41Z fragamus: roger 2014-06-10T22:18:43Z fragamus: thanks 2014-06-10T22:18:50Z jasom: fragamus: ideally you would get quicklisp, emacs, and slime as well. 2014-06-10T22:19:15Z heddwch: huh, that's good to know, jasom. I'd heard clisp was good for startup time, apparently the landscape has changed. 2014-06-10T22:19:47Z jasom: fragamus: ooh, those are all together here http://common-lisp.net/project/lispbox/ (I haven't tried it though) 2014-06-10T22:20:07Z stassats: so, interesting run-times would be: cached, from an ssd, from an hdd 2014-06-10T22:20:32Z jasom: stassats: I don't care about uncached, since I only care about it if it's run lots of times (which means most likely cached) 2014-06-10T22:20:41Z jasom: stassats: but I could certainly add something like those 2014-06-10T22:20:52Z fragamus: mmmm http://common-lisp.net/project/lispbox/ 2014-06-10T22:20:57Z fragamus: i like this 2014-06-10T22:21:06Z stassats: jasom: but the most annoying delay is the longest one 2014-06-10T22:21:14Z average: I've just installed slime mode in Emacs 2014-06-10T22:21:24Z average: pretty cool stuff, much better than the nasty raw sbcl 2014-06-10T22:21:25Z jasom: stassats: if it starts up in 500ms or less then that's good enough for a single invokation imo 2014-06-10T22:21:47Z stassats: here it's 1 second 2014-06-10T22:21:57Z jasom: 15:15 < stassats> cached vs non-cached sbcl start up time: 0.003 vs 0.065 2014-06-10T22:22:02Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-10T22:22:08Z stassats: that's with an SSD 2014-06-10T22:22:17Z heddwch: average: Gets even nicer ;) Compile a defun with one key sequence from a file you're editing 2014-06-10T22:22:19Z jasom: ah 2014-06-10T22:22:42Z stassats: a laptop hard drive, 1 second 2014-06-10T22:22:43Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-10T22:22:50Z klltkr joined #lisp 2014-06-10T22:22:56Z stassats: vs 0.005 2014-06-10T22:24:38Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T22:25:51Z rune1 quit (Quit: rune1) 2014-06-10T22:28:20Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T22:28:32Z Oberon4278 quit 2014-06-10T22:29:18Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-06-10T22:29:36Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-06-10T22:30:46Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-06-10T22:30:50Z |3b|: fragamus: note that land of lisp assumes gnu clisp in a few places, but you should be able to find sbcl versions of the code on the net 2014-06-10T22:31:28Z stassats: sbcl --eval '(quit)' manages to run one GC 2014-06-10T22:31:47Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-10T22:32:25Z vickyb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T22:32:40Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-10T22:32:43Z fragamus quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-10T22:32:54Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-10T22:34:18Z fragamus joined #lisp 2014-06-10T22:36:25Z fragamus quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-10T22:37:39Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-10T22:37:40Z jasom: stassats: I suppose I could change it to (sb-posix:exit 0) 2014-06-10T22:38:19Z replcated joined #lisp 2014-06-10T22:38:19Z stassats: that requires sb-posix 2014-06-10T22:38:28Z jasom: also how does it manage to do a gc? 2014-06-10T22:38:44Z stassats: that doesn't depend on (quit) 2014-06-10T22:38:46Z jasom: it seems odd that the memory image wouldn't startup with at least a tiny bit of free heap 2014-06-10T22:39:04Z jasom: or does (quit) explicitly do a gc? 2014-06-10T22:39:14Z stassats: see above 2014-06-10T22:41:22Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T22:43:02Z puchacz_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-10T22:44:23Z LiamH1 joined #lisp 2014-06-10T22:45:20Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T22:47:01Z stassats: i see one place for an optimization 2014-06-10T22:47:04Z LiamH1 is now known as LiamH 2014-06-10T22:47:55Z jasom: stassats: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142846#1 (better looking output?) 2014-06-10T22:48:03Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-10T22:49:01Z stassats: is ECL really that slow? 2014-06-10T22:49:11Z stassats: 0.124 total 2014-06-10T22:51:01Z jasom: stassats: it is for me; maybe cl-launch is doing something stupid (though it is generating an ELF executable) 2014-06-10T22:52:12Z jasom: cl-launch -l ecl '(quit)' -o ecl --dump '!'; time ./ecl 2014-06-10T22:52:18Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T22:52:24Z jasom: real 0m1.031s 2014-06-10T22:52:51Z stassats: time /usr/local/bin/ecl -eval '(quit)' is 0.124 2014-06-10T22:53:16Z leo2007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-10T22:54:16Z jiteboxr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-10T22:55:06Z jasom: .079 here 2014-06-10T22:55:25Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-10T22:55:45Z jasom: This is with a built standalone executable that just calls (quit) though; that may be a different beast from the ecl repl 2014-06-10T22:56:23Z reb: sbcl --no-sysinit --no-userinit --eval '(quit)' on my Raspberry Pi is 0.24 seconds of read time. 2014-06-10T22:57:20Z stassats: so, it is a measuring contest! 0.040 on my phone 2014-06-10T22:58:04Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-10T22:59:21Z jasom: hmm 2014-06-10T22:59:55Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T22:59:56Z jasom: cl-launch is doing something stupid; I took one of my build-scripts for ecl that was pre cl-launch and adapted it to just call (quit) and it runs in about a quarter second. This is with a lot of packages loaded too. 2014-06-10T23:00:13Z vap1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T23:00:53Z jasom: minion: memo for Fare: cl-launch is generating really slow to startup executables compared to manually running (adsf:make-build ...) any idea what's going on? 2014-06-10T23:00:53Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks. 2014-06-10T23:03:19Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-06-10T23:05:01Z Sgeo joined #lisp 2014-06-10T23:08:07Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T23:08:30Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T23:08:43Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2014-06-10T23:09:04Z mhd joined #lisp 2014-06-10T23:09:12Z the8thbit joined #lisp 2014-06-10T23:10:07Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T23:10:44Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-10T23:10:51Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-10T23:10:55Z mhd quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-10T23:11:20Z fragamus joined #lisp 2014-06-10T23:12:03Z mhd joined #lisp 2014-06-10T23:14:19Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-10T23:15:18Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T23:17:09Z FracV quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T23:17:52Z jleija joined #lisp 2014-06-10T23:19:35Z Joreji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T23:19:41Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-10T23:20:37Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-10T23:23:29Z JuniorRoy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-10T23:26:34Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-10T23:28:30Z mhd quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-10T23:29:49Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-10T23:30:40Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-10T23:31:38Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-10T23:32:25Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-10T23:33:01Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-10T23:34:50Z average: is there an event-based framework for Lisp ? for example Python has Twisted, and Perl has AnyEvent and POE 2014-06-10T23:35:20Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: experience finished into permanent bleeding) 2014-06-10T23:35:38Z average: and Ruby has "State machine" I think.. 2014-06-10T23:36:19Z nha quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-10T23:36:27Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-10T23:36:36Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T23:37:03Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-10T23:37:26Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T23:37:37Z tinyblak quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T23:38:31Z _schulte_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-10T23:38:58Z nightfly: ruby has event machine 2014-06-10T23:39:16Z orthecreedence: average: cl-async 2014-06-10T23:39:22Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-10T23:39:31Z mikaelj joined #lisp 2014-06-10T23:39:43Z orthecreedence: i built it, so feel free to ask any questions 2014-06-10T23:39:56Z orthecreedence: https://github.com/orthecreedence/cl-async 2014-06-10T23:39:57Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-10T23:41:28Z jasom: average: also https://github.com/markcox80/basic-binary-ipc 2014-06-10T23:42:23Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-10T23:42:24Z jasom: average: though that only gives you the poll interface; I think cl-async has more stuff built on top of it. 2014-06-10T23:42:37Z orthecreedence: cool, didn't know about this 2014-06-10T23:43:07Z nialo_x is now known as nialo 2014-06-10T23:43:09Z orthecreedence: cl-async is more bsaic event loop + async tcp 2014-06-10T23:43:20Z orthecreedence: doesn't handle much (or any) inter-process comm 2014-06-10T23:43:21Z jasom: orthecreedence: that's what basic-binary-ipc is 2014-06-10T23:43:36Z jasom: it uses local or tcp sockets for binary ipc 2014-06-10T23:43:46Z orthecreedence: ah 2014-06-10T23:43:46Z jasom: with a non-blocking event loop 2014-06-10T23:44:23Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-10T23:44:30Z orthecreedence: got it 2014-06-10T23:44:51Z jasom: the impressive thing is that it is written with just an ffi binding to several OSes native async 2014-06-10T23:44:55Z MoALTz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-10T23:44:56Z orthecreedence: from a quick glance i thought it was 0mq-ish 2014-06-10T23:44:59Z jasom: which is insane 2014-06-10T23:45:18Z jasom: poll epoll kqueue and overlapped I/O all implemented in just lisp 2014-06-10T23:45:20Z orthecreedence: yeah seems to do its own thing vs using libuv/libevent 2014-06-10T23:45:22Z orthecreedence: which is cool 2014-06-10T23:45:32Z PuercoPop quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-10T23:45:35Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2014-06-10T23:45:47Z average: orthecreedence , jasom , nightfly thank you 2014-06-10T23:46:10Z jasom: average: see http://orthecreedence.github.io/cl-async/2013/03/26/green-threads-and-async-programming.html for a green-threads on top of cl-async 2014-06-10T23:46:10Z average: also, are there any cl packages for Gtk2/Wx/Qt ? 2014-06-10T23:46:22Z average is looking for them now 2014-06-10T23:46:23Z jasom: average: commonqt is supposed to be servicable 2014-06-10T23:46:25Z orthecreedence: http://www.cliki.net/gui 2014-06-10T23:46:27Z orthecreedence: =] 2014-06-10T23:46:37Z jasom: average: I've had no luck with the gtk bindings, there isn't wx that I know of 2014-06-10T23:46:41Z average: I've noticed not all packages on cliki are in the cl repos 2014-06-10T23:46:44Z jasom: average: I personally use ltk for gui 2014-06-10T23:46:49Z pillton: average: commonqt is great. 2014-06-10T23:46:59Z orthecreedence: i've had good luck with ltk in toy projects 2014-06-10T23:47:17Z orthecreedence: question: how does commonqt get around c++? 2014-06-10T23:47:26Z pillton: with smoke 2014-06-10T23:47:26Z jasom: orthecreedence: there are C bindings for qt 2014-06-10T23:47:27Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2014-06-10T23:47:34Z jasom: orthecreedence: generated by a program called "smoke" 2014-06-10T23:47:46Z orthecreedence: that is automatable? 2014-06-10T23:47:54Z jasom: orthecreedence: yes 2014-06-10T23:48:04Z orthecreedence: wow, never knew 2014-06-10T23:48:10Z jasom: orthecreedence: don't try running smoke on any significant non qtish project though, it will crash and burn. 2014-06-10T23:48:28Z orthecreedence: ah, is built for qt mainly? 2014-06-10T23:48:38Z stassats: also, mirrors 2014-06-10T23:48:38Z nha joined #lisp 2014-06-10T23:48:41Z orthecreedence: or was that the test case? 2014-06-10T23:48:42Z pillton: I think the meta capabilities of Qt help too. 2014-06-10T23:48:44Z jasom: orthecreedence: it works for qt, and extensions to qt pretty well though. drmeister is working on something a bit more advanced (if he ever gets his garbage collector to work) 2014-06-10T23:49:04Z orthecreedence: yeah i was talking to him a bit about his project last night, seems very cool 2014-06-10T23:49:13Z jasom: orthecreedence: it was built for qt, qt is the test case, it may (or may not) work on other code. 2014-06-10T23:49:26Z heddwch: What exactly is he doing? I thought he was just writing a lisp in C++ 2014-06-10T23:49:54Z jasom: heddwch: well, he's written clang bindings to that lisp, and is working on a c++ groveller based on clang's frontend 2014-06-10T23:50:06Z heddwch: Ahh, okay, cool! 2014-06-10T23:50:55Z jasom: he has a metacircular issue though where to integrate a real garbage collector, he needs to parse his C++ code, and doing so is causing him to run out of heap due to the toy GC he is using. 2014-06-10T23:51:21Z jasom: also, there's a hole in the bucket. 2014-06-10T23:52:19Z heddwch: heh, parsing the C++ code will end up bigger than the rest of the project in its entirety =p 2014-06-10T23:53:23Z mikaelj quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-10T23:54:03Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-06-10T23:54:48Z average: lisp is really awesome. I don't know why I haven't found it earlier.. really.. 2014-06-10T23:55:11Z orthecreedence: that's how i felt 2014-06-10T23:55:14Z pillton: average: You had to ask the right question. It is like everything. 2014-06-10T23:55:18Z orthecreedence: although it wasnt as great a few years ago 2014-06-10T23:55:33Z orthecreedence: so, good timing 2014-06-10T23:56:33Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2014-06-10T23:56:49Z jasom: the last 3-4 years have made using other people's libraries a lot easier. Which saves you from having to do as much wheel-reinventing 2014-06-10T23:57:06Z orthecreedence: yeah exactly 2014-06-10T23:57:22Z orthecreedence: it also creates more of a culture around documenting the stuff you build 2014-06-10T23:57:42Z orthecreedence: instead of just saying "works for me!! problem solved!" 2014-06-10T23:57:49Z jasom hangs his head in shame for less than 1 in 1000 functions he's written have docstrings even 2014-06-10T23:57:50Z heddwch: There's people documenting their stuff? Do they have a newsletter? 2014-06-10T23:57:56Z drmeiste_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-10T23:58:11Z jasom: though this lisp thing is more of a hobby for me anyway. 2014-06-10T23:58:31Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-10T23:58:35Z orthecreedence: i document almost everyhting 2014-06-10T23:58:41Z orthecreedence: unless i really dont want people using my stuff 2014-06-10T23:58:46Z heddwch: haha 2014-06-10T23:58:49Z fragamus quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-11T00:00:29Z mhd joined #lisp 2014-06-11T00:01:16Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-11T00:01:17Z mhd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-11T00:01:33Z mhd joined #lisp 2014-06-11T00:02:12Z pillton: I personally prefer a narrative on the system then documentation for every function/macro/class etc. The narrative shapes what is important and how it is intended to be used. 2014-06-11T00:02:24Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-06-11T00:02:37Z kpal joined #lisp 2014-06-11T00:02:53Z zRecursive: The code itself is a better document at most of time 2014-06-11T00:02:55Z orthecreedence: yeah that or concrete examples 2014-06-11T00:03:12Z orthecreedence: ehh, i dont like digging through code just to see if something does what i want 2014-06-11T00:03:16Z pillton: zRecursive: I disagree. 2014-06-11T00:03:27Z orthecreedence: a 3-line README explaining the purpose is nicer 2014-06-11T00:04:17Z heddwch: That depends. I attempted to figure out lisp-interface-library and gave up attempting to derive anything from the 50-page research paper about it. 2014-06-11T00:04:36Z orthecreedence: yeah that's a bit much 2014-06-11T00:04:39Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-11T00:05:02Z orthecreedence: like i said, sometimes a few sentences saying "here's what it does, here's when you'd use it" is the best documentation 2014-06-11T00:05:04Z jasom: well that didn't cover how it was intended to be used. Just "Look at this cool new way of doing polymorphism" 2014-06-11T00:05:09Z orthecreedence: if you want to dig into the full API, you can 2014-06-11T00:05:14Z Adlai` is now known as Adlai 2014-06-11T00:05:34Z jasom: I eventually managed to create a lil datastructure that worked. 2014-06-11T00:05:37Z orthecreedence: well done with work, gonna head home 2014-06-11T00:05:39Z orthecreedence: later dudes 2014-06-11T00:05:41Z jasom: took me a couple hours to figure out. 2014-06-11T00:05:46Z heddwch: jasom: Exactly. It had snippets of its implementation, which was less useful than looking at the code, but it's so complex I'd need to set aside a large amount of time to try and parse the code. 2014-06-11T00:05:48Z orthecreedence quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-11T00:06:02Z manfoo7` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-11T00:06:13Z mikaelj joined #lisp 2014-06-11T00:06:52Z heddwch: A few examples of /use/ would've been a good jumping-off point 2014-06-11T00:08:46Z stassats: lack of documentation is a good way to keep the unwashed away 2014-06-11T00:09:01Z fragamus joined #lisp 2014-06-11T00:09:23Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2014-06-11T00:09:40Z heddwch: If that's your goal, yea 2014-06-11T00:09:59Z pillton: The problem with using code as documentation is that it assumes that the code is final. A narrative can be finalised and now the code can change to suit that narrative. 2014-06-11T00:10:24Z pillton: Nobody programs without a mental model of what they are trying to do. 2014-06-11T00:10:47Z stassats: cargo cult things from stack-overflow? 2014-06-11T00:11:01Z average: pillton: on the other hand, there is a lot of overhead related to writing down the mental model 2014-06-11T00:11:38Z pillton: average: Of course. If you are a one man team then there is no point. 2014-06-11T00:11:49Z heddwch: pillton: I think a lot of people program without a mental model 2014-06-11T00:12:21Z mhd quit (Input/output error) 2014-06-11T00:13:02Z average: pillton: how often have you seen people documenting their code thoroughly ? 2014-06-11T00:13:07Z jasom: pillton: until you leave it alone for a year and then have to maintain it. Then you are effectively a 2 man team: you now and you from last year 2014-06-11T00:13:16Z Rptx joined #lisp 2014-06-11T00:13:18Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T00:13:21Z jasom: heddwch: fwiw http://paste.lisp.org/+3280 2014-06-11T00:13:41Z mhd quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-11T00:13:56Z heddwch: jasom: Thanks! :) That's something 2014-06-11T00:14:09Z stassats: do people really have a problem modifying their old code? that must be some bad code 2014-06-11T00:14:11Z jasom: heddwch: the interesting parts really are under-the-hood though; the tiny amount of code to make containers behave completely differently is fairly interesting 2014-06-11T00:14:13Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-11T00:15:07Z heddwch: jasom: Yea, I'm still very interested in getting it, I just had other things I could get done if I didn't try to figure it out at the time =/ 2014-06-11T00:15:20Z vkeg joined #lisp 2014-06-11T00:15:29Z jasom: stassats: people greatly vary in how long they can walk away from something and then pick it up again. For me after about 18 months, it's essentially code written by a stranger; I don't have an easier or harder time working on it than code written by someone else of approximately my skill. 2014-06-11T00:15:42Z heddwch: ^ 2014-06-11T00:15:59Z pillton: average: Almost no people in my field document their code. There is no time for it. 2014-06-11T00:16:03Z average: pillton: imagine that the authors of libraries or well-known opensource software you see, are about 0.01% of the programmers out there.. 2014-06-11T00:16:14Z stassats: jasom: but you can control the quality of the code you write 2014-06-11T00:16:26Z jasom: pillton: what's your field, out of curiousity? 2014-06-11T00:16:37Z pillton: jasom: Computer Vision. 2014-06-11T00:16:41Z average: pillton: oh people don't document their code in your field? you're in the stock market then ? 2014-06-11T00:16:41Z heddwch: It may be easy to figure out the structure of it, but if I had written something, I wouldn't have to. English is easier. 2014-06-11T00:16:48Z chu joined #lisp 2014-06-11T00:17:03Z Bike: i don't think 'thinking you don't have enough time to write docs' is limited to any one field. 2014-06-11T00:17:06Z jasom: stassats: yes, yes I can. And just like everyone else out there of approximately my skill there are tradeoffs between a dirty hack that works now and well written easily readable code that works tomorrow. 2014-06-11T00:17:44Z average: pillton: so in computer vision people don't document their code? why is that ? 2014-06-11T00:18:35Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-11T00:18:35Z pillton: average: Because algorithms are superseded too quickly. Documentation doesn't increase your chances of surviving to the next year. 2014-06-11T00:18:53Z jasom: stassats: and then on top of it, there will be tons of special-cases to work with real-world nits that get added to any system fielded for significant time. those tend to make the code less readable (though there are sometimes good ways to abstract them out) 2014-06-11T00:19:26Z stassats: well, special non-obvious cases warrant a comment or two 2014-06-11T00:19:30Z average: pillton: your chances of surviving? I wasn't aware that this is a survival game.. 2014-06-11T00:19:41Z nightfly: probably for funding 2014-06-11T00:20:36Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2014-06-11T00:21:45Z jasom: stassats: where I work svn-blame plus the commit-log are how you find what special cases are for. 2014-06-11T00:22:00Z stassats: that's too slow 2014-06-11T00:22:04Z cpc26 quit 2014-06-11T00:22:05Z zRecursive: Keeping synchronous of code and document is always a pain , though 2014-06-11T00:22:22Z jasom: stassats: well the comments in the code are wrong more often than they are right. Nobody tests the comments. 2014-06-11T00:22:38Z jasom: And if it's not tested then it doesn't work 2014-06-11T00:22:51Z stassats: ha! i don't test code either! 2014-06-11T00:22:54Z jasom: In a pinch, a formal model will substitute for testing. 2014-06-11T00:23:03Z jasom: stassats: yes you do. 2014-06-11T00:23:25Z jasom: stassats: every time you run your code, it's an informal integration test. 2014-06-11T00:23:42Z stassats: maybe i don't run it, how do you know? 2014-06-11T00:24:01Z stassats: some code paths are ran quite rarely 2014-06-11T00:24:07Z jasom: okay, perhaps you don't. If it's never run, then you'll never encounter bugs 2014-06-11T00:24:08Z zRecursive: so unit test is essential part of code 2014-06-11T00:24:57Z jasom: zRecursive: I find unit testing to be a waste of time for most programs; it often takes longer to write a useful unit-test then to come up with an integration test that exercises the same thing. 2014-06-11T00:25:01Z zRecursive: You can regard the unit testing code as document 2014-06-11T00:25:45Z stassats: that gotta be worse than the documents generated from docstrings 2014-06-11T00:26:03Z jasom: unit testing looks great for trivial cases (e.g (* (sqrt x) (sqrt x) (abs x)) but for more interesting functions it becomes much much harder to write a good unit test than to write the code itself. 2014-06-11T00:26:31Z stassats: write it when you find a bug 2014-06-11T00:26:44Z jasom: and that should have been (= (* (sqrt x) (sqrt x)) (abs x)) 2014-06-11T00:27:33Z jasom: I do like the policy that anytime you find/fix a bug, you should write a regression test. 2014-06-11T00:27:43Z TDog quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 29.0.1/20140506152807]) 2014-06-11T00:28:00Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-11T00:28:07Z jasom: you end up with the most error-prone parts of your code also being hte most tested 2014-06-11T00:28:14Z pillton: stassats: How do you work? You are very productive. 2014-06-11T00:28:19Z zRecursive: Yeah, it is somtimes hard to write a good unit testing. But it is worth writing unit testing before code 2014-06-11T00:28:30Z stassats: pillton: i don't write docstrings! 2014-06-11T00:28:32Z stassats: there, my secret 2014-06-11T00:28:36Z jasom: lol 2014-06-11T00:28:44Z pillton: heh. I walked in to that one. 2014-06-11T00:29:13Z zz_karupa is now known as karupa 2014-06-11T00:29:52Z mhd joined #lisp 2014-06-11T00:31:11Z stassats: i always want to try something like ACL2 2014-06-11T00:31:34Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-06-11T00:31:46Z jasom: I seem to recallsomeone wrote a llvm to acl2 compiler 2014-06-11T00:32:09Z stassats: i don't quite get it, what does it give? 2014-06-11T00:32:32Z jasom: stassats: http://arxiv.org/abs/1406.1566 2014-06-11T00:32:50Z JuniorRoy joined #lisp 2014-06-11T00:33:16Z jasom: zRecursive: I don't get unit-test first. Why not just write in a language with formal contracts for functions; all the benefits and downsides of TDD, but with the compiler to enforce (and take advantage of for codegen) your specification 2014-06-11T00:33:24Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-11T00:34:08Z stassats: i want to make a non-consing general LDB for sbcl, but keep stumbling upon edge cases, maybe using a formal model would be useful 2014-06-11T00:34:12Z jasom: I would use ATS before I use TDD 2014-06-11T00:34:58Z heddwch: ATS? 2014-06-11T00:35:27Z jasom: heddwch: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATS_(programming_language) 2014-06-11T00:35:49Z heddwch: jasom: Thanks :) 2014-06-11T00:35:54Z jasom: basically you can write formal proofs about your code allongside your code 2014-06-11T00:37:16Z mhd quit (Ping timeout: 185 seconds) 2014-06-11T00:37:43Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-11T00:38:32Z mhd quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-11T00:38:48Z heddwch: Interesting 2014-06-11T00:39:01Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T00:39:59Z mhd joined #lisp 2014-06-11T00:40:37Z boogie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T00:41:42Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-11T00:44:16Z fragamus quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-11T00:45:59Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T00:46:49Z fragamus joined #lisp 2014-06-11T00:47:44Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-11T00:49:51Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T00:51:40Z mhd quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-11T00:51:58Z replcated quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T00:52:50Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-11T00:53:19Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T00:53:50Z quazimodo quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-11T00:54:16Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-06-11T00:54:44Z brain_shim joined #lisp 2014-06-11T00:54:57Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-11T00:56:22Z pillton: stassats: Is the unification engine in SBCL capable of doing what you want? Perhaps part of it? 2014-06-11T00:56:45Z stassats: unification engine? 2014-06-11T00:57:19Z pillton: Pardon my ignorance. The system that determines the types of things. 2014-06-11T00:57:30Z fragamus quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-11T00:59:54Z stassats: not really 2014-06-11T01:00:39Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T01:06:09Z hodwik joined #lisp 2014-06-11T01:09:08Z JuanDaugherty: LDB? 2014-06-11T01:10:09Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-11T01:10:16Z JuanDaugherty: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_ldb.htm i guess 2014-06-11T01:10:28Z cmatei quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-11T01:11:19Z Bike: no, sbcl's low-level debugger, that starts up when things go really haywire. 2014-06-11T01:11:39Z JuanDaugherty: ah 2014-06-11T01:12:18Z JuanDaugherty: pillton intrinsic types are hard determined by the implementation in lisp, custom ones by CLOS 2014-06-11T01:12:37Z JuanDaugherty: *by the implementation per spec 2014-06-11T01:12:55Z Bike: pillton is referring to sbcl's type inference, probably 2014-06-11T01:13:22Z JuanDaugherty: which is a sbcl specific thing? 2014-06-11T01:13:30Z pillton: JuanDaugherty: That is the information you need to know if something is going to cons no? 2014-06-11T01:13:42Z zophy joined #lisp 2014-06-11T01:13:44Z stassats: it looks like everybody is talking about different things 2014-06-11T01:14:01Z average is still in nyan-mode 2014-06-11T01:14:05Z pillton: e.g. You can't multiply 2 bignums. 2014-06-11T01:14:12Z JuanDaugherty: that's what happens when acronyms are used and aren't clearly determined by context 2014-06-11T01:14:40Z JuanDaugherty: acronyms or any terms ftm 2014-06-11T01:15:20Z JuanDaugherty didn't know this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner-platform_effect had a name 2014-06-11T01:16:28Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-11T01:17:48Z doomlord_1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-11T01:19:18Z hodwik quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-11T01:19:39Z hodwik joined #lisp 2014-06-11T01:20:08Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-11T01:20:09Z hodwik quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-11T01:20:25Z hodwik joined #lisp 2014-06-11T01:22:17Z harish joined #lisp 2014-06-11T01:26:44Z kpal quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-11T01:31:11Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2014-06-11T01:31:59Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-11T01:35:40Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-11T01:38:48Z doomlord_1 quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-11T01:40:34Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-11T01:43:14Z lyanchih_ joined #lisp 2014-06-11T01:43:45Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2014-06-11T01:43:57Z ThomasH: JuanDaugherty: See also: Greenspun's Tenth Rule. Literally, that is a See also reference on that page. 2014-06-11T01:44:18Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2014-06-11T01:44:20Z ThomasH: That's the first thing that came to my mind. 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2014-06-11T03:46:22Z Zhivago: Creating monsters. 2014-06-11T03:46:42Z ThomasH: hodwik: What sort of work is lisp not useful for? 2014-06-11T03:46:50Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-11T03:47:05Z heddwch: hodwik: Mostly WMDs 2014-06-11T03:47:29Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T03:49:44Z KCL__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-11T03:50:08Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-11T03:50:42Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-11T03:51:53Z hodwik: What sort of tasks does lisp specifically excel at 2014-06-11T03:52:19Z Bike: causing bizarre arguments 2014-06-11T03:52:33Z heddwch: hodwik: Programming 2014-06-11T03:52:39Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-11T03:52:53Z hodwik: Heh 2014-06-11T03:53:17Z heddwch: Okay, to be somewhat serious, what languages do you know? 2014-06-11T03:53:23Z H4ns: hodwik: it is true. lisp is fun to program in. you can write anything in it. 2014-06-11T03:53:24Z ThomasH: hodwik: Lisp will do anything you would do in any other language, with the benefit of removing the edit-comple-execute process. 2014-06-11T03:53:31Z hodwik: I used to live next door to Loper of LoperOS and he'd always say basically LISP would best if computers were built for it 2014-06-11T03:53:50Z hodwik: but if they're not, why not use something closer to the instruction set? 2014-06-11T03:53:58Z H4ns: hodwik: why do? 2014-06-11T03:54:03Z ThomasH: hodwik: That's 80's and 90's talk. People are putting up with much slower languages now, see python. 2014-06-11T03:54:24Z heddwch: hodwik: Because then you'd be writing assembly 2014-06-11T03:54:30Z hodwik: I see 2014-06-11T03:54:36Z H4ns: hodwik: people stopped building special purpose lisp machines because general purpose systems became fast enough to run lisp 2014-06-11T03:54:44Z hodwik: Is lisp on par with python for speed? 2014-06-11T03:54:49Z ThomasH: Faster 2014-06-11T03:54:51Z H4ns: hodwik: it is much faster, generally 2014-06-11T03:55:06Z H4ns: hodwik: also, it gives you way better optimization tools. 2014-06-11T03:55:12Z ThomasH: hodwik: And most Lisp implementations have a better interface to C than python. 2014-06-11T03:55:21Z stassats: hodwik: like assembly? 2014-06-11T03:55:27Z Zhivago: Languages don't have speed -- but pretty much anything is faster than the cpython implementation. 2014-06-11T03:55:49Z heddwch: Note that many large web applications are written in Ruby, Python, PHP.. Modern lisps are faster than all of these. 2014-06-11T03:56:11Z Zhivago: The c ruby implementation is even worse than cpython, from memory. 2014-06-11T03:56:26Z Bike left #lisp 2014-06-11T03:56:47Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-06-11T03:58:17Z hodwik: This is very surprising, I was always told LISP was very slow, I had interpreted that as meaning slower than Py/ruby/etc 2014-06-11T03:58:46Z stassats: you can hear all kinds of nonsense nowadays 2014-06-11T03:58:53Z hodwik: As a lazy python programmer, will LISP allow me to be as lazy going forward if I learn it? 2014-06-11T03:59:08Z H4ns: hodwik: no. 2014-06-11T03:59:42Z heddwch: hodwik: It's because the criticism is ancient, before slow languages became popular. Nobody cared about slow enough to rival the complaining about lisp with complaining about ruby/python/etc 2014-06-11T04:00:32Z heddwch: became popular for production* There was always basic and such =p 2014-06-11T04:00:55Z Zhivago: Well, it's also because computers were really slow. 2014-06-11T04:01:09Z Zhivago: Using an rpi is like going back to a 90s unix workstation. :) 2014-06-11T04:01:11Z ThomasH: hodwik: I think there is going to be a big issue with python going forward since the BDFL decide to make v3 incompatible with v2. 2014-06-11T04:01:13Z heddwch: Well, yea 2014-06-11T04:01:32Z hodwik: A big issue? 2014-06-11T04:01:36Z stassats: ThomasH: good thing CL isn't going anywhere 2014-06-11T04:01:44Z heddwch: Speaking of which, CCL on RPi is perfectly fine =p 2014-06-11T04:02:01Z Zhivago: thomash: It will cause a lot of dead libraries to become more obviously dead. Other than that ... 2014-06-11T04:02:08Z H4ns: what is the fastest way, in sbcl, to make a string from some piece of mapped memory? i have a sap, an offset and a size. 2014-06-11T04:02:27Z lyanchih_ quit (Quit: lyanchih_) 2014-06-11T04:02:39Z H4ns: 8 bit ascii will suffice. 2014-06-11T04:02:42Z hodwik: Zhivago: agreed 2014-06-11T04:02:44Z H4ns: 7bit of course. 2014-06-11T04:03:22Z hodwik: H4ns: could you clarify your earlier "no." please? 2014-06-11T04:03:40Z stassats: H4ns: make-array + vector-sap + sap-ref-word 2014-06-11T04:03:45Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-11T04:04:03Z stassats: the fastest would be to use sb-simd, but that would be too much hassle 2014-06-11T04:04:06Z H4ns: hodwik: lisp is a convenient language, but it is not easy to learn. it does not cater for lazy programmers, in particular in the beginning. 2014-06-11T04:04:08Z MjrTom quit (Quit: Planet Earth is blue, and there's nothing I can do) 2014-06-11T04:04:09Z ThomasH: Zhivago: I see it being used as the in commercial settings where the cost of switching will be too much. I suspect they'll keep using v2. 2014-06-11T04:04:15Z H4ns: stassats: thanks, i'll look that up 2014-06-11T04:04:58Z heddwch: hodwik: An important bit would be understanding what you mean by 'lazy' 2014-06-11T04:06:09Z hodwik: heddwch: wanting to perform as much computer joules with as little effort and learning as possible 2014-06-11T04:06:38Z hodwik: as in, means to an end programming 2014-06-11T04:06:42Z heddwch: Ah, yea, the latter would be a problem, but I think it is everywhere 2014-06-11T04:08:06Z hodwik: Er, python allows me to get an awful lot done already after about a week of studying it -- H4ns seems to be answering definitively 'no.' 2014-06-11T04:08:43Z stassats: H4ns: and vector size (or everything else) is double-word aligned, so you don't to worry about that, only for the source 2014-06-11T04:08:55Z ThomasH: minion: tell hodwik about pcl 2014-06-11T04:08:55Z minion: hodwik: have a look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2014-06-11T04:08:56Z stassats: don't need to 2014-06-11T04:09:03Z H4ns: stassats: is sap-ref-octets not recommended? it looks convenient. 2014-06-11T04:09:28Z ThomasH: Work through that, hodwik, it will give you a good idea. 2014-06-11T04:09:38Z stassats: H4ns: do you not want a string? 2014-06-11T04:09:44Z H4ns: stassats: i do. 2014-06-11T04:09:55Z H4ns: stassats: but sap-ref-word gives me a machine word, no? 2014-06-11T04:10:06Z axion: hodwik: i used to be a huge python programmer. i find i can express more in less code (faster) with Lisp, making it better for RAD than even Python imo 2014-06-11T04:10:33Z stassats: H4ns: it does 2014-06-11T04:11:44Z H4ns: stassats: (sb-ext:octets-to-string (sb-sys:sap-ref-octets (start-sap *f*) 300 30)) seems to fit the bill for now. thanks for your help! 2014-06-11T04:11:57Z stassats: but that's slow! 2014-06-11T04:12:28Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-11T04:12:44Z H4ns: stassats: ah, that is where vector-sap comes into play. i will do some more research :) 2014-06-11T04:13:27Z stassats: simple-base-string has the 7-bit ascii layout 2014-06-11T04:15:43Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T04:15:43Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T04:16:12Z H4ns: stassats: would i make an array and then manipulate the vector-sap of it? 2014-06-11T04:17:31Z hodwik: what editor should I use for Common lisp? 2014-06-11T04:17:38Z H4ns: hodwik: emacs 2014-06-11T04:18:04Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-06-11T04:18:19Z hodwik: w/ Slime, no? 2014-06-11T04:18:34Z H4ns: hodwik: yes. google for "modern common lisp slime" 2014-06-11T04:18:35Z normanrichards joined #lisp 2014-06-11T04:19:59Z stassats: H4ns: something like http://paste.lisp.org/display/142849 2014-06-11T04:20:07Z stassats: untested 2014-06-11T04:20:14Z hodwik: will I regret installing these from deb binaries? 2014-06-11T04:20:26Z H4ns: hodwik: yes 2014-06-11T04:20:30Z H4ns: stassats: thanks! 2014-06-11T04:21:01Z H4ns: stassats: so basically, your method does not use byte-wide access and also does not convert from ub8 to character, right? 2014-06-11T04:21:02Z stassats: using sb-kernel:%vector-raw-bits can probably dispel with-pinned-objects 2014-06-11T04:21:47Z stassats: it copies 8(4) characters at a time, but you need the same layout and the same endianness 2014-06-11T04:22:17Z jchochli quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-11T04:22:44Z stassats: a test: (mts (sb-sys:vector-sap (string 'list)) 0 4) => "LIST" 2014-06-11T04:22:47Z stassats: does seem to work 2014-06-11T04:22:48Z H4ns: stassats: thanks! i think i'll go with the slow method for now until i find that it is too slow. i have to deal with a few gigabytes of ascii data. 2014-06-11T04:22:51Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-11T04:23:39Z H4ns: stassats: (mts (sb-sys:vector-sap (string 'listx)) 0 5) gives me garbage :) 2014-06-11T04:24:02Z stassats: that's because 'listx's name isn't a base-string 2014-06-11T04:24:11Z H4ns: but 'lists' is? 2014-06-11T04:24:19Z stassats: yes 2014-06-11T04:24:31Z H4ns: why's that? 2014-06-11T04:24:43Z Xach quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T04:25:00Z stassats: to save space, naturally 2014-06-11T04:25:35Z Xach joined #lisp 2014-06-11T04:25:53Z stassats: and sbcl doesn't use anything except ascii, so it can do that with its own symbols 2014-06-11T04:26:02Z H4ns: hm. ok, thanks :) 2014-06-11T04:27:21Z H4ns: stassats: but then, is it safe to assume that the memory allocated for an array is always padded to sb-vm:n-word-bytes size? 2014-06-11T04:27:30Z H4ns: stassats: i guess that it is, just want to make sure. 2014-06-11T04:27:39Z stassats: yes, i mentioned that earlier 2014-06-11T04:28:17Z boogie joined #lisp 2014-06-11T04:28:25Z H4ns: ah, i did not understand it when you said it first. i think i'm good now, finally. thanks again. 2014-06-11T04:28:31Z stassats: and you can write junk past the length marker, it won't be visible normally 2014-06-11T04:31:13Z stassats: H4ns: this should be better: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142849#1 2014-06-11T04:31:20Z hodwik quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-11T04:32:14Z foreignFunction joined #lisp 2014-06-11T04:33:08Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T04:33:19Z stassats: might as well have safety 0, because you can't be any unsafe than this 2014-06-11T04:33:20Z H4ns: the start argument does not seem to be a byte offset, right? 2014-06-11T04:33:39Z stassats: for %vector-raw-bits, it's word offset 2014-06-11T04:33:42Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-06-11T04:33:59Z H4ns: does it mean that i can only access word aligned strings? 2014-06-11T04:34:41Z stassats: you can handle unaligned edges specially 2014-06-11T04:35:58Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-11T04:36:41Z stassats: but you shouldn't worry about alignment for the result string, unless you need to 2014-06-11T04:36:51Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-11T04:37:17Z stassats: you can access memory unaligned, although it will tend to be slower 2014-06-11T04:37:42Z H4ns: ok - this will be it for now, i think i know how to squeeze out some more speed if i need to. 2014-06-11T04:38:04Z Soft quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-11T04:38:44Z H4ns: maybe the best way is to map the file, completely convert to a simple-base-string and then operate only on that, using lisp string operations. 2014-06-11T04:40:31Z stassats: if you're adventurous, you can make sbcl tread mmapped memory as a string directly 2014-06-11T04:43:23Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-11T04:43:32Z JuniorRoy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-11T04:46:46Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-11T04:46:56Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-11T04:47:28Z ThomasH left #lisp 2014-06-11T04:48:14Z ggole joined #lisp 2014-06-11T04:50:38Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-11T04:50:49Z erikc joined #lisp 2014-06-11T04:54:08Z stassats: H4ns: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142849#2 2014-06-11T04:54:12Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-11T04:54:31Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2014-06-11T04:56:23Z stassats: s/sb-vm:fixnum-tag-mask/sb-vm:n-fixnum-tag-bits/ 2014-06-11T04:56:32Z stassats: auto-completed the wrong ting 2014-06-11T04:59:36Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-11T05:00:40Z stassats: can you do that in python? 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2014-06-11T06:05:13Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2014-06-11T06:05:54Z stassats: you can play with mmap to mmap a prefix region before that and write tags there 2014-06-11T06:06:19Z H4ns: i'll have to benchmark first anyhow 2014-06-11T06:06:51Z H4ns: my competition needs hours for the same process anyway, so anything like a few minutes will do just fine. 2014-06-11T06:07:39Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-11T06:07:41Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-06-11T06:10:51Z nop0x07bc quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T06:12:51Z varjag_ joined #lisp 2014-06-11T06:16:36Z stassats: H4ns: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142849#3 2014-06-11T06:16:58Z Hydan` joined #lisp 2014-06-11T06:17:08Z H4ns: the unstoppable, thanks! :) 2014-06-11T06:17:46Z H4ns: wow, that is pretty neat, actually 2014-06-11T06:18:54Z erikc quit (Quit: erikc) 2014-06-11T06:19:36Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-06-11T06:19:48Z stassats: the kernel may refuse to give you the fixed address, but i figure if it gave one page, the other will be sequential, but that's not guaranteed 2014-06-11T06:20:29Z stassats: i think you can make overlapped mmaps 2014-06-11T06:21:15Z michael_lee quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T06:24:03Z jchochli quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T06:25:43Z stassats: that works: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142849#4 2014-06-11T06:26:01Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-11T06:26:23Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-11T06:26:47Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-11T06:27:55Z My_Hearing is now known as Mon_Ouie 2014-06-11T06:28:05Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T06:28:16Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-11T06:28:45Z stassats: it starts looking more and more useful 2014-06-11T06:28:52Z H4ns: indeed. 2014-06-11T06:28:59Z DataLinkDroid quit (Quit: Disconnecting -- bye) 2014-06-11T06:29:20Z CatMtKing quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-06-11T06:29:42Z prxq joined #lisp 2014-06-11T06:30:02Z orthecreedence quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-11T06:30:51Z l_a_m quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-11T06:30:58Z ramkrsna quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T06:33:16Z H4ns: how will the garbage collector see such mapped strings? 2014-06-11T06:33:42Z stassats: it should just ignore it 2014-06-11T06:34:37Z stassats: since it doesn't point into the dynamic space, it will consider as if it were a number 2014-06-11T06:34:48Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-11T06:35:04Z stassats: maybe it won't work on non-x86oids with precise gc 2014-06-11T06:35:25Z stassats: but ppc is big-endian anyway 2014-06-11T06:35:36Z H4ns: so if i unmap the regions and never access the string after that, no memory will be lost, right? 2014-06-11T06:35:54Z H4ns: but if i unmap and try to access the string, i'll get a fault. 2014-06-11T06:36:03Z stassats: sounds about right 2014-06-11T06:36:39Z H4ns: ok, that'll work for me. i'll add a way to make unmapping possible then. 2014-06-11T06:37:13Z H4ns: eat that, python. 2014-06-11T06:37:55Z nop0x07bc joined #lisp 2014-06-11T06:38:07Z heddwch: H4ns: It did, and spat out code 2014-06-11T06:38:30Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-11T06:40:33Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T06:40:58Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2014-06-11T06:41:20Z protist joined #lisp 2014-06-11T06:42:00Z stassats: it should be alright on precise gengc too, since they are supposed to handle stack allocated objects 2014-06-11T06:43:05Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-11T06:44:22Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-11T06:48:51Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2014-06-11T06:50:09Z l_a_m joined #lisp 2014-06-11T06:50:43Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-11T06:57:57Z prxq_ joined #lisp 2014-06-11T06:59:37Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T07:00:38Z c74d quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-11T07:02:11Z nydel quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-11T07:02:30Z nydel joined #lisp 2014-06-11T07:02:48Z zRecursive left #lisp 2014-06-11T07:03:48Z c74d joined #lisp 2014-06-11T07:04:51Z xificurC joined #lisp 2014-06-11T07:05:24Z Krystof joined #lisp 2014-06-11T07:07:36Z Puffin joined #lisp 2014-06-11T07:07:37Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-11T07:08:24Z mr-foobar joined #lisp 2014-06-11T07:09:35Z Okasu joined #lisp 2014-06-11T07:09:38Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T07:13:28Z rune1 joined #lisp 2014-06-11T07:15:03Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-11T07:15:58Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T07:18:03Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-11T07:18:40Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-11T07:19:00Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-11T07:19:59Z arenz joined #lisp 2014-06-11T07:20:13Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-06-11T07:24:49Z jchochli quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-11T07:28:43Z lukego joined #lisp 2014-06-11T07:34:15Z H4ns: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142849#5 2014-06-11T07:34:16Z axion: how can i modify this to make it include :autofocus and :value in the return only if they have non-nil values (keywords supplied to wrapper function), rather than keeping the keyword with a nil value? http://paste.lisp.org/display/142851 2014-06-11T07:36:40Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-11T07:37:31Z H4ns: `((<:input ,@(when focus '(:autofocus "autofocus")))) ? 2014-06-11T07:38:44Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-11T07:38:49Z dim: H4ns: did you create a file-mapped-string class only to be able to register a finalizer on your instances? 2014-06-11T07:39:00Z axion: ah yes forgot about splicing 2014-06-11T07:39:04Z axion: thanks 2014-06-11T07:39:17Z H4ns: dim: yes - it is there in order to have something subject to garbage collection. 2014-06-11T07:40:33Z dim: I'm wondering how much of that technique I might be able to use in pgloader, for the internal "batch" data structure (vector of vector of simple-strings) 2014-06-11T07:40:42Z Puffin is now known as BitPuffin 2014-06-11T07:41:04Z dbushenko joined #lisp 2014-06-11T07:41:45Z H4ns: it is generally advised against using finalizers for resource deallocation, because the objects might not actually be collected at all. 2014-06-11T07:42:09Z H4ns: but if that is acceptable to you, the technique might work. 2014-06-11T07:42:58Z dim: I'm not ready to understand the finest details of all that and don't have the time now to learn about them, nor to fail so many times trying that I would end up understanding some things about them 2014-06-11T07:43:05Z dim: will just keep that in mind for lated 2014-06-11T07:43:07Z dim: later 2014-06-11T07:44:04Z dim: it's just that my main difficulties now in pgloader are 1. the GC and consing behaviour and 2. cleaning up the code again and again to cons less and achieve better performances 2014-06-11T07:44:58Z dim: (and 3. add so many new features, such as moar threads and pipelines and data switching clauses with several targets per source and oh my) 2014-06-11T07:45:46Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-11T07:45:50Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-11T07:45:50Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2014-06-11T07:50:00Z tinyblak_ joined #lisp 2014-06-11T07:50:52Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2014-06-11T07:51:02Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-11T07:51:07Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-06-11T07:51:18Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T07:52:17Z axion: hmm, that didn't work as expected 2014-06-11T07:52:23Z Luxanctus joined #lisp 2014-06-11T07:52:44Z Luxanctus left #lisp 2014-06-11T07:53:03Z axion: i must clarify, i still need for <:input to return it's value in this function, rather than returning the new form 2014-06-11T07:54:47Z H4ns: ah, <:input is a function, i failed to realize that. 2014-06-11T07:55:17Z H4ns: well, maybe that html library gives you a way to achive what you need then. that seems like the only proper way. 2014-06-11T07:55:31Z H4ns: if not, you're maybe not using the right html library :) 2014-06-11T07:56:07Z heddwch: Duh, it's obviously happy input, which could only be a function of something that makes it happy 2014-06-11T07:56:19Z axion: it's madnificent's sexml library 2014-06-11T07:56:34Z JuniorRoy joined #lisp 2014-06-11T07:56:40Z H4ns: sexy 2014-06-11T07:56:47Z heddwch: hehe 2014-06-11T07:57:02Z H4ns: if it is sexy, then it will have a way to do what you want, no? or you can make it sexy. 2014-06-11T07:57:04Z axion: it basically creates a < package out of the shema of whatever xml format you choose 2014-06-11T07:57:20Z axion: not much else 2014-06-11T07:57:32Z heddwch: ah, all right 2014-06-11T07:57:33Z axion: just a nice interning hack 2014-06-11T07:58:39Z ramkrsna quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-11T07:58:55Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-11T08:02:29Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2014-06-11T08:02:29Z ramkrsna quit (Changing host) 2014-06-11T08:02:29Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2014-06-11T08:04:34Z Beetny joined #lisp 2014-06-11T08:12:49Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2014-06-11T08:14:07Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-11T08:14:36Z nha quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-11T08:16:25Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-11T08:18:56Z Colleen joined #lisp 2014-06-11T08:19:50Z Shinmera quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-11T08:21:00Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-06-11T08:25:25Z jchochli quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T08:26:53Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T08:27:59Z kral is now known as mdallastella 2014-06-11T08:28:18Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T08:29:16Z jaakko joined #lisp 2014-06-11T08:29:19Z dbushenko quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-11T08:29:31Z jaakko is now known as Jaaqo 2014-06-11T08:30:01Z Jaaqo quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-11T08:30:31Z jaakko joined #lisp 2014-06-11T08:30:31Z jaakko is now known as Jaaqo 2014-06-11T08:31:29Z theos joined #lisp 2014-06-11T08:34:37Z DGASAU` is now known as DGASAU 2014-06-11T08:42:20Z dbushenko joined #lisp 2014-06-11T08:42:59Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-11T08:44:19Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T08:45:00Z shridhar joined #lisp 2014-06-11T08:45:45Z pjb joined #lisp 2014-06-11T08:46:09Z pjb is now known as Guest40923 2014-06-11T08:46:52Z JuniorRoy quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-11T08:50:53Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-11T08:51:05Z [SLB] quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T08:53:15Z Guest40923 left #lisp 2014-06-11T08:53:50Z cmatei joined #lisp 2014-06-11T08:55:49Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-06-11T08:56:50Z varjag_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-06-11T08:57:00Z chu joined #lisp 2014-06-11T08:59:52Z ramkrsna quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T09:03:01Z prxq_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T09:06:03Z anler joined #lisp 2014-06-11T09:06:29Z the8thbit quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T09:10:11Z brandonz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-11T09:10:16Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-11T09:14:26Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-11T09:14:37Z anler quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T09:16:43Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-11T09:16:50Z jiteboxr joined #lisp 2014-06-11T09:16:58Z jiteboxr quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-11T09:17:05Z jiteboxr joined #lisp 2014-06-11T09:17:16Z jiteboxr quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-11T09:17:28Z jiteboxr joined #lisp 2014-06-11T09:17:50Z wz1000 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T09:18:56Z brandonz joined #lisp 2014-06-11T09:19:32Z nialo quit 2014-06-11T09:21:46Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-06-11T09:24:33Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-11T09:24:41Z nug700_ quit (Quit: bye) 2014-06-11T09:25:28Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-11T09:26:17Z jchochli quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T09:27:30Z karupa is now known as zz_karupa 2014-06-11T09:27:42Z tinyblak_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-11T09:29:16Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2014-06-11T09:29:55Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-06-11T09:32:17Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-11T09:32:52Z Hydan quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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(Client Quit) 2014-06-11T11:42:25Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-11T11:42:41Z lyanchih_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T11:43:20Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2014-06-11T11:43:51Z tinyblak_ joined #lisp 2014-06-11T11:44:01Z pjb joined #lisp 2014-06-11T11:44:25Z pjb is now known as Guest19470 2014-06-11T11:44:40Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T11:45:59Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T11:46:27Z Guest19470 is now known as pjb` 2014-06-11T11:46:39Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2014-06-11T11:49:35Z pjb: http://cliki.net says: Index of / .ftpquota cgi-bin/ Apache/2.2.23 (Unix) mod_ssl/2.2.23 OpenSSL/1.0.0-fips mod_auth_passthrough/2.1 mod_bwlimited/1.4 FrontPage/5.0.2.2635 Server at clicki.net Port 80 2014-06-11T11:50:10Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-11T11:50:10Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-11T11:50:15Z jtz joined #lisp 2014-06-11T11:50:15Z jtz quit (Changing host) 2014-06-11T11:50:15Z jtz joined 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Then you can find out which class it uses, but probably the first two words are length and element type. 2014-06-11T14:27:25Z stassats: and this doesn't look like the same vector 2014-06-11T14:28:58Z arenz joined #lisp 2014-06-11T14:29:24Z jusss_ is now known as jusss 2014-06-11T14:29:45Z jusss quit (Changing host) 2014-06-11T14:29:45Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-11T14:30:04Z francogrex: well I assume 0x00000400 is ~ integer 1? 2014-06-11T14:30:04Z ikki quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-11T14:30:19Z stassats: no, it's a fixnum 10 2014-06-11T14:30:36Z Zhivago: The last two bits will be the tag for that case, so divide by 4. 2014-06-11T14:30:50Z stassats: wait, it's hex, so, it's 256 2014-06-11T14:31:08Z stassats: francogrex: this is not the memory of the vector you are showing 2014-06-11T14:32:22Z chu joined #lisp 2014-06-11T14:32:36Z stassats: there goes the usual, "what are you trying to do?" 2014-06-11T14:33:09Z jiteboxr joined #lisp 2014-06-11T14:33:17Z mvilleneuve_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-11T14:33:23Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-11T14:33:46Z stassats: and, you are not untagging the pointer, so, you get an unaligned printed numbers 2014-06-11T14:34:22Z stassats: use (logandc2 #x2492815F sb-vm:lowtag-mask) instead 2014-06-11T14:34:39Z francogrex: understand how integer are reprsented and if floating point or fixed point numbers are used... but strange that it is not the proper vector probably because of the tag that you and Zhivago mentioned 2014-06-11T14:34:50Z stassats: see above 2014-06-11T14:34:57Z housel joined #lisp 2014-06-11T14:35:05Z stassats: it does look like the vector, but shifted 2014-06-11T14:35:26Z francogrex: ok 2014-06-11T14:36:12Z stassats: and your "how integer are reprsented and if floating point or fixed point numbers are used" sentence doesn't make much sense 2014-06-11T14:37:00Z oleo: integers is a class, fixed point is a type..... 2014-06-11T14:37:01Z francogrex: well 48.5 I would like to know how 2014-06-11T14:37:03Z oleo: type lattice.... 2014-06-11T14:37:09Z stassats: there's no "fixed point" numbers in sbcl 2014-06-11T14:37:14Z francogrex: or 45.8 whatever 2014-06-11T14:37:35Z stassats: it's allocated somewhere else and you see a pointer 2014-06-11T14:37:53Z oleo: there's fixnum tho... 2014-06-11T14:38:02Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T14:38:30Z Oberon4278 joined #lisp 2014-06-11T14:38:47Z huza quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2014-06-11T14:38:51Z Krystof: francogrex: read , chapter 37 2014-06-11T14:38:58Z stassats: (and your sentence makes sens, i just misread it) 2014-06-11T14:39:32Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-06-11T14:40:13Z stassats: and you are probably better off asking directly how something is represented, instead of showing something and then asking to decrypt what you did 2014-06-11T14:41:52Z francogrex: ok but I get a better understanding now 2014-06-11T14:43:07Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T14:44:59Z Oberon4278 is now known 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You cannot forward declare nested classes. 2014-06-11T14:49:56Z jusss quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-11T14:51:09Z drmeiste_: I need to write an enum into the header of every object that MPS manages so that each object is self-describing to the MPS scanner. 2014-06-11T14:51:42Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-11T14:52:00Z drmeiste_: I generate that enum within my static analyzer once I have identified every class that MPS will manage - currently 1659 C++ classes. 2014-06-11T14:52:16Z drmeiste_: Many of those are template class instantiations. 2014-06-11T14:52:53Z drmeiste_: Now the problem is that the memory allocation functions don't know what enum to write into the header. 2014-06-11T14:53:04Z drmeiste_: But they do know the C++ type. 2014-06-11T14:53:51Z drmeiste_: So I have a template class: template GCInfo { static KindEnum Kind = KIND_Dummy; }; 2014-06-11T14:54:01Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-11T14:54:05Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-06-11T14:54:16Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-11T14:56:04Z zacharias quit (Quit: Bye!) 2014-06-11T14:56:32Z drmeiste_: This translates from the "typename T" to a KindEnum value. 2014-06-11T14:56:54Z drmeiste_: My static analyzer generates template specializers for every C++ class. 2014-06-11T14:57:13Z francogrex: this is how it is: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142854#1 2014-06-11T14:57:20Z drmeiste_: template <> GCInfo { static KindEnum Kind = KIND_Cons_O; }; 2014-06-11T14:57:41Z stassats: francogrex: that's better 2014-06-11T14:58:05Z drmeiste_: Unfortunately, you have to have each template parameter class declared already before you can use it. 2014-06-11T14:58:20Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-11T14:58:28Z drmeiste_: I generate forward declarations for every class. 2014-06-11T14:58:34Z stassats: francogrex: so, b2 is the widetag, 28 is the length (fixnumized) 4 is a fixnum 1, and 0x2492b987 is a pointer to the single-float 2014-06-11T14:58:46Z drmeiste_: However LLVM has some nested classes that I can't forward declare - ARGH. 2014-06-11T14:59:20Z stassats: francogrex: and again, you didn't untag the pointer to the float 2014-06-11T14:59:44Z cpc26_ quit 2014-06-11T14:59:51Z drmeiste_ is now known as drmeister_ 2014-06-11T15:00:03Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-11T15:00:07Z ThePhoer1n is now known as ThePhoeron 2014-06-11T15:00:29Z arenz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-11T15:01:29Z Okasu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T15:01:31Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-06-11T15:01:34Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-11T15:01:53Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-11T15:02:31Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T15:04:22Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-11T15:06:03Z uzo joined #lisp 2014-06-11T15:08:58Z ikki joined #lisp 2014-06-11T15:09:43Z ramkrsna quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-11T15:09:54Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-06-11T15:11:41Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-11T15:12:17Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-11T15:12:50Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-11T15:14:42Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-11T15:14:56Z fortitude: drmeister_: it's been an awfully long time since I've done any C++ work, but would it be more useful to just template with the enum value instead of templating by class? 2014-06-11T15:15:49Z francogrex quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.1.2 $Revision: 1.796.2.4 $ (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-11T15:17:32Z drmeister_: fortitude: Unfortunately the enum name/value is generated by my code and I would have to hand code into every allocation. It's not even possible for templated classes. 2014-06-11T15:18:01Z drmeister_: They have names/values like: KIND_GCOBJECT_core__VectorObjects_O = 0x20038, 2014-06-11T15:18:21Z drmeister_: And a templated one looks like: KIND_GCOBJECT_clbind__Wrapper_std____1__vector_std____1__unique_ptr_clang__ASTUnit_std____1__default_delete_clang__ASTUnit___std____1__allocator_std____1__unique_ptr_clang__ASTUnit_std____1__default_delete_clang__ASTUnit_____class_std____1__vector_class_std____1__unique_ptr_class_clang__ASTUnit__struct_std____1__default_delete_class_clang__ASTUnit_____class_std____1__allocator_class_std____1__unique_ptr_clas 2014-06-11T15:18:22Z drmeister_: s_clang__ASTUnit__struct_std____1__default_delete_class_clang__ASTUnit________P_ = 0x2003a, 2014-06-11T15:18:26Z drmeister_: Fun huh? 2014-06-11T15:19:58Z drmeister_: The compile time "glue" that gets you from the type to the enum is a template specializer: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/aad6a451c75e138ba761 2014-06-11T15:20:44Z misv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-11T15:21:09Z Xach: that is some human readable goodness 2014-06-11T15:21:21Z misv joined #lisp 2014-06-11T15:21:23Z drmeister_: And the problem I'm encountering is that the classes have to be declared (forward declared is ok) before the specializer is defined. 2014-06-11T15:21:53Z drmeister_: This works fine for simple classes and namespace nested classes. But classes nested in classes can not be forward declared. 2014-06-11T15:22:23Z drmeister_: The only other solution I can see is to modify my code to put the specializers after every class declaration that they specialize on. 2014-06-11T15:22:45Z drmeister_: But that won't work for template classes because they are implicitly declared. C++ sucks. 2014-06-11T15:23:04Z drmeister_: Sucks, sucks, sucks. 2014-06-11T15:24:06Z drmeister_: I could pull the inner class declarations out of the outer class declarations - remove the nesting. 2014-06-11T15:24:09Z interlocutor joined #lisp 2014-06-11T15:24:43Z fortitude: the implicit declaration should be an issue because you can specialize on a templated type, e.g. GCInfo >, no? 2014-06-11T15:24:48Z fortitude: *shouldn't 2014-06-11T15:24:52Z drmeister_: This is only a problem if the inner classes contain smart-ptrs that need to be updated by the garbage collector. 2014-06-11T15:25:12Z drmeister_: And this only applies to some LLVM classes that I hacked to expose them to Common Lisp. 2014-06-11T15:26:17Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2014-06-11T15:26:25Z ramkrsna quit (Changing host) 2014-06-11T15:26:25Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2014-06-11T15:26:52Z drmeister_: fortitude: I don't understand. It would read more like class Foo { class Bar{...contains smart-ptr...}}; template <> GCInfo{...}; 2014-06-11T15:27:52Z drmeister_: I should be able to hand transform this to class Foo {...}; class Bar {...}; template <> GCInfo{...}; template <> GCInfo{...}; 2014-06-11T15:28:28Z drmeister_: Foo might not even contain smart pointers... Hmmm 2014-06-11T15:28:46Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-11T15:28:55Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-11T15:34:47Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-11T15:37:31Z ikki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T15:37:57Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-11T15:39:13Z rune1 joined #lisp 2014-06-11T15:42:21Z splittist: I can see why the profusion of parentheses in lisp would offend those used to the crisp syntax of C++... 2014-06-11T15:45:19Z oGMo: splittist: ;) 2014-06-11T15:45:21Z drmeister_: Crisp syntax of C++ - (cough) - I disagree, but I don't want to argue. Parentheses in CL replace the profusion of "{}<>;[]()." characters in C++/C. 2014-06-11T15:45:59Z oGMo: i'm pretty sure splittist was being sarcastic 2014-06-11T15:46:41Z oGMo: but i literally have an easier time reading the erland LLVM example than the C++ example ... and i know zero erlang, and enough C++ to hack on LLVM 2014-06-11T15:46:58Z CatMtKing joined #lisp 2014-06-11T15:46:59Z drmeister_: Oh - apologies - I've spent too much time arguing with weenies in ##C++. 2014-06-11T15:47:04Z oGMo: heh 2014-06-11T15:47:54Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-11T15:48:22Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2014-06-11T15:48:45Z mr-fooba_ joined #lisp 2014-06-11T15:49:06Z mr-foobar quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-11T15:49:17Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-06-11T15:50:06Z protist quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-11T15:50:15Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-11T15:50:24Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-11T15:50:32Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-06-11T15:50:42Z drmeister_: I'm about to fork my first branch in git to try pulling some nested classes apart. I just commit my current work: git branch class-sep-branch; git checkout class-sep-branch; and away I go? I can switch back to the main branch and the changes I make in class-sep-branch will be safe in the branch? 2014-06-11T15:51:12Z mr-fooba_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-11T15:51:32Z mr-foobar joined #lisp 2014-06-11T15:53:53Z stassats: just git checkout -b class-sep-branch 2014-06-11T15:55:45Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-06-11T15:56:33Z mr-fooba_ joined #lisp 2014-06-11T15:56:48Z mr-foobar quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-11T15:58:09Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-11T16:01:42Z drmeister_: Hmmm, it appears that I can pull these classes apart if forward declare the (formerly) inner class and make it a friend of the outer class. 2014-06-11T16:04:14Z drmeister_: Sorry for all the C++ chatter folks - it helps to put ideas to words and its CL related and if I say anything in ##C++ I usually have half a dozen people providing free psychoanalysis and providing colorful speculation regarding my ancestry. 2014-06-11T16:06:24Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-06-11T16:07:07Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T16:07:08Z tinyblak_ joined #lisp 2014-06-11T16:07:32Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-11T16:07:42Z FracV: drmeister_: I've been debuggin 15-year-old VB written by a man with severe problems 2014-06-11T16:07:53Z FracV: Whatever you're doing will sound like heaven to me 2014-06-11T16:08:43Z FracV: I hate C++, but I at least respect it 2014-06-11T16:08:54Z drmeister_: FracV: Well, thank you. 2014-06-11T16:10:41Z FracV: How is it CL related? 2014-06-11T16:11:41Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-11T16:12:12Z FracV: Also it's worth saying that git is initially complex, but I've been forced to use TFS for the last few months and goddamn do I miss it 2014-06-11T16:13:28Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-06-11T16:13:40Z average quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-11T16:13:57Z hugod quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T16:14:28Z drmeister_: FracV: I'm starting to get the hang of git after several years of using svn. I like it a lot. The key insight for me was that I have a repository on my local system that I communicate with using "git commit". 2014-06-11T16:14:36Z hugod joined #lisp 2014-06-11T16:16:04Z heddwch quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-06-11T16:17:04Z heddwch joined #lisp 2014-06-11T16:17:07Z tinyblak_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T16:18:57Z ramkrsna quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T16:20:36Z Lefeni joined #lisp 2014-06-11T16:20:44Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-11T16:21:25Z varjagg quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-11T16:22:51Z tensorpudding joined #lisp 2014-06-11T16:23:31Z lyanchih quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T16:29:23Z boogie joined #lisp 2014-06-11T16:32:43Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T16:33:34Z FracV quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-11T16:35:45Z JuanitoJons joined #lisp 2014-06-11T16:36:38Z drmeister_: I pulled apart those classes - can't find anymore by eye - now I have to run the static analyzer and wait five hours to see if there are more. (sigh) 2014-06-11T16:37:03Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-11T16:37:45Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-11T16:37:58Z splittist: drmeister_: as long as you feel you're making progress. Certainly from the outside the problems you are facing look different (: 2014-06-11T16:38:36Z drmeister_: Yeah I'm moving forward - but the pace drives me crazy. 2014-06-11T16:39:57Z drmeister_: I'm at the tip of this technological pyramid and so much stuff has to work to get me here. Maddening. 2014-06-11T16:40:44Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T16:41:08Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-11T16:41:29Z drmeister_: Compile the C++ code - 30 min. Compile the CL code - 30 min. Run the static analyzer - 5 hours. Compile the C++ code with the static analyzer generated code - 30 min but currently generating compiler errors. --> Running static analyzer code == Nirvana. 2014-06-11T16:43:07Z CatMtKing quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-06-11T16:45:00Z CatMtKing joined #lisp 2014-06-11T16:46:24Z yrk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T16:46:43Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T16:48:20Z therik joined #lisp 2014-06-11T16:48:32Z vlnx_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-11T16:50:25Z vlnx joined #lisp 2014-06-11T16:53:04Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-06-11T16:53:26Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2014-06-11T16:53:26Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-06-11T16:54:57Z mhd_ joined #lisp 2014-06-11T16:57:00Z jayson joined #lisp 2014-06-11T16:57:04Z JuniorRoy joined #lisp 2014-06-11T16:57:20Z jayson is now known as Guest82631 2014-06-11T16:57:31Z drmeister_: Git branches work really well. 2014-06-11T16:59:00Z drmeister_: I was always nervous about branching in svn - never got the hang of it. 2014-06-11T17:01:46Z dlowe: branching is fine in svn. It's merging that's hell 2014-06-11T17:02:43Z _5kg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T17:03:17Z oGMo: or using branches, .. or using svn 2014-06-11T17:03:40Z varjag_ joined #lisp 2014-06-11T17:04:07Z mhd_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T17:05:41Z mhd_ joined #lisp 2014-06-11T17:06:26Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-06-11T17:06:41Z fragamus joined #lisp 2014-06-11T17:07:36Z Guest82631 left #lisp 2014-06-11T17:08:31Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-11T17:10:37Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-06-11T17:11:18Z drmeister_: Ah, merging - I haven't done that in git yet - later today if this branch continues to work as it seems to be. 2014-06-11T17:13:41Z gniourf joined #lisp 2014-06-11T17:15:37Z dlowe: Merging in git can be just as painful, but afterwards, you just have a commit with more than one parent, and everything works pretty normally 2014-06-11T17:16:08Z malbertife joined #lisp 2014-06-11T17:17:43Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-11T17:17:54Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-11T17:18:59Z stassats: can't hear ya over me using CVS 2014-06-11T17:19:35Z oGMo: yes i'm sure the mechanical switches are quite deafening 2014-06-11T17:20:49Z stassats: well, actually i no longer have access to any projects with CVS, slime was the last to be subsumed by the git machine 2014-06-11T17:21:15Z dlowe: (finally) 2014-06-11T17:21:34Z dlowe: I'd been using the git mirror for more than seven years 2014-06-11T17:21:45Z oGMo: thankfully ;P that and like .. flexichain are the only things in my cvs dir 2014-06-11T17:22:21Z stassats: you should pester beach to migrate it 2014-06-11T17:23:02Z dlowe: It helps that using github is just ridiculously pleasant for an open source project 2014-06-11T17:23:13Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2014-06-11T17:23:28Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2014-06-11T17:29:05Z shridhar quit (Quit: shridhar) 2014-06-11T17:34:45Z orthecreedence joined #lisp 2014-06-11T17:35:01Z wz1000 joined #lisp 2014-06-11T17:35:39Z FracV joined #lisp 2014-06-11T17:36:00Z 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2014-06-11T18:28:57Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-11T18:30:06Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-11T18:31:10Z zophy joined #lisp 2014-06-11T18:31:52Z BlastHardcheese quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-11T18:31:57Z wchun quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-11T18:34:45Z JuanitoJons joined #lisp 2014-06-11T18:36:40Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-11T18:37:42Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-11T18:37:55Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T18:39:56Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T18:42:06Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-11T18:42:47Z ThomasH joined #lisp 2014-06-11T18:42:54Z ThomasH: Greetings lispers! 2014-06-11T18:43:01Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-11T18:43:57Z lduros joined #lisp 2014-06-11T18:44:19Z sheilong joined #lisp 2014-06-11T18:44:30Z nicdev: hey ThomasH 2014-06-11T18:47:34Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-11T18:48:56Z AdmiralBumbleBee joined #lisp 2014-06-11T18:49:53Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-11T18:50:37Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T18:51:41Z Hydan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-11T18:51:51Z drmeiste_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-11T18:52:20Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-11T18:52:44Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-11T18:52:44Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-11T18:53:17Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-11T18:54:20Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-11T18:56:49Z mr-fooba_ is now known as mr-foobar 2014-06-11T19:00:00Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T19:00:02Z oleo puts shoes off and calls himself mr-barfoo...... 2014-06-11T19:00:06Z oleo: lol 2014-06-11T19:00:14Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-11T19:02:02Z Longlius joined #lisp 2014-06-11T19:03:32Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-11T19:06:54Z cyraxjoe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-11T19:07:08Z MightyJoe joined #lisp 2014-06-11T19:07:22Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2014-06-11T19:07:22Z oleo is now known as Guest24323 2014-06-11T19:07:32Z Vutral quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-11T19:07:32Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-11T19:07:46Z oleo__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-11T19:08:25Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2014-06-11T19:08:32Z Guest24323 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-11T19:08:39Z oleo__ is now known as oleo 2014-06-11T19:09:11Z amuul joined #lisp 2014-06-11T19:10:33Z amirahmad92 joined #lisp 2014-06-11T19:11:23Z amirahmad92: hello 2014-06-11T19:11:45Z pjb: Hello! 2014-06-11T19:12:10Z amirahmad92: may i know ur real name? 2014-06-11T19:12:17Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-11T19:12:23Z pjb: You may, if you're smart enough. 2014-06-11T19:12:31Z amirahmad92: wat profession r u in? 2014-06-11T19:12:40Z pjb: Computer programming. 2014-06-11T19:12:40Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-11T19:12:55Z oleo: sup 2014-06-11T19:13:06Z oleo: hello pjb 2014-06-11T19:13:13Z oleo: :) 2014-06-11T19:13:24Z amirahmad92: Ya me too 2014-06-11T19:13:36Z amirahmad92: do u know javascript? 2014-06-11T19:13:57Z pjb: Not like Neo knows Kung Fu. 2014-06-11T19:14:05Z stassats: what's with your keyboard? is it missing keys? 2014-06-11T19:14:19Z heddwch: :D 2014-06-11T19:15:49Z amirahmad92: lol.seriously i'm asking do u knw javascript? 2014-06-11T19:15:53Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-11T19:16:01Z Shinmera: It's getting worse too 2014-06-11T19:16:16Z H4ns: amirahmad92: this channel is about common lisp. if you don't know it, you're in the wrong channel. 2014-06-11T19:16:20Z Xach: amirahmad92: If you'd like to talk about Common Lisp, feel free. Otherwise, go away. 2014-06-11T19:16:22Z H4ns: amirahmad92: you may now leave. 2014-06-11T19:16:24Z ThomasH starts a charity drive to get amirahmad92 vowels. 2014-06-11T19:16:52Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-11T19:17:23Z vinleod quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-06-11T19:17:24Z ThomasH: Well, I guess consonants, too. 2014-06-11T19:17:35Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-06-11T19:17:50Z anler joined #lisp 2014-06-11T19:17:56Z heddwch: More keys and/or fingers in general. 2014-06-11T19:18:37Z anler: hello, does someone know why position-if-not function is deprecated? 2014-06-11T19:18:49Z stassats: it isn't 2014-06-11T19:18:56Z amirahmad92: ok my mistake...... 2014-06-11T19:19:11Z H4ns: anler: you can ignore all the depecation notes for the -if-not functions. 2014-06-11T19:19:23Z pjb: Because of the mind set of the people who wrote the standard at the time. But since deprecation depends on the next standard, and no next standard is expected in our life time, you can just ignore it. 2014-06-11T19:19:26Z stassats: and all other depecation notes for that matter 2014-06-11T19:19:26Z anler: H4ns:ah ok, 2014-06-11T19:19:49Z stassats: anler: but the idea was that you would use (remove-if (complement x)), which turned out to be a bad idea 2014-06-11T19:19:55Z pjb: And in anycase, if you like those functions, use them, so it'll be harder for them to be deprecated by the next standard, whenever it will be. 2014-06-11T19:20:07Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-11T19:20:30Z pjb: Well, you could write remove-if complement, and expect compiler macro on remove-if to transform it into a remove-if-not if it's more efficient. 2014-06-11T19:20:30Z anler: ok, thanks a lot! 2014-06-11T19:20:50Z pjb: But you couldn't write this compiler macro yourself, since only the implementation is allowed to do so on symbols exported from CL. 2014-06-11T19:20:55Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-11T19:23:13Z amirahmad92 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-06-11T19:23:19Z ThomasH: One of the things that I like about Common Lisp is the numerics, but in http://lispm.de/30ycltl (thanks Xach), it states the numerics were "another controversial issue." Would the mailing list archives cover this "controversy"? 2014-06-11T19:23:47Z stassats: for lispers, anything is controversial 2014-06-11T19:23:53Z pjb: Well, one thing that's missing is a real Real type. 2014-06-11T19:23:54Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-06-11T19:24:25Z pjb: And there are some quirks with complexes (integer complexes, ratio complexes, float complexes, mixed complexes). 2014-06-11T19:25:28Z stassats: ThomasH: and it was the eighties, people were afraid it would make things too slow 2014-06-11T19:25:59Z pjb: People had so strange ideas in the eighties… 2014-06-11T19:26:01Z Xach: I wonder how controversial a read-base of 10 was. 2014-06-11T19:26:12Z pjb: Very, at first. 2014-06-11T19:27:18Z ThomasH: Found a good entry -> http://cl-su-ai.cddddr.org/msg05858.html 2014-06-11T19:27:59Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-06-11T19:28:23Z ThomasH: I like how the transcendtal functions recognize branch cuts. 2014-06-11T19:28:42Z heddwch: 10 was probably a compromise after prolonged arguing about 8 or 16 =p 2014-06-11T19:28:43Z ch077179 joined #lisp 2014-06-11T19:29:02Z orthecreedence: seriously? 2014-06-11T19:29:08Z stassats: 10 is a safe choice, all bases are base 10 in that base 2014-06-11T19:29:12Z orthecreedence: i'd be pissed if it was anything other than 10 2014-06-11T19:29:19Z orthecreedence: probably never would have picked up the language honestly 2014-06-11T19:29:21Z sellout: Xach: My language has a default read-base of 12. It’d be controversial if anyone cared. 2014-06-11T19:29:28Z Joreji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T19:30:02Z heddwch: orthecreedence: Wouldn't really have made any difference to me if it were 16, though I don't care for octal, being an odd number of bits and all 2014-06-11T19:30:20Z orthecreedence: i suppose 2014-06-11T19:30:28Z orthecreedence: 10 just seems so natural though 2014-06-11T19:30:46Z stassats: octal is natural too 2014-06-11T19:30:48Z sellout: orthecreedence: Not natural, just common. 2014-06-11T19:30:52Z heddwch: ^ 2014-06-11T19:30:59Z orthecreedence: fair enough 2014-06-11T19:31:29Z pjb: octal was natural on 18 or 36-bit computers. 2014-06-11T19:31:41Z pjb: a character was 2 or 3 octal digits. 2014-06-11T19:31:42Z ThomasH: "Issue 96: Are several versions of pi necessary?" I've always wondered how they arrived on double-float pi only. 2014-06-11T19:32:48Z ThomasH is bookmarking the mailing list page. 2014-06-11T19:33:01Z Bike_ joined #lisp 2014-06-11T19:33:16Z ThomasH: So I can quit wasting time pondering the motivation for things in CL. 2014-06-11T19:34:00Z stassats: it's not double float 2014-06-11T19:34:31Z ThomasH: I've not seen PI return anything else. 2014-06-11T19:34:35Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-11T19:35:07Z ThomasH: On the implementations I've played with, at least. 2014-06-11T19:35:28Z stassats: that's not related to pi 2014-06-11T19:35:28Z Bike_ is now known as Bike 2014-06-11T19:35:44Z ThomasH: How is typing PI not related to PI? 2014-06-11T19:35:59Z Bike: huh, it's actually a long float 2014-06-11T19:36:01Z stassats: you could try reading the entry on pi 2014-06-11T19:36:04Z stassats: clhs pi 2014-06-11T19:36:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pi.htm 2014-06-11T19:36:36Z stassats: if an implementation has long float == double float, so pi will be double float too 2014-06-11T19:36:54Z stassats: on clisp, pi => 3.1415926535897932385L0 2014-06-11T19:37:06Z ThomasH: Okay, then every implementation I've experimented with does that. Never found clisp useful. 2014-06-11T19:37:14Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T19:37:46Z mr-foobar quit 2014-06-11T19:37:58Z jasom: ThomasH: I think sbcl on x86 had long float too, right? 2014-06-11T19:38:06Z stassats: it doesn't 2014-06-11T19:38:48Z |3b|: arbitrary precision long floats is one of the nice features of clisp that most other implementations don't have 2014-06-11T19:38:54Z jasom: so no way to use the x87 to the full? 2014-06-11T19:38:59Z JuanDaugherty quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T19:39:12Z heddwch: Anybody know if SBCL still supports i586? 2014-06-11T19:39:15Z |3b|: who still uses x86/x87? :p 2014-06-11T19:39:23Z stassats: |3b|: sbcl x86 2014-06-11T19:39:30Z |3b|: stassats: who uses that? :p 2014-06-11T19:39:36Z stassats: |3b|: francogrex 2014-06-11T19:39:43Z |3b|: ah, oh then 2014-06-11T19:39:55Z jasom: stassats: sbcl x86 is still x87 not sse? I didn't know that. 2014-06-11T19:40:27Z Sir_herrbatka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-11T19:40:43Z |3b|: clisp long floats can be longer than x87 though 2014-06-11T19:40:50Z stassats: and the choice of having pi the largest float is quite obvious, you can convert it to lower precision floats 2014-06-11T19:41:03Z stassats: having 25 different pi is absurd 2014-06-11T19:42:23Z ThomasH: Sure, that makes sense. Having always seen the double-float representation, it never occurred to me that that was a result of the representation of longs. Didn't bother reading the hyperspec 2014-06-11T19:42:36Z stassats: cmucl has extended floats, but they are not long floats 2014-06-11T19:42:45Z stassats: ext:dd-pi => 3.1415926535897932384626433832795w0 2014-06-11T19:42:52Z stassats: dd as in double-double-float 2014-06-11T19:42:55Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2014-06-11T19:43:55Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-11T19:43:57Z alpha-: sbcl can do arbitrary precision floats through mpfr 2014-06-11T19:44:34Z jasom was speaking with someone who was involved in 754; his impression was "Kahan stacked the board with former students and pushed through a bunch of extra crap nobody wanted" 2014-06-11T19:45:10Z stassats: so, maclisp and lml had octal by default 2014-06-11T19:45:12Z jasom: I get the impression that it was far mor acrimonious than any of the debates for features in CL 2014-06-11T19:45:20Z Rptx joined #lisp 2014-06-11T19:46:46Z Sir_herrbatka joined #lisp 2014-06-11T19:47:34Z stassats: and some other interesting things, like "When comparing numbers of differing datatypes for numerical equality, you must first coerce the numbers to be of the same datatype before calling EQUAL; otherwise, EQUAL will return NIL." 2014-06-11T19:47:41Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T19:48:02Z Xach: People who live through and witness the standardization process seem to have a much more negative view of the result than those who experience it independently. "It could have been so much better if was done !" 2014-06-11T19:49:04Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-11T19:49:33Z ThomasH: At one point in time, I was concerned with short-, single-, double-, and long-floats, but after a while of only seeing single- and double- and getting informational or warning messages about representation, I quit thinking about single- and long-. Didn't seem that anyone really cared that much. 2014-06-11T19:49:58Z mr-foobar joined #lisp 2014-06-11T19:50:07Z stassats: clisp has short floats 2014-06-11T19:50:24Z ThomasH: I would have guessed that given it also has long. 2014-06-11T19:50:33Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-11T19:50:51Z jasom: clisp has one of the most complete numeric stacks I've witnessed 2014-06-11T19:51:06Z dlowe: Clisp gets it all from libgmp 2014-06-11T19:51:13Z stassats: does it? 2014-06-11T19:51:23Z jasom: dlowe: I thought that was true, but someone contradicted me when I said that a while back 2014-06-11T19:51:36Z Bike quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-11T19:51:37Z lukego joined #lisp 2014-06-11T19:51:44Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-11T19:51:50Z dlowe: Oh? Something must have changed then 2014-06-11T19:52:13Z Xach: I don't think so. 2014-06-11T19:52:24Z Krystof: no, it's never been true 2014-06-11T19:52:25Z Xach: It's something like a common developer. 2014-06-11T19:52:38Z anler quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T19:52:39Z ehaliewicz joined #lisp 2014-06-11T19:52:46Z dlowe: "Both versions did use GMP, GCL still does. A bit of Googling turned 2014-06-11T19:52:46Z dlowe: up that CLN was written by Bruno Haible - one of the original CLisp 2014-06-11T19:52:46Z dlowe: authors. CLN is newer than the GCL fork so I'm guessing CLisp has 2014-06-11T19:52:46Z dlowe: switched bignum libraries." 2014-06-11T19:53:01Z jasom: Paul Khuong said it didn't use gmp on hn 2014-06-11T19:53:28Z dlowe: ah, well. 2014-06-11T19:53:33Z c3w joined #lisp 2014-06-11T19:53:38Z ThomasH: So... is CLISP perfect or do people no longer care about it? 2.49 released 2010-07-07. That's a little surprising. 2014-06-11T19:53:38Z angavrilov_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T19:53:58Z Xach: Perfectly neglected. 2014-06-11T19:54:00Z stassats: ThomasH: the latter 2014-06-11T19:54:06Z stassats: only pjb cares about it 2014-06-11T19:54:22Z stassats: and people who think that readline is the best thing 2014-06-11T19:54:23Z Xach: The mailing list is still active, the bug tracker is active, source control is active, but no releases. 2014-06-11T19:54:27Z jasom: ThomasH: its being updated it regularly 2014-06-11T19:54:34Z jasom: just no releases 2014-06-11T19:54:42Z jasom: They even have a GSoC project I think 2014-06-11T19:54:46Z ThomasH: jasom: Ok, suspected that could be the case. 2014-06-11T19:55:18Z stassats: they must have changed their repository, because i see no activity 2014-06-11T19:55:37Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-11T19:57:38Z jasom: stassats: are you looking at an hg repo? 2014-06-11T19:58:01Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-11T19:58:02Z stassats: i now i'm looking at the right repo, and i wouldn't call that active 2014-06-11T19:58:17Z foreignFunction quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-11T19:58:57Z Rosario_ is now known as Rosario 2014-06-11T19:58:58Z Rosario quit (Changing host) 2014-06-11T19:58:58Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-11T19:59:08Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T19:59:20Z stassats: and i can't see a gsoc project 2014-06-11T20:00:06Z jasom: stassats: https://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/project/details/google/gsoc2014/fnaticshank/5649050225344512 2014-06-11T20:00:17Z stassats: i now see, it's under gnu project 2014-06-11T20:02:07Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:03:43Z seangrove quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T20:03:43Z Bike quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-11T20:03:47Z jcowan joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:03:58Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:05:15Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:06:10Z drmeiste_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-11T20:06:37Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:06:37Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:07:42Z trumae quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-11T20:07:54Z drmeist__ joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:08:00Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-11T20:08:04Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-11T20:08:10Z stassats: maclisp had something called "fix" and "fixnum", which are different things 2014-06-11T20:08:14Z trumae joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:08:39Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:08:40Z stassats: FIXNUMP "Predicate returns true iff q is a fixnum;" and FIXP "Predicate returns T if q is an integer (fixnum or bignum)" 2014-06-11T20:09:31Z stassats: "PLUS returns the sum of its arguments, which may be any kind of numbers." and "+ returns the sum of its arguments. The arguments must be fixnums and the result is always a fixnum. Overflow is ignored." 2014-06-11T20:09:31Z stassats: 2014-06-11T20:09:43Z stassats: and +$ for floats 2014-06-11T20:10:17Z stassats: 1+ had three functions too, ADD1, 1+, 1+$ 2014-06-11T20:10:30Z stassats: how did people even like lisp back in the day? 2014-06-11T20:10:43Z drmeiste_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T20:10:46Z oGMo: heh 2014-06-11T20:11:10Z ThomasH: It's all relative 2014-06-11T20:11:33Z ThomasH: Why did paleolithic and neolithic people only use stone tools? 2014-06-11T20:11:53Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T20:12:09Z Xach: I don't know, why? 2014-06-11T20:12:19Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T20:12:22Z ThomasH: The should have used their iPhones to order better tools from Amazon. 2014-06-11T20:12:32Z Xach: Hmm, not as funny as I expected. 2014-06-11T20:12:56Z ThomasH: I don't do standup 2014-06-11T20:13:04Z oGMo: i would have at least expected "because compared to the alternatives, they rocked" 2014-06-11T20:13:15Z Xach: oGMo: quite an improvement 2014-06-11T20:13:18Z ThomasH: That's much better 2014-06-11T20:13:19Z stassats: and // is for fixnum divison, and \ is a fixnum version of REMAINDER 2014-06-11T20:13:29Z oGMo: Xach: i'd prefer a groan over a headscratch 2014-06-11T20:14:31Z stassats: ThomasH: well, if the weren't using stone tools, it wouldn't be called paleo_lithic_ 2014-06-11T20:14:32Z ehu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-11T20:15:00Z Shinmera: It's all the fault of historians. 2014-06-11T20:16:06Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:17:15Z stassats: and scheme has string-length, etc, to this day 2014-06-11T20:17:19Z stassats: "elegant" 2014-06-11T20:17:47Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:18:18Z Bike quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-11T20:18:44Z oGMo: i find "sterile" a better description than "elegant" 2014-06-11T20:19:05Z jcowan: 'Lithic people certainly used tools that were not stone; it's just that those tools have not survived. 2014-06-11T20:19:07Z francogrex joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:19:09Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:19:21Z jcowan: stassats: Flexible. 2014-06-11T20:19:29Z stassats: so, // is fixnum division, \ is fixnum REMAINDER, and \\ is fixnum GCD 2014-06-11T20:19:31Z jcowan: Roll your own object system. 2014-06-11T20:19:54Z stassats: i now know why the AI Winter happened 2014-06-11T20:21:09Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:21:34Z Rosario quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T20:22:00Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:22:02Z jcowan: stassats: Okay, why? 2014-06-11T20:22:40Z stassats: and back to FIXP, so, there are two types for integers, FIXNUM and BIGNUM, BIGP is a predicate for BIGNUM, and FIXP is a predicate for (or fixnum bignum) 2014-06-11T20:25:03Z vkeg joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:25:05Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T20:25:05Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-11T20:25:42Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:25:48Z francogr` joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:26:03Z Rosario quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T20:26:19Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:26:25Z Rosario quit (Changing host) 2014-06-11T20:26:25Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:27:07Z trumae quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T20:27:34Z Vivitron quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-11T20:27:50Z francogrex quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T20:28:56Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-11T20:29:30Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:30:53Z francogr` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-11T20:31:08Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T20:33:28Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2014-06-11T20:34:14Z zeitue joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:34:37Z zeitue: question what is the official way to write common-lisp? 2014-06-11T20:34:43Z nialo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-11T20:35:04Z stassats: Common Lisp 2014-06-11T20:35:09Z stassats: CL, common lisp, cl 2014-06-11T20:35:09Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:35:26Z stassats: ℄ 2014-06-11T20:35:34Z sroy_ quit (Quit: Quitte) 2014-06-11T20:35:42Z heddwch: ☭ 2014-06-11T20:35:48Z Sir_herrbatka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-11T20:36:23Z zeitue: so there is none is that it? 2014-06-11T20:36:34Z rune1 quit (Quit: rune1) 2014-06-11T20:36:39Z zeitue: or is it just anyway 2014-06-11T20:36:49Z stassats: there's no central lisp committee 2014-06-11T20:36:54Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:37:00Z rune1 joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:37:02Z Zag: Keyboard may help 2014-06-11T20:37:27Z Vivitron joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:37:28Z heddwch: What does an official way to write it mean? 2014-06-11T20:37:28Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:37:59Z stassats: approved by the general line of the party 2014-06-11T20:38:05Z nug700 joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:38:11Z heddwch: heh 2014-06-11T20:38:24Z dlowe: If you want to get official, it's ANSI INCITS 226-1994 (R2004) American National Standard for Programming Language Common LISP (X3J13) 2014-06-11T20:38:40Z zeitue: OK I understand 2014-06-11T20:38:56Z stassats: anything but "clisp", really 2014-06-11T20:38:57Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-11T20:39:19Z pnpuff left #lisp 2014-06-11T20:39:20Z dlowe notes that the standard actually uses all-caps lisp 2014-06-11T20:39:50Z Xach: the shame 2014-06-11T20:39:53Z _death: well it was 20 years ago 2014-06-11T20:39:53Z Anarch quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:53Z rvchangue quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:53Z bhyde quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:53Z ramus quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:53Z samebchase quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:53Z InvalidCo quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:53Z p_l|backup quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:53Z jsnell quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:53Z fridim_ quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:54Z __main__ quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:54Z whartung quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:54Z ahungry quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:54Z AeroNotix quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:54Z ozzloy quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:54Z jackdaniel quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:54Z joga quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:54Z clog quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:54Z les quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:54Z tessier quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:54Z fmu quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:54Z j_king quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:54Z zxq9 quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:55Z ecraven quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:55Z yroeht quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:55Z mdallastella quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:55Z peccu3 quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T20:39:59Z joga joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:40:01Z jsnell joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:40:01Z clog joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:40:01Z Anarch joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:40:01Z LiamH: Does "R2004" mean that it was revised in 2004? 2014-06-11T20:40:01Z AeroNotix joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:40:04Z ozzloy joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:40:04Z ozzloy quit (Changing host) 2014-06-11T20:40:04Z ozzloy joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:40:05Z ThomasH: zeitue: Write it however you want, the vast majority of people still won't have a clue what you are talking about. 2014-06-11T20:40:06Z jackdaniel joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:40:08Z p_l|backup joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:40:09Z ramus joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:40:09Z samebchase joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:40:10Z yroeht joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:40:10Z j_king joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:40:11Z ahungry joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:40:12Z zxq9 joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:40:13Z whartung joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:40:14Z bhyde joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:40:14Z fmu joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:40:15Z peccu3 joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:40:16Z InvalidCo joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:40:16Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:40:24Z __main__ joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:40:24Z rvchangue joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:40:28Z les joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:40:28Z les quit (Changing host) 2014-06-11T20:40:28Z les joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:40:32Z zeitue: OK thanks everyone 2014-06-11T20:40:47Z stassats: LiamH: it wasn't revised, so that's not what it means 2014-06-11T20:41:02Z LiamH: I didn't think so. 2014-06-11T20:41:36Z lukego quit (Quit: lukego) 2014-06-11T20:42:09Z Shinmera quit (Quit: bbl) 2014-06-11T20:42:38Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:42:56Z orthecreedence: it means 2004 years until the NEXT revision will be considered 2014-06-11T20:43:02Z therik quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T20:45:26Z seangrove quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T20:45:39Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:46:18Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:46:25Z Krystof: possibly "reaffirmed" but that is a guess 2014-06-11T20:46:50Z pnpuff quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T20:50:01Z Krystof: gah! Which set of idiots put the arguments to logbitp that way round? 2014-06-11T20:50:20Z ThomasH: Krystof: Check the mailing list. 2014-06-11T20:51:26Z stassats: Krystof: i hear your pain 2014-06-11T20:52:22Z kami joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:53:10Z kami: Good evening 2014-06-11T20:53:34Z jayson1 joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:53:53Z net4all left #lisp 2014-06-11T20:54:53Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-11T20:55:12Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-11T20:55:17Z stassats: and there were talks of removing multiple values 2014-06-11T20:56:39Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:56:44Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-06-11T20:58:07Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-11T20:58:41Z ecraven joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:01:08Z amuul quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T21:06:02Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-11T21:06:56Z froggey joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:10:15Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:10:53Z Lebbe quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2014-06-11T21:10:54Z Lebbe joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:11:13Z kami: I am trying to port swclos (http://www-kasm.nii.ac.jp/~koide/SWCLOS2-en.htm) to sbcl 2014-06-11T21:11:48Z heddwch: 404 2014-06-11T21:12:10Z kami: and hit a problem with %update-class being called recursively called 2014-06-11T21:12:14Z jcowan joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:12:21Z stassats: heddwch: too much parentheses 2014-06-11T21:12:28Z qiemem quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-06-11T21:12:44Z kami: I tried to extract a small portion of the defclasses 2014-06-11T21:12:54Z kami: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142861 2014-06-11T21:12:56Z heddwch: stassats: Ah heh, probably should've taken enough time to notice them 2014-06-11T21:13:07Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T21:13:12Z kami: heddwch: M-x ffap is your friend 2014-06-11T21:13:38Z heddwch: kami: =p Space bar is yours 2014-06-11T21:14:04Z stassats: kami: that's too much code for a question 2014-06-11T21:14:05Z kami: heddwch: will try to use it, next time :) 2014-06-11T21:14:44Z Rosario quit 2014-06-11T21:14:45Z heddwch: kami: :) 2014-06-11T21:15:11Z ggole quit 2014-06-11T21:15:16Z jayson1: Hey, i want to write im trying to write function which returns a generator. 2014-06-11T21:15:20Z stassats: why are there calls to reinitialize-instance ? 2014-06-11T21:16:00Z stassats: and pipes make the code unreadable 2014-06-11T21:16:07Z kami: stassats: yes, I know. My main question is whether I've hit a bug in sb-pcl or whether this code works because of non-standard behaviour in acl 2014-06-11T21:16:30Z stassats: can you have a minimal independent test case? 2014-06-11T21:16:42Z kami: stassats: reinitialize-instance's came in while I tried to find out more about the problem 2014-06-11T21:17:33Z kami: stassats: I will try 2014-06-11T21:18:02Z stassats: and you are redefining metaclasses, that's undefined 2014-06-11T21:18:27Z Intensity quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T21:18:27Z Oddity quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T21:18:27Z fikusz_ quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T21:18:27Z gabot quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T21:18:27Z White_Flame quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-11T21:18:40Z jayson1: Hello! im trying to write function which returns a generator. here is what i have: http://paste.lisp.org/+328B the problem is that i can't make new list appear as a new function variable, maybe someone can take a look ? I think the problem lies somewhere in the end of second defun. 2014-06-11T21:18:56Z gabot joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:19:13Z fikusz_ joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:19:19Z juiko joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:19:39Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:19:57Z the8thbit joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:20:02Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:21:11Z juiko quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T21:21:31Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T21:21:32Z juiko joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:21:40Z kami: stassats: as I said, I'm trying to port a piece of code from acl to sbcl, it's not my code. By "that's undefined", you mean: this cannot be done in sbcl at all? 2014-06-11T21:22:40Z pjb: jayson1: in make_new_list, you return the last element. Why are you collecting all those elements then? 2014-06-11T21:22:58Z stassats: kami: i'm not sure what you're trying to do 2014-06-11T21:23:19Z kami: stassats: that's the reason I left the comments of the original author in place. 2014-06-11T21:23:56Z juiko quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T21:24:17Z juiko joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:24:26Z pjb: jayson1: in rearrange-list, you have a free variable named A. 2014-06-11T21:24:27Z kami: He mimicks the meta-circularity of RDF(S) and OWL with clos. 2014-06-11T21:24:58Z Bike: oh is this the same thing as before 2014-06-11T21:25:08Z stassats: kami: your pasted doesn't state where the problem is 2014-06-11T21:25:10Z stassats: it's just some code 2014-06-11T21:25:44Z kami: Bike: yes 2014-06-11T21:25:53Z kami: stassats: I will annotate it with the backtrace 2014-06-11T21:26:11Z juiko quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T21:26:41Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-11T21:28:04Z Bike: the basic problem is om (defclass rdfsClass (rdf-node) () (:metaclass rdf-node)) (defclass |rdfs|:|Class| (rdf-node) () (:metaclass rdfsClass)) (defclass rdfsClass (|rdfs|:|Class|) () (:metaclass rdf-node)), you don't need the rest of the paste if you kill a few of the classnames 2014-06-11T21:28:50Z Bike: it seems to be some hacky way of doing something like the standard classes around standard-class 2014-06-11T21:29:23Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:30:32Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:30:32Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T21:30:51Z jchochli_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T21:31:38Z juiko joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:32:17Z kami: Bike: let me check that in acl and sbcl 2014-06-11T21:32:39Z Bike: you can just (defclass rdf-node (standard-class) ()) 2014-06-11T21:33:28Z eni_ joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:33:33Z Intensity joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:33:33Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T21:33:41Z Hydan_ quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-11T21:33:55Z stassats: mop is quite confusing with terms "metaobject" "metaobject class" and "class metaobject" 2014-06-11T21:33:56Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for is quite confusing with terms "metaobject" "metaobject class" and "class metaobject". 2014-06-11T21:34:14Z Bike: yeah, it's annoying how it even mentions metaobject being a bad term early in the book, and then uses it anyway 2014-06-11T21:34:23Z juiko` joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:34:33Z stassats: specbot: did that look like a query to you? 2014-06-11T21:34:44Z Praise- is now known as Praise 2014-06-11T21:36:28Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:36:30Z juiko quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-11T21:36:39Z tessier joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:36:39Z tessier quit (Changing host) 2014-06-11T21:36:39Z tessier joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:37:08Z juiko`` joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:37:08Z juiko`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T21:38:54Z Lebbe quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2014-06-11T21:38:54Z juiko` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-11T21:40:13Z Xach: minion, chant 2014-06-11T21:40:13Z minion: MORE ABOUT THE PROBLEM 2014-06-11T21:40:26Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T21:40:33Z klltkr joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:40:42Z Fare joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:40:48Z drmeist__: If I am compiling my code in one shell and I switch git branches in another - that's a bad idea right? 2014-06-11T21:41:11Z Lebbe joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:41:12Z drmeist__ is now known as drmeister_ 2014-06-11T21:41:16Z stassats: yes 2014-06-11T21:41:25Z drmeister_ makes a mental note. 2014-06-11T21:42:00Z juiko``` joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:42:14Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:44:56Z stassats: mop is a cleaning tool 2014-06-11T21:45:01Z stassats: mop u-i-f-r-c 2014-06-11T21:45:02Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for u-i-f-r-c. 2014-06-11T21:45:09Z stassats: that's better 2014-06-11T21:45:38Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T21:45:47Z kami: Bike: I don't end up in slime's sldb buffer with the backtrace any more, just "Control stack guard page temporarily diabled: proceed with caution". Do I have to do something special? 2014-06-11T21:45:57Z MarkT- joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:46:23Z MarkT- left #lisp 2014-06-11T21:46:53Z Bike: i get both 2014-06-11T21:47:12Z stassats: so, i have no idea what a metaobject is anymore, after trying to find a definition, i just became more confused 2014-06-11T21:47:14Z Bike: well, i mean, i get sldb with the control stack warning 2014-06-11T21:47:30Z Bike: error? exhaustion is probably error. 2014-06-11T21:47:51Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-11T21:48:01Z rune1 quit (Quit: rune1) 2014-06-11T21:48:02Z Bike: and it's still doing that loop with sb-pcl::%update-lisp-class-layout 2014-06-11T21:48:11Z kami: Bike: do you enter the forms in the repl? 2014-06-11T21:48:16Z Bike: yeah 2014-06-11T21:48:35Z kami: I was using C-c C-c. 2014-06-11T21:48:41Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T21:49:49Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:49:49Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-11T21:51:40Z jasom: stassats: it's slightly ambiguous as a general term; do you mean with CLOS specifically or any object system in general? 2014-06-11T21:51:54Z stassats: with MOP 2014-06-11T21:52:05Z Longlius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T21:52:27Z ch077179 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-11T21:53:33Z Longlius joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:53:51Z Code_Man` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-06-11T21:54:20Z kami: OK. This is the simplified version: http://paste.lisp.org/+328D/1 followed by the backtrace 2014-06-11T21:54:26Z mac_ified quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T21:54:35Z jasom: stassats: a metaobject is any object that "manipulates, creates, describes, or implements other objects" (taken from wikipedia). In MOP, that means any object that is one of: class slot-definition generic-function method and method-combination 2014-06-11T21:55:47Z jasom: It should be at least somewhat clear how all of those fit the definition 2014-06-11T21:56:02Z stassats: so, what is a metaclass then? 2014-06-11T21:56:10Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:56:35Z stassats: well, i don't care, i'm using MOP for some time and never bothered with those things 2014-06-11T21:56:44Z jasom: stassats: a metaclass is a class whose instances are classes 2014-06-11T21:56:46Z kami: Forgot to mention: I'm on sbcl 1.2.0 2014-06-11T21:57:42Z jasom: so e.g. standard-object is a metaclass 2014-06-11T21:58:02Z kami: And it works in ACL 9.0 Express 2014-06-11T21:58:03Z stassats: is it? 2014-06-11T21:58:07Z jasom: sorry standard-class 2014-06-11T21:58:12Z drmeister_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T21:58:34Z stassats: ok, i don't have a problem with metaclass then, just with metaobject, and metaobject class, and class metaobject 2014-06-11T21:59:47Z stassats: o, rdf-node is both a metaclass and a superclass? doesn't seem quite right 2014-06-11T21:59:53Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2014-06-11T21:59:57Z Bike quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-11T22:00:38Z jasom: a class metaobject is just a class (it's redundant since all classes are metaobjects) a metaobject class is a class of something that is a metaobject (which speficially for MOP means a subclass of one of the classes I listed; AMOP defines it as a "subclass of exactly one of these classes") 2014-06-11T22:01:05Z kami: stassats: this is the intention of the author and it works in ACL and LispWorks 2014-06-11T22:01:21Z stassats: jasom: so, the term metaobject doesn't really mean much, does it? 2014-06-11T22:01:27Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-11T22:01:57Z jasom: stassats: in MOP it specifically means it is an instance of one of : class, slot-definition, generic-function, method and method-combination 2014-06-11T22:02:17Z jasom: stassats: it's an object that you can manipulate to change the behavior of other objects 2014-06-11T22:02:38Z jasom: but it is somewhat of a catchall (kind of like adverb) 2014-06-11T22:02:50Z stassats: so, not useful in a conversation 2014-06-11T22:04:09Z jasom: it depends on what you're talking about. If you say X is a metaobject then you do know something about it. Overusing the features of MOP can cause problems similar to overusing macros, so calling out that something is a metaobject is useful. 2014-06-11T22:04:46Z eni_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T22:05:25Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-11T22:07:01Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-11T22:10:36Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2014-06-11T22:11:08Z seangrove quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T22:11:21Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-11T22:11:41Z stassats: well, changing classes of metaclass is undefined in MOP 2014-06-11T22:12:13Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-11T22:12:16Z Tristam joined #lisp 2014-06-11T22:12:48Z jasom: Creating a new metaobject class usually means you're changing default object behavior 2014-06-11T22:14:49Z fortitude quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-11T22:15:47Z Tristam quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-06-11T22:17:06Z vinleod quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-11T22:17:36Z jasom: (it means you're inheriting from one of class, slot-definition, generic-function, method and method-combination) 2014-06-11T22:18:50Z seangrove quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T22:19:02Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-11T22:19:14Z jasom: Similarly anytime you interact directly with a metaobject (rather than just calling make-instance or defclass or whatever), you're hooking into the CLOS internals, so talking about the fact that you're doing it is useful 2014-06-11T22:20:56Z Tristam joined #lisp 2014-06-11T22:24:12Z qiemem joined #lisp 2014-06-11T22:24:12Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2014-06-11T22:24:27Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2014-06-11T22:25:43Z Fare: What would be useful to demonstrate in a 25 minute talk about scripting in Lisp? 2014-06-11T22:25:43Z minion: Fare, memo from jasom: cl-launch is generating really slow to startup executables compared to manually running (adsf:make-build ...) any idea what's going on? 2014-06-11T22:26:09Z Fare: jasom: how are you generating your executables? 2014-06-11T22:26:26Z kami: Bike: would you please do me a favor and try http://paste.lisp.org/+328D/3 ? I added a validate-superclass before redefining. 2014-06-11T22:26:30Z Fare: are you using option -d ? 2014-06-11T22:27:11Z vkeg quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-11T22:27:17Z Fare: if you don't use option --dump it's not dumping an image, and so scanning your source registry and loading fasls every time; either/both this scanning and loading can be slow. 2014-06-11T22:27:24Z Bike: in a moment 2014-06-11T22:27:29Z kami: Bike: thanks 2014-06-11T22:27:57Z Bike: no errors 2014-06-11T22:28:09Z Fare: on the other hand, if you use --dump it's going to take much more space on disk, and not be automatically updated when you update your code and/or its libraries. 2014-06-11T22:28:17Z kami: Bike: thank you so much! 2014-06-11T22:28:18Z jayson1 quit 2014-06-11T22:28:26Z Lefeni joined #lisp 2014-06-11T22:28:35Z kami: Now I'll quickly go to bed before the next error strikes! 2014-06-11T22:28:40Z kami: Good night. 2014-06-11T22:28:44Z klltkr joined #lisp 2014-06-11T22:28:46Z Fare: I suppose that's one thing to demonstrate 2014-06-11T22:29:44Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-06-11T22:31:29Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-11T22:33:37Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-11T22:33:37Z drmeiste_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-11T22:34:44Z Oddity joined #lisp 2014-06-11T22:34:54Z nha joined #lisp 2014-06-11T22:35:01Z Sgeo joined #lisp 2014-06-11T22:35:08Z Fare: jasom: ping 2014-06-11T22:37:31Z jasom: Fare: pong 2014-06-11T22:38:11Z jasom: Fare: cl-launch -l $1 '(quit)' -o $3 --dump '!' >&2 2014-06-11T22:38:18Z jasom: $1 is the lisp implementation $3 is the output file 2014-06-11T22:38:56Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-06-11T22:39:25Z jasom: I compared to (asdf:make-build :some-system :type :program :epilogue-code '(quit)) 2014-06-11T22:39:50Z jasom: the cl-launch version took ~4x longer to run 2014-06-11T22:40:02Z Oberon4278 quit 2014-06-11T22:40:22Z Fare: 4x ??? 2014-06-11T22:40:33Z Fare: that doesn't sound right at all 2014-06-11T22:40:51Z stassats: do i have to install cl-launch now? 2014-06-11T22:40:58Z Fare: what for? 2014-06-11T22:41:08Z jasom: closer to 3.5x now that I look at the numbers... 2014-06-11T22:41:16Z stassats: to see why it's slower 2014-06-11T22:41:28Z Fare: jasom: are you indeed using the same implementation with the same optimization setting? 2014-06-11T22:41:38Z sunwukong quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T22:41:38Z jasom: Fare: yes 2014-06-11T22:41:39Z Fare: is it a startup pause or a program slow down? 2014-06-11T22:41:48Z jasom: Fare: the program is '(quit) 2014-06-11T22:41:51Z jasom: so I assume startup pause 2014-06-11T22:42:42Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-11T22:43:38Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T22:44:19Z jasom: Fare: http://paste.lisp.org/+328E <-- compare the results of that to the cl-launch script I wrote (replace :fccg with the name of any small system; I originally copy-pasted this from a build script for one of my programs) 2014-06-11T22:44:32Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-11T22:44:41Z MjrTom quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-11T22:44:56Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-11T22:45:15Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2014-06-11T22:46:17Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 2014-06-11T22:46:24Z hugod|away joined #lisp 2014-06-11T22:46:24Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-11T22:46:26Z Fare: jasom: using SBCL? 2014-06-11T22:46:31Z jasom: Fare: ecl 2014-06-11T22:46:48Z Fare: oh, ecl. 2014-06-11T22:46:51Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-11T22:47:11Z hugod|away is now known as hugoduncan` 2014-06-11T22:47:30Z jasom: Fare: all other lisps I tried generated similar startup times to what I expect from my manual build scripts (replacing 5 different scripts with a single one is a *huge* win so I was excited to see cl-launch supported standalone binaries now) 2014-06-11T22:47:38Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T22:48:25Z Fare: interestingly, cl-launch on ecl calls program-op... 2014-06-11T22:48:31Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-11T22:48:33Z jasom: huh 2014-06-11T22:48:59Z Fare: and so should make-build 2014-06-11T22:49:12Z jasom: Fare: I thought make-build was part of ECL? 2014-06-11T22:49:38Z jasom: Fare: there's a comment that says "attempt at compiling directly with ECL's make-build" but I don't see make-build anywhere in the source 2014-06-11T22:49:46Z Fare: jasom: it's defined in asdf/bundle.lisp 2014-06-11T22:49:52Z jasom: ah 2014-06-11T22:50:00Z seangrove quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T22:50:13Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-11T22:51:25Z Fare: you could try to trace some functions in ASDF, most notably initialize-source-registry, to see if somehow they are erroneously called in the cl-launch variant. 2014-06-11T22:52:09Z stassats: cl-launch loads asdf on start up? 2014-06-11T22:52:29Z Fare: I was thinking of having cl-launch use the same code as currently used for ECL on all implementations, to ensure dependencies when multiple --file / --load files are provided. 2014-06-11T22:52:42Z Fare: stassats, it shouldn't when resuming from a dumped image. 2014-06-11T22:52:53Z Fare: but I might have left a bug in the ECL implementation 2014-06-11T22:53:06Z hodwik joined #lisp 2014-06-11T22:53:08Z stassats: it does try to load it 2014-06-11T22:53:28Z stassats: (and ecl can't dump images) 2014-06-11T22:53:35Z jasom: L961compute_source_registry 2014-06-11T22:54:04Z jasom: that was on the stack when I randomly sampled it during initialization 2014-06-11T22:54:17Z Fare: well "dump image", as in use asdf:program-op 2014-06-11T22:54:46Z doomlord_1 quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-11T22:54:54Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T22:54:56Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2014-06-11T22:54:58Z Fare: jasom: yeah, it looks like cl-launch is scanning your source-registry 2014-06-11T22:55:44Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-11T22:55:44Z Fare: OK, I think I understand. 2014-06-11T22:55:53Z jasom: That, combined with the heavy use of clos in asdf is probably the slowdown 2014-06-11T22:56:12Z Fare: For compatibility with programs that might use its internals, cl-launch includes itself in the things that are linked into the image 2014-06-11T22:56:19Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T22:56:29Z Fare: on non-ECL platforms, that's no problem: it's already present, won't be run again 2014-06-11T22:56:45Z jasom: right 2014-06-11T22:57:02Z Fare: on ECL, this is a problem: its code will be evaluated, which will cause asdf to be pulled in and updated, scanning the source-registry 2014-06-11T22:57:07Z stassats: it executes the code subtitled "The code below exemplifies how to try super-hard to load ASDF 3 from standard locations," 2014-06-11T22:57:13Z Fare: yup 2014-06-11T22:57:21Z Fare: semantically, it's a nop 2014-06-11T22:57:31Z Fare: but for startup performance on ecl, it's very bad. 2014-06-11T22:58:04Z Fare: so I need to tweak it so it skips that step when linking on ECL. 2014-06-11T22:58:44Z jasom: Thanks, Fare. All-in-all cl-launch does all that I need and more, and it's dead-easy to use 2014-06-11T22:58:48Z replcated` joined #lisp 2014-06-11T22:59:08Z jasom: this is the first problem I've run into with it at all, and things still actually work, just slowly 2014-06-11T22:59:13Z replcated joined #lisp 2014-06-11T22:59:13Z stassats: do you need asdf in ECL to get updated? i can update it 2014-06-11T22:59:27Z stassats: (since i don't use ECL, i can freely make other people suffer) 2014-06-11T22:59:55Z hodwik quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T23:00:03Z replcated` left #lisp 2014-06-11T23:00:04Z replcated quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-11T23:00:07Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T23:01:31Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-11T23:01:38Z jonh joined #lisp 2014-06-11T23:02:17Z jasom: how hard would it be to replace the zlip in the sbcl core compression with something faster? 2014-06-11T23:02:35Z jasom: e.g. lz4 which hits 2GB/s decompress on modern hardware 2014-06-11T23:03:02Z stassats: how is its compression? 2014-06-11T23:03:28Z jasom: about 30% lower ratio than zlib 2014-06-11T23:03:29Z CatMtKing quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-11T23:03:34Z Fare: stassats, yes, ECL has a quite old 2.33.x 2014-06-11T23:03:56Z Fare: 3.1.2 fixes a lot of bugs and has ECL-specific improvements. 2014-06-11T23:04:24Z jxv joined #lisp 2014-06-11T23:04:47Z stassats: ok, if i'll manage to get it running, then i'll update it 2014-06-11T23:05:14Z Fare: updating SBCL would be nice, too: it has 3.0.2 which is over 11 months old. 2014-06-11T23:05:15Z stassats: well, it's already running, but not from the usual ecl location 2014-06-11T23:05:18Z nha quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-11T23:05:50Z Fare: 3.1.2 is super-tested. CCL upgraded over a month ago. 2014-06-11T23:06:07Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-11T23:06:10Z stassats: SBCL manages to produce its own bugs quite well 2014-06-11T23:06:16Z jasom: stassats: actually loking more closely lz4 HC trades off compression time to get ratios of about like zlib with similar decompression speeds to the standard lz4. That might make a lot of sense 2014-06-11T23:06:17Z Fare: see https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1318046 2014-06-11T23:06:32Z nialo joined #lisp 2014-06-11T23:06:37Z jasom: stassats: https://code.google.com/p/lz4/ has benchmarks on the silesia corpus 2014-06-11T23:06:44Z JuanitoJons quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2014-06-11T23:07:07Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T23:08:38Z stassats: well, i haven't heard anybody complaining that ASDF in SBCL is too old for something 2014-06-11T23:08:59Z stassats: and i would hold on at least until the next release, since i would prefer to get it early in the release cycle to get more testing 2014-06-11T23:10:20Z hodwik joined #lisp 2014-06-11T23:10:40Z Fare: well, 3.1 has many significant improvements that I'd rather get provided by the implementation's asdf. 2014-06-11T23:11:39Z stassats: what's with asdf-ecl.lisp? 2014-06-11T23:12:02Z rszeno joined #lisp 2014-06-11T23:12:38Z Fare: it's been superseded by asdf/bundle.lisp now part of asdf.lisp 2014-06-11T23:12:46Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-06-11T23:12:46Z stassats: ok, it's a historical artifact left for posterity 2014-06-11T23:12:52Z Fare: asdf-ecl.lisp is obsolete and shouldn't be used anymore. 2014-06-11T23:13:00Z Fare: I would remove it, because git remembers. 2014-06-11T23:13:14Z stassats: that's what i'm planning to do 2014-06-11T23:14:03Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-06-11T23:14:16Z orthecreedence: does anyone know why ECL/cffi-grovel recompile static-vectors every time i load a system with it included? 2014-06-11T23:14:22Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-11T23:14:42Z stassats: too old asdf 2014-06-11T23:15:10Z Fare: ? 2014-06-11T23:15:32Z orthecreedence: i seem to remember manually using the latest asdf though 2014-06-11T23:15:36Z orthecreedence: let me try again 2014-06-11T23:16:04Z stassats: too old/bad static-vectors then 2014-06-11T23:16:23Z orthecreedence: ok 2014-06-11T23:17:18Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T23:17:24Z yrk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T23:20:11Z stassats: Fare: ok, updated to 3.1.2 2014-06-11T23:20:26Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-11T23:21:08Z Fare: stassats, thanks a lot! 2014-06-11T23:21:16Z stassats: (on ECL, not SBCL) 2014-06-11T23:21:20Z Fare: ok 2014-06-11T23:21:26Z Fare: ECL needed it more than SBCL 2014-06-11T23:21:36Z stassats: ECL needs a release 2014-06-11T23:21:42Z stassats: but i don't know who can make it 2014-06-11T23:21:53Z Bike quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-11T23:22:01Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-11T23:22:02Z Fare: there was serious breakage in bundle.lisp that got fixed with 3.1 2014-06-11T23:22:37Z Fare: who's the new maintainer for ecl ? 2014-06-11T23:22:48Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-11T23:22:55Z stassats: no one, really 2014-06-11T23:23:55Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2014-06-11T23:24:01Z wheelsucker: #ipv6 2014-06-11T23:25:25Z stassats: i somehow ended up with commit access and fixed a couple of bugs, but nothing beyond that 2014-06-11T23:26:10Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-11T23:26:11Z Fare: I'm not sure the ASDF README is very useful to import into ECL. I would do away with it. 2014-06-11T23:26:50Z Fare: isn't Philip Marek somehow the "most maintainer-like" person? 2014-06-11T23:27:03Z stassats: i'll leave that to the mythical asdf maintainer 2014-06-11T23:27:10Z stassats: Fare: maybe 2014-06-11T23:27:26Z stassats: that'd be flip214_ 2014-06-11T23:27:55Z ltbarcly_ joined #lisp 2014-06-11T23:28:11Z Fare: I'm not the asdf maintainer anymore. In some ways it's liberating. In some ways it's frustrating. All in all, it's letting me find new things to do. 2014-06-11T23:28:40Z ASau quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-11T23:29:10Z ltbarcly quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-11T23:29:11Z stassats: i like somebody else to be a maintainer, and i'm just a contributor 2014-06-11T23:29:26Z stassats: making releases and other administrative tasks are just so boring 2014-06-11T23:29:41Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-06-11T23:30:14Z Fare: sometimes it's good to be able to decide what gets in or out, and not have lengthy discussions about it 2014-06-11T23:30:24Z orthecreedence: shit, now i'm getting "The input line is too long." in windows/ECL/grovel 2014-06-11T23:30:46Z stassats: is it too long? 2014-06-11T23:30:47Z Fare: jasom: I'll try to whip out something while in the subway. 2014-06-11T23:30:51Z Fare: ttyl 2014-06-11T23:31:09Z orthecreedence: must be =] 2014-06-11T23:31:17Z orthecreedence: it'sover 256 characters or something stupid 2014-06-11T23:32:08Z matko joined #lisp 2014-06-11T23:32:09Z orthecreedence: yea 484 characters 2014-06-11T23:32:38Z ltbarcly_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T23:33:06Z stassats: what kind of line is that? a command line? 2014-06-11T23:33:45Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-11T23:34:47Z orthecreedence: yeah it's a gcc.exe invocation (MinGW) 2014-06-11T23:35:08Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-11T23:35:12Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-06-11T23:35:22Z orthecreedence: i opened a PR on cffi's github and they asked me to check if it was ECL being dumb, but i never followed up 2014-06-11T23:37:04Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: lifeform experiment destroyed because all hope lost) 2014-06-11T23:39:11Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T23:40:38Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2014-06-11T23:40:45Z jasom: Fare: amen to the "not have lengthy discussions" it's the only nice thing about being a maintainer 2014-06-11T23:41:21Z stassats: isn't that the opposite? 2014-06-11T23:41:52Z chu joined #lisp 2014-06-11T23:42:05Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-11T23:42:17Z slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 2014-06-11T23:42:21Z jasom: or rather, the discussions are no longer than you want them to be. At any point you can say "I'm doing it this way, and if you don't like it, fork it" 2014-06-11T23:46:04Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-06-11T23:46:30Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2014-06-11T23:46:30Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-06-11T23:47:26Z tinyblak quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-11T23:48:14Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-11T23:50:52Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-11T23:52:44Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-11T23:56:19Z hodwik quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-11T23:57:15Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-11T23:58:32Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-11T23:59:29Z vlnx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-12T00:00:00Z vlnx joined #lisp 2014-06-12T00:00:08Z Krystof quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-12T00:01:08Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T00:01:40Z zz_karupa is now known as karupa 2014-06-12T00:03:14Z nialo_v joined #lisp 2014-06-12T00:04:29Z nialo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 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ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-12T01:52:06Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-12T01:52:55Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-12T01:54:59Z hugoduncan` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T01:55:26Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-12T01:57:28Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-12T02:01:16Z MoALTz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-12T02:01:47Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2014-06-12T02:03:14Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-12T02:03:42Z harish_ joined #lisp 2014-06-12T02:03:55Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-12T02:05:55Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-06-12T02:09:50Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-12T02:12:11Z Trenif joined #lisp 2014-06-12T02:14:07Z drmeiste_: I came up with a work around for the lack of a way to forward declare nested classes: class A { class B; }; - Just define class AB : public A::B {}; and expose that to Common Lisp. It's a top level class that can be forward declared. 2014-06-12T02:15:12Z Lefeni quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-12T02:15:19Z trumae joined #lisp 2014-06-12T02:17:27Z drmeiste_: It came to me while I was composing the email asking the author of that code in clang to pull the classes apart. 2014-06-12T02:17:35Z zRecursive: clhs make-random-state 2014-06-12T02:17:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_rnd.htm 2014-06-12T02:19:32Z drmeiste_: Hmm, I spoke a leeeeetle too soon. It doesn't play well with the CL system. 2014-06-12T02:20:08Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T02:22:39Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-06-12T02:28:27Z nialo_v quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-12T02:28:36Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-12T02:30:21Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T02:30:34Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2014-06-12T02:31:32Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2014-06-12T02:32:46Z lyanchih quit (Quit: lyanchih) 2014-06-12T02:35:27Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-12T02:35:38Z DataLinkDroid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-12T02:37:17Z lyanchih joined #lisp 2014-06-12T02:37:26Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-12T02:46:15Z sz0 joined #lisp 2014-06-12T02:46:26Z sz0 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-12T02:48:24Z sz0 joined #lisp 2014-06-12T02:48:36Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-06-12T02:48:59Z MjrTom quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-12T02:49:07Z Tenkujin joined #lisp 2014-06-12T02:49:18Z kirin` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T02:51:10Z kanru joined #lisp 2014-06-12T02:53:15Z Tenkujin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-12T02:54:43Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T02:56:40Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2014-06-12T02:57:44Z Denommus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-12T02:57:54Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-12T02:57:54Z Denommus quit (Changing host) 2014-06-12T02:57:54Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-12T03:01:45Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-06-12T03:09:00Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-12T03:10:58Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2014-06-12T03:13:04Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-12T03:13:18Z tinyblak quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T03:13:23Z kirin` joined #lisp 2014-06-12T03:14:05Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-12T03:14:20Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-12T03:16:27Z xach quit (Input/output error) 2014-06-12T03:16:46Z aoh joined #lisp 2014-06-12T03:17:07Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2014-06-12T03:20:05Z the8thbit quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T03:20:51Z JuniorRoy1 joined #lisp 2014-06-12T03:21:49Z JuniorRoy quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-12T03:26:49Z tinyblak_ joined #lisp 2014-06-12T03:29:54Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-12T03:30:15Z tinyblak_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T03:30:51Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-12T03:35:02Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2014-06-12T03:35:45Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-12T03:35:58Z doomlord_ joined #lisp 2014-06-12T03:37:38Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T03:50:32Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-06-12T03:53:07Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T03:55:39Z dboswell` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T03:57:17Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-12T03:57:44Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-12T03:58:05Z MjrTom quit (Quit: Planet Earth is blue, and there's nothing I can do) 2014-06-12T04:03:02Z lyanchih quit (Quit: lyanchih) 2014-06-12T04:03:53Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-12T04:10:35Z chu joined #lisp 2014-06-12T04:14:16Z phax left #lisp 2014-06-12T04:20:28Z BlastHardcheese joined #lisp 2014-06-12T04:20:50Z sheilong quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-12T04:21:37Z Eyes quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-12T04:21:47Z SuinDraw joined #lisp 2014-06-12T04:22:28Z doomlord_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-12T04:22:29Z SuinDraw is now known as Eyes 2014-06-12T04:25:47Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-12T04:26:48Z amuul joined #lisp 2014-06-12T04:27:16Z optikalmouse quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-12T04:28:07Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-12T04:29:23Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Exit IRC/Hibernate) 2014-06-12T04:33:03Z ggole joined #lisp 2014-06-12T04:33:14Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-12T04:33:36Z Denommus quit (Quit: Bye) 2014-06-12T04:33:54Z chu joined #lisp 2014-06-12T04:35:29Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-12T04:36:34Z foreignFunction joined #lisp 2014-06-12T04:40:08Z drmeiste_: It just needed a little bit of polish and it works fine. If you ever need to forward define a nested class: class Foo; class FooBar; ...do stuff with Foo and FooBar...; class Foo { class Bar {};}; class FooBar : public Foo::Bar {...}; There's a few public/private issues to deal with but it works. 2014-06-12T04:44:09Z jiteboxr quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-12T04:50:38Z Hydan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T04:51:16Z wchun joined #lisp 2014-06-12T04:51:30Z jrm quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-12T04:51:35Z wchun quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T04:51:39Z sheilong joined #lisp 2014-06-12T04:51:53Z wchun joined #lisp 2014-06-12T04:52:29Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-06-12T04:53:24Z zeitue quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-12T04:54:44Z jrm joined #lisp 2014-06-12T04:57:38Z chu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T05:00:24Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-06-12T05:01:21Z zRecursive C++ is a monster 2014-06-12T05:02:14Z zRecursive C is a better choice to make OS, compiler,etc. 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#lisp 2014-06-12T09:00:41Z mdallastella joined #lisp 2014-06-12T09:01:04Z mdallastella is now known as Guest24079 2014-06-12T09:01:09Z FracV joined #lisp 2014-06-12T09:02:44Z Guest24079 is now known as mdallastella 2014-06-12T09:03:03Z aftershave joined #lisp 2014-06-12T09:03:30Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-12T09:04:36Z uf_ quit (Quit: uf_) 2014-06-12T09:04:38Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-12T09:04:38Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-06-12T09:07:51Z KDr2 joined #lisp 2014-06-12T09:12:27Z qiemem quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-06-12T09:14:19Z momo-rei` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T09:14:50Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-12T09:21:09Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T09:31:31Z H4ns: is it possible/advisable to specialize slot-unbound on a non-standard metaclass, hoping that the method would be called whenever an unbound slot of an instance of a class with that metaclass is read? 2014-06-12T09:32:38Z Guest22575: H4ns: that functionality is provided by STANDARD-OBJECT, right? 2014-06-12T09:32:58Z Guest22575: so if the "non-standard" metaclass does not inherit from it, you do not get that 2014-06-12T09:33:14Z Guest22575: oh, is it STANDARD-CLASS? 2014-06-12T09:33:31Z H4ns: Guest22575: my metaclass is a subclass of standard-class. 2014-06-12T09:33:38Z Guest22575: one day I'll fix this nickserv authentication 2014-06-12T09:34:50Z Guest22575: H4ns: does it not work without any special effort then? 2014-06-12T09:34:51Z ehaliewicz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-12T09:35:08Z H4ns: Guest22575: no, but let me try again 2014-06-12T09:40:39Z H4ns: Guest22575: so you're saying that a method like (defmethod slot-unbound ((class my-meta-class) instance slot-name) (setf (slot-value instance slot-name) 'my-default-value)) should work? 2014-06-12T09:41:39Z H4ns: ah. it seems like my problem is unrelated. sorry for the noise. i was working with an uninitialized instance 2014-06-12T09:41:50Z Guest22575: H4ns: i'm not claiming anything, I was just wondering. I'm sorry i'm too detached from Lisp world right now, just tried to distract myself from my work 2014-06-12T09:42:06Z Guest22575: H4ns: i'm glad i could help :) 2014-06-12T09:42:13Z H4ns: Guest22575: thanks! :) 2014-06-12T09:46:01Z nug700 quit (Quit: bye) 2014-06-12T09:46:57Z wz1000 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T09:47:03Z harish_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T09:47:56Z antoszka: Guest22575: if you're using irssi you'll be better off with this: http://freenode.net/sasl/sasl-irssi.shtml 2014-06-12T09:48:19Z antoszka: Guest22575: rather than manual nickserv fiddling around with 2014-06-12T09:49:12Z Guest22575: antoszka: i'm using ZNC 2014-06-12T09:49:20Z Guest22575: recently started, that is 2014-06-12T09:52:10Z antoszka: Hm. Suppose you can possibly integrate that with ZNC as well, wouldn't know how though. 2014-06-12T09:53:44Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-12T09:54:27Z Guest22575: antoszka: there's a plugin, and it's supposed to work, except it quite does not very well so far. i'll figure it out, don't worry. 2014-06-12T09:54:50Z antoszka: :) 2014-06-12T09:56:24Z KCL_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-12T09:56:39Z foreignFunction quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T09:59:44Z foreignFunction joined #lisp 2014-06-12T10:01:43Z karupa is now known as zz_karupa 2014-06-12T10:02:13Z hugoduncan quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-12T10:02:29Z hugod|away joined #lisp 2014-06-12T10:03:12Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-12T10:03:12Z Rosario quit (Changing host) 2014-06-12T10:03:12Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-12T10:03:24Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-12T10:04:08Z hugod|away is now known as hugoduncan 2014-06-12T10:10:43Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T10:18:09Z 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this Crane thing looks very nice. 2014-06-12T11:16:16Z tali713 joined #lisp 2014-06-12T11:16:40Z Guest22575: i tried using it, but could not immediately figure out how to use an existing database (without all the migration stuff) 2014-06-12T11:17:03Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-12T11:17:20Z hitecnologys: How did it feel besides the fact that you could not use your existing databases? 2014-06-12T11:18:36Z Guest22575: the database setup function had a different arglist than documentation stated 2014-06-12T11:18:37Z aftershave joined #lisp 2014-06-12T11:19:00Z Guest22575: and once i successfully connected, i discovered it automatically adds ID column 2014-06-12T11:19:09Z Guest22575: ok, i wanted to read data, only 2014-06-12T11:19:19Z Guest22575: and then i could not, because it tried to migrate stuff 2014-06-12T11:19:51Z hitecnologys: Sounds painful. 2014-06-12T11:20:12Z Guest22575: and checking source revealed it's not what is supported 2014-06-12T11:20:36Z jusss quit (Remote host closed 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cauld be composable 2014-06-12T12:04:32Z Guest22575: well, i do see, after a bit of thought 2014-06-12T12:04:32Z ustunozg_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T12:05:02Z Guest22575: usually one wants to compose the "where" clause 2014-06-12T12:05:13Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-12T12:05:17Z Guest22575: and WHERE appears to be a macro 2014-06-12T12:05:24Z KCL_ joined #lisp 2014-06-12T12:05:34Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-12T12:06:37Z Guest22575: tests use MAKE-CLAUSE, so that would be the functional part 2014-06-12T12:07:06Z Hydan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-12T12:08:20Z jiteboxr quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-12T12:09:22Z ustunozgur quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-12T12:10:26Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-12T12:10:40Z f-a quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-12T12:11:40Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-06-12T12:11:56Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-06-12T12:16:32Z Rosario quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T12:17:06Z 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joined #lisp 2014-06-12T12:52:50Z easye` quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-12T12:53:00Z easye joined #lisp 2014-06-12T12:53:13Z francogrex: (maphash (lambda (k v) (format t "~s ~a~^," k v)) a-table) can one using something like ~^, when iterating so that all commas appear but the one at the last iteration? 2014-06-12T12:53:35Z H4ns: francogrex: no. 2014-06-12T12:55:06Z flan3002 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-12T12:55:09Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-12T12:55:17Z ggole: It's easier to treat the first one specially IME 2014-06-12T12:55:29Z kslt1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-12T12:55:40Z ggole: Print the first element: print every other element with a ", " in front 2014-06-12T12:56:31Z francogrex: it's an idea, but seems impure... 2014-06-12T12:57:06Z francogrex: i could use loop over the hashtable instead of maphash 2014-06-12T12:59:31Z KDr2 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-12T12:59:43Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 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Krystof: an end of an era 2014-06-12T14:13:57Z Xach: I think you mean http://wigflip.com/saywhat/ 2014-06-12T14:14:15Z Xach: Indeed. It paid for a lot of lisp conference trips back in the day! 2014-06-12T14:14:50Z ThomasH`: Do they want the website or just the URL? 2014-06-12T14:15:23Z jxv joined #lisp 2014-06-12T14:15:38Z Xach: I think they are going to continue with it as-is, mostly, but I don't know. 2014-06-12T14:16:01Z ThomasH`: Cool, are they sticking with lisp? 2014-06-12T14:16:24Z eudoxia: they'll probably rewrite it just to spite us 2014-06-12T14:16:25Z Xach: I think so 2014-06-12T14:17:07Z therik joined #lisp 2014-06-12T14:17:13Z splittist: Xach: what will you call your seed fund? 2014-06-12T14:17:30Z Xach: something something ventures, i guess? 2014-06-12T14:17:45Z splittist: Or something combinator? 2014-06-12T14:18:00Z Krystof: hair replacement combination ventures 2014-06-12T14:19:12Z ThomasH`: Xach: That's awesome. My ideal scenario would be to write some software and sell it for a percentage of future sales. Passive. Income. The best kind. 2014-06-12T14:19:47Z ramkrsna quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-12T14:20:12Z splittist: ThomasH`: except for the ongoing auditing... 2014-06-12T14:20:47Z Xach: ThomasH`: I'm pretty happy about how it worked out. 2014-06-12T14:21:21Z Xach: >> mod_lisp2/1.2 / TBNL 0.9.8 (SBCL 1.0.6.37) at wigflip.com 2014-06-12T14:21:31Z jxv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-12T14:22:03Z ThomasH`: splittist: I'm in the US, already file a schedule C which is the most likely to be auditted. Knock on wood, haven't in 7 years. Mainly, because I follow the law. 2014-06-12T14:22:16Z drmeiste_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-12T14:22:22Z nyef joined #lisp 2014-06-12T14:22:30Z ThomasH`: Xach: Indeed, any software sale that generates income is good. 2014-06-12T14:22:34Z fortitude joined #lisp 2014-06-12T14:22:39Z splittist: ThomasH`: I mean you auditing the purchaser, to make sure you're getting your cut. But this is straying slightly off topic (: 2014-06-12T14:22:50Z oGMo: ThomasH`: java generates income 2014-06-12T14:23:06Z ThomasH`: splittist: Oh, yeah. Back to lisp! 2014-06-12T14:23:37Z ThomasH`: oGMo: Income is good, not necessarily the software that generated it. 2014-06-12T14:23:42Z oGMo: ThomasH`: ah 2014-06-12T14:23:45Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-06-12T14:23:48Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T14:23:51Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-12T14:23:54Z nipra quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-12T14:26:05Z flan30022 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-12T14:27:50Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2014-06-12T14:28:02Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-06-12T14:28:26Z f-a joined #lisp 2014-06-12T14:28:42Z kslt1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-12T14:28:50Z oleo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-12T14:30:22Z matko quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-12T14:30:43Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-06-12T14:30:46Z matko joined #lisp 2014-06-12T14:31:55Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T14:31:56Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-12T14:32:33Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-12T14:32:40Z w37 joined #lisp 2014-06-12T14:33:45Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-06-12T14:33:47Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-12T14:34:05Z dlowe: Xach: grats :) 2014-06-12T14:38:26Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-12T14:39:09Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-12T14:39:38Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-12T14:40:36Z ustunozg_ joined #lisp 2014-06-12T14:42:19Z matko quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T14:42:55Z stassats: who wants to buy paste.lisp? it doesn't even use araneida anymore! 2014-06-12T14:43:48Z Krystof: you've got the wrong market. Developers don't buy anything, unlike people who jump on meme bandwagons 2014-06-12T14:44:30Z stassats: minion: do you know memes? 2014-06-12T14:44:30Z minion: you'd have to tell me... my memory circuits are fried 2014-06-12T14:44:39Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T14:45:05Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-12T14:46:39Z Krystof: mind you, with a certain amount of chutzpah you could probably claim minion is sufficiently advanced to pass Turing tests, and hence you, too, have solved AI 2014-06-12T14:47:30Z ThomasH`: The article I read suggested only 1/3 of the people thought it was human. When did 33% become passing? 2014-06-12T14:47:39Z ThomasH`: s/suggested/reported/ 2014-06-12T14:47:40Z stassats: minion: version? 2014-06-12T14:47:40Z minion: This is the minion bot, running on a X86-64 (QEMU Virtual CPU version 1.0) and running under SBCL 1.1.6. 2014-06-12T14:47:54Z Xach: o minion 2014-06-12T14:49:20Z dlowe: interesting. sandboxed in a vm 2014-06-12T14:49:24Z Rosario quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T14:49:42Z stassats: that's on cl.net 2014-06-12T14:49:53Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-12T14:50:25Z TDog_ joined #lisp 2014-06-12T14:50:25Z Rosario quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-12T14:51:02Z drewc quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-12T14:51:12Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-12T14:52:18Z splittist: dlowe: that's what minion wants you to think 2014-06-12T14:52:23Z tinyblak quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-12T14:52:48Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-12T14:52:50Z TDog_ is now known as TDog 2014-06-12T14:54:59Z foreignFunction quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T14:55:23Z drmeiste_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T14:58:17Z rune1 quit (Quit: rune1) 2014-06-12T15:00:22Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T15:00:35Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-12T15:00:50Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-12T15:00:50Z drmeiste_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T15:00:56Z Rosario quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T15:01:06Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-12T15:01:22Z sroy_ quit (Quit: Quitte) 2014-06-12T15:01:23Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-12T15:02:18Z sroy joined #lisp 2014-06-12T15:04:38Z Krystof: ThomasH`: the media reports have been fantastically uncritical. And I bet Warwick University is hopping mad 2014-06-12T15:04:43Z c3w joined #lisp 2014-06-12T15:04:51Z drewc joined #lisp 2014-06-12T15:04:52Z drmeist__ joined #lisp 2014-06-12T15:05:37Z Rosario quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-12T15:06:56Z varjag quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-12T15:07:23Z FracV quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-12T15:07:51Z ThomasH`: Krystof: I've always thought of the Turing test as a neat thought experiment, not a definitive pass/fail device. I think real AI is one of those things where we'll know it's been achieved when it's been achieved. Because we'll all be slaves. ;-) 2014-06-12T15:08:09Z drmeiste_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T15:09:33Z c3w quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T15:12:04Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-12T15:13:44Z qiemem joined #lisp 2014-06-12T15:16:46Z rune1 joined #lisp 2014-06-12T15:17:08Z dbushenko quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T15:17:18Z trumae quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-12T15:19:28Z ThomasH`: Is removing the ASDF cache on a regular basis warranted or pointless? I've gotten into the, quasi-paranoid, habit of removing the cache whenever I'm putting together a new release of code or want to make sure I'm testing what I think I'm testing. 2014-06-12T15:20:10Z Xach: ThomasH`: I rarely do it, but very occasionally it seems to fix some obscure problem that doesn't make much sense. 2014-06-12T15:20:40Z ThomasH` is now known as ThomasH 2014-06-12T15:22:37Z drmeist__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T15:23:56Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-12T15:25:11Z oGMo: it's particularly necessary if a macro (or the value thereof) from a :depends-on changes 2014-06-12T15:25:40Z ThomasH: Okay, so I'm not just being paranoid. 2014-06-12T15:26:04Z oGMo: nope, there are definitely situations asdf just doesn't know about 2014-06-12T15:26:09Z xificurC quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-12T15:27:35Z davazp joined #lisp 2014-06-12T15:29:26Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-12T15:30:19Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-12T15:30:39Z vlnx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T15:30:47Z JuniorRoy quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-12T15:32:29Z trumae joined #lisp 2014-06-12T15:33:55Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T15:36:58Z rune1 quit (Quit: rune1) 2014-06-12T15:38:27Z YDJX quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T15:39:10Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-12T15:39:57Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-12T15:40:16Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-12T15:41:06Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-12T15:44:19Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T15:48:23Z hitecnologys: Xach: by the way, if you liked that bulbs cratoon, I have plenty more and can put them on site if anybody wants. Although, it will take time as more than 100% of them aren't digitazed or digitazed improperly. 2014-06-12T15:48:48Z Xach: hitecnologys: I do like the cratoon and would love to see more. 2014-06-12T15:49:26Z stassats: i recognized myself in that cartoon 2014-06-12T15:49:46Z hitecnologys: stassats: you get bonus points! 2014-06-12T15:50:53Z hitecnologys: Xach: OK then. I hope I'll make most of them available by the end of July as almost all of what I've drawn is in Russian so it needs both digitazing and translation. 2014-06-12T15:51:50Z zacharias quit (Quit: Bye!) 2014-06-12T15:54:25Z Guest22575: hitecnologys: which cartoons are you guys discussing now? 2014-06-12T15:54:54Z Rosario quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T15:55:14Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-12T15:57:09Z pjb: ThomasH: we 2014-06-12T15:57:49Z pjb: We're already all slaves, so what difference will it make, when the bosses are AI? Hopefully, we'll get better bosses. 2014-06-12T15:58:10Z Rosario_ joined #lisp 2014-06-12T15:58:17Z pjb: And by the way, an algorithm is already on the board of a company. 2014-06-12T15:58:47Z hitecnologys: Guest22575: from ASDF :version usage survey. 2014-06-12T15:58:48Z stassats: is it "1. sell widgets 2. ... 3. profit"? 2014-06-12T15:59:00Z ThomasH: pjb: Someday, I'll attend a lisp conference you're at and we can have this discussion over beer. It'll be much more entertaining. 2014-06-12T15:59:40Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T16:00:22Z pnathan joined #lisp 2014-06-12T16:01:01Z hitecnologys: stassats: no, it's "1. Fire everybody 2. Hire better people 3. IF NOT profit THEN GOTO 1" 2014-06-12T16:01:09Z ThomasH: Right now, I'm fighting with *TERMINAL-IO*, "The effect of changing the valie of *terminal-io*, ... , is implementation-defined." 2014-06-12T16:01:23Z stassats: hitecnologys: i think nowadays they just fire people 2014-06-12T16:01:26Z pjb: Yes, don't. 2014-06-12T16:02:09Z hitecnologys: stassats: sure thing, stupid people. AI would do better. 2014-06-12T16:02:31Z Shinmera- joined #lisp 2014-06-12T16:03:31Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-12T16:03:43Z Shinmera quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-12T16:04:50Z pnathan quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-12T16:06:40Z ustunozg_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T16:07:31Z ustunozgur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T16:07:41Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-12T16:09:40Z hugod quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T16:10:46Z Guest9221 joined #lisp 2014-06-12T16:11:50Z ShinmerARGH joined #lisp 2014-06-12T16:11:53Z dkcl is now known as dickle 2014-06-12T16:12:00Z hugod joined #lisp 2014-06-12T16:12:51Z Rosario_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T16:12:59Z ShinmerARGH is now known as Shinmera 2014-06-12T16:13:13Z Shinmera- quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-12T16:15:10Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T16:15:43Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-06-12T16:17:12Z Shinmera- joined #lisp 2014-06-12T16:17:13Z boogie joined #lisp 2014-06-12T16:17:50Z w37 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T16:18:18Z Shinmera quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-12T16:21:00Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-12T16:21:30Z Yagami joined #lisp 2014-06-12T16:22:40Z Guest9221 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T16:23:42Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-12T16:23:53Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-12T16:24:30Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-06-12T16:27:23Z drmeiste_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-12T16:27:29Z drmeist__ joined #lisp 2014-06-12T16:29:44Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-12T16:30:33Z ShinmerARGH joined #lisp 2014-06-12T16:31:39Z Shinmera- quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-12T16:31:48Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-12T16:33:10Z drmeist__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T16:33:14Z drmeiste_: Are there any C++ programmers who use template programming online who might lend a sympathetic ear and advice for a tough problem that I'm running into? It requires a bit of explanation and I'm looking for advice beyond "Why would you want to do that?" - although it may be time to question my fundamental approach. 2014-06-12T16:33:53Z drmeiste_: It's directly involved with my trying to implement a Common Lisp in C++ that interoperates with C++ and makes it easy to expose C++ classes in Common Lisp. 2014-06-12T16:34:31Z drmeiste_: Feel free to chat with me in private. 2014-06-12T16:34:45Z hitecnologys: drmeiste_: what exactly would you like to know? 2014-06-12T16:34:58Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-06-12T16:36:08Z drmeiste_: I'm incorporating a moving garbage collector into my Common Lisp. It requires every object that is allocated by the garbage collector to have a unique id in the header of the object. 2014-06-12T16:36:43Z hitecnologys quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-12T16:36:44Z drmeiste_: Normally, you would have a small number of classes and you would define an enum that enumerates all of the Kinds (unique ID). 2014-06-12T16:37:08Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-06-12T16:37:28Z drmeiste_: Then you would have functions like allocate_cons() { ptr = malloc(...); ptr->Kind = kind_cons; }. 2014-06-12T16:37:37Z drmeiste_: No problem. Everything works fine. 2014-06-12T16:37:56Z nyef: Make the unique ID a pointer to a structure defining the type? 2014-06-12T16:38:05Z nyef: s/defining/describing/ 2014-06-12T16:38:52Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-12T16:39:51Z drmeiste_: nyef: It is important that the Kind be a small integer from 0...max_kinds. This is so that the kinds can all be listed in a big switch statement so that MPS loop that fixes pointers is fast. 2014-06-12T16:39:53Z ShinmerARGH quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-12T16:40:15Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T16:40:23Z drmeiste_: Is it possible to write user data within the C++ typeinfo data structure? 2014-06-12T16:40:37Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-12T16:40:52Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-12T16:41:14Z nyef: If you're willing to take a pointer dereference per object in that loop, you could stick a function pointer to an appropriate scavenge function in the description object. 2014-06-12T16:41:26Z drmeiste_: Otherwise I'd have to map RTTI type info to the kinds and look the kind up at runtime. 2014-06-12T16:41:57Z cmack joined #lisp 2014-06-12T16:42:23Z lukego quit (Quit: lukego) 2014-06-12T16:42:39Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-12T16:42:45Z drmeiste_: nyef: Hmmm. 2014-06-12T16:43:13Z Shinmera- joined #lisp 2014-06-12T16:44:23Z Yagami: ;D 2014-06-12T16:44:26Z Shinmera quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-12T16:44:29Z drmeiste_: In the allocation function I can get the RTTI type_info() at runtime and I have the type at compile time. 2014-06-12T16:44:40Z nipra quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T16:44:58Z drmeiste_: I've been killing myself trying to write a template function that converts the type into a Kind at compile time - that would be fastest. 2014-06-12T16:45:31Z drmeiste_: The problem is that template functions parameterized on types need all of the type parameters defined when the template function is defined. 2014-06-12T16:45:59Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-06-12T16:46:02Z drmeiste_: nyef: Your suggestion is to put a function pointer specific to the kind in the header and use that to dispatch to the pointer fix function. 2014-06-12T16:46:08Z drmeiste_: Do I read that correctly? 2014-06-12T16:46:26Z Yagami: :D 2014-06-12T16:47:04Z drmeiste_: That would require a runtime lookup mapping the RTTI type_info to the function pointer. 2014-06-12T16:47:44Z atgreen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T16:47:44Z drmeiste_: I'm not saying that's not acceptable - I'm just trying to define the cost. 2014-06-12T16:48:31Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-06-12T16:49:20Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-12T16:49:32Z dbushenko joined #lisp 2014-06-12T16:49:50Z Yagami left #lisp 2014-06-12T16:50:44Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-12T16:50:51Z phadthai: hmm if you had per-type managed lists filled with "pages" full of the same object type, would runtime check of the list type, and processing those objects be fast enough, without needing per-instance extra-data? Is that an unrealistic model for your moving gc? 2014-06-12T16:51:28Z drmeiste_: I currently declare: template GCKind { static KindEnum Kind = Kind_dummy;}; 2014-06-12T16:51:45Z oGMo: phadthai: if you do slab allocation you don't really need to move 2014-06-12T16:51:53Z drmeiste_: Then I specialize with: template <> GCKind {static KindEnum Kind = Kind_Cons_O; }; 2014-06-12T16:52:32Z drmeiste_: phadthai - The Memory Pool System garbage collector I'm using doesn't work that way. All objects go into the same pool. 2014-06-12T16:53:02Z drmeiste_: I'm trying to use the MPS garbage collector rather than write my own - which would bring all sorts of new problems. 2014-06-12T16:53:04Z phadthai: ok 2014-06-12T16:53:24Z drmeiste_: No problem though, I appreciate the feedback. 2014-06-12T16:53:26Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-12T16:53:37Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-12T16:55:03Z drmeiste_: If I defined a map of RTTI type_info(T) to Kind_T and looked up the kind at runtime - that would work fine. Maybe the cost is insignificant. 2014-06-12T16:56:17Z drmeiste_: At least that would get me going again. Maybe later if the cost is high I could put more brain power into coming up with a way to do the mapping of type to Kind_T at compile time. 2014-06-12T16:56:20Z drmeiste_: C++ sucks. 2014-06-12T16:59:22Z drmeiste_: I could do this easily at compile time if I could forward declare any C++ type. But noooooo you can only forward declare simple types - nested types and template types are not allowed to be forward declared. 2014-06-12T17:00:21Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T17:01:37Z davazp quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-12T17:04:59Z davazp joined #lisp 2014-06-12T17:05:05Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-12T17:05:06Z stassats: is that a clang restriction? 2014-06-12T17:05:25Z stassats: if clang supports, you can just ignore the standard prescriptions 2014-06-12T17:06:24Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-12T17:07:01Z jasom: drmeiste_: the unique id, is that per type or per object? 2014-06-12T17:07:11Z drmeiste_: It's a per type. 2014-06-12T17:08:22Z manfoo7 joined #lisp 2014-06-12T17:08:57Z jasom: hmm, a lot of compilers have linker-generated tables you can use, I wonder if clang does 2014-06-12T17:09:08Z jasom: then you could just index into the table for your switch statement. 2014-06-12T17:09:40Z drmeiste_: The type can be simple like Cons_O and it can be complicated like: clbind::Wrapper or clbind::GetterMethoid, class std::__1::allocator > > struct clang::tooling::CompileCommand::*> 2014-06-12T17:11:32Z drmeiste_: The problem is I can't define the template specializer for any of these types unless there is at least a forward declaration of _every_ type listed; and in C++ you can only forward declare simple, top-level classes. 2014-06-12T17:12:07Z Oberon4278 joined #lisp 2014-06-12T17:12:30Z FracV joined #lisp 2014-06-12T17:13:53Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-06-12T17:15:19Z jasom: drmeiste_: worst case scenario with the RTTI think you could always memoize the kind; have a zero-initialized field for kind, and then look it up and fill it in if it's zero 2014-06-12T17:15:42Z jasom: that also lets you pre-populate it for simple types 2014-06-12T17:15:49Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-12T17:16:17Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-12T17:17:59Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-12T17:18:06Z jasom: drmeiste_: see also http://llvm.org/docs/ProgrammersManual.html#isa 2014-06-12T17:18:33Z drmeiste_: jasom: That's an excellent point. I'm coding it up to see if it would work. 2014-06-12T17:18:46Z wz1000 joined #lisp 2014-06-12T17:18:48Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-06-12T17:18:52Z jasom: and remember rtti isn't generated for classes with non-virtual functions 2014-06-12T17:19:57Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-12T17:20:01Z jasom: drmeiste_: http://llvm.org/docs/HowToSetUpLLVMStyleRTTI.html <-- it looks like they've done exactly what you're asking for in clang to avoid C++ RTTI overhead 2014-06-12T17:21:05Z drmeiste_: jasom: Sadly, their RTTI doesn't work with multiple & virtual inheritance - something that I used extensively. 2014-06-12T17:21:46Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-12T17:22:06Z jasom: ah 2014-06-12T17:22:08Z drmeiste_: Rtti not being generated for classes with non-virtual functions may be a problem. I may have to go in and declare some virtual functions. 2014-06-12T17:22:28Z drmeiste_: What a freakin' pain this is. 2014-06-12T17:23:11Z tinyblak quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T17:23:13Z jasom: drmeiste_: if you inherit from a small number of base classes it should be easy 2014-06-12T17:23:21Z jasom: otherwise a pain 2014-06-12T17:23:41Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-12T17:24:27Z drmeiste_: How so? 2014-06-12T17:24:50Z jasom: just add a virtual function to each base class 2014-06-12T17:24:59Z jasom: you likely have a virtual destructor anyway in that case. 2014-06-12T17:25:05Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-12T17:25:16Z fortitude: drmeiste_: just as a note, I remember reading the other day that apparently you can forward-declare inner classes 2014-06-12T17:25:23Z fortitude: but only once the outer class is a complete type 2014-06-12T17:25:30Z fortitude: (i.e. it's been defined) 2014-06-12T17:25:54Z REPLeffect joined #lisp 2014-06-12T17:26:11Z drmeiste_: jasom: Got it - yes. 2014-06-12T17:28:01Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2014-06-12T17:28:35Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2014-06-12T17:29:24Z shridhar quit (Quit: shridhar) 2014-06-12T17:30:05Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-12T17:30:22Z jasom: drmeiste_: out of curiosity, why are you using a switch statement instead of just calling a virtual function? 2014-06-12T17:30:56Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T17:31:38Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-12T17:32:19Z drmeiste_: jasom: It's important that the obj_scan function for MPS run as fast as possible. 2014-06-12T17:32:37Z drmeiste_: Check out http://www.ravenbrook.com/project/mps/master/manual/html/guide/lang.html and scroll down to 3.4.1 "The scan method" 2014-06-12T17:33:09Z jasom: drmeiste_: http://www.ravenbrook.com/project/mps/master/manual/html/guide/lang.html#the-scan-method <-- direct link 2014-06-12T17:33:12Z drmeiste_: The MPS folks made it clear to me that if I call a bunch of virtual functions that it would completely spoil the inner loop. 2014-06-12T17:33:34Z f-a left #lisp 2014-06-12T17:34:17Z drmeiste_: MPS_SCAN_BEGIN sets up a bunch of variables that the compiler puts into registers and the loop should be very tight. 2014-06-12T17:34:42Z jasom: ah 2014-06-12T17:34:47Z jasom: so they want everythign inlined 2014-06-12T17:37:02Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-12T17:37:42Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-12T17:38:57Z foreignFunction joined #lisp 2014-06-12T17:39:45Z vlnx joined #lisp 2014-06-12T17:40:53Z KCL_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-12T17:41:42Z ustunozg_ joined #lisp 2014-06-12T17:41:55Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T17:44:15Z jasom: I would start with just a switch on the typeid then 2014-06-12T17:44:20Z jasom: you can always make it faster from there 2014-06-12T17:44:40Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2014-06-12T17:47:36Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-12T17:49:13Z jasom: If you have c++ 11 you might also want to see this: http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/typeindex/type_index/ You can make a hash-table of type ids 2014-06-12T17:52:00Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-12T17:53:12Z jamesf joined #lisp 2014-06-12T17:53:53Z drmeiste_: jasom: Yes, I had found that - thank you. 2014-06-12T17:53:59Z rszeno joined #lisp 2014-06-12T17:54:05Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-12T17:54:13Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-12T17:54:13Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-12T17:54:28Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-06-12T17:54:41Z drmeiste_: I'll build a hash-table of type ids mapping to Kinds and then look up the kind when I allocate the object and put that in the header. Then I'll switch on the kinds. 2014-06-12T17:55:05Z jasom: drmeiste_: that works so long as you don't have any static initializers 2014-06-12T17:55:14Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-12T17:55:38Z drmeiste_: jasom: How so? 2014-06-12T17:55:45Z jasom: when does the hash-table get built? 2014-06-12T17:59:34Z askatasuna quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T18:00:00Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-12T18:00:35Z drmeiste_: After the start of main() 2014-06-12T18:01:13Z drmeiste_: So after all of the static initializers have run. 2014-06-12T18:05:47Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-12T18:06:02Z wchun quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-12T18:06:25Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T18:06:40Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-12T18:09:50Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-12T18:11:18Z nug700 joined #lisp 2014-06-12T18:13:55Z varjag_ joined #lisp 2014-06-12T18:15:22Z askatasuna joined #lisp 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avoiding pitchforks and torches at your office door 2014-06-12T19:22:33Z Bike: man, doing otherwise would make evaluation really hard, huh 2014-06-12T19:22:33Z stassats: how would APPLY or FUNCALL work otherwise? 2014-06-12T19:23:03Z jasom: stassats: I suppose that's a valid point. 2014-06-12T19:23:12Z Bike: on the other hand, usually the compiler does some optimization for constant keyword arguments 2014-06-12T19:23:17Z dlowe: I think it may be fast-pathed when all the constants are in the right place 2014-06-12T19:23:18Z dlowe: yeah 2014-06-12T19:23:24Z zajn joined #lisp 2014-06-12T19:23:27Z jasom: And not having that restriction doesn't prevent the compiler from optimizing constant keyword arguments 2014-06-12T19:23:33Z stassats: for inlined functions like shown, sure 2014-06-12T19:23:45Z stassats: but sbcl doesn't do any optimizations otherwise 2014-06-12T19:24:01Z Bike: i know sbcl has a special case on write, at least 2014-06-12T19:24:08Z dlowe: I remember reading that functions with keyword arguments were terribly slow in comparison 2014-06-12T19:24:25Z Bike: in paip? 2014-06-12T19:24:55Z dlowe: more recently 2014-06-12T19:24:58Z stassats: sbcl can transform a call with optional arguments to a call to a different function with only required parameters 2014-06-12T19:25:07Z jasom: It seems like a direct function call to a function that the compiler knows the defun for should be easy to optimize 2014-06-12T19:25:19Z stassats: but that happens only for some functions and is done manually 2014-06-12T19:25:24Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-12T19:25:57Z stassats: jasom: functions can be redefined 2014-06-12T19:26:07Z jasom: stassats: there are limits on what redifinition is allwed 2014-06-12T19:26:36Z nha joined #lisp 2014-06-12T19:26:43Z stassats: there aren't, not so that it makes "easy to optimize" 2014-06-12T19:27:06Z jasom: stassats: in the same file, not declared noinline 2014-06-12T19:27:11Z jasom: in different files, declared inline 2014-06-12T19:27:28Z stassats: inline functions do not have arguments or parameters at all 2014-06-12T19:27:29Z jasom: though IIRC sbcl is stupid with inline (it always inlines I think) 2014-06-12T19:27:43Z stassats: and in the same file, the function can be called from a different file 2014-06-12T19:27:49Z stassats: you would need two entry points 2014-06-12T19:27:55Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T19:28:01Z jasom: stassats: sbcl generates functions with two entry points all the time 2014-06-12T19:28:15Z stassats: does it? 2014-06-12T19:28:26Z dlowe: (lambda (&key x) (+ x 1/2)) = 26,775,436 processor cycles, (lambda (x) (+ x 1/2)) = 2,672,012 processor cycles 2014-06-12T19:28:39Z jasom: well I assume so from the disassembly; usually several instructions in it says something like ;; No arg parsing entry point 2014-06-12T19:29:08Z Bike: dlowe: "wow, that's a fortieth of a second on my netbook" 2014-06-12T19:29:15Z stassats: jasom: nothing calls that entry point from the outside 2014-06-12T19:29:36Z jasom: stassats: ah 2014-06-12T19:29:46Z Bike: i have wondered what that comment meant. 2014-06-12T19:30:16Z jasom: well for functions not declared notinline, it could always generate 2 functions; one to parse the args and one to do the meat, and it could inline the first one for intrafile calls 2014-06-12T19:30:17Z dlowe: Bike: that's a trivial example. 2014-06-12T19:30:44Z Bike: well yeah, i'm half kidding 2014-06-12T19:30:49Z stassats: jasom: a tail call can jump there, but anything else goes through XEP, an external entry point 2014-06-12T19:31:11Z Bike: the difference between a keyed and unkeyed function is probably mostly constant, though, it has to deal with :allow-other-keys and shit no matter how many parameters there are 2014-06-12T19:31:59Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-12T19:32:33Z stassats overclocked his CPU to run SBCL faster 2014-06-12T19:33:02Z jasom: stassats: has anyone tried doing something where it assumes no defuns will change (so it can make more efficient calls) and then replaces the old definitions with stubs to do a dynamic call when a defun is redefined? 2014-06-12T19:33:17Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-12T19:33:26Z stassats: there are many different strategies to this, none of them are without compromise 2014-06-12T19:33:55Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T19:34:56Z ustunozg_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-12T19:37:29Z pchrist quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-12T19:38:28Z pchrist joined #lisp 2014-06-12T19:40:10Z Sir_herrbatka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T19:40:19Z Sir_herrbatka joined #lisp 2014-06-12T19:41:26Z stassats: and keyword parsing isn't the only problem, boxing of floats is another 2014-06-12T19:41:41Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-12T19:41:42Z stassats: if there were multiple XEPs, it could pass things in xmm registers 2014-06-12T19:41:46Z aftershave quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-12T19:43:49Z Sir_herrbatka quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-12T19:44:35Z Borbus: Is there any reason not to use lisp-implementation-type to find implementation specific variables (like argv etc.) at runtime? 2014-06-12T19:44:46Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T19:45:01Z Bike: yeah, because you can use reader conditionals and do it at compile-time easily 2014-06-12T19:45:36Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-12T19:45:47Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-06-12T19:46:16Z Borbus: I suppose so 2014-06-12T19:47:10Z Borbus: I've seen people do it with autoconf etc. though 2014-06-12T19:49:11Z Borbus: Wait.. 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wouldn't even be good enough for mechanical turk. 2014-06-12T22:44:56Z heddwch: Zhivago: You don't? 2014-06-12T22:45:09Z Zhivago: Not really. 2014-06-12T22:45:17Z heddwch: You're missing out 2014-06-12T22:45:31Z Zhivago: Why bother with enslaving retards? 2014-06-12T22:45:39Z heddwch: Just a hobby 2014-06-12T22:45:53Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-12T22:45:57Z Zhivago: Well, there is that possibility, I guess -- but it seems independent of AI. 2014-06-12T22:46:07Z heddwch: Cheaper, definitely 2014-06-12T22:49:16Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-12T22:51:10Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-12T22:51:32Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-12T22:53:39Z interlocutor quit (Quit: Technocracy now!) 2014-06-12T22:57:33Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-12T22:58:52Z Sgeo joined #lisp 2014-06-12T23:00:18Z Vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-12T23:00:30Z Joreji joined #lisp 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ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-13T09:18:15Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2014-06-13T09:20:15Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-06-13T09:20:42Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-13T09:22:15Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-13T09:23:37Z wz1000 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-13T09:23:41Z genkinodenki joined #lisp 2014-06-13T09:25:22Z genkinodenki: how can I concatenate a variable name literally into a string (not referencing the value) ? 2014-06-13T09:25:28Z wz1000 joined #lisp 2014-06-13T09:25:47Z Zhivago: Variables aren't objects in CL -- do you mean symbol? 2014-06-13T09:25:57Z zacharias_ is now known as zacharias 2014-06-13T09:26:18Z genkinodenki: yes I guess 2014-06-13T09:26:29Z Zhivago: Then see symbol-name. 2014-06-13T09:26:50Z genkinodenki: I actually tried with symbol-name or symbol-value or some such 2014-06-13T09:27:09Z Zhivago: Well, I can't help that. 2014-06-13T09:27:15Z Zhivago: Think of a more specific question. 2014-06-13T09:28:53Z nug700 quit (Quit: bye) 2014-06-13T09:30:03Z genkinodenki: I don't know how to use symbol-name. 2014-06-13T09:30:20Z H4ns: genkinodenki: it is a function. you call it. 2014-06-13T09:30:43Z nydel: is anyone familiar with xelf, or knows where documentation is? 2014-06-13T09:30:54Z samebchase: genkinodenki: I had to do (alexandria:symbolicate (symbol-name sorting-alg) '-basic) recently. 2014-06-13T09:31:12Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-13T09:31:31Z genkinodenki: I have e.g. (defparameter x nil) and I need to concatenate x into a string 2014-06-13T09:31:49Z H4ns: genkinodenki: why don't you read a beginners tutorial on lisp first? 2014-06-13T09:32:10Z genkinodenki: H4ns: I read a lot, and I didn't solve this 2014-06-13T09:32:53Z nydel: genkinodenki: you're just trying to take a symbol-name and make it into a string? 2014-06-13T09:33:07Z H4ns: genkinodenki: then try to rephrase your question. (symbol-name 'x) => "X", what's not clear? 2014-06-13T09:33:24Z nydel: such as if i did (setq x 1) (take-thingie-and-get-string x) ==> "x" 2014-06-13T09:33:37Z nydel: what H4ns said. 2014-06-13T09:34:08Z genkinodenki: nydel: I want to create, for example, "xy" where x is a symbol, but a symbol taken as argument, and instead of referencing the value that the symbol points to, I need to write x itself to the string 2014-06-13T09:34:24Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-06-13T09:34:47Z Zhivago: So, what is (symbol-name 'xy)? 2014-06-13T09:34:50Z nydel: "xy" wherein x is a symbol? 2014-06-13T09:35:03Z genkinodenki: nydel: yes 2014-06-13T09:35:21Z nydel: and what is y 2014-06-13T09:35:37Z genkinodenki: Zhivago: (symbol-name 'asdalkjd) seems to => ASDALKJD 2014-06-13T09:35:51Z genkinodenki: nydel: y can be anything, a constant string in this case 2014-06-13T09:36:07Z nydel: (write-to-string (symbol-name 'asdalkjd)) 2014-06-13T09:36:19Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-13T09:36:27Z genkinodenki: so I may have, for example, (defparameter x 100) and "y" and I want to concatenate the two so that the result is "xy" and not "100y" 2014-06-13T09:36:41Z nydel: ah i see 2014-06-13T09:36:43Z samebchase: genkinodenki: you can use symbolicate to concatenate two strings and get a symbol 2014-06-13T09:37:09Z H4ns: genkinodenki: (format nil "~(~A~A~)" 'x 'y) 2014-06-13T09:37:20Z samebchase: (symbolicate (symbol-name x) "y") 2014-06-13T09:37:45Z genkinodenki: samebchase: is this alexandria? 2014-06-13T09:37:46Z nydel: (concatenate 'string (format nil "~a" (symbol-name x)) "y") 2014-06-13T09:37:50Z samebchase: genkinodenki: yeah 2014-06-13T09:37:54Z H4ns: nydel: wat? 2014-06-13T09:38:19Z nydel: quote x in symbol-name sorry 2014-06-13T09:38:28Z samebchase: nydel: he wants a symbol, you're returning a string 2014-06-13T09:38:29Z H4ns: nydel: what makes (symbol-name 'x) worse than (format nil "~a" (symbol-name 'x)) 2014-06-13T09:38:36Z H4ns: samebchase: he wants a string 2014-06-13T09:38:54Z genkinodenki: but if I quote it, it's a literal x, but if in place of x there is something else, it won't change accordingly? 2014-06-13T09:39:02Z samebchase: oh... he does. 2014-06-13T09:39:06Z Sir_herrbatka: hi all 2014-06-13T09:39:12Z nydel: let me throw it into my repl one sec 2014-06-13T09:39:37Z H4ns: whenever i see (format nil "~a" ...) i cry 2014-06-13T09:39:40Z pjb: genkinodenki: you want string-downcase 2014-06-13T09:39:46Z pjb: (string-downcase 'x) -> "x" 2014-06-13T09:40:06Z pjb: well, at least that's what you're asking for. 2014-06-13T09:40:06Z genkinodenki: because next time I might have (defparameter z 200) and "y" and I want "zy" and not "200y" and not "xy", etc. 2014-06-13T09:40:40Z nydel: (string-downcase (concatenate 'string (format nil "~a" (symbol-name 'x)) "y")) 2014-06-13T09:40:48Z samebchase: H4ns: what's wrong with that? 2014-06-13T09:40:57Z nydel: seems to work fine after (setq x 100) 2014-06-13T09:41:15Z pjb: genkinodenki: (defmacro take-thingie-and-get-string (thingie) (string-downcase thingie)) 2014-06-13T09:41:15Z nydel: you can remove the downcase if you like 2014-06-13T09:41:24Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-06-13T09:41:38Z nydel: also you can write it as a function that takes two keys, value & name-rather-than-value-p 2014-06-13T09:41:49Z H4ns: samebchase: it is wasteful and looks awful. princ-to-string is working as well, and if you just need the name of a symbol, symbol-name returns that. 2014-06-13T09:41:50Z nydel: (value meaning argument) 2014-06-13T09:42:20Z samebchase: H4ns: ah. thanks. 2014-06-13T09:42:42Z H4ns wonders about the defparameter in genkinodenki's examples and suspects that something else is really what's whanted. 2014-06-13T09:42:45Z H4ns: wanted 2014-06-13T09:43:01Z nydel: i think there's missing information in this case too 2014-06-13T09:43:05Z pjb: Well, if you want to play telepathy. 2014-06-13T09:43:12Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-13T09:43:30Z nydel: H4ns: i know my code there isn't beautiful but it's a weird thing to be doing in the first place 2014-06-13T09:43:33Z H4ns: i don't, that's why i'm stopping to guess now. 2014-06-13T09:43:59Z nydel: x can be internalized i guess 2014-06-13T09:44:33Z nydel: never y'all mind any of that actually, rather --> what exactly are we doing? if we know that, it'll be easier to solve the best way. 2014-06-13T09:44:47Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-13T09:44:55Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-13T09:46:11Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-13T09:50:10Z genkinodenki: nydel: the problem is if I quote x then it becomes static, right? in fact I have a function that takes an argument x. I then need to create "xy" without referencing the value that x points to, like explained, but so that the function doesn't actually know beforehand if it gets fed x or what 2014-06-13T09:50:29Z pjb: genkinodenki: (defmacro take-thingie-and-get-string (thingie) (string-downcase thingie)) 2014-06-13T09:50:43Z genkinodenki: sorry for my horrible explanations 2014-06-13T09:50:56Z pjb: genkinodenki: yes, you may be sorry :-) 2014-06-13T09:52:22Z pjb: (defun f (argument) (string-downcase argument)) (f 'x) --> "x" 2014-06-13T09:52:28Z girzel joined #lisp 2014-06-13T09:52:32Z pjb: genkinodenki: why don't you take into account what we're telling you? 2014-06-13T09:52:37Z genkinodenki: pjb: I am 2014-06-13T09:53:21Z pjb: Notice that you can use string-downcase indirectly, with format: (format nil "~(~a~)" 'x) --> "x" 2014-06-13T09:54:57Z genkinodenki: pjb: I'm not sure how string-downcase is relevant? (I am looking it up and trying it out) 2014-06-13T09:55:08Z pjb: genkinodenki: now, we're making some fun out of you, because you're asking for downcased strings. 2014-06-13T09:55:31Z pjb: (symbol-name 'x) -> "X" and usually you should expect and want uppercase strings there. 2014-06-13T09:55:47Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2014-06-13T09:55:52Z pjb: Notice how (not (eq (intern "x") (intern "X"))) 2014-06-13T09:56:37Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-13T09:56:42Z jusss quit (Changing host) 2014-06-13T09:56:42Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-13T09:57:25Z genkinodenki: the string is actually going to be funcalled afterwards, so it's just intermediary. or that's what I need anyway, until I figure out how to make this easier 2014-06-13T09:57:36Z nydel: genkinodenki: if you quote x as an arguent to (symbol-value) it does not return anything aside from "X" 2014-06-13T09:57:43Z pjb: You cannot funcall a string! 2014-06-13T09:57:55Z pjb: genkinodenki: lisp is a strongly typed programming language! 2014-06-13T09:58:04Z pjb: You cannot do any silly thing with it! 2014-06-13T09:58:19Z H4ns: is there a simple way to use all symbols from another package (exported or not)? 2014-06-13T09:58:30Z pjb: Yes, qualify them. 2014-06-13T09:58:40Z pjb: another-package::x another-package::y another-package::z 2014-06-13T09:59:00Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2014-06-13T09:59:08Z H4ns: does someone with a functioning brain have a better answer? 2014-06-13T09:59:24Z genkinodenki: nydel: I think there's a communication barrier of some sort, and I unfortunately can't explain myself any better :) 2014-06-13T09:59:35Z wz1000 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T09:59:45Z genkinodenki: thanks for all the help though 2014-06-13T10:01:02Z pjb: asdf:run-shell-command is broken, redirections exit with status 1. 2014-06-13T10:01:16Z pjb: H4ns: (import (list-all-symbols :another-package) :this-package) 2014-06-13T10:01:27Z H4ns: pjb: thank you! 2014-06-13T10:01:47Z pjb: But perhaps you should correct this non-functioning brain problem of yours first. 2014-06-13T10:02:11Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-06-13T10:02:16Z H4ns: pjb: list-all-symbols is from pjb-cl? 2014-06-13T10:02:17Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-13T10:02:20Z pjb: yes. 2014-06-13T10:02:51Z H4ns: ok, i'll write that myself, thanks anyway. 2014-06-13T10:02:52Z antoszka: H4ns: you could do it slightly more verbosely with do-symbols 2014-06-13T10:03:23Z samebchase quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-13T10:04:01Z samebchase joined #lisp 2014-06-13T10:04:22Z Sir_herrbatka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-13T10:04:58Z H4ns: lisp is so awesome. 2014-06-13T10:05:02Z jaaqo joined #lisp 2014-06-13T10:05:03Z H4ns: it needs to be mentioned sometimes. 2014-06-13T10:05:51Z girzel: is there any way, when compiling a Lisp executable, to control how much swap it's likely to use on a linux system? This is the Stumpwm window manager, compiled with SBCL 1.1.18, and it's dog-slow if it swaps. 2014-06-13T10:06:38Z H4ns: everything is slow if it is swapped. 2014-06-13T10:06:57Z Praise quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-13T10:07:01Z H4ns: swap space is so from the last century. get more ram instead. 2014-06-13T10:07:08Z H4ns has his helpful day. 2014-06-13T10:07:10Z girzel: right, which is why I'm wondering if there's any compilation flags that might influence that 2014-06-13T10:07:15Z girzel: yeah, thanks :) 2014-06-13T10:07:37Z H4ns: girzel: get rid of your swap space. seriously, sbcl does not know when it becomes swapped. 2014-06-13T10:07:54Z AdmiralBumbleBee quit (Quit: AdmiralBumbleBee) 2014-06-13T10:09:51Z antoszka: girzel: it is possible to lock pages from swapping from the userland, and you can lock the whole process from swapping 2014-06-13T10:10:37Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-13T10:10:38Z antoszka: though i'm not sure if there's a utility where you can just give a pid and mlockitall() 2014-06-13T10:10:59Z antoszka: (excuse the wonky grammar in the function call) 2014-06-13T10:11:43Z AdmiralBumbleBee joined #lisp 2014-06-13T10:12:05Z girzel: antoszka: okay, thanks -- just knowing that this isn't really solvable at compile time is the main thing 2014-06-13T10:12:22Z antoszka: not that I know of 2014-06-13T10:12:31Z girzel: I'll start looking into controlling the process itself 2014-06-13T10:13:17Z girzel: I got slightly better performance using the :sb-core-compression feature, but only a little bit 2014-06-13T10:13:18Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-13T10:13:19Z pjb: ah, it's not asdf, it's a full file system… 2014-06-13T10:15:11Z pjb: genkinodenki: so, I was going to say before I was interrupted, since you must funcall a function or a symbol, you need to find the specific symbol you need. It most probably is not in lowercase. Therefore you should not ask for "x" from x (which is actually a symbol named "X"), but "X"! 2014-06-13T10:15:34Z H4ns: hehe. 2014-06-13T10:16:50Z harish_ joined #lisp 2014-06-13T10:19:41Z ustunozgur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T10:20:18Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-13T10:24:15Z _schulte_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-13T10:24:17Z jusss: help! http://paste.ubuntu.com/7638232/ 2014-06-13T10:25:10Z genkinodenki: pjb: ok, cheers. that was actually headache for later, another round of "conversion". but I'm pretty sure I'm not seeing something clearly / knowing something quintessential for solving the problem more elegantly. it's a good exercise anyway 2014-06-13T10:27:28Z pjb: jusss: as in #scheme. 2014-06-13T10:30:03Z pjb: jusss: well, it's confusing; you're using setq and a lisp-1 expression. What language are you using? Here we're considering only Common Lisp. 2014-06-13T10:32:03Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-13T10:33:22Z Mon_Ouie: You can call a lambda as ((lambda (x) x) 1) in Common Lisp (it has to be a lambda literal, not just an expression that evaluates to a lambda, but that's the case in his code) 2014-06-13T10:33:22Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-13T10:34:07Z pjb: Mon_Ouie: (((lambda cannot appear in a CL form. 2014-06-13T10:34:26Z Mon_Ouie: Oh, indeed 2014-06-13T10:34:33Z m4dnificent is now known as madnificent 2014-06-13T10:34:43Z pjb: Well, it could be a cond clause. 2014-06-13T10:34:56Z pjb: But it couldn't start a CL form. 2014-06-13T10:37:37Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-13T10:38:26Z jiteboxr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-13T10:41:34Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-13T10:42:11Z jusss: (defun a (x) (+ x y)) (defun b (s) ((funcall a 2) s)) why its wrong ? 2014-06-13T10:42:16Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-06-13T10:42:54Z alpha-: many reasons. 2014-06-13T10:43:21Z ustunozg_ joined #lisp 2014-06-13T10:44:54Z jusss_ joined #lisp 2014-06-13T10:46:33Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-13T10:46:52Z ustunozgur quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-13T10:47:32Z jusss quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-13T10:53:51Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T10:58:23Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-13T11:03:22Z Zhivago: jusss: Explain ((funcall a 2) s)). 2014-06-13T11:03:50Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-13T11:03:52Z girzel quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-13T11:04:38Z nydel: anyone familiar with :xelf ? 2014-06-13T11:04:51Z nydel: i can't find any documentation 2014-06-13T11:05:28Z jusss_: Zhivago: my mistake. i would get a return fuction 2014-06-13T11:05:53Z jusss_ is now known as juss 2014-06-13T11:06:15Z Zhivago: jusss: Um, what? 2014-06-13T11:06:38Z Zhivago: jusss: ((funcall a 2) s) <- what do you think this _means_? 2014-06-13T11:07:34Z pjb: jusss: read http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_a.htm 2014-06-13T11:08:16Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T11:09:45Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-06-13T11:15:04Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-13T11:16:35Z nydel: i think it means a form used to test error output formatting in an repl but that's just a guess 2014-06-13T11:18:13Z _schulte_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-13T11:21:16Z prxq: nydel: i've never seen :xelf anywhere, so maybe you should provide som context. I would guess it has something to do with a binary executable file format. 2014-06-13T11:27:05Z theos: were any revisions made to CLOS or CL after june 1988? 2014-06-13T11:31:04Z nydel: prxq: it was something to do with graphics. but i think :pal might satisfy my needs, and it has some docs 2014-06-13T11:31:24Z nydel: i just quickloaded :cletris a cl tetris which runs with :pal and it was very nice 2014-06-13T11:33:20Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T11:34:00Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-06-13T11:34:00Z Xach: nydel: the names of such projects do not generally include a leading colon 2014-06-13T11:34:23Z Xach: theos: I think so. I'm not sure exactly how to verify that thought though. Maybe from mailing list archives or dates stuck in dpans sources. 2014-06-13T11:35:49Z theos: Xach oh! i was reading the book by ms keane and she mentions that 2014-06-13T11:36:30Z toor` joined #lisp 2014-06-13T11:37:48Z theos: hmm maybe nothing important was added because the book was reprinted in 2001 and the statement wasnt changed 2014-06-13T11:38:18Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-13T11:38:44Z toor`: dooes any1 have the code/tape reels for genera 7.2? restoring a old lisp machin but the tapes are mouldy .. 2014-06-13T11:38:51Z nydel: Xach: right, sometimes i do that here to indicate i'm talking of a system/package.. is there a more proper way? 2014-06-13T11:40:05Z Xach: nydel: just the name suffices, i think. 2014-06-13T11:43:03Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-06-13T11:44:13Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-13T11:45:44Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-13T11:45:47Z ferada: ~.~. 2014-06-13T11:47:18Z trumae__ joined #lisp 2014-06-13T11:47:56Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 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It's freaked out on another thread and consuming 100% cpu. I don't know why. What are my options? 2014-06-13T14:33:14Z oGMo: C-c s t, k 2014-06-13T14:33:22Z hitecnologys: dlowe: kill it with fire! 2014-06-13T14:33:29Z dlowe: yes, but I actually want to know what's happening 2014-06-13T14:33:39Z oGMo: dlowe: interrupt with #'break 2014-06-13T14:33:49Z doomlord_1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-13T14:33:51Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2014-06-13T14:33:51Z dlowe: doesn't help. 2014-06-13T14:34:05Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-13T14:34:14Z oGMo: well then you're probably SOL in sbcl unless you can force it to ldb, and do anything meaningful, but i dunno 2014-06-13T14:34:30Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-13T14:34:37Z oGMo: in theory you could try attaching gdb but i never get meaningful results there either 2014-06-13T14:34:51Z Zhivago: You can invoke ldb via gbd, iirc. 2014-06-13T14:35:07Z dlowe: what I need is a lisp-aware oprofile :p 2014-06-13T14:37:41Z drmeiste_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T14:39:33Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-13T14:44:39Z dsp_ joined #lisp 2014-06-13T14:45:24Z palter quit 2014-06-13T14:45:29Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-06-13T14:45:49Z maxpeck joined #lisp 2014-06-13T14:46:35Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-06-13T14:48:44Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-13T14:49:46Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-13T14:50:12Z maxpeck quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-13T14:50:14Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-13T14:51:40Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-06-13T14:51:42Z kushal quit (Changing host) 2014-06-13T14:51:42Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-06-13T14:53:23Z dlowe: hm. I may be able to use sprof for this after all 2014-06-13T14:53:41Z maxpeck joined #lisp 2014-06-13T14:54:28Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-13T14:56:19Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T14:56:35Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-13T14:57:14Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-13T14:58:42Z maxpeck quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-13T14:58:58Z mathrick_: http://kingjamesprogramming.tumblr.com/post/81477902658 2014-06-13T14:59:27Z Oberon4278 joined #lisp 2014-06-13T14:59:35Z dlowe: it's bound up in iolib :( 2014-06-13T14:59:56Z dlowe: theory: iolib freaks out when it has watched invalid fd 2014-06-13T15:00:14Z oGMo: could be looping on eof or something yeah 2014-06-13T15:00:32Z dlowe: it should probably stop watching an fd on error 2014-06-13T15:00:37Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-13T15:00:43Z dlowe: maybe it already does and I have an old version 2014-06-13T15:00:54Z oGMo: well time to M-. and start figuring it out ;) 2014-06-13T15:01:58Z dlowe: I'll probably just ask fe[nl]ix at some point 2014-06-13T15:05:05Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-13T15:05:38Z High-Q-Brah quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-13T15:06:49Z _schulte_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-13T15:07:55Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-13T15:12:33Z stardiviner quit (Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/) 2014-06-13T15:13:01Z BinaryMcAwesome joined #lisp 2014-06-13T15:13:03Z jaaqo quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-13T15:13:22Z BinaryMcAwesome is now known as Guest93067 2014-06-13T15:17:13Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-13T15:20:28Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2014-06-13T15:20:29Z Denommus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-13T15:21:07Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-13T15:21:54Z jewel joined #lisp 2014-06-13T15:22:27Z xificurC quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-13T15:23:37Z lukego_ joined #lisp 2014-06-13T15:24:46Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-13T15:24:48Z ivan\ quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-13T15:26:18Z rszeno joined #lisp 2014-06-13T15:26:28Z lukego quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-13T15:26:28Z lukego_ is now known as lukego 2014-06-13T15:26:42Z ufd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-13T15:27:12Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-13T15:28:54Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2014-06-13T15:29:05Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-13T15:30:32Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-13T15:30:37Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-06-13T15:31:52Z aftershave quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-13T15:33:00Z ustunozgur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T15:34:15Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-13T15:35:42Z ufd joined #lisp 2014-06-13T15:37:16Z hugoduncan is now known as hugod|away 2014-06-13T15:38:23Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-13T15:38:35Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-06-13T15:40:30Z TDog__ joined #lisp 2014-06-13T15:40:46Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2014-06-13T15:41:11Z wilfredh joined #lisp 2014-06-13T15:41:34Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-13T15:41:39Z TDog__ is now known as TDog 2014-06-13T15:43:14Z lukego_ joined #lisp 2014-06-13T15:43:25Z drmeiste_: Is this the accepted idiom for looking up something in a hash-table and if it isn't there, creating a default and then writing the new one into the hash-table? https://gist.github.com/drmeister/5c17b8d44c0a6828f54c 2014-06-13T15:43:34Z aftershave joined #lisp 2014-06-13T15:43:55Z dlowe: drmeiste_: That will make a new object every time 2014-06-13T15:44:02Z lukego_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-13T15:44:32Z drmeiste_: Thank you - that's right - gethash is a function, not a macro. 2014-06-13T15:44:33Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-13T15:44:40Z drmeiste_: Duh. 2014-06-13T15:44:47Z lukego_ joined #lisp 2014-06-13T15:44:48Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-13T15:44:48Z Denommus quit (Changing host) 2014-06-13T15:44:48Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-13T15:45:37Z l_a_m quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-13T15:46:09Z Denommus quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-13T15:46:12Z lukego quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-13T15:46:16Z lukego_ is now known as lukego 2014-06-13T15:46:26Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-06-13T15:48:32Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-13T15:49:34Z matko joined #lisp 2014-06-13T15:50:46Z drmeiste_: Is this the accepted idiom then? SETF has a code smell for me these days. https://gist.github.com/drmeister/ab749d7ab8eb8e0110e5 2014-06-13T15:51:03Z drmeiste_: SETF of symbols 2014-06-13T15:51:30Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-13T15:51:59Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-13T15:53:04Z prxq: drmeiste_: looks good to me. 2014-06-13T15:53:53Z prxq: drmeiste_: in line 7 I'd have used a let instead of a setf 2014-06-13T15:53:53Z mdallastella quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-13T15:54:03Z Zhivago: You could wrap that up in something like (let ((v (mvp (v p) (x) (if p v (gen)))) ... 2014-06-13T15:54:10Z mdallastella joined #lisp 2014-06-13T15:54:36Z mdallastella is now known as Guest72652 2014-06-13T15:55:07Z Zhivago: A bit of macrology would allow for something like gethash but with a lazily evaluated default, which seems to be what you want. 2014-06-13T15:55:12Z Guest72652 is now known as mdallastella 2014-06-13T15:55:16Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-13T15:55:41Z drmeiste_: prxq: But I need tenum to have the new value on line 15. the LET will be out of scope at that point. 2014-06-13T15:56:18Z drmeiste_: Zhivago: I agree on both counts. 2014-06-13T15:57:12Z prxq: drmeiste_: ah ok. Well, I don't think this code reeks in any way. Looks good to me. 2014-06-13T15:58:36Z jiteboxr joined #lisp 2014-06-13T15:59:11Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-13T15:59:22Z hugod quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T16:00:18Z drmeiste_: Ok, so this is more like what Zhivago suggested without using a macro. https://gist.github.com/drmeister/3b3f7af89507d39834d2 2014-06-13T16:00:47Z hugod|away is now known as hugod 2014-06-13T16:01:15Z hugod is now known as Guest78606 2014-06-13T16:01:27Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-13T16:04:26Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-13T16:05:04Z Shinmera: I think this week marks my one year anniversary of using CL. Huzzah! 2014-06-13T16:05:38Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-13T16:06:56Z Xach: You were consed again 2014-06-13T16:07:20Z Xach: Keep up the good work and keep making cool libraries! 2014-06-13T16:07:28Z Shinmera: I hope I can! 2014-06-13T16:07:33Z Xach: When you are as old as pjb you will have as many libraries as he does! 2014-06-13T16:07:37Z Xach: just kidding, that is impossible 2014-06-13T16:07:40Z Shinmera: heh 2014-06-13T16:08:20Z boogie joined #lisp 2014-06-13T16:08:38Z Shinmera: Well I'm going to be busy with Parasol for a while, so no new libraries for the time being. 2014-06-13T16:10:02Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-13T16:10:33Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-13T16:11:03Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T16:11:05Z ustunozgur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T16:11:53Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-06-13T16:12:14Z lukego_ joined #lisp 2014-06-13T16:12:26Z ustunozg_ joined #lisp 2014-06-13T16:13:22Z lukego quit (Ping 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4.0.5, yason 0.6.6, SBCL 1.2.0, hunchentoot 1.2.27, asdf 3.1.2 2014-06-13T17:31:49Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-13T17:31:50Z stassats quit (Changing host) 2014-06-13T17:31:50Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-13T17:31:53Z crelix joined #lisp 2014-06-13T17:31:58Z Fare: jasom: I released cl-launch 4.0.5 for you 2014-06-13T17:32:11Z Fare: fixes the issues you mentioned (and more) on ECL 2014-06-13T17:32:19Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-13T17:32:42Z lukego_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-13T17:33:55Z jasom: thanks Fare! 2014-06-13T17:34:21Z shridhar quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T17:34:49Z jasom: Fare: is git://common-lisp.net/projects/xcvb/cl-launch.git not the right place to get it from? 2014-06-13T17:34:57Z ustunozgur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T17:34:58Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-13T17:35:02Z Fare: oops, haven't pushed to git yet 2014-06-13T17:35:06Z Fare: wait a minute... 2014-06-13T17:36:15Z Fare: there you go! 2014-06-13T17:37:28Z amuul joined #lisp 2014-06-13T17:37:28Z rszeno joined #lisp 2014-06-13T17:38:08Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-13T17:41:07Z KCL_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-13T17:43:48Z crelix quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-13T17:45:43Z jasom: Fare: rerunning benchmarks 2014-06-13T17:46:51Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-13T17:47:00Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-13T17:47:57Z jasom: Fare: about 30% longer run-time now, which is much more sane 2014-06-13T17:48:01Z jasom: (compared to my previous build script) 2014-06-13T17:48:01Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-06-13T17:49:10Z Fare: longer than what? 2014-06-13T17:49:29Z Fare: are you saying I made things worse? 2014-06-13T17:49:45Z Shinmera- joined #lisp 2014-06-13T17:50:00Z Fare: note that you need asdf 3.1.2 for a performance saving — which the latestest ecl fro git has 2014-06-13T17:50:37Z jasom: Fare: does cl-launch try to update asdf before loading systems? 2014-06-13T17:50:54Z jasom: I have 3.1.2 installed in my asdf search path, but not the latest ecl from git 2014-06-13T17:50:57Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-13T17:50:58Z Rosario quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T17:51:00Z Shinmera quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-13T17:51:04Z jasom: It is way faster than before 2014-06-13T17:51:16Z jasom: but still 30% longer than my previous way of saving an image with ecl 2014-06-13T17:51:25Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-13T17:52:18Z Fare: ok 2014-06-13T17:52:33Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-13T17:52:37Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-13T17:52:40Z Fare: when you use program-op, you can provide :no-uiop t which will be faster 2014-06-13T17:52:40Z jasom: previously it was 350% longer 2014-06-13T17:52:44Z Fare: ok 2014-06-13T17:52:51Z Fare: (if you don't use uiop) 2014-06-13T17:53:18Z jasom: I do use uiop regularly, but shouldn't that just be included in the image (not loaded when the image is started up?) 2014-06-13T17:53:44Z Fare: yes, but I don't remember what that means regarding the loading of the compiler 2014-06-13T17:55:07Z jasom: ok 2014-06-13T17:55:15Z jasom: I'll run a test that includes uiop in the image 2014-06-13T17:55:49Z Rosario quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-13T17:56:06Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-13T17:57:15Z jasom: ah, my system I was comparing it against already included uiop 2014-06-13T17:57:56Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-13T17:58:01Z Fare: so, what else is causing 30% slow down? 2014-06-13T17:58:32Z Fare: if you figure it out, I can hopefully fix it 2014-06-13T17:58:58Z jasom: Looking into it now; one difference I found was that my build was using (uiop:quit) to exit and what I passed to cl-lanuch was using (quit) to exit; I have to go for now, but will trace everything by cl-lanuch to find the difference. 2014-06-13T17:59:23Z Fare: ok 2014-06-13T17:59:25Z jasom: basically get them as close as possible and remove changes one by one until the difference goes away 2014-06-13T17:59:30Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2014-06-13T17:59:31Z Fare: I suppose you know my email address 2014-06-13T18:00:47Z Fare: my trivial cl-launch dumped ECL program takes all of half a second :-( 2014-06-13T18:01:38Z Fare: vs one hundredth or so with SBCL 2014-06-13T18:02:24Z Fare: ECL does much more memory-intensive linking at startup. 2014-06-13T18:02:44Z sheilong joined #lisp 2014-06-13T18:03:17Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-13T18:06:37Z stassats: it for some reason opens /usr/local/lib/ecl-13.5.1/help.doc 2014-06-13T18:07:17Z sohail_ joined #lisp 2014-06-13T18:07:34Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-13T18:07:36Z stassats: and it still tries hard to load asdf, am i doing something not right? 2014-06-13T18:07:51Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-06-13T18:08:32Z stassats: it also queries all the .asd files in /usr/local/lib/ecl-13.5.1/ 2014-06-13T18:08:42Z karswell joined #lisp 2014-06-13T18:09:06Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T18:09:13Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-13T18:09:22Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-13T18:09:39Z Fare: stassats, I have no idea about that help.doc 2014-06-13T18:09:49Z stassats: that's unrelated to asdf 2014-06-13T18:09:53Z Fare: querying those asd files ... is that done by (require ...) ? 2014-06-13T18:09:53Z stassats: but it takes some time 2014-06-13T18:09:59Z stassats: no idea 2014-06-13T18:10:02Z stassats: i'm stracing 2014-06-13T18:10:36Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-13T18:10:57Z sohail_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-13T18:13:43Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 2014-06-13T18:16:01Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2014-06-13T18:17:36Z zajn joined #lisp 2014-06-13T18:20:18Z foreignFunction joined #lisp 2014-06-13T18:20:36Z kobain_ joined #lisp 2014-06-13T18:20:44Z jasom: Fare: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142846#2 <-- results of benchmarking a cl-launch '(quit)' 2014-06-13T18:20:51Z Sir_herrbatka joined #lisp 2014-06-13T18:21:37Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-06-13T18:21:40Z jasom: It's good to see that sbcl is now faster than clisp for larger images 2014-06-13T18:22:07Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-13T18:22:21Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2014-06-13T18:22:58Z tinyblak quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T18:23:07Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-13T18:24:06Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-13T18:24:26Z Fare: jasom: nothing to be ashamed of, for ccl and sbcl 2014-06-13T18:24:41Z Fare: ecl... well, you pay the price of the C model. 2014-06-13T18:25:05Z Fare: I mean, of the abstraction inversion of Lisp on top of C 2014-06-13T18:25:06Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-13T18:25:10Z zajn quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-13T18:25:12Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-13T18:25:48Z bocaneri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T18:25:49Z stassats: why can't it link with asdf statically? 2014-06-13T18:27:10Z jasom: right 2014-06-13T18:27:29Z jasom: I wonder how much something like prelink would speed things up; not that much I suppose. 2014-06-13T18:27:57Z stassats: it loads asdf as a fasl now 2014-06-13T18:28:48Z Fare: it can, and it does 2014-06-13T18:29:02Z Fare: doesn't it? 2014-06-13T18:29:17Z stassats: not with cl-launch 2014-06-13T18:29:37Z Fare: not even with the latest cl-launch 4.0.5 + asdf 3.1.2 ? 2014-06-13T18:29:47Z stassats: let me check again 2014-06-13T18:29:54Z Fare: then that's a bug 2014-06-13T18:30:16Z Fare: (there was a bug indeed with cl-launch 4.0.4, that I hopefully just fixed) 2014-06-13T18:31:09Z stassats: it stats ~common-lisp/asdf/build/asdf.lisp, .local/share/common-lisp/asdf/build/asdf.lisp 2014-06-13T18:31:14Z stassats: and stops at that 2014-06-13T18:31:30Z stassats: then later it open("/usr/local/lib/ecl-13.5.1/asdf.fas" 2014-06-13T18:33:30Z nug700 joined #lisp 2014-06-13T18:34:44Z jasom: for non-trivial programs, ccl and sbcl are similar to python 2014-06-13T18:34:46Z jasom: in startuptime 2014-06-13T18:35:05Z High-Q-Brah is now known as BinaryMcAwesome 2014-06-13T18:35:16Z stassats: the resulting file is 1.2M, but it still opens asdf.fas 2014-06-13T18:35:49Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-13T18:35:57Z kslt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T18:36:43Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-13T18:38:39Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2014-06-13T18:38:41Z jasom: sorry, I dropped a zero; lanuching a non-trivial lisp image is nearly an order of magnitude faster than "python -c 'import beets; import sys; sys.exit()'" and similar to launching python with an empty command (python -c '') 2014-06-13T18:40:06Z nha joined #lisp 2014-06-13T18:40:13Z jasom: (both tests with warm cache) 2014-06-13T18:40:50Z kslt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T18:41:04Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T18:41:17Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-13T18:43:04Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2014-06-13T18:45:56Z Rosario quit (Remote host closed the connection) 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http://shinmera.tymoon.eu/public/screenshot-2014.06.13-21:10:30.png 2014-06-13T19:13:36Z heddwch: Yum, salsa 2014-06-13T19:15:16Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T19:15:45Z Alfr joined #lisp 2014-06-13T19:15:48Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-13T19:16:36Z giulio quit 2014-06-13T19:17:18Z Rosario quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T19:17:23Z innertracks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T19:17:45Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-13T19:21:24Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-06-13T19:22:11Z Rosario quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-13T19:26:08Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-13T19:26:08Z Rosario quit (Changing host) 2014-06-13T19:26:08Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-13T19:27:07Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-13T19:31:06Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T19:31:38Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-13T19:33:19Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-13T19:35:27Z _JokerDoom joined #lisp 2014-06-13T19:36:12Z 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seconds) 2014-06-13T20:03:44Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-06-13T20:05:29Z arenz joined #lisp 2014-06-13T20:05:46Z jaimef quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-13T20:06:30Z jasom: Shinmera: that's a Cayenne, not a Jalepeño 2014-06-13T20:07:16Z heddwch: Jalapeños turn red when they're ripe, they just usually get picked before that 2014-06-13T20:08:28Z Shinmera: Google image search betrayed me! 2014-06-13T20:08:43Z Shinmera: Well, I guess I'll have to find a proper free-to use image then 2014-06-13T20:08:57Z jasom: just call it a chili and be done iwth 2014-06-13T20:09:07Z Shinmera: stassats wanted a jalapeno though 2014-06-13T20:09:52Z jasom: Shinmera: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jalape%C3%B1o#mediaviewer/File:JalapenoPeppers.JPG <-- public domain 2014-06-13T20:10:10Z Shinmera: jasom: that isn't so easy to turn into a good texture brush though 2014-06-13T20:10:46Z rpg: Is there a good cffi-grovel tutorial example somewhere? 2014-06-13T20:11:19Z jaimef joined #lisp 2014-06-13T20:11:52Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T20:11:53Z oGMo: what are you using it for? 2014-06-13T20:15:59Z foreignFunction quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-13T20:17:47Z Rosario quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T20:18:13Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-13T20:19:28Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-13T20:22:39Z Rosario quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-13T20:22:49Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-13T20:23:00Z c3w joined #lisp 2014-06-13T20:25:16Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-13T20:26:24Z jamesf joined #lisp 2014-06-13T20:30:10Z jasom: is there a way to restart the emacs side of slime? I restarted my inferior lisp and now the completion hints are all messed up 2014-06-13T20:36:06Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2014-06-13T20:36:56Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-13T20:37:19Z stassats: i don't see how that could happen 2014-06-13T20:37:34Z ChibaPet: That link to the Lisp Machine article was fascinating. 2014-06-13T20:37:38Z ChibaPet: Thanks. 2014-06-13T20:39:44Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-13T20:43:30Z lukego quit (Quit: lukego) 2014-06-13T20:45:22Z lukego joined #lisp 2014-06-13T20:45:34Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-06-13T20:46:05Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-13T20:50:11Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-13T20:50:47Z dickle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T20:52:03Z meiji11` joined #lisp 2014-06-13T20:54:25Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-13T20:54:25Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-06-13T20:54:25Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-13T20:55:02Z lukego quit (Quit: lukego) 2014-06-13T20:55:18Z c3w quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T20:56:31Z ggole quit 2014-06-13T20:57:00Z fantazo joined #lisp 2014-06-13T20:58:00Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-13T20:58:29Z aftershave quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-13T20:59:06Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-13T21:00:58Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2014-06-13T21:02:38Z jasom: Is there a better way to get an interned symbol from lisp to a C function and back to a lisp callback than just a string for the name and package? 2014-06-13T21:02:49Z jasom: (using cffi) 2014-06-13T21:03:29Z kslt1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-13T21:04:24Z duggiefresh quit 2014-06-13T21:04:48Z doomlord_1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-13T21:05:12Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-13T21:08:06Z Shinmera quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-13T21:08:26Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-13T21:08:27Z Fare joined #lisp 2014-06-13T21:08:36Z therik joined #lisp 2014-06-13T21:09:55Z therik quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-13T21:13:42Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-13T21:15:00Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-13T21:15:21Z FracV quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T21:16:30Z ltbarcly quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-13T21:17:03Z zenyfish: has anyone tried using lisp flavored erlang or joxa?if yes how compatible are they with common lisp? 2014-06-13T21:17:57Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-06-13T21:21:18Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-13T21:23:16Z dbushenko quit (Quit: Ухожу я от вас (xchat 2.4.5 или старше)) 2014-06-13T21:24:34Z fragamus joined #lisp 2014-06-13T21:24:51Z sellout: zenyfish: I haven’t heard of the latter, but I don’t think the former is meant to be at all like CL. It’s just sexpr for erlang, no? 2014-06-13T21:25:01Z jasom: zenyfish: a quick look at joxa makes me think that they combined parts of common lisp and parts of scheme without understanding the reasons that CL and scheme have those features, thus making a whole that isn't well designed 2014-06-13T21:25:02Z Fare: not compatible 2014-06-13T21:25:05Z Fare: dunno about joxa 2014-06-13T21:25:18Z replcated quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T21:25:23Z nialo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-13T21:25:47Z fikusz_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-13T21:26:16Z jasom: cl-style macros using erlang atom's as symbols is just asking for bugs imo 2014-06-13T21:26:36Z Fare: what's wrong with erlang atoms? 2014-06-13T21:26:47Z jasom: Fare: nothing, if you have a hygenic macro system 2014-06-13T21:26:52Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-13T21:26:56Z Fare: what about gensym? 2014-06-13T21:27:04Z jasom: Fare: doesn't solve the flet problem 2014-06-13T21:27:20Z Fare: what's the flet problem? 2014-06-13T21:27:22Z jasom: packages solve the flet problem for a lot of the practical cases 2014-06-13T21:27:41Z jasom: (flet ((some-function)) (macro-that-emits-call-to-some-function)) 2014-06-13T21:27:55Z Fare: shadowing global functions? 2014-06-13T21:27:58Z jasom: right 2014-06-13T21:28:21Z Fare: s/global/functions used by the macro expansion/ 2014-06-13T21:28:48Z jasom: Fare: it comes up a lot more in a lisp-1 (since every let is an flet) 2014-06-13T21:29:00Z Fare: well, you can gensym a global symbol that won't be shadowed. 2014-06-13T21:29:31Z jasom: Fare: right, but consider a package that defun's an unexported symbol; that package can have macros which emit calls to that defun with relative impunity 2014-06-13T21:29:52Z jasom: but if you want to change the behavior on purpose you can still flet it with an internal::designator 2014-06-13T21:30:53Z anthracite joined #lisp 2014-06-13T21:32:33Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-13T21:32:44Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-13T21:33:13Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-13T21:33:34Z jasom: This is why the lack scheme style macros in CL is not much of an issue (and why the scheme folks put so much effort into getting hygenic macros right): the difference in how symbols are treated 2014-06-13T21:33:48Z Fare: so it's not so much lisp-1 ness than lack of namespaces. Clojure seems to also have a namespace system like CL, and is lisp-1 like scheme, but does without hygiene with gensyms. 2014-06-13T21:34:09Z Fare: and its namespaces avoid this kind of capture 2014-06-13T21:34:13Z jasom: Fare: Right 2014-06-13T21:34:27Z jasom: it has to be the right kind of namespaces though 2014-06-13T21:35:17Z jasom: lisp-1 just makes it easier to run into the problem (since all bindings affect the function namespace) 2014-06-13T21:36:12Z jasom: packages+gensym is the CL solution to hygenic macros. Without namespaced symbols, scheme needed to do something fancier 2014-06-13T21:37:48Z gcv joined #lisp 2014-06-13T21:38:07Z Shinmera quit (Quit: brb) 2014-06-13T21:40:01Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-13T21:40:33Z anthracite quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T21:40:53Z anthracite joined #lisp 2014-06-13T21:40:55Z gcv quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-13T21:42:07Z zenyfish: what should i read/understand/know "after reading PCL" to understand this talk between jasom and Fare? 2014-06-13T21:42:51Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2014-06-13T21:42:57Z Bike: some of pitman's stuff, maybe 2014-06-13T21:43:24Z zenyfish googles pitman 2014-06-13T21:43:43Z heddwch waits for him to get pitman arms 2014-06-13T21:45:09Z zenyfish: i also thought that i would never understand it :) 2014-06-13T21:46:03Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-13T21:46:48Z jiteboxr quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-13T21:47:01Z Fare: zenyfish: there's a bibliography about macros on readscheme.org 2014-06-13T21:48:41Z jasom: I actually figured all this stuff out after reading a flamewar about "Is scheme a lisp" on c.l.l 2014-06-13T21:48:58Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-13T21:49:00Z jasom: someone went off on a useful tangent involving macros 2014-06-13T21:49:02Z zenyfish: what is cll?thank you Fare 2014-06-13T21:49:12Z jasom: zenyfish: comp.lang.lisp newsgroup 2014-06-13T21:49:23Z jasom: zenyfish: not the worlds best signal-to-noise ratio 2014-06-13T21:49:32Z Bike: is that WJ person still around? 2014-06-13T21:50:11Z jasom: zenyfish: to learn more about what you can do with macros, you may want to read something like "On Lisp" by pg, which is available online. Note that just because you *can* do something doesn't mean you *should* and that applies to many of the examples in that book. 2014-06-13T21:50:54Z jasom: zenyfish: also see this for some comments on another book by the same author: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html 2014-06-13T21:51:11Z zenyfish: jasom: it is on my list after PCL 2014-06-13T21:51:16Z zenyfish: G 2014-06-13T21:51:23Z jasom: yeah, get through PCL first. 2014-06-13T21:51:45Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-13T21:51:50Z jasom: Also, once you are comfortable using lisp to get things done, you may want to read parts of the hyperspec to see the specifics for how they work. 2014-06-13T21:52:04Z ThePhoeron quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-13T21:52:13Z diginet: Paul Graham does the lisp community a ton of harm by making it a point of to be a living caricature of everything people claim lispers are 2014-06-13T21:52:19Z jasom: It's easily the most accessible language standard I have ever read. (I never recommend people read entire chapters of the C standard, for example) 2014-06-13T21:52:33Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-13T21:52:37Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 2014-06-13T21:52:40Z diginet: also he's a blowhard and has a gigantic ego 2014-06-13T21:53:59Z jasom: diginet: non of which has any bearing on the technical qualities of On Lisp 2014-06-13T21:54:12Z zenyfish: ignore that G.thank you jasom 2014-06-13T21:54:13Z djr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-13T21:55:44Z drmeiste_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T21:56:09Z fikusz joined #lisp 2014-06-13T21:56:21Z jasom: I've never read PAIP (though it's what my dad used to learn lisp IIRC) does it cover macrology at all? 2014-06-13T21:56:42Z diginet: jasom: I found all the hyperbole to be extremely distracting 2014-06-13T21:56:44Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2014-06-13T21:56:45Z Bike: mostly just to do things. doesn't really have much in the way of uh "theory" 2014-06-13T21:57:01Z Bike: just the basic, you know, use gensyms 2014-06-13T21:57:47Z Bike: oh, it also defines a basic macroexpander for scheme 2014-06-13T21:58:04Z nydel: diginet: lots of wankers create useful things sometimes, i suppose :) 2014-06-13T21:58:04Z Xach: jasom: it is a good book in general. 2014-06-13T21:58:21Z diginet: nydel: true 2014-06-13T21:58:29Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-06-13T21:58:31Z jasom: Xach: I've been told that by several people whoose opinions I trust; we are specifically discussing macrology though. 2014-06-13T21:58:34Z _schulte_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-13T21:58:47Z diginet: I also find his usage of the word "hacker" annoying 2014-06-13T21:58:51Z Bike: i don't /think/ the macroexpander even deals with environments, though 2014-06-13T21:59:03Z diginet: "Arc should be hackable" it's unclear to me what exactly that is supposed to mean 2014-06-13T21:59:18Z Bike: diginet i don't like the guy either but you're just ranting irrelevantly 2014-06-13T22:01:35Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:05:56Z juanlas joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:08:30Z Denommus: diginet: for me, Common Lisp is a hackable language, since you can change mostly everything about it 2014-06-13T22:08:41Z otwieracz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-13T22:08:46Z devon joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:09:17Z Fare: Denommus, less hackable than Racket, say. 2014-06-13T22:09:24Z Fare: or factor 2014-06-13T22:09:40Z Denommus: Fare: indeed 2014-06-13T22:09:43Z Fare: but more "standard", whatever that means. 2014-06-13T22:09:45Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-13T22:10:26Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-13T22:10:42Z otwieracz joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:11:02Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:11:06Z Denommus: I wonder if it's possible to create a systems language on top of Racket, or if the runtime is just too built-in 2014-06-13T22:11:34Z Guede joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:14:36Z Rosario quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T22:15:04Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:15:11Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-13T22:16:20Z diginet: Denommus: what do you mean by "systems" language? As in one that can run on "bare metal?" 2014-06-13T22:16:57Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-13T22:17:05Z Denommus: diginet: no. A language that allows deterministic resource management with a light runtime 2014-06-13T22:17:06Z Rosario quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-13T22:17:15Z Shinmera quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T22:17:25Z diginet: doesn't that necessarily preclude GC? 2014-06-13T22:17:36Z Denommus: diginet: yes 2014-06-13T22:17:44Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:18:00Z Denommus: I have never looked into Racket's runtime, though, so I didn't know the GC was required 2014-06-13T22:18:01Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:18:06Z Denommus: but it seems it is, so forget it :P 2014-06-13T22:18:12Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-13T22:18:17Z diginet: Denommus: actually, have you heard of Mercury? They've managed to use *compile-time* GC in their compiler 2014-06-13T22:18:19Z diginet: pretty amazing 2014-06-13T22:18:37Z diginet: Mercury is basically the Haskell of logic programming (i.e. a "pure" variant of Prolog) 2014-06-13T22:18:57Z Denommus: diginet: like Rust does? 2014-06-13T22:19:18Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:19:22Z j_king quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-13T22:19:28Z diginet: I dunno 2014-06-13T22:19:30Z Beetny joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:20:09Z Fade quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-13T22:20:41Z mood: The Stalin Scheme compiler does compile-time analysis to eliminate a GC, but it comes with the loss of things like EVAL 2014-06-13T22:20:49Z diginet: yeah 2014-06-13T22:20:57Z jasom: diginet: no it doesn't preclude GC 2014-06-13T22:20:57Z Shinmera quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T22:21:23Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:21:51Z jasom: deterministic GCs are a pain-in-the-ass to get right, and performance suffers, but it's not impossible. 2014-06-13T22:23:01Z Denommus: jasom: a linear/affine type system is more practical and have no performance issue, although it does make the language harder to program in 2014-06-13T22:23:25Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:23:28Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:23:47Z Joreji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T22:23:58Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:24:15Z jasom: Denommus: A lot of useful algorithms are not obviously representable in an affine type system 2014-06-13T22:24:22Z jasom: which is why rust has GC types 2014-06-13T22:25:24Z FracV joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:25:28Z devon: Hi all 2014-06-13T22:25:30Z devon: Slime loses "Cannot save core with multiple threads running." but bare SBCL wins, any ideas? (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "/tmp/test" :toplevel #'(lambda () (print "Hello")) :executable t :save-runtime-options t) 2014-06-13T22:25:32Z Denommus: jasom: it's actually why Rust has unsafe blocks, Rc and Weak. Nevertheless, affine type systems also make some algorithms more expressible, like the semantics for sending a resource from a thread to another 2014-06-13T22:25:45Z Denommus: jasom: so it's really a trade-off 2014-06-13T22:25:53Z Denommus: jasom: for a system language, an useful trade-off 2014-06-13T22:26:05Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-13T22:26:35Z Denommus: devon: can't you connect to it with bare SBCL using swank and save the image through there? 2014-06-13T22:26:39Z jasom: Denommus: I wish it were easier to swap out GCs in lisp implementations (though I understand the technical reasons why it isn't) as I'd like to play with a deterministic gc in a non-toy language 2014-06-13T22:26:54Z jasom: devon: slime starts a thread by default 2014-06-13T22:27:00Z nialo joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:27:39Z Denommus: jasom: in Racket it is possible, maybe you could try there? 2014-06-13T22:28:26Z Denommus: oh, I have forgotten that slimes starts a thread 2014-06-13T22:28:56Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-13T22:29:16Z jasom: you can set swank:*communication-style* to :fd-handler before connecting 2014-06-13T22:29:47Z segv- quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-13T22:30:08Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:30:32Z AdmiralBumbleBee quit (Quit: AdmiralBumbleBee) 2014-06-13T22:32:23Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:34:03Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-13T22:34:08Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:35:41Z Sgeo joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:36:50Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 2014-06-13T22:37:11Z jasom: devon: If you're going to be saving images, I can recommend cl-launch ( http://cliki.net/cl-launch ) which makes it easy to "load system X and dump image" from the command line 2014-06-13T22:37:39Z jasom: (It does about a half-dozen other cool things to as a bonus) 2014-06-13T22:38:03Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-13T22:38:55Z tesuji joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:39:32Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:40:43Z moore33 joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:42:03Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-13T22:43:19Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:43:24Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T22:44:13Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:47:31Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:49:46Z fortitude quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-13T22:50:48Z ThePhoeron joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:51:02Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-13T22:53:34Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:54:56Z Faed joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:55:30Z Athlon3d joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:55:53Z jasom: Fare: cl-launch -f - gives me Failed to find the TRUENAME of -: No such file or directory 2014-06-13T22:57:37Z Athlon3d quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-13T22:58:21Z Athlon3d joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:58:34Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-13T22:58:46Z Fare: oh 2014-06-13T22:59:48Z stassats: is cl-launch really written as a code between here-documents? i can't make heads or tails out of it 2014-06-13T22:59:58Z jasom: stassats: launcher.lisp 2014-06-13T23:00:10Z Fare: stassats: it's bilingual 2014-06-13T23:00:13Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T23:00:31Z Fare: you could as well say it's a shell script between #| |# 2014-06-13T23:00:49Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T23:00:50Z Fare: jasom: that's obviously a bug 2014-06-13T23:01:55Z zenyfish` joined #lisp 2014-06-13T23:02:31Z Fare: it must have worked once 2014-06-13T23:04:21Z zenyfish quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-13T23:04:30Z Fare: looks like it's the casualty of the cl-launch 4 refactoring of -f processing 2014-06-13T23:05:28Z Fare: maybe the -u option doesn't make much sense anymore, either 2014-06-13T23:05:54Z Fare: I'm not sure anyone ever used -u in anger, anyway 2014-06-13T23:06:29Z Athlon3d quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )) 2014-06-13T23:06:41Z Fare: it was a cool hack, but not very useful — and happily superseded by #!/usr/bin/cl 2014-06-13T23:06:43Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-13T23:07:39Z Athlon3d joined #lisp 2014-06-13T23:08:48Z froggey joined #lisp 2014-06-13T23:09:37Z drmeiste_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-13T23:09:54Z jasom: Fare: anyway I hacked something in that works for all but ecl 2014-06-13T23:10:08Z jasom: just in build-and-load 2014-06-13T23:12:04Z Fare: bad boy 2014-06-13T23:12:59Z jasom: well it's good enough for me for now, so no rush. Let me know if you plan on eliminating that feature though. 2014-06-13T23:13:07Z jasom: (rather than fixing it) 2014-06-13T23:14:14Z zenyfish` left #lisp 2014-06-13T23:15:43Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-13T23:16:27Z tinyblak quit 2014-06-13T23:17:23Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-13T23:17:39Z jchochli_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T23:17:51Z Fare: my head hurts, thinking about all that 2014-06-13T23:18:02Z Fare: I want to remove --update 2014-06-13T23:18:36Z Fare: I'm surprised it didn't blow out in my tests already 2014-06-13T23:20:18Z tesuji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-13T23:20:41Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2014-06-13T23:20:51Z tesuji joined #lisp 2014-06-13T23:21:32Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-13T23:22:24Z JuniorRoy joined #lisp 2014-06-13T23:26:12Z Guede left #lisp 2014-06-13T23:29:27Z nha_ joined #lisp 2014-06-13T23:29:29Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-06-13T23:31:05Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-13T23:32:10Z nha quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-13T23:34:07Z tesuji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-13T23:40:07Z Fare: my head hurts. 2014-06-13T23:40:22Z Fare: There was this system to handle relative vs absolute pathnames 2014-06-13T23:40:52Z Fare: where absolute implies a promise that "this file will stay here" whereas relative meant "please embed this file in the script". 2014-06-13T23:40:53Z Fare: Sigh. 2014-06-13T23:41:54Z Fare: and this is broken by the new buildapp-like handling of --file as --load 2014-06-13T23:42:40Z Fare: so many subtle interactions between flags. 2014-06-13T23:44:03Z moore33 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-13T23:45:49Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-13T23:46:21Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-13T23:47:00Z jasom: I just put in at (or pathname string) (if (And (stringp (second x)) (string= (second x) "-")) (load* *standard-input*) (load-file (second x))) 2014-06-13T23:47:02Z juiko joined #lisp 2014-06-13T23:47:08Z jasom: that may not be robust enough though 2014-06-13T23:47:46Z stassats: (And (stringp (second x)) (string= (second x) "-")) => (equal (second x) "-") 2014-06-13T23:47:50Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-06-13T23:49:13Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-13T23:52:09Z zimri-lim joined #lisp 2014-06-13T23:52:47Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-13T23:55:07Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-13T23:55:07Z JuniorRoy quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-13T23:56:52Z Guest31522 joined #lisp 2014-06-13T23:57:09Z ltbarcly quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-13T23:58:22Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2014-06-13T23:58:44Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: conversation disconnected because everything died) 2014-06-13T23:58:56Z jasom: Anyway: http://nbviewer.ipython.org/gist/jasom/ca54da808a7a99e3a444 2014-06-14T00:00:53Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-14T00:06:41Z Fare: I could try a bastard version: only one non-absolute file and/or instance of - is allowed, and the the old behavior happens, except it's properly interlaced with other behaviors instead of happening in fixed order. 2014-06-14T00:06:47Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-14T00:06:50Z Fare: my head hurts thinking of it 2014-06-14T00:07:05Z Fare: but that's the "right thing" 2014-06-14T00:07:12Z Fare: or of course, first rewrite cl-launch in CL 2014-06-14T00:07:33Z Fare: jasom: would you be interested in taking over cl-launch ? 2014-06-14T00:07:46Z jasom: Fare: if only I had the time consistently 2014-06-14T00:07:51Z jasom: perhaps, let me think about it 2014-06-14T00:07:51Z Rosario quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-14T00:07:52Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-14T00:08:23Z jasom: I tend to have bursts of free time, followed by a month or more of no free-time 2014-06-14T00:08:26Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-14T00:08:51Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-14T00:10:23Z nha_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-14T00:12:38Z Fare: cl-launch can be detrimental to your mental health, yet, when it all works in the end, strangely satisfying. 2014-06-14T00:13:03Z Rosario quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-14T00:15:43Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-14T00:16:53Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-06-14T00:18:15Z Phaed joined #lisp 2014-06-14T00:18:31Z Shinmera quit (Quit: Zzzz) 2014-06-14T00:18:33Z aoh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-14T00:21:50Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-06-14T00:22:17Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-14T00:22:46Z pspace joined #lisp 2014-06-14T00:23:32Z kslt1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-14T00:24:06Z Oberon_Kidnapped joined #lisp 2014-06-14T00:26:06Z Oberon4278 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-14T00:26:20Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-14T00:27:08Z Oberon4278 joined #lisp 2014-06-14T00:28:35Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-14T00:28:48Z Oberon_Kidnapped quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-14T00:31:04Z lukego joined #lisp 2014-06-14T00:31:41Z Oberon4278 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-14T00:31:56Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-14T00:36:33Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-14T00:48:32Z erikc joined #lisp 2014-06-14T00:53:56Z chu joined #lisp 2014-06-14T00:54:27Z Fade joined #lisp 2014-06-14T00:56:01Z juiko quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-14T00:59:47Z jebes joined #lisp 2014-06-14T01:02:02Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-14T01:07:30Z ThePhoeron quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-14T01:07:42Z lukego quit (Quit: lukego) 2014-06-14T01:09:13Z ThePhoeron joined #lisp 2014-06-14T01:12:32Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-14T01:13:10Z ehaliewicz joined #lisp 2014-06-14T01:14:34Z gigetoo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-14T01:16:15Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2014-06-14T01:16:52Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-14T01:16:57Z anthracite quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-14T01:17:16Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2014-06-14T01:18:43Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-14T01:22:38Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-06-14T01:24:51Z fragamus quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-14T01:26:57Z Fade left #lisp 2014-06-14T01:27:23Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-14T01:28:56Z Longlius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-14T01:28:58Z meiji11` quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-14T01:30:51Z Longlius joined #lisp 2014-06-14T01:33:58Z kobain_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-14T01:36:43Z kobain_ joined #lisp 2014-06-14T01:36:44Z kobain_ quit (Changing host) 2014-06-14T01:36:44Z kobain_ joined #lisp 2014-06-14T01:38:22Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-06-14T01:39:12Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-06-14T01:42:47Z TDog quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-14T01:45:40Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-14T01:50:32Z stassats quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-14T01:52:24Z Rosario quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-14T01:52:51Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-14T01:57:04Z Rosario quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-14T01:58:33Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-14T01:58:44Z nialo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-14T01:59:23Z Fare: or should I distinguish between --load that would always load and --file that would always include the file in the output? 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2014-06-14T04:17:53Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-14T04:19:40Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-06-14T04:20:04Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-14T04:21:31Z nydel: hmm i don't think it's simply aesthetic but i can't quite recall 2014-06-14T04:21:32Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-14T04:22:01Z brian joined #lisp 2014-06-14T04:22:10Z fukt quit (Quit: IRCGate CGI:IRC User (Ping timeout)) 2014-06-14T04:22:10Z beach joined #lisp 2014-06-14T04:22:24Z MjrTom: seems like there's several alternatives for using lisp with Eclipse; anybodies here have constructive opinions on which is best or which are bad? 2014-06-14T04:22:25Z brian is now known as Guest76861 2014-06-14T04:23:12Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2014-06-14T04:23:20Z Guest76861: good mornin 2014-06-14T04:24:15Z Guest76861: I couldnt clisp package for cygwin, what are the altenatives for lisp in windows? 2014-06-14T04:25:06Z nydel: MjrTom: i highly recommend using slime, which is a lisp with emacs 2014-06-14T04:25:08Z beach: Guest76861: I hear LispWorks on Windows is good. But I haven't tried it myself. 2014-06-14T04:25:54Z MjrTom: I dont really have any use for emacs, but thank you for mentioning that 2014-06-14T04:26:03Z Guest76861: MjrTom: slime seems hard to install also dont know emacs, i am very new to common lisp 2014-06-14T04:26:31Z beach: MjrTom: If you are going to use Common Lisp, you do have a use for Emacs. 2014-06-14T04:26:40Z MjrTom: I dont really see any relationship between slime and eclipse; maybe Im just missing it, but I still don't have any use for emacs 2014-06-14T04:27:29Z nydel: i thought you said alternative to eclipse 2014-06-14T04:27:38Z zwer: slime is a an emacs CL mode. emacs+slime is probably the best free environment for CL you can get. there's an alternative for vim too, but I don't know how well it works 2014-06-14T04:27:40Z theos: if you are a programmer, learning emacs is a good investment 2014-06-14T04:27:40Z nydel: do you mean instead a different way to use lisp inside of eclipse 2014-06-14T04:28:02Z qiemem joined #lisp 2014-06-14T04:28:03Z MjrTom: sorry if I wrote it oddly. Of the alternatives for eclipse, I'm soliciting constructive opinions about which is best or which are worst 2014-06-14T04:28:05Z Guest76861: nydel: no, i wasnt mentioning eclipse 2014-06-14T04:28:05Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-14T04:28:06Z p_l: MjrTom: While the interface SLIME uses (SWANK) is sometimes used by other IDEs, SLIME remains an emacs program. There's slimv for ViM, although I have no idea of its status 2014-06-14T04:28:35Z MjrTom: yeah I have even less use for VIM, and I see even less relationship to eclipse for that 2014-06-14T04:28:52Z theos: just go for emacs then 2014-06-14T04:29:01Z nydel: MjrTom: what is your operating system? 2014-06-14T04:29:05Z MjrTom: windows 2014-06-14T04:29:16Z nydel: by choice? 2014-06-14T04:29:27Z theos: by default more likely 2014-06-14T04:29:30Z nydel: if so i think that allegro has a decent outfit for common lisp 2014-06-14T04:29:33Z MjrTom: windwos is great 2014-06-14T04:29:34Z nydel: in windows 2014-06-14T04:29:46Z MjrTom: no, I won't be using emacs. Eclipse is great. Anybody have any constructive opinions about lisp with eclipse? 2014-06-14T04:29:48Z nydel: i didn't have a point, i was asking whether it was by choice, that's all bud 2014-06-14T04:30:26Z nydel: well, which lisp plugin are you using with your eclipse ide? 2014-06-14T04:30:30Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-14T04:30:34Z zwer: MjrTom the way you phrased your question it seemed like you wanted an alternative to eclipse.. I don't know anything about using eclipse 2014-06-14T04:30:40Z zwer: with CL 2014-06-14T04:30:49Z MjrTom: well, right now I'm trying to get constructive opinions about which lisp plugin to use with my eclipse ide 2014-06-14T04:30:59Z theos: i think he was asking for alternative lisp plugins for eclipse 2014-06-14T04:31:05Z MjrTom: sorry if my phrasing was misleading zwer 2014-06-14T04:31:26Z nydel: i doubt many of us do, zwer.. i can't remember cl working well on an open operating system in eclipse ide for as many as 5 or more years 2014-06-14T04:31:58Z beach: MjrTom: I think you will be very disappointed with Lisp if you try to use it with Eclipse, so I recommend you use a different language. 2014-06-14T04:32:04Z nydel: MjrTom: i know a little about them from trying like hell to port them to not-unix by hand 2014-06-14T04:32:18Z nydel: i absolutely agree with beach 2014-06-14T04:32:36Z Guest76861: Eclipse could be most terrible choice as Lisp environment. 2014-06-14T04:32:47Z nydel: MjrTom: what is your area of research / devel? 2014-06-14T04:32:51Z MjrTom: well, if it won't work well with Eclipse, then I can use a text editor of my choice 2014-06-14T04:32:56Z nydel: or what do you intend to make 2014-06-14T04:33:01Z theos: http://www.cliki.net/Dandelion 2014-06-14T04:33:17Z MjrTom: I just want to look at SHRLDU... see what made it tick and whatnot 2014-06-14T04:33:21Z nydel: emacs should be that editor, MjrTom ... may i ask what you seem to have against emacs? 2014-06-14T04:34:05Z MjrTom: yes there is dandelion and cusp and apparently another one... I was hoping to get opinions about some one of them being the best, and the other two being horrible, or not working, or w/e... but its sounding like maybe none of them work 2014-06-14T04:34:08Z p_l: MjrTom: there was "cusp" for eclipse, but I have no idea whether it is maintained anymore or not 2014-06-14T04:34:09Z nydel: slime mode in emacs with sbcl is the best environment for lisp i can imagine 2014-06-14T04:34:13Z zwer: MjrTom you can, but unfortunately you won't get the same benefits from CL as you would if you used slime. unfortunately, there's no good free alternative that I am aware of (apart from slimv for vim) 2014-06-14T04:34:25Z theos: i think emacs is new for him so he is reluctant to learn it 2014-06-14T04:34:35Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-14T04:34:36Z MjrTom: lol 2014-06-14T04:34:44Z nydel: theos: that is often the case 2014-06-14T04:34:47Z beach: MjrTom: Do you already know Common Lisp? 2014-06-14T04:34:52Z nydel: any truth to that, MjrTom ? 2014-06-14T04:35:11Z p_l: MjrTom: the big problem is that majority of CL users don't use Eclipse, nor want to use Eclipse. Occassional fans of Eclipse try to bring a working plugin into it... but they are rare 2014-06-14T04:35:15Z MjrTom: no nydel, it is a delusion. 2014-06-14T04:35:22Z phadthai: a problem with "any editor" is that interactive development will be tedious or impossible... in which case a static language might be less time consuming... 2014-06-14T04:35:29Z p_l: let's not go into personal trips, ok? 2014-06-14T04:35:30Z nydel: what is a delusion? 2014-06-14T04:35:50Z MjrTom: what were you asking about? 2014-06-14T04:36:25Z zwer: you can use CL as python.. text editor of your choice on the left and shell with python running on the right.. and it is good enough for learning CL. but interactive development is what CL shines at, and you don't get much of that with this appraoch 2014-06-14T04:36:28Z nydel: well MjrTom i am thinking you must not like some particular thing about emacs. and if you could tell me which thing, there may be a fork of emacs that is suitable 2014-06-14T04:36:30Z MjrTom: well yes but SHRLDU was not written in a static language. It was written in lisp 2014-06-14T04:36:36Z zwer: shell with CL running on the right* 2014-06-14T04:36:47Z MjrTom: no thank you nydel. 2014-06-14T04:36:54Z phadthai: I don't have much experience with it, but since clojure integrates with java, and that eclipse is specialized for java, it might be another combination worth looking at 2014-06-14T04:37:05Z Guest31522 quit 2014-06-14T04:37:16Z beach: MjrTom: Do you already know Common Lisp? 2014-06-14T04:37:23Z MjrTom: no beach I do not 2014-06-14T04:37:24Z theos: phadthai thats might be one of the reasons people dont use eclipse :P 2014-06-14T04:37:51Z beach: MjrTom: I think if you are not willing to invest in learning Emacs, you certainly won't be willing to invest in learning Lisp. 2014-06-14T04:37:58Z Guest76861: nydel: Emacs is not just install and use editor, needs a huge learning curve. 2014-06-14T04:38:01Z zwer: nydel well I can understand why people who want to learn common lisp also don't want to be learning a new text editor simultaneously 2014-06-14T04:38:03Z p_l: theos: oh believe me, java is really not the reason to not use Eclipse 2014-06-14T04:38:04Z MjrTom: no beach, that is a delusion 2014-06-14T04:38:08Z nydel: frankly MjrTom it's kind of difficult to make a suggestion if you won't provide any sort of context aside from "not the one you think is good" ... y'know? just, could use some more information in order to form a helpful idea for ya. 2014-06-14T04:38:42Z theos: p_l there must be more reasons i am sure :P 2014-06-14T04:39:13Z theos: MjrTom is english your native language? 2014-06-14T04:39:14Z MjrTom: nydel, I was simply soliciting opinions about the different plugins for eclipse to use for lisp. As far as I can tell, the concensus is that none of them work. 2014-06-14T04:39:19Z nydel: zwer & Guest76861 ... i had to learn a handful of lisp before i could understand why emacs was useful 2014-06-14T04:39:20Z p_l: Guest76861: Having tried to work professionally with eclipse... it might not have a learning curve, but the moment you step off a very narrow path, or try to combine too many plugins, my experience was "Mainframe editing was easier" 2014-06-14T04:39:45Z nydel: but i went into it knowing "okay, my superiors tell me 'emacs is going to become important soon' and it's okay that i can't see it yet" 2014-06-14T04:40:03Z ustunozgur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-14T04:40:38Z p_l: MjrTom: unfortunately, not much love for Eclipse in Lisp community, tbh not much love for eclipse in the wider lisp community in general (and significant strain of aversion to eclipse exists even in java community...) 2014-06-14T04:40:43Z nydel: i think i got lucky, i had the "can't understand it yet" phase but got to skip the "don't want to try to understand it" thing that i have had with some other things 2014-06-14T04:41:14Z MjrTom: apparently so p_l 2014-06-14T04:41:23Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-14T04:41:24Z p_l: if you want to learn *a* lisp, though not Common Lisp, and use Eclipse -- Clojure with CounterClockWise plugin might work for you 2014-06-14T04:41:45Z nydel: that's a great idea p_l 2014-06-14T04:41:46Z MjrTom: do you suppose that will run SHRLDU? 2014-06-14T04:42:16Z p_l: That said, in *any* language I worked with so far, Eclipse was the worst choice, except one where there were simply no other tools, whatsoever, than an annoying JAR to plug into specific Eclipse version 2014-06-14T04:42:17Z theos: MjrTom if you are diving into lisp, i suggest you invest some time to learn basic emacs. then install quicklisp, slime and you are good to go 2014-06-14T04:42:27Z p_l: MjrTom: only if someone ported it, which I haven't heard of 2014-06-14T04:42:36Z matko quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-14T04:42:39Z p_l: Clojure is distinctly different from CL 2014-06-14T04:43:02Z nydel: it's pretty rare for people to port from one lisp to another i think 2014-06-14T04:43:05Z MjrTom: then that does not sound like a productive direction 2014-06-14T04:43:35Z nydel: is that the language parser from stanford? 2014-06-14T04:43:52Z MjrTom: http://hci.stanford.edu/winograd/shrdlu/ 2014-06-14T04:44:09Z nydel: ah yes, thanks MjrTom 2014-06-14T04:44:42Z p_l: MjrTom: unfortunately, the biggest stopping block here is Eclipse from my PoV. You don't really need much knowledge to setup and use Emacs with SLIME, most of the time, but I guess you could find a preconfigured setup somewhere. My biggest problems with Emacs on windows were "which binary to choose", though, which can be a bit annyoing 2014-06-14T04:45:34Z nydel: MjrTom what you really need if you are going to do CL off unix/not-unix, what you need is a text editor that you like, and a repl, and a way to get the two working alongside each other 2014-06-14T04:45:48Z nydel: have you tried notepad++ or i think there is a port of geany? 2014-06-14T04:46:10Z nydel: those should handle lisp syntax then you could just pass the saved files to an interpreter 2014-06-14T04:46:25Z nydel: sbcl or clisp, clisp probably i think 2014-06-14T04:46:32Z MjrTom: maybe I will need to use emacs. It took me a while to remember that emacs has always been the editor of choice for lisp... if i have to, in all practicality, I use use it. 2014-06-14T04:47:20Z MjrTom: notepad isn't too bad, but I like textpad. I haven't looked into how well textpad is thought to work with lisp (since I like eclipse and was hoping to use it) 2014-06-14T04:47:24Z nydel: MjrTom: there is http://ergoemacs.org/ which is very far from pure emacs but may be more attractive for your purposes 2014-06-14T04:47:26Z p_l: MjrTom: for basic exploration, you don't really need much more than a lisp implementation and *any* code editor, though autocompletion and the like are helpful (and automatic paren-matching is quite important) 2014-06-14T04:47:31Z theos: you just need to learn how to use emacs. get a cheat sheet and you will be fine. 2014-06-14T04:48:10Z MjrTom: I did take a look at lisp with eclipse maybe 2 years ago, but I found troubles in the plugins/toolset, so I was hoping they'd matured. Obviously with there being little to no love for eclipse in the lisp community, there has been little to no maturing of those plugins 2014-06-14T04:48:11Z nydel: it doesn't have as initially-confusing of a the-move-nell language as pure emacs 2014-06-14T04:48:37Z nydel: i don't like ergoemacs myself but i have heard of people using it successfully to transition from kate or whatever to emacs 2014-06-14T04:53:28Z djr joined #lisp 2014-06-14T04:56:00Z MjrTom: thanks for your advice guys 2014-06-14T04:56:03Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-14T04:58:04Z beach: MjrTom: Sure. Good luck! 2014-06-14T04:58:50Z ggole joined #lisp 2014-06-14T04:59:29Z _leb joined #lisp 2014-06-14T05:00:15Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-14T05:00:55Z _leb quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-14T05:01:28Z _leb joined #lisp 2014-06-14T05:03:06Z aoh joined #lisp 2014-06-14T05:04:05Z amuul quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-14T05:05:51Z beach: Let's say we want to write a cross compiler (file compiler) for CL. It seems reasonable to have the host system expand macros and such, right? 2014-06-14T05:06:27Z beach: However, there is a problem. CLHS says that (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) ...) can appear in a non-null lexical environment. 2014-06-14T05:06:38Z MjrTom`-` joined #lisp 2014-06-14T05:06:44Z MjrTom`-` quit (Changing host) 2014-06-14T05:06:44Z MjrTom`-` joined #lisp 2014-06-14T05:06:44Z MjrTom quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-14T05:06:46Z MjrTom`-` is now known as MjrTom 2014-06-14T05:07:30Z beach: But that lexical environment belongs to the target system, not the host system. So one can not simply call host EVAL to evaluate the body of the EVAL-WHEN. 2014-06-14T05:09:03Z beach: So it seems to me there is a choice to make: Impose a restriction on the cross compiler, requiring a null lexical environment when (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) ..) is use. 2014-06-14T05:09:38Z beach: Or, write a complete target evaluator to run in the host environment, just for the benefit of the cross compiler. 2014-06-14T05:09:54Z rpg quit (Quit: rpg) 2014-06-14T05:10:05Z beach: Question: Am I missing something, or is this thinking correct? 2014-06-14T05:12:13Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-14T05:12:35Z Bike: beach: well, the lexical environment in question is only syntactic - not let, just macrolet and such 2014-06-14T05:12:36Z harish_ joined #lisp 2014-06-14T05:12:39Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-14T05:12:45Z beach: Bike: Indeed. 2014-06-14T05:12:46Z Bike: not sure if that's relevant, too sleepy to think 2014-06-14T05:12:50Z Bike: guess not then 2014-06-14T05:12:53Z beach: It is relevant. 2014-06-14T05:13:50Z beach: One possibility is to reconstruct an environment for the host EVAL by wrapping the form to evaluate in a relevant number of LOCALLY, MACROLET, and SYMBOL-MACROLET. 2014-06-14T05:14:05Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-14T05:14:08Z beach: This will work (I think) if the macros don't have any side effects. 2014-06-14T05:14:19Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-14T05:14:22Z beach: (which they shouldn't have anyway). 2014-06-14T05:14:48Z Bike: this is one of those things where I think CL makes it too difficult, there should be more explicit environments and evaluation in them 2014-06-14T05:15:08Z beach: Yeah. I know what you mean. 2014-06-14T05:15:41Z Bike: and if you're only worried about cross compiling from your own system, you can add those extensions and make things easier, but maybe you're not 2014-06-14T05:15:47Z beach: It is an interesting observation though, that it is extremely hard to write a complete cross compiler for CL. 2014-06-14T05:16:35Z Bike: i've written my own macroexpander like three times, because i have no memory 2014-06-14T05:16:41Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-14T05:16:51Z ahungry joined #lisp 2014-06-14T05:17:04Z beach: Bike: Oh, for my own needs, I'll just impose restrictions. I am interested in cross compiling for bootstrapping purposes. I can just make sure that the files that the cross compiler needs to compile respect these restrictions. 2014-06-14T05:18:10Z beach: Bike: Yeah, I know what you mean. Occasionally I will write some code, and then it occurs to me that I must have written it already sometime in the past. 2014-06-14T05:18:37Z beach started loosing his memory at the age of 15. 2014-06-14T05:18:42Z beach: losing 2014-06-14T05:19:05Z Fare joined #lisp 2014-06-14T05:19:18Z Bike: i've been trying to sit down and make self-contained things like this. i have a half-written implementation of coalescence 2014-06-14T05:20:24Z beach: What does coalescence mean in this context? 2014-06-14T05:20:40Z Bike: CL compiler coalescence 2014-06-14T05:20:44Z Bike: load-time-value and stuff 2014-06-14T05:20:55Z beach: Oh, right. I see. 2014-06-14T05:20:58Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2014-06-14T05:20:59Z Bike: it's pretty complicated and mostly people don't care, but i find it a bit interesting 2014-06-14T05:21:01Z |3b|: beach: can a non-null lexical environment be top-level? 2014-06-14T05:21:11Z beach: |3b|: Yes! 2014-06-14T05:21:13Z Bike: |3b|: yeah, it's macrolet and stuff 2014-06-14T05:21:15Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-06-14T05:21:45Z beach: clhs 3.2.3.1 2014-06-14T05:21:45Z specbot: Processing of Top Level Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bca.htm 2014-06-14T05:22:06Z beach: "(Note that this implies that the lexical environment in which top level forms are processed is not necessarily the null lexical environment.)" 2014-06-14T05:22:25Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-06-14T05:22:34Z |3b|: ah 2014-06-14T05:22:49Z innertracks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-14T05:23:06Z Hydan quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-14T05:24:02Z MjrTom`-` joined #lisp 2014-06-14T05:24:02Z MjrTom quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-14T05:24:10Z MjrTom`-` is now known as MjrTom 2014-06-14T05:24:49Z beach: I thought my idea was cute though: Scan the target lexical environment, and reconstruct wrappers consisting of LOCALLY, MACROLET, and SYMBOL-MACROLET corresponding to that environment. Then call host EVAL on the wrapped form. 2014-06-14T05:25:13Z Bike: i think i actually tried that once :( 2014-06-14T05:25:30Z beach: Bike: Oh, great! That means I am not totally off. 2014-06-14T05:26:01Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2014-06-14T05:26:18Z Bike: i think i had problems since i ended up with literal function objects, like, (macrolet ((name args (apply ,an-actual-function ...))) ...) 2014-06-14T05:27:20Z beach: Hmm, yeah I can see that there would be a number of restrictions even for this method. 2014-06-14T05:27:53Z beach: For that reason, I will not attempt to implement it. 2014-06-14T05:29:38Z beach: Maybe the only solution that will work is to have a complete interpreter for the target running in the host. 2014-06-14T05:29:46Z Bike: sad. 2014-06-14T05:29:59Z beach: It might not be that hard though. 2014-06-14T05:30:34Z beach: I compile to AST then to MIR, and it is not that hard to write an interpreter for the MIR. 2014-06-14T05:31:10Z beach: MIR = Medium-level Intermediate Representation as Muchnick suggests. 2014-06-14T05:31:30Z Bike: thankfully "IR" is fairly unambiguous in this context 2014-06-14T05:31:51Z beach: Indeed. 2014-06-14T05:35:13Z Krystof quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-14T05:37:50Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-06-14T05:37:51Z KCL_ joined #lisp 2014-06-14T05:41:17Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-14T05:41:27Z _leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-14T05:41:50Z DrFukt joined #lisp 2014-06-14T05:42:22Z DrFukt quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-14T05:42:28Z DrFuktt joined #lisp 2014-06-14T05:42:46Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-06-14T05:42:46Z DrFuktt quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-14T05:45:23Z lukego joined #lisp 2014-06-14T05:47:44Z lukego quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-14T05:47:54Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-06-14T05:51:05Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-14T05:51:14Z Oberon4278 quit 2014-06-14T05:52:48Z beach: Hmm, now that I think about it, perhaps the best solution is to have a complete interpreter for the target system running in the host. It might simplify some other things as well. 2014-06-14T05:55:49Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-14T05:56:50Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-14T05:56:59Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-14T05:57:12Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-06-14T05:58:36Z beach: If I interpret MIR, then most of the code for the interpreter will be the same as the code running in the target, so there is not much extra work. 2014-06-14T05:59:33Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-14T06:00:13Z beach ponders. 2014-06-14T06:01:17Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-14T06:02:54Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-06-14T06:03:57Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2014-06-14T06:05:36Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-06-14T06:08:04Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-14T06:09:22Z KCL_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-14T06:09:29Z phax left #lisp 2014-06-14T06:09:47Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-14T06:15:16Z huza joined #lisp 2014-06-14T06:17:43Z leb joined #lisp 2014-06-14T06:18:33Z Krystof joined #lisp 2014-06-14T06:18:38Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2014-06-14T06:20:19Z n0n0 joined #lisp 2014-06-14T06:27:42Z mhd_ quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-14T06:28:45Z alusion joined #lisp 2014-06-14T06:29:04Z prxq joined #lisp 2014-06-14T06:35:39Z Guest76861 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-06-14T06:38:31Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-14T06:39:20Z anthracite joined #lisp 2014-06-14T06:39:41Z noncom quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-06-14T06:40:12Z Fare: ok, so fixing -f - 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That is a guarantee for any manager of a software project that an implementation will always be available, even though some supplier may disappear. 2014-06-14T09:06:07Z beach: navid: A manager of a software project who chooses a language with a single implementation has not done his or her job with respect to the risk analysis. 2014-06-14T09:06:34Z ggole joined #lisp 2014-06-14T09:07:51Z vaporatorius is now known as Vaporatorius 2014-06-14T09:07:53Z beach: navid: In fact, in most circumstances, a software manager who knows about risk analysis should always choose a language with a standard that is independent of the suppliers of implementations. 2014-06-14T09:07:57Z oleo: morning 2014-06-14T09:08:03Z beach: Hello oleo! 2014-06-14T09:08:10Z oleo: heya beach! 2014-06-14T09:08:21Z navid: beach: thank you for explaination ! 2014-06-14T09:08:25Z beach: navid: Otherwise, there is always the risk that the definition of the language will change at the whim of the supplier. 2014-06-14T09:08:34Z beach: navid: You are welcome. 2014-06-14T09:11:18Z beach: navid: Do you know C++? 2014-06-14T09:11:50Z navid: beach: a little ! 2014-06-14T09:11:53Z beach: navid: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_C%2B%2B_compilers#C.2B.2B_compilers 2014-06-14T09:12:22Z beach: navid: C++ is another language with an independent standard. 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"gd-image-create" 2014-06-14T15:49:02Z H4ns: Ralt: you're using a wrong gd version. 2014-06-14T15:49:05Z McFreely joined #lisp 2014-06-14T15:49:14Z H4ns: Ralt: are you on a very current or a very old system? 2014-06-14T15:49:15Z Ralt: but `nm /usr/local/lib/libgd.3.dylib | grep gdImageCreate` shows me _gdImageCreate :/ 2014-06-14T15:49:29Z Ralt: H4ns: I'm on OSX 2014-06-14T15:49:34Z Ralt: installed libgd through brew 2014-06-14T15:49:42Z Ralt: I guess I should compile from source? 2014-06-14T15:49:47Z Ralt: compile a recent version* 2014-06-14T15:49:47Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-06-14T15:50:03Z H4ns: Ralt: should not be necessary really, but i have not tried gd on osx in a while. 2014-06-14T15:50:08Z H4ns: Ralt: hold on. 2014-06-14T15:50:17Z Ralt: thanks for your time 2014-06-14T15:51:57Z H4ns: Ralt: i'm getting the same message, can you open a github issue? i need to run now, but i'm going to fix it. 2014-06-14T15:52:05Z zickzackv joined #lisp 2014-06-14T15:52:13Z Ralt: H4ns: great! thanks 2014-06-14T15:52:22Z H4ns: Ralt: it is not entirely unlikely that the gd shared library has not been opened at all 2014-06-14T15:52:33Z H4ns: Ralt: if you want to investigate that, it'd help. 2014-06-14T15:52:48Z Ralt: H4ns: I'll try 2014-06-14T15:52:48Z ltbarcly quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-14T15:53:15Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-14T15:53:16Z Ralt: I'm not really familiar with uffi though, so I can just tell you I'll do my best :) 2014-06-14T15:53:46Z H4ns: Ralt: it is probably really simple 2014-06-14T15:53:56Z H4ns: maybe a wrong dylib path or something in the lines of that. 2014-06-14T15:54:32Z Ralt: H4ns: I'll try that, gotta go right now. 2014-06-14T15:54:39Z H4ns: good luck 2014-06-14T15:54:42Z Ralt: thanks, cya 2014-06-14T15:58:44Z Ralt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-14T15:58:55Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-06-14T16:00:00Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-14T16:02:56Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-14T16:03:06Z McFreely 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2014-06-14T18:17:43Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-14T18:18:04Z oGMo: and yes it is strongly typed, optionally with some static typing depending on your implementation 2014-06-14T18:19:11Z stassats: "strong typing" is a weakly defined term 2014-06-14T18:19:36Z oleo: is static vs. dynamic the only distinction in that regard ? 2014-06-14T18:19:37Z oGMo: even in its weakest definition which is generally along hte lines of "has some concept of typing" CL still qualifies 2014-06-14T18:19:45Z oleo: but it has both ? 2014-06-14T18:19:57Z stassats: static vs dynamic is much more well-defined 2014-06-14T18:20:02Z oleo: ok 2014-06-14T18:23:16Z hitecnologys: There's also a thing called strict dynamic typing as opposed to static. 2014-06-14T18:23:58Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-06-14T18:24:00Z stassats: is there rigid typing? 2014-06-14T18:25:03Z hitecnologys: Sounds creepy. 2014-06-14T18:26:22Z djr joined #lisp 2014-06-14T18:27:15Z ggole: "Rigid type variables" are a thing 2014-06-14T18:28:15Z ggole: And yeah, "strong" is a pretty loaded and mostly meaningless word. "sound" is a bit better. 2014-06-14T18:28:17Z prxq: i'm surprised that scheme doesn't have something they call immaculate typing 2014-06-14T18:34:21Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-14T18:36:27Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-14T18:37:07Z Paul_McFreely quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-14T18:37:43Z Paul_McFreely joined #lisp 2014-06-14T18:39:09Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-14T18:41:49Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-14T18:43:31Z qiemem joined #lisp 2014-06-14T18:45:56Z stassats: they have "elegant" typing 2014-06-14T18:46:02Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-14T18:47:17Z pjb: strong typing is where "abc"+1 gives an error. weak typing is when it doesn't. 2014-06-14T18:47:17Z elfenixtorres quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-14T18:47:23Z pjb: C is weakly typed. 2014-06-14T18:48:02Z _leb joined #lisp 2014-06-14T18:49:39Z anthracite quit 2014-06-14T18:50:50Z hitecnologys: pjb: "abc" + 1 would give error in ANSI C, if I remember correctly. 2014-06-14T18:51:06Z hitecnologys: pjb: 'a' + 1, on the other hand, wouldn't. 2014-06-14T18:51:41Z hitecnologys: pjb: adding number to array of characters doesn't make sense. 2014-06-14T18:54:20Z Ralt joined #lisp 2014-06-14T18:54:35Z ggole: "abc" + 1 is perfectly legal C code. 2014-06-14T18:55:17Z ggole: The char array decays to a pointer, which gets converted to an int, which etc. 2014-06-14T18:56:08Z ggole: (Although C++ rules it out iirc.) 2014-06-14T18:56:35Z hitecnologys: Hmm, maybe. 2014-06-14T18:56:43Z hitecnologys: I'm too lazy to look into standard. 2014-06-14T18:57:03Z oleo is now known as Guest97079 2014-06-14T18:57:37Z Rosario quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-14T18:57:54Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-14T18:58:13Z hitecnologys: Yes, "abc" + 1 does work. 2014-06-14T18:58:18Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-14T18:58:39Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2014-06-14T18:59:14Z Guest213O3 joined #lisp 2014-06-14T18:59:22Z pjb: hitecnologys: you don't know C. 2014-06-14T18:59:46Z pjb: s/don't/didn't/ ;-) 2014-06-14T18:59:52Z ggole: (Congratulations!) 2014-06-14T19:00:12Z Guest97079 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-14T19:00:25Z Ralt: H4ns: my debugging brought me as far as this https://github.com/edicl/cl-gd/issues/7 2014-06-14T19:00:31Z tomty89 quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-14T19:00:51Z pjb: ggole: it doesn't convert to any integer. "abc"+1 is a pointer to the 'b' in "abc". 2014-06-14T19:00:52Z H4ns: Ralt: i'll have a look, thanks for the report. 2014-06-14T19:00:53Z Ralt: I can't really go further than this 2014-06-14T19:00:58Z Ralt: sorry 2014-06-14T19:01:37Z hitecnologys: pjb: I haven't really coded in it much for years so my brain is all confused. 2014-06-14T19:02:05Z ltbarcly quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-14T19:02:31Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-14T19:02:35Z ggole: pjb: right, converted to -> added to. 2014-06-14T19:02:55Z oleo__: haha 2014-06-14T19:02:57Z ggole: (Pointers are allowed to convert to int in C though.) 2014-06-14T19:04:07Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-14T19:04:51Z H4ns: Ralt: i can't reproduce the issue, though. 2014-06-14T19:05:35Z H4ns: Ralt: running sbcl 1.1.13. i'll try upgrading gd 2014-06-14T19:06:19Z Ralt: let me check my sbcl version 2014-06-14T19:06:25Z Ralt: 1.1.11 2014-06-14T19:06:30Z Ralt: shouldn't be the issue :/ 2014-06-14T19:06:33Z H4ns: no, true. 2014-06-14T19:06:44Z H4ns: let me try some things, will you be here for a bit? 2014-06-14T19:06:49Z Ralt: sure 2014-06-14T19:07:10Z oleo__ quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-06-14T19:07:20Z Ralt: the output of load-foreign-library doesn't help? 2014-06-14T19:08:21Z H4ns: well, i wonder why load-foreign-library would report missing functions. 2014-06-14T19:08:30Z H4ns: i'll try to reproduce first. 2014-06-14T19:08:57Z Ralt: wait 2014-06-14T19:09:03Z Ralt: H4ns: ... it works now 2014-06-14T19:09:10Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2014-06-14T19:09:10Z stassats: it outputs that because it was deemed useful by someone 2014-06-14T19:09:11Z Ralt: oooh I think I know why 2014-06-14T19:09:18Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-14T19:09:29Z oleo__ is now known as oleo 2014-06-14T19:09:38Z Ralt: I loaded cl-gd, and the link was missing in /usr/lib/libgd 2014-06-14T19:09:43Z stassats: whenever any library is loaded, it goes through all the forward declared foreign symbols and looks which is missing 2014-06-14T19:09:44Z Ralt: it was only in /usr/local/lib 2014-06-14T19:09:54Z Ralt: so I added the symlink 2014-06-14T19:10:02Z Ralt: but I didn't reload 'cl-gd 2014-06-14T19:10:07Z H4ns: narf: Download failed: https://bitbucket.org/libgd/gd-libgd/downloads/libgd-2.1.0.tar.gz 2014-06-14T19:10:36Z Ralt: H4ns: maybe the /usr/local/lib/ folder should be added to the list of where-to-find the lib? 2014-06-14T19:10:51Z Ralt: sorry for bothering you.. 2014-06-14T19:11:14Z H4ns: no problem. 2014-06-14T19:11:58Z H4ns: not sure about the libpath. i think this should be configured outside of the lisp, but if that is not feasible, maybe adding /usr/local/lib/ for osx would be right. 2014-06-14T19:12:10Z genkinodenki joined #lisp 2014-06-14T19:12:13Z H4ns: if you want to send a pr, feel free. please remember to close the issue if it is closed. 2014-06-14T19:12:37Z Ralt: yep, thanks. 2014-06-14T19:14:08Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-14T19:14:44Z FracV quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-14T19:14:50Z Ralt: hm 2014-06-14T19:15:38Z Ralt: H4ns: it's already there https://github.com/edicl/cl-gd/blob/master/specials.lisp#L134 2014-06-14T19:15:40Z Ralt: oh well 2014-06-14T19:15:48Z Ralt: I'll just start hacking now :P 2014-06-14T19:15:58Z H4ns: enjoy! 2014-06-14T19:16:04Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-14T19:18:15Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-14T19:21:07Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2014-06-14T19:21:12Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-06-14T19:22:25Z pspace joined #lisp 2014-06-14T19:22:34Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-06-14T19:26:45Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-14T19:26:54Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-14T19:33:38Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-14T19:37:04Z Rosario quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-14T19:37:39Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-14T19:37:45Z ustunozgur quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-14T19:38:16Z Rosario quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-14T19:38:22Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-14T19:39:37Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-14T19:40:20Z Rosario quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-14T19:41:32Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-14T19:45:13Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-14T19:46:18Z Shinmera quit (Quit: brb) 2014-06-14T19:46:20Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-06-14T19:46:59Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-14T19:48:10Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-14T19:48:48Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-14T19:54:15Z Guest213O3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-14T19:58:01Z bocaneri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-14T20:04:36Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-14T20:07:54Z wz1000 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-14T20:11:05Z Guest213O3 joined #lisp 2014-06-14T20:11:13Z Guest213O3 is now known as Guest43283 2014-06-14T20:12:53Z Paul_McFreely quit (Quit: Lingo - http://lingoirc.com) 2014-06-14T20:13:37Z KCL_ joined #lisp 2014-06-14T20:14:25Z Fare joined #lisp 2014-06-14T20:15:27Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-14T20:22:11Z nug700 joined #lisp 2014-06-14T20:22:36Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-14T20:27:03Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-14T20:27:03Z aksr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-14T20:27:10Z eni quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-14T20:30:41Z n0n0 joined #lisp 2014-06-14T20:32:06Z kslt1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-14T20:32:13Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-14T20:34:24Z fragamus joined #lisp 2014-06-14T20:35:45Z Guest43283 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-14T20:35:59Z Guest43293 joined #lisp 2014-06-14T20:38:43Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-14T20:41:25Z dbushenko quit (Quit: Ухожу я от вас (xchat 2.4.5 или старше)) 2014-06-14T20:41:49Z jrm joined #lisp 2014-06-14T20:42:55Z ggole quit 2014-06-14T20:43:41Z ufd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-14T20:46:32Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-14T20:46:47Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-14T20:47:49Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-14T20:50:10Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Is it compiled to byte-code and interpreted at runtime or are there pure native compilers out there 2014-06-14T23:00:10Z Bike: several native compilers. 2014-06-14T23:00:28Z Bike: but implementations can do either or both as they like. 2014-06-14T23:00:49Z Vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-14T23:01:15Z CodeWar: I am loking for a LISP compiler infrastructure that takes in a LISP program and spits out some IR (byte code) preferrably non GPL and of decent quality. Any suggestions? 2014-06-14T23:01:59Z Bike: abcl outputs jvm bytecode, i spose 2014-06-14T23:02:32Z CodeWar: woudl much rather not take Java bytecode and interpret + augment on my own. I am not sure what the License wiht bytecode exaclty is 2014-06-14T23:02:57Z Bike: i'm not sure i understand your requirements. just wanting "bytecode" is super broad. 2014-06-14T23:03:57Z stassats: machine instructions are bytes too! 2014-06-14T23:03:57Z heddwch: There's not really a license on bytecode, just code represented in bytecode.. 2014-06-14T23:04:20Z CodeWar: why is bytecode "super broad" . Its the final IR that I could take and interpret on my own 2014-06-14T23:04:39Z Bike: Because it's just a general term for a kind of VM. 2014-06-14T23:04:48Z kcj_ joined #lisp 2014-06-14T23:04:49Z heddwch: Emacs bytecode, python bytecode, CLR bytecode, java bytecode, clisp bytecode.. 2014-06-14T23:04:50Z Bike: like stassats says, you could do the same with native code. 2014-06-14T23:05:07Z Bike: also, it's not an intermediate representation, it's the final representation much of the time. 2014-06-14T23:05:24Z Bike: 'intermediate representation' usually refers to something in a compiler's internals. 2014-06-14T23:05:29Z kcj quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-14T23:05:36Z CodeWar: Bike: not neceessarily java bytecode is IR :) 2014-06-14T23:05:40Z kcj_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-14T23:05:59Z CodeWar: whether lower or middle or platform dependent IR is a different issue 2014-06-14T23:06:02Z Bike: there's no final compilation step to turn it into some definitive further representation 2014-06-14T23:06:03Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-06-14T23:06:12Z Bike: just in time compile is a bit different 2014-06-14T23:06:22Z Bike: and hell, there's those ARM machines that can run jvm. 2014-06-14T23:06:31Z Bike: point is it's not some kind of strict separation at all. 2014-06-14T23:06:38Z kcj_ joined #lisp 2014-06-14T23:07:31Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-14T23:08:33Z Ralt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-14T23:09:52Z CodeWar: so what are some of the more reliable LISP interpreters out there ( to avoid digging a hole around the IR - machine code debate. FWIW I used to work on a JVM trace JIT for ARM) 2014-06-14T23:10:27Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-14T23:11:54Z Bike: sbcl and ccl are good but compile to native. clisp is weird, but uses some unique bytecode, but is GPL. abcl is on top of the jvm. the commercial implementations are good but probably not amenable to bytecode interpretation. 2014-06-14T23:11:56Z kanru` joined #lisp 2014-06-14T23:12:29Z Bike: they're usually called "implementations" rather than "interpreters" because they don't just interpret. 2014-06-14T23:12:55Z Bike: oh, a table. http://cliki.net/Common%20Lisp%20implementation 2014-06-14T23:13:00Z CodeWar: whats the extra bit they do ? GC? 2014-06-14T23:13:30Z Bike: Compile. 2014-06-14T23:13:35Z n0n0 joined #lisp 2014-06-14T23:13:47Z Bike: Oh, ECL has bytecode, right, maybe you want that. 2014-06-14T23:14:20Z stassats: it's LGPL 2014-06-14T23:14:36Z mcfreely joined #lisp 2014-06-14T23:14:46Z CodeWar: I forget what LGPL was, you could link non LGPL with it right? 2014-06-14T23:15:23Z mcfreely quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-14T23:15:28Z stassats: and ABCL is GPL 2014-06-14T23:18:50Z CodeWar quit (Quit: Lingo - http://www.lingoirc.com) 2014-06-14T23:21:35Z Shinmera: What would one want to do with the bytecode anyway? 2014-06-14T23:23:30Z Guest43293 is now known as Guest30035 2014-06-14T23:25:05Z kcj quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-14T23:28:02Z __prefect joined #lisp 2014-06-14T23:28:04Z phadthai: codeburg: as long as the LGPL library can be upgraded by the user, and that source is available for that part, sure 2014-06-14T23:28:21Z phadthai: ah he left 2014-06-14T23:29:49Z heddwch: It's for the best 2014-06-14T23:30:33Z nha_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-14T23:33:40Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-14T23:34:21Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-06-14T23:39:29Z ustunozgur quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-14T23:40:48Z FracV quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-14T23:45:13Z drewc1 joined #lisp 2014-06-14T23:45:51Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-14T23:47:17Z quazimodo quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-14T23:47:41Z drewc2 joined #lisp 2014-06-14T23:48:07Z drewc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-14T23:49:19Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-06-14T23:50:01Z drewc2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-14T23:50:07Z Rosario quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-14T23:50:45Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-14T23:51:29Z drewc1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-14T23:52:04Z drewc joined #lisp 2014-06-14T23:54:20Z n0n0 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-14T23:54:29Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-14T23:55:03Z Rosario quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-14T23:55:19Z jiteboxr quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-14T23:55:28Z MjrTom`-` joined #lisp 2014-06-14T23:55:28Z MjrTom quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-14T23:55:38Z MjrTom`-` is now known as MjrTom 2014-06-14T23:57:03Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2014-06-14T23:57:49Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-06-14T23:59:07Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-15T00:02:51Z niao joined #lisp 2014-06-15T00:02:58Z niao: I need something like nmdb but that doesn't require to trust every node 2014-06-15T00:03:00Z niao: Any ideas? 2014-06-15T00:03:41Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-15T00:04:05Z Longlius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-15T00:05:31Z Xach: What is nmdb? 2014-06-15T00:05:57Z niao: distributed data store 2014-06-15T00:06:12Z niao: But it needs you to trust every node 2014-06-15T00:07:03Z Fade joined #lisp 2014-06-15T00:08:07Z arquebus joined #lisp 2014-06-15T00:09:50Z kanru` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-15T00:12:36Z arquebus quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-15T00:13:12Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2014-06-15T00:14:09Z aretecode joined #lisp 2014-06-15T00:14:18Z bege quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-15T00:18:45Z kirin` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-15T00:19:53Z kirin` joined #lisp 2014-06-15T00:20:13Z MjrTom quit (Quit: Planet Earth is blue, and there's nothing I can do) 2014-06-15T00:22:52Z Shinmera quit (Quit: ZzzZ) 2014-06-15T00:25:12Z nand1` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-15T00:28:30Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-15T00:28:35Z z0d quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-15T00:28:35Z noncom quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-15T00:33:15Z arbscht joined #lisp 2014-06-15T00:35:44Z mcfreely joined #lisp 2014-06-15T00:36:39Z mcfreely quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-15T00:39:13Z JuanDaugherty: figger out how to then trust every node 2014-06-15T00:39:20Z noncom joined #lisp 2014-06-15T00:39:25Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-15T00:40:07Z niao: JuanDaugherty, that's not an option on the program we are working on 2014-06-15T00:40:29Z niao: What we really need is a decentralized, trustless, p2p data store 2014-06-15T00:40:41Z niao: Something like a bitcoin with no blockchain. More or less. 2014-06-15T00:40:45Z JuanDaugherty: the separating patterns are obvious I presume 2014-06-15T00:41:22Z MjrTom: some sort of DHT maybe? like Vuze has? 2014-06-15T00:42:39Z niao: The program itself is a DHT. The problem is storing data. 2014-06-15T00:43:01Z niao: Persistent and collision-free (key,value) 2014-06-15T00:43:12Z z0d joined #lisp 2014-06-15T00:43:12Z z0d quit (Changing host) 2014-06-15T00:43:12Z z0d joined #lisp 2014-06-15T00:43:30Z MjrTom: oh, so peers to store the data 2014-06-15T00:43:35Z niao: And nodes can't be trusted at all. Otherwise we could just use nmdb 2014-06-15T00:43:58Z niao: That wouldn't work, MjrTom 2014-06-15T00:44:28Z niao: Too much to store. 2014-06-15T00:44:34Z djr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-15T00:44:59Z niao: Users wouldn't like to download a GB file to be able to use the program 2014-06-15T00:47:03Z nell joined #lisp 2014-06-15T00:47:11Z nell: hey im watching the mit course lectures 2014-06-15T00:47:20Z nell: and trying to follow along in my clisp 2014-06-15T00:47:27Z nell: what do i use in place of DEFINE 2014-06-15T00:47:36Z stassats: not clisp 2014-06-15T00:47:44Z nell: what should I use rather? 2014-06-15T00:47:51Z stassats: a scheme implementation 2014-06-15T00:48:19Z nell: sdclsbcl? 2014-06-15T00:48:23Z nell: sbcl* 2014-06-15T00:48:27Z nell: thats common 2014-06-15T00:48:32Z nell: scheme eh 2014-06-15T00:48:45Z Bike: since the course is in scheme, and all. 2014-06-15T00:48:58Z nell: whats modern lisp written in 2014-06-15T00:49:01Z niao: Either Scheme or Racket 2014-06-15T00:49:17Z phadthai: niao: maybe take a look at freenet and related efforts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freenet#See_also 2014-06-15T00:50:09Z niao: It has the same issue: download (and keep updated) a huge file in order to use it 2014-06-15T00:56:35Z MjrTom: why would a GB file have to be downloaded to be a storing peer in a DHT? 2014-06-15T01:00:23Z nell: OH 2014-06-15T01:00:28Z nell: Scheme is used in the book and lectures 2014-06-15T01:00:31Z nell: thanks #lisp 2014-06-15T01:00:37Z nell: btw are any of you truely wizards? 2014-06-15T01:01:01Z nell: or read Anathem 2014-06-15T01:01:18Z nell: Anathem by Neal Stephenson is a good book 2014-06-15T01:05:57Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-15T01:11:53Z segmond joined #lisp 2014-06-15T01:12:41Z ufd joined #lisp 2014-06-15T01:16:26Z nell left #lisp 2014-06-15T01:16:42Z heddwch: Stupid question, but is there anything sort-of similar to distcc existing for any CL? Recieve code, send back fasls? 2014-06-15T01:20:10Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-15T01:20:38Z theos joined #lisp 2014-06-15T01:24:28Z Xach: heddwch: I have vaguely heard about efforts to do that, but I think the CL model also makes that a bit tricky. 2014-06-15T01:25:13Z Xach: That model being that the application is the CL environment, and then you compile & load things to modify and extend it incrementally, and the previous stuff can have significant impact on following stuff. 2014-06-15T01:26:13Z heddwch: belatedly, receive* 2014-06-15T01:26:25Z heddwch: Xach: Ah, okay, thanks. That makes sense, yea =/ 2014-06-15T01:26:54Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-06-15T01:28:39Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-15T01:31:35Z Guest30035 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-15T01:33:57Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-15T01:36:02Z GuilOooo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-15T01:37:05Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-15T01:37:20Z n0n0 joined #lisp 2014-06-15T01:37:42Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-15T01:38:15Z ustunozgur quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-15T01:38:36Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-06-15T01:38:40Z chu joined #lisp 2014-06-15T01:38:43Z theos joined #lisp 2014-06-15T01:41:34Z GuilOooo joined #lisp 2014-06-15T01:47:18Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-15T01:47:24Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-06-15T01:49:08Z vinleod quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-06-15T01:50:33Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2014-06-15T01:51:45Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-15T01:58:34Z MjrTom quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-15T01:59:02Z rymd joined #lisp 2014-06-15T02:00:22Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-15T02:03:45Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-15T02:07:12Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-15T02:09:02Z nell joined #lisp 2014-06-15T02:09:05Z nell: man 2014-06-15T02:09:11Z nell: MIT teaches python now instead of scheme 2014-06-15T02:09:11Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-15T02:09:18Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-15T02:09:25Z meiji11` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-15T02:10:39Z jebes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-15T02:16:30Z tkhoa2711 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-15T02:16:58Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-15T02:19:22Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-15T02:20:00Z huza joined #lisp 2014-06-15T02:20:55Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2014-06-15T02:21:42Z interlocutor quit (Quit: Technocracy now!) 2014-06-15T02:23:00Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-06-15T02:29:45Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-15T02:31:45Z niao quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-15T02:34:35Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-06-15T02:35:16Z theos joined #lisp 2014-06-15T02:57:30Z Eyess quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-15T02:59:47Z MjrTom quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-15T03:00:30Z Eyess joined #lisp 2014-06-15T03:04:52Z yrdz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-15T03:04:54Z jamesf quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-15T03:11:19Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-15T03:11:27Z zwer_m joined #lisp 2014-06-15T03:13:49Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-15T03:14:45Z bege joined #lisp 2014-06-15T03:14:48Z jiteboxr joined #lisp 2014-06-15T03:17:18Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-15T03:22:42Z scottj joined #lisp 2014-06-15T03:24:53Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-15T03:33:19Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-15T03:34:28Z MjrTom quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-15T03:35:26Z JuanDaugherty quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-15T03:35:34Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-15T03:35:43Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-15T03:40:07Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-15T03:41:36Z Longlius joined #lisp 2014-06-15T03:46:50Z jiteboxr quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-15T03:50:18Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-15T03:52:44Z doomlor__ joined #lisp 2014-06-15T03:52:57Z doomlord_1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-15T03:54:51Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-06-15T03:57:16Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-15T03:57:16Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-06-15T03:57:29Z kcj_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-15T03:58:44Z eudoxia quit (Quit: wow such sleepytime) 2014-06-15T04:04:30Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-06-15T04:05:04Z yrk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-15T04:10:05Z JuanDaugherty quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-06-15T04:21:27Z drewc quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-15T04:22:46Z phax left #lisp 2014-06-15T04:24:18Z patrickwonders joined #lisp 2014-06-15T04:25:19Z MjrTom`-` joined #lisp 2014-06-15T04:25:19Z MjrTom quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-15T04:25:25Z beach joined #lisp 2014-06-15T04:25:28Z MjrTom`-` is now known as MjrTom 2014-06-15T04:25:35Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2014-06-15T04:26:35Z rymd: hello 2014-06-15T04:27:29Z KCL_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-15T04:27:40Z drewc joined #lisp 2014-06-15T04:28:03Z patrickwonders quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-15T04:28:10Z beach: rymd: I don't recognize your nick. Are you new here? 2014-06-15T04:28:19Z rymd: yes 2014-06-15T04:28:33Z rymd: I was bored 2014-06-15T04:29:00Z beach: Sorry to hear that. 2014-06-15T04:30:31Z beach: Let me know if you are looking for some project. There are plenty of those to go around. 2014-06-15T04:30:35Z patrickwonders joined #lisp 2014-06-15T04:31:37Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-06-15T04:32:21Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-15T04:33:15Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-15T04:33:20Z rymd: beach: I would be if I knew how to do them 2014-06-15T04:33:35Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0-dev) 2014-06-15T04:34:06Z beach: That may be the case one day. 2014-06-15T04:35:06Z rymd: not at the current rate I'm working 2014-06-15T04:36:45Z beach: According to my latest thinking, in order to cross compile files, I should first write an interpreter for the target environment that runs in the host, and then just run the native target file compiler in that interpreter. 2014-06-15T04:37:07Z beach: I am trying to figure out how much (or little) additional work this method will create. 2014-06-15T04:38:28Z beach: For one thing, I need host representations of all target data. I might be able to steal some host data such as numbers and characters, and perhaps also CONSes. 2014-06-15T04:38:53Z doomlor__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-15T04:43:54Z beach: If I understand the paper by Krystof correctly, then SBCL is the only implementation that attempts to bootstrap from other implementations. So to look for inspiration, I suppose SBCL is the only source. Right? 2014-06-15T04:45:39Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2014-06-15T04:47:53Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-15T04:48:27Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-15T04:51:29Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-15T04:52:52Z drmeiste_: beach: Do you work on SICL? 2014-06-15T04:52:53Z jusss quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-15T04:52:58Z drmeiste_ is now known as drmeister_ 2014-06-15T04:53:12Z beach: drmeister_: Yes. 2014-06-15T04:53:31Z drmeister_: Are you trying to turn it into a working Common Lisp? 2014-06-15T04:53:43Z beach: drmeister_: That's the plan, yes. 2014-06-15T04:54:01Z drmeister_: How is it going? 2014-06-15T04:54:27Z beach: Quite well, thank you. It's a lot of work, though. 2014-06-15T04:54:50Z drmeister_: I know. 2014-06-15T04:54:59Z beach: I bet you do! :) 2014-06-15T04:55:26Z drmeister_: What are you currently working on? 2014-06-15T04:55:31Z beach: It pays off though. All 3 papers I submitted to ILC were accepted. And they are all a result of my work on SICL. 2014-06-15T04:55:51Z beach: Right now, I am trying to figure out the best way of writing the cross compiler. 2014-06-15T04:56:11Z drmeister_: What will you compile into? 2014-06-15T04:56:18Z beach: Native code. 2014-06-15T04:57:32Z drmeister_: What native code are you starting with? 2014-06-15T04:58:02Z heddwch: Navajo 2014-06-15T04:58:26Z beach: Probably x86-64, since that's what my computer has, and I have some knowledge of the machine language and assembler. 2014-06-15T04:58:41Z drmeister_: I actually googled it - I thought that was some obscure processor. 2014-06-15T04:58:47Z heddwch: haha 2014-06-15T04:59:18Z beach: drmeister_: Joking, right? 2014-06-15T04:59:38Z drmeister_: How much of a moving target is x86-64 with AMD and Intel and all these auxiliary instruction sets (SSE etc). 2014-06-15T04:59:57Z Bike: the core instructions are the same 2014-06-15T04:59:58Z beach: The basic instruction set is quite stable. 2014-06-15T05:01:18Z Bike: beach probably doesn't regularly run into code that could use an aeskeygenassist instruction 2014-06-15T05:01:27Z drmeister_: I was watching some Microsoft talks on compiler optimization - it sounded like from processor release to processor release the relative time cost of different instructions were changing significantly. 2014-06-15T05:01:38Z Bike: oh, well yeah. 2014-06-15T05:01:39Z beach: Bike: Right! :) 2014-06-15T05:01:48Z ltbarcly quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-15T05:01:52Z heddwch: That's been going on forever, though 2014-06-15T05:02:00Z heddwch: Not x86-64 exclusive 2014-06-15T05:02:07Z Bike: i know some x86 instructions go to shit on my Atom netbook 2014-06-15T05:02:24Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-15T05:02:43Z Bike: but that's not something beach has to worry about to begin with. 2014-06-15T05:02:54Z Bike: (though, CLMUL is part of the AES set, that'll be nice if beach is doing his own bignums) 2014-06-15T05:03:36Z beach: As long as the obscure instructions could be confined to library code, things won't be too bad. 2014-06-15T05:04:12Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-15T05:04:36Z beach: I read somewhere that one should treat x86-64 as a RISC, because that's how it is created internally. But then I read the AMD documentation, and it seems to contradict that information. 2014-06-15T05:05:01Z drmeister_: Are you going to use any external libraries? Via FFI? 2014-06-15T05:05:06Z Bike: well, it's a risc, but you're not programming in µops 2014-06-15T05:05:21Z Bike: i don't think trying to outthink your processor is going to go well, generally 2014-06-15T05:05:26Z beach: drmeister_: At the moment I am thinking that I don't want to use any foreign code at all. 2014-06-15T05:05:55Z beach: AMD explicitly recommends complex addressing modes, saying they are more efficient than combinations of simpler instructions. 2014-06-15T05:06:11Z beach: Bike: Yeah. 2014-06-15T05:06:27Z Bike: any more than outthinking your compiler, and god knows we do that enough 2014-06-15T05:06:41Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-15T05:07:04Z drmeister_: beach: What were your papers on? 2014-06-15T05:07:09Z drmeister_: The SICL ones. 2014-06-15T05:07:14Z Bike: there's http://marss86.org/~marss86/index.php/Home for the x86 RISC. which is pretty neat. 2014-06-15T05:07:32Z Bike: i guess they basically had to reverse engineer it 2014-06-15T05:07:41Z beach: drmeister_: http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf 2014-06-15T05:07:57Z beach: http://metamodular.com/sliding-gc.pdf 2014-06-15T05:08:19Z beach: http://metamodular.com/satiation.pdf 2014-06-15T05:08:43Z heddwch: Is it a VLIW? 2014-06-15T05:08:47Z heddwch shuts up and clicks 2014-06-15T05:09:17Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-15T05:09:48Z beach: Bike: Wow! Pretty ambitious stuff. 2014-06-15T05:10:46Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-15T05:11:54Z beach: drmeister_: Against repeated advice, I am thinking of writing the GC in Lisp. I know you are working on the GC at the moment. 2014-06-15T05:14:33Z huza quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-15T05:15:15Z Hydan_ joined #lisp 2014-06-15T05:15:16Z drmeister_: beach: If you can generate fast compiled code - I don't see why not. 2014-06-15T05:15:28Z beach: Exactly. 2014-06-15T05:16:17Z drmeister_: The GC I'm using is written in C that the clang compiler converts into LLVM-IR and the LLVM library lowers it to native code. I could have my compiler generate identical LLVM-IR and it would generate identical native code. 2014-06-15T05:17:00Z drmeister_: What intermediate representation will you use? 2014-06-15T05:17:38Z beach: First AST, then a graph of instructions specifically adapted to CL. 2014-06-15T05:17:41Z Bike: well, it might be hard remembering not to cons and such. but having gotten back into C program recently I wish nobody would ever use it again >_< 2014-06-15T05:17:53Z beach: Heh! 2014-06-15T05:18:17Z Hydan quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-15T05:18:27Z Bike: systems language my ass, i can't even use restrict 2014-06-15T05:18:40Z sword joined #lisp 2014-06-15T05:19:13Z drmeister_: I translated some of SICL into C++ for my code. My reader and read-table are inspired by SICL. 2014-06-15T05:19:38Z beach: drmeister_: Oh, really! Great! 2014-06-15T05:19:47Z drmeister_: Meaning - I read the SICL code, figured out what it did and coded something that did the same thing in C++. 2014-06-15T05:19:54Z beach: I see. 2014-06-15T05:20:43Z drmeister_: Yeah - bootstrapping required a full Common Lisp reader when I didn't have Common Lisp running yet. 2014-06-15T05:20:59Z drmeister_: Do you have backquote processor yet in SICL? 2014-06-15T05:21:10Z drmeister_: "have a backquote..." 2014-06-15T05:21:13Z beach: I think I do, yes. 2014-06-15T05:23:00Z drmeister_: Have you started writing the compiler? 2014-06-15T05:23:12Z beach: Bike: "restrict"? 2014-06-15T05:23:28Z Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrict 2014-06-15T05:23:36Z Bike: gcc doesn't even notice it, near as i can tell :( 2014-06-15T05:23:49Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-15T05:23:53Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-15T05:24:21Z drmeister_: restrict is tricky - the folks on #llvm talk about it periodically. 2014-06-15T05:24:59Z beach: Bike: Thanks. I guess I missed the introduction of it. 2014-06-15T05:24:59Z Bike: "clearly i should just write in fortran" 2014-06-15T05:25:29Z MjrTom quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-15T05:25:34Z drmeister_: Fortran is good at "restrict"ing. 2014-06-15T05:27:01Z drmeister_: beach: What about targeting llvm-ir initially? Then you could use llvm for all the backend stuff. 2014-06-15T05:27:20Z beach: Bike: When I figure out why people give strange advice like this, I'll write an essay on my psychology web pages. :) 2014-06-15T05:27:36Z Bike: Wait, strange advice like what 2014-06-15T05:27:54Z beach: Bike: Using C for GC and runtime. 2014-06-15T05:28:04Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-15T05:28:18Z beach: drmeister_: That would require using code in a lesser language. :) 2014-06-15T05:28:30Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-15T05:28:37Z Bike: i guess it's cos the other option i can think of would be, like, making a systems-y lisp to use, and that sounds like... work 2014-06-15T05:29:05Z Bike: or just (macro)assembly i guess. 2014-06-15T05:29:10Z heddwch: I don't see why a subset(/superset for manual allocation) couldn't be used 2014-06-15T05:29:11Z drmeister_: I wouldn't go so far as to say it's particularly well adapted to lisp. 2014-06-15T05:29:29Z beach: Bike: Maybe. I don't know why people want *me* to work less, though. 2014-06-15T05:29:42Z Bike: Empathy? 2014-06-15T05:29:48Z Adlai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-15T05:29:54Z heddwch: Bike: That's a myth 2014-06-15T05:30:00Z beach: drmeister_: Current thinking is to write a LLVM-like system adapted to CL. 2014-06-15T05:30:24Z Adlai joined #lisp 2014-06-15T05:30:41Z beach: drmeister_: http://metamodular.com/cleavir.pdf 2014-06-15T05:30:53Z interlocutor joined #lisp 2014-06-15T05:30:59Z beach: (somewhat old version) 2014-06-15T05:31:57Z drmeister_: beach: Nice - can I use that? 2014-06-15T05:32:00Z Bike: systems programming just seems hard to do well. like, what if you want to tell the compiler that two pointers can't alias each other but one can alias another? or that something's going to be only even numbers, or whatever. even at that level there's so much to say 2014-06-15T05:32:07Z beach: drmeister_: Not yet, no. 2014-06-15T05:32:11Z beach: Not finished yet. 2014-06-15T05:32:41Z beach: drmeister_: I tend to write documentation in parallel with implementation, or even before implementing it. 2014-06-15T05:34:21Z beach: Bike: I am thinking that if I have a system like Cleavir, I could add that information by adding classes/methods, etc. 2014-06-15T05:34:25Z drmeister_: Ok, I've been thinking about the AST part. I currently don't generate an AST in my compiler. S-exp -> LLVM-IR in one shot. It doesn't leave any room for optimization. 2014-06-15T05:36:05Z drmeister_: Hmm, I don't tend to write documentation - or the documentation I write becomes wrong very quickly. I get an idea of where I want to go and start writing the systems I figure I'll need to get there. 2014-06-15T05:37:23Z beach: My documentation does become wrong quickly. But I find it helps me think through my ideas, and it is certainly easier to share those ideas by writing it. So I just take the additional work to rewrite it. 2014-06-15T05:37:34Z drmeister_: beach: Your AST doesn't correspond very closely with the special operators - why? 2014-06-15T05:37:52Z beach: Also, since my memory is very bad, and always has been, I find it helps me when I get back to it after some time. 2014-06-15T05:38:22Z drmeister_: beach: Long function names and long variable names. 2014-06-15T05:38:41Z drmeister_: That's how I get by. 2014-06-15T05:38:43Z vinleod quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-15T05:39:07Z drmeister_: And when I'm working on a hard problem - I don't stop. 2014-06-15T05:39:35Z beach: drmeister_: The ASTs correspond to special operators plus stuff I need in order to optimize intermediate code. 2014-06-15T05:40:37Z Beetny joined #lisp 2014-06-15T05:40:48Z drmeister_: Have you implemented a compiler before? 2014-06-15T05:41:05Z beach: drmeister_: A few, yes. But this is the first time for CL. 2014-06-15T05:42:04Z drmeister_: My CL compiler is the first compiler I wrote - I didn't have the background to write a proper one. I see that now. 2014-06-15T05:42:53Z beach: drmeister_: I think you are acquiring that knowledge in writing it. What more can you wish? 2014-06-15T05:43:07Z beach: Maybe that was not your intention, though. 2014-06-15T05:43:24Z drmeister_: But CL is easy to write a compiler. The special operators are very well thought out and orthogonal in what they do. 2014-06-15T05:43:54Z beach: Yes, the creators of the standard are very smart people. 2014-06-15T05:44:45Z drmeister_: I learned that even when I didn't understand what they were going on about in the CLHS - just make it work the way they say it should work and it became clear later on why it needed to be that way. 2014-06-15T05:45:29Z beach: I agree. 2014-06-15T05:45:30Z drmeister_: I really got a sense that people thought long and hard about what needed to be in the language. 2014-06-15T05:45:53Z KCL_ joined #lisp 2014-06-15T05:46:22Z beach: Also, I think they (collectively) had a lot of experience from previous work and previous Lisp dialects. 2014-06-15T05:46:41Z drmeister_: Agreed. 2014-06-15T05:47:36Z drmeister_: Where are these folks now? It's like the pyramids and the aliens who built them have gone. 2014-06-15T05:48:00Z beach: drmeister_: Kent Pitman regularly shows up at Lisp conferences. 2014-06-15T05:48:25Z Bike: if i learned anything from gigamonkey's book, it's that half of these people retire to become composers or something. 2014-06-15T05:48:54Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-15T05:49:05Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-15T05:50:10Z drmeister_: 5-files left - oh god my static analyzer is slow. 2014-06-15T05:50:37Z aksr joined #lisp 2014-06-15T05:52:07Z drmeister_: It takes about 6.5 hours now - and that's running on 7 cores. I've never worked with a program that took so long to run. 2014-06-15T05:53:18Z beach: I recall that you mention a figure relating its performance to that of SBCL. Was it a few hundred times slower? 2014-06-15T05:53:31Z drmeister_: This isn't that. 2014-06-15T05:53:36Z beach: Oh. 2014-06-15T05:54:32Z drmeister_: Well, it's partly that. It's partly the clang front end and callbacks written in Common Lisp - I don't have profiling tools to tell me what takes all the time. Probably the Common Lisp code. 2014-06-15T05:54:56Z drmeister_: But clang is no speed demon either. 2014-06-15T05:56:05Z drmeister_: Yeah, the benchmarks I ran put me at a few hundred times slower. It was hard to profile because I used reference counting at the time and entering and leaving functions involved lots of reference count manipulation. 2014-06-15T05:57:03Z beach: Right, reference counting is know to be very slow. Even more so nowadays when memory accesses are relatively slower. 2014-06-15T05:57:16Z drmeister_: Now that I have garbage collection working I hope to do more profiling and figure out where the bottlenecks are. 2014-06-15T05:57:41Z beach: I am puzzled by people who choose C++ for speed, then they use reference counting or smart pointers, which sets them back a factor 10-100 in speed. 2014-06-15T05:57:57Z heddwch: naïvete 2014-06-15T05:58:00Z drmeister_: They are clueless. 2014-06-15T05:58:07Z beach: Yeah, both. 2014-06-15T05:58:22Z beach: The sad thing is that this is going to every day in the software industry. 2014-06-15T05:59:10Z heddwch: C++ and Java are the dominant languages... I'd get used to sadness 2014-06-15T06:00:13Z drmeister_: The fasted way to allocate memory is to increment a pointer. The fastest way to release memory is to abandon pages. A good copying garbage collector is going to let you approach those speeds. 2014-06-15T06:00:18Z MoALTz__ joined #lisp 2014-06-15T06:00:20Z beach: heddwch: Nah, I'll write a book about it some day. 2014-06-15T06:01:17Z heddwch: hehe :) 2014-06-15T06:03:36Z beach: drmeister_: If you are interested in modern GC methods, I suggest this paper: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=1133255.1134023 2014-06-15T06:03:55Z MoALTz_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-15T06:05:49Z beach: drmeister_: It does not require as much memory as traditional copying collectors, and it is compacting, as opposed to "fake copying" collectors. Plus, it is concurrent and parallel. 2014-06-15T06:05:54Z beach: Neat stuff really. 2014-06-15T06:06:22Z drmeister_: What are examples of "fake copying" collectors? 2014-06-15T06:07:40Z beach: drmeister_: Well, the main characteristic of a copying collector is that it does not touch dead objects. This can be achieved by organizing objects into a circular list without copying them. 2014-06-15T06:08:29Z beach: drmeister_: For basic GC stuff I recommend "The Garbage Collection Handbook" and the survey paper by Paul Wilson. 2014-06-15T06:09:23Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-06-15T06:09:35Z drmeister_: Thanks 2014-06-15T06:10:20Z beach: Sure. That's yet another entire body of knowledge to acquire. Luckily, I spet a year in Austin with Paul Wilson and his group. Very instructive. 2014-06-15T06:10:44Z beach: [plus the micro-brewery beer was excellent!] 2014-06-15T06:11:03Z drmeister_: Are you a professor of computer science? 2014-06-15T06:11:07Z beach: Yes. 2014-06-15T06:13:34Z beach: Actually, one probably doesn't even need to use smart pointers or reference counters to lose out in performance with C++. Even the normal malloc/free-type collector is probably slower than modern GC techniques. 2014-06-15T06:13:57Z drmeister_: I'm a professor of Chemistry - I'm not sure if I've introduced myself professionally. 2014-06-15T06:14:12Z beach: drmeister_: Yes, I looked you up on the web. :) 2014-06-15T06:14:55Z drmeister_: We've spoken several times - I apologize if I'm repeating myself. 2014-06-15T06:15:12Z beach: drmeister_: Don't worry about it. 2014-06-15T06:16:45Z beach: drmeister_: If you come to ILC, we can have a chat. 2014-06-15T06:17:26Z drmeister_: It's good that you can benefit professionally from what you are doing. Me - I steal away time and brainpower from the things that I am paid to do for this. 2014-06-15T06:17:44Z beach: I see, yes. 2014-06-15T06:18:24Z beach: Nothing prevents you from publishing a few papers about it though. That will count, right? 2014-06-15T06:20:07Z Bike: i don't think th is is what 'computational chemistry' usually means... 2014-06-15T06:20:17Z beach: Bike: :) 2014-06-15T06:21:07Z beach: heddwch: I already have a title for the book, both in English and in French. I have been planning it for a long time, but my knowledge of what goes on in industry has deteriorated since. I need to do an internship or find a co-author. 2014-06-15T06:21:24Z drmeister_: Bike: Computational chemistry usually means running some canned program on some molecules. Surprisingly few computational chemists know how to rub to bits together to make a program. 2014-06-15T06:21:49Z Bike: 'surprisingly', you say. i'm doing my damnedest to get a job in science coding, i know how terrible everyone is 2014-06-15T06:22:32Z drmeister_: You are doing neuroscience - correct? 2014-06-15T06:22:48Z beach: drmeister_: Yet, may of them are perfectly capable of declaring how CS is not nearly as worthy as chemistry. 2014-06-15T06:22:53Z Bike: well, yeah, as an undergrad though. 2014-06-15T06:23:16Z Bike: i can show some of the code i work on, or just tell horror stories. i'm available for birthdays and bar mitzvahs 2014-06-15T06:23:33Z beach: Haha! Great! 2014-06-15T06:23:36Z ltbarcly quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-15T06:23:56Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-15T06:25:49Z drmeister_: I better get to bed. I'm exhausted. I had hoped to run my static analyzer twice in one day but I won't be clear headed enough to fix anything when it's done so I'm off to bed. 2014-06-15T06:26:17Z beach: drmeister_: Sleep well! 2014-06-15T06:27:16Z vinleod quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-06-15T06:27:18Z beach: heddwch: Speaking of which, #osdev is full of people who "know" that "GC would kill the kernel", "A kernel MUST be written in C or C++", etc, etc. 2014-06-15T06:27:39Z prxq joined #lisp 2014-06-15T06:29:42Z KCL_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-15T06:33:28Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-06-15T06:36:12Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2014-06-15T06:38:22Z alchemis7 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-15T06:38:32Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-15T06:39:20Z MjrTom quit (Quit: Planet Earth is blue, and there's nothing I can do) 2014-06-15T06:40:04Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-06-15T06:42:25Z alchemis7 joined #lisp 2014-06-15T06:43:18Z MrWoohoo joined 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get those two modules 2014-06-15T08:09:51Z dmiles_afk: but it'd be better if i started not from scratch 2014-06-15T08:10:03Z huza joined #lisp 2014-06-15T08:10:55Z dmiles_afk: i suppose there "popular mud" is an oxymormon 2014-06-15T08:11:08Z dmiles_afk: the^ 2014-06-15T08:11:49Z ghostsai joined #lisp 2014-06-15T08:13:33Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-15T08:13:40Z dmiles_afk: for now http://common-lisp.net/project/lmud/ will be great .. but wondered if there was something more used 2014-06-15T08:14:38Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-06-15T08:24:36Z ghostsai quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-15T08:27:11Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-06-15T08:30:09Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-06-15T08:36:17Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-06-15T08:37:24Z eigenlicht joined #lisp 2014-06-15T08:37:34Z oleo: morning 2014-06-15T08:45:42Z beach: Hello oleo! 2014-06-15T08:46:35Z oleo: hello beach! 2014-06-15T08:46:46Z scottj quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-15T08:50:29Z djr quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 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2014-06-15T12:49:22Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-15T12:53:29Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-06-15T12:58:23Z beach: Wow, quiet today. 2014-06-15T12:58:52Z oleo: yes 2014-06-15T12:59:15Z oleo: must be people are horny or so...... 2014-06-15T12:59:20Z oleo: lol 2014-06-15T13:01:34Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-15T13:01:46Z Shinmera: I for one am busy working on things, so 2014-06-15T13:02:21Z beach: Good, good! :) 2014-06-15T13:03:11Z p_l is trying to figure out what to do 2014-06-15T13:03:21Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-15T13:03:25Z beach: p_l: What are your choices? 2014-06-15T13:03:37Z Shinmera: I was almost going to disturb the silence with an issue I had concerning metaclasses, but I managed to figure it out myself after pounding on my desk for half an hour 2014-06-15T13:03:50Z p_l: beach: in general, looking for a job. It's just this disturbed feeling of transition :) 2014-06-15T13:03:57Z Zhivago: Bringing us back to oleo's point, I guess. 2014-06-15T13:04:50Z hugod joined #lisp 2014-06-15T13:04:59Z beach: p_l: Remind me. Are you about to graduate? 2014-06-15T13:05:00Z hugod is now known as Guest58481 2014-06-15T13:05:01Z zolk3ri: oleo: I am. 2014-06-15T13:06:03Z p_l: beach: regardless of results, I'm finished with university. I'll know for sure how I ended up in August, but I want to have a job lined up by that time 2014-06-15T13:11:05Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-06-15T13:12:08Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-15T13:13:41Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-15T13:15:30Z Zhivago: p_l: What do you want to do? 2014-06-15T13:17:15Z p_l: tbh, i was leaning for devops/infrastructure related things recently, though mostly because I know the topics somewhat well 2014-06-15T13:18:14Z p_l: though I wouldn't mind many other things, which is kinda why I feel so lost right now 2014-06-15T13:18:29Z chu joined #lisp 2014-06-15T13:20:37Z stassats: flipping burgers? 2014-06-15T13:20:44Z jackdaniel: anyone could suggest me library for cl which handles unix domain sockets? 2014-06-15T13:20:59Z p_l: my biggest preference is, right now, "not in poland, USA, or a helpdesk job" 2014-06-15T13:21:12Z shridhar quit (Quit: shridhar) 2014-06-15T13:21:13Z p_l: stassats: I'd be honestly crap at flipping burgers :) 2014-06-15T13:21:17Z stassats: p_l: so, north korea? 2014-06-15T13:21:46Z Oddity quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-15T13:21:55Z p_l: stassats: hahaha 2014-06-15T13:21:57Z Guest58481 is now known as hugoduncan 2014-06-15T13:22:26Z Zhivago: Well, did you do any internships? 2014-06-15T13:24:20Z p_l: Zhivago: A year-long placement, going to talk with them to keep the connection alive, though probably not going to take a job there (due to location more so than anything else - they are great, but I have strong reasons to look outside Poland for a job) 2014-06-15T13:25:12Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-15T13:26:11Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-15T13:26:42Z p_l: and the placement was, well, with polish military 2014-06-15T13:27:56Z drewc: Na Zdrowie! 2014-06-15T13:28:09Z p_l: Dziękuje :) 2014-06-15T13:28:24Z jackdaniel: ślicznie 2014-06-15T13:28:27Z jackdaniel: zapomniałeś o ślicznie 2014-06-15T13:28:29Z jackdaniel: ;-) 2014-06-15T13:28:29Z zolk3ri: Kurwa mać. 2014-06-15T13:28:33Z drewc does not know much Polish, but that is not a curse word :) 2014-06-15T13:28:38Z p_l: hehe 2014-06-15T13:29:02Z drewc would not say what zolk3ri said! :P 2014-06-15T13:29:37Z Zhivago: p_l: As with girlfriends, it's always easier to find one when you have one. 2014-06-15T13:29:53Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-15T13:31:08Z Shinmera: I'm quite happy with the system I figured out for brush configuration http://shinmera.tymoon.eu/public/screenshot-2014.06.15-15:29:42.png 2014-06-15T13:31:11Z p_l: Zhivago: ha! At least I have some contacts in general, even if unfortunately some aren't exactly useful due to location. 2014-06-15T13:31:21Z hugoduncan is now known as hugod 2014-06-15T13:31:27Z Shinmera: Require UI elements for brush slots are generated by the brush-class' field definitions 2014-06-15T13:31:33Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-06-15T13:31:36Z Shinmera: *Required 2014-06-15T13:31:59Z p_l: Shinmera: looks nifty! 2014-06-15T13:32:16Z dbushenko quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-15T13:32:30Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: what are you working on? 2014-06-15T13:32:36Z Zhivago: p_l: In any case, I'd recommend taking what you can get and continuing to look. 2014-06-15T13:32:38Z Shinmera: A painting application 2014-06-15T13:32:46Z Zhivago: Also, you'll probably screw up your first job. :) 2014-06-15T13:32:54Z jackdaniel: oh, i tought you're building a toolkit 2014-06-15T13:33:01Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-15T13:33:03Z p_l: Zhivago: Oh, I screwed up previous ones well enough :> 2014-06-15T13:33:10Z p_l: All were a learning experience, though 2014-06-15T13:33:10Z Shinmera: Haha no, I'm using Qt. 2014-06-15T13:33:38Z jackdaniel: im digging into wayland protocol to implement it natively in cl, thats probably why my thoughts gather around that topic 2014-06-15T13:34:33Z Shinmera: I initially wanted to write a library for tablet input in CL, but then I realized I'd have no clue how to go about it and making a painting app was what I was more interested in anyway. Luckily I discovered that Qt has rather good tablet support out of the box. 2014-06-15T13:34:42Z zeroish joined #lisp 2014-06-15T13:34:55Z beach: jackdaniel: I wonder whether it would be possible to define a CL abstraction common between Wayland and X11 render extension. 2014-06-15T13:34:55Z beach: 2014-06-15T13:34:56Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-15T13:35:06Z p_l: beach: I don't think so 2014-06-15T13:35:12Z beach: :( 2014-06-15T13:35:28Z p_l: unless you made it look at best as "put a bitmap here" and nothing else? 2014-06-15T13:35:43Z jackdaniel: beach: it depends what do you expect from compositor, wayland gives you only buffers 2014-06-15T13:35:44Z beach: Oh, I thought Wayland was based on compositing. 2014-06-15T13:35:51Z p_l: beach: it is a compositor 2014-06-15T13:35:54Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-15T13:35:58Z jackdaniel: but most of X toolkits now deal with only-buffer-via-X anyway 2014-06-15T13:36:04Z p_l: but doesn't mean it has XRENDER's painting functions 2014-06-15T13:36:21Z beach: OK, I see. 2014-06-15T13:36:26Z p_l: jackdaniel: except GTK3, but GTK3 is simply broken 2014-06-15T13:36:36Z jackdaniel: agreed :-) 2014-06-15T13:36:51Z p_l: (GTK3 takes it to extreme trying GL everywhere resulting in utter crap on screen sometimes) 2014-06-15T13:37:36Z jackdaniel: beach: but there is XWayland in the go, it will let run X apps on top of it 2014-06-15T13:37:48Z jackdaniel: so it shouldn't be much of a problem anyway 2014-06-15T13:37:50Z p_l: jackdaniel: though, a friend of mine had a funny situation where switching Qt back to classic X11 engine made it work faster than the new bitmap one 2014-06-15T13:38:01Z beach: jackdaniel: Yes, I see. 2014-06-15T13:38:48Z p_l: jackdaniel: Given the compatibility issues caused in X.Org before, I'll remain skeptical on XWayland actually dealing properly with applications expecting X11 instead of "random Qt/GTK application that simply didn't link with Wayland" 2014-06-15T13:39:21Z p_l: (makes for a pleasant surprise if my expectations are exceeded, but so far various recent changes make me scream to heavens) 2014-06-15T13:39:32Z jackdaniel: p_l: well, i think of it as a legacy solution, which doesn't have to be perfect 2014-06-15T13:41:22Z p_l: jackdaniel: let's just say that I am skeptical it will work at all for stuff that needs legacy support (and in general skeptical about the whole thing, but it's heavily OT and I don't want to flame) 2014-06-15T13:41:38Z jusss` joined #lisp 2014-06-15T13:42:57Z jackdaniel: sure thing. why don't you want to work in poland? 2014-06-15T13:43:25Z stassats: "sure thing. let's talk some other off-topic" 2014-06-15T13:43:32Z p_l: hahaha 2014-06-15T13:43:53Z p_l: I'd rather see Shinmera 's metaclass for brushes :) 2014-06-15T13:43:55Z jackdaniel: stassats: well, only thing which is left is arguing. As p_l said, its open topic 2014-06-15T13:44:07Z p_l: *offtopic :) 2014-06-15T13:44:22Z jackdaniel: hehe, i understood it differently 2014-06-15T13:44:41Z p_l: Shinmera: btw, do you have your code public somewhere? 2014-06-15T13:44:44Z Shinmera: p_l: https://github.com/Shinmera/parasol/blob/master/brushes/brush.lisp 2014-06-15T13:44:46Z p_l: yay 2014-06-15T13:45:24Z p_l adds to collection of MOP examples 2014-06-15T13:45:52Z Shinmera: I mostly looked at how commonqt's qt-superclass worked and went from there. 2014-06-15T13:46:52Z doomlor__ joined #lisp 2014-06-15T13:46:52Z p_l: Shinmera: I'm sometimes asked by newbies "what MOP gives you" or similar, having answers unrelated to ORM is good :) 2014-06-15T13:48:00Z Shinmera: I was quite amazed when I realised that classes are classes too. 2014-06-15T13:49:21Z p_l: slots too 2014-06-15T13:49:37Z stassats: Shinmera: you mean objects? 2014-06-15T13:50:09Z Shinmera: Well, yes 2014-06-15T13:50:17Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-15T13:56:06Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-15T14:05:44Z yrdz joined #lisp 2014-06-15T14:19:07Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-06-15T14:20:18Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-15T14:20:25Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-15T14:24:58Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-15T14:27:25Z jusss` quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-15T14:28:08Z jusss` joined #lisp 2014-06-15T14:29:33Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-15T14:32:03Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-15T14:35:55Z Guest213O3 joined #lisp 2014-06-15T14:36:13Z Sir_herrbatka joined #lisp 2014-06-15T14:38:55Z jiteboxr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-15T14:40:12Z Guest213O3 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-15T14:42:17Z huza joined #lisp 2014-06-15T14:44:36Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-15T14:44:51Z jusss` is now known as jusss 2014-06-15T14:45:19Z jusss quit (Changing host) 2014-06-15T14:45:19Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-15T14:45:30Z foreignFunction quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-15T14:45:34Z gigetoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-15T14:46:15Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2014-06-15T14:47:08Z huza quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-15T14:47:27Z huza joined #lisp 2014-06-15T14:49:53Z huza quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-15T14:50:12Z huza joined #lisp 2014-06-15T14:51:55Z huza quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-15T14:59:32Z atgreen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-15T15:02:49Z drmeister_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-15T15:05:33Z mishoo_ quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-06-15T15:06:06Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-15T15:07:05Z doomlor__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-15T15:12:35Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-15T15:16:26Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-15T15:20:07Z monod joined #lisp 2014-06-15T15:26:41Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-15T15:28:59Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-15T15:33:41Z drmeiste_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-15T15:40:30Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-15T15:41:58Z klltkr joined #lisp 2014-06-15T15:44:21Z test1600 joined #lisp 2014-06-15T15:45:56Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-15T15:47:44Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-15T15:48:46Z Oddity joined #lisp 2014-06-15T15:49:03Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-15T15:49:43Z jusss quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-15T15:57:15Z Ralt joined #lisp 2014-06-15T15:57:34Z Ralt: hi 2014-06-15T15:57:56Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-15T16:00:37Z varjag_ joined #lisp 2014-06-15T16:05:21Z jackdaniel: hi 2014-06-15T16:08:03Z qiemem joined #lisp 2014-06-15T16:13:12Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-15T16:16:12Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-06-15T16:17:33Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-15T16:24:25Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-15T16:27:56Z [1]test1600 joined #lisp 2014-06-15T16:29:53Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-15T16:29:53Z [1]test1600 is now known as test1600 2014-06-15T16:31:04Z neilv joined #lisp 2014-06-15T16:31:27Z p_l quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-15T16:33:21Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-15T16:37:54Z hitecnologys_ joined #lisp 2014-06-15T16:38:09Z p_l joined #lisp 2014-06-15T16:38:31Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-15T16:39:14Z JuanDaugherty quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-15T16:39:54Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-06-15T16:40:50Z hitecnologys quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-15T16:42:35Z eni joined #lisp 2014-06-15T16:43:28Z neilv: hi. i've been away from cl for a few years. is there a current de facto standard for embedding api docs for a library in the cl code? 2014-06-15T16:45:49Z hitecnologys_ is now known as hitecnologys 2014-06-15T16:46:55Z JuanDaugherty: whatever works with describe/slime in your env? 2014-06-15T16:47:16Z hitecnologys: neilv: as far a I know there's no particular standard. Just write docstrings and comments if necessary and you'll be fine. 2014-06-15T16:47:21Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-06-15T16:48:14Z JuanDaugherty: the standard thing should work with lisp, q something 2014-06-15T16:49:40Z neilv: good point. someone is asking me, and i think maybe they want html or pdf documents because they have an external requirement for that 2014-06-15T16:50:03Z neilv: but i will point out that's not the preferred way of people who actually use the api docs :) 2014-06-15T16:50:41Z JuanDaugherty: doxygen 2014-06-15T16:51:37Z JuanDaugherty: there is a lisp specific thing though, literate p styles, usw 2014-06-15T16:52:00Z JuanDaugherty: but the wisdom was as hitecnologys said 2014-06-15T16:52:07Z neilv: http://www.cliki.net/documentation%20tool 2014-06-15T16:52:39Z neilv: thanks. i'm going to emphasize docstrings and slime, and then if they need a printed manual, use a tool that works from docstrings 2014-06-15T16:53:03Z Shinmera: That is the usual way of doing things I believe, yes 2014-06-15T16:53:26Z JuanDaugherty: Albert yeah, dunno if that works though 2014-06-15T16:53:37Z hitecnologys agrees with Shinmera 2014-06-15T16:53:58Z neilv: thank you. we're all in agreement :) 2014-06-15T16:54:00Z Shinmera: At least I generate all my documentation pages with an HTML template and a small program that writes a symbol index with docstrings into it. 2014-06-15T16:54:22Z JuanDaugherty: doxygen does work 2014-06-15T16:56:03Z p_l quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-15T16:56:17Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-15T16:57:17Z beach thinks it's a bad idea to embed API documentation in source code. 2014-06-15T17:01:34Z mood: Is there a way to get the value that DESTRUCTURING-BIND, when called with a lambda list that is taken from a variable, binds to a certain symbol? 2014-06-15T17:02:12Z hitecnologys: beach: well, using docstrings to describe what functions do and how to use them sounds good to me. 2014-06-15T17:02:20Z Bike: uhm, not dynamically 2014-06-15T17:02:30Z neilv: oops, gotta run. thanks again 2014-06-15T17:02:33Z neilv quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-15T17:02:34Z beach: hitecnologys: Yes, but I would use (setf documentation) rather than putting it in the source code. 2014-06-15T17:03:13Z hitecnologys: beach: I see. 2014-06-15T17:03:20Z beach: For one thing, the target audience is different. 2014-06-15T17:03:26Z p_l joined #lisp 2014-06-15T17:03:39Z mood: I basically want to write a function that you can call like (foo 'y '(x y &optional z) '("foo" "bar" "baz")) that would then return "bar" 2014-06-15T17:03:40Z beach: So docstrings become noise to the maintainer. 2014-06-15T17:04:52Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-15T17:05:03Z tinyblak quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-15T17:05:37Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-15T17:07:01Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-15T17:13:04Z Bike: mood: that would pretty much require eval 2014-06-15T17:13:29Z beach left #lisp 2014-06-15T17:14:00Z Bike: (defun foo (var dest obj) (eval `(destructuring-bind ,dest ,obj ,var))) and all the badness implied 2014-06-15T17:14:12Z mood: Bike: Thanks for the confirmation, I couldn't really find a way to do it. I guess I'll have to come up with an alternative solution, because I don't want to use EVAL. 2014-06-15T17:14:23Z Bike: good plan. 2014-06-15T17:16:12Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-06-15T17:22:39Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-15T17:23:58Z jewel joined #lisp 2014-06-15T17:24:02Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-15T17:29:13Z zolk3ri quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-15T17:31:42Z axion: i've been forced to use python for the last 2 days for a contract - i never missed () more in my life 2014-06-15T17:31:50Z axion: sorry, a bit off-topic. had to vent my frustration 2014-06-15T17:34:34Z drewc mumbles something about using python, first with CMUCL and then SBCL, is on topic and what he does for a living. 2014-06-15T17:34:36Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-15T17:35:19Z drewc: axion: http://common-lisp.net/project/cmucl/doc/cmu-user/compiler.html :P 2014-06-15T17:36:08Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-15T17:37:36Z axion: ? 2014-06-15T17:38:03Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-15T17:38:08Z mood: The CMUCL (and SBCL) compiler is called Python 2014-06-15T17:38:23Z Blkt: axion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CMUCL 2014-06-15T17:38:47Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-15T17:38:52Z axion: aha 2014-06-15T17:39:06Z drewc: axion: "The CMUCL compiler (also known as Python, not to be confused with the programming language of the same name) has many features that are seldom or never supported by conventional Common Lisp compilers" 2014-06-15T17:39:18Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-15T17:39:46Z pjb: axion: yes, python is horrible for that, it distinguishes statements from expressions. At least, in Ruby there are only expressions, so you can wrap each of the in parentheses. 2014-06-15T17:39:51Z p_l|backup: sometimes the things Python apparently can do are positively trippy... 2014-06-15T17:40:41Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-15T17:42:08Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-15T17:46:36Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-06-15T17:47:17Z Zag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-15T17:48:45Z emma: Would you recommend common lisp as a language for a beginner hobbyist like me? 2014-06-15T17:49:15Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-15T17:50:42Z axion: i will let you read PCL and decide for yourself. i had a brief Python intro before being forced to read it and havent looked back in years 2014-06-15T17:51:30Z hitecnologys: axion: forced? 2014-06-15T17:52:01Z zickzackv joined #lisp 2014-06-15T17:52:39Z axion: yes, sykopomp kept edging me and i finally gave in 2014-06-15T17:53:05Z hitecnologys: I see. 2014-06-15T17:53:05Z axion: i told myself i would never code with those ugly () and i havent really touched another language in about 5 years 2014-06-15T17:53:14Z axion: (once i read it) 2014-06-15T17:53:49Z axion: amazing how one book can change your outlook and preference 2014-06-15T17:55:09Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-15T17:56:41Z wz1000 joined #lisp 2014-06-15T17:59:44Z oleo: heh 2014-06-15T18:00:25Z drewc: emma: I really think it depends on what you want to achieve in your hobby. I like CL, and recommend it for just about everything... but for a beginner hobby, well, there are other things to take account of beyond the mutable standardization that CL is. 2014-06-15T18:00:38Z dkcl can't really program anything without symbolic expressions anymore 2014-06-15T18:00:43Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-15T18:00:44Z dkcl: emma: Oh, hi 2014-06-15T18:01:05Z elfenixtorres quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-15T18:01:24Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-15T18:04:07Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-15T18:05:39Z zwer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-15T18:06:03Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-15T18:06:11Z drewc: dkcl: I love sexps. Even when I am not coding lisp I tend to compile sexps to _whatever language_. example: https://github.com/drewc/yasexml/blob/master/yasexml.org 2014-06-15T18:07:21Z heddwch: It was originally planned to eventually do something m-expressiony, but everyone that got used to s-exps much preferred them 2014-06-15T18:07:32Z arenz joined #lisp 2014-06-15T18:08:38Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-15T18:10:30Z beslyrus quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2014-06-15T18:10:33Z hugod is now known as hugod|away 2014-06-15T18:10:39Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-06-15T18:10:44Z drewc: I like the fact that the AST and the SEXPs are somewhat related for Lisp coding ... but really just prefer code-as-data and data-as-code, which sexps excel at... and are fairly simple and parse/compile/run-able etc. 2014-06-15T18:10:44Z Sir_herrbatka: does anybody know if symbolics genera font is avaible for linux somewhere? 2014-06-15T18:11:24Z aksr quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-15T18:12:02Z aksr joined #lisp 2014-06-15T18:12:03Z hugod|away quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-06-15T18:12:25Z dkcl: drewc: Nice! 2014-06-15T18:12:55Z dkcl: Sir_herrbatka: www.eurogaran.com/downloads/lispmfont/ 2014-06-15T18:13:05Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-15T18:13:25Z Sir_herrbatka: dkcl: thx, but i look for genera font 2014-06-15T18:13:42Z dkcl: Oh, my bad 2014-06-15T18:14:53Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-15T18:14:56Z dkcl: http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/~r.f.moeller/uims-clim/genera-docex.gif 2014-06-15T18:15:11Z dkcl: Sir_herrbatka: It's pretty nice and clean. Please let me know if you manage to find it! :P 2014-06-15T18:15:21Z Sir_herrbatka: heh 2014-06-15T18:15:35Z Sir_herrbatka: nice that you share my point of view 2014-06-15T18:15:39Z heddwch: Wonder if the opengenera emulator includes it 2014-06-15T18:15:54Z hugod|away joined #lisp 2014-06-15T18:16:27Z hugod|away is now known as hugod 2014-06-15T18:19:48Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-06-15T18:26:11Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-15T18:26:19Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-06-15T18:27:04Z ustunozgur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-15T18:27:58Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-15T18:29:24Z p_l: ... I think I got the fonts, but I haven't yet figured how to load them into any application 2014-06-15T18:31:47Z test1600 joined #lisp 2014-06-15T18:32:17Z ustunozgur quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-15T18:33:06Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-15T18:33:42Z Sir_herrbatka: p_l: clearly, those are some kind of bitmaps 2014-06-15T18:35:49Z Sir_herrbatka: anyway, this looks like a really good font 2014-06-15T18:36:04Z Sir_herrbatka: hopefully we can use it someday 2014-06-15T18:36:32Z heddwch: i think there's modern fonts that fill the same role, maybe even some of that newfangled TTF fluff 2014-06-15T18:36:51Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-15T18:39:42Z Sir_herrbatka: heddwch: sure, but the one looks really, really well 2014-06-15T18:40:03Z heddwch: hehe 2014-06-15T18:41:08Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2014-06-15T18:42:18Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-15T18:42:24Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-15T18:42:56Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-15T18:44:04Z p_l: that said, Genera does include CPTFONT 2014-06-15T18:47:15Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-15T18:51:00Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-15T18:53:37Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-06-15T18:54:51Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-06-15T18:56:08Z p_l: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9540080/screenshots/yui/2014-06-15_18%3A55_1366x768.png <--- well, some apps do display the fonts... 2014-06-15T18:58:45Z heddwch: What WM is that? 2014-06-15T18:59:43Z p_l: it's my setup of XMonad, running applications full screen 2014-06-15T19:00:10Z heddwch: ah :) 2014-06-15T19:01:15Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-15T19:01:45Z p_l: and the font is symbolics50, used to write the title screen in Genera 2014-06-15T19:02:37Z heddwch: That much I recognized :) Do the codepoints actually line up? I can't really tell from that application 2014-06-15T19:02:50Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-15T19:03:57Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-06-15T19:04:20Z Puffin joined #lisp 2014-06-15T19:04:41Z p_l: well, I just started xterm with CPTFONT from Genera 2014-06-15T19:05:43Z loke joined #lisp 2014-06-15T19:05:52Z p_l: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9540080/screenshots/yui/2014-06-15_19%3A04_1366x768.png 2014-06-15T19:06:02Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-15T19:06:12Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-15T19:07:06Z Sir_herrbatka: p_l: !!! 2014-06-15T19:07:20Z Sir_herrbatka: care to share? 2014-06-15T19:07:36Z p_l: heddwch: for some fonts, some codepoints don't match up 2014-06-15T19:08:24Z AdmiralBumbleBee quit (Quit: AdmiralBumbleBee) 2014-06-15T19:08:27Z inklesspen joined #lisp 2014-06-15T19:08:36Z test1600 joined #lisp 2014-06-15T19:10:10Z p_l: ooooh, SAIL font! 2014-06-15T19:10:12Z loke: p_l: what is that you were shoing? 2014-06-15T19:10:26Z p_l: loke: I grabbed Genera fonts and loaded them into X11 2014-06-15T19:10:39Z ustunozgur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-15T19:11:12Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-15T19:11:40Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-15T19:11:45Z Sir_herrbatka: p_l: man, you are teasing me without sharing font :P 2014-06-15T19:11:54Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-06-15T19:11:54Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-15T19:12:20Z heddwch: p_l: aw =/ Fixable, though 2014-06-15T19:12:27Z p_l: Sir_herrbatka: I don't even want to think about legality :P 2014-06-15T19:12:48Z Sir_herrbatka: legality? what is that? 2014-06-15T19:13:09Z p_l: they are included in OpenGenera 2.0 install CD, if you manage to unpack the Tru64 package archives 2014-06-15T19:13:55Z p_l: a lot of them are symbol fonts, or generally "vector elements to be used for drawing" 2014-06-15T19:14:37Z Sir_herrbatka: so i will try to grab the iso 2014-06-15T19:15:33Z inklesspen left #lisp 2014-06-15T19:15:34Z wz1000 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-15T19:16:13Z ustunozgur quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-15T19:17:18Z p_l: that said, the fonts need some work to be more usable, IMO 2014-06-15T19:17:24Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-15T19:17:38Z Shinmera quit (Quit: brb) 2014-06-15T19:17:45Z p_l: for example, figuring out the mapping between Genera names and X11 versions of the fonts 2014-06-15T19:19:31Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-15T19:19:39Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2014-06-15T19:19:56Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-15T19:20:45Z Sir_herrbatka: p_l: hmmm 2014-06-15T19:20:58Z Sir_herrbatka: maybe i will try to recreate it 2014-06-15T19:21:11Z Sir_herrbatka: awful lot of work though 2014-06-15T19:22:46Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-06-15T19:25:04Z zacharias quit (Quit: Bye!) 2014-06-15T19:27:37Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-15T19:28:07Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-15T19:28:20Z nand1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-15T19:29:09Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-06-15T19:32:52Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-06-15T19:35:58Z Sir_herrbatka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-15T19:36:14Z foreignFunction joined #lisp 2014-06-15T19:38:53Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-15T19:41:00Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-06-15T19:41:56Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-15T19:43:16Z nialo joined #lisp 2014-06-15T19:44:05Z dkcl: Any idea on how to use TTK (themed widgets) with LTK? 2014-06-15T19:44:27Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-15T19:45:45Z loke quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-15T19:48:31Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-15T19:49:36Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-15T19:51:58Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-15T19:54:02Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-15T19:54:42Z jackdaniel: when working with socket-based streams - any workaround for end-of-file exception after first successful message delivery? 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I'm trying to think if there's a similar easy way to build up a string from a possibly-nested list of strings in Common Lisp. 2014-06-15T21:52:32Z inklesspen: does that make sense? 2014-06-15T21:53:23Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-15T21:53:24Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-15T21:53:51Z phadthai: reminds me of bsd iovec, but there was no nesting :) 2014-06-15T21:54:06Z phadthai: and more internally, of bsd mbufs 2014-06-15T21:54:11Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-15T21:54:29Z phadthai: it's a nice idea 2014-06-15T21:55:11Z __prefect quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-15T21:55:35Z ustunozgur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-15T21:56:10Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-15T21:57:05Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-06-15T21:58:10Z phadthai: inklesspen: if implementing a custom lisp sequences library, it could support such as part of the accepted designator 2014-06-15T21:58:31Z inklesspen: yeah, no, i'm just pushing stuff into strings 2014-06-15T21:59:16Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-15T21:59:50Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-15T22:00:17Z ustunozgur quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-15T22:00:39Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-06-15T22:01:10Z inklesspen: i suppose with-output-to-string will do well enough for me 2014-06-15T22:01:39Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-15T22:03:23Z Guest213O3 joined #lisp 2014-06-15T22:03:43Z Guest213O3 is now known as Guest30035 2014-06-15T22:04:03Z phadthai: sure, or reduce/concat depending 2014-06-15T22:06:06Z phadthai: s/concat/concatenate/ 2014-06-15T22:06:28Z DataLinkDroid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-15T22:11:28Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-15T22:13:07Z theos joined #lisp 2014-06-15T22:20:37Z pjb: inklesspen: with-output-to-string has the problem that it builds a string, ie. it needs a buffer to copy the data into. If you use it recursively, you may need a lot of space and a lot of time to copy from string to string. 2014-06-15T22:21:48Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-15T22:21:49Z pjb: inklesspen: on the other hand, you can use I/O functions, to output text. But if I/O is intermixed with computation it becomes costly to re-issue the I/O calls. 2014-06-15T22:22:08Z inklesspen: i was hoping for a sort of lazy string building thing 2014-06-15T22:22:31Z pjb: inklesspen: so you may either build the I/O list manually, building a list of string (or I/O operations), or you could implement a gray stream class that would build this I/O list automatically from the I/O operations. 2014-06-15T22:23:12Z inklesspen: i'm actually still trying to figure out what gray streams are for 2014-06-15T22:23:15Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-15T22:23:27Z pjb: In any case, one difficulty is that in CL, STRING is not a standard-class, as most of CL is specified without CLOS. 2014-06-15T22:24:03Z pjb: So if that was important to your application, you would want to implement your own string class anyways. 2014-06-15T22:24:37Z pjb: Mixing data and "I/O" is also done with CLIM presentations, so you could also use that. 2014-06-15T22:24:41Z heddwch: I'm just wondering what's wrong with concatenating strings 2014-06-15T22:25:01Z pjb: It takes time and space. 2014-06-15T22:25:18Z pjb: It's not wrong, as long as you don't that recursively. 2014-06-15T22:25:22Z pjb: or iteratively. 2014-06-15T22:25:42Z pjb: (loop for string in strings do (setf result (concatenate 'string result string)) is very bad. 2014-06-15T22:26:51Z pjb: It is assumed that with-output-to-string would in general be more efficient in this case. If you don't have high expectations of your CL implementation, you can use instead com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.string:concatenate-strings 2014-06-15T22:27:07Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-15T22:28:06Z Shinmera quit (Quit: zzzZ) 2014-06-15T22:28:40Z stassats quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-15T22:29:40Z Rosario quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-15T22:30:17Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-15T22:30:37Z theos joined #lisp 2014-06-15T22:30:45Z heddwch: Ah, I haven't run across a place where I would use the former, but that's good to know about the latter, thanks 2014-06-15T22:33:21Z Rosario_ joined #lisp 2014-06-15T22:33:25Z dim: one of the best solutions is implemented in qmynd, thanks to stassats 2014-06-15T22:33:25Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-15T22:33:34Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-06-15T22:34:00Z dim: see https://github.com/qitab/qmynd/blob/master/src/wire-protocol/wire-packet.lisp#l181 2014-06-15T22:34:20Z dim: maybe it's the same thing as pjb's solution though 2014-06-15T22:34:27Z Rosario quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-15T22:34:29Z dim: somehow I wouldn't be surprised ;-) 2014-06-15T22:40:19Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-15T22:45:09Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-15T22:49:47Z Denommus quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-15T22:50:33Z Rosario_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-15T22:50:40Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-15T22:51:00Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-15T22:52:44Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-15T22:53:16Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-15T22:53:37Z JuanDaugherty: do I understand correctly that there's a complete build of genera that runs on linux if you can track down the stuff? 2014-06-15T22:53:55Z JuanDaugherty: 2.0 2014-06-15T22:53:56Z pjb: That's correct. 2014-06-15T22:54:04Z pjb: running in an alpha emulator. 2014-06-15T22:54:11Z JuanDaugherty: ah 2014-06-15T22:55:03Z Rosario quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-15T22:55:04Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2014-06-15T22:55:06Z JuanDaugherty: ty 2014-06-15T22:56:22Z klltkr_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2014-06-16T06:08:51Z drmeiste_: modify an existing object (array, slot etc) 2014-06-16T06:09:23Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-06-16T06:09:25Z mal_: setf, incf, set, multiple-value-setq ... 2014-06-16T06:09:38Z mal_: rplaca, rplacd 2014-06-16T06:09:41Z drmeiste_: but they are all built from setq 2014-06-16T06:09:53Z Bike: no they aren't. 2014-06-16T06:10:00Z mal_: setf/setq is fairly magical 2014-06-16T06:10:05Z Bike: how do you implement (setf aref) or (setf car) with setq? 2014-06-16T06:10:14Z mal_: since setq of symbol-macros has to expand into the appropriate setf 2014-06-16T06:10:41Z drmeiste_: Bike: Right - they have their own setters. 2014-06-16T06:10:52Z Bike: so, no setq-building-from 2014-06-16T06:10:55Z hitecnologys quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-16T06:11:36Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-06-16T06:11:57Z drmeiste_: Darn - I was hoping for a way to trace every write to memory. 2014-06-16T06:13:11Z Bike: you could also have variables and stuff stack-allocated, so even setq wouldn't "write to memory" 2014-06-16T06:18:58Z drmeiste_: I'm debugging my copying garbage collector - I'd love to print out the address and value of every write to memory. 2014-06-16T06:20:56Z Sir_herrbatka joined #lisp 2014-06-16T06:21:02Z eni quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-16T06:23:01Z JuanDaugherty: drmeiste_, modern debuggers have facilities for that tied to hardwar 2014-06-16T06:23:02Z JuanDaugherty: e 2014-06-16T06:23:16Z Okasu joined #lisp 2014-06-16T06:23:53Z JuanDaugherty: probably a misdirected desire though 2014-06-16T06:25:34Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2014-06-16T06:25:50Z JuanDaugherty grumbles: ain't no damn magic 2014-06-16T06:27:59Z doomlor__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-16T06:28:23Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2014-06-16T06:35:48Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T06:38:45Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-16T06:38:46Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-16T06:38:46Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-06-16T06:39:09Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-16T06:39:30Z tomaw quit (Ping timeout: 610 seconds) 2014-06-16T06:40:46Z tomaw joined #lisp 2014-06-16T06:43:25Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2014-06-16T06:43:34Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-16T06:44:01Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-16T06:44:17Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2014-06-16T06:44:50Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-16T06:52:03Z __prefect joined #lisp 2014-06-16T06:52:29Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2014-06-16T06:54:00Z genkinodenki: similar to how I can do (mapcar #'+ '(1 2) '(3 4)) can I somehow replace the second list with a single item, e.g. (foo #'+ '(1 2 3) 4) => (4 6 12) ? 2014-06-16T06:54:26Z Bike: (mapcar (lambda (x) (+ x 4)) '(1 2 3)) 2014-06-16T06:54:29Z xificurC joined #lisp 2014-06-16T06:54:37Z genkinodenki: asdfaldkj 2014-06-16T06:54:41Z genkinodenki: thanks 2014-06-16T06:57:44Z __prefect quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-16T06:58:29Z Puffin is now known as BitPuffin 2014-06-16T07:01:21Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-16T07:04:36Z zeebrah joined #lisp 2014-06-16T07:07:47Z jusss quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-16T07:11:18Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T07:11:45Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-16T07:13:34Z zRecursive left #lisp 2014-06-16T07:14:14Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-16T07:14:47Z jewel joined #lisp 2014-06-16T07:17:59Z doomlor__ joined #lisp 2014-06-16T07:18:13Z doomlord_1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-16T07:20:36Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-16T07:23:03Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T07:23:16Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-16T07:24:12Z Saigut_ joined #lisp 2014-06-16T07:24:27Z ramkrsna quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T07:25:02Z Beetny joined #lisp 2014-06-16T07:25:57Z Saigut quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-16T07:26:31Z prxq joined #lisp 2014-06-16T07:30:17Z ustunozgur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T07:31:23Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T07:32:20Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-16T07:32:33Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-16T07:33:00Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2014-06-16T07:33:24Z _danb_ quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-16T07:34:29Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-16T07:34:38Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-16T07:34:57Z aoh quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-16T07:35:16Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-16T07:40:14Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-06-16T07:40:41Z manfoo7 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T07:41:40Z lukego joined #lisp 2014-06-16T07:42:58Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-06-16T07:45:02Z arenz joined #lisp 2014-06-16T07:45:30Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-16T07:45:38Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-16T07:46:17Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-16T07:46:25Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-16T07:47:07Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-16T07:47:16Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-16T07:48:39Z DataLinkDroid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-16T07:53:14Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-16T07:53:30Z l_a_m joined #lisp 2014-06-16T07:59:12Z varjag joined #lisp 2014-06-16T07:59:35Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-06-16T07:59:46Z DataLinkDroid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-16T07:59:56Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-16T08:01:49Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2014-06-16T08:02:21Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-16T08:04:09Z Saigut joined #lisp 2014-06-16T08:04:51Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-06-16T08:04:56Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-16T08:05:05Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-16T08:07:33Z bocaneri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T08:07:42Z Saigut_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-16T08:10:08Z DataLinkDroid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-16T08:10:13Z DataLinkD2 joined #lisp 2014-06-16T08:11:16Z MjrTom quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-16T08:13:56Z aoh joined #lisp 2014-06-16T08:14:11Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-16T08:14:58Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2014-06-16T08:17:06Z znode joined #lisp 2014-06-16T08:19:02Z BitPuffin quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-16T08:19:17Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-16T08:19:38Z therik joined #lisp 2014-06-16T08:20:29Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-16T08:20:40Z znode quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-16T08:20:49Z bocaneri quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-06-16T08:21:49Z ustunozgur quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-06-16T08:23:06Z Sir_herrbatka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-16T08:24:36Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-16T08:24:50Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-16T08:25:36Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-16T08:25:43Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-16T08:26:51Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-16T08:27:01Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-16T08:27:21Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-16T08:28:33Z MjrTom quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T08:31:52Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-16T08:34:46Z shridhar joined #lisp 2014-06-16T08:36:28Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-06-16T08:39:53Z DataLinkD2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-16T08:39:59Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-16T08:40:08Z Hydan quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Why do you want to do that? 2014-06-16T09:24:30Z fourier: simply put, I want to have a package per class 2014-06-16T09:24:50Z fourier: and one of them is a base (mixin) class. 2014-06-16T09:24:56Z arenz joined #lisp 2014-06-16T09:25:02Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-06-16T09:25:16Z fourier: So I don't want to export all mixin methods in all derived classes 2014-06-16T09:25:31Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2014-06-16T09:26:40Z dim: maybe having a separate package per class is going to be boresome? 2014-06-16T09:27:19Z fourier: so if someone is using the package with derived class, it shall have an access to all methods of the base class (which is defined in separate package and used by package with derived class) 2014-06-16T09:27:39Z FracV joined #lisp 2014-06-16T09:28:03Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T09:28:07Z prxq: but all of the symbols used to name local variables in the methods' source will be exported too. 2014-06-16T09:28:19Z n0n0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T09:28:20Z prxq: causing conflicts and pollution. 2014-06-16T09:29:36Z fourier: yes, that is my I want only the exported symbols from base package be exported from derived package 2014-06-16T09:30:03Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-16T09:31:07Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-16T09:31:49Z Vivitron joined #lisp 2014-06-16T09:32:46Z Hydan quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-16T09:33:11Z fourier: it looks like do-external-symbols in 1st derived package could do the trick (export all external symbols from the very first package, like all exported defgenerics) 2014-06-16T09:39:34Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-16T09:41:33Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-06-16T09:47:36Z chenjf joined #lisp 2014-06-16T09:47:42Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-16T09:49:35Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-16T09:55:23Z fourier quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T09:55:57Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2014-06-16T09:56:41Z fourier` joined #lisp 2014-06-16T10:00:28Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2014-06-16T10:01:02Z ch077179 joined #lisp 2014-06-16T10:01:34Z Saigut_ joined #lisp 2014-06-16T10:02:07Z Saigut_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T10:02:33Z Saigut quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T10:03:39Z rszeno joined #lisp 2014-06-16T10:04:20Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-16T10:04:21Z monod joined #lisp 2014-06-16T10:06:23Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-16T10:07:01Z xvzf joined #lisp 2014-06-16T10:07:10Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T10:08:41Z xvzf: I see (lbody (none-of) zero) in common lisp-derived code. none-of is a function. What is the purpose of the parentheses around it? Not to evaluate? 2014-06-16T10:09:22Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-16T10:13:23Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2014-06-16T10:15:21Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-06-16T10:15:34Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-16T10:19:47Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-16T10:20:26Z sdemarre quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-16T10:20:38Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-16T10:23:40Z Sir_herrbatka joined #lisp 2014-06-16T10:24:03Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-06-16T10:27:27Z genkinodenki: to put none-of into a form so that the compiler knows to point from the symbol to function namespace because none-of is the first (and in this case, only) item in the list. without parentheses none-of would be looked up in the value namespace 2014-06-16T10:28:30Z fourier` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T10:28:38Z fourier` joined #lisp 2014-06-16T10:29:36Z DrCode quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T10:29:51Z ehu_ joined #lisp 2014-06-16T10:30:05Z DrCode joined #lisp 2014-06-16T10:30:51Z fourier` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-16T10:31:23Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-16T10:32:21Z pjb: xvzf: in lisp, () means operator application, ie. function call in case of a function, just like in any other programming language! 2014-06-16T10:33:00Z pjb: void(*)(void) f=none_of; vs. none_of(); /* <--- parentheses mean function call! */ 2014-06-16T10:33:21Z pjb: xvzf: so explain now why you look so surprised? 2014-06-16T10:36:49Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-16T10:36:50Z xvzf: pjb, this meant to be a list, without any function application 2014-06-16T10:37:25Z xvzf: genkinodenki, that makes sense, thanks 2014-06-16T10:41:11Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-16T10:42:13Z zwer_e joined #lisp 2014-06-16T10:42:15Z DrCode quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-16T10:42:15Z zwer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-16T10:42:17Z zwer_e is now known as zwer 2014-06-16T10:42:44Z rszeno: xvzf, then you can write (2 6) for example without geting an error? 2014-06-16T10:43:38Z yauz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T10:44:05Z xvzf: rszeno, I am new to lisp, 2014-06-16T10:44:21Z xvzf: my aim is mostly to _read_ and understand lisp code, not to write 2014-06-16T10:44:46Z xvzf: '(2 6) is the proper form for a list containing 2 and 6, right? 2014-06-16T10:44:57Z rszeno: you can't do one without another 2014-06-16T10:45:36Z rszeno: yes but is quated 2014-06-16T10:45:45Z DrCode joined #lisp 2014-06-16T10:46:33Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-16T10:48:06Z |3b|: xvzf: ' is a way to avoid evaluation of whatever is being quoted, in this case a list containing 2 and 6 2014-06-16T10:48:14Z antoszka: xvzf: that's where the code/data duality comes in. When you pass around the sourcecode, it's just a tree/list. Or a number of trees/lists (looking from the top-level point of view). 2014-06-16T10:48:45Z yauz joined #lisp 2014-06-16T10:48:56Z antoszka: xvzf: When you eval that tree of code is where the evaluation rules come in and (…) usually means operator application, as pjb says. 2014-06-16T10:49:31Z |3b|: technically '(2 6) is read as a list (quote (2 6)), containing the symbol QUOTE and the list (2 6), which when evaluated, produces the list (2 6) 2014-06-16T10:50:08Z |3b|: (list 2 6) would also evaluate to a list containing 2 and 6, as would a number of other forms 2014-06-16T10:50:44Z |3b|: which is appropriate depends on why you want a list like that, so there isn't really a "proper" form 2014-06-16T10:51:40Z xvzf: I come from the ML world and all this is a bit awkward for me 2014-06-16T10:53:37Z prxq: xvzf: are you following a book? (which one?) 2014-06-16T10:53:45Z monod quit (Quit: Quit) 2014-06-16T10:54:03Z nalkri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T10:55:00Z xvzf: prxq, practical common lisp, but at the very beginning 2014-06-16T10:55:51Z nalkri joined #lisp 2014-06-16T10:57:00Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-16T10:58:09Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-16T10:59:02Z xificurC: out of curiosity, anyone knows how many #lispers actually use lisp for a living? Is there another language the majority likes to use? 2014-06-16T10:59:05Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-16T11:00:02Z ustunozgur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T11:00:45Z pjb: The answer to the later question is no. 2014-06-16T11:01:10Z |3b| suspects js is a popular second choice, no idea if it is anywhere 'majority' though 2014-06-16T11:02:05Z xificurC: |3b|: interesting, why do you think js? 2014-06-16T11:02:12Z dlowe: Go is my second favorite. It's pretty much the opposite of lisp on every dimension 2014-06-16T11:02:28Z |3b|: because it provides access to a particular common platform 2014-06-16T11:05:12Z |3b| could easily be overestimating the number of people who care about programming for that particular platform 2014-06-16T11:06:45Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-16T11:08:16Z p_l: |3b|: falls under "necessary, regrettable atrocity" :> 2014-06-16T11:08:53Z |3b|: p_l: right, C would be my next guess for similar reasons 2014-06-16T11:09:05Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-16T11:10:26Z |3b|: though i guess the question was "likes to use", so possibly neither of those qualify :) 2014-06-16T11:11:26Z nalkri: js is useful for its ubiquity certainly 2014-06-16T11:11:41Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Exit IRC/Hibernate) 2014-06-16T11:11:41Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-16T11:12:10Z nalkri: It's about the only language you can pretty much guarantee having a runtime for 2014-06-16T11:12:36Z p_l: nalkri: only if you target a very specific platform, which pretty much wipes the argument, IMO 2014-06-16T11:13:00Z nalkri: p_l: any platform with a web browser though 2014-06-16T11:13:21Z Hydan` joined #lisp 2014-06-16T11:13:47Z ggole joined #lisp 2014-06-16T11:13:52Z p_l: nalkri: no, the web browser is the platform, often running on sucky slow devices. If your task for whatever reason doesn't fit with web browser, you're SOL 2014-06-16T11:14:05Z quasisane quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-16T11:14:33Z p_l: and yes, there's a lot of stuff that doesn't fit into browser (or where the browser is really sucky option, like on surprising amount of mobile devices) 2014-06-16T11:15:12Z doomlor__ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-16T11:16:48Z kcj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-16T11:17:43Z xificurC: I wish lisp ran everywhere 2014-06-16T11:18:38Z p_l sometimes finds it easier to get a lisp runtime than JS runtime... 2014-06-16T11:18:44Z sg|polyneikes joined #lisp 2014-06-16T11:19:04Z p_l: that reminds me that I should test building ECL on one of the weirder platforms (ABCL works on it already) 2014-06-16T11:20:53Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-16T11:21:40Z Rosario quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T11:22:01Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-16T11:22:07Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-16T11:22:27Z matko quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-16T11:22:41Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-16T11:22:54Z matko joined #lisp 2014-06-16T11:26:33Z Rosario quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T11:26:58Z fourier joined #lisp 2014-06-16T11:27:59Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-16T11:29:53Z joneshf-laptop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T11:30:09Z dmdr joined #lisp 2014-06-16T11:30:13Z xificurC: was tcl more used for programming/scripting a decade ago? 2014-06-16T11:30:56Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2014-06-16T11:31:24Z Xach: I suspect tcl's popularity has waned in 10 years, but it was not super-popular in 2004 either. 2014-06-16T11:33:15Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-16T11:34:48Z p_l: xificurC: 20 years ago, maybe 2014-06-16T11:34:48Z Rosario quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T11:35:01Z p_l: remember, we're in *second* decade of XXIst century :) 2014-06-16T11:35:23Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-16T11:35:32Z antoszka: Where Tcl was popular I'd say it's mostly Python/C# now (depending whether we're speaking about unix or windows). Neither for the better IMO. 2014-06-16T11:36:36Z Xach: I used Tcl for Expect, AOLserver, and Tk. 2014-06-16T11:36:39Z Xach: Never on its own. 2014-06-16T11:36:40Z xificurC: I just wanted to look into a good language alternatvie for linux scripting and hit into several comments about tcl 2014-06-16T11:37:10Z prxq: xificurC: you can use common lisp 2014-06-16T11:37:16Z dim: at some point in time TCL was having the market that lua has today 2014-06-16T11:37:19Z nialo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T11:37:31Z dim: e.g. it was the first PL available in PostgreSQL for stored procedures 2014-06-16T11:37:51Z Xach: Oh yeah! I *did* use pl/tcl. 2014-06-16T11:38:03Z rszeno: is used in sqlite too 2014-06-16T11:38:06Z dim: we now have pl/python and pl/perl by default too 2014-06-16T11:38:10Z xificurC: prxq: would you write cl to backup files, clean up unused files, start/stop processes 2014-06-16T11:38:27Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-06-16T11:38:32Z prxq: no, for that I'd use bash, tbh :-) 2014-06-16T11:38:38Z dim: we have a pl/scheme using guile, but it badly needs updating, doesn't work with current versions neither of PostgreSQL nor guile 2014-06-16T11:38:44Z dim: and we don't have PL/CL yet 2014-06-16T11:39:10Z dim: I sometime fancy the idea on working on that, and/or PL/Erlang, but my days are only made of 24 hours 2014-06-16T11:39:16Z xificurC: hm, lighten me up, what is pl/x 2014-06-16T11:39:18Z dim . o O (excuses, excuses) 2014-06-16T11:39:30Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-16T11:39:44Z Xach: xificurC: language for stored procedures in postgresql 2014-06-16T11:39:55Z dim: PostgreSQL has a PL (Programming Language, Pluggagle Language) API wherein you can use any language to code your stored procedures 2014-06-16T11:40:15Z xificurC: prxq: and for something a bit more robust? something that would take you 1k lines of bash code, would you still write it in bash? 2014-06-16T11:40:25Z Rosario quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-16T11:40:25Z dim: pl/sh and pl/xstl are other examples ;-) 2014-06-16T11:40:41Z dim: xificurC: I'm now using CL also for scripting needs 2014-06-16T11:40:48Z prxq: xificurC: no, then I'd really use cl. 2014-06-16T11:40:59Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-16T11:41:13Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/ql-to-deb is an example of a project I could have tried doing in bash some years ago 2014-06-16T11:41:19Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-16T11:41:44Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2014-06-16T11:42:10Z prxq: xificurC: the word 'robust' really is appropriate in this context. Bash is very brittle. 2014-06-16T11:42:55Z dim: and remember, it's easier to port the perl interpreter than to port your shell script, said perl author 2014-06-16T11:43:58Z mdallastella quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-16T11:44:01Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-16T11:44:16Z mdallastella joined #lisp 2014-06-16T11:47:04Z Sgeo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-16T11:48:20Z Hydan` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T11:48:59Z Hydan quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-16T11:49:17Z xificurC: dim, pwxq: any resource/small project to point me to? I don't know how would I e.g. loop through a directory, start a process or accept command line arguments 2014-06-16T11:50:05Z dim: well, I think I just gave you one at https://github.com/dimitri/ql-to-deb, xificurC 2014-06-16T11:50:33Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T11:51:04Z xificurC: dim: ok thanks, I'll take a look 2014-06-16T11:55:45Z emma quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-16T11:58:55Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-06-16T12:00:28Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-16T12:01:19Z TDT` is now known as TDT 2014-06-16T12:03:47Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-16T12:08:52Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-16T12:09:09Z karupa is now known as zz_karupa 2014-06-16T12:09:51Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-16T12:11:47Z zeebrah quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-16T12:13:24Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-16T12:19:59Z zeebrah joined #lisp 2014-06-16T12:20:20Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T12:21:42Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-06-16T12:26:39Z sg|polyneikes quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-16T12:28:32Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-16T12:30:25Z aeth joined #lisp 2014-06-16T12:31:30Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-16T12:33:32Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-16T12:36:22Z ehu_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-16T12:38:08Z atgreen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T12:38:20Z quasisane joined #lisp 2014-06-16T12:41:02Z zickzackv joined #lisp 2014-06-16T12:46:17Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-16T12:46:51Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-16T12:47:30Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-16T12:48:09Z sroy_ joined #lisp 2014-06-16T12:50:17Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-06-16T12:51:37Z zolk3ri joined #lisp 2014-06-16T12:52:32Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-16T12:52:32Z zz_karupa is now known as karupa 2014-06-16T12:53:27Z dmdr quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Now with extra fish!) 2014-06-16T12:53:56Z karupa is now known as zz_karupa 2014-06-16T12:54:27Z arbscht quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-16T12:54:46Z pjb: It's not easier to port a perl interpreter rather than your perl scripts, because there are tens of versions of the perl language, so you will have to port tens of perl interpreters. Instead, my advice will be to write your scripts in Common Lisp, which hasn't changed since its standardization, so you will need only one CL implementation. 2014-06-16T12:55:30Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-16T12:56:02Z p_l: the compatibility between implementations was what finally brought me to CL from attempts at Scheme 2014-06-16T12:56:42Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-06-16T12:57:02Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-16T12:57:53Z ustunozgur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T12:58:48Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-16T12:59:42Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-16T12:59:46Z ustunozgur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T13:01:47Z tinyblak quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T13:02:14Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-16T13:03:09Z tinyblak_ joined #lisp 2014-06-16T13:04:33Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T13:06:19Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T13:06:23Z shifty quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-16T13:07:05Z tkhoa2711 quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-06-16T13:07:28Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-16T13:08:29Z ramkrsna quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-16T13:09:05Z sz0 joined #lisp 2014-06-16T13:09:58Z droven joined #lisp 2014-06-16T13:11:20Z droven: عاوز زب من الزقازيق 2014-06-16T13:11:51Z juanlas joined #lisp 2014-06-16T13:16:07Z pranavrc quit 2014-06-16T13:16:49Z tessier quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-16T13:17:10Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-06-16T13:17:19Z tessier joined #lisp 2014-06-16T13:17:19Z tessier quit (Changing host) 2014-06-16T13:17:19Z tessier joined #lisp 2014-06-16T13:19:09Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-06-16T13:19:46Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-16T13:21:55Z droven: عاوز زب من الزقازيق 2014-06-16T13:22:04Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-16T13:23:35Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-16T13:27:47Z hitecnologys: Kick the terrorist! 2014-06-16T13:28:46Z droven left #lisp 2014-06-16T13:29:02Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-16T13:29:47Z brucem: hitecnologys: really? 2014-06-16T13:31:23Z hitecnologys: brucem: no. 2014-06-16T13:31:48Z jusss quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-16T13:32:33Z tinyblak_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T13:36:19Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T13:38:35Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-16T13:41:21Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-16T13:41:46Z tinyblak_ joined #lisp 2014-06-16T13:42:02Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-16T13:43:49Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-16T13:44:25Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-16T13:45:28Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-16T13:46:24Z replcated joined #lisp 2014-06-16T13:49:09Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-16T13:49:47Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-06-16T13:50:33Z nalkri is now known as Guest45011 2014-06-16T13:52:06Z H4ns: hitecnologys: do you speak arab? 2014-06-16T13:52:19Z Guest45011 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-16T13:54:56Z hitecnologys: H4ns: unfortunately, I don't. 2014-06-16T13:55:26Z H4ns: hitecnologys: so you are a very silly person for associating "arab language" with "terrorist". 2014-06-16T13:55:46Z H4ns: or should i say dumb? 2014-06-16T13:55:50Z H4ns: anyway. g'day 2014-06-16T13:56:30Z hitecnologys: It was a bad joke. 2014-06-16T13:57:12Z hitecnologys: Something similar to "all Russians drink vodka and play with bears". 2014-06-16T13:57:12Z segv- joined #lisp 2014-06-16T13:57:17Z drmeiste_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T13:58:23Z jusss quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-16T13:59:45Z hitecnologys apologizes if he offended someone 2014-06-16T14:01:35Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-06-16T14:01:51Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-06-16T14:02:53Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-16T14:05:17Z dlowe: it would be funnier if there weren't an awful lot of people saying it in earnest. 2014-06-16T14:06:12Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-16T14:06:47Z patrickwonders quit (Quit: patrickwonders) 2014-06-16T14:07:35Z hitecnologys: A joke repeated twice becomes twice as funnier. 2014-06-16T14:08:37Z sg|polyneikes joined #lisp 2014-06-16T14:09:24Z clop2 joined #lisp 2014-06-16T14:10:00Z killmaster quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-16T14:11:39Z zwer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-16T14:12:01Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-16T14:12:12Z killmaster joined #lisp 2014-06-16T14:12:52Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T14:13:08Z mitc0185 joined #lisp 2014-06-16T14:13:13Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-06-16T14:13:46Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-16T14:14:03Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-06-16T14:15:22Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-16T14:17:22Z dlowe: a joke repeated a hundred times needs to stop 2014-06-16T14:18:33Z dbushenko quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T14:21:19Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T14:22:08Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-16T14:27:22Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-06-16T14:28:40Z p_l: a joke that is so badly encumbered by Poe's Law is too bad 2014-06-16T14:30:23Z galileopy joined #lisp 2014-06-16T14:30:36Z tali713 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-16T14:30:41Z dbushenko joined #lisp 2014-06-16T14:32:07Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-06-16T14:32:10Z drmeiste_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-16T14:32:30Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2014-06-16T14:32:30Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-06-16T14:33:28Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-16T14:33:42Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 2014-06-16T14:33:56Z Xach has set mode -o Xach 2014-06-16T14:34:30Z tali713 joined #lisp 2014-06-16T14:36:04Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-16T14:37:32Z mitc0185 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-16T14:38:34Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-16T14:39:09Z mitc0185 joined #lisp 2014-06-16T14:39:14Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-16T14:39:18Z tinyblak_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-16T14:40:50Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-16T14:41:09Z GGMethos quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 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not CIA. 2014-06-16T15:41:19Z H4ns: aha! 2014-06-16T15:41:19Z Shinmera quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T15:41:19Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T15:41:28Z killmaster quit (Changing host) 2014-06-16T15:41:28Z killmaster joined #lisp 2014-06-16T15:41:36Z drmeiste_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-16T15:41:38Z H4ns: can you take all that bullshit elsewhere? thank you so much 2014-06-16T15:41:46Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-16T15:41:51Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-16T15:41:55Z jusss quit (Changing host) 2014-06-16T15:41:55Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-16T15:42:03Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-16T15:42:26Z drmeiste_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T15:42:27Z pjb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aygSMgK3BEM AI in the 60s. 2014-06-16T15:42:28Z patrickwonders joined #lisp 2014-06-16T15:45:03Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T15:45:10Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-16T15:45:44Z jtza8 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It contains an introduction to CL with a reference, before jumping into AI algorithms. 2014-06-16T16:27:46Z genkinodenki: oh 2014-06-16T16:28:30Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-06-16T16:33:01Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-16T16:34:41Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2014-06-16T16:35:32Z n0n0 joined #lisp 2014-06-16T16:44:12Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-16T16:44:23Z doomlord_1 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-06-16T16:44:57Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-16T16:46:46Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-06-16T16:47:34Z drmeiste_: I don't have my copy of AMOP with me - is there a MOP function that provides the names of all subclasses of a class? 2014-06-16T16:47:49Z Okasu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T16:49:12Z pjb: class-direct-subclasses 2014-06-16T16:49:25Z drmeiste_: Thank you. 2014-06-16T16:49:25Z pjb: apply transitive closure. 2014-06-16T16:51:14Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 2014-06-16T16:51:55Z zeebrah quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-16T16:52:50Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-16T16:55:34Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T16:56:42Z flip214_: is there some non-locking, thread-safe list append (single cons cells) for SBCL? 2014-06-16T16:57:15Z zwer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-16T16:57:20Z flip214_: I tried sb-thread:atomic-update, but (cdr (last list)) would traverse multiple times. 2014-06-16T16:57:41Z flip214_: (Yes, I can try some closure, if that's supported by atomic-update ... which it most probably isn't.) 2014-06-16T16:57:46Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-16T16:58:53Z Nizumzen quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-16T17:01:27Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-16T17:02:21Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-06-16T17:03:41Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2014-06-16T17:04:08Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-06-16T17:04:15Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-06-16T17:04:49Z mrSpec quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-16T17:05:07Z Guest011O2 joined #lisp 2014-06-16T17:05:51Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-06-16T17:10:18Z knob quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-16T17:10:19Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T17:11:19Z zimri-lim quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T17:11:20Z JokerDoomWork joined #lisp 2014-06-16T17:12:19Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-16T17:12:47Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-06-16T17:16:15Z Shinmera-: http://shinmera.tymoon.eu/public/screenshot-2014.06.16-19:15:56.png 2014-06-16T17:16:20Z Shinmera- is now known as Shinmera 2014-06-16T17:16:35Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-16T17:16:43Z Shinmera: And I forgot to post this in here https://twitter.com/Shinmera/status/478209285806358530 2014-06-16T17:17:04Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T17:17:41Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-06-16T17:20:15Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T17:20:24Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-16T17:22:28Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-16T17:24:18Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-06-16T17:29:51Z Xach: cool! 2014-06-16T17:30:25Z Shinmera: I'm now hitting a couple of problems with the way my stuff is set up though. Particularly the history and how a curve is drawn is giving me trouble. 2014-06-16T17:31:20Z Shinmera: The history is simply too slow; currently on an undo I have to redraw all previous strokes I made, which can be very costly if there's a lot of them. 2014-06-16T17:31:45Z Shinmera: I'm not sure how to solve this though except for caching each history item as a whole, which I think would end up being too memory intensive. 2014-06-16T17:31:48Z Athlon3d quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )) 2014-06-16T17:32:02Z shridhar quit (Quit: shridhar) 2014-06-16T17:32:03Z zymurgy quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2014-06-16T17:32:04Z Shinmera: *Each point in history 2014-06-16T17:32:20Z zymurgy joined #lisp 2014-06-16T17:32:33Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-16T17:36:07Z zimri-lim joined #lisp 2014-06-16T17:39:49Z patrickwonders quit (Quit: patrickwonders) 2014-06-16T17:40:25Z Guest011O2 is now known as Guest01102 2014-06-16T17:40:47Z jasom: Shinmera: you could store a cache of reverse operations 2014-06-16T17:41:17Z Shinmera: jasom: I'm not sure what you mean by that 2014-06-16T17:41:36Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T17:41:41Z jasom: Shinmera: each time a change is made, store the operation to reverse the change. 2014-06-16T17:42:02Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-16T17:42:42Z Shinmera: I have no idea how I could go about that with something like painting ops. 2014-06-16T17:42:58Z cmatei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T17:43:22Z cmatei joined #lisp 2014-06-16T17:44:14Z |3b|: depending on size, you could cache some partially drawn images 2014-06-16T17:44:45Z juanlas joined #lisp 2014-06-16T17:44:46Z jasom: That's a good idea |3b| checkpoint every N ops, so you only have to replay up to N-1 history items 2014-06-16T17:44:51Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-16T17:45:13Z |3b|: probably better to split based on approximate time to redraw if possible 2014-06-16T17:45:14Z ck_: say I have renamed a slot, but need to read old data that has serialized objects with the old name in it. Can I create an 'alias' with the old name so that (slot-value x 'old-name) will access the new slot? 2014-06-16T17:45:21Z Shinmera: I was thinking that I could precalculate the last 10 or so history items in the back and compute more of those once you've undone something. 2014-06-16T17:45:29Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T17:46:04Z |3b|: also could try to figure out how much is affected by a particular op and only redraw that part 2014-06-16T17:46:29Z |3b|: though you'd need to be able to handle things that cover most of the screen anyway, so that is more of an optimization than a full solution 2014-06-16T17:46:36Z Shinmera: yeah 2014-06-16T17:47:01Z Shinmera: that's my problem with all the caching approaches, even if you tune it down to a minimum it's still very well possible that you need to cache huge regions 2014-06-16T17:47:48Z |3b|: though depending on your drawing operations, properly used opengl should be able to draw a lot of them pretty fast 2014-06-16T17:48:59Z jasom: Shinmera: there's no getting around the fact that if someone draws something complex, and then draws somethign complex on top of it, you need to store a lot. 2014-06-16T17:49:04Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T17:49:11Z jasom: mmap can be your friend 2014-06-16T17:49:25Z jasom: now that we have 48 bit address spaces anyway 2014-06-16T17:49:34Z |3b| should look into commonqt at some point, your tablet/drawing stuff seems to have progressed a lot faster/further than mine did... i mostly spent all my time trying to figure out xinput2 extension :p 2014-06-16T17:49:40Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-16T17:49:57Z Xach: There was a product in the 90s called Live Picture that claimed infinite undo, infinite layers, and worked great in 2014-06-16T17:50:07Z Xach: But I don't think it ever made it to market. Huge hype but no payoff that I remember. 2014-06-16T17:50:40Z Xach: I wonder if any papers or other useful ideas to recycle came from it 2014-06-16T17:51:04Z heddwch: I've implemented infinite undo before 2014-06-16T17:51:08Z heddwch: in a towers of hanoi game 2014-06-16T17:51:09Z heddwch: =p 2014-06-16T17:51:27Z jasom: finite ram is easy 2014-06-16T17:51:33Z jasom looks at his hard-drive 2014-06-16T17:52:33Z Shinmera quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T17:53:23Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-16T17:53:56Z Shinmera: Stupid net connection. 2014-06-16T17:54:16Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2014-06-16T17:54:21Z Shinmera: Anyway, I was asking mostly because I was wondering if things like Photoshop/Gimp had some kind of smart trick up their sleeves that I didn't think of 2014-06-16T17:54:51Z Shinmera: |3b|: I was first going to write a tablet input library, but then I luckily discovered that Qt had tablet support out of the box, so 2014-06-16T17:55:18Z |3b|: yeah, sdl2 would be another option at this point i think 2014-06-16T17:55:36Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-06-16T17:55:37Z Zhivago: I suspect that a generational layer approach might work nicely. 2014-06-16T17:57:09Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-16T17:59:19Z Shinmera quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T17:59:29Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-16T17:59:55Z patrickwonders joined #lisp 2014-06-16T18:00:50Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-06-16T18:02:27Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-16T18:02:27Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-06-16T18:02:27Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-16T18:03:14Z zimri-lim quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-16T18:04:21Z foreignFunction joined #lisp 2014-06-16T18:04:40Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-16T18:04:41Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-16T18:04:43Z zimri-lim joined #lisp 2014-06-16T18:04:54Z sheilong joined #lisp 2014-06-16T18:05:06Z Shinmera: Zhivago: What exactly do you mean by that? 2014-06-16T18:05:18Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-16T18:06:17Z swflint joined #lisp 2014-06-16T18:06:31Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T18:06:39Z Zhivago: Well, consider the probability of an undo upon a given operation as being proportional to its age/depth. 2014-06-16T18:07:04Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-16T18:07:13Z Zhivago: When the probability drops below the threshold of the current layer, you can consolidate it into the layer below. 2014-06-16T18:07:23Z foom: isn't the undo stack normally only able to be accessed in order? 2014-06-16T18:07:57Z Shinmera: foom: Photoshop and all let you undo many things at once, but yes, it's incremental so to speak. 2014-06-16T18:08:14Z Zhivago: Sure, but a given point in the stack represents the incremental construction of the state to that point. 2014-06-16T18:08:21Z Shinmera: Zhivago: I'm sorry; I don't quite follow what this would mean for this 2014-06-16T18:08:46Z Zhivago: Then ask a question. 2014-06-16T18:09:11Z Shinmera: Well, the problem is that I need to paint it onto a 2D canvas in the end 2014-06-16T18:09:27Z |3b|: sounds like what i meant, cache partially drawn frames, so you only need to draw the parts between a cached version and current state 2014-06-16T18:09:32Z Zhivago: Sure, now think of your picture as composition of N layers. 2014-06-16T18:09:47Z Shinmera: I already do, I don't see how that helps. 2014-06-16T18:09:49Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T18:09:51Z Zhivago: In the trivial case N would be the same number as your number of operations. 2014-06-16T18:10:14Z Zhivago: However, you can consolidate multiple operations into a given layer. 2014-06-16T18:10:45Z Zhivago: The cost being that if you want to undo into such a layer, you'd need to re-render it into multiple layers. 2014-06-16T18:10:49Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T18:11:12Z |3b|: helps because you don't need to redraw entire frame when you undo, just ops since last cached version that didn't include the undone op 2014-06-16T18:11:13Z Shinmera: So what you're saying is bundle multiple history items into one and only break it up as needed? 2014-06-16T18:11:21Z Zhivago: So, if you structure those layers against the probability of an undo operation penetrating it ... 2014-06-16T18:11:25Z Zhivago: Right. 2014-06-16T18:11:31Z Shinmera: Hmm 2014-06-16T18:11:52Z Zhivago: And the deeper you go, the lower the probability of breaking, and the greater the cost-effective consolidation. 2014-06-16T18:12:41Z FracV quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-16T18:13:00Z FracV joined #lisp 2014-06-16T18:13:04Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-16T18:13:12Z |3b| would either do something like 1/2, 3/4, 7/8, etc which would give you (almost) fixed memory cost, or N milliseconds of drawing time per cached layer, which i guess could be fixed space also if you updated both ends 2014-06-16T18:14:53Z varjag_ joined #lisp 2014-06-16T18:15:20Z Shinmera: I'll have to think about this for a while, but that might actually be what I was looking for 2014-06-16T18:15:24Z Shinmera: Thanks a bunch for chiming in! 2014-06-16T18:15:38Z Zhivago: You're welcome. 2014-06-16T18:18:28Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-16T18:18:45Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-06-16T18:18:47Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-16T18:19:58Z scharan quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2014-06-16T18:20:36Z Shinmera quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T18:22:25Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T18:22:37Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-16T18:26:16Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-16T18:28:45Z bocaneri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-16T18:30:47Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-16T18:31:01Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-16T18:34:23Z fourier joined #lisp 2014-06-16T18:34:48Z swflint quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-16T18:35:17Z KCL_ joined #lisp 2014-06-16T18:36:12Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-16T18:37:00Z jolw joined #lisp 2014-06-16T18:38:15Z KCL 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reset by peer) 2014-06-16T20:03:19Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-16T20:04:38Z tinyblak quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T20:06:05Z jasom: Has anyone done any benchmarking of serialization libraries? I was wondering if any of them are fast enough for IPC when multiprocessing. 2014-06-16T20:06:28Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-16T20:07:15Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-16T20:07:49Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-16T20:08:23Z orthecreedence: i have not, although in the near future i might be looking for a good/fast format for IPC 2014-06-16T20:10:02Z orthecreedence: right now i'm just using json (yason) because it's the easiest 2014-06-16T20:10:06Z flounders quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T20:10:21Z orthecreedence: and super easy to debug 2014-06-16T20:11:16Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-16T20:11:27Z jtz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-16T20:11:45Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T20:14:41Z aksr quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-16T20:14:54Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-16T20:17:08Z mhd joined #lisp 2014-06-16T20:17:14Z rpg: Is there a tutorial or worked example for CFFI-GROVEL somewhere? I think there was when it was not integrated, but I don't know where to find it anymore... 2014-06-16T20:17:25Z jolw left #lisp 2014-06-16T20:17:43Z rpg: The discussion in the manual isn't really enough to make it clear to me what CFFI-GROVEL does for me... 2014-06-16T20:21:04Z Sir_herrbatka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-16T20:21:38Z prxq: I sometimes think that where lisp really excells at is at die-hard programming. When you don't have the time to refactor, and have to keep duct-taping over old, bad ideas - no other language will be as perversely helpful and lenient as good old common lisp. 2014-06-16T20:21:49Z |3b|: cffi-grovel uses a C compiler to determine things like actual layout of structs, values of constants, etc on a particular platform 2014-06-16T20:22:00Z sg|polyneikes joined #lisp 2014-06-16T20:22:07Z jasom: orthecreedence: well I can tell you right now that tnetstrings are much faster than yason, while still almost plain text (if you send binary data, it's binary so that's the "almost") 2014-06-16T20:22:46Z orthecreedence: thanks for the tip, haven't heard of that format. how's the javascript support? 2014-06-16T20:23:06Z jasom: orthecreedence: https://github.com/piranha/tnetstrings.js/ 2014-06-16T20:23:13Z jasom: haven't used it myself 2014-06-16T20:23:20Z jasom: just googled for "javascript tnetstrings" 2014-06-16T20:23:27Z orthecreedence: ok right 2014-06-16T20:23:36Z orthecreedence: i'll definitely give this a look! 2014-06-16T20:23:49Z orthecreedence: i am going to be sending binary data, so this may be a great help 2014-06-16T20:23:54Z rpg: |3b|: I kind of get that, but I look at the description of its syntax, and what I need to write without it, and it's not obvious what exact gap it's filling. 2014-06-16T20:23:56Z jasom: oh, and tnetstrings suck for sending floats 2014-06-16T20:24:00Z mishoo quit (Quit: (save-lisp-and-die)) 2014-06-16T20:24:02Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T20:24:07Z orthecreedence: also good to know 2014-06-16T20:24:18Z jasom: if you need precise float serialize/deserialze, just convert to a binary format first 2014-06-16T20:24:36Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-16T20:24:38Z orthecreedence: ok 2014-06-16T20:24:47Z rpg: For float serialize/deserialize, you might want Google Protobuf. 2014-06-16T20:25:03Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T20:25:15Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-16T20:25:16Z orthecreedence: i was thinking of protobufs as well, but didn't want a full binary format until my debugging phase is over and i switch over to optimization 2014-06-16T20:25:17Z |3b|: rpg: mostly useful for things like system APIs, where something like posix specifies that certain members exist in a struct, but not what order, or whether there are others or whatever, so you can't just define a lisp version of the struct 2014-06-16T20:25:54Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-16T20:25:57Z rpg: |3b|: Right -- I was typing: I *think* what's going on is that without cffi-grovel, my foreign structure definition has to line up perfectly with the header file, but CFFI-grovel does the lineup for me. 2014-06-16T20:26:30Z |3b|: sounds more or less right 2014-06-16T20:26:30Z klltkr_ joined #lisp 2014-06-16T20:26:49Z |3b|: with cffi-grovel you also don't need to define the entire structure, just the parts you need 2014-06-16T20:28:08Z |3b|: well, i suppose that is also true without cffi-grovel, but assigning offsets by hand sounds error prone and hard to maintain 2014-06-16T20:28:20Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2014-06-16T20:29:30Z rpg: I think the manual chapter needs an introduction that gives the structure offsets as a good example. Also a worked example would really help -- the syntax isn't enough, at least for me to figure out the semantics. 2014-06-16T20:29:35Z heddwch is now known as headwitch 2014-06-16T20:29:37Z rpg: I've always used SWIG up till now. 2014-06-16T20:31:09Z |3b|: for the cases where cffi-grovel is most useful, you would need to run swig on every target platform (possibly for each version), which may or may not be a problem 2014-06-16T20:31:12Z ikki quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-16T20:31:27Z kcj quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-16T20:32:16Z mhd quit (Ping timeout: 185 seconds) 2014-06-16T20:32:31Z mhd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-16T20:32:36Z orthecreedence: can swig even inspect the inside of structs? 2014-06-16T20:32:43Z emma joined #lisp 2014-06-16T20:32:57Z orthecreedence: i've run into problems where you have struct dog { int teeth[256]; } 2014-06-16T20:33:24Z orthecreedence: and swig just calls teeth a pointer (so if you instantiate the struct, you have a size of 4 instead of 1024) 2014-06-16T20:33:31Z mhd joined #lisp 2014-06-16T20:33:48Z orthecreedence: err sorry, not inspect the inside of structs, i mean codify arrays 2014-06-16T20:34:13Z |3b| hasn't used swig, so no idea 2014-06-16T20:35:21Z |3b|: i mostly used verrazano and hand edited, would probably try c2ffi and hand edit now 2014-06-16T20:37:13Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-06-16T20:37:15Z headwitch is now known as heddwch 2014-06-16T20:37:20Z rpg: |3b|: I've been using SWIG and hand-editing. I get how to go from SWIG + hand-editing to working CFFI. But I don't know how to go from SWIG + hand-editing to CFFI-grovel, which would be really helpful. 2014-06-16T20:37:47Z |3b|: i thought i'd used cffi-grovel at some point, but can't seem to find it now :/ 2014-06-16T20:37:56Z rpg: Just about anything with a fat API seems like you would want something to avoid hand-writing the whole API, and CFFI-GROVEL seems like it would leave most of the FFI specs to the writer. 2014-06-16T20:38:07Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-16T20:38:14Z |3b|: yeah 2014-06-16T20:38:19Z jtz joined #lisp 2014-06-16T20:38:23Z rpg: I.e. SWIG + hand-editing == brittle; CFFI-GROVEL == !brittle but back-breaking amount of typing. 2014-06-16T20:38:38Z sroy_ quit (Quit: Quitte) 2014-06-16T20:38:51Z innertracks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T20:39:03Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T20:40:14Z rpg: E.g., CUDD (Colorado U Decision Diagram) .h file run through SWIG gives 3300+ lines, which is a lot more than I'd like to write for CFFI-grovel. 2014-06-16T20:40:34Z rpg: But CUDD does evolve, so it would be great to be more robust. 2014-06-16T20:40:48Z |3b|: well, you only need the parts you actually use with cffi-grovel, which might not be the whole thing if you only expose high-level wrappers 2014-06-16T20:40:58Z jasom: rpg: make swig generate cffi-grovel code? 2014-06-16T20:41:38Z jasom: rpg: or just use cffi-grovel for struts 2014-06-16T20:41:41Z rpg: |3b|: Right, but it is too hard to pull out the high level stuff from the C header file -- it's easier to start with SWIG lisp and then prune. 2014-06-16T20:41:43Z jasom: s/struts/structs 2014-06-16T20:42:15Z rpg: jasom: I think you're right -- some bridge from SWIG to CFFI-GROVEL would be great. 2014-06-16T20:42:20Z jasom: or you can go the iolib route and write your own fixed API 2014-06-16T20:42:27Z jasom: and then target that from lisp 2014-06-16T20:42:45Z rpg: I'm not really a C hacker anymore -- it's been too many years. 2014-06-16T20:42:52Z mhd quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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What happens if e.g. the C code has switched stacks for some reason? 2014-06-16T21:35:14Z prxq: jasom: usually, the C side stops when it calls into lisp, and keeps the stack freezed until the lisp function returns. Maybe I did not understand your question. 2014-06-16T21:35:15Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-16T21:37:20Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T21:37:59Z jasom: prxq: I've seen native code that manually allocates a C stack (via malloc or mmap) for some reason (either to implement concurrency, or just because the default stack size is typically too small). What will happen if code that has done this calls back into lisp? Will sbcl be confused? 2014-06-16T21:38:57Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-16T21:39:58Z prxq: i see. Well, I don't know. Sorry. 2014-06-16T21:41:17Z jasom: Time to dig through source, I guess. 2014-06-16T21:42:04Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-16T21:42:21Z edgar-rfx quit (Quit: memory access stopped into paranoid vacuum) 2014-06-16T21:43:21Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-16T21:45:20Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T21:45:51Z zwer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-16T21:46:02Z zwer_u joined #lisp 2014-06-16T21:46:27Z DrCode quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-16T21:46:31Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-16T21:47:53Z seangrov` joined #lisp 2014-06-16T21:48:33Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T21:48:34Z seangrov` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T21:49:15Z seangrove quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T21:49:34Z arbscht joined #lisp 2014-06-16T21:49:38Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-16T21:51:41Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T21:52:14Z DrCode joined #lisp 2014-06-16T21:52:55Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T21:53:30Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-16T21:55:22Z mhd quit (Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-16T21:55:30Z zwer_u is now known as zwer 2014-06-16T21:56:04Z mhd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-16T21:57:36Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-16T22:00:06Z therik quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-16T22:01:26Z dkcl: Why is ASDF3 disliked by some? 2014-06-16T22:02:34Z oGMo: there are some annoyances, i think, plus some thing requiring it before it was distributed with sbcl, which was annoying too 2014-06-16T22:02:45Z oGMo: and i don't know what it actually improves 2014-06-16T22:03:09Z mhd joined #lisp 2014-06-16T22:03:13Z drmeiste_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-16T22:03:13Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-16T22:04:22Z oGMo: that is, it doesn't seem to do much for basic use, so it mostly seems like fixing what ain't broke 2014-06-16T22:05:20Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-16T22:08:04Z vlnx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-16T22:08:16Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-16T22:10:51Z Shinmera: layer opacity and modes as well as brush modes. http://shinmera.tymoon.eu/public/screenshot-2014.06.17-00:10:14.png 2014-06-16T22:11:04Z vlnx joined #lisp 2014-06-16T22:12:13Z Shinmera: Hmm, I now realise I don't even need to add a clipping layer mode since alpha lock will do just fine. 2014-06-16T22:12:24Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-16T22:16:06Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-16T22:16:15Z Sgeo joined #lisp 2014-06-16T22:16:17Z segv- quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-16T22:17:30Z karswell joined #lisp 2014-06-16T22:17:51Z c74d quit (Quit: Upgrading IRC client…) 2014-06-16T22:17:57Z jasom: prxq: answer everything but the GC is fine with it. If you exit the callback without the GC running then life is good, otherwise, boom. 2014-06-16T22:21:33Z jasom: which makes sense, the gc needs to walk the stack to find roots. 2014-06-16T22:21:44Z oGMo: what goes boom? 2014-06-16T22:22:09Z jasom: oGMo: FFI to C; C code moves the stack; call into lisp 2014-06-16T22:22:33Z oGMo: moving the stack sounds like a terrible idea heh 2014-06-16T22:22:57Z drmeiste_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-16T22:24:07Z jasom: man 3 swapcontext 2014-06-16T22:26:10Z oGMo: that doesn't matter 2014-06-16T22:26:40Z jasom: oGMo: not saying that it's not a terrible idea, just pointing out that people do it. 2014-06-16T22:27:02Z prxq: fortunately, they do it rather rarely. 2014-06-16T22:27:06Z oGMo: i mean, without some explicit support in your CL, it sounds like trouble .. esp since i don't think SBCL conforms to the ABI, but not entirely sure 2014-06-16T22:27:11Z oGMo: jasom: sure 2014-06-16T22:27:27Z prxq: anyway, C and lisp do not go well with each other. 2014-06-16T22:27:32Z jasom: oGMo: sbcl conforms to the ABI at the entry and exit points of sb-alien 2014-06-16T22:27:39Z jasom: oGMo: internally it doesn't 2014-06-16T22:27:44Z oGMo: prxq: eh .. C and some lisp implementations :p 2014-06-16T22:28:01Z c74d joined #lisp 2014-06-16T22:28:11Z oGMo: jasom: that's what i would assume, so i could definitely see that going boom 2014-06-16T22:28:20Z prxq: a lot of C code is designed to crash on error. Little if any facilities for cleanup are present. 2014-06-16T22:28:27Z oGMo: bad C code heh 2014-06-16T22:28:34Z prxq: oGMo: like gtk 2014-06-16T22:28:42Z oGMo: gtk does not crash on error by default 2014-06-16T22:28:44Z prxq: it's actually very common 2014-06-16T22:28:46Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2014-06-16T22:28:52Z jasom: oGMo: like I said, it's fine so long as the GC doesn't get involved 2014-06-16T22:29:00Z prxq: but neither does it expect you to recover 2014-06-16T22:29:02Z oGMo: most glib-based stuff does not assert(3) but uses its own error system 2014-06-16T22:29:15Z prxq: right. fuck the rest of the world 2014-06-16T22:29:28Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2014-06-16T22:29:30Z oGMo: you don't know what you're talking about 2014-06-16T22:29:44Z prxq: sorry, i know very well what i'm talking about 2014-06-16T22:29:47Z oGMo: and being disingenuous is just silly 2014-06-16T22:29:57Z prxq: oGMo: what is wrong with you? 2014-06-16T22:30:08Z Longlius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T22:30:12Z jasom: prxq: C code that crashes on error is either bad c code, or a program that expects to be relaunched on crash. 2014-06-16T22:30:23Z oGMo: which is bad 2014-06-16T22:30:40Z jasom: prxq: A c library that doesn't provide any error reporting and recovery is a c library that I will not use. 2014-06-16T22:30:41Z prxq: i agree it is bad 2014-06-16T22:31:13Z jasom: oGMo: I don't care too much how entire programs internally handle errors, so long as the program does what I want. Libraries are another issue altogether. 2014-06-16T22:31:34Z oGMo: jasom: yeah .. sadly some things still think assert is a valid way to handle errors (llvm, grumble) 2014-06-16T22:31:58Z oGMo: actually now that i think about the build process for thta, those may be optional 2014-06-16T22:32:22Z Longlius joined #lisp 2014-06-16T22:33:04Z mhd quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-16T22:33:14Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-16T22:33:28Z prxq: one of the main dificulties when writing lisp bindings for c libs is that they are not built to recover from the huge onslaught of errors that is typical of interactive development. 2014-06-16T22:34:27Z jasom: unsafe code and interactive development in general doesn't work well. 2014-06-16T22:34:42Z Shinmera quit (Quit: ZzzZ) 2014-06-16T22:35:21Z oGMo: the main problem i have (and gtk/glib fail _here_) is macro-heavy code heh 2014-06-16T22:35:48Z phax quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-16T22:35:50Z jasom: get a type declaration wrong once in sbcl code with (safety 0) and you likely need to restart your image. 2014-06-16T22:36:17Z oGMo: write a bad recursive function and you need to restart sbcl :P 2014-06-16T22:36:18Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-16T22:36:33Z heddwch: Protip: Don't use safety 0 is you want safety 2014-06-16T22:36:37Z heddwch: s/is/if/ 2014-06-16T22:36:43Z prxq: oGMo: that's not my experience 2014-06-16T22:37:02Z oGMo: there are sadly numerous easy ways to make SBCL become highly unstable or crash writing normal code with default safety 2014-06-16T22:37:17Z jasom: heddwch: I don't want safety; I'm pointing out that calling C code is analagous to (safety 0) 2014-06-16T22:37:31Z heddwch: jasom: Oh, then 100% correct, carry on :) 2014-06-16T22:37:46Z prxq: oGMo: that would be bugs 2014-06-16T22:38:05Z jasom: oGMo: really? I've infinite recursed and recovered many times 2014-06-16T22:38:21Z prxq: it's definitively not my experience 2014-06-16T22:38:29Z oGMo: jasom: it recovers but often behaves erratically after 2014-06-16T22:39:10Z oGMo: often doing the same thing twice will just segfault and crash it 2014-06-16T22:39:40Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T22:40:06Z prxq: oGMo: the same thing? (+ 1 1) twice? 2014-06-16T22:40:46Z jasom: prxq: I think he means (defun foo () (declare (optimize (speed 0) (debug 3))) (foo)) then calling foo twice in a row 2014-06-16T22:41:21Z oGMo: obviously ;p 2014-06-16T22:41:23Z jasom: oGMo: in slime that does appear to mess things up, but not from the repl 2014-06-16T22:41:43Z oGMo: except, no need for declares, and not just the trivial case 2014-06-16T22:42:22Z jasom: oGMo: without the declares it seems to optimzie the tail call in the trivial case 2014-06-16T22:42:28Z oGMo: jasom: yeah threading may have something to do with it, not sure .. but i run into stuff like that often enough it's a problem heh 2014-06-16T22:42:29Z fragamus joined #lisp 2014-06-16T22:43:20Z jasom: No, I think it's because slime tries to call lisp code from the error handler 2014-06-16T22:43:25Z prxq: oGMo: funnily, I never run into that kind of stuff. 2014-06-16T22:43:28Z Gooder quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-16T22:43:30Z jasom: and that executes with the control stack disabled 2014-06-16T22:43:44Z isBEKaml left #lisp 2014-06-16T22:43:57Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-16T22:44:13Z jasom: control stack gurad disabled that is 2014-06-16T22:44:18Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T22:44:20Z oGMo: prxq: write more code ;p 2014-06-16T22:44:45Z oGMo: jasom: could be 2014-06-16T22:44:53Z soapscum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T22:45:07Z effy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-16T22:46:25Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2014-06-16T22:47:20Z fantazo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T22:49:20Z MoALTz__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-16T22:50:07Z jasom: oGMo: (handler-bind ((sb-kernel::binding-stack-exhausted-error #'(lambda (c) (invoke-restart 'abort)))) (foo)) <-- that will work as many times as you like 2014-06-16T22:50:23Z jasom: oGMo: perhaps swank or slime needs an update 2014-06-16T22:50:30Z mhd joined #lisp 2014-06-16T22:51:07Z jasom: You can blow the stack safely on sbcl (As long as it's by no more than a page) you just can't run any significant amount of lisp code once you have. 2014-06-16T22:51:07Z oGMo: probably 2014-06-16T22:51:44Z oGMo: i can see swank/slime doing that i guess, but still, annoying to do that for every given function heh 2014-06-16T22:51:59Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-16T22:52:20Z oGMo: that's just one "normal code" crash 2014-06-16T22:52:35Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-16T22:52:52Z ustunozgur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-16T22:54:06Z jasom: That should happen in the slime REPL implementation 2014-06-16T22:54:09Z oGMo: jasom: actually an option in swank to auto-abort on interactive calls like that would be pretty nice 2014-06-16T22:54:32Z oGMo: well typically i eval or compile, not use the repl, but yeah 2014-06-16T22:55:13Z oGMo: not something i run into so often it's been an issue, and i'm using CCL at the moment for another 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timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-17T00:55:00Z jxv quit (Quit: QUIT) 2014-06-17T00:56:36Z MoALTz__ joined #lisp 2014-06-17T00:58:02Z slyrus: drmeister: I forgot/didn't know you are a chemistry prof. what do you work on? (we've probably discussed this before and I've probably forgotten...) 2014-06-17T00:58:48Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2014-06-17T00:59:48Z DrCode quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-17T00:59:52Z MoALTz_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-17T01:00:06Z DrCode joined #lisp 2014-06-17T01:01:27Z MoALTz__ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-17T01:02:09Z Bike: i think it was http://www.foresight.org/about/2005Feynman.html? definitely neat 2014-06-17T01:03:38Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-17T01:08:50Z kpreid quit (Quit: Quitting) 2014-06-17T01:11:58Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-17T01:12:50Z Bike_ joined #lisp 2014-06-17T01:14:52Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-17T01:19:04Z _schulte_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-17T01:19:24Z zolk3ri quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-17T01:21:13Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2014-06-17T01:22:21Z huza joined #lisp 2014-06-17T01:24:53Z sheilong quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-17T01:25:31Z ovidnis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-17T01:26:24Z sheilong joined #lisp 2014-06-17T01:26:38Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-06-17T01:27:28Z ovidnis joined #lisp 2014-06-17T01:28:06Z innertracks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-17T01:36:12Z Fare joined #lisp 2014-06-17T01:37:01Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-17T01:38:08Z MjrTom quit (Quit: Planet Earth is blue, and there's nothing I can do) 2014-06-17T01:40:34Z ustunozgur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-17T01:41:11Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-17T01:42:09Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-17T01:43:14Z mitc0185 joined #lisp 2014-06-17T01:45:55Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-17T01:46:06Z Bike_ is now known as Bike 2014-06-17T01:47:50Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-17T01:48:21Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-17T01:48:28Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-17T01:48:46Z fragamus quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-17T01:52:07Z _schulte_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-17T01:52:38Z drmeiste_: It is done. Clasp now has compacting garbage collection using the Memory Pool System from Ravenbrook. 2014-06-17T01:53:11Z Vivitron` joined #lisp 2014-06-17T01:55:47Z Bike: congrat 2014-06-17T01:56:33Z Vivitron quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-17T01:57:08Z heddwch: heh clasp, like the name 2014-06-17T01:57:15Z heddwch: I like* 2014-06-17T01:58:32Z tinyblak_ joined #lisp 2014-06-17T01:58:50Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-17T01:58:58Z drmeiste_: http://imgur.com/ZX6q9fo 2014-06-17T01:59:15Z patrickwonders quit (Quit: patrickwonders) 2014-06-17T01:59:25Z Zhivago: Nifty. 2014-06-17T01:59:27Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-17T01:59:28Z heddwch: heh 2014-06-17T02:01:18Z drmeiste_ is disappointed in google after spending 5 whole minutes looking for an appropriate party gif. What is this 1995? 2014-06-17T02:01:27Z tinyblak quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-17T02:01:52Z clop2 joined #lisp 2014-06-17T02:02:52Z Guest01102 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-17T02:02:58Z kpreid joined #lisp 2014-06-17T02:03:00Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-17T02:03:19Z drmeiste_: I don't want to get too excited - I'm just compiling my Common Lisp code from scratch. It's the most stringent test of the system I have. 2014-06-17T02:03:23Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-17T02:05:06Z tinyblak_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-17T02:05:17Z JuanDaugherty: like political party? 2014-06-17T02:05:21Z JuanDaugherty: a 2014-06-17T02:05:36Z heddwch: Click the link. 2014-06-17T02:06:10Z chu joined #lisp 2014-06-17T02:06:20Z eudoxia: the Common Lisp Party is a single-issue party that advocates rewriting all government code in Common Lisp 2014-06-17T02:06:57Z klltkr_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-17T02:07:34Z JuanDaugherty: minion is just the current cl-irc? 2014-06-17T02:07:58Z JuanDaugherty: (or whatever that ql downloads) 2014-06-17T02:08:03Z zimri-lim quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-17T02:08:08Z heddwch: Probably something built on it =p 2014-06-17T02:09:31Z drmeiste_: eudoxia: Now that's a platform I could stand behind. That and converting to the metric system. 2014-06-17T02:09:52Z eudoxia: drmeiste_: free Lisp Machines for everyone 2014-06-17T02:09:59Z optikalmouse quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-17T02:10:06Z drmeiste_: I just became a US citizen last week - I had to give up the metric system. Sniff. 2014-06-17T02:10:31Z JuanDaugherty: from where? 2014-06-17T02:11:23Z drmeiste_: Hint: Not Liberia or Myanmar. 2014-06-17T02:12:29Z drmeiste_: More precisely - Canada. 2014-06-17T02:12:31Z echo-area joined #lisp 2014-06-17T02:13:21Z Bike: JuanDaugherty: i think the running minion is different from the "example" in cl-irc 2014-06-17T02:13:27Z JuanDaugherty: easier thant the other direction 2014-06-17T02:14:34Z Longlius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-17T02:14:57Z optikalmouse joined #lisp 2014-06-17T02:15:01Z JuanDaugherty: k, so I'll just presume an unknown gap between the publicly available codeset and that proprietary to 2014-06-17T02:15:12Z JuanDaugherty: common-lisp.net 2014-06-17T02:15:55Z Bike: JuanDaugherty: https://github.com/stassats/lisp-bots though 2014-06-17T02:16:00Z araujo joined #lisp 2014-06-17T02:16:00Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2014-06-17T02:16:00Z araujo joined #lisp 2014-06-17T02:16:20Z Bike: minion: advice on asshole? 2014-06-17T02:16:20Z minion: #11999: You are a stupid asshole. Shut the fuck up. 2014-06-17T02:16:23Z Bike: how nice. 2014-06-17T02:16:27Z JuanDaugherty: Bike, ty 2014-06-17T02:16:37Z fragamus joined #lisp 2014-06-17T02:17:43Z fragamus quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-17T02:18:10Z klltkr_ joined #lisp 2014-06-17T02:18:14Z JuanDaugherty could walk to Jianada, it's about 1 click due west of here 2014-06-17T02:18:31Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2014-06-17T02:19:22Z optikalmouse quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-17T02:20:07Z JuanDaugherty: unless you did it for love, people will think less of you for a contra costa move like that, so I'd keep it to myself 2014-06-17T02:20:10Z drmeiste_: Someone taught minion to swear? It's Watson and the Urban Dictionary all over again. 2014-06-17T02:21:45Z mitc0185 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-17T02:22:18Z Zhivago: Why did you switch from Canada to the US? 2014-06-17T02:23:30Z mitc0185 joined #lisp 2014-06-17T02:24:20Z eudoxia quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-17T02:27:58Z klltkr_ quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-17T02:30:11Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2014-06-17T02:30:55Z optikalmouse joined #lisp 2014-06-17T02:31:00Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2014-06-17T02:33:20Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-17T02:33:50Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-17T02:34:04Z chu quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-17T02:35:25Z chu joined #lisp 2014-06-17T02:36:29Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-17T02:44:16Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-17T02:46:50Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-17T02:47:33Z mitc0185 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-17T02:48:10Z araujo joined #lisp 2014-06-17T02:48:10Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2014-06-17T02:48:10Z araujo joined #lisp 2014-06-17T02:51:44Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-17T02:54:04Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-06-17T02:54:30Z mitc0185 joined #lisp 2014-06-17T02:57:20Z MjrTom quit (Quit: Planet Earth is blue, and there's nothing I can do) 2014-06-17T03:01:59Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2014-06-17T03:02:10Z drmeiste_: Zhivago: My wife and I have been in the US for about 19 years and at the rate the human body replaces cells - we are completely made out of American matter. 2014-06-17T03:03:01Z heddwch: Dirty immigrants 2014-06-17T03:03:05Z heddwch: Stay on your side of the river 2014-06-17T03:03:49Z drmeiste_: Seriously though - our daughter was born in the US and I didn't want there to be any distance between us. 2014-06-17T03:04:13Z drmeiste_: While I find much of the politics of the US deplorable I feel good about most of the principles the country was founded on. 2014-06-17T03:04:19Z heddwch: Immigrants breeding here, too! Damnit 2014-06-17T03:08:56Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-06-17T03:10:11Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-17T03:14:52Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-17T03:16:21Z cpc26 quit 2014-06-17T03:19:33Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-17T03:21:41Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-17T03:22:45Z Zhivago: Damned immigrants, raising the live expectancy statistics ... 2014-06-17T03:23:04Z pjb: and the IQ level too. 2014-06-17T03:23:38Z heddwch: Uh, guys. Supposed to be a joke. A large portion of this country spews that crap about immigrants from the South. Nobody cares about the immigrants from the North. 2014-06-17T03:24:13Z pjb: minion: memo for eudoxia: then the CLP, should promote writing an Ada compiler in Common Lisp, for legacy government code. 2014-06-17T03:24:13Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell eudoxia when he/she/it next speaks. 2014-06-17T03:24:44Z pjb: heddwch: which given Earth is a sphere, could be the same people. 2014-06-17T03:24:49Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2014-06-17T03:25:06Z heddwch: pjb: I have no problem with either =p 2014-06-17T03:25:30Z Vivitron joined #lisp 2014-06-17T03:25:32Z heddwch: PS: Canada is not separated from the US by a river 2014-06-17T03:25:33Z pjb: In any case, I would rather emigrate to Russian than USA. It's my Snowden side… 2014-06-17T03:26:40Z pjb: There's an inversion of values between USA and Russia, since the fall of communism. 2014-06-17T03:27:20Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-17T03:27:27Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-17T03:27:54Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-17T03:28:21Z Vivitron` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-17T03:30:43Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-17T03:34:54Z Longlius joined #lisp 2014-06-17T03:35:20Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-17T03:36:51Z araujo joined #lisp 2014-06-17T03:38:01Z MjrTom`-` joined #lisp 2014-06-17T03:38:01Z MjrTom quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-17T03:38:12Z MjrTom`-` is now known as MjrTom 2014-06-17T03:40:32Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-17T03:40:41Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2014-06-17T03:41:22Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-17T03:42:56Z Saigut_ joined #lisp 2014-06-17T03:43:06Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-17T03:44:35Z girrig quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-17T03:45:28Z arbscht quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-17T03:50:30Z girrig joined #lisp 2014-06-17T03:53:53Z Fare: drmeiste_, some cells do not get replaced. Average replacement rate does not apply to them. 2014-06-17T03:54:47Z Zhivago: Tendons are one example. 2014-06-17T03:56:13Z Bike: you know, the guy works in biochemistry, i think you can give him some slack on the joke 2014-06-17T03:56:52Z drmeiste_ starts crying 2014-06-17T03:58:30Z JuanDaugherty: where I live Mei Guo and Jianada are in fact separated by a river, at the bottom of a deep gorge 2014-06-17T03:58:35Z drmeiste_: All fun and games aside - I appear to have a loose pointer or something. In a moving garbage collector - shudder. 2014-06-17T03:58:37Z heddwch: #lisp is... not conducive to jokes =/ 2014-06-17T03:59:13Z JuanDaugherty: drmeiste_, are you the one doing an ECL fork ? 2014-06-17T03:59:20Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-06-17T03:59:33Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-17T03:59:51Z drmeiste_: JuanDaugherty: I suppose you could call it that since I use the ECL Common Lisp source code. 2014-06-17T04:00:04Z ltbarcly quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-17T04:02:13Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-17T04:02:23Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-17T04:02:32Z orthecreedence joined #lisp 2014-06-17T04:05:31Z ltbarcly quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-17T04:06:09Z dandersen joined #lisp 2014-06-17T04:06:17Z orthecreedence left #lisp 2014-06-17T04:07:05Z fantazo joined #lisp 2014-06-17T04:07:18Z orthecreedence joined #lisp 2014-06-17T04:07:44Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-17T04:08:23Z JuanDaugherty: i did a port of AKCL to OS/2 so at one point was same codeset 2014-06-17T04:08:35Z JuanDaugherty: c. 22 ya 2014-06-17T04:10:19Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-17T04:13:00Z Fare joined #lisp 2014-06-17T04:13:12Z Saigut joined #lisp 2014-06-17T04:16:40Z Saigut_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-17T04:17:37Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2014-06-17T04:18:25Z MjrTom quit (Quit: Planet Earth is blue, and there's nothing I can do) 2014-06-17T04:18:34Z Saigut left #lisp 2014-06-17T04:18:55Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-17T04:20:53Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-17T04:21:05Z ltbarcly quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-17T04:21:40Z housel quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-17T04:22:04Z housel joined #lisp 2014-06-17T04:23:42Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-17T04:24:01Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-17T04:29:00Z arbscht joined #lisp 2014-06-17T04:29:32Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-17T04:30:15Z karswell joined #lisp 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I thought it should return (#\0 #\0 #\0 #\0 #\1), but it only returns (#\1) http://pastie.margaine.com/11e7bbdb-c5f3-450d-9eae-855b9196ba4b 2014-06-17T07:51:09Z Ralt: I'm pretty sure there's something I don't get with `do`... 2014-06-17T07:52:02Z H4ns: why don't you use loop? 2014-06-17T07:52:16Z H4ns: do is rarely a readable alternative to do 2014-06-17T07:52:33Z Ralt: I'm not against doing that using loop 2014-06-17T07:52:36Z H4ns: ... to loop 2014-06-17T07:52:48Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2014-06-17T07:52:51Z Ralt: it just seemed more fit for this case 2014-06-17T07:52:52Z harish joined #lisp 2014-06-17T07:52:58Z Ralt: I don't know loop enough... barely the basics 2014-06-17T07:55:25Z Ralt: that said... I have the same issue :-) http://pastie.margaine.com/cfe6751c-bd87-4932-8022-cf9bde4cd78c 2014-06-17T07:55:51Z Ralt: it looks like the list is immutable? but I'd get an error when cons'ing 2014-06-17T07:56:01Z H4ns: you're not using the result of cons 2014-06-17T07:56:26Z Ralt: oh right, it creates a new list 2014-06-17T07:56:29Z Ralt: my bad! 2014-06-17T07:57:03Z Ralt: heh, a simple setf and it's fixed... 2014-06-17T07:57:27Z ggole quit 2014-06-17T07:57:37Z kushal quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-17T07:58:40Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-17T07:58:49Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-06-17T07:58:51Z ggole joined #lisp 2014-06-17T07:58:55Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-06-17T08:00:04Z ch077179 joined #lisp 2014-06-17T08:00:21Z Ralt: H4ns: thanks! 2014-06-17T08:04:01Z interlocutor quit (Quit: Technocracy now!) 2014-06-17T08:05:05Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-17T08:05:05Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-17T08:05:35Z tinybl___ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-17T08:09:12Z jaimef quit 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Sometimes my brain goes crazy. 2014-06-17T09:15:19Z doomlor__ joined #lisp 2014-06-17T09:15:41Z tinybla__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-17T09:16:34Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-17T09:22:00Z banana123 joined #lisp 2014-06-17T09:22:42Z huza quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-17T09:32:04Z DrCode quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-17T09:33:16Z DrCode joined #lisp 2014-06-17T09:34:08Z kcj_ joined #lisp 2014-06-17T09:36:08Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-17T09:38:04Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-17T09:38:04Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-06-17T09:38:04Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-17T09:40:17Z attila_lendvai quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-17T09:41:06Z kcj_ quit (Quit: kcj_) 2014-06-17T09:41:36Z rune1 joined #lisp 2014-06-17T09:41:40Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-06-17T09:45:40Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-17T09:46:06Z araujo joined #lisp 2014-06-17T09:49:25Z hlavaty joined #lisp 2014-06-17T09:51:37Z ustunozgur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-17T09:54:31Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-06-17T09:56:04Z zickzackv joined #lisp 2014-06-17T09:56:21Z kanru quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-17T09:59:37Z ufd quit (Quit: ufd) 2014-06-17T10:02:14Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-06-17T10:03:34Z scharan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-17T10:04:05Z f-a_ joined #lisp 2014-06-17T10:06:05Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-17T10:09:49Z kanru joined #lisp 2014-06-17T10:10:38Z therik joined #lisp 2014-06-17T10:12:15Z scharan joined #lisp 2014-06-17T10:16:23Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-17T10:17:05Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-17T10:22:04Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-17T10:22:26Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-17T10:23:47Z theos quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-17T10:24:04Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-17T10:24:54Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-17T10:24:55Z theos joined #lisp 2014-06-17T10:25:23Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-17T10:25:50Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-17T10:25:58Z ustunozgur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-17T10:29:08Z kcj_ joined #lisp 2014-06-17T10:31:04Z kcj quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-17T10:34:34Z doomlor__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-17T10:34:57Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-06-17T10:41:27Z ramkrsna quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-17T10:44:14Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-17T10:46:12Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-17T10:47:49Z JuanDaugherty: hitecnologys, was it lisp related? Don't wanna bother looking it up if not 2014-06-17T10:48:51Z Zhivago: It was terrorism related. 2014-06-17T10:49:13Z hitecnologys: JuanDaugherty: no, not at all. You may safely ignore what I said if you didn't see it. 2014-06-17T10:50:13Z JuanDaugherty: ah ok, yeah not interested in that. Most interested in lisp OS related stuff. 2014-06-17T10:54:04Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-17T10:54:05Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2014-06-17T10:54:05Z ramkrsna quit (Changing host) 2014-06-17T10:54:05Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2014-06-17T10:54:13Z hitecnologys: Anything interesting going on with LispOS? Haven't heard news about it for motnths. (maybe I just wasn't listening properly) 2014-06-17T10:54:15Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-17T10:55:51Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-17T10:57:50Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-17T10:59:05Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-06-17T10:59:59Z schoppenhauer: what is lispOS? 2014-06-17T11:00:30Z schoppenhauer: something like movitz? 2014-06-17T11:01:14Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-17T11:01:40Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-17T11:02:26Z FracV joined #lisp 2014-06-17T11:04:27Z hitecnologys: schoppenhauer: sort of. There's also one that many people has been writing for years. I can't remember all the names but I do remember beach, mathrick and pjb (not sure) used to talk about some developmental progress. 2014-06-17T11:04:37Z hitecnologys: s/has/have/ 2014-06-17T11:05:44Z schoppenhauer: ok 2014-06-17T11:05:46Z JuanDaugherty: i learned here in last few days that it's possible to run the genera 2 images on linux but was stopped 2014-06-17T11:05:54Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-17T11:06:01Z JuanDaugherty: by the info it was under an alpha emulator 2014-06-17T11:06:19Z JuanDaugherty: didn't even bother to ask why it wasn't a lispm emulator 2014-06-17T11:07:44Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-17T11:08:01Z JuanDaugherty: which would have been better but still candy-ass 2014-06-17T11:08:26Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-06-17T11:09:02Z hitecnologys: Even if we could run Genera, it's still not, as far as I know, open source so nobody but its developers can support and update it. 2014-06-17T11:11:47Z f-a_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-17T11:12:07Z ramkrsna quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-17T11:15:26Z JuanDaugherty: that's doubtless false, presume what you mean is only they can distribute such commercially 2014-06-17T11:15:44Z pjb joined #lisp 2014-06-17T11:16:08Z pjb is now known as Guest17712 2014-06-17T11:16:38Z Zhivago: Or, perhaps, legally. 2014-06-17T11:16:42Z hitecnologys: I guess it depends on the license. 2014-06-17T11:17:10Z Guest17712 is now known as pjb` 2014-06-17T11:17:18Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2014-06-17T11:17:32Z hitecnologys: But generaly, yes, I agree with you. 2014-06-17T11:21:57Z JuanDaugherty: also presume the answer to why not is there isn't a lispm emulator available 2014-06-17T11:22:35Z Zhivago: The other reason is that they're horribly obsolete. 2014-06-17T11:24:24Z JuanDaugherty: lisp machines are 2014-06-17T11:24:37Z JuanDaugherty: in principle 2014-06-17T11:25:06Z JuanDaugherty: because commodity archs 2014-06-17T11:25:17Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2014-06-17T11:25:17Z ramkrsna quit (Changing host) 2014-06-17T11:25:17Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2014-06-17T11:25:24Z Zhivago: Um, more because of the passage of time. 2014-06-17T11:25:38Z hitecnologys: The idea of Lisp machines is not so dead though. Now we have plenty of language-specific processors. 2014-06-17T11:26:06Z Zhivago: Can you enumerate them? 2014-06-17T11:27:34Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-17T11:27:52Z ustunozg_ joined #lisp 2014-06-17T11:28:01Z hitecnologys: Not by names but I know that Sun made hardware JVM implementation and there were also C-processor. That's pretty much all I can remember but I'm sure there are more. Not many compared to x86/x64 but still something. 2014-06-17T11:28:29Z Zhivago: So, by plenty you mean 'some pretty much dead jvm cpus' and probably forth. 2014-06-17T11:28:32Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-17T11:28:59Z hitecnologys: Yes. 2014-06-17T11:28:59Z Zhivago: If anything language-specific procesors are more of a niche market than they were back then. 2014-06-17T11:31:13Z ustunozgur quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-17T11:34:51Z JuanDaugherty: everything old is new agin 2014-06-17T11:34:55Z kcj_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-17T11:35:17Z JuanDaugherty: i was surprised to hear The Mill mentioned in a haskell channel a few weeks back 2014-06-17T11:37:04Z JuanDaugherty: user microprogrammability will doubtless make a comeback at some point 2014-06-17T11:37:24Z Zhivago: What does that have to do with the mill processor design? 2014-06-17T11:37:53Z hitecnologys: The Mill? 2014-06-17T11:38:01Z JuanDaugherty: nothing actually, you've heard of The Mill? I hadn't before a personal communication with godard 2014-06-17T11:38:33Z Zhivago: Sure. 2014-06-17T11:38:33Z hitecnologys: I haven't heard of it. What is this Mill thing? Googling doesn't seem to give anything specific. 2014-06-17T11:38:47Z Zhivago: "mill cpu architecture" 2014-06-17T11:38:50Z JuanDaugherty: try out of the box computing 2014-06-17T11:39:10Z mal_: will probably succumb to the same vliw compiler problem that killed itanium 2014-06-17T11:39:15Z hitecnologys: Aha, found it. 2014-06-17T11:39:16Z Zhivago: I suspect that the next major shift will be to get rid of cpus. 2014-06-17T11:39:56Z JuanDaugherty: CACM i think had a related article on that in last month or so 2014-06-17T11:40:11Z JuanDaugherty: why post c. '05 we don't have many cores 2014-06-17T11:40:29Z JuanDaugherty: as Intel and others were predicting then 2014-06-17T11:40:49Z hitecnologys: Huh, sounds interesting. 2014-06-17T11:42:02Z JuanDaugherty preens self that in the lisp crazy he's sort of conservative 2014-06-17T11:42:11Z hitecnologys: Zhivago: you mean replace CPUs by a number of smaller and more specialized chips? 2014-06-17T11:42:33Z Zhivago: I mean to replace CPUs with programmable hardware, rather than running everything through an interpreter. 2014-06-17T11:43:15Z JuanDaugherty: zounds like user microprogrammability to me 2014-06-17T11:43:32Z hitecnologys: Well, PLDs are less efficient for general tasks than modern CPUs. 2014-06-17T11:43:38Z Ralt: I'm not sure I follow your discussion, but aren't you guys talking about FPGA? 2014-06-17T11:43:58Z hitecnologys: Ralt: no. FPGA is a different thing. 2014-06-17T11:44:05Z Zhivago: FPGA is a first step toward programmable hardware. 2014-06-17T11:44:09Z Ralt: well, it's a programmable cpu 2014-06-17T11:44:13Z Zhivago: juan: No, it doesn't. 2014-06-17T11:44:32Z hitecnologys: Ralt: as far as I know, FPGA is not a programmable CPU. 2014-06-17T11:44:58Z JuanDaugherty: Zhivago, I still have your Hanzi heuristic stuck in my craw 2014-06-17T11:45:01Z Zhivago: Given that we're not talking about programmable CPUs, that isn't a problem. 2014-06-17T11:45:09Z Zhivago: Which Hanzi heuristic? 2014-06-17T11:45:54Z JuanDaugherty: it's just a confused and ossified bolus at this point, something to do with korean phonetics iirc 2014-06-17T11:46:05Z Ralt: hitecnologys: hm, I misread then 2014-06-17T11:46:22Z hitecnologys: Zhivago: there's this SoC thing. Heard of it? 2014-06-17T11:46:30Z Zhivago: Um. Hanzi isn't Korean. 2014-06-17T11:46:40Z gendl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-17T11:46:46Z Zhivago: I don't know -- what does SoC stand for? 2014-06-17T11:46:48Z hitecnologys: Ralt: FPGAs are programmable chips but they can't act on their own as they lack certain functions. 2014-06-17T11:46:58Z hitecnologys: Zhivago: system on a chip. 2014-06-17T11:47:06Z JuanDaugherty: right for a while now, like 500 y oder 2014-06-17T11:47:31Z Zhivago: hitech: That's just packing the current approach in smaller. 2014-06-17T11:47:45Z Sgeo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-17T11:47:51Z tinyblak quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-17T11:48:16Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-17T11:48:20Z Ralt: hitecnologys: what do you mean "act on their own"? 2014-06-17T11:48:26Z hitecnologys: Zhivago: nevertheless, they are quite handly and comfortable to work with compared to more usual approach. 2014-06-17T11:48:40Z hitecnologys: Ralt: I mean replace CPU completely. 2014-06-17T11:49:13Z gendl joined #lisp 2014-06-17T11:49:18Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-17T11:49:19Z hitecnologys: Ralt: it may be possible but I don't think that's what they were designed for. 2014-06-17T11:49:37Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-17T11:49:53Z Ralt: ok 2014-06-17T11:50:19Z ramus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-17T11:50:23Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-17T11:53:22Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-17T11:54:27Z pjb: Zhivago: it's not passage of time. Take a lisp machine (or any newest computer you want), put it on a space ship, go travel for 20 years: your computer will still be as good as new (modulo physical decay). Probably even better, since you're a programmer. 2014-06-17T11:56:46Z ramus joined #lisp 2014-06-17T11:57:53Z Zhivago: Except that it won't be as good as new, since new will have another 20 years of research in it. 2014-06-17T11:58:09Z hitecnologys: More than 20. 2014-06-17T11:58:55Z pjb: hitecnologys: it's not a good idea to replace a CPU with a number of separate chips. You could use another architecture on the same chip if you want (eg. a GPU), but it's better to keep everything close on the same chip. 2014-06-17T11:59:56Z pjb: IBM is working on 3D chips too. 2014-06-17T12:00:09Z hitecnologys: pjb: that was exactly my idea. Having everything on one silicon wafer is significantly more efficient and fast than having it on multiple. There's a cooling problems with that but it's still a better idea. 2014-06-17T12:01:13Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-17T12:01:50Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-17T12:01:52Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-17T12:01:53Z hitecnologys: pjb: I also saw IBM using liquids (vandium oxide solution, IIRC) to transport both power to chip and heat out of it (similar to what blood does). 2014-06-17T12:02:39Z hitecnologys: s/vandium/vanadium/ 2014-06-17T12:03:04Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-17T12:03:28Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-17T12:03:39Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-17T12:05:19Z ustunozg_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-17T12:06:27Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-17T12:08:41Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-17T12:19:44Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-17T12:19:57Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2014-06-17T12:20:46Z ndrei_ joined #lisp 2014-06-17T12:21:04Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-17T12:21:05Z zymurgy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-17T12:26:42Z nydel_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-17T12:26:45Z tinyblak quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-17T12:27:43Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-17T12:29:10Z guaqua` joined #lisp 2014-06-17T12:29:17Z ustunozgur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-17T12:31:02Z guaqua quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-17T12:31:11Z Sir_herrbatka joined #lisp 2014-06-17T12:32:34Z ndrei_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-17T12:32:35Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-17T12:33:24Z ndrei_ joined #lisp 2014-06-17T12:36:28Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-17T12:38:26Z karupa is now known as zz_karupa 2014-06-17T12:39:26Z c3w joined #lisp 2014-06-17T12:40:21Z rune1_ joined #lisp 2014-06-17T12:41:02Z rune1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-17T12:41:02Z rune1_ is now known as rune1 2014-06-17T12:46:06Z pjb: hitecnologys: also, check HP The Machine. 2014-06-17T12:46:34Z rune1 quit (Quit: rune1) 2014-06-17T12:48:10Z hitecnologys: pjb: memristor is a nice thing. 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hlavaty: Ralt: no, dont iterate. 2014-06-17T17:19:56Z Ralt: any reason? 2014-06-17T17:19:56Z Xach: I think it's fine to use loop for simple loops, and to break up the problem rather than write hairy loop forms. 2014-06-17T17:20:00Z hlavaty: Ralt: iterate is a bad idea 2014-06-17T17:20:21Z hlavaty: yes, for example it walks code 2014-06-17T17:20:38Z Ralt: it "walks code"? 2014-06-17T17:20:44Z segv-: being able to write a macro which expands into an iterate clause is not a horrible thing 2014-06-17T17:20:51Z Gooder` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-17T17:21:03Z segv-: if your looping logic is super hairy it's going to be super hairy wih cl:loop or with iterate 2014-06-17T17:21:13Z segv-: at least iterate plays nicer (a little bit) with paredit 2014-06-17T17:21:31Z Ralt: Xach: iterate looks like a simple loop replacement, it's not a matter of using hairy loop forms or not 2014-06-17T17:21:54Z segv-: i find iterate's documentation much much more approachable than anything similar i can find on loop 2014-06-17T17:21:59Z hlavaty: iterate is inherently unportable, it needs to know about "every" implementation specific form in order to walk them 2014-06-17T17:22:09Z segv-: hlavaty: that is a solvable problem 2014-06-17T17:22:10Z _death: Ralt: http://adeht.org/usenet-gems/one-function.txt 2014-06-17T17:22:16Z segv-: (and a solved problem in most cases) 2014-06-17T17:22:52Z hlavaty: also, if you become unlucky and some other lib tries to walk the code; you are screwed 2014-06-17T17:23:15Z hlavaty: segv-: solvable by manual labor, chasing slowly moving target 2014-06-17T17:23:21Z Ralt: _death: again, that's not the issue here 2014-06-17T17:23:22Z Bike: _death: nice. 2014-06-17T17:23:23Z segv-: that's a real problem (but not a problem i've actually had) 2014-06-17T17:23:31Z FracV quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-17T17:23:44Z drmeister quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2014-06-17T17:23:49Z segv-: hlavaty: you're correct of course, but i have never had the problem of iterate blowing up because it couldn't walk some implementation specific form 2014-06-17T17:23:56Z FracV joined #lisp 2014-06-17T17:24:40Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-17T17:24:48Z segv-: and at least iterate has documented 'what is is the value of the bindings in finally clauses' 2014-06-17T17:24:56Z segv-: so it's not like loop is 100% portable either 2014-06-17T17:25:12Z hlavaty: i see lots of warnings from iterate not understanding some forms, it's annoying and unnecessary 2014-06-17T17:25:14Z Xach: _death: aww, the parent directory is not indexed? 2014-06-17T17:26:09Z _death: Xach: TBD :) 2014-06-17T17:26:30Z _death: Xach: in the meanwhile the root page has links 2014-06-17T17:26:37Z _death: *meantime 2014-06-17T17:27:09Z drmeiste_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-17T17:27:12Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-17T17:27:21Z segv-: hlavaty: but anyway, iterate was never supposed to be a better loop, it was supposed to be an extensible loop. and in the respect it does what it claims to do. 2014-06-17T17:27:34Z cpc26: is anyone doing or knowing about a common lisp SDK for PubNub? 2014-06-17T17:28:02Z Oddity quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-17T17:28:33Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-06-17T17:30:06Z hlavaty: Ralt: i would recommend to use the simplest possible form that does the job readably (e.g. dolist dotimes do maphash map loop if necessary, or custom macro to collect from deeper levels for example and only if necessary, use iterate 2014-06-17T17:30:51Z Ralt: hlavaty: oh I already use dolist/dotimes/loop/map* 2014-06-17T17:31:10Z Ralt: but loop is quite often used for its flexibility tbh 2014-06-17T17:31:47Z hlavaty: another great thing is to create generators/streams instead of looping 2014-06-17T17:31:50Z Ralt: and I'm annoyed by loop's indentation. iterate sounds like a good solution, plus it looks way more lispy than loop 2014-06-17T17:32:15Z Ralt: hlavaty: this interests me. Any resource? 2014-06-17T17:33:39Z gniourf quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-17T17:33:50Z shridhar joined #lisp 2014-06-17T17:34:29Z gniourf joined #lisp 2014-06-17T17:35:22Z _death: Ralt: for example http://cliki.net/series 2014-06-17T17:36:00Z Ralt: _death: thanks 2014-06-17T17:36:24Z shridhar quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-17T17:37:08Z hlavaty: Ralt: create a closure for your particular problem, which returns values in sequence for each call, then funcall/consume/process those values; i dont have a trivial example atm but for idea see for example http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SameFringeProblem although it's not trivial and clear 2014-06-17T17:37:11Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-17T17:38:10Z Oddity joined #lisp 2014-06-17T17:38:24Z hlavaty: problem with loops is that one have to maintain indices, from generators/streams one simply pulls the right data at the right moment 2014-06-17T17:38:52Z hlavaty: you can even implement whole web app like this :-D 2014-06-17T17:39:40Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-06-17T17:40:49Z Ralt: sounds like the definition of "lazy" 2014-06-17T17:43:26Z Vivitron joined #lisp 2014-06-17T17:43:27Z foreignFunction joined #lisp 2014-06-17T17:48:55Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-17T17:52:21Z avery quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-17T17:53:46Z hugoduncan is now known as hugod 2014-06-17T17:55:31Z inklesspen joined #lisp 2014-06-17T17:57:01Z inklesspen left #lisp 2014-06-17T18:01:08Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-06-17T18:02:04Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-17T18:05:08Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-17T18:06:19Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-17T18:11:09Z Ralt: hlavaty: after reading a bit about it, it sounds like I'd need a lib like cl-cont to not worry too much about it. Or am I missing something in your explaination? 2014-06-17T18:11:10Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-17T18:13:18Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2014-06-17T18:14:38Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-06-17T18:15:29Z _death: Ralt: there's a newly-quicklispable library called cl-coroutine.. it can be used for generators 2014-06-17T18:17:25Z Ralt: _death: thanks, looking into that. 2014-06-17T18:20:27Z jasom: Ralt: I use loop almost exclusively over dolist/dotimes/map 2014-06-17T18:20:37Z Adlai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-17T18:20:47Z bocaneri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-17T18:20:48Z jasom: unless I already have a function I can pass directly to mapfoo I use loop 2014-06-17T18:21:15Z Adlai joined #lisp 2014-06-17T18:22:00Z jasom: Ralt: and in the interest of reinventing the wheel, I wrote my own toy extensible iteration construct (not that I recommend anyone use it): https://github.com/jasom/itertools 2014-06-17T18:22:29Z qiemem 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2014-06-17T19:16:12Z Bicyclidine: well, when you're at the point of needing indentation that's probably too much 2014-06-17T19:16:22Z cmatei joined #lisp 2014-06-17T19:16:39Z therik: alright, I'll use pastebin next time 2014-06-17T19:17:53Z ustunozgur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-17T19:18:38Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-17T19:20:34Z aumont`abe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-17T19:20:46Z bege quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-17T19:23:23Z aumont`abe joined #lisp 2014-06-17T19:23:27Z ustunozgur quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-17T19:23:43Z varjag_ joined #lisp 2014-06-17T19:25:19Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-17T19:25:34Z ngz joined #lisp 2014-06-17T19:26:21Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-17T19:26:30Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-06-17T19:30:20Z interlocutor joined #lisp 2014-06-17T19:32:33Z Bicyclidine quit (Quit: Reconnecting) 2014-06-17T19:32:40Z Bicyclid1ne joined #lisp 2014-06-17T19:32:51Z Bicyclid1ne is now known as Bicyclidine 2014-06-17T19:34:54Z jasom: does sbcl define when assignments to special variables will take effect (I want to synchronize with a signal handler). 2014-06-17T19:35:08Z lukego quit (Quit: lukego) 2014-06-17T19:35:28Z stassats: "when" relative to what? 2014-06-17T19:35:40Z jasom: e.g. if I do (setf *foo* 1) (bar) will Any signal handler interrupting bar see foo as 1? 2014-06-17T19:35:48Z jasom: even if bar is inlined? 2014-06-17T19:36:09Z stassats: if it's in the same thread, yes 2014-06-17T19:36:29Z jasom: okay, thanks 2014-06-17T19:37:10Z jasom: stassats: same question only a dynamic binding of *foo*? 2014-06-17T19:37:46Z stassats: what do you expect it to do otherwise? 2014-06-17T19:38:12Z jasom: decide it doesn't need to bind *foo* since the entire body of (bar) gets open coded and demonstratably never accesses *foo* 2014-06-17T19:38:20Z jasom: you know, like C :( 2014-06-17T19:38:30Z tinyblak quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-17T19:38:46Z stassats: it doesn't do that currently 2014-06-17T19:39:02Z tinyblak joined #lisp 2014-06-17T19:40:05Z stassats: it may start doing that in the future 2014-06-17T19:40:07Z Bicyclidine: clearly we need a (declare (volatile *foo*)) 2014-06-17T19:40:57Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2014-06-17T19:42:57Z stassats: for memory ordering issues as well 2014-06-17T19:44:10Z avery joined #lisp 2014-06-17T19:45:45Z vlnx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-17T19:46:02Z vlnx joined #lisp 2014-06-17T19:52:48Z ggole quit 2014-06-17T19:54:49Z bege joined #lisp 2014-06-17T19:58:11Z pyx joined #lisp 2014-06-17T19:59:53Z pyx quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-17T20:00:38Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: computation discontinued by nuclear meltdown) 2014-06-17T20:01:02Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-17T20:02:06Z Oberon4278 joined #lisp 2014-06-17T20:02:12Z theos joined #lisp 2014-06-17T20:02:12Z davazp quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-17T20:04:24Z foreignFunction quit (Quit: Leaving.) 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Code works in slime but does not when I run it as a script. Here's the snippet: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142921 2014-06-18T01:42:11Z rukubites: Would someone mind trying it out? 2014-06-18T01:42:55Z jebes: doesn't sbcl execute a main function when rain as a script? 2014-06-18T01:43:04Z rukubites: No. 2014-06-18T01:43:11Z rukubites: It just evaluates lines. 2014-06-18T01:43:26Z rukubites: The example will still print out "Forcing error here." 2014-06-18T01:44:16Z jebes: http://www.sbcl.org/1.0/manual/Unix_002dstyle-Command-Line-Protocol.html 2014-06-18T01:44:18Z jebes: maybe? 2014-06-18T01:44:47Z hugod quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-06-18T01:45:12Z jebes: oh, so It executes it line by line, not neccasarily following the control flow? 2014-06-18T01:45:16Z rukubites: Are you sure you're answering my question? I am very familiar with using scripts with sbcl. 2014-06-18T01:45:34Z rukubites: jebes: It evaluates form-by-form. 2014-06-18T01:45:46Z jebes: hrm... I don't have much expierence here 2014-06-18T01:45:48Z rukubites: Then exits when the file finishes. 2014-06-18T01:45:48Z jebes: sorry... 2014-06-18T01:46:12Z rukubites: The point of this is that the code executes incorrectly in the script, but correctly at a repl. 2014-06-18T01:48:28Z JuniorRoy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-18T01:50:40Z echo-area joined #lisp 2014-06-18T01:50:59Z JuniorRoy joined #lisp 2014-06-18T01:51:23Z rukubites: Anyone else want to test the code and my sanity? :P 2014-06-18T01:53:45Z Guest68756 joined #lisp 2014-06-18T01:54:13Z [SLB] quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-18T01:54:28Z arquebus joined #lisp 2014-06-18T01:54:55Z Guest68756 is now known as hugoduncan 2014-06-18T01:56:20Z harish joined #lisp 2014-06-18T01:56:47Z [SLB] joined #lisp 2014-06-18T01:57:35Z arquebus quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-18T01:58:57Z mikaelj quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-18T02:18:01Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-18T02:19:01Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2014-06-18T02:19:31Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-18T02:20:24Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-18T02:21:18Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-18T02:21:52Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-18T02:29:52Z JuniorRoy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-18T02:37:07Z umont`abea quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-18T02:41:32Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-18T02:41:32Z Denommus quit (Changing host) 2014-06-18T02:41:32Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-18T02:42:38Z umont`abea joined #lisp 2014-06-18T02:46:44Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-06-18T02:48:57Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-18T02:48:59Z the8thbit joined #lisp 2014-06-18T02:49:03Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-18T02:51:48Z p_l: rukubites: can't offer any idea why, at the moment, but have you tried putting the code into a function? :) 2014-06-18T02:52:48Z ndrei_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-18T03:01:25Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2014-06-18T03:01:25Z Denommus` quit (Changing host) 2014-06-18T03:01:25Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2014-06-18T03:02:12Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2014-06-18T03:02:53Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-18T03:06:33Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-18T03:13:23Z MjrTom quit (Quit: Planet Earth is blue, and there's nothing I can do) 2014-06-18T03:14:36Z chu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-18T03:16:37Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-18T03:18:36Z rukubites: p_l: The code is usually in a function. :) I thought about it, and have some suspicion that the behaviour is deliberate for scripts I think there is an implied "continue" added to all errors in scripting mode. I will research further. 2014-06-18T03:20:39Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-18T03:20:41Z White_Flame: really stupid suggestion, but have you tried a (terpri)? 2014-06-18T03:21:02Z White_Flame: or force-output, or whatever it is 2014-06-18T03:21:06Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-18T03:21:28Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-18T03:21:35Z rukubites: White_Flame: I can try (finish-output) ... however of course the example I've put is just a distilled version of real code. 2014-06-18T03:22:37Z White_Flame: but yeah, it's likely the difference between having the debug fallthrough on errors in interactive mode vs script mode 2014-06-18T03:22:49Z White_Flame: s/debug/debugger/ 2014-06-18T03:23:09Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-18T03:23:33Z rukubites: White_Flame: I will explore that and try to get a workaround. This is actually a backend daemon service, so having it die is... bothersome. 2014-06-18T03:24:07Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-18T03:24:08Z White_Flame: we tend to use a simple shell script wrapper to handle death 2014-06-18T03:24:11Z rukubites: The #'continue is a placeholder for a function which emails a stack trace to me, and then tries the continue restart. 2014-06-18T03:24:31Z White_Flame: yeah, that's a different situation then 2014-06-18T03:25:02Z rukubites: White_Flame: Of course, actually the daemon is handled by monit, so it gets restarted... but I need to do some error handling on the backend before continuing the loop. 2014-06-18T03:25:35Z zRecursive: rukubites: unwind-protect ? 2014-06-18T03:26:10Z rukubites: zRecursive: the same thing happens, due to the continue restart being used unexpectedly. 2014-06-18T03:26:18Z jack_rabbit quit (Quit: SIGSEGV (core dumped)) 2014-06-18T03:26:28Z rukubites: That is the core issue which I am starting to understand. :) 2014-06-18T03:27:06Z rukubites: So I can either avoid calling continue in this case, or fix things so the scripts don't have the continue restart added. Time to dig deeper. 2014-06-18T03:27:23Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-18T03:27:48Z White_Flame: maybe you can poke into #sbcl, as discussion could get lost in the scrollback here, and it's likely sbcl-specific 2014-06-18T03:28:13Z rukubites: White_Flame: Could do, except this has been the only discussion in the last two~ish hours. :) 2014-06-18T03:28:39Z JuniorRoy joined #lisp 2014-06-18T03:29:42Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-18T03:31:25Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-06-18T03:34:38Z |3b|: rukubites: looks like --script uses LOAD, and LOAD has a continue restart 2014-06-18T03:34:39Z Gooder joined #lisp 2014-06-18T03:36:08Z rukubites: |3b| ahhh, okay. Load. I did verify that it has the added restart using (compute-restarts) http://paste.lisp.org/display/142921#1 2014-06-18T03:37:26Z rukubites: That is... interesting, and I'm not sure how to remove that restart. I'll have a peek. This is a rare event, having to look up ANSI Common Lisp for function names. 2014-06-18T03:40:23Z rukubites: |3b| where did you find that information? 2014-06-18T03:41:52Z pillton joined #lisp 2014-06-18T03:42:03Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-06-18T03:42:13Z Gooder quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-18T03:42:45Z Gooder joined #lisp 2014-06-18T03:49:45Z pillton quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-18T03:49:49Z Vivitron joined #lisp 2014-06-18T03:54:22Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-18T03:57:49Z pspace quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-18T03:57:58Z pspace joined #lisp 2014-06-18T03:58:33Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-18T04:00:08Z pillton joined #lisp 2014-06-18T04:00:55Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2014-06-18T04:01:10Z pillton: I keep getting booted off of the IRC server. Is that happening to anyone else? 2014-06-18T04:01:49Z jusss quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-18T04:03:47Z heddwch: pillton: That only happens to bad people 2014-06-18T04:04:15Z boogie joined #lisp 2014-06-18T04:04:40Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-18T04:04:40Z BountyX joined #lisp 2014-06-18T04:05:27Z pspace quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-18T04:05:37Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-18T04:05:47Z |3b|: rukubites: process-script in src/code/toplevel.lisp calls LOAD, and i assume handles --script, and saw that LOAD adds a restart just by trying it. don't see anything in the spec that requires it, but didn't look everywhere 2014-06-18T04:06:11Z clop2 joined #lisp 2014-06-18T04:08:41Z rukubites: |3b|: Thanks, that helps me dig. 2014-06-18T04:09:15Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-18T04:12:07Z Fare joined #lisp 2014-06-18T04:14:19Z vlnx quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-18T04:14:22Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-18T04:15:05Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-18T04:16:04Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-18T04:17:02Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-18T04:17:23Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-18T04:18:43Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-18T04:20:28Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2014-06-18T04:20:28Z Denommus` quit (Changing host) 2014-06-18T04:20:28Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2014-06-18T04:20:42Z Denommus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-18T04:21:15Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-18T04:21:15Z Denommus quit (Changing host) 2014-06-18T04:21:15Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-18T04:22:45Z mikaelj joined #lisp 2014-06-18T04:23:12Z Corvidium quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-18T04:23:14Z H4ns: morgen! 2014-06-18T04:23:15Z H4ns: oops 2014-06-18T04:24:55Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-18T04:25:00Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-18T04:25:37Z BountyX quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-18T04:25:59Z BountyX joined #lisp 2014-06-18T04:27:25Z ufd joined #lisp 2014-06-18T04:29:35Z vlnx joined #lisp 2014-06-18T04:35:57Z foreignFunction joined #lisp 2014-06-18T04:39:27Z BountyX quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-18T04:40:25Z drewc quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-18T04:42:00Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-18T04:43:16Z drewc joined #lisp 2014-06-18T04:45:43Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-18T04:51:24Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-06-18T04:51:47Z ASau` joined #lisp 2014-06-18T04:55:26Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-18T05:01:45Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-18T05:02:58Z wws joined #lisp 2014-06-18T05:03:09Z JokerDoom joined #lisp 2014-06-18T05:04:56Z wws quit (Ping timeout: 185 seconds) 2014-06-18T05:05:55Z __JokerDoom quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-18T05:06:27Z billstclair quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-18T05:09:08Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-06-18T05:12:38Z wws quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-18T05:13:14Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-06-18T05:14:42Z BountyX joined #lisp 2014-06-18T05:21:15Z tinyblak quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-18T05:22:40Z foreignFunction quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-18T05:22:59Z n0n0 joined #lisp 2014-06-18T05:24:45Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-06-18T05:27:33Z Hydan_ joined #lisp 2014-06-18T05:28:09Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-18T05:29:09Z ck_: morgen ;) 2014-06-18T05:30:37Z Hydan quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-18T05:31:35Z malbertife joined #lisp 2014-06-18T05:33:45Z aksr joined #lisp 2014-06-18T05:36:37Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-06-18T05:37:33Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-18T05:39:00Z rukubites: Note on the sbcl issue above. 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Then the top level loop simply pulls data from two closures; the idea is universal and all you need is closures 2014-06-18T10:04:19Z wz1000 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-18T10:05:44Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-18T10:06:09Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-18T10:06:49Z hlavaty: with this approach, the loop body is basically factored into well defined components that maintain some invariants themselves; if you write loops, you need to maintain the loop variables manually, which gets ugly quickly for non-trivial loops; the advantage of loop is that the body can be inlined 2014-06-18T10:09:06Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-06-18T10:13:35Z pranavrc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-18T10:13:50Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-06-18T10:13:51Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2014-06-18T10:13:51Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-06-18T10:15:08Z Sir_herrbatka joined #lisp 2014-06-18T10:16:34Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 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Didn't know RacerPro got released as open source 2014-06-18T17:23:00Z p_l: might not be that important for some, but it's pretty huge IMO o_O 2014-06-18T17:23:36Z jasom: p_l: is it useful without allegrograph? 2014-06-18T17:23:51Z p_l: jasom: yes 2014-06-18T17:24:46Z p_l: jasom: in fact, the documentation starts with mentions of it being usable with Protege and other OWL API/Link applications 2014-06-18T17:24:52Z p_l: (Protege... ugh. Worst UX ever) 2014-06-18T17:25:37Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-18T17:25:51Z antoszka: p_l: What's that Protege thing? 2014-06-18T17:27:12Z p_l: antoszka: a GUI editor for ontologies 2014-06-18T17:27:27Z antoszka: Ah. 2014-06-18T17:27:37Z p_l: at least the version I had to use at uni was utter torture, because of such prosaic things as not supporting TAB-key navigation 2014-06-18T17:28:06Z p_l: now consider filling in a bunch of datapoints about an individual or a class... and doing so for >20 objects 2014-06-18T17:30:02Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-18T17:30:15Z sgadekar__ quit (Quit: sgadekar__) 2014-06-18T17:30:46Z jasom: compiling ecl found a bug in tcc's preprocessor 2014-06-18T17:33:37Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-18T17:34:55Z Hydan_ quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-18T17:35:06Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 2014-06-18T17:35:58Z Xach: that is the power of lisp. 2014-06-18T17:36:02Z juanlas joined #lisp 2014-06-18T17:38:11Z wz1000 joined #lisp 2014-06-18T17:40:03Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-18T17:40:10Z foreignFunction joined #lisp 2014-06-18T17:40:49Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-18T17:43:32Z fridim_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-18T17:53:30Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-18T17:55:43Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-06-18T17:57:40Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-18T18:01:05Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-06-18T18:01:27Z nand1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-18T18:03:32Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-18T18:06:30Z fantazo joined #lisp 2014-06-18T18:08:38Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-18T18:09:11Z sheilong joined #lisp 2014-06-18T18:09:23Z pbgc quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-18T18:09:32Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2014-06-18T18:09:59Z drewc: Xach: ah, now I see the reason for so many "What is the licence of SMUG?" emails. Sigh, that means a wee bit of work to actually release it proper before the next dist update. 2014-06-18T18:11:47Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-18T18:13:44Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-18T18:19:03Z fragamus joined #lisp 2014-06-18T18:19:54Z bjorkintosh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-18T18:20:15Z pbgc joined #lisp 2014-06-18T18:23:14Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-18T18:28:44Z pbgc quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/) 2014-06-18T18:30:21Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-18T18:31:25Z doomlord_1 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-06-18T18:31:59Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-18T18:35:22Z bocaneri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-18T18:36:27Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-18T18:36:33Z ggole__ is now known as ggole 2014-06-18T18:37:57Z lukego quit (Quit: lukego) 2014-06-18T18:38:14Z Xach: is there a license? 2014-06-18T18:39:27Z p_l: many a copyright act defaults to "all rights reserved" without one 2014-06-18T18:40:54Z ovidnis joined #lisp 2014-06-18T18:42:25Z jasom: drewc: also, if you rename and/or copy smug.org to readme.org (a symlink might even work) then github will show your .org file on the landingpage 2014-06-18T18:43:36Z ovidnis quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-18T18:44:19Z drewc: Xach: there really is not, so it will be WTFPL 2014-06-18T18:45:00Z drewc: or something similar ... more Public Domain then such laws for such terms allow etc 2014-06-18T18:45:03Z fragamus quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-18T18:46:19Z Quadrescence: drewc, http://unlicense.org/ 2014-06-18T18:47:43Z Shinmera: I find this site really useful for license stuff https://tldrlegal.com/license/unlicense (the page about what Quadrescence posted just now) 2014-06-18T18:48:04Z samebchase: Hi Quadrescence, Inspired by your map-set, I wrote this: https://github.com/samebchase/hash-set 2014-06-18T18:48:22Z ovidnis joined #lisp 2014-06-18T18:49:01Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2014-06-18T18:50:12Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-18T18:50:29Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-06-18T18:50:43Z Quadrescence quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-18T18:51:03Z Quadresce_ joined #lisp 2014-06-18T18:51:24Z Quadresce_: Shinmera, cool site 2014-06-18T18:51:30Z jasom: The unlicense is self-contradictory, and flat out illegal in some countries. You cant put something in the public domain and then also disclaim a warrenty in many places. 2014-06-18T18:51:39Z Quadresce_ is now known as Quadrescence 2014-06-18T18:52:00Z Bicyclidine: can't you just use cc0 2014-06-18T18:52:01Z jasom: If it's in the public domain, then they don't need a license to use it, which means you can't require that they not sue you as a condition of licensing it 2014-06-18T18:52:03Z Quadrescence: jasom, Can't satisfy everyone, eh? 2014-06-18T18:52:20Z KCL_ joined #lisp 2014-06-18T18:52:51Z jasom: and many non-common-law countries don't have a public domain thus making it not usable there 2014-06-18T18:53:59Z Quadrescence: jasom, do you have a list of countries somewhere that don't accept different licenses, making open source software effectively unusable? 2014-06-18T18:54:46Z jasom: Quadrescence: I don't, but I seem to recall that Germany doesn't allow public domain dedications (but most open source licenses are okay) 2014-06-18T18:55:12Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-18T18:55:45Z Quadrescence: too bad, a few of my things are unlicensed and I'm sure I can't just take it back 2014-06-18T18:55:55Z Quadrescence: (well i'm not sure but i suspect so) 2014-06-18T18:56:06Z jasom: Quadrescence: you can probably also release it under e.g. MIT/X11 2014-06-18T18:56:25Z Quadrescence: What does it mean to hold copyright and disclaim it at the same time 2014-06-18T18:58:11Z Quadrescence: #lisp-lawyers 2014-06-18T18:58:24Z dkcl: Isn't a BSD license the closest you can get to public domain in as many places as possible? 2014-06-18T18:58:33Z dkcl: Or MIT/X11, yeah 2014-06-18T18:58:41Z jasom: Quadrescence: I don't know all the details of public-domain. You can offer one software under a pluarlity of licenses though. 2014-06-18T18:59:03Z jasom: cc0 is thought to be good, but until somebody sues somebody else we won't know for sure 2014-06-18T19:02:11Z jasom: It might actually be impossible to make a contract that is binding everywhere. It's entirely possible there is some country that has some rule where if any clauses of a license are found invalid, the entire license is invalidated notwithstanding any attempts to circumvent that 2014-06-18T19:02:43Z Shinmera: international law is generally a very shaky territory. 2014-06-18T19:03:49Z jasom: aha http://www.lareda.hessenrecht.hessen.de/jportal/portal/t/1v7m/page/bslaredaprod.psml?pid=Dokumentanzeige&showdoccase=1&js_peid=Trefferliste&documentnumber=3&numberofresults=4&fromdoctodoc=yes&doc.id=KORE434782003%3Ajuris-r03&doc.part=L&doc.price=0.0&doc.hl=1#focuspoint <-- there's the case where a US work that had fallen into the public domain in the US was considered still copyrighted in germany 2014-06-18T19:04:55Z Quadrescence: jasom, So maybe you can license it under copyright in places where copyright cannot be disclaimed 2014-06-18T19:05:47Z edgar-rft: In Germany you can only give avay usage and exploitation rights, but the copyright always continues to belong to the original creator. There is no exception to this. 2014-06-18T19:06:53Z jasom: That's why CC0 has 3 steps: 1) Waive all rights 2) if #1 didn't work grant a permissive license #3) if #2 doesn't work include a promise to not enforce the rights 2014-06-18T19:08:12Z qiemem joined #lisp 2014-06-18T19:08:23Z p_l: edgar-rft: usually it's a separation of "authorship" and "copyright" in european law, afaik 2014-06-18T19:08:37Z p_l: copyright is the material rights to exploit the work 2014-06-18T19:08:48Z p_l: authorship is the right to claim, well, authorship 2014-06-18T19:09:11Z Shinmera: Heh, interesting. Apparently swiss law states that the copyright lasts for 70 years after the author's death, with the exception of software for which it is 50 years. 2014-06-18T19:09:11Z jasom: Continental europe genrally disallows waiving of "moral rights" which isn't even a thing in the *S 2014-06-18T19:10:31Z phax left #lisp 2014-06-18T19:12:59Z edgar-rft: I'm a broadcast electrician (not a layer), but my dictionary translates "authorship" and "copyright" to the same German word "Uhrheberrecht",what means the rights of the original creator. 2014-06-18T19:14:53Z Shinmera: "urheberrecht" more literally translated means "right of the creator/author", so it's really more of "authorship" than "copyright". 2014-06-18T19:16:52Z Shinmera: the literal translation of "copyright" would be "kopierrecht", which doesn't really exist as a word per se. But I digress. 2014-06-18T19:17:29Z edgar-rft: A special problem with the German "Urheberrecht" is that no bank will give you credit for intellectual work (book manuscripts, music, movies, etc.) because the can't seize your work if you can't pay back the money 2014-06-18T19:18:02Z edgar-rft: So your intellectual work is virtually worth nothing... 2014-06-18T19:20:07Z dkcl: Or, your intellectual work is only worth something virtually 2014-06-18T19:20:37Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-18T19:22:00Z edgar-rft: Yeah, that's right :-) But for (virtually non-existent) music and movies industry in Germany this really is a problem, e.g. you won't get a bank credit for making a movie. 2014-06-18T19:23:08Z deego joined #lisp 2014-06-18T19:29:56Z schoppenhauer: isn't it comparably hard to get a bank credit for vitally every startup in germany? 2014-06-18T19:32:03Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2014-06-18T19:32:58Z monod joined #lisp 2014-06-18T19:34:09Z Pullphinger joined #lisp 2014-06-18T19:37:53Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-18T19:37:54Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-06-18T19:37:54Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-18T19:40:00Z nalkri joined #lisp 2014-06-18T19:41:29Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-18T19:41:40Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2014-06-18T19:42:09Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-18T19:45:29Z AdmiralBumbleBee quit (Quit: AdmiralBumbleBee) 2014-06-18T19:45:33Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-18T19:46:14Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-18T19:48:36Z malbertife joined #lisp 2014-06-18T19:52:31Z fourier joined #lisp 2014-06-18T19:54:47Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-18T19:55:12Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-18T19:55:36Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-06-18T19:55:37Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-18T19:55:58Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-06-18T19:58:14Z Longlius joined #lisp 2014-06-18T19:59:30Z fourier: Anybody could explain strange behavior of CASE with integer constants? 2014-06-18T19:59:47Z fourier: Here is the sample: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142932 2014-06-18T20:00:16Z oGMo: that's a symbol 2014-06-18T20:00:33Z fourier: aah 2014-06-18T20:00:58Z fourier: so I can't use CASE if I want to switch by constant values? 2014-06-18T20:01:01Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-18T20:01:10Z Bicyclidine: fourier: you can, it's just that the symbol isn't evaluated as you're expecting. 2014-06-18T20:01:13Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-06-18T20:01:28Z Bicyclidine: fourier: your code is looking for val to equal the symbol +VALUE-CONST+. 2014-06-18T20:01:34Z theos joined #lisp 2014-06-18T20:01:50Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-06-18T20:01:51Z Bicyclidine: fourier: maybe do a read-time evaluation with #.+value-const+ 2014-06-18T20:02:04Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-18T20:02:06Z oGMo: if you're dispatching like this, there's probably a better way, too 2014-06-18T20:02:34Z Bicyclidine: fourier: you can try (process-value '+value-const+) to see what i mean. 2014-06-18T20:03:06Z fourier: yes, read-time evaluation helps 2014-06-18T20:03:44Z fourier: I wanted to get rid of ugly (cond ((eq val +value-const+) ..) but looks lice CASE is not a solution.. 2014-06-18T20:03:57Z Shinmera: write your own case that evaluates. 2014-06-18T20:04:33Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-18T20:04:43Z oGMo: what Shinmera said 2014-06-18T20:05:48Z oGMo: is alexandria's `SWITCH` like that? 2014-06-18T20:06:00Z oGMo: its documentation is a little .. terse 2014-06-18T20:06:06Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-18T20:06:57Z oGMo: it is, or seems so 2014-06-18T20:07:09Z oGMo: expands to nearly exactly that COND 2014-06-18T20:07:16Z Shinmera: fourier: also your use of EQ in that cond worries me. Numbers are not guaranteed EQ to each other. 2014-06-18T20:07:29Z oGMo: (defconstant +foo+ 10) (switch (10) (+foo+ 'yes)) => YES 2014-06-18T20:07:50Z fourier: (defconstant +foo+ 10) (switch (10) (+foo+ 'yes)) => YES 2014-06-18T20:07:54Z fourier: oops 2014-06-18T20:08:14Z fourier: yes, I believe I'll try the alexandria's switch 2014-06-18T20:08:15Z oGMo: that is alexandria:switch to be specific 2014-06-18T20:08:22Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-18T20:08:33Z Quadrescence: I would be very sad if fixnums weren't EQ 2014-06-18T20:08:49Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-06-18T20:08:52Z oGMo: or if a constant evaluates to a number which is not EQ to itself 2014-06-18T20:08:53Z pjb: Quadrescence: it happens in more than one implementation. 2014-06-18T20:09:04Z Xach: Sadness-Driven Development 2014-06-18T20:09:05Z pjb: oGMo: it may happen in some implementations. 2014-06-18T20:09:10Z oGMo: pjb: i doubt it 2014-06-18T20:09:11Z Quadrescence: pjb, which? 2014-06-18T20:09:17Z Quadrescence: ABCL CLISP? 2014-06-18T20:09:22Z pjb: abcl for example yes. 2014-06-18T20:09:32Z Quadrescence: because java caches only -127 to 128 or something 2014-06-18T20:09:33Z pjb: clisp is rather a classical implementation. 2014-06-18T20:09:39Z axion: (eq 2 (+ 1 1)) => NIL 2014-06-18T20:10:01Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-18T20:10:02Z oGMo: oh, defconstant only requires EQL 2014-06-18T20:10:03Z Shinmera: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/CLHS/Body/f_eq.htm "However, numbers with the same value need not be eq" 2014-06-18T20:10:07Z pjb: Or imagine any implementation targetting javascript or bash. 2014-06-18T20:10:32Z pjb: You really don't want to depend on EQ! 2014-06-18T20:11:06Z axion: indeed. there is a good section on this in PCL 2014-06-18T20:11:58Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-18T20:12:32Z fourier: Yep, alexandria's switch did the trick. Thanks guys :) I'll verify all EQs for numbers as well 2014-06-18T20:12:57Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 2014-06-18T20:13:06Z foreignFunction quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-18T20:13:55Z axion: ha, CL for Java 9whatever that is), EQ passes for fixnums -1 through 5, and 10, but nothing else 2014-06-18T20:13:59Z axion: wth? 2014-06-18T20:14:09Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-18T20:14:26Z pjb: axion: why not? It's allowed by the standard! 2014-06-18T20:15:21Z Shinmera: Idk why you'd want to use anything but = for number comparison anyway. 2014-06-18T20:15:32Z Shinmera: (That is, if you can) 2014-06-18T20:15:39Z juanlas joined #lisp 2014-06-18T20:15:40Z wz1000 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-18T20:15:52Z ggole quit 2014-06-18T20:16:20Z pjb: Shinmera: because you want: (cdr (assoc 1 '((1.0d0 . double) (1.0e0 . single) (1 . integer)))) --> integer 2014-06-18T20:16:52Z pjb: Shinmera: not: (cdr (assoc 1 '((1.0d0 . double) (1.0e0 . single) (1 . integer)) :test '=)) --> double 2014-06-18T20:17:03Z Shinmera: Ah, right. 2014-06-18T20:17:18Z Shinmera: Though I would say that that goes under type comparison rather than number comparison. 2014-06-18T20:21:55Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2014-06-18T20:21:57Z Denommus` quit (Changing host) 2014-06-18T20:21:57Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2014-06-18T20:22:02Z gendl quit (Quit: gendl) 2014-06-18T20:22:12Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-18T20:23:10Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-06-18T20:24:19Z lukego joined #lisp 2014-06-18T20:24:22Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-18T20:26:52Z genkinodenki quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-18T20:26:53Z jchochli_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-18T20:27:03Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-18T20:27:43Z sroy_ quit (Quit: Quitte) 2014-06-18T20:27:45Z genkinodenki joined #lisp 2014-06-18T20:28:11Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-06-18T20:28:19Z fourier quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-18T20:31:47Z RenRenJuan joined #lisp 2014-06-18T20:32:58Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-06-18T20:34:51Z Sir_herrbatka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-18T20:38:32Z lukego quit (Quit: lukego) 2014-06-18T20:39:47Z ltbarcly quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-18T20:41:08Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2014-06-18T20:43:14Z nydel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-18T20:44:51Z monod quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-18T20:49:20Z nydel joined #lisp 2014-06-18T20:50:03Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-18T20:50:03Z Denommus quit (Changing host) 2014-06-18T20:50:03Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-18T20:52:27Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-18T20:53:00Z Bike: axion: i think that has to do with how the jvm does boxed numbers. 2014-06-18T20:53:12Z axion: yes i know 2014-06-18T20:53:19Z jasom: will (incf (gethash :foo bar 0)) work as expected if there is no object with key :foo in hash-table bar? 2014-06-18T20:53:27Z jasom: i.e. set it to 1 2014-06-18T20:53:49Z Denommus quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-18T20:53:51Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-18T20:54:26Z stassats: naturally 2014-06-18T20:55:06Z jasom: it's confusing because "When a gethash form is used as a setf place, any default which is supplied is evaluated according to normal left-to-right evaluation rules, but its value is ignored." 2014-06-18T20:55:39Z pjb: on the contrary, this is perfectly expected, by the bare rules of evaluation of CL. 2014-06-18T20:55:53Z pjb: gethash is a function, therefore all arguments are evaluated from left to right. 2014-06-18T20:55:54Z stassats: jasom: that's right, it will do that 2014-06-18T20:56:04Z stassats: jasom: but incf is not just a setf form 2014-06-18T20:56:23Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-18T20:56:53Z stassats: it will need first to retrieve the current value, that's where the default will come in 2014-06-18T20:57:21Z monod joined #lisp 2014-06-18T20:57:23Z stassats: as in (setf (gethash x y ignored) (1+ (gethash x y not-ignored))) 2014-06-18T20:57:23Z Bike: i'm with jasom, in that the quoted sentence seems needlessly confusing 2014-06-18T20:57:47Z oGMo: it's not 2014-06-18T20:57:53Z Shinmera: Seems perfectly logical to me. The default makes no sense when used as a place 2014-06-18T20:57:57Z oGMo: the form is not ignored, it's evaluated 2014-06-18T20:58:04Z oGMo: if DEFAULT has side effects, they will be applied twice 2014-06-18T20:58:06Z Bike: i mean, i get what it's saying, but it seems confusing 2014-06-18T20:58:16Z pjb: oGMo: not with incf! 2014-06-18T20:59:04Z oGMo: then it really just doesn't apply to incf anyway 2014-06-18T20:59:22Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-18T20:59:22Z pjb: (let ((i 0)) (setf (gethash k h (incf i)) (1+ (gethash k h (incf i)))) i) is not the same as (let ((i 0)) (incf (gethash k h (incf i))) i) 2014-06-18T20:59:24Z jasom: oGMo: incf only evaluates the place form once 2014-06-18T20:59:25Z mikaelj quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-18T20:59:38Z jasom: oGMo: that part is clear 2014-06-18T20:59:59Z monod quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-18T21:00:15Z jasom: I get wat it's saying too, but such a confusing way of saying it 2014-06-18T21:00:28Z knob quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-18T21:00:36Z oGMo: jasom: sure but for setf the side effects still thus apply, even if the value is ignored 2014-06-18T21:00:54Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-18T21:00:59Z jasom: incf takes a setf place, but it doesn't ignore the value of it... Arguably the default isn't ignored in this case. 2014-06-18T21:01:03Z oGMo: it could probably be worded better, but it's being specific afaict 2014-06-18T21:02:19Z jasom: why does it need to sa "its value is ignored." if it didn't say that, it would be more clear IMO 2014-06-18T21:02:26Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-18T21:02:45Z Shinmera: because the value of the default bears no relevance on its place 2014-06-18T21:02:51Z stassats: because it is ignored? 2014-06-18T21:03:03Z stassats: incf performs two operations, one is getting the value, another is setting it 2014-06-18T21:03:06Z Shinmera: it's only confusing in combination with incf 2014-06-18T21:03:43Z Guest411O2 quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-18T21:03:43Z therik quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-18T21:04:37Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-18T21:04:48Z seangrov` joined #lisp 2014-06-18T21:05:11Z jasom: Shinmera: what about push? 2014-06-18T21:05:43Z jasom: decf 2014-06-18T21:05:44Z jasom: pop 2014-06-18T21:05:48Z stassats: any modify macro consists of two parts 2014-06-18T21:06:27Z Shinmera: jasom: the spec refers to setf, not any of the functions you mentioned. 2014-06-18T21:06:31Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 2014-06-18T21:06:52Z nalkri quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-18T21:07:15Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-18T21:07:59Z ovidnis quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-18T21:08:26Z drmeiste_ is now known as drmeister_ 2014-06-18T21:10:15Z drmeister: How do I get my beautiful "drmeister" nickname back? 2014-06-18T21:10:19Z juanlas joined #lisp 2014-06-18T21:10:58Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-18T21:11:04Z drmeister: Hmm, it said "drmeist_" is now known as "drmeister_" but the nickname on the left is "drmeister:" - maybe everything is going to be ok. 2014-06-18T21:11:54Z FracV quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-18T21:12:15Z FracV joined #lisp 2014-06-18T21:12:31Z Hydan quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-18T21:12:40Z drmeister_ is me again 2014-06-18T21:12:48Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-18T21:13:20Z stassats: do you like underscores? 2014-06-18T21:14:59Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-06-18T21:15:11Z Guest411O2 joined #lisp 2014-06-18T21:16:12Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-18T21:16:16Z eni_ joined #lisp 2014-06-18T21:16:33Z nialo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-18T21:17:35Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-18T21:21:03Z dim: and_how_much_do_you_like_them? 2014-06-18T21:21:07Z seangrov` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-18T21:23:21Z Pullphinger quit 2014-06-18T21:26:26Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-06-18T21:26:44Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-06-18T21:27:33Z htmzr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-18T21:28:24Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-06-18T21:28:52Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-18T21:29:29Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-18T21:30:45Z htmzr joined #lisp 2014-06-18T21:30:51Z Eyes quit (Quit: X probably crashed) 2014-06-18T21:31:31Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-18T21:32:29Z qiemem quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-06-18T21:33:36Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-18T21:34:15Z aksr quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-18T21:34:34Z replcated quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-18T21:35:18Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-18T21:37:58Z drmeister: I don't care for underscores - no. They've caused me a lot of grief. I use camel case when I program in C++ and dashes when I program in Common Lisp. I started putting underscores in my function and variable names in C++ and now I have a mess of underscores and camel case and sometimes I even mixed them. Bleh. But I have this program that's going to fix everything :-) 2014-06-18T21:38:56Z drmeister: I have a C++ name to Common Lisp mangler that automagically converts things like "HiThere_ThisIs_a_test" to hi-there-this-is-a-test. 2014-06-18T21:39:31Z drmeister: Why don't Common Lisp symbols use more characters than just dash for word separators? It seems like a terrible waste of all those characters. 2014-06-18T21:39:39Z dim: pgloader has a (defun camelCase-to-colname (string) ...) ;-) 2014-06-18T21:39:48Z drmeister: symbols-like.these-wouldawesome! 2014-06-18T21:40:12Z dim: I've seen CL code using a->b or a/b as symbol names, but I've seen more elisp code doing that 2014-06-18T21:40:32Z Bike: yesterday i saw some C code using center dots for hierarchical names, that was kind of clever 2014-06-18T21:40:37Z Shinmera: drmeister: no 2014-06-18T21:40:39Z drmeister: Set those characters free! 2014-06-18T21:40:49Z drmeister: What are center dots? 2014-06-18T21:41:03Z drmeister: Oh - you mean like bullets? 2014-06-18T21:41:03Z Bike: like tex \cdot, lemme find one 2014-06-18T21:41:07Z Shinmera: · 2014-06-18T21:41:12Z Bike: "interpunct", they are apparently called 2014-06-18T21:41:24Z Bike: thank you. 2014-06-18T21:41:28Z drmeister: Those aren't legal are they? 2014-06-18T21:41:39Z Bike: Legal in what? 2014-06-18T21:41:58Z drmeister: C 2014-06-18T21:42:00Z Shinmera: Gotta love UIM's elatin input mode 2014-06-18T21:42:01Z dim: that's unicode and you can have unicode symbol names in SBCL IIRC, provided that you align the right stars 2014-06-18T21:42:23Z dim: oh in C. I've been told that recent enough gcc is able to do it 2014-06-18T21:42:27Z Bike: I think C compilers are allowed to have extended character sets. Not sure. This particular project has their own C compiler, so they can presumably do it anyway 2014-06-18T21:42:29Z dim: with specific options 2014-06-18T21:42:44Z drmeister: That's why I'm switching to Apple's new Swift language - so I can use sad-faced clowns as variable names. 2014-06-18T21:42:57Z Bike: hey, you can do that in CL too :( 2014-06-18T21:43:20Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2014-06-18T21:44:23Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-18T21:44:57Z jasom: C only allows ascii to be portable IIRC 2014-06-18T21:45:29Z ovidnis joined #lisp 2014-06-18T21:46:02Z stassats: trigraphs? 2014-06-18T21:47:25Z eni_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-18T21:47:49Z zygentoma^42 quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-18T21:47:59Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-18T21:49:20Z axion: is their a naming convention for when to use predicate-p as compared to predicatep? 2014-06-18T21:49:41Z Shinmera: usually only use hyphens when you have multiple words 2014-06-18T21:49:51Z Shinmera: as in wordp some-words-p 2014-06-18T21:49:52Z Bike: yeah, i think Xach has a usenet article about it 2014-06-18T21:49:52Z axion: ah ok 2014-06-18T21:50:04Z Shinmera: Personally I always do -p, but hey. 2014-06-18T21:50:16Z oGMo: Shinmera: same heh 2014-06-18T21:50:19Z oGMo: or, actually, randomly 2014-06-18T21:50:20Z jchochli_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-18T21:50:22Z axion: as do i, was just curious if i was doing it wrong 2014-06-18T21:50:30Z axion: as ive seen both styles 2014-06-18T21:50:50Z axion: but now that i think about it i'm pretty sure only seen the latter with 1 word 2014-06-18T21:50:51Z _schulte_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-18T21:51:12Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-18T21:51:15Z Bike: there's nothing in the spec specifying it like there is for comments, i think, but there is defstruct, so it's a bit weird 2014-06-18T21:51:20Z Bike: i wouldn't worry too much about it, of course 2014-06-18T21:55:41Z mac_ified quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-18T21:56:38Z axion: i've also seen "predicate?" in a lot of code 2014-06-18T21:57:05Z axion: so much in fact, sometimes i catch myself doing it 2014-06-18T21:57:16Z Shinmera: word? is more of a scheme thing 2014-06-18T21:57:20Z Bike: that's scheme. i kind of like it for making questions of - seem even pettier than usual 2014-06-18T21:57:46Z axion: ah 2014-06-18T21:59:30Z funnel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-18T21:59:38Z stassats: makes it harder to discuss 2014-06-18T21:59:52Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-18T21:59:55Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 2014-06-18T21:59:56Z stassats: "how do i check for a cons?" "cons?" "yes, for a cons!" 2014-06-18T22:00:06Z axion: haha 2014-06-18T22:00:26Z funnel joined #lisp 2014-06-18T22:01:36Z mcsmash joined #lisp 2014-06-18T22:02:10Z mcsmash: I'm looking for a little help. I've plumbed google as far as I can, but I haven't come up with anything useful. 2014-06-18T22:02:28Z mcsmash: I'm looking for flex/bison grammar files for a lisp implementation. 2014-06-18T22:02:46Z mcsmash: (I'm a complete list noob btw) 2014-06-18T22:03:20Z axion: it's nice to know about lists before you think about lisp 2014-06-18T22:04:04Z Bike: mcsmash: common lisp's grammar isn't recursive descent (or recursive at all, but whatever). try #scheme maybe 2014-06-18T22:05:53Z mcsmash: Bike: Thank you very much, I'll look into that. 2014-06-18T22:07:05Z rukubites joined #lisp 2014-06-18T22:07:32Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-18T22:08:42Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-18T22:08:44Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-18T22:09:05Z sheilong quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-18T22:10:38Z drdo quit (Quit: :O) 2014-06-18T22:11:27Z drdo joined #lisp 2014-06-18T22:14:25Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-18T22:17:42Z drmeister: Does anyone use "git subtree"? I'm trying to set up dependent libraries in my CL system and I just added one that I want to remove again. 2014-06-18T22:17:55Z drdo quit (Quit: :O) 2014-06-18T22:18:30Z rukubites: When invoking a restart such as CONTINUE, is there a way to discount restarts that are outside the current scope? 2014-06-18T22:18:33Z drdo joined #lisp 2014-06-18T22:19:33Z Bike: rukubites: "scope"? you can provide the related signal, though 2014-06-18T22:19:38Z drewc: I use ? for variables that are false or , like (let ((list? (listp list))) ...) where i define "false" as (list) or '() or CL:NIL etc 2014-06-18T22:21:46Z interlocutor left #lisp 2014-06-18T22:23:03Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-18T22:23:25Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-18T22:24:16Z rukubites: Bike: My problem is that there is an unexpected CONTINUE restart provided up the call tree from my handler-bind which is dispatching to the CONTINUE restart... but I only want to jump to CONTINUE restarts further down the call tree. 2014-06-18T22:25:23Z Bike: right. you can associate restarts with conditions 2014-06-18T22:25:29Z Bike: clhs with-condition-restarts 2014-06-18T22:25:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_cnd_.htm 2014-06-18T22:25:44Z Bike: and then have continue only go to the restart associated with a given condition 2014-06-18T22:26:44Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-18T22:27:38Z drdo quit (Quit: :O) 2014-06-18T22:28:03Z RenRenJuan quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-06-18T22:28:08Z drdo joined #lisp 2014-06-18T22:28:17Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-18T22:29:36Z rukubites: Bike: That might work. I'll have a look. The inner details of restarts are still kinda opaque to me. 2014-06-18T22:29:49Z Bike: and to everyone :) 2014-06-18T22:32:01Z rukubites: Hmmm. I think I'll just accept my workaround for now. 2014-06-18T22:32:15Z rukubites: The CLHS doesn't even have an example. :( 2014-06-18T22:32:45Z vinleod quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-06-18T22:32:56Z Bike: well, liek it says, people only use it through restart-case 2014-06-18T22:33:52Z rukubites: The underlying problem is an unexpected CONTINUE restart provided when you start sbcl in --script mode. 2014-06-18T22:34:38Z rukubites: Because it uses LOAD to evaluate the script. 2014-06-18T22:35:04Z JuanDaugherty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-18T22:37:54Z aeth joined #lisp 2014-06-18T22:38:06Z Xach: cltl2 explains the logic and i tend to stick to it. 2014-06-18T22:42:55Z mikaelj joined #lisp 2014-06-18T22:43:25Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2014-06-18T22:45:08Z Shinmera quit (Quit: ZzZ) 2014-06-18T22:46:42Z Sgeo joined #lisp 2014-06-18T22:51:49Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-18T22:52:57Z mrSpec quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-18T22:56:15Z FracV quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-18T22:59:11Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-18T23:00:15Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-18T23:00:22Z fortitude quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-18T23:02:05Z stassats quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-18T23:03:23Z pillton joined #lisp 2014-06-18T23:04:17Z doomlord_1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-18T23:04:56Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-18T23:05:21Z c74d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-18T23:05:33Z mikaelj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-18T23:07:25Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-06-18T23:07:32Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-18T23:07:40Z rukubites: Thanks Xach... I'll read the cltl2 entry too. 2014-06-18T23:08:05Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-18T23:08:11Z c74d joined #lisp 2014-06-18T23:08:51Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-18T23:09:40Z Bike: i think xach meant the -p thing? 2014-06-18T23:09:57Z Bike: i think associating restarts and conditions was a standards committee addition 2014-06-18T23:14:38Z doomlor__ joined #lisp 2014-06-18T23:14:46Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-06-18T23:15:23Z doomlord_1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-18T23:18:49Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2014-06-18T23:19:34Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-18T23:20:20Z nialo joined #lisp 2014-06-18T23:22:03Z ufd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-18T23:25:17Z Fare joined #lisp 2014-06-18T23:25:36Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2014-06-18T23:25:43Z Xach: i meant the p suffix 2014-06-18T23:28:40Z oleo is now known as Guest75546 2014-06-18T23:29:10Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-06-18T23:30:17Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2014-06-18T23:30:52Z eudoxia quit 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2014-06-19T11:52:39Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-19T11:59:19Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2014-06-19T11:59:24Z oleo__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-19T11:59:48Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-06-19T12:00:09Z joe-w-bimedina joined #lisp 2014-06-19T12:01:05Z Sgeo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-19T12:01:46Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-19T12:03:44Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-19T12:04:10Z joe-w-bimedina: Im in the process of changing all the functions in my library that create objects to use the make-* syntax, ie if Im creating a matrix object I would call MAKE-MAT, MAT being the name for the matrix class in my library. There is a function called COL-RANGE that I have that returns a a range of columns as a MAT object. would it be professional to call that function MAKE-COL-RANGE 2014-06-19T12:04:34Z karswell joined #lisp 2014-06-19T12:05:11Z oleo: i thought row-major is the default.... 2014-06-19T12:05:15Z axion: joe-w-bimedina: you didn't listen to us last week 2014-06-19T12:05:15Z Soft- joined #lisp 2014-06-19T12:05:32Z H4ns: axion: they can't 2014-06-19T12:05:50Z joe-w-bimedina: COL-RANGE returns a range of columns of an already defined MAT object.....axion: I just needed a little clarification 2014-06-19T12:06:02Z axion: they can't what? 2014-06-19T12:06:07Z H4ns: axion: listne 2014-06-19T12:06:17Z H4ns: listEN. i can't type. 2014-06-19T12:06:32Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-19T12:06:33Z axion: joe-w-bimedina: abbreviated names are ambiguous 2014-06-19T12:07:41Z axion: how does a viewer of your code distinguish whether MAKE-COL-RANGE, creates a color gradient or not? 2014-06-19T12:07:51Z c3w quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-19T12:08:54Z joe-w-bimedina: it matches the C++ OpenCV name exactly , makes learning it easier 2014-06-19T12:09:33Z axion: so your library requires external knowledge to make use of. seems limiting 2014-06-19T12:10:11Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-19T12:11:17Z joe-w-bimedina: when you find an example in C++ online it makes converting it easier....so should I call COL-RANGE in this instance, MAKE-COL-RANGE, I would appreciate advice on this 2014-06-19T12:11:20Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-19T12:11:46Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-06-19T12:11:47Z ehu quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-19T12:12:00Z hitecnologys: Don't. Abbreviate. Names. 2014-06-19T12:12:56Z kcj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-19T12:13:21Z RenRenJuan joined #lisp 2014-06-19T12:13:47Z joe-w-bimedina: have to follow my gut on that though I do appreciate the advice 2014-06-19T12:13:52Z Zetetic is now known as nalkri 2014-06-19T12:14:19Z hitecnologys: It's not an advice. 2014-06-19T12:14:40Z joe-w-bimedina: don't understand 2014-06-19T12:14:56Z axion: one common programmer mistake is they assume what is easier for them will be easy for the general audience of their work 2014-06-19T12:15:17Z axion: when explicitness is always best 2014-06-19T12:15:26Z Soft- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-19T12:17:24Z joe-w-bimedina: I figure If I stay close to what OpenCV is doing it will be easier for other to learn to use my library, they can find an example that uses col_Range and just know mine is col-range. I think thats a pretty good idea counting the number of OpenCV examples online 2014-06-19T12:18:54Z joe-w-bimedina: I figure if someone doesn't like my name they can create an alias for it by just duplicating the defcun in most cases 2014-06-19T12:19:34Z hitecnologys: No, it's not a good idea. OpenCV is OpenCV. It has nothing to do with your library. If you're making a copy of OpenCV, it doesn't free your from responsivility to document your code. 2014-06-19T12:19:55Z hitecnologys: s/your/you/ 2014-06-19T12:20:03Z hitecnologys: Bleh. 2014-06-19T12:20:11Z hitecnologys: Too many mistakes. 2014-06-19T12:20:49Z hitecnologys: s/responsivility/responsibility/ 2014-06-19T12:20:56Z joe-w-bimedina: I've documented more than anyone has documented so far, so I should be good there...I think I beat cffi or am close 2014-06-19T12:21:08Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-19T12:21:32Z joe-w-bimedina: just needed advice on that one thing...you guys have probably seen more libraries than me 2014-06-19T12:23:23Z joe-w-bimedina: no pressure though I can just mul it around 2014-06-19T12:23:48Z sohail_ joined #lisp 2014-06-19T12:25:31Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-19T12:26:31Z sohail_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-19T12:26:56Z axion: (cffi:defcfun ("cvSubS_glue" %subtract-scalar-glue) :void ...) 2014-06-19T12:27:23Z joe-w-bimedina: what is that 2014-06-19T12:27:29Z kanru` joined #lisp 2014-06-19T12:27:32Z joe-w-bimedina: from cl-opencv right 2014-06-19T12:27:52Z axion: yes, as you see, they didn't name it cv-sub-s, or sub-s 2014-06-19T12:29:47Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-19T12:29:48Z sroy joined #lisp 2014-06-19T12:32:06Z joe-w-bimedina: but save for a couple tiny memory leaks my library is better than cl-opencv, I even figured out one of the authors (who has helped me a bit actually) of cl-opencv's errors so I, saying with the utmost respect, kinda gotta follow my gut. I just don't want to type subtract-scalar :), I made mine just "sub" with methods 2014-06-19T12:33:18Z axion: you don't use slime? 2014-06-19T12:33:51Z joe-w-bimedina: I do...I love slime/emacs/sbcl 2014-06-19T12:34:01Z hitecnologys: Err... 2014-06-19T12:34:21Z H4ns: joe-w-bimedina: is anyone using your library? 2014-06-19T12:34:37Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-06-19T12:35:17Z joe-w-bimedina: me:) otherwise I couldn't possibly know...it's still in process 2014-06-19T12:35:58Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: you're either a big fat green troll or just don't understand what do you want from this channel. 2014-06-19T12:36:46Z hitecnologys: Damn it. s/just/I just/ 2014-06-19T12:36:54Z axion: nobody can type today 2014-06-19T12:37:14Z hitecnologys: Apparently, yes. 2014-06-19T12:37:55Z dandersen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-19T12:38:00Z joe-w-bimedina: just advice so I can fine tune the whole make-* idea, we can just drop it 4 now, I can mul it over...probably look at libraries, save you kind people the hassel on this 2014-06-19T12:38:38Z axion: you are looking for advice that meets your preferences 2014-06-19T12:39:58Z hitecnologys: axion: no, he's looking for somebody who will admit that his way of doing things is fine. 2014-06-19T12:40:16Z Xach: tjo 2014-06-19T12:41:07Z joe-w-bimedina: EXACTLY.....you are astute....I did accept the make-* idea but am molding it to suit my design but I did ask the question today because I know how goog/experienced you guys are and was hoping to draw on your knowledge for that piece 2014-06-19T12:41:20Z joe-w-bimedina: good 2014-06-19T12:43:01Z Soft- joined #lisp 2014-06-19T12:44:03Z Fare joined #lisp 2014-06-19T12:45:18Z knob joined #lisp 2014-06-19T12:46:16Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-19T12:47:11Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-19T12:47:12Z htmzr quit (Quit: ZNC - 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Of course, they will call a make-matrix. 2014-06-19T14:21:44Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-19T14:22:26Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-06-19T14:22:39Z joe-w-bimedina: ok, thank you very much for your advice, I will do just that:) 2014-06-19T14:22:53Z pjb: eg. + makes a number, but we don't call it (make-number :op 'sum :a 1 :b 2) we call it (+ 1 2). 2014-06-19T14:23:34Z Zhivago: (make-+ 1 2) 2014-06-19T14:23:37Z pjb: :-) 2014-06-19T14:23:45Z leo2007 quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.4.50.1) 2014-06-19T14:24:12Z joe-w-bimedina: funny...thats a good point, so would referring to Lisps own naming conventions vbe the way to be the most "correct" or accessible 2014-06-19T14:24:30Z joe-w-bimedina: in all situations 2014-06-19T14:24:42Z Zhivago: Except where they are silly. 2014-06-19T14:24:48Z hitecnologys: (operate (make-op :type (make-type 'sum)) :args (make-args-list 1 2)) 2014-06-19T14:25:02Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: notice also, that constructors are somehow in procedural style: with make- you'd create an object that is mutable. If you were to adopt a more functional style, you could just call the "constructor" from the type: (matrix (column 1 2 3) (column 4 5 6)) -> # 2014-06-19T14:25:53Z pjb: hitecnologys: it's always possible to reify one more level (it's introducing a level of indirection, and offers the possibly of performing a level of meta processing). 2014-06-19T14:26:03Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-19T14:26:35Z tensorpudding quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-19T14:27:17Z joe-w-bimedina: that is what I was doing but I'm trying to stick closer to OpenCV naming conventions and the type usually has the same name as a method. Calling as type limited the defmethods I can create 2014-06-19T14:27:36Z joe-w-bimedina: ...as bindings 2014-06-19T14:27:43Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: with a form such as (matrix (column 1 2 3) (column 4 5 6)), you are building a matrix DSL. With make-matrix, you stay firmly in the CL language. An expression containing only forms such as (matrix (column 1 2 3) (column 4 5 6)) could easily be processed otherwise (translated into other language, pretty printed to LaTeX, etc). 2014-06-19T14:28:04Z pjb: It would be less easy with lisp expressions (you would have to implement eventually a whole CL). 2014-06-19T14:28:05Z hitecnologys: pjb: I like indirections too much, I guess. 2014-06-19T14:28:34Z joe-w-bimedina: what is DSL 2014-06-19T14:29:28Z pjb: joe-w-bimedina: right. In this case you can architecture it with two level: a low level API matching OpenCV (good since this avoids you writing the documentation, just refer to the original OpenCV doc), and one or more higher levels that you can build on it, providing DSL in various paradigm. 2014-06-19T14:29:35Z pjb: DSL = Domain Specific Language 2014-06-19T14:29:39Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: domain specific language 2014-06-19T14:30:34Z przl_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-19T14:32:17Z joe-w-bimedina: Thats exactly what I'm trying to do!, that is really good advice, the 2 architecture thing, thank you 2014-06-19T14:34:16Z Fare: did you look into mgl-mat ? 2014-06-19T14:34:28Z Fare: https://github.com/melisgl/mgl-mat 2014-06-19T14:34:32Z joe-w-bimedina: is that to me 2014-06-19T14:34:34Z _schulte_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-19T14:34:35Z Fare: yes 2014-06-19T14:34:49Z Fare: he has CUDA, BLAS, CUBLAS support 2014-06-19T14:34:55Z Fare: OpenCV should fit, too 2014-06-19T14:35:16Z joe-w-bimedina: what is mgl-mat...to translate OpenCV matrices to lisp matrices? 2014-06-19T14:35:23Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2014-06-19T14:35:54Z tensorpudding joined #lisp 2014-06-19T14:37:27Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-19T14:37:27Z Fare: once again, he has CUDA BLAS and CUBLAS support, but I don't think OpenCV yet — but his architecture probably allows for that to happen 2014-06-19T14:37:37Z Fare: i.e. a matter of adding a backend 2014-06-19T14:37:40Z mega1`: no OpenCV 2014-06-19T14:38:03Z mega1`: how does opencv store matrices? 2014-06-19T14:38:12Z Fare: might be better to add opencv to mgl-mat than to start a new matrix library from scratch, is all I'm saying 2014-06-19T14:38:20Z Fare: see my Library Consolidation rant. 2014-06-19T14:38:21Z Natch joined #lisp 2014-06-19T14:38:47Z Fare: mega1`, hi 2014-06-19T14:38:52Z mega1`: hello 2014-06-19T14:39:16Z Fare: btw, I didn't tell you yet, but I did find your ELS 2014 talk inspiring. 2014-06-19T14:39:29Z Fare: so thank you. 2014-06-19T14:40:05Z mega1`: You watched the video? 2014-06-19T14:40:57Z Fare: yes 2014-06-19T14:41:04Z Fare: apologies for missing it live 2014-06-19T14:41:32Z mega1`: you're forgiven 2014-06-19T14:41:59Z splittist: no penance? 2014-06-19T14:42:00Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks for the info, will be implementing CUDA soon, would like to buddy up with GSLL though...its an awesome library 2014-06-19T14:47:04Z ghard joined #lisp 2014-06-19T14:49:02Z joe-w-bimedina: pjb: the 2 architecture thing does get a bit difficult on low level functions because I have to define all instances of an overloaded OpenCV constructor by different names 2014-06-19T14:51:10Z joe-w-bimedina: pjb: my best guess so far is to just provide aliases of each highlevel function that overloads the multiple low-level functions eg a mat and a make-mat 2014-06-19T14:51:24Z Ralt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-19T14:51:31Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 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timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-19T15:28:12Z fourier` joined #lisp 2014-06-19T15:28:25Z JuanDaugherty: funny you mention that Fare 2014-06-19T15:28:45Z JuanDaugherty: it occassions yet another burroughs/MCP anecdote 2014-06-19T15:29:18Z Fare: JuanDaugherty, yes? 2014-06-19T15:29:19Z JuanDaugherty: on those systems whenever a program in any lang has an exception the OS reports the line of code 2014-06-19T15:29:41Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-19T15:30:15Z JuanDaugherty: i.e. that sort of thing is best addressed in a comprehensive arch 2014-06-19T15:31:12Z xificurC quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-19T15:31:17Z JuanDaugherty: i think I'm a clojure despiser/denier but not 100% about the permanent kibosh yet 2014-06-19T15:31:30Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-19T15:31:30Z Fare: btw, the remarks above were on the wrong channel, but I found that clojure had a LineNumberingPushbackReader 2014-06-19T15:31:38Z Fare: denier? 2014-06-19T15:32:15Z Fare: JuanDaugherty, racket has source location deeply embedded in its programmable syntax architecture 2014-06-19T15:32:24Z fourier` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-19T15:32:28Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-19T15:32:29Z qiemem quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-06-19T15:32:31Z JuanDaugherty: yes it would be 2014-06-19T15:32:33Z Fare: why despiser / denier ? 2014-06-19T15:32:39Z JuanDaugherty: because that's the approach it takes 2014-06-19T15:32:44Z Fare: as compared to? 2014-06-19T15:32:53Z Fare: ok, now you have to spill the beans 2014-06-19T15:33:16Z JuanDaugherty: as opposed to CL where you have the lisp implementation and other things 2014-06-19T15:33:24Z Fare: I mean, clojure is not perfect, but it does take a good practical approach at providing a lisp for the jvm. 2014-06-19T15:33:31Z JuanDaugherty: in Racket per the scheme ethos it's all unified 2014-06-19T15:33:40Z JuanDaugherty: and simplified 2014-06-19T15:33:49Z dlowe: I took a crack at clojure and I found it very difficult without knowledge of Java 2014-06-19T15:33:57Z JuanDaugherty: well it's the whole thing of lisp in java 2014-06-19T15:34:01Z dlowe: especially when things went wrong 2014-06-19T15:34:17Z JuanDaugherty: which is repugnant in principle 2014-06-19T15:34:32Z Fare: dlowe: the whole point of clojure, I suppose, was to integrate well with java. 2014-06-19T15:34:44Z dlowe: Fare: sure, but at the time, it didn't stand up well enough on its own 2014-06-19T15:34:45Z Fare: JuanDaugherty, still better than java in java, IMHO 2014-06-19T15:34:51Z dlowe: Things may have improved since 2014-06-19T15:34:57Z Fare: they probably have 2014-06-19T15:35:08Z Fare: there is a clojurescript, so probably 2014-06-19T15:35:09Z dlowe: Also, it was far too heavyweight to be used on mobile, which is the one place I was interested in using Java 2014-06-19T15:35:13Z JuanDaugherty: i prefer java as an enterprise platform to MS by some margin 2014-06-19T15:35:53Z Fare: there are various lisps for mobile. ccl runs on android and ios, but I don't know if it has enough system / UI integration to do anything useful 2014-06-19T15:35:54Z JuanDaugherty: not a huge one since I have a huge history in the dos platform back to IBM Boca in the 80s 2014-06-19T15:36:09Z Fare: mocl of course runs on both ios and android 2014-06-19T15:36:10Z draculus quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-19T15:36:15Z dlowe: Fare: kawascheme seemed the best option at the time on android 2014-06-19T15:36:38Z dlowe: but all that was years ago 2014-06-19T15:37:01Z draculus joined #lisp 2014-06-19T15:37:04Z dlowe: I'd probably use mocl now 2014-06-19T15:37:31Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-19T15:39:54Z Ralt joined #lisp 2014-06-19T15:43:08Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-06-19T15:43:59Z Fare: JuanDaugherty, I can't speak for the whole MS ecosystem, but the .NET CLR seemed to me much better engineered than the JVM. 2014-06-19T15:44:17Z Fare: with the benefit of hindsight, no doubt 2014-06-19T15:45:12Z JuanDaugherty: it's a tight but relatively provincial platform, in comparison java is more cosmopolitan if you will 2014-06-19T15:45:38Z p_l: most importantly, it was built with lessons from Java 2014-06-19T15:45:45Z jdtcooki` joined #lisp 2014-06-19T15:45:45Z JuanDaugherty: and today you can work with it for next to nothing 2014-06-19T15:45:49Z JuanDaugherty: as a developer 2014-06-19T15:46:29Z JuanDaugherty: basically a licensed copy of dos 2014-06-19T15:47:11Z JuanDaugherty: the fact that they're now the despised platform makes things a lot easier there a lot of times 2014-06-19T15:47:26Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-19T15:47:37Z JuanDaugherty: s/despised/deprecated, whatever/ 2014-06-19T15:48:01Z jdtcookie quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-19T15:48:28Z p_l: dlowe: kawascheme was used by the AppInventor or whatever the block-based thing was called 2014-06-19T15:48:37Z JuanDaugherty: apple pretty much is the them of the 90s 2014-06-19T15:49:39Z LiamH 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bobbysmith007: is anything else beside `error` a `serious-condition` according to the spec? Just ran afoul of sbcl's with-deadline timeouts being a serious-condition but not an error (and crashing our old ucw web server incidentally). Changing all my handler-bind errors to serious-conditions had me wondering about why that distinction exists in the spec 2014-06-19T17:48:09Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-19T17:48:33Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-19T17:48:55Z foreignFunction joined #lisp 2014-06-19T17:53:27Z Bike: serious-condition is usually a superclass, it means anything requiring human intervention if not handled 2014-06-19T17:53:40Z Bike: a deadline passing isn't really an error, since you might just want that behavior, i guess 2014-06-19T17:57:12Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-19T17:58:11Z AdmiralBumbleBee quit (Quit: AdmiralBumbleBee) 2014-06-19T18:02:37Z c74d3 joined #lisp 2014-06-19T18:08:55Z BitPuffin quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-19T18:08:55Z ramkrsna quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-19T18:08:55Z jaimef quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-19T18:08:55Z KCL quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-19T18:08:55Z kobain quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-19T18:08:55Z leo2007 quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-19T18:08:55Z 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joined #lisp 2014-06-19T18:12:31Z pjb: bobbysmith007: (handler-case (thing) (condition (cond) …)) 2014-06-19T18:13:08Z pjb: bobbysmith007: on the other hand, doing that may be rather dangerous, because implementation specific conditions may have to be processed in a specific way to keep the implementation invariants, and similarly for libraries. 2014-06-19T18:13:39Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-19T18:14:06Z dbushenko quit (Quit: Ухожу я от вас (xchat 2.4.5 или старше)) 2014-06-19T18:14:13Z mikaelj_ joined #lisp 2014-06-19T18:14:17Z c74d joined #lisp 2014-06-19T18:14:24Z d4gg4d___ joined #lisp 2014-06-19T18:14:37Z FracV_ joined #lisp 2014-06-19T18:14:40Z bobbysmith007: yeah, swallowing all errors indiscriminately is rarely the correct answer... 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Two (or more) servers disconnected from each other. 2014-06-19T18:18:56Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks, never seen that befor 2014-06-19T18:19:18Z heddwch: np. Not been on IRC very long? 2014-06-19T18:20:04Z joe-w-bimedina: noob, my first month, 2014-06-19T18:21:02Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-19T18:21:51Z heddwch: ah :) 2014-06-19T18:27:02Z rszeno joined #lisp 2014-06-19T18:27:11Z rszeno quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-19T18:27:31Z rszeno joined #lisp 2014-06-19T18:31:07Z test1600 joined #lisp 2014-06-19T18:32:49Z karswell quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-19T18:33:04Z knob quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-19T18:33:04Z JuanDaugherty quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-19T18:33:04Z brucem quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-19T18:33:07Z JuanitoJons quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-19T18:33:12Z jrm quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-19T18:33:20Z brucem joined #lisp 2014-06-19T18:33:22Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-06-19T18:33:27Z oleo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-06-19T18:33:33Z JuanitoJons joined #lisp 2014-06-19T18:33:36Z knob joined #lisp 2014-06-19T18:33:47Z FracV quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-19T18:33:47Z aeth quit (Remote host closed 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terminated!) 2014-06-19T20:26:02Z monod quit (Quit: Quit) 2014-06-19T20:26:59Z monod joined #lisp 2014-06-19T20:32:48Z foreignFunction quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-19T20:37:57Z kcj quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-19T20:42:05Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2014-06-19T20:43:03Z joe-w-bimedina quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2014-06-19T20:44:54Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-19T20:46:27Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-19T20:48:26Z monod quit (Quit: Quit) 2014-06-19T20:49:19Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-19T20:49:36Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-19T20:51:56Z genkinodenki quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-19T20:52:21Z ramkrsna quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-19T20:54:06Z knob quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-19T20:58:52Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-19T20:59:12Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-19T21:01:43Z patrickwonders joined #lisp 2014-06-19T21:02:15Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-19T21:04:59Z Code_Man` quit (Remote 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to get sub-second file modification time? 2014-06-19T22:33:34Z Oberon4278 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-19T22:34:25Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-19T22:34:52Z JuanitoJons quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-19T22:35:16Z avery joined #lisp 2014-06-19T22:35:38Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2014-06-19T22:37:22Z jasom: I swear iolib/syscalls:stat-mtime used to be non-integer, but I could be remembering wrong 2014-06-19T22:37:46Z p_l: jasom: try getting the raw results of stat() call on POSIX OSes, then try getting tv_nsec member of the timestamp structs... 2014-06-19T22:41:52Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-19T22:41:58Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-06-19T22:41:58Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-19T22:44:45Z doomlor__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-19T22:46:01Z tensorpudding quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-19T22:47:03Z innertracks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-19T22:48:19Z 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2014-06-20T01:02:31Z ovidnis quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-20T01:02:48Z ovidnis joined #lisp 2014-06-20T01:06:03Z Bike: the commercial ones, whatever drmeister's thing is called now 2014-06-20T01:06:24Z clop2: lispworks and allegro are the commercial ones? or maybe scieneer too? 2014-06-20T01:06:48Z Bike: i think scieneer is pretty dead 2014-06-20T01:08:10Z clop2: aah, good to know 2014-06-20T01:08:22Z clop2: gcl-devel doesn't seem like it gets much traffic, i'm less sure about cmucl 2014-06-20T01:09:06Z JuanDaugherty: clop y both CL and scheme 2014-06-20T01:09:29Z JuanDaugherty: clop2 ^ 2014-06-20T01:10:00Z JuanDaugherty: prolly a good 10 or more 2014-06-20T01:10:13Z clop2: i'm mostly interested in CL only, because the code base we're maintaining is in Common Lisp 2014-06-20T01:10:18Z JuanDaugherty: (including those 2) 2014-06-20T01:10:49Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-06-20T01:10:55Z JuanDaugherty: one way to look at it is sbcl, lw, and allegro 2014-06-20T01:11:47Z JuanDaugherty: and everything else; you haven't mentioned if you have special requirements like embedded 2014-06-20T01:12:23Z clop2: ah, right, sorry, we have a sort of workstation/server kind of application 2014-06-20T01:12:48Z clop2: you want a fast system with ample memory, not any embedded thing 2014-06-20T01:13:02Z JuanDaugherty: do you need support from the implementators? 2014-06-20T01:13:31Z clop2: we've been using ccl mainly and have gotten good support (from clozure) 2014-06-20T01:13:40Z JuanDaugherty: memory is just a matter of configuration, outside of scope of lisp 2014-06-20T01:13:52Z JuanDaugherty: other than programming bugs of course 2014-06-20T01:14:30Z JuanDaugherty: unless you mean you have special hdware configs with unusual address spaces and need a matching lisp 2014-06-20T01:14:59Z clop2: no nothing like that, just need a Lisp that can deal with big memories and where we can set up large stacks, etc 2014-06-20T01:15:07Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-20T01:15:23Z JuanDaugherty: the all have facilities for that 2014-06-20T01:15:26Z JuanDaugherty: y 2014-06-20T01:15:47Z clop2: i think i had run into limits of, e.g., cmucl, not being able to scale beyond 1.5 GB or similar, but that was some years ago 2014-06-20T01:16:22Z JuanDaugherty: sbcl forked from cmucl about a decade ago 2014-06-20T01:16:41Z avery_ joined #lisp 2014-06-20T01:16:59Z JuanDaugherty: it's the dominant free implementation now 2014-06-20T01:17:09Z JuanDaugherty: cmucl is still actively maintained though 2014-06-20T01:17:19Z JuanDaugherty: and I doubt it still has that limit 2014-06-20T01:17:46Z clop2: ok, maybe i should give it another try 2014-06-20T01:18:36Z araujo joined #lisp 2014-06-20T01:18:36Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2014-06-20T01:18:36Z araujo joined #lisp 2014-06-20T01:19:22Z avery quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-20T01:19:22Z avery_ is now known as avery 2014-06-20T01:19:37Z askatasuna quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-20T01:19:46Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-20T01:20:20Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-06-20T01:22:34Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-20T01:22:57Z Guest351O2 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-20T01:23:15Z avery_ joined #lisp 2014-06-20T01:23:26Z zRecursive: I am curious why commercial CLs are so expensive when there are free SBCL ,CCL, etc. ? 2014-06-20T01:24:00Z heddwch: The same reason Windows runs $300+ when there's Linux 2014-06-20T01:24:47Z avery quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-20T01:24:47Z avery_ is now known as avery 2014-06-20T01:25:13Z clop2: what? commercial CL's can run MS office? :) 2014-06-20T01:25:25Z heddwch: lol 2014-06-20T01:25:32Z heddwch: I was more meaning because somebody will pay for it. 2014-06-20T01:26:37Z nialo joined #lisp 2014-06-20T01:26:39Z jchochli_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-20T01:28:29Z jaimef quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-20T01:29:08Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-20T01:31:09Z ahungry: who uses paredit mode (and those who do - ever use evil-mode with it?) 2014-06-20T01:31:36Z heddwch: Yes and no 2014-06-20T01:32:15Z heddwch: Well, I use smartparens now 2014-06-20T01:34:45Z ovidnis quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-20T01:34:55Z ovidnis joined #lisp 2014-06-20T01:36:34Z jaimef joined #lisp 2014-06-20T01:41:27Z jiteboxr quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-20T01:41:33Z ered quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-20T01:41:35Z ered-away joined #lisp 2014-06-20T01:44:06Z dsturnbu1l joined #lisp 2014-06-20T01:46:05Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2014-06-20T01:46:28Z ered-away quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-20T01:52:10Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-20T01:54:16Z mhd joined #lisp 2014-06-20T01:57:12Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-06-20T02:11:06Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-20T02:12:33Z zimri-lim quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-20T02:13:18Z MjrTom quit (Quit: Planet Earth is blue, and there's nothing I can do) 2014-06-20T02:14:05Z zimri-lim joined #lisp 2014-06-20T02:16:54Z mhd quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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I do (with-slots (matrix modules) (cl-qrencode:encode "Test" ) (print matrix) (print modules)) 2014-06-20T03:02:05Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2014-06-20T03:02:22Z kremmen: Then I get a slot-missing error. Sorry for formatting. New to IRC. 2014-06-20T03:02:50Z Bike: Are you sure matrix and modules are slot names? 2014-06-20T03:04:00Z kremmen: Here is the class definition 2014-06-20T03:04:13Z Bike: paste it on paste.lisp.org and not here, please 2014-06-20T03:04:29Z kremmen: (defclass qr-symbol () 2014-06-20T03:04:29Z kremmen: ((matrix :initform nil :initarg :matrix :reader matrix 2014-06-20T03:04:29Z kremmen: :documentation "qr code symbol as matrix") 2014-06-20T03:04:29Z kremmen: (modules :initform nil :initarg :modules :reader modules 2014-06-20T03:04:29Z kremmen: :documentation "qr code symbol modules"))) 2014-06-20T03:04:29Z kremmen: (defclass qr-symbol () 2014-06-20T03:04:29Z kremmen: ((matrix :initform nil :initarg :matrix :reader matrix 2014-06-20T03:04:30Z kremmen: :documentation "qr code symbol as matrix") 2014-06-20T03:04:30Z kremmen: (modules :initform nil :initarg :modules :reader modules 2014-06-20T03:04:31Z kremmen: :documentation "qr code symbol modules"))) 2014-06-20T03:04:31Z kremmen: Ah, thanks 2014-06-20T03:04:34Z kremmen: Sorry 2014-06-20T03:05:20Z Bike: probably you need to use the same package. 2014-06-20T03:05:28Z Bike: so (with-slots (cl-qrencode:matrix) ...) 2014-06-20T03:05:47Z kremmen: Okay, let me give that a go. 2014-06-20T03:05:55Z Fare: kremmen: bad package? 2014-06-20T03:06:03Z Fare: are your symbols in the correct package? 2014-06-20T03:06:18Z Fare: slot names are often not exported -- use with-accessors 2014-06-20T03:06:41Z Fare: or quux:with-prefixed-accessors 2014-06-20T03:06:47Z kremmen: Ah, okay. I'll try with-accessors. That's two good ideas so far. 2014-06-20T03:06:57Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-20T03:07:09Z Fare: too bad no one is organizing the code in quux into usable libraries 2014-06-20T03:07:33Z kremmen: I'll just try both of those, but have to run off for a second.... 2014-06-20T03:07:50Z Bike: Fare: in t his case the accessors and slot names have the same names, so they're probably exported 2014-06-20T03:08:23Z Fare: describe can help you see the qualified slot names, depending on the implementation 2014-06-20T03:09:47Z zimri-lim joined #lisp 2014-06-20T03:13:47Z kremmen: Hmm, tried with-accessors, got "the symbol is is not external in the package" 2014-06-20T03:14:09Z Bike: well then. 2014-06-20T03:14:17Z Bike: how do the docs say to access the matrix and modules? 2014-06-20T03:14:39Z kremmen: But, if I use ::, I can suddenly see everything... 2014-06-20T03:15:22Z Bike: yes, that lets you access internal symbols. 2014-06-20T03:15:34Z kremmen: I should have thought of that.... 2014-06-20T03:15:40Z kremmen: Thank you 2014-06-20T03:16:17Z Bike: kremmen: looking at github, matrix and modules are probably exported, but the commit was only 22 hr ago. 2014-06-20T03:16:21Z Fare: kremmen: you can explicitly import non-internal symbols, or just prefix them with :: 2014-06-20T03:16:32Z Bike: properly* 2014-06-20T03:16:36Z Bike: i mean, they're definitely exported. 2014-06-20T03:16:55Z kremmen: Doing a bit of a wrap up, the matrix and modules are not really exported. I think the author thought that users would only want to generate png files, but I'd like to get straight at the data and do my own thing 2014-06-20T03:17:11Z Bike: they are in the bleeding edge version, i mean 2014-06-20T03:17:16Z Bike: library seems pretty new 2014-06-20T03:17:35Z kremmen: I think it is. Just turned up on Quicklisp. 2014-06-20T03:17:43Z Bike: https://github.com/jnjcc/cl-qrencode/blob/master/packages.lisp#L18-19 2014-06-20T03:18:18Z kremmen: I grabbed it because I was using a python QR generator before. Will be nice to do everything in CL. 2014-06-20T03:18:51Z kremmen: If I just get down the package.lisp, I guess I can just drop it into the folder? 2014-06-20T03:19:42Z Bike: i would recommend just using :: and waiting for an update 2014-06-20T03:20:06Z kremmen: Yes, that makes sense. Stay with the mainline version. 2014-06-20T03:21:11Z kremmen: Thanks all for your help. I've learnt something new. Hopefully will chat again some time 2014-06-20T03:22:48Z kremmen: Ah, quick Q for next time wrt to paste.lisp.org 2014-06-20T03:22:59Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-20T03:23:20Z kremmen: before, I should have added http://paste.lisp.org/+32AN this is a link to my paste, yes? 2014-06-20T03:23:38Z Bike: yup 2014-06-20T03:23:55Z nug700 joined #lisp 2014-06-20T03:24:05Z kremmen: Cool, will do next time. 2014-06-20T03:24:33Z Fare: kremmen, if you can add a command-line interface using cl-launch and command-line-arguments and/or clon, that would be great 2014-06-20T03:26:24Z kremmen: Fare, Okay, great. Is there an example of one somewhere that I can shamelessly copy as a template? 2014-06-20T03:27:00Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-06-20T03:29:47Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-20T03:33:41Z Fare: dunno. I have a trivial tthsum binary somewhere 2014-06-20T03:34:51Z Fare: it doesn't use the latestest capabilities of cl-launch, but it works 2014-06-20T03:35:07Z Fare: on cl-launch, at least on linux, you can #!/usr/bin/cl 2014-06-20T03:35:18Z Fare: I fear that doesn't work on BSD, though 2014-06-20T03:37:04Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-20T03:38:15Z JuanDaugherty quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-20T03:38:57Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-20T03:39:15Z JuniorRoy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-20T03:42:35Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-20T03:43:09Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-06-20T03:43:33Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-20T03:45:15Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-20T03:47:51Z nipra quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-20T03:51:05Z RenJuan joined #lisp 2014-06-20T03:55:21Z zimri-lim quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2014-06-20T03:57:55Z samebchase quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-20T03:58:07Z zimri-lim joined #lisp 2014-06-20T03:58:39Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-20T03:58:43Z nialo` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-20T03:59:13Z kyl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-20T03:59:15Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-20T03:59:28Z nialo` joined #lisp 2014-06-20T04:00:18Z kyl joined #lisp 2014-06-20T04:01:40Z zimri-lim quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-20T04:03:11Z mhd joined #lisp 2014-06-20T04:03:27Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-20T04:05:46Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-20T04:07:10Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-20T04:08:06Z zimri-lim joined #lisp 2014-06-20T04:08:45Z samebchase joined #lisp 2014-06-20T04:11:29Z zimri-lim quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-20T04:13:05Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-20T04:14:21Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-20T04:15:37Z Mon_Ouie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-20T04:16:20Z kremmen left #lisp 2014-06-20T04:16:28Z mhd quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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2014-06-20T14:52:33Z jusss quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-20T14:53:07Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-20T14:53:48Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-20T14:56:59Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-20T14:57:44Z joe-w-bimedina joined #lisp 2014-06-20T14:58:15Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-20T14:59:56Z aftershave joined #lisp 2014-06-20T15:02:07Z xyjprc joined #lisp 2014-06-20T15:04:59Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-20T15:05:58Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-20T15:06:06Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-20T15:07:12Z Rptx joined #lisp 2014-06-20T15:08:04Z Ralt quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-20T15:09:40Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-06-20T15:10:37Z Sir_herrbatka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-20T15:10:51Z Denommus: hi 2014-06-20T15:11:53Z eudoxia: good morning 2014-06-20T15:11:53Z minion: eudoxia, memo from pjb: then the CLP, should promote writing an Ada compiler in Common Lisp, for legacy government code. 2014-06-20T15:13:02Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-20T15:13:57Z eudoxia: i thought minion memoed you when you logged in 2014-06-20T15:14:04Z eudoxia: i guess this makes more sense 2014-06-20T15:14:39Z Denommus: eudoxia: IIRC, there's a FreeNode bot for on-login memos 2014-06-20T15:14:41Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-20T15:14:57Z Bike: memoserv. 2014-06-20T15:16:33Z Denommus: Bike: yup, that's right 2014-06-20T15:16:40Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-06-20T15:18:55Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-20T15:20:15Z Guest351O2 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-20T15:20:27Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2014-06-20T15:21:30Z Guest351O2 joined #lisp 2014-06-20T15:21:43Z lambda left #lisp 2014-06-20T15:27:17Z zacharias quit (Quit: Bye!) 2014-06-20T15:28:52Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-20T15:28:56Z jusss quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-20T15:29:52Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-20T15:30:08Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-06-20T15:30:26Z hlavaty: Xach: slime HEAD seems to fix the sbcl issue 2014-06-20T15:31:11Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-20T15:31:34Z knob joined #lisp 2014-06-20T15:32:18Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-20T15:34:11Z atgreen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-20T15:35:25Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-20T15:37:03Z Guest351O2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-20T15:39:22Z Guest351O2 joined #lisp 2014-06-20T15:45:38Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-20T15:50:47Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-20T15:57:42Z joe-w-bimedina: does lisp have a keyword or symbol class, that I can use to restrict the type of a parameter supplied to a method 2014-06-20T15:59:10Z fortitude: joe-w-bimedina: there's a system-class SYMBOL (http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_symbol.htm) 2014-06-20T15:59:42Z fortitude: keyword looks like it's just a type, though 2014-06-20T16:00:19Z joe-w-bimedina: thank you I do appreciate that 2014-06-20T16:01:30Z przl_ joined #lisp 2014-06-20T16:01:52Z draculus quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-20T16:02:14Z przl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-20T16:02:29Z xyjprc quit (Quit: Going fishing) 2014-06-20T16:02:51Z Fare: joe-w-bimedina, symbol is a specializable class indeed 2014-06-20T16:03:01Z Fare: unhappily, on some old implementations, keyword isn't a class 2014-06-20T16:03:35Z joe-w-bimedina: great, thanks:) 2014-06-20T16:03:58Z Fare: so specializing on keyword, while possible, isn't portable. 2014-06-20T16:03:59Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-20T16:04:22Z Fare: which you may or may not care about 2014-06-20T16:04:25Z joe-w-bimedina: even with the symbol class 2014-06-20T16:04:32Z joe-w-bimedina: i do care about it 2014-06-20T16:05:59Z przl_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-20T16:06:49Z Fare: your method on symbol (or an around method) could do something special if it's a keyword 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inactivity) 2014-06-20T17:38:06Z cpc26 quit 2014-06-20T17:38:10Z joe-w-bimedina: is this the best way to get past the "nil is not a real" error when making coerce take (first args) as a parameter or is there a faster way? https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/e79732e51188aa34aef1 2014-06-20T17:38:25Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2014-06-20T17:38:36Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-20T17:38:56Z dlowe: (let ((val (or (first args) 0))) 2014-06-20T17:40:27Z jusss quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-20T17:41:00Z joe-w-bimedina: dlowe: is the fastest way to do this? 2014-06-20T17:41:00Z billstclair: Or just (coerce (or val 0.0d0) 'double-float) 2014-06-20T17:41:04Z FracV joined #lisp 2014-06-20T17:41:31Z billstclair: We're talking nanonseconds here on a modern computer. Method dispatch is going be much more of an issue 2014-06-20T17:42:53Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-20T17:43:50Z avery quit (Quit: avery) 2014-06-20T17:44:08Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: in general the idiom for "I want the value X, unless X is nill, in which case I want Y" is (or X Y) 2014-06-20T17:44:47Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: and since car and cdr preserve nil, you can even do things like (or (cadr X) Y) 2014-06-20T17:45:03Z foreignFunction joined #lisp 2014-06-20T17:45:20Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-20T17:45:40Z crelix quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-20T17:46:09Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2014-06-20T17:47:24Z joe-w-bimedina: I appreciate all the advice on this, after typing billstclair: idea turned out to be fastest 2014-06-20T17:48:01Z billstclair: Well, you could elide the coerce call for the nil case (if val (coerce val 'doublt-float) 0.0d0) 2014-06-20T17:48:25Z billstclair: if you're counting cycles 2014-06-20T17:48:34Z billstclair: But that's not usually a good idea 2014-06-20T17:49:12Z joe-w-bimedina: just counting time for now...would that help my time? 2014-06-20T17:49:49Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-20T17:49:54Z billstclair: It's slight faster for the null case 2014-06-20T17:49:57Z billstclair: slightly 2014-06-20T17:50:59Z joe-w-bimedina: it is designed never to be null...just to fix that error 2014-06-20T17:51:06Z Vicfred quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-20T17:51:32Z billstclair: Then you can just call coerce, and let it error if nil is passed 2014-06-20T17:52:06Z billstclair: But a single null test is nearly free 2014-06-20T17:52:24Z billstclair: It would be one tight inner loop that would care 2014-06-20T17:52:31Z Vicfred joined #lisp 2014-06-20T17:52:59Z billstclair: And if you had such a tight inner loop, it would be the method dispatch that would kill you 2014-06-20T17:53:21Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: the speed of that method is going to be slower than doing method dispatch. If you want it to be faster, make it a non-generic function 2014-06-20T17:53:23Z billstclair: Worry about that when you have a real problem 2014-06-20T17:53:43Z joe-w-bimedina: billstclair: ok I was timing wrong...your idea barely has any overhead 2014-06-20T17:54:22Z joe-w-bimedina: dlowe: jasom: thank you for your help too 2014-06-20T17:54:40Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: also you can fail if the first argument is a complex number 2014-06-20T17:54:51Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: you can change the method signature to real instead of number if you care about that 2014-06-20T17:55:38Z Vicfred quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-20T17:56:22Z joe-w-bimedina: what is a complex number, only double-floats or integers should be input here, possibly many decimals 2014-06-20T17:56:36Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: a number with an imaginary part 2014-06-20T17:56:51Z jasom: joe-w-bimedina: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_number 2014-06-20T17:58:42Z Inops joined #lisp 2014-06-20T17:59:11Z joe-w-bimedina: jasom: thanks for link 2014-06-20T17:59:58Z Inops: No flamebait intended. I'm gonna work through SICP, which Lisp/Scheme implentation should I use? Thanks. 2014-06-20T18:00:27Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-20T18:00:52Z billstclair: Well, since SICP is Scheme, probably a Scheme. I haven't used one in years, so can't recommend 2014-06-20T18:01:08Z billstclair: Unless you want to learn by translating to Lisp 2014-06-20T18:01:18Z juanlas joined #lisp 2014-06-20T18:06:25Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-20T18:07:57Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2014-06-20T18:10:20Z Inops left #lisp 2014-06-20T18:10:26Z jasom: Inops: MIT Scheme (though scheme is off-topic here) 2014-06-20T18:12:35Z bjorkintosh: i thought Racket was the answer these days to all questions scheme? 2014-06-20T18:13:02Z jasom: bjorkintosh: Racket is diverging from scheme (That was the reason behind the rename IIRC) 2014-06-20T18:13:14Z bjorkintosh: i see. 2014-06-20T18:13:17Z bjorkintosh: what a racket. 2014-06-20T18:13:18Z jasom: and MIT Scheme is the scheme that was used four the course at MIT that SICP was used with 2014-06-20T18:13:58Z billstclair: Which I took way back in 1975 or thereabouts 2014-06-20T18:14:07Z billstclair: No. I didn't 2014-06-20T18:14:14Z billstclair: Scheme happened after I graduated, in 1979 2014-06-20T18:14:16Z GuilOooo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-20T18:14:18Z jasom: I don't think scheme existed in '75 2014-06-20T18:14:59Z billstclair: "The Scheme '79 Chip" 2014-06-20T18:15:05Z bjorkintosh: Planner maybe? 2014-06-20T18:15:10Z bjorkintosh: i've never seen it anywhere. 2014-06-20T18:15:29Z billstclair: No. 6.031 was PDP-11 assembler and a simple lisp interpreter on a PDP-11/45 2014-06-20T18:15:56Z billstclair: 6.030 was PL-1 on punched cards, IIRC 2014-06-20T18:16:02Z bjorkintosh: which book did you use for that, billstclair? 2014-06-20T18:16:10Z billstclair: Don't remember. 2014-06-20T18:16:13Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-20T18:16:15Z bjorkintosh: Anatomy of LISP? 2014-06-20T18:16:34Z billstclair: The Little Lisper is the only one I remember from that time, but it wasn't a course book 2014-06-20T18:17:01Z bjorkintosh: have any of you read anatomy of lisp? 2014-06-20T18:17:07Z oleo: not yet.... 2014-06-20T18:17:26Z billstclair: We did do Scheme in one of Sussman's classes in 77 or 78, but I don't remember on which machine 2014-06-20T18:17:32Z Sir_herrbatka joined #lisp 2014-06-20T18:18:17Z billstclair: There was a neat call-cc problem set, doing back-tracking 2014-06-20T18:18:29Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-06-20T18:18:43Z bjorkintosh: back-tracking as in prolog? 2014-06-20T18:18:58Z billstclair: SOmething like that, but it was much hairier with call-cc 2014-06-20T18:19:12Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-20T18:19:42Z pyx joined #lisp 2014-06-20T18:19:51Z Xach: bjorkintosh: I owned anatomy of lisp for a while, then sold it because I did not get around to reading it. 2014-06-20T18:20:13Z bjorkintosh: Xach, you sold a part of your anti-library? :O 2014-06-20T18:20:31Z bjorkintosh: when did you sell it? maybe i ended up buying it. it's right here. 2014-06-20T18:31:13Z bocaneri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-20T18:32:15Z billstclair quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-20T18:33:36Z billstclair joined #lisp 2014-06-20T18:33:36Z billstclair quit (Changing host) 2014-06-20T18:33:36Z billstclair joined #lisp 2014-06-20T18:33:57Z drmeiste_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-20T18:36:23Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-20T18:40:10Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-06-20T18:42:38Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-20T18:46:52Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2014-06-20T18:46:58Z Denommus` quit (Changing host) 2014-06-20T18:46:58Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2014-06-20T18:50:15Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-20T18:50:27Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-20T18:51:16Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-20T18:55:20Z cpc26 quit 2014-06-20T18:56:09Z mhi^ joined #lisp 2014-06-20T18:56:11Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-06-20T18:57:10Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-06-20T18:59:01Z orangeclaw joined #lisp 2014-06-20T18:59:11Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-20T19:00:04Z drdo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-20T19:01:18Z drdo joined #lisp 2014-06-20T19:01:33Z tensorpudding quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-20T19:02:33Z GuilOooo joined #lisp 2014-06-20T19:03:42Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-20T19:04:33Z aretecode joined #lisp 2014-06-20T19:04:43Z Abathurr quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-20T19:05:25Z Xach: a few years ago, in a batch of books 2014-06-20T19:09:30Z sandbenderca joined #lisp 2014-06-20T19:11:28Z ufd joined #lisp 2014-06-20T19:11:35Z lukego quit (Quit: lukego) 2014-06-20T19:12:42Z lukego joined #lisp 2014-06-20T19:21:31Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-20T19:25:38Z tbarletz quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-20T19:25:59Z tbarletz joined #lisp 2014-06-20T19:27:18Z orangeclaw quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-20T19:27:22Z forgottenone quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-20T19:28:16Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2014-06-20T19:28:16Z orangeclaw joined #lisp 2014-06-20T19:31:00Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-20T19:31:09Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-20T19:31:09Z MoALTz_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-20T19:31:14Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-20T19:32:42Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-20T19:33:40Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-20T19:33:50Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-20T19:38:16Z jasom: TIL that on sbcl #'bordeaux-threads:acquire-recursive-lock is a nop that always returns success 2014-06-20T19:39:15Z jasom: This explains my issues using one for mutual exclusion 2014-06-20T19:39:35Z jasom: with-recursive-lock actually does work; but acquire and release don't 2014-06-20T19:41:00Z Pullphinger quit 2014-06-20T19:43:45Z GuilOooo_ joined #lisp 2014-06-20T19:45:12Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-20T19:45:34Z jewel quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-06-20T19:45:39Z pjb: They should issue a warning… 2014-06-20T19:46:34Z GuilOooo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-20T19:46:42Z jewel joined #lisp 2014-06-20T19:47:17Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-20T19:47:22Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-20T19:48:13Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-20T19:48:26Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-20T19:49:29Z GuilOooo_ is now known as GuilOooo 2014-06-20T19:50:40Z jasom: pjb: Indeed. Well I just implemented it. It's trivial now that sbcl exports a function to check if the current-thread owns a mutex 2014-06-20T19:51:14Z jasom: Of course it will break any code that relies on mixing acquire-recursive-lock and the non-recursive versions on sbcl 2014-06-20T19:51:58Z jasom: (on sbcl the b-t recursive lock is just a mutex, since sb-threads has a macro for recursively executing a body on a standard mutex...) 2014-06-20T19:57:52Z orangeclaw quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-06-20T19:58:46Z orangeclaw joined #lisp 2014-06-20T19:58:59Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-20T20:01:33Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-20T20:02:02Z theos joined #lisp 2014-06-20T20:02:34Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-20T20:08:08Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-20T20:08:47Z foreignFunction quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-20T20:12:20Z ehu_ joined #lisp 2014-06-20T20:12:37Z DrCode quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-20T20:13:11Z DrCode joined #lisp 2014-06-20T20:13:56Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-20T20:16:39Z atgreen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-20T20:17:31Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-20T20:18:28Z pjb: jasom: way to go! Congratulations! 2014-06-20T20:25:18Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-20T20:30:04Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-20T20:30:40Z knob quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-20T20:31:09Z kirin` quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-20T20:31:40Z kirin` joined #lisp 2014-06-20T20:33:00Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-20T20:33:14Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-20T20:33:50Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-20T20:37:37Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2014-06-20T20:40:04Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-06-20T20:42:19Z orangeclaw left #lisp 2014-06-20T20:42:27Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-20T20:44:32Z Borbus_: I might write something like python's argparse for lisp, any ideas for nice interfaces? I was thinking of just having a modified let form that binds the args 2014-06-20T20:44:40Z Borbus_ is now known as Borbus 2014-06-20T20:44:58Z drmeiste_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-20T20:46:25Z ChibaPet: Oh, Inops left too soon. I imagine he'd have benefitted from http://www.neilvandyke.org/racket-sicp/ 2014-06-20T20:47:22Z pjb: Borbus: there are already at least 3 libraries to parse arguments in Common Lisp. 2014-06-20T20:47:44Z Borbus: Really? I could only find one and I didn't like it 2014-06-20T20:47:45Z pjb: Perhaps as many as a dozen probably could be found with a little search. 2014-06-20T20:47:59Z Sir_herrbatka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-20T20:48:10Z H4ns: Borbus: there is clon (which is pronounced "clunky") and qitab has something. 2014-06-20T20:48:12Z pjb: Borbus: well, indeed, it's so easy to program in CL, anybody can write his own libraries to his own liking. Go ahead! 2014-06-20T20:48:59Z Borbus: Is there one that makes the usage and help automatically? 2014-06-20T20:49:23Z H4ns: Borbus: clon probably does that. 2014-06-20T20:49:54Z H4ns: Borbus: if you're looking for the features and not for some yak-shaving opportunity, you need to do the research yourself :) 2014-06-20T20:49:58Z 21WAAEVZE quit (Quit: Quitte) 2014-06-20T20:50:18Z Borbus: Oh yes, it does 2014-06-20T20:50:37Z pjb: I have my own in http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=viewblob&p=public/bin&h=93d02d06e15ccf4883eb0ec54f3e62ab3cfe1258&hb=be447288519bf770ada7999bb89efa8afe1c88d7&f=script.lisp 2014-06-20T20:51:01Z Borbus: I just really thought there wasn't an equivalent to argparse so I thought I might as well write it 2014-06-20T20:51:17Z Xach: There are at least 5 or 6 available easily through Quicklisp. 2014-06-20T20:51:32Z H4ns: Borbus: there probably is not something that is "equivalent", but there is a lot of stuff that is good enough for use. 2014-06-20T20:51:36Z ChibaPet: http://mimg.ugo.com/201011/1/5/9/132951/cuts/yak-shaving-day_480x360.jpg 2014-06-20T20:51:37Z pjb: Borbus: http://www.cliki.net/site/search?query=option 2014-06-20T20:53:42Z Borbus: I do need a new project, though, what library shall I write? Someone said before that a wxwidgets interface would be good but I don't really do GUIs 2014-06-20T20:53:58Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-06-20T20:54:15Z H4ns: Borbus: beach probably has something for you to do 2014-06-20T21:00:05Z jasom: Borbus: CLON is easily the most overengineered solution ever; the answer "does CLON do X" where X has anything whatsover to do with parsing command line options, is yes 2014-06-20T21:00:23Z H4ns did not mean to endorse clon 2014-06-20T21:01:07Z ggole quit 2014-06-20T21:02:16Z pjb: Well, actually, my ideal command line argument parsing library would let you to easily parse and obtain parameters from natural language command lines: my-useful-program send an email to boss with an excuse for absence today 2014-06-20T21:02:19Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2014-06-20T21:02:23Z varjag_ joined #lisp 2014-06-20T21:02:45Z pjb: instead of my-somehow-useful-program --send-excuse --boss --absence --today 2014-06-20T21:03:20Z jasom: pjb: I'll get right on that 2014-06-20T21:03:23Z pjb: For now in my script.lisp, I only use simple pattern matching, I'd like a whole NLP parser there. 2014-06-20T21:04:37Z jasom: Coreference resolution, combined with named-entity recognition gets you 90% of the way there 2014-06-20T21:05:13Z pjb: So basically the program would have to provide its ontology to the command parsing library. 2014-06-20T21:05:46Z jasom: right 2014-06-20T21:06:50Z jasom: That's clearly necessary as a minimum, unless your command line parser has more context than just the single command issued 2014-06-20T21:07:24Z dbushenko quit (Quit: Ухожу я от вас (xchat 2.4.5 или старше)) 2014-06-20T21:07:26Z mac_ifie_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-20T21:07:37Z jasom: "my-useful-program send a card to jim" (greeting card? playing card? video card?) 2014-06-20T21:07:51Z pjb: it has to use the context found in the file system too. 2014-06-20T21:08:14Z pjb: and again, that depends also on the ontology of the program. 2014-06-20T21:23:52Z ChibaPet: Anachronistic language should be considered too. I really wanted to send a hammy comediate to Jim. 2014-06-20T21:23:56Z ChibaPet: comedian* 2014-06-20T21:25:45Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-20T21:27:37Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-06-20T21:28:42Z joe-w-bimedina quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2014-06-20T21:29:42Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-20T21:30:04Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-20T21:30:51Z Guest351O2 joined #lisp 2014-06-20T21:32:25Z jasom: cl-langutils in quicklisp helpfully tags everything as NN 2014-06-20T21:32:37Z lukego quit (Quit: lukego) 2014-06-20T21:33:17Z jasom: tagger Seemse to get it right, even tagging excuse as a verb or noun correctly in two examples I made from pjb's example (and one I made that was similar with excuse as a verb) 2014-06-20T21:35:05Z jasom: "Email my boss to excuse my absence" was the other example, and it tagged email and excuse as verbs in that one, which is not bad, all things considered 2014-06-20T21:41:32Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2014-06-20T21:44:10Z lamefun joined #lisp 2014-06-20T21:44:33Z lamefun left #lisp 2014-06-20T21:45:44Z pyx quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-20T21:48:27Z ehu_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-20T21:53:25Z mhi^ quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-20T21:53:27Z nug700 joined #lisp 2014-06-20T21:55:12Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-20T21:58:10Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-20T21:58:31Z rpg joined #lisp 2014-06-20T22:04:08Z Shinmera quit (Quit: Zzzz) 2014-06-20T22:04:39Z aksr quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-20T22:07:40Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-20T22:10:31Z klltkr quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-20T22:12:30Z Oberon4278 quit 2014-06-20T22:19:55Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-20T22:28:24Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-20T22:28:59Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-20T22:30:20Z zickzackv joined #lisp 2014-06-20T22:37:49Z lduros quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-20T22:38:49Z lduros joined #lisp 2014-06-20T22:39:24Z therik quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-20T22:39:51Z drmeiste_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-20T22:40:27Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-20T22:42:56Z boogie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-20T22:43:19Z boogie joined #lisp 2014-06-20T22:43:22Z boogie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-20T22:43:48Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-06-20T22:44:48Z drmeiste_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-20T22:46:19Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-06-20T22:52:40Z aftershave quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-20T22:54:30Z fortitude quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-20T22:56:52Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-20T22:57:49Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-20T22:58:43Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-20T22:59:17Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-20T23:00:10Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-20T23:01:47Z Beetny joined #lisp 2014-06-20T23:02:05Z jchochli_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-20T23:04:24Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-20T23:04:31Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2014-06-20T23:06:51Z Hydan quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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trying to use some gtk calls from CL, not fun so far, lambda-gtk generates a file which then fails to load 2014-06-21T02:11:42Z ahungry: cl-gtk2-gtk after loading gives an error 2014-06-21T02:11:43Z ahungry: Unhandled memory fault at #x18. [Condition of type SB-SYS:MEMORY-FAULT-ERROR] 2014-06-21T02:12:33Z cyraxjoe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-21T02:14:07Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-21T02:14:15Z rwefg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-21T02:15:30Z MightyJoe joined #lisp 2014-06-21T02:15:40Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-21T02:16:34Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-21T02:17:39Z boogie joined #lisp 2014-06-21T02:18:54Z holycow joined #lisp 2014-06-21T02:19:18Z holycow is now known as Guest2193 2014-06-21T02:20:09Z boogie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-21T02:20:13Z rwwra joined #lisp 2014-06-21T02:20:24Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-21T02:23:39Z Guest2193 quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-21T02:27:45Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-21T02:31:18Z chu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-21T02:31:31Z chu joined #lisp 2014-06-21T02:32:19Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-21T02:33:49Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-21T02:36:01Z pjb: ahungry: just say no to FFI. Write Pure Common Lisp libraries! 2014-06-21T02:36:16Z pjb: or compile it with Vaceitis. 2014-06-21T02:37:05Z pjb: Also, just say no to (declaim (optimize (safety 0))) !!! 2014-06-21T02:37:09Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-21T02:37:25Z stassats: can you say no to giving bad advice? 2014-06-21T02:37:41Z pjb: and don't forget to say no to what stassats says.s 2014-06-21T02:39:04Z stassats: i would label suggesting to use vacietis as "trolling", because if it's "joking", then it's not that funny 2014-06-21T02:39:58Z pjb: It's neither trolling or joking. If you want to use a C library, compile it with Vacietis, NOT with gcc!!! 2014-06-21T02:40:14Z pjb: And improve vacietis by the way. 2014-06-21T02:40:41Z stassats: what a load of baloney 2014-06-21T02:40:51Z |3b|: pjb: did you already port linux to vacietis? otherwise gtk won;t be much help 2014-06-21T02:41:13Z pjb: The problem with FFI, is not so much the loss in performance involved by the constant conversion of parameters and results, and the duplication of data structures you have accross it. The real problem with FFI, is that it makes you use code compiled with gcc! 2014-06-21T02:41:37Z jebes: gcc is a pretty vericouis optimizer, isn't it? 2014-06-21T02:41:37Z stassats: |3b|: pure lisp code isn't supposed to run on machines, it's theoritcal, because executing machine instructions is FFI 2014-06-21T02:41:52Z pjb: |3b|: Yes. It was called lispmachine. Let's reinstate it! 2014-06-21T02:42:18Z |3b|: pjb: let me know when you get past the point of convincing GPU vendors to write nice lisp drivers for their hardware for it 2014-06-21T02:42:35Z pjb: It's only a question of time. 2014-06-21T02:42:45Z davazp joined #lisp 2014-06-21T02:43:12Z |3b|: good point, i'll stop participating in wasting it here 2014-06-21T02:43:57Z jebes: what is going on in here 2014-06-21T02:45:04Z Bike: pjb being weird again, don't rubberneck 2014-06-21T02:45:25Z jebes: kay. Good enough for me 2014-06-21T02:52:03Z davazp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-21T02:52:21Z davazp joined #lisp 2014-06-21T02:52:43Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-21T02:55:59Z taraz` joined #lisp 2014-06-21T02:56:05Z pjb: Bike: not being weird again. Just gained some more bad experience with libraries using safety 0 and with FFI. Just say no to both and you'll be much better. 2014-06-21T03:00:00Z taraz quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-21T03:00:02Z jchochli quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-21T03:00:50Z kristof joined #lisp 2014-06-21T03:04:03Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-21T03:04:46Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-06-21T03:08:15Z orthecreedence quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-21T03:09:13Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T03:10:27Z zRecursive left #lisp 2014-06-21T03:12:15Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-21T03:17:34Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-21T03:19:37Z __class__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-21T03:19:49Z YDJX quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-21T03:20:21Z _class_ joined #lisp 2014-06-21T03:21:08Z Beetny joined #lisp 2014-06-21T03:23:37Z _class_ is now known as __class__ 2014-06-21T03:24:40Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2014-06-21T03:25:54Z beach joined #lisp 2014-06-21T03:26:04Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2014-06-21T03:26:34Z clop2 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T03:27:16Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-21T03:27:30Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-21T03:28:05Z beach: From an MIT newsletter, quoted by ACM: "One of Julia's most innovative features is the concept of multiple dispatch, which enables users to define function behavior across combinations of argument types." 2014-06-21T03:29:18Z pjb: If you don't ignore Lisp, about half of the PhD theses and research papers couldn't be published. 2014-06-21T03:29:26Z pjb: (in CS) 2014-06-21T03:29:56Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-21T03:30:03Z beach: That might be a bit severe, but I see your point. 2014-06-21T03:30:40Z stassats: that implies that all research must be completely original 2014-06-21T03:31:14Z beach: stassats: No, but it needs to acknowledge previous work. Sometimes they "forget". 2014-06-21T03:32:12Z pjb: Or they try to solve problems which don't exist when you use lisp. 2014-06-21T03:34:21Z beach: There is a gray zone there, of course. Some people consider it valid research if they can save the world from using parentheses. But they still have to acknowledge that the problem they solve has been solved *with* parentheses. 2014-06-21T03:36:01Z beach: Anyway, I need to write to ACM and let them know I don't appreciate that they cite any old crap without verifying it. 2014-06-21T03:37:29Z stassats: if multiple dispatch is the most notable feature of Julia, then i don't want to know what other features does it have 2014-06-21T03:37:37Z Bike quit (Quit: rebooting, again. stupid technology.) 2014-06-21T03:37:50Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-21T03:38:13Z beach: It might not be the most notable feature, just the one I thought worth quoting. 2014-06-21T03:38:21Z p_l: stassats: it used to claim to be homoiconic 2014-06-21T03:39:47Z p_l: a certain frenchman bothered them till they dropped that claim :> 2014-06-21T03:39:48Z beach: But we all know how this works. Someone comes up with a new language with features that Lisp mostly already has (Python, Ruby, Julia, ...) but the new language gets all the attention. 2014-06-21T03:40:02Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-21T03:40:16Z stassats: let them keep all the unwashed 2014-06-21T03:41:01Z beach: Right. I don't care that much myself, mainly because I have no idea how to fix this problem. 2014-06-21T03:41:03Z kpreid quit (Quit: Offline) 2014-06-21T03:41:40Z kpreid joined #lisp 2014-06-21T03:42:29Z stassats: you'll probably need a sidekick, named Sancho 2014-06-21T03:43:15Z beach: Thanks but no thanks. :) 2014-06-21T03:44:03Z p_l: part of it could be the fact that sometimes they get out of uni with an experience of a lisp course that probably runs well on Maclisp 2014-06-21T03:44:34Z p_l: (and which doesn't even stretch maclisp...) 2014-06-21T03:44:37Z forgottenone joined #lisp 2014-06-21T03:45:10Z kristof: stassats: How are your compiler efforts going? 2014-06-21T03:45:17Z beach: If that were the problem, I would have fixed it a long time ago. 2014-06-21T03:46:00Z stassats: kristof: ah? 2014-06-21T03:47:17Z p_l: beach: the sidekick, or the courses? 2014-06-21T03:47:49Z beach: p_l: If the problem were the bad courses, then ... 2014-06-21T03:49:18Z p_l: I think one would need a Sancho Pansa to deal with the courses. Too many broken things, too little time, too old professors with tenure and personal fiefdoms 2014-06-21T03:50:15Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-21T03:52:23Z kristof: stassats: confused you with drmeister, apologies 2014-06-21T03:54:19Z kristof: Does he still pop in here every so often? 2014-06-21T03:54:27Z stassats: yes 2014-06-21T03:54:37Z stassats: tilting at c++ windmills 2014-06-21T03:56:29Z kristof: I heard people go blind that way 2014-06-21T03:57:30Z nialo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-21T03:59:20Z beach: stassats: You are a bitter man. 2014-06-21T04:03:30Z beach: Oh, I forgot. Thanks to everyone for reviewing my papers. All three got accepted! 2014-06-21T04:03:56Z Bike: what journals, out of curiosity 2014-06-21T04:03:58Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-21T04:04:05Z beach: Bike: ILC Montreal. 2014-06-21T04:04:13Z Bike: ah 2014-06-21T04:04:40Z chu: Congrats. 2014-06-21T04:04:44Z beach: Thanks! 2014-06-21T04:05:11Z beach: One on generic dispatch, one on GC, one on bootstrapping CLOS. 2014-06-21T04:05:18Z kristof: beach: Congratulations! What were your papers on? :) 2014-06-21T04:05:28Z kristof: Oh, answered as soon as I asked 2014-06-21T04:05:29Z beach: kristof: See above :) 2014-06-21T04:06:01Z kristof: beach: are you the one who wrote all the MOP documentation on alu.org? 2014-06-21T04:06:09Z beach: No. 2014-06-21T04:06:41Z beach: kristof: All MOP documentation (that I am aware of) comes from the AMOP chapter 5 and 6. 2014-06-21T04:07:13Z kristof: So AMOP really is the only documentation in existence? I can't seem to find anything else. 2014-06-21T04:07:17Z beach: The existing HTML version was "all rights reserved" contrary to the wish of the AMOP authors. 2014-06-21T04:07:36Z beach: So I make an improved HTML version that respects their wish. 2014-06-21T04:07:41Z beach: On metamodular.com. 2014-06-21T04:07:53Z beach: kristof: That's the one you get if you ask specbot. 2014-06-21T04:08:00Z kristof: Oh, sweet! What's the progress on that? 2014-06-21T04:08:04Z beach: mop class-direct-superclasses 2014-06-21T04:08:05Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-direct-superclasses.html 2014-06-21T04:08:24Z beach: kristof: We can improve it. 2014-06-21T04:08:30Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-21T04:08:58Z beach: kristof: You don't know much about FLOSS do you? :) 2014-06-21T04:12:01Z kristof: Well I remembered you saying that you had been working on it, so I wanted to see what had happened with that. 2014-06-21T04:12:16Z beach: Oh, I see. Sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying. 2014-06-21T04:12:24Z beach: Well, it is almost done. 2014-06-21T04:12:37Z beach: Occasionally, I fix a problem that someone tells me about. 2014-06-21T04:12:52Z beach: kristof: You can consider it done for all practical purposes. 2014-06-21T04:12:59Z kristof: That's good to hear! 2014-06-21T04:14:15Z beach: kristof: Sorry again for the snoddy remark. It sounded like you were questioning the utility of the effort. 2014-06-21T04:15:03Z ahungry: hey guys, got my cl-gtk2-gtk code working well enough to display a label, a button, and a png generated by vecto - I cant find a good reference on how to update the image on the fly though 2014-06-21T04:15:32Z ahungry: I have it set up where i can click the button to re-run the vecto draw which right now just randomizes the shapes, but I want to do it on an interval 2014-06-21T04:15:52Z kristof: Oh not at all, I was sincerely interested! 2014-06-21T04:16:09Z beach: kristof: Yes, I understand that now. 2014-06-21T04:16:21Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-21T04:18:00Z kristof: beach: What concerns me is that I haven't found any material which demonstrates the motivation for such a facility, and then subsequent examples of its use. 2014-06-21T04:18:32Z beach: What facility? 2014-06-21T04:18:36Z kristof: AMOP is really convincing, but there's a lot of value in sources that aren't entire books. 2014-06-21T04:18:40Z kristof: Metaobject protocols 2014-06-21T04:19:10Z Bike: well, bolting qt objects onto lisp's seems kinda nice 2014-06-21T04:19:41Z Bike: amop definitely needs work, though. the book is all like, hey, this is this new weird thing we're trying out! gonna improve it so hard! and then it's not 2014-06-21T04:19:51Z beach: kristof: I think the utility is quite technical, so you won't find examples in your average application that could have been written in Java. 2014-06-21T04:20:48Z beach: Bike: The book definitely needs work. The authors admit it too. 2014-06-21T04:21:04Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-21T04:21:08Z Bike: that's what i mean, it goes on about it being exploratory, not a standard 2014-06-21T04:21:32Z beach: Yeah. Perhaps I need to write another book. :) 2014-06-21T04:24:02Z beach: kristof: Two examples: 1. allowing dispatch on things other than classes. 2. Implementing a per-thread slot updater (I forget what the name of the thing was). 2014-06-21T04:24:31Z kristof: Number 2 is interesting. Is there a library or paper I can read? 2014-06-21T04:24:55Z beach: kristof: It was written by Pascal Costanza. 2014-06-21T04:25:01Z kristof: beach: also, I haved in my list of things to read Pascal Costanza's paper on filtered functions 2014-06-21T04:25:07Z kristof: Oh! What a coincidence. 2014-06-21T04:25:10Z Bike: I tried to write a pattern-matching mop thing once, but i ran into the problem of...i think it was defmethod not working with it, which was kind of a dealbreaker 2014-06-21T04:25:13Z beach: Heh, yea. 2014-06-21T04:26:33Z beach: Bike: There are a lot of limitations like that in the AMOP spec. It would be nice to do some research to see how much is intrinsic and how much is accidental. 2014-06-21T04:27:02Z beach: ... and of course to suggest fixes to the accidental limitations. 2014-06-21T04:27:05Z Bike: it was definitely not intrinsic. i wrote a gf to parse specializers, i think, and an extended defmethod to use them 2014-06-21T04:27:28Z Bike: so (eql foo) would call the regular eql-specializer maker, (pattern stuff) would do my bullshit, that kinda thing 2014-06-21T04:27:51Z beach: I see. 2014-06-21T04:27:54Z Bike: the sbcl people are doing some pattern matching now so i am thankfully irrelevant. 2014-06-21T04:28:25Z beach: I am sure there are tons of such arbitrary and unintentional limitations. 2014-06-21T04:28:28Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-21T04:29:00Z ovidnis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-21T04:29:36Z ovidnis joined #lisp 2014-06-21T04:32:39Z kristof left #lisp 2014-06-21T04:32:50Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-21T04:35:07Z beach: Damn! I can't remember the standard name of the feature that Pascal Costanza made thread safe. It was used to implement WITH-DRAWING-OPTIONS in CLIM II. 2014-06-21T04:35:12Z beach: Can anyone remember? 2014-06-21T04:35:58Z beach: It is a macro that temporarily modifies the value of some slots, evaluates some forms, and then undoes the modifications. 2014-06-21T04:37:07Z beach: Pascal Costanza made it thread-safe by representing slots as special variables. 2014-06-21T04:37:37Z beach: Very clever use of the MOP, I think. 2014-06-21T04:42:09Z jamesf joined #lisp 2014-06-21T04:44:56Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-21T04:49:34Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-21T04:55:23Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T05:05:00Z __class__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-21T05:05:08Z MjrTom`-` joined #lisp 2014-06-21T05:05:08Z MjrTom quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-21T05:05:17Z MjrTom`-` is now known as MjrTom 2014-06-21T05:06:15Z _class_ joined #lisp 2014-06-21T05:08:23Z Rptx` quit (Quit: gonna sleep) 2014-06-21T05:09:06Z _class_ is now known as __class__ 2014-06-21T05:10:33Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-21T05:12:46Z davazp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-21T05:19:31Z beach: Until a few days ago, I had imagined that calling a function required loading some kind of "linkage vector" (containing constants, global functions and such) into a register in addition to loading its static environment. 2014-06-21T05:19:55Z beach: But now I realize, that this "linkage vector" is just part of the static environment, and so it could be represented that way. 2014-06-21T05:20:49Z Bike: i've thought about that a bit. i think you could get nicely externalizable closures like that. 2014-06-21T05:21:15Z beach: Bike: Can you expand on that? 2014-06-21T05:21:33Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-21T05:22:05Z beach: This means that a FASL file could be thought of as implementing this: (defun load-me (copy-string intern fdefinition) (let ((const1 ...) (const2 ...)) ... )) 2014-06-21T05:22:34Z Bike: well, with a bit of introspection, you'd have closures that you could introspect for dependencies (functional and not). 2014-06-21T05:22:38Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T05:22:58Z beach: Bike: I understand a bit. 2014-06-21T05:23:14Z MjrTom`-` joined #lisp 2014-06-21T05:23:14Z MjrTom quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-21T05:23:18Z Bike: then your fasl dump routine could put everything together appropriately for the output format, e.g. decide on static areas in an elf and such. 2014-06-21T05:23:23Z MjrTom`-` is now known as MjrTom 2014-06-21T05:23:24Z Bike: i dislike CL's loading model. 2014-06-21T05:25:47Z beach: For SICL, I am now thinking that loading a FASL should be: 1. mmap it 2. Call it as a function, passing it COPY-STRING, INTERN, and FDEFINITION as arguments. 3. munmap it. 2014-06-21T05:26:46Z Bike: Why only those? 2014-06-21T05:26:50Z beach: It would then create constants, load global functions, etc. Then top-level function definitions will be closures, closing over variables containing those constants, etc. 2014-06-21T05:26:57Z beach: Because that's all that is needed. 2014-06-21T05:27:29Z Bike: fasls can need to execute arbitrary code, though. 2014-06-21T05:27:47Z beach: Yes, that's what they do in what I suggest. 2014-06-21T05:27:56Z MjrTom quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-21T05:27:56Z MjrTom`-` joined #lisp 2014-06-21T05:28:05Z MjrTom`-` is now known as MjrTom 2014-06-21T05:28:05Z beach: "2. Call it as a function, ..." That will execute arbitrary code. 2014-06-21T05:29:06Z beach: Furthermore, the FASL format would not have to be updated so often. 2014-06-21T05:29:46Z Bike: okay, so say i have a trivial fasl, the result of compile-file-ing something with just (eval-when (:load-toplevel) (format t ...)). How's that look with your implementation? 2014-06-21T05:31:02Z Bike: actually, i think i get it anyway, nevermind 2014-06-21T05:31:05Z beach: Number 2 above would use copy-string to copy "COMMON-LISP" and "FORMAT", then call INTERN and FDEFINITION to get the function FORMAT which it will store in a variable. Then, it will call this function. 2014-06-21T05:31:40Z Bike: oh, that's not what i expected. 2014-06-21T05:31:53Z pjb: Doesn't your INTERN copy the string itself? 2014-06-21T05:32:10Z beach: pjb: It could, but I need copy-string anyway for string constants. 2014-06-21T05:32:11Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-21T05:32:28Z Bike: So with something more complicated in eval-when you'd have to compile it down to all function calls? and progn, i guess 2014-06-21T05:32:44Z pjb: ok. 2014-06-21T05:33:28Z beach: Bike: Just the part that creates constants and global functions. The rest will be ordinary code, which can be optimized, etc. 2014-06-21T05:33:34Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-21T05:33:56Z Bike: yeah, by "it" i meant something in eval-when. like, i dunno, an flet in a macrolet or whatever 2014-06-21T05:34:40Z beach: Bike: It is not treated differently from anything else. It will be macro expanded, compiled, optimized, etc. 2014-06-21T05:35:17Z beach: What I decided a few days ago is that I don't need to treat the "linkage vector" specially. It could all be in closed-over variables. The ordinary optimization routines (copy propagation, common subexpression elimination, you name it) will work as usual. 2014-06-21T05:38:32Z beach: Compared to what I had imagined before, this will simplify a lot of things, and avoid duplicated code for essentially the same purpose. 2014-06-21T05:40:44Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-06-21T05:42:21Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T05:43:45Z Bike: well, that's good. 2014-06-21T05:45:44Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2014-06-21T05:51:57Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2014-06-21T05:52:09Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-21T05:55:06Z ggole joined #lisp 2014-06-21T05:55:37Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-21T05:56:33Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-21T05:56:50Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-21T05:57:39Z aksr joined #lisp 2014-06-21T06:03:09Z eigenlicht quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-21T06:07:02Z mmaglis joined #lisp 2014-06-21T06:08:35Z avery joined #lisp 2014-06-21T06:08:37Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-21T06:08:59Z maxpeck joined #lisp 2014-06-21T06:11:33Z beach: pjb: New chapter on checkpointing in http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf 2014-06-21T06:12:00Z beach: pjb: It is basically an improvement (I hope) of the checkpointing system used by EROS. 2014-06-21T06:12:07Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T06:12:08Z ggole quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2014-06-21T06:12:42Z beach: I am still convinced that doing checkpointing is a lot of trouble for something that could be solved by a battery. 2014-06-21T06:12:47Z ggole joined #lisp 2014-06-21T06:14:23Z Bike: Checkpointing means keeping application state snapshots to restore from if there's an outage? 2014-06-21T06:14:29Z beach: Yeah. 2014-06-21T06:15:04Z beach: minion: memo for hitecnologys: For news on LispOS, see chapter 7 of: http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf 2014-06-21T06:15:04Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell hitecnologys when he/she/it next speaks. 2014-06-21T06:15:30Z Bike: in the last couple days i've been dealing with an X bug that causes all my X-using programs to fail simultaneously when i run a particular one, i'm sympathetic to wanting to maintain state for many reasons 2014-06-21T06:15:33Z beach: Bike: The problem with checkpointing is that the literature is silent on the problem that it solves. 2014-06-21T06:15:39Z Bike: throw a connective in there somewhere 2014-06-21T06:16:44Z beach: Bike: Clearly, checkpointing can solve the problem of sudden loss of power, but a battery does that even better. 2014-06-21T06:17:20Z beach: Bike: And I am unconvinced that checkpointing solves the problem of buggy software, because the state that was saved could very well already be the wrong one then. 2014-06-21T06:17:31Z Bike: i can also understand not imposing restrictions on the hardware like that... 2014-06-21T06:17:35Z qiemem joined #lisp 2014-06-21T06:17:53Z zacts- joined #lisp 2014-06-21T06:17:59Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-21T06:18:02Z beach: Sure, but it's a lot of work for very little. 2014-06-21T06:19:16Z beach: Speaking of which, I was thinking the other day that it might be advantageous to collect previous-generation (relatively) slow RAM chips, stick them as a massive cache in a disk storage unit, together with a battery to save to disk if power is lost. 2014-06-21T06:19:23Z Bike: anyway the X thing was just an example. in my particular case the programs fail in a controlled way due to the sudden death of the X server so they could just checkpoint them, or something 2014-06-21T06:19:41Z Bike: i'd half-expect an SSD to be faster than old RAM 2014-06-21T06:19:49Z beach: Bike: Sure, but it would be hard to find a general solution to that problem. 2014-06-21T06:20:14Z beach: Bike: My point is that old RAM can be had for free, and it is still WAY faster than the disk. 2014-06-21T06:20:41Z beach: ... so the cost of such a unit would be fairly modest, compared to if it were stuffed with modern fast RAM. 2014-06-21T06:21:33Z beach: I mean, I probably have 15GiB in an old computer that has a broken mother board. I was told it is useless because no new motherboards use that kind of RAM. 2014-06-21T06:21:38Z beach: *16 2014-06-21T06:25:40Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-21T06:27:14Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T06:28:35Z mmaglis left #lisp 2014-06-21T06:28:36Z pjb: don't worry, HP is preparing The Machine for in a couple of years… 2014-06-21T06:28:52Z pjb: with persitent memory. 2014-06-21T06:29:04Z beach: MRAM? 2014-06-21T06:29:32Z pjb: Yes. 2014-06-21T06:29:56Z beach: I thought so too, 10 years ago. Still not a lot of progress as far as I can tell. 2014-06-21T06:30:03Z killmaster quit (Quit: Bye!) 2014-06-21T06:30:18Z Zhivago: The problem with persistence is that you don't want to rely on it, in any case. 2014-06-21T06:30:37Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-21T06:30:53Z Zhivago: So it doesn't really solve any fundamental problems -- at worst it just causes some fundamental problems to be overlooked. 2014-06-21T06:31:38Z Zhivago: (like support for reconstruction) 2014-06-21T06:33:37Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-21T06:34:55Z pjb: Yes, rebooting from a stable state. Basically, with persistent memory, you still need to make copies, to work with copies, and "save" it only when everything went well, to avoid corrupting your data when you have bugs with in your programs. 2014-06-21T06:35:10Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T06:36:09Z pjb: Persistency doesn't remove that, it only makes it easier: (setf *my-sources* (edit (copy-string *my-sources*))) ; if EDIT exits non-locally, we don't save the corrupted data. 2014-06-21T06:36:43Z Zhivago: You also need to be able to reconstruct a state equivalent to the current, from scratch. 2014-06-21T06:37:15Z Zhivago: So, essentially all that persistence does is make rebooting faster. 2014-06-21T06:37:31Z Zhivago: And easier to paint yourself into a corner that you can't reconstruct to. 2014-06-21T06:37:55Z pjb: Well, this is the question of installing the system (or an application). 2014-06-21T06:39:22Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-21T06:39:33Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-21T06:41:07Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T06:50:41Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-21T06:56:11Z blakbunnie27 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-21T06:57:28Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-21T06:58:03Z beach: pjb: Do you have any reason to believe that MRAM technology has made a quantum leap recently? 2014-06-21T06:59:07Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-06-21T06:59:40Z beach: Oh dear: http://www.mram-info.com/ : "rather then" 2014-06-21T07:00:12Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T07:03:36Z beach: Bike: [sorry, reacting late] don't SSDs still have a problem with limited number of writes? 2014-06-21T07:04:38Z Zhivago: Well, so do spinning discs. 2014-06-21T07:05:12Z beach: Of course. But as I recall, for SSD the limit is way much lower. 2014-06-21T07:05:34Z Shinmera: I only remember that flash memory has issues with being read/written to in rapid succession (in the case of using it as RAM f.e.) 2014-06-21T07:05:40Z pjb: beach: HP Labs sure seem to have a plan. There's a road map. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcmsby8jDKE 2014-06-21T07:06:26Z beach: pjb: Thanks! 2014-06-21T07:13:13Z beach: Memristor rather than MRAM. 2014-06-21T07:13:36Z jewel joined #lisp 2014-06-21T07:16:29Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-21T07:22:07Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-06-21T07:27:18Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-21T07:30:12Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-21T07:31:03Z MjrTom quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-21T07:32:11Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T07:34:36Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-21T07:36:00Z __JokerDoom quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-21T07:40:26Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-21T07:43:33Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-21T07:44:33Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-21T07:49:03Z therik joined #lisp 2014-06-21T07:50:54Z avery quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-21T07:51:06Z orthecreedence joined #lisp 2014-06-21T07:51:16Z avery joined #lisp 2014-06-21T07:53:11Z robot-beethoven 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into that category 2014-06-21T11:40:31Z hitecnologys: MAKE-NAME-WINDOW is supposed to return new window object. If that's what you want, then it surely qualifies as "constructor". 2014-06-21T11:40:31Z minion: hitecnologys, memo from beach: For news on LispOS, see chapter 7 of: http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf 2014-06-21T11:40:55Z dlowe: The "constructor" term generally means constructing a valid object in memory, not necessarily constructing a user-visible thing 2014-06-21T11:41:22Z hitecnologys: minion: tell beach: woah, thanks. I'll take a look at that. 2014-06-21T11:41:22Z minion: beach: that: please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 2014-06-21T11:41:37Z beach: hitecnologys: It's OK. I saw it :) 2014-06-21T11:41:44Z hitecnologys: Ah, OK then. 2014-06-21T11:41:46Z joe-w-bimedina: the named window function does not allocate any memory to hold it that must be freed...does it still qualify 2014-06-21T11:42:01Z beach: hitecnologys: I just saw in the logs that you were looking for news. 2014-06-21T11:43:33Z hitecnologys: beach: yeah, sort of. There was nothing in c.l.l, nothing in mailing list, so I thought the project was stopped or maybe even abandoned. 2014-06-21T11:43:46Z joe-w-bimedina: hitecnologys: ^ 2014-06-21T11:44:21Z beach: hitecnologys: What I am doing is not abandoned, but it will take some time. We need a Lisp implementation with first-class global environments, and SICL is designed to do that, so I am doing SICL first. 2014-06-21T11:44:38Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: I'm not sure I'm following what your make-named-window does. 2014-06-21T11:45:18Z hitecnologys: beach: I see. I remember you once talking about first-class environments there. 2014-06-21T11:45:26Z beach: Indeed, yes. 2014-06-21T11:45:41Z joe-w-bimedina: hitecnologys: just creates a window that video or a camera feed can be shown in...it must be destroyed to get rid of it but it does not use ram 2014-06-21T11:46:00Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-21T11:46:32Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-21T11:46:47Z hitecnologys: joe-w-bimedina: how's that possible? It's created somehow but it's not written to RAM? 2014-06-21T11:48:40Z joe-w-bimedina: I meant memory doesn't have to be allocated for it with a new operator in the C function that wraps the c++ function that is its initial state 2014-06-21T11:48:50Z joe-w-bimedina: "use" ram 2014-06-21T11:49:06Z joe-w-bimedina: need to be freed with delete or free 2014-06-21T11:49:10Z hitecnologys: So, it creates reference to window but does not allocate memory? 2014-06-21T11:49:48Z mishoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-21T11:49:49Z joe-w-bimedina: it makes the window actually appear but i did not have to write a delete function to free its memory 2014-06-21T11:50:06Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-21T11:51:20Z hitecnologys: If it draws window, then, in my opinion, it does not qualify as MAKE-* function. It should rather be DRAW-WINDOW and accept window instance made with MAKE-NAMED-WINDOW as an argument. 2014-06-21T11:53:16Z joe-w-bimedina: here is its documentation, named-window just creates a window that shows on screen and must be destroyed with destroy-wind after to make it go away http://docs.opencv.org/trunk/modules/highgui/doc/user_interface.html?highlight=namedwind#namedwindow 2014-06-21T11:53:57Z joe-w-bimedina: there is no companion function like draw window, it is all inclusive save for the destroy function 2014-06-21T11:54:08Z hitecnologys: You shouldn't write in Lisp using C style. Functions with side effects should be isolated from the rest of the code. 2014-06-21T11:54:41Z joe-w-bimedina: not sure I understand...is creating a window a side effect 2014-06-21T11:55:34Z hitecnologys: I consider showing a window on screen as side effect. 2014-06-21T11:55:59Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-21T11:56:01Z hitecnologys: You a free not to agree with me. Everybody has their own truth. 2014-06-21T11:56:34Z gigetoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-21T11:56:41Z joe-w-bimedina: isolated how then, I'm mainly just curious about the name, like what would you rename the function to at the link 2014-06-21T11:57:08Z hitecnologys: I'd probably call it MAKE-AND-DRAW-NAMED-WINDOW then. 2014-06-21T11:58:02Z joe-w-bimedina: ok thank you very much for taking the time to help me with that:) 2014-06-21T11:58:14Z hitecnologys: If you want to stick to your current architecture, of course. Nevertheless, I strongly advise you to adjust it if you want something lisp-ish, not C-ish 2014-06-21T11:58:14Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2014-06-21T11:59:31Z hitecnologys: Well, if you're just making plain bindings and nothing more, then it's a different story. 2014-06-21T12:00:13Z niaknor joined #lisp 2014-06-21T12:00:54Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T12:02:13Z joe-w-bimedina: well i added with-macros and changed the constructors to use the make-* syntax so far, I convert all c++ vectors to lisp lists and vectors for speed going to do the same with matrices. I'm going to try to convert everything from C++ to lisp that I can to get as much speed as i can and make it that much better, it won't be a opencv wrapper but a valid Lisp Computer vision solution 2014-06-21T12:03:25Z hitecnologys: Then you'd better stick to Lisp way of doing things. 2014-06-21T12:03:31Z eni quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-21T12:04:00Z therik quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-21T12:05:24Z lduros joined #lisp 2014-06-21T12:07:04Z dkordic quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2014-06-21T12:07:05Z joe-w-bimedina: I do appreciate all the advice that helps with that, ideally the Opencv binding will just be to pass info back and forth, because so far, compiled to exe my library is about 6 times slower on avg then OpenCV except when using vectors and soon matrices, i'll be adding cuda soon 2014-06-21T12:07:31Z araujo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-21T12:08:31Z xyjprc joined #lisp 2014-06-21T12:09:02Z araujo joined #lisp 2014-06-21T12:09:14Z niaknor quit 2014-06-21T12:10:44Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-21T12:12:27Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-21T12:12:33Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-21T12:12:38Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T12:15:01Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-21T12:20:25Z zwer_x joined #lisp 2014-06-21T12:20:35Z nipra quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-21T12:22:27Z zwer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-21T12:35:18Z joe-w-bimedina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-21T12:36:49Z forgottenone quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-21T12:43:38Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-21T12:43:57Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-21T12:45:27Z bjorkintosh quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-21T12:48:14Z jusss quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-21T12:48:26Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-21T12:49:11Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-21T12:49:33Z doomlord_1 is now known as doomlord__1 2014-06-21T12:53:41Z doomlord__1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-21T12:53:57Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T12:55:04Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-21T12:56:32Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-21T12:57:37Z doomlor__ joined #lisp 2014-06-21T12:57:45Z doomlord_1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-21T12:58:41Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-21T13:04:07Z oleo: if i have a string "(" how can i get it's content ? 2014-06-21T13:04:15Z oleo: read-from-string fails there.... 2014-06-21T13:04:30Z H4ns: oleo: what do you mean by "get"? 2014-06-21T13:04:45Z oleo: do i have to convert that ? 2014-06-21T13:04:48Z H4ns: oleo: "(" is not a string that you can READ, it is an incomplete expression. 2014-06-21T13:04:57Z oleo: yes that's what i mean.... 2014-06-21T13:05:06Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-06-21T13:05:13Z H4ns: oleo: you can't READ "(" because it is not complete. 2014-06-21T13:05:16Z beach: oleo: (char "(" 0)) 2014-06-21T13:07:14Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T13:07:31Z forgottenone joined #lisp 2014-06-21T13:07:34Z doomlor__ is now known as doomlord__1 2014-06-21T13:07:43Z doomlord__1 is now known as doomlor__ 2014-06-21T13:08:06Z oleo: oh man 2014-06-21T13:10:05Z jchochli quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-21T13:10:10Z beach: what? 2014-06-21T13:11:39Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T13:11:52Z oleo: thank you, i'm always confused about character level and string level.... 2014-06-21T13:14:17Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2014-06-21T13:14:23Z oleo__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-21T13:14:46Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2014-06-21T13:14:46Z oleo is now known as Guest63591 2014-06-21T13:14:49Z oleo__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-21T13:15:20Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-21T13:16:27Z Ralt quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-21T13:16:30Z Guest63591 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-21T13:16:37Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T13:16:46Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-06-21T13:17:09Z doomlor__ is now known as doomlord__1 2014-06-21T13:17:24Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-21T13:18:30Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-06-21T13:21:27Z doomlord__1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-21T13:22:05Z chu joined #lisp 2014-06-21T13:22:30Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T13:26:24Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-21T13:27:11Z forgottenone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-21T13:27:33Z forgottenone joined #lisp 2014-06-21T13:28:56Z doomlord_1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-21T13:29:03Z doomlor__ joined #lisp 2014-06-21T13:31:21Z n0n0 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-21T13:33:13Z Joreji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-21T13:33:22Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-21T13:33:26Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-21T13:37:07Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T13:41:55Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-21T13:44:49Z Joreji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-21T13:44:57Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-21T13:45:35Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-21T13:48:01Z cpc26 left #lisp 2014-06-21T13:48:03Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T13:51:41Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-06-21T13:53:36Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-06-21T13:56:04Z taraz` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-21T13:56:45Z Joreji_ joined #lisp 2014-06-21T13:59:01Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-21T14:02:19Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-21T14:04:38Z mikaelj_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-21T14:09:09Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-21T14:09:37Z clj-learner joined #lisp 2014-06-21T14:10:47Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-21T14:11:33Z Alfr joined #lisp 2014-06-21T14:11:33Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-21T14:12:22Z Joreji_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-21T14:12:35Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T14:16:21Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-21T14:17:30Z joe-w-bimedina joined #lisp 2014-06-21T14:17:35Z joe-w-bimedina: just curious, I timed how long it takes to run a OpenCV C++ function and the same function wrapped in C a million times and they are almost identical. But when I wrap the same function in a defcun and compile to an executable it is about 6 times slower, why is this 2014-06-21T14:19:11Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-21T14:19:49Z theos: which compiler? 2014-06-21T14:20:04Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-21T14:20:16Z joe-w-bimedina: SBCL 2014-06-21T14:20:32Z joe-w-bimedina: g++ for C++/C 2014-06-21T14:21:09Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-21T14:22:01Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-21T14:24:07Z joe-w-bimedina: theos: not sure if you saw ^ 2014-06-21T14:24:24Z theos: did you try optimizing? 2014-06-21T14:24:51Z joe-w-bimedina: How would i optimize a bare defcfun 2014-06-21T14:25:02Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-21T14:25:41Z ta34 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T14:25:53Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2014-06-21T14:26:33Z ta34 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-21T14:26:59Z ta34 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T14:27:07Z Trenif joined #lisp 2014-06-21T14:27:26Z test1600 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T14:27:26Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-21T14:27:31Z ta34 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-21T14:28:29Z theos: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/d_optimi.htm 2014-06-21T14:28:31Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-21T14:29:31Z Lefeni quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-21T14:30:23Z mikaelj joined #lisp 2014-06-21T14:32:23Z joe-w-bimedina: theos: could you show me how I would use optimize on this defcfun...i've seen that link before but don't really understand it https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/e17397b5aa34766fe54e 2014-06-21T14:32:28Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T14:32:36Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T14:34:27Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-21T14:35:37Z mikaelj quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-21T14:39:39Z joe-w-bimedina: Not sure I really understand how to use optimize on a defcfun, could someone show me real quick on the defcfun at this link https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/e17397b5aa34766fe54e 2014-06-21T14:40:00Z stassats: you already asked that 2014-06-21T14:41:09Z joe-w-bimedina: Maybe ...i didn't get an answer though...id really like to speed the defcfuns as they are like 6 x slower compiled 2014-06-21T14:42:07Z axion: macroexpand 2014-06-21T14:42:20Z joe-w-bimedina: a defcfun 2014-06-21T14:42:22Z joe-w-bimedina: ? 2014-06-21T14:42:53Z axion: do you think it's a function? 2014-06-21T14:43:31Z zygentoma quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-21T14:44:37Z joe-w-bimedina: i just assumed as to the name, the defcfun at the link is so basic, it can't be changed in any way, so looking at macroexpand would do anything right, unless i guess i used that info to rewrite the defcfun. Is that what your suggesting? 2014-06-21T14:45:08Z stassats: just inline the bloody function 2014-06-21T14:45:36Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2014-06-21T14:45:48Z joe-w-bimedina: don't know what that means, sorry this is a new area for me 2014-06-21T14:45:59Z axion: it appears git is too: https://github.com/W-Net-AI/LISP-CV/commits/master 2014-06-21T14:46:21Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-21T14:46:44Z stassats: "Updated files...see notes------------------------------------------->" is a terrible commit message 2014-06-21T14:49:55Z joe-w-bimedina: the notes are on the link, i like to add all at the same time so i always upload the full working build, if i don't do them like that it looks messed up,,,saves time...you'd have to think of it as an overview of what I did that time..not perfect but the code is what I care about 2014-06-21T14:50:05Z axion: never a god idea 2014-06-21T14:50:07Z axion: good 2014-06-21T14:50:27Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-21T14:50:54Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm the only one working on it for now, if other people get involved I'll do it better 2014-06-21T14:51:11Z axion: you sure give others an incentive to get involved 2014-06-21T14:51:26Z stassats: "updated files" thing is horrible no matter how many people are working 2014-06-21T14:51:52Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-06-21T14:51:58Z dkcl quit (Changing host) 2014-06-21T14:51:58Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-06-21T14:52:13Z maxpeck quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-21T14:52:15Z axion: also a mass of changes per commit is not ideal, even for 1 developer. consider working in a devel branch or tagging 2014-06-21T14:53:19Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-06-21T14:53:31Z joe-w-bimedina: I love it so it wouldn't kill me if no one helped...but If someone is ready to help I'll set it up so information is passed cleanly. Yea I got the drive to code the other stuff I'll pay my tutor to optimize...I saved your suggestions so if its easy I 2014-06-21T14:53:45Z joe-w-bimedina: will put it into effect 2014-06-21T14:55:46Z joe-w-bimedina: axion can you get your defcfun's to run close to c++ speed ever 2014-06-21T14:56:17Z stassats: you aren't ready for optimizing things 2014-06-21T14:56:54Z axion: if you're just copying stuff, it's not going to be O(1) 2014-06-21T14:57:44Z joe-w-bimedina: if someone gives me an example i will be...can you throw me one? then I can play with it.... 2014-06-21T14:57:45Z jchochli quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-21T14:59:10Z hitecnologys: Bloody hell. 2014-06-21T14:59:18Z hitecnologys: Updated... 2014-06-21T15:00:30Z joe-w-bimedina: the link is the same, dio you update this link https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/e17397b5aa34766fe54e 2014-06-21T15:00:32Z joe-w-bimedina: did 2014-06-21T15:00:56Z |3b|: joe-w-bimedina: did you show how you are testing (in both c and lisp), and how you define any types that defcfun is using? 2014-06-21T15:01:19Z joe-w-bimedina: good point...one sec 2014-06-21T15:02:39Z joe-w-bimedina: ok updated 2014-06-21T15:02:49Z dboswell` joined #lisp 2014-06-21T15:03:31Z djinni` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-21T15:03:39Z zwer_x_u joined #lisp 2014-06-21T15:03:51Z zwer_x quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-21T15:03:57Z justinmcp quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2014-06-21T15:04:29Z dan64 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-21T15:05:49Z justinmcp joined #lisp 2014-06-21T15:06:29Z |3b|: yeah, doesn't seem to unreasonable for that to be slower 2014-06-21T15:06:48Z |3b|: doesn't seem like something you would want to call enough for it to matter though 2014-06-21T15:06:52Z dboswell quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-21T15:07:11Z joe-w-bimedina: in OpenCV you use MAT all the time 2014-06-21T15:07:47Z |3b|: use != create 2014-06-21T15:07:56Z |3b|: and most uses probably take time to execute 2014-06-21T15:08:25Z |3b|: so unless you are creating thousands of matrices for every function that does actual work, doesn't seem like it would matter much 2014-06-21T15:08:48Z joe-w-bimedina: it takes like .250 seconds per million for the defcfun i posted as is....what is != create 2014-06-21T15:08:54Z zwer_x_u quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-21T15:09:05Z |3b|: "not equal" 2014-06-21T15:09:08Z zwer_x_u joined #lisp 2014-06-21T15:09:31Z joe-w-bimedina: i know that ...didnt understand your suggestion 2014-06-21T15:09:59Z |3b|: i'm saying your statement "you use MAT all the time" doesn't mean you create MAT all the time 2014-06-21T15:10:22Z |3b|: so testing speed of creating them doesn't help tell whether using them will be fast or not 2014-06-21T15:10:43Z |3b|: and presumably use i the part that needs to be fast 2014-06-21T15:10:49Z |3b|: *use is the part 2014-06-21T15:11:46Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T15:11:54Z joe-w-bimedina: is there an all encompassing way to speed up any defcfun 2014-06-21T15:11:55Z |3b|: not sure i'd expect to use cv_create_Mat much at all from lisp. I'd expect to just create lisp arrays (probably of specific type/size) and convert them when calling cv functions 2014-06-21T15:12:08Z dan64 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T15:12:10Z stassats: there is, just inline it 2014-06-21T15:12:25Z |3b|: if function call overhead is most of the time spent in a foreign call, it is probably simple enough to rewrite in lisp 2014-06-21T15:13:17Z joe-w-bimedina: thats what I plan ,to do my matrix ops in Lisp, I would need example of inlining a defcfun 2014-06-21T15:13:43Z |3b|: inline it exactly the same as any other function, (declaim (inline ...)) 2014-06-21T15:14:03Z |3b|: actually, now that i think about it, wasn't there a faster alternative to TRANSLATE-FROM-FOREIGN that works at macroexpansion time or something? 2014-06-21T15:14:04Z forgottenone quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-21T15:14:24Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-21T15:14:32Z joe-w-bimedina: can I get a concrete example, 2014-06-21T15:15:27Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-21T15:15:50Z |3b|: looks like EXPAND-TO-FOREIGN is what i was thinking of, see http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Optimizing-Type-Translators.html 2014-06-21T15:16:42Z joe-w-bimedina: so i basically call my mat like this (declaim (inline %mat)) 2014-06-21T15:16:48Z |3b|: an example of declaim inline? (declaim (inline foo)) (defcfun foo :void) 2014-06-21T15:17:01Z |3b|: yeah, put that before the definition of %mat 2014-06-21T15:17:32Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec , 2014-06-21T15:17:34Z |3b| suspects avoiding the generic function dispatch in the foreign type translation would help more though 2014-06-21T15:17:44Z axion: agreed 2014-06-21T15:18:43Z djinni` joined #lisp 2014-06-21T15:19:02Z joe-w-bimedina: not sure i understand the jargon, I don't see a generic function in waht i provided 2014-06-21T15:19:16Z axion: joe-w-bimedina: http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Optimizing-Type-Translators.html 2014-06-21T15:19:18Z stassats: why are you optimizing it? 2014-06-21T15:19:42Z joe-w-bimedina: I would love to have C++ speed or close 2014-06-21T15:20:37Z stassats: so, that's the only problem your project has? 2014-06-21T15:20:37Z |3b|: "close" in actual use or in pointless microbenchmarks? 2014-06-21T15:20:57Z Zhivago: You can have that kind of speed, but generally it requires writing code like C++. 2014-06-21T15:21:16Z Zhivago: It largely comes down to the degrees of indeterminance at run-time. 2014-06-21T15:21:20Z |3b|: or writing to take advantage of the strength of lisp 2014-06-21T15:21:43Z stassats: either requires understanding of what's going on in the first place 2014-06-21T15:21:47Z joe-w-bimedina: time is important because the function must complete in .030 seconds or the video is slow 2014-06-21T15:21:48Z |3b|: right 2014-06-21T15:22:07Z joe-w-bimedina: i am going to convert to lisp arrays 2014-06-21T15:22:08Z stassats: so, is the video slow? 2014-06-21T15:23:30Z joe-w-bimedina: it is when i use certain functions that are already heave in c++ , i would like to make every speed increase I can no matter how inconsequential it seems, they will add up 2014-06-21T15:24:36Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-21T15:24:45Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-21T15:25:39Z joe-w-bimedina: can you check my work for declaring inline => updated gist https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/e17397b5aa34766fe54e I did get no speed increase the way I posted 2014-06-21T15:26:31Z |3b|: why do you declaim it notinline? 2014-06-21T15:27:12Z joe-w-bimedina: going by the link..I thought that way the practice to revert back to default after the inline call 2014-06-21T15:28:08Z |3b|: which link? 2014-06-21T15:28:23Z KCL_ joined #lisp 2014-06-21T15:28:53Z joe-w-bimedina: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/d_inline.htm 2014-06-21T15:29:20Z |3b|: the one that says "To define a function f that is not inline by default but for which (declare (inline f)) will make f be locally inlined, the proper definition sequence is: " ? 2014-06-21T15:29:51Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-21T15:30:02Z rwwra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-21T15:30:14Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-21T15:30:45Z |3b| assumes you want it inline by default, so you probably don't want the notinline part 2014-06-21T15:31:42Z joe-w-bimedina: yea, still new to this...declaring with just the (declaim (inline %mat)) above the defcfun brought no noticnble speed increase, the type i have is a little heavy though 2014-06-21T15:32:05Z |3b|: have you profiled to see what is taking up time in your test? 2014-06-21T15:32:13Z Guest351O2 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T15:32:16Z |3b|: have you showed us the code for your tests? 2014-06-21T15:32:32Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec 2014-06-21T15:33:23Z joe-w-bimedina: I use my time macro for the tests : (defmacro $ (form &optional (count-form 1000000)) `(time (dotimes (_ ,count-form) ((lambda () ,form))))) 2014-06-21T15:33:44Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2014-06-21T15:33:58Z joe-w-bimedina: the times are .312 to .340 per million for bothe the inline and the regular 2014-06-21T15:34:20Z joe-w-bimedina: bothe => both 2014-06-21T15:34:37Z klltkr quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-21T15:35:02Z |3b|: why do you use ((lambda ...))? 2014-06-21T15:35:27Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-06-21T15:35:38Z joe-w-bimedina: so I can call ($ (%mat)) to time my function 2014-06-21T15:35:57Z |3b|: which would work exactly as well without the lambda? 2014-06-21T15:36:19Z joe-w-bimedina: I could make that work for some reason 2014-06-21T15:36:26Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-21T15:36:36Z |3b|: (dotimes (...) ,form) 2014-06-21T15:37:31Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-21T15:37:48Z joe-w-bimedina: trying it 2014-06-21T15:38:06Z |3b|: probably won't affect speed, but at least is more readable 2014-06-21T15:39:28Z joe-w-bimedina: if you can show me how to make it work without the lambda I would be shocked 2014-06-21T15:40:34Z joe-w-bimedina: that was the key that did make it work 2014-06-21T15:40:37Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-21T15:42:08Z |3b| thinks you would get better use of time from learning lisp rather than trying to microoptimize code you don't understand 2014-06-21T15:43:25Z Jubb joined #lisp 2014-06-21T15:43:26Z |3b| did show you how to make it work without the lambda, ~5 min ago 2014-06-21T15:43:41Z |3b|: and it should have been the first thing you tried anyway 2014-06-21T15:44:05Z axion notices a parenthesis kind of looks like a spoon 2014-06-21T15:44:21Z |3b|: and for that matter, progn should have been the second, not ((lambda ...)) 2014-06-21T15:45:03Z joe-w-bimedina: strassats said inline would speed it up and I did find no increase, just looking for a working method, what you posted on the time function didn't work as macro I just like something I can call easy like ($ ...) 2014-06-21T15:45:12Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-21T15:45:56Z |3b| posted a piece of code intended to replace the corresponding piece of code in your macro 2014-06-21T15:46:11Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-21T15:47:00Z karswell joined #lisp 2014-06-21T15:47:23Z |3b|: stassats said inlining is the generic way to speed up a defcfun, not that it would help your test 2014-06-21T15:48:15Z joe-w-bimedina: is this what you meant (defmacro $ (form &optional (count-form 1000000)) `(time (dotimes (_ ,count-form) (,form))))....ok I was looking for a way, if possible to get closeer to c++ speeds 2014-06-21T15:48:40Z |3b|: no, there were no () around ,form in my code 2014-06-21T15:49:18Z Zhivago: joe: Look at the decisions that your code is making -- reduce them, 2014-06-21T15:49:46Z joe-w-bimedina: man your good, I couldn't figure that out without lamba...great job! 2014-06-21T15:49:53Z joe-w-bimedina: lambda 2014-06-21T15:50:28Z |3b|: that isn't "good", that is the most basic use of ` and , in a macro 2014-06-21T15:50:55Z joe-w-bimedina: |3b| how much slower than c do your defcfuns end up being 2014-06-21T15:51:11Z |3b|: my defcfun are "fast enough", so no idea 2014-06-21T15:53:04Z joe-w-bimedina: ok, if there is no "do this and your defcfun will be 5x faster" answer I'll mess with that provided CFFI link...thanks for the insight 2014-06-21T15:53:38Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-21T15:53:44Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-06-21T15:54:15Z |3b|: does "don't make your defcfun 5x slower" count? if so, see that link. otherwise, see that link 2014-06-21T15:54:26Z |3b|: did you profile your test? 2014-06-21T15:55:45Z joe-w-bimedina: I just my time macro...if profiling is reccommended, I'll schedule a session with my tutor on it, don't wanna take up too much of your time 2014-06-21T15:56:35Z |3b|: optimizing without profiling is one of the best ways to waste time when programming 2014-06-21T15:56:55Z |3b|: if you don't know what is slow, you are probably optimizing the wrong thing 2014-06-21T15:59:05Z joe-w-bimedina: i have just been trying to make everything run fast as in time spent, that has been my bottom line, 2014-06-21T15:59:55Z Zhivago: Well, like I said ... 2014-06-21T16:00:19Z |3b|: so you don't care if you start with the things taking the most time or not? 2014-06-21T16:00:31Z eni joined #lisp 2014-06-21T16:00:39Z |3b| assumes you don't have infinite time, so presumably you would want to use it efficiently 2014-06-21T16:01:45Z Zhivago: Well, he is a student, after all. 2014-06-21T16:02:34Z joe-w-bimedina: i thought i would try to run everything as fast as c++, that would be cool. you would be shocked at how many time sI have got good answers to impossible seeming questions, so I keep asking them 2014-06-21T16:03:01Z Zhivago: joe: It's actually very simple. 2014-06-21T16:03:22Z Zhivago: Go and see what run-time decisions your code is making, and eliminate as many as possible. 2014-06-21T16:03:40Z Zhivago: Looking at the virtual assembly of your code may be useful, or it might confuse you. 2014-06-21T16:04:01Z Zhivago: Efficiently directing your efforts requires knowing where the payoffs are, so use a profiler. 2014-06-21T16:05:33Z Zhivago: Alternately, you can take the evolutionary approach of randomly changing things. 2014-06-21T16:05:36Z Zhivago: Good luck. :) 2014-06-21T16:06:21Z |3b|: is that cv_create_Mat function part of opencv? 2014-06-21T16:06:24Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-21T16:07:05Z joe-w-bimedina: ok ill start using a profiler and maybe use foreign-funcall to cut down on time....no it is my C wrapper for it, it is a c++ function 2014-06-21T16:07:21Z |3b|: why use foreign-funcall to cut down on time? 2014-06-21T16:08:06Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T16:08:13Z |3b|: or rather, why do you think it would cut down on time? 2014-06-21T16:08:20Z joe-w-bimedina: as Zhivago said , cut down any unnecessary actions, defcfun calls it 2014-06-21T16:08:37Z Bike: i don't think you're really understanding what zhivago said 2014-06-21T16:08:42Z Zhivago: Actually, I said _decisions_. 2014-06-21T16:08:58Z |3b| doesn't see how "do what it already does" is supposed to make things faster 2014-06-21T16:08:59Z Zhivago: Let's say that your code contains (+ a b) 2014-06-21T16:09:04Z joe-w-bimedina: i took progn as a decision 2014-06-21T16:09:08Z Zhivago: What decisions does that code need to make? 2014-06-21T16:09:14Z Zhivago: Well, you might want to get a dictionary. 2014-06-21T16:09:20Z Bike: just profile your code for god's sake, i don't know why you would resist this. it's obvious! if one thing takes a millisecond and one thing takes two seconds you want to fix the latter 2014-06-21T16:09:35Z clop2 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T16:09:40Z Zhivago: He's a student. High on hotpockets and light on brains. 2014-06-21T16:09:53Z Bike: i'm also a student :( 2014-06-21T16:10:17Z joe-w-bimedina: +, a and b.....oh, I am going to profile 2014-06-21T16:10:43Z Bike: if you don't even know what's taking up your time your attempts to speed things up will probably be useless. you spend an hour switching defcfuns to foreign-funcalls, and in the end you save seven cycles and your code is harder to read 2014-06-21T16:10:53Z joe-w-bimedina: Bike: I was asking how to do it, I know that:) 2014-06-21T16:10:55Z Zhivago: joe: Is a a string? Is it an integer? Is it a fixnum? Is it a ... ? 2014-06-21T16:10:55Z |3b|: and less portable 2014-06-21T16:11:29Z Zhivago: joe: These are the kinds of decisions your code may be trying to make -- what kind of + does + mean in (+ a b)? 2014-06-21T16:11:41Z joe-w-bimedina: addition 2014-06-21T16:11:51Z Zhivago: joe: There's lots of kinds of addition ... 2014-06-21T16:11:57Z vaporatorius is now known as Vaporatorius 2014-06-21T16:11:57Z Zhivago: What's (+ "hello" 12)? 2014-06-21T16:12:11Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-21T16:12:21Z pjb: date 2014-06-21T16:12:24Z pjb: oops. 2014-06-21T16:12:25Z joe-w-bimedina: never tried that, how can you add those 2 2014-06-21T16:12:51Z oleo: 13 2014-06-21T16:13:01Z Zhivago: joe: Try it and see what happens. 2014-06-21T16:13:39Z joe-w-bimedina: (+ "hello" 12) equals -> The value "hello" is not of type NUMBER. :) 2014-06-21T16:13:46Z oleo: 12 people, one more joining in with "hello" = 13 people ! 2014-06-21T16:13:47Z oleo: lol 2014-06-21T16:13:57Z Zhivago: And that's a decision that your lisp system needed to be able to make in order to report that error. 2014-06-21T16:14:20Z Zhivago: How could you help your lisp system not need to see if you did something bone-headed like passed in a string? 2014-06-21T16:14:39Z oleo: wel, i just passed a string... 2014-06-21T16:15:17Z joe-w-bimedina: wouldn't the progn be a decision then ..no idea 2014-06-21T16:15:54Z joe-w-bimedina: oh you could overload the + operator 2014-06-21T16:16:02Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-21T16:16:19Z Zhivago: I think you're still not really getting the hang of reading comprehension. 2014-06-21T16:16:29Z joe-w-bimedina: i saw a link...oh i mean you would replace the + operator for a second with your own version 2014-06-21T16:16:39Z Zhivago: That's not an option. 2014-06-21T16:16:52Z Zhivago: But you do have a compiler with a type system. 2014-06-21T16:16:55Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-21T16:17:15Z Zhivago: How can you use the type system to inform the compiler that it's not going to need to worry about "hello" when it expects a number? 2014-06-21T16:18:18Z joe-w-bimedina: (if (stringp x) ...some sort of continue) 2014-06-21T16:18:29Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-06-21T16:19:06Z Zhivago: Ok, that's one option, and if it reduces the number of tests then it's a win. 2014-06-21T16:19:25Z Zhivago: Otherwise you might look at DECLARE, and so on. 2014-06-21T16:19:32Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec got a customer 2014-06-21T16:19:38Z segv- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-21T16:21:49Z |3b|: joe-w-bimedina: why do you say to install lisp-cv into ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software? 2014-06-21T16:22:49Z |3b|: quicklisp has a directory specifically for installing things that aren't installed by quicklisp, and it knows how to find things in that directory so you don't need to add the paths to asdf by hand 2014-06-21T16:23:08Z |3b|: if you are going to add the paths by hand, there is no reason to put them in a quicklisp directory 2014-06-21T16:26:25Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-21T16:27:01Z qiemem joined #lisp 2014-06-21T16:27:27Z joe-w-bimedina: Zhivago: My customer is gone, ok thanks for the advice, i take it when I profile, declare will be a valuable tool 2014-06-21T16:27:41Z Zhivago: Perhaps. 2014-06-21T16:27:48Z Zhivago: Good luck with your profiling. 2014-06-21T16:28:08Z joe-w-bimedina: Thanks for all your advice on this matter 2014-06-21T16:28:14Z Zhivago: Also, if you're using sbcl there is DISASSEMBLE. 2014-06-21T16:28:39Z joe-w-bimedina: it has to be implementation independent 2014-06-21T16:29:19Z joe-w-bimedina: is drmeisters lisp done yet does anyone know? 2014-06-21T16:31:38Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-21T16:31:53Z Zhivago: I don't believe so. 2014-06-21T16:31:58Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2014-06-21T16:32:15Z joe-w-bimedina: looking forward to that 2014-06-21T16:32:22Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T16:33:09Z joe-w-bimedina: |3b|: its how i do it, it works great 2014-06-21T16:34:03Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-21T16:34:58Z Bike: disassemble is standard. the output will be different across lisps but will still be useful. 2014-06-21T16:35:08Z ahungry: Trying to get cl-cffi-gtk to work with windows and getting a z.dll not found error - anyone ever hear of such a dll before? 2014-06-21T16:35:38Z joe-w-bimedina: |3b|: I saw the rest of your post just now, it seems simpler, add it to software and then add the (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :lisp-cv) to .sbclrc 2014-06-21T16:36:24Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-21T16:36:55Z Bike: ahungry: googling suggests it might be zlib 2014-06-21T16:36:58Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-06-21T16:37:20Z |3b|: joe-w-bimedina: just because it "works" doesn't mean it is a good idea 2014-06-21T16:37:23Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-21T16:38:32Z joe-w-bimedina: |3b|: that Readme.md is just for people working on the project, when I release I'll have an install file 2014-06-21T16:38:38Z |3b|: for example it wouldn't be unreasonable for quicklisp to delete that directory, since it is intended to store quicklisp data files 2014-06-21T16:38:54Z |3b|: and is created and managed by quicklisp 2014-06-21T16:39:10Z |3b|: and you don't gain anything by putting it there, so you shouldn't 2014-06-21T16:39:41Z |3b|: you /would/ gain something (easier install) from putting it in the directory quicklisp specifically defines for that exact purpose 2014-06-21T16:40:06Z |3b|: or if you insist on doing things by hand, put it in some dfirectory unrelated to quicklisp 2014-06-21T16:41:14Z Jubb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-21T16:41:22Z joe-w-bimedina: how would I edit this then to load it (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :lisp-cv) 2014-06-21T16:41:34Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-06-21T16:41:44Z |3b|: which "this" in "edit this"? 2014-06-21T16:42:02Z joe-w-bimedina: the asdf line 2014-06-21T16:42:11Z |3b|: also, you don't need to call (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op ...) anymore, you can (asdf:load-system ...) 2014-06-21T16:42:18Z |3b|: either should work though 2014-06-21T16:42:26Z hitecnologys quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-21T16:43:08Z |3b|: wait, you don't even load your stuff with quicklisp? that makes it even sillier :/ 2014-06-21T16:43:32Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2014-06-21T16:43:39Z |3b|: you should be doing (ql:quickload 'cl-opencv) so you don't need to explicitly install cffi by hand 2014-06-21T16:43:53Z justinmcp quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2014-06-21T16:43:54Z |3b|: and you don't need to quickload asdf, since quicklisp /uses/ asdf in the first place 2014-06-21T16:44:10Z dan64 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-21T16:44:43Z djinni` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-21T16:45:09Z joe-w-bimedina: how do i load from my home folder with quicklisp 2014-06-21T16:45:12Z musicalchair quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-21T16:45:45Z |3b|: do you see the part in your instructions where you add a bunch of stuff to asdf:*central-registry* ? 2014-06-21T16:45:58Z |3b|: that is the part that tells asdf how to find things 2014-06-21T16:46:01Z jchochli quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-21T16:46:05Z |3b|: quicklisp loads things through asdf 2014-06-21T16:46:17Z |3b|: so anything asdf can load, quicklisp can load 2014-06-21T16:46:29Z justinmcp joined #lisp 2014-06-21T16:46:39Z joe-w-bimedina: how do you load from another directory with quicklisp 2014-06-21T16:46:42Z dboswell` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-21T16:47:24Z |3b|: quicklisp loads things through asdf, quicklisp doesn't care about directories (aside from its own directories) 2014-06-21T16:47:53Z malbertife_ joined #lisp 2014-06-21T16:48:24Z joe-w-bimedina: how would asdf even find the file without an explicit directory name? 2014-06-21T16:48:33Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T16:48:45Z |3b|: lots of ways, but in this case we are giving it an explicit directory name 2014-06-21T16:50:01Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-21T16:50:14Z joe-w-bimedina: I don't even have to take up your time on this, once the library is done then it will get built and installed with OpenCv so for now ok is good enough 2014-06-21T16:51:21Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-21T16:51:47Z dan64 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T16:52:02Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-21T16:52:18Z |3b|: well, there is also the issue of people seeing your instructions and possibly thinking it is a good idea 2014-06-21T16:52:26Z djinni` joined #lisp 2014-06-21T16:52:42Z hugod quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-21T16:52:42Z mac_ified quit 2014-06-21T16:52:57Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-21T16:53:06Z |3b|: ... why do you edit files in your home directory with gksu ? 2014-06-21T16:53:49Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-21T16:53:55Z joe-w-bimedina: my tutor is a lisp guru, I'm going to pay him to help me get the library ready for quicklisp but for now I just need to make sure it gets to be OpenCv caliber so I can make that goal too, don't understand about gksu? 2014-06-21T16:54:12Z |3b|: and why do instructions for people wanting to help with the project say to download a tarball instead of cloning it with git? 2014-06-21T16:54:44Z |3b|: gksu runs a program as root, you don't need to be root to edit files in your home directory 2014-06-21T16:54:44Z Jubb joined #lisp 2014-06-21T16:55:01Z |3b|: and you probably don't want to be, since if the file didn't exist yet it will get the wrong permissions 2014-06-21T16:55:40Z |3b|: does your tutor have any publicly visible lisp code? 2014-06-21T16:55:41Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-06-21T16:56:22Z doomlor__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-21T16:56:42Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T16:57:50Z joe-w-bimedina: I removed gksu...here is his website http://www.grindwork.com/site/ 2014-06-21T17:01:16Z Joreji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-21T17:02:29Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-21T17:04:22Z joe-w-bimedina: |3b|: I payed him to do this, cost a 100 but at the time I was on windows and I needed it http://wnetai.wordpress.com/how-to-install-gsll_the-gnu-scientific-library-for-lisp-on-windows-7-and-windows-8/ 2014-06-21T17:04:44Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-06-21T17:07:30Z |3b| likes how both sets of instructions install emacs, then use some other editor for all the editing 2014-06-21T17:07:51Z pjb: Perhaps you shouldn't edit scripts and programs that will be run by root under normal user accounts. If those are compromised, then those scripts and programs might be compromised, and running them as root might be a problem… 2014-06-21T17:08:25Z |3b|: pjb: this was editing user scripts as root for no reason 2014-06-21T17:08:26Z pjb: If you don't want to use root to edit those files, then use another strongly protected user account, and manage access rights on those files strictly. 2014-06-21T17:08:57Z |3b|: ~/.sbclrc and such specifically 2014-06-21T17:09:04Z justinmcp quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2014-06-21T17:09:23Z joe-w-bimedina: just gedit worked so i changed it 2014-06-21T17:09:56Z |3b| wonders why the built-in zip extraction support in windows wasn't good enough, so 7zip was needed 2014-06-21T17:10:17Z justinmcp joined #lisp 2014-06-21T17:10:49Z joe-w-bimedina: I wrote that a long time ago, it was necessary on windows 7 at the time, or at least it seemed neccessary 2014-06-21T17:11:50Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks though ,I'll change that next time i update it 2014-06-21T17:12:08Z pjb: I would keep the alternative. 2014-06-21T17:12:17Z pjb: The web loses too often history. 2014-06-21T17:12:42Z joe-w-bimedina: the alternative? 2014-06-21T17:13:24Z pjb: the older version. Leave mention of the need of 7zip on Windows7 with the old version. Add mention of the new way, not replace. 2014-06-21T17:13:34Z |3b|: instead of specifying c:\Users[Your Username]\AppData... you should use the windows environment variables 2014-06-21T17:15:21Z joe-w-bimedina: I don't use windows anymore, I just keep that around so others can get use of it, maybe I'll get back to writing it after this library is done 2014-06-21T17:15:26Z zarul quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-21T17:15:30Z joe-w-bimedina: or it breaks 2014-06-21T17:15:51Z joe-w-bimedina: its kinda my homage to Liam Healy's graet library 2014-06-21T17:15:54Z joe-w-bimedina: great 2014-06-21T17:21:01Z forgottenone joined #lisp 2014-06-21T17:21:31Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-21T17:24:31Z malbertife_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-21T17:26:08Z avery quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-21T17:26:29Z avery joined #lisp 2014-06-21T17:28:06Z zarul joined #lisp 2014-06-21T17:28:17Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-21T17:31:24Z 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timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-21T20:23:26Z doomlord_1 is now known as doomlord__1 2014-06-21T20:24:58Z blakbunnie27 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-21T20:25:59Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-06-21T20:26:03Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-06-21T20:26:08Z clop2 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T20:27:43Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-21T20:28:38Z doomlord__1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-21T20:29:16Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-06-21T20:30:25Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-21T20:32:23Z forgottenone quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-21T20:32:45Z forgottenone joined #lisp 2014-06-21T20:34:41Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-21T20:35:14Z krid joined #lisp 2014-06-21T20:36:23Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-21T20:37:32Z krid quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-21T20:39:57Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-21T20:41:49Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-21T20:42:45Z 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quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-21T21:47:53Z doomlord_1 is now known as doomlord__1 2014-06-21T21:47:54Z doomlord__1 is now known as doomlord_1 2014-06-21T21:54:06Z raschwell joined #lisp 2014-06-21T21:59:19Z forgottenone joined #lisp 2014-06-21T22:00:01Z doomlord_1 is now known as doomlord__1 2014-06-21T22:00:19Z kcj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-21T22:00:31Z doomlord__1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-21T22:01:11Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T22:01:53Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-21T22:04:52Z loke joined #lisp 2014-06-21T22:06:18Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-21T22:10:39Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-21T22:10:49Z kpreid quit (Quit: Quitting) 2014-06-21T22:11:08Z kpreid joined #lisp 2014-06-21T22:11:31Z AdmiralBumbleBee quit (Quit: AdmiralBumbleBee) 2014-06-21T22:22:42Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-21T22:27:10Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2014-06-21T22:28:29Z jlongster 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pchrist quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-22T00:00:55Z Vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-22T00:02:13Z pchrist joined #lisp 2014-06-22T00:02:25Z n0n0 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-22T00:05:03Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-22T00:05:42Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-22T00:07:47Z ogamita quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-06-22T00:10:22Z doomlord_1 is now known as doomlord__1 2014-06-22T00:11:50Z doomlord__1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-22T00:12:00Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-22T00:13:37Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-22T00:16:43Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-22T00:18:58Z AdmiralBumbleBee joined #lisp 2014-06-22T00:21:10Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-22T00:23:48Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-22T00:26:29Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-22T00:27:51Z replcated joined #lisp 2014-06-22T00:31:19Z replcated quit 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innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-22T01:29:22Z doomlord__1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-22T01:29:40Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2014-06-22T01:30:06Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-22T01:30:13Z oleo is now known as Guest17856 2014-06-22T01:31:02Z Guest17856 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-22T01:32:32Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-22T01:40:35Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-22T01:42:44Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-22T01:42:50Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-22T01:46:03Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-22T01:46:53Z varjag_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-06-22T01:47:50Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-22T01:48:55Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-22T01:58:58Z raschwell quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-06-22T02:03:12Z YDJX joined #lisp 2014-06-22T02:06:55Z clop2 joined #lisp 2014-06-22T02:10:49Z nialo joined #lisp 2014-06-22T02:13:42Z rszeno joined #lisp 2014-06-22T02:18:41Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-22T02:22:45Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-22T02:23:14Z harish joined #lisp 2014-06-22T02:25:16Z jebes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-22T02:28:40Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-06-22T02:29:31Z ovidnis joined #lisp 2014-06-22T02:33:03Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-22T02:39:17Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-22T02:39:48Z MjrTom quit (Quit: Planet Earth is blue, and there's nothing I can do) 2014-06-22T02:44:29Z lduros quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-22T03:00:50Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2014-06-22T03:01:11Z cpc26 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-22T03:01:29Z beach joined #lisp 2014-06-22T03:01:46Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2014-06-22T03:01:47Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2014-06-22T03:02:30Z rszeno: good morning 2014-06-22T03:02:56Z meiji11` joined #lisp 2014-06-22T03:03:17Z mal_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-22T03:03:26Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-22T03:03:49Z doomlord_1 is now known as doomlord__1 2014-06-22T03:03:55Z otwieracz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-22T03:03:56Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-22T03:03:56Z Denommus quit (Changing host) 2014-06-22T03:03:56Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-22T03:04:16Z doomlord__1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-22T03:04:22Z jaimef quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-22T03:04:44Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-22T03:04:47Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-06-22T03:04:47Z teiresias quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-22T03:04:52Z n0n0 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-22T03:05:14Z optikalmouse quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-22T03:05:33Z teiresias joined #lisp 2014-06-22T03:05:40Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-22T03:06:33Z mal_ joined #lisp 2014-06-22T03:07:44Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-22T03:08:00Z 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Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-22T03:31:44Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2014-06-22T03:33:01Z doomlord_1 is now known as doomlord__1 2014-06-22T03:33:03Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-22T03:33:03Z doomlord__1 is now known as doomlord_1 2014-06-22T03:35:37Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-22T03:44:23Z __class__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-22T03:46:13Z Denommus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-22T03:46:24Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-22T03:47:30Z doomlord_1 is now known as doomlord__1 2014-06-22T03:48:26Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-22T03:48:32Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-22T03:49:33Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-22T03:52:12Z doomlord__1 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-22T03:54:26Z __class__ joined #lisp 2014-06-22T03:54:45Z clj-learner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-22T03:56:41Z impulse joined #lisp 2014-06-22T03:59:24Z 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2014-06-22T11:33:39Z pinupgeek joined #lisp 2014-06-22T11:34:48Z joe-w-bimedina: I'm wrapping a Opencv c++ class in Lisp. It has 4 members. I am making 4 function to retrieve the values of those 4 members. 2 require a length keyword parameter but 2 do not though it wouldnt hurt them to use it. should I make all 4 use the length parameter so they match or be honest and accept the inconsistency in the way you use these functions 2014-06-22T11:35:19Z joe-w-bimedina: though it wouldnt hurt them to use it = though it wouldnt hurt them to have one 2014-06-22T11:42:24Z eni joined #lisp 2014-06-22T11:43:26Z ck_: I'm very close to answering you through the form of a koan. 2014-06-22T11:45:57Z joe-w-bimedina: go for it, it is a question asking for advice on design based on your experience with how libraries are designed usually as per your experience. A koan could be apt here 2014-06-22T11:46:34Z [1]test1600 joined #lisp 2014-06-22T11:49:51Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-22T11:49:52Z [1]test1600 is now known as test1600 2014-06-22T11:52:32Z ck_: If consistency of the lambda lists of different functions is something you value, why not consolidate every function of every class of your design, so that everything can be called the same way? Unimportant arguments can easily be ignored, after all. 2014-06-22T11:52:48Z ck_: The next step on this journey is the MFC. Good Luck. 2014-06-22T11:55:01Z joe-w-bimedina: how would you handle this though, you are an experienced programmer right? 2014-06-22T11:57:12Z qiemem joined #lisp 2014-06-22T12:00:09Z Zhivago: joe: http://www.thedailyzen.org/2011/12/zen-koan-maybe.html 2014-06-22T12:00:41Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-22T12:02:08Z joe-w-bimedina: Zhivago: Ah...so just make my best guess and things will work out...not bad reasoning, I accept your answer 2014-06-22T12:03:37Z doomlord_1 is now known as doomlord__1 2014-06-22T12:04:32Z Zhivago: Maybe. 2014-06-22T12:05:03Z nipra quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-22T12:05:05Z joshe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-22T12:05:31Z joe-w-bimedina: :) 2014-06-22T12:06:02Z Zhivago: A non-koan approach is to understand this as being essentially a question of economics. 2014-06-22T12:06:23Z lukego quit (Quit: lukego) 2014-06-22T12:06:37Z Zhivago: Try to keep the cost of your code reasonably minimal without spending too much on minimizing costs. 2014-06-22T12:06:49Z tajjada joined #lisp 2014-06-22T12:06:57Z Zhivago: If you find yourself annoyed by doing something repeatedly, consider optimizing what you're doing. 2014-06-22T12:07:27Z Zhivago: However, as in the koan -- getting it right requires predicting the future successfully, which is tricky. 2014-06-22T12:08:07Z doomlord__1 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-22T12:09:03Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-22T12:09:09Z joe-w-bimedina: I'll just make all accept the length keyword, then everytime you use it you are reminded that when accessing these members the amount of indexes in the object, at least sometimes, matter 2014-06-22T12:09:52Z zeebrah joined #lisp 2014-06-22T12:14:03Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-22T12:15:33Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-22T12:17:34Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-22T12:19:39Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-22T12:20:03Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-22T12:24:13Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-22T12:26:41Z forgottenone quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-22T12:28:23Z fantazo joined #lisp 2014-06-22T12:28:25Z hitecnologys: There's probably been another DNS-resolving incident. SBCL refused to resolve DNS and after restart everything went back to normal. However, in image saved before quitting problem still exists. 2014-06-22T12:32:11Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-22T12:33:27Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-22T12:33:44Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-22T12:37:21Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-22T12:40:50Z antoszka: hitecnologys: maybe #sbcl? 2014-06-22T12:41:36Z hitecnologys: antoszka: maybe. #sbcl is actually much better idea. 2014-06-22T12:50:34Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-06-22T12:53:08Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-22T12:53:29Z nialo joined #lisp 2014-06-22T12:55:55Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-22T12:58:11Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-22T13:00:33Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-22T13:00:37Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-22T13:02:50Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-22T13:03:37Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-06-22T13:04:28Z clj-learner joined #lisp 2014-06-22T13:10:02Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-22T13:14:08Z lukego joined #lisp 2014-06-22T13:15:07Z |3b|: joe-w-bimedina: why not make it so none of them take the length parameter to remind you that sometimes it doesn't matter? 2014-06-22T13:17:09Z joe-w-bimedina: |3b|: the length is neccessary because the class has 2 constructors, one with 3 length and one with 4, the img-idx member is accessible at different indexes in the two depending on length of the constructor used 2014-06-22T13:19:24Z logicalguy joined #lisp 2014-06-22T13:20:09Z |3b|: not sure what you are saying, can you point to the actual type definition in c/c++? 2014-06-22T13:20:41Z fridim_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-22T13:23:34Z joe-w-bimedina: link http://docs.opencv.org/trunk/modules/core/doc/basic_structures.html?highlight=dmatch#DMatch, mem-aref accesses the img-idx member at index 2 on the 4 element dmatch and it is not available on the 3 element one, mem-aref has to access the distance member of the 3 element dmatch at index 4... 2014-06-22T13:25:00Z |3b| doesn't see how you get that from that definition 2014-06-22T13:26:06Z |3b|: just because it doesn't get initialized doesn't mean it magically stops being in the definition of the struct 2014-06-22T13:27:04Z |3b|: and if it did, i'd say they should be 2 distinguishable classes in lisp, since making the user remember which constructor they used sounds annoying and error prone 2014-06-22T13:27:19Z |3b|: (and would probably involve the user just wrapping it in separate types anyway) 2014-06-22T13:28:10Z logicalguy left #lisp 2014-06-22T13:30:20Z logicalguy joined #lisp 2014-06-22T13:30:28Z logicalguy: how do I exit slime mode in emacs? 2014-06-22T13:30:37Z pinupgeek quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-22T13:31:08Z joe-w-bimedina: yeah 2 classes with different names honestly sounds a little off to me, 2014-06-22T13:31:10Z |3b|: you don't usually 'exit' modes, what do you mean? 2014-06-22T13:31:30Z logicalguy: I want to quit emacs 2014-06-22T13:31:32Z |3b|: you can toggle it in a specific buffer with M-x slime-mode 2014-06-22T13:31:52Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-22T13:32:06Z |3b|: if you want to exit emacs completely, use C-x C-c 2014-06-22T13:32:11Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2014-06-22T13:32:21Z Eyes joined #lisp 2014-06-22T13:32:27Z joe-w-bimedina: M-x slime-quit-lisp 2014-06-22T13:32:32Z logicalguy: okay, done, thanks 2014-06-22T13:32:53Z |3b| doesn't do anything specific with slime before exiting emacs 2014-06-22T13:33:23Z ggole joined #lisp 2014-06-22T13:33:25Z logicalguy left #lisp 2014-06-22T13:33:59Z |3b|: joe-w-bimedina: why does having separate names for things that are different sound odd? 2014-06-22T13:35:17Z joe-w-bimedina: they are both the DMatch class, I like making this like OpenCV, then its a no brainer and I can just code, I have a design in mind but that is a big part of it 2014-06-22T13:35:39Z |3b|: and you still haven't explained how the c++ code can tell which constructor was called on a particular region of memory to dynamically decide whether to use the class as defined or randomly ignore it 2014-06-22T13:36:21Z |3b|: "like opencv" would be 1 class, with distance as 4th member exactly as defined in the class, as far as i can tell 2014-06-22T13:36:55Z joe-w-bimedina: I don't understand the jargon you used there really, 2014-06-22T13:37:01Z |3b|: you have a class 2014-06-22T13:37:04Z |3b|: it has 4 members 2014-06-22T13:37:15Z |3b|: they are always at the same offsets 2014-06-22T13:37:24Z |3b|: sometimes all 4 are initialized, sometimes only 3 2014-06-22T13:37:34Z |3b|: they don't move depending on whether they are initialized or not 2014-06-22T13:37:50Z joe-w-bimedina: all true in this case 2014-06-22T13:38:28Z |3b|: so you always use the same offset to access a specific member, no matter which constructor was called 2014-06-22T13:38:39Z joe-w-bimedina: that makes sense ...Thank you 3b, that fixes it 2014-06-22T13:39:28Z |3b|: so you don't need a length argument for any of them now? 2014-06-22T13:39:57Z joe-w-bimedina: exactly, that was awesome to fix that for me:) 2014-06-22T13:40:27Z zwer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-22T13:41:03Z p_l is now known as Msci_p_l 2014-06-22T13:42:55Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-22T13:43:40Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-22T13:45:08Z joe-w-bimedina: 3b you helped me so much since I have been on here, if you have a url I can put it in my contributions.lisp file with a thank you, If this gets into OpenCV that would be relevant. anyone else, If you have helped me, don't be shy, just throw them up here and I'll include them all. 2014-06-22T13:47:15Z KCL_ joined #lisp 2014-06-22T13:48:30Z joe-w-bimedina: Looking for a someone to help with some CFFI errors one on one, I got two that need attention. Can I post that here if I am willing to pay for a session 2014-06-22T13:49:32Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2014-06-22T13:50:28Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-22T13:53:46Z doomlord_1 is now known as doomlord__1 2014-06-22T13:54:44Z zickzackv joined #lisp 2014-06-22T13:55:38Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-22T13:56:12Z MoALTz_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-22T13:58:19Z yuikov joined #lisp 2014-06-22T13:58:38Z doomlord__1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-22T13:59:13Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-22T14:00:23Z varjag_ joined #lisp 2014-06-22T14:01:06Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-22T14:05:24Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-22T14:06:29Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-22T14:08:02Z gadmyth joined #lisp 2014-06-22T14:09:36Z ben_ joined #lisp 2014-06-22T14:13:38Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2014-06-22T14:17:11Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-06-22T14:18:29Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-22T14:18:30Z forgottenone joined #lisp 2014-06-22T14:20:23Z 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phf: I use git://repo.or.cz/closure-html.git 2014-06-22T17:17:32Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-22T17:18:14Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-22T17:23:49Z mhd quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-22T17:23:49Z mhd quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-22T17:24:05Z phf: Xach: thanks! 2014-06-22T17:27:25Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-22T17:28:48Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-06-22T17:29:48Z lukego joined #lisp 2014-06-22T17:30:58Z raschwell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-22T17:31:29Z raschwell joined #lisp 2014-06-22T17:31:58Z zeebrah quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-22T17:32:00Z clj-learner2 joined #lisp 2014-06-22T17:32:15Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-22T17:33:04Z clj-learner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-22T17:33:07Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-22T17:33:48Z raschwell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-22T17:34:15Z raschwell_ joined 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I' 2014-06-22T18:08:25Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-06-22T18:08:31Z malice: Hello. I'm using SBCL. When I use #'yes-or-no-p, it first prints ^G. I don't want this ^G. Why so and how can I remove it? 2014-06-22T18:09:22Z malice: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142973 2014-06-22T18:09:31Z malice: This is how it looks. #'y-or-no-p works fine btw 2014-06-22T18:09:32Z |3b|: clhs y-o-n-p 2014-06-22T18:09:32Z specbot: Matches: y-or-n-p, yes-or-no-p. 2014-06-22T18:09:41Z |3b|: clhs yes-or-no-p 2014-06-22T18:09:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_y_or_n.htm 2014-06-22T18:10:01Z |3b|: "yes-or-no-p ... attracts the user's attention (for example, by ringing the terminal's bell) ..." 2014-06-22T18:10:13Z |3b|: ^g is the ASCII BEL character 2014-06-22T18:10:32Z malice: Oh. 2014-06-22T18:11:07Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-22T18:11:11Z malice: Well, I can't hear anything :) 2014-06-22T18:11:29Z Bike: might have to configure your terminal emulator 2014-06-22T18:11:38Z |3b|: shouldn't be too hard to reimplement without the BEL though (for example by copying the code from sbcl's implementation) 2014-06-22T18:12:18Z malice: Bike, I use slime 2014-06-22T18:12:37Z Bike: well, i run emacs in a terminal. 2014-06-22T18:12:37Z malice: |3b|, Okay. Too bad, that's additional work. 2014-06-22T18:12:49Z malice: Bike, I use GUI 2014-06-22T18:12:56Z Bike: dunno about that then. 2014-06-22T18:13:47Z fantazo joined #lisp 2014-06-22T18:21:04Z blakbunnie27 quit (Quit: EliteBNC free bnc service - http://elitebnc.org - be a part of the Elite!) 2014-06-22T18:22:57Z krid quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-22T18:23:49Z nydel_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-22T18:25:01Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-06-22T18:26:33Z petergil joined #lisp 2014-06-22T18:27:01Z doomlord_1 joined #lisp 2014-06-22T18:27:31Z Hydan quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-22T18:28:02Z hiato quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-22T18:28:20Z hiato joined #lisp 2014-06-22T18:28:27Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-06-22T18:29:45Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-06-22T18:31:26Z malice: Hey, it's me again. Is there a function that converts whole string to upper/lower case? 2014-06-22T18:31:40Z Bike: clhs string-upcase 2014-06-22T18:31:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_stg_up.htm 2014-06-22T18:32:34Z doomlord_1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-22T18:32:36Z malice: Thank you :) 2014-06-22T18:33:03Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-22T18:41:21Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2014-06-22T18:51:06Z nug700 joined #lisp 2014-06-22T18:57:55Z seangrov` joined #lisp 2014-06-22T19:00:52Z hugod|away joined #lisp 2014-06-22T19:01:02Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-22T19:02:18Z arquebus joined #lisp 2014-06-22T19:03:34Z k-stz joined #lisp 2014-06-22T19:03:37Z arquebus quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-22T19:04:02Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-22T19:07:29Z notori0us quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-22T19:07:36Z ogamita joined #lisp 2014-06-22T19:07:44Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-22T19:09:24Z petergil quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-22T19:11:21Z hiato quit (Quit: The great inequality of life: nothing > money) 2014-06-22T19:11:26Z hiato_ joined #lisp 2014-06-22T19:11:34Z hiato_ is now known as hiato 2014-06-22T19:11:51Z clop2 joined #lisp 2014-06-22T19:12:27Z hiato_ joined #lisp 2014-06-22T19:12:33Z drewc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-22T19:12:38Z hiato_ is now known as maximum_yellow 2014-06-22T19:14:18Z notori0us joined #lisp 2014-06-22T19:14:23Z ogamita quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-06-22T19:15:42Z drewc joined #lisp 2014-06-22T19:16:03Z hiato quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-22T19:20:20Z Longlius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-22T19:20:37Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-22T19:21:35Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-06-22T19:22:02Z drewc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-22T19:24:09Z Longlius joined #lisp 2014-06-22T19:24:24Z notori0us quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-22T19:26:42Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-22T19:27:11Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-22T19:28:48Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-06-22T19:30:44Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-22T19:32:34Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-06-22T19:33:03Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-22T19:34:03Z angavrilov quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-22T19:35:50Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-22T19:36:29Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-06-22T19:37:11Z forgottenone joined #lisp 2014-06-22T19:38:28Z maximum_yellow is now known as hiato 2014-06-22T19:40:28Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2014-06-22T19:45:10Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-22T19:47:50Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-22T19:48:59Z forgottenone quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-22T19:49:34Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-22T19:50:35Z vlnx quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-22T19:51:07Z clop2 joined #lisp 2014-06-22T19:51:45Z k-stz` joined #lisp 2014-06-22T19:54:34Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-22T19:58:34Z hiato quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-22T19:58:34Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-22T19:58:38Z seangrov` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-22T20:00:21Z yuikov joined #lisp 2014-06-22T20:02:05Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-22T20:02:08Z yuikov quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-06-22T20:02:24Z theos joined #lisp 2014-06-22T20:06:37Z lukego quit (Quit: lukego) 2014-06-22T20:07:43Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-22T20:08:26Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2014-06-22T20:09:18Z Shinmera quit (Quit: brb) 2014-06-22T20:09:20Z joe-w-bimedina: I would like to run this code (mem-ref (c-pointer (car x)) :int 0) a hundred times each time incrementing the 0 by 1. it might get a lisp error each time but it might not. if it gets an error the options will be retry, abort and *abort. how can I test this function 100 times or how ever many times it takes to get a positive result quickly, stopping at the positive result 2014-06-22T20:10:01Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-22T20:10:35Z genkinodenki quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-22T20:10:52Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-22T20:11:04Z raschwell quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-22T20:11:24Z |3b|: why would you get a lisp error? 2014-06-22T20:11:36Z |3b|: why not verify you have a pointer first 2014-06-22T20:11:57Z arrdem joined #lisp 2014-06-22T20:12:07Z |3b|: handling errors for every element would be a lot slower than checking once at the beginning 2014-06-22T20:12:18Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-22T20:12:38Z joe-w-bimedina: great advice, yea its one of those long pointers: #X429EA89E4289EA56 what do those mean? 2014-06-22T20:13:03Z |3b|: a pointer is just a memory address, same as in C 2014-06-22T20:13:48Z |3b|: usually printed in hexadecimal like that since computers like powers of 2, and hex makes (some of) them more obvious 2014-06-22T20:14:58Z joe-w-bimedina: normally I have no problem accessing pointers like this #X7FFFD4263E00 but when I get pointers like I just posted I get issues, do you know why this is? 2014-06-22T20:15:41Z |3b|: that #x429ea89e4289ea56 is an actual pointer value you are seeing? that suggests you are doing something wrong 2014-06-22T20:15:55Z |3b| doubts you have 63 bits of usable address space 2014-06-22T20:16:18Z joe-w-bimedina: so what is this then #X7FFFD4263E00 2014-06-22T20:16:24Z k-stz` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-22T20:16:39Z stassats: that's 48 bits 2014-06-22T20:16:41Z vlnx joined #lisp 2014-06-22T20:16:42Z |3b|: a pointer that fits in a much more reasonable 48 bits of address space 2014-06-22T20:17:36Z Corey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-22T20:18:06Z Corey joined #lisp 2014-06-22T20:18:29Z joe-w-bimedina: alot of functions I'm wrapping output a 64 bit pointer and those pointers are used successfully by other functions but I can't seem to mem-aref them or give them to other functions, how can I access the data contained in them 2014-06-22T20:18:55Z joe-w-bimedina: *or give them to other functions sometimes 2014-06-22T20:18:56Z |3b|: are you sure they are pointers and not something else? 2014-06-22T20:19:00Z Sir_herrbatka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-22T20:19:21Z cods joined #lisp 2014-06-22T20:19:28Z |3b|: hint: concrete examples including things like specific functions will get more useful answers 2014-06-22T20:19:28Z joe-w-bimedina: (pointerp (c-pointer (car x))) = T 2014-06-22T20:19:50Z |3b|: that just means you told CFFI it would be a pointer, not that it has any meaningful data in it 2014-06-22T20:23:24Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-22T20:24:10Z karswell joined #lisp 2014-06-22T20:28:48Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-06-22T20:29:06Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-06-22T20:30:53Z nipra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-22T20:30:53Z ggole quit 2014-06-22T20:32:39Z joe-w-bimedina: Well when I create a vector with this function(lisp wrapper included) https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/3c78940783af62e0c364 I can mem-aref it and get a KeyPoint object inside it and then mem-aref that to get an integer or float value, it is a 48 bit pointer, but when i try to mem-aref the vector output of this function(lisp wrapper included) https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/8381c8a37358cf83469f ,which is a 64 bit pointe 2014-06-22T20:32:39Z joe-w-bimedina: r, I can get the KeyPoint objects inside the vector with mem-aref but I get unhandled memory fault errors when I try to mem-aref the KeyPoint object 2014-06-22T20:33:07Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-22T20:33:13Z Guest351O2 joined #lisp 2014-06-22T20:33:14Z joe-w-bimedina: |3b|: ^ 2014-06-22T20:37:07Z joe-w-bimedina: I guess if someone knew how to access data in 64 bit pointers that would fix it 2014-06-22T20:37:28Z |3b|: all pointers on a 64bit system are 64 bit 2014-06-22T20:37:31Z stassats: you are accessing garbage 2014-06-22T20:37:59Z |3b|: your problem is that either something is broken, or 'new' doesn't store valid memory addresses in pointers 2014-06-22T20:38:20Z |3b|: try calling that function from c code and print out the result 2014-06-22T20:39:51Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec got a customer 2014-06-22T20:40:50Z |3b|: also, that c++ vector type doesn't look like something you should be messing with using mem-ref anyway 2014-06-22T20:41:16Z |3b|: what is your definition of vector-key-point ? 2014-06-22T20:42:11Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-22T20:42:17Z joe-w-bimedina: strassats: this function then uses the pointer successfully 2014-06-22T20:42:24Z joe-w-bimedina: |3b|: one sec 2014-06-22T20:42:54Z joe-w-bimedina: |3b|: you mean the type definition 2014-06-22T20:42:59Z joe-w-bimedina: http://docs.opencv.org/trunk/modules/features2d/doc/common_interfaces_of_descriptor_extractors.html?highlight=%3A%3Acompute#descriptorextractor-compute 2014-06-22T20:43:07Z joe-w-bimedina: strassats: * 2014-06-22T20:43:16Z joe-w-bimedina: strassats: ^ 2014-06-22T20:43:56Z joe-w-bimedina: you mean the type definition = do you mean the type definition ? 2014-06-22T20:44:21Z |3b|: i assume i mean https://github.com/W-Net-AI/lisp-cv/blob/master/types.lisp#L188 2014-06-22T20:45:04Z joe-w-bimedina: that is it:) 2014-06-22T20:45:10Z |3b|: what is the context of that bit of c code in the gist? 2014-06-22T20:45:16Z |3b| assumes a macro or something? 2014-06-22T20:45:24Z RenRenJuan joined #lisp 2014-06-22T20:45:54Z joe-w-bimedina: it is a macro here in my interop file https://github.com/W-Net-AI/LISP-CV/blob/master/include/interop.hpp 2014-06-22T20:46:09Z |3b|: if so, exactly what c type are you using in the expansion you are testing with? 2014-06-22T20:46:30Z joe-w-bimedina: don't understand 2014-06-22T20:47:05Z |3b|: when you call that macro,it expand to a function definition that returns some type, what is that type 2014-06-22T20:47:15Z |3b|: in the specific case you are testing to get the bad pointer 2014-06-22T20:47:36Z |3b|: i guess vector < KeyPoint >? 2014-06-22T20:47:50Z |3b|: or rather vector * 2014-06-22T20:48:11Z |3b|: yeah, that sounds like something you shouldn't be messing with with mem-ref from lisp 2014-06-22T20:48:15Z Hydan quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-22T20:48:25Z k-stz quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-22T20:48:25Z joe-w-bimedina: tthe pointer is actually good in some respect another function can use it, but the c_arr_To_Vec function outputs a Vector 2014-06-22T20:48:53Z |3b|: c++ functions would expect a pointer to a c++ data structure returned by c++ code 2014-06-22T20:49:24Z |3b|: so your c++ implementation might consider it a valid pointer, even if C wouldn't 2014-06-22T20:50:13Z joe-w-bimedina: I can mem aref one I create from scratch, and in C even ,with the functions, I posted accessing the members is no problem 2014-06-22T20:50:44Z joe-w-bimedina: but when a function writes to and outputs one it is a weird pointer 2014-06-22T20:51:03Z joe-w-bimedina: *64bit pointer 2014-06-22T20:51:12Z klink2 joined #lisp 2014-06-22T20:51:12Z |3b|: what do you mean by "one" and "create from scratch"? 2014-06-22T20:51:18Z notori0us joined #lisp 2014-06-22T20:52:16Z joe-w-bimedina: when I create a vector with my c-arr-to-vec-key-point function I can mem-aref and get the keypoint object inside as well as the int and float values it holds 2014-06-22T20:52:42Z |3b| thought that was what you said didn't work 2014-06-22T20:53:26Z _schulte_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-22T20:54:04Z joe-w-bimedina: it works when i create one with c-arr-to-vec-key-point but not when it is a vector output by a function, I only have these issues with my vector bindings 2014-06-22T20:54:12Z kcj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-22T20:54:34Z nop0x07bc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-22T20:55:16Z |3b|: ah, sorry, i misread before 2014-06-22T20:55:26Z test1600 joined #lisp 2014-06-22T20:55:32Z joe-w-bimedina: np 2014-06-22T20:55:49Z Corey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-22T20:56:21Z Corey joined #lisp 2014-06-22T20:57:03Z |3b| suspects you are passing a pointer when the function expects a pointer to pointer 2014-06-22T20:57:22Z raschwell joined #lisp 2014-06-22T20:57:33Z drmeist__ joined #lisp 2014-06-22T20:58:09Z |3b| still thinks messing with std::vector<> from lisp with mem-aref is a bad idea though 2014-06-22T20:59:19Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec.. customer 2014-06-22T21:00:45Z Adlai` joined #lisp 2014-06-22T21:02:12Z adlai quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-22T21:02:14Z Adlai` is now known as adlai 2014-06-22T21:02:15Z drmeist__ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-22T21:04:14Z tesuji joined #lisp 2014-06-22T21:06:01Z raschwell quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-22T21:07:45Z |3b|: either that or you aren't allocating a c++ vector to pass to the function properly in the first place 2014-06-22T21:08:15Z Bike: well, there seems to be a ::data to get at the actual pointer, and that seems guaranteed to work 2014-06-22T21:08:26Z drmeist__ joined #lisp 2014-06-22T21:08:57Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec still got a customer, thanks:) 2014-06-22T21:09:00Z |3b| thinks that stuff should be hidden from the lisp-level API if that is what that is what feature-detector-detect is supposed to be... it should take care of allocating space for the result and translating it to a lisp list/vector 2014-06-22T21:09:18Z |3b|: user shouldn't need to care about allocating temporary space just to make the c++ api happy 2014-06-22T21:11:41Z tesuji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-22T21:12:34Z drmeist__: /nick drmeister 2014-06-22T21:12:42Z clj-learner joined #lisp 2014-06-22T21:14:14Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-22T21:16:21Z clj-learner2 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-22T21:18:03Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-22T21:19:14Z drmeist__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-22T21:19:42Z drmeist__ joined #lisp 2014-06-22T21:20:11Z tajjada quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-22T21:21:47Z nop0x07bc joined #lisp 2014-06-22T21:21:57Z tajjada joined #lisp 2014-06-22T21:22:03Z drmeist__ quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-22T21:22:20Z drmeist__ joined #lisp 2014-06-22T21:23:22Z clj-learner 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2014-06-22T21:42:24Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2014-06-22T21:46:01Z joe-w-bimedina: Bike: Sorry about that, I had to fix a pc real quick, I access the data member with my vec-keypoint-to-c-arr function when I try to mem-aref the vector output of the function or the one I create manually 2014-06-22T21:47:42Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-22T21:49:48Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-22T21:51:10Z eni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-22T21:51:59Z Msci_p_l is now known as p_l 2014-06-22T21:53:03Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-22T21:53:34Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-22T21:53:35Z joe-w-bimedina: |3b|: I' think I am allocating a c++ vector right I use this function https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/99ab7ee86dfd84d4085b to give the feat-detector-detect a c++ vector 2014-06-22T21:54:54Z klink2 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-22T21:54:56Z |3b|: again, helps if you show all of the code... "I use this" can't be used to verify you use it correctly, while an actual full example could 2014-06-22T21:56:13Z |3b|: and given you have an error from code you think is generally correct, saying you think a particular piece is correct isn't helpful... if you knew whether it was correct or not, you wouldn't need to ask us :) 2014-06-22T21:56:27Z FracV quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-22T21:57:58Z emma is now known as emmaHupUSA 2014-06-22T22:00:47Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-22T22:01:05Z joe-w-bimedina: here is the full code https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/38e2f0c79439c0e21b3b I convert the output of feat-detector-detect to a lisp list with (vector-key-point :to-lisp-list keypoints-1) then setf keypoint-list-1 to variable x so I can do operations on the vector output of the feat-detector-detect function. if there is anything else I can provide pls let me know. I get the error with the bottom 5th format operation 2014-06-22T22:01:26Z joe-w-bimedina: I can post function definitions, whatever you like 2014-06-22T22:01:52Z yuikov joined #lisp 2014-06-22T22:03:14Z joe-w-bimedina: all the format lines are supposed to print the data of the DMatch class members and the KeyPoint class members. the member accessor functions are just a light mem-aref wrapper 2014-06-22T22:03:28Z yuikov quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-06-22T22:03:32Z joe-w-bimedina: the first 4 are DMatch class members 2014-06-22T22:03:50Z joe-w-bimedina: the last 6 are KeyPoint class members 2014-06-22T22:03:54Z |3b| really wishes websites would stop binding / to focus their search widget 2014-06-22T22:04:50Z joe-w-bimedina: |3b|: out of curiousity was that you that typed that last message 2014-06-22T22:05:39Z |3b| used /me which is an irc command for talking in the 3rd person 2014-06-22T22:05:44Z |3b| likes talking in 3rd person 2014-06-22T22:06:01Z stassats: 3b person 2014-06-22T22:06:05Z |3b|: that too 2014-06-22T22:06:53Z xyjprc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-22T22:06:57Z joe-w-bimedina: that is funny, like Jimmy from Seinfeld, I can respect that...be yourself 2014-06-22T22:07:03Z Lebbe quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-22T22:07:28Z joe-w-bimedina: so why is the asterix strassats color? 2014-06-22T22:07:40Z joe-w-bimedina: is 3b strassats? 2014-06-22T22:07:49Z joe-w-bimedina: stras3bats 2014-06-22T22:07:52Z stassats: you need to spell the name correctly first 2014-06-22T22:08:06Z joe-w-bimedina: s3btrassats?:) 2014-06-22T22:08:26Z Lebbe joined #lisp 2014-06-22T22:08:44Z joe-w-bimedina: jk 2014-06-22T22:08:51Z Shinmera: joe-w-bimedina: you are annoying 2014-06-22T22:09:33Z joe-w-bimedina: sorry, if I offended 2014-06-22T22:09:53Z aksr quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-22T22:10:20Z |3b|: joe-w-bimedina: "GC" is a bad name for a utility package, package names are a global namespace, so i wouldn't be surprised if you get conflicts 2014-06-22T22:11:04Z |3b|: and short names are a scarce resource, so better to avoid using them without good reason 2014-06-22T22:11:11Z joe-w-bimedina: conflicts with what? 2014-06-22T22:11:20Z |3b|: anything else that tries to name a package "GC" 2014-06-22T22:12:13Z Shinmera quit (Quit: zzZZ) 2014-06-22T22:12:39Z joe-w-bimedina: Its my own design, you put a gc: or a t: in front of a function to enable garbage collection with TG finalizers. no issues with it yet though 2014-06-22T22:13:03Z |3b|: so you expect your users to never ever want to use your code with any other CL code ever? 2014-06-22T22:13:07Z djinni` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-22T22:13:11Z |3b|: or you just hate them and want them to suffer? 2014-06-22T22:13:21Z dan64 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-22T22:13:22Z justinmcp quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2014-06-22T22:14:22Z musicalchair quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-22T22:14:37Z justinmcp joined #lisp 2014-06-22T22:15:21Z |3b|: can you try printing out keypoints-1 before and after calling feature-detector-detect with it? 2014-06-22T22:15:27Z drmeist__ joined #lisp 2014-06-22T22:15:47Z joe-w-bimedina: haven't had conflicts with these packages yet #:cffi #:cffi-libffi #:trivial-garbage #:lisp-executable or gsll .......one sec 2014-06-22T22:16:03Z |3b|: right, none of them are named GC or T 2014-06-22T22:16:39Z |3b|: i'm suggesting assuming nothing any of your users will want to use will be named GC or T is a bad idea 2014-06-22T22:16:59Z joe-w-bimedina: mine other name is cv is that an issue? 2014-06-22T22:17:19Z |3b|: as a nickname for your main package? 2014-06-22T22:17:32Z |3b|: that isn't as bad, since CV is at least related to what you are doing 2014-06-22T22:17:50Z joe-w-bimedina: so i can call it another name and use that as a nickname right? 2014-06-22T22:18:04Z |3b|: nicknames are in the same namespace as package names, so it is almost as bad 2014-06-22T22:18:25Z |3b|: 'almost' as in '99.9%' 2014-06-22T22:19:03Z joe-w-bimedina: so I should just print keypoints-1 or its contents 2014-06-22T22:19:42Z |3b|: why not just have a function that toggles the garbage-collect slot, and instead of duplicating everything just wrap normal calls in that? 2014-06-22T22:19:51Z |3b|: print both if it matters 2014-06-22T22:20:23Z |3b|: (which it probably does if it has contents that aren't printed when you print the whole object) 2014-06-22T22:20:44Z djinni` joined #lisp 2014-06-22T22:21:28Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-22T22:21:42Z drmeist__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-22T22:23:30Z |3b|: why is vector-key-point a macro? and why isn't it a bunch of functions with meaningful names? 2014-06-22T22:23:36Z joe-w-bimedina: so far when I run (format t "~%1: ~a" keypoints-1) before and after it is identical.....and when I print (format t "~%1: ~a" (vector-key-point :to-lisp-list keypoints-1) before and after the first is nil and the second is a long list of Keypoint objects 2014-06-22T22:23:58Z |3b| meant the actual pointers 2014-06-22T22:24:13Z |3b|: contents of the actual lisp object 2014-06-22T22:24:24Z dan64 joined #lisp 2014-06-22T22:24:34Z joe-w-bimedina: Its an all in one function to c....should I post so you can see them 2014-06-22T22:24:47Z |3b|: which "it"? 2014-06-22T22:26:05Z joe-w-bimedina: ok the vector has keypoints in it and the keypoints have integers and floats in them so which should I show you? 2014-06-22T22:26:22Z |3b|: also, didn't you originally say you couldn't mem-aref the output of feature-detector-detect 2014-06-22T22:27:04Z |3b|: neither, i was interested in the pointer stored in the std-vector-key-point object stored in the variable keypoints-1 (that is what is there, right?) 2014-06-22T22:27:35Z joe-w-bimedina: I can print those but not their integer contents 2014-06-22T22:28:01Z |3b| apparently has no idea what your problem is 2014-06-22T22:28:45Z joe-w-bimedina: I can't mem-aref the output of the key-points inside the vector output of feat-detector-detect 2014-06-22T22:29:08Z joe-w-bimedina: I think because they are 64bit pointers 2014-06-22T22:29:15Z |3b|: all pointers are 64 bits 2014-06-22T22:29:24Z |3b|: (or none are) 2014-06-22T22:29:44Z |3b|: that just says how much space there is in the pointer 2014-06-22T22:29:50Z joe-w-bimedina: someone just said the shorter pointer I posted was a 48 bit pointer 2014-06-22T22:30:12Z joe-w-bimedina: the length of the pointer seems to point to the issue 2014-06-22T22:30:25Z |3b|: that meant it only uses the lower 48 bits of the 64 bit pointer, which is all the hardware can address 2014-06-22T22:31:06Z |3b|: if you have a pointer with more than 48 bits set, either you got it from a runtime that does odd things that you didn't account for, or it isn't a valid pointer 2014-06-22T22:31:14Z musicalchair joined #lisp 2014-06-22T22:31:15Z joe-w-bimedina: so when it is a long pointer I would need to figure out how to access it 2014-06-22T22:31:25Z |3b|: no, you need to figure out why you are getting garbage 2014-06-22T22:31:36Z joe-w-bimedina: it is valid and tested pointer 2014-06-22T22:31:42Z |3b| still thinks you shouldn't be doing mem-aref on std::vector<> s 2014-06-22T22:31:58Z |3b|: which "it"? 2014-06-22T22:32:06Z |3b|: lets start over 2014-06-22T22:32:24Z |3b|: print the c_pointer in keypoints-1 before and after feature-detector-detect 2014-06-22T22:32:41Z |3b|: or c-pointer or whatever it is 2014-06-22T22:32:48Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec 2014-06-22T22:35:47Z joe-w-bimedina: here is before and after of (c-pointer keypoints-1) but the long pointer was inside keypoints-1 should I print that? 1: #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X7FFFD425D880) 2014-06-22T22:35:47Z joe-w-bimedina: 2: #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X7FFFD425D880) 2014-06-22T22:38:01Z stassats: that's stack allocated, isn't it? 2014-06-22T22:39:09Z joe-w-bimedina: don't know what stack allocated means exactly 2014-06-22T22:39:32Z stassats: oh man 2014-06-22T22:40:11Z stassats: maybe you should have tried some easier project first 2014-06-22T22:41:02Z joe-w-bimedina: can't mem-aref what is inside key-points-1 before because it is empty, after it is that long pointer 2014-06-22T22:42:44Z |3b|: you seem to overuse macros 2014-06-22T22:43:06Z joe-w-bimedina: strassats: I only have 3 big cffi errors, I'm going to throw them at my tutor, if we can't figure it out here because I havent been able to crack them yet, 2014-06-22T22:43:14Z |3b|: (which is another sign you should have tried an easier project) 2014-06-22T22:43:34Z |3b|: joe-w-bimedina: 3 that you know of 2014-06-22T22:44:10Z |3b|: and lots of API design problems you don't know of because you don't know lisp 2014-06-22T22:44:22Z stassats: so, you have a tutor? what do you need #lisp for then? 2014-06-22T22:44:54Z |3b|: and lots of code duplication problems 2014-06-22T22:47:48Z joe-w-bimedina: rather just tackle one thing at a time the library is still in process, I know about many issues and am doing them one at a time 2014-06-22T22:48:04Z joe-w-bimedina: any idea about this issue 2014-06-22T22:48:22Z vlnx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-22T22:48:39Z |3b|: well, not having all the other issues would make it easier to find problems 2014-06-22T22:49:01Z joe-w-bimedina: it is just this on specific thing for now 2014-06-22T22:49:02Z |3b|: is c++11 common enough to rely on these days? 2014-06-22T22:49:23Z stassats: minion: advice on portable 2014-06-22T22:49:23Z minion: #12017: It doesn't need to be portable, it just needs to work on your system. 2014-06-22T22:49:31Z joe-w-bimedina: I've been using it 2014-06-22T22:49:45Z |3b|: right, which is why i wondered 2014-06-22T22:50:10Z vlnx joined #lisp 2014-06-22T22:50:50Z joe-w-bimedina: I use g++ -Wall -shared -fPIC -o point.so point.cpp to compile my .so's though, c++11 in emacs for testing 2014-06-22T22:52:26Z |3b|: ok, print out (vec-key-point-length keypoints-1) and (vec-key-point-to-c-arr keypoints-1) before and after the call to feature-detector-detect ? 2014-06-22T22:52:44Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec 2014-06-22T22:53:44Z joe-w-bimedina: here they are 1: #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X00000000) 2014-06-22T22:53:44Z joe-w-bimedina: 2: #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X7FFFD488A540) 2014-06-22T22:54:56Z stassats: are you running them in the dynamic extent? 2014-06-22T22:55:03Z joe-w-bimedina: if I shouldn't use mem-aref on vector I can just write C accessors, if you think that is best, 2014-06-22T22:55:11Z joe-w-bimedina: what is dynamic extent 2014-06-22T22:55:11Z stassats: because it's clearly stack allocated and may not be live anymore 2014-06-22T22:55:35Z |3b|: it looks like you aren't actually using mem-aref on the vector so that may be OK 2014-06-22T22:55:36Z joe-w-bimedina: its live another function uses it ok 2014-06-22T22:56:01Z gigetoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-22T22:56:03Z |3b| wouldn't assume "another function uses it" means it is "ok" 2014-06-22T22:56:13Z joe-w-bimedina: the vector-key-point :to-lisp-list uses mem-aref 2014-06-22T22:56:15Z stassats: you can't use c/c++ without knowing what stack allocation is 2014-06-22T22:56:40Z joe-w-bimedina: I probably know it but not by that term 2014-06-22T22:56:46Z |3b|: it uses mem-aref on a c array, not on the std::vector<> 2014-06-22T22:56:52Z |3b|: which is reasonable 2014-06-22T22:57:39Z |3b|: so is https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/38e2f0c79439c0e21b3b#file-gistfile1-txt-L35 where you say you get errors? 2014-06-22T22:58:10Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-22T22:58:14Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2014-06-22T22:58:15Z stassats: are the functions called from C? 2014-06-22T22:58:20Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-06-22T22:58:30Z stassats: i.e. callbacks 2014-06-22T22:58:40Z joe-w-bimedina: yes on this line (format t "~%~%y = ~a" (y (first keypoint-list-1))) the ones below should get errors too, the format lines below it 2014-06-22T22:58:49Z joe-w-bimedina: it is C++ wrapped in C 2014-06-22T22:59:05Z WeirdEnthusiast quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-22T22:59:45Z stassats: are you using slime? 2014-06-22T22:59:48Z joe-w-bimedina: yes 2014-06-22T23:00:23Z |3b|: ok, so you get past the (vector-key-point :to-lisp-list ...), and the (y ...) on line 41 errors 2014-06-22T23:00:56Z joe-w-bimedina: don't understand 2014-06-22T23:00:56Z |3b|: and if you print (first keypoint-list-1) it is one of the bad pointers? 2014-06-22T23:01:03Z stassats: joe-w-bimedina: are you using slime-repl? 2014-06-22T23:01:05Z hiato joined #lisp 2014-06-22T23:01:44Z joe-w-bimedina: yes it is a bad pointer 2014-06-22T23:01:52Z |3b|: where is the function Y defined? 2014-06-22T23:01:58Z joe-w-bimedina: do I use slime-repl for what in general? 2014-06-22T23:02:15Z WeirdEnthusiast joined #lisp 2014-06-22T23:02:24Z stassats: right now 2014-06-22T23:02:31Z stassats: when printing (SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X7FFFD488A540) 2014-06-22T23:02:38Z joe-w-bimedina: I just wrote it here (defmethod y ((self cv-key-point)) (mem-aref (c-pointer self) :float 1)) 2014-06-22T23:03:16Z |3b|: you should just translate KeyPoint into lisp data, not wrap the pointer in a lisp struct... it would probably be about as fast and much easier to use from lisp 2014-06-22T23:03:48Z joe-w-bimedina: yes I set keypoint-list one to the X param defined at the top of the gist and did the printing at the repl 2014-06-22T23:04:26Z joe-w-bimedina: I don't wrap in a lisp struct, do you mean class? 2014-06-22T23:04:36Z |3b| said to print before and after the call, not after the whole function returned 2014-06-22T23:05:10Z |3b|: that pointer is probably invalid by that point, since the keypoints-1 may have been deallocated already 2014-06-22T23:05:35Z |3b|: i mean lisp code should see a lisp data structure that doesn't contain any C pointers 2014-06-22T23:06:08Z joe-w-bimedina: here is how i printed it https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/a4dbe1d5fd4982235f6a the pointer is valid feat-detector-compute uses it 2014-06-22T23:06:12Z |3b|: (defclass key-point () ((x) (y))) or a (simple-array single-float (2)) or something 2014-06-22T23:06:37Z |3b|: will you please stop removing context? 2014-06-22T23:06:57Z |3b|: none of those variables are declared anywhere or initialized, so those 4 lines are meaningliess 2014-06-22T23:06:57Z joe-w-bimedina: you want the whole code? 2014-06-22T23:07:04Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec 2014-06-22T23:07:39Z |3b|: small functions that exhibit the problem and don't do anything extra are nicer... random bits and pieces with no context are not nice 2014-06-22T23:08:52Z joe-w-bimedina: here is the context https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/aa4bbbaaa4f023af8411 .....I'll rewrite, just be a few minutes thanks for all your help so far:) 2014-06-22T23:09:44Z |3b|: ok, those prints are probably OK... if you had used the value of X outside the old version of that function, the contents would be invalid 2014-06-22T23:10:02Z |3b|: proper indentation would be nice as well though 2014-06-22T23:13:04Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-22T23:13:04Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-22T23:13:55Z |3b|: do you have a C version of that example? 2014-06-22T23:14:09Z |3b|: if not, making one would be a good next step 2014-06-22T23:14:11Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2014-06-22T23:14:47Z |3b| possibly sees the problem, but would be easier to verify with something to compare against 2014-06-22T23:15:21Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-22T23:15:22Z joe-w-bimedina: ..here is indented smaller version https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/ec3dd25c98a5a6385b42 ok will make a C version...be a few minutes 2014-06-22T23:17:15Z malice quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-22T23:18:39Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-06-22T23:21:43Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-22T23:24:30Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-06-22T23:26:50Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-22T23:28:47Z Praise quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-22T23:31:30Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-22T23:32:11Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2014-06-22T23:32:29Z qiemem quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-06-22T23:34:09Z patrickwonders joined #lisp 2014-06-22T23:34:19Z patrickwonders quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-22T23:36:26Z joe-w-bimedina: almost done 2014-06-22T23:38:46Z yuikov joined #lisp 2014-06-22T23:39:28Z pjb: Are we there yet? 2014-06-22T23:39:52Z joe-w-bimedina: close 2014-06-22T23:40:06Z pjb: And now? 2014-06-22T23:41:17Z joe-w-bimedina: even closer:) 2014-06-22T23:41:41Z zwer_n joined #lisp 2014-06-22T23:41:46Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-22T23:41:58Z tjos quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-22T23:44:00Z tjos joined #lisp 2014-06-22T23:44:58Z Praise joined #lisp 2014-06-22T23:46:06Z joe-w-bimedina: stuck on c error, got it mostly done but not enough 2014-06-22T23:46:17Z joe-w-bimedina: have to debug 2014-06-22T23:49:04Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-22T23:49:46Z joe-w-bimedina: past it one sec 2014-06-22T23:52:14Z joe-w-bimedina: |3b|: got the base code, what do you want me to do with it? 2014-06-22T23:52:17Z joe-w-bimedina: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/0024422bc11f0f7a25b0 2014-06-22T23:54:06Z clop2 joined #lisp 2014-06-22T23:54:57Z effy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-22T23:55:08Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-06-22T23:56:11Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-22T23:56:15Z |3b|: joe-w-bimedina: ok, print out x/y for the first few keypoints 2014-06-22T23:56:26Z |3b|: after feature detection 2014-06-22T23:56:39Z zwer_n is now known as zwer 2014-06-22T23:57:10Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-22T23:57:30Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec 2014-06-22T23:58:48Z effy joined #lisp 2014-06-23T00:01:05Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T00:02:46Z joe-w-bimedina: sorry , had a customer, one sec 2014-06-23T00:06:51Z joe-w-bimedina: can you show me how to print the x member got this so far cout << &keypoints_1->at(0)->x 2014-06-23T00:07:13Z emmaHupUSA is now known as em 2014-06-23T00:07:39Z |3b| would have guessed (&keypoints)[0].x 2014-06-23T00:07:53Z |3b| hasn't used c++ in quite a while though 2014-06-23T00:09:13Z joe-w-bimedina: I get ‘vector_KeyPoint’ has no member named ‘x’ keyPoint class has the x meber though 2014-06-23T00:09:23Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-23T00:10:55Z |3b|: (&&keypoints)[0].x ? 2014-06-23T00:11:41Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2014-06-23T00:11:46Z Skylander joined #lisp 2014-06-23T00:12:07Z Skylander: has anyone read the book Let Over Lambda? 2014-06-23T00:12:20Z |3b|: or maybe that should be (**keypoints)[0].x you confused me and now i don't remember the syntax in c :p 2014-06-23T00:12:38Z stassats: three-star programming, yay 2014-06-23T00:13:00Z Skylander: should i read LOL? or shoudl i read some other book. I ahve basic knowledge of how to use lisp but no macro experience. 2014-06-23T00:13:08Z stassats: Skylander: read some other book 2014-06-23T00:13:23Z Skylander: k. is LOL bad? or just too advanced? 2014-06-23T00:13:32Z |3b|: LOL has some unusual ideas 2014-06-23T00:13:38Z seangrov` joined #lisp 2014-06-23T00:13:45Z stassats: Skylander: too weird 2014-06-23T00:14:01Z |3b|: that might be OK or good if you know when/why to use/not used them, but would be bad if you don't know yet, since you might pick up some bad habits 2014-06-23T00:14:42Z Skylander: k. what is another book for lisp? i'm actually still a noob. 2014-06-23T00:14:53Z stassats: minion: PAIP? 2014-06-23T00:14:54Z minion: PAIP: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/PAIP 2014-06-23T00:15:42Z Skylander: k. i will read paip. Just want to ask because it takes me months to read a programming book. Like to get the opinions before I commit the time. 2014-06-23T00:16:02Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-23T00:16:18Z Skylander: and I rarely have the resolve to finish a programming book. But i'm commited to learning lisp. in it for the long haul. 2014-06-23T00:16:26Z stassats: or start with Practical Common Lisp, if you haven't read it yet 2014-06-23T00:17:05Z Skylander: k. 2014-06-23T00:17:21Z Skylander: i heared good thigns about Practical CL. i may go with it. 2014-06-23T00:17:50Z |3b|: joe-w-bimedina: yeah, looks like you want * not & there, not sure if 1 or 2 2014-06-23T00:18:46Z Skylander: hey. is Clozure CL better than SBCL? 2014-06-23T00:19:18Z |3b|: both have advantages and disadvantages 2014-06-23T00:19:39Z Denommus: I prefer CCL for Windows and SBCL for *nix 2014-06-23T00:19:48Z |3b|: ccl compiles /very/ quickly for example, and has slightly smaller cores, and might run better on windows 2014-06-23T00:20:05Z Skylander: seems like Clozure is very cross-platform. even had apple Cocoa support but i'm not sure how will that works. 2014-06-23T00:20:07Z |3b|: sbcl has some nice optimization features, and can generate very fast code 2014-06-23T00:20:12Z xristos: sbcl is great on linux, ccl is great on osx and windows 2014-06-23T00:20:27Z Denommus: Skylander: SBCL is also getting cross-platform treatment 2014-06-23T00:20:30Z jdtcookie joined #lisp 2014-06-23T00:20:42Z Skylander: is lisp pretty portable? I mean if i commit to using Clozure, would the jump to SBCL be painless? 2014-06-23T00:20:51Z |3b|: it can be 2014-06-23T00:20:51Z stassats: no 2014-06-23T00:20:52Z Bike: mostly painless 2014-06-23T00:21:11Z notori0us is now known as vv 2014-06-23T00:21:16Z |3b|: the part specified by the CL standard is very portable between implementations 2014-06-23T00:21:16Z Bike: especially if you're just learning, it's not like you're going to be using the bridge or nuthin 2014-06-23T00:21:18Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-23T00:21:20Z vv is now known as vvvv 2014-06-23T00:21:23Z stassats: or make that 'yes' 2014-06-23T00:21:25Z vvvv is now known as notori0us 2014-06-23T00:21:42Z |3b|: some other things are well covered by portability libraries, like bordeaux-threads, usocket, iolib 2014-06-23T00:22:00Z Denommus: Skylander: there are some small differences, but I guess a lot of them are handled by libraries 2014-06-23T00:22:04Z |3b|: so code using those libs is reasonably portable 2014-06-23T00:22:08Z |3b|: if you use things like the CCL cocoa bindings, those won't be portable at all 2014-06-23T00:22:18Z Denommus: Skylander: especially if you use ASDF + Quicklisp 2014-06-23T00:22:47Z joe-w-bimedina: didn't work, at this example http://codereview.stackexchange.com/questions/28115/opencv-2-4-5-face-detection they do what i'm trying to do here on this line: roi_c.x = faces[ic].x; but its not working , maybe if you looked here with me 2014-06-23T00:22:56Z Skylander: Awesome. I think i'll go with Clozure since it gives a priority to cross platform. 2014-06-23T00:23:21Z Denommus: Skylander: well, SBCL as of now runs in Android through the NDK 2014-06-23T00:23:46Z Skylander: ohhh. Can clozure run on android? android would be pretty cool. 2014-06-23T00:23:47Z jdtcooki` joined #lisp 2014-06-23T00:23:58Z zRecursive: Skylander: Is ECL an another choice ? 2014-06-23T00:24:05Z |3b|: joe-w-bimedina: you are using your c wrappers, so some things might need adjusted 2014-06-23T00:24:14Z Skylander: never heard of ECL. i'll ahve to look it up. 2014-06-23T00:24:19Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-06-23T00:24:31Z Denommus: Skylander: it could for a time. I don't know now. But I'd recommend you to do cross-implementation code, and use whenever implementation is ported to the platform you're targetting 2014-06-23T00:24:34Z joe-w-bimedina: yea still trying 2014-06-23T00:24:36Z zRecursive: Skylander: IIRC, ECL can run on Android 2014-06-23T00:25:13Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-23T00:25:39Z jdtcookie quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-23T00:26:20Z stassats: Skylander: does clozure run on alpha? didn't think so! 2014-06-23T00:26:31Z Skylander: what's alpha? 2014-06-23T00:26:33Z |3b|: ccl, sbcl and ecl have been run on android devices, not sure if any of them can run as android applications though 2014-06-23T00:26:35Z jdtcooki` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T00:26:51Z hiato quit (Quit: The great inequality of life: nothing > money) 2014-06-23T00:26:52Z stassats: compare http://sbcl.org/platform-table.html and http://clozure.com/clozure-cl.html 2014-06-23T00:27:01Z Denommus: zRecursive: SBCL can since 1.2, can't it? 2014-06-23T00:27:20Z |3b|: ccl and ecl are the more likely of the 3 at this point, but probably would take some work if at all 2014-06-23T00:27:24Z stassats: Denommus: that would be a yet unreleased 1.2.1 2014-06-23T00:27:25Z Denommus: |3b|: well, ECL can be called from NDK, the biggest issue is the license 2014-06-23T00:27:32Z Denommus: stassats: oh! 2014-06-23T00:27:35Z dost-thou-like joined #lisp 2014-06-23T00:28:00Z stassats: except that i can't be bothered to write build scripts, so nobody can build it, except myself 2014-06-23T00:28:02Z |3b|: Denommus: could be theoretically, or someone has actually done it? 2014-06-23T00:28:49Z joe-w-bimedina: |3b|: the issue might be in c becaude I think this worked before : KeyPoint* a = keypoints_1[0];, I get cannot convert ‘vector_KeyPoint {aka std::vector}’ to ‘cv::KeyPoint*’ in initialization but keypoints_1[0]; should be the KeyPoint right? 2014-06-23T00:28:52Z stassats: |3b|: SBCL runs as an android application 2014-06-23T00:28:56Z stassats: which isn't really that useful 2014-06-23T00:28:57Z Denommus: |3b|: I have called it at some point when trying to make Lisp a scripting language for a game engine from the company I was working on 2014-06-23T00:29:14Z Denommus: |3b|: but the license was prohibitive for my bosses, so I quit 2014-06-23T00:29:32Z zz_karupa is now known as karupa 2014-06-23T00:29:37Z dost-thou-like quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-23T00:29:42Z |3b|: stassats: in the "startable from the android UI" sense? 2014-06-23T00:29:54Z stassats: well, yes and no 2014-06-23T00:30:26Z stassats: it's an ordinary linux executable, so it has to be run in a separate process, no GUI 2014-06-23T00:30:32Z stassats: no sbcl.so 2014-06-23T00:30:39Z |3b|: in either case, i meant "NativeActivity" or callable from dalvik, which i think is what it doesn't do 2014-06-23T00:30:45Z Denommus: ah, like the ecl interpreter? 2014-06-23T00:30:56Z stassats: sbcl.so is too much work 2014-06-23T00:30:56Z Denommus: that's a bummer 2014-06-23T00:31:29Z stassats: also, 1.2.1 also will have support for DragonflyBSD and debian kfreebsd 2014-06-23T00:31:37Z stassats: so, who's portable now? 2014-06-23T00:31:49Z Denommus: well, then I'll keep recommending ECL if someone wants a Lisp in Android. Either that or Chicken Scheme 2014-06-23T00:31:58Z gadmyth left #lisp 2014-06-23T00:32:02Z Denommus: (Clojure has a HUGE startup time) 2014-06-23T00:32:35Z |3b|: joe-w-bimedina: ah, right, i misremembered the type... try (*keypoints_1)[0].x ? 2014-06-23T00:32:38Z Skylander: what is better. Common Lisp or Clojure? 2014-06-23T00:32:51Z stassats: common lisp, naturally 2014-06-23T00:33:02Z Skylander: good because i'm learning common lisp 2014-06-23T00:33:49Z joe-w-bimedina: I got it it was KeyPoint* a = &(*keypoints_1)[0]; cout << a->pt.x; it equals 68.9577 2014-06-23T00:34:53Z stassats: to get a proper sbcl.so, it would need to have a relocatable image (there's some bitrotted code doing that) and getting rid of signals for doing GC, and not using memory protection 2014-06-23T00:35:09Z |3b|: ah, right, forgot the pt, so should be (*keypoints_1)[0].pt.x 2014-06-23T00:35:53Z wonkarwalker joined #lisp 2014-06-23T00:35:54Z Skylander: do you guys use SLIME? 2014-06-23T00:35:58Z |3b|: so print out x and y for at least [0] and [1] 2014-06-23T00:36:00Z joe-w-bimedina: yea that worked too:) 2014-06-23T00:36:01Z stassats: Skylander: naturally 2014-06-23T00:36:01Z shridhar joined #lisp 2014-06-23T00:36:05Z |3b|: Skylander: yes, and paredit 2014-06-23T00:36:08Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec 2014-06-23T00:36:24Z |3b| suspects one of the Y will be 79.32933 or so 2014-06-23T00:36:49Z Skylander: sweet. do you use the tool redshank? 2014-06-23T00:36:49Z Denommus: Skylander: everybody here will definitely say Common Lisp, everyone in #clojure will say Clojure 2014-06-23T00:36:49Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-23T00:37:12Z stassats: the people in #clojure just don't know better 2014-06-23T00:37:13Z Skylander: denommus. Do you prefer common lisp? 2014-06-23T00:37:30Z Denommus: Skylander: Clojure has some really interesting ideas, but some of them really put me off, like the namespace system 2014-06-23T00:37:40Z Denommus: Skylander: yes, I prefer Common Lisp 2014-06-23T00:37:55Z Skylander: sweet! 2014-06-23T00:38:02Z stassats: the java tie in is annoying 2014-06-23T00:38:37Z Denommus: stassats: well, ClojureScript exists (but then it's a "JavaScript" tie-in) 2014-06-23T00:39:11Z joe-w-bimedina: |3b|: it prints it is 68.9577 79.3293 223.576 53.1492, it works in c same as the other error I was having 2014-06-23T00:39:34Z |3b| fails to parse "it works in c same as the other error" 2014-06-23T00:39:50Z |3b|: you had another lisp error, but a c version works? 2014-06-23T00:39:54Z wonkarwa` joined #lisp 2014-06-23T00:40:02Z Guest351O2 quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-23T00:40:14Z wonkarwa` left #lisp 2014-06-23T00:40:23Z joe-w-bimedina: had a similar error before this same exact thing but with vector 2014-06-23T00:40:57Z wonkarwalker quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-23T00:41:07Z Skylander left #lisp 2014-06-23T00:41:13Z jdtcookie joined #lisp 2014-06-23T00:41:19Z |3b|: as far as the current problem though, 68.95769 79.32933 is #X429EA89E4289EA56 if you interpret the bytes as a 64bit pointer instead of 2 single floats 2014-06-23T00:41:37Z |3b|: you have a vector which means the contents of the vector are actual KeyPoint structs 2014-06-23T00:41:47Z |3b|: your lisp key-point type is defined as a pointer 2014-06-23T00:41:54Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-06-23T00:41:57Z joe-w-bimedina: you mean class objects? 2014-06-23T00:42:02Z |3b|: trying to access structs as if they are pointers is unlikely to work well 2014-06-23T00:42:20Z |3b|: if they can't be accessed as C structs, you shouldn't be touching them from lisp 2014-06-23T00:42:45Z |3b|: so no, I don't really mean class (even if that's what c++ calls it) 2014-06-23T00:43:27Z joe-w-bimedina: should I convert the KeyPoint class to a struct then in C? 2014-06-23T00:43:30Z |3b| would say something about the c++ concept of "plain old data" types if i actually remembered the details 2014-06-23T00:44:07Z klink2 joined #lisp 2014-06-23T00:44:10Z |3b|: no idea, that depends on whether it is stored in the same format as a c struct or not (see the "plain old data" stuff) 2014-06-23T00:44:18Z |3b|: if it is, you can use it as if it were a struct 2014-06-23T00:44:27Z klink2 quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-23T00:44:49Z |3b|: class and struct are pretty much the same thing in c++ anyway as far as i know, just different defaults for public or not 2014-06-23T00:45:03Z klink2 joined #lisp 2014-06-23T00:46:07Z joe-w-bimedina: so would you just attempt to convert to a struct on the C side first, but wait if structs are analagous to classes it shouldn't be an issue right? 2014-06-23T00:48:15Z joe-w-bimedina: I'll work with it, I can't begin to thank you for all your help today, but Thank you very much 2014-06-23T00:48:37Z joe-w-bimedina: at least I got the issue cornered 2014-06-23T00:49:36Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-23T00:50:31Z jdtcooki` joined #lisp 2014-06-23T00:51:54Z |3b|: same thing /in c++/ 2014-06-23T00:52:11Z |3b|: things in c++ aren't always the same as things with the same name in C 2014-06-23T00:52:12Z jdtcookie quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-23T00:52:55Z |3b|: so you need to make sure it is safe to access from C (and by extension lisp, since it uses a FFI designed for interacting with C) 2014-06-23T00:53:14Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-23T00:53:47Z |3b| suspects it is ok, since i don't see any virtual stuff or destructors, but i don't remember the exact rules 2014-06-23T00:53:55Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-23T00:54:10Z |3b|: if it is safe to use, you need to fix your lisp side bindings, which would probably have a problem even if you did make an extra copy in C 2014-06-23T00:54:23Z kpreid quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-23T00:55:05Z |3b|: you have an array of structures, not an array of pointers, but you try to access it as an array of pointers in lisp 2014-06-23T00:55:10Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-23T00:55:45Z joe-w-bimedina: could it be calling the return of my c functions as pointer 2014-06-23T00:58:29Z MjrTom quit (Quit: Planet Earth is blue, and there's nothing I can do) 2014-06-23T01:00:01Z |3b| is pretty sure it is trying to access an array of structures as an array of pointers 2014-06-23T01:00:04Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-23T01:00:07Z |3b|: all from lisp 2014-06-23T01:00:11Z sandhu joined #lisp 2014-06-23T01:02:32Z joe-w-bimedina: do you think the data could be there at an offset I could reference with mem-aref or I should design a defcstruct for it or something else 2014-06-23T01:02:41Z joe-w-bimedina: mem-aref = mem-ref 2014-06-23T01:02:47Z kcj quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-23T01:03:21Z |3b|: both? 2014-06-23T01:03:59Z |3b| thinks you should be translating all the C/C++ data into lisp data much sooner, and stop exposing all the C/c++ parts of the API to the lisp api 2014-06-23T01:04:27Z |3b|: and any function small enough for the translation to be too much overhead, reimplement it in lisp 2014-06-23T01:04:49Z joe-w-bimedina: would that give me the speed I'm looking for 2014-06-23T01:05:24Z |3b|: if you can't risk any loss of speed, why are you using lisp in the first place? 2014-06-23T01:05:55Z |3b|: if you are using lisp for increased flexibility, more efficient use of developer time, etc, you should be designing an API to optimize those qualities 2014-06-23T01:06:21Z joe-w-bimedina: I can't use C/C++/anything else it is this or nothing? 2014-06-23T01:06:24Z |3b|: then after you are done experimenting/prototyping/whatever, you can rewrite any parts that aren't fast enough in C/C++ anyway 2014-06-23T01:07:30Z |3b| thinks a properly written 'nice' api would be "fast enough" for me, but you seem to be much more concerned about performance than making the API nice or even usable 2014-06-23T01:07:42Z pillton joined #lisp 2014-06-23T01:07:48Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2014-06-23T01:08:02Z |3b|: if you want an API that looks like c++, then you should use it from c++, since c++ has lots more features to make c++ apis usable (like RAII, templates, etc) 2014-06-23T01:08:47Z joe-w-bimedina: I won't write in C++/C that takes the fun out...it is usable to me, I get it and have alot of fun with it, I make alot of examples that are pretty straight foward, over 200 working examples 2014-06-23T01:09:13Z |3b| also tends to keep a "low-level" api available as well, so sometimes when the 'nice' api isn't fast enough, ugly code can be written in the specific places where it matters for extra speed, while prototyping and general code are still easy 2014-06-23T01:09:39Z joe-w-bimedina: what do you ,mean by api...a c api 2014-06-23T01:09:41Z joe-w-bimedina: ? 2014-06-23T01:09:56Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-23T01:09:57Z |3b|: "application programming interface" 2014-06-23T01:10:14Z |3b|: set of functions, types, etc that are the interface to your library 2014-06-23T01:10:29Z joe-w-bimedina: like my c wrappers? 2014-06-23T01:10:41Z joe-w-bimedina: or like c interop stuff? 2014-06-23T01:10:45Z |3b|: your C wrappers provide a C APi for opencv 2014-06-23T01:10:54Z |3b|: opencv has a c++ api 2014-06-23T01:11:06Z |3b|: your lisp code will presumably provide an API for lisp code to use 2014-06-23T01:11:08Z ehaliewicz joined #lisp 2014-06-23T01:11:47Z |3b|: ideally, that API would be easy to use from lisp, and look like lisp code, rather than looking like a C or C++ api and requiring lots of C/C++ style boilerplate code 2014-06-23T01:12:54Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-23T01:13:20Z |3b|: it should hide allocation of C/C++ data structures as much as possible, translate them to/from normal lisp data structures (or at least something resembling them as much as possible) 2014-06-23T01:13:56Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-23T01:14:22Z joe-w-bimedina: even if I have to throw alot of money at it I will make this the best library possible, ...yea, I really like my design so far, save for the errors, I do notice c++ strengths I like to import to Lisp ....do you have a link that would get me started on the last post you made? 2014-06-23T01:14:50Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-23T01:14:53Z |3b|: out of curiosity, what is your budget? 2014-06-23T01:15:05Z joe-w-bimedina: do you want a job? 2014-06-23T01:16:10Z |3b| wants to rewrite the whole thing every time i look at that code 2014-06-23T01:16:13Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-06-23T01:16:52Z shridhar quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-23T01:17:03Z |3b| would at least consider a job 2014-06-23T01:18:09Z jdtcooki` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-23T01:18:18Z joe-w-bimedina: I do pc repairs for 40$ a pop and throw the money at this when I can ideally, I just payed off some debts so that can be more of a reality now...I have an extra $50 now what is your hourly, maybe you could help me with ideas in a session and I could then rewrite in the off time 2014-06-23T01:18:56Z stassats: i'd invest the time in a book, like PAIP or PCL 2014-06-23T01:19:16Z |3b|: hmm, sounds like it probably wouldn't be enough to be worth the effort for now :( 2014-06-23T01:19:36Z |3b|: unless you repair a /lot/ of PCs :p 2014-06-23T01:20:11Z joe-w-bimedina: what is your hourly, wouldn't mind getting you for an hour to design a fix for the keypoint thing 2014-06-23T01:20:31Z joe-w-bimedina: give something to grow on 2014-06-23T01:20:37Z joe-w-bimedina: give me 2014-06-23T01:20:43Z |3b| doesn't really have concrete 'ideas', more just experience... i can see that lots of stuff needs rewritten, but not sure i'd be able to explain it faster than just doing it, and it would take a while to do :/ 2014-06-23T01:22:13Z RenRenJuan: so in this case ur grasp defines ur reach 2014-06-23T01:22:25Z shridhar joined #lisp 2014-06-23T01:22:29Z joe-w-bimedina: if you just designed the vector thing, that wouldn't take too long, then I could update all my vector stuff, that is where i'm getting all my errors 2014-06-23T01:22:50Z joe-w-bimedina: then use that knowledge to update other stuff 2014-06-23T01:23:19Z |3b| will think about it tomorrow, getting late for me today 2014-06-23T01:24:36Z joe-w-bimedina: great thank you for even the possibility, gotta get money into paypal anyway might take a couple days, I'll make sure you get an author credit 2014-06-23T01:24:37Z joe-w-bimedina: :) 2014-06-23T01:26:04Z Vivitron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-23T01:29:17Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-23T01:30:02Z dsturnbull quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-23T01:31:39Z ehaliewicz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T01:31:55Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-23T01:40:48Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-23T01:41:07Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-06-23T01:42:26Z harish_ joined #lisp 2014-06-23T01:43:54Z Guest351O2 joined #lisp 2014-06-23T01:45:58Z yuikov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T01:48:33Z arigoins joined #lisp 2014-06-23T01:49:32Z yuikov joined #lisp 2014-06-23T01:49:41Z yuikov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T01:50:57Z Sgeo quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2014-06-23T01:51:33Z Sgeo joined #lisp 2014-06-23T01:51:44Z Guest351O2 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-23T01:55:05Z optikalmouse quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-23T01:55:31Z optikalmouse joined #lisp 2014-06-23T01:56:13Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-06-23T01:56:53Z varjag_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-06-23T02:06:20Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: not enough memory to display the error message) 2014-06-23T02:08:04Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-23T02:09:22Z heddwch joined #lisp 2014-06-23T02:10:14Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2014-06-23T02:12:57Z stardiviner is now known as 77CAAHKNM 2014-06-23T02:12:57Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2014-06-23T02:12:57Z stardiviner quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-23T02:17:49Z joe-w-bimedina quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2014-06-23T02:18:39Z inklesspen joined #lisp 2014-06-23T02:21:04Z inklesspen: in many languages, I'd use sqlite as an application file format. For example, Python ships with a sqlite module which has the library compiled into it. But that seems to be a little more complicated in common lisp; you have to separately install the library and then configure clsql with the path to the c library. 2014-06-23T02:21:32Z inklesspen: is there anything you can recommend for a zero-dependencies file format? 2014-06-23T02:22:01Z stassats: print/read 2014-06-23T02:22:28Z inklesspen: sure, but you have to separately implement file locking and so on yourself with that approach, right? 2014-06-23T02:22:38Z inklesspen: I'm looking for something a bit more turnkey. 2014-06-23T02:23:02Z pjb: clisp has various database modules. 2014-06-23T02:24:02Z inklesspen: i've been looking at them. (specifically the listing at http://www.cliki.net/database) most of them seem to require c libraries. 2014-06-23T02:24:10Z pjb: clisp has various database modules. 2014-06-23T02:24:30Z pjb: Try to use sqlite in python without /usr/lib/sqlite.so 2014-06-23T02:24:42Z pjb: /usr/lib/libsqlite.so 2014-06-23T02:25:54Z pjb: python has distributors. You need to be your own distributor with lisp, because distributors are bad at distributing lisp. 2014-06-23T02:28:17Z inklesspen: that's fair. but with python's sqlite library, i don't have to actually know the path to the library. because, again, that's been taken care of me by the system. 2014-06-23T02:28:44Z inklesspen: i'm building something i intend to release as a binary you can copy onto your linux machine and run. 2014-06-23T02:28:46Z pjb: No, not by the system. By the distributor. 2014-06-23T02:29:01Z pjb: It's the distributor who hardcodes (by way of configure options mostly) the paths. 2014-06-23T02:29:28Z pjb: You cannot hardcode paths for an executable to run on different distributions. 2014-06-23T02:29:38Z inklesspen: sure, but linux has LD_LIBRARY_PATH 2014-06-23T02:29:48Z pjb: Users don't set it. 2014-06-23T02:30:16Z inklesspen: some users do. but if you run linux, your distribution has managed that for you. 2014-06-23T02:30:54Z inklesspen: you need to understand: i don't care whether it was Third Party A or Third Party B who made me not have to care about which path the library is on. I just care that I don't have to care which path the library is on. 2014-06-23T02:31:27Z pjb: Then introduce Third Party C = inklesspen, and have Third Party C configure things for you! 2014-06-23T02:32:20Z inklesspen: do you hate new people using Lisp, or do you just enjoy deliberately missing the point? 2014-06-23T02:32:39Z inklesspen: I am looking for a good high-level pure-Lisp solution to the "save application data in a file or directory" problem 2014-06-23T02:32:48Z nightfly: print 2014-06-23T02:33:08Z echo-area joined #lisp 2014-06-23T02:33:22Z pjb: (setf (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:sexp-file-contents "~/.config/app-data.sexp") '(your app data)) 2014-06-23T02:33:24Z pjb: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:sexp-file-contents "~/.config/app-data.sexp") 2014-06-23T02:33:43Z Xach: pjb is a dork. feel free to ignore the "advice" unless it is palpably useful. 2014-06-23T02:33:56Z pjb: And Xach is a cretin! 2014-06-23T02:34:01Z inklesspen: Elephant looks nice, but from what i can tell it requires either an external Postgres server or external C library installation. 2014-06-23T02:34:23Z stassats: there's cl-store, if you outgrow print/read 2014-06-23T02:34:48Z inklesspen: pjb: what about locking? transactions? any sort of error handling? 2014-06-23T02:34:50Z Xach: inklesspen: there is nothing like what you want that works using only standard functionality. some of the needed primitive bits might be built into the implementation you choose, though. 2014-06-23T02:34:53Z stassats: elephant doesn't seem to be moving anywhere 2014-06-23T02:35:00Z pjb: inklesspen: nope. 2014-06-23T02:35:27Z Xach: inklesspen: there's nothing you can just use that is already made. 2014-06-23T02:35:47Z inklesspen: Xach: why is this? is this truly an unusual thing to ask? 2014-06-23T02:35:52Z pjb: or you can configure the path tothe libsqlite3.so and use sqlite. 2014-06-23T02:36:09Z DataLinkDroid: "save application data in file or directory" does not indicate muti-user, multi-session ACID compliant relational database. That would be overkill, right? 2014-06-23T02:36:10Z Xach: inklesspen: nobody has done the work to make it yet. 2014-06-23T02:36:13Z stassats: inklesspen: it is a bit unusual indeed 2014-06-23T02:36:34Z inklesspen: DataLinkDroid: well, sqlite3 may be overkill for an application file format, but it works very well. :P 2014-06-23T02:36:45Z stassats: until it doesn't 2014-06-23T02:37:02Z Xach: inklesspen: with fewer people making and sharing stuff, the odds are lower that you will find someone else has had the same need and done & shared a solution already. 2014-06-23T02:37:10Z inklesspen: stassats: how does the average common lisp application approach problems of configuration data and saving/loading data? 2014-06-23T02:37:12Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T02:37:17Z zwer_y joined #lisp 2014-06-23T02:37:21Z Xach: I use print & read a lot of the time. 2014-06-23T02:37:28Z pjb: ie. it's not a problem. 2014-06-23T02:37:45Z stassats: inklesspen: there are not enough cl "applications" to have an average 2014-06-23T02:38:29Z pjb: Furthermore, lisp applications are often configured as a lisp system, just by loading a lisp file. 2014-06-23T02:38:47Z pjb: (load #P"~/.config/myapp.lisp") 2014-06-23T02:39:19Z pjb: Well, (load (merge-pathnames "./.config/myapp.lisp" (user-homedir-pathname))) rather. 2014-06-23T02:47:36Z pyotrgalois joined #lisp 2014-06-23T02:49:46Z Vivitron joined #lisp 2014-06-23T02:51:50Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T02:52:14Z forgottenone joined #lisp 2014-06-23T02:53:38Z DataLinkDroid quit (Quit: Disconnecting -- bye) 2014-06-23T02:54:07Z arigoins quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-23T02:54:10Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-23T02:55:56Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-06-23T02:58:09Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-23T02:58:42Z MjrTom quit (Quit: Planet Earth is blue, and there's nothing I can do) 2014-06-23T03:02:05Z otwieracz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 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The frequent quits and rejoins and nick changes are pretty annoying. 2014-06-23T11:56:40Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T11:56:48Z rstandy joined #lisp 2014-06-23T11:57:19Z doomlord_1: well i have a linux box aswell which doesn't seem to do this, perhaps i'll close some of my permantly watched channels. 2014-06-23T11:57:32Z doomlord_1 left #lisp 2014-06-23T11:58:16Z brucem: doomlord_1 could get a bouncer or a bouncer service. 2014-06-23T11:58:20Z brucem: I'd tell him, but ... 2014-06-23T11:59:22Z mikaelj quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-23T11:59:24Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-23T11:59:32Z ggole joined #lisp 2014-06-23T12:03:30Z karupa is now known as zz_karupa 2014-06-23T12:03:57Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-23T12:09:29Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-06-23T12:16:01Z attila_lendvai1 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-23T12:18:43Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-23T12:20:40Z xyjprc joined #lisp 2014-06-23T12:21:24Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-23T12:22:23Z jewel joined #lisp 2014-06-23T12:23:13Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-23T12:28:05Z rstandy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T12:28:26Z rstandy joined #lisp 2014-06-23T12:28:27Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-06-23T12:32:56Z manfoo7 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-23T12:34:31Z Black0range joined #lisp 2014-06-23T12:34:46Z nipra quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-23T12:35:04Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-23T12:37:36Z Black0range: Hey guys, I've never tried common lisp before but I've done a lot of scheme. I decided to try it out. I'm kind of confused why (defvar test (lambda (n) (+ n 1))) (test 5) is invalid? 2014-06-23T12:38:17Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2014-06-23T12:38:18Z cpc26 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T12:38:35Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2014-06-23T12:38:44Z Xach: That is one of the many ways common lisp differs from scheme. 2014-06-23T12:39:02Z jdtcookie joined #lisp 2014-06-23T12:39:17Z splittist: BlackOrange: here is a long answer http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html 2014-06-23T12:39:43Z Xach: The evaluation rules of common lisp do not look for a variable in that position for evaluating to a function object. 2014-06-23T12:40:25Z Xach: If you want to call a function when you have a variable that refers to it, you can use funcall. or, like in scheme, apply. 2014-06-23T12:42:21Z Black0range: I see, thanks for the answer! :) 2014-06-23T12:43:38Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-23T12:43:54Z Black0range: I know this is a really bad question. But i kind of have nothing to go on. I'm currently reading "Land of lisp" and it recommends clisp. However since some time has passed. What common lisp would you recommend for general purpose? 2014-06-23T12:44:21Z Zhivago: clisp is fine for getting started. 2014-06-23T12:44:27Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-23T12:44:36Z Zhivago: sbcl is a more heavy duty solution. 2014-06-23T12:44:42Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-23T12:44:56Z juanlas joined #lisp 2014-06-23T12:45:39Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-06-23T12:46:52Z Xach: Black0range: the most popular common lisp is SBCL. Clozure CL is next, followed by CLISP. 2014-06-23T12:47:17Z Xach: clisp is currently not very maintained. I often have a hard time getting it to build and software is not as tested on clisp as it is on sbcl or clozure cl. 2014-06-23T12:48:03Z Xach: luis: almost time for slime 2.8? 2014-06-23T12:50:04Z Black0range: Thanks for the responses :) 2014-06-23T12:50:21Z jdtcookie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T12:51:31Z sroy joined #lisp 2014-06-23T12:53:13Z rlazoti joined #lisp 2014-06-23T12:57:33Z rlazoti quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-23T13:00:02Z jdtcookie joined #lisp 2014-06-23T13:00:34Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-23T13:00:38Z rlazoti joined #lisp 2014-06-23T13:01:19Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-23T13:05:47Z fortitude joined #lisp 2014-06-23T13:11:04Z Guest351O2 joined #lisp 2014-06-23T13:14:04Z xach quit (Input/output error) 2014-06-23T13:21:23Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T13:21:37Z pranavrc quit 2014-06-23T13:22:30Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-06-23T13:22:42Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-23T13:26:28Z 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answers (due to implementation specific super classes), should've speced it 2014-06-23T14:39:23Z Shinmera: I always look at this for the hierarchy http://sellout.github.io/2012/03/03/common-lisp-type-hierarchy/ 2014-06-23T14:42:26Z cmack joined #lisp 2014-06-23T14:43:43Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-23T14:44:37Z lduros joined #lisp 2014-06-23T14:48:26Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-23T14:50:04Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-23T14:52:05Z Black0range quit 2014-06-23T14:54:34Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-06-23T14:54:57Z drmeiste_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T14:55:00Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-23T14:55:37Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-23T14:56:47Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-23T14:57:23Z harish joined #lisp 2014-06-23T15:02:10Z White_Flame quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T15:08:17Z Alfr joined #lisp 2014-06-23T15:09:43Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-06-23T15:13:32Z zwer_y is now known as zwer 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javascript I take 2014-06-23T15:43:38Z mcsmash quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-23T15:43:57Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-23T15:44:03Z sellout: puchacz: Correct – or use a query parameter instead. 2014-06-23T15:44:15Z puchacz: thanks 2014-06-23T15:44:35Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-23T15:45:49Z tkhoa2711 quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-23T15:46:18Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-23T15:46:24Z tkhoa2711 quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-23T15:47:59Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-06-23T15:48:27Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2014-06-23T15:48:27Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-06-23T15:48:57Z xenophon joined #lisp 2014-06-23T15:49:24Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-23T15:50:27Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-23T15:50:27Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-06-23T15:50:27Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-23T15:50:47Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2014-06-23T15:51:27Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-23T15:51:39Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-06-23T15:52:04Z 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(Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-23T16:09:42Z |3b| would just write it in CL to start with though 2014-06-23T16:09:55Z Sir_herrbatka: |3b|: i know CL poorly, in fact i want to learn it badly 2014-06-23T16:09:58Z Zhivago: sir: If you're worried about that, consider ECL, which compiles CL to C. 2014-06-23T16:10:16Z Sir_herrbatka: that's the reason behind making that game 2014-06-23T16:10:22Z Sir_herrbatka: i need practice 2014-06-23T16:10:23Z |3b|: might also ask on #lispgames, people there do that sort of thing 2014-06-23T16:10:29Z Sir_herrbatka: and game coding is fun 2014-06-23T16:10:35Z |3b|: if you want to practice CL, not using CL sounds counterproductive :) 2014-06-23T16:10:51Z Sir_herrbatka: nah, i want to simply put things on screen with c 2014-06-23T16:10:55Z Sir_herrbatka: the rest would be in lisp 2014-06-23T16:11:10Z eudoxia: there are already SDL bindings for CL 2014-06-23T16:11:20Z eudoxia: it wouldn't be a performance hit to draw on the screen from CL 2014-06-23T16:11:37Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-23T16:11:39Z Sir_herrbatka: it is not the performance which concerns me 2014-06-23T16:12:07Z Sir_herrbatka: i just want to minimize C/Lisp contact 2014-06-23T16:12:09Z |3b|: talking to C code from CL is a relatively advanced topic, so seems like it would be better to avoid that 2014-06-23T16:12:25Z Zhivago: Sir: Look at ECL. 2014-06-23T16:12:32Z eudoxia: well, using an SDL binding would minimize it to zero 2014-06-23T16:12:36Z |3b|: so better to use existing wrappers for SDL, than needing to make your own wrappers for your C code 2014-06-23T16:12:38Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2014-06-23T16:12:38Z attila_lendvai quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-23T16:12:39Z attila_lendvai1 quit (Changing host) 2014-06-23T16:12:39Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2014-06-23T16:12:39Z eudoxia: oh wait i get what you mean 2014-06-23T16:12:49Z Zhivago: Sir: Then you can also see the C code that the CL compiler generates. :) 2014-06-23T16:13:33Z eudoxia: i would suggest writing the rendering parts in CL, and maybe, if necessary, port those to C once the API is more or less stable and write a few functions to call that C code from CL 2014-06-23T16:13:33Z |3b|: also avoids needing to deal with figuring out how to build/link/etc the C code in a way that works with your lisp implementations 2014-06-23T16:13:36Z Sir_herrbatka: Zhivago: i initially wandet to bind C code to the lisp, than the other way around 2014-06-23T16:14:09Z Ralt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-23T16:14:15Z Sir_herrbatka: ok, i see 2014-06-23T16:14:36Z Sir_herrbatka: maybe i will check those lisp sdl bindings 2014-06-23T16:15:27Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-23T16:17:32Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-06-23T16:17:53Z dboswell joined #lisp 2014-06-23T16:18:08Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-23T16:18:21Z nicdev quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T16:18:42Z BitPuffin quit (Ping 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2014-06-23T18:26:34Z prxq: jasom: what are you parallelizing? 2014-06-23T18:26:36Z raschwell quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-23T18:26:43Z ovidnis quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-23T18:26:52Z ovidnis joined #lisp 2014-06-23T18:26:52Z TDog_ joined #lisp 2014-06-23T18:27:02Z stassats: it isn't especially easy to write something parallel in the first place either 2014-06-23T18:27:37Z prxq: well, it depends. 2014-06-23T18:28:08Z prxq: stassats: but mostly, you are right 2014-06-23T18:28:32Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-23T18:29:16Z bocaneri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T18:29:37Z jasom: prxq: in this case, a build system 2014-06-23T18:29:47Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-23T18:30:02Z TDog_ is now known as TDog 2014-06-23T18:30:34Z jasom: prxq: I finally got it working, but I need a faster system for doing locks. Right now I use lockfiles and spinwait; I could use inotify, but that would make it linux only. 2014-06-23T18:31:28Z monod joined #lisp 2014-06-23T18:32:22Z orthecreedence joined #lisp 2014-06-23T18:32:52Z raschwell joined #lisp 2014-06-23T18:32:57Z ovidnis quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-23T18:33:03Z ovidnis joined #lisp 2014-06-23T18:34:21Z TDog_ joined #lisp 2014-06-23T18:34:21Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-23T18:35:14Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-23T18:36:00Z jasom: It's way faster at 3 or more cores, but about 2x slower at one core than when I started 2014-06-23T18:36:02Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-23T18:36:03Z TDog_ is now known as TDog 2014-06-23T18:36:13Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-23T18:36:24Z jasom: though to be fair, I'm using the test-suite as a benchmark, and most of the tests are to exercise the lock system 2014-06-23T18:36:44Z jasom: so this is kind of a worst-case benchmark 2014-06-23T18:36:49Z Soft joined #lisp 2014-06-23T18:37:38Z raschwell quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-23T18:38:27Z ovidnis quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-23T18:38:36Z ovidnis joined #lisp 2014-06-23T18:39:26Z hitecnologys: Oh, you've reminded me of a question I once had. Nor ASDF nor SBCL nor related to it doesn't support multi-core compilation out of the box, right? 2014-06-23T18:40:00Z stassats: yes 2014-06-23T18:40:35Z jasom: I think asdf just incorporated an extension for that? 2014-06-23T18:40:56Z stassats: there's poiu 2014-06-23T18:41:03Z hitecnologys: stassats: I see. Does that makes SBCL entirely single-cored (if we ignore the fact tat you can fork threads)? 2014-06-23T18:41:13Z hitecnologys: s/tat/that/ 2014-06-23T18:41:30Z jasom: stassats: I thought I saw on asdf.devel that some poiu inspired features are in the next release 2014-06-23T18:41:39Z stassats: hitecnologys: i'm not sure i can understand that question 2014-06-23T18:41:41Z jasom: hitecnologys: it's complicated 2014-06-23T18:41:49Z jasom: hitecnologys: if you connect with slime, then it will create threads 2014-06-23T18:42:20Z jasom: ccl always spawns a helper thread 2014-06-23T18:42:47Z jasom: xcvb supports parallel builds to, IIRC 2014-06-23T18:42:48Z hitecnologys: stassats: I guess I wan't clear enough. Is the only multi-threading feature in SBCL is the possibility to spawn new custom threads? 2014-06-23T18:43:13Z jasom: hitecnologys: yes, but there's lots of libraries built on top of that. 2014-06-23T18:43:14Z hitecnologys: Damn it. s/wan't/wasn't/. What the hell is happening to me? 2014-06-23T18:43:25Z hitecnologys: jasom: I see. 2014-06-23T18:43:28Z stassats: what other multi-threading features do you have in mind? 2014-06-23T18:43:46Z hitecnologys: Parallel compilation was one of them. 2014-06-23T18:44:04Z jasom: hitecnologys: you can spawn threads (or fork processes) to do compilation; poiu does that 2014-06-23T18:44:06Z hitecnologys: Besides that, nothing particular. 2014-06-23T18:44:22Z stassats: you can compile in parallel, you just won't get a speed up 2014-06-23T18:44:22Z jasom: hitecnologys: there is ChanL which provides CSP style channels 2014-06-23T18:44:58Z hitecnologys: jasom: I've played with many similar stuff including ChanL. 2014-06-23T18:45:02Z j_king joined #lisp 2014-06-23T18:45:14Z hitecnologys: stassats: why not? 2014-06-23T18:45:32Z stassats: "because" 2014-06-23T18:46:09Z hitecnologys: Architecture of SBCL? 2014-06-23T18:46:54Z jasom: hitecnologys: anyways, if you want parallel compilation, just do this: http://www.cliki.net/poiu 2014-06-23T18:47:42Z hitecnologys: jasom: I don't really want it, just asking. 2014-06-23T18:47:59Z hitecnologys: Anyway, stassats and jasom, thanks for explanation. 2014-06-23T18:49:11Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-23T18:49:44Z jasom: Hmm, is there a library that implements IPC semaphores (e.g. wrap posix semaphores on *nix) 2014-06-23T18:50:01Z jasom: and one that works on both ccl and sbcl 2014-06-23T18:50:25Z hitecnologys: bordeaux-threads? 2014-06-23T18:50:36Z jasom: hitecnologys: not IPC 2014-06-23T18:50:52Z hitecnologys: jasom: ah, I see. 2014-06-23T18:50:52Z stassats: lfarm 2014-06-23T18:50:58Z jasom: hitecnologys: I care about inter-process locking 2014-06-23T18:51:40Z jasom: stassats: I just googled that and am impressed if it does what it says 2014-06-23T18:51:58Z jasom: I assume I can use local-processes exclusively rather than remote? 2014-06-23T18:52:14Z hitecnologys: Woah, looks nice. 2014-06-23T18:53:21Z avery quit (Quit: avery) 2014-06-23T18:54:57Z Shinmera: stassats: Quick question: How would I go about calling a global space Qt method like qAlpha? (#_QGlobalSpace::qAlpha val) throws me a "no applicable method" condition. 2014-06-23T18:56:42Z jasom: stassats: though I still can't tell if I can have two lisp processes started independently with a shared lock 2014-06-23T18:57:31Z jasom: or more generally N lisp processes where N is potentially very large 2014-06-23T18:58:11Z jasom: hmm, I suppose I could do all the work in the server, and just have the N processes be clients that request work to be done 2014-06-23T18:58:15Z jasom: that would be fairly doable 2014-06-23T18:59:58Z yano joined #lisp 2014-06-23T19:03:32Z sz0 joined #lisp 2014-06-23T19:06:12Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-06-23T19:07:51Z stassats: Shinmera: you can't, apparently 2014-06-23T19:07:56Z Shinmera: stassats: welp! 2014-06-23T19:08:52Z Shinmera: stassats: is it a smoke problem or do you have any clue what might cause that? 2014-06-23T19:08:59Z stassats: no clue 2014-06-23T19:09:02Z Shinmera: alright 2014-06-23T19:09:11Z stassats: work around it somehow 2014-06-23T19:09:21Z Shinmera: It's no biggie in this case, but it would've been nice. 2014-06-23T19:10:02Z stassats: something like (ldb (byte 8 24) rgb) 2014-06-23T19:11:29Z Shinmera: Yeah that works nicely, thanks 2014-06-23T19:11:30Z stassats: it'll be faster too 2014-06-23T19:11:41Z stassats: if you declare rgb as ub32 2014-06-23T19:13:19Z wz1000 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-23T19:13:21Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2014-06-23T19:16:50Z REPLeffect quit (Quit: bye) 2014-06-23T19:17:09Z Puffin joined #lisp 2014-06-23T19:19:05Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-23T19:19:48Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2014-06-23T19:20:38Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-23T19:21:54Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-23T19:26:03Z ndrei quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T19:26:49Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-06-23T19:28:00Z nicdev: Xach: I use Slime in Quicklisp, how to update to get around the for nIndex := 1 to 15 do begin 2014-06-23T19:28:00Z nicdev: FNumOfLossControls[nIndex].Enabled := False; 2014-06-23T19:28:00Z nicdev: end; 2014-06-23T19:28:22Z stassats: that's pascal? 2014-06-23T19:28:28Z stassats: what is pascal doing in #lisp? 2014-06-23T19:28:30Z nicdev: wrong paste, 2014-06-23T19:28:56Z nicdev: meant the error with CODE-TRACE-TABLE-OFFSET-SLOT 2014-06-23T19:28:59Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-23T19:29:52Z stassats: if you are using sbcl from git, then you can use slime from git too 2014-06-23T19:30:08Z nicdev: ok, will do that then 2014-06-23T19:31:26Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-23T19:34:38Z TDog_ joined #lisp 2014-06-23T19:35:16Z TDog quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-23T19:35:50Z TDog_ is now known as TDog 2014-06-23T19:35:59Z c74d3 is now known as c74d 2014-06-23T19:38:14Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-23T19:39:19Z boogie quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2014-06-23T19:39:32Z boogie joined #lisp 2014-06-23T19:42:10Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-06-23T19:45:56Z noncom quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-06-23T19:46:21Z therik quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-23T19:46:27Z nicdev left #lisp 2014-06-23T19:47:45Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-23T19:48:03Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2014-06-23T19:51:06Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-23T19:52:24Z atgreen` joined #lisp 2014-06-23T19:52:31Z Xach: stassats: giving useless but factual answers to practical questions 2014-06-23T19:53:36Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-23T19:54:22Z stassats: hah 2014-06-23T19:55:30Z seangrov` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-23T19:55:54Z nicdev joined #lisp 2014-06-23T19:59:35Z nug700 joined #lisp 2014-06-23T19:59:47Z REPLeffect joined #lisp 2014-06-23T20:01:09Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-23T20:02:06Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-23T20:02:28Z theos joined #lisp 2014-06-23T20:05:10Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-23T20:05:22Z forgottenone quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-23T20:05:34Z _leb joined #lisp 2014-06-23T20:05:42Z atgreen`` joined #lisp 2014-06-23T20:06:36Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-23T20:08:21Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2014-06-23T20:08:42Z atgreen` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-23T20:08:52Z AdmiralBumbleBee joined #lisp 2014-06-23T20:10:40Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-23T20:11:03Z Longlius quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-23T20:15:47Z Xach: What should I use for oauth needs? Is cl-oauth baked enough? 2014-06-23T20:16:26Z foreignFunction quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-23T20:16:36Z atgreen`` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-23T20:17:23Z RenRenJuan joined #lisp 2014-06-23T20:18:37Z sykopomp joined #lisp 2014-06-23T20:18:49Z Shinmera: I had some trouble understanding how the hell to use it and it looked real wonky last time I used it, but it should work. 2014-06-23T20:19:05Z Shinmera: chirp's oauth should be more comprehensible 2014-06-23T20:19:16Z _leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-23T20:19:19Z Shinmera: though it's tailored to twitter obviously 2014-06-23T20:19:50Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-23T20:20:01Z sroy quit (Quit: Quitte) 2014-06-23T20:20:08Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T20:20:40Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-06-23T20:21:40Z Sir_herrbatka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-23T20:22:09Z AdmiralBumbleBee quit (Quit: AdmiralBumbleBee) 2014-06-23T20:23:07Z Shinmera: Not sure how difficult it would be to adapt that to other sites. 2014-06-23T20:25:50Z Xach: thanks 2014-06-23T20:26:45Z Shinmera: I'm now feeling a bit bad that I decided against writing a capsulated oauth library for chirp... maybe I'll put up the effort to split it off some other time. 2014-06-23T20:27:07Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T20:27:41Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-06-23T20:28:45Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-23T20:28:48Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T20:30:35Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-06-23T20:31:39Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-23T20:39:21Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-23T20:40:56Z pillton quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-23T20:40:56Z cibs quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-23T20:40:56Z tali713 quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-23T20:40:56Z zz_karupa quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-23T20:41:15Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 2014-06-23T20:42:50Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T20:43:59Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2014-06-23T20:45:44Z juanlas joined #lisp 2014-06-23T20:46:26Z _leb joined #lisp 2014-06-23T20:49:15Z lduros quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T20:50:44Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-06-23T20:51:28Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-23T20:51:43Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-06-23T20:52:57Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-23T20:54:27Z oleo is now known as Guest37860 2014-06-23T20:56:00Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2014-06-23T20:56:19Z mhd joined #lisp 2014-06-23T20:57:53Z Guest37860 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-23T21:00:48Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T21:00:56Z ogamita joined #lisp 2014-06-23T21:01:02Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2014-06-23T21:01:13Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-06-23T21:03:00Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T21:04:12Z cibs joined #lisp 2014-06-23T21:04:12Z zz_karupa joined #lisp 2014-06-23T21:04:12Z tali713 joined #lisp 2014-06-23T21:04:33Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T21:05:37Z dbushenko quit (Quit: Ухожу я от вас (xchat 2.4.5 или старше)) 2014-06-23T21:05:50Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-23T21:06:35Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-23T21:06:53Z ggole quit 2014-06-23T21:07:08Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-23T21:07:23Z rstandy quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-23T21:09:26Z zickzackv joined #lisp 2014-06-23T21:09:48Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-06-23T21:09:50Z drewc joined #lisp 2014-06-23T21:10:06Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-23T21:10:48Z madalu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T21:11:52Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-23T21:13:45Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T21:13:54Z dandersen joined #lisp 2014-06-23T21:14:27Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-06-23T21:14:36Z Denommus quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-23T21:16:49Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-23T21:18:39Z jchochli_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T21:19:37Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-23T21:19:39Z monod quit (Quit: Quit) 2014-06-23T21:22:41Z _leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-23T21:26:05Z wheelsucker quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T21:26:42Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2014-06-23T21:28:12Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-23T21:28:31Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-23T21:31:19Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-23T21:31:20Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-06-23T21:31:20Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-23T21:31:23Z leoc quit (Quit: _) 2014-06-23T21:31:52Z sytse quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-23T21:35:47Z Guest351O2 joined #lisp 2014-06-23T21:37:02Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-23T21:37:38Z kcj quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-23T21:38:47Z jasom: Any suggestions for serializing arbitrary lisp data? cl-store is the only one I've used before. 2014-06-23T21:38:49Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-23T21:39:43Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2014-06-23T21:41:37Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-23T21:42:04Z Puffin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-23T21:42:42Z Puffin joined #lisp 2014-06-23T21:43:07Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-23T21:43:12Z Xach: i like cl-store 2014-06-23T21:46:36Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-23T21:48:23Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-23T21:49:18Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-23T21:49:41Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-23T21:53:33Z Vivitron quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-23T21:54:28Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-06-23T21:58:25Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-23T21:58:33Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-23T21:58:35Z Sgeo joined #lisp 2014-06-23T22:00:06Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-23T22:02:19Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T22:02:53Z eni_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-23T22:05:30Z yuikov joined #lisp 2014-06-23T22:07:38Z yuikov quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-06-23T22:09:55Z aksr quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-23T22:10:42Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-23T22:11:16Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-23T22:11:33Z jebes joined #lisp 2014-06-23T22:12:42Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-23T22:16:32Z Guest351O2 quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-23T22:16:53Z dandersen is now known as dkcl 2014-06-23T22:17:54Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-06-23T22:19:37Z segv- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-23T22:20:37Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-23T22:23:00Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-23T22:23:07Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 2014-06-23T22:24:20Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-23T22:25:48Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-23T22:27:18Z Shinmera quit (Quit: ZzZz) 2014-06-23T22:28:33Z attila_lendvai quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-23T22:28:33Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2014-06-23T22:28:33Z attila_lendvai1 quit (Changing host) 2014-06-23T22:28:33Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2014-06-23T22:29:06Z leb joined #lisp 2014-06-23T22:29:29Z dkcl quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-23T22:31:14Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-23T22:31:15Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-06-23T22:31:15Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-23T22:32:14Z pillton joined #lisp 2014-06-23T22:33:25Z attila_lendvai1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-23T22:35:36Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-06-23T22:35:40Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2014-06-23T22:35:40Z attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 2014-06-23T22:35:40Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-06-23T22:35:40Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-23T22:36:10Z jasom: Is there an idiomatic way to take a simple-vector of length N and make a larger simple-vector whose first N elements are the same of the old vector? 2014-06-23T22:36:33Z Bicyclidine: make-array followed by replace, i think 2014-06-23T22:36:46Z drmeist__ joined #lisp 2014-06-23T22:36:59Z jasom: (if sbcl's non simple-vectors weren't so slow, this would be a non-issue) 2014-06-23T22:38:03Z jasom: Of course if they aren't slow anymore, let me know. Last time I tried it, a struct that had a fill-index plus a (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*)) was significantly faster than using a fill-pointer, for example. 2014-06-23T22:38:29Z jebes: in arrays there is the :initial-content keyword arg, but I don't really mess with many data structs in sbcl... 2014-06-23T22:38:49Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-23T22:39:21Z jasom: Bicyclidine: that makes sense 2014-06-23T22:39:43Z Bicyclidine: i think replace is pretty usual, i mean, it's how sbcl implements initial-contents even, i'm pretty sure 2014-06-23T22:43:57Z FracV quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T22:44:39Z fortitude quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-23T22:46:09Z matko joined #lisp 2014-06-23T22:49:58Z drmeist__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-23T22:52:24Z seangrov` joined #lisp 2014-06-23T22:54:24Z pjb joined #lisp 2014-06-23T22:54:48Z pjb is now known as Guest18266 2014-06-23T22:55:28Z Guest18266 is now known as pjb` 2014-06-23T22:55:37Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-23T22:55:42Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2014-06-23T22:55:59Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2014-06-23T22:56:00Z attila_lendvai quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-23T22:56:00Z attila_lendvai1 quit (Changing host) 2014-06-23T22:56:00Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2014-06-23T22:56:29Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-06-23T22:56:50Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2014-06-23T22:57:38Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-23T22:59:30Z segmond joined #lisp 2014-06-23T23:00:39Z ustunozgur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T23:00:58Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T23:01:10Z sz0 quit 2014-06-23T23:01:19Z attila_lendvai1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-23T23:01:20Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-23T23:01:21Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-06-23T23:01:21Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-23T23:01:37Z attila_lendvai quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-23T23:02:29Z leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-23T23:02:31Z Guest351O2 joined #lisp 2014-06-23T23:02:54Z jasom: So I just accidentally wrote a web-server. 2014-06-23T23:05:38Z jasom: what stassats said made me think of writing an lparallel job-server that receives requests via basic-binary-ipc; basic-binary-ipc doesn't provide a serialization format, so I made that part pluggable. Then I realized that if I made the incoming deserialization HTTP Requests and the outgoing serialization HTTP responses then it's an event-driven webserver (with broken pipelining report, since by design this server can return results out-of-order) 2014-06-23T23:05:44Z jasom: s/report/support 2014-06-23T23:06:21Z _leb joined #lisp 2014-06-23T23:06:23Z rplaca` joined #lisp 2014-06-23T23:07:09Z davazp joined #lisp 2014-06-23T23:07:45Z pjb: jasom: actually, while http seems to be specified as a synchronous protocol, servers and browsers work asynchronously, so it should not be a problem. 2014-06-23T23:07:50Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-23T23:07:52Z jasom: It's not a useful web-server, since it can be trivially DoSed (e.g. send 1M tiny requests, and then use a custom TCP implementation to keep the respone connection slow) 2014-06-23T23:08:32Z jasom: pjb: HTTP defines pipelining which allows a client to send several requests, which must be responded to in-order (though the server is allowed to not even read from the socket until it's finished the first request) 2014-06-23T23:08:48Z jasom: opera actually implements pipelining, and I think had it enabled in some versions. 2014-06-23T23:09:14Z orthecreedence: didn't know that 2014-06-23T23:09:16Z jasom: no other clients do it though, AFAICT. The real webserver that I maintain is actually completely broken for the pipelining case and nobody has noticed other than me 2014-06-23T23:09:22Z orthecreedence: guess i have some work to do in wookie 2014-06-23T23:09:29Z pjb: You may want to test it. It's probable that out of order wouldn't be a problem for most browser. 2014-06-23T23:09:55Z jasom: pjb: like I said it's not. Too many servers are broken for any real clients to turn it on by default. 2014-06-23T23:10:01Z orthecreedence: oh good 2014-06-23T23:10:38Z orthecreedence: well if you need an http parser, check out https://github.com/orthecreedence/http-parse 2014-06-23T23:11:04Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-23T23:11:09Z orthecreedence: the tests are lacking but it seems to work well so far 2014-06-23T23:11:09Z _leb quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-23T23:11:11Z rplaca` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T23:11:20Z jasom: orthecreedence: I'm happy with the mongrel http parser (which is written 99% in ragel, so could be trivially ported to common-lisp) 2014-06-23T23:11:40Z orthecreedence: oh good, stick with it then 2014-06-23T23:12:29Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-23T23:12:30Z jasom: And it's now BSD licensed, so more usable in a variety of code 2014-06-23T23:12:39Z orthecreedence: cool, never heard of ragel 2014-06-23T23:12:57Z jasom: orthecreedence: http://www.complang.org/ragel/ (though now that I look, it has no lisp backend; I may have to fix that) 2014-06-23T23:13:19Z orthecreedence: well if you do port it to CL, let me know, i'm open to switching out wookie to use another http parser if it's more correct 2014-06-23T23:13:34Z whmark joined #lisp 2014-06-23T23:13:48Z orthecreedence: tbh min was thrown together because there was no (known) http parser library, just servers that i'd have to rip the parser out of 2014-06-23T23:14:59Z stassats: jasom: you can make a larger vector, make it smaller, then make it larger again 2014-06-23T23:15:07Z stassats: but you need to disable the GC 2014-06-23T23:15:34Z jasom: stassats: I'm just reading things into a buffer, and I don't know how big they are going to be before-hand 2014-06-23T23:17:51Z stassats: changing the size of the buffer is not a good idea 2014-06-23T23:18:25Z jasom: stassats: what would you suggest than? 2014-06-23T23:19:05Z stassats: to do what? 2014-06-23T23:19:10Z avery joined #lisp 2014-06-23T23:19:20Z jasom: 16:13 < jasom> stassats: I'm just reading things into a buffer, and I don't know how big they are going to be before-hand 2014-06-23T23:20:22Z stassats: don't don't know then 2014-06-23T23:20:35Z stassats: or don't read too much 2014-06-23T23:20:52Z stassats: i still have no idea what you're doing 2014-06-23T23:21:01Z jasom: stassats: I'm just copying to a new buffer; it's really annoying to me that the spec provides fill-pointers and extendable arrays but it's still faster to just write it yourself. 2014-06-23T23:21:33Z aeth quit (Quit: ...) 2014-06-23T23:22:08Z stassats: physics is annoying indeed 2014-06-23T23:22:48Z jasom: stassats: how is physics a limitation of "It's faster to maintain a struct with a fill-pointer and resize the array manually" than to use fill-pointers and extendable arrays? 2014-06-23T23:23:51Z stassats: your ad-hoc thing is doing one thing, extensible arrays have to be able to do many things 2014-06-23T23:24:22Z stassats: a multitude of declarations and opencoding would mitigate it, but nobody bothers 2014-06-23T23:24:57Z malice quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-23T23:25:52Z stassats: maybe ccl now does, but the extent is unclear 2014-06-23T23:26:54Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-23T23:26:59Z Hydan quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-23T23:27:30Z stassats: and the fact that extensible arrays are lumped together with displaced arrays doesn't help 2014-06-23T23:27:36Z stassats: blame the standard for that 2014-06-23T23:28:35Z stassats: there are no types for adjustable-array, for array-with-a-fill-pointer, for displaced-array 2014-06-23T23:31:05Z jasom: I agree 2014-06-23T23:36:33Z stassats: the fact that displaced arrays can have arbitrary level of nested displaced is what's killing the performance 2014-06-23T23:37:02Z jasom did not know that 2014-06-23T23:37:24Z jasom: stassats: as in you A1 is displaced to A2 which is displaced to A3; you change where A2 is displaced to and A1 changes as well? 2014-06-23T23:37:51Z stassats: right 2014-06-23T23:37:52Z Bicyclidine: yeah. and you can't just make A1 actually displaced to A3 for that reason. 2014-06-23T23:37:52Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-23T23:37:53Z jasom: That's a pain in the ass 2014-06-23T23:38:05Z jasom: Okay, I mostly forgive sbcl now 2014-06-23T23:38:28Z jasom: would still be nice to have a defacto standard for not-displaced-array 2014-06-23T23:39:22Z stassats: it looks like nobody used non-simple arrays when the standard was written, because it would have been even slower in the 80s 2014-06-23T23:39:51Z stassats: that's why it's poorly specified 2014-06-23T23:42:07Z ustunozgur quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-23T23:42:22Z aeth joined #lisp 2014-06-23T23:42:24Z echo-area quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-23T23:44:31Z DataLinkDroid quit (Quit: Bye) 2014-06-23T23:46:14Z innertracks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T23:46:51Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-23T23:46:59Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-23T23:47:56Z impulse- joined #lisp 2014-06-23T23:48:31Z Denommus quit (Quit: going home) 2014-06-23T23:48:53Z impulse quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-06-23T23:49:42Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-23T23:51:12Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-23T23:51:12Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-06-23T23:51:12Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-23T23:52:30Z qiemem quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-06-23T23:53:07Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-23T23:55:22Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-23T23:56:38Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-23T23:57:42Z drmeiste_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-23T23:58:16Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-24T00:01:03Z ustunozgur quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-24T00:02:09Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-24T00:03:07Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-24T00:04:08Z jchochli_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T00:05:29Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-24T00:06:38Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2014-06-24T00:07:10Z yuikov joined #lisp 2014-06-24T00:08:14Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2014-06-24T00:08:16Z Xach: not done in specialized hardware? 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At the very least, it lets the programmer learn something. 2014-06-24T01:23:02Z RenRenJuan: *socially useless 2014-06-24T01:25:24Z orthecreedence joined #lisp 2014-06-24T01:26:44Z pjb: RenRenJuan: within an organization, it might be a good idea to avoid it. But globally, there's no point, and I don't agree that it's socially useless. 2014-06-24T01:27:19Z pjb: RenRenJuan: but you should perhaps first have an organization using Common Lisp before speaking… 2014-06-24T01:30:56Z ogamita joined #lisp 2014-06-24T01:31:44Z clop2 joined #lisp 2014-06-24T01:33:01Z echo-area joined #lisp 2014-06-24T01:36:23Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-24T01:41:46Z RenRenJuan: pjb I am using CL, not exclusively 2014-06-24T01:43:09Z drmeister: This is way off topic but I'm trying to port my Common Lisp system to linux and I wonder if anyone knows how to install a recent gcc without sudo access. I've got an old linux machine with 32 cores and it's pretty fast but running gcc 4.1 2014-06-24T01:44:11Z RenRenJuan: just build from source using --prefix 2014-06-24T01:44:28Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-24T01:44:45Z RenRenJuan: maybe use AWS free tier 2014-06-24T01:44:59Z RenRenJuan: or other free hosting 2014-06-24T01:46:46Z RenRenJuan: so you have an "old" machine with 32 cores and no root access 2014-06-24T01:46:52Z ogamita: drmeister: that said, you need a gcc, or at least a C compiler already installed on your linux system. 2014-06-24T01:47:06Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-24T01:47:25Z ogamita: but otherwise indeed, mkdir $HOME/opt ; ./configure --prefix=$HOME/opt && make install # should do the trick. 2014-06-24T01:47:42Z drmeister: I have gcc 4.1 I have compiled and installed gcc4.8 - I then installed clang - I'm having trouble getting clang to compile with c++11 2014-06-24T01:48:11Z drmeister: I've added the include path for c++/4.8.0 to the build system but it's throwing up all sorts of compile errors. 2014-06-24T01:48:28Z ogamita: It should be similar for clang, you don't need root anymore than for gcc. 2014-06-24T01:48:28Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-24T01:48:37Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2014-06-24T01:48:51Z drmeister: RenRenJuan: What free hosting are you referring to? 2014-06-24T01:48:57Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-24T01:49:44Z RenRenJuan: that at AWS the entire class it includes 2014-06-24T01:50:40Z drmeister: AWS is Amazon Web Services? 2014-06-24T01:51:09Z RenRenJuan: y 2014-06-24T01:52:16Z drmeister: And AWS gives you command line access and you can build software? 2014-06-24T01:52:42Z cpc26 quit 2014-06-24T01:52:49Z RenRenJuan: you get a whole (virtual) server, your choice of distro/OS 2014-06-24T01:53:07Z drmeister: With one core? Or multiple cores? 2014-06-24T01:53:16Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-24T01:54:08Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-24T01:56:38Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-24T01:56:39Z meiji11 joined #lisp 2014-06-24T01:58:10Z boogie joined #lisp 2014-06-24T01:59:15Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-24T01:59:28Z nightfly: depends on how much you wanna pay 2014-06-24T02:01:03Z ustunozgur quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-24T02:01:33Z patojo joined #lisp 2014-06-24T02:01:40Z RenRenJuan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-24T02:02:05Z boogie quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-24T02:04:42Z ogamita joined #lisp 2014-06-24T02:05:01Z yuikov joined #lisp 2014-06-24T02:13:40Z Zhivago: You can get a single core small instance for a year for free, iirc. 2014-06-24T02:14:09Z bcoburn` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T02:15:37Z paddymahoney quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-24T02:16:24Z axion: micro gives free hours for a year 2014-06-24T02:18:07Z 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2014-06-24T03:54:47Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T03:55:28Z echo-area joined #lisp 2014-06-24T03:55:31Z drmeister: Because that's what I'm looking at at the moment. 2014-06-24T03:56:53Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-06-24T04:01:37Z ustunozgur quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-24T04:01:50Z MjrTom quit (Quit: Planet Earth is blue, and there's nothing I can do) 2014-06-24T04:05:41Z REPLeffect quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-24T04:08:43Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-24T04:13:37Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-24T04:18:17Z ogamita joined #lisp 2014-06-24T04:19:29Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2014-06-24T04:19:45Z REPLeffect joined #lisp 2014-06-24T04:22:33Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-24T04:22:48Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-24T04:23:39Z pjb: drmeister: I would grep for make-string-output-stream 2014-06-24T04:24:03Z pjb: or for with-output-to-string leaking a closure. 2014-06-24T04:25:40Z 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ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-24T12:36:37Z sroy joined #lisp 2014-06-24T12:36:50Z ivan4th quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-24T12:37:06Z ivan4th joined #lisp 2014-06-24T12:38:36Z quasus: in particular, getf is setfable 2014-06-24T12:39:15Z splittist: alexandria has a handful of plist functions, too 2014-06-24T12:39:28Z eMBee: duh, thanks! 2014-06-24T12:39:38Z rstandy joined #lisp 2014-06-24T12:40:17Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-24T12:40:28Z eMBee apologizes for not paying close attention to xach right away. he should know better than that! 2014-06-24T12:41:20Z eni_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T12:42:52Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-06-24T12:44:38Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-24T12:45:10Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-06-24T12:46:33Z eMBee: hmm, how would i do add-or-update, guess i can't do that with getf 2014-06-24T12:47:02Z yuikov joined #lisp 2014-06-24T12:47:05Z yuikov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T12:47:13Z yuikov joined #lisp 2014-06-24T12:47:33Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-24T12:50:02Z eMBee: (setf (getf foo :bar) "baz") 2014-06-24T12:50:22Z eMBee: didn't think that would work, nice 2014-06-24T12:50:39Z eMBee: time to go offline and use this, thanks... 2014-06-24T12:51:14Z Xach: eMBee: you could use get-properties to make something for that. 2014-06-24T12:51:30Z Xach wants to find more uses of get-properties 2014-06-24T12:54:47Z arbscht quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-24T12:55:09Z eMBee: hmm, get-properties looks like it can return multiple properties, how would i use it to update a property? 2014-06-24T12:55:53Z eMBee: clhs get-properties 2014-06-24T12:55:53Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_pr.htm 2014-06-24T12:56:03Z Xach: eMBee: check the tail value; if it's a cons, update the second value, otherwise the property must be added. 2014-06-24T12:56:57Z Xach: "second value", meaning the cadr 2014-06-24T12:57:30Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-24T12:57:47Z juanlas joined #lisp 2014-06-24T12:59:15Z eMBee: hmm, sounds more comlex that using setf-getf 2014-06-24T12:59:47Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-24T13:01:21Z Xach: Well, there isn't, as far as I know, anything like ensure-property. 2014-06-24T13:02:25Z eMBee: (setf (getf foo :bar) "baz") will add the property if it's not there already, so that's exactly what i was looking for 2014-06-24T13:03:34Z Xach: It has a failure mode, though 2014-06-24T13:03:43Z eMBee: which is? 2014-06-24T13:03:44Z Xach: Well, no, I guess it doesn't. 2014-06-24T13:04:18Z Xach: I think I am just confused about some failure I had in the past. I can't remember exactly what it was, unfortunately. 2014-06-24T13:04:18Z eMBee: what were you thinking of as failure mode? (just curious) 2014-06-24T13:04:42Z eMBee: you mean a failure to set a property when it was not there? 2014-06-24T13:04:47Z Xach: eMBee: an empty plist. but you're working with the place. 2014-06-24T13:05:36Z boogie joined #lisp 2014-06-24T13:06:45Z eMBee: funny thing is i also remember an issue where an empty list caused me trouble with updating a value (not with plists though) and that's why i thought (setf (getf ... wouldn't work. 2014-06-24T13:07:11Z eMBee: but i just tried it, it works with empty lists and otherwise... 2014-06-24T13:07:34Z eMBee: got to go now, thanks for your time 2014-06-24T13:07:48Z Xach: eMBee: I think my situation was when passing a plist around to a function that did setf getf. 2014-06-24T13:08:06Z Xach: It affected only the local binding, of course, but I had in mind some magic mutation. 2014-06-24T13:09:00Z eMBee: ah yeah, i think my experience was the similar... 2014-06-24T13:10:04Z boogie quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-24T13:17:21Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-24T13:17:21Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-06-24T13:17:21Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-24T13:17:41Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-06-24T13:18:07Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2014-06-24T13:18:07Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-06-24T13:18:55Z Blaguvest joined #lisp 2014-06-24T13:19:33Z the8thbit quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-24T13:22:59Z lduros joined #lisp 2014-06-24T13:23:21Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-24T13:23:52Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T13:25:09Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-06-24T13:25:09Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-24T13:27:11Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T13:27:25Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-24T13:27:39Z mossplix joined #lisp 2014-06-24T13:28:44Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-24T13:30:02Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-24T13:30:25Z pranavrc quit 2014-06-24T13:31:18Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-06-24T13:31:57Z segv- joined #lisp 2014-06-24T13:33:10Z jusss_ joined #lisp 2014-06-24T13:34:29Z jusss_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T13:34:36Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T13:36:38Z malice quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-24T13:37:21Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-24T13:37:41Z mocchi quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-06-24T13:39:53Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-24T13:40:40Z matko quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T13:47:01Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T13:47:18Z mossplix quit (Quit: mossplix) 2014-06-24T13:49:08Z sandbenderca joined #lisp 2014-06-24T13:50:32Z _xyjprc_ joined #lisp 2014-06-24T13:51:36Z Okasu quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-24T13:51:45Z billstclair joined #lisp 2014-06-24T13:51:46Z billstclair quit (Changing host) 2014-06-24T13:51:46Z billstclair joined #lisp 2014-06-24T13:52:41Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-24T13:54:23Z xyjprc quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-24T13:55:12Z rstandy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T14:00:15Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-24T14:00:39Z ck_ joined #lisp 2014-06-24T14:00:58Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2014-06-24T14:01:01Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-24T14:02:16Z zwer quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-24T14:03:55Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-06-24T14:05:36Z boogie joined #lisp 2014-06-24T14:05:47Z _xyjprc_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-24T14:05:57Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-24T14:08:33Z _xyjprc_ joined #lisp 2014-06-24T14:10:12Z boogie quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-24T14:10:12Z aksr quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-24T14:10:46Z aksr joined #lisp 2014-06-24T14:11:30Z eigenlicht joined #lisp 2014-06-24T14:11:52Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-24T14:12:35Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-24T14:12:41Z drmeist__ joined #lisp 2014-06-24T14:13:18Z Hydan quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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(assert value) ...) 2014-06-24T15:33:38Z boogie joined #lisp 2014-06-24T15:34:27Z clop quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-24T15:36:06Z oGMo: i'm slightly surprised alexandria doesn't have an assert-let, but my guess is people don't do that much 2014-06-24T15:37:00Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-24T15:37:04Z jusss quit (Changing host) 2014-06-24T15:37:05Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-24T15:37:24Z segv-: oGMo: oh sure, i can do lots and lots of things, and i've currently got: (prog1-let ((value ...)) (assert value ...)) which isn't bad really (and prog1-let is used a lot in this code base, so it's actually just fine) 2014-06-24T15:37:49Z segv-: but (let ((value (assert (get-computed-value input) (input) "BLAH BLAH BLAH"))) ...) would be nice too 2014-06-24T15:37:59Z oGMo: did you write prog1-let? i've contemplated that a lot heh 2014-06-24T15:38:08Z segv-: and i can't really think of a reason you'd actually want assert to always return nil 2014-06-24T15:38:21Z _schulte_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-24T15:38:52Z oGMo: segv-: yeah no idea, but otoh peppering asserts around your code may not be the best idea either 2014-06-24T15:38:52Z _xyjprc_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T15:39:15Z oGMo: then again, you could always just shadow ASSERT 2014-06-24T15:40:00Z segv-: oGMo: yeah, that's certainly true 2014-06-24T15:40:23Z segv-: but, for reasons i don't really understand, shadowing assert is not something i willing to do 2014-06-24T15:40:27Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-24T15:40:40Z segv-: it's one step too far from what i expect 2014-06-24T15:41:17Z segv-: oGMo: but you're right, there are lots and lots of ways to work around this. 2014-06-24T15:41:44Z segv-: but the vast majority of the time (with some major exceptions) the standard functions already do exactly what i'd expect them to do (often they do it before i realize that's exactly what i needed) 2014-06-24T15:42:14Z oGMo: well it's CL, that's a given, but making it nice within your project, even if you call it assert* or assert-let or whatever is not bad imo 2014-06-24T15:42:34Z segv-: i mean the guys who came up with (let ((*standard-output* (make-broadcast-stream *standard-output* (make-string-output-stream)))) ...), whic is _awesome_, force assert to return nil 2014-06-24T15:42:35Z oGMo: it is a good question though 2014-06-24T15:42:59Z segv-: ok, i vented. feel better. back to the salt mine. 2014-06-24T15:43:26Z splittist: assert comes with the whole correctable error/change places before continuing infrastructure. If you just want 'blow up or keep going' there are other ways ... 2014-06-24T15:43:53Z oGMo: splittist: it's actually the not-blowing-up part that's the issue in this case 2014-06-24T15:44:21Z segv-: splittist: hm, i hadn't really considered the 'change places before continuing' bit (just something i never use) 2014-06-24T15:44:24Z segv-: but that's a good point 2014-06-24T15:44:39Z |3b|: i guess the requirement that it accepts a place means you have the value already anyway 2014-06-24T15:44:52Z mathrick_: http://kingjamesprogramming.tumblr.com/post/74482677120/ <-- I did not know that 2014-06-24T15:44:53Z oGMo: it shouldn't matter though because if you continue, the value assert finally OK'd is not available 2014-06-24T15:45:02Z oGMo: |3b|: ah 2014-06-24T15:46:05Z |3b|: though check-type also returns NIL, and i could see wrapping that around forms that create a value without having a place 2014-06-24T15:46:58Z |3b|: hmm, actually, i guess having places for assert is optional too, so ignore me 2014-06-24T15:47:04Z clop joined #lisp 2014-06-24T15:48:20Z FracV joined #lisp 2014-06-24T15:48:20Z FracV quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-24T15:52:00Z chenjf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T15:52:11Z chris_l joined #lisp 2014-06-24T15:55:11Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-06-24T15:58:20Z eudoxia: i wonder what a markov bot trained on the CLHS (and something else) would look like 2014-06-24T15:58:34Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-24T15:59:00Z eudoxia: "..." 2014-06-24T15:59:18Z mathrick_: presumably 2014-06-24T16:06:58Z seangrov` joined #lisp 2014-06-24T16:09:17Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-24T16:09:25Z Ralt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-24T16:09:29Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T16:09:34Z Xach: Hmm, I remember a survey or overview of weak hash tables in Common Lisp implementations from a while ago. I thought sam steingold wrote it, but I can't find it via google. Anyone happen to know a direct link to it? 2014-06-24T16:10:43Z Karl_Dscc quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-24T16:10:57Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-24T16:11:23Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2014-06-24T16:12:24Z gingerale joined #lisp 2014-06-24T16:15:16Z drmeist__ joined #lisp 2014-06-24T16:16:36Z jasom: Xach: not sure about that, but I think pjb wrote a compatibility layer for them which includes a table of what features they support in the package docstring 2014-06-24T16:16:38Z drmeiste_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-24T16:17:55Z davazp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T16:18:14Z davazp` joined #lisp 2014-06-24T16:18:14Z Xach: I think it was actually presented at an ILC 2014-06-24T16:18:39Z Oberon4278 joined #lisp 2014-06-24T16:19:02Z Xach: ahh http://www.haible.de/bruno/papers/cs/weak/WeakDatastructures-writeup.html 2014-06-24T16:19:36Z Xach had the wrong clisper 2014-06-24T16:19:44Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-06-24T16:19:55Z jasom: Is he still working on clisp? 2014-06-24T16:20:32Z Xach: I think so, but I don't know. 2014-06-24T16:20:38Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-24T16:20:43Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-24T16:23:04Z Xach: To the extent that anyone works on clisp, I think he still is. 2014-06-24T16:25:22Z chris_l quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-24T16:27:02Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-24T16:28:00Z ramkrsna quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-24T16:31:16Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-06-24T16:32:32Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-24T16:34:11Z ehaliewicz joined #lisp 2014-06-24T16:34:37Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-24T16:36:08Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-06-24T16:37:43Z vaporatorius is now known as Vaporatorius 2014-06-24T16:37:47Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-24T16:39:19Z KCL_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-24T16:39:52Z hitecnologys_ joined #lisp 2014-06-24T16:41:18Z hitecnologys_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-24T16:42:05Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-24T16:42:34Z hitecnologys quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-24T16:45:16Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-24T16:47:17Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-24T16:47:17Z drmeist__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-24T16:48:40Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-24T16:51:27Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-24T16:53:00Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2014-06-24T16:53:29Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-24T16:54:22Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-24T16:57:12Z yrk quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-24T16:58:01Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-24T17:01:11Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-24T17:06:48Z fourier joined #lisp 2014-06-24T17:07:26Z fourier: Hi 2014-06-24T17:07:44Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-24T17:07:55Z fourier: I got a strange error while trying to implement something like "Observer" pattern: http://paste.lisp.org/+32BX 2014-06-24T17:08:47Z fourier: The idea is simple: define interface (mixin) in one package, derive a class and implement generic in another package, try to use in third package. 2014-06-24T17:09:19Z boogie quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2014-06-24T17:09:25Z fourier: I got "There is no applicable method for the generic function" error :( 2014-06-24T17:09:34Z FracV joined #lisp 2014-06-24T17:11:19Z segv-: iface-pkg::notify and impl-pkg::notify are not the same symbol 2014-06-24T17:11:34Z segv-: so you actually have no methods on iface-pkg::notify 2014-06-24T17:11:39Z foreignFunction joined #lisp 2014-06-24T17:12:24Z jasom: fourier: that should emit a warning in sbcl when you compile it 2014-06-24T17:12:46Z jasom: fourier: you could use iface-pkg in impl-pkg 2014-06-24T17:12:50Z segv-: your impl-pkg should probably (:use :iface-pkg) 2014-06-24T17:13:57Z jasom: fourier: STYLE-WARNING: Implicitly creating new generic function IMPL-PKG:NOTIFY. 2014-06-24T17:14:06Z jasom: That's the hint that you messed something up 2014-06-24T17:14:36Z fourier: ahha, so I still need to :use the interface 2014-06-24T17:15:11Z fourier: Perfect, thanks! I missed that part 2014-06-24T17:17:33Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-24T17:19:14Z forgottenone quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-24T17:19:57Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-24T17:21:45Z whmark joined #lisp 2014-06-24T17:21:52Z ivan4th quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-24T17:23:15Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-24T17:23:29Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2014-06-24T17:23:39Z ivan4th joined #lisp 2014-06-24T17:25:12Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2014-06-24T17:25:17Z fourier quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T17:31:01Z ivan4th quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-24T17:33:28Z mossplix quit (Quit: mossplix) 2014-06-24T17:35:14Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-06-24T17:35:38Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-06-24T17:37:33Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-24T17:41:28Z mossplix joined #lisp 2014-06-24T17:43:16Z orthecreedence joined #lisp 2014-06-24T17:45:00Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2014-06-24T17:45:00Z Mon_Ouie quit (Changing host) 2014-06-24T17:45:00Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2014-06-24T17:46:16Z ryankarason joined #lisp 2014-06-24T17:47:17Z malice joined #lisp 2014-06-24T17:50:34Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2014-06-24T17:54:25Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-24T17:56:49Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-24T17:56:59Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-06-24T17:57:05Z kushal quit (Changing host) 2014-06-24T17:57:05Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-06-24T17:58:24Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-24T17:58:45Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T17:59:17Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-24T17:59:40Z sykopomp quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-24T18:00:26Z seangrov` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-24T18:03:10Z FracV quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T18:03:59Z yuikov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T18:04:28Z axion: i'm trying to write a macro to generate complex html tables easily. how can i use dolist in a collect loop keyword like this. currently it just outputs the final (the '<' package just prints out a string of the corresponding html tag): http://paste.lisp.org/display/142991 2014-06-24T18:04:29Z vlnx_ joined #lisp 2014-06-24T18:04:37Z vlnx quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-24T18:05:39Z Bike: dolist just executes code, it doesn't do any collection 2014-06-24T18:06:00Z Bike: maybe you want (mapcar (lambda (row) (<:td row)) ,rows) or something 2014-06-24T18:06:10Z axion: i see 2014-06-24T18:07:14Z jasom: axion: or just a nested loop 2014-06-24T18:07:31Z axion: how could this be better written. i always get lost with these nested loops :/ 2014-06-24T18:07:46Z axion: that was a ? 2014-06-24T18:08:00Z jasom: (loop for item in ,items collect (<:tr (loop for row in rows collect (<:td row)))) 2014-06-24T18:08:16Z jasom: opps 2014-06-24T18:08:16Z Bike: that might be better 2014-06-24T18:08:39Z jasom: ignore my mispelled oops 2014-06-24T18:08:47Z Bike: axion: the macro-ness is weird. when you have a macro that just does `(... ,var ...) sorta thing that seems more like a regular ol function. 2014-06-24T18:09:09Z jasom: Bike: I think that's a side-effect of the html generation library he's using perhaps? 2014-06-24T18:09:18Z Bike: beats me, it's just a thought 2014-06-24T18:09:32Z quasus: what's the point of BODY? 2014-06-24T18:09:44Z quasus: it isn't present in the body :) 2014-06-24T18:10:01Z axion: there is none yet :) 2014-06-24T18:10:16Z quasus: generally, what do you intend to put there? 2014-06-24T18:10:25Z sykopomp joined #lisp 2014-06-24T18:10:35Z jasom: axion: which html library are you using? 2014-06-24T18:10:47Z jasom recognizes the <:foo syntax but doesn't recall which one it's frome 2014-06-24T18:10:50Z davazp` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T18:10:59Z quasus: btw, your macro will first evaluate COLUMNS and then ITEMS - that's unexpected 2014-06-24T18:11:15Z quasus: also you should gensym col, item, and row 2014-06-24T18:11:41Z axion: i need to do more compelx work on this, such as the passed in rows being something like: '(:name :address (some-function :data)), in other words, optional function that is not executed until the right time when it getf's in the macro 2014-06-24T18:12:27Z axion: jasom: sexml 2014-06-24T18:12:45Z avery left #lisp 2014-06-24T18:13:15Z jasom: oh, I was thinking of yaclml which also uses that style 2014-06-24T18:13:35Z jasom thought sexml was targeted more at strict xml generation 2014-06-24T18:13:53Z axion: it's madnificent's child, and can use any doctype 2014-06-24T18:15:56Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-24T18:17:10Z jasom: And it needs the entire tree to be generated at compiletime, it looks like which is why you're using a macro? 2014-06-24T18:17:50Z Xach: redo2, eh? 2014-06-24T18:18:20Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-24T18:18:49Z axion: yeah looks like it 2014-06-24T18:18:54Z _death: jasom: maybe you recognize it from yaclml 2014-06-24T18:18:57Z jasom: Xach: did I leave some of that garbage in there? 2014-06-24T18:19:16Z _death: ah, didn't see your later remark 2014-06-24T18:19:22Z Xach: hee hee 2014-06-24T18:19:29Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-24T18:19:37Z jasom: ah, in the description field 2014-06-24T18:19:58Z jasom: Xach: I take it you still have that RSS feed for new lis pgithub projetcs? 2014-06-24T18:20:11Z Xach: jasom: yes. 2014-06-24T18:20:12Z Xach: i love it. 2014-06-24T18:20:33Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-24T18:21:38Z matko joined #lisp 2014-06-24T18:22:22Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T18:22:34Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-24T18:22:36Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-24T18:23:36Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-24T18:23:51Z bocaneri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-24T18:25:29Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T18:26:44Z KCL_ joined #lisp 2014-06-24T18:29:13Z eni_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-24T18:29:15Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-24T18:31:28Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-24T18:33:09Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-24T18:33:09Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-06-24T18:33:10Z therik quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T18:35:06Z jxv joined #lisp 2014-06-24T18:35:52Z pjb joined #lisp 2014-06-24T18:36:16Z pjb is now known as Guest30664 2014-06-24T18:36:56Z Guest30664 is now known as pjb` 2014-06-24T18:39:25Z matko quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T18:39:37Z matko joined #lisp 2014-06-24T18:41:30Z sheilong joined #lisp 2014-06-24T18:41:48Z eni_ joined #lisp 2014-06-24T18:41:55Z z0d quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-24T18:43:28Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2014-06-24T18:46:08Z jxv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-24T18:47:30Z wz1000 joined #lisp 2014-06-24T18:50:09Z KCL_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-24T18:51:26Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-24T18:51:34Z eni_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-24T18:53:00Z replcated joined #lisp 2014-06-24T18:55:20Z raschwell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-24T18:55:44Z oleo: hmmm 2014-06-24T18:55:51Z raschwell joined #lisp 2014-06-24T18:55:57Z oleo: breadth-wise looping is ok but depth-wise...... 2014-06-24T18:57:06Z z0d joined #lisp 2014-06-24T18:59:15Z Rptx joined #lisp 2014-06-24T19:03:44Z oleo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142992 2014-06-24T19:04:05Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-24T19:04:23Z yuikov joined #lisp 2014-06-24T19:05:31Z flounders joined #lisp 2014-06-24T19:05:44Z yuikov quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-06-24T19:10:09Z jxv joined #lisp 2014-06-24T19:10:32Z eni_ joined #lisp 2014-06-24T19:13:08Z aretecode quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-24T19:13:20Z oleo: so how do you deepen into something like (((((((a))))))) ? 2014-06-24T19:15:25Z pjb: C-f 2014-06-24T19:16:08Z pjb: (loop for x = '(((((((a))))))) then (car x) while (consp x) collect x) --> ((#1=(#2=(#3=(#4=(#5=(#6=(a))))))) #1# #2# #3# #4# #5# #6#) 2014-06-24T19:16:39Z aretecode joined #lisp 2014-06-24T19:17:13Z pjb: oleo: in the case of pre2in, you want to make a recursive call. 2014-06-24T19:18:57Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-24T19:19:50Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-06-24T19:22:24Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T19:22:59Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-24T19:25:43Z xyjprc joined #lisp 2014-06-24T19:27:45Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-24T19:28:12Z Vivitron quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-24T19:28:55Z matija joined #lisp 2014-06-24T19:30:21Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T19:30:36Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-24T19:33:47Z oleo: i'm bad at recursion... 2014-06-24T19:34:27Z oleo: can't figure it.... 2014-06-24T19:37:44Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T19:39:04Z uzo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-06-24T19:41:03Z wz1000 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-24T19:42:58Z nug700 joined #lisp 2014-06-24T19:46:16Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-06-24T19:46:52Z funnel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T19:47:49Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-24T19:49:57Z WeirdEnthusiast quit (Quit: EliteBNC free bnc service - http://elitebnc.org - be a part of the Elite!) 2014-06-24T19:50:25Z clop2 joined #lisp 2014-06-24T19:51:30Z coyo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-24T19:52:09Z felideon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-24T19:52:59Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-24T19:53:09Z uzo joined #lisp 2014-06-24T19:54:46Z jasom: oleo: it's a fundamental concept of computer science, you should spend some time trying to figure it out. 2014-06-24T19:55:08Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-24T19:55:24Z jasom: oleo: It's considered one of the harder ones to grasp, so don't despair if you don't get it right away 2014-06-24T19:55:37Z jtz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-24T19:55:49Z oleo: well it seem i get parts of it.... 2014-06-24T19:56:12Z oleo: especially tree-recursion is iffy.... 2014-06-24T19:56:31Z jasom: oleo: tree-recursion is a common case where recursion can't be represented by simple iteration 2014-06-24T19:56:39Z adlai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-24T19:56:42Z oleo: jep got it 2014-06-24T19:56:52Z nialo joined #lisp 2014-06-24T19:57:39Z jasom: oleo: try drawing out a tree on paper and think about how you would walk the tree by hand; then model a recursive call as any time you go from parent to child, and a return as any time you go from child to parent. 2014-06-24T19:58:34Z felideon joined #lisp 2014-06-24T19:58:49Z oleo: that is put well.... 2014-06-24T19:58:54Z oleo: my head is exploding.... 2014-06-24T19:58:57Z oleo: lol 2014-06-24T19:59:19Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-24T19:59:26Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2014-06-24T20:00:00Z chris_l joined #lisp 2014-06-24T20:01:58Z eni_ is now known as eni 2014-06-24T20:02:05Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-24T20:02:16Z hellome joined #lisp 2014-06-24T20:02:30Z theos joined #lisp 2014-06-24T20:03:33Z nialo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-24T20:04:33Z ThePhoeron: hm 2014-06-24T20:04:40Z adlai joined #lisp 2014-06-24T20:04:45Z ThePhoeron: jasom: that is well put 2014-06-24T20:05:21Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-24T20:06:06Z oleo: sheesh sorry for the anal.... 2014-06-24T20:06:52Z yuikov joined #lisp 2014-06-24T20:09:12Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T20:09:12Z yuikov quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-06-24T20:09:13Z foreignFunction quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-24T20:10:02Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-06-24T20:10:46Z ivan\ quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-24T20:11:12Z WeirdEnthusiast joined #lisp 2014-06-24T20:11:25Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2014-06-24T20:16:52Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-24T20:18:48Z Sir_herrbatka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-24T20:19:28Z jxv quit (Quit: QUIT) 2014-06-24T20:19:41Z sroy quit (Quit: Quitte) 2014-06-24T20:24:13Z funnel joined #lisp 2014-06-24T20:24:42Z sternenseemann left #lisp 2014-06-24T20:25:27Z chris_l quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2014-06-24T20:26:30Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-24T20:26:55Z knob quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-24T20:27:31Z ndp joined #lisp 2014-06-24T20:27:46Z Hydan quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-06-24T20:30:12Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-24T20:30:29Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T20:31:03Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-24T20:31:29Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-24T20:32:15Z ivan\ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2014-06-24T20:32:59Z jasom: oleo: usually it's obvious how recursive functions work locally. From there, it's a case of induction to see that it works globally as well. If you try to think globally from the start your brain will explode (unless you are way smarter than I am anyway) 2014-06-24T20:35:23Z jasom: (defun print-binary-tree (node) (when node (print-binary-tree (node-left-child node)) (print (node-data node)) (print-binary-tree (node-right-child node))) 2014-06-24T20:35:44Z jasom: locally you can see this does 1: check for null node 2: Print the left subtree 3: print the local data 4: print the right subtree 2014-06-24T20:37:26Z jasom: Figuring out that this is a correct in-order traversal of a binary search tree takes some reasoning from there, but if you just tried to think about how it works at large without seeing how it works locally first you could get into trouble. 2014-06-24T20:38:51Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2014-06-24T20:39:03Z mossplix quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-24T20:43:16Z mossplix joined #lisp 2014-06-24T20:47:42Z ivan4th joined #lisp 2014-06-24T20:48:24Z oleo: right, i'm at the door...... 2014-06-24T20:48:32Z oleo: so to say.... 2014-06-24T20:48:45Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-24T20:49:09Z _schulte_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-24T20:50:55Z oleo: and the monks cry "son of a butcherer you!" 2014-06-24T20:51:00Z oleo: weee 2014-06-24T20:51:06Z oleo sits down! 2014-06-24T20:55:00Z lduros` joined #lisp 2014-06-24T20:55:06Z lduros quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T20:55:16Z ggole quit 2014-06-24T20:55:42Z _leb joined #lisp 2014-06-24T20:55:44Z dlowe quit (K-Lined) 2014-06-24T20:56:23Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T20:56:38Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-24T20:57:09Z dlowe joined #lisp 2014-06-24T20:57:52Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-24T20:59:17Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-24T21:03:27Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-24T21:04:25Z replcated quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T21:05:16Z francogrex joined #lisp 2014-06-24T21:09:50Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T21:12:33Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-24T21:14:24Z jtz joined #lisp 2014-06-24T21:14:24Z jtz quit (Changing host) 2014-06-24T21:14:24Z jtz joined #lisp 2014-06-24T21:14:52Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-24T21:15:22Z manuel_ quit (Quit: manuel_) 2014-06-24T21:18:22Z ehaliewi` joined #lisp 2014-06-24T21:20:48Z pjb: oleo: recursion is the most trivial concept of CS. Especially for tree walking, which naturally is expressed as a mere loop: (loop with stack = (list tree) for current = (pop stack) do (loop for child in (children current) do (push child stack) (process current))) 2014-06-24T21:21:02Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-24T21:21:17Z francogrex quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T21:21:31Z ehaliewicz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-24T21:21:55Z pjb: oleo: basically, what recursion does for you, is to manage one stack automatically and invisibly. That's why it may be puzzling, because if you don't know what it is, you don't see the stack. But once you understand that function calls are implemented with a stack, recursion is trivial: just a stack. 2014-06-24T21:23:15Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-24T21:23:18Z Shinmera quit (Quit: Zzzzz) 2014-06-24T21:24:15Z pjb: (defun fact (x) (let ((p 1) (stack '())) (loop for x downto 1 do (push x stack)) (loop for x in stack do (setf p (* p x))) p)) vs. (defun fact (x) (if (= x 1) 1 (* x (fact (- x 1))))) 2014-06-24T21:25:02Z pjb: (defun fact (x) (if (= x 1) 1 (* x (fact (- x 1))))) 2014-06-24T21:25:02Z pjb: ^pop ^push 2014-06-24T21:25:33Z pjb: (defun fact (x) (let ((p 1) (stack '())) (loop for x downto 1 do (push x stack)) (loop while stack do (setf p (* p (pop stack)))) p)) 2014-06-24T21:25:37Z blakbunnie27 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-24T21:28:12Z pjb: Sorry a little parenthesis error; the correct tree walking: (loop with stack = (list tree) for current = (pop stack) do (loop for child in (children current) do (push child stack)) (process current)) 2014-06-24T21:28:35Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2014-06-24T21:29:22Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-24T21:32:22Z bgs101 joined #lisp 2014-06-24T21:32:41Z MjrTom quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-24T21:33:39Z bgs100 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-24T21:33:40Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-24T21:34:43Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-24T21:35:31Z zickzackv joined #lisp 2014-06-24T21:35:47Z bgs101 is now known as bgs100 2014-06-24T21:36:24Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-06-24T21:36:45Z jchochli_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T21:37:02Z MjrTom`-` joined #lisp 2014-06-24T21:37:04Z MjrTom`-` quit (Changing host) 2014-06-24T21:37:04Z MjrTom`-` joined #lisp 2014-06-24T21:37:04Z MjrTom quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-24T21:37:10Z MjrTom`-` is now known as MjrTom 2014-06-24T21:37:15Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-24T21:37:41Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-24T21:39:01Z MjrTom`-` joined #lisp 2014-06-24T21:39:01Z MjrTom quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-24T21:39:10Z MjrTom`-` is now known as MjrTom 2014-06-24T21:40:12Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-24T21:41:39Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T21:41:52Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-24T21:41:55Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-24T21:42:00Z replcated joined #lisp 2014-06-24T21:42:47Z patrickwonders joined #lisp 2014-06-24T21:43:17Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-06-24T21:43:17Z mrSpec quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-24T21:43:42Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-06-24T21:43:49Z sandbenderca quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-06-24T21:44:38Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-24T21:44:43Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2014-06-24T21:46:17Z BitPuffin is now known as FowlSucks 2014-06-24T21:46:26Z FowlSucks is now known as BitPuffin 2014-06-24T21:47:13Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-24T21:48:48Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-24T21:49:23Z xyjprc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-24T21:53:11Z aksr quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-24T21:53:56Z aksr joined #lisp 2014-06-24T21:54:21Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-06-24T21:55:12Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-24T21:58:14Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-24T21:59:45Z francogrex joined #lisp 2014-06-24T22:00:18Z sheilong quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-24T22:00:37Z francogrex: http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html ARMel, ARMhf: Available and supported. 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quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T01:46:51Z ivan4th joined #lisp 2014-06-25T01:50:04Z ttmarek joined #lisp 2014-06-25T01:53:06Z ttmarek: Hey. Does anyone know of a way to call (ql:quickload "some-package") automatically from within another package? I'm using cl-ppcre in a package I'm building. Write now my packages' .asd file only evaluates without errors if I call (ql: quickload "cl-ppcre") in the repl beforehand.... 2014-06-25T01:53:35Z Bike: you're not supposed to evaluate asds 2014-06-25T01:54:00Z ttmarek: what do you mean 2014-06-25T01:55:30Z Bike: asdf uses them. you don't interact with them directly, just load your system and let asdf handle it. 2014-06-25T01:55:41Z Bike: asdf also does dependencies, which is what you should be doing instead of explicit quickload calls. 2014-06-25T01:59:33Z ttmarek: Oh...ok. I get an error if I don't do the explicit quickload calls....I guess asdf isn't configured to look for asd files in my project's directory. Would you agree? 2014-06-25T01:59:37Z echo-area joined #lisp 2014-06-25T02:00:00Z Bike: no, quicklisp should be though 2014-06-25T02:00:33Z ttmarek: Ahhh, any idea how I can specify which directories quicklisp should crawl through? 2014-06-25T02:01:33Z Bike: http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/faq.html see "Can I load a local project that isn't part of Quicklisp?" 2014-06-25T02:03:21Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2014-06-25T02:03:43Z jamesf joined #lisp 2014-06-25T02:04:47Z ttmarek: Nice, thanks Bike! 2014-06-25T02:08:05Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-06-25T02:08:32Z harish joined #lisp 2014-06-25T02:09:43Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-25T02:12:13Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-25T02:12:51Z nipra quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-25T02:15:03Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-25T02:21:18Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-25T02:23:12Z TDog_ joined #lisp 2014-06-25T02:25:21Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-25T02:25:22Z TDog_ is now known as TDog 2014-06-25T02:26:15Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-06-25T02:26:24Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-25T02:29:18Z yrdz quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-25T02:31:05Z ahungry: in sbcl how can I detect what OS I am on (or at least detect when win32 vs gnu/linux? 2014-06-25T02:31:26Z ahungry: I believe I found a fix for cl-cffi-gtk crashing when moving application windows in win32 by just not calling some gdk-thread functions 2014-06-25T02:31:29Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2014-06-25T02:33:53Z Bike: there should be win-something in *features*, for you to read-conditional on. 2014-06-25T02:34:39Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-25T02:39:00Z momo-reina joined #lisp 2014-06-25T02:39:19Z ahungry: awesome Bike thanks a ton 2014-06-25T02:48:39Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-25T02:51:33Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-25T02:51:40Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-25T02:53:08Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-06-25T02:53:56Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2014-06-25T02:54:05Z innertracks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T02:54:50Z MjrTom quit (Quit: Planet Earth is blue, and there's nothing I can do) 2014-06-25T02:55:16Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-25T02:57:26Z jamesf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T03:02:07Z chu joined #lisp 2014-06-25T03:02:08Z frkout_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T03:02:27Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-06-25T03:05:17Z ttmarek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-25T03:14:41Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-25T03:18:41Z ahungry: I see cl-cffi-gtk (https://github.com/crategus/cl-cffi-gtk) which seems like a prtty good gtk3 binding library (with lots of documentation) isn't in quicklisp 2014-06-25T03:19:02Z ahungry: Should I ask the maintainer to request it be added, or just request my fork of it be added? 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No freakin' way can I get that to build. 2014-06-25T05:49:21Z drmeiste_: Get my Common Lisp system working with the Boehm garbage collector - check. Get it to work with the compacting MPS garbage collector - check (although a bug still lurks and its a little slow). Get it moved to linux so I can profile it - bit fat zero. 2014-06-25T05:49:30Z drmeiste_: s/bit/big/g 2014-06-25T05:50:13Z drmeiste_: It doesn't want to leave my laptop it seems. 2014-06-25T05:50:28Z Longlius joined #lisp 2014-06-25T05:51:41Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-06-25T05:51:51Z drmeiste_: I'll throw this out there - Does anyone have a multicore linux system I could get access to to build this thing? I need a recent GCC (4.7 or higher). 2014-06-25T05:52:50Z drmeiste_: I've got access to a 64core machine here at my University but it's got an antique Redhat operating system running on it and gcc4.4. When I leveled up to gcc4.7 I still can't get llvm to compile. I'm pulling out what hair I have left. 2014-06-25T05:55:24Z drmeiste_: You'll be the first person on your block with a running version of Clasp - which you can use to clean up all of your pinhead colleagues C++ code. Confound your friends! Amuse your enemies! Step up - step up. 2014-06-25T05:55:58Z brucem: drmeiste_: why not run a more modern Linux in a VM on your laptop? 2014-06-25T05:56:03Z drmeiste_ is getting a little carried away. 2014-06-25T05:56:19Z drmeiste_: I'm punchy from too little sleep and too much messing around with build systems. 2014-06-25T05:56:20Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T05:56:31Z jasom: I only have 6 cores, does that count? 2014-06-25T05:56:35Z brucem: drmeiste_: although, then most profilers won't work ... 2014-06-25T05:57:15Z jasom: nevermind 4 cores 2014-06-25T05:58:11Z drmeiste_: I'm just starting a fresh VirtualBox Ubuntu install. My previous one kept locking up. But what I really want is multicore linux. The static analyzer is a beast - it takes 6 hours on 7 cores. If I could use 16 cores it would take . . . less than that. 2014-06-25T06:00:56Z drmeiste_: jasom: Did two cores just blow out on you? 2014-06-25T06:01:10Z jasom: drmeiste_: my previous machine was 6 cores 2014-06-25T06:01:18Z drmeiste_: Ah. 2014-06-25T06:01:23Z yuikov joined #lisp 2014-06-25T06:01:24Z drmeiste_ is now known as drmeister_ 2014-06-25T06:01:46Z yuikov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T06:01:47Z jasom: I upgraded to a quad core last year and had forgotten 2014-06-25T06:02:08Z yuikov joined #lisp 2014-06-25T06:02:16Z pillton joined #lisp 2014-06-25T06:02:28Z drmeister_: Oh well. If you know anybody who has a 16 or 32 core machine just lying around that I could get an account on - point them in my direction. I was looking into hosting but it gets expensive fast when you want something with real power. 2014-06-25T06:02:58Z yuikov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T06:03:09Z Okasu joined #lisp 2014-06-25T06:03:39Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2014-06-25T06:04:13Z yuikov joined #lisp 2014-06-25T06:05:19Z ahungry_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-25T06:05:34Z ahungry_ joined #lisp 2014-06-25T06:05:54Z jasom: drmeister_: $2/hr for 32 cores on AWS 2014-06-25T06:06:44Z prxq joined #lisp 2014-06-25T06:06:49Z n0n0 joined #lisp 2014-06-25T06:07:06Z theos: thats costly 2014-06-25T06:08:02Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-06-25T06:09:01Z adlai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T06:09:08Z mossplix joined #lisp 2014-06-25T06:09:37Z davazp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T06:11:34Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2014-06-25T06:11:59Z jasom: 16 cores is half the cost of 32 cores so assuming you scale sub-linearly the build would be cheaper on the 16 core machine 2014-06-25T06:12:01Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2014-06-25T06:12:04Z Quadrescence quit (Changing host) 2014-06-25T06:12:04Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2014-06-25T06:12:12Z adlai joined #lisp 2014-06-25T06:13:12Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-06-25T06:13:13Z drmeister_: And I tried to stick dollar bills into my dvd-drive while I was watching some... uh... sporting event - yeah thats it. 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I have Hunchentoot running. I want to start an external process and want to show the output of this process on a page (it's for debugging purposes). How do I do this? 2014-06-25T08:24:40Z segv- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-25T08:24:56Z Ralt: krrrcks: http://lists.common-lisp.net/pipermail/bordeaux-threads-devel/2010-December/000145.html ? 2014-06-25T08:26:51Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-25T08:27:07Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T08:29:07Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-25T08:29:55Z krrrcks: Ralt: Well, that's more for a SLIME integration. I was looking for a Hunchentoot solution. 2014-06-25T08:30:52Z krrrcks: Ralt: Maybe I am using the wrong search terms at Google ;) 2014-06-25T08:31:12Z Ralt: krrrcks: well, I hope this thread give you some good terms to use 2014-06-25T08:32:02Z krrrcks: Ralt: Ah, I'll have a look at it. Thanks. 2014-06-25T08:32:38Z DataLinkDroid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T08:32:43Z DataLinkD2 joined #lisp 2014-06-25T08:36:25Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T08:38:10Z ivan4th quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-25T08:42:10Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-25T08:47:36Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-06-25T08:48:24Z quazimodo quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-25T08:48:39Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-06-25T08:49:33Z optikalmouse quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-25T08:51:09Z optikalmouse joined #lisp 2014-06-25T08:52:31Z DataLinkD2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T08:52:44Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-25T08:52:54Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-25T08:53:43Z n0n0 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-25T08:55:25Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-25T08:55:51Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-25T08:58:43Z ltbarcly quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-25T09:00:49Z Subfusc quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net) 2014-06-25T09:03:15Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-25T09:03:20Z Subfusc joined #lisp 2014-06-25T09:05:56Z DataLinkDroid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-25T09:06:02Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-25T09:09:15Z adlai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-25T09:09:15Z sykopomp quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-25T09:10:27Z zwer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-25T09:13:53Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-25T09:14:54Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T09:15:46Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-25T09:17:27Z adlai joined #lisp 2014-06-25T09:17:36Z sykopomp joined #lisp 2014-06-25T09:18:06Z chenjf joined #lisp 2014-06-25T09:19:42Z malice is now known as Malice 2014-06-25T09:20:09Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-06-25T09:20:42Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T09:22:29Z DataLinkDroid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T09:22:39Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-25T09:24:21Z chenjf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T09:30:35Z z0d quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-25T09:31:01Z leo2007 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-25T09:31:25Z zickzackv joined #lisp 2014-06-25T09:32:32Z DataLinkDroid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T09:32:49Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-25T09:33:01Z kcj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-25T09:33:26Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-25T09:36:49Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-25T09:38:54Z rstandy joined #lisp 2014-06-25T09:43:33Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-25T09:45:44Z z0d joined #lisp 2014-06-25T09:45:44Z z0d quit (Changing host) 2014-06-25T09:45:44Z z0d joined #lisp 2014-06-25T09:45:48Z karupa is now known as zz_karupa 2014-06-25T09:48:12Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2014-06-25T09:53:36Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-06-25T09:56:28Z raschwell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T09:56:44Z raschwell_ joined #lisp 2014-06-25T09:56:53Z raschwell_ is now known as raschwell 2014-06-25T09:58:53Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-06-25T09:59:07Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T10:00:20Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-06-25T10:00:37Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-25T10:02:59Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-25T10:03:05Z nug700 quit (Quit: bye) 2014-06-25T10:06:47Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T10:12:28Z DataLinkDroid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T10:12:51Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-25T10:13:22Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T10:13:50Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-25T10:19:01Z wg1024 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T10:33:30Z YDJX joined #lisp 2014-06-25T10:42:23Z shridhar joined #lisp 2014-06-25T10:42:47Z DataLinkDroid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T10:43:10Z mossplix quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-25T10:44:26Z mossplix joined #lisp 2014-06-25T10:47:13Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-25T10:48:07Z shridhar quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-25T10:54:21Z alpha- joined #lisp 2014-06-25T10:55:03Z alpha-: Hello. Is there a better/shorter way to generate a list of random numbers than (let ((result nil)) (dotimes (num 10 result) (push (random 1.0) result))) ? 2014-06-25T10:55:37Z stassats: (loop repeat 10 collect (random 1.0)) 2014-06-25T10:56:00Z alpha-: thank you stassats 2014-06-25T10:57:50Z Krystof: (a) do you really need a list of random numbers (b) (let ((result (make-list 10 :initial-element 1.0))) (map-into result 'random) result) (c) what stassats said 2014-06-25T10:58:03Z stassats: (map-into result 'random) does not work 2014-06-25T10:58:26Z Krystof: indeed; the closing paren should be after the following result 2014-06-25T10:58:32Z Krystof: (map-into result 'random result) 2014-06-25T10:59:13Z stassats: (map-into (make-list 10) (lambda () (random 10d0))) is what i would have suggested, but loop is shorter 2014-06-25T10:59:14Z alpha-: Krystof (a) I'm just learning stuff 2014-06-25T10:59:41Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-06-25T11:02:41Z shridhar joined #lisp 2014-06-25T11:06:00Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T11:06:45Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-25T11:10:01Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T11:10:22Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-25T11:11:19Z alpha-: is there some way to have :initial-element computed individually every time for make-array? 2014-06-25T11:12:32Z pjb: NO! 2014-06-25T11:12:38Z pjb: Read above! 2014-06-25T11:13:14Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-06-25T11:13:26Z alpha-: how to achieve this then? (make-array '(2 2 2) :initial-element (random 1.0)) <- but with new random value for every initial value 2014-06-25T11:13:35Z pjb: read above! 2014-06-25T11:14:23Z pjb: (let ((a (make-array '(2 2 2)))) (map-into (make-array (reduce '* (array-dimensions a)) :displaced-to a) (lambda () (random 1.0))) a) 2014-06-25T11:15:29Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2014-06-25T11:16:03Z alpha-: that's pretty amazing 2014-06-25T11:16:35Z pjb: In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6. 2014-06-25T11:16:35Z pjb: “What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. 2014-06-25T11:16:35Z pjb: “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. 2014-06-25T11:16:35Z pjb: “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. 2014-06-25T11:16:38Z pjb: “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said. 2014-06-25T11:16:42Z pjb: Minsky then shut his eyes. 2014-06-25T11:16:45Z pjb: “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher. 2014-06-25T11:16:48Z pjb: “So that the room will be empty.” 2014-06-25T11:16:51Z pjb: At that moment, Sussman was enlightened. 2014-06-25T11:16:57Z Zhivago: And then he put it in the toaster. 2014-06-25T11:22:26Z knob joined #lisp 2014-06-25T11:23:06Z draculus quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-25T11:23:45Z alpha-: pjb wow, you can do that kind of thing... 2014-06-25T11:23:49Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-25T11:24:12Z eni_ joined #lisp 2014-06-25T11:24:58Z alpha-: making the 'flat' array the same total length as the initial multidimensional one but using initial one's storage 2014-06-25T11:25:07Z alpha-: this is magic 2014-06-25T11:26:22Z Cymew: I just tried to quickload inferior-shell and got the error that it needs asdf 3.0.3 but (asdf:asdf-version) reports that my latest sbcl (pulled from git and compiled yesterday) provides 3.0.2 only. Are you supposed to be able to upgrade it using quiclisp? Any hints on how? There are so many asdf-* systems there. 2014-06-25T11:26:51Z gigetoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T11:28:15Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2014-06-25T11:28:55Z Sir_herrbatka quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-25T11:29:17Z stassats: alpha-: an actually good way is (loop for i below (array-total-size array) do (setf (row-major-aref array i) (random 10.0))) 2014-06-25T11:30:34Z Krystof: as long as you want random numbers in [0,10), rather than in [0,1)... 2014-06-25T11:30:57Z stassats: that part is not really relevant 2014-06-25T11:32:01Z alpha-: well I was able to understand how previous code worked but I don't think I'll be figure out how this works (yet) 2014-06-25T11:32:05Z _schulte_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-25T11:32:42Z stassats: this one treats the array as a vector of its rows 2014-06-25T11:32:50Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-25T11:33:08Z alpha-: I shall read up on row-major-aref 2014-06-25T11:33:11Z stassats: it is much more efficient than the displaced thing 2014-06-25T11:33:18Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-25T11:35:50Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-06-25T11:36:56Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T11:37:15Z alpha-: I like it stassats, thanks 2014-06-25T11:38:00Z draculus joined #lisp 2014-06-25T11:39:35Z samebchase: Cymew: There is a way to upgrade ASDF, but it doesn't involve QL, IIRC 2014-06-25T11:39:55Z drmeister_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T11:40:23Z stassats: it involves loading asdf.lisp 2014-06-25T11:40:24Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-25T11:40:57Z stassats: better just compile-file it and replace the existing asdf.fasl 2014-06-25T11:44:00Z l_a_m quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-25T11:46:27Z p_l quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-25T11:47:37Z Cymew: Thanks guys 2014-06-25T11:48:54Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-25T11:49:19Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-25T11:51:32Z Sgeo_ quit (Read error: Connection 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test1600 joined #lisp 2014-06-25T13:25:37Z rstandy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-25T13:26:14Z pranavrc quit 2014-06-25T13:28:34Z tbarletz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-25T13:31:12Z mossplix quit (Quit: mossplix) 2014-06-25T13:32:48Z DataLinkDroid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T13:32:54Z DataLinkD2 joined #lisp 2014-06-25T13:35:23Z rstandy joined #lisp 2014-06-25T13:36:46Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-06-25T13:37:45Z Cymew: Hmm. Compiling a 3.1.2.6 version of asdf still makes inferior-lisp impossible to quickload. Is it supposed to be that broken? 2014-06-25T13:37:58Z fortitude joined #lisp 2014-06-25T13:37:58Z Cymew: Sorry, inferior-shell 2014-06-25T13:39:01Z rstandy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T13:40:10Z eudoxia: Cymew: are you getting something like "unknown &KEY argument: :AT" 2014-06-25T13:42:26Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-25T13:43:59Z Cymew: http://paste.lisp.org/+32C6 2014-06-25T13:44:05Z Cymew: that's how it looks like 2014-06-25T13:44:13Z jchochl__ joined #lisp 2014-06-25T13:44:32Z jchochl__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T13:44:40Z eudoxia: yeah seems to be essentially what i'm getting with most of fare's projects 2014-06-25T13:44:52Z Xach: Cymew: What about if you use ASDF 3.0.3? 2014-06-25T13:44:53Z eudoxia: at least the ones that specify the ASDF version 2014-06-25T13:45:04Z jchochl__ joined #lisp 2014-06-25T13:45:06Z jchochli_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T13:45:21Z eudoxia: Xach: he's using 3.1.2.6, which is presumably > 3.0.3 2014-06-25T13:45:26Z Cymew: yes 2014-06-25T13:45:43Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-25T13:45:51Z Xach: eudoxia: How well does that work? 2014-06-25T13:46:01Z Cymew: I have not yet tried to use the exact version specified. I need to remember how to checkout the right branch in asdf git 2014-06-25T13:46:08Z Xach: I am suggesting that the version might need to be exact, rather than "the same or newer" 2014-06-25T13:46:22Z Cymew: Might be the case. 2014-06-25T13:46:24Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-25T13:46:30Z Cymew: Feels iffy, but might be needed 2014-06-25T13:47:14Z eudoxia: Xach: i doubt it's the case that it needs exactly 3.0.3. I had the same problem loading Scribble and solved it by removing the version specifier, and the entire thing works, so 2014-06-25T13:47:33Z eudoxia: either it's a bug in the system definition or in the way ASDF parses version specifiers 2014-06-25T13:48:04Z Xach: Can't it be both? 2014-06-25T13:48:25Z eudoxia: i suppose, but i doubt it 2014-06-25T13:50:44Z Cymew: I figured it out and brought my git-fu up to date. It works if I use that specific version. Does that mean there's a bug in inferior-shell that demands 3.0.3 or is the system definition broken? Sounds like we need to ask the author to be sure 2014-06-25T13:51:26Z Cymew: ASDF version parsing? Shouldn't that have been uncovered before? Maybe not... 2014-06-25T13:51:53Z Xach: Very few systems express version relationships with other systems. 2014-06-25T13:52:27Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-25T13:52:30Z newbie228 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-25T13:52:32Z DataLinkD2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T13:52:41Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-25T13:54:26Z Cymew: I see 2014-06-25T13:57:24Z Cymew: So, it is confirmed it really needs exactly 3.0.3 to work. Messy. 2014-06-25T13:59:25Z Xach: I think it is worth clarifying the intent with the author. 2014-06-25T14:01:32Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-25T14:02:39Z DataLinkD2 joined #lisp 2014-06-25T14:02:41Z DataLinkDroid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T14:06:15Z Cymew: yes 2014-06-25T14:09:25Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-25T14:09:50Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2014-06-25T14:11:08Z fzappa joined #lisp 2014-06-25T14:12:03Z lduros joined #lisp 2014-06-25T14:12:40Z DataLinkD2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T14:12:44Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-25T14:16:52Z DataLinkDroid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-25T14:17:24Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-25T14:19:00Z davazp joined #lisp 2014-06-25T14:19:25Z atgreen` joined #lisp 2014-06-25T14:20:06Z yano quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T14:20:22Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-25T14:20:34Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-25T14:22:18Z yano joined #lisp 2014-06-25T14:23:16Z Guest82456 is now known as High-Q-Brah 2014-06-25T14:23:22Z High-Q-Brah quit (Changing host) 2014-06-25T14:23:22Z High-Q-Brah joined #lisp 2014-06-25T14:23:32Z DataLinkDroid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T14:23:47Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-25T14:25:50Z dandersen joined #lisp 2014-06-25T14:27:06Z dkcl quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-25T14:27:08Z dandersen is now known as dkcl 2014-06-25T14:28:14Z DataLinkDroid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-25T14:32:00Z fzappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T14:32:03Z Shinmera: Xach: I got chirp's oauth to work pretty much out of the box with Tumblr. All it took was adding ("application" . "x-www-form-urlencoded") to drakma's content-types for the request-wrapper function. 2014-06-25T14:32:12Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-25T14:32:19Z Shinmera: Xach: And adapting the URLs accordingly of course 2014-06-25T14:32:36Z Xach: cool. are you going to formally split it off? 2014-06-25T14:32:43Z Shinmera: Most likely, yes. 2014-06-25T14:32:47Z Xach: thanks. 2014-06-25T14:32:56Z Xach: could save me some work! 2014-06-25T14:32:58Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-25T14:33:01Z Shinmera: Though I'd like to test it with some more oAuth1.0 services if I can to see if there's any other oddities that might occur. 2014-06-25T14:33:11Z Xach: you're using affero gpl right? 2014-06-25T14:33:24Z Shinmera: Everything is Artistic for me. 2014-06-25T14:34:18Z Shinmera: https://tldrlegal.com/license/artistic-license-2.0-(artistic) 2014-06-25T14:34:45Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-25T14:35:50Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-06-25T14:36:40Z DataLinkDroid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-25T14:36:48Z stassats: so many licences 2014-06-25T14:37:15Z stassats: i'll name my Poetic Licence 1.0 2014-06-25T14:37:41Z Shinmera: Wouldn't Smug License be better? 2014-06-25T14:37:56Z Shinmera: I'd probably use that if it existed 2014-06-25T14:38:45Z splittist: http://www.gerv.net/writings/poetic-licence/bsd.html 2014-06-25T14:38:51Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-25T14:38:56Z sz0 joined #lisp 2014-06-25T14:39:00Z stassats: well, too late then 2014-06-25T14:41:08Z stassats: "Do what you like, just don't sue us." is a nice short licence 2014-06-25T14:41:19Z Shinmera: But will it hold if someone does sue you? 2014-06-25T14:41:46Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-25T14:42:20Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-25T14:44:24Z splittist: Shinmera: only matters if you have something they want. 2014-06-25T14:44:26Z lduros quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T14:45:37Z edgar-rft quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-25T14:46:23Z josemanuel joined #lisp 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2014-06-25T15:03:41Z Puffin joined #lisp 2014-06-25T15:03:57Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-25T15:04:22Z honkfestival quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-25T15:05:11Z honkfestival joined #lisp 2014-06-25T15:05:55Z Puffin is now known as BitPuffin 2014-06-25T15:05:55Z aksr quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T15:06:30Z aksr joined #lisp 2014-06-25T15:07:33Z atgreen` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-25T15:09:16Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: end of life during parsing) 2014-06-25T15:14:34Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-06-25T15:15:11Z DataLinkDroid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-25T15:17:07Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-25T15:20:21Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-25T15:22:26Z Shinmera: Xach: it'll be at https://github.com/Shinmera/south I'll open a quicklisp ticket once I'm ready for release. 2014-06-25T15:22:37Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-25T15:23:28Z Xach: ok, thanks. 2014-06-25T15:23:58Z stassats: 1 commit, if it was already in separate files, you could recover some history 2014-06-25T15:25:01Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2014-06-25T15:28:17Z Shinmera: stassats: I suppose so, but a good chunk of the (not really big) history of the file is related to chirp changes, which I don't really want to have in there. 2014-06-25T15:31:14Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-06-25T15:31:17Z stassats: you can filter it only for the involved files 2014-06-25T15:31:23Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-25T15:33:25Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-25T15:33:30Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-25T15:33:59Z orthecreedence joined #lisp 2014-06-25T15:34:39Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-25T15:35:20Z aksr quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T15:35:33Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-25T15:35:41Z aksr joined #lisp 2014-06-25T15:36:25Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-25T15:36:43Z ndrei joined 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timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-25T16:04:46Z jasom: How about "The Smug Lisp Weenie License"; you can do whatever you want, except use it in an image that is more than 5% non-lisp code. 2014-06-25T16:05:11Z Zhivago: In which case you must do it underwater. 2014-06-25T16:05:41Z Ralt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-25T16:07:38Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-25T16:08:17Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-25T16:11:49Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-25T16:12:33Z DataLinkDroid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T16:12:44Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-25T16:14:08Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-25T16:14:20Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-06-25T16:17:55Z [SLB] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-25T16:18:32Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-25T16:18:44Z segv- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T16:18:57Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-25T16:20:11Z clop quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-25T16:20:44Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-06-25T16:22:45Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-25T16:24:00Z Shinmera: Xach: http://shinmera.tymoon.eu/public/2014-06-25-182050_3840x1200_scrot.png 2014-06-25T16:24:14Z Shinmera: Xach: I'll see about testing some other services tomorrow. 2014-06-25T16:26:03Z drewc has a SMUG license, has decided on http://unlicense.org/ .... and he is a Lisp Weenie. 2014-06-25T16:29:30Z Xach: Shinmera: 0 followers :( 2014-06-25T16:30:03Z Shinmera: Xach: I have 106 actually, I just suppressed the output because it'd be a load of json that spams the screenshot 2014-06-25T16:30:29Z Xach: 106 folowers :( 2014-06-25T16:31:11Z Shinmera: 106 is plenty enough for me 2014-06-25T16:32:13Z drewc has 0 followers ... given that he has no idea what followers should be following, he is likely not a leader in that aspect. 2014-06-25T16:32:26Z drewc looks at the screenshot 2014-06-25T16:32:48Z clop joined #lisp 2014-06-25T16:33:06Z [SLB] joined #lisp 2014-06-25T16:33:08Z Shinmera: I don't do reblogging and faving and all the things hip kids do to garner attention, so it's not surprising that I'm not famous. 2014-06-25T16:33:51Z AdmiralBumbleBee joined #lisp 2014-06-25T16:34:10Z sykopomp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T16:34:13Z segv- joined #lisp 2014-06-25T16:34:42Z sykopomp joined #lisp 2014-06-25T16:38:04Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-25T16:38:40Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-25T16:40:58Z oGMo: hrm, CCL can't load literal structs.. makes using cl-colors a bit difficult 2014-06-25T16:42:42Z DataLinkD2 joined #lisp 2014-06-25T16:42:55Z KCL_ joined #lisp 2014-06-25T16:42:58Z DataLinkDroid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T16:43:45Z jasom: oGMo: really? 2014-06-25T16:43:57Z jasom: clhs #s 2014-06-25T16:43:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhm.htm 2014-06-25T16:44:24Z oGMo: jasom: yes, (defun foo () #S(foo ...)) will not load 2014-06-25T16:44:40Z YDJX left #lisp 2014-06-25T16:44:46Z jasom isn't sure how they can possibly be conformant without supporting #s 2014-06-25T16:44:50Z oGMo: "no make-load-form method defined for..." 2014-06-25T16:44:54Z jasom: oGMo: are you sure the structure is defined? 2014-06-25T16:45:04Z oGMo: yes 2014-06-25T16:45:07Z fragamus quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-25T16:45:08Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-25T16:45:28Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-25T16:45:44Z jasom: also it looks like cl-color is somewhat like ly own cl-colors 2014-06-25T16:45:51Z jasom: though I use lab rather than hsv 2014-06-25T16:47:15Z jasom: I also don't use structs for colors, since I was lazy when I wrote it 2014-06-25T16:48:09Z jasom: oGMo: what about (make-load-form #s(foo ...)) 2014-06-25T16:48:45Z oGMo: #S doesn't seem optional, hrm 2014-06-25T16:49:10Z oGMo: jasom: same error, of course 2014-06-25T16:49:27Z jasom: oGMo: that's also not optional 2014-06-25T16:49:38Z jasom: "Conforming programs may call make-load-form directly, providing object is a generalized instance of standard-object, structure-object, or condition." 2014-06-25T16:49:44Z drewc: 3.2.4.4 Additional Constraints on Externalizable Objects 2014-06-25T16:50:03Z drewc: structure, standard-object: Objects of type structure-object and standard-object may appear in compiled constants if there is an appropriate make-load-form method defined for that type. 2014-06-25T16:51:30Z oGMo: but 2.4.8.13 specifies #S as being equivalent to a constructor call 2014-06-25T16:52:17Z drewc: it is ... but it cannot be a literal external object because of compile-file IIRC 2014-06-25T16:52:57Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-25T16:53:30Z jasom: so would (read-from-string #S(foo ...)) be a valid make-load-form? 2014-06-25T16:53:36Z oGMo: well all i know is cl-colors is basically useless without heh 2014-06-25T16:54:46Z drewc: "The file compiler calls make-load-form on any object that is referenced as a literal object if the object is a generalized instance of standard-object, structure-object, condition, or any of a (possibly empty) implementation-dependent set of other classes. The file compiler only calls make-load-form once for any given object within a single file." 2014-06-25T16:54:49Z drewc: and : 2014-06-25T16:55:00Z drewc: "A general-purpose concept of similarity does not exist for structures and standard objects. However, a conforming program is permitted to define a make-load-form method for any class K defined by that program that is a subclass of either structure-object or standard-object. The effect of such a method is to define that an object S of type K in source code is similar to an object C of type K in compiled code if C was constructed from code pro 2014-06-25T16:56:34Z oGMo: a simple trivial (defmethod make-load-form ((object structure-object) ...) object) seems to fix things 2014-06-25T16:57:12Z oGMo: er or not 2014-06-25T16:57:23Z oGMo: what is this error _actually_ 2014-06-25T16:57:39Z stassats: you mean it can't load (defun foo () #.#S(foo ...))? 2014-06-25T16:58:03Z drewc: jasom: I think so yeah, " The file compiler is required to preserve eqlness of substructures within a file", and a string is externalizable and will be EQL IIRC ... so that should work. I would prefer to not use the literal #S in source files and use the constructor that defstruct provides be default... 2014-06-25T16:58:24Z oGMo: stassats: fire up ccl and check, maybe mine is broken? 2014-06-25T16:58:36Z jasom: also #s can't represent all possible structures 2014-06-25T16:59:23Z aksr quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T16:59:29Z oGMo: e.g. (defstruct foo x y) (defun foo () #S(foo :x 0 :y 0)) signals for me, as a trivial example 2014-06-25T16:59:52Z aksr joined #lisp 2014-06-25T17:00:03Z oGMo: simple slime-compile-defun / C-c C-c, not even compile-file 2014-06-25T17:00:13Z jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143001 2014-06-25T17:00:37Z stassats: #S is equivalent to #.(make-foo), that explains it 2014-06-25T17:00:38Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2014-06-25T17:00:44Z drewc: again, I would prefer #'MAKE-FOO over trying to make something which the spec specifically says "Preserving eqlness means that subobjects that are the same in the source code must be the same in the corresponding compiled code." .... 2014-06-25T17:02:28Z drewc: stassats: yup, #S is a reader macro, so that makes sense indeed. And without a load-form, why it 'fails' is actually a success from my POV. 2014-06-25T17:02:38Z stassats: oGMo: your make-load-form is wrong, use (make-load-form-saving-slots object) 2014-06-25T17:02:44Z oGMo: stassats: yeah i know 2014-06-25T17:02:50Z oGMo: well 2014-06-25T17:03:05Z oGMo: it's not really practical in any case, afaict 2014-06-25T17:03:07Z jasom: yes, I had forgotten the compiler could call make-load-form on structs 2014-06-25T17:03:16Z fiveop joined #lisp 2014-06-25T17:08:20Z Vivitron joined #lisp 2014-06-25T17:09:31Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-06-25T17:11:58Z jasom: oGMo: changing the "define-constant" to "defparameter" should fix the problem 2014-06-25T17:12:39Z drewc: why do we want a literal read time struct in the source code at all? is LOAD'ing taking a long time using the constructor function so we want it to be a literal (non-modifiable) object? 2014-06-25T17:13:11Z jasom: drewc: it's not in the source, exactly 2014-06-25T17:13:21Z oGMo: it's in the fasl 2014-06-25T17:13:27Z jasom: it's (alexandria:define-constant foo (make-bar ...)) 2014-06-25T17:13:45Z oGMo: basically yeah 2014-06-25T17:14:39Z drewc: jasom: ... the error sans MAKE-LOAD-FORM does not happen at all and I have been thinking about a complete falsehood? Sorry 'bout dat. 2014-06-25T17:15:06Z oGMo: it happens loading the compiled form, not compiling it 2014-06-25T17:15:34Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-06-25T17:15:49Z oGMo: at some point, obviously something expands to that, and as jasom said, not doing so would be the simple solution 2014-06-25T17:16:00Z jasom: drewc: it's because there is a macro that is evaluating the (make-foo ...) call 2014-06-25T17:16:16Z jasom: oGMo: line 159 of colors.lisp 2014-06-25T17:16:27Z jasom: just change define-constant to defparameter and all should work 2014-06-25T17:16:29Z juanlas quit (Quit: juanlas) 2014-06-25T17:17:23Z oGMo: jasom: ya 2014-06-25T17:18:14Z drewc: and DEFMACRO creates something the only runs at load time, so read/macroexpand/compile does not happen first? OR: I will shut up now, the spec and the interpreter/compiler must be off, therefore so m I :P 2014-06-25T17:18:26Z drewc: s/ m / am / 2014-06-25T17:18:40Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-25T17:18:54Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-25T17:18:54Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-06-25T17:18:54Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-25T17:19:34Z KCL_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-25T17:21:27Z seangrov` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-25T17:21:43Z jasom: drewc: the macro expands to a defconstant that returns the old value if the constant is already defined, and a new value if it isn't (thus making them eql) 2014-06-25T17:22:01Z attila_lendvai quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-25T17:22:26Z drewc: defconstant for a non-constant? that will not work. 2014-06-25T17:22:27Z DataLinkD2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T17:22:29Z Okasu quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-25T17:22:38Z jasom: drewc: tell that to the alexandria devs 2014-06-25T17:22:44Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-25T17:23:07Z jasom: drewc: http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=projects/alexandria/alexandria.git;a=blob;f=definitions.lisp;h=863e1f696286edd85936508714b517e9718f85fb;hb=HEAD;js=1 2014-06-25T17:24:41Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-25T17:25:02Z jasom: drewc: I don't know if that's conforming or not. I don't use that particular macro myself. 2014-06-25T17:25:53Z drewc: jasom: I am confused, for that form follows the spec ... and (defmacro define-constant (name initial-value &key (test ''eql) documentation) [...]) means that the redefined constant must be EQL to the old one ... 2014-06-25T17:26:14Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-25T17:29:49Z shridhar quit (Quit: shridhar) 2014-06-25T17:31:27Z notori0us quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-25T17:32:44Z drewc: and, recompiling something the defines a struct as a constant is, well, not allowed without make-load-form... and of course modify a literal and it is not constant and non-conforming... why do we want the literal struct as a constant for compile time exactly? 2014-06-25T17:33:05Z foreignFunction joined #lisp 2014-06-25T17:33:22Z juanlas joined #lisp 2014-06-25T17:33:27Z nipra quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-25T17:33:41Z jasom: drewc: nobody does as far as I know, the developer of colors just used define-constant witha a test of #'equalp 2014-06-25T17:35:14Z drewc: ah, well ... to me "Colors" is the title of a Sean Penn film, so I cannot help at all :D 2014-06-25T17:36:29Z drewc spells "Colour" the English way after all :P 2014-06-25T17:38:39Z jasom: oGMo: where is the error coming from? I just loaded cl-colors on ccl no problem 2014-06-25T17:42:00Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-25T17:43:31Z notori0us joined #lisp 2014-06-25T17:43:42Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-25T17:43:57Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-25T17:44:26Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-06-25T17:44:33Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-25T17:45:47Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-25T17:47:03Z moore33 joined #lisp 2014-06-25T17:47:49Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-25T17:48:06Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-25T17:50:11Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-25T17:51:36Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2014-06-25T17:52:32Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-06-25T17:52:34Z jasom: okay, I made a simple test-case with define-constant and got that error once, but I deleted the fasl and haven't been able to get it again. I give up. 2014-06-25T17:52:40Z DataLinkDroid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T17:52:42Z DataLinkD2 joined #lisp 2014-06-25T17:53:29Z seangrov` joined #lisp 2014-06-25T17:53:41Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-25T17:55:03Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-06-25T17:55:56Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2014-06-25T17:55:57Z stassats: referencing a constant is the same as if the value appeared literally 2014-06-25T17:56:22Z jasom: stassats: thank you! 2014-06-25T17:56:35Z jasom: that was the issue, I originally was printing the constant in my test-case 2014-06-25T17:56:49Z brain_shim quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-25T17:57:30Z oGMo: jasom: loading is fine, using is the problem 2014-06-25T17:57:50Z oGMo: jasom: e.g., (defclass foo () ((color :initform cl-colors:+black+))) 2014-06-25T17:58:37Z oGMo: or (defun foo () cl-colors:+red+) or whatnot .. anything that compiles one of the color constants, as above 2014-06-25T17:59:20Z jasom: http://paste.lisp.org/+32CA/1 2014-06-25T17:59:23Z jasom: that will blow up 2014-06-25T17:59:32Z jasom: on compile-file 2014-06-25T18:00:01Z jasom: so yeah, oGMo submit a fix to cl-colors 2014-06-25T18:00:08Z AdmiralBumbleBee quit (Quit: AdmiralBumbleBee) 2014-06-25T18:00:54Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-25T18:02:12Z jasom: stassats: do you have a reference for that? 2014-06-25T18:02:25Z stassats: of course! 2014-06-25T18:02:33Z stassats: clhs 3.2.2.3 2014-06-25T18:02:33Z specbot: Semantic Constraints: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbc.htm 2014-06-25T18:02:57Z jasom: so you can't use define-constant for anything without a make-load-form 2014-06-25T18:02:59Z Rosario joined #lisp 2014-06-25T18:03:42Z davazp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T18:05:18Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2014-06-25T18:05:18Z ramkrsna quit (Changing host) 2014-06-25T18:05:18Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2014-06-25T18:06:07Z drewc: jasom: "Objects of type structure-object and standard-object may appear in compiled constants if there is an appropriate make-load-form method defined for that type." first thing I said/quoted :) 2014-06-25T18:06:24Z Nighthawk1 joined #lisp 2014-06-25T18:07:06Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-25T18:07:11Z jasom: Anybody know why there isn't a general-purpose concept of similarity for structures? 2014-06-25T18:07:33Z Bicyclidine: same reason there isn't a general-purpose equality, i guess 2014-06-25T18:07:37Z H4ns: jasom: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html 2014-06-25T18:08:15Z Bicyclidine: i think two objects can be coalesced if they're eq, though? 2014-06-25T18:08:28Z Bicyclidine: wait that doesn't make sense, nvm 2014-06-25T18:08:39Z stassats: Bicyclidine: it does make sense 2014-06-25T18:08:47Z jasom: H4ns: I don't see why it's harder for structures than e.g. arrays 2014-06-25T18:09:02Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-25T18:09:05Z stassats: jasom: "because reasons", as usual 2014-06-25T18:09:23Z jasom: stassats: I would believe there are reasons, just wondering why 2014-06-25T18:09:26Z stassats: maybe because there's no structure equality predicate, since EQUALP is bogus for structures 2014-06-25T18:10:09Z stassats: it is bogus for arrays too, for that matter 2014-06-25T18:10:38Z jasom: stassats: but arrays do have defined similarity 2014-06-25T18:11:10Z stassats: equal not working on all arrays is such bullshit 2014-06-25T18:11:30Z Bicyclidine: bogus how? equalp works on arrays 2014-06-25T18:11:36Z jasom: Bicyclidine: not character arrays 2014-06-25T18:11:37Z stassats: bogusly 2014-06-25T18:11:40Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-25T18:11:49Z fragamus joined #lisp 2014-06-25T18:11:50Z Bicyclidine: k 2014-06-25T18:11:53Z stassats: Bicyclidine: (equalp #("a") #("A")) => T 2014-06-25T18:12:00Z stassats: and (equal #("a") #("a")) => NIL 2014-06-25T18:12:08Z Bicyclidine: yeah the case ignorance is a bit we... oh. 2014-06-25T18:12:31Z jasom: I think the standard does not provide a function which returns true if two objects are similar, correct? 2014-06-25T18:12:37Z stassats: well, it makes sense if it were exactly like equal, only plus case insensitivity 2014-06-25T18:12:39Z Bicyclidine: no. 2014-06-25T18:12:45Z Bicyclidine: I mean, yes, you are correct. 2014-06-25T18:12:46Z stassats: but it's not, which really sucks 2014-06-25T18:13:05Z Bicyclidine: Partly because similarity is defined between objects that don't exist in the same image. Kinda. 2014-06-25T18:13:12Z jasom has written his own equal that recurs into arrays before; it's a pain. 2014-06-25T18:13:41Z jasom: Bicyclidine: I could write a function that handles similarity for everythign except structure-object and standard-object 2014-06-25T18:13:50Z Bicyclidine: Yeah. I've actually done that myself. 2014-06-25T18:13:52Z prxq: jasom: what's the issue? 2014-06-25T18:14:09Z stassats: it is also (equal 3.0 3) => NIL, -p => T 2014-06-25T18:14:11Z Bicyclidine: But the way it's actually defined is that an object in the loaded image is "similar" to an object in the compiled code, and those are sort of not comparable in code. 2014-06-25T18:14:25Z Bicyclidine: i do not like how weird compile-file is 2014-06-25T18:15:41Z stassats: well, it would make sense to make a revision without the 80s performance mindset 2014-06-25T18:15:52Z stassats: too bad nobody will 2014-06-25T18:16:09Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-06-25T18:20:38Z stassats` joined #lisp 2014-06-25T18:20:49Z moore33 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-25T18:20:57Z stassats`: one thing, #S doesn't work with custom constructors 2014-06-25T18:21:19Z stassats`: which is a bit funny, (make-instance (defstruct (x (:constructor make-x (z))) z)) => #S(X :Z NIL) 2014-06-25T18:21:25Z Joreji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T18:21:33Z stassats`: yet, #S(X :Z NIL), "The X structure does not have a default constructor." 2014-06-25T18:21:34Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-25T18:23:04Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-25T18:24:07Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2014-06-25T18:24:08Z bocaneri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T18:26:16Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-25T18:29:32Z stassats`: and arguably, ccl could handle constants better, something like (load-time-value +c+ t) would easily work 2014-06-25T18:29:49Z stassats`: if it's undumpble, that is 2014-06-25T18:30:38Z Denommus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T18:30:51Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-25T18:31:39Z wz1000 joined #lisp 2014-06-25T18:31:53Z matija quit (Quit: internet timeout) 2014-06-25T18:31:56Z tbarletz joined #lisp 2014-06-25T18:32:27Z DataLinkD2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T18:32:43Z DataLinkDroid 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2014-06-25T21:08:24Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-06-25T21:08:33Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-25T21:08:49Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-25T21:10:45Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-25T21:14:14Z knob quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-25T21:15:36Z joast quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-25T21:15:47Z heddwch joined #lisp 2014-06-25T21:19:04Z aksr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-25T21:20:33Z nug700 joined #lisp 2014-06-25T21:22:30Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-25T21:24:44Z otwieracz: Hi guys. 2014-06-25T21:24:57Z otwieracz: You have any idea how to program serial port with SBCL and without stty? 2014-06-25T21:25:08Z otwieracz: I mean, opening and setting port right on the lisp side. 2014-06-25T21:25:43Z heddwch joined #lisp 2014-06-25T21:28:09Z Shinmera quit (Quit: ZzZz) 2014-06-25T21:29:49Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-25T21:30:03Z heddwch quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-25T21:31:18Z Bike: through your os, probably? 2014-06-25T21:31:46Z moore33 joined #lisp 2014-06-25T21:31:46Z joast joined #lisp 2014-06-25T21:33:22Z Code_Man` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T21:34:04Z Nizumzen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-25T21:38:06Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-06-25T21:39:24Z ramkrsna quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2014-06-25T21:39:56Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2014-06-25T21:39:56Z ramkrsna quit (Changing host) 2014-06-25T21:39:56Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2014-06-25T21:41:00Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-25T21:41:24Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T21:43:03Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-25T21:44:52Z jchochl__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T21:45:05Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2014-06-25T21:46:17Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2014-06-25T21:47:49Z Vivitron quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-25T21:49:47Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-06-25T21:50:03Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 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mean by "much"? 2014-06-25T22:17:09Z jasom: I was going to ask some questions, but I think I answered them by experimentation. 2014-06-25T22:17:11Z Sgeo joined #lisp 2014-06-25T22:17:23Z H4ns: ok. it works well for me whenever i use it. 2014-06-25T22:17:37Z jasom: It can deadlock if you don't have enough worker-threads 2014-06-25T22:18:09Z jasom: since it will not swap out tasks on workerthreads nor spawn more threads when all workers are blocked 2014-06-25T22:18:19Z H4ns: yeah. you can shoot yourself in the foot using bare bordaux-threads, too. 2014-06-25T22:18:45Z nipra quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-25T22:19:15Z H4ns: james lawrence has been very responsive when i had questions. 2014-06-25T22:19:26Z jasom: Can you use promises and such without the lparallel kernel? 2014-06-25T22:19:36Z H4ns: i have not tried. 2014-06-25T22:19:47Z jasom: I'll ask him then 2014-06-25T22:19:57Z antoszka: does lparallel use bordeaux-threads behind the scenes or provide its own portability layer for various implementations? 2014-06-25T22:20:19Z jasom: antoszka: bordeaux-threads 2014-06-25T22:20:32Z antoszka: thx 2014-06-25T22:23:14Z raschwell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-25T22:23:46Z raschwell joined #lisp 2014-06-25T22:24:22Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-25T22:25:45Z jasom: which reminds me, I need to submit a PR to bordeaux-threads 2014-06-25T22:26:27Z Vivitron joined #lisp 2014-06-25T22:27:34Z jasom: H4ns: it seems like it should be possible to use chain and promises to block on either a queue or another promise, but I haven't quite figured out how. 2014-06-25T22:27:42Z Vivitron: Jasom: you've probably seen it already but lparallel.org has some nice documentation 2014-06-25T22:27:49Z jasom: Vivitron: open right now 2014-06-25T22:28:03Z jasom: Vivitron: chain is only described by example though 2014-06-25T22:29:34Z Malice quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-25T22:30:54Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 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Compared to c++ I would say memory-safety and improved metaprogramming are two big ones 2014-06-25T23:24:16Z p_l: it can fit better into the problem you're dealing with 2014-06-25T23:24:19Z p_l: CLOS is *very nice* 2014-06-25T23:24:19Z quasus: whartung: +1 2014-06-25T23:24:23Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2014-06-25T23:24:37Z p_l: access to compiler etc. all the time can be nice as well 2014-06-25T23:24:38Z pripyat: do i need to learn advanced math before learning lisp? 2014-06-25T23:24:41Z jasom: oh, and a non-broken error-system 2014-06-25T23:24:45Z quasus: pripyat: no 2014-06-25T23:24:46Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-25T23:24:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-06-25T23:24:46Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-25T23:24:46Z jasom: pripyat: no 2014-06-25T23:24:58Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-25T23:25:00Z whartung: Lisp math is simpler than C++ -- we don't have precedance :D 2014-06-25T23:25:32Z p_l: pripyat: Common Lisp is very... practical language, just remember that the standard library is a bit older (though tbh more featureful than C's) 2014-06-25T23:25:50Z pripyat: how much time does it take to learn the basics? 2014-06-25T23:25:50Z p_l: it was the "industrial language" in the lisp family :) 2014-06-25T23:26:12Z whartung: depnds on which basics you're learning. 2014-06-25T23:26:13Z quasus: in about a year you'll be quite fluent 2014-06-25T23:26:42Z p_l: if you know a "common" programming language already, I recommend PCL 2014-06-25T23:26:48Z p_l: minion: tell pripyat about pcl 2014-06-25T23:26:48Z minion: pripyat: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2014-06-25T23:26:48Z whartung: really depends on your domain, since most modern apps are driven by their domains and the APIs they're intereacting with rather than your own code. 2014-06-25T23:27:07Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-25T23:27:27Z pripyat: thanx for the book 2014-06-25T23:27:46Z quasus: ansi common lisp by Graham is also nice 2014-06-25T23:28:00Z quasus: unfortunately, only illegal copies are available online 2014-06-25T23:28:10Z p_l: Graham has his indiosyncracies... and well, PCL is available legally online 2014-06-25T23:28:12Z whartung: ACL is excellent, it's more "Lisp about Lisp" than PCL. PCL is more, well, practical. 2014-06-25T23:28:35Z replcated joined #lisp 2014-06-25T23:29:17Z jasom: pripyat: do you have any programming experience? 2014-06-25T23:29:26Z pripyat: yeah 2014-06-25T23:29:41Z jasom: okay, then PCL is a decent intro. It assumes you already know how to program in general. 2014-06-25T23:29:49Z pripyat: but i don't get what lisp can do and other languages can't 2014-06-25T23:30:00Z jasom: pripyat: in one sense, nothing 2014-06-25T23:30:05Z whartung: I can be more expressive. 2014-06-25T23:30:11Z whartung: *it 2014-06-25T23:30:19Z drmeiste_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-25T23:30:21Z jasom: (since you can do anything in any turing complete language) 2014-06-25T23:30:22Z whartung: but doesn't necessarily have to be. 2014-06-25T23:30:28Z pripyat: im gonna learn it then. i have to see for myself 2014-06-25T23:30:48Z replcated quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-06-25T23:31:14Z Guest351O2 joined #lisp 2014-06-25T23:31:48Z jasom: pripyat: here's a perl programmer's perspective on one unique feature of lisp http://lists.warhead.org.uk/pipermail/iwe/2005-July/000130.html 2014-06-25T23:32:13Z phadthai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-25T23:32:20Z phadthai joined #lisp 2014-06-25T23:32:47Z whartung: and we won'l link a prominents lisp user's perspective on Perl :) 2014-06-25T23:32:48Z pripyat: thanx guys i gotta go 2014-06-25T23:32:55Z pripyat: see ya 2014-06-25T23:32:56Z pripyat quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-25T23:34:56Z replcated joined #lisp 2014-06-25T23:36:31Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-25T23:40:43Z replcated quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-06-25T23:41:13Z drmeiste_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-25T23:45:19Z mhd quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-25T23:45:19Z mhd quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-25T23:46:38Z nialo joined #lisp 2014-06-25T23:47:38Z replcated joined #lisp 2014-06-25T23:49:30Z segv- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-25T23:55:03Z ltbarcly quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-25T23:59:05Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2014-06-25T23:59:47Z clop quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-25T23:59:49Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-26T00:02:12Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-26T00:16:11Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-26T00:17:53Z _schulte_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-26T00:25:37Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-26T00:27:47Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-26T00:29:01Z zz_karupa is now known as karupa 2014-06-26T00:31:09Z clop2 joined #lisp 2014-06-26T00:34:55Z kslt1 joined #lisp 2014-06-26T00:43:55Z pillton quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-26T00:52:00Z lduros quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-26T00:52:22Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-26T00:52:31Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-06-26T00:54:08Z MjrTom quit (Quit: Planet Earth is blue, and there's nothing I can do) 2014-06-26T00:54:27Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-26T00:55:02Z Guest351O2 quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-26T00:58:41Z drmeiste_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-26T00:59:54Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-26T01:03:07Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-26T01:03:40Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2014-06-26T01:04:03Z drmeiste_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T01:09:08Z bhyde` joined #lisp 2014-06-26T01:09:19Z bhyde` left #lisp 2014-06-26T01:09:41Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T01:16:58Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-26T01:17:09Z bhyde: i've been tempted by the idea i could use swank without of slime. i've played with the swank-client (a QL system) ... are there other things I should look at? 2014-06-26T01:17:54Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2014-06-26T01:18:50Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-06-26T01:19:15Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2014-06-26T01:19:15Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-06-26T01:19:38Z Sgeo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-26T01:19:59Z Sgeo joined #lisp 2014-06-26T01:22:26Z sirdancealot joined #lisp 2014-06-26T01:22:46Z leo2007 joined #lisp 2014-06-26T01:23:04Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2014-06-26T01:23:14Z Xach: bhyde: conium does the opposite, i think. a swank without swank. 2014-06-26T01:26:06Z ovidnis quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-26T01:26:32Z bhyde: Xach: interesting 2014-06-26T01:28:39Z Xach is going to be in the boston area tomorrow 2014-06-26T01:30:55Z bhyde son's graduated from MECA he may never visit Portland again, it's sad. 2014-06-26T01:31:37Z clop2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-26T01:32:00Z Xach: I will lobby for an ILC in downtown Portland. 2014-06-26T01:32:07Z Xach: Or maybe an ECLM, or MCLM. 2014-06-26T01:32:21Z bhyde: it looks a bit like swank has two clients, and conium has zero :) 2014-06-26T01:33:08Z pillton joined #lisp 2014-06-26T01:34:40Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-06-26T01:35:35Z Xach: life just isn't fair. 2014-06-26T01:36:13Z chu joined #lisp 2014-06-26T01:36:50Z bhyde: indeed, but shall we attempt to get some people together to have dinner with Xach tomorrow evening? 2014-06-26T01:38:36Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-06-26T01:39:23Z clop joined #lisp 2014-06-26T01:40:53Z Xach: I'm afraid I won't be down long enough. Heading back north at 5:40. 2014-06-26T01:42:43Z harish joined #lisp 2014-06-26T01:42:49Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-26T01:43:57Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-26T01:44:40Z bhyde: ah, good old - 687 ... or as we like to say the odd go north 2014-06-26T01:45:00Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-26T01:45:12Z clop quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-26T01:45:34Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-06-26T01:49:44Z raschwell quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-06-26T01:52:13Z Xach: boo 2014-06-26T01:53:13Z bhyde: today's time waster: https://registry.hub.docker.com/u/bhyde/crate-of-ccl/ 2014-06-26T01:54:01Z p_l: nice 2014-06-26T01:54:09Z p_l: was just thinking of something related, but with SBCL 2014-06-26T01:54:46Z bhyde: p_l you probably noticed https://registry.hub.docker.com/u/nlamirault/commonlisp/ 2014-06-26T01:54:54Z p_l: not yet 2014-06-26T01:55:00Z p_l: I was mainly fighting docker in some areas 2014-06-26T01:55:47Z bhyde: yes, fighting does appear to be a common syndrome :) 2014-06-26T01:57:02Z t0ryzal joined #lisp 2014-06-26T01:57:07Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-26T01:57:39Z didi` joined #lisp 2014-06-26T01:57:46Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-26T01:58:48Z didi`: Is (defun (setf ...) ...) and (defsetf ...) the same? 2014-06-26T01:58:55Z clop joined #lisp 2014-06-26T02:01:02Z bhyde: didi`: I don't know, defsetf predates the (to my eye) odd (defun (setf ..) ...) syntax; so maybe one is now rewritten into the other. 2014-06-26T02:01:39Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-26T02:01:56Z Acheront` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-26T02:02:10Z Acheront` joined #lisp 2014-06-26T02:03:02Z didi`: bhyde: Interesting. 2014-06-26T02:03:03Z t0ryzal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-26T02:03:34Z jrm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-26T02:03:48Z jrm joined #lisp 2014-06-26T02:04:27Z echo-area joined #lisp 2014-06-26T02:04:37Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-26T02:05:21Z phf: Is there something in quicklisp to sanitize broken uri's before feeding them to puri:parse? (Or a more fuzzy uri parser) 2014-06-26T02:05:36Z frkout quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-26T02:06:13Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-06-26T02:06:26Z Xach: didi`: they are both related to setf, but they aren't the same. 2014-06-26T02:08:04Z samebchase quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T02:08:37Z otwieracz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-26T02:08:58Z samebchase joined #lisp 2014-06-26T02:13:56Z didi`: Xach: Hum. I can't seem to find a page describing (defun (setf ...) ...) on HyperSpec. Is there one? 2014-06-26T02:15:19Z otwieracz joined #lisp 2014-06-26T02:16:44Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2014-06-26T02:17:10Z frkout_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-26T02:17:38Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2014-06-26T02:17:42Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T02:19:12Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T02:23:33Z clop quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-26T02:24:00Z Bike: somewhere in the description of setf 2014-06-26T02:24:15Z Bike: the entry on defsetf will make it clear that it's different, though 2014-06-26T02:24:43Z DataLinkDroid quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-26T02:26:10Z KCL_ joined #lisp 2014-06-26T02:28:23Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2014-06-26T02:29:18Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-26T02:29:49Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-26T02:30:56Z didi`: Bike: Oh, OK. 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MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2014-06-26T08:26:33Z H4ns: what's the easiest way, in sbcl, to transform a four-byte ub8 array (#(11 0 0 0)) into the corresponding integer (11)? 2014-06-26T08:28:00Z eni quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-26T08:28:03Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-26T08:29:40Z sz0 joined #lisp 2014-06-26T08:29:51Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-26T08:31:31Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-26T08:31:42Z H4ns: binary-types does the job. never mind. 2014-06-26T08:33:28Z hlavaty joined #lisp 2014-06-26T08:34:12Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T08:37:18Z sz0 joined #lisp 2014-06-26T08:37:27Z clop joined #lisp 2014-06-26T08:37:31Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-26T08:41:49Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-26T08:43:46Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-06-26T08:52:27Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-06-26T08:52:54Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2014-06-26T08:52:56Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-26T08:53:07Z fridim_ 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EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-26T13:03:45Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-06-26T13:06:05Z clop joined #lisp 2014-06-26T13:08:50Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-26T13:11:44Z ndrei_ joined #lisp 2014-06-26T13:13:56Z pranavrc quit 2014-06-26T13:14:21Z pjb: Guthur: the answer to your question is: yes. 2014-06-26T13:14:36Z t0ryzal joined #lisp 2014-06-26T13:14:53Z sysfault quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-26T13:15:05Z pjb: I can be 100% sure, because to write it, the author had to work it through. 2014-06-26T13:18:19Z Guthur: pjb: but there was an implied target of "anyone" within this channel 2014-06-26T13:18:30Z Guthur: of course if the author is here that would be even better 2014-06-26T13:18:32Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-26T13:18:42Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-26T13:18:55Z t0ryzal quit (Quit: t0ryzal) 2014-06-26T13:20:49Z arbscht quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-26T13:21:50Z aksr quit (Quit: aksr) 2014-06-26T13:21:58Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-06-26T13:22:36Z aksr joined 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2014-06-26T14:34:21Z puchacz joined #lisp 2014-06-26T14:34:47Z puchacz: hi, :after methods - the most specific goes first, doesn't it? 2014-06-26T14:35:14Z oleo: it's vice versa to the rest..... 2014-06-26T14:35:36Z oleo: yes 2014-06-26T14:35:45Z puchacz: ok, so 2014-06-26T14:35:54Z puchacz: :before - from least specific to most specific 2014-06-26T14:36:04Z YDJX quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T14:36:12Z puchacz: :after - from most specific to least specifc 2014-06-26T14:36:21Z puchacz: it even makes sense :-) 2014-06-26T14:36:32Z oleo: jep 2014-06-26T14:36:41Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-26T14:37:24Z oleo: otherwise you'd leave crumbs after you, and then..... 2014-06-26T14:37:33Z oleo: the whitch would find you ..... 2014-06-26T14:37:33Z juanlas: don’t forget :around 2014-06-26T14:37:55Z oleo: and force you to have sex with her..... 2014-06-26T14:38:02Z oleo: lol 2014-06-26T14:39:17Z Xach: oleo: go away 2014-06-26T14:39:21Z oleo: hahahaha 2014-06-26T14:40:22Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-26T14:47:48Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2014-06-26T14:48:14Z puchacz: btw, is there any fundamental change that is reflected in major number change in sbcl version, to 1.2 ? 2014-06-26T14:49:03Z pjb: There can't be: there's no new standard! 2014-06-26T14:49:06Z pjb: :-) 2014-06-26T14:49:21Z YDJX joined #lisp 2014-06-26T14:50:11Z pjb: For all intents and purposes, it should make no difference whether you use sbcl 1.2, sbcl 0.8, clisp 2.49 or ccl 1.7. Modulo the bugs, they're all CL implementations. 2014-06-26T14:50:12Z puchacz: true :-) 2014-06-26T14:52:07Z Xach: puchacz: port to ARM 2014-06-26T14:52:22Z puchacz: ah 2014-06-26T14:52:25Z Xach: you cannot use sbcl 0.8 on arm 2014-06-26T14:52:49Z puchacz: forgive naive question, does it have anything to do with android? 2014-06-26T14:52:57Z mossplix joined #lisp 2014-06-26T14:53:12Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2014-06-26T14:53:35Z Xach: I don't know. 2014-06-26T14:54:17Z puchacz: so more generally, is there a way to develop on android with lisp easily? 2014-06-26T14:54:23Z oleo: what's the best way to process a list elem wise, and if you find a list recurse deep down into it to extract it's member which are also supposed to be lists ? 2014-06-26T14:54:30Z dlowe: puchacz: not common lisp 2014-06-26T14:54:39Z dlowe: there are jvm schemes that work 2014-06-26T14:54:42Z Xach: puchacz: mocl, maybe. 2014-06-26T14:54:45Z Xach hasn't tried it 2014-06-26T14:54:50Z dlowe: oh, yes. mocl 2014-06-26T14:55:12Z Xach: oleo: I recommend looking at a book. 2014-06-26T14:55:15Z puchacz: Xach, I remember checking their webpage some time ago, it was very uninformative.... 2014-06-26T14:55:30Z oleo: Xach: which one would you suppose ? 2014-06-26T14:56:30Z Xach: oleo: I liked Paradigms of AI Programming 2014-06-26T14:56:44Z Xach: puchacz: perhaps an email would help clarify any questions you might have 2014-06-26T14:56:53Z Xach: oleo: and Practical Common Lisp 2014-06-26T14:57:10Z puchacz: I can try..... I hope it is not a scam. They don't even have demo version 2014-06-26T14:57:18Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-26T14:57:24Z ndrei_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-26T14:57:44Z alchemis7: Is there any automated way to remove old cache fasl file? 2014-06-26T14:57:59Z Shinmera: Xach: You can't develop with mocl on android, you can only develop /for/ android with it. 2014-06-26T14:58:14Z puchacz: given how difficult it is to implement relatively bug free, usable and fast common lisp, I am suspicious. 2014-06-26T14:58:22Z alchemis7: I mean i want to clean this directory -> ~/.cache/common-lisp 2014-06-26T14:58:32Z puchacz: Shinmera: yes, this is what I would like to do. Develop on PC for android 2014-06-26T14:58:35Z Xach: puchacz: It's not a scam. It's a real project/product. 2014-06-26T14:58:51Z Shinmera: puchacz: then mocl is your best bet. 2014-06-26T14:58:53Z Xach: alchemis7: no 2014-06-26T14:59:48Z Xach: alchemis7: well, you could use cron 2014-06-26T15:00:13Z alchemis7: i've just found ql-dist:clean method, it's pretty neat way. 2014-06-26T15:00:25Z Xach: alchemis7: it does not do anything to ~/.cache/common-lisp/ 2014-06-26T15:00:46Z alchemis7: yeah.. i've checked that 2014-06-26T15:00:51Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-26T15:01:09Z Shinmera: alchemis7: question: Why do you want to automatically clean the cache? 2014-06-26T15:01:55Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-26T15:02:44Z alchemis7: hmm not automatically exactly... i want to apply ql-dist:clean method-like to .cache 2014-06-26T15:02:59Z Shinmera: again, why 2014-06-26T15:03:03Z alchemis7: kind of paranoid thing ;) 2014-06-26T15:03:11Z splittist: rm ? 2014-06-26T15:03:26Z JuanitoJons joined #lisp 2014-06-26T15:04:03Z sheilong quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-26T15:04:31Z alchemis7: i will never use outdated fasl, but it's gonna there still 2014-06-26T15:05:21Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-26T15:06:11Z magistr joined #lisp 2014-06-26T15:06:58Z alchemis7: and i have no concrete reason, just i'm learning-guy now 2014-06-26T15:09:02Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-26T15:09:03Z ndrei_ joined #lisp 2014-06-26T15:09:07Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-26T15:09:22Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-26T15:09:28Z stassats: puchacz: sbcl 1.2.1 will have something to do with android, but not much in a really useful way 2014-06-26T15:09:49Z puchacz: ok, thanks. 2014-06-26T15:10:02Z puchacz: anybody tried mocl? 2014-06-26T15:10:31Z puchacz: I really do not understand how a company could have rolled a solid, usable CL out of nowhere..... 2014-06-26T15:10:43Z JuanitoJons quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T15:10:44Z puchacz: given how much teething problems other implementations have 2014-06-26T15:11:01Z JuanitoJons joined #lisp 2014-06-26T15:11:03Z puchacz: abcl for example 2014-06-26T15:11:14Z stassats: i guess they were motivated by money 2014-06-26T15:11:28Z stassats: nobody works full time on ABCL 2014-06-26T15:11:52Z foom: Well, it's a little odd to make a lisp runtime, if your primary motivation is money. :p 2014-06-26T15:12:04Z Xach: puchacz: it's not out of nowhere, it's based on some previous implementation 2014-06-26T15:12:10Z Xach: rainer joswig has written about it a bit 2014-06-26T15:12:18Z Xach: some german project for whole-program compilation 2014-06-26T15:12:47Z Xach: The wukix guy, wes, has given videotaped presentations on why he did it, with some how as well. Check the ELS/ECLM 2013 videos. 2014-06-26T15:13:00Z foom: I hope people starting companies to write/support lisp runtimes have money as a secondary motivation, after the primary of working on cool compiler projects. :) 2014-06-26T15:13:14Z stassats: foom: money is the primary reason to work full time on it 2014-06-26T15:13:33Z seangrove joined #lisp 2014-06-26T15:15:06Z foom: Sure, that's a good motivation for an employee to work on it if you pay them, but not so much for the owner of the company to start the company in the first place; I can't imagine it being a big money-maker. I mean, you could start a company that lets you only send an IM with a fixed two-character content, instead. 2014-06-26T15:15:12Z Guest30035 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-26T15:15:33Z foom: *that'll* get you millions 2014-06-26T15:16:47Z foom: ...but it's a stupid waste of time. A lisp runtime for iOS is a lot cooler. :) 2014-06-26T15:17:20Z arbscht joined #lisp 2014-06-26T15:17:22Z Shinmera: alchemis7: http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view?id=53# 2014-06-26T15:18:17Z test1600 joined #lisp 2014-06-26T15:20:48Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-26T15:21:12Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-26T15:21:52Z YDJX quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-26T15:23:13Z Guest30035 joined #lisp 2014-06-26T15:25:31Z stassats: foom: they can write the said client in the new implementation, and get both! 2014-06-26T15:25:36Z Xach: Of course, you can configure asdf to put fasls somewhere else. And last I checked, it was not easy to find out where that might be. 2014-06-26T15:25:51Z foom: stassats: true! 2014-06-26T15:25:54Z Shinmera: Xach: that's where asdf:*user-cache* comes in 2014-06-26T15:26:05Z alchemis7: Shinmera: thx i'm checking. 2014-06-26T15:27:21Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2014-06-26T15:27:37Z Shinmera: Xach: I don't know if anyone hacks asdf to use something other than *user-cache* to store the fasls 2014-06-26T15:27:54Z gingerale joined #lisp 2014-06-26T15:28:05Z Shinmera: Xach: If they do I'm sure they can set up their own scripts. 2014-06-26T15:28:30Z alchemis7: hmm system-source-directory return a latest dist fasl directory 2014-06-26T15:28:31Z momo-reina joined #lisp 2014-06-26T15:28:44Z YDJX joined #lisp 2014-06-26T15:28:50Z Xach: Shinmera: the double-colons scare me. 2014-06-26T15:29:01Z stassats: asdf: scares me 2014-06-26T15:29:03Z Shinmera: no, asdf:system-source-directory returns the location of the asd file 2014-06-26T15:29:57Z Xach: stassats: just :wilden up yourself 2014-06-26T15:29:59Z Shinmera: Xach: It should probably be avoided but I didn't want to bother looking up if there's anything external to do it 2014-06-26T15:31:38Z stassats: (asdf:resolve-location asdf:*user-cache*)? 2014-06-26T15:32:21Z Shinmera: that works, edited the paste. 2014-06-26T15:33:15Z Xach: OK 2014-06-26T15:34:48Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-06-26T15:34:51Z stassats: the .asd can include pathnames outside the directory, except that would be pretty stupid 2014-06-26T15:35:00Z stassats: ../package.lisp 2014-06-26T15:35:12Z YDJX quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-26T15:35:50Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-06-26T15:35:53Z Shinmera: of course one could come up with a multitude of corner cases that this doesn't cover 2014-06-26T15:35:58Z alchemis7: Shinmera: If i understood correctly, i would have to use your code before ql:update-dist 2014-06-26T15:36:11Z clop joined #lisp 2014-06-26T15:36:20Z stassats: i'm trying to come up with a corner case which will turn this into rm -rf / 2014-06-26T15:36:46Z stassats: alchemis7: just nuke the whole cache directory by hand 2014-06-26T15:37:53Z alchemis7: yep, that would be more effective ;P i have emacs dired power 2014-06-26T15:37:58Z Okasu quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-26T15:38:05Z Shinmera: stassats: *user-cache* / and an asd file in / ? 2014-06-26T15:38:38Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-26T15:38:44Z stassats: Shinmera: that doesn't occur normally 2014-06-26T15:39:26Z stassats: and, (setf (car (pathname-directory dir)) :relative) is a no-no 2014-06-26T15:39:48Z xificurC quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-26T15:40:20Z Shinmera: I would be interested in knowing what the proper way is to merge two directory pathnames 2014-06-26T15:41:27Z clop quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-26T15:41:49Z innertracks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-26T15:41:51Z stassats: (make-pathname :directory (cons :relative (cdr (pathname-directory dir))) :defaults ...) 2014-06-26T15:42:41Z Shinmera: asdf:system-source-directory returns a fresh pathname 2014-06-26T15:42:47Z stassats: doesn't matter 2014-06-26T15:43:01Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-26T15:44:26Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-26T15:44:55Z stassats: found a bug in ccl, incidentally 2014-06-26T15:45:11Z stassats: (make-pathname :directory "x") should be #p"/x/" 2014-06-26T15:45:17Z stassats: ccl gives x/ 2014-06-26T15:45:34Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-06-26T15:46:26Z momo-reina quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-26T15:46:49Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-06-26T15:47:41Z YDJX joined #lisp 2014-06-26T15:53:55Z lambda left #lisp 2014-06-26T15:54:23Z YDJX quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-26T15:55:08Z clop joined #lisp 2014-06-26T15:55:32Z Oberon4278 joined #lisp 2014-06-26T15:58:14Z seangrov` joined #lisp 2014-06-26T15:58:44Z fortitude: I found a pathname bug in sbcl 1.1.12 the other day, but I swear it wasn't there a few months ago (haven't updated sbcl in forever, either) 2014-06-26T16:00:03Z stassats: the suspense is killing me 2014-06-26T16:00:22Z fortitude: the issue is :home components in the directory 2014-06-26T16:01:13Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T16:01:27Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-26T16:01:39Z fortitude: (namestring (merge-pathnames #P"~/foo/")) => "C:/~/foo/" 2014-06-26T16:02:13Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T16:02:22Z fortitude: which is fine, except that (native-namestring (make-pathname :directory '(:absolute :home))) => "C:\\Users\\mts\\" 2014-06-26T16:02:48Z fortitude: so if you try to do e.g. (truename #P"~/foo/"), it will try to probe "C:\\C:\\Users\\mts\\foo\\" 2014-06-26T16:02:53Z fortitude: this is on windows, obviously 2014-06-26T16:03:31Z stassats: can't reproduce 2014-06-26T16:04:37Z fortitude: can't say I'm surprised, since this wasn't an issue on the same setup a few months ago 2014-06-26T16:04:57Z stassats: well, i'm not surprised either, because i remember fixing it 2014-06-26T16:05:24Z stassats: but people lately don't bother to update before reporting bugs, i guess i should be happy that they report them at all 2014-06-26T16:06:00Z fortitude: I was planning to test this on my 1.1.20 build at home 2014-06-26T16:07:01Z fortitude: 1.1.12 is also still the latest version with an installer, which pretty much makes it "latest" on windows 2014-06-26T16:07:21Z stassats: is that so? 2014-06-26T16:07:35Z stassats: ah, people still use x86, i forget 2014-06-26T16:08:26Z fortitude: some VMs default to x86, and I suppose highly conservative folks might get scared by the yellow color of the 1.1.17 version 2014-06-26T16:08:50Z oGMo: stassats: heh yeah, i've had reports of crash issues on x86 that aren't on x86_64 2014-06-26T16:08:51Z stassats: i'll paint it green next time, it isn't any more unstable than x86 2014-06-26T16:09:12Z oGMo: i have yet to get around to trying to build a 32-bit VM to test 2014-06-26T16:11:02Z Ralt quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-26T16:20:13Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-26T16:27:03Z ramkrsna quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T16:33:22Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-26T16:33:38Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-26T16:35:37Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-26T16:35:43Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-26T16:42:53Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-26T16:43:15Z jasom: I saw people discussing mocl; I was told it was a CLiCC descendant 2014-06-26T16:43:47Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-06-26T16:44:22Z Guest30035 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-26T16:45:12Z e2xistz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-26T16:47:33Z arbscht quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T16:49:14Z drewc: lispworks is offering an Android/iOS native version on ARM in an alpha stage "according to their mailing list". So CCL and SBCL will run, LW can make a .apk, if you prefer a 'taking away some freedom' licence, clisp works as well. Do not have to cash to purchase mocl, so only know what I have experience using. 2014-06-26T16:50:24Z drewc: and only on tried on Android .... 1984 turns out to be 1984... so I avoid Apple in general. :) 2014-06-26T16:52:17Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-06-26T16:53:57Z jasom: Anyone know What's the raison d'etre for MKCL? i.e. why another KCL descendeant? 2014-06-26T16:54:25Z Xach: jasom: i don't remember the details, but it has to do with the development model & direction of ecl. 2014-06-26T16:55:17Z jasom: Xach: that's about all I could derive from their homepage; something like "like ECL, but in developed a modern and more contained manner" 2014-06-26T16:56:08Z jasom: oh, and I misspelled raison d'être apparently 2014-06-26T16:56:21Z drewc: AFAIK, MKCL is an "ECL really sucks and we cannot make patches for , so instead made it less snowdenized". 2014-06-26T16:56:26Z Xach: http://xach.livejournal.com/273220.html 2014-06-26T16:56:35Z dkcl: Ha, I didn't know the GCL mess wasn't even started by them - it's a KCL descendant as well 2014-06-26T16:56:50Z dkcl: "them" being GNU types, I suppose 2014-06-26T16:57:13Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T17:00:38Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-26T17:02:11Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2014-06-26T17:04:00Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-26T17:04:03Z stassats: the raison d'être of MKCL is to exit after three C-d, instead of 1 on ECL 2014-06-26T17:04:07Z stassats: and like on CCL 2014-06-26T17:04:12Z dkcl: Haha 2014-06-26T17:04:58Z fzappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-26T17:05:06Z stassats: i guess that's better than not exiting at all, like cmucl, but it's still annoying 2014-06-26T17:06:20Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-26T17:06:27Z Denommus` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-26T17:07:36Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-26T17:08:31Z Xach: trying to exit lisp is always a user error 2014-06-26T17:08:37Z Xach: lisp is life 2014-06-26T17:09:29Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-26T17:10:12Z nowhere_man_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-26T17:11:31Z didi: \o/ 2014-06-26T17:12:14Z stassats: smug life 2014-06-26T17:12:32Z lduros joined #lisp 2014-06-26T17:13:55Z stassats: something like http://www.knuckletattoos.co.uk/content/uploads/2014/06/9b52c3c9ed72f862f48a65adf987c802_tattoo1.png 2014-06-26T17:14:37Z dkcl: You could be more old-school and go for http://matt.might.net/articles/compiling-up-to-lambda-calculus/images/y_combinator.jpg 2014-06-26T17:14:50Z stassats: too nerdy 2014-06-26T17:14:52Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-26T17:14:59Z dkcl: :P 2014-06-26T17:15:32Z dkcl: The rest of the world would think we're gangstery garbage collectors 2014-06-26T17:16:13Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-26T17:16:21Z jasom: Is it possible to startup sbcl with no asdf/uiop? 2014-06-26T17:16:30Z jasom: sbcl -norc still seems to have it 2014-06-26T17:16:48Z jasom: nevermind that's the wrong option for sbcl 2014-06-26T17:17:45Z Xach: sbcl --no-userinit --no-sysint should do it, as long as it's not in the core file 2014-06-26T17:17:46Z pjb: stassats: bravo for finding a bug in ccl. Unfortunately, finding bugs in pathnames is worth 0 gold, since there are so many… 2014-06-26T17:17:52Z Xach: sorry, --no-sysinit 2014-06-26T17:18:06Z Shinmera: jasom: you sure it isn't just quicklisp that loads asdf? 2014-06-26T17:18:47Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-06-26T17:18:55Z e2xistz joined #lisp 2014-06-26T17:21:56Z jasom: heh, so you can't pull in sb-bsd-sockets if you downgrade asdf. (I was trying to play with Babel2, which requires ASDF 2.2) 2014-06-26T17:22:19Z sysfault quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-26T17:22:32Z stassats: would babel3 support asdf3? 2014-06-26T17:23:19Z fiveop joined #lisp 2014-06-26T17:23:20Z stassats: jasom: what about, load sb-bsd-sockets, downgrade asdf? 2014-06-26T17:23:33Z tensorpudding quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T17:23:53Z jasom: stassats: it doesn't seem to work correctly if I load asdf first (hence the --no-userinit) 2014-06-26T17:24:09Z stassats: just fix babel2 then 2014-06-26T17:24:09Z shridhar quit (Quit: shridhar) 2014-06-26T17:24:15Z jasom: it uses its own version of ASDF along with usocket, et. al. 2014-06-26T17:24:25Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-26T17:25:44Z jasom: hmm, if I avoid their version of ASDF things actually seem to work better 2014-06-26T17:26:24Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-26T17:26:46Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-26T17:26:56Z stassats: so, they don't suppose somebody else would use this babel2 thing? 2014-06-26T17:27:58Z pjb: I'm not yet finished using babel, and there's already a babel2? 2014-06-26T17:28:08Z dkcl: Haha 2014-06-26T17:28:23Z stassats: or they don't suppose that people using babel actually use common lisp 2014-06-26T17:28:31Z dkcl: pjb: I'm surprised that's not a recurring nightmare for me! 2014-06-26T17:30:59Z segv- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-26T17:33:14Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-26T17:35:53Z jasom: stassats: I got it all working, I just had to replace the step of "load our included asdf" with (require 'asdf) 2014-06-26T17:36:23Z stassats: does it still load its own usocket? 2014-06-26T17:36:52Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-26T17:36:59Z jasom: stassats: yes 2014-06-26T17:36:59Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-06-26T17:37:19Z jasom: stassats: well I assume so, since I don't think I have a usocket installed 2014-06-26T17:37:39Z MjrTom quit (Quit: Planet Earth is blue, and there's nothing I can do) 2014-06-26T17:37:43Z jasom: stassats: it sets up its own source registry on initialization 2014-06-26T17:38:27Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-26T17:38:53Z segv- joined #lisp 2014-06-26T17:40:23Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2014-06-26T17:41:34Z jasom: hmm, I wonder what it uses for the ajax web-interface 2014-06-26T17:42:16Z jasom: ah, http://martin-loetzsch.de/ht-simple-ajax/ 2014-06-26T17:42:46Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-26T17:43:43Z jamesf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-26T17:43:52Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2014-06-26T17:44:24Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-26T17:51:41Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-26T17:53:47Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-26T17:56:12Z drmeiste_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-26T17:56:21Z foreignFunction joined #lisp 2014-06-26T17:58:09Z nowhere_man_ joined #lisp 2014-06-26T17:59:25Z Guest30035 joined #lisp 2014-06-26T18:00:19Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2014-06-26T18:00:19Z ramkrsna quit (Changing host) 2014-06-26T18:00:19Z ramkrsna joined #lisp 2014-06-26T18:01:03Z oleo: fewwwwwww 2014-06-26T18:03:55Z pjb: oleo: manyyyyyyy 2014-06-26T18:04:39Z oleo: got collecting subnodes i think.... 2014-06-26T18:05:30Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-26T18:07:18Z davazp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-26T18:07:49Z oleo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143010 2014-06-26T18:08:51Z Xach: oleo: what is a subnode? 2014-06-26T18:09:50Z spintronic joined #lisp 2014-06-26T18:10:09Z oleo: any () other than the toplevel () in my case i think..... 2014-06-26T18:10:19Z Xach: That is very bad code. 2014-06-26T18:10:22Z oleo: sublists is better i think... 2014-06-26T18:10:59Z oleo: Xach: i'm not employed by you! 2014-06-26T18:11:00Z oleo: lol 2014-06-26T18:12:30Z oleo: just learning man.... 2014-06-26T18:12:49Z Xach: How many more years do you think it will take? Would you consider learning in private? 2014-06-26T18:12:57Z Xach: Perhaps a personal tutor would work better. 2014-06-26T18:12:58Z oleo: in private ? 2014-06-26T18:12:58Z dkcl: Hahaha 2014-06-26T18:13:01Z oleo: lol 2014-06-26T18:13:23Z dkcl: Maybe someone should nominate Xach for sainthood 2014-06-26T18:13:29Z Xach: You have been in #lisp for many years and show very little progress. That is pretty frustrating. 2014-06-26T18:13:43Z oleo: i'm not 24h on code dude! 2014-06-26T18:13:45Z dkcl: You could call Quicklisp a miracle, too 2014-06-26T18:13:45Z Xach: You frequently write nonsense and share code that is terrible. 2014-06-26T18:14:07Z Xach: I wish there was a good way to make the situation better. 2014-06-26T18:14:11Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-06-26T18:14:11Z oleo: keep you comments fo youself please.... 2014-06-26T18:14:15Z Xach doesn't know what it might be 2014-06-26T18:14:27Z Xach: oleo: I wish you would extend me, and everyone else here, that courtesy first. 2014-06-26T18:14:32Z dkcl: oleo: I believe some people have asked for precisely that 2014-06-26T18:14:50Z oleo: no no nothing, noone asked anything..... 2014-06-26T18:15:07Z jasom: oleo: why did you publicly post something if you didn't want comments? 2014-06-26T18:15:16Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-26T18:15:23Z Bike: here, i'll ask you. if you're going to take years learning nothing at least don't bother us while you do so. 2014-06-26T18:15:40Z oleo: ok 2014-06-26T18:16:09Z oleo: you were all born with it not ?! 2014-06-26T18:16:13Z oleo: heh 2014-06-26T18:16:16Z dkcl: oleo: Are you aware of the distinction between technical and social channels? 2014-06-26T18:16:29Z oleo: not really.... 2014-06-26T18:16:39Z sirdancealot quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-26T18:17:18Z zolk3ri: Oh my. 2014-06-26T18:17:18Z wz1000 joined #lisp 2014-06-26T18:17:19Z dkcl: oleo: /join #ubuntu-offtopic, for instance. That's a social channel, and a pretty good example. People here don't want #lisp to become #ubuntu-offtopic 2014-06-26T18:17:26Z Bike: i'm pretty sure you've been on this channel longer than me, man. asking questions is fine but you have to acknowledge the answers. 2014-06-26T18:17:28Z dkcl: I can't blame them 2014-06-26T18:17:43Z jasom: #lispcafe is the social channel for this I think 2014-06-26T18:17:44Z oleo: i do acknowledge them with time.... 2014-06-26T18:18:02Z dkcl: #lisp is for discussion, not expression 2014-06-26T18:18:12Z quasus joined #lisp 2014-06-26T18:19:16Z oleo: make it work -> edit..... 2014-06-26T18:20:34Z dkcl starts missing Xah 2014-06-26T18:21:08Z nalkri joined #lisp 2014-06-26T18:21:36Z seangrov` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-26T18:22:21Z bocaneri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-26T18:24:04Z drewc is about to read c.l.l because, well, at least off-topic is gavino or something about Islam :P 2014-06-26T18:24:54Z Xach: My gnus has stopped working properly for usenet and I'm not sure how to reset it. :( 2014-06-26T18:25:13Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T18:25:33Z oleo hand Xach the medal! 2014-06-26T18:25:57Z drewc: I use pan, because of dl'ing from alt.binaries more than anything else. 2014-06-26T18:27:04Z mossplix quit (Quit: mossplix) 2014-06-26T18:27:08Z drewc: I have tried to use emacs for everything... it turns out that I have stopped save for editing code and SLIME, and Org Mode. 2014-06-26T18:27:48Z drewc apologizes for being offtopic himself and goes to read c.l.l. 2014-06-26T18:29:48Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-26T18:29:50Z orthecreedence joined #lisp 2014-06-26T18:29:58Z spintronic quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-26T18:31:25Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-26T18:32:13Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T18:32:53Z ramkrsna quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-26T18:37:03Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T18:37:14Z MjrTom`-` joined #lisp 2014-06-26T18:37:14Z MjrTom quit 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(*.net *.split) 2014-06-26T18:56:56Z MightyJoe quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-26T18:56:57Z sjl quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-26T18:56:57Z whartung quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-26T18:59:38Z Trenif joined #lisp 2014-06-26T18:59:49Z ferada joined #lisp 2014-06-26T19:00:30Z paddymahoney joined #lisp 2014-06-26T19:03:40Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2014-06-26T19:04:55Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-06-26T19:06:47Z space_cadet joined #lisp 2014-06-26T19:12:03Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T19:12:57Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-06-26T19:13:14Z space_cadet: how does one `use-package' and take symbols programatically? 2014-06-26T19:14:15Z Xach: space_cadet: I'd like to help but I don't understand the question 2014-06-26T19:14:39Z oleo: use package interns all the exported symbols of that package.... 2014-06-26T19:14:47Z Xach: No, it does not. 2014-06-26T19:15:25Z oleo: you right, it does not sorry...i confused.... 2014-06-26T19:15:43Z space_cadet: Xach: If I `use-package' and there is a name conflict, slime will prompt me to 'take-new', 'keep-old', etc. I'd like to clobber all existing symbols with new symbols. 2014-06-26T19:16:09Z oleo: there's a shadowing export.... 2014-06-26T19:16:14Z oleo: or import.... 2014-06-26T19:16:15Z Xach: space_cadet: that's not a normal situation to get into. did this arise during interactive development? 2014-06-26T19:16:38Z space_cadet: use of iterate and parenscript in the same codebase 2014-06-26T19:16:51Z space_cadet: well, same package 2014-06-26T19:17:31Z space_cadet: Xach: . 2014-06-26T19:17:56Z Xach: space_cadet: ok. i like to use shadowing in that situation. 2014-06-26T19:18:19Z Xach: space_cadet: you can choose to have parenscript's symbols available without a prefix, iterate's symbols available without a prefix, or both of them. 2014-06-26T19:18:35Z Xach: space_cadet: err, both of them prefixed 2014-06-26T19:18:41Z Xach: what would you want, for conflicting symbols? 2014-06-26T19:18:59Z tomaw is now known as 5EXABH90N 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rhetorical question. I can tell you how to write a defpackage form to make it work properly. 2014-06-26T19:20:17Z mhd joined #lisp 2014-06-26T19:20:47Z space_cadet: Xach: If it 2014-06-26T19:20:59Z space_cadet: 's in the docs for defpackages I'll just read those 2014-06-26T19:21:02Z Xach: space_cadet: you need only choose prefix strategies for conflicting symbols. 2014-06-26T19:21:29Z space_cadet: Xach: I understand. 2014-06-26T19:21:29Z Xach: there's no way around that if you'd like to inherit the external symbols from two packages with some overlap. 2014-06-26T19:22:00Z Intensity joined #lisp 2014-06-26T19:22:02Z space_cadet: Thanks for the help. 2014-06-26T19:22:06Z Xach: space_cadet: essentially you use shadowing-import to choose symbols from a particular package, or shadow to choose symbols from neither package 2014-06-26T19:22:21Z Xach: :shadowing-import-from or :shadow 2014-06-26T19:22:43Z matko quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-26T19:24:22Z nug700 joined #lisp 2014-06-26T19:27:23Z 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read returns the offset in characters, I need to know where to update my point in the octets 2014-06-26T22:13:50Z jasom: anyway I think I found it: string-size-in-octets 2014-06-26T22:14:04Z |3b|: yeah, was about to suggest that, though possibly not the most efficient way 2014-06-26T22:14:45Z pjb: vector-size-in-chars seems more useful. 2014-06-26T22:14:48Z |3b|: possibly better to READ from a gray stream that converts and keeps track at the same time, not sure if flexi-streams could give you that or not 2014-06-26T22:15:04Z pjb: along with a dichotomy… 2014-06-26T22:15:15Z jasom: |3b|: I can't really do that 2014-06-26T22:15:23Z jasom: and I need to convert to a string anyway 2014-06-26T22:15:46Z jasom: |3b|: oh I guess I could wrap the buffer with a gray-stream, if that's what you're suggesting 2014-06-26T22:15:49Z pjb: Then why do you ask your original question???? 2014-06-26T22:16:08Z |3b|: pjb: seemed like reasonable question to me 2014-06-26T22:16:19Z pjb: Not if you need to convert to a string anyway, no. 2014-06-26T22:16:35Z sz0 joined #lisp 2014-06-26T22:16:42Z |3b|: has octets, uses up some part measured in decoded characters, needs to translate that back to offset in original buffer 2014-06-26T22:16:48Z |3b|: that was assuming he did convert to a string 2014-06-26T22:17:33Z jasom: pjb: I didn't know that string-size-in-octets took an :end parameter 2014-06-26T22:17:43Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-26T22:17:56Z |3b|: jasom: yeah, flexistreams let you READ + READ-CHAR + READ-BYTE + READ-SEQUENCE from a buffer of octets 2014-06-26T22:18:37Z |3b|: which doesn't exactly get you an offset into the buffer, but does let you get the octets after the string easily 2014-06-26T22:19:27Z pjb: Also, do you consider only utf-8 or other random encodings? 2014-06-26T22:19:39Z |3b|: though it might have some function to get position in the buffer, don't remember 2014-06-26T22:19:44Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T22:19:50Z pjb: In the case of utf-8, characters start at octets with nul high order bits. 2014-06-26T22:22:42Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-26T22:25:42Z madalu joined #lisp 2014-06-26T22:25:49Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-26T22:28:51Z pjb: Probably, with half a dozen rules, you'd cover all the encodings you'd need. 2014-06-26T22:29:31Z eni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-26T22:30:02Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-26T22:30:12Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2014-06-26T22:33:14Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T22:38:52Z quasus: hi! 2014-06-26T22:39:00Z quasus: does anyone use slimv? 2014-06-26T22:39:16Z orthecreedence: i do 2014-06-26T22:39:23Z orthecreedence: all the time 2014-06-26T22:39:37Z orthecreedence: although i only use the REPL aspects, not really the paredit stuff 2014-06-26T22:39:41Z quasus: i can't figure out whether it's possible to load e. g. saved memory image 2014-06-26T22:39:50Z orthecreedence: oh hmm 2014-06-26T22:39:53Z orthecreedence: never done that 2014-06-26T22:40:10Z Sgeo joined #lisp 2014-06-26T22:40:35Z orthecreedence: i'm guessing you'd have to set your custom args into g:slimv_lisp ? 2014-06-26T22:41:30Z orthecreedence: that var might be expecting a path only though. best option is to email tamas https://github.com/kovisoft?tab=activity 2014-06-26T22:41:49Z quasus: thanks for the tip 2014-06-26T22:41:52Z orthecreedence: he's been super responsive before when i have questions or problems 2014-06-26T22:42:13Z quasus: i think i'll plunge a bit into the code first 2014-06-26T22:42:29Z orthecreedence: good idea! hope you figure it out 2014-06-26T22:42:40Z orthecreedence: it might even be a standard option and i just don't know about it 2014-06-26T22:43:16Z quasus: yeah, i've been using it for a year or so, but still i don't know most of the options either 2014-06-26T22:44:40Z klltkr joined #lisp 2014-06-26T22:46:45Z francogrex joined #lisp 2014-06-26T22:47:43Z quasus: orthecreedence: setting g:slimv_lisp works like charm! many thanks! 2014-06-26T22:47:55Z orthecreedence: oh good! glad to help =] 2014-06-26T22:53:44Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T22:55:08Z DataLinkDroid joined #lisp 2014-06-26T22:57:23Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-26T23:00:24Z Vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-26T23:05:21Z francogrex quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-26T23:09:14Z fortitud1 quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-26T23:09:22Z JuanitoJons quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-26T23:11:34Z matija quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T23:12:04Z htmzr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T23:12:34Z WeirdEnthusiast quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-26T23:13:24Z matija joined #lisp 2014-06-26T23:17:14Z WeirdEnthusiast joined #lisp 2014-06-26T23:18:39Z lduros quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-26T23:19:26Z DataLinkDroid quit (Ping timeout: 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How is the hash retrieved from the test function? 2014-06-27T05:04:30Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-06-27T05:04:39Z Zhivago: The thing to understand is that not all hash-tables are hash tables. 2014-06-27T05:05:03Z Luminously: ah okay 2014-06-27T05:05:08Z pjb: Luminously: that's the point of the limited set of valid values for :test : make-hash-table can determine which hash function to use in function of the test function given. 2014-06-27T05:05:37Z Luminously: I see, that makes more sense 2014-06-27T05:05:47Z Luminously: Thanks for the explanations 2014-06-27T05:05:58Z Bike: yeah, you couldn't really derive a very good hash function just from the test. 2014-06-27T05:06:15Z pjb: Luminously: you may also want to read: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html and CDR#12 IIRC, about equals. 2014-06-27T05:06:49Z pjb: cdr#8 actually: http://cdr.eurolisp.org/document/8/index.html 2014-06-27T05:07:40Z pjb: a=b => hash(a)=hash(b) but not <= 2014-06-27T05:08:39Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2014-06-27T05:10:49Z pjb: Well, if you know the implementation of the test function, then you can deduce a valid hash function. 2014-06-27T05:13:04Z Luminously: Yea, I was under the impression that it did some magic with the test function 2014-06-27T05:14:02Z pjb: No, it's just hard coded for the 4 possible tests. 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timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-27T12:06:36Z forgottenone joined #lisp 2014-06-27T12:10:30Z xyh joined #lisp 2014-06-27T12:11:15Z matko quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-27T12:11:33Z matko joined #lisp 2014-06-27T12:14:13Z vidyuth: hi 2014-06-27T12:14:17Z kcj quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-27T12:14:39Z DrCode quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-27T12:14:41Z vidyuth: I get the following problem when trying to run sbcl with slime 2014-06-27T12:14:43Z vidyuth: ASDF could not load sb-bsd-sockets because 2014-06-27T12:14:43Z vidyuth: Error while trying to load definition for system sb-bsd-sockets from pathname 2014-06-27T12:14:43Z vidyuth: /usr/local/Cellar/sbcl/1.1.13/lib/sbcl/contrib/sb-bsd-sockets.asd: 2014-06-27T12:14:55Z vidyuth: this is on my mac 2014-06-27T12:15:51Z zwer_z quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-27T12:15:52Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-27T12:16:03Z _death: maybe you should try a more recent sbcl version first 2014-06-27T12:16:45Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-27T12:18:27Z DrCode joined #lisp 2014-06-27T12:18:56Z xristos quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-27T12:19:38Z vidyuth: i'm using SBCL 1.1.6.0-3c5581a 2014-06-27T12:20:03Z vidyuth: isn't that near the latest, i downloading it a few days back. 2014-06-27T12:20:28Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-27T12:21:28Z matko: does the word 'hook' generally refer to the datastructure holding functions to run when a certain event happens, or to these functions themselves? 2014-06-27T12:21:29Z _death: (i) that's a version from 2013-03 (ii) look at the pathname you pasted, it says 1.1.13 2014-06-27T12:22:18Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-27T12:22:49Z Xach: vidyuth: i recommend getting sbcl from sbcl.org rather than some package system. 2014-06-27T12:23:10Z _death: matko: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Hooks.html 2014-06-27T12:23:27Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-27T12:23:28Z matko: I see, so the hook is the data structure 2014-06-27T12:23:47Z matko: and it contains 'hook functions' 2014-06-27T12:23:58Z matko: that works for me. I'll follow those definitions 2014-06-27T12:24:16Z vidyuth: also it says: 2014-06-27T12:24:17Z ggole: "A place to hang things" is my mental picture 2014-06-27T12:24:35Z vidyuth: i seem to have two versions on my systems... 2014-06-27T12:24:46Z Xach: get rid of 'em all and fetch one from sbcl.org 2014-06-27T12:25:09Z vidyuth: not sure why... I must have installed sbcl at 1.1.13 time 2014-06-27T12:25:51Z matko: a clothes hanger has a hook you use to hang your clothes on something else. but a meat hook is a hook you use to hang meat on. so 'hook' is used both ways in common language 2014-06-27T12:26:18Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-06-27T12:26:37Z Guest351O2 joined #lisp 2014-06-27T12:26:37Z therik joined #lisp 2014-06-27T12:26:43Z Guest351O2 is now known as Guest43193 2014-06-27T12:28:52Z matko: 'hook function' is an annoying term.. does anyone have suggestions for something shorter? 2014-06-27T12:29:53Z ggole: "function" 2014-06-27T12:30:09Z ggole: There's nothing about a function that changes when it's placed in a hook, really 2014-06-27T12:31:35Z shridhar joined #lisp 2014-06-27T12:32:12Z Sir_herrbatka joined #lisp 2014-06-27T12:33:13Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-06-27T12:33:25Z ggole: And if context allows, "entry" would be reasonable 2014-06-27T12:33:53Z matko: hmm I'll just describe what I'm doing here. I'm building something similar to hooks, however they do not contain functions but objects for which 3 generic functions are defined. rather than the hook being processed by just calling all functions sequentially, it calls these 3 methods on various hook entries in an order that's too involved to explain now.. 2014-06-27T12:33:55Z matko: entry will have to do 2014-06-27T12:34:31Z vidyuth: Xach: all worked very well. I have been chasing this problem down for ages. so thanks for that. 2014-06-27T12:36:11Z ggole: matko: do the objects refer to each other in a way that affects invocation order, by any chance? 2014-06-27T12:37:10Z matko: ggole: no, but they may inhibit other entries from running 2014-06-27T12:37:11Z xyh: matko: hook is just a list of functions, in lisp list can contains any kind of data, and function is one kind of data. 2014-06-27T12:37:11Z xyh: 2014-06-27T12:37:20Z matko: I'm aware xyh 2014-06-27T12:37:29Z xyh: a programmer can provide ``hook'' to let you extend the his app, for example, you can just change the source code of a emacs mode or use a hook 2014-06-27T12:37:40Z xyh: matko: http://www.colorforth.com/POL.htm 2014-06-27T12:37:56Z ggole: matko: right... it doesn't really sound like "hook" is the right term 2014-06-27T12:38:28Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-06-27T12:38:32Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-27T12:38:44Z matko: xyh: what's this? 2014-06-27T12:39:01Z ggole: The connotation of "hook" is an extension point, rather than a necessary part of your software. 2014-06-27T12:39:09Z xyh: matko: read the ``1.1 The Basic Principle'' of POL, see what Chuck Moore say about hook. 2014-06-27T12:39:14Z matko: I'd be happy to move away from 'hook' as a word, heh. it seems to give me more problems in my function naming than anything 2014-06-27T12:39:29Z matko: but this does serve as an extension point though 2014-06-27T12:39:55Z matko: that is, it is to fulfil a similar role to hooks in emacs, it just happens to be somewhat more involved in this application 2014-06-27T12:41:06Z ggole: Hmm 2014-06-27T12:41:18Z pranavrc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-27T12:41:20Z ggole: Guess you're in a bit of a halfway house there 2014-06-27T12:41:34Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-06-27T12:42:20Z matko: basically what I want to happen is this: an event happens - all 'check' functions for a 'hook' are run to determine what needs to happen, which 'hook entries' might wish to participate in further handling of the event, whether we might want to inhibit the underlying action that triggered the event.. then there's a 'before' phase which runs in the state before the event takes place, and an 'after' plhase afterwards 2014-06-27T12:43:22Z matko: I roughly know what I want to built, I have it largely built already in fact. I'm just troubled about my function naming :-P 2014-06-27T12:43:25Z ggole: One approach is to have two variables 2014-06-27T12:43:38Z ggole: event-pre-hook and event-post-hook 2014-06-27T12:43:49Z ggole: Right 2014-06-27T12:43:57Z ggole: Naming is an awful business. 2014-06-27T12:44:02Z YDJX joined #lisp 2014-06-27T12:45:08Z matko: so I was hoping for some established practice 2014-06-27T12:45:12Z matko: but alas :( 2014-06-27T12:47:13Z xyh: matko: 'check' functions ? your hooks to them just as global variables ?? 2014-06-27T12:47:34Z matko: xyh: I'm actually very certain that I need hooklike behavior ;). I'm embedding common lisp in an existing game which already has an event system, which I wish to improve 2014-06-27T12:48:00Z xyh: matko: cool 2014-06-27T12:49:29Z forgottenone quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-27T12:49:50Z matko: xyh: check is a generic function on a 'hook entry', it looks at the event that just happens and decides if it is something this 'hook entry' wishes to handle, or maybe even stop from happening. it is not a global variable. The hooks themselves are global. I'm not sure if that is what you meant 2014-06-27T12:51:03Z matko: ah. I'll call them 'responses'. that seems fitting 2014-06-27T12:52:39Z Sgeo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-27T12:53:49Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-27T12:55:10Z pranavrc quit 2014-06-27T12:56:49Z xyh: matko: so, events are global in your game, and there are lots of functions check them all the time, and different functions act differently on one event, you can call these functions ``responsers'' :) 2014-06-27T12:56:50Z _death: if your event is represented as a generic function you may find it appropriate to use before/after/around methods 2014-06-27T12:57:24Z matko: no my event isn't 2014-06-27T12:57:36Z matko: the response is 2014-06-27T12:58:00Z matko: but I need to run the 'check' phase of all possible responses before running its 'before' phase so :before and :after do not work for me there 2014-06-27T12:58:07Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-27T12:58:21Z matko: now I could make (fire-event) generic and use :before and :after that way, but it seems like hammering something into the generic function abstraction which doesn't properly belong there 2014-06-27T12:58:42Z matko: though come to think of it, actually I can't cause things need to run inbetween my before and after phase 2014-06-27T12:59:13Z _death: sounds like you need more generic functions :) 2014-06-27T12:59:29Z matko: I actually really like generic functions 2014-06-27T12:59:34Z matko: but I went through a phase where I applied them everywhere 2014-06-27T12:59:42Z matko: and it got real messy real fast. it's very easy to use abstractions for things they're really no good for 2014-06-27T13:00:59Z matko: similarly I was using the condition system up to recently in a way that was just a really roundabout method of creating a hook 2014-06-27T13:03:25Z matko: :before, :around and :after really only make sense in the context of a type hierarchy where you need something to run for the lower type out of order 2014-06-27T13:04:16Z ndrei quit 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Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org) 2014-06-27T14:34:01Z xificurC_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-27T14:34:19Z xificurC joined #lisp 2014-06-27T14:36:21Z xificurC quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-27T14:36:41Z amaron quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-27T14:36:56Z bhyde surprised there doesn't appear even an attempt to bridge slime to elisp. I yearn for that tasty slime experience when developing elisp packages. 2014-06-27T14:37:24Z Xach: bhyde: really? luke has said slime was his attempt to bring cl up to par with the elisp equivalents. 2014-06-27T14:37:25Z Bike: er, because you already have emacs right there? 2014-06-27T14:37:39Z Xach: i think he mentioned edebug and ielm 2014-06-27T14:37:48Z Xach has not used edebug, has used ielm only a little 2014-06-27T14:38:37Z amaron joined #lisp 2014-06-27T14:40:10Z Malice joined #lisp 2014-06-27T14:40:30Z bhyde: my desire dejour is the inspector and macroexpand ... well and the same damn keystrokes. 2014-06-27T14:41:31Z bhyde: i've been reduced to copy/past to use ielm to macro expand :) 2014-06-27T14:42:44Z huza quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-27T14:42:47Z Xach: ah 2014-06-27T14:44:36Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: experience disconnected because something exploded) 2014-06-27T14:46:15Z xificurC joined #lisp 2014-06-27T14:46:31Z Shinmera: Hooray for b-splines. http://shinmera.tymoon.eu/public/screenshot-2014.06.27-16:46:09.png 2014-06-27T14:46:38Z xificurC quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-27T14:46:57Z beach joined #lisp 2014-06-27T14:46:59Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-27T14:47:13Z beach: Good afternoon everyone! 2014-06-27T14:47:47Z Shinmera: Mediocre afternoon for me, but I agree with beach's sentiment for everyone else. 2014-06-27T14:47:48Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-27T14:47:52Z bhyde: "slime was his attempt to bring cl up to par with the elisp equivalents" ... i've always thought it was an attempt to raise it to the bar set by the lisp machine and other dev. environments :) 2014-06-27T14:48:01Z bubo joined #lisp 2014-06-27T14:48:20Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-27T14:48:25Z bubo is now known as Guest67582 2014-06-27T14:48:31Z Guest67582 quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-27T14:48:57Z dkcl: Does anyone here use something like hemlock/climacs? 2014-06-27T14:49:55Z Xach: bhyde: i don't think luke ever used those 2014-06-27T14:50:03Z bubo_ joined #lisp 2014-06-27T14:50:06Z bubo_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-27T14:50:16Z beach: dkcl: Not me, but I am developing Second Climacs and hoping to use it some day. 2014-06-27T14:50:18Z Xach: Shinmera: cool picture 2014-06-27T14:50:44Z Shinmera: Xach: you can choose from different curve interpolations and I finally got around to adding b-spline 2014-06-27T14:51:33Z quasus: beach: perhaps cl-vim? we have one emacs already ::) 2014-06-27T14:51:41Z Xach: Shinmera: a friend of mine wrote a "paint" program that worked entirely with cornu spirals instead of splines and he felt there was a lot of untapped potential there 2014-06-27T14:51:48Z Xach: Shinmera: he designed a font with it, iirc 2014-06-27T14:52:17Z beach: quasus: Sure. But I am not going to develop it. 2014-06-27T14:52:28Z Shinmera: Xach: Another topic I've never heard of! This project is proving to be much more educational than I thought 2014-06-27T14:52:55Z quasus: beach: pity :( 2014-06-27T14:53:07Z Shinmera: Xach: Parasol is set up to allow an arbitrary "curve" as long as it accepts a function to add new knots and one to map over the "interpolated" points. 2014-06-27T14:53:10Z matko joined #lisp 2014-06-27T14:53:30Z Xach: http://www.levien.com/spiro/ has some of his work 2014-06-27T14:53:31Z dlowe: I feel that there should be some way to get the composability of vim with the flexibility of emacs 2014-06-27T14:53:44Z bubo_ joined #lisp 2014-06-27T14:53:53Z Xach: http://www.levien.com/phd/phd.html too 2014-06-27T14:54:00Z dlowe: with better window/buffer handling than either :p 2014-06-27T14:54:01Z bubo_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-27T14:54:17Z dkcl: beach: Haha, nice 2014-06-27T14:54:19Z xificurC joined #lisp 2014-06-27T14:54:53Z bhyde: Openmcl's MacOSX GUI variant uses hemlock, right? 2014-06-27T14:54:54Z beach: dkcl: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Second-Climacs 2014-06-27T14:55:35Z Xach: bhyde: a descendant 2014-06-27T14:55:54Z Xach: lightly modified 2014-06-27T14:55:58Z quasus: (no holywar intended, just ignorance of emacs) and in which ways emacs is more flexible as a text editor? it seems to me you can do anything in vim including keymaps, remappings and whatever 2014-06-27T14:56:06Z Shinmera: Xach: these results do indeed look really nice 2014-06-27T14:58:12Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2014-06-27T14:59:18Z saikrishna quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-27T15:00:38Z beach registers for ILC. 2014-06-27T15:00:45Z Ralt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-27T15:01:23Z beach: quasus: I know nothing about vim. Is it written in a dynamic programming language? 2014-06-27T15:01:51Z quasus: no, it's written in c 2014-06-27T15:01:55Z quasus: c++ 2014-06-27T15:02:05Z dkcl: quasus: Use viper/evil-mode 2014-06-27T15:02:16Z quasus: it has "vimlang" embedded 2014-06-27T15:02:20Z sirdancealot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-27T15:02:25Z quasus: i guess it's quite dynamic 2014-06-27T15:02:38Z oGMo: off topic :P 2014-06-27T15:02:47Z beach: quasus: This is #lisp, so we argue that having the same language used for implementing the software and configuring it has great advantages because you can then modify the software in arbitrary ways just though the startup file. 2014-06-27T15:02:49Z quasus: sorry :( 2014-06-27T15:03:18Z matko quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-27T15:05:02Z quasus: the point is that it's difficult to find a person who would be equally proficient in vim and in emacs and unbiased :( 2014-06-27T15:05:34Z dkcl: quasus: I am. I use viper-mode 2014-06-27T15:05:43Z dkcl: quasus: I started with Emacs, too 2014-06-27T15:06:00Z oGMo: no one is unbiased 2014-06-27T15:06:11Z dkcl: I have no love towards emacs or vim 2014-06-27T15:06:13Z xyjprc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-27T15:06:20Z oGMo: but it's irrelevant; which tool makes it easiest for you to write CL? use that 2014-06-27T15:06:30Z oGMo: they're both free, try them both yourself and see 2014-06-27T15:06:31Z H4ns: quasus: you're posing the question in a wrong way, really. for emacs, there is slime and it is a great too for common lisp development. something equivalent could be written for vim, but as they say "unwritten code has no bugs and executes at the speed of mouth" 2014-06-27T15:06:40Z dkcl: nvi is really nice, though. Perhaps I should write cl-nvi 2014-06-27T15:06:44Z H4ns: s/too/tool/ 2014-06-27T15:06:48Z Mon_Ouie quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-27T15:06:52Z quasus: viper-mode then, i should try it 2014-06-27T15:07:02Z quasus: for vim there is slimv 2014-06-27T15:07:02Z dkcl: But that's only a text editor, not a massive development environment that is perfectly suited to the language you're interested in 2014-06-27T15:07:26Z H4ns: quasus: yeah. it exists, but slime is by far more developed and maintained. 2014-06-27T15:07:42Z beach: quasus: Do you understand the argument about using the same language for implementation and configuration? 2014-06-27T15:08:05Z dkcl: quasus: I once decided to switch to XEmacs for obscure reasons, but SLIME is just too good, and they don't support XEmacs anymore 2014-06-27T15:08:07Z quasus: at least slimv satisfies the requirements listed in that Tutorial on Good Lisp Programming Style 2014-06-27T15:08:10Z xificurC quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-27T15:08:20Z quasus: beach: no 2014-06-27T15:08:26Z beach: :( 2014-06-27T15:08:35Z quasus: why does it matter? 2014-06-27T15:08:59Z H4ns: quasus: if you think that slimv is good enough for your purposes, by all means use it. 2014-06-27T15:09:00Z quasus: yes, i can't remap c-m in vim because it's hardcoded 2014-06-27T15:09:13Z quasus: but i can live with that 2014-06-27T15:09:29Z dkcl: Well, elisp isn't what anyone would call "pretty", but it's amazing when compared to vimscript the way Common Lisp is amazing when compared to other languages 2014-06-27T15:09:41Z beach: quasus: Never mind. 2014-06-27T15:09:54Z jusss quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-06-27T15:10:05Z quasus: yeah, vimscript is ... kinda ... well, not even python :) 2014-06-27T15:10:07Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-27T15:10:34Z quasus: i can't remap c-m in vim, but i can remap anything else 2014-06-27T15:10:41Z bhyde: a decade later i still emit XEmacs commands followed by a curse 2014-06-27T15:10:46Z quasus: well, sorry for the offtopic 2014-06-27T15:10:56Z quasus: i'll try viper-mode 2014-06-27T15:11:11Z quasus: and who knows :) 2014-06-27T15:12:25Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-27T15:12:26Z dkcl: quasus: http://paste.lisp.org/+32CU 2014-06-27T15:12:55Z quasus: thanks! 2014-06-27T15:13:35Z dkcl: Hopefully that will resolve the uncertainty to some extent :P 2014-06-27T15:14:56Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-27T15:15:23Z fortitude: beach: beach: in Show/Fundamental/fundamental.lisp, you use a function clim3:offset (line 54), which seems to not be present in your climatis repo 2014-06-27T15:15:36Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-27T15:15:37Z fortitude: is the repo not up to date, or am I missing something? 2014-06-27T15:18:08Z yrk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-27T15:19:20Z beach: fortitude: Hold on, I am in the middle of registration for ILC. I *hate* websites like this one. They are always doing things wrong one way or the other. 2014-06-27T15:19:49Z forgottenone joined #lisp 2014-06-27T15:20:24Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-06-27T15:20:34Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-27T15:20:50Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2014-06-27T15:20:50Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-06-27T15:21:28Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2014-06-27T15:21:48Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-27T15:23:21Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-27T15:24:46Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-27T15:26:28Z xificurC joined #lisp 2014-06-27T15:26:37Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-27T15:27:06Z otwieracz: Hi. 2014-06-27T15:27:17Z otwieracz: You have any ideas how to write binary data to serial port using SBCL on Linux? 2014-06-27T15:27:19Z beach: Hello otwieracz 2014-06-27T15:27:43Z beach: fortitude: OK, I am listening. 2014-06-27T15:28:03Z beach: Hold on, let me check. 2014-06-27T15:29:00Z Xach is registered for ilc also 2014-06-27T15:29:40Z DrCode quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-27T15:30:17Z DrCode joined #lisp 2014-06-27T15:30:47Z beach: fortitude: It is defined in CLIM3/CLIMatis. 2014-06-27T15:31:19Z beach: fortitude: In Layout/trees.lisp 2014-06-27T15:32:07Z fortitude: beach: looks like the code I've got is somehow out of date 2014-06-27T15:32:20Z beach: Oh, wait. 2014-06-27T15:32:52Z beach: fortitude: You are right. Hold on. 2014-06-27T15:34:08Z beach: fortitude: It appears that stuff was never committed/pushed. Done now. *blush* 2014-06-27T15:34:15Z xificurC quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-27T15:34:38Z fortitude: that would certainly do it 2014-06-27T15:35:07Z Sir_herrbatka joined #lisp 2014-06-27T15:35:15Z fortitude: beach: I also meant to mention that xach's got a nifty trick involving *load-truename* that might make your adjustments to asdf:*central-registry* a bit more portable 2014-06-27T15:36:24Z beach: fortitude: That would be great! 2014-06-27T15:36:34Z fortitude: this thing: http://xach.livejournal.com/294639.html?thread=776943 2014-06-27T15:37:25Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2014-06-27T15:38:48Z beach: fortitude: I need to read that some other time. Too late in the afternoon for my brain. 2014-06-27T15:39:43Z xificurC joined #lisp 2014-06-27T15:40:58Z fortitude: beach: I'll see if I can get you a patch over the weekend 2014-06-27T15:41:05Z fortitude: shouldn't be very complicated 2014-06-27T15:42:00Z beach: fortitude: Great! Thanks! 2014-06-27T15:42:01Z xificurC quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-27T15:42:39Z xificurC joined #lisp 2014-06-27T15:44:32Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-06-27T15:46:42Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-06-27T15:46:47Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-27T15:47:41Z xificurC quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-27T15:47:55Z Longlius quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-27T15:48:07Z xificurC joined #lisp 2014-06-27T15:48:31Z Longlius joined #lisp 2014-06-27T15:51:59Z jamesf joined #lisp 2014-06-27T15:55:00Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-27T15:55:47Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-06-27T15:57:42Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-27T15:58:07Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-27T15:59:14Z YDJX quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-27T16:02:16Z millibits_in quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-27T16:05:04Z gingerale joined #lisp 2014-06-27T16:06:49Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-27T16:07:17Z chameco quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-27T16:07:21Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-27T16:09:13Z killmaster joined #lisp 2014-06-27T16:09:20Z Sir_herrbatka: hi 2014-06-27T16:09:24Z test1600 joined #lisp 2014-06-27T16:09:30Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-27T16:09:30Z jeremyheiler joined #lisp 2014-06-27T16:09:33Z Sir_herrbatka: i'm trying to understand a macro written in the LOL 2014-06-27T16:09:38Z xificurC quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-27T16:09:43Z Sir_herrbatka: http://letoverlambda.com/index.cl/guest/chap3.html#sec_2 2014-06-27T16:09:45Z Sir_herrbatka: it is 2014-06-27T16:09:53Z Sir_herrbatka: DEFMACRO-WITH-G-BANG 2014-06-27T16:10:06Z Sir_herrbatka: what is the purpose of the subseq? 2014-06-27T16:11:05Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-27T16:11:18Z xificurC joined #lisp 2014-06-27T16:11:37Z Sir_herrbatka: it looks like the prefix for the new symbol name 2014-06-27T16:13:09Z fortitude: Sir_herrbatka: looks like it's getting the symbol name without the initial "g!" characters 2014-06-27T16:13:34Z fortitude: the argument to subseq is a start position, not a length 2014-06-27T16:16:52Z _schulte_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-27T16:17:18Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-27T16:18:25Z matko joined #lisp 2014-06-27T16:18:48Z xificurC quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-27T16:21:39Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-06-27T16:21:51Z killmaster quit (Changing host) 2014-06-27T16:21:51Z killmaster joined #lisp 2014-06-27T16:22:54Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2014-06-27T16:22:59Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-27T16:24:28Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-27T16:26:20Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-27T16:30:37Z boogie joined #lisp 2014-06-27T16:30:55Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-06-27T16:32:27Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-06-27T16:32:30Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-27T16:33:38Z z0d quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-27T16:34:10Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-06-27T16:38:54Z jusss quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-27T16:40:57Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-27T16:41:51Z Guest30035 joined #lisp 2014-06-27T16:45:57Z chameco joined #lisp 2014-06-27T16:47:57Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-27T16:48:10Z malbertife joined #lisp 2014-06-27T16:48:22Z z0d joined #lisp 2014-06-27T16:49:29Z Ragnaroek quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-27T16:53:45Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-27T16:54:19Z nand1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-27T16:55:34Z klltkr joined #lisp 2014-06-27T16:56:53Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-27T16:57:43Z AdmiralBumbleBee joined #lisp 2014-06-27T16:59:53Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-27T17:02:12Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-27T17:04:43Z ivan4th joined #lisp 2014-06-27T17:04:48Z aeth joined #lisp 2014-06-27T17:11:45Z chameco quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-27T17:12:53Z shridhar quit (Quit: shridhar) 2014-06-27T17:17:58Z blakbunnie27 quit (Quit: EliteBNC free bnc service - http://elitebnc.org - be a part of the Elite!) 2014-06-27T17:18:17Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-27T17:19:28Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-27T17:19:30Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-06-27T17:19:57Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-27T17:21:16Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2014-06-27T17:21:17Z attila_lendvai quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-27T17:21:17Z attila_lendvai1 quit (Changing host) 2014-06-27T17:21:17Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2014-06-27T17:22:06Z Sir_herrbatka: fortitude: right 2014-06-27T17:22:13Z jiteboxr joined #lisp 2014-06-27T17:22:19Z Sir_herrbatka: actually i was somehow thinking that it is length 2014-06-27T17:22:24Z Sir_herrbatka: which is stupid 2014-06-27T17:22:42Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2014-06-27T17:22:55Z jeremyheiler quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-27T17:25:40Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-27T17:25:45Z attila_lendvai1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-27T17:26:04Z jeremyheiler joined #lisp 2014-06-27T17:27:39Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-06-27T17:31:11Z francogrex joined #lisp 2014-06-27T17:32:05Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-27T17:32:10Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-06-27T17:32:10Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-27T17:32:29Z Malice quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-27T17:32:59Z chameco joined #lisp 2014-06-27T17:34:19Z loke_ joined #lisp 2014-06-27T17:34:51Z foreignFunction joined #lisp 2014-06-27T17:35:08Z Guest30035 quit (Quit: Changing server) 2014-06-27T17:35:31Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-27T17:35:51Z Guest30035 joined #lisp 2014-06-27T17:38:33Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-27T17:38:56Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-27T17:44:18Z beach left #lisp 2014-06-27T17:44:44Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-27T17:44:50Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-27T17:46:48Z momo-reina joined #lisp 2014-06-27T17:48:38Z jasom: quasus: use evil-mode if you're coming from vim, not viper-mode; evil is specifically vim emulation, while viper is more like its own version of vi 2014-06-27T17:48:51Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-27T17:53:42Z forgottenone quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-27T17:55:17Z momo-reina quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-27T17:56:51Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-06-27T18:01:18Z francogrex quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-27T18:04:22Z Shinmera: And another parasol milestone reached: It's now possible to draw beards onto existing images. http://shinmera.tymoon.eu/public/screenshot-2014.06.27-20:03:38.png 2014-06-27T18:04:32Z moore33 joined #lisp 2014-06-27T18:05:24Z Joreji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-27T18:06:40Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-27T18:11:37Z Natch joined #lisp 2014-06-27T18:13:17Z Xach: thrilling! 2014-06-27T18:13:47Z eudoxia: i'm mostly glad someone's written a moderately sized CommonQt application 2014-06-27T18:13:56Z gigetoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-27T18:14:13Z eudoxia: it serves as an example, additionally, Parasol screenshots could be showcased in the CommonQt website 2014-06-27T18:14:15Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2014-06-27T18:14:34Z Shinmera: I'm having surprisingly few issues with it. Three alien thumbs up. 2014-06-27T18:15:16Z DrCode quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-27T18:15:17Z sykopomp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-27T18:15:49Z sykopomp joined #lisp 2014-06-27T18:15:56Z Mandus saw the Parasol links and tried to get it running - but can't get even the qt-tutorial-14:main running (on OS-X, Mavericks, with Qt 4.8)... 2014-06-27T18:15:58Z Shinmera: I'm just a bit worried that I'll never reach a release point since more and more "required" features keep popping up that I have to implement 2014-06-27T18:16:57Z DrCode joined #lisp 2014-06-27T18:17:01Z Shinmera: at least I'm able to have fun with it every now and again http://shinmera.tymoon.eu/public/screenshot-2014.06.27-20:09:59.png 2014-06-27T18:17:31Z Xach snorts 2014-06-27T18:18:17Z Mandus: Does this look familiar to someone: http://pastebin.com/Ku4bHszJ (CommonQT give Memory fault) 2014-06-27T18:18:52Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-06-27T18:19:14Z eudoxia: it's been a while since i used it, but it doesn't seem familiar 2014-06-27T18:19:39Z Shinmera: Mandus: can't say, sorry. Never looked at the tutorials. 2014-06-27T18:20:05Z Mandus: Parasol gives same error, that's why I tried something simpler... 2014-06-27T18:20:14Z Mandus: Which version of Qt are you using? 2014-06-27T18:20:15Z moore33 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-27T18:20:19Z Shinmera: 4.8 2014-06-27T18:20:30Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2014-06-27T18:20:33Z Mandus: on linux then, I guess? 2014-06-27T18:20:34Z Shinmera: CommonQt shouldn't compile with 5 last time I checked anyway. 2014-06-27T18:20:36Z Shinmera: yes 2014-06-27T18:21:22Z Shinmera: If you're on windows you're on your own I'm afraid. I never got anything to run on there and last time I tried was half a year ago. 2014-06-27T18:21:35Z Mandus: right - I suspect it's something in the smokeqt-stuff. 2014-06-27T18:21:41Z Mandus: (I'm on OS X_ 2014-06-27T18:21:53Z Mandus: s/_/)/ 2014-06-27T18:21:55Z Shinmera: I would test on Os X if I had a machine 2014-06-27T18:22:03Z Shinmera: but unfortunately I do not 2014-06-27T18:22:12Z d4gg4d___ is now known as d4gg4d 2014-06-27T18:22:17Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-27T18:22:30Z Shinmera: and thanks to Apple making virtualization near impossible I can't get around that either. 2014-06-27T18:23:05Z Mandus: true. 2014-06-27T18:23:25Z Mandus: Shinmera: I have a linux computer, so I'll try it on that one later 2014-06-27T18:23:35Z Xach: I have OS X but no time! But I may try to make time. 2014-06-27T18:24:45Z Shinmera: Mandus: can you try ql-ing commonqt and running this: http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view?id=54# 2014-06-27T18:25:26Z Shinmera: If even that doesn't work your libraries are broken somehow 2014-06-27T18:26:07Z Mandus: Shinmera: gives exactly the same error :( 2014-06-27T18:27:00Z Mandus: I dig around to make sure I don't have multiple and incompatible versions of some libs - that happen from time to time when doing manual installs... 2014-06-27T18:27:03Z Mandus: thanks anyway! 2014-06-27T18:27:53Z Shinmera: Mandus: Can you cd to the commonqt dir (something like quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/commonqt-20140616-git/ ) and running: qmake-qt4 && make 2014-06-27T18:27:55Z bocaneri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-27T18:28:24Z Shinmera: I'm not sure if Os X requires special compilation procedures, but at least under linux that should compile the libs 2014-06-27T18:28:29Z Shinmera: you might get some hints out of that 2014-06-27T18:28:30Z Mandus: hmm, I have 20140525 2014-06-27T18:28:36Z Shinmera: shouldn't matter 2014-06-27T18:28:42Z Mandus: maybe I should do ql:update? 2014-06-27T18:28:58Z Shinmera: give it a shot 2014-06-27T18:29:05Z ivan4th quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-27T18:29:13Z Shinmera: iirc commonqt should try to compile the libs automatically upon ql-ing if they don't exist yet 2014-06-27T18:29:34Z xristos joined #lisp 2014-06-27T18:29:35Z Shinmera: (this breaks on my system since I have multiple qmake-s for the multiple versions of qt) 2014-06-27T18:30:17Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-27T18:31:10Z vlnx_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-27T18:31:32Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-27T18:32:48Z Mandus: nope, after (ql:update-all-dists) and manual compile in (now) commonqt-20140616-git I still get same error 2014-06-27T18:33:14Z vlnx joined #lisp 2014-06-27T18:33:24Z Shinmera: Did you get any interesting compile warnings or anything? 2014-06-27T18:33:44Z Mandus: nope, but I'm looking at backtrace in sbcl now 2014-06-27T18:34:17Z fortitude: just for the record, I've made little toy programs with commonqt on windows 2014-06-27T18:34:39Z fortitude: didn't seem to require anything more than dumping the dlls from the commonqt site in a directory on PATH and quickloading commonqt 2014-06-27T18:34:47Z Mandus: Shinmera: http://pastebin.com/YesKTa6J 2014-06-27T18:35:37Z JuanitoJons joined #lisp 2014-06-27T18:35:44Z Shinmera: Mandus: can't do anything with that, sorry 2014-06-27T18:36:01Z Shinmera: Mandus: stassats might be able to help you debug the issue, but he isn't around right now 2014-06-27T18:36:04Z Mandus: ok, np 2014-06-27T18:36:42Z Shinmera: fortitude: Ah, I'm glad to hear that then. Last I tried there weren't any precompiled dlls available. 2014-06-27T18:37:00Z Mandus: I keep digging, maybe I hit something 2014-06-27T18:37:08Z eudoxia: there are dlls now, before you could only find them from a reaaallly deep folder in a japanese university's ftp 2014-06-27T18:37:29Z eudoxia: it was so obscure it was on the second page of google results 2014-06-27T18:37:33Z Shinmera: heh 2014-06-27T18:37:56Z xyjprc joined #lisp 2014-06-27T18:37:57Z Shinmera: I tried building them myself, but only ended up wasting a day and a lot of energy. 2014-06-27T18:38:12Z eudoxia: windows is such a terrible platform ugh 2014-06-27T18:38:29Z eudoxia: how much would it cost them to bundle clang and make 2014-06-27T18:39:02Z fortitude: eudoxia: without some reasonably standard thing like /usr/include or /lib, it probably wouldn't help much 2014-06-27T18:40:36Z nydel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-27T18:40:41Z eudoxia: hey i got parasol working here http://i.imgur.com/DUNWBP6.png 2014-06-27T18:40:52Z nydel joined #lisp 2014-06-27T18:41:05Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-27T18:41:06Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2014-06-27T18:41:12Z wheelsucker quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-27T18:41:27Z max` joined #lisp 2014-06-27T18:41:28Z max`: Hi 2014-06-27T18:41:31Z max`: I get The value NIL is not of the expected type (OR SWANK::MULTITHREADED-CONNECTION SWANK::SINGLETHREADED-CONNECTION). 2014-06-27T18:41:57Z Shinmera: eudoxia: nice! 2014-06-27T18:42:16Z Shinmera: eudoxia: and it doesn't even look completely terrible theme wise. 2014-06-27T18:42:21Z Shinmera: This makes me quite happy 2014-06-27T18:42:30Z max`: I assume this is because I call swank:eval-in-emacs in a thread where the swank connection variable is not bound 2014-06-27T18:42:32Z didi: Shinmera: Nice work. :^) 2014-06-27T18:42:43Z Shinmera: didi: Thanks, but there's a lot left to be done! 2014-06-27T18:42:53Z didi: Shinmera: Isn't there always? ;^) 2014-06-27T18:43:06Z Shinmera: didi: Sometimes I like to believe that something is finished 2014-06-27T18:43:19Z max`: Shinmera: sounds like a new lisp website? 2014-06-27T18:43:32Z Shinmera: max`: What does? 2014-06-27T18:43:48Z max`: anyways my question: What is that supposed variable called? 2014-06-27T18:44:10Z max`: Shinmera: "theme wise" 2014-06-27T18:44:24Z Guest30035 quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-27T18:44:35Z Shinmera: max`: Ah, no, eudoxia just successfully ran my CommonQt application on his system, which has a different UI theme 2014-06-27T18:44:40Z Guest30035 joined #lisp 2014-06-27T18:44:44Z eudoxia: Shinmera: how does the curve editor work? I'm trying to click and drag on the little red things but that does nothing 2014-06-27T18:44:57Z Shinmera: eudoxia: It's only there to show the different curve types 2014-06-27T18:45:09Z Shinmera: eudoxia: you can't edit the canvas (atm and makint it possible is a very low priority thing) 2014-06-27T18:45:09Z eudoxia: oh hm 2014-06-27T18:45:43Z max`: oh cool, so thats proof tht there is a working CL gui library 2014-06-27T18:46:03Z max`: I tried like 4 different ones and couldn't get any to work 2014-06-27T18:46:14Z max`: could be me though 2014-06-27T18:46:37Z Shinmera: eudoxia: also, saving is currently broken as the determination of the layer size doesn't determine correctly. I'm working on fixing that right now. 2014-06-27T18:52:36Z eudoxia: Shinmera: one little thing. the HSV color picker has a ~1s delay when i click on it. i'm not sure which language is to blame. 2014-06-27T18:53:55Z Shinmera: eudoxia: the implementation, as it's doing a whooole load of stuff 2014-06-27T18:54:24Z Shinmera: eudoxia: It's a beast and I don't really want to figure out how to make it not suck right now 2014-06-27T18:54:50Z eudoxia: ok 2014-06-27T18:56:12Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-27T18:58:43Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-27T18:58:49Z sz0 joined #lisp 2014-06-27T18:59:19Z Joreji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-27T18:59:26Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-27T19:00:53Z fortitude: max`: ltk is actually a pretty good gui lib, as long as you're not trying to do really graphics-intensive stuff 2014-06-27T19:01:32Z nipra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-27T19:02:03Z mxh- joined #lisp 2014-06-27T19:02:35Z kushal quit (Quit: 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2014-06-27T20:03:09Z fortitude: jasom: when I wrote my last little project, I found that if you tried to get tk events to trigger lisp code too much, there were sometimes issues with the way that ltk buffers/flushes events 2014-06-27T20:03:29Z fortitude: the fix was usually to push it into a larger tcl function and send that along 2014-06-27T20:03:37Z jasom: fortitude: 2014-06-27T20:03:37Z Sir_herrbatka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-27T20:04:18Z jasom: fortitude: I made a few fixes to issues like that that I submitted to the mailing list, so maybe that won't be a problem anymore 2014-06-27T20:04:26Z jasom: it's probably still a good idea for performance though. 2014-06-27T20:04:53Z jasom is currently working on a tcl-size function for calculating large number of text-sizes for the common case of dynamically sizing treeviews to fit the data. 2014-06-27T20:05:13Z jasom: if you do a round-trip for each cell, you end up with noticable delays at only a few hundred cells 2014-06-27T20:05:28Z jasom: s/tcl-size/tcl-side 2014-06-27T20:06:08Z fortitude: it's kind of unfortunate that it's so convenient to push stuff into tcl that way 2014-06-27T20:06:24Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-06-27T20:07:06Z fortitude: e.g. in my project I wound up pushing the networking, UI, and a fair chunk of the logic into tcl, and the only thing left to do in lisp was some data munging :/ 2014-06-27T20:07:15Z jasom: fortitude: I don't have a problem with core gui-features like that being in tcl. 2014-06-27T20:07:26Z jasom: I don't want logic or networking in tcl though 2014-06-27T20:07:51Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-27T20:08:57Z fortitude: for larger projects that's probably sensible 2014-06-27T20:09:36Z fortitude: in my case "networking" was really just single-process IPC, and the majority of the logic was UI-related 2014-06-27T20:09:57Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-06-27T20:10:42Z jasom: I had some issues with e.g. spinboxes that I bounded on the lisp side, where if you hammered them hard enough it would cause bizarre events. I fixed all of those though. 2014-06-27T20:11:52Z chameco quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-27T20:13:31Z fortitude: has ltk got bindings for e.g. comboboxes now? 2014-06-27T20:13:38Z fortitude: I remember that and a few other things being missing at the time 2014-06-27T20:15:00Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-27T20:15:20Z jasom: ttk::combobox has been in it for a long long time now 2014-06-27T20:17:12Z fortitude: ah; looks like I was just binding some commands that weren't available 2014-06-27T20:17:22Z fortitude: like 'current' 2014-06-27T20:17:25Z jasom: heh 2014-06-27T20:18:11Z chameco joined #lisp 2014-06-27T20:18:17Z jasom: I slowly started adding anything I want that wasn't available, and submitted patches to the mailing list. I have a fork that I use for my own stuff in lieu of asking people to install patches on top of ltk 2014-06-27T20:18:45Z fortitude: I take it ltk proper isn't being maintained much, then 2014-06-27T20:20:07Z jasom: fortitude: hard to say; the list was broken at one point during the c-l.net upgrade. Later I e-mailed Peter directly and he responded with "send the patches to the list" which I did, but then never got a response. 2014-06-27T20:20:11Z jasom: I should ping again 2014-06-27T20:21:04Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-27T20:21:13Z _tca quit (Changing host) 2014-06-27T20:21:13Z _tca joined #lisp 2014-06-27T20:21:15Z ggherdov quit (Changing host) 2014-06-27T20:21:15Z ggherdov joined #lisp 2014-06-27T20:21:16Z Amaan quit (Changing host) 2014-06-27T20:21:16Z Amaan joined #lisp 2014-06-27T20:21:18Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-27T20:21:31Z fortitude: jasom: it would be nice to get it figured out one way or another 2014-06-27T20:21:39Z jasom: They may have hit a spam filter 2014-06-27T20:21:53Z fortitude: I'd be much more inclined to actually make and submit any stuff I've got if I knew it was actually going somewhere 2014-06-27T20:21:59Z fortitude: *make patches 2014-06-27T20:24:10Z jasom: The worst bug was "make 12 toplevel windows and see everything get screwed up, since the 12th toplevel got named "wm"" 2014-06-27T20:24:29Z dkcl: Hahaha 2014-06-27T20:24:34Z dkcl: LTK 2014-06-27T20:24:58Z dkcl: jasom: I'm glad to hear someone's showing LTK some love 2014-06-27T20:25:06Z dkcl: Well, s/hear/read/ 2014-06-27T20:26:20Z sirdancealot joined #lisp 2014-06-27T20:26:58Z fortitude: jasom: my biggest bugbear was trying to get the toplevel window to restore in the foreground 2014-06-27T20:27:12Z jasom: dkcl: About 5 years ago I tried every gui toolkit I could find on cliki. All but LTK either wouldn't even build or crashed when running a simple demo 2014-06-27T20:27:30Z jasom: fortitude: restore? 2014-06-27T20:27:31Z fortitude: which turned out to require a windows call, but you had to pass it the toplevel window according to windows, not the one or two fake toplevels that tk has 2014-06-27T20:27:46Z fortitude: the window was hidden (minimized to tray, whatever they're calling it these days) 2014-06-27T20:28:01Z fortitude: a remote process had to be able to poke it and pop the window up onscreen 2014-06-27T20:28:09Z jasom: oh 2014-06-27T20:28:21Z aksr quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-27T20:28:22Z jasom: yeah, doing window-management stuff is a PITA in most gui toolkits though 2014-06-27T20:28:58Z fortitude: jasom: I first ran into event issues when I was trying to run some foregrounding code on a window-mapping event or similar 2014-06-27T20:29:09Z p_l: interestingly some scientific software to this day ships with Tk 2014-06-27T20:29:11Z fortitude: the problem wound up being something totally else, though 2014-06-27T20:29:22Z jasom: At least tk doesn't use windows-native modal dialogues. With those you cannot move or resize any of the parent windows (so if, in order to answer it you need a window that is obscured by another you are SOL) 2014-06-27T20:30:05Z foreignFunction quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-27T20:30:06Z jasom: p_l: Tk itself is one of the best cross-platform desktop guis IMO. LTK has some warts but is at least a fairly stable wrapper for it. 2014-06-27T20:30:08Z fortitude: p_l: tcl is really big in the (hardware) testing community, largely for the lisp-like bits it has 2014-06-27T20:30:19Z fortitude: not sure how many of them are using tk along with it 2014-06-27T20:30:49Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-27T20:31:53Z fortitude: jasom: actually, I noticed that if you run an ltk app with tclkit on windows and kill the lisp process, tclkit winds up with a modal dialog box that you can do basically nothing with 2014-06-27T20:32:43Z jaimef quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-27T20:37:32Z jiteboxr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-27T20:38:36Z jaimef joined #lisp 2014-06-27T20:40:25Z samskulls joined #lisp 2014-06-27T20:40:59Z Oddity joined #lisp 2014-06-27T20:42:00Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-27T20:42:10Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-06-27T20:42:10Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-27T20:45:11Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 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nothing I can do) 2014-06-28T04:11:49Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-28T04:20:03Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-06-28T04:20:43Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-28T04:22:18Z beach joined #lisp 2014-06-28T04:22:32Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2014-06-28T04:28:07Z JuanDaugherty quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-28T04:28:12Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-06-28T04:29:52Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2014-06-28T04:31:23Z didi``` quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-28T04:33:57Z ahungry: Hey all, hi Beach 2014-06-28T04:34:42Z ahungry: put together a new project, after making, I realize it probably has some functional overlap with slime-proxy (slime to javascript), but if anyone is interested in taking a look https://github.com/ahungry/defjs 2014-06-28T04:35:01Z Beetny_ joined #lisp 2014-06-28T04:37:42Z boogie quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2014-06-28T04:37:50Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-06-28T04:38:20Z ahungry: Doesn't require adding anything to emacs itself, after a quickload lets you do a (defjs squared (x) (* x x)) to define a new function in your web page 2014-06-28T04:38:21Z jxv joined #lisp 2014-06-28T04:38:30Z ahungry: and it stays defined on page refreshes 2014-06-28T04:38:41Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-06-28T04:39:06Z ahungry: Then you can do (from the slime repl), (dojs (alert (squared 9))) for instance, and receive an alert in web browser for 81 2014-06-28T04:39:16Z ahungry: or set variables or something more useful in the dojs 2014-06-28T04:39:25Z beach: ahungry: It's too early for me to think clearly. What can this thing be used for? 2014-06-28T04:39:50Z ahungry: Javascript development with parenscript via slime+emacs 2014-06-28T04:40:15Z beach: OK, give me a scenario, please! 2014-06-28T04:40:28Z ahungry: like my game pseudo.ahungry.com has around 4000 lines of parenscript now 2014-06-28T04:40:36Z ahungry: and everytime I make a new function for it, I have to refresh browser 2014-06-28T04:40:42Z ahungry: with this, I can make a new function in the js side with (defjs... 2014-06-28T04:40:50Z ahungry: and instantly have it in my running game image 2014-06-28T04:41:00Z beach: OK, got it. Thanks. 2014-06-28T04:41:00Z ahungry: and call things manually from slime with (dojs 2014-06-28T04:41:02Z ahungry: np 2014-06-28T04:41:07Z ttmarek joined #lisp 2014-06-28T04:42:01Z ahungry: also I found paredit and syntax highlighting works better with emacs by using parenscript as top level definitions via the defjs macro, vs having some nested mess like (defun my-js-code () (ps (defun ....) (defun ...) etc 2014-06-28T04:48:30Z ttmarek: Does anyone know of a function in common lisp that can tell me the full path to my .lisp file. I'd like to be able to (internally) check where a given .lisp file is on a user's system. So far all I've found is the *default-pathname-defaults* variable which gives the directory where the lisp image was initially loaded, which doesn't help all too much. 2014-06-28T04:50:49Z beach: ttmarek: What would be the argument to such a function? 2014-06-28T04:52:36Z ttmarek: beach: I can't think of one...I guess that kind of information would probably be stored in a variable of sorts 2014-06-28T04:53:39Z beach: ttmarek: Well, if you don't know what to call this hypothetical function with, it is hard to figure out which function might do the trick. 2014-06-28T04:54:33Z Rptx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-28T04:55:04Z beach: ttmarek: I am sure you don't want this hypothetical function to guess what .lisp function you mean, or pick a random .lisp function on your system. 2014-06-28T04:56:43Z ttmarek: beach: lol, no....perhaps my wording was off...in python it would be something like: os.path.dirname(os.path.abspath(inspect.getfile(inspect.currentframe()))), I was just hoping cl would have something similar 2014-06-28T04:57:28Z the8thbit joined #lisp 2014-06-28T04:57:28Z beach: ttmarek: I don't know enough Python to understand what you mean. 2014-06-28T04:57:38Z phadthai: http://atariage.com/forums/uploads/monthly_08_2011/post-20208-0-54848900-1314124594.png 2014-06-28T04:58:11Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-28T05:00:27Z ttmarek: beach: say your coding in a file called something.lisp, you loaded common-lisp in a different directory than something.lisp (for whatever reason). From something.lisp how would you find the location of something.lisp? If that makes any sense 2014-06-28T05:00:44Z beach: phadthai: Displaying random URLs without any comment is typical spammer behavior. 2014-06-28T05:01:09Z beach: phadthai: I wish you would add a comment as to what it is, so that we can decide whether to click on it or not. 2014-06-28T05:01:47Z phadthai: beach: oh, an atari interlisp screenshot I think 2014-06-28T05:02:06Z ahungry: I've wondered something similar to ttmarek, like, if I am running file blub.lisp, one user may have it in ~/src/lisp/blub/blub.lisp, whlie another may have it in /var/www/vhosts/blub.lisp 2014-06-28T05:02:07Z beach: clhs *load-truename* 2014-06-28T05:02:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_ld_pns.htm 2014-06-28T05:02:17Z Beetny_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-28T05:02:19Z beach: ttmarek: That ^ maybe? 2014-06-28T05:02:28Z ahungry: and how can you reliably determine the path to the file itself 2014-06-28T05:02:42Z ahungry: php uses __FILE__ super global to do it 2014-06-28T05:05:02Z drmeiste_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-28T05:05:38Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-06-28T05:06:18Z ttmarek: beach: tested *load-truename*, just returned nil 2014-06-28T05:07:22Z ahungry: ttmarek: If you can force them to use quicklisp to load it, you could use, (quicklisp:where-is-system "whatever") 2014-06-28T05:07:36Z ahungry: that returns the path to the system defined by the asd 2014-06-28T05:08:07Z ahungry: if not usig quicklisp or the sbcl --script (or whatever lisp) and someone is just manually doing a (load "~/something.lisp"), not sure how to go about finding that 2014-06-28T05:08:42Z ahungry: quicklisp also has (quicklisp:list-local-projects) which givs a list of pathnames to local asd files/projects 2014-06-28T05:12:26Z beach: ttmarek: works for me: http://paste.lisp.org/+32D1 2014-06-28T05:12:45Z MjrTom`-` joined #lisp 2014-06-28T05:12:45Z MjrTom quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-28T05:12:53Z MjrTom`-` is now known as MjrTom 2014-06-28T05:12:55Z beach: ttmarek: Put that code in a file. Load it. Then call HELLO. 2014-06-28T05:13:14Z ttmarek: beach: k, one sec 2014-06-28T05:17:29Z ttmarek: beach: for me its now returning: #P"/tmp/fileySbxTi.fasl". I'm guessing this is because of quicklisp. 2014-06-28T05:23:18Z pjb: How is it not what you want? 2014-06-28T05:24:02Z MjrTom`-` joined #lisp 2014-06-28T05:24:03Z MjrTom quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-28T05:24:10Z MjrTom`-` is now known as MjrTom 2014-06-28T05:24:14Z ahungry: In my case it could be wanting to know the directory the user put the related files incase i want to load static assets 2014-06-28T05:24:17Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-28T05:25:02Z ttmarek: That's a good example 2014-06-28T05:25:07Z beach: ttmarek: http://paste.lisp.org/+32D1/1 2014-06-28T05:25:24Z pjb: Oh! Then call [NSBundle mainBundle]. 2014-06-28T05:26:06Z ttmarek: pjb: sorry, not sure what that means. I'm a bit new to lisp... 2014-06-28T05:26:24Z pjb: That means that there are tens of different ways to deploy a program. 2014-06-28T05:27:03Z pjb: *load-truename* and *compile-file-truename* do their thing, but it won't help if the user moves the bundle around. 2014-06-28T05:28:06Z pjb: Some OS help by telling the programs where they're stored, but in general in POSIX systems, you have to "install" and configure (either hard code, using a configuration file or environment variable) to find the resources. 2014-06-28T05:28:51Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-28T05:29:01Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-06-28T05:29:12Z pjb: That's why often unix applications are provided with a run script. So the script can pass to the executable the resource directory in parameters. 2014-06-28T05:29:46Z beach: ttmarek: My paste doesn't quite work, but you get the picture. You need to read the CLHS pages of those variables. 2014-06-28T05:30:38Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-06-28T05:30:46Z ttmarek: beach: Thanks so much, appreciate it...It gives that path to the file which is a hell of a start! Will do some homework now to better understand it. 2014-06-28T05:31:06Z beach: ttmarek: Good luck! 2014-06-28T05:31:41Z beach: pjb: Will you be in Montreal? 2014-06-28T05:33:14Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-28T05:33:36Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-28T05:36:19Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-06-28T05:36:55Z pjb: I don't think so. 2014-06-28T05:37:01Z beach: :( 2014-06-28T05:37:58Z pjb: Sounds interesting though. 2014-06-28T05:38:06Z beach: Yeah. 2014-06-28T05:38:32Z beach: It's not exactly cheap. Around 1kEUR roundtrip form Bx, plus hotel and registration. 2014-06-28T05:38:57Z pjb: did you use itasoftware? 2014-06-28T05:39:22Z beach: pjb: Don't know. I checked "kayak", but no better than Air France. 2014-06-28T05:39:38Z beach: ... unless I want to transfer from Gatwick to Heathrow. 2014-06-28T05:39:44Z beach: I am not interested in that. 2014-06-28T05:40:00Z beach: pjb: It would have been fun to chat about LispOS and such. Next time, I guess. 2014-06-28T05:40:24Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-28T05:41:22Z pjb: Cheapest is 894€ with a stop at LHR. 2014-06-28T05:41:47Z pjb: There were a few years when it was much cheaper… 2014-06-28T05:42:04Z beach: It is not easy to get from Bx to Heathrow. 2014-06-28T05:42:24Z beach: Anyway, it's only money. Not important. 2014-06-28T05:42:34Z aksr joined #lisp 2014-06-28T05:43:08Z pjb: Skype conference? 2014-06-28T05:43:31Z beach: I have papers to present, so I guess I should be there in person. 2014-06-28T05:43:35Z pjb: They could set it up for important people like you ;-) 2014-06-28T05:43:45Z beach: Heh! 2014-06-28T05:43:57Z beach: I think I can afford it. 2014-06-28T05:44:21Z pjb: Anyways, that's the occasion to stay a few weeks more in the country. 2014-06-28T05:44:31Z beach: Right. 2014-06-28T05:44:41Z beach: The weather is nice there at that time of year, I hear. 2014-06-28T05:45:54Z beach: pjb: Speaking of LispOS, did you read the chapter on checkpointing I wrote recently? 2014-06-28T05:46:22Z beach: pjb: It's an improvement (provided it works, that is) of what EROS does. 2014-06-28T05:46:33Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-28T05:46:52Z jleija quit (Quit: good night everyone) 2014-06-28T05:47:11Z beach: If it works, it might be publishable. 2014-06-28T05:47:42Z beach: Apparently, orthogonal persistence has fallen out of fashion. 2014-06-28T05:47:51Z beach: So not much has been done since EROS. 2014-06-28T05:53:48Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-28T05:56:02Z pjb: Yes, I had a look at it. But I need to read it again. In any case, let's just wait a few years for the new HP hardware :-) 2014-06-28T05:57:36Z beach: Heh! 2014-06-28T05:57:53Z beach: Yes, I basically agree. 2014-06-28T05:58:26Z pjb: Well, the guy behind EROS found out that he needed to design a new programming language to write his OS. So of course, he invented some kind of typed lisp (BitC), spent a lot of time with it, along with a new conception (coyotos). And then he got hired by Microsoft, so it essentially stopped his work on that. Nowadays he's done with Microsoft, but work doesn't seem to have resumed much with BitC or coyotos. 2014-06-28T05:58:29Z beach: But if it is publishable, that has value in itself. No need to implement it. 2014-06-28T05:58:32Z pjb: I guess he grew a family. 2014-06-28T05:58:53Z beach: Shapiro? 2014-06-28T05:58:56Z pjb: Yes. 2014-06-28T05:59:17Z beach: I talked to him at RMLL in Dijon I think it was. 2014-06-28T05:59:37Z beach: It seemed clear that he was in it for the publications and the funding. 2014-06-28T05:59:48Z wheelsucker quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-28T05:59:49Z beach: (he might not have had a choice) 2014-06-28T06:00:12Z beach: I need to go take my bread out of the oven. 2014-06-28T06:00:15Z beach: BRB 2014-06-28T06:00:19Z pjb: Bon appetit! 2014-06-28T06:00:33Z beach: Not going to eat it now. Just make sure it doesn't burn. 2014-06-28T06:04:17Z beach: Anyway, so Shapiro probably he had to work on whatever was funded that day. 2014-06-28T06:04:49Z beach: And as I said, orthogonal persistence fell out of fashion, and security became fashionable instead. 2014-06-28T06:05:17Z beach: So he had to abandon EROS and work on Cyotos instead. 2014-06-28T06:05:35Z beach: I am mostly guessing of course, but it seems plausible. 2014-06-28T06:07:10Z beach: This is what happens with the funding systems of today. 2014-06-28T06:09:07Z forgottenone quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-28T06:09:11Z beach: I recommend a book called "The Dream Machine" by M. Mitchell Waldrop. It's about a man named J.C.R. Licklider who funded "strange" projects, many of which are the basis of the computing technology we use today. 2014-06-28T06:09:28Z pjb: Noted. 2014-06-28T06:09:42Z beach: http://www.amazon.com/The-Dream-Machine-Licklider-Revolution/dp/0670899763 2014-06-28T06:11:30Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-28T06:16:26Z ggole joined #lisp 2014-06-28T06:20:56Z MjrTom quit (Quit: Planet Earth is blue, and there's nothing I can do) 2014-06-28T06:23:18Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-28T06:31:06Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-28T06:32:24Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2014-06-28T06:33:08Z Ragnaroek quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-28T06:35:44Z chenjf joined #lisp 2014-06-28T06:37:11Z chenjf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-28T06:40:10Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-06-28T06:41:00Z kobain quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-28T06:46:55Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-28T06:47:17Z banjara joined #lisp 2014-06-28T06:52:26Z teiresias quit (Quit: leaving) 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the connection) 2014-06-28T08:57:10Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-06-28T08:58:20Z oleo: morning 2014-06-28T08:59:21Z beach: Hello oleo. 2014-06-28T08:59:35Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-28T08:59:39Z oleo: hello beach 2014-06-28T09:02:17Z Eyes quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-28T09:03:14Z beach: moore33: I think we should come up with some presentation types that we would like for the system to handle, and then see whether they can be represented using your idea, or mine, or a combination of them. 2014-06-28T09:03:53Z beach: moore33: In particular, we should try to find presentation types that require parameters for things like intervals. 2014-06-28T09:03:55Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-28T09:05:21Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-28T09:05:32Z the8thbit quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-28T09:10:00Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-28T09:15:41Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: 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I just recently decided to watch some of the videos from this year's ILC, and I was ecstatic when I saw just how many presentations on parallel computing and scientific computation there were 2014-06-28T20:50:18Z kristof: I cannot wait to make my way through these :^) 2014-06-28T20:50:43Z kristof: That, and the recent developments with STMX, and Lfarm/Lparallel make me a pretty happy camper 2014-06-28T20:52:55Z Krystof joined #lisp 2014-06-28T20:55:16Z _schulte_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-28T20:57:36Z z0d quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-28T21:00:18Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-28T21:02:23Z amaron joined #lisp 2014-06-28T21:03:21Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-28T21:04:39Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-28T21:07:35Z seangrov` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-28T21:08:41Z Krystof quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-28T21:10:49Z innertracks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-28T21:11:05Z drmeiste_ quit 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2014-06-29T04:11:35Z kcj: Your wrong man. 2014-06-29T04:11:39Z kcj: You're* 2014-06-29T04:11:41Z kcj: :( 2014-06-29T04:12:59Z beach is always surprised by the endless fascination provided by the existence of time zones. 2014-06-29T04:17:28Z kcj: beach: Well at least we're in the same day. (I think.) 2014-06-29T04:17:45Z leo2007 joined #lisp 2014-06-29T04:19:27Z beach: Sunday here. 2014-06-29T04:19:54Z Bike: i dunno, this seems complicated. are you saying there's more than one sun? i don't understand 2014-06-29T04:20:16Z beach: Bike: Heh! 2014-06-29T04:21:44Z p_l: 'morning 2014-06-29T04:21:49Z axion: good night 2014-06-29T04:22:13Z beach: Oh dear! 2014-06-29T04:22:15Z axion: if you open a paren, and i close one, is the world a sexp for a split moment? 2014-06-29T04:22:33Z beach: p_l: Up late again? 2014-06-29T04:22:48Z p_l: yes 2014-06-29T04:22:56Z p_l: couldn't fall asleep, decided to try reset the clock 2014-06-29T04:23:14Z p_l: (and went and delved deep into near-field radio communications again) 2014-06-29T04:24:22Z beach: Bike: What is it that you dislike about CL's loading model? 2014-06-29T04:24:46Z Bike: It's based on having an image that you load things into with procedural code. 2014-06-29T04:24:49Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-29T04:25:11Z p_l: well... C has the same model in practice, it's just "hidden" from most 2014-06-29T04:25:16Z beach: Bike: What would be a better model? 2014-06-29T04:25:22Z Bike: at least you can distribute sos 2014-06-29T04:25:57Z kcj: Sometimes I ride bikes. 2014-06-29T04:26:01Z kcj glares at Bike 2014-06-29T04:26:04Z Bike: plus SOs generally have enough information that you can look at them a bit without loading them. 2014-06-29T04:27:13Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2014-06-29T04:27:37Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-29T04:28:38Z p_l: Bike: IMO SO-like model is definitely possible for Lisp, but it would need support from implementation 2014-06-29T04:28:44Z beach: Wouldn't it be intrinsically difficult for CL to use the .so model though, because of how things are allocated. 2014-06-29T04:28:56Z p_l: beach: not realy 2014-06-29T04:28:58Z p_l: *really 2014-06-29T04:29:39Z beach: What would happen to code in the .so that is no longer referred to? 2014-06-29T04:29:43Z p_l: beach: the only real difference between SO and SBCL's image/fasl formats is a bunch of non-text segments 2014-06-29T04:30:20Z p_l: which contain symbol map describing symbols that have to be linked from external source and which are exported by library 2014-06-29T04:30:47Z p_l: beach: you could mmap a SO in COW mode (this how it is actually done on Linux at least) 2014-06-29T04:31:10Z p_l: and use relocation table or symbol table to replace references to functions you replaced at runtime 2014-06-29T04:31:39Z beach: But that would place some restrictions on the structure of the CL heap, wouldn't it? 2014-06-29T04:32:40Z p_l: beach: not ones that would be truly problematic, IMO, except maybe for some more hw page alignments in places 2014-06-29T04:33:00Z p_l: I think Bike is more grumbling about lack of a true module system that would be declarative :) 2014-06-29T04:33:15Z p_l: (as SO are procedurally loaded and linked by userland program) 2014-06-29T04:33:58Z Bike: that's what i'm thinking, yes. of course the actual way it's done isn't so important. 2014-06-29T04:33:59Z Krystof joined #lisp 2014-06-29T04:34:24Z p_l: what you'd need is support from implementation for higher-order manipulation of image itself 2014-06-29T04:34:26Z Bike: i just think it's ridiculous that we develop all these fasl formats for no other reason than making loading a bit faster than compiling from source. 2014-06-29T04:35:09Z p_l: then you could have a bit of lisp code perform an assembly of image from components before running in it, possibly doing whatever module magic you want 2014-06-29T04:35:39Z p_l: Bike: ECL actually uses SOs/DLLs for fasls 2014-06-29T04:36:03Z Bike: Do they just export a loading function? 2014-06-29T04:36:13Z p_l: Bike: afaik no 2014-06-29T04:36:42Z p_l: don't have ECL handy, but afaik they have their own mangling scheme for symbols 2014-06-29T04:36:46Z p_l: just like C++ :P 2014-06-29T04:37:03Z nanashi`` joined #lisp 2014-06-29T04:37:13Z p_l: some bits are done by functions that perform necessary household tasks... just like in C/C++ 2014-06-29T04:38:48Z Bike: really, what i'd especially prefer is if the dumping process could be more first-class. for example i don't see any reason a lisp shouldn't be able to generate functions at runtime (like for some kind of programming utility) and dump them without writing out source. 2014-06-29T04:40:19Z p_l: Bike: doesn't CL:COMPILE work with forms passed in directly? 2014-06-29T04:40:29Z Bike: sure. compile-file doesn't. 2014-06-29T04:40:43Z p_l: but yes, first-class images would be nice 2014-06-29T04:40:45Z Bike: you can compile source at runtime with cl:compile but then it's just in your image. 2014-06-29T04:41:04Z p_l: save-lisp-and-die for example could be done by issuing fork and "attaching" the resulting process, in stopped state, for editing 2014-06-29T04:41:05Z Bike: and i think we all know save-lisp-and-die is kind of daft. 2014-06-29T04:45:32Z beach: Bike: I agree that FASLs are silly. They were probably less silly when computers were slower. 2014-06-29T04:45:42Z Bike: and everything was a lisp machine. 2014-06-29T04:45:58Z Bike: i think the model in CL is pretty obviously bent towards a persistent server kind of deal, which is okay, but you can do other things with computers. 2014-06-29T04:46:20Z beach: It seems to me that many of the restrictions we have to live with are due to the braindead operating systems we have to deal with. 2014-06-29T04:47:58Z YDJX quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-29T04:47:58Z p_l: sometimes they are "braindead" because pies don't float in the sky 2014-06-29T04:49:02Z Bike: i think elf is okay. if CL was at least at the level of how people actually use elf i probably wouldn't mind. 2014-06-29T04:49:03Z p_l: there's a lot "hidden" under a thin veneer that most never look under, like the fact that dynamically-loaded ELF binaries are run by an interpreter 2014-06-29T04:49:25Z Bike: yeah, learning that was interesting. 2014-06-29T04:49:53Z p_l: or how with MMAP-like interfaces, you essentially get to play with pagetables 2014-06-29T04:50:00Z p_l: (though implementations underneath vary) 2014-06-29T04:50:05Z Bike: But I think actual lisps do enough that they could throw in something like that. I mean, sbcl fasls are their own stack-based language for god's sake 2014-06-29T04:50:06Z beach: p_l: What interpreter are you referring to? 2014-06-29T04:50:56Z p_l: beach: each ELF executable has a field in header that specifies an "interpreter", which is an application that is run to load and run the executable 2014-06-29T04:50:59Z Bike: PT_INTERP, presumably 2014-06-29T04:51:09Z beach: p_l: I see. 2014-06-29T04:51:19Z p_l: beach: this is how shared libraries are done on Linux (and pretty much all ELF-based systems) 2014-06-29T04:51:21Z Bike: which i think is ld.so? i forget 2014-06-29T04:51:27Z Bike: ld something, anyway 2014-06-29T04:51:37Z p_l: well, on linux it's usually called ld.so 2014-06-29T04:51:44Z p_l: (with some extra bits about platform etc. 2014-06-29T04:51:45Z p_l: ) 2014-06-29T04:51:48Z Bike: right, yeah. i haven't used bsd or anything 2014-06-29T04:51:52Z beach: Bike: For SICL, I am thinking of a FASL format that will be MMAPed, executed as a CL function with INTERN, etc as arguments, then MUNMAPed. 2014-06-29T04:52:08Z Bike: that sounds implementationy. 2014-06-29T04:52:15Z Bike: and yeah, i remember. 2014-06-29T04:52:16Z beach: Sure. 2014-06-29T04:52:42Z beach: It is hard to make anything implementation independent in CL. 2014-06-29T04:53:11Z Bike: well yeah. i mean i'd rather have this piesky stuff of mine be in some kind of standard. 2014-06-29T04:53:34Z p_l: beach: something that would provide, even simplified, an interface alike .NET AppDomain stuff, would be a nice thing 2014-06-29T04:54:00Z beach: p_l: I don't know about that. I would have to read up. 2014-06-29T04:54:15Z p_l: AppDomains are essentially "full images", except you can have multiple in a process and you have interfaces to manipulate them 2014-06-29T04:54:41Z p_l: so you can for example load a DLL and run it inside another AppDomain etc. 2014-06-29T04:54:52Z beach: I see. 2014-06-29T04:56:01Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-29T04:59:24Z beach: p_l: Even Multics was a lot less braindead than Unix. We took a giant leap backward when Unix replaced Multics. 2014-06-29T04:59:32Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2014-06-29T04:59:41Z beach: ... and we haven't caught up yet. 2014-06-29T05:00:40Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-29T05:01:23Z p_l: beach: TBH, I am not so sure. A mix of "purer" Unix (read: Plan9) with Spring OS, and possibly the things only recently developed in things like seL4, would be a much better environment IMO 2014-06-29T05:01:54Z beach: Better than Multics? 2014-06-29T05:02:07Z p_l: that said, I can't even check out Multics because it was so married to a special snowflake architecture that LispMachines are off-the-shelf hw in comparison 2014-06-29T05:02:39Z p_l: beach: seL4 is actually formally verified for security on OS interfaces 2014-06-29T05:02:57Z p_l: currently waiting for the damn open sourcing to happen (in ~30 days) 2014-06-29T05:03:52Z mac_ified quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-29T05:04:23Z p_l: Spring OS and Plan9 are both 180° to each others direction yet at the same time nearly identical - you have a common namespace mechanism and a method of communication/calls over it, and unlike Mach, Spring actually had fast IPC 2014-06-29T05:05:04Z p_l: (fast IPC also happens on L4, and afaik on QNX. Mach however made microkernels have a very, very bad reputation) 2014-06-29T05:05:53Z Bike: https://twitter.com/secboffin/status/481240934227525632/photo/1 2014-06-29T05:05:59Z Guest38074 is now known as sellout 2014-06-29T05:06:24Z beach: p_l: I understand what you are arguing. But I don't agree with your assessment of Multics. Not that it matters much. 2014-06-29T05:07:11Z beach: Bike: Heh! Nice! 2014-06-29T05:08:07Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-29T05:09:16Z p_l: beach: I'm not saying Multics was not nice or anything. But the fact is that it was never moved outside of its architecture in any way, while even more "special" systems survived 2014-06-29T05:09:45Z beach: p_l: I know the facts about it. Yes. 2014-06-29T05:10:24Z p_l: also, at least some breakage in unix was attributed to influence of an operating system that shared some design elements with multics, afaik (namely the memory-mapping as basic abstraction) 2014-06-29T05:10:25Z beach: p_l: That doesn't mean the ideas should be dismissed, as we all know. 2014-06-29T05:11:28Z p_l: beach: yes, but I can't even truly evaluate them, or at least fuller documentation is hard to get (while reading the special PL/I variant of remaining sourcecode is possible, it IS a daunting task. More so than REing Genera) 2014-06-29T05:12:17Z beach: p_l: Sure, don't bother. I am not arguing in favor of reviving Multics in its existing incarnation. 2014-06-29T05:12:23Z nanashi`` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-29T05:13:21Z nanashi`` joined #lisp 2014-06-29T05:13:24Z p_l: that said, if you have any good documents (in english) about Multics architecture, environment, etc, I'd happily read them :) 2014-06-29T05:13:31Z beach: It wasn't a special PL/I variant. Just a very competent implementation of it. Better than other implementations, and in many respects much more competent than C. 2014-06-29T05:14:07Z beach: p_l: Oh, there is an entire site about it: multicians.org as I recall. But again, it is probably not worth your time. 2014-06-29T05:14:19Z yacks quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-29T05:14:30Z p_l: beach: multicians.org was a bit scatterbrained last time I accessed it 2014-06-29T05:15:04Z beach: Yeah, like I said, you probably shouldn't bother. 2014-06-29T05:15:11Z nanashi``: Hi lispers, ever heard of unconditional programming? The idea is that programming without the use of if-then-else or the like. 2014-06-29T05:15:32Z Bike: like APL? 2014-06-29T05:15:42Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-29T05:16:03Z beach: APL was fun, fun! 2014-06-29T05:16:52Z nanashi``: Bike: I am not sure. 2014-06-29T05:19:49Z p_l: if you allow guards/pattern matching, you can dispense with if-then-else by using apropriately structured functions ;) 2014-06-29T05:20:26Z p_l: also, do we count a combination of AND/OR/XOR and JMP instruction to be if-then-else? ;> 2014-06-29T05:20:43Z nanashi``: maybe 2014-06-29T05:21:32Z beach: Bike is right though. APL-style programming didn't use conditionals very much. 2014-06-29T05:21:38Z Bike: something something turing equivalence, suggestion that this criterion is not coherent, something something 2014-06-29T05:22:16Z p_l: APL always looked to me like "how to cram as much number crunching for statistics in single punched card" 2014-06-29T05:22:19Z nanashi``: or maybe not, if-then-else is not as "mechanical" as logic operators. 2014-06-29T05:23:00Z p_l: not that it's a bad thing, just APL to me feels uniquely fitting to a dataflow-like situation where it's one "block" in a bigger flow 2014-06-29T05:23:33Z Bike: p_l: not that i've done a whole lot of APL but it's my understanding that you'd usually use something like an Iverson bracket rather than a control structure 2014-06-29T05:29:40Z joneshf-laptop_ joined #lisp 2014-06-29T05:30:36Z beach: APL example: Suppose you have a vector v of numbers, and you want to compute the sum of the elements greater than 5. Step 1 compute v>5. This is a vector of 1s and 0s (Booleans basically). 2014-06-29T05:31:08Z Bike: clearly, APL's legacy lives on in matlab. 2014-06-29T05:31:20Z beach: Step 2: multiply the original vector and the new one: v*(v>5). This is a vector with the original elements > 5 and 0 elsewhere. 2014-06-29T05:31:49Z beach: Step 3: Sum the elements with /+: /+v*(v>5) 2014-06-29T05:32:09Z beach: [All from memory. Could be slightly wrong.] 2014-06-29T05:32:25Z beach: Bike: So I hear, yes. 2014-06-29T05:33:12Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-29T05:33:32Z Bike: sum(v.*(v>5)), i think it would be 2014-06-29T05:34:49Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-29T05:35:08Z p_l: that "sum" looks a bit un-APLish. Might be from some PC variant ;) 2014-06-29T05:35:47Z Bike: yeah, matlab is actually terrible. the comparison getting you a boolean vector is standard, though. 2014-06-29T05:36:14Z Bike: but then you can use a function 'find' that gets you a vector of indices of nonzero values, which probably isn't very apl 2014-06-29T05:44:29Z beach was fairly sure about the /+ thing. Maybe his memory is failing. :( 2014-06-29T05:47:49Z beach: nanashi``: Is "unconditional programming" like "functional programming", i.e., someone decided that conditionals have problems sometimes, so we create a programming style that outlaws them. Then we write papers about it, and get funding for creating new programming languages, we create IRC channels and conferences and journals, etc. 2014-06-29T05:48:24Z p_l: don't forget being smug about it 2014-06-29T05:48:32Z beach: Sorry, forgot! 2014-06-29T05:49:03Z Bike: beach: Oh, I meant in matlab. matlab . is like apl / i think. 2014-06-29T05:49:27Z Bike: not that matlab has uh, what would that be? an "adverb"? i always thought the apl dictionary thing was cute 2014-06-29T05:49:30Z beach: Bike: Whew! 2014-06-29T05:49:55Z Bike: er. no. they're not equivalent, one's a fold. blah. 2014-06-29T05:53:38Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2014-06-29T05:54:25Z nanashi`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-29T05:56:00Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-29T05:56:54Z nanashi` joined #lisp 2014-06-29T05:57:49Z mac_ified quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-29T06:01:42Z radioninja joined #lisp 2014-06-29T06:03:23Z quiggles joined #lisp 2014-06-29T06:05:43Z common-lisper joined #lisp 2014-06-29T06:09:36Z aksr joined #lisp 2014-06-29T06:10:58Z The_third_man quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-29T06:11:28Z common-lisper quit (Quit: Yaaic - 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I'll check LiSP. 2014-06-29T08:04:10Z beach: http://www.ling.ohio-state.edu/research/groups/commies/past/autumn2009/strachey-wadsworth2000.pdf 2014-06-29T08:04:20Z beach: That one must be one of the early papers. 2014-06-29T08:04:54Z beach: Using the ACM online library, you can do a forward search if it's not in that paper. 2014-06-29T08:06:01Z jchochli quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-29T08:08:20Z beach: Hmm. I wonder whether there has been a systematic translation of the standard compiler optimization algorithms (where the program is represented as a graph) to using CPS instead. 2014-06-29T08:09:08Z beach: Some of the algorithms, like constant propagation, have been translated I seem to remember. 2014-06-29T08:10:03Z beach: But what about the more complex ones like partial redundancy elimination and value numbering? 2014-06-29T08:13:50Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-06-29T08:18:07Z dbushenko quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-29T08:18:30Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-06-29T08:19:58Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2014-06-29T08:20:09Z leo2007: beach: thanks for LiSP which explains lots of things. 2014-06-29T08:20:47Z jchochli quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-29T08:20:54Z beach: Oh, good! Do you have it? 2014-06-29T08:21:15Z beach has it, but can't get to it right now. 2014-06-29T08:22:48Z leo2007: beach: yes 2014-06-29T08:25:17Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-29T08:26:41Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-06-29T08:26:53Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-06-29T08:27:47Z karswell joined #lisp 2014-06-29T08:29:06Z beach: leo2007: Are you planning to write a compiler? 2014-06-29T08:30:24Z raschwell joined #lisp 2014-06-29T08:30:59Z dbushenko joined #lisp 2014-06-29T08:32:30Z stassats: how well does CPS deal with assignments? 2014-06-29T08:32:36Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-06-29T08:32:55Z ggole joined #lisp 2014-06-29T08:33:03Z stassats: SBCL's version of it does poorly 2014-06-29T08:34:05Z beach: Hmm, I can't remember what they do now. 2014-06-29T08:34:27Z beach: But I think a CPS which is equivalent to SSA would not need any. 2014-06-29T08:36:27Z leo2007: beach: not really 2014-06-29T08:36:48Z stassats: beach: but one allows for some optimizations to be easier 2014-06-29T08:37:08Z jchochli quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-29T08:37:09Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-29T08:39:02Z nanashi`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-29T08:42:08Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2014-06-29T08:42:34Z beach: My intuition is that CPS in itself does not have a problem representing assignments. 2014-06-29T08:42:39Z ferada joined #lisp 2014-06-29T08:43:12Z beach: But you would have the same problem with certain optimizations as you would when you represent your program as a flow graph with arbitrary assignments. 2014-06-29T08:43:35Z beach: Converting the flow graph to SSA makes optimizations easier. 2014-06-29T08:44:05Z stassats: SBCL has a trouble with type propagation, maybe it's just being lazy 2014-06-29T08:44:20Z malbertife joined #lisp 2014-06-29T08:45:09Z Sir_herrbatka quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-29T08:45:13Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-29T08:45:33Z beach: Type propagation is easier with SSA because different "versions" of the same variable can have different types. 2014-06-29T08:46:12Z monod joined #lisp 2014-06-29T08:47:06Z beach: So if you are going to use CPS, it seems it would be better to use SSA/CPS whatever that means. I don't even know whether there is a known method for converting an arbitrary CPS program to SSA/CPS. 2014-06-29T08:49:32Z ggole quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2014-06-29T08:50:00Z ggole joined #lisp 2014-06-29T08:52:27Z Sir_herrbatka joined #lisp 2014-06-29T08:52:55Z amaron joined #lisp 2014-06-29T09:01:47Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2014-06-29T09:01:48Z bcoburn` joined #lisp 2014-06-29T09:07:07Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-06-29T09:07:12Z The_third_man joined #lisp 2014-06-29T09:08:34Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-29T09:10:15Z jxv quit (Quit: QUIT) 2014-06-29T09:10:32Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-29T09:11:20Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-29T09:13:30Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-29T09:13:35Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-29T09:14:35Z monod quit (Quit: Quit) 2014-06-29T09:17:00Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-06-29T09:19:05Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-29T09:19:08Z jchochli quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-29T09:20:38Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-29T09:22:32Z jewel_ joined #lisp 2014-06-29T09:23:32Z vinleod quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-06-29T09:23:47Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-29T09:25:53Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-29T09:32:37Z maxpeck joined #lisp 2014-06-29T09:32:42Z maxpeck quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-06-29T09:32:48Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2014-06-29T09:33:14Z maxpeck joined #lisp 2014-06-29T09:37:54Z beach` joined #lisp 2014-06-29T09:38:51Z _zxq9_ joined #lisp 2014-06-29T09:39:15Z ttm joined #lisp 2014-06-29T09:41:30Z hitecnologys_ joined #lisp 2014-06-29T09:41:34Z Jesperhead joined #lisp 2014-06-29T09:42:59Z Jesperhead: #stumpwm seems to be quiet this time of the day. Attempting to run it for the first time and I receive "socket error in "connect":2" (no restarts). I recognize this error being thrown in the lisp interface. anyone familiar with stumpwm and has seen this before? 2014-06-29T09:44:02Z madrik quit (Quit: sleep) 2014-06-29T09:44:56Z amaron quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-29T09:45:22Z The_third_man quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-29T09:45:22Z Sir_herrbatka quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-29T09:45:22Z hitecnologys quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-29T09:45:22Z Blaguvest quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-29T09:45:22Z YDJX quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-29T09:45:22Z beach quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-29T09:45:22Z zxq9 quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-29T09:45:22Z matko quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-29T09:45:22Z Lebbe quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-29T09:47:34Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2014-06-29T09:48:54Z Jesperhead: ignore. 2014-06-29T09:48:59Z Jesperhead left #lisp 2014-06-29T09:49:59Z YDJX joined #lisp 2014-06-29T09:51:44Z Sir_herrbatka joined #lisp 2014-06-29T09:52:13Z tesuji joined #lisp 2014-06-29T09:53:00Z Lebbe joined #lisp 2014-06-29T09:55:16Z 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Connection timed out) 2014-06-29T11:21:59Z jewel_ joined #lisp 2014-06-29T11:23:37Z billitch joined #lisp 2014-06-29T11:23:38Z hitecnologys_ is now known as hitecnologys 2014-06-29T11:26:42Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-29T11:30:04Z test1600 joined #lisp 2014-06-29T11:32:39Z ener2 joined #lisp 2014-06-29T11:32:57Z ener2: in lispworks, is there a way to get function body out of function? 2014-06-29T11:33:24Z Xach: ener2: i don't know about lispworks specifically, but function-lambda-expression might do it. 2014-06-29T11:34:21Z ener2: Xach: thanks 2014-06-29T11:34:37Z ener2: works fine, for interpereted, now I wonder if there is something like that for compiled or if the source is just discarded 2014-06-29T11:37:46Z jewel_ quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2014-06-29T11:38:02Z pillton joined #lisp 2014-06-29T11:38:28Z jewel_ joined #lisp 2014-06-29T11:40:03Z hitecnologys: clhs disassemble 2014-06-29T11:40:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_disass.htm 2014-06-29T11:41:04Z hitecnologys: I don't think there's decompiler that supports CL. 2014-06-29T11:42:44Z ck_: hitecnologys: this is off topic, but, regarding http://hitecnologys.org/2/ , I asked you about the expression "writing bicycles". 2014-06-29T11:43:46Z hitecnologys: ck_: that's the pharse I made out. It means the same thing as "reinvent the wheel". 2014-06-29T11:44:05Z ck_: hitecnologys: was that your translation of "kurolesit" ? (no cyrillic on this terminal) 2014-06-29T11:46:22Z ener2: how can I get function out of method object? 2014-06-29T11:46:40Z stassats: mop m-f 2014-06-29T11:46:41Z specbot: method-function: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/method-function.html 2014-06-29T11:46:47Z Lebbe quit (*.net *.split) 2014-06-29T11:47:00Z ener2: stassats: thanks 2014-06-29T11:48:08Z nanashi`` joined #lisp 2014-06-29T11:48:17Z hitecnologys: ck_: not really. It was literal translation of писать велосипеды (pisat' velosipedy, write bicycles) which came from изобретать велосипеды (izobretat' velosipedy, reinvent bicycles). But куролесить (kurolesit') means something similar, I guess. 2014-06-29T11:48:37Z hitecnologys: Apology for off-topic. 2014-06-29T11:48:38Z ck_: hitecnologys: thank you very much 2014-06-29T11:48:56Z hitecnologys: ck_: no problem. 2014-06-29T11:49:07Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2014-06-29T11:50:16Z hitecnologys: ck_: I just couldn't remember English idiom for that so I came out with my own. Bad practice, I know. 2014-06-29T11:51:01Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-29T11:52:37Z _zxq9_ is now known as zxq9 2014-06-29T11:52:40Z zxq9 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-29T11:52:48Z zxq9 joined #lisp 2014-06-29T11:54:34Z jewel_ quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2014-06-29T11:55:01Z Lebbe joined #lisp 2014-06-29T11:55:08Z jewel_ joined #lisp 2014-06-29T11:56:08Z Zhivago: Just make it a classic. 2014-06-29T11:56:26Z Zhivago: Start dropping 'writing bicycles' on talk shows and you'll be there in no-time. 2014-06-29T11:57:57Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-06-29T11:58:15Z ck_: using it in an article, then referencing that from a newly edited wikipedia article is also known to work well 2014-06-29T11:59:19Z Shinmera: Make a TED talk about it 2014-06-29T11:59:36Z hitecnologys: May be dangerous. 2014-06-29T12:01:29Z hitecnologys: If I start once, I probably won't be able to stop. 2014-06-29T12:02:09Z Zhivago: You could become as famous as that timecube guy. 2014-06-29T12:02:20Z jchochli quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-29T12:03:03Z hitecnologys: That's what I'm afraid of too. 2014-06-29T12:07:42Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-29T12:08:24Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-29T12:09:00Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-06-29T12:11:20Z jewel_ quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2014-06-29T12:12:09Z jewel_ joined #lisp 2014-06-29T12:13:30Z jchochli quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-29T12:16:05Z GuilOooo_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-29T12:18:23Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-29T12:20:35Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-29T12:22:29Z Praise- is now known as Praise 2014-06-29T12:29:04Z malbertife joined #lisp 2014-06-29T12:29:08Z jewel_ quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2014-06-29T12:29:44Z GuilOooo joined #lisp 2014-06-29T12:31:37Z jewel_ joined #lisp 2014-06-29T12:31:54Z ener2: is there a way to get body of the method? 2014-06-29T12:32:00Z ener2: I have made this function: 2014-06-29T12:32:13Z ener2: http://pastebin.com/KZiCdeHP 2014-06-29T12:32:21Z ener2: but it is more hack than function 2014-06-29T12:33:11Z Xach: ener2: why do you want to do it? 2014-06-29T12:33:20Z ener2: I want to export method definition 2014-06-29T12:35:06Z Xach: Why? Usually such things are written into files. 2014-06-29T12:35:43Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-29T12:37:54Z ener2: well that is part of what I have decided to do as part of thesis 2014-06-29T12:38:14Z ener2: you define your own code and you should be able to export whole simulation to a file 2014-06-29T12:38:39Z Xach: How do you define the code? 2014-06-29T12:38:47Z ener2: standard lisp 2014-06-29T12:38:50Z ener2: let me show you source 2014-06-29T12:39:12Z maxpeck joined #lisp 2014-06-29T12:39:21Z Xach: ener2: I mean, how do you create it? Is it created by a function that returns source code? Do you write it by hand? 2014-06-29T12:39:22Z hitecnologys: Why don't you just save the original code somewhere else? 2014-06-29T12:39:30Z ener2: http://code.google.com/p/cl-ass/source/browse/trunk/cl-ass.lisp 2014-06-29T12:39:52Z ener2: example is from line 196 to 271 2014-06-29T12:41:14Z hitecnologys: I'd define my own macro instead of DEFMETHOD which would save code to another place. 2014-06-29T12:41:36Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-06-29T12:41:52Z ener2: well that is one option, true, but I would like to use as much of clos as possible 2014-06-29T12:42:01Z ener2: but if that is not possible I guess I can't do anything else 2014-06-29T12:42:09Z hitecnologys: You can't get function code back once it compiled. 2014-06-29T12:42:50Z ener2: that is true, but predictable. If you compile, it wont be exported as of now 2014-06-29T12:42:59Z Xach: ener2: there might be a way. the lispworks list can be very helpful. but you may have to resort to saving it in advance yourself. 2014-06-29T12:43:47Z hitecnologys: ener2: I wouldn't rely on the fact that the function won't be compiled by the time you need its code. 2014-06-29T12:50:00Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-29T12:50:26Z ener2: hitecnologys: well it is even better if compiled functions are not included in the export 2014-06-29T12:51:01Z ener2: because then for instance my system functions wont be exported (because they are already included in the export file via direct source code copy) 2014-06-29T12:52:42Z Shinmera: Haha yes! Open Raster loading support! http://shinmera.tymoon.eu/public/screenshot-2014.06.29-14:52:20.png 2014-06-29T12:53:09Z hitecnologys: ener2: then I don't understand what exactly are you trying to achieve. Do you want program to update its own source files once it's modified in run time? 2014-06-29T12:53:18Z jewel_ quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2014-06-29T12:53:33Z ener2: hitecnologys: the idea is that someone who uses my framework will define simulation 2014-06-29T12:53:40Z ener2: and then can export it to complete file 2014-06-29T12:53:44Z ener2: which then includes 2014-06-29T12:54:07Z ener2: my framework, any other lisp files author wants, and then all defined methods for simulation and the components 2014-06-29T12:54:10Z jewel_ joined #lisp 2014-06-29T12:55:35Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-29T12:55:45Z hitecnologys: ener2: err, the code is already in the file. Why do you need to export it when you can just copy it? 2014-06-29T12:56:07Z ener2: it doesnt have to be 2014-06-29T12:56:52Z moore33 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-29T12:58:12Z hitecnologys: Then try doing what Xach advised. 2014-06-29T12:59:42Z Sir_herrbatka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-29T13:03:20Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-29T13:05:10Z Sir_herrbatka joined #lisp 2014-06-29T13:05:37Z nanashi`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-29T13:11:16Z jewel_ quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2014-06-29T13:12:07Z jewel_ joined #lisp 2014-06-29T13:13:01Z samebchase: What's the easiest way to do a DNS lookup on a domain? 2014-06-29T13:14:49Z ck_: http://cliki.net/site/search?query=dns ; the easiest-easiest way is to call the system's nslookup though :) 2014-06-29T13:16:23Z Guest30035 joined #lisp 2014-06-29T13:17:34Z samebchase: Thanks 2014-06-29T13:19:09Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-29T13:20:56Z FracV quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-29T13:21:18Z FracV joined #lisp 2014-06-29T13:22:50Z qiemem joined #lisp 2014-06-29T13:24:45Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2014-06-29T13:29:31Z jewel_ quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2014-06-29T13:29:40Z tensorpudding left #lisp 2014-06-29T13:30:13Z jewel_ joined #lisp 2014-06-29T13:33:29Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-06-29T13:39:01Z nanashi`` joined #lisp 2014-06-29T13:42:48Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-29T13:43:58Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-29T13:45:13Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-06-29T13:45:59Z Shinmera: Does anyone know why cl-zip throws me a "The value -1 is not of type SB-INT:INDEX." error when trying to UNZIP a zip I created with its own ZIP function? 2014-06-29T13:46:10Z Shinmera: It unzips other zips just fine though 2014-06-29T13:46:23Z Shinmera: and other applications don't seem to have a problem with a zip it produces 2014-06-29T13:46:26Z jewel_ quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2014-06-29T13:47:15Z jewel_ joined #lisp 2014-06-29T13:57:11Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-29T14:01:43Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-06-29T14:01:57Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-29T14:05:59Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-29T14:06:10Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-29T14:09:45Z Eyes quit (Quit: modprobe -r processor) 2014-06-29T14:11:37Z Eyes joined #lisp 2014-06-29T14:12:42Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-29T14:16:28Z jewel_ quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2014-06-29T14:18:09Z wbooze joined #lisp 2014-06-29T14:19:38Z jewel_ joined #lisp 2014-06-29T14:22:39Z radioninja joined #lisp 2014-06-29T14:23:53Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-29T14:26:29Z ejbs joined #lisp 2014-06-29T14:27:37Z nanashi`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-29T14:30:24Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-29T14:35:23Z jewel_ quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2014-06-29T14:35:51Z jewel_ joined #lisp 2014-06-29T14:36:14Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-06-29T14:36:59Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-29T14:44:29Z wbooze quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-29T14:45:59Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-29T14:48:08Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-29T14:48:24Z zickzackv joined #lisp 2014-06-29T14:48:43Z YDJX left #lisp 2014-06-29T14:56:28Z shlomo joined #lisp 2014-06-29T14:57:18Z shlomo: How do I check if a value is a keyword symbol? 2014-06-29T14:57:25Z stassats: clhs keywordp 2014-06-29T14:57:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_kwdp.htm 2014-06-29T14:57:40Z shlomo: thanks 2014-06-29T14:57:41Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-29T14:59:19Z KCL_ joined #lisp 2014-06-29T14:59:53Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-06-29T15:02:16Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-29T15:04:38Z foreignFunction quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-29T15:06:20Z madrik joined #lisp 2014-06-29T15:14:38Z nydel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-29T15:14:53Z nydel joined #lisp 2014-06-29T15:16:24Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-29T15:19:49Z Guest73370 is now known as benny 2014-06-29T15:20:49Z maxpeck quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-29T15:20:58Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-29T15:23:50Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2014-06-29T15:32:31Z qiemem quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-06-29T15:34:36Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-29T15:36:47Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-06-29T15:38:46Z shlomo quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-29T15:40:11Z zolk3ri joined #lisp 2014-06-29T15:45:00Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-06-29T15:45:29Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-29T15:47:43Z francogrex joined #lisp 2014-06-29T15:48:03Z francogrex: hi, can anyone help me with this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143037 it's about sbcl and memory limits 2014-06-29T15:49:56Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-29T15:50:33Z madrik quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-29T15:53:19Z bugrum joined #lisp 2014-06-29T15:54:26Z innertracks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-29T15:55:48Z stassats: not enough contiguous heap at the requested location 2014-06-29T15:56:56Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-29T15:57:10Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-29T15:58:33Z malpas__ joined #lisp 2014-06-29T16:03:06Z francogrex: it's trying to install arm sbcl on an arm environement (chrooted on x86 though): Debian 3.2.57-3+deb7u1 armv7l GNU/Linux 2014-06-29T16:03:30Z francogrex: maybe it's the "emulator" problem. I will try directly on the arm phone 2014-06-29T16:04:24Z malpas__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-29T16:05:03Z kushal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-29T16:05:35Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-06-29T16:07:14Z ener2 quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 28.0/20140331235340]) 2014-06-29T16:09:44Z Guest30035 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-29T16:11:14Z Guest30035 joined #lisp 2014-06-29T16:11:44Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-29T16:14:52Z hitecnologys: francogrex: which emulator are you using? 2014-06-29T16:15:07Z malpas__ joined #lisp 2014-06-29T16:19:33Z moore33 joined #lisp 2014-06-29T16:19:35Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-29T16:20:09Z arenz joined #lisp 2014-06-29T16:22:33Z amaron joined #lisp 2014-06-29T16:22:42Z beach` is now known as beach 2014-06-29T16:23:55Z jxv joined #lisp 2014-06-29T16:28:57Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2014-06-29T16:30:33Z dcy joined #lisp 2014-06-29T16:31:19Z dcy: ahem . Not sure what to say. First time on an IRC channel 2014-06-29T16:31:49Z beach: dcy: Try something like "Good ". 2014-06-29T16:32:01Z beach: dcy: Welcome, anyway. 2014-06-29T16:32:38Z dcy: Good 2014-06-29T16:32:46Z beach: Right. 2014-06-29T16:33:11Z beach: So what brings you to #lisp? 2014-06-29T16:33:18Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-29T16:33:55Z c74d3a4 is now known as c74d 2014-06-29T16:34:01Z dcy: An interesting comment I read a while back. 2014-06-29T16:34:55Z beach: The suspense is killing me. 2014-06-29T16:35:33Z dcy: "And to people who think they have nothing left to learn go learn lisp, I hear that's what all the genius programmer do" 2014-06-29T16:35:43Z dcy: "And to people who think they have nothing left to learn go learn lisp, I hear that's what all the genius programmer do" 2014-06-29T16:35:58Z joneshf quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-29T16:36:06Z beach: Sounds good. Where did you find it? 2014-06-29T16:36:27Z joneshf-laptop_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-29T16:36:52Z dcy: Not sure. Also lisp is a lot like linear algebra which is a personal favourite of mine. 2014-06-29T16:37:05Z dcy: So where do I begin ? 2014-06-29T16:37:23Z beach: minion: Please tell dcy about PCL. 2014-06-29T16:37:23Z minion: dcy: have a look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2014-06-29T16:37:42Z beach: dcy: I am assuming you have already programmed in some other language, yes? 2014-06-29T16:38:04Z dcy: python and C mostly. 2014-06-29T16:38:16Z beach: PCL should be fine then. 2014-06-29T16:40:50Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-29T16:41:03Z gendl joined #lisp 2014-06-29T16:41:22Z gendl quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-29T16:41:23Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-06-29T16:41:55Z gendl joined #lisp 2014-06-29T16:43:12Z wilfredh quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-06-29T16:43:35Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-29T16:43:52Z KCL_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-29T16:45:25Z dcy quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-29T16:46:23Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-06-29T16:47:03Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2014-06-29T16:47:43Z stassats: quotes like this do more harm than good 2014-06-29T16:48:07Z beach: stassats: Which one? 2014-06-29T16:48:18Z stassats: the one about geniuses 2014-06-29T16:48:18Z beach: The one about nothing left to learn? 2014-06-29T16:48:35Z beach: Yeah, I agree. 2014-06-29T16:49:52Z Vivitron` joined #lisp 2014-06-29T16:51:49Z Vivitron quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-29T16:53:15Z beach: Well, I guess dcy got the answer he/she was looking for. 2014-06-29T16:56:19Z hitecnologys: It doesn't change the fact that people expect too much from Lisps. 2014-06-29T16:57:07Z beach: They do? 2014-06-29T16:58:03Z hitecnologys: I hear such quotes quite often so I guess some people do. 2014-06-29T16:59:34Z beach: There is also the exact opposite kind of person, they can't possibly understand why anyone uses Lisp, given that can do everything Lisp can do and more. 2014-06-29T17:00:19Z stassats: assembly can do everything 2014-06-29T17:00:22Z wbooze joined #lisp 2014-06-29T17:00:22Z francogrex: hitecnologys: not really an emulator. It's more chrooting into a linux arm image (I made myself); for example: http://community.arm.com/groups/embedded/blog/2013/11/21/cross-compilation-for-arm 2014-06-29T17:00:37Z decent: assembly should make me dinner 2014-06-29T17:01:14Z joneshf joined #lisp 2014-06-29T17:01:17Z malpas__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-29T17:02:51Z tajjada joined #lisp 2014-06-29T17:03:41Z ASau` joined #lisp 2014-06-29T17:04:02Z therik joined #lisp 2014-06-29T17:07:04Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-29T17:07:48Z hitecnologys: francogrex: oh my. I've never done anything like that (chrooting into ARM environment) but have you tried simply running image in isolated virtual environment using QEMU or something similar instead of mounting it and chrooting into it? 2014-06-29T17:07:50Z Guest30035 quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-29T17:08:07Z vaporatorius is now known as Vaporatorius 2014-06-29T17:08:09Z francogrex: no not yet 2014-06-29T17:08:12Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2014-06-29T17:11:21Z francogrex: I am trying ccl (armcl); on this arm image that I build only ccl Version 1.6-r14468M runs ok. v1.7, 1.8 and 1.9 dive errors as CPU features noy supported... 2014-06-29T17:11:54Z francogrex: it's probably bc my arm image is armv7l and not v6 2014-06-29T17:12:58Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-29T17:16:11Z forgottenone joined #lisp 2014-06-29T17:17:16Z leb joined #lisp 2014-06-29T17:20:17Z nanashi`` joined #lisp 2014-06-29T17:20:19Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-06-29T17:21:18Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2014-06-29T17:26:46Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-06-29T17:29:37Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-29T17:30:30Z jackdaniel: it may be a dumb question, but how to refer to, let' say, hunchentoot:start function from inside function named start? i have problems with using (hunchentoot:start *my-acceptor*) 2014-06-29T17:32:52Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-29T17:33:42Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-29T17:35:00Z jackdaniel: ok, it was dumb question, sorry. I have declared "use" of hunchentoot in my package, overwritten it by defining function start and tried to use it -_-' 2014-06-29T17:35:52Z mrSpec quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-29T17:38:00Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-29T17:39:51Z zwer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-29T17:40:30Z KCL_ joined #lisp 2014-06-29T17:40:33Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-29T17:41:41Z gendl quit (Quit: gendl) 2014-06-29T17:41:47Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-29T17:43:40Z fridim_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-29T17:48:18Z forgottenone quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-29T17:48:22Z matko joined #lisp 2014-06-29T17:49:21Z varjag_ joined #lisp 2014-06-29T17:51:22Z jxv quit (Quit: QUIT) 2014-06-29T17:51:40Z francogrex quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-29T17:52:01Z therik quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-29T17:53:51Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 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what about typical costs of signaling a condition with a default restart when compared to an hard coded code path? 2014-06-29T20:58:56Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2014-06-29T20:59:11Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-29T20:59:33Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-29T21:00:27Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-29T21:01:34Z nipra quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-29T21:06:05Z BitPuffin quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 2014-06-29T21:07:25Z matko joined #lisp 2014-06-29T21:07:36Z gendl quit (Quit: gendl) 2014-06-29T21:09:01Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2014-06-29T21:10:14Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-29T21:12:08Z aretecode joined #lisp 2014-06-29T21:15:00Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-29T21:17:12Z davazp joined #lisp 2014-06-29T21:19:55Z aretecode quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-29T21:21:53Z tajjada_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-29T21:23:20Z tajjada joined #lisp 2014-06-29T21:25:35Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2014-06-29T21:27:47Z jxv joined 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#lisp 2014-06-30T01:53:35Z Guest30035 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-30T01:55:28Z jleija joined #lisp 2014-06-30T01:57:31Z joe-w-bimedina: the value of s is "foo is foo" and when I run: (concatenate 'string "espeak " (write-to-string s)) the output is" "espeak \"foo is foo\"" .... I would like the output to be exactly: "espeak 'foo is foo'" how do i make this happen 2014-06-30T01:58:26Z joe-w-bimedina: btw "s" was set with this (defparameter s "foo is foo") 2014-06-30T01:58:50Z Bike: (concatenate 'string "espeak '" (write-to-string s :escape nil) "'") 2014-06-30T01:59:08Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks alot man 2014-06-30T01:59:30Z Bike: or just (format nil "espeak '~a'" s), really. 2014-06-30T02:00:35Z joe-w-bimedina: cool, that works for my purposes too 2014-06-30T02:02:26Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-30T02:03:44Z wchun quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-30T02:04:40Z neoesque joined #lisp 2014-06-30T02:06:30Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-06-30T02:08:10Z brucem quit (Changing host) 2014-06-30T02:08:10Z brucem joined #lisp 2014-06-30T02:16:51Z wchun joined #lisp 2014-06-30T02:18:08Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-30T02:25:45Z leo2007 joined #lisp 2014-06-30T02:30:35Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-06-30T02:30:57Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-30T02:32:23Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-30T02:33:51Z frkout_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T02:34:55Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T02:36:27Z kanru quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T02:37:03Z kanru joined #lisp 2014-06-30T02:39:23Z raschwell quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-06-30T02:39:27Z chadhs joined #lisp 2014-06-30T02:39:29Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-30T02:39:38Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T02:40:45Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-30T02:42:43Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T02:44:01Z PuercoPop: Any idea why does any combination of (apropos "op" :asdf) fails match anything. 2014-06-30T02:44:46Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-30T02:45:55Z spacebat quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T02:47:07Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T02:48:37Z spacebat joined #lisp 2014-06-30T02:48:47Z Xach: PuercoPop: i'd guess because the symbols have different home packages like asdf/operations, asdf/build, asdf/system, asdf/monkey, asdf/rototiller, etc 2014-06-30T02:49:59Z sykopomp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T02:50:53Z sykopomp joined #lisp 2014-06-30T02:51:33Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-30T02:56:25Z PuercoPop: makes sense, thanks 2014-06-30T02:57:01Z MjrTom quit (Quit: Planet Earth is blue, and there's nothing I can do) 2014-06-30T02:58:10Z echo-area joined #lisp 2014-06-30T02:59:16Z KCL_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T03:02:12Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-30T03:06:23Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-30T03:11:13Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-30T03:11:15Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2014-06-30T03:11:39Z Khisanth is now known as Guest60630 2014-06-30T03:18:48Z jaimef quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-30T03:20:21Z JuanDaugherty quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-30T03:20:25Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-06-30T03:22:41Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-30T03:26:16Z Guest60630 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-30T03:26:49Z Jubb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-30T03:26:52Z khisanth_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T03:33:28Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T03:36:23Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-30T03:37:31Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T03:37:34Z jaimef joined #lisp 2014-06-30T03:37:41Z davazp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T03:42:57Z jxv joined #lisp 2014-06-30T03:47:38Z Jubb joined #lisp 2014-06-30T03:48:18Z Jubb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T03:48:18Z joe-w-bimedina: |3b|: are you on tonight 2014-06-30T03:48:21Z billitch quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T03:48:55Z Jubb joined #lisp 2014-06-30T03:54:14Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-30T03:56:57Z leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-30T04:00:25Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T04:01:00Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-06-30T04:12:06Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-06-30T04:12:19Z MjrTom quit (Quit: Planet Earth is blue, and there's nothing I can do) 2014-06-30T04:12:27Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-30T04:13:01Z MjrTom joined #lisp 2014-06-30T04:14:58Z Longlius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T04:15:48Z joe-w-bimedina quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T04:16:45Z Longlius joined #lisp 2014-06-30T04:23:14Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T04:24:56Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-30T04:26:58Z harish_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-30T04:27:39Z harish joined #lisp 2014-06-30T04:27:45Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-30T04:28:35Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-30T04:32:06Z drmeist__: A bit off topic: Is anyone good at debugging X86_64 machine language with GDB on linux? I'm porting my Common Lisp to Linux - it compiles, links and runs but SIGSEGV faults inexplicably on the instruction "mov %rax,(%rcx)" the memory at %rcx is writable. https://gist.github.com/drmeister/fbb1c4ec39163c2964ad 2014-06-30T04:32:23Z drmeist__ is now known as drmeister_ 2014-06-30T04:34:11Z drmeister_: Here's the instructions around the crash: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/9620b0ef9b84e19bf239 2014-06-30T04:34:33Z drmeister_: And the registers: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/60f73bc83b055d7b7040 2014-06-30T04:35:19Z joe-w-bimedina joined #lisp 2014-06-30T04:35:55Z joe-w-bimedina quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2014-06-30T04:38:45Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2014-06-30T04:40:19Z chadhs quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-30T04:41:21Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-06-30T04:46:42Z tesuji joined #lisp 2014-06-30T04:47:05Z loke: Ported to Linux, from what? 2014-06-30T04:48:22Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T04:49:18Z optikalmouse quit (Quit: 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#lisp 2014-06-30T08:06:18Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T08:07:00Z leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-30T08:07:32Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-06-30T08:09:06Z varjag_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T08:09:39Z quazimodo quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-06-30T08:10:14Z Neet joined #lisp 2014-06-30T08:10:35Z nha_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-30T08:11:11Z Beetny joined #lisp 2014-06-30T08:15:40Z MjrTom quit (Quit: Planet Earth is blue, and there's nothing I can do) 2014-06-30T08:16:09Z joneshf quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-30T08:19:09Z forgottenone joined #lisp 2014-06-30T08:20:10Z stardiviner quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-30T08:23:37Z ggole joined #lisp 2014-06-30T08:27:31Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-30T08:30:19Z amaron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T08:33:22Z vinodh42 joined #lisp 2014-06-30T08:36:19Z vinodh42: hi, just a quick question: if I build clisp --with-threads, will I be able to run the mp version of hunchentoot? 2014-06-30T08:36:43Z vinodh42: has anyone tried this? 2014-06-30T08:37:04Z H4ns: do you have a specific reason why you want to use clisp? 2014-06-30T08:37:23Z vinodh42: I ask because I run openbsd and I believe that sbcl does not really run the mp version on openbsd. 2014-06-30T08:37:34Z H4ns: ah, ok. 2014-06-30T08:37:43Z vinodh42: it's just that it's what i'm most familiar with. 2014-06-30T08:37:56Z vinodh42: but maybe i should just try it and see. 2014-06-30T08:39:17Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2014-06-30T08:39:35Z joneshf joined #lisp 2014-06-30T08:41:53Z stassats: openbsd and clisp is probably the worst combination for threads 2014-06-30T08:42:20Z H4ns: does openbsd blend well with any common lisp? 2014-06-30T08:43:26Z joga: amusing https://github.com/shinh/sedlisp 2014-06-30T08:43:40Z hitecnologys: H4ns: I don't think so. 2014-06-30T08:43:58Z stassats: H4ns: nobody uses openbsd, so, nobody tests anything 2014-06-30T08:45:39Z vinodh42: yeah, actually, i'm not sure why openbsd is so unpopular. i find that it is really quite a comfortable system to use. 2014-06-30T08:45:59Z hitecnologys: stassats: you're wrong. Raadt probably uses it. 2014-06-30T08:46:20Z madrik quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-30T08:46:35Z stassats: hitecnologys: i thought he was busy deriding opponents 2014-06-30T08:48:03Z hitecnologys: vinodh42: *BSD systems aren't popular because of the same reason *NIX systems aren't as popular as Windows systems: no software. Developers don't make software for unpopular OS so systems don't become popular because they lack software. Endless loop. 2014-06-30T08:48:33Z stassats: is that the same reason CL is unpopular? 2014-06-30T08:48:33Z hitecnologys: stassats: what did you say? Opponents? Bleh. 2014-06-30T08:49:13Z hitecnologys: Compared to mainstream languages, yes, I belive so. 2014-06-30T08:49:26Z ft joined #lisp 2014-06-30T08:49:27Z stassats: so, openbsd x cl is doubly unpopular 2014-06-30T08:49:39Z manfoo7 joined #lisp 2014-06-30T08:50:43Z hitecnologys: We need to port Wayland to BSD to make it triple. 2014-06-30T08:51:17Z khisanth__ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T08:51:54Z khisanth_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-30T08:53:19Z alpha-: some people still use bsd 2014-06-30T08:53:26Z alpha-: you should go with hurd for a safe bet 2014-06-30T08:54:18Z Zhivago: Some people still live in caves and eat cat food. It is not a convincing argument. :) 2014-06-30T08:54:20Z hitecnologys: HURD? It's still alive? 2014-06-30T08:54:32Z stassats: if you call that alive 2014-06-30T08:54:47Z Ralt: is there a way to make lisp work with this? http://pastie.margaine.com/35fa6cb1-ccb8-438a-ab89-8b4bc478d445 2014-06-30T08:55:09Z Ralt: (expt 6 0.5) != (* (expt 2 0.5) (expt 3 0.5)) 2014-06-30T08:55:10Z stassats: don't use fp 2014-06-30T08:55:39Z Zhivago: Try 1/2 instead of 0.5. 2014-06-30T08:55:45Z Ralt: oh 2014-06-30T08:56:10Z Ralt: nope. 2014-06-30T08:56:18Z stassats: is square root of 6 a rational number? 2014-06-30T08:56:24Z vinodh42 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-06-30T08:56:39Z Ralt: CL-USER> (sqrt 6) 2014-06-30T08:56:40Z Ralt: 2.4494898 2014-06-30T08:56:42Z stassats: square root of 2 certainly isn't 2014-06-30T08:57:00Z Zhivago: Why don't you compare their squares, instead? 2014-06-30T08:57:13Z Ralt: CL-USER> (= (sqrt 6) (* (sqrt 3) (sqrt 2))) 2014-06-30T08:57:13Z Ralt: NIL 2014-06-30T08:57:16Z Ralt: still nope 2014-06-30T08:57:25Z stassats: that's the same thing 2014-06-30T08:57:48Z Ralt: isn't it what Zhivago meant? 2014-06-30T08:58:11Z ck_: what he meant is (= 6 (* 2 3)) ;) 2014-06-30T08:58:25Z hitecnologys: Ralt: comparting floating point numbers is a tricky thing. 2014-06-30T08:58:27Z Ralt: oh well 2014-06-30T08:58:32Z Ralt: that was a comparison to haskell 2014-06-30T08:58:42Z stassats: especially when they are not equal 2014-06-30T08:58:44Z Ralt: sqrt 2 * sqrt 3 == (sqrt 6 :: Construct) -- True 2014-06-30T08:59:16Z stassats: it uses doubles 2014-06-30T09:00:32Z Ralt: does it? 2014-06-30T09:00:34Z stassats: and sqrt 2 * sqrt 3 == sqrt 6 => False here 2014-06-30T09:00:50Z Ralt: because it uses Data.Real.Constructible 2014-06-30T09:00:57Z Ralt: (the :: Construct) 2014-06-30T09:02:01Z stassats: and how are you expecting to compare this? 2014-06-30T09:02:32Z stassats: sqrt 2 * sqrt 3 == sqrt 6 is the equivalent of (= (sqrt 6d0) (* (sqrt 3d0) (sqrt 2d0))) 2014-06-30T09:03:52Z Ralt: I'm not sure I understand 2014-06-30T09:03:58Z Ralt: CL-USER> (= (sqrt 6d0) (* (sqrt 3d0) (sqrt 2d0))) 2014-06-30T09:03:58Z Ralt: NIL 2014-06-30T09:04:08Z stassats: exactly 2014-06-30T09:04:13Z hitecnologys: Floating. Point. 2014-06-30T09:04:22Z stassats: the same as sqrt 2 * sqrt 3 == sqrt 6 2014-06-30T09:04:32Z Zhivago: What you want is sunk point. 2014-06-30T09:04:38Z Ralt: how can haskell's version return true then? 2014-06-30T09:04:56Z hitecnologys: Because it's not the same thing. 2014-06-30T09:05:00Z Zhivago: I'd have a look at the haskell version's implementation. 2014-06-30T09:05:14Z stassats: Ralt: it does not 2014-06-30T09:05:25Z stassats: Prelude> sqrt 2 * sqrt 3 == sqrt 6 => False 2014-06-30T09:05:35Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-30T09:06:54Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-30T09:10:52Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-30T09:15:57Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-30T09:20:23Z segv- joined #lisp 2014-06-30T09:23:44Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-30T09:25:35Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T09:30:20Z drmeiste_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-30T09:31:06Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-30T09:32:02Z echo-area quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T09:34:07Z karupa is now known as zz_karupa 2014-06-30T09:34:23Z hitecnologys: What is the right way to test string on being ""? (string= "" string)? (emptyp string)? 2014-06-30T09:34:52Z stassats: (equal string "") 2014-06-30T09:35:53Z hitecnologys: Why not STRING=? Is EQUAL faster? 2014-06-30T09:37:31Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-30T09:38:00Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-06-30T09:39:59Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-30T09:41:20Z stassats: (string= "" '||) => T 2014-06-30T09:42:17Z hitecnologys: Huh. OK then, thanks. 2014-06-30T09:43:58Z stassats: the fastest should be (and (typep x 'string) (zerop (length string))) 2014-06-30T09:43:58Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T09:44:15Z nug700_ quit (Quit: bye) 2014-06-30T09:44:47Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T09:47:19Z stassats: and i'm thinking about transforming EQUAL "" on sbcl to that 2014-06-30T09:47:57Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T09:48:04Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-06-30T09:50:31Z hitecnologys: Seems to be the fastest, yes. Sounds like a good idea. 2014-06-30T09:52:24Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-30T09:57:09Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-30T09:57:09Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-06-30T09:57:09Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-30T09:57:15Z Alfr joined #lisp 2014-06-30T09:57:50Z stassats: (string= (the string x) "") could get the same optimization, but i'm too lazy to sift through the string= transforms 2014-06-30T09:58:24Z foreignFunction joined #lisp 2014-06-30T09:58:36Z hitecnologys: There are also EQUALP, STRING-EQUAL etc. 2014-06-30T09:58:43Z nydel quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-30T09:58:50Z hitecnologys: They could probably get it too. 2014-06-30T09:58:54Z stassats: equalp will get optimized 2014-06-30T09:59:01Z didi joined #lisp 2014-06-30T09:59:59Z stassats: and for (string= (the string x) ""), it's just (zerop (length x)) 2014-06-30T10:01:44Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-06-30T10:02:18Z stassats: and (string= (the string x) "" :end1 10) could be derived to always produce NIL 2014-06-30T10:02:18Z stassats: 2014-06-30T10:04:27Z alexander-01 joined #lisp 2014-06-30T10:07:56Z stassats: and equal/equalp are in 2014-06-30T10:21:34Z raschwell joined #lisp 2014-06-30T10:22:41Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-30T10:24:09Z H4ns quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-30T10:25:15Z ferada quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-30T10:25:15Z freiksenet quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-30T10:25:22Z ferada joined #lisp 2014-06-30T10:25:29Z freiksenet joined #lisp 2014-06-30T10:26:49Z harish_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T10:29:45Z karswell` joined #lisp 2014-06-30T10:30:26Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-30T10:31:52Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-30T10:32:14Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T10:33:07Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T10:34:15Z Krystof: the :end1 10 case should signal an error if x is shorter than 10 characters 2014-06-30T10:34:30Z stassats: can't know at ct 2014-06-30T10:34:51Z Krystof: oh, so if it returns it must be returning NIL. OK 2014-06-30T10:35:09Z H4ns joined #lisp 2014-06-30T10:35:21Z stassats: i just want a note of some sort 2014-06-30T10:37:21Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-30T10:38:31Z stassats: though the deletion note will only appear if there is a branch 2014-06-30T10:38:45Z stassats: maybe there should be "code-smells-funny-note" 2014-06-30T10:39:40Z Krystof: I think we call that "style-warning" 2014-06-30T10:39:51Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-06-30T10:39:59Z stassats: but is it style? 2014-06-30T10:40:16Z hitecnologys: I don't think it's style either. 2014-06-30T10:40:36Z stassats: a haphazard-code-writing-style 2014-06-30T10:41:01Z Krystof: "The type style-warning includes those conditions that represent situations involving code that is conforming code but that is nevertheless considered to be faulty or substandard." 2014-06-30T10:43:39Z hitecnologys: ":end1 10" doesn't seem to be faulty or substandard. 2014-06-30T10:44:04Z stassats: it's certainly not what was intended 2014-06-30T10:44:15Z Krystof: it is if string2 is a constant "" 2014-06-30T10:44:46Z hitecnologys: Fine, you won. 2014-06-30T10:47:40Z amaron joined #lisp 2014-06-30T10:53:11Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-30T10:53:30Z ehu_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T10:53:31Z alpert joined #lisp 2014-06-30T10:53:50Z momo-reina joined #lisp 2014-06-30T10:54:27Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-30T10:54:57Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-30T10:55:56Z alexander-01: hey guys Im trying to learn some lisp and linear algebra at the same time .. Im trying to install gsll using (ql:quickload "gsll") and Im getting an error http://pastebin.com/6HApqgqd .. any help appreciated 2014-06-30T10:56:22Z effy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T10:57:22Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-06-30T10:58:10Z stassats: you don't have the gsl-config program 2014-06-30T10:58:38Z alexander-01: stassats: how do I get it? 2014-06-30T10:58:40Z pranavrc_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-30T10:58:54Z stassats: no idea 2014-06-30T10:59:47Z funnel quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-30T11:00:29Z alexander-01: just tried (ql:system-apropos "gsl-config") and theres nothing to show for it 2014-06-30T11:00:36Z didi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T11:00:54Z stassats: it's a program, not a lisp system 2014-06-30T11:01:09Z stassats: it should come with gsll 2014-06-30T11:01:25Z funnel joined #lisp 2014-06-30T11:01:35Z Krystof: you might need to install the -dev package if you haven't already 2014-06-30T11:02:10Z stassats: and the failure mode is really stupid 2014-06-30T11:02:19Z alexander-01: I have installed gsl-bin 2014-06-30T11:04:55Z Cymew: alexander-01: What's your platform? 2014-06-30T11:05:40Z alexander-01: Cymew: Im using debian testing 2014-06-30T11:06:01Z alexander-01: installing the libgsl10-dev and dbg now 2014-06-30T11:06:13Z Cymew: alexander-01: On RHEL and derivates there's a gsl-devel package providing gsl-config 2014-06-30T11:07:15Z Cymew: alexander-01: ok, that might solve your issue. 2014-06-30T11:09:43Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-30T11:11:17Z alexander-01: it did thanks guys ..:) 2014-06-30T11:12:41Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T11:12:46Z alexander-01: ']\ 2014-06-30T11:13:32Z YDJX joined #lisp 2014-06-30T11:14:25Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T11:14:32Z amaron quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-30T11:14:57Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-30T11:15:46Z Cymew: Good luck with your linear algebra studies! 2014-06-30T11:15:57Z Cymew: ...the lisp part is easy :) 2014-06-30T11:19:14Z drmeiste_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-30T11:21:39Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-06-30T11:25:39Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-06-30T11:27:52Z ehu_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-30T11:28:11Z momo-reina quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T11:29:35Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-06-30T11:29:47Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-30T11:31:24Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-30T11:34:36Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-30T11:35:00Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-30T11:36:08Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T11:37:49Z FracV joined #lisp 2014-06-30T11:38:36Z zwer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T11:38:50Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-30T11:41:19Z jchochli_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-30T11:43:02Z alexander-01 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T11:44:49Z stassats: #-x800 is a good way to chase wild geese 2014-06-30T11:45:17Z sirdancealot joined #lisp 2014-06-30T11:45:37Z vinleod quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-06-30T11:46:00Z hitecnologys: stassats: huh, where is it from? 2014-06-30T11:46:11Z stassats: from the other buffer 2014-06-30T11:46:52Z stassats: (it should be #x-800) 2014-06-30T11:47:00Z hitecnologys: Yeah, I get that. 2014-06-30T11:47:21Z hitecnologys: Sure good way to spend time trying to figure out what went wrong. 2014-06-30T11:47:24Z stassats: and sbcl is happy with (logior 10 #-x800) 2014-06-30T11:47:35Z stassats: though anything would be with (logior 10 #-x800 20) 2014-06-30T11:48:32Z momo-reina joined #lisp 2014-06-30T11:50:42Z nydel joined #lisp 2014-06-30T11:52:52Z Sgeo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-30T11:53:02Z momo-reina quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T11:53:22Z billitch joined #lisp 2014-06-30T11:54:41Z madrik joined #lisp 2014-06-30T11:58:37Z chu joined #lisp 2014-06-30T11:58:45Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-06-30T12:00:29Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-06-30T12:00:47Z rszeno joined #lisp 2014-06-30T12:07:04Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-30T12:08:18Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T12:08:56Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-30T12:10:05Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-30T12:12:23Z didi joined #lisp 2014-06-30T12:15:23Z didi: In a x86_64 machine, can I declare the type of a variable to be a 64 bit integer and will the compiler get advantage of this? I'm using SBCL. 2014-06-30T12:16:03Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-30T12:16:11Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-30T12:16:28Z stassats: declare it to be the type you need 2014-06-30T12:17:15Z Zhivago: Generally 64 bit integers aren't that useful -- consider the type of adding two such together. 2014-06-30T12:17:51Z didi: I will be doing bitwise operations on it. It's an abstraction of my datatype. 2014-06-30T12:18:00Z Zhivago: Fair enough. 2014-06-30T12:18:33Z didi: I'm using a vector right now, but I'm trying to improve the performance of it. 2014-06-30T12:19:14Z didi: I guess I'll have to try it and see. 2014-06-30T12:19:55Z kcj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T12:19:56Z Zhivago: Good luck. Remember that your 64 bit integers might actually only be 60 or 61 bit integers. 2014-06-30T12:20:08Z didi: Zhivago: Yes. 62 bits here. 2014-06-30T12:20:23Z didi: That's why I'm not sure. 2014-06-30T12:20:25Z stassats: then declare them as such 2014-06-30T12:20:38Z jchochli quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T12:20:47Z didi: stassats: My idea require 64 bits tho. 2014-06-30T12:20:58Z stassats: then declare them as such 2014-06-30T12:21:20Z didi: stassats: I will. What would be the type declaration? 2014-06-30T12:21:21Z dim: or use a bitvector? 2014-06-30T12:21:31Z didi: dim: Would it be better? 2014-06-30T12:21:38Z stassats: didi: exactly as much as you need, no less and no more 2014-06-30T12:21:51Z stassats: didi: no 2014-06-30T12:22:02Z didi: Than I will go for the integer. 2014-06-30T12:22:10Z didi: s/Than/Then 2014-06-30T12:22:16Z stassats: unless it ventures into the bignum territory 2014-06-30T12:22:17Z dim: for most things it wouldn't, except if you're actually manipulating a bit vector 2014-06-30T12:22:24Z dim: might make it easier to write the code 2014-06-30T12:22:38Z stassats: bit-vectors can be modified in-place, while bignums can't 2014-06-30T12:22:43Z didi: dim: Thank you. In this case, I really want the performance. 2014-06-30T12:23:01Z didi: I will actually make a hashtable out of it. 2014-06-30T12:23:09Z Amaan joined #lisp 2014-06-30T12:23:16Z didi: T -> T 2014-06-30T12:23:28Z stassats: out of what? 2014-06-30T12:23:56Z Zhivago: Profile, profile, profile, disassemble, profile. :) 2014-06-30T12:24:04Z didi: My idea is, to speed it up further, make a hashtable of 64 bit integers to 64 bit integers. 2014-06-30T12:24:13Z didi: Zhivago: Right, right. 2014-06-30T12:24:30Z didi: Like I said, I have an working implementation already with vectors. 2014-06-30T12:24:41Z stassats: putting 64-bit integers into T typed places isn't going to be fast 2014-06-30T12:24:53Z Zhivago: Hmm, I don't see a hashtable helping much -- what's the real problem? 2014-06-30T12:25:43Z hitecnologys: Xach: is there plans on support for {live,virtual} packages in QL? 2014-06-30T12:26:02Z didi: Zhivago: The problem is a actually a toy. Do you know the 2048 game? I want make the transformation of the board faster. 2014-06-30T12:26:08Z hitecnologys: s/is there/are there/ 2014-06-30T12:27:04Z tesuji quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-30T12:28:45Z stassats: didi: and what do hashtables have to do with that? 2014-06-30T12:28:47Z didi: stassats: T was a place holder for type. I wanted to say TypeA to TypeA. I should have used another letter. 2014-06-30T12:29:03Z didi: stassats: I don't want to compute the value on the fly. 2014-06-30T12:29:23Z stassats: hashtables work only with T 2014-06-30T12:29:54Z didi: stassats: Hum. That might be a problem then, given your input about it. 2014-06-30T12:30:00Z quasus joined #lisp 2014-06-30T12:30:04Z didi: Maybe an array? 2014-06-30T12:30:30Z stassats: if array can substitute a hashtable, then the choice of the hashtable was wrong 2014-06-30T12:30:36Z didi: Cool. 2014-06-30T12:30:47Z didi: I guess an array it is. 2014-06-30T12:31:10Z stassats: that's regardless of specialization, but arrays can specialize to ub64 2014-06-30T12:31:24Z didi: Nice. I will do that. 2014-06-30T12:33:29Z Zhivago: Ok, so you have a configuration space of (4 * 4)**10 == 1099511627776. 2014-06-30T12:33:40Z Zhivago: But a large number of configurations are unreachable. 2014-06-30T12:33:48Z didi: Not exactly. 2014-06-30T12:34:10Z Zhivago: And you have four way symmetry. 2014-06-30T12:34:15Z didi: Right. 2014-06-30T12:34:42Z Zhivago: But wouldn't an algorithmic solution be easier? 2014-06-30T12:34:51Z didi: I already have that. 2014-06-30T12:34:59Z Zhivago: Each board's ideal move-space is pretty small, after all. 2014-06-30T12:35:31Z didi: I am open for suggestion, actually. The integer is one idea. 2014-06-30T12:35:42Z didi: Not mine, either. 2014-06-30T12:37:26Z test1600 joined #lisp 2014-06-30T12:38:03Z alpert quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-30T12:40:05Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-30T12:42:52Z phadthai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T12:48:15Z nipra quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-30T12:48:15Z daem0n joined #lisp 2014-06-30T12:48:58Z daem0n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-30T12:50:12Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-30T12:50:44Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-06-30T12:50:48Z l3thal`` is now known as l3thal 2014-06-30T12:50:49Z l3thal quit (Changing host) 2014-06-30T12:50:49Z l3thal joined #lisp 2014-06-30T12:52:40Z xyjprc quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-30T12:52:46Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-06-30T12:54:31Z Xach: hitecnologys: what does that mean? 2014-06-30T12:59:09Z jchochli joined #lisp 2014-06-30T12:59:18Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T12:59:31Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T13:00:01Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-06-30T13:01:13Z Harag quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-30T13:02:55Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-06-30T13:03:11Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T13:07:01Z hitecnologys: Xach: I once suggested adding support for packages that represent certain functionality (like ssh, http-client, regex) rather than real libraries. These are called "virtual packages" in Gentoo so I used that name. About live packages, I just though that it may be good idea to allow users switch from release-based mode to pull-directly-from-repository-mode. 2014-06-30T13:07:35Z drmeiste_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-30T13:08:36Z stassats: they don't export the same interface, now do they? 2014-06-30T13:09:07Z jchochli_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T13:09:19Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T13:09:39Z hitecnologys: That is another problem. 2014-06-30T13:09:42Z pranavrc quit 2014-06-30T13:10:04Z Xach: hitecnologys: I've been wondering about that for a while. Not sure what the solution might be. 2014-06-30T13:10:16Z keen_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-30T13:11:45Z hitecnologys: Xach: another level of abstraction maybe. Or it may also be possible to publish required exported API list for each virual package that developers are required to implement to be included. At first it won't work, but over time, I hope, people will eventually do something. 2014-06-30T13:11:57Z hitecnologys: s/virual/virtual/ 2014-06-30T13:12:52Z hitecnologys: Xach: on the other hand, live packages shouldn't be so hard to implement. 2014-06-30T13:14:14Z hitecnologys: Xach: I've tried doing it myself but QL code seemed to be quite complicated to me so I postponed this thing until this very moment. However, situation hasn't changed: I still don't think I'm capable of adding something like what I suggested to QL. 2014-06-30T13:15:16Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-06-30T13:16:31Z hitecnologys: Anyway, at least adding "category" parameter to packages and allowing to search through it would be very nice. 2014-06-30T13:17:52Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T13:18:18Z quasus quit (Quit: sets out for the university) 2014-06-30T13:19:43Z forgottenone quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-30T13:19:49Z didi: Zhivago: You can go even further. There is symmetry on rows and columns. 2014-06-30T13:19:55Z Xach: hitecnologys: I think the solution must exist independently of Quicklisp. 2014-06-30T13:20:31Z Xach: hitecnologys: for now, quickdocs.org is the way to search 2014-06-30T13:21:51Z hitecnologys: Xach: maybe. 2014-06-30T13:22:12Z test1600 joined #lisp 2014-06-30T13:22:53Z ahungry: quickdocs is cool, should add syntax highlighting ala github to the markdown docs 2014-06-30T13:25:03Z _death: github syntax highlighting sucks.. better use lisppaste's colorize or something :) 2014-06-30T13:26:10Z keen_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T13:26:59Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-06-30T13:27:07Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T13:27:33Z ahungry: hah, well, some color, I personally love emacs org-mode export to html since it keeps my own emacs color theme 2014-06-30T13:27:46Z ahungry: in the source snippets 2014-06-30T13:28:28Z juanlas joined #lisp 2014-06-30T13:30:45Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-06-30T13:31:47Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-30T13:31:47Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-06-30T13:32:30Z |3b|: hitecnologys: at one point i looked into building a 'live' dist directly from a github account... looked like it would be pretty easy except for needing to calculate a hash 2014-06-30T13:35:02Z Xach: everything is a generic function and dist objects are returned by a hookable function, so i think you could get around or do anything you like. 2014-06-30T13:35:16Z Xach: that's the theory, not tested in practice 2014-06-30T13:35:18Z |3b|: (calculating a hash wasn't difficult, just required downloading a copy of the repo to the 'dist' server rather than letting it only look at metadata) 2014-06-30T13:36:02Z Xach: e.g. you could make a github-dist object that returns github-release objects which have github-system objects, and fetching and verifying them is altered accordingly 2014-06-30T13:36:36Z fortitude joined #lisp 2014-06-30T13:36:48Z |3b| was just trying to make a web service, rather than add to quicklisp itself... i could see that requiring a bit more work :) 2014-06-30T13:38:56Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2014-06-30T13:39:07Z |3b|: not sure if a github account is the right granularity anyway though, aside from maybe one's own account 2014-06-30T13:39:36Z |3b|: and even then, probably would rather have upstream rather than some ancient fork that was used for 1 patch and never updated 2014-06-30T13:42:08Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-30T13:43:55Z madrik quit (Quit: busy) 2014-06-30T13:48:19Z brown joined #lisp 2014-06-30T13:48:43Z brown is now known as Guest35671 2014-06-30T13:49:07Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T13:53:09Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-06-30T13:54:04Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2014-06-30T13:54:19Z DGASAU` joined #lisp 2014-06-30T13:55:32Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-30T13:56:03Z Oberon4278 joined #lisp 2014-06-30T13:56:32Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-30T13:58:34Z foreignFunction quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-30T13:59:14Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-30T13:59:34Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-06-30T14:00:38Z DGASAU` is now known as DGASAU 2014-06-30T14:01:11Z billstclair joined #lisp 2014-06-30T14:02:42Z xyjprc joined #lisp 2014-06-30T14:08:19Z DGASAU` joined #lisp 2014-06-30T14:10:41Z hitecnologys: Is there a way to make hunchentoot display stack traces at 500 pages? 2014-06-30T14:10:43Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T14:12:15Z stassats: *show-lisp-errors-p*? 2014-06-30T14:13:06Z hitecnologys: stassats: works. Thanks. 2014-06-30T14:15:05Z DGASAU` is now known as DGASAU 2014-06-30T14:17:29Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-30T14:18:21Z drewc quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-30T14:23:47Z sz0_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T14:24:43Z aretecode quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T14:24:51Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-30T14:25:56Z drmeiste_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T14:27:18Z aretecode joined #lisp 2014-06-30T14:29:58Z sz0_ quit 2014-06-30T14:36:55Z varjag_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-06-30T14:37:20Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T14:38:54Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-06-30T14:39:03Z keen_ left #lisp 2014-06-30T14:43:56Z tesuji joined #lisp 2014-06-30T14:46:22Z khisanth__ is now known as Khisanth 2014-06-30T14:48:47Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-30T14:49:13Z dkcl: How come few if any people are interested in [Portable] Hemlock? 2014-06-30T14:49:27Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-30T14:49:53Z stassats: because it's no good? 2014-06-30T14:50:33Z dkcl: Oh, I haven't dared try it yet, myself 2014-06-30T14:50:39Z dkcl: I was about to 2014-06-30T14:52:07Z dkcl: stassats: Is Climacs also no good? 2014-06-30T14:52:54Z oleo: lol 2014-06-30T14:54:02Z stassats: dkcl: yep 2014-06-30T14:54:37Z dkcl: Haha, oh well 2014-06-30T14:55:31Z lifenoodles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-30T14:55:31Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T14:55:58Z dim: Xach: the quicklisp package md5 has the version string "2.0.1" but its QL release version is 20130312... anything we could do about that (it's not unique) 2014-06-30T14:56:01Z Soft joined #lisp 2014-06-30T14:56:02Z lifenoodles joined #lisp 2014-06-30T14:56:07Z hitecnologys: restas-daemon.lisp seems to be broken. Am I right? 2014-06-30T14:56:23Z dkcl: stassats: It seems we agree, after all 2014-06-30T14:57:23Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-30T14:57:41Z Xach: dim: Quicklisp does not have a concept of "release versions" 2014-06-30T14:58:08Z dim: well ISTR you're using the tarball name to derive the version string from in cases 2014-06-30T14:58:23Z dim: what's preventing you from using the :version in the main asd system? 2014-06-30T14:58:41Z Xach: dim: For what? 2014-06-30T14:58:52Z Xach: The directory name? 2014-06-30T14:58:56Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-30T14:59:21Z dim: well, for my automated QL -> debian project, it would be nice if the QL version was usable as a debian package version 2014-06-30T14:59:33Z Xach: The md5 thing in quicklisp is probably not md5 2.0.1, but a snapshot of git development at or after version 2.0.1 was committed 2014-06-30T14:59:37Z dim: I guess I need to rework the way I parse the QL version string then 2014-06-30T15:00:03Z dim: maybe it falls down on ql-to-deb to parse the asdf :version string, rather than on Quicklisp itself 2014-06-30T15:00:13Z Longlius quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-30T15:00:20Z Xach: dim: Except that it is probably (but not necessarily) that version 2014-06-30T15:00:42Z Xach: err, probably not 2014-06-30T15:00:43Z przl joined #lisp 2014-06-30T15:01:07Z Xach: Here's what happens in some (many?) cases: author makes version 1.2.3 release, so system file in git says :version "1.2.3" 2014-06-30T15:01:21Z xificurC quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-30T15:01:39Z Xach: author keeps developing in git, but rarely makes regular releases. quicklisp pulls straight from git to get the most useful version. :version still says "1.2.3" but it diverges from the "released" version. 2014-06-30T15:02:18Z Xach: quicklisp's directory name says, crudely, "i got this from git on this date" 2014-06-30T15:02:22Z dim: mm, yeah, I can see that it'd be more problematic 2014-06-30T15:02:40Z dim: you still fetch released version tarballs when available, right? 2014-06-30T15:02:41Z Xach: I'd like to give finer-grained provenance info, so you could find out "got from this git url and packged up this git commit id" 2014-06-30T15:02:43Z KCL_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-30T15:02:47Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-30T15:02:55Z Xach: dim: usually 2014-06-30T15:03:16Z Xach: I like released tarballs, but if i only used projects that made releases, quicklisp would be a lot smaller. 2014-06-30T15:04:20Z dim: yeah 2014-06-30T15:04:35Z dim: well I can live with dates as release numbers, but I do prefer having proper version strings 2014-06-30T15:04:57Z dim: now, if md5-20130312-git in QL actually isn't md5 version 2.0.1, then I do prefer having the date here 2014-06-30T15:05:28Z drmeiste_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-30T15:05:39Z dim left #lisp 2014-06-30T15:05:49Z Xach: I don't know if that's useful, either. Is md5 "3.0" better or worse than "20130312"? 2014-06-30T15:05:53Z dim joined #lisp 2014-06-30T15:06:02Z dim: all in all the current system works fine 2014-06-30T15:09:00Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-06-30T15:09:05Z harish_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-30T15:09:22Z gingerale joined #lisp 2014-06-30T15:10:45Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-30T15:11:46Z harish_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T15:14:36Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T15:18:55Z Longlius joined #lisp 2014-06-30T15:20:26Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-06-30T15:20:41Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-30T15:22:28Z H4ns: is there a way to make buildapp never enter the debugger? i see it enter the debugger, but not accept any input from stdin. i'd rather see it crash with a backtrace. 2014-06-30T15:23:30Z stassats: --disable-debugger in sbcl 2014-06-30T15:24:12Z Xach: H4ns: hmm 2014-06-30T15:24:39Z Xach: H4ns: I thought it invoked the sub-sbcl with --disable-debugger already. maybe I screwed that up. is there an easy way to reproduce? 2014-06-30T15:24:49Z stassats: --lose-on-corruption --disable-ldb are also useful 2014-06-30T15:25:47Z mordocai joined #lisp 2014-06-30T15:26:01Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-30T15:26:08Z Xach: Hmm, I guess the entry point of buildapp itself does nothing to disable the debugger. 2014-06-30T15:26:11Z Xach wonders what's up 2014-06-30T15:26:43Z H4ns: i don't know, i'll need to investigate more. 2014-06-30T15:26:52Z Xach: Ok. I am eager to help. 2014-06-30T15:27:11Z H4ns: the behavior bothered me for years, but i have never really looked at it. i'll do it now. 2014-06-30T15:28:54Z nipra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-30T15:29:58Z H4ns: it is very easy to reproduce: echo "(" > foo.lisp; buildapp --output foo --load foo.lisp 2014-06-30T15:30:08Z Xach: H4ns: ok, thanks. i'll check it out. 2014-06-30T15:30:11Z H4ns: i see a debugger, but i cannot interact with it. 2014-06-30T15:30:14Z H4ns: thanks! 2014-06-30T15:30:21Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T15:31:34Z loke_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T15:31:44Z hitecnologys: Which libcap is required by SBCL on Debian? I've got libcap2 installed but it doesn't seem to work. 2014-06-30T15:31:58Z nanashi`` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T15:32:04Z hitecnologys: (SBCL 1.2.0) 2014-06-30T15:32:04Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-30T15:32:55Z genkinodenki joined #lisp 2014-06-30T15:33:03Z Xach: H4ns: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143044 :( 2014-06-30T15:33:42Z Xach: What version of buildapp? Are you using sbcl? 2014-06-30T15:33:56Z leb joined #lisp 2014-06-30T15:34:46Z H4ns: i am using SBCL 1.1.14.49-12adfac, buildapp version i don't know. how would i determine that? 2014-06-30T15:34:58Z H4ns: you don't see a debugger? 2014-06-30T15:35:40Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T15:35:55Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-30T15:36:05Z Xach: H4ns: no debugger. i don't think there is a way to tell the version just from the binary. i am using buildapp 1.5 2014-06-30T15:36:08Z Xach: i checked the .asd 2014-06-30T15:36:11Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T15:36:15Z Xach: Let me make sure I'm really using what I think I'm using 2014-06-30T15:36:36Z H4ns: i had this problem for at least 3 years, sorry for not reporting earlier 2014-06-30T15:36:46Z H4ns: let me update buildapp to the latest version 2014-06-30T15:37:07Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-06-30T15:37:47Z Xach: H4ns: ok, now i see a debugger problem. 2014-06-30T15:37:55Z Xach: with the latest from git 2014-06-30T15:38:06Z Xach: So it was working at some point in the past but stopped working lately 2014-06-30T15:39:00Z Xach: H4ns: thanks for the report, I'll investigate 2014-06-30T15:39:33Z H4ns: thanks. another question, is there a way to make it not print the build log to stdout? or should i just redirect it? 2014-06-30T15:40:07Z Xach: There isn't a built-in way to not print 2014-06-30T15:40:25Z H4ns: which is strange, because there is --logfile 2014-06-30T15:40:31Z H4ns: but i can redirect, no problem 2014-06-30T15:41:08Z Xach: hmm, the logfile bit was introduced by eschulte 2014-06-30T15:41:13Z Xach doesn't remember that part of the merge 2014-06-30T15:44:31Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-30T15:49:44Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-30T15:50:54Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T15:51:41Z genkinodenki left #lisp 2014-06-30T15:56:45Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-06-30T15:59:04Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-30T15:59:06Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-06-30T15:59:16Z xyjprc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T16:00:32Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-06-30T16:00:47Z wilfredh joined #lisp 2014-06-30T16:03:23Z Ralt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-30T16:03:50Z seangrov` joined #lisp 2014-06-30T16:05:01Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-06-30T16:07:19Z seangrove quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-30T16:09:28Z bjorkintosh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-30T16:10:47Z YDJX quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T16:11:06Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-30T16:16:47Z seangrov` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-30T16:19:29Z banjara joined #lisp 2014-06-30T16:25:49Z joe-w-bimedina joined #lisp 2014-06-30T16:28:21Z joe-w-bimedina: |3b|: If your on here I had to take a break for a week and I think I got the issue we were discussing figured out by calling the return of the vec-key-point-to-c-arr as a defcstruct I made. Sorry I wasn't available the next day like I said 2014-06-30T16:29:03Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2014-06-30T16:29:26Z radioninja joined #lisp 2014-06-30T16:30:28Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2014-06-30T16:33:08Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-06-30T16:33:43Z |3b|: joe-w-bimedina: i looked at opencv API a bit, and looks like it would be annoying to wrap well in CL :/ 2014-06-30T16:33:54Z clog_ quit (Quit: ^C) 2014-06-30T16:34:09Z clog joined #lisp 2014-06-30T16:36:20Z Xach: it has been, for many 2014-06-30T16:37:14Z joe-w-bimedina: |3b|: been pretty straight forward so far due to the great system devised for the c wrappers, If the defcstruct idea is stable it could be smooth sailing from here. Your ideas made my new discovery possible so I thank you very much for the hours you gave to helping me the other day 2014-06-30T16:37:23Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T16:37:38Z |3b|: joe-w-bimedina: i mean wrap in a form that is easy to use, not just to be functional 2014-06-30T16:37:46Z |3b|: easy to use and not error-prone 2014-06-30T16:38:00Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-30T16:38:35Z |3b|: finalizers aren't a good solution to managing lifetime of external resources, but managing it by hand is annoying too 2014-06-30T16:38:51Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-06-30T16:40:03Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-30T16:40:26Z joe-w-bimedina: I have had no errors except for the ones I clued you in to, and I have written code in a myriad of ways with it....yeah a cffi developer gave me the finalizer idea, I thought I would include all 3 forms of MM in my library, they are a bit slower so I only use them sparingly. The freedom of having all 3 forms of MM is really great though 2014-06-30T16:40:56Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T16:41:30Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-30T16:41:32Z |3b|: finalizers aren't reliable for general resource management, so you might leak non-lisp resources 2014-06-30T16:41:33Z leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-30T16:41:50Z |3b|: also they may slow down garbage collection significantly on some implementations 2014-06-30T16:42:24Z |3b| isn't sure how many implementations that is still a problem on and how much though 2014-06-30T16:42:49Z |3b|: also, the way you were using it looked horribly error prone, lots of confusion over who was responsible for particular resources 2014-06-30T16:43:02Z |3b|: and either way, the lisp side api was ugly and verbose :/ 2014-06-30T16:43:44Z joe-w-bimedina: they are the slowest form of MM in my library and I have been real careful using them...had a couple weird effects...not sure what was verbose, can you provide example 2014-06-30T16:44:10Z |3b|: i mean things like explicitly allocating output storage instead of letting the API handle it 2014-06-30T16:44:51Z Okasu joined #lisp 2014-06-30T16:45:00Z |3b|: preallocating output storage should be an optimization for special cases, not the default way of interacting with things 2014-06-30T16:45:37Z joe-w-bimedina: don't understand "explicitly allocating output storage instead of letting the API handle it", I would need concrete example 2014-06-30T16:46:25Z manuel_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T16:46:38Z |3b|: in your example from last time: https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/38e2f0c79439c0e21b3b 2014-06-30T16:47:13Z Bicyclidine: oh, that is very C++, huh :/ 2014-06-30T16:47:15Z |3b|: you have to explicitly allocate space for keypoints-1 and pass it to feature-detector-detect, then convert it to lisp data 2014-06-30T16:47:28Z |3b|: instead of just calling feature-detector-detect and getting back lisp data 2014-06-30T16:47:33Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-30T16:47:57Z |3b|: that is another example where you are probably going to get GC wrong (or future users who didn't write the lib will, even if you don't) 2014-06-30T16:48:13Z Bicyclidine: what are all those variables for...? 2014-06-30T16:48:27Z |3b|: you set keypoints-1 to have a finalizer, but then extract the contents 2014-06-30T16:48:42Z Bicyclidine: oh, the indentation must be wrong 2014-06-30T16:48:59Z |3b|: unlike lisp data, those contents will be destroyed when keypoints-1 is collected, so if you store them you will be accessing garbage 2014-06-30T16:49:45Z |3b|: Bicyclidine: ignore lines 34-46 in that gist, that was just debugging noise i think 2014-06-30T16:49:58Z |3b|: joe-w-bimedina: but yeah... very c++ 2014-06-30T16:50:09Z KCL_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T16:50:15Z |3b|: but without the features of c++ that would make it bearable, like RAII 2014-06-30T16:50:25Z Bicyclidine: descriptors-1 and stuff is only used in the debugging, is what i was wondering about 2014-06-30T16:50:52Z |3b|: no, that is the stuff i'm complaining about :( 2014-06-30T16:51:15Z joe-w-bimedina: the code works as is great 2014-06-30T16:51:20Z joe-w-bimedina: at the link 2014-06-30T16:51:33Z joe-w-bimedina: its just a basic example 2014-06-30T16:51:33Z |3b|: joe-w-bimedina: it works in C++ great too, so just use c++ if that is your only goal 2014-06-30T16:51:34Z Bicyclidine: the problem isn't whether it functions, the problem is anyone else writing functional code 2014-06-30T16:51:49Z |3b|: joe-w-bimedina: "it's just a basic example" is even more reason why it should look nice 2014-06-30T16:51:56Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-30T16:51:59Z |3b|: if you can't make a basic example nice, what hope is there for real code 2014-06-30T16:52:14Z Bicyclidine: |3b|: i was confused because descriptors-1 and so on are bound in that stupid let* but then only used in 34-46 2014-06-30T16:53:40Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2014-06-30T16:54:01Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T16:55:03Z joe-w-bimedina: don't like to type commas and hit the shift key all the time:), I still go back in and alter examples when I update the code, The examples are mainly to record the ideas I learned so I don't forget them and get updated as the library goes, 2014-06-30T16:57:10Z BitPuffin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-30T16:58:15Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-30T16:59:49Z joe-w-bimedina: what is the syntax to mem-aref a (:pointer (:struct ...)) and get a (:struct ...)/plist 2014-06-30T17:00:17Z |3b|: Bicyclidine: line 48,51 use them too 2014-06-30T17:00:27Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-06-30T17:00:30Z banjara quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-30T17:00:47Z Bicyclidine: ohhhhh i see. 2014-06-30T17:01:11Z Bicyclidine: but yeah, this is basically written as C++ code with more parens. 2014-06-30T17:03:13Z joe-w-bimedina: the examples are made so you can find a c++ example and easily convert to lisp, as I convert more c++ data into lisp data like with line 35, I'll add that to the examples and comment it well 2014-06-30T17:03:20Z Ragnaroek_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-30T17:03:41Z Ragnaroek quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-30T17:04:09Z Bicyclidine: well the point of FFI is usually to let you use C++ code from lisp, rather than to let you write C++ in a lisp implementatino. 2014-06-30T17:05:44Z joe-w-bimedina: that is my goal exactly on line 35 i convert a c++ vector to a lisp list, I plan to do that type of thing as much as possible 2014-06-30T17:06:12Z joe-w-bimedina: anyone know what is the syntax to mem-aref a (:pointer (:struct ...)) and get a (:struct ...)/plist? 2014-06-30T17:07:22Z leb joined #lisp 2014-06-30T17:07:29Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-30T17:09:47Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-06-30T17:10:22Z joe-w-bimedina: never mind , got it 2014-06-30T17:10:23Z |3b|: joe-w-bimedina: user shouldn't need to do the conversion, library should do it 2014-06-30T17:10:33Z therik joined #lisp 2014-06-30T17:10:35Z |3b| isn't sure if that is what you are saying or not 2014-06-30T17:11:06Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2014-06-30T17:11:18Z KCL_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T17:12:54Z joe-w-bimedina: since I figured out why we were getting the error the other day, I'm figuring out how I will implement the solution, 2014-06-30T17:13:38Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T17:13:38Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-30T17:16:53Z leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-30T17:17:29Z loke_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T17:19:34Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2014-06-30T17:22:25Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-30T17:24:20Z joneshf-laptop quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-30T17:25:24Z Soft quit (Quit: -y) 2014-06-30T17:26:02Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2014-06-30T17:27:08Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-06-30T17:27:22Z yrdz joined #lisp 2014-06-30T17:27:27Z fridim_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T17:27:45Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-30T17:28:03Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-30T17:29:54Z KCL joined #lisp 2014-06-30T17:29:56Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-30T17:30:51Z Soft joined #lisp 2014-06-30T17:30:58Z yrdz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-30T17:31:05Z yrdz joined #lisp 2014-06-30T17:32:53Z KCL left #lisp 2014-06-30T17:33:51Z mac_ified quit 2014-06-30T17:35:45Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-06-30T17:37:15Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-30T17:38:14Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-06-30T17:38:39Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2014-06-30T17:38:39Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-06-30T17:41:03Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-06-30T17:43:36Z stassats quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-30T17:44:57Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-06-30T17:49:33Z malbertife joined #lisp 2014-06-30T17:50:10Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2014-06-30T17:50:24Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-06-30T17:52:00Z phax joined #lisp 2014-06-30T17:52:15Z didi: So, AFAIU, in my architecture, a 64 bit integer is a bignum. :^( 2014-06-30T17:52:49Z |3b|: right, most (all?) implementations need some bits for tags, so fixnum is smaller than a machine word 2014-06-30T17:53:17Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T17:53:23Z mhd_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T17:53:24Z |3b|: they probably can use machine words efficiently without tag bits inside a function or in specialized arrays though 2014-06-30T17:54:10Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-06-30T17:54:55Z didi: |3b|: SBCL complains that my integers are not fixnums (when doing (speed 3)), so I guess it's not doing that. 2014-06-30T17:55:36Z _schulte_ quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-30T17:55:52Z didi: Uuuuuh. Wait, wait. 2014-06-30T17:55:53Z |3b|: it needs to be able to tell they will never be more than 64 bits, either through declarations or things like (ldb (byte 64 0) ...) 2014-06-30T17:56:27Z _schulte_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T17:56:40Z didi: Ah. Silly integer declaration. It's like `loop'. `to' x `below'. 2014-06-30T17:56:40Z |3b|: or from previous operations that would have errored if it were more than 64 bits 2014-06-30T17:57:49Z didi: |3b|: I used (integer 0 18446744073709551616) instead of (integer 0 18446744073709551615). 2014-06-30T17:58:11Z test1600 joined #lisp 2014-06-30T17:58:11Z phax quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-30T17:58:26Z didi: I didn't notice that both ends are inclusive. 2014-06-30T17:58:36Z didi: Kool. 2014-06-30T17:58:39Z |3b|: (unsigned-byte 64) would be easier to understand for human readers, if that's what you meant 2014-06-30T17:58:50Z didi: |3b|: Ah. Indeed. 2014-06-30T17:58:57Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-30T17:59:22Z |3b|: clhs mod 2014-06-30T17:59:23Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-06-30T17:59:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_mod.htm 2014-06-30T17:59:51Z |3b|: ^ is another way to write types like that, if unsigned-byte doesn't work 2014-06-30T18:00:00Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T18:00:00Z didi: |3b|: Ah, nice. Thank you. 2014-06-30T18:00:11Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-30T18:00:40Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-06-30T18:02:13Z |3b|: and just for reference, it looks like you can get an exclusive bound with (integer 0 (18446744073709551615)) 2014-06-30T18:02:22Z |3b| hadn't noticed that before 2014-06-30T18:03:17Z Bicyclidine: yeah, you need that for floats or something, too 2014-06-30T18:03:26Z jaimef quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-30T18:03:33Z |3b|: and nobody will ever notice that should have been 6, which is why (unsigned-byte 64) is better :) 2014-06-30T18:03:38Z mhd_ quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2014-06-30T18:04:02Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-30T18:04:23Z mhd_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T18:05:19Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-06-30T18:06:45Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-06-30T18:08:55Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-30T18:09:52Z banjara joined #lisp 2014-06-30T18:10:04Z didi: |3b|: Yeah. Your declaration is way superior than [broken] mine. 2014-06-30T18:10:26Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-06-30T18:12:15Z jaimef joined #lisp 2014-06-30T18:12:57Z Blaguvest joined #lisp 2014-06-30T18:13:01Z joe-w-bimedina: |3b|: Since all my types have a defclass in them somewhere, is there a way I can update the defclass to enable accessing the members of type KEY-POINT, instead of using the defcstruct that fixed the issue, I outline this post at this gist https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/a577a61ac5911d5bbaa8 2014-06-30T18:13:57Z leb joined #lisp 2014-06-30T18:13:57Z |3b|: that seems like a bad idea 2014-06-30T18:14:19Z |3b|: and wrong 2014-06-30T18:14:29Z |3b|: you either have a struct or a pointer to a struct, not both 2014-06-30T18:14:39Z zwer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-30T18:14:43Z clop quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T18:15:01Z yacks quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-30T18:15:14Z joe-w-bimedina: what do you mean, I just showed a defcstruct 2014-06-30T18:15:40Z |3b|: right, defcstruct is right thing to use when you have a struct 2014-06-30T18:15:53Z |3b|: no reason to mix it in with some other thing 2014-06-30T18:17:18Z joe-w-bimedina: yea, with calling everything as decstruct I can't use my defmethods any more because all my return values would be a pointer as in (:pointer (:struct ...)) 2014-06-30T18:17:55Z |3b|: so have a separate type for pointers if you want them handled differently from (:pointer ...) 2014-06-30T18:18:58Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T18:19:32Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-30T18:20:05Z joe-w-bimedina: can that defclass at the gist be updated in any way so I can access a member like I do with the defcstruct, or is that error prone? 2014-06-30T18:20:24Z joe-w-bimedina: am I on the wrong track trying to do this? 2014-06-30T18:20:36Z |3b|: you could rewrite big chunks of cffi and make it do whatever you want, but i have no idea why you would want to 2014-06-30T18:21:02Z |3b| would just use defcstruct though 2014-06-30T18:21:36Z |3b|: you have a c struct that you want to access from cffi 2014-06-30T18:21:48Z |3b|: cffi provides defcstruct for specifying how to access c structs from cffi 2014-06-30T18:22:12Z |3b|: seems logical you would use that, since it does what you want 2014-06-30T18:22:28Z |3b|: you also have C pointers to C structs 2014-06-30T18:22:45Z Sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-30T18:22:47Z |3b|: pointers are not same as structs in C, so you should probably distinguish between them in lisp too 2014-06-30T18:23:01Z joe-w-bimedina: I have a bunch of defmethods called 'x' used to access the x member of any class, how can I update them if I call every return as (:pointer (:struct ...)) 2014-06-30T18:23:18Z joe-w-bimedina: and defmethod y, size etc. 2014-06-30T18:23:37Z joe-w-bimedina: and defmethods y, size, etc... 2014-06-30T18:23:46Z |3b| would say convert them to lisp data structures (normal defclass or whatever), and ignore the pointers 2014-06-30T18:23:55Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T18:24:06Z tesuji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-30T18:24:19Z |3b|: otherwise, do /exactly what you already did/ just name it cv-key-point* or cv-pointer-to-key-point or whatever 2014-06-30T18:24:44Z |3b|: and use that when you have a pointer, and the defcstruct cv-key-point when you have a struct 2014-06-30T18:25:05Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-30T18:25:56Z phadthai joined #lisp 2014-06-30T18:26:17Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-06-30T18:26:19Z joe-w-bimedina: but the return would be SB-SYS:SYSTEM-AREA-POINTER, how would I differentiate between my defcstructs when writing my defmethods 2014-06-30T18:26:45Z phadthai quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-30T18:26:46Z |3b|: you can't pass a c struct to lisp functions 2014-06-30T18:26:53Z phadthai joined #lisp 2014-06-30T18:27:06Z |3b|: so there is nothing to distinguish 2014-06-30T18:27:32Z |3b|: and the return is only that if you tell it to return it as a pointer 2014-06-30T18:27:41Z |3b|: do you get that with the code you had before? 2014-06-30T18:28:06Z |3b|: if you don't want that, then don't do that :p 2014-06-30T18:28:53Z clop joined #lisp 2014-06-30T18:29:40Z joe-w-bimedina: I seem to have to call as a (:pointer (:struct ...)) calling the return as a (:struct ...) gets errors, can you help me with how I would link the working defcstruct at the link I provided to the defclass at the link so I would break my finalizer system? 2014-06-30T18:30:18Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T18:30:21Z |3b| apparently has no idea what you are talking about at this point... 2014-06-30T18:30:25Z zwer joined #lisp 2014-06-30T18:30:33Z |3b|: can you paste some examples of what you are trying to use where and what doesn't work? 2014-06-30T18:30:57Z jaimef quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-30T18:31:01Z joe-w-bimedina: one sec 2014-06-30T18:33:06Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-06-30T18:34:39Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-30T18:35:56Z clop quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-30T18:36:47Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-06-30T18:36:48Z jaimef joined #lisp 2014-06-30T18:37:49Z joe-w-bimedina: |3b|: here is gist to explain https://gist.github.com/W-Net-AI/92caf9d5e088e2bb3d64 2014-06-30T18:38:09Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-06-30T18:38:39Z adlai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-30T18:38:50Z Ragnaroek joined #lisp 2014-06-30T18:39:06Z Ragnaroek_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T18:39:49Z adlai joined #lisp 2014-06-30T18:40:26Z foreignFunction joined #lisp 2014-06-30T18:41:13Z solidus_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-30T18:41:18Z redline6561_ is now known as redline6561 2014-06-30T18:42:00Z solidus_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T18:42:21Z gale joined #lisp 2014-06-30T18:42:56Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T18:43:05Z |3b|: joe-w-bimedina: could you wrap the text lines in those gists in the future? too hard to read with horizontal scrolling 2014-06-30T18:43:18Z Hydan_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T18:43:30Z joe-w-bimedina: sorry, one sec 2014-06-30T18:44:06Z joe-w-bimedina: done 2014-06-30T18:44:18Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T18:44:18Z gale is now known as gingerale 2014-06-30T18:44:38Z wchun quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T18:45:00Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-30T18:46:23Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-06-30T18:48:20Z sword quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-30T18:48:46Z sword joined #lisp 2014-06-30T18:48:52Z FracV quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-30T18:49:15Z FracV joined #lisp 2014-06-30T18:53:47Z sirdancealot quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-30T18:54:18Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-30T18:55:24Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-30T18:56:18Z _8hzp quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T18:56:29Z _8hzp joined #lisp 2014-06-30T18:57:28Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-30T19:02:47Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-30T19:03:07Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-06-30T19:04:49Z clop joined #lisp 2014-06-30T19:04:57Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: session expired by mental meltdown) 2014-06-30T19:10:12Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-30T19:10:19Z axion: anyone see this? https://github.com/shinh/sedlisp 2014-06-30T19:10:54Z AdmiralBumbleBee quit (Quit: AdmiralBumbleBee) 2014-06-30T19:11:55Z ZabaQ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T19:12:00Z rszeno joined #lisp 2014-06-30T19:12:05Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-30T19:12:59Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-30T19:14:18Z jamesf_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T19:15:30Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-30T19:15:32Z joe-w-bimedina: |3b|: did the gist make sense? 2014-06-30T19:16:02Z jamesf quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-06-30T19:24:55Z Oberon_Kidnapped joined #lisp 2014-06-30T19:25:12Z Oberon4278 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-30T19:27:30Z ZabaQ quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-30T19:30:00Z clop quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-06-30T19:31:04Z Code_Man` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T19:31:36Z [SLB] quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-30T19:32:25Z [SLB] joined #lisp 2014-06-30T19:34:29Z Eyes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T19:34:56Z fikusz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-06-30T19:35:16Z Eyes joined #lisp 2014-06-30T19:36:23Z jamesf_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-30T19:37:33Z fikusz joined #lisp 2014-06-30T19:37:53Z jamesf joined #lisp 2014-06-30T19:38:09Z sz0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T19:38:23Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-06-30T19:39:32Z Hydan quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-06-30T19:40:05Z |3b|: joe-w-bimedina: why not just wrap that in a function that converts it to a lisp array if lisp classes? 2014-06-30T19:41:20Z joe-w-bimedina: |3bd|: on't understand "lisp array if lisp classes" 2014-06-30T19:41:26Z joe-w-bimedina: |3bd|: don't understand "lisp array if lisp classes" 2014-06-30T19:41:33Z ovidnis joined #lisp 2014-06-30T19:41:36Z |3b|: sorry, lisp array of lisp classes 2014-06-30T19:42:18Z joe-w-bimedina: and wrap what precisely, the defmethod 2014-06-30T19:42:30Z joe-w-bimedina: or is this concerning the defmethod 2014-06-30T19:42:49Z |3b|: avoiding the need for that defmethod 2014-06-30T19:43:53Z joe-w-bimedina: could use clarification, I did only provide 1 class, the key-point defclass, 2014-06-30T19:43:59Z |3b|: lisp code should see a lisp VECTOR 2014-06-30T19:44:23Z |3b|: containing instances of lisp classes 2014-06-30T19:44:32Z |3b|: with no CFFI pointers 2014-06-30T19:45:50Z joe-w-bimedina: it does with the :to-lisp-vec keyword in the macro vector-key-point, can you show me a concrete example of what you mean eg "lisp array of lisp classes" 2014-06-30T19:46:08Z |3b|: that shouldn't be a macro 2014-06-30T19:46:33Z joe-w-bimedina: what are the downfalls, I did get more speed as macro 2014-06-30T19:46:38Z |3b|: and it should have separate functions for each thing it does, rather than 1 big magic thing that does random unrelated things depending on an argument 2014-06-30T19:46:51Z oconnore_ is now known as oconnore 2014-06-30T19:47:03Z Bicyclidine: if you're using a macro for speed you oughta just inline, surely. 2014-06-30T19:47:07Z |3b|: it will annoy lisp programmers 2014-06-30T19:47:10Z |3b|: it will be hard to use 2014-06-30T19:47:14Z |3b|: you can't funcall or apply it 2014-06-30T19:47:24Z |3b|: it is harder to write macros correctly 2014-06-30T19:47:37Z |3b|: it probably isn't actually 'faster' in any meaningful way 2014-06-30T19:48:00Z Eyes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T19:48:21Z jewel_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-06-30T19:48:23Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-30T19:48:29Z [SLB] quit (Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt) 2014-06-30T19:48:32Z |3b|: you should be optimizing for developer time, not execution time 2014-06-30T19:48:49Z |3b|: if you want speed at the expense of being harder to use, just use c++ 2014-06-30T19:48:53Z Eyes joined #lisp 2014-06-30T19:49:04Z joe-w-bimedina: it does, the functions it calls have relevent names that can be used, they are external too, ok I will switch to defun's .... 2014-06-30T19:49:50Z |3b|: even more reason to not add a confusing macro on top if you already have well named functions that do the specific things 2014-06-30T19:50:14Z |3b|: but users shouldn't need to call it anyway 2014-06-30T19:50:42Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-30T19:50:50Z |3b|: they should either have a lisp array in the first place, or be dealing with the pointers directly in speed-sensitive code that needs to be faster 2014-06-30T19:51:08Z |3b|: hint: defmethod doesn't belong in that sort of code either 2014-06-30T19:51:32Z jaimef quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-30T19:51:33Z |3b|: so making the user deal with pointers isn't helping speed 2014-06-30T19:51:49Z joe-w-bimedina: the user doesnt have to 2014-06-30T19:52:04Z |3b|: so that poorly named "GC" package doesn't exist? 2014-06-30T19:52:25Z joe-w-bimedina: it does 2014-06-30T19:52:33Z |3b|: so users never have to use it? 2014-06-30T19:52:52Z joe-w-bimedina: I use it all the time, its very conveinent 2014-06-30T19:52:54Z |3b|: and will never have memory leaks if they don't use it, and don't explicityl free things? 2014-06-30T19:53:29Z |3b|: it is very convenient because you are forced to deal with pointers 2014-06-30T19:53:36Z |3b|: it would be even more convenient to not have to use it 2014-06-30T19:53:43Z jxv joined #lisp 2014-06-30T19:53:54Z H4ns: "only because you find it convenient does not mean it is not a bad idea" :) 2014-06-30T19:54:11Z H4ns: php is convenient, too. 2014-06-30T19:54:13Z |3b|: it is also convenient because you aren't doing anything complicated enough to notice you are leaking memory and accessing freed memory 2014-06-30T19:54:47Z joe-w-bimedina: i provide all 3 forms of MM, the gc package is just for finalizers, if I made finalizers automatic the code would be slow 2014-06-30T19:55:27Z |3b|: what do you consider "all 3 forms"? 2014-06-30T19:55:30Z joe-w-bimedina: can we do a "lisp array of lisp classes" example first, it would be easier to do one thing at a time for me 2014-06-30T19:55:40Z joe-w-bimedina: manual, with-* and tg 2014-06-30T19:56:36Z joe-w-bimedina: i test for memory leaks btw, most examples are clean, some still have leaks though 2014-06-30T19:56:43Z [SLB] joined #lisp 2014-06-30T19:56:44Z |3b| doesn't seem to be able to explain things to you :( 2014-06-30T19:56:48Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2014-06-30T19:57:18Z |3b|: i may make another attempt at making some code in a few days after i finish what i am doing now, but i don't think words will help at the moment 2014-06-30T19:59:00Z joe-w-bimedina: just be easier to do 1 thing at a time, eg the gist I posted, I can wait but I was hoping to get the type issue out of the way first, would it help if in the meantime i converted my vector-* macross back to functions 2014-06-30T20:00:04Z |3b|: "one thing" is hard when the solution for all of the "one thing"s is to rewrite from scratch :/ 2014-06-30T20:00:18Z jaimef joined #lisp 2014-06-30T20:00:32Z |3b| told you how to make it work like it did a while ago, but i still think "working like it did" is wrong 2014-06-30T20:00:42Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T20:00:54Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-06-30T20:00:58Z joe-w-bimedina: if I could get my types right the rest would be easier 2014-06-30T20:01:00Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-06-30T20:01:38Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T20:01:56Z joe-w-bimedina: if you did "told you how to make it work like it did a while ago" I do apoligize but I didn't understand 2014-06-30T20:02:19Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T20:02:33Z |3b|: the right types if i were writing it would be a defcstruct and (:pointer (:struct ...)) 2014-06-30T20:02:43Z manuel_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-06-30T20:02:44Z manuel__ is now known as manuel_ 2014-06-30T20:02:49Z |3b|: and VECTOR and some lisp class 2014-06-30T20:03:08Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-06-30T20:03:17Z joe-w-bimedina: how would I use tg finalizer though 2014-06-30T20:03:26Z |3b|: i wouldn't 2014-06-30T20:03:35Z theos joined #lisp 2014-06-30T20:03:46Z clop joined #lisp 2014-06-30T20:03:49Z joe-w-bimedina: it has helped sometimes 2014-06-30T20:03:55Z |3b|: not with lisp data 2014-06-30T20:05:12Z yrk quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-30T20:07:00Z joe-w-bimedina: still can a defcstruct return be finalized, I do like having the option, If not I would have to mull that over, my tutor suggested I provide all 3 forms of MM 2014-06-30T20:08:56Z clop quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-30T20:10:07Z joe-w-bimedina: having the most things converted into lisp data would be fastest though, and I do hardly ever use the finalizers, sometimes they were neccessary though, and they make repl work easier 2014-06-30T20:12:16Z moore33 joined #lisp 2014-06-30T20:12:57Z joe-w-bimedina: Bicyclidine: when you said "if you're using a macro for speed you oughta just inline, surely" .....if i converted all my vector-* defmacros to defuns and placed a (declaim (inline ...)) above them, would that be a step in the right direction 2014-06-30T20:13:28Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-06-30T20:13:46Z Bicyclidine: that is how you say a function should be inlined, yes 2014-06-30T20:15:00Z joe-w-bimedina: do you mean "that is how a function should be inlined", 2014-06-30T20:15:20Z Bicyclidine: No, but it's that too. 2014-06-30T20:16:20Z Sir_herrbatka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-06-30T20:16:48Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-30T20:16:54Z joe-w-bimedina: ok so I'll convert to defuns and inline like i posted and then that would be a better way then right 2014-06-30T20:17:18Z Bicyclidine: sure. macros and functions should be used for totally different purposes. 2014-06-30T20:17:45Z joe-w-bimedina: when are macros to be used 2014-06-30T20:18:15Z Bicyclidine: When you want to define a syntax. 2014-06-30T20:18:22Z Bike joined #lisp 2014-06-30T20:18:40Z |3b|: functions like that shouldn't need to be inlined 2014-06-30T20:18:58Z joe-w-bimedina: like make an easier to use let function? 2014-06-30T20:19:00Z Bicyclidine: i haven't looked at the particular functions, i'm just speaking generally 2014-06-30T20:19:06Z Oberon_Kidnapped is now known as Oberon 2014-06-30T20:19:20Z Oberon is now known as Oberon4278 2014-06-30T20:19:21Z |3b|: use macros for things like with-* 2014-06-30T20:19:39Z Adlai` joined #lisp 2014-06-30T20:19:46Z |3b|: (and they should expand to a function call too, the macro is just to make the syntax a bit nicer) 2014-06-30T20:19:59Z adlai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T20:20:08Z nydel quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-06-30T20:20:13Z joe-w-bimedina: ok thanks 2014-06-30T20:20:41Z |3b|: do any CL implementations have any way to tell where in a file a macro is expanded (if applicable)? 2014-06-30T20:20:42Z nydel joined #lisp 2014-06-30T20:21:33Z |3b|: and preferably where in the file any forms passed to the macro were located 2014-06-30T20:22:42Z PuercoPop: doesn't slime x-ref has a who-macroexpands? 2014-06-30T20:22:55Z clop joined #lisp 2014-06-30T20:23:00Z |3b|: i mean during the macro expansion 2014-06-30T20:23:03Z DrCode quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-30T20:23:20Z |3b| wonders how many of the free lisps would be amenable to implementing something like that if there were a specification 2014-06-30T20:24:02Z jamesf_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T20:25:50Z jamesf quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-30T20:28:34Z sirdancealot joined #lisp 2014-06-30T20:30:06Z DrCode joined #lisp 2014-06-30T20:31:00Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-06-30T20:33:57Z leb quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-06-30T20:38:29Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-30T20:40:40Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-06-30T20:40:52Z BitPuffin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-06-30T20:41:48Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-06-30T20:44:12Z replcated_ quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-06-30T20:45:33Z replcated joined #lisp 2014-06-30T20:45:44Z billitch quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2014-06-30T20:48:00Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-06-30T20:50:14Z ggole quit 2014-06-30T20:51:40Z Mandus: Hi - I am working on a client for an API which uses PKCS#1 v1.5 RSA-SHA256 signature for authorization. Any idea on lisp-libraries that support this, in particular importing an RSA private key pem and generate the SHA256 signature? 2014-06-30T20:51:59Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-06-30T20:53:10Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T20:53:12Z |3b|: ironclad or some ffi to an ssl lib would be my guess 2014-06-30T20:53:19Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-06-30T20:53:31Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2014-06-30T20:53:54Z phadthai: maybe http://cliki.net/CL%2BSSL 2014-06-30T20:55:12Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-06-30T20:56:06Z Mandus: I have already looked at ironclad, and it do provide most of what I need, but miss a few pieces. Looking at CL+SSL now, maybe I find the missing pieces there 2014-06-30T20:56:09Z Mandus: thx 2014-06-30T20:56:50Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2014-06-30T20:58:01Z ehu_ joined #lisp 2014-06-30T20:58:23Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-30T20:58:39Z malbertife joined #lisp 2014-06-30T21:09:12Z Mandus: Hmm, found something called CryptiCL - a bit old, but seems to include what I need 2014-06-30T21:11:52Z dkcl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-30T21:14:26Z jaimef quit (Excess Flood) 2014-06-30T21:14:32Z foreignFunction quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-06-30T21:17:17Z jaimef joined #lisp 2014-06-30T21:19:57Z Xach: pem decoding is a little tedious but not rocket science, in case you have to make it yourself 2014-06-30T21:20:16Z tajjada quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-06-30T21:21:40Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-06-30T21:21:53Z CrazyWoods quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-06-30T21:21:57Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-06-30T21:22:12Z tajjada joined #lisp 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FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K 2014-06-30T23:46:30Z heyfu[kyou: 60734 TH1S SP@M BR0UGHT T0 Y0U C0URTESY 0F AlL THE FU[KING FREEN0DE 0PERATORS. 2014-06-30T23:46:35Z heyfu[kyou: 83939 FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES 2014-06-30T23:46:40Z heyfu[kyou: FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL 78116 FU[K YOU 2014-06-30T23:46:45Z heyfu[kyou: 56901 FU[KERS 53940 FU[KERS 41368 FU[KERS 29920 FU[KERS FU[KERS FU[KERS FU[KERS FU[KERS FU[KERS FU[KERS 2014-06-30T23:46:50Z heyfu[kyou: PHUCK U ALL PHUCK U ALL PHUCK U ALL 6691 PHUCK U ALL PHUCK U ALL PHUCK U ALL PHUCK U ALL PHUCK U ALL PHUCK U ALL PHUCK U ALL 2014-06-30T23:46:55Z heyfu[kyou: FU[K 3616 FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K 2014-06-30T23:46:59Z joe-w-bimedina: is this a normal occurence?? 2014-06-30T23:47:00Z heyfu[kyou: FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL 40226 FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL 2014-06-30T23:47:05Z heyfu[kyou: 18983 TH1S SP@M BR0UGHT T0 Y0U C0URTESY 0F AlL THE FU[KING FREEN0DE 0PERATORS. 2014-06-30T23:47:07Z nightfly: ah fuck 2014-06-30T23:47:10Z heyfu[kyou: FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL 84946 FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL 2014-06-30T23:47:15Z heyfu[kyou: FU[KERS FU[K FU[KERS FU[K FU[K FU[KERS FU[KING BITCHES FU[K FU[K YOU ALL FU[KERS FU[K YOU ALL FU[KERS FU[K YOU ALL 15680 FU[KERS 2014-06-30T23:47:21Z heyfu[kyou: FU[K 52074 FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K 2014-06-30T23:47:21Z zRecursive: : /ignore heyfu[kyou 2014-06-30T23:47:25Z heyfu[kyou: 34300 TH1S SP@M BR0UGHT T0 Y0U C0URTESY 0F AlL THE FU[KING FREEN0DE 0PERATORS. 2014-06-30T23:47:30Z heyfu[kyou: 68144 TH1S SP@M BR0UGHT T0 Y0U C0URTESY 0F AlL THE FU[KING FREEN0DE 0PERATORS. 2014-06-30T23:47:35Z heyfu[kyou: FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL 61377 FU[K YOU 2014-06-30T23:47:38Z joe-w-bimedina: : /ignore heyfu[kyou 2014-06-30T23:47:40Z heyfu[kyou: MOTHER FU[KERS 54204 MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS 2014-06-30T23:47:45Z heyfu[kyou: 71786 TH1S SP@M BR0UGHT T0 Y0U C0URTESY 0F AlL THE FU[KING FREEN0DE 0PERATORS. 2014-06-30T23:47:50Z heyfu[kyou: FU[KERS FU[K FU[KERS FU[K FU[K FU[KERS FU[KING BITCHES FU[K FU[K YOU ALL FU[KERS FU[K YOU ALL FU[KERS FU[K YOU ALL 46093 FU[KERS 2014-06-30T23:47:52Z bcoburn joined #lisp 2014-06-30T23:47:55Z heyfu[kyou: FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU BITCH FU[K YOU ALL 53637 FU[K YOU BITCH 2014-06-30T23:48:00Z heyfu[kyou: FU[KERS FU[K FU[KERS FU[K FU[K FU[KERS FU[KING BITCHES FU[K FU[K YOU ALL FU[KERS FU[K YOU ALL FU[KERS FU[K YOU ALL 2450 FU[KERS 2014-06-30T23:48:05Z heyfu[kyou: 83088 FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES 2014-06-30T23:48:10Z heyfu[kyou: FU[KERS FU[K FU[KERS FU[K FU[K FU[KERS FU[KING BITCHES FU[K FU[K YOU ALL FU[KERS FU[K YOU ALL FU[KERS FU[K YOU ALL 77610 FU[KERS 2014-06-30T23:48:15Z heyfu[kyou: 56683 FU[KERS 3706 FU[KERS 68179 FU[KERS 36862 FU[KERS FU[KERS FU[KERS FU[KERS FU[KERS FU[KERS FU[KERS 2014-06-30T23:48:20Z heyfu[kyou: FU[K 61163 FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K 2014-06-30T23:48:25Z heyfu[kyou: 47008 FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES 2014-06-30T23:48:27Z Bicyclidine: don't use the colon. /foo indicates a command to your irc client. 2014-06-30T23:48:30Z heyfu[kyou: MOTHER FU[KERS 11717 MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS MOTHER FU[KERS 2014-06-30T23:48:35Z heyfu[kyou: FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU BITCH FU[K YOU ALL 20629 FU[K YOU BITCH 2014-06-30T23:48:40Z heyfu[kyou: FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU BITCH FU[K YOU ALL 81491 FU[K YOU BITCH 2014-06-30T23:48:45Z heyfu[kyou: FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL 77153 FU[K YOU 2014-06-30T23:48:50Z heyfu[kyou: FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL 61498 FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL 2014-06-30T23:48:50Z pillton left #lisp 2014-06-30T23:48:55Z heyfu[kyou: FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU ALL FU[K YOU BITCH FU[K YOU ALL 27402 FU[K YOU BITCH 2014-06-30T23:48:56Z pillton joined #lisp 2014-06-30T23:49:00Z heyfu[kyou: 33866 FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES 2014-06-30T23:49:04Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-06-30T23:49:05Z heyfu[kyou: 58455 FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES 2014-06-30T23:49:10Z heyfu[kyou: FU[K 87357 FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K FU[K 2014-06-30T23:49:15Z sykopomp: Xach: 2014-06-30T23:49:15Z heyfu[kyou: 18548 FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES FU[KING BITCHES 2014-06-30T23:49:17Z ChanServ has set mode +o p_l 2014-06-30T23:49:20Z p_l has set mode +b *!*fckbot@178.162.205.* 2014-06-30T23:49:20Z heyfu[kyou [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has been kicked from #lisp by p_l (heyfu[kyou) 2014-06-30T23:49:32Z pillton joined #lisp 2014-06-30T23:49:51Z joe-w-bimedina: p_l: thank you! 2014-06-30T23:50:09Z davazp joined #lisp 2014-06-30T23:50:09Z jleija joined #lisp 2014-06-30T23:54:32Z p_l: joe-w-bimedina: it's not a normal occurence, but someone apparently decided to be an annoying dick... unfortunately I didn't take a look recently and I don't have urgency monitoring, either... 2014-06-30T23:55:13Z joe-w-bimedina: thanks for kicking him out 2014-06-30T23:56:02Z nha_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-06-30T23:57:48Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp