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2014-05-01T00:08:29Z names: superjudge Amaan therik palter Krystof foom Hydan gigetoo axion Denommus ahungry_ sellout varjag_ c74d Jubb blakbunnie27 stassats CrazyWoods DGASAU flip214 harish edgar-rft d1323 leo2007 gf3 theos cantstanya ejt yacks sausages Cymew tessier patrickwonders impulse vlnx ``Erik MrWoohoo MightyJoe sirdancealot Mandus qiemem hugod wilfredh teiresias sfa ggherdov_ Kruppe ft nydel WeirdEnthusiast kirin` ThePhoeron matko Khisanth milosn mindCrime_ hzp optikalmouse
2014-05-01T00:08:29Z names: findiggle joga drewc ecraven [SLB] s00pcan yano sandbender1512 loke_ macdice schoppenhauer Borbus ozzloy Xach Tristam wgreenhouse scharan tbarletz theBlackDragon kyl _death cmatei funnel hyoyoung_home Bike The_third_man joast Intensity billstclair oconnore brown` doomlord__ Patzy hlavaty Tenkujin zarul karswell` keen______ GuilOooo ZombieChicken hypno_ rvchangue ampharmex echo[1] heddwch les dfox fe[nl]ix Blkt ivan\ zeroish asedeno dRbiG ktx easye Zag
2014-05-01T00:08:29Z names: sauerkrause smull nullman felideon vim_shim jaimef j_king PuercoPop abeaumont mr-foobar arbscht DarkLinkXXXX Kabaka_ AZTech whartung djinni` __main__ White_Flame TheMoonMaster clop _d3f mathrick_ jackdaniel gingerale crack Munksgaard htmzr benny cods freiksenet finnrobi Tordek nicdev dlowe ec Iceland_jack |3b| bhyde leoc ineiros_ [1]JPeterson mathrick katlogic fnordbert splittist SHODAN ircbrows- dstolfa gz vpm kanru joneshf InvalidCo zbigniew srcerer ski
2014-05-01T00:08:29Z names: _schulte_ wchun gabot dsp_ sshirokov lemoinem farhaven ferada hpd ck_ angavrilov Natch naryl tali713 johanbev emma drdo yroeht2 dim acieroid redline6561 dan64 justinmcp zxq9 TristamWrk z0d nimiux micrypt loke Praise madmalik sigjuice _tca endou mksan shwouchk joshe bjorkintosh pchrist killmaster bege e2xistz Neptu ramus _5kg rtoym faheem_ lupine xtsee stopbit cibs rk[1] __class__ nightshade427 madnificent vert2 Posterdati spacebat junkris aoh daimrod Corey
2014-05-01T00:08:29Z names: jtz Nshag nop0x07bc xristos vhost- jayne sgray10 d4gg4d p_l jasom honkfestival j0ni antoszka luis eagleflo BlastHardcheese mood Ober nitro_idiot eak felipe misv nightfly tkd codeburg Anarch wormphle1m jdoles Fade H4ns quasisane rvirding eee-blt gko mtd kbtr cpt_nemo Guest69942 housel clog rotty froggey musicalchair gensym mikaelj setheus aerique sklr nialo` yauz jsnell_ Zhivago johs p_l|backup cmbntr brandonz sjl Adeon specbot Odin- K1rk abbe sytse Subfusc
2014-05-01T00:08:29Z names: ered minion Colleen guaqua mal_ ConstantineXVI sbryant Mathieu copec galdor brucem eigenlicht alchemis7 zmyrgel fmu peccu3 eMBee devon zymurgy tomaw zz_karupa saarin oGMo pok andyo_ AeroNotix samebchase tvaalen phadthai cross REPLeffect aLmostHumAn yeltzooo
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2014-05-01T00:13:51Z names: ccl-logbot Guest213O3 ianmcorvidae JuanDaugherty ltbarcly DataLinkDroid zacts Sgeo cmack``` wccoder araujo nha_ akbiggs_ McMAGIC--Copy pdurbin eudoxia orivej effy Ethan- sz0 lemonodor rpg seangrove zacharias ahungry cyphase fikusz Gooder yrdz bgs100 mhd_ aeth gluegadget victor_lowther LostDatagram nug700 AntiSpamMeta otwieracz hellome oleo pavelpenev yrk ASau JuanitoJons Karl_Dscc BitPuffin shridhar KCL MoALTz Oddity Vivitron stardiviner bobbysmith007
2014-05-01T00:13:51Z names: superjudge Amaan therik palter Krystof foom Hydan gigetoo axion Denommus ahungry_ sellout varjag_ c74d Jubb blakbunnie27 stassats CrazyWoods DGASAU flip214 harish edgar-rft d1323 leo2007 gf3 theos cantstanya ejt yacks sausages Cymew tessier patrickwonders impulse vlnx ``Erik MrWoohoo MightyJoe sirdancealot Mandus qiemem hugod wilfredh teiresias sfa ggherdov_ Kruppe ft nydel WeirdEnthusiast kirin` ThePhoeron matko Khisanth milosn mindCrime_ hzp
2014-05-01T00:13:51Z names: optikalmouse findiggle joga drewc ecraven [SLB] s00pcan yano sandbender1512 loke_ macdice schoppenhauer Borbus ozzloy Xach Tristam wgreenhouse scharan tbarletz theBlackDragon kyl _death cmatei funnel hyoyoung_home Bike The_third_man joast Intensity billstclair oconnore brown` doomlord__ Patzy hlavaty Tenkujin zarul karswell` keen______ GuilOooo ZombieChicken hypno_ rvchangue ampharmex echo[1] heddwch les dfox fe[nl]ix Blkt ivan\ zeroish asedeno dRbiG ktx
2014-05-01T00:13:51Z names: easye Zag sauerkrause smull nullman felideon vim_shim jaimef j_king PuercoPop abeaumont mr-foobar arbscht DarkLinkXXXX Kabaka_ AZTech whartung djinni` __main__ White_Flame TheMoonMaster clop _d3f mathrick_ jackdaniel gingerale crack Munksgaard htmzr benny cods freiksenet finnrobi Tordek nicdev dlowe ec Iceland_jack |3b| bhyde leoc ineiros_ [1]JPeterson mathrick katlogic fnordbert splittist SHODAN ircbrows- dstolfa gz vpm kanru joneshf InvalidCo zbigniew
2014-05-01T00:13:51Z names: srcerer ski _schulte_ wchun gabot dsp_ sshirokov lemoinem farhaven ferada hpd ck_ angavrilov Natch naryl tali713 johanbev emma drdo yroeht2 dim acieroid redline6561 dan64 justinmcp zxq9 TristamWrk z0d nimiux micrypt loke Praise madmalik sigjuice _tca endou mksan shwouchk joshe bjorkintosh pchrist killmaster bege e2xistz Neptu ramus _5kg rtoym faheem_ lupine xtsee stopbit cibs rk[1] __class__ nightshade427 madnificent vert2 Posterdati spacebat junkris aoh
2014-05-01T00:13:51Z names: daimrod Corey jtz Nshag nop0x07bc xristos vhost- jayne sgray10 d4gg4d p_l jasom honkfestival j0ni antoszka luis eagleflo BlastHardcheese saarin oGMo pok andyo_ AeroNotix samebchase tvaalen phadthai cross REPLeffect aLmostHumAn yeltzooo zz_karupa tomaw zymurgy devon eMBee peccu3 fmu zmyrgel alchemis7 eigenlicht brucem galdor copec Mathieu sbryant ConstantineXVI mal_ guaqua Colleen minion ered mood Ober nitro_idiot eak felipe misv nightfly tkd codeburg
2014-05-01T00:13:51Z names: Anarch wormphle1m jdoles Fade H4ns quasisane rvirding eee-blt gko mtd kbtr cpt_nemo Guest69942 housel clog rotty froggey musicalchair gensym mikaelj setheus aerique sklr nialo` yauz jsnell_ Zhivago johs p_l|backup cmbntr brandonz sjl Adeon specbot Odin- K1rk abbe sytse Subfusc
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2014-05-01T00:19:13Z names: superjudge Amaan therik palter Krystof foom Hydan gigetoo axion Denommus ahungry_ sellout varjag_ c74d Jubb blakbunnie27 stassats CrazyWoods DGASAU flip214 harish edgar-rft d1323 leo2007 gf3 theos cantstanya ejt yacks sausages Cymew tessier patrickwonders impulse vlnx ``Erik MrWoohoo MightyJoe sirdancealot Mandus qiemem hugod wilfredh teiresias sfa ggherdov_ Kruppe ft nydel WeirdEnthusiast kirin` ThePhoeron matko Khisanth milosn mindCrime_ hzp
2014-05-01T00:19:13Z names: optikalmouse findiggle joga drewc ecraven [SLB] s00pcan yano sandbender1512 loke_ macdice schoppenhauer Borbus ozzloy Xach Tristam wgreenhouse scharan tbarletz theBlackDragon kyl _death cmatei funnel hyoyoung_home Bike The_third_man joast Intensity billstclair oconnore brown` doomlord__ Patzy hlavaty Tenkujin zarul karswell` keen______ GuilOooo ZombieChicken hypno_ rvchangue ampharmex echo[1] heddwch les dfox fe[nl]ix Blkt ivan\ zeroish asedeno dRbiG ktx
2014-05-01T00:19:13Z names: easye Zag sauerkrause smull nullman felideon vim_shim jaimef j_king PuercoPop abeaumont mr-foobar arbscht DarkLinkXXXX Kabaka_ AZTech whartung djinni` __main__ White_Flame TheMoonMaster clop _d3f mathrick_ jackdaniel gingerale crack Munksgaard htmzr benny cods freiksenet finnrobi Tordek nicdev dlowe ec Iceland_jack |3b| bhyde leoc ineiros_ [1]JPeterson mathrick katlogic fnordbert splittist SHODAN ircbrows- dstolfa gz vpm kanru joneshf InvalidCo zbigniew
2014-05-01T00:19:13Z names: srcerer ski _schulte_ wchun gabot dsp_ sshirokov lemoinem farhaven ferada hpd ck_ angavrilov Natch naryl tali713 johanbev emma drdo yroeht2 dim acieroid redline6561 dan64 justinmcp zxq9 TristamWrk z0d nimiux micrypt loke Praise madmalik sigjuice _tca endou mksan shwouchk joshe bjorkintosh pchrist killmaster bege e2xistz Neptu ramus _5kg rtoym faheem_ lupine xtsee stopbit cibs Acid-Burn __class__ nightshade427 madnificent vert2 Posterdati spacebat junkris
2014-05-01T00:19:13Z names: aoh daimrod Corey jtz Nshag nop0x07bc xristos vhost- jayne sgray10 d4gg4d p_l jasom honkfestival j0ni antoszka luis eagleflo BlastHardcheese saarin oGMo pok andyo_ AeroNotix samebchase tvaalen phadthai cross REPLeffect aLmostHumAn yeltzooo zz_karupa tomaw zymurgy devon eMBee peccu3 fmu zmyrgel alchemis7 eigenlicht brucem galdor copec Mathieu sbryant ConstantineXVI mal_ guaqua Colleen minion ered Subfusc sytse abbe K1rk Odin- specbot Adeon sjl brandonz
2014-05-01T00:19:13Z names: cmbntr aerique setheus mikaelj gensym musicalchair froggey rotty clog housel Guest69942 mood Ober nitro_idiot eak felipe misv nightfly tkd codeburg Anarch wormphle1m jdoles Fade H4ns quasisane rvirding eee-blt gko mtd kbtr cpt_nemo sklr nialo` yauz jsnell_ Zhivago johs p_l|backup
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2014-05-01T00:20:17Z leo2007: stassats: thanks; I think I plugged the leak.
2014-05-01T00:20:33Z stassats: how?
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2014-05-01T00:26:18Z leo2007: those Copy functions require manual release.
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2014-05-01T00:26:55Z leo2007: so I put a #/autorelease on the nsarray and now no leak is observed.
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2014-05-01T00:27:25Z JuanDaugherty: there's a thing like valgrid for list/sbcl?
2014-05-01T00:27:30Z JuanDaugherty: n
2014-05-01T00:27:40Z stassats: no
2014-05-01T00:28:07Z JuanDaugherty: so leaks are just inferred from room or whatever?
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2014-05-01T00:28:43Z JuanDaugherty: *lisp
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2014-05-01T00:31:25Z JuanDaugherty: i guess you could run sbcl under valgrind
2014-05-01T00:32:16Z stassats: that won't do anything good
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2014-05-01T00:49:39Z names: Krystof foom Hydan gigetoo axion ahungry_ sellout varjag_ c74d Jubb blakbunnie27 stassats CrazyWoods DGASAU flip214 harish edgar-rft d1323 leo2007 gf3 theos cantstanya ejt yacks sausages Cymew tessier patrickwonders vlnx ``Erik MrWoohoo MightyJoe sirdancealot Mandus qiemem hugod wilfredh teiresias sfa ggherdov_ Kruppe ft nydel WeirdEnthusiast kirin` ThePhoeron matko Khisanth milosn mindCrime_ hzp optikalmouse findiggle joga drewc ecraven [SLB] s00pcan yano
2014-05-01T00:49:39Z names: sandbender1512 loke_ macdice schoppenhauer Borbus ozzloy Xach Tristam wgreenhouse scharan tbarletz theBlackDragon kyl _death cmatei funnel hyoyoung_home Bike The_third_man joast Intensity billstclair oconnore brown` doomlord__ Patzy hlavaty Tenkujin zarul karswell` keen______ GuilOooo ZombieChicken hypno_ rvchangue ampharmex echo[1] heddwch les dfox fe[nl]ix Blkt ivan\ zeroish asedeno dRbiG ktx easye Zag sauerkrause smull nullman felideon vim_shim jaimef
2014-05-01T00:49:39Z names: j_king PuercoPop abeaumont mr-foobar arbscht DarkLinkXXXX Kabaka_ AZTech whartung djinni` __main__ White_Flame TheMoonMaster clop _d3f mathrick_ jackdaniel gingerale crack Munksgaard htmzr benny cods freiksenet finnrobi Tordek nicdev dlowe ec Iceland_jack |3b| bhyde leoc ineiros_ [1]JPeterson mathrick katlogic fnordbert splittist SHODAN ircbrows- dstolfa gz vpm kanru joneshf InvalidCo zbigniew srcerer ski _schulte_ wchun gabot dsp_ sshirokov lemoinem
2014-05-01T00:49:39Z names: farhaven ferada hpd ck_ angavrilov Natch naryl tali713 johanbev emma drdo yroeht2 dim acieroid redline6561 dan64 justinmcp zxq9 TristamWrk z0d nimiux micrypt loke Praise madmalik sigjuice _tca endou mksan shwouchk joshe bjorkintosh pchrist killmaster bege e2xistz Neptu ramus _5kg rtoym faheem_ lupine xtsee stopbit cibs rk[1] __class__ nightshade427 madnificent vert2 Posterdati spacebat junkris aoh daimrod Corey jtz Nshag nop0x07bc xristos vhost- jayne
2014-05-01T00:49:39Z names: sgray10 d4gg4d p_l jasom honkfestival j0ni antoszka luis eagleflo BlastHardcheese saarin oGMo pok andyo_ AeroNotix samebchase tvaalen phadthai cross REPLeffect aLmostHumAn yeltzooo zz_karupa tomaw zymurgy devon eMBee peccu3 fmu zmyrgel alchemis7 eigenlicht brucem galdor copec Mathieu sbryant ConstantineXVI mal_ guaqua Colleen minion ered brandonz cmbntr mood Ober nitro_idiot eak felipe misv nightfly tkd codeburg Anarch wormphle1m jdoles Fade H4ns quasisane
2014-05-01T00:49:39Z names: rvirding eee-blt gko mtd kbtr cpt_nemo Guest69942 housel clog rotty froggey musicalchair gensym mikaelj setheus aerique sklr nialo` yauz jsnell_ Zhivago johs p_l|backup sjl Adeon specbot Odin- K1rk abbe sytse Subfusc
2014-05-01T00:52:55Z orivej: This won't help in finding memory leaks, but may it help in debugging memory corruption? I am trying to understand why an OpenAxiom image derived from SBCL fails to compile some lisp under Gentoo sandbox (using LD_PRELOAD and ptrace), and valgrind exibits the same error as the sandbox, but earlier.
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2014-05-01T01:12:56Z leo2007: is there a standard way for directoryp?
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2014-05-01T01:20:36Z stassats: no type and file components
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2014-05-01T01:21:54Z stassats: leo2007: you are confused about rlet and memory, _LSCopyAllApplicationURLs only puts a pointer into the variable allocated by rlet
2014-05-01T01:22:01Z stassats: the data is on the heap
2014-05-01T01:26:22Z leo2007: stassats: thanks for that.
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2014-05-01T02:44:12Z j_king: started: https://github.com/agentultra/butler
2014-05-01T02:44:14Z j_king: it's a kernel for iPython front ends like the nifty notebook
2014-05-01T02:47:25Z j_king: could use some critique... haven't written CL code for public consumption before.
2014-05-01T02:47:53Z p_l: is there LE PPC64 lisp available?
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2014-05-01T02:49:54Z joshe: not a question you hear every day
2014-05-01T02:50:26Z p_l: joshe: well, majority of non-AIX POWER8 hw appears to run in LE mode
2014-05-01T02:50:40Z joshe: indeed
2014-05-01T02:51:10Z joshe: I had heard that was a major barrier to porting virtual pc to the g5, no little-endian mode
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2014-05-01T03:02:30Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-05-01T03:27:47Z quazi: i cant find an approximate string matching module for cl, any recommended ones out there?
2014-05-01T03:28:02Z quazi: im trying to implement something similar to ido-mode
2014-05-01T03:28:03Z quazi: l
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2014-05-01T03:35:18Z quazi: i guess i need to rip off ido mode huh
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2014-05-01T03:50:12Z beach: I could use some help timing a function on different platforms (other than SBCL on x86-64).  I would especially appreciate results on Allegro and LispWorks.  Here are the instructions: http://metamodular.com/instructions.text
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2014-05-01T03:50:33Z beach: It will only take a few minutes of your time.
2014-05-01T03:51:24Z beach: I am writing a paper, so if you give me your full name in your email, I can acknowledge your help in the paper.
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2014-05-01T05:11:05Z beach: pjb: Could you run my timing problem in CCL, please?
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2014-05-01T05:14:59Z pjb: beach: will do.
2014-05-01T05:15:36Z beach: Thanks!
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2014-05-01T05:32:56Z beach: pjb: LispOS update: I am gathering information on writing an OS for PC compatibles.  In particular, I an contemplating how to write system code (device drivers, etc) in Lisp.  The plan would then be to run the LispOS in a virtualizer/emulator such as QEMU.
2014-05-01T05:33:24Z beach: s/an/am/
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2014-05-01T05:37:58Z joga: wasn't movitz something like that?
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2014-05-01T05:56:00Z beach: joga: Movitz runs without any other OS, that's right.
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2014-05-01T05:57:11Z kanru`: Xach: is it possible to get a short description of a system without loading it?
2014-05-01T05:57:34Z beach: joga: But pjb and myself have ideas for an advanced multi-user OS with new methods for sharing objects.
2014-05-01T05:57:56Z joga: beach, ok
2014-05-01T05:59:32Z beach: joga: Check out http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/lispos.html if you are interested.
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2014-05-01T06:16:58Z H4ns: orr, channel topic changes now require ops?
2014-05-01T06:17:08Z H4ns: can this be changed back?
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2014-05-01T06:18:28Z Bike: think it was a spam thing
2014-05-01T06:19:02Z H4ns: fair enough, but that seems to be over anyway
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2014-05-01T06:48:32Z p_l: +t was added long ago, I have no idea by whom
2014-05-01T06:48:53Z H4ns: can you remove it, please?
2014-05-01T06:49:02Z ChanServ has set mode +o p_l
2014-05-01T06:49:40Z p_l has set mode -t
2014-05-01T06:49:46Z H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://paste.lisp.org/new>. |Contact op if you can't speak| New: drakma 1.3.9, cl-launch 4.0.3, cl-ppcre 2.0.7, hunchentoot  1.2.26, flexi-streams 1.0.10
2014-05-01T06:49:49Z H4ns: thanks!
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2014-05-01T06:53:38Z beach: Hmm, I thought my x86-64 Ubuntu GNU/Linux would be able to execute 32-bit binaries, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
2014-05-01T06:55:06Z H4ns: beach: i run 32 bit binaries on 64 bit ec2 instances, but i had to install some support libraries.  did you?
2014-05-01T06:55:24Z beach: No.  I guess that must be the problem.
2014-05-01T06:55:25Z p_l: beach: verify that you have all necessary libs
2014-05-01T06:55:30Z beach: Yeah.
2014-05-01T06:55:46Z p_l: ldd or ldd32 will help if it's something linked directly, only experiments will help if it manually calls linker
2014-05-01T06:56:08Z beach: OK, thanks.
2014-05-01T06:56:28Z Krystof: if it's a recentish ubuntu it will have multiarch
2014-05-01T06:56:28Z p_l: you might also end up with issues due to library search paths sometimes
2014-05-01T06:56:36Z p_l: (GTK was annoying in that)
2014-05-01T06:56:43Z Krystof: so you do things like apt-get install libfoo:i386
2014-05-01T06:57:14Z beach: I see.  Thanks.
2014-05-01T06:57:32Z Krystof: though the details of that currently escape me
2014-05-01T06:57:50Z beach: Maybe I won't need to execute that binary after all.  We'll see.
2014-05-01T06:58:19Z Krystof: :-) that's always the easier solutiong
2014-05-01T06:58:20Z Krystof: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MultiArch
2014-05-01T06:58:44Z beach: I was trying to execute LispWorks personal edition for my performance test above.  But if someone with access to LispWorks would do it for me, that would be much easier :)
2014-05-01T06:59:42Z beach: Krystof: Thanks for the link.  I'll find it in the logs when I need it.
2014-05-01T07:00:49Z beach: So if anyone here has access to a commercial implementation such as Allegro or LispWorks, and if that person would be willing to run a short performance test, please let me know.
2014-05-01T07:01:22Z Krystof: beach: one issue with your benchmark: 1000000000 is not a fixnum on 32-bit platforms
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2014-05-01T07:01:39Z beach: Darn!
2014-05-01T07:01:42Z beach: OK.
2014-05-01T07:01:49Z Krystof: you might be benchmarking bignum arithmetic as well as clos reader dispatch
2014-05-01T07:01:53Z beach: Maybe a nested loop would work.
2014-05-01T07:01:56Z Krystof: yes
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2014-05-01T07:03:43Z Krystof: with a factor of 100 fewer iterations, it took 1.59 seconds on my Beaglebone Black with SBCL/ARM :_)
2014-05-01T07:04:36Z beach: Thanks.
2014-05-01T07:04:42Z beach: I fixed the instructions.
2014-05-01T07:05:21Z beach: Krystof: I might not use that particular data point, because of the relative immaturity of the platform. :)
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2014-05-01T07:06:05Z Bike: wouldn't it be better to ask for the performance test on the allegro mailing list? it doesn't seem popular round here
2014-05-01T07:06:26Z beach: Bike: Yes, I might have to do that.
2014-05-01T07:07:02Z H4ns: i'll post results by email in a minute
2014-05-01T07:07:17Z beach: H4ns: Great!  Thanks.
2014-05-01T07:07:20Z H4ns: ; real time  9.987451 sec (99.95%)
2014-05-01T07:07:29Z H4ns: (on a mbp 2.2 ghz i7
2014-05-01T07:07:30Z H4ns: )
2014-05-01T07:07:48Z beach: What implementation?
2014-05-01T07:08:19Z H4ns: allegro cl 9.0
2014-05-01T07:08:31Z beach: Oh, nice!  What is mbp?
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2014-05-01T07:08:46Z H4ns: macbook pro.  i sent the details by email
2014-05-01T07:08:55Z beach: Excellent!  Thanks!
2014-05-01T07:10:42Z beach: H4ns: Got it!  Thanks again!
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2014-05-01T07:16:58Z hitecnologys: Does anyone have a link to that "Stupid Stock Exchange" thing from February's Berlin Lisp meetup? I've seem to lost it and now can't find it anywhere. Googling didn't help much as I don't remember exact repository name nor its author nickname.
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2014-05-01T07:18:04Z H4ns: stefan kamphausen
2014-05-01T07:18:18Z beach: H4ns: Is that a 64-bit processor/OS/implementation?
2014-05-01T07:18:30Z H4ns: beach: all of the three, yes.
2014-05-01T07:18:35Z beach: Thanks!
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2014-05-01T07:19:27Z hitecnologys: H4ns: found it, thanks.
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2014-05-01T07:21:59Z oleo: maptuple-n
2014-05-01T07:22:09Z oleo: best i found......
2014-05-01T07:23:29Z oleo: ups
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2014-05-01T08:05:06Z beach: Krystof: In a case like my test (function x is called with arguments of a single class), does SBCL still use table lookup, or do you implement the optimization indicated in the paper on PCL?  Also, is there any locking involved?
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2014-05-01T08:05:39Z beach: H4ns: Do you happen to know whether Allegro uses PCL or some other system for generic dispatch?
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2014-05-01T08:10:46Z Bike: http://franz.com/support/documentation/9.0/doc/implementation.htm#clos-and-mop-2 hmmmmm
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2014-05-01T08:11:40Z beach: Bike: Interesting.  Thanks!
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2014-05-01T08:13:51Z beach: Bike: I find it interesting that they do not consider PCL to be an implementation of CLOS.
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2014-05-01T08:15:03Z splittist: beach: You might find this historical note interesting http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/oop/clos/pcl/0.html
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2014-05-01T08:16:08Z beach: splittist: Definitely!  Thanks!
2014-05-01T08:16:42Z JuanDaugherty: beach, because LOOPS not CLOS?
2014-05-01T08:17:26Z Bike: beach: having tried reading the old PCL (probably from the CMU archive there) i'm inclined to agree with them
2014-05-01T08:17:35Z beach: JuanDaugherty: Not sure what you are suggesting.
2014-05-01T08:18:02Z JuanDaugherty: ? indicates a query
2014-05-01T08:18:13Z Bike: no, PCL tried to implement CLOS, not LOOPS
2014-05-01T08:18:20Z JuanDaugherty: and not a rhetorical one in this case
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2014-05-01T08:18:56Z beach: JuanDaugherty: PCL was the initial more-or-less portable implementation of CLOS written by the people who designed CLOS.
2014-05-01T08:19:24Z beach: Bike: Are you saying that old PCL was incomplete in some ways?
2014-05-01T08:19:24Z JuanDaugherty: why wasn't it PCC then?
2014-05-01T08:19:33Z Bike: more or less portable indeed, they were serious about the need for machine jmp
2014-05-01T08:19:42Z Bike: JuanDaugherty: because life is fickle
2014-05-01T08:19:47Z JuanDaugherty: :)
2014-05-01T08:20:03Z Bike: beach: yes. i can see on that linked page that defgeneric didn't support :method, which is more user-visible than i thought
2014-05-01T08:20:21Z beach: Bike: I see.
2014-05-01T08:20:48Z Bike: of course, that makes sense, given that it was an experimental implementation of a protocol they were making up as they went, yeah? :P
2014-05-01T08:20:50Z splittist: It might be interesting to compare the July and September versions there. A work in progress, in any case.
2014-05-01T08:20:54Z JuanDaugherty thought LOOPS was a thing not just a name
2014-05-01T08:21:06Z Bike: JuanDaugherty: it was a thing, the xerox LOOPS object system
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2014-05-01T08:21:53Z Bike: if you want to be more confused, you could remember that the implementation of the 'loop' macro in sbcl and ccl (i think) is called 'xerox loop', but obviously doesn't have shit to do with objects
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2014-05-01T08:23:48Z JuanDaugherty: a lack of certitude is also not the same as confusion
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2014-05-01T08:24:35Z JuanDaugherty: in 2014 it's kina moot AFAIC
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2014-05-01T08:25:39Z splittist: Well, in a few more years, once CL has bedded down, it might be time to start thinking about standardising an extensible LOOP again...
2014-05-01T08:26:45Z JuanDaugherty: anybody know if there's anything more recent like clpvm?
2014-05-01T08:27:14Z JuanDaugherty: (i.e. using pvm/mpi)
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2014-05-01T08:27:52Z JuanDaugherty: i thought CL specs were an endless activity
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2014-05-01T08:28:41Z JuanDaugherty: you know as far as people born in the 20th century are concerned
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2014-05-01T08:44:30Z Krystof: beach: for a one-class reader, we actually implement multiple different possible optimizations
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2014-05-01T08:45:08Z beach: Krystof: Hmm, OK.
2014-05-01T08:45:46Z Krystof: in your test as I ran it, I think it knows that it's a function that's been called with exactly one class
2014-05-01T08:46:01Z beach: Wow, OK.
2014-05-01T08:46:06Z Krystof: so it implements a specialized discriminating function which tests if the argument is of the same class it's already seen
2014-05-01T08:46:15Z beach: I see, yes.
2014-05-01T08:46:18Z Krystof: and if so, runs the cached effective method (which in this case is probably just a fixnum)
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2014-05-01T08:46:45Z beach: Any locking involved?
2014-05-01T08:47:04Z Krystof: in your test as run, not substantial
2014-05-01T08:47:11Z Krystof: probably one lock taken the first time the gf is called
2014-05-01T08:47:28Z beach: Krystof: Thanks.
2014-05-01T08:47:30Z Krystof: there would be locks to take on cache misses, but that only happens once in your test
2014-05-01T08:47:44Z beach: I undrstand.
2014-05-01T08:47:49Z beach: *understand
2014-05-01T08:47:57Z Krystof: you can get some understanding on what SBCL's PCL does by inspecting the generic function (look at the DFUN-STATE slot)
2014-05-01T08:48:16Z Krystof: and also the sbcl internals manual chapter http://www.sbcl.org/sbcl-internals/Discriminating-Functions.html#Discriminating-Functions
2014-05-01T08:49:43Z beach: Great!  Thanks for the hints.  I tried DISASSEMBLE, but it was not easy for me to understand what I was looking at.
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2014-05-01T08:54:40Z Krystof: right, there are usually several layers of closures and indirection and it's hard to chase them unless you already know the answer :)
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2014-05-01T08:58:51Z beach: Sounds accurate, yes.
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2014-05-01T09:04:25Z antonv: how to invoke restart in ABCL repl?
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2014-05-01T09:07:34Z antonv: aha, :cont N
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2014-05-01T09:15:37Z JuanDaugherty: seems odd that hunchentoot talks about not being able to run on port 80 as non-root when every other web server I can think of can
2014-05-01T09:17:27Z mood: They shouldn't be able to. Port 80 is a privileged port, which can normally only be used by root. Nginx and the likes normally start as root, take the port, and then drop down to another user.
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2014-05-01T09:18:59Z JuanDaugherty: guess makes sense given the fact that ht is more of a lisp pkg than a web srvr
2014-05-01T09:20:53Z JuanDaugherty: can't recall how cl-http handled that
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2014-05-01T09:26:11Z H4ns: JuanDaugherty: hu?
2014-05-01T09:26:34Z JuanDaugherty: what is your question?
2014-05-01T09:27:02Z H4ns: JuanDaugherty: if you ignored everything that is connected to unix, low-numbered ports and servers before, then it may be odd to see the hunchentoot documentation talk about it, true.
2014-05-01T09:27:39Z JuanDaugherty: right, to my way of thinking what web servers defacto do should be the norm for what any does
2014-05-01T09:28:00Z JuanDaugherty: but as stated, ht isn't really a "full" web server
2014-05-01T09:28:09Z H4ns: aha
2014-05-01T09:28:40Z H4ns: well, there is nothing that prevents you from packaging a lisp and hunchentoot into a some distribution tarball, run it as root and have a "full" web server.
2014-05-01T09:29:02Z JuanDaugherty: or running behind a real web server
2014-05-01T09:29:13Z H4ns: "real", whatever
2014-05-01T09:30:18Z JuanDaugherty: also I don't doubt the same thing others do in the form he points to in Yaws will work
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2014-05-01T09:47:44Z pjb: JuanDaugherty: for example, as Huron, the Hunchentoot web server: http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=tree&p=public/lep&h=fc9fc5f7fdb9433868c1f5c7f079e43bffd19842&hb=9a00fa5632e63e0edc1f43c1f66cef22cde09091&f=services/huron
2014-05-01T09:48:32Z JuanDaugherty: i c, thx!
2014-05-01T09:49:14Z pjb: After Apache, Comanche, Cherokee, Hiawatha, Mongoose, Wakanda, …
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2014-05-01T09:50:02Z JuanDaugherty: filed that under FP/LISP/PKGS/A-L prolly will never find it :)
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2014-05-01T09:53:58Z beach: pjb: Is your version of CCL 32 or 64 bit?
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2014-05-01T09:56:50Z beach: pjb: If 32, then you probably need the updated instructions with a nested loop so that no bignum arithmetic will be required.
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2014-05-01T12:21:33Z oleo: morning
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2014-05-01T13:00:07Z tomterl: hi - If I wanted to play with GUI building (linux, but OS agnostic is fine), what would be the (quicklisp available) library to use -- cliki is somewhat inconclusive...
2014-05-01T13:00:17Z stassats: commonqt
2014-05-01T13:06:18Z tomterl: stassats: really for playing around with concepts?
2014-05-01T13:06:56Z stassats: i'm not sure i understand that remark
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2014-05-01T13:10:13Z tomterl: stassats: last time I used QT was a couple of years ago professionaly, programming C++; My goal this time isn't so much getting a functional gui, but building one in CL - I hoped a more purely lisp based solution was available
2014-05-01T13:10:59Z stassats: there are some mostly lisp guis, but  nothing to write home about
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2014-05-01T13:13:06Z oleo: tomterl: next to qt is mcclim maybe and ltk
2014-05-01T13:13:27Z stassats: friends don't let friends use mcclim
2014-05-01T13:14:05Z tomterl: ltk looked nice, but unmaintained
2014-05-01T13:14:24Z H4ns: tomterl: what do you mean by "unmaintained"?  does it not work?
2014-05-01T13:14:28Z rszeno: what you mean unmaintained?
2014-05-01T13:14:44Z tomterl: "looked" unmaintained
2014-05-01T13:15:00Z tomterl: :)
2014-05-01T13:15:27Z H4ns: tomterl: the author cares about bugs, but there only so many.  it is not a very pure lisp solution to guis, though.
2014-05-01T13:16:27Z tomterl: I didn't try anything, as I said, cliki has an abundandace of choices, but nothing that suggested itself as 'the way to go' for me -- but I figured asking here could put me in a viable direction
2014-05-01T13:16:31Z stassats: H4ns: have you seen yesterday's discussion about yason:with-output-to-string* not being particularly useful?
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2014-05-01T13:16:43Z H4ns: stassats: no?
2014-05-01T13:17:08Z H4ns: tomterl: there is no "way to go", but only a few opinions.
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2014-05-01T13:17:11Z stassats: it binds *json-output* to a stream, but it's not exported
2014-05-01T13:17:40Z H4ns: stassats: it is meant to be used together with the stream encoding functions (only)
2014-05-01T13:18:07Z H4ns: stassats: the stream encoding functions and the functional serializers don't interact very well, sadly.
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2014-05-01T13:18:22Z H4ns: stassats: i'd say it is badly designed and documented.
2014-05-01T13:18:27Z H4ns: oops, i wrote it myself :D
2014-05-01T13:18:47Z stassats: but (yason:with-output-to-string* () (yason:encode "a" yason::*json-output*))  seems to work
2014-05-01T13:19:21Z H4ns: stassats: sure.  but why bother?  you can use (with-output-to-string (s) (yason:encode "a" s))
2014-05-01T13:19:38Z H4ns: or am i missing something?
2014-05-01T13:19:40Z stassats: that's what i told to whomever was asking
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2014-05-01T13:20:02Z stassats: but, yason:with-output-to-string* is just confusing by its presence
2014-05-01T13:20:28Z H4ns: yes.  it is confusing because it belongs into the streaming encoder package, which is not properly separated from the rest of yason.
2014-05-01T13:20:43Z stassats: couldn't yason::*json-output* be used as the default stream, and bound to *standard-output* by default?
2014-05-01T13:21:10Z stassats: or even, to a synonym stream of *standard-output*
2014-05-01T13:21:19Z H4ns: i'll have a look, hold on.
2014-05-01T13:21:57Z stassats: then (yason:with-output-to-string* () (yason:encode "a")) will automagically work
2014-05-01T13:22:36Z H4ns: the thing is:  the streaming encoder uses a different stream class for its output which takes care of putting the proper punctuation in.
2014-05-01T13:23:23Z H4ns: so it is really only useful and used when stream encoding, but not when calling yason:encode directly, as it might put unwanted punctuation into the output
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2014-05-01T13:23:54Z H4ns: i'm not saying that it won't ever work, but i have not given it enough thought to just make the suggested change.
2014-05-01T13:25:01Z H4ns: the other question that someone had was why (yason:with-output-to-string* () (yason:with-object () (yason:with-object-element ("blah") (yason:encode "a")))) would not work.  maybe your change would just magically make it work, too :)
2014-05-01T13:25:27Z stassats: i see, so the change will also require things like ENCODE to output to the stream differently
2014-05-01T13:25:40Z stassats: maybe fetching the underlying stream, if it's a json-output-stream
2014-05-01T13:25:43Z stassats: does it buffer?
2014-05-01T13:26:17Z H4ns: what do you mean by "it"?
2014-05-01T13:26:22Z stassats: json-output-stream
2014-05-01T13:26:48Z H4ns: no, it just inserts punctuation and indentation.
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2014-05-01T13:27:20Z H4ns: i wanted to have a streaming encoder that could be used for arbitrarily large structures.
2014-05-01T13:27:43Z stassats: so, mixing both may lead to intended results
2014-05-01T13:27:43Z stassats:  
2014-05-01T13:27:53Z H4ns: unintended
2014-05-01T13:27:58Z H4ns: ?
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2014-05-01T13:28:18Z stassats: that's what i said, but json-output-stream ate "un"
2014-05-01T13:28:25Z H4ns: *g*
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2014-05-01T13:28:52Z H4ns: correct.  the documentation is not explicit enough about it, and it does not clearly divide the two operational modes.
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2014-05-01T13:58:43Z Xach: dim: yes
2014-05-01T13:58:52Z Xach: kanru`: via google perhaps
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2014-05-01T14:26:56Z Xach: kanru`: or quickdocs.org
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2014-05-01T15:08:50Z kanru`: Xach: oh, I mean from quicklisp or asdf... hmm
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2014-05-01T15:12:15Z Xach: kanru`: not possible yet
2014-05-01T15:12:40Z Xach: kanru`: there is a description property of a system definition, but it can involve a lot of work to get the definition loaded sometimes.
2014-05-01T15:15:02Z kanru`: Xach: could you pre-process it and ship the description alone with quicklisp? It sems you need to load the system when building a distribution already
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2014-05-01T15:15:56Z kanru` want to bulid a package interface like emacs' `list-packages' for ql
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2014-05-01T15:27:33Z pjb: kanru`: like (quick-list-systems)
2014-05-01T15:27:56Z pjb: kanru`: in (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.tools.quicklisp)
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2014-05-01T15:33:04Z kanru`: pjb: couldn't find this system
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2014-05-01T15:36:52Z kanru`: but I find your source
2014-05-01T15:37:00Z pjb: Good.
2014-05-01T15:37:42Z pjb: kanru`: it's in quicklisp though: com.informatimago-20140316-git
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2014-05-01T15:42:01Z kanru`: M-x list-packages is more interactive, in a GUI sense.. it allows one to mark the system you want to install and/or delete and execute in one go.
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2014-05-01T16:06:39Z pjb: kanru`: You're free to write interactive software in Common Lisp.
2014-05-01T16:09:30Z beach: pjb: Thank you very much for all the tests!
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2014-05-01T16:10:58Z beach: pjb: There are some surprising differences between different SBCLs.  I may ask you about this some time later.
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2014-05-01T16:20:27Z pjb: beach: there are on  different computers, with different processors and systems (and different versions, since they're not all up to date).
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2014-05-01T16:26:44Z Xach: kanru`: i'd like to do something like that.
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2014-05-01T16:26:57Z Xach: kanru`: one issue is inconsistency in description. the quality and style vary very much.
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2014-05-01T16:41:26Z kanru`: Xach: because no one was looking at the descriptions. Probably only quickdocs displays that information.
2014-05-01T16:43:24Z kanru`: Xach: if we make it useful and readily available then it will get better
2014-05-01T16:43:34Z kanru`: I hope ;)
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2014-05-01T16:45:42Z Xach: i'm not so sure
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2014-05-01T17:02:57Z ivan-kanis: I would like to map my backspace key to \#Rubout in Open Genera. I haven't figured out how to do it...
2014-05-01T17:03:29Z j_king: i just hope the ipython kernel I'm working on turns out. it'd be nice to have a share-able graphical dev environment.
2014-05-01T17:03:58Z j_king: the protocol bakes in exceptions but there might be ways to walk around it.
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2014-05-01T17:14:47Z ivan-kanis: Where can I find information about Open Genera beside the online help? Google is very unhelpful...
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2014-05-01T17:26:07Z JuanDaugherty: isn't that long dead?
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2014-05-01T17:29:29Z nyef: It's not dead, it's sleeping!
2014-05-01T17:30:19Z nyef: (Quick, someone hijack this theme towards the Lovecraft mythos before someone else follows up with the obligatory dead-parrot-sketch quotes.)
2014-05-01T17:30:48Z brown`: ivan-kanis: OpenGenera is talking to your X server, right?  I think you just want to use xmodmap.  That is, it's probably an X keyboard input issue.
2014-05-01T17:31:29Z ivan-kanis: brown`: hmm, I could mess with xmodmap but it would screw up xterm
2014-05-01T17:31:59Z ivan-kanis: brown`: it reminds me of the Delete and Backspace key issue
2014-05-01T17:32:21Z ivan-kanis: brown`: in xterm
2014-05-01T17:33:26Z edgar-rft: some Open Genera docs are here: http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/symbolics/
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2014-05-01T17:36:50Z JuanDaugherty: parrots live a loooong time
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2014-05-01T19:11:12Z brown`: ivan-kanis: On a PC keyboard, when you type the big key called "backspace", it should generate ASCII delete, which is equivalent to rubout.
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2014-05-01T19:13:20Z brown`: In your xterm window at a bash shell prompt, typing C-V and then the big "backspace" key should result in ^? appearing on your screen.
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2014-05-01T19:30:31Z Xach: C-v is a pretty old convention
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2014-05-01T19:33:15Z jasom: brown`: I've seen C-h generated in some terminals, I think.
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2014-05-01T19:36:28Z brown`: Yes, but if you are running X, you can use xmodmap to make that key generate delete (127) instead of backspace (8).  It's the right thing to do.  Emacs, for instantce, really wants that key to be delete.  C-H gets you help.
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2014-05-01T19:43:18Z dim: pjb: thanks a lot for the clisp idea: https://github.com/dimitri/kids
2014-05-01T19:43:39Z dim: even if clisp on the RPi crashes randomly, it doesn't happen that often that we couldn't have fun today ;-)
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2014-05-01T19:46:31Z axion: what are my options for a data structure requiring thousands of key value and returning SORTED results as quickly as possible?
2014-05-01T19:47:12Z dim: trees
2014-05-01T19:47:23Z dim: you have so many kind of them
2014-05-01T19:47:30Z axion: such as a btree?
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2014-05-01T19:48:09Z dim: btree, red-black tree, then you have tries, heaps, fibonnaci heaps, and plenty of others
2014-05-01T19:48:23Z dim: what kind of data? strings? complex structures? numbers?
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2014-05-01T19:49:01Z dim: also, you could use PostgreSQL here and just select foo, bar from table order by <whatever here>;, that could be simpler
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2014-05-01T19:49:32Z dim: (and allows to then filter only a part of the data, scale to millions of rows, etc etc)
2014-05-01T19:49:33Z axion: yes i am currently using postgresql, but this is for a real-time trading engine. speed could be improved
2014-05-01T19:49:40Z axion: strings, ints, doubles primarily
2014-05-01T19:50:13Z dim: how many rows are you retrieving now in what timing?
2014-05-01T19:50:18Z dim: what is your goal?
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2014-05-01T19:50:31Z jasom: axion: tries are a good choice; there are a lot of ways to tune them for different data sets
2014-05-01T19:50:33Z dim: you have plenty of optimisation options with PostgreSQL (that's my day job, by the way)
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2014-05-01T19:51:03Z jasom: axion: you will want the nodes to be outside of the GC's domain though, most likely
2014-05-01T19:51:13Z jasom: though millions of rows might be okay
2014-05-01T19:51:21Z dim: it could be that you're missing the proper index for the right query plan, or need to rewrite it a little, or use the COPY streaming API, or something...
2014-05-01T19:51:21Z axion: well i was thinking something more in-memory. as far as i know postgresql doesnt support mysql's memory tables equivalency. most of the overhead is disk based
2014-05-01T19:51:22Z jasom: billions would be more of a GC issue
2014-05-01T19:51:56Z dim: axion: PostgreSQL relies on the OS cache (e.g. linux), the same way as Varnish does
2014-05-01T19:52:26Z dim: I think lots of https://www.varnish-cache.org/trac/wiki/ArchitectNotes applies to the PostgreSQL design
2014-05-01T19:52:38Z axion: i've never heard of varnish. i'll check it out
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2014-05-01T19:53:31Z p_l: dim: ... um, afaik Varnish does the complete opposite from Postgres
2014-05-01T19:53:37Z dim: basically what I mean is that the OS nowadays are very good about optimising disk and ram IO patterns
2014-05-01T19:53:40Z p_l: which works for varnish, because it's a cache
2014-05-01T19:53:41Z jasom: dim: I thoght varnish took the opposite approach; everything in memory, let swap handle it.
2014-05-01T19:53:56Z p_l: dim: Database I/O patterns don't fit mmap()
2014-05-01T19:54:02Z dim: the reason why PostgreSQL doesn't offer in-memory-only tables is that mostly your OS knows better how to handle that
2014-05-01T19:54:06Z p_l: especially not when you need transactional stuff
2014-05-01T19:54:33Z jasom: dim: "very good" is different from "specifically optimized for my use-case" though; sometimes by an order of magnitude or more, if your use-case is highly amenable to specific optimizations
2014-05-01T19:54:34Z p_l: dim: it's been only recently that Postgres even uses mmap() call at all, and it's for IPC
2014-05-01T19:54:43Z dim: jasom: right
2014-05-01T19:55:02Z p_l: Postgres simply wouldn't work with Varnish approach to i/o
2014-05-01T19:55:04Z dim: in the case of axion what I mean to say is that it could be that a very simple optimisation of the queries is all he needs
2014-05-01T19:55:28Z dim: I've worked with 12 to 15ms queries that were to slow, within a day they were running under 3ms, and it was then ok
2014-05-01T19:55:33Z p_l: axion: anyway, start by checking if you can increase PostgreSQL buffers
2014-05-01T19:55:37Z axion: any generic optimizations off the top of your head?
2014-05-01T19:55:48Z p_l: axion: also, learn to use EXPLAIN
2014-05-01T19:55:49Z dim: no need to re-architect the application and learn about btree/tries/heaps just to optimise a query
2014-05-01T19:56:03Z p_l: and ANALYZE, I guess
2014-05-01T19:56:09Z p_l: (which runs the tuning for queries)
2014-05-01T19:56:13Z p_l: but EXPLAIN does a lot
2014-05-01T19:56:14Z dim: axion: log in to #postgresql, you will receive *great* help there about that parts
2014-05-01T19:56:26Z p_l: pgadmin3 got nice interface to EXPLAIN with visualization
2014-05-01T19:56:29Z dim: should you still need to learn complex data structures in lisp, I guess we will still be around ;-)
2014-05-01T19:56:45Z dim: for explain, just use http://explain.depesz.com/
2014-05-01T19:57:05Z axion: great, thank you
2014-05-01T19:57:30Z dim: p_l: about the varnish memory/io architecture, I think I misunderstood the text alltogether then, what I tool from it was "let the OS manage", you're saying there's much more to that
2014-05-01T19:57:33Z axion: i also need to perform operations on all the rows btw
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2014-05-01T19:57:59Z dim: select is kind of quite powerful, chances are you can transform them on the fly within the query
2014-05-01T19:58:25Z axion: such as taking all rows with the same price column, and adding 2 other columns of theirs together, returning the total price and total of the other 2 columns quite frequently
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2014-05-01T19:58:30Z p_l: dim: Varnish is mostly unstructured read I/O of blobs contained in normal files. As such it really fits to simply reuse the same system the filesystem uses
2014-05-01T19:58:31Z dim: then it's down to network trafic (bandwidth and latency) and scaling opportunities (that are often easier in the application servers side of things)
2014-05-01T19:58:34Z axion: all numeric
2014-05-01T19:58:46Z axion: still think sql is the way to go here?
2014-05-01T19:58:57Z axion: i must do these calcs frequently
2014-05-01T19:59:03Z dim: where are the two other columns coming from?
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2014-05-01T19:59:10Z axion: the same row
2014-05-01T19:59:17Z dim: so that's quite easy, ok
2014-05-01T19:59:29Z p_l: axion: remember that SQL operates on sets, not looping over table rows. you can also use local functions, too
2014-05-01T19:59:30Z dim: can you query stale data at all?
2014-05-01T19:59:49Z dim waits until the question is about window functions ;-)
2014-05-01T20:00:07Z axion: p_l: can you explain a bit on that?
2014-05-01T20:01:27Z p_l: axion: a common misconception about SQL databases is "looping over table rows" (sometimes elevated to the use of cursors, which SUCK)
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2014-05-01T20:02:18Z dim: cursors have their use, certainly implementing a WHERE clause isn't one
2014-05-01T20:02:25Z p_l: instead, remember that you operate on whole sets
2014-05-01T20:02:36Z p_l: dim: Even then, cursors should be mostly avoided
2014-05-01T20:02:49Z p_l: Or you get an usability plan that involves "reboot the cluster every few days"
2014-05-01T20:02:57Z dim: refcursors can allow returning several independant resultsets
2014-05-01T20:03:08Z dim: or allow to keep the resultset in memory server side
2014-05-01T20:03:17Z dim: sometimes it's useful to implement complex UPDATE schemes
2014-05-01T20:03:27Z dim: so I would say cursors are an advanced topic
2014-05-01T20:03:33Z axion: i have been dealing with databases for years, but dont dive too deep into the details. lately i've just been using pomo dao
2014-05-01T20:03:36Z p_l: dim: temporary tables in in-memory tablespace can work for several of those as well
2014-05-01T20:03:47Z dim: that's true
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2014-05-01T20:04:10Z dim: dao are great when they don't mislead you into not doing SQL anymore
2014-05-01T20:04:11Z p_l: dim: but I guess that might depend on fully transactional DDL, which is less common
2014-05-01T20:05:23Z dim: pomo dao is very good, just remember that the object you care about is whatever the current query returns, it's very seldom a relation defined in your database model, that's only when you implement very basic CRUD
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2014-05-01T20:05:52Z axion: right
2014-05-01T20:06:16Z axion: i dislike certain things about dao, though
2014-05-01T20:06:42Z dim: I've been using it as a query-result-to-clos helper only
2014-05-01T20:06:57Z dim: implementing the smarts in the SQL
2014-05-01T20:07:01Z axion: such as when you just want to SELECT-DAO, but with a ORDER-BY or LIMIT, you essentially have to use QUERY anyway
2014-05-01T20:08:00Z dim: yeah, use (pomo:query "sql here" (:dao object :single)) or something
2014-05-01T20:08:32Z dim: select-dao IIRC is only useful for basic CRUD
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2014-05-01T20:09:04Z axion: query-dao 'table (order-by (select ...)) isnt that ideal
2014-05-01T20:09:14Z axion: little redundant
2014-05-01T20:09:23Z p_l: trying to fit resultsets into classes is quite counterproductive
2014-05-01T20:09:23Z axion: maybe i havent fully explored the options
2014-05-01T20:09:30Z dim: oh I still write my SQL myself, not using s-sql yet
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2014-05-01T20:09:42Z p_l: I think only DataMapper in Ruby managed to do it right, from the stuff I used so far
2014-05-01T20:09:48Z dim: I'm yet to write interesting apps where the SQL must be generated by the app
2014-05-01T20:09:57Z dim: it's been all static up to now
2014-05-01T20:10:31Z dim: p_l: I just define CLOS classes that maps resultsets when I want to use clos accessors and stuff on the result
2014-05-01T20:10:55Z dim: then in those cases I usually find it a good idea to define the query as a PL/SQL or PL/pgSQL function
2014-05-01T20:11:09Z dim: and then it's all about maintaining an API
2014-05-01T20:11:27Z p_l: yeah
2014-05-01T20:12:30Z dim: is there a walk-directory like facility in uiop?
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2014-05-01T20:13:00Z axion: i will admit, i used to use my own in-memory databases, albeit on a smaller scale, until pomo made my life easier a year ago
2014-05-01T20:13:14Z axion: pomo has requainted myself with sql after some time
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2014-05-01T20:14:18Z p_l: axion: remember that a jury-rigged database might not have certain stability or data safety related features :)
2014-05-01T20:14:48Z axion: agreed and know all too well
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2014-05-01T20:17:22Z axion: the related pcl chapter was a nice learning experience and very verbose though
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2014-05-01T20:17:33Z dim: what about manardb tho, it looked interesting to me?
2014-05-01T20:18:57Z axion: idk, i skipped it due to not being maintained
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2014-05-01T20:22:16Z dim: oh ok
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2014-05-01T20:28:58Z jasom: is manrdb not maintained?  It just got a shout-out from an article linked on HN too...
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2014-05-01T20:31:40Z jasom wonders if MSI is using it at all
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2014-05-01T20:33:25Z dim: I'm forcing myself to use uiop pathnames and os facilities now, just because, and I find it way better than what I'm used to report here
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2014-05-01T20:34:52Z jasom: Thanks to Faré for splitting that out after realizing that ASDF had to solve a lot of problems that other programs need to solve too.
2014-05-01T20:35:22Z jasom: (or perhaps it was just so he could use it in xcvb; either way it's a huge boon to doing OSish stuff portably)
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2014-05-01T20:39:38Z nicdev saw a post about manaradb on reddit also
2014-05-01T20:41:42Z dim: switching from iolib to uiop isn't that bad, actually
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2014-05-01T20:43:03Z jasom: dim: I still need iolib for certain things (like building unix pipelines).
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2014-05-01T20:44:18Z dim: yeah I'm not going fancy here, and failed to build iolib on wheezy with the given SBCL (1.0.57), and for *this* project it's important enough that it runs as-is on about bare debian
2014-05-01T20:45:20Z dim: no make-symlink in uiop, run-program ln -s I guess it is
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2014-05-01T20:45:37Z jasom considered writing a script to generate a single .c file from libfixposix.  Then you could easilly include it with asdf
2014-05-01T20:45:56Z dim: the way they do it with SQLite or abouts then?
2014-05-01T20:46:15Z jasom: nevermind, lfp uses a configure script
2014-05-01T20:46:38Z jasom: autoconf, the enemy of simple build processes
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2014-05-01T20:48:51Z axion: jasom: my google suggest last commit was 5 years ago, unless i'm looking at the wrong one
2014-05-01T20:49:10Z jasom: axion: both the github, and the git repo linked from the MSI page say the same
2014-05-01T20:49:50Z jasom: axion: but it might still be maintained.
2014-05-01T20:50:10Z jasom: It's also possible that nobody has reported any bugs or needed any new features in 5 years
2014-05-01T20:50:33Z jasom: particularly if the only user is MSI and they use it only in something that hasn't changed significantly in 5 years
2014-05-01T20:50:53Z axion: right hehe
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2014-05-01T21:00:44Z dim: should we commit a message every couple of months on project we still consider we are maintaining but where nothing did happen, ala -- MARK?
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2014-05-01T21:04:30Z nicdev: someone mentioned this fork https://github.com/danlentz/manardb which looks like it was updated more recently
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2014-05-01T21:40:45Z dim: btw if you want a nice story to tell about CL in 2014, I've received a couple of emails asking me why-o-why pgloader v3 is so much faster than pgloader v2 (was python then) ;-)
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2014-05-01T22:24:12Z jasom: dim: nice; I did a straight port of some PDF parsing stuff to CL (since I didn't want to figure out how to deliver standalone windows applications based off of python) and got a 2x speedup just of the parsing, even more once you talk about doing text-layout stuff on top of that.
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2014-05-02T01:42:40Z ahungry: hi all, how do I avoid interfering with other standard readtable syntax if I want to do a (set-macro-character #\|, do I need to do a (setq *custom-readtable* (copy-readtable nil)) and define it in that one somehow?
2014-05-02T01:48:05Z Bike: named-readtables is the thing i think
2014-05-02T01:48:44Z ahungry: thanks Bike
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2014-05-02T02:18:33Z loke: dim: Did they ask you "why" because they somehow prefered it to be slow, and made out of python?
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2014-05-02T02:32:36Z ahungry: Hmm probably looking over something obvious, using the examples listed on http://common-lisp.net/project/named-readtables/#what_are_named-readtables?, but when using
2014-05-02T02:32:48Z ahungry: (defreadtable glyphs:syntax
2014-05-02T02:32:58Z ahungry: I get a syntax is an undefined symbol
2014-05-02T02:33:27Z ahungry: do I have to define the symbol before doing the call on it
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2014-05-02T02:35:34Z ahungry: ah adding to the export in my defpackage fixed
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2014-05-02T02:53:21Z quazimodo: I'm confused, if we want a writer method like (setf (some-class some-slot) value) then why is it defined like (defmethod (setf some-slot) (value object) (setf (slot-value object some-slot) value)) ?
2014-05-02T02:53:54Z quazimodo: specifically, the order of these arges (defmethod (setf some-slot) (value object) <-
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2014-05-02T02:55:30Z quazimodo: so... esoteric, unintuitive
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2014-05-02T02:56:43Z Bike: what's unintuitive about it
2014-05-02T02:57:09Z Bike: also, it lets you do things like (defwhatever (setf whatever) (new-value foo bar &rest baz) ...)
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2014-05-02T02:59:23Z quazimodo: Bike: the order that it's in, but I suppose I'm looking at it wrongly. Perhaps it would have made more sense to me if there was a function like defsetf or defsetfm and it specified the value first. It didn't click that doing (defun or defmethod (setf whatever) changes the behavior so much
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2014-05-02T03:00:35Z Bike: defsetf actually has its "store variables" in an entirely different list, syntactically, which is obviously impossible for defun and defmethod
2014-05-02T03:01:26Z Bike: it doesn't really 'change any behavior', though yes i can see how you'd be confused by the order of arguments-to-place and the new value switching, since (setf (foo ...) ...) is obviously not a function call to begin with
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2014-05-02T03:04:16Z quazimodo: so i guess my next question is (bear in mind my total noobiness), can we (defmethod (setf whatever) (val etc) :after ?
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2014-05-02T03:05:09Z Bike: if the generic has an appropriate method combination, yes. (if it's an :accessor or :writer from defclass, this is the case)
2014-05-02T03:05:28Z Bike: well except that the :after goes before the lambda list, doesn't it
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2014-05-02T03:10:10Z quazimodo: Bike: <- learning
2014-05-02T03:11:38Z quazimodo: orite :D
2014-05-02T03:12:08Z quazimodo: I suppose now I need to figure out if it's even a good idea to place an after hook on a setf of a slot.
2014-05-02T03:12:31Z quazimodo: It's probably unexpected behaviour isnt it
2014-05-02T03:12:55Z drmeister: C++ stl::map's are giving my garbage collector trouble.
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2014-05-02T03:13:22Z drmeister: I'm ripping them out and replacing them all with hash tables.   I understand hash tables.
2014-05-02T03:13:53Z Bike: quazimodo: should be totally legal and workable. may be stylistic objections
2014-05-02T03:15:42Z quazimodo: Bike: yeah I think I'll leave accessors be, instead define methods on the object that implement any sort of logic other than accessing
2014-05-02T03:16:06Z quazimodo: It's hard to think in terms of generics, so used to messaging
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2014-05-02T03:38:04Z loke: quazimodo: You can define the generic methods first, before you even think of about the underlying classes
2014-05-02T03:41:36Z ahungry: Hmm, for my glyphs package I'm working on (https://github.com/ahungry/glyphs) which syntax is nicer, moving it to use named-readtables to avoid clobbering the common readtable
2014-05-02T03:41:40Z ahungry: previously i was using
2014-05-02T03:42:05Z ahungry: (ƒ blub ["(dog|cat)"] → {"animal"}), would then give the ability to say (blub "I love dogs") => "I love animals"
2014-05-02T03:42:16Z ahungry: actually not previously, currently with named-readtables
2014-05-02T03:42:19Z ahungry: previously I had it with
2014-05-02T03:42:29Z ahungry: (ƒ blub2 ~"(dog|cat)"~ → |"animal"|)
2014-05-02T03:42:53Z Bike: no λ? for shame
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2014-05-02T03:44:25Z ahungry: thats for lambda, the f is for function :)
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2014-05-02T03:55:59Z quazimodo: loke: yeah I just find myself lost in how general (generic) it all is, especially when it comes to arguments
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2014-05-02T04:08:11Z quazimodo: anyone here run cl-charms in emacs?
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2014-05-02T04:09:08Z loke: quazimodo: Have you looked at the MOP yet?
2014-05-02T04:09:17Z loke: what is cl-charms?
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2014-05-02T04:10:04Z quazimodo: ncurses bindings for CL, problem is that I can't really execute my code in emacs slime repl
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2014-05-02T04:11:59Z knoch: hey lisp dudes, what do yall recommend for learning lisp, sicp or something else?
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2014-05-02T04:13:01Z loke: knob: PCL
2014-05-02T04:13:09Z pillton: knoch: Practical Common Lisp, a nice chair, some good music and a nice bottle of scotch.
2014-05-02T04:13:09Z knob: PCL!
2014-05-02T04:13:14Z loke: knob: What langages do you know now?
2014-05-02T04:13:27Z loke: I mean knoch
2014-05-02T04:13:31Z loke: Sorry about that knob
2014-05-02T04:13:37Z knoch: haha
2014-05-02T04:13:38Z knob: Haha I know.... sorry =)  couldn't resist
2014-05-02T04:13:42Z knoch: mostly c
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2014-05-02T04:13:55Z loke: knoch: Then PCL should be good for you
2014-05-02T04:14:33Z knoch: alright i'll check it out
2014-05-02T04:14:35Z loke: knoch: The only issue I have with PCL is that it was written before Quicklisp was released, which means it doesn't mention it. Quicklisp is probably the most important tool you need, apart from the Lisp environment itself
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2014-05-02T04:15:29Z knoch: ok cool, hadn't heard of quicklisp
2014-05-02T04:15:46Z loke: http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/
2014-05-02T04:15:47Z pillton: loke: I wonder if Peter would write a second edition?
2014-05-02T04:15:55Z loke: pillton: I wish he would
2014-05-02T04:16:05Z quazimodo: knoch: yeah quicklisp for packages (dont use asdf), slime mode in emacs and practical common lisp
2014-05-02T04:16:32Z loke: At least a revised edition that goes into more details on how to use Quicklisp and SLIME, as well as some explanations how to set up a useful environment on Linux and Widnows
2014-05-02T04:16:55Z loke: Perhaps an addendum to PCL. THe book itself is good enough :-)
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2014-05-02T04:17:57Z knoch: I've only really poked around with scheme
2014-05-02T04:18:12Z knoch: Any particular reason yall prefer clisp?
2014-05-02T04:18:14Z loke: Common Lisp is a much more pragmatic language.
2014-05-02T04:18:44Z loke: knoch: I don't prefer clisp. Clisp is a specific implementation of Common Lisp. There are a lot of them. My own personal favourite is SBCL
2014-05-02T04:19:06Z loke: Now, I have to go to luch. I'll be back in an hour or so. I'll be happy to assist then, unless other people answer all your questions.
2014-05-02T04:19:30Z knoch: cool, much appreciated
2014-05-02T04:20:29Z quazimodo: loke: looking at mop
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2014-05-02T04:21:53Z quazimodo: how do I access the integer that (floor ...) returns?
2014-05-02T04:22:12Z quazimodo: (floor 2/3) returs 0, 2/3 but I've no idea how to get at the 0 :/
2014-05-02T04:22:39Z pillton: (multiple-value-bind (a b) (floor 2/3) (print (list a b)))
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2014-05-02T04:22:57Z quazimodo: pillton: that's the most direct way??
2014-05-02T04:23:14Z pillton: (let ((A (floor 2/3))) a)
2014-05-02T04:23:49Z nialo: (you just get the first return value of things by default, you don't need to do anything special)
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2014-05-02T04:47:49Z ampharmex: <[BNC]ampharmex> given 7 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 5 6 7 3 4 2 4 5 8 7 = 476 Goal: find out what mathematical operators (minus, multiply, divide, add) satisfy that solution (476)
2014-05-02T04:47:57Z ampharmex: <[BNC]ampharmex> Order of operation is variable.
2014-05-02T04:48:11Z ampharmex: http://pastebin.com/qLxn1Nt9
2014-05-02T04:48:27Z ampharmex: How would one go about a dynamic programming approach to this problem in lisp?
2014-05-02T04:48:46Z ampharmex: This is example output: http://pastebin.com/b48asy7r
2014-05-02T04:49:16Z ampharmex: Also note the code is the usual dynamic programming solution, with a range of [-500, 1000].
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2014-05-02T05:10:27Z pjb: quazimodo: have your code run a xterm where you can use ncurses.
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2014-05-02T05:15:28Z ahungry: arrggghhh, giong nuts here
2014-05-02T05:15:30Z ahungry: USE-PACKAGE #<PACKAGE "GLYPHS"> causes name-conflicts in
2014-05-02T05:15:33Z ahungry: #<PACKAGE "COMMON-LISP-USER"> between the following symbols:                                                                    GLYPHS:ΛΛ, COMMON-LISP-USER::ΛΛ
2014-05-02T05:16:00Z ahungry: i have a macro in glyphs, (defmacro λλ ...
2014-05-02T05:16:05Z H4ns: ahungry: create your own package instead of messing around in cl-user
2014-05-02T05:16:08Z ahungry: and I :export λλ
2014-05-02T05:16:17Z H4ns: ahungry: cl-user is for people who do not want to use packages.
2014-05-02T05:16:21Z ahungry: yea, I have it set up with the quicklisp install set up
2014-05-02T05:16:35Z ahungry: but this is wth a (ql:quickload :glyphs) and then a (use-package :glyphs)
2014-05-02T05:16:36Z ampharmex: Anyone?
2014-05-02T05:16:48Z pjb: :export "λλ"
2014-05-02T05:16:53Z pjb: or even: :export "ΛΛ"
2014-05-02T05:16:57Z ahungry: http://github.com/ahungry/glyphs
2014-05-02T05:16:59Z H4ns: ampharmex: do you have a lisp question?
2014-05-02T05:17:15Z pjb: or if you insist: :export #:λλ
2014-05-02T05:17:23Z ampharmex: <ampharmex> <[BNC]ampharmex> given 7 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 5 6 7 3 4 2 4 5 8 7 = 476 Goal: find out what mathematical operators (minus, multiply, divide, add) satisfy that solution (476)
2014-05-02T05:17:23Z ampharmex: <ampharmex> <[BNC]ampharmex> Order of operation is variable.
2014-05-02T05:17:23Z ampharmex: <ampharmex> http://pastebin.com/qLxn1Nt9
2014-05-02T05:17:23Z ampharmex: <ampharmex> How would one go about a dynamic programming approach to this problem in lisp?
2014-05-02T05:17:23Z ampharmex: <ampharmex> This is example output: http://pastebin.com/b48asy7r
2014-05-02T05:17:24Z ampharmex: <ampharmex> Also note the code is the usual dynamic programming solution, with a range of [-500, 1000].
2014-05-02T05:17:43Z H4ns: ampharmex: i read that.  now, do you have a lisp question?
2014-05-02T05:17:46Z pjb: H4ns: the lisp question is: please implement this is Common Lisp.
2014-05-02T05:17:54Z H4ns: pjb: ahh!
2014-05-02T05:17:58Z ampharmex: Yes.
2014-05-02T05:18:06Z ahungry: this wasn't ever an issue when using the global read table, only the named-readtables are giving me trouble
2014-05-02T05:18:24Z pjb: ahungry: using symbols in export lists is ALWAYS an issue!
2014-05-02T05:18:28Z ahungry: maybe its because i'm attempting to set the (in-readtable glyphs:syntax) inside a defmacro
2014-05-02T05:18:44Z ampharmex: H4ns, I have written a solution in Haskell. Just curious to see a lisp implementation.
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2014-05-02T05:19:05Z H4ns: ampharmex: write one.  if you have lisp questions, feel free to ask.
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2014-05-02T05:25:07Z ahungry: does a defreadtable always need to be wrapped in an eval-when?  if I have my (defreadtable ...) and then after its defined, an (in-readtable that:table) i get a does not exist error
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2014-05-02T05:30:17Z pjb: If you want to use it in the same file, probably yes.
2014-05-02T05:30:55Z pjb: Notably at compilation time…  At compilation time, the compiler avoid executing things!
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2014-05-02T05:32:47Z quazimodo: hey pjb if you wanted to use an external library that can't really be run from inside emacs (such as the one i'm using now, ncurses), how would you go about developing? I'm having lots of trouble with stack tracing and exceptions, debugging etc since I have to execute in a terminal
2014-05-02T05:33:10Z pjb: quazimodo: see http://paste.lisp.org/+31UK
2014-05-02T05:33:28Z quazimodo: side question, how'd you find that so fast??
2014-05-02T05:33:46Z quazimodo: oh.
2014-05-02T05:33:50Z pjb: I already had that programmed seven years ago!
2014-05-02T05:34:00Z pjb: I just took the time to extract it as an example.
2014-05-02T05:34:17Z pjb: Now the trick is to hook ncurses to the xterm-io stream.
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2014-05-02T05:35:16Z pjb: quazimodo: an alternative (more general solution), would be run your cl implementation and your program in the application environment (xterm, gui, whatever), and to launch a swank server in it.  Then you can slime-connect to it from emacs, to go on developping and debugging.
2014-05-02T05:35:21Z quazimodo: <- sbcl, so I'll have to port it I suppose
2014-05-02T05:35:30Z pjb: Use the alternative then.
2014-05-02T05:35:43Z quazimodo: hrm that's something I never thought of
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2014-05-02T05:36:25Z quazimodo: that's just the general case for all lisp software, isn't it
2014-05-02T05:36:26Z pjb: But otherwise, it may be a good idea to implement make-xterm-io-stream on several implementation, since it lets you open new xterms by lisp applications.  This can really come handy.
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2014-05-02T05:48:12Z ahungry: does a package have to be amazing to be submitted to quicklisp?  Now that I fixed my global readtable butchery, would something like my glyphs package be received?
2014-05-02T05:48:48Z Bike: i think the main criterion is that it's not another half-baked utility library
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2014-05-02T05:52:31Z Bike: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/657 random pick
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2014-05-02T05:56:57Z ahungry: Hm, well, this aims to change syntax a bit although ultimately its just shorthand for (cond statements and cl-ppcre functions in the end
2014-05-02T05:57:17Z ahungry: (ƒ factorial 0 → 1 α → (* α (factorial (1- α)))) => factorial for instance
2014-05-02T05:57:51Z ahungry: has macros for parenscript also which I found nice for setting up things like key mappings in some of the html5 games I wrote in CL/parenscript
2014-05-02T05:58:26Z loke: re
2014-05-02T05:59:04Z ahungry: (ƒƒ key-action 33 → (move-unit "left") 34 → (move-unit "right")), that type of thing
2014-05-02T05:59:29Z Bike: ahungry: by 'utility library' i mean something that implements factorial, flatten, that kinda crud that's in alexandria
2014-05-02T05:59:30Z ahungry: at some point i need to add pattern matching for it
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2014-05-02T06:00:12Z ahungry: ah, yea this does not implement anything other than some unique syntax which makes for some concise readable code in other projects i do
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2014-05-02T06:01:06Z ahungry: here is a good example in my game of it in use
2014-05-02T06:01:08Z ahungry: https://github.com/ahungry/pseudo/blob/master/items.lisp#L246
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2014-05-02T06:01:54Z ahungry: well, headin to bed, night all
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2014-05-02T06:14:04Z rk[1]: :)
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2014-05-02T07:09:40Z dim: jasom: well way faster here is 25 to 30 times faster
2014-05-02T07:10:03Z dim: pjb: in case you didn't see it, thanks much for the clisp keyboard/console-window advices, I've put them to good use already
2014-05-02T07:10:32Z quazimodo: pjb: I've got the swank server working, (though quicklisp gave me a 2011 version). I'm guessing I want to keep my main loop alive, and to stick the call to start a swank server in a handler-case ?
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2014-05-02T07:11:00Z Bike: depends on the swank communication style, you could just give it its own thread
2014-05-02T07:11:17Z quazimodo: as in (defun main () (some loop (handler-case (do the main stuff) (condition (swank))))
2014-05-02T07:11:37Z quazimodo: Bike: i don't know how to keep my program from exiting when swank's persisting in its own thread.
2014-05-02T07:11:41Z Bike: oh, i see
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2014-05-02T07:12:00Z Bike: can you not just (some loop (do the main stuff)) for that?
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2014-05-02T07:12:57Z quazimodo: Bike: wherever, I don't mind where the loop is... I just dont know how to get sbcl to enter a debugger on or in swank, however it's defined
2014-05-02T07:13:25Z quazimodo: as in if my main program errors, how doe i get sbcl to wait for swank server to be connected to, and deal with it
2014-05-02T07:13:37Z Bike: i'm not sure, sorry.
2014-05-02T07:14:50Z quazimodo: I'm suspecing that sbcl's --script option turns of debugger
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2014-05-02T07:15:30Z quazimodo: I'm thinking i need to get sbcl to launch a swank server, or delegate to one, as it's default action for entering the debugger
2014-05-02T07:15:44Z Bike: --script implies --disable-debugger
2014-05-02T07:16:33Z quazimodo: Bike: yeah it's a shebang script. Maybe I need to remove that and compile it to a binary
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2014-05-02T07:47:35Z dim: buildapp! ;-)
2014-05-02T07:49:14Z pjb: quazimodo: you should slime-connect before encountering a bug.
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2014-05-02T07:51:24Z pjb: Just run: (let ((swank::*loopback-interface* "AAA.BBB.CCC.DDD") (port 4005)) (swank:create-server :port port)) ; at the start of your program.
2014-05-02T07:51:46Z pjb: s/AAA.BBB.CCC.DDD/${yourIP}/
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2014-05-02T07:53:16Z quazimodo: sure. I'm trying to learn these things in the slime docs, I donte know what that function does
2014-05-02T07:53:25Z quazimodo: not exactly, anywoy
2014-05-02T07:53:56Z pjb: This is how you create a swank server to which M-x slime-connect may connect to.
2014-05-02T07:54:12Z Bike: regular loopback no good?
2014-05-02T07:54:27Z pjb: not if you wan to connect from another host.
2014-05-02T07:54:46Z pjb: quazimodo: You'd know if if you'd googled for swank server and read the howto.
2014-05-02T07:54:52Z pjb: http://www.cliki.net/slime-howto
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2014-05-02T07:56:21Z quazimodo: Oh i have indeed read that. My problem is that I'm not sure how to get my lisp to connect the debugger to the swank servers IO
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2014-05-02T07:57:19Z quazimodo: so that, say a condition occurs, it will pause and wait for something to connect and fix it
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2014-05-02T08:04:02Z quazimodo: pjb: what would you do here?
2014-05-02T08:05:36Z quazimodo: run the forms in your main loop within a handler-case, try to resolve it nicely and ask the user to connect via swank and clean it up?
2014-05-02T08:07:25Z quazimodo: argh I have to go. I suppose I'll just think about this and see what my brain gives me. cya guys :)
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2014-05-02T08:11:52Z dim: extra thread?
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2014-05-02T09:20:10Z dim: I think I'm going to put http://lisptips.com/post/12364147536/a-concatenated-stream-trick into good use today ;-)
2014-05-02T09:23:02Z dim: oh noe make-concatenated-stream only deals with input-streams
2014-05-02T09:23:21Z H4ns: does make-broadcast-stream not work as well?
2014-05-02T09:23:51Z dim: trying
2014-05-02T09:24:34Z dim: (need to compile an app on a VM to test)
2014-05-02T09:24:53Z H4ns: we lispers have a repl to try things out in :)
2014-05-02T09:25:37Z dim: works, thanks much
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2014-05-02T09:25:59Z dim: well in that case the REPL sits on a MacOSX and I'm using debian specific commands in the tool
2014-05-02T09:26:36Z dim: so I somehow need to run the thing in the debian vm, and as I want to ensure a smooth experience to non-lisp hackers running the CLI, that's what I restrict myself to be using here, when on the squeeze vm
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2014-05-02T09:39:28Z JuanDaugherty thought a) boxen were cheap these days and b) the point of running vms on a largeish one was instant context switch
2014-05-02T09:41:40Z dim: buildapp isn't instant, the M-x shell in the vm feels the same as the local shell though
2014-05-02T09:42:42Z JuanDaugherty: I meant like xen, vmware type vms dunno from 'buildapp'
2014-05-02T09:43:05Z dim: vagrant is what I'm using nowadays
2014-05-02T09:43:16Z JuanDaugherty: k
2014-05-02T09:43:26Z dim: buildapp is a CL tool built around save-lisp-image-and-die
2014-05-02T09:47:11Z dim: wow. (RENAME-FILE #P"/tmp/ql-to-deb/anaphora-0.9.4" "cl-anaphora") --> couldn't rename /tmp/ql-to-deb/anaphora-0.9.4 to /tmp/ql-to-deb/cl-anaphora.4: Directory not empty
2014-05-02T09:47:23Z dim: where is the .4 coming from here?!
2014-05-02T09:47:30Z dim: oh ok
2014-05-02T09:47:44Z dim: pathnames defaults and all the jazz would be my guess
2014-05-02T09:47:54Z jdz: and file type
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2014-05-02T09:48:15Z H4ns: kind of bold trying to use rename-file to rename a directory
2014-05-02T09:48:57Z dim: true enough
2014-05-02T09:49:00Z dim: what would you use?
2014-05-02T09:49:29Z dim: (on the other hand ISTM a directory is just another kind of file in Unix)
2014-05-02T09:49:46Z H4ns: i'd use some posix or implementation specific function.
2014-05-02T09:49:52Z H4ns: dim: "haha"
2014-05-02T09:50:50Z dim: well that's another run-command then
2014-05-02T09:50:56Z JuanDaugherty: rly
2014-05-02T09:51:02Z H4ns: dim: the thing is: common lisp does not think that files and directories are the same.  but it also thinks that a file needs to have an "extension"
2014-05-02T09:51:25Z dim: I'm kind of learning that the hard way yes
2014-05-02T09:51:28Z JuanDaugherty: like when Indiana Jones just shoots that guy
2014-05-02T09:51:47Z H4ns: dim: if you're dealing with files where you have no control over the names used, you're bound to end up in tears if you try using cl's pathname and file name handling functions.
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2014-05-02T09:53:32Z dim: I'm also using uiop pathnames and filesystem features to stay away from tears
2014-05-02T09:54:07Z dim: I've been using cl-fad in the past but didn't like much the approach pathname-as-directory etc, and couldn't find a way to move up and down the directories easily
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2014-05-02T10:23:16Z samebchase: What should I give :element-type in make-array to create a bit-vector ?
2014-05-02T10:23:32Z pjb: 'bit
2014-05-02T10:24:42Z samebchase: cool thanks
2014-05-02T10:25:01Z samebchase: can you link me to the clhs page which lists out all valid CL types?
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2014-05-02T10:28:01Z samebchase: found it: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/04_bc.htm
2014-05-02T10:28:08Z hitecnologys: How does one use timezones in local-time? I've tried reading docs but I still can't figure out how to specify them.
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2014-05-02T10:36:11Z H4ns: hitecnologys: most functions have a timezone argument, and there is *default-timezone*.  what is unclear to you?
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2014-05-02T10:40:11Z hitecnologys: H4ns: it's unclear to me how do I specify custom timezones like 0325 or 0300 or whatever. Is this possible?
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2014-05-02T10:42:45Z H4ns: hitecnologys: it should be - have a look into the source.  there is a %make-simple-timezone function that you could study.
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2014-05-02T10:46:54Z hitecnologys: H4ns: I see. Thanks for help.
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2014-05-02T10:52:18Z hitecnologys: Huh. Looks like local-time operates on zoneinfo files. So, to define timezone I need to either write one myself or use those located in /usr/share/zoneinfo. %make-simple-timezone doesn't actually make real timezone but makes UTC+0000 timezone with a different name and, optionally, offset which, however, only signals that zone has offset.
2014-05-02T10:52:44Z H4ns: yes.
2014-05-02T10:53:19Z hitecnologys: Nice.
2014-05-02T10:53:57Z hitecnologys: Then I can just plug standard zoneinfo files in and enjoy my timezones.
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2014-05-02T11:37:50Z szh_: Hi, is there a convention for the order in which dependent functions are written in functional programming? i.e. if i have a function called function1, which calls function2 and function3 also, should i place the function2 and function3 after function1 or before it in my script?
2014-05-02T11:38:47Z stassats: as long as it's called when everything is defined, it doesn't matter much
2014-05-02T11:38:50Z hitecnologys: szh_: I don't think there's is a strict convetion. Just place them in a logical, reasonable way and you're good.
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2014-05-02T11:40:05Z hitecnologys: s/convetion/convention/
2014-05-02T11:40:13Z hitecnologys: Ah, crap.
2014-05-02T11:40:56Z hitecnologys: Whatever, you got the idea.
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2014-05-02T11:44:47Z szh_: Oh. I personally prefer to write them top-down, with the most dependent first, so I guess thats cool.
2014-05-02T11:44:52Z szh_: Thanks a lot! :D
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2014-05-02T11:46:15Z jdz: so, anybody up for hanging out tomorrow or the day after in Paris?
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2014-05-02T11:54:03Z jdz: ugh, everybody's gone...
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2014-05-02T12:02:08Z pjb: jdz: there have been netsplits.
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2014-05-02T12:04:00Z jdz: nah, i'm sure everybody's intentionally ignoring me
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2014-05-02T12:11:31Z stassats: or Paris is just too far away
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2014-05-02T12:14:32Z splittist: jdz: what did you have in mind?
2014-05-02T12:15:30Z jdz: splittist: i have no idea, really. if i don't find anybody, i'll most probably just go over to Eiffel tower...
2014-05-02T12:15:43Z Krystof: I only get there Sunday evening, sorry
2014-05-02T12:15:45Z jdz: i arrive a bit past 9
2014-05-02T12:16:04Z splittist: jdz: you won't be alone if you do (go to the tower)
2014-05-02T12:16:30Z stassats: ... in a queue
2014-05-02T12:16:37Z jdz: right
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2014-05-02T12:18:27Z jdz: towards the evening might be a good time to have some [more] beer
2014-05-02T12:18:35Z splittist: jdz: I'm already in Paris, so could meet up. I'm actually not far from the Eiffel Tower, so you could factor that in. I have a function tonight and don't know when I'll surface Saturday, but it probably won't be early, I'm afraid...
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2014-05-02T12:24:21Z jdz wonders how many #els2014 events are there on twitter
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2014-05-02T12:26:33Z fe[nl]ix: \\\\\\\\\\\\\\
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2014-05-02T12:35:00Z jdz: splittist: not exactly sure what would be the best way to get in contact; my email is smuglispweenie on the google mail service
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2014-05-02T12:40:22Z splittist: jdz: Better than that facetweet all the unruly youths seem to affect these days. I'll email you. Worth keeping this in logs in case others wish to join.
2014-05-02T12:43:58Z Shinmera: Out of curiosity; I don't suppose there's any lispers from Zürich in here?
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2014-05-02T12:47:16Z Krystof: occasionally
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2014-05-02T12:59:37Z oleo: morning
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2014-05-02T13:03:32Z hitecnologys: How accurate are SBCL timers?
2014-05-02T13:04:14Z H4ns: verz
2014-05-02T13:04:16Z H4ns: very
2014-05-02T13:04:26Z oleo: depends on voltage!
2014-05-02T13:04:27Z oleo: lol
2014-05-02T13:04:56Z hitecnologys: I see.
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2014-05-02T13:07:10Z hitecnologys: I did some tests and accuracy is somewhere around hundreds of microseconds on averagely loaded system. Just wanted to make sure I didn't screw up. Did I?
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2014-05-02T13:09:47Z |3b|: probably also depends on OS and OS configuration
2014-05-02T13:10:36Z hitecnologys: Yeah, I think so.
2014-05-02T13:11:49Z hitecnologys: But my previous question also rises another question. How accurate is LOCAL-TIME:NOW? Can I realy on it when doing benchmarks?
2014-05-02T13:12:14Z H4ns: hitecnologys: i'd use get-internal-run-time
2014-05-02T13:12:43Z H4ns: (if you're interested in run time, of course)
2014-05-02T13:12:47Z hitecnologys: H4ns: aha, that's what I do now. Just checking if there are different ways to get precise timings.
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2014-05-02T13:13:15Z jdz: hitecnologys: you'll most probably get wrong results if you rely on microsecond precision
2014-05-02T13:13:30Z H4ns: hitecnologys: i'd not expect local-time to be precise in the sub-second range.  local-time is for dealing with wallclock time.
2014-05-02T13:13:33Z hitecnologys: jdz: I see.
2014-05-02T13:13:55Z Shinmera: Given that local-time was made for dealing with the mess that is date time, I would not rely on it for timing.
2014-05-02T13:14:22Z hitecnologys: Well, I'd stick to G-I-R-T then.
2014-05-02T13:14:30Z hitecnologys: I'll*
2014-05-02T13:18:10Z hitecnologys: What does SBCL profiler use to measure time?
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2014-05-02T14:01:45Z lorefyr: Hello #Lisp
2014-05-02T14:01:52Z easye: ELO
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2014-05-02T14:05:35Z ahungry: hi
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2014-05-02T14:09:59Z ahungry: style question, in my glyphs package i'm working on, I have it set up so you can do (ƒ cats-not-dogs ~"(dog)"~ → "cat"), which would then become (cats-not-dogs "I love dogs") => "I love cats"
2014-05-02T14:10:16Z ahungry: sorry, actually
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2014-05-02T14:10:27Z ahungry: style question, in my glyphs package i'm working on, I have it set up so you can do (ƒ cats-not-dogs ~"(dog)"~ → |"cat"|), which would then become (cats-not-dogs "I love dogs") => "I love cats"
2014-05-02T14:10:43Z ahungry: would ["(dog)"] → {"cat"} be better though?
2014-05-02T14:10:48Z ahungry: than using ~ and | as read macros
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2014-05-02T14:22:28Z lorefyr: Are there any books you would recommend for an unexperienced programmer that knows no lisp yet to get started?
2014-05-02T14:22:45Z hitecnologys: minion: tell lorefyr about pcl
2014-05-02T14:22:45Z minion: lorefyr: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2014-05-02T14:22:48Z Xach: lorefyr: practical common lisp, paradigms of ai programming
2014-05-02T14:23:23Z ahungry: yea pcl is awesome
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2014-05-02T14:25:09Z lorefyr: Nice, thank you. Also, I heard that learning lisp enhances view on programming in particular. But besides theory, are there "common" practical problems or programs that are good to solve with lisp rather than C++ or Java for example?
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2014-05-02T14:26:29Z H4ns: lorefyr: lisp is good for exploratory development
2014-05-02T14:27:01Z hitecnologys: And incremental one too.
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2014-05-02T14:27:38Z H4ns: lorefyr: it has great support for experimentation on the repl, which is something that you don't really get with statically typed languages.  lisp's support for that is also better than with most other contemporary dynamic languages.
2014-05-02T14:27:46Z splittist: If you don't know what you're building or how to build it, use lisp. If you do know what you're building and how to build it, you're just a meat-based text-editor, so stop that, and use lisp to do something better. (:
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2014-05-02T14:29:23Z lorefyr: That sounds quite interesting
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2014-05-02T14:31:44Z hitecnologys: And from my experience in C++ development, I can tell you that you don't easily make C++ behave like you want it to.
2014-05-02T14:33:00Z loke_: hitecnologys: It is, however, possible with a lot of hard work to make C++ behave somewhat like what you want it to, if you squint your eyes a bit.
2014-05-02T14:33:12Z loke_: Boost is a good example of such project
2014-05-02T14:33:45Z lorefyr: So basically, Lisp is rather borderless compared to object oriented languages?
2014-05-02T14:33:53Z loke_: lorefyr: Pretty much
2014-05-02T14:34:00Z hitecnologys: loke_: indeed.
2014-05-02T14:34:34Z lorefyr: What is Boost?
2014-05-02T14:34:42Z loke_: lorefyr: that said, "object oriented languages" doesn't really such much. Lisp does, after all, have a very complete object system. Much more complete in fact than most languages.
2014-05-02T14:34:47Z Viaken: lorefyr: The Little Schemer is fairly nice, too, although that's more oriented toward Scheme.
2014-05-02T14:34:47Z hitecnologys: lorefyr: a library for C++.
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2014-05-02T14:35:08Z hitecnologys: lorefyr: it adds hell lots of stuff, I can't even summarize it all.
2014-05-02T14:36:04Z lorefyr: Oh ok, I think I heard of it, is boost the library project that wanted to get integrated in C++ standard library for quite a while?
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2014-05-02T14:36:16Z loke_: lorefyr: I'm sure they wanted to
2014-05-02T14:36:19Z H4ns: boost is also off-topic in #lisp
2014-05-02T14:36:24Z loke_: lorefyr: they are quite full of themselves
2014-05-02T14:36:28Z hitecnologys: loke_: I heard that C++11 did change many things so programming in C++ may be easier now that it was when I was writing in it.
2014-05-02T14:37:17Z loke_: hitecnologys: Depends on what you mean by "easy". They seem to be taking the long way around in their attempt to reimplement Lisp
2014-05-02T14:37:17Z hitecnologys: H4ns: indeed, sorry for that.
2014-05-02T14:37:30Z loke_: In the mean time, Lisp is right here. Working.
2014-05-02T14:37:52Z hitecnologys: loke_: aha, C++ is moving towards Lisp, I guess.
2014-05-02T14:38:05Z loke_: hitecnologys: Indeed.
2014-05-02T14:38:27Z Viaken: That whole "bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of Common Lisp" thing, eh?
2014-05-02T14:38:30Z lorefyr: Ok, sorry for Off-Topic. Back to Lisp, so Lisp is able to do "object oriented" stuff as well?
2014-05-02T14:38:33Z loke_: Viaken: yes :-)
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2014-05-02T14:38:50Z hitecnologys: lorefyr: CL has one of the most advanced OO systems.
2014-05-02T14:38:59Z loke_: lorefyr: Yes. It does it by focusing on generic functions rather than objects (which is a more flexible concept)
2014-05-02T14:39:16Z loke_: lorefyr: What object systems do you know already?
2014-05-02T14:39:41Z hitecnologys: lorefyr: only Smalltalk can, probably, compete with it.
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2014-05-02T14:40:36Z hitecnologys: (however, this is arguable statement)
2014-05-02T14:40:44Z lorefyr: I started with Java and currently I am getting started with C++
2014-05-02T14:40:53Z loke_: hitecnologys: Smalltalk doesn't have multimethods though, right?
2014-05-02T14:41:06Z hitecnologys: loke_: it does have something like multimethods.
2014-05-02T14:41:48Z hitecnologys: loke_: it focuses on passing messages, messages can be handled differently so one can try implementing multimethods.
2014-05-02T14:41:56Z loke_: lorefyr: Well, in Java you add methods to classes. Yes? Lisp is not like that. A method is a standalone thing which we call "generic function" in the Lisp world. A generic function can have zero or more methods which are chosen based on the type of the arguments.
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2014-05-02T14:43:13Z Viaken: I feel like Java has something similar, but I haven't written enough to know.
2014-05-02T14:43:26Z loke_: Viaken: It does not.
2014-05-02T14:43:28Z jdz: loke_: chosen to form the "effective method" that gets executed :)
2014-05-02T14:43:30Z hitecnologys: Viaken: it has reflection or something like that.
2014-05-02T14:43:43Z hitecnologys: Viaken: but it's not even close to generic functions.
2014-05-02T14:43:51Z loke_: jdz: I'm trying to keep it simple :-)
2014-05-02T14:44:12Z splittist: more than one might be chosen, and combined in interesting ways. And that's just the default rules. With a magic MOP you can determine how things are chosen and combined, which might /not/ be the type of the arguments. And so on (:
2014-05-02T14:44:13Z loke_: hitecnologys: you could implement something superficially similar, but it's be a bit of a mess :-)
2014-05-02T14:44:21Z Viaken: I must be mistaken. :)
2014-05-02T14:44:23Z hitecnologys: loke_: aha.
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2014-05-02T14:45:57Z loke_: hitecnologys: I guess you could define a method that takes (Object...objs) as argument and then implement a method selector based on reflecting on the arguments. I feel like throwing up just by thinging about it, but I might yet implement it just for the hell of it :-)
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2014-05-02T14:46:24Z hitecnologys: By the way, can anybody point me to a real-life example where method combination is used? I've read lots of code but I haven't seen much of those.
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2014-05-02T14:47:02Z hitecnologys: loke_: yes, one can implement this. The question is: will all the pain be worth it?
2014-05-02T14:48:21Z loke_: hitecnologys: Definitely now.
2014-05-02T14:48:22Z loke_: not.
2014-05-02T14:48:40Z loke_: hitecnologys: I considered using it once, and then decided not to. Is that close enough? :-)
2014-05-02T14:48:51Z hitecnologys: loke_: sort of.
2014-05-02T14:49:22Z loke_: Searching my quicklisp shows that mcclim uses it
2014-05-02T14:50:40Z loke_: melisp as well
2014-05-02T14:50:42Z loke_: femlisp
2014-05-02T14:51:35Z lorefyr: So in lisp you mainly invoke chains of functions instead of attaching methods to classes?
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2014-05-02T14:52:12Z hitecnologys: lorefyr: sort of.
2014-05-02T14:52:26Z lorefyr: or rather branches than chains =)
2014-05-02T14:52:34Z Xach: methods are attached to generic functions instead
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2014-05-02T14:55:15Z puchacz: hi, I see (every 'oddp nil) returns true, but I am not sure if it is by accident or by specs
2014-05-02T14:55:15Z lorefyr: ok, thanks guys for the quick overview, are there any other resources on lisp you would recommend?
2014-05-02T14:56:06Z puchacz: specs says "If the end of a sequence is reached, every returns true. Thus, every returns true if and only if every invocation of predicate returns true."
2014-05-02T14:56:18Z Xach: lorefyr: if you get stuck, ask a person for help instead of using google
2014-05-02T14:56:23Z hitecnologys: lorefyr: there's cliki.net, worth exploring.
2014-05-02T14:56:37Z puchacz: first sentence suggests my case works by specs. second makes me feel ambigious
2014-05-02T14:56:55Z puchacz: (sorry lorefyr for cutting in)
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2014-05-02T14:57:08Z Xach: puchacz: it is analagous to AND and OR
2014-05-02T14:57:23Z lorefyr: well I guess I'll hangout here more often as well =)
2014-05-02T14:57:31Z Xach: puchacz: (and) => t
2014-05-02T14:57:33Z puchacz: (and) returns true
2014-05-02T14:57:34Z lorefyr: puchacz: No problem
2014-05-02T14:57:37Z puchacz: exactly
2014-05-02T14:57:44Z puchacz: again, is it by design/specs?
2014-05-02T14:58:00Z Xach: by design
2014-05-02T14:58:20Z puchacz: ok, thanks Xach. one condition less to check in my code then
2014-05-02T15:00:06Z White_Flame: I do agree that the second sentence's IFF doesn't seem to apply here.  Since there was no invocation, the notion of "every invocation" seems ill (or recursively) defined in that context
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2014-05-02T15:12:12Z j_king: bordeaux-threads q: does the zmq socket bound in this method https://github.com/agentultra/butler/blob/master/kernel.lisp#L18 count as a local binding that may not be shared (depending on implementation)
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2014-05-02T15:20:31Z j_king: trying to understand what is implied in http://trac.common-lisp.net/bordeaux-threads/wiki/ApiDocumentation#make-threadfunctionkeyname
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2014-05-02T15:25:14Z |3b|: i think that doc is talking about special vars, so it probably doesn't apply
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2014-05-02T15:27:29Z j_king: |3b| thanks.
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2014-05-02T15:42:55Z dim: Xach: in case you're interested, https://github.com/dimitri/ql-to-deb
2014-05-02T15:43:38Z dim: also, if Common Lisp debian packagers are in this channel, opinions and help welcome on that, the goal is to make it easy to add and maintain Quicklisp releases as debian packages, piggybacking on the excellent work from Xach
2014-05-02T15:45:22Z Xach: dim: do you check my gpg signatures?
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2014-05-02T15:45:50Z dim: only the md5 as of now
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2014-05-02T15:46:36Z dim: it's version 0.3.0 tho, so I'm sure I will get to add bug fixes and features
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2014-05-02T16:37:33Z ejbs: I consistently get an error from SBCL about an attempt to dump an invalid structure when compiling a defmethod. Is this probably a bug from SBCL and should I report it somewhere? I can dump stack trace and code
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2014-05-02T16:40:06Z ejbs: I actually found the precise form where SBCL decides to jump ship
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2014-05-02T16:55:54Z Bike: do tell
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2014-05-02T16:58:06Z ejbs: Bike: Are you talking to me lol :)?
2014-05-02T16:58:10Z nicdev: ejbs: i think you got an error in this code here (< (field-value :y self) *ground-level* (not jumpingp)) as noted in http://paste.lisp.org/display/142368
2014-05-02T16:58:22Z Bike: yes, i see you took it to #sbcl though
2014-05-02T16:58:52Z ejbs: nicdev: Haha, the code isn't supposed to work like it should yet, thanks anyway
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2014-05-02T17:00:00Z ejbs: nicdev: Also yeah, I see the error
2014-05-02T17:00:09Z stassats: well, that's what causes the sbcl problem
2014-05-02T17:00:20Z stassats: anyhow, splitting this into two channels is not nice
2014-05-02T17:00:38Z Bike: yeah sorry
2014-05-02T17:04:25Z nicdev: stassats: so his code still exposes an sbcl issue? could not have caught that
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2014-05-02T17:05:18Z Bike: ideally ejbs should see a type error rather than a bizarre internal-looking error, you know?
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2014-05-02T17:20:14Z stassats: i expected that issue to be already fixed
2014-05-02T17:20:23Z stassats: but ejbs didn't disclose his sbcl version
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2014-05-02T17:20:58Z ejbs`: stassats: I did in an annotation actually (it's 1.1.5 by the way, so it may be fixed)
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2014-05-02T17:25:21Z wbooze: waaahahaha, cool random coloring in beirc soon.....
2014-05-02T17:25:52Z kuanyui: Any easy way to check if a list contains "not nil" elements? for example: '(nil nil nil nil nil "test" nil)
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2014-05-02T17:26:14Z wbooze: i wrote that today already....
2014-05-02T17:26:40Z drewc: clhs: some
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2014-05-02T17:27:06Z drewc: err ... it seems I forget how to use specbot ....
2014-05-02T17:27:15Z ejbs`: kuanyui: (some #'identity)
2014-05-02T17:27:27Z ggole: (some #identity list)
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2014-05-02T17:27:37Z stassats: (find nil list :test-not #'eql)
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2014-05-02T17:29:08Z kuanyui: Wow~ The methods I've never seen, thanks everybody~
2014-05-02T17:29:17Z drewc: kuanyui: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_everyc.htm
2014-05-02T17:30:14Z wbooze: (defun is-nil (x) (if (atom x) (not x))) (is-nil nil)
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2014-05-02T17:30:35Z stassats: huh?
2014-05-02T17:30:39Z wbooze: (mapcar #'is-nil '(blah blah))
2014-05-02T17:30:59Z wbooze: or mapcan.....
2014-05-02T17:31:08Z stassats: too much booze
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2014-05-02T17:32:21Z drewc: and two is not enough #\v's ... or in english #\u's
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2014-05-02T19:10:22Z wbooze: oh man i always conflate case with cond....
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2014-05-02T19:11:25Z Viaken: It's car and cons for me. That doesn't even make sense.
2014-05-02T19:11:40Z wbooze: ya you are used to it.....
2014-05-02T19:12:55Z wbooze: i read clhs and after some time it trickled....wait that's not what i should use.....
2014-05-02T19:13:44Z wbooze: (case color ((> 5) .......
2014-05-02T19:14:01Z wbooze: stead of (cond ((> color 5) .........
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2014-05-02T19:16:51Z stassats: (typecase color ((integer (5)))
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2014-05-02T19:18:16Z wbooze: (let ((color (random 20)))
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2014-05-02T19:18:30Z wbooze: (let ((color (random 20)))
2014-05-02T19:18:34Z wbooze: ups
2014-05-02T19:18:44Z Bicyclidine: maybe i don't want to let color random twenty
2014-05-02T19:19:11Z wbooze: (cond ((< color 5) +olivedrab+) ((and (> color 5) (< color 10)) +forest-green+)........
2014-05-02T19:19:35Z wbooze: i have to check ranges......
2014-05-02T19:19:55Z wbooze: does (typecase color ((integer (5))) do that ?
2014-05-02T19:20:05Z Bicyclidine: no, but (integer (5) (10)) will
2014-05-02T19:20:28Z wbooze: ah
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2014-05-02T19:21:11Z Bicyclidine: you could also do (< 5 color 10), the possibilities are endless
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2014-05-02T19:24:28Z nicdev not that i use it often but i find it neat to be able to do a rang
2014-05-02T19:26:51Z wbooze: alright i liked the short one (< 5 color 10) etc....
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2014-05-02T19:32:37Z wbooze: http://picpaste.com/pics/snap2-p9A2wZ1E.1399059129.png
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2014-05-02T19:48:02Z kuanyui: Curious about that is there an easy way to merge strings in a list (e.g.  '("The" "quick" "fox") => "The quick fox"  ) without dolist (or loop tools)?
2014-05-02T19:48:23Z Bicyclidine: clhs concatenate
2014-05-02T19:48:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_concat.htm
2014-05-02T19:50:45Z stassats: concatenate doesn't really concern itself with lists of strings
2014-05-02T19:50:52Z kuanyui: but input is a LIST containing strings of element.@@
2014-05-02T19:51:11Z stassats: (format t "~{~a~^ ~}" '("The" "quick" "fox"))
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2014-05-02T19:51:37Z stassats: or (format nil "~{~a~^ ~}" '("The" "quick" "fox"))
2014-05-02T19:51:44Z kuanyui: Wow...format
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2014-05-02T19:54:02Z splittist: format rocks.
2014-05-02T19:56:36Z antoszka: format is a nice programming language. Better than brainfuck or whitespace :)
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2014-05-02T19:57:46Z antoszka: But yeah, what stassats says would be the canonical list_of_strings.join(" ")
2014-05-02T19:58:02Z antoszka: unless you use some external libraries.
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2014-05-02T20:00:08Z splittist: such as uiop's strcat
2014-05-02T20:01:04Z oleo: what if i want to append (1- around other forms depending on some counter etc.... ?
2014-05-02T20:01:21Z oleo: (1- (1- (1-......(1- x)......
2014-05-02T20:01:36Z drewc: ah format .... so nice, so hard to read, and so slow ... I use it all the time.
2014-05-02T20:01:56Z oleo: and define say constant decrementers upto 10....like 2-, 3-, 4-
2014-05-02T20:02:27Z oleo: format is slow ?
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2014-05-02T20:03:07Z Bicyclidine: are you going to complain about slowness after asking how to decrement a number by ten by calling a function ten times
2014-05-02T20:03:07Z ahungry: you could always join a list of strings with reduce and concatenate
2014-05-02T20:03:11Z ahungry: if you hate format for some reason
2014-05-02T20:03:14Z ahungry: (reduce (lambda (a b) (concatenate 'string a b)) '("one" "two" "three"))
2014-05-02T20:03:40Z heddwch: Bicyclidine's last comment wins the internet for today.
2014-05-02T20:04:17Z Bicyclidine: oleo: also you could do (loop repeat x for form = form then `(1- ,form) finally (return form)) or something
2014-05-02T20:04:59Z oleo: will i need a macro ?
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2014-05-02T20:05:09Z Bicyclidine: what does that mean
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2014-05-02T20:05:15Z stassats: you'll need a "clue"
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2014-05-02T20:06:23Z ahungry: lol
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2014-05-02T20:07:34Z splittist: If anyone really cared about making their format control strings readable it would be simple enough to use something like #.(strcat "~{~:@[!~;..." ; explanatory comment /n "~3*$" ; another explanatory comment /n etc...). Or even a simple read-macro: #"..." that eats leading and trailing whitespace and line comments.
2014-05-02T20:08:08Z antoszka: :)
2014-05-02T20:08:26Z dim: or we would have a comparable-to-iterate lib for formating text, maybe
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2014-05-02T20:08:51Z Bicyclidine: or use the standard pretty printing system nobody uses
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2014-05-02T20:09:33Z antoszka: oleo: Just because you have ` and , in a form does not mean you need a macro. These are just short forms of QUASIQUOTE and UNQUOTE (which don't – for some reason – exists in CL in their long forms, but ' and QUOTE do).
2014-05-02T20:09:40Z splittist: dim: it turns out such libraries die from disuse. Format control strings are like string-based regex syntax: just good enough.
2014-05-02T20:10:08Z splittist: Bicyclidine: but pretty printing and FORMAT are intimately intermingled.
2014-05-02T20:10:08Z oleo: allright, i think i'm just too tired for it now....
2014-05-02T20:10:11Z dim: there's cl-interpol to make it easier on the regexp side of things
2014-05-02T20:10:26Z antoszka: BTW, what's the historical reason for not having UNQUOTE and QUASIQUOTE in CL?
2014-05-02T20:10:53Z Bicyclidine: splittist: i mean the stuff that format ends up using, like pprint-logical-block
2014-05-02T20:10:54Z stassats: what is the reason to have it?
2014-05-02T20:11:03Z drewc: dim: define "easy"
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2014-05-02T20:11:22Z stassats: Bicyclidine: that's only for ~<
2014-05-02T20:11:24Z dim: drewc: exactly why I said "easier" ;-)
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2014-05-02T20:11:37Z Bicyclidine: "like"!
2014-05-02T20:12:07Z drewc: dim: fair enough, touché :)
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2014-05-02T20:13:19Z antoszka: stassats: what is the reason of having both QUOTE and ', but only , and `.
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2014-05-02T20:13:53Z Bicyclidine: you couldn't implement ' as strictly a reader macro, could you?
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2014-05-02T20:14:27Z Bicyclidine: (i know there's an implementation of quote as a macro in scheme, but that doesn't cover all the constancy properties in CL)
2014-05-02T20:14:41Z stassats: ' is a reader macro
2014-05-02T20:15:17Z Bicyclidine: i meant implementing quotation semantics without touching the evaluator (aka a special operator)
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2014-05-02T20:18:41Z splittist: antoszka: you could start from http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss198_w.htm (at the end)
2014-05-02T20:20:52Z antoszka: thx
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2014-05-02T20:29:46Z antoszka: splittist: actually, the whole thing is a fun read.
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2014-05-02T20:50:34Z dim: random idea: when using buildapp (save-lisp-image-and-die) with say SBCL, you have the whole of SBCL + your application code and all its dependencies already loaded, right? so it should be possible to use that to re-compile your application next-version?
2014-05-02T20:52:06Z stassats: it's better not to
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2014-05-02T20:52:22Z dim: pgloader --upgrade /path/to/newer/sources ...
2014-05-02T20:52:43Z dim: it would (asdf:load-system ...) the new system once started, then hop to usual business
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2014-05-02T20:53:13Z dim: I wouldn't forcibly make a new binary, see, just allow users of pgloader 3.0.99 to "hot patch" it with the new code source while waiting for the new release
2014-05-02T20:53:28Z dim: is it completely stupid and doomed to fail hard?
2014-05-02T20:53:49Z stassats: it's not
2014-05-02T20:54:15Z dim: I'm quite excited by the idea, I suppose I'm far from the first one to think about it, do you know apps in the field already doing that?
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2014-05-02T20:57:25Z Fare: dim: should work, as long as none of your libraries does something that prevents upgrade, like change the signature of a gf
2014-05-02T20:57:50Z Fare: actually, even a change in package signature can be a pain, on SBCL
2014-05-02T20:57:56Z jasom: Fare: or changing the signature of any function that is called across file boundaries I think
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2014-05-02T20:58:23Z Fare: dim: back in the days, my usual modus operandi was to hot-patch cliki, because the upstream author wouldn't take my fixes.
2014-05-02T20:58:57Z Fare: jasom: only bad if the function is in the current call stack.
2014-05-02T20:59:15Z jasom: Fare: or it gets called by another thread while in the middle of a compile
2014-05-02T20:59:19Z Fare: or rather, directly called by a frame in the call stack
2014-05-02T20:59:25Z dim: I wouldn't support libs upgrade, I don't think
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2014-05-02T20:59:54Z jasom: specwise, I think you have violated a requirement just by changing it, though for practical purposes that might not matter.
2014-05-02T20:59:55Z dim: and it would controllably happen at image startup
2014-05-02T21:00:02Z dim: well with control in the application of course
2014-05-02T21:00:05Z dim: but still
2014-05-02T21:00:10Z dim: before code is in use
2014-05-02T21:00:16Z dim: it sounds rather encouraging
2014-05-02T21:00:22Z Fare: dim: asdf 3.1 has a *immutable-systems* so you may prevent recompilation of installed libraries.
2014-05-02T21:00:55Z dim: well the target is non-lisp-savvy users anyway
2014-05-02T21:01:17Z Fare: dim: will you be at ELS or ILC?
2014-05-02T21:02:11Z dim: yes
2014-05-02T21:02:18Z dim: specifically, paris
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2014-05-02T21:07:00Z Fare: dim: oh, see you in a few days, then. I'll present my talk "Why Lisp is Now an Acceptable Scripting Language".
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2014-05-02T22:17:21Z dim: turns out --self-upgrade is quite easy to code, and works
2014-05-02T22:17:24Z dim: I'm so amazed
2014-05-02T22:17:37Z dim: I guess it's called connecting the dots, as I spend my days doing that in SLIME already
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2014-05-02T22:45:18Z jasom: It is nice that lisp has quite well specified semantics for updating DEFUNs
2014-05-02T22:46:00Z stassats: that you have to make everything in NOTINLINE?
2014-05-02T22:50:58Z jasom: stassats: no you don't
2014-05-02T22:51:03Z jasom: stassats: not if you recompile entire files
2014-05-02T22:51:13Z jasom: stassats: then you just have to not make anything INLINE
2014-05-02T22:51:23Z stassats: clhs inline
2014-05-02T22:51:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_inline.htm
2014-05-02T22:51:51Z jasom: clhs 3.2.2.3
2014-05-02T22:51:51Z specbot: Semantic Constraints: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbc.htm
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2014-05-02T23:05:05Z Fare makes everything NOTINLINE in asdf precisely so that hot upgrade is manageable.
2014-05-02T23:06:13Z jasom: Fare: is that because DEFUNs might change files?
2014-05-02T23:07:09Z Fare: it;s because frames on the stack may call defun's
2014-05-02T23:07:23Z Fare: and I want to be sure which version is being called
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2014-05-02T23:07:47Z Fare: if I want the new one (usually), I need the old defun to be notinline
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2014-05-02T23:08:07Z Fare: if I want the old one, I need unintern the symbol
2014-05-02T23:08:13Z jasom: right, because you are using asdf to upgrade asdf
2014-05-02T23:08:24Z Fare: which might be a problem when it's exported / imported
2014-05-02T23:08:30Z Fare: jasom: right
2014-05-02T23:09:03Z Fare: then there are class updates
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2014-05-02T23:09:33Z Fare: and worst of all: slots the name of which has changed package
2014-05-02T23:10:05Z jasom: ouch!
2014-05-02T23:10:25Z jasom: That's not an issue, just put all slots in KEYWORD
2014-05-02T23:10:26Z jasom ducks
2014-05-02T23:10:34Z Fare: and implementations that have setf functions in a hidden symbol that depends on the symbol's name
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2014-05-02T23:10:59Z Fare: so when the symbol changes name...
2014-05-02T23:11:11Z jasom: heh
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2014-05-02T23:15:22Z Viaken: So, this seems like a stupid question, but how do you alias a function? (defvar g #'f)?
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2014-05-02T23:16:13Z stassats: (setf (fdefinition g) #'f)
2014-05-02T23:16:15Z _death: (setf (fdefinition 'g) #'f) ... some caveats there
2014-05-02T23:16:41Z Fare: viaken: (defun g (&rest args) (apply #'f args))
2014-05-02T23:19:14Z mood: Hmm, I used (setf (symbol-function 'g) #'f) in the past. Would there be any difference between FDEFINITION and SYMBOL-FUNCTION, other than FDEFINITION's behaviour on macros or special forms being "not well-defined"?
2014-05-02T23:20:18Z mood: Oh, I see. They're equivalent, except FDEFINITION accepts other arguments than just symbols.
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2014-05-02T23:35:40Z jasom: Viaken: you may need an eval-when to do the right thing when compiling
2014-05-02T23:36:36Z jasom: well for the (setf (fdefinition 'g) #'f) version anyway
2014-05-02T23:38:51Z Viaken: Sounds like too much work to just shorten the name of a function. :P
2014-05-02T23:39:11Z jasom: Viaken: Fare's version will work just fine, and the overhead isn't much
2014-05-02T23:39:49Z stassats: no arglist display in slime
2014-05-02T23:40:42Z jasom: Viaken: why not just use a shorter name to begin with?
2014-05-02T23:41:14Z Viaken: Because it's not my function.
2014-05-02T23:42:08Z jasom: Viaken: you can do some symbol-macro tricks as well, but I don't know anyone who really thinks that's a good idea
2014-05-02T23:42:54Z Fare: nixos-install fails because Font-TTF-0.48.tar.gz has the wrong digest
2014-05-02T23:42:56Z Viaken: Specifically, I didn't want to have to type array-in-bounds-p a half a dozen times.
2014-05-02T23:43:16Z Viaken: NixOS was an interesting idea. I've not explored it deeply, but the concept intrigues me.
2014-05-02T23:43:17Z jasom: (define-symbol-macro foo 'bar)
2014-05-02T23:43:31Z Fare: (wrong window)
2014-05-02T23:44:13Z p_l: #<ERROR: WRONG WINDOW>
2014-05-02T23:46:34Z jasom: using a symbol macro breaks when you bind the symbol though
2014-05-02T23:47:24Z stassats: and how would a symbol macro work for a function?
2014-05-02T23:47:45Z jasom: sorry defmacro plus symbol macro
2014-05-02T23:48:04Z stassats: what is the symbol macro for?
2014-05-02T23:48:06Z Fare: you can use my version with an inline declaration
2014-05-02T23:49:01Z jasom: ah crap (function FOO) won't expand FOO as a symbol macro
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2014-05-02T23:49:18Z jasom didn't know function was a special operator
2014-05-02T23:49:27Z jasom: though I suppose it would have to be
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2014-05-02T23:49:54Z jasom: since it's the only way to generate a lexical closure
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2014-05-03T00:24:42Z jasom: (WRITE-SEQUENCE #(0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 73 150 2 210) #<SB-SYS:FD-STREAM for "file /export/jmiller/home/foo.bin" {102AF08633}> :START 0 :END NIL) => The value NIL is not of type SB-IMPL::BUFFER.
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2014-05-03T00:26:55Z jasom: (with-open-file (s "foo.bin" :if-exists :supersede :if-does-not-exist :create :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))
2014-05-03T00:26:58Z jasom: (WRITE-SEQUENCE #(0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 73 150 2 210) s :START 0 :END NIL))
2014-05-03T00:27:08Z jasom: there's a full test
2014-05-03T00:27:50Z jasom: I'm missing :direction :output, nevermind
2014-05-03T00:28:08Z stassats: the error is "is not a binary output stream."
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2014-05-03T00:32:43Z jasom: yeah, that came up in the more reduced test
2014-05-03T00:33:07Z jasom: perhaps an underlying library declared it to be an output stream
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2014-05-03T03:05:02Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-05-03T03:44:57Z theos: hello mr. beach
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2014-05-03T03:50:17Z Viaken: Good evening, beach.
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2014-05-03T04:03:31Z nydel: is there a way to write a function that will neatly-format any trivial class('s values) without having met the class?
2014-05-03T04:03:47Z Bike: values meaning slots?
2014-05-03T04:03:57Z nydel: yes Bike thankyou
2014-05-03T04:04:37Z Bike: you could use the MOP
2014-05-03T04:06:10Z nydel: i see #'compute_slots .. am i on the right track
2014-05-03T04:06:40Z nydel: dash not underscore
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2014-05-03T04:08:19Z Bike: probably. i forget the details.
2014-05-03T04:09:45Z nydel: if i have a class b that has superclass a, can i access slots from an instance of a when make-instance\-ing class b, i.e. include in one of b's slot's :initform arguments a function called with a slot variable from the instance of a as a variable?
2014-05-03T04:10:46Z nydel: oh wait nevermind i see the answer is to do that in a defmethod
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2014-05-03T04:14:03Z nydel: i need way way more mirrors and dry-erase markers.
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2014-05-03T05:16:46Z beach: pjb: Around?
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2014-05-03T05:17:36Z beach: pjb: There is something fishy with the timings on "larissa".  Are you sure that processor is running at 1.7GHz?
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2014-05-03T05:21:57Z beach is confused.  cat /proc/cpuinfo says Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2500K CPU @ 3.30GHz, but also cpu MHz : 1600.000.
2014-05-03T05:22:04Z beach: Can someone explain that?
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2014-05-03T05:24:55Z rszeno: cpufrecq-info?
2014-05-03T05:25:27Z Bike: what's the first thing, the model name?
2014-05-03T05:25:29Z beach: rszeno: What is that?
2014-05-03T05:25:38Z beach: Bike: Yes.
2014-05-03T05:26:09Z rszeno: frequency depend of governer policy
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2014-05-03T05:26:52Z beach: rszeno: I don't understand.  Do you know of a way to find out what the real clock speed is?
2014-05-03T05:27:30Z Bike: i would guess that the processor is capable of 3.3 GHz but it under low load so it's governed to be lower, but that's a guess
2014-05-03T05:27:42Z rszeno: cpufreq-info will show what is able to do but not current frequency
2014-05-03T05:27:43Z beach: Hmm.  I see.
2014-05-03T05:28:08Z rszeno: same here, a guess
2014-05-03T05:28:29Z beach: rszeno: I don't know what cpufreq-info is.
2014-05-03T05:28:46Z Bike: it's a program that lets you mess with the governor settings, apparently
2014-05-03T05:28:54Z beach: Ah, I see.
2014-05-03T05:28:55Z rszeno: is a tool for controling cpu frequency
2014-05-03T05:28:58Z scoofy: part of the cpufrequtils program
2014-05-03T05:29:03Z beach: Thanks!
2014-05-03T05:29:08Z Bike: so you can overclock things, i guess, as opposed to your present underclocking
2014-05-03T05:29:24Z rszeno: cpufreq-aperf probably will do what you want, but i don't know
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2014-05-03T05:30:06Z beach: I actually don't need for it to be higher.  I just need to know what it currently is.
2014-05-03T05:30:20Z Bike: i'd go with the cpu MHz value. the name is a name.
2014-05-03T05:30:21Z p_l: cpufreq let's you manage frequency from the set supported by CPU. typical ondemand use scales based on current demand
2014-05-03T05:30:25Z scoofy: i have a program called cpu frequency monitor installed, it always shows the actual cpu frequency on the screen
2014-05-03T05:30:54Z p_l: beach: cpu MHz should be the current value
2014-05-03T05:30:56Z Bike: man, is it just me or is /proc/cpuinfo really underdocumented
2014-05-03T05:30:58Z p_l: but even that... is iffy
2014-05-03T05:31:09Z Bike: yeah i'm getting the impression this isn't good for anything serious
2014-05-03T05:31:22Z Bike: "this" meaning plaintext in /proc entirely, really...
2014-05-03T05:31:34Z beach: OK, if the real value is 1.6, that explains some strange figures I got in my tests.
2014-05-03T05:31:39Z beach: Thanks everyone.
2014-05-03T05:31:45Z p_l: Bike: it's plaintext because said plaintext is actually portable (between languages as well)
2014-05-03T05:31:53Z p_l: the data in cpuinfo depends on cpu architecture
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2014-05-03T05:32:02Z Bike: cool cool.
2014-05-03T05:32:32Z Bike: looks like lscpu outputs minimums and maximums.
2014-05-03T05:32:32Z p_l: also, x86 cpuinfo is quite self-explainable, but I guess one needs to know the terms
2014-05-03T05:32:49Z Bike: well, right, i wouldn't have wondered about it if it wasn't for the "@ 3.30 GHz" in the name.
2014-05-03T05:32:53Z p_l: the model name string is taken from CPU itself, iirc
2014-05-03T05:33:10Z p_l: so the @ 3.30 GHz is probably put there by intel
2014-05-03T05:33:21Z Bike: yeah, i thought that might be it.
2014-05-03T05:33:48Z Bike: for what it's worth, beach, my snazzy AMD CPU can get up to 3.9 GHz but is currently chilling at 1400 MHz according to both cpuinfo and lscpu.
2014-05-03T05:34:30Z scoofy: well lscpu gives you the actual MHz rate.
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2014-05-03T05:35:55Z p_l: scoofy: in my case it shows it incorrectly
2014-05-03T05:36:42Z p_l: (for some reason it takes clock from cpu0, whereas both cores and both threads have different clocks in my case)
2014-05-03T05:37:00Z p_l: although I have no idea how different threads get different clocks -_-;
2014-05-03T05:37:02Z scoofy: hm, mine is a single core cpu here
2014-05-03T05:37:27Z Bike: clock speed isn't a very useful measure nowadays anyway, is it?
2014-05-03T05:37:37Z rszeno: no is not
2014-05-03T05:37:57Z scoofy: compared to the maximal cpu speed, it's a good measure of the current performance (throttling)
2014-05-03T05:38:13Z rszeno: plus having few cpu can jump from one to another
2014-05-03T05:38:41Z beach: Bike: Thanks.  I am getting a better picture of things now.
2014-05-03T05:38:46Z p_l: actually, some cpus with certain governors will play around with deep C-states instead of dropping clock
2014-05-03T05:38:57Z p_l: life used to be simple :P
2014-05-03T05:39:20Z beach finally has an explanation to some weird timings.
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2014-05-03T05:48:58Z beach: H4ns: Can you confirm that the processor of the computer on which you ran my test is actually running at 2.2GHz?
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2014-05-03T05:51:10Z p_l: beach: best would be to run with fixed frequency... cpus today will jump around a lot
2014-05-03T05:51:14Z scoofy: cpu clock speed is 2.2 GHz and governor is set to maximum performance?
2014-05-03T05:51:41Z rszeno: and kernel control everything
2014-05-03T05:51:58Z scoofy: if governor is ondemand, powersave, conservative etc. then cpu clock may jump around
2014-05-03T05:52:12Z rszeno: probably accurate banchmarks is imposible
2014-05-03T05:52:54Z p_l: even then you have C-states to worry about
2014-05-03T05:53:06Z p_l: and inter-C-state latencies
2014-05-03T05:53:26Z rszeno: and I/O and current loading
2014-05-03T05:53:42Z rszeno: are too many factors
2014-05-03T05:54:14Z beach: It's not *that* important.  I just want to get a ballpark figure.  I just had some timing figures that were not reasonable, and I needed an explanation for them.
2014-05-03T05:55:10Z rszeno: this look like profiling?
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2014-05-03T05:56:43Z beach: I should tell you what I am up to.  Here is a sneak preview of the paper I am writing: http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf
2014-05-03T05:56:50Z scoofy: in general, other processes running in a system may also alter benchmark figures.
2014-05-03T05:57:20Z beach: Comments are welcome, but if you have any, please send me email at robert.strandh@gmail.com
2014-05-03T05:57:46Z rszeno: ok, thank you, i will read this
2014-05-03T05:58:10Z beach: It is still incomplete.  In particular the second on previous work.
2014-05-03T05:58:36Z beach: And some things are wrong such as "Categories and Subject Descriptors".
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2014-05-03T06:00:00Z rszeno: no problem, i will ask if is a problem
2014-05-03T06:00:43Z beach: s/second on/section on/
2014-05-03T06:00:58Z beach is slowly becoming dyslexic. 
2014-05-03T06:02:37Z beach: Executive summary: I think the technique for generic dispatch I use in SICL will be 3-4 times as fast as the one used in SBCL.
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2014-05-03T06:30:50Z beach: Oh, one more thing about the paper.  If anyone has access to LispWorks, could that person please help me by running the test in the paper and sending me the result?
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2014-05-03T06:36:47Z splittist: beach: by 'as fast as' do you mean 'faster than'? I guess so, reading your draft. ('fast' should be 'faster' in the abstract)
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2014-05-03T06:37:27Z beach: No.  3 times faster is 4 times as fast.
2014-05-03T06:37:33Z beach: So I mean as fast.
2014-05-03T06:38:19Z beach: No?
2014-05-03T06:38:49Z Bike: shit, is that how words work? i've been saying some wrong things
2014-05-03T06:39:24Z beach: I could be wrong too, but I have given it a lot of thought.
2014-05-03T06:39:35Z beach: I mean, consider 10% faster.
2014-05-03T06:39:47Z beach: That is 1.1 times as fast.
2014-05-03T06:40:02Z beach: 100% faster is twice as fast.
2014-05-03T06:40:03Z beach: No?
2014-05-03T06:40:34Z Bike: guess i'll have to remember to say 'as fast'
2014-05-03T06:41:13Z Quadrescence: beach, what about "two times faster"? :)
2014-05-03T06:41:28Z beach: Quadrescence: That would be 3 times as fast.
2014-05-03T06:41:43Z Quadrescence: I'm not sure I agree with that. I agree with your previous things.
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2014-05-03T06:42:15Z Bike: i have made this program one times faster
2014-05-03T06:42:26Z beach: Quadrescence: So to you, "2 times" is not the same as "200%"?
2014-05-03T06:43:04Z beach: Bike: You would prefer to say 100% faster in that case.
2014-05-03T06:43:12Z Quadrescence: beach, I know what you're saying, but I think almost always, if someone were to say "two times faster", they probably mean the speed doubled.
2014-05-03T06:43:14Z beach: Bike: Or twice as fast.
2014-05-03T06:43:31Z beach: Quadrescence: I think they are wrong.  Sorry.
2014-05-03T06:43:37Z rszeno: beach, there is any way to get time accurate inside the loop before and after test, make difference and cumulate?
2014-05-03T06:44:26Z beach: rszeno: I think even asking for cpu time in the loop would bias the result.
2014-05-03T06:44:42Z beach: rszeno: There are so few cycles involved.
2014-05-03T06:45:11Z beach: rszeno: Plus, as I explain, it doesn't have to be that accurate at this point.
2014-05-03T06:46:06Z rszeno: i was thinking that this method will vary with the host, is in a way a profiler
2014-05-03T06:46:35Z Quadrescence: beach, Where's the paper?
2014-05-03T06:46:51Z beach: Quadrescence: http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf
2014-05-03T06:47:01Z beach: Quadrescence: Not finished, very preliminary.
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2014-05-03T06:47:47Z beach: rszeno: Tell you what.  If you design a test that shows significantly different results that mine does, and you can argue that yours is more accurate, then I'll switch and acknowledge your contribution.
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2014-05-03T06:48:44Z rszeno: :)
2014-05-03T06:48:54Z beach: rszeno: As I explain in the paper, the test is not meant to be sufficient scientific proof that my technique is better, only that it is worth pursuing.
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2014-05-03T06:49:43Z beach: rszeno: Also, the test gives an unfair advantage to table-based methods, because everything will obviously be in the cache.
2014-05-03T06:50:38Z brucem: beach: are you strictly interested in CL generic dispatch for your paper or are you interested in other systems that also implement generic dispatch?
2014-05-03T06:50:41Z beach: The final proof (if the hypothesis turns out to be right) would have to include tests with cache misses, with several different argument classes etc.
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2014-05-03T06:51:37Z beach: brucem: Short answer: I don't care about others. :)  Longer answer: My technique needs the compiler at runtime, so may not be applicable to so many other systems.
2014-05-03T06:52:46Z brucem: beach: okay, won't bother with feedback then. :)
2014-05-03T06:52:55Z beach: Heh!
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2014-05-03T06:53:18Z brucem: I'll criticize after publication!
2014-05-03T06:53:22Z Bike: you're aware that SBCL PCL uses the compiler at runtime for a few things anyway, i hope
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2014-05-03T06:53:28Z beach: brucem: Fine! :)
2014-05-03T06:53:37Z beach: Bike: Oh yes.
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2014-05-03T07:18:12Z splittist: beach: I find the 'x times as fast' locution confusing for x > 1. 'Half as fast' strikes me as unambiguous. I think the confusion comes because 'speed' necessarily involves two quantities, time and something else. To be crystal clear, you could say 'x can perform twice as many calls as y in the same period', or 'x takes only half the time to perform the same
2014-05-03T07:18:12Z splittist: number of calls as y'.
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2014-05-03T07:19:20Z Bike: just use 'as fast', dang
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2014-05-03T07:22:25Z beach: splittist: OK, I'll give it some thought and figure out a better way of saying it.
2014-05-03T07:23:17Z beach: I maintain that the way I use it is the only logical one.  That, of course, is of no help if many people misunderstand it.
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2014-05-03T07:24:13Z splittist: beach: so to you 'twice as fast' means '3 times the velocity'? Or am I confusing that with 'two times faster'?
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2014-05-03T07:33:57Z beach: twice as fast is the same as two times as fast, which is 100% faster.
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2014-05-03T07:35:31Z beach: two times faster means three times as fast which means 3 times the velocity.
2014-05-03T07:37:36Z scoofy: i thought 'two times faster' means 100% faster.
2014-05-03T07:37:37Z beach: In general "x times as fast" = "x-1 times faster" = "100(x-1)% faster"
2014-05-03T07:37:48Z beach: scoofy: What made you think that?
2014-05-03T07:38:17Z scoofy: have you ever heard 'x is one times faster than y' ?
2014-05-03T07:38:26Z scoofy: or, 'x is one time faster than y'
2014-05-03T07:38:45Z beach: No.  In general, people would prefer to say 100% faster then.
2014-05-03T07:38:51Z scoofy: why?
2014-05-03T07:39:00Z beach: How would I know?
2014-05-03T07:39:28Z beach: scoofy: To you, does 0.9 faster mean that it is slower?
2014-05-03T07:39:51Z scoofy: possibly, depending on the context
2014-05-03T07:40:06Z beach: scoofy: Good for you.  I disagree.
2014-05-03T07:41:49Z scoofy: you should do a statistics, asking people what they understand when they read that
2014-05-03T07:42:09Z beach: No need.  I'll change it as splittist suggested.
2014-05-03T07:43:10Z scoofy: well, 'twice as fast' is more precise than 'two times faster' (which mathematically means, 200% faster)
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2014-05-03T07:45:07Z beach suggests we drop this topic and concentrate on the potential advantage of the dispatch method instead.
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2014-05-03T08:28:18Z splittist: beach: your paper doesn't really highlight how SICL's generic dispatch works. I kept looking for a paragraph like the second one in the PCL section. To continue the contrast, you might think about including a list like the ones you give in 2.1, but for SICL.
2014-05-03T08:28:21Z wbooze: morning
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2014-05-03T08:39:47Z beach: splittist: Yeah, I need to expand on the SICL method.  Thanks.
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2014-05-03T08:41:07Z beach: splittist: Good idea about including similar lists of operations.
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2014-05-03T08:43:47Z beach: Hello wbooze.
2014-05-03T08:44:18Z beach: splittist: Despite this lack of highlight, did you understand how it works?
2014-05-03T08:47:00Z wbooze: hello beach.
2014-05-03T08:47:29Z splittist: beach: not really, no. Your summary of PCL is so clear I almost felt I could implement it from your description. Apart from knowing that classes have unique numbers, and that generic functions have some sort of call history structure that involves these numbers, I couldn't really tell how it worked.
2014-05-03T08:47:47Z splittist: s/it/SICL/
2014-05-03T08:48:10Z beach: splittist: OK.  Definitely needs expanding on then. :)
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2014-05-03T08:49:07Z splittist: You can confidently use me as a lowest common denominator (or even low bound) reader (:
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2014-05-03T08:49:28Z beach: splittist: I think you might be exaggerating a bit.
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2014-05-03T08:49:48Z beach: But yeah, thanks.  I'll expand it and let you know when it is done.
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2014-05-03T09:09:53Z pjb: beach: larissa is a MacBookAir.  It was on power, but I wouldn't be surprised if the system didn't play trick with batch processes anyways.
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2014-05-03T09:39:03Z beach: pjb: The figure is unreasonably good for the clock speed you indicate.
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2014-05-03T09:39:36Z beach: pjb: It would mean that your SBCL on that machine is twice as fast as newer versions on Linux with the same processor.
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2014-05-03T09:40:39Z beach: splittist: New version of the paper at http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf whenever you have time to take a look.  In particular, let me know if my technique can be understood now.
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2014-05-03T09:43:04Z pjb: I'm running the test again on larissa.
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2014-05-03T09:45:39Z beach: pjb: I suspect the number you gave of the clock speed (1.7GHz) might be wrong.  So I would appreciate if you would check that for me as well.
2014-05-03T09:46:53Z beach does not know how to determine the real clock frequency on a Mac.
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2014-05-03T09:48:26Z beach: Oh, and again, if anyone here has access to LispWorks (preferably 64-bit) I would appreciate some help running the test.
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2014-05-03T09:54:52Z pjb: This is what is reported by the About this Mac dialog; processor 1.7 GHz Intel Core i7  and memor 8 GB 1600 MHz DDR3.
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2014-05-03T09:55:08Z beach: Strange.
2014-05-03T09:55:23Z stassats: and turbo?
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2014-05-03T09:56:48Z pjb: I get ccl: 21.161 s, clisp: 167 s, sbcl: 4.678 s.
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2014-05-03T09:57:32Z beach: OK.  Still strange.  Perhaps you can disassemble the function x and send the result to me by email?
2014-05-03T09:57:42Z pjb: Sure.
2014-05-03T09:58:05Z stassats: turbo should be about 3GHz
2014-05-03T09:58:19Z beach: If it is 3GHz, then I believe it.
2014-05-03T09:58:28Z beach: That would make perfect sense.
2014-05-03T09:58:44Z stassats: what cpu model is that?
2014-05-03T09:59:22Z beach: X86-64 Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4650U CPU @ 1.70GHz
2014-05-03T09:59:38Z stassats: 3.3 GHz
2014-05-03T09:59:55Z beach: stassats: The real clock frequency?
2014-05-03T10:00:03Z splittist: beach: very clear, now. Do you want to be more specific in the introduction about the magnitude of memory access vs register/constant instructions?
2014-05-03T10:00:20Z stassats: beach: for a single core running
2014-05-03T10:00:24Z stassats: full tilt
2014-05-03T10:00:27Z beach: splittist: Maybe.  I'll look into that.  Thanks for reading.
2014-05-03T10:00:38Z beach: stassats: OK.
2014-05-03T10:00:59Z stassats: see http://ark.intel.com/products/75114
2014-05-03T10:01:58Z pjb: beach: I've sent it.  The disassembly doesn't look surprising.  It's shorter for sbcl than for ccl.
2014-05-03T10:02:06Z beach: stassats: I see, yes.  The question I need answered is what real clock frequency pjb's machine is running at.
2014-05-03T10:02:24Z beach: pjb: Yes, but I need to compare it to what I get on my machine.
2014-05-03T10:02:48Z stassats: i expect Mac OS to be good enough to scale to 3.3 GHz upon load
2014-05-03T10:02:53Z beach: pjb: If it is similar, the only explanation is that your machine is really running at > 3GHz rather than 1.7.
2014-05-03T10:03:03Z beach: stassats: AH!!!!
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2014-05-03T10:03:24Z stassats: but for tests, i usually pin it to max frequency
2014-05-03T10:04:30Z beach: Yeah, sure.  For precise timing, that would be preferable.  I only need a ballpark figure, but this one is 100% faster than it ought to be, so I suspect you are right.
2014-05-03T10:04:59Z stassats: what about IPC?
2014-05-03T10:05:31Z beach: That would influence it negatively, no?
2014-05-03T10:05:51Z stassats: instructions per cycle? the more the faster
2014-05-03T10:06:03Z beach: Oh, sorry.
2014-05-03T10:06:22Z beach: Yes, but it doesn't matter, because I compare different implementations on the same processor.
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2014-05-03T10:06:30Z beach: .. or nearly the same.
2014-05-03T10:07:09Z beach: Again, I just need a ballpark figure.  And the one reported by pjb is < 5s, whereas all other data points I have suggest that it ought to be closer to 10.
2014-05-03T10:07:09Z stassats: i can test it on an arm cpu, if you're curious
2014-05-03T10:07:42Z beach: Someone did that already, and it is so bad I decided I won't use it :)
2014-05-03T10:07:49Z beach: SBCL on ARM that is.
2014-05-03T10:08:09Z beach: Now, if you have some other high-performance implementation on ARM, I am definitely interested.
2014-05-03T10:08:15Z stassats: on raspberry pi? i have a different cpu
2014-05-03T10:08:26Z beach: Sure, go ahead.
2014-05-03T10:08:30Z beach: Do you have the code?
2014-05-03T10:08:35Z stassats: nope
2014-05-03T10:09:03Z beach: hold on..
2014-05-03T10:09:30Z beach: OK, look in the paper: http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf
2014-05-03T10:09:54Z beach: It's only a few lines, but if you prefer, I can give you the source.
2014-05-03T10:09:57Z pjb: I bought it in March.  Indeed, it looks like it has a Turbo at 3.3 GHz.  Nice. :-)
2014-05-03T10:10:09Z beach: pjb: Whew!  Thanks!
2014-05-03T10:10:19Z beach: I'll just adjust the numbers you sent.
2014-05-03T10:10:22Z beach: Thanks again so much!
2014-05-03T10:10:50Z pjb: On what conditions is the Turbo mode activated?
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2014-05-03T10:11:05Z pjb: It didn't fell like the Turbo was on for clisp :-)
2014-05-03T10:11:24Z pjb: So perhaps it needs specific conditions, like a tight loop with few memory accesses.
2014-05-03T10:11:25Z splittist: pjb: mysterious and unpredictable ones! And people complain about garbage collection...
2014-05-03T10:11:37Z pjb: In normal application code, it may not activate.
2014-05-03T10:11:39Z stassats: beach: is it the F function?
2014-05-03T10:11:47Z stassats: waiting for it to complete
2014-05-03T10:12:06Z stassats: pjb: on 100% cpu load, basically
2014-05-03T10:12:22Z stassats: beach: i get 62 seconds
2014-05-03T10:12:23Z pjb: Ok. So it should be safe enough to take it into account.
2014-05-03T10:13:00Z stassats: but for benchmarks, better pin it, or it will take time to ramp up and may throttle down during lulls
2014-05-03T10:13:21Z beach: stassats: Yes.
2014-05-03T10:13:36Z stassats: and SBCL is not yet fully optimized on ARM, it's quite new
2014-05-03T10:13:47Z stassats: and i have a 1200MHz cortex-a9 CPU
2014-05-03T10:13:49Z beach: Yes, that's why I think it is unfair to include it in my test.
2014-05-03T10:14:02Z beach: It will give the wrong impression.
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2014-05-03T10:15:29Z stassats: and indeed, sbcl didn't change between 1.1.6 and 1.1.13 to go from 45 on 3GHz to 11 on 1.8GHz
2014-05-03T10:16:19Z beach: stassats: Hmm.  So I should probably remove the 1.1.6 entry too.
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2014-05-03T10:19:49Z beach: I am very grateful to everyone for all the help.  Thanks!
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2014-05-03T10:21:22Z beach: stassats: I think it was nyef who asked me whether my technique could be implemented in SBCL, but I don't know enough about SBCL internals to answer that question.  Perhaps when you have time, you can read the second on my technique and let me know what to tell him.
2014-05-03T10:21:59Z beach: wow, s/second/section/
2014-05-03T10:22:01Z beach: again!
2014-05-03T10:22:20Z beach is definitely becoming dyslexic.
2014-05-03T10:22:55Z rszeno: beach, stassats is offline but probably will read the logs
2014-05-03T10:23:19Z beach: rszeno: Oh, missed that.  Thanks.
2014-05-03T10:23:30Z rszeno: welcome, :)
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2014-05-03T10:31:23Z wbooze: morning morning
2014-05-03T10:32:08Z beach: wbooze: Again?
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2014-05-03T11:17:38Z stassats: beach: benchmarking is hard, and things like cpu scaling make it harder
2014-05-03T11:17:59Z stassats: beach: the difference on ccl between linux and mac os x doesn't seem realistic either
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2014-05-03T11:20:33Z stassats: beach: how i would build that table, take a single machine, pin down the frequency, and compare the latest versions of implementations
2014-05-03T11:20:49Z stassats: the OS doesn't really matter here
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2014-05-03T12:03:53Z beach: stassats: You are right about CCL.
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2014-05-03T12:04:41Z beach: stassats: As I write in the paper, this is just to get ballpark figures.
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2014-05-03T12:05:13Z beach: stassats: When I write the final paper (when SICL exists), I need to be more careful about designing the benchmarks.
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2014-05-03T12:05:45Z beach: stassats: Did you see my question about implementing my technique in SBCL?
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2014-05-03T12:05:53Z stassats: i saw, but i haven't read the paper yet
2014-05-03T12:05:58Z beach: OK.
2014-05-03T12:06:04Z beach: At your leasure.
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2014-05-03T12:06:28Z beach: *leisure.
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2014-05-03T12:16:41Z beach: stassats: In the paper, should I refer to you as Stas Boukarev?  As I understand, "Stas" is a diminutive, no?
2014-05-03T12:17:29Z stassats: it is
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2014-05-03T12:17:43Z beach would not like for stassats to refer to him as "Bob".
2014-05-03T12:18:12Z beach: That's how you prefer it written?
2014-05-03T12:18:37Z stassats: well, yeah
2014-05-03T12:18:42Z beach: OK, great.
2014-05-03T12:19:00Z stassats: unless it's something official
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2014-05-03T12:22:11Z beach: Just acknowledgments in the paper.  Nothing official.
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2014-05-03T12:42:48Z dim: is there a way to know if a given buildapp binary was built against ccl or sbcl?
2014-05-03T12:43:03Z stassats: without running it?
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2014-05-03T12:44:54Z stassats: grep sbcl/ccl
2014-05-03T12:45:28Z stassats: prone to false positives
2014-05-03T12:46:10Z hitecnologys: Indeed. If one puts string that contains "sbcl" in binary compiled agains CCL, your approach will most probably fail.
2014-05-03T12:46:21Z hitecnologys: against*
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2014-05-03T12:49:30Z beach: stassats: I assumed that you would want to be acknowledged, but I guess I should ask.  So do you?
2014-05-03T12:49:57Z stassats: beach: i'm not sure for what, but i don't mind
2014-05-03T12:50:03Z beach: OK.
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2014-05-03T12:59:34Z stassats: dim: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142376
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2014-05-03T13:00:29Z dim: wow, ok
2014-05-03T13:01:23Z dim: the goal here was just to recompile buildapp itself when switching from a CL to another (with pgloader you can make CL=sbcl or make CL=ccl)
2014-05-03T13:01:39Z dim: actually I could use ./build/bin/buildapp.sbcl and .ccl
2014-05-03T13:02:34Z dim: anyways, thanks stassats
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2014-05-03T13:18:57Z beach: brucem: You are absolutely right.  I am now convinced that my technique is totally applicable to other languages as well.
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2014-05-03T13:31:16Z dim: how to ignore bindings in a loop form?
2014-05-03T13:31:35Z wbooze: ?
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2014-05-03T13:32:17Z wbooze: (declare (ignorable var)) ?
2014-05-03T13:32:21Z dim: (loop :for (nil . opts) :in ...)
2014-05-03T13:32:31Z dim: I don't know where to add the ignorable form in a loop
2014-05-03T13:32:43Z hitecnologys: You don't need to ignore it.
2014-05-03T13:32:48Z hitecnologys: LOOP won't mind.
2014-05-03T13:33:04Z dim: CCL complains
2014-05-03T13:33:15Z dim: inside an anonymous lambda form: Unused lexical variable NAME
2014-05-03T13:33:36Z hitecnologys: Then try putting declaration right before DO part.
2014-05-03T13:33:44Z hitecnologys: I mean right before actual body of DO part.
2014-05-03T13:33:47Z stassats: dim: what do you want to ignore?
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2014-05-03T13:34:00Z dim: well using nil made it here
2014-05-03T13:34:12Z dim:   (loop :for (nil . opts) :in (fields fixed) ...)
2014-05-03T13:34:15Z dim: that's what I now have
2014-05-03T13:34:23Z brucem: beach: I guess I should look more at it then ... perhaps Monday!
2014-05-03T13:34:28Z dim: nil used to be spelled name
2014-05-03T13:34:37Z stassats: dim: i see, i was confused, because i thought you asked about that form, and there was nothing to ignore
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2014-05-03T13:34:52Z dim: yeah, sorry
2014-05-03T13:35:05Z dim: I've asked to fast for help, found my training wheels in between
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2014-05-03T13:36:47Z dim: stassats: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/commit/e39788e5cd9ded75be31e3c33e9edf769cb232cb
2014-05-03T13:37:04Z dim: of course one of the changes is a genuine bug
2014-05-03T13:37:40Z stassats: (loop for c in columns collect nil) => (make-list (length columns))
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2014-05-03T13:38:50Z stassats: and keyworded loop statemnts => ugh!
2014-05-03T13:39:11Z dim: well I didn't use to do that, but I now prefer it that way
2014-05-03T13:39:28Z dim: I guess using KEYWORD package or your own is not much difference
2014-05-03T13:39:40Z dim: the main point is Editor hightlighting help
2014-05-03T13:39:44Z dim: I use loop too much, too
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2014-05-03T13:40:10Z stassats: your editor is not good then
2014-05-03T13:41:35Z stassats: i need to start working again on my "better" editor
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2014-05-03T13:43:38Z Guest90387: I don't remember who started me on keywords in loop macros
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2014-05-03T13:43:42Z wbooze: http://picpaste.com/pics/snap3-S0mwV7mK.1399124600.png
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2014-05-03T13:44:22Z stassats: indentation and lack of parenthesis already make loop statements stand out
2014-05-03T13:44:38Z stassats: i don't see the reason to turn it into a christmas tree any further
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2014-05-03T13:45:35Z stassats: and if you encounter code without keywords, are you unable to read it? that's why it should be editor support, not code-mangling
2014-05-03T13:46:19Z dim: it's just an helper
2014-05-03T13:46:25Z dim: I tend to write messy loop code I guess
2014-05-03T13:46:30Z dim: so that the helper is welcome
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2014-05-03T13:47:00Z dim: anyway it looks like a matter of preferences, right?
2014-05-03T13:47:04Z stassats: well, i always hate keyworded loop, makes it look un-english
2014-05-03T13:47:10Z dim: yeah ok ;-)
2014-05-03T13:47:27Z dim: what about using iterate then?
2014-05-03T13:47:39Z stassats: can't stand it either
2014-05-03T13:48:00Z stassats: shame it got some nice looping constructs
2014-05-03T13:48:24Z hitecnologys: Why don't you like iterate?
2014-05-03T13:48:35Z stassats: dim: and it is a matter of preference, but when i read your code, i can't exercise my preference
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2014-05-03T13:48:50Z stassats: but if your editor colored loop keywords, and mine didn't, then everyone would be happy
2014-05-03T13:49:08Z stassats: so, better editors, go-go
2014-05-03T13:49:18Z stassats: hitecnologys: syntax
2014-05-03T13:50:01Z dim: stassats: you certainly do have a point here, but it reminds me too much of the space vs tabs debate, in that I don't guess we're going to easity set anything
2014-05-03T13:50:04Z stassats: hitecnologys: loop makes it very clear where is its syntax, and where is the code
2014-05-03T13:50:20Z hitecnologys: stassats: I see. Well, I like normal LOOP syntax more too. However, interate indeed does have some neat stuff.
2014-05-03T13:50:21Z stassats: in iterate, i'm always lost, whether it's a function call or an iterate something
2014-05-03T13:50:24Z dim: even moreso when using keywords ;-)
2014-05-03T13:50:34Z wbooze: http://picpaste.com/pics/snap4-jGt9GJvb.1399125025.png
2014-05-03T13:50:54Z dim: wow that's just too much
2014-05-03T13:50:55Z dlowe: I like the series idea for controlling iteration a lot more
2014-05-03T13:51:00Z stassats: dim: it should be me saying "here, use this editor:", but i haven't written it yet
2014-05-03T13:51:14Z hitecnologys: stassats: I tend to wrap "do" part inside (after-each). This way I always know where the body is.
2014-05-03T13:51:19Z dim: so you have a plan for the week-end, that's cool
2014-05-03T13:51:20Z stassats: so i'm advocating hypothetically
2014-05-03T13:51:33Z beach: brucem: Yeah, it deserves a paper on its own.  But writing such a paper would require some serious fiddling with lesser languages and their implementations.
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2014-05-03T13:53:00Z beach: wbooze: Nice!
2014-05-03T13:53:37Z wbooze: \o|
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2014-05-03T13:53:50Z wbooze: :)
2014-05-03T13:53:53Z stassats: different colors for the same names?
2014-05-03T13:54:01Z hitecnologys: stassats: you were writing some kind of IDE, AFAIR. And I also remember you dumping it because it wasn't very good (the reason may not be accurate because of my poor memory). Why don't you start over then?
2014-05-03T13:54:04Z wbooze: yes i didn't fix that yet.....
2014-05-03T13:54:18Z stassats: hitecnologys: i didn't dump it
2014-05-03T13:54:32Z hitecnologys: stassats: ah, I see. Something is wrong with my memory then.
2014-05-03T13:54:39Z stassats: there's just too much cool things to work on, and there's just so much time
2014-05-03T13:54:47Z beach: brucem: With a static language, the technique would be simpler.  Also, but clever depth-first compile-time numbering of the classes, dispatch time could be optimized.
2014-05-03T13:55:47Z stassats: hitecnologys: i need to get it into the state where i actually use it full-time
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2014-05-03T13:55:55Z beach: s/Also but/Also with/
2014-05-03T13:56:00Z stassats: then i will get annoyed with things and fix them faster
2014-05-03T13:56:07Z stassats: like was the case with slime
2014-05-03T13:56:18Z hitecnologys: stassats: I see.
2014-05-03T13:56:32Z hitecnologys: stassats: makes sense to me.
2014-05-03T13:58:21Z brucem: beach: might be worth taking a look ... I'm not thrilled with our dispatch times.
2014-05-03T13:58:39Z beach: brucem: "our"?
2014-05-03T13:58:40Z dim: stassats: so if you want another perf challenge, it seems that here pgloader is consistently faster using CCL when compared to using SBCL
2014-05-03T13:58:52Z brucem: beach: Open Dylan
2014-05-03T13:59:07Z stassats: dim: you shared that, but i can't measure it
2014-05-03T13:59:14Z beach: brucem: Ah, OK.  But that would be similar to CL, right?
2014-05-03T13:59:19Z stassats: i don't really want to deal with RDBMSes
2014-05-03T13:59:26Z brucem: beach: our dispatch mechanism differs a lot from how people write about generic dispatch in academic papers ...
2014-05-03T13:59:42Z brucem: beach: somewhat similar, somewhat different ... we can be a bit more static.
2014-05-03T14:00:00Z beach: brucem: I see.  What do you do (in a few words)?
2014-05-03T14:00:12Z beach: brucem: I mean, how does the current mechanism work?
2014-05-03T14:00:27Z dim: stassats: well, it appears to be true when loading CSV data too, so that the dependencies required to run the tests are "only" pgloader + csv files + postgresql
2014-05-03T14:00:47Z stassats: too much dependencies for me
2014-05-03T14:01:04Z stassats: but string i/o may use an improvement in SBCL
2014-05-03T14:01:29Z brucem: beach: there's a dispatch engine node per argument ... these engine nodes alter strategy based on monomorphic, polymorphic, megamorphic, whether or not there is an eql specializer, etc.
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2014-05-03T14:02:31Z beach: brucem: Is this documented somewhere?
2014-05-03T14:02:35Z brucem: beach: monomorphic engine node just contains a single pointer to the next engine node or the function (depending on where it is in the chain of per-argument engine nodes). polymorphic does a linear lookup. megamorphic does a hash lookup. eql specializers use if/then nodes ...
2014-05-03T14:02:49Z brucem: beach: I'm looking for hte paper that describes it ... and some extensions that aren't in production.
2014-05-03T14:03:18Z beach: Thanks.
2014-05-03T14:03:49Z brucem: beach: http://people.csail.mit.edu/jrb/Projects/pd.pdf describes some of what exists in production and some of what is there, but not enabled because we're all afraid of jrb's unfinished code.
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2014-05-03T14:04:28Z beach: brucem: Great!  I'll read it (but not right now).
2014-05-03T14:05:05Z brucem: beach: up through section 6 describes current ... section 6 is the disabled code.
2014-05-03T14:05:35Z beach: brucem: Good to know.  I actually already had this paper queued up for reading.
2014-05-03T14:06:17Z brucem: beach: a typical academic paper on the subject would be the one from Eric Kidd ...http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/reports/TR2001-404.pdf
2014-05-03T14:06:34Z beach: Got that one already as well.
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2014-05-03T14:07:08Z beach: Good to know I didn't miss anything in my research :)
2014-05-03T14:07:37Z brucem: beach: well, the Julia people haven't bothered to write about what they do (yet?)
2014-05-03T14:08:04Z beach: brucem: And we think what they do is good?
2014-05-03T14:08:31Z brucem: beach: dunno. I'm not a fan of how the people behind Julia behave overall.
2014-05-03T14:08:50Z beach: brucem: They might still have valid techniques.
2014-05-03T14:08:55Z brucem: I've been too busy to do any comparisons in performance.
2014-05-03T14:08:59Z beach: brucem: Can Open Dylan have obsolete instances the way CL can?
2014-05-03T14:09:51Z brucem: beach: according to the DRM strictly, no. However, I've seen some support for it in the implementation, but no idea of the status.
2014-05-03T14:10:37Z beach: I see.  Doesn't really matter.  It is practically free both with the PCL technique and with mine.
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2014-05-03T14:14:09Z beach: brucem: [reading about Julia & Open Dylan] Looks like there is more work to be done, and more papers to write. :)
2014-05-03T14:14:53Z brucem: beach: well, the pd.pdf above was never completed even .... it has a lot of "<insert data here>" remarks. :(
2014-05-03T14:15:34Z beach: brucem: OK, I'll remember that when reading it.
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2014-05-03T15:55:11Z wbooze: hmm seems like i'll need memoize......
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2014-05-03T17:09:44Z kuanyui: Just curious: any simple way to insert repeated N elements into a list? for example, add 3 t into a list : '(t t t)
2014-05-03T17:10:33Z pjb: (make-list 3 :initial-element t)
2014-05-03T17:11:41Z kuanyui: Can it insert elements into an existed list?
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2014-05-03T17:12:40Z dlowe: (append (make-list 3 :initial-element t) existing-list)
2014-05-03T17:12:55Z kuanyui: Thank you very much!
2014-05-03T17:12:57Z pjb: kuanyui: try: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.sequence:replace-subseq (make-list 3 :initial-element t) (list 1 2 3) 1 1)
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2014-05-03T18:20:30Z g3orge: hey people, I have this function to move a head of list to another list: http://sprunge.us/BXJb When I use its main clause (push (pop one) other) of course it's working, but when trying to do it with the function it just returns the resulting function and the changes don't stick afterwards.
2014-05-03T18:21:04Z g3orge: do I have to use setf or something, cause I thought I can have a function have side-effects in CL
2014-05-03T18:21:40Z Bike: push operates on the variable, to, which is lexically scoped within the function
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2014-05-03T18:23:03Z Bike: (push (pop from) to) is just (setf to (cons (pop from) to)), so you're just changing the variable, which is local to the function.
2014-05-03T18:23:22Z g3orge: so CL is creating another copy of my list in every function call?
2014-05-03T18:23:29Z nyef: Ah, the classic dragon of understanding pass-by-value vs. pass-by-reference vs. which values ARE references. At least someone called g3orge should be well suited to dragon-slaying. (-:
2014-05-03T18:23:30Z Bike: no
2014-05-03T18:23:44Z Bike: you're not actually touching memory with the push
2014-05-03T18:24:25Z Bike: do you know C? this is something like declaring a pointer in the function scope, and setting it to point to a linked list node that points to the originally passed list
2014-05-03T18:24:26Z g3orge: why is that though?
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2014-05-03T18:24:55Z Bike: because that's not what push does.
2014-05-03T18:25:51Z nyef: This is asked often enough that we should produce a web page about it that we can have minion direct people to.
2014-05-03T18:26:42Z nyef: I'm not currently clear-headed enough to explain the issue properly, however. /-:
2014-05-03T18:26:55Z Bike: g3orge: basically, push and pop do side effects, but on variables, not lists. and since the variables are local to the function...
2014-05-03T18:27:10Z Bike: altering a list would be something like (setf (cdr foo) ...), that actually changes where a linked list node is pointing to
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2014-05-03T18:27:54Z g3orge: oh ok, so push is a macro that does that etc, but how is 'to' different inside the function, if it isn't another copy of it?
2014-05-03T18:28:18Z nyef: It's a copy of the pointer to the CONS cell in the list.
2014-05-03T18:28:28Z nyef: The FIRST cons cell in the list.
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2014-05-03T18:29:28Z nyef: So because you mutate the local copy of the pointer, rather than the CONS cell being pointed to, you don't see the effect outside of your function.
2014-05-03T18:29:44Z nyef: I haven't even looked at your source, but the question-pattern is familiar.
2014-05-03T18:30:40Z g3orge: ok, so how do I actually change the list..?
2014-05-03T18:31:17Z Bike: you don't actually want to change the list in this case, just the variable bindings (pointers)
2014-05-03T18:32:06Z ggole: One option is to wrap the lists in, say, a defstruct
2014-05-03T18:32:06Z Bike: i suppose a macro would be the thing, egh.
2014-05-03T18:32:22Z ggole: The struct could be passed around and the parts mutated, giving the effect you want
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2014-05-03T18:33:22Z g3orge: lol, I'm new to lisp, I don't even know what a defstruct is.
2014-05-03T18:33:29Z g3orge: but I guess I can write a macro
2014-05-03T18:33:54Z ggole: It's basically a record.
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2014-05-03T18:34:14Z fifosine: Does anyone know of any lisp programs that allow the source code to be modified from within the program and the changes hotswapper?
2014-05-03T18:34:18Z fifosine: hotswapped*
2014-05-03T18:34:46Z Bike: not the source code, but you can change behavior as you go easily
2014-05-03T18:36:56Z fifosine: Bike: is editing the source not possible?
2014-05-03T18:37:30Z Bike: of course it's possible, you're just writing a file, it's just not a common thing to do.
2014-05-03T18:38:09Z splittist: fifosine: pining for Interlisp?
2014-05-03T18:38:20Z fifosine: splittist: What is that?
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2014-05-03T18:39:24Z nyef: fifosine: I can name a couple of lisp programs in which you can modify the program source and apply the changes immediately to the running system. They're all EMACS clones.
2014-05-03T18:39:51Z fifosine: nyef: Yes, please name them!
2014-05-03T18:40:05Z nyef: climacs and phemlock.
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2014-05-03T18:40:12Z nyef: (portable-hemlock)
2014-05-03T18:40:58Z nyef: Really, though, the ability to redefine your text editor on the fly is available in EMACS itself, though EMACS has its own (un-common) dialect of Lisp.
2014-05-03T18:41:50Z fifosine: nyef: Just to be clear: within emacs, I can open an emacs source file, edit it, save it, and my edits will take effect on-save?
2014-05-03T18:42:04Z ggole: Not on save, upon evalling the code
2014-05-03T18:42:06Z nyef: No, there's an explicit load operation required.
2014-05-03T18:42:25Z Bike: you could define a save-and-load operation yourself, of course.
2014-05-03T18:42:27Z fifosine: what's that load called?  and are there any articles / blog posts about this feature?
2014-05-03T18:42:34Z ggole: You could set up a hook to do it automatically, I suppose.
2014-05-03T18:43:00Z Bike: it's uh, M-x load-file. it's not like... weird or novel.
2014-05-03T18:44:00Z fifosine: Within the context of emacs it's not novel, but when talking about programs in general I think it is.  The ability from within a program, edit its source and see it's changes is pretty cool.
2014-05-03T18:44:03Z splittist: fifosine: back in the day there were two (not only two, but in this story) approaches to lisp systems. The people on the east coast had small computers, concentrated on compiler bumming, and used source files. The people on the west coast had bigger computers, concentrated on applications.
2014-05-03T18:44:17Z ggole: fifosine: well, most programs are not also editors.
2014-05-03T18:44:28Z nyef: It's been years since I started drinking alcoholic beverages. Today is the first day that I managed to soak a laptop. Most noticeable difference so far is that the fan spun down for a little bit.
2014-05-03T18:44:43Z Bike: mm, liquid cooling, very useful
2014-05-03T18:44:55Z ggole: It's fairly common for applications to be updatable though.
2014-05-03T18:45:05Z nyef: And the reason for the spill is that I hit my glass with the back of my chair when I spun around to focus on something else.
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2014-05-03T18:45:33Z fifosine: ggole: But not from within the context of the program
2014-05-03T18:45:36Z splittist: The people on the east coast out-maneuvered the people on the west coast during the common lisp standardisation process. Ironically, by this time they had the big computers.
2014-05-03T18:46:24Z ggole: fifosine: even from within a program it isn't exactly rare to be able to change various bits
2014-05-03T18:46:52Z fifosine: ggole: I think it's rare.  Can you point to more examples where this is possible?
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2014-05-03T18:47:37Z ggole: Take quake for example: it has a primitive little command interpreter built-in that you can manipulate with the console
2014-05-03T18:48:12Z fifosine: ggole: That's cool.  Can you explain a little more?  I've never heard of that.
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2014-05-03T18:48:24Z ggole: Of course this is a pale shadow of interactivity compared to something like emacs, but the idea is not really that different
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2014-05-03T18:49:21Z p_l: fifosine: significant amounts of gamelogic are often programmed in special-purpose language or an embedded scripting engine, plus for debugging purposes there are often various tools (hidden or not) to inspect and modify state
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2014-05-03T18:49:46Z ggole: fifosine: then there are things like spreadsheets, etc, which often come with scripting hooks
2014-05-03T18:50:09Z ggole: And of course shells
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2014-05-03T18:50:25Z splittist: The people on the west coast had been used to dealing with source code structure that the system would maintain for them - no files involved. The people on the east coast eventually retrofitted the file-based system to do many of the same things.
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2014-05-03T18:51:21Z g3orge: ok I wrote a macro and it works. thanks guys
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2014-05-03T18:52:41Z splittist: This was the magical world of Symbolics. But it was doomed. The orken peoples of New Jersey overran the land with C and Unix, and the beauty of the Lisp Machine was lost. Since that time the people of Common Lisp-land have tried to recapture some of what was possible. Slime hints at this. But there is much that seems lost forever.
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2014-05-03T18:54:48Z stassats: it's just waiting to be reinvented
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2014-05-03T18:56:35Z fifosine: ggole: Is the ability to edit source of the current running process and then load it— is that hotswapping?
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2014-05-03T18:58:21Z ggole: More or less - there's also the connotation that existing code will correctly reference the new version of a redefined construct
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2014-05-03T19:59:49Z macdice is always amazed that redefining functions in running systems with many threads just works without complications
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2014-05-03T20:26:58Z tolk: hello. does ECL have a new maintainer? just curious about ECL's status.
2014-05-03T20:27:18Z H4ns: nobody has stepped up to take over yet.
2014-05-03T20:27:55Z H4ns: i do remember that there was someone expressing interest to become maintainer in this channel, but i don't think they've really done it.
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2014-05-03T20:34:39Z stassats: flip214 did step up some
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2014-05-03T21:10:34Z drmeister: Anyone know of any efficient backquote processing code written in C or C++ for Common Lisp - I translated mine from the appendix of Guy Steele's book into C++ by hand.  It's really, really slow.
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2014-05-03T21:11:12Z Bike: you're writing reader macros in C?
2014-05-03T21:11:21Z drmeister: And Fare tells me that code has a bug and I almost certainly translated the bug as well.
2014-05-03T21:11:43Z drmeister: I have a Common Lisp interpreter written in C++.   I wrote backquote processing in C++.
2014-05-03T21:11:52Z drmeister: It's for bootstrapping.
2014-05-03T21:12:26Z drmeister: I'm bootstrapping with garbage collection and it's a whole new experience of slowness.
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2014-05-03T21:12:45Z Bike: i woulda thought you'd get the lisp reader up asap
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2014-05-03T21:13:19Z drmeister: A slow, non-production, debugging, non-moving garbage collector/allocator with a really slow implementation of backquote processor in C++.   Bleh.
2014-05-03T21:13:33Z drmeister: The lisp reader isn't the problem.  It's the backquote processor.
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2014-05-03T23:29:58Z Xach: https://github.com/marg-do/liserve is not as exciting as i hoped from the title & description
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2014-05-04T00:10:51Z FareTower: in the DIY genre, the empty program is just as impressive
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2014-05-04T00:48:58Z rk[1]: hello lispers.
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2014-05-04T00:49:55Z rk[1]: for function open, does flag :if-does-not-exist :create, create the directory structure as well if it does not exist?
2014-05-04T00:50:52Z rk[1]: i know there is the function ensure-directories-exist; if the previous question is 'nil, then is it customary in this situation to just call this function prior to open?
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2014-05-04T01:13:46Z Bike: rk[1]: i don't think it creates the directory structure and i've never used e-d-e.
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2014-05-04T01:21:01Z rk[1]: Bike: aye aye.
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2014-05-04T01:29:34Z speckle: hi, what's the lowest-latency garbage collector for lisp? is there something good enough for action games?
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2014-05-04T01:31:36Z speckle: alternatively, I'm also looking at this; anyone used it? http://common-lisp.net/project/movitz/
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2014-05-04T01:33:56Z Xach: I've used movitz a bit.
2014-05-04T01:34:18Z speckle: how is it? :)
2014-05-04T01:34:38Z Xach: speckle: there are a few people who work on and discuss writing games in lisp, in (i think) #lispgames. Maybe they can tell you what they know on the topic of GC.
2014-05-04T01:34:53Z Xach: speckle: it's neat. it doesn't do much, but it's neat.
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2014-05-04T01:36:41Z speckle: oh, oops, thanks Xach
2014-05-04T01:36:45Z speckle: what do you mean it doesn't do much?
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2014-05-04T01:40:36Z Xach: I mean that it boots, and you can evaluate some expressions, but it is not complete enough to load existing libraries and use normal development tools like slime.
2014-05-04T01:40:47Z Xach: Last I checked, anyway. And it is not under active development.
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2014-05-04T01:45:05Z Fare: speckle, if you run abcl on an azul jvm, you'll have the lowest latency GC
2014-05-04T01:45:23Z Fare: not that I particularly recommend the setup, of course
2014-05-04T01:46:40Z speckle: I've always wondered about Azul, but it seems shrouded in a veil of secrecy which requires massive cash to pierce
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2014-05-04T01:47:50Z speckle: I see, thanks Xach!  I guess it's a "start" but requires major work to be usable for applications that pull in libraries
2014-05-04T01:48:46Z speckle: Fare, how much do you know about Azul?
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2014-05-04T01:56:06Z spintronic: where do you guys think would be a good place to ask some basic questions about linear temporal logic?
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2014-05-04T02:02:37Z JuanDaugherty: ##prolog is only thing I can think of but don't expect much
2014-05-04T02:03:38Z JuanDaugherty: not the kind of thing that would have a much better irc channel match
2014-05-04T02:05:09Z JuanDaugherty: the question of temporal logics has come up there more than once
2014-05-04T02:06:41Z JuanDaugherty: people will talk about fluent calc and the like here or the main haskell room and other such venues
2014-05-04T02:06:47Z Bike: you might try #esoteric, if you don't mind a billion digressions
2014-05-04T02:07:36Z speckle: would a comp sci channel work?
2014-05-04T02:07:58Z JuanDaugherty: more of groups kind of thing
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2014-05-04T02:10:32Z spintronic: Thanks guys. I'm trying #logic right now.
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2014-05-04T02:12:12Z JuanDaugherty: sorry thought I was in haskell-blah
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2014-05-04T02:26:43Z JuanDaugherty: cl-mpi was once in ql but was dropped?
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2014-05-04T03:55:35Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-05-04T04:28:06Z spintronic: good evening!
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2014-05-04T04:29:11Z beach: Hello spintronic.
2014-05-04T04:30:13Z spintronic: beach: you wouldn't happen to know something about linear temporal logic? Like the stuff described in chapter 12 of this book: http://leeseshia.org/
2014-05-04T04:31:05Z beach: I am afraid I don't.  Sorry.
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2014-05-04T05:47:10Z beach: Can someone walk me through the advantages of class sealing?
2014-05-04T05:49:23Z Bike: it means you can do a lot of dispatch statically, right?
2014-05-04T05:49:48Z beach: Not sure.  That's why I need the walk-through.
2014-05-04T05:50:11Z p_l: I'm not the best to answer that, but essentially, it gives you two things: ABI stability  and easier optimization, both coming from immutability of the classes (and at least in theory, immutability of their ancestry)
2014-05-04T05:50:45Z beach: I thought it meant you can not create subclasses.
2014-05-04T05:52:05Z p_l: that too
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2014-05-04T05:52:24Z Bike: well i mean, for example, NUMBER is generally sealed, so if we imagine + and so on are generic we get the ability to just use fixnum-+ and such in the code
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2014-05-04T05:53:20Z p_l: since there won't be subclasses, when running optimizer you have knowledge of all methods that could happen in various points of code. and thus possibly completely move computation of applicable method to compile time
2014-05-04T05:53:57Z beach: Bike: OK.  I think I understand sealing of some built-in classes, because instances may be represented in a way that makes subclassing impossible.  What about sealing as a feature proposed to the programmer?
2014-05-04T05:54:22Z Bike: representation doesn't matter to what i said, i think
2014-05-04T05:54:39Z Bike: i think i remember a paper about this
2014-05-04T05:54:55Z p_l: beach: Imagine sealing all of CLOS when preparing image for end-user distribution, precomputing as much of dispatch as possible
2014-05-04T05:55:01Z beach: p_l: So you are saying class sealing implies that no method specializing on that class could be added later on any generic function?
2014-05-04T05:56:04Z p_l: that's a possible form of sealing, in my understanding
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2014-05-04T05:56:20Z Bike: Kernel cites Morris, "Types Are Not Sets", for its encapsulation type thingies, which are somewhat sealed
2014-05-04T05:56:41Z beach: p_l: I guess the term was invented in a context where adding a method would require subclassing.
2014-05-04T05:56:43Z p_l: beach: another avenue for optimization is turning all slot accesses into essentially accesses to structure member
2014-05-04T05:56:46Z Bike: oh and there's "A Bisimulation for Dynamic Sealing" by Pierce, i bet that's a good one
2014-05-04T05:58:13Z beach: Bike: Great.  I'll get it.  Thanks.
2014-05-04T05:59:00Z beach: p_l: Yes, I can see that.  Good!
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2014-05-04T06:02:27Z p_l: and yeah, probably significant amount of terminology like "sealed" is going to come from languages that keep data and methods together
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2014-05-04T06:19:49Z beach: Bike: You are right, representation does not matter to what you said.  But I can see why I am not allowed to create a subclass of FIXNUM, because of the way it is represented.  What I am interested in is the performance advantages of allowing a programmer to seal a standard class.
2014-05-04T06:20:07Z beach: This is all in the context of my paper on generic dispatch.
2014-05-04T06:20:31Z Bike: well i mean, you can imagine analogous things, surely? like making a matrix standard-class and wanting to seal it for various dispatching
2014-05-04T06:21:31Z beach: Bike: Yes, I can imagine that.  Except that the method I propose in the paper is so cheap that I need to know whether sealing is still advantageous for performance reasons in that context.
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2014-05-04T06:21:48Z Bike: i suppose that's where testing comes in :P
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2014-05-04T06:23:01Z beach: Well, unless I take advantage of sealing somehow for optimization, tests will not give me any additional information.  So I need to know what kind of additional optimizations sealing can permit.
2014-05-04T06:23:26Z Bike: static dispatch?
2014-05-04T06:23:54Z p_l: beach: well, advantages in inlined slot accesses for cases where you have lot of related-but-different classes implementing some graph, for example?
2014-05-04T06:24:07Z beach: Bike: Possibly, yes.
2014-05-04T06:24:37Z beach: p_l: Yes, inlined slot access is definitely a candidate.
2014-05-04T06:24:51Z p_l: as for ABI - you might want to stop anyone from messing with a class when it represents something external to Lisp image (mmap()ed data?), though I guess changing a metaclass should be enough
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2014-05-04T06:25:31Z beach: p_l: Yes, I can understand the safety argument.  Right now I am interested in performance.
2014-05-04T06:28:05Z erikc: beach: sealing can let you use constant time table dispatch
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2014-05-04T06:28:32Z beach: erikc: Except my technique is faster than constant-time table dispatch :)
2014-05-04T06:29:13Z erikc: your technique is faster than loading an address and branching there?
2014-05-04T06:29:23Z beach: erikc: Furthermore, you can still do that without sealing as long as you recompute the tables when the class hierarchy changes.
2014-05-04T06:29:35Z beach: erikc: Yes.
2014-05-04T06:32:01Z beach: erikc: table-based methods are impractical if every generic function has to have an n-dimensional matrix of all the classes, so some compression technique is required.  Either hashing like PCL does, or some other technique that requires several memory accesses.
2014-05-04T06:32:44Z beach: erikc: And my technique does not require any memory access, except for figuring out the classes of the arguments.
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2014-05-04T06:34:37Z erikc: what was the link to your paper, i think i  saw it go by yesterday
2014-05-04T06:35:15Z beach: http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf
2014-05-04T06:35:23Z beach: Still not finished.
2014-05-04T06:35:30Z beach: But the essence is in there.
2014-05-04T06:36:29Z erikc: there isnt really anything sealing lets you do that a sufficiently smart JIT compiler couldnt do
2014-05-04T06:36:55Z beach: erikc: Ah!  That's exactly what I wanted to hear! :)
2014-05-04T06:37:29Z erikc: but sealing is a nice lever for guaranteeing performance characteristics
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2014-05-04T06:38:09Z beach: OK, I can perhaps imagine that.
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2014-05-04T06:38:39Z Krystof: beach: your paper is interesting.  It's too early in the morning for me to be sure about this, but there might be a flaw in your SICL simulated slot reader
2014-05-04T06:38:55Z beach: Krystof: I am all ears.
2014-05-04T06:39:19Z Krystof: I think you need to check at every call whether the instance that you are accessing is non-obsolete
2014-05-04T06:39:50Z Krystof: in your DEFUN Y, you do (if (= stamp 10) ...)
2014-05-04T06:40:00Z beach: Krystof: No, in fact I don't.  The stamp /= the class number when a class has been updated, so dispatch will fail in the same way as PCL dispatch will fail.
2014-05-04T06:40:18Z Krystof: which checks whether the instance that you've been given matches the class number at the time of the slot accessor definition
2014-05-04T06:40:29Z beach: Yes.
2014-05-04T06:40:56Z Krystof: so, if you redefine the class, new instances get a higher stamp and that gets caught
2014-05-04T06:41:03Z beach: Yes.
2014-05-04T06:41:17Z Krystof: but if you have an old instance and you pass it to Y, that obsolescence is not caught
2014-05-04T06:41:20Z beach: Or at least a stamp that is nowhere used.  Higher is not important.
2014-05-04T06:41:43Z beach: Krystof: Yes, it's a simulation.  Y would no longer exist if class 10 were updated.
2014-05-04T06:41:50Z beach: So it would be caught by the error.
2014-05-04T06:42:10Z Krystof: what's the mechanism for redefining Y on class 10 redefinition?
2014-05-04T06:42:48Z beach: Invalidate the entries in the call history.  Set the discriminating function to "recompute"  or to a new one computed from the new call history.
2014-05-04T06:43:12Z Krystof: ah, right, end of section 3
2014-05-04T06:43:16Z beach: Yes.
2014-05-04T06:43:38Z beach: BTW, it is easy to get lazy discriminating functions as you have suggested.
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2014-05-04T06:43:49Z beach: Just set it to "recompute" when the class changes.
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2014-05-04T06:44:14Z beach: Er, that should be when a method is added to a GF.
2014-05-04T06:44:27Z Krystof: I think it's worth making clear that there's a potential unbounded cost to class redefinition uner your scheme, because that's a clear difference between it and PCL
2014-05-04T06:44:58Z beach: Hmm.  It ought to be the same.
2014-05-04T06:45:19Z beach: PCL invalidates class wrappers.  I invalidate stamps.
2014-05-04T06:45:23Z beach: No?
2014-05-04T06:45:32Z Krystof: PCL invalidates class wrappers but not actively
2014-05-04T06:45:43Z Krystof: the wrapper (a single object) is invalidated
2014-05-04T06:46:12Z Krystof: you remove entries from an unbounded number of generic function call histories
2014-05-04T06:46:16Z beach: After redefinition, the hash lookup must fail for an obsolete wrapper, no?
2014-05-04T06:46:35Z Krystof: yes, but that happens incrementally, when those generic functions are called
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2014-05-04T06:47:13Z beach: If so, then the GF must contain a test somehow.
2014-05-04T06:47:18Z beach: Or am I missing something?
2014-05-04T06:47:43Z Krystof: the obsolete wrappers get given hash values of 0, which in the cache lookup never match
2014-05-04T06:47:54Z beach: Oh, OK.  Got it.
2014-05-04T06:47:58Z Krystof: so instances with those wrappers trap
2014-05-04T06:47:59Z beach: Yes, I should point this out.
2014-05-04T06:48:12Z beach: Yes, yes.  I understand.
2014-05-04T06:48:14Z Krystof: ok
2014-05-04T06:48:42Z Krystof: good stuff
2014-05-04T06:48:46Z beach: Thanks!
2014-05-04T06:49:11Z beach: ... and VERY FAST! :)
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2014-05-04T06:50:03Z beach: Krystof: Did you see my question to stassats about implementing it for SBCL?
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2014-05-04T06:50:15Z beach: It was nyef who asked, and I didn't know the answer.
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2014-05-04T06:51:16Z beach: I don't know enough about SBCL internals to have an opinion.
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2014-05-04T07:14:44Z erikc: beach: so you’re basically trading off dcache misses for icache misses + branch mispredictions
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2014-05-04T07:18:30Z beach: erikc: Yes, you can put it that way.
2014-05-04T07:20:56Z beach: Krystof: So does the PCL wrapper-invalidation method require hash seeds to be odd?  Otherwise, taking the hash seed modulo 2^k might yield 0.
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2014-05-04T07:23:22Z erikc: would be interesting to see how many specializations you can have before table lookups win, whether its more than any program would likely have
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2014-05-04T07:23:58Z beach: That is what I am betting, though even if it is not true, the vast majority of generic functions will have few specializations.
2014-05-04T07:24:24Z beach: Nothing prevents me from switching to table-based lookup if too many comparisons are required.
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2014-05-04T07:27:05Z beach: And like I said, table lookup, while constant-time, in practice requires compression of the tables, so more computation and more memory accesses are required.
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2014-05-04T07:27:16Z pjb: minion: memo for g3orge: you may want to read https://www.informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#Lisp-Paradoxes in particular: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/-dL9iqvBWgk/uhevTzXjpmEJ
2014-05-04T07:27:16Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell g3orge when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-05-04T07:28:36Z Bike: hm, firefox says informatigo has a bad cert
2014-05-04T07:29:05Z beach: Yes, I get the same.
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2014-05-04T07:30:43Z pjb: minion: memo for g3orge: note that you should better write a function that returns your prepended list rather than a macro, and write (setf acc (prepend acc new-head)); If you want you can (define-modify-macro prependf (tail new-head)  prepend) so you may write (prependf acc new-head).  cf. com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.list:prepend and prependf.
2014-05-04T07:30:43Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell g3orge when he/she/it next speaks.
2014-05-04T07:31:07Z pjb: I've not renewed it since heartbleed.
2014-05-04T07:31:15Z pjb: Perhaps I should remove it entirely.
2014-05-04T07:32:04Z pjb: Anyways, it's a cert created by an Israelian company for $free.  I'd trust it even less than a cert created by a USA company…
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2014-05-04T08:24:42Z pjb: minion: memo for fifosine: ASDF does that, hotswapping a new version when it finds an old one.
2014-05-04T08:24:42Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell fifosine when he/she/it next speaks.
2014-05-04T08:26:06Z beach: pjb: Busy reading the logs I see.
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2014-05-04T08:27:42Z pjb: Yep.  Since those poor people didn't get any (good) answers…
2014-05-04T08:30:34Z splittist: I thought my was entertaining, at least (:
2014-05-04T08:30:43Z pjb: ggole: most programs are also text editor.  Quick, name one (interactive) program that doesn't let you edit input text?
2014-05-04T08:31:47Z splittist: A teleconferencing system.
2014-05-04T08:31:53Z ggole: Typing text into a dialog doesn't make a text editor
2014-05-04T08:32:12Z ggole: (And all of the editing logic is pulled out into libraries anyway.)
2014-05-04T08:32:17Z Krystof: beach: there's an explicit test for 0 before reducing mod size-of-cache
2014-05-04T08:33:03Z beach: AHA!  Another test!
2014-05-04T08:33:06Z beach: :)
2014-05-04T08:33:32Z Krystof: also, you might not know (because it's not mentioned in Kizcales & Rodruigez) that PCL also has "dispatch" generic functions which are much closer to your scheme
2014-05-04T08:33:55Z beach: Right, I haven't read the code.
2014-05-04T08:34:04Z beach: What do they do?
2014-05-04T08:34:06Z Krystof: implemented with typep tests rather than number comparisons
2014-05-04T08:34:12Z beach: Ouch!
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2014-05-04T08:34:21Z beach: But I'll add it to the paper.
2014-05-04T08:34:32Z Krystof: but the flip side is that they're used when most of the classes involved are built-in classes, so the typep tests can be efficient
2014-05-04T08:34:44Z beach: Sure.
2014-05-04T08:34:59Z beach: Thanks for letting me know.  I will definitely document it.
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2014-05-04T08:35:23Z Krystof: to be honest I don't remember the details of the implementation myself
2014-05-04T08:35:24Z beach: Krystof: One more thing.  Is it OK to acknowledge your feedback in the paper?
2014-05-04T08:35:27Z Krystof: sure
2014-05-04T08:35:35Z beach: Great!  Thanks!
2014-05-04T08:36:22Z beach: I find it interesting that SBCL/PCL still seems to beat every other method, though I haven't tested LispWorks yet.
2014-05-04T08:36:35Z pjb: minion: memo for drmeister: you don't really need backquote for bootstrapping. You can easily use list and append instead ;-)
2014-05-04T08:36:35Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell drmeister when he/she/it next speaks.
2014-05-04T08:36:36Z beach: And I am not 100% sure about my test for Allegro.
2014-05-04T08:37:14Z p_l: might be interesting to test LW that was run through their "CLOS training" thing
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2014-05-04T08:37:39Z pjb: ggole: but the point of the emacs architecture, is that you can have your cake and eat it, by having an event dispatch loop with key commands that implement an editor AND your application with dialogs, and menus, etc.
2014-05-04T08:37:54Z beach: p_l: what is the "CLOS training" thing?
2014-05-04T08:38:03Z pjb: ggole: there was some works IIRC, to make a libemacs.so :-)
2014-05-04T08:38:42Z p_l: beach: iirc, either LW or ACL has an optimization mode when dumping images for distribution where it tries to precompute dispatch tables
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2014-05-04T08:38:49Z p_l: kinda like profile-guided optimization
2014-05-04T08:38:49Z ggole: pjb: mmm, it would be nice to have civilized editing in every program (at least, every program that uses standard libraries for editing facilities)
2014-05-04T08:39:56Z beach: p_l: Ah, I see.  Yes, interesting, but I don't have access to those implementations.  Maybe in a followup paper once I also have data from SICL itself.
2014-05-04T08:40:33Z p_l: beach: I think both Franz and LW might dispense with a license for such study...
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2014-05-04T08:41:29Z beach: p_l: Interesting thought.  Still, it shall have to wait.  I have 2 more papers to write in the next 2 weeks.
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2014-05-04T08:46:18Z pjb: ggole: anyways, the emacs architecture was an outlier in the unix world of batch programs, but this is the basic architecture of all GUI application, from Smalltalk to iOS.  The only difference is that in an emacs, the dispatching is not hardwired, but goes thru a keymap table that can be possibly changed dynamically by the evaluation of a command in the application itself.
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2014-05-04T08:57:58Z Krystof: there is a precomputation mode in sbcl somewhere too
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2014-05-04T09:01:23Z splittist: This may well be out of date, but interesting nevertheless http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/DV/html/deluser-168.htm
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2014-05-04T09:02:22Z splittist: And this http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lcl50/aug/aug-183.html
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2014-05-04T09:07:54Z beach: splittist: Yes, interesting.  Thanks!
2014-05-04T09:07:59Z wbooze: morning
2014-05-04T09:08:14Z beach: Hello wbooze.
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2014-05-04T09:11:24Z rk[1]: morning?! heh, /me hasn't gone to sleep yet.
2014-05-04T09:11:59Z rk[1]: too busy lisping.
2014-05-04T09:12:09Z p_l: ... I'm not sure when I slept normally last time
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2014-05-04T09:24:04Z beach remains amazed by the endless fascination induced by the existence of different time zones.
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2014-05-04T09:25:56Z p_l: ... there's only one
2014-05-04T09:26:49Z beach: Was it splittist who decided at some point that it is always morning in #lisp?
2014-05-04T09:27:53Z pjb: Since that's the first thing lispers do when awakening, yes, it's always morning in #lisp! :-)
2014-05-04T09:30:18Z splittist: I think that it's the #dylan convention. I have advocated it, yes (:
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2014-05-04T09:46:42Z beach: brucem: Did you mean that starting at section 6, things are not implemented?
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2014-05-04T10:09:53Z ck_: sigh, I'm blanking on something basic. How do I (declare (type <standard-class> var))? What's the correct type specifier?
2014-05-04T10:10:32Z ck_: declaim even.
2014-05-04T10:12:02Z ck_: also, by var I mean symbol. just ignore me, I'll go get some coffee first..
2014-05-04T10:14:07Z beach ignores.
2014-05-04T10:15:09Z rk[1] finished xis commits
2014-05-04T10:15:14Z rk[1]: i think its time for bed...
2014-05-04T10:16:25Z rk[1]: beach: you know, i was thinking recently it would be interesting to see the local time by every nick
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2014-05-04T10:17:12Z ck_: I was just thinking that too. There's probably an ircd module that does that, maybe for the zone of the server you connect to
2014-05-04T10:17:23Z rk[1]: aye
2014-05-04T10:17:34Z rk[1]: but the issue there is many people don't connect directly
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2014-05-04T10:17:53Z rk[1]: hiding behind a endless sea of proxies
2014-05-04T10:18:12Z rk[1]: actually, now that i think about it
2014-05-04T10:18:26Z rk[1]: i connect via a box 3 hours ahead of me in time.
2014-05-04T10:18:32Z p_l: /CTCP TIME
2014-05-04T10:18:50Z p_l: also, probably majority of good servers will show UTC
2014-05-04T10:20:49Z ck_: 1220 so one could do it like this and annoy practically everybody
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2014-05-04T10:25:15Z rk[1]: 03:25 heh
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2014-05-04T10:32:28Z pjb: The localtime of the nick doesn't mean much.  Further, it wouldn't deal with eg. Mars time zones.  Some people work on Mars time, and at the different Mars time zone where their devices are, at that!  If they use irc, they'd have to be tagged with a Martian time zone.
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2014-05-04T10:33:57Z ck_: .. so we need stardates then?
2014-05-04T10:34:51Z ck_: considering the possibly relativistic speeds at which lisp code could travel through the universe, sometime in the future. Best not to underspecify this.
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2014-05-04T10:39:18Z rk[1]: at something so complex, i must retreat in to my bed
2014-05-04T10:39:35Z rk[1]: happy ()ing.
2014-05-04T10:39:44Z ck_: I wish you'd have prefixed that with "Captains log .."
2014-05-04T10:39:48Z ck_: good morning ;)
2014-05-04T10:40:04Z rk[1]: ha and haha
2014-05-04T10:40:25Z rk[1]: you know, i am almost considering, the consideratin that it *could* be morning
2014-05-04T10:40:32Z rk[1]: and just drink a coffee and eat some breakfast.
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2014-05-04T10:40:59Z ck_: I advise against it. That's almost never a good idea
2014-05-04T10:41:19Z rk[1]: _almost_ means there's hope.
2014-05-04T10:42:03Z ck_: it is also terribly off topic. I'll shut up now before someone stabs me over the internet.
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2014-05-04T10:51:33Z pjb: ck_: just consider the GPS network.
2014-05-04T10:52:35Z pjb: also, given that the gravity on the surface of Earth and of Mars is not the same, 1 second on Mars is not the synchronous with 1 second on Earth.
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2014-05-04T10:56:44Z beach suspect #lisp participants are bored, but can't figure out why, given the amount of work to be done.
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2014-05-04T11:00:08Z ck_: I just demonstrated my complete ineptitude with a simple task like "forward declaring something to be a class". Do you really want me to touch anything of value right now? _o_
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2014-05-04T11:00:55Z beach: ck_: I'll wait until you wake up :)
2014-05-04T11:01:22Z ck_: ;)
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2014-05-04T11:02:31Z ck_: I'll note for the record that, of course, the problem was solved by correcting the compilation order which somebody forgot to do after refactoring.
2014-05-04T11:04:02Z splittist starts to cook steak and, inspired by beach, pours glass of St Julien
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2014-05-04T11:38:52Z leo2007: who is this WJ on c.l.l?
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2014-05-04T11:55:38Z pjb: leo2007: a bad bot.
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2014-05-04T12:03:05Z hitecnologys: Is there a way to make slime load specific core image without editing config variables?
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2014-05-04T12:03:44Z hitecnologys: I'd say without touching as one can also lexically bind them.
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2014-05-04T12:06:25Z pjb: C-u M-x slime RET
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2014-05-04T12:08:14Z hitecnologys: pjb: nice, thanks.
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2014-05-04T12:35:45Z CrazyWoods: Is lisp suitable for gui programming?
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2014-05-04T12:37:21Z pjb: CrazyWoods: don't you know that Interface Builder was originally written in Lisp by Jean-Marie Hullot?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interface_Builder
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2014-05-04T12:38:52Z CrazyWoods: pjb: yes, i know
2014-05-04T12:39:07Z CrazyWoods: pjb: but rewrite with objc
2014-05-04T12:39:16Z pjb: That made it worse, of course.
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2014-05-04T12:39:50Z CrazyWoods: pjb: made it worse?
2014-05-04T12:39:56Z pjb: A lot of projects when reaching enterprises get rewritten in other languages than Lisp, always at extraordinary cost, and increase of programming teams (which explain why).
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2014-05-04T12:40:31Z CrazyWoods: pjb: i see
2014-05-04T12:40:35Z rszeno: is a problem of management not of language
2014-05-04T12:40:40Z pjb: Eg. ViaWeb was written in Common Lisp by Paul Graham and a couple of cofounders, and when sold to Yahoo!, they rewrote it in C++, with an army of code monkeys, and couldn't implement all the features.
2014-05-04T12:40:41Z CrazyWoods: pjb: then why they rewrite?
2014-05-04T12:41:07Z pjb: They had decided on Objective-C before finding Interface Builder.
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2014-05-04T12:41:19Z pjb: Ie. purely a management question.
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2014-05-04T12:41:30Z JuanDaugherty: CrazyWoods, I prefer to avoid lisp GUI.
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2014-05-04T12:41:47Z JuanDaugherty: I see it as a backend lang
2014-05-04T12:41:53Z pjb: And what poor programmer would refuse a contract to do some bullshit rewriting for $millions, instead of telling them to just use lisp…
2014-05-04T12:41:58Z JuanDaugherty: rather do GUI in squeak
2014-05-04T12:42:20Z pjb: GUI was invented in lisp!
2014-05-04T12:42:24Z JuanDaugherty: or js if not desktop
2014-05-04T12:42:25Z rszeno: why squeak and not tcl/tk?
2014-05-04T12:42:26Z pjb: Smalltalk was invented in lips!
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2014-05-04T12:43:42Z JuanDaugherty: rszeno, personal pref, first gui and oop was in st 30 years ago
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2014-05-04T12:44:50Z CrazyWoods: what about cross platform gui programming?
2014-05-04T12:45:08Z JuanDaugherty: squeak runs on all common platforms
2014-05-04T12:45:17Z pjb: JuanDaugherty: wrong.  First GUI and OO were in invented long before Smalltalk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos
2014-05-04T12:45:21Z rszeno: fish with wings, doesn't swimm and doesn't fly, ;)
2014-05-04T12:45:33Z JuanDaugherty: pjb, I was referring to my career
2014-05-04T12:45:38Z pjb: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simula
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2014-05-04T12:46:18Z JuanDaugherty: yes, I know as it happens I was systems programmer in a burroughs shop right before the job with ST
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2014-05-04T12:46:41Z CrazyWoods: pjb: you means rewrite it is a management problem not language performance etc... stuff?
2014-05-04T12:46:53Z JuanDaugherty: so was doing algol and simula, learning of ST all occured in that '84 time frame then used next year
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2014-05-04T12:47:25Z pjb: Yes.
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2014-05-04T12:48:40Z CrazyWoods: pjb: what are you use lisp mainly for?
2014-05-04T12:48:49Z CrazyWoods: pjb: GUI or website
2014-05-04T12:48:51Z JuanDaugherty: pjb, yeah in the time frame of the MOAD, lisp systems would have predominated, been what there was
2014-05-04T12:49:13Z JuanDaugherty: or was about to be
2014-05-04T12:49:13Z pjb: Currently, I'm implementing the MCL GUI on Cocoa to have applications written in MCL such as Patchwork run on CCL on Cocoa.
2014-05-04T12:49:26Z pjb: I use lisp mainly for everything.
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2014-05-04T12:50:42Z CrazyWoods: JuanDaugherty: you do gui programming using squeak?
2014-05-04T12:50:42Z JuanDaugherty: so ur a proud monoglot
2014-05-04T12:50:56Z pjb: Not really, no.
2014-05-04T12:51:02Z CrazyWoods: JuanDaugherty: what about the performance?
2014-05-04T12:51:23Z CrazyWoods: pjb: then which gui toolkit do you suggest?
2014-05-04T12:51:34Z JuanDaugherty: CrazyWoods, I'm a self employed professional programmer. I've done GUI programming in many contexts. Most recently AngularJS and yes of course ST too.
2014-05-04T12:51:41Z rszeno: is closer to c, somtime faster, but depend of who write the code
2014-05-04T12:52:47Z JuanDaugherty: CrazyWoods, when performance is a concern I use c/c++.
2014-05-04T12:53:47Z CrazyWoods: rszeno: squeak?
2014-05-04T12:53:59Z rszeno: no, lisp
2014-05-04T12:54:20Z CrazyWoods: rszeno: include gui toolkit?
2014-05-04T12:54:47Z CrazyWoods: JuanDaugherty: what are you mainly for website or desktop
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2014-05-04T12:54:54Z rszeno: not me but this doesn't mean that can't be done
2014-05-04T12:55:29Z JuanDaugherty: CrazyWoods, query unclear, I'm an actual animal, not an automation.
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2014-05-04T12:56:17Z CrazyWoods: JuanDaugherty: ok
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2014-05-04T12:56:55Z CrazyWoods: I want to create a game editor for my game engine, looking for gui toolkit
2014-05-04T12:56:59Z JuanDaugherty: squeak does both, if that was question but I don't use it yet for web
2014-05-04T12:57:34Z JuanDaugherty: typically games are using standard GUIs with whatever engine like unity
2014-05-04T12:57:53Z JuanDaugherty: Qt, OpenGl, Gtk, etc., etc.
2014-05-04T12:58:42Z CrazyWoods: JuanDaugherty: yes
2014-05-04T12:58:44Z JuanDaugherty: in your position I'd go with whatever worked best with the engine I'm working with
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2014-05-04T13:05:26Z JuanDaugherty: "proud monoglot" isn't meant as a slight or anything
2014-05-04T13:05:59Z JuanDaugherty: I'm an extreme polyglot, but I don't think there's anything wrong with sticking to one lang as long as ur not small about it and dis the others without grounding
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2014-05-04T13:11:36Z CrazyWoods: JuanDaugherty: some language do it quick and less pain
2014-05-04T13:12:34Z rszeno: CrazyWoods, speed and pain come from knowing or not how to do it
2014-05-04T13:13:26Z CrazyWoods: rszeno: :)
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2014-05-04T13:20:09Z JuanDaugherty: CrazyWoods, in my experience and current practice I do the langs, they don't do me
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2014-05-04T13:21:50Z JuanDaugherty: i.e. me or much of anything else, without the aforesaid actual whole animals
2014-05-04T13:22:36Z CrazyWoods: JuanDaugherty: :)
2014-05-04T13:23:14Z JuanDaugherty: :)
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2014-05-04T13:26:56Z stassats: beach: therep
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2014-05-04T13:59:42Z pjb: CrazyWoods: I can't advice any GUI toolkit, the constraints deciding on the one you will have to choose being too arbitrary.
2014-05-04T14:00:03Z pjb: If you want a generic answer, I'd say: write your own! (NIH).
2014-05-04T14:00:19Z pjb: But of course, this the very last choice.
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2014-05-04T14:14:13Z loke_: Web-based
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2014-05-04T15:02:31Z kuanyui: Any simple way to concat elements in lists(length are the same) like this? e.g. '("a" "b" "c") '("1" "2" "3") => ("a1" "b2" "c3")
2014-05-04T15:04:04Z Bike: (mapcar (lambda (&rest r) (apply #'concatenate 'string r)) ...)
2014-05-04T15:04:06Z ggole: (mapcar (lambda (a b) (concatenate 'string a b)) (list "a" "b") (list "1" "2"))
2014-05-04T15:04:29Z ggole: Bike's version is a bit more general.
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2014-05-04T15:15:30Z kuanyui: Hmmm....This method is unavailable in Emacs lisp @_@ its mapcar only accpet one SEQUENCE...
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2014-05-04T15:17:11Z ggole: (map 'list ...) then
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2014-05-04T15:17:20Z ggole: Or (cl-map 'list ...), or whatever it is now
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2014-05-04T15:18:53Z kuanyui: Wow! it works, cool!
2014-05-04T15:20:45Z kuanyui: I didn't think up the usage of map like this.  Thanks!
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2014-05-04T15:41:11Z pjb: kuanyui: (require 'cl) (mapcar* (lambda (&rest r) (apply #'concatenate 'string r)) ...)
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2014-05-04T17:17:31Z CrazyWoods: pjb: are you there?
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2014-05-04T17:26:50Z Poenikatu: Hi! I've written a function which has both &rest and &key in the lambda list. When I call it with one keyword argument I get a peculiar error. The details are at http://paste.lisp.org/+31V8. Could you look at this and tell me what I've done wrong?
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2014-05-04T17:28:08Z Sir_herrbatka: hey guys
2014-05-04T17:28:23Z Poenikatu: Sir_herrbatka: hey!
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2014-05-04T17:28:52Z Sir_herrbatka: is there any derivate calculation software written in lisp with source code avaible?
2014-05-04T17:29:08Z Sir_herrbatka: Poenikatu: hi, i'm afraid that i can't help you here
2014-05-04T17:29:15Z Poenikatu: Sir_herrbatka: derivate?
2014-05-04T17:29:31Z Sir_herrbatka: derivatives?
2014-05-04T17:29:39Z Sir_herrbatka: yes
2014-05-04T17:29:45Z Sir_herrbatka: that would be it ;-)
2014-05-04T17:29:53Z Poenikatu: Sir_herrbatka: Hm, still not with you on that.
2014-05-04T17:29:56Z H4ns: Poenikatu: you need to supply the optional argument if you want to supply any keywords.
2014-05-04T17:29:59Z Sir_herrbatka: sorry, i'm not native speaker
2014-05-04T17:30:39Z Poenikatu: H4ns: I agree, but isn't the argument following the :out keyword an optional argument?
2014-05-04T17:30:41Z Snardbafulators: To say semen in Yucatec Maya, you can say 'the atole that comes from the penis" or rather, "sa'il keep".  another option is to say 'dick juice' or rather, "u ka'ab toon". Chimpout Forum encourages you to learn about Mayan culture with La Gruta del alux! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1CCdwTW0ya
2014-05-04T17:30:41Z Snardbafulators: Chimpout Forum is a multicultural and multiracial humanistic movement with the mission to combat the feral negroid beast!  Join Chimpout Forum today! http://www.chimpout.com/forum
2014-05-04T17:30:41Z Snardbafulators: Chimpout Forum now has an official home on Chatkrews! Connect to irc.chatkre.ws +31337 via ssl and join us in the channels #chatkrew and #chimpout
2014-05-04T17:31:07Z Sir_herrbatka: Poenikatu: in the book structure and interpretation of computer programs, there is a chapter like this
2014-05-04T17:31:16Z Sir_herrbatka: but book is writteen in scheme
2014-05-04T17:31:30Z Poenikatu: Sir_herrbatka: Like what?
2014-05-04T17:31:34Z Sir_herrbatka: and i have some problems understanding this chapter
2014-05-04T17:31:46Z Sir_herrbatka: Poenikatu: about simple derivatives calculator
2014-05-04T17:32:03Z Sir_herrbatka: as any example of symbolic calculations
2014-05-04T17:32:06Z Poenikatu: Sir_herrbatka: Ditto concerning your first msg to me
2014-05-04T17:32:17Z Sir_herrbatka: ah, ok
2014-05-04T17:32:23Z Sir_herrbatka: nvm
2014-05-04T17:32:24Z |3b|: Poenikatu: &rest is all remaining arguments including &key args. &key processing starts at same place as &rest list
2014-05-04T17:32:40Z Poenikatu: Sir_herrbatka: I'm reading PAIP by Peter Norvig: he deals with symbolic computation
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2014-05-04T17:33:08Z Sir_herrbatka: Poenikatu: is that a good book?
2014-05-04T17:33:15Z chu: It's decent, a bit dated now.
2014-05-04T17:33:20Z Poenikatu: Sir_herrbatka: Reputedly so.
2014-05-04T17:33:41Z Sir_herrbatka: hmm, i will try to find it, thanks
2014-05-04T17:34:04Z Sir_herrbatka: chu: the topic is fundamental, so i don't think books will age badly
2014-05-04T17:34:39Z Poenikatu: Sir_herrbatka: The full title is "Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp"
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2014-05-04T17:34:50Z Sir_herrbatka: 80s?
2014-05-04T17:34:56Z chu: Early 90s I think
2014-05-04T17:35:07Z Poenikatu: Published 1992
2014-05-04T17:35:14Z chu: Yep
2014-05-04T17:35:18Z beach: Poenikatu: I could use your help to run a test on LispWorks.
2014-05-04T17:35:24Z beach: Would that be OK with you?
2014-05-04T17:35:39Z Poenikatu: The author is now head of research at Google
2014-05-04T17:35:49Z Poenikatu: beach: Sure
2014-05-04T17:36:14Z Sir_herrbatka: Poenikatu: and now he teaches computer networks how to recognize cats? ;-)
2014-05-04T17:36:17Z beach: What kind of computer do you run it on?
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2014-05-04T17:36:37Z Sir_herrbatka: eeeh i wish i could do something that interesting someday
2014-05-04T17:36:44Z Poenikatu: Sir_herrbatka: What have cats got to do with Google, Peter Norvig and CL?
2014-05-04T17:36:51Z oleo: lol
2014-05-04T17:36:54Z Poenikatu: beach: Debian GNU/Linux i386
2014-05-04T17:37:07Z beach: Hmm, OK, I think that will do. :)
2014-05-04T17:37:19Z beach: Poenikatu: Shall we discuss your problem first?
2014-05-04T17:37:25Z Poenikatu: beach: Ok
2014-05-04T17:37:52Z Sir_herrbatka: Poenikatu: didn't you heared that google had project that resoulted in a computer system that is able to analise semantic content?
2014-05-04T17:38:09Z Sir_herrbatka: from youtube videos
2014-05-04T17:38:10Z Poenikatu: Sir_herrbatka: No
2014-05-04T17:38:11Z beach: Poenikatu: There are no optional parameters in your lambda list.
2014-05-04T17:38:29Z Poenikatu: beach: Agreed.
2014-05-04T17:38:45Z beach: Poenikatu: So anything you supply after the required argument must be pairs of keywords and values.
2014-05-04T17:39:22Z Sir_herrbatka: Poenikatu: it was able to construct cat semantics on it's own
2014-05-04T17:39:23Z beach: Poenikatu: Therefore, there must be an odd number of arguments, the required one, and the paris.
2014-05-04T17:39:27Z Poenikatu: beach: I have one required argument: `prog'. 'args' are optional.
2014-05-04T17:39:32Z beach: No
2014-05-04T17:39:36Z Sir_herrbatka: it is pretty amazing actually
2014-05-04T17:39:39Z beach: args are not optional
2014-05-04T17:39:45Z beach: args are &rest.
2014-05-04T17:40:04Z beach: args is a variable that will hold (in this case) all the remaining pairs keyword/value.
2014-05-04T17:40:33Z beach: Like I said, there are no optional parameters here.  Only keyword parameters.
2014-05-04T17:41:05Z Poenikatu: beach: Hm. I want to be able to call `x' with a prog and any number of arguments (possibly none) followed by two possible keyword/value pairs. What lambda list should I use?
2014-05-04T17:41:15Z beach: If you call it like this: (x 234 :out 22 :in 234 :out 444) then args will contain (:out 22 :in 234 :out 444)
2014-05-04T17:41:30Z beach: Poenikatu: You can't express that.
2014-05-04T17:41:53Z Poenikatu: beach: Why not?
2014-05-04T17:41:54Z beach: You would have to put the "any number of arguments" in a list.
2014-05-04T17:42:22Z beach: Poenikatu: Not sure what to tell you.  Lisp was designed the way it was, and there is no way to express it.
2014-05-04T17:42:53Z Poenikatu: So, '(defun x (prog (args) &key in out)'?
2014-05-04T17:43:14Z beach: Poenikatu: There is nothing special about keyword arguments.  They are just ordinary arguments.  So there would be no way to distinguish between a member of your "any number of arguments" and the keyword arguments.
2014-05-04T17:43:30Z beach: No, (defun x (prog args &key in out) ...)
2014-05-04T17:43:40Z Poenikatu: beach: Except that keyword arguments are always preceded by a keyword
2014-05-04T17:44:02Z beach: Then (x "ls" (list "/usr/share/doc" "/stuff/thing") :out 234)
2014-05-04T17:44:07Z Bike: the keywords can be any symbol, actually
2014-05-04T17:44:12Z Poenikatu: beach: And, in your example, I could test args to be a list?
2014-05-04T17:44:26Z beach: Poenikatu: That is exactly what it is.
2014-05-04T17:44:36Z beach: args is another required parameter, and I pass it a list.
2014-05-04T17:44:47Z Poenikatu: Bike: Yes, but have you ever specified a keyword that wasn't preceded by a colon?
2014-05-04T17:44:55Z Vivitron: clhs 3.4.1.4
2014-05-04T17:44:55Z specbot: Specifiers for keyword parameters: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_dad.htm
2014-05-04T17:45:08Z Bike: nah, just saying it wouldn't be adequate for parsing to assume keywords
2014-05-04T17:45:13Z beach: Poenikatu: In my example, args would contain ("/usr/share/doc" "/stuff/thing").
2014-05-04T17:45:17Z Bike: especially since you can pass keywords by themselves, of course
2014-05-04T17:45:21Z Vivitron: the first paragraph there specifies the interaction between &rest and &key
2014-05-04T17:45:21Z Poenikatu: Vivitron: Did you remember 3.4.1.4 off by heart?
2014-05-04T17:45:35Z Vivitron: no, I looked it up
2014-05-04T17:45:37Z Poenikatu: beach: I shall do as you gave. Looks good.
2014-05-04T17:46:21Z beach: For the small favor, I need you to do two things.
2014-05-04T17:46:26Z beach: 1. Run a test
2014-05-04T17:46:32Z Poenikatu: beach: Arf a mo
2014-05-04T17:46:37Z beach: 2. Determine the exact clock frequency of your computer.
2014-05-04T17:46:49Z Poenikatu: Vivitron: I've got it displayed and I'll check it soon. Thanks
2014-05-04T17:46:54Z beach: The test can be found here: http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf
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2014-05-04T17:47:19Z beach: Define a class and an instance, and the function f.  Then run (time (f)).
2014-05-04T17:47:32Z beach: [and make sure F is compiled]
2014-05-04T17:48:14Z Vivitron: Poenikatu: It doesn't solve your problem (I might use beach's solution), it just specifies the behavior you saw.
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2014-05-04T17:49:11Z Poenikatu: beach: I cannot get that link
2014-05-04T17:49:30Z jsnell_: beach: just a suggestion, but if you want people to run a benchmark, bundle up the benchmark in a single .lisp file for them to run
2014-05-04T17:49:42Z beach: jsnell_: Good point.
2014-05-04T17:49:56Z beach: Poenikatu: Can we do this by email?
2014-05-04T17:50:12Z Poenikatu: beach: poenikatu@fastmail.co.uk
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2014-05-04T17:50:39Z beach: OK.  Thanks.  I won't do it today (need to spend time with my family), but in the next few days. OK?
2014-05-04T17:50:51Z Poenikatu: beach: Any time, friend
2014-05-04T17:50:58Z beach: Thank you very much.
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2014-05-04T17:51:15Z beach: I'll work on the benchmark as jsnell_ suggests, and send you the result.
2014-05-04T17:51:25Z Poenikatu: beach: Ok
2014-05-04T17:51:52Z beach goes to spend time with his (admittedly small) family.
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2014-05-04T19:24:45Z drmeister: So I just hit a nasty problem in my quest to implement moving garbage collection for my C++ implementation of Common Lisp.
2014-05-04T19:24:46Z minion: drmeister, memo from pjb: you don't really need backquote for bootstrapping. You can easily use list and append instead ;-)
2014-05-04T19:25:11Z drmeister: Hmmm.
2014-05-04T19:25:37Z drmeister: I use C++ std::vector<X>,  std::map<X,Y> etc as containers.
2014-05-04T19:26:15Z drmeister: For instance ARRAY of objects is implemented using std::vector<smart_ptr>
2014-05-04T19:27:13Z drmeister: The memory pool system requires that smart_ptr's all be within MPS managed memory.  The implementation of std::vector stores them on the heap outside of MPS managed memory.
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2014-05-04T19:28:04Z drmeister: So I need implementations of something like std::vector, std::map, std::set that will work within MPS managed memory and can handle being moved around in memory and be scanned by MPS.   Whew.
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2014-05-04T19:28:38Z jsnell_: can't you just use a custom allocator?
2014-05-04T19:28:59Z drmeister: jsnell_: I thought so but there are a couple of problems.
2014-05-04T19:29:37Z drmeister: The allocated MPS memory needs to have a header that describes what to scan.   A std::vector is two parts, the std::vector and the block of data it points to.
2014-05-04T19:30:14Z drmeister: the block of data will need it's own header and the garbage collector needs to know what is alive within the data to scan or everything within the data has to be valid and scannable.
2014-05-04T19:30:41Z drmeister: Also, if the data block gets moved then the pointers within the std::vector struct need to be updated to point to it.   The pointers in std::vector are implementation dependent.
2014-05-04T19:31:24Z jsnell_: just to be clear, I'm talking of an allocator as in the last template argument for the STL containers
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2014-05-04T19:31:35Z drmeister: Then there are the details of how data is put into the std::vector.     Say vec.push_back(X).     If the size of the vector is incremented first and then X written into it if there is a GC between increment and X being written then if the element contained junk the scanner will fail.
2014-05-04T19:31:46Z drmeister: jsnell_: Yes.
2014-05-04T19:32:38Z drmeister: I've been thinking about this for a couple of hours and chatted with a very helpful fellow at Ravenbrook to suss out the problems.  What I'm describing are the problems we came up with.   I'm fishing for other ideas.
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2014-05-04T19:33:59Z drmeister: What I could use about now is an efficient implementation of a vector that would work like std::vector but be tolerant of being moved around in memory.
2014-05-04T19:34:05Z rpg: Anyone know if there's trouble at cl.net?  Email sent to asdf-devel is bouncing....
2014-05-04T19:34:29Z rpg: s/bouncing/Connection refused/
2014-05-04T19:36:12Z jsnell_: drmeister: for point 2, can't MPS treat a memory region as gc-managed but not movable?
2014-05-04T19:36:28Z H4ns: rpg: let me check
2014-05-04T19:36:51Z rpg: H4ns: If it's just refusing mail from my server, I'd like to know that, too!
2014-05-04T19:37:11Z H4ns: rpg: no, seems the smtp daemon is down for some reason.  checking
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2014-05-04T19:37:38Z H4ns: "disk full".  ein mal mit profis.
2014-05-04T19:37:40Z drmeister: jsnell_: Yes - it can.  There are different kinds of pools.   The AMS pool (Automatic Mark and Sweep) doesn't move memory.   The AMC pool (Automatic Mostly-Copying)
2014-05-04T19:38:15Z drmeister: I can allocate different objects in different pools.  Maybe just to get things working I could allocate VECTOR in the AMS pool (non-moving).
2014-05-04T19:38:31Z drmeister: Hmmm.
2014-05-04T19:39:07Z H4ns: rpg: give me 5-10 minutes to get that fixed.
2014-05-04T19:39:39Z rpg: Thanks, H4ns! Now I'm glad I mentioned it.
2014-05-04T19:39:46Z drmeister: That would be less than ideal.   Resizable VECTORs that move and compact are much more appealing.
2014-05-04T19:39:46Z jsnell_: drmeister: for points 1/3, I don't see what the problem would be with everything within the data being valid and scannable. when the allocator allocates a new chunk of memory for a container, initialize it such that it contains only things that won't be interpreted as invalid pointers. also make the destructor of a smart_ptr leave its backing memory in such a state
2014-05-04T19:40:52Z ogamita: drmeister: you will probably have much fun with C++ iterators…
2014-05-04T19:40:58Z drmeister: jsnell_: I agree.   I would have to implement that myself though.
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2014-05-04T19:42:32Z drmeister: ogamita:  They won't be a problem.   If the iterator is on the stack the MPS library will pin the VECTOR.  I don't put iterators on the heap but if I did my static analyzer would identify it and write code to update it during scanning.
2014-05-04T19:44:32Z drmeister: I implemented a HASH-TABLE that depends on an implementation of VECTOR.    I'll just implement a VECTOR object that can handle being moved around and then use it for everything that currently uses std::vector.   I'll convert uses of std::map and std::set to work with HASH-TABLE.
2014-05-04T19:44:42Z drmeister: It's a bit more work but that should cover everything.
2014-05-04T19:46:17Z H4ns: rpg: i alerted the ops to add more space.  I hope that ehu or easye can get it done quickly.
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2014-05-04T19:47:10Z rpg: H4ns: Thanks.  I appreciate it. We're just about to release ASDF, so by a trivial application of Murphy's law, this is when email fails....
2014-05-04T19:47:21Z H4ns: rpg: :(
2014-05-04T19:47:59Z drmeister: I got my Common Lisp system to run when I allocate everything in the AMS pool (non-moving).  I can load my compiler and run it.  It's very slow because the AMS pool is not meant for production use.  But it works.
2014-05-04T19:48:06Z H4ns: rpg: i can move some stuff around to make some space if it is urgent enough.
2014-05-04T19:48:20Z rpg: H4ns: No, that's fine, thanks.
2014-05-04T19:48:28Z H4ns: rpg: ok, sorry.
2014-05-04T19:48:48Z rpg: H4ns: No apology necessary.  I just feel stupid for not reporting this on Friday...
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2014-05-04T20:08:00Z ehu: gotcha there easye: running long term processes on the lisp.not.org host, heh?
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2014-05-04T20:10:48Z ehu: H4ns: working on it. actually, I was working on it this morning and thought I had resolved the issue. apparently not.
2014-05-04T20:10:59Z ehu: (I did get a warning from my monitoring)
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2014-05-04T20:16:16Z H4ns: ehu: /var is still tight on space.
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2014-05-04T20:27:54Z nialo: so I don't know how much you guys will be able to help, but I appear to be getting incorrect values back from a hash table in CL
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2014-05-04T20:28:29Z H4ns: nialo: you need to show us the source.
2014-05-04T20:28:38Z nialo: as in, I put a bunch of stuff into a table, and then I look up one of the values, and get a completely different one.
2014-05-04T20:28:43Z nialo: figured :(
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2014-05-04T20:29:05Z H4ns: nialo: what kind of keys do you use?  how do you create your hash table?
2014-05-04T20:29:49Z nialo: integer keys, (let ((forward-table (make-hash-table :size (* 32 (expt 16 n))))) where I know that at most (expt 16 n) values will be going into it
2014-05-04T20:31:07Z H4ns: nialo: looks legit.  do you see the problem occur the same way with different cl implementations?
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2014-05-04T20:32:06Z nialo: I've only tried it on CCL, so I don't know either way
2014-05-04T20:33:33Z H4ns: might be worth a try.  other than that, you'll have to "just debug until you find the problem"
2014-05-04T20:33:54Z H4ns: by trying a different implementation, you could rule out the thought that your lisp is at fault.
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2014-05-04T20:40:22Z nialo: on further investigation, it turns out that no matter what key I use I get the same value
2014-05-04T20:41:33Z H4ns: then you write the same value for all keys.
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2014-05-04T20:45:45Z ehu: H4ns: right. I'm adding 50g, but it insists on reorganizing its data.
2014-05-04T20:45:57Z ehu: I'll copy the data over outside of the vm
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2014-05-04T20:46:27Z ehu: and simply replace the volume with the bigger one.
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2014-05-04T20:46:35Z H4ns: ok
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2014-05-04T20:56:52Z |3b|: nialo: a hash table with 32x as many elements as you expect to use sounds a bit big (though should still work correctly)
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2014-05-04T21:06:08Z ehu: H4ns: it's back up. only 3% used now.
2014-05-04T21:06:36Z ehu: and mail seems to be flowing again.
2014-05-04T21:06:40Z ehu: or at least, the logs do.
2014-05-04T21:06:42Z H4ns: ehu: thanks!
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2014-05-04T21:14:08Z ehu: H4ns: added the old /var size to the '/' which was the next-most-crowded.
2014-05-04T21:16:13Z ehu: H4ns: where does mailman store its archives? on /var?
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2014-05-04T21:23:24Z H4ns: let me check
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2014-05-04T21:25:01Z H4ns: ehu: /var/lib/mailman/archives
2014-05-04T21:25:09Z ehu: ok. thanks.
2014-05-04T21:25:27Z ehu: var has been added back to the weekly backups as well as the hourly snapshots.
2014-05-04T21:25:36Z ehu: weekly off-sites, that is.
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2014-05-04T21:25:58Z ehu: the storage was so full of data it wasn't able to reclaim its unused space.
2014-05-04T21:26:26Z ehu: now with the data copied to the bigger store, instead of 2.3G, the data takes only 1.1G
2014-05-04T21:26:36Z ehu: anyway, there's 50G to store it on now.
2014-05-04T21:26:49Z ehu: so that should work for a while.
2014-05-04T21:27:51Z H4ns: i'd suppose so. :)
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2014-05-04T21:35:59Z ehu: with that out of the way, I suppose the next step is to migrate the project and user-home directories
2014-05-04T21:36:29Z ehu: H4ns: ^^ would you agree?
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2014-05-04T21:45:51Z nialo: |3b|:  I started out with 2x, and added more on the off chance that it would help with my getting the wrong answers problem
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2014-05-04T21:50:26Z |3b|: nialo: hash tables resize automatically, and effect of those values is implementation dependent anyway, so not much point in setting them larger than expected
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2014-05-04T21:51:19Z |3b|: (not much point in setting them at all for that matter, unless you are adding a huge number of items at once)
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2014-05-04T22:00:56Z ehu: ok. off to bed. ttyl.
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2014-05-05T00:04:55Z meow271: test
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2014-05-05T00:13:05Z meow271: can someone explain to me why this is illegal? (loop for index from 0 to 10 print index)
2014-05-05T00:13:44Z stassats: do you want an explanation or do you want to get it working ?
2014-05-05T00:13:51Z stassats: (loop for index below 10 do (print index))
2014-05-05T00:14:24Z nyef: Heh. Paren blindness strikes again: I saw the missing DO, but not the missing parens. (-:
2014-05-05T00:14:25Z meow271: stassats: Ah much obliged thanks!
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2014-05-05T00:19:59Z meow271: is there something wrong with this code?: (push (nth index-from-a-loop some-list) some-buffer)
2014-05-05T00:20:18Z stassats: it is slow
2014-05-05T00:20:53Z meow271: because im not inherently using arrays?
2014-05-05T00:21:07Z stassats: no
2014-05-05T00:21:40Z stassats: (loop for some-element in some-list do (push some-element some-buffer))
2014-05-05T00:22:33Z meow271: that would assume I would want to reverse everything in the original list
2014-05-05T00:22:49Z meow271: but i didnt provide enough context
2014-05-05T00:22:54Z stassats: (loop for some-element in some-list do collect some-element)
2014-05-05T00:22:58Z stassats: s/do//
2014-05-05T00:23:40Z White_Flame: (copy-list some-list) :-P
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2014-05-05T00:24:15Z stassats: some-list
2014-05-05T00:24:37Z White_Flame: actually, (setf some-buffer (copy-list some-list))
2014-05-05T00:25:02Z White_Flame: though I suspect the some-buffer is intended to hold more than that :)
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2014-05-05T00:27:56Z meow271: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142396 -- im trying to figure out why this works in my repl but not as a load-in for clisp or ccl
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2014-05-05T00:29:21Z stassats: clearly, because of the dangling parenthesis
2014-05-05T00:29:27Z White_Flame: "not working" is not a description of what's going wrong (ie, compile error?  wrong output?)
2014-05-05T00:29:48Z nyef: minion: advice on working?
2014-05-05T00:29:48Z minion: #11902: You said it didn't work, but you didn't say what it would have done if it *had* worked.
2014-05-05T00:30:17Z stassats: let me guess, the random numbers are always the same?
2014-05-05T00:30:39Z stassats: and there's nothing being returned either
2014-05-05T00:30:41Z meow271: white_flame: compile error
2014-05-05T00:31:06Z stassats: pack your things, it's a compile error!
2014-05-05T00:31:56Z meow271: stassats: but i dont understand what's wrong. the error points to the push, but I dont see what's wrong with it...
2014-05-05T00:32:06Z meow271 is a newbie 
2014-05-05T00:32:20Z stassats: i don't see what's wrong either, maybe it's because i don't see the error you are having from here
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2014-05-05T00:33:52Z meow271: and all of the sudden it starts working..... Man I have made an idiot out of myself
2014-05-05T00:34:02Z nyef: Umm... You know that there's no guarantee that pt2 is after pt1, which is required for that LOOP form, right?
2014-05-05T00:35:02Z stassats: (nreverse (subseq some-list (random (1+ num)) (1+ (random (1+ num)))))
2014-05-05T00:35:13Z meow271: nyef: yeah, i have a line after it (not included) that generates a new rand until the two arent equal
2014-05-05T00:35:32Z nyef: It's not a matter of equal, it's a matter of ordering.
2014-05-05T00:35:52Z meow271: nyef: ah, that's also accounted for with a rotatef
2014-05-05T00:35:56Z stassats: what about (when (> pt1 pt2) (rotatef pt1 pt2))
2014-05-05T00:36:01Z meow271: ^
2014-05-05T00:36:51Z meow271: stassats: wait, i can stick the when in a loop instead of a renegade if statement?
2014-05-05T00:37:25Z stassats: a renegade?
2014-05-05T00:38:19Z meow271: do stuff in for loop, then check after the loop is done with an if
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2014-05-05T02:41:29Z Greyhat: question for the SBCL users/hackers --
2014-05-05T02:43:20Z Greyhat: I want to invoke SAVE-LISP-AND-DIE, but it seems that there are 4 threads
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2014-05-05T02:43:35Z stassats: make it 1 thread
2014-05-05T02:43:37Z nyef: You're doing this from SLIME, aren't you?
2014-05-05T02:43:38Z Greyhat: that I have to stop before being able to do so.
2014-05-05T02:43:40Z Greyhat: yes.
2014-05-05T02:43:53Z Greyhat: I have slime installed, I am just at a loss on how to shut them down
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2014-05-05T02:44:19Z nyef hasn't the foggiest idea about SLIME anymore.
2014-05-05T02:44:26Z stassats: saving a running slime core is not of the greatest ideas
2014-05-05T02:44:59Z nyef: Whenever I've been tempted to produce a slimed core, I typically arrange for slime to start AFTER the core is restarted, not before I save it.
2014-05-05T02:46:04Z Greyhat: ah, so those active threads I see are slime threads?
2014-05-05T02:46:53Z Greyhat: this is what I see:  http://pastebin.com/nRTZusb1
2014-05-05T02:47:11Z Bike: yep, that's slime.
2014-05-05T02:47:19Z nyef: Do an (sb-thread:list-all-threads) or whatever it is, or pull up the thread list in slime however you do that, and see. ISTR that the slime threads are fairly obviously labelled.
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2014-05-05T02:48:53Z Greyhat: OK.  so if you were writing a project, and wanted to dump the image, what would need to be done to be able to use (SAVE-LISP-AND-DIE)
2014-05-05T02:49:07Z Bike: not start the image-to-dump from slime
2014-05-05T02:50:13Z Greyhat: how *would* you dump the image?  Load the code from the command line, then invoke (SAVE-LISP-AND-DIE)?
2014-05-05T02:51:01Z Bike: write a short .lisp file that loads everything and calls save-lisp-and-die, then do 'sbcl --load that-file.lisp' or whatever the syntax is
2014-05-05T02:51:48Z Greyhat: Ah, OK.  I think I get it now.  This is something that cannot be done interactively at the REPL.  Thx.
2014-05-05T02:52:14Z Bike: well, you probably don't want to save your whole development environment anyway
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2014-05-05T02:52:52Z zRecursive: As sbcl image is VERY large :)
2014-05-05T02:53:33Z Greyhat: Suppose you are working on a project.  Do you just save it in source form until it has passed whatever tests it must, then package it as an application?
2014-05-05T02:53:46Z nyef: Yes, absolutely.
2014-05-05T02:53:54Z nyef: For that matter, my test runner is a shell script.
2014-05-05T02:55:24Z Greyhat: Bike:  can you explain what the standard procedure is to create an SBCL application?  From the manuals, I get the idea that the entire heap image
2014-05-05T02:55:26Z Greyhat: is delivered
2014-05-05T02:57:35Z Bike: that's how save-lisp-and-die works, yeah
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2014-05-05T02:57:46Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-05-05T02:57:53Z beach: stassats: You rang?
2014-05-05T02:57:56Z nyef: Hello beach.
2014-05-05T02:57:56Z p_l: beach: bonjour
2014-05-05T02:58:11Z Bike: i think the basic pattern is going to be (load-my-stuff) (save-lisp-and-die :toplevel #'whatever)
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2014-05-05T02:58:30Z zRecursive: Greyhat: If you can deliver source, then you can do "sbcl --eval '(require (quote foo))' --eval '(yourapp:main)'" without a sbcl image ?
2014-05-05T02:59:23Z stassats: beach: i wanted to say something about the generic dispatch paper, but i'll probably do that later
2014-05-05T03:00:09Z beach: stassats: OK, no rush.  I'll be here a for a few more hours.  Then I leave and get to work.  But we can do this some other time.
2014-05-05T03:00:17Z Greyhat: zRecursive:  I'd prefer to just deliver a binary, TBH.
2014-05-05T03:00:32Z Greyhat: Not writing an app for lisp hackers yet...
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2014-05-05T03:08:56Z Greyhat: many thanks for the info -- saved me hours from trying to figure this out on my own.
2014-05-05T03:11:41Z stassats: beach: one thing that i'm worried is that on 32-bit systems, you may run out of stamps
2014-05-05T03:12:14Z stassats: using two words may be a solution
2014-05-05T03:12:39Z beach: stassats: Right.
2014-05-05T03:12:58Z beach: stassats: It is very unlikely that it will happen, but it could.
2014-05-05T03:13:15Z beach: stassats: I should mention it.
2014-05-05T03:13:27Z stassats: somebody bragged about having sbcl for three or four years
2014-05-05T03:13:48Z stassats: at full tilt, sbcl can exhaust the 32-bit number in a couple of weeks
2014-05-05T03:14:07Z beach: But they would have to do a lot of redefining classes to run out of stamps.
2014-05-05T03:15:18Z beach: But, yeah, it can happen, so I should mention it.
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2014-05-05T03:15:58Z stassats: another thing, if you don't store the stamp in a vector, you can save a memory access
2014-05-05T03:16:20Z beach: Where would I store it then?
2014-05-05T03:16:36Z stassats: in another memory word
2014-05-05T03:16:55Z beach: The stamp must be associated with the instance somehow.
2014-05-05T03:17:21Z stassats: that word is inside the instance, presumably
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2014-05-05T03:18:00Z beach: Now, the stamp is stored in the "slot vector" which I call the "rack" because I use it for things other than slots, such as array elements.
2014-05-05T03:18:10Z stassats: on sbcl, it can be even better, all other pointers (i.e. non immediates) have a header, with low 8 bits used for the tag, the rest 56 bits can be used freely
2014-05-05T03:19:23Z beach: Hmm, OK, so where do you store the pointer to the class?
2014-05-05T03:20:04Z stassats: in sbcl, it's [header][class-wrapper][slot-vector][hash-code]
2014-05-05T03:20:24Z beach: Oh, I understand.
2014-05-05T03:20:43Z beach: So what I call a "header" (2 words) is 4 words in SBCL.
2014-05-05T03:20:55Z beach: Yes, then you can put the stamp there.
2014-05-05T03:21:04Z beach: And definitely save a memory access.
2014-05-05T03:21:09Z beach: Nice.
2014-05-05T03:21:34Z stassats: and in sbcl, the space is already there, at least on 64-bit
2014-05-05T03:21:42Z beach: Yes, I see.
2014-05-05T03:21:57Z beach: That would be very fast.
2014-05-05T03:22:22Z stassats: and the 8 bits, instance-widetag, is constant, so it doesn't need to be shifted away
2014-05-05T03:22:38Z beach: OK.
2014-05-05T03:22:41Z stassats: except that it's different for funcallable-instances
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2014-05-05T03:23:01Z beach: Oh, but wait, if you implement my technique, you can remove the class wrapper
2014-05-05T03:23:43Z stassats: that wouldn't do much, allocation is double-word aligned
2014-05-05T03:24:07Z beach: I see.  And the hash code is for things like hash tables?
2014-05-05T03:24:39Z stassats: right
2014-05-05T03:24:52Z beach: Oh, I am stupid.  If you remove the class wrapper, you would have to store the reference to the class instead.
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2014-05-05T03:25:33Z beach: OK, so basically you are saying that by having a 4 word "header" instead my 2 words, you save a memory access.  That is a very valid point.
2014-05-05T03:26:38Z beach: It would be interesting to compare performance of the two different ways.
2014-05-05T03:27:11Z beach: What do you use the tag for?
2014-05-05T03:27:29Z stassats: for tagging!
2014-05-05T03:27:39Z stassats: bignums, arrays, double-floats
2014-05-05T03:27:57Z beach: You could probably remove that then, because the stamp does everything you need.
2014-05-05T03:29:20Z stassats: the 56 bits of the header are used for other things
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2014-05-05T03:29:53Z stassats: bignums are [56-bit length|8-bit bignum-widetag][digits...]
2014-05-05T03:30:05Z beach: Now I am confused.  I thought you said they were available for the stamp.
2014-05-05T03:30:12Z stassats: that's for instances
2014-05-05T03:30:18Z beach: Oh, yes. I see.
2014-05-05T03:30:19Z stassats: bignums aren't instances
2014-05-05T03:30:30Z beach: Yes, yes.  I am stupid.
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2014-05-05T03:30:48Z beach: In SICL, I plan to make bignums general instances.
2014-05-05T03:31:42Z beach: So, in that case, you will have extra work to do when you specialize on integers.
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2014-05-05T03:33:02Z stassats: luckily, they can't be nor redefined, neither subclased
2014-05-05T03:33:05Z beach: And in fact, you would have extra work anyway, because you first have to check whether you have a standard object.
2014-05-05T03:33:20Z beach: Otherwise, you would not allowed to test the stamp.
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2014-05-05T03:34:06Z stassats: then there are fixnums or single-floats, or characters, which are immediate
2014-05-05T03:34:21Z beach: Right.
2014-05-05T03:34:45Z stassats: and the dual symbol-list relationship with NIL
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2014-05-05T03:36:22Z beach: For SICL, I plan to do this: Check whether it is a general instance (i.e., heap allocated object other than CONS).  If so, check the stamp.
2014-05-05T03:36:37Z beach: For SBCL, you would have to do more.
2014-05-05T03:37:04Z stassats: well, it already does more
2014-05-05T03:37:09Z beach: Check whether it is a heap allocated object.  If so, check whether it is a standard object.
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2014-05-05T03:40:24Z beach: I guess that answers my question.  Thanks for your help.
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2014-05-05T03:40:44Z stassats: i think pkhuong had some notes too
2014-05-05T03:40:54Z beach: notes about what?
2014-05-05T03:40:59Z stassats: the paper
2014-05-05T03:41:10Z beach: Oh, he read it?  Great!
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2014-05-05T03:44:23Z beach: Is he planning to send his notes to me?
2014-05-05T03:44:43Z stassats: probably
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2014-05-05T03:45:11Z beach: Excellent!  Thanks for your help, and thanks for telling pkhuong.
2014-05-05T03:45:43Z stassats: i didn't tell him!
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2014-05-05T03:46:31Z beach: Oh, OK.  Not important.
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2014-05-05T04:26:37Z meow271: is there a C-Style return equivalent in common lisp?
2014-05-05T04:29:58Z H4ns: meow271: no.  you can use return-from, but it is ugly.
2014-05-05T04:31:05Z meow271: H4ns, ok thanks
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2014-05-05T04:42:13Z oleo: morning
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2014-05-05T05:34:30Z Guthur: How can i get the following...
2014-05-05T05:34:33Z Guthur: (defun make-method (foo) (defmethod foobar ((bar foo)) ...))
2014-05-05T05:34:40Z Guthur: (make-method 'some-class)
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2014-05-05T05:41:21Z pjb: Guthur: you should write a macro: (defmacro generate-method (class-name) `(defmethod …)) (generate-method some-class)
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2014-05-05T05:42:33Z pjb: Guthur: if the class is not known at compilation time, then you will have to use eval.
2014-05-05T05:42:53Z pjb: (defun make-method (run-time-class-name) (eval `(defmethod foobar ((bar ,run-time-class-name)) ...))
2014-05-05T05:43:16Z Guthur: pjb: yeah, I was just wondering if there was a way to do it without a macro
2014-05-05T05:44:04Z pjb: It might be possible with MOP, but it'll be implementation dependant.  Check if there's something in CLOSER-MOP to create methods.
2014-05-05T05:44:18Z pjb: in CL, there are ADD-METHOD and REMOVE-METHOD, but nothing to create methods.
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2014-05-05T05:44:40Z pjb: apart from defmethod of couse.
2014-05-05T05:44:42Z pjb: r
2014-05-05T05:48:45Z Guthur: ok, cheers
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2014-05-05T05:53:59Z meow271: is there a way without using cond to do the following (if T then do (X Y Z) else do (X Y)))
2014-05-05T05:54:21Z meow271: where X Y Z are functions
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2014-05-05T05:55:34Z splittist: meow271: isn't that X Y (when T Z) ?
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2014-05-05T05:55:53Z splittist: Or are you calling X with Y and Z as arguments?
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2014-05-05T05:56:59Z meow271: splittist: (if T (print 'A) (print 'B)) I want A and B to be printed instead of just A
2014-05-05T05:57:40Z splittist: meow271: T is a really bad example name. How many branches does your conditional have?
2014-05-05T05:58:57Z meow271: splittist: for the purposes of what im hoping to have, yes it is: I want to be able to do multiple functions as if it was one function call (without writing a defun and all)
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2014-05-05T06:00:02Z zRecursive: meow271: (progn (fun1 ...) (fun2 ...))
2014-05-05T06:00:49Z splittist: meow271: I don't understand. There are one-branch conditionals - WHEN and UNLESS - that have an implicit PROGN. COND does, too. But IF doesn't. If that bothers you, you can always defmacro THEN and ELSE to mean PROGN and write (IF A (THEN (X Y)) (ELSE (Z1 Z2 Z3)) (:
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2014-05-05T06:04:24Z meow271: zRecursive: i was looking for that thanks, splittist: thanks for the heads up =^.^=
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2014-05-05T06:20:44Z H4ns: meow271: cond is more idiomatic than using if+progn
2014-05-05T06:21:16Z meow271: H4ns: I get lost in the parenthesis
2014-05-05T06:21:31Z H4ns: meow271: you'll get used to it.
2014-05-05T06:21:36Z DataLinkDroid: meow271: which one?
2014-05-05T06:21:51Z meow271: DataLinkDroid: the ones involved with cond
2014-05-05T06:22:06Z DataLinkDroid: ah :)
2014-05-05T06:22:06Z phadthai: cond was tricky for me at first too
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2014-05-05T06:22:47Z DataLinkDroid: you have to think carefully about what the parentheses are for
2014-05-05T06:22:50Z H4ns: (defmacro then ..) is the equivalent of #define BEGIN {
2014-05-05T06:22:54Z DataLinkDroid: then you will stop getting confused
2014-05-05T06:23:07Z H4ns: i.e. no self-respecting c programmer would ever use such a thing
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2014-05-05T06:32:15Z H4ns: unless they're john foderaro, of course
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2014-05-05T06:37:28Z H4ns: meow271: never mind.
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2014-05-05T06:37:31Z meow271: oh http://franz.com/about/bios/jkf.lhtml
2014-05-05T06:38:04Z H4ns: meow271: right.  he's the author of franz inc's lisp "style" guide, which basically says everyone should use the if* macro that jkf wrote.
2014-05-05T06:38:31Z H4ns: meow271: luckily, that "style" guide has a very very small following beyond franz inc's customers.
2014-05-05T06:39:33Z H4ns: meow271: my point is:  the parentheses, the structure of if vs cond and all that are unfamiliar to you, but it is worth learning how to use them rather than trying to make lisp behave as it was another language.
2014-05-05T06:40:18Z H4ns: meow271: otoh, writing a "while" or "better defclass" macro is part of the learning experience.
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2014-05-05T07:15:33Z ck_: .. fail again. fail better. ;)
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2014-05-05T07:16:50Z ck_ has some time on his hands after the allegro updater didn't fail better at all
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2014-05-05T10:25:08Z loke: C++, the language where even clever and smart solutions are terrible: http://blog.sduto.it/2014/05/a-c-error-handling-style-that-plays.html
2014-05-05T10:25:28Z loke: I kept thinking about how many hoops they just through to do something that is trvial in Lisp
2014-05-05T10:25:44Z p_l: loke: remember, to debug you have to be a magnitude more clever than the code you wrote. Don't write clever code.
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2014-05-05T10:27:00Z loke: p_l: I find it remarkable how much effort C++ programmers spend creating hacks to make things "seem" normal. "ohh, look! I can call my function and there will be an exception if there is an error (by doing stuff like creationg transient wrapper objects that check error state in the destructor...)"
2014-05-05T10:27:33Z loke: If they had just gone with a fully-fledged macro system like Lisp they'd be done already
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2014-05-05T10:48:13Z phadthai: loke: not lisp related, but I find it similar for C vs C++ for kernel code (the amount of work needed for C++ in that scenario)
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2014-05-05T12:38:59Z aerique: Anyone up for a CL optimization challenge? http://paste.lisp.org/display/142399
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2014-05-05T13:03:09Z JuanDaugherty hopes not challenges suck
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2014-05-05T13:10:08Z |3b|: JuanDaugherty: better than doing a crossword puzzle or sudoku something :)
2014-05-05T13:12:29Z JuanDaugherty: under rubrics like 'problem', 'puzzle', yeah, maybe depending
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2014-05-05T13:24:19Z samebchase: aerique: are you planning to submit your implementation to the repo?
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2014-05-05T13:29:01Z aerique: samebchase: My current one, I don't know.  It looks like the guy (although I have had no contact with him besides a directed tweet) has already defined a set of languages he will choose from.  I'm also not going to spend more time on optimizing it, it was fun while it lasted but I've got work to do :-)  Perhaps if someone manages to improve it a lot and still keep it somewhat readable (s)he or I might bring it to the guys attention. I just thought some people m
2014-05-05T13:30:32Z |3b| didn't see any obvious simple stuff, but doesn't have time to look more at the moment... would probably try to reduce allocation of temporaries or something next
2014-05-05T13:30:37Z aerique: The C and Julia code look pretty convoluted so perhaps more performing CL version can be more liberal with readability as well.
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2014-05-05T13:31:45Z aerique: |3b|: M* takes up a lot of time and the C and Julia versions handle that better.
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2014-05-05T13:33:48Z aerique: |3b|: eh, so what I tried to say is: you're correct
2014-05-05T13:34:29Z |3b|: using blas from CL would probably help too
2014-05-05T13:39:33Z Xach: dim: I can't build pgloader today because of how it's using git to get version info.
2014-05-05T13:39:42Z Xach: dim: should i use a branch or some released tarball instead?
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2014-05-05T13:45:39Z samebchase: aerique: okay. how close is it to the fastest solution?
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2014-05-05T14:09:15Z aerique: samebchase: mine isn't close at all, it's close to the Python 2 + Numpy solution.  It's actually a pretty literal translation of the Python code with declarations added to the function that took up most of the time.  So there's quite so gains to be had.
2014-05-05T14:09:55Z Fare: hello, live from ELS2014
2014-05-05T14:10:19Z theos: hi
2014-05-05T14:11:20Z loke_: Fare: I'm jealous
2014-05-05T14:11:26Z loke_: I actually intended to go
2014-05-05T14:12:10Z Xach: loke_: ILC instead?
2014-05-05T14:12:10Z loke_: But I need to go to Paris next month anyway, so there was little point in me spending 12 hours on a flight twice in a few weeks :-)
2014-05-05T14:12:17Z loke_: Xach: where is that?
2014-05-05T14:12:22Z Xach: canada
2014-05-05T14:12:26Z ogamita: currently at ELS: OMAS Multi Agent System demo ;-)
2014-05-05T14:12:27Z loke_: Too far away
2014-05-05T14:12:32Z Xach: bah
2014-05-05T14:12:45Z loke_: What city is it in?
2014-05-05T14:12:46Z Xach: I'm going, and canada is like a five hour drive
2014-05-05T14:12:49Z Xach: loke_: montreal
2014-05-05T14:12:57Z loke_: let's see how long the flight is...
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2014-05-05T14:13:17Z Xach: drewc is sailing there, maybe you can get a ride
2014-05-05T14:14:15Z loke_: The shortest flight for me is... Hmm... British Airways. Only 29 hours and 25 minutes!
2014-05-05T14:15:10Z Krystof: what misbegotten part of the world ar you in?
2014-05-05T14:15:17Z ogamita: loke_: Just bore a hole in the Earth, empty it from any gas, and shot down it, you'll get there in one hour!
2014-05-05T14:15:30Z loke_: 32:48 hours with air canada
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2014-05-05T14:15:47Z loke_: So no... As much as I would love to go, not going to happen :-(
2014-05-05T14:16:00Z Krystof: go team #els2014
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2014-05-05T14:16:19Z Fare: ogamita, it's not the gas, it's the liquid iron core that kills.
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2014-05-05T14:17:39Z loke_: Will you guys please stop rubbing it in? :-(  I was looking forward to meeting you guys
2014-05-05T14:17:55Z loke_: You should have had the event in this part of the world
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2014-05-05T14:18:06Z ogamita: Fare: yes, but I didn't say to dig vertically: in a vacuum, you can just satelize yourself under the earth level, so you still get there in the same time! The only difference is that now you have to accelerate and decelerate to orbital velocity. :-)
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2014-05-05T14:18:40Z ogamita: If an ELS were organized in Quebec, I'd come over.
2014-05-05T14:18:56Z loke_: SLS
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2014-05-05T14:20:16Z Krystof: loke_: just follow the tweets; it's almost like being here
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2014-05-05T14:22:25Z Fare: NALS
2014-05-05T14:22:39Z Fare: or, if in Quebec, SLAN
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2014-05-05T14:23:53Z Fare: loke: which part of the world are you in?
2014-05-05T14:27:07Z Xach: Industrial Lispers of the World
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2014-05-05T14:27:41Z JuanDaugherty: Xach, was cl-mpi ever in ql?
2014-05-05T14:27:56Z JuanDaugherty: (or anything like that)
2014-05-05T14:28:01Z Xach: JuanDaugherty: I don't think so. If I remember correctly, it requires per-site customization to build.
2014-05-05T14:28:08Z JuanDaugherty: ah
2014-05-05T14:28:36Z Xach: There isn't a good way to integrate that need with Quicklisp yet. I'd love to see some standard config system that people use to do pre-build or pre-load configuration.
2014-05-05T14:28:46Z Xach wonders if Shinmera has a candidate for that
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2014-05-05T14:46:41Z Shinmera: Hmm, I'm not sure if the thing I built is a good candidate for that.
2014-05-05T14:47:51Z Shinmera: Since the configuration files it loads or writes can look rather ugly depending on the format's capabilities.
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2014-05-05T14:48:34Z Xach: OK.
2014-05-05T14:48:47Z Xach has been pondering making something very simple for the purpose
2014-05-05T14:49:20Z Shinmera: Though I suppose you could always just declare that a specific configuration format that's optimised to look alright is required.
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2014-05-05T14:51:37Z Shinmera: I would have to know more about what exactly you need to be able to tell you if I can help you out.
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2014-05-05T14:54:04Z Xach: One example: i have a program that emails me when a certian process is done, but I don't want to bake the email into the application. I'd like to load some persistent configuration that has the desired email address in it. Trivial to do one-off code for it, but I'd rather not roll the same thing over and over again.
2014-05-05T14:54:35Z Xach: Similar case for storing api keys, database hostnames, etc, for other programs.
2014-05-05T14:54:41Z Shinmera: Right.
2014-05-05T14:54:42Z dim: hi from the ELS 2014 ;-)
2014-05-05T14:54:57Z Xach: Something that doesn't require the library in question to be loaded to save the info.
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2014-05-05T14:55:20Z Xach: dim: hi! pgloader's use of spawning git is causing me Problems!
2014-05-05T14:55:48Z dim: is there a portable-enough way to "setenv" from SBCL/CCL (for now that will do) without requiring C-based stuff? (iolib and osicat are out, didn't see how to do that in uiop)
2014-05-05T14:55:52Z dim: dim: tell me about it?
2014-05-05T14:56:09Z Shinmera: Universal-Config could certainly take on the task of loading/writing configuration, though I'm not sure if I want to advocate its use just yet, as there's a few unniceties in the way it stores things that I want to rethink first.
2014-05-05T14:56:24Z dim: I just had a great personnal hi with --self-upgrade in pgloader, it's fair to have bugs to fix now ;-)
2014-05-05T14:57:10Z Xach: dim: When I test building pgloader (or anything else), I update a vcs checkout, then use that to make a snapshot tarball from which to build. It looks like pgloader is trying to run git commands even when the sources are not in a git repo.
2014-05-05T14:57:30Z Xach: Should I use a branch or release or something that doesn't use git to get version info?
2014-05-05T14:57:47Z dim: ooooh, that's very recent, I didn't think about that
2014-05-05T14:57:58Z Xach: Every day I'm building.
2014-05-05T14:58:11Z dim: (defparameter *realease* nil) --> t in params.lisp
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2014-05-05T14:58:19Z dim: do you have a way to hack that in your build process?
2014-05-05T14:58:26Z Xach: dim: No.
2014-05-05T14:58:32Z dim: we could find another way to do it for sure
2014-05-05T14:58:38Z Xach: Ok!
2014-05-05T14:59:52Z Shinmera: Xach: By the way, have you gotten to setting up your twitter bot yet and if so, do you have any feedback (at all) on Chirp?
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2014-05-05T15:00:24Z Xach: Shinmera: no :(
2014-05-05T15:00:38Z Xach: Chirp is better than the alternatives already, though, so that's good.
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2014-05-05T15:00:49Z Shinmera: Ah, do let me know if anything crosses your mind though.
2014-05-05T15:01:28Z dim: Xach: which command do you use to get the sources from the repo with the .git? and also, how do I make it so that QL pgloader version number is not the data but my version number?
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2014-05-05T15:02:05Z dim: or maybe use a tag actually, currently v3.0.99
2014-05-05T15:02:08Z Xach: dim: if you make a release tarball that unpacks into pgloader-1.2.3 or whatever, the QL file will reflect that structure.
2014-05-05T15:02:16Z Xach: Or I can use a tag, and that will show up too.
2014-05-05T15:02:29Z Xach: Tags are currently a bit of a pain and require some manual updating.
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2014-05-05T15:02:46Z Xach: Their stability is both good and bad.
2014-05-05T15:02:56Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/releases
2014-05-05T15:03:26Z Xach: dim: I use "git archive --format=tar ..." to save a tgz file and then unpack it elsewhere to test building it.
2014-05-05T15:03:29Z dim: yeah I understand, but can I make it so that you don't run git *and* have a proper release version string?
2014-05-05T15:04:00Z dim: I mean if you checkout the main branch then *release* is nil
2014-05-05T15:04:16Z Xach: dim: the easiest way on my end is if you make a release tarball and put it somewhere with a stable URL, e.g. http://dimitri.com/pgloader-latest.tgz
2014-05-05T15:04:26Z Xach: and have that unpack into pgloader-3.0.99/
2014-05-05T15:04:36Z dim: I'll do that starting at the next release then
2014-05-05T15:04:48Z Xach: Cool! Let me know what the URL is when it happens.
2014-05-05T15:04:50Z dim: http://pgloader.io/download.html --- no tarball yet
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2014-05-05T15:05:18Z dim: you will have pgloader.io/pgloader-latest.tar.gz then
2014-05-05T15:05:27Z Xach: That is very nice, thanks.
2014-05-05T15:05:30Z dim: my hope is that this next one is actually 3.1.0 ;-)
2014-05-05T15:05:44Z dim: that depends on the progress of the debian packaging mainly now
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2014-05-05T15:08:17Z dim: actually wait, I have a tag.
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2014-05-05T15:12:43Z dim: Xach: can you give me the whole command, I have trouble reproducing it here
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2014-05-05T15:16:14Z dim: ok git archive --format=tar --prefix=pgloader-3.0.99/ --output=build/pgloader-latest.tar  v3.0.99
2014-05-05T15:16:21Z dim: tried to do using --remote
2014-05-05T15:16:24Z dim: that didn't work
2014-05-05T15:17:27Z Xach: dim: I can't easily give you the exact command, but it's along the lines of "git archive --format=tar --prefix=pgloader-snap/ > pgloader.tar", and then unpacking pgloader.tar somewhere known to the asdf configuration, and loading from that.
2014-05-05T15:17:41Z dim: yeah I think I'm all set now
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2014-05-05T15:19:34Z meow271: suppose in doing a (loop for i in '(A B C D) do print i)) , is there a way to prevent nil from being printed?
2014-05-05T15:19:56Z meow271: (aside from checking for it at everytime)
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2014-05-05T15:21:00Z Xach: meow271: that is a confusing example. do you have something more realistic?
2014-05-05T15:21:32Z Xach: Depending on what you mean, one option is (loop for i in (remove nil list) ...)
2014-05-05T15:22:45Z dim: Xach: http://pgloader.io/pgloader-latest.tgz should work now
2014-05-05T15:22:52Z Xach: dim: sweet, thanks.
2014-05-05T15:23:04Z Xach gives it a whirl
2014-05-05T15:23:05Z dim: well, thank you ;-)
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2014-05-05T15:25:16Z meow271: Xach: i think your solution doesnt change anything. the problem is that the for loop looks at the end of the list
2014-05-05T15:25:52Z Xach: meow271: No, it doesn't.
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2014-05-05T15:26:14Z Xach: meow271: If you see NIL, perhaps it is the P in REPL showing you the returned value of the loop form.
2014-05-05T15:26:35Z Xach: (progn (loop for i in '(a b c) do (print i)) 42)
2014-05-05T15:26:45Z ogamita: meow271: (loop for i in '(A B C D) do (print i) finally (return (values))
2014-05-05T15:27:48Z ogamita: meow271: Xach's comment means that you should ignore it.
2014-05-05T15:28:14Z Xach: Understanding it is a good first step.
2014-05-05T15:28:15Z ogamita: In a program, where you would have other expressions following the loop, the loop result wouldn't get printed.
2014-05-05T15:28:24Z meow271: ogamita: ogamita: meaning that this is behavior that only exists when looping with print?
2014-05-05T15:28:29Z ogamita: I mean, ignore the NIL being printed :-)
2014-05-05T15:28:35Z meow271: oh ok
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2014-05-05T15:28:41Z ogamita: meow271: no, only when you use the REPL.
2014-05-05T15:29:14Z ogamita: That is, unless you are programming a REPL _command_, a function specifically designed to produce a nice output in the REPL.
2014-05-05T15:29:48Z ogamita: But notice that some implementations are quite verbose when no result is returned with (values): they print ";; no value" instead of merely NIL! :-)
2014-05-05T15:30:48Z ogamita: You may also use finally (terpri) instead, so that a newline is added at the end, so anything printed after is on another line.
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2014-05-05T15:48:57Z dim: Xach: I guess it's ok, I'm closing the lid now, let me know later if any problem
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2014-05-05T15:52:01Z Xach: dim: looks good!
2014-05-05T15:52:06Z Xach: don't close the lid! it's dark in here!
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2014-05-05T16:03:52Z hitecnologys: How does one get version of specific ASDF system?
2014-05-05T16:04:46Z Xach: hitecnologys: it's possible that the version slot in the system object is populated.
2014-05-05T16:04:53Z Xach: hitecnologys: that practice is not universal, though.
2014-05-05T16:05:24Z eudoxia: i think :depends-on (:dep1 :dep2 (:dep3 :version "3.3"))
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2014-05-05T16:06:54Z hitecnologys: Xach: I see. I was just wondering if it's possible to insert some info about which versions of various libraries my program is running on into it's output.
2014-05-05T16:07:02Z eudoxia: example usage: http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=projects/qitab/inferior-shell.git;a=blob_plain;f=inferior-shell.asd;hb=HEAD;js=1
2014-05-05T16:07:24Z hitecnologys: eudoxia: I don't need version check, I need to get the version string after system was loaded.
2014-05-05T16:07:48Z hitecnologys: s/it's/its/
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2014-05-05T16:09:58Z eudoxia: oh, my mistake
2014-05-05T16:09:59Z samebchase: dim: Just read pgloader.io Good job! :-)
2014-05-05T16:11:39Z Shinmera: dim: Not sure if you're aware, but there's a typo on pgloader.io frontpage, last section: "couple fo floats into"
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2014-05-05T16:19:18Z Xach: Shinmera: he can't hear you in here
2014-05-05T16:20:00Z Xach: hitecnologys: It is possible
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2014-05-05T16:30:40Z jasom wishes it were possible to submit bugs by e-mail, rather than having to sign up for yet another bugtracker account
2014-05-05T16:31:07Z hitecnologys: Xach: possible, but not very popular?
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2014-05-05T16:33:25Z Xach: hitecnologys: I don't know. Versions don't seem to be used a lot in meaningful ways in CL libraries (yet?)
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2014-05-05T16:33:47Z jasom: dim: what library are you using for async io?
2014-05-05T16:34:10Z hitecnologys: Xach: I see. Thanks for help.
2014-05-05T16:34:37Z Xach: hitecnologys: it could be that if one person starts using it then it will get into good shape
2014-05-05T16:35:10Z Xach: or maybe it's already in good shape and i just haven't paid attention.
2014-05-05T16:35:16Z Xach: please investigate and report back!!
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2014-05-05T16:35:37Z hitecnologys: Roger.
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2014-05-05T16:39:22Z jasom: dim: someone pointed me at this a few weeks ago, and it's impressive: https://github.com/markcox80/basic-binary-ipc  who needs C, when CFFI can directly make syscalls?
2014-05-05T16:40:09Z oGMo: presumably the people who wrote the syscalls
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2014-05-05T16:40:39Z jasom: oGMo: hmm, I would guess that overlapped-io is written in C++, but I could be wrong.
2014-05-05T16:41:22Z oGMo: jasom: perhaps, but i'm not sure that's going in the right direction ;)
2014-05-05T16:41:32Z jasom: and looking closer, it does grovel the header-files, so some C is involved.  It's still an impressive amount of work to wrap kqueue, epoll nad overlapped IO with just CFFI.
2014-05-05T16:41:47Z Viaken: jasom: Re: Submitting bugs by email. "We keep getting requests to enlarge our software!"
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2014-05-05T18:39:56Z daGrevis_: hey! i'm writing lisp parser for fun. does it make sense to quote integer?
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2014-05-05T18:41:00Z dlowe: daGrevis_: no, but there's no sense in disallowing it, either
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2014-05-05T18:41:25Z daGrevis_: dlowe, thanks
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2014-05-05T19:51:44Z PuercoPop: oi, how do I upgrade asdf? I need 3.0.3 for inferior-shell.
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2014-05-05T20:01:53Z ehu: H4ns: quick question regarding lisp.not.org: I'm seeing lots of errors regarding spamd not being able to create certain files
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2014-05-05T20:01:57Z ehu: is that normal?
2014-05-05T20:02:15Z H4ns: i would not suppose so, where do you see these errors?
2014-05-05T20:02:24Z ehu: in mail.log
2014-05-05T20:02:27Z ehu: this is one:
2014-05-05T20:02:28Z ehu: plugin: eval failed: bayes: (in learn) locker: safe_lock: cannot create tmp lockfile /nonexistent/.spamassassin/bayes.lock.lisp.not.org.26580 for /nonexistent/.spamassassin/bayes.lock: No such file or directory
2014-05-05T20:02:39Z Xach: PuercoPop: You could download asdf.lisp and load it via your init file, I think.
2014-05-05T20:03:33Z H4ns: ehu: ah, this is kind of normal if sa runs under an account with no home directory, but it would probably make sense to find out how to change the configuration to avoid the error or create a home directory.  i can't do that right now, though.
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2014-05-05T20:04:40Z ehu: H4ns: ok. I can look at creating a version of nobody *with* a home directory.
2014-05-05T20:05:22Z H4ns: ehu: please do some light research to determine whether that is TRT
2014-05-05T20:06:17Z ehu: right. doing so now.
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2014-05-05T20:15:48Z ehu: H4ns: there's a better solution: run it as the 'debian-spamd' user, I guess.
2014-05-05T20:15:53Z ehu: which does have a home directory.
2014-05-05T20:16:01Z H4ns: ehu: yeah, sounds legit
2014-05-05T20:16:17Z ehu: 1 extra option in /etc/default/spamassassin.
2014-05-05T20:16:36Z ehu: monitoring the mail log for a while to see if new errors pop up.
2014-05-05T20:17:13Z H4ns: ehu: thanks much!
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2014-05-05T20:19:10Z PuercoPop: Xach: thanks, idk why I had the mistaken idea that asdf would fetch itself when that is what quicklisp does.
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2014-05-05T20:20:52Z Xach: PuercoPop: perhaps 3.2 will have code for an HTTP client (and server, possibly with a webdav module)
2014-05-05T20:21:10Z Xach: not really
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2014-05-05T20:33:32Z rpg: PuercoPop: ASDF will fetch itself when make does! ;-)
2014-05-05T20:35:50Z wbooze: morning
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2014-05-05T20:47:35Z ehu: H4ns: more config was required, but the errors have been eliminated now.
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2014-05-05T21:22:36Z daGrevis_: whats the common name for things that macros accept? blocks?
2014-05-05T21:23:30Z Krystof: "forms"?
2014-05-05T21:23:57Z daGrevis_: maybe, idk. that's why im asking
2014-05-05T21:24:07Z H4ns: daGrevis_: "forms"
2014-05-05T21:24:28Z daGrevis_: so i was writing parser for lisp and theres this parse method. it can handle ints, booleans, string etc. but then there are lists
2014-05-05T21:24:35Z daGrevis_: oh wait maybe forms are lists
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2014-05-05T21:32:38Z pjb: daGrevis_: really, macros may accept any kind of data.
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2014-05-05T21:32:52Z pjb: daGrevis_: you could have a macro that would take a form, but it's not necessary.
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2014-05-05T21:33:38Z pjb: For example, a macro could just take a symbol, to name something.  Ok, a mere symbol is a form, when it's a variable, but perhaps not this symbol.
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2014-05-05T21:38:44Z |3b|: glossary entry for 'form' in clhs doesn't seem to describe the things passed to macros very well, though defmacro page specifies that the argument is a 'form'
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2014-05-05T21:39:39Z pjb: For example, a dotted list is not a form.  (macroexpand-1 '(m (sin . 42))) --> (sin 42) is a possible macro, that doesn't take a form, but still returns a form.
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2014-05-05T21:41:16Z puchacz: hi, parenscript question please. I have: (ps:ps (ps:getprop obj foo)) ---> obj[foo];
2014-05-05T21:41:23Z puchacz: fine, this is what I want. then
2014-05-05T21:41:38Z puchacz: (ps:ps (ps:chain x (ps:getprop obj foo))) ----> x.getprop(obj, foo);
2014-05-05T21:41:46Z puchacz: and I wanted x.obj[foo]
2014-05-05T21:41:51Z |3b|: s/chain/@/ ?
2014-05-05T21:42:07Z |3b| doesn't remember which is which
2014-05-05T21:42:44Z puchacz: |3b|, that's the one. thanks
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2014-05-05T21:46:12Z nightshade427_: What is a good portable library for shelling out to OS?
2014-05-05T21:46:23Z nightshade427_: For commands and such
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2014-05-05T21:48:44Z nightshade427_: Should I just use asdf run-shell-command?
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2014-05-05T21:49:22Z nightshade427_: Sounds like it may be deprecated?
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2014-05-05T21:50:40Z Xach: nightshade427_: What kind of features do you need?
2014-05-05T21:51:22Z nightshade427_: Basic call an external binary, it does some work, I grab output from stdout of the command
2014-05-05T21:51:42Z nightshade427_: Async would be nice too :)
2014-05-05T21:51:56Z nightshade427_: (Non blocking)
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2014-05-05T21:57:03Z nightshade427_: The non blocking as important :)
2014-05-05T21:57:18Z nightshade427_: The non blocking isn't as important
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2014-05-05T21:57:43Z Xach: When I want to do something like that,  I ususually use sb-ext:run-program. I don't know what might do all that in a portable way, sorry.
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2014-05-05T22:05:40Z nightshade427_: Okay, thanks :) any recommended generic one? Trivial-shell? Something like that?
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2014-05-05T22:08:53Z rpg: nightshade427_: You should probably use Fare's UIOP:RUN-PROGRAM. Only Fare knows how to run programs everywhere; it's a deep black art.
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2014-05-05T22:09:24Z nightshade427_: Great, thanks for the recommendation ;)
2014-05-05T22:09:54Z rpg: Probably best to grab from bleeding edge ASDF for now. Will be releasing, but not till tomorrow (VNC is being Bad To Me).
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2014-05-05T22:10:54Z rpg: nightshade427_: UIOP RUN-PROGRAM runs a program, not necessarily through a shell (this makes sense because Windows doesn't really have a shell).
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2014-05-05T22:11:15Z rpg: RUN-SHELL-COMMAND is less portable than RUN-PROGRAM, unless you promise never to use Windows ;-)
2014-05-05T22:11:29Z foom: windows has so many shells!
2014-05-05T22:12:09Z nightshade427_: No windows here all Linux
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2014-05-05T22:13:15Z foom: There's cmd.exe, command.com, powershell, and sometimes even bash!
2014-05-05T22:13:18Z nightshade427_: Thanks Xach and rpg
2014-05-05T22:13:25Z nightshade427_: Just what I needed
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2014-05-05T22:13:46Z rpg: nightshade427_: then you can relatively portably use a shell.  But there are still some dragons there: look into RUN-PROGRAM and despair.  I know I did....
2014-05-05T22:14:15Z rpg: nightshade427_: If you have any trouble, LMK: I'd like to make sure that the UIOP docs are as good as possible.
2014-05-05T22:14:21Z rpg: (off for now, though)
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2014-05-05T22:14:51Z nightshade427_: Will do, thanks again :)
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2014-05-05T23:25:09Z pillton: jasom: No C++ is involved in BASIC-BINARY-IPC. It is all done via CFFI.
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2014-05-05T23:27:15Z pillton: jasom: The only issue I had with the CFFI groveller is that I couldn't grovel WSAIDs on Windows.
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2014-05-05T23:34:23Z pillton: How is the conference going?
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2014-05-05T23:50:02Z Xach: Pretty great it seems
2014-05-05T23:52:05Z pillton: Does Jan Moringen visit #lisp?
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2014-05-05T23:54:25Z Xach: I don't think so, but perhaps I just don't know his nick
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2014-05-06T05:27:57Z dmiles_afk: does anyone knwo the price range of ACL9.0 for a hobbiest that wants to use lasrge memory models?
2014-05-06T05:28:59Z dmiles_afk: arround 20gb heap the last time i ran the thing i like to run
2014-05-06T05:29:04Z Bike: well, looks like they have a $100 student edition
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2014-05-06T05:29:41Z dmiles_afk: i am confusd that is says "has a few more limitations than the other version"
2014-05-06T05:29:57Z dmiles_afk: (the student edition)
2014-05-06T05:30:21Z Bike: it also says to email them for more information, perhaps you should do so
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2014-05-06T05:30:50Z dmiles_afk: i guess i am wondering if a really good copy is under 500$ vs $5000 (asking so i wont be suprised when they tell me)
2014-05-06T05:31:43Z dmiles_afk: 500$ might be worth it .. but $5000 might be over the top :)
2014-05-06T05:32:27Z Bike: not many people in this channel use the commercial lisps, you should just ask t heir sales reps
2014-05-06T05:32:44Z dmiles_afk: (if i have to ask them how much it is.. i might not be able to afford it_
2014-05-06T05:33:06Z dmiles_afk: right on.. will do
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2014-05-06T05:34:53Z dmiles_afk: "The standard commercial product is about eight thousand dollars, plus a runtime licensing fee. There are cheaper options if you don't want to compile standalone executeables, but you really have to dig at Allegro's sales staff or you'll never hear about them. If you do push and you don't need to distribute exes, you save about six thousand dollars a seat."
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2014-05-06T05:36:50Z zRecursive: What are the differences between SBCL and ACL ?
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2014-05-06T05:39:59Z Bike: ACL is definitely priced with organizations in mind, dmiles
2014-05-06T05:40:21Z Bike: zRecursive: that's a pretty broad question. they're totally different implementatinos.
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2014-05-06T05:42:38Z zRecursive: Bike: If we want to use CL to implement a project, is it worthy using a commercial one instead of open-source one ?
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2014-05-06T05:43:03Z Bike: depends on the project, obviously
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2014-05-06T05:43:18Z Bike: allegro has a big manual for their implementation up for free browsing, you can see what features they offer
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2014-05-06T05:43:33Z Bike: and, again, email their reps for more detailed information, if you need it. i'm sure they'll be happy to sell you things.
2014-05-06T05:43:50Z zRecursive: sure
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2014-05-06T05:47:57Z zRecursive: I am curious what CL impl. does "Gensym G2(http://www.gensym.com/)" use ?
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2014-05-06T06:05:59Z jusss: （values 'a 'b 'c)  "compiled closure" ???
2014-05-06T06:06:06Z jusss: why not a b c
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2014-05-06T06:07:04Z sellout: jusss: What is your question?
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2014-05-06T06:07:52Z jusss: sellout: (values 'a 'b 'c) shouldn't echo a b c?
2014-05-06T06:09:04Z sellout: jusss: It should.
2014-05-06T06:09:33Z jusss: sellout: but it doesn't
2014-05-06T06:09:53Z jusss: sellout: mit/gun schem and gnu common lisp
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2014-05-06T06:09:55Z Bike: as much as we love the guessing game, perhaps you could provide more information.
2014-05-06T06:10:08Z Bike: GNU common lisp as in gcl? it's trash, use something else
2014-05-06T06:10:18Z H4ns: jusss: scheme is not discussed in this channel, gcl is obsolete and unmaintained.
2014-05-06T06:10:26Z sellout: jusss: What Bike said, and scheme is not CL.
2014-05-06T06:10:27Z H4ns: jusss: try sbcl, clozure cl or even clisp
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2014-05-06T06:11:49Z jusss: compliled-closure 11 ("global" #x3b) #x5e #x2766182 #x340f934
2014-05-06T06:12:53Z mal_: and, if you pardon the small parenthesis about scheme, it doesn't have support multiple values
2014-05-06T06:13:00Z mal_: *support for
2014-05-06T06:13:31Z sellout: jusss: That’s what GCL gives you when you type `(values 'a 'b 'c)` at the REPL?
2014-05-06T06:13:46Z jusss: sellout: yes
2014-05-06T06:13:58Z sellout: jusss: Get rid of GCL.
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2014-05-06T06:13:58Z Bike: seriously, don't use gcl.
2014-05-06T06:14:18Z sellout: I have 9 CL implementations on my machine – GCL isn’t one of them.
2014-05-06T06:14:30Z jusss: Bike: which is better for win?
2014-05-06T06:14:45Z Bike: ccl's pretty good on windows, i hear
2014-05-06T06:14:51Z Bike: or clisp, i guess
2014-05-06T06:14:58Z sellout: I sympathize, though – people look for a GNU implementation, and that’s what seems reasonable. GCL was what I tried at first, too.
2014-05-06T06:15:47Z zRecursive: GNU has CLISP now
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2014-05-06T06:16:24Z jusss: how to make a function return a list? for example , return a list of fibonacci sequence
2014-05-06T06:16:32Z sellout: zRecursive: Yeah, but it’s not called GNU Common Lisp.
2014-05-06T06:16:39Z H4ns: jusss: return a list
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2014-05-06T06:16:51Z H4ns: jusss: (defun foo () (list 1 2 3))
2014-05-06T06:16:52Z sellout: jusss: You don’t have to explicitly return.
2014-05-06T06:17:08Z sellout: CL returns the value of the last form
2014-05-06T06:18:14Z zRecursive: (princ (values 'a 'b 'c)) => A
2014-05-06T06:19:19Z splittist heads to the mystery presentation at els2014
2014-05-06T06:19:35Z splittist: according to mega it's a mystery to him what he'll be saying...
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2014-05-06T06:21:40Z Bike: a double blind presentation? innovative
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2014-05-06T06:23:48Z jusss: is there a list variable? give a list a name, even though the list changed, it can be called by name?
2014-05-06T06:24:13Z H4ns: jusss: why don't you read through a beginner text on common lisp?
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2014-05-06T06:26:29Z phadthai: jusss: notable and freely accessible are Practical Common Lisp, and Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation
2014-05-06T06:26:43Z phadthai: the latter is more introductory
2014-05-06T06:27:10Z jusss: i see
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2014-05-06T06:28:14Z phadthai: I'm not sure if I understand your question, but if you want to store a list in a variable, that can be done, of course
2014-05-06T06:28:42Z phadthai: using defparameter, defvar, let or setf
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2014-05-06T06:29:16Z phadthai: also of interest is http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/index.htm but it's more useful as a reference than as an introduction
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2014-05-06T06:34:42Z jusss: thx
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2014-05-06T10:41:41Z otwieracz: Is paste.lisp.org dead? :(
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2014-05-06T10:47:18Z _death: works for me
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2014-05-06T11:04:53Z phadthai: otwieracz: I also get connection timeout, possibly some routes work and others don't depending on isp/network
2014-05-06T11:05:07Z phadthai: hmm I get a ping response though so maybe something else
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2014-05-06T11:06:19Z otwieracz: Already up and running for me.
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2014-05-06T11:08:51Z phadthai: it was still timing out but it now just loaded here
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2014-05-06T11:11:41Z stassats: well
2014-05-06T11:11:55Z stassats: it crashes when displaying paste 141077
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2014-05-06T11:20:10Z JuanDaugherty: doesn't appear to be routing for me in western ny with time warner
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2014-05-06T11:30:57Z leo2007: In `(+ 2 `(* 3 ,@(4))), which backquote form is eval'd first?
2014-05-06T11:31:54Z loke: the ,@ is evaluated by the outer backgoute
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2014-05-06T11:32:19Z loke: to evaluate it in the context of the inner backquote you need `( ... `( ... ,,@(4)))
2014-05-06T11:32:28Z leo2007: the spec says the innermost is eval'd first, what does it mean?
2014-05-06T11:32:39Z loke: leo2007: Well, I could be wrong :-)
2014-05-06T11:32:45Z loke: Unfortunately, I have to leave the office now
2014-05-06T11:33:25Z leo2007: loke: thanks anyway ;)
2014-05-06T11:33:27Z stassats: everything is broken
2014-05-06T11:34:26Z stassats: i can't boot 3.14 kernel, upgrading grub killed booting completely, lisppaste fails to display a paste, and while trying to fix that, sbcl got a broken readtable which is triggered by lisppasted
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2014-05-06T11:42:57Z stassats: it is actually slime that got broken by a change in sbcl, triggered by lisppaste
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2014-05-06T12:02:40Z Viaken: Sounds like a bad day, stassats. Just go back to bed and try again tomorrow.
2014-05-06T12:03:21Z stassats: fixed slime, and fixed lisppaste, got a backup grub from another hard-disk, and the 3.14 kernel can go to hell
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2014-05-06T12:04:44Z stassats: but common-lisp.net is definitely broken
2014-05-06T12:06:26Z stassats: and a fixed paste.lisp.org is up, as long as you can connect to it (couldn't hot-patch, because a typed an unbound variable into the repl, causing a restart)
2014-05-06T12:07:00Z stassats: http://paste.lisp.org/display/141077 can be displayed again
2014-05-06T12:07:06Z stassats: or rather, for the first time
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2014-05-06T12:07:35Z stassats: took only 3 months to notice
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2014-05-06T12:12:16Z hitecnologys: stassats: what happened?
2014-05-06T12:12:27Z stassats: to what?
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2014-05-06T12:12:48Z hitecnologys: > fixed slime, and fixed lisppaste, got a backup grub from another hard-disk, and the 3.14 kernel can go to hell
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2014-05-06T12:13:17Z stassats: you have to be more specific, it's 4 different problems
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2014-05-06T12:13:25Z stassats: and the latter two are off-topic
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2014-05-06T12:15:21Z hitecnologys: What happened to lisppaste and common-lisp.net that made you say you fixed first one and the latter is broken?
2014-05-06T12:15:54Z stassats: common-lisp.net network connection is broken, to see if there was a problem with lisppaste, i connected to it and noticed a backtrace
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2014-05-06T12:16:25Z stassats: fixed the error causing it, and noticed that it took two tries to do git pull from github on common-lisp.net
2014-05-06T12:16:50Z hitecnologys: And what's with that 141077 paste you mentioned?
2014-05-06T12:17:15Z stassats: i'm not going to explain everything!
2014-05-06T12:17:43Z hitecnologys: Not even in general?
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2014-05-06T12:17:52Z stassats: nope
2014-05-06T12:18:08Z hitecnologys: I see. OK, then.
2014-05-06T12:18:09Z stassats: if you are so curious, you can find out for yourself
2014-05-06T12:18:13Z hitecnologys: s/,//
2014-05-06T12:18:42Z hitecnologys: Nah, I'm too lazy to do that.
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2014-05-06T12:34:30Z meow271: im still having trouble understanding loops, but im trying to write a loop that traverses a list, has an initial assignment in the loop and waits for 1 specific event to happen. if the event happens, do one operation and exit the function
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2014-05-06T12:37:02Z aerique: meow271: (loop for item in '(a b c) initially (format t "hi~%") when (equal item 'b) do (format t "bye~%") (loop-finish))
2014-05-06T12:37:38Z samebchase: meow271: you can paste the fragment of code you are having trouble with
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2014-05-06T13:16:57Z leo2007: hi
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2014-05-06T13:26:38Z meow271: hello
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2014-05-06T14:31:13Z meow271: is there a find function that returns the index of a key in a list?
2014-05-06T14:31:33Z |3b|: clhs position
2014-05-06T14:31:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pos_p.htm
2014-05-06T14:31:49Z meow271: |3b| thanks!
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2014-05-06T15:25:52Z dkcl: Hmm. I seem to be having some trouble with USOCKET
2014-05-06T15:26:14Z dkcl: http://paste.lisp.org/+31W3
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2014-05-06T15:26:39Z dkcl: I'm getting strings from a TCP socket word by word, not as whole strings
2014-05-06T15:27:08Z mood: That's because you are using READ
2014-05-06T15:27:21Z dkcl: I suspected as much, but I'm really not sure what I should use
2014-05-06T15:27:36Z mood: READ reads one Lisp object from a stream, in this case they're all read as symbols
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2014-05-06T15:28:02Z mood: You can use READ-LINE to read lines from a stream, or READ-CHAR to read a single character
2014-05-06T15:28:21Z dkcl is amazed he had actually forgotten about READ-LINE
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2014-05-06T15:28:37Z dkcl is embarassed
2014-05-06T15:28:40Z dkcl: mood: Thanks!
2014-05-06T15:28:49Z dlowe: read-line kind of sucks on TCP because it blocks
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2014-05-06T15:31:28Z mood: dlowe: Yes, that can be a problem. If what you are writing is an IRC bot (which I guessed from the paste), it's not too much of a problem because you are going to be responding to IRC messages (You can use threads if you also want to asynchronously send things to the stream)
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2014-05-06T15:32:20Z dkcl: Indeed
2014-05-06T15:32:25Z mood: In the IRC library I've written (https://github.com/jorams/birch) I also use READ-LINE
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2014-05-06T15:38:56Z drewc would like to say that IRC packets are not Lisp syntax at all, so using READ'ers makes little sense.
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2014-05-06T15:39:51Z hitecnologys: Xach: as far as I can tell from quick glance at ASDF system definitions from all quicklisp packages available, many packages don't use unified version format. If anybody wants to start using versions, someone should probably make a standard that defines one (or several) acceptable version strings format(s).
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2014-05-06T15:40:35Z hitecnologys: Xach: I'm not done yet, though. Still grepping files and plotting graphs.
2014-05-06T15:40:40Z mood: drewc: What do you mean? READ-LINE doesn't seem related to lisp syntax at all.
2014-05-06T15:40:53Z drewc: I will make a standard now! it better be followed! :P
2014-05-06T15:41:32Z drewc has just woken up so is likely not making sense even to himself
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2014-05-06T15:43:10Z hitecnologys: drewc: well, don't. My nonsense must be filtered and preprocessed before interpreting.
2014-05-06T15:43:44Z drewc: mood: true, and if you think of it as ASCII text, formed in lines .... then it may work....
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2014-05-06T15:45:04Z mood: drewc: Well, IRC is ASCII text, separated by CRLF (I use flexi-streams for proper eol-style). Most servers and clients nowadays don't have a problem with UTF-8, though.
2014-05-06T15:46:08Z drewc: so, read-line only works if you tell your lisp that the stream is Windows based for end-of-line?
2014-05-06T15:46:24Z drewc: flexi streams yeah, that workd
2014-05-06T15:46:31Z drewc: works
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2014-05-06T15:47:04Z mood: Well, if your lisp implementation uses LF as end of line it also works, because LF is an illegal character inside messages. You might have to strip out the CR part
2014-05-06T15:47:06Z Xach: hitecnologys: ASDF places some constraints on what it considers an acceptable version string.
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2014-05-06T15:47:53Z drewc: as does threads and sockets ... so why use READ-LINE at all when we are avoiding the standard in general? :P
2014-05-06T15:49:06Z enn: Good morning ... I see three similar libaries in quicklisp: inotify, cl-inotify, and cl-fsnotify. Can anyone recommend one of these over the others?
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2014-05-06T15:49:37Z mood: Because it's a single function call, meaning you won't have to find the line boundaries yourself. It's just convenient
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2014-05-06T15:50:46Z hitecnologys: Xach: sure thing, but both 2014.01.01 and 0.0.1 are acceptable version strings. However, none of these seem acceptable to me (except for, maybe, second one, as it does tell me something about state of the project and is at least rememberable).
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2014-05-06T15:51:16Z Xach: hitecnologys: No, it will complain about 2014.01.01
2014-05-06T15:52:27Z hitecnologys: Xach: aha, my bad. 20140101 should do the trick then.
2014-05-06T15:52:59Z hitecnologys: Xach: or anytihing like that, I think you get the idea.
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2014-05-06T15:53:43Z Xach: I don't. 0.0.1 doesn't tell you anything unless the author and you agree on what it means.
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2014-05-06T15:57:19Z hitecnologys: That's the point. Someone should define some kind of standard that would specify default meaning of versions so authors could just use that meaning instead of inventing their own version naming schemes all the time. There should also be a possibility to overwrite the standard by defining version explaination somewhere in the project (or in the place defined by the standard).
2014-05-06T15:58:07Z hitecnologys: (and yes, I like standards that much)
2014-05-06T15:58:45Z hlavaty: enn: you can also run shell command "inotifywait -m /tmp" and read and parse the output; that way it will even work with lisps that dont have native threads:-)
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2014-05-06T16:00:34Z enn: true
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2014-05-06T16:01:31Z drewc: mood: fair enough. I just have come to prefer streams that are a certain colour and avoiding READ* in general... for 99% of the time it matters not.
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2014-05-06T16:16:56Z oleo: what's the problem with (defun count-nodes (exp)
2014-05-06T16:16:56Z oleo:   "return the total number of non-nil elems in exp"
2014-05-06T16:16:56Z oleo:   (cond
2014-05-06T16:16:56Z oleo:                 ((null exp) 1)
2014-05-06T16:16:56Z oleo:                 ((consp exp) 1)
2014-05-06T16:16:57Z oleo:                 (t (+
2014-05-06T16:16:59Z oleo:                                 (count-nodes (car exp))
2014-05-06T16:17:01Z oleo:                                 (count-nodes (cdr exp))))))
2014-05-06T16:17:03Z oleo: ups
2014-05-06T16:17:05Z H4ns: oleo: use paste.lisp.org
2014-05-06T16:17:11Z oleo: ok wait
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2014-05-06T16:17:37Z fortitude: hitecnologys: it seems like the less-involved issue at hand isn't so much semantic versions, as being able to reliably order them
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2014-05-06T16:17:54Z Bike: well here's one: you return 1 on nulls, duh
2014-05-06T16:18:12Z fortitude: hitecnologys: if you can do that, than anybody with dependencies can choose when they'd like to update (based on whatever scheme the dep's author is using)
2014-05-06T16:18:19Z Bike: and you try to recur when it's /not/ a cons, this is dumb
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2014-05-06T16:19:00Z oleo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142420
2014-05-06T16:19:20Z oleo: even if i don't return 1 on nulls.....
2014-05-06T16:19:40Z oleo: even if i use listp instead of consp.....
2014-05-06T16:19:43Z Xach: oleo: why do you return 1 on consp?
2014-05-06T16:19:47Z Bike: look, you return 1 on conses and then try to recur on conses, you didn't think about this at all
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2014-05-06T16:20:51Z jasom: oleo: also it's not clear if exp is to be treated as a tree or list
2014-05-06T16:21:02Z ggole: Adding one for a cons is the right idea, but doing it while excluding the recursion is a mistake.
2014-05-06T16:21:20Z oleo: ah
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2014-05-06T16:21:34Z jasom: ggole: you want 1 for non-null, not 1 for consp; atoms are also non-null
2014-05-06T16:21:59Z ggole: Depends on the definition of elems, I guess
2014-05-06T16:22:32Z jasom: if exp is supposed to be treated as a list, then it's completely unambiguous, as what the elements of a list of is well defined
2014-05-06T16:22:37Z hitecnologys: fortitude: indeed that sounds like a good idea.
2014-05-06T16:22:55Z oleo: right exp is a list.....
2014-05-06T16:23:37Z ggole: Then why are you recursing in the the list elements?
2014-05-06T16:24:34Z jasom: oleo: rename car and cdr to "first" and "rest" if you aren't familiar with what car and cdr do; it will become immidiately clear what's wrong with this.
2014-05-06T16:25:49Z jasom: (also you'll want the (null exp) case to return 0, not 1, as the terminating nil is not considered an element of the list, but that's not even remotely the biggest problem with what you have so far)
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2014-05-06T16:41:06Z meow271: is sort and stable-sort assumed to using something better than a avg: O(n^2) algorithm?
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2014-05-06T16:44:25Z Bike: well, probably. sbcl uses merge sort
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2014-05-06T16:49:10Z dlowe: meow271: there's https://github.com/dlowe-net/cl-sort if you want more sorts
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2014-05-06T16:51:17Z meow271: dlowe: thanks
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2014-05-06T16:52:46Z meow271: ummmm does lisp do any magic allowing these algorithms to work with lists
2014-05-06T16:52:48Z meow271: ?
2014-05-06T16:53:10Z jasom: meow271: merge-sort is trivial on lists
2014-05-06T16:53:11Z dlowe: (coerce foo 'vector)
2014-05-06T16:53:42Z meow271: jasom: touche
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2014-05-06T16:56:19Z jasom: Though each split becomes O(n) instead of O(1) it doesn't change the overall complexity, and it requires less extra space than a vector merge-sort (on the other-hand the total space for a vector merge-sort will be less even after accounting for the extra space, if you are using a specialized vector that the implementation can handle efficiently)
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2014-05-06T17:20:39Z Vivitron: meow271: quicksort is a bit tricky on lists but doable: just accessing every element by it's index would grow with n^2, but that can be avoided by holding the current cdr as you walk the list.
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2014-05-06T17:23:54Z meow271: noted
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2014-05-06T17:55:10Z jasom: Vivitron: doesn't seem tricky at all.  (loop for item in list if (< item radix) collect item into lower else collect item into upper finally return (values lower upper))
2014-05-06T17:55:35Z Vivitron: jasom: quicksort also sorts in place
2014-05-06T17:55:40Z jasom: Vivitron: obviously you'd want to do a in-place version of that
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2014-05-06T17:56:51Z jasom: Vivitron: with rplacd and rplca you can do it similar as in-place
2014-05-06T17:57:15Z jasom: Vivitron: and every quicksort I've seen requires O(n) extra space
2014-05-06T17:58:13Z Vivitron: jasom: I believe quicksort is supposed to rotate the elements in place
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2014-05-06T17:58:14Z jasom: since you have O(n) recursions in the worst-case and it's not tail-recursive
2014-05-06T17:58:31Z Vivitron: jasom: ah.
2014-05-06T17:59:00Z jasom: Quicksort worst-case is O(n) space and O(n^2) time
2014-05-06T17:59:26Z jasom: a well implemented one will have nearly nil chance of seeing that on non-malicious data though.
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2014-05-06T18:00:06Z Vivitron: jasom: by tricky I may mean that more likely than not if you see something labelled quicksort for lists it will either cons new lists or access every element by index
2014-05-06T18:00:54Z jasom: Vivitron: well that's dumb; any divide-and-conquer sort on lists is easy to do without doing that
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2014-05-06T18:03:43Z jasom: (loop while list with lower = nil with upper = nil for (start . rest) = list if (< start radix) (setf (cdr list) lower) (setf (cdr list) upper) do (setf list rest))
2014-05-06T18:04:01Z jasom: there's the in-place split
2014-05-06T18:04:09Z Vivitron: jasom: unrelated: I made an implementation of an alternate syntax for symbol package names for fun. I used the regular symbol syntax, where the prefix is looked up in the current *package*
2014-05-06T18:04:57Z jasom: Vivitron: how do you specify e.g. cl-user if it's not imported into the current *package*?
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2014-05-06T18:05:04Z jasom: is that impossible?
2014-05-06T18:05:18Z Vivitron: jasom: it defaults to the global package name
2014-05-06T18:05:52Z Vivitron: jasom: so cl-user:bar would look up my-package:cl-user, find that the symbol doesn't exist or doesn't have a custom package reference, then use cl-user
2014-05-06T18:05:58Z jasom: So each package now has an additional namespace for packages?
2014-05-06T18:06:44Z Vivitron: jasom: that's a way to look at it
2014-05-06T18:07:05Z Bike: you should do like whoever was proposing and have the normal package names be keywords
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2014-05-06T18:07:16Z jasom: Bike: that was me
2014-05-06T18:07:36Z Bike: there you go then
2014-05-06T18:07:53Z jasom: And I'm assuming Vivitron is aware of it, which is why he's talking to me about his syntax
2014-05-06T18:08:04Z Vivitron: that's right
2014-05-06T18:08:30Z Bike: i'll show myself out, then
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2014-05-06T18:09:25Z jasom: The symbols-as-package-names was just to try it out; I was reading an old c.l.l thread that was talking about package-name issues and someone mentioned "We solved the name-space clash for symbols by having packages" which led me to use symbols.  Then I realized I needed a cannonical global namespace for symbols-as-identifiers and said "oh, that's what KEYWORD is for"
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2014-05-06T18:09:36Z Vivitron: Bike: it's fine, I thought jasom's idea was interesting and wanted to see what it would be like without changing symbol syntax
2014-05-06T18:09:59Z jasom: Vivitron: someone did a file-local or package-local nicknames without hooking into the reader, I think.
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2014-05-06T18:10:32Z Vivitron: jasom: I also implemented readtable-local at the same time as package symbol, but haven't played with it yet
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2014-05-06T18:11:07Z Vivitron: jasom: but, I've only implemented them as reader references, no package-nicknames and friends
2014-05-06T18:11:11Z jasom: https://github.com/3b/package-local-nicknames
2014-05-06T18:11:54Z jasom: oh, it looks like that got folded into sbcl: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Package_002dLocal-Nicknames
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2014-05-06T18:13:27Z Vivitron: I think I came across such ideas from sbcl's package-local-nicknames
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2014-05-06T18:15:16Z jasom: The thing that made me decide the syntax needed to change was the desire for heirarchal packages so e.g. foo:bar::baz would work
2014-05-06T18:16:38Z Vivitron: I was using a package per file setup, and they all wanted the to use the same nicknames, which was a bit repetitive with package-local-nicknames, so I was considering the merits of importable nicknames
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2014-05-06T18:16:59Z jasom: That would allow a larger system to easily compartmentalize itself (which can reduce bugs in your macrology) while not needing to do the foo.bar.baz or foo/bar/baz package name hack (What if you had my-frabjous-http-library/client and wanted to nickname it to http/client)
2014-05-06T18:17:31Z mood: jasom: I think there's a typo in the repo description of spm-reader on Github. "Toy symbol reader for lisT that uses..."
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2014-05-06T18:17:39Z jasom: mood: oops
2014-05-06T18:17:51Z jasom: mood: someone wanted to see it so I added a quick readme and put it up on github
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2014-05-06T18:20:03Z jasom: oh, it's in the short description, not the readme
2014-05-06T18:20:17Z mood: Yes, sorry if that wasn't clear
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2014-05-06T18:20:35Z jasom: mood: I just did a C-f on the gh page and found it, no biggie
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2014-05-06T18:22:17Z jasom: Vivitron: if you exported the symbols used for aliases in my system and then used that package it should inherit as well, though I haven't tried that
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2014-05-06T18:23:55Z Vivitron: jasom: it's how I imagined using your setup, I don't think I really understood your intention until just now:)
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2014-05-06T18:32:37Z jasom: Vivitron: the lack of true heirarchy for the package system was an annoyance, along with the name-clashing.  Solving the first solves the second for free.
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2014-05-06T18:38:09Z msmith: hey everyone.  Can anyone give me an example of how to use the listen directive with postmodern?
2014-05-06T18:39:27Z H4ns: msmith: i wrote some docs for that, did you check that out?  does it not help?
2014-05-06T18:39:38Z H4ns: msmith: https://github.com/marijnh/Postmodern/commit/bc35bb49b0948b0bdcd924a36b3b945d4b1b5cb6
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2014-05-06T18:47:29Z msmith: H4ns: I'm looking for a basic example of how to use it in code.  I mean, do you use it with query or by itself like (:listen "mychannel")?
2014-05-06T18:47:42Z msmith: which I tried btw
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2014-05-06T18:49:17Z fiveop: Similarly, I'm looking for a well written project using common-qt, that is more complex than the tutorials. I have a few questions, I hope to answer, by looking at it.
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2014-05-06T18:52:43Z msmith: H4ns:  would you recommend just using the wait-for-notification function?
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2014-05-06T19:02:54Z H4ns: msmith: i'll be back in 30
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2014-05-06T19:15:50Z H4ns: msmith: i've been using wait-for-notification
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2014-05-06T19:16:32Z H4ns: msmith: and (pomo:execute (:listen 'the-channel))
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2014-05-06T19:22:26Z msmith: H4ns:  Thanks, is there a way to use this code without putting it in a loop an busy waiting?
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2014-05-06T19:24:32Z msmith: I guess you would use it in conjunction with wait-for-notification
2014-05-06T19:24:35Z H4ns: msmith: wait-for-notification waits for something to happen.
2014-05-06T19:24:49Z H4ns: msmith: you call listen once, then you loop over wait-for-notification
2014-05-06T19:25:13Z msmith: ok gotcha, thanks.
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2014-05-06T19:26:10Z puchacz: hi, I am playing with cl-smtp:send-email (backed - postfix) and whatever I send to myself, it goes to spam....
2014-05-06T19:26:29Z H4ns: msmith: i also wrote this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142423
2014-05-06T19:26:37Z puchacz: is there a tutorial on how to build messages that they are not filtered out by gmail please?
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2014-05-06T19:44:39Z interlocutor: puchacz: you mean how to spam gmail with unsolicited messages? have you tried fucking yourself yet?
2014-05-06T19:45:23Z puchacz: I would say mind your language dude
2014-05-06T19:45:55Z interlocutor: I'd say get a real job.
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2014-05-06T19:48:08Z p_l: I'd say that such a question doesn't necessarily mean someone is spamming. Spammers unfortunately made it problematic on people who send legitimate emails as well
2014-05-06T19:49:51Z interlocutor: there is no such thing as a legitimate unsolicited email message.
2014-05-06T19:50:11Z mood: That's true, but he never said anything indicating it was unsolicited email
2014-05-06T19:50:13Z _death: if you ever tried sending, say, a signup verification form.. you'd know that gmail filters may not be the best friends
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2014-05-06T19:50:46Z interlocutor: perhaps I'm just ignorant of some edgecases I've never experienced myself.
2014-05-06T19:50:48Z p_l: hell, even a mailing list that you signed up for is hard, which is partially how MailChimp gets its clients
2014-05-06T19:51:02Z puchacz: _death: I am totally green about emails; I am reading this for example: http://serverfault.com/questions/48428/how-to-send-emails-and-avoid-them-being-classified-as-spam
2014-05-06T19:51:07Z interlocutor: I've never had an issue with gmail filters and I work with a lot of clients who send out newsletters and such
2014-05-06T19:51:28Z interlocutor: but yeah, pretty much 99% sure this guy is trying to send unsolicited mail
2014-05-06T19:51:28Z puchacz: I don't even know if I should be experimenting repeatedly - maybe gmail will "learn" that my domain is to be blacklisted
2014-05-06T19:51:47Z Xach has problems with lots of cron emails ending up gmail filtered
2014-05-06T19:52:08Z puchacz: interlocutor: please stop spamminng the channel - I am trying to discuss a technical problem here
2014-05-06T19:52:30Z p_l: I have several notification emails that only go through because I manually added a filter that makes them non-spam
2014-05-06T19:52:32Z interlocutor: it would seem to me that the only one spamming anyone else is you
2014-05-06T19:52:45Z interlocutor: but I digress, whatever
2014-05-06T19:52:55Z p_l: anyway, let's go back to actual question, which involved cl-smtp
2014-05-06T19:52:59Z puchacz: Xach: do you use postfix out of the box?
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2014-05-06T19:54:39Z puchacz: and if your cron has to send say 100 messages, do you just fire them out en masse? or any pauses between them etc.?
2014-05-06T19:54:39Z Xach: puchacz: no
2014-05-06T19:54:43Z rszeno: puchacz, https://support.google.com/mail/answer/9008?hl=en
2014-05-06T19:55:24Z puchacz: rszeno: true, but it is only good if I send these messages to myself :-)
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2014-05-06T19:55:46Z puchacz: Xach: no - not postfix out of the box you mean?
2014-05-06T19:56:13Z Xach: puchacz: I don't use postfix, no.
2014-05-06T19:56:26Z puchacz: can you elaborate please?
2014-05-06T19:56:42Z rszeno: send to you and look to the the headers, see plain text
2014-05-06T19:56:43Z puchacz: maybe I'd better be without cl-smtp/postfix altogether
2014-05-06T19:57:32Z Xach: puchacz: How can I elaborate? I don't use postfix.
2014-05-06T19:57:34Z H4ns: mandrill is nice, and they have a json/rest api
2014-05-06T19:57:45Z puchacz: Xach: what do you use instead
2014-05-06T19:58:11Z Xach: puchacz: I use exim most of the time. when i was accepting incoming mail I configured qmail to do it.
2014-05-06T19:58:40Z H4ns: uh oh, i thought i was the last exim user
2014-05-06T19:59:06Z Xach uses exim because it's the default on debian
2014-05-06T19:59:28Z H4ns: i have an elaborate custom configuration that i've been carrying around for years
2014-05-06T19:59:29Z puchacz: do I have to use some "domain authentication" mechanisms?
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2014-05-06T20:00:00Z H4ns: puchacz: if you don't want to become an email expert, i'd really recommend using a delivery service like mandrill
2014-05-06T20:00:08Z H4ns: puchacz: it is free for light use anyway
2014-05-06T20:00:19Z puchacz: H4ns: yeah, I'd rather be a programmer
2014-05-06T20:00:31Z puchacz: mandrill then?
2014-05-06T20:00:38Z mood: mandrill and mailgun both offer generous free plans
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2014-05-06T20:00:56Z Xach: H4ns: you are the last in that category i'm sure.
2014-05-06T20:00:58Z H4ns: puchacz: mandrill i can only recommend it based on positive experience with it.
2014-05-06T20:01:52Z puchacz: I don't have tons of emails to send, so I am not too worried about charges of external senders
2014-05-06T20:02:06Z puchacz: ok, anyway - thanks. I will read on about mandrill
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2014-05-06T20:03:28Z puchacz: I also take that thing like mandrill will look a lot more trustworthy for gmail than my fly-by-night server....
2014-05-06T20:05:18Z H4ns: puchacz: as long as you don't send actual spam, you'll have a much better chance that your email is delivered, yes.  consider using the json/rest api, that way you'll leave all the formatting issues to mandrill which is safer than trying and screwing up yourself.
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2014-05-06T20:06:55Z puchacz: H4ns: great, that's what I need - lightweight use and I really don't want to learn bolts and nuts. do you use drakma with something to encode json to talk to it?
2014-05-06T20:07:11Z H4ns: puchacz: i use drakma and yason, yes.
2014-05-06T20:07:19Z puchacz: H4ns: thanks
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2014-05-06T20:22:19Z jasom has used mailgun and it was crazy easy to get setup
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2014-05-06T20:26:49Z puchacz: jasom: thx, taking note
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2014-05-06T21:40:24Z moore: Is anyone using cl-glfw3 with sbcl?
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2014-05-06T21:45:30Z rpg: Anyone affiliated with common-lisp.net out there?  Email to admin@common-lisp.net just bounced with no such user....
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2014-05-06T21:45:54Z LiamH: rpg: I would like to know as well.
2014-05-06T21:46:42Z LiamH: Apparently they restored mailman, but none of my passwords work, so everyday I get "moderator approval needed" messages for spam. And, like you, I found that admin email bounced.
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2014-05-06T21:51:37Z rpg: The asdf-devel list is working fine now (I got the admin pw and everything), but there's been a lot of flux in the email. And the email address to which we are to report problems is still busted.
2014-05-06T21:52:03Z rpg: H4ns was here yesterday, and fixed some issues; wish I had known about this the
2014-05-06T21:52:06Z rpg: then.
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2014-05-06T21:58:22Z LiamH: I guess you could use minion to leave him a message.
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2014-05-06T21:58:36Z rpg: If I knew how to use minion ;-)
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2014-05-06T21:58:59Z rpg: minion is like normal software except everyone you know can see you screw up using it....
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2014-05-06T21:59:05Z LiamH: minion: tell rpg how to use minion
2014-05-06T21:59:05Z minion: rpg: please stop playing with me... i am not a toy
2014-05-06T21:59:19Z rpg: minion: help
2014-05-06T21:59:19Z minion: There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms".
2014-05-06T21:59:36Z LiamH: memos are what you want
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2014-05-06T22:00:26Z rpg: LiamH: Done.  That wasn't so bad.
2014-05-06T22:00:59Z LiamH: rpg: you did it as a private message?
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2014-05-06T22:01:07Z rpg: Yes.
2014-05-06T22:01:22Z LiamH: So... it's exactly like normal software.
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2014-05-06T22:02:25Z rpg: LiamH: Now that it's responded to me on a private channel, I knew to memo ditto.
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2014-05-06T22:07:31Z rpg: By the way, ASDF 3.1 is released today!
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2014-05-06T22:13:50Z Denommus: rpg: cool
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2014-05-06T22:41:48Z pjb: Good Evening!  Back from ELS2014.  Globally quite a successful instance :-)  Thanks to the organizers and speakers.
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2014-05-07T02:52:06Z meow271: is it possible in list to have a function fun1 and a function fun2, such that either one can be called directly with fun3 as if fun3 was the name of fun2 or fun1?
2014-05-07T02:52:25Z Bike: How do you choose which?
2014-05-07T02:52:56Z meow271: right before i need to do a particular procedure. the procedure is 5 lines
2014-05-07T02:53:08Z meow271: so 50% chance one or the other happends
2014-05-07T02:53:13Z meow271: and the only difference is the function name
2014-05-07T02:53:21Z meow271: parameters are the same, just output is a bit different
2014-05-07T02:55:27Z Bike: might as well (defun fun3 (&rest args) (if (< (random 1.0) 0.5) (apply #'fun1 args) (apply #'fun2 args)))
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2014-05-07T03:11:25Z loke: Bike: Not random enough. Better use a cryptographically secure random routine
2014-05-07T03:11:48Z loke: Bike:  or you could interface with http://www.random.org/clients/http/
2014-05-07T03:11:54Z Bike: oh thank god for a second i thought you were serious
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2014-05-07T03:15:15Z meow271: now that you guys mention it, is it better to do percents rather than if (< (random 100) 3)? (4%)
2014-05-07T03:16:55Z loke: meow271: % has no specific meaning in LIsp
2014-05-07T03:17:27Z meow271: (< (random 100) 3) vs (< (random 1.0) .03)
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2014-05-07T03:18:13Z loke: meow271: the latter has greater prescicion, but may be slower if your system has poor floatin gpoint performance
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2014-05-07T03:18:47Z quazi: hey all
2014-05-07T03:19:03Z meow271: loke: im just trying to figure out if the probability is the same in that case
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2014-05-07T03:22:39Z quazi: i have a style question; say we have a class of Items wih some slots, and we do a query on them to get some Matches which have some rating value on how strongly they satisf the query, does it make more sense to mutate the item objects (ie they have a rating slot that we set) or should i have a separate Match class where i instantiate new objects. no parallel computing is happening yet, though i may want that in the future, and after the query i guess its ok to 
2014-05-07T03:23:58Z quazi: im not certain what the 'wise' choice is because there may be 10000 or more Items in a coolection
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2014-05-07T03:24:52Z quazi: Items an Matches would also share significant data...
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2014-05-07T03:25:19Z rpg: meow271: Did you get an answer to your question? Those two random expressions are not the same.
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2014-05-07T03:33:39Z meow271: rpg: nope. are they not the same in respect to probability? i konw that the floating point can be more precise if needed.
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2014-05-07T03:38:59Z rpg: meow271: One is a discrete distribution, and one is (an approximation of) a continuous distribution.
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2014-05-07T03:40:47Z meow271: rpg: is there a proof that the continuous distribution for a 3% chance is better than a discrete distribution?
2014-05-07T03:41:14Z Bike: "better"?
2014-05-07T03:41:28Z Bike: 3/100 is obviously possible discretely.
2014-05-07T03:41:30Z rpg: meow271: they are just different things.  There isn't one that's "better".  That's like asking if a normal distribution is better than a binomial distirbution.
2014-05-07T03:41:37Z meow271: yeah better was poor word choice
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2014-05-07T03:41:52Z rpg: (random 100) returns an integer.  (random 1.0) returns a float.
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2014-05-07T03:43:48Z meow271: i suppose my question is if one simulates randomness more accurately for a 3% chance...? or this soley depends on the random seed
2014-05-07T03:44:16Z Bike: 3% is discrete, so
2014-05-07T03:45:07Z meow271 thinks he gets it
2014-05-07T03:45:50Z meow271: I think that answers my original question
2014-05-07T03:46:00Z Bike: you don't need to second-guess your library PRNGs, really, unless you're doing crypto
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2014-05-07T03:47:34Z rpg: meow271: I think you should be more worried about how well the random function simulates a uniform distribution...  I'd bet most modern CL implementations should have good functions.  Just take the one that gives you the data type you want.
2014-05-07T03:48:33Z meow271: rpg: noted, thanks! :)
2014-05-07T03:48:46Z meow271: and thanks Bike
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2014-05-07T03:53:44Z rpg: goodnight!
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2014-05-07T04:26:35Z waressearcher2: is there lisp offtopic channel ?
2014-05-07T04:28:24Z Bike: #lisp-cafe, dunno if anyone uses it
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2014-05-07T04:39:17Z waressearcher2: so its possible for anyone to change topic here ?
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2014-05-07T04:41:43Z waressearcher2: H4ns: sup
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2014-05-07T08:03:56Z quazimodo: do we have such a thnig as relative path names in CL ?
2014-05-07T08:04:53Z H4ns: pathnames can be merged, and many pathname related functions use *default-pathnames-defaults* as default
2014-05-07T08:04:53Z minion: H4ns, memo from rpg: It seems like admin@common-lisp.net is not working. Several of us are getting no such user errors.
2014-05-07T08:05:28Z quazimodo: hrm
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2014-05-07T09:19:45Z easye: Hmm.  Looking for a library to copy files recursively.  CL-FAD seems like I could do it with WALK-DIRECTORY and a bit of pathname munging, but I'm in a hurry.  Any quick suggestions (other than just using rsync?)
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2014-05-07T09:24:28Z H4ns: easye: use rsync
2014-05-07T09:24:30Z H4ns: oh wait
2014-05-07T09:24:48Z easye: H4ns: waiting.
2014-05-07T09:24:53Z easye: Missed ya at ELS...
2014-05-07T09:25:05Z H4ns: easye: seriously, doing a robust recursive copy will be hard to do in any language.  you're better off using rsync.
2014-05-07T09:25:18Z easye: Check.  Thanks for the advice.
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2014-05-07T09:34:53Z waressearcher2: H4ns: sup
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2014-05-07T10:09:15Z pjb: Bike: it's #lispcafe. If you don't know, go to http://cliki.net/IRC
2014-05-07T10:10:42Z pjb: minion: memo for quazimodo: of course!  There's even: (make-pathname :directory '(:relative "subdir" "subsubdir")).
2014-05-07T10:10:42Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell quazimodo when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-05-07T10:13:03Z pjb: easye: there's com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:copy-directory ;  but I use pure CL stuff, so I only copy the files and directories that are reported by CL:DIRECTORY.
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2014-05-07T10:54:24Z pillton: Is there a way to customise the TYPE-OF function so that it returns something like (and something (not simple-something)) for a given object?
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2014-05-07T10:58:15Z H4ns: ls
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2014-05-07T11:06:10Z pjb: pillton: It wouldn't be conforming.  cf. clhs type-of
2014-05-07T11:06:21Z pjb: But nothing prevents you to define your own typing function.
2014-05-07T11:07:32Z pillton: pjb: Yeah, I couldn't find anything in the hyperspec. I thought I would ask just to check.
2014-05-07T11:08:30Z pillton: pjb: It is strange that this is the case given what TYPE-OF returns for displaced arrays.
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2014-05-07T11:09:15Z pjb: The problem is that there is in general an infinite number of types for a given object.
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2014-05-07T11:11:09Z pillton: Yes, but why does the standard hide the true class of displaced arrays?
2014-05-07T11:12:09Z pillton: I'd like to do the same thing for my object, but I can't.
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2014-05-07T11:13:33Z |3b|`: the class of an array is array (or vector when applicable)
2014-05-07T11:13:38Z |3b|` is now known as |3b|
2014-05-07T11:14:27Z |3b|: (or string or bit-vector)
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2014-05-07T11:15:56Z pillton: On SBCL there are type specialized variants for (simple-array double-float (*)) and (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*)).
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2014-05-07T11:16:06Z pillton: e.g. (class-of (make-array 10 :element-type 'double-float))
2014-05-07T11:16:38Z |3b| wonders if (and something (not simple-something)) is even conformant if 'something' is a built-in type (like array)
2014-05-07T11:16:44Z pillton: but TYPE-OF returns (simple-array double-float (10))
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2014-05-07T11:17:50Z zolk3ri: ༼ つ Ỏ͖͈̞̩͎̻̫̫̜͉̠̫͕̭̭̫̫̹̗̹͈̼̠̖͍͚̥͈̮̼͕̠̤̯̻̥̬̗̼̳̤̳̬̪̹͚̞̼̠͕̼̠̦͚̫͔̯̹͉͉̘͎͕̼̣̝͙̱̟̹̩̟̳̦̭͉̮̖̭̣̣̞̙̗̜̺̭̻̥͚͙̝̦̲̱͉͖͉̰̦͎̫̣̼͎͍̠̮͓̹̹͉̤̰̗̙͕͇͔̱͕̭͈̳̗̭͔̘̖̺̮̜̠͖̘͓̳͕̟̠̱̫̤͓͔̘̰̲͙͍͇̙͎̣̼̗̖͙̯͉̠̟͈͍͕̪͓̝̩̦̖̹̼̠̘̮͚̟͉̺̜͍͓̯̳̱̻͕̣̳͉̻̭̭̱͍̪̩̭̺͕̺̼̥̪͖̦̟͎̻̰_Ỏ͖͈̞̩͎̻̫̫̜Í
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2014-05-07T11:24:01Z pillton: |3b|: (type-of (make-array 5 :displace-to (make-array 10))) is (and (vector t 5) (not simple-array)) on SBCL.
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2014-05-07T11:24:38Z |3b|: yeah, i'm not sure that is allowed by the spec though
2014-05-07T11:25:49Z pillton: |3b|: Ok. On CCL-1.9 it is just (vector t 5).
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2014-05-07T11:26:35Z pillton: clhs type-of
2014-05-07T11:26:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_tp_of.htm
2014-05-07T11:26:58Z |3b|: 1.b is the part of that page i'm looking at
2014-05-07T11:27:08Z pillton: Looks like it isn't.
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2014-05-07T11:28:12Z pillton: Hmm. I liked that it said it wasn't a simple array.
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2014-05-07T11:31:51Z pillton: It seems like a strange restriction.
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2014-05-07T11:32:42Z |3b|: makes it easier for portable programs to understand types without having to parse arbitrarily complex combinations
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2014-05-07T12:41:49Z meow271: when i run (floor 2.5) it returns .5 instead of 2. how do i get 2?
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2014-05-07T12:42:40Z H4ns: meow271: it does not
2014-05-07T12:42:58Z H4ns: meow271: it returns multiple values, the primary value being 2, the secondary value being .5
2014-05-07T12:43:10Z H4ns: meow271: try (let ((x (floor 2.5))) x)
2014-05-07T12:43:34Z H4ns: meow271: then read up on multiple values and how to access the secondary return values.
2014-05-07T12:43:52Z meow271: H4ns: i see... i was confused. thanks
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2014-05-07T14:17:58Z hitecnologys: Xach: can I rely on number of folders in "quicklisp-projects" repository if I what to know how many projects are in Quicklisp in total?
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2014-05-07T14:18:26Z leo2007: when eval ``(a ,,(+ 1 2) ,(+ 3 4)), is it possible to see how the backquotes are expanded one at a time?
2014-05-07T14:19:51Z Xach: hitecnologys: No. Only projects that successfully build are available in Quicklisp.
2014-05-07T14:20:04Z Xach: hitecnologys: some projects do not build. i don't know which offhand.
2014-05-07T14:20:34Z Xach: hitecnologys: you could diff the project list against the result of ql-dist::(provided-releases (dist "quicklisp")) though.
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2014-05-07T14:23:16Z hitecnologys: Xach: I see.
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2014-05-07T14:25:22Z rpg: H4ns: Would you mind adding ASDF 3.1.2 release to the topic?
2014-05-07T14:25:22Z minion: rpg, memo from H4ns: i got admin@common-lisp.net fixed, thanks for the report.
2014-05-07T14:25:39Z rpg: H4ns: And thanks for fixing the cl.net email!
2014-05-07T14:26:03Z H4ns: rpg: ehu deserves the praise
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2014-05-07T14:26:27Z rpg: Thanks to both of you!
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2014-05-07T14:28:54Z drmeiste_: Is there a way to get old messages from minion?
2014-05-07T14:29:13Z drmeiste_ is now known as drmeister
2014-05-07T14:29:28Z drmeister: minion: help
2014-05-07T14:29:28Z minion: There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms".
2014-05-07T14:29:44Z H4ns: drmeister: you can /query minion if you want to play with it.
2014-05-07T14:31:07Z drmeister: Apparently not.
2014-05-07T14:31:21Z H4ns: uh?  sorry.
2014-05-07T14:31:36Z prxq: yes you can. I just did. /query minion and say "help"
2014-05-07T14:31:45Z drmeister: pjb: Did you send me a memo a couple of days ago about ways around needing backquote processing during bootstrapping?
2014-05-07T14:32:36Z drmeister: I'm sorry - I meant "After interrogating minion I have come to the conclusion that there is no way to access old memos that someone sent to me".
2014-05-07T14:34:54Z hitecnologys: Xach: and if I want to count only projects that are buildable, can I just use (ql-dist::provided-releases (ql::dist "quicklisp"))?
2014-05-07T14:35:15Z Xach: hitecnologys: approximately, yes.
2014-05-07T14:35:30Z pjb: drmeister: I did.
2014-05-07T14:35:31Z hitecnologys: Xach: OK, thanks.
2014-05-07T14:35:51Z Xach: apparently there are now over 1000 releases. yow.
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2014-05-07T14:36:12Z hitecnologys: Yeah, looks like it.
2014-05-07T14:36:16Z pjb: It should be acceptable to write a bootstrapping module in a restricted language, and removing backquote from CL is not a big restriction.
2014-05-07T14:36:30Z drmeister: pjb: Excellent, hello.   I was up to my eyeballs in moving garbage collection and I meant to make a note of your message but lost it.
2014-05-07T14:36:56Z drmeister: pjb: Ah, so I would pre-process all of my macro definitions to remove backquotes.
2014-05-07T14:37:09Z leo2007 looks for help
2014-05-07T14:37:09Z drmeister: Up to the point where I load the backquote processing code?
2014-05-07T14:37:14Z pjb: Well, only the macros you use in the bootstrapping :-)
2014-05-07T14:37:17Z pjb: Yes.
2014-05-07T14:37:51Z pjb: Also, it's quite possible to have simplier (incomplete) macros for bootstrapping.  Then you load the real macros later.
2014-05-07T14:38:02Z hitecnologys: Quicklisp seems to store old versions of packages. How does one remove them from disk?
2014-05-07T14:38:06Z drmeister: Got it - that might speed up my bootstrapping. Thank you.
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2014-05-07T14:38:35Z pjb: leo2007: backquote is not "expanded", it is _read_.
2014-05-07T14:39:03Z pjb: leo2007: There's no hook in the lisp reader, so if you want to trace it, you will have to write your own (or use eg. mine).
2014-05-07T14:39:25Z pjb: leo2007: would it be for debugging that you want that?
2014-05-07T14:40:05Z Xach: hitecnologys: (ql-dist:clean (ql-dist:dist "quicklisp")) is one way.
2014-05-07T14:41:10Z hitecnologys: Xach: out of curiosity, are there other ways (excluding removing all projects via find and regexp or writing bash script)?
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2014-05-07T14:41:49Z leo2007: pjb: the spec uses `expand' though. I want to understand why my expansion of ``(a ,,(+ 1 2) ,(+ 3 4)) differs from sbcl?
2014-05-07T14:42:05Z pjb: leo2007:  you could read
2014-05-07T14:42:08Z pjb: (quote ``(a ,,(+ 1 2) ,(+ 3 4)))
2014-05-07T14:42:11Z Xach: hitecnologys: I don't think so.
2014-05-07T14:42:13Z pjb: to see how ` is read.
2014-05-07T14:42:31Z hitecnologys: Xach: I see.
2014-05-07T14:42:34Z pjb: But some implementation have special processing in the printer to output `.
2014-05-07T14:42:47Z pjb: So you would have to use your own sexp printing function to "dump" it.
2014-05-07T14:44:46Z leo2007: pjb: what the meaning of "innermost backquoted form is expanded first" in spec 2.4.6 backquote?
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2014-05-07T14:48:42Z Viaken: http://kingjamesprogramming.tumblr.com/ - Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil prayed him that he may have to scan the environment for the entry that matches the variable.
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2014-05-07T14:49:16Z Viaken: May be partially off topic, but it was trained on SICP.
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2014-05-07T14:54:41Z eudoxia: a markov chain trained on the CLHS would just be a bunch of random <a> tags
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2014-05-07T15:06:49Z drmeister: In CL you have to explicitly COMPILE-FILE all source files that you want compiled - correct?   Automatically running COMPILE-FILE when you LOAD CL source files is not done - correct?
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2014-05-07T15:07:32Z drmeister: For instance, Python automatically generates a compiled version of a source file whenever you load source code and the source code is more recent than the compiled file.
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2014-05-07T15:08:58Z drmeister: I think Bike once told me that automatically running COMPILE-FILE on a source file and then LOADing the fasl file would have different semantics than LOADing the source wherein every Sexp would be implicitly compiled.
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2014-05-07T15:19:02Z splittist: drmeister: loading a source file and loading a fasl file (for want of a better term) are (potentially) different things. "If the file is a source file and the implementation chooses to perform implicit compilation, load must recognize top level forms as described in Section 3.2.3.1 (Processing of Top Level Forms) and arrange for each top level form to be
2014-05-07T15:19:02Z splittist: executed before beginning implicit compilation of the next." But you knew this.
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2014-05-07T15:40:36Z slyrus: any suggestions for calling lisp functions in other (long-lived) processes (possibly using different lisp implementations)? swank?
2014-05-07T15:41:09Z splittist: zeromq?
2014-05-07T15:42:32Z Xach: Apis?
2014-05-07T15:42:43Z Xach has not tried it but was somewhat excited by the author, description
2014-05-07T15:43:08Z slyrus: Xach: do you have a link for apis (nice ungoogle-able name)
2014-05-07T15:43:43Z slyrus: splittist: zeromq sounds interesting. have you tried it?
2014-05-07T15:43:43Z Xach: slyrus: tsk. it was on planet lisp last week!
2014-05-07T15:43:48Z Xach: https://github.com/mikelevins/apis
2014-05-07T15:43:56Z slyrus: indeed. thanks.
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2014-05-07T15:51:10Z slyrus wonders if cl-zmq works with ABCL
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2014-05-07T15:52:10Z slyrus: I've come to the realization that I have some tasks that I pretty much need to do in ABCL and some that I pretty much can't do in ABCL :( would be nice to have a single process be able to control both sets of tasks
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2014-05-07T15:53:04Z Xach: What sorts of things are unsuitable in ABCL?
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2014-05-07T15:53:49Z loke_: Xach: anything requiring libraries that won't load? (iolib, I think)
2014-05-07T15:53:59Z slyrus: well, anything that requires cl+ssl (e.g. drakma https requests) are unbearably slow
2014-05-07T15:54:14Z slyrus: cl-bibtex isn't ported to ABCL yet
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2014-05-07T15:54:35Z loke_: I've been thinking of building a wrapper around the Java SSL libraries
2014-05-07T15:55:27Z JuanDaugherty: to use with list
2014-05-07T15:55:30Z JuanDaugherty: p
2014-05-07T15:56:11Z slyrus: xach: I suppose many of my problems with ABCL are fixable, but they would (and have) required to much engineering work/distraction
2014-05-07T15:56:27Z JuanDaugherty: o
2014-05-07T15:57:37Z slyrus: unfortunately I have this big ol' java library that I need to use at the moment. I've gone partway down the path of trying to write my own lisp library(ies) for the same type of stuff, but, again, that's far more engineering work than I have time for
2014-05-07T15:58:42Z slyrus: although in an ideal world I'd go back and forth easily between my lisp stuff and the java stuff. ABCL has gotten better in that regard for me of late, but I'm still faced with some things that I'd rather be doing in SBCL than ABCL.
2014-05-07T15:59:33Z Xach: gotcha
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2014-05-07T16:04:29Z drmeister: slyrus: I'm dealing with similar issues between Common Lisp and C++.
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2014-05-07T16:05:19Z drmeister: Interoperation between Common Lisp and other languages is tough.
2014-05-07T16:05:44Z slyrus: true, but ABCL does a reasonable job with java, so now I just need lisp interop with lisp :)
2014-05-07T16:06:45Z pjb: drmeister: compiling and loading are semantic operations in Common Lisp.  They are unrelated to actual transformation of sexp into byte code or native binary code.
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2014-05-07T16:07:09Z pjb: drmeister: the consequence of compile-file is that (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) …) forms are evalauted.
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2014-05-07T16:07:20Z drmeister: I've opened a socket and sent S-expressions back and forth - that wasn't too bad.
2014-05-07T16:07:24Z pjb: drmeister: the consequence of load'ing a .fas  is that (eval-when (:load-toplevel) …) forms are evalauted.
2014-05-07T16:07:32Z pjb: drmeister: the consequence of load'ing a .lisp  is that (eval-when (:execute) …) forms are evalauted.
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2014-05-07T16:08:04Z pjb: In all case, there may or may not be actual compilation.
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2014-05-07T16:08:52Z drmeister: pjb: I see - thanks.  So what does Python give up that they can essentially compile-file when you load source?
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2014-05-07T16:09:40Z pjb: drmeister: notice the fourth paragraph in clhs load.  It means that you may obtain different result from loading a source file with implicit compilation, than from compile-file a source and loading the .fas file.
2014-05-07T16:09:43Z drmeister: I appreciate that CL gives very fine control when things are evaluated.
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2014-05-07T16:10:18Z pjb: (By side effect of intermixing compilation and evaluation of successive forms, vs. compiling everything and evaluating everything.
2014-05-07T16:10:25Z pjb: )
2014-05-07T16:11:56Z drmeister: I'll have to think on this more.
2014-05-07T16:12:09Z pjb: I also thing that it definitely excludes the implicit with-compilation-unit you get with compile-file, when loading it.
2014-05-07T16:12:21Z pjb: cf with-compilation-unit.
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2014-05-07T16:21:58Z pjb: drmeister: I can tell about python, but in CL this is specified that way to give some freedom to implementers, and to ensure the semantics of compilation and evaluation.
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2014-05-07T16:22:47Z pjb: drmeister: notice for example, that with-compilation-unit defers some compilation side effects to the end.  (Remember that compile-file is a compilation unit, unless you embed it in another with with-compilation-unit).
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2014-05-07T16:25:35Z drmeister: It seems to me that the value of with-compilation-unit is in doing whole program optimization (inlining) across multiple source files compiled within the same W-C-U. Does that sound right?
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2014-05-07T16:27:42Z drmeister: All of the pain the Clang/GCC people are going through to implement Link-Time-Optimization seems to me can be done away with using with-compilation-unit
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2014-05-07T16:46:08Z drmeister: I ran into a problem over the last couple of days incorporating the Memory Pool System automatic-mostly-copying garbage collector within my Common Lisp.
2014-05-07T16:46:41Z drmeister: In several places in the code I used C++ standard containers std::vector std::map std::set etc.
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2014-05-07T16:47:09Z drmeister: The MPS needs all pointers to GC'd objects to be within the MPS managed memory.
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2014-05-07T16:47:34Z drmeister: The C++ standard containers store their contents on the heap, outside of MPS managed memory.
2014-05-07T16:48:02Z drmeister: So the C++ standard containers aren't compatible with MPS.
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2014-05-07T16:50:15Z drmeister: I tried hacking the C++ std::vector to make it compatible but it was a mess.  The template program is complex and the std::vector is implemented in two pieces.  The std::vector stores three pointers to the begin() of the data, the end() of the data and the end of the allocated memory (capacity). These are on the heap or the stack depending on how you use std::vector.   Then the data is stored on the heap elsewhere.
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2014-05-07T16:50:50Z drmeister: You can't scan the data for the heap without the std::vector header.
2014-05-07T16:51:54Z drmeister: So I'm implementing a drop-in replacement for std::vector<T> called GCVector<T> that stores [int _Capacity; int _End; T _Data[0] ... T _Data[_Capacity-1] ] in one contiguous block of memory.
2014-05-07T16:52:44Z drmeister: Then MPS can move this vector around to it's hearts content and the only thing I need to worry about is scanning the T objects and updating the single pointer to the start of the GCVector<T>.
2014-05-07T16:53:24Z drmeister: I'm not leading to any question here - sometimes when I core dump implementation details people offer up helpful thoughts on low level implementation details of Common Lisp.
2014-05-07T16:54:17Z drmeister: One thing the above taught me is to appreciate HASH-TABLE.   It's easy to implement with a moving garbage collector.  All you need is one vector for the buckets and CONSes.
2014-05-07T16:54:40Z drmeister: Something like a B-tree or red/black tree would be challenging to implement to work with a moving garbage collector.
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2014-05-07T16:56:32Z drmeister: So now I'm replacing all std::vector<T> with GCVector<T>  and all associative containers (std::map, std::set std::multimap etc) with HASH-TABLEs
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2014-05-07T16:58:48Z drmeister: I'm dying to throw the switch and see moving garbage collection work.  I've been working on this for months.
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2014-05-07T17:00:57Z drmeister: The GC will manage about 520 C++ classes.   Then I'll say "Suck on that you ##C++ weenies who said it couldn't be done!".
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2014-05-07T17:04:59Z ggole: What about pointers to the inside of the vector's storage? Or does MPS handle that?
2014-05-07T17:05:42Z drmeister: ggole: I wrote a static analyzer in Common Lisp that builds scanners for the pointers inside the vectors storage.
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2014-05-07T17:06:09Z drmeister: I'm monologuing while I wait for it to run.
2014-05-07T17:06:50Z ggole: That knows about the structure of the vector headers, right?
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2014-05-07T17:07:34Z drmeister: ggole: It analyzes the C++ abstract syntax tree generated by the clang front-end.   It's a C++ library that I hooked into my Common Lisp.
2014-05-07T17:08:21Z ggole: I don't see how that solves the interior pointer problem.
2014-05-07T17:08:28Z ggole: (Although maybe you just never generate such pointers.)
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2014-05-07T17:08:57Z drmeister: That didn't quite answer what you asked.   Yes, it will know about the structure of the vector headers.   You write some functions called obj_scan/obj_skip that interface with MPS and they have to know the header structure.
2014-05-07T17:09:50Z drmeister: ggole: It does solve the interior pointer problem because it knows the names of the interior pointer and it generates C++ code that fixes those pointers.
2014-05-07T17:10:07Z ggole: The "interior pointer problem" is how to control what happens when you have a pointer like &vector[5]
2014-05-07T17:10:34Z ggole: When the storage of the vector is relocated, any such pointers should be adjusted.
2014-05-07T17:10:36Z drmeister: Oh - that interior pointer problem.   Sorry :-)
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2014-05-07T17:11:17Z drmeister: ggole: When allocated on the stack interior pointers will pin the vector they point in to.
2014-05-07T17:11:41Z ggole: Ah, your GC allows that?
2014-05-07T17:12:14Z ggole: That would seem to disallow nice things like a copying generational GC, but I guess it is a workable design.
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2014-05-07T17:12:20Z drmeister: I don't  use interior pointers on the heap but if I did the static analyzer would have to be updated to find them and write code to fix them.
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2014-05-07T17:12:31Z ggole: Right.
2014-05-07T17:12:38Z drmeister: ggole: Yeah - the MPS is pretty neat.
2014-05-07T17:13:45Z drmeister: ggole: It is a mostly-copying generational GC.    It copies stuff on the heap.  Pointers on the stack are pinned.  The stack changes and then they become unpinned.
2014-05-07T17:14:21Z drmeister: My next goal will be completely precise garbage collection - but LLVM doesn't support that yet.  Soon, hopefully.
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2014-05-07T17:16:06Z ggole: Mostly copying... interesting.
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2014-05-07T17:16:47Z drmeister: I think SBCL is mostly copying on X86
2014-05-07T17:17:06Z ggole: The usual design for copying generational GC requires that all storage be copied out of the minor heap, leaving it contiguous and empty.
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2014-05-07T17:17:26Z ggole: I guess that's just one possibility though.
2014-05-07T17:18:14Z drmeister: Right - so they have multiple small nurseries and if a nursery contains anything after everything that can be moved out has been moved out then it's left alone until nothing on the stack points to it.
2014-05-07T17:18:26Z drmeister: At least that is how I think it works.
2014-05-07T17:18:36Z ggole: Right, that makes sense.
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2014-05-07T17:19:42Z ggole: The advantage of the usual scheme with one nursery is ridiculously cheap allocation.
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2014-05-07T17:21:40Z ggole: But you can't reliably pin objects.
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2014-05-07T17:24:01Z drmeister: Do you mean you can't be certain that a value on the stack is a pointer to an object in a nursery?  As in ambiguous roots?
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2014-05-07T17:25:41Z ggole: No, it's that the GC has to relocate (some) objects to function correctly.
2014-05-07T17:26:19Z ggole: So storage allocated in the minor heap can't be pinned.
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2014-05-07T17:27:04Z pjb: drmeister: This doesn't seem correct "The C++ standard containers store their contents on the heap, outside of MPS managed memory."  AFAIK, one can provide an allocator to stl containers.
2014-05-07T17:28:24Z pjb: drmeister: indeed, it's the first line of the documention of std::vector:   template < class T, class Alloc = allocator<T> > class vector; // generic template
2014-05-07T17:28:28Z pjb: http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/vector/vector/
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2014-05-07T17:29:00Z drmeister: pjb: Yeah - I spent a couple of hours thinking that.   But then I have to have a back pointer to the vector header so that I know what objects in the data are live and need to be scanned.
2014-05-07T17:29:10Z pjb: So just use std::vector<Thing,MpsAllocator<Thing> > instead of std::vector<Thing>.
2014-05-07T17:29:25Z drmeister: Also - I don't know if the C++ std::vector does things in a GC-aware order.
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2014-05-07T17:30:22Z pjb: I don't know how the allocator class works, but I'd expect that it has hooks to _allocate_ objects and also to _deallocate_ them, so you should be able to inform the garbage collector about that.
2014-05-07T17:30:43Z drmeister: For example vector.push_back(x)...   If the std::vector implementation moves the end pointer up one and then copy constructs the last element then if a GC happens after the end is moved but before the cctor executes then the GC will scan uninitialized memory - BAD.
2014-05-07T17:31:30Z pjb: Why wouldn't your allocate initialize the memory?
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2014-05-07T17:32:40Z pjb: Notice that it's <MpsAllocator<Thing>, so it knows the type of things it should allocate, so it can typetag them, etc.
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2014-05-07T17:32:53Z drmeister: I suppose I could have done that but it would have added more overhead, running placement new and placement destroy on memory that may never contain a live object.
2014-05-07T17:33:17Z pjb: http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/memory/allocator/?kw=allocator
2014-05-07T17:33:28Z pjb: Is it overhead when it's necessary?
2014-05-07T17:34:01Z drmeister: pjb: I know about those - I use Allocators with my GCVector<T,Allocator>
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2014-05-07T17:34:43Z drmeister: I have an MPS allocator and a malloc/free allocator for testing in my reference counted builds of the Common Lisp executable.
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2014-05-07T17:40:54Z drmeister: Oh - yeah - the other thing that filled my blood with ice-water was the thought that maybe somewhere, deep in the template programming of std::vector there is a cast of a pointer to an int and some bitwise operation on that int that would cause MPS to no longer recognize the vector.
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2014-05-07T17:41:54Z ggole: That would make for some enjoyable debugging.
2014-05-07T17:42:00Z drmeister: Those C++ programmers are just C programmers in fancy clothes and C programmers are brutes when it comes to pointers.
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2014-05-07T17:43:20Z drmeister wasn't about to leave his beautiful code in their filthy, brutish hands.
2014-05-07T17:44:36Z jasom is a C programmer by day
2014-05-07T17:45:09Z drmeister: I thought it was better to create a clean implementation of vector.   I tested it pretty thoroughly and my system runs and compiles itself using it - so it's all good.
2014-05-07T17:45:29Z jasom: I'll work in C++ if the customer insists, but they need to pay me *really* well.
2014-05-07T17:46:13Z jasom: drmeister: that seems sane.  You are using the stack to allocate objects?  How does that play with the GC considering llvm has ... limited options for handling GCing objects pointed to from the stack?
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2014-05-07T17:46:51Z jasom: drmeister: nevermind, I just hit page-up and saw you answered that already
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2014-05-07T17:47:46Z drmeister: Once I'm done with this - you can use Common Lisp to clean up your C - you will be better..., stronger..., faster.
2014-05-07T17:48:14Z jasom: drmeister: So you're saying "we have the technology"
2014-05-07T17:48:25Z drmeister: Soon.
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2014-05-07T17:51:31Z drmeister: But yeah, that's what I'm sayin'
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2014-05-07T17:54:34Z drmeister: Alrighty then - I just got the static analyzer running again with support for analyzing the template parameter types of these GCVector thingies and it's off and running, analyzing 166 C++ source files in four forks.  That takes about 2 hours - just in time for my meeting (sigh).
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2014-05-07T17:55:26Z drmeister: C++ static analysis with the clang ASTMatcher library is powerful but ponderous.
2014-05-07T17:55:58Z drmeister: Although at the moment I don't know how much time is being spent in the ASTMatcher library and how much time is in my Common Lisp callbacks.
2014-05-07T17:57:04Z j_king: design q: would you share sockets with threads or use some sort of local communication pattern such as "channels" ? (background: I'm writing a CL kernel backend for iPython and need to open a bunch of zmq sockets to communicate with the frontend and am looking for advice on how best to structure it).
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2014-05-07T18:00:57Z jasom: j_king: zmq sockets aren't thread-safe I thought
2014-05-07T18:01:25Z jasom: j_king: at they weren't in 1.x or 2.x it's on version 4 now so they may have become so at some point
2014-05-07T18:01:46Z jasom: j_king: so if you share them between threads, make sure you put a mutex around the sends
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2014-05-07T18:02:09Z j_king: jasom: looks like that's what lisp-zmq is doing, afaict
2014-05-07T18:02:38Z j_king: https://github.com/galdor/lisp-zmq/blob/master/src/zmq.lisp
2014-05-07T18:02:40Z jasom: oh, that's galdor's library; I've been thinking of switching to that
2014-05-07T18:02:58Z jasom: I'm still on cl-zqm for my stuff.
2014-05-07T18:03:42Z j_king: jasom: I started with that but switched as I needed more router sockets and zmq_device() is nice
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2014-05-07T18:05:46Z jasom: I am heavily biased against sharing anything between threads, but if you have sockets that are already thread-safe to use simultaneously in different threads, that seems fairly benign, so long as it's send-only
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2014-05-07T18:05:55Z jasom: (or receive only, and you get discrete messages)
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2014-05-07T18:31:16Z mood: I believe I have found a bug in cl-protobufs, but the link to the mailing list is dead and I have no idea how else to reach anyone: The documentation mentions that when cl-protobufs creates a package it exports all relevant names from that package, but I just tried and it doesn't export any symbols from that package.
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2014-05-07T18:34:47Z Xach: mood: can you paste a transcript that suggests that's what's happening?
2014-05-07T18:39:37Z mood: I don't know exactly what you mean by "transcript", but http://paste.lisp.org/display/142435
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2014-05-07T18:43:01Z Xach: That is a fine transcript
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2014-05-07T18:57:54Z bobbysmith007: this bug just cost me quite a bit of time: recursive error handling was crashing worker threads in my webserver: https://github.com/AccelerationNet/cl-json/commit/194115007dcd3c75c8ace371a5ac6d6aa1b1a9dc
2014-05-07T18:58:20Z bobbysmith007: All of my error handling around thread operations had been for naught
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2014-05-07T20:01:10Z mood: And another bug in cl-protobufs: If you use :protobuf-file in your system definition, it appends ".proto" to it twice. So (:protobuf-file "Mumble") means it looks for "Mumble.proto.proto"
2014-05-07T20:01:46Z mood: Oh, but if you use the :protobuf-file option in your system definition it DOES export the symbols properly
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2014-05-07T20:14:08Z GuglielmoS: exit
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2014-05-07T20:46:36Z fiveop: Can anyone give me a few pointers, how to develop an application using common qt in a normal emacs/slime and in my case sbcl environment?
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2014-05-07T20:48:09Z fiveop: In particular, is there any documentation telling me in which cases I'm responsible to delete stuff?
2014-05-07T20:49:25Z fiveop: Currently, multiple invocations of my application from the same sbcl process, cause lots of random successes and failures, based on which thread executes the form, that starts the qt application, which makes sense.
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2014-05-07T20:50:46Z pjb: fiveop: I don't know a lot of frameworks that allows several instances of the Application class…
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2014-05-07T20:51:10Z pjb: fiveop: Use M-x slime RET y RET to create other processes!
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2014-05-07T20:56:29Z fiveop: pjb: I don't want several instances. I want to clear everything up, when my 'main' function returns. (Like a process in the process I guess. I don't want to load the whole system everytime I want to start the app. I could as well use c++ and its change/compile/run cycle in that case :))
2014-05-07T20:57:12Z pjb: Oh! I see.  Yes, some cleanup would be needed.
2014-05-07T20:58:11Z pjb: I guess you would have to check the all the C++ destructors, and ensure that C++ objects are destructed when exiting from main.
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2014-05-07T21:01:44Z fiveop: So, memory management :)
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2014-05-07T21:02:27Z pjb: Well, that's not exactly the problem.  But in C++ with RIAS, they conflate memory and functionality.
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2014-05-07T21:40:04Z jasom: pjb: I'm not familiar with RIAS?  Do you mean RAII?
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2014-05-07T23:37:25Z leo2007: In "If the backquote syntax is nested, the innermost backquoted form should be expanded first. This means that if several commas occur in a row, the leftmost one belongs to the innermost backquote.", why is the leftmost backquote the innermost? my intuition seems to say otherwise.
2014-05-07T23:37:52Z Bicyclidine: the leftmost comma, it says, not the leftmost backquote
2014-05-07T23:38:10Z leo2007: indeed, my bad.
2014-05-07T23:39:37Z quazimodo: is there a portable way to find out the real directory name that a file resides in? (not the directory that it was executed out of)
2014-05-07T23:39:37Z minion: quazimodo, memo from pjb: of course!  There's even: (make-pathname :directory '(:relative "subdir" "subsubdir")).
2014-05-07T23:40:21Z pjb: leo2007: because ` and , behave like parentheses.
2014-05-07T23:40:23Z quazimodo: pjb: oh, cooly :)
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2014-05-07T23:42:02Z pjb: quazimodo: of course, pathname syntaxes also support it. In logical pathnames: #P";RELATIVE;SUBDIR;FILE.TYPE"  In physical pathnames, it depends on the system. On unix: #P"relative/subdir/file.type".
2014-05-07T23:42:32Z jasom: friends don't let friends use logical pathnames
2014-05-07T23:43:15Z pjb: jasom: on the contrary.
2014-05-07T23:43:31Z leo2007: In ``(a ,,(+ 1 2) ,(+ 3 4)), is the second backquote the innermost and should be expanded first?
2014-05-07T23:43:32Z pjb: I always use logical pathnames.  It's physical pathnames that are bitches, since they're underspecified.
2014-05-07T23:43:51Z pjb: leo2007: yes.
2014-05-07T23:43:51Z quazimodo: I'm using cl-fad to try to avoid problems pjb
2014-05-07T23:44:26Z dim: what's about make-pathname :back syntax?
2014-05-07T23:44:48Z Bicyclidine: (list 'list ''a 3 (list '+ 3 4)), i think. nested backquotes are harrowing to me
2014-05-07T23:44:52Z pjb: Like iterate, I've not reached yet a point where I had to switch to cl-fad to write portable and conforming code.  The point is that where there are problems with pathnames, it's the fault of defective implementations!
2014-05-07T23:45:05Z dim: pjb: how do you typically map physical to logical pathnames?
2014-05-07T23:45:14Z pjb: Instead of papering over with a library like cl-fad, we should push implementers to correct their implementation.
2014-05-07T23:45:21Z pjb: dim: you don't! :-)
2014-05-07T23:45:29Z pjb: It's a one way transformation.
2014-05-07T23:45:30Z jasom: I do'nt use logical pathnames since they are over-specified
2014-05-07T23:45:35Z dim: how do you get to be happy using logical pathnames then?
2014-05-07T23:45:38Z pjb: That's why you should always stay with logical pathnames.
2014-05-07T23:45:39Z dim: I'm missing something
2014-05-07T23:45:43Z leo2007: Bicyclidine: that remove all of the backquotes. I need to understand when the first backquote is removed
2014-05-07T23:45:53Z pjb: dim: I don't try to process any random unix pathname.
2014-05-07T23:46:02Z Bicyclidine: leo2007: i meant, i think that code is equivalent to the backquote code.
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2014-05-07T23:46:03Z dim: oh, I *have* to
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2014-05-07T23:46:32Z pjb: Eg. if an implementation translates logical pathnames (which must be uppercase), into uppercase physical pathnames, then I only access uppercase physical pathnames.
2014-05-07T23:46:35Z dim: on pgloader command files my users are using unix (soon enough *and* windows) specific namestrings
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2014-05-07T23:46:53Z pjb: dim: right if you have to process existing file systems, better use iolib or some posix API.
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2014-05-07T23:47:12Z dim: ok then, what I'm doing already
2014-05-07T23:47:18Z pjb: Or physical pathnames with an implementation that is not broken.
2014-05-07T23:47:22Z dim: iolib is out in cases because of libfixposix dependencies
2014-05-07T23:47:27Z dim: so uiop
2014-05-07T23:47:35Z dim: but then I think I need something above it
2014-05-07T23:47:58Z dim: basedir, dirname, etc are too complex otherwize
2014-05-07T23:48:15Z pjb: I'm not saying that cl-fad is useless, on the contrary.  But I didn't have to use it so far.
2014-05-07T23:48:16Z quazimodo: :(
2014-05-07T23:48:16Z dim: like take a pathname and move the filename/type to the directory of another pathname
2014-05-07T23:49:08Z quazimodo: i can't find any single way to find the pathname to a file that was loaded (its real pathname, not its symlink path, and not the path of the place CL image was loaded)
2014-05-07T23:49:21Z dim: probe-file
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2014-05-07T23:49:51Z jasom: dim: I do'nt think probe-file is guaranteed to resolve symlinks, right?
2014-05-07T23:50:04Z dim: that's not my reading of it
2014-05-07T23:50:07Z dim: truename
2014-05-07T23:50:14Z Bicyclidine: "The truename of a file may differ from other filenames for the file because of symbolic links, version numbers, logical device translations in the file system, logical pathname translations within Common Lisp, or other artifacts of the file system. "
2014-05-07T23:50:17Z Bicyclidine: i guess.
2014-05-07T23:50:21Z dim:  -- Function: probe-file pathspec → truename
2014-05-07T23:50:56Z jasom: I stand corrected
2014-05-07T23:51:08Z quazimodo: dim: what if i have my awesome-program.lisp (as a shell script) in /home/quazi/code/awesome/ and i symlink it to /home/quazi/bin/ , andi want it to (load "awesome-helpers") which is also in /home/quazi/awesome/
2014-05-07T23:51:13Z Bicyclidine: alternately, there is a *load-truename* variable.
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2014-05-07T23:51:40Z Bicyclidine: /home/quazi/code/awesome/, i hope you mean
2014-05-07T23:51:45Z dim: quazimodo: I would say don't do that, use buildapp instead
2014-05-07T23:51:48Z quazimodo: yes, sory
2014-05-07T23:52:34Z quazimodo: rly :/
2014-05-07T23:53:44Z quazimodo: <- sad
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2014-05-07T23:57:34Z quazimodo: I shouldn't really be doing (load "./sbclrc") in my asdf system, should I?
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2014-05-08T00:00:40Z zRecursive: quazimodo: without using "--no-userinit", sbcl will load ~/.sbclrc automatically
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2014-05-08T00:03:35Z quazimodo: zRecursive: so what happens if I create an executable lisp image, will it still load that?
2014-05-08T00:05:24Z zRecursive: do you use #'sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die ?
2014-05-08T00:05:36Z quazimodo: yes
2014-05-08T00:05:48Z quazimodo: maybe I should use buildapp (never used it)
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2014-05-08T00:06:19Z pjb: quazimodo: when creating an image, I explicitely run my implementation with the option not to load user configuration files.
2014-05-08T00:06:44Z pjb: Of course, that means that I have to start my image creation scripts by (load #P"~/quicklisp/setup.lisp") :-)
2014-05-08T00:07:08Z zRecursive: yeah, clisp #'ext:saveinitmem has option :norc
2014-05-08T00:07:12Z Bicyclidine: quazimodo: if you're using an asdf system and multiple source files it might be time to move beyond shell scripts, definitely
2014-05-08T00:07:30Z quazimodo: yeah i guess it is. So i just have to figure out the smart way to do it :)
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2014-05-08T00:08:12Z pjb: What shell script?
2014-05-08T00:08:40Z zRecursive: I am not sure if #'sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die has corresponding option ?
2014-05-08T00:09:08Z quazimodo: pjb: i started this project as a single file shell script, then split it into two files and wanted to keep them in their own dir in ~/Code/ and create a symlink to ~/Code/awesome/awesome.lisp in ~/bin/awesome
2014-05-08T00:10:17Z quazimodo: but that made it hard to load the other files since (load "awesome-helpers") tries to load it from the dir that the image was loaded in
2014-05-08T00:10:49Z zRecursive: quazimodo: you need to use ASDF
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2014-05-08T00:11:20Z quazimodo: zRecursive: yeah I'm reading the docs now
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2014-05-08T00:19:05Z quazimodo: once I declare that a file depends on some packages in the .asd do I have to then ql:quickload 'some package' ?
2014-05-08T00:19:15Z quazimodo: or does quicklisp take care of that
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2014-05-08T00:22:23Z pjb: quazimodo: your system should list the systems it depends on.
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2014-05-08T00:23:18Z quazimodo: cool
2014-05-08T00:23:25Z pjb: (defsystem … :depends-on (:other-system …) :components ((:file … :depends-on ("other-file" …))…))
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2014-05-08T00:27:13Z quazimodo: pjb: :)
2014-05-08T00:27:57Z quazimodo: but it looks like i need to (in-package :awesome) in each file
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2014-05-08T01:27:00Z interlocutor: http://arstechnica.com/science/2014/05/scientific-computings-future-can-any-coding-language-top-a-1950s-behemoth/
2014-05-08T01:27:03Z interlocutor: lisp has a posse
2014-05-08T01:27:23Z interlocutor: together we shall defeat the imposters
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2014-05-08T01:34:31Z jasom: zRecursive: sb-ext:s-l-a-d lets you tell it to use the same initialization options, so you launch with --no-userinit and tell it to use the same options
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2014-05-08T01:56:51Z zRecursive: jasom: nice to know it
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2014-05-08T04:54:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-05-08T05:05:12Z pillton: Good morning beach.
2014-05-08T05:07:59Z beach: pillton: When I lived 1 year in Auckland, I noticed that within a radius of 2 hours flight, there were around 5 Lispers, whereas in Europe there are 500.
2014-05-08T05:08:26Z Zhivago: Either europe has faster planes or a higher population density ...
2014-05-08T05:09:39Z zRecursive: China has the largest population density  :)
2014-05-08T05:09:51Z pillton: beach: I am working on it.
2014-05-08T05:10:01Z beach: pillton: Good!
2014-05-08T05:10:21Z beach: zRecursive: I seriously doubt that.
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2014-05-08T05:10:48Z zRecursive: beach: doubt what?  fewer lisper in China ?
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2014-05-08T05:11:02Z beach: "China has the largest population density"
2014-05-08T05:11:10Z pillton: beach: I gave a talk yesterday about a library I wrote. Not a peep from anyone about my use of lisp.
2014-05-08T05:11:23Z beach: pillton: What was the target audience?
2014-05-08T05:11:43Z pillton: beach: Computer vision and robotics researchers.
2014-05-08T05:11:49Z beach: Nice!
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2014-05-08T05:14:00Z zRecursive: beach: estimated as (13 * 10^8) / (960000)
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2014-05-08T05:22:27Z beach: zRecursive: Off topic, I know, but Wikipedia says: 144/km² (83rd)
2014-05-08T05:23:28Z beach: pillton: What library is it?
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2014-05-08T05:25:39Z pillton: It is a library for optimising convex functions.
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2014-05-08T05:26:28Z beach: Optimize as in finding extreme points?
2014-05-08T05:26:56Z pillton: Optimize as in finding the global minimum of a function.
2014-05-08T05:27:07Z beach: Right.  Got it.
2014-05-08T05:27:24Z pillton: The library automatically generates the boring bits given a specification.
2014-05-08T05:27:42Z pillton: It saves me about 1.5 days work per function.
2014-05-08T05:27:55Z beach: Wow.  Very nice!
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2014-05-08T05:55:52Z notori0us: anyone compiled sbcl successfully on a raspberry pi?
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2014-05-08T06:10:42Z H4ns: notori0us: to my knowledge, there is no release yet.  try asking in #sbcl.
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2014-05-08T06:11:20Z notori0us: H4ns: ah, yes thank you
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2014-05-08T14:12:55Z moore: hey beach!
2014-05-08T14:13:20Z oleo: morning
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2014-05-08T14:16:19Z beach: Hello moore.
2014-05-08T14:16:28Z beach: pjb: OK, thanks.
2014-05-08T14:16:40Z oleo: hello beach
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2014-05-08T14:16:50Z oleo: how is your project going on ?
2014-05-08T14:17:01Z beach: oleo: Which one? :)
2014-05-08T14:17:13Z oleo: the clim related one!
2014-05-08T14:18:32Z beach: oleo: Oh.  Not working on it right now.
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2014-05-08T14:18:45Z beach: But moore is about to write an OpenGL backend for it.
2014-05-08T14:18:59Z moore: Some kind of backend.
2014-05-08T14:19:25Z moore: It would help if I could get cl-glfw3 working...
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2014-05-08T14:20:06Z oleo: allright
2014-05-08T14:20:19Z moore: Also, I've been talking about writing an OpenGL backend for CLIM for more than 10 years, so one had best be patient :) I think it's a more viable proposition with CLIMatis.
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2014-05-08T14:21:10Z beach: moore: What problem does cl-glfw3 solve?
2014-05-08T14:21:16Z oleo: well if it's X based .......
2014-05-08T14:21:28Z oleo: unless you have an X without opengl .......
2014-05-08T14:21:36Z oleo: and that makes it slow anyway.....
2014-05-08T14:22:12Z moore: beach: Portable creation of OpenGL drawables like windows, and a good model for portably dealing with events.
2014-05-08T14:22:29Z oleo: when you say gl do you speak about pure sw rendering or mixed ?
2014-05-08T14:22:40Z beach: moore: I see.
2014-05-08T14:23:08Z beach: moore: In what way is cl-glfw3 not working?
2014-05-08T14:23:25Z moore: oleo: Not pure sw by any means. Though I think a lot will be done in sw compositing for a while.
2014-05-08T14:23:37Z moore: beach: I get an immediate error when trying the example.
2014-05-08T14:23:53Z beach: Not good.
2014-05-08T14:24:20Z moore: beach: This is from quicklisp, so I may need to get serious and dive into cl-glfw3 to see what's going on. I've forgotten all I ever knew about debugging lisp images with gdb :)
2014-05-08T14:24:31Z moore used to know a lot about that.
2014-05-08T14:25:06Z beach: Sounds like something I would rather not have to know if I can avoid it.
2014-05-08T14:26:14Z beach: ... but maybe it's a marketable skill.
2014-05-08T14:26:52Z moore: beach: Some of the SBCL implementers may have managed to market that, yes.
2014-05-08T14:27:18Z moore: beach: The basic problem is that lisps use traps for various purposes, which confuses gdb.
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2014-05-08T14:28:13Z beach: I see.  Still, GDB is pretty good even with assembly code.
2014-05-08T14:28:21Z moore: beach: Oh yes!
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2014-05-08T14:29:26Z moore: I don't think there is a (free) alternative on Linux.
2014-05-08T14:29:53Z beach: How so?
2014-05-08T14:30:16Z beach: I was thinking of trying NetBSD some time.
2014-05-08T14:30:28Z beach: I am getting more and more disgusted with Ubuntu.
2014-05-08T14:30:42Z beach: I realize of course that I could pick a different distribution.
2014-05-08T14:31:14Z moore: Because I don't know of one? :) Even on BSD I haven't used any other debugger on Unix than gdb since ~1991, except for a bit of TotalView on Tru64.
2014-05-08T14:31:46Z moore: I used to run FreeBSD which I liked very much.
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2014-05-08T14:32:09Z beach: moore: Yes, I remember the miserable pre-GDB situation around 1983 or so.  I was spoiled by Multics and couldn't believe what Unix people put up with.
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2014-05-08T14:33:09Z moore: God, dbx, what a piece of shit.
2014-05-08T14:33:12Z pjb: beach: well, one advantage of *BSD  is that they're emulated by Darwin :-)
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2014-05-08T14:33:32Z H4ns: moore: hey, compared to adb and sdb, dbx was gold
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2014-05-08T14:33:34Z pjb: beach: which would suggest running Darwin (it's a free OS one can use stand alone).
2014-05-08T14:34:08Z moore: H4ns: heh, true, though adb had the advantage that you could run any file through it and get a reasonable disassembly ;)
2014-05-08T14:34:22Z H4ns: omg
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2014-05-08T14:34:36Z moore: Useful for lisp compiler hacking.
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2014-05-08T14:34:55Z Xach: I find myself wanting a SLIME repl command that replaces use of *, **, *** in forms with the actual previous forms.
2014-05-08T14:35:13Z beach: pjb: What would Darwin buy me over NetBSD?
2014-05-08T14:35:27Z moore: beach: Slick, expensive hardware :)
2014-05-08T14:35:45Z beach: moore: :)
2014-05-08T14:35:54Z moore: Although Isaac will come over and build you a Hackintosh :)
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2014-05-08T14:37:22Z pjb: beach: more compatibility with MacOSX ;-) http://www.puredarwin.org
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2014-05-08T14:38:17Z beach: I think I'll pass for now.
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2014-05-08T14:39:17Z beach: moore: Somehow I must have given you the impression that I was not interested in ACCEPT for CLIM3/CLIMatis.
2014-05-08T14:41:03Z moore: beach: No, that's not what I thought.
2014-05-08T14:41:17Z beach: Oh, good.
2014-05-08T14:41:26Z drewc1: Xach: sorry, just woke up and yours was the first I saw ... so getting in to 'work mode' means that : CL-USER> (eval `((lambda (x) (1+ x)) ,+))
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2014-05-08T14:42:04Z Xach: drewc1: That does not help me much.
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2014-05-08T14:42:08Z Xach: Or at all.
2014-05-08T14:42:24Z Xach: Are you getting Bourguignon Syndrome?
2014-05-08T14:42:34Z drewc1: hence my apology first!
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2014-05-08T14:43:37Z Xach: What happens to me fairly often is I start probing around with function calls, and then start picking apart results in *, and then 50 interactions later I want to re-try some entry from history, but it critically relies on *, **, or *** for context to work.
2014-05-08T14:44:52Z moore: The question is more along the lines of: "Does ACCEPT need to block in READ, with lots of magic to throw the clicked-on or translated presentations?
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2014-05-08T14:45:30Z Krystof: Xach: maybe you could hack * to insert the most recent presentation when it's preceded by a space (and subsequent hits of * to replace it with the previous one)
2014-05-08T14:45:35Z drewc: xach : I quite literally have a (defparameter % *) in my history because I have done so as well and hence try to avoid using * in forms
2014-05-08T14:45:45Z splittist: Xach: so you end up with (list * (caddr **) (frobnable ***)), but relative to a '*' of long ago? Or what Krystof said.
2014-05-08T14:46:02Z beach: moore: I guess it depends on what you mean by "block". :)
2014-05-08T14:46:08Z splittist grumbles that Krystof made miss his train Wednesday...
2014-05-08T14:46:12Z Krystof: sorry
2014-05-08T14:46:20Z splittist: s/e m/e him m/
2014-05-08T14:46:26Z Krystof: if it's any consolation, I regretted our late-night excapade all of yesterday too :)
2014-05-08T14:46:33Z Krystof: though I didn't miss my train
2014-05-08T14:46:36Z beach: moore: I mean, the event loop is still running, so as long as clicking is done in the event loop, it should still work.
2014-05-08T14:46:38Z Xach: splittist: yes.
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2014-05-08T14:47:37Z splittist: Krystof: I'm not really sure you were a but-for cause. On the other hand, I did get to spend 3 hours at Gare de Lyon while FO picketed Fauchon and Paul...
2014-05-08T14:47:40Z Xach: And I often want the form re-evaluated, not the actual value of * at the time.
2014-05-08T14:47:48Z ggole: The code that commits repl entries to history could do the * rewriting
2014-05-08T14:47:52Z moore: beach: Or can we say that ACCEPT can return lisp objects from somewhere, like a dialog form, without really going through the implementation's reader.
2014-05-08T14:48:29Z splittist: Xach: I don't understand that second bit.
2014-05-08T14:48:43Z beach: moore: Isn't that what it is currently doing?
2014-05-08T14:48:56Z moore: beach: The event loop is running somewhere, but the CLIM2 model is very much that the application blocks doing ACCEPT, complete with input editing and all hair.
2014-05-08T14:49:27Z beach: moore: What is the negative aspect of blocking like that?
2014-05-08T14:49:31Z Xach: splittist: for stateful forms. like i prefer for (list *) to be resurrected as (list (get-universal-time)) intead of the value of g-u-t at that time in history.
2014-05-08T14:49:53Z beach: moore: Crap, we really need to discuss this over the bottle of wine you suggested, but I am going to be busy all this weekend.
2014-05-08T14:50:09Z Xach: At least, I think I do. I don't know how it would feel in practice.
2014-05-08T14:50:28Z splittist: Xach: I think you might need more modifier keys...
2014-05-08T14:51:19Z splittist: Super-star is a good name for a repl facility, though.
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2014-05-08T14:51:47Z Xach: maybe I could use some other unicode glyph that looks like * but is really a magical symbol macro
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2014-05-08T14:52:06Z moore: beach: The biggest problem I see is that it is awkward to hook up to a toolkit that delivers events through callbacks, without running the app in a separate thread.
2014-05-08T14:52:07Z Xach: maybe one that looks like http://xach.com/misc/lambda.html
2014-05-08T14:52:22Z moore: beach: Which we do now anyway :)
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2014-05-08T14:52:54Z hitecnologys: Aw, is there anything usable for drawing pie charts with vecto out there? I'm too lazy to write my own inefficient one again.
2014-05-08T14:52:56Z moore: beach: But that becomes a problem, because many systems don't react well to doing draw calls in a different thread from the "main" thread.
2014-05-08T14:53:07Z Xach: hitecnologys: adw-charting perhaps
2014-05-08T14:53:35Z moore: gendl: I've been meaning to ask a perhaps naive question: how does the solids kernel in free gendl compare to e.g., Open Cascade?
2014-05-08T14:53:36Z beach: moore: I see.  Well, I wasn't planning to hook up CLIMatis to any other toolkit, which is why I guess I don't see the problem.
2014-05-08T14:53:43Z hitecnologys: Xach: trying to make it work now.
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2014-05-08T14:54:07Z moore: beach: You might want to run it on a Mac sometime.
2014-05-08T14:54:42Z Krystof: same idea then but with * to look up things in history
2014-05-08T14:54:45Z moore: beach: Also, I was enthusiastic about GLFW, but now I see it does everything through callbacks too.
2014-05-08T14:55:02Z moore: beach: Who knows, maybe we need to look at this differently.
2014-05-08T14:55:03Z Krystof: C-* is undefined
2014-05-08T14:55:18Z moore: Krystof: Hello btw :)
2014-05-08T14:55:27Z Krystof: howdy!  It's like it's 2004 again
2014-05-08T14:55:36Z moore: Pretty much.
2014-05-08T14:55:40Z beach: moore: Yes, maybe so.  It would be more efficient if we did this in person I think.
2014-05-08T14:56:18Z moore: beach: Yeah.
2014-05-08T14:57:05Z moore: beach: You know I'm working in Merignac; perhaps lunch someday would be good, without the full bottle of wine :)
2014-05-08T14:57:34Z beach: moore: Sure!
2014-05-08T14:58:01Z splittist: Pick an input form from the repl history. Return evaluates it in the current context. Super-* pops up a history of results, from which you can choose one as the base '*' to be used as the context. Super-+ gives you a history of forms, from which you can similarly choose a base to be interpolated. Complicate at will.
2014-05-08T14:58:11Z beach: moore: Or maybe the weekend of the ascension.
2014-05-08T14:58:43Z moore: beach: Actually, my parents are visiting then, and we are all going to go to Catalonia for the weekend.
2014-05-08T14:58:52Z beach: moore: Nice!
2014-05-08T14:59:07Z moore: Rachel and I scoped out a fabulous hotel a couple of months ago.
2014-05-08T14:59:18Z hitecnologys: Holy crap, I'd better write my own horrible and slow one than use what adw-charting offers.
2014-05-08T14:59:21Z pjb: Xach:  you could easily write a repl that would save the history in a seriel of %iN variables and results in %oN variables, like, eg. in octave, so you would use eg. %i42 %i41 and %i40 instead of * ** and ***, in %i43, and next time you use %i43, it would still have the correct absolute references.
2014-05-08T14:59:25Z beach: moore: French Catalonia or Spanish Catalonia?
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2014-05-08T15:00:17Z moore: beach: Spanish. What is French Catalonia; Perpignan and Collioure?
2014-05-08T15:00:23Z H4ns: hitecnologys: because....?
2014-05-08T15:00:48Z hitecnologys: H4ns: looks horrible. My eyes are in pain now.
2014-05-08T15:00:55Z splittist: pjb: fair enough. The * etc. idea came from/was inspired by MACSYMA.
2014-05-08T15:01:02Z moore: pjb: You could fire up Maxima, and you would even have your Lisp :)
2014-05-08T15:01:05Z H4ns: hitecnologys: "aha"
2014-05-08T15:01:07Z moore: Oh, what splittist said.
2014-05-08T15:01:09Z beach: moore: Don't know the exact definition, but somewhere around the east part of the border.
2014-05-08T15:01:13Z hitecnologys: H4ns: well, they are in a constant pain but now it became worse.
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2014-05-08T15:01:42Z Xach: hitecnologys: Why does it look horrible?
2014-05-08T15:02:20Z pjb: moore: I doubt Xach would like this suggestion.
2014-05-08T15:02:30Z beach should go spend time with his (admittedly small) family, and think about what to cook for dinner.
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2014-05-08T15:02:44Z Xach: I don't mind fabulous hotels.
2014-05-08T15:02:52Z moore: beach: OK, say hi to the family from all of us!
2014-05-08T15:02:59Z beach: will do.
2014-05-08T15:03:07Z moore: Xach: Fabulous hotels and Maxima?
2014-05-08T15:03:21Z hitecnologys: Xach: maybe it's just vecto but I don't like the way it anti-aliases lines, and I also don't like colors and design.
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2014-05-08T15:05:31Z Xach: OK.
2014-05-08T15:05:42Z Xach: Colors and design are pretty important.
2014-05-08T15:07:04Z Xach: hitecnologys: do you have an example of colors and design you like?
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2014-05-08T15:08:30Z hitecnologys: Xach: I like grey and everything related to it. My CL-Twilightandia thing might be the best example of what I prefer but it's down at the moment. Although, I can bring it up if you want to see it for yourself.
2014-05-08T15:08:48Z hitecnologys: I was actually thinking about using TeX but I can't seem to make nor pandoc nor latex4ht nor latex2html work with macros I use for drawing charts.
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2014-05-08T15:09:23Z hitecnologys: And using PDF is no good, it dosn't solve the problem.
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2014-05-08T15:10:02Z Krystof: what problem, specifically?
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2014-05-08T15:10:26Z Xach: hitecnologys: it is hard for me to grasp in prose. do you have pictures you could share?
2014-05-08T15:10:31Z hitecnologys: Krystof: pie charts and charts in general. My own lib I used for drawing the last time is horrible.
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2014-05-08T15:11:16Z hitecnologys: Xach: wait a minute, I'll start the thing.
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2014-05-08T15:13:19Z Krystof: and the standard advice against pie charts doesn't apply?  For charts in general I would use R with a suitable graphics device, which could be tikz
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2014-05-08T15:14:18Z genkinodenki: is there a function to convert a binary vector to decimal?
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2014-05-08T15:14:46Z hitecnologys: Krystof: Yeah, I was thinking about using R too, actually. Maybe I will use it next time but not now as it will take quite a while to learn it for me.
2014-05-08T15:14:46Z Krystof: genkinodenki: no -- maybe you should be using a number to begin with
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2014-05-08T15:15:48Z hitecnologys: And, by the way, what's community opinion on the quality of charts in my JSON encoders/decoders comparison?
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2014-05-08T15:17:29Z genkinodenki: Krystof: I am writing a game engine and I need to check if a terrain tile has other similar tiles adjacent to it, and as there are 8 tiles surrounding the center, I'm using an 8-bit vector to mark each tile as 1 or 0 (having same tile or not).  can you suggest something better?
2014-05-08T15:17:58Z hitecnologys: Xach: warning: content may be inappropriate for certain categories of people. And don't tell me I didn't warn you! http://109.120.41.125:8080/
2014-05-08T15:18:23Z oGMo: genkinodenki: you're marking each tile with information you could get by just checking the relevant tiles?
2014-05-08T15:18:42Z Xach: hitecnologys: How can I tell if I'm in that category?
2014-05-08T15:18:54Z genkinodenki: oGMo: can you elaborate?
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2014-05-08T15:19:32Z oGMo: genkinodenki: why have a bit vector and not just check the actual tiles?
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2014-05-08T15:20:11Z Krystof: why do you need to convert that 8-bit vector to decimal?
2014-05-08T15:20:23Z oGMo: genkinodenki: i could see if you had a bit vector to cache _all_ tiles, once, but from your description you're storing that data redundantly 8x(+)
2014-05-08T15:20:30Z hitecnologys: Xach: not sure. I'm just used to warning everyone that this site may cause permanent brain damage and/or spontaneous hatred towards me.
2014-05-08T15:20:31Z gendl: moore: there is no solids kernel in free gendl.
2014-05-08T15:20:48Z genkinodenki: oGMo: I am checking the tiles, but I need to draw different graphics depending on which of the surrounding tiles are the same, and the first thing I came up with was using an 8-bit vector to hold the true/false value of whether they contain the tile, and use that as an index to another vector containing the different graphics
2014-05-08T15:20:53Z hitecnologys: Xach: it's usually safe for work, though.
2014-05-08T15:20:56Z gendl: only built-in wireframe volumetric primitives
2014-05-08T15:21:04Z hitecnologys: Xach: I think you'll be fine.
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2014-05-08T15:21:18Z oGMo: genkinodenki: that seems like a bad idea, and especially bad if you plan on changing tiles, ever
2014-05-08T15:21:24Z moore: gendl: Oh. I was mistaken... I thought I saw code in there to do fillets and things.
2014-05-08T15:21:37Z oGMo: as every update would require 8 other updates
2014-05-08T15:21:41Z gendl: well, there is a global-filleted-polyline
2014-05-08T15:21:43Z gendl: which has fillets.
2014-05-08T15:22:02Z Krystof: genkinodenki: you could use an 8-bit integer
2014-05-08T15:22:09Z moore: gendl: How about extrude and sweep?
2014-05-08T15:22:12Z gendl: and which can be extruded into a global-filleted-polygon-extrusion
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2014-05-08T15:22:31Z gendl: no sweep primitive currently built-in to core gendl
2014-05-08T15:22:35Z gendl: shall we take this to #gendl?
2014-05-08T15:22:43Z genkinodenki: Krystof: what do you mean?  sorry I'm a horrible noob
2014-05-08T15:23:00Z moore: gendl: Oh sure! didn't realize there was such a channel.
2014-05-08T15:24:15Z Krystof: instead of using an 8-bit vector to store your 8 bits of information and convert the 8 bits into a number for looup, you can use an integer directly
2014-05-08T15:24:18Z Xach: hitecnologys: I'm sure there's nothing on your site that could make me esteem you less.
2014-05-08T15:24:21Z j_king_: genkinodenki: check out marching squares algo
2014-05-08T15:24:34Z genkinodenki: j_king_: will do, cheers
2014-05-08T15:24:57Z genkinodenki: Krystof: how would I go about doing that, though?  I simply can't figure this out
2014-05-08T15:24:57Z Xach: But I don't see any charts.
2014-05-08T15:25:17Z hitecnologys: Xach: there are no charts, I thought you were talking about colors.
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2014-05-08T15:25:44Z hitecnologys: Xach: if you want charts with such colors, then: http://hitecnologys.org/1
2014-05-08T15:26:15Z hitecnologys: Xach: but you've probably already seem them.
2014-05-08T15:26:15Z Krystof: genkinodenki: (let ((result 0)) (dotimes (i 8 result) (when (same-neighbour-p (neighbour i)) (setf (ldb (byte 1 i) result) 1))))
2014-05-08T15:26:29Z Krystof: (though I tend to agree that this is probably not all that good an idea)
2014-05-08T15:26:33Z genkinodenki: oGMo: tbh I didn't think of that, but I guess you're right it's inefficient
2014-05-08T15:26:37Z hitecnologys: Xach: and yes, I don't have examples of pie charts which I would like.
2014-05-08T15:26:53Z hitecnologys: Xach: working on it at the moment.
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2014-05-08T15:28:11Z oGMo: genkinodenki: i'm not sure how you wouldn't be better off checking individual neighboring tiles, but in theory you could have one large bit vector for all tiles .. that way a set/remove at least is only 1 additional update
2014-05-08T15:29:00Z hitecnologys: Xach: however, charts from this package do look nice: http://ftp.sun.ac.za/ftp/CTAN/graphics/pgf/contrib/pgf-pie/pgf-pie-manual.pdf
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2014-05-08T15:29:54Z sellout: hitecnologys: Oh man, please never use any chart like those in that PDF.
2014-05-08T15:30:07Z j_king_: oGMo genkinodenki: http://blog.project-retrograde.com/2013/05/marching-squares/
2014-05-08T15:30:11Z j_king_: :D
2014-05-08T15:30:24Z hitecnologys: sellout: why?
2014-05-08T15:30:41Z Krystof: where's my "1000 reasons pie charts are awful" document when I need it?
2014-05-08T15:30:47Z Krystof: (pgf generally is nice, though)
2014-05-08T15:30:54Z sellout: Krystof: Exactly :D
2014-05-08T15:31:00Z hitecnologys: OK, I get it, no pie charts.
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2014-05-08T15:31:17Z sellout: hitecnologys: It starts with pie charts, and then moves along the axis of “how can we make them harder to read?”
2014-05-08T15:31:42Z hitecnologys: I'll just stick to my old drawing kit then, I've just rewritten it and it does work better now.
2014-05-08T15:31:51Z hitecnologys: sellout: I see.
2014-05-08T15:31:56Z Krystof: http://www.datavis.ca/gallery/evil-pies.php
2014-05-08T15:33:46Z Xach is fond of the idea of pie menus
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2014-05-08T15:35:05Z sellout: Xach: Like this? http://stationstreetpgh.com
2014-05-08T15:35:10Z sellout: :D
2014-05-08T15:35:36Z oGMo: j_king_: yeah, like voxels, but 2D heh
2014-05-08T15:35:58Z genkinodenki: oGMo: aka. pixels? ;D
2014-05-08T15:36:02Z j_king_: oGMo: the algorithm iirc, is n-dimensional
2014-05-08T15:36:02Z Xach: more like http://www.donhopkins.com/drupal/taxonomy_menu/4/49/14/18
2014-05-08T15:36:04Z oGMo: genkinodenki: no, not pixels
2014-05-08T15:36:12Z j_king_: the link focuses on 2d
2014-05-08T15:36:20Z j_king_: but the same can be applied on a 3d mesh as well
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2014-05-08T15:37:01Z genkinodenki: j_king_: I was actually considering splitting the tiles into smaller constituent parts, but figured I'd make a dumb version first and see where it goes.  but this seems better thought out
2014-05-08T15:37:14Z oGMo: j_king_: but, yeah, neat ;)
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2014-05-08T15:38:00Z j_king_: genkinodenki: no problem... sometimes the hardest part is figuring out the name of your problem. ;)
2014-05-08T15:38:28Z genkinodenki: j_king_: true :D
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2014-05-08T15:40:38Z mood: I'm having a bit of a problem with ASDF. In my defsystem I use a component type defined by a dependency, but upon quickloading my system asdf complains it doesn't know the component type.
2014-05-08T15:41:07Z mood: I'd expect it to first load the dependencies, but if I do it myself before loading my system it does work
2014-05-08T15:41:41Z Xach: mood: you might be able to use :defsystem-depends-on
2014-05-08T15:41:57Z Xach: mood: normal :depends-on is for dependencies of the project, not of the system definition.
2014-05-08T15:42:12Z mood: Xach: Thanks, that makes sense
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2014-05-08T15:44:25Z Xach: Of course, since the entire form is read before any of it is evaluated, you can't use prefixed symbols to name component types with that scheme.
2014-05-08T15:44:35Z Xach: I think the manual has some remarks on the topic.
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2014-05-08T16:14:01Z pjb: genkinodenki: you could use dpb and logbitp to set and test directly bits in an integer.
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2014-05-08T16:17:55Z pjb: genkinodenki: But otherwise, I'd have serious doubts about your programming capacity if you can't convert a binary representation into an integer.  This is a single function call! (reduce (let ((2^n 1)) (lambda (value bit) (prog1 (+ value (* 2^n bit)) (setf 2^n (* 2 2^n))))) #*10101 :initial-value 0)
2014-05-08T16:19:13Z moore: pjb:Still supportive as ever, I see :)
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2014-05-08T16:20:52Z pjb: Well, I have an agenda.  You see, I was taught base in primary school, along with modern maths.  I want people to realize they've received crappy education, and to move to improve it!  Since 1968, it only has worsened…
2014-05-08T16:21:50Z moore: pjb: You were in primaire before 1968?
2014-05-08T16:23:21Z pjb: Well, just about.  I certainly played with those little cubes to build 1, 2, 2x2, 2x2x2 etc. and blocks to make sets, unions, intersections etc {triangles, circles, rectangles} x { red, blue, yellow}.
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2014-05-08T16:23:28Z pjb: I was born in 1964.
2014-05-08T16:23:53Z moore: pjb: I did that in the U.S.! 2 years after you.
2014-05-08T16:23:54Z Xach: Happy 70th!
2014-05-08T16:24:01Z pjb: Before 1970, on saturday morning, I was watching on TV lessions of electronics and boolean logic, etc.
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2014-05-08T16:24:20Z pjb: lessons
2014-05-08T16:24:45Z pjb: Nowadays, on saturday morning, they get spongebob.
2014-05-08T16:24:58Z moore: Which is brilliant, by the way.
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2014-05-08T16:25:06Z xvzf: Hi, this is quite cryptic for me: (DEFMACRO ITERATE (&REST L) `(SLOOP::SLOOP ,@ L)) what should I read to understand it? As you can guess I'm a newbie in lisp.
2014-05-08T16:25:25Z pjb: moore: this is not with spongebob that you will create a space-age civilization.
2014-05-08T16:25:31Z Xach: xvzf: Practical Common Lisp is a good book on the topi
2014-05-08T16:25:34Z Xach: topic, rather
2014-05-08T16:25:42Z moore: pjb:I beg to differ :)
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2014-05-08T16:32:46Z moore: Has anyone compared the performance of GC finalization in the various implementations?
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2014-05-08T16:35:48Z genkinodenki: pjb: I didn't have a problem with converting binary to decimal myself, just asking if there was a single function (not entirely unreasonable assumption IMO) so I could avoid cluttering my already incomprehensible code more :)  and I ended up benefiting in unexpected ways, as is often the case ;)  thanks though
2014-05-08T16:36:08Z whartung: seems like that actual finalization logic (i.e. the code called to finalize an object) would be the dominant factor in that moore
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2014-05-08T16:40:06Z moore: whartung: I would think it depends a lot on how the system keeps track of objects that will need to be finalized. E.g., a linear list could get expensive.
2014-05-08T16:40:20Z moore: But I could be talking out my ass.
2014-05-08T16:40:42Z stassats: a list with weak pointers
2014-05-08T16:40:47Z whartung: well, it could either queue the list up, or it could finalize them as it was running through in the collecting process.
2014-05-08T16:41:12Z whartung: even if they're stored in a linear list, the cost is appending to the list (and knowing Lisp, it's likely a linked list, which is "cheap" to extend)
2014-05-08T16:41:24Z whartung: then it's simply a matter of iterating over the list and calling the finalize logic.
2014-05-08T16:41:40Z whartung: and, I too, could be talking out my ass.
2014-05-08T16:41:51Z whartung: Not like I know, Ijus tmake this stuff up.
2014-05-08T16:41:51Z moore: whartung: No, it'st the scanning I'm worried about, since GC normally doesn't even have to look at objects that are garbage.
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2014-05-08T16:42:01Z moore: At least for certain common algorithms.
2014-05-08T16:42:07Z whartung: oic
2014-05-08T16:42:15Z whartung: yea, that hadn't occurred to me
2014-05-08T16:42:30Z whartung: it may well capture the need to finalize them at allocation time
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2014-05-08T16:43:06Z whartung: but I see you your point given a generic copying collector
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2014-05-08T16:46:41Z moore: Maybe one of those non-problems in practice, though I see in the C# world they give some thought to it.
2014-05-08T16:46:43Z moore: bbl
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2014-05-08T17:22:17Z mega1: moore: one of the clisp devs compared weak ref implementations several years ago
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2014-05-08T17:24:00Z mega1: http://www.haible.de/bruno/papers/cs/weak/WeakDatastructures-writeup.html
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2014-05-08T17:33:44Z rk[1]: anyone here do any FPGA work? i am soon to be an owner of one and was curious if there are any good lisp-like hdl that anyone uses.
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2014-05-08T17:48:49Z bobbysmith007: rk[1]: perhaps this thread might help (though you have probably seen it) https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/25YCV2kLk4Q
2014-05-08T17:50:09Z moore: megal:Thanks.
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2014-05-08T18:30:16Z Vivitron: Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/134707 is something I sometimes use instead of *. It's mostly cut and paste from slime's repl history search but tweaked to splice the search at the point
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2014-05-08T18:33:07Z stassats: it says "swank has" and then says "slime...", which means that it's not from swank
2014-05-08T18:34:11Z rk[1]: bobbysmith007: thanks. i have seen the thread before but only read in to the first handful of post. still it leaves me with the question as *if* anyone has done this for any FPGAs yet.
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2014-05-08T18:36:41Z Bicyclidine: rk[1]: there's a lot of vendor lock-in and opaque formats around FPGA programming
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2014-05-08T18:38:43Z rk[1]: Bicyclidine: aye, i was afraid of that :/
2014-05-08T18:39:04Z rk[1]: we need to (free) them.
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2014-05-08T18:56:00Z BitPuffin: Hmm, I'm thinking maybe I'll learn lisp better if I just write stuff in it rather than reading a full book about it first, what do you guys think?
2014-05-08T18:56:39Z stassats: do both
2014-05-08T18:57:22Z phadthai: I agree with stassats
2014-05-08T18:57:28Z BitPuffin: well I don't mean blindly writing lisp and getting stuck, but more like, trying to write stuff, while glancing at the hyperspec or something
2014-05-08T18:58:06Z stassats: glancing at the hyperspec won't teach you much
2014-05-08T18:58:35Z BitPuffin: yeah, I'm a bit worried that without reading a book at the same time I won't gain like insights on how to use macros to their full potential
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2014-05-08T18:59:14Z oleo: right
2014-05-08T18:59:20Z oleo: first a book helps....
2014-05-08T18:59:20Z dlowe: BitPuffin: don't forget to read lisp code
2014-05-08T18:59:24Z oleo: then small samples....
2014-05-08T18:59:39Z dlowe: you'll learn more from reading lisp code written by experts than nearly any other resource
2014-05-08T18:59:55Z stassats: i wouldn't take oleo's advice on how to learn lisp
2014-05-08T18:59:57Z dlowe: as long as you make sure you really comprehend what you're reading
2014-05-08T19:00:08Z BitPuffin: problem is that the book I'm reading, while I am enjoying it, maybe it would be better with a book that is more straight to the point :P
2014-05-08T19:00:17Z oleo: heh
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2014-05-08T19:00:40Z BitPuffin: dlowe: well what's an exceptionally amazing open source lisp project I can read from then :P
2014-05-08T19:00:55Z dlowe: it doesn't have to be amazing
2014-05-08T19:01:05Z dlowe: but read something that does stuff similar to what you want to do
2014-05-08T19:01:13Z stassats: whatever you choose to do, don't give up
2014-05-08T19:01:15Z dlowe: oh skeptical one.
2014-05-08T19:01:17Z oleo: well some mcclim stuff is.....
2014-05-08T19:01:44Z oleo: otherwise ....there are so many libs you can take a look at.....
2014-05-08T19:01:59Z Xach: uff. paste.lisp.org has been spammed pretty hard.
2014-05-08T19:02:27Z dlowe: Xach: There's a special level of hell for pastebin spammers and wiki vandals
2014-05-08T19:02:35Z BitPuffin: I guess what I'll mainly be using it for is web stuff, like web apps, irc, and also high performance stuff like interfacing with C libraries and so on
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2014-05-08T19:02:56Z BitPuffin: Lisp is probably a good language to get a bit better at AI with :P
2014-05-08T19:03:09Z oleo: lol
2014-05-08T19:03:46Z oleo: font adverts.....
2014-05-08T19:04:44Z stassats: probably a time to add some "delete paste" functionality
2014-05-08T19:05:17Z BitPuffin: I'm also learning emacs, however I hear elisp is not very traditional lispy
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2014-05-08T19:05:36Z stassats: if you squint your eyes, you can pretend it is
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2014-05-08T19:06:21Z stassats: and i would guess the oldish elisp is more _traditional_, without lexical bindings
2014-05-08T19:07:08Z BitPuffin: well mainly because it's very state driven
2014-05-08T19:07:31Z BitPuffin: whereas the preferred way is generally making programs as stateless as possible right? Passing functions around etc
2014-05-08T19:08:04Z Xach: No.
2014-05-08T19:08:15Z BitPuffin: or DSLs
2014-05-08T19:08:18Z BitPuffin: I dunno :P
2014-05-08T19:08:36Z stassats: the preferred way is to use the best way suited for the problem
2014-05-08T19:09:07Z BitPuffin: sounds practical enough
2014-05-08T19:09:55Z stassats: and to add "delete paste", i need to add some sort of logging in, nah, another day
2014-05-08T19:10:16Z stassats: the old araneida parts have this, but they are so ugly, i don't want to look at it again
2014-05-08T19:10:35Z phadthai: if only paste posters knew the id to access them (without a public history), how could spamming it be useful
2014-05-08T19:11:56Z phadthai: although a history can be a nice feature admitedly
2014-05-08T19:12:24Z stassats: i don't quite understand your last two messages
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2014-05-08T19:13:06Z phadthai: if the paste history/list was removed, it would be less useful for spammers, as only people knowing the paste ID could see their posts
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2014-05-08T19:13:34Z stassats: why should it be removed just because of some pesky spammers?
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2014-05-08T19:17:32Z pjb: phadthai: paste IDs are sequential on paste.lisp.org.
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2014-05-08T19:17:36Z phadthai: the alternatives would be moderation (time-expensive), automatic filters (error prone), free delete option (allowing vendalism), community flagging (needing registration so annoying for users), letting the spam stay...
2014-05-08T19:17:50Z phadthai: pjb: ok yes they'd then have to also be less predictable
2014-05-08T19:18:55Z phadthai: ah, another one would be registration needed to post, but also annoying for users
2014-05-08T19:19:07Z pjb: and doesn't prevent spammers.
2014-05-08T19:19:17Z phadthai: right, it's just a little more work for them
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2014-05-08T19:19:45Z phadthai: a captcha could also help against automatic posting, but manual spamming would remain easy
2014-05-08T19:20:03Z Xach: there is a captcha, of sorts
2014-05-08T19:20:35Z phadthai: a symbolic captcha :)
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2014-05-08T19:22:28Z stassats: i deleted today's spam
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2014-05-08T19:23:27Z BitPuffin: hm chicken scheme seems quite interesting
2014-05-08T19:23:43Z stassats: and it seems to be have done by hand, because the captcha is really weak, i could crack it in 15 minutes an spam the thing to death
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2014-05-08T19:24:42Z stassats: especially with the title "What do you get when you multiply 42 by 72?", but even the image itself is easily decodable
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2014-05-08T19:25:19Z Xach: stassats: that's not exactly discouraging information because you are pretty good at stuff (e.g. qr codes)
2014-05-08T19:25:30Z stassats: oh no
2014-05-08T19:26:00Z rszeno maybe will be better to be "prove Riemman hypotesis"
2014-05-08T19:27:13Z stassats: and, patches are welcome
2014-05-08T19:27:35Z phadthai: BitPuffin: I agree, I like chicken and ecl for using C (chicken is scheme of course, where #scheme would be more appropriate to discuss further)
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2014-05-08T19:29:03Z BitPuffin: phadthai: ecl?, ah thought that since scheme is a lisp dialect this would be the place to discuss, sorry :D
2014-05-08T19:29:32Z j_king: BitPuffin: a *common* mistake. ;)
2014-05-08T19:29:37Z phadthai: BitPuffin: no problem there, and it's not always obvious that #lisp is for common lisp :)
2014-05-08T19:30:08Z BitPuffin: ah, yeah I thought it was lisp in general but with a focus on common lisp, because it's the "main" lisp :P
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2014-05-08T20:04:46Z jdz: phadthai: topic not obvious?
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2014-05-08T20:16:10Z dim: how to check for a unix namestring being an executable file in SBCL and CCL? (I'm using uiop:parse-unix-namestring for the parsing)
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2014-05-08T20:18:51Z pjb: dim: try to execute it.
2014-05-08T20:18:59Z pjb: Perhaps you want to ask another question.
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2014-05-08T20:19:13Z dim: yeah... but...
2014-05-08T20:19:26Z pjb: dim:  man 2 stat ; man 2 fstat
2014-05-08T20:19:26Z stassats: dim: stat
2014-05-08T20:19:33Z dim: I'm checking a use configuration file, I should only check for the file existing maybe
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2014-05-08T20:20:46Z pjb: For example, if you check the mode bits, and see that it has a x bit (and it resolves to a regular file), then if you try to execute it, it may be that it's a binary for another system, or a script for which the interpreter is not installed.
2014-05-08T20:20:52Z stassats: (sb-posix:stat-mode (sb-posix:stat "/bin/bash"))
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2014-05-08T20:21:20Z pjb: So it's clearly insufficient.
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2014-05-08T20:22:22Z pjb: Better use man 2 access, it will check the mode with respect to the uid/gid of the file and uid/gid of the process.
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2014-05-08T20:23:07Z pjb: And again, given that it's a multiprocess system, between your call of access and that of exec, another process may call chmod and get you.
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2014-05-08T20:23:44Z stassats: (sb-posix:access "/bin/bash" sb-posix:x-ok)
2014-05-08T20:23:53Z stassats: but it will signal an error
2014-05-08T20:24:17Z Xach: Will sb-posix:access convert to a native namestring?
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2014-05-08T20:25:27Z rszeno: patchk can check if is a valid name
2014-05-08T20:26:11Z stassats: Xach: which other kind of namestring could it convert?
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2014-05-08T20:27:17Z Xach: stassats: I can imagine sb-posix taking strings as-is without conversion.
2014-05-08T20:27:32Z Xach: Except to the octets needed to pass to the call.
2014-05-08T20:27:35Z stassats: that wouldn't be very useful, it does convert
2014-05-08T20:28:02Z Xach: it would work most of the time, except when it didn't.
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2014-05-08T20:35:49Z dim: well I think my idea to control that the user did setup an executable file is doomed, better fail when trying to use it
2014-05-08T20:36:06Z dim: what happens if he wants to first start my software then apt-get install run-time dependencies?
2014-05-08T20:36:20Z stassats: a restart, naturally
2014-05-08T20:36:40Z stassats: the one that quicklisp doesn't have
2014-05-08T20:36:54Z dim: I'm just removing the check now
2014-05-08T20:37:55Z Xach: Isn't it the restart cffi does have?
2014-05-08T20:38:28Z stassats: right
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2014-05-08T21:11:24Z nicdev: I have often felt that programming is an art form,
2014-05-08T21:11:24Z nicdev:      whose real value can only be appreciated
2014-05-08T21:11:24Z nicdev:      by another versed in the same arcane art;
2014-05-08T21:11:24Z nicdev:      there are lovely gems and brilliant coups
2014-05-08T21:11:27Z nicdev: I have often felt that programming is an art form,
2014-05-08T21:11:30Z nicdev:      whose real value can only be appreciated
2014-05-08T21:11:33Z nicdev:      by another versed in the same arcane art;
2014-05-08T21:11:38Z nicdev:      there are lovely gems and brilliant coups
2014-05-08T21:11:41Z nicdev: I have often felt that programming is an art form,
2014-05-08T21:11:41Z nicdev:      whose real value can only be appreciated
2014-05-08T21:11:44Z nicdev:      by another versed in the same arcane art;
2014-05-08T21:11:47Z nicdev:      there are lovely gems and brilliant coups
2014-05-08T21:11:50Z nicdev:      hidden from human view and admiration, sometimes forever,
2014-05-08T21:11:54Z nicdev:      by the very nature of the process.
2014-05-08T21:11:57Z nicdev:      You can learn a lot about an individual
2014-05-08T21:12:00Z nicdev:      just by reading through his code,
2014-05-08T21:12:03Z nicdev:      even in hexadecimal.
2014-05-08T21:12:08Z nicdev: did not mean to post that
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2014-05-08T21:12:37Z rszeno: nice
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2014-05-08T21:13:46Z nicdev: key mixups and that happened to be on my clipboard. def off topic here
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2014-05-08T21:15:19Z phadthai: lisp poets risking martyr-kick for not using a pastebin :)
2014-05-08T21:15:29Z phadthai: jdz: topic is fine
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2014-05-08T22:58:01Z CrazyWoods: Are there many robot on this channel?
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2014-05-08T22:58:56Z DataLinkDroid: CrazyWoods: How does that make you feel?
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2014-05-08T22:59:43Z p_l: CrazyWoods: afaik no
2014-05-08T22:59:52Z p_l: although who knows about lurkers
2014-05-08T23:00:00Z Shinmera: I only know of three.
2014-05-08T23:00:06Z p_l: ccl-logbot and minion are well known
2014-05-08T23:00:09Z p_l: dunno about rest
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2014-05-08T23:00:30Z p_l meanwhile wonders why AllegroGraph is not pushed more as Lisp success story
2014-05-08T23:00:55Z CrazyWoods: only three?
2014-05-08T23:01:10Z Shinmera: I'm saying I only /know/ of three.
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2014-05-08T23:01:31Z Shinmera: Two of which p_l mentioned, the other being mine.
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2014-05-08T23:01:47Z pjb: CrazyWoods: you could try to engage each of us, and see for yourself if we're robots or not.
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2014-05-08T23:04:06Z CrazyWoods: pjb: :)
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2014-05-08T23:04:30Z CrazyWoods: what would be a good choice for cross platform GUI toolkit
2014-05-08T23:04:42Z pjb: OpenStep
2014-05-08T23:05:01Z pjb: As in GNUstep on MS-Windows and Linux, and Cocoa on MacOSX.
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2014-05-08T23:07:59Z p_l: does GNUstep work in any sensible way on Windows at all?
2014-05-08T23:08:30Z jasom: CrazyWoods: ltk
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2014-05-08T23:09:17Z CrazyWoods: jasom: does it work on linux and window MacOSX
2014-05-08T23:09:28Z pjb: p_lhttp://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/Platform_compatibility
2014-05-08T23:09:30Z jasom: CrazyWoods: with a basic tclkit executable, it's possible to deliver a GUI application on windows with just 2 files (one for the lisp executable, one for the tclkit executable); for linux and osx, you just require tk to be installed
2014-05-08T23:09:31Z pjb: +:
2014-05-08T23:09:34Z jasom: CrazyWoods: yes
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2014-05-08T23:10:45Z CrazyWoods: it seems a good choice using Cocoa on MacOSX
2014-05-08T23:11:41Z pjb: You may also use GNUstep on MacOSX, but it should be source compatible with Cocoa.
2014-05-08T23:12:34Z CrazyWoods: pjb: lisp building?
2014-05-08T23:12:41Z CrazyWoods: lisp binding
2014-05-08T23:13:25Z pjb: Ah, that's another question.  We'd need a universal Objective-C bridge, that would work portably with all Objective-C compilers, and on all (CFFI enabled) implementations.
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2014-05-08T23:13:59Z jasom: pjb: I think you can assume any question in here about a gui toolkit is asking about lisp specifically...
2014-05-08T23:14:29Z pjb: Yeah, sure.  I'm making a plan. You may implement it faster than I will, I won't mind.
2014-05-08T23:14:29Z CrazyWoods: pjb: Are you doing GUI programming, if so which language and toolkit do you use?
2014-05-08T23:14:44Z pillton: CommonQt works nicely on OSX and FreeBSD. I presume it works on Linux.
2014-05-08T23:14:53Z pjb: Well, right now the customer is happy with only MacOSX, so I use ccl and Cocoa.
2014-05-08T23:15:09Z p_l: pillton: Given that CommonQT afaik *started* on Linux... :)
2014-05-08T23:15:27Z p_l: the only problem of CommonQT is getting some non-lisp libraries running
2014-05-08T23:15:47Z jasom: CrazyWoods: I have written gui applications that work on os x, windows, and linux using ltk.  Development in it can be less than simple at times, but it is stable and highly portable.
2014-05-08T23:16:11Z jasom: CrazyWoods: only downside is that there is no way I can think of to get it working on iOS or android.
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2014-05-08T23:17:41Z CrazyWoods: jasom: apportable?
2014-05-08T23:19:44Z CrazyWoods: Are there someone here knowing how to doing mix programming
2014-05-08T23:20:02Z CrazyWoods: using mix language for special project
2014-05-08T23:20:42Z whartung: Mix, as in Knuths thing?
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2014-05-08T23:21:40Z jasom: CrazyWoods: apportable? <-- not sure what you're asking
2014-05-08T23:21:55Z CrazyWoods: whartung: as for a server side web server there may include C/C++ & python stuff
2014-05-08T23:22:08Z whartung: oh
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2014-05-08T23:22:50Z whartung: so you mean embedding python in a C++ web server?
2014-05-08T23:22:53Z jasom: Actually I do have an idea for how to get ltk working on android, but it involves embedding the entire tcl/tk runtime into a lisp memory image.
2014-05-08T23:23:32Z CrazyWoods: jasom: apportable can be use to compile objective-c to android machine code
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2014-05-08T23:24:47Z jasom: CrazyWoods: wouldn't help with ltk
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2014-05-08T23:24:59Z jasom: ltk uses a separate process for the gui and communicates over a socket
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2014-05-08T23:26:13Z jasom: smartphones are still a nascent platform for common lisp anyway though
2014-05-08T23:26:47Z jasom: s/a nascent platform/nascent platforms/
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2014-05-09T01:03:56Z quazimodo: buildapp relies on makefiles to create its config file doesn't it
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2014-05-09T01:04:14Z quazimodo: as in, you configure the buildapp command line args with a make file eh?
2014-05-09T01:06:12Z eudoxia: you can run buildapp from a shell script or whatever
2014-05-09T01:06:20Z eudoxia: pgloader does use a makefile
2014-05-09T01:07:03Z quazimodo: thats cool :)
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2014-05-09T02:03:18Z Xach: buildapp does not rely on makefiles
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2014-05-09T02:29:01Z ltbarcly: is there a way to have asdf build c code that is being wrapped by cffi or sb-alien or something?
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2014-05-09T02:29:57Z slyrus: and... mach exception handling is back on ccl. fun.
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2014-05-09T02:31:08Z slyrus: ltbarcly: I wrote stuff to automagically compile libraries and parse the C code with gcc-xml and make sb-alien declarations for everything in the .h files. pretty much worked. then I abandoned it.
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2014-05-09T02:49:09Z quazimodo: is there a table of chars somewhere?
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2014-05-09T02:49:32Z quazimodo: eg Control S might map to #\Dc3
2014-05-09T02:51:00Z quazimodo: oh i think i found
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2014-05-09T02:55:31Z quazimodo: nope. Anyone know?
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2014-05-09T03:04:17Z White__Flame: quazimodo: I think that'd be highly dependent on your terminal settings
2014-05-09T03:04:48Z White__Flame: unless you actually mean a byte to control char mapping?
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2014-05-09T03:17:46Z quazimodo: White__Flame: well now that you mention it, I'm sorta apprehensive. I want to use Control+key combos, using getch to grab them. But if they are changing based on terminal, i'm going to need to wrap it all up in something that understands many  terminals, yes?
2014-05-09T03:20:23Z White__Flame: I'm no expert on terminal issues, so I don't know which control keys get reliably translated to bytes 0-31 without the system reinterpreting as something else
2014-05-09T03:20:45Z White__Flame: and that doesn't really help when doing function keys and the sort
2014-05-09T03:21:16Z White__Flame: but it shouldn't be hard to simply print out what's received and try keystrokes to see what comes through
2014-05-09T03:22:44Z White__Flame: some will no doubt be multi-byte sequences
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2014-05-09T03:23:45Z zRecursive: clhs read-char
2014-05-09T03:23:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_cha.htm
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2014-05-09T03:26:40Z quazimodo: yeah I've been doing that. I thuoght perhaps CL implementations will have defined it
2014-05-09T03:26:48Z quazimodo: <- not that knowledgeable on terminal stuff
2014-05-09T03:27:32Z White__Flame: nah, many OS specifics like that are not part of the spec
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2014-05-09T03:31:38Z clop2: does Common Lisp require that the result of (coerce x 'string) must be a freshly created string, assuming X is a character list?
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2014-05-09T03:33:30Z White__Flame: clop2: it doesn't seem like the CLHS description of coerce mandates it
2014-05-09T03:33:54Z White__Flame: I presume the alternative would be interned/flyweighted shared strings?
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2014-05-09T03:34:53Z White__Flame: I would also presume that no major CL implementation does that, and thus will return a freshly allocated string
2014-05-09T03:35:24Z clop2: sure, it does seem crazy, i was just hoping maybe there'd be something i could point to for sure
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2014-05-09T03:36:22Z quazimodo: for some reason I had swank source in /usr/share/common-lisp/source/slime but I don't remember ever installing that :/
2014-05-09T03:36:40Z White__Flame: clop2: defensive copies are your friend, if you must be absolutely certain
2014-05-09T03:37:07Z White__Flame: quazimodo: it likely came with your package manager based installs
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2014-05-09T03:45:28Z quazimodo: White__Flame: wasn't in dpkg :/ anyway...
2014-05-09T03:45:33Z quazimodo: maybe came with emacs
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2014-05-09T04:02:21Z ltbarcly: is there a way to get the path of the current .lisp file?
2014-05-09T04:02:48Z Bike: clhs *load-pathname*
2014-05-09T04:02:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_ld_pns.htm
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2014-05-09T07:47:49Z Poenikatu: Good morning all. I've just started to learn about types in Lisp (missing from Graham's ANSI Common Lisp and Seibel's PCL).
2014-05-09T07:49:06Z Poenikatu: What is the point of writing "(let* ((x (list 'a 'b 'c))
2014-05-09T07:49:06Z Poenikatu:                     (y 5))
2014-05-09T07:49:07Z Poenikatu:                (setf (the fixnum (car x)) y)
2014-05-09T07:49:07Z Poenikatu:                x)"
2014-05-09T07:49:26Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: don't paste here.
2014-05-09T07:49:37Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: paste.lisp.org
2014-05-09T07:49:40Z Poenikatu: hitecnologys: Ok, ok. Sorry
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2014-05-09T07:50:28Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: and I don't get your question. What's the point of what, exactly? Of LET*?
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2014-05-09T07:50:43Z H4ns: it is probably "the fixnum" that he's asking abou
2014-05-09T07:50:44Z H4ns: t
2014-05-09T07:50:48Z hitecnologys: Ah.
2014-05-09T07:50:58Z H4ns: Poenikatu: it is an aid for the compiler
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2014-05-09T07:51:16Z Poenikatu: What I wrote was an example of the use of (the... in the CLHS
2014-05-09T07:51:23Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: THE macro is used to tell the compiler about the type of expression.
2014-05-09T07:51:40Z H4ns: Poenikatu: when you compile at low safety levels, the compiler can use type assertions "the <type>" to generate more efficient code (i.e. to not generate run time type checks)
2014-05-09T07:51:54Z Poenikatu: But in the example, clearly (car x) is 'a, which cannot be a fixnum
2014-05-09T07:52:13Z H4ns: Poenikatu: at higher safety levels, type assertions are generally ignored and at lower levels, they can also be skipped over at the compiler's discretion
2014-05-09T07:52:17Z H4ns: Poenikatu: think cons cells
2014-05-09T07:52:52Z H4ns: Poenikatu: older compilers might take the declaration to determine that the fixnum can be directly placed into the cons cell.
2014-05-09T07:53:02Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: Y is a number which is put into CAR of X.
2014-05-09T07:53:02Z Poenikatu: H4ns: Think cons cells? Surely, a list consisting of '(a b c) does not have a fixnum in it.
2014-05-09T07:53:31Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: when we setf (car x) with Y, (car x) becomes Y which is a fixnum.
2014-05-09T07:53:38Z H4ns: Poenikatu: no.  but if your machine represents cons cells as either holding a pointer or a fixnum, the integer can be placed directly into the cons cell using a store operation.
2014-05-09T07:53:39Z Poenikatu: hitecnologys: Yes, I understand that, but the (the form specifies that the car of x is a fixnum, which it clearly is not
2014-05-09T07:53:50Z Bike: "setf can be used with the type declarations. In this case the declaration is transferred to the form that specifies the new value. The resulting setf form is then analyzed. "
2014-05-09T07:53:55Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: well, CAR can hold any value.
2014-05-09T07:53:56Z H4ns: Poenikatu: if this does not make sense to you, the cl type system will not be useful to you.
2014-05-09T07:54:05Z Bike: in other words, (setf (the ...) ...) actuall means (setf ... (the ...))
2014-05-09T07:54:39Z Poenikatu: Bike: Hm
2014-05-09T07:55:27Z Poenikatu: H4ns: Thanks for that, but I am now studying the Foreign Language Interface of LispWorks where the types of C functions are all-important
2014-05-09T07:55:34Z Bike: try, for instance, (get-setf-expansion '(the fixnum (car x)))
2014-05-09T07:55:45Z H4ns: Poenikatu: right.  then you'll have to make sense of it :)
2014-05-09T07:56:28Z Poenikatu: H4ns: Not too easy. I certainly understand the point of specifying types. What I don't understand is the meaning of the (the special form
2014-05-09T07:56:42Z H4ns: Poenikatu: it asserts a type to the compiler.
2014-05-09T07:57:11Z H4ns: Poenikatu: normally, when the compiler sees some form, it needs to determine the type of the expression, and often this involves a run-time type check
2014-05-09T07:57:39Z H4ns: Poenikatu: with type assertions and low safety levels, the compiler can make assumptions about the type of expressions and generate more efficient code.
2014-05-09T07:57:40Z Poenikatu: H4ns: Yes, I understand that.
2014-05-09T07:58:10Z Bike: so what don't you understand?
2014-05-09T07:58:14Z Bike: i mean, that's the whole thing
2014-05-09T07:58:47Z H4ns: Poenikatu: in your example, the type assertion "the fixnum" tells the compiler that a fixnum should be deposited in the car of the first cons cell constituting the list x.  now, normally, there would be a runtime test to determine the type of the value deposited.
2014-05-09T07:59:15Z H4ns: Poenikatu: with the type assertion, the compiler can generate a simple store instruction to the car of the cons cell, skipping the type check
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2014-05-09T07:59:59Z H4ns: Poenikatu: a sufficiently large compiler might even infer that the y is never changed and store a constant in the car.
2014-05-09T08:00:17Z Poenikatu: Bike: In saying, (the fixnum (car (list 'a 'b 'c))) clearly (car x) is a symbol, not a fixnum. Isn't that so?
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2014-05-09T08:00:30Z Bike: i told you how it works in setf forms!
2014-05-09T08:00:47Z Bike: (setf (the fixnum (car x)) y) is like (setf (car x) (the fixnum y))
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2014-05-09T08:01:06Z Poenikatu: Bike: I did do the (setf expansion form and I am aware that setf creates a gensym
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2014-05-09T08:01:24Z H4ns: Poenikatu: it is a place, not a symbol
2014-05-09T08:01:27Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: it's not about gensyms!
2014-05-09T08:01:36Z Poenikatu: Bike: Ok, I'll take your word for it.
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2014-05-09T08:01:43Z Bike: i was just quoting
2014-05-09T08:01:44Z Bike: clhs the
2014-05-09T08:01:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_the.htm
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2014-05-09T08:02:40Z Cymew: I think, just think, the issue here is how (setf x 12) is simple, and (setf (car x) 12) is different is at the core of the issue, right? I always find that latter expression throws people off.
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2014-05-09T08:03:05Z Cymew: ...or maybe I'm just totally wrong about Poenikatu's issue...
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2014-05-09T08:03:39Z Poenikatu: Cymew: I understand that setq refers to values whereas setf refers to places, or can do
2014-05-09T08:04:23Z H4ns: Poenikatu: so how do you think that the (car x) in your setf would refer to a symbol?
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2014-05-09T08:04:43Z Bike: H4ns: before the setf (car x) is the symbol a
2014-05-09T08:04:47Z H4ns: Poenikatu: it specifies a place.  the place where the symbol 'a is stored.
2014-05-09T08:04:55Z Poenikatu: H4ns: Because, in the (let* form, x is set to a list of ('a 'b 'c)
2014-05-09T08:05:25Z Cymew: Poenikatu: as long as you ignore setq and just focus on how setf is a generic setter, you should have the key point for all of this.
2014-05-09T08:05:43Z Poenikatu: Cymew: I must admit that I do not use setq.
2014-05-09T08:05:54Z Cymew: then don't think abou tit
2014-05-09T08:05:55Z H4ns: Poenikatu: rightfully so.  ignore setq.
2014-05-09T08:06:16Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: THE in this case refers to a type of (car x), not to a type of the value stored in it.
2014-05-09T08:06:19Z H4ns: Poenikatu: but you do need to understand places.  type assertions come after that.
2014-05-09T08:06:41Z Poenikatu: hitecnologys: Yes, I agree, but (car x) is 'a
2014-05-09T08:06:41Z Cymew: exactly
2014-05-09T08:06:42Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: do you know any other languages besides CL?
2014-05-09T08:07:18Z Poenikatu: hitecnologys: About a dozen
2014-05-09T08:07:20Z H4ns: Poenikatu: (car x) is 'a, but in (setf (car x) ...), (car x) is not 'a, but the place where 'a happens to be stored.
2014-05-09T08:07:45Z Poenikatu: H4ns: Aha! That's very helpful
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2014-05-09T08:08:36Z Poenikatu: hitecnologys: Have you every heard of Nicol and Simon?
2014-05-09T08:08:51Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: Nicol and Simon? Nope.
2014-05-09T08:09:23Z Poenikatu: hitecnologys: They were used on the old ICL 1900 series computers (mainframes). I learned them in 1970
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2014-05-09T08:10:06Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: if we take C, then int* x = [&a, &b, &c]; x[0] = 5;
2014-05-09T08:10:12Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: I see.
2014-05-09T08:10:13Z Poenikatu: Simon was simulation language which was preprocessed into Algol 60
2014-05-09T08:10:59Z hitecnologys: That's a bit off-topic, I was actually asking in order to try to translate the example into a language with strict static typing.
2014-05-09T08:11:06Z Poenikatu: hitecnologys: Yes, Ok. I now understand that the (the form refers to the eventual value to be stored in (car x)
2014-05-09T08:11:16Z H4ns: Poenikatu: wrong
2014-05-09T08:11:23Z H4ns: Poenikatu: the "the" just asserts the type.
2014-05-09T08:11:24Z hitecnologys: Poenikatu: it refers to a *place*.
2014-05-09T08:12:05Z H4ns: Poenikatu: in the expression that you've pasted, the type assertion actually refers to the expected type of the value deposited rather than the value addressed by the place. :)
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2014-05-09T08:12:27Z H4ns: Poenikatu: but the two things, places and type assertions, are really totally separate.
2014-05-09T08:12:36Z Poenikatu: H4ns: Yes, that I now understand
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2014-05-09T08:13:50Z Poenikatu: The point is, folks, upto now, I have been concentrating in getting my code to work correctly. Now that I have, more or less, succeeded in that, I am now considering efficiency
2014-05-09T08:13:59Z H4ns: Poenikatu: type assertions are only useful if you're optimizing, and you'll have to be able to read the assembly output of the compiled functions to put them to good use.
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2014-05-09T08:14:30Z H4ns: Poenikatu: so what you need to do is disassemble the function, look for runtime type checks, then assert types so that the compiler does not generate the type checks.
2014-05-09T08:14:49Z Poenikatu: H4ns: For the moment, I'm willing to accept that the compiler is optimizing, without me having to read assembler (which I have used in the past)
2014-05-09T08:14:57Z H4ns: Poenikatu: it is not useful to assert types blindly.  in the best case, they won't do anything, in the worst case, they break your program.
2014-05-09T08:15:13Z H4ns: Poenikatu: ok, so if that is what you want to do, you do not want to use type assertions at all.
2014-05-09T08:16:11Z Poenikatu: H4ns: Do *you* look at the assembler generated?
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2014-05-09T08:16:26Z H4ns: Poenikatu: if i need to, i do.
2014-05-09T08:16:33Z H4ns: Poenikatu: but it is very rare.
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2014-05-09T08:16:44Z Poenikatu: H4ns: Why so?
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2014-05-09T08:17:07Z H4ns: Poenikatu: my programs are fast enough without type assertions
2014-05-09T08:17:31Z H4ns: Poenikatu: basically, my cl code runs circles around the ruby scripts that the other folks in my company write :)
2014-05-09T08:17:34Z Poenikatu: H4ns: How do you ensure that they are "fast enough" without type assertions?
2014-05-09T08:17:56Z Poenikatu: H4ns: Of  course, isn't ruby an interpreted language?
2014-05-09T08:17:59Z H4ns: Poenikatu: my compiler (sbcl) is clever enough and the run time type checks are not that costly.
2014-05-09T08:18:31Z Poenikatu: H4ns: I accept that sbcl has a good compiler.
2014-05-09T08:18:42Z H4ns: Poenikatu: just in time compilation blurred the distinction between interpreted and compiled, but cl is much easier to optimize than ruby because ruby is _very_ dynamic.
2014-05-09T08:19:26Z Poenikatu: H4ns: I confess to knowing little about Ruby. It was invented in Japan, I know, and is supposed to be very oo
2014-05-09T08:19:28Z H4ns: Poenikatu: i worked on allegrograph's core once and there we really needed to squeeze out every bit of performance that we could get.  that was when i used type assertions and looked at assembly output to see the effects.
2014-05-09T08:19:45Z Poenikatu: H4ns: Yes, I understand
2014-05-09T08:20:17Z Poenikatu: You guys are so fortunate that in your professional lives, you are using CL. I envy you
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2014-05-09T08:21:02Z Poenikatu: Have sympathy for an old COBOL hacker!
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2014-05-09T08:21:58Z Poenikatu leaves to get to grips with types in CL and types in the FLI of LispWorks
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2014-05-09T08:37:40Z Cymew: ruby is a decent lisp, actually
2014-05-09T08:38:01Z dim: Cymew: yeah? they do have handler-bind and the compiler at run-time?
2014-05-09T08:38:09Z dim: I think that's my two favorites things in CL
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2014-05-09T08:38:12Z dim: CLOS, too
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2014-05-09T08:38:58Z jdz: i claim ruby is an undecent lisp
2014-05-09T08:39:00Z H4ns: ruby's syntax puts it far away from lisp.  it is no more a lisp than any other modern dynamic language with lambda and eval.
2014-05-09T08:39:24Z Cymew: I mostly write ruby like I do in lisp, that is, I write the expressions that make sense to me, and they exist. I mean "100.times do" and similar things feels just as "English" as lisp does do me. ;)
2014-05-09T08:39:24Z jdz: ruby's dynamicity will bite you more than it will help you
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2014-05-09T08:40:04Z H4ns: Cymew: that does not make it a "decent lisp".  it may be a decent programming language for you, leaving up questions about taste :)
2014-05-09T08:40:26Z Cymew: I concede that point. :)
2014-05-09T08:41:00Z Cymew: Isn't "decent programming language" the same as "decent lisp"
2014-05-09T08:41:08Z Cymew is only half serious
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2014-05-09T08:50:18Z Shinmera: The word "lisp" in itself is practically meaningless and by extension so is "decent lisp".
2014-05-09T08:50:58Z H4ns: Shinmera: in this channel, it means "common lisp" :)
2014-05-09T08:52:06Z Shinmera: H4ns: And I'm glad it does most of the time!
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2014-05-09T09:30:06Z p_l is more and more impressed that AGraph should be on top of list of "impressive big projects in Lisp"
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2014-05-09T09:30:47Z p_l: even if it makes it annoying to setup tests
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2014-05-09T09:33:42Z jdz: p_l: s/impressed/convinced ?
2014-05-09T09:33:52Z p_l: jdz: both?
2014-05-09T09:34:04Z p_l: AGraph is helluva impressive
2014-05-09T09:34:42Z jdz: and helluva expensive?
2014-05-09T09:34:51Z p_l: not only they claim biggest single-server store, they have no materialization stage, which I *love*
2014-05-09T09:34:56Z jdz: i know, it's orthogonal, but i have no data points on that front
2014-05-09T09:35:03Z p_l: jdz: pretty sure Oracle beats them in pricing
2014-05-09T09:35:14Z p_l: in pricing themselves at the top, that is
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2014-05-09T09:36:01Z p_l: and out of two database servers that deserve special note in my thesis, there's AGraph and Oracle (and not base license of Oracle, nope)
2014-05-09T09:37:06Z jdz: i did some playing around at some point, and i was also very impressed by Virtuoso (i think that's the one i tried)
2014-05-09T09:37:21Z p_l: Virtuoso pretty much misses the featureset I work on
2014-05-09T09:37:42Z p_l: (security in semantic database)
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2014-05-09T09:38:58Z p_l: Oracle and AGraph got rudimentary triple-level-security as they call it, and Oracle got some model-based controls
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2014-05-09T09:40:32Z p_l: Virtuoso got "we can restrict per named graph, name and label it yourself"
2014-05-09T09:42:27Z p_l: something that I hark heavily on, because, imagine sorting through big database so you can tag individual IRIs into named graphs
2014-05-09T09:42:47Z p_l: especially if there has to be multilateral security etc.
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2014-05-09T09:59:43Z leo2007: what the most convenient way to communicate some values (from CL) to other apps (might be in different language)?
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2014-05-09T10:00:37Z H4ns: leo2007: "most convenient" would be "write to files".  also the most error prone and unscaleable
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2014-05-09T10:01:06Z splittist: zeromq?
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2014-05-09T10:09:28Z leo2007: any good zmq clients for cl?
2014-05-09T10:11:30Z jdz: leo2007: isn't there one listed on their page?
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2014-05-09T10:37:28Z H4ns: the "official" one was crap when i looked at it years ago
2014-05-09T10:37:49Z H4ns: there are several forks that may be better, and unrelated ones as well
2014-05-09T10:38:09Z splittist: lisp-zmq has amusing docs
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2014-05-09T10:38:23Z jdz: Andrew Lawson of Ravenpack gave a lightning talk about their happy experiences of using 0MQ
2014-05-09T10:39:24Z jdz: so there must be at least one that is working as expected
2014-05-09T10:39:37Z brucem: if you end up having to do your own bindings, nanomsg is from one of the original authors of zmq and much easier to bind and work with (it is pure C).
2014-05-09T10:40:22Z H4ns: all that hardly qualifies as "most convenient"
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2014-05-09T10:43:16Z splittist: to be fair, we haven't been given much context. 'some values' might be two positive integers less than 10 or gigabytes of multi-inheritance objects.
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2014-05-09T10:43:55Z H4ns: granted :)
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2014-05-09T11:32:30Z hitecnologys thinks he should do complete analysis of current state of all the projects in Quicklisp one day
2014-05-09T11:33:06Z hitecnologys: And automating this thing would be a good idea too.
2014-05-09T11:34:21Z jdz: what kind of analysis?
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2014-05-09T11:37:17Z hitecnologys: Jusi general overview of how many projects were abondoned, outdated now, replaced by other projects; how many authors don't maintain anything anymore, how may projects are maintained by a single person/group of people; what ASDF features do developers make use of; dependencies graph for all QL projects; etc.
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2014-05-09T11:38:42Z hitecnologys: s/Jusi/Just/
2014-05-09T11:41:00Z jdz: parts of that can definitely be automated
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2014-05-09T11:42:00Z hitecnologys: Aha.
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2014-05-09T11:42:40Z hitecnologys: Will probably do this on summer holidays.
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2014-05-09T11:51:41Z pjb: minion: memo for quazimodo: man ascii # notice how conveniently the codes #o100+ are listed in parallel to the codes #o000
2014-05-09T11:51:41Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell quazimodo when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-05-09T12:19:53Z pjb: minion: memo for Poenikatu: the THE operators means: The Human Error.  It's a recursive acronym, as hackers like them.
2014-05-09T12:19:53Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Poenikatu when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-05-09T12:21:10Z pjb: minion: memo for Poenikatu: When you use the THE operators, it's THE fault of the Human (you) if^W when anything goes wrong.
2014-05-09T12:21:10Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Poenikatu when he/she/it next speaks.
2014-05-09T12:21:56Z H4ns: pjb: protip:  you can use /msg to instruct minion
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2014-05-09T12:22:10Z H4ns: pjb: in this case, it would spare us from having to read that crap two times.
2014-05-09T12:23:44Z pjb: H4ns: I want also teach other people to give the good answers :-)
2014-05-09T12:24:01Z pjb: and teaching is based on repeatition.
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2014-05-09T12:57:35Z lukego: Random thought. I wonder how you could do SLIME all over again in a much simpler way? would it be interesting to use Markdown as the basic format for stuff to show the user (repl results, backtraces, etc) with e.g. “Object [foo](presentation:12345)” for metadata to do presentations, function names, etc in linkable ways.
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2014-05-09T12:58:34Z lukego: I wonder if a unix shell could even potentially be a frontend instead of Emacs. not sure how you would render stuff like hyperlinks. (perhaps with some fancy terminal app...)
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2014-05-09T12:59:12Z lukego: (maybe what I’m thinking of is less like SLIME and more like a CLIM reader.)
2014-05-09T12:59:24Z oleo: morning
2014-05-09T12:59:29Z oleo: someone said clim ?
2014-05-09T12:59:32Z oleo: geez
2014-05-09T12:59:34Z oleo: :)
2014-05-09T13:00:55Z jdz: lukego: it think stuff like that is whay clojurians have come up with (and moved to) nrepl
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2014-05-09T13:02:28Z lukego: jdz: did they (or others) ever crack the problem of making things work well with different languages?
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2014-05-09T13:03:11Z jdz: lukego: not sure that was part of their design criteria.
2014-05-09T13:03:37Z jdz: lukego: i don't know much about nrepl and clojure anyway, just had a talk with a clojurian in ELS2014
2014-05-09T13:03:45Z splittist: lukego: what are 'things'
2014-05-09T13:04:01Z lukego: did anybody try taking that design route? like: low but clean common denominator for supporting several languages?
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2014-05-09T13:04:53Z lukego: splittist: good question. some subset of: find definition, lookup args, lookup documentation, inspector, debugger.
2014-05-09T13:04:54Z jdz: nrepl supposedly has support for "plugins" (or wrappers)
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2014-05-09T13:08:49Z p_l: jdz: "middleware"
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2014-05-09T13:09:19Z p_l: lukego: markdown would be hilarious bad format
2014-05-09T13:09:44Z p_l: lukego: SLIME, n.b., already uses CLIM-style approach, with presentations
2014-05-09T13:10:16Z lukego: markdown thought was to be more frontend-agnostic. (half baked, I realize.)
2014-05-09T13:10:27Z p_l: lukego: more like very, very, very frontend-specific
2014-05-09T13:10:38Z splittist: json, then (:
2014-05-09T13:10:40Z p_l: complete opposite of what you intended
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2014-05-09T13:10:51Z p_l: splittist: or keep S-expressions
2014-05-09T13:10:55Z lukego: and to be able to write UI code like (format t “That is a **really** bad idea.”) and get some rendering.
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2014-05-09T13:12:20Z splittist: lukego: it's not clear to me what you are trying to tie together. Vim and Clang as well as sbcl and emacs?
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2014-05-09T13:12:42Z lukego: splittist: roughly, yep
2014-05-09T13:12:45Z p_l: lukego: (:form (:call "format") (:arg t :type :bool) (:arg "This is a **really** bad idea." :type :string))
2014-05-09T13:13:28Z splittist: p_l: I think lukego wants the display to show the 'really' in bold, blinking, red or something.
2014-05-09T13:13:33Z p_l: the rendering of **really** bad unfortunately depends on text substitution *or* adding ZetaLisp-like reader extensions, unfortunately, otherwise you're possibly infecting code
2014-05-09T13:14:06Z p_l: splittist: Yes, but that's a possible mangling of code I'd like to avoid unless the language directly supports it (like Genera languages did)
2014-05-09T13:14:34Z p_l: those, however, depended on specific rules that covered reading and writing such formats in ways that did not break programs
2014-05-09T13:14:39Z p_l: most languages do not have such rules
2014-05-09T13:15:16Z p_l: at least so long as you use text storage for source, that is. Storing code as objects can render it easy.
2014-05-09T13:15:17Z splittist: p_l: Understandable. Perhaps utilise the unused parts of unicode to provide markup :P
2014-05-09T13:15:39Z p_l: splittist: bad idea. You never know if the program didn't intend to use those parts
2014-05-09T13:15:49Z Shinmera: Is there a way to make something only be compiled / read when the debug level is on three? Or more generally, is there a way to get the current debug / speed / whatnot optimisation setting?
2014-05-09T13:16:19Z p_l: splittist: you need a clear-cut method of integrating that kind of markup with code in a way that the compiler won't barf on
2014-05-09T13:17:53Z splittist: p_l: I wasn't actually thinking of marking up up source. That strikes me as something that should be controlled by the poor schlub trying to read the code, not the careless yahoo writing it. (Even if they are the same person.)
2014-05-09T13:18:18Z splittist: p_l: I know they abused fonts that way in the Symbolics era etc.
2014-05-09T13:18:41Z p_l: splittist: the readers/parsers understood the markup thus making it viable
2014-05-09T13:19:25Z splittist: Yes, and these were the folks that allowed you to specify Roman as print- and read-base.
2014-05-09T13:19:40Z CrazyWoods: Which are the common practise when deal with large project with mix programming language, how they communicate with each modules, by socket/function invoke or http like protocol?
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2014-05-09T13:21:51Z p_l: CrazyWoods: depends on the design
2014-05-09T13:22:17Z p_l: commonly abused is HTTP
2014-05-09T13:22:20Z H4ns: CrazyWoods: http is pretty popular nowadays and much preferable to "http like" or homegrown.
2014-05-09T13:22:21Z p_l: even when it doesn't fit
2014-05-09T13:22:30Z H4ns: lukego: o/
2014-05-09T13:22:35Z p_l: message queues can be very good idea
2014-05-09T13:22:37Z lukego: H4ns: howdy :)
2014-05-09T13:22:41Z p_l: sometimes, more specific IPC
2014-05-09T13:23:15Z p_l: CrazyWoods: also, I really, really suggest avoiding RPC pattern, especially if for whatever reason you decide to make the thing distributed
2014-05-09T13:23:25Z lukego: CrazyEddy: Call me retro but I am having program A spitting out text files for program B to read, and trying to keep the communication unidirectional (acyclic directed graph i.e. nothing “talking back” and potentially creating a mixup)
2014-05-09T13:24:03Z Xach: crazy like a fox
2014-05-09T13:24:59Z Krystof: lukego: what are you doing on this channel, heretic?
2014-05-09T13:25:20Z Krystof: I spoke to someone at ELS about you.  He said, "Luke Gorrie.  Hmm, wasn't he some kind of lisp guy?"
2014-05-09T13:25:35Z lukego: Krystof: I have a really hard deadline at the moment, so of course I had to come on IRC...
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2014-05-09T13:25:54Z p_l: lukego: o/
2014-05-09T13:26:02Z lukego: :-) p_l
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2014-05-09T13:27:18Z lukego: CrazyEddy: I’m doing a social experiment at the moment. Contributing code to OpenStack where the culture is MySQL + MiddlewareCode + RabbitMQ. I did my extension as CSV + git + PostprocessingCode.
2014-05-09T13:28:03Z lukego: idea being it’s hard to write race conditions etc when the workflow is “master checks in a file to git; all slaves do a regular ‘git pull'"
2014-05-09T13:28:32Z lukego: also makes it relatively hard to write bugs where e.g. reboot of master or slave will hurt somebody else (missed messages, etc)
2014-05-09T13:28:55Z lukego: Krystof: ELS was fun?
2014-05-09T13:29:00Z p_l: depends how what the slaves do, I think
2014-05-09T13:29:33Z p_l technically doesn't yet properly know the language he is supposed to submit his project in
2014-05-09T13:30:16Z p_l: afk, going to ask for medical cause deadline extension (I actually have real reasons for that one, so it's not just sick note fraud :))
2014-05-09T13:30:48Z CrazyWoods: p_l: What's RPC?
2014-05-09T13:30:57Z lukego: CrazyEddy: btw your question is currently a multibillion dollar industry called “software defined networking” that is basically arguing about how to configure networks of ethernet switches.
2014-05-09T13:31:09Z oleo: remote procedure call
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2014-05-09T13:31:16Z CrazyWoods: ok
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2014-05-09T13:31:42Z CrazyWoods: then what are the glue language aim at?
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2014-05-09T14:28:03Z memento: Hello, i want to use the relative path of a file, to use it for the function (with-open-file) but i can only use the absolut. Any help?
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2014-05-09T14:28:55Z oGMo: memento: see *default-pathname-defaults*
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2014-05-09T14:36:27Z jdz: memento: also, enough-namestring
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2014-05-09T15:11:12Z memento: Is there a way to pass an array as a function argument with all its elements?
2014-05-09T15:11:40Z Xach: memento: that is what usually happens.
2014-05-09T15:11:56Z stassats: what prompted that question?
2014-05-09T15:12:02Z memento: I get error
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2014-05-09T15:13:26Z memento: i have an array a, and i just want to print it. http://ideone.com/s54zLR
2014-05-09T15:13:54Z pjb: Main.java:1: error: class, interface, or enum expected / (defun check (the array here)
2014-05-09T15:13:54Z pjb:  
2014-05-09T15:13:57Z pjb: erm…
2014-05-09T15:14:03Z pjb: memento: perhaps you want to as on #java ?
2014-05-09T15:14:06Z pjb: ask
2014-05-09T15:14:43Z Xach: memento: (defun check (a) (print a)) is one way to fix.
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2014-05-09T15:15:14Z pjb: First putting it in a .lisp file and compiling it with a lisp compiler instead of a java compiler.
2014-05-09T15:15:44Z Xach: I think that is an artifact of the paste site.
2014-05-09T15:15:53Z Xach: Better to use paste.lisp.org usually.
2014-05-09T15:18:11Z stassats: which doesn't have a java compiler, or any compiler
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2014-05-09T15:21:28Z memento: Guys, i just used a paste platform, i didnt know about paste.lisp
2014-05-09T15:22:05Z stassats: memento: can you print an integer?
2014-05-09T15:22:27Z memento: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142464
2014-05-09T15:22:34Z memento: yes i can print an integer
2014-05-09T15:22:46Z stassats: so, it's the same with arrays
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2014-05-09T15:23:47Z memento: http://prntscr.com/3hmudn
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2014-05-09T15:24:13Z stassats: you are mightily confused
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2014-05-09T15:24:49Z stassats: and the error message is pretty clear
2014-05-09T15:25:35Z memento: excuse me
2014-05-09T15:26:26Z memento: excuse me, thats what i wanted to show http://prntscr.com/3hmv2z
2014-05-09T15:26:37Z mrSpec: Hello guys! Has anyone else  got issue with new slime (from quicklisp)? Mine seems to remove spaces from command history, so when I use M-p, I have commands without all spaces!
2014-05-09T15:26:46Z stassats: memento: why did you wrap A in parenthesis?
2014-05-09T15:26:55Z stassats: memento: what are you using to learn lisp?
2014-05-09T15:27:07Z stassats: mrSpec: your slime is too old
2014-05-09T15:27:40Z mrSpec: stassats: should I use slime from github?
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2014-05-09T15:27:58Z stassats: if that's what you have to do to stop using the old one
2014-05-09T15:28:05Z memento: stassats, that was my mistake, parenthesis was unnecessary thanks a lo
2014-05-09T15:28:06Z memento: stassats, that was my mistake, parenthesis was unnecessary thanks a lot
2014-05-09T15:28:35Z mrSpec: stassats: oki, thx ;)
2014-05-09T15:28:40Z jdz: is it the season of homework hand-in?
2014-05-09T15:28:53Z memento: indeed it is
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2014-05-09T16:01:31Z jimbow: i have this awesome clipboard utility for the command shell
2014-05-09T16:01:55Z jimbow: it's an idea*
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2014-05-09T17:06:01Z jasom: maybe we should create a channel named "lisp-homework" to keep this channel from being polluted...
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2014-05-09T17:08:10Z jasom: CrazyWoods: ZMQ tries to solve a lot of the language-independent communication patterns; combine it with a serialization format and you have all you need for IPC for about 90% of problems, and it's arguably easier to build whatever else you need on top of it for the other 10% (most commonly you'll need some sort of broker, as the "zero" in ZMQ is "zero brokers")
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2014-05-09T17:09:51Z jasom: CrazyWoods: I'm maintainer for a small webserver that uses zmq to communicate with any number of programming languages that can dynamically generate webpages
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2014-05-09T17:15:21Z Fare: someone at ELS 2014 described how happy they were using ZeroMQ from CL.
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2014-05-09T17:16:51Z jdz: Fare: Andrew Lawson, from Ravenpack
2014-05-09T17:16:58Z jdz: Fare: i already mentioned that :)
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2014-05-09T17:17:44Z pjb: jasom: yes, #lisp-homework is a good idea.
2014-05-09T17:20:13Z Fare: jdz: I need an irc client that automatically inserts logs from the web...
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2014-05-09T17:34:01Z Viaken: jasom: That sounds like an interesting project.
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2014-05-09T17:49:26Z _death: jasom: when I read that description I thought "didn't zed shaw write something like this?".. then I remembered I saw your nick @ its github repo page
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2014-05-09T18:20:39Z Fare: any op to put in the topic that ASDF 3.1.2 is out?
2014-05-09T18:20:56Z stassats: no op needed?
2014-05-09T18:21:09Z Fare changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://paste.lisp.org/new>. |Contact op if you can't speak| New: asdf 3.1.2, drakma 1.3.9, cl-launch 4.0.4, cl-ppcre 2.0.7, hunchentoot  1.2.26, flexi-streams 1.0.10
2014-05-09T18:21:12Z Fare: wow.
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2014-05-09T18:23:50Z Fare changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://paste.lisp.org/new>. |Contact op if you can't speak| New: asdf 3.1.2, cl-launch 4.0.4, cl-ppcre 2.0.7, drakma 1.3.9, hunchentoot 1.2.26, flexi-streams 1.0.11
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2014-05-09T18:25:12Z stassats: it became 1.0.11?
2014-05-09T18:25:26Z Fare: that's what its .asd file says
2014-05-09T18:25:33Z stassats: the current version is 1.0.12, in actually, but it has been a long time, so it's better to drop it
2014-05-09T18:26:00Z Fare: oh. The .asd file still says 1.0.11. Sigh.
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2014-05-09T18:26:29Z Fare had to tweak the cl-launch release script to make sure such discrepancies wouldn't happen on released versions
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2014-05-09T18:26:44Z Fare changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://paste.lisp.org/new>. |Contact op if you can't speak| New: asdf 3.1.2, cl-launch 4.0.4
2014-05-09T18:26:56Z Fare: (anymore)
2014-05-09T18:27:30Z Fare: How long haven't I raved about how much nicer it is to write scripts in CL rather than in /bin/sh ?
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2014-05-09T18:28:54Z stassats: well, if i change it to 1.0.12 in .asd, it won't be picked up until the release, so it needs to be changed to 1.0.13 and a new release made
2014-05-09T18:29:09Z stassats: and H4ns is the one for making releases
2014-05-09T18:30:19Z Fare: I did have an "interesting" bug in the cl-launch release script: (argv0) returned "./release.lisp" which I then merged with (getcwd), which yielded "/home/tunes/cl/cl-launch/./release.lisp", the directory of which was "/home/tunes/cl/cl-launch/./" which when you went :back one directory level was "/home/tunes/cl/cl-launch/" ... OOPS
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2014-05-09T18:30:34Z Fare: my "solution" was to use truename after I merge...
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2014-05-09T18:31:37Z Fare: Yeah, cl-launch 4.0.3 thought it was 4.0.2.3, which was embarrassing, so I released 4.0.4 with otherwise very small changes, but a much improved release script that checks versions.
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2014-05-09T18:32:36Z Fare: gendl, thanks a lot for the asdf testing on Windows!
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2014-05-09T18:52:51Z jdz: Fare: i don't see cl-launch in homebrew; should i add it?
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2014-05-09T18:53:04Z jdz: (have not done it before, but should be trivial)
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2014-05-09T18:54:16Z Fare: jdz: by all means, please add cl-launch to homebrew
2014-05-09T18:54:30Z Fare: and if possible symlink it to /usr/bin/cl
2014-05-09T18:54:47Z Fare: a minimal install is pretty easy
2014-05-09T18:54:47Z jdz: yeah, i'm just wondering how that could be done
2014-05-09T18:55:08Z Fare: I'm wondering what the default options should be... you decide
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2014-05-09T18:56:11Z Fare: (see cl -V for what these options could be)
2014-05-09T18:56:31Z nicdev: Fare: I just tried a pull from git://common-lisp.net/projects/xcvb/cl-launch.git and it says 'Already up-to-date' even though I have version 4.0.2.3. are the latest changes somewhere else?
2014-05-09T18:57:18Z Fare: oops, had forgotten to push after I published the tarball
2014-05-09T18:57:19Z Fare: done.
2014-05-09T18:57:57Z Fare: (I don't push *before* because until I get the debian release just right, I need to commit --amend and commit tag -f ...)
2014-05-09T18:58:02Z Fare: nicdev: thanks
2014-05-09T18:58:24Z Fare: differences from 4.0.2.3 / 4.0.3 are quite small.
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2014-05-09T19:10:31Z nicdev: Fare: that push policy makes sense.
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2014-05-09T19:13:42Z Fare: nicdev: forgetting to push is still a bug — thanks for finding it
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2014-05-09T19:56:25Z moore: +++++
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2014-05-09T20:10:20Z nydel: g'day
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2014-05-09T21:04:43Z daGrevis_: hi! im learning lisp by creating lisp myself. how do you call function body in lisp? i'm implementing lambda in my language and i'm thinking about how to call it. 1st arg is args as in function args. second one?
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2014-05-09T21:07:04Z stassats: should be there a second one?
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2014-05-09T21:09:50Z daGrevis_: stassats, function body
2014-05-09T21:10:09Z daGrevis_: (lambda (arg1 arg2) (fn-body))
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2014-05-09T21:10:27Z stassats: LAMBDA is not a function
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2014-05-09T21:11:40Z daGrevis_: hmm, interesting
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2014-05-09T21:11:46Z daGrevis_: can you explain me how do they differ?
2014-05-09T21:11:59Z stassats: there are special operators
2014-05-09T21:12:09Z rszeno: daGrevis_, http://www.civilized.com/files/lispbook.pdf
2014-05-09T21:12:11Z stassats: lambda is one of them, along with PROGN
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2014-05-09T21:12:19Z oGMo: it may be helpful if you _use_ a lisp before hopping into writing one heh
2014-05-09T21:12:27Z |3b|: just a macro actually, FUNCTION is the special operator
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2014-05-09T21:12:35Z daGrevis_: i have used cojure sorry if it's not lisp enough :]
2014-05-09T21:12:44Z stassats: |3b|: i'm sure daGrevis_ cares about that
2014-05-09T21:13:00Z oGMo: surely clojure has macros
2014-05-09T21:13:04Z |3b|: well, it matters if implementing something that looks like CL :)
2014-05-09T21:13:27Z |3b|: though at this point it sounds like not CL, so probably doesn't care
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2014-05-09T21:14:11Z stassats: |3b|: any macro can be implemented as a special operator
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2014-05-09T21:14:38Z |3b|: daGrevis_: are you just asking about variable names as opposed to actual implementation/how stuff works?
2014-05-09T21:15:03Z daGrevis_: |3b|, there's this https://github.com/daGrevis/diy-lisp
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2014-05-09T21:15:30Z daGrevis_: |3b|, i was just implementing lambda and wanted to know how you guys name 2nd arg of lambda
2014-05-09T21:15:54Z daGrevis_: because as far as I understand, the thing I'm creating is something that's similar to Lisp-1
2014-05-09T21:15:55Z |3b|: 'body' is the usual name in CL
2014-05-09T21:16:03Z daGrevis_: thanks
2014-05-09T21:16:22Z daGrevis_: but I can't say function body, right?
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2014-05-09T21:16:28Z daGrevis_: because lambda is not a function
2014-05-09T21:16:46Z daGrevis_: stassats seemed pretty upset :(
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2014-05-09T21:17:16Z |3b|: right, it has to be either a macro or special operator, since the arguments are not evaluated
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2014-05-09T21:17:51Z daGrevis_: i'm aware i can't implement lambda as normal function
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2014-05-09T21:18:04Z oGMo: but body is the body of the function produced
2014-05-09T21:18:09Z daGrevis_: yes thanks
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2014-05-09T21:18:15Z daGrevis_: we did misunderstand each other
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2014-05-09T21:19:01Z |3b|: also, this channel is about CL, which is a lisp-2 (or lisp-n depending on how you interpret it)
2014-05-09T21:19:04Z daGrevis_: i was not asking if lambda is a function. i was asking if 2nd argument of lambda can be called function-body in my-toy-little-lisp **evaluator** because lambda is creating a function
2014-05-09T21:19:18Z |3b|: you can call it anything you want
2014-05-09T21:19:54Z daGrevis_: mkay, thanks for your time
2014-05-09T21:19:58Z |3b| doesn't know of any lisps where argument names affect anything aside from readability
2014-05-09T21:20:20Z daGrevis_: true. but you know, readability counts
2014-05-09T21:20:27Z daGrevis_: at least for me; dunno about you
2014-05-09T21:20:54Z |3b| would call it 'body', don't know that i would be confused by 'function-body' though
2014-05-09T21:21:29Z |3b| wouldn't call it 'fn-body' though, CL style is to spell out whole words, and i like that style :)
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2014-05-09T21:25:09Z daGrevis_: y i like that style too even if i'm not lisper yet
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2014-05-09T21:32:16Z Shinmera: Hooray, another project of mine submitted to Quicklisp.
2014-05-09T21:32:41Z oGMo: Shinmera: which one?
2014-05-09T21:32:48Z Shinmera: oGMo: http://shinmera.github.io/CLSS/
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2014-05-09T21:33:01Z Shinmera: Also apparently QL breached the 1000 projects mark, which is pretty nice
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2014-05-09T21:33:33Z oGMo: i'm surprised it's only 1000 actually
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2014-05-09T21:34:10Z Shinmera: I'm guessing there's a lot of "dark" projects that people don't publicise or don't dare to submit.
2014-05-09T21:34:49Z oGMo: well sure but i mostly mean i can typically quickload something for just about anything
2014-05-09T21:35:06Z oGMo: relatively high s/n or something
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2014-05-09T21:35:26Z Fare: antonv```, thanks a lot once again for cl-test-grid
2014-05-09T21:35:55Z Fare: the success of asdf3 would not have been possible without it
2014-05-09T21:36:01Z Shinmera: oGMo: True that. Most of the things I've been doing so far have been reinventing the wheel as I wasn't quite satisfied in the way things were done in another library.
2014-05-09T21:36:34Z oGMo: Shinmera: same
2014-05-09T21:36:39Z oGMo: well
2014-05-09T21:36:42Z Fare: Shinmera, mind Olin Shivers' advice about library-writing.
2014-05-09T21:36:45Z oGMo: for anything i've reinvented
2014-05-09T21:36:56Z Fare: and my own Library Consolidation advice.
2014-05-09T21:37:04Z Shinmera: Fare: I don't think I've read that before
2014-05-09T21:37:26Z Fare: see the README of his scheme regex library
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2014-05-09T21:37:45Z Fare: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/shivers/papers/sre.txt
2014-05-09T21:37:55Z Shinmera: Ah, thank you
2014-05-09T21:38:06Z Fare: http://fare.livejournal.com/169346.html
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2014-05-09T21:40:09Z Shinmera: I can definitely agree with the 80% sentiment. I try to build my libraries as their isolated thing and work on them until I consider them "whole" to try to avoid only doing what interests me personally.
2014-05-09T21:40:37Z Shinmera: Of course, I'm always afraid (and most likely correctly so) that I still won't cover everything I should.
2014-05-09T21:41:34Z oGMo: eh .. i'm not sure anyone ever will, but if you use it considerably you'll expand it pretty far
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2014-05-09T21:42:01Z oGMo: i don't really agree with the 100% thing because even if you sit down and say "i'm going to write this 100% right now" you're not going to, just because you don't know enough
2014-05-09T21:42:32Z oGMo: but write it, use it a lot, and it'll get close to 100% of what everyone needs
2014-05-09T21:42:44Z Shinmera: Well you're never going to reach 100%. I'm more agreeing with the mindset of writing the library reaching for the 100% than writing it just to get to the point where you can use it for whatever major goal you had.
2014-05-09T21:42:47Z oGMo: which is still probably ~85%, but
2014-05-09T21:42:59Z oGMo: Shinmera: certainly
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2014-05-09T21:47:08Z Fare: 100% is a mindset. It doesn't mean "wait until you're at 100% to publish" but "never be satisfied until bugs are fixed, the architecture allows for the desired future features, etc."
2014-05-09T21:47:31Z oGMo: with that i agree completely
2014-05-09T21:48:13Z Fare: it means that as a maintainer you'll keep up with whatever joneses provide alternate libraries for the same domain.
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2014-05-09T21:48:22Z Shinmera: Fare: I'm not quite sure I agree with "one library per problem domain". Doing things differently for the same domain can add value and cannot always be combined into one. Of course, merging should be done where possible.
2014-05-09T21:48:37Z Fare: Shinmera, I discuss that in the details.
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2014-05-09T21:49:05Z Fare: and yes, sometimes you realize that "the" domain is actually two subdomains.
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2014-05-09T21:50:37Z Shinmera: Fare: I didn't quite read that out of the details, but alright.
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2014-05-09T21:51:53Z jebes: movitz is a completely dead project now, isn't it?
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2014-05-09T21:52:07Z Fare: jebes: is free software ever "completely dead"?
2014-05-09T21:52:14Z Xach: jebes: not quite dead. you can still get it.
2014-05-09T21:52:20Z Fare: like Cthulhu, it could raise from the dead, if only someone forked it
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2014-05-09T21:52:42Z jebes: I have it forked and am going to start hacking on it, but it will end up quite mutalated...
2014-05-09T21:53:00Z Fare: but yes, the Haskell or OCaml variants on the same idea have had more success.
2014-05-09T21:53:09Z nyef: SBCL-os is far less likely to get resurrected than Movitz is, I think. (-:
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2014-05-09T21:54:04Z Xach: jebes: i don't think the original author is likely to add things to it any time soon. if you want to share your work with the world, it should be with a new name.
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2014-05-09T21:58:11Z Fare: You could rename your fork movic or moviţ or movič
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2014-05-09T21:58:33Z Xach: or JebOS
2014-05-09T21:59:10Z jebes: I have my own pet OS that isn't going anywhere, might as well name this project after that
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2014-05-09T22:12:28Z pjb: daGrevis_: (defmacro lambda (boobs &body claudia-shiffer) …)
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2014-05-09T22:13:04Z pjb: seriously, (defmacro lambda (lambda-list &body body) …)
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2014-05-09T22:13:17Z daGrevis_: nah i'm fine with boobs:)
2014-05-09T22:13:39Z rszeno typo &body -> &feet
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2014-05-09T22:56:51Z Xach: pjb: that is unnecessary
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2014-05-09T23:13:12Z pjb: Xach: of course, any joke is unnecessary.
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2014-05-09T23:31:06Z jebes: i just made the most hacky list flattner
2014-05-09T23:31:50Z jebes: (apply #'apply #'apply (lambda (&rest x) x) [list]) flattens a list one level
2014-05-09T23:33:54Z jebes: or two levels
2014-05-09T23:34:41Z nyef: That... seems more than a bit sketchy to me.
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2014-05-09T23:36:44Z nyef: (let (([list] '((1 2 3) 4 5))) (apply #'apply #'apply (lambda (&rest x) x) [list])) => *BOOM*
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2014-05-09T23:37:23Z jebes: yeah, there should only be one apply.
2014-05-09T23:37:25Z nyef: Impressively *BOOM*, actually.
2014-05-09T23:38:42Z nyef: So... (apply #'apply (lambda ...) [list])?
2014-05-09T23:38:50Z jebes: i'm posting it on ide-one
2014-05-09T23:39:07Z nyef: Hrm. Still boom.
2014-05-09T23:39:21Z jebes: on a list without any nested lists, yes.
2014-05-09T23:39:27Z jebes: I said it was hacky ;)
2014-05-09T23:39:41Z nyef: And (1 2 3) is obviously a nested list.
2014-05-09T23:40:10Z jebes:  http://ideone.com/FMF2LJ
2014-05-09T23:41:00Z nyef: And if you do it with '(1 2 3 ((4) 6)), does it still work?
2014-05-09T23:41:24Z jebes: yeah
2014-05-09T23:41:28Z jebes: it does actually.
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2014-05-09T23:42:34Z nyef: Hrm.
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2014-05-09T23:43:35Z nyef: Ah, it's '(1 2 (3 (4)) 6) that fails.
2014-05-09T23:44:59Z jebes: i wonder why.
2014-05-09T23:45:53Z nyef: I have my own questions, but they relate more to how that failure behaves in SBCL.
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2014-05-09T23:53:39Z Zulander1: Hello All
2014-05-09T23:53:44Z jebes: hi
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2014-05-10T00:57:15Z Chosen: hey. do you guys use slime?
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2014-05-10T00:57:42Z Chosen: scharan hi
2014-05-10T00:58:23Z jebes: using it now
2014-05-10T00:58:43Z Chosen: cool. I want to be a real lisper so I installed slime.
2014-05-10T00:58:48Z Chosen: and am learnign lisp
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2014-05-10T00:59:34Z Chosen: so can slime provide autocompletion like Visual Studio?  like pop up and complete the word? Can it integrate with autocomplete emacs extension?
2014-05-10T01:00:25Z Chosen: jebes. are you a real lisper?
2014-05-10T01:00:37Z Chosen: like the hard core kind who understands recursoin and macros?
2014-05-10T01:00:40Z jebes: i have no expeirence with autocomplete (i don't use it) but you can use C-c TAB for slime's builting autocompletion. It doesn't have a pop up but it opens a new frame to display the possible completions
2014-05-10T01:00:50Z jebes: Recursion and macros are pretty easy concepts to understand...
2014-05-10T01:01:01Z jebes: learning how to apply them, not so much
2014-05-10T01:01:28Z Chosen: Damn, you are a real lisper if you think that. You don't know what you have become, since you have become a lisper.
2014-05-10T01:01:40Z Chosen: i only know how to do loops.
2014-05-10T01:01:55Z phadthai: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Programmer
2014-05-10T01:01:55Z DigitalRunes: recursion is much more general a topic than just a lisp thing
2014-05-10T01:02:23Z Chosen: yeah but lispers are like super recursive compared to other people.
2014-05-10T01:02:23Z phadthai: real lisper reminds me of real programmer :)
2014-05-10T01:02:38Z jebes: that what i was thinking too, phadthai
2014-05-10T01:02:54Z phadthai: Chosen: scheme programmers prefer recursion more than common lisp programmers in general, but you can still use it of course
2014-05-10T01:03:13Z jebes: chosen: Never talked to someone working with OCAML/Ml/Haskell/Erlang/<other functional programming>?
2014-05-10T01:03:30Z phadthai: the scheme standard mandates tail recursion optimization; although various CL implementations support that it's not a requirement
2014-05-10T01:03:35Z Chosen: never heard of those languages
2014-05-10T01:03:47Z DigitalRunes: everything I did in Haskell was completely recursive
2014-05-10T01:03:49Z phadthai: also, there are powerful widely used iteration forms like with LOOP
2014-05-10T01:04:03Z jebes: loop is amazing.
2014-05-10T01:04:08Z Chosen: I am using clozure common lisp to learn lisp. Trying to set up the best enivro and tools like SLIME while i learn.
2014-05-10T01:04:34Z Chosen: what is better? loop or recursion?
2014-05-10T01:04:37Z jebes: Oh, that reminds me, I had some code loop that i couldn't get to run, made a recursive version and it worked first time, I really want to know why the loop version wouldn't work
2014-05-10T01:04:41Z jebes: chosen: depends on the context
2014-05-10T01:05:01Z jebes: often loop is easier to read, but for recursive datastructures (such as lists) recursion is often a good choice
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2014-05-10T01:05:52Z phadthai: I agree with jebes, it depends if your problem requires recursion, or if expressing the algorithm is cleanest in recursive forms and efficient enough that way etc
2014-05-10T01:06:30Z Chosen: ty guys.
2014-05-10T01:06:50Z Chosen: do you hit thai pads like the thai boxers?
2014-05-10T01:07:01Z jebes: bwhahahahahaha
2014-05-10T01:07:23Z Chosen: i know karate.
2014-05-10T01:07:26Z phadthai: heh... off topic, but I'm not thai, and the martial arts I practiced were more chinese
2014-05-10T01:07:34Z jebes: chosen: if you want to really learn lisp/programming, I would recommend reading SICP, structure and interpretation of computer programs
2014-05-10T01:07:39Z Chosen: i am a yellow belt in karate. but i dont' practice anymore.
2014-05-10T01:07:42Z jebes: that is, if you know a bit of calculus
2014-05-10T01:08:08Z Chosen: i dont' know calculus!!! what should i read then?
2014-05-10T01:08:27Z Chosen: I just know how to make windows .bat files.
2014-05-10T01:08:46Z jebes: you really only need to know what derivative and an integral is... i didn't really know what they were that much when I started reading it (Still am... hehehe)
2014-05-10T01:08:57Z Chosen: I use emacs to write windows .bat files and put them in the windows scheduler. I am noob. :(
2014-05-10T01:09:02Z JuanDaugherty: 0.0
2014-05-10T01:09:10Z jebes: ^ my reaction too
2014-05-10T01:09:37Z phadthai: hmm a good introduction to both CL and programming is http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
2014-05-10T01:09:37Z Chosen: emacs an GNU product seems to handle Microsoft .bat files better than anything Microsoft has. Weird.
2014-05-10T01:09:37Z jebes: i know someone else that learned programming on windows batch files...
2014-05-10T01:10:36Z Chosen: oh. Thank you phadthai.  i will try that book!
2014-05-10T01:10:40Z Chosen: it's free!!!!!@
2014-05-10T01:10:53Z Chosen: omg ty
2014-05-10T01:10:58Z phadthai: yes a previous edition is free
2014-05-10T01:11:02Z jebes: there is also http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2014-05-10T01:11:16Z jebes: i don't know how it compares to the other
2014-05-10T01:11:18Z phadthai: Practical Common Lisp is also free, but it expects more programming background
2014-05-10T01:12:00Z phadthai: it's definitely recommended as well though
2014-05-10T01:12:04Z Chosen: hmm. i think i will go with the Gentle INtro then cuz i need it gentle.
2014-05-10T01:12:55Z phadthai: then another free one is http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisptext.html but that is more advanced
2014-05-10T01:13:11Z Chosen: advacnedd will kill me.
2014-05-10T01:13:25Z jebes: on lisp is a quite advanced book, but it is a good one
2014-05-10T01:13:34Z phadthai: it's also not really following the general common lisp programming guidelines
2014-05-10T01:13:45Z phadthai: but there are nice advanced concepts to learn in it
2014-05-10T01:14:00Z jebes: padthai: have you read let over lambda?
2014-05-10T01:14:08Z phadthai: not yet
2014-05-10T01:14:37Z Chosen: whoa i dont' even understand the title. sounds too advanced for me. let over lada
2014-05-10T01:14:40Z phadthai: there are various others I've not read also
2014-05-10T01:16:29Z Chosen: so i've installed slime and I can use it to type in lisp code. pretty neat. But People were talking  about slime like it was the 2cd coming of Christ. Nicer than .bat files but is there more stuff?
2014-05-10T01:16:57Z jebes: you will reach enlightment. For me it was working with hunchentoot, but you will soon see why it is so amazing.
2014-05-10T01:17:14Z Chosen: damn i wanna learn lisp so bad.
2014-05-10T01:17:22Z jebes: lisp isn't some magic language
2014-05-10T01:17:34Z jebes: you aren't going to magically understand all of programming
2014-05-10T01:17:57Z phadthai: Chosen: hmm it's off-topic here as it's using scheme rather than common lisp, but because it's a good introduction to computer science in general, I also recommend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure_and_Interpretation_of_Computer_Programs#External_links there also are video lecture recordings
2014-05-10T01:18:20Z phadthai: ah I now see jebes mentioned it already
2014-05-10T01:18:21Z Chosen: k. i will check out the scheme links.
2014-05-10T01:18:35Z Chosen: ooo. that one takes calculus. and mgiht be too hard for me
2014-05-10T01:18:45Z jebes: if you want to become an amazing programmer lisp can certainly help, but learning other languages is important too. Also understanding lambda calculus (don't be scared by the name) will help
2014-05-10T01:18:47Z JuanDaugherty: it's a joke, right?
2014-05-10T01:18:51Z JuanDaugherty: the calc thing
2014-05-10T01:18:54Z jebes: chosen: its not that hard of math
2014-05-10T01:19:06Z jebes: JuanDaugherty: there is some derivatives and integrals in it.
2014-05-10T01:19:18Z Chosen: can i use common lisp while i work through the Scheme book?
2014-05-10T01:19:25Z Chosen: would it work?
2014-05-10T01:19:36Z Chosen: cuz i wanna learn slime too
2014-05-10T01:19:40Z JuanDaugherty: i mean the bugging at calc
2014-05-10T01:19:48Z phadthai: slime supports some scheme implementations
2014-05-10T01:20:10Z phadthai: I'm not sure which without looking at its source though
2014-05-10T01:20:13Z jebes: not really, it can, but the two languages have some subtly differnt. it also lacks continuations so some of the later chapters wouldn't even be possible in CL...
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2014-05-10T01:20:27Z jebes: mit-scheme is supported iirc.
2014-05-10T01:21:06Z Chosen: hmmm. i could use slime and mit scheme. but still the book might be harder than Gentle INtro
2014-05-10T01:21:29Z phadthai: I'm not sure of the current state, but drscheme seemed to integrate a nice gui and editor for learning also
2014-05-10T01:21:42Z jebes: drscheme is now racket
2014-05-10T01:21:58Z phadthai: is racket backwards compatible enough for the course?
2014-05-10T01:22:04Z Chosen: but slime is the 2cd coming of Christ. is Dr. Scheme the 2cd coming of Christ too?
2014-05-10T01:22:06Z phadthai: (as it's another dialect if I remember)
2014-05-10T01:22:13Z jebes: i honestly do not know...
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2014-05-10T01:23:18Z phadthai: Chosen: commercial lisp implementations often have good IDEs as well
2014-05-10T01:23:28Z phadthai: some have free limited editions
2014-05-10T01:23:41Z Chosen: I wanna slime up. Like totally covered in slime from the slime logo. Going full on, no turning back.
2014-05-10T01:23:47Z phadthai: emacs+slime is what I use myself though, with a free CL implementation
2014-05-10T01:23:58Z jebes: sbcl <3
2014-05-10T01:24:02Z Chosen: i don't know what i can do in slime yet other than type in lisp code but i need to find otu cuz it sounds like magic.
2014-05-10T01:24:42Z jebes: chosen: really the 2nd coming of christ part is coming more from the interactive nature of lisp. Slime just helps the interactivity.
2014-05-10T01:24:43Z kcj quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2014-05-10T01:25:21Z phadthai: http://xkcd.com/224/
2014-05-10T01:26:29Z DigitalRunes: functional languages seem kinda like magic when you're first starting out
2014-05-10T01:26:44Z Chosen: that's the kind of thing i want to see is what phadthais comic has! i want to see the slime!
2014-05-10T01:27:12Z Chosen: or the lisp or whatever that stuff is. I guess i should start reading Gentle Intro now.
2014-05-10T01:27:12Z jebes: you have to crawl before you can walk, and then run.
2014-05-10T01:27:50Z DigitalRunes: does lisp have a concept of monads?
2014-05-10T01:28:06Z Chosen: k. I will do it. I"m going all the way. People told me .bat files aren't good. I used them to move fiels and stuff. Now I am going full on with the most advanced SLIME and Lisp.
2014-05-10T01:28:16Z jebes: I don't think it does, since it isn't lazy and it isn't purely functional.
2014-05-10T01:28:36Z DigitalRunes: interesting
2014-05-10T01:28:47Z jebes: don't quote me on that, though
2014-05-10T01:29:13Z phadthai: right, you can create monadic libraries, but it's a multiparadigm language, not purely functional, with no clear separation other than what the programmers provide
2014-05-10T01:29:26Z Chosen: quote jebes: id ont' think it does, sicne it tins't lazy and it isnt purely fucntional
2014-05-10T01:29:40Z DigitalRunes: makes sense
2014-05-10T01:30:18Z Chosen: Man i need to start reading gentle intro. I have no idea what is goign on right now.
2014-05-10T01:30:35Z phadthai: likewise, you can implement lazy streams etc, but the common lisp language doesn't provide those... there is support for enough reflexion to allow implementing such though
2014-05-10T01:30:47Z jebes: if you have any questions don't be afraid to ask
2014-05-10T01:31:15Z DigitalRunes: that's good
2014-05-10T01:31:20Z DigitalRunes: there's an option then
2014-05-10T01:31:21Z Chosen: ty jebes!!! I will become the best Slime and lisp user in the world. Just gotta read Gentle intro first. Then i will try the scheme book
2014-05-10T01:31:46Z phadthai: have fun :) bbl
2014-05-10T01:32:00Z Chosen: wait! what's a monad?
2014-05-10T01:32:02Z DigitalRunes: im mostly used to purely functional languages, so it's interesting to see these other paradigms
2014-05-10T01:32:11Z jebes: Chosen: don'
2014-05-10T01:32:19Z jebes: don't worry about it*
2014-05-10T01:32:25Z Chosen: k.
2014-05-10T01:33:15Z Chosen: k. I'm gonna start reading gentle intro now. bye
2014-05-10T01:33:31Z Chosen: man i am so ready to see what slime is capable of
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2014-05-10T02:04:00Z gendl: Fare: ‘twasn’t no thang. Just pressed a couple buttons.
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2014-05-10T02:10:18Z Fare: Oh yes, please press my buttons!
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2014-05-10T02:37:24Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-05-10T02:37:38Z Viaken: G'morning!
2014-05-10T02:37:44Z Viaken: How are you, beach?
2014-05-10T02:37:46Z jebes: morning!
2014-05-10T02:38:01Z beach: Viaken: Fine thanks.  You?
2014-05-10T02:38:11Z Viaken: Pretty good. What brings you in?
2014-05-10T02:38:23Z beach: Old habit.
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2014-05-10T02:39:15Z Viaken: <.< I totally thought I was in a different channel.
2014-05-10T02:39:31Z beach: Oh, that explains it! :)
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2014-05-10T02:39:55Z Viaken: .fr in my tiny hangout would be newsworthy.
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2014-05-10T02:40:39Z beach: nyef: Around?
2014-05-10T02:40:46Z nyef: T
2014-05-10T02:41:26Z beach: nyef: I think the answer to your question is that it would be hard to implement my dispatch method for SBCL without basically changing the layout of most objects.
2014-05-10T02:42:17Z nyef: Mmm. Far too involved for me to even consider attempting. /-:
2014-05-10T02:42:36Z beach: Yeah, probably not worth the effort.
2014-05-10T02:43:16Z beach: It *might* be possible to do it gradually, but I seriously doubt that SBCL maintainers would find it a good thing to do.
2014-05-10T02:44:31Z beach: ... which is what I feared way back, and so I decided not to work on an existing implementation, and instead start a new one.
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2014-05-10T02:47:04Z nyef: I have a hard enough time with the compiler, I don't even want to LOOK AT the PCL stuff.
2014-05-10T02:47:25Z beach: Totally understandable.
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2014-05-10T02:51:34Z brucem: nyef: Does anyone fully understand the PCL impl these days?
2014-05-10T02:51:55Z nyef: I have no idea, though I would suspect not.
2014-05-10T02:52:39Z Bike: the last pcl-internals-y thing i remember was, what, crhodes i think, that precaching bit
2014-05-10T02:53:40Z beach: Yes, Krystof is actively working on PCL.
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2014-05-10T02:55:14Z Fare: beach: what's your dispatch method?
2014-05-10T02:55:40Z beach: Fare: http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf
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2014-05-10T03:18:23Z beach: OK, another partially-finished paper, this time for people who like garbage collection: http://metamodular.com/sliding-gc.pdf
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2014-05-10T03:26:07Z nyef: beach: Downloaded. I'll take a look at it this weekend, but not tonight, as I'm about to crash.
2014-05-10T03:26:24Z beach: nyef: Sure.
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2014-05-10T03:30:43Z jebes: (get-post-by-id '(0 1 nil))
2014-05-10T03:30:49Z jebes: oops, that's not my reply
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2014-05-10T03:33:29Z brucem: beach: you might run that by one of the Ravenbrook people. (I could send a mention of it to their internal MPS staff list if you want.)
2014-05-10T03:33:42Z brucem: beach: but they're busy, so I don't know that you'd hear anything back :)
2014-05-10T03:33:54Z brucem: (busy with work and other things like sailing)
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2014-05-10T03:40:10Z jimbow: does anyone have land of lisp?
2014-05-10T03:40:15Z jimbow: the book i mean
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2014-05-10T04:00:31Z beach: brucem: I intend to submit it to a conference.  I assume they have competent people to review it.
2014-05-10T04:01:30Z beach: jimbow: If you have a question about it, just ask.
2014-05-10T04:01:55Z jimbow: well it's a book cover
2014-05-10T04:02:10Z jimbow: and i love the book cover so much that i want to make my business cards out of the same material
2014-05-10T04:02:32Z beach: Good to know.
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2014-05-10T04:06:58Z brucem: beach: then I won't forward it.
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2014-05-10T04:07:17Z beach: brucem: Yeah, I don't think it's necessary.  But thanks anyway.
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2014-05-10T04:11:12Z Viaken: Do I remember a bot in here that can evaluate?
2014-05-10T04:11:49Z beach: No such bot.
2014-05-10T04:12:12Z Viaken shrugs
2014-05-10T04:13:15Z jimbow: so beach can i find out what the book cover is made of?
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2014-05-10T04:13:44Z beach: jimbow: Oh, is *that* your question.  I have no idea.
2014-05-10T04:13:52Z jimbow: lol
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2014-05-10T04:15:13Z beach: You probably need to contact the author or the publishing house.
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2014-05-10T04:18:56Z theos: o/
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2014-05-10T04:31:06Z jimbow: theos: heil hitler!
2014-05-10T04:31:29Z theos: erm
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2014-05-10T07:16:29Z monod: Hello!
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2014-05-10T07:17:17Z monod: What does it mean "the first programmable programming language"?
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2014-05-10T07:18:09Z hitecnologys: monod: well, it means what it means: the first programmable language.
2014-05-10T07:18:13Z p_l: the thing in topic?
2014-05-10T07:18:23Z hitecnologys: AH.
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2014-05-10T07:18:43Z monod: What does it mean to program a programming language? To change the meaning of its keywords?
2014-05-10T07:18:45Z hitecnologys: monod: #1=(foo . #1#) is a syntax for defining corcular lists.
2014-05-10T07:18:47Z p_l: the thing in topic is an infinite sequence of "programmable programmable..." followed by programming language
2014-05-10T07:19:03Z monod: Haha
2014-05-10T07:19:35Z p_l: monod: it refers to flexibility and malleability of language. Lisp was first language to go in that direction, afaik (doesn't mean there are no others)
2014-05-10T07:19:55Z monod: And do you know of any others now?
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2014-05-10T07:20:46Z joga: forth I guess
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2014-05-10T07:21:17Z p_l: monod: outside of various lisps, I suspect at least some stuff related to Smalltalk fits. Forth and Factor. Maybe more
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2014-05-10T07:25:34Z monod: Haskell too maybe?
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2014-05-10T07:30:25Z p_l: Haskell... comes from opposite direction, I think
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2014-05-10T08:16:28Z attila_lendvai: are the old (pre-server-reinstall) mailman passwords supposed to work on common-lisp.net?
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2014-05-10T09:24:16Z H4ns: attila_lendvai: no.  send email if you want me to reset any passwords for you
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2014-05-10T10:22:30Z quazi: so im stuck, i have learnt how to change the working dir of my image while its active, but i cant find any way to cd into a dir on the underlying posix terminal, then exit (as a shell script may do)
2014-05-10T10:23:06Z attila_lendvai: H4ns: cheers!
2014-05-10T10:23:17Z Odin-: quazi: Why are you trying to do that?
2014-05-10T10:23:18Z quazi: such that $ my-lispy-script will cd into /all/the/place
2014-05-10T10:23:37Z H4ns: quazi: a shell script can't do that either, unless you source it
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2014-05-10T10:23:41Z JuanDaugherty: quazi, you can't just 'quit'?
2014-05-10T10:23:58Z H4ns: quazi: the working directory is a property of each process, not of a "session" or whatever you may think.
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2014-05-10T10:24:10Z JuanDaugherty: or did you mean return to the previous context's directory?
2014-05-10T10:24:16Z H4ns: attila_lendvai: sure thing :)
2014-05-10T10:24:47Z quazi: so its undoable
2014-05-10T10:25:11Z H4ns: quazi: not entirely, but it is relatively inconvenient.
2014-05-10T10:25:29Z H4ns: quazi: you can have your lisp program print something that your shell process evaluates
2014-05-10T10:26:00Z Odin-: quazi: But why do you want the script to leave you in a different working directory?
2014-05-10T10:26:42Z quazi: Odin-, the program does a search and takea you into tje dir you select
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2014-05-10T10:28:04Z quazi: H4ns, where should i start to accomplish that?
2014-05-10T10:29:16Z Odin-: You'd need to tell the shell to evaluate the output of your program on each run, I believe.
2014-05-10T10:30:03Z H4ns: quazi: you need to learn about eval in the shell, that is pretty much it
2014-05-10T10:31:10Z quazi: oh ok so i return some path from my script and then wrap it in a shell script?
2014-05-10T10:32:14Z H4ns: no, you define a shell alias that evaluates the output of your lisp program
2014-05-10T10:32:15Z quazi: i guess i can use that to technique to run the sbcl image in its own process but the cd in the same process
2014-05-10T10:32:56Z quazi: H4ns,  yeah i guess that could work too
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2014-05-10T10:36:08Z quazi: is it possible (even if not really sane) to somehow get a reference to the initial shell process and message it to cd somewhere?
2014-05-10T10:36:23Z H4ns: quazi: no
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2014-05-10T10:36:56Z H4ns: quazi: of course, with you being a programmer, anything is "possible".
2014-05-10T10:38:25Z loke_erc: quazi: What operating system>
2014-05-10T10:38:26Z loke_erc: ?
2014-05-10T10:38:37Z quazi: linux
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2014-05-10T10:39:07Z loke_erc: quazi: There is no "easy" way to do this. I can think of a few complicated ways of doing that though.
2014-05-10T10:40:07Z H4ns: yeah, you could change the working directory of the process by mapping /dev/kmem, finding the process header and re-pointing the cwd.
2014-05-10T10:40:13Z quazi: i just want 'correct' or at least the least 'worse' way but as H4ns  has showed i think an alias may be the best way
2014-05-10T10:41:02Z loke_erc: I like H4ns suggestion. The true hacker way
2014-05-10T10:41:35Z loke_erc: In the good old days (50's, 60's?) that was the only way to program
2014-05-10T10:42:10Z loke_erc: (or on the micros of the 80's)
2014-05-10T10:43:00Z quazi: lol
2014-05-10T10:43:11Z quazi: that sounds horrifying
2014-05-10T10:44:13Z loke_erc: quazi: You'd love the book "Apollo Guidance Computer, Architecture and Operation"
2014-05-10T10:44:24Z loke_erc: You'll gain a better appreciation for the programmers of the time.
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2014-05-10T10:44:59Z quazi: also am i the only one who finds the function names and args in common lisps std package to be .... very unintuitive
2014-05-10T10:45:20Z loke_erc: quazi: You are probably the only one
2014-05-10T10:45:29Z loke_erc: Which one do you have a problem with?
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2014-05-10T10:52:29Z quazi: oh i just constantly get lost, probably because i am a ruby guy. any data type.to_s gives me its string representation, while for a path id use namestring in cl... not complaining just a bit outa my depth :)
2014-05-10T10:53:00Z quazi: or print-to-string?
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2014-05-10T11:03:16Z JuanDaugherty: quazi: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCgQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dg0Pxj5FUHKk&ei=ZAduU9riBIesyAT4y4GwAg&usg=AFQjCNFiYTVvONxnLVH6hRhUGLEKzxWYYQ&sig2=-fPEKirKaE1KN1F00chbQQ
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2014-05-10T11:13:04Z oleo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142473
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2014-05-10T11:19:02Z loke_erc: re
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2014-05-10T11:33:44Z oleo: morning
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2014-05-10T12:17:36Z leo2007: can after method modify the return value?
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2014-05-10T12:18:12Z H4ns: leo2007: how would it get to the value in the first place?
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2014-05-10T12:20:32Z leo2007: sorry I am not using any clos yet but I need to customise print-object for double-floats.
2014-05-10T12:20:51Z leo2007: H4ns: I was hoping the :after method can be like emacs's after advice.
2014-05-10T12:21:41Z H4ns: leo2007: no.  you can use an around method, but I'm not sure whether overriding methods for system-defined classes is defined to be working.
2014-05-10T12:22:51Z leo2007: H4ns: it is conditional.
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2014-05-10T12:29:21Z _death: maybe you want set-pprint-dispatch
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2014-05-10T12:55:02Z leo2007: I am trying to get swank to pass back double floats to emacs and it seems it is not easy to do.
2014-05-10T12:55:45Z nyef: As in... use a binary representation?
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2014-05-10T12:57:30Z leo2007: nyef: how do you mean? doesn't swank already encode the sexp?
2014-05-10T12:58:03Z nyef: I was more thinking the CPU-native binary representation of the double-float.
2014-05-10T12:58:27Z nyef: Which is a frightening thing to do, partly because it's something that can vary on a per-CPU-architecture basis.
2014-05-10T12:59:22Z leo2007: I see. No that is not what I have in mind. it would be nice if the double float can be written using E instead of D when passing back to emacs.
2014-05-10T12:59:36Z leo2007: then it will automatically read it correctly.
2014-05-10T12:59:44Z nyef: Ah.
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2014-05-10T13:00:29Z nyef: Well, the cheap-hack version is to print it normally to a string, then find and hack up the exponent marker.
2014-05-10T13:00:58Z leo2007: nyef: it seems that will fail if the floats are in a list
2014-05-10T13:01:53Z nyef: Yes, I meant in the pprint-dispatch table, which should work well enough as long as nobody overrides it again.
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2014-05-10T13:03:37Z leo2007: yes, that could work but then I need to enable pprint for all objects. any idea why *print-pretty* is bound to nil in swank-rpc::prin1-to-string-for-emacs
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2014-05-10T13:04:13Z nyef: That I can't help you with.
2014-05-10T13:04:40Z _death: princ - for humans, prin1 - for readers
2014-05-10T13:04:47Z leo2007: can print-object have effect on prin1?
2014-05-10T13:06:07Z pjb: Of course.
2014-05-10T13:06:13Z pjb: See *print-readably*
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2014-05-10T13:07:16Z pjb: leo2007: *print-pretty* t is not a good idea when you're implementing a RPC. (including, eg. data file formats).
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2014-05-10T13:08:15Z leo2007: pjb: thanks. how would you solve the problem of passing double-floats from lisp to emacs in swank?
2014-05-10T13:08:17Z pjb: leo2007: you cannot customize print-object for double-float or any other builtin type, or even standard standard-object
2014-05-10T13:08:36Z pjb: You can customize print-object ONLY on the classes and structures you define yourself.
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2014-05-10T13:09:38Z pjb: Not lisp printing engine.
2014-05-10T13:09:41Z pjb: +using
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2014-05-10T13:14:55Z leo2007: so I probably need an intermediate format that both ends can easily parse.
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2014-05-10T13:16:38Z pjb: leo2007: yes.
2014-05-10T13:17:06Z pjb: leo2007: check integer-decode-float
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2014-05-10T13:21:04Z stassats: leo2007: all you need to do is to convert all floats to double float in swank-rpc::prin1-to-string-for-emacs, and set *read-default-float-format* to 'double-float
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2014-05-10T13:24:30Z leo2007: stassats: how could that solve the problem if floats are in a list?
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2014-05-10T13:25:55Z stassats: straightforwardly
2014-05-10T13:26:29Z pjb: leo2007: I don't understand what you mean by "I am trying to get swank to pass back double floats to emacs and it seems it is not easy to do."
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2014-05-10T13:26:39Z pjb: leo2007: there are no single-float or double-float in emacs lisp!
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2014-05-10T13:26:45Z stassats: there are
2014-05-10T13:26:52Z pjb: How do you write them?
2014-05-10T13:27:16Z leo2007: stassats: emacs double floats share the syntax cl's single-float.
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2014-05-10T13:27:34Z stassats: leo2007: they don't share, in reality
2014-05-10T13:27:49Z pjb: 3.0d3  --> Debugger entered--Lisp error: (void-variable 3\.0d3)
2014-05-10T13:27:53Z stassats: pjb: http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Float-Basics.html
2014-05-10T13:28:38Z pjb: So this is exactly what I wrote: there are no single-float or double-float in emacs lisp!
2014-05-10T13:28:40Z jdz: leo2007: just out of curiosity, why do you need double-floats, anyway?
2014-05-10T13:28:46Z pjb: Only floats.
2014-05-10T13:28:46Z stassats: pjb: there are
2014-05-10T13:28:56Z pjb: stassats: you're sbcl centric!
2014-05-10T13:28:57Z stassats: pjb: those are double floats
2014-05-10T13:29:07Z pjb: a double-float is not necessarily a 64-bit IEEE float.
2014-05-10T13:29:24Z jdz: haha
2014-05-10T13:29:29Z jdz: where's my popcorn?
2014-05-10T13:29:29Z pjb: Further, the CL syntax for double float involves a D and this is not understood by emacs lisp.
2014-05-10T13:29:31Z leo2007: jdz: I want to pass results of some computation from lisp to emacs and single-float loses the precision.
2014-05-10T13:29:37Z p_l: actually, double-float sounds similar to double-double, unlike double-precision float :)
2014-05-10T13:29:43Z pjb: There is definitely no cl:single-float or cl:double-float in emacs.
2014-05-10T13:30:07Z stassats: that's why leo2007 is asking his question, but no, it's better to be pedantically dense
2014-05-10T13:30:22Z pjb: leo2007: I don't understand what you mean by: "jdz: I want to pass results of some computation from lisp to emacs and single-float loses the precision."
2014-05-10T13:30:27Z pjb: Can you precise your thoughts?
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2014-05-10T13:31:13Z jdz: pjb: "precise" is an adjective, not a verb
2014-05-10T13:31:30Z H4ns: jdz: it does not matter, it is the others who need to be precise.
2014-05-10T13:31:32Z leo2007: precision.
2014-05-10T13:31:48Z H4ns: jdz: also, it is all about learning and teaching, which is something that pjb does very very well
2014-05-10T13:32:14Z pjb: leo2007: when you type (+ 1.1d1 2.2d2) in slime REPL, CL sends back to emacs 231.0D0, so it already do what you want!
2014-05-10T13:32:20Z H4ns: pjb: please repeat something that you have said before to help me learn better.
2014-05-10T13:32:26Z stassats: pprint-dispatch doesn't work, because prin1-to-string-for-emacs sets *print-pretty* to nil, so, my solution from earlier in the morning still stands
2014-05-10T13:32:41Z stassats: recursively switch all floats to double, *read-default-float-format* to 'double-float
2014-05-10T13:32:41Z leo2007: pjb: yes, I need the values for elisp.
2014-05-10T13:32:44Z pjb: H4ns: ASCII control codes are not characters.
2014-05-10T13:32:55Z stassats: couldn't be any easier
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2014-05-10T13:33:46Z H4ns: wwlna
2014-05-10T13:33:47Z pjb: leo2007: elisp has only float type which is a 64-bit ieee floating point value.  So if you format your double-float in the syntax taken by emacs lisp you will be able to read your values without loss of precision.
2014-05-10T13:34:07Z jdz: leo2007: just for the record, if the lisp implemantation double-float has more precision than the emacs lisp one, you'd still lose precision.
2014-05-10T13:34:40Z jdz: leo2007: and since you're using floats anyway, the precision argument is quite weak, anyway
2014-05-10T13:35:16Z jdz: leo2007: especially if you don't convert the intermediate results, but only the end result of the calculation
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2014-05-10T13:36:31Z jdz: leo2007: i'm just trying to see if you're completely sure you're really solving a problem
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2014-05-10T13:37:12Z pjb: Since common lisp is better at numbers, why would you want to send numeric values back to emacs lisp?
2014-05-10T13:37:19Z pjb: Just send results as strings.
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2014-05-10T13:39:32Z leo2007: pjb: yes, you are right. I am just checking if possible to use lisp as ffi for elisp via swank, for example using expm1 in elisp
2014-05-10T13:40:50Z leo2007: jdz: this is just for fun, using cl to extend emacs.
2014-05-10T13:41:28Z jdz: leo2007: i see. you should try to listen to stassats then.
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2014-05-10T13:41:39Z leo2007: pjb: if you send a string back, elisp still has to parse it.
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2014-05-10T13:44:09Z pjb: leo2007: the point is that not all CL values are representable with emacs lisp data types.
2014-05-10T13:44:31Z pjb: leo2007: perhaps you should do something like CLAUDE :-)
2014-05-10T13:44:54Z stassats: while you were quarreling, i committed a change to swank-rpc::prin1-to-string-for-emacs that switches floats to double-floats, including inside lists
2014-05-10T13:45:26Z stassats: don't tell me you need vectors too, since vectors have a different syntax too
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2014-05-10T13:46:06Z pjb: leo2007: you can do bi-directional RPC between emacs lisp and swank, but you shoud send to emacs, an emacs lisp form, that only contains emacs lisp data, and vice versa, you should send to cl a cl form that contains only cl data.
2014-05-10T13:46:10Z leo2007: pjb: one way to do this is to encode the literal values in CL in a sexp before sending back to emacs. elisp can then eval to uncover the value.
2014-05-10T13:46:55Z pjb: Common Lisp is more powerful, it's easier to build an emacs lisp sexp in CL than to parse a CL sexp in emacs lisp to convert it there.
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2014-05-10T13:48:51Z jebes: is the only way to get defmethod behavoir in macros is to make a macro writing macro, or would one use a macro-let in a method?
2014-05-10T13:49:06Z pjb: What is defmethod behavior?
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2014-05-10T13:49:50Z pjb: The behavior of defmethod is to define a method.  Do you want to write a macro to define a method?
2014-05-10T13:49:54Z leo2007: but the point is eamcs cannot get the value of some rpc's.
2014-05-10T13:50:05Z pjb: leo2007: exactly!
2014-05-10T13:50:28Z pjb: leo2007: eg. in clisp, long-floats can have thousands of digits of precision!
2014-05-10T13:50:50Z jebes: i can have two classes, say post and reply, I can have a generic method make-reply which then specializes on post and reply.
2014-05-10T13:50:56Z jebes: so I should have said method specialization
2014-05-10T13:51:09Z pjb: There's no generic method.
2014-05-10T13:51:14Z pjb: Do you want a generic function or a method?
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2014-05-10T13:51:24Z pjb: ok.
2014-05-10T13:51:30Z jebes: excuse me, generic function
2014-05-10T13:52:59Z pjb: So what do you want a macro for?
2014-05-10T13:54:10Z leo2007: pjb: certainly we cannot map all CL types to elisp but double floats are supported so it is natural to ask if the swank rpc can preserve that.
2014-05-10T13:54:26Z pjb: It can if you send the right string to emacs.
2014-05-10T13:54:58Z jebes: i need a generic function (make-reply) that creates a class when provided with another specific class. Without defining a bunch of similair methods, I thought that macros would be a good solution to it.
2014-05-10T13:55:21Z leo2007: exactly that is what people have been suggesting, pprint dispatch etc.
2014-05-10T13:55:43Z pjb: leo2007: (substitute #\e #\D (format nil "~e" (+ 1.1d1 2.2d2)))
2014-05-10T13:56:32Z jebes: the problem is that each class may have more slots than another
2014-05-10T13:56:49Z pjb: in CL, printing readably is only specified within the same lisp image!  You cannot expect to use meaningfully print on one implementation and read on another.  Let alone to another language!
2014-05-10T13:57:41Z leo2007: pjb: thus it is not easy.
2014-05-10T13:57:41Z pjb: jebes: yes, if you need to create classes, you can write a macro, but if you want to create them at run-time, you should use a function.
2014-05-10T13:58:00Z pjb: leo2007: how not easy?  It just took me two function calls!
2014-05-10T13:58:45Z jebes: pjb: I wanted to generate the functions to generate the classes. I think i have a mildly working solution right now, will probably refactor later
2014-05-10T13:58:57Z pjb: Sounds good.
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2014-05-10T14:06:21Z leo2007: pjb: to make this work for all types that we want to uncover from the emacs side, we need to define printing for other data types
2014-05-10T14:06:43Z pjb: Don't build a FFI over "printing"!
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2014-05-10T14:26:56Z leo2007: stassats: what you suggest is the thorough i.e. make prin1-to-string-for-emacs actually print for emacs.
2014-05-10T14:27:37Z stassats: prin1-to-string-for-emacs already handles double-floats, if that's all you need
2014-05-10T14:28:04Z leo2007: stassats: it prints double floats in a way that cannot be read back by emacs's reader.
2014-05-10T14:28:16Z stassats: nope
2014-05-10T14:28:29Z leo2007: ?
2014-05-10T14:29:08Z jdz: leo2007: just read the log
2014-05-10T14:29:21Z leo2007: stassats: I saw it now. thanks for the commit.
2014-05-10T14:29:50Z stassats: for more types, setting *print-pretty* to t shouldn't affect things, then pprint-dispatch
2014-05-10T14:30:03Z stassats: to print characters and vectors
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2014-05-10T14:35:28Z leo2007: but this cannot be done without modifying swank-rpc
2014-05-10T14:35:55Z stassats: so what?
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2014-05-10T15:20:44Z Xach: stassats: the quicklisp error that vexed you is now continuable
2014-05-10T15:21:02Z stassats: yay
2014-05-10T15:22:06Z leo2007: stassats: didn't know that *read-default-float-format* changes prin1-to-string.
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2014-05-10T15:24:47Z leo2007: stassats: in (slime-eval sexp) what to do so that when sexp is read CL is current package? I am getting tired of prefixing.
2014-05-10T15:25:13Z stassats: nothing
2014-05-10T15:26:46Z leo2007: for example (slime-eval '(* 2 2))
2014-05-10T15:26:49Z leo2007: fails
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2014-05-10T15:26:59Z stassats: sure, nothing to be done
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2014-05-10T15:28:01Z leo2007: ok
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2014-05-10T16:48:39Z krrrcks: I always used Slime/Swank for remote access via SSH. Is there a way to connect without SSH just from machine to machine?
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2014-05-10T16:49:43Z Xach: krrrcks: not built-in
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2014-05-10T16:51:38Z stassats: built-in, not safe
2014-05-10T16:52:33Z stassats: krrrcks: (setf swank::*loopback-interface* "0.0.0.0")
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2014-05-10T17:15:49Z krrrcks: stassats: Xach: Thanks! :-)
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2014-05-10T17:32:17Z krrrcks: stassats: works. thanks. :)
2014-05-10T17:32:29Z krrrcks: stassats: only for testing purposes. :)
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2014-05-10T17:36:11Z slyrus: any exciting reports from ELS?
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2014-05-10T18:54:57Z msmith: hi all.  Say I have a restart and I want to execute to forms, one after the other inside of the restart, how can I accomplish this?  for instance, I have a restart that prints a string and then closes a socket connection, but the first for is not executed, even with both being inside a progn.
2014-05-10T18:55:08Z msmith: to/two/s
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2014-05-10T18:56:02Z nyef: At a guess, both forms are executing, but you neglected to flush your output buffer.
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2014-05-10T19:01:05Z msmith: nyef:  but I would think that it shouldn't matter as the msg should be printed first.  If the code to close the socket is removed, it is printed without issue.
2014-05-10T19:01:55Z nyef: Is it printed to the socket?
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2014-05-10T19:04:26Z msmith: nyef: http://paste.lisp.org/+31XS
2014-05-10T19:04:26Z pjb: msmith: (with-simple-restart (the-restart-you-have "The restart you have" (first form) (second form) (one) (after) (another)) (do-something))
2014-05-10T19:04:35Z msmith: nyef: yes
2014-05-10T19:05:02Z pjb: Oops, no, this is wrong.
2014-05-10T19:05:17Z nyef: You're expecting FORMAT NIL to have a side-effect?
2014-05-10T19:06:47Z msmith: nyef: well I guess it wouldn't because it wouldn't be returned to anything
2014-05-10T19:07:10Z ggole: I've made that mistake.
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2014-05-10T19:07:25Z ggole: Wonder if it would have been better (format 'string ...)
2014-05-10T19:07:29Z pjb: msmith: I meant: (restart-case (do-something) ((the-restart-you-have () :report "the restart you have" (first form) (second form) (one) (after) (another))))
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2014-05-10T19:15:36Z msmith: I think I know what I'm doing wrong.  I'm expecting the first form to be returned from where the handler-bind is called but of course that will not be the case so while the first form is executed, it is not printed to the socket.
2014-05-10T19:16:35Z nyef: Have a look at PROG1 (PROG2 is specified to do the same, but nobody actually implements it that way).
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2014-05-10T19:23:15Z White_Flame: nyef:  What's the difference between the spec and implementations for prog2?
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2014-05-10T19:24:10Z pjb: The spec is: (defmacro prog2 (one two &body body) (let ((vresult (gensym))) `(progn ,one (let ((,vresult ,two)) ,@body ,vresult))))
2014-05-10T19:24:20Z pjb: err, this is the implementation.
2014-05-10T19:24:41Z nyef: clhs prog2
2014-05-10T19:24:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_prog1c.htm
2014-05-10T19:24:44Z pjb: The spec is: (defmacro prog2 (one two &body body) (let ((vresult (gensym))) `(let ((,vresult ,one)) ,two ,@body ,vresult)))
2014-05-10T19:24:54Z nyef: Read carefully and you might see why nobody follows that part of the spec.
2014-05-10T19:25:42Z White_Flame: oh, yeah my mind substituted "second-form" for "first-form" because that seemed obvious
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2014-05-10T19:25:59Z pjb: Yes, everybody's mind doing that.
2014-05-10T19:26:04Z White_Flame: what's the use case fort he spec's prog2 then?
2014-05-10T19:26:10Z Bike: a typo
2014-05-10T19:26:21Z nyef: The use case? It's a bug in the editor's wetware!
2014-05-10T19:26:59Z pjb: I guess the use case is to detect if the implementor is an idiot or not :-)
2014-05-10T19:27:01Z nyef: As pjb said, *EVERYBODY'S* mind does that.
2014-05-10T19:27:05Z White_Flame: wow, and due to the standardization process, the text shall not be modified?
2014-05-10T19:27:20Z pjb: We don't have the budget to modify it :-)
2014-05-10T19:27:24Z Bike: it's not the only mistake in the spec, it's just really obvious
2014-05-10T19:27:42Z nyef: Actually, IIUC, the text isn't the standard, the text is a DESCRIPTION of the standard.
2014-05-10T19:28:24Z White_Flame: so the text is incorrect, but the standard of returning the valuation of second-form is correct? ;)
2014-05-10T19:28:42Z pjb: Yes, prog2 returns the result of the second form.
2014-05-10T19:28:43Z oGMo: nyef: the note at the bottom also contradicts the clear typo
2014-05-10T19:29:01Z nyef: You'd have to check the actual voting record and the text of the '84 standard.
2014-05-10T19:29:03Z oGMo: but, yes, mistakes abound heh
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2014-05-10T20:54:26Z drewc looks at the date .... one month and 10 days past the PROG2 fools day ....
2014-05-10T20:54:37Z p_l: ?
2014-05-10T20:54:46Z p_l: why prog2 fools day? :)
2014-05-10T20:56:53Z oleo: lol
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2014-05-10T21:01:07Z drewc: p_l: somewhere, at sometime. someone .... heh : http://ww.telent.net/2005/4/
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2014-05-10T21:02:18Z drewc: "** Many bug fixes  [(terpri)] - <b>PROG2 returns the primary value of its first argument, as per ANSI</b>
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2014-05-10T21:03:33Z drewc is now showing at least how long he has been a Lispnik for :P
2014-05-10T21:04:28Z nyef: I'll confirm here and now that the '84 standard defines PROG2 to return the value of the second argument.
2014-05-10T21:04:29Z p_l: lol
2014-05-10T21:04:44Z Odin-: 84?
2014-05-10T21:04:48Z drewc: but notice the date on that post, and the "A total of one person spotted this and thought it unusual enough to ask about. Next year our April Fool will be less subtle, I promise." post-fix :)
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2014-05-10T21:05:12Z nyef: Odin-: The original COMMON LISP standard was in '84. The ANSI standard is from '94.
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2014-05-10T21:05:43Z Odin-: nyef: That's what I figured. I asked because the reference was explicitly to ANSI... :p
2014-05-10T21:06:23Z nyef: Sure, but I figured I'd check to see if the issue was inherited from the original spec, or introduced during the ANSI process.
2014-05-10T21:06:47Z drewc: nyef: you mean CLtL1 as the 'original spec', yeah?
2014-05-10T21:07:15Z nyef: Of course. As it IS the original common lisp specification.
2014-05-10T21:07:21Z p_l: and is from 1984
2014-05-10T21:07:32Z drewc is thinking of the 1984 books that he owns ... and really hopes that is it and not Orwell! 
2014-05-10T21:07:43Z Odin-: Informal specifications are still specifications, right?
2014-05-10T21:08:06Z nyef: CLtL is a formal spec.
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2014-05-10T21:08:29Z drewc: Odin-: yes, hence why I host the modern version of the informal CL spec! :)
2014-05-10T21:08:39Z Odin-: :p
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2014-05-10T21:09:46Z drewc: http://www.cliki.net/Proposed%20Extensions%20To%20ANSI <--- that may count :)
2014-05-10T21:09:49Z Odin-: By "informal" I mean "not issued by an official body". I believe CLtL (and not only the second edition) was officially a single author's work. Am I mistaken?
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2014-05-10T21:10:02Z drewc: his body is fake?
2014-05-10T21:10:38Z Odin-: drewc: Equivocation is always good as a source of humour. :)
2014-05-10T21:10:50Z drewc: or the gov't defining a corpus makes the body real? :)
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2014-05-10T21:11:52Z drewc is a certain pole on the political compass ... hope is it not obvious which one! :P
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2014-05-10T21:12:16Z Odin-: I don't mean "government-sanctioned". I mean "persistent organisation whose purpose is to produce specifications".
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2014-05-10T21:13:23Z drewc: what does the A an ANSI stand for ... therein lies my confusion! ... I will be silent now ...
2014-05-10T21:14:17Z Odin-: drewc: ANSI is government-sanctioned, sure. But I'd also call IETF an official body.
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2014-05-10T21:16:34Z drewc: Odin-: the Internet Society is like the UN when it comes to sanctioning ... it is a union of nation's working groups
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2014-05-10T21:17:16Z drewc: and of course, where is it based headquarter-wise?
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2014-05-10T21:20:40Z Odin-: drewc: If you're arguing that IETF is an intergovernmental organisation, which is not significantly less dependent on the state apparatus than the national standards committees, I'm really not going to bother. :p
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2014-05-10T21:23:07Z drewc: Odin-: I happen to be a supporter of the MeshNet, and use CJDNS, and believe that the Internet is a ... well.... no comment that could and will be logged ... 'snow' falls in my 'den'.
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2014-05-10T21:24:47Z drewc now mumbles about his heartbleed and how he is all for libre over open ... to try and (not) change the topic :D
2014-05-10T21:25:07Z nyef: ... LibreBSD?
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2014-05-10T21:26:40Z drewc: nyef: http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20140509092303&mode=expanded&count=0 <--- how about a properly encrypted and not at all Open (to all) SSL :)
2014-05-10T21:27:37Z nyef: ... Hrm. I *HAVE* an IRIX box. I'd better make sure it's not running Visual C 1.5.2.
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2014-05-10T21:29:28Z drewc also mentions that there is a Quantum Computer nearby that the meta-OS is written in Common Lisp ... and there are more than enough things in the metaverse to crack any encryption instantly... and looks at his compass...
2014-05-10T21:29:43Z Odin-: drewc: Y'know, I've been subjected to a secret (for two years) search warrant for "any and all data" related to my Google account due to Internet activism. Your paranoia is underwhelming. :)
2014-05-10T21:29:56Z Odin-: Well, year and a half.
2014-05-10T21:31:23Z drewc: well, as luck would have it, there is no need for a search warrant to access my google data, as I am not USAsian ... As I unfortunately know from the court :)
2014-05-10T21:32:07Z Odin-: Neither am I.
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2014-05-10T21:34:28Z drewc: but, GPG for anything that matters, with a 'sorry, that key expired and I cannot decrypt it' as my standard defence means that until the quanta have some say in it ....
2014-05-10T21:34:49Z stassats: can i subject you to a search warrant due to off-topic?
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2014-05-10T21:40:20Z drewc: stassats: indeed, starting from PROG2 and on to http://www.dwavesys.com/ by way of making a corpus is mostly off topic. Sorry about that ... therein lies my confusion! ... I will be silent now ...
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2014-05-10T21:46:30Z Fare doesn't use cjdns (yet?) but uses gpg and has just started using tor seriously
2014-05-10T21:47:07Z Fare wonders about how to properly use cl in nixos
2014-05-10T21:47:30Z Fare: or gambit, or racket, etc.
2014-05-10T21:47:37Z Fare: chicken
2014-05-10T21:48:08Z drewc: Fare: heh ... I tried to make an SBCL package for guix ... BUT IIRC there already is one for NixOs ...
2014-05-10T21:48:17Z drewc: s/Os/OS/
2014-05-10T21:48:35Z Fare: yes, there is a sbcl package for nixos
2014-05-10T21:48:58Z dim: bigloo, hop, hiphop too?
2014-05-10T21:49:11Z Fare: I suppose I could do "as if", and invalidate my caches whenever I update sbcl
2014-05-10T21:49:16Z drewc: but, beyond that, no idea.
2014-05-10T21:49:22Z Fare: hadn't heard of hiphop.
2014-05-10T21:49:54Z drewc uses gambit + Guix all the time of course
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2014-05-10T21:50:38Z Fare: drewc: good datapoint to have
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2014-05-10T21:52:10Z drewc: '94 was 20 years ago
2014-05-10T21:52:30Z stassats: just math things
2014-05-10T21:52:35Z drewc: wow ... my head is just doing the math ... sorry about that folks
2014-05-10T21:54:09Z Fare: drewc: so you use guix instead of nixos? on top of what substrate?
2014-05-10T21:54:30Z Fare: or is guix standalone these days?
2014-05-10T21:54:53Z drewc: Fare: I use guix on top of Debian, Mint 16 or Android.
2014-05-10T21:55:37Z drewc: They have a standalone image that works under qemu, but I have not used it beyond 'heh, it runs!'
2014-05-10T21:57:59Z drewc: it is supposed to be a dist though, all said and done, so standalone is in the near future. That said, I have 5 computers around me ... 4 are running Android, and one Linux Mint 16, so likely never to go with standalone, and really prefer avoiding Xwindows where possible, hence Android.
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2014-05-10T21:59:31Z Fare: so you drop into a shell, set your $PATH, and there you go?
2014-05-10T21:59:41Z drewc even runs android on his Pentium M Thinkpad X41 ... and CCL is installed on all my devices (so On Topic for stassats!) 
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2014-05-10T22:00:52Z Fare: android on a thinkpad? You mean, as the main OS?
2014-05-10T22:00:57Z drewc: I do not even bother with the $PATH ... ~/.guix-profile/bin/emacs is from force of habit, and I have to Alt-Backspace out the emacs
2014-05-10T22:01:21Z drewc: Fare: yup
2014-05-10T22:01:49Z drewc: it does not even dual boot these days ... 100% pure android.
2014-05-10T22:01:56Z Fare: sounds weird. What kind of runtime does it have? some kind of terminal and busybox?
2014-05-10T22:02:48Z drewc: Fare: http://stefanseidel.info/index.php?view=article&id=3:android-x86
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2014-05-10T22:03:27Z drewc: it has whatever I install on it ... including my ubuntu/debian chroots of course.
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2014-05-10T22:03:49Z stassats: froyo? how quaint
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2014-05-10T22:04:26Z drewc: heh .. .that was a link but was the wrong page!
2014-05-10T22:05:08Z Fare: drewc: does guix have plenty of magic filesystems like nixos?
2014-05-10T22:05:34Z nyef: What's the point of android on x86?
2014-05-10T22:06:05Z p_l: nyef: from the pov android? it doesn't care. The shape of the device has more to say :)
2014-05-10T22:06:05Z drewc: nyef: well, what is the point of OSX on x86?
2014-05-10T22:06:36Z nyef: drewc: I still don't understand that one. I LIKE PowerPC, damnit!
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2014-05-10T22:07:50Z drewc: nyef: FWIW, I agree with you 100%, and actually really like ARM these days.
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2014-05-10T22:08:33Z nyef: I'm getting tired of ARM at the moment, but that has more to do with SBCL work than anything else.
2014-05-10T22:09:49Z p_l: nyef: well, there are new Power motherboards on the market :3
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2014-05-10T22:10:22Z nyef: big-endian power would be interesting to work with for a bit.
2014-05-10T22:10:46Z p_l: nyef: I don't know if the firmware on the boards allows BigEndian mode, but LE is definitely working
2014-05-10T22:10:53Z drewc: I like it because, well ... I live on a boat. It is fast, stable and uses almost _no_ power ... 0.5 Amps at 5v DC mean it can run off a completely dead 12v battery that will not even charge :)
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2014-05-10T22:11:52Z nyef: Hrm... This actually might be worth checking out, especially since my main computer is on the list of tested platforms.
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2014-05-10T22:17:04Z p_l: still, the power8 cpus are bi-endian. IBM will still charge you $8k for a p-series machine that will *definitely* run BE
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2014-05-10T22:22:52Z Fare: what's the point of bigendian? saving one instruction when decoding data in network order?
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2014-05-10T22:23:34Z stassats`: what's the point of little endian?
2014-05-10T22:23:58Z Fare: being compatible with the 6502, the awesomest 8-bit CPU.
2014-05-10T22:23:58Z p_l: the same point as little endian? in the end, on any modern hw, the only issue you might ever have is if you have system with LE I/O and BE CPU, or vice versa
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2014-05-10T22:46:11Z pjb: Fare: actually, I prefer the 6809.
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2014-05-10T22:51:00Z pjb: Fare: the point of big endian is to be easier to read and debug with memory dumps.  big endian is nicer to the assembler programmer.
2014-05-10T22:51:58Z p_l: and logical, and it didn't mattered back when things were word-addressed
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2014-05-10T22:53:11Z pjb: Well, logical can be argued.  It's easier to process variable length integers or big integers in little endian.
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2014-05-10T22:57:45Z stassats`: the SBCL arm port is now merged with upstream
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2014-05-11T00:00:11Z CrazyWoods: Are there someone here ever using GNUSTEP?
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2014-05-11T00:01:24Z Fare: congrats with this merge!
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2014-05-11T00:04:29Z Chosen: hey everyone
2014-05-11T00:05:02Z Chosen: I am noob but i want to try and understand something. Why is a hygenic macro? What are the advantages? And what are the advantages of a non-hygenic macro?
2014-05-11T00:05:34Z pjb: CrazyWoods: I use it from time to time. So far, not yet with lisp unfortunately.
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2014-05-11T00:06:02Z Chosen: is pjb = peanut butter jelly time.
2014-05-11T00:06:05Z Fare: Chosen, there are many tutorials online. Search for "racket hygienic macros"
2014-05-11T00:06:07Z pjb: Chosen: CL macros are not hygienic.  This is not a problem in general, because CL is a lisp-2.
2014-05-11T00:06:22Z Chosen: are there advantages to being not-hygenic?
2014-05-11T00:06:36Z Fare: hygienic macros are much better if you want to do a lot of nested and/or modular macro work
2014-05-11T00:06:52Z pjb: Chosen: in Scheme, which is a lisp-1, non-hygienic macros are more of a problem.  Therefore they need the Panzer Tank of hygienic macros.
2014-05-11T00:06:55Z Fare: for simple macros, the CL way is easier
2014-05-11T00:07:29Z Chosen: so the advantage for Un-hygenirc macros is they are easier for certain kinds of macros?
2014-05-11T00:07:46Z Fare: syntax-case macros have other advantages, such as better source location information, etc.
2014-05-11T00:08:10Z Chosen: are syntaxe-case macros hygenic?
2014-05-11T00:08:14Z Fare: yes
2014-05-11T00:08:20Z Fare: poster child thereof, these days
2014-05-11T00:08:28Z Chosen: btw i have no idea what i'm talking about. Just want to know if there are any advantages to the common lisp style.
2014-05-11T00:08:36Z Chosen: becuase i'm learnign common lisp
2014-05-11T00:08:47Z Fare: it looks like syntax-case has won over explicit-renaming and other ways of doing hygienic macros.
2014-05-11T00:08:58Z CrazyWoods: pjb: so objc?
2014-05-11T00:09:05Z pjb: Yes.
2014-05-11T00:09:33Z pjb: CrazyWoods: there's an objective-c bridge that could be used, but it's for an older version of objective-c gcc.
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2014-05-11T00:10:07Z Fare: also hygienic macros arguably work better in the context of mixing (yet distinguishing) multiple languages or language levels or evaluation times.
2014-05-11T00:10:36Z Fare: manually ensuring that you're using the correct "gensym" at each level can otherwise be "interesting".
2014-05-11T00:10:41Z sjl_ is now known as sjl
2014-05-11T00:10:48Z CrazyWoods: pjb: what are you use objc for, GUI programming?
2014-05-11T00:11:07Z pjb: For OpenStep applications.
2014-05-11T00:11:14Z Fare: see also my article on the horrors of eval-when.
2014-05-11T00:11:28Z pjb: Notice that indeed, you could use ecl, calling CL code from Objective-C.
2014-05-11T00:11:35Z pjb: Fare: url?
2014-05-11T00:11:48Z pjb: I don't find it horrible, but then, I only use toplevel eval-when.
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2014-05-11T00:13:23Z Chosen: i'm gonna go read more. I'm reading Gentle INtro to common lisp.
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2014-05-11T00:13:49Z pjb: CrazyWoods: also, if you don't have an Objective-C bridge (or a C++ bridge), you can always define a C API on your objects, and use cffi to call that C API.
2014-05-11T00:14:00Z Chosen: do you guys use slime?
2014-05-11T00:14:04Z pjb: Of course.
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2014-05-11T00:14:08Z Chosen: yay!
2014-05-11T00:14:10Z Fare: pjb: http://fare.livejournal.com/146698.html
2014-05-11T00:14:15Z pjb: Thanks.
2014-05-11T00:14:40Z Chosen: in emacs erc that link is clickable!!!
2014-05-11T00:15:13Z Chosen: pjb do you use ac-slime to integrate slime with autocomplete?
2014-05-11T00:15:18Z AdmiralBumbleBee: is anyone aware of a decent blogpost or writeup on a 'common lisp workflow', such as a basic development process?
2014-05-11T00:15:32Z pjb: Chosen: I didn't know it before you mention it. I've used autocomplete mode before.
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2014-05-11T00:16:20Z Chosen: AdmiralBumbleBee: i want to know the same thign!!! i'm new to lisp, but Slime is the 2cd coming of christ for interactive environment for lisp. And the completion with ac-slime is like VisualStudio for C#
2014-05-11T00:16:23Z axion: so i just updated to sbcl 1.1.17 and the latest quicklisp. i get an error when quickloading systems: [Condition of type QL-DIST:BADLY-SIZED-LOCAL-ARCHIVE]. not sure if this is due to the former or latter, or how to fix
2014-05-11T00:17:09Z Chosen: pjb. ac-slime is on melpa. if you type M-x list-packages or something like that.
2014-05-11T00:17:14Z AdmiralBumbleBee: Chosen: I'm actually looking to explain it to someone who's never used lisp and I'm failing... I'm hoping there's something well-written out there on the topic
2014-05-11T00:17:17Z CrazyWoods: pjb: i want to use it as GUI develop toolkit
2014-05-11T00:17:28Z pjb: Good idea.
2014-05-11T00:18:29Z jebes: crazywoods: have you looked at CLIM?
2014-05-11T00:18:40Z jebes: it is mostly dead but it is an intersting toolkit
2014-05-11T00:19:19Z Chosen: AdmiralBumbleBee: I don't know any articles. But you could describe it as a living environemnt that exists while youe develop and you can modify as you develop. OTher programming thingys it's a dead environment while you dev, nothing alive until you compile and run.
2014-05-11T00:20:41Z jebes: admiralbumblebee: have you even looked at smalltalk?
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2014-05-11T00:21:13Z AdmiralBumbleBee: jebes: I just finished SBE actually, why?
2014-05-11T00:21:21Z axion: nevermind. i backed up/deleted .cache, .slime, and local-projects/*. seems to work now
2014-05-11T00:21:31Z jebes: lisp has the same development ideas and whatnot as smalltalk
2014-05-11T00:21:55Z jebes: it is an interactive reflexive environment that supports iterative development.... jesus christ I sound like HR
2014-05-11T00:22:03Z jebes: it supports really just any dynamic development style
2014-05-11T00:22:17Z AdmiralBumbleBee: jebes: I'm attempting to explain the process to a fellow developer who only uses C, and I am failing
2014-05-11T00:22:28Z jebes: admiralbublebee: oh sorry...
2014-05-11T00:22:31Z AdmiralBumbleBee: hence I'm looking for external resources to direct him to
2014-05-11T00:22:39Z AdmiralBumbleBee: jebes: I should have been more clear originally
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2014-05-11T00:23:24Z jebes: admiralbumblebee: tell him you can change a webserver at run time by recompiling a function. That's pretty amazing and packs a lot of what lisp development is about in one sentence
2014-05-11T00:24:15Z pjb: CrazyWoods: darcs clone http://matthias.benkard.de/code/objective-cl benkard-objective-cl ; git clone http://git.informatimago.com/public/objective-cl informatimago-objective-cl
2014-05-11T00:24:15Z pjb:  
2014-05-11T00:24:15Z pjb:  
2014-05-11T00:25:22Z pjb: CrazyWoods: benkard's should work with an old gcc using Objective-C API version 1 or something;  the other repository is work in progress, where I update it for API version 2, and where I gathered some other Objective-C stuff.
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2014-05-11T00:25:49Z pjb: CrazyWoods: now, of course, current GNUstep uses API version 2, with the newest gcc!
2014-05-11T00:26:26Z pjb: jebes: you've got it on the reverse: Smalltalk has the same development ideas and whatnot as lisp.
2014-05-11T00:26:35Z pjb: interlisp and lispmachine in particular.
2014-05-11T00:27:12Z jebes: pjb: yea, that's true. I thought that admiral was new (they obviously arent')
2014-05-11T00:28:02Z Chosen: so weird that lisp got it right the first time without any previous languages for trial/error. How was the original creator of lisp able to know this? was he 2cd coming of christ?
2014-05-11T00:28:16Z jebes: chosen: FORTRAN was first
2014-05-11T00:28:29Z Fare: what about the CCL objC bridge?
2014-05-11T00:28:48Z pjb: It uses apple's compiler. So yet another Objective-C runtime.
2014-05-11T00:28:57Z jebes: also, it was really Alonzo Church with idea of lambda calculus, McCarthy just implemented it in a language
2014-05-11T00:29:11Z Fare: Chosen, Lisp got it wrong in many ways, and got many things right by chance
2014-05-11T00:29:18Z pjb: CrazyWoods: we'd need a libfixobjc like libfixposix, to provide a unique and nice Objective-C runtime API covering gcc API 2, gcc API 1, Apple API, and Cocotron (MS-Windows) API.
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2014-05-11T00:29:37Z jebes: Fare: i know lisp has some downfalls, but what do you think they are?
2014-05-11T00:29:37Z pjb: CrazyWoods: then we could implement a Lisp <-> Objective-C  bridge over this libfixobjc.
2014-05-11T00:29:48Z Chosen: just seems like i don't know anything. But somehow lisp creator was able to make the ultimate language that even modern lagnauges are lesser beings.
2014-05-11T00:30:00Z jebes: chosen: that's not quite right
2014-05-11T00:30:08Z jebes: you're going into this the wrong way
2014-05-11T00:30:14Z Chosen: things I need to study for years to understand, he got right the first time without previous knowlege. Was he a genious?
2014-05-11T00:30:25Z pjb: Yes.
2014-05-11T00:30:54Z Chosen: yes he was genious?
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2014-05-11T00:31:02Z axion: anyone knowledgable enough about pogo to answer a few basic questions i cannot find the answer to?
2014-05-11T00:31:23Z axion: pomo*
2014-05-11T00:31:25Z pjb: Chosen: yes he was. https://www.google.com/search?q=John+McCarthy
2014-05-11T00:31:39Z pjb: Chosen: yes he was. https://www.google.com/search?q=John+McCarthy+lisp
2014-05-11T00:31:46Z Fare: jebes: if by Lisp you mean CL, let's see: pathnames that suck, underspecified behavior in the standard more generally, no tail call guarantee, no delimited continuations, no good concurrency support, ten incompatible implementations that don't talk to each other, etc.
2014-05-11T00:32:03Z Fare: no module system, no hygienic macros
2014-05-11T00:32:07Z pjb: Fare: pathnames don't suck.  Implementations suck.
2014-05-11T00:32:15Z Fare: pjb: same difference?
2014-05-11T00:32:15Z pjb: Underspecification doesn't excuse implementations.
2014-05-11T00:32:27Z jebes: fare: hahaha, you forgot the seperation of functions and variables in namespaces. I was talking about Lisps in general
2014-05-11T00:33:03Z Fare: the lisp-2 aspect isn't bad as such, although apply and lambda are certainly cumbersome syntax
2014-05-11T00:33:05Z drmeister: jebes: Separation of functions and variables in two namespaces makes macro writing easier.
2014-05-11T00:33:44Z jebes: drmeister: how so?
2014-05-11T00:34:06Z jebes: CL does need continuations...
2014-05-11T00:34:14Z pjb: In any case, even if lisp was the worst programming language of the world, it would still be superior to all the other programming languages for a single reason: macros.
2014-05-11T00:34:44Z jebes: pjb: hahaha, true. Even though they were though of as an after thought :)
2014-05-11T00:35:35Z pjb: Indeed.  However, what enables lisp macros is the sexp discovery by Russell: one can write a usable implementations processing directly sexps (which are data) instead of parsing the M-expr syntax.
2014-05-11T00:35:55Z Fare: BabyBoo informs me that on LW/Win, #p"foo" is read with HOST = NIL even when *default-pathname-defaults* has "C" as host (also interesting that the drive letter counts as host and not device, which makes syntactic sense, though not semantic sense)
2014-05-11T00:36:15Z drmeister: Jebes: With two namespaces you have much less trouble with variable capture.  It's a point I picked up from the book "Let Over Lambda".
2014-05-11T00:36:19Z p_l: ... yeah, that's very wrong on windows
2014-05-11T00:36:40Z jebes: drmeister: how was Let over lambda? I've been meaning to dive into it but never got around to it.
2014-05-11T00:36:41Z p_l: pathname with "C" as host should translate to //C/<rest>
2014-05-11T00:37:06Z p_l: well, \\C\…, not that any reasonable Windows versions cares
2014-05-11T00:37:12Z drmeister: jebes: It's a great book - it opened a whole world to me of writing programs that write programs that write programs...
2014-05-11T00:37:55Z Chosen: brain is a program that writes programs. So lisp can be brain?
2014-05-11T00:38:23Z jebes: and onto my to buy list
2014-05-11T00:38:24Z Chosen: brain macro? or does it transform?
2014-05-11T00:38:36Z drmeister: Chosen: "Brain is brain", "program is program"  "stick is stick".
2014-05-11T00:38:40Z Bike: usually you would use an article, like "the", in that sentence
2014-05-11T00:38:41Z p_l: brain is what a very drunken semi-random process managed to wire up from crap
2014-05-11T00:38:42Z jebes: heh
2014-05-11T00:38:57Z jebes: p_l: HAHAH
2014-05-11T00:39:00Z Bike: so as not to sound like, i dunno, zardoz
2014-05-11T00:39:14Z drmeister: "Zardoz is zardoz"!
2014-05-11T00:39:23Z p_l: jebes: learning a bit of neurology provided me more arguments against "intelligent design" theory than anything else
2014-05-11T00:39:36Z Chosen: Brains can think so it is proof that atoms with electricity running through them can think. So lisp creator created lisp with brain macros?
2014-05-11T00:39:36Z Bike: p_l just isn't in touch with his cranial nerve zero
2014-05-11T00:39:39Z p_l: s/theory/hypothesis/
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2014-05-11T00:40:10Z Fare: what parse-namestring does when *d-p-d* has a non-nil HOST is completely implementation-dependent. Ain't that fun?
2014-05-11T00:40:14Z p_l: Bike: I'm so in touch that my GC rarely leaks, but MMU fails from time to time
2014-05-11T00:40:25Z jebes: chosen: no, isn't more of a thing that a significantly complex process can be faked for intellegence if anything.
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2014-05-11T00:40:39Z Bike: seriously though, badly understood neuroscience isn't on-topic
2014-05-11T00:40:47Z p_l: true
2014-05-11T00:40:54Z p_l: neither is philosophy of brain etc.
2014-05-11T00:41:02Z Fare: p_l: : is a standard lisp separator for host, so it kind of makes sense that c: means host c
2014-05-11T00:41:20Z Fare: I said "kind of"
2014-05-11T00:41:29Z p_l: Fare: except it's supposed to match actual OS' concept of host
2014-05-11T00:41:30Z Fare: nothing really makes sense with pathnames.
2014-05-11T00:41:37Z Chosen: i think that brains are made of atoms. So our atoms are thinking or something. Isn't that awesome? Why can't lisp have brain macros?
2014-05-11T00:41:46Z Bike: stop
2014-05-11T00:41:49Z jebes: in UNIX pathname makes sense
2014-05-11T00:41:54Z jebes: chosen: are you trolling right now?
2014-05-11T00:42:12Z p_l: Fare: as such, C is a device (actually, an alias, but nvm). '.' is the host of pathnames that refer to local machine
2014-05-11T00:42:15Z Fare: Chosen: our utterances here are brain macros
2014-05-11T00:42:17Z Chosen: no, we were talking about brains
2014-05-11T00:42:40Z Fare: p_l: good luck standardizing CL pathnames on Windows.
2014-05-11T00:43:03Z p_l: Fare: I think LW probably got that from some pre-NT code and then kept it for backward-compatibility...
2014-05-11T00:43:32Z p_l bets there's at least one client who has code from 3.11 Win32s application that uses full pathnames
2014-05-11T00:44:03Z p_l: and which depends on HOST being interpreted as device
2014-05-11T00:44:14Z p_l: the really fun stuff is mapping VERSION on windows
2014-05-11T00:44:36Z p_l: because the OS supports versioned files >_>
2014-05-11T00:45:27Z Fare: p_l: I have plenty of evidence that a lot of LW internals haven't been updated since MS-DOS 3 days.
2014-05-11T00:45:42Z Fare: command-line processing also seems to be it
2014-05-11T00:45:52Z Fare not-so-fondly remembers MS-DOS 2.11
2014-05-11T00:46:31Z p_l: pretty sure NT has equivalents of every field of CL pathname, although version part doesn't map to a pathname component in NT (but to a call with apropriate API)
2014-05-11T00:46:39Z Fare: Coming from the Apple ][, I remember my horror when I realized that you couldn't intermix DOS commands and the system programming language (MS BASIC in those days)
2014-05-11T00:47:03Z p_l: Did you have Cassette Basic? :)
2014-05-11T00:47:26Z drmeister: Which Common Lisp has the best PATHNAME implementation?
2014-05-11T00:47:32Z p_l: (because that's the only one that would count as "system programming language", though I think basica.exe was supplied on most MS DOS versions...)
2014-05-11T00:47:49Z Fare: My uncle had splurged and bought a COMPAQ portable with TWO, mind you, TWO double-density floppy disks
2014-05-11T00:48:03Z Fare: or maybe it was only one, and my dad bought a second one later.
2014-05-11T00:48:04Z p_l: drmeister: ... I'm thinking of betting on Symbolics
2014-05-11T00:48:21Z CrazyWoods: pjb: thank you
2014-05-11T00:48:34Z Fare: and then eventually... the 10MB (or was it 20?) hard disk!
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2014-05-11T00:48:48Z Fare: wow, SOOOO much memory
2014-05-11T00:49:00Z Fare: how could we ever fill that disk?
2014-05-11T00:49:06Z Chosen: is symbolics still alive?
2014-05-11T00:49:14Z drmeister: I'm not up on my Lisp history.   Is there a Symbolics Common Lisp?   I thought the Symbolics code is now subsumed into other Common Lisps.
2014-05-11T00:49:14Z Fare: Chosen, is Cthulhu still alive?
2014-05-11T00:49:17Z p_l: Chosen: on life support of some clients
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2014-05-11T00:49:44Z Fare: drmeister, not just one, but at least two!
2014-05-11T00:50:04Z p_l: drmeister: Symbolics code never "subsumed" into anything - it was proprietary implementation that also included Common Lisp. How much was possibly exported to other places, I have no idea
2014-05-11T00:50:42Z Fare: or maybe three
2014-05-11T00:51:01Z drmeister: p_l: I seem to recall seeing "Symbolics" in a lot of Common Lisp code that I read.
2014-05-11T00:51:06Z Fare: there's a Symbolics Common Lisp and an ANSI Common Lisp
2014-05-11T00:51:30Z Fare: and maybe a Future-Common-Lisp, though it might have been the same as ANSI Common Lisp just in a different namespace.
2014-05-11T00:51:54Z axion: in postmodern, how can i create a bunch of tables with the same schema, but different names? i am only familiar with creating tables from rpedefined classes. any help appreciated
2014-05-11T00:51:55Z p_l: drmeister: the thing is, Genera (Symbolics LispM's software), actually used all components of the pathname, thus my quip :)
2014-05-11T00:52:00Z Fare: Symbolics had "syntaxes" as in SYNTAX:::PACKAGE::SYMBOL
2014-05-11T00:52:24Z p_l: Fare: isn't that Symbolics' relative symbol scheme?
2014-05-11T00:52:38Z Fare: "relative"? No, it's fixed-depth.
2014-05-11T00:52:41Z p_l: IIRC, you could do PACKAGE::PACKAGE::…::SYMBOL
2014-05-11T00:52:54Z Fare: every package may have a name in every syntax, or some such
2014-05-11T00:53:00Z p_l: ahhh, didn't notice the triple colon
2014-05-11T00:53:07Z Fare: p_l: I don't remember any such feature
2014-05-11T00:53:08Z drmeister: Fare: What are SYNTAX:::PACKAGE::SYMBOL?
2014-05-11T00:53:26Z p_l: Fare: I found it in docs, but it didn't appear used much
2014-05-11T00:53:35Z Fare: drmeister, so that CL:LOOP is different whether in ANSI syntax or legacy symbolics syntax.
2014-05-11T00:53:50Z Fare: annoyingly, neither syntax has a full ANSI compliant LOOP
2014-05-11T00:54:06Z Fare: one doesn't do destructuring, the other one doesn't do vectors, or some such.
2014-05-11T00:54:31Z drmeister: So you would use (SYMBOLICS:::CL::LOOP ...)?
2014-05-11T00:54:34Z Chosen: i'm gonna go learn more lisp. back to reading gentle intro.
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2014-05-11T00:55:04Z Fare: drmeister: yes except I'd call it LISP:LOOP, since the package is visible as LISP in the ANSI syntax.
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2014-05-11T00:57:34Z drmeister: Oh - yeah.  I've been doing a LOT of C++ in the past couple of days.
2014-05-11T00:58:01Z drmeister: "::" ":" ":::"   So many colons... so many compiler errors...
2014-05-11T00:58:14Z drmeister: "compile errors"
2014-05-11T00:59:26Z Fare: drmeister, how is clasp coming along?
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2014-05-11T00:59:59Z drmeister: Fare: I'm working on moving garbage collection.   I hope to turn it on within hours and hopefully not days.
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2014-05-11T01:00:39Z Fare: drmeister, so you need to enforce stronger invariants than before?
2014-05-11T01:00:48Z Fare: wrt to tracking stuff.
2014-05-11T01:01:02Z drmeister: Fare: No.   I have a static analyzer that takes care of everything.
2014-05-11T01:01:03Z Fare: is that compatible with LLVM at all? Maybe with some stack-conservatism?
2014-05-11T01:01:04Z axion: dim, H4ns: got a minute?
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2014-05-11T01:01:17Z Fare: drmeister, can your static analyzer take care of temporary variables?
2014-05-11T01:01:47Z Fare: or temporary registers?
2014-05-11T01:02:13Z drmeister: Fare: Yes - it identifies temporary variables that would cause problems (those that create pointers on the heap) and tells me to set them up as roots while they are in scope.
2014-05-11T01:02:14Z Fare: or temporary stuff happening under the hood in LLVM's equivalent to SBCL's VOPs?
2014-05-11T01:02:29Z drmeister: What are VOPs?
2014-05-11T01:02:42Z jebes: can someone point me to the definition/documentation of VOP's, I can't find it anywhere
2014-05-11T01:03:01Z jebes: i kinda know what they are but the user manual or internals manuel of SBCL don't have a section on them that I can find
2014-05-11T01:03:01Z Fare: in SBCL, basically, the unit of stuff that gets expanded into a sequence of assembly instructions
2014-05-11T01:03:26Z Fare: these instructions might temporarily do ugly stuff to your pointers
2014-05-11T01:04:16Z nyef: The sbcl-internals cliki had some information, and the EncyCMUCLopedia should also have something.
2014-05-11T01:04:20Z drmeister: Fare: I don't know how VOPs relate to what I'm doing.      I'm using the Memory Pool System by Ravenbrook.   It copies precise references on the heap and pins ambiguous references from the stack.  It's a "mostly-copying garbage collector".
2014-05-11T01:04:44Z Fare: drmeister, I don't know LLVM well, but it probably has the equivalent of VOP at some level.
2014-05-11T01:05:26Z drmeister: Fare: I don't know VOPs so I can't say if or where the equivalences exist.
2014-05-11T01:06:29Z drmeister: All I know is what I'm doing and it's fiendishly complex and if I didn't have the Clang AST library exposed in Common Lisp my work would have died on the vine.
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2014-05-11T01:07:17Z p_l: LLVM has macroinstructions, iirc, which are roughly what VOP do
2014-05-11T01:07:54Z nyef: A VOP informs the compiler how to open-code some construct or other, such as a call to a particular function with certain types of arguments, or move a value between stack and registers or vice versa, or deal with various bits of non-local exit/entry normal call/return, and so on.
2014-05-11T01:08:14Z drmeister: p_l: Macroinstructions?  Do you mean the LLVM-IR?
2014-05-11T01:08:28Z Fare: drmeister, your youtube demo was pretty cool
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2014-05-11T01:09:29Z drmeister: Fare: Thanks!  Wait 'till you get your hands on the real thing - it's freaking awesome.
2014-05-11T01:09:50Z p_l: drmeister: no, there's a way to define "instructions" that result in callbacks to code that then returns LLVM-IR
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2014-05-11T01:09:59Z p_l: or so I recall from my few times with LLVM
2014-05-11T01:10:28Z drmeister: p_l: I don't know about macroinstructions in LLVM... must google...
2014-05-11T01:10:34Z p_l: so you can have higher-level code generator use those macroinstructions and lower-level passes can transform them
2014-05-11T01:11:02Z p_l: drmeister: mind you, I might be mistaken - it's been years that I looked at it
2014-05-11T01:11:50Z drmeister: p_l: I don't see anything that resembles what you describe - perhaps it was an old idea that was buried?
2014-05-11T01:12:16Z p_l: drmeister: I might have the wrong name, too
2014-05-11T01:12:34Z p_l: googling something with wrong name is hard :)
2014-05-11T01:13:31Z drmeister: p_l: If you do find a reference for what you are referring to - could you send me a memo?   I thought I had a good grasp of LLVM concepts. I'd hate to miss something important or valuable.
2014-05-11T01:14:15Z drmeister: I work with LLVM-IR instructions directly via the LLVM C++ library.
2014-05-11T01:14:39Z drmeister: I build Modules, add Functions, add BasicBlocks, add Instructions.
2014-05-11T01:15:18Z drmeister: That's another nice thing about Clasp - it's a great test bench for working with LLVM-IR.
2014-05-11T01:16:06Z meow271: if there a to iterate through two lists of identical size in a (loop for i in list1 for j in list2)
2014-05-11T01:16:12Z meow271: is there a way*?
2014-05-11T01:16:13Z p_l: drmeister: http://llvm.org/docs/ExtendingLLVM.html#intrinsic-function
2014-05-11T01:16:25Z stassats`: meow271: yes, it is the way
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2014-05-11T01:16:55Z meow271: stassats: so... its not a nested loop?
2014-05-11T01:17:15Z meow271: i guess i can figure that one on my own
2014-05-11T01:17:28Z p_l: drmeister: that's what I was thinking of
2014-05-11T01:17:33Z stassats`: do you see any nesting?
2014-05-11T01:17:58Z meow271: stassats: no, but im still new to this language. the loop syntax takes a bit to get used to
2014-05-11T01:18:25Z loke_erc: meow271: It's easy once you understand it.
2014-05-11T01:18:33Z stassats`: what isn't?
2014-05-11T01:18:47Z drmeister: p_l: Ok - I use those but I never thought to define new ones.
2014-05-11T01:18:50Z loke_erc: stassats`: Oracle PL/SQL
2014-05-11T01:19:00Z loke_erc: stassats`: PHP
2014-05-11T01:19:21Z stassats`: php is easier the less you understand it
2014-05-11T01:19:27Z meow271: lol
2014-05-11T01:19:28Z loke_erc: stassats`: Exactly :-)
2014-05-11T01:19:42Z p_l: loke_erc: I don't know whether I should abuse ability to kick or swipe strong alcohol from other students for the PL/SQL part ;>
2014-05-11T01:21:13Z p_l: (I'm already too desensitized to PHP...)
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2014-05-11T01:28:03Z drmeister: p_l: So "intrinsic functions" are like macros?  They return LLVM-IR?
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2014-05-11T01:35:03Z p_l: drmeister: from my understanding they are mostly callbacks, so you can introduce a complex function that interacts with LLVM to generate something apropriate
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2014-05-11T01:40:55Z drmeister: p_l: Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.
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2014-05-11T01:45:06Z drmeister: Fare: Regarding your original question - it shouldn't matter what the code does to my pointers.  Ambiguous pointers on the stack pin objects in memory.   Precise pointers on the heap are updated by an object scanning function that the Memory Pool System calls and that my static analyzer writes after it compiles the 165 C++ source files of my code into the Clang Abstract Syntax Tree.
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2014-05-11T01:46:27Z drmeister: The pointers that I'm talking about are managed by a template class smart_ptr<X> and I don't do anything weird with those pointers.    I guess that is my invariant: "Don't mess with smart_ptr<X>".
2014-05-11T01:48:55Z drmeister: What do people think of the following?     My smart_ptr<X> is a fat pointer.  It stores a X* pointer which may or may not be an interior pointer and it stores a second pointer to the base of the object in memory.
2014-05-11T01:49:01Z drmeister: So they are currently 128 bits wide.
2014-05-11T01:49:24Z drmeister: I'm using the bottom two bits to tag the pointers (for FIXNUM, CHARACTER and some other stuff).
2014-05-11T01:50:03Z drmeister: Idea: I was thinking of creating tagged CONSes.    I could represent an entire CONS within a fat pointer.
2014-05-11T01:51:05Z drmeister: Isn't this reminiscent of the old Lisp machines, or the original implementations of Lisp?   Didn't they pack an entire CONS into a pointer?
2014-05-11T01:51:40Z drmeister: Is it worth doing this or should I just use boxed CONSes?    I can set it up so I can switch back and forth and profile it.
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2014-05-11T02:37:23Z loke_erc: drmeister: How do you garbage collect?
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2014-05-11T02:41:32Z brucem: loke_erc: he uses MPS from Ravenbrook.
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2014-05-11T02:59:07Z drmeister: loke_erc: What brucem said.
2014-05-11T03:00:26Z loke_erc: What did he say? I lost connection. :-)
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2014-05-11T03:01:34Z nyef: clhs append
2014-05-11T03:01:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_append.htm
2014-05-11T03:02:03Z drmeister: loke_erc: I use MPS from Ravenbrook.
2014-05-11T03:02:05Z nyef: Okay, the last list is not copied, that's what I thought I remembered.
2014-05-11T03:03:24Z loke_erc: drmeister: I see.
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2014-05-11T05:12:00Z meow271: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142486
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2014-05-11T05:12:22Z meow271: how do i make the above link do what i want it to do? are for loop list iterations always protected?
2014-05-11T05:14:10Z Bike: i'm honestly not sure what you want to do
2014-05-11T05:16:45Z meow271: Bike: convert the contents of the list into nil
2014-05-11T05:17:36Z meow271: Bike: it would work if i iterated through the size of the list and used (setf (nth index) nil)
2014-05-11T05:19:13Z Bike: you could do it with loop as (loop for x on l do (setf (car x) nil))
2014-05-11T05:19:27Z Bike: or more sensibly with (make-list (length list)) or so
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2014-05-11T05:29:11Z meow271: Bike: for unique values the 2nd options would work, right?
2014-05-11T05:29:22Z meow271: Also: i thought car is non-destructive
2014-05-11T05:29:43Z Bike: i'm really not sure what you're asking
2014-05-11T05:30:02Z Bike: car is an accessor, there's a "getter" that doesn't destroy anything and a "setter" that does so, deliberately
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2014-05-11T05:35:24Z meow271: Bike: well, your advice does seem to work, I'd just like to know if you know if the performance is better compared to (loop for i from 0 to (length alist) STUFF)
2014-05-11T05:35:32Z meow271: do*
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2014-05-11T05:38:42Z Bike: i doubt you'll have a situation where it's a bottleneck, but that's what profiling's for
2014-05-11T05:38:46Z loke_erc: meow271: LENGTH will iterate over the list
2014-05-11T05:38:49Z phadthai: it depends on the implementation, but you could assume that using LENGTH and NTH might need to run though the list more often than iterating once through it using LOOP's IN or ON
2014-05-11T05:39:04Z phadthai: and indeed, you should profile where/when necessary
2014-05-11T05:39:15Z loke_erc: meow271: What you probably want is: (loop for x in alist for i from 0 STUFF)
2014-05-11T05:43:11Z meow271: loke_erc: as stated above, doing so doesn't let me directly alter the contents of a list, Bike's solution works however
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2014-05-11T09:27:03Z quazi: hey all im having trouble finding the answer to this; whats the recomended way to pass different arguments to the methods defined on a sinle generic
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2014-05-11T09:53:38Z BabyBoo: Hello, i am using function (write-to-file) but i want to write in a new line without the first is lost, how can i do this?
2014-05-11T09:54:24Z hitecnologys: BabyBoo: :if-exists :append, I guess.
2014-05-11T09:54:36Z BabyBoo: thanks, i ll check
2014-05-11T09:54:37Z hitecnologys: clhs white-to-file
2014-05-11T09:54:37Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for white-to-file.
2014-05-11T09:54:43Z hitecnologys: clhs write-to-file
2014-05-11T09:54:43Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for write-to-file.
2014-05-11T09:55:06Z BabyBoo: clhs with-open-file
2014-05-11T09:55:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_open.htm
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2014-05-11T09:56:18Z hitecnologys: Yeah, :append should work.
2014-05-11T09:57:27Z BabyBoo: Yes, it worked thank you! Now i am searching the newLine character.
2014-05-11T09:59:08Z jdz: BabyBoo: only one character? what about the systems where new line is two characters?
2014-05-11T09:59:19Z jdz: BabyBoo: but there is #\newline
2014-05-11T09:59:38Z jdz: BabyBoo: and #\linefeed and #\return
2014-05-11T10:01:20Z jdz: clhs 13.1.7
2014-05-11T10:01:20Z specbot: Character Names: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/13_ag.htm
2014-05-11T10:01:51Z BabyBoo: The character  ~% worked fine for me!
2014-05-11T10:02:10Z jdz: that's not exactly a character
2014-05-11T10:02:49Z BabyBoo: Yes, i expressed it wrong
2014-05-11T10:02:50Z axion: how can i make this run in the current package instead of common-lisp-user? http://paste.lisp.org/display/142489
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2014-05-11T10:03:59Z hitecnologys: axion: (let ((*package* ...)) ...) should work.
2014-05-11T10:04:36Z hitecnologys: axion: well, that's not exactly right solution but that's what I use.
2014-05-11T10:04:54Z axion: yeah that seems kind of hackish
2014-05-11T10:05:21Z hitecnologys: I don't think bordeaux-threads offers a way to specify package.
2014-05-11T10:06:27Z hitecnologys: There's this initial-bindings thing. You can use it to overwrite *package*.
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2014-05-11T10:07:54Z axion: hmm
2014-05-11T10:08:30Z hitecnologys: SBCL doesn't seem to provide any package specifier too so I guess it's the only way: bind *package*.
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2014-05-11T10:10:23Z axion: (bt:make-thread (lambda () (package-name *package*)) :initial-bindings (list (cons '*package* *package*)))
2014-05-11T10:10:26Z axion: that works
2014-05-11T10:10:30Z axion: seems ugly though
2014-05-11T10:11:15Z hitecnologys: Indeed.
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2014-05-11T10:12:41Z hitecnologys: Wrapping it in a function may help, but I'm sure there must me some other way of doing the same thing.
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2014-05-11T10:14:22Z axion: Ok thanks
2014-05-11T10:15:07Z axion: This is a problem moving my reusable code amount different projects to a generic stdlib system, so it's all going to be hidden anyway
2014-05-11T10:15:14Z axion: amoung*
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2014-05-11T10:19:13Z jdz: axion: why does your code in the thread care about current package?
2014-05-11T10:19:47Z JuanDaugherty: axion, why does it seem 'ugly'?
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2014-05-11T10:21:29Z JuanDaugherty fluffs axion's synapses.
2014-05-11T10:22:44Z BabyBoo: I have an array, called board, which have these elements #(M M M - L L L). Then i want to check if the elements are exactly these. Like (if (eq board '(M M M - L L L ) )) is this right?
2014-05-11T10:23:17Z axion: hehe, well it's a reusable function that accesses a data file relative to the current package's source directory
2014-05-11T10:23:27Z H4ns: BabyBoo: not at all.  experiment on the repl to see
2014-05-11T10:23:30Z axion: so it obtains the pathname from the package-name
2014-05-11T10:24:00Z ck_: H4ns: I'll probably be in Berlin on 2014-05-24, -25; on the off chance that you can think of something: is there anything interesting happening you could tell me about? I know about the 27th but can't stay longer than the weekend.
2014-05-11T10:24:11Z H4ns: BabyBoo: what does (eql #(l l) '(l l)) evaluate to?
2014-05-11T10:24:29Z H4ns: BabyBoo: then look at the documentation for eql, eq, equal and equalp
2014-05-11T10:24:50Z H4ns: ck_: i don't quite know what you'd find interesting, so what are you looking for?
2014-05-11T10:25:39Z H4ns: BabyBoo: don't /msg me for support, please.
2014-05-11T10:26:16Z jdz: axion: but you expect the "current package" to be something, without specifiying it for the thread?
2014-05-11T10:26:31Z ck_: H4ns: I'm looking for likeminded spirits. Any meetings maybe, gatherings, places where nice people come for coffee. If that's not too cloudy a description.
2014-05-11T10:26:51Z axion: jdz: I was simply asking for a way to bind the current package to the thread, which i received :)
2014-05-11T10:27:28Z jdz: axion: right. i thought that answer was not to your satisfaction (there's nothing "hackish" about it)
2014-05-11T10:27:44Z jdz: or ugly
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2014-05-11T10:27:55Z H4ns: ck_: it is too cloudy i fear :) -- there is the c-base if you're into blade runner style outfits
2014-05-11T10:28:02Z hitecnologys: Well, it looks kinda ugly to me.
2014-05-11T10:28:37Z H4ns: ck_: i frequent the st. oberholz, but i'd not claim that there are many like-minded people there.  but there are many people with laptops in that place.
2014-05-11T10:28:53Z ck_: yes, I noticed, macbooks especially
2014-05-11T10:29:21Z axion: what i meant was it seemed like there was a better solution than to wrap the thread creation in a let binding, then learned about initial-bindings, which is better, but seems long and thought it could be simplified. regardless, no harm as it will all be hidden away in a reusable library
2014-05-11T10:29:38Z ck_: well, I e-mailed one of the people I met at the lisp gathering when you and I talked too. That was the march one I think.
2014-05-11T10:31:07Z ck_: H4ns: thank you very much still. I'll memorize the c-base, but I don't own a clear plastic rain coad, probably wouldn't pass the voight-kampf (?) test and can't fold little origami unicorns
2014-05-11T10:31:23Z ck_: ".. but then again who can."
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2014-05-11T10:50:05Z capella-da-star: Hello guys!
2014-05-11T10:50:20Z BabyBoo: clhs with-open-file
2014-05-11T10:50:20Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_open.htm
2014-05-11T10:50:48Z capella-da-star: If someone wants to write a small AI to do some common trivial tasks in Lisp (common lisp). What should he do?
2014-05-11T10:51:44Z capella-da-star: Would really appreciate some advice.
2014-05-11T10:53:06Z hitecnologys: minion: tell capella-da-star about paip
2014-05-11T10:53:06Z minion: paip: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/paip
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2014-05-11T10:53:26Z dim: capella-da-star: a simple game, or a sudoku, or something
2014-05-11T10:53:38Z dim: capella-da-star: reversi our power of 4 would be a choice
2014-05-11T10:53:52Z dim: it's not really an AI, it's the alpha-beta algo, but still
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2014-05-11T10:54:03Z dim: sodoku involves backtracking, another kind of fun
2014-05-11T10:54:27Z dim: and then PAIP (I bought it, I'm yet to open the book someday) ;-)
2014-05-11T10:55:00Z capella-da-star: Yeah. That would be good. But I want to make something bigger and more intelligent.
2014-05-11T10:55:12Z capella-da-star: I wou
2014-05-11T10:55:32Z capella-da-star: * would love to read some existing AI code written in Lisp if possible.
2014-05-11T10:55:49Z JuanDaugherty: you could take a lisp expert system and apply it to some domain
2014-05-11T10:55:59Z ck_: capella-da-star: do you know about SHRDLU ?
2014-05-11T10:56:05Z JuanDaugherty: a number exist in open source, mostly old
2014-05-11T10:56:10Z capella-da-star: Would you recommend some good sources to read them?
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2014-05-11T10:56:52Z ck_: capella-da-star: I'm talking about the block-world-domain interpreter you could instruct like "a great-pyramid is something composed of a cube and a pyramid. build a great-pyramid"
2014-05-11T10:57:03Z JuanDaugherty: you might look at mcdyar [sic] looking up actual name ...
2014-05-11T10:57:08Z ck_: capella-da-star: as far as I know, the source is public domain now
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2014-05-11T10:58:03Z JuanDaugherty: (mcdypar) natural language understanding
2014-05-11T10:58:16Z capella-da-star: I couldn’t find the source code, ck_ would yo
2014-05-11T10:58:25Z capella-da-star: u be kind and point to the source?
2014-05-11T10:58:54Z JuanDaugherty: gotta do stuff urself
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2014-05-11T10:59:14Z ck_: I can't because I don't remember. have you looked at the AI archive? try jwz's blog, I know he has a link in his blog.
2014-05-11T10:59:28Z ck_: for example in the MOST-POSITIVE-BIGNUM posting
2014-05-11T11:00:44Z ck_: capella-da-star: reading again what you asked about .. "an AI to do some common trivial tasks in lisp" is not something I can really understand. What do you want to do?
2014-05-11T11:01:54Z capella-da-star: Okay, I want my AI to be able to do things I have to do in my daily life. Like finding good content in internet that I like. Configuring editors etc.
2014-05-11T11:02:30Z ck_: what is your experience in programming generally?
2014-05-11T11:02:38Z capella-da-star: I might sound naive and stupid, but I am just exploring the possiblities and I am really really into learning LISP.
2014-05-11T11:02:54Z capella-da-star: I am decent with C, python and JavaScript.
2014-05-11T11:03:27Z ck_: I don't know about stupid. But you sound like you've just finished a William Gibson book and want to do 'stuff like that' yourself. I think we are not quite at the wintermute level yet.
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2014-05-11T11:05:09Z capella-da-star: Okay, to be more clear. I am definitely not hoping to implement something like that in near future. But I want to learn LISP and do a side project with this idea. I am willing to spend time and effort for it.
2014-05-11T11:05:33Z ck_: hitecnologys tried to get the bot to tell you about the book "Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming". That is very good advice. You should get the book and work through it.
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2014-05-11T11:05:54Z ck_: Norvig has his code available at http://norvig.com/paip/
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2014-05-11T11:06:14Z ck_: Good Luck
2014-05-11T11:06:22Z capella-da-star: Thanks for the advice. :)
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2014-05-11T11:07:21Z capella-da-star: One small question though, The only LISP resource I have is SICP. Is that enough of a foundation to start LISP or should I read some other resource as well
2014-05-11T11:07:22Z capella-da-star: ?
2014-05-11T11:08:03Z ck_: sicp is about scheme, not common lisp
2014-05-11T11:08:16Z loke_erc: capella-da-star: I'd recommend Practical Common Lisp
2014-05-11T11:08:30Z eagleflo: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2014-05-11T11:08:31Z loke_erc: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2014-05-11T11:08:48Z capella-da-star: Yes, I know the dialect is different. But I thought the basics of LISP were same.
2014-05-11T11:08:55Z capella-da-star: Thanks for clearing that up.
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2014-05-11T11:09:11Z ck_: that is a matter of much depate you should steer clear off for now
2014-05-11T11:09:21Z ck_: debate*, what's wrong with my typing today? sigh.
2014-05-11T11:09:33Z loke_erc: capella-da-star: There are similarities, but Lisp and Scheme are about as different as... hmm... C++ and Java
2014-05-11T11:09:43Z capella-da-star: eagleflo and loke_erc . Thanks for the link. Really appreciate it.
2014-05-11T11:10:01Z JuanDaugherty: is "A Modern Approach" supposed to supersede PAIP?
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2014-05-11T11:10:05Z loke_erc: capella-da-star: Syntactical similarities, but fundamentally different languages.
2014-05-11T11:10:07Z capella-da-star: Ah, okay.
2014-05-11T11:11:08Z ck_: JuanDaugherty: I don't know! Also I didn't know it was available as an edX-course: http://aima.cs.berkeley.edu/
2014-05-11T11:11:14Z ck_ makes a note
2014-05-11T11:11:51Z capella-da-star: Wao, you guys are awesome. :) I never hoped to find all these good resources myself. Thanks everyone.
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2014-05-11T11:12:19Z JuanDaugherty: now go spread the lisp gospel
2014-05-11T11:12:23Z loke_erc: capella-da-star: I don't know if anyone mentioned it, but if you want to write _real_ programs in Lisp, you should look up Quicklisp
2014-05-11T11:12:55Z loke_erc: capella-da-star: It's the package manager for CL (think "pip" for python). It's newer than the PCL book, so it's not mentioned there.
2014-05-11T11:12:55Z capella-da-star: loke_erc:  Please explain
2014-05-11T11:13:18Z capella-da-star: okay
2014-05-11T11:13:21Z loke_erc: capella-da-star: Basically, if you want, say, an XML library you issue a Quicklisp command and it will dwnload and install that library together with all the dependencies.
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2014-05-11T11:14:32Z capella-da-star: Okay, I got the analogy between it and pip.
2014-05-11T11:14:56Z loke_erc: capella-da-star: Anyway, doing real programming in CL is not fun without QL :-)
2014-05-11T11:15:03Z loke_erc: WIth QL, it's very very fun.
2014-05-11T11:15:22Z capella-da-star: Yeah, thanks. :)
2014-05-11T11:17:12Z capella-da-star: I created a fun logo for the AI project https://i.cloudup.com/7wvIvKHw8W-3000x3000.png . Will definitely share the project link here anytime I am able to write something decent
2014-05-11T11:17:13Z capella-da-star: :)
2014-05-11T11:17:13Z capella-da-star: https://i.cloudup.com/7wvIvKHw8W-3000x3000.png
2014-05-11T11:17:40Z stassats`: it looks more like "kill all the robots"
2014-05-11T11:18:17Z capella-da-star: haha. No It’s a robot inside the Ironman’s HUD
2014-05-11T11:19:32Z jebes: morning all
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2014-05-11T11:20:01Z loke_erc: capella-da-star: do realise that Lisp is not a magic AI tool. If you're unabel to write the program in, say, Python, you won't be able to do it in Lisp. Lisp is, after all, just a programming language and runtime environemnt. Mind you, it's an extremely _good_ programming language and runtime envrionment but any lisp programmer would be able to write his program in any language, although it may take 10 times as long and be a much less
2014-05-11T11:20:01Z loke_erc: pleasurable experience.
2014-05-11T11:20:30Z jebes: python has import skynet though...
2014-05-11T11:21:22Z capella-da-star: loke_erc: Yes, I understand that. But I want to do something interesting while learning LISP.
2014-05-11T11:21:36Z stassats`: first lesson, spell it Lisp
2014-05-11T11:22:43Z loke_erc: capella-da-star: That's fine. As long as you understand it. I'd hate it if you didn't experience Lisp because you were disappointed that it wasn't magic :-)
2014-05-11T11:24:00Z capella-da-star: Nope, I am inexerienced but not that naive. :P Any language old/new/obscure it only meant to serve as a mean.
2014-05-11T11:24:08Z capella-da-star: *is
2014-05-11T11:24:27Z stassats`: wrong, lisp is a cult
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2014-05-11T11:25:27Z Shinmera: Lisp underground
2014-05-11T11:25:30Z ck_: minion: chant
2014-05-11T11:25:30Z minion: MORE LIKE KILL
2014-05-11T11:25:52Z stassats`: minion didn't take that logo well
2014-05-11T11:25:52Z capella-da-star: Okay. This channel is very interesting. I like it here :)
2014-05-11T11:26:13Z JuanDaugherty: don't be deceived it can get nasty
2014-05-11T11:26:40Z JuanDaugherty: we're trynna suck you in right now
2014-05-11T11:26:46Z capella-da-star: Okay, that logo is just a first draft. Don’t take it too seriously. This is the first time I used photoshop ;)
2014-05-11T11:28:19Z hitecnologys: Woah, throw this phophothop thing away!
2014-05-11T11:28:27Z capella-da-star: I don’t want to appear like a fanboy, but would love to follow some of your LISP hackers on any OSS forum like Github/bitbucket etc. to read your code and learn good practises.
2014-05-11T11:28:36Z capella-da-star: *you
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2014-05-11T11:35:33Z ck_: We issue one (1) demerit for still writing Lisp in all caps.
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2014-05-11T11:36:31Z ck_: for still writing 'Lisp'*. But if your sources are all caps as well, that would mean a second demerit. There _are_ rules!
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2014-05-11T11:39:06Z JuanDaugherty: pfft
2014-05-11T11:39:08Z loke_erc: ck_: And placing closing parens on a line of its own: a hell of a lot of demerits
2014-05-11T11:39:38Z JuanDaugherty deplores parochial lang ghettos and their rules
2014-05-11T11:40:23Z ck_: I couldn't find how to denote sarcasm, so I left that as an excercise for the reader.. but if I need to say it: I was joking.
2014-05-11T11:41:28Z capella-da-star: Okay, point noted.
2014-05-11T11:41:57Z loke_erc: ck_: You may have been joking, but what you said was still true :-)
2014-05-11T11:42:11Z ck_: the best of both worlds.
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2014-05-11T12:08:22Z BabyBoo: (if (eq flag 0) (print "ok")) works great but when i dot (if (eq flag 0) <4 lines which works fine alose> ) doesnt work
2014-05-11T12:08:38Z BabyBoo: (if (eq flag 0) (print "ok")) works great but when i dot (if (eq flag 0) <4 lines which works fine> ) doesnt work
2014-05-11T12:08:41Z stassats`: correct
2014-05-11T12:08:55Z BabyBoo: correct? why?
2014-05-11T12:09:09Z H4ns: BabyBoo: why are you still using eq?
2014-05-11T12:09:15Z stassats`: that's how IF works
2014-05-11T12:09:18Z BabyBoo: this time eq is what i need
2014-05-11T12:09:31Z stassats`: no, eq is wrong here
2014-05-11T12:09:36Z BabyBoo: :S
2014-05-11T12:10:26Z hitecnologys: clhs =
2014-05-11T12:10:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq_sle.htm
2014-05-11T12:10:27Z H4ns: BabyBoo: in common lisp, nil is false and non-nil is true.  if your "flag" is a flag, then why do you put an integer into it?
2014-05-11T12:10:53Z BabyBoo: flag is a variable
2014-05-11T12:11:13Z H4ns: BabyBoo: yeah.  the name seems to indicate that it is a variable that contains some boolean value.
2014-05-11T12:11:24Z ggole likes zerop
2014-05-11T12:11:41Z BabyBoo: True
2014-05-11T12:11:42Z H4ns: zerop is awesome if one deals with quantities.
2014-05-11T12:11:56Z BabyBoo: But 20 minutes earlier the exact same code worked
2014-05-11T12:11:57Z BabyBoo: i dont know
2014-05-11T12:12:39Z BabyBoo: whats if's problem stassats`?
2014-05-11T12:12:58Z stassats`: if never works with four forms
2014-05-11T12:13:05Z hitecnologys: BabyBoo: I think you're using numbers in a wrong way. 0 and 1 both represent "true" in Lisp. You might want to switch to NIL and T and throw away your comparison operation.
2014-05-11T12:13:10Z BabyBoo: is there any way to fix this?
2014-05-11T12:13:17Z stassats`: use cond
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2014-05-11T12:13:23Z hitecnologys: Or PROGN.
2014-05-11T12:13:28Z ggole: Or when?
2014-05-11T12:13:31Z ggole: (If it fits.)
2014-05-11T12:13:36Z stassats`: just don't use progn
2014-05-11T12:13:40Z BabyBoo: hitecnologys: i need flag to take 3 values 0,1,3 so True False doesnt work for me
2014-05-11T12:13:49Z hitecnologys: BabyBoo: then use symbols.
2014-05-11T12:13:53Z BabyBoo: stassats` i am gonna search for cond thank you
2014-05-11T12:13:54Z hitecnologys: stassats`: why not?
2014-05-11T12:13:55Z stassats`: (case flag (0 ...) (1 ...))
2014-05-11T12:14:05Z stassats`: hitecnologys: because i say so
2014-05-11T12:14:18Z BabyBoo: stassats` where ... is the body?
2014-05-11T12:14:27Z H4ns: BabyBoo: in common lisp, it is common to use symbols instead of magic numbers to indicate states or enumerations.
2014-05-11T12:14:31Z hitecnologys: stassats`: ah, I see.
2014-05-11T12:14:31Z stassats`: where ... is whatever you want it to be
2014-05-11T12:14:41Z BabyBoo: thanks
2014-05-11T12:14:43Z H4ns: hitecnologys: progn: don't use it unless in macro expansions.
2014-05-11T12:14:47Z H4ns: hitecnologys: i say so, too.
2014-05-11T12:15:53Z BabyBoo: stassats` works great, thank you, thank you all
2014-05-11T12:16:02Z hitecnologys: H4ns: hmm, OK, never though of that.
2014-05-11T12:16:06Z BabyBoo: i will search for symbols also :)
2014-05-11T12:16:27Z nyef: There's nothing quite like seeing an error in the debugger "CASE FAILURE: 13 is not one of (0 1 2 3 5 7 9 12 14 16 17 19)" and wondering what's going on.
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2014-05-11T12:18:10Z jebes: and one can use ecase to match symbols instead of case, which is for numbers
2014-05-11T12:18:20Z stassats`: what?
2014-05-11T12:18:31Z jebes: case is to numbers as ecase is to symbols
2014-05-11T12:18:38Z H4ns: jebes: lolnope
2014-05-11T12:18:55Z hitecnologys: jebes: wrong.
2014-05-11T12:19:15Z hitecnologys: jebes: ECASE just throws errors sometimes.
2014-05-11T12:19:22Z jebes: oh... so it does
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2014-05-11T12:20:36Z jebes: case works with symbols anyways
2014-05-11T12:21:05Z BabyBoo: Whel, case it seem like it goes inside every case ony by one for me :S
2014-05-11T12:21:11Z jebes: oh..
2014-05-11T12:21:20Z H4ns: jebes: case works with any datatype, but it is useful only if eql can be used to compare the values.
2014-05-11T12:21:59Z ggole: It should take :test argument. :(
2014-05-11T12:22:06Z H4ns: jebes: as does ecase, fwiw
2014-05-11T12:22:33Z hitecnologys: ggole: SWITCH from alexandria does that.
2014-05-11T12:23:37Z ggole: Alexandria gets a lot right.
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2014-05-11T12:31:52Z jebes: is sbcl-internals.cliki.net down?
2014-05-11T12:32:42Z jebes: it isn't responding to pings
2014-05-11T12:32:46Z stassats`: yes
2014-05-11T12:32:52Z nyef: Yeah, it's been gone for a while.
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2014-05-11T12:36:33Z Krystof: jebes: is there anything in particular you're interested in?
2014-05-11T12:39:29Z jebes: still just VOP's
2014-05-11T12:40:05Z jebes: i'm interested in using sbcl's assembler/assemblet/whatever so I don't have to roll my own... I may just use the one movits implements...
2014-05-11T12:40:10Z jebes: movitz*
2014-05-11T12:40:48Z nyef: If you're just interested in abusing the assembler, and not in VOPs /per se/, I believe that pkhuong had a recent article in which he did exactly that.
2014-05-11T12:41:22Z jebes: where he implemented a VM for a forth dialect thing?
2014-05-11T12:41:28Z nyef: That'd be the one.
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2014-05-11T12:58:53Z BabyBoo: Any help with case statement?
2014-05-11T12:59:06Z BabyBoo: I setq flag 0
2014-05-11T12:59:29Z BabyBoo: And i want to check if its 0 to run some code, if its 1 run some else
2014-05-11T12:59:31Z BabyBoo: etv
2014-05-11T12:59:33Z BabyBoo: etc
2014-05-11T13:00:01Z stassats`: (case flag (0 run-some-code) ((1 2 3) run-some-other-code) (t fall-through))
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2014-05-11T13:01:42Z jebes: looks fine to me....
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2014-05-11T13:04:57Z jebes: oh, stasssats` wrote the code... oops.
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2014-05-11T13:13:21Z BabyBoo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142490
2014-05-11T13:13:25Z BabyBoo: why this doesnt work?
2014-05-11T13:13:37Z stassats`: holy indentation batman
2014-05-11T13:14:03Z stassats`: minion: advice on work?
2014-05-11T13:14:03Z minion: #11940: You said `It doesn't work'.  The next violation will be punished by death.
2014-05-11T13:14:09Z stassats`: minion: advice on working?
2014-05-11T13:14:09Z minion: #11941: Of course it doesn't work!  That's because you don't know what you are doing!
2014-05-11T13:14:21Z stassats`: minion: advice on working?
2014-05-11T13:14:22Z minion: #11952: In my experience that is a bad strategy, because the people who ask such questions are the ones who paste the answer into their program without understanding it and then complain that it `does not work'.
2014-05-11T13:14:44Z stassats`: not the ones i wanted
2014-05-11T13:15:45Z nyef: Might help to have the advice DB source bookmarked, and just use the advice number.
2014-05-11T13:16:03Z stassats`: i have it in the source tree
2014-05-11T13:16:18Z nyef: So call it by number?
2014-05-11T13:16:24Z BabyBoo: (defun menu ()
2014-05-11T13:16:24Z BabyBoo: (case flag
2014-05-11T13:16:24Z BabyBoo: (0
2014-05-11T13:16:24Z BabyBoo: (print "1")
2014-05-11T13:16:24Z BabyBoo: )
2014-05-11T13:16:24Z BabyBoo: (1
2014-05-11T13:16:24Z BabyBoo: (print "1"))
2014-05-11T13:16:25Z BabyBoo: (2 (print "3"))
2014-05-11T13:16:25Z BabyBoo: )
2014-05-11T13:16:26Z BabyBoo: )
2014-05-11T13:16:29Z stassats`: don't paste here!
2014-05-11T13:16:32Z BabyBoo: soooz
2014-05-11T13:16:40Z stassats`: minion: advice 11902
2014-05-11T13:16:40Z minion: You said it didn't work, but you didn't say what it would have done if it *had* worked.
2014-05-11T13:16:49Z BabyBoo: minion: paste
2014-05-11T13:16:49Z minion: paste: lisppaste: lisppaste is an IRC bot that runs under the nickname "lisppaste" and can be used (only for the #lisp IRC channel!) at http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp - or http://paste.lisp.org/ for other destinations
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2014-05-11T13:16:56Z BabyBoo: minion: advice on paste
2014-05-11T13:16:56Z minion: #11952: In my experience that is a bad strategy, because the people who ask such questions are the ones who paste the answer into their program without understanding it and then complain that it `does not work'.
2014-05-11T13:17:09Z nyef waits for the inevitable.
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2014-05-11T13:18:47Z jebes: >tfw just compiled sbcl and deleted it
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2014-05-11T13:19:06Z stassats`: that's how Buddhists do it
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2014-05-11T13:31:20Z BabyBoo: (if (equalp board '#(M M M - L L L)) (print "HELLO") (setq flag 2))  I have this if statements which prints HELLO even if board isnt equalp to '#(M M M - L L L)
2014-05-11T13:31:58Z pjb: BabyBoo: You know, it's not because (eq board '(M M M - L L L)) won't cut your arm off (as long as you don't put that in a robot's software), that you are forbidden to read the manual for the operator EQ.  Or any other of the 978 symbols in CL, even if they won't cut your arm off either.
2014-05-11T13:31:58Z BabyBoo: Can u spot the mistake?
2014-05-11T13:32:49Z pjb: BabyBoo: and for equalp, you should rather paste a real REPL log because it's just impossible.
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2014-05-11T13:33:33Z stassats`: BabyBoo: it can't print hello if it's not equalp
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2014-05-11T13:34:14Z BabyBoo: but when i check in the listener just the command (equalp board '#(M M M - L L L)) it returns NIL
2014-05-11T13:34:19Z pjb: You may try: (if (equalp board '#(M M M - L L L)) (print (list board "HELLO")) (setq flag 2))
2014-05-11T13:35:09Z theos: what happened the good ol' format?
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2014-05-11T13:35:31Z pjb: theos: while debugging print is nicer, since it returns its first argument.
2014-05-11T13:35:58Z theos: pjb i see
2014-05-11T13:36:13Z stassats`: BabyBoo: that means board has a different value
2014-05-11T13:36:17Z BabyBoo: pjb: still printing Hello while board isnt M M M - L L L
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2014-05-11T13:36:36Z pjb: Show us the REPL dribble!
2014-05-11T13:36:45Z theos: what is board btw?
2014-05-11T13:36: